Hi

Can a Solitaire Blitz (Move +2D6") AND advance (another D6") in the same move? Or does Blitz replacing "the normal move" also cut off the ability to advance? Double interesting, since the Starmist Raiment requires you to advance to be free from overwatch concerns.

Thanks.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Hi

Can a Solitaire Blitz (Move +2D6") AND advance (another D6") in the same move? Or does Blitz replacing "the normal move" also cut off the ability to advance? Double interesting, since the Starmist Raiment requires you to advance to be free from overwatch concerns.

Thanks.

They may not advance, because Blitz replaces the normal move. The only way you can advance is if you make a normal move. This means the Starmist Raiment doesn't apply on a turn the Solitaire uses its Blitz move.

"When you pick a unit to move in the
Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance,..."

Nowhere does it specify that you have to do a specific kind of movement. Just that you have to move.

"Once per battle, instead of making a normal
move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move
with it. ... "

The Solitaire still moves. And nowhere does it say that you can't advance when doing a Blitz move. It doesn't change the "advance rule" in any way.

So you still can advance when doing a Blitz move. Effectively making a 12" + 3d6" move and being able to ignore overwatch from the Starmist Raiment.

Weidekuh wrote:
"When you pick a unit to move in the
Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance,..."

Nowhere does it specify that you have to do a specific kind of movement. Just that you have to move.

"Once per battle, instead of making a normal
move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move
with it. ... "

The Solitaire still moves. And nowhere does it say that you can't advance when doing a Blitz move. It doesn't change the "advance rule" in any way.

So you still can advance when doing a Blitz move. Effectively making a 12" + 3d6" move and being able to ignore overwatch from the Starmist Raiment.

You just quoted the bit where it says “instead of making a normal move...” - that’s the bit that stops you moving/Advancing normally.

Nevermind. Checked the rule when I got home.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
"When you pick a unit to move in the
Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance,..."

Nowhere does it specify that you have to do a specific kind of movement. Just that you have to move.

"Once per battle, instead of making a normal
move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move
with it. ... "

The Solitaire still moves. And nowhere does it say that you can't advance when doing a Blitz move. It doesn't change the "advance rule" in any way.

So you still can advance when doing a Blitz move. Effectively making a 12" + 3d6" move and being able to ignore overwatch from the Starmist Raiment.

You just quoted the bit where it says “instead of making a normal move...” - that’s the bit that stops you moving/Advancing normally.

No it doesn't. Because the rule to advance doesn't say you have to make a normal move. You just have to move. Blitz is a move. So you can advance.

Johnny - so it is a move still? If so, then you may advance. Advance doesn't require a "normal" move. If you disagree please show exactly where this is stated.

As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

But it doesn't say that you can only advance with a normal move. Normal move and advance have no connection. Only move and advance has. I understand what you mean and how you can come to your conclusion. The rule is badly worded. But it is clear.

Now it may change in a future errata, but until then you can advance when chosing a Blitz move.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

I don't think we want to be saying that Blitz uses rules other than the rules in the Movement section for moving. If it ignored those rules, it's questionable how it would move at all, as the "normal rules" for movement tell you how far it can move, how no part can move further than its move characteristic, or how you can't end you move within 1" of enemy models. If you ignore these "normal" rules... well... I'd hate to imagine the consequences. As such, I think the Blitz is a move that happens in the movement phase, so you can indeed advanced as part of your Blitz move.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

That isn't what was asked, however.
You need something saying you can only advance when moving normally.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

That isn't what was asked, however.
You need something saying you can only advance when moving normally.

The rules in the movement phase ARE moving normally. See what you made me do? You made me and JonnyHell agree with each other.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules in the movement phase ARE moving normally. See what you made me do? You made me and JonnyHell agree with each other.

As per my previous post, that reasoning would introduce some serious breakage of the game. If you ignore the "normal rules" for moving, then there's nothing saying that you can actually move up to your Move characteristic (so you can't move at all now), that no part of the model can end the move more than the model's move distance from its starting position (so, if you could move still, then you can place your model anywhere on the table), and there's nothing saying you couldn't end your move within 1" of enemy models (so, yes, that move can really be anywhere). In this case "Blitzing" would actually mean "increase your Move and Attacks characteristics for the turn, but stay exactly where you were". If my Index version of Blitz is accurate, it adds the 2d6 to your Move characterstic, which means you must still use the Movement rules for Moving during a Blitz, which means that you ARE using the Normal Movement rules, but they're now a "Blitz Movement rules", with the only difference being your increased Movement value. That would mean you COULD Advance still during a Blitz.

"Instead of a normal move" means you move 2d6 instead of your M characteristic (with the option to advance). It's actually clear.

I admit your argument has some merit because it doesn't seem to be breaking any logical rules. Chalk this one up for "GW needs to fix their rules again".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

That isn't what was asked, however.
You need something saying you can only advance when moving normally.

The rules in the movement phase ARE moving normally. See what you made me do? You made me and JonnyHell agree with each other.

So where is the rule stating the only time you can advance Is when using the basic rule?
Citation please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

That isn't what was asked, however.
You need something saying you can only advance when moving normally.

The rules in the movement phase ARE moving normally. See what you made me do? You made me and JonnyHell agree with each other.

So where is the rule stating the only time you can advance Is when using the basic rule?
Citation please.

That's not how the rules work. You need to show a rule saying you CAN advance with a non-standard move. "It doesn't say I can't" isn't an argument. I can just as easily ask "Where is the rule saying I can't re-roll all hits if I stroke a puppy."

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As I read it, moving normally is the rules in the Movement section. This model can use a different option instead of those rules.

That isn't what was asked, however.
You need something saying you can only advance when moving normally.

The rules in the movement phase ARE moving normally. See what you made me do? You made me and JonnyHell agree with each other.

So where is the rule stating the only time you can advance Is when using the basic rule?
Citation please.

That's not how the rules work. You need to show a rule saying you CAN advance with a non-standard move. "It doesn't say I can't" isn't an argument. I can just as easily ask "Where is the rule saying I can't re-roll all hits if I stroke a puppy."

"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."



"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move with it. ... "

Both normal moves and Blitz moves are designated as moves. When you pick a unit to move (not specified as a normal move) you can declare that it will advance.

"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

Blitz move and a normal move are both moves. Advance can be used if you move. You can't just igrnore that both are moves because you dislike the result.

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

Blitz move and a normal move are both moves. Advance can be used if you move. You can't just igrnore that both are moves because you dislike the result.

So by that logic a charge move is also a move and I can advance as part of it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

Blitz move and a normal move are both moves. Advance can be used if you move. You can't just igrnore that both are moves because you dislike the result.

So by that logic a charge move is also a move and I can advance as part of it.

It is a move, but not one that happens in the movement phase, and as such, is not eligible for Advancing. "When you pick a unit to move in the movement phase" (emphasis mine).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

If a Blitz move isn't a move. Then a normal move isn't a move either. You can't pick one and not the other. There is only move in the movement phase mentioned in the core rules.

You can Blitz and Advance, Blitz and not Advance, Move and Advance, or Move and not Advance during the movement phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

Blitz move and a normal move are both moves. Advance can be used if you move. You can't just igrnore that both are moves because you dislike the result.

So by that logic a charge move is also a move and I can advance as part of it.

If you're somehow charging during the movement phase, then yes.

Any other strawman arguments you care to throw up?

So basically the Solitaire moves 3d6 instead of 8+6d? It moves 8 right?

 Xenomancers wrote:
So basically the Solitaire moves 3d6 instead of 8+6d? It moves 8 right?

No, it normally moves 12 inches, but Blitz adds 2d6 to its Movement Characteristic. Along with Advance (which also adds 1d6 to your Movement Characteristic), you're looking at an allowable move between 15"-30".

Advancing is declared when the unit is SELECTED (picked).

After that point, it does what ever else i does, in ADDITION to advancing.

I suspect that if you could not advance and blitz it would mention that in the rule for blitz. I also suspect that if that was the case, blitz would replace advance instead of the normal move. Because it replaces the normal move, which is not required for advancing, and does not say that you cannot advance, there is nothing in the rules that prevents you from advancing with your guy and using its special move to replace its move with a faster one.

 Yarium wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So basically the Solitaire moves 3d6 instead of 8+6d? It moves 8 right?

No, it normally moves 12 inches, but Blitz adds 2d6 to its Movement Characteristic. Along with Advance (which also adds 1d6 to your Movement Characteristic), you're looking at an allowable move between 15"-30".

Why didn't they state that you can advance 3d6 when you blizz - that would have been so much more clear. That is effectively what the rules are stating now.

I guess in case you don't want to advance for some reason, in which case you still get the 2d6.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Blitz move" is not the same as "move". You can't just ignore half a rule because you dislike the result.

yeah that's not how the rules work

It's a move. Same as a normal move, is a move.
Show how I can't advance, when the rules show I can. You need something written here, not your usual straw man argument this time round.

I'm normally closer to Bacon but I gotta agree with the chorus here. Advancing is not tied to a specific kind of movement but rather the unit being selected to move in the movement phase from the RAW quoted in this thread.

RAW absolutely - you can advance.

I’m with bacon cat and Johnny hell and them. It replaces the normal movement options. Again it comes down to intent of the rule. What does it represent, it’s the solitaire making a fast burst of extra movement, hence the increase to move stat and attacks. So the benefit is the M+2D6, trying to argue that he can add another D6 in spite of it saying instead of a normal move is trying to twist an extra advantage. If that was the intention, as said above it would say M+3D6 or say you could advance. It doesn’t. U are already better off. Be happy with a potential 20” move.

Isn't advancing just extending your normal move with D6, and then later suffer limitations to what you can do.

When you declare it seems irrelevant

I'm with the [blitz+advance=yes] side. All the following are what I consider moves: normal move, blitz, charge, pile in, consolidate, heroic intervention. But only blitz and normal move out of those happens in your movement phase and therefore qualify for advance.
As a sidenote I would not consider deployment stuff moves, like da jump or disembark for example.

No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")


Now, of course, another question would be if the Solitaire could Blitz, opt for the Advance move instead of the Blitz move, and still benefit from the extra attacks. But that's another discussion, I suppose.


* as always, "RAW" is usually used incorrectly here, because a strictly textual interpretation of 40K rules ignoring the intention/golden rule is always a violation of true RAW.

If the blitz rule doesnt restrict you from advancing then yes, you can advance.

 p5freak wrote:
If the blitz rule doesnt restrict you from advancing then yes, you can advance.

The Blitz rule does not restrict you from advancing, but Advance is defined as "Move Characteristic + D6", while Blitz is defined as "Move Characteristic + 2D6"

If you opt for the Advance, you move less than when you opt for the Blitz move you unlocked with the Blitz ability.

If, in theory, you could do BOTH Advance and Blitz, a Solitaire would actually move 24 + 3D6 inches (Advance being 12+D6 and Blitz being 12+2D6).


Or, in other words, a normal Space Marine cannot move AND advance either. A Space Marine can move OR advance. The former is his Movement stat, the latter is his Movement stat +D6.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")


Now, of course, another question would be if the Solitaire could Blitz, opt for the Advance move instead of the Blitz move, and still benefit from the extra attacks. But that's another discussion, I suppose.


* as always, "RAW" is usually used incorrectly here, because a strictly textual interpretation of 40K rules ignoring the intention/golden rule is always a violation of true RAW.

I believe this is correct.

You can "move" or you can "advance" or you can do nothing during your movement phase (excluding stratagems etc).

If Blitz replaces the "move" aspect, you must pick between "advance" and "Blitz" if you decide to use the ability. When you advance you are not moving normally.

Therefore you cannot Blitz and Advance.

To be honest we should have figured this to be correct, when Johnny and BCB agree on something it's pretty likely to be correct RAW.

I'd say this is also RAI - the extra D6" is the benefit of Blitzing, it is designed to be a better version of the advance move, not something to be used with it.

"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn....."

It doesnt say anything about replacing the normal move with a blitz move. You simply add 2D6" to the 12" move characteristic. When you choose to advance you add 1D6" to 12" + 2D6".

 p5freak wrote:
"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn....."

It doesnt say anything about replacing the normal move with a blitz move. You simply add 2D6" to the 12" move characteristic. When you choose to advance you add 1D6" to 12" + 2D6".

This is wrong for a number of reasons, the first, is that it's just wrong as shown thus;

Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire

If you do something instead of something else, in this case it can be seen to replace the other action, albeit temporarily (once per battle).

By your argument the Solitaire can then move it's movement characteristic twice, add 2D6" to that move characteristic then add another D6" to the first characteristic. 24" + 3D6" movement? I'd love it to be true, but alas, balance.

E - I think Sunny has spelled it out pretty clear. I'm not sure how you can still argue otherwise? His breakdown of the actions we can take in the movement phase and why that limits the blitz + advance are pretty clear.

No, that's not what was said.
Instead of making a normal move. A normal move is your move characteristic

Nothing states you cannot then advance , which adds to your move. Note, not "normal" move, just "move

How you're getting that you're able to move" again is beyond me. It's a pure leap unsupported in rules or logic

Move plus 2d6 plus d6 if you want to advance is entirely within the rules.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

By your argument the Solitaire can then move it's movement characteristic twice, add 2D6" to that move characteristic then add another D6" to the first characteristic. 24" + 3D6" movement? I'd love it to be true, but alas, balance.

No. His move characteristic becomes 12" + 2D6". From just 12" to 12" + 2D6". On top of that you add 1D6" for advancing, because advancing adds 1D6" to the move characteristic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn....."

It doesnt say anything about replacing the normal move with a blitz move. You simply add 2D6" to the 12" move characteristic. When you choose to advance you add 1D6" to 12" + 2D6".

This is wrong for a number of reasons, the first, is that it's just wrong as shown thus;

Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire

If you do something instead of something else, in this case it can be seen to replace the other action, albeit temporarily (once per battle).

This is where you're going wrong. Advancing doesn't replace anything, it supplements your move. The only requirement we have to be able to Advance is selecting a unit in the movement phase, as quoted earlier in this thread. We select the Solitaire to move, therefore we can Advance. It really is that simple.

The three stooges of you above are wrong.

You can do one of 3 things normally in the movement phase, let's call them actions for ease.

1. Move normally aka your movement characteristic
2. Advance (must be declared before you move the model I believe according to BRB).
3. Do nothing.

If you do one you cannot do the other - they are mutually exclusive. I cannot move and advance. I cannot move and also not move.

When you elect to use Blitz you do so, as written, instead of your movement action. Blitz doesn't just change your movement profile, it IS your movement action (as stated).

As we know from earlier - I cannot use my move action and also use my advance action on the same unit. They are mutually exclusive. Hence I cannot blitz and advance.

And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

The concept of a normal move is explained in the same section of the rulebook as the advance rule.

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or
less than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet.

So you can select a unit to resolve the move rule above, but before you change it's position by following the move rule, you can instead use the advance rule to move D6 + movement statistic. the Blitz move is an additional rule that you use instead of using the move rule (and thus, instead of using the advance rule) that means you move 2d6 + movement characteristic.

There's probably a lot of 7th mentality lingering in people's heads, where Advancing was a distinct action that happened in another phase. (running in shooting phase)

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

Claiming the "other side" proves your own point by their argument, never really helped anyone s online discussion, did it? Let's refrain from that.

torblind wrote:
Claiming the "other side" proves your own point by their argument, never really helped anyone s online discussion, did it? Let's refrain from that.

Claiming someone is doing something that needs refraining, when they're actually trying to show through logical explanation the sensible outcome of a discussion has never really helped anyone's online discussion has it? Let's refrain from that. Stop strawmanning. I'm showing him through his own understanding of the rules how the Solitaire cannot Blitz and Advance. It's exactly what YMDC is for, is it not?

E - Advancing is still very much a distinct and separate action from "moving". Note all the limitations imposed on the model if it chooses to advance instead of simply move.

Advancing means you move, correct?
Instead of that usual move, you can follow the blitz rules for how you Move
They are not mutually exclusive

It's very tricky to 3xplain such an obvious concept. So far all you've done is create non existent rules such as "normal move" being a defined in rules obj3ct, that cannot support your position.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

Right, I think I see the point you're making. However, if we treat the basic movement rules as a "normal move" and a Blitz as "not a normal move", which by your argument would preclude Advancing, we also end up not using any of the rules under "Moving" in the rules for a unit that uses Blitz, which leaves us not able to resolve the action at all because that section includes vital information about how we actually resolve a model's movement. The difference in opinion between the two sides seems to stem from the difference between a unit being selected to Move and a unit being selected to move.

The point in your second sentence is incorrect. The rules for Advancing absolutely require you to pick a unit you have selected to move - it states "When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase...". A Blitzing unit is moving (if it weren't we couldn't actually resolve the action since the rules that govern that are in the section titled "Moving") in the Movement phase so we can Advance with it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Advancing means you move, correct?
Instead of that usual move, you can follow the blitz rules for how you Move
They are not mutually exclusive

It's very tricky to 3xplain such an obvious concept. So far all you've done is create non existent rules such as "normal move" being a defined in rules obj3ct, that cannot support your position.

It's clearly a rules object because it's referenced in the Blitz rule itself. The Blitz rule doesn't state "Just change the movement characteristic to 12" + 2D6 lol", it specifically states you do this instead of the normal move action.

Yes, you physically move the model when you advance.

But this does not mean that you "move" the model as defined by the rules.

The rules clearly, like crystal clearly, define a difference between "Moving" and "Advancing". They have to, because otherwise we'd have people moving up to their movement characteristic, then moving again and adding D6" because they claim it is within the boundaries of the rules.

I've yet to see anyone explain in detail how you can justify both moving and advancing with the same model in the same movement phase. If you move you move. That is that. If you advance you advance. Advance must be declared before you move the model. If you Blitz you are opting to use the Blitz instead of the move. You cannot do both.

You're welcome to take it up with GW, but this would be my ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
Right, I think I see the point you're making. However, if we treat the basic movement rules as a "normal move" and a Blitz as "not a normal move", which by your argument would preclude Advancing, we also end up not using any of the rules under "Moving" in the rules for a unit that uses Blitz, which leaves us not able to resolve the action at all because that section includes vital information about how we actually resolve a model's movement. The difference in opinion between the two sides seems to stem from the difference between a unit being selected to Move and a unit being selected to move.

Why do you believe we can't resolve the action? You resolve the action as defined except the movement characteristic is changed.

Slipspace wrote:
The point in your second sentence is incorrect. The rules for Advancing absolutely require you to pick a unit you have selected to move - it states "When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase...". A Blitzing unit is moving (if it weren't we couldn't actually resolve the action since the rules that govern that are in the section titled "Moving") in the Movement phase so we can Advance with it.

I think we both know it means "move" and not "move". Lol. What I mean is the rule is read thus; "When you pick a unit to physically move in the Movement phase you can instead opt to...."

Quote the full rule, for reference. It should become clear.

Of cours you "move" when you advance. If you are truly stating otherwise, then I can end up within 1" without declaring a charge - because I'm prohibited from doing so only while I am making a Move, and you are claiming, incredibly, that this is not a Move

A Normal Move dies not exist as a defined OBJECT. "normal move" , lacking capitalisation, means this is not a singular object, but a compound of words used in normal language until you hit a defined rule - such as move. The rules for Movement do not define a "Normal Move", this is not defined anywhere , so it dies not exist.

The rules for moving models allow you to declare an advance, which is defined as including a Move. This is undeniable, using actual rules

As it includes a standard, or "normal", Move, I am able to "instead of" taking that normal Move, use the Blitz rules.

This is all unarguable using rules as given.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Of cours you "move" when you advance. If you are truly stating otherwise, then I can end up within 1" without declaring a charge - because I'm prohibited from doing so only while I am making a Move, and you are claiming, incredibly, that this is not a Move

A Normal Move dies not exist as a defined OBJECT. "normal move" , lacking capitalisation, means this is not a singular object, but a compound of words used in normal language until you hit a defined rule - such as move. The rules for Movement do not define a "Normal Move", this is not defined anywhere , so it dies not exist.

The rules for moving models allow you to declare an advance, which is defined as including a Move. This is undeniable, using actual rules

As it includes a standard, or "normal", Move, I am able to "instead of" taking that normal Move, use the Blitz rules.

This is all unarguable using rules as given.

Well there's your problem - an Advance is not defined as including a Move. When you Advance you move the model up to the model's movement characteristic and you follow any associated rules, that is all. If you take a "normal move' you are not 'Advancing' because 'Advancing' is something very different with it's own criteria, restrictions and rules. You declare an advance before you move any models. You do not move models then decide to Advance. You do ONE OR THE OTHER (this is key).

So no, you're not able to advance and Blitz. Blitz changes my Move action. It does not change my Advance action.

This is going to get nowhere. Contact GW. To me, it's clear.

I do not have the rules for Solitaire, but what I found on another thread is this: "Blitz: Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move with it. If you do so, add 2D6" to the model's Move characterisitic for this turn. In addition, the model's Attacks characteristic is increased to 10 for the rest of the turn. This ability may not be used if the model has been selected as the target of the Twilight Pathways psychic power in the previous Psychic phase."

"Instead of making a normal move with Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move... add 2D6" to the model's Move characteristic."

Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

The rules for Advance says: "When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn."

So, what Solitaire can do is use its Blitz rule to add 2D6" to its Move characteristic. You then take this new number, the new Move characteristic that it has for this single turn, and you use it for your Advance. You've picked that model to move in the movement phase, you declare that it will Advance. You roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristic of that model.

 Kharneth wrote:
Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

Makes no difference given the context of the rules whether the term is bold, in caps or not. A "normal move" action must exist because it is the way we move our models. Making an "Advance" is the "unusual move" action. Both are actions we can take in the movement phase.

Look at it another way - if you elect to Blitz you have (by definition) elected to move. You cannot elect to move and advance, you do one or the other. You literally cannot move then go, I'm going to now advance. You must state you're doing it (advance) before you move. If you say you're advancing with your Solitaire, you cannot then Blitz (because Blitz is a variation of the "normal move"). Once you have elected to Blitz you have forgone your ability to advance.

Has anyone passed this on to GW for clarification? I don't think we're going to solve this on here.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

Makes no difference given the context of the rules whether the term is bold, in caps or not. A "normal move" action must exist because it is the way we move our models. Making an "Advance" is the "unusual move" action. Both are actions we can take in the movement phase.

Look at it another way - if you elect to Blitz you have (by definition) elected to move. You cannot elect to move and advance, you do one or the other. You literally cannot move then go, I'm going to now advance. You must state you're doing it (advance) before you move. If you say you're advancing with your Solitaire, you cannot then Blitz (because Blitz is a variation of the "normal move"). Once you have elected to Blitz you have forgone your ability to advance.

Has anyone passed this on to GW for clarification? I don't think we're going to solve this on here.

Yes, you can. The ONLY way to Advance is to move. Read your rulebook.

Advancing is a supplement to your movement, not a replacement. I quoted the rules for Advance above or you can look in the rules, which are free online.

 Kharneth wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Now, "normal move" is not a term. It's not bold and it doesn't have a unique definition for Warhammer 40k's rules. "Normal move" is just referring to moving without using Blitz.

Makes no difference given the context of the rules whether the term is bold, in caps or not. A "normal move" action must exist because it is the way we move our models. Making an "Advance" is the "unusual move" action. Both are actions we can take in the movement phase.

Look at it another way - if you elect to Blitz you have (by definition) elected to move. You cannot elect to move and advance, you do one or the other. You literally cannot move then go, I'm going to now advance. You must state you're doing it (advance) before you move. If you say you're advancing with your Solitaire, you cannot then Blitz (because Blitz is a variation of the "normal move"). Once you have elected to Blitz you have forgone your ability to advance.

Has anyone passed this on to GW for clarification? I don't think we're going to solve this on here.

Yes, you can. The ONLY way to Advance is to move. Read your rulebook.

Advancing is a supplement to your movement, not a replacement. I quoted the rules for Advance above or you can look in the rules, which are free online.

Wrong.

You cannot move and advance.

If you could I could move my movement characteristic once, they advance and do exactly the same thing again +D6".

You can EITHER advance or move. I would recommend you read your rules. Advancing and moving are clearly distinct and different things, which further proves that you cannot do both.

E - see this for information;

No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

To repeat myself from earlier:


"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move with it. ... "

Both normal moves and Blitz moves are designated as moves. When you pick a unit to move (not specified as a normal move) you can declare that it will advance.

You would get to add the d6 from Advance to the type of move you are making.

 doctortom wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
And how do you Advance? You select a unit to move and declare it's Advancing. This concept of a "normal" move (your point 1 above) doesn't exist in the rules in the way you're trying to invoke it. The only thing that matters is we have selected a unit to move.

You declare a unit is advancing, yes. You don't select it to 'move' because that is a different thing.

If you are advancing you are not doing the same thing as if you were moving. This is absolutely in the rules.

You have proven the point.

To repeat myself from earlier:


"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the Solitaire, you can make a Blitz move with it. ... "

Both normal moves and Blitz moves are designated as moves. When you pick a unit to move (not specified as a normal move) you can declare that it will advance.

You would get to add the d6 from Advance to the type of move you are making.

It clearly doesn't mean "move" as in "complete a move action" because again, they are different things (advancing and moving). This is easily evidenced. They have different rules associated with them and they act differently.

And to repeat myself from earlier;
No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Which is the "RAW"* version I would see against Blitz and Advance.

Normally, you have two options in the movement phase when you select a unit:

1. - Move (this includes moving up to your move characteristic)
2. - Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

Blitz replaces No. 1 (assuming that is the "normal move", though of course it's not called that in the BRB), thus in a turn the Solitaire blitzes, he has the following options

1. Blitz (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + 2D6)
2. Advance (this includes moving up to your move characteristic + D6")

You guys are insane.

There is no such thing as a normal move.

"Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery."

There is no such action as "Move" or "Normal Move." There is only the idea of moving, which is when a model/unit relocates its position. This can happen during any phase.

Instead of its normal move, Solitaire can Blitz. The normal move that is being referenced is as above: relocating the model's position while remaining wholly within a number of inches dictated by the Move characteristic.

"Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase."

If you pick the Solitaire in the Movement phase and use its Blitz rule, you are picking a unit to move in the Movement phase, therefore you can declare to advance with it.

We're going around in circles here and getting nowhere. If there is no such thing as a Move or Normal Move action, what happens when I choose to move my model and not advance? What do we call that process? Hyper-relocation-as-per-the-rules-but-not-advancing? Sounds a bit daft to me.

Ask GW and await clarification.

Yes, please stop creating rules in your head where there is none. Else you get this:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We're going around in circles here and getting nowhere. If there is no such thing as a Move or Normal Move action, what happens when I choose to move my model and not advance? What do we call that process? Hyper-relocation-as-per-the-rules-but-not-advancing?

A move without advancing is a... move? Wow that was hard.

An Actual Englishman wrote:
"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


It clearly doesn't mean "move" ....

Wha... ?

Advancing has only one prerequisite to function: You have to pick a unit to move (in the movement phase).

Now the only question is: Does a Blitz move count as a move?

Option 1: Yes it does. -> You can advance.
Option 2: No it doesn't -> I can't advance, but now I can move within 1" of enemy units, I could fire heavy weapons without penalty (If the solitaire had one), and so on. Because it doesn't count as a move, the move restiction rules don't apply.

Which one do you pick?

It seems like the wording of the Blitz rule modifies the movement characteristics, not replaces a "normal move" with "blitz move".

"...if you do so, add 2D6" to the model's Move characteristic for this turn."

Otherwise, I think on a strict RAW standpoint, it SHOULD have been written "if you do so, the model's Move characteristic becomes 12+2D6" instead" or "if you do so, this model moves 2D6" plus the model's Move characteristic this turn."

The wording of the rule specifically modifies a characteristic as its function - it's not really replacing anything the way I see it.

I also can't seem to find "blitz move" is not a "normal move" and that advancing can only be applied to "normal move, only".

There also aren't any restrictions being able to stack different modifiers - only modifiers from the same ability doesn't stack per RAW. Why is it that +1d6" from advance can't stack with +2d6" from blitz?

Weidekuh wrote:
Yes, please stop creating rules in your head where there is none. Else you get this:

Not really creating rules in my head though am I? It's right there in the rule book. You can declare to advance (before you move) or you can declare to move. If you do one you cannot do the other. If I blitz (move) I cannot advance because I have elected to move (although the normal move is replaced by the Blitz)

Weidekuh wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We're going around in circles here and getting nowhere. If there is no such thing as a Move or Normal Move action, what happens when I choose to move my model and not advance? What do we call that process? Hyper-relocation-as-per-the-rules-but-not-advancing?

A move without advancing is a... move? Wow that was hard.

I think you'll find I was responding to this, genius;

 Kharneth wrote:
There is no such thing as a normal move.

Weidekuh wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:
"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance,..."


It clearly doesn't mean "move" ....

Wha... ?

Quote my full line there rather than cut it off mid sentence, or you take things completely out of context which is strawman 101.

Weidekuh wrote:
Advancing has only one prerequisite to function: You have to pick a unit to move (in the movement phase).

That, and declare that you are advancing.

Weidekuh wrote:
Now the only question is: Does a Blitz move count as a move?

Not the only question though, see above.

Weidekuh wrote:
Option 1: Yes it does. -> You can advance.
Option 2: No it doesn't -> I can't advance, but now I can move within 1" of enemy units, I could fire heavy weapons without penalty (If the solitaire had one), and so on. Because it doesn't count as a move, the move restiction rules don't apply.

Which one do you pick?

Again, see above.

An Actual Englishman: "Not really creating rules in my head though am I? It's right there in the rule book. You can declare to advance (before you move) or you can declare to move. If you do one you cannot do the other. If I blitz (move) I cannot advance because I have elected to move (although the normal move is replaced by the Blitz)"

Bolded is untrue.

There is no such thing as declaring to move. In the movement phase, units can move. Only Advancing is a declaration. Your units can move during the movement phase and you move them by keeping them within inches equal to your movement characteristic. There is no "Move or Advance," that's not a rule, that's not an option.

During the movement phase you have 2 options, you can:
1) Move
2) Not Move

If you move during the movement phase (option #1) than you can declare that you are advancing.

It's that simple. There is no special "normal move" which is a separate thing from an advance.You either move or you don't move, and if you move you can choose to advance which tacks on additional rules and restrictions to your move - you get further distance, but can only shoot assault weapons and cannot charge.

You must declare to advance before moving.

You are right in that normally you don't declare to move but if you declare that you are going to Blitz you have just declared that you are going to move as the Blitz rules, hence you cannot Advance?

I don't see the confusion here, ask GW, I'm out and have given my opinion enough.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
It clearly doesn't mean "move" as in "complete a move action" because again, they are different things (advancing and moving). This is easily evidenced. They have different rules associated with them and they act differently.

I clearly cited where both a normal move and a Blitz move are both stated as moves. Advance says "when you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase..." Note it doesn't specify what kind of move.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
And to repeat myself from earlier;
No. Rules-wise, Advance is not an "extension" to your normal move, but an alternative to your normal move which extends your movement characteristic by D6" in return for some limitations. But it's an entirely different thing from "normal move".

Just because you repeat yourself doesn't make it true. Rules citation please. It's something that they say adds to your move characteristic. A Bltiz move is a move which also adds to your characteristic. Advance is said to be able to be used when you select a unit to move, and there's not statement that it is only a normal move. Blitz moves do not state they prohibit also Advancing. All you cave is your theory on how they are different, without really backing it up with rules citations. I gave you rules citations for my position.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You must declare to advance before moving.

You are right in that normally you don't declare to move but if you declare that you are going to Blitz you have just declared that you are going to move as the Blitz rules, hence you cannot Advance?

I don't see the confusion here, ask GW, I'm out and have given my opinion enough.

Neither the Blitz rules nor the Advance rules say that they cannot work together.

Blitz says that you increase your Move characteristic by 2d6".

Advance says that you must move during the movement phase in order to declare that you will advance.

So, it's my turn with Solitaire and I decide that I'm going to move him, but instead of a normal move I'm going to Blitz. Because Blitz is a move during the movement phase, I'm going to advance.

There is nothing in the rules that suggests this shouldn't be allowed. The move that is being replaced by Blitz is the standard move that is on its datasheet, not the new move that is 2d6" faster. None of this has anything to do with advancing, it's just a modification of the unit's characteristic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You must declare to advance before moving.

You are right in that normally you don't declare to move but if you declare that you are going to Blitz you have just declared that you are going to move as the Blitz rules, hence you cannot Advance?

I don't see the confusion here, ask GW, I'm out and have given my opinion enough.

From the battle primer:

Advance
When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all
models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot
or charge later that turn.

But advancing only cares if you moved or not. It doesn't care HOW you moved. When a rule cares HOW you moved, there are precedents for these restrictions:

Falling Back
Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either
remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its
move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot
Advance (see below), or charge later that turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot
shoot later that turn unless it can Fly.

Here we see that when a unit performs a specific move called "Falling Back", it cannot advance.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your interpretation.

Indeed

I declare advance
That means I move
I then declare blitz, so instead of a normal move - not a defined rule term, because it is not in caps or in bold - I make my move using blitz

Entirely works together, undeniably raw.

A term does not need to be in caps and bold to be a rules term. Why do you believe this to be the case? Where in the rule book is this stated?

It doesn't work because if you have Blitzed you have moved. If you have moved you cannot advance.

Let me make it abundantly clear -

You do not move then announce you're going to advance.
You state the model is advancing before it moves.
If the model is advancing it follows the rules for advancing as specified in the book. No blitz.
If the model is moving it cannot advance (and there is no need to announce this because there is only one alternative that you have not announced) because you can only do one or the other. This is absolutely defined in the rules.

Blitz states, as clear as day, that it replaces your NORMAL MOVE. You cannot, again, move and advance.

RAW you cannot Blifz and Advance. You could if Blitz only changed your movement characteristic for a turn (along with the other benefits). If it didn't state "this replaces your normal move".

It is irrelevant how many of you jump in and argue otherwise at this point. I know my feelings on the matter and until GW clarify I'll be playing this way. Ask GW. Also be aware that so far when I have weighed in on these rules discussions I have a 100% track record of going the way of the GW ruling. Could be a first for everything though. *shrug*

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

RAW you cannot Blifz and Advance. You could if Blitz only changed your movement characteristic for a turn (along with the other benefits). If it didn't state "this replaces your normal move".

Nothing in the blitz rule says "this replaces your normal move." Stop making things up that arent there. I already quoted the blitz rule. Here it is again, the relevant part.

"Once per battle, instead of making a normal move with the solitaire, you can make a blitz move with it. If you do so add 2D6" to the move characteristic for this turn...."

I have highlighted the important part in red. Blitz adds 2D6" to the solitairs 12" move characteristic. It doesnt replace anything. The solitairs move characteristic is now 12" + 2D6".

Advance :

"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase."

Advancing adds 1D6" to the move characteristic, which is then 12" + 2D6" + 1D6".

Sorry it says "instead of making a normal move". I stated this earlier. Repeatedly.

People I'm done here, I don't play harlies and have no vested interest in this discussion any longer. You're not going to convince me of your position and it doesn't look like I'm going to convince you so rather than just throw the same stuff back and forth at each other let's wait to see what GW say.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sorry it says "instead of making a normal move". I stated this earlier. Repeatedly.

And i repeatedly explained what that "instead of making a normal move" means. Its explained in the next sentence which i highlighted red.

Yep, it's abundantly clear that you advance then blitz.
Advance adds to your move
Blitz adds to your move

They both work together.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, it's abundantly clear that you advance then blitz.
Advance adds to your move
Blitz adds to your move

They both work together.

Yes, it's so clear we've had 3 pages of debate about it. -rolleyes-

I disagree that you can advance when using Blitz, but I fully admit it isn't clear cut one way or the other. To say otherwise is highly disingenuous.

@BaconCatBug

I don't understand why you disagree.
Is "Blitz" a move of some sort?
Does Advance require you to move?

If both are yes, then why does it not work?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, it's abundantly clear that you advance then blitz.
Advance adds to your move
Blitz adds to your move

They both work together.

Yes, it's so clear we've had 3 pages of debate about it. -rolleyes-

I disagree that you can advance when using Blitz, but I fully admit it isn't clear cut one way or the other. To say otherwise is highly disingenuous.

Blitz is a move
Advancing is done when you move
What's the issue?
You've so far cited no rules to show it is anything other than possible.

I have no idea who/what Solitaire is, but I sort of am guessing it's a Knight.

Does anyone here think that it'd be OP for Solitaire to be able to blitz and advance? Or is it solely that you don't think the rules support that chance?

A solitaire is a harlequin. If he can blitz and advance his average movement is 12" + 10,5". He can charge after advancing, and ignores models and terrain. Thats an average threat range on 29,5". When he blitzes he gets +2 attacks, for a total of 10 attacks, hitting on 2+, with a S5 AP AP-2 D1 weapon. And he has a 3+ invuln sv. For 98 pts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
A solitaire is a harlequin. If he can blitz and advance his average movement is 12" + 10,5". He can charge after advancing, and ignores models and terrain. Thats an average threat range on 29,5". When he blitzes he gets +2 attacks, for a total of 10 attacks, hitting on 2+, with a S5 AP AP-2 D1 weapon. And he has a 3+ invuln sv. For 98 pts.

All right then, and the idea here is that "the only way they is fair" is if Blitz replaces an Advance, effectively allowing it to Advance an extra d6"? It really seems like an implied reason for a lot of people's arguments here is that blitz+advance is simply too powerful to be intended?

The intent of the rule is clear. It gives it a speed and attack advantage. To claim it can advance too is asking for more advantage. Why? There’s no reason to get a double bonus. The rules intent is obvious, people should be happy with it.

The rules are also clear, as is the intent. Blitz makes him insanely fast in an insanely fast army. Everyone else can also move and advance and stil,c shrugs, so the itnet is that he can as wel.
When you Advance, you may move M plus d6
Blitz says, when moving, you can move M plus 2d6
None of those rules interrfere with each other

The rule is clear.

Except the rule replaces your normal movement, which is what allows you to advance.

Can we all agree that it's actually unclear and needs an errata or FAQ?

No one except the GW rules team knows the intent. If they wanted the solitaire not to advance they would have included it in the rule. Its pretty clear to me. No need for a FAQ.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except the rule replaces your normal movement, which is what allows you to advance.

Can we all agree that it's actually unclear and needs an errata or FAQ?

You cannot replace a normal move that does not exist in the first place. The only stipulation for advancing is that you move (not that you do a "normal move").

Yes, we ought to at least agree that it's unclear.

 Kharneth wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except the rule replaces your normal movement, which is what allows you to advance.

Can we all agree that it's actually unclear and needs an errata or FAQ?

You cannot replace a normal move that does not exist in the first place. The only stipulation for advancing is that you move (not that you do a "normal move").

Yes, we ought to at least agree that it's unclear.

It's not using normal as a noun, it's using normal as an adjective. A "Blitz move" is all one thing, and is not the same as a "move".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except the rule replaces your normal movement, which is what allows you to advance.

Can we all agree that it's actually unclear and needs an errata or FAQ?

You cannot replace a normal move that does not exist in the first place. The only stipulation for advancing is that you move (not that you do a "normal move").

Yes, we ought to at least agree that it's unclear.

It's not using normal as a noun, it's using normal as an adjective. A "Blitz move" is all one thing, and is not the same as a "move".

A blitz move is a move. You're right that a normal move and a blitz move are different, the problem is that advance doesn't say it works only on normal moves, it says it works on any moves as long as they are in the movement phase.

Advance doesn't work on any moves. Advance is it's own type of movement, distinct.

Look, this, to me, does not state that you need to move to use advance;

Advance :

"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase."

It says to me that instead of moving I may decide to advance. 'When you pick a unit to move' =/= 'When you move a unit' so I'm not sure why this is claimed to be an argument.

The question is, can I declare to be Advancing and Blitzing in the same movement phase? Personally, I think the way Blitz is currently worded it sounds as if it can only be used as a "normal move" which is not an 'Advance move'.

RAW, Advancing and Blitz are not actions, they are modifiers to characteristics.

The primer defines "Move (M): This is the speed at which a model moves across the battlefield." My interpretation is that a "normal move" is a move at a unit's unmodified move characteristic. To say a normal move is the entire section of movement would be to claim that when doing a blitz move you could ignore the normal movement rules, such as moving within 1" of an enemy, etc.

The rules for advancing say "When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase." No where in the advancing rules does it dictate an action for your unit, it simply modifies your movement characteristic.

Blitz says that you can make a Blitz move. So right there, you've done what is required for declaring to advance - you're picking a unit to move in the Movement phase. If you Blitz, you add 2d6" to your movement characteristic.

It's not a matter of Solitaire only being able to make a single "type" of movement, that's not what's happening. There is only 1 type of movement - moving. What is happening is Solitaire is stacking buffs. Can you usually stack buffs? Yes, usually. Solitaire is benefitting from 2 individual movement enhancements. I suspect that GW intended for Blitz to replace Advancing, but it doesn't say that and without that addition or an FAQ, there is no rule that stops you from Advancing when you Blitz. If anything, Blitz is one of the two prerequisites the Solitaire has for Advancing.

To me, something I can do with my models is an "action". It goes without saying that 'moving' and 'advancing' are actions as far as I'm concerned. As is Blitzing. If I declare I'm doing something, I'm doing an "action".

Take Advancing for example - as you've described above you believe it to be a modifier to a characteristic and not an action. I don't believe this to be the case because it implies that you add the D6 to the movement characteristic then act as normal with the rules of movement whereas in reality we must follow the rules for Advancing. This is why I believe them to be separate, distinct actions also.

I don't think RAW is as crystal clear here as you believe, but I think we all agree it needs clarity.

I don't think Blitz is one of the 2 prerequisites for Advancing either, RAW the Advancing rules don't say that you need to move to do it. It says that you need to pick a unit to move. It's not the same thing. Picking a unit to "Blitz" is surely not the same as picking a unit to "move"?

GW need to pull their finger out and end this discussion!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
To me, something I can do with my models is an "action". It goes without saying that 'moving' and 'advancing' are actions as far as I'm concerned. As is Blitzing. If I declare I'm doing something, I'm doing an "action".

Take Advancing for example - as you've described above you believe it to be a modifier to a characteristic and not an action. I don't believe this to be the case because it implies that you add the D6 to the movement characteristic then act as normal with the rules of movement whereas in reality we must follow the rules for Advancing. This is why I believe them to be separate, distinct actions also.

I don't think RAW is as crystal clear here as you believe, but I think we all agree it needs clarity.

I don't think Blitz is one of the 2 prerequisites for Advancing either, RAW the Advancing rules don't say that you need to move to do it. It says that you need to pick a unit to move. It's not the same thing. Picking a unit to "Blitz" is surely not the same as picking a unit to "move"?

GW need to pull their finger out and end this discussion!

You're just wrong, here.

For Advancing, you do exactly as I'm implying. When you Advance, you simply add the number to your movement characteristic for the movement phase and then follow the normal movement rules with additional rules for advancing. It's nothing more than an alteration, or modifier, to your characteristics and functions. When you are advancing, you are following the rules for movement with additional rules for advancing. You don't replace your movement rules with advance rules, that's incorrect.

The Advance rules say you have to pick a unit to move, like you say. When you pick Solitaire to move, you're good to advance. When you pick Solitaire to move and use it's Blitz special rule, it explicitly states you are doing a Blitz move. So, first off, you're selecting Solitaire to move, which means you can advance, then you are declaring that Solitaire will use Blitz, allowing it to do a Blitz move. You are still selecting a unit to move in the movement phase.

A Blitz move is a move that replaces the normal move. The normal move is 12". The Blitz move is 12+2d6". Both of these are moves. Advance requires you to move during the movement phase and what it does is change your move characteristic from "n" to "n+d6". So, what you end up with is 12+2d6+d6" movement to do a Blitz Advance. If GW did not intend this to be the case, they need to change the wording or just FAQ it.

Advancing is not an action, and it's very clear when you play a model that declares to advance and then stays perfectly still. It does not move, it completes no action, but it cannot charge and has -1 to hit with its assault weapons. RAW, Advancing is a modifier to your characteristics and it comes with its own unique ruleset. It is our minds that associate Advancing with the action of moving because of the implication of movement.

Not as my understanding of the rules dude.

Just because advance follows some of the same rules as movement, it does not mean to me it's a modifier and not its own action (though I can see why you'd think otherwise).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Just because advance follows some of the same rules as movement, it does not mean to me it's a modifier and not its own action (though I can see why you'd think otherwise).

Advance literally follows all of the rules for movement. Advance is a supplementary movement, which is why it's only a section of the rules for movement. Advance has only 3 rules: 1) +d6 to your Move characteristic for the entire Movement Phase, 2) You cannot charge, 3) You cannot shoot. Then special rules, such as Assault Weapon rules or Harlequin rules, override these basic rules.

I'm sorry, but your interpretation of the rules does not follow the way they're written and are coming from previous editions where Advancing was it's own action.

Can we just end this here? This argument is starting to do the dance of locking death. I think we can all agree that there are two sides;

Side 1 - Advancing is an action, separate and distinct from a Normal Move. Blitz is its own action, also being separate and distinct. As such, Blitz and Advance cannot be combined.

Side 2 - Advancing is a modification to a move that happens in the movement phase, not its own action, and so can also modify a Blitz move.

Result: Let's wait for GW to FAQ this. The two sides hinge on whether Advancing is or isn't an action but rather is or isn't a modification to a move. This simply isn't given sufficient clarity in the existing rules to come to an answer that both sides can agree upon. As a result, further arguing over this point is meaningless. as this interpretation is completely at the reader's discretion, and two vastly different answers will result from that interpretation.

 Yarium wrote:
Can we just end this here? This argument is starting to do the dance of locking death. I think we can all agree that there are two sides;

Side 1 - Advancing is an action, separate and distinct from a Normal Move. Blitz is its own action, also being separate and distinct. As such, Blitz and Advance cannot be combined.

Side 2 - Advancing is a modification to a move that happens in the movement phase, not its own action, and so can also modify a Blitz move.

Result: Let's wait for GW to FAQ this. The two sides hinge on whether Advancing is or isn't an action but rather is or isn't a modification to a move. This simply isn't given sufficient clarity in the existing rules to come to an answer that both sides can agree upon. As a result, further arguing over this point is meaningless. as this interpretation is completely at the reader's discretion, and two vastly different answers will result from that interpretation.

Thank you.

 Yarium wrote:


Result: Let's wait for GW to FAQ this. The two sides hinge on whether Advancing is or isn't an action but rather is or isn't a modification to a move. This simply isn't given sufficient clarity in the existing rules to come to an answer that both sides can agree upon. As a result, further arguing over this point is meaningless. as this interpretation is completely at the reader's discretion, and two vastly different answers will result from that interpretation.

Just because both sides don't agree doesn't mean that the existing rules are insufficient. There is sufficient clarity. You can read the rules for Movement and Advance a hundred times it will never say anything other than that Advancing is adding a number to a characteristic. Moving is an action, shooting is an action, attacking is an action.

Charging is it's own type of movement, just like Blitz. Under the Charging section, it is defined as a "charge move" just like Blitz is defined as a "Blitz move," however Advancing is not defined as an "Advance move," it is simply a declaration to increase the Move characteristic. It works very differently from previous editions. You don't move and then advance, you don't change your move into an advance, you modify your move with your advance. You add d6" to your normal move. This is clearly described.

 Kharneth wrote:
Just because both sides don't agree doesn't mean that the existing rules are insufficient. There is sufficient clarity. You can read the rules for Movement and Advance a hundred times it will never say anything other than that Advancing is adding a number to a characteristic. Moving is an action, shooting is an action, attacking is an action.

Charging is it's own type of movement, just like Blitz. Under the Charging section, it is defined as a "charge move" just like Blitz is defined as a "Blitz move," however Advancing is not defined as an "Advance move," it is simply a declaration to increase the Move characteristic. It works very differently from previous editions. You don't move and then advance, you don't change your move into an advance, you modify your move with your advance. You add d6" to your normal move. This is clearly described.

My point is that this argument has been shown to be ineffectual on convincing other people. It doesn't matter how right you believe this argument to be, the other side disagrees with a fundamental part of it. At the same time, the other side is utterly convinced on their argument, and it doesn't matter how right they believe it is, you won't agree with a fundamental part of their argument. Therefore, since you cannot both agree on a crucial part of the argument, the argument is effectively over, regardless of how many times you repeat the (effectively) same argument. It's done. It's over. You didn't win, you didn't lose, and any further arguments will just get the thread locked.

Maybe everyone can instead expend their energies emailing the FAQ hotline in hope of a definitive answer one day?

I asked my league and tournament organizer about this, who happens to be starting a Harlequin army, and he said that you cannot blitz and advance in the same turn, blitz is instead of advancing. I'm not sure if he'd change his mind after rereading the wording, but that was good enough for me. I hope to see it FAQed, though because it's so ambiguous.

At this point that's the best you can hope for until there's a FAQ on it. At least you know how your local league and tournaments are going to handle it.

 Kharneth wrote:
I asked my league and tournament organizer about this, who happens to be starting a Harlequin army, and he said that you cannot blitz and advance in the same turn, blitz is instead of advancing. I'm not sure if he'd change his mind after rereading the wording, but that was good enough for me. I hope to see it FAQed, though because it's so ambiguous.

I think this is the most agreeable interpretation of the rule:

Blitz is a special type of advance, and therefore a solitaire cannot advance and blitz as this would equate to advancing twice which obviously isn't allowed, rather than "you can't blitz and advance because blitz replaces [NORMAL MOVE] with [BLITZ MOVE], and advance only works for [NORMAL MOVE].

 skchsan wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
I asked my league and tournament organizer about this, who happens to be starting a Harlequin army, and he said that you cannot blitz and advance in the same turn, blitz is instead of advancing. I'm not sure if he'd change his mind after rereading the wording, but that was good enough for me. I hope to see it FAQed, though because it's so ambiguous.

I think this is the most agreeable interpretation of the rule:

Blitz is a special type of advance, and therefore a solitaire cannot advance and blitz as this would equate to advancing twice which obviously isn't allowed, rather than "you can't blitz and advance because blitz replaces [NORMAL MOVE] with [BLITZ MOVE], and advance only works for [NORMAL MOVE].

Agreed, though it's not even close to how the rules are written, I suspect the intention of Blitz was to be a buffed up Advance.

Except it isn't anything like advance. It doesn't come with the usual restrictions, for example.

Blitz has nothing to do with advance. The word advance does not appear in the blitz rule. Thats why i dont like tournaments, TOs can throw RAW out of the window and decide whatever they want, the exact opposite, if they feel like it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except it isn't anything like advance. It doesn't come with the usual restrictions, for example.

Yeah I don't know how he plays it, but I think Harlequins largely ignore the advance penalties anyway. I think the only restriction they'll have is being unable to shoot their pistols. I'm guessing he plays Blitz as a replacement for advancing but is not penalized by the advancing rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
Blitz has nothing to do with advance. The word advance does not appear in the blitz rule. Thats why i dont like tournaments, TOs can throw RAW out of the window and decide whatever they want, the exact opposite, if they feel like it.

To be fair, I approached him randomly in person. He didn't sit down and examine the rules. It's very possible that in the future he'll have a more educated response. My buddy is about to start Harlequins, so I'll be curious about his interpretation. For me, I don't care if they blitz and advance or only blitz, it's just important to know which will be happening for planning purposes in game.

 Kharneth wrote:

To be fair, I approached him randomly in person. He didn't sit down and examine the rules. It's very possible that in the future he'll have a more educated response. My buddy is about to start Harlequins, so I'll be curious about his interpretation. For me, I don't care if they blitz and advance or only blitz, it's just important to know which will be happening for planning purposes in game.

Thats my point. He doesnt have to examine the rules. He can decide whatever he wants, ignoring RAW. Its hard to plan for the game if the TO decides against RAW.

 p5freak wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

To be fair, I approached him randomly in person. He didn't sit down and examine the rules. It's very possible that in the future he'll have a more educated response. My buddy is about to start Harlequins, so I'll be curious about his interpretation. For me, I don't care if they blitz and advance or only blitz, it's just important to know which will be happening for planning purposes in game.

Thats my point. He doesnt have to examine the rules. He can decide whatever he wants, ignoring RAW. Its hard to plan for the game if the TO decides against RAW.

Well, he's the one playing Harlequins and saying "if you could blitz and advance that'd be craaazy!" So my situation didn't bother me. I also asked him about order of operations when disembarking from a vehicle and he didn't think there was anything wrong with moving the vehicle before moving the disembarked unit. It's true that it'd be nice to have clear rules and TOs who follow the RAW, but I think that's a little idealistic and I'm content with just agreeing on however the rest of my community is playing.

Flavor & mechanical text for both advance and blitz share common term "add X to Move characteristic". Both mechanics are things that modify Move characteristic by addition - it does not, mechanically, change the actual Move characteristic in the sense that the actual stat is changed (i.e. orikan the diviner turning into orikan the empowered).

 skchsan wrote:
Flavor & mechanical text for both advance and blitz share common term "add X to Move characteristic". Both mechanics are things that modify Move characteristic by addition - it does not, mechanically, change the actual Move characteristic in the sense that the actual stat is changed (i.e. orikan the diviner turning into orikan the empowered).

I don't follow. Both Blitz and Advance modify your Move characteristic for that movement phase. That's why if you move again during the movement phase you don't roll to advance again, you simply move at your new movement speed which includes the advance roll you make prior. If you move again during a different phase (psychic or shooting) you can roll to advance again. The mechanics clearly describe themselves as modifiers to the Move characteristic and the FAQ seems to support this definition.

 Kharneth wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Flavor & mechanical text for both advance and blitz share common term "add X to Move characteristic". Both mechanics are things that modify Move characteristic by addition - it does not, mechanically, change the actual Move characteristic in the sense that the actual stat is changed (i.e. orikan the diviner turning into orikan the empowered).

I don't follow. Both Blitz and Advance modify your Move characteristic for that movement phase. That's why if you move again during the movement phase you don't roll to advance again, you simply move at your new movement speed which includes the advance roll you make prior. If you move again during a different phase (psychic or shooting) you can roll to advance again. The mechanics clearly describe themselves as modifiers to the Move characteristic and the FAQ seems to support this definition.

What I'm trying to get at is the concept of "modifies" vs "alters". Both blitz and advance modifies the value of the Move characteristic. Certain other functions in game outright alters the characteristic (i.e. the orikan example above).

So then, it would come down to ruling of "can characteristics be modified multiple times?"

Of course they can
The rules faq confirms this, by telling you how to find current strength of a model

I mean, I still believe that there is no rules justification for claiming that you cannot blitz and advance at once. They're just modifiers to characteristics and these can be stacked unless otherwise noted.

Yep, you're even told how to do so.
There is no rule preventing blitz and advance. There is no convincing argument against it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, you're even told how to do so.
There is no rule preventing blitz and advance. There is no convincing argument against it.

Yes, there is. It's called "Move != Bliz Move", or "Advance replaces Move, not Blitz Move".

 skchsan wrote:

So then, it would come down to ruling of "can characteristics be modified multiple times?"

Yes, of course. There is a rule giving poxwalkers +1 toughness (typhus buffs them with an ability) and another rule (DG psychic power, i dont remember the name) gives them +1 toughness, the total is +2 toughness.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, you're even told how to do so.
There is no rule preventing blitz and advance. There is no convincing argument against it.

Yes, there is. It's called "Move != Bliz Move", or "Advance replaces Move, not Blitz Move".

Move is defined by GW in their rules as picking up a model and placing it somewhere else wholly within the number of inches indicated on its datasheet. Both blitz and advance are clearly described as modifiers to that same move characteristic. You cannot Blitz or Advance without moving and you can do both only as long as you are moving.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, you're even told how to do so.
There is no rule preventing blitz and advance. There is no convincing argument against it.

Yes, there is. It's called "Move != Bliz Move", or "Advance replaces Move, not Blitz Move".

I think the flavor text here is being taken a bit too literally. The mechanical interaction of the rule is clearly explained as "add X to Move characteristic".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, you're even told how to do so.
There is no rule preventing blitz and advance. There is no convincing argument against it.

Yes, there is. It's called "Move != Bliz Move", or "Advance replaces Move, not Blitz Move".

But does advance say when you move, or when you Move?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, you're even told how to do so.
There is no rule preventing blitz and advance. There is no convincing argument against it.

Yes, there is. It's called "Move != Bliz Move", or "Advance replaces Move, not Blitz Move".

No such thing as a blitz move. There is the blitz ability which tells you what to do when you move. There's also advance, which also tells you what to do when you move.
Blitz tells you when you move to do... as dies advance. Both allow you to move M+ a modifier.

Neither rule is stopped. Fir a raw guy you seem to really struggle here.

Looks like GW did actually wade in on this, sort of.

The Harlequins Faction Focus on the Warhammer Community site kind of put this debate to bed.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/07/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-harlequins-june6/

"However, the truly juicy ability he has that sets him apart from the rest is Blitz. The Blitz ability allows you to move an extra 2D6” and gain 2 Attacks once per game. With the fact your army can advance and charge, that’s a potential 30” move!"

I know that isn't a faq, but it certainly sets a pretty solid precedent