This is designed how do you think the primarchs would re-act to the current state of their chapters upon their return.
Any Primarch can return in this scenario, even Ferrus Manus if you wish. This is purely a what if, and how would they react.
I believe if/when the Lion comes back he would be satisfied that all the successor Chapters have Grand Masters but Azrael of the DA is the Supreme Grand Master. Ultimately all successor chapters still report to the DA which can;t be said for other legions.... er I mean Chapters.
I believe the Lion would be quick to judge the Primaris after hearing they are approved by Bobby and field them on a big mission with himself so he could test their might personally. But Overall aside from the whole Luther thing I wreckon he;d be pretty happy with the DA and their continued hunt for the fallen.
Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Oh yeah, forgot about that, have you read old earth yet?
Spoiler:
as the Iron hands pretty much turn renegade for a bit and betray meduson and other shattered legion forces
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Oh yeah, forgot about that, have you read old earth yet?
Spoiler:
as the Iron hands pretty much turn renegade for a bit and betray meduson and other shattered legion forces
Leman Russ would have a few choice words to shout at the idiots his legion has become, from losing 90% of the Fenrisian population (thus making them a Dead Legion Walking unless they get some Magical Cawl Juice in them, at which point they won't be Vlka Fenryka anymore) to becoming a legion of literal furrys riding literal Santa Sleighs.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Oh yeah, forgot about that, have you read old earth yet?
Spoiler:
as the Iron hands pretty much turn renegade for a bit and betray meduson and other shattered legion forces
Yeah. The Heresy hits them REAL hard.
Its the first time in ANY 40k book I have had to stop reading and just say.... feth you man... feth you.
TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs. Sanguinius would be panicking about the whole Rage/Thirst thing and the crazier successor chapters (Flesh Tearers) and be a bit pissed about dissolving the legions, but wouldn’t blame the BA because none of it’s really their fault. As for Kurze, “I’m disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.”
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs. Sanguinius would be panicking about the whole Rage/Thirst thing and the crazier successor chapters (Flesh Tearers) and be a bit pissed about dissolving the legions, but wouldn’t blame the BA because none of it’s really their fault. As for Kurze, “I’m disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.”
Why would Sanguinius be opposed to the fracturing of the Legions?
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs. Sanguinius would be panicking about the whole Rage/Thirst thing and the crazier successor chapters (Flesh Tearers) and be a bit pissed about dissolving the legions, but wouldn’t blame the BA because none of it’s really their fault. As for Kurze, “I’m disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.”
Why would Sanguinius be opposed to the fracturing of the Legions?
I'm glad I wasn't the only one asking this, Sanguinis strikes as one of the most likely to see the necessity of that
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs. Sanguinius would be panicking about the whole Rage/Thirst thing and the crazier successor chapters (Flesh Tearers) and be a bit pissed about dissolving the legions, but wouldn’t blame the BA because none of it’s really their fault. As for Kurze, “I’m disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.”
Why would Sanguinius be opposed to the fracturing of the Legions?
Because it prevented the less genetically/psychologically affected portions of the BA from supporting the more affected ones. If the marines that would otherwise be the Lamenters, who handled the Red Thirst pretty well, could be organized into a system that had them supporting the marines that would otherwise be the successors with the creepy vampire sacrifice rituals and other such poorly developed methods for coping with the geneseed’s flaws then the BA might be able to deal with their problems better overall. Because each successor has its own way of dealing with the curse, then some of them are stuck using terrible methods like cannibalism (they’re called the Flesh Eaters for a reason) because they lack the guidance of Corbulo and Astorath who, if the BA were a unified legion, would be able to help without going half the galaxy away and violating Codex Astartes rules about chapter organization.
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs. Sanguinius would be panicking about the whole Rage/Thirst thing and the crazier successor chapters (Flesh Tearers) and be a bit pissed about dissolving the legions, but wouldn’t blame the BA because none of it’s really their fault. As for Kurze, “I’m disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.”
Why would Sanguinius be opposed to the fracturing of the Legions?
I'm glad I wasn't the only one asking this, Sanguinis strikes as one of the most likely to see the necessity of that
Yep, the rest to a greater and lesser degree would likely want their legion back given the current state of the imperium, it’s almost reaching old night levels of broken.
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs. Sanguinius would be panicking about the whole Rage/Thirst thing and the crazier successor chapters (Flesh Tearers) and be a bit pissed about dissolving the legions, but wouldn’t blame the BA because none of it’s really their fault. As for Kurze, “I’m disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.”
Why would Sanguinius be opposed to the fracturing of the Legions?
Because it prevented the less genetically/psychologically affected portions of the BA from supporting the more affected ones. If the marines that would otherwise be the Lamenters, who handled the Red Thirst pretty well, could be organized into a system that had them supporting the marines that would otherwise be the successors with the creepy vampire sacrifice rituals and other such poorly developed methods for coping with the geneseed’s flaws then the BA might be able to deal with their problems better overall. Because each successor has its own way of dealing with the curse, then some of them are stuck using terrible methods like cannibalism (they’re called the Flesh Eaters for a reason) because they lack the guidance of Corbulo and Astorath who, if the BA were a unified legion, would be able to help without going half the galaxy away and violating Codex Astartes rules about chapter organization.
Alternatively, the Blood Angels could devolve into a Chapter like the Flesh Eaters/Tearers, if someone like Corbulo or Astorath weren't to be in power.
With a lack of more drastic compartmentalization, potential victims of the Red Thirst/Black Rage could spread, and if a figure like Dante, the head of the Blood Angels, were to fall to the Rage or Thirst, then that's a whole Legion compromised - which is EXACTLY what the Codex was designed to stop.
Vulkan would be happy enough, I'd suggest. The Salamanders basically kept their organisation intact and retained their bro tier humanitarianism in the face of a galaxy full of nastiness on every side. I'm looking at you, Marines Malevolent.
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs.
Provided he doesn't notice that (aside from the phalanx itself) pretty much the only relics the chapter has left are recovered ones that he thought he handed out to successor chapters when he broke up the legion.
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs.
Provided he doesn't notice that (aside from the phalanx itself) pretty much the only relics the chapter has left are recovered ones that he thought he handed out to successor chapters when he broke up the legion.
then there's the matter of the first chapter to fall to chaos post-heresy...
gnome_idea_what wrote: TBH Dorn would probably be fine with the direction the Imperial Fists have gone, he was there for a lot of the stuff that’s freakout-worthy for other primarchs.
Provided he doesn't notice that (aside from the phalanx itself) pretty much the only relics the chapter has left are recovered ones that he thought he handed out to successor chapters when he broke up the legion.
Yeah - I think he'd be a bit shocked to know that his actual Imperial Fists
The lions return is potentially very interesting. Most people seem to assume he’ll be fine with all the shenanigans his sons have got up to, but this is not guaranteed. His nap time started straight after his fight with Luther so he has no idea what the dark angels and successors have been doing for the last 10,000 years.
He could be epically upset and regard his sons as borderline traitors, if he takes this attitude there is the remote chance of going so far as to kill off the inner circles of all his chapters.
I think GW will have him support his sons actions but I find the other possible response potentially more interesting.
Magnus invaded Fenris, any sympathy Russ had for his brother after what he did to Prospero would be gone.
Wolves turned from monsters into do-gooders.
I doubt the TWC would bother him, the sleigh would have to go, although the 7th ed Codex claims all the Space Wolves Chapter Masters used it so Russ might well need to slap himself and Bjorn before Grimnar cops one.
Hopefully he starts forcing the use of the Fenrisian dialect in the chapter organisation, ditch the Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard and welcome the Jarls and Huskjarls.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Magnus invaded Fenris, any sympathy Russ had for his brother after what he did to Prospero would be gone.
Wolves turned from monsters into do-gooders.
I doubt the TWC would bother him, the sleigh would have to go, although the 7th ed Codex claims all the Space Wolves Chapter Masters used it so Russ might well need to slap himself and Bjorn before Grimnar cops one.
Hopefully he starts forcing the use of the Fenrisian dialect in the chapter organisation, ditch the Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard and welcome the Jarls and Huskjarls.
Not necessarily. Before the newer fluff came out I would have absolutely agreed with you. But, the new Leman Russ fluff apparently portrays him as feeling massive amounts of guilt over Prospero, apparently to the point that he has questioned his entire dislike of psykers, and even the emperor's ruling at nikea. There is very definitely a Loki/Thor vibe going on between Magnus and Leman Russ. I'm not sure this new Russ would blame Magnus for raging against him and his legion by invading Fenris. He might even feel like he and his legion deserved it.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Magnus invaded Fenris, any sympathy Russ had for his brother after what he did to Prospero would be gone.
Wolves turned from monsters into do-gooders.
I doubt the TWC would bother him, the sleigh would have to go, although the 7th ed Codex claims all the Space Wolves Chapter Masters used it so Russ might well need to slap himself and Bjorn before Grimnar cops one.
Hopefully he starts forcing the use of the Fenrisian dialect in the chapter organisation, ditch the Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard and welcome the Jarls and Huskjarls.
Not necessarily. Before the newer fluff came out I would have absolutely agreed with you. But, the new Leman Russ fluff apparently portrays him as feeling massive amounts of guilt over Prospero, apparently to the point that he has questioned his entire dislike of psykers, and even the emperor's ruling at nikea. There is very definitely a Loki/Thor vibe going on between Magnus and Leman Russ. I'm not sure this new Russ would blame Magnus for raging against him and his legion by invading Fenris. He might even feel like he and his legion deserved it.
Tell me the Wolves aren't doomed to become Angel from the Buffy series. Even if it takes an eternity, they will make amends.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the Angel series but penitent heroes is moving still further away from Space Vikings.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Magnus invaded Fenris, any sympathy Russ had for his brother after what he did to Prospero would be gone.
Wolves turned from monsters into do-gooders.
I doubt the TWC would bother him, the sleigh would have to go, although the 7th ed Codex claims all the Space Wolves Chapter Masters used it so Russ might well need to slap himself and Bjorn before Grimnar cops one.
Hopefully he starts forcing the use of the Fenrisian dialect in the chapter organisation, ditch the Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard and welcome the Jarls and Huskjarls.
Not necessarily. Before the newer fluff came out I would have absolutely agreed with you. But, the new Leman Russ fluff apparently portrays him as feeling massive amounts of guilt over Prospero, apparently to the point that he has questioned his entire dislike of psykers, and even the emperor's ruling at nikea. There is very definitely a Loki/Thor vibe going on between Magnus and Leman Russ. I'm not sure this new Russ would blame Magnus for raging against him and his legion by invading Fenris. He might even feel like he and his legion deserved it.
Tell me the Wolves aren't doomed to become Angel from the Buffy series. Even if it takes an eternity, they will make amends.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the Angel series but penitent heroes is moving still further away from Space Vikings.
No danger of that, it’s bascially one sentence that Russ says he regrets what he did and being manipulated by Horus, but it needed to be done, he also gets confronted about using psykers and uses the same BS excuse “power from fenris”
SeanDavid1991 wrote: This is designed how do you think the primarchs would re-act to the current state of their chapters upon their return.
Any Primarch can return in this scenario, even Ferrus Manus if you wish. This is purely a what if, and how would they react.
I believe if/when the Lion comes back he would be satisfied that all the successor Chapters have Grand Masters but Azrael of the DA is the Supreme Grand Master. Ultimately all successor chapters still report to the DA which can;t be said for other legions.... er I mean Chapters.
I believe the Lion would be quick to judge the Primaris after hearing they are approved by Bobby and field them on a big mission with himself so he could test their might personally. But Overall aside from the whole Luther thing I wreckon he;d be pretty happy with the DA and their continued hunt for the fallen.
I'd tend to agree, his sons have remained relatively very well united, loyal and effective. But I think he'd definitely impose some reforms. Maybe reform the legion. But I think he'd have reservations about some of the more clandestine actions of the Inner Circle and their hunt for the Fallen, so defeating Luther, possibly in open war (or even getting him back in the fold if his 10,000 years of regret were genuine), would probably be a priority to scrub the collective conscience of the Dark Angels in one fell swoop. but overall sure I think he would be satisfied with his Legions efforts to track down their traitors and the other more public heroisms they have prosecuted.
Formosa wrote: No danger of that, it’s bascially one sentence that Russ says he regrets what he did and being manipulated by Horus, but it needed to be done, he also gets confronted about using psykers and uses the same BS excuse “power from fenris”
Ah ok, people were making it seem like the fluff behind Russ being a huge douche was changed somewhat. Glad to see that Russ is still good old Russ for the most part aside from a few moments of mature introspection. I liked the old version of Russ better anyway, he was deliciously flawed.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Magnus invaded Fenris, any sympathy Russ had for his brother after what he did to Prospero would be gone.
Wolves turned from monsters into do-gooders.
I doubt the TWC would bother him, the sleigh would have to go, although the 7th ed Codex claims all the Space Wolves Chapter Masters used it so Russ might well need to slap himself and Bjorn before Grimnar cops one.
Hopefully he starts forcing the use of the Fenrisian dialect in the chapter organisation, ditch the Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard and welcome the Jarls and Huskjarls.
Not necessarily. Before the newer fluff came out I would have absolutely agreed with you. But, the new Leman Russ fluff apparently portrays him as feeling massive amounts of guilt over Prospero, apparently to the point that he has questioned his entire dislike of psykers, and even the emperor's ruling at nikea. There is very definitely a Loki/Thor vibe going on between Magnus and Leman Russ. I'm not sure this new Russ would blame Magnus for raging against him and his legion by invading Fenris. He might even feel like he and his legion deserved it.
That seems dumb. Magnus wanting revenge is justified but he did that in the Battle of the Fang. The whole invade and destroy multiple planets thing seems like just overdoing it. I think it's a very....basic revenge for someone like Magnus as well.
Formosa wrote: No danger of that, it’s bascially one sentence that Russ says he regrets what he did and being manipulated by Horus, but it needed to be done, he also gets confronted about using psykers and uses the same BS excuse “power from fenris”
Ah ok, people were making it seem like the fluff behind Russ being a huge douche was changed somewhat. Glad to see that Russ is still good old Russ for the most part aside from a few moments of mature introspection. I liked the old version of Russ better anyway, he was deliciously flawed.
Yep so do I, I much prefer the relatively new flawed primarchs simply because it makes them more relatable, the irony is they are more human that the space marines.... and that perhaps is the reason so many fell.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Magnus invaded Fenris, any sympathy Russ had for his brother after what he did to Prospero would be gone.
Wolves turned from monsters into do-gooders.
I doubt the TWC would bother him, the sleigh would have to go, although the 7th ed Codex claims all the Space Wolves Chapter Masters used it so Russ might well need to slap himself and Bjorn before Grimnar cops one.
Hopefully he starts forcing the use of the Fenrisian dialect in the chapter organisation, ditch the Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard and welcome the Jarls and Huskjarls.
Not necessarily. Before the newer fluff came out I would have absolutely agreed with you. But, the new Leman Russ fluff apparently portrays him as feeling massive amounts of guilt over Prospero, apparently to the point that he has questioned his entire dislike of psykers, and even the emperor's ruling at nikea. There is very definitely a Loki/Thor vibe going on between Magnus and Leman Russ. I'm not sure this new Russ would blame Magnus for raging against him and his legion by invading Fenris. He might even feel like he and his legion deserved it.
That seems dumb. Magnus wanting revenge is justified but he did that in the Battle of the Fang. The whole invade and destroy multiple planets thing seems like just overdoing it. I think it's a very....basic revenge for someone like Magnus as well.
Ok bare with me dude, as I am working off memory, Spoiler for those who havent read it.
Spoiler:
So magnus has had his soul shattered, Crimson king has his boys going to find these shards and reuniting them with Magnus prime, kicker is, they dont get all the shards, one is on Terra, thats the part of his soul that has his ability to see his past (not literally I assume) and the other was destroyed by the Khan, I think that one was his "humanity", so the 40k Magnus is not the HH Magnus, literally its a different person as it lacks key parts of his experience and soul
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.
Formosa wrote: Yep so do I, I much prefer the relatively new flawed primarchs simply because it makes them more relatable, the irony is they are more human that the space marines.... and that perhaps is the reason so many fell.
Well, Curze was destined to fall. As for Angron, the instant the emperor teleported him away from the battle on his homeworld he was doomed to fall. The emperor forced him to watch his friends/family/troops die and prevented him from helping, which Angron never forgave the emperor for, or himself. It broke him completely. Magnus' fall wasn't really his fault either, it was masterminded by Tzeench himself. Horus was turned to chaos by evil space magic. Fulgrim was possessed by a demon hiding in a sword. Alpharius turned because he honestly believed that by turning, he would be helping to destroy chaos in the long run.
The only Primarchs who fell to chaos purely due to their own character flaws were Perturabo, Mortarion, and Lorgar. Although the emperor being a douche towards all three at various times didn't help things.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.
How do you figure that he'd be happy?
10,000 years of Viking killly and drinking. He was a geneteically engineered killing machine, the Emperor's bloody mace. Deep thinker he was not.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.
How do you figure that he'd be happy?
10,000 years of Viking killly and drinking. He was a geneteically engineered killing machine, the Emperor's bloody mace. Deep thinker he was not.
dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ferrus would be pretty appalled with his Chapter/Legion. He knew that his men were starting to take the whole metal-worship thing too far, and was going to deal with it... after Istvaan.
Leman Russ would have an epic party. I'd think he'd be very happy with his doggies.
How do you figure that he'd be happy?
10,000 years of Viking killly and drinking. He was a geneteically engineered killing machine, the Emperor's bloody mace. Deep thinker he was not.
9,300. They've been do gooders since Grimnar took over.
BrianDavion wrote: dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time
He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.
BrianDavion wrote: dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time
He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.
He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?
BrianDavion wrote: dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time
He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.
He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?
The HH novels are pretty consistant that the whole crude barbarian thing is a play act
Dakka Wolf wrote: He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?
Fenrisian "runes" are the equivalent of crude pictographs, he wasn't "reading" anything. Fenrisian doesn't have a written language. it's why rune priests exist, they pass on the oral traditions of the chapter down because Fenrisians never write anything down. It is heavily implied in many books that most space wolves are illiterate. I also remember Russ bragging in one of the HH books that he couldn't read and never wanted to learn.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'd also like to point out that Russ is the only Primarch the Emperor had to physically discipline.
By LITERALLY knocking him out with a punch. I mean, you have to be a little bit special (in the bad sense) for that to happen...
Nothing special about it, rather simple actually. The Emperor had to prove that he was Russ' alpha meaning he had to beat Russ personally. Had he stomped the Fenrisians with military might he would have had another Angron. Had he sent Horus to beat Russ into submission then Horus would have been Russ' alpha and Russ would have followed Horus who followed the Emperor but not followed the Emperor himself. Had he shown up in a blaze of glory the Fenrisians would have believed him a monster, and died for glory rather than bow to him.
Considering the Emperor's success rate with recruiting loyal primarchs he was rather lucky that he read Russ correctly.
Dakka Wolf wrote: He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?
Fenrisian "runes" are the equivalent of crude pictographs, he wasn't "reading" anything. Fenrisian doesn't have a written language. it's why rune priests exist, they pass on the oral traditions of the chapter down because Fenrisians never write anything down. It is heavily implied in many books that most space wolves are illiterate. I also remember Russ bragging in one of the HH books that he couldn't read and never wanted to learn.
Yeah, I'm sure some of the elite warriors of the Imperium who have a computer downloaded into their brains can't read. Citation needed.
Formosa wrote: Yep so do I, I much prefer the relatively new flawed primarchs simply because it makes them more relatable, the irony is they are more human that the space marines.... and that perhaps is the reason so many fell.
Well, Curze was destined to fall. As for Angron, the instant the emperor teleported him away from the battle on his homeworld he was doomed to fall. The emperor forced him to watch his friends/family/troops die and prevented him from helping, which Angron never forgave the emperor for, or himself. It broke him completely. Magnus' fall wasn't really his fault either, it was masterminded by Tzeench himself. Horus was turned to chaos by evil space magic. Fulgrim was possessed by a demon hiding in a sword. Alpharius turned because he honestly believed that by turning, he would be helping to destroy chaos in the long run.
The only Primarchs who fell to chaos purely due to their own character flaws were Perturabo, Mortarion, and Lorgar. Although the emperor being a douche towards all three at various times didn't help things.
Ergh thats all so basic.....
Heres my take on it, and just to be clear because some on Dakka really have trouble telling the difference between someones opinion, which may differ and stating something as a catagorical fact, this is my OPINION or INTERPRETATION, that being said, on with the show
Angron: Yep being whisked away was a large factor, but not the only factor, he was damned the second the nails were hammered into him, not being able to sleep (and yes ive read wolfbane now and primarchs do need sleep) caused several psychosis to manifest, paranoia, anger issues, bipolar disorder etc. for the most part he could focus his issues and vent with his brothers and sisters against the rulers of nuceria, but then he gets whisked away by the Emperor, this further compounds his damaged psyche to such an extent that he sufferes from PTSD or Survivors guilt as he has never been taught any coping mechanisms (that we naturally learn growing up) he simply does not know any other way to express his mental issues, other than anger and rage, something the nails encourage... poor sod.
Curze: Is very similar to Angron in that he never actually learned how to be civilised, his way of controlling his enviroment were the products of his envirioment, even when he got to learn from the imperium it was already too late, his formative years had already made him the man he was, so cursed with terrible visions, steeped in fear and hatred from other humans, he was never going to be a normal person, take him from Nostramo and put him on Macragge, he would have been a very different person... which i suppose it kind of the point.
Magnus: It was always Magnus fault he fell, he had all the opertunities to change his path, but he thought he knew best, for Tzeench to get his claws in Magnus at one point had to say "yes" but because he thought himself the master of the warp he took that power and believed he would face no consequences, he was wrong, he also harboured the most powerful deamon we have ever seen in the 40k universe "shaytan", that was his first step on the path of damnation, but why did he do all of this, simple, he was also a product of his upbringing, knowledge, prosperos culture was all about the pursuit of knowledge.... Magnus is responsible for his own actions more than any other person on this list, he was warned... he knew and he CHOSE to ignore those warning. I ignore the Edict as it was designed to set him up to fail.
Horus: Horus was not turned by space magic, thats far too simplistic, that was just the worm that got into his head, the thing that brought all his doubts and fears to the for, these things already existed within him, and elevating him to Warmaster, putting resposability on him that he believed he was not worthy of, well that also increased his self doubt, so all those visions he was shown, well, he sees a future where he is not present, why? did he fail? or is it another reason?
And thats how chaos gets you, that little seed of doubt, thing with Horus was that seed was a tree by the time Chaos got to him, also throw in that Horus was an amazing stratagist, he would have seen the orders from Terra placing certain legions in certain places, he would have worked out that the Primarchs were all made for certain conflicting reasons, and those reasons would naturally produced conflict in them, possibly leading to outright war, he wasnt a fool, so he likely knew that a Rebellion would happen eventually (the legions were already preparing for it, against the mechanicus though), so when Chaos lifted the veil from His eyes all that psychic moulding that the Emperor has done to all the primarchs was lifted, so Horus saw the Emperors plan for what it truelly was, the death of the primarchs and legions eventually, so he felt betrayed by the Emperor.
Ergh... too much writing, i will come back to this or start a new thread lol
Dakka Wolf wrote: He reads Fenrisian runes easily enough in Leman Russ the Great Wolf. You sure your information didn't come from Bedtime Stories with Grandpa Bjorn?
Fenrisian "runes" are the equivalent of crude pictographs, he wasn't "reading" anything. Fenrisian doesn't have a written language. it's why rune priests exist, they pass on the oral traditions of the chapter down because Fenrisians never write anything down. It is heavily implied in many books that most space wolves are illiterate. I also remember Russ bragging in one of the HH books that he couldn't read and never wanted to learn.
Yeah, I'm sure some of the elite warriors of the Imperium who have a computer downloaded into their brains can't read. Citation needed.
Yeah sorry Wizard your wrong on this, The Ragnar Blackmane series clearly shows them using the standard psychoindoctrination process to teach the Wolves language and reading.
Yeah, my basic explanation didn't do what actually happened justice, but i stand by what I said. Only three of the traitor primarchs, fell PURELY through their own character flaws instead of being pushed or "assisted" by chaos. Horus never would have fallen if it wasn't for getting stabbed by the athame, angron wouldn't have fallen if not for the butcher's nails and the slaughter at desh'elika ridge, fulgrim wouldn't have fallen if he hadn't been possessed by that demon etc... That is not to say their personal flaws didn't help them along, but they weren't the PRIMARY reason for their falls.
Agree to disagree on Magnus. Magnus certainly was arrogant, he broke the emperor's rules, and dabbled in things he shouldn't have. However, he was being strung along the entire time, pushed, prodded, and manipulated by Tzeench himself. Magnus only did what he did because he had the best intentions and wanted to help the Imperium. He was played HARD, because Tzeench took those good intentions and twisted them against Magnus from the very beginning. I would argue that Magnus was as doomed to fall as Cruze as soon as he drew the attention of the ruinous powers. But even at that Magnus remained loyal until the bitter end. He deactivated the defenses around Prospero so the wolves could land unopposed. He refused to participate for most of the battle because he felt his fate was richly deserved. It was only after he realized that his legion shouldn't suffer death for his mistake did he start fighting back in order to teleport them away. Even at the end, he fully intended to stay behind and let Russ kill him because that is what he felt he deserved, until Tzeench said "no you don't, I'm not done with you yet" and teleported him away, denying Magnus from even dying. No, Magnus didn't fall because he was arrogant or too curious for his own good (he certainly was those), he fell because Tzeench owned him hard.
If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.
Formosa wrote: Yeah sorry Wizard your wrong on this, The Ragnar Blackmane series clearly shows them using the standard psychoindoctrination process to teach the Wolves language and reading.
I honestly forget which book it was, but it was the scene where Russ meets the Lion for the first time and the Lion is reading the book under the tree. Russ flat out tells Johnson he can't read. So unless Russ was lying...
Nothing in there states that they are taught how to read or any other scholarly skill. They are certainly taught how to operate their equipment and how to speak low gothic, but neither of those requires the ability to read. I can speak passable amount of Russian because one of my best friends speaks it as a primary language, but ask me to read or spell anything in it and you are completely out of luck. I don't even understand the basic alphabet.
Space Wolves themselves are recruited purely from Fenris. Fenrisian has no written language, and all of their culture is passed down through oral tradition. Therefore, none of the space wolves know how to read upon induction into the space marines, and it is unlikely that they ever would learn because it is NOT a part of the process for creating a space marine. This would seem to mesh with the portrayal of the space wolves as being disdainful at best, and downright hostile at worst towards any kind of scholarly pursuit outside of being a rune priest.
The space wolves did not have any kind of written history of their chapter. All information was passed down by rune priests and disseminated to the space wolves through story and song. Rune priests would pass this knowledge to each other, down through the generations to ensure that knowledge was not lost.
In all of the 40k books I've ever read, nothing at all has indicated to me that the space wolves were anything but Fenrisian in culture and in deed, including all of the limitations and shortcomings that came with that, including illiteracy. In fact, quite the opposite, it was both heavily implied (and in Russ' case outright stated) that space wolves were illiterate outside of Fenrisian runes.
Now... that is not to say that they were unintelligent. An astartes is as quick mentally as they are physically, and were most likely an order of magnitude more intelligent than an unaugmented human. But they were unlearned as hell and proud of it.
(the legions were already preparing for it, against the mechanicus though)
Care to elaborate ? I have never read about that anywhere, but it sounds interresting
Go read the Blurb on the Leviathan dread in the HH legions book, and then read the blurb on the .... giant robot? cant remember its name, anyway, the Leviathan was a direct response to the mechanicum mass producing Thanatars IRRC, which itself was a Automata designed to kill space marines, both were engaging in an arms race
pm713 wrote: If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.
Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.
Formosa wrote: Yeah sorry Wizard your wrong on this, The Ragnar Blackmane series clearly shows them using the standard psychoindoctrination process to teach the Wolves language and reading.
I honestly forget which book it was, but it was the scene where Russ meets the Lion for the first time and the Lion is reading the book under the tree. Russ flat out tells Johnson he can't read. So unless Russ was lying...
Nothing in there states that they are taught how to read or any other scholarly skill. They are certainly taught how to operate their equipment and how to speak low gothic, but neither of those requires the ability to read. I can speak passable amount of Russian because one of my best friends speaks it as a primary language, but ask me to read or spell anything in it and you are completely out of luck. I don't even understand the basic alphabet.
Space Wolves themselves are recruited purely from Fenris. Fenrisian has no written language, and all of their culture is passed down through oral tradition. Therefore, none of the space wolves know how to read upon induction into the space marines, and it is unlikely that they ever would learn because it is NOT a part of the process for creating a space marine. This would seem to mesh with the portrayal of the space wolves as being disdainful at best, and downright hostile at worst towards any kind of scholarly pursuit outside of being a rune priest.
The space wolves did not have any kind of written history of their chapter. All information was passed down by rune priests and disseminated to the space wolves through story and song. Rune priests would pass this knowledge to each other, down through the generations to ensure that knowledge was not lost.
In all of the 40k books I've ever read, nothing at all has indicated to me that the space wolves were anything but Fenrisian in culture and in deed, including all of the limitations and shortcomings that came with that, including illiteracy. In fact, quite the opposite, it was both heavily implied (and in Russ' case outright stated) that space wolves were illiterate outside of Fenrisian runes.
Now... that is not to say that they were unintelligent. An astartes is as quick mentally as they are physically, and were most likely an order of magnitude more intelligent than an unaugmented human. But they were unlearned as hell and proud of it.
Sorry mate Lexi is not a great source of fluff, it misses out a lot and adds a lot of conjecture too
pm713 wrote: If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.
Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.
Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.
While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.
pm713 wrote: If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.
Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.
Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.
While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.
Read Crimson King and A Thousand Sons. It shows how the entire situation was manipulated by Tzeench to get the space wolves to destroy Prospero.
Magnus knew Russ was coming to either kill or arrest him, and to exterminatus Prospero. BOTH. He felt so badly about wrecking the emperor's webway project that he shielded the Space Wolf fleet from the entire planet and purposely lowered the defenses so that the wolves wouldn't have to take casualties while fulfilling their duties. He knew his legion wouldn't lay down their arms quietly so he did the best he could to help the wolves win.
Russ was originally ordered to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus" instead. Even with Russ believing that he was being ordered to kill Magnus, he STILL offered Magnus a chance to surrender. Because of Tzeench's interference, Magnus never got the message and didn't respond, thus Russ thought Magnus wasn't going to come quietly so he went in guns blazing.
Magnus seeing the level of carnage that the wolves were unleashing changed his mind. The wolves were slaughtering EVERYONE, even civilians and surrendering thousand sons. Magnus decided that nobody else should have to die on the account of what HE did so he started the spell to teleport everyone away.
pm713 wrote: If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.
Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.
Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.
While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.
Read Crimson King. It shows how the entire situation was manipulated by Tzeench to get the space wolves to destroy Prospero.
Magnus knew Russ was coming to either kill or arrest him, and to exterminatus Prospero. BOTH. He felt so badly about wrecking the emperor's webway project that he shielded the Space Wolf fleet from the entire planet and purposely lowered the defenses so that the wolves wouldn't have to take casualties while fulfilling their duties. He knew his legion wouldn't lay down their arms quietly so he did the best he could to help the wolves win.
Russ was originally ordered to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus" instead. Even with Russ believing that he was being ordered to kill Magnus, he STILL offered Magnus a chance to surrender. Because of Tzeench's interference, Magnus never got the message and didn't respond, thus Russ thought Magnus wasn't going to come quietly so he went in guns blazing.
Magnus seeing the level of carnage that the wolves were unleashing changed his mind. The wolves were slaughtering EVERYONE, even civilians and surrendering thousand sons. Magnus decided that nobody else should have to die on the account of what HE did so he started the spell to teleport everyone away.
Can you cite that please as I read that book last week and i cant remember even the mention of Tzeench being involved??? not taking the piss, just want to see if I missed something ?
Formosa wrote: Can you cite that please as I read that book last week and i cant remember even the mention of Tzeench being involved??? not taking the piss, just want to see if I missed something ?
Russ thought that one of his men, Kasper Ansbach Hawser was actually a spy for Magnus. He thought this because he was told so by a warp entity. He was actually a chaos agent. Russ passed the surrender demand to Hawser, expecting that it would reach Magnus, but Hawser obviously doesn't do it. You realize that the warp entity that told Russ that Hawser was a 1k Sons plant was most likely Tzeench himself, or a demon under Tzeench's command and that Tzeench planned for this all to happen years in advance. It is never outright stated, but it is heavily implied. Just as planned.
As for Tzeench being the mastermind behind everything. Magnus realizes during the fight with Russ that EVERYTHING had been set up perfectly, and that he had been outplayed hard and used as a tool to destroy the emperor's webway project. Everything was just too neat, and this was obviously the design of the changer of ways. Tzeench teleporting Magnus away before he can be killed kind of confirms Magnus' suspicions.
EDIT: It may not have been Crimson King, but possibly A Thousand Sons? Honestly, there are so many 40k book they all kind of blur together.
pm713 wrote: If Magnus was so intent on surrendering himself but sparing the Legion then why didn't he tell Russ he was going to his ship? Or just going there directly and surrendering? Magnus' actions are not those of someone trying to prevent a conflict and in no way was he loyal. Loyalists don't intentionally and knowingly ignore rules that were made law very clearly.
Because Russ was sent to kill Magnus on Horus' orders. There was no surrendering. Magnus was waiting for Russ to come and kill him and burn Prospero to the ground. Even under Horus' kill orders Russ originally offered for Magnus to surrender, but due to Tzeench interfering Magnus never got the message, after that Russ wanted blood.
Russ can't be both willing to accept a surrender and have Magnus be unable to surrender. He had enough power to talk to Russ when he arrived and take himself to Russ's ship without anybody knowing. We also know that Magnus isn't a braindead idiot so he knows that too. Either Magnus is unwilling to surrender himself or he's dumb as bricks. Seeing as it's pretty unfair to say that stupidity is a part of the scholar Primarch's character it must be the former.
While I'm posting I want to make a point about the Space Wolf reading thing. A part of Space Wolf training is all the knowledge of their equipment, tactics, Imperium and all that is downloaded into their brains from a computer. That includes writing and reading things.
Read Crimson King and A Thousand Sons. It shows how the entire situation was manipulated by Tzeench to get the space wolves to destroy Prospero.
Magnus knew Russ was coming to either kill or arrest him, and to exterminatus Prospero. BOTH. He felt so badly about wrecking the emperor's webway project that he shielded the Space Wolf fleet from the entire planet and purposely lowered the defenses so that the wolves wouldn't have to take casualties while fulfilling their duties. He knew his legion wouldn't lay down their arms quietly so he did the best he could to help the wolves win.
Russ was originally ordered to arrest Magnus. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus" instead. Even with Russ believing that he was being ordered to kill Magnus, he STILL offered Magnus a chance to surrender. Because of Tzeench's interference, Magnus never got the message and didn't respond, thus Russ thought Magnus wasn't going to come quietly so he went in guns blazing.
Magnus seeing the level of carnage that the wolves were unleashing changed his mind. The wolves were slaughtering EVERYONE, even civilians and surrendering thousand sons. Magnus decided that nobody else should have to die on the account of what HE did so he started the spell to teleport everyone away.
But again Russ attempted sparing Prospero if Magnus surrendered and with the powers at his disposal Magnus could have easily discovered that and surrendered. If he only wanted to spare the civilians from the death he knew was coming then he could have sent them somewhere else. At the end of the day Magnus wasn't really willing to surrender himself or help the wolves seriously enough to actually plan it out. His fall is tragic but not as much as said in the original point. The cornerstones of Magnus falling are arrogance and ignorance plain and simple.
pm713 wrote: But again Russ attempted sparing Prospero if Magnus surrendered and with the powers at his disposal Magnus could have easily discovered that and surrendered. If he only wanted to spare the civilians from the death he knew was coming then he could have sent them somewhere else. At the end of the day Magnus wasn't really willing to surrender himself or help the wolves seriously enough to actually plan it out. His fall is tragic but not as much as said in the original point. The cornerstones of Magnus falling are arrogance and ignorance plain and simple.
Magnus never got the message because of the machinations of chaos, and he had no way of finding out. I don't know where you get the idea that Magnus could have just snapped his fingers and instantly knew Russ' intent. We as the readers know what is going on, but Magnus had no clue. And if shielding the entire space wolf fleet from orbital sensors, and deactivating one of the most extensive defensive networks in the entire Imperium wasn't "helping the space wolves enough" then I don't know what to say to you.
Magnus got shafted, HARD. His was the most tragic fall out of all of the Primarchs, save for perhaps Angron, because he had nothing but good intentions the entire time and was loyal until the bitter end. Even when he was getting massacred by the wolves he refused to fight back because it would be furthering Tzeench's plan to get the wolves and 1k sons to kill each other off. It was only at the very end, when he could no longer take the space wolves butchery of his people did he finally turn traitor.
Formosa wrote: Can you cite that please as I read that book last week and i cant remember even the mention of Tzeench being involved??? not taking the piss, just want to see if I missed something ?
Russ thought that one of his men, Kasper Ansbach Hawser was actually a spy for Magnus. He thought this because he was told so by a warp entity. He was actually a chaos agent. Russ passed the surrender demand to Hawser, expecting that it would reach Magnus, but Hawser obviously doesn't do it. You realize that the warp entity that told Russ that Hawser was a 1k Sons plant was most likely Tzeench himself, or a demon under Tzeench's command and that Tzeench planned for this all to happen years in advance. It is never outright stated, but it is heavily implied. Just as planned.
As for Tzeench being the mastermind behind everything. Magnus realizes during the fight with Russ that EVERYTHING had been set up perfectly, and that he had been outplayed hard and used as a tool to destroy the emperor's webway project. Everything was just too neat, and this was obviously the design of the changer of ways. Tzeench teleporting Magnus away before he can be killed kind of confirms Magnus' suspicions.
EDIT: It may not have been Crimson King, but possibly A Thousand Sons? Honestly, there are so many 40k book they all kind of blur together.
Kasper was indeed used as a pawn thats clear, and he indeed housed a warp entity in his memories of leaving Terra, the same one that influenced his life subtley most of his life, he was an unknowing agent of chaos is also very true, Russ wrongly passed on an invitation of surrender to Kasper but did not pass on another offer when reaching Prospero, so he wasted his breach, but I can see why he thought he had already made the offer.
Kasper has no control over the entity in his mind so cannot pass on a message to Magnus who has no idea this is evening happening and no idea that Kasper even has a warp creature in his mind, this is where you lose me, your making a leap of logic that is in no way supported by the literature, that warp creature that fights Amon (custodes) and the wolves is in no way Tzeench, possibly a deamon of that god but thats it, as you say, and sure I can see why it looks like its just as planned, but that all rides on one thing... magnus ignoring the Emperors warnings in the first place and saying "yes" to having the power/knowledge to fix the flesh change, Tzeench can scheme all it likes but at the end of the day, it was Magnus that set the ball rolling in the first place, its all on him and he knows it.
Kasper was indeed used as a pawn thats clear, and he indeed housed a warp entity in his memories of leaving Terra, the same one that influenced his life subtley most of his life, he was an unknowing agent of chaos is also very true, Russ wrongly passed on an invitation of surrender to Kasper but did not pass on another offer when reaching Prospero, so he wasted his breach, but I can see why he thought he had already made the offer.
Kasper has no control over the entity in his mind so cannot pass on a message to Magnus who has no idea this is evening happening and no idea that Kasper even has a warp creature in his mind, this is where you lose me, your making a leap of logic that is in no way supported by the literature, that warp creature that fights Amon (custodes) and the wolves is in no way Tzeench, possibly a deamon of that god but thats it, as you say, and sure I can see why it looks like its just as planned, but that all rides on one thing... magnus ignoring the Emperors warnings in the first place and saying "yes" to having the power/knowledge to fix the flesh change, Tzeench can scheme all it likes but at the end of the day, it was Magnus that set the ball rolling in the first place, its all on him and he knows it.
And it was Thousand sons
Like I said, it was never explicitly stated that Tzeench was behind everything, but it fits too well. Magnus even outright suspects in a mental monologue that all of this was planned all along from the very beginning by the Lord of Fate as an elaborate plot to destroy the webway project and weaken the Imperium by killing off two legions.
Yes, Magnus' flaws allowed him to be manipulated by Tzeench, but come on. It's not really fair to blame Magnus for being outwitted by a chaos god.
pm713 wrote: But again Russ attempted sparing Prospero if Magnus surrendered and with the powers at his disposal Magnus could have easily discovered that and surrendered. If he only wanted to spare the civilians from the death he knew was coming then he could have sent them somewhere else. At the end of the day Magnus wasn't really willing to surrender himself or help the wolves seriously enough to actually plan it out. His fall is tragic but not as much as said in the original point. The cornerstones of Magnus falling are arrogance and ignorance plain and simple.
Magnus never got the message because of the machinations of chaos, and he had no way of finding out. I don't know where you get the idea that Magnus could have just snapped his fingers and instantly knew Russ' intent. We as the readers know what is going on, but Magnus had no clue. And if shielding the entire space wolf fleet from orbital sensors, and deactivating one of the most extensive defensive networks in the entire Imperium wasn't "helping the space wolves enough" then I don't know what to say to you.
Magnus got shafted, HARD. His was the most tragic fall out of all of the Primarchs, save for perhaps Angron, because he had nothing but good intentions the entire time and was loyal until the bitter end. Even when he was getting massacred by the wolves he refused to fight back because it would be furthering Tzeench's plan to get the wolves and 1k sons to kill each other off. It was only at the very end, when he could no longer take the space wolves butchery of his people did he finally turn traitor.
I get the impression from the fact Magnus has incredible psychic power. To the point he's the second best human psyker ever. So I think it's safe to say he has telepathy that could have been used to help Russ. He also has foresight which he could have used to disable Thousand Son defence or just wait for Russ to arrive in orbit knowing Russ would take his surrender. Magnus's capabilities made it very easy for him to get a peaceful ending but he just didn't do it.
He helped them yes but nowhere near as much as someone whose accepted their fate has. He could have completely shut down the Thousand Son defenders powers and massively reduced the Wolf casualties. Magnus wasn't someone who'd accepted his fate and was ready to accept the punishment. It was much more like the second stage of his emotional crisis from wrecking the Webway Project (which is an understandable thing if your knowledge is limited to what Magnus knew). First he retreated into privacy, second he tried to repent for what he did and finally he accepted that he was a traitor and had been for a while.
Magnus has a tragic story, I agree, he was a man trying to recover and redistribute knowledge his species lost in chaos and war to make a better tomorrow but the tragedy is he was doing it in a world where that wasn't possible. From the Mechanicus to the Emperor so much of the Imperium went against Magnus dreamt of. That's the tragedy. At another time he would've been revered but he wasn't that lucky.
As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going. Arguably that was when he became traitor. If not then then he was definitely going traitor when he thought instead of telling the Emperor about Horus in a different way he went through the Warp and shattered the Webway Project. When he started killing Astartes he'd been a Traitor for a while, he just didn't accept it. That said I don't blame him for it given the story of his character. The tragedy of Magnus is that he was a person seeking knowledge when that was a very bad thing and his fall could have been avoided with incredible ease.
As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going.
By that logic, Russ is a traitor as well. Russ never stopped using rune priests after Nikea.
As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going.
By that logic, Russ is a traitor as well. Russ never stopped using rune priests after Nikea.
Nor did anybody else. It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
That said, GW really should actually explain whether Rune Priests powers are different somehow and if not why they think they are. I've only seen them as much as mention it from a Wolf perspective once and they ignored it again. Which is a bit sad considering it took me less than 5 minutes to come up with some kind of explanation for it.
As for being a traitor only at the end I have to disagree. Magnus was traitor from the second he brought his Legion back to Prospero to defy the Nikean ruling. He was ordered to halt his psychic exploration but he was too arrogant and just kept on going.
By that logic, Russ is a traitor as well. Russ never stopped using rune priests after Nikea.
And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.
pm713 wrote: Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.
Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship
pm713 wrote: Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.
Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship
Sounds good. I'll pick it up when it finally comes out.
pm713 wrote: Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.
Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship
Sounds good. I'll pick it up when it finally comes out.
pm713 wrote: Is wolfsbane actually worth reading? I'd love to know more about Heresy Wolves but money on GW books could be money on other books so I'd rather have an idea what it's about.
Yes because its a book about the space wolves that doesnt paint them in the perfect light, it shows russ's very public flaws (his brothers know all about them), it also fills a lot of gaps other books have opened, it pick up right after the grey legion guys get back from Horus's ship
Sounds good. I'll pick it up when it finally comes out.
its out mate, its been out for weeks?
Not on Amazon which is generally where I buy books. I could buy it from Black Library but it costs something like £7 more and I'm not paying that when I can either just wait a bit for Amazon or look in a book shop when I next have the chance.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
I think there was viking lore build-up that kind of fell by the wayside when it comes to power from Fenris.
In Viking lore Ragnarok/the endtime happens when Fenris eats the world. So put a 40k swing on it, Fenris is a world, becomes a monster in its own right and eats everything - lets call it the wolftime.
Fenris swallows Odin, not the world any of the other worlds. I've seen some say the sun is eaten by Fenris, but most of the time it is the wolves Skoll and Hati, who chase the sun and moon and will eventually catch them. In the end the realms do survive with surviving gods and humans coming back to rebuild in the aftermath.
w1zard wrote: A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
You should let all those Eldar farseers and warlocks know that their rune magic and rigid mental compartmentalisation isn't actually protecting them from Slaanesh after all...
The fluff has always been pretty clear that there are various ways to channel Warp energy and that some are much safer than others. Channeling through runes (as both Eldar seers and SW rune priests do) is much safer than just opening your soul to the Warp and literally unleashing Hell. Conversely, making pacts with Warp entities to channel more power than you could naturally handle (i.e. sorcery) is especially dangerous.
There's also precedence for planets with particularly rich ecosystems having a gestalt soul capable of accessing the Warp and allowing mortal psykers to tap it relatively safely (possibly by 'filtering out' the daemons), because that's how Eldar Exodite world-spirits work.
So it's entirely possible that SW rune priests really are different and safer than what the TS were doing, and that the Emperor recognised that but couldn't publically explain his reasoning (because understanding the relevant differences would have required knowing about daemons and the Chaos Gods - and also that the SW were unwittingly replicating the practices of xenos 'witches'). The Emperor turning a blind eye to the SW use of psykers makes perfect sense if the Emperor knew they really were 'safe'.
w1zard wrote: A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
You should let all those Eldar farseers and warlocks know that their rune magic and rigid mental compartmentalisation isn't actually protecting them from Slaanesh after all...
The fluff has always been pretty clear that there are various ways to channel Warp energy and that some are much safer than others. Channeling through runes (as both Eldar seers and SW rune priests do) is much safer than just opening your soul to the Warp and literally unleashing Hell. Conversely, making pacts with Warp entities to channel more power than you could naturally handle (i.e. sorcery) is especially dangerous.
There's also precedence for planets with particularly rich ecosystems having a gestalt soul capable of accessing the Warp and allowing mortal psykers to tap it relatively safely (possibly by 'filtering out' the daemons), because that's how Eldar Exodite world-spirits work.
So it's entirely possible that SW rune priests really are different and safer than what the TS were doing, and that the Emperor recognised that but couldn't publically explain his reasoning (because understanding the relevant differences would have required knowing about daemons and the Chaos Gods - and also that the SW were unwittingly replicating the practices of xenos 'witches'). The Emperor turning a blind eye to the SW use of psykers makes perfect sense if the Emperor knew they really were 'safe'.
Your both correct, a psyker is a psyker and draws on the warp, it really doesn’t matter what you CALL it, it’s still drawing on the warp, now the process (not name) is what also matters, the Tsons drew without any thought to how much they should draw, the runepreists limited themselves on purpose.
Both are still psykers, both broke the edict, Russ, jaghatai and sang get a pass, but why? Simple, malcador explains the plan in first lord of the imperium.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
pm713 wrote: Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
What part of "Russ did the exact same thing" don't you understand? If you class Magnus as a traitor for breaking the ruling at Nikea, then Russ is as well, along with Khan and Sanguinius. The fact that Magnus broke it "worse" than the others is irrelevant.
The inquisition work with the full authority of the emperor. Defying the inquisition IS defying the emperor directly. The wolves defied the emperor and the Imperium itself when they refused to submit to the inquisition. They even fought back and killed loyal imperial subjects. The only time the 1k Sons fought and killed other imperials is when they were being directly attacked on Prospero. I still don't get why you are applying your standards of "traitor" so unevenly between the 1k Sons and the Space Wolves.
The fact of the matter is, the Thousand Sons and Magnus were loyal in heart and soul to the Imperium until the very end on Prospero. They broke rules, they did things they shouldn't have, and they ignored warnings, because they thought what they were doing was so important to the future of the Imperium that it didn't matter that they were breaking rules because it was THAT important. They were wrong, and they paid for it. But, to insist that they were anything but loyal subjects that were ultimately manipulated and tricked into betraying the Imperium does them a disservice. They were a far cry from the REAL traitors shouting "death to the false emperor" at the dropsite massacre.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.
That was actually my point...... They all did things in the grey area.
The Inquisition butchered innocents, destroyed multiple worlds with little justification and assaulted one of the oldest Chapters in the Imperium, the Grey Knights helped them do all that and plotted the assassination of a Lord Inquisitor. The Space Wolves did a bunch of bad things too but they also acted to protect humans and in self defence. Everyone involved is in the grey. Except for Angrons lot and the Guard. They seem pretty clear cut as bad and good respectively.
pm713 wrote: Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
What part of "Russ did the exact same thing" don't you understand? If you class Magnus as a traitor for breaking the ruling at Nikea, then Russ is as well, along with Khan and Sanguinius. The fact that Magnus broke it "worse" than the others is irrelevant.
The inquisition work with the full authority of the emperor. Defying the inquisition IS defying the emperor directly. The wolves defied the emperor and the Imperium itself when they refused to submit to the inquisition. They even fought back and killed loyal imperial subjects. The only time the 1k Sons fought and killed other imperials is when they were being directly attacked on Prospero. I still don't get why you are applying your standards of "traitor" so unevenly between the 1k Sons and the Space Wolves.
The fact of the matter is, the Thousand Sons and Magnus were loyal in heart and soul to the Imperium until the very end on Prospero. They broke rules, they did things they shouldn't have, and they ignored warnings, because they thought what they were doing was so important to the future of the Imperium that it didn't matter that they were breaking rules because it was THAT important. They were wrong, and they paid for it. But, to insist that they were anything but loyal subjects that were ultimately manipulated and tricked into betraying the Imperium does them a disservice. They were a far cry from the REAL traitors shouting "death to the false emperor" at the dropsite massacre.
The Space Marines were founded before the Imperium began by the Emperor soley to fight to safeguard humanity. Obstructing that is obstructing the Emperors goal. It's very easy to make someone out to be a Traitor in Warhammer. The Space Wolves acted in self defence and to protect innocent loyal subjects so that's hardly traitorly while butchering millions of innocents very much is. But that has nothing to do with Prospero.
The Thousand Sons and Magnus existed in 30k which had greatly different rules to 40k e.g. they went from crushing religion to murdering everyone not a part of it. So let's look at 30k: The Emperor decrees that in no uncertain terms psychic powers are not be used and specifically told Magnus to cut the Warp experiments and such.
Then Magnus and the Sons return to Prospero and continue doing their psychic powers. At that point they are strictly speaking, criminals but I will admit that every single Legion shares that problem by the end of the Heresy.
Then Magnus tries to contact the Emperor, makes a bargain with Tzeentch and shatters the Webway Project before running off not saying anything. So he's broken the promise he made to the Emperor in person, bargained with Chaos, directly caused a LOT of deaths and destroyed what was one of the most important things the Emperor ever tried. That's very clearly becoming a traitor as he's consorting with Chaos.
Then they have the battle of Prospero and they all go very much all in with Chaos.
Magnus and his Sons are very much criminals which is realistically fine because everyone was at that time and the rule ended up being ignored. But Magnus goes pretty quickly into Traitor grounds and his Legion follows him. The fact that most of the blame shouldn't be put on them makes it a tragic story but they're still the bad guys in it all.
Although there's a good argument that everyone who got involved was in the darker shades of grey.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.
The Grey Knights are black and white - they don't exist. You can bring up any atrocity you want commited by the Grey Knights but since a non-existent militia can't be put on trial they don't get called traitor or excommunicated, it's the same reason the Wolves never got dragged up on going to war with the Grey Knights, you can't go to war with something that doesn't exist.
The Grey Knights are black and white - they don't exist. You can bring up any atrocity you want commited by the Grey Knights but since a non-existent militia can't be put on trial they don't get called traitor or excommunicated, it's the same reason the Wolves never got dragged up on going to war with the Grey Knights, you can't go to war with something that doesn't exist.
No they absolutely are not black and white, people may not know they exist... but they are one of if not THE poster boys for shades of grey that 40k embodies, they use sorcery (banned), chaos rituals, human sacrifice, genocide etc. and they are the GOOD GUYS????... well in the context of the setting they absolutely are... its actually why I like 40k so much, there is no such thing as a proper "good guy" faction or person in the whole setting.
Skaorn wrote: Fenris swallows Odin, not the world any of the other worlds. I've seen some say the sun is eaten by Fenris, but most of the time it is the wolves Skoll and Hati, who chase the sun and moon and will eventually catch them. In the end the realms do survive with surviving gods and humans coming back to rebuild in the aftermath.
Sköll and Hati succeeds in chasing the sun and moon. Fenrir kills Odin, but Odins son Vidarr kills Fenrir by tearing his jaws apart. It is hard to translate it to SW lore, because Fenrir is a malignant creature to the Æsir. Fenrir is the son of Loki, the betrayer, killer of Baldr etc. And we know that SW characters are similar to Æsir gods (Thor and Loki atleast, but Lukas/Loki is simply a trickster in SW lore - in the mythology he is a trickster to such an extend, that he is the downfall of everything, the end of the Æsir and the world). Seems Loki represents the opportunistic/psychpatic side of humans, those that instigate things just because they are capable of it. Loki is bound to the Æsir as the blood-brother of Odin, in a poem that has been lost - which is why Odin cannot get rid of him, they’re oath-bound. It seems that initially, Loki was a helpful character.
Yes, i read more sagas than i do 40k lore
TL;DR SW lore cannot be translated to norse mythology, GW just loosely uses concepts from saga litterature.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.
Not really.
Morally, yeah the Grey Knights AND the Space Wolves are in shades of grey. The Grey Knights orchestrate mass genocide, but for the safeguarding of humanity. The Space Wolves jeopardise billions more lives to save a few thousand. They're both morally shaded.
However, you cannot say that the Grey Knight are traitors in the eyes of the Imperium for what they've done. They have Inquisitorial Mandate, they themselves have implicit support of the Emperor (being the closest things to Custodes short of the actual Custodes), and are one of the leading authorities of corruption in the Imperium. They've got every reason to do what they did and still do, and in no way can they be implicated as traitors.
The Space Wolves on the other hand, for interfering with both the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, can be suspected to be traitors to the leading figures of Imperial authority here.
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.
Not really.
Morally, yeah the Grey Knights AND the Space Wolves are in shades of grey. The Grey Knights orchestrate mass genocide, but for the safeguarding of humanity. The Space Wolves jeopardise billions more lives to save a few thousand. They're both morally shaded.
However, you cannot say that the Grey Knight are traitors in the eyes of the Imperium for what they've done. They have Inquisitorial Mandate, they themselves have implicit support of the Emperor (being the closest things to Custodes short of the actual Custodes), and are one of the leading authorities of corruption in the Imperium. They've got every reason to do what they did and still do, and in no way can they be implicated as traitors.
The Space Wolves on the other hand, for interfering with both the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, can be suspected to be traitors to the leading figures of Imperial authority here.
I am not saying that smudgey boy.
"by the rules of the Imperium" But they dont play by the rules of the imperium and the imperium at large doesnt know they exist, but by its laws and rules, they would be considered traitors, its about perspective, we as great all seeing beings looking into the 40k universe know that they are not, but we have seen what they have done and can go "damn.... good thing people dont know just how evil things have to get just to protect them"
Its the grey Knights anonymity that protects them from the over zealous Imperium that they in turn protect, if they become public knowledge all that would be seen is a grey space marine chapter that uses forbiddon tech, rituals, chaos weaponry, sorcery and they would be under extreme suspicion instantly and if their full history came out.... excomunication would be a certainty.
You dont get to murder sister of battle and use their blood in a chaos ritual and claim to be the good guys, the Imperium would only see the Heresy and not give a damn about the good that came of it, as we have seen time and time again....
pm713 wrote: Then Magnus tries to contact the Emperor, makes a bargain with Tzeentch and shatters the Webway Project before running off not saying anything. So he's broken the promise he made to the Emperor in person, bargained with Chaos, directly caused a LOT of deaths and destroyed what was one of the most important things the Emperor ever tried...
All because he was trying to do the right thing. He did all of that stuff because he genuinely thought he was helping the Imperium by doing it. That makes him guilty of being arrogant, it makes him guilty of being a fool, it makes him guilty of being taken advantage of by chaos, but it does not make him guilty of being a traitor. As I said, Magnus probably did more damage to the Imperium on ACCIDENT than any single heretic astartes ever did intentionally, including Horus. But, it still doesn't make him a traitor. What matters is intent behind the action, not the action itself.
pm713 wrote: Then they have the battle of Prospero and they all go very much all in with Chaos.
Which is where I can agree with you. At the end of the battle of Prospero, both Magnus and his legion fell to chaos, bargaining their lives for service to Tzeench.
pm713 wrote: Then Magnus tries to contact the Emperor, makes a bargain with Tzeentch and shatters the Webway Project before running off not saying anything. So he's broken the promise he made to the Emperor in person, bargained with Chaos, directly caused a LOT of deaths and destroyed what was one of the most important things the Emperor ever tried...
All because he was trying to do the right thing. He did all of that stuff because he genuinely thought he was helping the Imperium by doing it. That makes him guilty of being arrogant, it makes him guilty of being a fool, it makes him guilty of being taken advantage of by chaos, but it does not make him guilty of being a traitor. As I said, Magnus probably did more damage to the Imperium on ACCIDENT than any single heretic astartes ever did intentionally, including Horus. But, it still doesn't make him a traitor. What matters is intent behind the action, not the action itself.
pm713 wrote: Then they have the battle of Prospero and they all go very much all in with Chaos.
Which is where I can agree with you. At the end of the battle of Prospero, both Magnus and his legion fell to chaos, bargaining their lives for service to Tzeench.
I didnt get that impression from Crimson King, I got the impression that it was
Prospero -------------------------------------------------------------------------> unknown time passes on planet of sorcerors where some fall, others dont, but still not "chaos" as a legion -----------------> Chaos legion------------ Rubric
I didnt get that impression from Crimson King, I got the impression that it was
Prospero -------------------------------------------------------------------------> unknown time passes on planet of sorcerors where some fall, others dont, but still not "chaos" as a legion -----------------> Chaos legion------------ Rubric
I always thought that Magnus finally gave in and accepted Chaos into his soul and agreed to serve Tzeench in order to complete his teleportation spell, and even at that the strain of pulling it off shattered his soul. I could be wrong though.
Regardless, his legion no longer had warm and fluffy feelings toward the Imperium at that point, considering that the same Imperium basically exterminatused their home planet and tried to ruthlessly murder them all. I think it's safe to say most of them were traitors at that point or had at least renounced the Imperium, which is basically the same thing.
BrianDavion wrote: dismissing him as "not a deep thinker" I think sells Russ short. he was smarter then he let on a lotta the time
He was illiterate and proud of the fact. In his first meeting with the Lion, he slapped a book that Johnson was reading out of his hand and called him a sissy. There's also the fact that he somehow seems to think that Rune Priests aren't psykers, and was willfully disobeying the Emperor's ruling at Nikea, and yet somehow gets no flak for it. When it comes to strategy, warfare, or politics, yeah he's not a dummy, none of the primarchs are in that regard. But to claim that Russ had a hidden cerebral character or somehow had an intellectual side goes completely against the fluff written about him. I would easily call him the least intelligent of all of the primarchs.
There is no evidence that Russ is illiterate.
And he knows that Rune Priests are psykers as proven in Wolfsbane but as he himself admitted is somewhat of a hpocrite about it.
"by the rules of the Imperium" But they dont play by the rules of the imperium and the imperium at large doesnt know they exist, but by its laws and rules, they would be considered traitors, its about perspective, we as great all seeing beings looking into the 40k universe know that they are not, but we have seen what they have done and can go "damn.... good thing people dont know just how evil things have to get just to protect them"
No, they do play by the rules of the Imperium. The rules of the Imperium can effectively be summed up to "do what the Emperor tasked me to do".
For your normal civilians, that's "don't ask questions, hate Chaos, don't do anything heretical, don't use Chaos tech/Xeno-tech etc etc, do your duty to the God Emperor, etc etc"
For Grey Knights, their rules are "combat Chaos by any mean possible". Their rules and permissions are different to everyone else, and thus do not break any laws, because said laws don't apply to them.
You're mixing up MORAL greyness and LEGAL greyness. The Grey Knights are Morally Grey. No doubt about that. That's exactly what your point about perspective is in relation to, and it's right.
LEGAL greyness is different. Given how the Imperium is so seperated in terms of task and duty, there's not really much in the way of complete rules and legalities. Sure, there's some concrete ones, "serve the Emperor, abhor the alien/mutant/heretic, etc etc", but the "restriction" on using alien tech, or chaos rituals isn't an overarching rule. It's a rule which affects most of the Imperium, yes, but the Grey Knights and certain others are exempt from that rule. They have a mandate from the Emperor himself to do just that. They have the permission of the HLOT to do that. They have permission from the Inquisition to do that.
Legally, the Grey Knights are completely able to do what they do. To suggest otherwise would be nullifying the Emperor's own rules, which in turn would mean that you're breaking the LEGAL rule on "serve the Emperor".
Its the grey Knights anonymity that protects them from the over zealous Imperium that they in turn protect, if they become public knowledge all that would be seen is a grey space marine chapter that uses forbiddon tech, rituals, chaos weaponry, sorcery and they would be under extreme suspicion instantly and if their full history came out.... excomunication would be a certainty.
The Inquisition, HLOT and the Emperor know what the Grey Knights do. They are the LEGAL authority in the Imperium, and have no issue with it.
Legally, the Grey Knights have all rights to do what they do. What some jumped up planetary governor, or Space Marine Chapter Master says isn't the overriding authority on the matter. They can be MORALLY opposed to it, they can see it as morally wrong/grey, but legally, the Grey Knights are protected by the will of the Emperor himself.
You dont get to murder sister of battle and use their blood in a chaos ritual and claim to be the good guys, the Imperium would only see the Heresy and not give a damn about the good that came of it, as we have seen time and time again....
The Imperium's head of state (the Emperor/HLOT/Inquisition) support the Grey Knights and give them the authority to do exactly what they do. It can't be heresy if you're doing what the Emperor has told you to do.
It's why Guilliman LEGALLY isn't a heretic. He has explicit permission from the Emperor to do what he's doing. He can be called morally grey for what he's doing and done, but legally, he's indefensible. The Grey Knights are the same. They have authority from the Emperor to do what they do, and the governing body of the Imperium support this authority. Whatever anyone else says isn't the law.
You're confusing the general populace of the Imperium with the governing body of it. The governing body are the ones who make the laws and rules. They're fine with it. The general masses? They don't make the rules. Whatever issue they would have is a moral one, not a legal one.
It's the same as a search warrant.
I can't break into someone's house and search their possessions legally.
A police officer, with a warrant to do so granted by the government, can break into a house and search their possessions.
According to you, that police officer is breaking the law. That's clearly not true.
Now take this back to 40k.
I, as a hypothetical Space Marine Captain or Imperial Guard commander, can't dabble in Chaos/Xeno-Tech legally.
A Grey Knight Captain, with the warrant to do so granted by the Emperor, can dabble in Chaos/Xeno-Tech legally.
Your point about claiming to be the "good guys" is mixing up the definitions of "good" and implying that following the rules is something only good people do.
No-one's saying the Grey Knights are GOOD. Good is a moral construct, and as I said above, the Grey Knights are morally grey. That's true.
However, the Grey Knights are most certainly LAWFUL. They're following the rules that they have been allowed to follow by the Emperor.
The people who do kick up a fuss about what the Grey Knights do are often the kinds of people who are more morally centred and less lawfully centred - ie the Space Wolves.
Or, to put in D&D alignment terms:
Grey Knights - Lawful Neutral
Space Wolves - Neutral/Chaotic Good
Formosa wrote: And he’d be correct in that assessment, thankfully they go a way to resolve that plot problem in wolfsbane.
I really don't buy the whole "power of Fenris" angle. A psyker is a psyker, no matter which matrix through which you draw the power it still comes from the warp.
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pm713 wrote: It's a matter of scale. Russ and the others had relatively few psykers. The Thousand Sons were all doing psyker experiments immediately after Nikea while everyone else only picked it back up in the battles of the Heresy.
To claim that Magnus is a traitor for breaking a rule, but Russ is not a traitor because he somehow "didn't break it as badly" is really stretching.
Breaking rules and going against the Imperium for a GOOD reason doesn't make you a traitor. The space wolves even do it when they defy the inquisition 10,000 years later and start that whole spat where a lot of people end up dying. I would never think to say that the Space Wolves were somehow "traitors" because of that. The problem was is that Magnus thought he had a good reason, and he didn't, and through that error he ended up screwing up a lot of things and ended up LOOKING like a traitor even though he was still loyal in spirit.
It would be accurate to say that Magnus did more damage to the Imperium accidentally as a loyalist than most chaos space marine warbands could ever hope to accomplish fighting with all of their might for centuries. But traitor he was not, until right at the very end.
Breaking the Emperor's direct instructions very much make you a traitor. That's not how it works. If someone murdered Malcador "for a good reason" they'd still be classed as a traitor. Magnus was told something by the Emperor and he just immediately did the opposite. The only way you can argue he isn't a traitor is by arguing that criminal is different. Magnus was a traitor a fair while before the end.
That's a massive oversimplification of what happened as well. I could just as easily argue that the Inquisition or Grey Knights were traitors.
Something you are missing here PM, by the rules of the Imperium, the actions of the Grey knights and some inquisitors/factions of the inquisition... are traitors, Grey Knights commit atrocities that would have them excomunicated for mass murder of innocents and Heresy for using chaos rituals and artefacts to fight chaos, both get a solid pass though secrecy or remit, 40k is not black and white.
Not really.
Morally, yeah the Grey Knights AND the Space Wolves are in shades of grey. The Grey Knights orchestrate mass genocide, but for the safeguarding of humanity. The Space Wolves jeopardise billions more lives to save a few thousand. They're both morally shaded.
However, you cannot say that the Grey Knight are traitors in the eyes of the Imperium for what they've done. They have Inquisitorial Mandate, they themselves have implicit support of the Emperor (being the closest things to Custodes short of the actual Custodes), and are one of the leading authorities of corruption in the Imperium. They've got every reason to do what they did and still do, and in no way can they be implicated as traitors.
The Space Wolves on the other hand, for interfering with both the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, can be suspected to be traitors to the leading figures of Imperial authority here.
Plotting to assassinate an Inquisitor sounds like a traitors plan to me.
Well, lets also not forget, in the Space Wolves eyes, they are not obligated to be loyal to the High Lords of Terra, the Inquisition, or even the Imperium. They swore loyalty to The Emperor and Leman Russ and as far as they are concerned they will act in their name as they see fit.
pm713 wrote: Plotting to assassinate an Inquisitor sounds like a traitors plan to me.
Firstly, Formosa never mentions this. Formosa seems to imply that the main "traitor" thing the GK do is kill Imperial civilians, Sisters, and use Chaos rituals - which is well within their authority to do.
Secondly, if that Inquisitor is deemed a threat to the Imperium, then the Grey Knights tie with the Inquisitor in authority. At this point, it becomes might makes right, and the Inquisitor is probably going to be dead.
It's the same way conflict in the Inquisition itself is solved. Both factions have their authority provided by the Rosette, but they need to be able to convince others, sometimes with force, that they are correct.
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BaconCatBug wrote: Well, lets also not forget, in the Space Wolves eyes, they are not obligated to be loyal to the High Lords of Terra, the Inquisition, or even the Imperium. They swore loyalty to The Emperor and Leman Russ and as far as they are concerned they will act in their name as they see fit.
The HLOT are treated as the voice of the Emperor. Guilliman is now the Regent of the Imperium. They all have the same authority as the Emperor, and if the Space Wolves don't respect that, then the Inquisition and HLOT have every right to sanction them.
However, enforcing that is the hard part.*
*It doesn't help the Space Wolves have some of the thickest 40k plot armour that renders them immune from any kind of repercussion for their blatant disregard of Imperial authority.
If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.
Northern85Star wrote: If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.
What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.
Northern85Star wrote: If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.
That's not correct. The existence of the Space Wolves predates Russ. They were always loyal to the Emperor and then to their Primarch as well. They follow their honour system which is loyalty to their Lord, Chapter Master, Primarch and Emperor.
Northern85Star wrote: If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.
What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.
The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.
Northern85Star wrote: If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.
What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.
The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.
It considers "unsanctioned" mutants a crime. Sanctioned mutants like Navigators, certain psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and suchlike are fine.
godking wrote: There is no evidence that Russ is illiterate.
And he knows that Rune Priests are psykers as proven in Wolfsbane but as he himself admitted is somewhat of a hpocrite about it.
If I'm remembering correctly, Russ flat out tells the Lion he can't read. I mean, I suppose you can make the argument he is just talking gak and playing the whole "I'm a barbarian, ooga booga" angle to lull people into underestimating him, but how do you know he isn't telling the truth?
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.
I'm with you Smudge, I wouldn't call the space wolves traitors, because they are still loyal to the Imperium in their mind and beliefs and are doing what THEY think is right and to the benefit of mankind. However, to claim that the 1k Sons were traitors (pre heresy) for doing the same thing, but that the Space Wolves are somehow different is ridiculous.
HLOT = Inquisition = Emperor... the HLOT and Inquistion speak with the authority of the emperor himself because they have been mandated to in the emperor's absence. Power struggles among the inquisiton and HLOT are might makes right, but anyone below them definitely doesn't have a right to argue.
Northern85Star wrote: If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.
What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.
The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.
It considers "unsanctioned" mutants a crime. Sanctioned mutants like Navigators, certain psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and suchlike are fine.
That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.
pm713 wrote: That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.
If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.
Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?
Now Nikaea is only applied selectively to groups/institutions the Imperium wants to persecute while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and pretends they don't break it themselves.
pm713 wrote: That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.
If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.
Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?
And? The Emperor protects and killing the dirty mutants will let him give alternative transport. You can't say Imperial radicals are being illogical because they aren't going to go along with it. Plus the Emperor was planning to make them redundant and probably kill them off afterwards.
The story of the Emperor can be summed up as "The Emperor made a mistake. To fix it he proceeded to make much bigger and more serious mistakes." The Black Templar follow it. Some others probably do as well. No it highlights my point about Imperial Law being all over the place. The Edict became ignored because psykers were needed in the Heresy so the only people who got punished were the 1K Sons who were just insane with their powers. Plus their whole mutation and Chaos deals didn't help.
And? The Emperor protects and killing the dirty mutants will let him give alternative transport. You can't say Imperial radicals are being illogical because they aren't going to go along with it. Plus the Emperor was planning to make them redundant and probably kill them off afterwards.
The story of the Emperor can be summed up as "The Emperor made a mistake. To fix it he proceeded to make much bigger and more serious mistakes." The Black Templar follow it. Some others probably do as well. No it highlights my point about Imperial Law being all over the place. The Edict became ignored because psykers were needed in the Heresy so the only people who got punished were the 1K Sons who were just insane with their powers. Plus their whole mutation and Chaos deals didn't help.
As I've said, I completely agree with you. I do not think the space wolves are traitors for defying the inquisition. Imperial law is a patchwork mess of conflicting rulings that are applied unevenly (kind of like IRL).
However to claim that the (pre heresy) 1k Sons were traitors for violating the ruling at Nikaea ignores the fact that pretty much every Imperial institution also does the same thing (with the exception of fringe groups like the BT). To claim that any group are traitors for simply violating rules is utterly ridiculous.
The true measure for deciding someone is a traitor or if they are loyal is their intentions. Are they fighting for the Imperium, are they doing what they are doing for the benefit of mankind? If yes, they are loyal, however misguided their actions might be. If they are fighting for themselves, fighting to increase their own power or that of chaos? They are traitors. You could actually technically make an argument that modern Dark Angels are actually traitors because they have killed loyal Imperials to protect their chapter's secrets, which is to the detriment of the Imperium as a whole to purely serve their own self interest.
This is different to the Grey Knights whose "crimes" are done purely to combat chaos and keep the Imperium safe. Again, it is about intent.
Northern85Star wrote: If my understanding is correct, then SW operates according to their own hierachy with the strongest on top. SW became loyal when they realised the Emperor was stronger than Russ. If imperial law makes someone regent, then that is not what will make the SW respecr him as such - he must prove himself.
What the Space Wolves believe isn't the same as Imperial Law.
The law also considers mutation a crime. Yet there are mutants abound in powerful places.
It considers "unsanctioned" mutants a crime. Sanctioned mutants like Navigators, certain psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and suchlike are fine.
That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.
It's not a matter of debate. Official Imperial law supports the existence of these sanctioned abhumans.
If there's a fringe group out there which wants them dead, they're not representing the official Imperial policy.
The Edict of Nikaea was, to my knowledge, overruled when Guilliman became Lord Commander of the Imperium after the Heresy. We know that he gave the order to remove it after the Battle of Calth, and I imagine he'd give the same order when he commanded the Imperium. Before anyone says "that's not the Emperor though so it doesn't count as official", Guilliman was acting with all powers of the Emperor. He had authority to do so.
Yes, the Imperium has some contradictory laws, and there is often certain rules in one place that contradict others. However, the OFFICIAL stance, which is the one that is used for the sake of these "higher up" politics (ie, between Sector Governors, Chapter Masters, Inquisitors, HLOT, etc etc) is the one that matters.
Northern85Star wrote:Not to mention SW using xenos in their forces (sentient/semi-sentient xeno wolves of Fenris, ie fenrisian wolves, thunderwolves etc)
The Emperor sanctioned that. He didn't sanction Wulfen.
To my understanding this is not true. The wulfen are a result of the flaws of space wolf DNA triggering out of control mutations due to being exposed to uncontrolled warp energy.
And? The Emperor protects and killing the dirty mutants will let him give alternative transport. You can't say Imperial radicals are being illogical because they aren't going to go along with it. Plus the Emperor was planning to make them redundant and probably kill them off afterwards.
The story of the Emperor can be summed up as "The Emperor made a mistake. To fix it he proceeded to make much bigger and more serious mistakes." The Black Templar follow it. Some others probably do as well. No it highlights my point about Imperial Law being all over the place. The Edict became ignored because psykers were needed in the Heresy so the only people who got punished were the 1K Sons who were just insane with their powers. Plus their whole mutation and Chaos deals didn't help.
As I've said, I completely agree with you. I do not think the space wolves are traitors for defying the inquisition. Imperial law is a patchwork mess of conflicting rulings that are applied unevenly (kind of like IRL).
However to claim that the (pre heresy) 1k Sons were traitors for violating the ruling at Nikaea ignores the fact that pretty much every Imperial institution also does the same thing (with the exception of fringe groups like the BT). To claim that any group are traitors for simply violating rules is utterly ridiculous.
The true measure for deciding someone is a traitor or if they are loyal is their intentions. Are they fighting for the Imperium, are they doing what they are doing for the benefit of mankind? If yes, they are loyal, however misguided their actions might be. If they are fighting for themselves, fighting to increase their own power or that of chaos? They are traitors. You could actually technically make an argument that modern Dark Angels are actually traitors because they have killed loyal Imperials to protect their chapter's secrets, which is to the detriment of the Imperium as a whole to purely serve their own self interest.
This is different to the Grey Knights whose "crimes" are done purely to combat chaos and keep the Imperium safe. Again, it is about intent.
Saying the 1k Sons were Traitors over Nikaea = All the Legions are is gross simplification. In all the other Legions the Librarians were a small minority who did stop their use of powers until they were fighting demons and other Marines. The Sons had EVERYONE using psychic powers immediately without any kind of mitigating factor as well as the fact that they were making deals with Chaos. They were mutating into mutant monsters they used their powers so much. The fact that they meant well doesn't excuse them and I don't see why you think it does. The Thousands Sons Legion are all traitors because they were all chill with Chaos and using their powers to the point of mutation. Other Legions had individual traitors who got forgiven for it because of the circumstances and bit of luck.
There's a different between traitor and chaos you know. Traitors are basically the criminals of the Imperium which includes people like Lorgar who went all in on Chaos but also people like the Blood Knights who are renegades but consider themselves loyal.
The Inner Circle do what they do with the sincere belief that it's for the best for the Imperium. They're still guilty enough to be labelled traitors even if they'd argue against it. Like the Heresy Thousand Sons.
The Grey Knights planned to kill an Inquisitor who had no sign of corruption. That could make the ones involved traitors. The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.
You sure? I thought it was a side effect of the Canis Helix.
If it was sanctioned, then how come the Space Wolves' made the decision to hide their Wulfen before any other Imperial body could get them?
Yes. Who designed and implemented the Canis Helix? The Emperor. Creating and using something and then banning it would be pretty backwards.
Because the Imperium in M41 has a load of backwards beliefs and laws. The Wulfen would get seen as horrible mutants by things like the Inquisition who then bring more trouble down on the Wolves plus they're pretty scared/ashamed of them in general. The Imperium would also punish a world for declaring it's belief that the Emperor isn't a god because that goes against the Ecclesiarchy. Which is exactly the opposite of the Emperor's Imperial Truth.
pm713 wrote:The Grey Knights planned to kill an Inquisitor who had no sign of corruption. That could make the ones involved traitors. The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.
The Grey Knights planned to do it because the Inquisitor himself was overstepping over what he could enforce and justify. Given that the Grey Knights have the authority to do so, that's fine.
The Grey Knights are one of the few Space Marine Chapters that do get to rule-break, mostly because those rules simply don't apply to the Grey Knights. You're holding them to a standard that they're not supposed to be held to.
You sure? I thought it was a side effect of the Canis Helix.
If it was sanctioned, then how come the Space Wolves' made the decision to hide their Wulfen before any other Imperial body could get them?
Yes. Who designed and implemented the Canis Helix? The Emperor. Creating and using something and then banning it would be pretty backwards.
The Canis Helix was designed by the Emperor, but the Curse of the Wulfen is a mutation of that. It's not indicated to be an intentional effect.
Similar instances of this are the Red Thirst of the Blood Angels - Sanguinius strongly believed that the Emperor would not approve - and yet the Emperor created that geneseed. It it logical, then, to assume that there are flaws in the geneseed of various Chapters that the Emperor did not expect or plan for.
So yeah, sure, the Emperor created their geneseed, but I don't see where it suggests the Wulfen were intentional.
Because the Imperium in M41 has a load of backwards beliefs and laws. The Wulfen would get seen as horrible mutants by things like the Inquisition who then bring more trouble down on the Wolves plus they're pretty scared/ashamed of them in general. The Imperium would also punish a world for declaring it's belief that the Emperor isn't a god because that goes against the Ecclesiarchy. Which is exactly the opposite of the Emperor's Imperial Truth.
However, LEGALLY, the Inquisition are the authority in this matter. If they say so, it is law.
Plus, the Imperium doesn't always punish worlds that don't see the Emperor as a God. The Ecclesiarchy might, but it is not a unanimous law in the Imperium that he is worshipped as a god. Again, as I said, some laws don't apply to certain people - worshipping the Emperor as a god does not apply to the Legiones Astartes, Custodes, or even the Inquisition, I believe. The Mechanicum have alternative views too. Sure, the Ecclesiarchy can try and enforce the belief on these groups, creating a "might makes right" situation, but legally, they are not required to believe in the Emperor's divinity.
In all the other Legions the Librarians were a small minority who did stop their use of powers until they were fighting demons and other Marines. The Sons had EVERYONE using psychic powers immediately without any kind of mitigating factor as well as the fact that they were making deals with Chaos. They were mutating into mutant monsters they used their powers so much.
IT. DOESN'T. MATTER. How many times do I have to say it? The fact that the Thousand sons were entirely a psychic legion and doing crazy warp stuff, I agree is breaking the edict at Nikea. The fact that the Space Wolves continued to use rune priests, is also breaking the edict at Nikea. THEY ARE JUST AS BAD AS EACH OTHER. The fact that one is a more blatant violation then another is IRRELEVANT, a broken rule is a broken rule. A person who murders one person, and a person who murders 12 are BOTH murderers.
pm713 wrote: The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.
Including Space Wolves.
Your mentality seems to be "Well the Thousand Sons are traitors because the story says they are." Without doing much critical thinking about WHY.
In all the other Legions the Librarians were a small minority who did stop their use of powers until they were fighting demons and other Marines. The Sons had EVERYONE using psychic powers immediately without any kind of mitigating factor as well as the fact that they were making deals with Chaos. They were mutating into mutant monsters they used their powers so much.
IT. DOESN'T. MATTER. How many times do I have to say it? The fact that the Thousand sons were entirely a psychic legion and doing crazy warp stuff, I agree is breaking the edict at Nikea. The fact that the Space Wolves continued to use rune priests, is also breaking the edict at Nikea. THEY ARE JUST AS BAD AS EACH OTHER. The fact that one is a more blatant violation then another is IRRELEVANT, a broken rule is a broken rule. A person who murders one person, and a person who murders 12 are BOTH murderers.
pm713 wrote: The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.
Including Space Wolves.
Your mentality seems to be "Well the Thousand Sons are traitors because the story says they are." Without doing much critical thinking about WHY.
They aren't at all. There's a huge difference between some people using Warp powers safely enough and USING CHAOS AND DEMONS AND DIRECTLY BARGAINING WITH TZEENTCH. That's a ridiculous comparison. One person killed someone who was trying to kill them and the other launched nuclear weapons onto a whole continent for the lolz.
Did I say the Wolves don't get a pass on some things because Marines? It's not uncommon.
You seem to be so mired in the idea that the Thousand Sons are innocent you ignore everything else. They dealt with Chaos, thought they knew so much better than everyone they caused the deaths of millions and destroyed the future of humanity and put spies everywhere. But because they meant well it was okay? They thought they knew best so it's all fine right?
You seem to be so mired in the idea that the Thousand Sons are innocent you ignore everything else. They dealt with Chaos, thought they knew so much better than everyone they caused the deaths of millions and destroyed the future of humanity and put spies everywhere. But because they meant well it was okay? They thought they knew best so it's all fine right?
They dealt with chaos because they felt that it was the only way to save themselves, they caused millions of deaths and destroyed the future of humanity on ACCIDENT, they put spies everywhere because they (correctly) thought that the other legions would turn on them at the first opportunity.
Have you even read A Thousand Sons or Crimson King?
pm713 wrote:The Grey Knights planned to kill an Inquisitor who had no sign of corruption. That could make the ones involved traitors. The rest of it they get a magic pass on much like a lot of Space Marines do with their rule breaking.
The Grey Knights planned to do it because the Inquisitor himself was overstepping over what he could enforce and justify. Given that the Grey Knights have the authority to do so, that's fine.
The Grey Knights are one of the few Space Marine Chapters that do get to rule-break, mostly because those rules simply don't apply to the Grey Knights. You're holding them to a standard that they're not supposed to be held to.
You sure? I thought it was a side effect of the Canis Helix.
If it was sanctioned, then how come the Space Wolves' made the decision to hide their Wulfen before any other Imperial body could get them?
Yes. Who designed and implemented the Canis Helix? The Emperor. Creating and using something and then banning it would be pretty backwards.
The Canis Helix was designed by the Emperor, but the Curse of the Wulfen is a mutation of that. It's not indicated to be an intentional effect.
Similar instances of this are the Red Thirst of the Blood Angels - Sanguinius strongly believed that the Emperor would not approve - and yet the Emperor created that geneseed. It it logical, then, to assume that there are flaws in the geneseed of various Chapters that the Emperor did not expect or plan for.
So yeah, sure, the Emperor created their geneseed, but I don't see where it suggests the Wulfen were intentional.
Because the Imperium in M41 has a load of backwards beliefs and laws. The Wulfen would get seen as horrible mutants by things like the Inquisition who then bring more trouble down on the Wolves plus they're pretty scared/ashamed of them in general. The Imperium would also punish a world for declaring it's belief that the Emperor isn't a god because that goes against the Ecclesiarchy. Which is exactly the opposite of the Emperor's Imperial Truth.
However, LEGALLY, the Inquisition are the authority in this matter. If they say so, it is law.
Plus, the Imperium doesn't always punish worlds that don't see the Emperor as a God. The Ecclesiarchy might, but it is not a unanimous law in the Imperium that he is worshipped as a god. Again, as I said, some laws don't apply to certain people - worshipping the Emperor as a god does not apply to the Legiones Astartes, Custodes, or even the Inquisition, I believe. The Mechanicum have alternative views too. Sure, the Ecclesiarchy can try and enforce the belief on these groups, creating a "might makes right" situation, but legally, they are not required to believe in the Emperor's divinity.
Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.
The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?
The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.
You seem to be so mired in the idea that the Thousand Sons are innocent you ignore everything else. They dealt with Chaos, thought they knew so much better than everyone they caused the deaths of millions and destroyed the future of humanity and put spies everywhere. But because they meant well it was okay? They thought they knew best so it's all fine right?
They dealt with chaos because they felt that it was the only way to save themselves, they caused millions of deaths and destroyed the future of humanity on ACCIDENT, they put spies everywhere because they (correctly) thought that the other legions would turn on them at the first opportunity.
Have you even read A Thousand Sons or Crimson King?
No. Magnus dealt with Chaos because he couldn't be bothered using a ship. They used Chaos to stop their flesh change. They could have simply stopped using their psychic powers but no they should deal with Chaos instead. WHAT?! They did it by mistake so it's okay? Hey guys, we caused a demon incursion but it's fine it was an accident. Maybe people turned on them because they were treacherous and arrogant people who spied on everyone.
Yes. Have you? You don't seem very up to date on how the Thousand Sons did things.
No. Magnus dealt with Chaos because he couldn't be bothered using a ship. They used Chaos to stop their flesh change. They could have simply stopped using their psychic powers but no they should deal with Chaos instead. WHAT?! They did it by mistake so it's okay? Hey guys, we caused a demon incursion but it's fine it was an accident. Maybe people turned on them because they were treacherous and arrogant people who spied on everyone.
Yes. Have you? You don't seem very up to date on how the Thousand Sons did things.
If you are talking about Magnus sending the psychic message to the emperor, there was no time for a ship to fly to Terra. Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal ASAP and not risk interception or that the message wouldn't reach the emperor, he also didn't know who to trust. That really sounds like the actions of a traitor right?
A more accurate analogy would be a man who accidentally launches a whole bunch of ICBMs onto a continent and kills millions of people in a well intentioned effort to help vs a man who intentionally murders one person. I'd take the idiot over the murderer any day.
pm713 wrote: Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.
How would they have authority over the Custodes? The Custodes don't answer to the Inquisition. They are seperate from any outside authority, save the Emperor himself.
The Grey Knights have the political clout to remove an Inquisitor if they overstep the mark. The Grey Knights agreed with killing the civilians, but didn't agree with getting brought to a war with the Wolves. They would rather dispose the Inquisitor under the charge of inciting strife within the Imperium.
However, the Wolves played their hand first.
The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?
How is it different?
Blood Angel geneseed isn't indentical. No geneseed is identical, hence how they can be identified. They had a genetic mutation, same as the Canis Helix's mutation in the Wolves. So, if the Emperor engineered these genetic flaws, how come Sanguinius was so paranoid about it?
If we're looking at the benefits of these mutations, the Blood Angel ones make them resistant to pain, stronger, faster - and yet they're shunned. The Thousand Sons mutations that made them turn into monsters gave them massive physical buffs. They were seen as undesirable.
Why are all the others accidents or mistakes, but the Wulfen are this ideal form? If they WERE the ideal form, then why didn't the Canis Helix just turn them into Wulfen straight away?
It's more logical to assume that, like the Red Thirst, the Curse of the Wulfen (hell it says CURSE in the name) is a mistake, an unforseen flaw in the Space Wolf physiology.
The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.
The Inquisition isn't the Lawmaker. It IS the Law. They have EVERY right to claim authority, granted by their Inquisitorial Rosette.
The Administratum governs and ensures that the Imperium stays together and supplies itself. It administrates. It doesn't make all the rules. Sure, it might enforce some rules on certain worlds, but it does not create rules. This is done by the HLOT, of which only one member is a representative of the Administratum. However, the Inquisition are exempt from literally every rule, because they're the Inquisition, and they have the approval of the Emperor to do what they do.
The only thing stopping them is "might makes right". Legally, the Inquisition is above everyone, barring the few select groups (Custodes, Grey Knights, Mechanicus) that it does not hold dominion over.
No. Magnus dealt with Chaos because he couldn't be bothered using a ship. They used Chaos to stop their flesh change. They could have simply stopped using their psychic powers but no they should deal with Chaos instead. WHAT?! They did it by mistake so it's okay? Hey guys, we caused a demon incursion but it's fine it was an accident. Maybe people turned on them because they were treacherous and arrogant people who spied on everyone.
Yes. Have you? You don't seem very up to date on how the Thousand Sons did things.
If you are talking about Magnus sending the psychic message to the emperor, there was no time for a ship to fly to Terra. Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal ASAP and not risk interception or that the message wouldn't reach the emperor, he also didn't know who to trust. That really sounds like the actions of a traitor right?
A more accurate analogy would be a man who accidentally launches a whole bunch of ICBMs onto a continent and kills millions of people in a well intentioned effort to help vs a man who intentionally murders one person. I'd take the idiot over the murderer any day.[/quote
There was in fact plenty of time for that considering how early the Burning of Prospero happened and that Magnus can use his psychic powers to make the trip faster. He just thought he knew better. What's more he could have tried the telepathy, reached the Webway and then taken a ship. But he knows best and just shattered it. Sounds like the actions of an idiot and a traitor.
pm713 wrote: Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.
How would they have authority over the Custodes? The Custodes don't answer to the Inquisition. They are seperate from any outside authority, save the Emperor himself.
The Grey Knights have the political clout to remove an Inquisitor if they overstep the mark. The Grey Knights agreed with killing the civilians, but didn't agree with getting brought to a war with the Wolves. They would rather dispose the Inquisitor under the charge of inciting strife within the Imperium.
However, the Wolves played their hand first.
The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?
How is it different?
Blood Angel geneseed isn't indentical. No geneseed is identical, hence how they can be identified. They had a genetic mutation, same as the Canis Helix's mutation in the Wolves. So, if the Emperor engineered these genetic flaws, how come Sanguinius was so paranoid about it?
If we're looking at the benefits of these mutations, the Blood Angel ones make them resistant to pain, stronger, faster - and yet they're shunned. The Thousand Sons mutations that made them turn into monsters gave them massive physical buffs. They were seen as undesirable.
Why are all the others accidents or mistakes, but the Wulfen are this ideal form? If they WERE the ideal form, then why didn't the Canis Helix just turn them into Wulfen straight away?
It's more logical to assume that, like the Red Thirst, the Curse of the Wulfen (hell it says CURSE in the name) is a mistake, an unforseen flaw in the Space Wolf physiology.
The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.
The Inquisition isn't the Lawmaker. It IS the Law. They have EVERY right to claim authority, granted by their Inquisitorial Rosette.
The Administratum governs and ensures that the Imperium stays together and supplies itself. It administrates. It doesn't make all the rules. Sure, it might enforce some rules on certain worlds, but it does not create rules. This is done by the HLOT, of which only one member is a representative of the Administratum. However, the Inquisition are exempt from literally every rule, because they're the Inquisition, and they have the approval of the Emperor to do what they do.
The only thing stopping them is "might makes right". Legally, the Inquisition is above everyone, barring the few select groups (Custodes, Grey Knights, Mechanicus) that it does not hold dominion over.
Also, "the Space Wolves know more" - how?
They don't and I haven't said the Grey Knights over the Custodes. What I was saying is that the Grey Knights don't have authority over the Inquisition. Nobody does except for Custodes in the Palace.
Exempt or not the Inquisition doesn't MAKE the rules and they don't have any claim to be the authority on gene seed.
The Space Wolf geneseed has the Canis Helix an additional component. All other gene-seeds have the same components. They give the same changes as each other. The Canis Helix was made, all the others weren't they're just mutations on the original hence why they're a potential problem. The Helix isn't because it isn't actually a mutation it was designed to be put there. It isn't a permanent change because while they make for good berserker fighters against enemies they aren't good soldiers. Braindead idiots are better than Marines in the way that they aren't smart enough to rebel but they're worse soldiers overall. Wulfen are the same - Better at a specific thing but worse overall.
It's called Curse because the individual undergoing the change effectively dies and it's pretty horrid morally but the Emperor has no reason to care about that. Agree to disagree. I think it's more logical something like that that comes from a specific geneseed component that was specially made for a task makes more sense rather than YET ANOTHER horrible mistake by the Emperor.
I think it's fair to say that after 10'000 years of experience the Wolves have more knowledge about their geneseed than the Inquisition.
pm713 wrote: There was in fact plenty of time for that considering how early the Burning of Prospero happened and that Magnus can use his psychic powers to make the trip faster. He just thought he knew better. What's more he could have tried the telepathy, reached the Webway and then taken a ship. But he knows best and just shattered it. Sounds like the actions of an idiot and a traitor.
I'm usually pretty open to different people's interpretations of the lore, considering that most things are so subjective. The worst I will do is try to argue my side.
However, at this point I seriously have to call into question your knowledge of the lore and your bias. You are just flat out wrong. You are ascribing powers to Magnus beyond what he actually had. There was no way he could have just "teleported" to Terra considering that Terra had one of the most powerful psychic defense networks in existence. The idea that Magnus could somehow access the webway that he had no knowledge existed because the Emperor kept it a secret from him is bunk. You cannot use psychic powers to "speed up" warp travel unless you can affect the currents of the warp itself, which is outside of even the Emperor's capabilities. There was no way he could have just snapped his fingers and made the wolves stop the burning of Prospero once Russ decided he wanted blood.
Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal, and there was only one way that Magnus knew of that could both reach the emperor on time, and have 0 chance of being intercepted, and that was to contact the emperor directly. He knew he was breaking the rules, but he thought the very fate of the Imperium itself was at stake. So he broke the rules, fully willing to accept the punishment that came with it so long as the Emperor was warned about Horus. Little did Magnus know something MUCH worse would happen.
I'm going to end the discussion here because it seems that our interpretations of the lore are completely incompatible with each other. For what it is worth, I'm not even a thousand sons fanboy, my favorite traitors are actually the IW. But you seem to have a massive bias towards the space wolves.
pm713 wrote: There was in fact plenty of time for that considering how early the Burning of Prospero happened and that Magnus can use his psychic powers to make the trip faster. He just thought he knew better. What's more he could have tried the telepathy, reached the Webway and then taken a ship. But he knows best and just shattered it. Sounds like the actions of an idiot and a traitor.
I'm usually pretty open to different people's interpretations of the lore, considering that most things are so subjective. The worst I will do is try to argue my side.
However, at this point I seriously have to call into question your knowledge of the lore and your bias. You are just flat out wrong. You are ascribing powers to Magnus beyond what he actually had. There was no way he could have just "teleported" to Terra considering that Terra had one of the most powerful psychic defense networks in existence. The idea that Magnus could somehow access the webway that he had no knowledge existed because the Emperor kept it a secret from him is bunk. You cannot use psychic powers to "speed up" warp travel unless you can affect the currents of the warp itself, which is outside of even the Emperor's capabilities. There was no way he could have just snapped his fingers and made the wolves stop the burning of Prospero once Russ decided he wanted blood.
Magnus needed to let the emperor know about Horus' betrayal, and there was only one way that Magnus knew of that could both reach the emperor on time, and have 0 chance of being intercepted, and that was to contact the emperor directly. He knew he was breaking the rules, but he thought the very fate of the Imperium itself was at stake. So he broke the rules, fully willing to accept the punishment that came with it so long as the Emperor was warned about Horus. Little did Magnus know something MUCH worse would happen.
I'm going to end the discussion here because it seems that our interpretations of the lore are completely incompatible with each other. For what it is worth, I'm not even a thousand sons fanboy, my favorite traitors are actually the IW. But you seem to have a massive bias towards the space wolves.
I didn't say he could teleport? Except for the part he did where he sent his mind there.
Firstly Magnus did know about the Webway because he was investigating it and built a miniature version on Prospero. Second breaking it exactly what he did. He broke the WEBWAY project when he broke into it with Tzeentch's help.
Third you can use psychic powers to make your Warp travel by altering the currents around you and Thousand Son sorcerors do it prior to the Battle of the Fang. Fourth Magnus could have stopped the fighting from even happening by surrendering himself instead of sulking.
Almost everything you've said is plain wrong and the rest is debatable. The discussion is best ended because you have no understanding of the lore or reading comprehension.
pm713 wrote: Firstly Magnus did know about the Webway because he was investigating it and built a miniature version on Prospero.
But he didn't know the emperor was working on the human webway project, he had no way of knowing. He didn't know there was a way through the webway to Terra.
pm713 wrote: Second breaking it exactly what he did. He broke the WEBWAY project when he broke into it with Tzeentch's help.
On ACCIDENT. He didn't say to himself "hurr durr I'm going to purposely break my father's 1000 year project and destroy humanity's last, best hope against chaos". It was more like "Dad I really need to talk to you! Horus has turned traitor and he's taken half the legions and... oh no, what did I do?"
pm713 wrote: Third you can use psychic powers to make your Warp travel by altering the currents around you and Thousand Son sorcerors do it prior to the Battle of the Fang.
No, you cannot. The only things powerful enough to alter the currents of the warp are the chaos gods themselves. The battle of the fang takes place long after the thousand sons fall to chaos, and they were able to do this because they beseeched their patron deity for help. If every joe blow sorcerer was able to speed up or slow down warp travel, then why are there constantly examples in the fluff of psykers (even powerful ones like Malcador) saying stuff like "it's up to the currents of the warp when X fleet will arrive" etc.
pm713 wrote: Fourth Magnus could have stopped the fighting from even happening by surrendering himself instead of sulking.
He had no idea that Russ was willing to accept surrender because he never got Russ' surrender demand. Russ for his part, never tried to communicate with Magnus directly, he came in guns blazing and slaughtered EVERYONE, including civilians. Magnus thought that Russ was there to kill him and burn his world no questions end of story, and so it was his way of "repentance" to not fight back and to help the space wolves by disabling Prospero's defenses and shielding the Space Wolf fleet from detection. Sure, he was "sulking" too, but wouldn't you feel bad if you had just accidentally broke something your father had been working on for the past 1,000 years?
pm713 wrote: Almost everything you've said is plain wrong and the rest is debatable. The discussion is best ended because you have no understanding of the lore or reading comprehension.
And you are intentionally misrepresenting the fluff and saying things that flat out aren't true.
SeanDavid1991 wrote: This is designed how do you think the primarchs would re-act to the current state of their chapters upon their return.
Any Primarch can return in this scenario, even Ferrus Manus if you wish. This is purely a what if, and how would they react.
I believe if/when the Lion comes back he would be satisfied that all the successor Chapters have Grand Masters but Azrael of the DA is the Supreme Grand Master. Ultimately all successor chapters still report to the DA which can;t be said for other legions.... er I mean Chapters.
I believe the Lion would be quick to judge the Primaris after hearing they are approved by Bobby and field them on a big mission with himself so he could test their might personally. But Overall aside from the whole Luther thing I wreckon he;d be pretty happy with the DA and their continued hunt for the fallen.
I know Leman Russ would be happy with his legion, because Njal/Bjorns force they took to save the 13th showed how they still fight identically to the old guard, and they are steeped in tradition anyweays. He'd be pissed off with all the stuff they see as sacred though like spear of Russ, the Wolves treated it like the dead sea scrolls and banished Ragnar for losing it, wanting to kill him and when Ragnar told that he lost the spear to Torvald, Torvald swore and said "He was constantly losing the damn thing. Do you recall the time he drank all that stormwine on Sirenia and tried to throw the bloody spear at the moon? Took us days to find it afterwords. Truth be told he hated that big boar sticker'.
w1zard if you're going to start claiming I'm lying about things just because I disagree with you then you need to chill. Take a breath, learn the lore and take another breath.
SeanDavid1991 wrote: This is designed how do you think the primarchs would re-act to the current state of their chapters upon their return.
Any Primarch can return in this scenario, even Ferrus Manus if you wish. This is purely a what if, and how would they react.
I believe if/when the Lion comes back he would be satisfied that all the successor Chapters have Grand Masters but Azrael of the DA is the Supreme Grand Master. Ultimately all successor chapters still report to the DA which can;t be said for other legions.... er I mean Chapters.
I believe the Lion would be quick to judge the Primaris after hearing they are approved by Bobby and field them on a big mission with himself so he could test their might personally. But Overall aside from the whole Luther thing I wreckon he;d be pretty happy with the DA and their continued hunt for the fallen.
I know Leman Russ would be happy with his legion, because Njal/Bjorns force they took to save the 13th showed how they still fight identically to the old guard, and they are steeped in tradition anyweays. He'd be pissed off with all the stuff they see as sacred though like spear of Russ, the Wolves treated it like the dead sea scrolls and banished Ragnar for losing it, wanting to kill him and when Ragnar told that he lost the spear to Torvald, Torvald swore and said "He was constantly losing the damn thing. Do you recall the time he drank all that stormwine on Sirenia and tried to throw the bloody spear at the moon? Took us days to find it afterwords. Truth be told he hated that big boar sticker'.
it's a little more complicated then that. Wolfsbane dicusses his relationship with the spear a fair bit
Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?
Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.
pm713 wrote: Do they? Why do the Grey Knights have authority over the Inquisition in that way? That would make them above even the Custodes. I think the standard for them is that they can do almost whatever they like to fight Chaos. That doesn't mean they can go around killing Inquisitors.
How would they have authority over the Custodes? The Custodes don't answer to the Inquisition. They are seperate from any outside authority, save the Emperor himself.
The Grey Knights have the political clout to remove an Inquisitor if they overstep the mark. The Grey Knights agreed with killing the civilians, but didn't agree with getting brought to a war with the Wolves. They would rather dispose the Inquisitor under the charge of inciting strife within the Imperium.
However, the Wolves played their hand first.
The Red Thirst is different. The Blood Angels geneseed is identical to that of other Marines. The Wulfen come from the added Canix Helix which was made entirely by the Emperor. Why wouldn't he have made Wulfen? In duress the victim gets much stronger, more resistant to Chaos and still gets to be controlled. It's pretty good for fighting Chaos and their servants. So why not make it?
How is it different?
Blood Angel geneseed isn't indentical. No geneseed is identical, hence how they can be identified. They had a genetic mutation, same as the Canis Helix's mutation in the Wolves. So, if the Emperor engineered these genetic flaws, how come Sanguinius was so paranoid about it?
If we're looking at the benefits of these mutations, the Blood Angel ones make them resistant to pain, stronger, faster - and yet they're shunned. The Thousand Sons mutations that made them turn into monsters gave them massive physical buffs. They were seen as undesirable.
Why are all the others accidents or mistakes, but the Wulfen are this ideal form? If they WERE the ideal form, then why didn't the Canis Helix just turn them into Wulfen straight away?
It's more logical to assume that, like the Red Thirst, the Curse of the Wulfen (hell it says CURSE in the name) is a mistake, an unforseen flaw in the Space Wolf physiology.
The Inquisition isn't at all the lawmaker. That's the job of the government as in the Administratum. The Inquisition has no right to claim they're the authority. Both the Space Wolves and the Mechanicus know more.
The Inquisition isn't the Lawmaker. It IS the Law. They have EVERY right to claim authority, granted by their Inquisitorial Rosette.
The Administratum governs and ensures that the Imperium stays together and supplies itself. It administrates. It doesn't make all the rules. Sure, it might enforce some rules on certain worlds, but it does not create rules. This is done by the HLOT, of which only one member is a representative of the Administratum. However, the Inquisition are exempt from literally every rule, because they're the Inquisition, and they have the approval of the Emperor to do what they do.
The only thing stopping them is "might makes right". Legally, the Inquisition is above everyone, barring the few select groups (Custodes, Grey Knights, Mechanicus) that it does not hold dominion over.
Also, "the Space Wolves know more" - how?
They don't and I haven't said the Grey Knights over the Custodes. What I was saying is that the Grey Knights don't have authority over the Inquisition. Nobody does except for Custodes in the Palace.
My mistake. However, the Grey Knights DO have the power and the political clout to resist the Inquisition, and mete punishment if necessary. Again, they can't ORDER the Inquisition, but they can certainly hold power over them.
Exempt or not the Inquisition doesn't MAKE the rules and they don't have any claim to be the authority on gene seed.
You mirepresent my argument.
I'm not talking about authority on geneseed. I'm talking about having authority IN GENERAL, and not being beholden to the same laws that govern other Imperial branches.
The Inquisition don't make the rules, but what they do and can get others to do is beyond those rules - granted by their Rosette.
The Space Wolf geneseed has the Canis Helix an additional component. All other gene-seeds have the same components. They give the same changes as each other. The Canis Helix was made, all the others weren't they're just mutations on the original hence why they're a potential problem. The Helix isn't because it isn't actually a mutation it was designed to be put there. It isn't a permanent change because while they make for good berserker fighters against enemies they aren't good soldiers. Braindead idiots are better than Marines in the way that they aren't smart enough to rebel but they're worse soldiers overall. Wulfen are the same - Better at a specific thing but worse overall.
Incorrect. Every Legion's geneseed differed somewhat. They all have the same few base ones, but some add to this, mutate, differ. The Canis Helix isn't the issue. The Helix WAS meant to be there. However, I see no evidence to suggest that it was primarily intended to mutate and create Wulfen.
Unless you can show me that the Wulfen were an intentional mutation, I have to disagree.
It's called Curse because the individual undergoing the change effectively dies and it's pretty horrid morally but the Emperor has no reason to care about that. Agree to disagree. I think it's more logical something like that that comes from a specific geneseed component that was specially made for a task makes more sense rather than YET ANOTHER horrible mistake by the Emperor.
Again, I think it's more likely "yet another horrible mistake", because clearly the Emperor is prone to these kinds of errors.
I think it's fair to say that after 10'000 years of experience the Wolves have more knowledge about their geneseed than the Inquisition.
I'm not questioning that. You miss my argument.
My main argument is that legally, the Inquisition and Grey Knight can absolutely do their Chaos rituals and teamkilling and killing civilians, and they are still Legally Right. They're not Legally Grey - they're Morally Grey.
You only brought in Wulfen when I said, in a completely unrelated situation, that the Space Wolves hadn't been sanctioned the use of them. That was never my main argument, but I can see you're mixing them together.
pm713 wrote: Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?
Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.
That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear
It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.
Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.
pm713 wrote: Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?
Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.
That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear
It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.
Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.
That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?
I'm betting vulkan would act exactly as he did in if the emperor had a text to speech device just a little less comic and more serious, with the whole "the imperium has enough generals" spin to it.
pm713 wrote: Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?
Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.
That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear
It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.
Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.
That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?
proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.
I think Dorn would be pleased with his Chapter and their Successors. They hold pretty strongly to his tenets. I think the whole deal about what happened in the War of the Beast would just vindicate him in his idea that breaking the Legions was ill-advised. He would probably also be pleased that not only was the Last Wall Protocol necessary, but that it was executed very well and that the Chapters followed it to the best of their ability.
I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.
It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think Dorn would be pleased with his Chapter and their Successors. They hold pretty strongly to his tenets. I think the whole deal about what happened in the War of the Beast would just vindicate him in his idea that breaking the Legions was ill-advised. He would probably also be pleased that not only was the Last Wall Protocol necessary, but that it was executed very well and that the Chapters followed it to the best of their ability.
If anyone has the right to say "I told you so", it would be Dorn.
Formosa wrote: I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.
It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.
Then why didn't the emperor only apply the edict at Nikaea to the thousand sons legion only, since they were the troublemakers? Or apply an edict that harshly limits psykers but doesn't eliminate them completely. Issuing a blanket ban, and then ignoring the infractions of a few favored legions just reeks of favoritism and makes no sense. Frankly I understand the traitor legions' grievances in that regard. The emperor really screwed over some legions while seeming to favor others.
Formosa wrote: I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.
It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.
Then why didn't the emperor only apply the edict at Nikaea to the thousand sons legion only, since they were the troublemakers? Or apply an edict that harshly limits psykers but doesn't eliminate them completely. Issuing a blanket ban, and then ignoring the infractions of a few favored legions just reeks of favoritism and makes no sense. Frankly I understand the traitor legions' grievances in that regard. The emperor really screwed over some legions while seeming to favor others.
That’s a complicated answer , right so the edict was planned before they found mortarion, we know this as mortarion is directly told by malcador, now this may seem innocent on the face of it, even reasonable, they wanted to curtail the power of psykers within the legions.
Then first lord of terra came out and gave a whole new slant on the motives behind certain decisions that the emperor and malcador made, the legions were eventually to be disposed of, curtailing the use of psykers would mean that it would eventually be easier to kill them off as in the long run... the psykers would have been mostly gone through casualties (assuming the heresy did not happen).
Now back to mortarion, he refused to take charge of his legion, malcador persuaded him to do so by promising that the edict would happen and the psykers he so hated would be dealt with.
So with all of that in mind, it seems clear to me that the thousand sons were set up to fail, but not Magnus, Magnus had a purpose and this is why the order was to bring him back to terra, while the thousand sons were disposable and rightly so in the context of eventually purging the legions.
Now here’s the other problem, Magnus made a deal, not sold his soul, with tzeench for knowledge on how to stop the flesh change, I get the impression that this information was a deception, tzeench just stopped the flesh change and Magnus believed it was the info he gained that did, just as planned, that’s just conjecture though, so after this deal Magnus was tainted but still in control of his actions, some time later Magnus met shaytan, a hideously powerful deamon that out matched even Magnus in the psychic department, without giving too much away Magnus had this deamon bound to his book, the one he varies everywhere, further tainting himself, and on and on Magnus went, constantly ignoring his fathers warnings, and eventually this led to the censure of the thousand sons.
That’s why the “magnus Did nothing wrong” crowd is so so wrong, Magnus though his own actions and choices caused his own downfall
pm713 wrote: Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?
Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.
That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear
It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.
Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.
That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?
proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.
No I mean why didn't Russ know. If he disliked the spear because of it's weird powers but started to like it after finding how what exactly that just sounds silly to me because why wouldn't the Emperor tell him about it. It seems the Emperor said "here's a spear" when he should have said "here's a spear, this is all the special stuff it has". It comes across as the Emperor being stupid AGAIN.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Formosa wrote: I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.
It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.
I'm guessing it still doesn't mention why the Rune Priests have their whole "channel their power through Fenris" thing?
BrianDavion wrote: Sure if Dorn opposed it for logical reasons. I suspect he didn't, Dorn's just stubnbron and resists change.
He did oppose it for logical reasons. Chaos was retreating and rather than pursue, Guilliman wanted to reorganize and repaint the Legions.
Considering that Guilliman and his Ultramarines were one of the main forces in the pursuing of the Traitor forces (The Scouring), he was hardly opposed to pushing the attack.
He only set up the breaking of the legions after the Chaos forces had fled into the Eye.
pm713 wrote: Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?
Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.
That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear
It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.
Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.
That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?
proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.
No I mean why didn't Russ know. If he disliked the spear because of it's weird powers but started to like it after finding how what exactly that just sounds silly to me because why wouldn't the Emperor tell him about it. It seems the Emperor said "here's a spear" when he should have said "here's a spear, this is all the special stuff it has". It comes across as the Emperor being stupid AGAIN.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Formosa wrote: I have to agree that Russ would be fairly happy with his chapter should he return, after reading wolfbane it shows the reason why wolves get that special snowflake status, malcador and by extension the emperor, the wolves infractions were simply ignored, the fact they still used psykers, while hypocritical, was known by malcador, dorm etc. And they still got a free pass, not because of “derp” reasons but because of Russ himself, he was always a wild one and flaunted the rules, exactly as intended, it’s also why the white scars got a free pass for their psykers.
It was explained that both knew they had hard limits, and would not cross them, where as the thousand sons believed that they had no limits, a central tenet of the legion, this is also a central tenet of the setting, unchecked power ends badly for most involved.
I'm guessing it still doesn't mention why the Rune Priests have their whole "channel their power through Fenris" thing?
It does and in quite a good way, essentially they know they they don’t actually literally draw power from fenris but the warp, it’s a euphemism for using the teachings they learned as goti and the limits that imposed, so when they say “we draw out power from fenris” they mean “we channel the warp according to the teachings of our society, so know we have hard limits”
It’s in the same manner they use the term “wryd” they mean fate, but their society calls it something else and has a belief structure built around it.
pm713 wrote: I'm glad they finally addressed that. Although I wish they'd gone with my guess even though it made less sense.
What was your guess out of interest pm?
I was hoping Fenris was meant to be an Exodite world so it would have a world spirit. So Rune Priests could basically use it as a filter to get the Chaos out of their Warp powers. That way they're being a bit more literal about the power of Fenris and you can tie it into where the various monsters of Fenris come from.
I was hoping Fenris was meant to be an Exodite world so it would have a world spirit. So Rune Priests could basically use it as a filter to get the Chaos out of their Warp powers. That way they're being a bit more literal about the power of Fenris and you can tie it into where the various monsters of Fenris come from.
pm713 wrote: I'm glad they finally addressed that. Although I wish they'd gone with my guess even though it made less sense.
What was your guess out of interest pm?
I was hoping Fenris was meant to be an Exodite world so it would have a world spirit. So Rune Priests could basically use it as a filter to get the Chaos out of their Warp powers. That way they're being a bit more literal about the power of Fenris and you can tie it into where the various monsters of Fenris come from.
That’s quite close to what I had hoped it was, but I went darker, I wanted it to be a low level deamon world like caliban.
Formosa wrote: That’s why the “magnus Did nothing wrong” crowd is so so wrong, Magnus though his own actions and choices caused his own downfall
I never claimed Magnus did nothing wrong. He did a lot of things wrong. What I am claiming is that the things he did wrong, he did because he genuinely thought he was doing right. Had the emperor not been trying to childishly pretend the chaos gods didn't exist, and actually give Magnus reasons why his warnings should be heeded instead of "do as I say, not as I do" then maybe the fall of the 1k Sons could have been avoided.
Telling Magnus not to delve into warpcraft, and only giving the reason "because I said so" when he asks why is like telling an alcoholic he can't drink and responding "because I said so" whilst chugging a whole bottle of whisky and burping in his face instead of responding with something reasonable.
Magnus genuinely believed that everything he did was helping his legion, and humanity as a whole. None of the mistakes he made, he made out of malice or hatred toward the Imperium or the emperor. Even after he broke the webway, all he wanted to do was help and lessen the inevitable fallout that his actions caused. THAT is why his fall is so tragic. It was only at the end on Prospero that he finally turned. Seeing his world burnt to the ground around him and seeing his legion and his people slaughtered mercilessly by the wolves was finally the straw that broke the camel's back after all the years of being badmouthed by the other legions and told he was a freak by his brothers.
Also... the emperor should have expected the legions to turn at some point. Did he really think that he could treat them like disposable meatbags, play favorites, and intentionally try to kill them off and they would just lay down and take it? Hell, normal humans wouldn't stand for that let alone astartes. Did he really think that he could plot to have the legions disposed of at the end of the crusade and not have a least a slight chance of them finding out beforehand and causing trouble?
pm713 wrote: That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.
If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.
Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?
Now Nikaea is only applied selectively to groups/institutions the Imperium wants to persecute while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and pretends they don't break it themselves.
The Emperor planned to do away with the Navigators had he succeeded in creating his webway. Which is one of the underlying plot points in one of the white scars heresy novels.
pm713 wrote: That's a matter of debate. Some people don't think that way hence why you have things like groups that want to kill of the Navigators. There's also things like the Edict of Nikaea which bans psykers, was never rescinded but there's barely one Chapter that follows that. The Imperium's laws are so contradictory and convoluted in general from world to world you can't really claim that the Space Wolves system of command is violating it.
If all of the navigators were killed off the Imperium would die out because nobody would be able to navigate the warp. Navigators are sanctioned, and even the emperor made use of them.
Nikaea was one of the Emperor's worst missteps IMO. He completely overreacted and made a foolish ruling in an effort to castigate Magnus for pushing further then he should have in his studies of the warp. Everyone realized how utterly stupid the ruling was and nobody followed it, including it's most vociferous original supporters (Russ). But then again I suppose that makes everyone traitors?
Now Nikaea is only applied selectively to groups/institutions the Imperium wants to persecute while everyone else twiddles their thumbs and pretends they don't break it themselves.
The Emperor planned to do away with the Navigators had he succeeded in creating his webway. Which is one of the underlying plot points in one of the white scars heresy novels.
I am aware of this. It still doesn't change the fact that the Imperium would die out if all of the navigators were killed off because the webway project was never finished. pm713 was referring to groups in both m30 and m41 who want to kill off the navigators independant of the knowledge that the emperor was scheming to have them killed off anyway after the webway project was finished.
pm713 wrote: Admittedly I haven't been able to read Wolfsbane but my understanding was he only kept it out of politeness until he found out what was special about it. Then he started to like it, right?
Which struck me as really silly and a downgrade of lore but whatever.
That's not accurate at all. He never liked the weapon for a host of reasons, one was partly cultural spears just aren't seen as a "warriors weapon" on Fenris. but a big big part of it was a feeling of ill omen surrounding the weapon. Russ felt the spear had a "Wyrd" and it made him uncomfortable. This was only highlighted b y a Omen shortly after he meets Horus that tells him Horus will die to the spear
It's only during the progress of the book that he basicly comes to the realiziation the Wyrd of the spear is that it has the emperor's power invested in it, and it's fate is to be used to fight horus and actually hurt him. (which is why it made him uncomfortable, he knew from just a gut feeling it had some fate attached to it that was not pleasent.
Apparently when he tried to get rid of the spear all those times it was also a test to PROVE that the weapon was fated for something as well.
That's decent enough. But it has the same problem as a lot of Emperor related things do - If it has the Emperor's power in it and is that good why didn't it get mentioned in the first place?
proably cause by m 41 it was forgotten knowledge, only Russ really knew this.
No I mean why didn't Russ know. If he disliked the spear because of it's weird powers but started to like it after finding how what exactly that just sounds silly to me because why wouldn't the Emperor tell him about it. It seems the Emperor said "here's a spear" when he should have said "here's a spear, this is all the special stuff it has". It comes across as the Emperor being stupid AGAIN.
proably because telling Russ "this spear will be used to kill your brother when he's hopped up on chaos juice" would go over poorly. the emperor knew russ would know what to do with it when the time came. And Russ NEVER liked the spear. He accepted it would be needed, but he never LIKED it. Acceptance =/ liking it.
Formosa wrote: That’s why the “magnus Did nothing wrong” crowd is so so wrong, Magnus though his own actions and choices caused his own downfall
I never claimed Magnus did nothing wrong. He did a lot of things wrong. What I am claiming is that the things he did wrong, he did because he genuinely thought he was doing right. Had the emperor not been trying to childishly pretend the chaos gods didn't exist, and actually give Magnus reasons why his warnings should be heeded instead of "do as I say, not as I do" then maybe the fall of the 1k Sons could have been avoided.
Telling Magnus not to delve into warpcraft, and only giving the reason "because I said so" when he asks why is like telling an alcoholic he can't drink and responding "because I said so" whilst chugging a whole bottle of whisky and burping in his face instead of responding with something reasonable.
Magnus genuinely believed that everything he did was helping his legion, and humanity as a whole. None of the mistakes he made, he made out of malice or hatred toward the Imperium or the emperor. Even after he broke the webway, all he wanted to do was help and lessen the inevitable fallout that his actions caused. THAT is why his fall is so tragic. It was only at the end on Prospero that he finally turned. Seeing his world burnt to the ground around him and seeing his legion and his people slaughtered mercilessly by the wolves was finally the straw that broke the camel's back after all the years of being badmouthed by the other legions and told he was a freak by his brothers.
Also... the emperor should have expected the legions to turn at some point. Did he really think that he could treat them like disposable meatbags, play favorites, and intentionally try to kill them off and they would just lay down and take it? Hell, normal humans wouldn't stand for that let alone astartes. Did he really think that he could plot to have the legions disposed of at the end of the crusade and not have a least a slight chance of them finding out beforehand and causing trouble?
Why are you replying to me? What has any of this got to do with my conversion with PM?
But to answer your questions:
The emperor did expect them to turn, that was the plan (REF: first lord of terra)
Yes, he did think he could treat them like disposable meat bags, because that’s what they were designed to eventually be, with 1 or 2 exceptions.
(Ref: master of mankind)
Yes he internally chose favourites to stir up animosity (ref: master of mankind, wolfsbane, first lord of terra, primarchs perturabo, leman russ)
No he did not expect them to lye down and take its, he expected them to massively deplete themselves in a war and then wipe out the survivors with the custodes (ref: first lord of terra)
Conjecture: he expected a lot of “normal” humanity to be wiped out too, so that the cream of the crop would wait it out in the webway and recolonise a safe galaxy that can no longer threaten them, clearly didn’t play out that way because of chaos.
Yes, by that point certain legions would have already been wiped out for “reasons”certain primarchs would be dead for “reasons” then all he needed to do was set them upon each other and wait it out (ref: first lord of terra, master of mankind)
The emperor did expect them to turn, that was the plan (REF: first lord of terra)
Yes, he did think he could treat them like disposable meat bags, because that’s what they were designed to eventually be, with 1 or 2 exceptions.
(Ref: master of mankind)
Yes he internally chose favourites to stir up animosity (ref: master of mankind, wolfsbane, first lord of terra, primarchs perturabo, leman russ)
No he did not expect them to lye down and take its, he expected them to massively deplete themselves in a war and then wipe out the survivors with the custodes (ref: first lord of terra)
Conjecture: he expected a lot of “normal” humanity to be wiped out too, so that the cream of the crop would wait it out in the webway and recolonise a safe galaxy that can no longer threaten them, clearly didn’t play out that way because of chaos.
Yes, by that point certain legions would have already been wiped out for “reasons”certain primarchs would be dead for “reasons” then all he needed to do was set them upon each other and wait it out (ref: first lord of terra, master of mankind)
I haven't read any lore published after early 2017, been busy with school.
If the emperor really expected all of that, then it certainly paints the traitors in a much more sympathetic light. How can you treat your soldiers like that and NOT have them hate you?
