I am definitely buying in. If it's good, great. If it's terrible, even better because it will be hilarious. This might just replace the Star Trek TNG/X-Men crossover novel Planet X as the best ridiculous book to pull out at parties.
Lord Kragan wrote: So how long until we have a chaos lord shout: "I WILL GET YOU NEXT TIME!" as he runs away.
Negative....how many years ago was Abaddon created?
No. Just no. That's like having some "Marquis de Sade for children". The universe is inherently not suitable for children. Make some great sy-fy books for children,great idea, but this will either not be suitable for children or not be truthful to the universe...
"Hey, let's make some children's book about some extremely xenophobic obscurantist empire that are the good guys! That will get some good messages to those kids!"
I don't know about AoS, maybe it could work there, though.
Perhaps. It wouldnt stop me. I think its a great idea. Universes have to be more widely recognisable and loved and maybe someday (someday!) we will get our own hollywood movie or perhaps Netflix tv series
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No. Just no. That's like having some "Marquis de Sade for children". The universe is inherently not suitable for children. Make some great sy-fy books for children,great idea, but this will either not be suitable for children or not be truthful to the universe...
"Hey, let's make some children's book about some extremely xenophobic obscurantist empire that are the good guys! That will get some good messages to those kids!"
I don't know about AoS, maybe it could work there, though.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No. Just no. That's like having some "Marquis de Sade for children". The universe is inherently not suitable for children. Make some great sy-fy books for children,great idea, but this will either not be suitable for children or not be truthful to the universe...
"Hey, let's make some children's book about some extremely xenophobic obscurantist empire that are the good guys! That will get some good messages to those kids!"
I don't know about AoS, maybe it could work there, though.
kind of agree
this just scream brand dilution
It's a series of age appropriate books. Not an announcement that henceforth, all Black Library will be age appropriate for 8-12.
There is a huge amount of the universes yet to tell stories about.
If they avoid known lore and branch out to character-based serials, this might work.
Perhaps. It wouldnt stop me. I think its a great idea. Universes have to be more widely recognisable and loved and maybe someday (someday!) we will get our own hollywood movie or perhaps Netflix tv series
I hate to disappoint you, but we’re never going to get a 40k movie.
The books look odd. I know when I was 12 I would have hated the cartoony covers, but I was reading Tolkien and Michael Moorcock back then.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No. Just no. That's like having some "Marquis de Sade for children". The universe is inherently not suitable for children. Make some great sy-fy books for children,great idea, but this will either not be suitable for children or not be truthful to the universe...
"Hey, let's make some children's book about some extremely xenophobic obscurantist empire that are the good guys! That will get some good messages to those kids!"
I don't know about AoS, maybe it could work there, though.
Of course it is suitable for children. I got into warhammer as a child 30 years ago. Have never heard of animal farm or gullivers travels? There is plenty of space for discussing adult themes in books aimed at children if they wish to. Or they could ignore it. I remember playing space crusade as a kid, and it never occurred to me to think of the marines as anything other than heroes at the time.
I wonder if this will tie in to the space marine adventures game that is coming out.
Joking aside its not a bad move considering how many fans of the series now have kids of their own. A means to have their kids get involved in the hobby is a nice way for families to bond and enjoy the same thing in their own way.
Books like this might well get kids into getting some help and building their own models; doing some painting (heck lots of gamer parents have a few squads of marines or other models painted by their kids).
I think some gamers would do well to remember that not all of the 40k univerae is a war torn hellhole where horrific demons stalk rubble strewn streeets eating children or where every Chaos cultist is some Slaaneshi worshipping rapist having coke fueled murder-orgies. There's room for these types of stories, too.
Heck, if Star Wars was able to run a series of horror novels aimed at younger readers, I don't see why GW can't run a series of adventure novels aimed at younger readers. I think that's going to be one of the key things here, too. These are adventure novels, likely with an emphasis on the adventure aspect rather than the grimdark parts.
Plus, there's always the possibility that these books may wind up having tie-in figures of the kids.
We need new blood in the hobby, but it this the way towards it? It feels like it's diluting the brand significantly here (Although Marvel and DC do a lot of the same with their universes, are GW big enough to try the same?).
40k is a complex crapsack world that is certainly not suitable for young children (hence why GW in the past said you had to be at least 11), but there are some of us here that are old enough to remember the tie-in toys for definitely-not-for-kids films like Alien, Robocop and Rambo. Although this still does go on today to an extent (Looking at you Cineworld with the Deadpool 2 cups with the kid's munchbox) it had its heyday in the late eighties early nineties.
Time will tell if this will damage the brand (some of us have enough trouble justifying this hobby and these certainly don't help the "it's for kids" mantra) or enhance it.
What better book to help kids deal with the harsh realities of every day life than a book about kids living in the 40k universe?
Why do they hate that person who looks different? I don't know, they just do.
What's a heretic? Just keep reading.
But, the kids helped the Inq find the heretic, why are they being taken away from their families? Best not to ask.
In all seriousness, I hope it works. I will make sure some get ordered for the library I work at which would be a great way for kids to access them.
Young Adult and Juvenile reading level books cover a lot of topics these days. The stuff GW puts out isn't too much for kids to handle, to be honest, except, maybe, Slaneesh. With Slaneesh I can see why they shelved her for redevelopment and a makeover.
I see the 40kJr. books focusing a lot on aliens, like Necrons as exampled on website, who are not human enough to be something kids can humanize as compared to Eldar and Tau.
Chapter one:
ANYTHING DEAD, GREEN OR SPROUTING HORNS WILL KILL YOU!
[u]
40K Adventures
Chapter one:
EVERYONE NOT WORSHIPING THE EMPEROR WILL KILL YOU. EVERYONE![/i]
Chapter Two
Congratulations! The Inquisition will take you and one other persion to Terra to serve the One True God. Please stay where you are so we can pick you up.*
THE END
There, I spoiled it for ya.
*in addition we will also execute your entire friends and family for heresy. if you feel sad that they are dead, immediently report to your superiors for voluntary hanging as a lession to others.
Where and when are those miniatures going to be available?
I see a lot of possibilities for a easy board game with a team of those kids, add in a miniature of each of the enemy models, and one of each of the other races, and you can have a pretty good introductory game...
Of course you might start having an issue when you start in on the Slannish demons, the Sister Repenta, and the cute little Tyranid- Phallic-cannon... But hey- Get those kids indoctrinated early!!!!!
CONSUME! SPEND MOMMY'S MONEY, THROW IT AWAY!! BUY MORE!!! rinse and repeat!
Can't see the announcement, but going by the art, is this strictly 40k? Some of those kids look like they'd fit in with Sigmar's crowd
This is a good thing though.
As others have said, there's plenty of space in both GW worlds for more family friendly stories to be told.
Most of us grew up with stories like this, be it in the form of books, movies, or games.
Reminds me of the Ewok movies and how they tied in to the Star Wars universe. Family friendly, but definitely some dark undertones to them. Despite Ewoks.
Yeah tentacles, skulls, rotting corpses, more SKULLZ, Egyptian robots with weapons that rip layers of flesh off your bones and space elf raiders that use human face flesh for masks- all perfect for the pre-teens and younger crowd.
Wait until Fulgrim encourages the pre-teens to give into those kind of funny and tingly but good sensations toward the other pre-teen characters... Or the Big I encourages pre-teens to report their peers that manifest "magical" powers...
The comics I understand but this is going to be a very interesting read...
Barzam wrote: I think some gamers would do well to remember that not all of the 40k univerae is a war torn hellhole where horrific demons stalk rubble strewn streeets eating children or where every Chaos cultist is some Slaaneshi worshipping rapist having coke fueled murder-orgies. There's room for these types of stories, too.
According to the website, for the AoS book, Kiri was raised in barbarian slave camps, and the Darkoath barbarians are described as "Just one of many brutal tribes who roam the Mortal Realms, the Darkoath Barbarians are pledged to the forces of Evil. Clad in rugged leather armour, these savage marauders cause mayhem and misery wherever they go: plundering, pillaging and enslaving whole populations." For the 40k book, "Talen ran away from home to avoid being enlisted in the military. He fell in with the Runak Warriors, a feral gang who lived in the tunnels beneath Rhal Rata, the largest hive-city on Targian." and Zelia is afraid of spiders "after being trapped in the web of a gigantic temple-weaver when she was a small child."
So... still a war torn hellhole where horrific demons stalk rubble strewn streets eating children, just with 83% less coke fueled murder-orgies.
This is amazing, i love it! Fantastic way of getting the next gen in And i have to admit it, the sheer amount of vitriol from the "adult" community about daring to try and bring kids into the game is god damn hilarious. I haven't laughed this hard in a while
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No. Just no. That's like having some "Marquis de Sade for children". The universe is inherently not suitable for children. Make some great sy-fy books for children,great idea, but this will either not be suitable for children or not be truthful to the universe...
"Hey, let's make some children's book about some extremely xenophobic obscurantist empire that are the good guys! That will get some good messages to those kids!"
I don't know about AoS, maybe it could work there, though.
kind of agree
this just scream brand dilution
It's a series of age appropriate books. Not an announcement that henceforth, all Black Library will be age appropriate for 8-12.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No. Just no. That's like having some "Marquis de Sade for children". The universe is inherently not suitable for children. Make some great sy-fy books for children,great idea, but this will either not be suitable for children or not be truthful to the universe...
"Hey, let's make some children's book about some extremely xenophobic obscurantist empire that are the good guys! That will get some good messages to those kids!"
I don't know about AoS, maybe it could work there, though.
kind of agree
this just scream brand dilution
It's a series of age appropriate books. Not an announcement that henceforth, all Black Library will be age appropriate for 8-12.
If this is targeted at 4 year olds the imagery and style here makes sense. But I remember I got into the hobby around 12 years old and if it had looked like this I would have never given it a second look. My child mind was in fact reeled in by stuff like the diaz daemonettes, and brutal chaos warriors slaughtering everything in sight.
Barzam wrote: I think some gamers would do well to remember that not all of the 40k univerae is a war torn hellhole where horrific demons stalk rubble strewn streeets eating children or where every Chaos cultist is some Slaaneshi worshipping rapist having coke fueled murder-orgies. There's room for these types of stories, too.
According to the website, for the AoS book, Kiri was raised in barbarian slave camps, and the Darkoath barbarians are described as "Just one of many brutal tribes who roam the Mortal Realms, the Darkoath Barbarians are pledged to the forces of Evil. Clad in rugged leather armour, these savage marauders cause mayhem and misery wherever they go: plundering, pillaging and enslaving whole populations." For the 40k book, "Talen ran away from home to avoid being enlisted in the military. He fell in with the Runak Warriors, a feral gang who lived in the tunnels beneath Rhal Rata, the largest hive-city on Targian." and Zelia is afraid of spiders "after being trapped in the web of a gigantic temple-weaver when she was a small child."
So... still a war torn hellhole where horrific demons stalk rubble strewn streets eating children, just with 83% less coke fueled murder-orgies.
I didn't see the bit with the character backgrounds. Even so, that's really not that bad and seems honestly fairly tame for their settings. I've seen worse backgrounds for characters in other media aimed at children. Let's not forget, Devilman and Fist of the North Star were aimed at kids, too.
I think he’s making it up as he goes along meself.
These are books aimed at 8-12 year old kids, who will almost certainly already be showing an interest in the game worlds.
Why wouldn’t a company want to tap that vein? Since when was diversifying a bad thing? Or become this nebulous ‘probably means whatever he wants it to mean) brand dilution?
Hollow wrote: I think that the 40k IP is big enough to be able to house both child friendly stories and adult ones.
Just because it could, does not mean it should.
well Marvel and in general comics can be all over the place in terms of child friendliness so can starwar but it didnt stop the big mouse from playing both fields and its definitely working for them.
gw should if they want to get new blood for the blood god in
Why can't they just read the normal fluff about coke fueled murder orgies at a young age and be scared for life like the rest of us?
Even though I know these books are kind of a separate entity that runs parallel to the Warhammer IP, my concern is that 40K will start to become less Grimdark and more hopeful as a result. Which would be catastrophic for the setting. They've already done enough damage by introducing Primaris. Next thing you know Jar-jar Binks will be running around as personal assistant to Guilliman.
This universe should be a horror beyond mentioning.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Why can't they just read the normal fluff about coke fueled murder orgies at a young age and be scared for life like the rest of us?
Even though I know these books are kind of a separate entity that runs parallel to the Warhammer IP, my concern is that 40K will start to become less Grimdark and more hopeful as a result. Which would be catastrophic for the setting. They've already done enough damage by introducing Primaris. Next thing you know Jar-jar Binks will be running around as personal assistant to Guilliman.
This universe should be a horror beyond mentioning.
Well blacker than the blackest black clearly stopped sell well. it limits potential customers and also limits new fluff and models. besides giving the imperium a little bit of hope only makes the fall much more painful.
Barzam wrote: I think some gamers would do well to remember that not all of the 40k univerae is a war torn hellhole where horrific demons stalk rubble strewn streeets eating children or where every Chaos cultist is some Slaaneshi worshipping rapist having coke fueled murder-orgies. There's room for these types of stories, too.
According to the website, for the AoS book, Kiri was raised in barbarian slave camps, and the Darkoath barbarians are described as "Just one of many brutal tribes who roam the Mortal Realms, the Darkoath Barbarians are pledged to the forces of Evil. Clad in rugged leather armour, these savage marauders cause mayhem and misery wherever they go: plundering, pillaging and enslaving whole populations." For the 40k book, "Talen ran away from home to avoid being enlisted in the military. He fell in with the Runak Warriors, a feral gang who lived in the tunnels beneath Rhal Rata, the largest hive-city on Targian." and Zelia is afraid of spiders "after being trapped in the web of a gigantic temple-weaver when she was a small child."
So... still a war torn hellhole where horrific demons stalk rubble strewn streets eating children, just with 83% less coke fueled murder-orgies.
I didn't see the bit with the character backgrounds. Even so, that's really not that bad and seems honestly fairly tame for their settings. I've seen worse backgrounds for characters in other media aimed at children. Let's not forget, Devilman and Fist of the North Star were aimed at kids, too.
What? No they weren't. They were over the top horror and ultra violence. Fist of the North Star in particular was cut to hell and back when it was brought over originally. That's like saying Urotsukidoji was aimed at kids.
There’s already new found hope in 40k with the advent of Cawl, Guilliman and the Primaris coming to sort out the dirty little traitors.
Yes, in some ways things are darker than ever with the Great Rift, but it does now feel like Mankind has at least a fighting chance, and will go down on the merits, rather than the inevitable.
But here’s a thought.....why not wait to see what the books are actually like? They might cross level cack, overly dependant on the IP to sell. They might become bestsellers and a well regarded series of varied stories with a common background. And rather than my fellow 20-40 something Sad Gits, I’d suggest just handing the book to someone of the target age range with an interest in sci-fi and fantasy, then seeing what they make of it.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No. Just no. That's like having some "Marquis de Sade for children". The universe is inherently not suitable for children. Make some great sy-fy books for children,great idea, but this will either not be suitable for children or not be truthful to the universe...
"Hey, let's make some children's book about some extremely xenophobic obscurantist empire that are the good guys! That will get some good messages to those kids!"
I don't know about AoS, maybe it could work there, though.
kind of agree
this just scream brand dilution
It's a series of age appropriate books. Not an announcement that henceforth, all Black Library will be age appropriate for 8-12.
I don't think you know what brand dilution means
I think you care too much.
I've posted not more than 2 lines about the subject. Should be a good indication that I don't really care about it
My brother in law was reading Hokuto No Ken when he was in grade school as it was serialized. So were his friends. It most certainly was part of the regular Jump lineup back in the mid 80s.
That's Japan though, at a different time and place in history and what was acceptable.
The biggest hurdle will be the violence most likely. I think as long as the depictions of gore and the more gratuitous elements are kept in check (and can and should certainly be alluded to), this will go over fine.
Dunno if I'll be able to stock it on my classroom's shelves mind you, but it would be cool to recommend it to older kids who seem like they'd enjoy it, if the books end up decent.
But here’s a thought.....why not wait to see what the books are actually like? They might cross level cack, overly dependant on the IP to sell. They might become bestsellers and a well regarded series of varied stories with a common background. And rather than my fellow 20-40 something Sad Gits, I’d suggest just handing the book to someone of the target age range with an interest in sci-fi and fantasy, then seeing what they make of it.
Seeing as none of us have actually read the books, I think a lot of the negativity may be due to the cartoony cover art. If only there was an apposite saying regarding this circumstance
Barzam wrote: Let's not forget, Devilman and Fist of the North Star were aimed at kids, too.
That's misleading, at best. The anime were, but they were toned down considerably from their decidedly not-for-kids source material (though still more extreme than kids' stuff today). Now, if you wanted to use something like Michiko-sensei...
streetsamurai wrote: the weapon of the main character is a slingshot. I expect that the most violent thing you will see is a kick to the ass.
It'll be like the old Spider-Man cartoon where the network insisted he wasn't allowed to throw a punch, or like Michaelangelo's Nunchucks in TMNT (or "Hero" over here, as Ninja were not allowed to be heroes) which were also not allowed to be used.
Me? I’ve shown this off to teacher friends and parents of sprogs wot I know. They all seem quite receptive.
See, getting kids to read is 20% encouragement, 80% giving them something they actually want to read.
My parents kicked me off with a The Dandy and the Beano. Then Usborne Choose Your Own Adventure and Ronald Dahl. After that came Fighting Fantasy.
It wasn’t until my GCSE’s where I was given MacBeth (boring), Buddy (its grim up t’north. ‘Is Mam left and ‘is Dad is a drunk), Z for Zacariah (oh noes! Everyone is ded from nuke!) and Empty World (oh noes! Everyone is ded from plague!) that I got turned off reading. Until a combination of Gotrek and Felix and Discworld turned me back on two years later.
If a kid is showing an interest in this hobby, why not produce books suitable for them? I’ve no doubt the more precocious lil’ spuds could handle a BL Library novel - but I’m pretty certain their parents wouldn’t agree.
But these? Best of both worlds. Colourful, eye catching covers. Hopefully compelling (for a kid, not Sad Old Gits) stories, there’s not a great deal can go wrong.
These are an auto-buy for my seven year old daughter. She loves reading and would probably get through these in one or two sittings. Whenever I pop into the local GW store she always comes along with me and shows an interest.
As for people saying the Warhammer worlds are too dark, have you seen what kids are reading these days? Look up the Horrible Histories series to see what I mean.
Marleymoo wrote: These are an auto-buy for my seven year old daughter. She loves reading and would probably get through these in one or two sittings. Whenever I pop into the local GW store she always comes along with me and shows an interest.
As for people saying the Warhammer worlds are too dark, have you seen what kids are reading these days? Look up the Horrible Histories series to see what I mean.
Marleymoo wrote: These are an auto-buy for my seven year old daughter. She loves reading and would probably get through these in one or two sittings. Whenever I pop into the local GW store she always comes along with me and shows an interest.
As for people saying the Warhammer worlds are too dark, have you seen what kids are reading these days? Look up the Horrible Histories series to see what I mean.
We tell our kids stories of old ladies being pushed and cooked inside ovens And wolves who swallow grannies whole only to be torn open by woodsmen with axes
As Highlord Tamburlaine said, Hokuto no Ken was absolutely aimed at kids. Probably kids in their teens, but kids none the less. Yeah, the Devilnan manga wasn't, but the original anime certainly was. Takara even had action figures of him at the time. But, as Highlord Tamburlaine also said, that was Japan and a different point in time, where it was perfectly acceptable to depict a dog's head being ripped off by a psychotic bear and have it thrown at the dog's allies (Ginga Nagareboshi Gin, a true treasure trove of horrifying imagery aimed at kids). So, I suppose then, let's not forget that in the 90s, Aliens, Terminator, Predator, and Starship Troopers were all marketed towards kids, too. Aliens was even going to have a Saturday morning cartoon.
Watership Down - Plague Dogs - Animals of Farthing Wood - kids survived all those (heck most of us here likely experienced at least one or more of those animations whilst growing up).
Only the cartoons, never the movies. Everything was turned into a franchise in the 90's. Rambo, Robocop, Starship Troopers, even Conan had saturday morning cartoons.
Overread wrote: Watership Down - Plague Dogs - Animals of Farthing Wood - kids survived all those (heck most of us here likely experienced at least one or more of those animations whilst growing up).
Lol, I rebember that cartoon. Seems like it was made strictly to traumatise children. Things were so much gangsters in these days
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Only the cartoons, never the movies. Everything was turned into a franchise in the 90's. Rambo, Robocop, Starship Troopers, even Conan had saturday morning cartoons.
Exactly. They were all sanitized, but kept the same themes and feeling of their source material, more or less. They can totally do that here.
I'd totally forgotten about Conan The Adventurer. I used to love that stupid show.
I'm also reminded that Alien was going to have toys based on it. Also, a Nightmare on Elm Street of all things had some toys back in the day, too. Man, what were people thinking?
Out of curiosity what was the first Warhammer literature you've read and how old were you? What sort of an impact did it have on you?
Merely curious as I expect that these stories will have light hearth approach, sharing and flirting with only certain themes of the "adult" franchises. I do think it's possible to write a book in such setting but in our eyes this isn't going to be "our warhammer".
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Only the cartoons, never the movies. Everything was turned into a franchise in the 90's. Rambo, Robocop, Starship Troopers, even Conan had saturday morning cartoons.
Exactly. They were all sanitized, but kept the same themes and feeling of their source material, more or less. They can totally do that here.
I'd totally forgotten about Conan The Adventurer. I used to love that stupid show.
I'm also reminded that Alien was going to have toys based on it. Also, a Nightmare on Elm Street of all things had some toys back in the day, too. Man, what were people thinking?
Alien did have toys based on it. It had and still has waves of toys in fact. Freddy had talking dolls, everything was franchised to hell and back.
But who's to say these books won't keep the feeling of the source material? At this point everyone is, quite literally, judging books by their covers.
Knight wrote: Out of curiosity what was the first Warhammer literature you've read and how old were you? What sort of an impact did it have on you?
Merely curious as I expect that these stories will have light hearth approach, sharing and flirting with only certain themes of the "adult" franchises. I do think it's possible to write a book in such setting but in our eyes this isn't going to be "our warhammer".
Probably Trollslayer.
I’m old enough, yet young enough, to have fallen in that gap between the demise of GW’s publishing wing, and the birth of Black Library. Between those eras, we only had the Codecies, Army Books and Rule Books.
I was playing with Titan Legions for years and never read a book - honestly I think the Grim-Dark is overblown and more in the minds of players than anywhere else.
GW has a gothic art style, but nothing in it is really "scary creepy" in the same way as a horror film. Sure demons and orks are potentially scary; but its scary like fantasy films rather than horror films. Heck its not even in the same league as say films like Hobo with a Shotgun or Machete or even the classic Alien and the chest bursting scene.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Only the cartoons, never the movies. Everything was turned into a franchise in the 90's. Rambo, Robocop, Starship Troopers, even Conan had saturday morning cartoons.
Exactly. They were all sanitized, but kept the same themes and feeling of their source material, more or less. They can totally do that here.
I'd totally forgotten about Conan The Adventurer. I used to love that stupid show.
I'm also reminded that Alien was going to have toys based on it. Also, a Nightmare on Elm Street of all things had some toys back in the day, too. Man, what were people thinking?
Alien did have toys based on it. It had and still has waves of toys in fact. Freddy had talking dolls, everything was franchised to hell and back.
But who's to say these books won't keep the feeling of the source material? At this point everyone is, quite literally, judging books by their covers.
I suggest you read the character bios on the site (https://warhammeradventures.com/). Not one of them fits with the feeling of 40k.
To repeat what someone said on Reddit- I can't wait for the issue where 13 year old Talen is executed by a commissar for abandoning the Astra Militarum. That will be a fun-filled time for the whole family!
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Only the cartoons, never the movies. Everything was turned into a franchise in the 90's. Rambo, Robocop, Starship Troopers, even Conan had saturday morning cartoons.
Exactly. They were all sanitized, but kept the same themes and feeling of their source material, more or less. They can totally do that here.
I'd totally forgotten about Conan The Adventurer. I used to love that stupid show.
I'm also reminded that Alien was going to have toys based on it. Also, a Nightmare on Elm Street of all things had some toys back in the day, too. Man, what were people thinking?
Alien did have toys based on it. It had and still has waves of toys in fact. Freddy had talking dolls, everything was franchised to hell and back.
But who's to say these books won't keep the feeling of the source material? At this point everyone is, quite literally, judging books by their covers.
I suggest you read the character bios on the site (https://warhammeradventures.com/). Not one of them fits with the feeling of 40k.
To repeat what someone said on Reddit- I can't wait for the issue where 13 year old Talen is executed by a commissar for abandoning the Astra Militarum. That will be a fun-filled time for the whole family!
Already have and i have to say, they made me grin in a fun way. In fact i sent the link to my neice and two nephews about half an hour ago and they already want to read them
Well blacker than the blackest black clearly stopped sell well. it limits potential customers and also limits new fluff and models. besides giving the imperium a little bit of hope only makes the fall much more painful.
I disagree. The setting has never been the problem for GW, its the strongest part of the IP. People love it because of how brutal it is. It stopped selling well because 40K has always been a terrible game rules wise, other companies started filling in the missing gaps GW was leaving for them on a competitive level, and GW refused to communicate with their customers. Never mind having a huge cost of entry to many of their games.
GW will probably never reach the scale of something like Star Wars because it isn't Star Wars. Does that mean they should abandon what made it great to begin with just so they can reach that level of profitability?
Lets not turn GW into the History channel. They don't show actual shows about history anymore because it's more profitable to make terrible "reality" shows. Can they honestly call themselves the history channel if they don't show history? Can GW call it 40K if its not a brutal, nihilistic, fantasy opera in space?
That’s actually a very good example of just how much you can get away with with kid’s shows, if you’re cunning.
There, two imperial officers are clearly decapitated - but none of it is seen, and there’s no double clunk as the heads hit the floor.
Also, consider this scene from Clone Wars.
It’s pretty brutal, for a kids show. Spesh when the flamethrowers are called up. None of us can be blasted. None of us ever risk a lightsaber to the face. But being set on fire and burning to death?
Barzam wrote: As Highlord Tamburlaine said, Hokuto no Ken was absolutely aimed at kids. Probably kids in their teens, but kids none the less. Yeah, the Devilnan manga wasn't, but the original anime certainly was. Takara even had action figures of him at the time. But, as Highlord Tamburlaine also said, that was Japan and a different point in time, where it was perfectly acceptable to depict a dog's head being ripped off by a psychotic bear and have it thrown at the dog's allies (Ginga Nagareboshi Gin, a true treasure trove of horrifying imagery aimed at kids). So, I suppose then, let's not forget that in the 90s, Aliens, Terminator, Predator, and Starship Troopers were all marketed towards kids, too. Aliens was even going to have a Saturday morning cartoon.
See, I think that is very misleading. In the 70s and early 80s, there wasn't really age distinctions being made about the material being created. There wasn't a rating system, nor even broadcast standards really, and a lot of these titles didn't push boundaries because there were no boundaries to be pushed (a lot of the material made during this time, such as Go Nagai's Harenchi Gakuen, ended up defining the standards). Stuff like Hokuto no Ken wasn't made for an audience of children, but children read them - just like Aliens and Predator weren't made for children, but children watched them. Hell, as a 12 year old, I loved slasher films and there's no way that Friday the 13th was aimed at 12 year olds.
And Roughnecks, the Starship Troopers cartoon, was amazing. It was tonally appropriate for children, but it was definitely something that was probably more aimed at people who watched the movie and read the novel (aka older teens and adults).
I think most people here think the Warhammer Adventures books are going to be more like the Robocop cartoon than Roughnecks. Who knows? Maybe it will surprise everybody, but when people create material specifically for children, they tend to underestimate their capabilities and intelligence.
It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us.
It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us
It might not. I understand we aren't it's intended audience.
This could be a good move to bring in fresh blood for the Imperial war machine.
All I'm saying is that it's a slippery slope. One I feel we are already sliding down.
Children as protagonists in 40k could work extremely well to uncover the sheer horror, fanaticism and misery of that setting, if handled like the Swedish author Olov Svedelid handled his historical novels for children. He wrote for adults as well, and they were filled with lurid, shocking, bloody and oppressive bits to boot, with filth and stern harshness and disease and hunger shining through. His books for children were no less true and harsh than his books for adults, just written from child's perspective:
You had a protagonist whose valiant and sympathetic peasant father participated in a revolt against the crown, and thus getting beheaded at the end of the book while the protagonist lived. You had a boy seeing all his male kinsmen slaughtered in the massacre that was the battle of Visby, waking in a shallow mass grave to a sunny day at the end of the book after passing out unconscious from some glancing mace blow or another. You had another boy whose sister got hired as a servant at the royal castle, becoming the mad king's mistress, whereupon the boy got hired as well, being led as a participant and informer into a net of intrigue and torture as an apprentice to a Machiavellian advisor to the king. No happy ending there! In another book, the protagonist was smacked hard by his stern father while the two were out foraging for food in war-torn Poland; the father went through the ice and drowned right at the start of the novel, leaving his son with that stark memory in mind for the march across the Belts. These are all books filled with drunkenness, violence, mice, rats, lice, filth, savage ravages of raiding, blood baths, executions, torture, medical unanaesthetized amputation, starvation, beset armies freezing to death in snow storms, plots, lies, fear, poverty, crime, rowdy soldiers, attention to detail, completely faithful worldview for the times concerned, pomp and majesty, brilliant colourful descriptions and utter realism. War, disease and hunger for power are all revealed in their raw nature, all seen through children's eyes. Good books to grow up by, and hardening stories.
A pity they've never been translated into English, because I wish I could point you to English translations.
Something of the kind would be perfect for 40k. An author like Matthew Farrer could handle it without trouble. Not that I expect the adventure books here to be of the kind (they might be fun enough in a more lighthearted wish fulfilment way, who knows?), but just mentioning: Children as protagonists in 40k is not a stupid concept in and of itself.
It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us
It might not. I understand we aren't it's intended audience.
This could be a good move to bring in fresh blood for the Imperial war machine.
All I'm saying is that it's a slippery slope. One I feel we are already sliding down.
How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?
How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?
Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.
The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.
How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?
Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.
The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.
As others have said, there's plenty of space in both GW worlds for more family friendly stories to be told.
Is there though? I mean, sure, there nothing actively preventing it being done, but how do you tell a story aimed at kids that young and have it connect to a broader reality like 40K in any meaningful way? 40K consists of a galaxy-spanning fascist theocratic super-bureaucracy and the many even worse things that are trying to destroy and and devour the flesh and/or souls of its subjects. In order to even approach "family friendly" you'll have to pick a pretty vanilla "civilised" classified world and zoom in so far on it that it would just be like a bunch of kids cosplaying 40K characters on our planet right now, except every adult they met went along with the fiction.
You can hit "young adult" within the thematic and tonal range of 40K fairly easily these days(in fact other than in the quality of the actual prose it's been rare for BL novels to stretch much beyond YA for a fair long while now), but an actual book for wee kids? You'd have to jettison everything that makes the setting what it is, or else make something wildly inappropriate for their age. You could get away with it for AoS because the tone it strikes is quite different, but 40K is not Star Wars, the reason you can have stuff for the kiddies that feeds right into that setting is that fundamentally the films are also family friendly affairs, there are no rape-gods or slaughter-gods or aliens who're essentially a physical embodiment of entropy coming to eat you alive and digest you in acid, and the "good guys" are, mostly, actually good people and even a lot of the baddies have good intentions, rather than the general garbage-ness of humanity and their foes in 40K.
Most of us grew up with stories like this, be it in the form of books, movies, or games.
I don't recall any of the Saturday morning cartoons or children's books I consumed as a wee boy leading into anything even remotely like 40K. They were either aimed at that demographic in their entirety, or they led into Disney-style family friendly fare with slightly more narrative complexity, not a lovecraftian horror or organisation dedicated to bigotry, hatred, and torture in sight.
These are books aimed at 8-12 year old kids, who will almost certainly already be showing an interest in the game worlds.
Why wouldn’t a company want to tap that vein? Since when was diversifying a bad thing? Or become this nebulous ‘probably means whatever he wants it to mean) brand dilution?
See, when I was an 8-12 year old kid showing interest in the game worlds, I read the army books and the novels about the game world. Because the game world, the 40K and WHF settings, dark and 'orrible as they are, were the appeal, and the idea of being given a neutered version with the safety locks on would have completely turned me off because it defeats the purpose of progressing from that kind of "for kids" material to something more mature(for an 8-12 year old).
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this
Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.
Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.
How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?
Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.
The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.
To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.
Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this
Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.
Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this
Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.
Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.
How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?
Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.
The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.
To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.
Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.
Fair enough. I apologize for my earlier remark, Brutus.
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this
Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.
Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.
Silly you. If you don't like every single thing that GW the beneficent does, the only sensible thing is to immediately throw away everything you ever bought from them, cause you are entitled, a whiner and you are NOT worthy
Brutus_Apex wrote: Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.
But the old Marines are not doomed (except to be replaced on the shelves by Primaris equivalents over the next couple years)? Nor does the Primaris gene seed remove any significant flaws in the stock Marine gene seed(because there aren't any significant flaws in most Marine gene seed strains except perhaps the Blood Angels. Marines are not Thunder Warriors)?
Most of us grew up with stories like this, be it in the form of books, movies, or games.
I don't recall any of the Saturday morning cartoons or children's books I consumed as a wee boy leading into anything even remotely like 40K. They were either aimed at that demographic in their entirety, or they led into Disney-style family friendly fare with slightly more narrative complexity, not a lovecraftian horror or organisation dedicated to bigotry, hatred, and torture in sight.
These are books aimed at 8-12 year old kids, who will almost certainly already be showing an interest in the game worlds.
Why wouldn’t a company want to tap that vein? Since when was diversifying a bad thing? Or become this nebulous ‘probably means whatever he wants it to mean) brand dilution?
See, when I was an 8-12 year old kid showing interest in the game worlds, I read the army books and the novels about the game world. Because the game world, the 40K and WHF settings, dark and 'orrible as they are, were the appeal, and the idea of being given a neutered version with the safety locks on would have completely turned me off because it defeats the purpose of progressing from that kind of "for kids" material to something more mature(for an 8-12 year old).
The pyrdian chrnonicles (not the Disney version) was pretty damn dark. I still think Tallarn the wanderer(5th book of the series) should be required reading in Jr. High.
Secret of Nimh was dark, political, and pretty much made to scare US children into becoming democrats.
There was the battletech cartoon. People just failed to die despite massive amounts of firepower and explosions happening in their faces. It was pretty PC except the whole 'don't trust the jap' theme they had going. I have fond memories of it and wish I had one of those toys they made.
I'm going to wait and see on this. I suspect a few teens are in for a huge shock when they transition, but don't they already have that with Star Wars and LOTR?
Needs more space marines. As far back as I remember I was always drawn to big action, monsters and heroes. Put a space marine on the cover punching an ork to get the kid to pick it up and look at it.
How? How are we already on s slippy slope already?
Anything involving Primaris is pretty much a good example of moving away from decent background. Eliminating the flaws in the Space Marines is idiotic, considering that is what makes them interesting in the first place. It's the tragedy that they are all doomed and so is humanity.
The complete dumbing down of the game on a rules level re: 40k 8th ed. and AOS.
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this.
DakkaDakka exists on the premise that ceasing to play a game should have no bearing on discussing it
You should stop playing 40k then if you feel like this
Yep, I'm going to throw away 15 years of collections, thousands of dollars and hours of painting because you told me to.
Conversely, maybe you should stop playing because your opinion and general idea of what you think 40K is and should be runs completely against what 40k is through decades of established canon and dilutes a great IP.
To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.
Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.
First off, Cracked has been gak for years now, and turning to them for advice on how to live your life is like turning to a meth addict for how to live drug free.
Second, you have control and responsibility over your children. You do not have control or responsibility over your entertainment. They are owned and operated by their organizations and creators, and you don't get to do jack gak about that. You can't take it from them. You can make suggestions, but they can ignore you. You can not buy it out of protest, but unless enough people share your outrage, it won't change anything. The only avenue available to you to is find something else that you do enjoy, and stop fixating on the perceived flaws and failures of that which you don't.
There's this thing called the "sunk cost fallacy", which basically means that your investments (emotional and financial) make it difficult, if not impossible, to make the best decision concerning your continued investment in a product. In other words, spending hundreds of dollars on models and thousands of hours painting them end up making you unwilling to write off that cost and move on. Then you just sort of sit there, all bitter and angry, because the thing you want and the thing you have aren't the same, and your sunk cost just gets you into a resentful loop where that bitterness and anger just magnifies over time when the simple and obvious solution is staring you in the face the entire time.
Warhammer isn't your kids. It's somebody else's. And if they do something foolish that pisses you off, don't play with them.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Needs more space marines. As far back as I remember I was always drawn to big action, monsters and heroes. Put a space marine on the cover punching an ork to get the kid to pick it up and look at it.
It has Space Marines listed - want to guess the chapter?
To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.
Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.
First off, Cracked has been gak for years now, and turning to them for advice on how to live your life is like turning to a meth addict for how to live drug free.
Second, you have control and responsibility over your children. You do not have control or responsibility over your entertainment. They are owned and operated by their organizations and creators, and you don't get to do jack gak about that. You can't take it from them. You can make suggestions, but they can ignore you. You can not buy it out of protest, but unless enough people share your outrage, it won't change anything. The only avenue available to you to is find something else that you do enjoy, and stop fixating on the perceived flaws and failures of that which you don't.
There's this thing called the "sunk cost fallacy", which basically means that your investments (emotional and financial) make it difficult, if not impossible, to make the best decision concerning your continued investment in a product. In other words, spending hundreds of dollars on models and thousands of hours painting them end up making you unwilling to write off that cost and move on. Then you just sort of sit there, all bitter and angry, because the thing you want and the thing you have aren't the same, and your sunk cost just gets you into a resentful loop where that bitterness and anger just magnifies over time when the simple and obvious solution is staring you in the face the entire time.
Warhammer isn't your kids. It's somebody else's. And if they do something foolish that pisses you off, don't play with them.
To quote an article from Cracked. that I dredged up recently.
Anytime someone takes to social media or just has a discussion about what they don't like about a show, inevitably the haterade crew will pop up with their insightful remarks. "You're just a hater. If you don't like it, don't watch it." This misses the point entirely. A more dramatic reading of this is like saying if your kid does something foolish and pisses you off, you should kick them out since you don't like them.
That's not what's happening at all. It's precisely because you do like a show or a movie that you get frustrated when dumb-fethery is afoot. You're emotionally invested in the characters and storyline and it upsets you, even if it's a little silly to say so, when the characters are subjected to something idiotic.
First off, Cracked has been gak for years now, and turning to them for advice on how to live your life is like turning to a meth addict for how to live drug free.
Second, you have control and responsibility over your children. You do not have control or responsibility over your entertainment. They are owned and operated by their organizations and creators, and you don't get to do jack gak about that. You can't take it from them. You can make suggestions, but they can ignore you. You can not buy it out of protest, but unless enough people share your outrage, it won't change anything. The only avenue available to you to is find something else that you do enjoy, and stop fixating on the perceived flaws and failures of that which you don't.
There's this thing called the "sunk cost fallacy", which basically means that your investments (emotional and financial) make it difficult, if not impossible, to make the best decision concerning your continued investment in a product. In other words, spending hundreds of dollars on models and thousands of hours painting them end up making you unwilling to write off that cost and move on. Then you just sort of sit there, all bitter and angry, because the thing you want and the thing you have aren't the same, and your sunk cost just gets you into a resentful loop where that bitterness and anger just magnifies over time when the simple and obvious solution is staring you in the face the entire time.
Warhammer isn't your kids. It's somebody else's. And if they do something foolish that pisses you off, don't play with them.
Kool aid is delicious, don't you agree?
I think you may have gotten lost. 4chan and general posting is over in that >> general direction.
One could bring popcorn and watch this thread unfold as evening entertainment.
I see no danger here since it is unlikely to influence the background proper. Expand the franchise or die. Mayhap GW and its filials are working more and more after the scattershot or spaghetti principle: Throw pasta on the wall and see what sticks, then develop that further (cf. the many licenses sold to various game developers and the plethora of hit-or-miss games it has led to). A dud is a dud and quickly forgotten. A success lives on by virtue of quality.
The 40K side of that picture has not a single weapon in it, and whilst the guy brandishing the girder is amusing, I don't know how one could do a 40K story that didn't involve violence and weapons in some way.
But hey, can't judge something just on one picture, so let's look at the website and the character profiles...
The New Website wrote:Sharing her mum's hatred of weaponry...
Ah! So there we are.
The television show Clone Wars was a schizophrenic show that could never quite decide if it was an kid show or an adult show, and whilst is got pretty solidly darker in its final two years one thing it never shied away from, not even in its first episode, was the truth that it was a cartoon about a war. I don't think this kind of reduction helps 40K.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Needs more space marines. As far back as I remember I was always drawn to big action, monsters and heroes. Put a space marine on the cover punching an ork to get the kid to pick it up and look at it.
It has Space Marines listed - want to guess the chapter?
I don't know man that's a tough one! There are just so many options you can go with! I am going to take a radical guess though and put money on a real outlier choice.
I'll take Ultrmarines for $500, Bob.
Edit: Come to think of it I really want to see a jamaican salamander who is always hugging people and being an overly nice guy.
Y'all weren't watching/ reading the good stuff then, that's all I can say.
Remember Inhumanoids? Mighty Max? There was some serious dark and disturbing motifs running through both shows, where things did not go well for protagonists despite the bright colors and toy line cash ins.
While the lore and back story to both were very grimdark and overtly Lovecraftian at itmes in their attempts by man to thwart things beyond mortal comprehension, a lot of that was under the surface and yet plainly there for all to see.
I remember being quite disturbed by Inhumanoids as a child.
I distinctly remember a point in my childhood where I got sick of cartoons, even violent ones, having no consequences. No one ever got hurt, no matter how many laserblasts or explosions occurred on screen. The closest we ever got to permanence was the Transformers movie, where they killed a bunch of characters, but I was likely too young for that to have as big an effect on me as it did others of the time.
For me the wakeup call was when I saw Robotech for the first time one morning before school. There was a big battle, people died. Casualty reports came through. Hundreds were dying. I was shocked. What on earth was I watching? Characters were not making it out alive? How is this happening in a cartoon?
It was difficult to take "violent" cartoons seriously after that.
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: I see no danger here since it is unlikely to influence the background proper. Expand the franchise or die.
There's nothing wrong with this, and as a concept there is nothing wrong with doing a younger-slanted version of Warhammer/Warhammer 40,000.
But everything indicates that this will be a deathless/minimal violence endeavour. The main character in the 40K one hates weapons.
More than willing to be wrong. Clone Wars introduced a character that everyone instantly hated because she just didn't fit who, over the course of 5 years, become one of the most beloved Star Wars characters of all time, and someone that made me shout with joy whenever she showed up in Rebels. This could happen here.
But right now we have a 40K story where the three main characters have not a weapon between them. In Warhammer 40,000!!!
So what happens if they encounter nightmare fuel like chaos, nids and necrons? If one of them doesn't experience berserk level (as in the manga) trauma within the first encounter, or if there is a lack of severed heads and flayed skins, I'll be very disappointed.
Wh40k is meant to be an over the top cruel and brutal universe. Trying to go the kid friendly approach like this doesn't fit.
It needs to be like, idk, Made in Abyss or Oliver Twist or something.
I just don’t understand why, these days, anything written for children has to have children as its main characters. When I was a kids all of my favourite things (Doctor Who, Star Wars, Space 1999, Star Trek) were about grownups.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So what happens if they encounter nightmare fuel like chaos, nids and necrons?
If one of them doesn't experience berserk level (as in the manga) trauma within the first encounter, or if there is a disappointing lack of severed heads and flayed skins, I'll be very disappointed.
Wh40k is meant to be an over the top cruel and brutal universe. Trying to go the kid friendly approach like this doesn't fit.
It needs to be like, idk, Made in Abyss or Oliver Twist or something.
Id be disappointed if there isnt some kinda rock off against noisemarines with the old guitar guns where the kids need to use the power of friendship and the emperor to beat them.
40k was and is a silly game at its heart. things changed from the silly 80s humor to the 90-00 edge lord grimdark, its 2018 the age of pandas. its all par for the course.
Why do they hate that person who looks different? I don't know, they just do.
What's a heretic? Just keep reading.
But, the kids helped the Inq find the heretic, why are they being taken away from their families? Best not to ask.
There's a long tradition of British kids' books plotted round suspicion of the lower orders, foreigners and artistic types. Enid Blyton's Famous Five stories might as well all have been called "Five dob in a Gipsy"
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So what happens if they encounter nightmare fuel like chaos, nids and necrons? If one of them doesn't experience berserk level (as in the manga) trauma within the first encounter, or if there is a disappointing lack of severed heads and flayed skins, I'll be very disappointed.
Wh40k is meant to be an over the top cruel and brutal universe. Trying to go the kid friendly approach like this doesn't fit.
It needs to be like, idk, Made in Abyss or Oliver Twist or something.
Id be disappointed if there isnt some kinda rock off against noisemarines with the old guitar guns where the kids need to use the power of friendship and the emperor to beat them.
40k was and is a silly game at its heart. things changed from the silly 80s humor to the 90-00 edge lord grimdark, its 2018 the age of pandas. its all par for the course.
Only if the penalty for losing the rock off is that they become the Dark God's play things for all eternity a la Tenacious D.
I'd argue that even in the silly times it was pretty messed up. The Rogue Trader cover had an ork's severed head, another bit of art had a marine getting absolutely exploded and the overall art style was gritty and bleak. Silly =/= happy go lucky antics. Dark humor and over the top violence can be silly too. Just look at the Black Knight scene from Monty Python.
The discussion surrounding this has really brought out the worst in some of the community. Genuinely unpleasant.
In comparison the discussion here has been fairly good, with those who like and dislike it being mainly amicable. So thank you for everyone here for not being gits
As for my own thoughts, I understand the business case for it. I don't think the brand will be hurt (I don't think Marvel/DC are forced to compromise their adult stories with the inclusion of kid friendly stories).
Lots of firmly adult franchises had kid cartoons (to different levels of success) so don't see an issue with the adaptation of a kid unfriendly setting for a kids book (Just look at robocop! How that was appropriate for a cartoon was crazy!).
I don't there is going to be zero violence, the Space Marine is clearly armed and a part of the story. The Necrons will almost certainly be destroyed, just not by the children.
Overall it will amount to a storm in a teacup. Nothing will change apart from the booklines existence (which may or may not continue) and everyone will stop talking about it after a short time.
Lots of firmly adult franchises had kid cartoons (to different levels of success) so don't see an issue with the adaptation of a kid unfriendly setting for a kids book (Just look at robocop! How that was appropriate for a cartoon was crazy!).
Wasn't the cartoon terrible? I think that's the problem with such adaptations; they are usually badly produced cash grabs that crap over their source.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I distinctly remember a point in my childhood where I got sick of cartoons, even violent ones, having no consequences. No one ever got hurt, no matter how many laserblasts or explosions occurred on screen. The closest we ever got to permanence was the Transformers movie, where they killed a bunch of characters, but I was likely too young for that to have as big an effect on me as it did others of the time.
For me the wakeup call was when I saw Robotech for the first time one morning before school. There was a big battle, people died. Casualty reports came through. Hundreds were dying. I was shocked. What on earth was I watching? Characters were not making it out alive? How is this happening in a cartoon?
It was difficult to take "violent" cartoons seriously after that.
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: I see no danger here since it is unlikely to influence the background proper. Expand the franchise or die.
There's nothing wrong with this, and as a concept there is nothing wrong with doing a younger-slanted version of Warhammer/Warhammer 40,000.
But everything indicates that this will be a deathless/minimal violence endeavour. The main character in the 40K one hates weapons.
More than willing to be wrong. Clone Wars introduced a character that everyone instantly hated because she just didn't fit who, over the course of 5 years, become one of the most beloved Star Wars characters of all time, and someone that made me shout with joy whenever she showed up in Rebels. This could happen here.
But right now we have a 40K story where the three main characters have not a weapon between them. In Warhammer 40,000!!!
I feel like that part will be interesting to explore. The 40k universe is big and diverse, but yet people tend to not think of the people in the Imperium as such. I'm not talking about diversity in a matter of culture, but a matter of ideas. Why not Imperial citizens have a disdain for weapons? Out of the billions and billions of people that live within the Imperium, not one of them hating weapons seems very dumb and almost weird.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I distinctly remember a point in my childhood where I got sick of cartoons, even violent ones, having no consequences. No one ever got hurt, no matter how many laserblasts or explosions occurred on screen. The closest we ever got to permanence was the Transformers movie, where they killed a bunch of characters, but I was likely too young for that to have as big an effect on me as it did others of the time.
For me the wakeup call was when I saw Robotech for the first time one morning before school. There was a big battle, people died. Casualty reports came through. Hundreds were dying. I was shocked. What on earth was I watching? Characters were not making it out alive? How is this happening in a cartoon?
It was difficult to take "violent" cartoons seriously after that.
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: I see no danger here since it is unlikely to influence the background proper. Expand the franchise or die.
There's nothing wrong with this, and as a concept there is nothing wrong with doing a younger-slanted version of Warhammer/Warhammer 40,000.
But everything indicates that this will be a deathless/minimal violence endeavour. The main character in the 40K one hates weapons.
More than willing to be wrong. Clone Wars introduced a character that everyone instantly hated because she just didn't fit who, over the course of 5 years, become one of the most beloved Star Wars characters of all time, and someone that made me shout with joy whenever she showed up in Rebels. This could happen here.
But right now we have a 40K story where the three main characters have not a weapon between them. In Warhammer 40,000!!!
I feel like that part will be interesting to explore. The 40k universe is big and diverse, but yet people tend to not think of the people in the Imperium as such. I'm not talking about diversity in a matter of culture, but a matter of ideas. Why not Imperial citizens have a disdain for weapons? Out of the billions and billions of people that live within the Imperium, not one of them hating weapons seems very dumb and almost weird.
Eh, it depends. If they never leave their agriworld it would make sense, but if they go offworld then having a weapon is pretty much mandatory because of how dangerous it is out there. Actually, a series about life on an agriworld might be interesting. Could be about fauna, economy, some adventures about, idk, a missing grox or something. How harsh are agriworlds compared to other imperial worlds? I'd imagine they are much safer to live in than Hive Worlds or Forge Worlds.
Eh, it depends. If they never leave their agriworld it would make sense, but if they go offworld then having a weapon is pretty much mandatory because of how dangerous it is out there.
Actually, a kids series about life on an agriworld might be interesting. Could be about fauna, economy, some adventures about, idk, a missing grox or something.
There is a difference between using a weapon for protection and loving weapons in general.
Eh, it depends. If they never leave their agriworld it would make sense, but if they go offworld then having a weapon is pretty much mandatory because of how dangerous it is out there.
Actually, a kids series about life on an agriworld might be interesting. Could be about fauna, economy, some adventures about, idk, a missing grox or something.
There is a difference between using a weapon for protection and loving weapons in general.
What if its a growing up story where the kids need to come to grips with the fact that they must do a thing to survive even if they hate it.
Eh, it depends. If they never leave their agriworld it would make sense, but if they go offworld then having a weapon is pretty much mandatory because of how dangerous it is out there.
Actually, a kids series about life on an agriworld might be interesting. Could be about fauna, economy, some adventures about, idk, a missing grox or something.
There is a difference between using a weapon for protection and loving weapons in general.
What if its a growing up story where the kids need to come to grips with the fact that they must do a thing to survive even if they hate it.
Eh, it depends. If they never leave their agriworld it would make sense, but if they go offworld then having a weapon is pretty much mandatory because of how dangerous it is out there. Actually, a kids series about life on an agriworld might be interesting. Could be about fauna, economy, some adventures about, idk, a missing grox or something.
There is a difference between using a weapon for protection and loving weapons in general.
What if its a growing up story where the kids need to come to grips with the fact that they must do a thing to survive even if they hate it.
Yeah, that would be more like it. That's a theme in Made in Abyss.
This could be very interesting, my kids are a few years too young but it would be fun giving them something like this when they get older. Of course it could also be complete crap like much children’s fiction. Also now I want minis and rules for those kids, let’s put them up against some real 40k grimdark on the tabletop
Eh, it depends. If they never leave their agriworld it would make sense, but if they go offworld then having a weapon is pretty much mandatory because of how dangerous it is out there.
Actually, a kids series about life on an agriworld might be interesting. Could be about fauna, economy, some adventures about, idk, a missing grox or something.
There is a difference between using a weapon for protection and loving weapons in general.
What if its a growing up story where the kids need to come to grips with the fact that they must do a thing to survive even if they hate it.
The end justifies the means. Inquisition loves that phrase!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am definitely buying in. If it's good, great. If it's terrible, even better because it will be hilarious. This might just replace the Star Trek TNG/X-Men crossover novel Planet X as the best ridiculous book to pull out at parties.
Oh god, I read that. It was terrible.
Anyway, this is So Crazy (In mean, honestly, it's bonkers) that it Just Might Work
Lots of firmly adult franchises had kid cartoons (to different levels of success) so don't see an issue with the adaptation of a kid unfriendly setting for a kids book (Just look at robocop! How that was appropriate for a cartoon was crazy!).
Wasn't the cartoon terrible? I think that's the problem with such adaptations; they are usually badly produced cash grabs that crap over their source.
Yes, and I agree, but they're not the end of the world and quick fade out of existence again.
I also think (and distinctly remember thinking as a kid) that that kind of stuff aimed at kids was condescendingly naive (no consequences and all that). I get a whiff of that with this too. Seems the more things change the more they stay the same ha!
It would be hilarious if this whole thing was a massive attempt at trolling by GW, and in the first volume some really screwed up stuff happens to the main characters. Sort of like what Urobutcher did with Madoka Magika "You thought it was going to be a cutesy magical girl anime, but it was actually nightmare fuel!"
I don't think they would have the nerve to try that though.
I'm an old guy. I grew up during the 1980s when all the moral busybodies were attacking children's entertainment on all fronts because - right or wrong - there was a lot of inappropriate material marketed towards children. Was a lot of the outrage overblown? Most definitely. But there was inappropriate material marketed towards kids and that did negatively affect public perception of the industries (comics, cartoons/movies, gaming, music) from those who didn't know better. I'm not saying I agree with those people. I'm not saying what they did was right. I don't agree with censorship and I'm a strong proponent of free speech and expression.
I'm just saying that, sometimes, expanding your market to include children can have negative consequences that may be unforeseen. I don't consider myself a prude or a moral busybody. However, 40K's fluff, lore, and absurdist satirizing of mature themes are generally NOT child-friendly. Exposing children to a watered-down version of that fluff has two detrimental effects - one upon the lore itself and one upon the young reader and their parents. For the lore, it dilutes many of the themes and atmosphere that make 40K, as a concept, so interesting. For the reader, it is deceptive, as many of those themes may not be suitable for younger children.
Can you imagine the gakstorm that will ensue after normie kids read this, get heavily invested, pester their parents to buy them into actual 40K, and then coming across the ACTUAL lore and fluff?
I just worry we may see a Satanic Panic version 2.0
This is the 41st millennium... shouldn't those kids be at work at a corpse starch farm, or a munitions factory, instead of gallavanting around the galaxy?
At least spend the minimum effort and join a gang, you juves.
So, this is a cute, family-friendly version of 40k with everything objectionable removed. No intolerance, no nasty traditionalism, only official military forces need guns... but it's still cool for one of our heroes to be a member of a violent gang before puberty?
That could be a sign that this isn't as sanitised as I fear, just idiocy on the writer's part or some messed up priorities.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I just don’t understand why, these days, anything written for children has to have children as its main characters. When I was a kids all of my favourite things (Doctor Who, Star Wars, Space 1999, Star Trek) were about grownups.
They weren't written for kids, they were written for kids, they were written to appeal to a wide audience. You look at old school horror and sci-fi and it looks campy as hell but at the time they could be very advanced and deal with real world concerns like the danger of nuclear war. Star Trek dealt with a lot of social issues, Star Wars was a spectical like Avatar was a few years ago, and even a show like Lost in Space was a favorite of my Grandfather who was a WWII combat vet. They're all a call back to pulp novels and radio shows which were made to appeal to the masses.
Why make stories about kid heroes? Because it's proven to market well towards younger audiences. There is a reason why super heroes got teen sidekicks, it sold really well and spread to very popular heroes like Spider-Man and the XMen. SW had a Jedi Academy series for kids about the Solo kids and others being trained by Luke in the EU. Harry Potter was definitely a kids series. While adults can and do enjoy these things, they are definitely marketed to children.
I am concerned that the presentation of violence and prejudice in 40k isn't the best without some education in the realities of things like war and oppression. I mean a cartoon like Exo Squad did an excellent job of telling an actual war story despite mostly being a vehicle to push toys. 40k is coming from the opposite direction which is harder dial back down without going with going "it's a different setting where a Commisar won't execute all three kids out of hand".
Do you think they'll be publishing Our Friend Promethium, with brightly-coloured illustrations of Pyrus the Flame burning heretics to death any time soon?
They are doing it wrong... it should start off in a Schola Progenium. Henry wants to be a Commissar. Hermie knows all the prayers against chaos, Ran has a mind for tactical simulations. Etc.
Then a dark menacing chaos dude threatens the Schola Progenium. This Chaos Lord killed Henry's parents and want to subvert Hogwarts... I mean... the Schola Progenium.
You could even call the first book Henry Prometheus and the Farseer's Stone.
Grinshanks wrote: The discussion surrounding this has really brought out the worst in some of the community. Genuinely unpleasant.
What happened?
Wait maybe don't tell me. Things are nice enough here no need to make my opinion of humanity even worse .
ImAGeek wrote: It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us.
Yeah, that's what scares me: it's going to affect kids .
I mean sure they'll survive, but I'm not sure it's a good idea.
I mean, what's next? Children version of Oglaf lol ?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That’s actually a very good example of just how much you can get away with with kid’s shows, if you’re cunning.
There, two imperial officers are clearly decapitated - but none of it is seen, and there’s no double clunk as the heads hit the floor.
Also, consider this scene from Clone Wars.
It’s pretty brutal, for a kids show. Spesh when the flamethrowers are called up. None of us can be blasted. None of us ever risk a lightsaber to the face. But being set on fire and burning to death?
the star wars animted shows have always been when you step back and think, pretty violent. I can't help but contrast clone wars to say GI Joe when I was a kid
Lord Castellan wrote: Do you think they'll be publishing Our Friend Promethium, with brightly-coloured illustrations of Pyrus the Flame burning heretics to death any time soon?
Something like this would have been great. Or the adventures of a newly annointed Commisar who happens to have attracted the attention of a slightly crazy Caryatid (something similar to the stories of commisar cain, which would have translated pretty well to a kid comic).
They seems to have gone for the bland, ultra pc route. What I find weird, is that it seems that nearly all the characters hate violence. Considering that 40k is an ultra violent setting, I wonder how good of an instroduction to the setting this will be (unless they go with a growing up angle, where the characters realise that violence is inevitable, but I doubt they will).
Makes as much sense as trying to introduce someone to sadomasochism by making him read some books exalting the virtue of chastity
Right now we're literally judging the books by their covers. It's quite possible the artwork doesn't really match the stories. I'd like to at least read a sample chapter or something.
When I was that age I got into HeroQuest, which was certainly a lighter, more heroic, kid-friendly derivative of (late 80s) Warhammer. But not by that much. I mean the cover still looked like this.
Also HQ wasn't branded as a Warhammer game and wasn't actually set in that universe, so that made things a lot less awkward. Not to mention we didn't have the internet yet and couldn't google "Fimir".
So one of the sigmar guys grew up a slave, forced to fight to survive. One of the 40k characters ran away to escape enforced conscription as a 14 year old. The art describing the 40k universe has a skull centre frame.
I don't think they are shying away from the central themes of the games that much.
I don't know guys. If one of the three Age of Sigmar protagonists (You know, the "light" universe of the two)...
Was born in a fething slave camp as a slave... I believe they will keep some of the undertones of the universe. And, by the way, the main baddies of the W40K one will be necrons. You know, its okay to destroy robots and make them explode. They don't bleed.
I notice a lot of the comments are specifically about the 40k book, not so much the AoS book. And, to be frank, I think that's pretty fair.
40k is just so much more dark and dense than AoS is (which with the current Malign Portents stuff going on, is pretty grim in and of itself), and the characters just dont..... seem to work for me. A Martian Boy/Techkid, a Ganger Kid Runaway who hasn't been put to work by the bigger and meaner gangers, and (I actually have problems with this one) a Child Explorer who accompanies her mother around the galaxy.
Those three would require astounding circumstances to be in the same place, at the same time, forced together by some Necron-y shenanigans, and then go through enough that they could survive to come out alive and 'friends' in a universe like this. I not saying it can't be done, but bloody hell I want to know what sort of gymnastics the writer is going to do.
Speaking of which, do we know anything relevant about the writers?
The only thing I fear is that if this line is successful it could start infecting the main parts of the company. Like a slow disease tearing apart a universe I've loved for so long and reducing it to a babbling Disney Channel pile of garbage.
You all better hope this fails miserably. Because if this makes a bunch of money then this i they way they WILL go. Of that I have no doubt.
I'm laughing so hard at the idea.
I'm not opposed to 40k books for kids, but when I think of the universe at large I cannot but picture sleepless kids after the description of gauss weapons impacting on the IS (giant space sander anyone?) or sleepless parents after realizing what the Chaos marines really do now that little Timmy is hooked to 40k.
I actually like the idea of this. When i think 40K for kids my mental peg is stuff like Robotech, which blew my 10 year old mind cause people were dying. Big difference from GI Joe, Mask, etc
What i think might be jarring is a kid really gets into these and falls in love with the setting . Then in a few years decides to try 'grown up 40k' and picks up something like Daemon World / Storm of Iron / Fulgrim haha. Big jump from people dying -> the nihilism of existence
Chikout wrote: So one of the sigmar guys grew up a slave, forced to fight to survive. One of the 40k characters ran away to escape enforced conscription as a 14 year old. The art describing the 40k universe has a skull centre frame.
I don't think they are shying away from the central themes of the games that much.
Which is... kinda a different problem? Then again if these are more YA than actual kid's books I could see that working fine. Admittedly I was reading Stephen King and the Hannibal Lector novels in middle school so I'm not positive exactly sure if my idea of what is and isn't suitable for YA matches up with the rest of the world.
Still... those look like covers for children's books, not YA. And I really don't think the warhammer universe needs introduction to anyone who isn't at least a teen, even if they just barely qualify as such.
Chopstick wrote: Poor Darkoath Chieftain, once a hero that conquer the Silver Tower, now only a barbarian goon on par with a low rank SE soldier
Whether this is good or bad, this is actually what I’m happy about - sort of.
It means the Darkoath are coming.
Proper, old-skool barbarian models shall soon* be mine!
LOVED painting the chieftain and the warqueen...
Dunno about you guys but I’m starting to get a feeling that the highly detailed posable gaming sculptures of magic super space warriors that I’ve played with since I was a child may in fact be..........toys!
More seriously, let’s be honest, most here are not necessarily target market, but who knows, they could be good. In terms of tone, as others have pointed out ‘kids stories’ can cover an awful lot - Warhorse is on the curriculum in schools, after all (or at least my kids one) and it’s not the only example (and to Mad Doc, to go back a bit I feel so sorry for you that you had an English teacher who made a tale of dark occultism, murder, violent usurpation and unhinged madness dull, but then is is a problem with Shakespeare in schools - I suppose I got lucky looking back, much as I didn’t have a big opinion of my teacher at the time).
It’s unlikely to affect the main lines, and it could even turn out to be an interesting ‘worms eye’ view on 40k, and flesh out some of the daily life and cosmology for AoS. Or it could fail, sink and be more or less forgotten.
Plus, I have fond memories of some of the cartoons people have mentioned in thread!
I'm a whole lot more excited about this than any of the GW releases in the last 3 or 4 years. Seriously.
I'm going to be going nuts with this stuff when my kids are old enough to read it (and I'm confident it'll be age appropriate).
I really hope they go further and introduce something to make it easier to play games based on the books - either rules or mini's packs or something. I'm expecting this will have lots of stories about adventurers being chased by goblins and the likes, more like The Hobbit, rather that Horus Heresy.
Edit: I'm loving all the outrage. It's as if the game didn't start of largely tailored to kids. I can say that and still enjoy the game, though I started playing with the mini's by about 10. Right in the middle of the book series' reading age.
Sounds like it would just be propaganda in-universe to me. Besides, it's not like there's much harm if it sucks. The 40k fluff has been a complete piss take for the better part of the last decade anyway.
Carnikang wrote: I notice a lot of the comments are specifically about the 40k book, not so much the AoS book. And, to be frank, I think that's pretty fair.
I would suspect that's just a sign of how less invested people are in the AOS background.
I have to say, the negativity about this has surprised me. I mean, there's always been a small section of the community that's complained about those durned kids ruining the hobby by having the temerity to be interested in it, but this announcement seems to have really brought that to the forefront.
Without kids getting into the hobby, the hobby eventually dies. A few books aimed at kids won't destroy your hobby, and might well introduce it to kids who otherwise might not have even known it existed.
Everyone needs to take a chill pill and accept that not every product is aimed at them, and that's ok.
So I took one for the team and bought one of the Star wars books these writers worked on before. Basically if you think Roald Dahl in terms of presentation, writing style and book length, then you won't be far wrong.
Carnikang wrote: I notice a lot of the comments are specifically about the 40k book, not so much the AoS book. And, to be frank, I think that's pretty fair.
I would suspect that's just a sign of how less invested people are in the AOS background.
I have to say, the negativity about this has surprised me. I mean, there's always been a small section of the community that's complained about those durned kids ruining the hobby by having the temerity to be interested in it, but this announcement seems to have really brought that to the forefront.
Without kids getting into the hobby, the hobby eventually dies. A few books aimed at kids won't destroy your hobby, and might well introduce it to kids who otherwise might not have even known it existed.
Everyone needs to take a chill pill and accept that not every product is aimed at them, and that's ok.
Indeed. It's a 40k forum first, after all.
But be sure AOS in the fluff is as gruesome as any Warhammer settings. The Gates of Azyr novel by Chris Wraight (first for the game) deals with funny themes like the fall of all civilization, cannibalism (on still living victims) or the torture of old people for sports.
I wouldn't want the setting(s) to be less grimdark, of course. But it's not what is happening. It's just another line, for another audience.
If I have kids one day I'll teach them how to read with "RQ : City of Lifestone"
Carnikang wrote: I notice a lot of the comments are specifically about the 40k book, not so much the AoS book. And, to be frank, I think that's pretty fair.
I would suspect that's just a sign of how less invested people are in the AOS background.
I was quite excited about the fantasy range of the books until I saw the Sigmarine. For some reason I thought it'd be more low fantasy/old worldy. It might still make for some decent stories and mini games, especially since the world is so open.
Carnikang wrote: I notice a lot of the comments are specifically about the 40k book, not so much the AoS book. And, to be frank, I think that's pretty fair.
I would suspect that's just a sign of how less invested people are in the AOS background.
I have to say, the negativity about this has surprised me. I mean, there's always been a small section of the community that's complained about those durned kids ruining the hobby by having the temerity to be interested in it, but this announcement seems to have really brought that to the forefront.
Without kids getting into the hobby, the hobby eventually dies. A few books aimed at kids won't destroy your hobby, and might well introduce it to kids who otherwise might not have even known it existed.
Everyone needs to take a chill pill and accept that not every product is aimed at them, and that's ok.
And some people need to be accept that there are people who thinks this a bad move from GW, and that's ok.
reds8n wrote: so 40k/AoS equivalent of lego Batman then.
fair enough.
If they manage to be Lego Batman good that would be awesome, but I doubt that. I'm fine if they get it Terry Pratchett's "Nation" good. Also I think it is fair to asume that the focus will be more on classic childerns book topics like friendship, growing up and having an andventure. AOS and 40k is just the setting.
insaniak wrote: I have to say, the negativity about this has surprised me. I mean, there's always been a small section of the community that's complained about those durned kids ruining the hobby by having the temerity to be interested in it, but this announcement seems to have really brought that to the forefront.
Without kids getting into the hobby, the hobby eventually dies. A few books aimed at kids won't destroy your hobby, and might well introduce it to kids who otherwise might not have even known it existed.
Everyone needs to take a chill pill and accept that not every product is aimed at them, and that's ok.
One can agree with the principle of introducing Warhammer to children but disagree with the method. No child hated Star Wars because Luke Skywalker was old enough to own a "car", so it's a mistake to think that the protagonists of a children's story have to be children themselves.
I think the best part about this has been the reaction among alt-right circles, who think the presence of minorities in the books is part of some sort of 'cultural Marxist' agenda to destroy the west.
dyndraig wrote: And some people need to be accept that there are people who thinks this a bad move from GW, and that's ok.
Just thinking it's bad move would be ok, sure, but most criticism of this I saw on various forums were based on racism (N-word protagonist! REEE!!!), sexism (what dem wimminz are doing outside of kitchen! REEE!), snobbish elitism (kiddos in my hobby?! REEEEEE!!!), or plainly having so tight horizons and small reference pool of books read you simply can't imagine there are YA books out there, right now, that deal with the themes potential YA Warhammer stories would do, excellent ones at that, and they sky didn't fall somehow...
Last time I checked, none of the above is okay. This place is thankfully more civilized than /pol/ and the rest of their ilk.
One can agree with the principle of introducing Warhammer to children but disagree with the method. No child hated Star Wars because Luke Skywalker was old enough to own a "car", so it's a mistake to think that the protagonists of a children's story have to be children themselves.
Have to be? No, of course not. But the idea of the protagonist being someone that the reader can relate to in order to help them connect with the story is a fairly established one in fiction writing, and for the most part kids relate better to kids than to adults.
And, of course, that's assuming that the protagonists of all of these stories will always be kids.
And overlooking that fact that for those who don't want to read books about kids, there are how many Black Library novels out there now?
This doesn't take away anything that's already there. Just adds another option.
dyndraig wrote: And some people need to be accept that there are people who thinks this a bad move from GW, and that's ok.
Just thinking it's bad move would be ok, sure, but most criticism of this I saw on various forums were based on racism (N-word protagonist! REEE!!!), sexism (what dem wimminz are doing outside of kitchen! REEE!), snobbish elitism (kiddos in my hobby?! REEEEEE!!!), or plainly having so tight horizons and small reference pool of books read you simply can't imagine there are YA books out there, right now, that deal with the themes potential YA Warhammer stories would do, excellent ones at that, and they sky didn't fall somehow...
Last time I checked, none of the above is okay. This place is thankfully more civilized than /pol/ and the rest of their ilk.
Is it really necessary to compare the arguments of those people to autism? That is exactly what that "Reeee!" meme is.
No one apart from you mentioned autism. That's just meant to be a screeching incoherently noise. But those people don't have arguments. Not sane ones anyway.
I'm curious enough to get the AoS book just to see how they'll be able to adapt some of the most hostile universes to human life to children. I'm really, really curious. (AoS one just looks cooler, reminds me of the old school D&D cartoon show)
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: No one apart from you mentioned autism. That's just meant to be a screeching incoherently noise. But those people don't have arguments. Not sane ones anyway.
That is literally the text that accompanies the "autistic screeching" meme. Do your research next time before laying on the fething snark. If the only counter argument you can formulate is "these people are autistic" then you're just as bad as them.
I really couldn't care less what the definition of a "meme" is. Meme is a junk word anyway. That is just an incoherent screeching noise, usually accompanied by idiot rage. But again, you brought Autism up, no one else. You're just looking for a way to start an argument.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: No one apart from you mentioned autism. That's just meant to be a screeching incoherently noise. But those people don't have arguments. Not sane ones anyway.
That is literally the text that accompanies the "autistic screeching" meme. Do your research next time before laying on the fething snark. If the only counter argument you can formulate is "these people are autistic" then you're just as bad as them.
NOPE!
""REEEEEEE" is an onomatopoeic expression of intense rage or frustration typically associated with the Angry Pepe character and used by those who frequent the /r9k/ board on 4chan. The expression is often associated with the Autistic Screeching meme, however it is intended to represent the unique croak produced by several species of frogs when agitated."
Autistic screeching is misassociated. Before you try to school someone fething educate yourself - at least try to
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: No one apart from you mentioned autism. That's just meant to be a screeching incoherently noise. But those people don't have arguments. Not sane ones anyway.
That is literally the text that accompanies the "autistic screeching" meme. Do your research next time before laying on the fething snark. If the only counter argument you can formulate is "these people are autistic" then you're just as bad as them.
Not like you to be intentionally antagonistic and aggressive. It's clear that it wasn't used in that way, but you are using it as a way to attack someone.
I don't so much have a problem with the general intent of these and what they are trying to accomplish, but at the same time the idea itself and the information given so far is somewhat concerning. The W40K setting is supposed to be one of the darkest, most horrifying places possible - the worrying aspect to me is that they don't really see a problem with doing this in the first place.Going for the approach of trying to portray these horrifying parts of the setting as something friendly or nice is the wrong way to go about it, the W40K setting is not a setting that should have a group of best friends from entirely different upbringings that resulted in pretty normal, seemingly good people who are going on fun and exciting adventures together because facing those horrors surely couldn't be that bad!. It's an idea that in itself goes against the defining aspects of the setting.
The concerning part is that it's going to result in things that are completely against and don't fit in with the rest of the setting, yet they're still part of the setting. While these obviously aren't going to change the entire setting or anything like that, they do still have an affect on it and the way it shows things reflects back on that. The Star Wars: Rebels TV show was something also aimed at younger audiences, and while there were some dark moments in there, it also resulted in such silly, absurd things are lightsaber helicopters because of the intended audience. So my concern is that this will modify certain things in order to fit in with that idea of showing the setting in a good light. For example - the character Talen. It mentions he ran away to stop being conscripted into the Imperial Guard, but then right after that it goes on to say he joined a feral Hive Gang...yet he "has a good heart". That seems to be a complete misportrayal of what life in a Hive City, and even more so in a Hive Gang, would result in and cause someone to be and it's that sort of thing of twisting something too far to make it fit in with the tone of this that is a concern to me. It's diluting the themes of the setting too much, basically.
Maybe these won't turn out too bad, but from what the site says it sounds like it's not going to be good.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I don't so much have a problem with the general intent of these and what they are trying to accomplish, but at the same time the idea itself and the information given so far is somewhat concerning. The W40K setting is supposed to be one of the darkest, most horrifying places possible - the worrying aspect to me is that they don't really see a problem with doing this in the first place.Going for the approach of trying to portray these horrifying parts of the setting as something friendly or nice is the wrong way to go about it, the W40K setting is not a setting that should have a group of best friends from entirely different upbringings that resulted in pretty normal, seemingly good people who are going on fun and exciting adventures together because facing those horrors surely couldn't be that bad!. It's an idea that in itself goes against the defining aspects of the setting.
The concerning part is that it's going to result in things that are completely against and don't fit in with the rest of the setting, yet they're still part of the setting. While these obviously aren't going to change the entire setting or anything like that, they do still have an affect on it and the way it shows things reflects back on that. The Star Wars: Rebels TV show was something also aimed at younger audiences, and while there were some dark moments in there, it also resulted in such silly, absurd things are lightsaber helicopters because of the intended audience. So my concern is that this will modify certain things in order to fit in with that idea of showing the setting in a good light. For example - the character Talen. It mentions he ran away to stop being conscripted into the Imperial Guard, but then right after that it goes on to say he joined a feral Hive Gang...yet he "has a good heart". That seems to be a complete misportrayal of what life in a Hive City, and even more so in a Hive Gang, would result in and cause someone to be and it's that sort of thing of twisting something too far to make it fit in with the tone of this that is a concern to me. It's diluting the themes of the setting too much, basically.
Maybe these won't turn out too bad, but from what the site says it sounds like it's not going to be good.
Pretty sure I've never seen a lightsaber helicopter in any of the main Star Wars film. Thus I couldn't care less that it appears in childrens fiction. In the same way I don't care what Warhammer Adventures says about Hive Gangs. Well, I could read it and enjoy it perhaps, completely divorced from my enjoyment of the mainstream 40k universe, with neither one affecting my enjoyment of the other.
Writing stories set in the 40K universe and aimed at a younger audience than the game usually is could actually work. It's just that if you want something other than fascist propaganda for kids you're going to have to put a lot of work in and the result wouldn't necessarily be a fun story. Something that tackles the realities of living in what the Imperium actually is would have its place in literature and certainly wouldn't be without precedent. I'm not too convinced this will happen, though.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: No one apart from you mentioned autism. That's just meant to be a screeching incoherently noise. But those people don't have arguments. Not sane ones anyway.
That is literally the text that accompanies the "autistic screeching" meme. Do your research next time before laying on the fething snark. If the only counter argument you can formulate is "these people are autistic" then you're just as bad as them.
NOPE!
""REEEEEEE" is an onomatopoeic expression of intense rage or frustration typically associated with the Angry Pepe character and used by those who frequent the /r9k/ board on 4chan. [b]The expression is often associated with the Autistic Screeching meme[/b], however it is intended to represent the unique croak produced by several species of frogs when agitated."
Autistic screeching is misassociated. Before you try to school someone fething educate yourself - at least try to
Mentlegen324 wrote: I don't so much have a problem with the general intent of these and what they are trying to accomplish, but at the same time the idea itself and the information given so far is somewhat concerning. The W40K setting is supposed to be one of the darkest, most horrifying places possible - the worrying aspect to me is that they don't really see a problem with doing this in the first place.Going for the approach of trying to portray these horrifying parts of the setting as something friendly or nice is the wrong way to go about it, the W40K setting is not a setting that should have a group of best friends from entirely different upbringings that resulted in pretty normal, seemingly good people who are going on fun and exciting adventures together because facing those horrors surely couldn't be that bad!. It's an idea that in itself goes against the defining aspects of the setting.
The concerning part is that it's going to result in things that are completely against and don't fit in with the rest of the setting, yet they're still part of the setting. While these obviously aren't going to change the entire setting or anything like that, they do still have an affect on it and the way it shows things reflects back on that. The Star Wars: Rebels TV show was something also aimed at younger audiences, and while there were some dark moments in there, it also resulted in such silly, absurd things are lightsaber helicopters because of the intended audience. So my concern is that this will modify certain things in order to fit in with that idea of showing the setting in a good light. For example - the character Talen. It mentions he ran away to stop being conscripted into the Imperial Guard, but then right after that it goes on to say he joined a feral Hive Gang...yet he "has a good heart". That seems to be a complete misportrayal of what life in a Hive City, and even more so in a Hive Gang, would result in and cause someone to be and it's that sort of thing of twisting something too far to make it fit in with the tone of this that is a concern to me. It's diluting the themes of the setting too much, basically.
Maybe these won't turn out too bad, but from what the site says it sounds like it's not going to be good.
Pretty sure I've never seen a lightsaber helicopter in any of the main Star Wars film. Thus I couldn't care less that it appears in childrens fiction. In the same way I don't care what Warhammer Adventures says about Hive Gangs. Well, I could read it and enjoy it perhaps, completely divorced from my enjoyment of the mainstream 40k universe, with neither one affecting my enjoyment of the other.
Neckbeards got real bent out of shape over 6 seconds of lame in a TV series that lasted 75 episodes. The series had a lot of growth and maturity that would have matched its audience, who started at 8-9 and finished the series at 12-13. But these are the same folks who will sputter endlessly about bombs falling in space in Last Jedi, conveniently ignoring the asteroid bombing in Empire.
I find it absurd to demand that every single bit of content produced for a series be specifically catered to your tastes...
Red_Five wrote: How do you teach inclusivity in a fascist theocracy?
No where in the entire product description does it mention inclusivity and the plot on the site as presented doesn't mention it, its all about adventures.
So help me understand and explain exactly what you mean by that comment?
blood reaper wrote: I think the best part about this has been the reaction among alt-right circles, who think the presence of minorities in the books is part of some sort of 'cultural Marxist' agenda to destroy the west.
I saw a guy on twitter use the phrase "zomg cringe!" in response to these books. In 2018!
Irbis wrote: Just thinking it's bad move would be ok, sure, but most criticism of this I saw on various forums were based on racism (N-word protagonist! REEE!!!), sexism (what dem wimminz are doing outside of kitchen! REEE!), snobbish elitism (kiddos in my hobby?! REEEEEE!!!), or plainly having so tight horizons and small reference pool of books read you simply can't imagine there are YA books out there, right now, that deal with the themes potential YA Warhammer stories would do, excellent ones at that, and they sky didn't fall somehow...
Last time I checked, none of the above is okay.
Well, the last one is kinda okay though. I mean, sure, the way you put it, you make it sound not great, but it's hardly as terrible as the other two. I guess that's why you didn't put a REEEEEE!!! at the end, no ?
I mean, I'm personally skeptical of the concept for this reason, so I'm somehow biased, but my feelings on the issue aren't that strong either .
Neckbeards got real bent out of shape over 6 seconds of lame in a TV series that lasted 75 episodes. The series had a lot of growth and maturity that would have matched its audience, who started at 8-9 and finished the series at 12-13. But these are the same folks who will sputter endlessly about bombs falling in space in Last Jedi, conveniently ignoring the asteroid bombing in Empire.
Pretty sure the bombs in Empire had propulsion and didn't rely on gravity.
The fact that people are upset about this is tragic really.
GW are trying to get new blood in the hobby without upsetting any parents/guardians. This isn't a bad thing. More hobbyists = more money = more updates, models and game systems. It is literally a win-win.
I often get told off by the store manager at my local if I swear, regardless of whether there's kids in the store or not. I find it stupid but it's his house his rules I suppose. I guess it's a power thing in his case. This is the worst thing you can expect and if it annoys you much you can always just join another group that is a little more 'adult'.
Embrace change. It isn't the strongest or most intelligent creature that thrives, but the one most adaptive to change. Be that creature.
It's not tragic, really. People are upset because it is at odds with the Warhammer they know and love, believe it to represent trends that have negatively affected other hobbies and franchises, and worry that it could represent a change in direction for the lore. Whether this is true, or simply worry for worry's sake, remains to be seen. But it is a completely predictable, understandable, and not tragic reaction.
Ever wonder why people argue so passionately about boob armor? It isn't because they like it (or don't) or because it is practical warfare attire or sexist against women or whatever, but because it is a lightning rod for a specific change in mindset that people are either arguing for or against. Neither mindset is inclusive of the other's position, so people start to feel anxious when it feels like one mindset is winning over another (rather than the uneasy truce we currently "enjoy"). But because they don't understand where that anxiety is really coming from, the argument tends to come out in more concrete, and occasionally absurd, examples. For instance, I've seen people argue about boob armor within the context of 14th century pike warfare as a reason why 40k, with pauldrons bigger than small manned vehicles, shouldn't use it.
There's nothing innately wrong with these books, and at worst, you could say that they are amusingly misguided but adorably so. But people see a multi-ethnic group of kids with good hearts that are at extreme odds with a xenophobic, dispassionate adult universe, and they can't help but get that anxiety that the uneasy truce of mindsets is becoming unbalanced. They aren't worried about the books. They are worried about how these books will affect what happens next.
Unlike boob armor on Sisters of Battle, which affects the models and lore directly, I think these books are a separate curiosity, intended to be their own unrelated thing and as such, can be safely ignored from a viewpoint of how it will ideologically affect the universes.
It's not tragic, really. People are upset because it is at odds with the Warhammer they know and love, believe it to represent trends that have negatively affected other hobbies and franchises, and worry that it could represent a change in direction for the lore. Whether this is true, or simply worry for worry's sake, remains to be seen. But it is a completely predictable, understandable, and not tragic reaction.
I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with you, but here we are...
Englishman- you (and several others) are getting the wrong end of the stick. Getting new blood into the hobby is a GOOD thing. Hell, I got in as a 11-12 year old (although dipped my toe in earlier with board games like Dark World and Bluebird toys attempt at a wargame in Havok ('member that? Incidentally I sent to GW by the lady in Woolworth's when looking for Havok models. It's all her fault!)) and have never looked back.
Doing this at the expense of potentially diluting the brand, which is where a lot of these fears lie is a BAD thing. This is what people are riled up about.
There's very little on the 40k tabletop which is inappropriate for children, but from what I understand, the same could not be said about the Black Library novels. 40k is already all ages gaming. This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
Really, it’s all made up stories about space men by some fedora at a desk in Nottingham anyway, regardless of which age level 40k you’ve invested in
There's very little on the 40k tabletop which is inappropriate for children, but from what I understand, the same could not be said about the Black Library novels. 40k is already all ages gaming. This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
They are relatively tame really especially compared to more visual and direct mediums such as films and video games which kids have easy access to despite age ratings.
its rare to have any restriction on the purchase of a book - games, films and tv shows are supposed to but many parents buy them for them anyway.
Neckbeards got real bent out of shape over 6 seconds of lame in a TV series that lasted 75 episodes. The series had a lot of growth and maturity that would have matched its audience, who started at 8-9 and finished the series at 12-13. But these are the same folks who will sputter endlessly about bombs falling in space in Last Jedi, conveniently ignoring the asteroid bombing in Empire.
Pretty sure the bombs in Empire had propulsion and didn't rely on gravity.
Watch the scene. They just fall out of the Tie Bombers.
I'm sure there's some fanwank explanation. Star Wars doesnt care about physics... it isn't like you need to bank in space.
To bring this back around... I can't imagine any of the toned down lore in the books will seriously impact the adult grimdark man dolly lore. GW just wants to get kids on the cradle to grave consumer path earlier, and want a multimedia approach.
Wow, all those space explorer kids are going to get a rude awakening. "He thought back on the carefree days of his youth as his planet burned. He'd been so carefree, so full of adventure. Now as a servant of the inquisition he'd just helped to execute his childhood friends, their aged granparents, the babies... ...all of them on account of the actions of a few tainted cultists. He thought of all the people he'd tortured and killed. Had it really been so different when he was young? Sylvia was a servitor now, lobotomized for free thinking, and Oto was serving a life sentence of hard labor..."
I actually think 40K is UNREALISTICALLY dark in some ways (how are there any planets left really?), so a little lightening to admit a younger audience doesn't bother me as much. It is a big galaxy, somebody must be happy somewhere, right? On the otherhand, I kind of feel like 40K can never really be suitable for children. I don't want my 8 year old getting invested in a universe where murder of entire planets is lauded....
There's very little on the 40k tabletop which is inappropriate for children, but from what I understand, the same could not be said about the Black Library novels. 40k is already all ages gaming. This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
Eh, I wouldn't say that kids aren't ready for dark stuff. The Brothers Grim and Hans Christian Anderson's stories, for example, were pretty dark by today's standards, and those were intended for children. Remember Hansel and Gretel? That's a story about a cannibalistic witch who eats children by throwing them into an oven. Whilst they are still alive. That's some cult of Moloch gak, man. Oh, and Bambi! How could I forget about that. You know, that Disney film wherein a baby Deer's mother gets shot by hunters. Or the lion king. Which involves lion murder and a rather catchy song involving hyrenas playing with bones.
What I'm worried about is that GW will go for the typical corporate stance when it comes to modern children's entertainment and go the carebear route rather than the Grimm route.
I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.
Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...
deathwinguk wrote: I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.
Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...
The adult themed lore is still, and will still be there.
Chances are most teenagers won't see this stuff much if ever beyond the odd reference. There's a lot of kid stuff made for things that, because of marketing and where its sold, adults never see or are rarely exposed too.
How many adults do you think saw the cartoons of adult films made in the 80-90s? Chances are most never saw them until month after their kid had started watching them on the TV.
deathwinguk wrote: I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.
Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...
The adult themed lore is still, and will still be there.
Yes but having any content aimed at younger children could be seen as diluting that. Teenagers don't tend to like being associated with anything childish. Hopefully GW know what they're doing.
The concerning part is that it's going to result in things that are completely against and don't fit in with the rest of the setting, yet they're still part of the setting.
Or, they'll just result in a bunch of kids books that have no effect on the canon (such as it is) at all.
Kind of like the old Star Wars EU's multiple levels of canon. Or Star Trek's much simpler 'only the movies and shows are canon... the books are just stories' approach.
Of course, that's putting a lot more weight on canon that GW tend to, anyway. In GW-land, Tyranids can be terrifying aliens bent on eating you and everything you hold dear, and want to be your friend.
deathwinguk wrote: I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.
Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...
The adult themed lore is still, and will still be there.
Yes but having any content aimed at younger children could be seen as diluting that. Teenagers don't tend to like being associated with anything childish. Hopefully GW know what they're doing.
Not being funny but as a teenager I wasn’t overly enamoured with the idea of being associated with Warhammer as it was anyway... this wouldn’t have changed anything for me. Obviously I can’t talk for all teenagers but as Insaniak says, I think people will just stick to stuff in their age range.
Yes but having any content aimed at younger children could be seen as diluting that. Teenagers don't tend to like being associated with anything childish. Hopefully GW know what they're doing.
Star Wars has, for some time now (as in, 30 years or so), had books for adults, books aimed at teenagers, and books aimed at younger kids.
For the most part, people just ignore the books that they don't want to read.
Wait, is people really saying that "Warhammer40k" lore has adult themes?
The "fine" parody of warhammer died with 2nd edition. From that point forward it has just been explosions and bolter porn, even when they try to make it deeper like in Inquisition novels, etc... you can't dilute it with a light earthed graphic novel for young kids.
Warhammer 40k is the sci-fi universe equivalent of a Michael Bay movie.
And ey, thats exactly why I love it. But to make of it some sacrosant and untouchable thing, after years of GW doing whatever they want with their universes and Lore, retconning them as they please, is a little... unproductive.
I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading
and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard
Galas wrote: Wait, is people really saying that "Warhammer40k" lore has adult themes?
I've only ever read the first Gotrek and Felix story, in which they attempt to locate an innkeeper's son and his wife, who turn out to be members of a Slaanesh sex cult - which they only discover after murdering everyone at the orgy because they were going to sacrifice a kidnapped infant. You know, now that you mention it, I do sort of remember an episode of Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse that covered similar territory.
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading
and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard
I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.
I'm a primary school teacher and I've taught ages 8-11 for 7 years. That's 210 children directly but we're 3 form entry so 630 children over that period. I can say with absolute certainty (not the general "I don't like this so naturally children aren't going to" response that seems prevalent here) that these will be of interest to a great number of young readers. Children who enjoy science fiction or fantasy, children who like adventure tales and the like will inevitably read these not because they necessarily know or like warhammer, but because the are generally interested in the subject material.
Not only that, but as a teacher, being able to talk directly to children in my class about a common enjoyment is a fantastic teaching tool. And as a parent, knowing that I have books like this I can share with my own younger children is fantastic.
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading
and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard
I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.
which goes back to my other point,are the kids interested in these kind of carebears story will eventaully turned out to be interested in the grim dark setting of 40k?
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading
and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard
I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.
which goes back to my other point,are the kids interested in these kind of carebears story will eventaully turned out to be interested in the grim dark setting of 40k?
Sure they probably will. There is SO MUCH MORE to 40K than just the Grim Dark.
The Gothic styles; the painting, the modelling, the playing, the converting, the lore, the computer games - there's ever so much that this kids product is but one tiny part of the whole. If it leads other kids into Warhammer at an earlier age all the better for some will become players to game, play and get into the hobby. That's what we should all be pleased with; that this will hopefully encourage more to take up the hobby we love.
Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kap'n Krump wrote: Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!
You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kap'n Krump wrote: Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!
You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading
and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard
I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.
which goes back to my other point,are the kids interested in these kind of carebears story will eventaully turned out to be interested in the grim dark setting of 40k?
Assuming these are ‘carebear’ stories, I’m sure some will grow up and mature into the proper BL fiction, yeah. When I was younger I was into much more innocent and childish stuff (funnily enough, being a child) but I matured into liking the stuff I do now. Kids grow up.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kap'n Krump wrote: Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!
You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.
Lol, insulting. Quit being a drama queen
So you don't think it's insulting to group all kids together as being the same rather than as indviduals? Interesting frame of mind there.
Sqorgar wrote: This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kap'n Krump wrote: Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!
You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.
Lol, insulting. Quit being a drama queen
So you don't think it's insulting to group all kids together as being the same rather than as indviduals? Interesting frame of mind there.
No, I think that you are either selectively comprehending what I wrote, , or desesperately fishing for some kind of argument/controversy
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs.
No, they don't. They assume that some 8-12 year old kids are interested in these kinds of stories.
They don't need to sell to every kid. Just enough of them to be profitable.
And if the stories are halfway competently written, they'll sell in crateloads to those who want then. And the kids who are into heavier fare will still have the 'adult' books.
Sqorgar wrote: This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
Thanks, that sums up my opinion nicely.
On the point (not the persons),bollocks, quite frankly.
GW know that kids arguably too young for the core games still show an interest. And a massive part of their appeal is the sheer scope of the Hobby. For every Tingoy, there’s someone who only paints. For every painter, there’s someone that only reads the fiction. And there’s so much intersection between those same exceptionally broad strokes it’s not even funny.
Now, kids will of course show an interest. Me? I was 9 years old when I first clapped eyes on Heroquest. At the end of the month, I turn 38. Yes. I am fairly old.
At that point, I was only exposed to the sanitised Old World as presented within Heroquest. A game that includes Fimir. You remember the Fimir. Don’t you? Based on Irish myth, can only reproduce via rape Fimir? Sure. That bit was understandably and justifiably left out of the Heroquest background - yet here I am, nigh on 29 years to the day still enjoying being A Massive Nerd.
Seriously. If one can sanitise swamp dwelling Rape Monsters, you can sanitise anything
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs.
No, they don't. They assume that some 8-12 year old kids are interested in these kinds of stories.
They don't need to sell to every kid. Just enough of them to be profitable.
And if the stories are halfway competently written, they'll sell in crateloads to those who want then. And the kids who are into heavier fare will still have the 'adult' books.
In a sense they do, or at least they assume that most kids are interested in these kind of products. The explicit goal of these books is to attract new customers to the hhhobby, and since it's the only ''kid'' product made by GW, it shows that this is what they think most kids want.
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs.
No, they don't. They assume that some 8-12 year old kids are interested in these kinds of stories.
They don't need to sell to every kid. Just enough of them to be profitable.
And if the stories are halfway competently written, they'll sell in crateloads to those who want then. And the kids who are into heavier fare will still have the 'adult' books.
In a sense they do, or at least they assume that most kids are interested in these kind of products. The explicit goal of these books is to attract new customers to the hhhobby, and since it's the only ''kid'' product made by GW, it shows that this is what they think most kids want.
No, it's a test to see if kids want it. And be fair, their entire product line is plastic soldiers, so pretty much every product thet make is kid based. And to your other point, if i did somehow misinterpret what you said, try explaining yourself a bit better.
As memory serves, you were the first to bring up (but not define) ‘brand dilution’....and acted as if these books somehow meant all of Black Library’s output would henceforth aimed at the same age group?
But hey. It’s you. This is nothing new. GW do something, and sure as a very sure thing, there’s StreetSamurai inventing a complaint about it.
Lol, I don't have to define the concept of brand dilution, It's a well known concept in marketing (and has your post shows, you have no clue what it means). If youre too ignorant or lazy to make a simple google research, this is not my problem
Personally some of the Roald Dahl stuff I read as a young kid is actually Darker than a lot of the stuff I read now........Less sex though which gave him far more time for plot and cleverness.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: At that point, I was only exposed to the sanitised Old World as presented within Heroquest. A game that includes Fimir. You remember the Fimir. Don’t you?
No, I don't. I bought a lot of white dwarf, the 5th ed starter box and Lizardmen, Bretonnian codices, the rule books for later editions, and I basically never heard of them, except a bit on the internet when they were re-released by Forge World.
The fimir are a really obscure part of the lore.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Seriously. If one can sanitise swamp dwelling Rape Monsters, you can sanitise anything
Yeah but my point was that for 40k, you have to “sanitize away” so much stuff if you want not to promote xenophobic totalitarian empire to kids, that you lose what makes 40k worthwhile. Now of course that was from my point of view, and I understand that for a bunch of people, and for GW, there is a completely different interest in having a book in a “sanitized” version of 40k: introduce new people to the universe. It's not something I'm averse to, I'm not in the stupid gate-keeping thing, but it's not something I am particularly interested to either to be honest. But I can understand this point of view.
Do people (majority) only play Space Marines because they are Xenophobic Totalitarians? Or just because they are big dudes in space armour with big guns blasting aliens and monsters?
For some the lore is king, for others its a game of pew-pew toy soldiers with some rules.
Sqorgar wrote: This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
streetsamurai wrote: Lol, I don't have to define the concept of brand dilution, It's a well known concept in marketing (and has your post shows, you have no clue what it means). If youre too ignorant or lazy to make a simple google research, this is not my problem
Ok, so Google definition here: "Brand dilution happens when a brand loses its value from excessive use. Value is lost when a product or a piece of media does not meet the expectations customers have of the brand. Line extensions can lead to brand dilution if the new product does not live up to the brand promise of the original product.".
I don't think we've seen any brand value loss, not judging by the financials anyway. And considering people have moaned for years that GW has been sitting on it's IP with no expansion, we certainly can't say it's been excessively used yet.
We can't judge if this particular piece of media has met with expectations of the target audience as A) it hasn't been released yet and B) no one on this board is the target audience.
So at this moment in time, Brand dilution is nothing but fear mongering based on knee jerk reactions on some unreleased kids books.
Side note; Dakka really needs bullet point options.
This is a mechanism to draw in new blood and nothing more.
40k isn't going to change. Stop panicking and acting ridiculous.
It is definitely tragic that some of you see an issue with this. More hobbyists is a good thing. This encourages more hobbyists. It doesn't dilute the 40k brand, it actually makes it more stable moving forward.
Sqorgar wrote: This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
you're missing the point. Brand dilution can happen if there's an expansion in a category of product that customers don't think it fits in. As you can see by this thread and other discussion on the subject, a lot of warhammer customers dont' think these books fit with the brand. Hence why there is a risk of brand dilution.
Sqorgar wrote: This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?
Thanks, that sums up my opinion nicely.
FYI, there IS a SoF&I kid's book.
Well that's weird! What is it about? Is it good?
IIRC(mind I only saw it once at B&N), it's an in universe fairy tale style story.
I posed the question of the Authors a bit aback, and looking at their credentials, I'm really not sure there is a lot to fear. The one who is writing the 40K Book actually did a little writing for Black Library before, and has a really long list of children's books.
Both of them worked collabratively on a Star Wars children series as well. Of the writers they could have picked, I think its not out of the question to say they picked someone 'safe' in terms of knowing the tone of 40k.
streetsamurai wrote: you're missing the point. Brand dilution can happen if there's an expansion in a category of product that customers don't think it fits in. As you can see by this thread and other discussion on the subject, a lot of warhammer customers dont' think these books fit with the brand. Hence why there is a risk of brand dilution.
No one's missing the point as there is no point to be made. 30 odd people on here and the loudmouths on facebook and 4chan and the like do not constitute a lot of customers. This is yet again a case of those who cry loudest think they speak for the majority. And yet again the silent majority give a collective shrug and either like the idea or just carry on because it doesn't affect them.
I like how someone that 5 minutes ago, didn't even knew what brand dilution was, and had to turn to google to get a definition, is arrogantly arguing with an university professor in marketing on the precise subject of brand dilution.
streetsamurai wrote: I like how someone that 5 minutes ago, didn't even knew what brand dilution was, and had to turn to google to get a definition, is arrogantly arguing with an university professor in marketing on the precise subject of brand dilution.
the ignorants are truly blessed.
I like how someone who's run out of arguments, rather than retiring gracefully falls back on insults because they can no longer argue. Think about that.
I could argue all day on this. As I said, my job is talking about marketing. But I have no intention in continuing a discussion with someone who always resort to passive aggressive statements (there is no point to be made.... loudmouths etc)
streetsamurai wrote: I like how someone that 5 minutes ago, didn't even knew what brand dilution was, and had to turn to google to get a definition, is arrogantly arguing with an university professor in marketing on the precise subject of brand dilution.
the ignorants are truly blessed.
I like how someone who's run out of arguments, rather than retiring gracefully falls back on insults because they can no longer argue. Think about that.
Indeed. Argument from Authority fallacy to insults in two lines.
streetsamurai wrote: I could argue all day on this. As I said, my job is talking about marketing. But I have no intention in continuing a discussion with someone who always resort to passive aggressive statements (there is no point to be made.... loudmouths etc)
Keep digging yourself that hole Professor. It will swallow you up eventually.
There's way too much aggressivity in this thread, please let's all try to have constructive conversation and try to consider the best possible interpretation of each other's arguments .
I'm all for this. On earth the planet we live on there are stories from peoples lives that can be age appropriate or not appropriate in any polite society.
Look at stories in history, you can tell the same story of various civilizations for different age groups based on how you tell the story and what you leave out.
If the books are of decent quality it will be a great way to cater for younger audiences. Warhammer is enjoyed by ages from small children to adults of retirement age so I don't see why there cannot be potential for products and stories that cater for one part of that group but not the other.
I heard about this when I was flipping through the various wargaming news outlets this morning, and let me say- I think this is outright genius. Well done, GW. Warhammer Adventures shows that GW's management has had their ear to the ground and knows exactly what the AoS and 40k communities need. I'm shocked they didn't do this years ago. Usually, GW misses the mark- or at best, they get close in a general ball-park, but this time they nailed it, bullseye!
I'm shocked that it took them this long to realize that so many 40k and AoS gamers are actually thumb-sucking children. One would have think they would have realized this years ago, considering how obvious it was to everyone else. "Whaaa! Waaaa! I didn't get my new toys! Waaa! His new toy is better than mine! Waaaa! Waaa! His toys are too good! Mine require me to do things like synergize and think! Waaa! I don't want people to play with the toys that I can't afford! Waaa! Waaa! They never change anything! Waaa! They changed it! Whaaa! I never get new models! Waaa! I hate the new models! Waaa!" What better product than children's books? Unless there's Aquilla Diapers and Pacifiers and Rattles around the corner, I doubt they'll top this one.
Seriously, though. It's a bunch of kids' books. I don't think they're going to be a huge hit, but some folks may buy a few of them- you know how parents love to try and shove their interests onto their kids. And who knows, maybe some will like it. It's irrelevant to me, it's not changing the game at all- it's just GW found a good use for some of the worst Black Library authors that were already writing on the level of childrens' books.
I suppose, 'good luck'. It's not a product aimed at me, it's aimed at that dad in the GW with a kid. So... rock on, I suppose.
Just thinking it's bad move would be ok, sure, but most criticism of this I saw on various forums were based on racism (N-word protagonist! REEE!!!), sexism (what dem wimminz are doing outside of kitchen! REEE!), snobbish elitism (kiddos in my hobby?! REEEEEE!!!), or plainly having so tight horizons and small reference pool of books read you simply can't imagine there are YA books out there, right now, that deal with the themes potential YA Warhammer stories would do, excellent ones at that, and they sky didn't fall somehow...
Funny, I haven't seen this on any forums. The most I've seen is people making jokes about it. Feel free to PM me the links to those locations.
Irbis wrote: Last time I checked, none of the above is okay. This place is thankfully more civilized than /pol/ and the rest of their ilk.
If you went to /pol/ and were appalled and shocked at the racism there, you must be rather new to the internet. Let me spare you more shockers- 'Stormfront' isn't about the weather, and 'Lemon Party' isn't about sour citrus fiestas. Just figured I'd spare you something that everyone else with a week's worth of internet connection already found out.
You're not doing a great job at marketing your position at the moment.
What's my position??? that these books could create some brand dilution? I'd like to know why you think that this is impossible.
No one said it's impossible. If you care to re-read my analysis up above, i said that we A) can not judge yet because they have not been released and B) that we are not the target audience so we can't offer an opinion on success or not. But for some reason, a number of people are treating this like it's an apocalyptic scenario. Kind of like the whole Slaneesh getting killed off thing and sanitising the setting. Well, guess what never actually happened...? and what won't happen when these are released?
You're not doing a great job at marketing your position at the moment.
What's my position??? that these books could create some brand dilution? I'd like to know why you think that this is impossible.
No one said it's impossible. If you care to re-read my analysis up above, i said that we A) can not judge yet because they have not been released and B) that we are not the target audience so we can't offer an opinion on success or not. But for some reason, a number of people are treating this like it's an apocalyptic scenario. Kind of like the whole Slaneesh getting killed off thing and sanitising the setting. Well, guess what never actually happened...? and what won't happen when these are released?
A) this is a discusision forum on news and rumours. We discuss things based on the info that is available at the moment. If we only talked about what is released, more than half of the threads wouldn't exist.
B) This is a strawmen, I've never seen asnyone claiming this will be a catastrophe, and/or that it will cause the fall of GW. At worst, they think it's a weird/bad move
streetsamurai wrote: you're missing the point. Brand dilution can happen if there's an expansion in a category of product that customers don't think it fits in. As you can see by this thread and other discussion on the subject, a lot of warhammer customers dont' think these books fit with the brand. Hence why there is a risk of brand dilution.
Brand Dilution can occur, but it takes a MASSIVE amount of overuse for such a thing to happen. It also requires that the property is vague or simple enough, that it can't be stretched too far. For instance Star Wars is something that should have begun to suffer from massive brand dilution due to it being everywhere, and covering most (if not all) forms of media (games/movies/tv/music/anything else). However, since it's a pretty large and diverse property, it's been able to expand with the growth (fairly) well, as, people still seem to love Star Wars. Now, 5+ years down the line, when we' have 3 movies every year, and plenty of other stuff, will that still be the case? Not sure? On the other hand, a property like Angry Birds, which is a fun little game about sling shotting birds at pigs, has sort of run it's course, and hit the point of brand Dilution. There's just not much else you can do with it. They've even tried pairing it with Star Wars & Transformers, but, it's still been declining.
IMO, 40K & AoS are pretty diverse properties, and they'll be able to bear the addition of some new endeavors by GW. If my guess is right, this is more of an attempt at GW trying to sell (as a concept) their brands to the kids parents as 'more than just a plastic toy soldier game'. If I was being a good kid, reading my young adult novels, and I wanted to get into the games, as that's sort of ' the next level' for the properties. I'd tell my parents " These are the characters from the books I like." Which, subconsciously, they are going to associate as a positive, since it's books I like to read, and reading is good! (PSSST!!... Though it still has a such a positive vibe associated with it, reading in this day & age is far less beneficial than when we were kids, as the majority of reading people do is just trashy social media. TV still has a bad stigma attached to it, despite the fact that you can actually choose to watch what you want now, you're not just limited to what is playing on a limited amount of channels... )
TLDR?
GW properties will be ok. When we start getting 2 Warhammer movies a year, and I can buy skaven at the grocery store, we might be getting close.
streetsamurai wrote: you're missing the point. Brand dilution can happen if there's an expansion in a category of product that customers don't think it fits in. As you can see by this thread and other discussion on the subject, a lot of warhammer customers dont' think these books fit with the brand. Hence why there is a risk of brand dilution.
Brand Dilution can occur, but it takes a MASSIVE amount of overuse for such a thing to happen. It also requires that the property is vague or simple enough, that it can't be stretched too far. For instance Star Wars is something that should have begun to suffer from massive brand dilution due to it being everywhere, and covering most (if not all) forms of media (games/movies/tv/music/anything else). However, since it's a pretty large and diverse property, it's been able to expand with the growth (fairly) well, as, people still seem to love Star Wars. Now, 5+ years down the line, when we' have 3 movies every year, and plenty of other stuff, will that still be the case? Not sure? On the other hand, a property like Angry Birds, which is a fun little game about sling shotting birds at pigs, has sort of run it's course, and hit the point of brand Dilution. There's just not much else you can do with it. They've even tried pairing it with Star Wars & Transformers, but, it's still been declining.
IMO, 40K & AoS are pretty diverse properties, and they'll be able to bear the addition of some new endeavors by GW. If my guess is right, this is more of an attempt at GW trying to sell (as a concept) their brands to the kids parents as 'more than just a plastic toy soldier game'. If I was being a good kid, reading my young adult novels, and I wanted to get into the games, as that's sort of ' the next level' for the properties. I'd tell my parents " These are the characters from the books I like." Which, subconsciously, they are going to associate as a positive, since it's books I like to read, and reading is good! (PSSST!!... Though it still has a such a positive vibe associated with it, reading in this day & age is far less beneficial than when we were kids, as the majority of reading people do is just trashy social media. TV still has a bad stigma attached to it, despite the fact that you can actually choose to watch what you want now, you're not just limited to what is playing on a limited amount of channels... )
TLDR?
GW properties will be ok. When we start getting 2 Warhammer movies a year, and I can buy skaven at the grocery store, we might be getting close.
I agree with pretty much all of your post, but you have to consider that GW is in a peculiar situation, in the sense that while their products are ''toyish'' most of their customers (especially the younger ones/the ones that are starting in the hobby), don't want them to be seen as kids toys.
This is a fine line they are threading on (is that the english expression?), because if they start expanding more in the kid market, it could have some real negative effects down the line on the main product (and no, for these looking for a strawman, I'm not saying that only these books will cause that)
You're not doing a great job at marketing your position at the moment.
What's my position??? that these books could create some brand dilution? I'd like to know why you think that this is impossible.
No one said it's impossible. If you care to re-read my analysis up above, i said that we A) can not judge yet because they have not been released and B) that we are not the target audience so we can't offer an opinion on success or not. But for some reason, a number of people are treating this like it's an apocalyptic scenario. Kind of like the whole Slaneesh getting killed off thing and sanitising the setting. Well, guess what never actually happened...? and what won't happen when these are released?
A) this is a discusision forum on news and rumours. We discuss things based on the info that is available at the moment. If we only talked about what is released, more than half of the threads wouldn't exist.
B) This is a strawmen, I've never seen asnyone claiming this will be a catastrophe, and/or that it will cause the fall of GW. At worst, they think it's a weird/bad move
And? This isn't discussing news and rumours either. This is discussing a hypothetical scenario 5, 10 maybe even 15 years from now if GW continue to farm out their IP. Actual discussion of the books and what they could be about died pages ago.
A) If you don't like the turn the discussion has taken, instead of telling posters about what they should or shouldn't talk about, wouldn't it be more sensible to simply leave the discussion and let the others enjoy themselves?
B) Seeing how you have selectively comprehend what I wrote in this thread, I'm rather sure it's you making out mountains out of molehill
That's a poor attempt at word twisting Professor. But i can see you're not someone who can actually argue in good faith, as we've already established. You carry on and have fun, i'm going to bed.
I always sort of assumed that 40k, a game about pushing toy soldiers around, was already pretty close to this demographic anyway. I began playing when I was 10 or 11 and with people the same age as me (maybe a few years older) and enjoyed the setting well enough even without understanding some of the finer details.
I do think the 40k universe is more than large enough to have children have adventures. It is not as if every Imperial child encounters a Slaanesh-aligned Space Marine or a Genestealer infection on their homeworld. Nor does it seem plausible that every single kid that dodges a hive world draft (consisting of millions of people at a time) is going to get hunted down and executed by a Commissar. Part of the charm of the universe (imo) is that it is so epic in scale than almost anything can fall through the cracks (especially on a hive world).
I would actually be very interested in a story that deals with nothing more than the everyday dangers of an imperial hiveworld - defective servitors, criminal gangs, a sound beating from the local nuns. That sort of scale is something that hasn’t been well explored before. That last bit may be a little much to hope for but I would definitely not write this project off out of hand.
streetsamurai wrote: I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs.
No, they don't. They assume that some 8-12 year old kids are interested in these kinds of stories.
They don't need to sell to every kid. Just enough of them to be profitable.
And if the stories are halfway competently written, they'll sell in crateloads to those who want then. And the kids who are into heavier fare will still have the 'adult' books.
In a sense they do, or at least they assume that most kids are interested in these kind of products. The explicit goal of these books is to attract new customers to the hhhobby, and since it's the only ''kid'' product made by GW, it shows that this is what they think most kids want.
If the amount of people in this thread saying ‘I got into 40k when I was that young anyway through the methods available now’ are anything to go by, quite a lot of kids are already interested in it as it is. This is another entry point for different kids that aren’t necessarily interested in it as it is yet, or who aren’t ready yet, or at least who’s parents think they aren’t. So no, it’s not that GW think most kids want books like this, it’s that they think ‘hey, there might be another lot of kids that we can get into the hobby if we try this different entry point’.
ImAGeek wrote: ...This is another entry point for different kids that aren’t necessarily interested in it as it is yet, or who aren’t ready yet, or at least who’s parents think they aren’t. So no, it’s not that GW think most kids want books like this, it’s that they think ‘hey, there might be another lot of kids that we can get into the hobby if we try this different entry point’.
I'm not sure what people are crying about anyway.
You go to the FLGS with your kid. You buy you a box of whatever, and get your kid a little book and some snap-fit Primaris Marines and you hang out with the kid and teach him how to paint models.
Anyone wanna clue me in on why we're supposed to take issue with this? It's not like it's going to be a whopping success, it'll have limited appeal and won't really hurt anything.
streetsamurai wrote: you're missing the point. Brand dilution can happen if there's an expansion in a category of product that customers don't think it fits in. As you can see by this thread and other discussion on the subject, a lot of warhammer customers dont' think these books fit with the brand. Hence why there is a risk of brand dilution.
Brand Dilution can occur, but it takes a MASSIVE amount of overuse for such a thing to happen. It also requires that the property is vague or simple enough, that it can't be stretched too far. For instance Star Wars is something that should have begun to suffer from massive brand dilution due to it being everywhere, and covering most (if not all) forms of media (games/movies/tv/music/anything else). However, since it's a pretty large and diverse property, it's been able to expand with the growth (fairly) well, as, people still seem to love Star Wars. Now, 5+ years down the line, when we' have 3 movies every year, and plenty of other stuff, will that still be the case? Not sure? On the other hand, a property like Angry Birds, which is a fun little game about sling shotting birds at pigs, has sort of run it's course, and hit the point of brand Dilution. There's just not much else you can do with it. They've even tried pairing it with Star Wars & Transformers, but, it's still been declining.
IMO, 40K & AoS are pretty diverse properties, and they'll be able to bear the addition of some new endeavors by GW. If my guess is right, this is more of an attempt at GW trying to sell (as a concept) their brands to the kids parents as 'more than just a plastic toy soldier game'. If I was being a good kid, reading my young adult novels, and I wanted to get into the games, as that's sort of ' the next level' for the properties. I'd tell my parents " These are the characters from the books I like." Which, subconsciously, they are going to associate as a positive, since it's books I like to read, and reading is good! (PSSST!!... Though it still has a such a positive vibe associated with it, reading in this day & age is far less beneficial than when we were kids, as the majority of reading people do is just trashy social media. TV still has a bad stigma attached to it, despite the fact that you can actually choose to watch what you want now, you're not just limited to what is playing on a limited amount of channels... )
TLDR?
GW properties will be ok. When we start getting 2 Warhammer movies a year, and I can buy skaven at the grocery store, we might be getting close.
I agree with pretty much all of your post, but you have to consider that GW is in a peculiar situation, in the sense that while their products are ''toyish'' most of their customers (especially the younger ones/the ones that are starting in the hobby), don't want them to be seen as kids toys.
This is a fine line they are threading on (is that the english expression?), because if they start expanding more in the kid market, it could have some real negative effects down the line on the main product (and no, for these looking for a strawman, I'm not saying that only these books will cause that)
I think you’re doing teenagers a disservice, in that a large chunk of them aren’t immediately put off of something they like just because kids might also like it. Lots of teenagers like the marvel superhero films, and my 4 year old cousin has loads of marvel toys and dress up kits and stuff. Some teenagers are more mature than you give them credit for.
streetsamurai wrote: you're missing the point. Brand dilution can happen if there's an expansion in a category of product that customers don't think it fits in. As you can see by this thread and other discussion on the subject, a lot of warhammer customers dont' think these books fit with the brand. Hence why there is a risk of brand dilution.
Brand Dilution can occur, but it takes a MASSIVE amount of overuse for such a thing to happen. It also requires that the property is vague or simple enough, that it can't be stretched too far. For instance Star Wars is something that should have begun to suffer from massive brand dilution due to it being everywhere, and covering most (if not all) forms of media (games/movies/tv/music/anything else). However, since it's a pretty large and diverse property, it's been able to expand with the growth (fairly) well, as, people still seem to love Star Wars. Now, 5+ years down the line, when we' have 3 movies every year, and plenty of other stuff, will that still be the case? Not sure? On the other hand, a property like Angry Birds, which is a fun little game about sling shotting birds at pigs, has sort of run it's course, and hit the point of brand Dilution. There's just not much else you can do with it. They've even tried pairing it with Star Wars & Transformers, but, it's still been declining.
IMO, 40K & AoS are pretty diverse properties, and they'll be able to bear the addition of some new endeavors by GW. If my guess is right, this is more of an attempt at GW trying to sell (as a concept) their brands to the kids parents as 'more than just a plastic toy soldier game'. If I was being a good kid, reading my young adult novels, and I wanted to get into the games, as that's sort of ' the next level' for the properties. I'd tell my parents " These are the characters from the books I like." Which, subconsciously, they are going to associate as a positive, since it's books I like to read, and reading is good! (PSSST!!... Though it still has a such a positive vibe associated with it, reading in this day & age is far less beneficial than when we were kids, as the majority of reading people do is just trashy social media. TV still has a bad stigma attached to it, despite the fact that you can actually choose to watch what you want now, you're not just limited to what is playing on a limited amount of channels... )
TLDR?
GW properties will be ok. When we start getting 2 Warhammer movies a year, and I can buy skaven at the grocery store, we might be getting close.
I agree with pretty much all of your post, but you have to consider that GW is in a peculiar situation, in the sense that while their products are ''toyish'' most of their customers (especially the younger ones/the ones that are starting in the hobby), don't want them to be seen as kids toys.
This is a fine line they are threading on (is that the english expression?), because if they start expanding more in the kid market, it could have some real negative effects down the line on the main product (and no, for these looking for a strawman, I'm not saying that only these books will cause that)
I think you’re doing teenagers a disservice, in that a large chunk of them aren’t immediately put off of something they like just because kids might also like it. Lots of teenagers like the marvel superhero films, and my 4 year old cousin has loads of marvel toys and dress up kits and stuff. Some teenagers are more mature than you give them credit for.
Fair enough, but you have to consider that marvel is not in a niche market like gw is (talking about the movies, not the comic books). Everybody's and their mothers watch marvel movies, so it never really get the "kid thing" stigmata that gw products have. Im not sure gw would be able to pull the same trick
streetsamurai wrote: you're missing the point. Brand dilution can happen if there's an expansion in a category of product that customers don't think it fits in. As you can see by this thread and other discussion on the subject, a lot of warhammer customers dont' think these books fit with the brand. Hence why there is a risk of brand dilution.
Brand Dilution can occur, but it takes a MASSIVE amount of overuse for such a thing to happen. It also requires that the property is vague or simple enough, that it can't be stretched too far. For instance Star Wars is something that should have begun to suffer from massive brand dilution due to it being everywhere, and covering most (if not all) forms of media (games/movies/tv/music/anything else). However, since it's a pretty large and diverse property, it's been able to expand with the growth (fairly) well, as, people still seem to love Star Wars. Now, 5+ years down the line, when we' have 3 movies every year, and plenty of other stuff, will that still be the case? Not sure? On the other hand, a property like Angry Birds, which is a fun little game about sling shotting birds at pigs, has sort of run it's course, and hit the point of brand Dilution. There's just not much else you can do with it. They've even tried pairing it with Star Wars & Transformers, but, it's still been declining.
IMO, 40K & AoS are pretty diverse properties, and they'll be able to bear the addition of some new endeavors by GW. If my guess is right, this is more of an attempt at GW trying to sell (as a concept) their brands to the kids parents as 'more than just a plastic toy soldier game'. If I was being a good kid, reading my young adult novels, and I wanted to get into the games, as that's sort of ' the next level' for the properties. I'd tell my parents " These are the characters from the books I like." Which, subconsciously, they are going to associate as a positive, since it's books I like to read, and reading is good! (PSSST!!... Though it still has a such a positive vibe associated with it, reading in this day & age is far less beneficial than when we were kids, as the majority of reading people do is just trashy social media. TV still has a bad stigma attached to it, despite the fact that you can actually choose to watch what you want now, you're not just limited to what is playing on a limited amount of channels... )
TLDR?
GW properties will be ok. When we start getting 2 Warhammer movies a year, and I can buy skaven at the grocery store, we might be getting close.
I agree with pretty much all of your post, but you have to consider that GW is in a peculiar situation, in the sense that while their products are ''toyish'' most of their customers (especially the younger ones/the ones that are starting in the hobby), don't want them to be seen as kids toys.
This is a fine line they are threading on (is that the english expression?), because if they start expanding more in the kid market, it could have some real negative effects down the line on the main product (and no, for these looking for a strawman, I'm not saying that only these books will cause that)
I think you’re doing teenagers a disservice, in that a large chunk of them aren’t immediately put off of something they like just because kids might also like it. Lots of teenagers like the marvel superhero films, and my 4 year old cousin has loads of marvel toys and dress up kits and stuff. Some teenagers are more mature than you give them credit for.
Fair enough, but you have to consider that marvel is not in a niche market like gw is (talking about the movies, not the comic books). Everybody's and their mothers watch marvel movies, so it never really get the "kid thing" stigmata that gw products have. Im not sure gw would be able to pull the same trick
Marvel used to be a Kid thing, especially before the rise of Comic Book movies. It was all cartoons and children's books made using their IPs. Thing is, it was also a Geek thing/niche, and wasn't given a wider appeal until the movies really took off.
GW is in the same position as Marvel before they started to branch out.
We live in an age where most adults play games on mobile phones and where being on your phone and on the net is pretty normal; indeed to be offline and not on facebook is considered abnormal.
Super Hero films are legion and most parents today have likely got boxes of old toys that they still keep.
So yeah the old "geek hobbies" days are far far behind most people than they were "back in the day".
Soo, is there going to be a Astertes Neophyte kid, whom after some time apart from the rest of the adventurers will come back bigger and burlier as a scout, to regale the rest of the band with stories of how surgeons sliced him open and implanted artificial organs in him? And then used hypno-suggestion to train him in the ways of the battlefield?
insaniak wrote: I have to say, the negativity about this has surprised me. I mean, there's always been a small section of the community that's complained about those durned kids ruining the hobby by having the temerity to be interested in it, but this announcement seems to have really brought that to the forefront.
Without kids getting into the hobby, the hobby eventually dies. A few books aimed at kids won't destroy your hobby, and might well introduce it to kids who otherwise might not have even known it existed.
Everyone needs to take a chill pill and accept that not every product is aimed at them, and that's ok.
Demographics are important, and are often forgotten by certain sectors in their attempts to make everything fit their bizarre world view. This is why ensuring that your product meets your target audience/s is always the best first step to take.
However... this is 40K with the violence removed. The main character hates weapons. It'd be like doing a series of kid-friendly Star Trek books that never involve leaving the house the main character starts in.
insaniak wrote: I have to say, the negativity about this has surprised me. I mean, there's always been a small section of the community that's complained about those durned kids ruining the hobby by having the temerity to be interested in it, but this announcement seems to have really brought that to the forefront.
Without kids getting into the hobby, the hobby eventually dies. A few books aimed at kids won't destroy your hobby, and might well introduce it to kids who otherwise might not have even known it existed.
Everyone needs to take a chill pill and accept that not every product is aimed at them, and that's ok.
Demographics are important, and are often forgotten by certain sectors in their attempts to make everything fit their bizarre world view. This is why ensuring that your product meets your target audience/s is always the best first step to take.
However... this is 40K with the violence removed. The main character hates weapons. It'd be like doing a series of kid-friendly Star Trek books that never involve leaving the house the main character starts in.
How do we know violence is removed, exactly? The main character may hate weapons, but the ganger boy was shown wielding some sort of... metal club? But the marine and the necron clearly have their armaments.
AegisGrimm wrote: Soo, is there going to be a Astertes Neophyte kid, whom after some time apart from the rest of the adventurers will come back bigger and burlier as a scout, to regale the rest of the band with stories of how surgeons sliced him open and implanted artificial organs in him? And then used hypno-suggestion to train him in the ways of the battlefield?
I'm afraid not, but it would be glorious.
Bonus points if said kid tells his friends how glorious was when the Chapter Brothers torched all those mutants in their straw huts.
A principal character in the Gaunt's Ghosts series hates weapons. I don't see people complaining about those books.
There is absolutely space for pacifists in the setting. Also, if they remove the violence then the character trait of hating weapons never gets explored.
Also as I mentioned earlier, I picked up the first adventures in
Wild space star wars book.
In that story storm troopers are attacked, infected and killed by venomous insects. Sounds like something Nurgle would do.
The principal bad guy is an evil commander (commissar) who is permanently disfigured due to the actions of the children.
The bad guy Korda uses one of his own men as a shield.
The female hero is shot and injured.
A tie fighter pilot is shot point blank in the face by a droid.
The book ends with a space battle in which several tie fighters are destroyed.
All that happens in just 90 pages.
It is pretty simple, clearly written for a very young audience (think Roald Dahl and you won't go far wrong) but despite the heroes not being armed, the whole book is about children facing violent, dangerous situations.
Chikout wrote: A principal character in the Gaunt's Ghosts series hates weapons. I don't see people complaining about those books.
That individual doesn't seem to mind other people standing in front and using weapons when SHTF, though... and they aren't piloting a ship through the Galaxy, either.
Just pointing out the difference. I highly doubt the setting of these books is going to be anywhere as hostile as the actual 40k Universe.
It isn’t changing 40k from a brutal, nihilistic fantasy opera in space. It’s offering a different view into the universe for younger readers. It’s not aimed at us and it’s not gonna affect us
It might not. I understand we aren't it's intended audience.
This could be a good move to bring in fresh blood for the Imperial war machine.
All I'm saying is that it's a slippery slope. One I feel we are already sliding down.
Agreed. If there was no precedent for something like this, I wouldn't be concerned. However, after seeing what has happened to Magic the Gathering, the comic books industry, Star Wars & numerous other IP's, I think it is logical for the 40k community to be skeptical. What is even more concerning is that all the tell tale signs are there already & this book isn't even coming out until 2019. Anyone who raise issue with this new installment or its fit with the 40k narrative, is immediately deemed "alt-right, white supremacist nazis, who are anti-diversity & hate children". I wish that was satire.
I'm all for bringing new blood into the hobby. That is a great idea. You know the best way of doing that? Actually having visibility & end GW's war against small business owners. When I was growing up, there was 40k product everywhere. Every hobby store had it & most had tables where you could play. When I first saw 40k in a hobby store I was amazed. I had never seen anything like it. I wanted to learn more about it & get involved. Started an army & have been playing for decades. Now? You can barely find 40k product anywhere due to their trade agreements, product restrictions & reliance on the online store. Most states in the US are lucky to have 1 Games Workshop store if any. Its has no visibility, which is why most of its community is older. A comic book isn't going to resolve that. The last resurgence of 40k players were brought in by Dawn of War 1 & that Space Marine game to a lesser extent. That is where they should be looking to expand their community.
Commissar Benny wrote: Anyone who raise issue with this new installment or its fit with the 40k narrative, is immediately deemed "alt-right, white supremacist nazis, who are anti-diversity & hate children". I wish that was satire.
To be blunt, Benny, that’s largely because too many of those objections have more n‘s per minute than Blazing Saddles but without the humour. And while I hate to generalise, and I’m by no means claiming perfection anywhere else, too many of those type of posts would spell ‘humour’ without the ‘u’; America really has issues it needs to sort out.
Overread wrote: Chances are most teenagers won't see this stuff much if ever beyond the odd reference. There's a lot of kid stuff made for things that, because of marketing and where its sold, adults never see or are rarely exposed too.
How many adults do you think saw the cartoons of adult films made in the 80-90s? Chances are most never saw them until month after their kid had started watching them on the TV.
Chikout wrote: A principal character in the Gaunt's Ghosts series hates weapons. I don't see people complaining about those books.
That individual doesn't seem to mind other people standing in front and using weapons when SHTF, though... and they aren't piloting a ship through the Galaxy, either.
Just pointing out the difference. I highly doubt the setting of these books is going to be anywhere as hostile as the actual 40k Universe.
the "actual 40k universe" is not a grimdark garbage dump of misery and hatred all day, every day, everywhere, that's just the parts we're usually shown because of the usual demographic of the fiction (teens and up). There are plenty of normal people living normal lives, on normal planets, with democratic governments, safe and snug, not a torture chamber in sight. I don't know why so many people in this thread seem to think that every planet in the 40k universe is a Death World and every citizen in the Imperium is wallowing in their own misery under constant threat of being killed.
A few kids with mildly tragic backstories having adventures without beheadings, orgies and torture porn is completely within the scope of the universe and changes nothing.
Commissar Benny wrote: However, after seeing what has happened to Magic the Gathering, the comic books industry, Star Wars & numerous other IP's, I think it is logical for the 40k community to be skeptical.
You sound like someone who is afraid of “cultural marxists” now, are you afraid of “cultural marxists” ?
Commissar Benny wrote: Anyone who raise issue with this new installment or its fit with the 40k narrative, is immediately deemed "alt-right, white supremacist nazis, who are anti-diversity & hate children".
Well I did raise issue but I don't think anyone deem me “alt-right, white supremacist nazis, who are anti-diversity & hate children”. Generally I'm more deemed “evil SJW”.
Does anyone deem me alt-right nazi? Just to be clear on that.
Mymearan wrote: the "actual 40k universe" is not a grimdark garbage dump of misery and hatred all day, every day, everywhere, that's just the parts we're usually shown because of the usual demographic of the fiction (teens and up). There are plenty of normal people living normal lives, on normal planets, with democratic governments, safe and snug, not a torture chamber in sight.
It's true. You could even literally take 50 shades of gray, change a few words (add some “grox” here and there) and have it happen in the 40k universe without breaking the fluff. I just don't see how that would improve upon the 50 shades of gray version that happens on earth though.
Mymearan wrote: the "actual 40k universe" is not a grimdark garbage dump of misery and hatred all day, every day, everywhere, that's just the parts we're usually shown because of the usual demographic of the fiction (teens and up). There are plenty of normal people living normal lives, on normal planets, with democratic governments, safe and snug, not a torture chamber in sight.
It's true. You could even literally take 50 shades of gray, change a few words (add some “grox” here and there) and have it happen in the 40k universe without breaking the fluff. I just don't see how that would improve upon the 50 shades of gray version that happens on earth though.
It would obviously improve. Everything is better with a grox in it.
(The only extrange thing I have saw about this is people saying the girl with the slingshot in the Sigmar one has a hiyab... but then in her character draw in the information section she doesn't wear it... I'm the only one that saw her and first thought "ah, thats a hood"? I'm too inocent?)
And i have to admit it, the sheer amount of vitriol from the "adult" community about daring to try and bring kids into the game is god damn hilarious. I haven't laughed this hard in a while 
In fact i sent the link to my neice and two nephews about half an hour ago and they already want to read them 
posting is over in that >> general direction.
)
