Index/CA to Codex point differences Shadowseer -9
Troupe Master +11
Troupes -2 base, -3 with weapon
Death Jester -15 total
Solitaire -12
Skyweaver -5 base -10 with weapon
Voidweaver -0
Starweaver -0
Haywire Cannon +1
Midnight sorrow seems the strongest to me, with Frozen Stars also appealing to me simply by virtue of being the easiest to leverage. 5 Attacks per player + A troupe master to ensure those hits wound seems quite attractive.
Silent Shroad seems made to go alongside Dark Creed homunculi.
Dreaming Shadow seems useful for those strange people that play foot-quins with pistols, like a weird amalgam of fire dragons and dark eldar wyches.
Spite for transport fusions and veiled path for...dunno. Veiled Path seems the least openly useful, perhaps for character assassins/elite hunting? Against units that hit on 2's (Custodes, genestealers, Wyches, Characters) their trait is quite likely to come into effect, removing 1/5 of melee damage. Then the Shadowseer removes a further 1/3 or 1/4. Then invul negates a further 1/2.
A single attack at Str 4/5 that hits on 2's, assuming veiled path didn't roll a 1 on either dice, against a harlequin model in range of a shadowseer, Model has a 1/3 chance of missing (rolling a 1, or rolling the veiled number), 1/2 chance of wounding and a 1/2 chance of being saved. If I'm not being stupid that's a 17% chance of a wound going through for each hit. Not great, but not bad.
IMO the top 3 (in no order) are Midnight Sorrow, Soaring Spite, and Frozen Stars.
Midnight Sorrow[/b:] is just good for any type of TAC list, a few Troupes with melee, some Skyweavers, TM's, etc.. it will help you get to where you need to do both damage and survive.
[b]Soaring Spite: will be the Gunboat/Movement shooting army game play, if you like Starweavers, Voidweavers, and FP's a lot, this is the one for you.
Frozen Stars: Melee focus armies, 4+ Troupes, 2-3 Troupe Masters, all melee weapons, Solitaire and some Skyweavers. The +1 attack will make it so MSU melee armies are even stronger, a 6 man unit now will have 30 attacks, with a TM near that will be either 15 or 17 wound roles (Caress vs Embrace/Kiss) compare to. But the Skyweavers gaining an Extra attack is also nice b.c they are 2D weapons, easier to kill Primaris and a like.
I think a lot of it will depend on weapon rebalance and the other subfaction factors (stratagem trait relic etc) but at first glance I agree midnight sorrow and spite seem like the two strongest. If Harlequins go hard back into being a pure melee army, Stars might make some appearances, but the two defensive ones would need some serious Agents of Vect level shenanigans to pull them up into the conversation.
The fear one is just another "are you running a freakshow soup list" check, like it is with the Haemie Coven leadership one.
And the answer there is a horrible grin and "yyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessss" from me.
Soaring Spite, Midnight Sorrow and Frozen Stars are the winners for me. Since they're all good, whichever of these three has the most appealing trait + relic will be the one I run with.
The two big winners for me are Midnight sorrow, consolidate 6", and Soaring spite, flying units can advance and shoot pistols. Being able to consolidate 6" and fall back an additional D6" is going to really help tie up the enemy line. And with Soaring spite we can load up a starweaver with 6 fusion pistols, move 22" and still fire them 6" for a 28" threat range which is very nice. I have a feeling that nuero disruptions will be given a buff so this form may be really good with them too. An interesting note about Soaring Spite is that it says "models with this form that can fly" but currently there are no models in our army that can fly and use a pistol so does this mean a new unit or an ability that lets troops fly?
Frozen Star is interesting in that we already have so many attacks that we don't really need another. It might be really good with Skyweavers. I think I would take Midnight sorrow and Soaring Spite over this one always, which is sad.
I am surprised that there are no -1 to hit forms as that actually seems on theme for us but I guess GW has learned their lesson with Eldar.
lambsandlions wrote: The two big winners for me are Midnight sorrow, consolidate 6", and Soaring spite, flying units can advance and shoot pistols. Being able to consolidate 6" and fall back an additional D6" is going to really help tie up the enemy line. And with Soaring spite we can load up a starweaver with 6 fusion pistols, move 22" and still fire them 6" for a 28" threat range which is very nice. I have a feeling that nuero disruptions will be given a buff so this form may be really good with them too. An interesting note about Soaring Spite is that it says "models with this form that can fly" but currently there are no models in our army that can fly and use a pistol so does this mean a new unit or an ability that lets troops fly?
Frozen Star is interesting in that we already have so many attacks that we don't really need another. It might be really good with Skyweavers. I think I would take Midnight sorrow and Soaring Spite over this one always, which is sad.
I am surprised that there are no -1 to hit forms as that actually seems on theme for us but I guess GW has learned their lesson with Eldar.
Soaring Spite; Its for assault weapons also, Star/Sky/Void weavers can advance and shoot without -1 to hit with their Shuriken Cannons.
the_scotsman wrote: I think a lot of it will depend on weapon rebalance and the other subfaction factors (stratagem trait relic etc) but at first glance I agree midnight sorrow and spite seem like the two strongest. If Harlequins go hard back into being a pure melee army, Stars might make some appearances, but the two defensive ones would need some serious Agents of Vect level shenanigans to pull them up into the conversation.
The fear one is just another "are you running a freakshow soup list" check, like it is with the Haemie Coven leadership one.
And the answer there is a horrible grin and "yyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessss" from me.
I took a cursory glance through all the Aeldari stuff, and I came up with this, I'm at work so I may have missed something.
Asuryani
Horrify/ -1 leadership
Hemlock/ -2 leadership
Honorable mention: Mind war/ MWs in a leadership contest
Drukhari
The Dark Creed/ -3 leadership
Mantle of Agony/ -1 leadership
Phantasm Grenade Launcher/ -1 leadership
Harlequins
Silent Shroud/ -1
Also according to the warhammer community post Death Jester can reduce the leadership.
So if the Death Jester reduces it by 1 it'll be a -10 to leadership. Can Leadership go negative?
You could even make the Asuryani detachment Ynnari, and use the visarch for another -1 to leadership though really I'm not sure why you would.
Thanks, so really not much of a point to even go to -10. Still, with mind war and hallucinogen launchers, at - 10 leadership you could do a lot of damage before you even got into models fleeing. Of course some armies have ways to ignore morale losses, and everyone can spend 2 cp to auto pass but you could burn a lot of an opponents cp like that
I'm really hoping the Shadowseer gets some substantial buffs; even with the -1 wound aura and grenade launcher she feels substantially worse than the cheaper Farseer. Getting two psychic power choices and Phantasmancy spells that provide utility for mixed Eldar lists would be huge.
Burnage wrote: I'm really hoping the Shadowseer gets some substantial buffs; even with the -1 wound aura and grenade launcher she feels substantially worse than the cheaper Farseer. Getting two psychic power choices and Phantasmancy spells that provide utility for mixed Eldar lists would be huge.
IDK i think its 100% worth it was is and i play with 2 each game, i dont feel they are worst at all than a Farseer, just played differently.
For my playstyle, I'm keen on Midnight Sorrow, Frozen Stars and Dreaming Shadow. Soaring Spite is fantastic, but the benefit realistically lasts for the first turn only; after that, you're engaged in combat and rarely advancing much more beyond that as you're already in the backfield and can usually get off Pistol shots without the need to fire. In addition, smart opponents will remove the closest models to make the charges all the more difficult to get off and the goal with any of these Forms is to get into close combat.
While many here deride Dreaming Shadow, I see some cool benefits out of it. I really enjoyed fielding Heel-equin lists of 10 models per Troupe. Knowing I only lose one model from fleeing is comforting. Fielding 3-4 10- strong units that are blitzing up to the lines makes target prioritization all the more difficult for the opponent. Couple that with the occasional ability to take potshots w/ pistols - especially on Overwatch - as I advance in is pretty sweet. Situate the rear models in the unit so they're within 3" of vehicles I don't care to charge right now and get off the occasional buffed Fusion Pistol attack would be pretty cool. Although we'll need to know if you take into consideration the fact the unit Advanced or not. Another benefit comes when you have the unit embarked on a Starweaver that just got destroyed. Disembark 3" closer to a target to get all the more w/in Fusion Melta range, then any 1s you happen to roll could still pay off for you as they leave the field. Pretty slick option there.
Midnight Sorrow, though, is just fantastically good. I was disappointed the Masque I selected from the last codex (The Dance Without End) didn't get its own write-up, but I suppose I have more flexibility now to pick what I like from the Forms provided.
Silent Shroud stratagem is nothing short of amazing, ignoring the overwatch of a unit with lots of flamers etc is well worth 2CP for our fragile Troupes.
Soaring Spite also seem to be blessed with an excellent stratagem alongside their trait, and for only 1CP, when the exact same stratagem is 2CP for the Cult of Red Grief. They're looking like the overall winner so far, but let's wait for the Frozen Stars/Midnight Sorrow stratagem/trait/relic.
Khaine wrote: Silent Shroud stratagem is nothing short of amazing, ignoring the overwatch of a unit with lots of flamers etc is well worth 2CP for our fragile Troupes.
Soaring Spite also seem to be blessed with an excellent stratagem alongside their trait, and for only 1CP, when the exact same stratagem is 2CP for the Cult of Red Grief. They're looking like the overall winner so far, but let's wait for the Frozen Stars/Midnight Sorrow stratagem/trait/relic.
I was hoping that we would get a way to ignore overwatch but I am sad to hear it is masque locked. We really need it as right now we almost auto lose to tau overwatch. Jumping back into a starweaver might be nice. Most the time if the starweaver is still alive it will eat overwatch and be right next to your troupes.
Sad to see we are most likely not getting any new units. We really need something else.
I'm pretty sad to see the Starweaver's cost stayed the same.
Naked Harlies are still completely useless. You're paying 13pts base + 16.5pts for a spot in a Starweaver, so almost 30pts. Adding a 6pts weapon will always be cost efficient. And since there doesn't seem to be anything that helps foot harlies, the Starweaver is still mandatory.
Haywire cannons went slightly up, and neuro-disruptors stayed the same. So they should have a vastly different profile now. We'll have to wait and see.
Solitaire going down 12pts was expected, but really not what I was hoping for. It's a 1-per-army mini, supposed to be a killing machine. It should be more than a 100pts model with just a movement trick.
DJ going down 15pts and the hint that the special rule reduces leadership makes me fear it's just that: a slight change to the special rule so it isn't 100% useless (but mostly is outside of freakshow lists), and a lowered point cost to make it almost fieldable. I fear it didn't get a proper redesign (but hopefully I'm wrong here).
So far it looks like the codex is just a few point drops, with some not-so-inventive Masque Forms and stratagems slapped on top. It's what most armies got, but after the DE codex I was really hoping for something more.
Maybe there are still some hidden gems we haven't seen, but so far it looks pretty bland to me.
One thing to remember is the masque forms are a straight line buff for Harlequins. Harlequins are far from the worst army out there already and the leaked stratagems are VERY powerful. A pure harlequins army could easily field two battalions without losing any effectiveness and I expect we'll have a LOT of CP to work with.
I'm hoping for some improvements to statlines, we'll see. Solitaires especially.
darkarchonlord wrote: One thing to remember is the masque forms are a straight line buff for Harlequins. Harlequins are far from the worst army out there already and the leaked stratagems are VERY powerful. A pure harlequins army could easily field two battalions without losing any effectiveness and I expect we'll have a LOT of CP to work with.
I'm hoping for some improvements to statlines, we'll see. Solitaires especially.
Solitaire's are already good and now that they are cheaper thats insane. 98pts total for them with traits, i wish i could have 3 lol.
darkarchonlord wrote: One thing to remember is the masque forms are a straight line buff for Harlequins. Harlequins are far from the worst army out there already and the leaked stratagems are VERY powerful. A pure harlequins army could easily field two battalions without losing any effectiveness and I expect we'll have a LOT of CP to work with.
I'm hoping for some improvements to statlines, we'll see. Solitaires especially.
Solitaire's are already good and now that they are cheaper thats insane. 98pts total for them with traits, i wish i could have 3 lol.
Perhaps in a vacuum, they are good, but in practice I find them underwhelming. In order to truly be terrifying, I'd say they need the ability to avoid overwatch, and reroll their own failed hit attempts. The 3++ is nice, but they are still only T3, and multi wounds will wreck then.
darkarchonlord wrote: One thing to remember is the masque forms are a straight line buff for Harlequins. Harlequins are far from the worst army out there already and the leaked stratagems are VERY powerful. A pure harlequins army could easily field two battalions without losing any effectiveness and I expect we'll have a LOT of CP to work with.
I'm hoping for some improvements to statlines, we'll see. Solitaires especially.
Solitaire's are already good and now that they are cheaper thats insane. 98pts total for them with traits, i wish i could have 3 lol.
I don't understand. How do you use it?
The solitaire disappoints me every time I play it.
Its only trick is to be able to get past enemy lines and charge a lone character, but it doesn't have the power to kill one. Each time I tried that, I successfully charged the character I wanted, only to see the Solitaire completely fail at doing any real damage, and get destroyed on the following turn (or even when the character fights back).
Math tells you it can't kill a space marine character, and usually not even a cryptek.
The only good way to use it I could find is to actually charge a heavy weapon/devastator squad in the back, but it takes at least a couple turns to get there, and shuricannons are usually okay at this job.
This one-per-army murder machine has a lower damage output than two basic infantry model. That just doesn't make any sense.
You dont need it to kill all character and you dont need to charge character all the time, it being able to fit anywhere is the key to the solitaire, its a sneak assassin. I go after Artillery, Havoc's and such, Tau drone units you can't reach well, or those Broadsidess. its easy to hide him out of LoS to stop overwatch, and you can fallback + charge again at something else if you needed too.
I try to have him kinda close to my Skyweavers as well, he will normally get 3-4 wounds through and i try to not charge T6+ units.
Against SM sure he might not kill a character, go after something else, against Guard, CWE or Daemons, something with T3 characters he is even better against. He wont be great against everything, its about picking the fights and timing the attacks.
Edit: PS: I almost never charge him turn 1, i rather wait a turn and set up a much better option to do huge damage rather than some damage and get no where.
Some excellent tricks for a Soaring Spite warlord.
Two Phantasmancy powers for the Shadowseer is a must! Definitely a must needed buff. Two different -1 to hit powers is pretty good as well.
Re-roll charge Warlord Trait has my eye.
I also like the "Chapter Master" upgrade stratagem. Re-roll hits of 1 aura is tempting to go along w/ re-roll all wound rolls.
The relics are meh - but fun. The Soaring Spite relic has some utility though.
Stratagems are shaping up to be pretty useful. I imagine using Lightning Fast Reactions, Prismatic Blur, and Isha's Weeping every turn for every game. At 1 CP (LFR is actually 2CP) each you can spread those defensive buffs around.
Eh, the -1 powers are situational to me: Fog of Dreams (WC7) Only works on one enemy unit Veil of Tears (WC7) Only works on one friendly unit So in the best of circumstances, one Troupe can be a -1 across the board and a -2 against one specific unit. Veil is definitely superior to Fog though. Although, they both work in shooting and melee, so that makes them a bit better.
mokoshkana wrote: Eh, the -1 powers are situational to me:
Fog of Dreams (WC7) Only works on one enemy unit
Veil of Tears (WC7) Only works on one friendly unit
So in the best of circumstances, one Troupe can be a -1 across the board and a -2 against one specific unit. Veil is definitely superior to Fog though. Although, they both work in shooting and melee, so that makes them a bit better.
.. and can then pop Lightning Fast Reactions for an additional -1 to hit. All our bikes and transports have a native -1 to hit as well. Viel only targets Infantry, but the bikes and transports can benefit from Fog.
So Soaring Spite can back a turn 1 Skyweaver charge up with a supporting warlord now? For instance a Shadowseer projecting a -1 to wound and FNP aura?
And when the opponent tries backing up from those Skyweavers the next turn they either eat a volley of Shuriken and Star-Bolas fire or the cannons and on-board pistols of your supporting Starweaver?
Two Phantasmancy powers for the Shadowseer is a must! Definitely a must needed buff. Two different -1 to hit powers is pretty good as well.
Re-roll charge Warlord Trait has my eye.
I also like the "Chapter Master" upgrade stratagem. Re-roll hits of 1 aura is tempting to go along w/ re-roll all wound rolls.
The relics are meh - but fun. The Soaring Spite relic has some utility though.
Stratagems are shaping up to be pretty useful. I imagine using Lightning Fast Reactions, Prismatic Blur, and Isha's Weeping every turn for every game. At 1 CP (LFR is actually 2CP) each you can spread those defensive buffs around.
Completely agree with this, the 2 Powers will just be amazing, TM Upgrade as well. These 2 things already made me happy. The relics are neat and the large number of attacks shooting ones will have help from a leaked stratagem that lets them hit more times, so i could see a pseudo sniper character being viable , the stratagem is "Use this stratagem in your shooting phases. Select a Dreaming shadow character from your army. Until the end of this phases, each successful hit roll made cuases 2 hits, a hit roll of 6+ cuases 3 hits instead", so Crescendo might be worth it if you roll a 5 or 6 on the hits. But ersonally i cant wait to see the rest of the WL traits and Relics.
Its shaping up to be nice, the ability to have 2 -1 to hits is going to help as well.
mokoshkana wrote: Eh, the -1 powers are situational to me:
Fog of Dreams (WC7) Only works on one enemy unit
Veil of Tears (WC7) Only works on one friendly unit
So in the best of circumstances, one Troupe can be a -1 across the board and a -2 against one specific unit. Veil is definitely superior to Fog though. Although, they both work in shooting and melee, so that makes them a bit better.
.. and can then pop Lightning Fast Reactions for an additional -1 to hit. All our bikes and transports have a native -1 to hit as well. Viel only targets Infantry, but the bikes and transports can benefit from Fog.
Fog only works on Infantry.
Lithanial wrote: So Soaring Spite can back a turn 1 Skyweaver charge up with a supporting warlord now? For instance a Shadowseer projecting a -1 to wound and FNP aura?
And when the opponent tries backing up from those Skyweavers the next turn they either eat a volley of Shuriken and Star-Bolas fire or the cannons and on-board pistols of your supporting Starweaver?
That's a little bit crazy.
The -1 to wound only works on infantry.
Troupes in Starweavers can't use the shoot-after-fallback stratagem. They're not on the battlefield, so the unit falling back isn't falling back from them. And they can't be targeted by an ability anyway (unless it specifically says it affects units in transports).
Heroes' Path could be really useful for slingshotting a transport up the board. You can advance the transport then set up the Shadowseer 3" behind it to cast twilight pathways. The fact that the 3 characters don't have to end up together, only start together, gives a ton of options.
How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.
rollawaythestone wrote: How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.
Im still taking 1 Battalion, the only thing that changed for me is i might add a DJ or 2 and another Skyweaver for 4 instead of 3. I only play with 3 Troupe units normally.
But i am wanting to try a more aggressive troupe list now with with Midnight Sorrow or Frozen Stars, and i want to try a Soaring Spite list with 4-6 units of FP Troupes, no melee weapons and no Void/Skyweavers
rollawaythestone wrote: How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.
Troupes with embraces and fusions. A couple troupe masters, and a shadowseer to twilight pathway a Starweaver T1. Then I add models I like but think are pretty bad (i.e. all the other entries).
The Shadowseer got a lot better. Cheaper, and now with two powers. The 6+++ is great all the time, and the -1 to hit will also be used every turn once the troupes get out of the weavers. So I'll probably run two.
The troupe master is getting more expensive, and I suspect it will have the same profile. But unless the melee weapon changed (and that's pretty unlikely), it will still be mandatory to do any real damage to T4+ units in the fight phase.
And then there are the big unknowns: the DJ got cheaper, and it's hinted that its ability changed (although I suspect it's just a -1Ld on top of its current ability), the neuro-disruptor has to be different, so it might become useful, the haywire cannon is also probably different too, and will affect whether or not Skyweavers are any good (but if haywire cannons are good and glaives got a buff, they could be). I still hope the Voidweaver got a massive boost like "shoot twice if moved less than half its movement" or something.
So basically, it's still too early to tell, but the Shadowseer seems like a big winner.
I quite like the idea of silent shroud as part of an eldar soup army. Dropping people's LD is excellent fun and a great approach for dealing with stuff like plaguebearers. They gain models if they roll a 1, which they're a lot less likely to do here.
It does bring up the question of what happens when the PBs have an ability to roll 2 and pick the lowest, but they are forced to roll 2 and pick the highest. The logical thing would be for them to cancel out.
Midnight Sorrow aka if you ever wanted to play tyranid elves.
The troupe master is getting more expensive, and I suspect it will have the same profile. But unless the melee weapon changed (and that's pretty unlikely), it will still be mandatory to do any real damage to T4+ units in the fight phase.
He can use Great Harlequin stratagem. And surely there probably be some more toys in Black Library. Ahriman yet to steal our gak.
Also I think people underestimate TM, he is same as Autarch in price but has more attacks, awesome aura, crescendo, flip belt, can have fusion pistol, kiss, etc.
The Troupe master is indeed very good. His damage/points is a bit lower than troupers (he's roughly 1.5 troupers in melee, and slightly better than a single one at shooting), but a lot more survivable per point, and the aura makes everyone much much better.
The point increase (assuming everything stays the same) is appropriate if you consider troupers to be fairly costed. But I think the increase is too high, because Harlies really need this aura to function in melee. If troupers had access to S6 weapons, or weapons that wound on a fix number, or a pistol that always wounds on 2s with good AP and decent damage (that's actually possible), then it could be fair.
A Troupe master + 5 players has the same point cost than before the codex (assuming you're taking melee weapons).
rollawaythestone wrote: How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.
I like to go heavy on troops, 5 or 6 all in starweavers plus some skyweavers, this is at 2k... I agree that TM is essential to good troops performance, I always take at least 2... going for two battalions will most certainly mean you'll have to drop either skyweavers or characters other than troop masters from the list...
These spoilers is also making me wonder about foot Harlies. The naked ones are only 13 points and once you account for stratagems they can be about as tough as marines.
2 squads of 10 with 2 shadowseers, each with a few naked ones as ablative wounds.
One squad gets the quicken power for 16+4d6 for an average of 30in should get a charge off somewhere. The other squad advances and gets lightning reflexes, -1 to hit power and the 3++ stratagem after advancing gives them -2 to hit, effectively t4 , a 3++ and maybe even a 6++. Actually quite sturdy.
If they make it they hit way harder than the mounted ones and likely for similar points. They do way worse with fusion pistols though
Frowny wrote: These spoilers is also making me wonder about foot Harlies. The naked ones are only 13 points and once you account for stratagems they can be about as tough as marines.
2 squads of 10 with 2 shadowseers, each with a few naked ones as ablative wounds.
One squad gets the quicken power for 16+4d6 for an average of 30in should get a charge off somewhere. The other squad advances and gets lightning reflexes, -1 to hit power and the 3++ stratagem after advancing gives them -2 to hit, effectively t4 , a 3++ and maybe even a 6++. Actually quite sturdy.
If they make it they hit way harder than the mounted ones and likely for similar points. They do way worse with fusion pistols though
Yes, you just have to hope you go first. If you go second the two squads can be completely wiped out before doing anything.
But it's going to be a fun thing to try.
Really excited about soaring spite, a star Weaver moving 28" and then shooting fusion pistols another 6" is going to be great. Having a shadowsun pop out and use her powers will also be great. Really looking forward to seeing all the powers, relics and stratgem.
Also, give me a reason to glue a Voidweaver together instead of Starweavers only!
well, I hope they make prismatic cannons assault not heavy and give some more stratagems voidweavers in squads may benefit from... like Cegorach's jest which may work well for a squad of 3
Welp, I played a test game today using the new points, old rules, and the trait/stratagem for Silent Shroud as well as the new strats and...damn, I'm impressed.
enemy army was a semi-competitive space marine deal, Salamanders with 5 dual assault cannon razors, 5 double-plasma tactical squads, captain with chapter master upgrade, lieutenant, 3 lascannon/autocannon predators, and a bunch of scout bikers. I played a freakshow list with small alaitoc eldar detachments (just to get a farseer and hemlock) and a small Black Heart detachment (to get CPs and agents of vect) and after that it was all harlequins. Troupe master, shadowseer, 2 troupes in weavers (1 kiss troupe 1 embrace troupe each with a couple fusion guns), 6 starweavers, 2 death jesters and a solitaire.
The one thing that really amazed me is just the sheer amount of stuff we can do during the enemy's turn. I lost turn 1, immediately used Heroes Path on a trio of characters. he positioned to focus fire on my harlequin stuff with two killshot predators and 3 assault cannon razorbacks, I used lightning reflexes on my big bike squad and the preds were suddenly hitting on 5s while the razorbacks hit on 6s, and then everything was -1 to wound from the shadowseer - next to nothing died.
Its just insane how much you can deny enemy attempts to do the smart thing and focus their fire. Then on my turn, twilight pathways the bikes right into the middle of everything, burn the silent shroud stratagem, and basically all the clowns and the solitaire get in with no overwatch and blow away the whole flank.
It really pleases me to see an army where I'm not just evaluating the power of their turn 1 alpha stike - I'm super impressed by their ability to shrug off an alpha strike and respond. You can make a few units REALLY REALLY hard to deal with as the harlequins.
the_scotsman wrote: and then everything was -1 to wound from the shadowseer - next to nothing died.
I don't get it. Turn 1 your troupes should be in the weavers, and characters usually not the closest so not tragetable. So he -1 to wound shouldn't do much…
Its just insane how much you can deny enemy attempts to do the smart thing and focus their fire. Then on my turn, twilight pathways the bikes right into the middle of everything, burn the silent shroud stratagem, and basically all the clowns and the solitaire get in with no overwatch and blow away the whole flank. .
What was the size of your table? And did the shooty space marine guy somehow deployed in the front and moved forward?
With twilight pathways you can indeed slingshot a unit forward (although with the shadowseer out of the transport you loose a good 4" minimum), but you shouldn't be able to put many things if anything in melee T1. Or maybe I didn't understand and that wasn't on your 1st turn. But then I'm surprised your list was able to withstand that much firepower for two turns.
What was in he Black Heart detachment? You mention CPs, so was it a battalion?
the_scotsman wrote: and then everything was -1 to wound from the shadowseer - next to nothing died.
I don't get it. Turn 1 your troupes should be in the weavers, and characters usually not the closest so not tragetable. So he -1 to wound shouldn't do much…
Its just insane how much you can deny enemy attempts to do the smart thing and focus their fire. Then on my turn, twilight pathways the bikes right into the middle of everything, burn the silent shroud stratagem, and basically all the clowns and the solitaire get in with no overwatch and blow away the whole flank. .
What was the size of your table? And did the shooty space marine guy somehow deployed in the front and moved forward?
With twilight pathways you can indeed slingshot a unit forward (although with the shadowseer out of the transport you loose a good 4" minimum), but you shouldn't be able to put many things if anything in melee T1. Or maybe I didn't understand and that wasn't on your 1st turn. But then I'm surprised your list was able to withstand that much firepower for two turns.
What was in he Black Heart detachment? You mention CPs, so was it a battalion?
I was slightly mixed up - the -1 to hit and to wound only happened turn 2, when my troupe was getting shot at and did pretty incredibly well. Turn 1, what happened was I had my bikes sitting in a large ruin on one flank, with both starweavers stacked behind the wall of the ruin. This prevented line of sight to the starweavers from all but one of his predators, which had to move in order to gain sight. I had no way to gain drop advantage on him (he had minimum 10 I had 11) so I dropped all my characters out of the transports to force him to deploy basically his whole army before my transports went down.
He moved a razorback around the corner to get an additional shot on where the starweavers were, which was about 20" away from the starweavers. his hope was to kill the starweaver with the pred and the occupants with the razorback. I used lightning reactions on the starweaver (since it was on the leaked stratagem page for the harlequins) when he opened up with the predator, and pretty much everything missed (-1 for moving, -2 from the weaver, +1 from killshot, so still on 5s.) He caused 3 damage, and the razorback caused 2 hitting on 6s. On my turn, the harlequins advanced out of their transport, moving 15" and making an easy charge to get to the razorback, which I had tagged with one of my overwatch-ignoring bikers, engaging the predator with the bulk of the bike squad to kill it.
my drukhari detachment was 2 archons with blaster, 3 5-man kab squads 1 blaster 2 shredders, and 2 raiders. Raiders both lived turn 1 (he didnt want to shoot lascannons into invuln saves, so he tried shooting the lascannons at the Hemlock, doing enough damage to bracket but not kill it).
Firepower dilution by blocking up long range firelanes was pretty much how I survived turn 1 no problem. Turn 2, I'd killed one Razor with lances, one with clowns in melee, and damaged another with miscellaneous shooting. Shredders and splinter fire took care of scout bikes.Turn 2, both raiders died, the hemlock died, the now-empty starweaver got finished off, and a bunch of fire went into the harlequin kiss troupe, but my overall melee pressure was pretty high at that point and I saved 2CP for one more big engage with the bikes.
Codex reviews are up! A few people have posted videos of the complete codex and I am pretty pleased. Overall we have gotten a nice buff to our army. It is a little sad that we have no new units and the units that needed help are still not that great (looking at you voidweavers and deathjesters)
The unit that really masque and strategy that really stands out to me is Soaring Spite. Advance and firing fusion pistols and all guns at full BS is a winner. Their warlord trait to jump out after the vehicle has moved is a great for a shadowseer and their relic to move and additional 6" in a starweaver is great for a troupemaster. I can really see a skyweaver with 5 players and a troupe master all with fusion pistols moving 28" into the enemy and use prismatic blur for a 3+ invul, then when targeted using lightning fast reflexes for -2 to hit. This puts a huge target right in the center of the opponents forces and your crew inside is ready to pop out next turn (and get back in later that turn).
Solitaires are finally the character killers with Cegorach's rose letting their kiss do 3D and letting them re-roll wounds. There is a stratagem that also buffs the character by +2s and +2A if they take a wound in overwatch.
I really don't know how I feel about skyweavers. They feel like they really lack the bite that shining spears have. I am considering adding a ynnari battalion with craftworld eldar. We really want rangers for board control and shinning spears complement our playstyle so well, plus the extra CP.
Did anything change about the Voidweaver?
Dit they at least change the 'heavy' on the gun? I can't understand how they thought that was a good idea in the first place.
Stratagems and relics are nice, but the units are basically still the same.
Voidweavers are still trash. DJ pretty bad too, maybe they're ok with the relic (I'm having a hard time getting the correct profile).
Skyweavers still have 3 attacks and the damage output of a malnourished infant, so they're just expensive chaff you use to tie things up.
Neuro-disruptors are apparently the same. This is just insane.
So it looks like Harlies are still codex: fusion pistols and embraces. Now with a few more tricks.
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Mayk0l wrote: Did anything change about the Voidweaver?
Dit they at least change the 'heavy' on the gun? I can't understand how they thought that was a good idea in the first place.
Yes, the cannon is now assault. But that's the only change, so it still sucks.
Mayk0l wrote: Did anything change about the Voidweaver?
Dit they at least change the 'heavy' on the gun? I can't understand how they thought that was a good idea in the first place.
Yes, they changed both the prismatic cannon and the haywire cannon to be assault.
I quite like the idea of making a Shadowseer belong to Dreaming Shadow, adding Crescendo and letting loose with "An Example Made" to completely blend a unit with psychics, shuriken and mutliple Phantasm Grenade Launcher hits.
Good idea with the shadowseer, that does seem like a potentially huge amount of damage coming out a single model and when in a hq vs hq situation it'd probably shred him.
You know I kind of like skyweavers better than shining Spears.
The big thing with the bike alpha is that they hit tanks with shooting, then they charge chaff. A Max haywire bike squad does 3x the damage with their shooting against vehicles than a Max squad of spears, then they do 9 wounds against GEQ vs 12 out of the spears.
Sure if you get into tanks or meq with spears they're vastly superior, but the odds that the enemy just keeps hurling chaff into you to stop you from charging are very high, and skyweavers don't have that problem.
So like we always do, let's discuss weapon loadouts for our troupes and what the optimal weapons choices are.
I feel embraces and caresses are still the only good close combat weapons. As they are one point apart I think I like the caress better for most targets. But do we want to equip a unit with all caresses or do we want to take a couple players without a weapon to act as additional wounds? How about fusion pistols? I feel like I want 5 fusion pistols and a troupe master with fusion pistols in one of my soaring spite skyweavers, but for the other two skyweavers I might only want 3.
I am thinking I want something like
1 troupe master with caress and fusion and 5 players with fusion and pistols
1 shadowsun and 3 players with fusion and embrace and 2 naked players
1 solitaire with cegorach's Rose and 3 players with fusion and embrace and 2 naked players
And I am wondering if solitaires are worth it or would be be better off with another shadowsun.
I can't see myself taking voidweavers or skyweavers or death jesters
But spears can actually charge high T targets and actually do some damage. I played custodes and IG last night and watched my bikes do nothing because S4 is hot garbage.
mokoshkana wrote: But spears can actually charge high T targets and actually do some damage. I played custodes and IG last night and watched my bikes do nothing because S4 is hot garbage.
This is how I feel. Skyweavers just have no bite at all. They really needed an ability were they get more strength and attacks on the charge. 2D is great but S4 ap-2 just does so little to get that damage through.
Shining Spears just chew through so much. If we are worried about smaller targets maybe reaver jetbikes are better. I think harlequins need an elder or dark eldar battalion for CP and to round out our limited choices.
Overall, it is a pretty narrow gap between the guns against any target that isn't a vehicle. If you can spare the 30 points to bump the guns to Haywire, it may be worth it for the substantial anti-vehicle boost. If your meta consists of T8 MC's (such as Exocrines) you may still favor the Shurikens, though will probably do the same with either option (tie up the target til Fusion Pistols close in)
I started collecting Harlequins this edition when the Indexs were released. I have amast a good collection of Quins over the past few months and I can not wait for the Codex to drop properly.
I currently have my 1st 1250pt game organised for 2 weeks time and I am excited to say that I will be "Batreping" this game for my Youtube as well.
I only tried Index quins 4-5 times this edition so my knowledge on them isn't that great going into the Codex. I currently own;
3 harlequin troups
1 crimson hunter (Craftworld)
6 skyweavers
3 death jesters
3 shadowseer
1 solitaire
3 starweavers
1 voidweaver.
From what I have listed what is a good 1250pt list I can make with the new Masques and Codex? I am pretty much a noob so any help and support would be appreciated
Can't wait to start preforming for the Laughing God.
Burnage wrote: Skyweavers look like Haywire Cannon platforms to me now. They're like a faster, more durable unit of Scourges.
Agreed. The firepower of two with Haywire Cannons & Zephyr Glaives is not that dissimilar from Haywire Scourges, and they're faster, more resilient and offer a bit of combat punch. All for just 10 points more. Given scourges are basically stuck coming down turn two with the beta deep strike rules, I think I favour the Skyweavers overall.
If you're using them for alpha strike charges, you're not getting as much value as the faster/cheaper Reavers, or the hitting power of Shining Spears. I think the above is their niche.
I started collecting Harlequins this edition when the Indexs were released. I have amast a good collection of Quins over the past few months and I can not wait for the Codex to drop properly.
I currently have my 1st 1250pt game organised for 2 weeks time and I am excited to say that I will be "Batreping" this game for my Youtube as well.
I only tried Index quins 4-5 times this edition so my knowledge on them isn't that great going into the Codex. I currently own; 3 harlequin troups 1 crimson hunter (Craftworld) 6 skyweavers 3 death jesters 3 shadowseer 1 solitaire 3 starweavers 1 voidweaver.
From what I have listed what is a good 1250pt list I can make with the new Masques and Codex? I am pretty much a noob so any help and support would be appreciated
Can't wait to start preforming for the Laughing God.
You have enough to play Harlequins dont worry, just get the codex and play games. Dont worry to much right now about what is good or not if you are new, find what you like and how you like to play then you'll know what to play with more often and build/paint/buy.
Burnage wrote: Skyweavers look like Haywire Cannon platforms to me now. They're like a faster, more durable unit of Scourges.
Agreed. The firepower of two with Haywire Cannons & Zephyr Glaives is not that dissimilar from Haywire Scourges, and they're faster, more resilient and offer a bit of combat punch. All for just 10 points more. Given scourges are basically stuck coming down turn two with the beta deep strike rules, I think I favour the Skyweavers overall.
If you're using them for alpha strike charges, you're not getting as much value as the faster/cheaper Reavers, or the hitting power of Shining Spears. I think the above is their niche.
I'm at the point that i'm thinking about taking off my Shuriken for HWC's.. hmm but IDK. For pure its going to be hard to balance shuriken with FP's and HWC's, you dont want to much weapons that re focus on tanks, but at the same time if its your only unit and they are a tank army theyw ill be target 1, etc...
Also with Soup, DE with BH Spearhead 3 Ravagers/Archon with re-rolls is 500pts, at the same time a Warlock/Farseer and 2 Fire Prisms is also about 500pts. Each are good for Harlequins with long range Anti-support, while DE is more mobile with full damage, the FP's are just as strong but now you have CWE powers as options, so do i really need HWC's if i have some FP's and allies? Or do i go HWC's to remove some FP's?
Curtainfall seems to be a very powerful relic. Alas it is locked behind a subpar masque. But it might still be worth it to squeeze a DJ with iTunes into the army. Because the weapons effect combos really well with stratagems and other effects and units. Double hits strat, phantasm launcher from the SS and more...
So i'm trying to figure out the best way to use "Hero's Path".
Being able to position both your Solitaire and Shadowseer in safe positions ready to attack on your opponents Turn 1 seems great, particularly when you bring your deny aura from the Shadowseer into place but i'm wondering if it can be pushed further by being able to do some damage with your characters Turn 1 and still get Hero's Path off. It looks like this might only be possible for Soaring Spite and it does cost 4 CP to do, but here goes....
Death Jester This guy is the real restriction on this maneuver as he is the slowest piece of the puzzle, acting as a hard cap on how far your Solitaire can go to engage in combat. The plan here is to Fire & Fade him forward for 1 CP after you disembark him from a Starweaver. This gives him 18" of movement without advancing so he will not lose any accuracy from his shots.
Shadow Seer Our first Soaring Spite requirement, this guy has to take the Soaring Spite warlord trait to be able to jump out of a Starweaver after it has advanced up the board. He needs to be within 6" of the Death Jester still for this to work but that is ample range to let all his damage reach deep into the enemy deployment zone. I'm liking the idea of Crescendo on this guy so that he has good anti-horde shots as well as good mortal wound output.
Solitaire Blitz should get him 22" up the board on foot, right up near where your Shadow Seer is. Depending on how deep your opponent has deployed you may want to Twilight Pathways him up a bit more to make the charge more reliable but the real trick comes here - your charge target must be within 12" of your Death Jester and again you need to be Soaring Spite. The reason? After combat you will be using your "Skystride" stratagem to consolidate 6" backwards towards your transports, bringing you back within 6" of your Death Jester to allow the use of Hero's Path.
For this reason, without advancing your Death Jester, the maximum depth you can engage to is 30" out from your deployment zone.
---
All a bit complicated and 4 CP is a bit steep, but you can land a good amount of damage and there is absolutely no chance of reprisal, since your characters just melt away to safety while also moving to good spots to counter how your opponents have moved.
It "can" be amazing b.c you can use it on your opponents turn. I see it as a turn 1 way to move your 3 guys in better positions and get the closer so you can have a free movement basically.
I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.
Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.
Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.
Lithanial wrote: I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.
Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.
Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.
Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.
Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.
Lithanial wrote: So i'm trying to figure out the best way to use "Hero's Path".
Being able to position both your Solitaire and Shadowseer in safe positions ready to attack on your opponents Turn 1 seems great, particularly when you bring your deny aura from the Shadowseer into place but i'm wondering if it can be pushed further by being able to do some damage with your characters Turn 1 and still get Hero's Path off. It looks like this might only be possible for Soaring Spite and it does cost 4 CP to do, but here goes....
I see it rather in your opponent's turn 1 (when you go second), so you see where he moves/deepstrikes and then place your characters wisely to get out of LoS/range or in aura/deny range or get in better position to start on your next turn... don't like the idea of burning 4 - 5 CP just to engage a solitair or shadowseer 30" ahead of troops on turn 1 - for this purpose put them in starweavers, fly/shoot FP and disembark turn 2 safely...
Lithanial wrote: I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.
Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.
Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.
Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.
Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.
Remember flip belts. Most folks still deploy/group their models in clusters. With a flip belt, you can easily jump over the front line and engage multiple models in that unit.
Lithanial wrote: I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.
Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.
Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.
Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.
Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.
Remember flip belts. Most folks still deploy/group their models in clusters. With a flip belt, you can easily jump over the front line and engage multiple models in that unit.
This is true, but just due to how geometry generally works, I think you'll struggle to get yourself within 1" of more than 2 models...at least, not often enough that I'd hard dedicate to this tactic in a competitive game.
Bear in mind in an uncompetitive game - you'll absolutely get people with this. I find that 90% of players are still locked into the "assault is autopilot" mentality left over from 7th, where they don't realize you have a CHOICE where to move your models in a charge move, you have a CHOICE whether to pile in and you have a CHOICE whether to consolidate. The only thing in the assault phase that isn't optional is that you must fight with all models within eligible range (1" of enemy model or within 1" of your model within 1").
But in a highly competitive game, you're committing 2 relatively high-WC powers off from a model that only gets 2, AND your relic, AND engaging a unit solo with your relatively squishy shadowseer, AND possibly committing 2CP before you know whether your opponent's going to be smart enough to juke the tactic, just to try and pull off a cool stunt.
Kind of reminds me of how in 7th the Solitaire had the "precision strikes" rule to let him pick a target on a 6 to hit and in one game, I happened to have an opponent who mispositioned the Commissar babysitting a 50-man conscript blob, I blitzed him, rolled several sixes for his attacks, and killed him alongside a couple of conscripts to sweep the remaining 43 models. Every game after that, I always kept that Precision Strikes rule in mind, looking for opportunities to do similar things, but it basically never made a difference again.
Lithanial wrote: I'm not 100% on the ruling for this one but this could very well be stupidly brutal.
Have a Shadowseer load himself up with Veil of Tears & use Fog of Dreams on his target before charging in. Add on Lightning Fast Reactions if you feel like it to get at max a -3 to hit him in assault. The fun part? Have him equipped with the "Suit of Hidden Knives" relic.... Laugh maniacally as half of the attacks against your Shadowseer proceed to kill their own people.
Bonus points if you can manage to wipe out the whole unit thanks to them having multiple attacks.
Sounds really powerful, but it can be defeated pretty easily by smart assault micro.
Piling in being optional, all I have to do is decide not to, and only 1-2 models will actually have to attack the shadowseer. I'm also very likely to remove models near the one the shadowseer got to btb with in order to stop her getting an effective consolidate. Then you've just burned a ton of resources on something that is unlikely to do much damage at all.
Remember flip belts. Most folks still deploy/group their models in clusters. With a flip belt, you can easily jump over the front line and engage multiple models in that unit.
This is true, but just due to how geometry generally works, I think you'll struggle to get yourself within 1" of more than 2 models...at least, not often enough that I'd hard dedicate to this tactic in a competitive game.
Bear in mind in an uncompetitive game - you'll absolutely get people with this. I find that 90% of players are still locked into the "assault is autopilot" mentality left over from 7th, where they don't realize you have a CHOICE where to move your models in a charge move, you have a CHOICE whether to pile in and you have a CHOICE whether to consolidate. The only thing in the assault phase that isn't optional is that you must fight with all models within eligible range (1" of enemy model or within 1" of your model within 1").
But in a highly competitive game, you're committing 2 relatively high-WC powers off from a model that only gets 2, AND your relic, AND engaging a unit solo with your relatively squishy shadowseer, AND possibly committing 2CP before you know whether your opponent's going to be smart enough to juke the tactic, just to try and pull off a cool stunt.
Kind of reminds me of how in 7th the Solitaire had the "precision strikes" rule to let him pick a target on a 6 to hit and in one game, I happened to have an opponent who mispositioned the Commissar babysitting a 50-man conscript blob, I blitzed him, rolled several sixes for his attacks, and killed him alongside a couple of conscripts to sweep the remaining 43 models. Every game after that, I always kept that Precision Strikes rule in mind, looking for opportunities to do similar things, but it basically never made a difference again.
Oh I absolutely agree this is not going to win major tournaments, but you could do some damage at smaller local events, and definitely in fun games. Also remember that Lightning Fast Reactions is used when the unit is targeted by a melee/shooting attack, and since targeting happens after pile in, there's no real chance of wasting it.
I actually think Dreaming Shadow is being underrated regarding the Commisar effect.
A Drop of x2 10 Harlequins that don't care about morale is something that has to be taken care of I would imagine. They'll be shot at and half will shoot back, or they get ignored and they make their way down while something else gets shot.
I at least think they need a second look. There's a lot of attractive options that's for sure.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I actually think Dreaming Shadow is being underrated regarding the Commisar effect.
A Drop of x2 10 Harlequins that don't care about morale is something that has to be taken care of I would imagine. They'll be shot at and half will shoot back, or they get ignored and they make their way down while something else gets shot.
I at least think they need a second look. There's a lot of attractive options that's for sure.
So those two squads either have to run up the board or come out of the webway via deepstrike. Armed with fusion pistols, the Dreaming Shadow trait will rarely matter because most will be dead before they get within 6 inches, and with respect to shuriken, the cheapest option is 13 points for a model that can do 1 S4 shot with AP3 on wound rolls of 6. I suppose a Patrol of a 12 man troupe fully kitted out and a Shadowseer casting Twilight Pathways could work, but trying to run an entire army of large squads won't be effective. That being the case, Soaring Sprite and Frozen Stars are just better options for me.
I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a batallion since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.
darkarchonlord wrote: I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a brigade since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.
Troops
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
Dedicated Transport
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
Total: 963pts +5CP
(Note the comment I replied to was deleted)
I think you mean battalion, not brigade. Also your points are off. Your current Troops should be 145 not 152, and your Troupe Master should be 86. So you're effectively 20 pts too high in your total.
darkarchonlord wrote: I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a brigade since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.
Troops
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
Dedicated Transport
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
Total: 963pts +5CP
(Note the comment I replied to was deleted)
I think this will be a very common core and is the backbone of my list. Put the talon relic on the troupe master to move 28" and have your shadowseer as the as the warlord to pop out of your 22" and cast powers.
After this point you can add dark eldar or eldar allies or just a different masque like vieled path or midnight sorrow.
I think any optimised battalion is going to want a foot-slog Troupe unit. Ironically it leads to a faster force compared to everything being mounted in a Starweaver as you can get a Troupe squad into combat a whole turn faster.
You support the foot unit with your Shadowseer so that you can buff them up and then send them in with Twilight Pathways. Using the guaranteed 6" advance move strategem, this simple move will catapult the unit 28" up the board which should give ample choice of charge targets and let them clear a big hole for your Starweaver squads to charge down turn 2. Again, Soaring Spite are probably best at this since you can also get your warlord in to support them.
Add to this that a large foot squad is probably the best target for the "Wardancers" that you could ask for and the potential for turn 1 damage gets a little crazy.
Lithanial wrote: I think any optimised battalion is going to want a foot-slog Troupe unit. Ironically it leads to a faster force compared to everything being mounted in a Starweaver as you can get a Troupe squad into combat a whole turn faster.
You support the foot unit with your Shadowseer so that you can buff them up and then send them in with Twilight Pathways. Using the guaranteed 6" advance move strategem, this simple move will catapult the unit 28" up the board which should give ample choice of charge targets and let them clear a big hole for your Starweaver squads to charge down turn 2. Again, Soaring Spite are probably best at this since you can also get your warlord in to support them.
Add to this that a large foot squad is probably the best target for the "Wardancers" that you could ask for and the potential for turn 1 damage gets a little crazy.
Only 1 Troupe can Twilight Pathways and what if you go 2nd? Now you have 15 T3 models on the table, any decent list will kill them all turn 1. AT least a starweaver give you a -1 to hit and +5T with 6 more wounds before your units dies. It will also give you +3" no matter what and you can still do what you are suggesting.
You only foot-slog one unit so the single Twilight Pathways isn't an issue. You are also vastly over-estimating a foot units fragility if you go second and they start getting shot within your deployment zone. Most anti-infantry weapons only truly kick in at 12-18" range so most fire at that range is more incidental rather than the really heavy weight of fire attacks. You will also be within your Shadowseer aura so vs a Starweaver squad you have the same amount of wounds, similar toughness thanks to the aura, no fragility to multi-wound weapons, same invulnerable save and no transport destruction casualties. The only thing you are missing is the -1 to hit.
You also have flip belts... use line of sight blockers when you deploy or you kind of have it coming.
Lithanial wrote: You only foot-slog one unit so the single Twilight Pathways isn't an issue. You are also vastly over-estimating a foot units fragility if you go second and they start getting shot within your deployment zone. Most anti-infantry weapons only truly kick in at 12-18" range so most fire at that range is more incidental rather than the really heavy weight of fire attacks. You will also be within your Shadowseer aura so vs a Starweaver squad you have the same amount of wounds, similar toughness thanks to the aura, no fragility to multi-wound weapons, same invulnerable save and no transport destruction casualties. The only thing you are missing is the -1 to hit.
You also have flip belts... use line of sight blockers when you deploy or you kind of have it coming.
Umm what? What game do you play? lol, no offense but most armies have and are taking 24-48" range anti infantry, like Mortars, Dark Reapers, ML's, SPlinter Cannons/Dis Cannons, HB's, Fire Warriors, Primaris marines, Missile Pods, etc.. i literally can name 50+ more weapons/units, WW's, Wyverns, Autocannons, Storm Bolters, and so much more.
But, i will agree that having 1 unit on foot can be worth it only b.c you can get them in units larger than 6 that way, also Transports give you +3" turn 1 no matter what anyways.
For comparison, to protect 4 Troupes and a character, assuming BS3 shooters:
6 Wounds of Starweaver Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required
Vulnerable to multi-damage. Average 1 additional casualty on destruction. 99 points for the Starweaver + minimum 13 for lost troupe on destruction.
8 Wounds of ablative Troupe in Shadowseer Aura Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required
Vulnerable to morale. 104 points for 8 basic troupes
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There are pro's and cons to both. Just wanted to illustrate that being outside of a Starweaver is not as bad as the initial knee-jerk thoughts tend to be.
You mean 5 Troupes and a character, it holds 6 and 5 is minimum for a unit.
Also those 48 S5 shots (HB's most likely) thats 16 HB's wasted shooting 1 vehicle that protected your 120+ point shredding unit. Remember something will die turn 1, make it what you want to die and not your Troupes.
So you are saying your Troupes are 104ps for 8? So you are taking 0 gear on them, i dont think they will do anything all game other than Tie up a unit, and Wyches are cheaper/better at that so you are literally wasting points on that Troupe unit.
Harlequins are good b.c they can do damage and get there while able to be where they want once they get there.
well, if he takes 5 kitted out and 7 ablative then he is delivering the same punch as 5 troupes in a starweaver (although the weaver can absorb overwatch a heck of a lot better) plus the attacks of the bare bones harlies.
I see what he is saying, 7 harlies is 91 pts (less than a starweaver) and is not as fragile as probably first believed (as long as the Shadowseer is close by). Downside is that the shadowseer is now kind of stranded (one thing I didn't like about the power)
Lithanial wrote: For comparison, to protect 4 Troupes and a character, assuming BS3 shooters:
6 Wounds of Starweaver Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required
Vulnerable to multi-damage. Average 1 additional casualty on destruction. 99 points for the Starweaver + minimum 13 for lost troupe on destruction.
8 Wounds of ablative Troupe in Shadowseer Aura Vs Str 3 = 72 shots required
Vs Str 4 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 5 = 48 shots required
Vs Str 6+ = 36 shots required
Vulnerable to morale. 104 points for 8 basic troupes
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There are pro's and cons to both. Just wanted to illustrate that being outside of a Starweaver is not as bad as the initial knee-jerk thoughts tend to be.
it is also worth noting that in most (not all, but most) matchups, anti tank firepower tends to be far longer range than anti-infantry firepower.
if you're up against a guard gunline and he gets turn 1, you'll get hit by three mortar teams for sure, which will kill 4 harlequins in SS aura, but odds are good you're not getting hit by any or many of the lasguns he's also relying on to do a lot of his anti infantry work, because they are only 24" range and guard gunlines tend not to start right on the deployment line against Harlequins. Smart ones, anyway. Meanwhile, your starweavers are almost certainly going to be in range of absolutely everything he brought to hurt tanks.
My issue with the foot harlies is that a starweaver on one wound does more than a troupe on one wound. That is to say if you damage a starweaver but don't kill it, it can still do its job, but if you kill halve of the troupes they will do very little in combat. Also you have to wonder what is more valuable, using twilight pathways to get troupes to make contact with some front line bubble wrap or using twilight pathways to get a starweaver full of fusion deep into the back line to kill something more valuable.
If you do decide on one large footslogging unit of harlequins what masque will they be in? Because they want to be in a different masque than your starweaver players. Your shadow seer has the be the same masque as our footsloggers. Are you okay paying all those points for a shadowseer who can only protect one unit?
bullyboy wrote: Downside is that the shadowseer is now kind of stranded (one thing I didn't like about the power)
If you bring the SS, DJ, and Solitaire then your SS can leverage Heroes Path so he/she doesn't have to be stranded. If you go second then they are protecting the troupe and in turn gaining their protection via character rules (same as DJ and Solitaire) during your opponents 1st shooting phase. Then during your turn place him/her anywhere on the battlefield. If you go first you can run the troupe up and heroes path or run the characters up along with them.
lambsandlions wrote: My issue with the foot harlies is that a starweaver on one wound does more than a troupe on one wound. That is to say if you damage a starweaver but don't kill it, it can still do its job, but if you kill halve of the troupes they will do very little in combat. Also you have to wonder what is more valuable, using twilight pathways to get troupes to make contact with some front line bubble wrap or using twilight pathways to get a starweaver full of fusion deep into the back line to kill something more valuable.
If you do decide on one large footslogging unit of harlequins what masque will they be in? Because they want to be in a different masque than your starweaver players. Your shadow seer has the be the same masque as our footsloggers. Are you okay paying all those points for a shadowseer who can only protect one unit?
I think lambsandlions is on point here. As ablative wounds the starweaver still wins over 7-8 base troupes due to utility and it simplifies masque considerations.
It seems like a large troupe on foot is better utilized in lower points games where weavers are limited, OR as an allied patrol to another Eldar faction that has more threatening units for your opponent to deal with at range.
The numbers i came out with were not even optimised for if you really wanted to max out a foot force. There are two things in particular that can really round it out.
1, Frozen Stars warlord trait can give you a FnP bubble even should the enemy get first turn
2, The relic "Laughing Gods Eye" can get around all morale issues
Note that I did the numbers assuming you had to deliver 4 kitted our Troupers since the worst-case scenario for the Star Weaver while still being a viable unit is that it gets destroyed and you end up having to Veiled Path the occupants up the board anyway. In cases where it gets destroyed, that 5th model mathematically goes splat.
Also you have to wonder what is more valuable, using twilight pathways to get troupes to make contact with some front line bubble wrap or using twilight pathways to get a starweaver full of fusion deep into the back line to kill something more valuable.
In the best case scenario of a full squad consisting of say 5 fully loaded Frozen Stars Troupe and 7 barebones getting in undamage - that's ~19 GEQ kills or bang on 10 MEQ if you are using Caresses..... and then you get to do it again with your "Wardancers" stratagem if there are enough targets left alive, or just give yourself +1 to wound. I'd 100% say that is more valuable than 5 fusion pistol shots at short range.
Alternatively, with Soaring Spite getting a Troupe Master near the squad you catapult, you can get 21 GEQ and 11.8 MEQ kills with Embraces.
Lithanial wrote: 1, Frozen Stars warlord trait can give you a FnP bubble even should the enemy get first turn
This is probably the absolute worst Warlord Trait in the book. It only triggers when the "unit" loses its last wound. So you only get to roll when the last Player standing in a troupe/Skyweaver in a squad would be slain or the last wound on a Star/Voidweaver would be taken. It only happens on 6's too.
I get that's what Scorpion said on his preview but then the miniwargaming one says when he reads it out "Each time a model from a frozen stars unit within 6" of your warlord loses its final wound". We will know once we actually get the book but i'd be expecting it to act like a proper FNP bubble, with the added perk that it ignores multi-damage weapons punching through your FNP roll.
bullyboy wrote: well, if he takes 5 kitted out and 7 ablative then he is delivering the same punch as 5 troupes in a starweaver (although the weaver can absorb overwatch a heck of a lot better) plus the attacks of the bare bones harlies.
I see what he is saying, 7 harlies is 91 pts (less than a starweaver) and is not as fragile as probably first believed (as long as the Shadowseer is close by). Downside is that the shadowseer is now kind of stranded (one thing I didn't like about the power)
Not stranded at all if you can just Voip her off the board with heroes path in your opponent's turn and pop her down wherever you want her afterwards. In the couple test games with harlies ive played so far, HP has been my very favorite stratagem overall because both games I've lost turn 1 and was able to use that strat for some serious mindgames.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So let's talk relics. I envision using the following two relics in most games: Cegorach's Rose and the Storied Sword
- Solitare with Cegorach's Rose: attacks at S4/AP-1/D3 dmg (Flat 3 against infantry) with rerolls of failed wounds. If you blitz him, he gets 2 additional attacks. He will excel at taking out 2+/3++ characters.
- Troupe Master with the Storied Sword: 5 attacks at S4/AP-3/D3 dmg rerolling all failed hits/wounds. He should really crush TEQ squads.
I will be running Frozen Stars, so both of those options will have gain +1 attack on the charge, and there is potential for one to gain +2 attacks and +2 strength from a stratagem if they take a wound in overwatch on the charge. There is potential for the two to overlap a bit as they can do the same things, but I am not sure there are any other relics I'd take other than perhaps the Ghoul Mask if I know I'm playing a Psyker heavy army. Thoughts?
I'm quite a fan of the no-overwatch relic when all is said and done, particularly on a Soaring Spite warlord who can get in fast.
That 3+ invulnerable to shooting is no doubt going to save its bacon a lot, plus if you get your positioning right, he can catch up to any unit that falls back from combat with him by using the 6" Heroic Intervention from the "Dramatic Entrance" stratagem on the opponents charge phase.
Starmist Raiment is my favorite relic. It's utility is undeniable IMO. There are some units out there that are nigh-unchargeable - and this will give us one tool in the toolkit to shut them down.
I also like Midnight's Chimes for use as a mini Great Harlequin to spread out the combat deadliness. Pop the fight-twice stratagem in a turn in which you pop Midnight's Chimes for a +1 attack to everyone in two consecutive turns of combat.
I'll be taking the Storied sword - I have the old Jes Goodwin High Avatar model (so gloriously 80s!) as my Great Harlequin (yes I'll be dropping 2CP on that too!) and since a regular power sword is not as good as an embrace, will be nice to have something that matches the model!
The Starmist Raiment looks solid, and the Suit of Hidden Knives could cause a few laughs - I certainly would be careful of doing any parkour moves in that
Looking forward to the codex, especially experimenting with Prismatic/Haywire loadouts on bikes. I should point out - I'm a recreational player, so I'm more keen on using all the "troll" style powers and strategems than anything competitive. Most of my Harlies are painted MIdnight Sorrow style, so pleased its a good Masque trait!
darkarchonlord wrote: I'd expect a tack-on Harlies force to be a brigade since Harlies are one of the easiest factions to get a strong brigade out of. I was thinking something more like this. Run as Soaring Spite and capitalize on the power of the fusion pistol and a tough package.
Troops
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
[152] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress & Fusion Pistol
Dedicated Transport
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
[99] Starweaver
Total: 963pts +5CP
(Note the comment I replied to was deleted)
Assuming that the list above is our base list, what do you guys think would be a good ally? An archon and 3 ravagers seems nice but 2 farseers and 3 rangers would be great for objectives. Harlequins can do everything so I am not sure what we really need.
They need Infiltration and/or screens. They're the epitome of Glass Cannon like the recently done Deathwatch are, so it's important to plan those blockers so that everything else can go forward with ease. Of course we'd rather do pure, but GW...
Unfortunately as I've had no interest in Space Elves outside Harlequins I don't know everything available regarding allies, as I don't see Dark Eldar enough and Eldar don't need anyone by their side.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They need Infiltration and/or screens. They're the epitome of Glass Cannon like the recently done Deathwatch are, so it's important to plan those blockers so that everything else can go forward with ease. Of course we'd rather do pure, but GW...
Unfortunately as I've had no interest in Space Elves outside Harlequins I don't know everything available regarding allies, as I don't see Dark Eldar enough and Eldar don't need anyone by their side.
DE/CWE are both great allies, both can bring something god and screens at the same time, DE screens are the cheap 6pt kind where CWE are Scouts. Both have good fliers, AT, strong units, and long range shooting.
When it comes to allied forces I've actually been considering the Webway Gate combined with the Webway Strike stratagem to get a good amount of foot-dar up field where we need them, without piling too many points of value into the gate. Maybe something simple like this:
Troops [60] 5 Rangers
[120] 10 Dire Avengers - Webway Spar [120] 10 Dire Avengers - Webway Spar
Elites [240] 10 Fire Dragons - Webway Strike
Fortification Detachment
[120] Webway Gate
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Comes in at a rather rounded 850 points and gives you some good anti-horde, bolsters up your anti-tank and finally, gives you a back-field objective holding team. Note that you could easily swap the Fire Dragons out, Webway Strike one of the Dire Avenger units and bring something chunkier through the Webway Gate.
For casual games the WWG is fine, but as soon as you play any type of local comp game or WAAC player where you follow GW rules about terrain and Objective placement, its literally impossible to play it, as the other player just needs to make sure there isnt more than a 18" gap between terrain and objectives.
Luckily most tournaments have set objectives/terrain, even tho there is huge arguments that objective placement is part of the tactics of the game.
Highly unlikely that they can 100% stop it being placed, even if you have to deploy it side-on at one of the flanks as far forward as possible you should be able to get it down.
not sure where you get an 18" gap though? the rule states just 3" gap between the model and terrain/objectives. Considering you can rotate that gate around I really don't see an issue.
Lithanial wrote: Highly unlikely that they can 100% stop it being placed, even if you have to deploy it side-on at one of the flanks as far forward as possible you should be able to get it down.
not sure where you get an 18" gap though? the rule states just 3" gap between the model and terrain/objectives. Considering you can rotate that gate around I really don't see an issue.
Each pillar is roughly the size of a WK base, and you need to put down two of them. And they have to be separated by a distance that seems to also be the size of a WK base (I got all these approximative measurements from the pictures). If the arches have to be less than 6" apart (which I think is the case), then you can't have anything between them, not even an objective right in the middle.
So that's a ~14"x3" footprint. With a 3" gap with all the other features, you need a empty spot on your table ~20"x9" (oval shaped). That's extremely difficult to come by.
Lithanial wrote: Highly unlikely that they can 100% stop it being placed, even if you have to deploy it side-on at one of the flanks as far forward as possible you should be able to get it down.
not sure where you get an 18" gap though? the rule states just 3" gap between the model and terrain/objectives. Considering you can rotate that gate around I really don't see an issue.
Each pillar is roughly the size of a WK base, and you need to put down two of them. And they have to be separated by a distance that seems to also be the size of a WK base (I got all these approximative measurements from the pictures). If the arches have to be less than 6" apart (which I think is the case), then you can't have anything between them, not even an objective right in the middle.
So that's a ~14"x3" footprint. With a 3" gap with all the other features, you need a empty spot on your table ~20"x9" (oval shaped). That's extremely difficult to come by.
That still doesn't stop it being deployed down a board edge in my view. At worst your opponent can put an objective on each edge just to push your portal back, but you will just end up with your portal full of Ob-Sec troops 3" away from an objective, or maybe even two with your own objective placements in mind.
Lets say that even if terrain placement manages to let your opponent shut down one flank for placement, you can just place your own objective ~7" in from the other board edge. With those Webway Gate footprint dimensions and with your opponent not allowed to place another objective within a 12" bubble of that you just secured yourself a spot for the Webway Gate along with an objective right next to it for all your troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fine-tuned a 2000 point mixed Webway Gate list given everything we have been discussing the past few days.
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Soaring Spite Battalion HQ [77] Troupe Master - Harlequin's Caress. Skystrider, Starmist Raiment [86] Troupe Master - Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Kiss
[125] Shadowseer - Twilight Pathways, Veil of Tears
What is frustrating is that there is a glare making some of the words unreadable. But there is clearly a note about setting it up that reads "... place them so that an arch is formed with the <blurry word> <blurry word>
Those last 2 words are likely very important in regards to the spacing of the spires. But even with the blur, it doesn't look like specific inches are given. I suspect the spacing is likely subjective, meaning that if you can place the 6.1" apart and still "form an arch" than you can indeed place them with an objective at the center. The best part if that the size of the objective doesn't matter since you measure from its center.
TopperHarley wrote: I'll be taking the Storied sword - I have the old Jes Goodwin High Avatar model (so gloriously 80s!) as my Great Harlequin (yes I'll be dropping 2CP on that too!) and since a regular power sword is not as good as an embrace, will be nice to have something that matches the model!
Just remember that the Storied Sword allows the reroll of all failed hits for it's wielder, so the Great Harlequin ability will be a waste on that particular Troupe Master (though he will still provide a bonus to others around him). It is fluffy and cool though! I did a custom Troupe Master just for this relic:
Possible, but well have to wait until someone has the book in hand.
The other fun thing it that none of the set-up rules tell you the spires must be in a straight line, You could easily set them up at an angle/corner to each other. It would look weird, but seems legit
bullyboy wrote: pretty sure I saw it somewhere which stated that the gates are placed 5" apart at the base.
This is the assumption given the picture of the WK between them and the knowledge that a WK base is 5". I posted a pic of the actually rules above and only a few words are blurry, but it doesn't appear to say 5" anywhere
bullyboy wrote: pretty sure I saw it somewhere which stated that the gates are placed 5" apart at the base.
This is the assumption given the picture of the WK between them and the knowledge that a WK base is 5". I posted a pic of the actually rules above and only a few words are blurry, but it doesn't appear to say 5" anywhere
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I just replied on the other topic:
Saw the rules today, the two arches must be set up 5" apart (that's the part you can't read in the leaked picture).
The box has the rules, but not the stratagem to get a unit out after the gate has been destroyed (that's still only for Harlies).
The pillars are a little bit smaller than what I was expecting.
bullyboy wrote: pretty sure I saw it somewhere which stated that the gates are placed 5" apart at the base.
This is the assumption given the picture of the WK between them and the knowledge that a WK base is 5". I posted a pic of the actually rules above and only a few words are blurry, but it doesn't appear to say 5" anywhere
-
I just replied on the other topic:
Saw the rules today, the two arches must be set up 5" apart (that's the part you can't read in the leaked picture).
The box has the rules, but not the stratagem to get a unit out after the gate has been destroyed (that's still only for Harlies).
The pillars are a little bit smaller than what I was expecting.
Yeah. I don't really see a way to use this other than as a distraction piece to make your opponent waste anti tank fire to kill a 100-point thing. Even then that's super weak. It's not really useful in any way. Kind of like a drop pod you have to start on the board and if your opponent kills it before the units get out, they're dead.
And when you're unfavorably comparing something to a drop pod in 8th...
As soon as the model officially comes out, I'll send an email to GW explaining how I can't deploy it by following the rules properly.
The "more than 3" from terrain" rule is really hurting it. I suppose it was originally put there to prevent models from deepstriking into terrain (even though the normal stratagems allow you to do it), and to look a bit cooler, but I can't see how it got past playtesting. Like even a single game with it would make it clear that the rule is broken.
Without it, I think I'll use it in casual games. It looks cool, and I'll probably use it to deepstrike a WK (even if it's technically not possible to have it wholy within 3" of the arches) or 3 Voidweavers
I agree, Haywire Skyweavers seem to be a viable choice for anti-tank now.
But they only work against vehicles, whereas fusion pistols also work on high-T non-vehicle. They're actually the only thing Harlequins have against high toughness.
Without it, I think I'll use it in casual games. It looks cool, and I'll probably use it to deepstrike a WK (even if it's technically not possible to have it wholy within 3" of the arches) or 3 Voidweavers
Luckily, you can fit a Wraithknight wholly within 3'' assuming the inside edge of the arches is over 0.32'' in width. Just measuring the circles from the center of arch edge creates an overlap distance of 3.316'' at the narrowest point. Thankfully, that gap is stretched wider by the measuring distances from the outer edges of the arch edges (which should add roughly the arch width to the overlap distance). The Wraithknight only needs a 3.622'' wide entry area perpendicular to the arches. So, even if the inner most edge of the Webway arch is only half an inch wide, it will fit a Wraithknight with just a little wiggle room.
fresus wrote: I agree, Haywire Skyweavers seem to be a viable choice for anti-tank now.
But they only work against vehicles, whereas fusion pistols also work on high-T non-vehicle. They're actually the only thing Harlequins have against high toughness.
True, but a Troupe Master gives the ability to reroll failed wounds in the fight phase, so there's an outside shot against monsters and such. Also, the potential for Mirror of Minds is huge. It does rely on luck, but that's kind of harlequin's thing, no?
I think your main anti-tank will be your fusion pistols as they are good against both elite units, monsters and tanks. Your second line would be some haywire skyweavers as the haywire cannon is great against tanks and actually pretty good vs troops. Sadly voidweavers are just not good enough and you would rather take more fusion pistols.
Consider running a mixed unit of haywire and shuriken cannon skyweavers instead of homogeneous weapon units. Two units of four bikes with two of each gun in each unit, for example, instead of two units of four of each gun. This will let you pull casualties of the less desirable weapon in a given matchup. Facing Tyranids? Pull casualties from haywire to preserve your shuriken. Tank heavy foe? Pull shuriken before haywire.
Downside being: you have to build in inefficiency in your list.
ryzouken wrote: Consider running a mixed unit of haywire and shuriken cannon skyweavers instead of homogeneous weapon units. Two units of four bikes with two of each gun in each unit, for example, instead of two units of four of each gun. This will let you pull casualties of the less desirable weapon in a given matchup. Facing Tyranids? Pull casualties from haywire to preserve your shuriken. Tank heavy foe? Pull shuriken before haywire.
Downside being: you have to build in inefficiency in your list.
Yeah and when it comes to their main weapon GW handily made it so you HAVE to mix because only one dude can throw a star bola, despite the kit having two of those in it.
Thanks GW I was really looking to repaint the arms of that squad I'd built with bolas.
fresus wrote: I agree, Haywire Skyweavers seem to be a viable choice for anti-tank now.
But they only work against vehicles, whereas fusion pistols also work on high-T non-vehicle. They're actually the only thing Harlequins have against high toughness.
True, but a Troupe Master gives the ability to reroll failed wounds in the fight phase, so there's an outside shot against monsters and such. Also, the potential for Mirror of Minds is huge. It does rely on luck, but that's kind of harlequin's thing, no?
The troupe master is indeed an absolute must against anything that isn't T3. But last time I was up against custodes, it didn't matter much.
I think I'm also very bitter than the neuro-disruptor doesn't wound on 2+. It feels like it was always costed as if it had the rule.
Star bolas are indeed a real joke in 8th. Only one model can fire them, and it's instead of their main gun. It should be much stronger, with 1 use only like in 7th. At least it would make sense to have multiple in the same unit.
Hmm. How critical are improved melee weapons on troupes if pursuing the melta clown car doctrine? My burgeoning list has 32 players in 6 cars carrying 26 melta among them. They're joined by 3 melta/kiss masters and a shadowseer.
I'm considering running 2x4 skyweavers with zephyrblades and an even mix of shuriken cannons and haywire cannons, but dropping one squad of skyweavers would let me take 4 embrace/kiss per troupe. I'm not sure which is preferable: a second unit of bikes to scoot around and shoot or melee weapons on 2/3 of my troops.
ryzouken wrote: Hmm. How critical are improved melee weapons on troupes if pursuing the melta clown car doctrine? My burgeoning list has 32 players in 6 cars carrying 26 melta among them. They're joined by 3 melta/kiss masters and a shadowseer.
I'm considering running 2x4 skyweavers with zephyrblades and an even mix of shuriken cannons and haywire cannons, but dropping one squad of skyweavers would let me take 4 embrace/kiss per troupe. I'm not sure which is preferable: a second unit of bikes to scoot around and shoot or melee weapons on 2/3 of my troops.
I am wondering this as well. If you are taking soaring spite you really want a full clown car of pistols but hopefully you don't need much else. This problem though is that harlequins are soooo much better with weapons than with swords. And at some point your starweaver will be shot down and you will want to clean up with melee weapons. So it might come down to an issue of just how much damage you need in close combat.
Just for example a caress or embrace kills 1.2ish MEQs per harlequin where the swords kill .3 MEQs per harlequin. So for 5-6 points you are making your clowns 4 times better in combat. With this in mind it is hard not to arm as many guys as you can.
ryzouken wrote: Hmm. How critical are improved melee weapons on troupes if pursuing the melta clown car doctrine? My burgeoning list has 32 players in 6 cars carrying 26 melta among them. They're joined by 3 melta/kiss masters and a shadowseer.
I'm considering running 2x4 skyweavers with zephyrblades and an even mix of shuriken cannons and haywire cannons, but dropping one squad of skyweavers would let me take 4 embrace/kiss per troupe. I'm not sure which is preferable: a second unit of bikes to scoot around and shoot or melee weapons on 2/3 of my troops.
I am wondering this as well. If you are taking soaring spite you really want a full clown car of pistols but hopefully you don't need much else. This problem though is that harlequins are soooo much better with weapons than with swords. And at some point your starweaver will be shot down and you will want to clean up with melee weapons. So it might come down to an issue of just how much damage you need in close combat.
Just for example a caress or embrace kills 1.2ish MEQs per harlequin where the swords kill .3 MEQs per harlequin. So for 5-6 points you are making your clowns 4 times better in combat. With this in mind it is hard not to arm as many guys as you can.
This is where the 2 battalion lists might work. One Soaring spite with fusions/swords in weavers and a midnight sorrow with melee weapons and shurikens in weavers
Hmmm. My current setup for troupes is n-1 fusion to keep a cheaper dude around for crash absorbtion. Makes a five player unit cost 101 with all blades.
I'm definitely running two battalions. I'm not heavily interested in solitaire or jester at the moment, though I concede they can be excellent under the right conditions.
This is where the 2 battalion lists might work. One Soaring spite with fusions/swords in weavers and a midnight sorrow with melee weapons and shurikens in weavers
1640pts so far so a few leftover for a solitaire or jesters
I'm not a fan of the dual battalion personally due to wanting a mix of units
My main problem is that when you go deep with a starweavers they are going to get blown up and you are going to be next to your opponent so not being able to do damage in assualt is a waste. I know I am going to have a troupe master with the talon moving 28" turn one. When that starweaver dies (which might be hard as it will have -2 to hit and 3++) I want a unit of harlequins next to my troupe master that has weapons, so for at least the unit that rides with my troupe master I need caresses. For my second starweaver I am going to have my warlord shadowseer pop out after advancing and cast twighlight pathways so I would like that starweaver to also have weapons. So for at least 2 of the 3 soaring spite troupes I want weapons.
I just feel that pistols get too close to the enemy not to have a weapon on your harlequin.
basic harlequins will clear chaff though, although that's a horrible use for those armed with fusions.
I will be going for a mix as I just usually like redundancy, plus most of mine are already built and have a mix of weapons. Just hope they do something with the damned neuro disruptor.
Think about fusion clowns with strong CC weapons as one big joke on your opponent. They spend all this firepower taking out a model that's firing tons of high damage shots just to then be surrounded by stabby clowns WITH those same pistols.
Those starweavers will die, and that just moves us onto act II.
So with Dreaming Shadow having a great warlord trait for the ability they have. Deep Strike two max squads, and use the redeployment Strategem to throw your Death Jester into a better position and then your Shadowseer near your Clowns. Only problem is getting a Troupe Master nearer to make the most of the giant distraction whilst everything advances up or camps.
Just bought the Codex. Shadowseer w/ Veil of Tears and Webway Dance with a unit of 12 Troupes sounds nasty.
I wonder if it is better to have 1 Troupe Unit backed with 2 - modifiers and a shadowseer or 2 Troupe unit a with a Webdance Shadowseer with both units having a -1 modifier.
So now I've actually got the book in my hands, it's nifty Warlord loadout time!
Commander of the Masque Shadowseer - Player of Twilight, The Starmist Raiment, Twilight Pathways
Usable by any Masque, you want to start on the table to farm as many command points back as possible. The 3+ Invulnerable to shooting, -1 to wound and your free save re-roll all help ensure you stay alive if caught. You can then turbo sprint up the board with Twilight Pathways to knock out a units overwatch capabilities where required.
Mind bullets Shadowseer - Luck of the Laughing God, The Mirrorstave, Shards of Light
I've been scouring the core book and Mortal wounds are constantly referred to as "damage". In my book, that could well mean Luck of the Laughing God lets you re-roll 1's on your D3 mortal wounds for Smite, Shards of Light and the Hallucinogen grenades but i'd feel much more comfortable with an FAQ to confirm. Add on the damage output of The Mirrorstave with all those tasty re-rolls and you have quite the ranged powerhouse.
Master of Death Troupe Master - Player of the Dark, Midnight's Chime, Great Harlequin
Player of the Dark turns out as the best "weapon" for a Troupe Master, adding over 1 kill per attack round at its base 5 attacks. Your Midnight Sorrow trait combined with copious use of the "Dramatic Entrance" stratagem will keep you bouncing between targets and the Chime combos well with your Great Harlequin aura for raw damage output. He will need support up with him to ensure he does not get shot apart, plus he is a complete CP hog, but it's probably the best raw damage output Troupe Master we can build.
Lithanial wrote: So now I've actually got the book in my hands, it's nifty Warlord loadout time!
Come join the fun
As I said, I'm not a competitive player, (and I prefer Midnight sorrow as my masque) more about the fun but what about (on two Masques I likely wouldnt use)
Shadowseer (Silent Shroud) - Player of the Light, Scintillant Veil, Silken Knife
Extends the Shield from Harm ability and Player of the Light warlod trait (re-roll charges) to 9" each. Thats a good bubble. Pop the Shroud specific strategem to negate overwatch and get a big unit of Harlies (perhaps protected by Veil or Fog, or any of the strategems) in where it hurts. I suppose you could do the same on a Troupe Master, but it'll probably bite into the CP to keep a big footslogging unit alive without a Shadowseer around.
Or (cheap warlord)
Death Jester (Dreaming Shadow) - Luck of the Laughing God, Curtainfall, Example Made strategem, Shrieking Doom strategem
Re-roll hit, wound and damage rolls with the Curtainfall, and combine with example made to turn hits into two or (hopefully) three hits to hopefully knock chunks out of chaff units. And if he snuffs it fire off one last Shrieker Shot with the Curtainfall
Also Mortal Wound section says they dont roll to wound, they just do wounds, if it is D3 you are still not rolling for wounds, so you cant re-roll them unless you have an ability that says "re-roll any dice" like command point re-roll.
It's not the re-roll wound part you are using. Luck of the Laughing God states you get to re-roll "Damage Rolls". It does not specify that you are only re-rolling the damage attribute of a weapon.
The core rules are 100% clear that Mortal Wounds are a source of damage being inflicted, not something different. As such what do you call that D3 roll to see how many mortal wounds are inflicted?
I'm pretty sure you would be calling it a roll to see how much damage is inflicted, a.k.a. a damage roll. But like I said, it could really do with an FAQ confirmation or denial since there is no past precedent for what that roll is actually called that I can find.
Lithanial wrote: It's not the re-roll wound part you are using. Luck of the Laughing God states you get to re-roll "Damage Rolls". It does not specify that you are only re-rolling the damage attribute of a weapon.
The core rules are 100% clear that Mortal Wounds are a source of damage being inflicted, not something different. As such what do you call that D3 roll to see how many mortal wounds are inflicted?
I'm pretty sure you would be calling it a roll to see how much damage is inflicted, a.k.a. a damage roll. But like I said, it could really do with an FAQ confirmation or denial since there is no past precedent for what that roll is actually called that I can find.
It's not unique, there have been other rules that let you reroll damage and you cannot use it on MW's. Mortal wounds circumvent the entire process. Your trying to now use part of that process you skipped over to impact your rolls.
On another note, I cannot believe how many people are butchering the whole example made, curtainfall combo. It's not even remotely close to the way 90% of the youtube players are using it. I'll be honest, I almost think an example made would be better used on a Troupe master with a fusion pistol at this point. It's decent enough on elite model units I suppose, but it is hardly the unit destroying combo initial reports were playing it as. It's not even remotely unclear which made me laugh. Some people must be blind to the word shrieker lol.
On another note, I cannot believe how many people are butchering the whole example made, curtainfall combo. It's not even remotely close to the way 90% of the youtube players are using it. I'll be honest, I almost think an example made would be better used on a Troupe master with a fusion pistol at this point. It's decent enough on elite model units I suppose, but it is hardly the unit destroying combo initial reports were playing it as. It's not even remotely unclear which made me laugh. Some people must be blind to the word shrieker lol.
How are people playing an example made wrong because it seems straight forward. (possible people were using leaked wording that was wrong) Are people playing curtainfall wrong? because the way the textbox is not divided for each profile may be causing confusion.
The textbox say the MW only apply to the shrieker profile, although I can see how someone might miss it on the first read.
The next sentence (about the -2Ld) is however less clear. When explaining the effect, it refers to "this weapon", not a specific profile. Given that the same wording is used for the normal DJ cannon, and only refers to the shrieker profile, it seems clear the -2 Ld only applies to the shrieker profile, but the wording is a bit unclear.
A DJ with Curtainfall, the double hit strats, the +1S/D3 damage strat, and the reroll warlold trait clocks at ~6 S8/AP-2/D3 hits, rerolling 1s to wound. That's quite a fun combo for a 45pts model. Not really a competitive one because it's locked to a suboptimal form, takes your warlord trait, a relic and 2CP, but it can be quite fun in casual play.
Nope, +1 strength and d3 damage are on the shrieker round as well. That's the type of misplay I am referring to. The gun only ever does D3 damage and then mortal wounds on the shrieker profile, meaning your locked into one shot that can explode with the example made stratagem if you want. No where near as good as a lot of folks are thinking it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: IDK maybe I am the wrong one. I keep rereading through it all though and it seems like I have it correct.
Red Corsair wrote: Nope, +1 strength and d3 damage are on the shrieker round as well. That's the type of misplay I am referring to. The gun only ever does D3 damage and then mortal wounds on the shrieker profile, meaning your locked into one shot that can explode with the example made stratagem if you want. No where near as good as a lot of folks are thinking it is.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not unique, there have been other rules that let you reroll damage and you cannot use it on MW's. Mortal wounds circumvent the entire process. Your trying to now use part of that process you skipped over to impact your rolls.
Got any examples of this elsewhere Corsair? I can't think of any case where damage re-roll and mortal wound generation are shared by the same model so would appreciate the example to compare and contrast with.
Goobi2 wrote: Thoughts on using Fire and Fade on a Starweaver to help get riding Troupes into murder range?
This is actually brilliant. The stratagem stats that it just has to happen after the unit shoots and not the end of the shooting phase so you can easily shoot and then move 7". That puts our max range for soaring spite at 35" of movement, 41" for pistols and 38" for melta.
Red Corsair wrote: Nope, +1 strength and d3 damage are on the shrieker round as well. That's the type of misplay I am referring to. The gun only ever does D3 damage and then mortal wounds on the shrieker profile, meaning your locked into one shot that can explode with the example made stratagem if you want. No where near as good as a lot of folks are thinking it is.
You're right, I'm one of the blind people
For me is it worth 2CP to have a better chance to do MW's to infantry over a normal DJ b.c its -2ap (S6 to S7 means nothing with Infantry), on averages )hits on 2, wounds on 2/3+) you will get 3 D3 MW rolls in a 5 turn game. for 2CP that does seem worth it when you look at CP stratagems that just does strait 1D3 MW's (they are 1CP each). Its S7 with + -2ap, so over all its worth the relic, its just that, are there 3 other relics that are better? IMO Yes
For me Cegorach's Rose is a 100% must on a Solitaire and the Starmist Raiment is also a 100% must for anti-Overwatch, after those 2 it comes down to your army style, but for me Faolchu's Talon and Ghoulmask are better if you are playing Soaring/Frozen, Deny powers wont work on 2 armies, but in Comp games there will always be Powers, and +1 Deny on a Shadowseer with +1 to the roll is very good. The Faolchu's can get you to save 1-2 guys from dying and also a turn 1 important charge if you need to shut something down right away while getting 6 FP's in range to do damage.
A Vanguard detachment with Shadowseer, 2 jesters and a Solitaire requires me to only buy exactly 1 more HQ than my standard Harlequin list I was running before, and now I have an actual reason to want 2 Shadowseers so I'm pretty OK with that.
Dreaming shadow is in no way suboptimal for either shadowseers or Death jesters, who both have significantly potent shooting attacks to get off when they die.
A combo of An Example Made and Shrieking Doom is a little silly, but uses of one or the other with curtainfall (combined with Luck of the Laughing God trait) are quite strong. An Example Made allows the Jester to cut down most characters who don't have invuln saves fairly reliably, or just to chop up elite infantry and Shrieking Doom can be nice for getting some mortal wounds on a multi-wound squad like Primaris marines since with the warlord trait you'd reroll 1s for damage as well.
Yeah, combining them is very unlikely to be that useful. you've got better ways to spend CP. But it certainly seems like a fun use of a warlord trait even if what's technically the best is likely to be the same thing that's always the best in every army, the "fun as eating a whole sleeve of saltines with no water" CP regeneration gak.
For me Cegorach's Rose is a 100% must on a Solitaire and the Starmist Raiment is also a 100% must for anti-Overwatch, after those 2 it comes down to your army style, but for me Faolchu's Talon and Ghoulmask are better if you are playing Soaring/Frozen, Deny powers wont work on 2 armies, but in Comp games there will always be Powers, and +1 Deny on a Shadowseer with +1 to the roll is very good. The Faolchu's can get you to save 1-2 guys from dying and also a turn 1 important charge if you need to shut something down right away while getting 6 FP's in range to do damage.
I agree. I will be taking Starmist Raiment every game, and potentially Cegorach's Rose on a Solitaire for 1CP. I am also interested in Midnight's Chime's to set up a brutal turn of charges combo'd with Wardancers but that will require some playtesting to see whether the Chimes are worth it over the Rose. For my playstyle, I am going to be trying out Midnight Sorrow but will also be trying to playtest Soaring Spite. Personally, I think Harlequins win the game in Close Combat, and so i'm hesitant to really go full bore on things that tempt me to stay in my Transports.
Midnight Sorrow is good, but you should remember that the turn you charge you can't fight, even when using the wardancer stratagem, what you didn't declare as a charge target. And you can only pick a charge target 12" away, and they all get to overwatch.
I'm heavily pondering the role of the Webway Gate within the force as a way to lock-down some of the battlefield objectives.
Through smart objective placement, you should be able to ensure that a Webway Gate can be placed near to 1-2 objectives. Probably your best unit to actually camp on those nearby objectives are your Death Jesters, since they can contribute from afar and benefit from Character targeting rules - however they are vulnerable to anything that gets close. Put a single Troupe squad in that Webway Gate though, and you now have some effective, well protected backup to support those Death Jesters.
The more I mull the idea over, the more I like it.
Weidekuh wrote: Midnight Sorrow is good, but you should remember that the turn you charge you can't fight, even when using the wardancer stratagem, what you didn't declare as a charge target. And you can only pick a charge target 12" away, and they all get to overwatch.
This is true, and has always been true in 8th. However - Harlequins have the best abilities in the entire game IMO to take advantage of movements in the Charge and Fight phase. Being able to ignore intervening models, fall back, consolidate (extra inches w/ Midnight Sorrow), etc, give them the most tools of any army to take advantage of combat shenanigans. Most of the time, you don't even want to fight things you consolidate into - you simply want to tie them up or lock them down so you can't be shot in the ensuing enemy shooting phase (this is the only sure fire way to protect yourself from shooting after all). Depending on how well you pull those movements off, as well, you can limit the return damage in CC to just a few models worth of attacks if you pin down a single flank of a unit and spread out nicely. Given our mobility its not a stretch to seriously game the combat movements to our advantage.
Weidekuh wrote: Midnight Sorrow is good, but you should remember that the turn you charge you can't fight, even when using the wardancer stratagem, what you didn't declare as a charge target. And you can only pick a charge target 12" away, and they all get to overwatch.
This is true, and has always been true in 8th. However - Harlequins have the best abilities in the entire game IMO to take advantage of movements in the Charge and Fight phase. Being able to ignore intervening models, fall back, consolidate (extra inches w/ Midnight Sorrow), etc, give them the most tools of any army to take advantage of combat shenanigans. Most of the time, you don't even want to fight things you consolidate into - you simply want to tie them up or lock them down so you can't be shot in the ensuing enemy shooting phase (this is the only sure fire way to protect yourself from shooting after all). Depending on how well you pull those movements off, as well, you can limit the return damage in CC to just a few models worth of attacks if you pin down a single flank of a unit and spread out nicely. Given our mobility its not a stretch to seriously game the combat movements to our advantage.
I think Midnight Sorrow is great to, but IMO more of a Jack of all Trades, and i'm setting my quins up as dedicated shoot or melee. But if i played Troupes with Melee and FP's i would play Midnight sorrow more, +1 attacks for a turn, attack against with +1S for your Solitaire when dies, always staying n combat, its good.
Lithanial wrote: I'm heavily pondering the role of the Webway Gate within the force as a way to lock-down some of the battlefield objectives.
Through smart objective placement, you should be able to ensure that a Webway Gate can be placed near to 1-2 objectives. Probably your best unit to actually camp on those nearby objectives are your Death Jesters, since they can contribute from afar and benefit from Character targeting rules - however they are vulnerable to anything that gets close. Put a single Troupe squad in that Webway Gate though, and you now have some effective, well protected backup to support those Death Jesters.
The more I mull the idea over, the more I like it.
If it wasn't super easy for your opponent to just alpha strike it and kill it/surround it, I'd think the idea had merit. But as it stands, even if you take the thing, carefully place it such that it's 3" away from your DZ (just in case it dies turn 1 and you have to get out via the strat), AND your opponent isn't smart enough to deny that thru his own objective placement...your opponent can also just take a unit of shining spears/custode bikers/reaver jetbikes/Da Jump boyz/whatever and swarm over to swamp it so you can't get out of it.
Any firepower spent on the Webway Gate is shots not going into your Starweavers which is really not a bad thing. Then should they try to crack it with an assault squad like Shining Spears your harlequin team comes out well within assault range to tear them apart on the follow up.
Even then a full squad of 9 shining spears falls just mathematically short of actually killing the thing so it's not exactly "super easy" to alpha strike.
Furthermore, due to the size of the Gate, even 30 ork boyz charging in from 9" out are not going to be able to block the entire portal deployment coverage area, even if they roll a 12" charge. I get people are heavily over-dramatizing about the Webway Gate "risks" for some reason, but i'd be holding off any doom and gloom verdicts until people actually play test the thing.
Also I am personally expecting the Webway Gate to be an exception to the turn 1 deep strike beta rules once they actually launch, just like the smite beta rules picked up some exceptions when it hit implementation.
So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Looks pretty solid. I do always advise people heavily against trying to create hyper-optimized spam lists because they tend to be amazing in the moment...and then terrible when whatever they rely on to work gets nerfed.
Your army is going to be heavily at the whims of fate when it comes to Embrace or Fusion Pistol nerfs. I ain't saying all fusion/embrace is bad...it's arguably quite good, just that there are some real world considerations you should take into account before dropping hundreds of bucks on models and the extra bits required to make all these guys. I know a lot of people with 6 riptides or 50 scatter laser jetbikes gathering dust right now.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Looks pretty solid. I do always advise people heavily against trying to create hyper-optimized spam lists because they tend to be amazing in the moment...and then terrible when whatever they rely on to work gets nerfed.
Your army is going to be heavily at the whims of fate when it comes to Embrace or Fusion Pistol nerfs. I ain't saying all fusion/embrace is bad...it's arguably quite good, just that there are some real world considerations you should take into account before dropping hundreds of bucks on models and the extra bits required to make all these guys. I know a lot of people with 6 riptides or 50 scatter laser jetbikes gathering dust right now.
Are troupes easily magnetizable because that's what I'll probably do in case that happens. Does the list appear to be lacking anything though? I've got 13 CP, but I've spent one on a relic.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Looks pretty solid. I do always advise people heavily against trying to create hyper-optimized spam lists because they tend to be amazing in the moment...and then terrible when whatever they rely on to work gets nerfed.
Your army is going to be heavily at the whims of fate when it comes to Embrace or Fusion Pistol nerfs. I ain't saying all fusion/embrace is bad...it's arguably quite good, just that there are some real world considerations you should take into account before dropping hundreds of bucks on models and the extra bits required to make all these guys. I know a lot of people with 6 riptides or 50 scatter laser jetbikes gathering dust right now.
Are troupes easily magnetizable because that's what I'll probably do in case that happens. Does the list appear to be lacking anything though? I've got 13 CP, but I've spent one on a relic.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Over all your list looks fine. But, think about adding in some Skyweavers, 22" movement with shoot and charge, they are highly worth it.
What do you think I switch out for the Skyweavers?
I dont think they will be nerf at all, Embraces arent even the good weapon IMO, a Caress will out preform it most of the time (basically against anything thats not a MEQ without an Invul), and FP wont be nerf b.c EVERY FREAKING ARMY HAS THEM (Sorry im really tired of people crying nerf for them), SM can get them on every sargent/character, SOB can get 4 per unit on Seraphim, and a full unit of them, BA can get them in massives easily, DE verson (no melta rule but 12") can be taken in massive as well, etc... so dont worry about nerfs to them at all.
Honestly the only unit i see being nerf wouth be Skyweavers, they are just amazing right now.
IDK what to take out for you personally, i am running 2 Battalions myself but i am only taking 3 Troupes with 4 FP's each and 3 Troupes with only Caress so i can fix in 6 Skyweavers. Even just a unit of 2 would be great if you are able to fit them, if not play around and see if you even like them before taking out anything.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Looks pretty solid. I do always advise people heavily against trying to create hyper-optimized spam lists because they tend to be amazing in the moment...and then terrible when whatever they rely on to work gets nerfed.
Your army is going to be heavily at the whims of fate when it comes to Embrace or Fusion Pistol nerfs. I ain't saying all fusion/embrace is bad...it's arguably quite good, just that there are some real world considerations you should take into account before dropping hundreds of bucks on models and the extra bits required to make all these guys. I know a lot of people with 6 riptides or 50 scatter laser jetbikes gathering dust right now.
Are troupes easily magnetizable because that's what I'll probably do in case that happens. Does the list appear to be lacking anything though? I've got 13 CP, but I've spent one on a relic.
Zarroc1733 wrote: So I'm starting a harlequinn army now as I really like they're fast play style. I've read through this, and the codex and came up with a list, and I was curious if it was decent.
Over all your list looks fine.
But, think about adding in some Skyweavers, 22" movement with shoot and charge, they are highly worth it.
What do you think I switch out for the Skyweavers?
I dont think they will be nerf at all, Embraces arent even the good weapon IMO, a Caress will out preform it most of the time (basically against anything thats not a MEQ without an Invul), and FP wont be nerf b.c EVERY FREAKING ARMY HAS THEM (Sorry im really tired of people crying nerf for them), SM can get them on every sargent/character, SOB can get 4 per unit on Seraphim, and a full unit of them, BA can get them in massives easily, DE verson (no melta rule but 12") can be taken in massive as well, etc... so dont worry about nerfs to them at all.
Honestly the only unit i see being nerf wouth be Skyweavers, they are just amazing right now.
IDK what to take out for you personally, i am running 2 Battalions myself but i am only taking 3 Troupes with 4 FP's each and 3 Troupes with only Caress so i can fix in 6 Skyweavers. Even just a unit of 2 would be great if you are able to fit them, if not play around and see if you even like them before taking out anything.
While they may not get nerfed now, it is possible for them to be nerfed or unusable in future editions. That's why I like to magnetize.
Youll have a very tough time magnetizing harlequins.
For one thing, when most people are talking about "I'm going to equip ALL my harlequins with fusions!" they're planning on going for the "nip and cut" method of chopping the pointy bit off all their Kisses, chopping the barrels off their fusion pistols, and gluing the pointy bit and the pistol grip together to make a fusion pistol, while the arm that used to have a kiss on it would be called a "caress".
That gives you a whole box worth of caresses and fusions, but kills your ability to magnetize to Kisses and Shurikens.
only 2 fusions/embraces normally come in a box.
As to everyone having melta pistols...blood angels/Deathwatch HQs and sarges, sisters HQs and seraphim, inquisitors, and CWEHQs does not constitute "everyone" and of all of those, the only ones who can take them on EVERY GUY in a squad and also be mobile enough to not have issues with the 6" range are Seraphim. And there's a reason Seraphim are considered REALLY REALLY good with those guns. If they didn't cost 110 dollars to field a squad of 10 in a GW tournament, you'd probably see more Seraphim.
melta guns firing out of open-topped, -1 to hit, 4++ transports that move 22" a turn is a thing that is highly likely to get nerfed at some point. It is a strong enough thing that I look at this list with every guy equipped with one and I don't go "hmm, that looks like overkill." No, that is a solid list that probably only wants for horde clearing.
Is it worth putting 2 DJs, Soli and Shadowseer in a Starweaver in a Drreaming Shadow Vanguard Detachment?
You can give 1 DJ Curtinfall and use the Dj stratagem on the other Dj to have them both at S7. Plus with a Starweaver they will be mobile Snipers. Solitaire Will basically get out on the Weaver when possible and Blitz into combat.
Shadowseer provides 6+ FnP to either Starweaver if not in side and constantly advancing to keep up with it or to everything when/if they disembark.
I would almost always use the stratagem on Curtain fall personally, S8 is better than S7 IMO, you can wound MEQ on a 2+ now, but yeah if you need a 2nd S7 thats fine too, the D3 is more important than the +1S.
For the purpose tho, the idea of that vanguard detachment, sure its worth a try, many Harlequin players have been thinking of doing it too.
And your Shadowseer, Why do you need FnP for those few units? FnP is better on large wound pools, you almost need to build a force to work with the FnP, having 30+ Wounds around the Shadowseer IMO makes FnP worth it, if its not at least 24 wounds i dont feel its worth it. 1 WOund per Starweaver saved can make it not die, but when its only 1-2 starweavers and a couple characters, thats not much, but on 5 Starweavers thats now a wound pool of 30, now you are saving 5 wounds thats almost a vehicle.
Odrankt wrote: Is it worth putting 2 DJs, Soli and Shadowseer in a Starweaver in a Drreaming Shadow Vanguard Detachment?
You can give 1 DJ Curtinfall and use the Dj stratagem on the other Dj to have them both at S7. Plus with a Starweaver they will be mobile Snipers. Solitaire Will basically get out on the Weaver when possible and Blitz into combat.
Shadowseer provides 6+ FnP to either Starweaver if not in side and constantly advancing to keep up with it or to everything when/if they disembark.
I've actually just had a test game where I did this, and it performed pretty spectacularly.
I decided to go whole hog and do Luck of the Laughing God WL trait on my Curtainfall jester, and I gotta say...maybe it's not optimal, but it sure does make the Jester play amazingly well.
I was up against a relatively competitive guard army, gunline using the Catachan tactics, he had a manticore, two basilisks, two full mortar HWTs and a pair of leman russes around Harker, then a screen of about fifty infantry with a lord commissar and three company commanders one with the CP recycling business. He got turn 1, I scooped my secondary jester, solitaire and shadowseer into reserve and dropped them down out of line of sight but within easy assault range of the bulk of his army. Since they were closest, he ended up expending both basilisks, the manticore, and all the mortars to kill the Solitaire, who was up all night to get lucky with his invuln saves (lightning reactions helped a lot obviously).
The shadowseer dunks the lord commissar with mirror of minds and shards of light mortal wounds, regular jester and curtainfall jester take down the Cp-recycling commander with An Example Made on the curtainfall jester, and my skyweavers, a couple starweavers, Death Jester and the mask of secrets shadowseer jump in against the infantry blob with skyweavers tying most of them up with the Silken Shroud stratagem.
Game pretty much ended there as each infantry unit took 3-4 extra casualties from morale and there wasn't much screen left to speak of.
The big stratagem I really didnt see a ton of use for was Shrieking Doom, which I really thought I'd be going for a lot more because of the luck of the laughing god making my damage rolls more reliable. But six shots, hitting 35/36, wounding 35/36 and having enough AP to ignore flak armor or get a commander to his invuln save turned out to be extremely reliable. I did use Shriekers that second turn to clear out infantry that had fallen back into a line in front of the tanks, but at that point I didnt have CP to burn because I had to save my last two for another overwatch-ignore against the tanks.
Kind of an odd question, but how would one play harlequins footslogging harlequins? I was thinking Dreaming Shadow to minimize morale losses and use a combination of webway strats and shadowseers to get them close before they all die. One could use haywire skyweavers for good ranged anti tank.
Also, is it just me or does it seem that at least one detachment of soaring spite is pretty much required? Load 3 starweavers with fusion pistols and up up and away.
Even tho Harlequins have very few units to chose from, I feel like they can pull off some very cool shenaningans that really fits their theme. Their strength lies in using their special rules, warlord traits, stratagems and relics to really mess with your opponent.
The thing is, they are not obvious, so maybe we can gather some here. They may inspire even more trolltastic moves.
- Big unit of Skyweavers with Haywire cannons + Stratagem Cegorach's Jest: Shoot one vehicle for crippling damage and then bind another shooty vehicle in melee (charge or consolidate). but make sure it's the only unit in melee with your skyweavers. Bonus points if you're only just inside 1" with one model. Why? If he doesn't fall back, your unit is protected from shooting. If he falls back use the stratagem and blow his tank up.
- Soaring spite, Stratagem: Skystride, (War Dancers): Move your transport to where you want to move your troupe unit after it has fought. Fight with your troupe and then consolidate away into another one before the first enemy unit can hit back. You can even chain this with War Dancers. Perfect scenario would be: Fight and kill unit 1, consolidate to unit 2. Fight and kill unit 2 with War Dancers and then consolidate to your transport to either get in or bind a third unit in melee. What makes this so good is that you can plan where your unit can consolidate and it's a full 6".
- The suit of hidden knifes (on any character, but solitaire speed or shadowseer selfbuffing are probably most reliable): This is a more obvious one, but still fun. Prepare to have it nerfed and only count unmodified rolls of 1. Because fog of dreams, veil of tears, drain(craftworld), lightning fast reflexes = -4 to hit. This means on any hit rolls of 1,2,3,4,5 you roll a 2+ and the enemy unit gets a mortal wound. What's hilarious about it, if he had a 3+ to hit, he can't even hit you, but still has to roll to kill himself. Especially fun against those max blobs of ork boys or genestealers. Works best if you can jump your character into the middle of his unit (flipbelt) before he gets to attack.
RedGriefer wrote: Kind of an odd question, but how would one play harlequins footslogging harlequins? I was thinking Dreaming Shadow to minimize morale losses and use a combination of webway strats and shadowseers to get them close before they all die. One could use haywire skyweavers for good ranged anti tank.
My thoughts on this one are you go Frozen Stars and have a Shadowseer warlord with "Our Kin Shall Rise Again" for the FnP bubble and take "The Laughing God's Eye" as your relic for morale immunity. Take big Troupe squads with ~5 special assault weapons in each.
Twilight pathways one Troupe up for a fast charge and bring a lot of Skyweavers to lock units down and act as a high priority distraction.
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When it comes to a Webway drop, a funny thing to do against "Heavy" profile shooting units if you are Veiled Path is Webway in 1 Shadowseer and a big Troupe unit nearby. Debuff the unit with "Fog of Dreams" and then Fire and Fade your Troupe up within 3" of them. If they move away on their turn, they are now -2 to hit. If they stay put, you can use "Capricious Reflections" to Heroic Intervention into them with your Troupe.
Far too many CP to invest for it to be practical. But it is funny.
I'm trying to finalise my list(s) before splashing out too much cash and could do with some advice.
My main Battalion will be TM, SS, 3 x Troupes w/fusion & caress in transports, 1/2 DJ, Solitaire and 6 Bikes w/haywire. I'm undecided on Masque but probably Midnight Sorrow or Soaring Spite.
That's about 1150 ish points which leaves me with 800 odd for allies (or 600 if 1750 becomes the norm).
I think the biggest gap in the list is anti-horde. So the question is what are our best choices to cover that from the DE/CWE codexes?
And if you think something else would be useful, please feel free to suggest.
Nastiest horde killers Aeldari have mathematically are Drukhari Shredders.
You could spam a few Scourge squads in an Outrider detachment. They are mobile enough to keep up, pack a punch and then being mercenaries you can still have whatever HQ and Drukhari sub-faction support you like.
Alternatively I don't think you can go wrong with Dire Avengers backed up with Death Jesters to hold objectives and bulk up your horde killing, plus Farseers are always good.
MarkM wrote: I love the Hawks as models too - except that they are only available as failcast :( Maybe I'll just have to swallow that.
I'll check out Scourges too as both fit the playstyle of fast moving units.
You can always buy the Scourge models and put Dire Avenger heads on them. Now you can play them as either Scourges or Hawks, depending on your need/desire.
MarkM wrote: I love the Hawks as models too - except that they are only available as failcast :( Maybe I'll just have to swallow that.
I'll check out Scourges too as both fit the playstyle of fast moving units.
You can always buy the Scourge models and put Dire Avenger heads on them. Now you can play them as either Scourges or Hawks, depending on your need/desire.
Rear Left:
Spoiler:
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That warp spider is an awesome conversion. Great use of extra raider legs. I just need to know what the backpack used was...
Howdy folks I swear I skimmed these thread 3 times looking for this answer.... and i feel like it's in this thread and i missed it... So forgive me for asking a redundant question??
Can a solitaire bliz move and advance as part of the blitz?? Or does it being a blitz stop you from being able to advance??
Again forgive me if this has been asked.... I feel like it has been >.>
Necron Deathmark back torso half. Easily acquired via eBay. I snip the "hood" off and reglue it into the open gap where the spinal vertebrae are suppose to go.
Spoiler:
Sorry for the continued shameless plugs. Anyone have any idea when the Harlie/WWG FAQ should be out?
mmimzie wrote:Howdy folks I swear I skimmed these thread 3 times looking for this answer.... and i feel like it's in this thread and i missed it... So forgive me for asking a redundant question??
Can a solitaire bliz move and advance as part of the blitz?? Or does it being a blitz stop you from being able to advance??
Again forgive me if this has been asked.... I feel like it has been >.>
Nothing says you can't. It adds 2D6" to your movement stat, but otherwise doesn't change the normal movement rules.
Galef wrote:Anyone have any idea when the Harlie/WWG FAQ should be out?
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Great stuff as usual Galef.
The FAQ is supposed to come out 2 weeks after the codex, but rarely on weekends. So my guess would be on the 11th or 12th.
Necron Deathmark back torso half. Easily acquired via eBay. I snip the "hood" off and reglue it into the open gap where the spinal vertebrae are suppose to go.
Spoiler:
Sorry for the continued shameless plugs.
Anyone have any idea when the Harlie/WWG FAQ should be out?
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Don't worry about shameless plugs. They might be inspirational to someone so if it's that good feel free.
mmimzie wrote:Howdy folks I swear I skimmed these thread 3 times looking for this answer.... and i feel like it's in this thread and i missed it... So forgive me for asking a redundant question??
Can a solitaire bliz move and advance as part of the blitz?? Or does it being a blitz stop you from being able to advance??
Again forgive me if this has been asked.... I feel like it has been >.>
Nothing says you can't. It adds 2D6" to your movement stat, but otherwise doesn't change the normal movement rules.
Galef wrote:Anyone have any idea when the Harlie/WWG FAQ should be out?
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Great stuff as usual Galef.
The FAQ is supposed to come out 2 weeks after the codex, but rarely on weekends. So my guess would be on the 11th or 12th.
Yeah as it stands you can blitz, advance, twilight pathways (the blitz move increase lasts the full turn) for an average movement of 45 inches before you charge. For 1 CP when you advance you could move 6 inches automatically in the movement phase with warrior acrobats increasing your movement in a single turn to about 47.5 inches
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course I'm not sure you'd want to as your solitaire would be completely alone.
rollawaythestone wrote: I agree a Solitaire is great at hunting characters - but there are many many warlords and important characters that he won't scratch in combat.
With Cegorach's Rose? Basically every infantry character is dead meat. Lots of attacks, rerolls to wound, most of the times a save of 3+ or worse, and you only need a couple of blows to go through to murder almost anyone. And this is if you don't get wounded by overwatch (which you seriously hope for, given the Torments of the Fiery Pit stratagem. With it, there isn't an infantry character that would survive). Sure, he is far less effective versus non-infantry characters, but those are generally rarer.
Yeah as it stands you can blitz, advance, twilight pathways (the blitz move increase lasts the full turn) for an average movement of 45 inches before you charge. For 1 CP when you advance you could move 6 inches automatically in the movement phase with warrior acrobats increasing your movement in a single turn to about 47.5 inches.
Yeah as it stands you can blitz, advance, twilight pathways (the blitz move increase lasts the full turn) for an average movement of 45 inches before you charge. For 1 CP when you advance you could move 6 inches automatically in the movement phase with warrior acrobats increasing your movement in a single turn to about 47.5 inches.
You can't twilight pathways when you blitz.
Yeah can use twilight path after you blitz. You just can use twilight path the turn before you blitz right??
The wording on Blitz means you can use it, provided Twilight Pathways wasn't used in the previous psychic phase. To me that says Blitz + Twilight Pathways is doable?
Oh yeah weird wording. Raw you're right. It is strange tho,makes little sense. Rai is probably not allowed but you're right, you can. Just not next round...
Weidekuh wrote: Oh yeah weird wording. Raw you're right. It is strange tho,makes little sense. Rai is probably not allowed but you're right, you can. Just not next round...
Its the same wording as the index and its been asked before, to me that's clearly RAI and RAW now unless it actually does get a FAQ when the FAQ comes out soon.
Papewaio wrote: The wording on Blitz means you can use it, provided Twilight Pathways wasn't used in the previous psychic phase. To me that says Blitz + Twilight Pathways is doable?
You can't Blitz once you are buffed by Twilight Pathways until that buff is gone.e.g. - Turn 1 you decide to TP the Solitaire, Turn 2 you decide you want to Blitz but you can't as TP is still in affect until the next Phase. Than on turn 3 you will be free to Blitz as TP should no longer be in affect.
The only RAI v RAW is turn 1. As you could technically Blitz before your 1st Pysker phase which could loop hole the restrictions.
Its not hard, the rules only state you cant blitz if you in a previous psychic phase used twilight pathways. Turn 1 there is no previous phase, if you didn't cast it on him turn 1 then turn 2 you can still use them together.
Im sure the reason why is to not be able to move across the table in 2 turns to get anywhere you wanted. If you can move advance, Twilight turn 1 for about 30", then turn 2 move + Blitz, then twilight again, that is about 37-42", for a total of 67-72"
Amishprn86 wrote: Its not hard, the rules only state you cant blitz if you in a previous psychic phase used twilight pathways. Turn 1 there is no previous phase, if you didn't cast it on him turn 1 then turn 2 you can still use them together.
Im sure the reason why is to not be able to move across the table in 2 turns to get anywhere you wanted. If you can move advance, Twilight turn 1 for about 30", then turn 2 move + Blitz, then twilight again, that is about 37-42", for a total of 67-72"
If you Twilight Pathways on Turn 1 you can't Blitz Turn 2. Pysker phase is after the movement phase meaning if you TP on turn 1 it will last during your movement of turn 2.
Just bring a Starweaver instead of using TP
Move and advance the weaver, disembark turn 2 and than Blitz. Easier and safer option.
Dude... thats what i said. You can TP+Blitz anytime you didnt TP the turn before.
Also its not safer, its another option. Safer will heavily depend on what/who you are fighting, you might want to TP your Skyweavers turn 1 and Blitz+TP turn 2 so you can have some nice tie up units and hit a key character turn 2 that is to far away (Easy to TP now b.c you had a turn to get your shadowseer in range).
These are all options you can no, most of the time you wont TP+Blitz but its is good to know how the rules work so you dont get into an argument with others and so you are playing it correctly.
For me i most likely will be TP powers on my Troupes or Skyweavers or even a Starweaver over Solitaire, i see no purpose in him being TP, as i can move him turn 1 then Blitz turn 2 and be just fine.
- The suit of hidden knifes (on any character, but solitaire speed or shadowseer selfbuffing are probably most reliable): This is a more obvious one, but still fun. Prepare to have it nerfed and only count unmodified rolls of 1. Because fog of dreams, veil of tears, drain(craftworld), lightning fast reflexes = -4 to hit. This means on any hit rolls of 1,2,3,4,5 you roll a 2+ and the enemy unit gets a mortal wound. What's hilarious about it, if he had a 3+ to hit, he can't even hit you, but still has to roll to kill himself. Especially fun against those max blobs of ork boys or genestealers. Works best if you can jump your character into the middle of his unit (flipbelt) before he gets to attack.
If you use the cwe index swooping hawk exarch sun rifle then this can go to -5. Laugh at your opponent's 2+ rerollable blender unit of death!
Swooping Hawks are good with Harlequins anyways, they can give us a good amount of AI, with a Farseer for Doom, and a JinxLock they combine really well.
Amishprn86 wrote: Swooping Hawks are good with Harlequins anyways, they can give us a good amount of AI, with a Farseer for Doom, and a JinxLock they combine really well.
I think craftworld in general is a nice pair with harlequins. Rangers are the perfect cheap objective sitters who can just sit back in our deployment zone and stay on the objective. A farseers with doom and executioner will really help and a farseers on bike is also great for taking overwatch and dishing out damage.
All of that in a battalion is like 400pts and gives 5cp.
MarkM wrote: I love the Hawks as models too - except that they are only available as failcast :( Maybe I'll just have to swallow that.
I'll check out Scourges too as both fit the playstyle of fast moving units.
You can always buy the Scourge models and put Dire Avenger heads on them. Now you can play them as either Scourges or Hawks, depending on your need/desire.
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How would you explain the guns though? Lasrifes don't exactly look like Blasters/Dark Lances...
So..... I'm considering adding 10 hellions (awesome models and very harlequin trainee in style, also good to tie up units to allow harlies to attack), and 2 units of scourge (blaster and darklances to provide heavy support oh and awesome models!) And lelith (awesome character (in fluff and likes ynnari and harlies)....
Any thoughts?
Dark Lance Scourges are almost pointless honestly, take either blasters or HWB's.
Hellions they even have a stratagem that makes them more fun, i would take 1 unit of 10 instead of 2x5, a larger unit is much better, 2 stratagems and drugs heavily helps them. Hellions are best for 2W models OR models with FnP and Invuls, they are very strong against DG and Daemons, they almost completely counter Invul only DG units with their disgusting resilience (Pox walkers for an example), they are also good against 4+ armor bike units and tyranids/orks with 4/5+ and multi-wounds, they are bad against MEQ.
As for being added to harlequins, they dont add much in rules to them, as they have basically they same roles, for looks? Yeah they fit well, especially Hellions. I assume you are taking a Outrider detachment? Lelith, Hellion, x2 Scourges? Scourges are good, they have a lot of pros for them and good weapons.
IDK how you are building and painting your army, but you can make Scourges without wings and do Balloons or just an odd DE flip belt to fit the harlequins theme more, Hellions will be fun to paint as Harlequins, you can add PGL's for -1 LD as well and that works well with harlequins.
Hellions don't add much to Harlequins. They do look good, but that's about it.
Scourges are more interesting, especially with shredders. They can bring some very needed anti-horde to Harlies.
Amishprn86 wrote: Dark Lance Scourges are almost pointless honestly, take either blasters or HWB's.
Hellions they even have a stratagem that makes them more fun, i would take 1 unit of 10 instead of 2x5, a larger unit is much better, 2 stratagems and drugs heavily helps them. Hellions are best for 2W models OR models with FnP and Invuls, they are very strong against DG and Daemons, they almost completely counter Invul only DG units with their disgusting resilience (Pox walkers for an example), they are also good against 4+ armor bike units and tyranids/orks with 4/5+ and multi-wounds, they are bad against MEQ.
As for being added to harlequins, they dont add much in rules to them, as they have basically they same roles, for looks? Yeah they fit well, especially Hellions. I assume you are taking a Outrider detachment? Lelith, Hellion, x2 Scourges? Scourges are good, they have a lot of pros for them and good weapons.
IDK how you are building and painting your army, but you can make Scourges without wings and do Balloons or just an odd DE flip belt to fit the harlequins theme more, Hellions will be fun to paint as Harlequins, you can add PGL's for -1 LD as well and that works well with harlequins.
So, I broke my Cardinal Rule in the index (never build a model just to get the rules) and built myself a scourge squad with nothing but DLs, and now I'm using them because suboptimal or not, I sank the hours into building and painting them.
And honestly...don't get the hate for them. I pay 3ppm more than blasters, and what I get out of the unit is flexibility. Against an army without much downrange shooting, they plop down in cover and they can immediately shoot with BS3+ where my Blaster scourge would have to sit and wait a full turn. 12pts is a small price to pay for 4 DL shots in the critical first turn.
Against an army that has downrange shooting, they deepstrike, and they STILL get to come down turn 1, because they feature 36" range. While they are BS4+ that first turn which stinks, that's still shooting I usually wouldn't get. And again thanks to the range, they almost always get to sit in cover (Meaning I have the option of using Hunt from the Shadows to make them ridiculously hard to take out with the kinds of small arms that generally get committed to them) and they require my opponent to go much more out of their way to try and hurt them.
I field a unit of DLs and a unit of Haywire, and despite Haywire being considered the "best" option and DLs probably the second worst behind splinter cannons, I tend to like the DLs far better. The mathhammer/theory doesn't favor them because in theory you're paying more points for range on a unit that's "just going to deep strike" but post-DSFAQ I like them a lot.
Dl vs Blaster, B.c blasters hit on 3+ when you move and DLs hit on 4+ when you DS or move, you cant advance with them either, this heavily limited your options and damage.
If you want Scourges with DL im not going to stop you, but for the points they are very weak, just take Ravagers, they are the same points for +3 Toughness, 5++, 10W's vs 5W's and can DS as well with Assault weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im not saying dont do it, go for it, play what you like, i'm just saying why people dont take them, when you compare them to Ravagers, or other units, even Skyweavers (For Haywire) Scourges are a neat unit and are fun, but there are reasons why others dont like them.
Amishprn86 wrote: Dl vs Blaster, B.c blasters hit on 3+ when you move and DLs hit on 4+ when you DS or move, you cant advance with them either, this heavily limited your options and damage.
If you want Scourges with DL im not going to stop you, but for the points they are very weak, just take Ravagers, they are the same points for +3 Toughness, 5++, 10W's vs 5W's and can DS as well with Assault weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im not saying dont do it, go for it, play what you like, i'm just saying why people dont take them, when you compare them to Ravagers, or other units, even Skyweavers (For Haywire) Scourges are a neat unit and are fun, but there are reasons why others dont like them.
I find they have several benefits over a Ravager, and that they are entirely different units from Skyweavers (tho if we're talking haywire unit vs haywire unit, I definitely prefer the skyweavers there..they're just great all around.)
Versus a Ravager, their points are equal but their firepower is only equivalent when they either DS or move. When they're standing still and firing their 36" range guns, they have 25% more firepower. In a situation where I'm putting them on the table turn 1, odds are good my opponent will have targets within 36" of me after I deploy, because that's why I chose to put them on the table. If you end up in a situation where you need to move, especially advance, a unit that deep strikes with 36" range weapons, you've made a mistake or the game has progressed to the point where -1BS probably won't matter because you're mopping up. This is particularly true if your opponent does not manage to kill a unit of blaster scourge the turn they come in.
Durability-wise, comparing a vehicle to an infantry unit and just saying "5 wounds vs 10 wounds" is fairly silly as well because mechanically those 5 wounds operate very differently from those ten.
How many unsaved wounds must they take from anti-infantry weapons? Half as many.
How about Autocannons? Exactly the same amount, because the Ravager takes 2 damage and the Scourges take 1.
How about Lascannons? 1.75 times as many on average, because the Ravager takes 3.5 and the Scourges 1.
in certain situations you see single wound, mid strength and high-AP firepower, like Cawlbots, but it's much more common to see that kind of firepower fall into the category of shorter range and lower AP.
That's when I enjoy having the scourges as a game piece on the board where I can use their unexpected durability vs anti infantry fire with Hunt from the Shadows. people tend not to expect a unit that looks like that to pull out a 2+ armor save, and on average my opponent could commit a punisher tank to my Scourges and with HFTS up they won't even get to the dark lances with average rolling.
The point wasnt to argue what is better, i said i gave some whys many dont like them (DL scourges), this isnt a DE forum lets keep it on Harlequins, if you want to debate DL scourges go to DE forum.
If you are asking, if they bring something to Harlequins, lets see what your list is for Harlequins then, b.c you might not even want scourges, if you want to take them for fun, then play them, no need to ask us
If youa re not playing with Skyweavers then HWC are an option, but in general now that they are assault weapons i think they are amazing, it gives quins options we dont have.
So here is a preliminary list I have for my Harlequins. A detachment of Soaring Spite for some good tank hunting with Haywire Skyweavers to help out with that and Dreaming Shadow for some good Stratagems and Relics. It is a pretty CP hungry list due to using Heroes Path, Great Harlequin, and 1cp for an additional relic right off the bat but even after it I'd still have 8 CP. I could leave Great Harlequin out for more flexibility with 2 more CP but I also have some CP farm with Player of Twilight on my Shadowseer Warlord.
Looks good but I think Dreaming Shadow need some decent shooting in case they go down. Their Masque Form lends itself better to shooting when they die rather than a single CC attack.
Amishprn86 wrote: If youa re not playing with Skyweavers then HWC are an option, but in general now that they are assault weapons i think they are amazing, it gives quins options we dont have.
Yeah, I’ve got a few Skyweavers and have them magnetised between Shuriken and haywire. I’ve already got a couple of Starweavers built too, and don’t need anymore, I have a couple unbuilt and figured I’d do them as VWs. My main issue with the HWC is they can’t wound high toughness non vehicles.
Hey fellow warrior clowns, I’ve been reading my codex and the thread and getting more pumped up to try out some lists. I’ve always wanted to try a freakshow list, and the new codex gives some solid options in that regard. I originally wanted to put this together as a Craftworld/Quin/DE super alliance, but I found it hard to fit everything I wanted into 2000 points. I ended up dropping the Dark Eldar piece of the list and limiting it to CWE and Harlequins. List is spoilered below:
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment - Dreaming Shadow
HQ - Shadowseer - Warlord (Player of the Twilight), Twilight Pathways, Shards of Light
Death Jester - Curtainfall
Death Jester
Solitaire - Rose
Troupe x 5 - all fusion and caresses
Starweaver (for the troupe)
Skyweavers x 6, all with HWC, 4 glaives
Craftworld Battalion - Alaitoc
Farseer on a jetbike w/singing spear - Doom and Mind War
Spiritseer - Protect/Jinx
Guardians x 20 - heavy weapons platform w/shuriken cannon
Dire Avengers x 5 w/Exarch w/ 2x cats
Rangers x 5
Shadow Spectres x 5 w/Exarch
Hemlock - Jinx
Swooping Hawks x 6 w/Hawk’s Talon Exarch
Wave Serpent - 3x shuricannon, spirit stones
I gave some thought to going Silent Shroud, but I really want to try out Curtainfall. I also feel like most of the units in the detachment benefit quite well from the Dreaming Shadow trait.
With regard to the Ld attacks, I can really stack up the debuffs, but the main goal is going to be to put them on an enemy character and then hit him with Mind War on the same turn the Hawk Exarch deep strikes next to the farseer. If I can use this to assassinate a character who was buffing nearby infantry units’ morale, all the better. If not, most of these units are TAC choices that should do fine regardless. Guardians, shadow spectres and hawks are solid anti-horde, Quins and HWC skyweavers are good anti-tank, and of course the Hemlock with Jinx and the Farseer with Doom are good at buffing up all my other units. The spiritseer got the bill of the obligatory 2nd HQ for the battalion. I don’t have a lot of plans for him at the moment. I suspect he will ride in the Serpent with the Dire Avengers most of the time, only hopping out if there’s a juicy Smite target.
The main issue I see off the top off the top of my head is that I will probably be CP poor most of the time, as the list only brings 9 CP and 2 are already committed to put the guardians in the webway and buy an extra relic, plus I will probably use Heroes Path every game where my opponent gets first turn. Hopefully I can earn a few back off of Player of Twilight to make up for it, as I imagine I will be burning through CP pretty quickly here - so many good stratagems!
And if you’re wondering about the Shadow Spectres, I finished painting them a couple weeks ago and haven’t gotten a game in with them yet, so they aren’t going anywhere right now.
Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GWfaqs it (and it should).
The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.
That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!
The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.
The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.
Amishprn86 wrote: Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GWfaqs it (and it should).
The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.
That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!
The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.
The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.
So you are bending both your shadowseer powers and 2 CP for lightning fast reflexes. But your opponent will never get 20 orks close enough to attack, what's more your opponent doesn't even need to pile in so your troop master will get into contact with maybe 3 or 4 of them. It's a nice idea but just doesn't play out like it should.
You can get to -5 with a cwe enhance/drain warlock and swooping hawks with the index sunrifle on the exarch. It won't be very effective versus hordes, but it will work on elite infantry, dreadnoughts/monsters and tanks. Make sure to put on your best trollface as you ask your opponent how many attacks his baneblade has.
shortymcnostrill wrote: You can get to -5 with a cwe enhance/drain warlock and swooping hawks with the index sunrifle on the exarch. It won't be very effective versus hordes, but it will work on elite infantry, dreadnoughts/monsters and tanks. Make sure to put on your best trollface as you ask your opponent how many attacks his baneblade has.
You're going to do like 6-7 damage to that baneblade. Sounds great until you realize you had to cast 2-3 psychic powers that were harder to cast than smite to do that.
As already discussed earlier in this thread, the mantle of hidden knife relic can be very powerful, but also nearly useless.
But therein lies the power of our relics. We have a great many choices. Pick one that always "works" as the free one. I think I like the storied sword for my warlord with soaring spite warlord trait.
Then depending on who you face buy 1-2 more for CPs before the game.
Lots of melee - knifes
Lots of flamers or T'au - starmist raiment
Lots of multiwound infantry - cegorachs rose
Backfiels artillery, monsters or characters - faolchus talon (soaring spite)
Amishprn86 wrote: Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GWfaqs it (and it should).
The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.
That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!
The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.
The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.
So you are bending both your shadowseer powers and 2 CP for lightning fast reflexes. But your opponent will never get 20 orks close enough to attack, what's more your opponent doesn't even need to pile in so your troop master will get into contact with maybe 3 or 4 of them. It's a nice idea but just doesn't play out like it should.
Any army that is turn 1-2 melee oriented, plus YOU charge them, they will have to attack in melee, they must attack in melee if able to. A unit of Dawneagles, BA Death Company, DE Wyches, etc...
shortymcnostrill wrote: You can get to -5 with a cwe enhance/drain warlock and swooping hawks with the index sunrifle on the exarch. It won't be very effective versus hordes, but it will work on elite infantry, dreadnoughts/monsters and tanks. Make sure to put on your best trollface as you ask your opponent how many attacks his baneblade has.
You're going to do like 6-7 damage to that baneblade. Sounds great until you realize you had to cast 2-3 psychic powers that were harder to cast than smite to do that.
Actually you'd do 9 damage to a baneblade in this (admittedly unlikely) scenario. It has 9 attacks, with a -5 modifier even a 6 becomes a 1. You could leave out the psychic powers for a -3 modifier, resulting in 6 damage on average and leaving you with 2 smites to cast. Disclaimer: I just want to accurately portray the expected outcome here, I do not think this will win you a tournament or w/e.
Amishprn86 wrote: Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GWfaqs it (and it should).
The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.
That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!
The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.
The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.
So you are bending both your shadowseer powers and 2 CP for lightning fast reflexes. But your opponent will never get 20 orks close enough to attack, what's more your opponent doesn't even need to pile in so your troop master will get into contact with maybe 3 or 4 of them. It's a nice idea but just doesn't play out like it should.
Any army that is turn 1-2 melee oriented, plus YOU charge them, they will have to attack in melee, they must attack in melee if able to. A unit of Dawneagles, BA Death Company, DE Wyches, etc...
Your missing the part where you attack, kill models, they remove them from B2B and then have a choice on whether or not to pile into you. That means they can avoid attacking you back. Best your hoping for is using your flip belt to hop into the center of a 30 man ork mob because the player isn't fussing about spacing because it's 8th edition, then you spring this crap on them and have a gotcha moment worth a few laughs and then he makes sure never to leave said opening for you again lol. Whats worse is now he will worry about spacing and your games will take an additional 2 hours to play
It's definitely cool though, and I think it still is a fun combo, but hardly the anti horde your implying. I think it actually works better on elite targets with lots of attacks. Like hilariously, this would scare the crap out of another solitaire It also is funny against dakka Imperial Knights since all they can do is stomp.
I think you are completely forgetting that YOU get to consolidate after they remove models and that you only have 5 attacks, you are only killing 3 on average then moving 3" finally only needs to be within 1".
Amishprn86 wrote: I think you are completely forgetting that YOU get to consolidate after they remove models and that you only have 5 attacks, you are only killing 3 on average then moving 3" finally only needs to be within 1".
Ah right, I did forget it was possible for a single 25mm model to consolidate in and base an entire horde All for the cost of ONLY a relic, two psychic powers and a 2 CP stratagem that is more valuable elsewhere...
No, I think I was right before and still am, it's a very fun combo that is hit or miss and works best on lower number elite models.
Amishprn86 wrote: I think you are completely forgetting that YOU get to consolidate after they remove models and that you only have 5 attacks, you are only killing 3 on average then moving 3" finally only needs to be within 1".
Ah right, I did forget it was possible for a single 25mm model to consolidate in and base an entire horde All for the cost of ONLY a relic, two psychic powers and a 2 CP stratagem that is more valuable elsewhere...
No, I think I was right before and still am, it's a very fun combo that is hit or miss and works best on lower number elite models.
It works best on large number of attack low wound models, never said it doesnt work on elites, units like DC etc... But i'm saying it will also work on melee hordes with 2+ attacks, i'm saying it will still work vs melee hordes.
I'm starting to think Soaring Spite is simply not worthwhile compared to our other Masque choices.
Unless you spend a tonne of CP to turbo boost the range of some transports you simply don't get close enough for using fusion pistols & grenades on turn 1 so the only real advantage is an accuracy boost on Skyweavers trying to blitz something.
I'm now coming around to using Silent Shroud. The extra morale damage is nice, but the two main attractions for me are the ability to get a 9" Great Harlequin aura and having further ways to ignore overwatch.
How are you all finding the Masque choices so far?
I mostly play Midnight sorrow, as it's how my Harlies are painted.
I really enjoy my supercharged Solitaire. With the warlord trait, coegorach's rose, and the stratagem to attack again when dying, the little guy is finally doing some lifting.
The masque trait is a bit difficult to use, and only useful if the enemy is positioned a certain way.
fresus wrote: The FAQ is out.
Nothing important really. No Errata whatsoever.
So the neuro-disruptor is still garbage, and the webway gate basically unplayable.
That is beyond disappointing. I've been waiting for the FAQ since the rules dropped. and didn't notice they were out until now.
I want to buy the model, but my enthusiasm for it is low right now.
Lithanial wrote: I'm starting to think Soaring Spite is simply not worthwhile compared to our other Masque choices.
Unless you spend a tonne of CP to turbo boost the range of some transports you simply don't get close enough for using fusion pistols & grenades on turn 1 so the only real advantage is an accuracy boost on Skyweavers trying to blitz something.
I'm now coming around to using Silent Shroud. The extra morale damage is nice, but the two main attractions for me are the ability to get a 9" Great Harlequin aura and having further ways to ignore overwatch.
How are you all finding the Masque choices so far?
Had a 2000 point game today. With soaring spite I advanced my starweavers and could get close enough to kill
1 renegade knight and 2 helbrutes with 3 starweavers and 6 skyweavers. Had doom, jinx and did also 7 mortal wounds with psychics. Brutal turn 1 shooting, but ist was crucial to be able to advance my starweavers to het into 3" range.
My warlord Troupe Master got out after moving and killed another unit in cc before jumping back into the transport.
I feel like the soaring spite stratagem is soo good because it opens crazy shenaningans and makes you unoredictable.
Has anyone been running veiled path? I'd be interested to know how the masque trait plays out in game, seems really good at first glance but how often does it actually make a difference?
Also quick question, if I roll a 1 and I'm fighting stuff that gets to re-roll 1s, do they still get to re-roll it? I'm guessing yes but...
@Weidekuh: That's some next level 99th percentile dice rolling you had there. Either your play board is too small or your opponent made some severe deployment mistakes to enable you to get within 3" turn 1 - and that's where my dislike for Soaring Spite melta rush is coming from, it requires your opponent to mess up so the more experience your opponents get, the worse your force performance becomes.
@Trashpanda: Veiled paths trait is rather poor unfortunately with it being limited to the fight phase. Most casualties you take will be in shooting or overwatch so the actual increase to your survivability is miniscule. The best part of Veiled Path is how crazy you can make a Shadowseer with the Mirrorstave. I'm sure there is also a good plan with their Warlord trait that can be done for a solid webway drop but have yet to think of anything that I'm 100% comfortable with.
That's a shame, was hoping it would add a bit more survivability as I plan on getting stuck in as soon as possible.
I'll probably still try them out to see how it goes, the extra DS is nice, and the warlord trait, but not sure it's worth giving up PotT CP farming for.
I've been thinking through this Silent Shroud plan over the past few days now and have come to an interesting detachment structure that would be good to get some other opinions on.
1, Scintillant Veil is key here to push the Troupe Masters out to 9". This makes it much easier to position the Troupes and Solitaire to be within them when your opponent spreads out and ensures your Ld impairment stretches out quite a way. Between the large aura and the Starweavers also projecting Ld impairment you will get a substantial coverage that will constantly bleed off casualties and need to be dealt with.
2, Solitaire over taking a Shadowseer as its kill rate within Troupe Master aura is far superior and more reliable.
3, No fusion pistol on the Troupe Master as he will either be advancing and not able to shoot, or otherwise using Haywire & Plasma grenades
4, Shrieker ammo from the Death Jesters has great synergy with the Ld impairment of Silent Shroud. Working as a trio to land a Shrieker kill per turn, they should cripple or destroy a unit per turn. You need 3 Death Jesters to statistically land a shrieker kill per turn against MEQ so i need to go up to 4 Elite choices, locking this formation into a Vanguard detachment
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On top of this I'm going to need a battalion from somewhere to top up the command points and then see how many points are left for extra goodies. Still trying to settle on what the best faction to pull that Battalion from will be though.
Depends on if you want to go pure Harlequins or not as far as which Battalion to go with. A cheap way with good synergy would be a Dark Creed Coven with wracks, put Phantasms on their Raiders, etc.
Personally I'd either go with a Soaring spite Masque if I wanted pure Harlequin, or a Black Heart Kabal with scattered Phantasms if I wanted to stay cheap but still contribute to Ld shenanigans and anti tank. Then add in a pile of Skyweavers for Haywire to aid in vehicle hunting.
It seemed like folks were going all in on caresses initially, but I actually like the embrace much more I am finding. Kills the same rate of GEQ and actually more MEQ from t4-7. The only point where the embrace seems better is against things that are T8-9. What are you guys finding? I still think the worst option is the kiss unfortunately, I think I'd rather save points and take the sword over the kiss, but I am liking the embrace much more lately.
I see no reason to take Embraces of Caress, without a TM they are always better vs MEQ/GEQ/TEQ and with a TM they are only 1/2 a wound worst per Troupe squad vs MEQ/TEQ/GEQ and now they are always better vs T5+ no matter what.
So for 1pt you are only slightly worst with a TM vs light infantry but are always better if you dont have a TM and always better vs heavy infantry. IDK about you but for me that 15-20pts per army is highly worth it.
A couple of questions about how some Harlequins units perform.
Do you like the Death Jester? He's quite cheap but looks useless on paper.
What about Star Bolas on the bikes? Zephyrglaves seem very popular but if you have multiple units of Troupes, Troupe Masters and maybe even a Solitaire another close combat oriented unit is not that appealing while the granades can be another decent anti tank option. They're also free. I'm not a fan of Voidweavers so 2x3 bikes with Bolas and Haywire Cannon look promising. Am I missing something?
Blackie wrote: A couple of questions about how some Harlequins units perform.
Do you like the Death Jester? He's quite cheap but looks useless on paper.
What about Star Bolas on the bikes? Zephyrglaves seem very popular but if you have multiple units of Troupes, Troupe Masters and maybe even a Solitaire another close combat oriented unit is not that appealing while the granades can be another decent anti tank option. They're also free. I'm not a fan of Voidweavers so 2x3 bikes with Bolas and Haywire Cannon look promising. Am I missing something?
I personally don't like the Death Jester, but some do and can do quite a bit of damage when combined with strategems and leadership shenanigans. I've never had much success with low rate-of-fire snipers but honestly it's mainly a personal preference thing on my part.
Main problem with Star Bolas are that they are a Grenade. So only one model can throw one per turn, and when they do that they can't shoot their Haywire. The majority of the time it's better to just shoot the Haywire. The Glaives also allow the Skyweavers to have a dual role, which is very nice considering the very limited unit options the clowns have. With the Glaives the Skyweavers have three roles, primarily anti-tank, and secondarily anti-infantry (due to Haywire rate-of-fire) and harrassment/tie up (similar to DE Reavers).
Similar to you I'm not sure about Voidweavers yet, I've thought about trying the Prismatic versions though.
Main problem with Star Bolas are that they are a Grenade. So only one model can throw one per turn, and when they do that they can't shoot their Haywire. The majority of the time it's better to just shoot the Haywire. The Glaives also allow the Skyweavers to have a dual role, which is very nice considering the very limited unit options the clowns have. With the Glaives the Skyweavers have three roles, primarily anti-tank, and secondarily anti-infantry (due to Haywire rate-of-fire) and harrassment/tie up (similar to DE Reavers).
I understand what you're saying and I see pros and cons in using bolas over glaves. They're granades and only one model can use them per turn but if you run min squads of two bikes this isn't a huge issue and bolas are way better than haywire against anything with a good save that isn't a vehicle.
If equipped with glaves the bikes gain more versatility but it will cost you 6 additional ppm, which is something. In the list I'd like to try there are 6 bikes and no way I'm going to find 36 points without cutting some upgrades that I absolutely want for the troupes. Maybe mixing the two weapons in a unit of two bikes can be an interesting solution? One with the granade, the other one with the melee weapon.
Of course that can work if you really need to save 18 points. Not really how I would do it but that doesn't make it wrong.
For me, the Bolas don't add too much, going after non-vehicle high armor targets aren't the Skyweavers job.
I've also been more inclined lately to go with bigger units of Skyweavers (2 units of 4 or 1 of 6) rather than 3 min sized units, having better effectiveness on Lightning Reflexes seems more adventageous than having the extra CP from filling an Outrider detatchment. So in my case Bolas would really be a pretty minor contribution to anything.
Mainly a personal preference thing.
On Harlequins weapons loadouts - having spent far too long thinking about that one.
Harlequin's Kiss - Main weapon vs multi-wound invulnerable save targets, i.e. characters. Needs to be under Troupe Master Aura. Worth bringing 4 along on your Troupes as that's enough to mulch the average T4 6W 4++ character.
Harlequin's Caress - Main weapon if outside of Troupe Master aura or facing T8. Worth knowing that Troupe Master + Solitaire alone will at least do 4+ damage per combat to T8 so are pretty good at finishing these targets off.
Harlequin's Embrace - Main weapon if inside Troupe Master aura.
Do you like the Death Jester? He's quite cheap but looks useless on paper.
You either need to go for one as Dreaming Shadow and tool him up to get a pretty good ranged warlord who can snipe weaker characters, or otherwise use them in bulk to pile on the Shrieker rounds onto all the abundant MSU infantry squads that are about, so that your Troupes can focus on killing proper units.
Because the way the pairings between teams works you can try to avoid the bad matchups for Harlequins.
A lot of lists that otherwise suffer from bad counter matchups become viable at the ETC because you will likely never get paired against your counter.
karandrasss wrote: Which matchups would you rather have Harlequins over a shootier Aeldari?
Harlequins are pretty good against swarms with their weight of attacks, and if the opponent has several units that don't want to be in melee because they want to shoot, Harlequins are quick enough to make that engagement.
What kills a Harlequin most efficient is weak high rate of fire shots -> Lasguns
Lots of weak CC attacks -> melee swarm units
What they are good against: few strong shots and melee attacks.
And they have probably some of the best anti vehicle and anti monster and anti elite units.
5 man troupes with fusion in a starweaver can potentially move between 16" - 35" before shooting, depending on masque / relic / stratagem used.
Skyweavers are very good against high toughness and high armor vehicles.
combine this with doom and jinx from craftworlds and you have an extremely potent "big guys" killer detachement.
They are a very solid pick, I'd be cautious about taking too many of them though as it can lead to a big unbalance. Taking 10-12 of them will work great when you're up against Guard, Knights, etc. However, in a tournament if your next pairing is against Nidzilla/daemon princes or other tough non-vehicle lists then you'll be having a very tough matchup.
I'm also finding that it can be tough to fit more than 8 Skyweavers in a list without starting to lose CPs from being unable to fill a second Battalion, and Harlies tend to be pretty hungry for CPs.
IMO 6-8 of them is a sweet spot, more and you getting unbalanced against some matchups, less and you're missing out on their versatility. And I don't see why you'd go with any Masque other than Soaring Spite for Skyweavers, maybe Dreaming Shadow?
OK, next question. I was hoping to jncorporate and solid sized squad of sky weavers into a mostly DE/coven list. All the harly detachments are so expensive because the Harlie's themselves are..... what's the cheapest way to jncorportaate 6x sky weavers and not too much else? If I use an auxiliary detachment, do I still get a masque bonus?
Frowny wrote: OK, next question. I was hoping to jncorporate and solid sized squad of sky weavers into a mostly DE/coven list. All the harly detachments are so expensive because the Harlie's themselves are..... what's the cheapest way to jncorportaate 6x sky weavers and not too much else? If I use an auxiliary detachment, do I still get a masque bonus?
I'd go with an Outrider detachment:
HQ:
Shadowseer with shuriken pistol = 125
Fast Attack:
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Total: 431
This is going to be the most effective way to run the bikes, but also the most expensive. You can save 30pts on the bikes by doing shuriken cannons instead of haywire, but that depends on how much anti vehicle you have in your DE section. You could save up to an additional 55 pts by replacing the shadowseer with a troup master, but he won't be able to keep up with the bikes. That point total is also stock without a weapon upgrade or a fusion pistol, but you lose a psyker for denial and smites.
Frowny wrote: OK, next question. I was hoping to jncorporate and solid sized squad of sky weavers into a mostly DE/coven list. All the harly detachments are so expensive because the Harlie's themselves are..... what's the cheapest way to jncorportaate 6x sky weavers and not too much else? If I use an auxiliary detachment, do I still get a masque bonus?
I'd go with an Outrider detachment:
HQ:
Shadowseer with shuriken pistol = 125
Fast Attack:
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Total: 431
This is going to be the most effective way to run the bikes, but also the most expensive. You can save 30pts on the bikes by doing shuriken cannons instead of haywire, but that depends on how much anti vehicle you have in your DE section. You could save up to an additional 55 pts by replacing the shadowseer with a troup master, but he won't be able to keep up with the bikes. That point total is also stock without a weapon upgrade or a fusion pistol, but you lose a psyker for denial and smites.
This
But, if you wanted 1 unit of 6 for stratagems purpose, then do a Patrol of 1 HQ, 1x6 Skyweavers 1 Troupe unit.
Frowny wrote: OK, next question. I was hoping to jncorporate and solid sized squad of sky weavers into a mostly DE/coven list. All the harly detachments are so expensive because the Harlie's themselves are..... what's the cheapest way to jncorportaate 6x sky weavers and not too much else? If I use an auxiliary detachment, do I still get a masque bonus?
I'd go with an Outrider detachment:
HQ:
Shadowseer with shuriken pistol = 125
Fast Attack:
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Total: 431
This is going to be the most effective way to run the bikes, but also the most expensive. You can save 30pts on the bikes by doing shuriken cannons instead of haywire, but that depends on how much anti vehicle you have in your DE section. You could save up to an additional 55 pts by replacing the shadowseer with a troup master, but he won't be able to keep up with the bikes. That point total is also stock without a weapon upgrade or a fusion pistol, but you lose a psyker for denial and smites.
This
But, if you wanted 1 unit of 6 for stratagems purpose, then do a Patrol of 1 HQ, 1x6 Skyweavers 1 Troupe unit.
I would rather have 3 units of 2 to charge 3 different locations on the table turn 1 then 1 unit of 6.
Frowny wrote: OK, next question. I was hoping to jncorporate and solid sized squad of sky weavers into a mostly DE/coven list. All the harly detachments are so expensive because the Harlie's themselves are..... what's the cheapest way to jncorportaate 6x sky weavers and not too much else? If I use an auxiliary detachment, do I still get a masque bonus?
I'd go with an Outrider detachment:
HQ:
Shadowseer with shuriken pistol = 125
Fast Attack:
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Total: 431
This is going to be the most effective way to run the bikes, but also the most expensive. You can save 30pts on the bikes by doing shuriken cannons instead of haywire, but that depends on how much anti vehicle you have in your DE section. You could save up to an additional 55 pts by replacing the shadowseer with a troup master, but he won't be able to keep up with the bikes. That point total is also stock without a weapon upgrade or a fusion pistol, but you lose a psyker for denial and smites.
This
But, if you wanted 1 unit of 6 for stratagems purpose, then do a Patrol of 1 HQ, 1x6 Skyweavers 1 Troupe unit.
I would rather have 3 units of 2 to charge 3 different locations on the table turn 1 then 1 unit of 6.
Again, depending if you want stratagems, 1 unit can DS for 1 CP, 1 unit can have -1 to hit via stratagem, 1 unit can have double movement via Twilight paths, 1 unit can have -1 to hit via other powers, 1 unit gains different benefits that might be more important than 3 units charging 3 units.
Frowny wrote: OK, next question. I was hoping to jncorporate and solid sized squad of sky weavers into a mostly DE/coven list. All the harly detachments are so expensive because the Harlie's themselves are..... what's the cheapest way to jncorportaate 6x sky weavers and not too much else? If I use an auxiliary detachment, do I still get a masque bonus?
I'd go with an Outrider detachment:
HQ:
Shadowseer with shuriken pistol = 125
Fast Attack:
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Total: 431
This is going to be the most effective way to run the bikes, but also the most expensive. You can save 30pts on the bikes by doing shuriken cannons instead of haywire, but that depends on how much anti vehicle you have in your DE section. You could save up to an additional 55 pts by replacing the shadowseer with a troup master, but he won't be able to keep up with the bikes. That point total is also stock without a weapon upgrade or a fusion pistol, but you lose a psyker for denial and smites.
This
But, if you wanted 1 unit of 6 for stratagems purpose, then do a Patrol of 1 HQ, 1x6 Skyweavers 1 Troupe unit.
I would rather have 3 units of 2 to charge 3 different locations on the table turn 1 then 1 unit of 6.
Again, depending if you want stratagems, 1 unit can DS for 1 CP, 1 unit can have -1 to hit via stratagem, 1 unit can have double movement via Twilight paths, 1 unit can have -1 to hit via other powers, 1 unit gains different benefits that might be more important than 3 units charging 3 units.
If you are deep striking Skyweavers, you're doing it wrong. That's 306 pts that you're keeping off of the table and relying on hitting a 9 inch charge on turn 2, which probably won't be against a quality unit. Even if you want to run 1 big unit, never DS them. Moving 16" + advancing 6" and then charging 2D6" is the whole reason to take them.
Frowny wrote: OK, next question. I was hoping to jncorporate and solid sized squad of sky weavers into a mostly DE/coven list. All the harly detachments are so expensive because the Harlie's themselves are..... what's the cheapest way to jncorportaate 6x sky weavers and not too much else? If I use an auxiliary detachment, do I still get a masque bonus?
I'd go with an Outrider detachment:
HQ:
Shadowseer with shuriken pistol = 125
Fast Attack:
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Skyweaver x 2 with zephyr glaive and haywire cannon - 102pts
Total: 431
This is going to be the most effective way to run the bikes, but also the most expensive. You can save 30pts on the bikes by doing shuriken cannons instead of haywire, but that depends on how much anti vehicle you have in your DE section. You could save up to an additional 55 pts by replacing the shadowseer with a troup master, but he won't be able to keep up with the bikes. That point total is also stock without a weapon upgrade or a fusion pistol, but you lose a psyker for denial and smites.
This
But, if you wanted 1 unit of 6 for stratagems purpose, then do a Patrol of 1 HQ, 1x6 Skyweavers 1 Troupe unit.
I would rather have 3 units of 2 to charge 3 different locations on the table turn 1 then 1 unit of 6.
Again, depending if you want stratagems, 1 unit can DS for 1 CP, 1 unit can have -1 to hit via stratagem, 1 unit can have double movement via Twilight paths, 1 unit can have -1 to hit via other powers, 1 unit gains different benefits that might be more important than 3 units charging 3 units.
If you are deep striking Skyweavers, you're doing it wrong. That's 306 pts that you're keeping off of the table and relying on hitting a 9 inch charge on turn 2, which probably won't be against a quality unit. Even if you want to run 1 big unit, never DS them. Moving 16" + advancing 6" and then charging 2D6" is the whole reason to take them.
If you are not DSing Skyweavers vs a insane damage output knight or another shooting tank like super Heavies, or even Armigers, that are in the corner of the table that will target them turn 1, then you are playing them wrong. Its not all about turn 1 charges, you want to sometimes make sure you get 6D6 HWC shots out, Turn 1 charges will not always happen.
Its another option you can do, if you dont want to play with 1x6 you dont have to, but you cant ignore the other options for it, yes DSing is 1 option, but again.... Stratagems and Powers are another option, they effect more models. All i'd suggest was a different way to play them that has good merits, im not saying 3x2 is bad.
You have many ways to play them, its good to see all the possible ways.
Hi all. New to harlequins so please bare with me. A few of my friends are heading to ETC and are playing a few games for some practice. They have asked me to play Harlequins/Drukhari if possible with a provided list. I agreed but made my own one up.
Reavers [13 PL, 260pts] . Arena Champion
. 7x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Reavers [13 PL, 260pts] . Arena Champion
. 7x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Masque Form: The Dreaming Shadow: Sombre Sentinels
+ Elites +
Death Jester [3 PL, 45pts]: Curtainfall
++ Total: [103 PL, 1996pts] ++
Basic Troupe unit to be screen for DJ and prevent him from being targeted and/or charged. 2nd unit of Troups will go into a Starweaver w/ the T master and move into position in my opponents DZ. Shadowseer with FoD and Web dance will back up the Starweavers with an extra -1 to hit and 6+ FnP to make sure nothing dies T1. When everything is in position the last Troupe unit with mass Fusion and 2nd Shadowseer will DS and get into combat.
Skyweavers will harass enemy Vehicles and can be back up for the Starweaver.
Drukhair will simply use its speed and charge to its advantage. Succubus will be inbetween both reavers and just behind the Hellions. Hoping to do a lot of T1 damage to put my opponent off of targeting my Quins.
Using Player or Twilgiht WTrait because a lot of the Gems in both armies are quite expensive so good chance ill get some CPs back and prevent my opponent from activating a few more if possible.
I know some of the list is Drukhari and understand if you cant help there but if you have ideas for the main Quin side please give any info as I have most of every model so could make any detachment.
If you are playing in ETC format, do you know the types of matchups the other team members are planning on using your army for? That would be useful information prior to critiquing the list.
Asmodas wrote: If you are playing in ETC format, do you know the types of matchups the other team members are planning on using your army for? That would be useful information prior to critiquing the list.
Good point! I know 6 list that are going; Craftworld/Ynnari, Deathwatch/Assassins, IG/Custodes, Admech/Knights, Tyranids and Orkz. I believe they want me to try the list against; Hordes, Elite armies, vehicle-based armies and armies with FnP type bonuses ,armies that have model with several wounds and Footslogger lists.
I was considering starting harlies, and was wondering what people's thoughts on foot harlequins was....
For the same price as a single starweaver, you can buy ~7 additional naked bodies. More wounds than a starweaver, and if you are next to a shadowseer, they are similarly survivable against a lot of different attacks. If you can advance them, with the strategm It would appear that they are actually sturdier. Or maybe slightly worse against small arms, but slightly better against big arms since they are immune to D2+ weapons.
Should be able to get a 2nd turn charge as well. 16+2d6 (avg 10.5) =26.5 before charging, which gets you across almost any board.
Not great for pistols though, but maybe 1 detachment of soaring spite skyweaver harlies and 1 detachment of
Thinking
Frozen Stars
Shadowseer:Twilight pathways, Veil of Tears, Warlord:Frozen stars 6+ FNP Troupe Master: Harlequisn Caress
2x ~10-harlequins, 5x caresses, the rest naked. No pistols.
1x 5 harlequins, 2 caresses in WWP, appear somewhere, hopefully make a charge, but if not at least they are cheap.
The whole battalion is a lot cheaper than the classic vehilce mounted with fusions, and has a lot more bodies, although way worse at anti-vehicle, obviously.
Edit: Also, just noticed that I've 'been around the block' and am no longer fresh faced and new! Yay!
Foot is no good, -1 to hit T5 is a huge defense buff for 6 wounds, and has shooting. With mass LoS weapon @ S4+ they dont really stand a chance, against melee armies, or short range armies like Necrons, sure. Against IG, SM, AM, SoF, Custodes, etc.. then no.
As a disclaimer, I haven't tried Foot Harlies personally.
I know a fair amount of people have tried it, and what looks good on paper doesn't seem to translate to success in game. Thought that the web way gate terrain thingy might make it possible, but turns out the Webway Gate is nearly impossible to use in it's current form. Similarly, if we were able to get more than one Twilight Pathways off per turn then things might be different.
Main issue I think is the fact that taking Troupes on foot make them more vulnerable to garbage shooting (bolters, lasguns, splinter, etc) and allows you opponent to aim all anti-tank at fewer transports (because you really can't go ALL foot slogging).
In the Soaring Spite/Frozen Stars example, it paints a very clear picture for your opponent and basically hands him a target priority list, shoot the Starweavers carrying fusion first turn because he doesn't have to worry about the Frozen Stars on foot till second turn.
Now a single Troupe on foot might work, they would be the ones always getting Twilight Pathways to keep up with the rest of the army.
Odrankt wrote: Going against Custodes tomorrow. 2k. What would you guys recommend I bring? He will more than likely have a Telemon as well.
Kisses, Starmist Raiment, Storied Sword and Cegorach's Rose.
Shadowseer for mortal wounds.
The -hit abilities and stratagems are underwhelming vs Bs2.
So Fusion Pistols are great but the Starweaver to bring them into play is less reliable than ususal.
Odrankt wrote: Going against Custodes tomorrow. 2k. What would you guys recommend I bring? He will more than likely have a Telemon as well.
Starmist Raiment for sure and as many -1 to hits as you can. Hit them with as much AP weapons as you can, 4++ is better than 2+/3+, and MW's as well.
You really want to focus down units, they are limited unit amounts, so killing off 2 full units and making them move slower/less to move around is much better than killing 2-3 in 2-3units. you REALLY want to kill the Bikes 1st, ignore the Shield Cap with the 3++/5+++, IMO the best way to deal with him if to MW him to death.
If you are willing, ally in CWE Farseer/Warlocks for Jinx/Doom/Smite etc.. 1 supreme of 1 Farseer and 2 Warlocks (Warlocks on bikes) should be enough.
Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances
++ Total: [98 PL, 1999pts] ++
Does this list look any good? And is the Kiss better than Caress? I understand D3 is better vs Custodes but is it worth only giving them -1 AP rather than the Caress -2 AP?
I like putting Shards on one Shadowseer, that Ld drop helps get some MWs going from the Hallucinogens. Just a thought to get some extra wounds on some Custodes
Hey all, I'd posted on the main tactics page originally but it didn't seem to be getting any responses so I figured you lovely people might have some more insight.
Can anyone confirm how the flip belts should be used? Are they used any time the model moves, including charging? Or is it strictly the movement phase? We're having trouble finding a reliable source. Thanks.
eternalxfl wrote: Hey all, I'd posted on the main tactics page originally but it didn't seem to be getting any responses so I figured you lovely people might have some more insight.
Can anyone confirm how the flip belts should be used? Are they used any time the model moves, including charging? Or is it strictly the movement phase? We're having trouble finding a reliable source. Thanks.
When moving, you ignore all terrain and models via the Belt rules (All movements, charging, fallback, pile in, etc..) if you wanted to move over a unit while on a building that is only 5" thick, you can, just measure horizontally.
If you want to "charge" a unit you MUST measure BTB before you charge (If the model is at an angle then measure diagonally) via the BTB rules and charging rules, then you can ignore all terrain and other models if you are within charging range. If a unit is 15" vertical, but 1" horizontal, you still cant charge. Their flip belts and event he fly keyword does not ignore the 1st rule of charging, only when moving the unit unit. So follow that same example, if they are 12" vertical, but 1" horizontal you will by able to declare a charge and then only need a 1" charge.
"1. Choose Unit to Charge With Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your Charge phase can make a charge move. You may not choose a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, nor one that started the Charge phase within 1" of an enemy. "
"Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move for the unit? A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical distances when making a charge move. Note though that the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to declare the charge in the first place."
I was just reviewing some of my lists and I've been rethinking a few things, mainly as the meta has shifted a bit from the big resurgence of Knights.
A couple thoughts I'm hoping to get some input about
1) previously I've only been taking and advocating for 6 Skyweavers max, however, the fact that Haywire is so good at dropping Titanic tanks/knights I've been thinking about increasing more to the 10-12 range. They are great against vehicles, decent against infantry, just not so good against Monstrous stuff. Backing them up with a Battalion of Soaring Spite fusion Troupes should help mitigate that though.
2) totally unrelated, but has anyone found a purpose for Neuro Disruptors or Star Bolas? The dex is pretty good about everything having a role, but those weapons seem like complete garbage.
Robcio wrote: What's everyone's opinion on Solitaire's with Cegorach's Rose? I love my model but is he any use in comp games?
I've used it many times and its good, but IDK if its good enough against to Suit of Hidden Knives and Starmist Raiment
I agree. Especially if you are going Soaring Spite, a Starmist Raiment troupe master with the Spite WL trait is almost too good to pass up.
Suit of Hidden Knives is far too situational and relies heavily on too much (Stratagem, Pyschic Powers, etc) to be competitive.
I usually run two Relics with Starmist Raiment being the first on a Shadowseer or Troupe Master and Cegorach's Rose on the Solitaire. The Rose allows your Solitaire to assault targets away from your Troupe Master and still get to reroll wounds with the added benefit of murdering enemy characters.
Robcio wrote: What's everyone's opinion on Solitaire's with Cegorach's Rose? I love my model but is he any use in comp games?
I've used it many times and its good, but IDK if its good enough against to Suit of Hidden Knives and Starmist Raiment
I agree. Especially if you are going Soaring Spite, a Starmist Raiment troupe master with the Spite WL trait is almost too good to pass up.
Suit of Hidden Knives is far too situational and relies heavily on too much (Stratagem, Pyschic Powers, etc) to be competitive.
I usually run two Relics with Starmist Raiment being the first on a Shadowseer or Troupe Master and Cegorach's Rose on the Solitaire. The Rose allows your Solitaire to assault targets away from your Troupe Master and still get to reroll wounds with the added benefit of murdering enemy characters.
You wont be saying that when you kill off a DC, shiny spear, or Custodoes unit lol
Robcio wrote: What's everyone's opinion on Solitaire's with Cegorach's Rose? I love my model but is he any use in comp games?
I've used it many times and its good, but IDK if its good enough against to Suit of Hidden Knives and Starmist Raiment
I agree. Especially if you are going Soaring Spite, a Starmist Raiment troupe master with the Spite WL trait is almost too good to pass up.
Suit of Hidden Knives is far too situational and relies heavily on too much (Stratagem, Pyschic Powers, etc) to be competitive.
I usually run two Relics with Starmist Raiment being the first on a Shadowseer or Troupe Master and Cegorach's Rose on the Solitaire. The Rose allows your Solitaire to assault targets away from your Troupe Master and still get to reroll wounds with the added benefit of murdering enemy characters.
You wont be saying that when you kill off a DC, shiny spear, or Custodoes unit lol
You're right, because I won't be using that tactic. I normally take 2 seers in my pure harlequin detachment, and the -1 to hit powers are too situational for my preference. I take the other 4 and if I want to kill a unit such as those, I am doing smites, shards of light (which combo's nicely with hallucinogenic launchers), or mirror of minds. For knights and others of that ilk, I use haywire bikes.
Question, what is the best Masque form for a Harlequin detachment of skyweavers? Im thinking that Frozen Stars has the best combination of trait and stratagem, but I am sorely tempted by the ability to shoot again on 4s upon death.
jifel wrote: Question, what is the best Masque form for a Harlequin detachment of skyweavers? Im thinking that Frozen Stars has the best combination of trait and stratagem, but I am sorely tempted by the ability to shoot again on 4s upon death.
Dreaming shadow is not bad for max units with haywire, but the thing with shooting seems too random and circumstantial, and often manageable for the opponent. What I don't like about it is that it gives only one attack in melee which is often where your bikes get killed. I'd rank Frozen stars first for bikes with glaives. Then, Soaring spite is very good as bikes can advance without penalties to shooting. Arguably, Silent shroud for the stratagem turning off overwatch - most useful on bikes charging turn 1 to lock something shooty.
i play a lot against a SoB player and almost his entire army is hidden inside inmolators and repressors. Do you have any suggestions to deal with this kind of lists without spamming skyweavers? (i only have 6-8 of these)
I currently use some dark reapers with yvraine or just go full fusion with my troupes inside starweavers but flamers and storm bolters obliterate my beloved clowns in about 2 turns :c
If you're using allies as well, Haemonculus covens do fantastic against sisters, as they are higher than T4 for weight of fire and have a 4++ for the meltas. Other than that, Dark Reapers are great vehicle busters. Try adding a farseer and warlock to get Doom and Jinx going as well. From there, Skyweavers are your best ranged anti tank. Even 8 with doom stand a good chance of killing a transport a turn.
It really does come down to how soupy you're willing to get. A pair of Prisms with linked fire will pop a transport each turn. Three with Doom and Jinx support can potentially pop two per turn.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I was just reviewing some of my lists and I've been rethinking a few things, mainly as the meta has shifted a bit from the big resurgence of Knights.
A couple thoughts I'm hoping to get some input about
1) previously I've only been taking and advocating for 6 Skyweavers max, however, the fact that Haywire is so good at dropping Titanic tanks/knights I've been thinking about increasing more to the 10-12 range. They are great against vehicles, decent against infantry, just not so good against Monstrous stuff. Backing them up with a Battalion of Soaring Spite fusion Troupes should help mitigate that though.
2) totally unrelated, but has anyone found a purpose for Neuro Disruptors or Star Bolas? The dex is pretty good about everything having a role, but those weapons seem like complete garbage.
Thoughts?
1) In my experience, Skyweavers are absolutely mandatory for harlie list, and more you can take them the better. It's true that against monstrous creatures they aren't very good, but just about anything else will melt like snow before them, and they can take surprising amounts of fire due to their toughness and three wounds. I currently field 2 x 6 squads of them, and eventually plan to rise that to three full squads.
2) Star Bolas are bit of a wild-card, but since they have range of 12" they aren't as useless as other grenade-type weapons. I usually take one for every Skyweaver squad, and thus far they have managed to not be completely useless, scoring several kills in each game. Neuro Disruptor is trash, and only reason to take it is for Shadowseer, since you can't take fusion pistol for him/her AND only if you have ten points left over after everything else.
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Robcio wrote: What's everyone's opinion on Solitaire's with Cegorach's Rose? I love my model but is he any use in comp games?
IMHO Solitaire is currently useless as a unit in itself. Wasting a relic on it, be it any relic, has always in my games ended up being complete...waste of a relic slot that could do something useful if given to someone else. The thing with Solitaire is simply that because Harlequins on average are melee-oriented and fast, spending almost hundred points on one model that is only slightly better than the rest is pointless. With the amount you spend on Solitaire you can take another Troupe Master w/ fusion pistol and due to him buffing up everyone else around it simply is better investment of points.
Solitaire would need some kind of buff to make it competitive; inherent deep-strike(without using CP), some kind of aura, fusion pistol or just much better statline to make it worthwhile. Now it's essentially a overly hyped melee hero that is good at curb-stomping infantry squads, but as all harlies are good at doing that I see no point in using it. Perhaps if it would cost only 60-70 points w/ wargear AND you could take more than one of them it could be useful as it is, but not with the current limitations and cost.
The solitaire is amazing. With the rose he is a character killer. Put him in a transport and he has a move range of 15" plus 3d6 on turn 1 with the use of blitz. Then you get 2d6 to charge, which means you can get into combat with whatever you'd like. His specialty is speed and the ability to wipe out a support character before they can do anything. You TM isn't granting you that on turn 1.
mokoshkana wrote: The solitaire is amazing. With the rose he is a character killer. Put him in a transport and he has a move range of 15" plus 3d6 on turn 1 with the use of blitz. Then you get 2d6 to charge, which means you can get into combat with whatever you'd like. His specialty is speed and the ability to wipe out a support character before they can do anything. You TM isn't granting you that on turn 1.
How can you accomplish this? Remember that Solitaire can't disembark from transport on the turn 1 if the transport has moved - so no blitzing on turn 1. It's true that even without transport Solitaire is fast, and depending on deployment can reach enemy units on turn 1. However, in practice this doesn't work out so well. Either you don't get the first turn, in which case Solitaire usually gets shot before doing anything, or you fail both blitz and charge rolls and solitaire still gets shot without accomplishing anything. Sometimes you do get to the enemy units on turn 1, but unless you're facing really squishy characters Solitaire isn't going to take them down, not even with Cegorach's Rose. Spending ~100 pts and a relic slot for this is wasteful.
