There is no question that GW is doing things differently now than they used to. Whatever the reasons for it, there is no debate that GW is now more focused on games, instead of trying to be some sort of collectable company.
So, I think there might be an argument for GW to bring back the old world Warhammer; particularity as a specialist game. AoS has had enough time to get its legs, and seems to be doing quite well. So I think the threat of cannibalizing players is low.
Plus, it is a different kind of game. GW has no ranked mass battle game right now (that I am aware of). It can also try and recapture goodwill that was lost by ending it. To my eyes, it seems like they are leaving money on the table by not doing it.
I don't see a downside for this plan. The material, lore, etc, already exists. New rules would be needed, of course. Much of the AoS sculpts are usable, or they can just fire up the machines and use the older sculpts.
The old world never has been gone. It's always been around in computer games, books, rpgs and the older rules. The only difference is it's no longer getting active model and rules releases. Everyone can keep playing there if they choose too.
Phobos wrote: There is no question that GW is doing things differently now than they used to. Whatever the reasons for it, there is no debate that GW is now more focused on games, instead of trying to be some sort of collectable company.
They still push the Hobby which includes collecting miniatures - hence Open play in both 40k and AoS - play with what you got. It's the easiest way to play the game: collect the models, which come with rules, and use free rules to roll dice.
Phobos wrote: Plus, it is a different kind of game. GW has no ranked mass battle game right now (that I am aware of). It can also try and recapture goodwill that was lost by ending it. To my eyes, it seems like they are leaving money on the table by not doing it.
They were bleeding money before when they were actively supporting it.. To relaunch a mass battles game would cause an even larger amount of cash to be wasted in design, development, sculpting, release, and cause focus to be lost from their core lines.
Phobos wrote: I don't see a downside for this plan. The material, lore, etc, already exists. New rules would be needed, of course. Much of the AoS sculpts are usable,
You're right; the lore already exists, and you have two options that are both superior in every way to any edition of Warhammer ever released: Kings of War and The Ninth Age.
Phobos wrote: or they can just fire up the machines and use the older sculpts.
Much of the old style does not match the current branding. This is the opposite of what any company would want to do. It would be akin to a car company bringing back a vehicle design from fifteen years ago without changing anything. A 2002 Honda Civic does not match 2018 Honda branding nor look anything like the 2018 lineup and shows its' age compared to the 2018 Civic itself.
As I am really new to Warhammer Fantasy (I only recently picked up 6th, 7th and 8th starter sets off ebay), I can see why they killed it. Don't get me wrong, I feel terrible that I missed out on WFB's peak with 6th edition, and are having a blast exploring the whole world I missed out on. But having become more familiar with LOTR over the years, I see how much GW just completely ripped off that. I think GW needed to really put their own original ideas into their world, and while I am not a fan of Age of Sigmar nor those weird marine knights, I think they are in the proper direction.
That being said, I have grown quite fond of the old WFB sets I have bought and are excited making my armies for 6th, as well as playing different styles of the game with the same minis, but I can see how/why WFB died over time.
They should have never stopped it. If only they had showed WFB the same love and amount of efforts they did for their games these 3 past years... They could have exploited all the unknown part of the world (Cathay etc...). But no. They chosed to destroy it and to give us this...thing.
EDIT: ehhh ! I am NO spanish !!! Is it because I am currently in Spain ?
No. As a fantasy setting, the old world was probably a little more grounded and ripe for meaningful storytelling, but it was also limiting. The new world is pretty fantastic from an artistic perspective and while its definitely more gamey, it really lets them create and push themselves as a modeling company. I've long felt that limiting ourselves to the Tolkien asthetic is kind of defeating of the purpose of fantasy. I'm much happier to see them free to get as fantastic as possible.
Should they? Probably not, at least from their perspective. What kind of message does it send to bring the setting back that they blew up? Especially after trying to make Age of Sigmar successful. I have my doubts that they want to include (or even separately stock) square bases. The alternative to that is rewriting the rules to keep using round bases (since base size mattered, you need to revisit at least some things and can't just use the latest rules as is - at least a correction of points costs is required). Who's going to do that? GW proper? They're committed to Age of Sigmar. Leaves specialist games, and they already have limited budget and manpower to work with.
Even from our perspective it's not such a great idea. We know what GW considers canon. Who's excited to explore Ind when the world blows up in five minutes anyway?
No, I think they've managed to poison the well thoroughly on this one.
As Mordheim through specialist games, though? Sure. That's been a historic setting for its entire existence. The End Times and Age of Sigmar have precious little effect on that.
Phobos wrote: There is no question that GW is doing things differently now than they used to. Whatever the reasons for it, there is no debate that GW is now more focused on games, instead of trying to be some sort of collectable company.
So, I think there might be an argument for GW to bring back the old world Warhammer; particularity as a specialist game. AoS has had enough time to get its legs, and seems to be doing quite well. So I think the threat of cannibalizing players is low.
Plus, it is a different kind of game. GW has no ranked mass battle game right now (that I am aware of). It can also try and recapture goodwill that was lost by ending it. To my eyes, it seems like they are leaving money on the table by not doing it.
I don't see a downside for this plan. The material, lore, etc, already exists. New rules would be needed, of course. Much of the AoS sculpts are usable, or they can just fire up the machines and use the older sculpts.
Short answer: No.
Longer Answer:
This really isn't feasible, and there are a large number of people that like the new AoS property. It feels a lot less like a rip off of Tolkien, and more like something GW created themselves. I like that.
LunarSol wrote: No. As a fantasy setting, the old world was probably a little more grounded and ripe for meaningful storytelling, but it was also limiting. The new world is pretty fantastic from an artistic perspective and while its definitely more gamey, it really lets them create and push themselves as a modeling company. I've long felt that limiting ourselves to the Tolkien asthetic is kind of defeating of the purpose of fantasy. I'm much happier to see them free to get as fantastic as possible.
I really agree with this statement. I said in another thread that I do not like these fantasy/scifi stories limiting what models and rules for a game can be produced. I care about modeling, painting and playing. I really don't care that much about the lore. It's nifty, but it's really minor in my view and I believe it has long been used to justify certain models and lines from not being created.
I miss the lore and know a lot of other people do too. Bringing it back would not be a bad move.
A couple of other posters have commented that there would be some compatibility issues. Let's be clear: it's the background / story that's missing, not the mechanics. I recognize there's not a lot of demand for games involving large block formations with complex rules around movement.
It's just that the Old World is identifiable and does a number on someone's imagination.
The 'New World' leaves a lot of things out that become problematic when you consider them. For example, why is everyone fighting? What are the economic conditions fueling the need for territorial expansion? What are the people fighting trying to protect - is it really just a clash of good guys versus bad guys? Are there cultural differences between the inhabitants of these realms, or are they faceless, individual monocultures defined only by their fighting forces? Where does the food come from, where are the dead buried, what is the historical moment when this all occurs?
The absence of these things leaves me confused. While I see people enjoying AoS and think it would be a fun game to play, the lack of a compelling story stops me from wanting to buy in. I know that sounds petty, but it's not just about rolling dice and painting models. I could that for less money with other gaming systems and be just as happy.
That's the only thing I would want to see of the Old World.
greatly enjoyed mordheim
old fantasy was very low fantasy. aos is high fantasy. it gives gw places to go without it being incredibly sameee and grounded. this could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how they handle it but so far i like it.
would of been cool if there was a realm of time where mordheim exists in a frozen or looping state.
I would like it if they did. I do not think it will happen due to retail space and even if they just did mail order, supporting a model line as large as WFB has would be expensive.
A few years back, when AOS came out, I sent GW a lengthy email that said instead of blowing up the old world, they should reboot it.
My plan was:
Warhammer: Time of Legends.
Set around 10 years before Sigmar's birth, it was a small scale skirmish game.
The design ethos was Conan style barbarian tribes, even more savage and feral looking Orcs, Chaos Barbarians, Dwarves making first contact with humans, lone High Elves staying behind guarding sacred sites, early Chaos Dwarves, Vampires migrating north, and hit and run attacks from unknown Elves who liked the colour purple.
The time line would obviously follow what we knew and loved, and the surprise package was the last of the old one's. A fairly weak and inconsequential member of that race, but still hugely powerful to the new warhammer races.
The first major story and campaign would involve grabbing some technology or magic from him or something. He'd be like the dead navigator in the Alien films.
GW would have had their new game and awesome new models, the Old World we all know and love would still be here, fans wouldn't have been alienated, and in my biased view,
I would love to have seen early savage Choas Barbarians that plagued Sigmar's tribe until Sigmar sorted them.
I would love to read more BL novels set in the Old World. I love the lore. I loved the slowly unfolding mysteries that are now all gone forever. If GW were to create a parallel novelverse where the end times were prevented or postponed, I would read the crap out of that.
As for games themselves, I doubt anything more complicated than a boardgame or possibly Mordheim could ever work in that setting again. The Old World had a flavor that isn't found in AOS (which has its own), and if they can capture that in a board game, I'd be very happy.
Yes, the Old World and AOS feel like different sub genres to me. Old World felt much less high fantasy than AOS. I mean, in Old World the best proof people had that Sigmar was real was a priest performing a feat that seemed crazy. AOS you have a full pantheon with normal folks living in the realms of the gods.
It's the difference in something being set in a Grimm's Fairytale or Greek myth.
That's the only thing I would want to see of the Old World.
greatly enjoyed mordheim
old fantasy was very low fantasy. aos is high fantasy. it gives gw places to go without it being incredibly sameee and grounded. this could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how they handle it but so far i like it.
would of been cool if there was a realm of time where mordheim exists in a frozen or looping state.
I like the idea of a time-locked island where the great destruction was never able to destroy the warpstone ridden land of Mordheim.
I would also like to see some addition of new, AoS inspired, factions to help breath new life into the game.
They were bleeding money before when they were actively supporting it.. To relaunch a mass battles game would cause an even larger amount of cash to be wasted in design, development, sculpting, release, and cause focus to be lost from their core lines.
You have any evidence that top3 seliing miniature game was losing money? Especially when it doesn't account for all gw's expenses.
When aos design was started it was still top3 miniature game. No wonder sales then fell with not much releases when most of model sales comes in first few months.
Probiem was they didn#t sell space marine levels and kirby thinks anything that doesn't sell that much sells badly
WHFB didn't move in our GW at all for years. We had new players but no one was buying new models. They'd just get them 2nd hand.
AOS moves in our GW.
As much as I love ranks and flanks, WHFB had its time. And its done.
What I'd like to see is some rules that support ranks and flanks as an option and there is always the ability to open a realmgate to a time that once was and play your games in the old world if you wish. I don't think GW needs to handhold that. Nothings stopping you from doing it right now.
From a financial perspective, yes they should at some point. If Bloodbowl and Necromunda have been very successful then I really think something in the Old World would sell. However, whether it would sell better than the latest specialist game or AoS release, perhaps not yet at this point. Returning to the old world with new models after a decade might make more of splash than returning now.
Personally, the major draw for the old world is its link to history. I can relate much more to the old world than many fantasy settings because I already have a good idea about daily life, politics, warfare, etc of the renaissance and medieval period. It gives the whole thing much more flavour for me than almost all fantasy out there. I mean, even Lizardmen had an aztec theme whilst I always saw High Elves as being a bit Roman. I do not get that from AoS so have relatively little interest. The moment they start doing, for example, an ancient Greek themed faction then my interest might go up somewhat.
I still think the problem is that "realms" are inherently boring as a concept compared to actual geography, and have kneecapped a lot of the narrative potential of the AOS setting compared to the old world.
A lot of what GW wanted to add really could have been added with a bit of a time skip and some creative thinking, without making everything all mushy to the extent that most of the fighting doesn't really make any sense any more.
I would very much be in favour of any elegant way for GW to extricate AOS from realms as a concept and go back to a single globe. That would bring back enough of what people loved about the Old World to fix many of the problems I think.
I've seen movement bases on Epic that have circle placeholders and I think they might even be designed for large AOS games, or maybe Hordes or that Warjack game. Not sure if any of them are necessary, but I guess you could make a movement tray of the AOS minis and do a rank and file game with them...
Never playing AOS myself I am not sure if that would be a welcoming thing or not.
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The Phazer wrote: I still think the problem is that "realms" are inherently boring as a concept compared to actual geography, and have kneecapped a lot of the narrative potential of the AOS setting compared to the old world.
I'll agree with this. AOS just seems to abstract for me. I do like the settings of WFB towns and all, with Skaven lurking in the sewers and goblins in the forests.
I would love to see Mordheim return, but not so much WHF battles. The mordheim ruleset does need to be modernized and revised a bit though. It plays a bit old school, which some people like but i'm not as big a fan.
Third party is the only way to go, I'm afraid. From a creative perspective, it's more limited than the Mortal Realms, and in terms of marketing, I think it would look pretty bad for them to take a step back and admit that there's enough of a market for a line that they killed to still be viable enough to return to.
Even Mordheim seems unlikely. Shadespire is their small-scale fantasy combat game now, and can easily synergize with the high fantasy factions of AoS that just couldn't exist in an Old World low fantasy setting.
Easy E wrote: Forgeworld should do it like the Horus Heresy, Blood Bowl, etc.
That might not be a bad idea.
My fear is that having two fantasy games would lead to both being mediocre. AoS has a chance to keep growing into its own thing, and as others have said WFB had it's day.
Yes, definitely yes! Sigmar so far has been complete garbage to me. Both fluff and rules wise.
And I really tried. I tried reading it when it was just released, but I just could not stand the idiocy and blandness of it.
I later tried when they launched this whole Malign Portents thing. But then again, it was so cringy I closed the book after several pages. I just can not plaay/read fluff that has "aelves", "duardin", "fyreslyers" with a straight, non cringe face.
LunarSol wrote: No. As a fantasy setting, the old world was probably a little more grounded and ripe for meaningful storytelling, but it was also limiting. The new world is pretty fantastic from an artistic perspective and while its definitely more gamey, it really lets them create and push themselves as a modeling company. I've long felt that limiting ourselves to the Tolkien asthetic is kind of defeating of the purpose of fantasy. I'm much happier to see them free to get as fantastic as possible.
Leaving aside whether or not that argument holds any merit(it doesn't, IMO) - the only people who decided doing one had to mean getting rid of the other was GW. GW can decide to do both again just as easily.
Destroying the WHF setting was an act of vandalism, pure and simple. Whether because they didn't believe AoS in its initial under-developed form could stand up next to WHF, or some bean-counter insisted they "wrap up" the old IP completely to drive people across to the new one, or if the guys running the studio are just genuinely so oblivious in their little bubble that they couldn't fathom that just because they were no longer capable of appreciating the setting didn't mean everyone else was suffering the same deficiency doesn't matter, it was unnecessary and hugely disrespectful not just to the fanbase but also all the people who contributed to that setting over the years.
If they absolutely, positively, just had to move on to something else for business reasons or because they wanted "to get as fantastic as possible" that would be one thing, but they didn't just sell the house and move, they burned it down. They could build a new one just as easily, AoS is so far removed from WHF that disconnecting them entirely would barely impact the former at all, and even if they insisted on maintaining the pointless "no this is the future of WHF super-serial" position when it comes to AoS, there's no reason it has to be tied to the End Times as they were sharted out a few years ago - WHF was always a "minutes to midnight" world, so there's no reason you have to specifically detail exactly what happens when the clock actually chimes.
So yes, damn right they should bring back the WHF setting, it's the least they can do after pissing the End Times on us and telling us it was rain, and those bloody insulting joke rules they put out for WHF armies when AoS launched.
I think some of you guys misunderstand me. I don't mean to can AoS, or to even set up WHFB redux as a flagship game.
Yes KoW exists. I have it. Yes, 9th Age exists. But neither is of benefit to GW. One is a competitor, and the other is proof positive that people so like your game, they are willing to continue it on without your help. I mean, can you think of a better endorsement than that?
And bases as an issue? Really? Create trays for round bases and adjust unit counts / measurements accordingly. Problem solved. (We solved the problem, everything is awesome! Problem solved!)
Who will write the rules? Well, 9th age proves that the community will write the rules for you for free. They could go with a kind of cooperative feedback design that was used to create Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition. The market has shifted away from purchasing rules anyways. Create an online living rule-book, and make bank selling novels, minis, lorebooks, etc.
And as far as the minis go, unless they destroyed the molds, they can do a run of the old minis. That they don't match the current AoS aesthetic is a feature, not a bug. People like retro old stuff they didn't get to experience the first time.
Keeping WH shuttered up is leaving money on the table IMO.
I am very much enjoying aos but I do think they should bring back the old world at some point, after all they are already doing old world adjacent stuff with bloodbowl.
I don't think that they should just bring back the old game though.
For me there are three possibilities
1- mordheim
2- warmaster
Or
3- a game set during the war of the beard as a kind of fantasy version of the Horus Heresy.
I do think they will wait though. Every new battletome gets a little dribble of people to convert over and start playing Aos. I have seen a lot if people in Facebook saying that the upcoming nighthaunt release will make them start playing aos. The upcoming moonclan, Slaanesh and light elves releases will get a few more warhammer players over.
Meanwhile the specialist studio has got its hands full with Necromunda, bloodbowl and Titanicus.
2019 will see BFG arrive so the earliest we could expect something is 2020.
A Mordheim release in late 2020 would be ideal. Bloodbowl will have 18 plastic teams by then! That game could take a back seat and do conversion packs to make mordheim gangs into more teams, Mordheim could then take centre stage.
I think this release powered by nostalgia could be huge for GW.
They were bleeding money before when they were actively supporting it.. To relaunch a mass battles game would cause an even larger amount of cash to be wasted in design, development, sculpting, release, and cause focus to be lost from their core lines.
You have any evidence that top3 seliing miniature game was losing money? Especially when it doesn't account for all gw's expenses.
When aos design was started it was still top3 miniature game. No wonder sales then fell with not much releases when most of model sales comes in first few months.
Probiem was they didn#t sell space marine levels and kirby thinks anything that doesn't sell that much sells badly
The funniest thing is that AOS has not cracked the last ICv2 ranking top 5 once again, while WHFB was pretty much always there bar at the very end. TherE's not a lot to suggest that AOS is selling better than WHFB was.
As for the question, while I think that killing off the OW was a terrible mistake, and I'll always prefer it to these globe things setting, I'm not sure that bringing it back is the way to go. GW has a lot of work to with with the AOS setting.
Icv2 has always been an extremely poor metric for judging success. It does not include GW stores or online sales which we know from GW results account for almost two thirds of their sales. It doesn't give numbers. 4 of the top 5 games didn't exist during fantasy's best periods. It also only covers north America where Sci fi is king.
The only data we have is that GW has been doing extremely well recently.
Also a public company like GW does not double down on a failing product line. The aos playerbase is clearly still growing.
You only have to look at the increasing number of posts on this forum about starting aos in the last six months.
This is why they will not bring back the old world in near future. It would stall some of the growth that Aos is showing.
Chikout wrote: Icv2 has always been an extremely poor metric for judging success. It does not include GW stores or online sales which we know from GW results account for almost two thirds of their sales. It doesn't give numbers. 4 of the top 5 games didn't exist during fantasy's best periods. It also only covers north America where Sci fi is king.
The only data we have is that GW has been doing extremely well recently. Also a public company like GW does not double down on a failing product line. The aos playerbase is clearly still growing. You only have to look at the increasing number of posts on this forum about starting aos in the last six months. This is why they will not bring back the old world in near future. It would stall some of the growth that Aos is showing.
That is simply not true. A common mistake that is seen in every type of company is what is called the escalation of commitment. There is numerous management studies/articles on the subject. And while it is true that ICv2 is far from a perfect metric to judge the popularity of a game, it is still the best one by far (a lot more reliable than the number of posts about starting the game).
I agree with you on why GW shouldn't bring back the OW (even if personally, I would be happy if they did). AOS would suffer a lot if it was reintroduced, and there probably would be a lot of cannibalisation between the 2 games
The biggest loss of the Old World (to me!) is the loss of the world itself, the fluff and cool factions. At first glance it was "just" medieval knights and landsknechts with puffy sleeves against demons and undead and elves. But as simple as that it, it really worked. And had an abundance of charm.
Nothing about AoS is appealing to me, the new factions suck, stormcasts marines and fish elves are all silly.
So basically GW lost a customer in me. And if I were them I would go back to include the old world in a game again. I know the era of square bases and huge regiments is gone, but I would go with round bases on movement trays so diehards could use square still. And do regimented combat with movement trays and not just single models. This allow for smaller size units of 4-16 models opposed to the up to 100 in the old game.
GW is missing out. "Total War: Warhammer" is a huge success but the miniature game and its lore is gone. And has only been replaced by the competition.
GW should really use their miniatures line to accomodate those that love the old world and old fantasy.
I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.
RiTides wrote: I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.
It's called the World That Was, so yeah...it's legend/myth.
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.
That would earn them more of my money again if new releases are incoming.
The Old World is still around in an important sense: none of the current competitors after Warhammer fantasy has attained the mass of brilliant and wacky quality background for a fantasy smörgåsbord that captured our imagination and ran away with it, as WHFB did. Although we're all more likely to give alternative settings a chance the more time goes by in this era where Warhammer no longer is the monolithic dominant it once was (and is only semi-officially supported via PC games and so on), most of us silll play various games with models from various producers, with the Old World firmly in our heads. The legacy of Warhammer Fantasy still runs strong and fresh, but it will wane apart from in areas given new life, such as Warhammer Total War.
AoS seems to do decently and 40k remains GW's big cash cow. Resurrecting the Old World properly isn't necessary for Games Workshop, but it might earn them new sales from some former customers, and not least mark territory to pre-empt rivals in the classic fantasy massed miniature wargame niche they up until recently dominated. But the djinn is already out of the bottle, there.
How many people bought Total War: Warhammer, I'm sure it was several million? Probably a lot more than the number of people who even know what AoS is.
It's a massive franchise - as long as Sega keep releasing those games the Old World will live on.
It's a shame that GW didn't have the confidence in AoS to keep even a classic version of WHFB running alongside the new game. I know that really, really upset a lot of people who were heavily invested in the game and attending events to do with it. That was a really callous move, so it would be nice if it returned in some form or another, even for the sake of customer goodwill.
I was about a quarter way typing out a response to that, but then I realised I've had the exact same argument at least two dozen times with either trolls or people who genuinely can't understand it. And then I lost the energy to be bothered. Perhaps Kan or someone can be bothered to give a full answer.
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pm713 wrote: Yes. It would be nice for them to have the guts to stand up and admit to making a mistake and it would probably do more good than anything.
Man, I wish I could be making the sort of money they are by making such a mistake
Easy E wrote: Forgeworld should do it like the Horus Heresy, Blood Bowl, etc.
That might not be a bad idea.
My fear is that having two fantasy games would lead to both being mediocre. AoS has a chance to keep growing into its own thing, and as others have said WFB had it's day.
It would actually give thema chanc eto scale it back abit and carve out some of the bloat and focus on the core of the game.
It'd be nice to see it return in some fashion. The made to order legends line is a nice acknowledgement.
Kanluwen wrote: Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.
Cowtowing to whiners? I take umbrage with this. I'd call it meeting your customer demands. If there's a demand for WHFB product, square bases and all, why shouldn't GW meet it?
RiTides wrote: I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.
It's called the World That Was, so yeah...it's legend/myth.
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. .
Oh, like plastic sisters and Squats? Or, perhaps, giving guardsmen sergeants lasguns?
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?
A company should try to attract customers. If bringing back the old world in same way and bringing about close order combat will get those customers, then logically they should do it.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?
Potential customers for arguments sake. Point still stands. If there's a demand, which they'll get a hint of via e-mails, the recent customer survey, etc, shouldn't they try to meet it?
RiTides wrote: I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.
It's called the World That Was, so yeah...it's legend/myth.
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. .
Oh, like plastic sisters and Squats?
Or, perhaps, giving guardsmen sergeants lasguns?
So a faction, a dead army that's older than most posters, and a kit option that is present in the box but got yanked several editions ago for stupid reasons is your rebuttal?
Yeah. I'm big on whining about giving Guard Sergeants Lasguns. It's a stupid design flaw that was based upon some nonsense relating to the argument that "Not every Guard army could reasonably do it" because of the old metal models(read: old old stock that could be proxied easily thanks to there being generic Lasgun models. ) that negatively impacts the army in my opinion.
That's not really the same thing as just retconning your entire new system/setting because people can't be bothered to read the fluff and realize that effectively you can have the same damn army and background as you had before, just in a new setting.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?
A company should try to attract customers. If bringing back the old world in same way and bringing about close order combat will get those customers, then logically they should do it.
A company should try to attract customers, but the 'customers' you're arguing about wouldn't be buying anything new anyways.
Yeah. I'm big on whining about giving Guard Sergeants Lasguns. It's a stupid design flaw that was based upon some nonsense relating to the argument that "Not every Guard army could reasonably do it" because of the old metal models(read: old old stock that could be proxied easily thanks to there being generic Lasgun models. ) that negatively impacts the army in my opinion.
That's not really the same thing as just retconning your entire new system/setting because people can't be bothered to read the fluff and realize that effectively you can have the same damn army and background as you had before, just in a new setting.
I didn't say anything about retconning. I don't want AOS gone. I just want the Old World back..
And its not the same background. Lizardmen aren't lizardmen anymore. They don't get birthed in spawning pools anymore, do they? They are more like memories now. Which is fine. Its an interesting concept, just not the one I bought into.
Please explain where the Empire and Bretonnians are. Because if its the same army with the same background, then surely they would be available?
Also, how is it that whining about the removal of a kit option is acceptable but not whining about a game system that one invested time and money into?
People whined about plastic sisters, and they got them
People whined about squats, and they got one.
How is "kowtowing to those whiners", in your words, ok, but not to demands for the Old World?
Logically, you should against plastic sisters and that squat character as well, as that was due to "kowtowing to whiners"
As to your point about customers - how do you know that they won't, with certainty, buy anything new?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?
I bought every single WHFB novel printed up until the end times. (Well, except Deathmaster Snitch because I never saw it in the store and the price was bananas on Amazon.). I was prepared to buy their adventure game book only to find out they had stopped selling it POD. I am a WHF customer. If I am not buying anything now, it's because they aren't selling what I want to buy any more.
It would actually give them a chance to scale it back abit and carve out some of the bloat and focus on the core of the game.
What do you think is too "bloated" about AoS that wouldn't be for a WFB return?
I am sure everyone would have different ideas about it. However, for a start I would really focus in on the Old World vs. the Non-Old World. I mean, Forgeworld can only do so many models, so they would probably need to start a bit smaller and then expand outward once some core forces were defined. To me, the Core foes in Warhammer are Empire vs. Chaos Wastes and would have to be first in my mind. If those go okay, you could then expand outward.
I'd love to see it in an appropriate scale, like the battle of the five armies box (wish I got that before they killed specialist games). Keep AoS for skirmish stuff but let me field a proper goblin horde.
I'll probably do something 3rd party with 10mm when the kids get into gaming.
Chikout wrote: Icv2 has always been an extremely poor metric for judging success. It does not include GW stores or online sales which we know from GW results account for almost two thirds of their sales. It doesn't give numbers. 4 of the top 5 games didn't exist during fantasy's best periods. It also only covers north America where Sci fi is king.
The only data we have is that GW has been doing extremely well recently.
Also a public company like GW does not double down on a failing product line. The aos playerbase is clearly still growing.
You only have to look at the increasing number of posts on this forum about starting aos in the last six months.
This is why they will not bring back the old world in near future. It would stall some of the growth that Aos is showing.
Sure, it doesn't show the full picture because it doesn't include all avenues. But for those that were recorded, the old world was usually top 3 and the new world doesn't make the top 5. So regardless of how it sells in the gw network it's not sell it as well in the independents. That's not a good sign for a reboot
It would actually give them a chance to scale it back abit and carve out some of the bloat and focus on the core of the game.
What do you think is too "bloated" about AoS that wouldn't be for a WFB return?
I am sure everyone would have different ideas about it. However, for a start I would really focus in on the Old World vs. the Non-Old World. I mean, Forgeworld can only do so many models, so they would probably need to start a bit smaller and then expand outward once some core forces were defined. To me, the Core foes in Warhammer are Empire vs. Chaos Wastes and would have to be first in my mind. If those go okay, you could then expand outward.
And why do we need a separate game for that?
Slaves to Darkness exist still, as do the Free Peoples.
Chikout wrote: Icv2 has always been an extremely poor metric for judging success. It does not include GW stores or online sales which we know from GW results account for almost two thirds of their sales. It doesn't give numbers. 4 of the top 5 games didn't exist during fantasy's best periods. It also only covers north America where Sci fi is king.
The only data we have is that GW has been doing extremely well recently.
Also a public company like GW does not double down on a failing product line. The aos playerbase is clearly still growing.
You only have to look at the increasing number of posts on this forum about starting aos in the last six months.
This is why they will not bring back the old world in near future. It would stall some of the growth that Aos is showing.
Sure, it doesn't show the full picture because it doesn't include all avenues. But for those that were recorded, the old world was usually top 3 and the new world doesn't make the top 5. So regardless of how it sells in the gw network it's not sell it as well in the independents. That's not a good sign for a reboot
Most of the time I'm seeing people order online rather then through the stores.
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.
Kanny, kan kan kan. You wonder why people are so hostile to AoS players when you spout gak like that?
Live and let live. I have no quarrel with AoS players so long as they don't go around calling people "whiners" and telling people to "get over it". You're trying to nurture a new system here by actively antagonizing the players of the previous one? How exactly is this a good strategy?
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.
Kanny, kan kan kan. You wonder why people are so hostile to AoS players when you spout gak like that?
Live and let live. I have no quarrel with AoS players so long as they don't go around calling people "whiners" and telling people to "get over it". You're trying to nurture a new system here by actively antagonizing the players of the previous one? How exactly is this a good strategy?
You should've seen the response of WHFB players early on to people who liked AoS that still continues to this day. It's not a new system at this point, it's one that's been established for a while now that a certain crowd still denies.
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.
Kanny, kan kan kan. You wonder why people are so hostile to AoS players when you spout gak like that?
Live and let live. I have no quarrel with AoS players so long as they don't go around calling people "whiners" and telling people to "get over it". You're trying to nurture a new system here by actively antagonizing the players of the previous one? How exactly is this a good strategy?
You should've seen the response of WHFB players early on to people who liked AoS that still continues to this day. It's not a new system at this point, it's one that's been established for a while now that a certain crowd still denies.
It is though in the grand scheme of things.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
GW committed what is nothing short of cultural vandalism and these things take time to heal. Some people will never forgive them, some people might. Telling people to just "get over it" is just fanning flames. I don't care dip into AoS threads and tell them their game is wrong, so the same courtesy should be shown by the other side.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
Wants a "more amicable environment" and accuses people of "dancing over the corpse" of a game system.
Posts this:
GW committed what is nothing short of cultural vandalism and these things take time to heal. Some people will never forgive them, some people might. Telling people to just "get over it" is just fanning flames. I don't care dip into AoS threads and tell them their game is wrong, so the same courtesy should be shown by the other side.
YOU might not do that. But you're not the only person in the world and quite frankly, you should just "get over it". WHFB is gone, AoS is here. Move on or move out.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
Wants a "more amicable environment" and accuses people of "dancing over the corpse" of a game system.
Posts this:
GW committed what is nothing short of cultural vandalism and these things take time to heal. Some people will never forgive them, some people might. Telling people to just "get over it" is just fanning flames. I don't care dip into AoS threads and tell them their game is wrong, so the same courtesy should be shown by the other side.
YOU might not do that. But you're not the only person in the world and quite frankly, you should just "get over it". WHFB is gone, AoS is here. Move on or move out.
That's literally what you're doing mate. Perhaps if you didn't do it maybe the former could exist?
So, what exactly does telling someone to (let me spell this out for you) MOVE OUT OF A THREAD SPECIFICALLY DISCUSSING WHETHER GW SHOULD BRING THE OLD WORLD BACK achieve exactly? Take your circlejerk elsewhere, there are people who want it back. I suggest you get over yourself as there are people with different opinions to yourself in this thread and are welcome to voice them. No-one died and made you judge jury and executioner of matters pertaining to what we can talk about ITT.
WHFB died. I'll never forgive GW for what they did. I will not get over it. Even if I did, I still would not just to spite you.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
Wants a "more amicable environment" and accuses people of "dancing over the corpse" of a game system.
Posts this:
GW committed what is nothing short of cultural vandalism and these things take time to heal. Some people will never forgive them, some people might. Telling people to just "get over it" is just fanning flames. I don't care dip into AoS threads and tell them their game is wrong, so the same courtesy should be shown by the other side.
YOU might not do that. But you're not the only person in the world and quite frankly, you should just "get over it". WHFB is gone, AoS is here. Move on or move out.
Sergeants with lasguns are gone, the new loadout is here. Move on or move out. See, I can be a jerk too.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
You know, it doesn't really help your case about saying others should let an enviroment grow into a more amicable form when you claim that they are dancing on someone's corpse.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
If hipocrisy was a source of energy I think this line would solve the problems that bitcoin is generating.
Go on, I'll bite. How exactly am I a hypocrite? I'll wait.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
If hipocrisy was a source of energy I think this line would solve the problems that bitcoin is generating.
Go on, I'll bite. How exactly am I a hypocrite? I'll wait.
Trying to be a peacemaker, but using obvious charged language in a provocative manner while attempting to make the other side seem rude for responding to said charged language.
Perhaps if you stopped dancing over the corpse of WHFB and let the game stand on its own merits then maybe it could grow in a more amicable environment?
If hipocrisy was a source of energy I think this line would solve the problems that bitcoin is generating.
Go on, I'll bite. How exactly am I a hypocrite? I'll wait.
Trying to be a peacemaker, but using obvious charged language in a provocative manner while attempting to make the other side seem rude for responding to said charged language.
Look, maybe you do have WHFB players talking gak in the AoS forum, but seeing as my last post in there was in December of 2015 I really would not know. Outside of there all I see is AoS players gloating over the corpse of a game that died so theirs could live.
It would actually give them a chance to scale it back abit and carve out some of the bloat and focus on the core of the game.
What do you think is too "bloated" about AoS that wouldn't be for a WFB return?
I am sure everyone would have different ideas about it. However, for a start I would really focus in on the Old World vs. the Non-Old World. I mean, Forgeworld can only do so many models, so they would probably need to start a bit smaller and then expand outward once some core forces were defined. To me, the Core foes in Warhammer are Empire vs. Chaos Wastes and would have to be first in my mind. If those go okay, you could then expand outward.
And why do we need a separate game for that?
Slaves to Darkness exist still, as do the Free Peoples.
For the same reason people don't use one set of historical minis to play every historical setting? Because miniatures represent something more than wound counters to some people? There is an entirely different flavor to AOS, to the point where High Elves don't feel like High Elves the moment you say they come from (some realm) instead of Ulthuan.
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.
Kanny, kan kan kan. You wonder why people are so hostile to AoS players when you spout gak like that?
Live and let live. I have no quarrel with AoS players so long as they don't go around calling people "whiners" and telling people to "get over it". You're trying to nurture a new system here by actively antagonizing the players of the previous one? How exactly is this a good strategy?
exactly. I'm honestly baffled that the mods doesnt' do anything about those that are always calling other whiners simply cause they don't like the same thing as they do
Phobos wrote: There is no question that GW is doing things differently now than they used to. Whatever the reasons for it, there is no debate that GW is now more focused on games, instead of trying to be some sort of collectable company.
So, I think there might be an argument for GW to bring back the old world Warhammer; particularity as a specialist game. AoS has had enough time to get its legs, and seems to be doing quite well. So I think the threat of cannibalizing players is low.
Plus, it is a different kind of game. GW has no ranked mass battle game right now (that I am aware of). It can also try and recapture goodwill that was lost by ending it. To my eyes, it seems like they are leaving money on the table by not doing it.
I don't see a downside for this plan. The material, lore, etc, already exists. New rules would be needed, of course. Much of the AoS sculpts are usable, or they can just fire up the machines and use the older sculpts.
Just a reprint is fine. The rules set was spot on with what it was. Adding in AOS is just going to muck it up. Of course, seeing as I have the old rules set- Leave well enough alone. Still have my armies, still have the rules sets, and plenty of templates and dice to go a long way.
Although it had it's flaws, I'm still fond of the Old world. But I have already move on to Kings of War and I have hard time imaging GW could put out anything that would make me go back to WHFB.
Regarding some earlier posts in this thread, how is the Old world a Tolkien rip-off or even Tolkienesque?
I'm still of the opinion GW should just make a 9th edition, but just the rules/army books. All in one giant Tome with lore, End Times, Siege all that jazz. Charge an arm and a leg for it and be done.
We don't really need GW to make minis for it if they aren't interested in it anymore. Just a big fancy rulebook for all us vets, why not?
Then again all the saltyness I have over GW ending Warhammer is now in the past. There are just so many damn games out there now it's hard to even care anymore.
Well, this is interesting. Whilst researching for AT, I stumbled upon this post from Penddraig of heresy30k:
The re-releases of Rogue Trader and Slaves to Darkness have completely shocked GW by how popular they have been amongst the community. There are plans for future books to be re-released but no determined timeline on when they will be available. Discussions do include the Ork books, ``ere we go` and `Freebooterz` as well as `Lost and the Damned`. There will probably be some World That Was Warhammer books as well.
zedmeister wrote: Well, this is interesting. Whilst researching for AT, I stumbled upon this post from Penddraig of heresy30k:
The re-releases of Rogue Trader and Slaves to Darkness have completely shocked GW by how popular they have been amongst the community. There are plans for future books to be re-released but no determined timeline on when they will be available. Discussions do include the Ork books, ``ere we go` and `Freebooterz` as well as `Lost and the Damned`. There will probably be some World That Was Warhammer books as well.
Warhammer Fantasy: The World that Was...?
Going by the fact they are talking about re-releasing stuff? He seems to be referring to stuff like the re-release of vampire wars or the war of vengeance, rather than new cloth stuff.
I think there will be an inevitability that WFB will be released at some point but more from a GW perspective. Their IP on it will eventually lapse and put it into the public domain. The only real way to stop that happening is rerelease it. It might be in 10 years though.
Also we can't expect that the current favouring of skirmish level games will continue. You can expect to see a cycle as the market becomes overly saturated and then companies generally start to develop new things as interest in the old games wanes. In the meantime we always have Total War.
Whirlwind wrote: I think there will be an inevitability that WFB will be released at some point but more from a GW perspective. Their IP on it will eventually lapse and put it into the public domain. The only real way to stop that happening is rerelease it. It might be in 10 years though.
Also we can't expect that the current favouring of skirmish level games will continue. You can expect to see a cycle as the market becomes overly saturated and then companies generally start to develop new things as interest in the old games wanes. In the meantime we always have Total War.
This is what I imagine happening. An anniversary edition of the WFB rule set with some polishing of the rules done on their own time.
"Legends tell of a time when heroes were smaller than life. They strode the land like ungiants, and carried upon their backs a reasonable amount of provisions for a surprisingly short period of time. Their deeds echoed across the land but only inside valleys or empty buildings."
RiTides wrote: I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth"
Would be pretty weird as the WFB was WAY more grounded than the AOS fluff. You had normal people going to other places using boats and horses lol.
There's a whole thing in the Idoneth Deepkin book talking about how the Idoneth were first just raiding/sinking ships before they started going after colonies and settlements.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: "Legends tell of a time when heroes were smaller than life. They strode the land like ungiants, and carried upon their backs a reasonable amount of provisions for a surprisingly short period of time. Their deeds echoed across the land but only inside valleys or empty buildings."
You jest, but to me there's something about an unremarkable everyman going forth and conquering whilst beset by horrors. Probably why I always enjoy the Imperial Guard and The Empire so much. Individually, they haven't a hope of surviving but they still endure
RiTides wrote: I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth"
Would be pretty weird as the WFB was WAY more grounded than the AOS fluff. You had normal people going to other places using boats and horses lol.
There's a whole thing in the Idoneth Deepkin book talking about how the Idoneth were first just raiding/sinking ships before they started going after colonies and settlements.
Do you have to be on all the time? The man was making a joke.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: "Legends tell of a time when heroes were smaller than life. They strode the land like ungiants, and carried upon their backs a reasonable amount of provisions for a surprisingly short period of time. Their deeds echoed across the land but only inside valleys or empty buildings."
You jest, but to me there's something about an unremarkable everyman going forth and conquering whilst beset by horrors. Probably why I always enjoy the Imperial Guard and The Empire so much. Individually, they haven't a hope of surviving but they still endure
I agree. My jest was building on an earlier comment about how silly it is for WHFB to be the Time of Legends for AOS.
Many people misunderstand how (and why) the Old World came about. It's a pastiche to include everything, especially that could potentially have figures be used to cover D&D or even historical wargaming.
It's got pretty much every type of fantasy-trope culture going. Haughty nobility a la medieval France, check. Crazed religious empire a la HRE, check. Violent orc thugs, check. High elves, check. Wood elves, check.
There deliberately wasn't much truly original in there - most things had a slight slant to help things fit together, but that was the point. It made everything recognisable. It was easy to imagine a village of halflings, or an Empire town, an Orcish village. We'd all read dozens of books that described these very things.
Warhammer took those staple, stable tropes and deliberately cranked them up to 11 for maximum ridiculousness - satirical extremes of flagellation in the Empire and arrogance of the nobility and class gap in Bretonnia. We all knew there was literally NOBODY poorer than a Bretonnian peasant (DENNIS! There's some lovely filth down here!). Let's not mention Araby (flying carpets), Nippon (ninjas), Cathay (jade empire), or the Pygmies in Lustria. Political correctness wasn't a requirement back then, so those tropes too, predictably dialled all the way to the right.
The original Realm of Chaos dropped with a similar reckless abandon. Moorcock influences mixed with Assyrian mythology, with a dash of GWAR added for good measure.
It was never a Tolkien rip-off any more than Moorcock was, or Brooks, or Weis and Hickman. It took ALL those fantasy tropes, shoved them in a pot and gave a damn good stir.
And I loved it for it. From a critical analysis, as a game setting, and marketing tool for miniatures, it's actually pretty damn close to perfect, if nobody else is really competing on the miniature quality or production mass.
Age of Sigmar's background is... well, I'm not so fond. I hated it at first, but slowly it seems to be firming up and my opinion is improving. It needs grounding - as others have said, it's missing the familiarity that a really good setting needs, even if dialled to frankly very silly levels of overexaggeration. Strides seem to be being made in that direction with fleshing out some of the Free Peoples cities and so forth, but we need to see more of that.
AoS's background is still developing from "nearly non-existent", and dropping a big wargame with a much more developed background into GW's rotation runs the very real risk of torpedoing that altogether.
Warhammer's background, and 40ks, was hammered together over decades as winterdyne said. It took a bunch of really recognisable stuff and built something unique - a large strength was that it WAS recognisable stuff. You don't really have to explain what a Dwarf is.
Currently it seems like AoS lacks a sense of PLACE. Warhammer had that, for certain - and Mordheim had sense of place in absolute spades. Look at the Mordheim rulebook, it's a work of art.
Frostgrave, a game where the background could be written on a sheet of A4, has a sense of place.
Shadespire is interesting to me, because it too seems to have a lot of sense of place, for all that I've read is the web page.
The realms really don't. Everything seems massively overblown, with a lingering sense of "but what do these people eat? Where are the normal folks?" Surely not everyone is a Stormcast.
winterdyne wrote: Many people misunderstand how (and why) the Old World came about. It's a pastiche to include everything, especially that could potentially have figures be used to cover D&D or even historical wargaming.
It's got pretty much every type of fantasy-trope culture going. Haughty nobility a la medieval France, check. Crazed religious empire a la HRE, check. Violent orc thugs, check. High elves, check. Wood elves, check.
There deliberately wasn't much truly original in there - most things had a slight slant to help things fit together, but that was the point. It made everything recognisable. It was easy to imagine a village of halflings, or an Empire town, an Orcish village. We'd all read dozens of books that described these very things.
Warhammer took those staple, stable tropes and deliberately cranked them up to 11 for maximum ridiculousness - satirical extremes of flagellation in the Empire and arrogance of the nobility and class gap in Bretonnia. We all knew there was literally NOBODY poorer than a Bretonnian peasant (DENNIS! There's some lovely filth down here!). Let's not mention Araby (flying carpets), Nippon (ninjas), Cathay (jade empire), or the Pygmies in Lustria. Political correctness wasn't a requirement back then, so those tropes too, predictably dialled all the way to the right.
The original Realm of Chaos dropped with a similar reckless abandon. Moorcock influences mixed with Assyrian mythology, with a dash of GWAR added for good measure.
It was never a Tolkien rip-off any more than Moorcock was, or Brooks, or Weis and Hickman. It took ALL those fantasy tropes, shoved them in a pot and gave a damn good stir.
And I loved it for it. From a critical analysis, as a game setting, and marketing tool for miniatures, it's actually pretty damn close to perfect, if nobody else is really competing on the miniature quality or production mass.
Age of Sigmar's background is... well, I'm not so fond. I hated it at first, but slowly it seems to be firming up and my opinion is improving. It needs grounding - as others have said, it's missing the familiarity that a really good setting needs, even if dialled to frankly very silly levels of overexaggeration. Strides seem to be being made in that direction with fleshing out some of the Free Peoples cities and so forth, but we need to see more of that.
You've really nailed how I feel about WHFB. It annoys me when people call it a rip off of Tolkien or Moorcock or whoever, because they are dismissing the brilliance it took to make an ultimate fantasy sandbox that is compelling in its own right. Warhammer, and 40k back in 3rd edition, is greater than the sum of its parts, and the parts are all the fun tropes in fantasy. No other setting ever pulled off the same trick. Saying WHFB is just a rip off is like saying Robocop is just an action movie.
the problem with AOS is also that the setting is as compelling and detailled as those you find in pay to win korean mmorpg. To be honest, it seems to be getting a bit better recently, but there is still a ton to do
It would actually give them a chance to scale it back abit and carve out some of the bloat and focus on the core of the game.
What do you think is too "bloated" about AoS that wouldn't be for a WFB return?
I am sure everyone would have different ideas about it. However, for a start I would really focus in on the Old World vs. the Non-Old World. I mean, Forgeworld can only do so many models, so they would probably need to start a bit smaller and then expand outward once some core forces were defined. To me, the Core foes in Warhammer are Empire vs. Chaos Wastes and would have to be first in my mind. If those go okay, you could then expand outward.
And why do we need a separate game for that?
Slaves to Darkness exist still, as do the Free Peoples.
Well, I really don't need a new game. There are many other games I can play and set them in the Old World even, but people were asking if GW should bring back the Old World; and I was proposing a method they could do that.
I mean if we want to be absurd reductionaries, why have AoS since 40K all ready has melee weapons and magic. Just choose to eliminate the shooting phase. Why do we need a sperate game for that? I mean, I'm just asking questions.
You've really nailed how I feel about WHFB. It annoys me when people call it a rip off of Tolkien or Moorcock or whoever, because they are dismissing the brilliance it took to make an ultimate fantasy sandbox that is compelling in its own right. Warhammer, and 40k back in 3rd edition, is greater than the sum of its parts, and the parts are all the fun tropes in fantasy. No other setting ever pulled off the same trick. Saying WHFB is just a rip off is like saying Robocop is just an action movie.
To me, this is the difference between a narrative setting and a game setting. WHFB had a great narrative setting, but there was little compelling about it from a game perspective. All of its brilliance was in little details that only came to light when you were already in deep. There wasn't enough hooks from the outside to make the setting stand out from the rest of the run of the mill fantasy out there. No where was this probably more evident than when Age of Reckoning came out and garnered very little interest as a literal digital roleplay setting. There were people who knew better, but for the most part:
winterdyne wrote:Many people misunderstand how (and why) the Old World came about. It's a pastiche to include everything, especially that could potentially have figures be used to cover D&D or even historical wargaming.
It's got pretty much every type of fantasy-trope culture going. Haughty nobility a la medieval France, check. Crazed religious empire a la HRE, check. Violent orc thugs, check. High elves, check. Wood elves, check.
There deliberately wasn't much truly original in there - most things had a slight slant to help things fit together, but that was the point. It made everything recognisable. It was easy to imagine a village of halflings, or an Empire town, an Orcish village. We'd all read dozens of books that described these very things.
Warhammer took those staple, stable tropes and deliberately cranked them up to 11 for maximum ridiculousness - satirical extremes of flagellation in the Empire and arrogance of the nobility and class gap in Bretonnia. We all knew there was literally NOBODY poorer than a Bretonnian peasant (DENNIS! There's some lovely filth down here!). Let's not mention Araby (flying carpets), Nippon (ninjas), Cathay (jade empire), or the Pygmies in Lustria. Political correctness wasn't a requirement back then, so those tropes too, predictably dialled all the way to the right.
The original Realm of Chaos dropped with a similar reckless abandon. Moorcock influences mixed with Assyrian mythology, with a dash of GWAR added for good measure.
It was never a Tolkien rip-off any more than Moorcock was, or Brooks, or Weis and Hickman. It took ALL those fantasy tropes, shoved them in a pot and gave a damn good stir.
And I loved it for it. From a critical analysis, as a game setting, and marketing tool for miniatures, it's actually pretty damn close to perfect, if nobody else is really competing on the miniature quality or production mass.
Age of Sigmar's background is... well, I'm not so fond. I hated it at first, but slowly it seems to be firming up and my opinion is improving. It needs grounding - as others have said, it's missing the familiarity that a really good setting needs, even if dialled to frankly very silly levels of overexaggeration. Strides seem to be being made in that direction with fleshing out some of the Free Peoples cities and so forth, but we need to see more of that.
Enjoy your exalt, this sums it up perfectly.
streetsamurai wrote:the problem with AOS is also that the setting is as compelling and detailled as those you find in pay to win korean mmorpg. To be honest, it seems to be getting a bit better recently, but there is still a ton to do
You've really nailed how I feel about WHFB. It annoys me when people call it a rip off of Tolkien or Moorcock or whoever, because they are dismissing the brilliance it took to make an ultimate fantasy sandbox that is compelling in its own right. Warhammer, and 40k back in 3rd edition, is greater than the sum of its parts, and the parts are all the fun tropes in fantasy. No other setting ever pulled off the same trick. Saying WHFB is just a rip off is like saying Robocop is just an action movie.
To me, this is the difference between a narrative setting and a game setting. WHFB had a great narrative setting, but there was little compelling about it from a game perspective. All of its brilliance was in little details that only came to light when you were already in deep. There wasn't enough hooks from the outside to make the setting stand out from the rest of the run of the mill fantasy out there. No where was this probably more evident than when Age of Reckoning came out and garnered very little interest as a literal digital roleplay setting. There were people who knew better, but for the most part:
A while before that (wow, it's getting close to 20 years!) I was working on the Climax version as a code monkey (originally on the MMO-RTS concept) and I ran the studio WFRP games as the design changed direction to MMORPG. Many of us kinda wanted to go ridiculously dark with it, and yet keep things tongue-in-cheek in places. Kinda like watching Jabberwocky on a bad trip. There was a lot of love and enthusiasm there.
Could have been glorious, but the studio imploded in fairly short order. Not really privy to why.
I think GW should produce a 9th edition WHFB as a specialist Game. They need only produce the rulebook and three of four omnibus army books, nothing else per se. Though lines would be available via GW retail with square bases sold seperately.
Should they? While my heart says "oh yes, please do!", I know better...so no, they obviously shouldn't. That's a dead end discussion.
However, the new fluff, AoS models and massive direction change have cemented the fact that I will never play a Warhammer Fantasy based property on the tabletop. So, in that GW did lose a customer, but I suspect they gained a decent chunk. Shame too, because had they fixed the rules in the Old World with the old model lines still being supported I may have actually been tempted.
My interest lies in the low gritty fantasy...not elf shark riders and flaming dragon riding wannabe-slayers, etc.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: "Legends tell of a time when heroes were smaller than life. They strode the land like ungiants, and carried upon their backs a reasonable amount of provisions for a surprisingly short period of time. Their deeds echoed across the land but only inside valleys or empty buildings."
Perfect summary and it made me laugh a great deal, thanks for that!
Kanluwen wrote: There's a whole thing in the Idoneth Deepkin book talking about how the Idoneth were first just raiding/sinking ships before they started going after colonies and settlements.
Sorry if I was unclear but I didn't mean to imply that nobody uses boats in AoS, just that next to nobody uses strange warp teleportation gates in WFB (not very sure what the portals I heard about in AoS are exactly tbf).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: "Legends tell of a time when heroes were smaller than life. They strode the land like ungiants, and carried upon their backs a reasonable amount of provisions for a surprisingly short period of time. Their deeds echoed across the land but only inside valleys or empty buildings."
Perfect summary and it made me laugh a great deal, thanks for that!
Kanluwen wrote: There's a whole thing in the Idoneth Deepkin book talking about how the Idoneth were first just raiding/sinking ships before they started going after colonies and settlements.
Sorry if I was unclear but I didn't mean to imply that nobody uses boats in AoS, just that next to nobody uses strange warp teleportation gates in WFB (not very sure what the portals I heard about in AoS are exactly tbf).
I guess that it's a close enough, to be fair. IMO it's a bit hard to pinpoint describe what a realmgate is,aside from the basic term of "portal", considering that's what they look like.
Problem with AOS is it is not one world. They could have done one world with different lands but instead we have this stupid realm stuff along with a background that nobody outside of some fans actually cares about or understands.
The only history in the realms is "recent" and has no impact because there is no grounding for it storywise, it's "oh this new place we made had this happen and it changed it before you even knew what it used to be, or cared".
Nagash and the new Nighthaunt units are really nice models but the fluff for them is stupid. "oh you were a hunter in your previous life so I shall make you a rat faced spirit". Why the hell does Nagash even care ? Is he micromanaging every spirit ? This is the guy who killed entire peoples, who came close to conquering an entire world, who has returned from death again and again.
By comparison 40K is based on a background that, whilst occassionaly retconned, is largely the same with the Heresy as its founding stone story wise and more so now that the Black Library series is fleshing it out.
The Old World was a container for a lot of races but it had history that had been built on and made real world sense in that places had borders, different climates, strong dominant races in most locations and Chaos had a clear source ala the Eye of Terror in 40K. Now ? Who knows ?
Could easily change the AOS fluff to bring the Stormcast into the Old World, just have some flying fortress thing flatten somewhere no one cares about in the Old World and dump itself down on it.
streetsamurai wrote: the problem with AOS is also that the setting is as compelling and detailled as those you find in pay to win korean mmorpg. To be honest, it seems to be getting a bit better recently, but there is still a ton to do
I find individual factions like Idoneth or Sylvaneth range from good to bad but the overall quality remains awful.
Gw ought to simply redux back to 5th edition and fix the issues with those old army books. Or 7th. Either way, AOS is alright. KOW is not a good stand in, and T9A changes rules too often.
Lord Kragan wrote: I guess that it's a close enough, to be fair. IMO it's a bit hard to pinpoint describe what a realmgate is,aside from the basic term of "portal", considering that's what they look like.
njtrader wrote: Gw ought to simply redux back to 5th edition and fix the issues with those old army books. Or 7th. Either way, AOS is alright. KOW is not a good stand in, and T9A changes rules too often.
WFB needs to return.
This right here points to the big problem with "bringing back the Old World". What do they bring back? There is the Old Hammer movement around 3rd ed. There is a local group in my area now pushing a 6th ed league and there are other locals talking about doing an 8th ed. Does GW make a whole new RnF game? It's easy to say something can be done till the details start getting put to paper. At that point, you start losing people because it isn't exactly what they want. How would the reaction be if all they did was re-release 8th ed? There was enough bile towards 8th, would you just see the same people suddenly just start throwing out the same complaints they did when 8th came out originally?
A while before that (wow, it's getting close to 20 years!) I was working on the Climax version as a code monkey (originally on the MMO-RTS concept) and I ran the studio WFRP games as the design changed direction to MMORPG. Many of us kinda wanted to go ridiculously dark with it, and yet keep things tongue-in-cheek in places. Kinda like watching Jabberwocky on a bad trip. There was a lot of love and enthusiasm there.
Could have been glorious, but the studio imploded in fairly short order. Not really privy to why.
I heard some nice things about that game, how mundane equipment got worn lost or destroyed easily and you had to rely on core stats.
How you were encouraged to run and climb a tree to hide if a fight proved tough.
How monsters didn't have visible level information at all, you had to gauge how tough things were by looking at them, and the tougher things got the more it showed.
Absolutely. Square bases, real meaningful movement phases, with marches and formations, ranks of troops. They pissed all that good stuff away in AoS to make it Timmy Smash Toys Together!.
njtrader wrote: Gw ought to simply redux back to 5th edition and fix the issues with those old army books. Or 7th. Either way, AOS is alright. KOW is not a good stand in, and T9A changes rules too often.
Disagree, If they bring back WHFB they should really take some inspiration from KoW. If they want a RnF game, make it a RnF game, rather then some skirmish game in RnF clothing.
njtrader wrote: Gw ought to simply redux back to 5th edition and fix the issues with those old army books. Or 7th. Either way, AOS is alright. KOW is not a good stand in, and T9A changes rules too often.
Disagree, If they bring back WHFB they should really take some inspiration from KoW. If they want a RnF game, make it a RnF game, rather then some skirmish game in RnF clothing.
I'd love to see WHFB come back as a true mass battle rank and file game.
njtrader wrote: Gw ought to simply redux back to 5th edition and fix the issues with those old army books. Or 7th. Either way, AOS is alright. KOW is not a good stand in, and T9A changes rules too often.
Disagree, If they bring back WHFB they should really take some inspiration from KoW. If they want a RnF game, make it a RnF game, rather then some skirmish game in RnF clothing.
Only in 15mm or less.
I hate watching KoW in 28+mm, it just feels too close to the action when everything is so abstacted out.
Whirlwind wrote: I think there will be an inevitability that WFB will be released at some point but more from a GW perspective. Their IP on it will eventually lapse and put it into the public domain.
After 50 years from publication for the books with no listed author, or 70 years after the author's death in the case of books with an attributed author. I'm pretty sure all editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battles have a named author, and all of them are still alive. So, even if they're all struck by lightning today, none of the text of the Warhammer rulebooks will be in the public domain until 2088. Some of the Warhammer Armies books might enter the public domain in the 2050s.
njtrader wrote: Gw ought to simply redux back to 5th edition and fix the issues with those old army books. Or 7th. Either way, AOS is alright. KOW is not a good stand in, and T9A changes rules too often.
Disagree, If they bring back WHFB they should really take some inspiration from KoW. If they want a RnF game, make it a RnF game, rather then some skirmish game in RnF clothing.
Only in 15mm or less.
I hate watching KoW in 28+mm, it just feels too close to the action when everything is so abstacted out.
I prefer 6/10mm myself, but if they decided to return WHFB in 28mm I still think they should take some notes from KoW.
Make friends, join a club. Necromunda and Blood Bowl survived, Inq28 survives to this day, as does Mordheim. If you wanted PUGs of WHFB in your local store, you were probably doing it wrong.
As for them bringing back the setting - sure. In Warmaster, a re-release of Mordheim, Man'O'War. Yep.
Re-releasing WHFB would not work, it would in fact be a huge mistake and a waste of resources that will make them more money doing other things.
What all of the people who simply say "it's money on the table" and associated comments fail to realise or recognise -either through a lack of understanding or being deliberately obtuse is that employees - people - can be used for things that are worth their time or less of their time.
For those people who are or have been employed, think about it in terms of the best use of your time while you're at work. if you're not working as a cleaner (which is fine) then the best use of your time is probably not vacuuming the floor or cleaning the toilets.
For those people who have "skilled" work, then think of the best use of their time. Someone who's job it is to keep the IT running might not be best spending time doing the photocopying.
So what I'm getting at here is that rules writers are a resource. Is their limited time best used for AoS/40k content, new boxed games, or a visit to the past of WHFB? Which of those products is going to be able to be supported by GW's retail stores (limited space!), web presence or production capability?
As for "hire more rules writers" - God knows that GW's books are filled with things that need FAQ and errata-ing as it is. So simply hiring more "unskilled" people is probably not the best solution. Hiring skilled people to work on staff can't always work if they don't want to relocate to Nottingham. Here's a video where a guy who was great at breaking down a video game explains why he didn't want to relocate for an offered job. https://youtu.be/KojFKQPpVIg feth, I've been offered work that would have required me to move to a different city. Didn't take it. My family & friends are here, so... nope.
On top of that, with the current renaissance of tabletop games across the board along with Kickstarter, lots of quality designers are ...pretty busy right now. James Hewlett went from Mantic to GW to independent and still able to work for both pretty bloody quickly.
Now, I personally don't enjoy, like or care about the AoS background. I also stopped playing WHF when 5th edition Herohammer took the game away from being troop-focused and into a weird game of Superhero-character "Timmy Smash Toys Together!" (see what I did there?).
ahem.
So I don't give two gaks about the AoS background, and WHFB's rules went to gak years ago. My solution? Play a better ruleset (KoW for me), but you're welcome to continue playing 8th, or T9A and also dabble in AoS, but with my own head-canon take on it, where gak just gets shoehorned into The Old World, just the same as GW would do whenever a new Warhammer Armies came out. Fyreslayers? Yeah, a more rabid sub-cult of the regular Slayer cult, found deeper in the Eastern World's Edge Mountains. Kharadon Overlords? Another semi-isolationist Dwarf culture from the Northern World's Edge Mountains who has just made contact. Who are the Idoneth Deepkin? They're what the Sea Elves became. Stormcast? Aloof heroes from beyond through a portal - just like Chaos, only Sigmar-ish (but can they really be trusted?). Yeah, it's easy to have those alongside my Old World armies, and the fluff is just the same kind of melange that it's always been, except the new additions are Flying Sharks and Magmadroths and Airships instead of the Bloodwrack Shrine and Mortis Engine and ...Gyrocopters.
Legacy models could work through some sort of time-hole portal, but they've kept most models available (excepting Bretts and TK, but I guess they were the lowest rungs and had to clear them to fit in newer models - sucks as I never got all the models from either range that I wanted, but it's not all about my own personal desires.)
I don't think it would hurt too much for them to keep the digital rules available via Black Library alongside the iTunes store as another poster noted, along with a caveat that this game is no longer supported, so do not expect FAQs etc. Printed rulebook aren't a simple matter, nor would a giant physical omnibus, so they're (once again) not a realistic proposition.
Novels? Basically treated as tie-in merch, so they would work if they had an active Warmaster/Manowar/Mordheim property. Notsomuch for a game that's no longer supported.
Ultimately, WHFB the rank'n'flank isn't coming back. It's too hard and expensive to get into with GW's pricing model. If you like it, grab one of the many editions of the many books floating around in swap shops or eBay or acquire the rules through other means online. It's all out there still, along with many of the original models, lots of 3rd-party proxies, along with the secondhand market. If you want a living ruleset, try T9A or KoW. But WHFB isn't returning, and all the internet grousing in the world is just screaming into the wind and a waste of your time, outside of the enjoyment gleaned from arguing with people on the internet or the enjoyment gleaned from an echo chamber.
The Old World setting, though? Yeah. There's still a lot to mine there outside of the unwieldy, huge beast of WHFB. I do think we'll see them dip in and out of it in a more limited manner. Probably starting with a new Mordheim within a few years.
njtrader wrote: Gw ought to simply redux back to 5th edition and fix the issues with those old army books. Or 7th. Either way, AOS is alright. KOW is not a good stand in, and T9A changes rules too often.
Disagree, If they bring back WHFB they should really take some inspiration from KoW. If they want a RnF game, make it a RnF game, rather then some skirmish game in RnF clothing.
Only in 15mm or less.
I hate watching KoW in 28+mm, it just feels too close to the action when everything is so abstacted out.
I prefer 6/10mm myself, but if they decided to return WHFB in 28mm I still think they should take some notes from KoW.
Can GW out-KoWKoW?
No way. They have warmaster if they want to follow that route. T9A is a better mirror for GW style of rules writing.
With the added note that the Warhammer setting, or a slightly demented version of it, is still being published actively by GW. Blood Bowl is set in The Comedy Old World, not the Realms.
Virtually every tie-in GW has going on non 40k or 30k stuff is based in the Old World - Vermintide, Total War, etc. WFRP is just about to be re-released. The Old World isn't dead.
And GW can't afford it to be. A lot of the AoS lore doesn't make any sense without the Old World. It's not like 40k, where they came up with that setting first, threw in a reference to The Horus Heresy in a two paragraph boxout in Rogue Trader and then worked stuff backwards towards the Heresy later. AoS is built directly on the foundations of the Old World, and in many cases by the same guys - Sigmar, Nagash etc.
GW is going to have to keep the Old World rumbling in the background otherwise AoS has no base.
Oh, and total agreement with "bring in Warmaster, put all the Warhammer rulebooks on the webstore with a big WE DON'T SUPPORT THIS ANYMORE label" and call 8th edition done. It's cheap and there's no fundamental reason NOT to do that.
With the added note that the Warhammer setting, or a slightly demented version of it, is still being published actively by GW. Blood Bowl is set in The Comedy Old World, not the Realms.
Virtually every tie-in GW has going on non 40k or 30k stuff is based in the Old World - Vermintide, Total War, etc. WFRP is just about to be re-released. The Old World isn't dead.
And GW can't afford it to be. A lot of the AoS lore doesn't make any sense without the Old World. It's not like 40k, where they came up with that setting first, threw in a reference to The Horus Heresy in a two paragraph boxout in Rogue Trader and then worked stuff backwards towards the Heresy later. AoS is built directly on the foundations of the Old World, and in many cases by the same guys - Sigmar, Nagash etc.
GW is going to have to keep the Old World rumbling in the background otherwise AoS has no base.
Oh, and total agreement with "bring in Warmaster, put all the Warhammer rulebooks on the webstore with a big WE DON'T SUPPORT THIS ANYMORE label" and call 8th edition done. It's cheap and there's no fundamental reason NOT to do that.
They probably dont sell the physical book anymore because they dont want to pay to have a low moving product printed.
Most people who want to play rank and flank probably still own a 8th or earlier book. If not, they can be gotten in the istore, i dont know about android. Warhammer: Rulebook is what you want if anyone is curious.
Yeah. When I said Black Library. I meant BL Digital, so my bad there. Your rationale is exactly right. (Plus space for physical inventory vs digital).
Graphite is also correct with regard to Blood Bowl and the new edition of WFRP which I thought of then forgot while doing my messy stream-of-consciousness post.
I should probably write up the above properly and much more eloquently one day so I can just copypasta it in when these arguments crop up again and again.
Game Mechanics aside, The Mortal Realms is a far richer seam of potential story telling.
The Old World was highly constrained, the nation states far too well established to upset unless you went the whole hog (and they did, and I respect those that disagree with the decision).
The Empire was always the bulwark - you can’t have Bretonnia seize land for long, and vice versa.
My only wish is that The Border Princes, the most malleable area of The Old World had been explored better.
But given the technological limitations, it got difficult explaining exactly why Lizardmen were having a Dust Up with Ogres, in The Old World. Or why a group of Wood Elves has left Athel Loren to go feth up something in Naggaroth.
Yes, I want the old, seemingly defunct armies back. I don’t like to see anyone’s collection negated even though I don’t collect them. But all I can say is give it time. Outside The Old World, the Mortal Realms have far more flexibility to include Bretonnianesque Chivalric Orders - perhaps its Morathi or Neferata manipulating from afar, and occasionally sending visions to the Faithful/Deluded (or even Alarielle...). But for me, an eternal crusade across all the Mortal Realms with squires and Knights Errant being recruited from the best candidates as they travel the Realms is far more interesting in terms of potential (if not execution) than a country somehow immune to the advent of Black Powder Weapons, despite the very same rendering expensive plate armour pretty much pointless in genuine history.
Nope and I'd wish people would stop asking for it.
Right now WFB have it better than we have ever had before. If you like WFB there is so many ways to buy the minis and get the rulebooks, usually for way under the cost.
If people keep moaning about changing AoS or wanting WFB, eventually GW will ruin AoS with more changes and it will become just another WFB clone.
There are so many games out there as well that fill in the rank and flank.
Trouble is, people in this hobby seem lazy as hell and are not willing to put anything more than the basic effort into it. No player base for WFB? Try asking people to play. Rulebook not available directly from GW- try the trade groups or ebay.
People just want the game handed to them. Most 'dead' games have a fantastic player base still, they just required a little effort to keep going. Epic for example has remained huge- huge enough to keep tormentor scene alive, new army lists and several very popular proxy lines of minis. WFB fans could have done the same.
As for the fluff- AoS is huge and empty so you can make the game what you want it to- stop asking for GW to spoonfeeed you everything. If you want to play in a more old world setting- create a city of your own, surrounded by spooky forests and skaven in the sewers. Don't like the idea of lizardmen being non corporeal imagination angels? Create your own tribe of creatures that inhabit the realms.
WFB had thirty long years and that fluff hasn't gone anywhere and It got a good send off. But it had to go. TV shows don't last as long as it did and most TV shows outstay their welcome. AoS lets some of the best parts of the fluff be reused/returned but with out knocking out the same old tripe year after year. We are getting something new, interesting and way more original.
