So me and my friends are doing a 'Tale of Gamers' thing, where each of us starts up a new army and plays games against each other in escalating points values. I decided to go Imperial Fists, with an emphasis on heavyweight footsloggers and avoiding single wound models (primarily going Primaris, though I won't turn my nose up at other options), and my one friend went with Imperial Knights. And I can't for the life of me figure out how I'm supposed to beat them, especially now that they have their buffs with the new codex. They move faster than the majority of my army (or at least as fast), they out-shoot me, they out-melee me, and I need to deal at least 13 wounds against no less than T8 3+/5++ for my offense to even matter. Given the hole I've dug for myself with my model selection, I'm probably just going to concede every game against this player without even setting up unless I can find some kind of magic bullet.

What kind of counters exist within the Space Marines Codex against knights? I was thinking as many dreadnoughts as points would allow in a combination of shooty venerables (Twin LC/Twin AC) and stompy ironclads, but with their movement of 6" I fear they just won't cut it.

This is my biggest beef with IK - games tend to get very binary quickly. What I would deploy would be three quad Las preds or three quad Las devastators. Add roboute for hit and wound rerolls and you are pumping out something like 20 wounds per round.
Alternatively take some anti tank from FW.
But ultimately the pure IK matchup is a check how much firepower you have and if you can roll first turn.

Edit: spelling

I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

Everything that can hold a lascannon or an hellblaster plasma. Thunder hammers are also an option, but need rerolls to hit absolutely.
And a chapter tactics that actually does something. Like ravenguard for -1, or ultramarine for enabling guilliman.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

That's only because you aren't cool enough to play Space Wolves.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

If supported by Chalpain and Lieutenant, it still requires 13 men to relatively reliably (~64%) chances to kill an IK. If you lowered the requirement, just to severely cripple the Knight instead of killing it outrught. 10 Space Marine Veteran / Terminators are still required.

Have you started painting your Imperial Fists? Because there are much better options for a Primaris-based force...

Firstly, Ravenguard, if you want to stay codex SM. -1 to hit is very nice, but just as important is strike from the shadows. Primaris are damn hard to move around, and a number of their units really benefit from this strat, first and foremost aggressors.

Secondly, Blood Angels. Worth mentioning as Primaris are pretty handy in BA lists, as they carry a much improved CC threat. Plus your hammer-caps (see below) are terrifying.

Lastly, Deathwatch. In a lot of ways the DW codex was a straight up patch for Primaris marines. Their bolters were buffed through the roof. They can mix squads, protecting valuable models behind intercessors. They have a great, cheap chaptermaster and a very handy set of buffs. They can deepstrike, solving one of Primaris marines' biggest issues.

Regardles of whether you go IF, RG, BA or DW, I'd recommend you use a lot of hellblasters, a Dev squad, and a couple of jumppack captains with a hammer to spend alllll your CP on.

Unfortunately VVETS while lovely models their 8th edition stats aren't realy that great.
A Captain with TH SS can be backed up by VV but your still going to have overwatch to weather. But for the love of god don't try and use predators as a stand up match for a knight they are pitifully poor. Your best shoping for Contemptor Mortis Dreads, Deredeo, and Leviathans. The Leviathan is probably one of the few things that can go HH with a knight and expect to survive.

At what points level are you playing? If knights are in an auxiliary support detachment they don't get house traits and can only access relics/Warlord traits by spending CP.

The cheapest knight super heavy detachment you can field is 3 armiger warglaves at 492points. But they only have 12 wounds a piece, are T7 so easier to wound, and can't fallback and shoot. This will let the knight player take a relic and warlord trait for free (but most of the relics are weapons that the armigers can't take). However, it's worth noting that knight super heavy detachments only get 3 addition CP if they contain at least 3 dominus/questoris class knights. This means any pure knight list will at most have 3 CP bellow 1062 points and 6CP between 1062-2124 points.

Knights suffer against volumes of S5-6 shooting, heavy bolters and assault cannons. It's also worth remembering that bolters and primaris bolters with AP-1, especially with captain and lieutenant buffs will chip away at the big knights and do reasonable damage to the T7 small knights (also don't forget Krak grenades). Obviously more specialised weapons like melta and lascanons though unreliable can really ruin a knights day. Then there's melee, knights don't get their invulnerable save in melee so it makes them very vulnerable to things like thunder hammers.

Finally, the biggest weakness of knights is their inability to play the mission, they have no objective secure, low model count, and have a small footprint so struggle when it comes to area control. They also can't move through ruin walls like infantry making them a lot slower than they appear on paper on a board with any reasonable amount of terrain. The bane of knights is a squad hiding behind a ruin sitting on an objective that they can't see, knights only have one ignore line of sight weapon. When placing objectives be mindful of this, I'd also recommend spreading objectives out). This is exasebated in dynamic scoring mission where a lot of the time knights have to choose between playing the mission and destroying stuff.

TLDR: You don't need to kill knights just cripple them (as it massively affects their mobility), maneuver around terrain (remember infantry can teleport through ruin walls knights can't) this makes knights slow, use line of sight blocking terrain (as knights only have one weapon that ignores line of sight), play the mission (knights don't have enough models to control 4-6 objectives and don't have objective secure).

Hope that helps.

All you need to do is take lots of Lascannons and fire them often. Lots of tall, line of sight blocking terrain helps too.

And get a pair of big boy pants.

SJ

So far I’ve tabled knights with my crimson fists every time I’ve played against them. To be fair, this was before the codex came out. Things might be a little different now!

I’ve got three things that are good at killing knights: a lot of lascannons, 19 rapid fire hellblasters and a primaris captain with the fist of vengeance relic.

The captain is an absolute monster, and a steal at 106 points. I give him the Emperor’s Sword warlord trait. If you’ve got a lieutenant and librarian around he can do up to 21 wounds on the charge, and then another 21 if you use Honour the Chapter or Only in Death…

It’s really great to have this model hanging around in my lines. The knights will tend to approach marines, at which point you can have a repulsor soak the overwatch, then charge the captain in and knock one over.

Mortal wounds reach peak efficiency against knights as they are pretty much the most expensive points/wound army in the game, so adding a heavy bolter/cherub into devastator squads and taking librarians will help out.

Knights will normally be accompanied by cheap allies for CP farming, screening and objective holding - so don't neglect taking some form of mobile anti infantry (anything with a jump pack can hide in reserves for a turn or so until needed).

Now that stratagems and warlord traits are a thing for IK, you can expect 4++ or 3++ saves on whatever knight is the best MEQ killer, null zone on a suicide jump librarian could be a good trade.

Avoid hand to hand unless you are confident you can do any of the following:
1. kill it before it swings back at you
2. surround it and survive the turn with a unit type it cannot fall back from

I disagree about mortal wounds – especially from the psychic phase, if I am honest.

Psychic heavy forces, that can put out the MWs to kill a 28 wound Dominus in 1 turn seem great, but you need to take screens into account. Yes, there will be some lists running Knights solo, or running Armigers as MW screens, but, a lot of lists will also be running 38 wounds of Guardsmen. Sure, you can destroy the screen turn 1, but, you then have to hope that your screen survives the return firepower. You also have to consider the fact that you’ll also prob not get the +1 on the roll to go first, in which case turn 2 will hurt even more.

Of course, the above is in relation to running Thousand Sons.

When you look at other armies, like general Space Marines, you’re looking at probably 3d3 MWs from 3 smites. Unfortunately, that just isn’t going to help you take down 3 Knights and a screen, or 4-5 Knights. (not to mention cost an absolute fortune in points)

Sure, you can then add on the MWs from Hellfire Shells, but, again, it isn’t going to do as much as you want, especially when you consider that it can still miss, and your 3rd smite is on a 7+.

For Marines, I would personally stay clear of MWs in Knight matchups. 3 Preds with Killshot will likely serve you more – even 2 just shooting is going to put just as much damage out. After that it is simply additional lascannons, maybe Hellblasters, then units to deal with obsec infantry and units you can hide out of LoS on objectives for the long game.

Not going to lie. The matchup will swing completely on 4+ invuln saves and D6 damage rolls imo.

Killshot predators are a reasonably good shout, though the knight player will go first most of the time and killing a predator is going to be high up his priority list.

I like hellblasters because you can keep them tucked up safely in a repulsor during deployment. The repulsor also has a helpful four lascannons, and is pretty durable. It takes a lot of battlecannon or Gatling cannon shots to kill one, though you do have to watch out for the thermal cannons. Volcano lances look like rather bad news too!

Anyway the point of the repulsor is to protect your hellblasters and reduce your drop count, not to live forever. I took a 2k army with 7 drops to the LGT and out-deployed everyone I faced. If a knight dies in its deployment zone on turn 1 things will look an awful lot rosier for you than once they start jogging towards you.

Kdash wrote:
I disagree about mortal wounds – especially from the psychic phase, if I am honest.

Psychic heavy forces, that can put out the MWs to kill a 28 wound Dominus in 1 turn seem great, but you need to take screens into account. Yes, there will be some lists running Knights solo, or running Armigers as MW screens, but, a lot of lists will also be running 38 wounds of Guardsmen. Sure, you can destroy the screen turn 1, but, you then have to hope that your screen survives the return firepower. You also have to consider the fact that you’ll also prob not get the +1 on the roll to go first, in which case turn 2 will hurt even more.

Of course, the above is in relation to running Thousand Sons.

When you look at other armies, like general Space Marines, you’re looking at probably 3d3 MWs from 3 smites. Unfortunately, that just isn’t going to help you take down 3 Knights and a screen, or 4-5 Knights. (not to mention cost an absolute fortune in points)

Sure, you can then add on the MWs from Hellfire Shells, but, again, it isn’t going to do as much as you want, especially when you consider that it can still miss, and your 3rd smite is on a 7+.

For Marines, I would personally stay clear of MWs in Knight matchups. 3 Preds with Killshot will likely serve you more – even 2 just shooting is going to put just as much damage out. After that it is simply additional lascannons, maybe Hellblasters, then units to deal with obsec infantry and units you can hide out of LoS on objectives for the long game.

Not going to lie. The matchup will swing completely on 4+ invuln saves and D6 damage rolls imo.

Sorry was in a rush so probably wasn't clear. I'm not advising to take just librarians and smite your way to victory, just that mortal wounds are points efficient as they will be coming from things you already want to take - lascannon platforms are a given so a devastator squad or two with one bolter and cherub isn't a tax and will cause wounds:

lascannon vs t8/5++ (1 shot/3+ hit/3+ wound/5++ save/d6 damage) = average 1.04 wounds
heavy bolter + hellfire shells + signum + cherub vs t8/5++ (2 shots/2+ hit/d3 damage) = average 3.33 wounds

Not going to kill anything on it's own (but nothing in the marine codex will), MW will help you get there a bit faster though. Most of the rest of the suggestions on here are good, but can be countered to a point by IK tactics (in particular, rotate ion shields), the only point I could add would be for killshot predators to be used specifically to try and mess with the opponents priorities - declare your first predator to shoot at target A to bait out rotate ion shields, then all subsequent shots into target B, you may have to settle for killing your second highest priority enemy - but a dead knight is a dead knight.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I know they aren't the greatest, but a squad of THSS Terminators or Vanguard Veterans will rip through a Knight.

If unsupported, you need 16 marines veterans arming Thurnder Hammer to reliabily (i.e. having more tgan 66% chances) cripple (not killing it, just drop it down to the last states" an IK.

Then they better be supported.

Just reminds me how stupid it is there isn't a Terminator Lieutenant.

If supported by Chalpain and Lieutenant, it still requires 13 men to relatively reliably (~64%) chances to kill an IK. If you lowered the requirement, just to severely cripple the Knight instead of killing it outrught. 10 Space Marine Veteran / Terminators are still required.

Which Is also too expensive when they'll just use their feet and gain back a lot of points you just tried to spend.

You basically need Killshot Predators with a Chapter Master and Lt. along with HK Missiles on those. Also a shame that Tremor Shells don't do a darn thing to Knights.

Otherwise you're stuck with Grav Leviathan Dreads or kinda throwing everyone under Roboute. Again.

There are a handful of things I’m gathering from these posts:

1) Get a las pred or three. I didn’t want them, but they’re mandatory if I want to stand any chance of dropping a knight, let alone three or four. Even crunching the numbers for other units, nothing comes close. Unfortunately, it looks like the Rule of Three will keep me from getting Killshot off more than once a game, as I can expect at least one predator will die due to return fire, and that’s assuming I get to shoot first. The Leviathans seem like an alright option, though. That 4++ is going to help keep them around a little longer. Might have to kitbash some up.

2) I chose the only chapter with no useful benefits because, of course, any choice I make is the weakest one. Unfortunately, I’ve already been painting plenty of my dudes up, so my options at this point are to either whip up 750-1000 points in a week while working a full time job and chuck what I’ve done so far, or just be ‘Imperial Fists but counts-as [chapter].’ I really wanted to do the yellow scheme, cause I don’t see it that often. I guess there’s a reason for that.

3) Even though my friends have vastly more time to dedicate to this hobby, it is up to me to learn and memorize not only my own rules and limitations but theirs as well. In the game that prompted this post, my friend’s knights were just walking through walls, and another friend assured me this was the way it worked. I mean, I was working under the assumption that four-story tall factory walls might have impeded a knight’s movement right up until his first turn, but what the feth do I know? But before I go flying off the handle at my usual opponents, can I get a solid reference or two (or three, or ten) to the rules that dictate that knights cannot move through obstructions like walls and ruins? I am absolutely certain both of them would contest the claim.

EDIT: I forgot to clarify some things in case I didn't already - our next game will be at 750, so I'm anticipating a knight and an armiger that I'll have to destroy. Is that even possible at such a low points level?

Axle_Gear wrote:
There are a handful of things I’m gathering from these posts:

1) Get a las pred or three. I didn’t want them, but they’re mandatory if I want to stand any chance of dropping a knight, let alone three or four. Even crunching the numbers for other units, nothing comes close. Unfortunately, it looks like the Rule of Three will keep me from getting Killshot off more than once a game, as I can expect at least one predator will die due to return fire, and that’s assuming I get to shoot first. The Leviathans seem like an alright option, though. That 4++ is going to help keep them around a little longer. Might have to kitbash some up.

2) I chose the only chapter with no useful benefits because, of course, any choice I make is the weakest one. Unfortunately, I’ve already been painting plenty of my dudes up, so my options at this point are to either whip up 750-1000 points in a week while working a full time job and chuck what I’ve done so far, or just be ‘Imperial Fists but counts-as [chapter].’ I really wanted to do the yellow scheme, cause I don’t see it that often. I guess there’s a reason for that.

3) Even though my friends have vastly more time to dedicate to this hobby, it is up to me to learn and memorize not only my own rules and limitations but theirs as well. In the game that prompted this post, my friend’s knights were just walking through walls, and another friend assured me this was the way it worked. I mean, I was working under the assumption that four-story tall factory walls might have impeded a knight’s movement right up until his first turn, but what the feth do I know? But before I go flying off the handle at my usual opponents, can I get a solid reference or two (or three, or ten) to the rules that dictate that knights cannot move through obstructions like walls and ruins? I am absolutely certain both of them would contest the claim.

EDIT: I forgot to clarify some things in case I didn't already - our next game will be at 750, so I'm anticipating a knight and an armiger that I'll have to destroy. Is that even possible at such a low points level?

1) The x3 las Preds are effective, but with full rerolls (a chapter master and LT is enough with the strat, but Roboute is generally better) they still only do about 15 wounds to a knight with a 3++ (warlord trait 4++ with rotate ion shields. They will do more damage if you spread out their fire to 5++ knights, but that's not always ideal either. Probably the best idea is to shoot at one knight with one pred, hope they pop the shields, then focus everything else on another target. But there really isn't a great way around it that I know of.

A leviathan is also a good option. Ideally, you run it as DW to hide it in deepstrike until it can show up and unload on a knight. If you have a watch captain around and use the +1 to wound strat, you can chip off an average 6-7 wounds with the Melta Lance weapon against a knight with a 3++ (4++ is .10 wounds, 5++ is 13, and if you somehow got a null zone off you would do 20 wounds on average).

That brings me to how good null zone is. Anything you can do to get a librarian with null zone within 6" of a knight, you should do. With the weapons that matter, not having an invul save reduces a knights defensive ability by anywhere from 20-300% depending on the invul save and the AP of the weapon.

2) Ideally, you should paint your marines a non-chapter specific color, make up some cool fluff, and then use whatever rules you want to. This lets you add BA, SW, GK, etc to your army without having 7 whole marine armies. Obviously this doesn't appeal to everyone, so you do you.

3) Units can never move THROUGH terrain unless their is a specific exception. This is clear on page 177 of the rule book under the Moving paragraph "It (a model) cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery." So, they can technically climb OVER terrain, but it counts against their movement. Then, when you start using the rules for ruins (i think most people do) they have a few exceptions on page 248 "Unless they have FLY, VEHICLES, MONSTERS and BIKES can only end their movement on the ground floor of ruins" and then there is a specific rule allowing INFANTRY to move through the walls of ruins, but no one else can. This means that there is no way for a knight to move 4 stories up and then down again most ruins with their movement value. That's my understanding, anyway.

Only infantry can move through the walls of ruins. Vehicles have to go around them unless they have fly (not knights). Hills, woods, and most other terrain don't have these restrictions, but no, a knight can't walk through a 4 story building. This is on page 248 of the rule book under "ruins."

4) At 750 points the only legal IK lists are:
3 little knights (and no 3 CP) + other non knight stuff stuff or perhaps 1 more little knight.
1 big knight and 2 little knights (this would be fairly limited as to what could be taken - only the Perceptor, Errant, Gallant, and Warden are cheap enough for 750 with two smaller knights), and he would only have 3CP in his whole list.
1 big knight and 1 little knight in SEPARATE heavy aux detachments (this means they can't have any traits and don't get the 3 CP.)

At this points level it will be very difficult to kill a knight over the course of the game. The game is really designed around 2000 points, so things like this are difficult. Probably the only thing you could hope for is to get a null zone off on the knight and do enough damage for it to start mattering, and/or try to avoid him and play to the mission.

Axle_Gear wrote:
There are a handful of things I’m gathering from these posts:

1) Get a las pred or three. I didn’t want them, but they’re mandatory if I want to stand any chance of dropping a knight, let alone three or four. Even crunching the numbers for other units, nothing comes close. Unfortunately, it looks like the Rule of Three will keep me from getting Killshot off more than once a game, as I can expect at least one predator will die due to return fire, and that’s assuming I get to shoot first. The Leviathans seem like an alright option, though. That 4++ is going to help keep them around a little longer. Might have to kitbash some up.

2) I chose the only chapter with no useful benefits because, of course, any choice I make is the weakest one. Unfortunately, I’ve already been painting plenty of my dudes up, so my options at this point are to either whip up 750-1000 points in a week while working a full time job and chuck what I’ve done so far, or just be ‘Imperial Fists but counts-as [chapter].’ I really wanted to do the yellow scheme, cause I don’t see it that often. I guess there’s a reason for that.

3) Even though my friends have vastly more time to dedicate to this hobby, it is up to me to learn and memorize not only my own rules and limitations but theirs as well. In the game that prompted this post, my friend’s knights were just walking through walls, and another friend assured me this was the way it worked. I mean, I was working under the assumption that four-story tall factory walls might have impeded a knight’s movement right up until his first turn, but what the feth do I know? But before I go flying off the handle at my usual opponents, can I get a solid reference or two (or three, or ten) to the rules that dictate that knights cannot move through obstructions like walls and ruins? I am absolutely certain both of them would contest the claim.

EDIT: I forgot to clarify some things in case I didn't already - our next game will be at 750, so I'm anticipating a knight and an armiger that I'll have to destroy. Is that even possible at such a low points level?

On point 2) there is usually no problem in playing an army with different rules than the paints. Models are there to stick, while rules change. Who knows if in 9th edition everything will change again? Don't mind this aspect that much. In official GW tournaments you'll find that if you paint an Ultramarine army, you'll need to play them as Ultramarines, but in other enviroments, especially between friends it's all cool.

On 3) it's all in the basic ruleset. "When a model moves it cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery." Simple as that. Then in the Batlefield terrain section you'll find special rules for various terrains. Then in the Knight datasheet you have this piece "When this model Falls Back, it can move over enemy INFANTRY and SWARM models, though it must end its move more than 1" from any enemy units". This should cover all movement rules with said model. Usually you can agree beforehand what terrain is considered impassable for both armies.

At 750pt he could deploy a Valiant and an Armiger Warglaive, or any "normal knight" with any type of armiger.

You can Null Zone the inv. save, no?

Yeah, but getting that null zone off...Even with no deny, that's only what, like 50% chance. I feel like knights return the game to what everyone disliked in 5th ed with vehicles, single rolls deciding between unhurt and dead with no in between.

You could always cheese it yourself and go with a marine super heavy tank destroyer
But, seriously, pretty much any sort of several hundred point model is imbalanced at low point counts, there's almost no ways to deal with them except by bringing your own.

Only other marine idea I've got is go Slamguineous BA, drop in the captains and try to smash it on the charge. Maybe also include a min AM for more CPs and a bunch of bodies to grab objectives in case they fail or die to the armiger after.

I’ve suggested it in other threads, but my current bright idea is to try Inquisition allies for the Dominate psychic power, either a supreme command or vanguard. You get one of those inquisitors within 18” of a knight with a volcano lance...

As mentioned before playing the mission is the key to beating knights. Even more so at low points like 750 where the game gets really swingy.

That being said it sounds like your opponents are playing loose with the rules. So here's some tricks for your arsenal.

Trick 1 - To see whether a unit has made the charge it has to make it within 1" of an enemy model and you measure base to base even for knights. As knights can't move up floors this means that can't attack models in the 1st , 2nd, 3rd floor of ruins. They do have a stratgem (deveststing reach) that lets them do this but it costs CP and as mentioned they will only have 3CP at that points level. The stratagem also prevents them from using their feet attacks.

Trick 2 - To control and objective a model needs to be within 3" if it, again this is always measured from the base, knights are no exception. Knights can only enter the ground floor of ruins. There is nothing stopping you placing an objective marker in the 2nd floor of a ruin, this way it is impossible for a knight to score that objective (this is why most tournaments Have a hose rule that says objectives must be placed at ground level, but there is no such restriction in the core rules).

Trick 3 - at the end of the day in 40k you have to know your and your opponents rules. People make mistakes, and a lot of people fail at reading comprehension, or read what they want to see.

Hope that helps.

JCD has given some great advice already. I'd definitely stick to yellow, but use them as a successor chapter, which allows you so much freedom as to rulesets. That's exactly what I went for and it's great. My yellow marines ('Oathkeepers') can play as Ravenguard, Salamanders, Bloodangels, you name it. As your army grows you'll find yourself wanting to do different things with them. Maybe you want to try a melee focus? No problem, Blood Angel Successors. Snipers? Raven Guard. Primaris heavy? Maybe Iron Hands, etc.

Phew, that's a challenge! Here's what' I'd consider running if I had 750pts to bring down a knight:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [43 PL, 750pts] ++

2x
Captain [6 PL, 114pts]: Jump Pack, Thunder hammer

3x
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 92pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

2x
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 123pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

If you go heavy on vehicles, the knight is going to have a field day. Embedding your heavy weapons in infantry teams will slow down your death and allow you to keep damaging the big fella well into the game. Here's what the list does:

Two fast Thunderhammer captains, who are sacrificial units really. When they get into range of the knight, they charge and do a chunk of damage. The knight hits back and kills one, and they trigger 'only in death' stratagem for 2cps, and attack again. These two guys will single-handidly do a lot of damage to that knight, if backed with CP. If you go BA or RG, take the jump-pack relic to shut off overwatch.

The Dev squads both have heavybolters for the hellfire stratagem. Use the cherub to fire twice, and the sarg to give +1 to hit; now you're hitting on 2+ and doing flat 2d3 mortal wounds. Very nasty. You can use this trick once on both squads.

The tacs are there to camp objectives and lay down lascannon fire. You'll have 8 CPs; 2 will be needed for hellfire strats, 4 for 'Only in death' strats, leaving you only 2 to spend elsewhere.

As for which chapter you go for, I'd say Ravenguard for the -1 to hit, or Bloodangels to pump up your Captains' attacks.

MAKE SURE that your game has objectives. The game is hollow and boring if it's just played for killpoints, and board control is a huge part of the game, and a natural counter for skew lists (such as all knights!). Your marines will hold objectives all day long. Once again: board control is the big weakness of a knight list, perhaps the biggest weakness. If your friend is insisting on playing with no objectives then he is unfairly stacking the game in his favour.

Good luck and let us know how it goes, whatever you choose to take.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's my NOT Imperial Fists by the way!

https://i.imgur.com/cX5GWcE.jpg
https://imgur.com/wvZPR8F
https://imgur.com/kK1aU4m
https://imgur.com/lqs6tiP

I wasn't planning on buying Aggressors, but seeing that can be built without that silly chain thing near the crotch and that they look easy to cut the Aquila off I definitely need buy some instead of proxying them.

Aggressors are the best vanilla Primaris unit imo. 111pts is very reasonable for the threat they bring. They are easy to kill, however... And yeah, I disliked the crotch-display relics too

@grouchoben - I just know someone’s going to wag their finger at me with the whole ‘beggars can’t be choosers’ schtick, but that list is almost precisely all the models I don’t plan on incorporating into my army. I wanted to avoid single-wound marines, and while I’m willing to make exceptions for non-primaris options for most HQs (transports and support accompanying units), the captain wasn’t one of them.

How viable is a dreadnought heavy list these days? I imagine they go over better than they used to, what with there no longer being a random chance of immobilization on taking a hit.

Also, if dread-heavy is viable, anyone have good suggestions for a kitbash to make a Leviathan? I don’t trust Forgeworld after consistently getting bad molds from them.

Ha! Totally understand Axle - I tend to stay away from single wound marines - or at least I did until I went DW and discovered Vets. The list was an attempt to deal with the prospect of a 750pt Knight list - you're going to have to spread your threat well to win that one I think.

Dreads can be very good at filling a niche in your lists, but I think they shouldn't be spammed.

IMO they work best in RG because they love that -1 to hit. I often run two in my lists - I tend to run Contemptor Mortis with quadlas, a Leviathan, a Chaplain Dread, Ven Dreads (and a Redemptor if i'm feeling in the mood). Leviathan is streets ahead, but two ven dreads with doublelas and ML come in at only 20pts more than 1 SCA Leviathan. Speaking of the SCA Leviathan, I think it's the single best unit in the SM roster. Nothing else gives use that much bang for 309pts. I don't have a Deredeo, but I wish I did. Very interesting abilities on that fellow.

I also think a good old Kheres Assault Cannon Contemptor is worth a look. Knights are lethal in CC, but it's also where they're most vulnerable, which means that melee dreadnoughts can do work if you manage the distances right. A tough call, though, seeing how buffed knight movement is in their codex.

As for kitbashing, you could just buy the SCA arms and try them on a Redemptor. That guy's the right amount of beefcake, and the model deserves a better statline, imo.

Quad las preds are pretty much useless. They cost 190 pts. hit on 3+, no invuln sv, no chapter tactics. An experienced knight player will spot that you have three of them, and focus fire one to take it out. No more killshot for you.
Use RG contemptor mortis dreadnoughts with two twin lascannons. They are 206 pts., but they have a 5+ invuln sv, hit on 2+, and get chapter tactics -1 to hit at distances above 12". Play wisdom of the ancients and you can re-roll 1s for the three contemptor mortis dreadnoughts with two twin lascannons and you get 12 lascannon hits on the enemy knight.

jcd386 wrote:

1) The x3 las Preds are effective, but with full rerolls (a chapter master and LT is enough with the strat, but Roboute is generally better) they still only do about 15 wounds to a knight with a 3++ (warlord trait 4++ with rotate ion shields. They will do more damage if you spread out their fire to 5++ knights, but that's not always ideal either. Probably the best idea is to shoot at one knight with one pred, hope they pop the shields, then focus everything else on another target. But there really isn't a great way around it that I know of.

There are games you can play here. If you first target is a Dominus class Knight, you opponent is in a quandry. If he wants to Rotate Shields, he will need to spend 3CPs. Given that Knights are usually very short on CPs, he won't be doing this more than once in a game at this level. If he calls your bluff and does not rotate then continue to blaze away at the original target.

Chaplain dreads with plenty of chaff in front of them are costly but can shoot all game with impunity. Even the character-killing missiles won’t be able to do enough damage to them.

Big squads of Deathwatch inceptors with the +1 wound stratagem can do a heap of wounds that ion shields won’t help against.

 Karhedron wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

1) The x3 las Preds are effective, but with full rerolls (a chapter master and LT is enough with the strat, but Roboute is generally better) they still only do about 15 wounds to a knight with a 3++ (warlord trait 4++ with rotate ion shields. They will do more damage if you spread out their fire to 5++ knights, but that's not always ideal either. Probably the best idea is to shoot at one knight with one pred, hope they pop the shields, then focus everything else on another target. But there really isn't a great way around it that I know of.

There are games you can play here. If you first target is a Dominus class Knight, you opponent is in a quandry. If he wants to Rotate Shields, he will need to spend 3CPs. Given that Knights are usually very short on CPs, he won't be doing this more than once in a game at this level. If he calls your bluff and does not rotate then continue to blaze away at the original target.

Yeah that certainly seems like the way to do it.

It's worth noting however that they can also have a second knight that is -1 to hit from the Mortan warlord trait while the other is at 3++, which i guess makes me feel bad for 3rd or 4th knights, lol. We might not see much or Mortan though, so who knows.

Thunder hammers on jump packs. Knights don't get the invulnerable save in melee.

 Karhedron wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

1) The x3 las Preds are effective, but with full rerolls (a chapter master and LT is enough with the strat, but Roboute is generally better) they still only do about 15 wounds to a knight with a 3++ (warlord trait 4++ with rotate ion shields. They will do more damage if you spread out their fire to 5++ knights, but that's not always ideal either. Probably the best idea is to shoot at one knight with one pred, hope they pop the shields, then focus everything else on another target. But there really isn't a great way around it that I know of.

There are games you can play here. If you first target is a Dominus class Knight, you opponent is in a quandry. If he wants to Rotate Shields, he will need to spend 3CPs. Given that Knights are usually very short on CPs, he won't be doing this more than once in a game at this level. If he calls your bluff and does not rotate then continue to blaze away at the original target.

Fair warning, any AdMech army with a Questor Mechanicus Knight can Rotate Ion Shields for 1 CP, even on a Dominus-class Knight. This will probably be FAQed, but for now i's straight RAW.

May seem out of left field, mainly because no one seems to own this model, but I've had great luck with a Terminus Ultra when dealing with super heavy anything, if nothing else the look of confusion on your opponents face as they attempt to discern, why the actual hell your Land Raider looks like a pincushion made of Las-cannons makes the model worthwhile, also 8 Las-cannon shots at BS 3+ is nothing to sneeze at, just a suggestion. Also it would look good in the Imperial Fists color scheme IMO

CheerfulChump117 wrote:
May seem out of left field, mainly because no one seems to own this model, but I've had great luck with a Terminus Ultra when dealing with super heavy anything, if nothing else the look of confusion on your opponents face as they attempt to discern, why the actual hell your Land Raider looks like a pincushion made of Las-cannons makes the model worthwhile, also 8 Las-cannon shots at BS 3+ is nothing to sneeze at, just a suggestion. Also it would look good in the Imperial Fists color scheme IMO

Y'see, I already looked into this, but it's a Ultramarines-only vehicle - Unless it's literally the only way I stood a chance of winning a game ever, I would refuse to play the forces of our Spiritual Liege, even in a counts-as context.

Axle_Gear wrote:

CheerfulChump117 wrote:
May seem out of left field, mainly because no one seems to own this model, but I've had great luck with a Terminus Ultra when dealing with super heavy anything, if nothing else the look of confusion on your opponents face as they attempt to discern, why the actual hell your Land Raider looks like a pincushion made of Las-cannons makes the model worthwhile, also 8 Las-cannon shots at BS 3+ is nothing to sneeze at, just a suggestion. Also it would look good in the Imperial Fists color scheme IMO

Y'see, I already looked into this, but it's a Ultramarines-only vehicle - Unless it's literally the only way I stood a chance of winning a game ever, I would refuse to play the forces of our Spiritual Liege, even in a counts-as context.

Not with Chapter Approved Land Raider variants rules. It has the <Chapter> tag instead of UM.

Depends on if your campaign is doing open play or allowing those rules.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Axle_Gear wrote:

CheerfulChump117 wrote:
May seem out of left field, mainly because no one seems to own this model, but I've had great luck with a Terminus Ultra when dealing with super heavy anything, if nothing else the look of confusion on your opponents face as they attempt to discern, why the actual hell your Land Raider looks like a pincushion made of Las-cannons makes the model worthwhile, also 8 Las-cannon shots at BS 3+ is nothing to sneeze at, just a suggestion. Also it would look good in the Imperial Fists color scheme IMO

Y'see, I already looked into this, but it's a Ultramarines-only vehicle - Unless it's literally the only way I stood a chance of winning a game ever, I would refuse to play the forces of our Spiritual Liege, even in a counts-as context.

Not with Chapter Approved Land Raider variants rules. It has the <Chapter> tag instead of UM.

Depends on if your campaign is doing open play or allowing those rules.

It also gains mental levels of ability to self wound with the CA rules and it noy exactlly going to be a challenge for a knight to remove that from the board.

Relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer. Its volcano cannon is heavy 2D6, 120", S16, AP-5, D2D6. If the knight is still standing use the 8 lascannons to finish him off.

 p5freak wrote:
Relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer. Its volcano cannon is heavy 2D6, 120", S16, AP-5, D2D6. If the knight is still standing use the 8 lascannons to finish him off.

How does it hold up against a Raven Castellan hitting it first?

 Eldarain wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer. Its volcano cannon is heavy 2D6, 120", S16, AP-5, D2D6. If the knight is still standing use the 8 lascannons to finish him off.

How does it hold up against a Raven Castellan hitting it first?

With T9 and W26 it can take a hit.

The Falchion comes out on top, but it's close I think. Whoever fires first will win.

 p5freak wrote:
Relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer. Its volcano cannon is heavy 2D6, 120", S16, AP-5, D2D6. If the knight is still standing use the 8 lascannons to finish him off.

Only costs three million points, too.

meleti wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer. Its volcano cannon is heavy 2D6, 120", S16, AP-5, D2D6. If the knight is still standing use the 8 lascannons to finish him off.

Only costs three million points, too.

Two point eight million, tyvm.

The falchion is only 1017 pts

Relic leviathan dread with twin grav flux bombard. Heavy 2D3 S9 AP-5 D5 (!) damage for every successful hit it does, against TITANIC units. 339 pts. but only 18" range.

So I let slip that I was going to build multiple Leviathan dreadnoughts when asking my usual opponents about possible kit bashes while we were discussing our future lists, and now they seem to be making every proposition that I don’t make a move towards Leviathans at all, give up on fighting the knights, and just eat a loss from them every round in favor of being more ‘well-balanced,’ while at the same time claiming a ‘well-balanced’ list can easily take out knights at 1000+ points and that knights are totally weak you guys really. I tried to explain the math at hand and that the grav bombards would be useful against other targets that I’m likely to encounter, but they weren’t having any of it.

I also confronted the one player about the four-story tall factory walls, and he tried to counter-claim that I wouldn’t have been able to see his knights past the walls if he couldn’t move through them which… makes no sense at all to me. Neither of us had LOS issues trying to shoot at each other through the second story windows, or else I’m certain we would have been claiming it then and there. Naturally he and the other player both agreed that the claim that knights couldn’t move through walls was dubious at best and said that we were going to have to declare such things at the start of the game, which means it’s almost certain they’ll contest me claiming walls can block movement for non-infantry models. That’s why I was hoping for multiple, definitive rules, statements, FAQ’s, etc, instead of a single sentence.

I feel browbeaten over both matters.

Honestly, I’m about half a step away from going ‘That Guy’ on them, and taking the WAAC’iest net list I can get my hands on and straight up cheating for a handful of games while stopping every turn to review their rules in depth to create a perfectly joyless experience for everyone.

I suggest a 40K vacation. Step back for a bit. What you are proposing is playing a game so that neither you nor your opponent have fun due to your behavior. That's not healthy for you or your meta.

Axle_Gear wrote:
So I let slip that I was going to build multiple Leviathan dreadnoughts when asking my usual opponents about possible kit bashes while we were discussing our future lists, and now they seem to be making every proposition that I don’t make a move towards Leviathans at all, give up on fighting the knights, and just eat a loss from them every round in favor of being more ‘well-balanced,’ while at the same time claiming a ‘well-balanced’ list can easily take out knights at 1000+ points and that knights are totally weak you guys really. I tried to explain the math at hand and that the grav bombards would be useful against other targets that I’m likely to encounter, but they weren’t having any of it.

I also confronted the one player about the four-story tall factory walls, and he tried to counter-claim that I wouldn’t have been able to see his knights past the walls if he couldn’t move through them which… makes no sense at all to me. Neither of us had LOS issues trying to shoot at each other through the second story windows, or else I’m certain we would have been claiming it then and there. Naturally he and the other player both agreed that the claim that knights couldn’t move through walls was dubious at best and said that we were going to have to declare such things at the start of the game, which means it’s almost certain they’ll contest me claiming walls can block movement for non-infantry models. That’s why I was hoping for multiple, definitive rules, statements, FAQ’s, etc, instead of a single sentence.

I feel browbeaten over both matters.

Honestly, I’m about half a step away from going ‘That Guy’ on them, and taking the WAAC’iest net list I can get my hands on and straight up cheating for a handful of games while stopping every turn to review their rules in depth to create a perfectly joyless experience for everyone.

So.

Not wanting to play against Forgeworld is a pretty common sentiment, as that stuff is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as being OP or cheesy.

You could ask them what they think what "well-balanced" Space Marines list at 1000 points could easily beat Knights. My thoughts are probably none, since you'd need to tailor a list quite a bit to beat 1000 points of only T8 24+W 3+ models, but I digress.

The player talking about cover is making up a few rules. This edition uses true LOS, if any part of the model is visible it's visible. If it's 50% obscured it has the cover bonus. Simple as that. You also can't move through walls of ruins unless you're <infantry>, Sounds like your opponent(s) don't want to play with the actual rules in the 40k rulebook, but instead something they've made up/houseruled and prefer.

These don't sound like especially enjoyable people to play with, tbh. Don't think cheating on them would accomplish anything, though. It sounds to me like you would enjoy the hobby a lot more if you didn't play against these people if they aren't willing to compromise.

Just build a legal list. And if any of them play drukhari, tell them to feth right off. And yes, fw is legal.

Ally in imperial guard. Then bring a whole bunch of conscripts. Imperial knights just doesn't handle horde well, especially horde of that kind of degree. I think 150 conscripts can probably hold off a bunch of knights indefinitely. Knights are going to take forever to kill off so many conscripts.

Then you can focus the rest of your points on your shooty stuff, bring everything that you can pack lascannons onto. And then focus fire down the knights one by one. Think about the most efficient way to pack lascannons onto your army. (Bringing ten marines for 1 lascannon is not efficient.).

I think flyers are worth a try. Especially the storm raven with the right kind of missiles. (Use those that have str 8, my friend always uses those). His knights can't melee your storm ravens, and guns like avenger gratlings aren't that great also. That Gallant will just stand there and get shot at all game.

Don't bother packing anything killy into your storm ravens. Just bring them as flying knight killer platforms. If you bring three storm ravens, and 100 to 150 conscripts, you still have lots of points left to squeeze in even more lascannons.

meleti wrote:

Not wanting to play against Forgeworld is a pretty common sentiment, as that stuff is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as being OP or cheesy.

You could ask them what they think what "well-balanced" Space Marines list at 1000 points could easily beat Knights. My thoughts are probably none, since you'd need to tailor a list quite a bit to beat 1000 points of only T8 24+W 3+ models, but I digress.

It's not so much that they won't let me field it, it's more that they'll never let me hear the end of it. If I field Leviathan Dreads and win, it's because I list-tailored. If I lose, the two of them are gonna smugly 'tsk-tsk' and wag their finger at me saying 'I told you so. You should have built a 'well-balanced' list.'

It's worse when they go on about trying to play the objectives. My army is primarily footslogging, and the slowest knights start with... what, 10" movement? And they act like I'm going to have so many more units on the table with a majority Primaris army that 6-8 reasonably fast, extremely durable models aren't going to be able to be where they need to be and stay as long as they need to stay.

@Leo_the_Rat - I'd consider it, but I'm already in the midst of this Tale of Gamers schtick. It's be bad form to drop out, but it would also be bad to stick around and be miserable...

EDIT:

Martel732 wrote:
Just build a legal list. And if any of them play drukhari, tell them to feth right off. And yes, fw is legal.

One of the two is playing drukhari, and he is playing the homculus list that gives everything 4++ and... was it a 5+ FNP?

Mandragola wrote:
So far I’ve tabled knights with my crimson fists every time I’ve played against them. To be fair, this was before the codex came out. Things might be a little different now!

I’ve got three things that are good at killing knights: a lot of lascannons, 19 rapid fire hellblasters and a primaris captain with the fist of vengeance relic.

The captain is an absolute monster, and a steal at 106 points. I give him the Emperor’s Sword warlord trait. If you’ve got a lieutenant and librarian around he can do up to 21 wounds on the charge, and then another 21 if you use Honour the Chapter or Only in Death…

It’s really great to have this model hanging around in my lines. The knights will tend to approach marines, at which point you can have a repulsor soak the overwatch, then charge the captain in and knock one over.

That "they approach you" might not work out that long if it's that reliable.

Also watch out for that repulsor if he brings out castellan. ESPECIALLY if he's raven. Then he can reliably blow up repulsor a turn with just one of his weapons(other weapon still reliably blows up leman russ level tank...Just been simulating how much firepower those main guns can get with raven and it's basically leman russ + repulsor dead fairly reliably. Sometimes leman russ survives but that's why he can use shoulder guns to give some security. More firepower once it gets within melta gun range with 4 of those). Albeit castellans won't be seen in smaller games and aren't autoinclude but be aware that if you face that knight don't rely on repulsor surviving his first shooting face unless you can at least cause 14 wounds to T8 3+/5++, likely 4++.

Also for added insult that character might be facing ignore inv ignore LOS missiles so you might be in a hurry to engage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Axle_Gear wrote:

2) I chose the only chapter with no useful benefits because, of course, any choice I make is the weakest one. Unfortunately, I’ve already been painting plenty of my dudes up, so my options at this point are to either whip up 750-1000 points in a week while working a full time job and chuck what I’ve done so far, or just be ‘Imperial Fists but counts-as [chapter].’ I really wanted to do the yellow scheme, cause I don’t see it that often. I guess there’s a reason for that.

You could alter colour scheme a bit. Like different shoulder pad edge colours etc. If you don't have IF symbols on them fair no issues whatsoever

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ally in imperial guard. Then bring a whole bunch of conscripts. Imperial knights just doesn't handle horde well, especially horde of that kind of degree. I think 150 conscripts can probably hold off a bunch of knights indefinitely. Knights are going to take forever to kill off so many conscripts.
SNIP, something about flyers.

I almost forgot to address this when I was making my last post!

That does seem like a legitimate strategy. Virtually every piece of advice my regular opponents offer me is essentially putting forward chaff units to stall incoming melee, and they never quite seem to understand that I'm playing marines and even scouts are expensive as a sacrificial squad.

Unfortunately, with my schedule and things regularly ramping up every couple of weeks, I'd have to look into assembling and painting these conscripts in... maybe 8-10 hours worth of time spread out over a couple of weeks? And that's to say nothing of obtaining 100+ models that will paint and build rapidly enough to be usable.

 Icculus wrote:

Spoiler:

If that's the FW super heavy tank be carefull knight player doesn't get sniff of that plan. If he does he might feel tempted to bring raven castellan that, while being cheaper, sports 4++ inv save and can literally wreck that completely in one shot very reliably. Without even factoring that first gun might weaken the invulnerable save making it easier to hurt for the second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Axle_Gear wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ally in imperial guard. Then bring a whole bunch of conscripts. Imperial knights just doesn't handle horde well, especially horde of that kind of degree. I think 150 conscripts can probably hold off a bunch of knights indefinitely. Knights are going to take forever to kill off so many conscripts.
SNIP, something about flyers.

I almost forgot to address this when I was making my last post!

That does seem like a legitimate strategy. Virtually every piece of advice my regular opponents offer me is essentially putting forward chaff units to stall incoming melee, and they never quite seem to understand that I'm playing marines and even scouts are expensive as a sacrificial squad.

Unfortunately, with my schedule and things regularly ramping up every couple of weeks, I'd have to look into assembling and painting these conscripts in... maybe 8-10 hours worth of time spread out over a couple of weeks? And that's to say nothing of obtaining 100+ models that will paint and build rapidly enough to be usable.

Well crusader can once close kill about 17 conscripts a turn. Plus more for morale. So yeah those would be bit of a headache to clear for sure! You wouldn't outkill him but would be taking objectives easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

1) The x3 las Preds are effective, but with full rerolls (a chapter master and LT is enough with the strat, but Roboute is generally better) they still only do about 15 wounds to a knight with a 3++ (warlord trait 4++ with rotate ion shields. They will do more damage if you spread out their fire to 5++ knights, but that's not always ideal either. Probably the best idea is to shoot at one knight with one pred, hope they pop the shields, then focus everything else on another target. But there really isn't a great way around it that I know of.

There are games you can play here. If you first target is a Dominus class Knight, you opponent is in a quandry. If he wants to Rotate Shields, he will need to spend 3CPs. Given that Knights are usually very short on CPs, he won't be doing this more than once in a game at this level. If he calls your bluff and does not rotate then continue to blaze away at the original target.

Yeah that certainly seems like the way to do it.

It's worth noting however that they can also have a second knight that is -1 to hit from the Mortan warlord trait while the other is at 3++, which i guess makes me feel bad for 3rd or 4th knights, lol. We might not see much or Mortan though, so who knows.

Yeah mortan isn't that common. reroll 1's in h2h. Wee. -1 to hit is nice but tradition isn't that hot. Hawkshround and raven will be most likely I would guess with Terryn and Taranis being close behind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Thunder hammers on jump packs. Knights don't get the invulnerable save in melee.

Except for one with relic. Plus FW knights. Also 2+ armour save is as good as 5++ vs power fist caliber and is still 6+ vs thunder hammer. Though yeah those are scary for knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Relic falchion super heavy tank destroyer. Its volcano cannon is heavy 2D6, 120", S16, AP-5, D2D6. If the knight is still standing use the 8 lascannons to finish him off.

How does it hold up against a Raven Castellan hitting it first?

With T9 and W26 it can take a hit.

Quick simulatons I ran without shoulder guns or meltas: 25, 12, 13, 15, 24, 20, 27, 22.

It will stand good chance of getting wrecked in one turn. IF not it's near crippled and with 5+ to hit and 4++ you cause average 7 wounds.

So basically that game is decided by "who shoots first wins". Good news is that knight can't go to reserves as the strategem doesn't work on the biggest knights.

Thing is with 3++ option for him he might actually eat up salvo from you and actually survive within full bracket and then blow you up. If he can get even 1 CP from anywhere(3CP for 3++, 1CP for another strategem) if you don't kill it it shoots at full strength with above results. Then you have that knight still left to deal with and you are out of your relic.

That thing is monster in taking out vehicles and can take up damage rather well from other big vehicle hunters like this, shadowsword etc. It's not that durable as such when it comes to knights but against these units it's forte. But generally other knights are MORE durable as a) they cost less and b) can use +1 inv strat for 1CP. 3CP is often crippling unless you are facing shadowsword or it's kind...So by bringing that relic SHV you are actually in a roundabout way helping knights survivability as by using the 3++ for 3CP he likely survives and can then retaliate by taking out your prime threat. Or if he goes first he takes it out and then has 3CP still left.

edit: CP will be issue but 1000+ on the super heavy so castellan+IG battery possible.

I may be a bit biased here since I love this character, but I would suggest the following:

- Lias Issodon
- 3x Devastator Squads with 4x Multi-Meltas, Combi-Melta and Thunder Hammer

Lias and the Devs can all deep-strike within 12" and get their damage bonus. You have 5 Melta shots, which while at -1BS (except 1 thanks to Signum), you're rerolling all your misses. You don't have to take a TH but since Lias gives you +1" to your charges and those Devs will certainly die the next turn anyway, no harm in charging in and trying to do a bit more damage.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I may be a bit biased here since I love this character, but I would suggest the following:

- Lias Issodon
- 3x Devastator Squads with 4x Multi-Meltas, Combi-Melta and Thunder Hammer

Lias and the Devs can all deep-strike within 12" and get their damage bonus. You have 5 Melta shots, which while at -1BS (except 1 thanks to Signum), you're rerolling all your misses. You don't have to take a TH but since Lias gives you +1" to your charges and those Devs will certainly die the next turn anyway, no harm in charging in and trying to do a bit more damage.

Assuming you also have a lt in range of all three units, this combo does 10ish damage to a 3++ knight with cherubs and sigums all popping. You also have to wait until turn two to use it. It's also almost half of your army.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I may be a bit biased here since I love this character, but I would suggest the following:

- Lias Issodon
- 3x Devastator Squads with 4x Multi-Meltas, Combi-Melta and Thunder Hammer

Lias and the Devs can all deep-strike within 12" and get their damage bonus. You have 5 Melta shots, which while at -1BS (except 1 thanks to Signum), you're rerolling all your misses. You don't have to take a TH but since Lias gives you +1" to your charges and those Devs will certainly die the next turn anyway, no harm in charging in and trying to do a bit more damage.

I'm pretty sure mathematically you want Grav Cannons instead.

The Falchion really isn't worth discussing here. First, it costs more than the point limit they're playing at. Second, it's FW, which the opponents have a problem with. Third, you do not want a vehicle that will go about 50-50 with a knight when that vehicle costs 2x as much as the knight, you are already losing to the 2nd knight.

A Librarian with a Jump Pack is going to be worth his weight in gold here. Everybody talks about 3++ Knights. If you can get a Librarian within 6 inches of a Knight (jump pack is helpful here), you can strip that Invulnerable Save with Null Zone and focus fire your heavy weapons. All of the rotating of ion shields in the world won't save a Knight from Null Zone. Any smite you can pull off will help immensely as well. Each mortal wound counts. Nullzone is tough to cast, so make sure you save a command point to help make sure it goes off.

Raven Guard would probably be superior to you than Imperial Fists, as -1 to hit from over 12 inches can help your super expensive primaris marines actually take some of the shooting coming at them. A huge problem you are running into as most imperial knight weapons are at least damage 2 (like the Avenger Gatling Cannon). Or d3 Damage like Battle Cannons and stomping boots. This makes basically his entire army specialized in killing Primaris Marines... which isn't great. Every miss you can force may save a life, and forcing his Plasma to overheat on a 1 or a 2 can help get some more mortal wounds on the Castellan.

Raven Guard also have access to that neat "No Overwatch" Warlord Trait, So if Captain Ahab starts wandering too close You can hop into combat with a Jump Pack Warlord (with Shield Eternal and a Thunder Hammer), deny his overwatch completely, and then pile in with whatever else wants to throw some punches at the Dominus.

I would definitely take at least 2 squads of Devestators with 3 Las Cannons and a Heavy Bolter. The Heavy Bolter is for abusing Hellfire Shells + Cherub + Signum to deal 2d3 mortal wounds. Every mortal wound helps.

How about considering something a little out of the box? An outrider detachment of 3 Salamander attack bikes with multi-meltas. They each get to reroll if they don't hit and/or wound at no CP cost. They come to around 196 points and you can throw in the Librarian for the null zone.

It's more expensive than an IG brigade but in this instance it may serve you well vs IK.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
How about considering something a little out of the box? An outrider detachment of 3 Salamander attack bikes with multi-meltas. They each get to reroll if they don't hit and/or wound at no CP cost. They come to around 196 points and you can throw in the Librarian for the null zone.

It's more expensive than an IG brigade but in this instance it may serve you well vs IK.

Valkyrie already mentioned some combination of dropping several squads of multimelta devastators within half range of a knight, and the math suggests that they would only score 10 wounds average before immediately dying. I doubt the bikes would be more effective for their points, though they might be fun models to get if I ever get to play against less gimmicky lists.

Is there anything that comes close to being as effective as the Leviathans for their points against titans? Especially keeping it within SM?

A BA captn slamguinius for 114 pts. has the potential to kill a knight in one turn, thats a captain with a JP and TH. You make him the warlord and give him artisan of war, which boosts the damage of his TH to 4. Then you have the choice of two relics, hammer of baal or angels wings. The hammer hits on 2+, the angels wings denies overwatch and allows re-rolling failed charges. Deepstrike him, play descent of angels for 2CP to get a 3D6 charge. After successful charging use 1 CP for red rampage to get D3 more attacks. If you have chosen the hammer the captain will have 6 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, which will be 6 successful hits, red thirst will give you +1 to wound rolls after charging, wounding on 3s, thats 4 wounds. The knight will have a 5+ or 6+ sv, saving one wound. You will do 12 damage. If the knight kills him you play only in death does duty end for 2CP and fight again, killing the knight with 12 more damage, or at least bringing him down to his last bracket. If the captain survives you can play honour the chapter for 3 CP to fight again. You can give the captain a SS for a 3++ invuln sv to increase his chances of survival. You could also deepstrike a BA librarian with him and use unleash rage on the captain for +1A. You can use multiple captn slamguinius with JP and TH. But only one can have a relic and warlord trait. You can deepstrike a sanguinus priest to give the captain +1 strength, wounding the knight on 2s, but the priest needs to be within 6".

A BA librarian dreadnought (172 pts.) can deepstrike with a lucius pattern drop pod (80pts.). You can give him a melta for 17 more points. He can cast quickening on himself for +3 to charge rolls and +D3 attacks. The dread can also cast wings of sanguinius on himself, which lets him move 12" in the psychic phase and gives him the FLY keyword. And because its a character you can use red rampage for another +D3 attacks. He hits on 2s, but cant re-roll anything. He will also wound the knight on 2s with red thirst. If you attack with the force halberd the knight may not have a sv at all because its AP-4. Its 3 damage for every successful wound. If the dread is your warlord you can increase the damage to 4 with artisan of war. A BA JP librarian who deepstrikes as well can cast unleash rage on the dread for +1A. And the dread can also fight again at the end of the turn, or when it dies.

 p5freak wrote:
A BA captn slamguinius for 114 pts. has the potential to kill a knight in one turn, thats a captain with a JP and TH.

great post

Yeah captains with JP, SS and TH(even without being BA though BA ones are particularly nasty) are one thing knights really hate. Those things are bummer to deal with. Short of biggest knights and their inv ignoring missiles not really easy way to deal with those for knights if they don't have chaff to deal with them. And those are only on the biggest knights which aren't hottest of the hot from knights(thus not auto seen), eat CP quite a lot(count on needing 3 per missile) and still are far less than 50% to take out one captain.

Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

Yeah. But knight player will find that tricky anyway to take in h2h. If they take cc weapon they have 4 attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+ and you will have 3++. If they stomp for 12 times they need multiple. And of course you have basically paid yourself with the damage even if you die. And CP reroll helps a lot in h2h making you very unlikely to die.

And for the missiles that's fairly safe as even with reroll for to wounds that's 30% chance to die if you get hit and wounded. So what 16% chance in total. So 6 wounds is actually pretty good for the usage. You are fairly good chance to survive anything but getting lucky hit and failed inv save by overwatch from big guns(volcano lance or harpoon) and from the h2h attacks. For about 100 pts while causing about half the damage 400-600 pts knight has. Not too bad.

Only thing those captains will hate charging will be valiant knight provided it's not the BA captain of "no overwatch". That will overwatch you with huge pile of D2 autohits so even 3++ will struggle. Combined with 4 melta guns and harpoon that would insta kill if gets past save and 2 shoulder guns for 2d3 more shots of d3 damage shots. That's risky proposition(oh and that valiant will likely be overwatching even if you charge other knight due to strategem)

 Crazyterran wrote:
Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

Thats the role of a BA captain, deepstrike. charge, do some damage, and if he doesnt kill the knight, die a glorious death killing the knight with his last breath, fighting one more time before he goes down

 p5freak wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Dont those Captains only have 6 wounds?

I guess with the Command Reroll its a little bit iffier, but thats a pretty dangerous move for the Captain too.

Thats the role of a BA captain, deepstrike. charge, do some damage, and if he doesnt kill the knight, die a glorious death killing the knight with his last breath, fighting one more time before he goes down

Suicidal HQ's with 3/4 cp is unfortunately one of the few things codex blood angles can bring to the table everyone else in vanilla codex is stuck with doing meh damage that way and still dieing. Also if he's deepstriking your board presence better be able to take 2 round and you'll probably take less damage from a knight list than DE, Tau, IG.

Outside of the BA Captains which are the strongest, Raven Guard Captains are comparable. They also have a warlord trait which denies over watch, and they have access to the shield eternal which helps them deal with multi wound hits by cutting them in half. Making them very likely to survive missiles, and will take two chain sword cleaves to kill. They are less flashy and explosive than BA Captains, but still good.

I just played Black Templars in a 2k point tourney with 3 IK players. I matched up vs. one. I'm really new and can't remember all of the stuff for the factions, so I can't go into too much description about his army. He had 3 Knights, with one of them being a Warlord and having a lot more guns and the uber flamer, and then 3x Scouts and a Captain with Grand Strategist (or whatever) and a Lt. A short list of things I experienced. My Jump Pack Lieutenant charged from behind LOS-blocking terrain to deny overwatch on one of the 'smaller' (lol) Knights. My Emperor's Champ died fast along with my Lt, Helbrecht hit, then Honor the Chapter, then next turn Only in Death to take knight with him. 5x TH/SH Terminators died to uber flamer overwatch, other knight was screened. His Scouts had relic behind his Knights which was hard to access after my JP HQs died. Fun game overall, I was glad to take out a knight with Helbrecht.

The flamer knight is the valiant and that\s the knight you do NOT want to charge with anything expensive elite guys. 5 terminators, even with SH, are not in healthy place against that D2 flamer. You'll be losing about 3 in average just to flamer. You need something tougher than that to soak up it. Alas that thing will likely destroy even rhino on overwatch.

The Valiant was set to a 2+/4++ with plenty of CP for Rotate Ion, I wanted to try to negate that somewhat via melee and Terms was the most survivable thing I could get in range. But you're right, I learned the hard way. I feel like without skewing my list to beat IK with a ton of LCs, the best I can do is pour weight of fire into something like that in the future. Lots of dakka + Storm of Fire warlord trait might be enough but dang those guys are tough. Next tourney I will bring more Lascannons though, and not rely as much on Thunderhammers.

Ah well then at least it did not have relic flamer. Actually poor combo as not much 2+ save helps due to 4++. So termies had bit better chance than normal. Still 2-3 dead guy going in so output will be bad so you would need more stuff like those th captains mentioned. Otherwise 2-3 guys gets there, few wounds and kniggt moves out and finishes those that survive stomp


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Really those captains are one of knights worst nightmare. Ba one also will scare crap out of even valiant. And others are scared of one anyway.

Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

I guess the two biggest counter knights have against stuff like Slamquinious is the house that can use a stratagem fire at units coming in from reserves and the dreaded death-grip stratagem that can simply cause character models to be crushed to a bloody pulp.
So I would advice against charging models with a Gauntlet.
Also are jetpack units considered infantry? Because then he could also use the stomp stratagem on you for 1D3 mortal wounds on top his normal stomp attacks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

Blood angels are space marines as well. And any captain wiwh th and sh are worth their points vs knights that have very few ways to prevent them charging. 2-3 of those will make knight hurt. And are hard to take out afterwards so not automatically single use.

Jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields arent ba only


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arlen wrote:
I guess the two biggest counter knights have against stuff like Slamquinious is the house that can use a stratagem fire at units coming in from reserves and the dreaded death-grip stratagem that can simply cause character models to be crushed to a bloody pulp.
So I would advice against charging models with a Gauntlet.
Also are jetpack units considered infantry? Because then he could also use the stomp stratagem on you for 1D3 mortal wounds on top his normal stomp attacks.

That knight first has to survive the captains(plus whatever else comes). And even if yes ill be hitting on 5+ or 6 with one attack using that strategem. Unlikely knight will risk few of his cp's .

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

Blood angels are space marines as well. And any captain wiwh th and sh are worth their points vs knights that have very few ways to prevent them charging. 2-3 of those will make knight hurt. And are hard to take out afterwards so not automatically single use.

Jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields arent ba only

The key to the tactic is the +1 to wound +1 to hit thunderhammer with ignore overwatch reroll 3d6 charge. It's practically worthless without the ignore overwatch. Only blood angels can do this. No - they aren't "Space marines" they are just an imperial ally in all respects.

Sigh. Blood angels are one of marine chapters. Claiming they aren't marines is like claiming ultramarines aren't marines. Stupid. Anybody claiming that is worthless to listen to.

And no that combo isn't only thing that worries knights. Anybody who thinks that doesn't understand knights. Have you even read knight codex? There' basically one knight only where no overwatch is crucial and even that is survivable for reqular captain though riskier. Others aren't hitting on 6's enough to worry w6 3++.

You have no clue about knights.

Use three BA captains in a supreme command detachment. Each one is 114 pts. One can be the warlord with angels wings and artisan of war. For 1 CP another one can get the hammer of baal, and the third is a regular captain with JP and TH. The angels wings captain can re-roll its charge because of angels wings. The second captain can use the 3D6 charge with descent of angels for 1 CP. The third can use the re-roll stratagem. Red rampage adds D3 attacks for one captain. If all three make their charges they will kill the knight.

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slamquinious is not space marines. He is a blood angel. Plus is a single use gimmick.

Blood angels are space marines as well. And any captain wiwh th and sh are worth their points vs knights that have very few ways to prevent them charging. 2-3 of those will make knight hurt. And are hard to take out afterwards so not automatically single use.

Jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields arent ba only


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 Arlen wrote:
I guess the two biggest counter knights have against stuff like Slamquinious is the house that can use a stratagem fire at units coming in from reserves and the dreaded death-grip stratagem that can simply cause character models to be crushed to a bloody pulp.
So I would advice against charging models with a Gauntlet.
Also are jetpack units considered infantry? Because then he could also use the stomp stratagem on you for 1D3 mortal wounds on top his normal stomp attacks.

That knight first has to survive the captains(plus whatever else comes). And even if yes ill be hitting on 5+ or 6 with one attack using that strategem. Unlikely knight will risk few of his cp's .

Well they only have to declare using those strats after they attacked so they can always use them to make sure the captain dies.
Additionally you are also using quite a lot of command points to get to the knight to fight it in close combat so you can surely expect the knight player to invest some commandpoints trying to keep the knight alive and even then Admech knights can get back to there highest profile with a simple 1 point stratagem while imperium knights have acces to household Hawkshroud. I think you can pretty much expect a knight always to be fighting at his best profile when you got it cornered. Because no knight player will let his knight go down without grabbing the chance to let it kill atleast something in return.

Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

tneva82 wrote:
Sigh. Blood angels are one of marine chapters. Claiming they aren't marines is like claiming ultramarines aren't marines. Stupid. Anybody claiming that is worthless to listen to.

And no that combo isn't only thing that worries knights. Anybody who thinks that doesn't understand knights. Have you even read knight codex? There' basically one knight only where no overwatch is crucial and even that is survivable for reqular captain though riskier. Others aren't hitting on 6's enough to worry w6 3++.

You have no clue about knights.

They were clearly talking about the vanilla codex and you know it.

IKs are relatively hard to shoot to death and vanilla marines lack effective CC options. So soup it is.

tneva82 wrote:
Sigh. Blood angels are one of marine chapters. Claiming they aren't marines is like claiming ultramarines aren't marines. Stupid. Anybody claiming that is worthless to listen to.

And no that combo isn't only thing that worries knights. Anybody who thinks that doesn't understand knights. Have you even read knight codex? There' basically one knight only where no overwatch is crucial and even that is survivable for reqular captain though riskier. Others aren't hitting on 6's enough to worry w6 3++.

You have no clue about knights.

No - I seriously question your game knowledge if you think charging a unit that has several weapons that deal multi damage and you have only 6 wounds isn't risky.

For example if you charge an IK crusader
d6 melta shots
14 str 6 ap-2 flat 2 damage shots (endless furry relic) that gerneate additional hits on 6's
3 krak missles
a heavy flamer
and a stubber

A castellan is even more brutal

Without ignore overwatch and even with a 3++ save - your chance of dying with a 6 wound model is very high.
Without +1 to wound army trait damage against knights is pathetic with a thunderhammer
Only BA have +1 to hit and +1 damage hammer.

The list goes on as to why only BA can do this effectively.

If the OP question was - how do I beat IK with blood angels. Slamquinious would be the answer. If the question is space marines the answer is soup.

 Arlen wrote:

Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

Any SM captain with SS can walk away from an imperial knight without a scratch. And with 5 wounds he can survive an exploding knight. A BA captain with the DC keyword can get a 5+ FNP.

 Arlen wrote:
Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

You do know that that stratagem only works half the time (on a 4+). It seems like a waste of 2 CP to even bother with it. I mean if it was an autoexplode then maybe it would be worth doing but not on a 50/50 chance.

Seems worth noting that the ignore overwatch relic jump pack is recommended if you are going to be assaulting things like knights since they are typically pretty deadly in overwatch, especially the ones with flamers or AGCs, and their strat to let another knight overwatch stuff.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Arlen wrote:
Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

You do know that that stratagem only works half the time (on a 4+). It seems like a waste of 2 CP to even bother with it. I mean if it was an autoexplode then maybe it would be worth doing but not on a 50/50 chance.

It’s essentially a 3CP stratagem where you sometimes don’t need to spend the third. You should always reroll there.

I still don't like the odds. It still won't work 25% of the time and you're using up 3 CP now with no guarantee that it will accomplish much anyway (you can still roll 1 wound and you won't get to reroll having already used it).

 p5freak wrote:
Use three BA captains in a supreme command detachment. Each one is 114 pts. One can be the warlord with angels wings and artisan of war. For 1 CP another one can get the hammer of baal, and the third is a regular captain with JP and TH. The angels wings captain can re-roll its charge because of angels wings. The second captain can use the 3D6 charge with descent of angels for 1 CP. The third can use the re-roll stratagem. Red rampage adds D3 attacks for one captain. If all three make their charges they will kill the knight.

This is the best way to go for sure!

Well - if it's a Taranis knight (competitively it probably will be) You kill it and he reseurects and fights at full power for 1 CP the rest of the game until you kill it again (at which point he can resurrect...AGAIN)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I still don't like the odds. It still won't work 25% of the time and you're using up 3 CP now with no guarantee that it will accomplish much anyway (you can still roll 1 wound and you won't get to reroll having already used it).

On a Dominus knight (which rolls 2 dice for the explosion) It is a 75% chance before a command reroll.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Arlen wrote:
Which also brings me to the following point, which space marine unit can survive killing a Knight in CC and the following explosion when the Knight player uses a the explode stratagem? D6 mortal wounds to the face hurts, no matter what model you are.

You do know that that stratagem only works half the time (on a 4+). It seems like a waste of 2 CP to even bother with it. I mean if it was an autoexplode then maybe it would be worth doing but not on a 50/50 chance.

I know, but I have also seen a Valiant blowing up in the middle of someones Eldar army with enormous results. Pretty much anything within 8'' of that Knight was decimated by that explosion.
And those dominus class boys have a 75% chance to explode.
Sure it is still dice dependant, but so are many other stratagems.

Ravenguard can also get the warlord protection from overwatch, but nonBA captains just don't hit hard enough. Averaging 3-4 wounds each isn't going to stop a knight.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well - if it's a Taranis knight (competitively it probably will be) You kill it and he reseurects and fights at full power for 1 CP the rest of the game until you kill it again (at which point he can resurrect...AGAIN)

What are you talking about ? House taranis gives a 6+ FNP. With valiant last stand for 2CP the knight can shoot one more time or fight in melee with 1 wound remaining before he is removed from the battlefield, he is not resurrected for the rest of the game. With 1CP the knight can use the top row of the damage table.

'Our darkest hour', taranis strat, on a 4+ get back up with 1d3 wounds.

 grouchoben wrote:
'Our darkest hour', taranis strat, on a 4+ get back up with 1d3 wounds.

Oh ok, i missed that one.

I was looking through my arsenal to see what I could bring to the table to soup it up, since it's quite clear SM just aren't going to cut it even under the best of circumstances. What's the verdict on attaching a Shadowsword down the line?

A knight can have a 3+ invuln sv against the shadowswords volcano cannon. The shadowsword doesnt even have an invuln sv. Its pretty clear to me who would win in a shootout.

 p5freak wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
'Our darkest hour', taranis strat, on a 4+ get back up with 1d3 wounds.

Oh ok, i missed that one.

No offense taken - you going to be seeing a lot of this on the table soon.