I've seen a few thread here and there about which Primarches would win in 1-on-1 combat, discussed both from a fluff and gameplay viewpoint. This got me thinking; if all 18 Primarches were dropped on an island, similar to the Hunger Games (or Fortnite I'd imagine, although I've never played it), who would be the final one standing?

If we assume it's a pretty big island, say a few hundred square miles. Each Primarch is dropped equidistant from each other, although they are unaware of each other's location. Each one is armed with his standard loadout/most commonly used wargear, and while there's no supply drops or weapon caches similar to HG, the island has enough food and water to survive.

Edit: Also, we assume this is pre-Heresy, so no Daemon Primarches.

So Dakka, who would your money be on?

Is this pre-heresy or during the Heresy? Most of the Traitor Primarchs during the Heresy cut deals with the greater Chaos Gods for powers. By all accounts, the Emperor should have been able to squish Horus with just a thought, but Horus gained stupid amounts of power from the Chaos Gods for his fight with the Emperor.

If we are talking pre-heresy, like during the Great Crusade, I'd say the top three would be Horus, Sanguinious, or Russ. Or even Angron, as he kinda grew up on a gladiator style planet and fought matches like this all the time. However, the strength of the Primarchs was in their Legions, not raw personal power.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Is this pre-heresy or during the Heresy? Most of the Traitor Primarchs during the Heresy cut deals with the greater Chaos Gods for powers. By all accounts, the Emperor should have been able to squish Horus with just a thought, but Horus gained stupid amounts of power from the Chaos Gods for his fight with the Emperor.

If we are talking pre-heresy, like during the Great Crusade, I'd say the top three would be Horus, Sanguinious, or Russ. Or even Angron, as he kinda grew up on a gladiator style planet and fought matches like this all the time. However, the strength of the Primarchs was in their Legions, not raw personal power.

This is meant to be pre-Heresy, I can't imagine there being much contest if post-Molech Horus was allowed.

I'd say Vulkan, due to him being a Perpetual and also since the Emperor created him as the strongest physical Primarch.

Alpharius because he's one tricky sod.

Maybe RG, because politics were actually important, and actually would be.

Think it's Vulkan because he just keeps on coming back...

 Orodhen wrote:
I'd say Vulkan, due to him being a Perpetual and also since the Emperor created him as the strongest physical Primarch.

How is he the strongest physical Primarch?

pm713 wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
I'd say Vulkan, due to him being a Perpetual and also since the Emperor created him as the strongest physical Primarch.

How is he the strongest physical Primarch?

When creating the Primarchs the Emp decided to make Vulkan the strongest.

Probably Sanguinius. Being able to fly would be a pretty big advantage. Then again, so would the psychic might of Magnus. And The Lion basically grew up hunting things in the jungle.

I'd say Magnus, his magic could make it extremely one-sided. Good luck trying to poke him with a sword after he melts your feet/hands/sensory organs/sword/body

It would also depend on setting, would it be set within a huge cityscape (for example Konrad would be at home here from what I know of his lore) or within multiple biomes in the wild?

Also is teaming up allowed as obviously come primarchs would hold resentment for other primarchs *cough Russ and magnus*

Lemen Russ would do pretty good in a survival enviroment too

If Vulkan wasn't a perpetual I'd say Alpharius, but being incapable of dieing kinda lets you win by default. He could just sit in the center and wait for the others to die of old age - and primarchs take a long damn time to die of old age.

 Orodhen wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
I'd say Vulkan, due to him being a Perpetual and also since the Emperor created him as the strongest physical Primarch.

How is he the strongest physical Primarch?

When creating the Primarchs the Emp decided to make Vulkan the strongest.

Source? Vulkan doesn't seem to be stronger than others based on his role. That would be more Angron or Russ. The more punchy Primarchs.

pm713 wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
I'd say Vulkan, due to him being a Perpetual and also since the Emperor created him as the strongest physical Primarch.

How is he the strongest physical Primarch?

When creating the Primarchs the Emp decided to make Vulkan the strongest.

Source? Vulkan doesn't seem to be stronger than others based on his role. That would be more Angron or Russ. The more punchy Primarchs.

Hope someone can find it, but I do remember reading in the fluff what Orodhen is stating here; namely, Vulkan was the physically strongest of the Primarchs akin to a John Henry type-character...

It's here:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vulkan

"Vulkan is the largest and physically strongest of all the primarchs. He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor, and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands. During sparring matches with his brother Primarchs, Vulkan deliberately held back out of fear of hurting them."

Wiki cites: 4: Vulkan Lives by Nick Kyme; 7: Forge World Video Feed - Genesis of a Primarch: Vulkan; and Scorched Earth (Novella) by Nick Kyme

Vulkan being a Perpetual is a potent advantage, but I think by the rules of the challenge if Vulkan and another Primarch are the two final contestants and Vulkan gets “killed,” then the other Primarch wins even if 5 minutes later Vulkan gets back up again because in that intervening time the other guy is the last one standing. It means that he’ll almost definitely need to be dealt with multiple times and will undoubtably make it into the endgame.

Alpharius is the sneakiest of the primarchs and the next most likely to fake his own death for an edge over his brothers. With his disguise skills and supernatural connection to Omegon (who probably isn’t in the arena as well, and therefore can get him an outside advantage) he has a lot of tricks up his sleeves.

Magnus, Sanguinius, and Curze are the wild cards in this scenario. Magnus is a powerful psyker, which gives him a unique skill set to use as he pleases. Sanguinius can fly and has all sorts of strange abilities beyond the scope of his fellows, which makes him an unknown. And Curze, while not a fan favorite, can see the future and has some level of psychic proficiency, but since he’s basically insane he’s another random variable.

I wouldn't forget Roboute Guilleman. He's likely to be one of the last targets on any given Primarch's hit list. Nobody really cares to see him dead. Nobody particularly fears him.

And so he's liklely to be one of the last few alive, and to be relatively unscathed at that time too.

All the others are rightly feared and/or hated, and thus are very likely to be directly attacked.

It depends. Who's the writer? If it's Matt Ward, then clearly Guilliman.

Since it's pre-Heresy, I can see an argument being made for Horus. He enjoyed the most respect, and would probably not have to fight by himself until the end.

Thank you, Cream Tea.

Now I have a soap opera version of Hunger Games going through my head, with Horus and Bobby G leading opposing teams. Each with their own sk8r nerd and jock and whatnot. Basically cut down the lines of the Heresy.

I think someone needs to write that short story.

Curze foresaw his death at the hands of an assassin sent by Big E. He doesn't die on an island killing his brothers. Curze wins.

Maybe it'd make it fairer to assume Vulkan isn't a Perpeptual for this one, although I'm surprised at how many votes he's got.

The DA in me wants to be loyal and say the Lion. He is extremely combat proficient and incredibly skilled. He has good physic resistance and basic psyker levels (In Angels of Caliban he can see energy lines).

However thinking logically in a Hunger games environment I personally think the terrain would change this massively. If it is open gladiator arena style then I think the winner may come down to Bobby or someone similar. I think he will be the best at preserving and tiring. The Lion would do well maybe down to final 3-4. But I think he would have tired himself out.

But if we're talking proper hunger games, where the arenas are theme'd, forest, desert, city landscape etc. Then depending on the theme this would change things drastically.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Maybe it'd make it fairer to assume Vulkan isn't a Perpeptual for this one, although I'm surprised at how many votes he's got.

Then you'd have to assume that Magnus isn't a psyker and Alpharius is devoid of sneakiness. Being strong, resilient and tough and unkillable is sort of Vulkan's schtick.

Alpharius, cause fury of all there’s two of them, and even if it was just one, everyone is Alpharius, everyone is Omegon. Alpharius may be Horus, or Rogal Dorn... He is everyone, and everyone is Alpharius.

Voted on Magnus (without any kind of psy-leash, he's basically the most powerful of them), but as Vulkan keeps coming back, he'd win by pure attrition...

Only two votes for Corax? Seriously? His entire shtick was unconventional/guerrilla warfare and being a sneaky git.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Only two votes for Corax? Seriously? His entire shtick was unconventional/guerrilla warfare and being a sneaky git.

The sad part about Corax is he's half the sneakiness of Alpharius merged with about half the emo mopiness of Cruz. Dude is doomed.

People know he's sneaky. They know he'll leap out of the shadows. People will gun for him.

His sneakiness is more "you don't see me". Alpharius's sneakiness is more "I'm not really your concern right now". Or so it seems. I think they'd play out differently.

I'm gonna root for 2 underdogs that are actual Hunters. Konrad Kurze and Jagathi Kahn.

Of course Kurzes insanity would be his disadvantage.

Someone kills Alpharius. They forget about him as he's supposed to be dead. Then Omegon steps out of the shadow to win the round.

Banville wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Maybe it'd make it fairer to assume Vulkan isn't a Perpeptual for this one, although I'm surprised at how many votes he's got.

Then you'd have to assume that Magnus isn't a psyker and Alpharius is devoid of sneakiness. Being strong, resilient and tough and unkillable is sort of Vulkan's schtick.

You can be tough and resilient without being Perpetual. Vulkan was around before that dumbass thing was made.

Wasn't Russ designed to be the emperors excecutioner... so my money is on Russ. They were all designed with a particular area of expertise to mind and the Russ was designed to take down naughty Primarchs.

Perturabo would build an unassailable tree house, and kill everyone else with pin point artillery strikes from a trebuchet he fashioned from the tree top. Then he'd complain and brood over not getting enough praise.

Engrenages wrote:
Someone kills Alpharius. They forget about him as he's supposed to be dead. Then Omegon steps out of the shadow to win the round.

Better yet: Alpahrius and Omegeron stand over Leman Russ's corpse. They stare into each other eyes and Alpharius open his hands, full of posionious berries. "Trust me. I know a way we can both win this..."

Meanwhile in the control room, the Emperor raises an eyebrow. "They know they are immune to poison, right?"

Lion El'Johnson began life dropped into the wilderness alone, fighting giant warp beasts. He would definitely have an environmental advantage to some of his other brothers.

But nobody likes Lion. He doesn't know how to make friends. Or at least keep from making enemies.

It may seem I'm just picking on him, but those skills would be seriously critical in this setup.

The Twins own this.

Magnus could literally blow up the entire island and kill or cripple all of his brothers fairly quickly.

The answer to "which Primarch would win X" is always the same: whomever has the strongest psychic powers.

BAN wrote:
Wasn't Russ designed to be the emperors excecutioner... so my money is on Russ. They were all designed with a particular area of expertise to mind and the Russ was designed to take down naughty Primarchs.

Problem is for an executioner Russ has a grand total of zero confirmed Primarch kills and two confirmed losses to other Primarchs in single combat. Even if he was the Emperor's "pull them back in line guy" Russ is cited in two disciplinary deployments and failed both of them - the World Eaters still use the Butcher's Nails and Magnus never made it to Terra to stand trial before the Emperor, not only that the Thousand Sons still use The Warp like a toy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BAN wrote:
Wasn't Russ designed to be the emperors excecutioner... so my money is on Russ. They were all designed with a particular area of expertise to mind and the Russ was designed to take down naughty Primarchs.

Problem is for an executioner Russ has a grand total of zero confirmed Primarch kills and two confirmed losses to other Primarchs in single combat. Even if he was the Emperor's "pull them back in line guy" Russ is cited in two disciplinary deployments and failed both of them - the World Eaters still use the Butcher's Nails and Magnus never made it to Terra to stand trial before the Emperor, not only that the Thousand Sons still use The Warp like a toy.

The World Eater thing wasn't disciplinary in any way seeing as Russ did it himself. The point of that was to show that blindly fighting alone led to defeat which was shown by the fact that although Russ lost his soldiers could have slain Angron so that's a success.
As for Magnus he was beaten and only escaped because of Tzeentch. Another minute and there'd be no Magnus. The Wolves were sent to kill the Thousand Sons not apprehend them and the Thousand Sons no longer exist as a Legion. They were devastated at Prospero and the remnants were broken at the Battle of the Fang.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Problem is for an executioner Russ has a grand total of zero confirmed Primarch kills and two confirmed losses to other Primarchs in single combat.

Man it's so funny because it's true.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BAN wrote:
Wasn't Russ designed to be the emperors excecutioner... so my money is on Russ. They were all designed with a particular area of expertise to mind and the Russ was designed to take down naughty Primarchs.

Problem is for an executioner Russ has a grand total of zero confirmed Primarch kills and two confirmed losses to other Primarchs in single combat. Even if he was the Emperor's "pull them back in line guy" Russ is cited in two disciplinary deployments and failed both of them - the World Eaters still use the Butcher's Nails and Magnus never made it to Terra to stand trial before the Emperor, not only that the Thousand Sons still use The Warp like a toy.

The World Eater thing wasn't disciplinary in any way seeing as Russ did it himself. The point of that was to show that blindly fighting alone led to defeat which was shown by the fact that although Russ lost his soldiers could have slain Angron so that's a success.
As for Magnus he was beaten and only escaped because of Tzeentch. Another minute and there'd be no Magnus. The Wolves were sent to kill the Thousand Sons not apprehend them and the Thousand Sons no longer exist as a Legion. They were devastated at Prospero and the remnants were broken at the Battle of the Fang.

Night of the Wolf - Russ claimed the Emperor sent him, Angron claimed Russ was full of gak. Neither side's claim is actually resolved.

Russ' first order regarding Magnus was to bring him in, the next order en-route to Prospero was to kill him. Russ failed both.

Magnus was beaten by Russ in single combat but both Lion and Angron beat Russ.

For a legion that no longer exists the Thousand Sons did some pretty good damage to Fenris and for a Primarch that "The Executioner" was sent to terminate so did Magnus.

I am not a Space Wolves hater, they're my favourite chapter because they're epic failures - they failed in just about every pivotal moment they've been involved in and they poison themselves so they can get drunk and convince themselves that they're heroes.

So let's change this up somewhat.

Let's say the battle Arena is the clock style Arena from Hunger games Catching fire.

Who would have the upper hand in environment like that.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
So let's change this up somewhat.

Let's say the battle Arena is the clock style Arena from Hunger games Catching fire.

Who would have the upper hand in environment like that.

Sadly, Vulcan again.

"We filled the entire quarter with Lava!"

"What's the tribute doing?"

"Swimming in it I belive"

The fundemental problem is Vulcan. It's like asking which primarch would win a costume contest. You have to remove the one instant winner to have a real debate.

Vulkan is not a problem as immunity to death is not immunity to being moved.

As far as I'm aware Vullan can noy teleport or fly.

So when Magnus telekinetically tosses him into the planet's orbit he'll no longer be a contestant- alive or dead.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
So let's change this up somewhat.

Let's say the battle Arena is the clock style Arena from Hunger games Catching fire.

Who would have the upper hand in environment like that.

Mortarion would wander in that poisoned gas and feel like home.

Yup if everything is in such as Magnus powers and Vulcan perpetual I reassert that Curze will win since his vision of how he dies remains true. He won't die any other way. No idea how he pulls it off but he'll pull it off nonetheless (unless E-money interrupts the contest and sends in an assassin to take out Curze). As much as Sanguinious is a top contender he will still die by Horus.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Vulkan is not a problem as immunity to death is not immunity to being moved.

As far as I'm aware Vullan can noy teleport or fly.

So when Magnus telekinetically tosses him into the planet's orbit he'll no longer be a contestant- alive or dead.

If I remember correctly when Vulcan dies he can randomly re-appear in random places. Because didn't he die on Istavaan but then magically reappear in orbit around Ultramar before plummeting down and making a crater on Ultramar? Also Magnus will need to throw him *out* or orbit otherwise he'll come crashing back down eventually.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BAN wrote:
Wasn't Russ designed to be the emperors excecutioner... so my money is on Russ. They were all designed with a particular area of expertise to mind and the Russ was designed to take down naughty Primarchs.

Problem is for an executioner Russ has a grand total of zero confirmed Primarch kills and two confirmed losses to other Primarchs in single combat. Even if he was the Emperor's "pull them back in line guy" Russ is cited in two disciplinary deployments and failed both of them - the World Eaters still use the Butcher's Nails and Magnus never made it to Terra to stand trial before the Emperor, not only that the Thousand Sons still use The Warp like a toy.

The World Eater thing wasn't disciplinary in any way seeing as Russ did it himself. The point of that was to show that blindly fighting alone led to defeat which was shown by the fact that although Russ lost his soldiers could have slain Angron so that's a success.
As for Magnus he was beaten and only escaped because of Tzeentch. Another minute and there'd be no Magnus. The Wolves were sent to kill the Thousand Sons not apprehend them and the Thousand Sons no longer exist as a Legion. They were devastated at Prospero and the remnants were broken at the Battle of the Fang.

Night of the Wolf - Russ claimed the Emperor sent him, Angron claimed Russ was full of gak. Neither side's claim is actually resolved.

Russ' first order regarding Magnus was to bring him in, the next order en-route to Prospero was to kill him. Russ failed both.

Magnus was beaten by Russ in single combat but both Lion and Angron beat Russ.

For a legion that no longer exists the Thousand Sons did some pretty good damage to Fenris and for a Primarch that "The Executioner" was sent to terminate so did Magnus.

I am not a Space Wolves hater, they're my favourite chapter because they're epic failures - they failed in just about every pivotal moment they've been involved in and they poison themselves so they can get drunk and convince themselves that they're heroes.

That is not at all what they do.

It was hardly the Thousand Sons doing damage to Fenris. It was the Changeling, hordes of Tzeentch worshippers and daemons, Nurgle armies, the Alpha Legion, the Imperial fleet of multiple Chapters and the Thousand Sons.

Losing once isn't also a guarantee that you'll lose every time. Sanguinius got his ass handed to him by Ka'Bandha but beat him later on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Vulkan is not a problem as immunity to death is not immunity to being moved.

As far as I'm aware Vullan can noy teleport or fly.

So when Magnus telekinetically tosses him into the planet's orbit he'll no longer be a contestant- alive or dead.

If I remember correctly when Vulcan dies he can randomly re-appear in random places. Because didn't he die on Istavaan but then magically reappear in orbit around Ultramar before plummeting down and making a crater on Ultramar? Also Magnus will need to throw him *out* or orbit otherwise he'll come crashing back down eventually.

His hammer had a teleporter and after Istvaan he was captured and tortured by Curze until he teleported out to Ultramar. I think.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Vulkan is not a problem as immunity to death is not immunity to being moved.

As far as I'm aware Vullan can noy teleport or fly.

So when Magnus telekinetically tosses him into the planet's orbit he'll no longer be a contestant- alive or dead.

If I remember correctly when Vulcan dies he can randomly re-appear in random places. Because didn't he die on Istavaan but then magically reappear in orbit around Ultramar before plummeting down and making a crater on Ultramar? Also Magnus will need to throw him *out* or orbit otherwise he'll come crashing back down eventually.

Alpharius stares into Omegeron's eyes and then glances at the posioned berries again. There has to be a winner right? The emperor will have to concede.

He raises the berries to his lips, trembling with adreline and fear

WAIT

A shadow looms over the twins and for a brief moment, they believe the gambit is won.

Then Vulkan smashes into both of them at orbit entry speeds, creating a mile wide crater. The cameras slowly pan in on the burning debris and gore. From the center of the crater stands Vulkan, gyrating his crotch.


....If these keeps up I'm going to have to write the fan fiction this is becoming

Oh this is so entertaining, like Wolfman vs. Frankenstein exciting.

I remember when they brought back Bobby G and everyone went nuts and couldn't wait until the next Primarch was released, especially the Loyalist ones.

Then Space Marines became not as good and Custodes became super super sphace mareens and then interest is a lot less it seems.

I haven't heard of this "Horus Heresy", but I think it has to be Ferrus, because his flesh is so strong and he's unkillable... right guys! ...guys?

But yea, I think Magnus being a wizard, Vulkan being unkillable, and Curze being fated are the most interesting aspects of this fight. All the other primarchs have skills, but those three could win without fighting anyone else.

It'd be interesting to imagine HOW each primarch would approach this - and I love JamesY's idea of Perturabo's IRON CAGE V2: WOOD EDITION

I am going with Curze. A close second is Corvus Corax.

These two are the stealthiest Primarchs- Corax from the Emperor's gift, and Curze from a mix of psychic powers, his innate ability to see the future, and his time on Nostramo.

Even with their healing abilities, Primarchs get hurt, and fighting other Primarchs, there will be some damned nasty wounds. The ability to postpone fighting until the very end, and entering their fights undamaged against other Primarchs, is the big key to surviving. Having a conversation about who is the toughest or strongest is pretty meaningless. Corvus and Konrad don't need to be able to beat Sanguinius. They just need to be able to beat Sanguinius when he's already nearly dead from killing Horus.


Between the two, Konrad beats Corax. The rest of the gang doesn't matter, since they'll bleed each other out and get picked off in turn when they're weak.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I am going with Curze. A close second is Corvus Corax.

These two are the stealthiest Primarchs- Corax from the Emperor's gift, and Curze from a mix of psychic powers, his innate ability to see the future, and his time on Nostramo.

Even with their healing abilities, Primarchs get hurt, and fighting other Primarchs, there will be some damned nasty wounds. The ability to postpone fighting until the very end, and entering their fights undamaged against other Primarchs, is the big key to surviving. Having a conversation about who is the toughest or strongest is pretty meaningless. Corvus and Konrad don't need to be able to beat Sanguinius. They just need to be able to beat Sanguinius when he's already nearly dead from killing Horus.


Between the two, Konrad beats Corax. The rest of the gang doesn't matter, since they'll bleed each other out and get picked off in turn when they're weak.

Then Vulkan just gets back up and kill Konrad.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I am going with Curze. A close second is Corvus Corax.

These two are the stealthiest Primarchs- Corax from the Emperor's gift, and Curze from a mix of psychic powers, his innate ability to see the future, and his time on Nostramo.

Even with their healing abilities, Primarchs get hurt, and fighting other Primarchs, there will be some damned nasty wounds. The ability to postpone fighting until the very end, and entering their fights undamaged against other Primarchs, is the big key to surviving. Having a conversation about who is the toughest or strongest is pretty meaningless. Corvus and Konrad don't need to be able to beat Sanguinius. They just need to be able to beat Sanguinius when he's already nearly dead from killing Horus.


Between the two, Konrad beats Corax. The rest of the gang doesn't matter, since they'll bleed each other out and get picked off in turn when they're weak.

Then Vulkan just gets back up and kill Konrad.

But Konrad would still have technically won as he was the last one alive for a bit. The whole Vulkan resurrects thing makes this kind of topic so boring.

pm713 wrote:
But Konrad would still have technically won as he was the last one alive for a bit. The whole Vulkan resurrects thing makes this kind of topic so boring.

Oh that's interesting, good point! The "winner" would be selected before Vulkan rises again, because I'm not sure how long it is implied it takes him before he rises again in Vulkan Lives.

Bharring wrote:
People know he's sneaky. They know he'll leap out of the shadows. People will gun for him.

His sneakiness is more "you don't see me". Alpharius's sneakiness is more "I'm not really your concern right now". Or so it seems. I think they'd play out differently.

TIL Corax is one and the same as John Cena.

Just for emphasis

IT IS CURRENTLY UNKNOWN IF VULKAN IS STILL A PERPETUAL.

He doesnt even know himself, after being stabbed with the fulgarite spear and then reborn in mount deathfire his ability may or may not be gone, since he would have to die to find out, we cannot know.

so any "deathmatch" must be based on the assumption that he is no longer a perpetual, since there is no evidence that he is currently.

Vulkan's perpetual status has been resolved.

Besides. OP states that this hypothetical scenario occurs pre-Heresy.

Vulkan wins because the dude literally cannot die.

Or well, I guess technically he can die, but he just gets back up again.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Vulkan wins because the dude literally cannot die.

Or well, I guess technically he can die, but he just gets back up again.

I think a single death would be an elimination in this event.

Others have mentioned it, but I'd put Johnson towards the top.

His background of surviving as a child, with just his bare hands, on a death world, kind of prepares him for this better then anyone else. Let us also no forget he out-stalked pyschic evil batman as well. Doubtful any other Primarch could have been capable of that.

Really? I thought he gave in and just bombarded the general area...and missed.

I'm guessing that once dead, a contestant is 'out,' so the debate could continue on the basis that if killed, Vulkan is out, and would be immediately disqualified on respawning. He'd have to just make his way to the edge of the dome and leave in Truman Burbank style.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BAN wrote:
Wasn't Russ designed to be the emperors excecutioner... so my money is on Russ. They were all designed with a particular area of expertise to mind and the Russ was designed to take down naughty Primarchs.

Problem is for an executioner Russ has a grand total of zero confirmed Primarch kills and two confirmed losses to other Primarchs in single combat. Even if he was the Emperor's "pull them back in line guy" Russ is cited in two disciplinary deployments and failed both of them - the World Eaters still use the Butcher's Nails and Magnus never made it to Terra to stand trial before the Emperor, not only that the Thousand Sons still use The Warp like a toy.

The World Eater thing wasn't disciplinary in any way seeing as Russ did it himself. The point of that was to show that blindly fighting alone led to defeat which was shown by the fact that although Russ lost his soldiers could have slain Angron so that's a success.
As for Magnus he was beaten and only escaped because of Tzeentch. Another minute and there'd be no Magnus. The Wolves were sent to kill the Thousand Sons not apprehend them and the Thousand Sons no longer exist as a Legion. They were devastated at Prospero and the remnants were broken at the Battle of the Fang.

Night of the Wolf - Russ claimed the Emperor sent him, Angron claimed Russ was full of gak. Neither side's claim is actually resolved.

Russ' first order regarding Magnus was to bring him in, the next order en-route to Prospero was to kill him. Russ failed both.

Magnus was beaten by Russ in single combat but both Lion and Angron beat Russ.

For a legion that no longer exists the Thousand Sons did some pretty good damage to Fenris and for a Primarch that "The Executioner" was sent to terminate so did Magnus.

I am not a Space Wolves hater, they're my favourite chapter because they're epic failures - they failed in just about every pivotal moment they've been involved in and they poison themselves so they can get drunk and convince themselves that they're heroes.

That is not at all what they do.

It was hardly the Thousand Sons doing damage to Fenris. It was the Changeling, hordes of Tzeentch worshippers and daemons, Nurgle armies, the Alpha Legion, the Imperial fleet of multiple Chapters and the Thousand Sons.

Losing once isn't also a guarantee that you'll lose every time. Sanguinius got his ass handed to him by Ka'Bandha but beat him later on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Vulkan is not a problem as immunity to death is not immunity to being moved.

As far as I'm aware Vullan can noy teleport or fly.

So when Magnus telekinetically tosses him into the planet's orbit he'll no longer be a contestant- alive or dead.

If I remember correctly when Vulcan dies he can randomly re-appear in random places. Because didn't he die on Istavaan but then magically reappear in orbit around Ultramar before plummeting down and making a crater on Ultramar? Also Magnus will need to throw him *out* or orbit otherwise he'll come crashing back down eventually.

His hammer had a teleporter and after Istvaan he was captured and tortured by Curze until he teleported out to Ultramar. I think.

Let's look at their history.
Russ failed to beat the Emperor in their fight and was forced to serve commanding the Rout.
Who failed as the Emperor's scary marines or rather were beaten at a job the Emperor created them for by marines with Butcher's Nails severing their humanity.
Failed to prevent use of Butcher's Nails and allowed Angron to be turned to Chaos.
Failed to save or kill Magnus allowing him to be turned to Chaos.
Failed to arrive on Terra before the big E died.
Failed to detach Canis Helix from their gene-seed.
They claim that every Great Hunt has been pivotal but every one has failed at its ultimate goal which is finding Russ.
Failed to recover Wulfen quietly.
Want a guess at who was in charge of the failed attempt at defending Cadia?

The pokemon formerly known as Creed.

Magnus could literally push the entire island into the ocean or destroy it with psyflame.

Magnus is, per multiple sources, the most powerful Primarch and the most similar to the Emperor in power. Lorgar refers to him as such many times, both before and after his fall. An astropath who made brief psychic connection with Magnus (and died) noted that he was just like the Emperor.

When a mass-conveyer fell from low orbit and was going to destroy the city it was over it was Magnus who channeled the natural energies of the planet to slow its descent and allow it to gently land, while Perturabo could only stare helplessly.

Per Leman Russ, in his fight with Magnus he was struck with psychic assaults which would have killed his brothers, and only survived due to his unique innate psychic resistance. And despite that, pretty much every modern source from A Thousand Sons to the HH Forgeworld books portray Leman Russ as requiring aid in fighting his brother (who was engaging the entire Space Wolves Legion and channeling possibly the most powerful sorcerous spell of the Heresy) and being largely on the losing side of the fight until "flailing wildly" and landing a "lucky" (Tzeentch) blow on Magnus' eye.

See, the thing about the Primarchs is that, although they all have their own talents, physically they are similar in the way humans are. Ferrus Manus is a hulking bruiser among Primarchs, but when fighting Fulgrim he can't just completely overpower him. Similarly, Fulgrim is among the quickest Primarchs, but not to the point he can easily blitz Ferrus Manus.

What sets the Primarchs apart from one another in combat is their unique psychic talents. And in this regard, Magnus eclipses the rest of his brothers combined. The only Primarch who can be considered to even be playing the same game as Magnus is Lorgar, yet as we see in Aurelian Magnus can psychically dominate him from across the galaxy while maintaining a psychic projection.

It's a boring answer, but it's the right one. Alpharius is sneaky? Lion El'Jonson has experience surviving harsh wilderness? All irrelevant compared to the one among them that can attack every other Primarch on the island from any point of the island, simultaneously, and likely will kill most of his brothers in the first attack.

The only ones who might survive would be Lorgar, who might be able to withstand the brunt of the attack with a kine shield, Sanguinius, largely due to his airborne mobility, Leman Russ, due to his psychic resistance, and Vulkan, due to being a Perpetual. Lorgar is no threat, being the diet Coke version of Magnus. Sanguinius could potentially kill Magnus if he could close the distance and use his superior martial skill to run him through, but Sanguinius wouldn't know where his brother was while Magnus would know exactly where he was. Leman Russ would have an even harder time of this, due to being restricted to running. This leaves Vulkan, the one who can't die. This doesn't imply that Magnus couldn't bury him alive in an ocean trench.

Magnus would win, and I honestly can't take many arguments otherwise seriously. That Alpharius is a frontrunner is particularly laughable. Alpharius' talents lie in infiltrating the enemy lines, sabotaging them, and in employing misdirection to ensnare his enemies. All of which are useless talents in this thread's scenario.

All the primarchs undoubtedly have a measure of protection from psychic attack, naturally and enhanced by their armour. Otherwise powerful psykers would use them as puppets. So whilst Magnus is powerful, he isn't a guaranteed winner. If he were, Siege of Terra would have played out very differently. He couldn't just displace the palace, or kill any other primarchs then. And in the scene where he stops the craft from falling, the excursion nearly overcomes him. So after killing one or two of his brothers in the death match, he might be too tired to defend himself.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BAN wrote:
Wasn't Russ designed to be the emperors excecutioner... so my money is on Russ. They were all designed with a particular area of expertise to mind and the Russ was designed to take down naughty Primarchs.

Problem is for an executioner Russ has a grand total of zero confirmed Primarch kills and two confirmed losses to other Primarchs in single combat. Even if he was the Emperor's "pull them back in line guy" Russ is cited in two disciplinary deployments and failed both of them - the World Eaters still use the Butcher's Nails and Magnus never made it to Terra to stand trial before the Emperor, not only that the Thousand Sons still use The Warp like a toy.

The World Eater thing wasn't disciplinary in any way seeing as Russ did it himself. The point of that was to show that blindly fighting alone led to defeat which was shown by the fact that although Russ lost his soldiers could have slain Angron so that's a success.
As for Magnus he was beaten and only escaped because of Tzeentch. Another minute and there'd be no Magnus. The Wolves were sent to kill the Thousand Sons not apprehend them and the Thousand Sons no longer exist as a Legion. They were devastated at Prospero and the remnants were broken at the Battle of the Fang.

Night of the Wolf - Russ claimed the Emperor sent him, Angron claimed Russ was full of gak. Neither side's claim is actually resolved.

Russ' first order regarding Magnus was to bring him in, the next order en-route to Prospero was to kill him. Russ failed both.

Magnus was beaten by Russ in single combat but both Lion and Angron beat Russ.

For a legion that no longer exists the Thousand Sons did some pretty good damage to Fenris and for a Primarch that "The Executioner" was sent to terminate so did Magnus.

I am not a Space Wolves hater, they're my favourite chapter because they're epic failures - they failed in just about every pivotal moment they've been involved in and they poison themselves so they can get drunk and convince themselves that they're heroes.

That is not at all what they do.

It was hardly the Thousand Sons doing damage to Fenris. It was the Changeling, hordes of Tzeentch worshippers and daemons, Nurgle armies, the Alpha Legion, the Imperial fleet of multiple Chapters and the Thousand Sons.

Losing once isn't also a guarantee that you'll lose every time. Sanguinius got his ass handed to him by Ka'Bandha but beat him later on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Vulkan is not a problem as immunity to death is not immunity to being moved.

As far as I'm aware Vullan can noy teleport or fly.

So when Magnus telekinetically tosses him into the planet's orbit he'll no longer be a contestant- alive or dead.

If I remember correctly when Vulcan dies he can randomly re-appear in random places. Because didn't he die on Istavaan but then magically reappear in orbit around Ultramar before plummeting down and making a crater on Ultramar? Also Magnus will need to throw him *out* or orbit otherwise he'll come crashing back down eventually.

His hammer had a teleporter and after Istvaan he was captured and tortured by Curze until he teleported out to Ultramar. I think.

Let's look at their history.
Russ failed to beat the Emperor in their fight and was forced to serve commanding the Rout.
Who failed as the Emperor's scary marines or rather were beaten at a job the Emperor created them for by marines with Butcher's Nails severing their humanity.
Failed to prevent use of Butcher's Nails and allowed Angron to be turned to Chaos.
Failed to save or kill Magnus allowing him to be turned to Chaos.
Failed to arrive on Terra before the big E died.
Failed to detach Canis Helix from their gene-seed.
They claim that every Great Hunt has been pivotal but every one has failed at its ultimate goal which is finding Russ.
Failed to recover Wulfen quietly.
Want a guess at who was in charge of the failed attempt at defending Cadia?

Someone with iron weapons lost to a guy with power weapons and power armour. No surprise there.
They very much succeeded at being "scary marines" and there's no way the World Eaters beat them at it considering they're traitors.
It's not Russ's job to keep Angron out of Chaos. The responsibility for that is solely on the Emperor.
But did cripple the Thousand Sons and I'm pretty sure a god teleporting him away counts as extenuating circumstances.
That's false. He got to Terra and then left to delay the Traitor forces which he did well considering he nearly killed Horus and removed a lot of his madness with the Spear of Russ.
They didn't want to. About two or three Wolves tried it.
Every Great Hunt also cleanses a lot of xenos and other threats when they happen. They don't find someone whose not meant to be returning yet which is hardly a failure.
They did defeat multiple Chaos invasions of the Imperium while recovering them.
Losing to a full on Black Crusade while destroying Blackstone Fortresses is not a hugely bad thing.

Every Primarch and their Legion failed sometimes. You can't just cherry pick the failings and claim they're bad. Or I can just say Magnus is the worst of all Primarchs.

 JamesY wrote:
All the primarchs undoubtedly have a measure of protection from psychic attack, naturally and enhanced by their armour. Otherwise powerful psykers would use them as puppets.

Lorgar telekinetically rag-dolled Fulgrim in Aurelion when he was angry and Horus had to watch helplessly, literally begging Magnus to intervene. Lorgar is a fraction of Magnus' power.

You're welcome to provide feats on a case by case basis of Primarchs resisting psychic attacks on the scale of what Magnus has been shown to dish out, to support your argument.

My bet's on vulkan unless magnus figures out how to undo the perpetual ability with warp gak, vulkan will wear everyone else down through attrition or just beat them into the ground considering physically strongest, and I think one of the largest, magnus might be bigger but I'm not sure

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
All the primarchs undoubtedly have a measure of protection from psychic attack, naturally and enhanced by their armour. Otherwise powerful psykers would use them as puppets.

Lorgar telekinetically rag-dolled Fulgrim in Aurelion when he was angry and Horus had to watch helplessly, literally begging Magnus to intervene. Lorgar is a fraction of Magnus' power.

You're welcome to provide feats on a case by case basis of Primarchs resisting psychic attacks on the scale of what Magnus has been shown to dish out, to support your argument.

Want to read my post again? And not edit out important details of my comments? Yes he is powerful, but he isn't powerful enough to deal with 17 (or 19, depending on how far back you go) primarchs single handedly. After 5-6 such feats, he's going to tire, at which point Corax steps out of a shadow, or Angron comes charging out of a bush. But there are examples of primarchs surviving powerful psychic attacks;
Guilliman in Know No Fear when Kor Phaeron repeatedly blasts him
Perturabo having his essence stolen in Angel Exterminatus
Angron's mind killing the psykers who try to communicate with him in Betrayer
Sanguinius resisting warpfire (I want to say in Ruinstorm? Might be wrong there)
That's off the top of my head.

They were all made with the help of warp sorcery, so they are all going to have a base level of resistance. Again, I'm not saying Magnus wouldn't wreck some carnage, nor that he isn't a strong contender for the win. Just that he isn't a guarantee based on his abilities. The only primarchs so far that have canonically killed another primarch are Fulgrim and Dorn, so that should count for something.

I don't think there is any sure fire winner. They all have things going for them. Vulkan, not taking into consideration the perpetual thing, and Mortarion have the survivability. Corax, Curze and Alpharius/Omegon have the sneakyness. Curze and Sanguinius have the precognition (the Heresy series has made this more of a boon than it was originally), Angron is possibly the deadliest single combatant etc etc. They all have their abilities and were all created to be the best military minds. Just because they had individual traits that stand out doesn't mean that they don't have others to take into consideration. I think it's in the afterword of the Silent War that mentions this. That where some Legions, true it's in reference to the Legions, have a preference for subterfuge all employed it in one way or the other. I would imagine that this would be applicable to the Primarchs.

Also, who has grudges against the other Primarchs and friendships. Who's personalities have the biggest flaws. Who can exploit these the best. Would temporary allegiances be formed or would it just be a straight up free for all. All the Priamrchs know how potent a Psyker Magnus is would they allow him to pop off his hex beams.

I can't say for sure who would win. I picked Mortarion on the grounds of his fight with the Khan. But then I am not entirely convinced that Mortarion would win.

Okay so let's change the setting again. People are arguing about how Magnus would just nuke the field etc and Vulkan can just get back up.

Put them all on a space hulk in random locations on the space hulk. One survives. Who do you wreckon it would come down to then?

Still Curze because he is fated to die by an assassin sent by the Emporer not by any of his brothers. Sanguinious is fated too but it's to die by Horus which this scenario fulfills. Doesn't matter if Vulcan keeps resurrecting, Curze killed him many times over and would do it again if it was the last two leaving Curze alone as the winner while Vulcan reassembled. Again, not sure how he pulls it off with the stronger Promarchs but it's not necessary for Curze to kill every single one of them he can wait for others to kill each other.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Still Curze because he is fated to die by an assassin sent by the Emporer not by any of his brothers. Sanguinious is fated too but it's to die by Horus which this scenario fulfills. Doesn't matter if Vulcan keeps resurrecting, Curze killed him many times over and would do it again if it was the last two leaving Curze alone as the winner while Vulcan reassembled. Again, not sure how he pulls it off with the stronger Promarchs but it's not necessary for Curze to kill every single one of them he can wait for others to kill each other.

Curze and Sanguinius are fated to die in the "canon" timeline with the causality and influence of fate that takes place inside it. Nothing tells us that if we insert that battle royal event, fate/causality wouldn't be different or even the Chaos Gods wouldn't intervene to change destiny so that their plans come to fruition. Lorgar and Erebus insist several time in the novels that there is a multitude of fates and paths possible and they try to influence them so they reach the one they prefer.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Still Curze because he is fated to die by an assassin sent by the Emporer not by any of his brothers. Sanguinious is fated too but it's to die by Horus which this scenario fulfills. Doesn't matter if Vulcan keeps resurrecting, Curze killed him many times over and would do it again if it was the last two leaving Curze alone as the winner while Vulcan reassembled. Again, not sure how he pulls it off with the stronger Promarchs but it's not necessary for Curze to kill every single one of them he can wait for others to kill each other.

Angron is fated to become the Khorne's son. At least one of their destinies would have to be altered.

Sanguinius; he could fly and stay in the sky until there was only one other primarch left. He could then swoop down pick him up, brake his back and drop him, like whatvhe did to ka"bandha.

You wouldn't have to kill vulkan necessarily, you could probably get away with Black Knighting him*. As a bonus you could then carry him around for comic effect until only the two of you remain.


*

The canon timeline has always been mutable with a long string of retcons and shoe ins yet their fate has never changed yet. I remain unconvinced that this hypothetical scenario is any different nor any less creative then Geedub's authors for that matter.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
The canon timeline has always been mutable with a long string of retcons and shoe ins yet their fate has never changed yet. I remain unconvinced that this hypothetical scenario is any different nor any less creative then Geedub's authors for that matter.

But the thing is, every Primarch has his own fate. They just don't all have the precog to see it.

Magnus is the easy choice if you assume he can just "do anything at any time," without consequence. Assuming he has the ability to just snap his fingers and both locate & instantly destroy all the other primarchs is ridiculous. If he had these powers, he would have done so at any point post-heresy. When he showed up and faced off against Guilliman, he was winning, but Guilliman was also out of ammo and had been fighting like crazy for some time. There is simply not enough evidence to suggest Magnus has the powers you say he does. It's highly likely that if he were encountered by someone like Angron or Russ early on, he would lose.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Really? I thought he gave in and just bombarded the general area...and missed.

On his ship, when Curze escaped his bonds. Not on Macragge.

 Marmatag wrote:
Magnus is the easy choice if you assume he can just "do anything at any time," without consequence. Assuming he has the ability to just snap his fingers and both locate & instantly destroy all the other primarchs is ridiculous. If he had these powers, he would have done so at any point post-heresy. When he showed up and faced off against Guilliman, he was winning, but Guilliman was also out of ammo and had been fighting like crazy for some time. There is simply not enough evidence to suggest Magnus has the powers you say he does. It's highly likely that if he were encountered by someone like Angron or Russ early on, he would lose.

It's not an assumption. Magnus has been canonically stated in multiple sources to be almost as powerful, or as powerful psychically as the emperor himself. Considering that the emperor erased Horus from fething EXISTENCE with a mere thought (the pumped up chaos version of Horus no less, AND did it while mortally wounded) it is not a stretch to say that Magnus could do something similar. I recall in one of the Thousand Sons novels, when Magnus was squaring off against Russ on Prospero he wasn't trying to kill him, he was just trying to hold him back so that he could complete his spell.

So, canonically... Magnus fought Russ to a stalemate WHILE channeling one of the most powerful spells a (roughly) human psyker has ever cast in the history of the galaxy, and STILL had to take special care not to accidentally kill him. Yeah... I think Magnus would win this one out of sheer OPness.

@w1zard so how come he didn't manage to kill a single primarch at Terra, or crack open the palace?

Don't forget, horus had just fought sanguinius, and the Emperor before being erased, and the gods all withdrew their protection when he had his moment of clarity. And it was only his soul that was destroyed, his body was left behind, so it wasn't as impressive a feat as you are suggesting.

 JamesY wrote:
@w1zard so how come he didn't manage to kill a single primarch at Terra, or crack open the palace?

I'm not saying that Magnus was powerful enough to snap his fingers and win the entire siege of Terra all at once from a distance. Not even the Emperor could have done that. What I am saying is that Magnus is the single most powerful primarch out of all of them due to the extreme nature of his psychic abilities. The only person who would be able to best him in a 1v1 duel would be the emperor himself, and even then it would not be a totally sure thing.

I will admit I haven't read much lore surrounding the siege of Terra, so I don't really know what happens there or who he fights. But weren't the sisters of silence present at the battle? That could go a long way toward explaining why his powers might be not as potent as they usually were. I know they made quite a difference on Prospero. There is also the possibility that the Emperor was psychically blocking the brunt of Magnus' powers from inside the palace/orbit, as even with my limited knowledge I know that the Emperor still wanted a "peaceful" resolution to the Horus Heresy at that point and was unwilling to kill any of his sons unless he absolutely had to. I do know for a fact that the imperial palace on Terra was almost certainly warded against psychic powers for the exact reason that the Emperor was a very intelligent man, and he wouldn't leave his defenses with such a gaping vulnerability. Even an entity as powerful as Magnus would likely have not been able to circumvent these defenses.

 JamesY wrote:

Don't forget, horus had just fought sanguinius, and the Emperor before being erased, and the gods all withdrew their protection when he had his moment of clarity. And it was only his soul that was destroyed, his body was left behind, so it wasn't as impressive a feat as you are suggesting.

I thought pumped up chaos Horus smashed on poor Sanguinius pretty quickly. As I said my lore knowledge about this area isn't that great, but from what I can recall it was a pretty one sided fight. Horus also didn't 'fight' the emperor so much as the emperor let Horus beat the crap out of him while he pleaded for Horus' humanity. At that point the emperor still believed Horus' soul could be saved. When the emperor finally saw Horus was too far gone he ended it pretty darn fast. The only reason why the emperor was mortally wounded in the fight with Horus was because he was unwilling to slay his favorite son outright without giving him a second chance.

Okay So I am getting a bit bored of this whole pysker shenanigans arguement.

How about, battle royal, on a space hulk, each Primarch starts at a random point and the space hulk is currently in the Warp where psyker effects are nullified/nerfed.

Also primarchs fates don't count. If a Primarch dies they got thrown back into correct timeline and carry on if nothing ever happened. Same goes for Vulkan on his first death too.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Okay So I am getting a bit bored of this whole pysker shenanigans arguement.

How about, battle royal, on a space hulk, each Primarch starts at a random point and the space hulk is currently in the Warp where psyker effects are nullified/nerfed.

Also primarchs fates don't count. If a Primarch dies they got thrown back into correct timeline and carry on if nothing ever happened. Same goes for Vulkan on his first death too.

That really isn't fair. You wouldn't say Angron couldn't use his weapons, or Kurze his precognition, or Corax his stealth skills. If you are going to take away skills that literally define the combat styles of the primarchs in question you are going to get a skewed result.

If you want just a melee battle to the death on a space hulk using only close combat weapons, the winner would most likely be Angron or the Lion. Although, you could make a convincing argument for Corax/Kurze as well.

w1zard wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Okay So I am getting a bit bored of this whole pysker shenanigans arguement.

How about, battle royal, on a space hulk, each Primarch starts at a random point and the space hulk is currently in the Warp where psyker effects are nullified/nerfed.

Also primarchs fates don't count. If a Primarch dies they got thrown back into correct timeline and carry on if nothing ever happened. Same goes for Vulkan on his first death too.

That really isn't fair. You wouldn't say Angron couldn't use his weapons, or Kurze his precognition, or Corax his stealth skills. If you are going to take away skills that literally define the combat styles of the primarchs in question you are going to get a skewed result.

If you want just a melee battle to the death on a space hulk using only close combat weapons, the winner would most likely be Angron or the Lion. Although, you could make a convincing argument for Corax/Kurze as well.

It is fair becuase it's a different scenario. People have answered open gladiator style, in an arena style, now different setting.

When you fight on the table top you don;t always use the same terrain do you. A fight can happen any time any place. If you like share tow opinions. Same scenario only difference is one fights takes place inside the Warp another outside.

But the Curze and Vulkan things stick where, one a Primarch dies they transport back to "canon" timeline right where they left off. It's get rid of the Curze and Vulkan shenanigans.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Okay So I am getting a bit bored of this whole pysker shenanigans arguement.

How about, battle royal, on a space hulk, each Primarch starts at a random point and the space hulk is currently in the Warp where psyker effects are nullified/nerfed.

Also primarchs fates don't count. If a Primarch dies they got thrown back into correct timeline and carry on if nothing ever happened. Same goes for Vulkan on his first death too.

That really isn't fair. You wouldn't say Angron couldn't use his weapons, or Kurze his precognition, or Corax his stealth skills. If you are going to take away skills that literally define the combat styles of the primarchs in question you are going to get a skewed result.

If you want just a melee battle to the death on a space hulk using only close combat weapons, the winner would most likely be Angron or the Lion. Although, you could make a convincing argument for Corax/Kurze as well.

It is fair becuase it's a different scenario. People have answered open gladiator style, in an arena style, now different setting.

When you fight on the table top you don;t always use the same terrain do you. A fight can happen any time any place. If you like share tow opinions. Same scenario only difference is one fights takes place inside the Warp another outside.

But the Curze and Vulkan things stick where, one a Primarch dies they transport back to "canon" timeline right where they left off. It's get rid of the Curze and Vulkan shenanigans.

Ok then, if Psychic powers are out, then Magnus and Lorgar automatically lose by default. If Vulkan isn't allowed to regenerate then he loses by default as well. If Kurze isn't allowed to use his precognition then he loses by default because at that point he is just a gimped version of Corax.

Under the scenario you described, I'd say either Angron or the Lion would win, with Corax/Alpharius coming behind as a close third considering stealth is important when fighting on a space hulk.

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Magnus is the easy choice if you assume he can just "do anything at any time," without consequence. Assuming he has the ability to just snap his fingers and both locate & instantly destroy all the other primarchs is ridiculous. If he had these powers, he would have done so at any point post-heresy. When he showed up and faced off against Guilliman, he was winning, but Guilliman was also out of ammo and had been fighting like crazy for some time. There is simply not enough evidence to suggest Magnus has the powers you say he does. It's highly likely that if he were encountered by someone like Angron or Russ early on, he would lose.

It's not an assumption. Magnus has been canonically stated in multiple sources to be almost as powerful, or as powerful psychically as the emperor himself. Considering that the emperor erased Horus from fething EXISTENCE with a mere thought (the pumped up chaos version of Horus no less, AND did it while mortally wounded) it is not a stretch to say that Magnus could do something similar. I recall in one of the Thousand Sons novels, when Magnus was squaring off against Russ on Prospero he wasn't trying to kill him, he was just trying to hold him back so that he could complete his spell.

So, canonically... Magnus fought Russ to a stalemate WHILE channeling one of the most powerful spells a (roughly) human psyker has ever cast in the history of the galaxy, and STILL had to take special care not to accidentally kill him. Yeah... I think Magnus would win this one out of sheer OPness.

Magnus almost died to a broken Eldar Titan. He's not all that. Being seconds from death and living only because of literal divine intervention is not a stalemate.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Magnus is the easy choice if you assume he can just "do anything at any time," without consequence. Assuming he has the ability to just snap his fingers and both locate & instantly destroy all the other primarchs is ridiculous. If he had these powers, he would have done so at any point post-heresy. When he showed up and faced off against Guilliman, he was winning, but Guilliman was also out of ammo and had been fighting like crazy for some time. There is simply not enough evidence to suggest Magnus has the powers you say he does. It's highly likely that if he were encountered by someone like Angron or Russ early on, he would lose.

It's not an assumption. Magnus has been canonically stated in multiple sources to be almost as powerful, or as powerful psychically as the emperor himself. Considering that the emperor erased Horus from fething EXISTENCE with a mere thought (the pumped up chaos version of Horus no less, AND did it while mortally wounded) it is not a stretch to say that Magnus could do something similar. I recall in one of the Thousand Sons novels, when Magnus was squaring off against Russ on Prospero he wasn't trying to kill him, he was just trying to hold him back so that he could complete his spell.

So, canonically... Magnus fought Russ to a stalemate WHILE channeling one of the most powerful spells a (roughly) human psyker has ever cast in the history of the galaxy, and STILL had to take special care not to accidentally kill him. Yeah... I think Magnus would win this one out of sheer OPness.

Magnus almost died to a broken Eldar Titan. He's not all that. Being seconds from death and living only because of literal divine intervention is not a stalemate.

It only got to that point because Magnus was holding back the entire time. He very much did NOT want to kill Russ, even though he hated his guts, all he wanted was for the wolves to stop killing his men. You wouldn't say Horus was a match for the emperor even though Horus mortally wounded him would you?

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Magnus is the easy choice if you assume he can just "do anything at any time," without consequence. Assuming he has the ability to just snap his fingers and both locate & instantly destroy all the other primarchs is ridiculous. If he had these powers, he would have done so at any point post-heresy. When he showed up and faced off against Guilliman, he was winning, but Guilliman was also out of ammo and had been fighting like crazy for some time. There is simply not enough evidence to suggest Magnus has the powers you say he does. It's highly likely that if he were encountered by someone like Angron or Russ early on, he would lose.

It's not an assumption. Magnus has been canonically stated in multiple sources to be almost as powerful, or as powerful psychically as the emperor himself. Considering that the emperor erased Horus from fething EXISTENCE with a mere thought (the pumped up chaos version of Horus no less, AND did it while mortally wounded) it is not a stretch to say that Magnus could do something similar. I recall in one of the Thousand Sons novels, when Magnus was squaring off against Russ on Prospero he wasn't trying to kill him, he was just trying to hold him back so that he could complete his spell.

So, canonically... Magnus fought Russ to a stalemate WHILE channeling one of the most powerful spells a (roughly) human psyker has ever cast in the history of the galaxy, and STILL had to take special care not to accidentally kill him. Yeah... I think Magnus would win this one out of sheer OPness.

Magnus almost died to a broken Eldar Titan. He's not all that. Being seconds from death and living only because of literal divine intervention is not a stalemate.

It only got to that point because Magnus was holding back the entire time. He very much did NOT want to kill Russ, even though he hated his guts, all he wanted was for the wolves to stop killing his men. You wouldn't say Horus was a match for the emperor even though Horus mortally wounded him would you?

Then Magnus should have stopped them. Which is very much within what you claim he can do.

pm713 wrote:

Then Magnus should have stopped them. Which is very much within what you claim he can do.

You are being facetious. Magnus can't just snap his fingers and destroy the entire space wolf fleet in orbit as well as the hundreds of thousands of wolves who invaded Prospero. I am not claiming Magnus has that strength, because not even the emperor has that kind of strength. I am claiming that INDIVIDUALLY, Magnus is the most powerful primarch due to his ridiculous psychic power.

The fact is, psychically at least, Magnus was close to, or on par with the emperor himself. This is an indisputable fact stated multiple times in the lore across many different sources. It is also a fact that the emperor psychically destroyed Horus with ease after he realized he was a lost cause. It stands to reason then that Magnus, having comparable psychic power to the emperor, is capable of a similar feat. So unless you are claiming that somehow Russ was stronger then Horus at the peak of his power with all of the powers that chaos gave him, then Magnus was perfectly capable of exploding Russ' head with a flick of his finger at the Battle of Prospero. He CHOSE not to because of his own guilt. This was all explained in the Thousand Sons novels.

No but he can easily erect barriers, or freeze them, or teleport his men elsewhere or any number of other things.

The fact is that Magnus is nowhere near as strong as people say. Either he lacks the strength to do these feats or he lacks the intelligence to think of doing them. His guilt would do nothing to stop him saving his people. You can say the lore says he's that good all you like but the lore shows he's not. You can't argue he can do all these things but then ignore that he doesn't. A being like Magnus as presented by you should easily deal with a Titan yet he's nearly killed by a broken one.

You have to take into account what happened with Propero to begin to understand what could/couldn’t have happened in regards to Magnus’ power. He single handily clouded the psychic vision of his entire legion and all psykers on the planet to ensure the Space Wolves could approach and land without “issue”. Along with disabling the void defences. Magnus wanted Russ to see that he was capitulating and was prepared to not fight and atone for his mistakes. The difference was, that Russ and his fleet were under new, false orders.

Also, the Thousand Sons (roughly a thousand of them…) along with the Prosprine Guard forces were inflicting insane losses on the HUGE combined Space Wolf forces, which contained small aspects of forces from other legions, Custodes and Sisters of Silence. All without the support of Magnus.

Magnus certainly had the power to perform huge, insane, feats of power at the cost of making him basically fall into a coma. One example is in the Crimson King Primarch book, where he prevents a surface to void transport ship carrying tens of thousands of people from crashing back to the planet and killing everyone – he then had to be carried by Perturabo cos he couldn’t walk.

As for nearly dying to an Eldar titan – I’m pretty sure all the Primarchs would have died if they got struck dead on by an Eldar Phantom? Titans “D” weapon blast at essentially point blank range. You also have to take into account, he’d pretty much single handily killed the 2nd of the Titans just before as well.

In regards to a Space Hulk style fight, I think Corax or Cruze would come out the victor, simply because of their abilities in regards to stealth. Both were also incredible fighters and both knew how to fight when at an advantage. They would simply use their abilities and strike when they had clear advantages.

If we are looking at an open continent with no restrictions, it’d have to go to Magnus 95% of the time, but, there could still be instances of another winning.

Mortarion could also be a bit of a wildcard in some situations. He is extremely resilient, a decent fighter and had the use of extremely potent toxins and chemical weapons. Sure, they might not be able to kill a Primarch on their own, but, they will certainly incapacitate in some regard.



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pm713 wrote:
No but he can easily erect barriers, or freeze them, or teleport his men elsewhere or any number of other things.

The fact is that Magnus is nowhere near as strong as people say. Either he lacks the strength to do these feats or he lacks the intelligence to think of doing them. His guilt would do nothing to stop him saving his people. You can say the lore says he's that good all you like but the lore shows he's not. You can't argue he can do all these things but then ignore that he doesn't. A being like Magnus as presented by you should easily deal with a Titan yet he's nearly killed by a broken one.

You do realise the reason why Prospero fell in the first place was because Magnus pretty much took zero part in it and didn’t want to help/survive. He only came out to fight in the end because he pretty much had no choice. He was deep in one of the infamous “Primarch baby rages” at the time. By the time he did go to fight, he gathered all his remaining Sons inside the Temple behind him and bore the full brunt of Russ and the remaining anti-psyker force alone.

As was also said, he didn’t fight to win and (I believe) had various points within the combat with Russ to end the fight, but didn’t. His priority, at the time was simply on other things. You also have to take into consideration that hypocritical Russ was also using a form of psychic power during the assault.



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And, if you didn’t notice, he did teleport his men out in the end, all whilst still fighting and dealing with the fact that Russ had just broken his back. Magic, which was stated as having been worked during the entire duel.

As for the titan, what are you referring to as “broken”? If I remember correctly, at the point where it blasted Magnus he’d only crumped one of the arm weapons, leaving the other fully functioning? Also, he was dealing with a 2nd titan at the same time just before, whilst holding back the full extent of his powers because he didn’t know how the Space Wolves present would react to them and didn’t want them to become common knowledge. All of which had made him weary in terms of energy due to the nature of the fight.

In other words Magnus is so emotionally unstable he's not going to fight his brothers unless someone gets tortured to death in front of him or something.

He hardly bore the full brunt of anything. He fought Russ and did some background magic while the Wolves circumvented him.

Plus all the stuff done on Prospero is done after Magnus gets mega buffed by Tzeentch.

The broken Titan was on some planet with a webway portal, it had a load of broken wraith constructs in general. It's in Thousand Sons I think.
The Titan blasted Magnus with one weapon and the second shot would have killed him but another Son jumped in the way a shield and died instead.

I have a question. Why all the hate for Russ? People seem to enjoy making him the villain of Prospero when at worst he's as bad as Magnus. The way some people act you'd think Magnus was perfect.

How is he *not* a villian on Prospero?

He gets told "go arrest your brother". On his way, he gets told that the orders are now "go kill your brother". He shows up. HIs brother's fleet isn't present. HIs brother's defense forces are stood down. His brother is clearly not resisting. His brother is not fighting back.

What does he do? Investigate? Ask a flipping question? Consider gaining the upper hand then get clarification?

Nope. The Emperor's dog follows his "orders", with no thought or consideration if (1) he should have and (2) assume he should follow orders, if he can accomplish it without wholesale slaughter, or with verification.

That's why he's the bad guy. Thats not 'as bad as Magnus' in that situation. Magnus willingly sacrificed any protection he might have to avoid getting IoM legionaires - Sons and Wolves alike - from getting killed. Russ willingly sacrified Wolves to kill Sons.

Russ, especially at Prospero, is a villian. Magnus is debatable in several ways at several points in "history", but is clearly a hero up until the end.

Magnus is not the hero of Prospero at all. He was a self centred egotist who destroyed a plan for mankind's survival and protection 30,000 years in making, because he thought he knew better than the one person he knew was smarter than him. Not piling on to his disgrace by resisting Russ' arrival hardly makes him the hero of the hour.

Of the day, no, but hour, yes.

By Propsero, I thought we were talking about the battle itself, not the events leading to it. He was boneheaded. Many times.

Being stupid and warning your father of a plot via the best way you can think of is clearly less evil than being stupid and trying to kill everybody on a planet because you think your father wants it.

My point isn't that Magnus isn't evil, or that he didn't do stupid things. It's that Russ was certainly worse than Magnus, at least as far as the battle of Propsero is concerned.

pm713 wrote:
No but he can easily erect barriers, or freeze them, or teleport his men elsewhere or any number of other things.

Which he does. He is the one who wrought the spell that transported all of the remaining thousand sons to the planet of sorcerers within the eye of terror. He was channeling the entire time while fighting Russ. If I recall correctly, he intended to stay behind and let Russ kill him, but Tzeentch had other plans.

pm713 wrote:
In other words Magnus is so emotionally unstable he's not going to fight his brothers unless someone gets tortured to death in front of him or something.

Plus all the stuff done on Prospero is done after Magnus gets mega buffed by Tzeentch.

You are being facetious again. Also, Magnus didn't get "mega buffed" by Tzeentch until after Prospero, at which point he was turned into a demon prince and became more insanely powerful then he already was.

pm713 wrote:

I have a question. Why all the hate for Russ? People seem to enjoy making him the villain of Prospero when at worst he's as bad as Magnus. The way some people act you'd think Magnus was perfect.

Because mostly he is an enormous hypocrite. He was one of the loudest ones calling for psykers to be banned, but even after Nikea when the emperor laid down the law he still used psykers *ahem* "rune priests" in his own legion. On top of that, his entire basis for the animosity towards the thousand sons was because they fought in a manner that he believed was "cowardly". FFS when he met the Lion for the first time, the Lion was reading a book under a tree, Russ came up and knocked the book out of the Lion's hand and called him a pansy for doing something as unmanly as reading. Russ was proud of the fact that he was illiterate. On top of that he absolutely jumped at the opportunity to kill his brother and dismantle the Thousand Sons. Almost every other loyalist primarch would have considered it a solemn duty and would have taken no joy in it, but Russ was actually excited at the prospect and was salivating over drowning Prospero in blood.

Magnus had good intentions, but they were twisted to do great harm by the machinations of a chaos god. He is most certainly a tragic hero that was played like a fiddle by the changer of ways from the very beginning.

Russ was just a loud, arrogant, attack dog kept on a short leash by the emperor who bit at anyone who came close to him. His relationship with the Lion is a perfect example of that.

Magnus got buffed by Tzeentch in order to burst through the webway, which was before the battle of Prospero.

And yet he can't defeat Guilliman after he resurrects - before Guilliman has the emperor's sword, and is also out of ammo in his mounted gun.

If he's as strong as you say he could just snap his fingers and destroy Guilliman. Without the ability to fly he would have lost this fight in seconds.

There is no consistent definition of his power, both before he was +1'd by Tzeentch, and after. There is no reason to believe he can simply locate and delete people though, regardless of what book you're looking at. You are absolutely exaggerating his power.

Pre-Tzeentch there is more evidence that Guilliman could beat him than not, based on their duel post-Tzeentch in the crusade to terra. And Guilliman is not the strongest in single-combat of the pre-chaos primarchs.

 Marmatag wrote:
And yet he can't defeat Guilliman after he resurrects - before Guilliman has the emperor's sword, and is also out of ammo in his mounted gun.

You aren't new enough to 40k to need me to explain ultramarines plot armor to you.

Now who's being facetious?

Back on topic. OP, if you are going to keep eliminating parameters that effectively eliminates primarchs from your hypothetical scenario why don't you just skip forward and tell us who you want picked?

This thread now has more facets then d100, mine included.

 JamesY wrote:

Guilliman in Know No Fear when Kor Phaeron repeatedly blasts him
Perturabo having his essence stolen in Angel Exterminatus
Angron's mind killing the psykers who try to communicate with him in Betrayer
Sanguinius resisting warpfire (I want to say in Ruinstorm? Might be wrong there)
That's off the top of my head.

They were all made with the help of warp sorcery, so they are all going to have a base level of resistance. Again, I'm not saying Magnus wouldn't wreck some carnage, nor that he isn't a strong contender for the win. Just that he isn't a guarantee based on his abilities. The only primarchs so far that have canonically killed another primarch are Fulgrim and Dorn, so that should count for something.

Bringing up Guilliman in Know No Fear is honestly the last thing you should have done, since Kor Phaeron near-effortlessly dominated and subdued Guilliman, and was only stopped from killing him due to his arrogance in attempting to corrupt him.


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 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

How about, battle royal, on a space hulk, each Primarch starts at a random point and the space hulk is currently in the Warp where psyker effects are nullified/nerfed.

First of all, you aren't the thread creator, you can't change the stips of the thread when you want.

Second of all, that is literally the opposite of how a psyker being in the Warp works. In the Warp a psyker is at their most powerful.


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pm713 wrote:

Magnus almost died to a broken Eldar Titan. He's not all that. Being seconds from death and living only because of literal divine intervention is not a stalemate.

By comparison, that Eldar Titan (which was explicitly larger than a Warlord) would have easily killed his brothers, considering Angron (arguably the most powerful physical combatant) could only barely restrain the foot of a Warhound Titan and nothing else.

The other Primarchs aren't even playing the same game. Angron slaughters armies, Vulkan destroys tanks, but Magnus incinerates titans and stops twelve kilometer ships from destroying cities.


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pm713 wrote:
No but he can easily erect barriers, or freeze them, or teleport his men elsewhere or any number of other things.

He did do that last one though. He teleported them to the other side of the galaxy, a spell he was channeling while fighting Leman Russ and his Legion.

Have you read the story, or just skimmed a synopsis on lexicanum?

The fact is that Magnus is nowhere near as strong as people say. Either he lacks the strength to do these feats or he lacks the intelligence to think of doing them. His guilt would do nothing to stop him saving his people. You can say the lore says he's that good all you like but the lore shows he's not. You can't argue he can do all these things but then ignore that he doesn't. A being like Magnus as presented by you should easily deal with a Titan yet he's nearly killed by a broken one.

Magnus has easily dealt with Titans. He incinerated the giant Ork Gargant with little fanfare, and in fact did kill one of the two Eldar Titans. Oh, you didn't know there were two of them, and that it was only after destroying the first that he was compromised? You really might want to actually read the stories you're discussing my friend. Then you might also know they weren't broken, just daemon-possessed.


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pm713 wrote:

He hardly bore the full brunt of anything. He fought Russ and did some background magic while the Wolves circumvented him.

He was directing his powers to the Space Wolf force assembled against him, the two giant wolves fighting alongside Russ (which had each wounded his legs btw), Russ himself, and the greatest spell cast by a sorcerer in the Heresy all at once (with the only real competition being the ascension spells of Fulgrim and Angron), with the energies of the latter being so potent that they were tearing the veil asunder and destroying the surface of Prospero.

And your conjecture that Magnus was amplified by Tzeentch is just that, purely conjecture. Magnus borrowed some power that was probably Tzeentch's lying in the Warp for the final push to break through the Emperor's wards in the Webway. There is as far as I recall no indication that he retained that power, considering he depleted it for that sole act.


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 Marmatag wrote:
And yet he can't defeat Guilliman after he resurrects - before Guilliman has the emperor's sword, and is also out of ammo in his mounted gun.

If he's as strong as you say he could just snap his fingers and destroy Guilliman. Without the ability to fly he would have lost this fight in seconds.

There is no consistent definition of his power, both before he was +1'd by Tzeentch, and after. There is no reason to believe he can simply locate and delete people though, regardless of what book you're looking at. You are absolutely exaggerating his power.

Pre-Tzeentch there is more evidence that Guilliman could beat him than not, based on their duel post-Tzeentch in the crusade to terra. And Guilliman is not the strongest in single-combat of the pre-chaos primarchs.

Interesting, because I recall Guilliman spending most of that fight desperately on the run and trying to stay alive before the Sisters of Silence came to help nullify Magnus' powers. And keep in mind this is an amped Guilliman, enhanced by technology.

Guilliman got blown the feth out by Kor Phaeron one on one. Guilliman couldn't touch him due to Kor Phaeron's sorcerous power. And you think he'd beat Magnus? Interesting.

@void_dragon you have missed my point, which was that surviving the attack at all shows that he must have had some natural resilience against psychic attack. If he didn't Kor Pheron wouldn't have needed to draw his anatheme knife to finish him off.

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
And yet he can't defeat Guilliman after he resurrects - before Guilliman has the emperor's sword, and is also out of ammo in his mounted gun.

You aren't new enough to 40k to need me to explain ultramarines plot armor to you.

So it's plot armour when Guilliman does it, but perfectly fine when Magnus does?

Double standard much.

Guilliman was hardly one of the best CQC Primarchs, but if he could survive as long as he did against some of these depictions of Magnus people are making, that must mean Guilliman is pretty incredibly strong - OR people are overhyping Magnus, and it's easier to assume that he was poorly written with certain abilities so as to literally Deus-Ex-Machina certain things.

Seriously, Magnus' psychic powers are as powerful as the plot needs them to be - they're not quantifiable. Needs to blot out the minds of his entire Legion so the Thousand Sons don't kill the Wolves in orbit and stop Prospero happening? Done. Need to create some kind of way for the Thousand Sons to escape nearly being slaughtered? Psychic powers! Need to have Magnus singlehandedly turn the tide so that your last stand can be resolved without the Thousand Sons dying? Psychic powers!

Magnus' abilities, like nearly ANY Primarch, are tied to the plot. We have Angron who can shrug off mountains falling on him and getting shot in the head, but we also have Primarchs like Vulkan being killed with a fork, and Guilliman being nearly killed by a single squad of Alpha Legionnaires with regular bolters. We have Lorgar, the "weakest" Primarch, killing An'ggrath, the most favoured Bloodthirster of Khorne, but gets his ass handed to him by the other Primarchs.

The problem with the Primarchs is that they have no consistent power scaling. I severely doubt Magnus could do all the things people in this thread say he can, purely because if that were so, then he could have effectively ended ANY conflict in the Horus Heresy.

Also, about Guilliman and Kor Phaeron? Note that Guilliman has been fighting in a vacuum without a helmet and killing entire squads of Word Bearers in SPACE. He's been fighting for hours in adverse conditions. Kor Phaeron's been sitting pretty in his flagship this whole time. Considering we actually SEE Guilliman engaging Tzeentch powered Magnus, without the Sisters of Silence, I don't think he was just running away from him.

Why is this even a question? The last man standing will always be Alpharius.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Why is this even a question? The last man standing will always be Alpharius.

Magnus lives, but Magnus is actually Alpharius and all he has done is kill himself to reveal that he is actually Alpharius.

Bharring wrote:
How is he *not* a villian on Prospero?

He gets told "go arrest your brother". On his way, he gets told that the orders are now "go kill your brother". He shows up. HIs brother's fleet isn't present. HIs brother's defense forces are stood down. His brother is clearly not resisting. His brother is not fighting back.

What does he do? Investigate? Ask a flipping question? Consider gaining the upper hand then get clarification?

Nope. The Emperor's dog follows his "orders", with no thought or consideration if (1) he should have and (2) assume he should follow orders, if he can accomplish it without wholesale slaughter, or with verification.

That's why he's the bad guy. Thats not 'as bad as Magnus' in that situation. Magnus willingly sacrificed any protection he might have to avoid getting IoM legionaires - Sons and Wolves alike - from getting killed. Russ willingly sacrified Wolves to kill Sons.

Russ, especially at Prospero, is a villian. Magnus is debatable in several ways at several points in "history", but is clearly a hero up until the end.

Magnus killed thousands of people, destroyed his entire species future purely from his own arrogance and threw a tantrum about it. He's the villain.

And yes Russ did try and ask questions and investigate via Kasper Hawser who everyone believed was a Thousand Son spy. Russ was doing the correct thing in the context of the situation. Russ was told that Prospero was to be destroyed, he attempted to find an alternative and failed then followed the orders. Magnus is undeniably a Traitor and rather than using his immense powers to stop the conflict he sulked. If that's not the villain then what is?

Do we have any sources about how well Magnus's powers work without Tzeentchian intervention *after* someone has put some lightning claws into his back? Because I'm pretty sure Curze or Corax would start a fight with Magnus *after* he's worn down with another Primarch and with a hearty first strike.

Also, does everyone voting for Vulkan realize that Vulkan needed both divine intervention from Emps *and* Curze wanting to die to escape the maze?

Vulkan loses this game when he's killed enough to lose his sanity and tries to swim away because the voices in his head tell him to.

Much of 40k lore is bolter porn or Malice style edgy, but every once in a while, there are interesting points to debate.

The Russ vs Magnus: Who was more evil at Prospero is one of them.

I'd start a seperate thread on that, but I shoudln't get drawn into it right now.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So it's plot armour when Guilliman does it, but perfectly fine when Magnus does?

Double standard much.

It's plot armor because in earlier novels, Guilliman was easily defeated in a 1v1 duel by Kor Phaeron who isn't even a primarch, as was stated by another user here. Unless you are claiming Kor Phaeron is stronger than a demon prince Magnus which is ridiculous. In fact, I'd say Guilliman was one of the weaker primarchs combat wise. What he was though was an extremely able strategist, logistician, general, and statesman which are his strengths, far more than any of the other primarchs with the possible exception of Perturabo on the logistician part and the Lion on the strategist part.

Whenever two lore sources conflict sometimes it is hard to reconcile which one is "accurate". But, I put very low stock in some of the ultramines stuff because the massive Wardian fanwank over them in 5th spawned countless ultramarine black library novels that are entirely ridiculous. I vaguely remember reading something about a nameless ultramarine tactical taking on a demon prince in 1v1 and killing him, and the book making it seem like that was par for the course for ultramarines, at which point I absolutely stopped reading.

It's different then what you call Magnus' plot armor because Magnus was established to have these abilities we are talking about across MANY books and a lot of source material. If Guilliman took on Angron and Fulgrim 1v1 and survived in other books I would definitely revise my view about Guilliman's power level relative to the ascended traitor primarchs. Until then, that one moment where Guilliman squares off against demon prince Magnus remains a sadly plot-armory one-off in my mind.

 JamesY wrote:
@void_dragon you have missed my point, which was that surviving the attack at all shows that he must have had some natural resilience against psychic attack. If he didn't Kor Pheron wouldn't have needed to draw his anatheme knife to finish him off.

He has some natural resistance against psychic attack in the sense that he's a Primarch, a superhumanly durable demigod able to survive being hit by a Titan's gun. Per Leman Russ, his own resistance to psychic powers is uniquely formidable, and he outright states that Magnus' psychic attacks would have killed his other brothers.

And Kor Phaeron didn't need to use the anathame. He chose to relent his psychic assault because he wanted to corrupt Guilliman to their side like they had Horus using it.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So it's plot armour when Guilliman does it, but perfectly fine when Magnus does?

It's not really plot armour. Guilliman was running for his life against Magnus, barely able to survive, much less fight.

Double standard much.

Guilliman was hardly one of the best CQC Primarchs, but if he could survive as long as he did against some of these depictions of Magnus people are making, that must mean Guilliman is pretty incredibly strong - OR people are overhyping Magnus, and it's easier to assume that he was poorly written with certain abilities so as to literally Deus-Ex-Machina certain things.

Guilliman as of his ressurection has had his natural Primarch abilities technologically enhanced.

Also, frankly, Guilliman is one of the better Primarchs in combat, as shown when he fought Lorgar and Angron in quick succession, and though he ultimately lost, by Lorgar's admission Angron looked scarcely better than Guilliman by the end of the fight.

I severely doubt Magnus could do all the things people in this thread say he can, purely because if that were so, then he could have effectively ended ANY conflict in the Horus Heresy.

You ever wonder why Magnus is spending the majority of the plot sitting around at the Planet of the Sorcerers, rather than directly participating in the plot? It's because he actually can effectively end many conflicts with his presence alone. He's the wizard that did it. Look at Deathfire. When he shows up (technically a shard), he proceeds to banish Daemons, Death Guard, and Word Bearers from Charybdis and drop the ship into the Sol system.

Also, about Guilliman and Kor Phaeron? Note that Guilliman has been fighting in a vacuum without a helmet and killing entire squads of Word Bearers in SPACE. He's been fighting for hours in adverse conditions. Kor Phaeron's been sitting pretty in his flagship this whole time. Considering we actually SEE Guilliman engaging Tzeentch powered Magnus, without the Sisters of Silence, I don't think he was just running away from him.

Primarchs have nearly limitless stamina, nor do they need to breathe. You can argue he might not have been top shape, but the story doesn't portray him as particularly weakened. And frankly, Kor Phaeron isn't half the psyker Ahriman is, much less Magnus.

And have you read the fight? I have, though I can't find it online anymore. IIRC Guilliman spends the vast majority of the fight up to that point avoiding Magnus' assault, getting ragdolled, and trying to take potshots at Magnus when he can, with Magnus only barely taking the fight seriously.


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pm713 wrote:

Magnus killed thousands of people, destroyed his entire species future purely from his own arrogance and threw a tantrum about it. He's the villain.

Are you referring to his breach of the Webway Gate? That was an accident, he didn't even know it existed, and he was deeply mournful over it, so ashamed of his actions he left immediately and initially chose to accept the execution headed his way.

You seem to have some real trouble remembering the events of these books. Are you sure you've read them?

And yes Russ did try and ask questions and investigate via Kasper Hawser who everyone believed was a Thousand Son spy. Russ was doing the correct thing in the context of the situation. Russ was told that Prospero was to be destroyed, he attempted to find an alternative and failed then followed the orders. Magnus is undeniably a Traitor and rather than using his immense powers to stop the conflict he sulked. If that's not the villain then what is?

If by "everyone" you mean "the Space Wolves" then yes, the entirely Legion was bamboozled and fooled by a lone Daemon into believing Magnus had Kasper as a spy. Russ isn't actively evil or malicious, he's just stupid, I'd agree. And his stupidity made him the villain.


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 EmpNortonII wrote:
Do we have any sources about how well Magnus's powers work without Tzeentchian intervention *after* someone has put some lightning claws into his back? Because I'm pretty sure Curze or Corax would start a fight with Magnus *after* he's worn down with another Primarch and with a hearty first strike.

His powers were working fine after Russ broke his arm. To stop Magnus' psychic assault it's best to go for the eye.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's not really plot armour. Guilliman was running for his life against Magnus, barely able to survive, much less fight.

It was plot armor that he even managed to survive at all. Even with Cawl's boosts.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, frankly, Guilliman is one of the better Primarchs in combat, as shown when he fought Lorgar and Angron in quick succession, and though he ultimately lost, by Lorgar's admission Angron looked scarcely better than Guilliman by the end of the fight.

I actually disagree with you here. None of the primarchs were weak, every one could have stood up to any of the others in a fight and give a good scrap, but to compare Guilliman's combat abilities to the likes of Angron, the Lion, or even Russ is seriously stretching things. To say that "Guilliman is one of the better primarchs in (personal) combat" is flat out wrong. Almost every time he has fought one of his brothers he has lost.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Primarchs have nearly limitless stamina, nor do they need to breathe. You can argue he might not have been top shape, but the story doesn't portray him as particularly weakened. And frankly, Kor Phaeron isn't half the psyker Ahriman is, much less Magnus.

On this I absolutely agree with you. Even the Eldar are terrified of Ahriman, and Ahriman freely admits that Magnus is far more powerful than even him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
...Russ isn't actively evil or malicious, he's just stupid...

He's both. He was very loyal to the emperor, but he had serious aggression issues towards his brothers, worse than even Angron. Not only that, his unadulterated hatred toward Magnus and his legion for being "mutants" and using "witchcraft" in battle was seriously bewildering considering the rate of mutation within his own legion, and his own refusal to follow the Emperor's judgement at Nikea by continuing to use rune priests. It's also really hard to like a guy who is proud of the fact that he is illiterate.

For me its either between Lion El'Johnson or Horus Lupercal. My reasoning behind this is their tactical supremecy. If you look at each primarchs victories Lion comes in second to Horus throughout the great crusade.
They would simply trick the others into fighting one another until they were to tried to fight anymore then finish them off. Lion does have an advantage in a hunger games setting as its usually in the woods.
The dude survived alone as a baby and killed corrupted warp beasts I repeat AS A BABY.

We have to take into consideration that in this instance either Vulcan isn't a perpetual or that once he is down he would be considered out as if you cant die then it defeats the purpose of being there in the first place.

pm713 wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
I'd say Vulkan, due to him being a Perpetual and also since the Emperor created him as the strongest physical Primarch.

How is he the strongest physical Primarch?

In "Vulkan Lives", durring a flashback, Vulkan dead-lifts a Baneblade in order to make room for civilians being crushed by their own number.

In "Promethean Sun", two Salamanders recover Vulkan's helmet after the drop site massacre. One dons the helm and repalys the recorded footage, showing a first person view of Vulkan rampaging through the Death Guard and World Eaters. At one point he punches through the FRONT armor of a Vindicators and rips out the pilot, and then proceeds to squish and cast him aside. All with one arm.

In "The Beast Must Die" Vulkan Duels and defeats an Ork the size of an Imperial Knight.

Theres also a nice little image of Vulkan catching a gigantic slab of ferrocrete that was falling towards some scattering humans from the newer novel "Old Earth"


Vulkan has an element of raw strength that is inhumane even when compared to the lunacy that is the Primarchs. If he gets his hands a hold of you, or Terra forbid lands a strike with one of his hammers, the only outcome is someone scooping your paste up off the battlefield. And you may think this power comes with a large drawback in speed. Nah, hes able to keep up with any of his brothers reaction wise.

I'll admit, I'm a bit behind on my Horus Heresy, but is there a time where the Lion ever beat one of his brothers in a fair fight? I only know about his fights with Konrad, which go 4) Held off Konrad together *alongside* Girlyman (and still just held him off as he lured the two into a trap) 3) Konrad fled into the ship (where Lion failed to hunt him down even having home field advantage) having just woken up from a coma 2) Beat Konrad although we have no idea how fair the fight may have been and 1) stabbed Konrad in the stomach with a cowardly sucker-stab and proceeded to still lose to Konrad, having only survived the encounter due to the intervention from his bodyguards.

Seems like he has an awful lot of votes if he has a mixed record against a Primarch not known for his effectiveness in a straight fight.

Also, didn't Vulkan once die from being stabbed with a fork? Strong and durable are two very different things.

Well Konrad did also hold his own against not just the Lion but also Sanguinious both of whom had precognition and Sanguinious realizing he wouldn't be able to defeat Konrad. Konrad also killed Vulkan multiple times not just in capture but also on Maccrage. Corax was about to kill Lorgar but made a hasty retreat when Konrad came to the rescue knowing he couldn't win that fight. He's not necessarily top dog but Konrad is a vicious dog that other primarchs don't underestimate.

Primarchs are superhumans, each one of them is portrait as more or less skilled warrior, from the supreme duelist Angron to the mightiest of all Vulkan.
Konrad is always descripted as a sort of crazy monster / force of nature.
I think there is no match for everyone against him, is pure omicidal istinct that foresee what an enemy could do.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Also, didn't Vulkan once die from being stabbed with a fork? Strong and durable are two very different things.

Yes, while being starved for months and being chained to a chair. Literally could not stop it from happening.

Also unarmored and Konrad was the one with the fork lol. Flesh is still flesh. This remains the same with every primarch. Besides Ferrus's arms, and that didnt help his neck.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
This remains the same with every primarch. Besides Ferrus's arms, and that didnt help his neck.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Besides Ferrus's arms, and that didnt help his neck.

 Midnightdeathblade 756538 wrote:
that didnt help his neck.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
This remains the same with every primarch. Besides Ferrus's arms, and that didnt help his neck.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Besides Ferrus's arms, and that didnt help his neck.

 Midnightdeathblade 756538 wrote:
that didnt help his neck.

I don't care who wins, so long as Lorgar loses. F--- that guy.

Once it's down to Magnus and one other guy the big red cyclops would take off his helmet and reveal he was Alpharius. The other guy would take off his helmet and its Omegon. Then they both pull off Mission Impossible/Scooby Doo style rubber masks to show Alpharius was actually Omegon & Omegon was really Alpharius.

Then a third primarch would emerge from the shadows. He's Alpharius too.

So, until Magnus is dead, Sanguinius is not going to be able to make much use of his wings, for fear of being shot down by mind bullets.

Does Lorgar have enough juice to shoot Sanguinius down with mind bullets? I know he's a pretty powerful psyker, but he's nowhere near Magnus's level.

Are there any other Primarchs that might be capable of psyker-ing Sang out of the air if he flies high enough to be visible from everywhere?

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

In "Vulkan Lives", durring a flashback, Vulkan dead-lifts a Baneblade in order to make room for civilians being crushed by their own number.

In "Promethean Sun", two Salamanders recover Vulkan's helmet after the drop site massacre. One dons the helm and repalys the recorded footage, showing a first person view of Vulkan rampaging through the Death Guard and World Eaters. At one point he punches through the FRONT armor of a Vindicators and rips out the pilot, and then proceeds to squish and cast him aside. All with one arm.

In "The Beast Must Die" Vulkan Duels and defeats an Ork the size of an Imperial Knight.

Theres also a nice little image of Vulkan catching a gigantic slab of ferrocrete that was falling towards some scattering humans from the newer novel "Old Earth"


Vulkan has an element of raw strength that is inhumane even when compared to the lunacy that is the Primarchs. If he gets his hands a hold of you, or Terra forbid lands a strike with one of his hammers, the only outcome is someone scooping your paste up off the battlefield. And you may think this power comes with a large drawback in speed. Nah, hes able to keep up with any of his brothers reaction wise.

And Angron has stopped a Warhound Titan's advance by holding its foot in place with his bare hands in Betrayer, as well as pushed a mountain of debris off of him in False Gods I believe. Vulkan being the physically strongest (and tallest, for that matter, in Fulgrim he was explicitly shorter than Ferrus Manus) Primarch is largely only prevalent in works by Nick Kyme, also known as the Salamanders fan in BL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I'll admit, I'm a bit behind on my Horus Heresy, but is there a time where the Lion ever beat one of his brothers in a fair fight? I only know about his fights with Konrad, which go 4) Held off Konrad together *alongside* Girlyman (and still just held him off as he lured the two into a trap) 3) Konrad fled into the ship (where Lion failed to hunt him down even having home field advantage) having just woken up from a coma 2) Beat Konrad although we have no idea how fair the fight may have been and 1) stabbed Konrad in the stomach with a cowardly sucker-stab and proceeded to still lose to Konrad, having only survived the encounter due to the intervention from his bodyguards.

Seems like he has an awful lot of votes if he has a mixed record against a Primarch not known for his effectiveness in a straight fight.

Also, didn't Vulkan once die from being stabbed with a fork? Strong and durable are two very different things.

Konrad Curze was getting dominated by the Lion weapon to weapon in their first fight, only gaining the advantage when he managed to transition their fight into a brawl. Konrad is pretty consistently portrayed as a top tier brawler among the Primarchs. He almost killed Dorn with his bare hands once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
So, until Magnus is dead, Sanguinius is not going to be able to make much use of his wings, for fear of being shot down by mind bullets.

Does Lorgar have enough juice to shoot Sanguinius down with mind bullets? I know he's a pretty powerful psyker, but he's nowhere near Magnus's level.

Are there any other Primarchs that might be capable of psyker-ing Sang out of the air if he flies high enough to be visible from everywhere?

Lorgar in Betrayer was able to toss a boulder with enough force to destroy a Warhound Titan. As far as other Primarchs, while quite a few of them have shown psychic talents, the others typically do it subconsciously and requiring touch. Sanguinius is probably the third most powerful psyker among the Primarchs, having future sight and demonstrating the ability to slow his capital ships descent and guide it to a safe landing with a touch in Fear to Tread.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

And Angron has stopped a Warhound Titan's advance by holding its foot in place with his bare hands in Betrayer, as well as pushed a mountain of debris off of him in False Gods I believe. Vulkan being the physically strongest (and tallest, for that matter, in Fulgrim he was explicitly shorter than Ferrus Manus) Primarch is largely only prevalent in works by Nick Kyme, also known as the Salamanders fan in BL.

I won't comment on the strength, but it seems like Vulkan being the largest (aside from Magnus) is something FW agrees on. When his model came out they noted that he was absolutely enormous and that they designed his model (who is wearing PA) to be as large as Horus is in his TDA.

Make of that what you will.

In hand to hand its between Sangiunius, Angron, Lion, Russ, Horus and Fulgrim

In resourcefulness its Cruze, Corax

In uniting a group to kill the rest its, Girlyman, Dorn, Perty, Vulken

In guerrilla tactics its Alpharius, Khan, Cruze and Corax.

In sitting around praying until everyone is dead its Lorgar

In knowing who will win so he sits there and just watches fate unfold its Magnus.

In who gets his head chopped off its Ferrus.

There's some real discussion going on here, I'm pretty surprised at some of the choices.

One thing which surprised me is the lack of teamwork implied. The guy above me suggested it briefly, but has anyone else considered that some of the Primarches may team up? People are claiming Vulkan will take it easily, but will he if, for example, Sanguinius, Dorn and Lion gang up on him. If they do, then what happens afterwards?

 Valkyrie wrote:
There's some real discussion going on here, I'm pretty surprised at some of the choices.

One thing which surprised me is the lack of teamwork implied. The guy above me suggested it briefly, but has anyone else considered that some of the Primarches may team up? People are claiming Vulkan will take it easily, but will he if, for example, Sanguinius, Dorn and Lion gang up on him. If they do, then what happens afterwards?

All 19 others could gang up on Vulkan - incinerate him and he'll just keep coming back. He's a perpetual and cannot die. He literally goes through life playing in God Mode. It's the fundamental problem with the challenge.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
There's some real discussion going on here, I'm pretty surprised at some of the choices.

One thing which surprised me is the lack of teamwork implied. The guy above me suggested it briefly, but has anyone else considered that some of the Primarches may team up? People are claiming Vulkan will take it easily, but will he if, for example, Sanguinius, Dorn and Lion gang up on him. If they do, then what happens afterwards?

All 19 others could gang up on Vulkan - incinerate him and he'll just keep coming back. He's a perpetual and cannot die. He literally goes through life playing in God Mode. It's the fundamental problem with the challenge.

He's a perpetual, he comes back from nearly everything but he can still die as all perpetuals can. Magnus could probably find a way to kill him with his warp <removed>.

edited for language - BrookM

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
There's some real discussion going on here, I'm pretty surprised at some of the choices.

One thing which surprised me is the lack of teamwork implied. The guy above me suggested it briefly, but has anyone else considered that some of the Primarches may team up? People are claiming Vulkan will take it easily, but will he if, for example, Sanguinius, Dorn and Lion gang up on him. If they do, then what happens afterwards?

All 19 others could gang up on Vulkan - incinerate him and he'll just keep coming back. He's a perpetual and cannot die. He literally goes through life playing in God Mode. It's the fundamental problem with the challenge.

He's a perpetual, he comes back from nearly everything but he can still die as all perpetuals can. Magnus could probably find a way to kill him with his warp fuckery.

I don't know, the Warp failed to kill a single space marine captain even after a couple hundred years of his grey knight butt wandering around screwing it up. Add to it the slow trickle of normal space marines that keep getting stuck in it and fighting their way out *cough*ultramarines*cough*, 'F him up with the warp' doesn't seem like much of a threat.

regardless perpetuals can die. look at the Emperor, he must be a perpetual as all the Primarchs gifts come from him, (unless Vulkans perpetualness comes from a mutation, which I doubt) and he was brought close to death, plus its in the lore that its possible to kill Vulkan

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
regardless perpetuals can die. look at the Emperor, he must be a perpetual as all the Primarchs gifts come from him, (unless Vulkans perpetualness comes from a mutation, which I doubt) and he was brought close to death, plus its in the lore that its possible to kill Vulkan

Perpetuals aren't a genetic modification or mutation, but 'a mutation' of the soul. A kind of mystic thing that occurs outside of the emperor. There is no evidence that the emperor is a perpetual himself.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Perpetuals aren't a genetic modification or mutation, but 'a mutation' of the soul. A kind of mystic thing that occurs outside of the emperor. There is no evidence that the emperor is a perpetual himself.

The Emperor is confirmed on several occasions to be a perpetual.

But the emperor never actually died. He has been in life suport for 10000 years. For him to resurrect as a perpetual he needs to die first.

 Galas wrote:
But the emperor never actually died. He has been in life suport for 10000 years. For him to resurrect as a perpetual he needs to die first.

It's because they don;t know exactly what will happen when he regens. If they unplug and let him die there's a chance that the chaos storm may go mental and by the time he regens it's pointless.

There is also a chance that when he dies he releases a phycic burst pretty much imploding the imperium in an instant.

Or nothing might happen and he just regens.

They essentially don;t wanna take the risk. They know he will regen but no one knows what will happen inbetween.

Oh yeah I know that. If the emperor go pops theres no stop. I was just saying that because other poster said the emperor "dying" and not resurrecting was an example of perpetuals being killed.

 Galas wrote:
Oh yeah I know that. If the emperor go pops theres no stop. I was just saying that because other poster said the emperor "dying" and not resurrecting was an example of perpetuals being killed.

ahh fair do's, The Vulkan being purpetual is a silly arguement, it's not his thing if he dies he resureccts outside the battle arena and loses. Vulkans special trait is that he is absurdly strong.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


In knowing who will win so he sits there and just watches fate unfold its Magnus.

I've not seen any indication that Magnus is any good at forseeing the future. He apparently didn't see it coming when his Legion was pumped full of mutations by Tzeentch or before Russ broke his back.

The lack of Fulgrim support is surprising to me - the dude is a perfect warrior and slayed many primarchs.

Russ is getting a lot of support but he should be getting a lot more - should easily be number 1 by a mile.

How the heck could Corax be lower on this list than Curze?

 Xenomancers wrote:
The lack of Fulgrim support is surprising to me - the dude is a perfect warrior and slayed many primarchs.

Russ is getting a lot of support but he should be getting a lot more - should easily be number 1 by a mile.

How the heck could Corax be lower on this list than Curze?

Russ’s record against other primarchs is actually kind of questionable, with about equal losses and victories iirc (someone tallied them earlier in the thread). Fulgrim is a strong contender if the conflict doesn’t derail into invincibility and psychic nuking, being a duelist without equal and having 1.5 Primarch kills by the end of the HH with only moderate Chaos assistance. Corax is lower than Curze because Curze is a psyker.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The lack of Fulgrim support is surprising to me - the dude is a perfect warrior and slayed many primarchs.

Russ is getting a lot of support but he should be getting a lot more - should easily be number 1 by a mile.

How the heck could Corax be lower on this list than Curze?

Well Curze has the most Primarch kills for killing Vulkan so many times, both in capture and running around on Maccrage, that I'll wager even Curze lost count. He's fought both the Lion and Sanguinious to a draw. Almost killed Rogal Dorn and Rogal Dorn''s mustache (or was it Ferrus? ) by clawing his face off. Corax himself flees when Curze comes for him at the drop site massacre. I'll give credit where it's due and say that Corax chose a cool paint scheme for his army and the jump pack theme is neat too.

I'll choose Curze over Corax not because he has a superior track record against Primarchs or because of his powerful precognition, I choose Curze simply because of fate. Curze won't die from his brothers, his death will be by the assassin sent by the Empster. That's his schtick.

I'm all in on Horus. You don't win the Hunger Games because you are the strongest. You win because you play the game. Tactics, combat, politics, you got to play them all or just get lucky.

When it comes to doing everything, Horus is your man. He wasn't named Warmaster for nothing.

 alextroy wrote:
I'm all in on Horus. You don't win the Hunger Games because you are the strongest. You win because you play the game. Tactics, combat, politics, you got to play them all or just get lucky.

When it comes to doing everything, Horus is your man. He wasn't named Warmaster for nothing.

I don't like the "fate" argument here. Curze is fated to die by M'Shen hands in the "main" timeline. This is not the main timeline, as that battle royale never happened. Sanguinius got the premonition that he was gonna die on Terra. By your argument, he therefore can't die in that battle royale. So now you've got two people that can't die but only one can survive.That thread takes place outside the main story, therefore its causality is not the same. Then comes the fact that every Primarch had a "fate", they just didn't have the precognition to foresee it. How can Lorgar bring forth the Heresy and the Battle of Calth if he dies in the Hunger Games ? Etc, etc

Vulkan, because he cheats and can't be killed.

I've enjoyed this thread, you guys are obviously much more learned in the ways of grimdark lore than my humble self. My vote goes to Magnus though. Even considering the other primarchs have varying degrees of natural psychic resistance, I feel he'd have enough raw power and plenty of tricks up his sleeve. The only way I see him losing is if he gets ganged up on.
If I was going to rules lawyer it, I'd consider Vulkan to be out once he's downed. (Doesn't he take significant time to come back to his senses? Also if he's been vaporised, doesn't he appear somewhere else in the galaxy?)
As for Curze, I dont know enough about his fate situation to comment on that.
Interesting read though.

Engrenages wrote:

I don't like the "fate" argument here. Curze is fated to die by M'Shen hands in the "main" timeline. This is not the main timeline, as that battle royale never happened. Sanguinius got the premonition that he was gonna die on Terra. By your argument, he therefore can't die in that battle royale. So now you've got two people that can't die but only one can survive.That thread takes place outside the main story, therefore its causality is not the same. Then comes the fact that every Primarch had a "fate", they just didn't have the precognition to foresee it. How can Lorgar bring forth the Heresy and the Battle of Calth if he dies in the Hunger Games ? Etc, etc

Fate in 40K isn't really a "this thing will definitely happen" thing anyway. It's why Farseers and other Psykers who scry the future are useful.

Curze could have died. He was just spared.

His precognitive abilities in a combat setting inconsistent as well so I wouldn't depend on them to win a battle royale.