On day 1 of the FAQ I saw the Warlock nerf and got super confused. They (if I am not mistaken) doubled in points? I've never actually heard many people complain abiut Warlocks and, in fact, mostly saw people saying they were still too expensive in the codex. There are no Eldar players in my area so i have never come across a Warlock in game so I was wondering why they were nerfed?
If I had to guess, it relates to a lot of mini-Psykers going up in points a while back, and Warlocks being missed.
Maybe after Astraopths doubled in points, GW thought that Warlocks were too cheap in relation to them. They were about 5pts more but had better Movement, WS, BS, superior weapons, an extra attack, an extra power, a 4++, and the ability to benefit from Craftworld Attributes, character auras and so forth.
Personally, I think they went too far in both cases, but over-correction is the price we pay for a living ruleset.
Ynnari needs to be cut out and entirely redesigned (or you could just stop at the cutting part). Until they're seriously (and this time, intelligently) rethought to actually work in a way that isn't built around breaking the game, they'll always be a blight on everything they could potentially break the game with.
Fafnir wrote: Ynnari needs to be cut out and entirely redesigned (or you could just stop at the cutting part). Until they're seriously (and this time, intelligently) rethought to actually work in a way that isn't built around breaking the game, they'll always be a blight on everything they could potentially break the game with.
The state of the Ynnari is such a shame. They're cool concept, and I really liked an idea of different Eldar factions working together. I wanted to make a small Ynnari force composed of my favourite Eldar models from various subgroups; I already have bunch of them (not a singe Dark Reaper among them.) But instead their rules lead to OP cheese, in some very specific combinations, so they get nerfed all the time. Yet, this has pretty much killed their usability in more causal sense; you cannot even make Ynnari detachments out of mixed Eldar any more, which was their original selling point...
Fafnir wrote: Ynnari needs to be cut out and entirely redesigned (or you could just stop at the cutting part). Until they're seriously (and this time, intelligently) rethought to actually work in a way that isn't built around breaking the game, they'll always be a blight on everything they could potentially break the game with.
The state of the Ynnari is such a shame. They're cool concept, and I really liked an idea of different Eldar factions working together. I wanted to make a small Ynnari force composed of my favourite Eldar models from various subgroups; I already have bunch of them (not a singe Dark Reaper among them.) But instead their rules lead to OP cheese, in some very specific combinations, so they get nerfed all the time. Yet, this has pretty much killed their usability in more causal sense; you cannot even make Ynnari detachments out of mixed Eldar any more, which was their original selling point...
Yeah at this point just removing them would be the most humane thing to do they have been nerfed so many times that at this point they don't serve a purpose anymore even thematically never mind game wise.
pismakron wrote: It was pretty weird. I think at 55 points, they ought to have four wounds like other level 1 psyker characters.
I think they should have at least 3 wounds. 2 seems really low.
2 wounds is fine for a 30 point psyker with a pretty good lore. But at 55 points? A primaris psyker is 46 points and a Weirdboyz is 62 points and both of them has 4 wounds. Granted, they both have poor armour saves, but still.
Fafnir wrote: Ynnari needs to be cut out and entirely redesigned (or you could just stop at the cutting part). Until they're seriously (and this time, intelligently) rethought to actually work in a way that isn't built around breaking the game, they'll always be a blight on everything they could potentially break the game with.
GW doesn't know how to balance. You really ought to know this by now.
Warlocks are just really sub-par figures when you look outside of their ability to cast...one psychic power. The only thing they have which is vaguely good on occasion is a 4+ invulnerable save (but they die to lasgun and boltgun fire more then lascannons, so this is almost a waste).
The mini-smite is useless and didn't get a exemption from the new Smite rule. The two wounds means they die to perils 2/3rds of the time. Their stats are on par with a Guardian in close combat - and you'd never want to even give them a Singing Spear because of how gak they are in combat.
55 points makes them extremely tough to justify, particularly when a Warlock bike is 70 points. The extra speed, toughness, wound, and double guns make the biker warlock waaaay better (while still being mediocre).
I should admit I'm still angry about the retcon they did for Warlocks and Farseers after 2nd edition, so there will be no pleasing me. It's embarrassing how the game took them from being competent psychic warriors, leaders of the Craftworld...and made them jumped up little psyker pawns. It saddens me that Eldar psykers are so weak now that they can't even fend off a few attackers in close combat. Shame it ended up that way.
Fafnir wrote: Ynnari needs to be cut out and entirely redesigned (or you could just stop at the cutting part). Until they're seriously (and this time, intelligently) rethought to actually work in a way that isn't built around breaking the game, they'll always be a blight on everything they could potentially break the game with.
Ynnari needs its own codex with its own datasheets, this way only the datasheets within the codex can be used, and you can heavily limited the units (0-1 per detachments etc..) and even change point costs to balance Ynnari while still keeping its flavor. Also it will have its own relics, stratagems, etc...
Fafnir wrote: Ynnari needs to be cut out and entirely redesigned (or you could just stop at the cutting part). Until they're seriously (and this time, intelligently) rethought to actually work in a way that isn't built around breaking the game, they'll always be a blight on everything they could potentially break the game with.
Ynnari needs its own codex with its own datasheets, this way only the datasheets within the codex can be used, and you can heavily limited the units (0-1 per detachments etc..) and even change point costs to balance Ynnari while still keeping its flavor.
Also it will have its own relics, stratagems, etc...
This is IMO they best route for them.
Kill them off until then. Same for Inquisition. GW clearly cannot deal with these soup factions in their current state, and to pretend to make an effort to do so is only hurting them and the factions they draw from.
The simplest reason for footseer and footlock/spiritseer price increases seems to be GW trying to increase the "minimum cost" for craftworlds to bring buff powers.
think of it this way: they can increase every other unit in the line by a few points because of its ability to recieve buffs, or they can just increase the points costs of the things that give the buff.
option 1 just leads to units being trash unbuffed, option 2 is at least somewhat sensible. considering how much craftworlds rely on power/buff synergies, increasing that minimum cost makes a lot of sense.
I should admit I'm still angry about the retcon they did for Warlocks and Farseers after 2nd edition, so there will be no pleasing me. It's embarrassing how the game took them from being competent psychic warriors, leaders of the Craftworld...and made them jumped up little psyker pawns. It saddens me that Eldar psykers are so weak now that they can't even fend off a few attackers in close combat. Shame it ended up that way.
Same. They used to be pretty terrifying in close combat. Even after all these years it feels wrong to me that this is no longer the case. I really loved the 2nd edition Eldar, they were my first army.
WindstormSCR wrote: The simplest reason for footseer and footlock/spiritseer price increases seems to be GW trying to increase the "minimum cost" for craftworlds to bring buff powers.
think of it this way: they can increase every other unit in the line by a few points because of its ability to recieve buffs, or they can just increase the points costs of the things that give the buff.
option 1 just leads to units being trash unbuffed, option 2 is at least somewhat sensible. considering how much craftworlds rely on power/buff synergies, increasing that minimum cost makes a lot of sense.
Except nobody relied on Warlocks for those buffs, and there's even less reason to use them now.
pismakron wrote: It was pretty weird. I think at 55 points, they ought to have four wounds like other level 1 psyker characters.
I think they should have at least 3 wounds. 2 seems really low.
2 wounds is fine for a 30 point psyker with a pretty good lore. But at 55 points? A primaris psyker is 46 points and a Weirdboyz is 62 points and both of them has 4 wounds. Granted, they both have poor armour saves, but still.
6+ save compared to a 4++? It's a pretty drastic difference. The Weirdboy has 4W to mitigate the virtually guaranteed perils he suffers every round too.
I think we need to look at this a little more objectively. Though I'm going to preface this by saying that I believe Warlocks are slightly over-costed with this increase, they do bring quite a bit to the table and there are more things we need to consider in my humble opinion;
1. Access to arguably the most important stratagem for Craftworlds' players in Seer Council.
2. The most flexible casters bar none as all of their powers are dual use.
3. Runes of battle is probably the most powerful psychic discipline in the game.
4. They aren't beasts in combat by any stretch but they wound anything on a 2+ and do D3 damage per unsaved wound.
5. Character protection - which should mitigate their low wound count and toughness.
6. HQ choice. HQ options are always useful.
Am I saying that 55pts per Warlock is right? No, I'm not. I don't think it's as far off as this thread implies though.
It's worth noting that skyrunner Warlocks did not increase in price.
Their problem really lies in the existence of Spiritseers who are pretty much better in every way for their cost, apart from the lack of access to Seer Council. The quick fix is to increase the cost of Spiritseers proportionally. An alternative is to decrease the stats of the Spiritseer. The 'proper' fix for me would be to make Spiritseers and Warlocks the exact same cost and give them the same statline, possibly 3W. Seers keep their buff to Wraith units and Locks get the Seer Council stratagem and become more useful when taken in a conclave, although expensive units with multiple wounds ala TEQs are pretty garbage across the board as things are now.
I should admit I'm still angry about the retcon they did for Warlocks and Farseers after 2nd edition, so there will be no pleasing me. It's embarrassing how the game took them from being competent psychic warriors, leaders of the Craftworld...and made them jumped up little psyker pawns. It saddens me that Eldar psykers are so weak now that they can't even fend off a few attackers in close combat. Shame it ended up that way.
Agreed. And don't let me start up about the range of shuriken weapons.
Elbows wrote: I should admit I'm still angry about the retcon they did for Warlocks and Farseers after 2nd edition, so there will be no pleasing me. It's embarrassing how the game took them from being competent psychic warriors, leaders of the Craftworld...and made them jumped up little psyker pawns. It saddens me that Eldar psykers are so weak now that they can't even fend off a few attackers in close combat. Shame it ended up that way.
2nd edition rules for Farseers and Warlocks (of which there were three different classes) were far more representative of the fluff. I'm not sure what edition chopped Eldar psykers from being combat-capable, probably 3rd?
In 2nd edition a Farseer was something to behold and was priced accordingly. He was a great psyker and could hold his own in combat (though still was not capable of matching a Space Marine Captain or a Hive Tyrant, Assassin, etc.).
M WSBS S T W I A Ld 5 7 7 4 5 4 9 3 10
To put this in perspective, a Farseer cost more than any of the Phoenix Lords and had stats which rivalled if not exceeded them in many instances. They really felt like the super powerful world-leading mega-psyker warriors.
You also only had two options to lead your army, the Farseer or the Avatar (they hadn't made up the Autarch yet, thankfully). Warlocks could be almost as stat-heavy with three options (Warlock, Warlock Master, and Warlock Champion). You did pay quite a few points, but they weren't non-combatant chumps like they are now. Also, witchblades and singing spears were something to really fear (the spear being on par with a lascannon at close range). A witchblade or singing spear adde the Mastery Level of the psyker to his strength, meaning a Farseer (Mastery Level 4) had a Strength 8 witchblade which could carve through infantry and even vehicles on occasion.
Exarchs suffered a similar fate (they were originally the combat-machines). They were statted much better, carried options of wargear and special Exarch powers (you could design your own Exarchs which was awesome). The large Eldar shift killed off Farseers and Warlocks as actual combat leaders, making Farseers want to hide and cast spells, and Warlocks became petty sergeants for Guardian squads. Likewise, Exarchs lost stats and became "just another" Aspect Warrior who lent special abilities to the squad. In general it killed the feel of Eldar being those powerful, nimble, deadly 'Space Elves' who also happened to be potent psykers.
Couple that with an Avatar who has lost stats as his model has been outgrown (he used to be on par with a Bloodthirster - but now sucks ass by comparison, simply because his model is 1/3rd the size now), Shuriken Catapults being chopped to 12", etc. and the 'feel' of the Eldar army is drastically different, and not so much for the better.
Maybe a little bit overcosted (by maybe 5 pts) but it seems like its sitting in the right ballpark now. 2 Wounds is low but, then again, they're fragile space elves.
etb342 wrote: Maybe a little bit overcosted (by maybe 5 pts) but it seems like its sitting in the right ballpark now. 2 Wounds is low but, then again, they're fragile space elves.
You realize they can't cast real smite right? They have a pistol and a sword that has -0AP. They can cast a single spell - and when they perils there is a good chance they die. Going into the FAQ - this unit was high on a list of units need point drops. To go up 20 points - is literally insane. The spiritseer going up make sense it was obviously too cheap.
Yeah, simply put it's not a good unit. I think one issue is probably that the basic Warlock is an HQ. Some people mentioned it above. A 35 point HQ is a big boon to an army which can run 60 point squads of Rangers. That's 250 points for a Battalion which now yields 5 command points.
However, the Warlock is not being fixed, but rather punished because of how it was initially designed (i.e. poorly).
Elbows wrote: 2nd edition rules for Farseers and Warlocks (of which there were three different classes) were far more representative of the fluff. I'm not sure what edition chopped Eldar psykers from being combat-capable, probably 3rd?
In 2nd edition a Farseer was something to behold and was priced accordingly. He was a great psyker and could hold his own in combat (though still was not capable of matching a Space Marine Captain or a Hive Tyrant, Assassin, etc.).
M WSBS S T W I A Ld 5 7 7 4 5 4 9 3 10
To put this in perspective, a Farseer cost more than any of the Phoenix Lords and had stats which rivalled if not exceeded them in many instances. They really felt like the super powerful world-leading mega-psyker warriors.
You also only had two options to lead your army, the Farseer or the Avatar (they hadn't made up the Autarch yet, thankfully). Warlocks could be almost as stat-heavy with three options (Warlock, Warlock Master, and Warlock Champion). You did pay quite a few points, but they weren't non-combatant chumps like they are now. Also, witchblades and singing spears were something to really fear (the spear being on par with a lascannon at close range). A witchblade or singing spear adde the Mastery Level of the psyker to his strength, meaning a Farseer (Mastery Level 4) had a Strength 8 witchblade which could carve through infantry and even vehicles on occasion.
Exarchs suffered a similar fate (they were originally the combat-machines). They were statted much better, carried options of wargear and special Exarch powers (you could design your own Exarchs which was awesome). The large Eldar shift killed off Farseers and Warlocks as actual combat leaders, making Farseers want to hide and cast spells, and Warlocks became petty sergeants for Guardian squads. Likewise, Exarchs lost stats and became "just another" Aspect Warrior who lent special abilities to the squad. In general it killed the feel of Eldar being those powerful, nimble, deadly 'Space Elves' who also happened to be potent psykers.
Couple that with an Avatar who has lost stats as his model has been outgrown (he used to be on par with a Bloodthirster - but now sucks ass by comparison, simply because his model is 1/3rd the size now), Shuriken Catapults being chopped to 12", etc. and the 'feel' of the Eldar army is drastically different, and not so much for the better.
I remember those monsters from when I first started playing. The old school Singing Spear and Witchblade were pretty terrifying. The souped up Exarchs were seriously awesome too. Dammit...now I'm getting all nostalgic
I think WindstormSCR has it right, they thought many Craftworld units were just too good when buffed with psychic powers so rather than increase the cost of every unit that might become too good when buffed they increased the cost of the buffs (warlocks, spiritseers and farseers all went up).
I used to run 3 warlocks before the changes for thematic reasons (it felt wrong having a load of spiritseers when I run an aspect warhost with no wraith units) so the changes were pretty painful. I get why they wanted to increase the cost of accessing the psychic powers but it now makes warlocks an even worse choice because their 2 wound stat line is not appropriate to the current price tag and because spiritseers are still only 10pts more than them.
Personally if I were doing things I'd want to swap the statline and smites of warlocks and spiritseers (since warlocks are supposed to be the actual battle psychers) which would hopefully have the effect of making warlocks the default choice with spiritseers being chosen specifically for their ability to buff wraith units which seems to encourage more thematic armies in my mind.
The best way to equip a melee Farseer in 2nd was with the Executioner. Str 8 d3 wounds and -6 save (the d3 wounds was what made it way better than the witchblade/singing spear)
Between Mind War and the Executioner powers (yes there was a Wargear and Psychic power with the same name) The Farseer could eliminate at least 1 model/character a turn with no chance of harm to himself in the psychic phase.
The Warlock sucked primarily because the SpiritSeer was so undercosted. It still has severe limitations, but if you forget about the Spirit Seer, the Warlock was a really good deal, but not good spammed.
I think they're trying to balance Runes of Battle. So if they bumped the Spirit Seer so much, everyone would just switch to Warlocks.
I think they bumped the Warlock a little too much, but untouched he'd be too scary. Even if he stands reasonable chance of going boom any time he casts a power.
I do miss my 6e/7e Exarchs. One of the best things about the 7e book was the Exarch stats. I'd rather the CC Exarch be the beatstick and the Autarch be a leader/ not a beatstick. But in this game, they seem to want all "top HQs" to be beatsticks.
I find Farseers/Warlocks, at least since 6th, can add enough in CC to matter, but they aren't going to be your primary CC threat. I do miss 6e/7e Singing Spear, with it's potential to pen stuff, and even ID if a Chapter Master or something manages to fail a 2+. Not competitive choices, but fun.
It's also worth noting that the Warlock, while good with access to powers is covering the Eldar's pretty comprehensive lack of buffing auras which other armies seem to get in droves (and ones they don't have to roll to activate).
Outside of Aspect specific Phoenix Lord buffs, there is only the Autarch aura, and the Avatar one.
So without any "re-roll failed wounds", and "re-roll all hits", etc. kind of auras, the Eldar rely on Warlock casting to cover that. It often has more range, but can't impact more than one unit, and must still be cast. Eldar also lack any of the somewhat silly "if you have 20 or more models, gain a free attack!" kind of stuff other armies have.
The Warlocks are carrying the workload of the special rules for the Eldar.
It's still going to be the spiritseer being played. The warlock still sucks in comparison to the spirit seer. So any speculation about "oh they did it to raise the cost of an eldar battalion" is just rubbish. Before including a single warlock was done just to be able to use the seer council stratagem - with this current cost - even that wont be utilized.
To the people calling for Ynnari, and Inquisition for that matter, to simply be removed from the game, an honest question: has GW ever removed an army from the game that had models associated with it that were selling? I get that Ynnari only have three distinct models, but with the exception of the Visarch they're very popular models.
Spiritseer and Farseer points increases make perfect sense. They are both still worth their points.
The character Warlock should be more expensive than a Conclave Warlock due to its character protection. The old price of the character Warlock could have stayed the same and in conjunction with the other Seer increases, could have been worth considering.
The Conclave, however, should have dropped in cost to no more than 25ppm.
Primark G wrote: Can the character WL take a jetbike? If yes even though even more points that seems the way to go.
He can. The funny thing is that the Warlock on Jetbike has a separate datasheet, and that one did not change in value at all. Which makes this nerf even more perplexing.
peteralmo wrote: To the people calling for Ynnari, and Inquisition for that matter, to simply be removed from the game, an honest question: has GW ever removed an army from the game that had models associated with it that were selling? I get that Ynnari only have three distinct models, but with the exception of the Visarch they're very popular models.
Primark G wrote: Can the character WL take a jetbike? If yes even though even more points that seems the way to go.
He can. The funny thing is that the Warlock on Jetbike has a separate datasheet, and that one did not change in value at all. Which makes this nerf even more perplexing.
It actually makes sense if you look from the context I posted earlier in the thread. the foot costs were the lowest, and they probably just wanted to increase the minimum requirement, not costs across the board.
imo though the conclave cost should have stayed as-is, as a risk/reward option.
Crimson wrote: I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.
Yeha.
I figure it is the elegance of the weaponry that stops them from improving on it.
Aeldari engineers - "But, it is the most beautiful design,
slicing off atom-thin wafers of nasty matter
spinning the jeebus out of them
and spitting them out at all sorts of critters
with enough intensity to rip up some tough stuff.
It should be the best weapon in the galaxy."
<Looking at all the guardians dead from knife wounds.>
Aeldari engineers - "Oh. This world is madness. We are all going to die."
Bharring wrote: The problem with 2 is you're more likely than not gonna go splat on a single Perils. That's the only reason I wish the character warlock had 3w.
Not gonna happen while stock sorcs and libs are sporting 3.
Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Bharring wrote: The problem with 2 is you're more likely than not gonna go splat on a single Perils. That's the only reason I wish the character warlock had 3w.
Rubric aspiring sorcerer has 1 wound 100% chance to die on perils PLUS explode, and because mortal wounds carry over to his units, when he perils he automatically kills 2d3 rubric marines, no questions asked. You know, the kind of models that go for 20 points with 5" movement and sport a glorified bolter and nothing else.
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
That is bad. Although the 1kson psker is less likely to be the warlord. I have actually fielded my Warlock as a warlord a couple times, but I'm sure that's super rare.
At any rate, yeah, Warlocks don't have it as bad as that.
Bharring wrote: The problem with 2 is you're more likely than not gonna go splat on a single Perils. That's the only reason I wish the character warlock had 3w.
Rubric aspiring sorcerer has 1 wound 100% chance to die on perils PLUS explode, and because mortal wounds carry over to his units, when he perils he automatically kills 2d3 rubric marines, no questions asked. You know, the kind of models that go for 20 points with 5" movement and sport a glorified bolter and nothing else.
Warlocks are ok.
And a few months ago someone on dakka told me I had no idea how to play because I was not casting on my rubric asps. Mini smite or firestorm is not worth the risk. At all. So we are back at square one with rubrics, a squad with a caster that cant really cast anything in fear of blowing up the unit. And this is not going to change since we just got a FAQ.
However I still find limited use of the Asp through the cabalist focus stratagem. But that has nothing to do with manifesting powers from the actual asp.
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
Warlocks are fine with only 2 wounds. They are not fine, however, with 2 wounds and costing over 40pts.
Character WL should be 40ppm, Conclave WLs should be 25ppm. With the Spiritseer cost bump, this seems about right and makes all choices viable.
As someone you plays against 1kSons almost regularly, I can say perils rarely happens. I get mini smited all the damn time. I think the fear is much greater than the actual risk.
Crimson Devil wrote: As someone you plays against 1kSons almost regularly, I can say perils rarely happens. I get mini smited all the damn time. I think the fear is much greater than the actual risk.
As someone who plays 1kSons almost regularly, I have completely shelved my rubric units. And not because of their power level, but because of POP issues.
Back on topic, warlocks might be expensive now, but if you make a universe where you can get HQ options that are psykers for 40 pts or less, you create a very problematic theme of 200 pt battalions giving out 5 CPs easily.
Guard and DE will still do that better, because they have much cheaper troop options. The cheapest HQ of those factions would need to be 70pts+ more than a Warlock for that to work. Cheapest CWE troop is 56pts (8man Storm Guardian squad). Their 5-man troop units are 12ppm minimum. So CWE would need warlocks to cost sub-20 to get a 200pt battalion.
I think the cheap Psyker side is more the issue. Especially since Runes of Battle are very good.
Warlocks are also Space Elves, and Sorcs/Libbys are Space Ubermensch.
For wounds, I'd think Primaris Psykers are the more apt comparison, although Warlocks are a little tougher (Warlocks have all previously been Aspect Warriors, and are much better equipped).
With Libbys at 3, it's hard for Warlocks to go up to 3.
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
Bharring wrote: Warlocks are also Space Elves, and Sorcs/Libbys are Space Ubermensch.
For wounds, I'd think Primaris Psykers are the more apt comparison, although Warlocks are a little tougher (Warlocks have all previously been Aspect Warriors, and are much better equipped).
With Libbys at 3, it's hard for Warlocks to go up to 3.
It's pretty hard to justify any unit by comparing it to it's marine counterpart. Unless it's a storm raven.
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
Tsons shouldn't perils - period.
Nor should Daemons, but we get what we get.
Well, Daemons are malicious even to each other and when a Daemon is in the real world, they need power from the warp to sustain their form. From that perspective, you can easily assume that a Perils result is either another Daemon lashing out at a rival, or the Daemon's tether to the warp weakening thus resulting in them being banished back to the warp
I've never understood the "Daemons should be immune to Perils" arguement
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I can see that. So I'll remain a little bummed. Less bummed than I'd be if Warlocks were at Libby/Sorc level in stats. And we certainly don't need more inflation.
Well if it makes you feel better, as a 1kson player I also suffer from the 2 wound mini-caster plight. And even worse, a one wound mini-caster that will take out his own squad on a peril. The derp is real.
Tsons shouldn't perils - period.
Nor should Daemons, but we get what we get.
Well, Daemons are malicious even to each other and when a Daemon is in the real world, they need power from the warp to sustain their form.
From that perspective, you can easily assume that a Perils result is either another Daemon lashing out at a rival, or the Daemon's tether to the warp weakening thus resulting in them being banished back to the warp
I've never understood the "Daemons should be immune to Perils" arguement
-
It makes as much sense as "Tsons should be immune to perils"
The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
-
So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
-
So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Because if they made a mechanic for it being different people would whine endlessly. I should place my opponents models because my army knows the future but that isn't a thing because it's a dumb idea.
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
-
So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Because if they made a mechanic for it being different people would whine endlessly. I should place my opponents models because my army knows the future but that isn't a thing because it's a dumb idea.
You're right, no mechanic should be different.
We should take Grinding Advance away from Leman Russes, Power of the Machine Spirit away from Land Raiders - hey, while we're at it, let's just take away faction rules, too. After all, it's a mechanic for being different and we don't want those because people whine endlessly!
Galef wrote: The point being that the CHANCE is there no matter how skilled/innately psychic/connected to the warp they are. It is possible. No single being, save maybe the Emprah himself, is truly "immune" to the negative affect of the warp. Unless no connection to the warp exists, such as blanks that have zero psychic powers to begin with.
-
So why does Bob, an untrained Rogue Psyker from a planet somewhere, have exactly the same "chance" of this happening as Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, the Slayer of Souls, the world-burner whose mastery of fate is second only to that of Tzeench and who is driven mad by this very fact?
Because if they made a mechanic for it being different people would whine endlessly. I should place my opponents models because my army knows the future but that isn't a thing because it's a dumb idea.
You're right, no mechanic should be different.
We should take Grinding Advance away from Leman Russes, Power of the Machine Spirit away from Land Raiders - hey, while we're at it, let's just take away faction rules, too. After all, it's a mechanic for being different and we don't want those because people whine endlessly!
That's different. There's having different rules for things that have meaning and having different rules that are just bloat. Or maybe I imagined when people complained about things like Poison and Fleshbane in 7th.
pm713 wrote: That's different. There's having different rules for things that have meaning and having different rules that are just bloat. Or maybe I imagined when people complained about things like Poison and Fleshbane in 7th.
Ah yes, Power of the Machine Spirit making Land Raiders immune to the -1 penalty is SOOOOOOOOOOOO different than "Denizen of the Warp" making Daemons immune to perils. Such hard to remember. Much brain-hurt.
Heck, I can barely remember that Leman Russes ignore the -1 to hit too, but only on one gun, but they move half speed that gun can fire twice. Unless they're Tallarn, then they ignore the -1 on all the guns, and can move 11 inches in a turn, but some in the shooting phase, if there is a Tank Commander around. That's nice and simple, though.
Xenomancers wrote: It makes sense to me that especially skilled psychic daemonic armies should be immune to the energies they practically live in.
Only imperial/eldar psykers should perils IMO. GK/inquisitors should also be immune - the are specially trained to harness the warp/fight warp beings.
I suspect you're the only one that this makes sense to, then, if you think someone like Eldrad should have a chance to peril but not some newbie Inquisitor because of their "special training."
That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
Why?
Because that's like me suffering "Perils of My House" every time I tried to do something away from home? Or even if I do something in my own home?
Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.
pm713 wrote: That's not at all what I was against. What I was against was a rule for Chaos Marine psykers. Another for Tzeentch Marines. Another for Eldar. Another for Eldar around Dark Eldar. Another for Daemons. Another for Tzeentch Daemons. Another for Marines. Another for Marines who are Renegades. Another for Marines who worship the Emperor. Another for Guard. Another for Guard near Sisters of Silence. Another for Harlequins. And so on.
Or just a constant Perils that's the same for everybody.
Oh. I am just saying "if you make someone immune/resistant to perils, then Daemons makes the most sense to be that someone before anyone else."
Why?
Because that's like me suffering "Perils of My House" every time I tried to do something away from home? Or even if I do something in my own home?
One faction having a rule isn't that bad. Personally I think it's the start of a slippery slope but I don't play 8th so eh.
The issue with giving it to a faction is which one? Demons live in the Warp but also have lots of rivals and enemies to try and mess up their casting. Eldar train endlessly to avoid mishaps but are also the number 1 target for Slaaneshi demons. You can probably do that for every faction. Except Orks who are just a bit crazy.
Crimson Devil wrote: Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.
Presumably, it would be literally unlivable to sentient life forms if mere existence killed you 1/18th of the time...
pm713 wrote: One faction having a rule isn't that bad. Personally I think it's the start of a slippery slope but I don't play 8th so eh.
The issue with giving it to a faction is which one? Demons live in the Warp but also have lots of rivals and enemies to try and mess up their casting. Eldar train endlessly to avoid mishaps but are also the number 1 target for Slaaneshi demons. You can probably do that for every faction. Except Orks who are just a bit crazy.
Exactly. It is the same as Moral. If factions X, Y and Z have immunity to Morale, why both even having it in the game at all?
Perils of the Warp is the same. You can include it and it actually matter, or you can ditch it.
Several factions have a reason to suffer less from Perils, but if we gave it to all, Perils would be worthless as a game mechanic. If we gave it to some, than others that didn't would complain
Eldar weapons and mechanisms are often operated via psyker power. It's just not a significant draw / substantial working.
In the same way, a DP of Nurgle uses the Warp to stand there. But it's not as significant / substantial as when the DP of Nurgle manifests the gifts of Papa upon the soon-to-be-inducted-to-the-family hordes around him.
Doing so would require invoking more of the Warp than just standing there, and in a different way, in theory.
I'd agree that if any faction were immune, Demons would probably be it.
But if there's a second faction?
Certainly not CSM. Sorcs go boom when they screw up a spell is a central tennent of their fluff. *Especially* 1ksons fluff.
Probably not Eldar. Warlocks and Farseers are always tempting fate when they try to do anything too big.
Probably not GK, as some random neophyte isn't nearly as trained or experienced in handling the Warp as an Eldar psyker.
Maybe IG. Just so there'd be more stuff for people to complain about them on the forums.
Back to the topic at hand, I'd love for Perils to not be so much more deadly to a Warlock than a Chaos Sorcerer. And the 1ksons pskyer probably should also not be more vulnerable to it than that Sorc. But the rules don't make it easy to make that happen, and still be fair.
I'd like a fix, but just bumping Warlocks to 3w is kinda an insult to Libbys.
No-one should be immune to perils, it's a key mechanic of the game.
Not sure what this has to do with the Warlock nerf but to be fair the topic seemed to devolve into a echo chamber of remembering the "good old days" when Warlocks were absolute beasts in 2nd ed. I played Eldar back then, they were decent.
On topic for Warlocks and Perils: Having only 2 wounds and thus an increased ability to die from a single Perils is actually fluffy because Warlocks have only just started the Path of the Seer. I think the main issue is that the points increase is a bit much, especially compared to a Spiritseer that is only 10ppm more. If anything, the Spiritseet should be close to twice the cost of a character Warlock and certainly more than a minimum Conclave. So if a Spritseer is 65ppm, Warlocks should be 35ppm and a 2 Warlock conclave should be 60pts (30ppm). So, basically the points they used to be pre-FAQ
Side note: To recall Xenos example of Bob the Rogue Psyker vs Aetaos'Rau'Kheres, in that regard there is more Perils protection since Bob the psyker would die to a single Perils, but Aetaos'Rau'Kheres only takes D3 wounds. It would take many, many Perils for Aetaos'Rau'Kheres to die, thus he has more Perils protection
Would this be a bad time to mention that farseers ignore mortal wounds from perils on a 2+ thanks to their ghosthelms?
I really liked reading about second ed warlocks. I started eldar in late third, and the disconnect between the fluff power level of seers and locks and their tabletop performance always puzzled me. Now I know.
Relevant to the op:
Jetbike warlocks didn't go up, and were already the only way a warlock saw the battlefield (one, accompanying my farseer). While unjustified, I don't think their price hike actually changed much. You can't see less play than "never".
shortymcnostrill wrote: Would this be a bad time to mention that farseers ignore mortal wounds from perils on a 2+ thanks to their ghosthelms?
I really liked reading about second ed warlocks. I started eldar in late third, and the disconnect between the fluff power level of seers and locks and their tabletop performance always puzzled me. Now I know.
Relevant to the op:
Jetbike warlocks didn't go up, and were already the only way a warlock saw the battlefield (one, accompanying my farseer). While unjustified, I don't think their price hike actually changed much. You can't see less play than "never".
You certainly can, and I wish Warlocks and Spiritseers both had a toned down version of the Ghosthelm as they all gain runes and special combat gear to help protect them from he vageries of the warp. I've also lost a Farseer to perils even with that 2+++.
Crimson Devil wrote: Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.
Presumably, it would be literally unlivable to sentient life forms if mere existence killed you 1/18th of the time...
The Warp is like Darkness. It's not the Warp/Darkness you need to be afraid of, it's what's in it.
Look at this way. For a Daemon, It's not the warp causing the perils. It's a rival dicking them over while they're vulnerable.
On 1K Suns, as a not 1KSuns player, I'd be fine with the squad sorcerers suffering perils as normal, but it doesn't carry over to anyone. Not their squad, not the enemy, not that beastmen unit right next to them.
On the original topic. I agree with most of the posters who have been saying 55 for 2W is too much. Either make the caster cheaper, or buff it to be worth those points.
Honestly, make them battle psykers like they are in the fluff. Give them a few more attacks, an extra wound, something like that. Let them kick butt for the craftworld.
Crimson wrote: I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.
love it
It's a fair point.
Honestly though, the weirder thing for me is that Eldar always fight their battles personally. I'd have thought - especially as a dying race - they'd make far heavier use of machines, mercenaries or allies to do most of the fighting for them - perhaps with just a handful of actual Eldar to direct the battle.
Crimson wrote: I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.
love it
It's a fair point.
Honestly though, the weirder thing for me is that Eldar always fight their battles personally. I'd have thought - especially as a dying race - they'd make far heavier use of machines, mercenaries or allies to do most of the fighting for them - perhaps with just a handful of actual Eldar to direct the battle.
That's exactly the kind of thing that lead to the Fall. Using machines just created Slaanesh and using mercenaries isn't really something you get on the tabletop. That would be represented by something like Tau V Guard.
Crimson wrote: I think the range of the shuriken catapults is the main reason why the Eldar are a dying race.
love it
It's a fair point.
Honestly though, the weirder thing for me is that Eldar always fight their battles personally. I'd have thought - especially as a dying race - they'd make far heavier use of machines, mercenaries or allies to do most of the fighting for them - perhaps with just a handful of actual Eldar to direct the battle.
They don't always fight personally. The craftworld seers subtly manipulate other races years in advance so that when the time for a battle comes it is eg the imperial guard fighting those daemons that otherwise the eldar would need to fight. They pull the strings of fate so that eldar fight as few battles as possible.
Crimson Devil wrote: Actually it would be more like someone trying to strangle you in your own home. This isn't fish drowning or something like that. This is the warp is a dangerous place for everybody.
Presumably, it would be literally unlivable to sentient life forms if mere existence killed you 1/18th of the time...
The Warp is like Darkness. It's not the Warp/Darkness you need to be afraid of, it's what's in it.
Look at this way. For a Daemon, It's not the warp causing the perils. It's a rival dicking them over while they're vulnerable.
Yeah but why wait till they cast a power? It's like a hitman hired to kill me in my house, but he can't actually do anything until I wash dishes or something. If they want to represent rival daemons attacking daemons in the warp... then just fight a daemons vs daemons battle on a warp-themed table.
They literally live there. Where there are daemons, the warp is bleeding into realspace. If a Daemon casts a psychic power, it's just manipulating that stuff. If a rival daemon wants to feth with them, why not just walk up and boop them? Perils of the Warp doesn't make sense, because warp daemons fight in the warp, or at worst, with one foot in the warp and one foot in reality. One could literally 'see' the warp predator wandering over to bash them on the head with a brick (or whatever perils is).
So instead of "put an unaligned Fury model in close combat with the Greater Exalted Most High Daemon of All who can control the Fury just by sheer force of will (?!?)", they should just be immune to perils.
The tabletop is normally fought with the assumption that the warp is "some other place" and the predators in that other place eat you when you do stuff in "this place". Chaos Daemons, when they go to war, literally put "that other place" right here, right now. So a predator from "That other place" that's coming to hit them with a brick? Well, they're here, now. Because the border between reality and the warp doesn't exist here, and you can see and presumably avoid those predators, the way any daemon might (assuming the Chaos God's lands are not totally overrun by angry warp predators/rivals).
It'd be like a hitman waiting for you to be preoccupied with something you're doing, instead of coming at you while you're looking around for something to do.
I could totally see rules pairing Demons themselves to Perils somehow, but not exempting CSM from Perils. But how complicated do we want the rules?
This is exactly why I am 100% ok with everyone suffering Perils and it just doing mortal wounds.
It keeps the rules simple and as we have seen, you can justify ANY psyker being affected by Perils
Even if you are unhappy that your big-mama-jama Daemon can suffer from Perils when they should be the ultimate psychic force in the galaxy, remember that 8th is still an improvement from 7th in which there was still a slim chance that your model could get sucked into the warp if you rolled a 1 on the Perils chart.
Taking D3 mortal wounds is not that big a deal for a model that starts with over a dozen wounds
It'd be like a hitman waiting for you to be preoccupied with something you're doing, instead of coming at you while you're looking around for something to do.
I could totally see rules pairing Demons themselves to Perils somehow, but not exempting CSM from Perils. But how complicated do we want the rules?
I'm fine with them suffering Perils. I'm just making an argument why "if any army should be immune to Perils it's daemons." I'm not advocating a rules change, just illustrating why it's silly to say "<Insert Army X> should be immune to perils!" unless said army is daemons.
And "stuck in the warp" has no meaning, because the warp is here. It's like the hitman standing in my house - because I live there, I can see him, and possibly fight him off. Even if he catches me doing dishes/whatever. Presumably, daemons in the warp constantly have to deal with warp predators (even when they're doing other things, including fighting huge wars), and they somehow manage just fine.
I'm fine with them suffering Perils. I'm just making an argument why "if any army should be immune to Perils it's daemons." I'm not advocating a rules change, just illustrating why it's silly to say "<Insert Army X> should be immune to perils!" unless said army is daemons.
And "stuck in the warp" has no meaning, because the warp is here. It's like the hitman standing in my house - because I live there, I can see him, and possibly fight him off. Even if he catches me doing dishes/whatever. Presumably, daemons in the warp constantly have to deal with warp predators (even when they're doing other things, including fighting huge wars), and they somehow manage just fine.
Overall I disagree as Daemons in real space can easily fall victim to rival Daemons that are still in the Warp.
However, this is how Daemons functioned back in 5th. No Daemon had psychic powers at all, not even Tzeentch, and therefore Perils was not a possibility.
"Psychic powers" were instead expressed as regular shooting attacks and auras.
If GW were to make Daemons "immune to Perils" again, I would hope they would do it in this manner.
I'm fine with them suffering Perils. I'm just making an argument why "if any army should be immune to Perils it's daemons." I'm not advocating a rules change, just illustrating why it's silly to say "<Insert Army X> should be immune to perils!" unless said army is daemons.
And "stuck in the warp" has no meaning, because the warp is here. It's like the hitman standing in my house - because I live there, I can see him, and possibly fight him off. Even if he catches me doing dishes/whatever. Presumably, daemons in the warp constantly have to deal with warp predators (even when they're doing other things, including fighting huge wars), and they somehow manage just fine.
Overall I disagree as Daemons in real space can easily fall victim to rival Daemons that are still in the Warp.
However, this is how Daemons functioned back in 5th. No Daemon had psychic powers at all, not even Tzeentch, and therefore Perils was not a possibility.
"Psychic powers" were instead expressed as regular shooting attacks and auras.
If GW were to make Daemons "immune to Perils" again, I would hope they would do it in this manner.
-
I agree! But I don't think it's necessary. As I've mentioned, I think it's fine the way it is. I merely sought to illustrate why "Army X should be immune to perils" is an awful, atrocious claim unless "Army X" is daemons.
Xenomancers wrote: It makes sense to me that especially skilled psychic daemonic armies should be immune to the energies they practically live in.
Only imperial/eldar psykers should perils IMO. GK/inquisitors should also be immune - the are specially trained to harness the warp/fight warp beings.
I suspect you're the only one that this makes sense to, then, if you think someone like Eldrad should have a chance to peril but not some newbie Inquisitor because of their "special training."
You do realize that the eldar practically destroyed themselves and created a chaos god with their misuse of their psychic energies? They should be the most likely to perils. They protect themselves with runes and stones which is game terms make them practically immune to perils. That's fine with me - that is cool and fluffy. They should not be immune though.
Can we just agree that "Warlocks should be no *more* immune than Tzeechian Demon Princes" and move on?
Automatically Appended Next Post: After all, if the Emprah can peril just because a call from his son distracted him, and tear a hole in the Materium on earth, do we really need to discuss why $faction should be immune from Peril-ing?
It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.
Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.
Xenomancers wrote: It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.
Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.
Start a new thread that discusses perils if you want to talk that nonsense. This thread needs locked...
Xenomancers wrote: It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.
Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.
Start a new thread that discusses perils if you want to talk that nonsense. This thread needs locked...
Is this discussion hurting you in some way? Warlocks are a low wound psyker - they share issues with other low wound psykers. It is relevant. Thank you for being forum police though. It adds a lot of value to the discussion.l
Xenomancers wrote: It was never about warlocks - it was about thousand sons sorcerers. They have it even worse than warlocks do. They perils and they bring down their whole squad with them. It's fething dumb.
Maybe we just need to remove the silly when pskyers die of perils they destroy units nearby them.
Start a new thread that discusses perils if you want to talk that nonsense. This thread needs locked...
Is this discussion hurting you in some way? Warlocks are a low wound psyker - they share issues with other low wound psykers. It is relevant. Thank you for being forum police though. It adds a lot of value to the discussion.l
Oh, my mistake. I completely missed the part where Tsons, Demons, and CSM all got Warlocks...
It would be relevant if accurate. It's incorrect on it's face - this topic was *clearly* about warlocks. Claiming it was never about them is just wacky.
If the price spike is about 2 powers, I'll gladly exchange 2 powers for 1 power but cheaper. I don't need buffs if I run MSU list or reveal if I just want a bufflock to sit near Reapers all game and throw conceal on them.
Warlocks can only manifest one power per round. The "But it knows two powers" feels like just a minor boon. The powers themselves are powerful, and have higher-than-average WCs.
I doubt the duality is what made them bump the points so much.
Most other psykers can cast their 'main' power or Smite. Most other mini-smite warlocks aren't impacted by the Smite nerf. Warlocks have mini-smite, but don't ignore the Smite nerf.
Warlocks were bumped up because they feature in most (all?) top Aeldari competitive lists because they give you access to the Seer Council stratagem.
They are almost a tax for that single stratagem.
The fact that they're effected by the smite nerf and that they don't cast full smite aren't too important I don't think and are a trap. You aren't taking a Warlock to smite anything, you take them for the buffs. Same with the Spiritseer really, the guy I play against most often runs Craftworld and he rarely, if ever, uses Smite. Their powers are just too boss.
Warlocks were bumped up because they feature in most (all?) top Aeldari competitive lists because they give you access to the Seer Council stratagem.
They feature in competetive lists to buff the hell out of ynnari deathstars and for all the tacti-cool options you get (or rather, had) with Quicken.
What if I play MSU or just want to add a specialist detachment to my now ever-played-cause-elites-didn't-have-enough-CP battalion and need a cheap lieutenant? I now have to pay for one same amount as a small squad of troops. What if I want something else than a psyker? Run multiple autarches with glaves? We don't even have a customizable Autarch miniature. Meh.
I'm still not sure what you mean about Smite and other psykers having 2+ powers. Those with more powers cost more I think?
The duality of powers is nice and it's unique. Instead of having only 6 powers to choose from Craftworld psykers have 12 and can take 2 for 1. Is it a huge deal? I don't think so. But it can certainly make the difference in certain situations.
I think they should be 50 pts. Conclave Warlocks should be 40 or even 35 pts and Spiritseers should be 70 - 75 pts imo. It's a real shame that Conclaves are so badly costed. They need to be way cheaper to be worthwhile, or they need another bonus to account for the loss of character protection.
Shadenuat wrote: They feature in competetive lists to buff the hell out of ynnari deathstars and for all the tacti-cool options you get (or rather, had) with Quicken.
As well as Seer Council yea. Either way if a unit consistently features in the top lists of a faction it often gets a point increase.
I'm refering to the claim that Warlocks are too good because they have "two powers", such as Conceal and Reveal. I too think it's nice and unique, but not a huge deal. In part because all psykers have at least 2 powers, and warlocks get an extra one, but the 'freebe' everyone gets (smite) is weaker for them.
Xenomancers wrote: It makes sense to me that especially skilled psychic daemonic armies should be immune to the energies they practically live in.
Only imperial/eldar psykers should perils IMO. GK/inquisitors should also be immune - the are specially trained to harness the warp/fight warp beings.
I suspect you're the only one that this makes sense to, then, if you think someone like Eldrad should have a chance to peril but not some newbie Inquisitor because of their "special training."
You do realize that the eldar practically destroyed themselves and created a chaos god with their misuse of their psychic energies? They should be the most likely to perils. They protect themselves with runes and stones which is game terms make them practically immune to perils. That's fine with me - that is cool and fluffy. They should not be immune though.
Now they have their whole society around avoiding that. Chaos is the most self destructive force ever. They shouldn't be immune either. See how easy it is to do that?
Warlocks were bumped up because they feature in most (all?) top Aeldari competitive lists because they give you access to the Seer Council stratagem.
They feature in competetive lists to buff the hell out of ynnari deathstars and for all the tacti-cool options you get (or rather, had) with Quicken.
What if I play MSU or just want to add a specialist detachment to my now ever-played-cause-elites-didn't-have-enough-CP battalion and need a cheap lieutenant? I now have to pay for one same amount as a small squad of troops. What if I want something else than a psyker? Run multiple autarches with glaves? We don't even have a customizable Autarch miniature. Meh.
100% chance to die on perils PLUS explode, and because mortal wounds carry over to his units, when he perils he automatically kills 2d3 rubric marines, no questions asked. You know, the kind of models that go for 20 points with 5" movement and sport a glorified bolter and nothing else.
We don't even have a customizable Autarch miniature. Meh.
