Possible spoilers for "A Thousand Sons" ahead, but I think most people already know the story.

So I finished the book "A Thousand Sons" a few weeks ago. It was fun, but there was something nagging me after I had finished. When the Thousand Sons were first founded, they began to discover their powers. However, the flesh-change started when they started using their powers more often. One would think to tie the two together and stop using their powers in order to protect themselves from the flesh-change, but they didn't. They kept on using their powers.

They were also very arrogant about using their powers. They just kept pushing the boundaries heedless of any warnings, believing themselves masters of the "Great Ocean" and thus superior to everyone else.

Also Magnus' insistence on using the ritual to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal doesn't make sense to me. The Emperor had just forbade him from using his powers. Did he really expect to convince the Emperor of Horus' betrayal by showing up by using the very powers the Emperor told him not to use? I would have traveled by ship if it were me, or, if there wasn't any way to warn him otherwise, I would have prepared to defend both Prospero and Earth.

Also, what was the whole thing with Magnus' pity party and actively trying to ensure his legion got slaughtered? If he messed up, why couldn't he just own up? Send himself on a ship to intercept the incoming fleet and immediately surrender?

I don't know, maybe I'm trying too hard to make sense of a fictional universe, and I agree the Thousand Sons did not deserve to be slaughtered by the Wolves, but I can't help but think that much of what happened to them was their own fault.

"It's complicated". The punishment they received wasn't necessarily befitting of the crime, but they weren't exactly innocent - anyone who is familiar with old school chaos lore will see that they are under the sway of Tzeentch from the very beginning of the book - the number 9 figures prominently for a reason, and even Magnus ritual to warm the Emperor has clear links to Chaos (pay attention to whats linked to the numbers 6,7, and 8). As for why Magnus didn't just take a ship, it's because it would have taken too long for the message to arrive.

They're not innocent at all unless you start ignoring things. Magnus wrecked a lot of important stuff, dealt with Chaos and had what was not unlike a tantrum about it.

Whether they deserved what actually happened is debatable but they definitely brought it on their own heads.

pm713 wrote:
They're not innocent at all unless you start ignoring things. Magnus wrecked a lot of important stuff, dealt with Chaos and had what was not unlike a tantrum about it.

Whether they deserved what actually happened is debatable but they definitely brought it on their own heads.

This.
Had Magnus not 'done a deal' with chaos the legion would have died from the flesh change (or been exterminated). But it was still giving Tzeench a foot in the door, and a bad move.
Had Magnus not used the ritual to try and send his warning, it wouldn't have arrived in time. But in reality it led to the Webway gate breach and it essentially cost the Emperor a clean victory by preventing the Custodian Guard and Ordo Sinister participating in the siege.

Tzeench did its level best to avoid giving Magnus any better options. But he did know he was doing wrong - especially using sorcery after Nikea

No, they didn't deserve to be destroyed but they were not innocent in any way shape or form. Magnus sold his soul to chaos during the beginning of the great crusade, because his legion was barely a legion, so many of them had gone through mutation and they couldn't fight, so Magnus bargained with chaos to save them. Throughout the crusade they used sorcery and were in league with daemons using them as familiars, even when they were told to stop using sorcery at the council of nikaea, they kept doing it, to the point of destroying the webway project, crippling the 10 thousand destroying the whispering tower and millions of people with the psychic back lash and as many going mad and making the Emperor having to sit on the golden throne, which he initially planned for Magnus to sit on and now its failing so mankind will be fethed, which they wouldn't have been if they had the webway.

Arcanis161 wrote:
So I finished the book "A Thousand Sons" a few weeks ago. It was fun, but there was something nagging me after I had finished. When the Thousand Sons were first founded, they began to discover their powers. However, the flesh-change started when they started using their powers more often. One would think to tie the two together and stop using their powers in order to protect themselves from the flesh-change, but they didn't. They kept on using their powers.

Telling the 1k sons to not use their powers is like telling the word bearers not to have faith, or telling the wolves they can't drink. Goes totally against the ethos and fighting style of the legion. I agree they should have toned it down a bit and been more cautious, but they didn't.

Arcanis161 wrote:
They were also very arrogant about using their powers. They just kept pushing the boundaries heedless of any warnings, believing themselves masters of the "Great Ocean" and thus superior to everyone else.

100% agree. Arrogant and foolish.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also Magnus' insistence on using the ritual to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal doesn't make sense to me. The Emperor had just forbade him from using his powers. Did he really expect to convince the Emperor of Horus' betrayal by showing up by using the very powers the Emperor told him not to use?

Yes. Because the news was so momentus that it shouldn't have mattered how Magnus delivered it. Magnus believed the very fate of the Imperium was at stake and he needed to warn the Emperor. He knew it wasn't allowed, and he knew he was probably going to get punished for it, but he was willing to take that punishment if it meant the emperor knew what was going on with Horus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
I would have traveled by ship if it were me, or, if there wasn't any way to warn him otherwise, I would have prepared to defend both Prospero and Earth.

There was not enough time to travel all the way to Terra in person. There would also be a risk of interception. Remember, at this point, Magnus only knew that Horus had turned traitor and that an unknown number of legions had followed suit. He didn't know who to trust. For all he knew, his legion was the only loyalist one left. Sending a psychic message would be the fastest and most reliable way to contact the emperor, and he didn't care if he got executed for it, because the Imperium was more important.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also, what was the whole thing with Magnus' pity party and actively trying to ensure his legion got slaughtered? If he messed up, why couldn't he just own up? Send himself on a ship to intercept the incoming fleet and immediately surrender?

Because there was no reasoning with the wolves. Russ believed that Magnus had turned down his offer of surrender and wasn't going to come quietly, so he came into the system guns blazing and not asking questions. Let me put it to you this way, if a Navy Seal team burst into your house and started shooting everyone (men, women, and children alike), do you seriously think shouting at them that you give up and waving your arms above your head is going to do anything?

Magnus also knew that there was no way in hell he could convince his legion to lay down their arms and surrender peacefully. Their animosity toward the wolves was too strong. He knew they would fight even if he ordered them not to. So instead he masked the Space Wolf fleet from divination/sensors and deactivated the defense grid in order to lessen the Space Wolf casualties. He didn't want any more astartes to die over his mistakes then absolutely had to. And yes, he was having a pity party... Imagine accidentally destroying something your father worked over 1,000 years to create, and possibly even dooming the entire human race because of it. I'd be having a pity party too if I were Magnus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
...but I can't help but think that much of what happened to them was their own fault.

Oh, definitely. But those mistakes that they made were entirely understandable... entirely human. They put spies in the other legions because they didn't trust them, they felt like the other legions considered them dangerous mutants and would turn on them at the first opportunity, and they were RIGHT. They pushed so hard into warpcraft because they didn't realize the true dangers behind the warp and the nature of chaos (remember, the emperor tried to pretend like the chaos gods didn't exist). They disregarded the warnings of others because they thought that they were simply the words of naysayers and philistines. They didn't want to give up using their powers after Nikaea because it would mean giving up everything that made them unique and gave their lives meaning. Imagine for a moment the emperor ordering Angron to never wield his axe again in combat and to go live on some dirtball backwater and become a farmer. The 1k sons lived for sorcery, BREATHED for it. Frankly the emperor should have known simply ordering them to stop wouldn't have done it.

Imagine if you will a young boy who is just a little bit different then his peers. Every day his peers sneer at him, bully him, call him a monster. Every day this boy drifts further and further away, distancing himself from others because he thinks everyone hates him, and purposely starts lashing out at even the people who are trying to help. Then one day he finally snaps and murders another boy in a fit of rage. Who is at fault? The peers who ostracized the boy for being a monster or the boy for proving them right?

Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

w1zard wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
So I finished the book "A Thousand Sons" a few weeks ago. It was fun, but there was something nagging me after I had finished. When the Thousand Sons were first founded, they began to discover their powers. However, the flesh-change started when they started using their powers more often. One would think to tie the two together and stop using their powers in order to protect themselves from the flesh-change, but they didn't. They kept on using their powers.

Telling the 1k sons to not use their powers is like telling the word bearers not to have faith, or telling the wolves they can't drink. Goes totally against the ethos and fighting style of the legion. I agree they should have toned it down a bit and been more cautious, but they didn't.

Arcanis161 wrote:
They were also very arrogant about using their powers. They just kept pushing the boundaries heedless of any warnings, believing themselves masters of the "Great Ocean" and thus superior to everyone else.

100% agree. Arrogant and foolish.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also Magnus' insistence on using the ritual to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal doesn't make sense to me. The Emperor had just forbade him from using his powers. Did he really expect to convince the Emperor of Horus' betrayal by showing up by using the very powers the Emperor told him not to use?

Yes. Because the news was so momentus that it shouldn't have mattered how Magnus delivered it. Magnus believed the very fate of the Imperium was at stake and he needed to warn the Emperor. He knew it wasn't allowed, and he knew he was probably going to get punished for it, but he was willing to take that punishment if it meant the emperor knew what was going on with Horus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
I would have traveled by ship if it were me, or, if there wasn't any way to warn him otherwise, I would have prepared to defend both Prospero and Earth.

There was not enough time to travel all the way to Terra in person. There would also be a risk of interception. Remember, at this point, Magnus only knew that Horus had turned traitor and that an unknown number of legions had followed suit. He didn't know who to trust. For all he knew, his legion was the only loyalist one left. Sending a psychic message would be the fastest and most reliable way to contact the emperor, and he didn't care if he got executed for it, because the Imperium was more important.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also, what was the whole thing with Magnus' pity party and actively trying to ensure his legion got slaughtered? If he messed up, why couldn't he just own up? Send himself on a ship to intercept the incoming fleet and immediately surrender?

Because there was no reasoning with the wolves. Russ believed that Magnus had turned down his offer of surrender and wasn't going to come quietly, so he came into the system guns blazing and not asking questions. Let me put it to you this way, if a Navy Seal team burst into your house and started shooting everyone (men, women, and children alike), do you seriously think shouting at them that you give up and waving your arms above your head is going to do anything?

Magnus also knew that there was no way in hell he could convince his legion to lay down their arms and surrender peacefully. Their animosity toward the wolves was too strong. He knew they would fight even if he ordered them not to. So instead he masked the Space Wolf fleet from divination/sensors and deactivated the defense grid in order to lessen the Space Wolf casualties. He didn't want any more astartes to die over his mistakes then absolutely had to. And yes, he was having a pity party... Imagine accidentally destroying something your father worked over 1,000 years to create, and possibly even dooming the entire human race because of it. I'd be having a pity party too if I were Magnus.

Arcanis161 wrote:
...but I can't help but think that much of what happened to them was their own fault.

Oh, definitely. But those mistakes that they made were entirely understandable... entirely human. They put spies in the other legions because they didn't trust them, they felt like the other legions considered them dangerous mutants and would turn on them at the first opportunity, and they were RIGHT. They pushed so hard into warpcraft because they didn't realize the true dangers behind the warp and the nature of chaos (remember, the emperor tried to pretend like the chaos gods didn't exist). They disregarded the warnings of others because they thought that they were simply the words of naysayers and philistines. They didn't want to give up using their powers after Nikaea because it would mean giving up everything that made them unique and gave their lives meaning. Imagine for a moment the emperor ordering Angron to never wield his axe again in combat and to go live on some dirtball backwater and become a farmer. The 1k sons lived for sorcery, BREATHED for it. Frankly the emperor should have known simply ordering them to stop wouldn't have done it.

Imagine if you will a young boy who is just a little bit different then his peers. Every day his peers sneer at him, bully him, call him a monster. Every day this boy drifts further and further away, distancing himself from others because he thinks everyone hates him, and purposely starts lashing out at even the people who are trying to help. Then one day he finally snaps and murders another boy in a fit of rage. Who is at fault? The peers who ostracized the boy for being a monster or the boy for proving them right?

They could use their powers, they were told to stop because they were using sorcery. Magnus never fought the Wolves because he accepted his fate and knew he had done wrong. As for not being able to use their powers, they are Astartes they needed to grow up and take responsibility for their actions and stop using sorcery, they were power hungry and refused to give up that power.

101% innocent. Pure white rabbit kind of innocent. Yup sir.

They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

However Horus implies in book 2 or 3 that Russ was sent to take Magnus back to Terra for censure but he spoke to Russ and persuaded him that wouldn't be a good idea. Implied that Horus was the one who told Russ to go in all guns blazing and kill them all. Again probably part of Tzeentch's net closing on Magnus.

If Russ had turned up on Tizca and said you done bad bro you're coming with me and you have the right to remain silent but anything you do say.... I reckon Magnus would have gone willingly and there might be 1 more loyalist chapter

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

They could use their powers, they were told to stop because they were using sorcery. Magnus never fought the Wolves because he accepted his fate and knew he had done wrong. As for not being able to use their powers, they are Astartes they needed to grow up and take responsibility for their actions and stop using sorcery, they were power hungry and refused to give up that power.

They were told to stop using ALL psychic powers after Nikaea. Imagine the emperor telling Angron he couldn't use his axe ever again and that he had to become a farmer.

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

However Horus implies in book 2 or 3 that Russ was sent to take Magnus back to Terra for censure but he spoke to Russ and persuaded him that wouldn't be a good idea. Implied that Horus was the one who told Russ to go in all guns blazing and kill them all. Again probably part of Tzeentch's net closing on Magnus.

If Russ had turned up on Tizca and said you done bad bro you're coming with me and you have the right to remain silent but anything you do say.... I reckon Magnus would have gone willingly and there might be 1 more loyalist chapter

This, right here 100%. To say they were "innocent" is wrong. They certainly did "bad" things and were arrogant and secretive. But they were utterly loyalist (as in loyal to the Imperium) right up until Prospero, and arguably didn't deserve what happened to them.

 john27 wrote:
Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

When was that?

Innocent? God no!

But who in the Heresy is 'truly innicent'? Basically no one.

They were arrogant and doomed my Magnus' hubris. Tragic, but far from innocent.

The book Thousand Sons pretty much laid why they were never innocent, to begin with.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

They could use their powers, they were told to stop because they were using sorcery. Magnus never fought the Wolves because he accepted his fate and knew he had done wrong. As for not being able to use their powers, they are Astartes they needed to grow up and take responsibility for their actions and stop using sorcery, they were power hungry and refused to give up that power.

They were told to stop using ALL psychic powers after Nikaea. Imagine the emperor telling Angron he couldn't use his axe ever again and that he had to become a farmer.

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

However Horus implies in book 2 or 3 that Russ was sent to take Magnus back to Terra for censure but he spoke to Russ and persuaded him that wouldn't be a good idea. Implied that Horus was the one who told Russ to go in all guns blazing and kill them all. Again probably part of Tzeentch's net closing on Magnus.

If Russ had turned up on Tizca and said you done bad bro you're coming with me and you have the right to remain silent but anything you do say.... I reckon Magnus would have gone willingly and there might be 1 more loyalist chapter

This, right here 100%. To say they were "innocent" is wrong. They certainly did "bad" things and were arrogant and secretive. But they were utterly loyalist (as in loyal to the Imperium) right up until Prospero, and arguably didn't deserve what happened to them.

They weren't loyal, the broke pretty much every oath they made and it didn't take them long to turn to chaos. They obviously did deserve deserve censure, just not annihilation, they joined chaos well before the Horus Heresy, but it was Horus that did that,not the Imperium. they joined chaos well before the Horus Heresy. As for Russ, he was the executioner, so an order from the warmaster to kill a legion would not be unthinkable, he'd done it two times before and the warmaster had 'all' authority when it came to the great crusade, he would have followed the order. Thousand sons players are always painting Russ out to be a bad guy because of that but Magnus himself said that Russ didn't want to do it.

Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

It's nice when you edit out parts of the story that you don't like.

Russ tried pretty hard to talk to Magnus before attacking. If Magnus had gotten off his ass he probably could've avoided it all.

The Emperor is a giant hypocrite and somewhat stupid. It's okay for the Emperor to do the deal with Chaos but if anyone else tries? Bullet to the head.

My understanding of Valdor is he was basically a fanatic who thought the Emperor was 100% great and Custodes in general have 0 flexibility.

pm713 wrote:
It's nice when you edit out parts of the story that you don't like.

Russ tried pretty hard to talk to Magnus before attacking. If Magnus had gotten off his ass he probably could've avoided it all.

The Emperor is a giant hypocrite and somewhat stupid. It's okay for the Emperor to do the deal with Chaos but if anyone else tries? Bullet to the head.

My understanding of Valdor is he was basically a fanatic who thought the Emperor was 100% great and Custodes in general have 0 flexibility.

Russ never talked to Magnus before, he talked to Horus through the spy Kasper Hawser, thinking that he was talking to Magnus.
The emperor, knew his mistake doing that, he told Magnus that 'you can never do a deal with the forces of the great ocean with losing something of yourself' So he isn't a hypocrite, he was just more experienced. If someone commits a crime and didn't think it was illegal and goes to jail it isn't exactly hypocrisy for him to tell his son not to do the same thing because you'll get banged up, and even if that wasn't the case, so what he's the Emperor of 'mankind' he can do anything and tell others not to, its do what I say not what I do, as with all emperors. You also have to remember, the emperor was not their father, he made them to fulfil a purpose, he never saw them as sons, people always moan about the emperor and how callous he can be etc. boo hoo, he exists to save humanity, not be a father to needy Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the ancient wrote:
Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

Horus absolutely told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons.

Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

pm713 wrote:
It's nice when you edit out parts of the story that you don't like.

Russ tried pretty hard to talk to Magnus before attacking. If Magnus had gotten off his ass he probably could've avoided it all.

The Emperor is a giant hypocrite and somewhat stupid. It's okay for the Emperor to do the deal with Chaos but if anyone else tries? Bullet to the head.

My understanding of Valdor is he was basically a fanatic who thought the Emperor was 100% great and Custodes in general have 0 flexibility.

Didnt Magnus pretty much kill himself to get to Terra. Russ for being the not barbarian, GW like making him out to be. It will prolly turn out to be Magnus was doing recovering from his golden thread to Terra thing, cause warp time.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Horus absolutely told Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons.

Maybe but he didnt tell Valedor. Who told Russ to do the same thing.

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

But Russ talked to some dude who he thought was a tk1 spy. So its alright.
As it is by the time the end comes around. Russ has already stolen Sangys moment. So much they write voids the rest.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

I didn't say he did.

For one he hardly warned him. He said you lose something which is how a trade works. A warning would be "The entities in the Warp are extremely clever and cunning. They'll offer you something you want but after a few years you'll lose everything."

Angron had all his family/friends killed because of the Emperor, Mortarion was made into a failure by the Emperor just upstaging him and general mistreatment and neglect.

So why is he so bad at it? He caused the civil war that crippled the Imperium forever by not bothering to interact with anyone or teach them about Chaos, he planned to exterminate a lot of them and hurl them into an endless war with the Eldar, he chose to put humanity in constant warfare because they can't coexist with anyone else due to his rule and he's on the Throne entirely because of his own actions. He could have avoided it so easily but he didn't.

scratches chin.
That quote you quoted you said he did try and talk. So you did say it.
He didnt go in guns blazing because he was let in.
Mr Im more complex than what everyone thinks. Isnt. Hes a dumb, easily lead pos.
Or hes just hiding the wolfen.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Like I said Russ did TRY to talk to Magnus and sincerely believed he was. So it's unfair to say he just went in guns blazing.

Did he know his mistake? Where does he show any acknowledgement of it?

Seeing them as tools is fine. The way he treated them is not. Considering how bad the treatment of the Primarchs was it's a miracle so many stayed loyal. The Emperor existing to save humanity is a terrible excuse. So many things he does work counter to that goal.

Russ DIDN'T talk to Magnus.

Well why would the emperor warn him if he didn't fell the consequences of doing it himself. I find it hard that he 'just' knew that. But like I said even if he didn't, so what. Apart from Lorgar, in what way did the emperor treat the Primarchs badly? Its not a terrible excuse, his whole existence was leading the Imperium, he sits on the golden throne in torture for the human race.

I didn't say he did.

For one he hardly warned him. He said you lose something which is how a trade works. A warning would be "The entities in the Warp are extremely clever and cunning. They'll offer you something you want but after a few years you'll lose everything."

Angron had all his family/friends killed because of the Emperor, Mortarion was made into a failure by the Emperor just upstaging him and general mistreatment and neglect.

So why is he so bad at it? He caused the civil war that crippled the Imperium forever by not bothering to interact with anyone or teach them about Chaos, he planned to exterminate a lot of them and hurl them into an endless war with the Eldar, he chose to put humanity in constant warfare because they can't coexist with anyone else due to his rule and he's on the Throne entirely because of his own actions. He could have avoided it so easily but he didn't.

No, read Thousand Sons, the Emperor did warn him, he said "you can never make a deal with the primordial annihilator and come out untouched" that is axiomatically a warning. I'll give you Angron and Mortarion, 3 out of 18 is not exactly good evidence. So what if he is bad at it, him being good or bad at it is completely irrelevant, he still lived for mankind, like the Emperor said, you can be omnipotent and omniscience, but you can't be omnipotent and omniscience at the same time. He knew he would lose against horus but still went to his fate and the golden throne, if he didn't do that for humanity, then who was he doing it for, hardly himself as he is tortured on the throne. The Emperor probably didn't know that chaos had plans to cause a civil war, so he wouldn't tell them about chaos. If you take the Horus Heresy out of the picture then not telling them of chaos is completely rational, especially after what he saw from the unification wars.

Ah the turn on the SM is as rushed as drokk. You might notice its only come out lately.
When the Emp cant see beyond sitting on the throne. They saw a fan theory and went with it.

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

I mean, everyone was following Tzeentch's plan from day one. The god of schemes had everyone involved including Russ and the Emperor playing exactly into his hands.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

I mean, everyone was following Tzeentch's plan from day one. The god of schemes had everyone involved including Russ and the Emperor playing exactly into his hands.

No he didn't, Tzeentch is not omnipotent, lots of his schemes fail. The only one that see's the whole future is Kairos, Tzeentch can't even see the future as clearly as Kairos. Tzeentch also has no control of the followers of the other gods, the other gods obviously through a monkey wrench in his plans.

He schemes against himself. He can't possibly not fail.

the ancient wrote:
Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

Valdor hated Magnus' guts, because when Magnus broke the webway project a lot of Custodes died holding off the daemons from getting into the Imperial Palace. For his part, I think Valdor genuinely believed Horus when Horus said he was speaking on behalf of the emperor when he ordered Russ to kill Magnus. Both Valdor and Russ hated Magnus so much that they didn't even question it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No, read Thousand Sons, the Emperor did warn him, he said "you can never make a deal with the primordial annihilator and come out untouched" that is axiomatically a warning. I'll give you Angron and Mortarion, 3 out of 18 is not exactly good evidence. So what if he is bad at it, him being good or bad at it is completely irrelevant, he still lived for mankind, like the Emperor said, you can be omnipotent and omniscience, but you can't be omnipotent and omniscience at the same time. He knew he would lose against horus but still went to his fate and the golden throne, if he didn't do that for humanity, then who was he doing it for, hardly himself as he is tortured on the throne. The Emperor probably didn't know that chaos had plans to cause a civil war, so he wouldn't tell them about chaos. If you take the Horus Heresy out of the picture then not telling them of chaos is completely rational, especially after what he saw from the unification wars.

The emperor told Magnus to stop messing around with warp magic and sorcery while still doing it himself. Magnus saw it as hypocrisy that the emperor told everyone they couldn't use psychic powers or explore sorcery when the emperor was doing sorcery experiments and mucking about with warp magic in the Imperial Palace itself. The emperor's ruling at Nikaea was very much a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing. In fact I think the emperor basically said something along the lines of "nobody else seems to be able to handle the responsibility of psychic powers except for me, Magnus is proof of that. So from now on nobody is allowed to use these powers except for me."

Magnus and the 1k Sons also didn't understand that the chaos gods or daemons were a thing. They thought that daemons were "warp beasts" and that they were simply entities that lived in the warp. They were completely oblivious to the existence of the chaos gods because the emperor was still childishly pretending they didn't exist.

w1zard wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

Valdor hated Magnus' guts, because when Magnus broke the webway project a lot of Custodes died holding off the daemons from getting into the Imperial Palace. For his part, I think Valdor genuinely believed Horus when Horus said he was speaking on behalf of the emperor when he ordered Russ to kill Magnus. Both Valdor and Russ hated Magnus so much that they didn't even question it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No, read Thousand Sons, the Emperor did warn him, he said "you can never make a deal with the primordial annihilator and come out untouched" that is axiomatically a warning. I'll give you Angron and Mortarion, 3 out of 18 is not exactly good evidence. So what if he is bad at it, him being good or bad at it is completely irrelevant, he still lived for mankind, like the Emperor said, you can be omnipotent and omniscience, but you can't be omnipotent and omniscience at the same time. He knew he would lose against horus but still went to his fate and the golden throne, if he didn't do that for humanity, then who was he doing it for, hardly himself as he is tortured on the throne. The Emperor probably didn't know that chaos had plans to cause a civil war, so he wouldn't tell them about chaos. If you take the Horus Heresy out of the picture then not telling them of chaos is completely rational, especially after what he saw from the unification wars.

The emperor told Magnus to stop messing around with warp magic and sorcery while still doing it himself. Magnus saw it as hypocrisy that the emperor told everyone they couldn't use psychic powers or explore sorcery when the emperor was doing sorcery experiments and mucking about with warp magic in the Imperial Palace itself. The emperor's ruling at Nikaea was very much a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing. In fact I think the emperor basically said something along the lines of "nobody else seems to be able to handle the responsibility of psychic powers except for me, Magnus is proof of that. So from now on nobody is allowed to use these powers except for me."

Magnus and the 1k Sons also didn't understand that the chaos gods or daemons were a thing. They thought that daemons were "warp beasts" and that they were simply entities that lived in the warp. They were completely oblivious to the existence of the chaos gods because the emperor was still childishly pretending they didn't exist.

Exactly, its 'do as I say, not as I do'. He's the Emperor, and can do what he wants, regardless of being a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite boo hoo, That's what Kings and Emperors do, they do whatever they want or need. Magnus disobeyed the Emperor simple as, he sealed his own fate for his incredible arrogance, I don't have one shred of sympathy for him.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, its 'do as I say, not as I do'. He's the Emperor, and can do what he wants, regardless of being a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite boo hoo, That's what Kings and Emperors do, they do whatever they want or need. Magnus disobeyed the Emperor simple as, he sealed his own fate for his incredible arrogance, I don't have one shred of sympathy for him.

Calm down before you cut yourself on that edge buddy.

In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, its 'do as I say, not as I do'. He's the Emperor, and can do what he wants, regardless of being a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite boo hoo, That's what Kings and Emperors do, they do whatever they want or need. Magnus disobeyed the Emperor simple as, he sealed his own fate for his incredible arrogance, I don't have one shred of sympathy for him.

Calm down before you cut yourself on that edge buddy.

In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

Any edge is just in your perception bud, I'm not angry at all, just making the point that everyone is so butthurt over the Emperor. Yes Magnus ignored was going to reap the consequences and ended up getting even worse consequences. If the king said you can't do something that he does, sure you might be warranted in doing it, but you don't have the power to do it without consequences, the Emperor does. Magnus choose to be in the Imperium and follow his Emperor, so he should have done what he was told. The Emperor gave him a legion, it wasn't his. Magnus was arrogant and power hungry and that's it. Every other librarian in every other legion apart from the Wolves stopped using their power, are they going to miss their power less than Magnus? No and they took responsibility and stoped using their powers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Any edge is just in your perception bud, I'm not angry at all, just making the point that everyone is so butthurt over the Emperor. Yes Magnus ignored was going to reap the consequences and ended up getting even worse consequences. If the king said you can't do something that he does, sure you might be warranted in doing it, but you don't have the power to do it without consequences, the Emperor does. Magnus choose to be in the Imperium and follow his Emperor, so he should have done what he was told. The Emperor gave him a legion, it wasn't his. Magnus was arrogant and power hungry and that's it. Every other librarian in every other legion apart from the Wolves stopped using their power, are they going to miss their power less than Magnus? No and they took responsibility and stoped using their powers.

If I remember correctly, the White Scars and Blood Angels pretty much ignored the verdict at Nikaea too.

Regardless, I've never argued that Magnus wasn't power hungry, or arrogant. He certainly was both of those. I have tried to argue against this notion that Magnus was a willing pawn of chaos before Prospero. He was not. In his heart and mind he was loyalist, along with his legion, up until Prospero at least.

Yes, he ignored the verdict at Nikaea and the emperor's warnings about delving into chaos, but if that is your criteria by which you judge him a traitor, then Russ, Khan, Sanguinius, and pretty much every other primarch except Dorn was a traitor as well.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

I mean, everyone was following Tzeentch's plan from day one. The god of schemes had everyone involved including Russ and the Emperor playing exactly into his hands.

No he didn't, Tzeentch is not omnipotent, lots of his schemes fail. The only one that see's the whole future is Kairos, Tzeentch can't even see the future as clearly as Kairos. Tzeentch also has no control of the followers of the other gods, the other gods obviously through a monkey wrench in his plans.

Obviously his schemes can fail, but this scheme in particular went perfectly and part of that was due to the Emperor's bad judgement at Nikaea.

Because it seems relevant from the other thread.


“That’s a complicated answer , right so the edict was planned before they found mortarion, we know this as mortarion is directly told by malcador, now this may seem innocent on the face of it, even reasonable, they wanted to curtail the power of psykers within the legions.

Then first lord of terra came out and gave a whole new slant on the motives behind certain decisions that the emperor and malcador made, the legions were eventually to be disposed of, curtailing the use of psykers would mean that it would eventually be easier to kill them off as in the long run... the psykers would have been mostly gone through casualties (assuming the heresy did not happen).

Now back to mortarion, he refused to take charge of his legion, malcador persuaded him to do so by promising that the edict would happen and the psykers he so hated would be dealt with.

So with all of that in mind, it seems clear to me that the thousand sons were set up to fail, but not Magnus, Magnus had a purpose and this is why the order was to bring him back to terra, while the thousand sons were disposable and rightly so in the context of eventually purging the legions.

Now here’s the other problem, Magnus made a deal, not sold his soul, with tzeench for knowledge on how to stop the flesh change, I get the impression that this information was a deception, tzeench just stopped the flesh change and Magnus believed it was the info he gained that did, just as planned, that’s just conjecture though, so after this deal Magnus was tainted but still in control of his actions, some time later Magnus met shaytan, a hideously powerful deamon that out matched even Magnus in the psychic department, without giving too much away Magnus had this deamon bound to his book, the one he varies everywhere, further tainting himself, and on and on Magnus went, constantly ignoring his fathers warnings, and eventually this led to the censure of the thousand sons.

That’s why the “magnus Did nothing wrong” crowd is so so wrong, Magnus though his own actions and choices caused his own downfall”

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Any edge is just in your perception bud, I'm not angry at all, just making the point that everyone is so butthurt over the Emperor. Yes Magnus ignored was going to reap the consequences and ended up getting even worse consequences. If the king said you can't do something that he does, sure you might be warranted in doing it, but you don't have the power to do it without consequences, the Emperor does. Magnus choose to be in the Imperium and follow his Emperor, so he should have done what he was told. The Emperor gave him a legion, it wasn't his. Magnus was arrogant and power hungry and that's it. Every other librarian in every other legion apart from the Wolves stopped using their power, are they going to miss their power less than Magnus? No and they took responsibility and stoped using their powers.

If I remember correctly, the White Scars and Blood Angels pretty much ignored the verdict at Nikaea too.

Regardless, I've never argued that Magnus wasn't power hungry, or arrogant. He certainly was both of those. I have tried to argue against this notion that Magnus was a willing pawn of chaos before Prospero. He was not. In his heart and mind he was loyalist, along with his legion, up until Prospero at least.

Yes, he ignored the verdict at Nikaea and the emperor's warnings about delving into chaos, but if that is your criteria by which you judge him a traitor, then Russ, Khan, Sanguinius, and pretty much every other primarch except Dorn was a traitor as well.

Not true, when you involve yourself with Chaos, you cannot take anything from them otherwise they take your sold Magnus did that and he managed to fight them but it even says in Prospero that it was a losing battle, and you are ignoring the fact that he 'turned'. I wasn't arguing that he's a traitor (which he absolutely is), he became a traitor not because he used sorcery, but because he 'turned' to chaos rather than accepting death, I'm arguing the original point that he wasn't innocent. As for the other Primarchs they started using psykers when they realised that they needed them to fight daemons, even Girlyman did but the important fact is that they didn't use sorcery, the Emperor didn't have a problem with librarians, he had a problem with sorcery, but like in Prospero burns he had to seem fair. And Magnus caused the wolves to come after him, not for ignoring the Edict, he broke the barriers to the Imperial dungeon and webway, he destroyed mankinds chances of survival without the Emperor, he destroyed the Whispering tower and millions of people on terra with his psychic backlash and fated the Emperor to sit on the golden throne, which has caused the high lords and the eccleciarchy to ruin the Imperium. That's the wolves went after him and not the other Primarchs for using librarians. Do you really think there'd be no repercussions... You cannot defend Magnus, its ludicrous and just biased because you like him.

Key point here guys for clarity, chaos is not the warp, the warp is not chaos, chaos cannot live without the warp, the warp can live without chaos.

There is a massive difference between delving too far into the warp and making a deal with the sentient warp storms that live in it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not true, when you involve yourself with Chaos, you cannot take anything from them otherwise they take your sold Magnus did that and he managed to fight them but it even says in Prospero that it was a losing battle, and you are ignoring the fact that he 'turned'. I wasn't arguing that he's a traitor (which he absolutely is), he became a traitor not because he used sorcery, but because he 'turned' to chaos rather than accepting death, I'm arguing the original point that he wasn't innocent. As for the other Primarchs they started using psykers when they realised that they needed them to fight daemons, even Girlyman did but the important fact is that they didn't use sorcery, the Emperor didn't have a problem with librarians, he had a problem with sorcery, but like in Prospero burns he had to seem fair. And Magnus caused the wolves to come after him, not for ignoring the Edict, he broke the barriers to the Imperial dungeon and webway, he destroyed mankinds chances of survival without the Emperor, he destroyed the Whispering tower and millions of people on terra with his psychic backlash and fated the Emperor to sit on the golden throne, which has caused the high lords and the eccleciarchy to ruin the Imperium. That's the wolves went after him and not the other Primarchs for using librarians. Do you really think there'd be no repercussions... You cannot defend Magnus, its ludicrous and just biased because you like him.

Yep, he did all of that. ON ACCIDENT. That is what you guys aren't getting. He was played by Tzeentch and manipulated into destroying the emperor's webway project unintentionally. He never intended to betray the Imperium and worked solely to help it up until he decided to start fighting the wolves on Prospero. Magnus wasn't even aware the webway project existed until he accidentally broke it.

You have to remember that nobody knew about daemons or the chaos gods yet. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change he merely thought he was dealing with an extremely powerful warp entity, not a literal god of lies and deception.

Let me put it this way... If a soldier in a ballistic missile command center in the U.S were to accidentally bump a row of controls and launch off a dozen nukes that wipe out the eastern seaboard of the United States and kill millions of people, he would not be a traitor. An idiot certainly, guilty of criminal negligence definitely, but it has to be INTENTIONAL for it to be treason. Magnus never INTENDED to betray or fight against the Imperium up until Prospero. The fact that he was unintentionally being manipulated into aiding chaos for a long time is irrelevant. After Prospero? Oh definitely a traitor. But before? Magnus and the 1k Sons were still loyalists. Loyalists that did more damage to the Imperium on accident then most CSM warbands could ever dream of, but still loyalists.

Just like the space marine chapters that were tricked into helping the astral claws fight against the Imperium weren't considered traitors when all was said and done. Sure, they were censured and made to perform penance crusades, but ultimately they were judged not to be traitors, just fools.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not true, when you involve yourself with Chaos, you cannot take anything from them otherwise they take your sold Magnus did that and he managed to fight them but it even says in Prospero that it was a losing battle, and you are ignoring the fact that he 'turned'. I wasn't arguing that he's a traitor (which he absolutely is), he became a traitor not because he used sorcery, but because he 'turned' to chaos rather than accepting death, I'm arguing the original point that he wasn't innocent. As for the other Primarchs they started using psykers when they realised that they needed them to fight daemons, even Girlyman did but the important fact is that they didn't use sorcery, the Emperor didn't have a problem with librarians, he had a problem with sorcery, but like in Prospero burns he had to seem fair. And Magnus caused the wolves to come after him, not for ignoring the Edict, he broke the barriers to the Imperial dungeon and webway, he destroyed mankinds chances of survival without the Emperor, he destroyed the Whispering tower and millions of people on terra with his psychic backlash and fated the Emperor to sit on the golden throne, which has caused the high lords and the eccleciarchy to ruin the Imperium. That's the wolves went after him and not the other Primarchs for using librarians. Do you really think there'd be no repercussions... You cannot defend Magnus, its ludicrous and just biased because you like him.

Yep, he did all of that. ON ACCIDENT. That is what you guys aren't getting. He was played by Tzeentch and manipulated into destroying the emperor's webway project unintentionally. He never intended to betray the Imperium and worked solely to help it up until he decided to start fighting the wolves on Prospero. Magnus wasn't even aware the webway project existed until he accidentally broke it.

You have to remember that nobody knew about daemons or the chaos gods yet. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change he merely thought he was dealing with an extremely powerful warp entity, not a literal god of lies and deception.

Let me put it this way... If a soldier in a ballistic missile command center in the U.S were to accidentally bump a row of controls and launch off a dozen nukes that wipe out the eastern seaboard of the United States and kill millions of people, he would not be a traitor. An idiot certainly, guilty of criminal negligence definitely, but it has to be INTENTIONAL for it to be treason. Magnus never INTENDED to betray or fight against the Imperium up until Prospero. The fact that he was unintentionally being manipulated into aiding chaos for a long time is irrelevant. After Prospero? Oh definitely a traitor. But before? Magnus and the 1k Sons were still loyalists. Loyalists that did more damage to the Imperium on accident then most CSM warbands could ever dream of, but still loyalists.

Just like the space marine chapters that were tricked into helping the astral claws fight against the Imperium weren't considered traitors when all was said and done. Sure, they were censured and made to perform penance crusades, but ultimately they were judged not to be traitors, just fools.

On accident, so what. He destroyed the future of the Imperium. Do you think the Emperor is just going to be like 'ach he did it by accident." Magnus knew about daemons, he fought one in the warp in Aghoru and fought two nurgle infected Eldar titans. This argument isn't about being a traitor, its about being innocent or not. You keep trying to frame it as 'he wasn't a traitor before because you can't justify the argument that he didn't deserve to be sanctioned. Magnus did more damage than the whole Horus heresy straight up until the 41st mellenium, without his arrogance, mankind would have the webway and not have to rely on the Emperor for faster than light travel and the throne is failing, so potentially he has fethed the survival of mankind.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
On accident, so what. He destroyed the future of the Imperium. Do you think the Emperor is just going to be like 'ach he did it by accident." Magnus knew about daemons, he fought one in the warp in Aghoru and fought two nurgle infected Eldar titans. This argument isn't about being a traitor, its about being innocent or not. You keep trying to frame it as 'he wasn't a traitor before because you can't justify the argument that he didn't deserve to be sanctioned. Magnus did more damage than the whole Horus heresy straight up until the 41st mellenium, without his arrogance, mankind would have the webway and not have to rely on the Emperor for faster than light travel and the throne is failing, so potentially he has fethed the survival of mankind.

He didn't know the things he was fighting were daemons, merely that they were "warp entities" like slightly more intelligent sharks that live in the warp.

You are essentially correct, he wasn't "innocent" in that he did a lot of "wrong" things. He was arrogant, he broke the rules, he ignored warnings, and agree with your assessment that he may have even doomed humanity to extinction. He completely deserved to be sanctioned at Nikaea, and brought back to Terra in chains after he broke the webway. But, he also deserved a proper explanation as to exactly why sorcery was dangerous that he never got from the emperor. He and his legion also deserved not to be treated like scum by the rest of the legions and their primarchs for simply having abilities that other astartes did not. He and his legion also, arguably, did not deserve to be wiped out by the space wolves. And before the battle of Prospero he was NOT a traitor.

What makes Magnus' fall so tragic was that he never had bad intentions. Everything he did, he either did for the Imperium or his legion. He was thirsty for knowledge, but that thirst was simply the desire to learn more about the universe around him and to better himself. He didn't seek power to rule over others, to usurp anyone, or to tyrannize. He sought power to help others, even if it meant breaking the rules. You can plainly see evidence of this behavior when he sacrificed his eye to stop the flesh change in his legion, and risked possible execution to warn the emperor about Horus. But, despite his intentions he ended up hurting everyone around him and damaging the Imperium irreparably, because he was being manipulated the entire time.

Magnus' fall can be summed up in the proverb "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Is there any more insight (heh) as to when and why Magnus lost his eye?

It’s also worth noting that the Magnus of 40k is NOT the same person as the Magnus of 30k, I mean this in a literal sense, he is missing a part of his soul and that affected his personality, essentially turning him into a different person.


As to his innocence, he wasn’t innocent, while he may have not called them Deamons he knew that these creatures were dangerous and not to be trusted (ref: primarchs Magnus, crimson king, a thousand sons) but still dealt with them, even after ignoring the emperors warnings, he bound one to his book and carried it everywhere with him, those are not the actions of an innocent man, but a man who thought he knew better than everyone else in the face of clear evidence.

As for the edict, it was designed for the sons to fail from the start, it did what it was supposed to do, had Magnus been brought back to terra as commanded then he would be sitting upon the golden throne and everything would have played out differently. It all went just as planned by the EMPEROR, we literally have no supporting evidence that tzeeench had any interference up until Magnus wanted his legion whisked away from prospero, anything on that subject is just conjecture.

 Formosa wrote:
It’s also worth noting that the Magnus of 40k is NOT the same person as the Magnus of 30k, I mean this in a literal sense, he is missing a part of his soul and that affected his personality, essentially turning him into a different person.


As to his innocence, he wasn’t innocent, while he may have not called them Deamons he knew that these creatures were dangerous and not to be trusted (ref: primarchs Magnus, crimson king, a thousand sons) but still dealt with them, even after ignoring the emperors warnings, he bound one to his book and carried it everywhere with him, those are not the actions of an innocent man, but a man who thought he knew better than everyone else in the face of clear evidence.

As for the edict, it was designed for the sons to fail from the start, it did what it was supposed to do, had Magnus been brought back to terra as commanded then he would be sitting upon the golden throne and everything would have played out differently. It all went just as planned by the EMPEROR, we literally have no supporting evidence that tzeeench had any interference up until Magnus wanted his legion whisked away from prospero, anything on that subject is just conjecture.

Come on. I think it's a little more believable that their fall to chaos was engineered from the very beginning by one of the chaos gods, especially sense Magnus had been dealing with one unknowingly since he was re-united with his legion (He bargained with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change). I think its kind of a stretch to say that the emperor intended the 1k Sons to fall to chaos after Nikaea, especially since he ordered Magnus' arrest and the legion to be disarmed, not Magnus' death and the legion's annihilation. Horus changed the orders on purpose.

And on the daemon issue. Yes, Magnus knew they were dangerous, but he had no way of knowing that these creatures were as dangerous as we readers know they are dangerous. Magnus simply viewed them as dangerous animals on the level of intelligent sharks. Remember, nobody at this time knew anything about the daemons/chaos gods because the emperor was suppressing that information. Even when the emperor warned Magnus not to dabble in sorcery he didn't really give a legitimate reason as to WHY Magnus should stop, he basically just kind of said "stop doing it because I said so" which Magnus viewed as hypocritical because he knew the emperor was performing sorcery and warp experiments in the Imperial Palace.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
On accident, so what. He destroyed the future of the Imperium. Do you think the Emperor is just going to be like 'ach he did it by accident." Magnus knew about daemons, he fought one in the warp in Aghoru and fought two nurgle infected Eldar titans. This argument isn't about being a traitor, its about being innocent or not. You keep trying to frame it as 'he wasn't a traitor before because you can't justify the argument that he didn't deserve to be sanctioned. Magnus did more damage than the whole Horus heresy straight up until the 41st mellenium, without his arrogance, mankind would have the webway and not have to rely on the Emperor for faster than light travel and the throne is failing, so potentially he has fethed the survival of mankind.

He didn't know the things he was fighting were daemons, merely that they were "warp entities" like slightly more intelligent sharks that live in the warp.

You are essentially correct, he wasn't "innocent" in that he did a lot of "wrong" things. He was arrogant, he broke the rules, he ignored warnings, and agree with your assessment that he may have even doomed humanity to extinction. He completely deserved to be sanctioned at Nikaea, and brought back to Terra in chains after he broke the webway. But, he also deserved a proper explanation as to exactly why sorcery was dangerous that he never got from the emperor. He and his legion also deserved not to be treated like scum by the rest of the legions and their primarchs for simply having abilities that other astartes did not. He and his legion also, arguably, did not deserve to be wiped out by the space wolves. And before the battle of Prospero he was NOT a traitor.

What makes Magnus' fall so tragic was that he never had bad intentions. Everything he did, he either did for the Imperium or his legion. He was thirsty for knowledge, but that thirst was simply the desire to learn more about the universe around him and to better himself. He didn't seek power to rule over others, to usurp anyone, or to tyrannize. He sought power to help others, even if it meant breaking the rules. You can plainly see evidence of this behavior when he sacrificed his eye to stop the flesh change in his legion, and risked possible execution to warn the emperor about Horus. But, despite his intentions he ended up hurting everyone around him and damaging the Imperium irreparably, because he was being manipulated the entire time.

Magnus' fall can be summed up in the proverb "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Exactly so we are in agreement then.

No one in the Prospero incident was innocent.
-Magnus fethed with things he should have left alone.
-The Emperor fethed up by not explain thing clearly.
-The Thousand Sons fethed up by being arrogant
-The Wolves fethed up by being unable to see past their prejudice. Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender then went hog wild and slaughtered a world, refusing surrender even from innocent civilians.
-And then there was Horus making everything worse.

pm713 wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

When was that?

In his primarch book.

 john27 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

When was that?

In his primarch book.

Is it worth reading?

"Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender "

Russ did try to give Magnus a chance to surrender. But he failed even at that. Magnus looked for a chance to surrender, but none were offered to him.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
No one in the Prospero incident was innocent.
-Magnus fethed with things he should have left alone.
-The Emperor fethed up by not explain thing clearly.
-The Thousand Sons fethed up by being arrogant
-The Wolves fethed up by being unable to see past their prejudice. Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender then went hog wild and slaughtered a world, refusing surrender even from innocent civilians.
-And then there was Horus making everything worse.

Essentially my view on the entire situation. Except the "Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender". He did not. Russ sent a surrender demand to Magnus, but it never reached him because it was intercepted by a chaos agent posing as a 1k Sons plant within the space wolves.

In my mind it was even more evidence of Tzeentch's involvement.

To say that the 1k Sons' fall to chaos was entirely their fault is flat out wrong. It was helped along by Magnus' arrogance, but the seeds were planted with the Emperor hiding the true nature of chaos from the 1k Sons and the other legions' gakky attitude towards them, especially the wolves. The entire thing was engineered from the beginning by Tzeentch as a Xanatos Gambit to either destroy the 1k Sons or make them slaves of chaos.

w1zard wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
No one in the Prospero incident was innocent.
-Magnus fethed with things he should have left alone.
-The Emperor fethed up by not explain thing clearly.
-The Thousand Sons fethed up by being arrogant
-The Wolves fethed up by being unable to see past their prejudice. Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender then went hog wild and slaughtered a world, refusing surrender even from innocent civilians.
-And then there was Horus making everything worse.

Essentially my view on the entire situation. Except the "Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender". He did not. Russ sent a surrender demand to Magnus, but it never reached him because it was intercepted by a chaos agent posing as a 1k Sons plant within the space wolves.

In my mind it was even more evidence of Tzeentch's involvement.

To say that the 1k Sons' fall to chaos was entirely their fault is flat out wrong. It was helped along by Magnus' arrogance, but the seeds were planted with the Emperor hiding the true nature of chaos from the 1k Sons and the other legions' gakky attitude towards them, especially the wolves. The entire thing was engineered from the beginning by Tzeentch as a Xanatos Gambit to either destroy the 1k Sons or make them slaves of chaos.

Got to disagree with that

Kasper houser was not a chaos agent, he was just a normal man that had a subtle nudge here and there from a deamon embedded within his memory of leaving terra (clearly it was there prior to this), thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

Also, all we see from Kasper is his influence on the wolves, not the Tsons, they are the ones that were influenced by Tzeench if anyone, but again thats far too simplistic, Kasper is a strange one as he seems to be part of a paradox, Ahirman was the one that spoke to him and told him to leave at the start of Prospero burns, we dont find this out until Crimson king, so the very start of Kaspers woes was the Tsons interfering with time (for good reasons to them) to find another shard of Magnus, it seems that every time they screw with the warp, they sink a little deeper, there actions, through choice are what leads them to Tzeench, I am still yet to see any solid evidence that Tzeench actually had anything to do with Magnus's actions and by extention the Tsons, it seems that it was them that kicked off their own problems.

Think someone else here has already said it, but "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

Bharring wrote:
"Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender "

Russ did try to give Magnus a chance to surrender. But he failed even at that. Magnus looked for a chance to surrender, but none were offered to him.

They both failed at chances to surrender really. Russ tried someone he believed was a 1k Son agent but wasn't. Magnus didn't get the chance to offer himself up or anything. Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

Which makes me thing Burning of Prospero was introduced to the lore before anyone made details about it beyond Wolves burn Prospero.

 Formosa wrote:

... thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

Funny, that was the crux of my whole argument against calling the Thousand Sons "traitors" before Prospero.

Wasn't it strongly implied that Kasper was kidnapped from Terra by the ruinous powers and was essentially mind controlled and conditioned, and then had his memory wiped so he had no idea he was actually an agent of chaos?

It was also implied that the only reason Kasper was placed there, and Russ "conveniently" found information that painted him as a 1k Sons plant was so that when the time was right, Magnus would not get Russ' surrender demand and Magnus would be faced with the choice of either letting his legion be slaughtered by the wolves or joining Tzeentch. It was a long play, but Tzeentch sees all possible futures.

 Formosa wrote:
Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

No, there is nothing in the lore to my knowledge that directly says "Tzeentch was responsible for all of this". But in either "A Thousand Sons" or "Crimson King" Magnus mulls to himself that the entire situation that led to the 1k Sons downfall was probably planned for a long time by someone or something, and that everything was just a little too neat and too convenient to be anything else than an elaborate plot.

pm713 wrote:
Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

Again, see my analogy about surrendering to Navy Seals who burst into your house and start shooting everyone. It was past Magnus surrendering at that point, the wolves thought that their surrender demand had been rebuffed so they wanted blood. Magnus contacting Russ telepathically would have been most likely treated as a psychic attack, and anything he had to say probably would have been ignored.

From 1d4chan:
Some head-scratching does arise at to why Magnus didn't: a) simply tell his Legion to lay down their weapons and try and talk Russ out of obliterating the entire world, (because if there's one thing Russ liked to do, it was have long, boring, tedious talks about how this was all just a misunderstanding, because Russ is such a great listener) or b) take the hara-kiri option, which would have at least brought everything to an end a little earlier. The common consensus is that Magnus was too proud to consider the idea of negotiating (especially with the brother he had always considered to be an ignorant savage), and while he was at first resigned to his end he ultimately could not accept the idea that all the lore and knowledge the Thousand Sons had worked to collect would be lost with his death. We also know that Magnus fully understood how bad the Emperor's millenia long plan was fethed up by his intervention on Terra, so the destruction of everything he had built and loved was a way to share his father's despair.

Horus in canon said he feared two legions more than any other. The Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons. What better way of removing your biggest fears by having them destroy each other.

 Generalstoner wrote:
Horus in canon said he feared two legions more than any other. The Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons. What better way of removing your biggest fears by having them destroy each other.

He also said in a short story that he feared pitting his legion against the lions and guillimans, thats why Calth happened and he made sure the Dark Angels were so far away in Thramas, (this part has conjecture) the Night Lords were supposed to keep them there and it would have worked had the lion not found Tuchalka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

... thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

1: Funny, that was the crux of my whole argument against calling the Thousand Sons "traitors" before Prospero.

Wasn't it strongly implied that Kasper was kidnapped from Terra by the ruinous powers and was essentially mind controlled and conditioned, and then had his memory wiped so he had no idea he was actually an agent of chaos?

It was also implied that the only reason Kasper was placed there, and Russ "conveniently" found information that painted him as a 1k Sons plant was so that when the time was right, Magnus would not get Russ' surrender demand and Magnus would be faced with the choice of either letting his legion be slaughtered by the wolves or joining Tzeentch. It was a long play, but Tzeentch sees all possible futures.

 Formosa wrote:
Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

2: No, there is nothing in the lore to my knowledge that directly says "Tzeentch was responsible for all of this". But in either "A Thousand Sons" or "Crimson King" Magnus mulls to himself that the entire situation that led to the 1k Sons downfall was probably planned for a long time by someone or something, and that everything was just a little too neat and too convenient to be anything else than an elaborate plot.

pm713 wrote:
Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

3: Again, see my analogy about surrendering to Navy Seals who burst into your house and start shooting everyone. It was past Magnus surrendering at that point, the wolves thought that their surrender demand had been rebuffed so they wanted blood. Magnus contacting Russ telepathically would have been most likely treated as a psychic attack, and anything he had to say probably would have been ignored.

From 1d4chan:
Some head-scratching does arise at to why Magnus didn't: a) simply tell his Legion to lay down their weapons and try and talk Russ out of obliterating the entire world, (because if there's one thing Russ liked to do, it was have long, boring, tedious talks about how this was all just a misunderstanding, because Russ is such a great listener) or b) take the hara-kiri option, which would have at least brought everything to an end a little earlier. The common consensus is that Magnus was too proud to consider the idea of negotiating (especially with the brother he had always considered to be an ignorant savage), and while he was at first resigned to his end he ultimately could not accept the idea that all the lore and knowledge the Thousand Sons had worked to collect would be lost with his death. We also know that Magnus fully understood how bad the Emperor's millenia long plan was fethed up by his intervention on Terra, so the destruction of everything he had built and loved was a way to share his father's despair.

1: I wouldnt say he was kidnapped, he went of his own free will, but he had a nudge here and a nudge there from the memory daemon (thats what I will call it), IIRC it was when he went to meet the 30k Cognitai and stared into that "eye of horus" that the Daemon likely entered his mind, it could have been much earlier though, it also seems that Ahireman remembers him when he meets him in the past, hence the "your name, is it a joke" moment at the start of Prospero burns and near the end of Crimson King... It is clear though that he was never mind controlled, that would be picked up by the wolves in short order as it leaves very clear psychic scaring (Ref: Ravenor/eisenhorn series) and a clear "mark" on the psychic architecture of the victim, the Goti would see that in a hot second.

Kasper was defo manipulated though, that goes without saying!

 Formosa wrote:
It is clear though that he was never mind controlled, that would be picked up by the wolves in short order as it leaves very clear psychic scaring (Ref: Ravenor/eisenhorn series) and a clear "mark" on the psychic architecture of the victim, the Goti would see that in a hot second.

Kasper was defo manipulated though, that goes without saying!

So memory manipulation would be picked up instantly, but being literally possessed by a demon wouldn't?

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It is clear though that he was never mind controlled, that would be picked up by the wolves in short order as it leaves very clear psychic scaring (Ref: Ravenor/eisenhorn series) and a clear "mark" on the psychic architecture of the victim, the Goti would see that in a hot second.

Kasper was defo manipulated though, that goes without saying!

So memory manipulation would be picked up instantly, but being literally possessed by a demon wouldn't?

See he wasn’t possessed by a deamon though, it wasn’t controlling him, it was hidden away deep in his subconscious within a memory, and it was picked up straight away, the wolves knew as soon as they got their hands on him that something wasn’t right, mind control and memory manipulation are much more overt, think of it like psychic surgery, it would and does leave scars on the psychic landscape of a persons mind, the more skilled you are the less scaring thier is, but it can still be found by another skilled psyker, so rather than risk direct mind control the deamon burries itself deep in the mind of its victim and let’s that victim make its own choices but with a little nudge here and there.

We have also seen powerful Deamons able to mask thier presence before, even to very powerful psykers like ravenor, he had a world ending deamon within feet of him and never knew, he went into one of his henchmen’s mind to calm her down and noticed the psychic scaring of the mind control/memory wipe and given the book was written by the same person it’s entirely fair to assume dan abnet intended for this consistency.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

... thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

Funny, that was the crux of my whole argument against calling the Thousand Sons "traitors" before Prospero.

Wasn't it strongly implied that Kasper was kidnapped from Terra by the ruinous powers and was essentially mind controlled and conditioned, and then had his memory wiped so he had no idea he was actually an agent of chaos?

It was also implied that the only reason Kasper was placed there, and Russ "conveniently" found information that painted him as a 1k Sons plant was so that when the time was right, Magnus would not get Russ' surrender demand and Magnus would be faced with the choice of either letting his legion be slaughtered by the wolves or joining Tzeentch. It was a long play, but Tzeentch sees all possible futures.

 Formosa wrote:
Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

No, there is nothing in the lore to my knowledge that directly says "Tzeentch was responsible for all of this". But in either "A Thousand Sons" or "Crimson King" Magnus mulls to himself that the entire situation that led to the 1k Sons downfall was probably planned for a long time by someone or something, and that everything was just a little too neat and too convenient to be anything else than an elaborate plot.

pm713 wrote:
Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

Again, see my analogy about surrendering to Navy Seals who burst into your house and start shooting everyone. It was past Magnus surrendering at that point, the wolves thought that their surrender demand had been rebuffed so they wanted blood. Magnus contacting Russ telepathically would have been most likely treated as a psychic attack, and anything he had to say probably would have been ignored.

From 1d4chan:
Some head-scratching does arise at to why Magnus didn't: a) simply tell his Legion to lay down their weapons and try and talk Russ out of obliterating the entire world, (because if there's one thing Russ liked to do, it was have long, boring, tedious talks about how this was all just a misunderstanding, because Russ is such a great listener) or b) take the hara-kiri option, which would have at least brought everything to an end a little earlier. The common consensus is that Magnus was too proud to consider the idea of negotiating (especially with the brother he had always considered to be an ignorant savage), and while he was at first resigned to his end he ultimately could not accept the idea that all the lore and knowledge the Thousand Sons had worked to collect would be lost with his death. We also know that Magnus fully understood how bad the Emperor's millenia long plan was fethed up by his intervention on Terra, so the destruction of everything he had built and loved was a way to share his father's despair.

It really wasn't past that point and it's hard to see how Magnus voice appearing in a room saying "I want to surrender myself" is an attack.

If you have to use 1d4chan for quotes that just undermines things seeing as it's full of bad fanfic.

pm713 wrote:
It really wasn't past that point and it's hard to see how Magnus voice appearing in a room saying "I want to surrender myself" is an attack.

Again, Russ would have probably ignored it, thinking it was some sort of trick. Especially since Magnus just got finished turning down a surrender demand earlier (In Russ' mind). Why would he suddenly change his mind?

Accept the fact that once the wolves started shooting, it was decided. There was nothing Magnus could have done to stop anything at that point.

Even if he somehow managed to convince all of the 1k Sons to lay down their arms (which Magnus couldn't have done even if he ordered them to because they hated the wolves), and came out of the Ziggurat begging for his life with his hands behind his head, all it would have earned him was a bolt to the face from a Space Wolves Legionnaire. The Space Wolves were all ordered to slaughter and burn everything, and not accept surrender even from civilians.

pm713 wrote:
If you have to use 1d4chan for quotes that just undermines things seeing as it's full of bad fanfic.

I was merely using a 1d4chan quote to show that it has been discussed before by many other people besides us and the reasoning behind each interpretation of the lore. But, if you want to ignore my point because you think I was somehow trying to pass off fanfiction as actual lore even though I obviously wasn't, go right ahead.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It really wasn't past that point and it's hard to see how Magnus voice appearing in a room saying "I want to surrender myself" is an attack.

Again, Russ would have probably ignored it, thinking it was some sort of trick. Especially since Magnus just got finished turning down a surrender demand earlier (In Russ' mind). Why would he suddenly change his mind?

Accept the fact that once the wolves started shooting, it was decided. There was nothing Magnus could have done to stop anything at that point.

Even if he somehow managed to convince all of the 1k Sons to lay down their arms (which Magnus couldn't have done even if he ordered them to because they hated the wolves), and came out of the Ziggurat begging for his life with his hands behind his head, all it would have earned him was a bolt to the face from a Space Wolves Legionnaire. The Space Wolves were all ordered to slaughter and burn everything, and not accept surrender even from civilians.

pm713 wrote:
If you have to use 1d4chan for quotes that just undermines things seeing as it's full of bad fanfic.

I was merely using a 1d4chan quote to show that it has been discussed before by many other people besides us and the reasoning behind each interpretation of the lore. But, if you want to ignore my point because you think I was somehow trying to pass off fanfiction as actual lore even though I obviously wasn't, go right ahead.

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

You seem to think that what happened was they arrived, tried to talk and instantly attacked. That's not what happened, Magnus had plenty of time before the attack began to try and give himself up. Russ wanted to have a bloodless conclusion to things which could easily have been done had either of them bothered to make contact with the other properly. Russ tried talking via Hawser but didn't use vox for some reason and Magnus just did nothing.

When the shooting started all chances of peace died I agree but there was plenty of time to prevent that beforehand. Magnus couldn't have done anything to end it nicely at that point but before that he had plenty of time to do so.

I'm not ignoring your point because you used a 1d4chan quote. I consider it to be contradicted by the lore which is unsurprising as you've shown several times you don't know what you're talking about.

pm713 wrote:

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

Because he thought Magnus just refused his surrender demand. At that point Russ got pissed and said "feth it, I was being generous giving you a surrender demand at all, if you are going to spit in my face then I'm going to slaughter you all."

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

Because he thought Magnus just refused his surrender demand. At that point Russ got pissed and said "feth it, I was being generous giving you a surrender demand at all, if you are going to spit in my face then I'm going to slaughter you all."

That's a really inaccurate portrayal. At no stage was Russ some Angronesque maniac who was looking forwards to the slaughter. He was pretty unhappy before he did it and I'd say upset afterwards. If Magnus had the intelligence to even communicate his desire to surrender then things could have gone very differently.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

Because he thought Magnus just refused his surrender demand. At that point Russ got pissed and said "feth it, I was being generous giving you a surrender demand at all, if you are going to spit in my face then I'm going to slaughter you all."

That's a really inaccurate portrayal. At no stage was Russ some Angronesque maniac who was looking forwards to the slaughter. He was pretty unhappy before he did it and I'd say upset afterwards. If Magnus had the intelligence to even communicate his desire to surrender then things could have gone very differently.

That is not true at all. Russ was chomping at the bit to burn Prospero and slaughter everyone there, and the only thing he regrets about the entire situation was not decapitating Magnus before he got teleported away by Tzeentch. The only time we see Russ expressing any kind of regret at what happened at Prospero was after he learned Horus tricked him. Even then the regret was mostly about getting tricked than feeling bad about what happened to Magnus or his legion. In Russ' mind, Magnus, his legion, and the people of Prospero got what they deserved. This is pretty strongly reinforced through all of the original space wolf lore. Although I will admit I have not read Wolfsbane so I cannot comment on what happens in that book.

Hell, when the other legions found out what Russ did, they even questioned if the Wolves had turned traitor because of the brutality behind the attack (and because Horus was saying so). Weren't the White Scars preparing a retaliatory strike against the Space Wolves until Khan went to the remains of Prospero himself to figure out what really happened?

Some interesting tidbits from the WH40k Wikipedia (I know it isn't an infallible source, but it's the best reference we have when we talk about lore outside of quoting passages directly from novels):

On Tzeentch manipulating Magnus:
"Magnus had finally understood, after his forced psychic entry into the Hall of the Golden Throne and his direct mental communication with the Emperor, that he had been manipulated by Tzeentch, with whom he had apparently unknowingly consorted while desperately looking for a way to stop the emergence of the psychic mutations that were threatening to destroy his Legion. In an act of repentance and sacrifice, and to show his father that he and his Legion were loyal to the end, he did not warn the defenders of the planet or his Legion of the coming Imperial attack: on the contrary, he imposed a psychic veil on the planet so the Thousand Sons would have no clue of the impending assault. He also dispersed the Thousand Sons' Legion fleet far away from Prospero. He knew that Tzeentch wanted the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves to slaughter each other, and he wanted to stop these plans, even if it meant the sacrifice of his Legion and homeworld. Therefore, the Space Wolves' attack on the Thousand Sons' homeworld of Prospero came as a complete surprise to its people and the Astartes Legion who protected them."

On Russ and the burning of Prospero:
"With no response from the ground, the Imperial armada moved into high orbital anchor above Prospero and assumed a geostationary assault pattern. Thousands of weapons were trained on the planet below: energy weapons, mass-drivers and kinetic bombardment cannons. The starships drifted sedately like grand liners in a regatta among the stars. Leman Russ' flagship, the Battle Barge Hrafnkel, opened the orbital assault, its massive weapons systems etching lines of icy light into the surface of Prospero. Moments later, the rest of the Imperial fleet opened fire." (Nothing about trying to open negotiations beyond his attempt to demand surrender through Kasper).

"All told well over thirty million lives were lost in the prosecution of the Emperor's justice on Prospero, the vast majority of these deaths being those citizens of the Imperium on the planet at the time of the Imperial Censure Fleet's arrival. Official records place the number of survivors from Prospero's civilian population at zero, and while in actuality there were certainly some thousands at large in the galaxy or who potentially escaped with one of the few bands of Thousand Sons to leave the planet alive, as a people the Prosperine branch of Mankind was now extinct. Of the Thousand Sons, official records before 014.M31 no longer listed the Legion, assuming it was completely destroyed until the Siege of Terra. Again, the actual truth is somewhat different, but still places the losses incurred for those Thousand Sons on Prospero at the time of the fleet's arrival at near-total, with the survivors scattered across the galaxy." (Russ made no attempts to distinguish between military and civilian targets, and he killed every living thing on the planet without quarter).

On Russ' feelings toward Prospero:
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/4j8wfl/does_russ_ever_show_any_remorse_for_the_burning/

Granted it is a reddit thread, so take it with a grain of salt, but the consensus seems to be "no not really" although he did feel bad about getting manipulated into it by Horus.

What.... Russ actively tried contacting Magnus to try and get a "bloodless" conclusion and went out of the way to state that was an offer being extended because Magnus was his brother. The way you're presenting things is plain wrong.

pm713 wrote:
What.... Russ actively tried contacting Magnus to try and get a "bloodless" conclusion and went out of the way to state that was an offer being extended because Magnus was his brother. The way you're presenting things is plain wrong.

Russ tried contacting Magnus by extending a surrender demand through Kasper Hawser, whom Russ belived (wrongly) was a thousand sons spy. It never reached Magnus because Hawser was an (unknowing to even himself) chaos spy. This was Russ' only attempt to try to get Magnus to surrender. Russ never tried communicating in any other way, and because he never received a response to his surrender demand, thought that Magnus was refusing it.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What.... Russ actively tried contacting Magnus to try and get a "bloodless" conclusion and went out of the way to state that was an offer being extended because Magnus was his brother. The way you're presenting things is plain wrong.

Russ tried contacting Magnus by extending a surrender demand through Kasper Hawser, whom Russ belived (wrongly) was a thousand sons spy. It never reached Magnus because Hawser was an (unknowing to even himself) chaos spy. This was Russ' only attempt to try to get Magnus to surrender. Russ never tried communicating in any other way, and because he never received a response to his surrender demand, thought that Magnus was refusing it.

So like I said: Russ tried to get things sorted without fighting before attacking. He had no idea that he wasn't talking to Magnus.

Which ties in to what I said before. Russ tried talking to Magnus, failed and for some reason didn't use vox. Magnus didn't try talking at all.

The fault is The Emperors.

He made a lot of 'don't do this, don't do that' decrees - but rarely told his Sons why.

And don't forget, the Wolves were only meant to bring Magnus back to Terra. The change in their orders was Horus' doing.

Im pretty sure Russ wasnt chomping at the bit. Valdor bitching in his ear on the other hand. Was.

But Russ is a dog and does what hes told.

the ancient wrote:
Im pretty sure Russ wasnt chomping at the bit. Valdor bitching in his ear on the other hand. Was.

But Russ is a dog and does what hes told.

Russ was in no way reluctant to burn Prospero and kill Magnus. Sure, Horus changed the orders, and Valdor was egging him on the entire time, but Russ held an extremely deep animosity towards Magnus and the 1K Sons that he vented during the battle. I think saying he was salivating over the prospect and cackling would be an exaggeration, but not by much.

Update: Going out of your way to make an unprecedented attempt at peace making against your orders isn't demonstrating you don't really want to do it.

Tomorrow's news: We talk about how Salamanders are the REAL Traitors.

pm713 wrote:
Update: Going out of your way to make an unprecedented attempt at peace making against your orders isn't demonstrating you don't really want to do it.

Tomorrow's news: We talk about how Salamanders are the REAL Traitors.

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

Magnus was pretty innocent before burning of Prospero. His crime was ignorance and he lost his battle against Tzeentch. Otherhand the Emperor keep vital information away from Magnus. Did the Emperor made error or was it calculated or even a gamble? He could see different futures, maybe other futures were worser?

 Draco wrote:
Magnus was pretty innocent before burning of Prospero. His crime was ignorance and he lost his battle against Tzeentch. Otherhand the Emperor keep vital information away from Magnus. Did the Emperor made error or was it calculated or even a gamble? He could see different futures, maybe other futures were worser?

I dont think the Emperor could forsee much worse than losing his grand design for humanity.

No one is innocent in warhammer 40k (or 30k). There are only those with power to enforce their views and those without.







Except the squats...those innocent little guys.

How can Magnus be “innocent” prior to prospero when he sacrificed a whole planet and then bound a deamon to his book, he even murdered the fleeing civilians of the planet that had gotten into space, he was in no way innocent, none of the primarchs are innocent, Magnus is worse than most, he just had good intentions.

Haha no.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

w1zard wrote:
In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

That really isn't a bright approach to life. I'm guessing you're pretty young.

Usually, the reason people in authority positions tell you not to do something that they themselves do is because you aren't capable of doing it without hurting yourself or others.

Chcek out TLJ on why this is a bad idea that leads to mutiny. Even a superior has to explain why he orders something. If either Magnus or the Emperor had told the TS the flesh change was no mere flaw but deliberate demonic murder they probably would have acted very different.

A big problem with the debate around the burning of Prospero is that every version GW has published has bits of contradiction and a highly skewed perspective. And that's not just retcons but a deliberate move on the writers' part.
The only thing every version agrees on is Horus/ Tzeentch got pretty much exactly what they wanted.

 gorgon wrote:

w1zard wrote:
In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

That really isn't a bright approach to life. I'm guessing you're pretty young.

Usually, the reason people in authority positions tell you not to do something that they themselves do is because you aren't capable of doing it without hurting yourself or others.

I'm 26.

If it's because it is dangerous then the person in question can calmly and rationally explain that to me and the reasons behind why it is dangerous instead of doing finger wagging and expecting I will follow orders out of blind obedience.

If someone tells me not to do drugs right after snorting a whole pile of cocaine in another room I'm not going to take them seriously. Especially if they try to pretend (badly) that they aren't doing it.

... and right there you have Magnus and the emperor's relationship in a nutshell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
How can Magnus be “innocent” prior to prospero when he sacrificed a whole planet and then bound a deamon to his book, he even murdered the fleeing civilians of the planet that had gotten into space, he was in no way innocent, none of the primarchs are innocent, Magnus is worse than most, he just had good intentions.

You are right, Magnus was never "innocent", none of the primarchs were. I was just arguing that he wasn't a "traitor" (or at least an intentional one) before Prospero.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

Then he would've tried harder. He really wasn't reluctant. 1 try means you don't care much.

 gorgon wrote:

w1zard wrote:
In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

That really isn't a bright approach to life. I'm guessing you're pretty young.

Usually, the reason people in authority positions tell you not to do something that they themselves do is because you aren't capable of doing it without hurting yourself or others.

The further up the chain of command you get the more important it is to have all the information you can get your hands on, as you are not only responsible for your own well-being but that of every person Under your command, withholding vital information is extremely dangerous at this point.

Magnus and the other primarchs were at the top of their respective chains of command, with the terrain council, malcador and the emperor being above them.

The primarchs should have been told, but the emperor and malcador feared that when the eventual civil war happened it could be much much worse .... they were both wrong and right.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

Then he would've tried harder. He really wasn't reluctant. 1 try means you don't care much.

If he wasn't reluctant why make the attempt? He never did that before for anybody. Magnus isn't his favourite person so it's hardly because he personally thinks Magnus is innocent. Reluctance explains all that.

He's reluctant to kill another Legion so he tries contacting them and (wrongly) believing he's been ignored he goes ahead believing that any further attempts would be futile.

As an aside: When was Prospero first entered in the lore? Because I'm betting that it was before the novels were made which explains a fair bit of why they're somewhat illogical in parts.

pm713 wrote:

As an aside: When was Prospero first entered in the lore? Because I'm betting that it was before the novels were made which explains a fair bit of why they're somewhat illogical in parts.

The wolves burning Prospero has been around for a LOOOONG time. Possibly even since 1st edition.

The stories of how it actually happened though came much later.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

Then he would've tried harder. He really wasn't reluctant. 1 try means you don't care much.

If he wasn't reluctant why make the attempt? He never did that before for anybody. Magnus isn't his favourite person so it's hardly because he personally thinks Magnus is innocent. Reluctance explains all that.

He's reluctant to kill another Legion so he tries contacting them and (wrongly) believing he's been ignored he goes ahead believing that any further attempts would be futile.

As an aside: When was Prospero first entered in the lore? Because I'm betting that it was before the novels were made which explains a fair bit of why they're somewhat illogical in parts.

It's probably the reluctance of seeing if your dudes are actually going to need to fight. It was likely more for his dudes rather than care for the Thousand Sons.

I know only three things about this subject.

1) Russ is a dog, nothing more nothing less.
2) Magnus was terribly stupid.
3) Tzeentch won.

 SickSix wrote:

 Draco wrote:
Magnus was pretty innocent before burning of Prospero. His crime was ignorance and he lost his battle against Tzeentch. Otherhand the Emperor keep vital information away from Magnus. Did the Emperor made error or was it calculated or even a gamble? He could see different futures, maybe other futures were worser?

I dont think the Emperor could forsee much worse than losing his grand design for humanity.

Spoiler:

He literally says he has no idea what to do, after losing the webway, to one of his custodes in Master of Mankind.

Good to know. I haven't that book yet.

Magnus was not innocent. He was arrogant. As Arrogant as most Primarch, maybe more than most. He was convinced he knew best. He was convinced he was too smart to be tricked. He was convinced he could beat the denizens of the warp at their game.

He was wrong.

Why didn't the Emperor tell him more? An age old question when it comes to telling people not to do things you can or have to do. Parent tell their kid not to drink alcohol until they are older. We've all see the commercials saying "don't try this at home" and "professional driver on closed course". And yet people do those things stuff anyway because they are sure they know better.

Ultimately, the Emperor told the Primarchs what he thought they needed to know when it was, in his view, necessary or they were ready to learn it. Unfortunately, he didn't tell them enough soon enough and he got the Hersey as a result of his failures as a leader/father.

 john27 wrote:
Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

What book gave us that jewel of lore?

Memes aside
The t sons were really just a case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Everything Magnus did and everything the TSon did up until the end was because they were still loyal to the imperium and wanted to prove their loyalty. Iirc ahriman still wants a imperium just is not happy with the current one sin charge.

Really they were all just in the wrong place at the wrong time.