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Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 04:16:19


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Here is a thread pre-stunk for all your The Last Jedi-related thread-stinking needs. Please keep the Solo thread clean. Plop all your Holdo observations here, where they can be quarantined. Thank you.


I'll start off: what is the deal with starcruiser food?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 04:40:45


Post by: Manchu


I mean, who are these people?

We're almost halfway through the year and TLJ remains just as controversial as when it was released this past December. Personally, TLJ utterly crushed whatever renewed interest in Star Wars that The Force Awakens inspired in me. In terms of acting and dialogue, TLJ is nowhere near as laughably incompetent as Lucas's prequels. At the same time, however, TLJ isn't as interesting as any of the prequels, visually or thematically. No less entrenched in the mythology (if not the spirit) of the OT than TFA, TLJ nonetheless manages to hit every possible wrong note from misinterpreting classic characters to completely misusing new ones. TLJ rightfully joins the ranks of such notorious failures as The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. While I am loath to conclude it is worse than either of those, it's certianly no better.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 07:29:37


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I think I've come to terms with it, much like GW, MtG and most mainstream comics I've conceded I'm not the target audience anymore, no point in becoming engrumpled, just move on and take my spending elsewhere

Although I fully reserve the right to point and laugh at KK the next time she's say something so silly even The Donald would be stunned


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 11:08:08


Post by: Mr Morden


Hated the film - felt I had wasted my time and money in going to the cinema,

IMO Its not that it is a bad "Star Wars" film but that it is a BAD film in general, what makes it worse is critics (and others) repeatedly and somehow claiming it is visionary, intelligent or clever and then on the counter punch claiming that anyone who disagrees is a racist/Sexist pig and/or Rapid star Wars fan who can't stand change.

My problems were:

The Plot (or lack of) - virtually nothing made any sense both internally or as part oft eh general film background, people just wondered into scenes and did stuff for no reason other than that was what they were told to do and its not subtle - its crowbarred in to the plot. Again and Again.
The Pace (or lack of) - the sheer mind numbing tedium of the "chase" where ships crawl across a vaguely pretty background - again and again and a occasionally one shoots a gun, there is no sense of drama or indeed hurry in anyone - the First Order pilots just sit in their fights in the ships and the rest of them probably play cards. The Ship of Fools crew led by incompetents and a whole load of poor plot reasons do nothing either.
Characters (or lack of) - nothing is really explored, people constantly do stupid things for stupid reasons and are called hero's and then someone else does the same thing and is a villain - its shockingly bad - lastly almost everyone is unlikeable in what should be a fun family film.
The Reviews: Fundamentally dishonest which either points to corruption or coercion or a mixture of both.

The worst film I have seen on any medium in years.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 13:04:16


Post by: Galef


Aside from Luke dying and a few wtf moments (like Luke not using the green lightsaber at the end), I really enjoyed the movie.
There are some flaws, but overall the movie is about learning from your mistakes, so the characters have to make them to learn from them.

Also, this is the middle part of the trilogy, so some things might get explained in ep IX, so I'm holding final judgment on TLJ until then.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 13:17:24


Post by: Mr Morden


 Galef wrote:
Aside from Luke dying and a few wtf moments (like Luke not using the green lightsaber at the end), I really enjoyed the movie.
There are some flaws, but overall the movie is about learning from your mistakes, so the characters have to make them to learn from them.

Also, this is the middle part of the trilogy, so some things might get explained in ep IX, so I'm holding final judgment on TLJ until then.


See that's the bit I don't get, now mistakes are fine. But people did the exact same thing and one is a idiot and one is a hero - is suicide to save your friends heroic or stupid - the film didn't know. so its fine to hyperspace ram a giant ship but definitely not a giant gun. hmm ok that's ......dumb.

The very few rebels who survived their idiot leaders on the Ship of Fools might figure its a mistake to follow and I guess same with the First Order but I doubt it.

but hey some weird horses got released from their cages for a couple of hours before being shot or recaptured so that's a major rebel victory right?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 13:29:14


Post by: ingtaer


I just don't get why they over writ the really bad EU to make an even worse even new canon. Imagine a film series based upon Wraith Squadron filmed like 633Sqdr updated for modern graphics updated for SW. How epic would that be.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 13:32:11


Post by: Easy E


After the less than box office success (By Star Wars standards) of TLJ, is Rian Johnson still slated to get his own Star Wars Trilogy where he can subvert all expectations to his own delight.... or has that been canned or in danger at this point?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 13:36:01


Post by: Mr Morden


 Easy E wrote:
After the less than box office success (By Star Wars standards) of TLJ, is Rian Johnson still slated to get his own Star Wars Trilogy where he can subvert all expectations to his own delight.... or has that been canned or in danger at this point?


Hopefully not - but probably still carry on making crap.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 14:24:17


Post by: Formosa


 ingtaer wrote:
I just don't get why they over writ the really bad EU to make an even worse even new canon. Imagine a film series based upon Wraith Squadron filmed like 633Sqdr updated for modern graphics updated for SW. How epic would that be.



Or the thrawn trilogy that shows another side to the imperials, at this point I’m writing off Disney wars as pure fan fiction and the EU as bad as it was at times, the true sequels, Disney can claim they are not canon anymore but until they produce something equal in quality, I’m ignoring them.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 14:52:06


Post by: Mysterio


I don't know, I thought Kylo Ren looked pretty good in it...

NSFW

Spoiler:







Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 14:55:25


Post by: Manchu


Haha, I guess that is the "male gaze" version of him in TLJ, that gave Rey a girl boner.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 15:07:49


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


Remember guys, any complaints you have about movie making problems are just pedantry, and your real problem is that you secretly, or not secretly, hate women.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 15:09:13


Post by: Mr Morden


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Remember guys, any complaints you have about movie making problems are just pedantry, and your real problem is that you secretly, or not secretly, hate women.


Ah yes I had forgotten that one - weird how it only manifests to this gem of the filmmaking art.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 15:12:28


Post by: Manchu


Not only this gem, but also Sony's Ghostbusters remake. And probably this will be a go to countermarketing strategy going forward.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 15:17:31


Post by: Mr Morden


 Manchu wrote:
Not only this gem, but also Sony's Ghostbusters remake. And probably this will be a go to countermarketing strategy going forward.


Very effective I expect - especially for those of us who only think we know why we didn't like a film and actually we are unaware of the "true" reason - which of course the more enlightened amongst do know but can't tell us for...reasons.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 15:17:56


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Remember guys, any complaints you have about movie making problems are just pedantry, and your real problem is that you secretly, or not secretly, hate women.


Nope just KK but as per playground rules she started it (and maybe ones who can't act beyond essentially a female David Mitchell)


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 15:20:01


Post by: LunarSol


I had my issues when I first saw TLJ, but they've largely fallen aside as I've rewatched it. There are still parts I think the movie is trying too hard to be unappealing, there's a couple of things I'd have rather seen cut for other things or in general to give it a shorter runtime, but taken on the whole it might be bubbling up towards my favorite of the films.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 15:21:05


Post by: ZebioLizard2


I'm still curious about Rose.. I mean, not counting any of the actual plotlines..

But was she planted to prevent people from running away because of her dedication to the cause? Does the Resistance now need Commissars to keep people from retreating from certain death with a powerful taser that's strong enough to not only slam people into walls to knock them unconscious, but keep them utterly paralyzed from the neck down while she finds a cart to drag them off to brig.

Does she have rank to brig people? Because at this point it seems like the resistance is now press ganging people to continue fighting for them at this point given such actions.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 16:24:49


Post by: Mr Morden


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm still curious about Rose.. I mean, not counting any of the actual plotlines..

But was she planted to prevent people from running away because of her dedication to the cause? Does the Resistance now need Commissars to keep people from retreating from certain death with a powerful taser that's strong enough to not only slam people into walls to knock them unconscious, but keep them utterly paralyzed from the neck down while she finds a cart to drag them off to brig.

Does she have rank to brig people? Because at this point it seems like the resistance is now press ganging people to continue fighting for them at this point given such actions.


Its clear that like some any other scenes, the director and team didn't think about anything other than the scene I don't think - remember they are all stuck on the ship with no way to escape - err except the things they can use to escape the ship......right. Maybe the people in the brig had figured out that the command crew were so unbelievably incompetent and thought - screw this.

I think they said something about people trying to get away and she was there to stop them - probably because she was as idiotic as the rest of the command crew.

The republic military who turned into the resistance / rebels in one day (yeah think about that and what it says about the people in it) probably had some form of rank structure but the ship of fools did not seem to know what it was or in fact who anyone was, seriously they made the crew and scientists aboard the Prometheus look good.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 16:49:21


Post by: LunarSol


Resistance members appear to be more or less paid soldiers and not just volunteers. I don't think any military organization is particularly cool with people just leaving when they don't feel like fighting anymore, particularly if they do so by stealing pods for themselves designed to let multiple people escape.




Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 16:50:16


Post by: KTG17


A white woman.
A black male.
A hispanic male.
A woman of asian decent.

The bad guys are all white of course.

By accident? Of course not.

I am sure this satisfies many of those who have demands for more diversity, but not me. I don't see Native American characters. Or Desi. Where are those? Why do we have to wait? I mean its 2018. Do all lead characters have to be white? Even if a woman? Rey is probably going to turn out to be more powerful than Vader and Luke combined. Why does a character like that have to be white? I am so sick of this. Actually, we aren't even supposed to use race as a reference anymore. To be PC, we need to use ethnicity. And there are over 5,000 different ethnic groups. I am so sick of not only making the white people be the leaders and salvation for the other ethnic groups in the universe, but the pandering that goes on for those other ethnicities to make them feel included. TLF is one big white feminist film. All the major decision makers in the rebellion are white and female. One big white girls club. The males are either cowardly or insubordinate. Why can't there be a strong male of Zambo ethnicity? Or a young transgender apprentice of Welsh decent, who is heavy on the accent, but also a courageous fighter and is funny and rarely fails? I am just so tired of this crap. Who are these films made for? Racist and sexist fans? These movies are released globally! Its about time they represent everyone!

I WANT MORE INCLUSION! LESS ALIENS AND MORE SAMOANS!


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 16:55:24


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I think at the very core of the issue was that the people who made the film were all very focused on filmmaker concerns and paid almost no attention to any of the other parts necessary for a good story. Film critics, educated in all the film making arts, judge the film by their concerns, the same aspects of film making that RJ and crew actually cared about, so it gives an experience that hits all their buttons. For anyone who wanted anything else out of the film, like plot, consistency, attention to non-cinematic details, world building, or even characterization, the movie doesn't bother to cater to them, and they get an unpleasant experience.

Critics may rave about use of color, but other movie goers just want to know why the characters keep doing the stupid things they are doing.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 17:00:33


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 LunarSol wrote:
Resistance members appear to be more or less paid soldiers and not just volunteers. I don't think any military organization is particularly cool with people just leaving when they don't feel like fighting anymore, particularly if they do so by stealing pods for themselves designed to let multiple people escape.

I'm not necessarily sure many of them were paid soldiers given that the Resistance is made up of individuals who weren't associated with a primary government. The primary government in TFA denied them and thus Leia had to round up people to work for her in order to fight the First Order. And given that in TLJ many planets denied them as well it seems like they were just made up of individuals for the cause rather then being actual soldiers.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 17:29:15


Post by: Manchu


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
plot, consistency, attention to non-cinematic details, world building, or even characterization
Surely Roger Ebert wasn't the only critic who considered these elements to be important?
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm not necessarily sure many of them were paid soldiers given that the Resistance is made up of individuals who weren't associated with a primary government.
From what I understand (this wasn't explained in the movies, obviously) the Resistance is made up of people who support the Republic but don't think the Republic takes the threat of the First Order seriously enough. They seem unlikely to be anything other than volunteers.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 17:37:54


Post by: Kilkrazy


http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

SW TLJ made $1.3 billion by April 19th. Is that particularly bad?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 17:48:04


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Manchu wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
plot, consistency, attention to non-cinematic details, world building, or even characterization
Surely Roger Ebert wasn't the only critic who considered these elements to be important?
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm not necessarily sure many of them were paid soldiers given that the Resistance is made up of individuals who weren't associated with a primary government.
From what I understand (this wasn't explained in the movies, obviously) the Resistance is made up of people who support the Republic but don't think the Republic takes the threat of the First Order seriously enough. They seem unlikely to be anything other than volunteers.


A lot of critics seem to lose perspective. I'm not sure if it's because film education becomes a hammer in search of nails, or because they are inundated with films beyond films, or because there is some inherent personality quirk in people who choose to become film critics.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 17:49:05


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Depends Infinity War made that and a bit more in just over a month, so whilst its not spare change its most likely under expectation (Awakens nudged just over 2b)


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 17:53:33


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Kilkrazy wrote:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

SW TLJ made $1.3 billion by April 19th. Is that particularly bad?


Star Wars: the Rekt Litterbox would make 1.3 billion. You can't compare the most lucrative property in history to schmoe movies like Transformers and decide everything is ok. TLJ making 1.3 Billion is like Justice League making 500 million: a pyrrhic success that indicates looming disaster, evidence of a drastic miscalculation somewhere near the core of the brand. Granted, it's not too late for Disney to Marvel-up the Star Wars franchise, but I doubt episode 9 will prove anything other than DisneyWars is still flailing about.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 17:56:07


Post by: Manchu


 Kilkrazy wrote:
SW TLJ made $1.3 billion by April 19th. Is that particularly bad?
It doesn't seem so just stated outright but there is a guy who went through these numbers and showed how Disney could have made more money at this point investing the price of LucasFilm on the stock market than making movies, which doesn't even account for the cost of the pictures over and above the expense of buying the IP. Now the obvious counterpoint is that Disney stands to make who knows what kind of money "in the long run" but there's really no substance there apart from a best case scenario assumption ... and the best case scenario played out for TFA but not for R1 or TLJ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
film education becomes a hammer in search of nails
I think the more apt cliche, as far as TLJ goes, is about forests and trees. However - I honestly don't think the issue is having some kind of overly sophisticated understanding of cinema. The positive reviews I have read don't make a convincing case on the basis of film criticism. Nor is it an issue of "what the film should have been" (according to those awful, misogynistic mega fans) versus what it is. A whole nation of people who don't care about SW gave it the most poignant review possible - less than two weeks running in Chinese theaters.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 18:36:55


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Kilkrazy wrote:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

SW TLJ made $1.3 billion by April 19th. Is that particularly bad?
The main issues is that it sold terribly in China as a major market, and the toy sales are abysmal for a Star Wars film.

There's still also the issue of Disney still attempting to hopefully regain the cash they spent to gain the Star Wars license.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 18:45:29


Post by: gorgon


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

SW TLJ made $1.3 billion by April 19th. Is that particularly bad?
The main issues is that it sold terribly in China as a major market, and the toy sales are abysmal for a Star Wars film.

There's still also the issue of Disney still attempting to hopefully regain the cash they spent to gain the Star Wars license.


They only spent $4 bil for Lucasfilm. I hardly think Disney is worried about their investment.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 18:48:27


Post by: LunarSol


 Manchu wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
plot, consistency, attention to non-cinematic details, world building, or even characterization
Surely Roger Ebert wasn't the only critic who considered these elements to be important?
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm not necessarily sure many of them were paid soldiers given that the Resistance is made up of individuals who weren't associated with a primary government.
From what I understand (this wasn't explained in the movies, obviously) the Resistance is made up of people who support the Republic but don't think the Republic takes the threat of the First Order seriously enough. They seem unlikely to be anything other than volunteers.


The movies do a bad job of explaining the Resistance in general, but they are essentially a PMC paid for by Leia and other wealthy members of the Republic that think its a worthwhile cause. They may largely be volunteers, but there's no way this isn't their primary occupation. There's no way they're all working full time jobs and moonlighting as fighter pilots.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 18:53:17


Post by: Maniac_nmt


If you are craving 'Star Wars' but don't like where the last two films have gone, try:

https://www.galacticoutlaws.com/

It is a pretty good alternate reality Star Wars.

The Republic is corrupt and oppresses its people, the Stormtroopers are the good guys, Jango Fett/Bobba Fett is awesome, the 'Rebellion' is a circus sideshow of idiots, the 'Force' is alien and scary as all get out, the Dark Side is the more 'common' variety, Yoda is a sadistic little sod that we all secretly suspect he is in the films...

It also mashes in Battle Star Galactica (mixing Cylon's and Battledroids together), James Bond, Warhammer 40k (there is a race of 'beastmen' who worship the '4 gods' and are generally bringers of 'chaos', coupled with a 'warp' and 'dark prophets' who led large elements of humanity off the deep end), and others.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 18:53:48


Post by: KTG17


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
and the toy sales are abysmal for a Star Wars film.


I think toy play habits among kids has really changed over the years. Toys R Us going out of business is a testament to that. Yes, toys can still be bought online, but it was trips to the toy store as a kid that really got me excited to see what was out there.

Also, I have never seen, nor expect to see, many girls playing with Star Wars toys. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THEY CANNOT, I just don't see them doing it. Action figures and guns and light sabers are more of a boy thing. I don't see many boys wanting to buy toys for Hunger Games, Divergent whatever, or films like that. So why would they for the new trilogy.

Kids kind of act out their imagination through their toys. I did. I didn't need to know what Darth Vader, Fett, or Storm Troopers looked like under their helmets. I decided all that. I also was more inclined to play with figures I felt a connection with, like Han and Luke. I rarely picked up Leia. And if I were a kid today, I wouldnt be picking up Rey very often. My other choices? A coward and 'the best pilot in the galaxy'? Lame. I mean, all the males in TLJ suck. The sellout Cato guy, Luke, there all neutered or douchebags. Why would I want to buy any of those to play with. To have them do what? Be the douchebags that they are? So Rey can shine even more? No.

So yeah, aside from the nostalgia that its Star Wars, they are not inspiring.

And thats what Kathleen Kennedy and Disney doesn't understand by alienating their hardcore 'fanboys' by trying to knock down walls and be more inclusive. They could have found a better way to merge everything but they gave the thumbs up to one group and the middle finger to the other.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 18:54:52


Post by: Galef


 gorgon wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

SW TLJ made $1.3 billion by April 19th. Is that particularly bad?
The main issues is that it sold terribly in China as a major market, and the toy sales are abysmal for a Star Wars film.

There's still also the issue of Disney still attempting to hopefully regain the cash they spent to gain the Star Wars license.


They only spent $4 bil for Lucasfilm. I hardly think Disney is worried about their investment.


Yeah, and they got half that investment back on TFA alone. I'm sure that they made back that $4bil long before TLJ.

-


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 18:56:17


Post by: Manchu


 LunarSol wrote:
There's no way they're all working full time jobs and moonlighting as fighter pilots.
But that’s not what volunteers means in a military context. See e.g., American expats fighting in the Spanish Civil War.

The issue is not whether being in the Resistance is their primary occupation (as opposed to a hobby?) but whether they are mercenaries ready to defect when the tide turns or ideological true believers.

The latter is the sense in which they are volunteers.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 19:04:30


Post by: Kilkrazy


I'm still not clear if $1.3 billion in four months is bad or good?



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 19:07:14


Post by: KTG17


Actually I think the expectation is that it should be earning more. Based on what the film cost to make versus the return and so on.

Seems ridiculous when you are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars, but from everything I have read and hear, Disney is not only concerned about the performance at the peak of interest, but concern going forward. I am having a hard time imagining how future Star Wars movies are going to lure audiences when the very characters used to rope them in are all killed off.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 19:27:23


Post by: Manchu


 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm still not clear if $1.3 billion in four months is bad or good?
What's unclear? It's underwhelming, considering it was the most anticipated movie since its predecessor did much better business in 2015.
 gorgon wrote:
I hardly think Disney is worried about their investment.
I think they are worried and are right to be worried. The idea wasn't to earn back $4 billion (which they haven't yet) but to turn $4 billion into (at least) tens of billions, which seems more and more doubtful.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 19:33:20


Post by: Frazzled


 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm still not clear if $1.3 billion in four months is bad or good?

it's good, but the forecast were for substantially better.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 19:36:12


Post by: KTG17


 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm still not clear if $1.3 billion in four months is bad or good?



Look at what Disney's stock price has done in recent years:

https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=DIS

Since 2015... do you think investors should be happy about this, or not?

For a company that has its hands in as much entertainment as it does, its amazing this isn't in the $200s.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/16 23:36:38


Post by: Vulcan


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Remember guys, any complaints you have about movie making problems are just pedantry, and your real problem is that you secretly, or not secretly, hate women.


That must be why both Black Panther (featuring no less than FOUR strong characters who happened to be women) and Wonder Woman (where the title character is a strong character who happens to be a woman) all got exactly the same type and level of criticism and critical review by the fans.

Oh, wait....


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 00:03:15


Post by: Maniac_nmt


 Vulcan wrote:
 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Remember guys, any complaints you have about movie making problems are just pedantry, and your real problem is that you secretly, or not secretly, hate women.


That must be why both Black Panther (featuring no less than FOUR strong characters who happened to be women) and Wonder Woman (where the title character is a strong character who happens to be a woman) all got exactly the same type and level of criticism and critical review by the fans.

Oh, wait....


I think he was being sarcastic.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 00:13:03


Post by: Vulcan


I know. But I think my counter to the 'you're all just misogynists' argument is pretty decisive, don't you?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 01:04:17


Post by: sirlynchmob


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Remember guys, any complaints you have about movie making problems are just pedantry, and your real problem is that you secretly, or not secretly, hate women.


ya and it will be fun to see how they try to spin that for the solo movie.

oh you hated the solo movie, I guess you're just a man hating feminist. You just don't like strong male characters.

they won't be able to use the SJW handbook to defend this movie, if it's bad and it's reviews and ratings are bad, they're going to have to live with it.

LOL of course they won't, I can't wait to hear why I don't like solo.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 01:49:23


Post by: Manchu


First, let’s see whether Han is istrong in the movie ... or does he get Poe’d/Finn’d?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 02:35:33


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 Manchu wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
film education becomes a hammer in search of nails
I think the more apt cliche, as far as TLJ goes, is about forests and trees. However - I honestly don't think the issue is having some kind of overly sophisticated understanding of cinema. The positive reviews I have read don't make a convincing case on the basis of film criticism. Nor is it an issue of "what the film should have been" (according to those awful, misogynistic mega fans) versus what it is. A whole nation of people who don't care about SW gave it the most poignant review possible - less than two weeks running in Chinese theaters.


Which is funny, because I would have sworn Rose's rant about capitalism was intended to really appeal to them.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 02:39:36


Post by: Peregrine


 Manchu wrote:
I think they are worried and are right to be worried. The idea wasn't to earn back $4 billion (which they haven't yet) but to turn $4 billion into (at least) tens of billions, which seems more and more doubtful.


They might not have made $4 billion on ticket sales, but that's not the point of Star Wars. The movies are almost a secondary element, little more than advertising for the merchandise sales. Except, unlike normal advertising, instead of paying to advertise to the customer you get the customers to hand over billions of dollars for the privilege of watching your toy commercials.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 02:55:32


Post by: master of ordinance


text removed.

Don't use language like this on dakka.

Reds8n


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 03:06:11


Post by: Peregrine


Ah yes, the classic "there aren't enough hot girls for me to look at" criticism. And people wonder why it's tempting to point out how much criticism of the movie is anti-SJW nonsense by people with an ideological agenda (and a pretty awful one) rather than legitimate flaws in the movie.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 03:08:17


Post by: epronovost


I thought the Last Jedi was OK. It had awesome stuff. All the scenes with Rey, Luke and Ren were really cool. The casino scenes were pointless and stupid. The duel between Phasma and Finn came too soon and lacked gravitas. I started to appreciate the movie a little bit more when I realised that, as a kid, I would have loved it. As an adult, the morality play was too heavy handed in the casino scene and many of the characters were caricatural, but children movie's characters frequently are. Watching back the original trilogy, the characters were just as caricatural. The morality play was just as heavy handed. As a children movie, it's pretty damn good. It as great artistic direction, the characters are rather compelling, it presents good morals and as fairly decent action parts.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 05:35:50


Post by: Scrabb


Watch Maz's scenes in TFA and then watch her guest appearance in TLJ.




Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 05:41:31


Post by: Manchu


 Peregrine wrote:
The movies are almost a secondary element, little more than advertising for the merchandise sales.
True enough but even merchandise sales seem to be suffering.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 05:46:38


Post by: Peregrine


 Manchu wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
The movies are almost a secondary element, little more than advertising for the merchandise sales.
True enough but even merchandise sales seem to be suffering.


Perhaps, but it makes a huge difference in answering the question of whether Disney got a sufficient return on their investment to justify the purchase price. And I know that we as fans would prefer a sustainable long term approach over Disney milking the cash cow to death until they replace the IP with the next big thing, but can you really make that argument from the point of view of Disney executives? If Disney pays $4 billion for the IP and makes $20 billion before the franchise dies can you really call that a failure?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 06:08:32


Post by: Manchu


It really depends on how long the long run ends up being, especially in terms of how quickly the IP is worn thin.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 08:17:36


Post by: Mr Morden


 Vulcan wrote:
I know. But I think my counter to the 'you're all just misogynists' argument is pretty decisive, don't you?


Not sure - which side of the argument are you on?

I really enjoyed Black Panther and Wonder Woman - not because they had black or female leads but because they were really enjoyable films - equality is only truly achieved when the fact that there was a black, white, blue, pink, male , female or other lead was not actually relevant or even commented on.

The constant defence of TLJ as being somehow a new thing in having a female lead in a action film and that critics of the film - even if you outlined the exact reasons why you felt that the plot, characters and pacing were very poor - was a result of obvious or hidden (even to the commenter) sexist tendencies was as weak as the film itself.

As an adult, the morality play was too heavy handed in the casino scene and many of the characters were caricatural, but children movie's characters frequently are


I found their moral stance very odd in the film - occasionally the people who made it try and crowbar in some grey areas

- like "oHH no the Rebels (which are also the government until one day before the film) buy weapons from the same people as the bad guys" - wow social commentary mastery - not.

There is also the issue of suicide to save your friends is good, except its not - but then it is again - but only if certain people do it - and en then maybe.

And its better to let some magic horses out for a brief ride than help some slave children.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 08:24:12


Post by: Peregrine


 Manchu wrote:
It really depends on how long the long run ends up being, especially in terms of how quickly the IP is worn thin.


Of course, and none of us have all of the numbers to do more than speculate. My point was just that adding up ticket sales alone doesn't show the entire picture, and that Disney's goal of making a profitable business transaction is not necessarily aligned with the fans' goal of having good Star Wars movies for a long time. If Disney kills the franchise within 10 years by shoveling out half-finished garbage but makes obscene amounts of money from merchandise sales over that time period then perhaps Disney's shareholders are still satisfied with the outcome of their investment. In fact the shareholders might be happier with that outcome than with a sustainable long-term plan, as it gives immediate profits in their pockets and once Star Wars is dead Disney can just move on to milking the cash cow of the next big thing. A sustainable plan, on the other hand, takes much longer to get profits in shareholder pockets and who cares if Star Wars is still around in 50 years when the primary shareholders might not even be alive anymore at that point.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 13:34:59


Post by: Kilkrazy


The argument about SW TLF isn't whether it's half-arsed. The argument is whether it's terrible or really rather good. From that perspective it isn't a half-arsed attempt at a blockbuster, it's a fully-arsed blockbuster which somehow divided the audience.

I think the SW franchise is a two-edged sword. Disney have to keep producing the blockbusters to enable the spin-off films (Rogue One, Solo) to find an audience. The question is whether the new style Disney blockbusters can find an audience beyond the hardcore fans who seem to have hated TLJ.

Or maybe it's super-fans who will be the main audience for the spin-offs.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 13:52:51


Post by: Easy E


I think the biggest "problem" for me was I wanted simple morality play narratives of good vs. evil and I got Nihilism instead.

In this movie, essentially "Nothing Mattered". It didn;t matter what you did, it just didn't matter.

Spoiler:

Blew up the Dreadnought.... but the enemy fleet is still on your tail!
Search for your parents..... They aren't important.
Killed Leia and Luke.... No you didn't Leia lived and Luke faded away on his own.
Destroyed the resistance.... except they escaped.
Defeated the Empire.... No, they came back
Force was re-balanced.... except it wasn't.
Destroyed the sacred texts.... No, wrong again!
Killed Snoke.... but no one actually cares.
Rescued the animals.... except you really didn't.
Found the master hacker..... except he ended up being unhelpful

Essentially every single element of the movie followed this exact same pattern of something happened! But it doesn't matter because of X.


This movie only succeeded on one level. It was Theatre of the Absurd. If that was the intention, then congrats. You win and I bow to your mastery of creating Star Seinfeld.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 14:22:00


Post by: Elbows


On one hand, I hated The Last Jedi. Abysmal, embarrassing attempt at a film. On the other hand, it made The Force Awakens appear much better (a movie which I walked out of thinking "meh"). Sometimes you need something really awful to make you reconsider how you feel about other things.

Ignoring the piss-poor general script, wandering plot, and sub-par action scenes, the film didn't tell a story, didn't accomplish anything, and undid everything from the previous film in an almost infantile temper tantrum. While this likely didn't happen, it came off as the end result of a meeting between directors which ended poorly. "I disagree with Abrams, I'll show him!" ---- and the second director subsequently just undid everything he could possibly do (always a great idea mid-trilogy....literally a set of films intended to tell a single contiguous story...) as fast as possible.

In theatre and when doing cooperative writing, etc. one of the main premises is "never say no". It's not as black and white as it sounds, but it is a general rule to not undo, refuse, or go against something another actor has improvised - as it ruins whatever you're trying to cooperatively build. It puts the other actor in a serious bind, and can stop a skit/scene/act dead in its tracks. That's how I felt watching The Last Jedi. And that's not praise.

As with all films which are divisive, the worst result is the "I know better than you" crowd. Or the "Well, you just missed what it was really saying...a truth only a handful of us have seen.", etc. You liked The Last Jedi? Good for you - but don't pretend you're part of some Star Wars based illuminati organization which holds the keys to true enlightenment. That gak is insufferable.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 14:37:11


Post by: LunarSol


 Easy E wrote:
I think the biggest "problem" for me was I wanted simple morality play narratives of good vs. evil and I got Nihilism instead.

In this movie, essentially "Nothing Mattered". It didn;t matter what you did, it just didn't matter.

Spoiler:

Blew up the Dreadnought.... but the enemy fleet is still on your tail!
Search for your parents..... They aren't important.
Killed Leia and Luke.... No you didn't Leia lived and Luke faded away on his own.
Destroyed the resistance.... except they escaped.
Defeated the Empire.... No, they came back
Force was re-balanced.... except it wasn't.
Destroyed the sacred texts.... No, wrong again!
Killed Snoke.... but no one actually cares.
Rescued the animals.... except you really didn't.
Found the master hacker..... except he ended up being unhelpful

Essentially every single element of the movie followed this exact same pattern of something happened! But it doesn't matter because of X.


This movie only succeeded on one level. It was Theatre of the Absurd. If that was the intention, then congrats. You win and I bow to your mastery of creating Star Seinfeld.


This bothered me more the first time I saw the movie than the second. The movie is clearly and very intentionally subverting expectations, but to a large degree that only has that effect when you're not expecting it. On rewatch, the only reason these things feel out of place is because I've come to expect Star Wars to conform to a pretty rigid formula. Seeing the potential of the series to break out of its rut and go a new direction is part of what's been bumping it up my rankings on repeated viewings.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 14:56:55


Post by: Kilkrazy


To me there are obvious parallels between TLJ and TESB in the same way there are obvious parallels between ANH and TFA.

To look at the top line, the previous films finish on a high with the Rebellion have administered a serious defeat to the Empire. The next films start with the Rebellion unexpectedly under attack, and having to flee from the Imperial fleet, which they accomplish with some heroics and losses. There's even a mirror parallel element of the big ground battles occuring on deserted planets -- ice at the beginning of TESB and salt desert at the end of TLJ.

At the end of both films the Rebellion has suffered severe losses -- heroes dead, injured or captured -- and they have been kicked off their sanctuary planet and have to flee into deep space. Yet there is an element of hope in the final scene. In TESB Luke gets his hand back and they gaze at the galaxy. In TLJ the child slaves are quietly spreading the word of the Rebellion.

I can't see how this is meaningless or nihilistic. It's necessary for the heroes to suffer losses and defeats or there is no point in their heroics.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 15:04:08


Post by: ZebioLizard2


One thing that stands out between that is that at the end of ANH is that it's shown that people and planets are still willing to stand behind the Rebellion and help fight the Empire..

The Resistance is actively spurned and turned away by the remaining government, and many alien planets aren't willing to give them the time of day to help them. The First Order is apparently as large as the Empire now and many planets are coming under thrall to them almost willingly. It also seems to help that despite being humancentric the First Order tolerates aliens on a better basis then the Empire did given how many on Canto Blight were rich aliens who were willingly selling weaponry to the First Order and reaping the benefits.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 15:10:27


Post by: Easy E


 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me there are obvious parallels between TLJ and TESB in the same way there are obvious parallels between ANH and TFA.

To look at the top line, the previous films finish on a high with the Rebellion have administered a serious defeat to the Empire. The next films start with the Rebellion unexpectedly under attack, and having to flee from the Imperial fleet, which they accomplish with some heroics and losses. There's even a mirror parallel element of the big ground battles occuring on deserted planets -- ice at the beginning of TESB and salt desert at the end of TLJ.

At the end of both films the Rebellion has suffered severe losses -- heroes dead, injured or captured -- and they have been kicked off their sanctuary planet and have to flee into deep space. Yet there is an element of hope in the final scene. In TESB Luke gets his hand back and they gaze at the galaxy. In TLJ the child slaves are quietly spreading the word of the Rebellion.

I can't see how this is meaningless or nihilistic. It's necessary for the heroes to suffer losses and defeats or there is no point in their heroics.


I guess I didn't see the bunch of slave kids at the end, who are still slaves; very hopeful. I actually found it dpressing because it reminded me that the Rebels had the chance to help them, but instead rescued the horses.

Compared to the end of TESB where they are actively launching a rescue mission and have found the remanants of the rebel fleet. That is an active hope, as opposed to the slave kids passive hope.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 15:12:27


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me there are obvious parallels between TLJ and TESB in the same way there are obvious parallels between ANH and TFA.

To look at the top line, the previous films finish on a high with the Rebellion have administered a serious defeat to the Empire. The next films start with the Rebellion unexpectedly under attack, and having to flee from the Imperial fleet, which they accomplish with some heroics and losses. There's even a mirror parallel element of the big ground battles occuring on deserted planets -- ice at the beginning of TESB and salt desert at the end of TLJ.

At the end of both films the Rebellion has suffered severe losses -- heroes dead, injured or captured -- and they have been kicked off their sanctuary planet and have to flee into deep space. Yet there is an element of hope in the final scene. In TESB Luke gets his hand back and they gaze at the galaxy. In TLJ the child slaves are quietly spreading the word of the Rebellion.

I can't see how this is meaningless or nihilistic. It's necessary for the heroes to suffer losses and defeats or there is no point in their heroics.


There is also the whole issue that the First Order took over the entire known galaxy in a day - maybe two if you stretch stuff a bit. And apart from a single crappy ship full of misfits and total idiots - no one cared.

Compared with the whole Leia speech of "the more you tighten your grip...." and the fact that there are plenty of rebels - by the end of TLJ there are what 12 and one ship. and still no one else cares. Oh and three kids - somewhere.

They even do the whole "We call for help" and no one answers - not that no one shows up - out of an entire galaxy not a single person even replies.

Maybe that's because like in Hitchhikers they had got rid of the useless parts of their population http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrincham


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 15:22:43


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


As bad as some of the EU was, and as bad as the Phantom Menace was, and to be fair, it's not that bad IMO

At least Lucas and Co back then cared about the product they were producing.

Poor execution, but their heart was in the right place.

TLJ in contrast is just one big middle finger to anybody who watches it.

Now and again, I do charity work that involves driving mentally disabled people to days out: bowling, pizza, cinema etc etc

Even when I know the film is going to be bad, it's better to watch the film than stay in the van.

I wished I had stayed in the van that day. Naturally, I couldn't say anything to them at the time, because they were over the moon.

But had I been there in other circumstances, I probably would have hurled something at the screen.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 15:23:28


Post by: Easy E


 LunarSol wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
I think the biggest "problem" for me was I wanted simple morality play narratives of good vs. evil and I got Nihilism instead.

In this movie, essentially "Nothing Mattered". It didn;t matter what you did, it just didn't matter.

Spoiler:

Blew up the Dreadnought.... but the enemy fleet is still on your tail!
Search for your parents..... They aren't important.
Killed Leia and Luke.... No you didn't Leia lived and Luke faded away on his own.
Destroyed the resistance.... except they escaped.
Defeated the Empire.... No, they came back
Force was re-balanced.... except it wasn't.
Destroyed the sacred texts.... No, wrong again!
Killed Snoke.... but no one actually cares.
Rescued the animals.... except you really didn't.
Found the master hacker..... except he ended up being unhelpful

Essentially every single element of the movie followed this exact same pattern of something happened! But it doesn't matter because of X.


This movie only succeeded on one level. It was Theatre of the Absurd. If that was the intention, then congrats. You win and I bow to your mastery of creating Star Seinfeld.


This bothered me more the first time I saw the movie than the second. The movie is clearly and very intentionally subverting expectations, but to a large degree that only has that effect when you're not expecting it. On rewatch, the only reason these things feel out of place is because I've come to expect Star Wars to conform to a pretty rigid formula. Seeing the potential of the series to break out of its rut and go a new direction is part of what's been bumping it up my rankings on repeated viewings.


Yes, to be fair I have only seen it once and have no real desire to see it or part 3 of the trilogy. I understand where it broke the rigid formula of Star Wars, and I agree this needed to be done. However, I do not like the method it used to pursue this goal for a simple reason. Nothing that happens in the future movies will matter.... because nothing that has happened in this movie or ANY Star Wars movie has mattered to the universe they are set in. If the stakes are irrelevant, I have no reason to watch anymore. If the darkness is defeated, another will simply rise to replace it. If the good is destroyed, more good will be brought forth. Characters will die pointlessly because they are ideaistically pursuing an idea (Either Imperial or Rebel) that is actually utterly pointless because no matter what ideal wins or loses, it will just coome back in the next generation. It is an endless cycle with no point and no catharsis. There is no Kantian progression or progress, only repetition of the same patterns for eternity. Boring and dull.

The Benicio Del Torro character pretty much summed up the nihilistic outlook of the movie perfectly in his dialogue and the nature of the Force as explained only reinforced it. Re-watch those bits and see if you come to a different conclusion. Perhaps Nihilism isn't the right word choice, but the movie basicaly is a big "F-U" as nothing you have spent time watching or thinking about means a damn to anything. This movie actively has contempt for the viewer..... :(


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 15:30:10


Post by: Mr Morden


 Easy E wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
I think the biggest "problem" for me was I wanted simple morality play narratives of good vs. evil and I got Nihilism instead.

In this movie, essentially "Nothing Mattered". It didn;t matter what you did, it just didn't matter.

Spoiler:

Blew up the Dreadnought.... but the enemy fleet is still on your tail!
Search for your parents..... They aren't important.
Killed Leia and Luke.... No you didn't Leia lived and Luke faded away on his own.
Destroyed the resistance.... except they escaped.
Defeated the Empire.... No, they came back
Force was re-balanced.... except it wasn't.
Destroyed the sacred texts.... No, wrong again!
Killed Snoke.... but no one actually cares.
Rescued the animals.... except you really didn't.
Found the master hacker..... except he ended up being unhelpful

Essentially every single element of the movie followed this exact same pattern of something happened! But it doesn't matter because of X.


This movie only succeeded on one level. It was Theatre of the Absurd. If that was the intention, then congrats. You win and I bow to your mastery of creating Star Seinfeld.


This bothered me more the first time I saw the movie than the second. The movie is clearly and very intentionally subverting expectations, but to a large degree that only has that effect when you're not expecting it. On rewatch, the only reason these things feel out of place is because I've come to expect Star Wars to conform to a pretty rigid formula. Seeing the potential of the series to break out of its rut and go a new direction is part of what's been bumping it up my rankings on repeated viewings.


Yes, to be fair I have only seen it once and have no real desire to see it or part 3 of the trilogy. I understand where it broke the rigid formula of Star Wars, and I agree this needed to be done. However, I do not like the method it used to pursue this goal for a simple reason. Nothing that happens in the future movies will matter.... because nothing that has happened in this movie or ANY Star Wars movie has mattered to the universe they are set in. If the stakes are irrelevant, I have no reason to watch anymore. If the darkness is defeated, another will simply rise to replace it. If the good is destroyed, more good will be brought forth. Characters will die pointlessly because they are ideaistically pursuing an idea (Either Imperial or Rebel) that is actually utterly pointless because no matter what ideal wins or loses, it will just coome back in the next generation. It is an endless cycle with no point and no catharsis. There is no Kantian progression or progress, only repetition of the same patterns for eternity. Boring and dull.

The Benicio Del Torro character pretty much summed up the nihilistic outlook of the movie perfectly in his dialogue and the nature of the Force as explained only reinforced it. Re-watch those bits and see if you come to a different conclusion. Perhaps Nihilism isn't the right word choice, but the movie basicaly is a big "F-U" as nothing you have spent time watching or thinking about means a damn to anything. This movie actively has contempt for the viewer..... :(


Maybe it was the Directors view - it really doesn't matter what crap I produce - it will still sell as its Star Wars.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 16:24:55


Post by: Manchu


 Peregrine wrote:
Of course, and none of us have all of the numbers to do more than speculate.
Addressed here:
 Manchu wrote:
Now the obvious counterpoint is that Disney stands to make who knows what kind of money "in the long run" but there's really no substance there apart from a best case scenario assumption ... and the best case scenario played out for TFA but not for R1 or TLJ.

 Easy E wrote:
I actually found it dpressing because it reminded me that the Rebels had the chance to help them, but instead rescued the horses.
Literally made me LOL. It's even worse. The alien horses were not rescued; merely used as a distraction then left to be recaptured. The point of that scene almost seems to be that Rose is a shallow moron. Imagine the same character played by a man, maybe Randy Quaid or John C. Reilly.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 16:48:03


Post by: LunarSol


 Easy E wrote:

Yes, to be fair I have only seen it once and have no real desire to see it or part 3 of the trilogy. I understand where it broke the rigid formula of Star Wars, and I agree this needed to be done. However, I do not like the method it used to pursue this goal for a simple reason. Nothing that happens in the future movies will matter.... because nothing that has happened in this movie or ANY Star Wars movie has mattered to the universe they are set in. If the stakes are irrelevant, I have no reason to watch anymore. If the darkness is defeated, another will simply rise to replace it. If the good is destroyed, more good will be brought forth. Characters will die pointlessly because they are ideaistically pursuing an idea (Either Imperial or Rebel) that is actually utterly pointless because no matter what ideal wins or loses, it will just coome back in the next generation. It is an endless cycle with no point and no catharsis. There is no Kantian progression or progress, only repetition of the same patterns for eternity. Boring and dull.

The Benicio Del Torro character pretty much summed up the nihilistic outlook of the movie perfectly in his dialogue and the nature of the Force as explained only reinforced it. Re-watch those bits and see if you come to a different conclusion. Perhaps Nihilism isn't the right word choice, but the movie basicaly is a big "F-U" as nothing you have spent time watching or thinking about means a damn to anything. This movie actively has contempt for the viewer..... :(


This is essentially where Star Wars has been stuck since..... '99? Probably sooner, but we had had a good break prior to the EU; but I hit full checked out nihilism when the Vong were introduced.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 17:41:47


Post by: Easy E


 LunarSol wrote:
 Easy E wrote:

Yes, to be fair I have only seen it once and have no real desire to see it or part 3 of the trilogy. I understand where it broke the rigid formula of Star Wars, and I agree this needed to be done. However, I do not like the method it used to pursue this goal for a simple reason. Nothing that happens in the future movies will matter.... because nothing that has happened in this movie or ANY Star Wars movie has mattered to the universe they are set in. If the stakes are irrelevant, I have no reason to watch anymore. If the darkness is defeated, another will simply rise to replace it. If the good is destroyed, more good will be brought forth. Characters will die pointlessly because they are ideaistically pursuing an idea (Either Imperial or Rebel) that is actually utterly pointless because no matter what ideal wins or loses, it will just coome back in the next generation. It is an endless cycle with no point and no catharsis. There is no Kantian progression or progress, only repetition of the same patterns for eternity. Boring and dull.

The Benicio Del Torro character pretty much summed up the nihilistic outlook of the movie perfectly in his dialogue and the nature of the Force as explained only reinforced it. Re-watch those bits and see if you come to a different conclusion. Perhaps Nihilism isn't the right word choice, but the movie basicaly is a big "F-U" as nothing you have spent time watching or thinking about means a damn to anything. This movie actively has contempt for the viewer..... :(


This is essentially where Star Wars has been stuck since..... '99? Probably sooner, but we had had a good break prior to the EU; but I hit full checked out nihilism when the Vong were introduced.


Yes, in the EU. A new mainstream trilogy is not the EU.

I only ever read the Dark Force Rising trilogy.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 18:28:47


Post by: LunarSol


Right, I'm just saying that as long as the universe is focused on the Jedi/Sith conflict there's always going to be an emphasis of this. Even KotOR basically hard reset the first game for the sequel, had all the good guys dead again and the Sith conquering the galaxy.

I think part of the appeal for me with the way TLJ works is that for all the times I've seen this story play out, this is probably the first time where I've seen the Light and Dark treated as contemporaries to the point of almost being dual protagonists. It's probably the first time since "something something Dark Siiiiide" where I've actually saw potential in exploring it.

If Star Wars is perpetually trapped repeating this conflict, I'm just finding this particular iteration the most compelling since the original.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 18:52:21


Post by: Manchu


 LunarSol wrote:
this is probably the first time where I've seen the Light and Dark treated as contemporaries to the point of almost being dual protagonists.
That's a very strong point but it's actually an innovation of TFA rather than TLJ, plus it's something TLJ decisively squandered by the end of the film.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 19:48:50


Post by: Easy E


 LunarSol wrote:

If Star Wars is perpetually trapped repeating this conflict, I'm just finding this particular iteration the most compelling since the original.


I think we are in agreement. The cycle needs to be broken, as I am not super familiar with how the Force is handled out side of "Movie" Star Wars. There it was not a perpetual cycle of Good stamping out Evil, and then Vice-versa since the movies covered it for a specific time period and related to a specific Father/Son arc.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 19:50:02


Post by: LunarSol


 Manchu wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
this is probably the first time where I've seen the Light and Dark treated as contemporaries to the point of almost being dual protagonists.
That's a very strong point but it's actually an innovation of TFA rather than TLJ, plus it's something TLJ decisively squandered by the end of the film.


TFA definitely created the potential. It takes its time bringing that to bear (I didn't really appreciate what they were doing until the snowfight) but I think TLJ made it a reality. I don't consider it at all squandered and actually really like where they left it off, but it depends on where they take it going forward. If they just throw the two of them at each other in the end in a Rey vs Emperor Ren to free the galaxy, then, yes, at that point I will consider the potential squandered. The important thing to me though is that the movie ends with to a degree both characters rejecting former masters and being more or less free to build their side from scratch. It's almost in the exciting place the Jedi were at, post RotJ, but for both sides this time.

I'm really hoping they put a time skip in before the next film, because I really feel like TLJ gave them the canvas to write a conflict as interesting as the original. Unfortunately, the job of doing so is left to the guy who failed to establish the new setting in the first place. I personally find a lot of the backlash heartbreaking, because despite being please with TFA I'm sure the end result of the fan reaction to TLJ will cause them to squander the opportunity to craft a new and compelling status quo and instead go back to the more fan service laden style of the previous film.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 19:54:30


Post by: Manchu


TLJ already gave up on creating a new and compelling status quo. Kylo Ren gives a great monologue about doing something different. Then inexplicably does exactly the thing baddies do in SW movies. Same for Rey. Did Rian Johnson write this scene to show SW characters being unaware of how contrived their moral universe is?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 21:13:02


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
I personally find a lot of the backlash heartbreaking, because despite being please with TFA I'm sure the end result of the fan reaction to TLJ will cause them to squander the opportunity to craft a new and compelling status quo and instead go back to the more fan service laden style of the previous film.


Maybe. The path forward is...interesting. My big question is whether Disney will really call it quits with the 'main' SW films after episode 9.

I like both TFA and TLJ for very different reasons. But I certainly admit it's been a weird ride as the first and second parts of a trilogy, and that's what you can get with a director-driven approach, especially when they aren't playing nice. JJ handled Johnson a big turd sandwich in the form of very limited and restrictive story threads, complete with a cliffhanger needing resolution. Um...thanks? So I understand why Johnson said 'feth it' and took a wrecking ball to the thing. It was either that or continue telling JJ's very obvious story.

But where does that leave them with ep 9? It's wide-open...and maybe too open to wrap it up as a trilogy. Um...thanks? I wouldn't be shocked to see 10 coming right on its heels, OR an ending with less closure than expected, so that they can extend the story into spinoff films and into other mediums.

They can't be ready to discard the Rey character after episode 9. Makes no business sense, and it might not make a lot of story sense either.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 21:53:34


Post by: Mr Morden


 Manchu wrote:
TLJ already gave up on creating a new and compelling status quo. Kylo Ren gives a great monologue about doing something different. Then inexplicably does exactly the thing baddies do in SW movies. Same for Rey. Did Rian Johnson write this scene to show SW characters being unaware of how contrived their moral universe is?


I think thats trying to give the director far more credit than he deserves. Someone who actually wanted a challenge might have had Ren go on a different path but no he goes for "hey look i am evil"



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 22:48:12


Post by: Manchu


 gorgon wrote:
JJ handled Johnson a big turd sandwich in the form of very limited and restrictive story threads, complete with a cliffhanger needing resolution.
This is so bizarre to me. We're talking episodes in a trilogy. So whoever the next director in line is shouldn't expect anything but to continue the story from the previous point. TFA's cliffhanger had me ready for more Star Wars. TLJ's whimper of an ending, which played like a Target toy commercial, made me feel nauseous about all things Star Wars. If TLJ is anything to go by then nothing that happens in TLJ even matters going forward, in which case there can be no argument that TLJ does a better job setting up Episode IX than TFA did for TLJ, even if you set aside that TLJ itself is nothing but turd sandwich.

After all these months, I think the only explanation is Rian Johnson hates Star Wars. I don't mean that in the normal, petty way, like as another way of saying TLJ is bad. I mean, he seems to hate that Star Wars is this fairly shallow, narrow thing. But his effort to "do something different" was not at all successful except in the most literal sense that it doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie, to the point where, because I know he has seen Star Wars before and as a writer is smart enough to understand what it is, I have to conclude that he hates it.

It would not surprise me at all if in an interview when he's 80 years old he says, look I just wanted to show people that there is not much going on with Star Wars.
 Mr Morden wrote:
I think thats trying to give the director far more credit than he deserves. Someone who actually wanted a challenge might have had Ren go on a different path but no he goes for "hey look i am evil"
I don't follow your point here, as I'm saying that Rian Johnson raised and then squandered the notion that Star Wars could do something other than light versus darkness. I mean, I think he's smart enough to know that's what he did and therefore it stands to reason that he intended it - in which case, it also stands to reason that he was making a point. Unless you think Kathleen Kennedy forced him at the last minute to rewrite a meaningful Rey/Ren teamup out of the movie in favor of "just more Star Wars."


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/17 22:59:14


Post by: Mr Morden


I honestly don't thnk there was that much thought that went into the film.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 02:12:37


Post by: Vulcan


 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me there are obvious parallels between TLJ and TESB in the same way there are obvious parallels between ANH and TFA.

To look at the top line, the previous films finish on a high with the Rebellion have administered a serious defeat to the Empire. The next films start with the Rebellion unexpectedly under attack, and having to flee from the Imperial fleet, which they accomplish with some heroics and losses. There's even a mirror parallel element of the big ground battles occuring on deserted planets -- ice at the beginning of TESB and salt desert at the end of TLJ.

At the end of both films the Rebellion has suffered severe losses -- heroes dead, injured or captured -- and they have been kicked off their sanctuary planet and have to flee into deep space. Yet there is an element of hope in the final scene. In TESB Luke gets his hand back and they gaze at the galaxy. In TLJ the child slaves are quietly spreading the word of the Rebellion.

I can't see how this is meaningless or nihilistic. It's necessary for the heroes to suffer losses and defeats or there is no point in their heroics.


At the end of ESB you finally see the Rebel Fleet, complete with capital ships. Helps you see that despite the losses suffered, the Rebellion is not a spent force yet.

During the course of TLJ, you go from having a Resistance Fleet complete with capital ships and thousands of crew members, fighter compliment, and ground troops down to cramming a couple dozen survivors onto the Millennium Falcon. The Resistance very much is a spent force a the end of the movie, and there's no real hope for them to accomplish anything on their own anymore.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 03:02:46


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


I think that one of my key disappointments with the new trilogy is that I was hoping that it would take an MCU approach to the old EU (Take the best bits, but paint in broad strokes). So, say, the Thrawn Trilogy would get re-jigged to account for being set 30 years later in the timeline. Leia ends up as the leader of the New Republic, while her kids ends up shouldering a lot of her/Luke's arc,and "Mara Jade" is changed to be a first order scout/assassin. The First Order is powerful because it found Palpatines stash, etc.

Instead, we get one movie (TFA) that is a remake in all but name, one that is a pretty good backstory film (Rogue One), and one that seems to hate Star Wars, while still containing the major story beats of Empire (TLJ).

Spoiler:

Inspired by my main post, I think that Ep. 9 could really get millage out of the "secret stash" idea. Simply have intel that the FO is using a Starforge/Cloning center complex, and you've got plot, backstory, and reason the Resistance is still relevant all rolled into one. Snokes a defective Palpatine Clone, and the FO is a bunch of clones equipped by an automated factory. The resistance can take out the entire complex with a crack team that fits on the Falcon. We learn all of this because Kylo gets shown it at the start of the movie.

Sadly, I suspect that this will be a better plot than we get.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 03:13:14


Post by: Lance845


I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 03:17:10


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.


It's not a great solution, I admit. However, my main thing is that it ties three loose ends up in one plot (Snoke ID, FO power, how the Resistance is supposed to succeed).



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 03:20:18


Post by: Lance845


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.


It's not a great solution, I admit. However, my main thing is that it ties three loose ends up in one plot (Snoke ID, FO power, how the Resistance is supposed to succeed).



Go back and watch episodes 4 5 and 6 again.

You have no idea who palpatine is, you have no idea how the empire came to power, and you have no idea how the rebel alliance is supposed to beat this endless massive war machine that can, by RotJ, clearly produce moon sized planet destroying space stations in fairly quick succession.

All of these questions are given a massive pass. Have always been given a massive pass. Why are they important now?

Did episodes 1 2 and 3 really make any of it better? Watching a bunch of politics and senate meetings and walking down endless cgi corridors that go to nowhere. Was Vaders character better BEFORE we got Anakins REAL crap story or after? Was it cooler to wonder what the clone wars might have been or did the clones wars getting explained as a massive army of Fett clones fighting robots over trade disputes really make the setting better?

You're looking for answers to questions that ultimately don't have answers that matter, and answering them in movie form tends to make the whole thing worse in effect.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 03:51:01


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


The problem is that we very much need answers... How did we get here (TFA) from there (ROTJ)? Those questions are crucial.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 03:58:48


Post by: Lance845


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The problem is that we very much need answers... How did we get here (TFA) from there (ROTJ)? Those questions are crucial.


Disagree. It's not crucial.

SW was written, from the very beginning, to be like a flash gordon serial that played in theaters when George Lucas was a kid.

That means you walk in to a episode in a series with little or no context of whats going on with big action and adventure. It's why we started with Episode 4 (not originally called episode 4, or a new hope but just "Star Wars") which has an opening crawl to give you the only bits of information you need to know whats happening RIGHT NOW. It doesn't matter how they got there. All that matters is that you walk in during the thick of it and see the pulpy action in the space fantasy.

It's also why there is a time jump from the end of every movie to the beginning of the next. We don't need to know how we got from the rebels fleeing cloud city to the rescue op on tatooine. Or how we went from a medal award ceremony to the rebels fleeing from a battle they cannot win. How did Vader get saved from his Tie flying off into space out of control? "THESE QUESTIONS ARE CRUCIAL!"

Episode 7 is no different from episode 4. You are walking in to a random chapter in a sci fi adventure serial. Heres whats happening. Sit back and enjoy.

You thinking it's critical to know these things goes against the very nature of what SW is supposed to be.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 04:25:19


Post by: Peregrine


There are two problems with the "old serial" explanation:

1) You can't just walk in because TFA breaks genre conventions. It sets up the rebellion against the evil empire, but then suddenly reverses the whole thing and says "but wait, the republic is still around and the evil empire isn't really in control" shortly before blowing up the republic capital. So what is the evil empire then? They clearly don't control the galaxy like you thought at the beginning of the movie, so why are they so scary? Why hasn't the existing government of the galaxy dealt with such an obvious military threat? Etc. Without the background material you don't really understand what's going on.

2) Unlike ANH a major part of TFA was nostalgia for the OT. Half the characters are returning, with story elements that depend on knowing the OT. Do you really think that TFA would have been anywhere near as big without that existing history of the Star Wars universe? Of course not. So if you're going to write the next chapter in the story you have to give a plausible explanation for how you get from "the story is over, the good guys win, every plot element is resolved" to "actually, the bad guys won/didn't win/whatever and everything sucks for all the old characters".

You don't have the same problem with things like the gap between ESB and ROTJ because everything at the start of ROTJ follows from what you expect after ESB. At the end of ESB they say "we've got a plan, we're going to rescue Han" and then at the start of ROTJ you see them doing exactly that. You don't need to explicitly witness all of the planning meetings for the rescue attempt because there's nothing surprising about the situation.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 04:33:23


Post by: Kilkrazy


 Vulcan wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me there are obvious parallels between TLJ and TESB in the same way there are obvious parallels between ANH and TFA.

To look at the top line, the previous films finish on a high with the Rebellion have administered a serious defeat to the Empire. The next films start with the Rebellion unexpectedly under attack, and having to flee from the Imperial fleet, which they accomplish with some heroics and losses. There's even a mirror parallel element of the big ground battles occuring on deserted planets -- ice at the beginning of TESB and salt desert at the end of TLJ.

At the end of both films the Rebellion has suffered severe losses -- heroes dead, injured or captured -- and they have been kicked off their sanctuary planet and have to flee into deep space. Yet there is an element of hope in the final scene. In TESB Luke gets his hand back and they gaze at the galaxy. In TLJ the child slaves are quietly spreading the word of the Rebellion.

I can't see how this is meaningless or nihilistic. It's necessary for the heroes to suffer losses and defeats or there is no point in their heroics.


At the end of ESB you finally see the Rebel Fleet, complete with capital ships. Helps you see that despite the losses suffered, the Rebellion is not a spent force yet.

During the course of TLJ, you go from having a Resistance Fleet complete with capital ships and thousands of crew members, fighter compliment, and ground troops down to cramming a couple dozen survivors onto the Millennium Falcon. The Resistance very much is a spent force a the end of the movie, and there's no real hope for them to accomplish anything on their own anymore.


You've made a mechanistic interpretation of the situation. In every SW film the Rebellion is wildly out-gunned and out-numbered by the Empire.

The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.

These facts are why the Rebellion's triumph will be all the greater in the end.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 04:36:58


Post by: Lance845


1) bs. The open crawl to TFA doesnt say the first order are an evil empire in control.

Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts….


Compare to

Episode IV, A NEW HOPE It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy….


You didnt know who leia was in 4 and you dont need to know who luke is in 7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2) You rely on that nostalgia. There is an entire generation who just saw episode 7 as their first starwars movie. They are not relying on anything you are cor it to be successful.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 04:48:34


Post by: Peregrine


 Lance845 wrote:
1) bs. The open crawl to TFA doesnt say the first order are an evil empire in control.


The words don't. The themes sure do. TFA is a remake of ANH, and it draws on the same "evil empire" themes as ANH in establishing the First Order. For the entire first half of the movie all you see is Evil Empire vs. French Resistance, complete with the same old star destroyers and storm troopers and evil jedi in black cloaks and masks. You don't even see the Republic at all outside of that half a sentence mention until shortly before the First Order destroys them (or some of them, or whatever, it's not like anything in TFA is ever explained).

2) You rely on that nostalgia. There is an entire generation who just saw episode 7 as their first starwars movie. They are not relying on anything you are cor it to be successful.


I seriously doubt it. Aside from the near-universal cultural knowledge of Star Wars do you honestly think there were that many kids who were old enough to see a Star Wars movie and interested in doing so whose parents hadn't given them any of the other movies yet? There might be a few, but that's hardly "an entire generation".

And of course they're relying on nostalgia. Did you even watch TFA? The whole movie is one giant nostalgia piece, full of references to the OT and attempts to milk the nostalgia cash cow. FFS, one of the biggest criticisms of TFA was that it never rose above the level of milking the nostalgia cash cow to become its own movie.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 04:54:42


Post by: Manchu


 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.
Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 05:02:53


Post by: ingtaer


 Manchu wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.
Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.


Hope that no matter how desperate your life, the horse things are more important. A true lesson for all to mull over in the great morality play of SW.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 05:04:31


Post by: Manchu


LOL!

Kids are told by slavemasters everyday that those horses are worth more than them.

Then one day some heroes from the Resistance show up and confirm that.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 05:04:57


Post by: Peregrine


 ingtaer wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.
Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.


Hope that no matter how desperate your life, the horse things are more important. A true lesson for all to mull over in the great morality play of SW.


I mean, those lucky kids even got to see the heroes rescue the horse things. What more could you ask for in life?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 05:06:33


Post by: Manchu


> shows scared kid secret Rebel ring

"It's okay, we're here to help"

> rescues horses, leaves kids


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 05:08:01


Post by: Peregrine


Don't worry, the next chapter in the morality play will have the kids forced to round up and kill all of the horse things because they're causing too much property damage.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 05:21:29


Post by: Lance845


 Peregrine wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
1) bs. The open crawl to TFA doesnt say the first order are an evil empire in control.


The words don't. The themes sure do. TFA is a remake of ANH, and it draws on the same "evil empire" themes as ANH in establishing the First Order. For the entire first half of the movie all you see is Evil Empire vs. French Resistance, complete with the same old star destroyers and storm troopers and evil jedi in black cloaks and masks. You don't even see the Republic at all outside of that half a sentence mention until shortly before the First Order destroys them (or some of them, or whatever, it's not like anything in TFA is ever explained).


TFA is SUPER similar in terms of plot points to ANH. 100% agreed. But YOU see evil empire because you SAW evil empire in 4 5 and 6. The movie drops you exactly where the opening crawl leaves you. It uses lines like "You're General Solo of the rebellion!" "I was" to give these characters their established place without actually having to have seen the old ones to get it. You get it all right there. Han is famous. He helped topple the empire. Hes fallen out of that and is disgruntled. Move the pulpy sci fi adventure forward. Again, you don't need to explain it! Nobody explains why Tatooine is run by a Hutt instead of the Empire. They don't need to. Crime lord. Scum and villany. You just accept it. Why did you accept it then but not now?

2) You rely on that nostalgia. There is an entire generation who just saw episode 7 as their first starwars movie. They are not relying on anything you are cor it to be successful.


I seriously doubt it. Aside from the near-universal cultural knowledge of Star Wars do you honestly think there were that many kids who were old enough to see a Star Wars movie and interested in doing so whose parents hadn't given them any of the other movies yet? There might be a few, but that's hardly "an entire generation".

And of course they're relying on nostalgia. Did you even watch TFA? The whole movie is one giant nostalgia piece, full of references to the OT and attempts to milk the nostalgia cash cow. FFS, one of the biggest criticisms of TFA was that it never rose above the level of milking the nostalgia cash cow to become its own movie.


Thats a very good way for someone to see it with a negative view. I saw it as a palate cleanser after 1-3. They did what they did, playing it a bit too safe, just to let everyone know they remembered what SW was. Because the remasters butcher a lot of the great moments of the original cuts and the prequels completely missed the mark. Playing it safe for 7 was smart. Hey guys. It's time for more serials with action and adventure. Not politics. Not CGI dance numbers. Not CGI flips. Not completely unbelieveable romance rolling down a giant CGI green hill with flowers. Not endless waves of CGI New Zealanders vs robots. No more 1 cool looking throw away bad guy per film we will kill off before you get a chance to like them.

Ep 7 laid a strong foundation that SW desperately needed. After almost 30 years of Lucasfilm making SW worse they really needed it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 06:10:54


Post by: Crimson Devil


 Manchu wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.
Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.


Who saved Shmi Skywalker from slavery?

It wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Anakin Skywalker. The so-called good guys. It was a nerf herding moisture farmer.


If you think to hard about any of the Star Wars films they fall apart.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 06:16:21


Post by: Lance845


 Crimson Devil wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.
Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.


Who saved Shmi Skywalker from slavery?

It wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Anakin Skywalker. The so-called good guys. It was a nerf herding moisture farmer.


If you think to hard about any of the Star Wars films they fall apart.


Also, Qui Gon walks into Wattos shop. He trys to mind trick him into giving him the parts they need for free. Which is stealing. It doesn't work. He could have walked out into the street and mind tricked passer by into giving him their money until he had enough to buy the part. It's morally exactly the same thing as what he tried to do to watto. Instead he decided to place gambling bets on a child in a death race.

Great people.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 06:19:31


Post by: Riquende


You're defending the sequels by attacking the prequels?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 06:22:49


Post by: Lance845


 Riquende wrote:
You're defending the sequels by attacking the prequels?


No. I am attacking the prequels. Also the remasters of the OT for that matter. They are also much worse than the originals. Attacking them and defending 7 can be mutually exclusive.

But I AM asking why everyone was okay with all of this BEFORE 7 and 8 but now it's a problem for some reason. That bit confuses me.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 07:05:24


Post by: Riquende


 Lance845 wrote:

But I AM asking why everyone was okay with all of this BEFORE 7 and 8 but now it's a problem for some reason. That bit confuses me.


What is the 'all of this' exactly that people are okay with? There's very little I'm 'okay with' in the prequels, to the point where I've never independently owned them (legally or otherwise) other than the VHS of Phantom Menace I got for Christmas '99 which melted on my windowsill the next summer.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 07:09:07


Post by: Peregrine


 Lance845 wrote:
But I AM asking why everyone was okay with all of this BEFORE 7 and 8 but now it's a problem for some reason. That bit confuses me.


I'm not really sure why you think people were ok with the prequels. I mean, aren't the prequels kind of the stereotypical example of NERRRRD RAAAAAAAGE?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
But YOU see evil empire because you SAW evil empire in 4 5 and 6.


And in general culture and science fiction. Since ANH it's become a standard genre element. Everyone knows what storm troopers are, and if you see them you can pretty confidently say that you're looking at an Evil Empire.

Thats a very good way for someone to see it with a negative view. I saw it as a palate cleanser after 1-3. They did what they did, playing it a bit too safe, just to let everyone know they remembered what SW was. Because the remasters butcher a lot of the great moments of the original cuts and the prequels completely missed the mark. Playing it safe for 7 was smart. Hey guys. It's time for more serials with action and adventure. Not politics. Not CGI dance numbers. Not CGI flips. Not completely unbelieveable romance rolling down a giant CGI green hill with flowers. Not endless waves of CGI New Zealanders vs robots. No more 1 cool looking throw away bad guy per film we will kill off before you get a chance to like them.


Well yes, the prequels sucked, I don't think many people are going to argue with you there. And perhaps TFA was a safe bet from a financial point of view, milking the cash cow of nostalgia while playing it fairly safe with a movie that wouldn't badly offend anyone. But the fact that TFA had reasons for milking the nostalgia cash cow, and did so more successfully than the utter trash of the prequels, doesn't change that it was a two-hour exercise in milking the cash cow of nostalgia that depends heavily on the audience being familiar with and invested in the OT. And it doesn't change the fact that this nostalgia exploitation and playing it safe was one of the most common criticisms of the movie.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 08:15:35


Post by: Kilkrazy


 Manchu wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.
Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.


As the scene shows, the slaves hope and believe in a Jedi master who fights the Empire. Their little playing out of this scene with dolls is a tiny rebellion against their own masters. When grown up, perhaps they will be like Conan the Barbarian.

You may feel all is hopeless, but the characters in the film don't. They have, and express, hope.

If you want to rationalise the scene mechanically, the fact that the legend of Luke has reached a bunch of child slaves shows that the Rebellion has survived its disastrous situation at the end of TLJ and is able to spread rumours and propaganda all over the galaxy.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 08:21:15


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The scene with the young slaves shows there is real hope.
Hope for what exactly? The Rebellion already won the GCW and those kids are enslaved nonetheless.


As the scene shows, the slaves hope and believe in a Jedi master who fights the Empire. Their little playing out of this scene with dolls is a tiny rebellion against their own masters. When grown up, perhaps they will be like Conan the Barbarian.
Strapped ten years into the pain wheel?

The problem is that hope is hope.. If there's nothing to work with that hope cannot blossom. Sure they can hope all they want, but the alien masters of the planet continue to feed weapons to the First Order, and the slaves clean (and probably will be helping catch those fox horse things)


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 08:27:32


Post by: Macok


 Mr Morden wrote:
IMO Its not that it is a bad "Star Wars" film but that it is a BAD film in general, what makes it worse is critics (and others) repeatedly and somehow claiming it is visionary, intelligent or clever and then on the counter punch claiming that anyone who disagrees is a racist/Sexist pig and/or Rapid star Wars fan who can't stand change.
[...]
The Reviews: Fundamentally dishonest which either points to corruption or coercion or a mixture of both.

Isn't it a bit... Hypocritical? Maybe not this exact quote, but you have voiced your opinion on this multiple times. Why can't people enjoy TLJ without being shills? Why do you paint everyone with one brush while being angry that some people do this to you?

 Peregrine wrote:
Well yes, the prequels sucked, I don't think many people are going to argue with you there.

Actually, lately I have seen A LOT of people defending prequels and saying they were quite good. Even things like "Jar Jar was not that bad" can be heard. <shudder>

Peregrine wrote:And it doesn't change the fact that this nostalgia exploitation and playing it safe was one of the most common criticisms of the movie.

True. Unfortunately, one of the most criticized things in TFA was Kylo.


My general thoughts about new SW films is:
TFA - very enjoyable movie. For me it felt like SW. Had one of the best action scenes from all three trilogies. Especially lightsaber fight (not over-choreographed or over CGIed, visually beautiful, between people who I knew something about and cared for at least a bit and which had some emotional background behind it).
RO - OK but ultimately meh and forgettable. Probably won't watch this one again as it does not evoke any strong emotions, good or bad.
TLJ - OKish but felt too long. My biggest gripe is that it does not "match" the FTA. Right now it just does not feel like this is a trilogy. Ultimately a waste of a good opportunity. I'm disappointed but not angry.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 09:46:15


Post by: Mr Morden


Isn't it a bit... Hypocritical? Maybe not this exact quote, but you have voiced your opinion on this multiple times. Why can't people enjoy TLJ without being shills? Why do you paint everyone with one brush while being angry that some people do this to you?


I don't know what a "shill" is and I certainly never called anyone that specific name.

I said paid film critics are corrupt or coerced - and there is definitely evidence to the latter if not the former in this very thread.

Beyond paid critics, and I see a general audience member as very different to someone paid to watch films and comment, it was also notable that whilst many people attacked the film itself not those who enjoyed it - some defenders of the film - paid or otherwise - would attack the person making the comments not their issues with the film. I also pointed this out (as did others).

I honestly don't understand anyone enjoying that film but recently met some people who do - but that's fine - I can discuss/debate/argue with them about that. I guess its like Deadpool - I HATE that character in the comics so never bothered with the films or make any comments about them in their threads as I have nothing relevant or positive to say.


Who saved Shmi Skywalker from slavery?

It wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Anakin Skywalker. The so-called good guys. It was a nerf herding moisture farmer.


Yep the Jedi are fine with slavery, stealing and the like - unless it directly effects them.

If you want to rationalise the scene mechanically, the fact that the legend of Luke has reached a bunch of child slaves shows that the Rebellion has survived its disastrous situation at the end of TLJ and is able to spread rumours and propaganda all over the galaxy.


Of course those children were also slaves under the new Republic and no one seemed to care - why would whatever structure the new rebels set up be any different? It does not seem to have any message, cause or anything other than maybe fight the First Order.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 14:23:42


Post by: Easy E


*** You have explained the hope at the end KillKrazy, thank you.**** Derp from Me removed.




Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 14:29:08


Post by: Kilkrazy


What do you mean by "more real"?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 14:35:42


Post by: Mr Morden


I guess that maybe when they grow up they will change the galaxy because it revolves around a few force users?

There is also nothing to say that they will be good guys - growing up a abused slave and then suddenly getting magic powers does not necessarily mean you will turn out to be a force for good - a force for change - maybe, but there may be more vengeance taking than liberating.

In the meantime life will go on for everyone else and probably not much changed under the First Order given the lack of interest in the new rebels.

During the course of TLJ, you go from having a Resistance Fleet complete with capital ships and thousands of crew members, fighter compliment, and ground troops down to cramming a couple dozen survivors onto the Millennium Falcon. The Resistance very much is a spent force a the end of the movie, and there's no real hope for them to accomplish anything on their own anymore.


Yep its what 2 -3 days max to dismantle the ruling structure of an entire galactic civilisation and replace it with a new one - with apparently very little violence.

If they had had montage of the First Order crushing the people across the galaxy it might have had a bit more meaning and resonance but that sort of logic was probably far beyond the "writer". Was the point to somehow say that the republic was pretty much the same as the Space Nazi's -is that why we had the oh sooo edgy arms dealers sell to both sides and make money at it?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 14:48:23


Post by: Easy E


Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 14:55:03


Post by: Kilkrazy


As you can see from the ending slave doll battle play scene, the word of the Rebellion has reached far across the galaxy.

Clearly it will turn out that people are responding to their calls for help. That naturally is a topic for the third film.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 14:58:37


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Except in the second movie it was explicitly stated that people were straight up ignoring their calls for help to begin with which is why they were traveling alone as it was.

The word of the rebellion has reached some slaves, but the governments don't care. They refused to provide shelter, they refuse to provide troops.

In the grand scheme of things this is not Mon Mothma pleading to the governments and getting "unofficial" help behind the back of the Empire. This is they pleaded and got absolutely nothing, refused and turned away at all calls from former allies and headed towards a destination so that they could desperately regroup while they were going to plan.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:08:17


Post by: Crimson Devil


 Easy E wrote:
Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.


Unfortunately, there are a lot of people fine with living under Fascist regimes. Make the trains run on time and you can get away with a lot.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:09:54


Post by: Kilkrazy


That statement was made before the ending scene which clearly takes place at a later date because it cannot have taken place at the same or previous time.

Therefore the situation is possible to be different.

It's perfectly obvious that in the third film the Rebellion will have found some way to rise again.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:13:27


Post by: ZebioLizard2


So when the Resistance was at it's strongest, governments won't provide help.

But when they are down to about fifteen people in a rust bucket, they'll be willing and able to help to the best of their ability?

The First Order is still very powerful, they haven't lost much, if anything at all except for Snoke and a few ships while the resistance has lost a number of notable people... Okay I cannot get rid of my willing suspension of disbelief to believe that the governments are now very willing to provide as much power to the Resistance now at this date.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:23:54


Post by: Mr Morden


 Crimson Devil wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.


Unfortunately, there are a lot of people fine with living under Fascist regimes. Make the trains run on time and you can get away with a lot.


yes but not always the very next day.....also facist regimes usually had opponents who would back resistance to them - this time its nope - almost every rebellion in history has required the support of foreign powers with their interests in play.

That statement was made before the ending scene which clearly takes place at a later date because it cannot have taken place at the same or previous time. Therefore the situation is possible to be different.
It's perfectly obvious that in the third film the Rebellion will have found some way to rise again.


Why couldn't it have taken place at the same time - its not like the film makers had any grasp of such things.

Why do the slave children think becuase a couple of people released some horses for a couple of hours (and then only as a distraction) think that they wil be freed under the same people who let them be slaves before?

The First Order might decree that no humans can be slaves and hey they are free.

Why does the aused slave child who gets magic powers join the "good guys" who ever they are by the time they grow up - unless they are going for another child prodigy


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:27:29


Post by: Kilkrazy


I am confident that you will see the answers to all your questions in part 3.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:31:04


Post by: ZebioLizard2


I am sure I might see the answers to my questions in part 3.

The main issue is "Will it actually be satisfying or will the answer handwave everything and annoy people"


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:42:49


Post by: Kilkrazy


There are some people who were perfectly happy with part 2, and some other people who thought it was terrible.

It's not clear why, as the exact same scenes, dialogue and so on were watched by both sets of people.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 15:48:01


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are some people who were perfectly happy with part 2, and some other people who thought it was terrible.

It's not clear why, as the exact same scenes, dialogue and so on were watched by both sets of people.


It can happen with any film to some extent but it seems to be a very marmite film with the audience- unless you are paid critc who almost universaly believe (for wahtever reason) its one of the best films ever.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 16:21:03


Post by: Crimson Devil


Maybe the Critics didn't have a Snoke theory that needed validation for them to enjoy it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 16:32:46


Post by: Mr Morden


 Crimson Devil wrote:
Maybe the Critics didn't have a Snoke theory that needed validation for them to enjoy it.


nor did i - still didn't enjoy it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 16:40:23


Post by: Manchu


 Kilkrazy wrote:
You may feel all is hopeless, but the characters in the film don't.
As to the children, this seems to be a case of dramatic irony: the characters feel something because they don't know everything the audience does. The kids are retelling the story of Luke Skywalker but we know Luke Skywalker is dead and the Resistance has not only been whittled down to a handful of survivors but also has been abandoned by its erstwhile allies in its moment of uttermost need. It's kind of like a scene where everyone is laughing and having a good time because they don't know their loved one is in another room having a fatal stroke.
 Kilkrazy wrote:
If you want to rationalise the scene mechanically, the fact that the legend of Luke has reached a bunch of child slaves shows that the Rebellion has survived its disastrous situation at the end of TLJ and is able to spread rumours and propaganda all over the galaxy.
I don't think that conclusion is supported by the film. What we actually see in the movie is that the kids already know about Rebellion/Resistance (and presumably Luke) when they meet Rose and Finn. The child who sees Rose's secret ring with the Rebellion symbol recognizes what it means in a positive way.

This scene also connects to TFA. Just like the kids in the stables, Rey had heard of the Resistance and Luke Skywalker even out on Jakku. This indicates the Resistance has had some success in spreading the word. Princess Leia again confirms this in TLJ by confidently asserting allies will respond to her call. But no one actually answers (despite instantaneous communication technology), much less comes to their aid, and the Resistance is all but wiped out.

Now this is how the movie itself works, this isn't my theory. This is how Rian Johnson decided to tell this story. So ending on a scene of children, who are blissfully ignorant of the terrible losses inflicted on the Resistance, looking up to the stars with hope is either intentionally ironic or absolutely hamfisted feelgoodism designed to let the audience leave the theater on a false highnote. I think it is pretty clearly the latter.
 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's perfectly obvious that in the third film the Rebellion will have found some way to rise again.
I think this is completely correct. It would be impossible to have a Star Wars movie otherwise, much less the climactic final installment of a trilogy.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 16:45:54


Post by: Easy E


I think you are right Manchu. Rian Johnson actually hates Star Wars and hates that people actually like this "shallow drek".


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 16:49:36


Post by: Manchu


 Crimson Devil wrote:
Maybe the Critics didn't have a Snoke theory that needed validation for them to enjoy it.
This is a red herring. The issue is not that people wanted TLJ to prove them, in particular, correct about XYZ prediction. The issue is that TFA sets up the character of Snoke as important to explaining much of what TFA very much intentionally does not explain. Rian Johnson is not a moron. He understood that this is the function of Snoke in TFA. Knowing that, he decided to play it up in his movie (his vague "darkness rises" speech) just for the sake of abruptly killing off the character.

SUPRISE - SUBVERTED EXPECTATIONS!





... except it doesn't work. Because all that stuff that TFA intentionally left unexplained? Yeah, people were interested in an explanation. It didn't have to be THEIR explanation. But we were looking for something.

"But I didn't care about that," I can already hear folks cleverly retorting. Yes, and that brings us back to the question of, does any of this matter or is it just another throwaway spectacle at the cinema?

If you think the cinematic equivalent of a Big Mac is acceptable, that's fine. But that is not an argument that TLJ is a good movie. That's putting it on the same shelf as Transformers. And the Prequels.

And I can agree with that.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:07:45


Post by: Crimson Devil


All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:14:54


Post by: Mr Morden


 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.


Yep it is and was fine as nothing more than that for the most part,. Then they made a film where its neither fun or clever and pretend its ohh so ceveer and meaningful when all it is a shody torn up version of the emperors new clothes.

No substance,


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:21:14


Post by: Manchu


 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs.
I completely disagree. They may not be intellectual masterpieces, but ANH and ESB are iconic adventure movies that have inspired millions. Those movies represent benchmarks in film making. Not that every SW film can be that way. To me, Disney can at least make fun movies with likable characters. TLJ isn't a fun movie at all, because everyone is confused, disappointed, and desperate throughout. And the fun characters introduced in TFA are undermined at every turn.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:31:14


Post by: Crimson Devil


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.


Yep it is and was fine as nothing more than that for the most part,. Then they made a film where its neither fun or clever and pretend its ohh so ceveer and meaningful when all it is a shody torn up version of the emperors new clothes.

No substance,


Lol. If you really agreed with me then you wouldn't spend this much time bad mouthing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs.
I completely disagree. They may not be intellectual masterpieces, but ANH and ESB are iconic adventure movies that have inspired millions. Those movies represent benchmarks in film making. Not that every SW film can be that way. To me, Disney can at least make fun movies with likable characters. TLJ isn't a fun movie at all, because everyone is confused, disappointed, and desperate throughout. And the fun characters introduced in TFA are undermined at every turn.


Iconic doesn't require depth or quality.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:35:53


Post by: Mr Morden


 Crimson Devil wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.


Yep it is and was fine as nothing more than that for the most part,. Then they made a film where its neither fun or clever and pretend its ohh so ceveer and meaningful when all it is a shody torn up version of the emperors new clothes.

No substance,


Lol. If you really agreed with me then you wouldn't spend this much time bad mouthing it.



I have time to spare today

All films are there to enjoy (or not) - some have a message, some don't - some pretend to do so. Like this one - aided and abetted by Critics.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:38:34


Post by: Manchu


 Crimson Devil wrote:
Iconic doesn't require depth or quality.
I don't think ANH or ESB are especially deep movies but they are certainly quality pictures.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:47:33


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


Snoke breaks Chekov's golden rule: If there's duelling pistols in the first act, then they should be fired in the third.

In other words, if a big deal is made of something, it needs resolution, otherwise, it's surplus to requirements and should not have been included in the first place.

Snoke is the duelling pistols. The lack of resolution is gak story telling any day of the week. It's either incompetence or the writer was complicit. Not good either way.

As Chekov is one of the all time greats, I'll trust his judgement on this.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:53:34


Post by: Scrabb


 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.


And here we have it folks!

Star Wars sucks anyway! This has come up in nearly every thread on this board (and two other websites I read) from those tired of people criticizing TLJ. If you like TLJ more than all the other Star Wars, because of what it says about the Star Wars universe, fine. That is a valid opinion.

But for the love of cinema why do you like TLJ so much as to go to the bat for it? I really don't get it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:58:30


Post by: Lance845


You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?

Again, a serial. We are coming in durring the middle of the conflict. The first order has harried themand chiped away at them. They are stuggling to remain standing calling for aid and people dont want to send aid to a loosing battle.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 17:59:23


Post by: Manchu


Sorry, how are ANH and TLJ the same set up?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 18:00:00


Post by: ZebioLizard2


To put it bluntly, the Emperor's past (Since this is something detractors love to bring up) was never a big thing in the movies because he wasn't part of the big picture at the time.

We just knew that Palpatine was there in the background, leading the Empire... But the big threat and major storytelling issue happened to be entirely around Darth Vader and the other servants of the Empire. Palpatine was never around in the first episode but then again he was never a focus. Heck, the narrative focus was building up with Vader being Luke's father. Palpatine was still in the background, doing his evil things but then there was never a focus on Palpatine while Snoke was there from day 1 being evil and plotting alongside Hux and Kylo, giving orders.

Palpatine eventually does show up, but the expectation is that Darth Vader is the real muscle, that this frail old man is going to easily be toppled.. Heck, Luke throws away his lightsaber after his rage moment with Vader and basically asks the Emperor to surrender not expecting the Emperor to actually be this twisted lightning psycho sith because of how well he's apparently hidden it.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?
Because that's how it starts, not how it ends? I don't know where you are going with that because they aren't comparable.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 18:07:30


Post by: Lance845


I didnt have the page refreshed properly aparently. It was in relation to another post about how nobody would come help the resistance in ep8. Which is the same question you could ask about the opening of ep4.

Palpatine IS in ep4. Hes a hologram talking to vader and giving him orders. Exactly like snoke to kylo. Again, why is it cool in anh but bad in 7?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 18:11:14


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Because he never spoke in ANH for one thing, he was first seen in hologram in The Empire Strikes Back




I didnt have the page refreshed properly aparently. It was in relation to another post about how nobody would come help the resistance in ep8. Which is the same question you could ask about the opening of ep4.
That was me! Also because they don't establish that as a plot point. Episode 8 establishes that nobody is willing to help the Resistance at all to make things seem bleaker.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 18:16:46


Post by: gorgon


 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Snoke breaks Chekov's golden rule: If there's duelling pistols in the first act, then they should be fired in the third.

In other words, if a big deal is made of something, it needs resolution, otherwise, it's surplus to requirements and should not have been included in the first place.

Snoke is the duelling pistols. The lack of resolution is gak story telling any day of the week. It's either incompetence or the writer was complicit. Not good either way.

As Chekov is one of the all time greats, I'll trust his judgement on this.


I think "Chekov's Gun" is a good rule of thumb for a beginning writer, but it's really not a law that narratives have to follow in order to be sensical or successful. It's very artificial and often clunky. In real life things and people constantly pass in and out of our lives without resolution. Writers with more experience and confidence can feel free to ignore or play with/subvert it.

Besides, Snoke isn't a good example of the concept.

@Manchu & Easy E: While I think you've tried to qualify it somewhat, the 'he hates X!' line is in the upper echelon of most shallow, fanboy things that one can use in a discussion. It ends up saying much more about you than any creator you're criticizing, and lends absolutely nothing to the conversation. You guys are better than that.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 18:24:42


Post by: Turnip Jedi


watched Force Awakens to prepare for another run at TLJ, why cos Rey still have a Core World Accent (ie RP English) after more than a decade on Jakku ? Apart from cos Daisy does, and whilst purty she is by far the weakest actor


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 18:27:54


Post by: Manchu


@Gorgon ... I mean, you can come back with a passive aggressive insult or you can address the actual point. The universally accepted point about TLJ is Rian Johnson never missed an opportunity to subvert the audience's expectations about how a Star Wars film should play out. Why do you suppose he chose to make the main project of his opportunity to write and direct a Star Wars film to undermine the classic Star Wars beats?

I hear people say about things, "I love and am a big fan of X ... but let me tell you about how everything about X needs to change in order for it to be good." There is a contradiction there. That is what Rian Johnson seems to be saying. In interviews, he says he loves Star Wars. But you watch his Star Wars film and it seems like a full on critique of Star Wars.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 19:03:29


Post by: Crimson Devil


Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

As Chekov is one of the all time greats, I'll trust his judgement on this.


He's was the Navigator on the Enterprise right?


Scrabb wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
All of the Star Wars movies are Big Macs. I first saw Star Wars when I was 6 years old in 1977. It had a profound impact on my life. But even I can admit the entire franchise is junk food for the brain.


And here we have it folks!

Star Wars sucks anyway! This has come up in nearly every thread on this board (and two other websites I read) from those tired of people criticizing TLJ. If you like TLJ more than all the other Star Wars, because of what it says about the Star Wars universe, fine. That is a valid opinion.

But for the love of cinema why do you like TLJ so much as to go to the bat for it? I really don't get it.


By Revenge of the Sith, the prequels had killed and buried my fandom in a shallow grave. I had no intention of seeing the Force Awakens in the theater but a friend bought me a ticket. It was okay. It did what it needed to do which was prove that Disney could make a Star Wars movie. I had more interest in Rogue One, but it was just okay. The Last Jedi was again a free ticket on opening night. To my great surprise I really enjoyed it and saw it again two more times in the theater. It was the first time since Return of the Jedi I felt jazzed about Star Wars. I can understand the criticisms about the movie and I agree with some of them. But the hyperbolic crap that gets thrown at it is ridiculous. Just like the racist comment up thread. I had a 6 hour road trip almost end in a murder because my passenger couldn't stop raging about TLJ and wouldn't change the subject.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 19:10:50


Post by: Manchu


 Crimson Devil wrote:
But the hyperbolic crap that gets thrown at it is ridiculous.
"It is a bad film for the following reasons ...", however, is not hyperbolic crap. And I can understand being stuck in a car with someone going on and on about it but this thread ain't an inescapable situation.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 19:39:44


Post by: timetowaste85


TLJ was depressing. It took the beloved characters and trashed them. The Matrix-style training for Rey, as mentioned, is spot on. We had a trilogy that was about a Skywalker. Then a prequel trilogy also about the Skywalker family. Then, UNLESS this new trilogy ACTUALLY sends up being about Ben’s redemption after all, we have a conclusion to the plan of 9 that...ISNT about the family we’ve invested in?! The show ‘Rebels’ shows us that stories can be told and have power outside of the original crew of characters. So does Rogue One. But to take the vision of 9 movies that have 6 all about the Skywalkers, then trash that for a bum orphan version of Neo? Idiot sidekicks? Brain-dead leaders like Holdo? This movie takes a steaming dump on everything Star Wars fans loved. The fact that people in this thread somehow enjoyed it is depressing. Then again, there were people who liked the newest Fantastic F4il movie. So I guess it proves that if you make it, some fools will gobble it up. I grew up with Star Wars. I LOVED Star Wars! I don’t even want to see episode 9. I’d rather watch Hayden Christiansen run around whining.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 19:47:25


Post by: KTG17


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Because he never spoke in ANH for one thing, he was first seen in hologram in The Empire Strikes Back




I didnt have the page refreshed properly aparently. It was in relation to another post about how nobody would come help the resistance in ep8. Which is the same question you could ask about the opening of ep4.
That was me! Also because they don't establish that as a plot point. Episode 8 establishes that nobody is willing to help the Resistance at all to make things seem bleaker.



Ha! yeah, And I think that is what is actually cool about the Emperor in the original trilogy. First you hear about him, then you see a little of him, and then you see him in all his glory. To be honest, I thought he was kinda cheesy. But, the lead up to him was awesome. It was... patient. They took their time and did a good job revealing him. By the time he shows up, you understand he is the most evil and feared guy in the Empire. Its almost like you share the fear and respect for him as the typical Imperial Officer might.

But the guy was a douche. And far worse in the prequels. But Snoke is also far worse. And so is his name. I am amazed I am the only one who think's Snoke's name is the worse. Supreme Leader Snoke. Wtf.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 20:52:08


Post by: Ouze


 KTG17 wrote:
And so is his name. I am amazed I am the only one who think's Snoke's name is the worse. Supreme Leader Snoke. Wtf.


Relevant:

Spoiler:


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 21:05:08


Post by: dogma


 KTG17 wrote:

But the guy was a douche. And far worse in the prequels. But Snoke is also far worse. And so is his name. I am amazed I am the only one who think's Snoke's name is the worse. Supreme Leader Snoke. Wtf.


In the Star Wars universe there is always someone with a worse name...unless your name is Savage Opress.

 gorgon wrote:

Besides, Snoke isn't a good example of the concept.


Sure he is. What relevance does Snoke have to the story? What role does Snoke fill that couldn't be filled by other characters?

Regardless, he was never built up the way that Palpatine was because the people bowing to him weren't, themselves, fearsome. Vader and Tarkin are way more intimidating than Ren and Hux. We hear about Kylo killing all his classmates, but that happens off screen. On screen Vader kills a blockade runner crewman, lifting him off his feet by the neck and subsequently throwing his body into a wall; all with one hand. Tarkin gets points because he told that man to stop force choking someone else, and he listened.

There is far too much "tell" in TLJ, and not near enough "show".


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 22:17:11


Post by: LunarSol


I suppose I didn't have any real stake in Snoke. I really like Abrams on the whole, but Lost never really appealed to precisely because his mystery boxes have always been a little empty feeling. Even the initial plane crash never felt like it had an answer in mind the way a really good twist often does.

I found Snoke in this one super appealing largely because he's character and not an enigma. One thing the prequels completely and totally failed to build on was just how broken and dominated Vader was in the presence of the Emperor. Having an extended sequence focused on the idea that Snoke is more or less constantly monitoring every thought


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 22:35:15


Post by: Easy E


 gorgon wrote:


@Manchu & Easy E: While I think you've tried to qualify it somewhat, the 'he hates X!' line is in the upper echelon of most shallow, fanboy things that one can use in a discussion. It ends up saying much more about you than any creator you're criticizing, and lends absolutely nothing to the conversation. You guys are better than that.


Obviously, I am not better than that.

It is clear that Rian Johnson understands what makes Star Wars work and why it was so popular. You have to be able to understand that in order to de-construct it. Then, knowing what makes it work to go about and use that knowledge to then Npurposely NOT do those things? That says something about what you think about the people who like said thing and the said thing itself. It says that it wasn't good enough as is and it needs to be re-made.

I know De-constructing stuff is all the rage. You see it books and comics, you see it in cuisine, you see it in TV and cinema, you see it in art, you see it in politics, you see it in pop culture/culture; you see De-construction everywhere and it is the "cool" thing to do now. Perhaps that is what led him down such a path? I don't know. I do know that De-construction is in the zeitgeist right now. That is part of why I feel that TLJ is a very 20Teens movie. It is a clear encapsulation of so much of our current American culture and zeitgeist.

I do not even disagree with the premise that Star Wars needed somethign to shake it up and break the formula; but TLJ was not it. There were good elements such as the Rey/Ren team-up, the idea that Rey's parents are no bodies, even an embittered Luke were all needed. However, there was so much other stuff that just cluttered it up and distracted from the key changes that needed to be made.

Clearly, I have a lot of gestalt ideas about TLJ, but I am just not eloquent or articulate enough to fully enunciate them in a clear manner.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:04:47


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.


Aside from the little detail that several of the EU stories are both more interesting and FAR better written than what we got in VIII...

I fully admit that some of the EU was trash, and much of it decidedly mediocre. But there were gems in the EU as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
As you can see from the ending slave doll battle play scene, the word of the Rebellion has reached far across the galaxy.

Clearly it will turn out that people are responding to their calls for help. That naturally is a topic for the third film.



And if there's going to be enough of them to matter against the military machine of the New Order that can take over thousands of planets without even a fight and STILL spare a couple dozen star destroyers to go after the Resistance, then the two dozen surviving members of the Resistance disappear into their forces like a drop of ink into the ocean.

At which point, who even cares that those two dozen people survived in the first place? The story pretty much has to be about the massive forces REPLACING them as the primary resistance to the New order. Although... given the lack of military competence demonstrated by those survivors, that might be a good thing.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:17:16


Post by: Lance845


 Vulcan wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.


Aside from the little detail that several of the EU stories are both more interesting and FAR better written than what we got in VIII...

I fully admit that some of the EU was trash, and much of it decidedly mediocre. But there were gems in the EU as well.


I fully enjoyed 7 and 8 and am really looking forward to 9. Though less because of 9 and more because I want to see where it's going when this story is done.

As for the EU, there may be some good stories in there. I liked IG-88s story in tales of the bounty hunters. I even liked Shadows of the Empire. But both of those stories have the same problem with the entire EU. It takes every single character and turns them into a reference to or some kind of destiny with the main 5 characters of the OT. Every single person in the galaxy only exists to push these same 5 people into the places they need to be in the movies, to be opposition to them afterwards so that we can keep cheering on the same couple people, or as extensions of them because they are their girl/boy friend or kids.

It doesn't matter how much you liked story X from the EU, the whole pile of it was garbage because none of it managed to legitimately break away and show us there there was a larger galaxy out there.

The BEST part of 7 and 8 so far is the steps they are taking towards that. Good. Kill off all the old characters. Kill off the dark/light side dynamic that has plagued SW lore since it's inception. Move on to something different just for the sake of variety.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:20:11


Post by: Vulcan


 Kilkrazy wrote:
I am confident that you will see the answers to all your questions in part 3.


I am confident I will not, as I no longer care enough to waste two hours of my life on it. And I am sure I'm far from the only one.

Rian Johnson has done what many considered to be impossible. He turned a significant number of Star Wars fans completely apathetic about the future of Star Wars.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:27:58


Post by: Riquende


 Lance845 wrote:

It doesn't matter how much you liked story X from the EU, the whole pile of it was garbage because none of it managed to legitimately break away and show us there there was a larger galaxy out there.

The BEST part of 7 and 8 so far is the steps they are taking towards that. Good. Kill off all the old characters. Kill off the dark/light side dynamic that has plagued SW lore since it's inception. Move on to something different just for the sake of variety.


That's... somehow the exact opposite of how I feel about the EU and the sequels. The EU made the galaxy huge. Loads of stuff was going on that had nothing to do with the Skywalker family. I assume you never read the Adventure Journals?

The sequels make the galaxy feel tiny in comparison.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:28:10


Post by: Lance845


Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:30:17


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:
You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?

Again, a serial. We are coming in durring the middle of the conflict. The first order has harried themand chiped away at them. They are stuggling to remain standing calling for aid and people dont want to send aid to a loosing battle.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?


Because each step of the way we see the Rebellion GAINING ground.

We see the Rebels start ANH with one ship against overwhelmning force. Yes, the ship is lost. We later see them go to a hidden base with several starfighters - which winds up being enough force to destroy the Death Star.

They start ESB with an army at another hidden base. They salvage much of it, and by the end of the movie we see their fleet for the first time.

They go into RotJ with just the main characters, but then rendezvous with the Rebels who have an even larger fleet than we thought, and even special forces troopers. And, of course, by the end of the film they win.

In TFA the Republic runs that galaxy, and the New Order WIPES THEM AWAY IN ONE SHOT. All that's left is a small band of resistance fighters who, granted, beat the Death Star III.

In TLJ the Resistance looses nearly everything they have left, and all their friends abandon them to die.

There's really no place to go from that, that will make any sense.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:31:40


Post by: Lance845


 Riquende wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:

It doesn't matter how much you liked story X from the EU, the whole pile of it was garbage because none of it managed to legitimately break away and show us there there was a larger galaxy out there.

The BEST part of 7 and 8 so far is the steps they are taking towards that. Good. Kill off all the old characters. Kill off the dark/light side dynamic that has plagued SW lore since it's inception. Move on to something different just for the sake of variety.


That's... somehow the exact opposite of how I feel about the EU and the sequels. The EU made the galaxy huge. Loads of stuff was going on that had nothing to do with the Skywalker family. I assume you never read the Adventure Journals?

The sequels make the galaxy feel tiny in comparison.


The entire main plot points of ep8 was Rey isn't from anyone or anywhere, snokes history doesn't matter, Kylo doesn't care about his old masters order, and anyone can be a hero. The last shot of the film is a force sensitive kid pulling a broom into his hand , holding it like a lightsaber and looking up into a field of stars. Episode 8 might as well end with big white letters saying "Anyone can be a hero now! The galaxy is full of stories we can tell that have nothing to do with anyone you have met! Get ready!"


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:35:35


Post by: dogma


 Lance845 wrote:

As for the EU, there may be some good stories in there.


But sometimes you get Boba Fett, a throwaway character, becoming the basis for an army.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:36:26


Post by: Vulcan


 dogma wrote:
On screen Vader kills a blockade runner crewman


Captain Antillies, no less. (No relation to Wedge Antillies. Hey, it's a big universe...)


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:37:04


Post by: Lance845


 Vulcan wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?

Again, a serial. We are coming in durring the middle of the conflict. The first order has harried themand chiped away at them. They are stuggling to remain standing calling for aid and people dont want to send aid to a loosing battle.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?


Because each step of the way we see the Rebellion GAINING ground.

We see the Rebels start ANH with one ship against overwhelmning force. Yes, the ship is lost. We later see them go to a hidden base with several starfighters - which winds up being enough force to destroy the Death Star.

They start ESB with an army at another hidden base. They salvage much of it, and by the end of the movie we see their fleet for the first time.

They go into RotJ with just the main characters, but then rendezvous with the Rebels who have an even larger fleet than we thought, and even special forces troopers. And, of course, by the end of the film they win.

In TFA the Republic runs that galaxy, and the New Order WIPES THEM AWAY IN ONE SHOT. All that's left is a small band of resistance fighters who, granted, beat the Death Star III.

In TLJ the Resistance looses nearly everything they have left, and all their friends abandon them to die.

There's really no place to go from that, that will make any sense.


"Episode VIII

"THE LAST JEDI

"The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.

"Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight.

"But the Resistance has been exposed. As the First Order speeds toward the rebel base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape....


Where is it going to go? There will be a time jump like there always is. And hopefully there is an end to any kind of central galactic government. Id much prefer a bunch of disparate system/world governments that can butt heads. More opportunity there.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:40:49


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


Without Star Wars fans, Lucas is a two-movie director best known for American Graffiti.

I expect the sales for Solo and (especially) IX will make the point better than anything I can say.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:44:40


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Vulcan wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.


Aside from the little detail that several of the EU stories are both more interesting and FAR better written than what we got in VIII...

I fully admit that some of the EU was trash, and much of it decidedly mediocre. But there were gems in the EU as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
As you can see from the ending slave doll battle play scene, the word of the Rebellion has reached far across the galaxy.

Clearly it will turn out that people are responding to their calls for help. That naturally is a topic for the third film.



And if there's going to be enough of them to matter against the military machine of the New Order that can take over thousands of planets without even a fight and STILL spare a couple dozen star destroyers to go after the Resistance, then the two dozen surviving members of the Resistance disappear into their forces like a drop of ink into the ocean.

At which point, who even cares that those two dozen people survived in the first place? The story pretty much has to be about the massive forces REPLACING them as the primary resistance to the New order. Although... given the lack of military competence demonstrated by those survivors, that might be a good thing.


I think you are underestimating Lucasfilm's complete ineptitude when it comes to scale. They will absolutely have the twelve rebels take on the entire New Order (five ships and three planets) and win by destroying a single military macguffin.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:47:01


Post by: Lance845


Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/18 23:52:05


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.


You are being completely ridiculous. Star Wars, the complete and finished story told in three films, existed that whole time. It was not an obscure series. It was an inescapable part of mainstream culture since 1977. I'm not sure how you could possibly believe that the films weren't to be found until 1997. Do you think TV didn't exist? VCR's didn't exist?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 00:05:14


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Seems more like people who don't like star wars for being star wars, but instead want it to be something different are the most toxic. To hate the fans for being fans is definitely one big "Fan-Hater" sign.

You've been proven wrong several times throughout this thread on various topics though that's for sure.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 01:21:47


Post by: Lance845


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.


You are being completely ridiculous. Star Wars, the complete and finished story told in three films, existed that whole time. It was not an obscure series. It was an inescapable part of mainstream culture since 1977. I'm not sure how you could possibly believe that the films weren't to be found until 1997. Do you think TV didn't exist? VCR's didn't exist?


If you were 8 years old in 1990, what access do you have to those movies?

What about '95?

I am not being ridiculous. For over 10 years most kids first interaction with starwars WAS the toys or stumbling onto one of them when they happened to air on TV. It's not like you had a netflix or tvo and could stream what you wanted. It's not like you could count on your parents buying those VCR tapes.

SOME people had them yes. But the TOYS were EVERYWHERE. You think Lucasfilm was making all that bank all those years off it airing on TV or VCR sales a couple decades later? YOU'RE being ridiculous if you think thats reasonable. I said before, SW is for kids, and nothing shows that more than the merchandise and the toys and how they kept SW in the public conscious for all those years and across age gaps.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 01:24:53


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Yes. I was 10, and the films were on TV multiple times a year. We recorded them. Everyone I knew had Star Wars on tape. The movies were extremely popular in a way that almost nothing else was for an entire generation.


The President of the United States did not name a weapons program after a toy line.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 01:25:07


Post by: Lance845


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Seems more like people who don't like star wars for being star wars, but instead want it to be something different are the most toxic. To hate the fans for being fans is definitely one big "Fan-Hater" sign.

You've been proven wrong several times throughout this thread on various topics though that's for sure.


Ive been proven wrong that the scene I thought was in ANH with the emperor as a hologram was actually in Empire. Ive been proven wrong about nothing else.

I think Fandom in all it's forms is toxic. Fan is the root of both fandom and fanaticism. Like something. Enjoy it. But if you go watch a movie and it "makes me feel nauseous" then you give way too much of a gak about something that does not matter in the least. Dislike it and walk away.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 03:32:18


Post by: sirlynchmob


 Easy E wrote:
Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.


Fascism seems quite popular these days, No one wants a democracy when a dictator will do.

You know how it is though, You might think you have a lot of friends, but you'll never know until you ask them to help you move.

I think the subtext is 'evil will always win because good is dumb'

all that struggling in the OT, pointless, they could have saved a lot of lives if they just stayed home and let vader and the emperor die of old age. Even if the rebellion can find a second ship to start a fleet and blow up the death star mk 4 that they're constructing with the help of some more marketable teddy bears, the first order will still be in charge and just reorganize into the second order for episodes 10-12.




Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 04:14:30


Post by: Scrabb


 Lance845 wrote:
You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?


That is what TFA and TLJ collectively show us, yes.

In TFA the resistance is a splinter group with scarce backing (mostly Leia). They send their best pilot on a secret mission to find Luke. When General Leia personally enters into the fray to wrest control of the map to her brother from the New Order they have a handful of X wings and a shuttle.

The republic fleet is stated to be on a peace footing and completely destroyed by an attack on..... 7(?) planets.


In TLJ we are told the FO has made huge gains and the Resistance is now the only force opposing them. They are shown to have 3 big ships, some fighters, some bombers, and the transports throughout the course of the movie. It is made explicit that all the friends Leia, the leader of the Resistance, has can/will offer no material aid to an existential threat to the Resistance and there are no other cells/fleet groups to meet up with in the Resistance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Crimson Devil, my bad. I can empathize with all that. Especially the car drive bit. Thanks for the context there.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 04:55:43


Post by: dogma


 Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.


Collectors, to this day, reference 3-3/4" action figures as "Star Wars size" despite the fact that the size predates Star Wars and Kenner. Hell, the term "action figure" only gained popularity due to Star Wars

In your analysis, what replaces Star Wars?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 05:27:44


Post by: Peregrine


 Lance845 wrote:
If you were 8 years old in 1990, what access do you have to those movies?


You know that video rental stores existed back then, right? And it's not like Star Wars toys were taking up half the store back then, they were just one set of action figures in a whole store full of them. Star Wars certainly didn't stay a major cultural thing purely based on toy sales, or all those other toy lines that were sold next to Star Wars would be just as big in 2018.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 06:02:05


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


If anything, GI Joe was the series kept alive by toys. Maybe Transformers, too. Compared to them, Star Wars toys were no great shakes, but there were those megapopular movies...

In my opinion, Star Wars toys were barely adequate until the 90's saw the introduction to Micromachines and the far more detailed and poseable action figures. The snap-tite models were the best options for anyone who didn't want to have to use two hands to hold a single spaceship.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 06:20:26


Post by: Manchu


And yet SW is why GI Joes shrunk to three and three quarters. SW toys were hugely important to the market, whether following their lead like GI Joe or buckingbtheir trend, like MotU.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 06:31:40


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Manchu wrote:
And yet SW is why GI Joes shrunk to three and three quarters. SW toys were hugely important to the market, whether following their lead like GI Joe or buckingbtheir trend, like MotU.


I agree that they were massive sellers and massively important. I disagree that Star Wars toys lead to discovery of the movies for a generation rather than the overwhelming popularity of the movies causing the long term success of Star Wars toys.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 06:35:57


Post by: Manchu


I discovered SW because my dad gave me a business card to play with (we were poor) that for whatever reason had picture of Darth Vader on it. I immediately wanted a Darth Vader action figure, which I found at a flea market not long after. Later, I saw the movies ... I believe on CBS or NBC, which played them without commercials I think, as some kind of special event.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 06:49:23


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Well, huh. That is certainly an unusual entrance to the series. Why was Darth Vader on a business card?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 07:58:14


Post by: Lance845


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Well, huh. That is certainly an unusual entrance to the series. Why was Darth Vader on a business card?


And the hosts of the weekly planet podcast,

Mr Sundays first introduction to SW was getting a Akbar figure and Maso was given a gak grey guy from RotJ.

When my older brother had a Millennium Falcon and a Tie fighter and we had a couple characters. I remember playing with them before I have any memory of seeing the movies.



The toys were a massive gateway into SW.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 10:32:55


Post by: dogma


 Peregrine wrote:

You know that video rental stores existed back then, right? And it's not like Star Wars toys were taking up half the store back then, they were just one set of action figures in a whole store full of them. Star Wars certainly didn't stay a major cultural thing purely based on toy sales, or all those other toy lines that were sold next to Star Wars would be just as big in 2018.


To add to your point,: How many people are fiending for the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle toy? Can Lego sell a Leonardo for ~35% above an already high price? No, of course they can't, because while the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles occupy a certain nostalgia space, it is not an iconic franchise.

My dad, not a sci-fi buff by any means, still remembers the first time he went to see Star Wars.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 11:55:17


Post by: AegisGrimm


All I know is that I am a big Star Wars fan, and after hearing all of the spoilers for TLJ, I still have yet to bother to see it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 12:40:13


Post by: BertBert


As a 90's kid, my first exposure to star wars came directly from my parents who made me watch the first trilogy when I was about 7 years old.

As far as toys are concerned, that really only started for me when the prequels came out - and it was mostly Lego.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 16:41:53


Post by: Lance845


 dogma wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

You know that video rental stores existed back then, right? And it's not like Star Wars toys were taking up half the store back then, they were just one set of action figures in a whole store full of them. Star Wars certainly didn't stay a major cultural thing purely based on toy sales, or all those other toy lines that were sold next to Star Wars would be just as big in 2018.


To add to your point,: How many people are fiending for the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle toy? Can Lego sell a Leonardo for ~35% above an already high price? No, of course they can't, because while the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles occupy a certain nostalgia space, it is not an iconic franchise.

My dad, not a sci-fi buff by any means, still remembers the first time he went to see Star Wars.


The value of a collectable has to go through some weird gak to reach high values like your talking about that has nothing to do with how iconic the franchise is.

In the 70s when sw toys were first released kids were regularly given bb guns and fire works and blew up their toys. So first and fore most you have less of the things still in exiastance in any shape worth selling. Second, and to that effect, in order for something to become really valuable it often first has to go through a thing called the trough of no value. The thing has to be worth so little it actually costs you to be holding onto it. Action comics first appearance of superman for example.

THEN people have to suddenly start giving a gak again.

Ninjaturtles toys were 10-15 years latter and especially in the early to mid 90s when everyone started collecting everything to sell one day "when it was worth millions". Because of that none of it depreciated into the trough and none of it became particularly valuable.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 16:51:18


Post by: Kilkrazy


I think Lego Star Wars helped keep the flame alive in the 90s and early 2000s. But I'm not a superfan. I have only a hazy awareness that there were novels and a TV series -- Clone Wars -- outside the three core films. And the prequels, of course, which I never bothered to watch.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 17:05:21


Post by: trexmeyer


 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think Lego Star Wars helped keep the flame alive in the 90s and early 2000s. But I'm not a superfan. I have only a hazy awareness that there were novels and a TV series -- Clone Wars -- outside the three core films. And the prequels, of course, which I never bothered to watch.


So you watched the OT and that's it? Yes, you're not a superfan and I think it would be a stretch for you to claim to be a fan of the franchise opposed to to just the OT. That's not to say EU novels, television series, comic books, and video games were all great, but if you really loved the series how is that you didn't go looking for more material?



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 17:47:39


Post by: Kilkrazy


I don't claim to be a fan, let alone a superfan.

I've seen the five "real" SW films in the cinema and enjoyed them all. I'm booked to see Han Solo next Friday. I'll watch Rogue One on VOD at some point.

To me it's a great, fun, science fantasy blockbuster film series, I've not regretted watching any of the films. I've watched some of them twice in the cinema, and all of the them more then twice on VHS or DVD. I used to have the original VHS set of SW, before Lucas started mucking about with them. The one in which "Han shot first."

It's enough, though. I don't find SW such an inspiring thing that I feel driven to seek out more and more SW material.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 22:00:55


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.


If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 22:16:06


Post by: Lance845


 Vulcan wrote:

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.


Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.

Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...

The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.

You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 22:48:02


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:

If you were 8 years old in 1990, what access do you have to those movies?

What about '95?

I am not being ridiculous. For over 10 years most kids first interaction with starwars WAS the toys or stumbling onto one of them when they happened to air on TV. It's not like you had a netflix or tvo and could stream what you wanted. It's not like you could count on your parents buying those VCR tapes.

SOME people had them yes. But the TOYS were EVERYWHERE. You think Lucasfilm was making all that bank all those years off it airing on TV or VCR sales a couple decades later? YOU'RE being ridiculous if you think thats reasonable. I said before, SW is for kids, and nothing shows that more than the merchandise and the toys and how they kept SW in the public conscious for all those years and across age gaps.




The very first home video release of any Star Wars film came in May 1982 when 20th Century Fox Video released Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope on VHS, Betamax, LaserDisc, CED VideoDisc, and V2000 tape cassettes.

Note that Return of the Jedi was released in theaters May 25th, 1983.

Yes, you are being ridiculous. No, not everyone had a copy of Star Wars, but you can bet your backside the FANS sure did.

Which brings us back to the basic truth. Without the fans buying tickets to the movie in the theater, in no few cases a dozen times or more, Star Wars falls by the wayside as 'yet another Sci-Fi movie'.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 22:52:32


Post by: Lance845


For sure, the movie being successful is what got more movies being made. You are crazy to discredit the merchandising for doing the bulk of the work though.

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows. And SW only reached it's heights because of toys.

The massive downtime between OT and prequels was fueled 100% by merch. And the resurgence of merch is what fueled everything since the remasters (along with the release of the newer toy line).


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 22:59:25


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.


Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.

Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...

The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.

You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.


This may all be true, but if Star Wars had bombed and not made a profit, no one would have made toys from it. Without the toys, then all the rest never happens as you so correctly point out. But that doesn't mean the toys were guaranteed to happen no matter what.

And if the movie had bombed, no one would have wanted to buy the toys in the first place. Heck, sales of TLJ toys has been notoriously soft, and even I have to admit the movie didn't exactly bomb. Suffer enormously from bad writing and terrible pretense on the part of the director, yes, but not truly bomb.

Consider another sci-fi movie that came out a couple years before Star Wars - Battle Beyond the Stars. It was a sci-fi retelling of the Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven. It bombed in the theaters. The characters could have been marketed as action figures, and their ships as toys as well. But because the movie bombed no one bothered doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
For sure, the movie being successful is what got more movies being made. You are crazy to discredit the merchandising for doing the bulk of the work though.

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows. And SW only reached it's heights because of toys.

The massive downtime between OT and prequels was fueled 100% by merch. And the resurgence of merch is what fueled everything since the remasters (along with the release of the newer toy line).


I'm not even remotely arguing that.

I'm trying to tell you something even more basic. If the movie had failed, if the fans had not gone to see the movie over and over again, there would have been no toys in the first place.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 23:04:41


Post by: Azreal13


Lance, go ad watch the relevant episode of this

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7053920/

Then come back and continue the conversation when you've got a better grasp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows.


These shows, alongside MASK, MOTU and many more, were literally vehicles to sell toys. You can't argue that they relied on toys to be successful as tv shows when their very existence was designed to sell toys in the first instance.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 23:14:13


Post by: Lance845


 Azreal13 wrote:
Lance, go ad watch the relevant episode of this

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7053920/

Then come back and continue the conversation when you've got a better grasp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows.


These shows, alongside MASK, MOTU and many more, were literally vehicles to sell toys. You can't argue that they relied on toys to be successful as tv shows when their very existence was designed to sell toys in the first instance.


Ive already watched the toys that made us. And other docs on SW itself that also talk about their toy line.

I didn't say they were successful AS TV shows. I said they were successful as franchises. Transformers was big. Not the TV show. Transformers. And it wouldn't be half as big without the merch.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 23:31:23


Post by: Lance845


 Vulcan wrote:
Spoiler:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.


Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.

Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...

The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.

You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.


This may all be true, but if Star Wars had bombed and not made a profit, no one would have made toys from it. Without the toys, then all the rest never happens as you so correctly point out. But that doesn't mean the toys were guaranteed to happen no matter what.

And if the movie had bombed, no one would have wanted to buy the toys in the first place. Heck, sales of TLJ toys has been notoriously soft, and even I have to admit the movie didn't exactly bomb. Suffer enormously from bad writing and terrible pretense on the part of the director, yes, but not truly bomb.

Consider another sci-fi movie that came out a couple years before Star Wars - Battle Beyond the Stars. It was a sci-fi retelling of the Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven. It bombed in the theaters. The characters could have been marketed as action figures, and their ships as toys as well. But because the movie bombed no one bothered doing it.


I never said the movies were not popular. I am not arguing about if the SW movies have or have not been big successes financially if not critically. What I was arguing was that this amazing run of SW being in the public conscious was not because the movies were some touch stone amazing best thing that has ever existed. It's because clever marketing and a merch line that would not quit kept it in the public conscious long after the movies had run their course. An entire generation (20 years) went by between ANH and the prequels. The movies on their own would NEVER have made that kind of impact on everyone. It's the constant merch that kept it running forever.
Spoiler:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
For sure, the movie being successful is what got more movies being made. You are crazy to discredit the merchandising for doing the bulk of the work though.

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows. And SW only reached it's heights because of toys.

The massive downtime between OT and prequels was fueled 100% by merch. And the resurgence of merch is what fueled everything since the remasters (along with the release of the newer toy line).


I'm not even remotely arguing that.

I'm trying to tell you something even more basic. If the movie had failed, if the fans had not gone to see the movie over and over again, there would have been no toys in the first place.


Great. Good for you to say it. I wasn't arguing that. This whole toy kick started when I said it was the merch that kept the whole thing afloat and you guys started going on about how the movies were the greatest and did it all on their own. The movie didn't fail. The merch was made. Spin off movies (Ewok adventures yo!), toy lines, costumes, birthday decorations and plates, lunch boxes, posters, video games.

These things kept it in the public conscious. Not the movies. Without the merch lines SW would be like any other good film from that era. Alien (79) is arguably a much better piece of cinema from that time with other big ground breaking bits in the movie including strong female characters who are not just there for the guys to chase and get captured, and IT hasn't left the public conscious for a lot of the same reasons (though with much smaller releases). The Kenner AvP toy lines, the video games, the comic books. Alien and Predator have far outlived any movie that didn't merchandise because these things kept them running in the down times.


SW isn't any different or exceptional except in the sheer extent and volume of the merch.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 23:41:19


Post by: Azreal13


 Lance845 wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Lance, go ad watch the relevant episode of this

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7053920/

Then come back and continue the conversation when you've got a better grasp.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows.


These shows, alongside MASK, MOTU and many more, were literally vehicles to sell toys. You can't argue that they relied on toys to be successful as tv shows when their very existence was designed to sell toys in the first instance.


Ive already watched the toys that made us. And other docs on SW itself that also talk about their toy line.

I didn't say they were successful AS TV shows. I said they were successful as franchises. Transformers was big. Not the TV show. Transformers. And it wouldn't be half as big without the merch.


If you've watched the show, you'll be familiar with the story of how people were desperate to buy the toys before the toys existed, so the first Christmas Kenner put a pre order pack on sale as they hadn't had sufficient time to get stock into stores, but knew the demand was massive? Or the reason Lucas got the merch rights because the studio didn't value them and thought they were getting a bargain because they got Lucas for cheap as a result (and this probably contributed to the film being greenlit in the first instance.) The reason being that the studio didn't value merchandise rights as prior to ANH they weren't really a thing. SW essentially created the whole concept.

As for the other franchises, I'm still not clear what your point is when you appear to be saying that franchises based on toys were successful because they sold a lot of toys? Surely that's self evident and has no role in supporting your idea that SW toys drove the movie franchise?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 23:52:49


Post by: Lance845


Because starwars is a movie franchise designed to sell toys like Transformers is a cartoon franchise designed to sell toys.

Duh the toys sold well. SW was built from the ground up to sell them even if fox didnt realize it at the time. The argument that sw movies are some lightning in a bottle pieces of film that carried itself solidly in the minds of several generations for 25ish years between releases is mad. The merch is what did all the heavy lifting and carried it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/19 23:59:02


Post by: Azreal13


The merch that all but disappeared soon after ROTJ left cinemas, but years later the movies were still so popular that manufacturers revisited the idea and made new stuff, prior to the release, or even announcement, of TPM?



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 00:13:11


Post by: Lance845


 Azreal13 wrote:
The merch that all but disappeared soon after ROTJ left cinemas, but years later the movies were still so popular that manufacturers revisited the idea and made new stuff, prior to the release, or even announcement, of TPM?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_video_games


1980s

Star Wars: Jedi Arena (1983) Atari 2600
Star Wars: The Arcade Game (1984) Atari 2600
Star Wars: Droids (1988) Amstrad CPC, ZX Spectrum – based on the Star Wars: Droids series
Death Star Interceptor (1985, System 3 Software Ltd) ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64

1990s

Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire (1996) (3rd person shooter) Nintendo 64, Windows
Star Wars: Masters of Teräs Käsi (1997) (Fighting) PlayStation
Star Wars: Yoda Stories (1997) (Adventure) Windows
Star Wars: Rebellion (Star Wars: Supremacy - UK) (1998) (Real-time strategy) Windows
Star Wars Trilogy Arcade (1998) (Rail shooter) Arcade
Star Wars Millennium Falcon CD-Rom Playset (1998) (Rail shooter-adventure) Windows 95-98-Me


Star Wars (1983–88) - Arcade
Re-released for: Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit family, ColecoVision, BBC Micro, ZX Spectrum, Acorn Electron, Amstrad CPC, Atari ST, Apple II, DOS, Macintosh, Amiga.
Star Wars (1987) - Famicom
Star Wars: Attack on the Death Star (1991) - PC-9801, X68000
Star Wars (1991–93) - NES, Game Boy, Master System, Game Gear
Super Star Wars (1992) - SNES
Re-released for: Wii Virtual Console, PlayStation 4, PlayStation Vita
Star Wars Arcade (1993) - Arcade
Re-released for: 32X

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1982) - Atari 2600, Intellivision
Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1985/88) - Arcade

Re-released for: BBC Micro, Commodore 64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Amiga, Atari.

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1992) - NES, Game Boy
Super Empire Strikes Back (1993) - SNES

Re-released: Wii Virtual Consol


Star Wars: Return of the Jedi – Death Star Battle (1983/84) - Atari 2600, Atari 8-bit family, Atari 5200, ZX Spectrum
Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (1984/88) - Arcade, BBC Micro, Commodore 64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Amiga, Atari ST, GameCube
Super Return of the Jedi (1994) - SNES, Game Boy, Game Gear
Re-released: Wii Virtual Console

Canceled: Star Wars: Return of the Jedi – Ewok Adventure -Atari 2600 (unreleased)

Main article: Star Wars: X-Wing (video game series)
Space simulation

X-Wing (1993) - DOS, Macintosh
Expansion(s): Imperial Pursuit (1993) and B-Wing (1993)

Compilation: X-Wing (Collector's CD-ROM) (1994)

TIE Fighter (1994) - DOS, Macintosh
Expansion(s): Defender of the Empire (1994)

Compilation: TIE Fighter (Collector's CD-ROM) (1995)

Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter (1997) - Windows
Expansions: Balance of Power Campaigns (1997), and Flight School (1998)
X-Wing Alliance (1999) - Windows


Star Wars: Rebel Assault (1993) DOS, Mac, Sega CD, 3DO
Star Wars: Rebel Assault II: The Hidden Empire (1995) DOS, PlayStation Microsoft hello

Star Wars: Dark Forces (1995) DOS, Mac, PlayStation
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II (1997) Windows

Expansion(s): Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith (1998) Windows

Star Wars: Rogue Squadron (1998) Windows, Nintendo 64


Hey look. Even if you JUST look at video games, there was SW stuff being produced almost every other year at minimum from the year RotJ was released all the way up until the remasters and the new toy line was produced.

Again, the only thing exceptional about SW was the sheer volume and it's extensiveness.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 00:22:46


Post by: Azreal13


Were you actually alive during the period under discussion, so I can determine how much detail I can take for granted?

Also, simply listing some stuff that was released does nothing to prove your argument that it was this that drove the popularity of the franchise, and wasn't simply a symptom of the enduring popularity of the films.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 00:33:36


Post by: Lance845


 Azreal13 wrote:
Were you actually alive during the period under discussion, so I can determine how much detail I can take for granted?

Also, simply listing some stuff that was released does nothing to prove your argument that it was this that drove the popularity of the franchise, and wasn't simply a symptom of the enduring popularity of the films.


I was born before the theatrical release of the film "Aliens" (86) but not before the theatrical release of Alien (79).

You can make educated statements based on comparable evidence. Aliens and Predators have never left the public conscious of their age group either with a steady but nowhere near as extensive release of games, toys, comics, novels and other things to keep it alive between movie releases. But nobody can reasonably argue that Alien or Predator or AvP as a franchise is anywhere near as "big" or "pervasive" as SW. And the reason is both volume and targeting a younger audience (hook them while they're young!) with a product designed for all ages instead of matures.

But I would argue that the first Predator Movie is a better action movie then any of the SW movies and the first Alien movie is a far better Scifi and better movie all around then any of the movies in the SW franchise.

Meanwhile movies with no merch mostly drop entirely to the way side. Flight of the Navigator I maintain is a great movie. Even today. But good luck having anyone think about it in the last couple years. Because nothing exists to remind anyone. Same with Rocketeer and Dick Tracy and etc etc....


SW has been relentless. If something new SW wasn't being released in the next 6 months it was definitely within the next 12. It kept it in every ones mind forever.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 00:57:51


Post by: Azreal13


But you're still failing to prove your core argument that the merchandise drove the success and wasn't simply a consequence of the core material's enduring popularity.

To try and argue demand comes after supply, i.e. if you make it they will buy, goes against basic economy, and while it can be argued as somewhat true in the cases of ardent fandom, to suggest it can be sustained for 40 years without the core property being a significant driver of interest in the stuff, rather than vice versa, is going to require more compelling evidence than you've so far presented.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 01:12:10


Post by: Lance845


 Azreal13 wrote:
But you're still failing to prove your core argument that the merchandise drove the success and wasn't simply a consequence of the core material's enduring popularity.

To try and argue demand comes after supply, i.e. if you make it they will buy, goes against basic economy, and while it can be argued as somewhat true in the cases of ardent fandom, to suggest it can be sustained for 40 years without the core property being a significant driver of interest in the stuff, rather than vice versa, is going to require more compelling evidence than you've so far presented.


Likewise, if you think SW is the one and only historical example that has completely pervaded all age groups and many generations day in and day out for over 40 years you are going to need to provide some kind of evidence that the 2 1/2 really good movies in the OT are capable of causing that kind of effect on their own despite a massive EU that is 70-90% total crap, a prequel trilogy that by all reason should have sent the entire thing crashing and burning to the ground, and now the super divisive new trilogy being released.

The movies are not that good. It goes against all reason that SW is as big as it is considering the actual track record of the SW movies. EVEN if you include the other live action bits not in the core 8 movies (Ewok Adventure and the x mas special (The x mas special! How the feth did SW survive!))

The truth is SW is mostly garbage. But it's a garbage that takes it's best bits and makes sure you can never get away from them. SW track record in video games is far more reliable for quality then live action or animated film. You really think the OT is responsible for keeping it in the public conscious when Super Empire, Super RotJ, Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Knight of the Old Republic, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Shadows of the Empire were being released for people to play through?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 01:37:29


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Even your chart shows a ten year gap between product lines. I remember those days, when Star Wars toys were nowhere to be found, but the demeand was still there because the movies were still popular, airing on television frequently. It wasn't until the 90's that they realized how under-supplied the Star Wars market was, and bam! Novels, Games, Power of the Force, Micromachines, Shadows of the Empire. Those didn't sustain Star Wars, they leached off of its surprisingly enduring popularity.

Really, I bought Aliens toys before I ever saw Aliens, but that is no reason to conclude that Aliens merchandise is the only reason people still care about Aliens.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 01:43:41


Post by: Lance845


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Even your chart shows a ten year gap between product lines. I remember those days, when Star Wars toys were nowhere to be found, but the demeand was still there because the movies were still popular, airing on television frequently. It wasn't until the 90's that they realized how under-supplied the Star Wars market was, and bam! Novels, Games, Power of the Force, Micromachines, Shadows of the Empire. Those didn't sustain Star Wars, they leached off of its surprisingly enduring popularity.

Really, I bought Aliens toys before I ever saw Aliens, but that is no reason to conclude that Aliens merchandise is the only reason people still care about Aliens.


The list I copied and pasted from wikipedia is things I only copied and pasted from the year RotJ released until the year the remasters were being released. There is more. And there is no 10 year gap. It's just the part thats relevant to Az's comment.

I never said the merch was the "ONLY " reason people care about SW. I said it did all the heavy lifting to keep it in the public conscious during the long lull between theatrical releases. Your experience with Alien toys isn't much different from an entire generations experience with SW. The only difference is scale and volume.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 01:45:25


Post by: trexmeyer


I was born in 88 and saw the OT and read some books long before I had any SW toys...IIRC I didn't have any outside of makeshift Legos I threw together prior to the SW Lego release. I think the only franchise toys I had were Transformers and I don't care about that all anymore. So the suggestion that kids grew up with the toys being the only reason they know SW is imperfect.

@Killkrazy the point I'm getting is then why be so invested? I read and owned all the HP books. I watched 3 of the movies, hated them, and refuse to waste a second of my life ever watching the rest. Ended up donating the books because I have no intention of reading them again. I haven't seen the Fantastic Beasts movies and won't. I know next to nothing about the secondary merchandise. Sure, the books were good, but that's it.

We could even bring GoT into this discussion in that I love the books. They have their flaws, but as a whole the world is brilliantly imagined. Meanwhile GoT season 6 suffered from atrocious writing. I'll continue to watch the show, and likely be disappointed, but why would I let that impact my enjoyment of the books?

The quality of any new SW content shouldn't impact whether or not anyone enjoys the OT. I never watched Rebels or Clone Wars and frankly don't care. I've heard they're decent. Great, but they could be complete rot and it wouldn't impact my enjoyment of parts of the series I like.

Star Wars is suffering from the same issues that eventually hit all media franchises. It's a combination of over saturation, crass commercialism, and a thematic departure from the OT. Star Trek had the exact same issue and is continuing to experience it. While I do like TOS up to most of Voyager I can't deny that the latter series (and even the TOS films) fail capture the elements that made TOS great. Especially DS9, even though it is my favorite of the series. I could go into more detail on the issues, but I think that it is outside the scope of this thread.

In Star Wars' case it is worse (well maybe...the reboot movies aren't great and Discovery is terrible) because 7 was little more than a rehash of ANH and that hack of a director Abrams asked a bunch of questions that he had no intention to answer.


TLDR: The impact of Star Wars merchandise is probably exaggerated and the quality of sequels shouldn't impact your own enjoyment of the OT.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 01:50:15


Post by: Lance845


 trexmeyer wrote:

The quality of any new SW content shouldn't impact whether or not anyone enjoys the OT. I never watched Rebels or Clone Wars and frankly don't care. I've heard they're decent. Great, but they could be complete rot and it wouldn't impact my enjoyment of parts of the series I like.


This bit I 100% agree with.

The people who says "such and such is ruining my childhood" are saying the dumbest thing in the world. Your child hood is still there. Go watch it. The thing you like didn't go away because they made something new.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 02:21:35


Post by: Voss


 KTG17 wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
and the toy sales are abysmal for a Star Wars film.


I think toy play habits among kids has really changed over the years. Toys R Us going out of business is a testament to that..

It isn't even vaguely. Toys'R'Us going out of business has nothing to do with sales- they were bought out years ago, saddled with ridiculous debt by their new parent company ($5 billion) and left to twist in the wind.


http://www.businessinsider.com/why-toys-r-us-is-closing-stores-2018-3


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 05:18:06


Post by: Manchu


As someone who spent years of his childhood digging around flea markets and yard sales to find SW toys to play with, I can tell you guys that (at least in the US) this was the only way to get them from about 1988 through 1994 (when SW MicroMachines came out). Kenner was purchased by Hasbro in the early 90s but there were no three and three quarters SW figs until 1995. The whole thing, especially Shadows of the Empire (a movie licensing event minus the movie - it even had a soundtrack!) was, in hindsight, pretty clearly a run up ... and probably a funding track for ... the prequel trilogy.

For the whole time I was young enough to play with toys, there were no SW action figures available at toy stores. (The '95 Power of the Force release was just past when I lost interest in toys ... I saved up to get all of Wave 1 but never took them out of their blisters!) Nonetheless, the toys were so compelling to me that I amassed a fairly large collection as a younger kid of the old toys, buying them for a nickel or a quarter or so a fig from parents cleaning out their empty nests.

We did not have a VCR until they became affordable for the masses and it must have been 93 or 94 before we had the trilogy on VHS. Of course I watched them until they all but broke. But by then I was already firmly a huge SW fan, despite SW being missing from the mass assault on children from toy advertisers. Other kids my age did not care about Star Wars, generally speaking.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 05:48:15


Post by: dogma


 Lance845 wrote:

The value of a collectable has to go through some weird gak to reach high values like your talking about that has nothing to do with how iconic the franchise is.


I think it does. The 1988 Turtles Party Wagon, with all the Turtles, goes for ~80 USD on Ebay. About the only thing Turtle related that's worth any money is the SNES Turtles in Time, and that's because it's a great game.

Conversely, I just sold an untested copy of N64 Star Wars Racer for 75 USD at my parents' garage sale.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 12:43:46


Post by: timetowaste85


 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


I was a huge Star Wars fan, and even enjoyed the Vong series that so many despise. I hated TLJ, and have become apathetic to episode 9. I wasn’t toxic to Star Wars. But this movie was crap, and ruined it. If you like it, good on you for having poor taste in a terrible movie. But when 95% of us on here say it’s terrible, and you tell us “good, piss off”, well think about it this way; if they lose 95% of ticket sales, how many more episodes do you think you’ll get? Yes, I get that Dakka is only a sampling of fans. But if you think we’re the only ones who hated a movie that crapped all over a series we all used to love, you’re pathetically wrong.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 14:30:49


Post by: Lance845


 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


I was a huge Star Wars fan, and even enjoyed the Vong series that so many despise. I hated TLJ, and have become apathetic to episode 9. I wasn’t toxic to Star Wars. But this movie was crap, and ruined it. If you like it, good on you for having poor taste in a terrible movie. But when 95% of us on here say it’s terrible, and you tell us “good, piss off”, well think about it this way; if they lose 95% of ticket sales, how many more episodes do you think you’ll get? Yes, I get that Dakka is only a sampling of fans. But if you think we’re the only ones who hated a movie that crapped all over a series we all used to love, you’re pathetically wrong.


The negative always yell the loudest but they rarely make up anything close to a majority. If you think they will make episode 9 and it won't make hundreds of millions of dollars you are pathetically wrong. Nothing in 7 or 8 was nearly as bad as 1 2 or 3 and SW did just fine.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 14:58:43


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


I was a huge Star Wars fan, and even enjoyed the Vong series that so many despise. I hated TLJ, and have become apathetic to episode 9. I wasn’t toxic to Star Wars. But this movie was crap, and ruined it. If you like it, good on you for having poor taste in a terrible movie. But when 95% of us on here say it’s terrible, and you tell us “good, piss off”, well think about it this way; if they lose 95% of ticket sales, how many more episodes do you think you’ll get? Yes, I get that Dakka is only a sampling of fans. But if you think we’re the only ones who hated a movie that crapped all over a series we all used to love, you’re pathetically wrong.


The negative always yell the loudest but they rarely make up anything close to a majority. If you think they will make episode 9 and it won't make hundreds of millions of dollars you are pathetically wrong. Nothing in 7 or 8 was nearly as bad as 1 2 or 3 and SW did just fine.
Actually, I think a large reason people go and keep watching is because it's essentially an obligation. It's just a thing you do, because it's so much a part of society.

Almost in the same way people watch the Super Bowl, or the World Cup, or the Olympics - I can largely say that most people watching don't have a vested interest, they're not superfans, they don't have much of an emotional connection - but it's so socially ingrained to do, you just do it.

I can personally say this is my experience. I didn't have much of a problem with 7, quite liked it (I prefer 3 though) and really don't like 8. Will I watch 9? Yeah, because I feel socially obligated to.

However, if this new trilogy wasn't supported by the films that came before, and the vast weight society has applied to the Star Wars brand, I doubt there'd be a tenth of the people going back to see 9.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 15:02:44


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


Years ago, people said I was 'talking crazy' when I said that Disney taking Star Wars and Marvel would reduce both of those franchises to a dumpster fire.

I still have to rest my legs from doing my "told you so" dance so often.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 15:06:45


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Years ago, people said I was 'talking crazy' when I said that Disney taking Star Wars and Marvel would reduce both of those franchises to a dumpster fire.

I still have to rest my legs from doing my "told you so" dance so often.
Can't say I agree on Marvel, but Star Wars has had some bad calls. If that's purely because it's Disney, however, is up for debate.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 15:08:43


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Can't say I agree on Marvel, but Star Wars has had some bad calls. If that's purely because it's Disney, however, is up for debate.


Marvel movies are great. I enjoy them.

Their comics, however, have become a cesspit and their writers and editors are a toxic mob of scumbags that shouldn't be putting together hamburgers for a dollar an hour, much less comic books.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 15:40:17


Post by: Lance845


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


I was a huge Star Wars fan, and even enjoyed the Vong series that so many despise. I hated TLJ, and have become apathetic to episode 9. I wasn’t toxic to Star Wars. But this movie was crap, and ruined it. If you like it, good on you for having poor taste in a terrible movie. But when 95% of us on here say it’s terrible, and you tell us “good, piss off”, well think about it this way; if they lose 95% of ticket sales, how many more episodes do you think you’ll get? Yes, I get that Dakka is only a sampling of fans. But if you think we’re the only ones who hated a movie that crapped all over a series we all used to love, you’re pathetically wrong.


The negative always yell the loudest but they rarely make up anything close to a majority. If you think they will make episode 9 and it won't make hundreds of millions of dollars you are pathetically wrong. Nothing in 7 or 8 was nearly as bad as 1 2 or 3 and SW did just fine.
Actually, I think a large reason people go and keep watching is because it's essentially an obligation. It's just a thing you do, because it's so much a part of society.

Almost in the same way people watch the Super Bowl, or the World Cup, or the Olympics - I can largely say that most people watching don't have a vested interest, they're not superfans, they don't have much of an emotional connection - but it's so socially ingrained to do, you just do it.

I can personally say this is my experience. I didn't have much of a problem with 7, quite liked it (I prefer 3 though) and really don't like 8. Will I watch 9? Yeah, because I feel socially obligated to.

However, if this new trilogy wasn't supported by the films that came before, and the vast weight society has applied to the Star Wars brand, I doubt there'd be a tenth of the people going back to see 9.


I don't watch the Superbowl, Wold Cup, or the Olympics.

You should stop doing things because you think you should and start doing them because you want to. Especially if you don't like a thing. Capitalism. Vote with your dollars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Can't say I agree on Marvel, but Star Wars has had some bad calls. If that's purely because it's Disney, however, is up for debate.


Marvel movies are great. I enjoy them.

Their comics, however, have become a cesspit and their writers and editors are a toxic mob of scumbags that shouldn't be putting together hamburgers for a dollar an hour, much less comic books.


Comics have ALWAYS been majority trash. Theres like 10-20% of all comics that are any good at all.

That being said they really need to get Ike Permutter the feth out of there.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 15:44:23


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:

Comics have ALWAYS been majority trash. Theres like 10-20% of all comics that are any good at all.

That being said they really need to get Ike Permutter the feth out of there.


First and foremost, they need to remind the people working at Marvel that they're talking to customers on social media, and that it doesn't take much to just stop insulting everyone you disagree with.

Absolutely no industry in the world tolerates that kind of scum. They need to be hurled out the door and forgotten.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 16:17:37


Post by: Ouze


That feeling when the studio that released the 3rd highest grossing movie of all time in the US a few months ago is described as "running it into the ground".





Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 16:25:03


Post by: Lance845


But hey, his legs are tired from dancing too much about being right?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 16:26:51


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
But hey, his legs are tired from dancing too much about being right?


So if something makes a lot of money on its opening weekend, it's good. Mind you, it was also a 77% plunge after opening weekend- one of the biggest for a movie like this (in the Star Wars franchise)- so it didn't take long for that word to get out that it sucked.

Yes, those legs are tired from dancing. Aching, even.

Please, tell me about the awesome storytelling from The Last Jedi and how consistent and solid the plot was.

But then again, spineless incels are afraid to criticize this movie. Some neon-haired woman might get upset over it, can't have that.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:08:42


Post by: Lance845


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
But hey, his legs are tired from dancing too much about being right?


So if something makes a lot of money on its opening weekend, it's good. Mind you, it was also a 77% plunge after opening weekend- one of the biggest for a movie like this (in the Star Wars franchise)- so it didn't take long for that word to get out that it sucked.

Yes, those legs are tired from dancing. Aching, even.

Please, tell me about the awesome storytelling from The Last Jedi and how consistent and solid the plot was.

But then again, spineless incels are afraid to criticize this movie. Some neon-haired woman might get upset over it, can't have that.


It says a lot about you that you

1) didn't understand that we were talking about Marvel.

2) Jump strait to insults and calling people Incels (i had to look up what that even was)

3) think people who dye their hair fit into some kind of box that you find derogatory.

Keep on keeping on Adeptus. You can keep bigoting all you want over there. It's all right.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:13:26


Post by: Adeptus Doritos




Defending either, outside of the Marvel cinematic movies, makes you fit that bill. IMHO. Star Wars movies and current Marvel Comics are trash, and getting upset about criticism of those things makes you a bit of a sad creature in my book.

Judging someone by their absurd hair color is no more 'bigoted' than judging them for a stupid tattoo or some other idiotic cosmetic purchase. It's a hair color, not an ethnicity or sexuality. Stop acting like it's a problem.

There is a lot that can be said of you as well, young man- but I'm trying to be nice.

...and I don't think you warrant the words.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:13:43


Post by: Manchu


Folks, this is a good time to remind everyone that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:15:21


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Manchu wrote:
Folks, this is a good time to remind everyone that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!


Considering you seem to be the only person I've seen enforce this rule with any degree of fairness, I will respect your request.

Also, you have a message from me. HMU when you get a moment.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:24:14


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Lance845 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


I was a huge Star Wars fan, and even enjoyed the Vong series that so many despise. I hated TLJ, and have become apathetic to episode 9. I wasn’t toxic to Star Wars. But this movie was crap, and ruined it. If you like it, good on you for having poor taste in a terrible movie. But when 95% of us on here say it’s terrible, and you tell us “good, piss off”, well think about it this way; if they lose 95% of ticket sales, how many more episodes do you think you’ll get? Yes, I get that Dakka is only a sampling of fans. But if you think we’re the only ones who hated a movie that crapped all over a series we all used to love, you’re pathetically wrong.


The negative always yell the loudest but they rarely make up anything close to a majority. If you think they will make episode 9 and it won't make hundreds of millions of dollars you are pathetically wrong. Nothing in 7 or 8 was nearly as bad as 1 2 or 3 and SW did just fine.
Actually, I think a large reason people go and keep watching is because it's essentially an obligation. It's just a thing you do, because it's so much a part of society.

Almost in the same way people watch the Super Bowl, or the World Cup, or the Olympics - I can largely say that most people watching don't have a vested interest, they're not superfans, they don't have much of an emotional connection - but it's so socially ingrained to do, you just do it.

I can personally say this is my experience. I didn't have much of a problem with 7, quite liked it (I prefer 3 though) and really don't like 8. Will I watch 9? Yeah, because I feel socially obligated to.

However, if this new trilogy wasn't supported by the films that came before, and the vast weight society has applied to the Star Wars brand, I doubt there'd be a tenth of the people going back to see 9.


I don't watch the Superbowl, Wold Cup, or the Olympics.
I didn't say you did.

I said "people" did, not necessarily meaning yourself. You know, people, meaning a general collective, of which there are often exceptions?

And I think that's a very valid point - a lot of people will do and see certain things because it's almost culturally and socially obliged that you do. I think Star Wars has reached the point where even if you're not a massive fan, or even slightly interested, you'll go and see it, because almost everyone is.

You should stop doing things because you think you should and start doing them because you want to. Especially if you don't like a thing. Capitalism. Vote with your dollars.
Let's make this clear: I like Star Wars. I don't like TLJ. I'm not saying Star Wars is ruined, nor have I ever said that. However, I'm not optimistic about how it's going. Does that mean that I won't see the film? No, because as I said above, societal obligations, and also that I want to see what happens next, because maybe, just maybe, they might resolve it in a way I personally like.

Does that mean I'm not allowed to criticize the film, because I paid money for it? No - my voice in criticism is how I tell the company that I don't like their product. Hopefully, the next time they make something, they'll appeal to the voices they care about, which might be mine - I'll never know if they appeal to me if I don't purchase their product again.
I'm not at the point where I'm done with Star Wars. I still care. But that doesn't mean I have to be happy with what they've done.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:28:03


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Pretty much anyone with kids HAS to see every Star Wars film.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:29:42


Post by: Lance845


Sgt_Smudge, you took the things I said WAY too seriously.

-You are allowed to criticize. You are welcome to it.

-I guess some people watch TV because they think they have to? I don't know. I don't and I don't know anyone who does.

-Like what you like and like it to the extent that you like it. Nobody is going to stop you. If you like SW enough to give giving them your money then they will take it. If you don't like it enough to keep paying movie theater prices then red box/netflix it. It will get there eventually. If you don't like it your welcome to say so.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:30:22


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Pretty much anyone with kids HAS to see every Star Wars film.


This is understandable. I've written this whole series off as a children's show.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:42:23


Post by: Lance845


I am sure TLJ ill sell tons of the new bomber ships and and tie fighters with extra rockets on them as soon as they get around to making them. There really haven't been any toys made of any of the new stuff yet. So ANOTHER Rey/Finn that looks just like the last movie? Yep. Didn't sell super well.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:45:37


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
I am sure TLJ ill sell tons of the new bomber ships and and tie fighters with extra rockets on them as soon as they get around to making them. There really haven't been any toys made of any of the new stuff yet. So ANOTHER Rey/Finn that looks just like the last movie? Yep. Didn't sell super well.


Dude, there's figures on the shelf for two bucks. The first wave didn't make the cash, the second one isn't. Because some idiot at Hasbro didn't learn the lesson- kids don't want 4-5 different scales of action figure. They want a lot of compatible figures that work with a lot of vehicles.

GI Joe figured this out a long time ago with the Sgt. Savage, GI Joe Extreme, and Sigma 6 debacle. Not sure why Hasbro forgot this.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:45:57


Post by: Manchu


Despite the warning above, I have had to clean out a raft of posts from this thread. Please stick to arguing about Star Wars - the points only please, not about each others' alleged characters. Thanks!


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:49:35


Post by: Lance845


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
I am sure TLJ ill sell tons of the new bomber ships and and tie fighters with extra rockets on them as soon as they get around to making them. There really haven't been any toys made of any of the new stuff yet. So ANOTHER Rey/Finn that looks just like the last movie? Yep. Didn't sell super well.


Dude, there's figures on the shelf for two bucks. The first wave didn't make the cash, the second one isn't. Because some idiot at Hasbro didn't learn the lesson- kids don't want 4-5 different scales of action figure. They want a lot of compatible figures that work with a lot of vehicles.

GI Joe figured this out a long time ago with the Sgt. Savage, GI Joe Extreme, and Sigma 6 debacle. Not sure why Hasbro forgot this.


Sure. So what exactly does that have to do with the movie?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 17:51:32


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
Sure. So what exactly does that have to do with the movie?


...you literally just said it was 'always a movie to sell stuff to kids'.

I showed you how that was not working.

So it's either a 'kids' movie designed to sell stuff to kids' and failed at that, or it is any other movie I can criticize for any of its MANY flaws.

Or both.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:06:01


Post by: Lance845


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Sure. So what exactly does that have to do with the movie?


...you literally just said it was 'always a movie to sell stuff to kids'.

I showed you how that was not working.

So it's either a 'kids' movie designed to sell stuff to kids' and failed at that, or it is any other movie I can criticize for any of its MANY flaws.

Or both.


You said the movie was bad, and as a result has had poor sales of toys. Then you went on to explain how hasbro has had a really poor production plan for their toys which has made their various line incompatible and cause problems for the toy sales.

I agree with the hasbro bit. Hasbro has been releasing so many different lines of toys at different scales and it's become 5 different figures of the same character in the same clothes with different levels of posibility and detail. Thats bad. It's not great for toy stores to stock and it's not great for kids to play with.

What does that have to do with the movie? In what capacity does Hasbro having a crap production plan for various waves of SW toys reflect on the quality of the film?

I see your opinion about the movie being bad. You're welcome to it. I see your argument for why hasbro has crapped the bed in the toy department. I concur. I do not see the correlation between your opinion of the movie and the toy sales. There is no logic there.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:09:43


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:

What does that have to do with the movie? In what capacity does Hasbro having a crap production plan for various waves of SW toys reflect on the quality of the film?


Well, you made it out like the purpose of the movie was to be childrens' entertainment and sell toys. So if the end goal was to 'sell toys to kids', well... it failed harder than the others did by a long shot.

Again, much of that lies on Hasbro because a lot of those toys don't look fun at all.

Star Wars undeniably made a TON of money opening weekend. And it's always going to. Every movie is. Star Wars is big, but objectively it is bad in terms of plot. Like, it's awful.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:21:37


Post by: Lance845


Objective Fact: Starwars is for Kids. George Lucas has said it from day 1. Also Objective Fact: Lucas took a cut from his directors pay to get merch rights because he wanted to sell crap for kids.

Ipso facto - Starwars is for kids and designed as a vehicle for selling merch to children.

If at any point you feel like SW has become dumb or childish you are forgetting what SW is.

I agree with your assessment on hasbros recent production plan. I disagree with your assessment of the movie. My favorite starwars in order are RotJ (I know Empire is better but I like Jedi More), Empire, TLJ, TFA, ANH, and all the prequels are in the same dumpster fire.

TLJ beats TFA because I am so glad they made a clean break from all of SW past bull crap.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:25:28


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:


If at any point you feel like SW has become dumb or childish you are forgetting what SW is.


Oh, I've felt that way since 'Greedo shot first'.

And sadly, back then the movies were still better written than they are now. TLJ is poorly written, and an outright grab-ass version of Star Wars. It's what I would expect if a bunch of hipsters acquired random Star Wars figures and had seen the movies a couple of times and read a few wiki articles.

I believe people are trying too hard to forgive the flaws in these movies because 'muh female lead' (the one with all the personality of a cardboard cutout).


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:28:08


Post by: Lance845


Yeah, Cause Luke Skywalker had TONS of personality in ANH.

I believe Reys search for her parents. A lot more then I believe Lukes upset at Obiwan turning into a pile of robes. (Can anyone actually explain what happened there btw?)


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:30:24


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah, Cause Luke Skywalker had TONS of personality in ANH.


He had heaps more than Rey, and actually had a journey to discover his powers instead of being a lazily-written Mary Sue. Rey. Is. Trash.

 Lance845 wrote:
I believe Reys search for her parents. A lot more then I believe Lukes upset at Obiwan turning into a pile of robes. (Can anyone actually explain what happened there btw?)


If you can't believe Obi-Wan turning into a spectral Force entity, you should be disgusted by the end of TLJ. If you're going to make arguments for that heap of feces, be consistent in your gripes.

And her parents? "LOL F you they were nothing" is laziness at its writing. That's what I expect from a teenager writing fanfiction in a trapper-keeper, not a writer with a career in Hollywood.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:47:53


Post by: Lance845


No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.

Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.

Luke is a mary sue. So is han solo. Han solo more so.

They were nobody is the point. The hero can be anybody is the point. The break away from families and legacies is what makes tlj so good.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 18:52:30


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.

Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.

Luke is a mary sue. So is han solo. Han solo more so.

They were nobody is the point. The hero can be anybody is the point. The break away from families and legacies is what makes tlj so good.


Luke got training and had a journey, a short one- but he was a farm boy that learned.

Han had a history that was alluded to. He didn't just show up, grab a control stick, and become an awesome pilot.

Rey showed up and had powers. Lazy writing by any and all standards.

Also, 'anyone can be a hero'- okay, well you don't explain that with one throw-away line.

Also, what's worse- useless lightsaber twirls, or edited blades in a saber fight because it was choreographed poorly?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:01:35


Post by: Lance845


Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.

Han is a drug smuggling piece of gak that everyone loves despite his many flaws in character.

Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.

The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:03:48


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
I am sure TLJ ill sell tons of the new bomber ships and and tie fighters with extra rockets on them as soon as they get around to making them. There really haven't been any toys made of any of the new stuff yet. So ANOTHER Rey/Finn that looks just like the last movie? Yep. Didn't sell super well.


Dude, there's figures on the shelf for two bucks. The first wave didn't make the cash, the second one isn't. Because some idiot at Hasbro didn't learn the lesson- kids don't want 4-5 different scales of action figure. They want a lot of compatible figures that work with a lot of vehicles.

GI Joe figured this out a long time ago with the Sgt. Savage, GI Joe Extreme, and Sigma 6 debacle. Not sure why Hasbro forgot this.


Perhaps that's why there are no Micromachines for TLJ: TFA had Hot Wheels Die Cast in direct competition with the Micromachines for a film with no unique or interesting spaceships. Rogue One had a couple Micromachines sets and HWDC, but no capital ships. And now, there doesn't seem to be either. I'd buy the crap out of some new SW capital ship toys or snap tite models.

(As much as I love the design, I'm not spending ridiculous FFG prices for the Raddus.)


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:04:17


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.


And trained with Yoda long before his first lightsaber fight with an actual force-user, and got his ass kicked.

 Lance845 wrote:
Han is a drug smuggling piece of gak that everyone loves despite his many flaws in character.


Yes, a flawed character. You know, the opposite of a boring Mary Sue. It's called making relatable characters because real people aren't perfect, and it helps the immersion.

 Lance845 wrote:
Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.


Anakin has faster reflexes from the Force. He wasn't throwing people around, doing mind-tricks, snagging weapons out of the air, etc.

 Lance845 wrote:
The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.


No, the actual difference is 'bad writers put Rey in a story'.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:11:20


Post by: Lance845


One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.

Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.

Luke blew up the death star with no force training.

Anakin was 6. Rey is 20ish?

Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.

Rey, like leia, has talent. Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:15:21


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.


Yes. See also: Rey.

 Lance845 wrote:
Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.


Wrong. He gets captured. He's abraisive. He's weakened at multiple points. His marriage falls apart.

 Lance845 wrote:
Luke blew up the death star with no force training.


Being guided by Obi-Wan. He had much more training than Rey did before she was throwing tricks around.

 Lance845 wrote:
Anakin was 6. Rey is 20ish?


Reflexes and actual force powers are not the same thing.

 Lance845 wrote:
Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.


What parody are you watching?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:17:51


Post by: Ouze


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

So if something makes a lot of money on its opening weekend, it's good.


Certainly by the studio's metric. It's show business, not show fun.

But in this case I was referring to Black Panther, in response to "Disney is running the SW/MCU into the ground". It's the 3rd biggest movie domestically of all time, and did so while getting a 97% on rotten tomatoes. While TLJ didn't do as well as expectations, that probably has a lot to do with that it didn't get a full release in China, which is a huge blow in 2018. Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:18:59


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Ouze wrote:
... Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.


Rotten Tomatoes deleted bad reviews of Black Panther. If you think they're any sort of credible source, you're smoking crack. Much of the actual thinking public that isn't getting a paycheck to review something actually didn't like TLJ.

And while we're at it, Black Panther was overrated and people were too chicken gak to say so.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:28:14


Post by: Lance845


Reflexes are actual force powers. Are you not paying attention to the movies? The jedi have no power. The force flows through them. Any enhancment of their speed and reflexes and forsight. And spider sense like feelings that help them. Its all force stuff.

Https://nerdist.com/star-wars-yoda-leia-there-is-another/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvBNPAcFkk#


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:28:54


Post by: Ouze


So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:29:25


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
Reflexes are actual force powers. Are you not paying attention to the movies? The jedi have no power. The force flows through them. Any enhancment of their speed and reflexes and forsight. And spider sense like feelings that help them. Its all force stuff.


Jedi are still trained in their abilities. Was Anakin or Leia or Luke using mind tricks? No.

Flawed argument.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:31:06


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.


Rogue One was subtle with it, almost like you weren't sure it was happening.

TLJ took it to a new level, but TFA is the one that started it. Because writing someone who grows and learns skills requires talent.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:34:18


Post by: Lance845


 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.


ANH. Everyone is shocked by the size of the target "its impossible" its not impossible, i used to bullseye swamp rats with my t16.

Force sensitive people use the force all the time without realizing it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:35:27


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Lance845 wrote:
Force sensitive people use the force all the time without realizing it.


But none of them were doing anything more than a 'reflexive' ability. No one was a master swordsman or using mind tricks or yanking things out of the sky with their powers.

Again, this is not a valid argument.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:38:11


Post by: Ouze


 Lance845 wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.


ANH. Everyone is shocked by the size of the target "its impossible" its not impossible, i used to bullseye swamp rats with my t16.

Force sensitive people use the force all the time without realizing it.


You're talking about when he bent the torpedo, right? Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

I don't really understand where the franchise is going, but it seems like maybe they're going to have everyone be able to use force type stuff on a very low level and no more specialists like the Jedi. If so then honestly that seems a lot like how they ended Buffy, and it was sort of lame there. IIRC - it's been a while - there were no more slayers and all girls had a little tiny bit of slayer power.



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:39:38


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


 Ouze wrote:

I don't really understand where the franchise is going, but it seems like maybe they're going to have everyone be able to use force type stuff on a very low level and no more specialists like the Jedi. If so then honestly that seems a lot like how they ended Buffy, and it was sort of lame there.


Think of it, in a way, like any other psionic ability or magical ability. You may be able to catch a football that you was really close to unlikely. You may have subtle influences around you. But you aren't throwing fireballs and levitating unless you're trained on how to focus that ability.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:43:02


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Ouze wrote:
So when did this thing with non-Jedi being able to channel the force start? Rogue One? I'm not a super expert in the canon.


Since ANH, at least indirectly.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 19:44:45


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Objective Fact: Starwars is for Kids. George Lucas has said it from day 1. Also Objective Fact: Lucas took a cut from his directors pay to get merch rights because he wanted to sell crap for kids.

Ipso facto - Starwars is for kids and designed as a vehicle for selling merch to children.
It's like how you ignored that the main reason he did this (as was explained earlier) because it made it far more palatable to studio's to take on a new guys project because overall at the time ticket sales were the defining factor behind profitability, not merchandising rights. Which helped the idea of greenlighting this new guys film.

Also after reading your posts.. I genuinely don't know what your argument is besides "Star wars is bad, always has been bad" while at the same time providing statements that have been proven false already in this thread (the toys), and when shown you are wrong you move onto another section of Star Wars to attack while ignoring you've been proven wrong.. Then moving back onto said arguments when you think people have forgotten.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 20:36:25


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?

Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 20:37:09


Post by: Pumpkin


TLJ is easily my favourite Star Wars film since ESB.

Not just in terms mulling it over after the fact - weighing the pros and cons - but also in terms of sitting there in the cinema and just being blown away.

It was bold, it was unexpected, and it was spectacular. I loved it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 20:40:28


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?

Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.

The resistance ships are pretty much meh. The T-70 X-wings are fine but they are mostly just a standard update to the T-65's, I hate the look of the bombers.

I love all the Rogue One ships that were shown, the TIE striker and TIE reapers are excellent in design. Along with the U-wing and various other things there.

Mostly I hate how the new trilogy squanders things.. Rather then having new ships, the First Order just uses better TIE fighters and Bombers, the only real new ship being the TIE SF.. Which is just a double seated TIE fighter with torpedo's.

Not to mention that rather then creating a new major ship for the group they just reuse the Millennium falcon. At the very least they could've gotten a new ship... Even just upgrading to like the YT-2400 instead would've given them some new interesting flagship of the new series.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 20:47:10


Post by: Lance845


I kind of really enjoyed the luxury ship they stole from the casino. It was the first time we saw the inside of a ship like that that was clean and notthe weird mirrored naboo shipthat didnt look like you would want to be in it for long.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 20:54:15


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I should have specified "new designs", as one of my biggest gripes with TFA is that all the ships look like barely-tweaked copies of OT ships...except for the space lander, which looks like a boat, in space. I really expected Disney to cram in all sorts of new toys--er, ships into the new films.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 20:55:26


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Lance845 wrote:Yeah, Cause Luke Skywalker had TONS of personality in ANH.
As much as any starting hero in a Hero's Journey (which is what ANH is).

We can see that he has dreams, he is open to the world around him, he has ambition, he has motivations. That's a character.

I believe Reys search for her parents. A lot more then I believe Lukes upset at Obiwan turning into a pile of robes. (Can anyone actually explain what happened there btw?)
I completely Luke's reaction to seeing the man who has opened your eyes to the world around you and the cause you really care for being killed in front of you. Rey's search is also believable.

Obi-Wan is killed, but him turning straight to robes I believe is because he was already one with the force by the time of his death, so much so that his body just fell apart. Again, that's my take.

Lance845 wrote:No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.
I do. I don't believe Rey can be better at flying the Falcon than Han. Welcome to Star Wars.

Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.
He had been meditating on Tatooine long before that fight. He knew he was about to die. He prepared his mind and body, like he had been doing so on Tatooine.

He didn't get beat, so much as chose to be struck down.

Luke is a mary sue. So is han solo. Han solo more so.
Neither are Mary Sues by definition. It's even more ironic considering what you later say about Luke, which are distinctly un-MS traits.

"Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything"
"Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap"
Sorry, if Luke's THAT bad, how on earth can he be classed a Mary Sue?

They were nobody is the point. The hero can be anybody is the point. The break away from families and legacies is what makes tlj so good.
I like this message. I actually DO really like the fact Rey's parents don't matter. It's a good message.

What I DON'T like is that Rey's abilities are unexplained. I'm absolutely for her power not coming from her parents. But I do want, nay, expect to know WHY our protagonist is the protagonist. Why, in the general galactic fates, is SHE important? I mean, she clearly isn't just average, she is inordinarily powerful ("I've only seen such raw strength once before"), but we're given no reason.

This is a hallmark of Mary Sue-ism - they're powerful "just because".

Anakin is powerful because of his virgin birth, and his status as "The Chosen One". Cliche as it is, it works in a setting where Chosen Ones and fate are tangible.
Luke is powerful due to his descent from Anakin, and his role in fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy.
Leia is powerful due to her descent from Anakin, and her role in fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy.
Kylo is powerful due to his descent from Anakin. Seeing as the Chosen One prophecy had previously apparently been completed, it is unknown if that is still a factor.
Rey is powerful... howso?

Lance845 wrote:Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.
More than Rey. Luke's training was specifically to harness the Force. Rey has done no actual Force oriented training.

Han is a drug smuggling piece of gak that everyone loves despite his many flaws in character.
And that's why people love him - because flaws make a character.

Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.
Yes - however, there's normal power, and then there's Rey, who is apparently leagues above other Jedi for no apparent reason.

The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.
Rey was a scavenger, on a world that the First Order clearly had power over, and believed that the Jedi were a myth. She outright says it in TFA. How can you not remember that?

Lance845 wrote:One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.
Another is that their strengths come from seemingly nowhere.

Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.
He also gets frozen in carbonite, betrayed, gets estranged from his son and wife, loses his home, one of his best friends, and lives out most of his life as a smuggler again, his reputation long since abandoned him.

He had won things, but we saw him put effort in. He risks his life in the trench run. He works to win over Leia. He is tortured by Vader. He is captured when an old friend betrays him. He accidentally beats Fett, but Fett wasn't even paying attention to him. It was a complete fluke, but not because of Han even consciously doing anything. He uses all of his guile and tricks on Endor's moon to take it down.

Luke blew up the death star with no force training.
T-16 womp rat shooting skills established, and he was being guided by Obi-Wan.

Anakin was 6. Rey is 20ish?
Anakin is also the Chosen One, and was immaculately conceived. Rey is not.

Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.
Incorrect. Have you actually watched ESB/ROTS?

Yoda never says he wants Leia over Luke. He only ever comes close to mentioning Leia in ESB when Obi-Wan says "That boy is our last hope." to which he replies "No, there is another". Luke was still his first pick, as his actions in ROTS show, telling Obi-Wan to look over him, and train him when the time comes. He never gives such an order to Bail Organa.

Rey, like leia, has talent. Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything.
Rey has talent. Leia has talent. Luke has talent. However, he also has reasonable doubts, considering that most of his life has been as a moisture farmer. Then someone tells him that his father was a Jedi Knight, the best star pilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior, that a princess needs rescuing, and then sees his adoptive parents burnt to a crisp, which acts as his catalyst.

Luke has the talent. However, he is still naive and believably takes time in showing his true abilities. Leia has been raised almost since birth to fight in the Rebellion, but he Force abilities don't manifest much at all in the originals. Rey has natural survival skills, which is believable, but her Force talent springs on FAR too quickly to be consistent with what we know in the setting.

Which is the problem - Rey isn't congruous to the setting established. Yes, Star Wars was intended as a Flash Gordon-esque serial. It evolved past that - what you might know as Death of the Author. Lucas' vision doesn't matter if it's not accepted. And even in those Flash Gordon serials, there were laws in the settings - things that absolutely WERE true. Yes, time was nebulous, but the details of the world were adhered to. With this, details are abandoned causing plot holes, inconsistencies, and illogical events. That's a problem for contemporary audiences, it seems.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:06:19


Post by: Future War Cultist


@ New ship designs

On the whole, I like most of them. I like the T-70 x-wing and the Resurgent class Star Destroyers, as they look like a natural progression of the older models. I do however think they are a little too derivative of the older ones. I know that they wanted to clearly show who the good guys and bad guys are in their choice of vehicles but things do change.

As for those bombers...good design, wrong time. Had they been in the prequels, fighting in the clone wars, they would have been awesome. It would reinforce the idea of ‘space world war 1’ and would have shown technology progressing well. But now, coming after the y-wing and the b-wing...they look old and silly.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:14:32


Post by: Ouze


BobtheInquisitor wrote:So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?

Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.


I think both of those are very, very cool. The only ones I didn't like were the ones that skimmed the salt flats, not because they were old and rusty but because it just seems like kind of a weird idea to me. In my mind, either it flies or it doesn't, not it flies kinda with one fin touching the ground.

Pumpkin wrote:TLJ is easily my favourite Star Wars film since ESB.

Not just in terms mulling it over after the fact - weighing the pros and cons - but also in terms of sitting there in the cinema and just being blown away.

It was bold, it was unexpected, and it was spectacular. I loved it.


Ooh, that's a rough sell.

I think TLJ wasn't that great at all. It had cool parts for real - the silence when the jump to lightspeed thing happened was terrific - but a lot of the movie was kind of ho-hum I think. All the attrition with the ships running out of gas and getting picked off was sort of boring at best IMO.

I would definitely say Rogue One and TFA are demonstrably better than TLJ.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:17:10


Post by: Scrabb


I think my perception of the bombers is colored by their performance in battle. They were deployed in a tight enough formation for one to blow up so many others... and the one that hit its target also blew itself up...


I know I wouldn't want any of the things.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:17:54


Post by: Lance845


Thats a lot, and my phone receptions getting bad. Il respond to small bits now and maybe other later.

I think its fair to say that the chosen one is a bull crap prophecy. Vader didnt bring balance to anything. We only have shmees word for his virgin birth (also there is a hilarious fan theory about watto being his dad. In summary, shmee has no skills. She cant cook she doesnt clean, so what kind of slave is she? Sex slave. Look at her down cast embarassed eyes when she says anakin is a virgin birth. How does watto get around? He skywalks.), and people are born powerful in the force all the time without any lineage to support it. There is no reason rey couldnt be power naturally. Could we use more explanation? I guess. But i feel like thats just minutes of exposition we dont actually REALLY need.

Because despite lukes and hans flaws everything works out for them because of those flaws. Yeah han gets caught. To no il effect. The only movies that strip him of his mary suedom are. The new ones.

The yoda wanting leia stuff is true. Its canon. I posted links. Look it up.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:19:21


Post by: Ouze


 Scrabb wrote:
I think my perception of the bombers is colored by their performance in battle. They were deployed in a tight enough formation for one to blow up so many others... and the one that hit its target also blew itself up...


I know I wouldn't want any of the things.


I forgot about the bombers. I agree with what you said but the internal bomb design was really great aesthetically. The way they looked when they all lit up, they way they looked when they dropped - very cool.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:27:18


Post by: Mr Morden


 Ouze wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

So if something makes a lot of money on its opening weekend, it's good.


Certainly by the studio's metric. It's show business, not show fun.

But in this case I was referring to Black Panther, in response to "Disney is running the SW/MCU into the ground". It's the 3rd biggest movie domestically of all time, and did so while getting a 97% on rotten tomatoes. While TLJ didn't do as well as expectations, that probably has a lot to do with that it didn't get a full release in China, which is a huge blow in 2018. Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.


There is one on that very site you are quoting and which you ignored - only 46% of the real audiance {not paid critics?) liked it with an average ratingof 2.9 out of 5. Compare that to Black Panther with 79% of people liking it. Big difference.

I don't conside Iflm crtics in any way objective and certainly no more so than any other person, if anything they are much less so.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:32:53


Post by: ZebioLizard2


No critic wants to be the one who doesn't get to do an early bird review of a big blockbuster movie.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:35:00


Post by: Ouze


I don't know if I ignored it so much as didn't notice it. It's a fair point.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:35:15


Post by: Mr Morden


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
No critic wants to be the one who doesn't get to do an early bird review of a big blockbuster movie.


Ohh no - don;t say that about critics - they are perfect and uncorruptable guardians as well as the only true judge of a films worth.

or not.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:38:10


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Lance845 wrote:
I think its fair to say that the chosen one is a bull crap prophecy. Vader didnt bring balance to anything.
Well, except for overthrowing the dominant Dark Side, and in himself, managing to bring balance to the forces inside himself.

You can say it's bullgak all you like, but as I see it, it's more valid than starfighters being able to hyperspace ram themselves into other ships and more valid than whatever Rey's powers are.

We only have shmees word for his virgin birth (also there is a hilarious fan theory about watto being his dad. In summary, shmee has no skills. She cant cook she doesnt clean, so what kind of slave is she? Sex slave. Look at her down cast embarassed eyes when she says anakin is a virgin birth. How does watto get around? He skywalks.), and people are born powerful in the force all the time without any lineage to support it.
Sorry, but that fan theory is just that - a fan theory. Not canon, and if we're looking at skills, what skills does Ani have that Shmi doesn't also have? We don't see her doing any kind of slave stuff, but then, we don't see her doing anything that suggests the her being a sex slave either (see Leia in ROTJ). We have to accept that she is a slave, and just does odd jobs, I assume.

Also, yeah, we only have Shmi's word he is. But we also only have word that Han Solo made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. Not proof. We only have word that Kylo Ren killed Luke's students. In fact, we only have his word that he even went there.
We accept that it is, because it makes the most sense.

There is no reason rey couldnt be power naturally. Could we use more explanation? I guess. But i feel like thats just minutes of exposition we dont actually REALLY need.
On the contrary, it's exactly needed. I have no problem with it being natural power, but there's been no precedent for natural power on her scale. Luke himself says that she is apparently one of the most powerful force users he's seen in his whole life - better than Yoda, Palpatine, and presumably Vader. That's not just something natural.

I just want an explanation beyond "because the plot says we need to have a strong independant woman do it". Is that the reason they have Rey specifically? I wouldn't be surprised, but that's fine. All I want is an explanation for this, and quite a lot of other things, beyond "the plot says so and because we need to milk Star Wars".

Because despite lukes and hans flaws everything works out for them because of those flaws. Yeah han gets caught. To no il effect. The only movies that strip him of his mary suedom are. The new ones.
Han gets caught and frozen in carbonite for what - two years? If not for the actions and agency of his friends, he'd still be a wall decoration. Not his own actions, and therefore not a Mary Sue.

The yoda wanting leia stuff is true. Its canon. I posted links. Look it up.
I saw those links, and they don't hold up with what we see in ROTS. Let's think about this logically - how could Yoda have known Luke was impulsive, reckless, and the "inferior" twin when he'd never met him, barring when he was a newborn?

ROTS Yoda outright tells Kenobi to train Luke - he does nothing of the same for Leia.

It's the same kind of canon the new trilogy is - inconsistent with what we already know.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:38:15


Post by: Ouze


 Mr Morden wrote:
Ohh no - don;t say that about critics - they are perfect and uncorruptable guardians as well as the only true judge of a films worth.

or not.


Well, now you're being silly

How about if we agree that critics have a vested interest in protecting their access and having their quotes used in publicity, because that's self evident. But we also have to agree that user reviews can get bandwagonned, botted, etc for reasons other than to do with a film's merits or lacks thereof. Look at the book reviews for any political figure - an enormous amount of 1 star and 5 star reviews from people who likely haven't bought or read the book in question. Look at Ghostbusters (2016) - universally agreed to not be a good movie, but it's the most thumbed down video in the history of Youtube, a platform which hosts videos of animal abuse, nazi propaganda,. torture, and Logan Paul.


I don't know a good way to determine objectively if a movie is "good". You can't use box office alone, because then it skews to garbage like Transformers movies. You can't use RT alone because it has the issues above. You can't use award shows because they're a bunch of elitists who scratch each others backs. So how do you measure a film as being "good"? The best I know is the gauge some measure of all 3.





Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:42:11


Post by: Mr Morden


 Ouze wrote:
Well, now you're being silly

How about if we agree that critics have a vested interest in protecting their access, because that's self evident. But we also have to agree that user reviews can get bandwagonned, botted, etc for reasons other than to do with a film's merits or lacks thereof. Look at the book reviews for any political figure - an enormous amount of 1 star and 5 star reviews from people who likely haven't bought or read the book in question.



I have zero interest or respect in what film critics say. I have seen too many good film written off by so called objective and independant critics to do so.

I decide if i want to see a film based on the trailer and maybe what friends think - but we donlt always agree so thats unreliable.

Similar with books.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 21:44:12


Post by: Ouze


I don't use critics as an end-all litmus test to if I will see a movie or not but it's handy for movies I am on the fence on. If there is a movie I kinda want to see but it hits 40% or below aggregate I am definitely much less likely to.

I too would say I give more weight to the opinions of friends and family who have demonstrated a similar taste in movies.

I definitely can't rely on trailers, I don't think. I've been burned and badly, by trailers that totally misrepresent the movie, like The Fountain, and movies that straight up show things in the trailer that do not occur in the movie (Paranormal Activity series).



Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 22:09:50


Post by: Frazzled


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Pretty much anyone with kids HAS to see every Star Wars film.

This


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
One of the big key components of a mary sue is that their flaws are actually strengths and everyone loves them because they are the best.


Yes. See also: Rey.

 Lance845 wrote:
Han solo is exactly that. He gets the girl. He takes out the galaxies "most feared bounty hunter" while blind. He gets rich. He marries a princess. He wins all the things.


Wrong. He gets captured. He's abraisive. He's weakened at multiple points. His marriage falls apart.

 Lance845 wrote:
Luke blew up the death star with no force training.


Being guided by Obi-Wan. He had much more training than Rey did before she was throwing tricks around.

 Lance845 wrote:
Anakin was 6. Rey is 20ish?


Reflexes and actual force powers are not the same thing.

 Lance845 wrote:
Luke has always been gak in a fight. Hes also always just been gak. Officially, yoda did not want to train him. He wanted leia. Leia had talent. Luke was crap. Thats the real story of sw.


What parody are you watching?

 Lance845 wrote:
Rey, like leia, has talent. Luke, has moping and worrying until someone kicks him in the ass to get him to actually do anything.


This is some kind of bizarro troll-post, isn't it? You cannot genuinely think this and be able to count past ten with your shoes on.

I think you need some more experience with fiction. Good heroes do not just show up with all the power and win without any trials and tribulations, struggles, and failures.

A hero is someone who overcomes the odds, not someone who shows up with a list of abilities and wins.


You seriously need to quit insulting other posters on a thread about sci find movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
You give yourself WAY too much credit. You dont insult me. Again, you amuse me. Your ignorance and especially your self assurance in your ignorance is and endless font of joy for me.


I like how you do this while crying like a spanked child about people insulting you.

And yes, I made you outright butt-hurt. That is literally your only argument. Just as soon as any argument you have is debunked, you go back to whinging.


Reported.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 22:26:07


Post by: Yodhrin


 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are some people who were perfectly happy with part 2, and some other people who thought it was terrible.

It's not clear why, as the exact same scenes, dialogue and so on were watched by both sets of people.


It's entirely clear why. One group of people consists of fans of Star Wars who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, liked the basic formula they use, and came out of the first main-saga Disney film in the franchise having been given the perfectly reasonable expectation by that film that Disney intended to continue the main-saga films in the tradition they enjoyed(even if they had issues with the actual execution of how those expectations were created, ie it leaned too heavily on rote "look at this you know! haha! you know thing, how cool" nostalgia beats). Then went to TLJ, and got to watch a feature-length "subversive" deconstruction of the thing they liked and paid to see, and which is in the opinion of many a lot less clever than it clearly thinks it is.

The other consists of non-fans, the seven people on the planet outside of China who'd never experienced Star Wars before in any form, children so young that they consider the pinnacle of cinematic achievement the beeping sounds and bright colours of BB-8, and of Star Wars fans who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it.

The latter group got exactly what they wished for and so overlook the evident and manifold flaws in the film often to the point of becoming defensive(or resorting to the "secret misogynists" nonsense) when those flaws are pointed out. The former group had their expectations dashed in a very deliberate way and so notice every single flaw even to the point of being a bit unfair over some of the really minor ones that they'd otherwise just move past.

So, basically, Lucasfilm shat the bed twice over - first by bringing in a guy who's so nostalgic over Star Wars that he tried to turn Star Trek into it to restart the main-saga films, and also by adopting a "hands off" director-driven policy and bringing in a self-regarding "auteur" director to do the second part of the trilogy who promptly threw all the existing work out the window and did his own very deliberately marmite thing. If they intended the new trilogy to be a postmodernist deconstruction of the whole property, it should have been that from minute one, film one of the new trilogy, and if they didn't then they should have either had a competent Feige-type figure in charge with the power to wrangle the directors, or they should have taken more care over which directors they hired for each project.

For my money, TFA was too nostalgia driven and suffered from JJ's trademark total lack of regard for pacing or buildup in favour of simply instructing that a thing will happen, constructing a scene in which the thing happens, and then having the actors perform the thing happening, regardless of whether it makes much sense in context or whether the emotions it's attempting to evoke have actually been "earned" in prior scenes, but it was Star Wars to its very core. TLJ was in every regard the opposite but with the dial turned up to eleven, and personally I don't enjoy having my expectations subverted by content creators who've taken one too many arthouse indie classes at film school, I'm perfectly capable of seeking out new and varied narrative experiences on my own recognisance, and when I go to see a Star Wars movie then that's what I want & expect to see, so I found the whole thing pretty insufferable. Can it be salvaged? I don't see how. People like to bring up ESB, but apart from them both being the middle film in a trilogy they have little in common, the biggest difference being that ESB was a Star Wars movie, not a deconstruction of a Star Wars movie - it was darker than ANH in tone, certainly, but the story never tried to make you question if the Empire are actually the baddies afterall, or if the Jedi were just as bad as the Sith really in their own way, or set out to purposefully subvert audience expectations. It had a big twist, but that's not actually the same thing.

Even if the third film turns out to be spectacular and pivots back to just being a Star Wars movie again without falling entirely into the nostalgia trap that dragged down TFA, TLJ will always be the Phantom Menace of the sequels for me, the one I don't bother to watch again if I ever go back to it because it doesn't really add anything to the whole.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 22:35:00


Post by: Lance845


Its unfair to place everyone into your 2 very narrow camps.

I watched the old starwars. I enjoy them as movies. I hated the prequels, even at the time when everyone was near universally lieing to each other and themselves about just how terrible they were.

The new ones are enjoyable for me. Not any better or worse than 2/3rds of the ot. I think there is a fairly large group who shares that thought. Considering more than 7 people gave it good reviews.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 22:39:26


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Just wish they had done something a bit cooler for ships in TLJ.. If they hadn't had Kylo shot up the hanger bay early on we could've gotten at least maybe a cool dogfighting scene between Poe and Kylo in the Silencer.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 22:57:11


Post by: Lance845


Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 23:22:43


Post by: timetowaste85


I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 23:26:15


Post by: dogma


 Lance845 wrote:
I am sure TLJ ill sell tons of the new bomber ships and and tie fighters with extra rockets on them as soon as they get around to making them. There really haven't been any toys made of any of the new stuff yet. So ANOTHER Rey/Finn that looks just like the last movie? Yep. Didn't sell super well.


The Lego version of the bomber goes for ~100 USD on Amazon, and it's not even a particularly cool design; basically a fat B-Wing.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 23:30:40


Post by: Lance845


 timetowaste85 wrote:
I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.


I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.

Also this comic exists http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Infinities:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back which is non cannon but explores the idea of it.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 23:43:25


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.


I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.

Also this comic exists http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Infinities:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back which is non cannon but explores the idea of it.
Revenge of the Sith, however, shows that such a thought leap for Yoda would be illogical.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 23:45:37


Post by: Scrabb


Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.


He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.

He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....

idk.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 23:45:44


Post by: insaniak


 Lance845 wrote:
Its unfair to place everyone into your 2 very narrow camps.

I watched the old starwars. I enjoy them as movies. I hated the prequels, even at the time when everyone was near universally lieing to each other and themselves about just how terrible they were.

The new ones are enjoyable for me. Not any better or worse than 2/3rds of the ot. I think there is a fairly large group who shares that thought. Considering more than 7 people gave it good reviews.

Indeed.

I grew up with the original trilogy. I enjoyed the prequels, even with their flaws, and I've enjoyed all of Disney's offerings to date.

Yes, they're not perfect, or exactly what I expected. That shouldn't get in the way of enjoying them as what they are, which is fantasy with space ships.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/20 23:53:00


Post by: Yodhrin


 Lance845 wrote:
Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.


The fact you're reading a wee joke as some monstrous assault on your dignity rather disagrees with you eh.

 insaniak wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Its unfair to place everyone into your 2 very narrow camps.

I watched the old starwars. I enjoy them as movies. I hated the prequels, even at the time when everyone was near universally lieing to each other and themselves about just how terrible they were.

The new ones are enjoyable for me. Not any better or worse than 2/3rds of the ot. I think there is a fairly large group who shares that thought. Considering more than 7 people gave it good reviews.

Indeed.

I grew up with the original trilogy. I enjoyed the prequels, even with their flaws, and I've enjoyed all of Disney's offerings to date.

Yes, they're not perfect, or exactly what I expected. That shouldn't get in the way of enjoying them as what they are, which is fantasy with space ships.


So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 00:02:28


Post by: Lance845


Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.


I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.

Also this comic exists http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Infinities:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back which is non cannon but explores the idea of it.
Revenge of the Sith, however, shows that such a thought leap for Yoda would be illogical.


Gunna have to explain this one more. I have seen that movie once. I remember very little of it.

Scrabb wrote:Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.


He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.

He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....

idk.


Sorry you fealt ignored. I likely just missed it in my trading barbs with the dorito fellow. That was a lot of fun for me.

Lukes big strength isn't his fighting ability or his power with the force. He's not super exceptional with either. It's his conviction. He almost looses his gak and starts to go dark giving in to his anger and hate when he takes off vaders arm in RotJ. What makes Luke great is that he then goes right back, throws his lightsaber away and is willing to die right then and there instead of turning. Lukes REAL greatness as a character is his conviction.

That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?


Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.


Yodhrin wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Also, stop criticizing the people who liked it fot getting defensive if your every post about disliking the movie is going to include broad generalizations and attacks on the people who enjoyed it.


The fact you're reading a wee joke as some monstrous assault on your dignity rather disagrees with you eh.


Im not reading anything as anything. Many of the people on here who dislike the movie have a habit of slinging insults at those who enjoyed it by talking down to/about them but ALWAYS with the criticism of how those who "liked" the movie are some SJWs getting all defensive and accusing you of hating women or whatever for disliking the movie. If you don't like the movie criticize the movie. Not the people who disagree with you.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 00:35:53


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Lance845 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.


I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.

Also this comic exists http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Infinities:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back which is non cannon but explores the idea of it.
Revenge of the Sith, however, shows that such a thought leap for Yoda would be illogical.


Gunna have to explain this one more. I have seen that movie once. I remember very little of it.
Essentially, Yoda has both children under his influence, with the choice to pick and choose out of either, and sends Leia away with Bail Organa, a non-Force user and politician. He gives Luke to Kenobi with the orders to watch over him from afar.

Note that Kenobi is a force user, and Organa is not. If Yoda wanted Leia so badly, why wouldn't have have given her to Kenobi, where she will actually be trained by a Jedi?

It also ignores the fact that how did Yoda know which one he preferred if he hadn't encountered them since they were newborns.

Scrabb wrote:Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.


He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.

He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....

idk.


Sorry you fealt ignored. I likely just missed it in my trading barbs with the dorito fellow. That was a lot of fun for me.

Lukes big strength isn't his fighting ability or his power with the force. He's not super exceptional with either. It's his conviction. He almost looses his gak and starts to go dark giving in to his anger and hate when he takes off vaders arm in RotJ. What makes Luke great is that he then goes right back, throws his lightsaber away and is willing to die right then and there instead of turning. Lukes REAL greatness as a character is his conviction.
Which is why he ISN'T a Mary Sue. He is tempted, he even falls from grace, he gives in to the Dark Side (which has been his weakness throughout - his recklessness and impulsiveness) - and yet he has a moment of realisation, and that is character growth. He changes as a character, he overcomes a very real, and very strong weakness of his character. And considering that character flaw is dealt with at the climax of the story, it is narratively acceptable and not narrative-breaking.

You've literally explained how he ISN'T a Mary Sue.

That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?
He' far from flat cardboard. Cliche for the time, yes. The wide-eyed youth with shaggy hair and experiencing a lot of the world for the first time is a common trope. However, his sense of awe and wonder at nearly everything is perfect for us, the audience to imprint on him. When we first meet him, we know his goals and understand them relatably. He wants more than his life with his adoptive parents - the dream of growing up. When things happen to him, and his aunt and uncle are killed, we see that with him, and we empathise with something we see ourselves.

With Rey, she's also wide eyed and naive, but she seems to adapt to nearly every new thing instantly. Not only that, but the catalyst for her adventuring is something we don't even see - her parents. We do not get the same reaction to that due to the fact we're told it - not shown it. Showing is far more effective than telling in media.

Thing is, we can't say he's "strong with the force for no reason" because we've never seen another Force user, aside from Kenobi (who is the mentor archetype and uses it sparingly), and so didn't know even if he was strong in the force. The only people who tell him he is are Vader, and Palpatine - who are the most powerful force users we see - and by this time, we're not far off the reveal that Vader is Luke's father - and considering we've already seen Vader's force skills, it being hereditary is a strong assumption to make.

Yes, the prequels retroactively fix it. The same can't be said at the current moment for Rey. I've seen nothing so far that explains it well in the context of the established universe.

Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.
Not supposed to - potentially. They left it open, just in case he decided he wanted in, and he did. If it was a simple case of killing, they could have done any other manner of things.

Han has suffered for it - it's why Boba Fett hunted him down in the first place - because Jabba wanted his head. His smuggling made him suffer, and after that he goes all out in the Battle of Endor. Before this, he hasn't done a massive amount. He considers leaving at the start of ESB (I think), and stays because of Leia, essentially, and is then frozen. After that, he goes all out rebel leader.

The 30 years later is an issue with the new trilogy many people have. It's largely due to the nostalgia reason - people knew Han as the scoundrel smuggler - where he ends in ROTJ is as a rebel war hero. Apparently, that's not okay.
If we are to accept though that the sequels have it right, we still see him losing a helluva lot - his relationship, his child, one of his best friends, and his position in the military, and turns to smuggling because it's all he has left to do. We already see how contrived the New Republic's military (or lack thereof) is - him staying on as a general is unlikely.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 01:05:17


Post by: Lance845


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Spoiler:
 Lance845 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
I actually read the link Lance shared about Yoda’s feelings about training Leia. The story was written by some nobody. I find it laughable that some guy out of nowhere asks to write a story (probably with Disney’s permission) and decide this, and guys like Lance take it as gospel. If Lucas comes out in an interview and says “I really wanted Yoda to wish for Leia to train, but having to go with Luke and it being more of taking a chance and risk, etc etc”...I’ll accept it. But some guy coming around 40 years later and making a decision like that? Even sanctioned by The Mouse? Hell no. At this point though, Lance is trolling us. It’s the only rational possibility.


I understand you don't like it. I understand you don't accept it. It's fine. You can ignore it if you want. But It IS sanctioned by the Mouse and it IS part of the official story now. So like it or not, Yoda didn't want Luke. It's eluded to in the movies well enough. Yoda makes every excuse talking to ghost Obi about not training Luke until he resigns himself to it. And then Luke ignores him, runs off, gets his hand chopped off in a fight hes not ready for.

Also this comic exists http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Infinities:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back which is non cannon but explores the idea of it.
Revenge of the Sith, however, shows that such a thought leap for Yoda would be illogical.


Gunna have to explain this one more. I have seen that movie once. I remember very little of it.
Essentially, Yoda has both children under his influence, with the choice to pick and choose out of either, and sends Leia away with Bail Organa, a non-Force user and politician. He gives Luke to Kenobi with the orders to watch over him from afar.

Note that Kenobi is a force user, and Organa is not. If Yoda wanted Leia so badly, why wouldn't have have given her to Kenobi, where she will actually be trained by a Jedi?

It also ignores the fact that how did Yoda know which one he preferred if he hadn't encountered them since they were newborns.


So to the first part, Leia would be much safer with the Organas then the Skywalkers. Since it would be easy enough for Vader to find Skywalkers if he wanted to. And even worse Obi Wan was hiding out near them going by Old Ben Kenobi dressed in his Jedi robes.

To the second, there is this fan theory.

Chewbacca and R2D2: Secret Rebel Agents

R2 manages to not have his memory deleted (like 3PO does) at the end of Episode III and becomes the perfect poker-faced spy. When Episode IV starts, Leia doesn't have the secret plans, R2 does. She just sends along a message to Obi Wan. Things go awry when the Empire gets in the way, so R2 gets in the escape pod knowing he can get down to Tatooine and Obi Wan. Originally the plan was to pick him up on the way to Alderaan, possibly with Luke in tow, who Obi Wan has been watching over for 20 years - its in the book, folks. 3PO is the one hesitating to get into the escape pod, but R2 knows they've gotta do it to get to Obi Wan.

They land, and R2 purposefully gets captured by the Jawas and negotiates with them to take them to Obi Wan. The Jawas only agree to take them to the Skywalker farm, because there's Sandpeople near Kenobi. R2/3PO are purchased by Luke & Owen/Beru Lars, and as soon as he can R2 heads off toward Kenobi's. Upon discovering R2/3PO/Luke being attacked, Kenobi calls R2 "my little friend", which he is, they've known eachother since Episode I. He says "I don't seem to remember ever owning any droid" as a signal to R2 to shut up around Luke. Before bailing to Tatooine, but after being intercepted by the Empire, R2 dispatched a signal to his fellow super spy Chewbacca that said something along the lines of "Uhh, we might need a ride to Alderaan, can you pick us up at Mos Eisley?" Meanwhile, Chewbacca gets the message and makes a "mistake" forcing Han to dump his cargo and high-tail it to Tatooine, which gets them there on time to pickup R2/3PO/ObiWan/Luke.

Chewbacca really runs the whole smuggling thing, not Han. Han's just a pilot, and in fact the Falcon's not his ship, its really Chewies (thats why it makes the above cameo in Episode III, see the tiny ship just off the edge at the bottom?). Chewie sets up the deals and Han haggles the price, giving Chewie free reign to pick where they go, which lets him deliver Rebellion intelligence anywhere in the galaxy at ease under his cover. This is exactly what happens in Mos Eisley, Chewie and R2 and Obi Wan know what's going on, but Han, Luke and 3PO are along for the ride.

Think about that scene in Mos Eisley. Obi Wan walks right up to Chewbacca before 3PO and R2 are even thrown out of the cantina. That was fast, eh? So they all head to Alderaan, its not there, they sneak onto the Death Star, and when R2 finds out Leia is there Chewie helps convince Han to go along with Luke's rescue plan. Then as they escape, Obi Wan is forced to sacrifice himself as a distraction, leaving Chewie and R2 (and Yoda) the only characters alive that know about Luke, Leia and Vader's family tree. Chewie sees Luke and Leia feel drawn to each other, and realizes thats just wrong... just wrong, and so he plays incest-cop and shoves Han at Leia. When they get to Yavin, Chewie agrees to bail with Han because if Yavin is destroyed he'd be the only one who could try to salvage the Rebellion and find Yoda. Apparently Yoda has been communicating with Obi Wan through the ghost of Qui Gon Jin, but since Obi Wan's dead now, their only link to Yoda is Luke (who Ben can ghost-chat with). And since Bail Organa got blown up by the Death Star on Alderaan, things are looking pretty grim. R2 has the Death Star plans they need to take thing down, not Leia. Then Han changes his mind, Chewie is thrilled to go back and fight, and they save the day.

If you notice in the medal scene, Chewie is not medaled, he turned it down because he got one from Yoda like 20 years ago, but he can't really mention that, now can he? So now the leaders are all gone or out of contact (Yoda) and Leia, the daughter of Vader, is in charge.


If True, Yoda had been getting messages about the progress on both kids all along and would have been making his choice.

Spoiler:
Scrabb wrote:Yeah, Lance ignored me when I tried to engage him on one of his (many, many) points about the sequel trilogy whilst having plenty of time and energy to trade barbs with that dorito fellow.


He's arguing concurrently that Luke is both a mary sue and unwanted, uninteresting, and incapable.

He also thinks Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past even though he spends rather a lot of screen time hanging on a wall for falling on the wrong side of a gangster's good will so....

idk.


Sorry you fealt ignored. I likely just missed it in my trading barbs with the dorito fellow. That was a lot of fun for me.

Lukes big strength isn't his fighting ability or his power with the force. He's not super exceptional with either. It's his conviction. He almost looses his gak and starts to go dark giving in to his anger and hate when he takes off vaders arm in RotJ. What makes Luke great is that he then goes right back, throws his lightsaber away and is willing to die right then and there instead of turning. Lukes REAL greatness as a character is his conviction.
Which is why he ISN'T a Mary Sue. He is tempted, he even falls from grace, he gives in to the Dark Side (which has been his weakness throughout - his recklessness and impulsiveness) - and yet he has a moment of realisation, and that is character growth. He changes as a character, he overcomes a very real, and very strong weakness of his character. And considering that character flaw is dealt with at the climax of the story, it is narratively acceptable and not narrative-breaking.

You've literally explained how he ISN'T a Mary Sue.


I mostly believe that the whole Mary Sue thing just doesn't exist. I am arguing that iIF Rey is a Mary Sue the so is everyone else of any consequence in SW. You cannot give everyone else a pass for having the same things.

That being said, hes equally at fault for all the things people peg on Rey. He learns force powers as he needs them. He's a flat cardboard person in ANH and most of Empire. And until the prequels told us about the prophecy he was just some guy who was strong in the force for no reason. But hey, it's all ok back then and bad now. Why?
He' far from flat cardboard. Cliche for the time, yes. The wide-eyed youth with shaggy hair and experiencing a lot of the world for the first time is a common trope. However, his sense of awe and wonder at nearly everything is perfect for us, the audience to imprint on him. When we first meet him, we know his goals and understand them relatably. He wants more than his life with his adoptive parents - the dream of growing up. When things happen to him, and his aunt and uncle are killed, we see that with him, and we empathise with something we see ourselves.

With Rey, she's also wide eyed and naive, but she seems to adapt to nearly every new thing instantly. Not only that, but the catalyst for her adventuring is something we don't even see - her parents. We do not get the same reaction to that due to the fact we're told it - not shown it. Showing is far more effective than telling in media.

Thing is, we can't say he's "strong with the force for no reason" because we've never seen another Force user, aside from Kenobi (who is the mentor archetype and uses it sparingly), and so didn't know even if he was strong in the force. The only people who tell him he is are Vader, and Palpatine - who are the most powerful force users we see - and by this time, we're not far off the reveal that Vader is Luke's father - and considering we've already seen Vader's force skills, it being hereditary is a strong assumption to make.

Yes, the prequels retroactively fix it. The same can't be said at the current moment for Rey. I've seen nothing so far that explains it well in the context of the established universe.


Luke was raised as a farmer. Rey was raised as a scavenger. Being raised in her circumstances afords her a degree of 1) ability to fight to fend for herself that luke didn't need and 2) adaptability to make the most of the gak situation she was in every day. People who come from real nothing where their every meal is a hard won battle SHOULD be adaptable.

Vader being Lukes father was also not the original plan. You can 100% be sure that if vader was lukes father and leia his sister then luke and leia would not have kissed. ALSO there is a story called Splinter of the Minds eye which was the proposed sequal if SW bombed. It's vastly different and doesn't have Vader being lukes dad. These things were done more or less on the fly in as the movies were being made. You cannot attribute all this planning to it because it simply wasn't planned that far in advance.

The thing that establishes it is the final shot of TLJ. When a small kid uses force pull to put the broom in his hand. Anyone can be powerful in the force. It doesn't have to come from anywhere. We are following exceptional people in the movie because exceptional people are interesting.

Also Han was supposed to die at the end of Empire. Fords contract was up and it was the ending he wanted. His part in RotJ was added due to the characters popularity. And no, Han hasn't suffered for his criminal past. Because he didn't learn anything from it. 30 years later hes in another ship being the same kind of criminal.
Not supposed to - potentially. They left it open, just in case he decided he wanted in, and he did. If it was a simple case of killing, they could have done any other manner of things.

Han has suffered for it - it's why Boba Fett hunted him down in the first place - because Jabba wanted his head. His smuggling made him suffer, and after that he goes all out in the Battle of Endor. Before this, he hasn't done a massive amount. He considers leaving at the start of ESB (I think), and stays because of Leia, essentially, and is then frozen. After that, he goes all out rebel leader.

The 30 years later is an issue with the new trilogy many people have. It's largely due to the nostalgia reason - people knew Han as the scoundrel smuggler - where he ends in ROTJ is as a rebel war hero. Apparently, that's not okay.
If we are to accept though that the sequels have it right, we still see him losing a helluva lot - his relationship, his child, one of his best friends, and his position in the military, and turns to smuggling because it's all he has left to do. We already see how contrived the New Republic's military (or lack thereof) is - him staying on as a general is unlikely.


Acording to the story, Mon Mothma disbands the new republics military because it doesn't want to hold worlds under a unified military force like the empire did. She tries to return it to the way it was in the Republic before Palpatine makes his clone army. They are demilitarized. Which is why the resistance is so poorly outfitted and has so little in the way of resources and trained fighters. The first Order comes out of nowhere and takes them all by surprise.

You are worried about how all this crap is happening but missing that it's not the real story for 7 8 9. 7,8,9 is not about the resistance and the first order battleing over a galaxy being surpressed or whatever. Thats background noise. It's circumstantial. It's happening all around the main plot. The REAL plot is Rey and Kylo. It's the failings of the Jedi and the Sith and the cycle starting to continue and the people chosen to continue it being like "feth this noise".


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 01:33:19


Post by: insaniak


 Yodhrin wrote:

So in other words, you could be considered a Star Wars fan who watched the Star Wars films and, to one degree or another, liked them, but were bored of the basic formula and wanted the Disney films to signal a departure from it Or else realised that to be the case after the fact, since TLJ is, in fact, a departure from the traditional Star Wars formula.

No. I wasn't bored with the existing formula, I just don't mind that they've moved away from it. It's possible to like more than one movie.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 02:04:31


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
Spoiler:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.


Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.

Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...

The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.

You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.


This may all be true, but if Star Wars had bombed and not made a profit, no one would have made toys from it. Without the toys, then all the rest never happens as you so correctly point out. But that doesn't mean the toys were guaranteed to happen no matter what.

And if the movie had bombed, no one would have wanted to buy the toys in the first place. Heck, sales of TLJ toys has been notoriously soft, and even I have to admit the movie didn't exactly bomb. Suffer enormously from bad writing and terrible pretense on the part of the director, yes, but not truly bomb.

Consider another sci-fi movie that came out a couple years before Star Wars - Battle Beyond the Stars. It was a sci-fi retelling of the Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven. It bombed in the theaters. The characters could have been marketed as action figures, and their ships as toys as well. But because the movie bombed no one bothered doing it.


I never said the movies were not popular. I am not arguing about if the SW movies have or have not been big successes financially if not critically. What I was arguing was that this amazing run of SW being in the public conscious was not because the movies were some touch stone amazing best thing that has ever existed. It's because clever marketing and a merch line that would not quit kept it in the public conscious long after the movies had run their course. An entire generation (20 years) went by between ANH and the prequels. The movies on their own would NEVER have made that kind of impact on everyone. It's the constant merch that kept it running forever.


Once again, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm arguing your earlier assertation that the fans going to see the movie a dozen times was UNIMPORTANT to the success of Star Wars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


I was a huge Star Wars fan, and even enjoyed the Vong series that so many despise. I hated TLJ, and have become apathetic to episode 9. I wasn’t toxic to Star Wars. But this movie was crap, and ruined it. If you like it, good on you for having poor taste in a terrible movie. But when 95% of us on here say it’s terrible, and you tell us “good, piss off”, well think about it this way; if they lose 95% of ticket sales, how many more episodes do you think you’ll get? Yes, I get that Dakka is only a sampling of fans. But if you think we’re the only ones who hated a movie that crapped all over a series we all used to love, you’re pathetically wrong.


The negative always yell the loudest but they rarely make up anything close to a majority. If you think they will make episode 9 and it won't make hundreds of millions of dollars you are pathetically wrong. Nothing in 7 or 8 was nearly as bad as 1 2 or 3 and SW did just fine.


Ah... TLJ hasn't made hundreds of millions of dollars yet. It's still under two hundred million.

I don't expect IX to do any better, either. There are too many people saying 'Nope, not going to bother,' and that can't help but have a negative impact on the 'new' fans they're hoping to attract.

"Let me get this straight. I didn't like Star Wars, you liked it a LOT. You aren't going to see the new Star Wars movie? It must really suck then, if you're not going to see it. I think I'll skip it too... just like I skipped all the others."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
No. I dont believe him turning into a pile of robes by being hit with a light saber.

Luke actually joined with the force like yoda. Obi won got beat in a fight.


No, we've SEEN what happens when you hit someone with a lightsaber. They lose pieces, like Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, and the entire group that went to arrest Palpatine. Not one of the ones who died from lightsaber wounds ever manifested as a force ghost.

Obi-Wan knew darn well that he wasn't getting off the Death Star. When Obi-Wan closed his eyes and raised his lightsaber, he was surrendering his life to become one with the Force... so he could continue to guide Luke in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
Luke got shot by floating ball over the course of a week tops while hanging out on the falcon. Thats not real training.


And you'll note he did exactly two things with the force between that and his training with Yoda. Precisely timing the shot that destroyed the Death Star, and - with IMMENSE effort - retrieving his lightsaber from a few feet away.

Rey, like all force sensitives, already havd powers when they are kids. Its why luke could bullseye wamp rats in his t16. Its why anikin could fly a pod so well. Its why the jedi found children.

The big difference between luke and rey is luke lived in a society that supressed knowlege of the jedi, their powers, and their achievements and rey did not. So push come to shove luke has no idea what he would be capable of and rey has a entire 18+ years of hearing about it that she could then try to attempt.


Jedi training was common on Jakku? Where is this shown in the movies?


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 02:28:49


Post by: Lance845


Qui Gon Jinn died of light saber wounds and was the first to become a force ghost. As a force ghost he taught yoda and obi won how to do it. Nobody before qui gon, whodied of ls wounds, had ever become a blue ghost.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 02:29:20


Post by: Vulcan


 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
... Despite that it also got 1.3 billion worldwide and a 91% on rotten tomatoes. There is no objective metric that meets your assertion.


Rotten Tomatoes deleted bad reviews of Black Panther. If you think they're any sort of credible source, you're smoking crack. Much of the actual thinking public that isn't getting a paycheck to review something actually didn't like TLJ.

And while we're at it, Black Panther was overrated and people were too chicken gak to say so.


To be fair, any review of any movie that scores below one star on Rotten Tomatoes is removed from the average.

I though Black Panther was pretty good, myself. It was a welcome relief from the token comic relief black guy Finn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So what's the consensus on the ship design? Can we all agree that the non-bombing designs from TLJ are good and also Star Warsy? Did Rogue One do it better?

Personally, I think the U-Wing is the best of the DisneyWars designs followed by the TIE Silencer.


Aside from the ultra-slow bomber, they were fine. The Resistance ships were either direct copies of or linear progressions from Rebel ships. The New Order ships were all workable variations of the Great Space Triangle that is the classic Imperial design.

Ship TACTICS, on the other hand, were abominable on both sides.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 02:37:48


Post by: insaniak


 Vulcan wrote:

Ship TACTICS, on the other hand, were abominable on both sides.

They always were.

'I can't shake him!' screams the fighter pilot as he flies in a straight line at a constant speed...


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 02:52:49


Post by: Vulcan


 Lance845 wrote:
Qui Gon Jinn died of light saber wounds and was the first to become a force ghost. As a force ghost he taught yoda and obi won how to do it. Nobody before qui gon, whodied of ls wounds, had ever become a blue ghost.


I stand corrected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Ship TACTICS, on the other hand, were abominable on both sides.

They always were.

'I can't shake him!' screams the fighter pilot as he flies in a straight line at a constant speed...


I just re-watched the scene. No, he doesn't.


Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered? @ 2018/05/21 03:15:08


Post by: insaniak


 Vulcan wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Ship TACTICS, on the other hand, were abominable on both sides.

They always were.

'I can't shake him!' screams the fighter pilot as he flies in a straight line at a constant speed...


I just re-watched the scene. No, he doesn't.


https://www.google.com.au/search?q=hyperbole