I want Grey Knights to be buffed so they do not need mixed detachments like soup or special characters like Celestine to be effective. I want what is already effective like Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight Armors and Strike Squads to get a buff. Thanks!
I'd like to see some changes to Necron flyers to make them a little more competitive. They're such cool models but just seem too weak compared to the other units and other armies flyers in general.
Towenaar wrote: I'd like to see some changes to Necron flyers to make them a little more competitive. They're such cool models but just seem too weak compared to the other units and other armies flyers in general.
Looking at the Doom Scythe DeathRay change to Assault D3
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would like to strongly ask bringing the points of Space Marine (all of those books) Tactical Squad, "naked" Assault Squad and Devastator Squad down to 10-11ppm. Scout down to 9-10ppm. The previous CA and FAQ just keep nerfing Space Marines by raising the points of anything good in SM army, like Assault Cannons, hurricane bolters, Razorback, Stormraven, Fire Raptor and Guilliman. Yes, Guilliman at 400pts is fair, but maybe not for the Razorbacks and Stormraven themselves as they are only "awesome" when under the buff of Big G. Furthermore, it is definitely not fair to just nerf the good units but not buff the "trash" units like Tactical Marines and Assault Marines, given Space Marines are already in lower tier.
Chaos Marines need some help. I would like to see the following:
1) Points reduction for a Lord of Skulls to bring it in line with the new Knight codex.
2) Points reduction or significant buff to Warp Talons. They are too pretty to be so bleh.
3) Buff Noise Marines Sonic weapons. Currently very lackluster since cover is an afterthought.
For all flavors of Marines, have chapter tactics/legion traits apply to all units.
Something has to be done to curb the 180 point AM detachment that gives any imperium army 5 CP. It's too easily abused. Maybe restrict CPs to detachments that generate them, or a penalty to CP when the warlord is in a different army? Not sure what the right answer is in this one.
For the love of the throne, please reduce the points on FW titans, especially in light of the points for the new Knights. In no universe is a Warhound worth 2k points...it wasn't even really worth the 1500 it was before.
Its a pipe dream, but I would like to see Chaos Daemons gain a Chaos Alliance trait. Mono-god armies are dull to play with and against. At least give Daemon players something like the DE ability to field three patrol detachments and generate CPs.
Something has to be done to curb the 180 point AM detachment that gives any imperium army 5 CP. It's too easily abused. Maybe restrict CPs to detachments that generate them, or a penalty to CP when the warlord is in a different army? Not sure what the right answer is in this one.
Agreed, easy fix would be to return AM to platoons, rather than straight infantry squads. Requiring platoon commander/squad and at least two IS's to count as a single troop choice
The new-improved Knights really need an AM farm atm - Knights are quite CP hungry and with so few units some buffs are going to make all the difference.
Alternative might be a CP boost for an all-knight Super Heavy detachment, with caveat that knights need to be the big guns to prevent Armiger spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking out loud, a similar approach may make sense for other elite Imperial armies. Boost CP for certain detachments and remove the need to soup.
I'd like to see CP become faction specific. A guard battalion gives 5 CP, that have to be used on IG stratagems or generics targeting IG units.
That will eliminate the problem of CP farms handing out points to armies like Custodes who have outstanding stratagems because there were designed to have 9 CP at absolute most.
I say this as someone whose competitive list is IG/Custodes Bikes/Celestine.
w0nderland wrote: The new-improved Knights really need an AM farm atm - Knights are quite CP hungry and with so few units some buffs are going to make all the difference.
Alternative might be a CP boost for an all-knight Super Heavy detachment, with caveat that knights need to be the big guns to prevent Armiger spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking out loud, a similar approach may make sense for other elite Imperial armies. Boost CP for certain detachments and remove the need to soup.
All armies would be CP hungry if they had the level of strategems that knights and custodes have. Necrons have incredible stratagems, but can't spam sub-200 point detachments to generate more CPs. Just because the army has very useful strategems doesn't mean they should be able to spam them mercilessly.
And for an explanation on exactly WHY Sisters need beta rules BEFORE they can get a Codex. The Sisters Index army list was/is AWESOME.
My understanding is that they are going to give us the 'codex treatment' to fulfill their intention of giving all factions a codex by the end of the year - which will tide us over till the actual dex with new models in 2019. By codex treatment, I mean to say that I'm expecting at least a page each of Stratagems, Relics and different <ORDER> rules, plus points tweaks and rules refinements etc.
w0nderland wrote: The new-improved Knights really need an AM farm atm - Knights are quite CP hungry and with so few units some buffs are going to make all the difference.
Alternative might be a CP boost for an all-knight Super Heavy detachment, with caveat that knights need to be the big guns to prevent Armiger spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking out loud, a similar approach may make sense for other elite Imperial armies. Boost CP for certain detachments and remove the need to soup.
All armies would be CP hungry if they had the level of strategems that knights and custodes have. Necrons have incredible stratagems, but can't spam sub-200 point detachments to generate more CPs. Just because the army has very useful strategems doesn't mean they should be able to spam them mercilessly.
Totally. Imperials just have the advantage of IM CP farms that open this as the dominant strategy.
Maybe CP needs to just be detached from formations altogether. Everyone gets 10 or something.
w0nderland wrote: The new-improved Knights really need an AM farm atm - Knights are quite CP hungry and with so few units some buffs are going to make all the difference.
Alternative might be a CP boost for an all-knight Super Heavy detachment, with caveat that knights need to be the big guns to prevent Armiger spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking out loud, a similar approach may make sense for other elite Imperial armies. Boost CP for certain detachments and remove the need to soup.
All armies would be CP hungry if they had the level of strategems that knights and custodes have. Necrons have incredible stratagems, but can't spam sub-200 point detachments to generate more CPs. Just because the army has very useful strategems doesn't mean they should be able to spam them mercilessly.
Necron's don't have to spend about 1000 pts MINIMUM for 3 CP...
And for an explanation on exactly WHY Sisters need beta rules BEFORE they can get a Codex. The Sisters Index army list was/is AWESOME.
So you don't want codex at all?
They need plastic models before codex. Since they have only started work on those now they won't be on sale 2018 december period. So no codex before 2018 december period. Thus it's either no codex, codex but no beta rules or codex with beta rules ahead of time. Out of the 3 options which you prefer?
Allarus Custodians need a 3++ standard or else a ~15 point drop.
Shield Captains on jetbike probably need a 10 pt increase. Vertus Praetors need to go up 5 pts.
Venerable Land Raider should drop 20 points or so.
Blood Angel Captains need a 20 pt increase. Tacticals can drop 1 or maybe 2 pts across the board.
Destroyers need to be 5 pts more. Tomb Blades too. Tesseract Vault needs to be 30-40 pts more. Everything with RP besides destroyers needs to drop about 10% in point cost.
Either make IG infantry squads into platoons or bump up every infantry HQ in their list by at least 30 points.
Don't think shield captains are just 10 pts too cheap.
BA captains...Problem with those is that it's only those combos. Increase 20 pts and what happens to those builds that AREN'T storm shield+thunderhammer+relic+WL trait?
GW really screwed up making relics and warlord traits free.
The problem is the only competitive units in the Custodes list are on Dawneagle Jetbikes. Nerf those too much and you can just throw out the entire codex.
Shield Captains aren't even as good, point for point, as Vertus Praetors. They're just able to be taken with a smaller investment.
Speaking of which, I'd straight up remove the Supreme Command detachment.
And about BA Captains, you're right. Should make thunder hammers on characters more expensive by 10 pts and captains maybe 5 pts more expensive. Also maybe up stormshields by 5 pts on characters.
Everything with the terminator keyword needs a 4++ base I think.
For the love of the throne, please reduce the points on FW titans, especially in light of the points for the new Knights. In no universe is a Warhound worth 2k points...it wasn't even really worth the 1500 it was before.
Not happening. The whole point of it costing 2k in the first place is to effectively ban it from matched play. Notice they didn't mess with it's PL value. It's very clear here GW's intent is that Titans are for narrative/apocalypse only.
If all termies gets 4++ base what would you do for cataphractii who are supposed to be slower more survivable? Now they have 4++. 3++? But then there's cataphractii with stormshield...
Point drops on Annihilation Barges/Necron Flyers/Mono/Lychguard and Praets and improve the Tesla Annihilator to Dmg 2 or d3.
The rest of the codex is fine-ish. Not really breaking but enough to kinda compete.
Start with 5 Command Points instead of 3? +1 bonus to go first?
Go harder.
If you have an army of a single faction i.e. Astra Militarum with a single regiment keyword i.e. Tallarn. Reduce CP costs by 1 to a minimum of 1.
That's a little silly. I'd much rather see +3 Command Points for having a "pure" army. Or else a solid negative for allies - say, -2CP for each detachment that does not share a <subfaction> keyword with your Warlord.
- Necron Destroyer Lord gets the same reroll aura as the Necron Lord.
- It would be nice if Drazhar could be a little less godawful.
- Minor point, but I think the 10pts added to the Archon's cost in the codex was unnecessary, so it would be nice if that was reversed/
- Alternatively, could DE maybe get some bonuses for open-topped vehicles when it comes to auras? Even if auras were just erratad to work on other units in the transport, that would at least be something. As it stands we've got this really weird scenario where the army is meant to shoot from its transports, yet the only way they're allowed to benefit from their commander's aura is if everyone first gets out.
- Incubi become Kabal units.
- IG Veterans go back to paying Infantry prices for their special weapons, rather than paying Scion prices (thus turning them into vastly inferior Scions).
- A price reduction on Chimeras (and/or Heavy Flamers) would be nice.
kronk wrote: Start with 5 Command Points instead of 3? +1 bonus to go first?
5 CP instead of 3 is meaningless. You can start with 8 CP just by including a tiny IG detachment in your army.
I think, as someone else suggested, we also need to limit CP spending to the faction that generated them (so if you take an IG detachment you can only spend those CP on IG units/stratagems).
I think making it so you can only pick your warlord from your largest detachment, and only gaining CP from detachments that match your warlord's faction would be a solid fix for the CP / allies issue.
Assuming they aren't going to make detailed rules changes, points costs for infantry need to go down for elite infantry and up for chaff.
Some general points increases should be made based on the following:
4++ or better invul saves need to cost more, especially on large vehicles. 5++ saves should be valued less, especially on infantry with good armor saves ie terminators.
2+ and 3+ armor saves need to be valued less.
2W infantry need to be valued less.
And specific rules changes id llike to see in addition to points reductions:
Chaos Marines should be able to take bolters, chainswords, and pistols.
Rhinos should have two fire points again
All power armor and Terminator armor squad units in elite slots should get BS/WS2+.
Flamers, melta and grav need to be buffed/changed. Grav could be assault 2, melta could do 3 damage to vehicles on a damage roll of 1, 2 or 3, and flamers could have unlimited range and ignore LoS during overwatch, and do 2d6 hits, with a hits per model max of 1 to 1 (or 2 or 3 to 1 for the bigger flamers).
OC Plasma needs to do mortal wounds so it isn't killing razorbacks or characters, but should always do a mortal wound on a 1 before any rerolls. You can reroll it and apply the result, but you still take the MW.
For the love of the throne, please reduce the points on FW titans, especially in light of the points for the new Knights. In no universe is a Warhound worth 2k points...it wasn't even really worth the 1500 it was before.
Not happening. The whole point of it costing 2k in the first place is to effectively ban it from matched play. Notice they didn't mess with it's PL value. It's very clear here GW's intent is that Titans are for narrative/apocalypse only.
But then they introduce Imperial Knights that are almost every bit as powerful that cost a mere 600 points. That logic makes no sense. If they keep titans at their current point cost, then make them worth it.
For the love of the throne, please reduce the points on FW titans, especially in light of the points for the new Knights. In no universe is a Warhound worth 2k points...it wasn't even really worth the 1500 it was before.
Not happening. The whole point of it costing 2k in the first place is to effectively ban it from matched play. Notice they didn't mess with it's PL value. It's very clear here GW's intent is that Titans are for narrative/apocalypse only.
Yeah. GW cares zero from balance. Them messing up with FW point values were clear proof of that.
That's why anybody who wants balanced game should DREAD these chapter approved. Plenty of changes for marketing reasons, none for balance.
For the love of the throne, please reduce the points on FW titans, especially in light of the points for the new Knights. In no universe is a Warhound worth 2k points...it wasn't even really worth the 1500 it was before.
Not happening. The whole point of it costing 2k in the first place is to effectively ban it from matched play. Notice they didn't mess with it's PL value. It's very clear here GW's intent is that Titans are for narrative/apocalypse only.
But then they introduce Imperial Knights that are almost every bit as powerful that cost a mere 600 points. That logic makes no sense. If they keep titans at their current point cost, then make them worth it.
Knights in the codex are plastic. Titans are resin. They are happy to sell titans for collectors who don't buy multiples of kits anyway but instead one of everything. Gamers however who buy stuff for rules they want to sell plastic as overhead is MUCH higher getting higher % of every pound sold in plastic in pure profit.
That logic makes very much sense. They want players to spend more money on plastic rather than resin that gives less profits but doesn't need to sell huge quantities to make profit. Thus ideal to sell for collectors.
tneva82 wrote: If all termies gets 4++ base what would you do for cataphractii who are supposed to be slower more survivable? Now they have 4++. 3++? But then there's cataphractii with stormshield...
Perth wrote:I'd like to see CP become faction specific. A guard battalion gives 5 CP, that have to be used on IG stratagems or generics targeting IG units.
That will eliminate the problem of CP farms handing out points to armies like Custodes who have outstanding stratagems because there were designed to have 9 CP at absolute most.
I say this as someone whose competitive list is IG/Custodes Bikes/Celestine.
casvalremdeikun wrote:I want armies composed of only one faction to receive a bonus.
It seems these two might go together. Having access to more CP for being mono-faction would be fantastic. Armies like Deldar would need some sort of exception though.
I like the idea of a CP bonus for people with just one sub-faction. I don't like how good an IG battalion is right now, and this would both reduce the incentive to use it, and the penalty for non-imperial armies for not being able to take it.
I'd bring back the idea of universal special rules. I'm fed up of learning a subtly different version of "infiltrate" for every unit that can sneak into position before the game. You can end up with 3 or more versions of the rule in the same army, if you have marine scouts setting up early, raven guard striking from the shadows and Lias "deep striking" - all representing people doing basically the same thing.
Land raiders should get a rule to let them fall back and still shoot (and maybe charge). Maybe even give them a proper melee attack like IG superheavies get.
Alternatively, remove the ability to fall back and shoot from the fly keyword. Give some actual thought to which units should have the ability to do that, and give it to them.
Custodes do need re-balancing. Bikes are great and everything else is rubbish right now, so attack the points to change that. The above change to Land raiders might help, slightly.
I feel like the GK codex needs virtually a total re-write now that they are prevented from deep striking. Maybe they should just be an exception to that rule to make them even vaguely viable. Seeing what was already one of the weakest armies in the game receive that level of nerf from the big FAQ, albeit as collateral damage from necessary changes, was really harsh.
I also think the chaos marine and space marine codexes need a lot of attention. My theory here is that bolt guns need to do something. This has always been an issue for marines to be honest - they just don't kill anything. These are supposed to be the iconic models in 40k and they have been relegated to scoring unit tokens, if they are taken at all. GW has somehow managed to make SM, CSM, DG and TS codexes, in which tactical marines, chaos marines, plague marines and rubric marines are all un-competitive. That's almost impressive.
I'd also have a good look at the stratagems for those earlier codexes, because they are really weak by comparison to the newer stuff. You see people saying that IKs are "CP-heavy". They aren't - they just have stratagems that are worth using. It's not that marines wouldn't like to spend their CPs - they just have nothing worthwhile to do with them!
A good place to start would be to make drop pods a stratagem, rather than something that cost points. Loads of other armies have access to a deep strike stratagem, so why not marines - and of course I'd give them to all flavours of chaos marines too. Maybe charge 2CPs for the pod during deployment and you can fill it up with whoever can get inside, same as now.
Flamers should have their price cut across the board, obviously...
I feel like the GK codex needs virtually a total re-write now that they are prevented from deep striking. Maybe they should just be an exception to that rule to make them even vaguely viable. Seeing what was already one of the weakest armies in the game receive that level of nerf from the big FAQ, albeit as collateral damage from necessary changes, was really harsh.
Out of interest, would it help GK at all if the rule was changed such that you can't have more than 50% of your reserves arrive on turn 1?
A good place to start would be to make drop pods a stratagem, rather than something that cost points. Loads of other armies have access to a deep strike stratagem, so why not marines - and of course I'd give them to all flavours of chaos marines too. Maybe charge 2CPs for the pod during deployment and you can fill it up with whoever can get inside, same as now.
I think the difference is that drop pods are a unit in and of themselves. Other armies with seep strike stratagems don't get an extra unit along with the ability to deep strike.
A good place to start would be to make drop pods a stratagem, rather than something that cost points. Loads of other armies have access to a deep strike stratagem, so why not marines - and of course I'd give them to all flavours of chaos marines too. Maybe charge 2CPs for the pod during deployment and you can fill it up with whoever can get inside, same as now.
I think the difference is that drop pods are a unit in and of themselves. Other armies with seep strike stratagems don't get an extra unit along with the ability to deep strike.
I do get that, but ultimately their only function is to drop your guys in, replicating deep strike. It's actually slightly worse than normal deep strike because the guys need to disembark around the pod.
Maybe the pod just shouldn't count as a unit then. Have it count as a terrain piece once it's down, not something that can hold objectives and stuff. That would make more sense anyway.
On the other hand, the stupid nurgle tree definitely ought to count as a unit. It ought to have a profile and I ought to be able to chop it down if a knight gets near to it with a heavy flamer and a reaper chainsword.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Stompas. Because Mork knows they're still going to be a dumpster fire in the upcoming codex.
God yes, right now we pay waaaaaaaaaay too much for the durability. Roughly twice as durable and expensive as a baneblade, less then half the firepower
1st: Go through all the basic rules and clarify everything (Get an english professor or something to do the writing and plug all the rule gaps).
2nd: Go through the first wave of codex's and update them to make them in line with the newer shiner codex's (again getting the english professor from 1st to fix any ambiguity)
3rd: Make deny the witch tests psychic tests (if you have a + or - to your test then you should be better or worse at denying
4th: Give nonpsy races (Necron/Tau) a strat or relic allowing them at least one deny per turn.
5th: As mentioned by many already give some kind of bonus to Faction/Subfaction pure armies. How about a 10% summon pool for all the various stratagems that regen or make new units? So a 2000 point army gets 200pts worth of summoning. Also add an Appropriate universal stratagem so all factions can use it EG: Reinforcements 3CP: Redeploy an infantry unit that was just destroyed within 6" of your board edge. You must pay it's cost in reenforcement points. If the unit has a special mode of deployment (ie some form of deapstrike) and it is before the 4th turn you may use it to deploy instead.
or something similar but that makes you pay some for it.
If your army is all the same subfaction reenforcement units cost 50% less power and points to a max of 1/4 your total army points/power (again add a universal Stratagem so all armies can take advantage of this)
So if you had a 2000 point army and set aside 250 pts for reinforcements you would get 500pts of units(this would be the max)
For me the problem for terminators is that their guns do nothing like enough damage for their price. I'd look at radically improving the effectiveness of storm bolters, perhaps only when used by terminators, to make them a viable gun.
Mandragola wrote: For me the problem for terminators is that their guns do nothing like enough damage for their price. I'd look at radically improving the effectiveness of storm bolters, perhaps only when used by terminators, to make them a viable gun.
This has consistently been the issue with terminators across the last few editions. They are a little more durable, but they don’t DO anything before they die
Non-Imperial Titanic units in general need some changing. A few are in a fine place (Tesseract Vaults spring to mind) but for the most part they range from trash (Stompas) to thoroughly mediocre (Wraithknights).
Forge World Titanic units also need to have some kind of sensible balancing done regardless of whether GW wants them to fit in 2000 or sub 2000 point games. There's absolutely no balance with them, Chapter Approved 2017 basically just sledge-hammered them out of competitive play.
Inquisition need a lot of work. Neither they nor the ministorum got a look in with the last chapter approved. Notable offenders include Jacobus (a barely-armed priest for the cost of three priests) and acolytes (8pt guardsmen paying old index marine prices for weapons).
Fortifications in general have been largely absent from this edition, paying BS3+ points for BS5+ guns.
Sisters could do with repeating the last CA and ducking a pre-codex 'encouragement to buy' nerfhammer [/cynical]
More work on allies. Tag up related factions - ordos and talons of the emperor rather than being so half-baked with the battle brothers.
A few strategems for the strategemless, warlord traits, etc (including a replacement for that really poorly thought out sororitas one).
And a long shot, but some implementation of the units that forgeworld have been holding back from mechanicus, custodes, and SoS. The latter two are (AFAIK) slated for a book in the near future but the admech line has been split down the middle for years now.
I can only speak to the issues in the meta in my local gameing area
1) total and complete elimination of CP regeneration
2) buff small elite armies so that the WL gives them X amount of CP (similar to Calgar / Girlyman buff that increases CP) so that they start out with a "reasonable" amount of CP --- The increase in CP that went live last FAQ, was nice, but bit much when factoring in the CP regen abilities
3) fix las-cannon spam (or any type of anti-tank weapon spam) ..even with the rule of 3, the sheer quantity of las-cannons deployed has resulted in almost no one useing any sort of vehicles, its all foot sloggin infantry nowadays for the most part (there are the rare exceptions )
- increase cost of las-cannons to 35 points or change the stats (something like, las-cannon does d3 wounds, on 6+ to wound does d6 wounds perhaps?) various ideas have been tossed around here, but no one can come up with a solid plan on how to fix this issue
New Knights need that Lance rule FAQed out of existence or made into a carrot rather than a stick.
Lance rule?
Only getting Command Points for Super-heavy Detachments if they include any combination of three or more Dominus and Questoris class Knights. There are parts of the actual codex that specifically state such a detachment with three Knights, one being an Armiger, would receive the usual three Command Points for the detachment, yet the rules contradict that. Warhammer Community also stated one of the great things about Armigers was that they generate cheaper Command Points for Imperial Knight armies....which the Knight Lance rule exposes as a mistake. There's a blatant disconnect between the rules writers and everyone else involved in both the making of the codex and their media team, apparently.
Gunrunner1775 wrote: ...various ideas have been tossed around here, but no one can come up with a solid plan on how to fix this issue
It has to be something that doesn't leave armies dead in the water against knights, primarchs, etc.
Some factions can try their luck with melee and psychic powers but not everyone has that option... then again some of those don't have lascannons either.
Though there is always the question as to whether lascannons are cheap or everything else is expensive/mis-statted, such as multimeltas.
2. Objective secured (Their number is Legion, Their name is death) on himself and nearby non-Troop Unit. OR he adds himself to the count for a nearby Troop Unit for the calculation of how many models control the objective.
3. Re-work his weapon to be something like "slay a non-vehicle model, roll a die for each enemy non-vehicle model within 6", 4+ that model's unit takes a mortal wound"
4. Army he is Warlord of can take 2 artifacts for free. Stratagem can be used to buy 3rd and 4th for normal costs.
Besides the single Faction Army issue, I think Commander Dante from the Blood Angels should have grant +3 CP if he is the Warlord. He is one of the best generals in the whole Galaxy!
I would like to see a rule that if toughness is more than double the strength of a weapon then it can not be hurt. Str 3 can hurt toughness 6 on a 6, but str 3 can’t hurt toughness 7.
Str 4 can still hurt toughness 8, but not 9.
And for Gods sake remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists. They are not astartes and should not get to use veterans of the long war.
For the CPs, they could just have criteria you can meet for bonuses. For example:
Battle forged: 3 CP All detachments share a codex faction (ie, space marine, Tau, orks, dark eldar, etc): 2 CP All detachments share the same codex sub faction: 2 CP (stacks with the previous one).
For every 100 points of troops: 1 CP For every 200 points of HQs: 1 CP
This way your average pure faction army would have something like 13 CP (3 for battle forged, 4 for pure faction, 2 for 400 points in HQs, and 4 for 400 points of troops), which I think is a reasonable amount, and you could always get more by putting more points into troops.
If you wanted to mix subfactions (such as ultramarines and ravenguard), you can do so at the cost of 2 CP. If you want to ally in something else (such as imperial guard and ravenguard) it would cost you 4.
This would make a typical allies army have 9 CP, which seems okay to me. It's still definitely worth doing if you want to, but no longer a no brainier / required to be competitive, and can still be offset by bringing more troops.
2. Objective secured (Their number is Legion, Their name is death) on himself and nearby non-Troop Unit. OR he adds himself to the count for a nearby Troop Unit for the calculation of how many models control the objective.
3. Re-work his weapon to be something like "slay a non-vehicle model, roll a die for each enemy non-vehicle model within 6", 4+ that model's unit takes a mortal wound"
4. Army he is Warlord of can take 2 artifacts for free. Stratagem can be used to buy 3rd and 4th for normal costs.
I'd suggest a slight alteration to #4 in that Trazyn should get the extra artefact.
I'd also suggest that he be able to steal the artefact from any character he kills in a fight - either using it himself or else maybe getting d3 CPs as a reward.
2. Objective secured (Their number is Legion, Their name is death) on himself and nearby non-Troop Unit. OR he adds himself to the count for a nearby Troop Unit for the calculation of how many models control the objective.
3. Re-work his weapon to be something like "slay a non-vehicle model, roll a die for each enemy non-vehicle model within 6", 4+ that model's unit takes a mortal wound"
4. Army he is Warlord of can take 2 artifacts for free. Stratagem can be used to buy 3rd and 4th for normal costs.
I'd suggest a slight alteration to #4 in that Trazyn should get the extra artefact.
I'd also suggest that he be able to steal the artefact from any character he kills in a fight - either using it himself or else maybe getting d3 CPs as a reward.
Well, technically his staff would be considered an artifact, one that he automatically gets without using up the artifact for the rest of the army, so maybe ignore #4.
The only issue with the any character fighting bonuses is the problem of getting characters to fight each other. Most armies hide their characters now because their bonuses are worth more than their combat abilities.
jcd386 wrote: I think making it so you can only pick your warlord from your largest detachment, and only gaining CP from detachments that match your warlord's faction would be a solid fix for the CP / allies issue.
Assuming they aren't going to make detailed rules changes, points costs for infantry need to go down for elite infantry and up for chaff.
Some general points increases should be made based on the following:
4++ or better invul saves need to cost more, especially on large vehicles. 5++ saves should be valued less, especially on infantry with good armor saves ie terminators.
2+ and 3+ armor saves need to be valued less.
2W infantry need to be valued less.
And specific rules changes id llike to see in addition to points reductions:
Chaos Marines should be able to take bolters, chainswords, and pistols.
Rhinos should have two fire points again
All power armor and Terminator armor squad units in elite slots should get BS/WS2+.
Flamers, melta and grav need to be buffed/changed. Grav could be assault 2, melta could do 3 damage to vehicles on a damage roll of 1, 2 or 3, and flamers could have unlimited range and ignore LoS during overwatch, and do 2d6 hits, with a hits per model max of 1 to 1 (or 2 or 3 to 1 for the bigger flamers).
OC Plasma needs to do mortal wounds so it isn't killing razorbacks or characters, but should always do a mortal wound on a 1 before any rerolls. You can reroll it and apply the result, but you still take the MW.
Something like that.
Yes, yes and yes! Only Astartes flamers? I think they're okayish atm. Maybe range increase but not much else imo. The rest all agreed, this is the realistic approach to changing Astartes
Well, technically his staff would be considered an artifact, one that he automatically gets without using up the artifact for the rest of the army, so maybe ignore #4.
But that's the thing - he's supposed to be a collector of artefacts - not just a guy who owns a single artefact.
The only issue with the any character fighting bonuses is the problem of getting characters to fight each other. Most armies hide their characters now because their bonuses are worth more than their combat abilities.
Yeah, it was meant as a flavour rule more than a power one.
jcd386 wrote: I think making it so you can only pick your warlord from your largest detachment, and only gaining CP from detachments that match your warlord's faction would be a solid fix for the CP / allies issue.
Assuming they aren't going to make detailed rules changes, points costs for infantry need to go down for elite infantry and up for chaff.
Some general points increases should be made based on the following:
4++ or better invul saves need to cost more, especially on large vehicles. 5++ saves should be valued less, especially on infantry with good armor saves ie terminators.
2+ and 3+ armor saves need to be valued less.
2W infantry need to be valued less.
And specific rules changes id llike to see in addition to points reductions:
Chaos Marines should be able to take bolters, chainswords, and pistols.
Rhinos should have two fire points again
All power armor and Terminator armor squad units in elite slots should get BS/WS2+.
Flamers, melta and grav need to be buffed/changed. Grav could be assault 2, melta could do 3 damage to vehicles on a damage roll of 1, 2 or 3, and flamers could have unlimited range and ignore LoS during overwatch, and do 2d6 hits, with a hits per model max of 1 to 1 (or 2 or 3 to 1 for the bigger flamers).
OC Plasma needs to do mortal wounds so it isn't killing razorbacks or characters, but should always do a mortal wound on a 1 before any rerolls. You can reroll it and apply the result, but you still take the MW.
Something like that.
Yes, yes and yes! Only Astartes flamers? I think they're okayish atm. Maybe range increase but not much else imo. The rest all agreed, this is the realistic approach to changing Astartes
Well no I think all flamers should be like that. I just play imperium so those are my examples.
I don't know if it's possible to have all weapons be perfectly balanced, but I'd love for them all to be good at their specific jobs.
1. Adding Admech keyword compatibility to any Imperium transport out there. Ruststalkers have very limited (close to none) sense without a transportation. Eletro-priests alike - currently they are hard-wired into a single effective (if you go first) tactic which is a Stygies stratagem infiltration. For such a short codex as Admech's a further limitation of the options is not a smart balancing move me thinks.
2. Servitors from elites section are nowhere worth the points they're at now, or being elites in the first place - WS/BS5+ unit (needing a Tech-priest nearby to improve both to 4+). They either need a solid buff in stats to 3+ when a Tech-priest is nearby, or a solid points drop (but what is costly in servitors are the weapons as a bare servitor is 2pts... and droping him to 0 wouldn't be nearly enough). 4 models cap in a servitor unit nails the coffin.
3. Skitarii HQ - yeah right, I know. One can dream.
All
flamers 9"
Sniper rifle -1pt
Melta -2pt
Non-sword power weapons -1pt
Servitors need a massive point decrease make the servo arm cheap or change it so you can just take heavy weapons
Admech
Kataphron-10pts
3pt off ruststalkers/infiltrators
+1 dam to arc weaponry
Restore 7th edition phosperous rule
Fix master of machines so can repair imperial vehicles
1pt off rangers/vanguard
Dunecrawler gain leamon russ grinding advance rule
Skirtarii detachments change HQ slots to optional
Sm
Sm 1pt of power armour infantry models 3 off terminator equivalent.
1 points off jump pack
Dreadnaughts -10pts
IQ
Inquisitors faction type to all imperium and may hq any imperial detatchment
Jokaero -5pts
Guard
Hwt 3-6 models per unit
Yarick -20pts (to help rebalance non catachans)
Fortifications
Occupying units grant BS via strategem
-pts = Wx2
Allow multi unit occupancy like transports
Tau Crisis suits down 10 points a model, to make them competitive with other units in that codex.
Grey Knights get access to a second psychic discipline.
Cap hit modifiers on a model at -2. Attackers can still add further minuses from movement, power fists, etc.
Don't know if there's a Ynnari codex yet, but if there is, something in it will probably be broken. Just saying.
More realistic tier:
Give Grey Knight characters big boy Smite. Other Grey Knights get 1 mortal wound, but standard range.
Point drops to Grey Knight units across the board, as a band-aid fix to buff that codex into something closer to viability.
Go through and re-point Forge World units to match their codex equivalents. E.g. balancing index FW Knights to current codex Knights points values, index Hammerheads to codex Hammerheads, maybe even fix that stupid Hellhound that's randomly undercosted, etc.
Harlequins If the faqs coming out already doesnt Suit of Knives, changed to "Unmodified rolls of 1" Note, for those that dont know, it treats all melee attacks against the Troupe Master like Plasma rule (hits of 1 does a MW, but with an added rule, for ever 1, you need to roll a 2+ to actually do the MW), but Harlequins can make you -2 to hit easily, -3 most the time, and -4 to hit sometimes, meaning if you are -2 to hit, and you normally are a 3+ to hit, rolls of 1, 2, and 3 you take a MW on a 2+ and you only hit on a 5+, it is easy to get -3, that means 50% the time you are taking a MW and only hitting on 6+, 1 80pt character with a power and a stratagem or 2 could kill off a full unit of 30 man Boyz without attacking
Custodes Shield Capt on Dawneagle +10-20pts Bikes + 5-10pts
I for one find it ridiculous that I have to manage Warlord Traits, Chapter Traits, Command Points, and Stratagems. It's like a bunch of people at GW were throwing out ideas in a meeting, trying to decide what game mechanic they were going to do with, when someone wearing a big hat said "Screw it, it's late. We'll use ALL the ideas. Just as long as the Force Org chart gets thrown out the window."
Wishlisting but I think a universal stratagem for all armies to have some sort of access to deny the witch would be welcome.
Maybe another universal stratagem that is one use only, and nullifies a single mortal wound per game. That way you at least feel like you have some kind of recourse in your back pocket.
The thing that bothers me about mortal wounds is gameplay wise often your opponent just rolls dice and you have no way to interact with the outcome. It doesn't feel strategic or fun without at least some options to choose from.
DarthDiggler wrote: And for Gods sake remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists. They are not astartes and should not get to use veterans of the long war.
I certainly agree with this. In general I don’t think cultists should have the <Legion> keyword either. The ability to flood the board with cultists is really silly.
That said, the CSM book is a total mess all-round. It feels harsh to pick on one element that’s too good when so much is not good enough. But actually both are because of thoughtless design and both need fixing.
Poor old GKs need an urgent fix. I think CSM need it almost as much. It’s not that their book is useless, it’s that the decent armies you can make bear no relation to how the army is supposed to look.
Actually I would argue that a few lords and chaos spacemarines and demon engines with a mass of cultists is actually more fluffy than pure choas spacemarine armies.
But yes cultist need a reworking they should be a mass of cheap bodies bit without the legion and hertic astartes keywords.
Also all the early power armour codex's need some love to address the internal and external balance inconsistency.
- A general points reduction on most/all SM units. A lot of these could do with a 15-25% points reduction.
- Some Stratagems and new rules to help them out a bit.
- Open up the Vehicle design rules for Matched play and more vehicles like Predators, Storm ravens, Razorbacks etc.
What I expect:
- More fluff and gak for missions that I will most likely have no interest in.
- Points increases because GW
Gunrunner1775 wrote: I can only speak to the issues in the meta in my local gameing area
1) total and complete elimination of CP regeneration
2) buff small elite armies so that the WL gives them X amount of CP (similar to Calgar / Girlyman buff that increases CP) so that they start out with a "reasonable" amount of CP --- The increase in CP that went live last FAQ, was nice, but bit much when factoring in the CP regen abilities
3) fix las-cannon spam (or any type of anti-tank weapon spam) ..even with the rule of 3, the sheer quantity of las-cannons deployed has resulted in almost no one useing any sort of vehicles, its all foot sloggin infantry nowadays for the most part (there are the rare exceptions )
- increase cost of las-cannons to 35 points or change the stats (something like, las-cannon does d3 wounds, on 6+ to wound does d6 wounds perhaps?) various ideas have been tossed around here, but no one can come up with a solid plan on how to fix this issue
Damn, I wish I played in this meta. Lascannons get butchered by dark eldar and Harlequins.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dadamowsky wrote: 1. Adding Admech keyword compatibility to any Imperium transport out there. Ruststalkers have very limited (close to none) sense without a transportation. Eletro-priests alike - currently they are hard-wired into a single effective (if you go first) tactic which is a Stygies stratagem infiltration. For such a short codex as Admech's a further limitation of the options is not a smart balancing move me thinks.
2. Servitors from elites section are nowhere worth the points they're at now, or being elites in the first place - WS/BS5+ unit (needing a Tech-priest nearby to improve both to 4+). They either need a solid buff in stats to 3+ when a Tech-priest is nearby, or a solid points drop (but what is costly in servitors are the weapons as a bare servitor is 2pts... and droping him to 0 wouldn't be nearly enough). 4 models cap in a servitor unit nails the coffin.
3. Skitarii HQ - yeah right, I know. One can dream.
The worst part is I own an Admech transport. Ive legitimately graduated college started a career and gotten married in the time it's taken FW to give it 40k rules.
For CSM :
- Remove the "Legion" keyworld" for cultist, but make a rule that they dont remove the Legion bonus of a detachment (like Cypher and Fabius Bile).
- Can Lucius the Eternal get at least the same invu than a regular chaos lord ?
- Give a +2 bonus for the charge roll of a jetpack unit coming from deepstrike (because : jetpack) for CSM et SM units.
- Give Daemonic machinae spirit for all the.. demonic engine (Defiler, Forgefiends, Heldrake) and give them either the Legion bonus or their God bonus.
- Give the same damn rule of the webmay gate to the loyalist Drop pod.
with the exception of plasma pistols, I personally have all but stoped takeing plasma guns/cannons with my marines in favor of las-cannons
now if all plasma was boosted by +1 damage (2 damage base, 3 damage overcharge) I might reconsider, combine with a points increase in las-cannons as suggested befor
the meta in your area might be different, so take this suggestion with some salt
Command points is a HUGE issue in some areas and needs a complete review, many suggestions seem good, everyone should come up with ideas and play test those in your gameing groups and post the results... play LOTS of games with those theoretical rules, not just one or two..discuss / modify / rinse and repeat
--- I like the ideas of pure armies getting a bonus CP --- I like the ideas of the total complete removal of all CP regeneration, and replace with small bonus to CP for those WL traits / relics what not that previously gave CP regeneration
--- I like the idea that "allied" detachments can only spend CP on the stratagems from the base rule book and not their codex (so command re-roll, auto pass moral , melee interupt ONLY )
DarthDiggler wrote: And for Gods sake remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists. They are not astartes and should not get to use veterans of the long war.
I certainly agree with this. In general I don’t think cultists should have the <Legion> keyword either. The ability to flood the board with cultists is really silly.
That said, the CSM book is a total mess all-round. It feels harsh to pick on one element that’s too good when so much is not good enough. But actually both are because of thoughtless design and both need fixing.
Poor old GKs need an urgent fix. I think CSM need it almost as much. It’s not that their book is useless, it’s that the decent armies you can make near no relation to how the army is supposed to look.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. If cultists are to be nerfed again, something has to be done about the other 95 percent of the codex that is worthless. All the cult units, all the daemon engines, tactical marines, overcosted transports.
New Knights need that Lance rule FAQed out of existence or made into a carrot rather than a stick.
Lance rule?
Only getting Command Points for Super-heavy Detachments if they include any combination of three or more Dominus and Questoris class Knights. There are parts of the actual codex that specifically state such a detachment with three Knights, one being an Armiger, would receive the usual three Command Points for the detachment, yet the rules contradict that. Warhammer Community also stated one of the great things about Armigers was that they generate cheaper Command Points for Imperial Knight armies....which the Knight Lance rule exposes as a mistake. There's a blatant disconnect between the rules writers and everyone else involved in both the making of the codex and their media team, apparently.
It's also a change from the Chapter Approved rules, which gave you a free character for having any Super-Heavy Detachment with only Questor Imperialis or Mechanicus models in it, which is what we were promised with Armigers.
Gunrunner1775 wrote: with the exception of plasma pistols, I personally have all but stoped takeing plasma guns/cannons with my marines in favor of las-cannons
now if all plasma was boosted by +1 damage (2 damage base, 3 damage overcharge) I might reconsider, combine with a points increase in las-cannons as suggested befor
the meta in your area might be different, so take this suggestion with some salt
Command points is a HUGE issue in some areas and needs a complete review, many suggestions seem good, everyone should come up with ideas and play test those in your gameing groups and post the results... play LOTS of games with those theoretical rules, not just one or two..discuss / modify / rinse and repeat
--- I like the ideas of pure armies getting a bonus CP --- I like the ideas of the total complete removal of all CP regeneration, and replace with small bonus to CP for those WL traits / relics what not that previously gave CP regeneration
--- I like the idea that "allied" detachments can only spend CP on the stratagems from the base rule book and not their codex (so command re-roll, auto pass moral , melee interupt ONLY )
Just no guard is strong enough without a plasma boost and plasma is there optimal weapon. Sure its not the optimal for SM but you have higher BS so your make more out of the more expensive weapons.
While I dislike the concept of CP Few players at matched play events want to go back to mono faction armies maybe in open play I don't see why pure faction lists should get preferential treatment as they already have it via synergy boosts e.g. (Character bubbles almost all only effect units of that faction. Guard can't order SM units etc. Reducing CP iin battallions is probably enough
What do I expect from Chapter Approved 2018 (in December of 2018)?
* More Scenerios
* Beta Sister of Battle Rules
* Publishing of the Official Rules Updates for Matched Play
* Absolutely no other army specific rules, because those will be in the FAQ/Errata documents, with possible exceptions for updates on Assassin, Inquisitor, and Sisters of Silence detachments for Matched Play
* Possibly updates to Battleforged army creation, possibly only for Matched and/or Tournament Play
* Modest Matched Play Points updates
What do we need? In addition to everything above:
* Complete rebalancing of Matched Play Points for every Codex with complete printing of all Points Values for every Codex for one-stop shopping
Points changes should be downloadable PDF content instead of purchase of a new book and attached to the individual army FAQ's that are on the official website
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: For CSM :
- Remove the "Legion" keyworld" for cultist, but make a rule that they dont remove the Legion bonus of a detachment (like Cypher and Fabius Bile).
So remove Cultists from the meta entirely? Seems a little overkill after the Tide nerf.
- Kyribdis needs a point drop; whoever thought it needed to be the same cost as a Land Raider doesn't understand what a Land Raider brings to the table beyond the metal hawks part of it.
- Blood Slaughterers and Maulerfiends need a very slight point drop as well. When a double chainclaw Contemptor is 163 points and a Blood Slaughterer is 180 points something is wrong. I feel like they kind of understand this, hence the Contemptor point drop in the first place, but they need to keep going. Dedicated melee units across the board need point reductions.
- Hellwrights should buff Daemon Engines in addition to Hellforged units they already buff.
- Zhufor needs to buff World Eaters. He's a great unit but the fact his aura is selfish pushes me away.
- Fix the PL of all the FW units. No idea why this wasn't addressed last CA. It's annoying me I can't deep strike Uraka for 1 CP because his PL is still 9.
- For the love of all that is holy please buff Renegades and Heretics in some way shape or form. Give us Stratagems and relics. Give us unique characters. Give us SOMETHING to make taking them worth SOMETHING. Right now it's just a complete waste of points.
- Possessed need a point drop. I think their stats are fine though if they were Toughness 5 I'd be fine with their current point cost and they'd have a role as shock troops.
- Chosen need a role. I'm fine with their points just give them some kind of special rule or something to make them unique. Maybe something like, "Declare an Ally Character of the same Legion at the start of the game. As long as the Chosen unit is within 6 inches of that Character, they have a 5++." Suddenly Chosen are the elite bodyguards they've always wanted to be.
- Further reduce the point cost of Kharn OR increase his movement speed. He should not cost as much as a Daemon Prince. Also give Kharn back his increased psykic defense.
- More Stratagems, Relics, Powers, and special rules for the legions without codex releases.
- Quality of life change like more CP if your army is mono-god would also help a lot.
If we're talking purely changes for the health of the game...
- CP is locked to detachment that generated it, and no free 3 CP at base. So if I have a guard battalion, an admech Battalion, and a Knight detachment, the guard get 5, the admech get 5, and the knights get 3. That's it, 13CP, do not pass go, do not collect your free 3 CP at base, if your IG company commander generates 5 free CP over the course of the game, awesome, only the IG can use it.
- Warlord locked to the "dominant" detachment, be that by points or PL I don't care. A guard company commander is not leading a force of friggin custodes, Imperial Knights, Space Marines, or really anything other than a pretty much pure IG and maybe some Admech or Sisters. If you want to go for the gold even in a pure army the Warlord must be in the biggest detachment, but I'd honestly be fine with it just being considered by faction.
- Pure armies where every model in the army shares the dominant keyword (aka a pure Ultramarines army with 0 allies, or a guard list that is 100% Cadians and the allowed exceptions like commissars) get the free 3 CP base that we traditionally start with now.
- Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll. Part of what makes plasma so insane is that there are so many ways to ignore the 1's and make it where it's pretty much a no brainer to overcharge. Bam, you've given plasma an actual downside for once that actually comes up in every game and doesn't lead to a guardsman killing himself 66% of the time he shoots at an Eldar flyer.
- Limit of one roll to generate CP each time you have a chance to do so, just like "Feel No Pain" is treated now. You shouldn't have two chances to regen a CP off of a single enemy strategem or your own.
- Shooting and CQC (if there is some way to debuff CQC hit chance) will always hit at worst on a natural 6. I don't get why we have everything able to wound everything now but there are instances where it's literally impossible to hit your target.
That little list does a lot to curb in shenanigans across the board, and puts mono codex armies like Tau and Orks on a much more even playing field. May not fix everything but it'd fix most.
Gunrunner1775 wrote: with the exception of plasma pistols, I personally have all but stoped takeing plasma guns/cannons with my marines in favor of las-cannons
now if all plasma was boosted by +1 damage (2 damage base, 3 damage overcharge) I might reconsider, combine with a points increase in las-cannons as suggested befor
the meta in your area might be different, so take this suggestion with some salt
Command points is a HUGE issue in some areas and needs a complete review, many suggestions seem good, everyone should come up with ideas and play test those in your gameing groups and post the results... play LOTS of games with those theoretical rules, not just one or two..discuss / modify / rinse and repeat
--- I like the ideas of pure armies getting a bonus CP --- I like the ideas of the total complete removal of all CP regeneration, and replace with small bonus to CP for those WL traits / relics what not that previously gave CP regeneration
--- I like the idea that "allied" detachments can only spend CP on the stratagems from the base rule book and not their codex (so command re-roll, auto pass moral , melee interupt ONLY )
Just no guard is strong enough without a plasma boost and plasma is there optimal weapon. Sure its not the optimal for SM but you have higher BS so your make more out of the more expensive weapons.
While I dislike the concept of CP Few players at matched play events want to go back to mono faction armies maybe in open play I don't see why pure faction lists should get preferential treatment as they already have it via synergy boosts e.g. (Character bubbles almost all only effect units of that faction. Guard can't order SM units etc. Reducing CP iin battallions is probably enough
The idea is that for example a Tyranid list with Kronos and Leviathan detachments would get less CP than say a mono-Kraken army. Essentially trying to curb players just using multiple factions together into a single force by way of rewarding mono-faction armies. Allies could probably count for same-faction bonus, because of course Imperium armies need the help. /s
phydaux wrote: I for one find it ridiculous that I have to manage Warlord Traits, Chapter Traits, Command Points, and Stratagems. It's like a bunch of people at GW were throwing out ideas in a meeting, trying to decide what game mechanic they were going to do with, when someone wearing a big hat said "Screw it, it's late. We'll use ALL the ideas. Just as long as the Force Org chart gets thrown out the window."
Those are all some of my favorite things about 8th edition XD
To me, those are the options that let you represent the flavor of your army mechanically. Choosing traits, tactics, etc. feels the same way choosing abilities for an RPG character does. Sure, you could represent your force through unit or weapon selection before, but that usually just boiled down to, "My faction is the <insert unit here> faction."
Personally, I don't feel like I have to "manage" traits or tactics most of the time. Generally, it's just a matter of remembering which easy-to-resolve modifier or ability I have. Alaitoc attribute? You'r eat -1 to hit me if you're not up close. Red Grief warlord trait? I save on a 3+ instead of a 4+. A I choose which of those options I take during list creation, I find them no more difficult to manage than remembering which gear I gave a sergeant or which combat drugs my wyches have.
Eldar Wraithknights need a massive points drop. They were more expensive and weaker than IKs before the codex drop. Now they are laughably poor by comparison.
Dante needs either a significant points cut or a serious buff. The guy is supposed to be the one person Gulliman considers close to an equal, the guy he made his regent in Imperium Nihilus. What does he get for his hefty price tag? A moderately competent beat stick and no special rule beyond the generic Chapter Master gaff. No wonder everyone runs Captain Smash instead.
I like how most the CP changes in this thread just screw over elite armies, particularly Custodes, with nary a care from the proposers.
Anyway, the changes I think they should make are like 20 pages long. The big issues are fixing Grey Knights, keeping allies in and flexible and increasing CP generation of elite armies.
MrMoustaffa wrote: - Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll.
No. Just no.
All people that propose that just doesn't understand, that change would kill plasma for anybody that wasnt Imperial Guard. Chaos Terminator or Marines exploding 16% of the time they are overcharging is just non viable.
Audustum wrote: I like how most the CP changes in this thread just screw over elite armies, particularly Custodes, with nary a care from the proposers.
Anyway, the changes I think they should make are like 20 pages long. The big issues are fixing Grey Knights, keeping allies in and flexible and increasing CP generation of elite armies.
Are you talking about the “only the CP the detachment made can be spent on it”? Elite armies seem to have better strategems while having access to fewer CP- seems to be a matter of balance by design. Fewer CP for better strategems.
And Grey Knights had their fun in 5th. Justice has finally been served for my exploding Hive Tyrants.
Audustum wrote: I like how most the CP changes in this thread just screw over elite armies, particularly Custodes, with nary a care from the proposers.
Anyway, the changes I think they should make are like 20 pages long. The big issues are fixing Grey Knights, keeping allies in and flexible and increasing CP generation of elite armies.
MrMoustaffa wrote: - Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll.
No. Just no.
All people that propose that just doesn't understand, that change would kill plasma for anybody that wasnt Imperial Guard. Chaos Terminator or Marines exploding 16% of the time they are overcharging is just non viable.
I disagree. First of all, the suggested change is (as far as i know) something like: "When overcharging, change damage to S8 D2, but on a natural roll of 1 to hit with this weapon, cause a mortal wound once all of the shots have been resolved. Re-rolls can still be rolled, and any successful results resolved, but mortal wounds are still taken. A 1 that has been re-rolled does not cause additional mortal wounds on a second roll of a 1."
So it would take a terminator or biker 2 fails to die. This is pretty unlikely in a single turn (1/36 i believe).
A razorback or any other vehicle would take a MW and keep going.
Characters would be able to keep on going with just a MW.
Marines, guard, and other models would die 1/6 of the time, but only because they choose to more than double the damage output of the weapon they are firing.
With it's normal profile, the plasma gun is pretty good at killing infantry and can even damage light vehicles decently. It's not a bad gun.
Being able to overcharge it to wound most tanks on a 3+ and cause double damage should either cost more initially or be dangerous. If you want to do this kind of damage consistently, you should have to mount the plasma on something more durable, or go with melta.
MrMoustaffa wrote: - Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll.
No. Just no.
All people that propose that just doesn't understand, that change would kill plasma for anybody that wasnt Imperial Guard. Chaos Terminator or Marines exploding 16% of the time they are overcharging is just non viable.
I disagree. First of all, the suggested change is (as far as i know) something like: "When overcharging, change damage to S8 D2, but on a natural roll of 1 to hit with this weapon, cause a mortal wound once all of the shots have been resolved. Re-rolls can still be rolled, and any successful results resolved, but mortal wounds are still taken. A 1 that has been re-rolled does not cause additional mortal wounds on a second roll of a 1."
So it would take a terminator or biker 2 fails to die. This is pretty unlikely in a single turn (1/36 i believe).
A razorback or any other vehicle would take a MW and keep going.
Characters would be able to keep on going with just a MW.
Marines, guard, and other models would die 1/6 of the time, but only because they choose to more than double the damage output of the weapon they are firing.
With it's normal profile, the plasma gun is pretty good at killing infantry and can even damage light vehicles decently. It's not a bad gun.
Being able to overcharge it to wound most tanks on a 3+ and cause double damage should either cost more initially or be dangerous. If you want to do this kind of damage consistently, you should have to mount the plasma on something more durable, or go with melta.
I was actually thinking about the exact same change.
Your gun shouldn’t explode more often if you fire it at Eldar, or less often if you’re stood near a captain. And it would make plasma spam much less of a thing.
If anyone should help make plasma guns not blow up its tech priests/marines. They could have a feature to oversee plasma guns rather than repair a vehicle.
phydaux wrote: I for one find it ridiculous that I have to manage Warlord Traits, Chapter Traits, Command Points, and Stratagems. It's like a bunch of people at GW were throwing out ideas in a meeting, trying to decide what game mechanic they were going to do with, when someone wearing a big hat said "Screw it, it's late. We'll use ALL the ideas. Just as long as the Force Org chart gets thrown out the window."
Those are all some of my favorite things about 8th edition XD
To me, those are the options that let you represent the flavor of your army mechanically. Choosing traits, tactics, etc. feels the same way choosing abilities for an RPG character does. Sure, you could represent your force through unit or weapon selection before, but that usually just boiled down to, "My faction is the <insert unit here> faction."
Personally, I don't feel like I have to "manage" traits or tactics most of the time. Generally, it's just a matter of remembering which easy-to-resolve modifier or ability I have. Alaitoc attribute? You'r eat -1 to hit me if you're not up close. Red Grief warlord trait? I save on a 3+ instead of a 4+. A I choose which of those options I take during list creation, I find them no more difficult to manage than remembering which gear I gave a sergeant or which combat drugs my wyches have.
I agree! the game is finally taking a direction that rewards skill, and gives many levels of customization. And also agree with not having to manage traits of tactics, you just sort of pick em in list building and it's always there...
Some people want the game dumbed down to something really mindless I guess
MrMoustaffa wrote: - Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll.
No. Just no.
All people that propose that just doesn't understand, that change would kill plasma for anybody that wasnt Imperial Guard. Chaos Terminator or Marines exploding 16% of the time they are overcharging is just non viable.
It's not just that - the suggestion goes against the entire concept of a reroll. When you reroll a dice, the original roll is discounted. For all intents and purposes, it never happened.
If the original dice is still having an effect, then you demonstrably have not rerolled it.
You'd be better off just saying 'When firing a plasmagun, you can't reroll unmodified to-hit rolls of 1 for any reason'. Still a terrible idea, but at least it doesn't put several shotgun rounds through a core game mechanic.
Audustum wrote: I like how most the CP changes in this thread just screw over elite armies, particularly Custodes, with nary a care from the proposers.
Anyway, the changes I think they should make are like 20 pages long. The big issues are fixing Grey Knights, keeping allies in and flexible and increasing CP generation of elite armies.
It only screws over armies if strategems are either immensely powerful or required for an army to function. They should be neither of those things. And even if they are, then you can reduce the CP cost of “elite” strategems since now you can guarantee they won’t be used as much.
The issue we have right now is the return of the 7th ed “psychic battery”, only with command points instead of warp charges.
MrMoustaffa wrote: - Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll.
No. Just no.
All people that propose that just doesn't understand, that change would kill plasma for anybody that wasnt Imperial Guard. Chaos Terminator or Marines exploding 16% of the time they are overcharging is just non viable.
It's not just that - the suggestion goes against the entire concept of a reroll. When you reroll a dice, the original roll is discounted. For all intents and purposes, it never happened.
If the original dice is still having an effect, then you demonstrably have not rerolled it.
You'd be better off just saying 'When firing a plasmagun, you can't reroll unmodified to-hit rolls of 1 for any reason'. Still a terrible idea, but at least it doesn't put several shotgun rounds through a core game mechanic.
The problem is unless you completely change the profile of plasma it's about the only way to give it a downside that actually matters.
And since 8th is "all rerolls all the time" it basically means plasma's downside only matters 1/36th of the time. Unless you face craft world Altaoic, where suddenly plasma is basically just committing suicide every time you fire it. Which is really dumb. It needs an actual downside that isn't completely ignored by almost every army that has access to it through either +1 Bs abilities or reroll 1 abilities. Until plasma gets that downside, there's no point to melta when the plasma is more reliable in almost every situation.
Well, I'm hoping something similar to the Devastating Reach stratagem for IK that allows them to reach CC in Ruins from 3-6 inches from the base becomes a Universal Stratagem for all armies MCs.
Or better yet, improve the Ruins rules to include diagonal distance.
Then, as a wishlist, something to further penalize Falling Back. Take some Mortal Wounds to represent turning your back on the enemy and retreating, or offering protection for the enemy unit you just ran from: a negative to hit modifier representing troops trying to prevent friendly fire. Hell, even if it had to be a roll off type thing or cost cp or something...
Im glad sweeping advance is gone from the game, but it made sense. Retreating is a risky thing.
Idk, maybe because I play against alot of Tau and UM armies.
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: For CSM :
- Remove the "Legion" keyworld" for cultist, but make a rule that they dont remove the Legion bonus of a detachment (like Cypher and Fabius Bile).
So remove Cultists from the meta entirely? Seems a little overkill after the Tide nerf.
- Kyribdis needs a point drop; whoever thought it needed to be the same cost as a Land Raider doesn't understand what a Land Raider brings to the table beyond the metal hawks part of it.
- Blood Slaughterers and Maulerfiends need a very slight point drop as well. When a double chainclaw Contemptor is 163 points and a Blood Slaughterer is 180 points something is wrong. I feel like they kind of understand this, hence the Contemptor point drop in the first place, but they need to keep going. Dedicated melee units across the board need point reductions.
- Hellwrights should buff Daemon Engines in addition to Hellforged units they already buff.
- Zhufor needs to buff World Eaters. He's a great unit but the fact his aura is selfish pushes me away.
- Fix the PL of all the FW units. No idea why this wasn't addressed last CA. It's annoying me I can't deep strike Uraka for 1 CP because his PL is still 9.
- For the love of all that is holy please buff Renegades and Heretics in some way shape or form. Give us Stratagems and relics. Give us unique characters. Give us SOMETHING to make taking them worth SOMETHING. Right now it's just a complete waste of points.
- Possessed need a point drop. I think their stats are fine though if they were Toughness 5 I'd be fine with their current point cost and they'd have a role as shock troops.
- Chosen need a role. I'm fine with their points just give them some kind of special rule or something to make them unique. Maybe something like, "Declare an Ally Character of the same Legion at the start of the game. As long as the Chosen unit is within 6 inches of that Character, they have a 5++." Suddenly Chosen are the elite bodyguards they've always wanted to be.
- Further reduce the point cost of Kharn OR increase his movement speed. He should not cost as much as a Daemon Prince. Also give Kharn back his increased psykic defense.
- More Stratagems, Relics, Powers, and special rules for the legions without codex releases.
- Quality of life change like more CP if your army is mono-god would also help a lot.
I agree with all of these, can’t add much to what you’ve said about them. Renegades & Heretics being the most pathetic currently, I expect the least in general for any of the FW units in the forthcoming CA. I think rewriting an entire army list (or creating everything necessary to flesh them into a proper one) is so beyond a realistic expectation that I won’t hold my breath,
Revisit index-only units, Renegade knight point adjustments and token traits/stratagems the way Necrons were treated in the first CA.
Point drop for units like the Lord on Juggernaut to be in line with the codex-adjusted points. Also, give them legion traits, For Khorne’s sake, cultists get the legion bonus but a chaos lord doesn’t because he’s on a bike or a juggernaut?
As mentioned by someone earlier, please buff the poor Word Bearers. Let them move and summon. SOMETHING, Whatever it is, just make it good.
