My friend is branching into AoS, and asked me to give it a try, so i'm going to. I am a competitive 40k player. However, I view this more as beer & pretzels, i will not be playing competitively in AoS.
Could use some help understanding what is going on in this game. I know there's soup to some degree. For instance, Beastclaw Raiders and Orruks are chaos, so you can bring them in the same army.
He's going to play Sigmar Marines. So, that's out for me. And, i would probably avoid the "Order" group so we don't have mirror matches when we play (those suck). Although the fish elves look neat.
I'm not looking for overall power rankings, or trying to pick the most powerful faction. But i would like to avoid the "Grey Knights" of Sigmar (total garbage), or the "Sisters of Battle" of Sigmar (outdated model lines). I would also want to avoid the legacy fantasy stuff entirely, considering i have heard that it is going to be eliminated from matched play (at least in 40k, no one ever plays outside of matched play, even for the most casual of casual games).
Things I like:
Big dragons & monsters Spells Fighting in melee New plastic models Round bases
Big dragons & monsters
Spells
Fighting in melee
New plastic models
Round bases
This would lean me towards Destruction, Ironjaws specifically as well to be honest. Other alternative is also Deamons (less new), but you could benefit from using them in 40K if you really wanted or AoS doesn't work out for you.
I also think that if you play competitively in 40K you will get a taste for the competitive AoS play and realise its a wholeee other ball game. Very fun and hard to master, despite its *simple outlook!
Kanluwen wrote: Orruks and Beastclaw Raiders are Destruction.
Chaos is anything that has extra, mutant-y bits.
Ironjawz aren't a bad option given your criteria. There's even a Warscroll Battalion that incorporates Beastclaw Raiders stuff in there IIRC.
Oh, right. Duh, my bad. Chaos is essentially the same as in 40k.
What about these fish elves?
In general, if they build cities and resist Chaos and have a pulse? They'll be Order.
Idoneth are Order, same as Scourge Privateers(raiders and beasttamers), Daughters of Khaine(crazed Witch Aelf cultists following the "old ways" of BLOODBLOODBLOOD!...now with Medusae and Harpies!), and Darkling Covens(Dark Elf Sorceresses, Executioners/Black Guard, Warriors--the males are apparently kept under a magical 'thrall' to the Sorceress Covens).
So AOS is still using formations then? At least that makes list building easier. Pick a formation and build to it.
They are, but sometimes they just aren't worth it thanks to the fact that they've boosted the points costs of them fairly heavily.
With that said, if you like the looks of the Ironjawz?
Their Start Collecting is freaking amazing. $85 gets you Gore-Gruntas(boar riders!), rebadged Black Orruks, and the Ironjawz Drummer.
Gore-Gruntas are $79 by themselves.
You also have the Ironjawz Warband they released for Skirmish. It gets you a Shaman(gorgeous and fun model to build+paint), a set of Brutes(biggerer Orruks with some sweet, sweet weapons), and half of a box of Black Orruks.
pm713 wrote: Formations in AoS cost points. Generally too many. I've found it way better to use whatever you want.
Oh wow. So essentially it's open play?
No there are limits depending on your points. Generally it's a required amount of battleline and a limit on leaders and monsters. Plus you have to stay within your faction for some things like faction benefits but I'm not massively up to date on those.
The warscroll builder does a decent job of showing the limitations and requirements at the point levels.
Not really. Most people tend to use the Matched Play rules and points.
Older books(Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers, and Seraphon) don't have their points in them. You'd have to snag a copy of the General's Handbook for those.
Newer books do have the points in them, along with rules for how to generate for "Path to Glory" warbands.
I'll try to divide your questions up and answer them as best I as I can.
1) What is going on / how do allegiances work?
I'm assuming matched play and access to the Generals Handbook (which is very important).
In AoS when you build an army the first thing you need to do is pick an allegiance. This can be done in one of two ways. You can pick a Grand Alliance (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction) and gain access to a wide variety of models and abilities. Or you can take one of the focused allegiances (from either the Generals Handbook or one of the many Battletomes) and have your choices greatly restricted, but gain access to more powerful special rules and abilities for those models.
Once you've picked an allegiance you'll look for all the units with matching keywords (on the unit's warscroll at the bottom; units are also lumped into their own allegiance sections in the Generals Handbook or in their own Battletomes) and build your army from that pool. In Age of Sigmar you build the equivalent of a single detachment with unit allotments and ally points based on the size of the game you play. Allies are heavily restricted and listed on the faction breakdown. Any reference to Battleline units you see are the equivalent to Troops in 40K and Heroes are the rough equivalent of H.Q..
2) Order is a huge pool of widely disparate factions. Unless you both go Grand Alliance Order and have similar playstyles you should be fine. Most of the order factions have widely varying battle methodologies and lore. Just a couple of examples: The Idoneth are soul-thieves that fight with a peculiar rhythm, the Daughters of Khaine are cold blooded murderers that storm across the battlefield at alarming speed, and the Kharadron Overlords are self interested traders that utilize transports and massed guns to win their battles. That contrasts immensely with the heroic themes of the SCEs.
3) Stick to allegiances with books. Generally speaking if it has a Battletome you are safe. Most factions balance well against one another. Although friends don't let friends play Tzeentch.
4) As for you? I think if you like the Idoneth they are definitely worth looking into. Beastclaw Raiders and Death do monsters well (depending on your preferred flavor of monster). SCEs, some older models in General Alliance Order, Death, and Ironjawz all have dragons or general dragon equivalents.
I like the Orruks. And their start collecting box looks pretty sweet.
We're going to have a playtest game. My buddy bought both start collectings (because, you know, disposable income) so i'll get to play the Orks before going down that road.
In general I like Cavalry and mobility for my fighters. I've found that is generally what i enjoy. I hate feeling slow on the battlefield, even if i have to give up some staying power to achieve that.
I think i'm getting it in regards to the warscrolls.
Essentially you don't have to pick formations, but you are rewarded for specializing. I'm not clear exactly what those bonuses are, but i suppose that's where you actually need to buy the content (as in, where the rubber meets the road).
It seems like the fish elves aren't out yet. That's a bummer. I am doing research on them but a release date isn't confirmed?
Idoneth are soon.
The book, the Eidolon, the sword-wielding slaves, and the Soul-Warden character(dude with the octopus) go up for preorder on Saturday.
The rest will be staggered out over the next few weeks.
The "content" is in the army books, just so you know. That with the fluff makes them a fairly good value.
Maw-Krushas coupled with Gore-Gruntas are a nasty bit of "Waaagh!".
Also worth mentioning that the Start Collectings all have formations in there that do not get pointed because the point of them is specifically for narrative/open play and for learning with them.
Marmatag wrote: Hmm, if there's a start collecting that would be nice.
You'd be waiting quite some time for that.
Start Collecting sets never come out with the faction, they come out months if not a year or so later.
I'm expecting Idoneth to get one around Christmas like the Overlords did.
I would probably start with them. Orruks are neat, too, but it seems like they're fairly limited in model variety overall. Ironjawz have like 5 total units.
Marmatag wrote: Well, regardless, they are really cool looking.
I would probably start with them. Orruks are neat, too, but it seems like they're fairly limited in model variety overall. Ironjawz have like 5 total units.
Yeeah...that's because most of the armies that launched early on in the lifespan of AoS were fairly small. A lot of the big differences will come from Allegiance abilities and things like that(think army traits like we're seeing in 40k right now).
Ironjawz has their Warchanter, the Shaman, Megaboss on Foot and Megaboss on Maw-Krusha or Gordrakk. So 5 heroes(2 building from the same kit--Maw Krusha).
Then they have the Brutes, Gore-Gruntas, and 'Ardboys(the Black Orks).
Grand total of 8 profiles--but with a few options on some of them. The Megaboss on Maw-Krusha has a few different weapons he can take and the Brutes and 'Ardboys have similar.
For example on units of the Brutes? You can either take the unit with "Jagged Gore-Hackas"(two handed weapons) or the unit with "Two Brute Choppas".
It's the same unit either way, both of them can have 1 in 5 models armed with a "massive Gore-Choppa"(a giiiiiiiiiiant two handed weapon). The Brute Boss(leader) of the unit can take a Brute Klaw and Brute Smasha or a Brute Choppa.
With AoS, there's generally going to be fewer units in the earlier armies but those armies will have a few options of toys to play with that will be across the whole unit.
Idoneth look to have similar amounts of variety but added to that they have a bit just more thrown into them compared to the Ironjawz because Ironjawz were introduced alongside Beastclaw Raiders and they actually had a few things added during the campaign books where it was formations of the two together or with Giants added in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh dayum, something I hadn't even considered:
Maggotkin of Nurgle!
You've got the Maggoth Lords(the guys mounted on the beasties), the Glottkin(a trio of brothers who act as a single unit), the Blightkings(the mortals riding on the Plague Drones), etc.
They've got a very interesting mechanic in regards to the whole "Corruption" thing--and if your friend is starting Stormcast, that Blight War box is a killer setup for the both of you since Daemons aren't set off in their own book like they are in 40k.
Big dragons & monsters
Spells
Fighting in melee
New plastic models
Round bases
Sounds like you could field a good death army with that as well. The've got big zombie dragons and mortarchs on dread abyssals and lots of plastic kits (noticeable exception being the vampire knights/characters). Most of their range is fairly new (from 2012, except for zombies, fel bats, bat swarms) with additions from end times.
They have some of the largest (like actually model size) "elite shock infantry" in the form of Morghasts, have lots of magic support from necromancers and vampires (although the latter are all metal/finecast).
They are definitely no longer the "Grey knights" of Warhammer (pains me to say this, because I main GKs in 40k and agree with you).
So yeah, it's different, more boney aesthetic, but Legions of Nagash does tick all of these boxes)
I was actually looking at Nagash, too. What does a Nagash army look like? I have a Tyranid army as my main army in 40k, so i do prefer things with a more normal model count.
Orruks are appealing in that sense, if you've got a Maw-Krusha, a couple Warchanters, and some troops, you should be solid, without selling your soul to Duncan.
Marmatag wrote: I was actually looking at Nagash, too. What does a Nagash army look like? I have a Tyranid army as my main army in 40k, so i do prefer things with a more normal model count.
It's going to be fairly...interesting from the way I've seen it. You can go crazy or you can make a relatively 'elite' force.
Orruks are appealing in that sense, if you've got a Maw-Krusha, a couple Warchanters, and some troops, you should be solid, without selling your soul to Duncan.
That's actually why I suggested the Skirmish and Start Collecting sets. Both of them are really good deals. SC Ironjawz is: $79 for the Gore-Gruntas $30 for the Warchanter Can't accurately price the Ardboys since they come 15 to a box for $53 and this set gives you 10(the minimum unit size)
The Warband is: $33 for the Shaman $50 for the Brutes Again, can't price the Ardboys since they come 15 to a box for $53 and this set gives you 5.
For Skirmish/Path to Glory, the 5 Ardboys isn't a huge deal since they'll be high points and absolute terrors for most armies to deal with.
$65 and $85 for those two boxes gives you: 5 Brutes A Warchanter A Shaman 3 Gore-Gruntas and A unit of 15 Ardboys
Priced out individually? $245 USD for that stuff. Buying them with those two bundles? $150
Saves you $95--enough for a second Start Collecting if you want more Gore-Gruntas(which I cannot stress enough: you do. ) OR for a Megaboss on foot and a second box of Brutes by themselves.
Marmatag wrote: I was actually looking at Nagash, too. What does a Nagash army look like? I have a Tyranid army as my main army in 40k, so i do prefer things with a more normal model count.
Most Nagash armies tend to be him, 2 blocks of skeletons infantry (40 man blocks with spears), a necromancer and an elite block (some use Grave guard for this, although I prefer morghasts Archai/harbingers with halberds).
That gets you 2k points. Not a lot of wiggle room to scale down in points if you go for such a specialised army however.
A Legions of Nagash force can take a myriad of forms due to multiple allegiances being built into the book itself. It pulls from the entirety of Death (as it currently stands) barring the Flesh Eater Courts. The force can generally do it all. Monsters, hordes, cavalry, mages, elite units like Vampires and Morghasts, etc. With each allegiance specializing in its own form of warfare.
On the tabletop the army feels robust. A lot like Necrons really. They just keep coming back.
So, I figured i'd follow up since some times has gone by -
I made the decision to go down the Legions of Nagash road.
I feel it translates well from 40k, and the playstyle that works for me there. Screen big units and use a host of threats to attack / hold objectives. And casting spells is what it's all about. Really enjoy that Nagash has a billion spells to pick from, which is a wonderful refresher from 40k where i have only 6 no matter how kickass your psyker is supposed to be.
I got the Start Collecting: Skeleton Horde, and Nagash himself. I don't know how often i'll actually get to play Nagash, but it is far and away the coolest model i've seen by GW. I should have a picture up by July of him LOL. I also bought the Battletome, which i found to be a very high quality book overall. (anyone else like that new book smell? Reminds me of opening old school magic cards).
I was very surprised to see that the units in this start collecting box can be configured in quite a few different ways.
For instance, I have several decisions to make in my very immediate future:
1. What hero to take? I will probably go with Arkhan here. The box seems to lack mortal wounds, and his unique spell has some real potential. Also, his hat is neat. To use a reddit meme... change my mind! If i'm going purely on the "looks cool" factor Arkhan seems the way to go. And you can't go wrong with cool.
2. Hexwraiths or Black Knights? At first glance I cannot envision a scenario where Black Knights are superior to Hexwraiths. Like how is this even a choice? Am i missing something with black knights?
3. The skeletons are my little basic bitch buddies, In reality i see leaning towards grave guard. I doubt they can be built this way, but hey, never hurts to ask. I also have sepulchural guard from Shadespire. Is there a way to leverage these guys, too? They're decent models in and of themselves.
Other small notes- i'm having trouble figuring out how many spells exactly these guys can cast per turn. It looks like Nagash knows 3 of your choice and can cast quite a few. Arkhan knows the ones described, and also +1 of his choice. But not sure how many he can actually cast.
Does locus of the Shyish work with Nagash and Arkhan regardless of my "faction" (Nagash, Sacrament of <insert here>, etc)?
Sepulchral Guard do have rules for AoS...but the Shadespire stuff tends to be questionable in AoS proper.
Personally, I'm a fan of Black Knights since you can run them as part of a fighty Deathrattle force while Hexwraiths are Nighthaunt and can't get bonus modifiers to their saves(or negatives!).
Yeah, Arkhan is in the warscroll. I was just surprised it could be built as all 3.
The deathrattle barrow lords does seem like a good deal - but i'm in no major hurry to grow this force. I almost picked up this as a starting box honestly. It was Arkhan that drove the decision to go with the Skeleton Horde.
My problem with Black knights is the lack of rend... My buddy runs sigmar and always has a 2+ save with rerollable 1s. Gross!
Marmatag wrote: Yeah, Arkhan is in the warscroll. I was just surprised it could be built as all 3.
Remember that if there's no feasible way for the kit to be split out; they don't do it.
The deathrattle barrow lords does seem like a good deal - but i'm in no major hurry to grow this force. I almost picked up this as a starting box honestly. It was Arkhan that drove the decision to go with the Skeleton Horde.
My problem with Black knights is the lack of rend... My buddy runs sigmar and always has a 2+ save with rerollable 1s. Gross!
Base better save (4+ passive, versus 5+)
Base better weapon (rend -1)
Can deal mortal wounds (flying over a unit, and on hit)
Both are summonable, meaning i can heal / restore them to life.
At the end of the day I feel like skeletons and grave guard will be the chaff I need. Just at first glance.
This could be totally stupid but i'll give my general plan.
Nagash screened by grave guards and skeletons. I would like 1 big squad of grave guard that can be restored by Nagash, and possibly a necromancer. perhaps i'll still run Arkhan at 2000 but i doubt it with Nagash hanging around.
Then i'll have Morghasts, and Hexwraiths to be my elite vanguard. Hopefully i can control the board and force people to fight on my terms. Rather than using Nagash as purely a mortal wound engine, i'll use him to buff my models (- wound rolls, etc) and debuff my opponent.
If you're playing tournament level AOS (and anyone running 2+ saves with re-rollable 1s is running tournament level AOS) then yeah you're going to have to be very particular about your models just like in 40k.
auticus wrote: If you're playing tournament level AOS (and anyone running 2+ saves with re-rollable 1s is running tournament level AOS) then yeah you're going to have to be very particular about your models just like in 40k.
So, this isn't tournament level AoS.
This just a few of us trying it out for the first time. Maybe he lucked into a competitive build, but my friend is no power gamer.
I'm hoping there will be bay area narrative groups. Because, that is how i'd like to play it. Hopefully there's a group that will allow me to play with Nagash, too. I don't know if he's super competitive or what, he just looks cool.
auticus wrote: If you're playing tournament level AOS (and anyone running 2+ saves with re-rollable 1s is running tournament level AOS) then yeah you're going to have to be very particular about your models just like in 40k.
So, this isn't tournament level AoS.
This just a few of us trying it out for the first time. Maybe he lucked into a competitive build, but my friend is no power gamer.
I'm hoping there will be bay area narrative groups. Because, that is how i'd like to play it. Hopefully there's a group that will allow me to play with Nagash, too. I don't know if he's super competitive or what, he just looks cool.
What's he running, out of curiosity? I gather it's Stormcast--but it's weird if he's got 2+ saves with rerolls.
Marmatag wrote: There's an HQ unit that has a command ability to improve a save by 1.
Guy with a lantern and maybe a Gryph-Hound, right? That's the Lord-Castellant. He has no Command Ability on his warscroll. If he's your General, he'd only have 'Inspiring Presence' available to him.
For him--it's not a Command Ability--it's just a thing he gets to do and it has a 12" range.
Not picking on you or saying "Gah! Noob!". Just making sure you know who he is and what he does for the future.
The Drake riders already have a 3+ rerolling 1s, and if they get a 6, they heal a wound.
So with that command ability, they have a 2+ rerolling 1s, and a save roll of 6 heals them.
Okay so we're clear, the Dracoth Riders only get that perk when they're within 12" of him. He has a lower move value than they do so it becomes a case of "can you separate the two".
He gives them a +1 to their save rolls(this is important to remember as there are terrain features and bits and bobs that can come into play that reduce the save rolls as well). Additionally, the healing ability is "until your next hero phase, each time you make a save roll of 7 or more for that unit, one model in the unit heals a wound.
Meaning, if you bring AP0 weapons against them, it's more likely you will heal them, then damage them.
I'm not qualified to do the math here for saves and the like, but with stuff like Dracoths and other beatstick units--their points become very limiting. Especially when they're not Battleline units.
IF you go after the Lord-Castellant, that regaining of Wounds is gone.
IF you hit them with anything that can reduce their armor save or their save rolls--that regaining of Wounds is gone.
IF you hit them with anything that inflicts multiple damage per Wound--that regaining of Wounds is reduced in efficiency.
Black Knights, because of the fact that if they charge they get +1 to their Wound rolls(3+ to hit 3+ to Wound), with 11 attacks in a bare minimum unit of 5 doing 2 damage per successful Wound...the math might not be great for them initially but it can get swung in their favor thanks to you just reviving models into the unit. Hell--if you take a Wight King on Skeletal Steed(easy enough to convert/kitbash a good looking one!), his Command Ability can give them another attack with their Lance whomping it up to 17 attacks on 3/3 with 2 damage.
Even with +1 to save rolls and rerolling 1s, that becomes a bit harsh. And that doesn't include the steeds themselves!
Yes, you're right about all that stuff regarding the Celestant. I forget the names and terms. This was my first game, after all, so noob definitely applies! I proudly wear the title in regards to AOS.
Okay - so, they have to be within 12" - that makes sense. We were playing smaller games with the models, and I found that our entire armies were within 12" of everything at all times. I was playing his Ironjawz. And, it is a 7+ save, but with the +1 that becomes a 6 if no rend.
With no AP, and a 2+ rerolling 1s, you have a 1/36 chance to fail the save & deal damage, and 7/36 chance to pass the save and heal a wound. In other words, it never becomes efficient with Rend0 weapons unless they're dealing high damage, essentially enough to kill one outright.
This is why the Hexwraiths jumped out to me.
The Black Knights charge, and with their 17 attacks expect to deal 0.42 damage. Meanwhile, they expect to heal 1.47 wounds.
Meanwhile, Hexwraiths never allow him to heal. Because they have -1 rend. And, if they move over the unit on the charge, and are at a full man unit of 5, then on that charge they should deal an expected 3.10 wounds (counting mortals and failed saves). Also with the ability to move over and through targets, they have a better chance to assassinate the leader.
Now, I am super new here. And, it is entirely possible that in a take-all-comers scenario the Hexwraiths are worse. But in this case, I think they are a clear winner.
That said, do the Black Knights offer some kind of benefit that i'm not seeing, for instance, a formation? I'm still not clear on how battlelines work, and why some units count as a battleline and others do not.
Meanwhile, Hexwraiths never allow him to heal. Because they have -1 rend. And, if they move over the unit on the charge, and are at a full man unit of 5, then on that charge they should deal an expected 3.10 wounds (counting mortals and failed saves). Also with the ability to move over and through targets, they have a better chance to assassinate the leader.
Aren't there spells allowing for things to gain Fly?
Now, I am super new here. And, it is entirely possible that in a take-all-comers scenario the Hexwraiths are worse. But in this case, I think they are a clear winner.
That said, do the Black Knights offer some kind of benefit that i'm not seeing, for instance, a formation?
You'd have to check your book for that.
I'm still not clear on how battlelines work, and why some units count as a battleline and others do not.
A certain percentage of your army has to consist of Battleline units to be considered 'legal' for Matched Play.
Some units are "Battleline"(meaning they're just always going to be that), others are "Battleline If..." and become Battleline when certain conditions are met(Allegiance Idoneth DeepkinandAkhelian King as general, for an example.).
Also i'm playing around with the Warscroll builder. I don't understand why models that should be a battleline for Grand host of Nagash aren't counting towards my battleline requirement, despite having it selected.
My book is at home, so i can't immediately check these formations and rules just yet.
Marmatag wrote: Also i'm playing around with the Warscroll builder. I don't understand why models that should be a battleline for Grand host of Nagash aren't counting towards my battleline requirement, despite having it selected.
My book is at home, so i can't immediately check these formations and rules just yet.
You have to have the right Allegiance and Army and in some cases the right General.
Marmatag wrote: Also i'm playing around with the Warscroll builder. I don't understand why models that should be a battleline for Grand host of Nagash aren't counting towards my battleline requirement, despite having it selected.
My book is at home, so i can't immediately check these formations and rules just yet.
'Tis just a small thing that happens with some units in the warscroll builder. Morghast's just don't seem to count as battleline even if you click the right allegiances and make Nagash your general.
In regards to the Black Knights they are part of two formations whilst hexwraiths are not present in any, these are-
The First Cohort - Gives a guaranteed 3 wounds back on Nagash' return units ability and gives Morghasts a Look out Sir ability for Nagash.
Deathmarch - Gives 1 model back a turn per unit near the Wight king + extra movement
Black Knights in my eyes are ok, they're cheaper then the Wraiths and with a little support can take a little beating and their charge isn't all that bad, decent for objective taking.
Hexwraiths whilst far cooler do cost quite a lot, and with the recent change to stop them gaining any modifiers got a little bit less survivability but this is offset by their beefy buff to damage, with their ability to fly they can also become quite a nuisance in a back-line.
Both are fine for casual stuff, just depends what points you have going spare, obviously in the situation of a 2+ rerollable, 6 = healing save the Black Knights are thoroughly outclassed, but I don't think that they should be the ones to tackle that threat.
Luckily I believe the saddles can be interchanged on the kit as it sits on a little pin on the horse.
For a 2k with Nagash- 3 drops
Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Necromancer
Nagash
5 x Grave Guard
40 x Skeleton Warriors
5 x Grave Guard
2 x Morghast Archai
6 x Spirit Hosts
The First Cohort
Another variation I've seen is focusing on the graveguard making them the hammer...and the anvil, with morghasts fighting over them an an additional hammer.
Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead
Necromancer
Necromancer
10 x Skeleton Warriors
10 x Skeleton Warriors
30 x Grave Guard
2 x Morghast Archai
The First Cohort
That makes sense regarding the warscroll builder. I was really struggling to figure out why it wouldn't work. Can you help me understand what it takes to get the legion command traits? Does your entire army have to be the same specific keyword? Kind of like, 100% grand host of nagash to get the nagash benefits? Or could it be grand host units + some deathrattle units, like skeletons and black knights?
Interchangeable models is music to my ears, really.
The start collecting has basically 1 model that might deal with those drakes, and that's the hero. Which is fine. He's a beast in his own right. The way i dealt with this before I was throwing a Megaboss into them.
Black Knights with an extra damage on the charge will outperform Hexwraiths against less durable targets. I can see the wisdom in using them, in a general sense.
Marmatag wrote: That makes sense regarding the warscroll builder. I was really struggling to figure out why it wouldn't work. Can you help me understand what it takes to get the legion command traits? Does your entire army have to be the same specific keyword? Kind of like, 100% grand host of nagash to get the nagash benefits? Or could it be grand host units + some deathrattle units, like skeletons and black knights?
Interchangeable models is music to my ears, really.
The start collecting has basically 1 model that might deal with those drakes, and that's the hero. Which is fine. He's a beast in his own right. The way i dealt with this before I was throwing a Megaboss into them.
Black Knights with an extra damage on the charge will outperform Hexwraiths against less durable targets. I can see the wisdom in using them, in a general sense.
If you feel up to magnetising the Mortarch just magnetise the saddle and then you've got all 3 ready to go.
The Legions of Nagash and infact all of the different Legions (Night, Sacrament, Blood and Grand Host) is quite literally every death model, except old warscrolls such as Vampire on Abyssal Terror, the entirety of Flesh Eater Courts and until they update it the Forge World Mourngul. If you wish to ally in Flesh Eaters you can use up to 20% of your total points (400 at 2000 points) to get them in whilst maintaining your allegiance.
To get the command traits/relics for each individual legion you must choose which one you want to go for first off as this can affect your battle-line units. Then all that is left is to fill it up, luckily as mentioned above this can contain pretty much every death unit currently.
The only things that change per legion is Battle-line units, Relics, Command Traits and possibly your general.
Your Battlelines are-
Death/Legion of Blood/Sacrament/Night- Zombies, Skeletons, Dire Wolves
Nighthaunt- Spirit Hosts, Hex Wraiths
Soulblight- Blood Knights
Grand Host of Nagash- Morghasts (If Nagash is general), Graveguard, Skeletons, Dire Wolves, Zombies.
Flesh Eaters- Ghouls, Flayers/Horrors (Relevant Courtier as general)
Okay - that is super helpful - thank you! Since there is significant overlap, I can find myself with quite a few choices just by bringing Nagash and a few squads of skeletons + grave guards.
The only thing is that if i wanted to go Night Haunt, Hex Wraiths would offer me some extra efficiency in that I could optionally drop a unit of skeletons. Although, I'm not convinced that would be a wise decision, screening units & objective swarmers apply in generally everything.
I can't imagine running Nagash and not making him my general.
Any overall advice when looking at the relics & command traits? I do not have them committed to memory, now that i have a better understanding of how easily i can get any of these i'll have to take a more careful read through at home.
My immediate reaction would be to take things that protect Nagash since he is such a heavy points investment.
I think I will magnetize the characters in their respective saddles. That would be very easy, and i have some thin magnets that will do the trick nicely! To be completely honest double sided tape would work fine, too. This is one model where even though the cost is not back breaking, the time spent painting it is significant and it must be pre-painted in portions, making magnetization a worthy endeavor. The only thing is - would i ever find myself running more than one of those 3 heroes in a given list? I can't imagine doing that, considering that would be the entire list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, can someone explain how spells work?
I see that Nagash, and others, can cast far more spells than the number of spells that they know.
In an example, at his best, Nagash can cast an extra 5 spells. But, he only knows a few spells. I see that if you go with a Grand Host you can pick 3 extra spells for him.
It seems strange though as this is also true for Arkhan. He can cast extra spells.
Can someone explain this? Am i reading it right, that they only know what is listed on their datasheet? I also don't see a base number of spells per wizard.
Finally, if i use the ability to refill squads that have lost models, does this count for reinforcement points? I don't see this clearly spelled out in my codex. So if i use Nagash's ability to restore dead models to a squad, does that cost points? I also have a command ability to recreate a slain squad with him. I'm assuming this costs points? Or something? Not entirely clear.
the only thing is that if i wanted to go Night Haunt, Hex Wraiths would offer me some extra efficiency in that I could optionally drop a unit of skeletons. Although, I'm not convinced that would be a wise decision, screening units & objective swarmers apply in generally everything.
I know when I posted a list above I put spirit hosts in a legion list as they would help your problem of tackling the 2+ save stormcast, as they barely do any wounds that aren't mortal unlike the wraiths so they won't proc the heal as much.
But right now I think nighthaunt are a force best played by themselves as they currently need the herald and deepstrike to be effective and he's not in the legion's of nagash, nor is their behemoth the mourngul.
Regardless the hexeraiths and spirits both have their place in a. Casual list running legions. And my opinion on this may change as without allies they have no access to summoning/replacing currently. Theyre also rumoured to have an update coming up.
Spoiler:
can't imagine running Nagash and not making him my general.
Any overall advice when looking at the relics & command traits? I do not have them committed to memory, now that i have a better understanding of how easily i can get any of these i'll have to take a more careful read through at home.
My immediate reaction would be to take things that protect Nagash since he is such a heavy points investment
If you run the Grand host of Nagash amd include Nagash in your army he MUST be your general. He doesn't have to be if you run generic grand allegiance death but I can't see why you'd want to, there is no benefit.
With the lists I posted 2 posts ago the formation lets you pass wounds to morghasts nearby nagash this is a good formation to keep him alove, with the benefit of them being great in general.
You get one command ability (if using nagash as general ignore this as he has his own)
You get one command trait for free, however named characters cannot have these so if nagash is your general you lose the ability to take one. This mainly applies if you're playing pure death rattle as there is some good stuff in there for them.
Similarly named characters cannot have artifacts, so this will be dropped onto your spare leader units I.e necromancer , vampire or Wight king. If you have many skeletons in your list I'd reccomend the diadem on a necromancer which gives skeletons or graveguard two 6+ fnp against any type of wounds! Or if you want to try mess over a specific hero the hourglass which is ranged mortal wounds could be god I your situation to stop the +1 to save stuff from the stormcast guy.
Spoiler:
think I will magnetize the characters in their respective saddles. That would be very easy, and i have some thin magnets that will do the trick nicely! To be completely honest double sided tape would work fine, too. This is one model where even though the cost is not back breaking, the time spent painting it is significant and it must be pre-painted in portions, making magnetization a worthy endeavor. The only thing is - would i ever find myself running more than one of those 3 heroes in a given list? I can't imagine doing that, considering that would be the entire list.
In 2k probably not, although for casual 2 together would probably do fine in any combination , you'd struggle to fit one (probably Arkhan) alongside nagash let alone 2.
Spoiler:
can someone explain how spells work?
I see that Nagash, and others, can cast far more spells than the number of spells that they know.
In an example, at his best, Nagash can cast an extra 5 spells. But, he only knows a few spells. I see that if you go with a Grand Host you can pick 3 extra spells for him.
It seems strange though as this is also true for Arkhan. He can cast extra spells.
Can someone explain this? Am i reading it right, that they only know what is listed on their datasheet? I also don't see a base number of spells per wizard.
Nagash knows 4 spells base, his unique 2, the 2 everybody has (bolt, shield) and has access to 3 spells from legions which puts him at 7 spells. However nagash gains every death wizards on the battlefield spells for himself also which puts him at way above 8 the second you take another wizard.
Best in mind you cant cast the same spell more then once except in open play so you could either use the wizard or nagash to cast a spell dependant on situation.
I can't remember about Arkhan right now but I'm sire he has access to a good few as hes a pretty good caster.
Wizards always know shield and bolt and their unique spell on their data sheet however if in one of the legions all death wizards gain another spell from the appropriate table (death if necromancer, vampire if.....vampire)
Spoiler:
, if i use the ability to refill squads that have lost models, does this count for reinforcement points? I don't see this clearly spelled out in my codex. So if i use Nagash's ability to restore dead models to a squad, does that cost points? I also have a command ability to recreate a slain squad with him. I'm assuming this costs points? Or something? Not entirely clear.
No, this does not cost anything in the case of new death. You cannot return them above starting size either.
The exception is flesh eater courts units (Ab ghoul king, one courtier?) who can still use old style summoning and therefore adhere to the old rules, however most? courtiers function in the same sense as the new nagash summoning rules.
Does Nagash get that +3 if you are a part of Grand Host, or is that always a +3? I don't see why i wouldn't run him as a part of grand host.
The ability to fully revive an eliminated skeleton squad at no points seems pretty cool.
So even Arcane Bolt can't be cast more than once? In 40k you can cast smite numerous times, it just becomes more difficult to succeed.
Is it safe to assume that every wizard can cast a total of base 3 spells?
Is there any specific benefit to making Nagash my general?
Also, modeling update:
I've started building Arkhan/Neferrata/Carstein (forget all the spellings!). I've realized that much of the dragon is easier to paint if it is painted before it is built by in large. I've glued some of it together into pieces, and base coated them in white. I can already tell this is the right call. This guy would be insanely difficult to paint if you built him first.
Nagash only gets the +3 spells in grand host I believe I don't have the book to and right now but would always get at least +1 from death.
Arcane bolt is indeed the same and can't be cast more then once which limits mortal wounds a little more.
Unless it says otherwise like Arkhan and Nagash all wizards cast only one spell a turn
I doubt you will ever see Nagash outside of the grand host, and you will always want him as your general his command ability gives rerolls of 1 to hit and saves to your entire army! Considering he can have a 2+ save easily rerolling ones and a 4+ against mortal wounds he can be quite durable.
Make sure to double check the gravesites rules regarding the summoning of whole units , that one may cost points I csnt quite recall the exact wording on that portion of it
Moogypies wrote: Nagash only gets the +3 spells in grand host I believe I don't have the book to and right now but would always get at least +1 from death.
Arcane bolt is indeed the same and can't be cast more then once which limits mortal wounds a little more.
Unless it says otherwise like Arkhan and Nagash all wizards cast only one spell a turn
I doubt you will ever see Nagash outside of the grand host, and you will always want him as your general his command ability gives rerolls of 1 to hit and saves to your entire army! Considering he can have a 2+ save easily rerolling ones and a 4+ against mortal wounds he can be quite durable.
Make sure to double check the gravesites rules regarding the summoning of whole units , that one may cost points I csnt quite recall the exact wording on that portion of it
Okay yeah, Gravesites setting up a whole new unit would cost reinforcement points. Whereas restoring slain models to a living squad is free.
Ah okay, so only the general can use command abilities. That makes sense. And, that is better than the artefacts and bonuses from command traits.
I can see why people would want larger squads of skeletons and other bodies on the table. Once they're eliminated, you can't bring them back, but as long as one model hangs on, you can restore quite a bit. Nagash brings back 3 wounds to 5 squads in Grand Host... if you had another guy doing that like Arkhan that's expected 5 per squad per turn. Good luck killing skeletons with that going on.
Larger units of skeletons are also cheaper, and when you run the probabiliity math, their bonuses for being so large is grossly more than the amount of poiints you pay for them.
To fully revive a model you must roll above or equal to their wounds on the d3 I.e you need 2 to revive a hexwraiths or 3 to revive a spirit host on a single roll . No bringing back a 1 wound host.
Necromancers are an easy way to get more repopulation going on as is staying by gravesites
auticus wrote: Larger units of skeletons are also cheaper, and when you run the probabiliity math, their bonuses for being so large is grossly more than the amount of poiints you pay for them.
This also gives a real reason to take the 2" spears... I kind of like this.
Although, I'm not sure i'll run another horde style army with skeletons. I'll probably have 1 unit of skeletons, 1 unit of grave guards, and 1 unit of Morghasts for my battle lines.
auticus wrote: Larger units of skeletons are also cheaper, and when you run the probabiliity math, their bonuses for being so large is grossly more than the amount of poiints you pay for them.
This also gives a real reason to take the 2" spears... I kind of like this.
Although, I'm not sure i'll run another horde style army with skeletons. I'll probably have 1 unit of skeletons, 1 unit of grave guards, and 1 unit of Morghasts for my battle lines.
Basic skellies are usually always given the spear option
With those unit choices its probably worth fitting in another deathrattle unit and taking "The First Cohort" Battalion which automatically gives Nagash a result of 3 wounds restored per unit he selects.
Unfortunately deathrattle units are usually more suited towards hordes.
The discount from the skeletons gives them a minor edge in probability calculations in terms of their efficiency point to point.
You can succeed with grave guard, its just that while they are giving the brainless steep discount to skeletons that they are giving, the skeletons defensive efficiency is higher, giving them a higher grade overall if thats what you are building toward.
I'm not sure what calculation you're doing to get those numbers, but I think I get the idea behind it.
1. The most points-efficient grouping of 4 squads of skeletons is as one big unit of 40, because the last squad receives a 50% discount.
2. The most attacks per skeleton come when the 4 groups of skeletons are in one big unit, as this raises the attack count of all the skeletons.
Having played Tyranids for some time, I have run Hormagants and Termagants in blobs of 30. Even with a 6" pile in and a 6" consolidate with Hormagants, as well as 8" of movement, it is immensely difficult to get all of the Hormagants in range to fight.
You do save 40 points, but it also comes at a cost - you have to spend 240 points before you can realize this discount. Further, the scope of the skeleton squad is limited in that it must move and remain in coherency as one gigantic unit. Finally, abilities that restore summonable units per turn are restricted to units, so the potential healing per round is reduced in effectiveness.
I see myself more likely to run 2x Squads of 20. The primary focus of a unit like this, for me, is to (a) control objectives and (b) employ general area denial principles, and (c) act as a tarpit. With 2 squads of 20 i can control 2 objectives far more easily, i can deny more board area, and i can tarpit more units, while also healing double the skeletons per turn. Lastly, 2 squads of 20 fill out 2x battleline requirements, rather than 1 for x40.
Of course, I'm still a total AOS newb, and this could be off base. I just don't see myself winning with volumes of dice like this. Hormagants are amazingly effective at dying, preventing action, and holding objectives. I feel the same principle applies here.
Marmatag wrote: I'm not sure what calculation you're doing to get those numbers, but I think I get the idea behind it.
1. The most points-efficient grouping of 4 squads of skeletons is as one big unit of 40, because the last squad receives a 50% discount.
2. The most attacks per skeleton come when the 4 groups of skeletons are in one big unit, as this raises the attack count of all the skeletons.
Having played Tyranids for some time, I have run Hormagants and Termagants in blobs of 30. Even with a 6" pile in and a 6" consolidate with Hormagants, as well as 8" of movement, it is immensely difficult to get all of the Hormagants in range to fight.
You do save 40 points, but it also comes at a cost - you have to spend 240 points before you can realize this discount. Further, the scope of the skeleton squad is limited in that it must move and remain in coherency as one gigantic unit. Finally, abilities that restore summonable units per turn are restricted to units, so the potential healing per round is reduced in effectiveness.
I see myself more likely to run 2x Squads of 20. The primary focus of a unit like this, for me, is to (a) control objectives and (b) employ general area denial principles, and (c) act as a tarpit. With 2 squads of 20 i can control 2 objectives far more easily, i can deny more board area, and i can tarpit more units, while also healing double the skeletons per turn. Lastly, 2 squads of 20 fill out 2x battleline requirements, rather than 1 for x40.
Of course, I'm still a total AOS newb, and this could be off base. I just don't see myself winning with volumes of dice like this. Hormagants are amazingly effective at dying, preventing action, and holding objectives. I feel the same principle applies here.
A single 40 man Skeleton unit is found widely in most semi competitive death lists, however if i'm to throw another unit into the mix to consider;-
Dire Wolves are currently enjoying much play due to them having 2 wounds a piece, coming in blocks of 5 with a decent movement stat and being cheap to boot. These are you objective snatchers and fast screens currently, and would certainly fill up that battleline happily along with the Skeletons.
The problem being right now the Grand Host is very very numbers and battle of attrition based, you're going to want those large blobs to keep repopulating. Right now you may think 20 skeletons will survive, but when you come up against stronger ranged units or they focus a group, 20 Skeletons will turn to dust pretty quick and then they can't be repopulated at all. Not to mention to not forget about battleshock with smaller units, this obviously hurts us less with Bravery 10, and if you take Nagash him giving immunity, but strong units like Skyfires will wipe a block of 40 skeletons a turn easy if given the chance, let alone 20.
Okay, so the scale by which people deal damage in this game is a bit different from 40k. The thought of killing 40 models in 1 turn takes a significant amount of firepower... It is certainly not something I would consider commonplace.
Do you use grave sites to deep strike your Skeletons? Or just set them up with the knowledge they'll get pasted?
Marmatag wrote: Okay, so the scale by which people deal damage in this game is a bit different from 40k. The thought of killing 40 models in 1 turn takes a significant amount of firepower... It is certainly not something I would consider commonplace.
Do you use grave sites to deep strike your Skeletons? Or just set them up with the knowledge they'll get pasted?
Its not the most commonplace but depends on what your local area uses, hopefully you wont have that many Tzeentch players Outside of those not much is likely to mulch your stuff that quick without significant focus, especially if theyre not building competitive and those 2+save rerolling stormcast where just co-incidence.
It depends on battleplan, opponent and army.
For Grand Host of Nagash I'd usually just deploy them, as it has no real fast heroes to get to an advance gravesite to pull them up.
Legion of Night,and Blood there's a good case to put stuff in the grave. Sacrament could go either way.
I'm finishing up an app that lets you write up battle reports and include the statistics. It breaks down all the probabilities. I use it to load balance the games I write.
The numbers you are seeing are average number of wounds that can be inflicted per turn and average number of wounds the warscroll can soak up before being removed combined with their efficiency (how many points they cost vs what they can do... a model that is awesome but costs a lot is not as efficient as a model that is awesome and also severely undercost) which comes up with the total score I used.
In regards to the Sigmar guy - i would assume not a lot of research was done. I imagine he looked at his codex and identified all of the ways he can deal mortal wounds and be ultra survivable.. and is pasting a list together with that in mind.
I would expect his army to have a high number of mortal wounds. Which is why I also am fine playing with skeletons... they're the perfect targets for mortal wounds.
Essentially the Harbingers and Arkhan do targeted heavy lifting. Nagash just casts spells and heals things. My understanding is that i can summon the Harbingers and get a 3d6 charge out of "deep strike."
Arkhan is probably not that smart of a choice, I could bring a mortis engine and a necromancer instead, but, i already have him, so i'll play him a bit.
Marmatag wrote: In regards to the Sigmar guy - i would assume not a lot of research was done. I imagine he looked at his codex and identified all of the ways he can deal mortal wounds and be ultra survivable.. and is pasting a list together with that in mind.
I would expect his army to have a high number of mortal wounds. Which is why I also am fine playing with skeletons... they're the perfect targets for mortal wounds.
Essentially the Harbingers and Arkhan do targeted heavy lifting. Nagash just casts spells and heals things. My understanding is that i can summon the Harbingers and get a 3d6 charge out of "deep strike."
Arkhan is probably not that smart of a choice, I could bring a mortis engine and a necromancer instead, but, i already have him, so i'll play him a bit.
Looks good to me, but you WILL want the necromancers unique spell for a block of 30 grave guard getting to pile in twice and attack is huge with them , especially with the great blades. You also then can use your artifact instead of wasting it by not using it and give those grave guard more saves!
See the twitch tv game yesterday where they minced the idoneth big leader and his pals in one turn
Keeping it close to yours I'd reccomend -
Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead
Necromancer
30 x Grave Guard
- Great Wight Blades
10 x Dire Wolves
2 x Morghast Harbingers
Nagash can abuse his giant positives to casting to get so many different spells off and dont forget he can take vampire ones too not just death!
Your necromancer gives pile in and attack to your gg , you have a block of wolves to take objectives quick and Arkhan can do is distraction tactics amd curse of years to take care of those pesky cavalry.
That necromancer power is amazing. For some reason I thought Nagash could take it! But you're right being able to pile in and go choppy is really good in the psychic phase.
How do you protect the necromancer from ranged attacks? Can't anyone target anything in Sigmar regardless of wounds? (I mean, i know LOS blocking terrain is a thing of course but just wondering if that's something you can rely on in AOS).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
auticus wrote: If you're playing even semi-competitively then yeah... spamming mortal wounds is pretty much one of the holy cornerstones of AOS.
Well i'm okay with him having a "competitive list," i will just need to adapt a bit. Nagash, Arkhan can spit out decent mortal wounds per turn.
Like me, he likes the big cool models. He'll be running a Stardrake. So any unit i bring with less than 6 wounds or a way to save mortal wounds will definitely be dead in 2 hero phases.
Are Fenrisian wolves an acceptable "counts-as" for dire wolves?
Also do you bother with a hornblower in grave guard squads? seems like overkill, and i wouldn't want to lose the attack with a great wight blade.
Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?
auticus wrote: I could be mistaken but I don't think you actually lose the attack of the hornblower. He is assumed to also be carrying the two handed weapon.
That would make life a lot easier, from a modeling perspective.
skoffs wrote: Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?
The Nighthaunt and Grave Guard boxes I linked earlier were designed with Skirmish and Allies rules in mind. There's also the Flesh Eaters Court "Nighthaunt Feast" box.
I can't really give you 100% advice on their playstyle in Skirmish, but look at any of the Start Collectings or the $65 boxes. Those would give you a good leg up.
skoffs wrote: Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?
The Nighthaunt and Grave Guard boxes I linked earlier were designed with Skirmish and Allies rules in mind. There's also the Flesh Eaters Court "Nighthaunt Feast" box.
I can't really give you 100% advice on their playstyle in Skirmish, but look at any of the Start Collectings or the $65 boxes. Those would give you a good leg up.
Yes, it was your earlier post that brought me to this thread.
The thing is, I don't know what in those boxes are actually of much use in Skirmish.
Like, for all I know Hex Wraiths and Black Knights are a bad idea to take in a Skirmish list.
Tried the search function but it didn't really give me anything along the lines of what I'd been hoping for (a Death centeric Skirmish tactics/list building guide)
skoffs wrote: Been following this thread for a bit now. It's had some pretty good info for someone looking to get into the game.
Got interested when I saw there was a Skirmish version... thing is, though, it's turning out to be pretty hard to find good info on Death Skirmish tactics (what's good, what to avoid, example lists, etc.)
Forgive me for slightly derailing the thread, but if someone wants to dip their toe in the shallow pool of Skirmish, how does one go about "Getting Started... with newer (Death) models"?
The Nighthaunt and Grave Guard boxes I linked earlier were designed with Skirmish and Allies rules in mind. There's also the Flesh Eaters Court "Nighthaunt Feast" box.
I can't really give you 100% advice on their playstyle in Skirmish, but look at any of the Start Collectings or the $65 boxes. Those would give you a good leg up.
Yes, it was your earlier post that brought me to this thread.
The thing is, I don't know what in those boxes are actually of much use in Skirmish.
Like, for all I know Hex Wraiths and Black Knights are a bad idea to take in a Skirmish list.
Tried the search function but it didn't really give me anything along the lines of what I'd been hoping for (a Death centeric Skirmish tactics/list building guide)
I guess the better question is are you playing one-off Skirmish games or slow-grow Skirmish?
With one-off Skirmish games, you might have some issues with some of this stuff--with slow-grow Skirmish, these things add up. It's important to remember that Skirmish caps out when/how some stuff is available. Like there's no giant monsters, there's nothing too crazy out there. There's lots of randomness in that regards, where things like the Lord-Aquilor for the Vanguard side of Stormcast can't be taken---despite being literally the most sensible character for a Skirmish game!
I've found skirmish doesn't make sense at lower renown levels. you'll have like 3 models total, so if someone has a way to reliably deal mortal wounds that's the game. This was my experience with Skirmish playing my friend's models.
Arcane bolt in and of itself becomes a really strong ability to have, because you'll be able to blast 1 of 3-4 models off of the table per turn, at range.
If you are going with a start collecting, make sure you look at what he mentioned - the 65$ boxes. The 85$ boxes will have models that are either not allowed or are way too costly for skirmish, such as Arkhan.
I'm not convinced skirmish is the best way to start AoS, being 100% honest.
I would agree with you. The skirmish rules are very lacking and as you saw, the min/max issues with the game at higher levels are exasperated at the skirmish level.
Kanluwen wrote: I will always suggest Path to Glory over Skirmish at this point.
Path to Glory is not for new players.
As a new player, I went out and bought a start collecting box, only to find out that named characters such as Arkhan are not allowed, and the force i'm building is incompatible with the format.
People with more robust collections will be able to get more miles out of it.
Depends on your environment. I just brought in a solid dozen new players through path to glory last year, but they all went in having been briefed that named characters aren't part of path to glory.
Some of them have named models anyway for when we went beyond Path to Glory but it was very successful.
Kanluwen wrote: I will always suggest Path to Glory over Skirmish at this point.
Path to Glory is not for new players.
As a new player, I went out and bought a start collecting box, only to find out that named characters such as Arkhan are not allowed, and the force i'm building is incompatible with the format.
People with more robust collections will be able to get more miles out of it.
I can't help but disagree. A well-run Path to Glory, with a more realistic Blood and Might threshold is a great thing--especially if you run it like the recent Malignant Portents campaign where you have set days for gaming and give people time to get forces together.
Also it's worth mentioning that in the back of the book, there's a thing for "Start Collecting! Warbands" which specifically calls out Arkhan the Black as relevant. There's also a specific callout that you don't have to roll for the units you add in. Page 18 states that you can choose from any of your tables or roll for them.
Yes, I know, I told the guy running our local path to glory about those warbands and he said, "nope, no named characters." This was a bad experience with a guy who has sort of taken over running anything campaign related, and is kind of a jerk about it. There were 4 of us interested, and he decided on this format and restrictions without any discussion. I'm a bit salty about it since I wanted to play. Oh well. I'm not buying another box just because he arbitrarily decided on a restriction.
Marmatag wrote: Yes, I know, I told the guy running our local path to glory about those warbands and he said, "nope, no named characters." This was a bad experience with a guy who has sort of taken over running anything campaign related, and is kind of a jerk about it. There were 4 of us interested, and he decided on this format and restrictions without any discussion. I'm a bit salty about it since I wanted to play. Oh well. I'm not buying another box just because he arbitrarily decided on a restriction.
I mean, you wouldn't have had to buy another box if you didn't want to.
You could have just grabbed the Wight King blister for $14.75, the price for him hasn't changed despite the packaging and round base. Genuinely surprised me on that one. Or the Necromancer!
I can understand being annoyed about it, but your situation was a relatively easy fix.
Skirmish involves having to actually set up your own point values for a lot of stuff that isn't included but should have been, and recognizing that the book's values are best described as "lacking" for starting games. GW seemingly gives themselves the Skirmish Warband Leader at 0 points, it's the only way any of their stuff makes sense there.
Yeah, i won't dive into it deeper, it was more how things were handled, and some of the general requests that were ignored (not having scheduled play days, a missing narrative component, etc). Anyway, Auticus seems like he runs well built and thought out campaigns. Ultimately it depends on who is running it, and in what capacity are they participating.
Regardless, the general advice when starting is "buy what you like." Especially when you're still learning the basics. That would be my advice to someone starting 40k.
Marmatag wrote: So, I figured i'd follow up since some times has gone by -
I made the decision to go down the Legions of Nagash road.
I feel it translates well from 40k, and the playstyle that works for me there. Screen big units and use a host of threats to attack / hold objectives. And casting spells is what it's all about. Really enjoy that Nagash has a billion spells to pick from, which is a wonderful refresher from 40k where i have only 6 no matter how kickass your psyker is supposed to be.
I got the Start Collecting: Skeleton Horde, and Nagash himself. I don't know how often i'll actually get to play Nagash, but it is far and away the coolest model i've seen by GW. I should have a picture up by July of him LOL. I also bought the Battletome, which i found to be a very high quality book overall. (anyone else like that new book smell? Reminds me of opening old school magic cards).
I was very surprised to see that the units in this start collecting box can be configured in quite a few different ways.
For instance, I have several decisions to make in my very immediate future:
1. What hero to take? I will probably go with Arkhan here. The box seems to lack mortal wounds, and his unique spell has some real potential. Also, his hat is neat. To use a reddit meme... change my mind! If i'm going purely on the "looks cool" factor Arkhan seems the way to go. And you can't go wrong with cool.
2. Hexwraiths or Black Knights? At first glance I cannot envision a scenario where Black Knights are superior to Hexwraiths. Like how is this even a choice? Am i missing something with black knights?
3. The skeletons are my little basic bitch buddies, In reality i see leaning towards grave guard. I doubt they can be built this way, but hey, never hurts to ask. I also have sepulchural guard from Shadespire. Is there a way to leverage these guys, too? They're decent models in and of themselves.
Other small notes- i'm having trouble figuring out how many spells exactly these guys can cast per turn. It looks like Nagash knows 3 of your choice and can cast quite a few. Arkhan knows the ones described, and also +1 of his choice. But not sure how many he can actually cast.
Does locus of the Shyish work with Nagash and Arkhan regardless of my "faction" (Nagash, Sacrament of <insert here>, etc)?
Thanks everyone.
It took me around 20 hours to paint Nagash. Maybe more. Well worth it when done, but I would never opt to paint that model again. It was tough. Good luck!!
I do, yeah. It’s actually my friend’s; I painted it for his store display cabinet. It’s basically dead-center (no pun intended) in the middle of his shop.
Marmatag wrote: That necromancer power is amazing. For some reason I thought Nagash could take it! But you're right being able to pile in and go choppy is really good in the psychic phase.
How do you protect the necromancer from ranged attacks? Can't anyone target anything in Sigmar regardless of wounds? (I mean, i know LOS blocking terrain is a thing of course but just wondering if that's something you can rely on in AOS).
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auticus wrote: If you're playing even semi-competitively then yeah... spamming mortal wounds is pretty much one of the holy cornerstones of AOS.
Well i'm okay with him having a "competitive list," i will just need to adapt a bit. Nagash, Arkhan can spit out decent mortal wounds per turn.
Like me, he likes the big cool models. He'll be running a Stardrake. So any unit i bring with less than 6 wounds or a way to save mortal wounds will definitely be dead in 2 hero phases.
Are Fenrisian wolves an acceptable "counts-as" for dire wolves?
Also do you bother with a hornblower in grave guard squads? seems like overkill, and i wouldn't want to lose the attack with a great wight blade.
You keep the necromancer huddled by skeletons or guard to defer his wounds onto them people usually take 2 for the case that one gets sniped.
No one would care about fenrisian wolves being dire as long as base sizes are similar/same.
Models with banners and instruments unless it specifies otherwise always have the se weapon as the squad.
For skirmish , I've found my spirit hosts do quite well usually due to the save, mortal wounds and amount of wounds however theyre direly slow.
If were showing nagash'es I only finished my one a couple days ago not as impressive as the one in the your aos projects though!
Those are still both really cool! I am not a good painted. I like painting, but i'm not good at it. I'm tempted to commission some of the work on Nagash.
I'm going to buy some fenrisian wolves (i've always wanted some of these, anyway, it's a good excuse to buy them) to be my dire wolves. What base size should they go on? I would imagine Fenrisian wolves are on 25mm round (hopefully not slotted).
I have to be careful. I'm in that stage where i'm super excited to play, but don't have the models built and painted. I'm going to take it a bit slow and make sure I don't buy a ton of stuff and create a huge painting backlog.
I should have Arkhan painted by this weekend, i'll put up some pictures when i'm done. I was in Texas this last weekend for vacation, so now i have some down time to work on him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also - can one of your three battlelines be summoned?
Automatically Appended Next Post: finally - i don't see a limitation in the Azyr roster builder for the number of hornblowers/standard bearers/seneschals in a 30 man grave guard squad.
I'm assuming it's 1 of each, but i set it to 10, and the roster still says its valid.
Thats because AOS is lol like that, where yes indeed all of your guys could be standard bearers if you wanted to (and in fact in a lot of cases you want them to)
Though unit champions it specifically states a single model.
auticus wrote: Thats because AOS is lol like that, where yes indeed all of your guys could be standard bearers if you wanted to (and in fact in a lot of cases you want them to)
Though unit champions it specifically states a single model.
Got it. I'll just run 1 in each squad of 10. i'm not out to be that guy
Dire wolves are currently on the old cavalry square bases , but assuming an update to their kit comes I'd guess they'd go onto the same bases as hexwraiths/black knights.
I'm guessing they'll FAQ the banners soon due to idoneth cheese if people really want to be that guy....to be fair I've almost never seen anyone use more then one banner
Moogypies wrote: Dire wolves are currently on the old cavalry square bases , but assuming an update to their kit comes I'd guess they'd go onto the same bases as hexwraiths/black knights.
Dire Wolves are on the cavalry rectangles, Fenrisian Wolves are on 40mm rounds.
I'd say you're looking at the 60x35mm oval, the one used for Skitarii with Transauranic Arquebi.
I'm guessing they'll FAQ the banners soon due to idoneth cheese if people really want to be that guy....to be fair I've almost never seen anyone use more then one banner
To be fair, Idoneth "cheese" is because they don't have Banners or Musicians or Champions for Thralls and Reavers.
The effects of the Banner and Champion are rolled together into the "Icon Bearer" instead.
What would be tournament acceptable? (Note: I will never play AoS in a real tournament, but I like to have what is considered standard, just because it avoids arguments).
Those bases also seem quite large for a wolf. Are there two wolves on the base itself?
I think i'll just put the wolves on their default bases. If it means i can't play in tournaments, whatever. Hopefully nobody thinks i'm trying to cheat the system by using different bases and models.
timetowaste85 wrote: Square bases are 100% okay in AoS. Anyone giving you a hard time is actually being an asshat and trying to cheat.
Sorry i'm referencing the 40mm round bases for Fenrisian Wolves. In place of Dire Wolves. So, it would be very easy to say that *I* would be the one trying to cheat, when in reality, i'm really not, and just like the Fenrisian wolves models.
Events all use base-to-base and many events even forbid squares now.
Because of that, even casual players that don't go to events will demand this in their pick up games. There's even a giant facebook tussle over forcing people to rebase older models onto the up to date bases (meaning if you had demons on 25mm bases you need to rebase them to 32 mm bases or you are "cheating").
Proceed with caution and ask around your playgroup first before committing...
auticus wrote: Lets also reveal the real real play world though.
Officially bases don't matter.
Unofficially officially they matter a lot.
Events all use base-to-base and many events even forbid squares now.
Because of that, even casual players that don't go to events will demand this in their pick up games. There's even a giant facebook tussle over forcing people to rebase older models onto the up to date bases (meaning if you had demons on 25mm bases you need to rebase them to 32 mm bases or you are "cheating").
Proceed with caution and ask around your playgroup first before committing...
I find that personally irritating as hell, GW officially says bases dont matter. the rules are clear, folks should not be having a hissy about it. especially when some kits give you a square base (I buy rounds for all mine out of personal preference though)
I agree with you. In my events I am very clear that you can use whatever bases came with the model and barring that as long as you aren't trying to douche out I don't care what your bases are (we do base to base contact).
But oh boy does that topic generate a lot of heat.
People that want a standard only one way to play hate houserules and hate that bases aren't standardized and get very emotional when alternate ways are being played from a standard.
Something something squares give an advantage something something if you use square bases then congratulations on winning because you are cheating something something.
Basically getting bent out of shape because you can get a couple more models in base contact with squares that you can't with rounds so that breaks the game entirely.
Well as I put it in that thread and any other thread where someone says that, the only people I've met that care that much over a few mm "advantage" are usually the same people that measure their willy by their win/loss record, and I don't play with those people anyway.
THey also don't consider the disadvantages. Like plaguebearers being on 25s... they are a tank unit that can't contact as many enemy to tank on smaller bases.
I can't understand why people would play AoS competitively anyway.
Luckily the new releases have really drummed up interest out here that seems to be strictly casual/narrative. I'm seeing events pop up - single day style, like a tournament - but with a narrative focus. Hopefully it gains steam... although I haven't even assembled my stuff yet. Arkhan is still WIP.
Marmatag wrote: I can't understand why people would play AoS competitively anyway.
Luckily the new releases have really drummed up interest out here that seems to be strictly casual/narrative. I'm seeing events pop up - single day style, like a tournament - but with a narrative focus. Hopefully it gains steam... although I haven't even assembled my stuff yet. Arkhan is still WIP.
People will get competitive with anything, that's what we do.
On reddit a few weeks back I saw a gif of competitive tag. Honestly looked pretty fun but still.
Marmatag wrote: I can't understand why people would play AoS competitively anyway.
Luckily the new releases have really drummed up interest out here that seems to be strictly casual/narrative. I'm seeing events pop up - single day style, like a tournament - but with a narrative focus. Hopefully it gains steam... although I haven't even assembled my stuff yet. Arkhan is still WIP.
People will get competitive with anything, that's what we do.
On reddit a few weeks back I saw a gif of competitive tag. Honestly looked pretty fun but still.
Oh for sure. Just doesn't seem like a ruleset conducive to competitive play. But that's just me. I would also say in its current state 40k isn't really conducive to high competitive play, either, yet I play that in tournaments
Marmatag wrote: I can't understand why people would play AoS competitively anyway.
Luckily the new releases have really drummed up interest out here that seems to be strictly casual/narrative. I'm seeing events pop up - single day style, like a tournament - but with a narrative focus. Hopefully it gains steam... although I haven't even assembled my stuff yet. Arkhan is still WIP.
People will get competitive with anything, that's what we do.
On reddit a few weeks back I saw a gif of competitive tag. Honestly looked pretty fun but still.
Oh for sure. Just doesn't seem like a ruleset conducive to competitive play. But that's just me. I would also say in its current state 40k isn't really conducive to high competitive play, either, yet I play that in tournaments
Agreed
I feel like my few AoS games are the most relaxing games I've played, war-gaming-wise, and I don't see it as a super competitive game - and I like that about it.
Ugh, I need to really decide on a faction. Been eyeballing building up the bloodbound from the starter, but I don't want to paint flesh. Maybe I can do bronzed bodies... or just paint the tzeentch daemons I actually own already
I've always found flesh to be fairly easy. I'll post the bloodbound I painted for Shade spire later. You're probably a better painter than me, but i'm happy with how they turned out. Base, shade, heavy dry, light dry, I do skin in like 10 minutes.
As far as picking an army goes, Khorne stuff looks amazeballs in Sigmar. They have the best looking range for just your average models, in my opinion. I chose death because their heroes look badass, but the average skeleton is vastly inferior to anything Khorne in terms of aesthetic.
Model to model measuring is possibly the most painful, anti-fun and time consuming. You have models that can rarely ever attack rank and file due to how they sit on their base vs weapon length (archaon, maw crushas, etc...) and it also penalizes modelling.
Skimask Mohawk wrote: Model to model measuring is possibly the most painful, anti-fun and time consuming. You have models that can rarely ever attack rank and file due to how they sit on their base vs weapon length (archaon, maw crushas, etc...) and it also penalizes modelling.
Why is it so hard to use base to base measuring?
it was put in to make the transition easier on all us old neckbeards with warhammer armies to not have to change thousands of models to round bases.
I've never seen anyone use model to model except for the very beginning of AOS. Even with squares and rounds on the same table, base to base is preferred.
auticus wrote: Something something squares give an advantage something something if you use square bases then congratulations on winning because you are cheating something something.
Basically getting bent out of shape because you can get a couple more models in base contact with squares that you can't with rounds so that breaks the game entirely.
It's more to the effect of a whole extra 'rank' in places, on top of denying enemy attacks due to a smaller unit profile. Having smaller bases can actually impact a unit's effectiviness tremendously, and people would rather just say 'no round bases' than try to deal with some asshat mid game.
The people requiring round bases aren't to blame here, the people who abuse square ones are. If no one did that, no one would have a problem with them.
Although the vile TFG act offbase size abuse is done,banning square bases would kill AOS in my region. It is on life support as it is. not many players in my region are prepared to rebase there old fantasy armies.
And in the end it does not matter as long as gw does not say which model goes on which size base. otherwhise nothing is stopping anyone from taking larger/smaller bases except maybe some specific tournament rules which are not often made to "square" things out but mostly to address a couple of regional TFG's (not everywhere and always, but often IMHO )
I get that. If we had a TFG abusing squares like that I have a backup rule I put in place, which is "if you are using square bases then you have to give an extra .5 to your opponent as a form of grace mediation to compensate.
To date I have not had to implement that rule because the people in my group still using squares are not TFG and don't do that kind of thing in the first place.
We *did* have a TFG that both abused the old summoning AND modeled a lot of his models to be in the air 3" up so that most normal things that only had a 1" reach or even a 2" reach couldn't ever target his models, but he was removed from the group.
we still here (and we are a tiny,tiny group who game together often) use model to model. but yeah like others have said, this game is on life support and virtually any little thing could kill it. GW here is model to model RAW. As overall unpopular as the game is I am worried about too much houseruling driving what few players we can get away.
Regardless of what I said earlier about it not mattering for he base and “model to model”, my group measures from the base. I haven’t seen any abuse on bases though. And I updated SOME of my daemons to 32mm bases, but some are staying 25mm; Bloodletters and Plaguebearers are on 32mm, Horrors and Daemonettes are on 25mm. That just “feels” appropriate to me. If someone called me a donkey-cave because I only rebased BLs and PBs and not the other two lessers, I’d probably laugh at them. MAYBE an argument could be made for the Horrors to switch up. But daemonettes? No way. Then again, I prefer the way two banners look in a unit vs one banner. And that seems to ruffle some feathers on here, from what I’ve seen. So what do I know? Lol
Will have Arkhan painted up this week. He's really turning out actually fairly decent by my painting standards.
Also, I did some math. Curse of Years is not that impressive.
Essentially it is a slightly better arcane bolt on average (2.5 mortal wounds against big targets), and does a flat-out fatality about 1.4% of the time (against big targets).
auticus wrote: I have a tool that does all of that, its how I came up with the azyr comp point values
Neat!
Any limitations you're running into? I wouldn't mind collaborating on a project to scale things. Can make it as a web page, to help determine if two casual lists are in the same ball park in terms of overall effectiveness. I'll do all of the programming, and I can host it, too.
I was looking at my friend's upcoming list. He's got these guys - I think Retributors - that just by existing can deal 2D3 mortal wounds per turn. In fact I think everything in his list can deal mortal wounds.
Good thing i've got all these skeletons...
Also, any suggestions for a campaign with 2-4 people? There are a few of us... thinking of making a small story. There wouldn't be any focus on competitive, but would be focused more on thematic battles.
I was looking at my friend's upcoming list. He's got these guys - I think Retributors - that just by existing can deal 2D3 mortal wounds per turn. In fact I think everything in his list can deal mortal wounds.
Those are any of the Paladins(Retributor, Protector, Decimator) given a thing called a "Starsoul Mace". It has a 1" range and they cannot make any other attacks. They target an enemy unit within 1" and that unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.
2 in every 5 models in a Paladin unit can take Starsoul Maces.
Just so you know. Retributors still can deal Mortal Wounds without Starsoul Maces; any hit roll of 6 or more causes 2 Mortal Wounds(their Lightning Hammers are 2 damage).
I was looking at my friend's upcoming list. He's got these guys - I think Retributors - that just by existing can deal 2D3 mortal wounds per turn. In fact I think everything in his list can deal mortal wounds.
Those are any of the Paladins(Retributor, Protector, Decimator) given a thing called a "Starsoul Mace". It has a 1" range and they cannot make any other attacks. They target an enemy unit within 1" and that unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds. 2 in every 5 models in a Paladin unit can take Starsoul Maces.
Just so you know. Retributors still can deal Mortal Wounds without Starsoul Maces; any hit roll of 6 or more causes 2 Mortal Wounds(their Lightning Hammers are 2 damage).
Jesus.
So essentially it's 3 attacks for the sergeant, 2 for each of the ones wielding their normal weapons, and then 2D3 mortals.
So 7 attacks should expect a 6, coupled with the 2D3 mortals means these guys pump out 6 mortal wounds if they get in combat... and can spike all the way to 20 mortal wounds (unlikely, but hey, it is an upper bound).
Effectively i'll just have to rely on my chaff to hold this kind of stuff down while i potshot things with my pew pew pew lasers.
Or find a way to give them -1 to hit, so they can't physically roll a 6.
auticus wrote: I have a tool that does all of that, its how I came up with the azyr comp point values
Neat!
Any limitations you're running into? I wouldn't mind collaborating on a project to scale things. Can make it as a web page, to help determine if two casual lists are in the same ball park in terms of overall effectiveness. I'll do all of the programming, and I can host it, too.
I was looking at my friend's upcoming list. He's got these guys - I think Retributors - that just by existing can deal 2D3 mortal wounds per turn. In fact I think everything in his list can deal mortal wounds.
Good thing i've got all these skeletons...
Also, any suggestions for a campaign with 2-4 people? There are a few of us... thinking of making a small story. There wouldn't be any focus on competitive, but would be focused more on thematic battles.
Azyr Comp and Project Point Costs were the big fan-made point systems before the GHB other than the... can't remember the name system that GW actually used to create the GHB1 point costs. Both Azyr and PPC were more balanced than Matched Play is now.
auticus wrote: I have a tool that does all of that, its how I came up with the azyr comp point values
Neat!
Any limitations you're running into? I wouldn't mind collaborating on a project to scale things. Can make it as a web page, to help determine if two casual lists are in the same ball park in terms of overall effectiveness. I'll do all of the programming, and I can host it, too.
I was looking at my friend's upcoming list. He's got these guys - I think Retributors - that just by existing can deal 2D3 mortal wounds per turn. In fact I think everything in his list can deal mortal wounds.
Good thing i've got all these skeletons...
Also, any suggestions for a campaign with 2-4 people? There are a few of us... thinking of making a small story. There wouldn't be any focus on competitive, but would be focused more on thematic battles.
Its funny you mention that as well lol. I'm about 75% done with my app that does just this. You plug in two armies and it will show you their actual value compared to themselves. It also will let you isolate units and show target priorities for them. I do this for campaign purposes and it gives me a score and I tell people to build under that score. The competitive guys gnash their teeth at this and usually quit because they feel handicapping yourself is not competitive (no kidding, this is for a casual campaign not a tournament or practicing for adepticon) but the results I have gotten with it and the old azyr comp have been great and provided mostly close tgames.
The challenge are the utility points. Those being models that do a bunch of abstract things that you can't hammer down with math. My tool lets you plug in turn by turn what actually happened so in the end game you can see what those models were really worth in the game. Ex: if a model has weak attacks they will score low but if they have a spell that does D6 mortal wounds cast on a 6 and on top of that an ability that gives all models within 6" of them an extra attack, those are utility functions that are unreliable. You can't hardcode numbers for those, since you never know what they will affect... but if you log them during the game you can easily see just how powerful they are from game to game.
Retributors with 2 soul maces can do 2d3. A squad of 10 retributors can take 4 of those ... just sayin (though 4 is not as optimal as just taking 3, because rets do so much damage normally as well that taking the 4th mace actually lowers your damage curve)
And yes Retributors are disgusting. If you only see 10 of them in a 2000 pt game, call that lucky lol. 10 of them can wreck half your army if you don't know what to do... and if they are doing the alpha strike turn 1 charge garbage, I've seen 10 wreck 1500 points worth of enemy army because they hit insanely hard with other forms of mortal wounds as well and are hard to drop. Basically they are a high priority target to drop. In the early days of AOS the ret wrecking ball squad was one of the power builds. Its still pretty potent today but the stormcast have even more powergamey builds at their disposal that make the Ret Wrecking Ball build look like casual friday.
There are numerous options for campaign. Firestorm box is a great way to start just remove the condition where if you own the special territories you win (otherwise just remove all of the other 15 territories ssince no one will fight on those). I have Azyr Empires, though that iss very complicated and I need to finish my slimming of it down (you can get that on narrativewargaming.com). Then there's simply writing your own narrative and using existing scenarios to tell your stories.
Right now we're getting ready to launch our 2018 Malign Portents Narrative in June (one day 1000pt battle) and then push into the fall six week campaign with it. We carry over abilities from our path to glory to chain the story from year to year as well (though people start new forces and thats fine as well)
Speaking of - path to glory is mostly very good minus the legions of nagash book breaking it apart (leash that in and overall its fine)
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Azyr Comp and Project Point Costs were the big fan-made point systems before the GHB other than the... can't remember the name system that GW actually used to create the GHB1 point costs. Both Azyr and PPC were more balanced than Matched Play is now.
SCGT comp was the one that won. Largely because they are in the UK, and buddies with the developers (there are many pictures of them all drinking at the pub together and playing together on twitter and the instagramz.) The moment GW endorsed their tournaments and point structure was the actual day all of the other fan comps died, even before GHB 2016 dropped with "official points" because that became the tournament standard that the global community latched on to.
And yeah I miss the days of the fan comps because, not even counting the azyr one which of course I was most familiar with, the PPC and the others were also very good and the games were a lot more closer. SCGT comp was, much like current points, very loose with balance and I wasn't a giant fan of that. (I can deal with it, and have dealt with it... we even have the "Azyr Army Builder" now lolol my main isssues are with some of the core rules which I have already ranted about in other places)
Need to get me that app. Though I'm experienced enough to generally pick things out like that myself I'm still keen on anything that can help me improve that. It could also be really helpful to show new players.
Ditto on Path to Glory being good minus the legions of nagash charts that are wierdly put of line (I made a new set of charts for death to use for our leagues, can post that if you're interested). That said summoning will probably need to be reigned in as well to prevent super cheese (we do it as you get one summoning spell attempt a turn, and can only add one new unit to your army in a given game).
When I get the time to wrap it up I'll provide it as a community resource. I want to use it for analyzing battle reports to show actual power level for the points to highlight busted configurations vs casual and actually objectively put solid numbers on it.
Honestly restarting Azyr using GHB point scale as a 'this is what they SHOULD cost' is a decent idea IMO. It wouldn't really see use but it would be nice for the community to have. But still a lot of work for something that wouldn't get a lot of appreciation.
At any rate if you ever need help with battalion costs let me know. I know perfect balance would involve a multiplier on the units contained but let's be honest no one wants to do that when looking at a list. I could give different values for different size games though.
It's still worthwhile to confirm with your opponent whether you're going to be measuring from bases or models. If only because the conversation becomes much more awkward if it comes up mid-game when you realize you've each been doing it a different way!
My biggest issue with measuring from the base is you end up having people argue a model on a 4" high platform can't be hit by a 6" tall treelord ancient on the ground floor, even if the models themselves are physically touching.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Honestly restarting Azyr using GHB point scale as a 'this is what they SHOULD cost' is a decent idea IMO. It wouldn't really see use but it would be nice for the community to have. But still a lot of work for something that wouldn't get a lot of appreciation.
At any rate if you ever need help with battalion costs let me know. I know perfect balance would involve a multiplier on the units contained but let's be honest no one wants to do that when looking at a list. I could give different values for different size games though.
I went down that road a little bit in 2016 for a campaign. I got shouted down at my local store by the competitive guys that didn't like their power builds shut down because they knew their stuff was undercost, but to them thats the point of playing and gittin gud at GW games, playing with the undercost stuff. Additionally... no one wants a secondary point system around because there is a strong adherence to "official".
It is as you said and as you well know a ton of work and really no fruit to bear so thats why I'm probably not revisiting my azyr stuff anymore. However the game analysis piece I think could be very useful because it will show you actual objective values if you keep track of all the variables during the game and show you exaclty what the actual costs were compared to the gw costs, and over time you could build a database for that collecting bigger data to compare against.
My biggest issue with measuring from the base is you end up having people argue a model on a 4" high platform can't be hit by a 6" tall treelord ancient on the ground floor, even if the models themselves are physically touching.
Captain Joystick wrote: It's still worthwhile to confirm with your opponent whether you're going to be measuring from bases or models. If only because the conversation becomes much more awkward if it comes up mid-game when you realize you've each been doing it a different way!
My biggest issue with measuring from the base is you end up having people argue a model on a 4" high platform can't be hit by a 6" tall treelord ancient on the ground floor, even if the models themselves are physically touching.
Terrain rules are pretty non existent and extraordinarily abstract to start with; the rules allow for chariots holding hyper positions mid castle wall. You can literally just say "my model is there in base to base" if your charge and pile in would put it in base to base.
Also it's important to note that the reverse scenario of having your mawcrusha unable to attack if you put it in the middle of its base is far more aggravating, as the rules punish you for placing the model in a way that looks aesthetically pleasing. Sadly things like achaeon get even more shafted since the bulk of the model is supported by a very narrow piece that needs to be put in the middle of the base. Guess he wont be attacking unless some dolts stand on ruins. Or you know, even getting locked in combat...
Captain Joystick wrote: It's still worthwhile to confirm with your opponent whether you're going to be measuring from bases or models. If only because the conversation becomes much more awkward if it comes up mid-game when you realize you've each been doing it a different way!
My biggest issue with measuring from the base is you end up having people argue a model on a 4" high platform can't be hit by a 6" tall treelord ancient on the ground floor, even if the models themselves are physically touching.
People like that will just cheat without blinking so who cares?
Again though, this is also why AOS really isn't a competitive system. If you want to play RAW and break it completely, that's that, easy peasy.
Build an entire shooty army with base designs that elevate them 4" off of the ground. Suddenly they're immune to melee altogether. Assuming you don't believe the base is a part of the model, which I think is fair to argue that it is.
In any case, I build my skeletons & dire wolves last night. I am glad i substituted fenrisian wolves. These guys are so easy to build and paint, and they stay on their bases fairly well. All I have left to assemble is the hexwraiths from my starter kit, for my first 500 points.
Marmatag wrote: Again though, this is also why AOS really isn't a competitive system. If you want to play RAW and break it completely, that's that, easy peasy.
Build an entire shooty army with base designs that elevate them 4" off of the ground. Suddenly they're immune to melee altogether. Assuming you don't believe the base is a part of the model, which I think is fair to argue that it is.
We had people try that. I just stopped gluing my models to their bases and instead made it so that I could remove them and place them on their bases.
In any case, I build my skeletons & dire wolves last night. I am glad i substituted fenrisian wolves. These guys are so easy to build and paint, and they stay on their bases fairly well. All I have left to assemble is the hexwraiths from my starter kit, for my first 500 points.
I really think you're doing the Dire Wolves a disservice. They're nice models and are pretty easy to work with.
AoS seems like it's in a weird place where they're reinventing the game to be modern sculpts and armies, and sun setting others.
If indeed there is a new death release, based on what they're doing, my gut tells me it'll be new models altogether. Perhaps something ranged. Skeletal Mages would be neat. Sort of like Grave Guard, but ranged.
Well, we have it heavily implied there's a Black Coach coming. The fact that Dire Wolves have been left 'as is' aside from being pulled back to Direct Only suggests they're being reboxed/rebased for a big Death release.
Fenrisian wolves are indeed great. I used them as substitute hounds for Orion back in those early days before the General's Handbook.
Just picked up another box of them to push my cauldrons of blood (back in stock, finally!) and the odd one out will be carrying a fun slaughter queen conversion.
Marmatag wrote: AoS seems like it's in a weird place where they're reinventing the game to be modern sculpts and armies, and sun setting others.
If indeed there is a new death release, based on what they're doing, my gut tells me it'll be new models altogether. Perhaps something ranged. Skeletal Mages would be neat. Sort of like Grave Guard, but ranged.
I'm kind of expecting them to go the ancient dead route. Models from 8th ed whfb like the sphinx were new sculpts that were only in stores for a few years. Those thiings are still kicking around somewhere.
With the rise of Nagash in AoS it seems like something themed to him would make sense, too. Especially if the overall narrative is that he's overthrowing the tomb kings. I haven't read all of the lore but it seems like he went from plot device to monster badass overnight.
Marmatag wrote: Maybe they are, but good luck buying them. Out of stock on the website and no one retails them.
And Fenrisian wolves are 4 pieces. You can build 5 of them in about 10 minutes.
Anyway i'm just saying I like them.
I picked up 20 Dire Wolves just this week from Gw-Online but I am in the UK so I don't know if that affects stock levels per region.
Fenrisian wolves are ace, but don't totally discount those dires if you get a chance they are a nice model themselves too.
I'm heavily awaiting these potential Night Haunt units, as I currently have a metric tonne of Night Haunt that could just use a little push to be a little better Hoping for a ranged unit....that doesn't go off of leadership.
The new edition makes me excited, sounds like casting in general is getting a massive boost, which would be good for that giant awesome Nagash model that we all have
Reporting back, had a few small games with my Stormcast buddy.
I am winning the games against his stormcast.
1. Grave sites are really good in small games. With a small army you're always fighting in proximity to at least 2 of them.
2. Curse of years - i know the odds are super low for it to deal its infinite wounds, but i've done it to him twice now. I erased his 2+ rerollable 1 save drakes with it, from 20" away thanks to Arkhan's command ability. I know this won't happen every time, but it was pretty gnarly.
We also did a 3 player game, with Ironjawz, Stormcast, and me. In the end we called it because on turn 3 i had lost 0 models thanks to regeneration.
This has left a pretty sour taste in his mouth and he's upset. I'm not sure if that's fair, though. I feel like his army is very powerful, and he's just playing to my strengths. Also, i'm going to have an advantage in smaller games because my stuff doesn't scale any more as you increase points. Anyway. It was an interesting experience. I think he was expecting to crush me? I dunno.
His army is very powerful and yeah he needs to learn target priority a little bit (not having seen the battles I can only assume that he's running right up to you and doing exactly what you need him to do, and then he's getting upset)
However... death with the ghb 2017 got a big boost. particularly with the costs to the chaffe being very cheap and then add on grave sites now.
To face death you really need to prioritize killing the heroes. But with cheap skeletons that in hordes have a very high output of damage that can force them to have to react to that instead.
Also, I made a mistake with the calculation of the Curse of Years i posted earlier. It should be .next(1,7). This smoothes the curve.
I also calculated the fatality probability by hand.
1 - ((1 - 5!/6^5)^10) = ~0.144034 or 14.4%.
This is more in line with my experience playing Arkhan.
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auticus wrote: His army is very powerful and yeah he needs to learn target priority a little bit (not having seen the battles I can only assume that he's running right up to you and doing exactly what you need him to do, and then he's getting upset)
Essentially yes, he's content to walk right into my skeletons and wolves. I'm running literally 4 units. Hexwraiths, 10 Skeletons, 5 Wolves, and Arkhan. Without Arkhan i couldn't make a dent in him. I have a feeling this will scale better at 2k.
I'm bummed he's being so salty about it though. I didn't even know what curse of years was before i bought the pack. It's literally a start collecting pack, and 5 wolves.
He's got a stardrake guy coming, coupled with his other dragons and his starsoul hammerbros i think he should be fine.
Once he figures out how to do crap like the 2++ save mortal wound spewing guys and the retributor death star that does about 16-18 wounds reliably every combat phase, and then gets to do the alpha strike teleport everything into your mouth on turn 1 and charge and erase your army, things will swing quickly to the other side lol
auticus wrote: Once he figures out how to do crap like the 2++ save mortal wound spewing guys and the retributor death star that does about 16-18 wounds reliably every combat phase, and then gets to do the alpha strike teleport everything into your mouth on turn 1 and charge and erase your army, things will swing quickly to the other side lol
Yeah, i'm not concerned with losing to that. Ultimately if he wants to build a top tier list i'll just take my lumps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, any suggestions on how to make gravesites? I would like to represent them with models.
