Belisarius Cawl could be a saint. For one his rapid rise in the Mechanicum and also for his dangerous beliefs. WolfsBane shows that he thinks that the human from and the Astartes are superior to upgraded mechanicum humans, thinking that upgrading is a weakness and doesn't really achieve anything at the end of the day and they are impractical because they will always have to upgrade, whereas the human form doesn't is complete and can reproduce. These opinions are unthinkable for someone in the mechanicum, does he have these thoughts because he is being guided by the Emps...
Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Agreed.
Cawl and his weird Mary Sue Marines were the worst thing for 40kIMO.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
I mean 'saint' as in the Emperor using them to enact his will, not the Ecclesiarchies definition and you can still be a mary sue and be a saint, saints are mary sue by definition lol
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
I know. People said my homebrew Marine is a Mary Sue because he magically appeared from nowhere with an army and nobody cared about it. It makes total sense too. He came from the Warp.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
Yeah I don't think he's a mary sue, him suddenly creating the Primaris is just lazy writing. But there are mary sue characters and armies, the grey knights for instance and I collect them so, the ultramarines are definitely mary sue. I wouldn't say Girlyman is mary sue as he's a primarch, they all are but him being the first back and leading the imperium is. It would have been so much cooler for another primarch came back, one no so destined to lead like Girlyman or Dorn. It should have been the Khan or Russ, then you'd have a better dynamic with them struggling to lead the Imperium.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
I know. People said my homebrew Marine is a Mary Sue because he magically appeared from nowhere with an army and nobody cared about it. It makes total sense too. He came from the Warp.
thats not a homebrew Marine.. that's Kaldor Dragio
answering the original question, such a line of thought may be unthinkable in the adeptus mechancius (maybe less then you think though, the existance of Magos Biologists even in M 41 suggests some admech individuals do take a closer eye towards biological sciences) Cawl is certainly a radical but when one looks at the enviroment at the time it makes sense some would have such thoughts. The Omnisah has appered and seems to just be an unaugmented man, his servants of choice? biologically enhanced individuals. realisticly it makes sense at least a small minority of matian tech adepts are thinking "hey wait, is THIS the pinnical of human self improvement? have we perhaps been ignoring a valid tech branch?"
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
and remember just because he came from no where does not mean he's a mary sue eaither. plenty of damn good stories have a guy come in later to the story only for us to learn of their importance. in TESB Ypda was just a strange old hermit who knew the ways of the jedi, it was only when the prequals came out he was "retconned" to "ohh by the way he was the grandmaster of the order!"
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill
blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill
blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
1. The Emperor wasn't perfect so it isn't out of possibility to improve on it. Fabius Bile has been doing the same thing but nobody cares enough to call him a Mary Sue.
2. He IS kinda the big boss. The Director Of Nursing in my building is a more skilled nurse than the other nurses. Sometimes you're the boss for a reason.
3. That's his position of power and he has little friends to show it. Radical Inquisitors can be thought of in the same way.
4. See Point #3 basically.
5. The implication he's gone so far down the rabbit hole is saying he's a Mary Sue? I thought flaws were supposed to be good!
6. Newly introduced characters will always have that issue. Look at Trazyn. You don't HATE Trazyn do you?
7. Your problem here is the same as Point #1.
8. I don't think you know what an Apothecary does to make that statement.
The flaws are there. You just refuse to accept them due to hating Primaris it looks like. He isn't a Mary Sue. Get over it.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill
blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
He is not better at the Emperor at making marines. When Corax worked on the Primarch project they realised that they could make better marines. The Emperor made marines for the great crusade and only for that, he made them tailored for a reason, to take the galaxy, he knew how to make better marines, he just made what he needed to make. Its all in Deliverence lost. He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways same with the new tech and Girlyman has allowed him to make new tech now. Plus the Emperor made the Primarchs, something Cawl can't do.
Are primaris better than standard marines, yes, did cawl make them, yes.
Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters).
" He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways."
with no repercussions.... how is that NOT mary sue, its literally breaking one of the biggest rules of the mechanicus ???
A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.
Are primaris better than standard marines, yes, did cawl make them, yes.
Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters).
" He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways."
with no repercussions.... how is that NOT mary sue, its literally breaking one of the biggest rules of the mechanicus ???
You need to read Deliverence lost, it explicitly says that the Emperor 'could' have made 'better' marines. Cawl did make better marines, but he didn't do what the Emperor couldn't, which is what you Implied, you can't get away with semantics. Deliverence lost has 'everything' to do with the Primarch project, you should read it before debate the book, most of the book was about it.
Who says anyone found out that he made an A.I. why do you think there is so much security around it, that only Girlyman could use it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. The Emperor wasn't perfect so it isn't out of possibility to improve on it. Fabius Bile has been doing the same thing but nobody cares enough to call him a Mary Sue.
Fabious Bile is very different from Cawl. Fabious Bile is a Chaos character who can therefore freely experiment without care for anything, and especially without any moral concern. His creations are experiments that have flaws, detected or not, that won't stop them from being used on the battlefield, but that do prevent them from replacing normal marines.
Are primaris better than standard marines, yes, did cawl make them, yes.
Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters).
" He was never allowed to make A.I. he just did it anyways."
with no repercussions.... how is that NOT mary sue, its literally breaking one of the biggest rules of the mechanicus ???
You need to read Deliverence lost, it explicitly says that the Emperor 'could' have made 'better' marines. Cawl did make better marines, but he didn't do what the Emperor couldn't, which is what you Implied, you can't get away with semantics. Deliverence lost has 'everything' to do with the Primarch project, you should read it before debate the book, most of the book was about it.
Who says anyone found out that he made an A.I. why do you think there is so much security around it, that only Girlyman could use it.
Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for.
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.
1. He isn't perfect and has enemies.
2. He is for sure not an author-insert.
3. Being alive for 1000s of years kinda adds to the experience of what you can do.
So there ya go. By your own definition, he isn't a Mary Sue. You just don't like him and want to label him as such.
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. The Emperor wasn't perfect so it isn't out of possibility to improve on it. Fabius Bile has been doing the same thing but nobody cares enough to call him a Mary Sue.
Fabious Bile is very different from Cawl. Fabious Bile is a Chaos character who can therefore freely experiment without care for anything, and especially without any moral concern. His creations are experiments that have flaws, detected or not, that won't stop them from being used on the battlefield, but that do prevent them from replacing normal marines.
But Bile has less resources to go with too. Otherwise it would've been done already. He DID clone Horus already after all.
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
You were the one lying in the past, saying that the Lion tried to teach Russ a lesson in the fight when he didn't. You are lying here, editing your comments after I have shown that you haven't read the book or that you know what you are talking about. Your a pathetic liar. you make gak up to win arguments, you've done it here resorting to semantics trying to say you meant something else. I'll post the quotes but everyone that read this thread and has read Deliverence lost will tell you before that anyways. How do you think they made enhanced marines... The emperor used the Primarch project to make the marines, what did Corax use... the Primarch project obviously.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: But Bile has less resources to go with too. Otherwise it would've been done already. He DID clone Horus already after all.
I'm not sure he would have done something akin to primaris marines, aka marines but superior in every way. Seems more likely he would have mode something like "marines but better at fighting yet have dangerous mental problems" or "marines but better at fighting yet dies/mutate very fast" or anything with a similar flaw that isn't actually a flaw from his/Chaos point of view.
Well that's my opinion anyway and I admit it's not based specifically on official fluff or anything. Just seems more thematically appropriate to me .
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?
"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the
same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus.
I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’
Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head.
For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned
more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through
him.
In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before,
the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered
if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic
might of the Emperor.
Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a
succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling
against the patterns and images thrust into his brain.
He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of
respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the
heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel
sarcophagus.
The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in
a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods
drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white.
Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each,
satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction.
There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms
each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells
though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the
template integration.
Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases
came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the
primarch felt on the verge of recognition.
Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast
repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well,
placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation
calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever
successfully cloned human gene-code.
He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind
that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed.
Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the
primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.
There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena
that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being
reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes.
He knew where that place was.
Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting
patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him.
‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of
amazement."
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?
"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the
same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus.
I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’
Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head.
For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned
more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through
him.
In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before,
the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered
if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic
might of the Emperor.
Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a
succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling
against the patterns and images thrust into his brain.
He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of
respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the
heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel
sarcophagus.
The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in
a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods
drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white.
Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each,
satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction.
There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms
each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells
though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the
template integration.
Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases
came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the
primarch felt on the verge of recognition.
Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast
repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well,
placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation
calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever
successfully cloned human gene-code.
He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind
that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed.
Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the
primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.
There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena
that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being
reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes.
He knew where that place was.
Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting
patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him.
‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of
amazement."
Hahahhahahaha, nowhere in there does it show a link, see your making things up again
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?
"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the
same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus.
I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’
Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head.
For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned
more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through
him.
In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before,
the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered
if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic
might of the Emperor.
Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a
succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling
against the patterns and images thrust into his brain.
He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of
respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the
heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel
sarcophagus.
The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in
a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods
drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white.
Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each,
satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction.
There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms
each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells
though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the
template integration.
Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases
came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the
primarch felt on the verge of recognition.
Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast
repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well,
placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation
calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever
successfully cloned human gene-code.
He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind
that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed.
Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the
primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.
There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena
that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being
reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes.
He knew where that place was.
Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting
patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him.
‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of
amazement."
Hahahhahahaha, nowhere in there does it show a link, see your making things up again
Yes it does hang on I'll qoute some more then
‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the
Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the
Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto
our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the
appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single
primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’
‘The primarch genetic coding is vastly more complex than standard Raven Guard gene-seed,’the
Apothecary explained. ‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the
Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the
Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto
our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the
appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single
primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’
‘Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to
identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability,
above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced
genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of
nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is
a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject
twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. In all, we have catalogued seven
hundred and eighty-three variations between the samples. This leaves the common, core material, the
primarch essence for want of a better term, exceptionally small compared to what I expected.’
‘I see,’said Corax. He knew enough about genetic manipulation to understand the problem they
were facing, but even his extensive biological knowledge was insufficient to propose a solution. He
stared at the screen for some time, letting the revolving images of different cell helices float into his
consciousness. He studied the data tables, absorbing the information without consciously reading it,
hoping it would trigger some insight from the Emperor.
All he could remember was sadness.
It was a struggle to keep motivated, to repeat the research that had taken so many centuries to
perfect. All had been swept away by… By what, Corax could not quite remember. The Emperor’s
memories were blank on the matter. The primarch concentrated on what had happened after the period
of ignorance.
There was hope in his heart. His ambition had been misplaced. Rather than create twenty
superhuman warriors, he could create thousands, hundreds of thousands of next-generation soldiers.
Each would have a fraction of the power of the primarchs, it was true, but their numbers would more
than make up for the difference. Corax held an image for a moment, a picture of rank after rank of
armoured warriors, fists and banners raised in salute. He would create an army. Something more than
an army: a Legion.
Intellect fired by his imagination, he set to work with this new goal in mind. There was no need to
create this Legion from a single zygotic embryo. Humanity numbered in its billions, just on Terra
alone. Through Corax’s thoughts, the Emperor discarded swathes of the primarch genetic data,
deemed redundant in light of his new plans. He focused on amending all of his findings from the
primarch project, filtering out those abilities and traits that could only be gene-bred from inception,
concentrating on transferable, implantable genetic strands.
The primarch latched onto those memories, delving deeper. As he did so, Corax edged Sixx aside
and pulled a touch-screen interface closer. Hesitantly at first, he began to tap the screen, navigating
his way through the mass of coded information. His fingers picked up speed as the memories came
faster and faster. Fingertips dancing over the screen, Corax delved into the intricacies of the primarch
genes, separating out those sequences and proteins discarded by the Emperor, following in his
creator’s remembered footsteps. The shifting displays and tables blurred as the primarch continued,
isolating gene-fragments and cell duplication segments, tossing some aside, moving others into a
separate partition.
For five minutes he worked at furious pace, linking unconscious recall to conscious action.
Orlandriaz had moved up beside him at some point and was staring at the flow of information
spreading across the screens, nodding ferociously while he muttered to himself.
Corax stopped, taking a deep breath as he straightened.
‘Masterful,’ whispered Orlandriaz.
‘Perhaps if you could spare us five more minutes, lord, we could solve the whole problem,’said
Sixx, grinning broadly.
‘If only it were that simple,’said Corax. He had not worked out anything, simply remembered it.
The Emperor had never attempted to create what Corax sought, and so there was no base of
knowledge for him to recall. ‘That still leaves you with seventy-two different gene-strands to
analyse.’
‘A moment, please,’said Orlandriaz, laying his hand on Corax’s arm as the primarch turned away.
Corax glanced down in annoyance at the magos’s clutching fingers, noticing that the tech-priest’s
fingernails looked to be made of a dull bronze. Realising his error, Nexin took his hand away and
nodded his head in apology.
‘Forgive me, Lord Corax,’said the magos. ‘Whilst taking a break from our analystical studies, the
Chief Apothecary and I engaged in a debate that was without resolution. I seek your opinion on the
matter.’
‘What debate?’ asked Corax, darting a look at Sixx, who was frowning at his companion.
‘It is my belief that your plans could be taken a stage further,’said the magos.
‘It is out of the question,’said Sixx, making a cutting motion with his hand. ‘It is against our every
principle.’
‘What is?’said Corax.
‘It seems that we might actually make our task easier if we were to incept the project from an
initial cellular generation, rather than hybridisation of an existing organism.’
‘Cloning,’snapped Sixx. ‘The magos thinks we should clone new warriors from scratch rather than
modify the gene-seed for implantation. I reminded him that there are many more complications
associated with such a process, not to mention the problems it will create in the future.’
‘Your arguments were irrational,’said Orlandriaz, scowling back at the Chief Apothecary.
‘Emotive.’
‘Every possibility must be explored,’said Corax. He raised a hand to silence a protest from Sixx.
A passing thought of the Emperor had surfaced in his mind, a philosophical point his creator had
concluded when the primarchs had been taken from him.
‘With that said, direct cloning must be considered only as a final option if there is no other
solution. Magos, there is good reason why the Emperor did not directly clone his new Legions from a
single template cell. The resultant legionaries would be identical. Without the random mutation
present in the wider human genetic structure, there is no possibility for variation. The Legiones
Astartes are successful because we are similar, but not identical. Qualities such as leadership,
intellect and aptitude for different disciplines allow us to be flexible and to fulfil many roles.
‘Even the primarchs were not created equal in all measures. The Emperor understood the
importance of variation. Beyond that, there is another consideration. The Legiones Astartes are
humanity’s warriors, separated and superior in many ways, but always raised up from amongst those
they lead and protect. A legionary may be a neo-human, but he was once human. A legionary is the
incarnation of the Emperor’s plan, a perfect symbol and example for mankind to aspire to, not simply
a tool of war. It is humanity that the Emperor will lead in the conquest of the galaxy, not some new
species made to order in a laboratory.’
‘Thank you, lord,’said Sixx, with a sidelong look at Orlandriaz. ‘More eloquent than I could ever
phrase it.’
‘I understand your position and reasoning,’said the magos. ‘I will comply with your direction.’
‘Make it work,’said Corax. ‘That perfect symbol has been tarnished by Horus. I would see it shine
brightly again.
‘Reactions and strength are better than a matured legionary,’said Branne. ‘I’ve never seen anything
like it.’
‘Which is fine for unarmoured, unarmed combat,’ replied Corax. ‘Those advantages will be much
reduced when they have their power armour.’
‘I’ve been thinking about that, lord,’said Branne, eyes fixed on the two warriors sparring. ‘The
new Mark VI suits… They’re far superior to anything else we have, except for a few artificer suits
for officers, and even they’re pretty bashed up. We can’t implant the experience and guile of a veteran
into these men, but the new armour and their advanced systems would go some way to helping with
that.’
‘I was thinking the same,’said the primarch. ‘These are not just recruits, they are the start of
something new for the Legion. I have told Sixx to progress with another one hundred implantations. If
we can successfully scale up, you’ll have a fighting force within fifty days. Commander of Recruits
doesn’t seem to reflect your role properly.’
Branne glanced at his leader.
‘You said this would be a combat force when you gave me the title, lord.’
‘They need a name, Branne,’said Corax. ‘We can’t keep calling them recruits, but it isn’t right that
they simply get absorbed by Agapito’s Talons.’
‘I have a suggestion,’said Branne.
‘Then share it, commander.’
‘We have the Talons, Falcons and Hawks, lord. I think we should be the Raptors.’
‘The Raptors?’ Corax smiled and placed a massive hand on Branne’s shoulder. ‘Yes, that will suit
perfectly. Swift hunters. You are the Commander of the Raptors now. I’ll inform Agapito, Solaro and
Aloni.’
With a grunt and a thud, the legiona
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill
blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
ok 1: he isn't better, it's very clear he was working from the emperor's notes. for all we know Cawl was just handed a folder titled "Space Marines MK2" that had been sitting on the emperor's desk.
2: No he's not. nothing we've seen him deploy has been radically better then what the IoM already had. he simply made logical developments of technology that was already there.
3: No true at all, we've only seen Cawl in 2 books thus far. (one being wolfsbane) and he suffered concequences for his "heresy"
4: Cawl is hardly the first nor the last of the admech to play with Xenos tech.
5: only because he's essential right now. that'll change.
6: not being in the public eye is how you avoid notice
7: given blood angel Primaris Marines still have the red thrirst rule I doubt that.
8: Bile's lacked access to the emperor's notes and thus had to learn via trial and error experimentation. given the effects of the warp also likely mean reduced time for him yeah I can see Cawl beating him
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill
blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
ok 1: he isn't better, it's very clear he was working from the emperor's notes. for all we know Cawl was just handed a folder titled "Space Marines MK2" that had been sitting on the emperor's desk.
2: No he's not. nothing we've seen him deploy has been radically better then what the IoM already had. he simply made logical developments of technology that was already there.
3: No true at all, we've only seen Cawl in 2 books thus far. (one being wolfsbane) and he suffered concequences for his "heresy"
4: Cawl is hardly the first nor the last of the admech to play with Xenos tech.
5: only because he's essential right now. that'll change.
6: not being in the public eye is how you avoid notice
7: given blood angel Primaris Marines still have the red thrirst rule I doubt that.
8: Bile's lacked access to the emperor's notes and thus had to learn via trial and error experimentation. given the effects of the warp also likely mean reduced time for him yeah I can see Cawl beating him
1: thats the point we dont know, so based on what we do know he made better marines out of ???
2: all of the gear we see the marines use is a straight upgrade, and logical developments in technology is also not what the ad mech do, its tech heresy.
3: yes its completely true so far, in the 40k timeline he is making things and not getting hit with the tech heresy bat, cos reasons and guilliman.
4: yep and the others get murdered to death when they dabble, not Cawl though... cos Deus ex!
5: yep totally agree, infact almost all of this is a "lets see what happens next"
6: really? and all those guns being manufactured? marines in stasis? its the bat cave nonsense again, SOMEONE would have noticed.
7: thank god you know the difference lol, so many people think the red thirst is the black rage, anyway, thats a rule mechanic and not supported by the fluff... yet, looking forward to reading it when it is.
8: Bile made a primarch.... but lets be clear here, I dont expect Bile to make primaris, but in the last 10k years I would have expected the greatest apothecary alive to have made something akin to them, but Cawl did....
The problem is Cawl is mainly this, comes from nowhere, massively changes the setting, helping to revive a primarch, creates new weapons, tanks and other tech touched upon in dark imperium... thats pretty mary sue in and of itself in THIS setting, but like I said, I dont think he is the worst offender.
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?
"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus. I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’ Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head. For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through him. In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before, the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic might of the Emperor. Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling against the patterns and images thrust into his brain. He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel sarcophagus. The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white. Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each, satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction. There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the template integration. Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the primarch felt on the verge of recognition. Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well, placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever successfully cloned human gene-code. He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed. Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much. There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes. He knew where that place was. Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him. ‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of amazement."
Hahahhahahaha, nowhere in there does it show a link, see your making things up again
Yes it does hang on I'll qoute some more then
‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’
‘The primarch genetic coding is vastly more complex than standard Raven Guard gene-seed,’the Apothecary explained. ‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’ ‘Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. In all, we have catalogued seven hundred and eighty-three variations between the samples. This leaves the common, core material, the primarch essence for want of a better term, exceptionally small compared to what I expected.’ ‘I see,’said Corax. He knew enough about genetic manipulation to understand the problem they were facing, but even his extensive biological knowledge was insufficient to propose a solution. He stared at the screen for some time, letting the revolving images of different cell helices float into his consciousness. He studied the data tables, absorbing the information without consciously reading it, hoping it would trigger some insight from the Emperor. All he could remember was sadness. It was a struggle to keep motivated, to repeat the research that had taken so many centuries to perfect. All had been swept away by… By what, Corax could not quite remember. The Emperor’s memories were blank on the matter. The primarch concentrated on what had happened after the period of ignorance. There was hope in his heart. His ambition had been misplaced. Rather than create twenty superhuman warriors, he could create thousands, hundreds of thousands of next-generation soldiers. Each would have a fraction of the power of the primarchs, it was true, but their numbers would more than make up for the difference. Corax held an image for a moment, a picture of rank after rank of armoured warriors, fists and banners raised in salute. He would create an army. Something more than an army: a Legion. Intellect fired by his imagination, he set to work with this new goal in mind. There was no need to create this Legion from a single zygotic embryo. Humanity numbered in its billions, just on Terra alone. Through Corax’s thoughts, the Emperor discarded swathes of the primarch genetic data, deemed redundant in light of his new plans. He focused on amending all of his findings from the primarch project, filtering out those abilities and traits that could only be gene-bred from inception, concentrating on transferable, implantable genetic strands. The primarch latched onto those memories, delving deeper. As he did so, Corax edged Sixx aside and pulled a touch-screen interface closer. Hesitantly at first, he began to tap the screen, navigating his way through the mass of coded information. His fingers picked up speed as the memories came faster and faster. Fingertips dancing over the screen, Corax delved into the intricacies of the primarch genes, separating out those sequences and proteins discarded by the Emperor, following in his creator’s remembered footsteps. The shifting displays and tables blurred as the primarch continued, isolating gene-fragments and cell duplication segments, tossing some aside, moving others into a separate partition. For five minutes he worked at furious pace, linking unconscious recall to conscious action. Orlandriaz had moved up beside him at some point and was staring at the flow of information spreading across the screens, nodding ferociously while he muttered to himself. Corax stopped, taking a deep breath as he straightened. ‘Masterful,’ whispered Orlandriaz. ‘Perhaps if you could spare us five more minutes, lord, we could solve the whole problem,’said Sixx, grinning broadly. ‘If only it were that simple,’said Corax. He had not worked out anything, simply remembered it. The Emperor had never attempted to create what Corax sought, and so there was no base of knowledge for him to recall. ‘That still leaves you with seventy-two different gene-strands to analyse.’ ‘A moment, please,’said Orlandriaz, laying his hand on Corax’s arm as the primarch turned away. Corax glanced down in annoyance at the magos’s clutching fingers, noticing that the tech-priest’s fingernails looked to be made of a dull bronze. Realising his error, Nexin took his hand away and nodded his head in apology. ‘Forgive me, Lord Corax,’said the magos. ‘Whilst taking a break from our analystical studies, the Chief Apothecary and I engaged in a debate that was without resolution. I seek your opinion on the matter.’ ‘What debate?’ asked Corax, darting a look at Sixx, who was frowning at his companion. ‘It is my belief that your plans could be taken a stage further,’said the magos. ‘It is out of the question,’said Sixx, making a cutting motion with his hand. ‘It is against our every principle.’ ‘What is?’said Corax. ‘It seems that we might actually make our task easier if we were to incept the project from an initial cellular generation, rather than hybridisation of an existing organism.’ ‘Cloning,’snapped Sixx. ‘The magos thinks we should clone new warriors from scratch rather than modify the gene-seed for implantation. I reminded him that there are many more complications associated with such a process, not to mention the problems it will create in the future.’ ‘Your arguments were irrational,’said Orlandriaz, scowling back at the Chief Apothecary. ‘Emotive.’ ‘Every possibility must be explored,’said Corax. He raised a hand to silence a protest from Sixx. A passing thought of the Emperor had surfaced in his mind, a philosophical point his creator had concluded when the primarchs had been taken from him. ‘With that said, direct cloning must be considered only as a final option if there is no other solution. Magos, there is good reason why the Emperor did not directly clone his new Legions from a single template cell. The resultant legionaries would be identical. Without the random mutation present in the wider human genetic structure, there is no possibility for variation. The Legiones Astartes are successful because we are similar, but not identical. Qualities such as leadership, intellect and aptitude for different disciplines allow us to be flexible and to fulfil many roles. ‘Even the primarchs were not created equal in all measures. The Emperor understood the importance of variation. Beyond that, there is another consideration. The Legiones Astartes are humanity’s warriors, separated and superior in many ways, but always raised up from amongst those they lead and protect. A legionary may be a neo-human, but he was once human. A legionary is the incarnation of the Emperor’s plan, a perfect symbol and example for mankind to aspire to, not simply a tool of war. It is humanity that the Emperor will lead in the conquest of the galaxy, not some new species made to order in a laboratory.’ ‘Thank you, lord,’said Sixx, with a sidelong look at Orlandriaz. ‘More eloquent than I could ever phrase it.’ ‘I understand your position and reasoning,’said the magos. ‘I will comply with your direction.’ ‘Make it work,’said Corax. ‘That perfect symbol has been tarnished by Horus. I would see it shine brightly again.
‘Reactions and strength are better than a matured legionary,’said Branne. ‘I’ve never seen anything like it.’ ‘Which is fine for unarmoured, unarmed combat,’ replied Corax. ‘Those advantages will be much reduced when they have their power armour.’ ‘I’ve been thinking about that, lord,’said Branne, eyes fixed on the two warriors sparring. ‘The new Mark VI suits… They’re far superior to anything else we have, except for a few artificer suits for officers, and even they’re pretty bashed up. We can’t implant the experience and guile of a veteran into these men, but the new armour and their advanced systems would go some way to helping with that.’ ‘I was thinking the same,’said the primarch. ‘These are not just recruits, they are the start of something new for the Legion. I have told Sixx to progress with another one hundred implantations. If we can successfully scale up, you’ll have a fighting force within fifty days. Commander of Recruits doesn’t seem to reflect your role properly.’ Branne glanced at his leader. ‘You said this would be a combat force when you gave me the title, lord.’ ‘They need a name, Branne,’said Corax. ‘We can’t keep calling them recruits, but it isn’t right that they simply get absorbed by Agapito’s Talons.’ ‘I have a suggestion,’said Branne. ‘Then share it, commander.’ ‘We have the Talons, Falcons and Hawks, lord. I think we should be the Raptors.’ ‘The Raptors?’ Corax smiled and placed a massive hand on Branne’s shoulder. ‘Yes, that will suit perfectly. Swift hunters. You are the Commander of the Raptors now. I’ll inform Agapito, Solaro and Aloni.’ With a grunt and a thud, the legiona
The ravenguard use the primarch goo to create enhanced space marines, they are stronger, faster and tougher than the standard astartes, the process is also a hell of a lot faster, creating marines in days/weeks where it would otherwise take years.
This process uses an enhanced geneseed, where as the primaris project uses several new organs in addition to the standard suit of marine organs to make primaris, the primaris process also takes the standard amount of time to create a marine as far as we know so far, it can also apparently be used to make standard marines primaris but we havent got any fluff examples of this so far.
Delvarus seems to think that this process is the same, where as I disagree, he also seems to think the primaris project and the ravenguard project are connected, where as I disagree as they are clearly not connected.
Yeah I sorta got the vibe that he had nothing to back his claim, why else post such long and boring text instead of on-point quote.
Anyway spent way too much time fixing that stupid quote pile but now I'm pretty proud of myself.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah I sorta got the vibe that he had nothing to back his claim, why else post such long and boring text instead of on-point quote.
Anyway spent way too much time fixing that stupid quote pile but now I'm pretty proud of myself.
And Formosa isn't telling you the whole thing.
Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
2. The Emperor knew they could be improved upon in the first place and that this batch was for The Great Crusade
3. We have multiple examples of improved Space Marines, though with drawbacks due to the circumstances they were made.
4. So it really isn't out of place Cawl can't make improves Space Marines
5. Therefore Formosa can check off the part that making Space Marines better makes him a Mary Sue
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
True but at the same time, we know the Raven Guards failure was due to the Alpha Legion mucking it up wasn't it? What we know about thge project is that, granted access to the primarch genetic information, it is possiable to improve upon space Marines.
We know for a fact Cawl had access to SOME of the primarch genetic data. (one of the organs is directly based on a primarch organ) so it's proably fair that a dedicated biologist can do what a team of apocatharies did with the same information.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
Only because of the settings each of those attempts were done in. A little bit of context is needed there.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah I sorta got the vibe that he had nothing to back his claim, why else post such long and boring text instead of on-point quote.
Anyway spent way too much time fixing that stupid quote pile but now I'm pretty proud of myself.
And Formosa isn't telling you the whole thing.
Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
2. The Emperor knew they could be improved upon in the first place and that this batch was for The Great Crusade
3. We have multiple examples of improved Space Marines, though with drawbacks due to the circumstances they were made.
4. So it really isn't out of place Cawl can't make improves Space Marines
5. Therefore Formosa can check off the part that making Space Marines better makes him a Mary Sue
1: No he doesnt.
"Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for it"
2: And? were talking about Cawl and your made up connection to Ravenguard enhanced marines.
3: no we dont, we have multiple examples of failed experiments and sabotage to make better marines.
4: yes it is, it breaks one of the mainstays of the setting, that the creation of space marines was only something the emperor could have done and others had tried but ultimately have failed, but not cawl... for reasons.
5: therefore I maintain the same position that I have maintained throughout, Cawl is a bit mary sue, Primaris project and Ravenguard enhanced marines are NOT connected.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
True but at the same time, we know the Raven Guards failure was due to the Alpha Legion mucking it up wasn't it? What we know about thge project is that, granted access to the primarch genetic information, it is possiable to improve upon space Marines.
We know for a fact Cawl had access to SOME of the primarch genetic data. (one of the organs is directly based on a primarch organ) so it's proably fair that a dedicated biologist can do what a team of apocatharies did with the same information.
Yep, and I have no issue with that, I have just maintained that the two projects had nothing to do with each other, the primarch goo on deliverence was destroyed as was any data that they gained from it, only the Alpha legion have it now, which is a loose end that needs tying up in the heresy series.
I suppose it's possiable that a HH novel could end up tying that lose end and also bringing the Primaris project forward. Cawl's part in Wolfsbane has him fleeing a station, I suppose the next time we see him he runs afoul of the Alpha Legion and flees after he steels their "raptor project" DNA. I do have a hunch we're going to see Cawl apper more often. He DOES need to be fleshed out a bit.
Formosa wrote: Phew, long read, once again, nothing linking it to cawl and the primaris project.
I never said anything about Cawl and the Primarch project and neither did you. You are lying again, you said 'a link between the Deliverence lost enhanced marines and the Primarch project'. I even said "The emperor used the Primarch project to make the marines, what did Corax use... the Primarch project obviously." if you were actually talking about Cawl then you would have said so every time I said Corax and Diliverence lost. again you are proven wrong so you change your argument... pathetic.
The ravenguard use the primarch goo to create enhanced space marines, they are stronger, faster and tougher than the standard astartes, the process is also a hell of a lot faster, creating marines in days/weeks where it would otherwise take years.
This process uses an enhanced geneseed, where as the primaris project uses several new organs in addition to the standard suit of marine organs to make primaris, the primaris process also takes the standard amount of time to create a marine as far as we know so far, it can also apparently be used to make standard marines primaris but we havent got any fluff examples of this so far.
Delvarus seems to think that this process is the same, where as I disagree, he also seems to think the primaris project and the ravenguard project are connected, where as I disagree as they are clearly not connected.
long story short.
You haven't even read the book and you are continuing to talk like you have.
Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
BrianDavion wrote: True but at the same time, we know the Raven Guards failure was due to the Alpha Legion mucking it up wasn't it?
Something that we learned much later than the original introduction of the failed Raven Guard super marines, and imho the version where it just failed without explanation was better for the tone.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
BrianDavion wrote: I suppose it's possiable that a HH novel could end up tying that lose end and also bringing the Primaris project forward. Cawl's part in Wolfsbane has him fleeing a station, I suppose the next time we see him he runs afoul of the Alpha Legion and flees after he steels their "raptor project" DNA. I do have a hunch we're going to see Cawl apper more often. He DOES need to be fleshed out a bit.
Yeah I also think its a possibility and Cawl does indeed need to be fleshed out, at the moment he is just a plot device to hand wave things into the setting, but I am looking foward to seeing exactly how he achieved some of the things he has.
Formosa wrote: Phew, long read, once again, nothing linking it to cawl and the primaris project.
I never said anything about Cawl and the Primarch project and neither did you. You are lying again, you said 'a link between the Deliverence lost enhanced marines and the Primarch project'. I even said "The emperor used the Primarch project to make the marines, what did Corax use... the Primarch project obviously." if you were actually talking about Cawl then you would have said so every time I said Corax and Diliverence lost. again you are proven wrong so you change your argument... pathetic.
The ravenguard use the primarch goo to create enhanced space marines, they are stronger, faster and tougher than the standard astartes, the process is also a hell of a lot faster, creating marines in days/weeks where it would otherwise take years.
This process uses an enhanced geneseed, where as the primaris project uses several new organs in addition to the standard suit of marine organs to make primaris, the primaris process also takes the standard amount of time to create a marine as far as we know so far, it can also apparently be used to make standard marines primaris but we havent got any fluff examples of this so far.
Delvarus seems to think that this process is the same, where as I disagree, he also seems to think the primaris project and the ravenguard project are connected, where as I disagree as they are clearly not connected.
long story short.
You haven't even read the book and you are continuing to talk like you have.
"When Corax worked on the Primarch project they realised that they could make better marines. The Emperor made marines for the great crusade and only for that, he made them tailored for a reason, to take the galaxy, he knew how to make better marines, he just made what he needed to make. Its all in Deliverence lost."
"Deliverence lost has 'everything' to do with the Primarch project, you should read it before debate the book, most of the book was about it."
"this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol"
Ah quotes are a wonderful thing.
"Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters). "
"Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
To which you still have not supplied and answer to, I have been consistent throughout, you however have tried to form a link between two things that have no link other than in your head canon, you have even posted quotes that show you to be wrong but still try to maintain that you are correct, this is pretty standard behaviour for you though, passing off wrong information and resorting to insults and tantrums when others refuse to accept your nonsense.
You have proved nothing and continue to prove nothing and have resorted to the "nuh uh, you are" defence that you resorted to last time, this is why I so easily dismiss whayever you say, notice how I dont talk to others in the same manner I talk to you, even when they disagree with me, its because I trust their word on the subject, not you though, you have a track record of making things up.
I like how "He could have made the Space Marines better but he didn't because he just needed to conquer the whole galaxy with them, so no need to go for the best possible version" is an actual argument in this discussion .
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I like how "He could have made the Space Marines better but he didn't because he just needed to conquer the whole galaxy with them, so no need to go for the best possible version" is an actual argument in this discussion .
And its in Deliverence lost, so I don't know why you 'like' that. The Emperor didn't plan on having marines after the great crusade, they were most likely going to end up diplomats, enforcers etc or go the way of the thunder warriors so you wouldn't want to make them too strong if you plan on taking them out in the future. The emperor didn't know there would be an eternal war when he made the legions, they were a means to an end. Plus he made the Primarchs, its safe to assume that he could make better marines if he can create them.
Wasn't confirmed in the Warmaster that both Space Marines and Primarchs were designed to fail and to die after the horus heresy? The ones that survive, of course.
The Space Marines are not the "Emperor bests", those are the Custodes. And even the Custodes are just tools for the Emperor, Space Marines are nothing more than ants to him. Hes playing a RTS agaisnt Chaos. He made space marines has how he needed them. Mass produced super soldiers. Cawl didn't improved the Emperor's best work. He improved one work that had a big room for improvement and never was actually that "good" of a work by Emperor standards.
Both Primarchs and Custodes are much better than space marines, and they where made by the emperor much earlier.
Galas wrote: Wasn't confirmed in the Warmaster that both Space Marines and Primarchs were designed to fail and to die after the horus heresy? The ones that survive, of course.
The Space Marines are not the "Emperor bests", those are the Custodes. And even the Custodes are just tools for the Emperor, Space Marines are nothing more than ants to him. Hes playing a RTS agaisnt Chaos. He made space marines has how he needed them. Mass produced super soldiers. Cawl didn't improved the Emperor's best work. He improved one work that had a big room for improvement and never was actually that "good" of a work by Emperor standards.
Both Primarchs and Custodes are much better than space marines, and they where made by the emperor much earlier.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?
The Big E was a bean counter, a This is just enough if nothing goes wrong but nothing went wrong the first time kind of guy.
Shame he didn't make contingency plans.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium. Whether they are in real space or not is irrelevant, Girlyman was brought in as an Ex Machina, all the Primarchs coming back are, their return doesn't have to be anticipated at all, plus Girlyman was brought out of his coma from nowhere, suddenly the eldar come and save him, palease.
Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Well, of course if a Primarch like Guilliman came back, one who is a noted leader and statesman, it's perfectly logical he'd be leader of the Imperium. That's not a bad thing.
The main thing that I think you're fixated on is the fact it was Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, who came back, not that they became leader of the Imperium (a role which has been filled by regular Space Marines, I might add, and which Guilliman has occupied before.
You say Ultramarines are the poster boys - they're the poster boys in that it's their colour scheme which is used for everything. Ward's fluff is behind us. But frankly, even if we were to change the colour schemes on the front of every box, and then make another Chapter the face of the brand (and let's face it, every brand has one - even Stormcast have a favoured Stormhost over the others - do you see people kicking up a fuss there?), I can guarantee there'd still be people complaining it was the Ultramarines.
Frankly, if the Ultramarines get any kind of recognition, even if it makes logical sense, people will complain because "it's the Ultramarines".
Whether they are in real space or not is irrelevant, Girlyman was brought in as an Ex Machina, all the Primarchs coming back are, their return doesn't have to be anticipated at all, plus Girlyman was brought out of his coma from nowhere, suddenly the eldar come and save him, palease.
Actually, no.
Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting. It's akin to Chekov's Gun - if the gun is shown, it will be fired. We are shown the positions and statuses of Lion and Guilliman. One of them would return. Hence, Chekov's Gun.
With all the others, especially ones who went into the Warp, it would literally be a case of "they came out of the Warp one day". There's no suspsense, no building tension, no stakes - they just pop out and they're there again.
Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems".
The reason why Guilliman was brought back was obvious from previous books and the motives of the Ynnari: they want to use humanity as a blocking force, with Guilliman bolstering a faltering Imperium. It's in character, and foreshadowed in a lot of recent Eldar material, especially Fracturing of Biel-Tan.
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pm713 wrote: Want to cut down the text walls people?
Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.
Guilliman was never dead. He was moments from it, but he'd never died. Given that he was alive, his body's location known, and him being probably the most reliable and sympathetic Primarch that the Eldar could rely on to bolster the Imperium whilst they save the Eldar, Guilliman was a solid pick.
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
This cawl is the wrost thing to come outta 40k in a long time. Through the power of hand wavium he broke a metric ass ton of imperial laws and performed the same work that the 3rd legion went chaos over. Dude it's a saint Mary Sue.
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pm713 wrote: Want to cut down the text walls people?
Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.
This, to this day the lion is rheost practical and logical to bring back because it's literally a case of
"Hey look what I found in the basement while I was moving stuff around!"
Lion has the least amount of stipulation to be coming back. Also would have been better for the imperium in it's current states. The lion leads from the front guliman is more of a statesmen
Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make
firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia
secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time
and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.
overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.
john27 wrote: Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make
firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia
secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time
and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.
overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.
He has broken the most sacred edicts of the mechanicum, innovation, mucking with the machine gods designs (because that’s what they think the emperor is) and handling Xenos tech, he is at the very least a heretek and at worst a traitor to the mechanicus, then we add to that he managed to do something no other person in the imperium or chaos had done, improve upon the space marine template, had he been foreshadowed and hints dropped over the years it would not have been such an issue, but he wasn’t, he was shoe horned into the fluff to justify the creation of primaris marines and represents the biggest retcon in 40k fluff since the newcrons were dropped (also to mixed feeling).
What needs to happen is a series of novels where he has to try to survive assassination from fellow tech priests, flaws coming out from the primaris project and the ramifications of creating a “possible” A.I, the reason I call him a bit of a Mary Sue is he hasn’t suffered ANY of the ramifications of his law (not lore) breaking actions, somehow knows how to improve marines and created new tech and improved on other, which is tech heresy, he needs to be fleshed out... badly.
john27 wrote: Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make
firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia
secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time
and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.
overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.
You are missing the main point. What he did was modification of the emperors design, something that was outlawed during the HH and the reason the 3rd legion fell well part of the reason. He also managed to keep this secret for 10000 years, with out a single Inquisitor who can know if a nurglings farts a system away. He also had tech for grav vehicles which he was just sitting on for 10000 years. All of this could have been used to keep soldiers alive during that time but no instead they used hand wavium to allow it to just appear.
He is not a Mary Sue for what he was able to do, he is aary sue because it came outta thin air for no reason other then here is this random dude that had all this tech and did genetic modifications and changed the emperors design.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.
A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.
I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?
Apparently the "we've messed with the Emperor's design but it's all right" galaxy-wide acceptance is a result of the Emissaries Imperatus deciding to accompany all the primaris deployments. Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question, but once they did, the Adeptus Custodes seal-of-approval essentially puts Cawls work beyond reproach.
locarno24 wrote: Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.
That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.
john27 wrote: Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make
firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia
secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time
and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.
overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.
He has broken the most sacred edicts of the mechanicum, innovation, mucking with the machine gods designs (because that’s what they think the emperor is) and handling Xenos tech, he is at the very least a heretek and at worst a traitor to the mechanicus, then we add to that he managed to do something no other person in the imperium or chaos had done, improve upon the space marine template, had he been foreshadowed and hints dropped over the years it would not have been such an issue, but he wasn’t, he was shoe horned into the fluff to justify the creation of primaris marines and represents the biggest retcon in 40k fluff since the newcrons were dropped (also to mixed feeling).
What needs to happen is a series of novels where he has to try to survive assassination from fellow tech priests, flaws coming out from the primaris project and the ramifications of creating a “possible” A.I, the reason I call him a bit of a Mary Sue is he hasn’t suffered ANY of the ramifications of his law (not lore) breaking actions, somehow knows how to improve marines and created new tech and improved on other, which is tech heresy, he needs to be fleshed out... badly.
So basically he isn't any different to any Radical Inquisitor that hasn't died yet. They aren't Mary Sues and neither is Cawl.
To be honest the Adeptus Mechanicus innovate all the time... is just that they do it veeeery slowly and they pass a TON of tests (Tests that are more religious than cientific in nature) before giving the seal of aprobal.. What do you think are all of those Mechanicus priest doing? They are developing things all the time and looking for old knowledge to learn, adapt, and remade.
But those innovations normally are inferior to the heresy and previous era equipement.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Well, of course if a Primarch like Guilliman came back, one who is a noted leader and statesman, it's perfectly logical he'd be leader of the Imperium. That's not a bad thing.
The main thing that I think you're fixated on is the fact it was Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, who came back, not that they became leader of the Imperium (a role which has been filled by regular Space Marines, I might add, and which Guilliman has occupied before.
You say Ultramarines are the poster boys - they're the poster boys in that it's their colour scheme which is used for everything. Ward's fluff is behind us. But frankly, even if we were to change the colour schemes on the front of every box, and then make another Chapter the face of the brand (and let's face it, every brand has one - even Stormcast have a favoured Stormhost over the others - do you see people kicking up a fuss there?), I can guarantee there'd still be people complaining it was the Ultramarines.
Frankly, if the Ultramarines get any kind of recognition, even if it makes logical sense, people will complain because "it's the Ultramarines".
Whether they are in real space or not is irrelevant, Girlyman was brought in as an Ex Machina, all the Primarchs coming back are, their return doesn't have to be anticipated at all, plus Girlyman was brought out of his coma from nowhere, suddenly the eldar come and save him, palease.
Actually, no.
Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting. It's akin to Chekov's Gun - if the gun is shown, it will be fired. We are shown the positions and statuses of Lion and Guilliman. One of them would return. Hence, Chekov's Gun.
With all the others, especially ones who went into the Warp, it would literally be a case of "they came out of the Warp one day". There's no suspsense, no building tension, no stakes - they just pop out and they're there again.
Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems".
The reason why Guilliman was brought back was obvious from previous books and the motives of the Ynnari: they want to use humanity as a blocking force, with Guilliman bolstering a faltering Imperium. It's in character, and foreshadowed in a lot of recent Eldar material, especially Fracturing of Biel-Tan.
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pm713 wrote: Want to cut down the text walls people?
Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.
Guilliman was never dead. He was moments from it, but he'd never died. Given that he was alive, his body's location known, and him being probably the most reliable and sympathetic Primarch that the Eldar could rely on to bolster the Imperium whilst they save the Eldar, Guilliman was a solid pick.
"Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting" Utter nonsense.
"Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems". - the rebirth was heralded, don't be dishonest, Girlymans revival was not, that came utterly out of the blue.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.
A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.
I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?
I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.
john27 wrote: Ok, well I've got codex space marines here and I'm going to summarise what Belisarius actually did to make primaris
also I'm going to ignore wargear because that stuff is easy for a high ranking techpriest to make
firstly the belisarian furnace, basically an enhanced adrenaline organ, but a 1 shot wonder kind of thing, not impossible given ten thousand millennia
secondly the sinew coils, basically coils of a special metal that gives the marine enhanced strength, this one also would be possible for such a high ranking magos given the length of time
and thirdly, the big one, the Magnificat that makes a primaris overall bigger and makes standard marine systems better. This one would be impossible for cawl to make without mutation etc, however this is simpy a retro fitted primarch organ so it was actually the emperor who made it making any arguments against this one invalid.
overall the improvements all seem to be quite reasonable whan you look at it so I don't see what you guys arguing over.
He has broken the most sacred edicts of the mechanicum, innovation, mucking with the machine gods designs (because that’s what they think the emperor is) and handling Xenos tech, he is at the very least a heretek and at worst a traitor to the mechanicus, then we add to that he managed to do something no other person in the imperium or chaos had done, improve upon the space marine template, had he been foreshadowed and hints dropped over the years it would not have been such an issue, but he wasn’t, he was shoe horned into the fluff to justify the creation of primaris marines and represents the biggest retcon in 40k fluff since the newcrons were dropped (also to mixed feeling).
What needs to happen is a series of novels where he has to try to survive assassination from fellow tech priests, flaws coming out from the primaris project and the ramifications of creating a “possible” A.I, the reason I call him a bit of a Mary Sue is he hasn’t suffered ANY of the ramifications of his law (not lore) breaking actions, somehow knows how to improve marines and created new tech and improved on other, which is tech heresy, he needs to be fleshed out... badly.
So basically he isn't any different to any Radical Inquisitor that hasn't died yet. They aren't Mary Sues and neither is Cawl.
Get. Over. It.
Interesting concept, wrong, but interesting, please explain how they are the same thing?
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.
A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.
I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?
I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.
5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.
The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate
locarno24 wrote: Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.
That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.
it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.
A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.
I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?
I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.
5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.
The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate
locarno24 wrote: Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.
That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.
it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.
And their lore has been gak since then. Every other Chapter have flaws, have failed, are interesting. Any Primarch could have lead and made changes, they are Primarchs, they can do any job far better than any human or humans like the council of terra. I'd actually collect them in 30k, the horus heresy books has made them interesting. But in 40k they are still boring mary sue's, just look at calcars ridiculous accomplishments lol Girlyman was not the logical candidate, any of them could have come back, if they all came back at once and they debated who would best lead, then he'd be the logical candidate. l
Guilliman is in no way sympathetic to the Eldar. His job is literally to exterminate them. I'd be okay with the Eldar bolstering the Imperium the way they did if they'd had some kind of back up plan. For example including a psychic trap that would make him go traitor when his job was done.
I'm not saying Guilliman has to go traitor just that it would be much better to at least include an attempt to deal with him by the Eldar even if the only mention was the Emperor saying "There's a psychic trap in your brain. It's gone. Now go and fix things."
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.
A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.
I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?
I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.
5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.
The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate
locarno24 wrote: Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.
That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.
it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.
And their lore has been gak since then. Every other Chapter have flaws, have failed, are interesting. Any Primarch could have lead and made changes, they are Primarchs, they can do any job far better than any human or humans like the council of terra. I'd actually collect them in 30k, the horus heresy books has made them interesting. But in 40k they are still boring mary sue's, just look at calcars ridiculous accomplishments lol Girlyman was not the logical candidate, any of them could have come back, if they all came back at once and they debated who would best lead, then he'd be the logical candidate. l
Oh yeah, the Ultramarines are always totally successful and stuff and never suffer casualties.
Have you actually read any of their lore or are you regurgitating a bunch of crap you read on 1d4chan?
Delvarus Centurion wrote:"Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting" Utter nonsense.
It's only nonsense if you don't understand or adhere to storytelling principles.
The widely accepted convention in literature is that something should be anticipated before it's reveal. It works this way in music, in dance, in theatre - it's far from nonsense.
"Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems". - the rebirth was heralded, don't be dishonest, Girlymans revival was not, that came utterly out of the blue.
Untrue. Firstly, Guilliman's body is established. We know what and where it is as a narrative object (unlike any of the lost Primarchs). We are also shown that there is hope - even if it's meagre (the fact that he's still alive, and some people say he's healing). Then, a few books prior, we are shown that some characters, who have a reason to support Guilliman's return, have the means to do so.
This leads to an organic, natural and anticipated return, instead of a "he came out the Warp because we wanted him to come back", which is what would most likely have happened with someone like Russ.
I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.
Ward wrote about the Spiritual Liege 3 editions ago, and what was it now? Ten years ago?
Their current stuff, objectively isn't any worse that a Chapter like the Imperial Fists. Their main focus now is that fact that they're on the cover of SM kits (which they were before Ward), and they have Guilliman - which doesn't hold up in an argument if Guilliman should have been the one to come back.
Again, saying the Ultramarines haven't had any losses is extremely reductionist.
But okay, in your view, using current and relevant lore, what is it that the Ultramarines have become that you don't like?
pm713 wrote:Guilliman is in no way sympathetic to the Eldar. His job is literally to exterminate them. I'd be okay with the Eldar bolstering the Imperium the way they did if they'd had some kind of back up plan. For example including a psychic trap that would make him go traitor when his job was done.
I think you're missing something here. Guilliman's job isn't to exterminate the Eldar. It is to safeguard and protect humanity. As a byproduct of that, he may be required to exterminate the Eldar. However, his main priority was to protect his homeworld, his empire, and then the entire Imperium. He trusts the Eldar because they brought him to life, and are the best hope of him reaching the Emperor, to guide humanity. If he hadn't trusted and worked with the Eldar, he would probably have either been killed in stasis, or chained up in the Maelstrom.
The Eldar DO have a backup plan. It's called awakening Ynnead and the fact that the Imperium is massively weakened right now.
What's the basic task of the Primarchs and the standard attitude of the entire Imperium? Hate the mutant, the xenos and the heretic.
Mutants get a pass when they're useful enough e.g. Ogryns and Navigators. Eldar don't. So either Chaos will remain in its current state or it'll eventually get pushed back and then a much stronger Imperium will go back to shooting Xenos. Unless a third race comes in but there's not much evidence of that. Whose going to join team elf? Orks? Tau? Necrons?
Ynnead is an awful backup plan. Ynnead is just one of about three or four plans to kill Slaanesh. The Eldar will be in a better place but not one that stops the Imperium killing them. They'll just be happier as bolters are shot into their faces.
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Sure man, whatever you say. If he got up off the chair himself it would have been a mary sue move, like the original fluff suggested he might, as it was it was just stretched and forced through three books.
A mary sue is an idealized or seemingly perfect character. Guilliman coming back isnt a Mary Sue move, and as you stated he isnt a mary sue.
I am perfectly aware that mary sue =/ characters i dont like, and its quite clear you dont like Guilliman. Perhaps that is why you keep railing on about his so called Mary Sue move?
I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.
5th edition was 3 editions ago.... get over it.
The Ultramarines have ALWAYS been the posterboys for space marines (except when for one edition they used crimson fists, eaither way it was blue marines) this isn't some new Wardian thing, and Gulliman being whom he is, also isn't some new thing, Gulliman was brought back because GW needed to give the IoM a "leader hero" figure who could insisute some changes of the degree that they wanted to make to the setting, Gulliman was the logical canidate
locarno24 wrote: Precisely why the Custodes decided they had no problem with it is a seperate question.
That's answered in the Codex as well, one of the Custodians has a vision/hallucenation of the Emperor and ends the Custodes own debate by telling the others that the Emperor told him it would be fine. After some discussion about the vision they decided that, yes, the Primaris are fine.
it wasn't just one dude, NUMEROUS Custodes came forward and announced visions. it sounds like it was one of the clearest bits of the emperor's will forwarded. and given the Custdoes have little partiuclar TRUST of the Astartes I'm inclined to suspect that there's something here.
And their lore has been gak since then. Every other Chapter have flaws, have failed, are interesting. Any Primarch could have lead and made changes, they are Primarchs, they can do any job far better than any human or humans like the council of terra. I'd actually collect them in 30k, the horus heresy books has made them interesting. But in 40k they are still boring mary sue's, just look at calcars ridiculous accomplishments lol Girlyman was not the logical candidate, any of them could have come back, if they all came back at once and they debated who would best lead, then he'd be the logical candidate. l
Oh yeah, the Ultramarines are always totally successful and stuff and never suffer casualties.
Have you actually read any of their lore or are you regurgitating a bunch of crap you read on 1d4chan?
They haven't failed on massive counts, they have no weakness like most of the chapters do and not just mutations. Of course they are going to lose battles here and there.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:"Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting" Utter nonsense.
It's only nonsense if you don't understand or adhere to storytelling principles.
The widely accepted convention in literature is that something should be anticipated before it's reveal. It works this way in music, in dance, in theatre - it's far from nonsense.
"Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems". - the rebirth was heralded, don't be dishonest, Girlymans revival was not, that came utterly out of the blue.
Untrue. Firstly, Guilliman's body is established. We know what and where it is as a narrative object (unlike any of the lost Primarchs). We are also shown that there is hope - even if it's meagre (the fact that he's still alive, and some people say he's healing). Then, a few books prior, we are shown that some characters, who have a reason to support Guilliman's return, have the means to do so.
This leads to an organic, natural and anticipated return, instead of a "he came out the Warp because we wanted him to come back", which is what would most likely have happened with someone like Russ.
I actually like Girlyman and the Legion Ultramarines, I just hate what the Ultramarines have become, Mostly due to he who will not be named.
Ward wrote about the Spiritual Liege 3 editions ago, and what was it now? Ten years ago?
Their current stuff, objectively isn't any worse that a Chapter like the Imperial Fists. Their main focus now is that fact that they're on the cover of SM kits (which they were before Ward), and they have Guilliman - which doesn't hold up in an argument if Guilliman should have been the one to come back.
Again, saying the Ultramarines haven't had any losses is extremely reductionist.
But okay, in your view, using current and relevant lore, what is it that the Ultramarines have become that you don't like?
pm713 wrote:Guilliman is in no way sympathetic to the Eldar. His job is literally to exterminate them. I'd be okay with the Eldar bolstering the Imperium the way they did if they'd had some kind of back up plan. For example including a psychic trap that would make him go traitor when his job was done.
I think you're missing something here. Guilliman's job isn't to exterminate the Eldar. It is to safeguard and protect humanity. As a byproduct of that, he may be required to exterminate the Eldar. However, his main priority was to protect his homeworld, his empire, and then the entire Imperium. He trusts the Eldar because they brought him to life, and are the best hope of him reaching the Emperor, to guide humanity. If he hadn't trusted and worked with the Eldar, he would probably have either been killed in stasis, or chained up in the Maelstrom.
The Eldar DO have a backup plan. It's called awakening Ynnead and the fact that the Imperium is massively weakened right now.
Ex-Machina's have been successfully done, some jumped up writer, critic or worse professor deemed it bad writing. If done right it can be great writing, Homer has done it, Shakespeare has done it, but you read in some tired old textbook or took someones word that it was bad writing, its only bad if its done lazily like Girlyman. I never said they had no losses. Losing battles in war is to be expected, I mean failures in character in method etc. The only thing they failed in is a strict adherence to the codex.
One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.
Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.
Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.
Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.
Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.
Formosa wrote: One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.
Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.
Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.
Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.
Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.
Primarchs don't need any sleep at all, only once in a blue moon do they sleep. I wouldn't say he was scared by his awakening; however, he definitely hasn't taken it well.
pm713 wrote:What's the basic task of the Primarchs and the standard attitude of the entire Imperium? Hate the mutant, the xenos and the heretic.
Mutants get a pass when they're useful enough e.g. Ogryns and Navigators. Eldar don't. So either Chaos will remain in its current state or it'll eventually get pushed back and then a much stronger Imperium will go back to shooting Xenos. Unless a third race comes in but there's not much evidence of that. Whose going to join team elf? Orks? Tau? Necrons?
Incorrect. It's a tenet of the overriding philosophy of "humanity first at all costs".
Naturally, most non-human life is a threat, or potential threat to humanity. However, if the situation calls for it, alliance with other forces maybe be needed.
Take Pedro Kantor, Chapter Master of a second founding chapter, allying with Eldar in the aftermath of Rynn's World.
Take Marneus Calgar on Malbede, fighting alongside the Tau and allowing them to retreat from their orbital bombardment.
Take the War of the Beast, and Black Templars and Fists Exemplar allying with Iron Warriors against the Orks.
If the Imperium was so dogmatic as you say, then none of these would have happened.
Ynnead is an awful backup plan. Ynnead is just one of about three or four plans to kill Slaanesh. The Eldar will be in a better place but not one that stops the Imperium killing them. They'll just be happier as bolters are shot into their faces.
Slaanesh is the biggest threat to the Eldar. If they succeed in killing Slaanesh, and the Imperium still goes ahead and betrays them, their souls are actually safe for once.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:They haven't failed on massive counts, they have no weakness like most of the chapters do and not just mutations. Of course they are going to lose battles here and there.
Failure isn't the only mark of a significant narrative loss.
Ignoring defeats like Thessala, the Ultramarines had significant losses during the First Tyrannic War, as a result of their own flaw. The only reason they succeeded was largely in part to Calgar having to sacrifice something of great value (a narrative device well established) and then LEARNING from their failures.
The Ultramarine trait doesn't have to be this deep dark secret, or genetic mutation - tactical inflexibility and adherance to combat doctrine is a very real flaw. Hell, if we're only working on genetic flaws and deep dark secrets, what are the Imperial Fist's weaknesses? Their stubbornness? How is that any different to the Ultramarines' sticking to the Codex like glue?
Hell, the Ultramarines are narratively one of the most resolved Chapters out there, because their story has an actual arc. First, they have the Codex, and rely heavily on it. That's their flaw. Then, they are challenged, directly related to that flaw. Here, it's the new threat of the Tyranids, and of characters like Ventris, who challenge the flaw of the Chapter. However, after overcoming it, the Chapter changes and improves on that flaw.
It's a similar structure to Greek theatre and storytelling - and that's pretty solid.
Ex-Machina's have been successfully done, some jumped up writer, critic or worse professor deemed it bad writing. If done right it can be great writing, Homer has done it, Shakespeare has done it, but you read in some tired old textbook or took someones word that it was bad writing, its only bad if its done lazily like Girlyman. I never said they had no losses. Losing battles in war is to be expected, I mean failures in character in method etc. The only thing they failed in is a strict adherence to the codex.
Ex-Machinas can be successfully done, but they are done in such a way that is established in the setting, and often is anticipated as a possibility.
However, I do disagree on Shakespeare doing ex-machinas. In my experience of reading him, I've not seen one. Can you give examples of an unanticipated ex-machina from him?
Guilliman wasn't done lazily. It was barely an ex-machina. It was established in the setting, anticipated, and resolved like any other plot point.
Yes, they fail in their adherence to the Codex. Why are you pretending like that isn't a flaw of the Chapter? Does every Chapter need some crippling weakness? If so, that gets very dull. Giving the Ultramarines a subtle, believable and realistic weakness is, in my opinion, better than any gene-seed curse or evil past.
The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.
Naturally most alien life isn't a threat to humanity. They just become a threat because a certain man on a golden seat was crazy.
All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?
pm713 wrote:What's the basic task of the Primarchs and the standard attitude of the entire Imperium? Hate the mutant, the xenos and the heretic.
Mutants get a pass when they're useful enough e.g. Ogryns and Navigators. Eldar don't. So either Chaos will remain in its current state or it'll eventually get pushed back and then a much stronger Imperium will go back to shooting Xenos. Unless a third race comes in but there's not much evidence of that. Whose going to join team elf? Orks? Tau? Necrons?
Incorrect. It's a tenet of the overriding philosophy of "humanity first at all costs".
Naturally, most non-human life is a threat, or potential threat to humanity. However, if the situation calls for it, alliance with other forces maybe be needed.
Take Pedro Kantor, Chapter Master of a second founding chapter, allying with Eldar in the aftermath of Rynn's World.
Take Marneus Calgar on Malbede, fighting alongside the Tau and allowing them to retreat from their orbital bombardment.
Take the War of the Beast, and Black Templars and Fists Exemplar allying with Iron Warriors against the Orks.
If the Imperium was so dogmatic as you say, then none of these would have happened.
Ynnead is an awful backup plan. Ynnead is just one of about three or four plans to kill Slaanesh. The Eldar will be in a better place but not one that stops the Imperium killing them. They'll just be happier as bolters are shot into their faces.
Slaanesh is the biggest threat to the Eldar. If they succeed in killing Slaanesh, and the Imperium still goes ahead and betrays them, their souls are actually safe for once.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:They haven't failed on massive counts, they have no weakness like most of the chapters do and not just mutations. Of course they are going to lose battles here and there.
Failure isn't the only mark of a significant narrative loss.
Ignoring defeats like Thessala, the Ultramarines had significant losses during the First Tyrannic War, as a result of their own flaw. The only reason they succeeded was largely in part to Calgar having to sacrifice something of great value (a narrative device well established) and then LEARNING from their failures.
The Ultramarine trait doesn't have to be this deep dark secret, or genetic mutation - tactical inflexibility and adherance to combat doctrine is a very real flaw. Hell, if we're only working on genetic flaws and deep dark secrets, what are the Imperial Fist's weaknesses? Their stubbornness? How is that any different to the Ultramarines' sticking to the Codex like glue?
Hell, the Ultramarines are narratively one of the most resolved Chapters out there, because their story has an actual arc. First, they have the Codex, and rely heavily on it. That's their flaw. Then, they are challenged, directly related to that flaw. Here, it's the new threat of the Tyranids, and of characters like Ventris, who challenge the flaw of the Chapter. However, after overcoming it, the Chapter changes and improves on that flaw.
It's a similar structure to Greek theatre and storytelling - and that's pretty solid.
Ex-Machina's have been successfully done, some jumped up writer, critic or worse professor deemed it bad writing. If done right it can be great writing, Homer has done it, Shakespeare has done it, but you read in some tired old textbook or took someones word that it was bad writing, its only bad if its done lazily like Girlyman. I never said they had no losses. Losing battles in war is to be expected, I mean failures in character in method etc. The only thing they failed in is a strict adherence to the codex.
Ex-Machinas can be successfully done, but they are done in such a way that is established in the setting, and often is anticipated as a possibility.
However, I do disagree on Shakespeare doing ex-machinas. In my experience of reading him, I've not seen one. Can you give examples of an unanticipated ex-machina from him?
Guilliman wasn't done lazily. It was barely an ex-machina. It was established in the setting, anticipated, and resolved like any other plot point.
Yes, they fail in their adherence to the Codex. Why are you pretending like that isn't a flaw of the Chapter? Does every Chapter need some crippling weakness? If so, that gets very dull. Giving the Ultramarines a subtle, believable and realistic weakness is, in my opinion, better than any gene-seed curse or evil past.
He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.
Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.
Formosa wrote: One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.
Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.
Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.
Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.
Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.
Primarchs don't need any sleep at all, only once in a blue moon do they sleep. I wouldn't say he was scared by his awakening; however, he definitely hasn't taken it well.
Primarchs absolutely need sleep, its one of the reasons that Angron suffers so badly from psychosis, he could NEVER sleep due to the nails not letting him, and I meant scared as in a scar on his psyche.
pm713 wrote:The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.
Slaanesh is the only one who eats them after death, unless I'm mistaken. By and large, the Eldar will only have their souls be saved when Slaanesh is killed. Even now, they're only being kept in a psuedo-purgatory.
All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?
The Chaos threat reduced? The Daemon Primarchs are more active than ever, half the galaxy got split in half, and they broke through the Eye of Terror. How is Chaos REDUCED from what it was?
Those examples are still examples - if the Imperium was as intolerant as you say, that wouldn't have happened. Plus, the Eldar/Crimson Fist one wasn't a particularly large battle.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.
The majority of these are comedies, and in the case of Cymbeline, arguably a parody of Deus-Ex-Machinas.
Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.
It was still established and prepared prior to the action.
Formosa wrote: One of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of the ultramarines is its strict adherence, almost worship of the codex, just look what happened to urial ventris.
Due to this strictness they have had issues working alongside several chapters who do not follow the codex as closely.
Also the strict following had led to major issues in battles where the enemy has been able to exploit the rigidity of the ultramarines.
Lastly certain things that could and would have been added to the codex have been blocked by several chapters, notably the iron hands, after it was discovered certain iron warrior vehicles had a weakness due to hardwiring the crew into the vehicle, a process that the iron hands themselves practice.
Like Cawl the ultramarines are a bit Mary Sue, but not on the scale some have claimed, guiliman also has some pretty large character flaws in 40k, being a man out of time, not being able to sleep properly if at all, psychologically scared by his awaking, lost his faith in the emperor the list goes on.
Primarchs don't need any sleep at all, only once in a blue moon do they sleep. I wouldn't say he was scared by his awakening; however, he definitely hasn't taken it well.
Primarchs absolutely need sleep, its one of the reasons that Angron suffers so badly from psychosis, he could NEVER sleep due to the nails not letting him, and I meant scared as in a scar on his psyche.
Not with the new lore they don't. Wolfsbane details how and why the Primarchs don't need sleep, whoever they can 'choose' to sleep, Russ said he never slept until one day he unententionally slept and dreamt of fighting Morakai and when he woke up Horus told him that he liked the emperor spear, meaning that he would die by that spear one day. Angron isn't psychotic he understood what was real and what wasn't, he was a psychopath.
pm713 wrote:The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.
Slaanesh is the only one who eats them after death, unless I'm mistaken. By and large, the Eldar will only have their souls be saved when Slaanesh is killed. Even now, they're only being kept in a psuedo-purgatory.
All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?
The Chaos threat reduced? The Daemon Primarchs are more active than ever, half the galaxy got split in half, and they broke through the Eye of Terror. How is Chaos REDUCED from what it was?
Those examples are still examples - if the Imperium was as intolerant as you say, that wouldn't have happened. Plus, the Eldar/Crimson Fist one wasn't a particularly large battle.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.
The majority of these are comedies, and in the case of Cymbeline, arguably a parody of Deus-Ex-Machinas.
Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.
It was still established and prepared prior to the action.
So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...
Delvarus Centurion wrote: So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...
40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.
Can you quote where the lore was establish?
Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.
Not with the new lore they don't. Wolfsbane details how and why the Primarchs don't need sleep, whoever they can 'choose' to sleep, Russ said he never slept until one day he unententionally slept and dreamt of fighting Morakai and when he woke up Horus told him that he liked the emperor spear, meaning that he would die by that spear one day. Angron isn't psychotic he understood what was real and what wasn't, he was a psychopath.
Several books show they need sleep, one shows that Russ did not, so im going with the several on that one.
Also Psychosis and Psychotic are very different things, one can have psychosis and not be psychotic, but one cannot be psychotic without a psychosis, Angron was psychotic because he had a psychosis, he also had bi polar psychosis, and several other psychosis.
Psychosis
"a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality."
Which Angron clearly sufferers from amongst other things.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...
40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.
Can you quote where the lore was establish?
Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.
These are all before Gathering Storm 3.
Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.
Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.
Not with the new lore they don't. Wolfsbane details how and why the Primarchs don't need sleep, whoever they can 'choose' to sleep, Russ said he never slept until one day he unententionally slept and dreamt of fighting Morakai and when he woke up Horus told him that he liked the emperor spear, meaning that he would die by that spear one day. Angron isn't psychotic he understood what was real and what wasn't, he was a psychopath.
Several books show they need sleep, one shows that Russ did not, so im going with the several on that one.
Also Psychosis and Psychotic are very different things, one can have psychosis and not be psychotic, but one cannot be psychotic without a psychosis, Angron was psychotic because he had a psychosis, he also had bi polar psychosis, and several other psychosis.
Psychosis
"a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality."
Which Angron clearly sufferers from amongst other things.
New lore always takes priority, there were tonnes of lore saying that the Lion and Russ were equally matched until you stated the 'one' new book in, which that wasn't the case.
They are not different things, I have psychosis and I am psychotic, its a common misnomer. He didn't have any problems with his grasp on reality, he was a psychopath though, which is what I thought you meant.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...
40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.
Can you quote where the lore was establish?
Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.
These are all before Gathering Storm 3.
Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.
I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.
Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.
Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.
I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.
Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.
How does that change the fact that they establish the story?
pm713 wrote:The thing about their souls being safe is that it doesn't matter. Practically speaking they're safe when they die now. Unless they kill all Chaos/hostile warp entities or somehow regain their resurrection power then the soul being safe doesn't matter if they're dead.
Slaanesh is the only one who eats them after death, unless I'm mistaken. By and large, the Eldar will only have their souls be saved when Slaanesh is killed. Even now, they're only being kept in a psuedo-purgatory.
All those examples seem to take place in the middle of a sizable battle which is why the enemies are getting a pass. That's why the Imperium is fighting Chaos not the Eldar now. With the Chaos threat reduced (which is borderline certain) what stops the Eldar getting attacked like before but by a much more organised enemy?
The Chaos threat reduced? The Daemon Primarchs are more active than ever, half the galaxy got split in half, and they broke through the Eye of Terror. How is Chaos REDUCED from what it was?
Those examples are still examples - if the Imperium was as intolerant as you say, that wouldn't have happened. Plus, the Eldar/Crimson Fist one wasn't a particularly large battle.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:He did it numerous times: in 'As you like it' for one, 'the prince of tyre', 'winters tale', 'Cymbelina'. All ex-machina's are unanticipated.
The majority of these are comedies, and in the case of Cymbeline, arguably a parody of Deus-Ex-Machinas.
Yeah it was resolved in a few months, there was no previous lore on the Eldar waking him up, none that I know of anyways.
It was still established and prepared prior to the action.
Slaanesh captures and tortures them but I doubt they'll just go back to reincarnating with just Slaanesh gone. Besides even if they have a nice afterlife in the Warp it doesn't stop the Imperium killing them all.
You've missed my point. Right now Chaos is definitely stronger which is why Guilliman got brought back. But in the future they're going to get weaker again and unless they take Guilliman with them the Eldar are going to be in a worse position.
The Crimson Fist one was after most of the Chapter died though IIRC. The Imperium is that intolerant that's why they spend time exterminating Craftworlds, that's why they tried exterminating the Tau before they even had technology worth mentioning and that's why they spent so much time killing any humans who allied with Xenos. Xenos sometimes getting a pass is the exception to the norm.
pm713 wrote: Slaanesh captures and tortures them but I doubt they'll just go back to reincarnating with just Slaanesh gone. Besides even if they have a nice afterlife in the Warp it doesn't stop the Imperium killing them all.
It's still preferable to eternal torture at the hands of Slaanesh. If their afterlife is that good (which I believe it is), what's the issue with their mortal selves dying?
You've missed my point. Right now Chaos is definitely stronger which is why Guilliman got brought back. But in the future they're going to get weaker again and unless they take Guilliman with them the Eldar are going to be in a worse position.
Chaos will only get weaker if the Imperium or some other force is able to fight back. Which the Eldar are facilitating.
When Chaos gets weaker, this will presumably when the Eldar have ressurrected Ynnead, and really at that point, whatever the Imperium do is inconsequential.
The Crimson Fist one was after most of the Chapter died though IIRC. The Imperium is that intolerant that's why they spend time exterminating Craftworlds, that's why they tried exterminating the Tau before they even had technology worth mentioning and that's why they spent so much time killing any humans who allied with Xenos. Xenos sometimes getting a pass is the exception to the norm.
The Imperium is hostile by default, yes, to fulfil their objective of humanity first. And absolutely, the exception is that they get a pass.
This is that exception, just on a larger scale. It's not "all Eldar" allying with Guilliman, it's just the Ynnari. They just happen to be a significantly large portion of the the Eldar.
They're still extinct and the other demons and such aren't going to just let them wander they're going to kill them as demons do.
That's true the Imperium will make Chaos weaker but having Ynnead around isn't a magic fix all for the Imperium. Plus it seems odd to me that the Eldar who aren't Ynnari didn't at least try creating a backup plan. There should be at least three factions in the Craftworld society with different aims not just Ynnari and everyone letting them do whatever.
Most people in the Imperium don't have a clue about that kind of thing. The standard view is that Eldar is Eldar. I don't really see all Eldar being seen as allies for as long as they have been.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...
40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.
Can you quote where the lore was establish?
Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.
These are all before Gathering Storm 3.
Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.
I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.
Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.
Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.
I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.
Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.
How does that change the fact that they establish the story?
I just hate Cawl because he broke numouse imperial edicts, got away with it scott free, and horded highly valuable tech that could have been used in the front line ages ago, IE just pulling grav tanks outta his ass, a piece of tech that lore wise has been lost since the HH to the point where only 1 space marine still had a grav vehicle in the entire setting, ravenwing, and cawl just goes lol nope had it all along. Then he also alters the emperors space marines and gets not negative repercussions because lol a primarch said it was ok, despite thata not really having any weight because the Big E already said no. And then, as if this could not get any better, some how, the inquisition, and organization who can smell a nuglings fat a system away, some how had no idea this random guy had been doing all of this for 10000 years, an orginization whos literal job is to keep tabs on everyone, some how missed the biggest freaking jump in technological and genetic modification in the last 10000 years.
Thats why i dont like Cawl because he is saint marry sue.
pm713 wrote: Did we forget Land Speeders are a thing? I thought grav vehicles stopped because the Imperium couldn't sustain the resource demand they had.
No it was because they literally lost the tech to make them, they forgot how they worked the only reason we still had land speeders is because they never lost the STC to make them. Cawl on the other hand invented, which again is a no no, the repulser and some how just knew for the last 10000 years how grav tech worked.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...
40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.
Can you quote where the lore was establish?
Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.
These are all before Gathering Storm 3.
Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.
I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.
Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.
Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.
I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.
Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.
How does that change the fact that they establish the story?
I just hate Cawl because he broke numouse imperial edicts, got away with it scott free, and horded highly valuable tech that could have been used in the front line ages ago, IE just pulling grav tanks outta his ass, a piece of tech that lore wise has been lost since the HH to the point where only 1 space marine still had a grav vehicle in the entire setting, ravenwing, and cawl just goes lol nope had it all along. Then he also alters the emperors space marines and gets not negative repercussions because lol a primarch said it was ok, despite thata not really having any weight because the Big E already said no. And then, as if this could not get any better, some how, the inquisition, and organization who can smell a nuglings fat a system away, some how had no idea this random guy had been doing all of this for 10000 years, an orginization whos literal job is to keep tabs on everyone, some how missed the biggest freaking jump in technological and genetic modification in the last 10000 years.
Thats why i dont like Cawl because he is saint marry sue.
And where exactly did the Big E say "no" to Primaris Marines? You have both the Custodes and a Primarch saying, "they're ok" surely the custodes and a primarch know the emperor's wishes better then anyone else doncha think?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: So what if they are comedies, the winters tale is a comedy and a drama. that is completely irrelevant, even a parody of an ex-machina is still an ex-machina...
40k isn't a comedy. Comedies largely get away with, as a storytelling device, a lot more narrative tropes and "rules" that other styles adhere to.
Can you quote where the lore was establish?
Ynnead coming back was established in Death Masque, Gathering Storm 1 establishes Cawl having an item which can turn the tide of the war (so foreshadowing), and Gathering Storm 2 sets up the Ynnari being able to revitalise people, and even reanimate the dead.
These are all before Gathering Storm 3.
Its not relevant, you are just looking for excuses so you don't have to concede that you are wrong, otherwise you would have given caveats, saying find me an example that isn't a comedy and if comidies get away with it, why would you say 'all' ex-machina's are poor writing if you are saying its okay for comedies to employ them and you already know you are wrong because I gave you an example of an ex-machina in drama, homer's odysseyand the Iliad.
I didn't say they were poor writing. I said that they were unconventional in writing, especially modern, because it is usually accepted that an action is prepared, suspended (tension) then resolved, which a Deus-Ex-Machina skips.
Comedies are often unconventional. The Odyssey and Illiad are literally FEATURING gods. Hell, they're Greek too - the archetypical Deus-Ex-Machina.
Again, this is all really quite unrelated, considering that Guilliman coming back is not a Deus-Ex-Machina. It was established as being possible. The other Primarchs, barring the Lion, would have been coming back via a Deus-Ex-Machina - a completely unforseen event.
I would be willing to suggest this is why people dislike Cawl - because he was a newcomer, who made a big impact on the current setting with little in the way of anticipation.
Death masque, gathering storm were all done in the space of months and were all apart of the same story arc.
How does that change the fact that they establish the story?
I just hate Cawl because he broke numouse imperial edicts, got away with it scott free, and horded highly valuable tech that could have been used in the front line ages ago, IE just pulling grav tanks outta his ass, a piece of tech that lore wise has been lost since the HH to the point where only 1 space marine still had a grav vehicle in the entire setting, ravenwing, and cawl just goes lol nope had it all along. Then he also alters the emperors space marines and gets not negative repercussions because lol a primarch said it was ok, despite thata not really having any weight because the Big E already said no. And then, as if this could not get any better, some how, the inquisition, and organization who can smell a nuglings fat a system away, some how had no idea this random guy had been doing all of this for 10000 years, an orginization whos literal job is to keep tabs on everyone, some how missed the biggest freaking jump in technological and genetic modification in the last 10000 years.
Thats why i dont like Cawl because he is saint marry sue.
Except Cawl isn't just some random guy. He is just a new character. Big difference.
So no Cawl isn't some Mary Sue. Get over your hate of Repulsors and Primaris Marines. It's pathetic at this point.
Mary Sue or not, the entire turn of events in the Gathering Storm and beyond have been low quality plot direction that breaks the status quo quite a bit in a setting where the entire IoM is brutally hostile to anything outside the norm. The work arounds for a lot of this are somewhat hand wavey logic that seems to be made to justify the end goal and brush past all the friction with the established lore. In short its plot written to get to the final result with all the middle bits being full of leaps in logic and semi plot holes.
Vankraken wrote: Mary Sue or not, the entire turn of events in the Gathering Storm and beyond have been low quality plot direction that breaks the status quo quite a bit in a setting where the entire IoM is brutally hostile to anything outside the norm. The work arounds for a lot of this are somewhat hand wavey logic that seems to be made to justify the end goal and brush past all the friction with the established lore. In short its plot written to get to the final result with all the middle bits being full of leaps in logic and semi plot holes.
See I can accept someone thinking it's low quality. I personally think it's all meh overall, but Cawl is one of the best things to happen because he's, when you think about for more than a second, SCARY.
He's precisely and literally in the truest sense a random dude who just showed up and did big things. He's only a somebody after the fact. Somebody I like to call Mary Sue. Learn to literature.
ProwlerPC wrote: He's precisely and literally in the truest sense a random dude who just showed up and did big things. He's only a somebody after the fact. Somebody I like to call Mary Sue. Learn to literature.
All new characters in a series are just random dudes that show up and can potentially big things. It happens all the time in fiction.
And you're telling me to learn to literature? Please do give the definition of a Mary Sue, which I already disproved for Cawl earlier in the thread.
ProwlerPC wrote: I was unconvinced. Too much handwavium for heresy on such a monumental scale. The Custodes example is the authors handwave in action.
But I was referring more to your argument that Carl wasn't a random dude showing up, that he was a somebody..
All new characters that have that kinda power newly introduced are going to be like that. The difference with Cawl is that some people have such a hateboner for Primaris Marines they say "Mary Sue" to him and the Primaris when they don't even know the definition of a Mary Sue. Hate the concept of Primaris Marines all you want, but learn your terms.
I understand that the term Mary Sue has evolved to become an author's wish fulfillment through a self insert. I suppose I'm old and still use it for a character of unprecedented ability and walks through all opposition with no drawbacks.
ProwlerPC wrote: I understand that the term Mary Sue has evolved to become an author's wish fulfillment through a self insert. I suppose I'm old and still use it for a character of unprecedented ability and walks through all opposition with no drawbacks.
That's not even the old definition. The old definition has to do with the character seemingly being perfect, and Cawl is certainly not that. That's why he isn't promoted to Fabricator General. He HAS that much opposition and hatred from other AdMech members.
That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.
Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.
The list can go on.
Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.
“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”
Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.
Formosa wrote: Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.
The list can go on.
Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.
“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”
Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.
A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.
And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ProwlerPC wrote: That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.
He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.
Formosa wrote: Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.
The list can go on.
Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.
“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”
Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.
A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.
And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ProwlerPC wrote: That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.
He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.
You claim others can do it... who? who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person??
Formosa wrote: Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.
The list can go on.
Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.
“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”
Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.
A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.
And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ProwlerPC wrote: That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.
He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.
You claim others can do it... who? who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person??
Cawl is a man with a mandate from a Primarch with, presumably access tools. there are a few cases of innovation in 40k. and almost all are simply refining ideas that already exist, which is basicly all the primaris tech is. as for who can take the space marine geneseed and improve on it?
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thrar_Hraldir
he nearly solved the issues with the Canis Helix himself. and had far less time and FAR less resources. Had Magnus the Red not slain him he would have solved it.
Cawl is a man with a mandate from a Primarch with, presumably access tools. there are a few cases of innovation in 40k. and almost all are simply refining ideas that already exist, which is basicly all the primaris tech is. as for who can take the space marine geneseed and improve on it?
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Thrar_Hraldir
he nearly solved the issues with the Canis Helix himself. and had far less time and FAR less resources. Had Magnus the Red not slain him he would have solved it.
Cawl is a Heretek who has the mandate of a creature that may or may not be a primarch raised by dark magics and xenos heresy, access to heretical texts and tools, commits blasphemy against the omnisiah by thinking his designs above the machine god, has the audacity to think The machine gods designs is not already perfect and needs refining.
Thats the thought process of mechanicum adepts, they are ultra conservative to the point that fixing a cogitator can get you turned into a servitor, enhancing a telescopic sight can get you killed for tech heresy, Cawl gets to break the conventions of the setting in too large a manner with zero repercussions, he has knowledge of things that he should not have due to having never been in the fluff, I.E had he been mentioned in the older series of books "so the Big E did work on the primarch project with his top scientists and a young Bill Cawl" then it wouldnt be so bad, but they havent, instead we have the primarch project destroyed (deliverence lost) the primarch goo captured (same book) the facility destroyed with its Info lost (same book), so with Zero info on how to do it, Cawl improves space marines... its too big a gap, too big a plot hole, it really needs an explanation.
"Hraldir came closer than any other since the Emperor Himself at understanding the nature of the Canis Helix. "
The emperor and Cawl..... since cawl "cured" all the gene seed issues right? riiiiggghht? hahaha, joking aside, he came closer than any other, so he got to 98% to a cure rather than 99%, its too open ended to mean anything, its a big leap of logic to assume he would have cured the space wolves, but for arguments sake I will give you this one so long as you can answer the rest.
" who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person?? "
People can say waht you want, but cawl is an absolute mary sue.
The best example of this is when he just randomly goes lol i haad this suit i was working on for 10000 years to bring back guliman, who for all lore perspective was stuck in stasis but now he is fine.
So hell, not only is HE a mary sue, but he is such a amary sue that his mary sueness is bleeding over into other characters to turn into mary sues.
Formosa wrote: Corswain: new character, character flaws
Delvarus: new character, major character flaws
O shovah: when new, had character flaws, to the tau at least.
The list can go on.
Cawl: turns up out of nowhere, has massive impact on setting, breaks established rules in setting, escapes repercussions (so far) of said actions in setting, has no character flaws at all at the moment (because not fleshed out in a novel of his own), does things in the setting no other person can do cos... reasons.
“A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.”
Like it or lump it, the character fufills the criteria to be considered a Mary Sue.
A recap of events that happened with Roboute's awakening is not gonna give characterization to anyone. Nobody got it outside Roboute kinda. He has been discussed elsewhere though and does not fit the definition, as much as you'd like to think so.
And once again he hasn't done anything that anyone else is incapable of doing. You have yet to show this still. Plus I'm pretty sure any perfect character like you claim would've stopped Abigail from causing the galaxy to split in half. Maybe Abigail is the REAL Mary Sue!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ProwlerPC wrote: That's a Chekhov''s Gun. I'm glad they put in some foreshadowing for him. I expect him to become the Fabricator General and I pray they make a good story out of it. I'll kindly re-evaluate my criticism if they detail his oppositions the sacrifices and the long lasting resulting effect it has on him as he attains his goal (aka character development ). If it's done lazily with a handwave and it's same Cawl then I'll find his lore getting worse.
He's gone off the deep end to the point he is implied to have created an AI. He IS nuts, like it or not.
You claim others can do it... who? who is capable of improving space marines, who is capable and ALLOWED to improve the machine gods holy designs, who is capable of creating a "possible" A.I and getting away with it, who is capable and ALLOWED to create new designs... who is this person??
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.
And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.
Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.
The best example of this is when he just randomly goes lol i haad this suit i was working on for 10000 years to bring back guliman, who for all lore perspective was stuck in stasis but now he is fine.
So hell, not only is HE a mary sue, but he is such a amary sue that his mary sueness is bleeding over into other characters to turn into mary sues.
He wasn't working on the suit for 10000 years. He had it basically ready but then he kinda went into stasis with no safe way to actually do anything about it. It wasn't the suit bringing him back, that was the Eldar. Did you read any of that fluff at all?
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.
And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.
Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.
Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.
21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.
"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"
Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.
And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.
Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.
Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.
21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.
"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"
Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.
1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.
There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.
2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.
So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.
3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.
And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.
Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.
Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.
21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.
"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"
Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.
1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.
There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.
2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.
So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.
3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.
1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.
2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?
3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.
And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.
Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.
Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.
21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.
"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"
Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.
1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.
There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.
2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.
So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.
3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.
1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.
2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?
3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).
1. It was still improved upon, AND by people who aren't at the level of Primarchs. Simple as that. You can't deny that part, nor can you deny it was the outside circumstances that led to any failure with them.
2. It was a success, just not one that leads to clean looking Marines. They were strictly successes in terms of performance though. Did any of the Cursed Founding suck all the sudden for performance because of the mucking about with their Geneseed?
3. Clearly things get tweaked. Otherwise the 21st founding wouldn't have even happened, right?
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.
And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.
Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.
Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.
21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.
"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"
Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.
1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.
There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.
2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.
So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.
3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.
1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.
2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?
3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).
1. It was still improved upon, AND by people who aren't at the level of Primarchs. Simple as that. You can't deny that part, nor can you deny it was the outside circumstances that led to any failure with them.
2. It was a success, just not one that leads to clean looking Marines. They were strictly successes in terms of performance though. Did any of the Cursed Founding suck all the sudden for performance because of the mucking about with their Geneseed?
3. Clearly things get tweaked. Otherwise the 21st founding wouldn't have even happened, right?
1: your still avoiding the point, how can it be ok for them to hand wave Cawl to have access to knowledge that does not exist in any form, the Enhanced marine project used the EMPERORS knowledge directly put into Coraxs mind, Cawl seemingly has pulled it out of his arse, so no, its not even remotely the same circumstances.
2: We will have to agree to disagree on this, from the point of view of the imperium its not a success, hence never trying it again, mucking with gene seed and producing mutants is heresy of the highest order, something chapters have been excomunicated for.
3: on a micro level, sure things may get tweaked, but not a macro level, a few laws here and there on a system or subsector level, but the imperium at large, nope, never, the core laws and ideals never change, they dont care how you worship the emperor for example, as long as you worship the emperor, those that dont are heretics and killed, enslaved, turned into servitors or sent to penal legions, change the status quo too much, like worshiping the emperor with proscribed rituals like blood sacrifice and your done.....
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.
And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.
Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.
Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.
21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.
"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"
Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.
1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.
There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.
2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.
So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.
3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.
1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.
2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?
3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).
1. It was still improved upon, AND by people who aren't at the level of Primarchs. Simple as that. You can't deny that part, nor can you deny it was the outside circumstances that led to any failure with them.
2. It was a success, just not one that leads to clean looking Marines. They were strictly successes in terms of performance though. Did any of the Cursed Founding suck all the sudden for performance because of the mucking about with their Geneseed?
3. Clearly things get tweaked. Otherwise the 21st founding wouldn't have even happened, right?
1: your still avoiding the point, how can it be ok for them to hand wave Cawl to have access to knowledge that does not exist in any form, the Enhanced marine project used the EMPERORS knowledge directly put into Coraxs mind, Cawl seemingly has pulled it out of his arse, so no, its not even remotely the same circumstances.
2: We will have to agree to disagree on this, from the point of view of the imperium its not a success, hence never trying it again, mucking with gene seed and producing mutants is heresy of the highest order, something chapters have been excomunicated for.
3: on a micro level, sure things may get tweaked, but not a macro level, a few laws here and there on a system or subsector level, but the imperium at large, nope, never, the core laws and ideals never change, they dont care how you worship the emperor for example, as long as you worship the emperor, those that dont are heretics and killed, enslaved, turned into servitors or sent to penal legions, change the status quo too much, like worshiping the emperor with proscribed rituals like blood sacrifice and your done.....
The Ad Mech is much worse than this.
1. Before Roboute went into stasis, he gave Cawl the Portum, which basically has the genetic info for Primarchs. So if we can muck about as much as we already can, Cawl can do something in the more peaceful situation he's in along with the resources he has. It isn't difficult to grasp what happened here. You're just in denial for whatever reason.
2. You didn't answer the question I tried to present. I want it answered. The question is, for all intents and purposes: did any of these Chapters have any performance issues with their genetic manipulation? There is nothing to "agree to disagree" on here.
3. Macro happened all the time in history. Difference here is the scale of change needed.
weather it was tried again or not is irrelevant, the 21st founding is direct evidance that the highlords of Terra have the power to order geneseed tampered with, and that there are individuals in the admech whom where willing to try.
you claim that Cawl lacked any of that knowledge, except there is evidance that Cawl likewise had knowledge of Primarch genetics, albit incomplete. where he got that data from? who knows. rather then purely dismiss it, perhaps we should simply discuss what GW needs to tell us about the character
1. Before Roboute went into stasis, he gave Cawl the Portum, which basically has the genetic info for Primarchs. So if we can muck about as much as we already can, Cawl can do something in the more peaceful situation he's in along with the resources he has. It isn't difficult to grasp what happened here. You're just in denial for whatever reason.
2. You didn't answer the question I tried to present. I want it answered. The question is, for all intents and purposes: did any of these Chapters have any performance issues with their genetic manipulation? There is nothing to "agree to disagree" on here.
3. Macro happened all the time in history. Difference here is the scale of change needed.
1: so where did Guilliman get the destroyed info from then? did the alpha legion give it to him? there was only one that I am aware of in deliverence lost and that was stolen, any others were destroyed when the facility housing them was destroyed. So again, did guilliman pull it out of his arse? do you not see the massive plot hole here, this is handwavium at its best.
2: "2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how? "
"from the point of view of the imperium its not a success, hence never trying it again, mucking with gene seed and producing mutants is heresy of the highest order, something chapters have been excomunicated for."
Yes I did, Twice in fact, they failed to get the result they were trying to get, 10% failure, 99% failure, its still a failure in the eyes of the imperium, they tried to "fix" the marine chapters and it didnt work, they produced horrible mutants.
But to just hammer the nail in that in this case you are wrong.
"Unfortunately, the Adeptus Mechanicus' Genetors proved far less skilled in the genetic sciences than the Emperor of Mankind, and their efforts resulted in the development of seriously flawed gene-seed that was used to craft the organ implants for the new Chapters. The Founding itself ended when one of its projects, already corrupted by Chaos, sent a signal through the Warp and alerted Fabius Bile, a notorious Apothecary of the Emperor's Children Traitor Legion, who served Chaos Undivided by seeking out new recruits for the Chaos Space Marines. Bile had been engaged in his own quest to improve upon the Emperor's work since the Horus Heresy and he found the "improved" Space Marines of the 21st Founding to be creations after his own black heart.
Matters pertaining to the exact nature of the 21st Founding of Space Marine Chapters carried out on the cusp of the 36th Millennium, have long since become shrouded in myth. The various dark ends that have befallen many of this Founding's Chapters have entered it into the lore of the Inquisition and the Space Marines alike as the so-called "Cursed Founding," and with good reason, and many now consider those Chapters created under its auspices as tainted from their very birth.
Although some Chapters among those of this Founding were spared a devolution into something no longer human or sane, its mark is still upon them in the eyes of their fellow Space Marines, many of whom grew to shun these Chapters, regardless of their undoubted loyalty to the Imperium and noble defence of its people. Worse still, some of these Chapters have developed unexpected genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival. As a result, the Chapters of this Founding have gradually dwindled in size as their inability to raise and induct new recruits means that their battle casualties cannot be replaced. The most seriously afflicted Chapters exhibited spontaneous and extreme physical corruption, turning them into a race no longer human or sane. Most of the Space Marine Chapters Founded during this time eventually turned Traitor and swore themselves to Chaos or met a gruesome end at the hands of other Space Marine Chapters and the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus."
There is no arguing with that, yes they had massive issues, they failed quite quite badly.
3: Stop trying to bring history into this, were talking about 40k, sorry to be so blunt but you are very wrong on this point too, they stick steadfastly to dogma in the sense of reason, because grim derp/dark.
1: so where did Guilliman get the destroyed info from then? did the alpha legion give it to him? there was only one that I am aware of in deliverence lost and that was stolen, any others were destroyed when the facility housing them was destroyed. So again, did guilliman pull it out of his arse? do you not see the massive plot hole here, this is handwavium at its best.
So we know such a device exists, and is in the hands of the Alpha Legion. rather then say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet" you immediatly decry it as bad writing with a plot hole?
We know from Ruinstorm that Gulliman moved to engaged the Traitor fleets well the Lion laid siege to their holdings, so that the Blood Angels could reach Terra safely. would Gulliman aquiring the item from the Alpha Legion eaither during those actions, or during the scouring REALLY be all that strange? Maybe Gulliman pulled it off Alpharius' still cooling corpse after he killed him?
2: "2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how? "
this would be relevant if Cawl had started the Primaris Project after the 21st founding he didn't. what we CAN take away from the 21st founding is that the High Lords of Terra felt comfortable ordering attempts at addressing the flaws in geneseed addressed and the Adeptus Mechanicus where willing to attempt to do so.
So we know such a device exists, and is in the hands of the Alpha Legion. rather then say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet" you immediatly decry it as bad writing with a plot hole?
We know from Ruinstorm that Gulliman moved to engaged the Traitor fleets well the Lion laid siege to their holdings, so that the Blood Angels could reach Terra safely. would Gulliman aquiring the item from the Alpha Legion eaither during those actions, or during the scouring REALLY be all that strange? Maybe Gulliman pulled it off Alpharius' still cooling corpse after he killed him?
I decry it as bad storytelling because it is, you say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet", and I say, why would the alpha legion give it to guiliman? they wouldnt.
No had he gotten the goo we would have been told, did he get it during the scouring, no, as again we would have been told, did he get it off "alpharius" when he killed him, no, such a device would never have been brought into a battle, so far you have raised some decent posts but these are just grasping at straws.
this would be relevant if Cawl had started the Primaris Project after the 21st founding he didn't. what we CAN take away from the 21st founding is that the High Lords of Terra felt comfortable ordering attempts at addressing the flaws in geneseed addressed and the Adeptus Mechanicus where willing to attempt to do so.
No the only thing you can take from the 21st founding is that ONCE during 10,000 years a secret project was green lighted and failed, never tried again and buried, the exception proves the rule, not the other way around.
So to summarise, thus far no one has been able to convince me that Cawl has not broken established tropes and rules of the setting, he has somehow had access to lost technology and allowed to innovate, thus far with zero ramifications, he is somehow better than anyone else in the setting, with skills and abilities that no one else has, so I consider him a "bit" of a mary sue.
I like to think that Caul actually had something to do with tje cursed founding, and that his first field test of improved marines left alot to he desired.
Not all where horrible mutants. I think the sons of antaeus are supposedly a bit primaris like im being more durable than regular marines, and they are 21st founding ifnI remember right.
So we know such a device exists, and is in the hands of the Alpha Legion. rather then say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet" you immediatly decry it as bad writing with a plot hole?
We know from Ruinstorm that Gulliman moved to engaged the Traitor fleets well the Lion laid siege to their holdings, so that the Blood Angels could reach Terra safely. would Gulliman aquiring the item from the Alpha Legion eaither during those actions, or during the scouring REALLY be all that strange? Maybe Gulliman pulled it off Alpharius' still cooling corpse after he killed him?
I decry it as bad storytelling because it is, you say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet", and I say, why would the alpha legion give it to guiliman? they wouldnt.
No had he gotten the goo we would have been told, did he get it during the scouring, no, as again we would have been told, did he get it off "alpharius" when he killed him, no, such a device would never have been brought into a battle, so far you have raised some decent posts but these are just grasping at straws.
this would be relevant if Cawl had started the Primaris Project after the 21st founding he didn't. what we CAN take away from the 21st founding is that the High Lords of Terra felt comfortable ordering attempts at addressing the flaws in geneseed addressed and the Adeptus Mechanicus where willing to attempt to do so.
No the only thing you can take from the 21st founding is that ONCE during 10,000 years a secret project was green lighted and failed, never tried again and buried, the exception proves the rule, not the other way around.
So to summarise, thus far no one has been able to convince me that Cawl has not broken established tropes and rules of the setting, he has somehow had access to lost technology and allowed to innovate, thus far with zero ramifications, he is somehow better than anyone else in the setting, with skills and abilities that no one else has, so I consider him a "bit" of a mary sue.
we wouldn't have been told if it's not happned yet in the HH books no. there is plenty of time to use the HH line to give us some hints at the orgins of primaris Marines. I think it's a bit early to decry it, Cawl has finally appered in a HH novel, so I suspect we'll be seeing more of him
Carlovonsexron wrote: I like to think that Caul actually had something to do with tje cursed founding, and that his first field test of improved marines left alot to he desired.
Not all where horrible mutants. I think the sons of antaeus are supposedly a bit primaris like im being more durable than regular marines, and they are 21st founding ifnI remember right.
They are/were. And are one of the only cursed founding with no obvious drawback.
Honestly, I don't mind the primaris being a thing so much as I'd like to see it tied to other stuff (like the cursed founding)
Carlovonsexron wrote: I like to think that Caul actually had something to do with tje cursed founding, and that his first field test of improved marines left alot to he desired.
Not all where horrible mutants. I think the sons of antaeus are supposedly a bit primaris like im being more durable than regular marines, and they are 21st founding ifnI remember right.
They are/were. And are one of the only cursed founding with no obvious drawback.
Honestly, I don't mind the primaris being a thing so much as I'd like to see it tied to other stuff (like the cursed founding)
I suspect it will be, give it 5 years and we'll be joking that every second mystery of 40k was "Cawl and the Primaris Project"
It would be kinda fun if cawl managed to leverage some artifact or tome of chaos knowledge the thousand soms were interested in in return for them getting all of fabulous Bill's research. (The thousand sons mostly because of all the traitor factions they, probably Ahriman in particular while still at odds with Magnus, seem like the most open to bargaining)
