Ice_can wrote: Thanks for taking the tine to do that, though I'll be interested to know if some of the lists change as I'm not 100% sure their post FAQ status.
Not my work. The FLG guys put this up for the community to proof read. I will do some deeper analysis on them when I get the chance though.
There's one list with a Relic Leviathan Dread but no normal dreads. I thought that you couldn't have more Relic X than normal X.
It's Darren Cooper's ultramarine list.
I'm also not sure of Gareth Purchon's Grey Knight list. He's got a very weird entry under Elites- Dreadknight (87), 2 Twin Auto cannon (66). Total 153 . I'm not sure what the heck this is supposed to be (and I play GK).
Leo_the_Rat wrote: There's one list with a Relic Leviathan Dread but no normal dreads. I thought that you couldn't have more Relic X than normal X.
It's Darren Cooper's ultramarine list.
I'm also not sure of Gareth Purchon's Grey Knight list. He's got a very weird entry under Elites- Dreadknight (87), 2 Twin Auto cannon (66). Total 153 . I'm not sure what the heck this is supposed to be (and I play GK).
Relic is explained in the forgeworld book, but its basically slot not unit.
I assume thats ment to be a deadnaught with twin autocannons from the index but the points look wrong, but I'm no GK player
Leo_the_Rat wrote: There's one list with a Relic Leviathan Dread but no normal dreads. I thought that you couldn't have more Relic X than normal X.
It's Darren Cooper's ultramarine list.
I'm also not sure of Gareth Purchon's Grey Knight list. He's got a very weird entry under Elites- Dreadknight (87), 2 Twin Auto cannon (66). Total 153 . I'm not sure what the heck this is supposed to be (and I play GK).
It doesn't have to be a normal Dreadnought, it can be any HS choice. The GK list is probably just a Dreadnought.
Yes. You can make any model in your army a warlord. I always toyed with making it a conscript for laughs.
If it's a good choice is an entirely seperate matter. I'm fairly sure it gives up Kingslayer still, even though it doesn't give up slay the warlord or first blood.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Yes. You can make any model in your army a warlord. I always toyed with making it a conscript for laughs.
If it's a good choice is an entirely seperate matter. I'm fairly sure it gives up Kingslayer still, even though it doesn't give up slay the warlord or first blood.
WELL a Conscript under solid leadership would be hard to kill...
Yea. I think ITC ruled that spore shenanigan out, but otherwise it's a warlord you can keep safe until turn 3 and hide easily without impacting your army.
The ITC and ETC rules stop you doing that. Also bare in mind the tournament will have 3 Killpoint missions as a large source of points so the game will play very differently, hence why I went with Tau (pew pew)
Thanks for the link, it's very interesting to see what people are running.
I'm surprised at the amount of Thousand Sons detachments - there's 60+ of them in there!
All Ork lists are spamming boyz, same stuff there.
Some variety in the Necron lists, destroys seem to be the bees knees.
Annnd only one Eisenhorn showing up with his three single acolytes.
I'm just sad at the state of Space Marines. It seems like some people just take them to take some beatface captains and some scouts, ignoring much of the rest of the Codex. Except some cases that use Aggressors, Dark Angels Dark Talons, or Stormtalon Gunships.
And Space Marines are supposed to be GW's poster boys :/
The problem with marines is that they are the face of 40K and new players almost always start with marines (or dabble in them at some point). GW doesn't need to make them good for them to sell, lol.
I adore the Necron list which is just three Tesseract Vaults, lol.
Arachnofiend wrote: Space Marines aren't showing up, except for the units that are showing up, which don't count because... reasons.
Boy I wish you could read the rest of my statement.
I suppose I could have been more clear that I was responding to drbored. I thought it safe to ignore your comment since it amounted to "I haven't actually looked at the data but I'm going to complain about it anyways".
I ran through the lists and corrected some errors. That said, there is a fair amount of SM in there, and i see captains, librarians, LTs, scouts, tactical, intercessors, inceptors, aggressors, hellblasters, devastators, razorbacks, rhinos, predators, pods (!) , stormtalons, vanguard veterans... yeah, some units are nevet taken but that is true for every faction.
Fantastic to see a tournament crowdsourcing their list checking like this. It's pretty fun (in a weird way) to help by going through and checking for mistakes/misunderstandings.
I expect all the Drukhari players are a bit shocked at how they are now pretty much the most played codex. Not sure that's technically true but it feels like it!
Interesting that a lot of the "pros" (or at least "people whose names I recognise") are taking T'au. Gonyo, Alex Harrison... Josh Death I think is?
Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics doesn't seem to be on there which is surprising.
The only flaw I see with this method is that if there are people who haven't yet submitted their list for some reason, you could argue that by allowing them to submit it NOW, they get the abillity to edit it based on what they see here.
However there's so much data it's hard to see what meaning you could instantly derive to make list changes.
You DEFO need to take anti horde, and you DEFO need to take anti tank, and you DEFO need to take anti air!!!
The only thing i get out of all of those lists is that any Dark Angel should bring at least one librarian to double -1 those shadowswords.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Magnus is back, so with him Drukhari, Riptides and Necrons around, the value of autocannons has definitely raised.
In fact only in the recent Big FAQ was it ruled that you can't make your warlord a fortification! Prior to that it was totally legal to have a tree (Feculent Gnarlmaw) or wall (Aegis Defence Line) as your warlord.
Silentz wrote: BRB doesn't say it needs to be a character.
Warlord just needs to be a model.
In fact only in the recent Big FAQ was it ruled that you can't make your warlord a fortification! Prior to that it was totally legal to have a tree (Feculent Gnarlmaw) or wall (Aegis Defence Line) as your warlord.
Many lols.
I stand corrected, i thought i read it, but it was a "Character" to gain traits.
But ignore LoS weapons would ruin that... its odd choice.
I assume the goal is to hold it in reserve for 3 turns and then drop it out of the way, counting on there being not much left able to kill it.
Or hoping you don't get to turn 4.
Ordana wrote: I assume the goal is to hold it in reserve for 3 turns and then drop it out of the way, counting on there being not much left able to kill it.
Or hoping you don't get to turn 4.
With the Mucolid Spore? The point is that spores never give up VP's, making it impossible for your opponent to score Slay the Warlord.
Ordana wrote: I assume the goal is to hold it in reserve for 3 turns and then drop it out of the way, counting on there being not much left able to kill it.
Or hoping you don't get to turn 4.
With the Mucolid Spore? The point is that spores never give up VP's, making it impossible for your opponent to score Slay the Warlord.
Basically gaming GW's poor RAW to RAI correlation.
Perfectly legal, and as it self detonates technically you can also prevent kingslayer depending on the TO's ruling.
Because like.
I'm not on it.
[Nervously follows the instructions and resubmits by forwarding the orginal email.]
Not all the lists were uploaded in the first batch - mine was missed off as well as others. If you haven't already, just forward on the original email submission to them and it'll get added on with their next batch upload.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally, I thought you could only make a non-character your warlord in the instance where you have no characters in the list to start with (i.e. Knights, super heavy detachments etc).
Someone pointed out there was a bit in the BRB saying it says “choose a character” but then there are several different versions of rules for each of the types of gameplay.
Not going to get fixed now, but thankfully it is only happening in 1 list.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, thats... thats taking it way to far IMO (IMO).
It what you have to expect at any big competitive event, some people go to compete, some go for the lulz and someone will be captain cheese tastic/TFG. You expect it so it's fine though every new event tends to have a really, you went that far list. Though usually those lists aren't being run by the best players.
Silentz wrote: Fantastic to see a tournament crowdsourcing their list checking like this. It's pretty fun (in a weird way) to help by going through and checking for mistakes/misunderstandings.
I expect all the Drukhari players are a bit shocked at how they are now pretty much the most played codex. Not sure that's technically true but it feels like it!
Interesting that a lot of the "pros" (or at least "people whose names I recognise") are taking T'au. Gonyo, Alex Harrison... Josh Death I think is?
Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics doesn't seem to be on there which is surprising.
The only flaw I see with this method is that if there are people who haven't yet submitted their list for some reason, you could argue that by allowing them to submit it NOW, they get the abillity to edit it based on what they see here.
However there's so much data it's hard to see what meaning you could instantly derive to make list changes.
You DEFO need to take anti horde, and you DEFO need to take anti tank, and you DEFO need to take anti air!!!
I’m not surprised by the amount of T’au. I was going to run them myself, but didn’t give myself enough time to get everything sorted. I am surprised at the amount of Stormsurges though, and the number of lists with 3 Riptides. (I also think there is only 1 Y’varhna total).
Lots of Ion Hammerheads as well. Also surprised at the amount of Pathfinders compared to the number of drones.
As for Lawrence’s list – he has been away on holiday getting engaged from what I can see, so either his list has been missed off accidently or it was bounced back/not submitted or he can’t make the event.
People submitting late get a minor penalty though – so, they’d have to win every single game really heavily and hope that no one who submitted on time does the same, in order to win.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, thats... thats taking it way to far IMO (IMO).
It what you have to expect at any big competitive event, some people go to compete, some go for the lulz and someone will be captain cheese tastic/TFG. You expect it so it's fine though every new event tends to have a really, you went that far list. Though usually those lists aren't being run by the best players.
I know that and i do expect that, but if a spore isnt treated as any VP's and doesnt count for holding objectives it goes against idea that it could be a WL. And again IMO its stupid, never said it was legal and you shouldnt do it till it is faq, tournaments you play to win.
I scrolled through the lists, just to see which factions appeared most often. If a faction appeared at all, I gave them an "ally" tick, and if the list contained 1500 points or more of that one faction, I gave it a "pure" tick.
Ranked from least to most popular, we had:
Deathwatch/Harlequins: Goose egg, baby. The only factions to not appear at all in 260 pages of lists.
Space Wolves: 1 pure, 1 ally. Someone call the baja men, the dogs are stuck inside and they're probably scratching at the door to be let out, ten minutes from doing a gak on the carpet. indexes are bad, m'kay.
Orks: 4 pure. Despite the favorable ruling on Da Jump, seems orks have run out of steam despite good showings throughout the Index Era.
Assassinorum/Inquisition: 6 ally. Surprising nobody, the ally faction is only allied in, and the FAQ made that extra awkward.
Genestealer Cult: 6 Ally. Not a lot of nids players taking advantage of the nids' post faq deep strike abilities. surprising, IMO. You can definitely see these lists are designed for post-FAQ play.
Grey Knights: 4 pure, 3 ally. The perennial loser Codex, surprises nobody to see them at the bottom of the codex bucket yet again.
Ynnari: 8 ally. Oh how the mighty has fallen. We saw an absolutely staggering number of pure DE/CWE lists and not just with small allied contingents, with NO allies. Ynnari, it seems, have greatly fallen off in their effectiveness. ALso worth noting: Only ONE of these ynnari detachments was Drukhari - the rest were CWE using the predictable reapers and Shining Spears.
Imperial Knights: 2 Pure, 6 Ally. Worth noting that in most of their ally appearances, it was not just one knight - people seem to like the Warglaives ability to supply 3CP off a cheap super-heavy detachment.
Death Guard: 1 Pure, 13 Ally. Did NOT expect only one list to have over 1500pts of Death Guard, but here we are. Edged out in fact by the ol' sisters of battle. Death Guard most commonly featured in super-soupy chaos lists, splitting evenly with Daemons, THousand Sons, or other Heretic astartes.
Sisters of Battle: 1 pure, 14 Ally. Sisters continue a strong showing on the backs of dominions, celestine, cheap basic battle sisters and seraphim. Best index showing by far.
Note: Here in the mid tiers, I'm ranking based on my overall feeling about how MANY units tended to feature in allied contingents, how many lists were pure. numbers may get a bit funky here.
Dark Angels: 6 pure, 4 ally. Putting them here because typically those allly detachments were VERY Small, though they did have some dedicated pure players.
Blood Angels: 8 pure, 8 ally. Oddly, the FAQ didnt seem to blunt the popularity of the blood angels, though there are relatively few Guard/Bangle pairings (Supplanted almost entirely by the now massively popular Guard/Custode teamup, which we'll get to). the blood angels pure lists were also quite refreshingly varied, without a whole lot of spamminess and without being totally copy/pastes of each other. Seems like people are experimenting and interested in the blood angels, in contrast to the DA and GK who both had nearly identical showings.
Thousand Sons: 8 Pure, 12 Ally. Thousand sons were popular, and interestingly the FAQ change to move after deep strike totaly changed the ball game for them. Smite Spam is the name of the game here, with Ahriman and Daemon princes appearing in nearly every list, and Magnus in many.Rubrics, interestingly, make a non-trivial showing, outnumbering the number of units of basic Tzaangors. The times they are a-changing for the Sons, it seems.
Admech: 7 pure, 11 ally. Deceptive number alert: Many of the ally lists were 1300-1450 points of admech paired with a single knight, which was enough to make it a double-ally soup list by my rubric, rather than a Pure list. this is why im ranking admech over Thousand Sons here: People like Admech, and we're now seeing a LOT of stygies compared to Mars. This opens up nearly every unit in the codex, besides Balistari and the battle servitors. Everything else makes solid appearances, encouraging for htis previously troubled faction. The FAQ really seems to have helped.
Necrons: 10 pure. Upper mid tier showing for the necrons, despite their brand new codex it seems like lack of ally options is making it tough for the metal boiz. lists seem to be either super-heavy focused, or destroyer-focused.
Chaos Space Marines: 7 pure, 18 ally. Hoo boy lots of small allied CSM contingents. It seems like people are quickly popping in to CSm to get the small detachments of stuff like oblits, alpha zerkers, abbadon, etc to tack on to their mostly daemon soup lists.
Chaos Daemons: 7 pure, 21 ally. Can you tell that lots of chaos lists are soupy yet? Nurgle is the MASSIVE MASSIVE majority of all these lists, with zero slaanesh outside a couple DPs, almost no khorne outside a couple letterbombs, and little tzeentch. Interestingly, only two players paired thousand sons and tzeentch daemons. Lots of 50/50 nurgle daemon/DG splits, unsurprisingly.
Tyranids: 17 pure, 2 ally. very few nid players opted to use their ability to ally in GSC and through them the ever-popular Guard, almost every list either had tiny GSC detachments or no allies. Lots of shooting lists, but it's about a 50-50 split between shooting focused and melee focused - that's just notable for the usually melee focused nids.
Space Marines: 18 pure, 6 ally. Big jump. Interestingly, almost all the pure lists are PURE lists, no allies at all. Very few people are pairing marines with guard battalions for bodies/screening. Ultramarines take the lion's share as usual, with a couple ally showings being just Robert Gillman, but we also see Imp Fists, Salamanders, and Raven Guard appearing. Also worth noting that several other Ultra characters seem to be pushing people towards the boys in blue, such as Sgt Chronus, Tiggy and Telion. For those keeping score: more pure marine lists in attendance than pure Craftworld lists, Custode lists, Drukhari lists, or nid lists.
Craftworld Eldar: 11 pure, 12 Ally. Ranking them higher than marines because they had sizable showings in a lot of the ally lists, being that many of them were "effectively" pure lists, because they contianed one Ynnari model making a huge chunk of the list "count as" ynnari. Almost all Alaitoc, unsurprisingly, with the same units you're used to seeing. Despite the nerfs, it seems eldar are forging on with the same strategy, despite dropping in popularity to around the bottom of the top tier.
to be replaced by
Drukhari: 17 pure, 8 ally. A challenger approaches! Ranking them higher than CWE here because of the 17 pure DE lists, all but 1 was completely pure drukhari. It's the faction that makes its own soup baby! Lots of Black Heart, Prophets of Flesh, and Red Grief here, with a huge spread of units from the codex.
Tau: 19 pure. I will almost always rank a faction with more different units/strategies higher than a faction with similar numbers but much more cookie cutter strategies, which is why Tau here are above Marines and CWE. Lots of tau players but more importnatly lots of units and lots of subfactions being tried.
Adeptus Custards: 9 pure, 19 ally. "Oh, scotty, what are you doing, ranking the golden bananas so high with only 9 pure detachments?" Look, strawman complaining guy, if there's a meta for right now, here it is. Guard and Custodes. Astrastodians. Custotarium. Or as I like to call them, Custard. I know I just got finished talking about Variety in Strategy, but when you see 20-odd copies of VERY similar lists, you can safely call that a "meta to beat". And that meta is custode bikers or biker captains+Astra miliarum screening infantry. Interestingly, it's usually not Astra Miliatarum heavy guns doing the killing - custodes typically make up the lions share and gunsier Astra lists tend to be pure AM or taking cheaper allies. Pure custode lists tend to be a bit more "take more things in the custode codex" but when they're allies, it's 1000 points-ish of big fat bananabikes.
Astra Militarum: 23 pure, 38 ally. Oh look, the current tournament meta mirrors the 40k universe fluff in that HOLY CRAP LOOK AT HOW MANY SOLDIERS THE IMPERIUM HAS. Not only are they seeing a bunch of pure armies, and I mean PURE pure armies with no allies, the variety is staggering. EVERY subfaction appears in these lists, the only codex with subfactions in it to even come close besides the Dark Eldar and Tau. Tons of different units make appearances, and I'm guessing you can figure out which ones. Those ally numbers, however, are greatly overstated - after seeing the initial numbers, I went through and checked over the average point value of an astra militarum ally detachment when they aren't a Pure list...it's under 400 points - even counting lists that are like 1400 points of guard+allies. A couple company commander+3 infantry squads is incredibly common as a screening force.
Now, a bit of overall analysis questions:
1) are we seeing a Gunline Meta?
I'm going to say "no" here. No because if you prep your list only to prey on gunlines, you're likely to have a bad time - many lists have significant or primarily melee focused units. We are DEFINITELY seeing a lot of shooting lists - but many of them are mid/short range, mixed shooting/assault, and superheavy-focused as well as what you'd think of as a real "gunline" sitting in the deployment zone and shooting downrange and relying on killing you before you get to them.
2) is alpha strike dead with the FAQ?
It's definitely diminished, but Fast Assault is definitely a thing people are doing, especially Drukhari, Ynnari, Blood Angels and Custodes. We have seen a huge resurgence from factions that were nearly dead or diminished in the previous meta havng been preyed on by heavy alpha strike (see: Admech, Knights, Astra militarum)
3) Can you run non-fast assault units? Is assault in general dead?
is your name "Nurgle Daemons", "Adeptus Custodes", "Haemonculus Covens" or "nids"? If so, it seems, do it to it. it is worth noting that of the major factions sitting in index, 4 of 6 (orks, SW, GSC, Harlequins) are heavily assault focused, so as we drop those assault factions back into the meta, we'll probably see more assault. Slow Assault Marines is definitely not a thing, and you rarely see slow assault units popped into other lists without stratagems that make them fast (Stygies raven guard etc)
I too, am pleasantly surprised by the extremely high variety in lists. It does help that it is a very big event and the FAQ changes a lot of things, but it is nice to see people trying different things, rather than getting stuck in a single mindset.
The amount of bike Custodes lists is, a little depressing on one hand, but, on the other, I’d be happy to face them and smite spam them to death.
As you have seen a lot more of the lists in detail than I have (only skimmed a couple of the main factions so far) what lists have you got your eye on?
After seeing a lot of the T’au lists, and my own thoughts on building a T’au list, I can see them doing very well – however, Custodes bike spam lists will also give them a rough time, if the T’au just castle up.
As I’m playing Thousand Sons at the event, I get to look at things evenly without having to worry too much about invuln saves – meaning I’m generally not that worried about most of the Drukari – as they tend to generally contain 3 Ravagers, then lots of troops in transports and flyers. Biggest issue for me, will be the hard core, horde style lists of cultist spam and the lists rocking 4 Ionheads (inc. Longstrike).
Amishprn86 wrote: There was a list with 1k harlequins, you no counting that?
I looked through a version with 280 lists yesterday, the current document appears to have 340, so I definitely missed a chunk but I am also definitely NOT diving in to try and find the ones that got added.
Well, it's only half two in the afternoon but the internet is going to have to work hard to beat that for me today.
A really good analysis which is much appreciate.
I do think there are fewer "cookie cutter" lists, although Custard Soup is clearly one of them. As someone who has some custard soup in a box ready to play, I can understand why... not only is it powerful but it's enjoyable as well. You get the pros of "herohammer"... having a small number of units that smash face and you love... without the downsides. Having a proper army backed up by the most mobile and lethal units you can get is really, really enjoyable.
But yeah - although it can be argued that within most codexes there is a strong subfaction winner... I think there's a really good diversity of armies going to this tournament.
I too, am pleasantly surprised by the extremely high variety in lists. It does help that it is a very big event and the FAQ changes a lot of things, but it is nice to see people trying different things, rather than getting stuck in a single mindset.
The amount of bike Custodes lists is, a little depressing on one hand, but, on the other, I’d be happy to face them and smite spam them to death.
As you have seen a lot more of the lists in detail than I have (only skimmed a couple of the main factions so far) what lists have you got your eye on?
After seeing a lot of the T’au lists, and my own thoughts on building a T’au list, I can see them doing very well – however, Custodes bike spam lists will also give them a rough time, if the T’au just castle up.
As I’m playing Thousand Sons at the event, I get to look at things evenly without having to worry too much about invuln saves – meaning I’m generally not that worried about most of the Drukari – as they tend to generally contain 3 Ravagers, then lots of troops in transports and flyers. Biggest issue for me, will be the hard core, horde style lists of cultist spam and the lists rocking 4 Ionheads (inc. Longstrike).
Yeah, I mean, on one hand All Hail Our New Guard Overlords, but on the other... though they were far and away the most popular faction, Guard appeared in 21% of lists (document version I looked at, at least).
Compare that to..heck, any meta in 7th, Guard would be called "upper mid tier" with 21%.
Amishprn86 wrote: There was a list with 1k harlequins, you no counting that?
I looked through a version with 280 lists yesterday, the current document appears to have 340, so I definitely missed a chunk but I am also definitely NOT diving in to try and find the ones that got added.
Use the "See new changes" button at the top of the page and it filters out all the stuff that got changed. If it is highlighted blue it'll prob show you everything, but, if not it won't.
Amishprn86 wrote: There was a list with 1k harlequins, you no counting that?
I looked through a version with 280 lists yesterday, the current document appears to have 340, so I definitely missed a chunk but I am also definitely NOT diving in to try and find the ones that got added.
Use the "See new changes" button at the top of the page and it filters out all the stuff that got changed. If it is highlighted blue it'll prob show you everything, but, if not it won't.
It's mostly "I don't feel like spending another half hour scrolling, because I doubt it would change the overall trends much".
I'll prob take a more in-depth look myself this weekend, due to it being a bank holiday.
I'm starting to half regret spending 326 points on 2 contemptors, but, on the other hand i'm not expecting to see anyone else using the Osrion Dreadnought or Thousand Son Contemptor models - which i love!
Thousand Sons: 8 Pure, 12 Ally. Thousand sons were popular, and interestingly the FAQ change to move after deep strike totaly changed the ball game for them. Smite Spam is the name of the game here, with Ahriman and Daemon princes appearing in nearly every list, and Magnus in many.Rubrics, interestingly, make a non-trivial showing, outnumbering the number of units of basic Tzaangors. The times they are a-changing for the Sons, it seems.
Mostly Daemon Prince spam, I think. A few seem to attempt abusing DP datasheets between CSM, TS, and DG. There are 4 or 5 that take supreme command with Magus, Ahriman, and 2 DPs.
A few lists are quite similar to mine so I can't wait to see how they do.
I'll prob take a more in-depth look myself this weekend, due to it being a bank holiday.
I'm starting to half regret spending 326 points on 2 contemptors, but, on the other hand i'm not expecting to see anyone else using the Osrion Dreadnought or Thousand Son Contemptor models - which i love!
Thousand Sons: 8 Pure, 12 Ally. Thousand sons were popular, and interestingly the FAQ change to move after deep strike totaly changed the ball game for them. Smite Spam is the name of the game here, with Ahriman and Daemon princes appearing in nearly every list, and Magnus in many.Rubrics, interestingly, make a non-trivial showing, outnumbering the number of units of basic Tzaangors. The times they are a-changing for the Sons, it seems.
Mostly Daemon Prince spam, I think. A few seem to attempt abusing DP datasheets between CSM, TS, and DG. There are 4 or 5 that take supreme command with Magus, Ahriman, and 2 DPs.
A few lists are quite similar to mine so I can't wait to see how they do.
I'll prob take a more in-depth look myself this weekend, due to it being a bank holiday.
I'm starting to half regret spending 326 points on 2 contemptors, but, on the other hand i'm not expecting to see anyone else using the Osrion Dreadnought or Thousand Son Contemptor models - which i love!
You the list with the Butcher/C-Beam contemptors?
There is only 1 list that is trying the whole 9 daemon prince thing out, but a couple have more than 3.
Yeah, lots of Supreme commands running that. It's just under 1000 points, but, it'd going to do some work.
Yeah that's my list. Seemed like a good idea initially in my head and on paper, but, now i'm starting to think it might not be enough damage wise.
Yeah that's my list. Seemed like a good idea initially in my head and on paper, but, now i'm starting to think it might not be enough damage wise.
I use the same models. Love 'em.
I think you're pretty good. You have Magnus and two DPs in there, too, which is a ton of punching power not to mention smites.
Initially I thought you should put the C-Beams on one and Butchers on the other. That way at least one of them can move if you need it to, but I think I like your setup more since both can move occasionally and limit the number of C-Beams getting turned off.
Just make sure you use Cabal when you Death Hex and lay into stuff with the C-Beams.
The biggest issue I faced using Magnus is people with lots of DPs that hid in big units. I picked them off with spells slowly, but I didn't use Magnus to his full potential, because getting him charged was a no-win proposition (and he denied everything Magnus cast that game...).
Yeah that's my list. Seemed like a good idea initially in my head and on paper, but, now i'm starting to think it might not be enough damage wise.
I use the same models. Love 'em.
I think you're pretty good. You have Magnus and two DPs in there, too, which is a ton of punching power not to mention smites.
Initially I thought you should put the C-Beams on one and Butchers on the other. That way at least one of them can move if you need it to, but I think I like your setup more since both can move occasionally and limit the number of C-Beams getting turned off.
Just make sure you use Cabal when you Death Hex and lay into stuff with the C-Beams.
The biggest issue I faced using Magnus is people with lots of DPs that hid in big units. I picked them off with spells slowly, but I didn't use Magnus to his full potential, because getting him charged was a no-win proposition (and he denied everything Magnus cast that game...).
4
Also gives me an excuse to finally paint my Osrion
Yeah the thoughts with splitting them are around focused fire. If i had them as "pure" then the c-beam one could never move if it wanted to fire but didn't have LoS/was threatened by a charge. Having the butcher cannon lets it still have some firepower if it needs to move.
The reason is, if one gets focused down, i still have the 2nd. The butcher cannon can still have an impact on morale, and a 2 c-beam contemptor in the open is going to get focused eventually. Kinda a - "what do you go for?" kinda setup in turn 2, if turn 1 is spent just killing Magnus.
Yeah I guess a lot of people saww my games on Glasshammer and thought the Custodes bikers are a good contender as there are a lot of copy+paste of the list haha. It is a solid build and didn't get hit by the faq so will be good to see how they fare.
I'm gutted there is soo much tau as I was hoping to take them as a underated faction but that went out the pan. Still only a few of them are like my lists (gonyo went for a similar build) so will be interesting to see.
Those Guard lists are fun to read.
Its a look into people who read something online but don't understand what they read or how to implement it.
Basilisks are good, so lets bring 9 and nothing else worth a damn.
Leman Russ's are good to lets spam a bunch without any screens.
These are the lists that will never win the event but they hang around in the low-mid tier tables just making life miserable for people trying to have a good time.
Thousand Sons: 8 Pure, 12 Ally. Thousand sons were popular, and interestingly the FAQ change to move after deep strike totaly changed the ball game for them. Smite Spam is the name of the game here, with Ahriman and Daemon princes appearing in nearly every list, and Magnus in many.Rubrics, interestingly, make a non-trivial showing, outnumbering the number of units of basic Tzaangors. The times they are a-changing for the Sons, it seems.
Mostly Daemon Prince spam, I think. A few seem to attempt abusing DP datasheets between CSM, TS, and DG. There are 4 or 5 that take supreme command with Magus, Ahriman, and 2 DPs.
A few lists are quite similar to mine so I can't wait to see how they do.
I was expecting these lists to pop up the moment I read the FAQ (not taking any credit for that, I'm sure every other former and current Chaos player was thinking the same thing). If they end up doing well you can bet that Daemon Princes will get hit with the keyword limit like Commanders.
Yeah...those LR lists in particular look just terribad. Enjoy your shooting phase, because you get one. Maybe.
The first one (i'm going to call it the basi-list in my head) looks quite a bit spookier, to be sure, but mostly for vehicle centric armies. Against some of those nurgle daemon hordes I'd really question whether there's enough firepower in the basic guard bodies to make a dent in a swarm of nurgle daemons running up under cover of gnarlmaws.
Eonfuzz wrote: Thanks for the link, it's very interesting to see what people are running.
I'm surprised at the amount of Thousand Sons detachments - there's 60+ of them in there!
All Ork lists are spamming boyz, same stuff there.
Some variety in the Necron lists, destroys seem to be the bees knees.
Annnd only one Eisenhorn showing up with his three single acolytes.
im not surprised about so many TS detachments in particular supreme command, ahriman6+2/3 TSDp's are really strong.
1) are we seeing a Gunline Meta?
I'm going to say "no" here. No because if you prep your list only to prey on gunlines, you're likely to have a bad time - many lists have significant or primarily melee focused units. We are DEFINITELY seeing a lot of shooting lists - but many of them are mid/short range, mixed shooting/assault, and superheavy-focused as well as what you'd think of as a real "gunline" sitting in the deployment zone and shooting downrange and relying on killing you before you get to them.
take into consideration terrain, there will be lot of BLos terrain (see GT infopack), if you see there a good amount of Primarchs too that makes me believe tables will be good covered, so if you play a static pure gunline you are in trouble, last but not least each mission will have maelstrom so no pure static gunline can easily win in maelstrom
Not to complain but I think your spreadsheet is mixing grey knights with Imperial knights. I can't imagine anyone building a aux detachment of GK and there are no superheavy GKs that I know of.
Am I correct in that, there are no representations of WE in the entire event? Bummer. I like seeing what people bring to big events and compare to what I'm doing.
Am I correct in that, there are no representations of WE in the entire event? Bummer. I like seeing what people bring to big events and compare to what I'm doing.
Any Berserker will be Alpha Legion to ensure a T1 charge.
Hitting hard as WE does nothing when you don't get into combat.
Yeah, the one list that -might- have been World Eaters (has been ran as it in the past), but, it is being run as Alpha Legion simply for the cultist bomb.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Not to complain but I think your spreadsheet is mixing grey knights with Imperial knights. I can't imagine anyone building a aux detachment of GK and there are no superheavy GKs that I know of.
No worries. I'm checking why it did that. It scans the line for "Detachment" and preg matches to a faction list...so mabye the columns are out of order.
Hang on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Not to complain but I think your spreadsheet is mixing grey knights with Imperial knights. I can't imagine anyone building a aux detachment of GK and there are no superheavy GKs that I know of.
Ok check it now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also added a tab with the average points per detachment. I'll add min/max later on.
Am I correct in that, there are no representations of WE in the entire event? Bummer. I like seeing what people bring to big events and compare to what I'm doing.
Any Berserker will be Alpha Legion to ensure a T1 charge.
Hitting hard as WE does nothing when you don't get into combat.
2 alpha legion rhinos beyond 12"+smoke a nice -2 to hit at least if you start 2nd you dont see your infiltrated berzy being obliterated
Am I correct in that, there are no representations of WE in the entire event? Bummer. I like seeing what people bring to big events and compare to what I'm doing.
Any Berserker will be Alpha Legion to ensure a T1 charge.
Hitting hard as WE does nothing when you don't get into combat.
2 alpha legion rhinos beyond 12"+smoke a nice -2 to hit at least if you start 2nd you dont see your infiltrated berzy being obliterated
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah...those LR lists in particular look just terribad. Enjoy your shooting phase, because you get one. Maybe.
The first one (i'm going to call it the basi-list in my head) looks quite a bit spookier, to be sure, but mostly for vehicle centric armies. Against some of those nurgle daemon hordes I'd really question whether there's enough firepower in the basic guard bodies to make a dent in a swarm of nurgle daemons running up under cover of gnarlmaws.
There's always a number of players who just want to take an all-tank Guard list if they can pull it off. Regardless of whether or not that's good.
Not everyone at the London GT is a competitive player looking to make the cut. I was looking through the Tau lists earlier, and there's some quite casual lists included as well.
Am I correct in that, there are no representations of WE in the entire event? Bummer. I like seeing what people bring to big events and compare to what I'm doing.
Any Berserker will be Alpha Legion to ensure a T1 charge.
Hitting hard as WE does nothing when you don't get into combat.
2 alpha legion rhinos beyond 12"+smoke a nice -2 to hit at least if you start 2nd you dont see your infiltrated berzy being obliterated
You're doing great work. I sincerely hope you continue to refine your data, as it has the potential to be incredibly valuable for meta-analysis.
Your listing of a SupCom Detachment as "Aeldari" should be "Asuryani", as Aeldari is no longer a valid detachment-level faction keyword. There is one (1) Ulthwe SupCom, one (1) Alaitoc SupCom, and one (1) Asuryani.
You're doing great work. I sincerely hope you continue to refine your data, as it has the potential to be incredibly valuable for meta-analysis.
Your listing of a SupCom Detachment as "Aeldari" should be "Asuryani", as Aeldari is no longer a valid detachment-level faction keyword. There is one (1) Ulthwe SupCom, one (1) Alaitoc SupCom, and one (1) Asuryani.
Cheers
Thanks!
I'll go fix that one.
It might be possible for units since in a bare text file they don't wrap and there is one per line item. The only other problem is some people put things like 5x Strike Squad. Others put 5 Terminators, which makes it hard to find the quantity of models in the line. I think I can do it with 90% coverage with some keyword filtering.
I have completed most of the work on isolating the units through regex, tallying their counts, and averaging their points.
I now have a database of over 500 keywords that it searches through. It goes for the most wordy match first so someone taking "Warriors" for Necrons won't match to "Fire Warriors". Some keywrods like "PLAYER" and "COMMAND" had to get tossed from too many irrelevant matches.
You will notice many typos - those are from the players. The best typoS - "FABULOUS BILL" AND "SHINNING SPEARS"...though I think the former was intentional.
Based on count the top 5 most used units are:
INFANTRY SQUAD 197
SCOUT 127
COMPANY COMMANDER 121
HEAVY WEAPON SQUAD|TEAM 121
KABALITE 93
Not that IS are actually much higher, because a lot of people list them under "INFANTRY", "GUARDSMAN", "GUARDSMEN", etc.
Check out London GT40k's facebook page for daily updates on this years LGT Invitational which should prove to be a much bigger event than the main one with some of the biggest names in 40k competing for the title.
Daedalus81 wrote: I have completed most of the work on isolating the units through regex, tallying their counts, and averaging their points.
I now have a database of over 500 keywords that it searches through. It goes for the most wordy match first so someone taking "Warriors" for Necrons won't match to "Fire Warriors". Some keywrods like "PLAYER" and "COMMAND" had to get tossed from too many irrelevant matches.
You will notice many typos - those are from the players. The best typoS - "FABULOUS BILL" AND "SHINNING SPEARS"...though I think the former was intentional.
Based on count the top 5 most used units are:
INFANTRY SQUAD 197
SCOUT 127
COMPANY COMMANDER 121
HEAVY WEAPON SQUAD|TEAM 121
KABALITE 93
Not that IS are actually much higher, because a lot of people list them under "INFANTRY", "GUARDSMAN", "GUARDSMEN", etc.
The real question i now have is: If you allowed one entrant to use all 121 of those company commanders, equipped WYSIWYG, in place of a normal 2000pt list, would he win the tournament?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just one note - I'm looking for and not finding any Prophets of Flesh detachments in the detachment page of the documents, and I remember seeing many Haemonculus Coven units taken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You are also listing only one detachment for DA because your search term appears to be "Dark Angel" instead of "Dark Angels".
..for context, out of curiosity I'm trying to see how many detachments total people took from each major faction.
The real question i now have is: If you allowed one entrant to use all 121 of those company commanders, equipped WYSIWYG, in place of a normal 2000pt list, would he win the tournament?
My guess would be no.
They don't have Objective Secured, and 121 laspistols on average doesn't even kill one Tactical Squad.
Sure, most armies would be hard pressed to kill 121 models, but you just plop some power armour on each objective and you're all good!
The real question i now have is: If you allowed one entrant to use all 121 of those company commanders, equipped WYSIWYG, in place of a normal 2000pt list, would he win the tournament?
My guess would be no.
They don't have Objective Secured, and 121 laspistols on average doesn't even kill one Tactical Squad.
Sure, most armies would be hard pressed to kill 121 models, but you just plop some power armour on each objective and you're all good!
Interesting read and snapshot of the evolving meta.
Unsurprisingly we see a lot more Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau lists than we have previously.
Aeldari are out in force as always. As are Chaos and Imperium lists.
There's a ton of Tyranid lists that I didn't expect and also a load of Ad Mech.
Overall there seems to be more variety of lists and factions which is great.
Specific to my favourite faction, of the 5 Ork lists I counted 1 is FLG's Jason taking Reece's Dreadmob and its illegal. I suspect it'll get stomped too as I don't think he has much experience with Orks. One by a guy called 'Power' had all of his characters named which was awesome and he's taken an Ork gunline. Be interesting to see how that pans out. Looks like he relies on Kommandos and jumping weirdboyz around for objectives. The other lists are pretty standard, some more competitive than others but interestingly all see the value of Kommandos as late game objective grabbers, despite the FAQ. A small showing as expected of an index army.
Yes, but only in this singular detachment with token units unfortunately. I'll try to get the file put up a little later today.
Thank you!
That’s... heartbreaking. The only Black Templars units were 3 minimum Scout squads in a Detachment with a Librarian. I know why they’re there - for Deny the Witch - but that’s still a travesty. That’s not just breaking the lore, that’s beating it to death in front of its children.
Oh and Cenobytes. The game’s cheapest backfield out of line of sight objective campers. Without Grimaldus or even a Templars character.
Can we collectively ask the GW Rules Team to peruse this list document? It becomes evidently clear which units are horrible right now. There are only four Land Raiders, no Striking Scorpions etc.
Does anyone know the results of the tournament? My searching for information has only come up with complaints about the unpainted styrofoam terrain (which is fair, but still I wanna know the winning list).
karandrasss wrote: Can we collectively ask the GW Rules Team to peruse this list document? It becomes evidently clear which units are horrible right now. There are only four Land Raiders, no Striking Scorpions etc.
GW has shown to have lots of stats about armies and compositions at their own tournaments. I assume they are well aware of this document and took stats from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: Does anyone know the results of the tournament? My searching for information has only come up with complaints about the unpainted styrofoam terrain (which is fair, but still I wanna know the winning list).
Geoff won the Invitational with Custodes + Guard and an assassin. Winning the final against Tau
Mike Porter won the GT with Custodes + Guard and 3 assassins. Winning the final game against another Custodes.
Another Guard + Custodes and BA, an Ork horde, an Eldar soup and a Dark Eldar made up the top 3 tables for the final round.
Thank you for the information! Kinda disappointing that both tournaments were won by largely the same list, though. It sounds like the Custodes/Guard soup was rather dominant in general.
I don't know. The combination is really strong there is no doubt about that but its also very binary.
A couple of bad saves and you lose half your army and fold. But on the flip side you get games were you don't fail a single 4++ and its a complete stomp.
I think it lends itself to an army that can spike really well. You see the guy who doesn't fail his saves win the tournament but you don't see the guy in 158 who loses 5 bikes to a bunch of lasguns turn 1.
As an example the winner of the invitational played the same Tau opponent in the previous game of the GT (the Invitational finals were after game 3 of the GT) and he lost it (learning some things to do different that helped him in the invitational). He then also lost the 4th GT game to go 2-2 and dropped, probably because he was tired after so many games and couldn't finish high anyway.
karandrasss wrote: Can we collectively ask the GW Rules Team to peruse this list document? It becomes evidently clear which units are horrible right now. There are only four Land Raiders, no Striking Scorpions etc.
GW has shown to have lots of stats about armies and compositions at their own tournaments. I assume they are well aware of this document and took stats from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: Does anyone know the results of the tournament? My searching for information has only come up with complaints about the unpainted styrofoam terrain (which is fair, but still I wanna know the winning list).
Geoff won the Invitational with Custodes + Guard and an assassin. Winning the final against Tau
Mike Porter won the GT with Custodes + Guard and 3 assassins. Winning the final game against another Custodes.
Another Guard + Custodes and BA, an Ork horde, an Eldar soup and a Dark Eldar made up the top 3 tables for the final round.
Ordana wrote: I don't know. The combination is really strong there is no doubt about that but its also very binary.
A couple of bad saves and you lose half your army and fold. But on the flip side you get games were you don't fail a single 4++ and its a complete stomp.
I think it lends itself to an army that can spike really well. You see the guy who doesn't fail his saves win the tournament but you don't see the guy in 158 who loses 5 bikes to a bunch of lasguns turn 1.
As an example the winner of the invitational played the same Tau opponent in the previous game of the GT (the Invitational finals were after game 3 of the GT) and he lost it (learning some things to do different that helped him in the invitational). He then also lost the 4th GT game to go 2-2 and dropped, probably because he was tired after so many games and couldn't finish high anyway.
If you start looking at bad luck pretty much any army kneels over so bohoo...There's no army immune to bad luck so "army can be defeated by huge bad luck" isn't exactly a good point.
It's amplified a lot though when it's bad luck rolling on expensive models. 10 wounds on custodes bikes vs 10 wounds on guardsmen from rolling ones is a big difference.
karandrasss wrote: Can we collectively ask the GW Rules Team to peruse this list document? It becomes evidently clear which units are horrible right now. There are only four Land Raiders, no Striking Scorpions etc.
GW has shown to have lots of stats about armies and compositions at their own tournaments. I assume they are well aware of this document and took stats from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: Does anyone know the results of the tournament? My searching for information has only come up with complaints about the unpainted styrofoam terrain (which is fair, but still I wanna know the winning list).
Geoff won the Invitational with Custodes + Guard and an assassin. Winning the final against Tau
Mike Porter won the GT with Custodes + Guard and 3 assassins. Winning the final game against another Custodes.
Another Guard + Custodes and BA, an Ork horde, an Eldar soup and a Dark Eldar made up the top 3 tables for the final round.
Holy hell, anyone got the Ork list?
Battalion Detachment, Evil Sunz Clan [907 Points] + 5 CP HQ1: Zhadsnark Da Ripper (122) - WARLORD (Might is Right) – [122pts]
HQ2: Big Mek on Warbike (81), Kustom Force Field (20), Killsaw (15), 2x Dakkagun (0) - [116pts]
Troop1: 30 Ork Boyz (180), 29x Sluggas (0), Boss Nob (0), Shoota (Boss Nob, 0), Power Klaw (Boss Nob, 13) – [193pts]
Troop2: 30 Ork Boyz (180), 29x Sluggas (0), Boss Nob (0), Shoota (Boss Nob, 0), Power Klaw (Boss Nob, 13) – [193pts]
Troop3: 10 Ork Boyz (60), 9x Sluggas (0), Boss Nob (0), Shoota (Boss Nob, 0), Power Klaw (Boss Nob, 13) – [73pts]
Elite1: Painboy on Warbike (90), Killsaw (15), ‘Urty Syringe (0), 2x Dakkagun (0) - [105pts]
Elite2: Painboy on Warbike (90), Killsaw (15), ‘Urty Syringe (0), 2x Dakkagun (0) - [105pts]
Outrider Detachment, Evil Sunz Clan [875 Points] + 1 CP HQ3: Big Mek on Warbike (81), Kustom Force Field (20), Killsaw (15), 2x Dakkagun (0) - [116pts]
FA1: 30x Stormboyz (240), 30x Slugga (0), 29x Choppa (0), Boss Nob (0), Power Klaw (Boss Nob, 13) – [253pts]
FA2: 30x Stormboyz (240), 30x Slugga (0), 29x Choppa (0), Boss Nob (0), Power Klaw (Boss Nob, 13) – [253pts]
FA3: 30x Stormboyz (240), 30x Slugga (0), 29x Choppa (0), Boss Nob (0), Power Klaw (Boss Nob, 13) – [253pts]
The only sort of list Orks can run at the moment, Flood the board with models and hope the enemy can't deal with all of them/the game ends before they do.
The game is on the WarhammerTV stream if you have a subscription. I didn't watch it myself but I heard he lost (again lot of Guard with some Custodes and BA)
Ordana wrote: I don't know. The combination is really strong there is no doubt about that but its also very binary.
A couple of bad saves and you lose half your army and fold. But on the flip side you get games were you don't fail a single 4++ and its a complete stomp.
I think it lends itself to an army that can spike really well. You see the guy who doesn't fail his saves win the tournament but you don't see the guy in 158 who loses 5 bikes to a bunch of lasguns turn 1.
As an example the winner of the invitational played the same Tau opponent in the previous game of the GT (the Invitational finals were after game 3 of the GT) and he lost it (learning some things to do different that helped him in the invitational). He then also lost the 4th GT game to go 2-2 and dropped, probably because he was tired after so many games and couldn't finish high anyway.
Right - I still think they'll see the nerf bat, but the biggest reason they made the top table is there were so damn many of them.
Ordana wrote: I don't know. The combination is really strong there is no doubt about that but its also very binary.
A couple of bad saves and you lose half your army and fold. But on the flip side you get games were you don't fail a single 4++ and its a complete stomp.
I think it lends itself to an army that can spike really well. You see the guy who doesn't fail his saves win the tournament but you don't see the guy in 158 who loses 5 bikes to a bunch of lasguns turn 1.
As an example the winner of the invitational played the same Tau opponent in the previous game of the GT (the Invitational finals were after game 3 of the GT) and he lost it (learning some things to do different that helped him in the invitational). He then also lost the 4th GT game to go 2-2 and dropped, probably because he was tired after so many games and couldn't finish high anyway.
If you start looking at bad luck pretty much any army kneels over so bohoo...There's no army immune to bad luck so "army can be defeated by huge bad luck" isn't exactly a good point.
Yes, but there's a difference between "You could do no damage with your 100 lasgun shots by rolling no 4+ to hit rolls" and "you could lose your biker captain by rolling then re-rolling a 1-2 on your 3++ vs a melta weapon, then a melta damage roll does what a melta damage roll does to him"
It's still a 1/9 chance overall, but it only requires 2 dice rolls. The more dice you roll, the much closer to the expected average you'll get.
Ordana wrote: I don't know. The combination is really strong there is no doubt about that but its also very binary.
A couple of bad saves and you lose half your army and fold. But on the flip side you get games were you don't fail a single 4++ and its a complete stomp.
I think it lends itself to an army that can spike really well. You see the guy who doesn't fail his saves win the tournament but you don't see the guy in 158 who loses 5 bikes to a bunch of lasguns turn 1.
As an example the winner of the invitational played the same Tau opponent in the previous game of the GT (the Invitational finals were after game 3 of the GT) and he lost it (learning some things to do different that helped him in the invitational). He then also lost the 4th GT game to go 2-2 and dropped, probably because he was tired after so many games and couldn't finish high anyway.
If you start looking at bad luck pretty much any army kneels over so bohoo...There's no army immune to bad luck so "army can be defeated by huge bad luck" isn't exactly a good point.
Yes, but there's a difference between "You could do no damage with your 100 lasgun shots by rolling no 4+ to hit rolls" and "you could lose your biker captain by rolling then re-rolling a 1-2 on your 3++ vs a melta weapon, then a melta damage roll does what a melta damage roll does to him"
It's still a 1/9 chance overall, but it only requires 2 dice rolls. The more dice you roll, the much closer to the expected average you'll get.
Yes, this.
It's easy to buck the averages with 1 or 2 rolls (heck, 1 roll is guaranteed not to be average, since the average is 3.5 for a D6). It's much harder with a thousand, or a million, or ten million. Armies that spam infantry are on the end of the scale where you could pretty well approximate their performance just by calculating averages, while armies like Custodes have performance that is way above average some games, and way below average other games, but doesn't roll enough dice in a single game to hit the average as well.
For my own games, I played against the Alaitoc list above that came 2nd and lost 13-7, due to a fantastic last turn on my opponents part (good play, not luck) and a rubbish last turn on mine (bad play, not luck). I had been winning up til that point.
Game 2 I played against Blood Angels and got a win 16-4 win, which would have been a 20-0, but we ran out of time on turn 3.
Game 3 was against Custodes and Guard (2 Shield Captains, 9 Dawneagles, 9 basilisks) I won 13-7, but again would have won by alot more, we run out of time turn 4.
Game 4 was against pure guard, I won 15-5, made a horrible mistake on turn 1, which meant I couldn't table him til turn 5. Game ended turn 4. So time out + mistake.
Game 5 was against Chaos Demons, I lost, but again this was to time out we only had 3 turns and my opponent and I agreed that had it gone on instead of being 11-9 to him I would have comfortably won and either tabled him or only left him a couple of nurglings on the table (all his demon princes were already dead, his bloodletter bomb was dead and his horrors were perma locked in CC by the end of 3).
My take away: I need to practice more, not playing 40k for a month before a tournament is silly. I was playing too slow basically, so I couldn't compensate for the large number of models my opponents had to move. Also, I made silly mistakes.
I find it interesting that you ran out of time on all of your games even with the 1750 point limit. Can I ask what, you feel, was the reason for time running out on your games?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I find it interesting that you ran out of time on all of your games even with the 1750 point limit. Can I ask what, you feel, was the reason for time running out on your games?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I find it interesting that you ran out of time on all of your games even with the 1750 point limit. Can I ask what, you feel, was the reason for time running out on your games?
How did the 1st place list have a relic in two different detachments from two different armies. I thought your relics have to be from the same army as your warlord?
chimeara wrote: How did the 1st place list have a relic in two different detachments from two different armies. I thought your relics have to be from the same army as your warlord?
Your free relic must be. You're allowed to use the applicable relic Stratagems from any factions you have detachments of to purchase additional relics after that.
chimeara wrote: How did the 1st place list have a relic in two different detachments from two different armies. I thought your relics have to be from the same army as your warlord?
See FAQ's
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Basically, its a stratagem just like everything else.
This guard list is a trip and a half to read. I would love to see how he was playing this. Most IG players would consider only 30 guardsmen suicide but I'm guessing he made some clever use of the bullgryn and shadowsword to cover up his weakness to assault.
Kind of sad to see such a weird looking army regiment wise but the guy clearly knows what he's doing with IG from the look of it. I don't like the tank commanders being split across the regiments but they all can order themselves so it's really just an aesthetic thing.
chimeara wrote: How did the 1st place list have a relic in two different detachments from two different armies. I thought your relics have to be from the same army as your warlord?
Your free relic must be. You're allowed to use the applicable relic Stratagems from any factions you have detachments of to purchase additional relics after that.
I see, I've been playing my relics wrong then lol. Thanks !
This guard list is a trip and a half to read. I would love to see how he was playing this. Most IG players would consider only 30 guardsmen suicide but I'm guessing he made some clever use of the bullgryn and shadowsword to cover up his weakness to assault.
Kind of sad to see such a weird looking army regiment wise but the guy clearly knows what he's doing with IG from the look of it. I don't like the tank commanders being split across the regiments but they all can order themselves so it's really just an aesthetic thing.
I believe he played on the WarhammerTV stream for the final game against Orks. If you have a subscription you can watch it back.
chimeara wrote: How did the 1st place list have a relic in two different detachments from two different armies. I thought your relics have to be from the same army as your warlord?
Your free relic must be. You're allowed to use the applicable relic Stratagems from any factions you have detachments of to purchase additional relics after that.
I see, I've been playing my relics wrong then lol. Thanks !
It's amazing how many people don't know this really.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Oh hey, a winning list that cheated (probably inadvertently!).
5 CP for the BN, 3 for playing 1 for the Outrider Detachment is 9CP, not 10, leaving him with 8 for his games because of the 2nd relic.
The Vanguard Detachment of Assassins gives 0 CP as part of the FAQ that permitted it.
Before we get out the pitchforks, did they use all their CPs in the matches? Ending a game with 2 cp versus ending with 1 is not a big deal.
From what I remember, yes - he generated quite a few, too though. There were some other colossal screw ups - like the T'au player was using FTGG on his Hammerheads.
Don't forget that with that IG warlord trait, if he doesn't use all his CPs, each one is worth about 1.33 unregen'd CP on average, and if he does use all of them, each one was worth 1.5 (since you can try to regen them twice).
So combined with the IG regeneration thing, 1CP can be a huge deal, especially if he's ace at rolling 5+s.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Don't forget that with that IG warlord trait, if he doesn't use all his CPs, each one is worth about 1.33 unregen'd CP on average, and if he does use all of them, each one was worth 1.5 (since you can try to regen them twice).
So combined with the IG regeneration thing, 1CP can be a huge deal, especially if he's ace at rolling 5+s.
I don't know an unused CP was one never affected by the trait. It didn't generate points or actions, it was a deadweight.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Don't forget that with that IG warlord trait, if he doesn't use all his CPs, each one is worth about 1.33 unregen'd CP on average, and if he does use all of them, each one was worth 1.5 (since you can try to regen them twice).
So combined with the IG regeneration thing, 1CP can be a huge deal, especially if he's ace at rolling 5+s.
I don't know an unused CP was one never affected by the trait. It didn't generate points or actions, it was a deadweight.
If you can find a way to play a 2000 point game of Warhammer 40k and not use 10 CP, be my guest.
My army brings 16, and in its competitive iteration it has the regen warlord trait and relic, and I usually am at 0 by turn 3 or 4. Heck, even one re-roll per phase is 5 per turn, or 9 per battle round (since you don't do one in your opponent's movement phase most of the time).
I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
You're forgetting the part where a non insignificant portion of those "Astra Militarum" detachments are literally just a barebones batallion used as a CP farm for things like blood Angels and custodes.
If GW made it where CP was limited to the faction that generated it (or even better, the regiment /chapter/forgeworlds/etc that generated it) you'd see IG detachments drop by over half overnight.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
There is only one list in the top 10 which can be called a "gunline", the tau one. All the other ones have assault elements or are based around having high mobility or other gimmicks. Only the tau list has a screening element in front and shooty stuff behind, and even there we are talking about only 60 troops in front. Yes, this is clearly telling us that standard gunlines, like everyone already knew, are not dominating the meta, they are borderline competitive. You can take one to an event if you like to play that list, and can net you a win in a small local tournament, but at major events it will not cut it.
My first game was against Tyranid Carnifexes. Two giant shooty things, one Giant Shooty thing, 7 or 8 Carnifexes with -1 to hit, including Old One eye, and Nurothrope warlord. I won that one by 17 points after pinning him in his deployment zone the entire game.
Game Two was against one of the almost but not quite copypaste custodes lists. 8 Jetbikes, 7 Jetbikes, 3 Jetbikes, Captain on Jetbike, Dude with a banner + Generic Guard CP farm. While I did kill all his characters and one unit of jetbikes, his first turn crippled me, my Malestorm draws were bad, and I lost by a clear 20 points.
Game Three was against Two Shadowswords, a Stormlord, and a generic guardsmen CP farm. I lost first turn again, but given I have such low point models to shoot at the shadowswords wern't quite as crippling as they could be. [36 heavy bolter shots re-rolling misses is no joke however.] The game eventually ground to a statemate with us scoring an exact tie as I managed to keep control of a few objectives and distracted his shadowswords with too many targets. Celestine failed to slay his warlord with both of her minions and we tied as a result.
Game Four was against Adeptus Mechanicus. One Forgeworld knight with a strenght 16 single shot gun, 4 Dakkabots, 2 AA Dudecrawlers, Crawl and an infantry screen.Oh, and a unit of 17 Electropriests that inflitrated, charged killed something and then had some stratagem to take them up to a 2+ Inv. I took care of the priests with a Librarian with nullzone, but the Dakkabots cheerfully set about murdering my entire army with 72 shots, hitting on 4's,rerolling misses at strength 6 -2. Celestine charged them and died to the overwatch with them scoring 26 wounds. On overwatch. One again my excessive board presence allowed me to cling to objectives with my tattered surviours, and the knight finally went down. We finished on another draw.
My last game was against a guy noblely playing Imperial Fists, who didn't believe in using allies. 3 Vindicators, a Captain,Lt, 5 CC Terminators, 5 Devestators, 10 Intercessors, A big Dreadnought, and a Librarian and Chaplin with Jetpacks. I took turn one and plonked most of my army beside the objective in his deployment zone and nuked the big dreadnought, finishing turn 1 with me controlling all six objectives.. It only went downhill from him from there, and I finished with my record high of 63 points to his 26 or so. I was only suprised his list had apparently won three of the previous games.
Needless to say, with two draws dragging down my score, I didn't finish terrbly highly.
Looks like gunline marines and then smash captain guard spam gave you heartburn?
So, first game, I didn’t get first turn and Magnus then got killed instantly. Rest of the army then completely under performed. (Ahriman periled twice and died 1st turn even with a re-roll, had 2 other perils as well). Wasn’t a good game at all in terms of my performance, but a good game as a game. Game 2, he just got fortunate with getting a big Death Company squad, Captain and Lemartes all into combat with Magnus after deep striking. Even with the buffs on Magnus, he got the 14 wounds through to finish him off. Was a close game and was fully in my control until the last turn and a half. Couple of mistakes on my behalf, but a very good, close game overall.
The other 3 games, I played slightly differently and it showed. Magnus survived in all 3 and put in a lot of work. Doombolt, Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway followed up by a Smite (sometimes no gateway due to positioning) really put out a lot of damage. His combat ability also did a lot of work – pretty much soloing a unit of lychguard in game 4 and meaning in most cases, vs characters they only had to fail 2 saves for them to die.
It’s a tough call as to whether or not to continue to use him. Not having 1st turn felt like a MAJOR issue in a couple of games, mostly because of how the terrain was, as the tip of his upright wing was always visible regardless of where I placed him. I would NEVER, and I mean NEVER, take him to a GW run event, due to their poor terrain setups, but if tables have good sized LOS blocking stuff, he will be able to do so much work.
My biggest question going forward though, is whether or not a 3rd Prince, additional screening/chaff, a couple of Shamans and a bigger Terminator squad is better than Magnus.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
First place: The absolute most you can say here is 30/70 shooting vs assault, and only against a horde matchup where it's going to have to grind away with those hurricane bolters for a while. two eversors and the horde of vertus praetors do the lion's share of their damage in assault, with a tiny CP farm of guard tacked on.
Second place: Yep, primarily mobility+shooting. Flyerspam lists win by being a nuisance to movement (those big no move-through bases are really quite obnoxious in the hands of a skilled forward planner, especially the double-turn eldar ones) but damage wise, yep, 90/10 shooting vs assault.
Third place: 900 points of assault units, 1100 points of shooting units. Not a small assault contingent by points at all.
Fourth place: Eldar gunline plus double-smacking shining spears. 75/25 shooting vs assault by damage, those Shining Spears provide a hell of a punch when Ynnari for their points value. I guess if you count damage done via psychic powers as shooting this is a 'gunline?'
Fifth place: All shooting damage, mid range. Not a stationary gunline, but almost no assault damage either.
Sixth place: 700 points of assault, 1300 of shooting, about 70/30 split.
Seventh place: big ol gunline.It's a tau list.
Eighth place: big ol gunline. AM superheavy list.
Ninth place: 20/80 assault damage vs shooting damage. 5 grots and 8 talos are going to do the majority of this list's hurting in the assault phase, despite the presence of about 500pts of fire support.
Tenth place: Almost entirely assault, if it did 10/90 I'd be pretty surprised. All the shooting in the list amounted to about one basic character's worth of sniper fire per turn, compared to two smashcaptains, 38 electropriests and 6 dragoons.
3 primarily assault lists, 1 pretty much split list, 2 roughly 1/3 assault 2/3 shooting lists, 4 all shooting lists.
This is pretty much exactly the result people who were rejecting the idea that it was going to be a "pure gunline meta' were predicting. The average list puts roughly 1/3 of its points into highly CP-intensive, efficient fast assault units that can net massive dividends when they hit home, and 2/3 of their points on heavily CP-farmy shooting units.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
I would classify the top Custodes armies as assault armies for sure.
1000+ points of bikes (aka more then 10) and while a bike has 6 bolters each and clears chaff like crazy the main damage comes from CC.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Thank you Kdash for your work. Just one more question when you say where the armies placed that number is out of how many participants?
Out of 365. 366 were listed, but the 366th person didn't submit any results. 3 people only submitted 1 result.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
Are you suggesting that the below are gunline lists?
1st Place
Spoiler:
2nd Place
Spoiler:
9th Place
Spoiler:
I chose those as list 1 I have played against variants of plenty, list 2 I played against in game 1 and list 9 is a variant of my list.
List 1 can shoot a bit, sure, but it's more assault than shooting against many opponents, it has the ability to switch, but that is the nature of hybrids. List 2 doesn't stay still for a moment, it's mostly aircraft and dances around the board. The serpents are used for board presence and the ravagers shoot. List 9 is again a solid hybrid. Way more points and bodies in assault than shooting. It's actually mostly a board presence list that it is assault or shooting, though it can do both well.
Shooting does not equal gunline. DE has some of the deadliest shooting but if you call them a gunline you probably can't dress yourself in the morning.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
Are you suggesting that the below are gunline lists?
1st Place
Spoiler:
2nd Place
Spoiler:
9th Place
Spoiler:
I chose those as list 1 I have played against variants of plenty, list 2 I played against in game 1 and list 9 is a variant of my list.
List 1 can shoot a bit, sure, but it's more assault than shooting against many opponents, it has the ability to switch, but that is the nature of hybrids. List 2 doesn't stay still for a moment, it's mostly aircraft and dances around the board. The serpents are used for board presence and the ravagers shoot. List 9 is again a solid hybrid. Way more points and bodies in assault than shooting. It's actually mostly a board presence list that it is assault or shooting, though it can do both well.
A lot of people just blindly look at what units are equipped with to make their assessment of what a list "is" - they don't recognize "don't die and control the board" as a list type, though that's absolutely what several of these are.
The reality is there are almost no possibilities for "pure" assault lists in the game. I run full wych cult and I've got plenty of blasters, blast pistols, splinter weapons, etc. Locking enemy units down in assault and killing them is how the list wins, but a guy like this probably goes "that's a hybrid list! Gunline meta!"
So, first game, I didn’t get first turn and Magnus then got killed instantly.
Really? That's somewhat surprising. Did you deploy him in the center or to the corner?
Rest of the army then completely under performed. (Ahriman periled twice and died 1st turn even with a re-roll, had 2 other perils as well). Wasn’t a good game at all in terms of my performance, but a good game as a game
Ow.
My biggest question going forward though, is whether or not a 3rd Prince, additional screening/chaff, a couple of Shamans and a bigger Terminator squad is better than Magnus.
I think with Magnus two DPs are too much investment and he's better served with more smaller casters, but I haven't had enough games with him yet. I'm going down a summoning route currently though. You'll certainly get a ton of smites out of those shamans and DPs though.
So, first game, I didn’t get first turn and Magnus then got killed instantly.
Really? That's somewhat surprising. Did you deploy him in the center or to the corner?
Rest of the army then completely under performed. (Ahriman periled twice and died 1st turn even with a re-roll, had 2 other perils as well). Wasn’t a good game at all in terms of my performance, but a good game as a game
Ow.
My biggest question going forward though, is whether or not a 3rd Prince, additional screening/chaff, a couple of Shamans and a bigger Terminator squad is better than Magnus.
I think with Magnus two DPs are too much investment and he's better served with more smaller casters, but I haven't had enough games with him yet. I'm going down a summoning route currently though. You'll certainly get a ton of smites out of those shamans and DPs though.
The problem I had, was no matter where I placed him – due to the Search and Destroy deployment and the terrain, it meant, no matter what, Magnus could be seen (wing tips were taller and wider than the middle terrain sections).
The thing is though, as someone pointed out to be just before the event, 1 Daemon Prince without wings is only like 12 points more than an Exalted Sorcerer on a disc. Biggest issue imo with Thousand Sons. The HQs just cost so so much.
The thing is though, as someone pointed out to be just before the event, 1 Daemon Prince without wings is only like 12 points more than an Exalted Sorcerer on a disc. Biggest issue imo with Thousand Sons. The HQs just cost so so much.
I can see how Search and Destroy would be rough. I commonly run my DPs wingless as I just don't usually need them to jump over something. I'm just glad we don't have GK level HQ pricing.
What did you make of the contemptors' performance?
The thing is though, as someone pointed out to be just before the event, 1 Daemon Prince without wings is only like 12 points more than an Exalted Sorcerer on a disc. Biggest issue imo with Thousand Sons. The HQs just cost so so much.
I can see how Search and Destroy would be rough. I commonly run my DPs wingless as I just don't usually need them to jump over something. I'm just glad we don't have GK level HQ pricing.
What did you make of the contemptors' performance?
My opponents commented on them being a reasonable threat they had to deal with, but, I felt like I just didn’t get much out of them if I am honest. C-Beams just didn’t seem to do that much, Butcher Cannons did a reasonable amount though.
Will prob drop down to just 1, with double Butcher Cannons, however, if I also remove Magnus, then it would leave the single Contemptor as the only “lascannon” target in my army. At which point, it might just be better to go with 1 unit of 9 Enlightened and rely on the auto wounding.
Gunzhard wrote: I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
IG outnumber the second most popular faction by more than double, and most of the armies are predominantly shooting, and even mostly gunline shooting...
Assault based armies were heavily outnumbered here. Looks like most of the Nid lists were mostly shooty but even if we count those with the Orks and the few pure BA this is still a drastic drop, and where's the blood God?
Four of the top 10 lists function in the assault phase (2 custodes biker detachments, 1 haemonculus coven detachment, and 1 AdMech electro-priests detachment). These are all hybrid armies with both shooting and assault in them but I don't think even the most optimistic of people were expecting pure Khorne Daemons to succeed.
Ridiculous. A gunline army with a small "functioning assault" detachment does not somehow become a "balanced hybrid"... it's still a gunline list (with a small assault element), at most that's what we see here for "diversity".
I realize Eldar are considered a mobile force, which they can be, but they can stand and shoot with the best of them and looking at those lists it was still mostly gunline with some other small element sprinkled in.
Are you suggesting that the below are gunline lists?
1st Place
Spoiler:
2nd Place
Spoiler:
9th Place
Spoiler:
I chose those as list 1 I have played against variants of plenty, list 2 I played against in game 1 and list 9 is a variant of my list.
List 1 can shoot a bit, sure, but it's more assault than shooting against many opponents, it has the ability to switch, but that is the nature of hybrids. List 2 doesn't stay still for a moment, it's mostly aircraft and dances around the board. The serpents are used for board presence and the ravagers shoot. List 9 is again a solid hybrid. Way more points and bodies in assault than shooting. It's actually mostly a board presence list that it is assault or shooting, though it can do both well.
A lot of people just blindly look at what units are equipped with to make their assessment of what a list "is" - they don't recognize "don't die and control the board" as a list type, though that's absolutely what several of these are.
The reality is there are almost no possibilities for "pure" assault lists in the game. I run full wych cult and I've got plenty of blasters, blast pistols, splinter weapons, etc. Locking enemy units down in assault and killing them is how the list wins, but a guy like this probably goes "that's a hybrid list! Gunline meta!"
Ok now you're just talkin BS... your own conclusion regarding "gunline meta" was regarding the armies in attendance, nobody even knew the winners at that point. Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction and that's incredible on it's own. For the first time that I can remember we're seeing multiple lists with 9 Basilisks.
Of course it's smart, tournament play, to take the best units for every phase of the game; soup is obviously not dead, but let's not pretend that what we see is just everyday 40K.
Ok now you're just talkin BS... your own conclusion regarding "gunline meta" was regarding the armies in attendance, nobody even knew the winners at that point. Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction and that's incredible on it's own. For the first time that I can remember we're seeing multiple lists with 9 Basilisks.
Of course it's smart, tournament play, to take the best units for every phase of the game; soup is obviously not dead, but let's not pretend that what we see is just everyday 40K.
There were barely any lists with 9 basilisks. There were only 33 occurrences of them in the whole tournament.
In fact there is not a single Basilisk or Manticore in the top 25. The first singular Basilisk was Reece's list at #46.
#11 is nids with 33 GS, Neophytes, termagants, and some hive guard
#12 is Nids with 8 shoot fexes, neophytes, and 20 GS #13 is Shining spears, rangers, and ravagers
#14 is Orks
#15 is IG, Banehammer, and BA #16 is Bananas
#17 is hilariously almost all nurglings
#18 is Alpha Zerks
#19 is Alpha - 6 Oblits, 3 DPs, 3 drones, and cultists
#20 is Sons, Horrors, and Letters
#21 is Magnus, cultists, enlightened, and burning chariots
#22 is Dragoons, Serpahim, and Retributors
#23 is Orks
#24 is DE raiders and grotesques
#25 is DE wracks, talos, and mandrakes
Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction
Yea, because there were 34 custard detachments and the only thing that goes with them is IG. There were also 22 BA, which almost always get paired with AM.
Ok now you're just talkin BS... your own conclusion regarding "gunline meta" was regarding the armies in attendance, nobody even knew the winners at that point. Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction and that's incredible on it's own. For the first time that I can remember we're seeing multiple lists with 9 Basilisks.
Of course it's smart, tournament play, to take the best units for every phase of the game; soup is obviously not dead, but let's not pretend that what we see is just everyday 40K.
There were barely any lists with 9 basilisks. There were only 33 occurrences of them in the whole tournament.
In fact there is not a single Basilisk or Manticore in the top 25. The first singular Basilisk was Reece's list at #46.
#14 is Orks
#15 is IG, Banehammer, and BA #16 is Bananas
#17 is hilariously almost all nurglings
#18 is Alpha Zerks
#19 is Alpha - 6 Oblits, 3 DPs, 3 drones, and cultists
#20 is Sons, Horrors, and Letters
#21 is Magnus, cultists, enlightened, and burning chariots
#22 is Dragoons, Serpahim, and Retributors
#23 is Orks
#24 is DE raiders and grotesques
#25 is DE wracks, talos, and mandrakes
Imperial Guard more than doubled the number of the second most popular faction
Yea, because there were 34 custard detachments and the only thing that goes with them is IG. There were also 22 BA, which almost always get paired with AM.
You're counting detachments hah ok... there were only 8 BA pure lists and 8 BA used as allies. Again, I'm talking about the armies in attendance but conveniently switch back and forth to whatever medium suits your point.
You're counting detachments hah ok... there were only 8 BA pure lists and 8 BA used as allies. Again, I'm talking about the armies in attendance but conveniently switch back and forth to whatever medium suits your point.
The same rules apply to all other armies. AM was more popular BECAUSE OF Custodes.
You can keep ignoring everything else that was said though.
You're counting detachments hah ok... there were only 8 BA pure lists and 8 BA used as allies. Again, I'm talking about the armies in attendance but conveniently switch back and forth to whatever medium suits your point.
The same rules apply to all other armies. AM was more popular BECAUSE OF Custodes.
You can keep ignoring everything else that was said though.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
I think what is getting blurred here is the idea that if it's not a "pure gunline" there is no gunline... pure gunlines definitely increased. But any good tournament list takes the best for every phase of the game, and so many of the top lists are still mostly gunline with some fast or assault element. If you want to call it a "hybrid" ok fine, but the pure gunlines, and partial gunline / hybrids dramatically increased.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
Oh boy. You're fun. You're still ignoring everything else.
A gunline is defined by what does the work, right?
The AM in 1st and 3rd are objectively not gunlines. #8 is a gunline.
This guy took 93rd (3W2L) with most of his points coming from his last win against...another super heavy gunline (so he probably got first turn).
Spoiler:
Player Name Stuart Woolls
Army Faction Astra Militarum 144
TOTAL CP 8 (Battle forged 3 + Battalion 5 + Super heavy aux 0)
Total Army 2000pts
Bataillon Detachment, Regimental Doctrine: Catachan (1596 points) +5CP
HQ1 Tank Commander (167):Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) : Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
HQ2 Tank Commander (167) Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
Troop1 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol -[40pts]
Troop2 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol-[40pts]
Troop3 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword,Laspistol-[40pts]
Elite1 Bullgryns 4 (140) 2 x Brute shield (1 on Bone head 0) 2 x Slabshield (0) 4 x Bullgryn Maul (24) -[168pts]
Elite2 Sergeant Harker (50) Lead From the Front, Warlord-[50pts]
Fast1 Hellhound (73) Heavy Flamer (17), Heavy Stubber (4), Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon (20) [114pts]
Fast2 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Fast3 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Heavy1 2 x Basilisks (200)]. 2 x Heavy Bolter (16) .[216pts]
Heavy2 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Heavy3 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium Astra Militarum) [404pts]
Lord of War Shadowsword (390): volcano cannon (0) Twin heavy bolter (14pts) [404pts
This guy placed 120th (3L2W).
Spoiler:
Spearhead Detachment, Tallarn Regiment [1548 points] + 1 CP HQ 1: Tank Commander (167), Battle Cannon (22), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Plasma Cannons (30) - WARLORD - Grand Strategist.- Relic- Kurovs Aquila [239PTS]
HQ 2: Tank Commander (167), Punisher Gatling Cannon (20), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Heavy Bolters (16)- [223PTS]
Elites 1: Tech Priest Enginseer (30), Laspistol (0), Servo-arm (12)- [42PTS]
Elites 2: Master of Ordnance (30), Laspistol (0), Artillery Barrage (0)- [30PTS]
Heavy support 1: 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (366), 3 Battle Cannons (66), Hull Heavy Bolters (24)- [456PTS]
Heavy Support 2: 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (244), 2 Exterminator Autocannons (50), 2 Hull Heavy Bolters (16), 2 Pairs Sponson Heavy Bolters (32)- [342PTS]
Heavy Support 3: Hydra (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
Heavy Support 4: Basilisk (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
How are you quantifying this? We just came off Shooty Tyrant and Fire Raptor spam, which was on the heels of Reaper spam, which followed RG stormraven/gunlines.
Nobody taking pure gunlines is patently false - we agree that it is not a meta regardless.
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
I think what is getting blurred here is the idea that if it's not a "pure gunline" there is no gunline... pure gunlines definitely increased. But any good tournament list takes the best for every phase of the game, and so many of the top lists are still mostly gunline with some fast or assault element. If you want to call it a "hybrid" ok fine, but the pure gunlines, and partial gunline / hybrids dramatically increased.
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
Oh boy. You're fun. You're still ignoring everything else.
A gunline is defined by what does the work, right?
The AM in 1st and 3rd are objectively not gunlines. #8 is a gunline.
This guy took 93rd (3W2L) with most of his points coming from his last win against...another super heavy gunline (so he probably got first turn).
Spoiler:
Player Name Stuart Woolls
Army Faction Astra Militarum 144
TOTAL CP 8 (Battle forged 3 + Battalion 5 + Super heavy aux 0)
Total Army 2000pts
Bataillon Detachment, Regimental Doctrine: Catachan (1596 points) +5CP
HQ1 Tank Commander (167):Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) : Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
HQ2 Tank Commander (167) Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
Troop1 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol -[40pts]
Troop2 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol-[40pts]
Troop3 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword,Laspistol-[40pts]
Elite1 Bullgryns 4 (140) 2 x Brute shield (1 on Bone head 0) 2 x Slabshield (0) 4 x Bullgryn Maul (24) -[168pts]
Elite2 Sergeant Harker (50) Lead From the Front, Warlord-[50pts]
Fast1 Hellhound (73) Heavy Flamer (17), Heavy Stubber (4), Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon (20) [114pts]
Fast2 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Fast3 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Heavy1 2 x Basilisks (200)]. 2 x Heavy Bolter (16) .[216pts]
Heavy2 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Heavy3 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium Astra Militarum) [404pts]
Lord of War Shadowsword (390): volcano cannon (0) Twin heavy bolter (14pts) [404pts
This guy placed 120th (3L2W).
Spoiler:
Spearhead Detachment, Tallarn Regiment [1548 points] + 1 CP HQ 1: Tank Commander (167), Battle Cannon (22), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Plasma Cannons (30) - WARLORD - Grand Strategist.- Relic- Kurovs Aquila [239PTS]
HQ 2: Tank Commander (167), Punisher Gatling Cannon (20), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Heavy Bolters (16)- [223PTS]
Elites 1: Tech Priest Enginseer (30), Laspistol (0), Servo-arm (12)- [42PTS]
Elites 2: Master of Ordnance (30), Laspistol (0), Artillery Barrage (0)- [30PTS]
Heavy support 1: 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (366), 3 Battle Cannons (66), Hull Heavy Bolters (24)- [456PTS]
Heavy Support 2: 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (244), 2 Exterminator Autocannons (50), 2 Hull Heavy Bolters (16), 2 Pairs Sponson Heavy Bolters (32)- [342PTS]
Heavy Support 3: Hydra (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
Heavy Support 4: Basilisk (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
How are you quantifying this? We just came off Shooty Tyrant and Fire Raptor spam, which was on the heels of Reaper spam, which followed RG stormraven/gunlines.
Nobody taking pure gunlines is patently false - we agree that it is not a meta regardless.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
Arachnofiend wrote: You'd think Gunzhard would realize that pure Guard being massively overrepresented and still not showing up ANYWHERE on the top tables would indicate the army underperformed significantly, but I guess once he has an idea in his head he'll take it to his grave...
8th place is pure guard.
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
I think what is getting blurred here is the idea that if it's not a "pure gunline" there is no gunline... pure gunlines definitely increased. But any good tournament list takes the best for every phase of the game, and so many of the top lists are still mostly gunline with some fast or assault element. If you want to call it a "hybrid" ok fine, but the pure gunlines, and partial gunline / hybrids dramatically increased.
Yep. Which is a pretty dang similar meta to what the tournament scene looked like before the deep strike nerf...substituting a fast assault element for a deep strike assault element.
Just the fact that the top three lists at this tournament are *highly suspiciously similar* to the top lists we saw at tournaments before the big FAQ dropped should really be an indicator as to what's actually substantially changed in competitive play as a result of the FAQ. Some competitive list elements have been reduced or stripped away (Blood Angels, the super-soupyness of eldar, Daemons) but most of what was good before is good after.
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
More asking for the purposes of this discussion. If someone is going to argue there is a prevalence of gunlines, I'm curious how they define a gunline. There are a lot of shooty armies in the lists that could be argued for or against.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
You said:
I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
Which to me implies that gunlines are going to dominate the meta. They didn't. The #8 player only fought gunlines himself aside from his loss to the Nid player with dakkafexes and genestealers/neophytes.
You could make the case that gunline/melee hybrids is the meta, but I don't really see the point of that. It matches none of the gunline hysteria post FAQ.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
I'm not even sure how you came to the conclusion from my words. 30 lasguns, mortars, and custard bikes is not a gunline. The "work" is done by the bikes who do have guns (it is the future after all), but do more damage in melee. No such army will stand back like a hat trick of basilisks and just shoot their guns.
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
Those are gunlines, because the BA are there to stop bananas and DPs. There is a distinct difference spending over 1,000 points on bikes than a few hundred of BA among a huge blob of IG.
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
You said:
I got a chuckle out of the "fake news" conclusion that this isn't a new 'gunline meta'...
Which to me implies that gunlines are going to dominate the meta. They didn't. The #8 player only fought gunlines himself aside from his loss to the Nid player with dakkafexes and genestealers/neophytes.
You could make the case that gunline/melee hybrids is the meta, but I don't really see the point of that. It matches none of the gunline hysteria post FAQ.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
I'm not even sure how you came to the conclusion from my words. 30 lasguns, mortars, and custard bikes is not a gunline. The "work" is done by the bikes who do have guns (it is the future after all), but do more damage in melee. No such army will stand back like a hat trick of basilisks and just shoot their guns.
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
Those are gunlines, because the BA are there to stop bananas and DPs. There is a distinct difference spending over 1,000 points on bikes than a few hundred of BA among a huge blob of IG.
So now we're getting somewhere but again you're making assumptions and ignoring the right numbers... I never said anything about "dominating" the meta, I never said pure gunlines were OP. Also sure, those fewer lists, that were mostly Custodes with some small "gunline" element have their "work" done mostly by the Custodes bikes; but we're certainly seeing more and more "gunline" - elements, big "work" or small, included in armies than at any other time in 40k... and further... again, you can count detachments or wounds or whatever you want, but IG had the biggest majority of units/armies in the event by a staggering amount.
I was going to ask what qualifies as a gunline in this discussion. If it's a selection of just long-range shooting units, or does an emphasis on shooting with some dedicated melee qualify. And what about screening units?
Lasguns do not a gunline make. The majority of concerns were AM taking huge screens and pummeling with as many basilisks, lrbts, manticores, and mortars that they could stuff in there. That did not materialize as an issue at all.
I still think it's because of time limit. Make tournaments three rounds with 5 hours per round, and the IG roll, imo.
The loss condition for most of these IG lists that I've seen is "Screens get swept aside, melee alpha units jump in and tie up the biggest guns". With the character-heavy imperium soup stuff, there's almost no way for the gunline list to not engage in a "screen v screen" fight because they can't target the custard bikers, then the bikers zip across the board when basilisks are exposed and tie them up. That's also why you see so many autarch bikers, they're doing the same thing (albeit with a worse model) but it's similarly effective because once you've got an artillery vehicle tied up, it might as well be dead for game purposes.
What difference does two turns of fall back - charge - overwatch - melee units attack make here? Once the gunline is tied up, they can't table AND they can't score. so how do they suddenly dominate given 5 turn games?
With Custodes and aliotoc being as strong as they are and -1 to hit army trait and or banner being as busted as it is. I'm pretty sure that is the primary reason why pure gaurd isn't played. Aliotoc SS can literally start on the board right in front of an IG gun line and laugh as for 2 cp they can have their who army be hitting them on 6's (or 5's if they are russ commanders) Then the game is over when quicken spears assault/tie up most the army/ and get locked with a company commander that they surround or something.
The primary issue in this game right now is minus to hit modifiers being broken. Look at the list with 3 crimson hunters aliotoc. Those birds are almost indestructable and have the firepower of a las pred (FOR LESS THAN A LAS PRED) holy freaking crap.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also ITT:
Armies that didn't win the tournament are broken and have indestructible units.
the 2nd place list had an alioitoc airwing with 3 crimson hunter exarchs. Gaurd hit them naturally on 6's. It is essnetially 7th eddition invis when playing against gaurd on a 12 wound model - it is essentially indestructibility. Also -1 to hit custodes is also freaking bonkers.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
Oh boy. You're fun. You're still ignoring everything else.
A gunline is defined by what does the work, right?
The AM in 1st and 3rd are objectively not gunlines. #8 is a gunline.
This guy took 93rd (3W2L) with most of his points coming from his last win against...another super heavy gunline (so he probably got first turn).
Spoiler:
Player Name Stuart Woolls
Army Faction Astra Militarum 144
TOTAL CP 8 (Battle forged 3 + Battalion 5 + Super heavy aux 0)
Total Army 2000pts
Bataillon Detachment, Regimental Doctrine: Catachan (1596 points) +5CP
HQ1 Tank Commander (167):Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) : Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
HQ2 Tank Commander (167) Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
Troop1 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol -[40pts]
Troop2 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol-[40pts]
Troop3 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword,Laspistol-[40pts]
Elite1 Bullgryns 4 (140) 2 x Brute shield (1 on Bone head 0) 2 x Slabshield (0) 4 x Bullgryn Maul (24) -[168pts]
Elite2 Sergeant Harker (50) Lead From the Front, Warlord-[50pts]
Fast1 Hellhound (73) Heavy Flamer (17), Heavy Stubber (4), Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon (20) [114pts]
Fast2 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Fast3 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Heavy1 2 x Basilisks (200)]. 2 x Heavy Bolter (16) .[216pts]
Heavy2 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Heavy3 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium Astra Militarum) [404pts]
Lord of War Shadowsword (390): volcano cannon (0) Twin heavy bolter (14pts) [404pts
This guy placed 120th (3L2W).
Spoiler:
Spearhead Detachment, Tallarn Regiment [1548 points] + 1 CP HQ 1: Tank Commander (167), Battle Cannon (22), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Plasma Cannons (30) - WARLORD - Grand Strategist.- Relic- Kurovs Aquila [239PTS]
HQ 2: Tank Commander (167), Punisher Gatling Cannon (20), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Heavy Bolters (16)- [223PTS]
Elites 1: Tech Priest Enginseer (30), Laspistol (0), Servo-arm (12)- [42PTS]
Elites 2: Master of Ordnance (30), Laspistol (0), Artillery Barrage (0)- [30PTS]
Heavy support 1: 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (366), 3 Battle Cannons (66), Hull Heavy Bolters (24)- [456PTS]
Heavy Support 2: 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (244), 2 Exterminator Autocannons (50), 2 Hull Heavy Bolters (16), 2 Pairs Sponson Heavy Bolters (32)- [342PTS]
Heavy Support 3: Hydra (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
Heavy Support 4: Basilisk (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
How are you quantifying this? We just came off Shooty Tyrant and Fire Raptor spam, which was on the heels of Reaper spam, which followed RG stormraven/gunlines.
Nobody taking pure gunlines is patently false - we agree that it is not a meta regardless.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
I still don't see how you can say the stuff in the top 10 was gunline. Could you point to which of those 10 lists were gunline lists?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also ITT:
Armies that didn't win the tournament are broken and have indestructible units.
the 2nd place list had an alioitoc airwing with 3 crimson hunter exarchs. Gaurd hit them naturally on 6's. It is essnetially 7th eddition invis when playing against gaurd on a 12 wound model - it is essentially indestructibility. Also -1 to hit custodes is also freaking bonkers.
Just wait til harlequin skyweavers hit the meta! 3++ for the turn for 1cp, naturally -1 to hit, Fly+Charge after fall back, and the same -1 to hit 2cp stratagem. A squad of 6 packing haywire guns that deal 11 wounds on average to pretty much any vehicle cost the same as 9 SS.
Yeah, they don't do as much burst damage as spears, but you just. can't. stop. them.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also ITT:
Armies that didn't win the tournament are broken and have indestructible units.
the 2nd place list had an alioitoc airwing with 3 crimson hunter exarchs. Gaurd hit them naturally on 6's. It is essnetially 7th eddition invis when playing against gaurd on a 12 wound model - it is essentially indestructibility. Also -1 to hit custodes is also freaking bonkers.
Just wait til harlequin skyweavers hit the meta! 3++ for the turn for 1cp, naturally -1 to hit, Fly+Charge after fall back, and the same -1 to hit 2cp stratagem. A squad of 6 packing haywire guns that deal 11 wounds on average to pretty much any vehicle cost the same as 9 SS.
Yeah, they don't do as much burst damage as spears, but you just. can't. stop. them.
Yeah - I fully anticipate this. I play against harlequins a lot already - they gonna be busted.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also ITT: Armies that didn't win the tournament are broken and have indestructible units.
the 2nd place list had an alioitoc airwing with 3 crimson hunter exarchs. Gaurd hit them naturally on 6's. It is essnetially 7th eddition invis when playing against gaurd on a 12 wound model - it is essentially indestructibility. Also -1 to hit custodes is also freaking bonkers.
I'm not sure what you want me to say, as nothing you've posted actually disproves my point (which is that you're silly).
Gunzhard wrote:^^ said Nobody.
Xenomancers wrote:The primary issue in this game right now is minus to hit modifiers being broken. Look at the list with 3 crimson hunters aliotoc. Those birds are almost indestructable
So now we're getting somewhere but again you're making assumptions and ignoring the right numbers... I never said anything about "dominating" the meta, I never said pure gunlines were OP. Also sure, those fewer lists, that were mostly Custodes with some small "gunline" element have their "work" done mostly by the Custodes bikes; but we're certainly seeing more and more "gunline" - elements, big "work" or small, included in armies than at any other time in 40k... and further... again, you can count detachments or wounds or whatever you want, but IG had the biggest majority of units/armies in the event by a staggering amount.
Because IG is super inexpensive points for the CP and token support they bring.
Adepticon was so completely dominated by gunlines. To even claim "certainly seeing more and more "gunline" - elements, big "work" or small, included in armies than at any other time in 40k" seems absolutely preposterous to me.
Bigger and yellow somehow changes the meaning of numbers?
By your argument let's ignore the 9 pure Custodes lists... 19 Custodes allies... that's still less than just the number of pure IG lists.
Yes Custodes + IG was very popular, soup is so far from dead. Next you'll be counting the number of Custodes wounds to make your point?
Whether you choose to ignore it or not, this is a meta shift towards more gunlines... yes there's other stuff sprinkled in, but way way more gunlines.
Oh boy. You're fun. You're still ignoring everything else.
A gunline is defined by what does the work, right?
The AM in 1st and 3rd are objectively not gunlines. #8 is a gunline.
This guy took 93rd (3W2L) with most of his points coming from his last win against...another super heavy gunline (so he probably got first turn).
Spoiler:
Player Name Stuart Woolls
Army Faction Astra Militarum 144
TOTAL CP 8 (Battle forged 3 + Battalion 5 + Super heavy aux 0)
Total Army 2000pts
Bataillon Detachment, Regimental Doctrine: Catachan (1596 points) +5CP
HQ1 Tank Commander (167):Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) : Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
HQ2 Tank Commander (167) Heavy Bolter (8) Heavy Bolters (16) Heavy Stubber (4) Battle Cannon (22) -[217pts]
Troop1 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol -[40pts]
Troop2 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword, Laspistol-[40pts]
Troop3 Infantry Squad 9x Guardsman (36pts) Sergeant (4pts): Chainsword,Laspistol-[40pts]
Elite1 Bullgryns 4 (140) 2 x Brute shield (1 on Bone head 0) 2 x Slabshield (0) 4 x Bullgryn Maul (24) -[168pts]
Elite2 Sergeant Harker (50) Lead From the Front, Warlord-[50pts]
Fast1 Hellhound (73) Heavy Flamer (17), Heavy Stubber (4), Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon (20) [114pts]
Fast2 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Fast3 2 x Scout Sentinels (70) 2 x Heavy Flamer (34) [104pts]
Heavy1 2 x Basilisks (200)]. 2 x Heavy Bolter (16) .[216pts]
Heavy2 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Heavy3 Manticore (135): Heavy Bolter (8)[143pts]
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium Astra Militarum) [404pts]
Lord of War Shadowsword (390): volcano cannon (0) Twin heavy bolter (14pts) [404pts
This guy placed 120th (3L2W).
Spoiler:
Spearhead Detachment, Tallarn Regiment [1548 points] + 1 CP HQ 1: Tank Commander (167), Battle Cannon (22), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Plasma Cannons (30) - WARLORD - Grand Strategist.- Relic- Kurovs Aquila [239PTS]
HQ 2: Tank Commander (167), Punisher Gatling Cannon (20), Hull Lascannon (20), Sponson Heavy Bolters (16)- [223PTS]
Elites 1: Tech Priest Enginseer (30), Laspistol (0), Servo-arm (12)- [42PTS]
Elites 2: Master of Ordnance (30), Laspistol (0), Artillery Barrage (0)- [30PTS]
Heavy support 1: 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (366), 3 Battle Cannons (66), Hull Heavy Bolters (24)- [456PTS]
Heavy Support 2: 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (244), 2 Exterminator Autocannons (50), 2 Hull Heavy Bolters (16), 2 Pairs Sponson Heavy Bolters (32)- [342PTS]
Heavy Support 3: Hydra (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
Heavy Support 4: Basilisk (100), Hull Heavy Bolter (8)- [108PTS]
There absolutely are more gunlines than there were before. A shift from "nobody taking pure gunlines" to "about 10-15% pure gunlines" is a significant shift. What it isn't, though, is a "meta" - if you brought a list designed to stomp gunlines with a poor matchup versus a gunline with a fast assault element, you'd have a heck of a bad time.
How are you quantifying this? We just came off Shooty Tyrant and Fire Raptor spam, which was on the heels of Reaper spam, which followed RG stormraven/gunlines.
Nobody taking pure gunlines is patently false - we agree that it is not a meta regardless.
I have no idea what the point of this entire rant was? ...to prove that "pure" gunlines are not "OP"? - that seems to be your goal, but I never even suggested that.
And "a gunline is defined by what does the work, right?" -- uhh what? ...a Basilisk can still fight in the assault phase, are you suggesting that it is not a gunline unit?
What about an entire army of stand and shoot screens and tanks, with 3 Blood Angel characters?
I still don't see how you can say the stuff in the top 10 was gunline. Could you point to which of those 10 lists were gunline lists?
The funny thing is I never said anything about the top 10 armies at all, but everyone is nerd-panicking that I may have suggested their army is OP, which I didn't. But ok... look at #8 that is without any doubt a "pure" gunline list. Many of the others have large and/or small gunline detachments included, whatever the primary "work" force of those armies are, is entirely irrelevant to the point - that we are still seeing more and more gunlines included even if it's not a "pure" gunline. Tournaments from previous editions have never looked like this.
And Daedalus81 - I don't think that list helps your point at all... those 4 yellow highlights ok... then what? Are you really saying those 4 armies = gunlines dominating?
So personally my biggest surprise from this tournament is how poorly Chaos performed. I was fully expecting 9x Daemon Prince+Ahriman armies to be dominant, but Chaos (which has traditionally performed well throughout the entirety of 8th's lifespan) got shown up pretty badly here.
And Daedalus81 - I don't think that list helps your point at all... those 4 yellow highlights ok... then what? Are you really saying those 4 armies = gunlines dominating?
Please rectify your statement with the Adepticon lists. You said we are seeing "more gunline elements than any time in 40K". That list refutes that statement quite considerably in my opinion.
And Daedalus81 - I don't think that list helps your point at all... those 4 yellow highlights ok... then what? Are you really saying those 4 armies = gunlines dominating?
Please rectify your statement with the Adepticon lists. You said we are seeing "more gunline elements than any time in 40K". That list refutes that statement quite considerably in my opinion.
Let me try to understand this... so you're saying those 4 lists that ally with IG "gunlines" in the top 25 = gunlines dominating. ...but the HOW MANY? lists allying with IG "gunlines" at London GT in the top 25, means ...means what exactly?
Arachnofiend wrote: So personally my biggest surprise from this tournament is how poorly Chaos performed. I was fully expecting 9x Daemon Prince+Ahriman armies to be dominant, but Chaos (which has traditionally performed well throughout the entirety of 8th's lifespan) got shown up pretty badly here.
One of the lists with 6 DPs and Magnus seems to not have turned up.
Another played 3 games and won all 3, but must have left after. Big early wins, too.
I think those were the only two with more than 3 of them. In the invitational the 9 DP list there (as least the one I was able to watch) got his distances wrong and the banana bikes crushed him and made spectacular saves.
And Daedalus81 - I don't think that list helps your point at all... those 4 yellow highlights ok... then what? Are you really saying those 4 armies = gunlines dominating?
Please rectify your statement with the Adepticon lists. You said we are seeing "more gunline elements than any time in 40K". That list refutes that statement quite considerably in my opinion.
Let me try to understand this... so you're saying those 4 lists that ally with IG "gunlines" in the top 25 = gunlines dominating. ...but the HOW MANY? lists allying with IG "gunlines" at London GT in the top 25, means ...means what exactly?
Am I missing something obvious?
I'm saying the Adepticon has massive amounts of gunline units and the London GT is way more pared down - mostly because the rule of 3 forced it. QED - there are not more gunline units now than ever.
Arachnofiend wrote: So personally my biggest surprise from this tournament is how poorly Chaos performed. I was fully expecting 9x Daemon Prince+Ahriman armies to be dominant, but Chaos (which has traditionally performed well throughout the entirety of 8th's lifespan) got shown up pretty badly here.
One of the lists with 6 DPs and Magnus seems to not have turned up.
Another played 3 games and won all 3, but must have left after. Big early wins, too.
I think those were the only two with more than 3 of them. In the invitational the 9 DP list there (as least the one I was able to watch) got his distances wrong and the banana bikes crushed him and made spectacular saves.
And Daedalus81 - I don't think that list helps your point at all... those 4 yellow highlights ok... then what? Are you really saying those 4 armies = gunlines dominating?
Please rectify your statement with the Adepticon lists. You said we are seeing "more gunline elements than any time in 40K". That list refutes that statement quite considerably in my opinion.
Let me try to understand this... so you're saying those 4 lists that ally with IG "gunlines" in the top 25 = gunlines dominating. ...but the HOW MANY? lists allying with IG "gunlines" at London GT in the top 25, means ...means what exactly?
Am I missing something obvious?
I'm saying the Adepticon has massive amounts of gunline units and the London GT is way more pared down - mostly because the rule of 3 forced it. QED - there are not more gunline units now than ever.
Eh man I dunno I think you're not good at numbers. Further the rule of 3 has hardly impacted IG at least. Look at Mike Brandt's Adepticon list, he spammed the heck out of mortars but it was all still legally within the new FAQ rules of 3 or otherwise. Rule of 3 mostly killed Flyrant spam. I don't recall the exact numbers from Adepticon but I'm sure we've never seen this much IG and/or "gunline" detachments, certainly not in that list of top 25 you provided.
Eh man I dunno I think you're not good at numbers.
If you say so.
Rule of 3 mostly killed Flyrant spam.
And Dark Talon spam.
And PBC spam.
And Reaper spam of a particular type
And Fire Raptor spam (points, but w/e)
And Mortar spam (yes you can still get lots of mortars, but it's way less concentrated)
And Enlightened spam
And Obliterator spam
And Commander spam (codex, but w/e)
And some Sister spam
Eh man I dunno I think you're not good at numbers.
If you say so.
Rule of 3 mostly killed Flyrant spam.
And Dark Talon spam.
And PBC spam.
And Reaper spam of a particular type
And Fire Raptor spam (points, but w/e)
And Mortar spam (yes you can still get lots of mortars, but it's way less concentrated)
And Enlightened spam
And Obliterator spam
And Commander spam (codex, but w/e)
And some Sister spam
But who's counting?
C'mon now Mortar spam is still perfectly viable, your "but w/e" items don't belong in that list at all, 'but w/e' let's just say anything to make a point then right? ...that said, I'll definitely give you Reaper Spam and Obliterator Spam, I forgot about those... but like I said the Rule of 3 didn't really hurt IG, and you're still only just dancing around the issue.
IMO soup was broken as heck before the FAQ, Reece declared that "soup is dead", ...well Long Live Soup cuz it looks worse than ever. I'd like to see more "pure" armies to be honest but the Soup allied with gunline is just too darn good - it's an army that can cover all bases and has relatively few weaknesses. If it were up to me I'd like to see some penalty to fielding Soup and I'd like to see Custodes and Eldar get more point increases. I never said IG were "op" but it's obnoxious to see that much of the same army at one event.
C'mon now Mortar spam is still perfectly viable, your "but w/e" items don't belong in that list at all, 'but w/e' let's just say anything to make a point then right? ...that said, I'll definitely give you Reaper Spam and Obliterator Spam, I forgot about those... but like I said the Rule of 3 didn't really hurt IG, and you're still only just dancing around the issue.
IMO soup was broken as heck before the FAQ, Reece declared that "soup is dead", ...well Long Live Soup cuz it looks worse than ever. I'd like to see more "pure" armies to be honest but the Soup allied with gunline is just too darn good - it's an army that can cover all bases and has relatively few weaknesses. If it were up to me I'd like to see some penalty to fielding Soup and I'd like to see Custodes and Eldar get more point increases. I never said IG were "op" but it's obnoxious to see that much of the same army at one event.
No - the w/e items belong, because they were in the game before the London GT and now they are not.
Mortars went from 11 points per mortar to 45 after the first 9. That's a considerable drop.
Rule of 3 didn't really hurt IG yet I don't see any IG that abuse rule of 3 to be overly effective.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Needless to say, with two draws dragging down my score, I didn't finish terrbly highly.
What army did you play btw?
I played Imperial Soup. There's a few early drafts of it in the Lists forum but the final List was ~
ARMY FACTION : Imperium [Adeptus Ministorum, Space Marine, Astra Miltarum]
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 20
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
Roughly 11,000 points were spent on these key words : Guardsmen, Infantry, Infantry Squad,
6,100 on Special Weapon Squad, Heavy Weapon Squad|Team, Veterans
Another 23,000 on Manticore, Basilisk, Leman Russ, and Tank Commander.
Or 29,000 points of real IG gunline and 11,000 of chaff.
Custode captains, bikes, and vexilus were 28,000.
13,000 was spent on Prince
18,000 on SCDE and/or SC 9,400 on Vertus
8,400 on Plague Drones
7.800 on Scouts
1,000 on Vexilus
There were 366 lists, I think? So of 732,000 points the core of IG represents 5.5%. My numbers encompass 695,000 points so pretty close - carnifexes and terminators gave oddball figures.
Oh Scout Sentinels were 3,100 so a bit more. Conservatively 7.5%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Add 15,000 for Baneblade variants.
ChrisWhite wrote: Does anyone have Nick Powell's Ork list? Came in 23rd, I heard it featured a tonne of Mek Gunz.
First game vs #3 - IG and Custodes. Lost 46 to 64 (pretty good)
Second game vs #175 - Nurgle, 3 Tz DPs, Belakor, and some other stuff. Won 37 to 18
Third game vs #239 - Ahriman, 3 DPs, 9 Enlightened, Blightspawn, Drones, 2 PBC. Won 56 to 3
Fourth game vs #115 - Baneblade, SCDE, Allarus, Wardens, Vexillus w/ Magnifica. Won 23 to 10 - super heavy list with a -1 bubble...lol Fifth game vs #98 - Tigurius, RG, Shadowsword and some other gubbins. Won 78 to 32
If his fourth game he score more and won his first he would have been a good contender. The -1 to hit bubble certainly dampened his abilities.
fluffstalker wrote: I know that Necrons only placed mid-tier, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has the top two or three lists?
Spoiler:
Daniel “Papa D” Hesselberg
Faction - Necrons
2000p
8 Drops
Super heavy detachment - Mephirit Dynasty
LoW Tesseract Vault (496), 4 x tesla sphere (4x0) [496]
LoW Tesseract Vault (496), 4 x tesla sphere (4x0) [496]
LoW Tesseract Vault (496), 4 x tesla sphere (4x0) [496]
Outrider detachment – Nephrek Dynasty
HQ1 Destroyer Lord (110), (Warlord) Warscythe (11), Phylacetry (10), Artifact - Nanoscarab casket (0) [131]
Elite 1 C’tan Shard of the Deceiver (225), 2 x star-god fists (0) [225]
Fast 4 x Canoptek Scarab (4x13), Feeder mandibles (4x0) [52]
Fast 4 x Canoptek Scarab (4x13), Feeder mandibles (4x0) [52]
Fast 4 x Canoptek Scarab (4x13), Feeder mandibles (4x0) [52]
Spoiler:
PLAYER NAME: Raphael Kubiak
ARMY FACTION: Necrons
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 7
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 1993 pts
Am I correct in that, there are no representations of WE in the entire event? Bummer. I like seeing what people bring to big events and compare to what I'm doing.
I was a last minute entry to replace a friend so my list is not in there, I showed up with this:
Spoiler:
+ ARMY FACTIONS : CHAOS SPACE MARINES, WORLD EATERS, RENEGADE
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
== Battalion Detachment, World Eaters == 1458pts +5CP
HQ1 : Dark Apostle (72), power maul (4), [Relic: BRASS COLLAR OF BHORGHASTER], Khorne -1CP [76]
HQ2 : Exalted Champion (70), power sword (4), [Relic: THE MURDER SWORD], Khorne - [74 pts]
HQ3 : Kharn the Betrayer [160 pts]
HQ4 : Deamon Prince with Wings (170), Malefic Talons (0), Malefic Talons (10), Tzentch, warp time, smite, WL: UNHOLY FORTITUDE - [180 pts]
HQ5 : Deamon Prince with Wings (170), Malefic Talons (0), Malefic Talons (10), Tzentch, death hex, smite - [180 pts]
HQ6 : Deamon Prince with Wings (170), Malefic Talons (0), Malefic Talons (10), Tzentch, prescience, smite - [180 pts]
====================================
TOTAL : 1 998 pts
Finished 170 in total - had a bad start and screwed up my second game against custodes and poorly played my game 3 ... the list is fun and do well and the terrains were spot on to help deliver the berzerkers where i needed.
It's not an ultimate all killing list but here's my results:
Game 1: against alaithoc Eldar with 9 spears, 3 prisms and 3 hemloc - L 14-6 (was tight until T4)
Game 2: against close combat custodes with Guirlyman - L 18-2 (kill points ... really hard to pull and messed up my turn 1)
Game 3: against another eldar with 9 spears, 10 reapers and 3 D batteries - L 14-6 (turn 5 i was winning, turn 6 got removed from the objectives ...)
Game 4: against shooty Thousands Sons Arhiman, las pred, defiler, helldrake, ferrocerberus) - W 20-0 (just kept him in the corner and sat on the objectives at the end)
Game 5: against guard with basilisks, leman russes, mortars and plasma scions - W 20-0 (kept him in the corner and scored massively with the modified mission every turn - didn't had much left but was too much ahead)
Marmatag wrote: I find the terrain interesting. Does anyone know if the london GT considered these walls ruins? or were they impassable?
I really like how well it blocks line of sight in regards to height, and not being too huge. I know it's crap quality but it seems really effective.
Ruins so blocking LoS but infantry could move through them.
On stream they were often playing with granting cover while in base contact with the walls aswell.
fluffstalker wrote: I know that Necrons only placed mid-tier, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has the top two or three lists?
Spoiler:
Daniel “Papa D” Hesselberg
Faction - Necrons
2000p
8 Drops
Super heavy detachment - Mephirit Dynasty
LoW Tesseract Vault (496), 4 x tesla sphere (4x0) [496]
LoW Tesseract Vault (496), 4 x tesla sphere (4x0) [496]
LoW Tesseract Vault (496), 4 x tesla sphere (4x0) [496]
Outrider detachment – Nephrek Dynasty
HQ1 Destroyer Lord (110), (Warlord) Warscythe (11), Phylacetry (10), Artifact - Nanoscarab casket (0) [131]
Elite 1 C’tan Shard of the Deceiver (225), 2 x star-god fists (0) [225]
Fast 4 x Canoptek Scarab (4x13), Feeder mandibles (4x0) [52]
Fast 4 x Canoptek Scarab (4x13), Feeder mandibles (4x0) [52]
Fast 4 x Canoptek Scarab (4x13), Feeder mandibles (4x0) [52]
Spoiler:
PLAYER NAME: Raphael Kubiak
ARMY FACTION: Necrons
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 7
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 1993 pts
Marmatag wrote: I find the terrain interesting. Does anyone know if the london GT considered these walls ruins? or were they impassable?
I really like how well it blocks line of sight in regards to height, and not being too huge. I know it's crap quality but it seems really effective.
Ruins so blocking LoS but infantry could move through them.
On stream they were often playing with granting cover while in base contact with the walls aswell.
I feel like 8th expects all terrain to have a base with rubble around it.
Marmatag wrote: I find the terrain interesting. Does anyone know if the london GT considered these walls ruins? or were they impassable?
I really like how well it blocks line of sight in regards to height, and not being too huge. I know it's crap quality but it seems really effective.
Ruins so blocking LoS but infantry could move through them.
On stream they were often playing with granting cover while in base contact with the walls aswell.
I feel like 8th expects all terrain to have a base with rubble around it.
Yeah, it was played as fully LOS blocking ruins - however, some people played it as giving cover when in base contact with it, a lot of people didn't. Generally agreed beforehand. Not sure it's fully visible in most of the pics, but the larger middle pieces actually had a ledge built into them, running the entire length of the inside edges. The smaller pieces didn't. Everyone played the ledge as cover if you had models on it. In my games we also played it as "if you're on top of the terrain piece you also get cover", but i can't say if others did it (but presume so). We didn't use the base contact in any of my games, as we decided that being in base contact doesn't constitute being "in" the terrain piece - especially as they didn't have defined base areas. I wasn't bothered either way.
The "hills" were played as a mix of hills (so no cover at all) or due to their shape etc, giving cover. Some of my games played it as giving cover if fully on it, my other games didn't. We just talked it over each game.
The "woods" sections - which were usually a bit of card surrounded with cement generally got ignored some of my tables didn't even have them on there. I think the cover bonus only came up in game 1, with them, the rest of the time they had zero impact on the game and didn't need to be there.
Lack of consistency was completely down to the terrain situation on each table, regardless of what the player pack said everything way. If you see a piece of paper on each side of the table, most people aren't going to even bother considering it as "terrain",
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing i will repeat over and over again though,
While the terrain sucked from a visual point of view, and from a rules consistency point of view. It WAS functional and it DID lead to interesting games.
All they need to do now, is keep the layouts as they were, but change the physical terrain to a standard expected of a major, live streamed (on several channels) event.
It would be neat to play trees where if you drew a straight line from base to base 1mm thick, if it touched or passed over the terrain with trees, they granted a cover save. So they don't block line of sight but offer some cover even if you're not standing in them.
Hey Daedalus, not sure if this is possible, but does your model allow you to quickly search how many lists contained Custodes excluding Shield Captains, Vexillas or Vertus Praetors/Jetbikes? As in not excluding lists with those words, but not counting those lists as containing Custodes unless they contain other Custodes units?
I suppose as a rough estimate, could you maybe see how many lists contained the words ‘Guardian Spear’?
kombatwombat wrote: Hey Daedalus, not sure if this is possible, but does your model allow you to quickly search how many lists contained Custodes excluding Shield Captains, Vexillas or Vertus Praetors/Jetbikes? As in not excluding lists with those words, but not counting those lists as containing Custodes unless they contain other Custodes units?
I suppose as a rough estimate, could you maybe see how many lists contained the words ‘Guardian Spear’?
(note that just searching for Guardian Spear will get you a bunch of Vexilla's and otherwise bike armies.
Thank you.
I did a search for Custodian Guard and yielded 5 lists. Of those the two you mentioned were pure. Amongst 360 lists, I think it’s fair to say that Custodes are not overpowered or even particularly competitive.
What really worries me is that GW will see that Jetbikes are undercosted and bump their costs up, without understanding that they are a crutch that holds up the rest of the book. What Custodes really need is a solid points hike for Jetbikes (Shield Captains or no) and an equally solid points drop across the rest of the Custodes Codex to compensate so we start seeing some variation in competitive Custodes and not just 3 Shield Captain Jetbikes shoehorned into a Guard/Soup army.
(note that just searching for Guardian Spear will get you a bunch of Vexilla's and otherwise bike armies.
Thank you.
I did a search for Custodian Guard and yielded 5 lists. Of those the two you mentioned were pure. Amongst 360 lists, I think it’s fair to say that Custodes are not overpowered or even particularly competitive.
What really worries me is that GW will see that Jetbikes are undercosted and bump their costs up, without understanding that they are a crutch that holds up the rest of the book. What Custodes really need is a solid points hike for Jetbikes (Shield Captains or no) and an equally solid points drop across the rest of the Custodes Codex to compensate so we start seeing some variation in competitive Custodes and not just 3 Shield Captain Jetbikes shoehorned into a Guard/Soup army.
Doesn't work that way.
Custodes models are to expensive with bad (for their cost) shooting that have to walk across the table or deepstrike, in turn 2, stand around for a turn and then maybe charge in turn 3 if your enemy lets you but possibly never as his army simply retreats and feeds you some chaff.
I don't think there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam.
Ordana wrote: Doesn't work that way.
Custodes models are to expensive with bad (for their cost) shooting that have to walk across the table or deepstrike, in turn 2, stand around for a turn and then maybe charge in turn 3 if your enemy lets you but possibly never as his army simply retreats and feeds you some chaff.
I don't think there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam.
I disagree, but with a significant caveat. They are a very heavy duty army that requires anti-tank and/or mortal wounds to deal with. If you lack the weapons you don’t have much of a hope of actually killing them. What they lack is a distraction to provide some cover fire and soak up your opponent’s heavy weapons for a turn or two while your basic Guardians get into charge range.
In short, there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam, once they get the rules for their 30k vehicles. Those grav tanks and Dreadnoughts aren’t actually very good at all, but in a game yesterday a Telemon and a Caladius entirely occupied the bulk of my opponent’s heavy weapons, and 3 Jetbikes absorbed all of his Mortal Wounds. Between the two the rest of my army had two full turns to advance relatively unmolested and get into stabby range. And if you can get more than half of a Custodes army into combat they’re going to wreck face.
With their 30k vehicles available, a points hike for Jetbikes and a points drop scattered across the rest of the army, you could end up with a very competitive combined arms faction.
Ordana wrote: Doesn't work that way.
Custodes models are to expensive with bad (for their cost) shooting that have to walk across the table or deepstrike, in turn 2, stand around for a turn and then maybe charge in turn 3 if your enemy lets you but possibly never as his army simply retreats and feeds you some chaff.
I don't think there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam.
I disagree, but with a significant caveat. They are a very heavy duty army that requires anti-tank and/or mortal wounds to deal with. If you lack the weapons you don’t have much of a hope of actually killing them. What they lack is a distraction to provide some cover fire and soak up your opponent’s heavy weapons for a turn or two while your basic Guardians get into charge range.
In short, there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam, once they get the rules for their 30k vehicles. Those grav tanks and Dreadnoughts aren’t actually very good at all, but in a game yesterday a Telemon and a Caladius entirely occupied the bulk of my opponent’s heavy weapons, and 3 Jetbikes absorbed all of his Mortal Wounds. Between the two the rest of my army had two full turns to advance relatively unmolested and get into stabby range. And if you can get more than half of a Custodes army into combat they’re going to wreck face.
With their 30k vehicles available, a points hike for Jetbikes and a points drop scattered across the rest of the army, you could end up with a very competitive combined arms faction.
A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
Ordana wrote: A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
Woah hold up what backwater hick town are you from that doesn’t allow FW in tournaments this edition?
I mean I come from a backwater hick town as cities go (Perth) and even the old grognards welcome FW here. Given how many tournaments try to emulate the ETC/ITC environments or even the real GWGT circuit, I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a predominance of FW banning.
Ordana wrote: A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
Woah hold up what backwater hick town are you from that doesn’t allow FW in tournaments this edition?
I mean I come from a backwater hick town as cities go (Perth) and even the old grognards welcome FW here. Given how many tournaments try to emulate the ETC/ITC environments or even the real GWGT circuit, I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a predominance of FW banning.
Ordana wrote: A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
Woah hold up what backwater hick town are you from that doesn’t allow FW in tournaments this edition?
I mean I come from a backwater hick town as cities go (Perth) and even the old grognards welcome FW here. Given how many tournaments try to emulate the ETC/ITC environments or even the real GWGT circuit, I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a predominance of FW banning.
The entire ETC for starters?
And about a quarter of the US Tournaments. There's a reason FW is so rare even at GTs that allow them. A lot of tournament players won't bother with models that they can only take to certain events. FW has made a lot of strides, but until they match GW is rules balance and speed of FAQing
*pause*
..., but until they match GW is rules balance and speed of FAQing
My Emperor. Who the hell ever thought that sentence would be written? The warp is clearly shaping reality in the past year.
Ordana wrote: A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
Woah hold up what backwater hick town are you from that doesn’t allow FW in tournaments this edition?
I mean I come from a backwater hick town as cities go (Perth) and even the old grognards welcome FW here. Given how many tournaments try to emulate the ETC/ITC environments or even the real GWGT circuit, I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a predominance of FW banning.
The entire ETC for starters?
And about a quarter of the US Tournaments. There's a reason FW is so rare even at GTs that allow them. A lot of tournament players won't bother with models that they can only take to certain events. FW has made a lot of strides, but until they match GW is rules balance and speed of FAQing
*pause*
..., but until they match GW is rules balance and speed of FAQing
My Emperor. Who the hell ever thought that sentence would be written? The warp is clearly shaping reality in the past year.
Yeah, I gave up on any idea of ever purchasing a forgeworld model pretty much ever again after over a year into the edition, 80% of my forgeworld stuff doesn't have rules for 8th ed 40k at all (fires of cyraxus coming SOONtm ) and the remaining 20% got smacked with gigantic nerfs in Kneejerk Approved, presumably because GW just shrugged, decided forgeworld could never be trusted to get their gak together, and nerfed everything with a nice wet blanket slap.
Ordana wrote: A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
Woah hold up what backwater hick town are you from that doesn’t allow FW in tournaments this edition?
I mean I come from a backwater hick town as cities go (Perth) and even the old grognards welcome FW here. Given how many tournaments try to emulate the ETC/ITC environments or even the real GWGT circuit, I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a predominance of FW banning.
The entire ETC for starters?
And about a quarter of the US Tournaments. There's a reason FW is so rare even at GTs that allow them. A lot of tournament players won't bother with models that they can only take to certain events. FW has made a lot of strides, but until they match GW is rules balance and speed of FAQing
*pause*
..., but until they match GW is rules balance and speed of FAQing
My Emperor. Who the hell ever thought that sentence would be written? The warp is clearly shaping reality in the past year.
I would say it's way less than a quarter and none of the majors. LVO, NOVA and Adepticon all allow Forgeworld.
Also, lots of top-tier players buy them so I have no idea where that notion came from. Did we forget so soon about Fire Raptor spam which was everywhere for awhile? Fire Raptors are Forgeworld models. 7th Edition had Skatach Wraithknights ALL OVER the place. Those are Forgeworld. Forgeworld shows up in lots of places.
Gotta agree with the backwater hick sentiment for places that disallow Forgeworld. Forgeworld stuff even gets balanced in Chapter Approved for crying out loud.
Ordana wrote: A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
Woah hold up what backwater hick town are you from that doesn’t allow FW in tournaments this edition?
I mean I come from a backwater hick town as cities go (Perth) and even the old grognards welcome FW here. Given how many tournaments try to emulate the ETC/ITC environments or even the real GWGT circuit, I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a predominance of FW banning.
The entire ETC for starters?
Bloody Nora, do you guys not let gay people get married or women vote either?
I never thought Australia would lead Europe in What Should Be The Bleeding Obvious, but as I live and breathe...
Ordana wrote: Doesn't work that way.
Custodes models are to expensive with bad (for their cost) shooting that have to walk across the table or deepstrike, in turn 2, stand around for a turn and then maybe charge in turn 3 if your enemy lets you but possibly never as his army simply retreats and feeds you some chaff.
I don't think there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam.
I disagree, but with a significant caveat. They are a very heavy duty army that requires anti-tank and/or mortal wounds to deal with. If you lack the weapons you don’t have much of a hope of actually killing them. What they lack is a distraction to provide some cover fire and soak up your opponent’s heavy weapons for a turn or two while your basic Guardians get into charge range.
In short, there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam, once they get the rules for their 30k vehicles. Those grav tanks and Dreadnoughts aren’t actually very good at all, but in a game yesterday a Telemon and a Caladius entirely occupied the bulk of my opponent’s heavy weapons, and 3 Jetbikes absorbed all of his Mortal Wounds. Between the two the rest of my army had two full turns to advance relatively unmolested and get into stabby range. And if you can get more than half of a Custodes army into combat they’re going to wreck face.
With their 30k vehicles available, a points hike for Jetbikes and a points drop scattered across the rest of the army, you could end up with a very competitive combined arms faction.
A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
tbf, most NA tournaments allow forgeworld and that's mostly fine. The problem with forgeworld used to be the seeming exclusivity and the seemingly 'pay to win' nature of their stuff. Now it's mostly the fact the FW rules writers have no goddam clue what they're doing in 8th edition and are just as likely to make something that technically, as per RAW, self destructs during deployment as they are something super OP..
Ordana wrote: Doesn't work that way.
Custodes models are to expensive with bad (for their cost) shooting that have to walk across the table or deepstrike, in turn 2, stand around for a turn and then maybe charge in turn 3 if your enemy lets you but possibly never as his army simply retreats and feeds you some chaff.
I don't think there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam.
I disagree, but with a significant caveat. They are a very heavy duty army that requires anti-tank and/or mortal wounds to deal with. If you lack the weapons you don’t have much of a hope of actually killing them. What they lack is a distraction to provide some cover fire and soak up your opponent’s heavy weapons for a turn or two while your basic Guardians get into charge range.
In short, there is a realistic price point where you will see Custodes armies be competitive without bike spam, once they get the rules for their 30k vehicles. Those grav tanks and Dreadnoughts aren’t actually very good at all, but in a game yesterday a Telemon and a Caladius entirely occupied the bulk of my opponent’s heavy weapons, and 3 Jetbikes absorbed all of his Mortal Wounds. Between the two the rest of my army had two full turns to advance relatively unmolested and get into stabby range. And if you can get more than half of a Custodes army into combat they’re going to wreck face.
With their 30k vehicles available, a points hike for Jetbikes and a points drop scattered across the rest of the army, you could end up with a very competitive combined arms faction.
A lot of tournaments don't allow FW so I never account for that,
tbf, most NA tournaments allow forgeworld and that's mostly fine. The problem with forgeworld used to be the seeming exclusivity and the seemingly 'pay to win' nature of their stuff. Now it's mostly the fact the FW rules writers have no goddam clue what they're doing in 8th edition and are just as likely to make something that technically, as per RAW, self destructs during deployment as they are something super OP..
You say that jokingly but I'veseen an Ork squig hound wolf down three of my own grot tanks before on a failed morale test.
hate people.
