I had not seen a recent Battletech related N&R thread, so thought I would start a new one.
Tech Raptor interviews Catalyst Game Labs, who is now sharing the spotlight quite a bit with HBS after the overwhelming success of the recently released Battletech computer game. Thankfully Catalyst has new starter sets coming soon, as the last 2014 set (itself a redo of the 2009 starter set) has been unavailable for a couple years now.
2 high-quality, fully assembled (unpainted) miniatures:
Griffin
Wolverine
24-page Quick Start Rulebook
8 Quick Start Record Sheets
48 page fiction novella by William H. Keith, Jr., a prequel to the Gray Death Legion saga featuring Carlyle’s Commandos and Durant Carlyle; only available in the Beginner Box.
4-page Instant Guide to the Inner Sphere
4 Pilot Cards
One all-new 18″ x 22″ full-color paper map (hexed, double-sided)
Punchboard of additional BattleMechs
2 dice
The BattleTech: A Game of Armoured Combat box contains:
8 high-quality, fully assembled (unpainted) miniatures:
Awesome
BattleMaster
Catapult
Commando
Locust
Shadow Hawk
Thunderbolt
Wolverine
48-page Rulebook
16-page Record Sheet Booklet
48 page fiction novella by William H. Keith, Jr., a prequel to the Gray Death Legion saga featuring Carlyle’s Commandos and Durant Carlyle; only available in the A Game of Armored Combat box.
16-page Universe Primer
8 Pilot Cards
8 Alpha Strike Cards
2 heavy-stock reference sheets
Two all-new 18” x 22” full-color paper maps (hexed, double-sided)
Punchboard of additional BattleMechs and terrain
2 dice
The Wolverine and Griffin from the Beginner Box Set.
As someone looking in from the the outside, I always thought the Mad Cat was the iconic Battletech mech, the only instantly recognizable mecha in their range for mainstream audiences. So, why is it not in the starter set?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As someone looking in from the the outside, I always thought the Mad Cat was the iconic Battletech mech, the only instantly recognizable mecha in their range for mainstream audiences. So, why is it not in the starter set?
The Timberwolf (aka Mad Cat) is from the Clan Invasion, which is late 3049. The starter sets are from 3048 and before. It's addressed in the article, but the basic reason is that the starter sets will always be from the "beginning" of the game timeline (fourth Succession War) while new products are developed in the advancing timeline (which is like now in the 3140's or whatever). Mechanics-wise, the Clan invasion introduces a whole new level of tech and rules, aptly named Level 2, because it's much higher technology level. Starter sets are the core, Level 1 rules.
TechRaptor: BattleTech is a huge IP with its own deep running history. HBS/PBX chose to start their game near the very start of the BattleTech timeline. Which era are you basing the new releases in, or making access to, and why did you choose these eras?
Brent Evans, BattleTech Line Developer: The ongoing BattleTech saga has a rich wonderful history spanning hundreds of years in-universe, and hundreds of products in real life. Each of the video games has launched from their own intended niche in the history, but a big part of that choice is their intentions to have space and time within Eras to expand into and through various universe events (like the Clan Invasion, Civil War or Jihad) in order to use story-line to fuel their future expansions. By contrast the tabletop side of the property has to do two very different things; first we need ‘gateway’ products which serve to bring new players into the universe, which is often done best with tech dated prior to the Clan Invasion. At the other end of the spectrum we must drive the forward-most point of the epic saga, using story as the forge keeping the property current and relevant. So while the video games get to bring alive specific points in this timeline, the tabletop game is really the steward of the universe and has always been the driving force moving that timeline forward. This is why you’ll see introductory products like the new Box Sets (set in the pre-3048 Era) release alongside the “Shattered Fortress” sourcebook (which begins in the year 3146.) We keep the fires burning bright at both ends of the spectrum.
TR: The Mechs in the two starter boxes do look incredible. Players are obviously all going to have their own favourite Mechs that might not be included in those sets (mine is the TimberWolf if you could make that a priority please!). What can you say to put their minds at ease?
BE: The enormous positive response to those miniatures is not lost on management at all. We’re keenly aware of the desire for more miniatures along the lines of those in the boxed sets. Depending on the success of those sets, we certainly hope to do more like them in the future. This is also my chance to shine the spotlight on the incredible efforts of Iron Wind Metals and their ongoing line of premium miniatures for BattleTech. The IWM team have been incredible supporters of BattleTech over the years, and while Catalyst’s new line of box set products are perfect for leading new players into the universe, that will ever only be a mere appetizer to the enormous number of units available throughout the Inner Sphere – all purchasable through Iron Wind Metals. Not only do they have nearly every unit ever produced for the game, but they have a wide selection of variants and customizable pieces which is unmatched! The colorful folks at IWM are constantly working with me to make sure their product line up is up to date and can meet the needs of every player. When it comes to BattleTech, the premium line of miniatures will always be found with IWM.
Finally! One thing you can never say about a product from CGL is that it was rushed to market! As fond as I am of the derpy IS mech designs, I suspect these more modern looking bots will really help these new sets fly off the shelves.
Fun fact - I purchased 3 IWM mechs, a Super Griffin to use as a regular Griffin and two different Thunderbolts to cobble together something that actually looked decent.. and both of those mechs are represtend here and looking far better than my own attempts. Dang it!
Siygess wrote: Finally! One thing you can never say about a product from CGL is that it was rushed to market! As fond as I am of the derpy IS mech designs, I suspect these more modern looking bots will really help these new sets fly off the shelves.
Fun fact - I purchased 3 IWM mechs, a Super Griffin to use as a regular Griffin and two different Thunderbolts to cobble together something that actually looked decent.. and both of those mechs are represtend here and looking far better than my own attempts. Dang it!
I sold most of my classic mechs and replaced them with 3d printed Mechwarrior Online mechs. So I'll 100% be getting these bad boys as they match the modern aesthetic!
Yeah, the MWO redesigns really fix the VERY outdated designs on those mechs. There's a seller out of poland doing resin MWO designs that I've gotten a few of, but I don't play enough to replace my entire collection. I'll be glad to have these in plastic.
These are supposedly a bit larger than the old ones (at least the prototypes were), I wonder how they'll scale with older collections
Actually I find most of the MWO Mechs' to look to much alike. They have very little distinctive style overall. A few are quite nice, but as a whole they are boring. The Battletech redesigns manage to do a similar job while still retaining enough distinctive style for each design. IMO of course.
Also its the 80s again, I want to buy New Battletech and new Adeptus Titanicus.
I love the MWO designs btw. A lot of BattleTech artwork is really outdated and looks kinda silly. MWO gives them a more modern and serious look, while keeping the distinctive features of each 'Mech. I like that. Also, really interested in the Gray Death Legion prequel, as I actually just finished reading Decision at Thunder Rift (it was a lot of fun to see the similarities and differences in BattleTech back then and now). I hope they will make Clan 'Mechs at some point as well. I love the Clans.
I haven't CBT'd in probably 15 years and the game is probably still bad, but I'm definitely picking both of these sets up! The plastic minis look incredible and I have been playing the heck out of HBS Battletech. This should scratch just the right itch.
I hope that they'll prep the minis a bit better than the one below that still has the 3d printing stepping visible. Spartan Games had the same issue before their closure with their showpiece huge ship models before they shut down. Regardless, good to see Battletech players get a new starter and minis with the release of the PC game. It'll be right on time for me to give it my once in a decade try and see if I've (or its) changed enough for me to get into it.
warboss wrote: I hope that they'll prep the minis a bit better than the one below that still has the 3d printing stepping visible.
I don't necessarily know that is completely print layer lines as it is just lower poly file used. Some of them appear to be layer lines, while others don't make sense to be layer lines because of where they are placed. The most visible ones make it seems it was printed as one piece 90-degree standing. But there are other lines that look like layer lines diagonally so not sure if they printed multiple pieces then assembled. Then there are what appears to be mould lines, but not sure if just bad lines put in to look like armor panels to disguise mould lines like older models have been.
I'm probably going to be in for one of the Beginner boxes and a couple of the main set.
I've wanted a decent Awesome and Catapult for 20 years, so I'm doubling up on this.
CGL have said that they don't want people doing the "Oh, I don't want to buy up all the boxes, I want new players to be able to buy sets and get into the game". They've basically said "buy! buy! buy!". They get more money, they get to release more new products. If people want their Timber Wolves, they've got to make it worth CGL'S time and money.
I hope that they'll prep the minis a bit better than the one below that still has the 3d printing stepping visible.
I donlt actually know what that is
I believe these lines are what were being referred to.
Chillreaper wrote: I'm probably going to be in for one of the Beginner boxes and a couple of the main set.
I've wanted a decent Awesome and Catapult for 20 years, so I'm doubling up on this.
CGL have said that they don't want people doing the "Oh, I don't want to buy up all the boxes, I want new players to be able to buy sets and get into the game". They've basically said "buy! buy! buy!". They get more money, they get to release more new products. If people want their Timber Wolves, they've got to make it worth CGL'S time and money.
To be fair CGL needs to make this re-launch worth player's time and money too. Battletech has been of life support for a few years now since key products were OOP and hard to find which has made growing the player base difficult at best. These sets look good, and I am excited, but they need to get the core products like map sheets and starter boxes available and easy to buy. More plastic lance boxes like the $9.99 ones they just discontinued would be nice too, especially if they have redesigned `Mechs in them similar to the ones in these starters.
The Timberwolf (aka Mad Cat) is from the Clan Invasion, which is late 3049. The starter sets are from 3048 and before. It's addressed in the article, but the basic reason is that the starter sets will always be from the "beginning" of the game timeline (fourth Succession War) while new products are developed in the advancing timeline (which is like now in the 3140's or whatever). Mechanics-wise, the Clan invasion introduces a whole new level of tech and rules, aptly named Level 2, because it's much higher technology level. Starter sets are the core, Level 1 rules.
Battletech is one of those games that should be an unstoppable juggernaut, but has forever let itself by held back by its glory days. Never is this as infuriating to me as when the timelines come into play. There are just so many.... dull, mech designs that every time they fail to redesign the game around their iconic mechs that aren't stolen, it just feels like a huge missed opportunity. The game could absolutely soar with full reboot, but forever seems content to limp along on its nostalgia factor.
warboss wrote: I hope that they'll prep the minis a bit better than the one below that still has the 3d printing stepping visible.
I don't necessarily know that is completely print layer lines as it is just lower poly file used. Some of them appear to be layer lines, while others don't make sense to be layer lines because of where they are placed. The most visible ones make it seems it was printed as one piece 90-degree standing. But there are other lines that look like layer lines diagonally so not sure if they printed multiple pieces then assembled. Then there are what appears to be mould lines, but not sure if just bad lines put in to look like armor panels to disguise mould lines like older models have been.
I agree that they're inconsistent. For instance, the grooves on the left hip pad is very strange and obvious and, most importantly, not consistent with the finer stepping visible around the knees. I don't think it's a low poly problem though as visible triangles/facets on curves aren't prominent to my eyes. I do think your suggestion that it was printed in multiple pieces instead of as one single piece model (maybe at differing layer resolutions too?) is the simplest explanation as to why there are so many different orientations.
I believe these lines are what were being referred to.
Spoiler:
Yup, thanks for pointing them out. For a model not being sold as a raw 3d printed product but instead used as a master for traditional production, I expect those to be filed smooth. If it is instead sold straight from the 3d print bed, it's acceptable as the end customer should do it. Ymmv.
And going by Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering-Sword) DeviantArt Gallery there is no Catapult. What's in the box while it looks like a new sculpt may or may not be an updated design.
Ghaz wrote: And going by Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering-Sword) DeviantArt Gallery there is no Catapult. What's in the box while it looks like a new sculpt may or may not be an updated design.
The current one is this:
The box one is this:
So at the very least is a new mini, and the design also looks different.
The Timberwolf (aka Mad Cat) is from the Clan Invasion, which is late 3049. The starter sets are from 3048 and before. It's addressed in the article, but the basic reason is that the starter sets will always be from the "beginning" of the game timeline (fourth Succession War) while new products are developed in the advancing timeline (which is like now in the 3140's or whatever). Mechanics-wise, the Clan invasion introduces a whole new level of tech and rules, aptly named Level 2, because it's much higher technology level. Starter sets are the core, Level 1 rules.
Battletech is one of those games that should be an unstoppable juggernaut, but has forever let itself by held back by its glory days. Never is this as infuriating to me as when the timelines come into play. There are just so many.... dull, mech designs that every time they fail to redesign the game around their iconic mechs that aren't stolen, it just feels like a huge missed opportunity. The game could absolutely soar with full reboot, but forever seems content to limp along on its nostalgia factor.
Yeah, that's more what I'm getting at. Why would I, Joe Schmoe, buy into Goofy Robots the game in the hope that someday I'll have the option to buy, in addition to the blandest mechs, the one or two mechs I have seen before and perhaps formed a positive impression of?
I'm glad you posted , because I wasn't sure how to respond to Judgedoug, although it was tempting to quote him, bold what I wrote, bold what he had written, and then image link an emoticon of someone unrolling his arm towards the post so that he's pointing at it with his whole flat hand.
Yes, I agree it's a new sculpt and looks more like the existing lineart than the old sculpt ever did. There's just not enough evidence that it's received a full reworking by Shimmering-Sword.
Ghaz wrote: Yes, I agree it's a new sculpt and looks more like the existing lineart than the old sculpt ever did. There's just not enough evidence that it's received a full reworking by Shimmering-Sword.
I have no idea one way or another. But they certainly have updated the mini.
The Timberwolf (aka Mad Cat) is from the Clan Invasion, which is late 3049. The starter sets are from 3048 and before. It's addressed in the article, but the basic reason is that the starter sets will always be from the "beginning" of the game timeline (fourth Succession War) while new products are developed in the advancing timeline (which is like now in the 3140's or whatever). Mechanics-wise, the Clan invasion introduces a whole new level of tech and rules, aptly named Level 2, because it's much higher technology level. Starter sets are the core, Level 1 rules.
Battletech is one of those games that should be an unstoppable juggernaut, but has forever let itself by held back by its glory days. Never is this as infuriating to me as when the timelines come into play. There are just so many.... dull, mech designs that every time they fail to redesign the game around their iconic mechs that aren't stolen, it just feels like a huge missed opportunity. The game could absolutely soar with full reboot, but forever seems content to limp along on its nostalgia factor.
1) The unseen weren't stolen. There are pages and pages of explanation about that tired subject on the internet, but the TL: DR is FASA didn't steal the unseen, they just licensed them from the wrong party. And 20+ years later, it looks like Harmony Gold might not have had the proper license either, but stop with the "stolen" BS. It is false.
2)This is pretty much as close to a full reboot as you are going to get unless you go for a different game system like the Clix attempt back in 2003. Some of the formerly "unseen" core designs are present in this box set for the first time since 1992, though dramatically redesigned.
3) It isn't the nostalgia so much as the rules and design bloat that needs to be addressed. There will always be diehards who prefer the Macross and Dougram designed `Mechs, or like the earlier eras but those players aren't necessarily dragging the game down. 34 years of unit and rules additions bolted on to a game system that was really only ever intended for lance on lance engagements is the problem. The sheer number of weapons systems, unit types, and unit designs makes this game extremely cumbersome, both as a new player and a retailer. Look at Iron Wind Metals catalog of Battletech miniatures and then imagine a store trying to stock even a quarter of them. The number of SKUs is insane! Which is great from a player/buyer perspective, but for retailers the line is too large and too niche to stock.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Yeah, that's more what I'm getting at. Why would I, Joe Schmoe, buy into Goofy Robots the game in the hope that someday I'll have the option to buy, in addition to the blandest mechs, the one or two mechs I have seen before and perhaps formed a positive impression of?
I'm glad you posted , because I wasn't sure how to respond to Judgedoug, although it was tempting to quote him, bold what I wrote, bold what he had written, and then image link an emoticon of someone unrolling his arm towards the post so that he's pointing at it with his whole flat hand.
Don't? If you don't like these `Mech designs, this game isn't for you. If you only like the MadCat/Timberwolf because you saw Mechwarrior 2 back in the day, you are out of luck I suppose. There is a gorgeous MadCat model available but it is sold in pewter so kryptonite for you. Though there are plenty of resin and 3D printed knock offs you can buy online so, maybe look at those alternatives instead?
I do hope the maps that come with these are the same harder card style from the map packs they put out a few years ago, with the punch-out terrain hexes.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Yeah, that's more what I'm getting at. Why would I, Joe Schmoe, buy into Goofy Robots the game in the hope that someday I'll have the option to buy, in addition to the blandest mechs, the one or two mechs I have seen before and perhaps formed a positive impression of?
"Why would I get into a game that has lots of things I don't like!"
You wouldn't, because why would you intentionally start something that doesn't appeal to you.
Stop asking the game to be something it's never been. You don't see me telling Warmachine to be something it's not because I don't find its aesthetic to be all that pleasing.
I plan to buy both box sets and I really like the new models. I played the original, the Click version and the video games. I have a group that is in for playing this version too.
I easily see them pushing the timeline forward and adding Clan mechs.....after they see how sales go. I can also see them be successful and divert more attention to the line.
I just wish they could have this for sale now. The shiny new video game has been out for a few weeks. It made me want to play the tabletop version, and when I went to check it out: out of stock. Maybe I'll still be interested when it comes out, I most likely will be, but I was a 100% guaranteed sale this week, and that percentage may drop by the time this is on sale.
I'm glad the mechs are getting modern designs. I've seen the old ones, and like Rogue Trader-era marines, they have not aged well.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As someone looking in from the the outside, I always thought the Mad Cat was the iconic Battletech mech, the only instantly recognizable mecha in their range for mainstream audiences. So, why is it not in the starter set?
Because it didn't appear in the game until the third edition. First edition (BattleDroids) had ten mechs copied straight from various anime. Second edition (the fist called BattleTecch)had those ten, and added a bunch more. Then there was the lawsuit with Harmony Gold among others, and they lost the right to the images of the original ten, making them the 'unseen'. It wasn't until the Clan Invasion that clan mechs like the Timber Wolf (what you call a Mad Cat) entered the game.
Granted, that was almost thirty years ago, but still...
Really, the most iconic Battletech mechs are the 'unseen', not the clan mechs. And the Griffin was one of them, although it didn't look EXACTLY like the mini pictured above...
I think the issue with "iconic mechs" is that different people will have different opinions on it. What's iconic to the tabletop player won't be the same as what's iconic to the video game player.
Da-Rock wrote: The two mechs that almost everyone knows are the Marauder and Battlemaster. Mine is the Battlemaster followed by the Griffin and Shadowhawk.
Or like, up to three years ago. As Albertorius pointed out, this isn't exactly new news. Aries has had these up for preorder on their site, with these pics, for a long while now. I can't even remember how long ago I originally saw them. And who knows how long it will actually be until CGL gets around to shipping them.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think the issue with "iconic mechs" is that different people will have different opinions on it.
Generally, I think "iconic" means Fourth Succession War and before Clan Invasion.
And that Manchu, is the Tabletop player's perspective. To this generation that probably had their first exposure from computer games- It'll probably be an Uziel or Madcat.
I remember I bought in with the starter with the little cardboard standees, and this bad boy on the cover
Spoiler:
So for me, the Atlas just screams Battletech, and I'm most familiar with those 24 3025 mechs than anything else. My brothers first experience was with Mechwarrior 2, and so they adored the Timberwolf.
Vatbirths.
Honestly, I most hope that this streamlined starter set works out for them. I think their plastic supply is pretty good- I haven't heard of any issues acquiring the Alpha Strike boxes. Now imagine us going forward- and each era getting a starter book with some plastic minis and a micro campaign, like Sword and Dragon, or Wolf and Blake. Styled after the GW event boxes, or the many, many, kickstarter board games, it could be a really awesome way to provide multiple entry points or campaign ideas for veterans. I'd even be cool with two iconic plastic mechs in the Era Starter boxes, and some cardboard for the lancemates- and of course, an Alpha Strike box of appropriate era to flesh out each side.
I agree. I remember seeing many of these mechs in an old Japanese model catalog back in the early 80s. I'm also certain I saw the Warhammer in Robotech, (first season).
Da-Rock wrote: The two mechs that almost everyone knows are the Marauder and Battlemaster. Mine is the Battlemaster followed by the Griffin and Shadowhawk.
For me it was the Mad Cat, or as I knew it at the time, the Timber Wolf, playing the Mechwarrior 2 demo that came on the Win 95 demo disk on my Pentium 166.
I didn't even know what the 'Inner Sphere' was. I didn't understand any of it. Only really got into that later when MechCommander came out.
Some people hate the old art style ("They haven't aged well!") whereas others accept it for what it is. I appreciate what PGI has done with a lot of the modern redesigns, but not all of them are hits to me (the new Wolverine is far too generic, and I think the new Centurion ruins the image of the Centurion).
I just love BTech the game. It was my super-crunchy escape from the simplicity of 40K. It was the game I played when I wanted to play a rule set with actual depth. It was also the one with an advancing story, rather than 40K which was just a setting (until recently).
Then again I'm one of those BTech players who doesn't hold onto their fav time period like their lives depended on it, calling anyone who liked the Clan Invasion/FedCom Civil War/Jihad an idiot.
I like it all - not equally - but don't sit around wishing that the Jihad had never happened or that the Clans ruined everything.
His Master's Voice wrote: Gah, those print lines. I might just as well rip some models from MWO and print my own mechs if that's the quality I can expect from the new box.
Seeing as it’s a prototype I wouldn’t judge just yet.
BattleTech game box wrote:X high-quality, fully assembled (un-painted) miniatures.
Well, they're off to a great start. :/
Why would they assemble the damned things but leave them unpainted? Do they truly not understand the miniatures gaming market?
As for plastic, well that certainly needs to be better defined. In the old days it would mean HISP but now it could mean just about anything. I expect it will be the same crap WizKids used in their MechWarrior game - the same stuff you use in a glue gun.
As usual for anything BattleTech related, it's one step forward, one step backward, and one head firmly lodged up the arse. It's like they're trying to fail.
Oh, one more thing. Why did they hyphenate "unpainted"? How much less professional can this product be? Oh, wait. Topps is involved. Give it time, I guess.
I love that Awesome, the Awesome along with the Zeus where two of my fav mechs.
As to the beginner box are they going with the Grey Death Legion Mercs because they where the one who found the Star League era computer core and sent all the tech info into the inner sphere so the inner sphere could fight back against the Clan invasion?
Breotan wrote: Why would they assemble the damned things but leave them unpainted? Do they truly not understand the miniatures gaming market?
Because miniatures never have been, and never will be, important to BattleTech. You can play the game using coins if you want to - you only have to know which way the 'Mech/vehicle is facing.
Breotan wrote: As for plastic, well that certainly needs to be better defined. In the old days it would mean HISP but now it could mean just about anything. I expect it will be the same crap WizKids used in their MechWarrior game - the same stuff you use in a glue gun.
Unlikely.
Breotan wrote: As usual for anything BattleTech related, it's one step forward, one step backward, and one head firmly lodged up the arse. It's like they're trying to fail.
I know right? I mean, having a game in print, with a demo edition for new people to dip their toes in, with a whole new set of 'Mechs, maps, rules and accessories. They're just leaping backwards.
Breotan wrote: Why would they assemble the damned things but leave them unpainted? Do they truly not understand the miniatures gaming market?
Because miniatures never have been, and never will be, important to BattleTech. You can play the game using coins if you want to - you only have to know which way the 'Mech/vehicle is facing.
I have a coin dispenser with each coin bearing an arrow and a number, in case of "sudden interlopers" during friendly games. If I'm judging. Nothing makes enemies friends like a surprise atlas.
Breotan wrote: As for plastic, well that certainly needs to be better defined. In the old days it would mean HIPS but now it could mean just about anything. I expect it will be the same crap WizKids used in their MechWarrior game - the same stuff you use in a glue gun
It is a tad more probable that they would make them out of the same stuff they did the latest box and the lance pack ones.
BattleTech game box wrote:X high-quality, fully assembled (un-painted) miniatures.
Well, they're off to a great start. :/
Why would they assemble the damned things but leave them unpainted? Do they truly not understand the miniatures gaming market?
As for plastic, well that certainly needs to be better defined. In the old days it would mean HISP but now it could mean just about anything. I expect it will be the same crap WizKids used in their MechWarrior game - the same stuff you use in a glue gun.
As usual for anything BattleTech related, it's one step forward, one step backward, and one head firmly lodged up the arse. It's like they're trying to fail.
Oh, one more thing. Why did they hyphenate "unpainted"? How much less professional can this product be? Oh, wait. Topps is involved. Give it time, I guess.
Feth it. I'm done with this franchise.
Are you always like this?
Or are you trolling?
Unpainted miniatures are the norm. If you don't want to paint miniatures then play Heroclix.
For the plastic, I think you mean HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene). The last box sets and plastics CGL put out were made of equivalent material, so unless they've inexplicably decided to go with a completely different manufacturer or supplier, these will be the same.
I feel bad that a hyphenated word is the straw that broke your camels back. I only hope that in the years left to you that you can find it within yourself to truly be at peace over this issue. Heartfelt thoughts and prayers for you.
This is from Catalyst's page, and looks like the back of the box. One of the things I thought was pretty neat about this one, and topical to the minis or no discussion, is the inclusion of punchboard mechs in here. If you look top and center, there's a sheet of mechs there. If I'm not mistaken, they're the same ones as the plastic miniatures, so you can do mirror matches with the starter box.
I really like that, especially for teaching the game to new players. The old one had plenty of mechs for each weight class, but at the end of the day a Jagermech is just no match for a Catapult.
There's a link to their official release, in which unpainted is un-hyphen-ated, if that kind of thing is important to you.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As someone looking in from the the outside, I always thought the Mad Cat was the iconic Battletech mech, the only instantly recognizable mecha in their range for mainstream audiences. So, why is it not in the starter set?
Because it didn't appear in the game until the third edition. First edition (BattleDroids) had ten mechs copied straight from various anime. Second edition (the fist called BattleTecch)had those ten, and added a bunch more. Then there was the lawsuit with Harmony Gold among others, and they lost the right to the images of the original ten, making them the 'unseen'. It wasn't until the Clan Invasion that clan mechs like the Timber Wolf (what you call a Mad Cat) entered the game.
Granted, that was almost thirty years ago, but still...
Really, the most iconic Battletech mechs are the 'unseen', not the clan mechs. And the Griffin was one of them, although it didn't look EXACTLY like the mini pictured above...
This is really a bit of a problem. I've had a set of Battlemechs for 15 years or so, all Clan, starting with the Mad Cat. To me, and lots of people, Clan stuff isn't new - together with the Vulture and Daishi that's what I think a Mech should look like.
But people who've been collecting for longer think that this is new-fangled stuff that shouldn't be regarded as fit for a base set. That's like saying that the next 40k starter should be an updated miniatures version of Battle at the Farm.
Need to find an alternate way to get my hands on that Griffin though. With that, the wolverine, shadow hawk, and thunderbolt, the fangs of the sun will be well represented!
And going by Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering-Sword) DeviantArt Gallery there is no Catapult. What's in the box while it looks like a new sculpt may or may not be an updated design.
As an actual employee, he does not post all of his CGL owned work on his DeviantArt gallery.
Breotan wrote: Why would they assemble the damned things but leave them unpainted? Do they truly not understand the miniatures gaming market?
Because miniatures never have been, and never will be, important to BattleTech. You can play the game using coins if you want to - you only have to know which way the 'Mech/vehicle is facing.
Battletech is a true wargame - it's hex and counter. Miniatures are a nice extra bonus. Or, use them for Alpha Strike, which is a fantastic miniatures game.
Yeah, 'cause your post made it sound like you were really struggling with the decision.
LOL! It's like the two dozen posts to every kickstarter thread that's like "if only they had made the models 1/53 scale instead of 1/56 scale then I would spend ten million dollars but nope HARD PASS"
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As someone looking in from the the outside, I always thought the Mad Cat was the iconic Battletech mech, the only instantly recognizable mecha in their range for mainstream audiences. So, why is it not in the starter set?
Because it didn't appear in the game until the third edition. First edition (BattleDroids) had ten mechs copied straight from various anime. Second edition (the fist called BattleTecch)had those ten, and added a bunch more. Then there was the lawsuit with Harmony Gold among others, and they lost the right to the images of the original ten, making them the 'unseen'. It wasn't until the Clan Invasion that clan mechs like the Timber Wolf (what you call a Mad Cat) entered the game.
Granted, that was almost thirty years ago, but still...
Really, the most iconic Battletech mechs are the 'unseen', not the clan mechs. And the Griffin was one of them, although it didn't look EXACTLY like the mini pictured above...
This is really a bit of a problem. I've had a set of Battlemechs for 15 years or so, all Clan, starting with the Mad Cat. To me, and lots of people, Clan stuff isn't new - together with the Vulture and Daishi that's what I think a Mech should look like.
But people who've been collecting for longer think that this is new-fangled stuff that shouldn't be regarded as fit for a base set. That's like saying that the next 40k starter should be an updated miniatures version of Battle at the Farm.
Look at it this way, for the past 40+ years Battletech starter set have been based on the early parts of the Battletech that timeline. Even a decades after the clans invasion the Box game had the plastic press form inner spheres mechs. I don't think they plan on rewriting the history of battletech, so the MadCat will be coming along at some point. Could they have done a clan starter set set in the same timeframe? Yes, then their advancing the time line would be about the conflict of who gets to invade the backwards precursor innersphere. Might have been an interesting take on things but they are playing it safe by walking in the footsteps of the old game. The political environment of the inner sphere states with recovered tech and the clan reconnaissance however gives much more room for people to do their own thing in the Battletech world.
Alpha Strike Commander's Edition being released later this year
For those who are unaware, Alpha Strike is a fast-play Miniatures Game. Whereas the Battletech classic game is a true wargame, in which, nominally, a platoon (or "lance") sized game is fought on hex maps with stats tracking on record sheets (and ammunition, heat, location damage tracking, etc), Alpha Strike is company+ sized, often with dozens of mechs on the table. Instead of large record sheets per mech or vehicle, Alpha Strike condenses information into a small card (think Warmachine style). A typical large game of Alpha Strike is completed in a couple hours with dozens of units on the table. All models in Battletech and Alpha Strike are compatible.
Alpha Strike's first edition was released in 2013 and this Commander's Edition replaces the first edition of Alpha Strike and incorporates five years worth of errata and FAQs. "This new edition of the Alpha Strike rules fully revises and updates the original Alpha Strike rulebook, including improvements and optional rules from the Alpha Strike Companion." All mechs and stats will continue to be free online, so all you need to play is a handful of mechs and the Commander's Edition rulebook (and a printer for your stat cards!)
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Insurgency Walker wrote: Yes, then their advancing the time line would be about the conflict of who gets to invade the backwards precursor innersphere.
They have previously mentioned in the past that they would like to to an "Advanced" box set with plastic miniatures, that introduces Level 2 tech - ie, Lostech (Star League) and Clan weaponry, which would include X number of plastic Clan and/or Star League mechs, and advance the starter-set timeline from the Fourth Succession War of the Starter Set through the Clan Invasion up to Operation BULLDOG and the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar (so 3050 through 3059). This is all hypothetical at this point, but since the Battletech box set includes eight mechs to field two Lances, I would imagine this "advanced" set would include eleven plastic mechs - six ComGuard mechs for a SLDF Level II versus 5 Clan mechs in a Clan Star.
KTG17 wrote: That's a Thunderbolt on the cover there. I thought it was Unseen because it was taken from Dougram.
They are bringing Unseen back?
And that looks like a Wolverine in the back! Red just like the Blockhead.
CGL has full license rights for designs from Dougram and Crusher Joe, including the Locust, Wolverine, Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster. Note the contents of the starter sets!
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Mr Morden wrote: If they want Star League tech vs Clans tech Battle of Tukayyid would be great for this.
I love the Classic era most, but enjoyed quite a lot of the Clan era stuff and never got into the later stuff.
However if there are cool models,art and good gameplay it should sell whatever the era.
I have not yet got Alpha Strike - might have to get that as well.
I agree. Plus, imagine a player who is used to the Level 1 / IS tech from the normal starter set. They pick up the Advanced set to get the cool new mechs and then they're like "an ER PPC does WHAT now? Pulse lasers?! Ultra autocannons?!?! DOUBLE heat sinks!!!!"
Alpha Strike is frickin' awesome and I am super excited by this updated edition.
Back of the previewed box lists a "Punchboard of additional BattleMechs and terrain" as included in the box.
The Clan Invasion is "old" news at this point; I believe the current timeline for BattleTech stretches all the way into the 3100s now. There have been 3 big post-Clan Invasion events already: the Jihad, the found of the Republic of the Sphere, and a blackout of interstellar communications.
Really excited for these new designs; I do hope any print artifacts were cleaned off the prints before molding.
Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering Sword) is also the Art Director for the BattleTech line, which is quite exciting!
I would like the game to get away from hexboards, filling in dots, and clunky game mechanics. Alpha Strike was a huge step in the right direction, but the neckbeards and grognards all screamed bloody murder about "their game", and so Battletech limps on with game mechanics that haven't changed since 1984. And yeah, it's holding the game back.
X-Wing is so successful because it's pre-painted models, that require no prep. They also are painted well, which helps tremendously (see Star Trek Attack Wing for examples of poor paint jobs and shoddy assembly). Each ship can be modified and customized with extra crew/equipment/weapons cards. A game typically takes about an hour to play. Book keeping can get complicated, but not nearly as much as in Battletech. What I don't like about X-Wing is the movement sticks and proprietary dice, but that is intrinsic to the game mechanics themselves, and wouldn't be the same game without them.
Basically, Battletech is slow, and very, very granular in it's attention to detail, and it's competing against video games, board games, card games, and other table top games and it lacks everything that makes all those other genres successful. These starter sets contain nothing new (the same mechs from the 1980's), nothing innovative, and is basically the same as they were from the 1980's.
I'm really looking forward to the new edition of Alpha Strike.
Gitzbitah wrote: And that Manchu, is the Tabletop player's perspective. To this generation that probably had their first exposure from computer games- It'll probably be an Uziel or Madcat.
I remember I bought in with the starter with the little cardboard standees, and this bad boy on the cover
Spoiler:
So for me, the Atlas just screams Battletech, and I'm most familiar with those 24 3025 mechs than anything else. My brothers first experience was with Mechwarrior 2, and so they adored the Timberwolf.
Vatbirths.
.
Young punk! The Warhammer is the iconic mech dujour:
Tamwulf wrote: I would like the game to get away from hexboards, filling in dots, and clunky game mechanics. Alpha Strike was a huge step in the right direction, but the neckbeards and grognards all screamed bloody murder about "their game", and so Battletech limps on with game mechanics that haven't changed since 1984. And yeah, it's holding the game back.
It will never change - it's like the Advanced Squad Leader community, but with robots. It will always have a niche that will be catered to that buy everything that gets printed.
Meanwhile, Alpha Strike is awesome, development continues constantly thanks to an active community - and the best part is, the stats and points and everything are always free. You just need the rules and some robots (and terrain)
Soundtheory wrote: Back of the previewed box lists a "Punchboard of additional BattleMechs and terrain" as included in the box.
The Clan Invasion is "old" news at this point; I believe the current timeline for BattleTech stretches all the way into the 3100s now. There have been 3 big post-Clan Invasion events already: the Jihad, the found of the Republic of the Sphere, and a blackout of interstellar communications.
Really excited for these new designs; I do hope any print artifacts were cleaned off the prints before molding.
Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering Sword) is also the Art Director for the BattleTech line, which is quite exciting!
The biggest problem is the basic system for new players is also temporally linked/chained to the 3025-era. That creates problems when it comes to introducing new players to the universe, if the current timeline is in the 3100s, with all the additional tech bloat and sidegrades since then. In terms of story, it also shackles new players to essentially playing the 3rd and 4th SW era over and over again, and the unbalanced coverage of the factions in that era. If new players want to play in the "present" Battletech era, they suddenly have to learn a whole plethora of new stuff, or have their 3025-era stuff ripped to shreds. For new players, this creates a barrier to entry.
Boy, lots of opinions screaming, "Do what I like because that's the right way".
I'm just happy Battletech is relevant right now. I am looking for the best way to combine the new Battletech with a pencil and paper RPG. (I wonder if I can harness Starfinder rules for Battletech RPG?
I can't wait for this just like others. One thing I don't like is the bases. The hexes look awful. Non of the mechs are in the same position according to the base. Some are of the "front" of the mech is on a side of a base which I believe should be the case and then you have another mech on a different angle (could be the position or angle of the mini) and then you have one mech's whos "front" in on the point of the hex. I guess I am just so use to round bases now.
You would think after 30 years they would have come up with the technology for the mechs to "torso turn". I understand to save costs. Need to keep the starter set cheap for lots of people to come back (like me) and get new other people playing (hoping my gaming group).
Oh I didn't know about that alpha strike book, damn it catalyst your killing my wallet.
I get classic btech isn't for everyone there's a lot of charts and book keeping but it's a far deeper game than something like 40k where movement is largely meaningless.
I wanted to make a post, for those that are unfamiliar, but are interested, in Battletech, and the differences between Battletech: A Game of Armored Combat and Alpha Strike.
Battletech: A Game of Armored Combat is a hex-based wargame, where every unit ('mech, tank, helicopter, etc) has it's own record sheet. You keep track of damage to armor and internals, heat generated by weapons fire, ammunition expended, and critical hits etc, for each and every unit. This granularity as and always has been what Battletech is about. It is a very involved, crunchy, but rewarding tactical wargame in the truest sense of the definition. If you have been playing the Battletech computer game by Harebrained Schemes, you are familiar with this, as it is the core engine of the computer game. Provided here is a sample of a Mech record sheet for Battletech (the Masakari)
Spoiler:
Here is a game of Battletech being played, on a hex map (not my pic):
Spoiler:
Alpha Strike is a free-form miniatures game, which uses rulers and terrain and everything you'd expect. It's more "zoomed out", making it easier to play much larger engagements in a shorter timeframe. Each unit has it's own stat card, to keep track of it's damage output, movement, and damage at certain ranges. There is an order of magnitude less stat tracking for Alpha Strike. If you've played the old MechCommander computer games, this is closer to that level. Any miniatures game with "unit cards", such as Warmachine, would be a good analogy, with approximately the same amount of stats on the card and "damage" or hit points. Here is a sample of the same 'mech as above (the Masakari)
Spoiler:
Here is a game of Alpha Strike being played (not mine):
If the distribution is decent and the actual production minis work out the 3D printing kinks these prototypes have, I'd be inclined to actually pick these up. It's so refreshing to see actual Battletech minis that legitimately look good, and not jusy because of their source material designs.
I find it kind of funny/odd that they made the Battlemaster bigger than the Wolverine. I'm more familiar with the Dougram source material than Battletech, and in Dougram the Wolverine (Blockhead) is bigger than the Battlemaster (Big Foot).
Barzam wrote: If the distribution is decent and the actual production minis work out the 3D printing kinks these prototypes have,
This is like the fourth time this has been brought up - What do you mean? What would 3D printed prototype artifacts of a cad design have to do with plastics tooling?
Barzam wrote: If the distribution is decent and the actual production minis work out the 3D printing kinks these prototypes have, I'd be inclined to actually pick these up.
Do we really need like twenty posts with this caveat? Do people honestly think those are the final models ready for casting?
I'm getting really excited for this, but I also wish it was coming sooner so they don't miss out on the HBS Battletech swell. Didn't know about Alpha Strike either, might have to check that out and see if I can get anyone to play it.
Nah. I honestly couldn't care less about HG in this instance. Stolen is a strong word; license, borrowed, whatever is the correct term go with it. My point is really just that most of the early designs haven't really caught on and a lot of the early appeal comes from some use of far more iconic mechs from elsewhere. The game has tons of iconic mechs though and mechs in general. The game would really benefit from a relaunch that focused on iconic designs regardless of era.
Hey, I'm just saying, you never know what the quality of the final product will be like until you actually see the final product in hand. Just look at Mantic as an example. How many times now have they changed material, designs, and sculpts midqay through production now?
And going by Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering-Sword) DeviantArt Gallery there is no Catapult. What's in the box while it looks like a new sculpt may or may not be an updated design.
As an actual employee, he does not post all of his CGL owned work on his DeviantArt gallery.
To be fair, he's only been the BattleTech Art Director since late March, plus a link to his DeviantArt page with lineart for all of the 'mechs he's done so far is provided in the announcement of his promotion to Art Director.
This is timely indeed. In the last month I've started picking up models from Palladium's aborted Robotech game for the use in Battletech (perfect representations of the unseen) and now this! My only complaint would be that the wolverine is duplicated in both boxes but the griffin is not. Can't get all the models in the advanced box, and buying both only gets one new sculpt. Granted I still will, nothing wrong with duplicating a wolverine. It's just a weird choice to me.
Barzam wrote: If the distribution is decent and the actual production minis work out the 3D printing kinks these prototypes have,
This is like the fourth time this has been brought up - What do you mean? What would 3D printed prototype artifacts of a cad design have to do with plastics tooling?
I believe they ment that Catalyst doesn't make enough copies and it is only a one time maybe two time release and never make any more. So basically it's the die hards, people already in Battletech scoop them all up and then there is not enough for new people to be able to buy it.
It would be like GW making the 40K/AoS starter set with only 5000 copies and that is it. Once they are all gobbled no more are made and the only way to get into it would be buying books and separate minis. No box set savings to get into the hobby.
I really like the setting, well until the clan stuff went from silly to really silly, but I’m not sure I’d want to back to those. It was a bit of a book keeping fest and took a long time to play...
I really like the setting, well until the clan stuff went from silly to really silly, but I’m not sure I’d want to back to those. It was a bit of a book keeping fest and took a long time to play...
I believe so. While not 100% 80's rules it has been updated, but basically the same. While I haven't played in ages, when I did buy the book a few years ago to get back into Battletech (never did since nobody played) some things have changed, but it still plays the same. Same movement phase, same shooting phase etc. Mechs are still built the same. Just updated as the eyars went on.
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torgoch wrote: That’s the free form thing isn’t it? Was hoping that this would be hexes etc but with a more modern take on the core rules
What would be hexes? I believe they made rules for regular Battletech to be played without hexes as well. I can't remember if Alpha Strike can be played on hexes too.
Da-Rock wrote: Boy, lots of opinions screaming, "Do what I like because that's the right way".
I'm just happy Battletech is relevant right now. I am looking for the best way to combine the new Battletech with a pencil and paper RPG. (I wonder if I can harness Starfinder rules for Battletech RPG?
Use the RPG? It's called "A Time of War." Been out for a few years. Basically the fourth edition of the Battletech RPG.
Barzam wrote: If the distribution is decent and the actual production minis work out the 3D printing kinks these prototypes have,
This is like the fourth time this has been brought up - What do you mean? What would 3D printed prototype artifacts of a cad design have to do with plastics tooling?
Catalyst has a history of occasionally doing stupid things (like not keeping a starter in production for years for instance with no explanation). Other minis company play loose with the nomenclature of plastic in the popular vernacular so we don't automatically know what material or method they'll actually use. Please see the Confrontation kickstarter for some "bright" ideas about production for example. Plenty of companies now 3d print a master for mould production and that's at least what I was worried about with the (now clarified as outdated by you) prototype. Spartan Games 3d printed prototypes for large ships for example and never bothered cleaning them up either.
Look at it this way, for the past 40+ years Battletech starter set have been based on the early parts of the Battletech that timeline. Even a decades after the clans invasion the Box game had the plastic press form inner spheres mechs. I don't think they plan on rewriting the history of battletech, so the MadCat will be coming along at some point. Could they have done a clan starter set set in the same timeframe? Yes, then their advancing the time line would be about the conflict of who gets to invade the backwards precursor innersphere. Might have been an interesting take on things but they are playing it safe by walking in the footsteps of the old game. The political environment of the inner sphere states with recovered tech and the clan reconnaissance however gives much more room for people to do their own thing in the Battletech world.
Don't get me wrong, the succession war is cool, and I read that background etc. WAAAAAaaaaay before I actually started playing the game (mid 90's?), but to me the Madcat is Iconic. Personally I'd make a starter which utterly ignored time period, lobbed in an Atlas, Madcat, a model of the Bushwhacker that isn't repellent (Liked me some Mechwarrior 3) and anything that's been on a rulebook cover over the last 30 years. Then point out somewhere that this technically shouldn't all appear at exactly the same time, have fun, if you enjoy the game here's the eras.
But they haven't done that, and I wish them every success in what they have done!
Barzam wrote: If the distribution is decent and the actual production minis work out the 3D printing kinks these prototypes have, I'd be inclined to actually pick these up.
Do we really need like twenty posts with this caveat? Do people honestly think those are the final models ready for casting?
I'm getting really excited for this, but I also wish it was coming sooner so they don't miss out on the HBS Battletech swell. Didn't know about Alpha Strike either, might have to check that out and see if I can get anyone to play it.
To be fair CGL has done this before, meaning what they showed in prototypes is what made it to production... print lines and all. It is a plague with the license, before 3d printing, sculpts have had fingerprints in the castings. The last time they did a relaunch, the plastic models were horrible and smaller than the metal counterpart versions. Now that doesn't mean they all are horrible, but they haven't exactly been clean releases without these issues, which is why it is brought up often enough.
I'm still waiting on Alpha Strike Box Set that was announced, what feels like ages ago and can still pre-order, but has never come to fruition. The release date keeps getting pushed back and I am doubting I'll ever see it which was what I was waiting for jumping into Alpha Strike.
Look at it this way, for the past 40+ years Battletech starter set have been based on the early parts of the Battletech that timeline. Even a decades after the clans invasion the Box game had the plastic press form inner spheres mechs. I don't think they plan on rewriting the history of battletech, so the MadCat will be coming along at some point. Could they have done a clan starter set set in the same timeframe? Yes, then their advancing the time line would be about the conflict of who gets to invade the backwards precursor innersphere. Might have been an interesting take on things but they are playing it safe by walking in the footsteps of the old game. The political environment of the inner sphere states with recovered tech and the clan reconnaissance however gives much more room for people to do their own thing in the Battletech world.
Don't get me wrong, the succession war is cool, and I read that background etc. WAAAAAaaaaay before I actually started playing the game (mid 90's?), but to me the Madcat is Iconic. Personally I'd make a starter which utterly ignored time period, lobbed in an Atlas, Madcat, a model of the Bushwhacker that isn't repellent (Liked me some Mechwarrior 3) and anything that's been on a rulebook cover over the last 30 years. Then point out somewhere that this technically shouldn't all appear at exactly the same time, have fun, if you enjoy the game here's the eras.
But they haven't done that, and I wish them every success in what they have done!
Well, ironwind metels still makes mechs so just pick up the rules and the mechs you want and have at it. Funny you should mention the Bushwacker, I have a single Ral Partha Bushwacker that is slightly different than the Ironwind versions and I definitely prefer the old sculpt. I haven't played any Battletech in over a.decade but reading this thread is making me think I should break out the miniatures. Anybody know of an IOS based mechbuilder app?
Insurgency Walker wrote: I haven't played any Battletech in over a.decade but reading this thread is making me think I should break out the miniatures. Anybody know of an IOS based mechbuilder app?
Be careful there. By that I mean about making your own games. From what I gather, and I haven't started Battletech again because of this is it seems most people don't like playing against custom mechs. If you want a game, it's basically like 40K, and you have to use the "official" mechs. If you don't use a stock mech then you HAVE to use one of the variants.
To me part of the greatness of Battletech is making your own mechs/units. Not being able to take the magic away for me.
So I am not sure if you need a mech builder app to make a lance or to make actual mechs. I have looked and couldn't find one for either lance or mech building. Will be good to find one. I will buy the box set of course but the problem with Battletech is I don't care for the art work of old so that is why I left. Needing to go "official" I just couldn't get into mechs. Now of course I will buy the box set, but if I don't like the art work then I don't think I will be continuing. Just like how I hated Age of Sigmar and beginning of 7th edition 40K. The art style was horrible in my opinion. Here is hoping they come with a pleasant art style this edition.
To be fair CGL has done this before, meaning what they showed in prototypes is what made it to production... print lines and all. It is a plague with the license, before 3d printing, sculpts have had fingerprints in the castings.
Yikes.. I was basing my trepidation based on what I consider stupid things other companies have done (like my Spartan Games example) with 3d prints but wasn't aware that they had a direct history of doing similar things themselves. That definitely cements it to the wait and see real world copies side of things for me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I imagine it would work anywhere, but look for Solaris Skunk Works.
It's a really good 'Mech builder.
Thanks, I used I think Mechworks in the past. Even when not making custom mechs it's nice to be able to print out a sheet, though we used to put them in plastic sleeves and track damage with a dry erase marker back in the day.
Insurgency Walker wrote: I haven't played any Battletech in over a.decade but reading this thread is making me think I should break out the miniatures. Anybody know of an IOS based mechbuilder app?
Be careful there. By that I mean about making your own games. From what I gather, and I haven't started Battletech again because of this is it seems most people don't like playing against custom mechs. If you want a game, it's basically like 40K, and you have to use the "official" mechs. If you don't use a stock mech then you HAVE to use one of the variants.
To me part of the greatness of Battletech is making your own mechs/units. Not being able to take the magic away for me.
So I am not sure if you need a mech builder app to make a lance or to make actual mechs. I have looked and couldn't find one for either lance or mech building. Will be good to find one. I will buy the box set of course but the problem with Battletech is I don't care for the art work of old so that is why I left. Needing to go "official" I just couldn't get into mechs. Now of course I will buy the box set, but if I don't like the art work then I don't think I will be continuing. Just like how I hated Age of Sigmar and beginning of 7th edition 40K. The art style was horrible in my opinion. Here is hoping they come with a pleasant art style this edition.
Been a long time since I played randoms, but it usually wasn't a problem to have some modifications or custom mechs. I typically modified the mini so there wasn't a lot of confusion. It was really about picking a tech level or weather or not clan tech, or clans would be used. The last 20 years has definitely seen some tech/power creep I stopped playing about the time the mini and mega mechs were making their debut. Elementals out side of clan? Heretical!
And a fairly comprehensive list of units, sorted by era, with their Alpha Strike game sheet. http://www.masterunitlist.info/
As far as minis go, they've released quite a few lance packs, which come with 4 plastic minis, and 8 Alpha Strike cards for them. they retail for 20, so finding them for 15 or lower should be pretty straightforward- like searching 'battletech lance' on Amazon.
One of the wonderful things about Battletech is that the older miniatures (3025 or so) have the most flexibility- there are variants with technology appropriate for Clan era, Jihad, and in some cases, even Republic. So pick something that looks cool, until you decide which House or faction to devote your collection to.
On a scale of "minor heresy" to "HERESY! Purge them!", how much of a bad person would I be if I used some of my old Reaper CAV models to supplement what I would get in the new starter boxes?
Gitzbitah wrote: As far as minis go, they've released quite a few lance packs, which come with 4 plastic minis, and 8 Alpha Strike cards for them. they retail for 20, so finding them for 15 or lower should be pretty straightforward- like searching 'battletech lance' on Amazon.
They're out of print sadly, and will, over time, become increasingly hard to find.
To be fair CGL has done this before, meaning what they showed in prototypes is what made it to production... print lines and all. It is a plague with the license, before 3d printing, sculpts have had fingerprints in the castings.
Yikes.. I was basing my trepidation based on what I consider stupid things other companies have done (like my Spartan Games example) with 3d prints but wasn't aware that they had a direct history of doing similar things themselves. That definitely cements it to the wait and see real world copies side of things for me.
I'm totally unaware of this. CGL doesn't really manufacture miniatures.* Iron Wind Metals makes metal minis for Battletech (with varying levels of quality).
* = while CGL doesn't make miniatures, they do contract some companies to make plastics - Leviathans for example, and the 2009 Battletech box set, which did have terrible plastic models (like crappy pvc) and the later 2014 re-release, which had fantastic plastic models. Catalyst was rightly berated for those terrible 2009 plastic mechs which is why the later re-release, as well as subsequent Lance packs, used a different company. This link from 2014 actually shows the comparison from the 2009 mechs versus the re-release and lance pack plastic mechs - https://bg.battletech.com/uncategorized/introductory-box-set-available-for-preorder-and-for-a-short-time-a-cool-deal/
I want to clarify for anyone reading this - the new Battletech mechs will be plastic, tooled from 3d sculpts. Those 3d prints are not indicative of the final plastics. This is much like GW does - design models on the computer, do 3d prints to check fit and for prototyping, but then use the computer designs for factory tooling. (there are actually painted images on GW site of 3d printed models - some you can actually see their 3d printed lines as well). These are not like Spartan Games, etc, models, which are computer designed, 3d printed, and then rubber molds made from the 3d prints to cast in metal or resin.
Gitzbitah wrote: As far as minis go, they've released quite a few lance packs, which come with 4 plastic minis, and 8 Alpha Strike cards for them. they retail for 20, so finding them for 15 or lower should be pretty straightforward- like searching 'battletech lance' on Amazon.
They're out of print sadly, and will, over time, become increasingly hard to find.
CGL sells them in their online store for $14.99 per pack. They are also available from Atomic Empire and Miniature Market.
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rabidaskal wrote: Thank you judgedoug for that Btech vs Alpha Strike comparison, i wasnt aware.
So the best way to start Alpha Strike would be to buy the new starters, and the 2nd ed book coming out? Would that be right? TIA!
The stats for every mech ever can be downloaded for free at www.masterunitlist.info - just search for a 'mech and the Alpha Strike reference card is dynamically generated from MUL's database. NOTE that the Master Unit List has been updated for the 2018 edition.
As for mechs themselves, sure, get the new Battletech sets if you want the sweet redesigns. You can also get the Alpha Strike Lance packs, which each contain 4 mechs, for $14.99 MSRP from Catalyst Game Labs online store, Atomic Empire, Miniature Market, Amazon, ebay, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: The sculpt is so much of an improvement it is functionally a redesign.
The feet look more like the MWO version but the nose is pointed like the CBT version. So this seems like a hybrid.
Yep. Alex Iglesias does the MWO designs and Anthony Scroggins does the Battletech designs. So yeah, while they are not the same, they share similar design aesthetics. For someone like me, with 3d prints of the MWO mechs, I'll happily incorporate these in. I mean, a Catapult is a Catapult but one could have been produced from a factory and one from a different factory, a hundred years apart, so using slightly different pieces. Most of it's the same, but lots of differences anyway, like, say, King Tiger production unit 1 versus King Tiger production unit 492
Tannhauser42 wrote: On a scale of "minor heresy" to "HERESY! Purge them!", how much of a bad person would I be if I used some of my old Reaper CAV models to supplement what I would get in the new starter boxes?
Not even a little. I backed the CAV 1 Kickstarter for that exact purpose, and I'm a freaking Demo Agent.
If you bring them to a tournament setting they are obviously going to be a proxy, but for your own games? Design and go nuts.
Dark Severance wrote: The last time they did a relaunch, the plastic models were horrible and smaller than the metal counterpart versions. Now that doesn't mean they all are horrible, but they haven't exactly been clean releases without these issues, which is why it is brought up often enough.
Yeah, the 2009 release of Battletech was terrible - they never quite got over the negative PR, despite switching to a new company entirely for the plastics for the 30th anniversary reprint of the box, and all the Lance Packs. Most people saw the 2009 plastics, went "blech!" and then stopped paying attention, missing out on the news of the rerelease and subsequent new plastic models (which are, imho, superior to the metal models from IWM! they're cleaner and sharper and loads more durable)
Grasshopper and Zeus from the 2014-2017 plastics range
Spoiler:
Dark Severance wrote: I'm still waiting on Alpha Strike Box Set that was announced, what feels like ages ago and can still pre-order, but has never come to fruition. The release date keeps getting pushed back and I am doubting I'll ever see it which was what I was waiting for jumping into Alpha Strike.
I agree totally; I've been waiting for an Alpha Strike box set too. I'm personally of the opinion that Alpha Strike should be CGL's main market focus, with traditional Battletech being more of a "specialist" kind of game. But I unfortunately don't control CGL business decisions
Cannibal wrote:They should just retcon battlemechs to utilize zimmerit. Line problem solved!
I don't get this. Can you please explain. What is a zimmerit?
rabidaskal wrote:Thank you judgedoug for that Btech vs Alpha Strike comparison, i wasnt aware.
So the best way to start Alpha Strike would be to buy the new starters, and the 2nd ed book coming out? Would that be right? TIA!
I know this was already answered but so people know, to get into Battletech or Alpha Strike it's all free. For Battletech I believe unless this has changed you get the 1980's rules for free. By that I mean the basic 2049 era rules and mech. You can also print out paper pic of the mechs as well. I can't really comment on Alpha Strike so not sure how the free rules for that, but anyone wanting to get into Battletech don't need to wait you can start now and see if it's your thing.
Cannibal wrote:They should just retcon battlemechs to utilize zimmerit. Line problem solved!
I don't get this. Can you please explain. What is a zimmerit?
Zimmerit was an anti-magnetic paste the Germans in WW2 put on their tanks as the Soviets used magnetic anti-tank charges! So the joke is that fingerprints or 3d printing lies on a model could just be Zimmerit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerit
Gitzbitah wrote: As far as minis go, they've released quite a few lance packs, which come with 4 plastic minis, and 8 Alpha Strike cards for them. they retail for 20, so finding them for 15 or lower should be pretty straightforward- like searching 'battletech lance' on Amazon.
They're out of print sadly, and will, over time, become increasingly hard to find.
Are they already out of print? I thought they just came out a few years ago...
I'm talking about these lance packs-
Spoiler:
Not the older Iron Wind Metals ones, like this
Spoiler:
Yeah, the Ironwind Metals ones are great, but not what I'd recommend to a new player. Although they do make some great Word of Blake Omni packs....
Aries games posted this on the 24th of last month:
All,
I do not have good news. After our most recent restock order with our distributor, I have been told that the Alpha Strike Lance Packs are out of print.
As shocked as I was to hear this, I asked them to confirm, and they did. The news is real...and it is actually really old too. They went out of print 4 years ago. All retailers, even myself, have been selling what is left in their stock.
After the confirmation, I reached out to Loren Coleman of Catalyst, who also confirmed their fate. They are gone. No more will be made. There are no plans currently or anytime in the near future to replace them with any new lance packs. THIS IS IT FOLKS.
At this time, my distributor is completely out of the Assault Lance Packs for Catalyst Alpha Strike Lance Packs. They are trying to acquire what they can, as I asked them to please do their best & I will buy them all...but only so much can be done.
A couple other distributors I do not have access to, such as Alliance who will only sell to physical retail locations, still has some left. Once those are gone...that's it folks...they are gone for good.
Catalyst has posted what cardstock punch-out terrain sheets in each box will look like.
In addition to the 2 plastic mechs in the Battletech Beginner Box, you'll get
- two four-Mech lances so you can quickly play a larger game
- along with some modular double-sided terrain hexes to modify your map board
or, In addition to the 8 plastic mechs included in the Battletech A Game of Armored Combat box set, you'll also get
- a set of 9 mechs as cardstock standees, in a generic paint scheme,
- lots of modular double-sides terrain for the included hex maps to modify and add hills and forests and whatnot to your games.
Cannibal wrote:They should just retcon battlemechs to utilize zimmerit. Line problem solved!
I don't get this. Can you please explain. What is a zimmerit?
Zimmerit was an anti-magnetic paste the Germans in WW2 put on their tanks as the Soviets used magnetic anti-tank charges! So the joke is that fingerprints or 3d printing lies on a model could just be Zimmerit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerit
Thank you for the explanation. Our Canadian school system basically ignores history so for many of us Canadians we are dumb as a skunk when it comes to history.
Gitzbitah wrote: Wow, thanks HBMC! I'll have to move those up on my buylist while they're still there.
Yeah, not so much that it was NEWS that they went out of print - most people didn't realize that Catalyst did a single print run of the eight Lance packs (something like 10,000 of each). Thankfully still a ton on the market.
Tamwulf wrote: I would like the game to get away from hexboards, filling in dots, and clunky game mechanics. Alpha Strike was a huge step in the right direction, but the neckbeards and grognards all screamed bloody murder about "their game", and so Battletech limps on with game mechanics that haven't changed since 1984.
FWIW, my local battletech grognards picked up on it with a passion. YMMV obviously. Alpha Strike for me was a bit too simplified as I'm not a fan of combining all the various weapons into a single stat for each range bracket. I would have preferred "groups" of linked weapons instead personally.
Tamwulf wrote: I would like the game to get away from hexboards, filling in dots, and clunky game mechanics. Alpha Strike was a huge step in the right direction, but the neckbeards and grognards all screamed bloody murder about "their game", and so Battletech limps on with game mechanics that haven't changed since 1984. And yeah, it's holding the game back.
X-Wing is so successful because it's pre-painted models, that require no prep. They also are painted well, which helps tremendously (see Star Trek Attack Wing for examples of poor paint jobs and shoddy assembly). Each ship can be modified and customized with extra crew/equipment/weapons cards. A game typically takes about an hour to play. Book keeping can get complicated, but not nearly as much as in Battletech. What I don't like about X-Wing is the movement sticks and proprietary dice, but that is intrinsic to the game mechanics themselves, and wouldn't be the same game without them.
Basically, Battletech is slow, and very, very granular in it's attention to detail, and it's competing against video games, board games, card games, and other table top games and it lacks everything that makes all those other genres successful. These starter sets contain nothing new (the same mechs from the 1980's), nothing innovative, and is basically the same as they were from the 1980's.
I'm really looking forward to the new edition of Alpha Strike.
those grognards are basicly all thats left. sadly I think the problems with battletech are much worse even then the game system. I think a biiiig part of the problem is the folks running it are more intreasted in "telling a story" then "making a game" it's what drove me out of the game TBH. when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" it's funny when I was young I used to roll my eyes at the "crotchtery 3025 guys" but I've become one as I get older
BrianDavion wrote: ... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...
Why?
My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.
But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.
BrianDavion wrote: ... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...
Why?
My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.
But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.
I think it was an internal directive to make things less binary IS vs. Clans. Also I think there had been a realization that having one behemoth FedCom overshadowing all the other IS factions was not a good thing, and therefore part of the brief was to bring the FedCom down and restore the strength and prominence of all the other Houses, particularly House Liao. No House could have been allowed to win the Succession Wars. The whole tragedy was the Star League fell and the Succession Wars were unwinnable as no House had the means to outright conquer the others. The FedCom threatened to upset that and I think belatedly they had realized they had played favorites too much with House Davion, so had to roll back some of the gains.
Now perhaps the method or timing could have been different, but if you had been a writer in that position and that was your instruction, what else would you have done?
The problem IMO was the speed at which everything was done and how it seemingly always went back to some leader suddenly holding the stupid ball or becoming blacker than black hat (Caleb Davion). However if it had been a slow decline, no doubt there would have been people complaining about that too.
Iracundus wrote: I think it was an internal directive to make things less binary IS vs. Clans. Also I think there had been a realization that having one behemoth FedCom overshadowing all the other IS factions was not a good thing, and therefore part of the brief was to bring the FedCom down and restore the strength and prominence of all the other Houses, particularly House Liao. No House could have been allowed to win the Succession Wars. The whole tragedy was the Star League fell and the Succession Wars were unwinnable as no House had the means to outright conquer the others. The FedCom threatened to upset that and I think belatedly they had realized they had played favorites too much with House Davion, so had to roll back some of the gains.
I know why it happened, and I'm not disputing that. My point was that the story in BTech always changes, and the idea that it can be ruined by these changes to the point where you can't play it the way you want to play make no sense as you can set your games whenever. What I wanted for BTech (FedCom Realm Eternal, endless fightback against the Clans) didn't come to pass, but I didn't throw my hands up in the air and go "Well now it's ruined!".
There are tons of players out there who still can't accept the Clans, to live a life of perpetual 4th Succession Wars. It's short-sighted and lacks a certain amount of imagination, but it's not the "wrong way" to approach BattleTech.
I get that when the invasion hit clans were op, but the latest points system really works well the timberwolf is 6k points which is more expensive than some is assault mechs.
No mech ever becomes outdated they are just cheaper than newer stuff, you take two to three times the number of mechs by using 3025 stuff against 3075, you hit less hard but your firing more often it balances out.
No love for Mechwarrior: Dark Age (MWDA), eh? I'm not surprised. There were things about the clix game I liked (the idea of the damage dials and pre-painted minis), but the game had its share of flaws.
Alpha Strike looks a little too streamlined for my tastes, and classic BT is a bit too cumbersome. I wish they'd make a ruleset that has about the level of detail of MWDA, so I can get some use out of those old mechs.
However, I do love the return of those unseen and wouldn't mind getting my hands on the starter set for just the minis. Any chance they'll be sold separately from the starter sets for those of us who just want the minis?
I love Battletech but the plastics have been a constant disappointment to me. I would love to play it other than as a PC game. I even have a limited edition signed copy of the most recent and unplayable pen and paper RPG. I have hopes for this, but very very very tempered ones.
rabidaskal wrote: Thanks Gitzbitah / judgedoug / Davor! Checking out the quickstart rules now, will try a few games with some old Mechwarrior clix models for now
You're welcome dude! It's definitely, imho, the best company-to-battalion level giant robot game on the market. If you decide to get Battletech figs (like the cheap Alpha Strike Lance packs), may I suggest Game Craft Miniatures for terrain - they have tons of cheap Battletech scale terrain and often run sales. I've bought a ton of their 1/285 scale city buildings!
warboss wrote: FWIW, my local battletech grognards picked up on it with a passion. YMMV obviously. Alpha Strike for me was a bit too simplified as I'm not a fan of combining all the various weapons into a single stat for each range bracket. I would have preferred "groups" of linked weapons instead personally.
That kind of exists. You should check it out again. Autocannons and LRMs are separate damage brackets, as they can use different ammunitions, for instance.
For example, the trusty old AS7-D Atlas, which has the built-in damage brackers as S/M/L range, plus the additional AC and LRM damage brackets, as well as Indirect Fire (due to those LRMs), as well as Rear-mounted weapon damage brackets.
warboss wrote: FWIW, my local battletech grognards picked up on it with a passion. YMMV obviously. Alpha Strike for me was a bit too simplified as I'm not a fan of combining all the various weapons into a single stat for each range bracket. I would have preferred "groups" of linked weapons instead personally.
That kind of exists. You should check it out again. Autocannons and LRMs are separate damage brackets, as they can use different ammunitions, for instance.
For example, the trusty old AS7-D Atlas, which has the built-in damage brackers as S/M/L range, plus the additional AC and LRM damage brackets, as well as Indirect Fire (due to those LRMs), as well as Rear-mounted weapon damage brackets.
Thanks! I'll pm you later tonight with a few questions so as not to derail the thread with Alpha Strike rules minutia.
However, I do love the return of those unseen and wouldn't mind getting my hands on the starter set for just the minis. Any chance they'll be sold separately from the starter sets for those of us who just want the minis?
Apparently, there are no plans to release them separately. No big deal, I just consider that I get a free set of maps, rules, standees and cards with every box of minis purchased.
As far as Alpha Strike goes, I remember buying the rules pretty shortly after they came out. Read them and thought "Well, this doesn't seem like it represents Battletech properly at all". Fast forward a few years and I finally get around to playing it, I was pleasantly surprised as to how well it felt like the mechs were performing as they should do. My Warhammer felt like a Warhammer, my Locust felt like a Locust.
Since then, I've played far more Alpha Strike than Battletech.
BrianDavion wrote: ... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...
Why?
My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.
But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.
Because once you reach a point yeah you might as well just ignore everything thats happening, this is a troubling trend for a game that tends more to produce lore supplements then rules. If you wanna sell your war game based on the writing and the setting, don't wreck the setting with bad writing. Heck, you mention the FedCom civil war. I'll use that as a GREAT example of AWEFUL writing. They set up a conflict between "Nice Guy Victor" and "Most transparently mustache twirling black hat villian since Stefhen Amaris Katherine" utterly IGNORE the fedsuns laws of sucession. and then try to make it a grey conflict? umm WTF? it was just crap writing.
BrianDavion wrote: ... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...
Why?
My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.
But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.
Because once you reach a point yeah you might as well just ignore everything thats happening, this is a troubling trend for a game that tends more to produce lore supplements then rules. If you wanna sell your war game based on the writing and the setting, don't wreck the setting with bad writing. Heck, you mention the FedCom civil war. I'll use that as a GREAT example of AWEFUL writing. They set up a conflict between "Nice Guy Victor" and "Most transparently mustache twirling black hat villian since Stefhen Amaris Katherine" utterly IGNORE the fedsuns laws of sucession. and then try to make it a grey conflict? umm WTF? it was just crap writing.
I guess it is subjective. I liked it.
And I find that to be one of the most beautiful things about BattleTech. The setting is so big and detailed, that there is at least one interesting time period for everyone.
BrianDavion wrote: ... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...
Why?
My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.
But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.
Because once you reach a point yeah you might as well just ignore everything thats happening, this is a troubling trend for a game that tends more to produce lore supplements then rules. If you wanna sell your war game based on the writing and the setting, don't wreck the setting with bad writing. Heck, you mention the FedCom civil war. I'll use that as a GREAT example of AWEFUL writing. They set up a conflict between "Nice Guy Victor" and "Most transparently mustache twirling black hat villian since Stefhen Amaris Katherine" utterly IGNORE the fedsuns laws of sucession. and then try to make it a grey conflict? umm WTF? it was just crap writing.
I agree with the problem of going full black hat with Katherine. Although the novels revealed her secret actions, at first it seemed to be setting up a more nuanced thing with the Lyran side viewing Victor as a warmonger playing soldier all the time while neglecting the domestic and economic side, and who supposedly leaned too Davion and ran roughshod over Lyran sensibilities. Somehow that intent and portrayal seemed to go out the window unfortunately, particularly with the PC games, with portrayals of the Steiner side going either full Nazi as in the PC games or being stubborn tradition bound dupes. Once more the Davion side got portrayed as the righteous heroes. I am not saying Katherine was morally good in any sense but in order to explain why she got enough support to even generate a civil war, I think more focus should have been on the grievances of the rest of Lyran society against perceived Davion arrogance and carpetbaggers.
Problem was then later in the timeline we got Caleb Davion who got the blacker than black hat role, and Daoshen Liao who also seems like a black hat retread of Max Liao. I wish the situation would stop swinging from black hat and white hat and have more mixed representations of the various rulers. Even if the meta-plot goal is to weaken a faction, this can be done without making their ruler a stereotypical moustache twirling villain.
BrianDavion wrote: ... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...
Why?
My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.
But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.
Because once you reach a point yeah you might as well just ignore everything thats happening, this is a troubling trend for a game that tends more to produce lore supplements then rules. If you wanna sell your war game based on the writing and the setting, don't wreck the setting with bad writing. Heck, you mention the FedCom civil war. I'll use that as a GREAT example of AWEFUL writing. They set up a conflict between "Nice Guy Victor" and "Most transparently mustache twirling black hat villian since Stefhen Amaris Katherine" utterly IGNORE the fedsuns laws of sucession. and then try to make it a grey conflict? umm WTF? it was just crap writing.
I agree with the problem of going full black hat with Katherine. Although the novels revealed her secret actions, at first it seemed to be setting up a more nuanced thing with the Lyran side viewing Victor as a warmonger playing soldier all the time while neglecting the domestic and economic side, and who supposedly leaned too Davion and ran roughshod over Lyran sensibilities. Somehow that intent and portrayal seemed to go out the window unfortunately, particularly with the PC games, with portrayals of the Steiner side going either full Nazi as in the PC games or being stubborn tradition bound dupes. Once more the Davion side got portrayed as the righteous heroes. I am not saying Katherine was morally good in any sense but in order to explain why she got enough support to even generate a civil war, I think more focus should have been on the grievances of the rest of Lyran society against perceived Davion arrogance and carpetbaggers.
Problem was then later in the timeline we got Caleb Davion who got the blacker than black hat role, and Daoshen Liao who also seems like a black hat retread of Max Liao. I wish the situation would stop swinging from black hat and white hat and have more mixed representations of the various rulers. Even if the meta-plot goal is to weaken a faction, this can be done without making their ruler a stereotypical moustache twirling villain.
well the problem is the FCCW WASN'T "Davion vs Steiner" and Katherine had a lot of support within the federated suns, but it's really hard to fathom WHY. she didn't have a very strong legal position (ammend that she didn't have ANY legal position) and if she had proven a skilled and effective ruler that might hhave been one thing,m but she basicly took over the FS and became a petty tyrant. it just made no sense.
Heck even the whole "Lyrans hate victor" thing made little sense once you looked at the facts, by 3057 he'd been MOSTLY ruling from Tharkad, and a "warrior king" was hardly anything new to the Lyrans
Tamwulf wrote: I would like the game to get away from hexboards, filling in dots, and clunky game mechanics. Alpha Strike was a huge step in the right direction, but the neckbeards and grognards all screamed bloody murder about "their game", and so Battletech limps on with game mechanics that haven't changed since 1984. And yeah, it's holding the game back.
X-Wing is so successful because it's pre-painted models, that require no prep. They also are painted well, which helps tremendously (see Star Trek Attack Wing for examples of poor paint jobs and shoddy assembly). Each ship can be modified and customized with extra crew/equipment/weapons cards. A game typically takes about an hour to play. Book keeping can get complicated, but not nearly as much as in Battletech. What I don't like about X-Wing is the movement sticks and proprietary dice, but that is intrinsic to the game mechanics themselves, and wouldn't be the same game without them.
Basically, Battletech is slow, and very, very granular in it's attention to detail, and it's competing against video games, board games, card games, and other table top games and it lacks everything that makes all those other genres successful. These starter sets contain nothing new (the same mechs from the 1980's), nothing innovative, and is basically the same as they were from the 1980's.
I'm really looking forward to the new edition of Alpha Strike.
Ah so let's remove all variety from games. No room for other tastes. All much bow to same standard! Nevermind those of us who actually LIKE detailed game. They must be thrown away! No room for shock horror multiple style of games!
it's frustrating to have to tell people 'this would be a good one the get but.....'
I'll be getting at least one of each set just for the Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering Sword) Mech redesigns.
Point of order real quick. Shimmering Sword's mech redesigns are fantastic to be sure, but these redesigns are actually the handiwork of Alexander Iglesias, A.K.A. FlyingDebris. He works as one of the lead artist for Piranha Games Inc. who produce Mechwarrior Online. His redesigns are amazing, and he's been churning them out like crazy for several years now.
Ah so let's remove all variety from games. No room for other tastes. All much bow to same standard! Nevermind those of us who actually LIKE detailed game. They must be thrown away! No room for shock horror multiple style of games!
There are things that age well and things that don't, that's just a fact of any industry. You wouldn't release the original Sid Meyer's Civilization and then cover your ears and yell at the people who want something less pixelated and clunky.
I mean I'm not fully versed in the history of the game but has there ever been any sort of revamp or reevaluation of the game?
I've got a copy of the "Technical Readout 1945" book they did a few years ago. In that, the vehicles and weapons have traits and quirks listed. Is that a general thing now? It was always a little disappointing that various vehicles and equipment got descriptions about how some were more prone to jams than other models, or were easier to pilot, but the rules took no notice of anything like that.
BrianDavion wrote: ... when every new sourcebook MASSIVLY changes the setting it's hard to "do your thing" ...
Why?
My fav part of the BTech timeline is 3058 with the counter-attack against Clan Smoke Jaguar (Operation Bid Dog/Bulldog). Given the choice the Federated Commonwealth would be an eternal kingdom and we would forever be pushing back the clans. But that didn't happen. The bitch ripped my fav faction in two, the leader of my fav nation got removed from power in an underhanded manner, there was a massive civil war and not long after that the Wobbies got nuke-happy.
But that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. I can still play games set during that period. The fact that the plot has moved into the 3150's never takes that away.
Because once you reach a point yeah you might as well just ignore everything thats happening, this is a troubling trend for a game that tends more to produce lore supplements then rules. If you wanna sell your war game based on the writing and the setting, don't wreck the setting with bad writing. Heck, you mention the FedCom civil war. I'll use that as a GREAT example of AWEFUL writing. They set up a conflict between "Nice Guy Victor" and "Most transparently mustache twirling black hat villian since Stefhen Amaris Katherine" utterly IGNORE the fedsuns laws of sucession. and then try to make it a grey conflict? umm WTF? it was just crap writing.
I agree with the problem of going full black hat with Katherine. Although the novels revealed her secret actions, at first it seemed to be setting up a more nuanced thing with the Lyran side viewing Victor as a warmonger playing soldier all the time while neglecting the domestic and economic side, and who supposedly leaned too Davion and ran roughshod over Lyran sensibilities. Somehow that intent and portrayal seemed to go out the window unfortunately, particularly with the PC games, with portrayals of the Steiner side going either full Nazi as in the PC games or being stubborn tradition bound dupes. Once more the Davion side got portrayed as the righteous heroes. I am not saying Katherine was morally good in any sense but in order to explain why she got enough support to even generate a civil war, I think more focus should have been on the grievances of the rest of Lyran society against perceived Davion arrogance and carpetbaggers.
Problem was then later in the timeline we got Caleb Davion who got the blacker than black hat role, and Daoshen Liao who also seems like a black hat retread of Max Liao. I wish the situation would stop swinging from black hat and white hat and have more mixed representations of the various rulers. Even if the meta-plot goal is to weaken a faction, this can be done without making their ruler a stereotypical moustache twirling villain.
well the problem is the FCCW WASN'T "Davion vs Steiner" and Katherine had a lot of support within the federated suns, but it's really hard to fathom WHY. she didn't have a very strong legal position (ammend that she didn't have ANY legal position) and if she had proven a skilled and effective ruler that might hhave been one thing,m but she basicly took over the FS and became a petty tyrant. it just made no sense.
Heck even the whole "Lyrans hate victor" thing made little sense once you looked at the facts, by 3057 he'd been MOSTLY ruling from Tharkad, and a "warrior king" was hardly anything new to the Lyrans
The novels seemed to show that despite being physically in Tharkad, he was making PR errors in seemingly being biased in being too pro-Davion, which didn't go over well with the Lyrans. The FedCom had improved the Lyrans' military but the theme seemed to be that there was an undercurrent of resentment over these arrogant Fedsun people coming over and upending tradition and telling everyone what to do. I guess an analogy would be that antipathy towards the "ugly American" stereotype.
I know it is post hoc hand waving, but I guess Katherine could be made out to be a political chameleon, presenting whatever the audience wants to see. To the Lyrans who took the brunt of the Clan invasion into FedCom space, she is a Steiner standing up for traditional Steiner virtues, tending to the economy instead of playing soldier like Victor, and standing up to the arrogant FedSuns carpetbagger warmongers running around telling them what to do. To the Davions, she maybe presented again as a domestic focused figure against an absentee king, commiserating with the resentful dirt-poor Davion population about having to send all their resources and troops over to aid those bumbling plutocratic Lyrans and their incompetent social generals.
Ah so let's remove all variety from games. No room for other tastes. All much bow to same standard! Nevermind those of us who actually LIKE detailed game. They must be thrown away! No room for shock horror multiple style of games!
There are things that age well and things that don't, that's just a fact of any industry. You wouldn't release the original Sid Meyer's Civilization and then cover your ears and yell at the people who want something less pixelated and clunky.
I mean I'm not fully versed in the history of the game but has there ever been any sort of revamp or reevaluation of the game?
Of course! They call it Alpha Strike. It's fast paced, large scale, and much more modern miniatures game. Now you too can pit company against company, leading huge forces to victory in a night, rather than several months.
The great thing about Battletech is you can go as detailed as you like.
Alpha Strike, these are mechs, they do this much at short medium and long and have 3 or 4 special rules each. Standard size- 12 vs 12.
Battletech, these are mechs, you can do whatever you want with them within tonnage limits according to our build rules. Punch, kick, jump on that guy's head, plot out where each of your 12 machine guns hits that guy and see if you really have what it takes to cackle maniacally for 5 minutes of dice chucking (thanks, Piranha) Bring your 100 ton assault mech, and inexplicably lose it because that Locust somehow shot you in the ammo bin, or the head and your doofus pilot forgot to buckle up.
And it's split into 3 tech levels, Introductory, Level 2, and level 3- the weird stuff. Er Pulse X lasers? PPC capacitators? Anti laser armor, 10 ton mini mechs, 200 ton uber mechs, 5 ton uber elementals? If there's a rule they'll break it. You can even field a drone army.
Standard size- 4 vs 4 mechs.
You can even go more detailed- http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Design_Quirks For when the record sheet isn't enough, and you need to attack using your- Additional notes.
There's Solaris 7 too, which I've never dealt with- as I understand it it's a duelist division. 1 vs 1 mech combat, with an emphasis on physical combat and some very striking designs.
Ah so let's remove all variety from games. No room for other tastes. All much bow to same standard! Nevermind those of us who actually LIKE detailed game. They must be thrown away! No room for shock horror multiple style of games!
There are things that age well and things that don't, that's just a fact of any industry. You wouldn't release the original Sid Meyer's Civilization and then cover your ears and yell at the people who want something less pixelated and clunky.
I mean I'm not fully versed in the history of the game but has there ever been any sort of revamp or reevaluation of the game?
You want faster mass mech game there's already one. Why you would want to make SECOND copy of less detailed game? What's wrong with having detailed game AND less detailed game that works better with dozen+ mechs?
What would that archieve? And why every gamer should be forced to play same game? Why cant' there be fast paced game for those who prefer it and detailed game for those who prefer it? Or for those shock horror wants to mix it up.
Point of order real quick. Shimmering Sword's mech redesigns are fantastic to be sure, but these redesigns are actually the handiwork of Alexander Iglesias, A.K.A. FlyingDebris. He works as one of the lead artist for Piranha Games Inc. who produce Mechwarrior Online. His redesigns are amazing, and he's been churning them out like crazy for several years now.
Personal favorites include the Atlas:
Spoiler:
My al time favorite 'mech, The Highlander
Another personal favorite, the Black Knight:
And his amazing redesign of the Marauder:
Check out his redesigns. I love 'em all.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Those are nice! Other than the MadCat (was that the one on the cover of the old PC Mechwarrior 2 game?) and the original Unseen, I didn't find most of the designs/art from the 80's/90's to be particularly captivating on the tabletop.
Point of order real quick. Shimmering Sword's mech redesigns are fantastic to be sure, but these redesigns are actually the handiwork of Alexander Iglesias, A.K.A. FlyingDebris. He works as one of the lead artist for Piranha Games Inc. who produce Mechwarrior Online. His redesigns are amazing, and he's been churning them out like crazy for several years now.
I love his work,too! I own a ton of his Mechwarrior Online mechs, 3d prints.
However, Catalyst hired Anthony Scroggins to do their redesigns. While they share a lot of similarities with Alex Iglesias, they are not the same.
For example, this is Alex Iglesias Wolverine (Mechwarrior Online), versus Anthony Scroggins Wolverine (Battletech), and the new Wolverine miniature, which is the Anthony Scroggins Wolverine.
Yes, in this thread, there has been lots of talk and descriptions and information on ALPHA STRIKE, the quick play large-scale Battletech game.
That's like saying Necromunda is a revision of Warhammer 40k. They may share stats and base sizes but it's not the same game nor is intended to be.
You want faster mass mech game there's already one. Why you would want to make SECOND copy of less detailed game? What's wrong with having detailed game AND less detailed game that works better with dozen+ mechs?
What would that archieve? And why every gamer should be forced to play same game? Why cant' there be fast paced game for those who prefer it and detailed game for those who prefer it? Or for those shock horror wants to mix it up.
Wow, yeah I never thought about the possibility of just never changing anything no matter how old and out of date it is and just endlessly faux-raging at anyone who suggests anything
it's frustrating to have to tell people 'this would be a good one the get but.....'
I'll be getting at least one of each set just for the Anthony Scroggins (Shimmering Sword) Mech redesigns.
I can't love this sentiment enough!!! Wha its great is that I just got back into the mech pilot's seat as I introduce my kid to the game...
What's old is new again! Absolutly stoked to pick up those mechs again. I started with about 5, and going to get the lances in. I noticed that the new ones are like a spot taller then the older minis, is it ok to mix and match them, or do I use the new stat lines?
Except that there HAVE been revisions and reiterations over the years, it's usually just including the errata and cleaning up the language of the rulebooks, which is really all that was necessary.
When Catalyst first took over from Wizkidz/FanPro in 2006ish, they released a new main rulebook that was miles ahead of what had come before, but primarily because it used modern gaming rulebook graphic designs and was full color. Older editions had always been black and white images in the standard 2-column text style of most 1990's rulebooks.
But, it also had some minor changes to the rules themselves, the biggest of which was the change to partial cover. It went from a +3 modifier but you used the punch table chart to only a +1 but using the regular hit table and any leg hits would impact the cover instead (and possibly damage that terrain). Huge change, since previously you rarely hid behind a hill (too easy to be headshot on the punch table). Beyond that, you only really needed minor changes and errata , the rules have always worked pretty well for what they were meant to do.
ScarletRose wrote: Wow, yeah I never thought about the possibility of just never changing anything no matter how old and out of date it is and just endlessly faux-raging at anyone who suggests anything How could I have been so remiss.
One thing that is easily lost when discussing Battletech is that it is, at it's core, and will always be, a hex and counter wargame. Actual, real wargaming is it's own niche, represented mainly by GMT and Multi-Man Publishing and other smaller publishers. Advanced Squad Leader is, by far, one of the most popular and well recognized and awarded wargames of all time and it has basically not changed in over 30 years, and is lauded because of this.
So, cut to Battletech. Battetech is also hugely popular - enough so that it has also slipped more mainstream and caught the attention of tabletop gamers and miniatures gamers, thankfully in no small part to the miniatures - but at it's core is still a mostly unchanged wargames ruleset because that is what wargames are. Battletech is a hex and counter wargame and will always be primarily that way. There is no reason to ever significantly change the core rules because that is not what its audience nor genre expects of it. The rules, stats, hexes, etc are what makes Battletech what it is.
judgedoug wrote: I'm totally unaware of this. CGL doesn't really manufacture miniatures.* Iron Wind Metals makes metal minis for Battletech (with varying levels of quality).
I am talking about the Iron Wind versions. It was the last batch (I think 20th), can't remember how many GenCons ago but they showed 3d printed prototypes. I first thought not bad prototypes but you could see the print lines, which they ended using them as masters I'm guessing because the casted versions had the same issues. A couple of them had fingerprints, but those tend to be before the prints not from the prints itself, on early versions that made it into casting.
That said the lines aren't horrible and they probably made the decision that they are panel lines, armor plating that translates into them well. So even though they are there, unless you saw the original prints, most people would think they are meant to be part of the miniature. Plastic ends up being a toss-up for them. They usually end up awful though, at least the last batches. I'd rather have the metal versions, at least they were correct sizes. I'd prefer them in resin personally but I'm biased. ^_^
This is what I expect from prototypes that would become display pieces. No print lines, clear distinction of pieces, high detail, and good quality. Of course, I say that despite the picture is bad and I didn't finish cleaning but still have post-processing to do it was just after support removal.
Spoiler:
judgedoug wrote: I agree totally; I've been waiting for an Alpha Strike box set too. I'm personally of the opinion that Alpha Strike should be CGL's main market focus, with traditional Battletech being more of a "specialist" kind of game. But I unfortunately don't control CGL business decisions
Yeah I was all excited to jump back in, been waiting and waiting as it keeps getting pushed out. I know they made a big push last year for "other games" to diversify a bit more which has factored into things a bit. They completely missed timing though with Battletech computer game, they had a really good opportunity to use that momentum.
Dark Severance wrote: Plastic ends up being a toss-up for them. They usually end up awful though, at least the last batches. I'd rather have the metal versions, at least they were correct sizes. I'd prefer them in resin personally but I'm biased.
what do you mean by that? The last plastics, from 2014 to now, are incredibly detailed, and, imho, are superior to the metal versions. I have actually replaced most of my RP and IWM models now completely with MWO 3d prints and resins and the recent Catalyst plastic mechs.
Without getting all "grognard/get off my lawn!", the reason I've always preferred traditional BattleTech to Alpha Strike is just that BattleTech is a digital game. The hexes make things certain - you are either in range, or not, in LOS, or not, in cover, or not. There's no ambiguity of positioning as it's all based on structured, measured and labelled mapsheets*.
Alpha Strike is just another miniatures game, with all the benefits and negatives associated with such, including measuring out movement, range, looking for LOS, interpreting cover and so on. I get enough of that with 40K and Necromunda. I don't want that for BattleTech.
That and I have so much terrain that having to replicate all this in 6mm just turns me off.
[EDIT]: And about the plastics, the minis from the most recent starterbox are great. They're the same sculpts as the previous starterbox (but with thicker bases with the unit's chassis model printed on them), but the quality was miles better. This extended out to the Lance Packs, which gave us a whole host of new 'Mechs in plastic (Hatchetman, Wolfhound, Vulcan, Blackjack, and quite a few more, including my personal fav, the Guillotine).
I've never tried Alpha Strike, I'm too much of a Btech hardcore fan, but I'm giving it a try this time around. I've bought most of the available books until, like BrianDavion, I became fed up with the timeline around Jihad (The this could be true or not style of the Jihad sourcebooks killed my interest) But now I'm excited again and plan to get 2 beginners boxes and a starter at the very least. One cannot have enough mechs!
(Tho that puts me in the difficult position of having to finish all the mechs I have unpainted )
Ghaz wrote: These are the prototype Warhammer models from GenCon 2016...
As for 3D prototypes, I believe that would have to be CGL. As far as I know, Iron Wind Metals does everything strictly old school.
It the plethora of old FASA models available and other sources like the defunct Robotech game Ironwind never made it into my games in the 30 years I have played the game. Their awful renditions of the unseen and high prices turned off ant chance of that.
[EDIT]: And about the plastics, the minis from the most recent starterbox are great. They're the same sculpts as the previous starterbox (but with thicker bases with the unit's chassis model printed on them), but the quality was miles better.
For the price point (about $AU1 ea) I didnt mind the older plastics. They needed a rebase and a camo paint scheme to hide some of the awful edges/hollows but for the price point I would much prefer 10-15 lower quality plastics than 1 superb metal model.
But I am pretty tight when it comes to the wargaming budget especially on sideline games like btech that rarely get played.
[EDIT]: And about the plastics, the minis from the most recent starterbox are great. They're the same sculpts as the previous starterbox (but with thicker bases with the unit's chassis model printed on them), but the quality was miles better.
For the price point (about $AU1 ea) I didnt mind the older plastics. They needed a rebase and a camo paint scheme to hide some of the awful edges/hollows but for the price point I would much prefer 10-15 lower quality plastics than 1 superb metal model.
But I am pretty tight when it comes to the wargaming budget especially on sideline games like btech that rarely get played.
Yeah, the 2009 release of Battletech was terrible - they never quite got over the negative PR, despite switching to a new manufacturer entirely for the plastics for the 30th anniversary reprint of the box, and all the Lance Packs. Most people saw the 2009 plastics, went "blech!" and then stopped paying attention, missing out on the news of the 2014 rerelease and subsequent new plastic models (which are, imho, superior to the metal models from IWM! they're cleaner and sharper and loads more durable)
Grasshopper and Zeus from the 2014-2017 plastics range
Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?
BrookM wrote: Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?
If you're talking about the 2014 re-release, I'll buy it from you.
BrookM wrote: Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?
If you're talking about the 2014 re-release, I'll buy it from you.
No the one before that I think. 25th anniversary edition with a big Origins Award logo on the front of the box.
BrookM wrote: Is it bad that when I got the previous starter with the dodgy plastics (not including the two deluxe models), I couldn't even tell some of the models apart due to their quality?
If you're talking about the 2014 re-release, I'll buy it from you.
No the one before that I think. 25th anniversary edition with a big Origins Award logo on the front of the box.
Gotcha, so the 2009 one referenced before your post
AndrewGPaul wrote: I've got a copy of the "Technical Readout 1945" book they did a few years ago. In that, the vehicles and weapons have traits and quirks listed. Is that a general thing now? It was always a little disappointing that various vehicles and equipment got descriptions about how some were more prone to jams than other models, or were easier to pilot, but the rules took no notice of anything like that.
Quirks are an additional rule if you want to add them into your game. The BattleMech Combat Manual listed almost all 'Mech chassis in use and their quirks if they had not been listed in a publication prior. ANd quirks are assigned by CHASSIS, not individual variant.
It also provided some quick rules for adding quirks to home made designs.
I feel like that 2009 starter is getting a lot of rather undeserved hate. Like Mango says, rebasing the '09 plastics helps a lot, but so does a decent paint job. Similar to the old starter with the plastic Warhammer/thunderbolt/marauder etc, they could be mostly saved by a decent coat of paint. In hindsight, compared to the 2014 release then the mechs were sub-par, but honestly the '09 box set was pretty fantastic at the time.
I was still working at a FLGS when it released, and yes the models were not that great, but they were recognizable as what they were and you got 24 unique mechs PLUS the rulebooks PLUS the fluff book PLUS the maps. It wasn't just a starter, but a fairly decent sized collection in that box. We sold a LOT of that starter set. It not only got some of the old players back into it but also a whole bunch of new players that were only familiar with the videogames or clickytech.
Many of the new players went on to purchase additional IWM mechs and we actually had a 14 person league going for a while (in 2009!), about half of which were brand new players.
The updated the plastics in the 2014 box are great, but it didn't match the brand new excitement that the 2009 set did (at least locally).
I'm excited for this new starter with the completely resculpted mechs, but while the models look miles ahead of the 2009 starter, you only get 8. Getting 24 in the old set, even if they were low quality, was an incredible value to a brand new player
Kalamadea wrote: I'm excited for this new starter with the completely resculpted mechs, but while the models look miles ahead of the 2009 starter, you only get 8. Getting 24 in the old set, even if they were low quality, was an incredible value to a brand new player
I think they're worth the increase in price; they look phenomenal - but I hope the sales are insanely good and Catalyst releases updated Lance Packs with Anthony Scroggins style mechs. I'd pay $25 for a pack of 4 redesigns in plastic, personally.
I'd much rather have 8 good looking miniatures than 24 bad looking ones. Hell, I'd much rather have even a single good looking miniature. I don't want bad looking miniatures at all. At that point I might as well use coins or paper cutouts.
Iron_Captain wrote: I'd much rather have 8 good looking miniatures than 24 bad looking ones. Hell, I'd much rather have even a single good looking miniature. I don't want bad looking miniatures at all. At that point I might as well use coins or paper cutouts.
I don't think the 24 'Mechs in the last boxed set were bad looking. It was the cheap manufacturing techniques for the 24 'Mechs in the box before that that made them such a dud.
Once they improve the quality of that they were fantastic playing pieces and a wonderfully cheap way to bulk up your forces. And, as others have said, 24 'mechs (26 actually) in a single box is so much to work with when it comes to BTech. Add the Lance Packs to that and you could conceivably never buy another miniature.
H.B.M.C. wrote: [And, as others have said, 24 'mechs (26 actually) in a single box is so much to work with when it comes to BTech. Add the Lance Packs to that and you could conceivably never buy another miniature.
Was that was the problem with the last 2 box sets? For many they were a 'game in a box' instead of a starter set. When a sensible time game is only 4v4 giving a player 26 options means they generally dont have to buy anything else. Especially when the box set came with 2 quick reference cards etc.
Maybe a starter set should be 4-6 models and aimed at a starter game of 2v2 at a lower price point to encourage new players to then expand into lance packs. Sort of like X-Wing model but no single mech packs.
From a retailer point of view (im not a retailer) the old btech box sets are just a one off sale, how does a store justify promoting/stocking a game when there is very little scope for ongoing sales past the 'starter box'?
MangoMadness wrote: Was that was the problem with the last 2 box sets? For many they were a 'game in a box' instead of a starter set. When a sensible time game is only 4v4 giving a player 26 options means they generally dont have to buy anything else. Especially when the box set came with 2 quick reference cards etc.
Maybe a starter set should be 4-6 models and aimed at a starter game of 2v2 at a lower price point to encourage new players to then expand into lance packs. Sort of like X-Wing model but no single mech packs.
From a retailer point of view (im not a retailer) the old btech box sets are just a one off sale, how does a store justify promoting/stocking a game when there is very little scope for ongoing sales past the 'starter box'?
As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.
And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.
It's a starterbox because it introduces you to that universe and shows you what else is possible.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.
Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.
You obviously dont know how retail works because there is 0% chance a store will stock anywhere near 3000 designs.
They have to market Btech not only to customers but to retailers, to do so you need a 'core set' and 'expansion packs' (lance packs) that a retailer can progressively sell and make money from. Ignore the retailers and Btech will continue to be a game noone plays and very few people even buy.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.
Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.
You obviously dont know how retail works because there is 0% chance a store will stock anywhere near 3000 designs.
They have to market Btech not only to customers but to retailers, to do so you need a 'core set' and 'expansion packs' (lance packs) that a retailer can progressively sell and make money from. Ignore the retailers and Btech will continue to be a game noone plays and very few people even buy.
How about the war store?
Or....Order them from Ironwind metals.
Back when it was Ral Partha the big game stores would have a section of blister packs hundreds strong. For me, walking through the war store was like being in heaven, only on inventory day...
H.B.M.C. wrote: [And, as others have said, 24 'mechs (26 actually) in a single box is so much to work with when it comes to BTech. Add the Lance Packs to that and you could conceivably never buy another miniature.
Was that was the problem with the last 2 box sets? For many they were a 'game in a box' instead of a starter set. When a sensible time game is only 4v4 giving a player 26 options means they generally dont have to buy anything else. Especially when the box set came with 2 quick reference cards etc.
Maybe a starter set should be 4-6 models and aimed at a starter game of 2v2 at a lower price point to encourage new players to then expand into lance packs. Sort of like X-Wing model but no single mech packs.
From a retailer point of view (im not a retailer) the old btech box sets are just a one off sale, how does a store justify promoting/stocking a game when there is very little scope for ongoing sales past the 'starter box'?
Do you you play 40k? Because you could buy the codex, the rules, and a army box and never buy anything again.
the Mini scene of battletech is a tiny scene, there's a reason why their minis are made by a third party lisencer. Battletech has always been marketed almost more like an RPG rather then a mini game. the codex suplements with their "1 page of rules and a buncha pages of useless fluff" people complained about in 6th edition 40k? thats the NORM in battletech.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As said earlier in the thread, you don't have to even buy miniatures for BTech. It's a P&P game that works with maps and counters.
Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures
H.B.M.C. wrote: And why would people want anything else? Because people might want to play with different 'Mechs. There are over 3000 variants/'Mech designs. As good as 26 'Mechs are, they represent a fraction of what the game offers. And that's before we even get into aircraft, tanks, infantry, and so on.
You obviously dont know how retail works because there is 0% chance a store will stock anywhere near 3000 designs.
They have to market Btech not only to customers but to retailers, to do so you need a 'core set' and 'expansion packs' (lance packs) that a retailer can progressively sell and make money from. Ignore the retailers and Btech will continue to be a game noone plays and very few people even buy.
You've got to follow the players, of course. When it kicked off in our shop majorly last time, it started with the big boxes. Then the store started stocking the technical readouts, and offering to order mechs. I don't think they ever bothered with the record sheet books, but the TRO's sold very quickly.
There was a bunch of horse trading at first, as people worked to make their Kurita, Capellan, or Steiner lance from the boxed set, then they grabbed a few metal designs of each to make their force cooler. That naturally led to paint and brush sells, as few people have enough purple on hand to make FWL work. Then someone discovered clans, and the store became an arms dealer as the tech level accelerated. Admittedly, I don't have their profit figures or anything like that, but it was a thriving community which seemed to be putting new mechs on the table each week, even without an escalation league. If a canny store could lead or host a campaign it should be profitable with very little shelf space.
The thing for me is that there's all this fluff in the books, but it doesn't push it front and centre. For all the talk about different factions preferring certain 'Mechs, that info was left lurking in sourcebooks somewhere. If the starter box had had a sheet saying "these four 'mechs are mostly used by this faction, and those others are used by that faction", and had some decent colour pictures of them in the appropriate colours, then I'd have got that. As it was, I just used whatever 'Mechs I liked, and it was all a bit abstract.
The "problem" with the 2009 starter seems to be that it had the same quality of components as the 1992 box. On the other hand, look at how the quality of the components improved between 2nd and 5th edition 40k. And while MangoMadness might not know anything about Battletech, he's got a point - the market for hex-and-counter wargames isn't what it was. Other boardgames with similar gameplay either have better or more miniatures (Zombicide, Mantic's games) or much better graphic design (look at the boards for Heroes of Normandie compared to the rather plain Battletech mapsheets).
The only talk I see about Battletech is from people who already play it - and selling them a starter set is a waste of time by definition. Especially since it's not like 40k where the rules change significantly across editions.
Also, while you say it's a hex-and-counter wargame, it doesn't actually give you many counters. OK, you get a couple of dozen standees for the 'Mehs in the starter set, but after that, you do kinda have to buy miniatures, because there's no other official way to represent units on the maps!
AndrewGPaul wrote: The only talk I see about Battletech is from people who already play it - and selling them a starter set is a waste of time by definition.
I own the 4th Edition starter box, the CityTech 1st and 2nd Ed boxes (the 2nd Ed one came with plastic 'Mechs, including Clan 'Mechs), the 2009 one with the terrible quality plastic, the more recent one with the superior plastic minis, and will be getting the new ones as well.
I started with the 2nd edition City Tech box (my friend had the 3rd edition Battletech box with the Unseen.
What I was getting at was that a starter set is supposed to sit on a shelf and entice new players to pick it up and go "that looks cool. I'll take it" and come back next week or next month and buy more toys and books. I'm not sure Battletech does that; at least not locally to me.
Mind you, this thread has made me want to dig out my old 'Mechs (metal versions of the models in the 3rd edition box set, plus the Reseen equivalents, mostly) and repaint them in a less boring colour scheme - or two, so I've got two sides. It also makes me miss the two Clan Marauder IICs I used to have (because that was the closest to the MAD-3R Marauder I could find in my not-so-F LGS). I never did have the proper rules for them.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The "problem" with the 2009 starter seems to be that it had the same quality of components as the 1992 box.
Actually, that is patently untrue. The 'mechs themselves were only a bit better than the old ones, yes, but the maps' quality was leaps and bound higher. Cereal box-like cardboard in the old, boardgame-quality cardboard in the new, it's not even funny.
The maps have had various incarnations over the past decade or so. I have numerous versions of the BattleTech map, some in the old style, some in a glossy and gakky style, and even one in a folding card-stock style, which is really nice.
The "MapPacks" of which there were... I want to say 3 (?)... were very nice, but these new ones are apparently paper. That's ok as long as they are new maps.
I had two or three of the map packs available for 3rd and 4th editions. Some interesting geography, but terrible art, and every single sheet had a different colour scheme, so using them together looked awful.
Iron_Captain wrote: I'd much rather have 8 good looking miniatures than 24 bad looking ones. Hell, I'd much rather have even a single good looking miniature. I don't want bad looking miniatures at all. At that point I might as well use coins or paper cutouts.
I don't think the 24 'Mechs in the last boxed set were bad looking. It was the cheap manufacturing techniques for the 24 'Mechs in the box before that that made them such a dud.
Talking about the 2009 box, not the 2014 box.
If you ever want to see how bad QC and PR can haunt you for a decade, just look in this thread. Jesus
so like the two new Battletech starter sets that this thread is about
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MangoMadness wrote: Lol, how to make a complete failure of a game in 2018 - Step 1: give it cardboard standees instead of miniatures
Literally the most popular games in the world are paper and card and wood blocks unless your store doesn't stock Pandemic or Twilight Struggle or Settlers or Carcassone or Dead of Winter or Agricola or 7 Wonders and I guess you don't stock any wargames at all from GMT or MMP
judgedoug wrote: Confirmed from CGL that the maps in the new set are the same type as the Map Packs, in order to be compatible. (so thick paper or whatever)
The latest map packs were heavy boardgame cardstock, just like the ones in the box.
Hey guys, kind of a weird question. I don't know that much about the lore.
I am building some battlemech models and and starting to think about iconography and buying some decals from Fighting Piranha. I am going to go with the mechs that I love, which means some are going to be IS and some are going to be clan. The specific chassis I am thinking of are Raven, Catapult, Mad Dog (Vulture), Stalker, Timber Wolf (Mad Cat), and Uziel. Stuff like that.
Are there situations where these mechs could potentially be in the same lance? I don't know if the IS would ever use clan mechs, or vice versa - would a Raven ever wear a Wolf decal, or a Uziel wear Liao? Presumably mercenaries, if nothing else, would use whatever they can get?
It kind of depends on where on the timeline you are: the farther you go since the clans invasion of the IS, the more feasible it would be. Generally it would be easier to see IS units with some clan mechs than the other way around, but it's not completely unheard of.
It's entirely feasible to have mixed IS/Clan units, particularly for Inner Sphere units later on in the Clan War (especially after Operation Bulldog and the capture of the Smoke Jaguar home world of Huntress)
Prince Victor Davion is piloting a Daishi (Dire Wolf) from quite early in the Clan Invasion, given to him by Jaime Wolf following the war council/training on Outreach. Wolf's Dragoons are clearly manufacturing OmniMechs by this time and presumably will have provided more examples to the other IS leaders. A deal is also reached on Outreach for the Free Worlds League to manufacture new battlemechs to support the defense although I don't think that what types those are is ever specified, but some of those mechs could well be Clan designs (I do recall the protaganists of one book disparaging knock off IS versions of Clan Mechs).
Several mercenary units are also reported as having various salvaged Clan Mechs, e.g. Comacho's Caballeros has at least one Mad Cat (Timber Wolf) and the Black Thorns captured several Clan Omnis from on Borghese.
The Clans may field some IS designs in certain formations. Second line and garrison units are often equipped with lesser mechs, usually the updated IIC versions of Classic Star League designs, but could potentially be equipped with newer IS designs as well. Solahma (pirate hunting) units of old and disgraced warriors are probably equipped with anything they can get hold of (if anything) so it would be entirely plausible for such formations to have salvaged IS designs. I think it would be extremely unlikely for a front line unit to have any IS mechs (Phelan Wards Wolfhound IIC being the only exception I can think of).
So I'd suggest going ahead and making the mixed units however you fancy.
I am really interested in this release. The models look good and the cardboard mechs remind of the fond days of Gurps RPG. I have also a question to the Battletech veterans:
Would it be feasible or an utter waste of time to port some rules from Battletech over to IKR? The latter is not much of a game on it´s own imo. I know that there is no hex grid in IKR and the scale is different.
Ouze wrote: Wait, so I could do a post-3060 Kurita? That would work for me.
Well Kurita is not as cool as the CC, but I guess you could put all those mechs in a Kurita unit. Tho Ravens are not very common in the DC, they have their own electronic warfare instead, the Hitman.
If I were to choose I would go Liao-Marik-Kurita-Steiner-everybody else-Davion
Ouze wrote: Wait, so I could do a post-3060 Kurita? That would work for me.
Now that's going into an era I'm less familiar with, but it looks like the Chaos March, particularly the Lyon's Thumb would be the most likely locale for Draconis forces that included a hefty dose of Capellan and Fedcom mechs. Any of the many Dieron Regulars would be great canonical choices- though I'd probably add a distinctly heavy or light Drac mech- maybe the Raptor, or Strider- they're both Inner Sphere omnis from the same time that the DCMS loved, and both have an aesthetic similar to the mechs you've listed.
The Catapult can also be run in the dreaded K2 variant, giving it 2 PPCs and an instant association with Kurita.
Now if you want to go full Samurai, grab a Hatamoto-Chi and No-Dachi. No one will ever question that it is a DCMS force if you have a No Dachi.
hobojebus wrote: Why play any freebirth when you could choose the chosen of kerensky, you understand the way of the clans is superior quiaff?
Agreed. Although if someone would really want to run with freebirth rabble for some inexplicable reason, I guess that Kuritans do come closest to having something that could be called honour.
Ouze wrote: Wait, so I could do a post-3060 Kurita? That would work for me.
Well Kurita is not as cool as the CC, but I guess you could put all those mechs in a Kurita unit. Tho Ravens are not very common in the DC, they have their own electronic warfare instead, the Hitman.
If I were to choose I would go Liao-Marik-Kurita-Steiner-everybody else-Davion
Speaking of factions- they did a great job selecting mechs that were used by all the Great Houses- the only mech really bound to one house is the Commando. Still, some favor them more than others- Behold!
Mech, and Houses they most commonly appear in, in order of frequency.
Wolverine - FWL, Federated Suns, Kurita
Griffin- Kurita, FWL, Federated Suns
Awesome- FWL
Battlemaster- Lyran, FWL
Catapult- Capellan Confederation
Thunderbolt- Lyran, FWL, Capellan
Commando- Lyran
Locust- Ubiquitous
Shadow Hawk- FWL
extra bonus
Blessed Mechs, mechs with variants used by the Word of Blake.
Griffin- GRF-4R
Wolverine- WVR-9W
Commando- Com-7B
Locust- LCT-5W and LCT-5W2
And here's a great resource compiled from old tech readouts and sourcebooks. It has random assignment tables for 3028 for many different factions.
Excellent points! I was going off of the blurbs on Sarna. edited to add Lyran to Griffins.
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Gitzbitah wrote: Speaking of factions- they did a great job selecting mechs that were used by all the Great Houses- the only mech really bound to one house is the Commando. Still, some favor them more than others- Behold!
Mech, and Houses they most commonly appear in, in order of frequency.
Wolverine - FWL, Federated Suns, Kurita
Griffin- Lyran, Kurita, FWL, Federated Suns
Awesome- FWL
Battlemaster- Lyran, FWL
Catapult- Capellan Confederation
Thunderbolt- Lyran, FWL, Capellan
Commando- Lyran
Locust- Ubiquitous
Shadow Hawk- FWL
extra bonus
Blessed Mechs, mechs with variants used by the Word of Blake.
Griffin- GRF-4R , GRF-6CS
Wolverine- WVR-9W
Commando- Com-7B
Locust- LCT-5W and LCT-5W2
And here's a great resource compiled from old tech readouts and sourcebooks. It has random assignment tables for 3028 for many different factions.
BrianDavion wrote: Battlemaster is pretty closely associated with the Davions, if only because it's what Hanse rides
I would argue that. Battlemasters were used by commanders and House Lords in general because it fit the role of a commander's Mech. Minoru Kurita and Takashi Kurita also used it. Davion couldn't actually produce any of them. Liao had the original production line and large numbers initially, but when that line was destroyed, Steiner and Marik became the largest users due to secondary production lines. This was as of the 3025 era. Later in the timeline, production resumed in House Liao territory. So really, all of the Houses used the Battlemaster.
I kinda always wondered how they got the `Mechs in and out of the throne room. I wouldn't want to be in that room if any of the main weapons were discharged. Yikes.
BrianDavion wrote: Battlemaster is pretty closely associated with the Davions, if only because it's what Hanse rides
I would argue that. Battlemasters were used by commanders and House Lords in general because it fit the role of a commander's Mech. Minoru Kurita and Takashi Kurita also used it. Davion couldn't actually produce any of them. Liao had the original production line and large numbers initially, but when that line was destroyed, Steiner and Marik became the largest users due to secondary production lines. This was as of the 3025 era. Later in the timeline, production resumed in House Liao territory. So really, all of the Houses used the Battlemaster.
I think you are missing BrianDavion's point. Hanse Davion rode the Battlemaster, and especially for the early fiction, that was a big deal. Association between a `Mech and faction doesn't mean that design is produced, or even fielded in large numbers, by that faction. It could simply be a matter of an iconic personality from that faction piloting that design. Like Natasha Kerensky, and by extension the Wolf's Dragoons, associated with the Warhammer. Or the Archer in Jamie Wolf's case. Phelan Ward drove a Wolfhound even when he was a Clanner and that `Mech is produced by Steiner.
Minoru and Takashi Kurita are iconic personalities that piloted BattleMasters. That would make it just as closely associated with House Kurita as House Davion.
Ghaz wrote: Minoru and Takashi Kurita are iconic personalities that piloted BattleMasters. That would make it just as closely associated with House Kurita as House Davion.
I don't think Minoru Kurita is a close analog to Hanse Davion. Takashi is a lot closer, but even that character didn't receive the focus Hanse did until much later. House Davion was the focus of many of the original plot lines for the game. Hanse Davion was a huge influence on early Battletech both as a character in the novels and as a political figure. He was The Fox! He outwitted Max Liao and united two houses! He planned the 4th Succession War, and established the New Avalon Institute of Science!
It wasn't until Hanse died and the Clan era began that the focus was taken off Davion primarily and expanded to explore the other houses. Prior to that most of the other houses like Liao and Kurita were just the bad guys.
Takashi was indeed an iconic character and you can ask any Wolf's Dragoons fans what kind of an impact he had on the setting. The fact remains that the BattleMaster has had many 'iconic personalities' pilot the 'mech from many Houses, not just House Davion.
Ghaz wrote: Takashi was indeed an iconic character and you can ask any Wolf's Dragoons fans what kind of an impact he had on the setting. The fact remains that the BattleMaster has had many 'iconic personalities' pilot the 'mech from many Houses, not just House Davion.
Did I say he wasn't? I said he wasn't as iconic as Hanse. And thanks for backing my point, up until the Clan invasion Takashi, like most Kuritans, was a bad guy. He screwed over the protagonist Wolf's Dragoons, and was the foil for Hanse Davion.
I kinda always wondered how they got the `Mechs in and out of the throne room. I wouldn't want to be in that room if any of the main weapons were discharged. Yikes.
Funnier still, those two 'mechs don't carry a single short range weapon...
I kinda always wondered how they got the `Mechs in and out of the throne room. I wouldn't want to be in that room if any of the main weapons were discharged. Yikes.
Funnier still, those two 'mechs don't carry a single short range weapon...
They're likely GRF-1S models which replace the weapons with a Large Laser, 2 mediums and a LRM 5.
Yeah. I like imagining a threat against the Archon being handled by a PPC blast. Sure, everyone in the throne room is dead, but damn it! so is the assassin.
Ghaz wrote: Minoru and Takashi Kurita are iconic personalities that piloted BattleMasters. That would make it just as closely associated with House Kurita as House Davion.
Minoru Kurita is a background character, he's hardly iconic. (assuming you're talking about the cordinator at the time of the fall of the Star League)
and Takashi may have piloted a battlemaster once or twice but if he did it wasn't in any remarkable actions. (Takashi's most notable action for us was the battle of Luthien where he piloted a grand dragon)
Hanse meanwhile was actually listed as the notable battlemaster pilot in TRO 3039
Ghaz wrote: Minoru and Takashi Kurita are iconic personalities that piloted BattleMasters. That would make it just as closely associated with House Kurita as House Davion.
Minoru Kurita is a background character, he's hardly iconic. (assuming you're talking about the cordinator at the time of the fall of the Star League)
and Takashi may have piloted a battlemaster once or twice but if he did it wasn't in any remarkable actions. (Takashi's most notable action for us was the battle of Luthien where he piloted a grand dragon)
Hanse meanwhile was actually listed as the notable battlemaster pilot in TRO 3039
Handbook: House Kurita would disagree with your assessment of Takashi, with him rising from a lance commander to command the regiment's heavy assault battalion and then command of the Otomo while piloting the family's BattleMaster. He may have even been mentioned in the technical readout as well if he wasn't the heir to his father (who was assassinated in 3004) and ruling the Draconis Combine for thirty-five years.. Hanse meanwhile was the second son who was destined for a life in the AFFS if not for the death of his brother Ian in 3013 at the hands of Yorinaga Kurita.
Regardless, there's a lot that makes a 'mech an 'iconic' choice for a faction other than just having someone listed as a 'Notable Pilot' in a tech readout.
Ghaz wrote: Minoru and Takashi Kurita are iconic personalities that piloted BattleMasters. That would make it just as closely associated with House Kurita as House Davion.
Minoru Kurita is a background character, he's hardly iconic. (assuming you're talking about the cordinator at the time of the fall of the Star League)
and Takashi may have piloted a battlemaster once or twice but if he did it wasn't in any remarkable actions. (Takashi's most notable action for us was the battle of Luthien where he piloted a grand dragon)
Hanse meanwhile was actually listed as the notable battlemaster pilot in TRO 3039
Handbook: House Kurita would disagree with your assessment of Takashi, with him rising from a lance commander to command the regiment's heavy assault battalion and then command of the Otomo while piloting the family's BattleMaster. He may have even been mentioned in the technical readout as well if he wasn't the heir to his father (who was assassinated in 3004) and ruling the Draconis Combine for thirty-five years.. Hanse meanwhile was the second son who was destined for a life in the AFFS if not for the death of his brother Ian in 3013 at the hands of Yorinaga Kurita.
Regardless, there's a lot that makes a 'mech an 'iconic' choice for a faction other than just having someone listed as a 'Notable Pilot' in a tech readout.
Handbook: House Kurita was written in 2015 much, much later in the setting's development and after House Davion wasn't the primary focus of the story line (relative to the 80's when it was all about Davion).
Sure, Takashi is an iconic character, and I guess he drove a Battlemaster in his past, but he isn't necessarily associated with the Battlemaster like Hanse Davion is. I recall him defending Luthien with a Grand Dragon because I read about that in one of the BT novels. I don't recall reading a novel with Takashi zipping around in a Battlemaster. Hanse is mentioned piloting a Battlemaster in the novels (he fights Kai in a simulator on Outreach using his Battlemaster off the top of my head), in the fluff, and throughout the setting's many materials. Not so with Takashi.
And this is going back to what BrianDavion originally said. The Battlemaster is often associated with Davion because of Hanse. When the face of a major faction pilots a specific `Mech continuously that association is cemented regardless of the in-universe reasons why or why not that should be the case. House Davion doesn't make Battlemasters? So what? Hanse has one, and that is all that people will remember.
Takashi's Mechwarrior abilities as far as I can recall were never as prominent as his ruling abilities. Takashi is associated with cunning and political maneuvering. Again, a foil to Hanse Davion who was younger and active, but squaring off against an older statesmen in the political games of the Inner Sphere.
Yeah, agree. Griffins are pretty damn iconic for House Steiner. Hell, a pair of them guard the Archon in the throne room.
Fun fact: that back wall is actually a door.
I kinda always wondered how they got the `Mechs in and out of the throne room. I wouldn't want to be in that room if any of the main weapons were discharged. Yikes.
Funnier still, those two 'mechs don't carry a single short range weapon...
[/spoiler]
For short ranged combat, there's also their feet. I imagine it wouldn't take a Griffin long to cross that room and stamp an assassin out like a cigarette butt.
I honestly had never heard of the Battlemaster being associated with the Fed Suns until now.
While Hanse Davion was indeed a notable pilot, he was the only named Fed Sun (not Fed Com) mechwarrior I can think of who rode one, and it only happened twice in the novels I can think of (repelling the raid on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War, and Kai Allard-Liao's Trial of Position run by the Wolf's Dragoons). I always remember it being a Marik or Steiner machine.
Yeah, agree. Griffins are pretty damn iconic for House Steiner. Hell, a pair of them guard the Archon in the throne room.
Fun fact: that back wall is actually a door.
I kinda always wondered how they got the `Mechs in and out of the throne room. I wouldn't want to be in that room if any of the main weapons were discharged. Yikes.
Funnier still, those two 'mechs don't carry a single short range weapon...
[/spoiler]
For short ranged combat, there's also their feet. I imagine it wouldn't take a Griffin long to cross that room and stamp an assassin out like a cigarette butt.
If you're armored only in your Sunday best or even infantry combat kit, raw shrapnel from LRMs or PPC discharge will still ruin your day very effectively.
nobody wrote: I honestly had never heard of the Battlemaster being associated with the Fed Suns until now.
While Hanse Davion was indeed a notable pilot, he was the only named Fed Sun (not Fed Com) mechwarrior I can think of who rode one, and it only happened twice in the novels I can think of (repelling the raid on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War, and Kai Allard-Liao's Trial of Position run by the Wolf's Dragoons). I always remember it being a Marik or Steiner machine.
Agreed. If you want to know what is an 'iconic' 'mech for a faction you look at it's deployment and not the notable pilots. Otherwise you'd believe that the Daishi OmniMech is an 'iconic' Com Star 'mech since Technical Readout: 3050 Upgrade lists Precentor Martial Victor Steiner-Davion as a 'Notable MechWarrior' for the Daishi.
nobody wrote: I honestly had never heard of the Battlemaster being associated with the Fed Suns until now.
While Hanse Davion was indeed a notable pilot, he was the only named Fed Sun (not Fed Com) mechwarrior I can think of who rode one, and it only happened twice in the novels I can think of (repelling the raid on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War, and Kai Allard-Liao's Trial of Position run by the Wolf's Dragoons). I always remember it being a Marik or Steiner machine.
Those are two pretty pivotal moments in the setting's story and neither resulted in an association with the `Mech and Hanse Davion for you?
*shrug*
Not sure this means anything but about 20% of the Battlemasters painted on CamoSpecs are in Davion/Fed Suns schemes. For a non-Davion `Mech that is pretty healthy representation for the ol' Sword and Sunburst!
nobody wrote: I honestly had never heard of the Battlemaster being associated with the Fed Suns until now.
While Hanse Davion was indeed a notable pilot, he was the only named Fed Sun (not Fed Com) mechwarrior I can think of who rode one, and it only happened twice in the novels I can think of (repelling the raid on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War, and Kai Allard-Liao's Trial of Position run by the Wolf's Dragoons). I always remember it being a Marik or Steiner machine.
Those are two pretty pivotal moments in the setting's story and neither resulted in an association with the `Mech and Hanse Davion for you?
*shrug*
Not sure this means anything but about 20% of the Battlemasters painted on CamoSpecs are in Davion/Fed Suns schemes. For a non-Davion `Mech that is pretty healthy representation for the ol' Sword and Sunburst!
I never associated Battlemasters with Davion either. They were always a Mech for commanders and nobles/rulers but no specific House association for me.
Clearly this association is not as universal as you make it out to be.
I... don't really care all that much about what's iconic for which faction. One of the strong points of the setting, IMHO, is that while you can follow those lines if you want, there's always ways to circunvent them and do whatever you like and don't care about "canon".
I kinda always wondered how they got the `Mechs in and out of the throne room. I wouldn't want to be in that room if any of the main weapons were discharged. Yikes.
Funnier still, those two 'mechs don't carry a single short range weapon...
For short ranged combat, there's also their feet. I imagine it wouldn't take a Griffin long to cross that room and stamp an assassin out like a cigarette butt.
If you're armored only in your Sunday best or even infantry combat kit, raw shrapnel from LRMs or PPC discharge will still ruin your day very effectively.
Plus, the Griffins don't even need to really aim!
I wondered about that as well. How do those 'Mechs even move without damaging that nice marble floor? I don't think their armament really matters though. Having 'Mech bodyguards is more for the intimidation than it is practical.
nobody wrote: I honestly had never heard of the Battlemaster being associated with the Fed Suns until now.
While Hanse Davion was indeed a notable pilot, he was the only named Fed Sun (not Fed Com) mechwarrior I can think of who rode one, and it only happened twice in the novels I can think of (repelling the raid on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War, and Kai Allard-Liao's Trial of Position run by the Wolf's Dragoons). I always remember it being a Marik or Steiner machine.
Those are two pretty pivotal moments in the setting's story and neither resulted in an association with the `Mech and Hanse Davion for you?
*shrug*
Not sure this means anything but about 20% of the Battlemasters painted on CamoSpecs are in Davion/Fed Suns schemes. For a non-Davion `Mech that is pretty healthy representation for the ol' Sword and Sunburst!
Nope, not really, but I’ll admit when I was bigger into the game (circa early 90s) I did much deeper dives into the fluff. Like, I knew Davion tended to be big into autocannon mechs (at least, when it came to 3025 mechs). The Enforcer, Blackjack, Jagermech, and Victor all come to mind as more iconic Fed Suns mechs to me.
And Davion did have quite a few Battlemasters, but theirs were mostly captured from the Capellans or Combine. I wouldn’t blink twice if I was playing against somebody who was playing a Fed Suns army and he dropped a Battlemaster, but I wouldn’t go into a blind match and think “yeah, he’s playing a Davion RCT so he’s definitely going to be leading off with a BLR.”
nobody wrote: I honestly had never heard of the Battlemaster being associated with the Fed Suns until now.
While Hanse Davion was indeed a notable pilot, he was the only named Fed Sun (not Fed Com) mechwarrior I can think of who rode one, and it only happened twice in the novels I can think of (repelling the raid on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War, and Kai Allard-Liao's Trial of Position run by the Wolf's Dragoons). I always remember it being a Marik or Steiner machine.
Those are two pretty pivotal moments in the setting's story and neither resulted in an association with the `Mech and Hanse Davion for you?
*shrug*
Not sure this means anything but about 20% of the Battlemasters painted on CamoSpecs are in Davion/Fed Suns schemes. For a non-Davion `Mech that is pretty healthy representation for the ol' Sword and Sunburst!
I never associated Battlemasters with Davion either. They were always a Mech for commanders and nobles/rulers but no specific House association for me.
Clearly this association is not as universal as you make it out to be.
Clearly not since a handful of people on the internet disagree with me. Doesn't mean you guys aren't all horribly wrong, though.
I think there are a lot of factors at play here, the biggest is probably when people first began playing Battletech and what their focus was: fluff or crunch. Since the counter arguments here seem to focus on which `Mech factories and which `Mech assignment charts the Battlemaster belongs to rather than which characters were using it, or citing books 20+ years into the games' development and after the characters being discussed were no longer prominent, there seems to be a divide along game eras and fluff/crunch.
nobody wrote: I honestly had never heard of the Battlemaster being associated with the Fed Suns until now.
While Hanse Davion was indeed a notable pilot, he was the only named Fed Sun (not Fed Com) mechwarrior I can think of who rode one, and it only happened twice in the novels I can think of (repelling the raid on New Avalon during the 4th Succession War, and Kai Allard-Liao's Trial of Position run by the Wolf's Dragoons). I always remember it being a Marik or Steiner machine.
Those are two pretty pivotal moments in the setting's story and neither resulted in an association with the `Mech and Hanse Davion for you?
*shrug*
Not sure this means anything but about 20% of the Battlemasters painted on CamoSpecs are in Davion/Fed Suns schemes. For a non-Davion `Mech that is pretty healthy representation for the ol' Sword and Sunburst!
Nope, not really, but I’ll admit when I was bigger into the game (circa early 90s) I did much deeper dives into the fluff. Like, I knew Davion tended to be big into autocannon mechs (at least, when it came to 3025 mechs). The Enforcer, Blackjack, Jagermech, and Victor all come to mind as more iconic Fed Suns mechs to me.
And Davion did have quite a few Battlemasters, but theirs were mostly captured from the Capellans or Combine. I wouldn’t blink twice if I was playing against somebody who was playing a Fed Suns army and he dropped a Battlemaster, but I wouldn’t go into a blind match and think “yeah, he’s playing a Davion RCT so he’s definitely going to be leading off with a BLR.”
Yeah, that makes sense. If you see a faction through the random assignment tables then it makes sense that a non-faction design wouldn't stand out despite a major character in that faction using the design. However, if you are a fluff person you might associate things differently.
I must admit, my list was composed from the availability mentioned in the Technical Readouts- TRO 3050 had this little blurb about the Battlemaster-
"This was enough though to make House Steiner and House Marik the largest users of BattleMasters during the Succession Wars. House Liao also fielded a large number of BattleMasters, at least until the devastation of the Fourth Succession War when many fell into the hands of the Federated Suns, themselves lacking any BattleMaster factories."
So weirdly, I was also using fluff, just a different variety of fluff. I never touched the Random Assignment Tables- my collection's never been massive enough to use them.
And it is also totally canon to steal mechs from enemy factions.
Sarna.net is a wonderful source if you'd love to know everything about a mech- and it cites 54 separate sources for the Battlemaster. The fluff is deep and wide, and does not touch on the novels.
All this talk reminds me of the last BT campaign I was in. We had to roll our unit's composition off of a master chart. One of mine was the weirdest roll. Was a merc unit originally from the CC. One of my mechs was salvaged, from the MoC. Who salvaged it from the FWL, who salvaged it from the CC, who salvaged it from the FWL, who salvaged it from the LC, who got it from the DC, who got it from the FS. Who built it. That little Valkyrie was a tramp.
Mmmpi wrote: All this talk reminds me of the last BT campaign I was in. We had to roll our unit's composition off of a master chart. One of mine was the weirdest roll. Was a merc unit originally from the CC. One of my mechs was salvaged, from the MoC. Who salvaged it from the FWL, who salvaged it from the CC, who salvaged it from the FWL, who salvaged it from the LC, who got it from the DC, who got it from the FS. Who built it. That little Valkyrie was a tramp.
Yeah. The whole thing was rolled out, you could start with between 4 and 20 mechs. I lucked out and got 15, including two atlases. (3025 campaign). There was a drop limit on missions though.
Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
Malika2 wrote: Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
I don't quite follow. These figures are about the size of the Knight from Adeptus Titanicus, and as far as detail is concerned they don't look too dissimilar? What about these looks dated?
My major gripe is more or less the cheap plastic they've released the previous minis in (and likely these too). Not the pearl-swirl awful stuff from the original kit "look, the paint just magically disappears!", but they've never once put quality HIPS level stuff in their kits.
If any franchise in gaming would benefit from quality multi-part plastic kits (not super crazy, but optional arms, etc.) it's Battletech. So I do agree. Now, if the prices are cheap, that's fine...but between the awful Iron Wind Metals and the sub-par plastic, it's tough to get excited about Battletech from a hobbying standpoint.
I love the new poses and the styling is spot on, I just hope they're not slippery cheapo plastic. Even the last starter box which was revised to be better was still below anything else you find in the miniatures world. Their lance packs (which started at some absurd price and eventually dropped substantially) were laughable quality for the money you paid.
I like Battletech, always have. It's just a love-hate relationship at times. I want their minis and models to be fantastic. I want to see a big sweet-ass multipart plastic Leopard kit, etc. What I get from Battletechis too often an "almost" product. I recently sold off my rather decent Battletech forces because I just didn't like the minis. I'd like to see a price/quality that brings me back.
Formosa wrote: Yes they look dated, that’s the point, battletech is very 80’s and I love it for it.
Yes. The game designers commonly refer to it as 'the future of the 1980's' on their forums.
One must also remember that the real life inspiration for these designs date back to the late 70's-early 80's and they're meant to stay closer to these than say the MWO take on these designs.
Malika2 wrote:Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
Elbows wrote: Their lance packs (which started at some absurd price and eventually dropped substantially) were laughable quality for the money you paid.
Battletech dropped off my radar for a few years, but are you talking about the $9.99 lance packs? What were they priced at before? At $10 for 4 plastic `Mechs the lance packs are a steal and perfect for inexperienced modelers since they were all single piece models. Quality was fine from the packs I picked up. Much better quality than the anemic 2007 starter set plastics and worlds apart from the 1992 "pearl-swirl" minis (those were bad).
Elbows wrote: I like Battletech, always have. It's just a love-hate relationship at times. I want their minis and models to be fantastic. I want to see a big sweet-ass multipart plastic Leopard kit, etc. What I get from Battletechis too often an "almost" product. I recently sold off my rather decent Battletech forces because I just didn't like the minis. I'd like to see a price/quality that brings me back.
Yeah. Hard to disagree, post-FASA Battletech has been a roller coaster ride and I honestly think the game would be better off out of Catalyst Game Labs control. There have been too many set backs and a lot of internal drama with Catalyst that I just don't find them to be good stewards of the license.
Still, being stuck with CGL, this move is the first step in potentially building Battletech back up into something. For years now the main boxed set has been OOP, map sets have been OOP, game rules have been OOP, but all of those crucial basic elements to get a game into players hands are being addressed. With luck, maybe enough people will buy in and eventually consistent, higher quality products will roll out the door.
I am not holding my breath because Battletech seems cursed at times, but if there was ever a moment when Battletech could take off this is it. The Hairbrained Schemes game along with MWO have opened up the fan base. We just need to get some of those computer game players over to the table top.
Yep, that's another issue. Oh, and originally I believe the Lance Packs were like $20-$25.00.
Eye watering for soft-plastic minis.
I agree though, Battletech is one of the few IPs which somehow carries on despite being out of print for years at a time --- it's happened five or six times since I initially bought a starter box in the early 90's. I have my qualms with Battletech, but I just want it to be good...I'm loving the PC game, so I guess that's something.
Elbows wrote: Yep, that's another issue. Oh, and originally I believe the Lance Packs were like $20-$25.00.
Eye watering for soft-plastic minis.
IIRC they were $19.95 MSRP for 4 Primaris-sized minis with no assembly required and some AS cards. The plastic was of the boardgame sort but a fair deal harder, and retained the details of the minis quite well.
Dunno, for a tad more of what you needed to spend for an X-Wing painted small ship ($20 now on 2nd ed), you got an unpainted (but completely assembled) full lance.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I think I prefer the metal model (the first one, if there's been more than one); that plastic one looks a little overweight and stubby.
Malika2 wrote: Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
Piloted mechs based on military science fiction is somehow "dated" compared to.. walking gothic castles on stubby legs wielding chainsaws?
That's like saying United States Colonial Marines look dated compared to space-laser-Napoleonics Vostroyans...
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Siygess wrote: Loving that Thunderbolt. Hopefully CGL will have a release date to announce for GenCon.
They'll be available for sale at GenCon with worldwide release right after.
Elbows wrote: Their lance packs (which started at some absurd price and eventually dropped substantially) were laughable quality for the money you paid.
Battletech dropped off my radar for a few years, but are you talking about the $9.99 lance packs? What were they priced at before? At $10 for 4 plastic `Mechs the lance packs are a steal and perfect for inexperienced modelers since they were all single piece models. Quality was fine from the packs I picked up.
It's not a Battletech NEWS thread without someone bringing up old Battletech plastics every page, just like it's not a Middle-earth NEWS thread without someone bringing up how twelve years ago GW raised the price on the infantry boxes.
Amusingly, regarding the Alpha Strike Lance Packs with the 4 plastic mechs, the plastics are a higher quality - crisper and with better detailing - than the IWM metal casts of the same 'mechs (that cost $10-$15 each). I wound up replacing most of my metals with those plastics, as they are more durable and paint up better. Selling the four metal mechs meant the four plastics were paid for and I had spare cash, and now, a 'mech can fall over without a random gun flying off.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I think I prefer the metal model (the first one, if there's been more than one); that plastic one looks a little overweight and stubby.
hobojebus wrote: It's just a shame clan mechs didn't get some Alphastrike packs.
Definitely a missed opportunity. The two premium plastic Clan `Mechs provided in the last starter set were quite nice. Lance or Star boxes of similar quality miniatures would have been an insta-buy for me.
hobojebus wrote: It's just a shame clan mechs didn't get some Alphastrike packs.
Definitely a missed opportunity. The two premium plastic Clan `Mechs provided in the last starter set were quite nice. Lance or Star boxes of similar quality miniatures would have been an insta-buy for me.
Sales of the other releases weren't great enough to continue, so there were no additional sets ordered. Not a missed opportunity if the opportunity was to lose more money.
However, CGL has dropped hints about a 3050 box with plastic clanners if the new starter set sells well.
hobojebus wrote: It's just a shame clan mechs didn't get some Alphastrike packs.
Definitely a missed opportunity. The two premium plastic Clan `Mechs provided in the last starter set were quite nice. Lance or Star boxes of similar quality miniatures would have been an insta-buy for me.
Sales of the other releases weren't great enough to continue, so there were no additional sets ordered. Not a missed opportunity if the opportunity was to lose more money.
Oh come on, Doug. It was a missed opportunity. Why did the initial sets need to be all IS designs? It was a missed opportunity to not release plastic Omnis when a not insignificant percentage of the player base are Clan players.
And so this doesn't devolve into an economics 101 lesson, I understand that stymied sales prevent additional releases in any product line. However, an initial box or two of Clan designs wouldn't have been a bad idea. That was the missed opportunity.
Piloted mechs based on military science fiction is somehow "dated" compared to.. walking gothic castles on stubby legs wielding chainsaws?
The concept isn't the issue, it's the execution that makes them look dated. That's partly down to the design, and partly down to the scale only allowing for so much detail... but is also, I expect, deliberate. If they updated the designs too heavily, people would be complaining that it doesn't look like Battletech.
So yes, these look dated. But that's not necessarily a problem... they also look like Battletech, which is cool in its own, campy way.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I think I prefer the metal model (the first one, if there's been more than one); that plastic one looks a little overweight and stubby.
hobojebus wrote: It's just a shame clan mechs didn't get some Alphastrike packs.
Definitely a missed opportunity. The two premium plastic Clan `Mechs provided in the last starter set were quite nice. Lance or Star boxes of similar quality miniatures would have been an insta-buy for me.
Sales of the other releases weren't great enough to continue, so there were no additional sets ordered. Not a missed opportunity if the opportunity was to lose more money.
Oh come on, Doug. It was a missed opportunity. Why did the initial sets need to be all IS designs? It was a missed opportunity to not release plastic Omnis when a not insignificant percentage of the player base are Clan players.
And so this doesn't devolve into an economics 101 lesson, I understand that stymied sales prevent additional releases in any product line. However, an initial box or two of Clan designs wouldn't have been a bad idea. That was the missed opportunity.
Especially given that alpha strike is supposed to be clan vs IS.
Not that I need more mechs I have close to a cluster of clan wolf mechs, most over 20 years old I used to buy them when we went to Florida on holiday, young hobo was thrilled to get them after discovering the game through Mechwarrior 2.
Elbows wrote: Their lance packs (which started at some absurd price and eventually dropped substantially) were laughable quality for the money you paid.
Battletech dropped off my radar for a few years, but are you talking about the $9.99 lance packs? What were they priced at before? At $10 for 4 plastic `Mechs the lance packs are a steal and perfect for inexperienced modelers since they were all single piece models. Quality was fine from the packs I picked up. Much better quality than the anemic 2007 starter set plastics and worlds apart from the 1992 "pearl-swirl" minis (those were bad).
Elbows wrote: I like Battletech, always have. It's just a love-hate relationship at times. I want their minis and models to be fantastic. I want to see a big sweet-ass multipart plastic Leopard kit, etc. What I get from Battletechis too often an "almost" product. I recently sold off my rather decent Battletech forces because I just didn't like the minis. I'd like to see a price/quality that brings me back.
Yeah. Hard to disagree, post-FASA Battletech has been a roller coaster ride and I honestly think the game would be better off out of Catalyst Game Labs control. There have been too many set backs and a lot of internal drama with Catalyst that I just don't find them to be good stewards of the license.
Still, being stuck with CGL, this move is the first step in potentially building Battletech back up into something. For years now the main boxed set has been OOP, map sets have been OOP, game rules have been OOP, but all of those crucial basic elements to get a game into players hands are being addressed. With luck, maybe enough people will buy in and eventually consistent, higher quality products will roll out the door.
I am not holding my breath because Battletech seems cursed at times, but if there was ever a moment when Battletech could take off this is it. The Hairbrained Schemes game along with MWO have opened up the fan base. We just need to get some of those computer game players over to the table top.
It doesn't help that the game was without a line developer for awhile, Herb left and they didn't assign anyone to the thing, Randell kinda took it over, but I've had the impression the games been basicly treading water since MWDA's last novel wcame out as they tried to figure out "where to from here?" their answer isn't IMHO a very good one from what I've heard
Malika2 wrote: Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
Piloted mechs based on military science fiction is somehow "dated" compared to.. walking gothic castles on stubby legs wielding chainsaws?
Im not talking about the concept of mechs, just their design. It would be asif GW would simply make the exact same designs for Titanicus like they did in the late 80s. Im not criticising the concept, just the execution.
Malika2 wrote: Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
Piloted mechs based on military science fiction is somehow "dated" compared to.. walking gothic castles on stubby legs wielding chainsaws?
Im not talking about the concept of mechs, just their design. It would be asif GW would simply make the exact same designs for Titanicus like they did in the late 80s. Im not criticising the concept, just the execution.
Just for the record... but you can't say that this:
...and this:
are the same exact designs any more than you can say that this:
and this:
Are the exact same design. I mean, yes, they kind of are... but feth no.
Conceptually the same, but improved execution. It's not as if that RT era model and more current version are exactly the same. So whilst thr basic concept is the same, the design has been improved upon. That's something that hasn't really happened in Battletech.
Malika2 wrote: Conceptually the same, but improved execution.
So exactly like the TBolt above then, except the resedigned TBolt shows more differences.
It's not as if that RT era model and more current version are exactly the same. So whilst the basic concept is the same, the design has been improved upon. That's something that hasn't really happened in Battletech.
Actually, the design of those two beakies above is almost exactly the same, down to the positioning of the torso cabling and excepting the boltgun... so they are much, much more similar between them than those two Thunderbolts or any other of the redesigned 'mechs are to the original ones, except on the execution part, where the new beakie is clearly way sharper.
I would personally call them both "improved execution over essentially the same design", but alright then.
That said, I will clearly concede that up until now, while the Tech readouts' designs have improved and evolved over the years, the IWM miniatures and the older Starter boxes and AS lance packs have not (particularly acute in the case of IWM). But the designs shown for these new starters have clearly improved over the original designs, IMHO, in much the same vein as those beaky SMs have.
I still like the newest starter box/lance packs 'mechs, but yes, they are very much 80s minis. Then again, I also like Oldhammer stuff, so...
Actually, the design of those two beakies above is almost exactly the same, down to the positioning of the torso cabling and excepting the boltgun... so they are much, much more similar between them than those two Thunderbolts or any other of the redesigned 'mechs are to the original ones, except on the execution part, where the new beakie is clearly way sharper.
I would personally call them both "improved execution over essentially the same design", but alright then.
I guess there are other 'Mechs that showcases the evolutionary process more than the Tbolt perhaps. The original Locust with its spindly little legs versus the beefier and more "military" version seen in the latest artwork/minis, for example. Overall the aestethic has moved a lot towards current military hardware, which is good for BT considering its style and background.
But yeah, BattleTech is/was kind of like the future of the 80s, in the same way as Fallout is the future of the 50s. And 40K is the future of...I dunno...a 80s heavy metal band? :-)
However, while I love all three, in most ways I would consider BattleTech the least goofy future of those three!
Hopefully with these new "reseen" or whatever they're calling them, they can get away from the oddities that resulted from them being pilfered from other settings; the Griffin and Battlemaster having massive cockpit spaces compare to the cramped confines of the Marauder and Thunderbolt. Or the Locust's "machne guns" looking suspiciously like three individual weapons.
One thing that always bugged me was that it seemed like the guys who drew the pictures never talked to the people who wrote the words. I mean, the Warhammer, Archer and Longbow are basically identical from the waist down, yet designed by three different manufacturers, while the BattleMaster and Marauder are apparently badge-mates. Hopefully tweaking the designs can make things somewhat more "joined up".
As an aside, have actual dimensions for the 'Mechs ever been published? The only "real" numbers ever published are the speed and mass, and even they're derived from game abstractions. I mean, the miniature for the 20-ton* Locust is much bigger than a quarter of the size of an 85-ton BattleMaster.
(pedant: given that BattleTech apparently uses metric mass units, it should be tonnes )
Malika2 wrote: Conceptually the same, but improved execution. It's not as if that RT era model and more current version are exactly the same. So whilst thr basic concept is the same, the design has been improved upon. That's something that hasn't really happened in Battletech.
I guess I'm missing something: I don't understand what you're saying. If anything, the Anthony Scroggins redesigns of the og Battletech mechs represent a significant improvement versus Space Marines, which still look like goofy watermelon head hamfist midget monks. Unless you mean Primaris marines, in which case, yes, Primaris marines look orders of magnitude better than normal marines, but still not much of a significant departure from the original Rogue Trader designs.
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DarkTraveler777 wrote: Oh come on, Doug. It was a missed opportunity. Why did the initial sets need to be all IS designs? It was a missed opportunity to not release plastic Omnis when a not insignificant percentage of the player base are Clan players.
And so this doesn't devolve into an economics 101 lesson, I understand that stymied sales prevent additional releases in any product line. However, an initial box or two of Clan designs wouldn't have been a bad idea. That was the missed opportunity.
Possibly, but honestly I'd rather have Scroggins or Iglesias redesigns anyway. While I really enjoyed the plastic Lance Packs replacing my metals, I'd rather have plastic redesigns replacing my metals
Malika2 wrote: Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
Piloted mechs based on military science fiction is somehow "dated" compared to.. walking gothic castles on stubby legs wielding chainsaws?
Im not talking about the concept of mechs, just their design. It would be asif GW would simply make the exact same designs for Titanicus like they did in the late 80s. Im not criticising the concept, just the execution.
These are retcons. These are what these 'mechs always looked like in-universe, for the real-life purpose of removing any licensed images from the BattleTech line. The 'new' designs are from the Project Phoenix technical readout and do look considerably different from the Unseen.
These are retcons. These are what these 'mechs always looked like in-universe, for the real-life purpose of removing any licensed images from the BattleTech line. The 'new' designs are from the Project Phoenix technical readout and do look considerably different from the Unseen.
They look considerably worse than the Unseen, It's as bad as Mark Gibbons concept art for Nagash vs Gary Morely's execution.
Malika2 wrote: Is it just me or has Battletech really failed to keep up with the times? I mean, it's not as if these models are bad or anything, but they don't really look to fit the 2018 standard. I mean...compared to the upcoming Adeptus Titanicus models these look like something from the 90s. :(
Piloted mechs based on military science fiction is somehow "dated" compared to.. walking gothic castles on stubby legs wielding chainsaws?
Im not talking about the concept of mechs, just their design. It would be asif GW would simply make the exact same designs for Titanicus like they did in the late 80s. Im not criticising the concept, just the execution.
These are retcons. These are what these 'mechs always looked like in-universe, for the real-life purpose of removing any licensed images from the BattleTech line. The 'new' designs are from the Project Phoenix technical readout and do look considerably different from the Unseen.
what? Project Phoenix stuff was a bad attempt to give the "unseens" facelifts back in uhh.. 2003. fifteen years ago. In-universe, they appear in 3085 and don't replace anything, they are newly manufactured (basically) with 3085 era appropriate equipment and whatnot.
These new plastic mechs are yes retcon designs for the mechs Battletech used from various animes of the late 1970's and early 1980's, lovingly done by Anthony Scroggins.
To put it in 40k terms;
old design from an anime: Rogue Trader Dreadnought
new redesign for the same 'mech: Current Space Marine Dreadnought
'project phoenix' mech that shares the same name as an 'older' one: Primaris Dreadnought
while people still use Rogue Trader dreadnoughts, the design was retconned with the current Dread; they're the same thing in the game. the Primaris dread is a newly manufactured thing and doesn't replace anything. same with the unseen versus redesigns, and project phoenix mechs.
I actually find the mechs from Battletech perfectly fine, especially the more modern designs/redesigns.
Its the rules that I find to be horribly dated. Its all great if a player is already a fan of the BT mechanics, but I personally find that as a player viewing things from a situation where I would have to learn the rules from scratch, as well as also teach any opponents those rules, that I can find games that can encompass mech-on-mech combat with more streamlined rules.
The Battletech rules are (for me) in the same family as Full Thrust, Star Grunt, etc. Rules that 'feel' very 80's.
Yes. From an in-universe standpoint, the Project Phoenix 'mechs are the 'new' designs even if their artwork is fifteen years older that the Classics (i.e. the new artwork which is replacing the Unseens). The Classics are retcons for the Unseens, as the Classics are now what the Unseens always looked like in-universe. No one ever said that the Project Phoenix 'mechs replaced the Classics just that they were 'new' designs.
The Warhammer is the iconic mech dujour:
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