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9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/23 21:27:43


Post by: feeder


From CBC

I hope all our T-dot Dakkanaughts are safe.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 00:35:01


Post by: creeping-deth87


I live like 10 minutes away from this intersection. I suppose it was only a matter of time before something like this happened in Toronto. My heart goes out to the families of the people who died.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 15:38:55


Post by: TheAuldGrump


Death toll up to ten now. :(

The Auld Grump


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 15:46:14


Post by: ChargerIIC


And suspect info is in...he's a member of the Incel community and was hoping for Death By Cop.

This is going to spur a ton of debate. Between being part of an unpopular and mostly 'white male' community and the fact that the Candian Polic Officer managed to avoid shooting his butt, I suspect my facebook feed is going to explode.

*checks* Yes. Yes it is.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 16:18:17


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Did they confirm the incel thing? All I saw was vague pictures taken of a monitor instead of even a screenshot. Tragic that so many people died because of another idiot with some grudge against the world.

If the incel thing is true, between this and the US case can't wait for a new terrorist watchlist.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 16:27:57


Post by: feeder


I haven't seen the incel thing confirmed, and what I have seen is pretty shaky evidence. We will see what the investigation turns up.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 16:35:29


Post by: whembly


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I live like 10 minutes away from this intersection. I suppose it was only a matter of time before something like this happened in Toronto. My heart goes out to the families of the people who died.

Why is it a "matter of time"???

...and "incel'? Man... learn something new every day... o.O


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 16:39:31


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Yeah the incel world is an extremely dark and demented world you never knew about, pretty creepy. Its so absurd its almost comical if it hadn't already claimed at least 6 lives.

Now we just wait for them to make the guy talk and maybe we can learn what motivated this guy. He wasn't on any radical watchlist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I live like 10 minutes away from this intersection. I suppose it was only a matter of time before something like this happened in Toronto. My heart goes out to the families of the people who died.

Why is it a "matter of time"???

I can only assume that is a reference to religious extremist terrorism of a certain kind that some think will inevitably happen.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 17:10:32


Post by: Blacksails


Major respect to the officer for how he handled the situation.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 17:15:09


Post by: feeder


 Blacksails wrote:
Major respect to the officer for how he handled the situation.


Indeed. Video of the arrest

"Kill me!"
"No, get down."
"I have a gun in my pocket!"
"I don't care, get down."

Solid cop.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 18:33:41


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yeah the incel world is an extremely dark and demented world you never knew about, pretty creepy. Its so absurd its almost comical if it hadn't already claimed at least 6 lives.

Now we just wait for them to make the guy talk and maybe we can learn what motivated this guy. He wasn't on any radical watchlist.


I had never heard of Incel until this thread - and I have to admit it makes no sense to me.

I am as plain as the south end of a north bound mule, and have a lovely wife that I love with all my heart - being a jerk is the surest way to be 'involuntarily celibate'. Blaming it on the women is... just plain dumb.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I live like 10 minutes away from this intersection. I suppose it was only a matter of time before something like this happened in Toronto. My heart goes out to the families of the people who died.

Why is it a "matter of time"???

I can only assume that is a reference to religious extremist terrorism of a certain kind that some think will inevitably happen.


More that it was only a matter of time before a mass shooting or similar event took place in Canada, I suspect. After all, why should the US have all the fun?

A big thumbs up for the way the police officer handled the arrest - he remained calm, and acted in a competent manner. I would have been sorely tempted to put the boot in when the suspect was down on the ground.

The Auld Grump


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 18:54:47


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yeah the incel world is an extremely dark and demented world you never knew about, pretty creepy. Its so absurd its almost comical if it hadn't already claimed at least 6 lives.

Now we just wait for them to make the guy talk and maybe we can learn what motivated this guy. He wasn't on any radical watchlist.


I had never heard of Incel until this thread - and I have to admit it makes no sense to me.

I am as plain as the south end of a north bound mule, and have a lovely wife that I love with all my heart - being a jerk is the surest way to be 'involuntarily celibate'. Blaming it on the women is... just plain dumb.

Very dumb, self fulfilling prophecy levels of stupid. But remember that young man who killed 6 women over women not throwing themselves at him in the US a few years ago?

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I live like 10 minutes away from this intersection. I suppose it was only a matter of time before something like this happened in Toronto. My heart goes out to the families of the people who died.

Why is it a "matter of time"???

I can only assume that is a reference to religious extremist terrorism of a certain kind that some think will inevitably happen.


More that it was only a matter of time before a mass shooting or similar event took place in Canada, I suspect. After all, why should the US have all the fun?

A big thumbs up for the way the police officer handled the arrest - he remained calm, and acted in a competent manner. I would have been sorely tempted to put the boot in when the suspect was down on the ground.

The Auld Grump

Uhm... Sad to say Canada isn't new to these mass murders. Last year a man killed 6 people in a Quebec mosque.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 18:55:31


Post by: feeder


 whembly wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I live like 10 minutes away from this intersection. I suppose it was only a matter of time before something like this happened in Toronto. My heart goes out to the families of the people who died.

Why is it a "matter of time"???

I can only assume that is a reference to religious extremist terrorism of a certain kind that some think will inevitably happen.


More that it was only a matter of time before a mass shooting or similar event took place in Canada, I suspect. After all, why should the US have all the fun?

A big thumbs up for the way the police officer handled the arrest - he remained calm, and acted in a competent manner. I would have been sorely tempted to put the boot in when the suspect was down on the ground.

The Auld Grump


Unfortunately, Canada has already had several mass shootings. The most infamous over here is the 1989 university shooting where a man murdered 14 women in a sexist attack.

More recently, last year saw the attack on a mosque by an alt-right nutjob.

There are more.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 19:07:26


Post by: Galas


Wow, I know a couple of guys that could be absolutely part of the Incel group.

Man, what lack of sex do to some frustrated individuals. Surely the blame is on the other gender not in your lack of social skills.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 19:25:08


Post by: Talizvar


That was about an hour up the highway from me.
Could have been anyone including my family on that well travelled street.

Says something when the guy wanted to suicide by cop.
The best "revenge" was taking him alive.

The cop decided to do things the hard way, very well done assessing if he was being bluffed what was being pointed at him.
Stones of steel on that one, would be interesting to know why he held off on being justified to discharge his firearm.

Unfortunately, there are some 9 families experiencing a loss.
What an incredibly stupid/tragic/selfish means of adding to what obviously was an attempted suicide.
I am sure this guy's life sucked in a big way to get in the headspace he did but frankly: I do not want to ever hear what he has to say.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 20:15:47


Post by: John Prins


 Galas wrote:

Man, what lack of sex do to some frustrated individuals. Surely the blame is on the other gender not in your lack of social skills.


He seems to have had deeper problems than lack of social skills - the BBC article on him mentions some pretty erratic behavior. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43877137.

It's not a lack of sex causing it. Most people figure out how to masturbate.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Talizvar wrote:

Stones of steel on that one, would be interesting to know why he held off on being justified to discharge his firearm.


He probably didn't want to go home and tell his wife that he killed somebody today. Police are just people, after all, and most people don't want to take other people's lives. Police train for it, but thank God that training doesn't make it automatic.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 21:45:00


Post by: Howard A Treesong


You can’t pretend masturbation is a meaningful replacement for sex. People feel genuine frustration by a lack of intimacy in their lives.

Anyway, that’s by the by. The issue here is that people like him and Elliot Roger and others like them is that they’re narcissists, unpleasant self absorbed people. Who the hell writes a 100,000 word rambling manifesto about how hard done by they are by women? People like these don’t get girlfriends because because they can’t socialise properly like normal healthy people. They think they have an automatic right to relationships and blame everyone else for their lack of having one. But most women would avoid them like the plague, exactly because they’re egotistical creeps with violent, misogynistic tendencies. What is there to like?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/24 22:34:25


Post by: Ketara


Posted online just beforehand.


I can go one better than links and give examples of the sort of things Incels say. Spoilered because it is incredibly misogynistic and offensive.

Spoiler:















You get the idea.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 06:28:19


Post by: Witzkatz


And here's where I'm wondering if self-proclaimed "movements" like this could've ever formed without the internet. It's like a self-helf group for all the wrong reasons, in all the wrong ways, turned to 11.

I first heard of incels via a 9gag meme where somebody un-ironically called sex a "female resource" that is "controlled by females" and not available to incels like the author. So he suggested that new laws are opened up that, whenever young, attractive females died, this resource would not "go wasted" and a system could be put in place where incels could have sex with her dead body at the earliest convenience after death. You can't make this gak up.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 06:55:57


Post by: Disciple of Fate


I have seen the picture of the post Ketara shows too, but still no real official confirmation on this right?

 Witzkatz wrote:
And here's where I'm wondering if self-proclaimed "movements" like this could've ever formed without the internet. It's like a self-helf group for all the wrong reasons, in all the wrong ways, turned to 11.

I first heard of incels via a 9gag meme where somebody un-ironically called sex a "female resource" that is "controlled by females" and not available to incels like the author. So he suggested that new laws are opened up that, whenever young, attractive females died, this resource would not "go wasted" and a system could be put in place where incels could have sex with her dead body at the earliest convenience after death. You can't make this gak up.

Honestly I don't know what's worse, the above or the notion of what mothers and sisters 'owe' them as family.

Iirc the incel group was kickes off of reddit after trying to get legal advice in another group on legal advice on how to get away with rape. Seriously, considering what is allowed to dwell on reddit, it makes you think what it takes to be too toxic.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 07:04:49


Post by: Da Boss


It could be a fake account or whatever, but it seems like it's his for now. (Certainly people rarely look for such rigorous burdens of proof if the person involved is ...from other certain groups)

The Incel community is the very definition of male entitlement.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 15:55:48


Post by: jhe90


All this because a guy was frustrated about not getting Laid once in a while?

of all the damn things in the world... sadly you cannoy even make this gak up.

its a sad event, and for no damned reason.
hopefully he spends a VERY long time in jail. never seeing the outside of a concrete room would be appropriate.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 16:05:52


Post by: feeder


Incel is just one of many on the long list of this guy's problems. He briefly joined and then was kicked out of the Canadian military. We have guys in the military who get winded just opening the door to Tim Horton's.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 16:09:26


Post by: Disciple of Fate


I think after killing 10 people its pretty safe to assume he will never get out again.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 16:11:01


Post by: djones520


 feeder wrote:
Incel is just one of many on the long list of this guy's problems. He briefly joined and then was kicked out of the Canadian military. We have guys in the military who get winded just opening the door to Tim Horton's.


I was deployed with one of your F-18 squadrons this winter. While most of them were outstanding chaps... yes, your characterization of some of them is not wrong.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 16:15:00


Post by: feeder


 djones520 wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Incel is just one of many on the long list of this guy's problems. He briefly joined and then was kicked out of the Canadian military. We have guys in the military who get winded just opening the door to Tim Horton's.


I was deployed with one of your F-18 squadrons this winter. While most of them were outstanding chaps... yes, your characterization of some of them is not wrong.


CF-18, tyvm, the C stands for 'cool'


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 16:57:58


Post by: Xenomancers


 Galas wrote:
Wow, I know a couple of guys that could be absolutely part of the Incel group.

Man, what lack of sex do to some frustrated individuals. Surely the blame is on the other gender not in your lack of social skills.

Nah man - look at some data on dating sites. Men really are at a huge disadvantage in the game. There is no question that it does and will drive some men crazy.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 17:04:50


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Wow, I know a couple of guys that could be absolutely part of the Incel group.

Man, what lack of sex do to some frustrated individuals. Surely the blame is on the other gender not in your lack of social skills.

Nah man - look at some data on dating sites. Men really are at a huge disadvantage in the game. There is no question that it does and will drive some men crazy.

The bold part makes online dating sound like a field day for lesbians

Men are at a disadvantage? To women? Aren't those women looking to date men?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 17:05:24


Post by: feeder


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Wow, I know a couple of guys that could be absolutely part of the Incel group.

Man, what lack of sex do to some frustrated individuals. Surely the blame is on the other gender not in your lack of social skills.

Nah man - look at some data on dating sites. Men really are at a huge disadvantage in the game. There is no question that it does and will drive some men crazy.


No. In no way does anything drive men "crazy". Absent a legit mental disorder like schizophrenia everyone is 100% responsible for their own actions.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 17:11:31


Post by: jhe90


 feeder wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Incel is just one of many on the long list of this guy's problems. He briefly joined and then was kicked out of the Canadian military. We have guys in the military who get winded just opening the door to Tim Horton's.


I was deployed with one of your F-18 squadrons this winter. While most of them were outstanding chaps... yes, your characterization of some of them is not wrong.


CF-18, tyvm, the C stands for 'cool'


I'm guessing this guy was a abit of a loon to be kicked out and not even used for a support or sat typing in a office.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 17:49:01


Post by: Blacksails


 feeder wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Incel is just one of many on the long list of this guy's problems. He briefly joined and then was kicked out of the Canadian military. We have guys in the military who get winded just opening the door to Tim Horton's.


I was deployed with one of your F-18 squadrons this winter. While most of them were outstanding chaps... yes, your characterization of some of them is not wrong.


CF-18, tyvm, the C stands for 'cool'


I'll one up the pedantry; they're actually CF-188.

And yeah, we have a bit of a...health problem in the CF.

As for the topic, the guy was in for two weeks, and then left. The release process takes a while, so on record it shows something like 2 months in service. There are two stories, where either he was asked/forced to quit, or did so on his own when he realized he didn't fit in/no one liked him/he couldn't hack it.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 17:54:26


Post by: lliu


My friend literally lives near the corner. Really a tragedy.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 17:55:35


Post by: feeder


 Blacksails wrote:
 feeder wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Incel is just one of many on the long list of this guy's problems. He briefly joined and then was kicked out of the Canadian military. We have guys in the military who get winded just opening the door to Tim Horton's.


I was deployed with one of your F-18 squadrons this winter. While most of them were outstanding chaps... yes, your characterization of some of them is not wrong.


CF-18, tyvm, the C stands for 'cool'


I'll one up the pedantry; they're actually CF-188.


Ooof, hoisted by my own petard!

As for the topic, the guy was in for two weeks, and then left. The release process takes a while, so on record it shows something like 2 months in service. There are two stories, where either he was asked/forced to quit, or did so on his own when he realized he didn't fit in/no one liked him/he couldn't hack it.


I wonder if he blamed the other guys for that one, too?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 18:09:21


Post by: Blacksails


 feeder wrote:


Ooof, hoisted by my own petard!



I live to serve.

I wonder if he blamed the other guys for that one, too?


I don't think someone of his...leanings is the kind to have any sort of introspection and realize most of his problems are of his own doing.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 20:24:40


Post by: Mr. Burning


In Cel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43881931

I never knew this was a thing, but now I know I am saddened that I am not really that surprised.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/25 20:52:19


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Mr. Burning wrote:
In Cel

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43881931

I never knew this was a thing, but now I know I am saddened that I am not really that surprised.


Wow, this bit:
The attitudes of men who visit the boards vary widely, but online they frequently vent anger against sexually prolific men ("Chads") and women ("Stacys"). More generally, incel forums often include rants aimed at feminism and women.

is about the nicest thing someone could possibly write about what is basically a misogynistic, racist and psychopathic hellhole of a community.

So FB confirmed that was his post, well then time for an incel watchlist.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 02:06:56


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Honestly, if you ever read what incels write about it was sort of just a matter of time 'till something happened about this. Can't wait for the MGTOW mass murders.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 02:21:01


Post by: daedalus


It's a damn shame that mental health treatment is reactive.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 04:37:04


Post by: sebster


 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah man - look at some data on dating sites. Men really are at a huge disadvantage in the game. There is no question that it does and will drive some men crazy.


When there is an equal number of men and women on the planet, and each relationship includes a man and a woman, it is a mathematical impossibility for men to be at a disadvantage compared to women.

What we see instead is observer bias. Consider a population of 10 men and 10 women, where the custom is for the men to approach the women. There's five women that all the guys want, and every guy contacts each of those girls. Those girls take the five most desirable men. On a simple level there's 5 men who have been rejected, which makes it look tougher for the men than the women. But note there's also 5 women who were never contacted at all, they were also rejected, just not actively.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 05:30:51


Post by: daedalus


 sebster wrote:

What we see instead is observer bias. Consider a population of 10 men and 10 women, where the custom is for the men to approach the women. There's five women that all the guys want, and every guy contacts each of those girls. Those girls take the five most desirable men. On a simple level there's 5 men who have been rejected, which makes it look tougher for the men than the women. But note there's also 5 women who were never contacted at all, they were also rejected, just not actively.


One time a guy told me that he had a friend who, in college, would literally go up to every woman he met and would ask them outright if they wanted to have sex with him. So the story goes, the friend actually wound up getting laid more than anyone else the dude knew. His conclusion was that quantity overcame quality, and just being confident and upfront enough counts for a lot too. This guy was a total stranger who was at a ren faire, dressed up vaguely as a jester. He imparted this wisdom to me apropos of nothing, and then just kind of walked off after I, surprised, kind of just stammered back a vague agreement that it sounded possible that it could have happened. It was probably in the top ten of strangest things that's ever happened to me.

Obviously I have no idea if his story is true, but that conversation certainly did happen, and that guy certainly was bizarre.

If his thesis is true, then the solution would be for each of the men to, in order of preference, approach each of the women, not just the upper half. Obviously there's economic considerations (time and money and probably some others), race conditions (because you want to beat the other guys to the most likely women to be amicable), and more than a couple risk factors all a part of why that's not done, and the guys would probably run into difficulty at least midway through the exercise as the odds that the women would notice the men talking to other women would scale as each event occurred. You could probably build quite the model of the most efficient way to do this. I think doing so was briefly a funny bit in A Beautiful Mind. I'm not sure if optimizing that would have moral implications.

I think it's really just about finding the subset of your type that also has you within the subset of their type. That's kind of stupidly obvious, but this is apparently enough of an issue that some people somewhere are having severe problems with it. Personally, I suspect that this is because in order for that to actually be successful, you'd have to know not only what your type is (which, speaking with other guys appears much harder for them to figure out than you'd think) and you'd also have to know yourself enough as well as the other person to know if you'd turn out to be a good fit for them. While that's not something you could possibly know when you walk up to a woman at the kinds of places where you do that sort of thing, I think that's the part that a lot of people don't get even somewhat into the relationship. I also think a world where it's not considered uncouth for anyone to just go up to anyone else and speak plainly about their intentions would be a real nice one to live in, but I'm sure that's one of those statements that would get me a "no gak" response.

Also a lot of people are dirty basement trolls. I firmly suspect that no one likes a dirty basement troll. But that is, at least in theory, a condition that is curable.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 05:38:24


Post by: Peregrine


 sebster wrote:
When there is an equal number of men and women on the planet, and each relationship includes a man and a woman, it is a mathematical impossibility for men to be at a disadvantage compared to women.

What we see instead is observer bias. Consider a population of 10 men and 10 women, where the custom is for the men to approach the women. There's five women that all the guys want, and every guy contacts each of those girls. Those girls take the five most desirable men. On a simple level there's 5 men who have been rejected, which makes it look tougher for the men than the women. But note there's also 5 women who were never contacted at all, they were also rejected, just not actively.


You're not thinking like an incel/anti-feminist here.

First of all, the 5 women who were never contacted all are not women, they're some kind of monstrous beasts who are probably fat and therefore have a sexual market value of zero. Even four of the five women who got partners are probably low in value and just going to cheat with Chad, but it's better than nothing. Only the single hottest woman out of the group counts, so what we really see here is 90% of men being rejected by an entitled slut who thinks she has the right to condemn decent men to eternal virginity. If you aren't getting the hottest women then why bother living?

Second, all ten of the women are sleeping with the single most desirable man in the group (even if they use some pathetic cuck for their paycheck while cheating on the side), violating your assumption that there could possibly be five women who don't get contacted. Chad gets all of the women, 9/10 men get rejected and/or cucked.

In conclusion, dating is biased against men and if you aren't a billionaire with a huge you will die alone. feminism for denying good men the love they deserve.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 05:43:13


Post by: daedalus


One man directly interacting with only one women at a time means that in a given encounter, for each man that there's a boolean outcome. Either she accepts them or not. I wonder what the outcome would be if the woman was approached by two men simultaneously, creating a comparative situation where the possibilities were A, B, or null. Like, obviously, the odds of A and B individually are reduced by the presence of the other, but I wonder if the chances of success of A + B would be greater than the chance of the null outcome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:

First of all, the 5 women who were never contacted all are not women, they're some kind of monstrous beasts who are probably fat and therefore have a sexual market value of zero. Even four of the five women who got partners are probably low in value and just going to cheat with Chad, but it's better than nothing. Only the single hottest woman out of the group counts, so what we really see here is 90% of men being rejected by an entitled slut who thinks she has the right to condemn decent men to eternal virginity. If you aren't getting the hottest women then why bother living?

Second, all ten of the women are sleeping with the single most desirable man in the group (even if they use some pathetic cuck for their paycheck while cheating on the side), violating your assumption that there could possibly be five women who don't get contacted. Chad gets all of the women, 9/10 men get rejected and/or cucked.

In conclusion, dating is biased against men and if you aren't a billionaire with a huge you will die alone. feminism for denying good men the love they deserve.


Ugh. Sounds like dirty basement trolls then. And some utterly dysfunctional sense of insecurities.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 05:52:29


Post by: Peregrine


 daedalus wrote:
Ugh. Sounds like dirty basement trolls then. And some utterly dysfunctional sense of insecurities.


The terrifying thing is that's the toned-down version of it, because I'd feel too dirty writing a more realistic version. But there's a previous post in the thread with screencaps of actual incel posts.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 06:22:08


Post by: sebster


 daedalus wrote:
One time a guy told me that he had a friend who, in college, would literally go up to every woman he met and would ask them outright if they wanted to have sex with him. So the story goes, the friend actually wound up getting laid more than anyone else the dude knew. His conclusion was that quantity overcame quality, and just being confident and upfront enough counts for a lot too. This guy was a total stranger who was at a ren faire, dressed up vaguely as a jester. He imparted this wisdom to me apropos of nothing, and then just kind of walked off after I, surprised, kind of just stammered back a vague agreement that it sounded possible that it could have happened. It was probably in the top ten of strangest things that's ever happened to me.

Obviously I have no idea if his story is true, but that conversation certainly did happen, and that guy certainly was bizarre.

If his thesis is true, then the solution would be for each of the men to, in order of preference, approach each of the women, not just the upper half. Obviously there's economic considerations (time and money and probably some others), race conditions (because you want to beat the other guys to the most likely women to be amicable), and more than a couple risk factors all a part of why that's not done, and the guys would probably run into difficulty at least midway through the exercise as the odds that the women would notice the men talking to other women would scale as each event occurred. You could probably build quite the model of the most efficient way to do this. I think doing so was briefly a funny bit in A Beautiful Mind. I'm not sure if optimizing that would have moral implications.


There is definitely something to it. Thing is, women are people too. They have their own unique preferences, and their own day to day issues, so on any given day there's every chance that if you proposition enough girls you'll stumble upon one who just really wants a fling and who thinks you're attractive enough.

I'm not for one second saying anyone should look at the Pick Up Artist thing, it's some really nasty crap that's a gateway drug to the InCel stuff this murderous donkey-cave was in to. However... one thing the PUA community does is train men to actually just ask, over and over again, if a girl is interested. By teaching a bunch of made up psychological nonsense, they turn asking a girl out in to more of a process than a personal act, when you get rejected the first 20 times it isn't a soul crushing rejection but just part of the process. As a result, it gets men to just keep asking, which by the simple process of shots on goal means they will meet with some success, even though all the individual psychological tricks are gibberish that only hurt their chances.

I think it's really just about finding the subset of your type that also has you within the subset of their type. That's kind of stupidly obvious, but this is apparently enough of an issue that some people somewhere are having severe problems with it. Personally, I suspect that this is because in order for that to actually be successful, you'd have to know not only what your type is (which, speaking with other guys appears much harder for them to figure out than you'd think) and you'd also have to know yourself enough as well as the other person to know if you'd turn out to be a good fit for them.


I like that, finding your type of subset that matches with their subset. There's another part though, because as well as having all these varied subsets, there is also something of a hierarchy. There are girls that almost every guy will go for, so you have to have some really good features to be in with a chance. A lot of guys will get pissy that some girls won't look at a guy just because he's a bit overweight and don't dress that well. But those guys never look at the girls who are a bit overweight and don't dress that well. It isn't a strict hierarchy, our preferences are all a little different from each other, so there's that element of matching subsets you mentioned.

So it's a combination of the two things, knowing what you actually want and what you are and who that appeals to, and being realistic about who is likely to date you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
You're not thinking like an incel/anti-feminist here.


That's possibly the nicest thing anyone's said about me

First of all, the 5 women who were never contacted all are not women, they're some kind of monstrous beasts who are probably fat and therefore have a sexual market value of zero. Even four of the five women who got partners are probably low in value and just going to cheat with Chad, but it's better than nothing. Only the single hottest woman out of the group counts, so what we really see here is 90% of men being rejected by an entitled slut who thinks she has the right to condemn decent men to eternal virginity. If you aren't getting the hottest women then why bother living?


The really sad thing is that so many guys are chasing the hottest girl not just out of personal attraction, but for the ego boost of being the guy with the hottest girl.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 06:58:17


Post by: Jadenim


There was a great Infinite Monkey cage episode about love, relationships and sex from a few years ago; one of the panellists pointed out that mathematically most people end up with less than their best match, because our insecurities mean we undersell ourselves and miss out on better partners because they’re too attractive/too intelligent/wouldn’t be interested, etc.

Seb’s and Daedalus’ examples are actually the statistically correct way to find a mate; start at the top and ask everybody. Of course that takes balls of steel and a willingness to be rejected, a lot, but technically correct is the best form of correct?

As far as the Incel thing, wow. I knew humanity has a pretty nasty side, but I never imagined that level of entitlement and bigotry was a thing. And in Canada, of all places! Well, you learn something everyday, as they say. Sometimes wish you didn’t, but hey ho...


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 07:05:02


Post by: Disciple of Fate


If you ever want to make your eyes bleed, reddit has a group called Inceltears. There people basically collect the most outrageous and demented things said on incel forums. It gives a pretty accurate view of how vile the incel community actually gets. These aren't 'rants' as the BBC calls it, its an ideology, a worldview, a subculture formed thanks to the internet.

The ironic thing is, if they really didn't want to be virgins they could pay for it. But it really isn't about virginity, its about some wacked out red pill "women should be throwing themselves at me" levels of delusion. They don't even say women honestly, they have all kinds of terms to devalue them like "femoids".


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 07:23:39


Post by: sebster


 Jadenim wrote:
There was a great Infinite Monkey cage episode about love, relationships and sex from a few years ago; one of the panellists pointed out that mathematically most people end up with less than their best match, because our insecurities mean we undersell ourselves and miss out on better partners because they’re too attractive/too intelligent/wouldn’t be interested, etc.


But what if your partner is also insecure and underselling themselves?

Maybe it's more that there are people who undersell themselves and people who oversell themselves, and the undersellers will all be in relationships, while the oversellers will only be in a relationship if they happen to stumble on to someone who undersells themselves at least as much as the overseller is overselling himself.

I swear that sentence makes sense.

Seb’s and Daedalus’ examples are actually the statistically correct way to find a mate; start at the top and ask everybody.


That wasn't quite what I was getting at, but it's way more concise and probably a lot more practical than the stuff I was talking about, so I'm just going to pretend its what I was saying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The ironic thing is, if they really didn't want to be virgins they could pay for it. But it really isn't about virginity, its about some wacked out red pill "women should be throwing themselves at me" levels of delusion. They don't even say women honestly, they have all kinds of terms to devalue them like "femoids".


Excellent point, it isn't about sex, its about status. More precisely, its about status as defined by a particularly toxic masculine culture.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 09:32:26


Post by: Da Boss


I've seen that they refer to intimacy as "interaction with holes". I mean for real, this is the sort of thing fascist regimes do to language to dehumanize those they want to other.

fething depressing gak. I hope this subculture dies out ASAP. I can remember being a lonely and insecure young fella and I can definitely remember feeling like I was never going to in a relationship with anyone. But I didn't have someone basically telling me "Yeah, you're right, but did you also know this is basically a giant conspiracy against you?". Who knows, if I had, maybe I'd be on one of these fething fora now. Gah.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 09:38:19


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 sebster wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The ironic thing is, if they really didn't want to be virgins they could pay for it. But it really isn't about virginity, its about some wacked out red pill "women should be throwing themselves at me" levels of delusion. They don't even say women honestly, they have all kinds of terms to devalue them like "femoids".


Excellent point, it isn't about sex, its about status. More precisely, its about status as defined by a particularly toxic masculine culture.

Yes, beyond toxic masculinity it even crosses into racial and eugenic territory. They think of themselves as the best men that the world just doesn't want to accept. Its a massive victim complex for people with equally massive ego's: Incels can do no wrong, incels are the best, anything an incel does is the fault of society forcing them to do it. This is a community that actually celebrates a man that killed 6 women and now a man that killed 10 people and they are dying to find out how many of those were young women.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
I've seen that they refer to intimacy as "interaction with holes". I mean for real, this is the sort of thing fascist regimes do to language to dehumanize those they want to other.

fething depressing gak. I hope this subculture dies out ASAP. I can remember being a lonely and insecure young fella and I can definitely remember feeling like I was never going to in a relationship with anyone. But I didn't have someone basically telling me "Yeah, you're right, but did you also know this is basically a giant conspiracy against you?". Who knows, if I had, maybe I'd be on one of these fething fora now. Gah.

That's because they don't consider women to be human, women can never be incels. Incels think of other people like we think of say chimpanzees. Funny that you mention fascism, because it basically has traits of it such as a diehard belief that they are the (genetically) superior men.

I don't think its going to die out soon. Its an up and coming thing like the red pill people. There will always be the dissaffectionate or delusional to prey on. As they self impose this on themselves and actively work against ending their 'incel' life. The internet has just given them a larger reach and with things like this in the news it will likely only attract more.

And being a lonely and insecure young person is something almost everyone goes through at some point I think. Relationships never get easier. The difference is the mentality towards it. A few years ago Dakka had a thread about dating/sex, you saw others who had it difficult but by the end they managed to get into relationships or lose their virginity. You just have to get lucky meeting the right person/people.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 10:01:03


Post by: Da Boss


Sure, and in my case, moving out of my gak hole village and to university meant suddenly I met a lot of people who I could talk to more freely and so on, and that lead to romantic interactions.

It's a damn good point you make about them not considering women to be human beings. Worse than that is how they see women that they don't find attractive- as in, they may as well not exist at all in their world view.

I've been dredging the sewers of the internet since this attack, reading some of the garbage they spew. But a lot of them, when they divulge information about themselves, are around 18-20 years old. That gives me hope that they might grow out of it and change their ways, but then there are these insanely misanthropic 30+ year olds essentially grooming and radicalizing them. It's fething scary, and these guys are very manipulative.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 10:29:55


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Yes, their attitude towards 'less pretty' women, while hilariously ironic considering how they themselves often look (there was this one incel who never showered as a middle finger to society ), is a symptom of their massive ego. Why should the best settle for less? That guy who killed six people referred to himself as the closest person to a god on earth.

About growing out of it, I have my doubts. While they might lose the incel status, I have a hard time believing people who willingly got involved with such an utterly toxic worldview can just go back to normal. Those who get out seem like prime targets for the red pill movement.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 13:11:16


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Some do move past, I have one friend on Discord who used to be an incel, but I will agree a lot keep those thoughts and worldview.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/26 22:10:51


Post by: BaronIveagh


You know, it explains a lot about people that this sort of thing exists. Both the Incel thing and the mass murder because of it thing.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 00:07:29


Post by: daedalus


 Peregrine wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Ugh. Sounds like dirty basement trolls then. And some utterly dysfunctional sense of insecurities.


The terrifying thing is that's the toned-down version of it, because I'd feel too dirty writing a more realistic version. But there's a previous post in the thread with screencaps of actual incel posts.


I had deliberately avoided it because I tend to already fixate too much on how much of a horrible idea the internet was. But I'll stare into the abyss again.

Gonna wrap my notes in a spoiler because no one needs to read that stuff. If they click the button it's their fault.
Spoiler:

My notes:
"Real women a thing of the past."
"Little girls running around looking for a hand out"
- More women work for a living now than ever.
"I can only think of a handfull [sic] of date-able relationship worthy women out of the 1000s I know."
- I'm in my thirties, have moved multiple times, work in a Fortune 500 company with working offices on every continent that I interact with on a routine basis, and I don't think I could count 500 people I know. And you know thousands of women?
"I myself am a Demisexual"
- Uh, "Demisexual"
"Catholics worship Mary a girl who got pregnant at 12. Literally worshipping a 12 year old slut."
- Sidestepping concepts of divinity, in ancient Israel, that was marriage age. Women had little say in the matter, and were kinda basically treated as property.
"they should offer one of their female members as a "sacrificial" lamb of sorts"
- Why? The response wouldn't sway my opinion, but it might be a further indicator of what's wrong with this person.
(comments followed with "why bothers" and declarations from the community that they wouldn't do it)
"'Women don't owe you sex' is a flawed maxim if you look at it as a categorical imperative."
- I've read Kant, and you're no Kant, "r/Braincels". Also, the ramifications of the actions of an individual can never be applicable to a majority sharing one similar characteristic on a macro scale. THAT'S a categorical imperative, donkey-cave.

(I had to take a break to get another beer)

"This could be verbal / emotional attacks or physical chad violence against us" (there's a reference toward "ogrecels", whatever that is. The writer then goes on to blame women for "war, conflicts, economic pressures, and basically many of the world's problems due to their gatekeeping role in sex")
- I'm not sure what a "chad" is. I'm guessing a man who isn't too repulsive for sex? At any rate, a victim complex followed by admitting an inferiority complex. Literally, they "lack the genetics to make the cut".
(victim blaming rant about spousal abusers)
- Well, a victim blaming rant.
Katana guy
- It's a fething katana guy. Oh. Then there's comments afterward. Lots of disturbing sexual commentary about the poster's sister from others and the poster. That... really seems like something that someone should have done something about.
(Weird pumpkin comparison showing facial inferiority compared with other men)
- I.. I got nothing here.
(long rant projecting flaws admits a declaration of inferiority complex. literal dehumanization of women ["psychopaths", "evil", "have no thoughts or feelings"] the rant then goes on for a while, along with an attempt at lambasting anyone who would defend women. accusations that women are leading to the "destruction of society".)
- Irony on that last bit? Probably not. Poster has an avatar of a anime female with significant exposed cleavage


feth. Yeah. I've kind of been sitting here a while, still trying to figure out what the hell I just read. I want to say that these people are just the male version of "tumblrettes", but so then I guess there's crazy and angry and ranting, and then there's whatever the hell this is. And apparently they have consolidated communities?

Is there any chance this is just one psycho that hurt people caused by an elaborate 4chan fake-community-thing? Yeah, I'm sure I know the answer.

:(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Some do move past, I have one friend on Discord who used to be an incel, but I will agree a lot keep those thoughts and worldview.


What caused him to change? How do you change someone like that?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 02:35:44


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 daedalus wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Some do move past, I have one friend on Discord who used to be an incel, but I will agree a lot keep those thoughts and worldview.


What caused him to change? How do you change someone like that?

For him it was as simple as actually engaging in social situations we pushed him into. And with that the slow realization that not everyone is competing for sex. Took a while but he sort of came to an Epiphany. A lot of the reasons that people fall into this stuff is the same reasons a lot of people who didn't learn racism got pushed towards neo-nazism, they feel left out and marginalized, and this gives them something to blame. I am willing to bet that none of these guys have any female friends, they don't seem to realize that men and women are effectively the same.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 09:07:01


Post by: Ketara


Got some more gems here for those of you who want to keep staring into the abyss.
Spoiler:








The incel movement is weirdly split between young naive autistic men who can't figure sex/relationships out, and the equivalent men ten years older who never did and consequently blame women for it. The younger ones seem to post depressive stuff (which is fair enough) because they feel crappy about the 'Chads' at school/college getting laid whilst they don't. Meanwhile, the older ones have usually latched onto some sort of warped pickup artist methodology and sit there Emperor Palpatine King Nerd style whispering misogynistic crap in the younger ones ears; on account of the fact that it lets them feel validated about themselves and their own failures.

'Yes, yes. Let the hate flow through you. It's not your fault you were born inadequate, it's natural to want a relationship. It's those women, their whiteknights and their cucks. They're the ones stopping from getting what you want, what you need...'

etcetc


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 09:42:00


Post by: Peregrine


Awww, the incel wants to be treated like a terrorist. This should be arranged.



9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 10:37:00


Post by: Da Boss


That last one is utterly chilling.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 15:51:02


Post by: feeder


Seems like a bunch of sad little edgelords trying to one-up each other in their virtual circlejerk.

What a world.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:23:56


Post by: Deadnight


 daedalus wrote:


Gonna wrap my notes in a spoiler because no one needs to read that stuff. If they click the button it's their fault.



You know that Elliot Rodgers guy from a few years ago had a manifesto? Well, since the whole incel popped up in the news, I decided to read it out of a morbid curiosity to try and get an understanding of this alien perspective.

I wish I hadn't.

I would not recommend reading it - basically a hundred thousand words of hatred and disgust - unless you have a cast iron stomach. It was a Very disturbing and twisted read.

You literally cannot argue with that kind of hatred.



9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:26:30


Post by: Yodhrin


 Ketara wrote:
Got some more gems here for those of you who want to keep staring into the abyss.
Spoiler:








The incel movement is weirdly split between young naive autistic men who can't figure sex/relationships out, and the equivalent men ten years older who never did and consequently blame women for it. The younger ones seem to post depressive stuff (which is fair enough) because they feel crappy about the 'Chads' at school/college getting laid whilst they don't. Meanwhile, the older ones have usually latched onto some sort of warped pickup artist methodology and sit there Emperor Palpatine King Nerd style whispering misogynistic crap in the younger ones ears; on account of the fact that it lets them feel validated about themselves and their own failures.

'Yes, yes. Let the hate flow through you. It's not your fault you were born inadequate, it's natural to want a relationship. It's those women, their whiteknights and their cucks. They're the ones stopping from getting what you want, what you need...'

etcetc


You're a mod, get a fething grip on yourself. I'll bet you any amount of money that the vast majority of these gits are far more like you than they are like us yet the first thing you jump to is "lol autistics".


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:31:27


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I've seen a lot of likely neurotypicals self-diagnose themselves as Autistic because they were having trouble socializing and could or would not change their behaviors. Perhaps the mod was referring to these types?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:32:42


Post by: Xenomancers


 sebster wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah man - look at some data on dating sites. Men really are at a huge disadvantage in the game. There is no question that it does and will drive some men crazy.


When there is an equal number of men and women on the planet, and each relationship includes a man and a woman, it is a mathematical impossibility for men to be at a disadvantage compared to women.

What we see instead is observer bias. Consider a population of 10 men and 10 women, where the custom is for the men to approach the women. There's five women that all the guys want, and every guy contacts each of those girls. Those girls take the five most desirable men. On a simple level there's 5 men who have been rejected, which makes it look tougher for the men than the women. But note there's also 5 women who were never contacted at all, they were also rejected, just not actively.

This isn't how it actually works.

It works more like this in the online dating.

Hot girls get whatever they want
Average girls get whatever they want
Hot guys have a pretty good time
Not so cute girls have a pretty good time
Average guys get almost nothing
not so cute guys need not apply.

Pretty much - it sucks to be a not so cute guy.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:37:50


Post by: Yodhrin


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I've seen a lot of likely neurotypicals self-diagnose themselves as Autistic because they were having trouble socializing and could or would not change their behaviors. Perhaps the mod was referring to these types?


Perhaps it's a gakky thing to say regardless of whether he means it as-written, in the same misused sense as you mention, or just as a shorthand. Perhaps a mod should know better, given they're ostensibly a responsible person in a community that's likely to have a reasonable amount of people with an ASD in it.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:44:42


Post by: feeder


 Xenomancers wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah man - look at some data on dating sites. Men really are at a huge disadvantage in the game. There is no question that it does and will drive some men crazy.


When there is an equal number of men and women on the planet, and each relationship includes a man and a woman, it is a mathematical impossibility for men to be at a disadvantage compared to women.

What we see instead is observer bias. Consider a population of 10 men and 10 women, where the custom is for the men to approach the women. There's five women that all the guys want, and every guy contacts each of those girls. Those girls take the five most desirable men. On a simple level there's 5 men who have been rejected, which makes it look tougher for the men than the women. But note there's also 5 women who were never contacted at all, they were also rejected, just not actively.

This isn't how it actually works.

It works more like this in the online dating.

Hot girls get whatever they want
Average girls get whatever they want
Hot guys have a pretty good time
Not so cute girls have a pretty good time
Average guys get almost nothing
not so cute guys need not apply.

Pretty much - it sucks to be a not so cute guy.


According to this, based on my (admittedly limited) online dating experiences, I'm a 'hot guy'

We may want to re-think the chart.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:48:35


Post by: daedalus


 Xenomancers wrote:

This isn't how it actually works.

It works more like this in the online dating.

Hot girls get whatever they want
Average girls get whatever they want
Hot guys have a pretty good time
Not so cute girls have a pretty good time
Average guys get almost nothing
not so cute guys need not apply.

Pretty much - it sucks to be a not so cute guy.


gak. I'm a fat balding dude who looks about 10 years more haggard than I actually am. Back when I did the online dating thing, I never really got much back for the effort i put into it. I started slapping pictures of myself on kayaks and out camping and stuff like that and it went from me putting a few hours of effort into trying to get a date mostly unsuccessfully to me putting a couple hours effort in and usually having a date i was more excited about (and some of them would contact me first!).

I didn't even lie on the profile. Didn't have to. Just needed to show that I was active and doing interesting things.

Women aren't NEARLY as fixated on looks as men think they are. If they are, they're probably not the ones worth dating anyway.

I can tell you what women are fixated on. At least the ones I've been around. They're usually fixated on confidence, stability (economic and personal), and usually just a desire for someone to not be an utter dullard.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:51:00


Post by: Manchu


Ketara's post already qualifies the statement in question: "young naive autistic men who can't figure sex/relationships out," i.e., recognizing the difference between finding social interaction more difficult and failing at it altogether. But his larger point seems to be that socially (and perhaps neurologically, if that's the right term) vulnerable younger men are being groomed/radicalized by predators.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 17:58:59


Post by: Xenomancers


You man very well be a hot guy. I am just an average guy. I've had some success with online dating but it takes a lot of work. I've also looked at the apps of many girls that I have been with through online dating and it is astounding the amount of attention even a very average girl gets. 20 fold higher than me. It's amazing I was able to get anyones attention.

That's the point I am trying to make. Obviously this incel group is taking it too far - and they are only hurting themselves. But it is very tough for even average men to find love in this world. I don't have the answers to fix that but at least acknowledging the problem is a good place to start. Sexually frustrated men are easy to manipulate and control and are vulnerable to this kind of nonsense.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 18:12:36


Post by: daedalus


 Xenomancers wrote:
You man very well be a hot guy. I am just an average guy. I've had some success with online dating but it takes a lot of work. I've also looked at the apps of many girls that I have been with through online dating and it is astounding the amount of attention even a very average girl gets. 20 fold higher than me. It's amazing I was able to get anyones attention.


Totally true on women receiving more attention than men. They'll get a deluge of activity constantly. It's pretty horrifying what guys say a lot too. That's why you gotta do something to stand out, especially in the picture. My way was tossing a waterproof camera to a buddy on a float trip and getting the "action" shot of me on the kayak. It really did make a noticable difference. Got any female friends? Have one vet your online profile. Maybe you're doing / saying something wrong.

Obviously if you're the elephant man, there's not much that can be done, but particularly in this online era, there's SO MUCH subtle little stuff that influences whether you get a response that's more important than your looks.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 18:22:47


Post by: feeder


On the one hand, you gotta work harder to get noticed. On the other, no unsolicited dick pics. Seems like a win for the fellas to me.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 18:40:28


Post by: Da Boss


 Xenomancers wrote:
You man very well be a hot guy. I am just an average guy. I've had some success with online dating but it takes a lot of work. I've also looked at the apps of many girls that I have been with through online dating and it is astounding the amount of attention even a very average girl gets. 20 fold higher than me. It's amazing I was able to get anyones attention.

That's the point I am trying to make. Obviously this incel group is taking it too far - and they are only hurting themselves. But it is very tough for even average men to find love in this world. I don't have the answers to fix that but at least acknowledging the problem is a good place to start. Sexually frustrated men are easy to manipulate and control and are vulnerable to this kind of nonsense.


Sorry, but you've not experienced being on a dating website as a woman. Talking to some female friends, they have to put up with some horrendous stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw I completely agree that there is a sinister older contingent to this community who are working to radicalize these guys for their own ends. You'll see them on any of the fora, if you can stomach browsing them.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 18:55:18


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah man - look at some data on dating sites. Men really are at a huge disadvantage in the game. There is no question that it does and will drive some men crazy.


When there is an equal number of men and women on the planet, and each relationship includes a man and a woman, it is a mathematical impossibility for men to be at a disadvantage compared to women.

What we see instead is observer bias. Consider a population of 10 men and 10 women, where the custom is for the men to approach the women. There's five women that all the guys want, and every guy contacts each of those girls. Those girls take the five most desirable men. On a simple level there's 5 men who have been rejected, which makes it look tougher for the men than the women. But note there's also 5 women who were never contacted at all, they were also rejected, just not actively.

This isn't how it actually works.

It works more like this in the online dating.

Hot girls get whatever they want
Average girls get whatever they want
Hot guys have a pretty good time
Not so cute girls have a pretty good time
Average guys get almost nothing
not so cute guys need not apply.

Pretty much - it sucks to be a not so cute guy.

The issue with this reasoning is that there is supposedly an infinite supply of hot guys. But there isn't, once the hot ones are taken most of the average women price themselves out of the market, then what? So basically the hot people succeed at online dating in this theory, not women.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:06:25


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


I think the underlying assumption is that there's more hot guys than hot girls trying to find a partner online. Whether that's true or not is a topic that I'm not going to touch with a ten-foot pole.

On the subject of the effort needed to be successful in internet dating, I feel like the factor of experience in dating is missing from the discussion. If someone has no previous experience of dating or being in a relationship, that person is pretty likely to fail in finding a partner online, no? It feels a bit like going "you haven't had a partner? Why don't you get one?" to someone who doesn't know how.

The Incel movement needs to die, the sooner the better, but brushing them aside through anecdotes of one's experiences of online dating isn't going to accomplish that.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:07:31


Post by: Xenomancers


Hot guys and hot girls do really well obviously.

Average girls do a lot better than average guys. Hot guys will go down with average girls quite often. Hot girls almost never go down.

It's even worse at the bottom. Where do you think most of these incel guys are?

Plus we are just talking about online dating as a proxy. It's even worse at a bar or a club. Girls are even less likely to consider lesser attractive guys when people can see them with lesser attractive guys.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:11:08


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


That's still making the assumption that there's X "hot girls" and at the most X-1 "hot guys" as otherwise the two would just pair up.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:12:57


Post by: Ketara


 Yodhrin wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I've seen a lot of likely neurotypicals self-diagnose themselves as Autistic because they were having trouble socializing and could or would not change their behaviors. Perhaps the mod was referring to these types?


Perhaps it's a gakky thing to say regardless of whether he means it as-written, in the same misused sense as you mention, or just as a shorthand. Perhaps a mod should know better, given they're ostensibly a responsible person in a community that's likely to have a reasonable amount of people with an ASD in it.


Perhaps it might be a good idea not to assume as to whether another person is...well, as you so delicately put it, 'like you', or 'like us'. We are all faceless people on the internet, after all. Not to mention that it's only about two steps from dividing the world into 'normies' and 'us' like incels do.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:15:09


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Xenomancers wrote:
Hot guys and hot girls do really well obviously.

Average girls do a lot better than average guys. Hot guys will go down with average girls quite often. Hot girls almost never go down.

It's even worse at the bottom. Where do you think most of these incel guys are?

Plus we are just talking about online dating as a proxy. It's even worse at a bar or a club. Girls are even less likely to consider lesser attractive guys when people can see them with lesser attractive guys.

Are you living in an alternative dimension where 50% of the population isn't female? Because if 75% of men get rejected than 75% of women will also end up alone, unless your dimension includes large scale polygamy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the underlying assumption is that there's more hot guys than hot girls trying to find a partner online. Whether that's true or not is a topic that I'm not going to touch with a ten-foot pole.

On the subject of the effort needed to be successful in internet dating, I feel like the factor of experience in dating is missing from the discussion. If someone has no previous experience of dating or being in a relationship, that person is pretty likely to fail in finding a partner online, no? It feels a bit like going "you haven't had a partner? Why don't you get one?" to someone who doesn't know how.

The Incel movement needs to die, the sooner the better, but brushing them aside through anecdotes of one's experiences of online dating isn't going to accomplish that.

Online dating is just a minefield because people also all tend to aim higher in the looks department and you get overloaded with choices: "what if the next person is even better?". In real life you can also develop relationships with people you know well/beforehand and where looks matter less. Online dating lets you weed out an incredible amount of people who you could have had fulfilling relationships with just because you go for those check boxes.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:21:02


Post by: Ketara


 Manchu wrote:
Ketara's post already qualifies the statement in question: "young naive autistic men who can't figure sex/relationships out," i.e., recognizing the difference between finding social interaction more difficult and failing at it altogether. But his larger point seems to be that socially (and perhaps neurologically, if that's the right term) vulnerable younger men are being groomed/radicalized by predators.


Spot on. People on the autistic spectrum often have difficulties relating to other people, or reading their intents and emotions. Indeed, it's one of the primary identifying factors. Certain young men in that position (namely those who have difficulties relating to/reading people, wherever it may came from) who also happen to be reasonably unattractive have their difficulties multiplied half a dozen times over. At which point if the issue goes on long enough, more normal psychological barriers and problems begin to get stacked on top (summoning up the courage to ever make a move becomes a massive thing instead of something you forget by the next day, erectile dysfunction from only ever getting one kind of stimulation, etcetc).

If that carries on until the poor sod hits their early twenties, they understandably get depressed about it. and then increasingly bitter. Once they're in an echo chamber of reinforcing validation? Even more so.

These people are horrendous, but they're also really quite sad in a way. The problem is that they react to any woman saying, 'Cheer up it can't be too bad' or trying to help them gain confidence, etc, with 'Alright, spread your legs and fix it for me then &^%^(*'. Which women aren't too inclined to do from that sort of proposition.

If a suitable lass gets hold of them young enough and they get into a real relationship, a goodly chunk of the misogynistic crap would get knocked out of them in short order, I should think. Nothing wrong with a spot of healthy kink or suchlike in a relationship that involves being a bit more dominating in the bedroom or suchlike (I think that's often all that's showing through in some of the more frustrated rants); but the key here is that the lads have to learn that what happens consensually on one side of the bedroom door and then out on the other side when the washing up needs doing are two very different things.

The ones that start pushing 30 would appear to be the worst ones though; those seem to be the more twisted and warped. They can't differentiate, get horrendously depressed and fatalistic, and just start spewing hatred and vitriol out of loneliness and perceived inadequacy.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:38:38


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Hot guys and hot girls do really well obviously.

Average girls do a lot better than average guys. Hot guys will go down with average girls quite often. Hot girls almost never go down.

It's even worse at the bottom. Where do you think most of these incel guys are?

Plus we are just talking about online dating as a proxy. It's even worse at a bar or a club. Girls are even less likely to consider lesser attractive guys when people can see them with lesser attractive guys.

Are you living in an alternative dimension where 50% of the population isn't female? Because if 75% of men get rejected than 75% of women will also end up alone, unless your dimension includes large scale polygamy


Not necessarily polygamy, but more of a serial monogamy. The high-status males will probably end up dating more than one woman over time, even for ones who wish to settle down and be monogamous. This means that even if they only date a couple women in a year, the number of women who have experienced some form of relationship is much higher than men. Sure, men and women form long-term relationships at about equal rates, but when it comes to the dating game, human behavior dictates that it is much easier for a woman to stay in the status of dating than for a low-status male.

So at the end of the day a woman who ends up spending her life single is more likely to find herself in a position where she has dated, and rejected, an number of men, whereas a guy in the same position is much more likely to have had few or no partners. One of these ends up on a couch with a dog and tub of Ben & Jerry's, the other goes off the deep end and joins the incel "Movement".


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:54:43


Post by: Peregrine


 Xenomancers wrote:
This isn't how it actually works.

It works more like this in the online dating.

Hot girls get whatever they want
Average girls get whatever they want
Hot guys have a pretty good time
Not so cute girls have a pretty good time
Average guys get almost nothing
not so cute guys need not apply.

Pretty much - it sucks to be a not so cute guy.


The point is that your theory doesn't match the numbers. You can't have more girls than guys getting what they want because, assuming nobody is gay (and not in this dating pool in the first place), a girl succeeding inherently means a guy succeeding at the same time. Maybe you can make the principle work for a single dating site by assuming that there are only a few women and lots of desperate men on that particular site, but the numbers have to average out elsewhere. In a country with a roughly 50/50 gender ratio and overwhelming heterosexual monogamy you can't have significantly disproportionate success rates.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:55:27


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Hot guys and hot girls do really well obviously.

Average girls do a lot better than average guys. Hot guys will go down with average girls quite often. Hot girls almost never go down.

It's even worse at the bottom. Where do you think most of these incel guys are?

Plus we are just talking about online dating as a proxy. It's even worse at a bar or a club. Girls are even less likely to consider lesser attractive guys when people can see them with lesser attractive guys.

Are you living in an alternative dimension where 50% of the population isn't female? Because if 75% of men get rejected than 75% of women will also end up alone, unless your dimension includes large scale polygamy


Not necessarily polygamy, but more of a serial monogamy. The high-status males will probably end up dating more than one woman over time, even for ones who wish to settle down and be monogamous. This means that even if they only date a couple women in a year, the number of women who have experienced some form of relationship is much higher than men. Sure, men and women form long-term relationships at about equal rates, but when it comes to the dating game, human behavior dictates that it is much easier for a woman to stay in the status of dating than for a low-status male.

So at the end of the day a woman who ends up spending her life single is more likely to find herself in a position where she has dated, and rejected, an number of men, whereas a guy in the same position is much more likely to have had few or no partners. One of these ends up on a couch with a dog and tub of Ben & Jerry's, the other goes off the deep end and joins the incel "Movement".

This is vastly overestimating how many women some men go through. Multiple surveys and research in the US into the topic have found that the median for sexual partners between men and women on average is only 1 or 2 apart. the margin between men and women is smaller than 10% on average, then take into account that men might exaggerate for status and women give lower numbers because of social stigma. Men more often than women claim to have had more than one sexual partner.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:56:40


Post by: epronovost


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Not necessarily polygamy, but more of a serial monogamy. The high-status males will probably end up dating more than one woman over time, even for ones who wish to settle down and be monogamous. This means that even if they only date a couple women in a year, the number of women who have experienced some form of relationship is much higher than men. Sure, men and women form long-term relationships at about equal rates, but when it comes to the dating game, human behavior dictates that it is much easier for a woman to stay in the status of dating than for a low-status male.

So at the end of the day a woman who ends up spending her life single is more likely to find herself in a position where she has dated, and rejected, an number of men, whereas a guy in the same position is much more likely to have had few or no partners. One of these ends up on a couch with a dog and tub of Ben & Jerry's, the other goes off the deep end and joins the incel "Movement".


Statistically, this is unfounded. Men and women have the same number of partners on average and are celibate at pretty much the same number. They of course have children in pretty much the same proportion. If some men are serial monogamous partner, so are their partner by necessity or by choice. The number of celibate people who also happen to be actively searching for a partner is comparable to a few digits between men and women. The idea that dating is easier for one gender over another is mostly an illusion caussed by selection biais. In other words, the grass always looks green on the other side of the fence. Traditionnal dating culture present different challenges and roles to men and women though.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 19:59:07


Post by: Peregrine


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Not necessarily polygamy, but more of a serial monogamy. The high-status males will probably end up dating more than one woman over time, even for ones who wish to settle down and be monogamous. This means that even if they only date a couple women in a year, the number of women who have experienced some form of relationship is much higher than men. Sure, men and women form long-term relationships at about equal rates, but when it comes to the dating game, human behavior dictates that it is much easier for a woman to stay in the status of dating than for a low-status male.


That only works if you have all of these women sitting idle while waiting for their brief turn with the highest-status man. In reality the serially monogamous types are going to line up another date the moment the first one fails, and that means keeping the 1:1 success ratio.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 20:20:24


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Peregrine wrote:
Awww, the incel wants to be treated like a terrorist. This should be arranged.



It's perfect! Now America can claim any male they dislike is a Incel terrorist and any women killed near by were unfortunate collateral damage! Since that's the degree of actual proof required to be a 'terrorist' and the usual outcome one you deploy one of those drones. Regardless of their rights under the law.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 21:33:49


Post by: TheAuldGrump


Hmmm, with the exception of my next to most recent relationship, most of my dating pool has consisted of either people met at work or one of my two main social circles - folk music and role playing games.

Not a lot of overlap - my wife is a wonderful, wonderful exception. We are in an amateur steampunk band together, and we game together... anywhere between three and five times a week. (I can honestly say that I beat my wife, or at least her army, on a regular basis, But then I would also have to admit that she beats me, and my army, also on a regular basis.)

Honestly, I think the biggest step is just to be socially active - you can't have a relationship if you don't, you know, interact with people.

The Auld Grump - my wife is a lot better looking than I am.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 21:43:00


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Hmmm, with the exception of my next to most recent relationship, most of my dating pool has consisted of either people met at work or one of my two main social circles - folk music and role playing games.

Not a lot of overlap - my wife is a wonderful, wonderful exception. We are in an amateur steampunk band together, and we game together... anywhere between three and five times a week. (I can honestly say that I beat my wife, or at least her army, on a regular basis, But then I would also have to admit that she beats me, and my army, also on a regular basis.)

Honestly, I think the biggest step is just to be socially active - you can't have a relationship if you don't, you know, interact with people.

The Auld Grump - my wife is a lot better looking than I am.

Exactly, but while this seems natural to most people, that's not what the incel community believes for the most part, there the expectation is that women should be lining up at your front door. Because you know, they have such great personalities or something?

As for the better looking part, I think on average women tend to be better looking than men, so men are the lucky ones in that regard


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Awww, the incel wants to be treated like a terrorist. This should be arranged.


It's perfect! Now America can claim any male they dislike is a Incel terrorist and any women killed near by were unfortunate collateral damage! Since that's the degree of actual proof required to be a 'terrorist' and the usual outcome one you deploy one of those drones. Regardless of their rights under the law.

Well so far incels have done 'better' than Islamic terrorism in Canada. So for those arguing that radicals need to be on a watchlist


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 21:48:13


Post by: epronovost


 Disciple of Fate wrote:


As for the better looking part, I think on average women tend to be better looking than men, so men are the lucky ones in that regard


I would say the same, but I would say that's due to the fact I'm heterosexual. While I can appreciate a man's beauty or charm, I'm not exactly a connaisseur in that domain. To me, again, that's selection biais (better personnal hygene and more extansive use of cosmetic amongst women might also help in that regard).


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/27 22:05:53


Post by: Disciple of Fate


epronovost wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:


As for the better looking part, I think on average women tend to be better looking than men, so men are the lucky ones in that regard


I would say the same, but I would say that's due to the fact I'm heterosexual. While I can appreciate a man's beauty or charm, I'm not exactly a connaisseur in that domain. To me, again, that's selection biais (better personnal hygene and more extansive use of cosmetic amongst women might also help in that regard).

Men can look absolutely gorgeous too indeed. But most of us on average spend significantly less time and money relative to women on how we look, so that might be the main reason.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 06:51:53


Post by: Kilkrazy


Anyway, Elliot Rogers and Alek Minassian are both good looking guys, from what I see.

If they had trouble getting a girlfriend it might have been started by shyness and insecurity as teenagers. That said, their situation certainly wasn't helped by becoming creepy misogynists that any normal girl would run a mile from.



9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 08:55:53


Post by: A Town Called Malus


I certainly wouldn't describe myself as hot. About the only part of me that I would consider to be stereotypically attractive is my eyes (greeny-blue with eyelashes girls wear fakes to recreate!). The rest of me is average to large.

Yet I've been in multiple relationships over my life, with my current one at 5 years and counting.

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do. What makes it worse is they are told they are ugly and that being ugly is the problem by the people who claim to be supporting them.

From The Twits:
Roald Dahl wrote:If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.

A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.


This is incredibly true in many cases. Think of the people you've met in life who you might describe as ugly. All of the ones I can think of are not because of how they look, but because of their character.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 09:50:05


Post by: tneva82


 Da Boss wrote:


Sorry, but you've not experienced being on a dating website as a woman. Talking to some female friends, they have to put up with some horrendous stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw I completely agree that there is a sinister older contingent to this community who are working to radicalize these guys for their own ends. You'll see them on any of the fora, if you can stomach browsing them.


Not just datieg sites actually. I have been complimented on non dating sites(language exchange) how I'm nice persoe to write because I don't try to get a date, often in weird and creepy way. Some guys seems really desperate!


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 10:14:14


Post by: Howard A Treesong


I went on Bumble for a month after my last breakup. I wasn’t taking seriously, mostly I did it for curiosity because I friend was on there. I was on a month and didn’t get a single match, no conversations to start. I’m not a model but I don’t think I look bad either. But it’s a waste of time. Decided it was actually bad for my self esteem to feel like the last turkey in the shop.

The other problem with online dating is committing to the date before naturally meeting. Normally, you’d have introduced yourself to each other in person and have some slight connection in that undefinable way before arranging a date. Starting a date with a stranger, having only texted or read some online profile, turns it into a complete crapshoot as you don’t don’t ‘click’ with the majority of people despite common interests and the like. I’ve known people go on dozen of dates and it’s just a time and money sink because they know within minutes of meeting their date if they’re warm to them or not.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 11:09:18


Post by: Deadnight


I met my wife through online dating - there's nothing wrong with it, and it's certainly better than the traditional manner of clubs, alcohol and bad judgement. Being serious, it doesn't matter how you meet someone (usually through social things, or friends of friends is one of the best ways If you ask me), so long as you can make a funny story out of it.

Take me and mrs.deadnight. Hollywood movie stuff literally.

I'd done the online dating thing twice, and fairly serious stints. I'd dated before, and had long term relationships but wanted to try it out. To be fair, I'd just moved countries, and since I don't have family here and was just building up a network of friends, I found it a grèat way to get out and meet people. Anyway, it's described as a crap shoot, and yes, I had plenty dares that never went far, which is perfectly fair. Not everyone is compatible. No different really to meeting folks through other ways. Now, for both stints, I had fun. But it got to the point where I'd had enough of it, you know, and wanted to take a break. So yeah, my last date was the lady who would become mrs.deadnight. My last date. in her case, I was her very first actual online date. The Very first. and it was magic. so yeah, it does happen. And I like to make the joke of us that I was just desperate and she just has really low standards. Still, six years later and going strong. Married a whole month and we've not killed each other yet either!

More on topic, When I was dating, although I clicked with some and didn't click with others, I did make friends and we had some fun times. One of the great fun things to chat about with girls, and have a laugh over I found was asking them about the worst message they got from a guy. And I'd tell about the worst I'd gotten (usually just emails with 'hi' and no other hook) And sadly, they all had far too many stories of them usually worse or more bizarre than mine. Whether it's penis pics, or just a couple of words in emails , even 'hi' with no hook, angry emails about why they weren't messaging back immediately, they all had stories from guys who didn't really get how to play the game, or else who were simply trolling. some of them were hilarious. The best one I remember hearing about was an email from a guy who had typed it up phonetically in a thick Glaswegian accent with all the slang you can imagine. It was... memorable but pretty harmless. Some of the others? Yeah, us guys don't do ourselves any favours sometimes!



9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 11:23:46


Post by: Da Boss


I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 15:38:34


Post by: Rosebuddy


 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do.


"Incel" is a self-chosen political identity. It isn't a condition or a personal problem, as such, it's an ideology. Men can have nothing much at all in the way of a sex life and not be incel.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 16:33:22


Post by: Ketara


Rosebuddy wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do.


"Incel" is a self-chosen political identity. It isn't a condition or a personal problem, as such, it's an ideology. Men can have nothing much at all in the way of a sex life and not be incel.


Eh. 50/50. Etymologically, the word just stands for 'involuntary celibate' or 'Person who would like to have sex but cannot'. In that sense, many people are 'incels' including most young teenagers with firework hormones.

Practically though, 'incel' has turned into a specific social grouping who divide it into 'Normies' and 'us'. Even they get confused, I've seen screenshots of incels who've had sex once being told that they're not 'incel' any longer, purely because they're not virgins; whils they scramble to argue and disagree.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 17:01:32


Post by: Rosebuddy


 Ketara wrote:
Rosebuddy wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Incellism is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy where people are told they are ugly and then become ugly in response to that, through what they say and do.


"Incel" is a self-chosen political identity. It isn't a condition or a personal problem, as such, it's an ideology. Men can have nothing much at all in the way of a sex life and not be incel.


Eh. 50/50. Etymologically, the word just stands for 'involuntary celibate' or 'Person who would like to have sex but cannot'. In that sense, many people are 'incels' including most young teenagers with firework hormones.

Practically though, 'incel' has turned into a specific social grouping who divide it into 'Normies' and 'us'. Even they get confused, I've seen screenshots of incels who've had sex once being told that they're not 'incel' any longer, purely because they're not virgins; whils they scramble to argue and disagree.


That is what I said. You haven't actually demonstrated superior knowledge by coming in here, rating my three sentences as half true and then agreeing that it takes more than merely not having a sex life to be part of the "incel" label. Indeed, they consciously set themselves apart from "normies". That's what it means to construct a political identity.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/28 17:24:13


Post by: Ketara


I was pointing out that one could easily be considered as or identify as an incel in the original and etymological sense, as opposed to the factional. Which is a distinction your post failed to make. Ain't nothing to do with 'superior knowledge' about that. You might want to eat a kit kat though, judging by the affronted tone.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 06:21:30


Post by: sebster


 Xenomancers wrote:
This isn't how it actually works.

It works more like this in the online dating.

Hot girls get whatever they want
Average girls get whatever they want
Hot guys have a pretty good time
Not so cute girls have a pretty good time
Average guys get almost nothing
not so cute guys need not apply.

Pretty much - it sucks to be a not so cute guy.


Dude, I've done on-line dating. I dated a bunch of girls, and met my wife through on-line dating. And believe me I am not a hot guy.

But I'm not even arguing against your theory because my personal experience is different, but because what you describe is gibberish in a few different ways. First - it doesn't pass a basic run the basic maths test. If there are ten girls and ten guys in a dating pool, with say 2 guys and 2 girls in the very hot category, then the only way that the other 8 guys get shut out is if the 2 guys go date crazy, taking out a different girl every night, so the two guys date every single night while the girls each settle for 1 date every 5 nights. It's stupid.

Second - from a basic behavioural stance, consider the decision making of the girls. Each of the ten gets picked up by the two hot guys when the hot guy pleases, with no hope of anything long term because each of those guys is just moving from girl to girl constantly. In that environment any of those girls can drop down to the 3rd most attractive guy, and secure someone permanent, and girls in the bottom tier could get a partner well above them. For your theory to work you'd have to believe that idea never occurred to any girl.

Lastly, it doesn't work because studies have shown while guys have a very clear standards of beauty, girls actually differ considerably, with different girls looking for very different features in guys. So in terms of biology the theory doesn't work.

So basically, the idea doesn't work, at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You man very well be a hot guy. I am just an average guy. I've had some success with online dating but it takes a lot of work. I've also looked at the apps of many girls that I have been with through online dating and it is astounding the amount of attention even a very average girl gets. 20 fold higher than me. It's amazing I was able to get anyones attention.


This is actually very frustrating because I explained this quite clearly, you responded but by this post it became clear you missed my point entirely.

Yes, the girls you contact will get many contacts, many more than most guys. Because we live in a culture where guys make the first contact. So if we return to the example I gave of ten guys and ten girls, and all 10 boys contacting the five prettiest girls, then those five girls will pick one dude each, and that's tough for the five guys who get rejected. But its absolute gibberish to think it is only tough for those five guys, because that means ignoring the five girls who were also ignored.

What you have done is look at the number of contacts the girls you liked got, and ignored the contacts of girls you had no interest in. It's a clear selection bias problem.

But it is very tough for even average men to find love in this world.


It's tough for everyone, mate.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 15:39:02


Post by: TheAuldGrump


You know... I can't think of a single time when I was the one that made first contact.

Heck, I managed to miss the fact that my now-wife was interested in me when she sat on my lap naked. Twice. (It was at a pagan retreat, where I was running a Pathfinder game. I just chalked it up to 'pagans being pagans, and freaking the 'dane', and helped her with generating her character. )

The Auld Grump - she caught me in the end though. Our daughter is now at the 'escaping from the playpen' stage.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 15:43:11


Post by: djones520


 Da Boss wrote:
I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!


Much the same. My wife messaged me on a forum out of the blue one day, asking some questions about the military.

13 years married now with 3 kids. Life is funny sometimes.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 15:51:54


Post by: d-usa


I met my wife in a college prep program while I was a 250 lb greasy teenager with questionable fashion choices.

I was far from good looking.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 16:01:35


Post by: Disciple of Fate


It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 16:03:49


Post by: epronovost


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.


Shocking isn't it? /sarcasm


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 16:20:01


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Heck, I managed to miss the fact that my now-wife was interested in me when she sat on my lap naked. Twice. (It was at a pagan retreat, where I was running a Pathfinder game. I just chalked it up to 'pagans being pagans, and freaking the 'dane', and helped her with generating her character. )


This only creates more questions


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 17:58:57


Post by: djones520


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.


So, getting back to some of this, no. It's not that.

I'm seriously worried about stuff like this with my oldest son. He has Aspergers, among some other issues, and a trait of his is extreme selfishness. This is something that he can't help, and my wife and I have spent the last 3 years doing everything we can to try to get him to expand his worldview beyond himself, but results are minimal.

He will have relationship problems as a teenage/adult. He may never end up in a lifelong relationship, if one at all. He very well could be an Incel, and it wouldn't be flying rodent gak crazy misogyny or a sense of entitlement to blame. It would be the result of a chemical imbalance in his brain that isn't correctable. I imagine that many of these people are like that as well.

I saw a post a little while back, someone mentioning folks preying on people like this, and pushing them down the radical road, and that's something that scares the gak out of me with my son. It also hurts seeing generalized characterizations like this being thrown around, because folks just don't want to take the time to really dig into it.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 18:23:00


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 djones520 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.


So, getting back to some of this, no. It's not that.

I'm seriously worried about stuff like this with my oldest son. He has Aspergers, among some other issues, and a trait of his is extreme selfishness. This is something that he can't help, and my wife and I have spent the last 3 years doing everything we can to try to get him to expand his worldview beyond himself, but results are minimal.

He will have relationship problems as a teenage/adult. He may never end up in a lifelong relationship, if one at all. He very well could be an Incel, and it wouldn't be flying rodent gak crazy misogyny or a sense of entitlement to blame. It would be the result of a chemical imbalance in his brain that isn't correctable. I imagine that many of these people are like that as well.

I saw a post a little while back, someone mentioning folks preying on people like this, and pushing them down the radical road, and that's something that scares the gak out of me with my son. It also hurts seeing generalized characterizations like this being thrown around, because folks just don't want to take the time to really dig into it.

But I wouldn't call your son an incel DJones. An incel is someone who has that extreme misogyny combined with an extreme sense of entitlement. What your son is is just a regular virgin. Plenty of people don't lose their virginity before they are 20 or even 25, with some never. A number of people deal with certain issues or are very selfish without being virgins or colossal misogynists. Being an incel is a choice, being a regular virgin is involuntary.

The problem with saying things like "hurts" is that these people willingly go down the path of incredible misogyny. Just because you're a virgin doesn't mean you have to get a hate-on towards women. These people have agency, a choice not to go down that path, once that choice is made its hard for me to have sympathy for someone with such a vile ideology.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 18:27:10


Post by: djones520


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It almost sounds like the only thing holding back incels is the batgak crazy misogyny and sense of entitlement.


So, getting back to some of this, no. It's not that.

I'm seriously worried about stuff like this with my oldest son. He has Aspergers, among some other issues, and a trait of his is extreme selfishness. This is something that he can't help, and my wife and I have spent the last 3 years doing everything we can to try to get him to expand his worldview beyond himself, but results are minimal.

He will have relationship problems as a teenage/adult. He may never end up in a lifelong relationship, if one at all. He very well could be an Incel, and it wouldn't be flying rodent gak crazy misogyny or a sense of entitlement to blame. It would be the result of a chemical imbalance in his brain that isn't correctable. I imagine that many of these people are like that as well.

I saw a post a little while back, someone mentioning folks preying on people like this, and pushing them down the radical road, and that's something that scares the gak out of me with my son. It also hurts seeing generalized characterizations like this being thrown around, because folks just don't want to take the time to really dig into it.

But I wouldn't call your son an incel DJones. An incel is someone who has that extreme misogyny combined with an extreme sense of entitlement. What your son is is just a regular virgin. Plenty of people don't lose their virginity before they are 20 or even 25, with some never. A number of people deal with certain issues or are very selfish without being virgins or colossal misogynists. Being an incel is a choice, being a regular virgin is involuntary.

The problem with saying things like "hurts" is that these people willingly go down the path of incredible misogyny. Just because you're a virgin doesn't mean you have to get a hate-on towards women. These people have agency, a choice not to go down that path, once that choice is made its hard for me to have sympathy for someone with such a vile ideology.


Maybe I didn't make the issue clear enough. Folks like my son focus issues they face on external factors, not internal. It won't be his fault. It will be someone else's that he can't find a sexual relationship. That is how his brain works. You take these predators who "teach" these men that it is women's fault, it will be very easy for them to fall into that trap.

It would be very easy for my son to become an Incel, because his brain operates like that, through no fault of his own.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 18:35:54


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 19:02:58


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 djones520 wrote:


Maybe I didn't make the issue clear enough. Folks like my son focus issues they face on external factors, not internal. It won't be his fault. It will be someone else's that he can't find a sexual relationship. That is how his brain works. You take these predators who "teach" these men that it is women's fault, it will be very easy for them to fall into that trap.

It would be very easy for my son to become an Incel, because his brain operates like that, through no fault of his own.


About the only thing I think that anyone can recommend, at least here, is to just continue to try to teach him that not everything is somebody else's fault and that sometimes things happen which are not anyone's fault, as well as teaching him about the dangers of people preying on his condition to make him do things which are not good for him.

I'm sure you are doing this, and a lot more besides, and I wish your son all the luck in the world that he does not fall prey to such vile people that would seek to hurt him in order to support their worldview.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 19:06:37


Post by: djones520


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.


That's a good question. It's what that we try to teach our son, personal responsibility. We don't give him a pass, outwardly, at least, because the world won't. It's very hard though, because as I said, his brain just doesn't work that way like it does with most of us.

So at what point is it unreasonable to hold that expectation, when you know they're incapable of it?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 19:23:35


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 djones520 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.


That's a good question. It's what that we try to teach our son, personal responsibility. We don't give him a pass, outwardly, at least, because the world won't. It's very hard though, because as I said, his brain just doesn't work that way like it does with most of us.

So at what point is it unreasonable to hold that expectation, when you know they're incapable of it?

Its hard, once you cross the line/law no pass can be given. Its likely that this man in Toronto had some sort of issue, and I can recognize that. Where it crosses the line is advocating or simply harming other people. In that case I no longer have sympathy, but I do strongly believe that the justice system should do everything in its power to help this man with his condition/issue and place him in the appropriate place, regardless of what he did, because the potential underlying issue can't be ignored. Just because I don't have sympathy anymore doesn't mean I won't want to see them treated humanly.

I think as family you will never lose sympathy and I wouldn't ever begrudge anyone that sympathy, people are complex and we can't always let logic dictate how we feel. I think in the end personal responsibility can never be fully abolished, because in the end if someone crosses the line you have to act. But all too often those actions involve simply locking up a person in a prison that makes it far worse, while a specialized facility would have served far better.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 19:38:12


Post by: Ouze


 Da Boss wrote:
I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!


My future wife contacted me back when I was running a forum for Bearded Dragons with some questions. It was probably the only bearded dragon website in existence then... pretty early internet. Kind of funny how back in the day "meeting someone on the internet" marked you as a weirdo, and now meeting someone in a bar is out outlier.

Anyway if a hideous cave troll like myself can find someone then these guys really have no excuse other then their sparkling personalities.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 19:48:21


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Ouze wrote:

My future wife contacted me back when I was running a forum for Bearded Dragons with some questions.


Was one those questions about how her bearded dragon was meant to use the forum?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 19:55:11


Post by: feeder


 Ouze wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I met my wife on a forum for a webcomic. *Shrug* Whatever works!


My future wife contacted me back when I was running a forum for Bearded Dragons with some questions. It was probably the only bearded dragon website in existence then... pretty early internet. Kind of funny how back in the day "meeting someone on the internet" marked you as a weirdo, and now meeting someone in a bar is out outlier.

Anyway if a hideous cave troll like myself can find someone then these guys really have no excuse other then their sparkling personalities.


And some people say that Lizard People are a tin foil hat conspiracy theory.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/04/30 20:34:58


Post by: Da Boss


 djones520 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Its rough, inceldom wouldn't be the first ideology that preys on those more susceptible to do horrible things. I can't possibly understand how it is to have to deal with such matters and its incredibly hard when it comes to family.

A question then perhaps, you say it hurts, but at what point should people stop being sympathetic, when does it cross the line towards personal responsibility?

Plenty of people who have committed absolutely horrible acts didn't have the most happy life story, but at what point do actions and ideology cross the line where that simply becomes an excuse?

But the majority of people who have problems or a difficult life never cross those lines. I have good hope that the odds are on the side of your son in this matter.


That's a good question. It's what that we try to teach our son, personal responsibility. We don't give him a pass, outwardly, at least, because the world won't. It's very hard though, because as I said, his brain just doesn't work that way like it does with most of us.

So at what point is it unreasonable to hold that expectation, when you know they're incapable of it?


It's always dicey to comment on someone else's parenting, and I'm only a teacher myself, not a parent yet, but I deal with a lot of teenagers. I think you're doing the best you can here, and the fact that you can see what might happen and are worried about it will be the best defense for your son. I'm sure you know this and I hope this doesn't come across as patronizing when I have such limited knowledge of your situation, but teenagers are often extremely selfish and prone to assigning blame to external sources. Your son might be a lot worse than normal, but similarly, he may eventually improve as he gets older. I think keeping a close eye on it and being vigilant for any toxicity coming from malign sources outside will help protect against the worst of it. I just wanted to say that in many cases I see, the parents do not accept these sorts of hard truths and therefore miss warning signs etc until it is harder to do something, and it sounds to me like you've cleared that hurdle which is the hardest one.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/05/05 01:30:25


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


I was "involuntarily celibate" (in a literal sense - I'd never heard of the community and ideology until now) until January this year. The transition was...overrated. If these men are telling themselves that having sex will be some silver bullet that magically solves the problems they have socializing and make their lives better...they're deluded.

Hell, if it was that easy, why not just hire a hooker and be done with it?


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/05/05 03:45:36


Post by: Ouze


As DMX famously said, "yeah, sex is cool, but have you ever had garlic bread?"



9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/05/05 12:21:15


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I was "involuntarily celibate" (in a literal sense - I'd never heard of the community and ideology until now) until January this year. The transition was...overrated. If these men are telling themselves that having sex will be some silver bullet that magically solves the problems they have socializing and make their lives better...they're deluded.


I dunno, we've argued less since then, so as i see it getting laid really did help you.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/05/05 12:31:47


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


LOL, no, I think that has more to do with me putting you on my ignore list. I only read your comments now when I'm in a good mood. I'm also frequenting Off Topic less often.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/05/05 13:30:14


Post by: Deadnight


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Hell, if it was that easy, why not just hire a hooker and be done with it?


That's not the issue from the incel perspective. Essentially, why should they 'stoop' to that level, as only real losers will pay for sex, and sure, it'll feel great, but you'll feel crap again straight after.

Remember as well, they'll feel they deserve sex, they're entitled to sex, that they're owed sex. And not just from anyone, but from the most beautiful females out there. 'Ugly' girls simply won't do, and they won't 'stoop' or 'settle' for that because they're far better than that. And of course, when the girl (and often, 'the girl' is an abstract concept, because they'll often have zero actual experience of relating to, conversing with, socialising with, interacting with actual females) 'rejects' them, and again, I use this term loosely, because 'the girl' might be completely unaware of this whole thing, and is just going about her day (and this is still rejection) - literally, her not showing any interest, or her not just magically falling onto their penises in sheer awe and despair at their sheer magnificence, it's her problem. She is to blame. It's her fault. She is the one wronging the poor incel, and she deserves to be punished.

It's a sickening, and skewed perspective.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/05/05 14:02:01


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


LOL. As somebody who believes in individual liberty, they can get fethed as far as I'm concerned. (Er...but not literally, it would seem. )

This Incel perspective as you put it...sounds a lot like Narcissism. They objectify other people and fail to recognise their autonomy as individual beings? Thats how people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder view other people (as I understand it). They're just objects to be exploited.


9 Dead in Toronto van attack @ 2018/05/05 17:45:45


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
. They're just objects to be exploited.


It's like being a sociopath. You see people, and understand raping robbing and murdering them is bad, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.