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Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 15:34:55


Post by: Cephalobeard


Our Codex has been released!

Let's begin with tactical discussion, now that we're fully established.

What information do you expect from the coming FAQ?

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of FW Knights?

Which house do you prefer?

Point Values?

Carrying over from our previous index thread.

Below I'm including weapon math/stats.

[Thumb - knightart-05.png]


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 15:38:19


Post by: JNAProductions


Thoughts on what to add to a Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet?

Leaning towards House Mortan for them.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 15:44:13


Post by: Cephalobeard


My local meta has shifted to 1750.

Until the FW FAQ happens and I can use a Lancer, i'm wanting to use Taranis with 2x Crusader and a Gallant, but I'm struggling to fit that in with an adequate amount of allies for enough CP to keep a Knight alive constantly.

Any ideas?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 15:57:08


Post by: greyknight12


Is there a reason other than non-paragon fists that people are advocating Mortan over Krast? Re-rolling hits gives you 5% more hits with WS3+, 9% more on WS4+, and 16% more with WS2+. You lose 9% vs a +1 when you’re WS2+ with a -1. For most knights then it seems that Krast (re-roll failed hits) is slightly better than Mortan (+1 to hit).


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 16:03:41


Post by: JNAProductions


Isn't Krast only when you charge, though?

Whereas Mortan is charging, being charged, or Heroic Intervention?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 16:13:01


Post by: greyknight12


 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't Krast only when you charge, though?

Whereas Mortan is charging, being charged, or Heroic Intervention?

Nope, Krast is also charged, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention. It additionally always gives a re-roll against titanics.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 16:24:08


Post by: Mandragola


I think it’s really difficult to pick which house is best, which is great. There are houses that have stand-out traits but others that have great warlord traits, stratagems or relics.

For example Raven looks amazing on a Valiant with landstrider. It can now attack at full effect on turn 1, probably managing to get all of its guns into range. And they also have a great stratagem. I’d be amused to see what would happen if someone took 3 house raven Valiants at 1750 - they come to 1749 points for 3 if you take 4 missiles each.

If anything the stratagems make more difference than any other factor when choosing a house. I guess the house Raven trait does stand out because it lets you do something that you couldn’t otherwise - advance and fire - though actually that’s not a huge issue for most knights. They are fairly quick and have long-ranged guns anyway. But otherwise there are a lot of versions of “be a little bit better in close combat”.

On the other hand the stratagems allow knights from different houses to do radically different things. A house Terryn knight fighting a second time is kind of incredible, for example. The hawkshroud strat to let a knight fire overwatch when a friend gets charged could be huge, especially if it lets you fire traitor’s pyre at people more often. The raven one is a huge increase in damage output for a castellan or crusader, and the Taranis one where a dead knight gets back up again could obviously change games - especially if there’s a CP left to have it fight at full effect in the following turn.

The house-specific relics on the other hand don’t seem all that interesting at all. The stand-out one for me is Angel’s Grace for hawkshroud. This could be a good option if you came up against a smite spam enemy, halving the damage they’d send at you. But even then you could probably manage easily without it. The generic stuff like Cawl’s Wrath and the Paragon Gauntlet seem much more interesting to me.

The 1750 point list I’m looking at running is:

House Taranis Lance.

Castellan with Ion Bulwark and Cawl’s wrath. 4 missiles and 1 turret to save points.

Warden with reaper and ironstorm pod.

Errant with fist

2 Armiger Warglaives with stubbers.

In any given game I’ll generally give either the paragon gauntlet (or maybe the 2+ save) to the Errant or endless fury to the warden. The other will get cunning commander for 0CP. That way all three of the knights will be characters, which could come in handy for the odd heroic intervention.

So I’ll begin most games with 5 CPs, or 6 if it really doesn’t matter to have the second relic. That isn’t loads but I think it should be enough to do some stuff.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 16:51:17


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


 JNAProductions wrote:
Thoughts on what to add to a Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet?

Leaning towards House Mortan for them.


Other than a Stormspear if you can afford it? I'd go Raven if you're rocking the Paragon Gauntlet so you get that extra mobility and can still shoot, then charge turn 2. If you're open to other relics, I'd give the Headman's Mark a look. It's Krast only so no matter what melee weapon you take you're going to be effective with rerolls (I like the thunderstrike gauntlet myself) but with that relic it'll give you +1 damage to all your weapons if you're attacking models with 10+ wounds or +2 damage if it's against Titanic units so it's almost like you have a Paragon Gauntlet anyway. In addition you get to fire a 3 damage Avenger Gatling Cannon at vehicles which is pretty great, especially against T6 things like Aeldari and Necron vehicles with Quantum Shielding. No idea how effective it will be on the table vs taking a Raven Warden with a Paragon Gauntlet instead but it's at least an interesting idea on paper.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 17:03:40


Post by: Crimson


Krast relic seems pretty damn strong to me.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 17:07:08


Post by: Inevitableq


So this is what im currently planning on trying.
The castellan will get cawls wrath and either cunning commander or ion bulwark
The crusader will get endless fury and blessed by the sacristans.
Spoiler:

(Imperium - Imperial Knights) [100 PL, 1991pts]

. Questor Mechanicus: House Raven

Lord of War

Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 374pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Meltagun
. Armiger Helverin: Meltagun

Knight Castellan [30 PL, 604pts]: Character
. Two Siegebreaker Cannons & Two Shieldbreaker Missiles: 2x Shieldbreaker Missile, 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 501pts]: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm missile pod
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Rapid-fire battle cannon w/ heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

Knight Warden [23 PL, 432pts]:Heavy stubber, Ironstorm missile pod, Thunderstrike gauntlet
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

Fortification

Sacristan Forgeshrine [4 PL, 80pts]

Total: [100 PL, 1991pts]



What do we all think if this?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 17:13:29


Post by: Mandragola


 Crimson wrote:
Krast relic seems pretty damn strong to me.

Yes, that’s true. It’s probably the only thing that competes with Cawl’s wrath for a castellan, especially paired with the first knight warlord trait. It’s the only household where I’d seriously consider running two castellans, using those two relics.

Krast seems to me like the best of the “a bit better in cc” ones. Rerolling all missed is strong, especially for stuff like death grip. If I didn’t already have four knights in Taranis colours I’d give Krast really serious consideration.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 17:15:42


Post by: Crimson


Ditch the shrine, it is completely useless.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 17:32:33


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Probably a stupid question- How do you get the most out of House Raven's ability? It seems to me that you want to advance with you knight but then you have to spend 2 CP to allow it to charge. Am I missing something?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 17:53:41


Post by: dadamowsky


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Probably a stupid question- How do you get the most out of House Raven's ability? It seems to me that you want to advance with you knight but then you have to spend 2 CP to allow it to charge. Am I missing something?

The most obvious use for me is to deploy safely in the back preventing from opponent's turn 1 shooting/smiting barrage, and rushing forward your turn to have a range for weapons anyway. Won't be as efficient in DoW deployment, but most of deployment scenarios would benefit. Or, you can simply be present anywhere on the table, whenever knight is needed. And you can charge for 2CP as you've noticed, so you're not wasting a turn's potential either in shooting, or in charging.

The thing I'm torn over now, what would you choose for an Admech super-heavy support? A Krast Warden + 2 Warglaives, or Raven Crusader + 2 Warglaives? Yes, I want Warglaives in both cases


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 17:59:55


Post by: StarHunter25


I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 18:06:31


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by. Landstrider as the WL trait will let them get into the action that much quicker as well.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 18:07:09


Post by: dadamowsky


StarHunter25 wrote:
I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.

On the other hand Krast let's you efficiently beat a hell out of Magnus or Mortarion in CC (they've got the Titanic keyword if I'm not mistaken), which makes me smile just like that
But I get your point, I'm leaning toward Raven myself.

If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by.

That makes Alaitoc less annoying... I guess I'm sold to the idea now. [EDIT Or not, it's only once per battle and on a specific unit; I'd rather run house Mortan in that case]. The bummer Preceptor has this weird short ranged laser, I'd rather run Avenger, or RFBC. Or both.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 18:57:17


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


For those who saw my Raven/Scion list in the other thread and said the Plasma was redundant, due to Knights having answers. Well, if I run into too many targets for my Knights to address, all that plasma helps. Though I may bump the 5 man squad to a cheap option and maybe find wiggle room for some more dudes or maybe a Taurox option.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 19:06:37


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


dadamowsky wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.

On the other hand Krast let's you efficiently beat a hell out of Magnus or Mortarion in CC (they've got the Titanic keyword if I'm not mistaken), which makes me smile just like that
But I get your point, I'm leaning toward Raven myself.

If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by.

That makes Alaitoc less annoying... I guess I'm sold to the idea now. [EDIT Or not, it's only once per battle and on a specific unit; I'd rather run house Mortan in that case]. The bummer Preceptor has this weird short ranged laser, I'd rather run Avenger, or RFBC. Or both.


Nope, the Helm Dominatus is once per battle round so you're using it every turn. The las-impulsor does seem like a poor man's AGC/TC but it's better than nothing and can pull double duty as anti infantry/vehicle if need be which makes it versatile at least.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 19:40:07


Post by: ph34r


What do y'all knight players think of the Knight Styrix? As a Mechanicus player I have been building one with this as a goal:

Knight Styrix
reaper chainsword - relic: reroll 1s to hit, strength 16
volkite chierovile: 45" heavy 5 strength 8 AP -3 damage d6, wound roll of 6 generates additional hit on target
house Mortan: no household bonus because Auxiliary detachment
house Mortan warlord trait: -1 to be hit from 18" or further away
house Mortan stratagem: 1cp ignore all negative shooting modifiers, for enemy -2 to hit Alaitoc flyers
other special defensive properties: 4++ vs shooting 5++ vs melee from Knight Styrix special ability
other special defensive properties: regenerate 1 wound per turn on a 6 from Knight Styrix special ability
other special offensive properties: ignore cover (except va vehicles) from Knight Styrix special ability

475 points, 2 command points


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 19:55:09


Post by: Ideasweasel


What to pair up with a Porphyrion?

@2k

@3k

Any thoughts? I’m collecting knights and Admech at the moment


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 20:07:58


Post by: Audustum


dadamowsky wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
I think a big thing bonus for Raven is against smite spam. Let's you position to choose what they zap while maintaining firepower, then use Benevolance to just lol away all those MW on a single 5+.

On the other hand Krast let's you efficiently beat a hell out of Magnus or Mortarion in CC (they've got the Titanic keyword if I'm not mistaken), which makes me smile just like that
But I get your point, I'm leaning toward Raven myself.

If you're set on taking Warglaives, a Raven Preceptor with the Helm Dominatus might not be a bad idea to get the most out of them. Gives them +1 to their hit rolls every turn against any enemy unit within 24" and the Preceptor let's them reroll 1's to hit while they're close by.

That makes Alaitoc less annoying... I guess I'm sold to the idea now. [EDIT Or not, it's only once per battle and on a specific unit; I'd rather run house Mortan in that case]. The bummer Preceptor has this weird short ranged laser, I'd rather run Avenger, or RFBC. Or both.


They do NOT have the Titanic keyword last I checked.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 20:25:04


Post by: Inevitableq


 Crimson wrote:
Ditch the shrine, it is completely useless.


Its filling points as i literally have zero imperial units out side of:
Shrine
Castellan
Valiant
2x questoris magnatized for all options
2x helverin
4x warglaive


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 20:33:09


Post by: Ice_can


Inevitableq wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Ditch the shrine, it is completely useless.


Its filling points as i literally have zero imperial units out side of:
Shrine
Castellan
Valiant
2x questoris magnatized for all options
2x helverin
4x warglaive

Carapace weapons are better than the shrine.
Might take some Ebay hunting but shouldn't be too expensive with some searching as your not after the guantlet or avenger like most people.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/11 20:49:51


Post by: Kdash


 greyknight12 wrote:
Is there a reason other than non-paragon fists that people are advocating Mortan over Krast? Re-rolling hits gives you 5% more hits with WS3+, 9% more on WS4+, and 16% more with WS2+. You lose 9% vs a +1 when you’re WS2+ with a -1. For most knights then it seems that Krast (re-roll failed hits) is slightly better than Mortan (+1 to hit).


So, the reason i'm going Mortan over Krast is because of the following -

A Crusader with -1 to hit over 18", with the ability to ignore all penalties when firing it's weapons.
A Valiant with the relic flamer (Imperial Knights only)
Gallant charging 1st turn, then being able to death grip on a 2+ whilst having something like the 2+ save relic. (this admittedly can be any household, but Mortan helps if an opportunity to use Death Grip appears)
I also want to take the banner relic, which is also Imperial only. I think it is a really under-rated relic.

Krast's relic doesn't really do much for me. +1 dmg vs tanks and certain dreadnoughts, and big daemons/daemon primarchs, +2 vs titanic. It might turn out to be super clutch if Knights start to swamp the meta, but, it feels completely situational. Likewise, the stratagem is only going to really give you 2-3 more hits "on average" and can't be used alongside death grip etc. To me, there are just more important stratagems in the book, and often not enough cp to go around.

Personally, i think the best use of Krast's warlord trait and relic, is on a Crusader - but, how often are you going to be firing the Gatling cannon at T7+ 10 Wound+ models? And would you choose the Krask relic over the Gatling relic?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 00:18:09


Post by: Mandragola


Kdash wrote:
 greyknight12 wrote:
Is there a reason other than non-paragon fists that people are advocating Mortan over Krast? Re-rolling hits gives you 5% more hits with WS3+, 9% more on WS4+, and 16% more with WS2+. You lose 9% vs a +1 when you’re WS2+ with a -1. For most knights then it seems that Krast (re-roll failed hits) is slightly better than Mortan (+1 to hit).


So, the reason i'm going Mortan over Krast is because of the following -

A Crusader with -1 to hit over 18", with the ability to ignore all penalties when firing it's weapons.
A Valiant with the relic flamer (Imperial Knights only)
Gallant charging 1st turn, then being able to death grip on a 2+ whilst having something like the 2+ save relic. (this admittedly can be any household, but Mortan helps if an opportunity to use Death Grip appears)
I also want to take the banner relic, which is also Imperial only. I think it is a really under-rated relic.

Krast's relic doesn't really do much for me. +1 dmg vs tanks and certain dreadnoughts, and big daemons/daemon primarchs, +2 vs titanic. It might turn out to be super clutch if Knights start to swamp the meta, but, it feels completely situational. Likewise, the stratagem is only going to really give you 2-3 more hits "on average" and can't be used alongside death grip etc. To me, there are just more important stratagems in the book, and often not enough cp to go around.

Personally, i think the best use of Krast's warlord trait and relic, is on a Crusader - but, how often are you going to be firing the Gatling cannon at T7+ 10 Wound+ models? And would you choose the Krask relic over the Gatling relic?

The trick with the Krast relic might be that you don't have to take it. Pick an army with some other relic. Maybe a Castellan with First Knight and Cawl's Wrath, for example.

Then take a Crusader with a RFBC. It's a good unit in its own right. If you come against someone with the right kind of targets, give it the relic with a stratagem and watch it obliterate stuff.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 00:46:28


Post by: kinratha



Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]


What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 01:22:58


Post by: the_Grak


 kinratha wrote:

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]


What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.


Until FAQ'd, none of the FW knights have the Imperial Knights keyword, and if taken in a detachment with Codex knights they all lose the Knight Lance and Household Traditions special rules (as they require every unit to have the Imperial Knight keyword).

Unless I'm mistaken, RAW this means that if you took a FW knight and Questor Imperialis Armigers you could get the +3CP from a normal Super Heavy Detachment (but not the Household Traditions and no models would be a character).


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 01:31:59


Post by: Mandragola


the_Grak wrote:
 kinratha wrote:

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]


What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.


Until FAQ'd, none of the FW knights have the Imperial Knights keyword, and if taken in a detachment with Codex knights they all lose the Knight Lance and Household Traditions special rules (as they require every unit to have the Imperial Knight keyword).

Unless I'm mistaken, RAW this means that if you took a FW knight and Questor Imperialis Armigers you could get the +3CP from a normal Super Heavy Detachment (but not the Household Traditions and no models would be a character).

Right, but it's reasonable to assume this will be FAQd shortly to something rational. I don't think we should have to wait for that to happen before discussing whether we think FW knights are any good.

Let's assume that RAI is for FW knights to count for lances, to have the right keywords and so on. Would you take them?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 02:07:14


Post by: the_Grak


Spoiler:
Mandragola wrote:
the_Grak wrote:
 kinratha wrote:

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]


What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.


Until FAQ'd, none of the FW knights have the Imperial Knights keyword, and if taken in a detachment with Codex knights they all lose the Knight Lance and Household Traditions special rules (as they require every unit to have the Imperial Knight keyword).

Unless I'm mistaken, RAW this means that if you took a FW knight and Questor Imperialis Armigers you could get the +3CP from a normal Super Heavy Detachment (but not the Household Traditions and no models would be a character).

Right, but it's reasonable to assume this will be FAQd shortly to something rational. I don't think we should have to wait for that to happen before discussing whether we think FW knights are any good.

Let's assume that RAI is for FW knights to count for lances, to have the right keywords and so on. Would you take them?


If the Styrix gets a point drop then I'd be tempted. A build with House Taranis, Landstrider, and a 2+ armor save seems pretty damn resilient. 2+/4++(5++ against melee)/6+FNP/ and heal 1 wound every turn on a 5+ before stratagems. Landstrider gets him into the thick of it to make the most of his durability.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 02:11:55


Post by: Inevitableq


Ice_can wrote:
Inevitableq wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Ditch the shrine, it is completely useless.


Its filling points as i literally have zero imperial units out side of:
Shrine
Castellan
Valiant
2x questoris magnatized for all options
2x helverin
4x warglaive

Carapace weapons are better than the shrine.
Might take some Ebay hunting but shouldn't be too expensive with some searching as your not after the guantlet or avenger like most people.
carapace weapons besides what they already have?
Both questoris models have ironstorm missles equipped already. Do i really want more meltas? Both helverins have meltas already so the shrine would just be replaced by dead points and 2 more meltas on the questoris models.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 02:24:43


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Personally, I think a Gallant is good enough with its basic weaponery such that it doesn't need to further add on hierlooms like that paragon gauntlet. If you are already hitting stuff with a WS 2+ and you have access to a basic reaper chainsword and a thunderstrike Gauntlet, there aren't many things that would stand up to you in close combat when you charge them.

Actually, we might want to consider how well an IK army fares against other good lists right now rather than just against rival IK lists. somehow, I don't think we will always be playing only other IK lists as our opponents.

And while the full tilt strategem sounds really yummy, please don't forget that screens are almost mandatory for good lists these days. It is likely that using that 2 cp full tilt strategem will just result in your gallant charging into a cheap screen. Some lists have multiple screens, so kill one and they will have the next one ready nearby to prevent you from getting to their important units.

Consider what this index did to buff up other imperium lists. Astra Mimilarium just got a super cheap 354 point imperial knight Gallant that is a monster in close combat and great for counter charging. They can flood the board with cheap bodies, have tons of CP, and we all know how devastating their artillery can get. Now for just 354 points, they can now also have a Gallant that shores up on AM's biggest weakness.. close combat melee.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 06:50:20


Post by: Kdash


A penny for your thoughts regarding the Gallant.

If the intention is to get into combat turn 1 and not be house Raven. Do you think it is pointless taking a carapace weapon? My thoughts are more aligned to either not going first/turn 2 onwards, but, it is 16-45 points that could just be wasted if it dies first turn.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 07:39:53


Post by: Invul


Apply Blessed By the Sancristans on your Gallant’s feet, have fun.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 08:30:28


Post by: grouchoben


Barebones all the way for me. 354pts that absolutely has to be shot off the board.

Alongside a cheap IG battalion, we're talking 534pts for 5cps, chaff/board control and a 'shootme!' CC monster. I think a lot of Imperium armies are going to be including that as their baseline, before adding their favourite BA/DW/SoB/Custard elements.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 08:33:22


Post by: Mandragola


the_Grak wrote:
Spoiler:
Mandragola wrote:
the_Grak wrote:
 kinratha wrote:

Will FW provides a FAQ, allowing the use of Forgeworld.[/b]


What exactly is stopping us from using forgeworld? Besides a few stratagems and relics, I didn't see any specific restrictions.

The Knight lancer as House Terryn with the Warlord trait of Knight senschal and Helm of the nameless warrior looks pretty nice.


Until FAQ'd, none of the FW knights have the Imperial Knights keyword, and if taken in a detachment with Codex knights they all lose the Knight Lance and Household Traditions special rules (as they require every unit to have the Imperial Knight keyword).

Unless I'm mistaken, RAW this means that if you took a FW knight and Questor Imperialis Armigers you could get the +3CP from a normal Super Heavy Detachment (but not the Household Traditions and no models would be a character).

Right, but it's reasonable to assume this will be FAQd shortly to something rational. I don't think we should have to wait for that to happen before discussing whether we think FW knights are any good.

Let's assume that RAI is for FW knights to count for lances, to have the right keywords and so on. Would you take them?


If the Styrix gets a point drop then I'd be tempted. A build with House Taranis, Landstrider, and a 2+ armor save seems pretty damn resilient. 2+/4++(5++ against melee)/6+FNP/ and heal 1 wound every turn on a 5+ before stratagems. Landstrider gets him into the thick of it to make the most of his durability.

Maybe. I wouldn’t go for landstrider, as he can’t fire if he advances. Landstrider is mainly good for house Raven, or for zerging a Gallant across the board.

Durability is a bit tricky, because really it’s about how hard it is to kill any given amount of points in your army. So plaguebearers are tougher than terminators, because they are harder to get rid of, despite being much less tough individually. Actually, Styrix aren’t in a bad place here, as they are significantly tougher with their 4++. If they come down in price at all they’ll look pretty good.

The other problem with it is that it’s only relevant if you’re being attacked. You could end up in the situation where the Styrix is the least threatening of your knights, and the hardest to kill. In that scenario your opponent would do well to ignore the thing and focus his firepower elsewhere - which then negates the Styrix’s advantage.

This is why the Ion bulwark warlord trait is so important for a Castellan. It’s a very high-threat knight, costing nearly 50% more than a questoris but with only 16% more wounds. So it’s a great target for your opponent. However, a House Taranis Castellan with a 4++ and a stratagem to let him fire at full effect if wounded should require an awful lot of effort to bring down. I’d be pretty impressed if anyone could do that in a turn. Even a shadowsword should struggle if it rotates its ion shields. A scorpion, which is used to just one-shooting anything it fires at, should only do about 7 wounds, even if stationary and with guide.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 12:15:02


Post by: Cephalobeard


I want, desperately, to run Terryn.

Any of you folks also using Terryn?

Trying to find the best mix of things, but unfortunately our area moved to 1750 and it's making lists slightly interesting, build wise.


I'll add I'm also madly in love the Warglaives and intend to use at least 3, and would happily use more.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 12:29:57


Post by: Gryphonne


 Cephalobeard wrote:
I want, desperately, to run Terryn.

Any of you folks also using Terryn?

Trying to find the best mix of things, but unfortunately our area moved to 1750 and it's making lists slightly interesting, build wise.


I'll add I'm also madly in love the Warglaives and intend to use at least 3, and would happily use more.


Won't you miss either Hawkshroud's resillience or a mechancus house's machine spirit resurgent strat? I really want to run one of the cooler Imperialis houses but am afraid to have gimped knights halfway during the battle. Also, what makes the warglaives so good in your opinion? The Helverin just seems like a better deal; quite interested in your POV

Do you have a sample list of what you might be running?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 12:30:02


Post by: Mandragola


 Cephalobeard wrote:
I want, desperately, to run Terryn.

Any of you folks also using Terryn?

Trying to find the best mix of things, but unfortunately our area moved to 1750 and it's making lists slightly interesting, build wise.


I'll add I'm also madly in love the Warglaives and intend to use at least 3, and would happily use more.
Terryn seems decent - but then so do all the houses. It's not a bad pick. I've considered adding an auxiliary Terryn Gallant to my Taranis army, though on the whole I don't think I'll bother.

My guess is that you'd want a Gallant, someone with Landstrider and a CP battery so you can use the full tilt and fight twice strats. A crusader wtih RFBC would be a good pick for your warlord, maybe with Ion Bulwark and the relic battlecannon.

You don't have to go nuts like that though. A group of Armigers ranging ahead, perhaps backed up by a Preceptor, could be good. I think Armigers are pretty good value for their price.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 12:51:05


Post by: Cephalobeard


While I may miss Hawkshroud's resilience, raven's run and gun, or Taranis' refusal to yield, I believe in the raw aggression of Terryn.

My current list is, more or less:

Imperial Knight Lance, 1750 Army

SuperHeavy:

Knight Lancer –
Warlord (4++), Relic (2+ Armor)

Knight Gallant –
Warlord

3x Armiger Warglaives
Melta Gun, x3

Cadian Battalion:

2x Company Commander –

3x 9 Infantry, 1 Mortar –

AM Battalion:

1x Company Commander

1x Dkok Marshal

3x 9 Infantry, 1 Mortar


-------

I'm a huge fan, and can't wait to run it, but unfortunately it revolves around the FW FAQ allowing the Lancer, and not gimping any strats.

Mostly just curious what other folks might be doing with Terryn, themselves.



Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 12:57:05


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Mechanicus houses are the only ones that can currently be affected by Master of machines(other than Cawl's special version).

An Imperialis house is the only reason to take the forgeshrine.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 12:59:22


Post by: Cephalobeard


Gryphonne wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
I want, desperately, to run Terryn.

Any of you folks also using Terryn?

Trying to find the best mix of things, but unfortunately our area moved to 1750 and it's making lists slightly interesting, build wise.


I'll add I'm also madly in love the Warglaives and intend to use at least 3, and would happily use more.


Won't you miss either Hawkshroud's resillience or a mechancus house's machine spirit resurgent strat? I really want to run one of the cooler Imperialis houses but am afraid to have gimped knights halfway during the battle. Also, what makes the warglaives so good in your opinion? The Helverin just seems like a better deal; quite interested in your POV

Do you have a sample list of what you might be running?


List is above.

I like Warglaives, only as Terryn, due to Sally Forth.

If I full tilt a Knight into your deployment turn 1, I'm likely going to still have you there t2, perfect for some Warglaive Squires to take advantage of some gaps and show up in time to fire off 1d3+1 melta shots into vehicles, then rock a 3d6 dropping the lowest charge. They pack a decent little punch, especially if they can guarantee not being shot turn 1, and then an all but secure charge turn 2.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:25:37


Post by: Mandragola


I feel like Warglaives are decent regardless of house. They give you cheaper wounds, faster speeds, decent firepower and combat ability. I’d seriously consider adding some to my marines.

I’m not really sure they warrant full tilt, though perhaps they do. It’s certainly nice to have the option of tying up an enemy unit.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:27:20


Post by: obsidiankatana


Double check me folks, lemme see if I got this right;

-House Vulker Warden or Crusader
-Warlord trait; Blessed by the Sacristans (Avenger Gatling Cannon)
-Endless Fury Relic (replacing the Avenger)
-Saturation Bombardment Stratagem

Result; 14 shot gatling cannon, every 6 to hit is 4 hits, every 6 to wound is a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, re-rolling 1's to hit vs closest enemy. Every other weapon gets every 6 to hit is 2 hits.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:27:43


Post by: pique311


Quick question: can I have a single Armiger as an ally in a Super Heavy Aux and still gain access to Freeblade rules? If not, can I at least pay the strategem and give him the Character keyword and a warlord trait?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:32:22


Post by: Cephalobeard


Mandragola wrote:
I feel like Warglaives are decent regardless of house. They give you cheaper wounds, faster speeds, decent firepower and combat ability. I’d seriously consider adding some to my marines.

I’m not really sure they warrant full tilt, though perhaps they do. It’s certainly nice to have the option of tying up an enemy unit.


Just to clarify, I don't intend to full tilt an armiger ever. Lol

I'd be full tilting my Gallant or Lancer.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:39:15


Post by: Crimson


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Double check me folks, lemme see if I got this right;

-House Vulker Warden or Crusader
-Warlord trait; Blessed by the Sacristans (Avenger Gatling Cannon)
-Endless Fury Relic (replacing the Avenger)
-Saturation Bombardment Stratagem

Result; 14 shot gatling cannon, every 6 to hit is 4 hits, every 6 to wound is a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, re-rolling 1's to hit vs closest enemy. Every other weapon gets every 6 to hit is 2 hits.

You can't combine Blessed by the Sacristans with a relic weapon. Sorry. Also, I don't think the Stratagem stacks with the relic either, as both say 'two hits' instead of 'one hit more'.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:40:47


Post by: Kdash


 obsidiankatana wrote:
Double check me folks, lemme see if I got this right;

-House Vulker Warden or Crusader
-Warlord trait; Blessed by the Sacristans (Avenger Gatling Cannon)
-Endless Fury Relic (replacing the Avenger)
-Saturation Bombardment Stratagem

Result; 14 shot gatling cannon, every 6 to hit is 4 hits, every 6 to wound is a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, re-rolling 1's to hit vs closest enemy. Every other weapon gets every 6 to hit is 2 hits.


I don’t believe you can use the warlord trait on relic weapons, I’m afraid.

Will need double checking as I don’t have the codex to hand right now though – but I’m pretty sure that’s the case.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:43:27


Post by: obsidiankatana


 Crimson wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Double check me folks, lemme see if I got this right;

-House Vulker Warden or Crusader
-Warlord trait; Blessed by the Sacristans (Avenger Gatling Cannon)
-Endless Fury Relic (replacing the Avenger)
-Saturation Bombardment Stratagem

Result; 14 shot gatling cannon, every 6 to hit is 4 hits, every 6 to wound is a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, re-rolling 1's to hit vs closest enemy. Every other weapon gets every 6 to hit is 2 hits.

You can't combine Blessed by the Sacristans with a relic weapon. Sorry. Also, I don't think the Stratagem stacks with the relic either, as both say 'two hits' instead of 'one hit more'.


Shame on losing the warlord trait. The interaction between the stratagem and relic are what interest me more. I could definitely see the interpretation in which they don't stack, but I so very much want them to stack.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:43:52


Post by: Gunrunner1775


hope I am not doing this incorrectly

start with 13 CP
2x Space Marine Battalions

superheavy aux detachment
Knight gallant
-house terryn
-pay 1cp to make exaulted court - landstrider WL trait
-pay 1cp for relic-gauntlet
-pay 3cp to "sally forth" strat place knight in reserve to outflank

Summary: knight pops on 9" from enemy on a flank, charge, roll 3d6, pick highest 2, and add 2" to charge movement

Alternate option
Super heavy aux detachment
I used a crusader knight, kept it off board, to keep it safe from 1st turn las-cannon alpha strike, incase I did not get to go first, (which I did not, so his las-cannons killed a few primaris marines), moved on to myside of the board 1st turn, shot up his las-cannons , rest of game was mop up


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 13:57:26


Post by: tneva82


Inevitableq wrote:

Both questoris models have ironstorm missles equipped already. Do i really want more meltas? Both helverins have meltas already so the shrine would just be replaced by dead points and 2 more meltas on the questoris models.


Those meltas wouid be better than that terrain. Even dead points would be better as you wouldnt be tempted to load knight with it. Only reason to take one is extra terrain for reqular infantry which you lack. Knights have zero use for it


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 14:05:44


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Gunrunner- Aux detachments do not gain any traits or abilities. It does open strategies.

pique311- armigers can only become characters via the detachment rule (you have to have a full non-aux detachment). The strategy that allows you to make characters is for big knights only (no armigers allowed).


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 14:20:14


Post by: Danny slag


I see a lot of folks leaning mechanicus, but I find it hard to look at anything other than hawkshroud, that trait is just so overwhelmingly good. It's also not reliant on a single combo like many of the others, it's universally good for any type of list.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 14:22:50


Post by: Kdash


I find the hype around Hawkshroud’s trait to be pretty amusing. Guard and Eldar have had that trait for a while, but, it is very rarely seen – even in full baneblade lists.

It is good, it is useful, but we’ll just have to wait and see how it does competitively.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 14:23:29


Post by: Kommissar Kel


 obsidiankatana wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 obsidiankatana wrote:
Double check me folks, lemme see if I got this right;

-House Vulker Warden or Crusader
-Warlord trait; Blessed by the Sacristans (Avenger Gatling Cannon)
-Endless Fury Relic (replacing the Avenger)
-Saturation Bombardment Stratagem

Result; 14 shot gatling cannon, every 6 to hit is 4 hits, every 6 to wound is a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, re-rolling 1's to hit vs closest enemy. Every other weapon gets every 6 to hit is 2 hits.

You can't combine Blessed by the Sacristans with a relic weapon. Sorry. Also, I don't think the Stratagem stacks with the relic either, as both say 'two hits' instead of 'one hit more'.


Shame on losing the warlord trait. The interaction between the stratagem and relic are what interest me more. I could definitely see the interpretation in which they don't stack, but I so very much want them to stack.


They definitely do not stack("2 hits instead of 1" on both), but it is all weapons for the strat; so the thermal cannon/rfbc on a crusader and your stubber(s)/carapace weapons all gain some significant potential output.

Dropping endless fury for any other relic might be of use for your plans(I quite like mark of the Omnissiah on my Taranis warlord Crusader, FNP + IWND, then the taranis strat "Our darkest hour" with a Techpriest running around his feet means he has to be exploded to get rid of him) but for Vulker I would probably take the Skyshield, Sanctuary, or a relic melee weapon on a Warden.




Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 14:28:25


Post by: luke1705


Danny slag wrote:
I see a lot of folks leaning mechanicus, but I find it hard to look at anything other than hawkshroud, that trait is just so overwhelmingly good. It's also not reliant on a single combo like many of the others, it's universally good for any type of list.


Mechanicus is really only important for the Castellan, who desperately wants to be house Raven for the amazing stratagem.

Hawkshroud is nice, and in an ideal world, we'd have enough points for an actual detachment with 2-3 knights (and 1-0 armigers), plus the castellan in a separate detachment, plus some guard for the mandatory CP.

As is, I'm not sold on Hawkshroud because the points just don't add up. If you're not planning on running a castellan, Hawkshroud all the way. However, for me, I'm starting with a castellan and working from there, so the Hawkshroud benefit is pretty difficult to obtain unless I give up the relic plasma on the Castellan (or the ability to use the stratagem), but that's not something I want to do.

If I try and make a 3 source list, I keep coming back to either:

Raven Castellan
Freeblade Valiant
Raven Armiger

BA Battalion
Guard Battalion

OR

Raven Castellan
Freeblade Valiant
Raven Warden

Guard Battalion
Guard Battalion

OR

Raven Castellan (SH Aux)

Hawkshroud Valiant (SH Aux)

Guard Brigade

But I don't really like any of those lists THAT much. Want to try and fit the Hawkshroud benefit into my main detachment...just don't know if it's worth the trade offs


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 14:43:32


Post by: Crimson


Danny slag wrote:
I see a lot of folks leaning mechanicus, but I find it hard to look at anything other than hawkshroud, that trait is just so overwhelmingly good. It's also not reliant on a single combo like many of the others, it's universally good for any type of list.

It is an awesome trait and my first reaction was that it is the obvious choice. However, there is a mechanicus stratagem which allows you to use the top row, which makes the Hawkshroud ability less essential. And as noted, Castellan really needs that relic plasma or Krast relic.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 15:16:08


Post by: pique311


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Gunrunner- Aux detachments do not gain any traits or abilities. It does open strategies.

pique311- armigers can only become characters via the detachment rule (you have to have a full non-aux detachment). The strategy that allows you to make characters is for big knights only (no armigers allowed).

Oh that's a shame... Still, they're pretty good for the points (against my regular opponents). Thanks for the answear


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 15:32:08


Post by: Archebius


For all the battle reports I've seen that included Knights pre-codex, they were typically blown off the table before they could really earn their points back. As much as I'd like to get some Knight support for a planned Imperial Guard army, I was never convinced they provided enough firepower to be worth the cost.

Do you think that the new codex provides enough tools to make Knights an effective army? Are they better on their own, or as support for another army, or does it not really matter?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 15:44:29


Post by: luke1705


IMO you're still not going to see knights taking a GT. Mortal wounds are too strong and knights can't peel back the layers they need to in time to get to untargetable characters.

Missiles help, yes, but it's only 1 a turn, and far from guaranteed to actually kill a character, even if they only have 4 or 5 wounds.

That being said, I think they now have the tools to compete with other codex armies, as long as they don't run into their hard counters, such as 3 shadowswords or magnus and friends screened by 80 cultists (both armies I saw at the most recent GT I went to)

But if you're not planning on taking them to a GT with the intent of going 6-0 or 5-1, yeah I think they're great. I love the models and am going to convert mine to fall to chaos ASAP

I think a single splash knight next to a normal army or a predominantly knight army (2 big knights or 3-4 normals, or some combination of both) with a side battalion to generate CP (and screen them from mortal wounds) are the two most optimal ways to run them. Going 50/50 (like two questoris class knights and then 1200ish points of something else) doesn't feel to me like its likely to provide enough threat saturation to work well.

But with the amount of options that the imperium has for allies, who knows? Maybe I'm totally wrong.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 16:01:04


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


House Raven Pure Knight List

Spoiler:

House Raven Superheavy Detachment +3 CP

Knight Crusader
AGC w/ HF, TC, HS, Stormspear
[502]

Knight Warden
AGC w/ HF, Reaper, HS, Twin Icarus AC
Landstrider
[446]

Knight Warden
AGC w/ HF, Reaper, HS, Twin Icarus AC
[446]

Knight Castellan
2x SB Missiles, 2x Twin SB Cannons, 2x Twin Meltaguns, Volcano Lance
[604]

[1998]


I know most folks don't opt for Icarus, but with so many units with Fly, maybe it can help. With only 6CP and no recycling, this list is going to spend most of the time going for Rotate. I could blow 3CP for Exalted Court to pick up a 4++ on the Castellan and Cunning Commander just to get back 1CP (leaving me 4 CP total for shields).

I know it likely won't be very good, but it is four Knights on the table! Hard not to love how that would look.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 16:06:48


Post by: Mandragola


I don't think the hawkshroud trait is all that amazing in practice. It's only relevant on knights that are half dead. In that situation a mechanicus knight has a 1cp stratagem to use its best stat line.

It's true that in theory your opponent could damage multiple knights but keep them alive... in which case he's an idiot and you should win easily anyway.

If you want a Castellan in an imperial force then an admech one is certainly better. Remember that you can take an admech freeblade as one of your 3 knights. You obviously couldn't use the Raven stratagem on him but he'd get freeblade qualities and could take Cawl's Wrath. Alternatively, if you've got 3 other proper knights, you could take a Raven auxiliary.

A 4-knight list at 1750 could be a gallant with meltagun and 2 errants (of any house you like - maybe Terryn) as your lance, plus a raven Castellan auxiliary. It's not subtle but it could be fun!


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 16:25:40


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Super-heavy Auxiliary detachments do not get Traditions.

If you want the Raven strat but not the tradition you are fine. If you want Raven Tradition but not the strat you can take a mechanicus freeblade in the main detachment and use the Raven Tradition.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 16:34:32


Post by: jcd386


Archebius wrote:
For all the battle reports I've seen that included Knights pre-codex, they were typically blown off the table before they could really earn their points back. As much as I'd like to get some Knight support for a planned Imperial Guard army, I was never convinced they provided enough firepower to be worth the cost.

Do you think that the new codex provides enough tools to make Knights an effective army? Are they better on their own, or as support for another army, or does it not really matter?


They've handedly won all the battle reports I've seen with the new codex.

It seems pretty clear to me that they are a gatekeeper army, and are likely to do very well in random pick up games against semi optimal lists.

Not to take anything anyway from IK players, but it's not exactly easy to make a bad IK army the way it might be too make a bad Tau or marine list. 3 or more knights of any variant and loadout are going to be tough to crack no matter what the other player has, and because of how obvious the different power combos are, the only real room for error is in what allies you take, and of course how you play.

I don't have a problem with this really, though I do wonder if there will be much of an outcry of knights being OP once the more casual population starts to realize that a lot of their lists auto lose to 3+ knights.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 17:53:53


Post by: Klone12


House Taranis is reaaly nice. Basically making your questoris 28 HP.
18 free HP on 3 Thermal+Icarus Crusader, a Helverin and a Gallant at 2k looks good.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 18:03:34


Post by: grouchoben


I witnessed the 4+ explode stratagem this week. I couldn't help feeling it was a bit over the top. The knight did over 30 mortal wounds. 2d6 radius, 1d6 mortal wounds on a big base model is brutal.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 18:12:04


Post by: jcd386


 grouchoben wrote:
I witnessed the 4+ explode stratagem this week. I couldn't help feeling it was a bit over the top. The knight did over 30 mortal wounds. 2d6 radius, 1d6 mortal wounds on a big base model is brutal.


It is interesting how there isn't really a great way to fight knights with most armies. They are very resistant to shooting because of their invul saves, but getting close to them is also usually not a great idea either.

It seems like the best idea is to run away while focusing down the ones with 5++ saves, but this leaves the 4++ one to do what it wants. If they pop rotate ion shields, the best thing to do is switch targets, but then it's likely to take you 2+ turns to down one knight, which doesn't seem promising either.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 19:44:58


Post by: grouchoben


Agreed, they are a tricky prospect. I think nullzone/death hex is absolutely gold against knights. I've just put together 3 DW librarians (I know, absurd!) to access empyric chanelling, to make that nullzone leap out of a corvus that much more likely. Love the idea of a chorus of librarians leaping down to nail a knight with psychic fire. We'll see how it shakes down in practice, though...


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 20:12:58


Post by: Arlen


I really like the Krast household in my pure Knight list, because their relic and warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit) are great for my ranged Knights, while the tradition is great for a Gallant running up the field.
I was however wondering if a Mechanicus Valiant with the Krast relic is better then the Traitors pyre or at least a good alternative on the Questor Imperialis variant.
Sure Traitors Pyre is a fantastic weapon, but this relic also boosts all of the Valiants other weapons that seem to be mainly designed around hunting 10+ wound models.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 20:20:28


Post by: greyknight12


It’s a one-off risk, but inquisitor with Doninate could really wreck a knight’s day if it gets within 18” of the souped-up character dominus-classes everyone is running.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 20:34:53


Post by: Ice_can


 greyknight12 wrote:
It’s a one-off risk, but inquisitor with Doninate could really wreck a knight’s day if it gets within 18” of the souped-up character dominus-classes everyone is running.

The No Keyword Imperium detachment pretty much made that soup ingredient unplayable for most. If you do meet it it would probably be in a fluffy army so you can play around it competitively speaking.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 20:48:29


Post by: Danny slag


 luke1705 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
I see a lot of folks leaning mechanicus, but I find it hard to look at anything other than hawkshroud, that trait is just so overwhelmingly good. It's also not reliant on a single combo like many of the others, it's universally good for any type of list.


Mechanicus is really only important for the Castellan, who desperately wants to be house Raven for the amazing stratagem.

Hawkshroud is nice, and in an ideal world, we'd have enough points for an actual detachment with 2-3 knights (and 1-0 armigers), plus the castellan in a separate detachment, plus some guard for the mandatory CP.

As is, I'm not sold on Hawkshroud because the points just don't add up. If you're not planning on running a castellan, Hawkshroud all the way. However, for me, I'm starting with a castellan and working from there, so the Hawkshroud benefit is pretty difficult to obtain unless I give up the relic plasma on the Castellan (or the ability to use the stratagem), but that's not something I want to do.

If I try and make a 3 source list, I keep coming back to either:

Raven Castellan
Freeblade Valiant
Raven Armiger

BA Battalion
Guard Battalion

OR

Raven Castellan
Freeblade Valiant
Raven Warden

Guard Battalion
Guard Battalion

OR

Raven Castellan (SH Aux)

Hawkshroud Valiant (SH Aux)

Guard Brigade

But I don't really like any of those lists THAT much. Want to try and fit the Hawkshroud benefit into my main detachment...just don't know if it's worth the trade offs



Ah that makes sense. I wasn't even worrying about the new knights, theyre so expensive I'd rather have more of the small and mid sized knights instead, and if I took a dominus it would be more so because I had the points to upgrade something to it, not the focal point of my list. Your design philosophy does make sense with raven from that angle.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/12 23:47:56


Post by: jcd386


Ice_can wrote:
 greyknight12 wrote:
It’s a one-off risk, but inquisitor with Doninate could really wreck a knight’s day if it gets within 18” of the souped-up character dominus-classes everyone is running.

The No Keyword Imperium detachment pretty much made that soup ingredient unplayable for most. If you do meet it it would probably be in a fluffy army so you can play around it competitively speaking.


I wonder if three of them for 150 points in a supreme command detachment would be worth playing with at all vs knights. Both Dominate and Terrify are actually pretty good against knights, and smite never hurts either...


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 00:57:36


Post by: greyknight12


jcd386 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 greyknight12 wrote:
It’s a one-off risk, but inquisitor with Doninate could really wreck a knight’s day if it gets within 18” of the souped-up character dominus-classes everyone is running.

The No Keyword Imperium detachment pretty much made that soup ingredient unplayable for most. If you do meet it it would probably be in a fluffy army so you can play around it competitively speaking.


I wonder if three of them for 150 points in a supreme command detachment would be worth playing with at all vs knights. Both Dominate and Terrify are actually pretty good against knights, and smite never hurts either...

Or a couple in a Vanguard with some solo henchmen.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 01:26:24


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


I do apologise fir this as I dont have the dex (and wont as moneys tight right now so using battlescribe and want to make sure its not leading me astray)

Im running a Freeblade Errant in a SHAux with Sisters Battalion.
I know that SHAux doesnt allow House bonuses (hence freeblade). Does SHAux allow freeblade bonuses? (Maybe silly question but asking anyway)

Am i correct in that in a SHAux i can spent 2 CP to give my knight Heirlooms (1cp) and Exalted court (1cp) ?

Finally, these strats hive the knight "Character". Does that really mean its treated as a character- ie, cannot be targeted by shooting unless it is closest model?

Essentialy can I run my knight:
In a SHAux
As a Freblade with: Peerless Warrior quality. Obsessed with Vengeance and Driven to Slaughter burdens.
Exalted Court: Fearsome Reputation
Heirlooms: Judgement
Character

Im sorry if this is real obvious to you guys, its just seems too gosh darn good to be true.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 02:38:21


Post by: jcd386


 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I do apologise fir this as I dont have the dex (and wont as moneys tight right now so using battlescribe and want to make sure its not leading me astray)

Im running a Freeblade Errant in a SHAux with Sisters Battalion.
I know that SHAux doesnt allow House bonuses (hence freeblade). Does SHAux allow freeblade bonuses? (Maybe silly question but asking anyway)

Am i correct in that in a SHAux i can spent 2 CP to give my knight Heirlooms (1cp) and Exalted court (1cp) ?

Finally, these strats hive the knight "Character". Does that really mean its treated as a character- ie, cannot be targeted by shooting unless it is closest model?

Essentialy can I run my knight:
In a SHAux
As a Freblade with: Peerless Warrior quality. Obsessed with Vengeance and Driven to Slaughter burdens.
Exalted Court: Fearsome Reputation
Heirlooms: Judgement
Character

Im sorry if this is real obvious to you guys, its just seems too gosh darn good to be true.


The only requirement for the freeblade abilities is that your army be Battleforged, and you can only have one in each detachment.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 02:51:29


Post by: Eldarain


Have any of the notable batrep creators done one with a Castellan? Seems like GW only shipped out Valiants early.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 03:15:09


Post by: luke1705


It’s really all about getting the thing painted. I’ve seen one in action and it was a sight to behold, even though the guy using it misplayed it pretty hard.

Still assembling mine, but in time, I’ll have some bat reps too


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 03:23:19


Post by: Kommissar Kel


 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I do apologise fir this as I dont have the dex (and wont as moneys tight right now so using battlescribe and want to make sure its not leading me astray)

Im running a Freeblade Errant in a SHAux with Sisters Battalion.
I know that SHAux doesnt allow House bonuses (hence freeblade). Does SHAux allow freeblade bonuses? (Maybe silly question but asking anyway)

Am i correct in that in a SHAux i can spent 2 CP to give my knight Heirlooms (1cp) and Exalted court (1cp) ?

Finally, these strats hive the knight "Character". Does that really mean its treated as a character- ie, cannot be targeted by shooting unless it is closest model?

Essentialy can I run my knight:
In a SHAux
As a Freblade with: Peerless Warrior quality. Obsessed with Vengeance and Driven to Slaughter burdens.
Exalted Court: Fearsome Reputation
Heirlooms: Judgement
Character

Im sorry if this is real obvious to you guys, its just seems too gosh darn good to be true.


You only need 1 CP spent(heirlooms) it provides Character, unless you also wanted the warlord trait from exalted court. Of course you could always just use Heirlooms and then make the freeblade your warlord.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 03:43:32


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Arlen wrote:
I really like the Krast household in my pure Knight list, because their relic and warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit) are great for my ranged Knights, while the tradition is great for a Gallant running up the field.
I was however wondering if a Mechanicus Valiant with the Krast relic is better then the Traitors pyre or at least a good alternative on the Questor Imperialis variant.
Sure Traitors Pyre is a fantastic weapon, but this relic also boosts all of the Valiants other weapons that seem to be mainly designed around hunting 10+ wound models.


I feel that house Raven is the best for running Valiants. Then your Valiants can advance and still shoot with no penalty. Get landstrider on a nearby knight (it doesn't even have to be on the Valiant itself). Now, you can move advance 12 + d6 and then fire your weapons. Unless the opponent positions literally at the table edge, there is a high chance that such a big advance move will bring you within shooting range of at least his screening units. I mean, the Confrag cannon has a range of 18 inches. so, with house raven and landstrider, your Valiants have a threat range of 12+18+d6... that's 30+d6. lol Even for your melta guns and that harpoon, your threat range is 24+d6.

For titan killing though (if you feel that the biggest threats to an IK list are other knights), then I agree that house Krast is amazing. Not just because they make melee knights great, but that relic of theirs Headman's Mark. It adds 2 damage to all weapons against titanic. The kind of damage it adds to a Dominus class (be it Castellan or Valiant) is absolutely sick. I mean, crawl's wrath is good because it makes plasma decimaters damage 3 on overcharge. But headman's mark makes your plasma decimaters damage 4 against titantic units!!! Plus it doesn't just improve your plasma decimater, it improves all of your other guns by 2 damage against titanic units. I think a shadowsword would be in serious trouble if a Castellan with headman's mark unloaded everything at it.




Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 07:34:21


Post by: Godeskian


 luke1705 wrote:
IMO you're still not going to see knights taking a GT. Mortal wounds are too strong and knights can't peel back the layers they need to in time to get to untargetable characters.

....

But if you're not planning on taking them to a GT with the intent of going 6-0 or 5-1, yeah I think they're great. I love the models and am going to convert mine to fall to chaos ASAP

...

But with the amount of options that the imperium has for allies, who knows? Maybe I'm totally wrong.


I shall let you know as I'm taking pure knights to GT in about three weeks. Currently planning to bring a Valiant, a Warden and two Gallants as house Raven or Terryn.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 07:55:10


Post by: Xorce


Why pure knights when you can just take a battalion of guards for 200 points?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 08:07:24


Post by: Godeskian


Xorce wrote:
Why pure knights when you can just take a battalion of guards for 200 points?


One: I don't own any
Two : I don't think what they add is as important as what they cost you in terms of first blood, slay the warlord and kill points.
Three : I don't want to.

Fundamentally I don't like the imperial guard. They fit neither my preferences nor my preferred playstyle, and they offer nothing to add to what the knights do well. If anything I'd be inclined to take Guilleman, who is at least as tough as a Knight, gives you extra cp, rerolls of one's and cp cycling.

What's more, if knights are really incapable of doing well without an entire other codex, then I might as well find out for myself


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll take any suggestions people have for getting the most out of my pure knights list though. I'd like to do as well as I can after all


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 08:35:46


Post by: Crazyterran


Four Knights and Guilliman might be an interesting list. Gives you 9cp, dont have to take Guard, and gives you an extra inch of run turn one.

Edit: personally, I dont see the point of Dominus in pure Knights list - it stops you from running five Knights and the weapons arent that amazing.

A pair of gallants, a pair of wardens, and a thermal Crusader is good, or a pair of gallants, an errant, a warden, and a BC Crusader might be good as well. I prefer the BC, but it means you trade a BC for a AGC essentially...


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 08:40:39


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 Crazyterran wrote:
Four Knights and Guilliman might be an interesting list. Gives you 9cp, dont have to take Guard, and gives you an extra inch of run turn one.
Guilliman would have to be in a SHAux, but it can be done. Kinda makes Exalted Court mandatory, but his Warlord Trait helps with the CP issue.

It might be fun to run though.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 08:43:44


Post by: Crazyterran


Yeah, you would need to throw Landstrider on one, you might be able to get away with not having a relic, might not.

I did get a good lesson on how necessary Sanctuary is when I played bikestodes the other day. My poor Castigator.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 08:49:53


Post by: Kdash


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Arlen wrote:
I really like the Krast household in my pure Knight list, because their relic and warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit) are great for my ranged Knights, while the tradition is great for a Gallant running up the field.
I was however wondering if a Mechanicus Valiant with the Krast relic is better then the Traitors pyre or at least a good alternative on the Questor Imperialis variant.
Sure Traitors Pyre is a fantastic weapon, but this relic also boosts all of the Valiants other weapons that seem to be mainly designed around hunting 10+ wound models.


I feel that house Raven is the best for running Valiants. Then your Valiants can advance and still shoot with no penalty. Get landstrider on a nearby knight (it doesn't even have to be on the Valiant itself). Now, you can move advance 12 + d6 and then fire your weapons. Unless the opponent positions literally at the table edge, there is a high chance that such a big advance move will bring you within shooting range of at least his screening units. I mean, the Confrag cannon has a range of 18 inches. so, with house raven and landstrider, your Valiants have a threat range of 12+18+d6... that's 30+d6. lol Even for your melta guns and that harpoon, your threat range is 24+d6.

For titan killing though (if you feel that the biggest threats to an IK list are other knights), then I agree that house Krast is amazing. Not just because they make melee knights great, but that relic of theirs Headman's Mark. It adds 2 damage to all weapons against titanic. The kind of damage it adds to a Dominus class (be it Castellan or Valiant) is absolutely sick. I mean, crawl's wrath is good because it makes plasma decimaters damage 3 on overcharge. But headman's mark makes your plasma decimaters damage 4 against titantic units!!! Plus it doesn't just improve your plasma decimater, it improves all of your other guns by 2 damage against titanic units. I think a shadowsword would be in serious trouble if a Castellan with headman's mark unloaded everything at it.




Don't forget, that Dominus class Knights only move 10" base (though your figures are right if you take Landstrider into account).

As for the Krast relic on a Castellan – I’d still go with the plasma relic.
On average vs a Baneblade a Castellan will do the following (these figures include Plasma, Melta and 2 twin Seigecannons) –

Basic, no buffs – 18.111 wounds
Basic, Krast WL trait – 21.13 wounds
Plasma Relic – 25.32 wounds
Plasma Relic WL – 27.482 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma – 22 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma WL – 25.667 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta – 22.111 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta WL – 25.13 wounds

So, as you can see, taking Cawls Wrath and the Krast WL trait to re-roll 1’s will allow you to, on average, put out more damage on a Baneblade, than using the Krast Relic on either standard weapon arm. You also then have the bonus of the extra str, ap and dmg vs everything that is under 10 wounds from the Relic boost, rather than focusing soley on 10+ wound models.



Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 08:51:17


Post by: Godeskian


 Crazyterran wrote:
Four Knights and Guilliman might be an interesting list. Gives you 9cp, dont have to take Guard, and gives you an extra inch of run turn one.

Edit: personally, I dont see the point of Dominus in pure Knights list - it stops you from running five Knights and the weapons arent that amazing.

A pair of gallants, a pair of wardens, and a thermal Crusader is good, or a pair of gallants, an errant, a warden, and a BC Crusader might be good as well. I prefer the BC, but it means you trade a BC for a AGC essentially...


At 1750,,and Guilleman being 400 points you almost have to ho with three knights and him in 1750, at least I haven't been able to fit a fourth one in at those points.

Guilleman I think offers a good cp alternative and he's tough as nails in cc, with a native 3++ save. I'm considering running him instead of the fourth gallant


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 09:02:44


Post by: Arlen


Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Arlen wrote:
I really like the Krast household in my pure Knight list, because their relic and warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit) are great for my ranged Knights, while the tradition is great for a Gallant running up the field.
I was however wondering if a Mechanicus Valiant with the Krast relic is better then the Traitors pyre or at least a good alternative on the Questor Imperialis variant.
Sure Traitors Pyre is a fantastic weapon, but this relic also boosts all of the Valiants other weapons that seem to be mainly designed around hunting 10+ wound models.


I feel that house Raven is the best for running Valiants. Then your Valiants can advance and still shoot with no penalty. Get landstrider on a nearby knight (it doesn't even have to be on the Valiant itself). Now, you can move advance 12 + d6 and then fire your weapons. Unless the opponent positions literally at the table edge, there is a high chance that such a big advance move will bring you within shooting range of at least his screening units. I mean, the Confrag cannon has a range of 18 inches. so, with house raven and landstrider, your Valiants have a threat range of 12+18+d6... that's 30+d6. lol Even for your melta guns and that harpoon, your threat range is 24+d6.

For titan killing though (if you feel that the biggest threats to an IK list are other knights), then I agree that house Krast is amazing. Not just because they make melee knights great, but that relic of theirs Headman's Mark. It adds 2 damage to all weapons against titanic. The kind of damage it adds to a Dominus class (be it Castellan or Valiant) is absolutely sick. I mean, crawl's wrath is good because it makes plasma decimaters damage 3 on overcharge. But headman's mark makes your plasma decimaters damage 4 against titantic units!!! Plus it doesn't just improve your plasma decimater, it improves all of your other guns by 2 damage against titanic units. I think a shadowsword would be in serious trouble if a Castellan with headman's mark unloaded everything at it.




Yeah, Raven also seems to be like a great pick for Valiants.

I got these 4 knights for my ~2000pt pure Knight list at the moment, which I still need to fine tune quite a bit.

- Gallant
- 2x Crusader
- Valiant

My base idea was to always give the Valiant the 4++ warlord trait. After that I'm still pondering on what else to take.
My first thought was going Hawkshroud to get the "Traitors Pyre" relic on the valiant and maybe make the Gallant a Freeblade.

Right now I am thinking of going Krast as it gives the Gallant (and everyone else) rerolls in CC while making one of the Crusaders a character and giving it the First Knight (reroll 1s) warlord trait from Krast and the ''Endless Fury'' relic.
While giving the Valiant the Headsman's Mark relic that Krast gives you access to.

Raven also makes for great Household as I would then give the Gallant the additional Warlord trait, Landstrider. Which will allow me to move the Valiant and Gallant forward at a much greater pace. But then I might just also give the Gallant the Paragon Gauntlet to further enhance its close combat prowess.

So many options to choose from and they all seem grand to me.
What do you guys think?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 09:11:10


Post by: Ice_can


 Kommissar Kel wrote:

You only need 1 CP spent(heirlooms) it provides Character, unless you also wanted the warlord trait from exalted court. Of course you could always just use Heirlooms and then make the freeblade your warlord.


I wouldn't be surprised to see that changed in the FAQ as the exalted court specifically mentions that stratageum is after you choose your warlord presumably to stop you making a Solo knight your warlord.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 09:19:09


Post by: Crazyterran


Godeskian wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Four Knights and Guilliman might be an interesting list. Gives you 9cp, dont have to take Guard, and gives you an extra inch of run turn one.

Edit: personally, I dont see the point of Dominus in pure Knights list - it stops you from running five Knights and the weapons arent that amazing.

A pair of gallants, a pair of wardens, and a thermal Crusader is good, or a pair of gallants, an errant, a warden, and a BC Crusader might be good as well. I prefer the BC, but it means you trade a BC for a AGC essentially...


At 1750,,and Guilleman being 400 points you almost have to ho with three knights and him in 1750, at least I haven't been able to fit a fourth one in at those points.

Guilleman I think offers a good cp alternative and he's tough as nails in cc, with a native 3++ save. I'm considering running him instead of the fourth gallant


Other than GW whos playing 1750??


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 09:26:10


Post by: Kdash


RG gives you 9 CP if you run him as the Warlord, but, in a list like that you’re prob going to then be spending at least 4-6 CP for relics and making 1, or 2 additional Knights characters. (you could just spend 1 CP on 1 relic, but, I personally feel that the WL traits and relics are going to be what makes or breaks Knights in most cases)

So, when it comes down to it, you’ll still only be starting with 3-5 CP. Considering that you prob want to save 1 CP to help in case RG gets killed, then, you have to question whether or not RG is going to give you enough to justify the 400 points.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 09:55:29


Post by: Mandragola


Kdash wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Arlen wrote:
I really like the Krast household in my pure Knight list, because their relic and warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit) are great for my ranged Knights, while the tradition is great for a Gallant running up the field.
I was however wondering if a Mechanicus Valiant with the Krast relic is better then the Traitors pyre or at least a good alternative on the Questor Imperialis variant.
Sure Traitors Pyre is a fantastic weapon, but this relic also boosts all of the Valiants other weapons that seem to be mainly designed around hunting 10+ wound models.


I feel that house Raven is the best for running Valiants. Then your Valiants can advance and still shoot with no penalty. Get landstrider on a nearby knight (it doesn't even have to be on the Valiant itself). Now, you can move advance 12 + d6 and then fire your weapons. Unless the opponent positions literally at the table edge, there is a high chance that such a big advance move will bring you within shooting range of at least his screening units. I mean, the Confrag cannon has a range of 18 inches. so, with house raven and landstrider, your Valiants have a threat range of 12+18+d6... that's 30+d6. lol Even for your melta guns and that harpoon, your threat range is 24+d6.

For titan killing though (if you feel that the biggest threats to an IK list are other knights), then I agree that house Krast is amazing. Not just because they make melee knights great, but that relic of theirs Headman's Mark. It adds 2 damage to all weapons against titanic. The kind of damage it adds to a Dominus class (be it Castellan or Valiant) is absolutely sick. I mean, crawl's wrath is good because it makes plasma decimaters damage 3 on overcharge. But headman's mark makes your plasma decimaters damage 4 against titantic units!!! Plus it doesn't just improve your plasma decimater, it improves all of your other guns by 2 damage against titanic units. I think a shadowsword would be in serious trouble if a Castellan with headman's mark unloaded everything at it.




Don't forget, that Dominus class Knights only move 10" base (though your figures are right if you take Landstrider into account).

As for the Krast relic on a Castellan – I’d still go with the plasma relic.
On average vs a Baneblade a Castellan will do the following (these figures include Plasma, Melta and 2 twin Seigecannons) –

Basic, no buffs – 18.111 wounds
Basic, Krast WL trait – 21.13 wounds
Plasma Relic – 25.32 wounds
Plasma Relic WL – 27.482 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma – 22 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma WL – 25.667 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta – 22.111 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta WL – 25.13 wounds

So, as you can see, taking Cawls Wrath and the Krast WL trait to re-roll 1’s will allow you to, on average, put out more damage on a Baneblade, than using the Krast Relic on either standard weapon arm. You also then have the bonus of the extra str, ap and dmg vs everything that is under 10 wounds from the Relic boost, rather than focusing soley on 10+ wound models.


From this analysis it looks like you think the Krast relic only applies to a single weapon. It doesn't - it applies to "the bearer's weapons" - so everything. Even its kicks do more damage. They'll also reroll to hit, which is nice when you only hit on a 4+.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 10:04:58


Post by: Godeskian


 Crazyterran wrote:
Godeskian wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Four Knights and Guilliman might be an interesting list. Gives you 9cp, dont have to take Guard, and gives you an extra inch of run turn one.

Edit: personally, I dont see the point of Dominus in pure Knights list - it stops you from running five Knights and the weapons arent that amazing.

A pair of gallants, a pair of wardens, and a thermal Crusader is good, or a pair of gallants, an errant, a warden, and a BC Crusader might be good as well. I prefer the BC, but it means you trade a BC for a AGC essentially...


At 1750,,and Guilleman being 400 points you almost have to ho with three knights and him in 1750, at least I haven't been able to fit a fourth one in at those points.

Guilleman I think offers a good cp alternative and he's tough as nails in cc, with a native 3++ save. I'm considering running him instead of the fourth gallant


Other than GW whos playing 1750??


But I've specifically said I'm going to GT, the GW one, so at the moment it's irrelevant to me what anyone else is playing. I need to build my list at 1750


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote:
RG gives you 9 CP if you run him as the Warlord, but, in a list like that you’re prob going to then be spending at least 4-6 CP for relics and making 1, or 2 additional Knights characters. (you could just spend 1 CP on 1 relic, but, I personally feel that the WL traits and relics are going to be what makes or breaks Knights in most cases)

So, when it comes down to it, you’ll still only be starting with 3-5 CP. Considering that you prob want to save 1 CP to help in case RG gets killed, then, you have to question whether or not RG is going to give you enough to justify the 400 points.


Fair point actually. Of course big Bobby also gives you cp cycling, and incredibly tough to kill warlord that can't be targeted and a pretty decent cc monster.

Swings and roundabouts I guess


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way I'm going to end up with two knights with relics and warlord traits. At the moment I'm thinking traitors pyre and paragon gauntlet and landstrider and ion bulwark.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 10:18:21


Post by: Kdash


Mandragola wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Arlen wrote:
I really like the Krast household in my pure Knight list, because their relic and warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit) are great for my ranged Knights, while the tradition is great for a Gallant running up the field.
I was however wondering if a Mechanicus Valiant with the Krast relic is better then the Traitors pyre or at least a good alternative on the Questor Imperialis variant.
Sure Traitors Pyre is a fantastic weapon, but this relic also boosts all of the Valiants other weapons that seem to be mainly designed around hunting 10+ wound models.


I feel that house Raven is the best for running Valiants. Then your Valiants can advance and still shoot with no penalty. Get landstrider on a nearby knight (it doesn't even have to be on the Valiant itself). Now, you can move advance 12 + d6 and then fire your weapons. Unless the opponent positions literally at the table edge, there is a high chance that such a big advance move will bring you within shooting range of at least his screening units. I mean, the Confrag cannon has a range of 18 inches. so, with house raven and landstrider, your Valiants have a threat range of 12+18+d6... that's 30+d6. lol Even for your melta guns and that harpoon, your threat range is 24+d6.

For titan killing though (if you feel that the biggest threats to an IK list are other knights), then I agree that house Krast is amazing. Not just because they make melee knights great, but that relic of theirs Headman's Mark. It adds 2 damage to all weapons against titanic. The kind of damage it adds to a Dominus class (be it Castellan or Valiant) is absolutely sick. I mean, crawl's wrath is good because it makes plasma decimaters damage 3 on overcharge. But headman's mark makes your plasma decimaters damage 4 against titantic units!!! Plus it doesn't just improve your plasma decimater, it improves all of your other guns by 2 damage against titanic units. I think a shadowsword would be in serious trouble if a Castellan with headman's mark unloaded everything at it.




Don't forget, that Dominus class Knights only move 10" base (though your figures are right if you take Landstrider into account).

As for the Krast relic on a Castellan – I’d still go with the plasma relic.
On average vs a Baneblade a Castellan will do the following (these figures include Plasma, Melta and 2 twin Seigecannons) –

Basic, no buffs – 18.111 wounds
Basic, Krast WL trait – 21.13 wounds
Plasma Relic – 25.32 wounds
Plasma Relic WL – 27.482 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma – 22 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma WL – 25.667 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta – 22.111 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta WL – 25.13 wounds

So, as you can see, taking Cawls Wrath and the Krast WL trait to re-roll 1’s will allow you to, on average, put out more damage on a Baneblade, than using the Krast Relic on either standard weapon arm. You also then have the bonus of the extra str, ap and dmg vs everything that is under 10 wounds from the Relic boost, rather than focusing soley on 10+ wound models.


From this analysis it looks like you think the Krast relic only applies to a single weapon. It doesn't - it applies to "the bearer's weapons" - so everything. Even its kicks do more damage. They'll also reroll to hit, which is nice when you only hit on a 4+.


Oops.

In that case, you can add 4 dmg to Krast Relic Melta, then an additional 2 for the one with WL, due to the plasma generally scoring 2-3 wounds. You can add an additional 2 dmg for the Seigebreaker total as well.

All in all, it doesn’t make that much of a difference though… As if the standard relic plasma can already 1 shot a baneblade “on average”, the extra 6 damage from the WL trait and Krast relic is just wasted. 33 average dmg is nice, but, completely unnecessary.

Adding the dmg to the feet, is, alright, I guess… But, if you haven’t shot the Baneblade off the table before you somehow get into combat with it, then, something else has gone wrong (as you’re looking at 2 turns of shooting…) As for kicking a Rhino or another transport, then, the extra +1 dmg per kick isn’t going to be needed. Likewise with fighting Magnus or Mortarian – the +1 dmg is handy for shooting, but, should never really come up for combat when you’re referring to a Castellan.

I’d be prepared to say, that 99% of the models on the table at an 80-man event are not Titanic, and then at like 90/95% won’t have 10+ wounds.

If you’re taking a Knight for kicking, you might as well just run Cadmus and just get a flat re-roll to wound vs everything with 12 or less wounds in the fight phase.

As for the argument that Krast will help vs Knights, then, when taking the standard 5++ into account, neither setup is going to 1 shot a Knight. The Krast Castellan will do 22 wounds on average, and the relic plasma will do 16.8 on average (without Krast WL trait) and 18 with the trait. So, it then comes down to the fact that the Krast Knight will drop a Knight into its lowest bracket, whereas a standard one won’t.

I’d still argue that the standard relic plasma will then be overall more useful from game to game.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 10:41:19


Post by: Arlen


Kdash wrote:
Spoiler:
Mandragola wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Arlen wrote:
I really like the Krast household in my pure Knight list, because their relic and warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit) are great for my ranged Knights, while the tradition is great for a Gallant running up the field.
I was however wondering if a Mechanicus Valiant with the Krast relic is better then the Traitors pyre or at least a good alternative on the Questor Imperialis variant.
Sure Traitors Pyre is a fantastic weapon, but this relic also boosts all of the Valiants other weapons that seem to be mainly designed around hunting 10+ wound models.


I feel that house Raven is the best for running Valiants. Then your Valiants can advance and still shoot with no penalty. Get landstrider on a nearby knight (it doesn't even have to be on the Valiant itself). Now, you can move advance 12 + d6 and then fire your weapons. Unless the opponent positions literally at the table edge, there is a high chance that such a big advance move will bring you within shooting range of at least his screening units. I mean, the Confrag cannon has a range of 18 inches. so, with house raven and landstrider, your Valiants have a threat range of 12+18+d6... that's 30+d6. lol Even for your melta guns and that harpoon, your threat range is 24+d6.

For titan killing though (if you feel that the biggest threats to an IK list are other knights), then I agree that house Krast is amazing. Not just because they make melee knights great, but that relic of theirs Headman's Mark. It adds 2 damage to all weapons against titanic. The kind of damage it adds to a Dominus class (be it Castellan or Valiant) is absolutely sick. I mean, crawl's wrath is good because it makes plasma decimaters damage 3 on overcharge. But headman's mark makes your plasma decimaters damage 4 against titantic units!!! Plus it doesn't just improve your plasma decimater, it improves all of your other guns by 2 damage against titanic units. I think a shadowsword would be in serious trouble if a Castellan with headman's mark unloaded everything at it.




Don't forget, that Dominus class Knights only move 10" base (though your figures are right if you take Landstrider into account).

As for the Krast relic on a Castellan – I’d still go with the plasma relic.
On average vs a Baneblade a Castellan will do the following (these figures include Plasma, Melta and 2 twin Seigecannons) –

Basic, no buffs – 18.111 wounds
Basic, Krast WL trait – 21.13 wounds
Plasma Relic – 25.32 wounds
Plasma Relic WL – 27.482 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma – 22 wounds
Krast Relic on Plasma WL – 25.667 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta – 22.111 wounds
Krast Relic on Melta WL – 25.13 wounds

So, as you can see, taking Cawls Wrath and the Krast WL trait to re-roll 1’s will allow you to, on average, put out more damage on a Baneblade, than using the Krast Relic on either standard weapon arm. You also then have the bonus of the extra str, ap and dmg vs everything that is under 10 wounds from the Relic boost, rather than focusing soley on 10+ wound models.


From this analysis it looks like you think the Krast relic only applies to a single weapon. It doesn't - it applies to "the bearer's weapons" - so everything. Even its kicks do more damage. They'll also reroll to hit, which is nice when you only hit on a 4+.


Oops.

In that case, you can add 4 dmg to Krast Relic Melta, then an additional 2 for the one with WL, due to the plasma generally scoring 2-3 wounds. You can add an additional 2 dmg for the Seigebreaker total as well.

All in all, it doesn’t make that much of a difference though… As if the standard relic plasma can already 1 shot a baneblade “on average”, the extra 6 damage from the WL trait and Krast relic is just wasted. 33 average dmg is nice, but, completely unnecessary.

Adding the dmg to the feet, is, alright, I guess… But, if you haven’t shot the Baneblade off the table before you somehow get into combat with it, then, something else has gone wrong (as you’re looking at 2 turns of shooting…) As for kicking a Rhino or another transport, then, the extra +1 dmg per kick isn’t going to be needed. Likewise with fighting Magnus or Mortarian – the +1 dmg is handy for shooting, but, should never really come up for combat when you’re referring to a Castellan.

I’d be prepared to say, that 99% of the models on the table at an 80-man event are not Titanic, and then at like 90/95% won’t have 10+ wounds.

If you’re taking a Knight for kicking, you might as well just run Cadmus and just get a flat re-roll to wound vs everything with 12 or less wounds in the fight phase.

As for the argument that Krast will help vs Knights, then, when taking the standard 5++ into account, neither setup is going to 1 shot a Knight. The Krast Castellan will do 22 wounds on average, and the relic plasma will do 16.8 on average (without Krast WL trait) and 18 with the trait. So, it then comes down to the fact that the Krast Knight will drop a Knight into its lowest bracket, whereas a standard one won’t.

I’d still argue that the standard relic plasma will then be overall more useful from game to game.


While I agree that there might be a lack of Titanic models on the average table, I do think however that there are enough 10+ wound models around in every army that you can pretty much expect them in every game.
The only four armies that I can currently think of that in a pure list do not need to put out 10+ wound model to have a decent list seem to be Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Harlequins and Custodus.
Meanwhile Astra, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar always have at least a few models around with 10+ wounds and these are armies that (in my local meta) seem to be played a lot of times and whom you can certainly expect to see in tournaments.

The only thing I would think to be quite problematic to play against with this relic is Necrons. As your weapons suddenly become worst against their Quantum shielded vehicles as the relic might hinder your effectiveness against them.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 10:50:12


Post by: Mandragola


I'm going to the GW GT too. Might see you there! I'll be bringing a Taranis army with a Castellan, Warden with ironhail rockets, errant with fist and two warglaives - unless I have a better idea before then.

For that tournament, we can pick stratagems like extra warlords at the start of each game. They don't have to be written on our army lists.

So I'm going to write that I have Cawl's Wrath and Ion Bulwark on my warlord. In lots of games I'll then take cunning commander on one knight and a relic on another. This will usually either be the paragon gauntlet on the errant or endless fury on the warden - depending on whether I'm up against hordes or big crunchy stuff.

Bobby G is the most compelling non-knight option to me. Other stuff introduces problems like massively increasing your drop and kill point counts, while making it less likely that you'll go first.

I'm not sure he's a great pick at 1750 though. The trouble is that he's a force multiplier, and the force he multiplies best is a knight Castellan. It's pretty hard to fit him, a Castellan and two other Questoris knights into 1750. It can just about be done, but the knights you have to take won't have tons of guns - and of course Bobby himself isn't really 400 points worth of shooting.

So overall you've got a great force-multiplier, but much less force to begin with than if you just took more knights. Bobby, a Castellan, Errant and gallant brings way less firepower to the table than the 3 knights and two armigers that I plan to bring, for example. If you don't bring the Castellan then you could have a couple of crusaders and a Warden, but I really don't think giving them rerolls is as valuable as another knight.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 11:40:46


Post by: Ice_can


Bobby G is actually more damaging in CC than shooting and he really needs to be doing both to stand a chance of making his points back.

The reason he's usually shooting is because the rest of the codex sucks in CC. Pair Bobby G with a Gallant and your now adding an extra 2 in threat range (though Bobby onlu 9 inch move) and reroll1's in 12


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 12:07:39


Post by: Cephalobeard


 Crazyterran wrote:
Godeskian wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Four Knights and Guilliman might be an interesting list. Gives you 9cp, dont have to take Guard, and gives you an extra inch of run turn one.

Edit: personally, I dont see the point of Dominus in pure Knights list - it stops you from running five Knights and the weapons arent that amazing.

A pair of gallants, a pair of wardens, and a thermal Crusader is good, or a pair of gallants, an errant, a warden, and a BC Crusader might be good as well. I prefer the BC, but it means you trade a BC for a AGC essentially...


At 1750,,and Guilleman being 400 points you almost have to ho with three knights and him in 1750, at least I haven't been able to fit a fourth one in at those points.

Guilleman I think offers a good cp alternative and he's tough as nails in cc, with a native 3++ save. I'm considering running him instead of the fourth gallant


Other than GW whos playing 1750??


My location moved to it. A number of other competitive outlets across the US are trying it as well.

According to a poll of our 10k Member Competitive group on FB, 73% of players are were interested in a lower point value (With 2k Responses, or so.)


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 12:30:48


Post by: Kommissar Kel


That doesn't make much sense(your reasoning for exalted court being after warlord); the reason exalted court is after warlord is because it grants a warlord trait to each knight chosen.

Heirlooms getting changed to prevent solo knight auxiliary from being warlord wouldn't surprise me much; whether in the first FAQ, or down the line in CA 2018/the next big FAQ rebalancing.



Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 12:56:17


Post by: GuardStrider


What's the current consensus between post-codex Warglaives vs Helverins? I am considering getting a pair of armingers to make a super heavy detachment with my crusader but not sure which.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 13:30:29


Post by: Arlen


 GuardStrider wrote:
What's the current consensus between post-codex Warglaives vs Helverins? I am considering getting a pair of armingers to make a super heavy detachment with my crusader but not sure which.


In my gaming group both are seen as strong units.
Warglaives are great for backing up melee Knights and decent tank-hunters, but the Helverins are seen as the better option.
4D3 shots with an autocannon seems to be a great deal. Some of the space marine players here are considering taking several Helverins instead of their predators.
I would personally take the Helverins over the Warglaives when they are acting as support for the Crusader as they are great at taking out the smaller vehicles so that your crusader does not have to waste its weapons on those.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 13:44:34


Post by: GuardStrider


 Arlen wrote:
 GuardStrider wrote:
What's the current consensus between post-codex Warglaives vs Helverins? I am considering getting a pair of armingers to make a super heavy detachment with my crusader but not sure which.


In my gaming group both are seen as strong units.
Warglaives are great for backing up melee Knights and decent tank-hunters, but the Helverins are seen as the better option.
4D3 shots with an autocannon seems to be a great deal. Some of the space marine players here are considering taking several Helverins instead of their predators.
I would personally take the Helverins over the Warglaives when they are acting as support for the Crusader as they are great at taking out the smaller vehicles so that your crusader does not have to waste its weapons on those.

Yeah, I am also more inclined for Halverins gameplay wise though tbh I hate how they look


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 13:58:01


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


I think it depends on the rest of your army. If you have a gap then use whichever one fills that gap best. For instance I play GK and have a terrible time with heavy vehicles so I opted for the thermal spear and melee follow up.

If you look at the very first post in this thread you'll see a spreadsheet showing the average damage of IK weapons vs a variety of targets. I would use this as a guideline for your choice. And don't forget you can mix and match the armigers (as long as you use 3+) in a super heavy detachment and then select a household to make them more useful.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 14:01:12


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Basically: equally good; fill different roles.

They are equally priced point-wise with their "optimal" load-out: stubber on helverin, melta on Warglaives.

Warglaives are a get in close and tear up as much as possible.

Helverins are long range mobile fire support.

Whichever one your army is lacking, or is better supported by, is the ones you take.

If you plan to take a super-heavy detachment with 1 questoris class and 2 separate FOC Armigers you might consider taking 1 of each(although you must remeber without 3 bigger knights you don't get CPs for your Super Heavy detachment).

The points reduction and new chaincleaver profile did wonders for the Warglaive in viability: infantry used to be able to bog them down easier, and of course infantry is usually protecting vehicles from melta-type weapons(if you are within half-range for most, you are within charge range of suicidal bubble wrap).

If you hadn't picked up Forgebane then next week is the release of the warglaive box; for the $-price of 1 knight you can get 4 armigers(2 of each), so it is not a bad deal.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 14:12:22


Post by: Mandragola


I agree they are different units, with entirely different roles. As such, I don’t think you should consider which to take, as such. Instead, consider each one on its own, and whether you need it in your army.

For me, the helverin has a significant weakness in not being able to fall back and shoot. It’s the only unit in your army that has to worry about the enemy getting up close and bullying it.

As such, I think I wouldn’t take one, when I can spend the points on shooty knights instead and not have this problem.

On the other hand, having splitting your melee power into multiple models, by taking warglaives instead of (for example) a gallant, gives you a few advantages. They are faster (at least unless you spend CPs on full tilt) and they can be in two places at once. They are also cheaper, which is a good thing because going close to the enemy is dangerous! And they do have a decent gun with a pretty good range, so they aren’t forced into charging at people if that’s not the correct option on any given turn. This all needs to be set against the fact that a gallant does significantly more damage against most opponents in melee - at least by my very quick calculations - though the extra melta shots do help make some of the difference.

Anyway my headline would be that I think the best approach is to put big guns on your questoris and dominus knights, and consider having some warglaives ranging ahead. I’m not too sure what helverins bring that you can’t do with the big guys.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 19:13:44


Post by: tneva82


 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Finally, these strats hive the knight "Character". Does that really mean its treated as a character- ie, cannot be targeted by shooting unless it is closest model?


Well yes and no. They ARE characters but the shooting protection requires less than 10 wounds. Pretty sure no knight qualifies for that.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 19:45:51


Post by: Khadorstompy


Honestly I'm not Impressed with the Helverins at all and think that the Warglaives are much better. The average 8 shots at 60" is nice but its only reroll options are iffy (Only closest enemy units) or Expensive (Knight-Preceptor). Also it suffers from a bit of an identiny crisis having a weapon that's not strong enough to easily wound tougher models like LRs. Is AP isn't high enough to deal with Medium-High armour units especially if they camp in cover. They only place is seems to excel is at multi-wound units with 4++ or better.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 19:55:08


Post by: Ice_can


Khadorstompy wrote:
Honestly I'm not Impressed with the Helverins at all and think that the Warglaives are much better. The average 8 shots at 60" is nice but its only reroll options are iffy (Only closest enemy units) or Expensive (Knight-Preceptor). Also it suffers from a bit of an identiny crisis having a weapon that's not strong enough to easily wound tougher models like LRs. Is AP isn't high enough to deal with Medium-High armour units especially if they camp in cover. They only place is seems to excel is at multi-wound units with 4++ or better.

You now there is this busted unit called Golden Dbags Bikers rocking 3++ pretty much everywhere. Basically the exact target Helverins should be best at targeting.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 19:59:53


Post by: JNAProductions


Ice_can wrote:
Khadorstompy wrote:
Honestly I'm not Impressed with the Helverins at all and think that the Warglaives are much better. The average 8 shots at 60" is nice but its only reroll options are iffy (Only closest enemy units) or Expensive (Knight-Preceptor). Also it suffers from a bit of an identiny crisis having a weapon that's not strong enough to easily wound tougher models like LRs. Is AP isn't high enough to deal with Medium-High armour units especially if they camp in cover. They only place is seems to excel is at multi-wound units with 4++ or better.

You now there is this busted unit called Golden Dbags Bikers rocking 3++ pretty much everywhere. Basically the exact target Helverins should be best at targeting.


If they have a 3++, they're characters.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 20:06:03


Post by: GreatGranpapy


If i take a freeblade in an auxillary force for, say, ultramarines, would I still have access to knight stratagems? Assuming I wouldnt have that "cant use stratagems" thing of course.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 20:13:39


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


If you have a detachment and it's all IKs then the strategems are open to you.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 20:21:41


Post by: Kommissar Kel


 GreatGranpapy wrote:
If i take a freeblade in an auxillary force for, say, ultramarines, would I still have access to knight stratagems? Assuming I wouldnt have that "cant use stratagems" thing of course.


Yes, and as a freeblade you wouldn't get household traditions anyways so the "loss" of that ability from a super heavy auxiliary detachment doesn't hurt you in the slightest.

You would still need to spend CPs on exalted court or heirlooms in order to make him a character though(not that he has to be a character)


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 21:09:11


Post by: Mandragola


Yeah a single knight taken as an ally should arguably be a freeblade nowadays. The only exception is if there's a house-specific relic, warlord trait or stratagem that you'd really like to use on it.

You could argue that the house raven stratagem is good enough to warrant this. I'm not sure there's much else that does.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 21:29:50


Post by: Inevitableq


Ok as i am not usually an imperium player and gave no idea what all the guard terminology means. Would some one be able to tell what i would need to purchase from the gw site in order to build the 180 point guard battery? Nothing on there is listed as just guardsmen or commanders.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 21:37:58


Post by: Mandragola


So your cadian shock troops are the basic infantry: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Shock-Troops-2017. Sorry to say you'd need 3 of this box.

And for your commanders you could make two out of this box: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Command-Squad-2017

It's not what I would do, but those are the minis.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 21:52:00


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


tneva82 wrote:
 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Finally, these strats hive the knight "Character". Does that really mean its treated as a character- ie, cannot be targeted by shooting unless it is closest model?


Well yes and no. They ARE characters but the shooting protection requires less than 10 wounds. Pretty sure no knight qualifies for that.


Ha! Right, of course. I completely forgot about that minor but oh so veey important detail.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 21:55:09


Post by: Inevitableq


Mandragola wrote:
So your cadian shock troops are the basic infantry: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Shock-Troops-2017. Sorry to say you'd need 3 of this box.

And for your commanders you could make two out of this box: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Command-Squad-2017

It's not what I would do, but those are the minis.


Thank you for the info. As you seem against it. What would you do/suggest?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 21:56:02


Post by: Ice_can


Inevitableq wrote:
Ok as i am not usually an imperium player and gave no idea what all the guard terminology means. Would some one be able to tell what i would need to purchase from the gw site in order to build the 180 point guard battery? Nothing on there is listed as just guardsmen or commanders.


Your only realy looking for 27 dudes with las guns 3 with laspistol and CCW and 2 other models for the bare bones 180 pts version
You can also do triple mortars for still sub 200

Cadian Shock Troops
Catachan Jungle Fighters
Steel Legion Squad * IMHO these look the best but I wouldn't recommend them as I think they will be discontinued soon.

If I was going guard I would go Forgeworld Death Korps of Krieg they just look so bad ass compaired to the derp face GW models.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 22:00:41


Post by: TheMostWize


I run a single knight currently with my GK.

It is set up as a Knight Errant as that was the best option for me prior to the new book with the weapons i had available.

Now I am thinking about building an actual IK force.

Main thing is should I swap the Errant to a Paladin with the RFBC instead? Are Wardens still generally the best option far and away? Or should I tear off the chainsword arm and add an Avenger and make it a Crusader?

This is all something I am looking at prior to buying more knights still on the fence about that or starting a Drukhari force.

I suppose I should note main opponents are:

Wraithguard/Wave serpent spam Eldar
High T/W Chaos Space Marines (Land Raider, Magnus, Hellbrutes, Terminators stuff like that.)
Imperial Guard Average mix of tanks and infantry


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 22:08:38


Post by: urzaplanewalker


I just got the codex, and there are tons of references to Armiger's giving command points all over the place. That will be FAQed VERY SOON I'd wager.

With that in mind, here is the list I'm thinking:
Super Heavy Detachment (knight lance): House Taranis
Knight Castellan (Warlord: 4++) (Cawl's Wrath) (Free Character)
Knight Preceptor w/ Gauntlet & Melta
Knight Warden w/ Ironstorm
Super Heavy Detachment: House Taranis
3xArmiger Warglaves with meltas

1999 pnts. I may spend 1 cp to give the preceptor either the paragon gauntlet or the helm dominatus (depending on match-up) and I may spend an extra cp to give him landstrider (will spend 1 on Cunning Commander to get that for free otherwise).

Otherwise it'll be the following (might be a better list in general actually...):
Super Heavy Detachment (knight lance): House Taranis
Knight Castellan (Warlord: 4++) (Cawl's Wrath) (Free Character)
Knight Gallant
Knight Warden
Super Heavy Detachment Aux: House Mortan (For anti-flyer/eldar strategem)
Knight Paladin
Mechanicus Battalion: Graia
Enginseer x 2
Rangers x 3
1991 points... so an extra ranger maybe?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 23:15:35


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


You may want to rethink your second list. Your aux detachment can not have a house.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 23:36:59


Post by: jcd386


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You may want to rethink your second list. Your aux detachment can not have a house.


It can have a house KEYWORD, just not the house traits. So it can still use strategems and use the relic or warlord traits.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/13 23:59:18


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


True. It just seems like everyone equates keyword to trait right now with the aux detachment. No offense meant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
urzaplanewalker wrote:
I just got the codex, and there are tons of references to Armiger's giving command points all over the place. That will be FAQed VERY SOON I'd wager.


I just breezed through the codex and didn't see anything. Can you point me to some instances please?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 00:23:22


Post by: Invul




I just breezed through the codex and didn't see anything. Can you point me to some instances please?


Pages 87-89 show two example Lance Detachment lists, both with Armigers, and both giving out 3CP.

Yeah, I expect a FAQ will fix the Detachment ruling.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 00:24:19


Post by: urzaplanewalker


The 2 pages before the rules start basically. They talk about army creation.

Also ya. The trait I don't really care about. I care about hitting -3 to hit units for 1 cp.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 02:12:50


Post by: luke1705


So I know it’s more of an imperial guard army with a knight ally, but I wanted to mention it here, as I came at this list with the approach of starting with a Castellan in my army and seeing what I could do to support it.

My main consideration was that there are so many good stratagems and not enough CP in the world. Even at 8 CP with a guard battalion, I found that I’d want to spend too much CP pre-game, giving multiple knights a relic and most likely a warlord trait too, which would be 6 CP spent before the word go. Let alone the stratagems I wanted to use (notably rotate ion shields being so expensive on a dominus chassis), so I gravitated towards two batallions, but didn’t really like having a Freeblade Valiant (limited by 3 sources and the need for the relic flamer), and/or putting a cc knight in house Raven (which I believe is necessary for the Castellan).

So thus enters the guard brigade. A min brigade isn’t too expensive, but I wanted to use the brigade to address the horde weakness inherent in the knights codex, so enter fast attack hellhounds. Of course mortars help, but I like the idea of basilisks putting some extra wounds out at range. The only question was did I want to have a second knight or a BA battalion for Mephiston and a Slamguinius, plus some forward Scouts? I went with the latter, but I could be convinced otherwise. There are even enough points for a Castellan, 2 Shooty armigers, a Warden, plus a small guard brigade if you want to go more knight heavy.

What I’m going to playtest first is:

Raven Castellan

Mephiston
Slamguinius
3 x 5 Scouts

3 x Company Commander
3 x Platoon Commander
4 x 8 infantry + 1 mortar
2 x 10 infantry
3 x hellhounds
3 x Earthshaker batteries

That’s a casual 20 CP with 2 5+ CP regen relics and the grand strategist warlord trait for even more CP.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 02:37:06


Post by: Eldenfirefly


So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 03:01:01


Post by: Bi'ios


Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?


Look at that IG battalion like this. You’re spending those points on 38 wounds split up among 5 units (who’s only purpose is to die), and significantly boosted firepower/survival/whatever thanks to the CP. The extra CP will enable you to rock 3 relics and warlord traits, and still have 5-6 CP left over for death grips, ion shield rotations, boosted explosions, and whatever else that wouldn’t be happening in a pure list. I don’t really wanna do it, personally, since I like the idea of a pure Knight army, but the benefits are just too great to ignore.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 03:23:25


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?

Do you play ITC or something else?

Because then you need to weigh whether giving up the points guardsmen give the opponent is worth the 5cp it provides. Which is no light thing. Those games are decided on the first few turns. 30 guardsmen and 2 officers may sometimes be easier (or the only) points your opponent can take in those turns, whereas a pure knight list may not have as much CP, but give up less points for victory conditions.

I mean 5cp (and Regen potentially) is great, but if you don't have a plan for those CP then it may not be as good of an idea.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 08:17:10


Post by: Ice_can


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, bringing up the discussion again, is it better to have that 180 point IG batallion which is just there to generate 5 more CP, or to have one more say Amiger instead of that batallion?

I guess my question: Is that IG batallion and 5 more CP more useful than one single Amiger?

Do you play ITC or something else?

Because then you need to weigh whether giving up the points guardsmen give the opponent is worth the 5cp it provides. Which is no light thing. Those games are decided on the first few turns. 30 guardsmen and 2 officers may sometimes be easier (or the only) points your opponent can take in those turns, whereas a pure knight list may not have as much CP, but give up less points for victory conditions.

I mean 5cp (and Regen potentially) is great, but if you don't have a plan for those CP then it may not be as good of an idea.

That why it realy should be 195 points of guard as it get you 3 9 model units instead which also improves the utility of your CP battery.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 09:35:03


Post by: U02dah4


If im considering
Crusader
Warden
2 helvarin

Do we think adding 1 gallant or 2 warglaives would be better


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 09:38:56


Post by: Kdash


U02dah4 wrote:
If im considering
Crusader
Warden
2 helvarin

Do we think adding 1 gallant or 2 warglaives would be better


Completely depends on your overall plan.

The Gallant will give you +3 CP, whereas the Warglaives will give you additional ranged firepower. If you are ok with starting with only 3 CP, then give the Warglaives a go.

If you want additional relics, or the odd stratagem, then, you’ll need the +3 CP from the Gallant.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 12:03:09


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Invul wrote:


I just breezed through the codex and didn't see anything. Can you point me to some instances please?


Pages 87-89 show two example Lance Detachment lists, both with Armigers, and both giving out 3CP.

Yeah, I expect a FAQ will fix the Detachment ruling.


I would like to see that errata reduce the number of big knights from 3 to 2, the rule is clearly there to prevent knights players from taking 3 1-model armiger units as a CP generator. Sure, rule of 3 means you could only take 2 such detachments, but that will still net 12 CPs for a minimum of 2115 points(3 gallants)

Having 6 total choices(like on pages 88-89) with 1 or 2 of them as armigers shouldn't be hamstrung with 1 of the superheavy detachments incapable of meeting the 3-bigguns requirement.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 12:22:46


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Invul wrote:
Pages 87-89 show two example Lance Detachment lists, both with Armigers, and both giving out 3CP.

Yeah, I expect a FAQ will fix the Detachment ruling.


The first army (the red one) is correct per the no CPs for armigers rule. The detachment has 3 big knights and as such gets 3 CP then since it's battle forged it gains another 3 points for 6 total points. The second army (the blue one) is calculated incorrectly since it is being given credit for a second detachment consisting of only 1 big knight and 2 armigers but yeilding a total of 9CPs (it should be 6 based on the current rules).

So it seems that somewhere the rule was changed but not everyone got the memo. Whether the change was to allow armigers to give CPs or not there is a definite disconnect within the Codex. Hopefully the FAQ will be coming out soon and address which is the correct way to calculate CP.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 15:29:34


Post by: Invul


Leo_the_Rat wrote:

The first army (the red one) is correct per the no CPs for armigers rule. The detachment has 3 big knights and as such gets 3 CP then since it's battle forged it gains another 3 points for 6 total points.


No, the red example only has two big boys, and makes sure to point out it has “one of every class of Knight- Armiger, Questoris, Dominus.” And it gets you the total of 6CP (3 for Super Heavy, 3 for battleforged). It’s like the CP rules were changed at the last minute or something.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 15:44:09


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


You are correct. I must have misread the article. My apologies.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 15:54:34


Post by: Cephalobeard


So, I've been playing around with an idea, humor me folks.

Knight Preceptor
Las/Gauntlet (4++ Warlord Trait, Helm Dominatus)

2x 3 Helverins
Stubbers

All as Taranis.

This lets us almost guarantee the Preceptor stays alive, always, with the Strat to stand back up if he doesn't explode, while also giving us 6 Helverins that are BS2+ Rerolling 1s against a unit, or normally BS3+ rerolling 1s.

All the Helverins have FNP, super long range and run around with the Preceptor as a death blob, meanwhile the Preceptor is death gripping anything that comes too close, etc.

This with a guard or admech battalion could be interesting.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:02:15


Post by: U02dah4


Untill you come up against a hoard and do nothing


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:03:41


Post by: Cephalobeard


Yep. That's absolutely a thing. Realized it while typing.

Equally curious about a similar process, but using Warglaives who would then at least be able to chew through hordes a bit easier, and potentially swap yourself to an Imperialis House, giving all the heavy stubbers -1 ap for the game, too.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:05:34


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


Because I am not in the mood to buy Guard models and have like a dozen unbuilt Knight kits in my studio... I figured I would post up a super-generic, "oh look, another pure Knight list" that has likely already been posted.

Anyhow, here it is in all its shocking originality!

House Raven Exalted Court

Knight Warden
Avenger w/ HF, HS
Ion Bulwark
[411]

Knight Warden
Avenger w/ HF, HS
Landstrider
[411]

Knight Warden
Avenger w/ HF, HS
Cunning Commander
[411]

Knight Errant
TC, HS
[395]

Knight Gallant
Ironstorm
[370]

[1998]

Nothing fancy. Exalted Court gets me the 4++ and Landstrider, which seem mandatory. Cunning for the +1CP to offset the cost. This gives me 4CP to Rotate in a pinch and Full Tilt the Gallant. Not sure on the Relic just yet. The 2+ armor save on the Warlord is doable, but the Banner on the Gallant to re-roll 1's might not be bad.

Everything can advance and shoot. I know the Ironstorm isn't popular, but there aren't a lot of good ways to burn points in a pure Knight list.

Thoughts? Obviously, "add a Guard Battalion for CP" is out, but anything obvious I am missing?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:12:52


Post by: luke1705


U02dah4 wrote:
Untill you come up against a hoard and do nothing


This is also why it is important to bring an allied battalion. The amount of anti-horde that hellhounds, vultures, wyverns, punisher cannons, and the like can provide is nothing to scoff at. Ordinarily, we would say "ah but they don't have enough durability vs anti-tank weapons"

Every shot they take is a shot not directed at your knight, and if you do it right, you could absolutely get 2 (and probably up to 4 or maybe even 5 with the right deployment) vehicles protected vs turn 1 shooting somewhat with the Ion Aegis stratagem. Sure, it only protects against AP -3 or better if you have the tank standard 3+ save, but those are also usually the most damaging shots.

Stand next to that annoyingly hard to kill dominus class knight and profit!

That is not the only reason that it's good to bring allied guard. The armigers' output (which is still less than amazing to my eye) is not better than CP. Those stratagems will absolutely save your bacon. Imagine you're bringing 3 big knights. Want a warlord trait and a relic on all of them? Cool. That's 6 CP.

So you start with 3, get 3 for the super heavy detachment.....and then....oh wait. You have zero CP left, except for what your other detachments bring. Unbelievably necessary to use any significant amount of stratagems to have at minimum, 2 other battalions or a brigade IMO. If you don't want to play it that way, no worries, but you're going to have so much more fun (again, IMO) when you can actually USE your stratagems and not run out of CP on turn 1.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:13:38


Post by: Mandragola


Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:20:30


Post by: JNAProductions


Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.


Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:26:11


Post by: Cephalobeard


 JNAProductions wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.


Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.


Yeah. It's not great. The threat of that alone halted the idea.

How might Warglaives face? One would hope with WS3+ and the new Sweep attack, they'd chew through things a bit better. Barring we operate in magical christmas land where they've survived.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:28:16


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


I'm thinking:
2 Warglaives with meltas
2 Halverins with stubbers
Preceptor
Gallant
Crusader Avenger, RFBC, Melta

I have points left over for 1 storm spear but I'm not sure where to put it. I'm favoring the Crusader.

As to house I'm torn between Hawkshroud and Raven.

Everything else is up in the air.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:30:40


Post by: JNAProductions


 Cephalobeard wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.


Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.


Yeah. It's not great. The threat of that alone halted the idea.

How might Warglaives face? One would hope with WS3+ and the new Sweep attack, they'd chew through things a bit better. Barring we operate in magical christmas land where they've survived.


Worse, probably.

3 attacks
6 swings
3 hits
2 wounds
1.33 unsaved
.89 past the FNP


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:32:09


Post by: Cephalobeard


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Helverins are better than nothing against hordes. 6 of them generate 48 shots, which is a problem even for plaguebearers.

The problem they’ll have is getting locked in combat, and that’s why I don’t really rate them I’m afraid. they need babysitters, and this list doesn’t have enough of them. The guard will be drowned in something like orks without having any real impact.


Is it, though?

48 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
10.67 failed saves
10.27 after FNP

Congrats, your six Armigers deleted 70 points worth of Plaguebearers. In my Nurgle Daemons lists, I run 60 of them.

If there's a Sloppity Bilepiper and an Icon, they then have a...

30.56% chance of getting d6 back, or 42.13% chance with a command point.


Yeah. It's not great. The threat of that alone halted the idea.

How might Warglaives face? One would hope with WS3+ and the new Sweep attack, they'd chew through things a bit better. Barring we operate in magical christmas land where they've survived.


Worse, probably.

3 attacks
6 swings
3 hits
2 wounds
1.33 unsaved
.89 past the FNP






Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:33:55


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Assuming WS 3+ why do 6 swings generate only 3 hits? Shouldn't it be 4 (not that it will make that much difference)?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:35:32


Post by: JNAProductions


Plaguebearers inflict a -1 to hit if squad size is 20+.

Also Miasma of Pestilence.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:37:07


Post by: Cephalobeard


Here is their, baseline, GEQ/Avenger/MEQ/TEQ/Crisis/Rhino/Russ/Landraider output.

Giving them a preceptor for rerolls to 1s makes it slightly more.

[Thumb - Glaive.png]


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:40:40


Post by: JNAProductions


Oh, they're 4 base?

My bad. Up the numbers I gave by 33%.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:42:14


Post by: Cephalobeard


I pinned an image of all knight weapon's damage output against all targets to the first post, just to alleviate any future claims to your math, JNA. Lol

We've seen enough of that in other threads, so helpfully this prevents any headaches for you.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:49:50


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


So which category do plague bearers fall under?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 16:51:58


Post by: Cephalobeard


A very unique one, lol

They're basically the definition of beefy horde.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 17:49:23


Post by: Ideasweasel


Daft question but I’m a daft person. I’m about to play a game with a solo knight. What is it I have to do to get warlord trait and relic on it?

Can anyone shed light on this for me. Do I burn 2CP by using exalted court and heirlooms of the household?

That sound right?


Edit** got my answer


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 18:05:09


Post by: urzaplanewalker


 Ideasweasel wrote:
Daft question but I’m a daft person. I’m about to play a game with a solo knight. What is it I have to do to get warlord trait and relic on it?

Can anyone shed light on this for me. Do I burn 2CP by using exalted court and heirlooms of the household?

That sound right?


Edit** got my answer


Yes. You also don't get household traits, so making it a freeblade is a good option if you don't care about the household only strats. (This is free)


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 18:06:09


Post by: magodedisco


 luke1705 wrote:
So I know it’s more of an imperial guard army with a knight ally, but I wanted to mention it here, as I came at this list with the approach of starting with a Castellan in my army and seeing what I could do to support it.

My main consideration was that there are so many good stratagems and not enough CP in the world. Even at 8 CP with a guard battalion, I found that I’d want to spend too much CP pre-game, giving multiple knights a relic and most likely a warlord trait too, which would be 6 CP spent before the word go. Let alone the stratagems I wanted to use (notably rotate ion shields being so expensive on a dominus chassis), so I gravitated towards two batallions, but didn’t really like having a Freeblade Valiant (limited by 3 sources and the need for the relic flamer), and/or putting a cc knight in house Raven (which I believe is necessary for the Castellan).

So thus enters the guard brigade. A min brigade isn’t too expensive, but I wanted to use the brigade to address the horde weakness inherent in the knights codex, so enter fast attack hellhounds. Of course mortars help, but I like the idea of basilisks putting some extra wounds out at range. The only question was did I want to have a second knight or a BA battalion for Mephiston and a Slamguinius, plus some forward Scouts? I went with the latter, but I could be convinced otherwise. There are even enough points for a Castellan, 2 Shooty armigers, a Warden, plus a small guard brigade if you want to go more knight heavy.

...


I'm glad to see someone else landed on the same page regarding IKs. Point-for-point, a Raven Castellan looks to be the most efficient ranged option the codex has to offer. Additionally, you can only use the +1 invul strat once per turn, so having more than one knight will just result in smart opponents blasting the most vulnerable Knight first. 3 CP is expensive, but you'll probably only do it for 2-3 turns. Furthermore, you can eschew it completely against lists that don't offer much of a long-ranged threat (switching WL trait too, if you're feeling bold!). Regarding the heavy CP need, I also landed on bringing an AM brigade instead of the common battalion. However, I plan to run a plasma-heavy Elysian battalion as my third detachment.

Regarding splashing Astra Militarum for cheap command points, I see a lot of posts that seem to be regarding it as a kind of "tax." As such, I want to sing the praises of the humble Infantry Squad, which I feel is one of the best units in the game when combined with Commanders. Here are a few highlights:

1. Don't underestimate how effective 10 guardsmen can be when using FRFSRF. 37 shots at 4+ to hit will tear up infantry and still ding higher-toughness units. For a paltry 110 points (2 squads + company commander), you've got a total of 74 such shots, with an 18" reach (possibly more depending on regiment).

2. Guardsmen offer incredible board control. First off, they're crazy fast when needed. If using the "Move! Move! Move!" strat, they can scoot an AVERAGE of 19" in a single turn. This can allow some gross screening potential and let you stretch out to grab objectives better than units that seem faster.

3. Guardsmen can be surprisingly survivable. Between the +1 save psychic power, the +1 save strat, and the -1 to hit strat, you can toughen a unit up quite a bit. Furthermore, you can spend the first couple of turns combining infantry squads, which maximize the value of these buffs. Finally, the 3 CP strat that gives Imperium units a 5+ invul could be combined with all of the above in a pinch to offer you 20+ guardsmen with a 3+ invul, at -1 to hit them...

In terms of just the Commanders, Kurov's Aquila + Grand Strategist is just gross in its current state and seems too good to pass up for a CP-hungry army, especially when we are talking about a codex (Knights) that can generate Warlord traits with a stratagem.

As such, don't knock the guardsmen 'til you've tried them. I can definitely respect someone wanting to keep their army pure IK, but if playing a strong list is the primary goal, I think it's a no-brainer.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 18:12:32


Post by: Astmeister


Someone asked for a Terryn list. Mine would look like this at 2000

2×Gallant
Paladin (thunder of Voltoris)
Errant
Crusader with Thermal cannon and Ironstorm missile pod


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 19:09:13


Post by: jcd386


 magodedisco wrote:
 luke1705 wrote:
So I know it’s more of an imperial guard army with a knight ally, but I wanted to mention it here, as I came at this list with the approach of starting with a Castellan in my army and seeing what I could do to support it.

My main consideration was that there are so many good stratagems and not enough CP in the world. Even at 8 CP with a guard battalion, I found that I’d want to spend too much CP pre-game, giving multiple knights a relic and most likely a warlord trait too, which would be 6 CP spent before the word go. Let alone the stratagems I wanted to use (notably rotate ion shields being so expensive on a dominus chassis), so I gravitated towards two batallions, but didn’t really like having a Freeblade Valiant (limited by 3 sources and the need for the relic flamer), and/or putting a cc knight in house Raven (which I believe is necessary for the Castellan).

So thus enters the guard brigade. A min brigade isn’t too expensive, but I wanted to use the brigade to address the horde weakness inherent in the knights codex, so enter fast attack hellhounds. Of course mortars help, but I like the idea of basilisks putting some extra wounds out at range. The only question was did I want to have a second knight or a BA battalion for Mephiston and a Slamguinius, plus some forward Scouts? I went with the latter, but I could be convinced otherwise. There are even enough points for a Castellan, 2 Shooty armigers, a Warden, plus a small guard brigade if you want to go more knight heavy.

...


I'm glad to see someone else landed on the same page regarding IKs. Point-for-point, a Raven Castellan looks to be the most efficient ranged option the codex has to offer. Additionally, you can only use the +1 invul strat once per turn, so having more than one knight will just result in smart opponents blasting the most vulnerable Knight first. 3 CP is expensive, but you'll probably only do it for 2-3 turns. Furthermore, you can eschew it completely against lists that don't offer much of a long-ranged threat (switching WL trait too, if you're feeling bold!). Regarding the heavy CP need, I also landed on bringing an AM brigade instead of the common battalion. However, I plan to run a plasma-heavy Elysian battalion as my third detachment.

Regarding splashing Astra Militarum for cheap command points, I see a lot of posts that seem to be regarding it as a kind of "tax." As such, I want to sing the praises of the humble Infantry Squad, which I feel is one of the best units in the game when combined with Commanders. Here are a few highlights:

1. Don't underestimate how effective 10 guardsmen can be when using FRFSRF. 37 shots at 4+ to hit will tear up infantry and still ding higher-toughness units. For a paltry 110 points (2 squads + company commander), you've got a total of 74 such shots, with an 18" reach (possibly more depending on regiment).

2. Guardsmen offer incredible board control. First off, they're crazy fast when needed. If using the "Move! Move! Move!" strat, they can scoot an AVERAGE of 19" in a single turn. This can allow some gross screening potential and let you stretch out to grab objectives better than units that seem faster.

3. Guardsmen can be surprisingly survivable. Between the +1 save psychic power, the +1 save strat, and the -1 to hit strat, you can toughen a unit up quite a bit. Furthermore, you can spend the first couple of turns combining infantry squads, which maximize the value of these buffs. Finally, the 3 CP strat that gives Imperium units a 5+ invul could be combined with all of the above in a pinch to offer you 20+ guardsmen with a 3+ invul, at -1 to hit them...

In terms of just the Commanders, Kurov's Aquila + Grand Strategist is just gross in its current state and seems too good to pass up for a CP-hungry army, especially when we are talking about a codex (Knights) that can generate Warlord traits with a stratagem.

As such, don't knock the guardsmen 'til you've tried them. I can definitely respect someone wanting to keep their army pure IK, but if playing a strong list is the primary goal, I think it's a no-brainer.


Most of the complaints I've seen about it are because it's such a no brainier. There are very few reasons not to want cheap IG in your army as it is, and the CP make it foolish not to.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 20:11:22


Post by: Mandragola


Luckily, nobody's talking about using just a few armigers against plaguebearers. There will be a few big knights kicking around as well. But yes, they are a definite problem.

I've faced 120, all in units of 30 that trail back to a single tree and an assortment of buff characters. They just cover the board.

It's not impossible to deal with them though. One approach seems is to really focus on a squad and try to wipe it out. I'm not sure if that's the best way though. Morale can kill lots of these big units if they don't roll a 1 (in which case D6 come back, which is super-annoying!). If you cause significant casualties to a couple of different units for them to be taking tests then you can see a lot of them run off.

Once there are <20 left at the start of a phase they lose their -1 to be hit bonus. So it probably makes sense to shoot up one squad, then charge it with two or three knights and try to smash it. Note that if there are 20+ at the start of a phase they keep the -1 until the next phase, no matter how many you kill.

Plaguebearer characters might be a prime target to have missiles shot at them using the stratagem. The problem is that one missile is very unlikely to do the job, due to their FNP, and you could end up throwing away a lot of CPs that way.

Anyway my initial point is that I don't think helverins would be a huge amount of use in this match up, and I think I stand by that. Armigers don't do as much with shooting but remember that in cc they get to fight in the nurgle player's turn as well as their own, which significantly improves their output - so long as they live long enough.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 21:25:52


Post by: Ideasweasel


urzaplanewalker wrote:
 Ideasweasel wrote:
Daft question but I’m a daft person. I’m about to play a game with a solo knight. What is it I have to do to get warlord trait and relic on it?

Can anyone shed light on this for me. Do I burn 2CP by using exalted court and heirlooms of the household?

That sound right?


Edit** got my answer


Yes. You also don't get household traits, so making it a freeblade is a good option if you don't care about the household only strats. (This is free)


Cool thanks


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 22:03:02


Post by: Godeskian


For your consideration

Chillen, grab a seat and let papa Quinlan tell you de tale of how he got tabled in t'ree turns

Spoiler:

----

So, got my first game in with Knights, brought my wrecking ball list (3 x Valiant at 1750), versus a tau list containing
* Coldstar
* 7 x 5 Firewarriors squads
* 1 x 6 Stealth Suits
* Cadre Fireblade
* Longstrike
* Commander ni a battlesuit with 4 Fusion Blasters
* Riptide
* Broadside with missiles
* Broadside with Railgun
* 2 x 4 drones

This game did not go well for me. I lost the roll off with a 1 versus his four, and his turn one, between the Marker Lights, the Coldstar and Riptide and some spectacularly bad dicerolling, I lose my Landstrider Valiant, he blew up big and put 4 wounds on my HQ and 6 on the other Valiant.

In my turn one I moved both of them up and used the Raven household tradition to move them up further. I ended up using my two conflagration cannons to wipe out one squad of firewarriors and most of a squad of stealth suits. All 8 melta shots and both Harpoons failed to put a single wound onto his cold star between my inability to hit with the Harpoons and his epic save rolls. Charging accounted for 3 wounds on the Coldstar and three more dead firewarriors

His turn 2 he moved his commander into Melta-range and overcharged the Riptide and managed to nail my second Valiant, leaving me with one wounded knight. Longstrike rolled double 1 to hit for the second turn in a row

In my turn 2 I wiped out two more squads of firewarriors with the Siegebreaker and the Conflagration cannon. The harpoon missed again, but the Melta shots killed the Coldstar and I kicked the Stealth suits to death.

Unfortunately, he was now close enough to move all his remaining firewarriors into 15'' range and triple his shots thanks to the Fireblade, and he basically plinked me down to 2 wounds.

For my turn 3, I fired the conflagration cannon at the Riptide, an he saved all but one wound which he tanked onto a drone, while the Siegebreaker did well and the melta's killed his commander. The harpoon missed AGAIN.

We called it there, with him effectively a half dozen command points ahead, and me on two wounds.

My main take away is this
* Turn 1 is unblievably vital for Knights
* Three Valiants is too few models. Your opponent can simply focus them down too easy
* the close range of the weapons is crippling against an army with more firepower than you have.

Bottom line, I do not think I'll be taking this build to GT. Next week I'll be trying out my four knight build, and I shall report back on what happens.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 22:45:14


Post by: Mandragola


Godeskian wrote:
For your consideration

Chillen, grab a seat and let papa Quinlan tell you de tale of how he got tabled in t'ree turns

Spoiler:

----

So, got my first game in with Knights, brought my wrecking ball list (3 x Valiant at 1750), versus a tau list containing
* Coldstar
* 7 x 5 Firewarriors squads
* 1 x 6 Stealth Suits
* Cadre Fireblade
* Longstrike
* Commander ni a battlesuit with 4 Fusion Blasters
* Riptide
* Broadside with missiles
* Broadside with Railgun
* 2 x 4 drones

This game did not go well for me. I lost the roll off with a 1 versus his four, and his turn one, between the Marker Lights, the Coldstar and Riptide and some spectacularly bad dicerolling, I lose my Landstrider Valiant, he blew up big and put 4 wounds on my HQ and 6 on the other Valiant.

In my turn one I moved both of them up and used the Raven household tradition to move them up further. I ended up using my two conflagration cannons to wipe out one squad of firewarriors and most of a squad of stealth suits. All 8 melta shots and both Harpoons failed to put a single wound onto his cold star between my inability to hit with the Harpoons and his epic save rolls. Charging accounted for 3 wounds on the Coldstar and three more dead firewarriors

His turn 2 he moved his commander into Melta-range and overcharged the Riptide and managed to nail my second Valiant, leaving me with one wounded knight. Longstrike rolled double 1 to hit for the second turn in a row

In my turn 2 I wiped out two more squads of firewarriors with the Siegebreaker and the Conflagration cannon. The harpoon missed again, but the Melta shots killed the Coldstar and I kicked the Stealth suits to death.

Unfortunately, he was now close enough to move all his remaining firewarriors into 15'' range and triple his shots thanks to the Fireblade, and he basically plinked me down to 2 wounds.

For my turn 3, I fired the conflagration cannon at the Riptide, an he saved all but one wound which he tanked onto a drone, while the Siegebreaker did well and the melta's killed his commander. The harpoon missed AGAIN.

We called it there, with him effectively a half dozen command points ahead, and me on two wounds.

My main take away is this
* Turn 1 is unblievably vital for Knights
* Three Valiants is too few models. Your opponent can simply focus them down too easy
* the close range of the weapons is crippling against an army with more firepower than you have.

Bottom line, I do not think I'll be taking this build to GT. Next week I'll be trying out my four knight build, and I shall report back on what happens.

Thanks for the report. Interesting to see that someone actually took the 3 valiants in 1750 list I’d thought of. Shame, though not totally surprising, that it didn’t work out. Tau are probably one of the worst possible opponents for this list, and going 2nd isn’t fun at all.

I basically think you need to start killing things on turn 1 with any normal (non-horde) army in 40k now. Where Valiants fall down is that they don’t really do that, and against a mobile enemy they never do.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 22:48:19


Post by: KillswitchUK


Part 1 review of the new Imperial Knights Codex:

https://www.glasshammergaming.co.uk/2018/06/13/imperial-knights-review-part-1/



Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/14 23:27:21


Post by: casvalremdeikun


So I was looking at the Sanctuary Relic and Rotate Ion Shields. From the looks of it, Rotate Ion Shields makes the 5+ in Close Combat turn to a 4+. To me, this seems like a perfect way to keep your Knight alive when it gets rushed by a dedicated Smashy unit (Captain Slam, for example). That seems to be one of our biggest weaknesses, so being able to shrug off a good portion of CC, all for just one CP. Technically, it can be used for giving your Knight a 6+ Invulnerable in CC at any time, but there really aren't that many CC weapons with -4 AP. *Rereads* Okay, a case could be made for it not working on a non-Sanctuary Knight in CC since, at that point, it doesn't have an Invulnerable save active.

Still, I am sticking Sanctuary and Legacy of the Black Pall on my Warlord (a Knight Crusader) for maximum protection. Though which is more useful, Ion Bulwark(4++ vs all shooting) or Legacy of the Black Pall (-1 on shooting attacks from greater than 18" away). With stuff like rerolls, Bulwark might still be the better option.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 00:04:17


Post by: drbored


Had a battle with the new Knights. I'll do my best to tell you how they went...

First Battle: 2000 pts, IK vs Harlequins
My list:
Knights - Hawkshroud - Valiant (relic), Warden (relic), Errant
Space Marines - Raven Guard - Captain, Lieutenant, 3 Tac Squads, 1 Ironclad Dreadnought

His list:
Harlequins - bunch of rules I don't understand
3 troupes in transports all with fusion pistols, 2 shadowseers, 1 solitaire, 1 troupe master, 3 units of bikes with haywires, 1 Wraithknight

Dawn of War deployment with 6 objectives that didn't matter.

Knights won first turn, got rid of 3 bike models. Moved up while Space Marines cowered in ruins near objectives that didn't matter.

Harlequins turn, everything ran up to get into fusion pistol range. Wraithknight charged my Valiant which was a huge mistake (auto-hits and re-rolling wounds brought it down to its last profile fast). Valiant then kicked the Wraithknight to pieces.

Knights turn 2, I massacred some bikes, Ironclad knocked out a transport, and the Warden shot a few things and then charged into close combat. Valiant struggled to do anything to the Solitaire due to Fog.

Harlequins did their best to kill some Space Marines. Surrounded my Warden and brought it down with fusion pistols. I then used the extra explodey stratagem that made it delete a troop squad, 2 shadowseers, a bike, and brought Troupe Master down to 1 wound.

Knights turn 3 the Valiant finally knocked out the Solitaire and the rest of the bikes were cleaned up. At that point, Harlequins conceded due to lack of models that could do anything and fusion pistols whiffing hardcore.

Harlequins simply can't pump out enough damage, even with haywire and fusion pistols, to knock out the Knights. His Wraithknight ended up being a huge point sink, though it would have probably done a lot better had it charged any of the other knights, or went in with a screen of some kind.

--

I can say with confidence that the Harpoon is really underwhelming on the Valiant. If you shoot it at anything that has an invul save, you'll just whiff or they'll make their save. However, that Conflagration Cannon, along with all the other guns, is where the Valiant really shines. Taking the Traitor's Pyre is a no-brainer if you're bothering to take the Valiant. It can delete nearly anything if you get a half-way decent roll on the auto-hits.

The other knights are just as tough as ever. I wouldn't take more than 1 Dominus in any list, and taking a battalion of just about ANY other Imperium faction is necessary to get enough command points to do what you want to do, whether that's rotating ion shields every turn, taking extra relics and warlord traits, or doing Death Grip for fun.

It's a bit sad that Knights rely on this, but I think it opens up for some thematic lists. I know a couple creative people are going to have fun turning their Skitarii or Guardsmen into Knight guards of some kind. Space Marines are simply too expensive to really work in this regard, though I have a feeling when Sisters of Battle get their update, we'll see a lot of them in Knight lists to fill out Battalions with lots of bolters.

Also, even having just a 5+ invul save is really, really, really fantastic. I don't care that it's only against shooting, most 40k armies are going to try to do the most damage they can in shooting with melta, las, and other things. That 5+ invul to ignore the one or two melta or lascannon shots that do hit is just phenomenal. Even if you don't make it, it's so much nicer to have the ability to make the roll and participate in the game, versus Space Marine and Guard vehicles that just take the damage. I now know how Custodes and Admech feel when they get all their invul saves.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 00:08:13


Post by: Mandragola


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So I was looking at the Sanctuary Relic and Rotate Ion Shields. From the looks of it, Rotate Ion Shields makes the 5+ in Close Combat turn to a 4+. To me, this seems like a perfect way to keep your Knight alive when it gets rushed by a dedicated Smashy unit (Captain Slam, for example). That seems to be one of our biggest weaknesses, so being able to shrug off a good portion of CC, all for just one CP. Technically, it can be used for giving your Knight a 6+ Invulnerable in CC at any time, but there really aren't that many CC weapons with -4 AP. *Rereads* Okay, a case could be made for it not working on a non-Sanctuary Knight in CC since, at that point, it doesn't have an Invulnerable save active.

Still, I am sticking Sanctuary and Legacy of the Black Pall on my Warlord (a Knight Crusader) for maximum protection. Though which is more useful, Ion Bulwark(4++ vs all shooting) or Legacy of the Black Pall (-1 on shooting attacks from greater than 18" away). With stuff like rerolls, Bulwark might still be the better option.

I think that Sanctuary and Black Pall are kind of either/or. A knight that's fighting in cc a lot isn't going to get a lot of benefit out of -1 to hit outside of 18".

Black Pall is decent on something like a crusader, but to be honest I think you're right to be asking whether the straight 4++ is better in most cases. The fact is, it depends on the BS of incoming fire. Ion Bulwark reduces incoming damage by 25% compared to a 5++. Black Pall does the same thing against BS3+, but against BS 4+ it goes up to a 33% reduction, and it's a 50% reduction against BS5+. So I guess if you're worried about being out-shot by orks, Black Pall is the one for you. It's more than decent against IG too. It does almost nothing against high-BS armies that want to come towards you though. Black Pall of course helps more against AP0 or -1, against which Ion Bulwark is irrelevant, but in most cases those weapons aren't too dangerous to knights anyway.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 00:17:04


Post by: jcd386


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So I was looking at the Sanctuary Relic and Rotate Ion Shields. From the looks of it, Rotate Ion Shields makes the 5+ in Close Combat turn to a 4+. To me, this seems like a perfect way to keep your Knight alive when it gets rushed by a dedicated Smashy unit (Captain Slam, for example). That seems to be one of our biggest weaknesses, so being able to shrug off a good portion of CC, all for just one CP. Technically, it can be used for giving your Knight a 6+ Invulnerable in CC at any time, but there really aren't that many CC weapons with -4 AP. *Rereads* Okay, a case could be made for it not working on a non-Sanctuary Knight in CC since, at that point, it doesn't have an Invulnerable save active.

Still, I am sticking Sanctuary and Legacy of the Black Pall on my Warlord (a Knight Crusader) for maximum protection. Though which is more useful, Ion Bulwark(4++ vs all shooting) or Legacy of the Black Pall (-1 on shooting attacks from greater than 18" away). With stuff like rerolls, Bulwark might still be the better option.


It depends what is shooting at you. Re-rolls don't matter because re-rolls happen before modifiers so 3s still miss, but the AP of the weapon has a lot to do with it.

If you are hit with BS3+ AP2 (or AP3 if you have the 2+ armor relic) or better (so you don't get to use any armor) the -1 to hit and 5++ are just as good as the 4++ math wise. This is assuming the enemy has to roll to hit (some units don't) and is over 18" away. If you use rorate Ion shields against this fire, the 3++ becomes better than the -1 to hit 4++, because going from a 4++ to a 3++ is always better than a 5++ to a 4++ (because you reduce the number of failed saves by 1/3rd vs 1/4th).

If you are hit by something with -1 AP (or -2 if you have the 2+ armor relic) the -1 5++ is better than the 4++, because the -1 5++ gets to use it's 4+ armor save against those shots. If you rotate ion shields to get a 3++ on the 4++ knight, it becomes slightly better (10 autocannons do 2.916 damage to the -1 4+ 5++ and 2.59 damage to the 3++). The difference here is that the -1 4+ 5++ knight doesn't even pop the shields, since he is already getting a 4+ armor, so he does spend less CP at the cost of taking a bit more damage.

If you get shot by something AP0 (or AP1 if you have the 2+ armor) the -1 5++ is better than the 4++, and ion shields is useless.

Another thing to consider is that the having the 2+ armor reduces damage from:
AP0 by 50%
AP1 by 33% and saves you from popping the ion shields from 4++ to 3++ to mitigate this damage
AP2 by 25% but lets you choose to use the shields to block 33% if you already have the 4++, or saves you from popping them if you have a 5++.
AP3, 4, 5, and 6 are unaffected.

This is really only useful against small arms fire or melee attacks, since it is unlikely that people will shoot auto cannons at your knights before they shoot things like las cannons at them, meaning you probably already popped the ion shields by the time they get around to shooting the low AP stuff at you.

So ultimately, the -1 to hit and 5++ knight is generally more durable (assuming BS3+ to hit, and over 18", of course), until it's time to pop the ion shields. Interestingly, though, you could have the -1 5++ knight in the back field and another knight with the 4++ moving closer and popping the ion shields, and both would be fairly durable. And you seem to want the 2+ armor on whichever knight you feel is going to be taking the most AP0-1 attacks. This could potentially be on a third knight, to sort of spread out the durability as much as possible.


Interestingly, i also did the math for BS4+ weapons, and the -1 to hit hurts them much more than it does BS3+, pushing the advantage towards the -1 5++ knight by quite a bit, so that a -1 to hit and a 4++ with ion shields is just as good as a 3++ against AP2 (3 with the 2+) or better, and without popping ion shields, and always just as good as the 3++ against AP0-1 (0-2 with the 2+ armor) without having to pop shields. Without Ion Shields the standard 4++ is slightly better than the standard -1 5++ against AP2 BS4+, but only by 11%.

So, depending on the BS of the weapons shooting you, the -1 is even more effective, especially on a knight that isn't expected to be popping ion shields very often, such as a 2nd shooty knight in a list with another more in-your-face knight.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 01:59:51


Post by: Malathrim


I'm new to Knights and just bought the Renegade box, which looks like it has the stuff to make a Valiant and Paladin, though I'm going to magnetize the crap out of both to make other variants!

For CP generation, I need another Knight for sure, but can't decide about which one.....I play Space Wolves and can make a pretty cheap battalion with them.

Given that my Wolves are nearly all dedicated to melee, should I get a Castellan, or Valiant? Or just another regular Knight to save some points? While good in combat, I'm kinda thinking that perhaps with the sons of Russ my Knights should be more of just durable big guns that can help out by dancing on enemy heads if needed. Then they can always fall back, shoot and charge again right?

Haven't delved too deeply into the IK codex yet but my Knights will primarily black and white to emulate my cat....with mech-cat heads.... what house would that be appropriate for? I only remember Mortan being mostly black in the pictures.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 03:39:33


Post by: Khadorstompy


Okay I'm going to have to eat some crow a bit here cause I tested the Armiger Helverins and they very much surprised me.

Ok First game vs Necrons.

I was fielding 9 Wargliaves and 1 Knight Preceptor w/ Ion Bulwark and Helm Dominus. Used House Krast as my Household.

My opponent was fielding 2 large units of destroyers, 9 wraiths, a Doomsday Ark, and a unit of Tomb Blades with some crypteks and a Destroyer lord sprinkled in.

For the majority of the game he stayed camped in Ruins and buildings out of reach of most of my knights melee. Game ended turn 5 with me down to 4 warglavies (2 full health and 2 pretty damaged) and him only having a Single Tomb Blade left. Realized real quick that I needed more CP. (Also I was over 100 point unspent in my list) Found the Helm and Rerolls for the Warglaives pretty useless. Realized that I needed a bit more ranged fire power to force units out of buildings where I can't melee them.

2nd game. Changed up my list a good bit dropped 4 Wargliaves for 3 Helverins and a Guard battalion for some cp. (Took grand strategist and Aquila spent 2 CP to give Perceptor Relic and Warlord trait.) Split the IK into 2 Super-heavy detachments with Perceptor and Helverins being house Taranis and the Warglaives remaining Krast.

He made very little changes to his list but got first turn this time. However he had deployed further back (Hammer and Anvil deployment) this time and didn't have his destroyers in good position to hurt my Knights much. Did a few points of damage to a couple of Armigers and moved his Wraiths up. My first and only turn saw the the Helverins buffed by helm and sticking close to the Perceptor completely destroying his big unit of Wraiths (Probably the perfect target for their Autocannons.) The Warglaives used their Meltas to drop a large unit of Destroyers. Also got to charge his tomb blades using the devastating reach ability. After his turn in which he honestly split his fire way too much. He still hadn't kill any of the knights though several where on their 3rd bracket and his remaining unit of wraiths were unable to do much he conceded.

So my thoughts are that Helverins are much better then I first thought but I'm sure if they are better to take or if it would be better to drop them and the Knight-P for some Lemans as fire support instead.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 04:16:41


Post by: Malathrim


I was very doubtful of the Helverins, just didn't seem really worth it for measly Str7/ap-1 guns, even at 4D3 shots. They are pretty cheap in points, and dollars actually, like beefier rifleDreads.

The extra 2" move is decent on them, useful for getting the Warglaives in deadly range.

Still, I do like the big stompy look of the Dominus class.

Preceptor has a cool gun, gonna have to make that for the weapons option pile.

Not being able to get up in ruins for so many units now is pretty annoying. Gonna have to think about that for many army lists now.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 04:39:11


Post by: Eldarain


For such a thematic game there should have been an option to attack the ruins enemies are cowering in inflicting damage by smashing amd collapsing the building around them.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 05:15:29


Post by: casvalremdeikun


 Eldarain wrote:
For such a thematic game there should have been an option to attack the ruins enemies are cowering in inflicting damage by smashing amd collapsing the building around them.
Yeah, it is quite stupid that ruins can't be destroyed. If I could wreck ruins, I would consider my Crimson Fists Chapter Tactics to be much better.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 10:09:11


Post by: COLD CASH


Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 10:22:50


Post by: Ideasweasel


Any eta on this knights FAQ?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 10:24:02


Post by: Kdash


COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.


My initial thoughts were to go with the Castellan, then, I realised that I’d be forced to go for a Mechanicus household as I think you 100% need the relic plasma.

Going to continue to test my Imperialis ideas a bit more first, and then I might see how they do as Mechanicus.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ideasweasel wrote:
Any eta on this knights FAQ?


Another week at least i expect. Usually follows the "2 weeks after release" rule.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 10:44:16


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Kdash wrote:
COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.


My initial thoughts were to go with the Castellan, then, I realised that I’d be forced to go for a Mechanicus household as I think you 100% need the relic plasma.

Going to continue to test my Imperialis ideas a bit more first, and then I might see how they do as Mechanicus.
It is almost as if Mechanicus is better than Imperialis in nearly every way...


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 10:49:28


Post by: Ice_can


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Kdash wrote:
COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.


My initial thoughts were to go with the Castellan, then, I realised that I’d be forced to go for a Mechanicus household as I think you 100% need the relic plasma.

Going to continue to test my Imperialis ideas a bit more first, and then I might see how they do as Mechanicus.
It is almost as if Mechanicus is better than Imperialis in nearly every way...


They did get some of the better strategums and synergies but I don't think its as clear cut if your not running Admech or a Castellen.
I'm going Imperialis mainly as I don't like the cog boys look and I don't want my knights praying to a
Spoiler:
Ctan


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 10:50:18


Post by: Kdash


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Kdash wrote:
COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.


My initial thoughts were to go with the Castellan, then, I realised that I’d be forced to go for a Mechanicus household as I think you 100% need the relic plasma.

Going to continue to test my Imperialis ideas a bit more first, and then I might see how they do as Mechanicus.
It is almost as if Mechanicus is better than Imperialis in nearly every way...


I feel like I can get more out of several Imperialis combinations, than I can with having 1 Knight come back to life on a 4+ or being able to spend a CP to act as though undamaged for a turn.

Don’t get me wrong, Mechanicus have some really nice things going for them – but there are certain combos I’m starting to look at building around that rely on Imperalis restricted options.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 12:40:06


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Imperialis knight are for supporting/synergising with other imperial detachments. Most of their relics and strategems benefit a mixed army well.

Mechanicus knights are for pure knight armies, or a single non-knight supprt detachment armies.

Mechanicus knights are set to survive/heal themselves, or be healed by their support forces.

Imperialis knights have no access to healing other than the garbage fortification(which does benefit the army the knight is supporting).


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 13:23:01


Post by: Karhedron


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Personally, I think a Gallant is good enough with its basic weaponery such that it doesn't need to further add on hierlooms like that paragon gauntlet. If you are already hitting stuff with a WS 2+ and you have access to a basic reaper chainsword and a thunderstrike Gauntlet, there aren't many things that would stand up to you in close combat when you charge them.

You are probably right about weapons although the Paragon Gauntlet is good if you know you are facing really heavy hitters on the other side (e.g. Deathguard).

Where the Gallant can use some help is durability as it will spend a lot of time in close combat where its Ion Shield will not protect it. "Sanctuary" or "Armour of the Sainted Ion" are really good on the Gallant as they protect it against enemy CC monsters such as Slamguinius, Hammernators or other melee-orientated LoWs.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 13:53:02


Post by: Mandragola


On the Imperial vs Admech debate, don’t forget that you can have both in one detachment, by taking a freeblade.

So if you want a Castellan for your Imperial force, grab yourself an Admech freeblade with Cawl’s wrath. It will still count as one of your three knights for your CPs and won’t stop your other knights from enjoying household traits. Roll for two benefits and pick the least bad burdens you can think of. Haunted by failure and impetus nature seem like they wouldn’t be too bad, though not if you needed to fall back.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 14:02:30


Post by: Kdash


Mandragola wrote:
On the Imperial vs Admech debate, don’t forget that you can have both in one detachment, by taking a freeblade.

So if you want a Castellan for your Imperial force, grab yourself an Admech freeblade with Cawl’s wrath. It will still count as one of your three knights for your CPs and won’t stop your other knights from enjoying household traits. Roll for two benefits and pick the least bad burdens you can think of. Haunted by failure and impetus nature seem like they wouldn’t be too bad, though not if you needed to fall back.


Interesting! I didn't even think about that option!


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 14:11:43


Post by: Kommissar Kel


 Karhedron wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Personally, I think a Gallant is good enough with its basic weaponery such that it doesn't need to further add on hierlooms like that paragon gauntlet. If you are already hitting stuff with a WS 2+ and you have access to a basic reaper chainsword and a thunderstrike Gauntlet, there aren't many things that would stand up to you in close combat when you charge them.

You are probably right about weapons although the Paragon Gauntlet is good if you know you are facing really heavy hitters on the other side (e.g. Deathguard).

Where the Gallant can use some help is durability as it will spend a lot of time in close combat where its Ion Shield will not protect it. "Sanctuary" or "Armour of the Sainted Ion" are really good on the Gallant as they protect it against enemy CC monsters such as Slamguinius, Hammernators or other melee-orientated LoWs.


Armour relic is bad; 2+ save is not very effective vs the stuff in melee that scares your knight.

Sanctuary is the way to go on a Gallant. Or, if your Questor Mechanicus, Mark of the Omnissiah; It will not Die on your melee beastie will keep him wrecking stuff longer than getting a 6+ save vs AP-4.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 14:50:29


Post by: Mandragola


 Kommissar Kel wrote:
 Karhedron wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Personally, I think a Gallant is good enough with its basic weaponery such that it doesn't need to further add on hierlooms like that paragon gauntlet. If you are already hitting stuff with a WS 2+ and you have access to a basic reaper chainsword and a thunderstrike Gauntlet, there aren't many things that would stand up to you in close combat when you charge them.

You are probably right about weapons although the Paragon Gauntlet is good if you know you are facing really heavy hitters on the other side (e.g. Deathguard).

Where the Gallant can use some help is durability as it will spend a lot of time in close combat where its Ion Shield will not protect it. "Sanctuary" or "Armour of the Sainted Ion" are really good on the Gallant as they protect it against enemy CC monsters such as Slamguinius, Hammernators or other melee-orientated LoWs.


Armour relic is bad; 2+ save is not very effective vs the stuff in melee that scares your knight.

Sanctuary is the way to go on a Gallant. Or, if your Questor Mechanicus, Mark of the Omnissiah; It will not Die on your melee beastie will keep him wrecking stuff longer than getting a 6+ save vs AP-4.

I disagree with this. In fact, few weapons have better than -3 AP, and many have less than that. So a 2+ armour save is nearly always as good as or better than a 5++ in melee. If someone's hitting you with a thunder hammer you'll still get a 5+ save if your base save is 2+, but you'd get a 4+ save against something like another knight kicking you. It also means you get a 4+ save against things like dark reapers.

The current meta has a lot of invulnerable saves, which incentivises people to go for guns without a high AP. The more that people switch towards ap-1 or -2, because anthing better than that is wasted vs DE, Custodes, and indeed knights themselves, the better a 2+ save becomes.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 14:59:49


Post by: Skhmt


Nevermind, answered my own question.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 15:06:36


Post by: tneva82


U02dah4 wrote:
Untill you come up against a hoard and do nothing


Dunno. 3 contemptators with twin autocannons made good job vs my orks. Those helverins don#t look worse than that. 48 shots kills lots of guys on small foot print and fast


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 15:28:22


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Guns aren't much of an issue for the gallant; he wants to, and should be, stuck in melee until dead. Most melee weapons that a knight is frightened by(d3 damage or more) are AP -3 or better; so that 2+ save is the same as the base sanctuary invulnerable. But, you can rotate the ion shields to get a 4++ in melee as well making sanctuary better than a 2+.

The Armour might be a good choice for a less melee dedicated knight for the reasons you have stated, but even then their are better options in the relics that you would want to take.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 15:44:35


Post by: U02dah4


Except a good opponent wont let that happen. When I last played against tgem i kept throwing small guard units at it which died or fell back letting me shoot it


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 16:02:27


Post by: Mandragola


I think the Gallant makes you a bit of a hostage to fortune, and your opponent’s choices. It’s an awful lot of points worth of model that has to get into cc to do anything, and your opponent knows that. It’s better in cc than other knights and cheaper, but not all that much better and not all that much cheaper.

Personally I prefer other questoris knights because you have more choices with them. You can go off and charge people, shooting them on the way. You can also hang back for a turn or two if there are scary things in their army you’d rather not fight up close. Shoot those things dead and then have your knights jump up and down on the rest of the army.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 16:17:18


Post by: drbored


IMO, Hawkshroud Household beats out the 1cp 'pretend you're at top bracket' stratagem every time. Imperialis, in my mind, is the way to go. The Valiant with Traitor's Pyre is so potent, and the Valiant wants to be up close in melta range, whereas the Castellan will likely never get to use its melta guns if you're playing right.

As for the Gallant... I'm not a huge fan. The Chainsword and stompy feet do enough damage in my games, unless I'm going up against another Knight list, in which case I'll stick the Paragon Gauntlet onto an Errant so it can shoot and soften up the target before getting into melee.

I'd only take a Gallant if I was also taking a Crusader, but the expense of the Crusader kind of negates the discount on the Gallant...


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 18:09:10


Post by: Malathrim


I like the looks of the Gallant because of the 2+ WS. That makes a big difference in combat killiness.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 19:59:16


Post by: Wulfey


Going from Gallant to Warden costs between 50-100 points. But you are also paying 1 attack and 1 weapon skill. You are also sinking more points into the same amount of wounds. The gallant also gets the full benefit from all the hosuehold and strategem and relic buffs. So that gun arm better be amazing for what it costs.

I would rate the opportunity cost of going from a gallant to a warden as too expensive to justify when I have a 108 point basilisk right on the shelf. Is the basilisk as good as a rapid fire battle cannon? Not quite, but it is 10 more wounds and doesn't subtract from my knight's melee ability. If I am taking a shooting knight, I think it is a castellon or crusader that hides in the back. The single gun arm knights can at best kill 1 MSU unit a turn. They aren't going to be killing hard targets.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 20:20:04


Post by: Kommissar Kel


You are just all over the place with the wrong.

Going from gallant to a single-gun knight costs: 46 points for TC, 62 for Avenger, and 74 for a RFBC.

Remember to subtract your melee arm(I kept the guantlet for the above numbers).

Yes you are losing 1A and -1WS, but you are gaining attacks first turn or any time you are not in melee.





Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 20:48:07


Post by: Wulfey


 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are just all over the place with the wrong.

Going from gallant to a single-gun knight costs: 46 points for TC, 62 for Avenger, and 74 for a RFBC.

Remember to subtract your melee arm(I kept the guantlet for the above numbers).

Yes you are losing 1A and -1WS, but you are gaining attacks first turn or any time you are not in melee.





74 points and -1A, -1WS for a RFBC
108 points, keep the 1A,1WS, +10 T6 wounds for a basilisk

The opportunity cost to get to a shooting knight is steep. I rate the stormspear on a gallant over any of the 1 gun variations.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 21:01:12


Post by: Mandragola


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are just all over the place with the wrong.

Going from gallant to a single-gun knight costs: 46 points for TC, 62 for Avenger, and 74 for a RFBC.

Remember to subtract your melee arm(I kept the guantlet for the above numbers).

Yes you are losing 1A and -1WS, but you are gaining attacks first turn or any time you are not in melee.





74 points and -1A, -1WS for a RFBC
108 points, keep the 1A,1WS, +10 T6 wounds for a basilisk

The opportunity cost to get to a shooting knight is steep. I rate the stormspear on a gallant over any of the 1 gun variations.

Paladins are probably the worst Questoris knight for their price. Even they obviously have significantly more firepower than a basilisk against most targets. For around the price you're quoting you could have a warden with a stormspear on it.

A warden loses 1 attack (or 3 with feet) and 1 point of WS. It gains 12 attacks with its gun, which are all but impossible to prevent, and a heavy flamer that it'll fire every now and then.

It is certainly true that you get more wounds per point with a gallant. But going closer to the enemy usually means that you take more damage as well, so those wounds aren't worth as much. People rapid fire their plasma guns at you, their meltas get in range, they smite you and sometimes people like Guilliman appear and cut your knight right in half.

There's also a CP cost to a Gallant, and other opportunity costs. You want it to use full tilt, and probably landstrider too. So that's used up a warlord trait. You might well want to give it a relic. Maybe you've also picked a house that gets it across the board faster, or makes it hit harder in cc - which means you haven't picked a house like Taranis to make all of your knights live longer. All of these are costs.

Something like a warden needs far less support than that. It can happily kill things on turn 1 with its guns and then on turn 2 it can charge in and start stamping on things. It won't do this as effectively as the Gallant, but actually it'll usually get the job done. And if it sees something scary like Bobby G skulking in amongst a bunch of razorbacks it can hang back and shoot things up with its gatling gun for a while.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 22:07:20


Post by: Karhedron


COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.

I am not completely sold on the Dominus class Knights yet. Both seem like they need the relic version of their weapons to be truly threatening which gives up the opportunity to take other relics. The outrageous 3CP cost of Rotate Ion Shields is also a major downer.

Also there is an odd misfit between their weapons and stats. The Castellan has the cost of 4 melta guns built in an otherwise long ranged weapon platform. The Valiant on the other hand wants to get up close but unlike most other Knights, is only WS4+.

Maybe I am underestimating their destructive potential but I think I will stick to a mix of Questoris and Armigers with a small allied contingent for CP generation.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 22:09:20


Post by: Malathrim


I really like how the Knights can back out of melee, shoot and/or charge though, and can move over infantry. Surrounding them with horde infantry won't keep them in combat unless it's a deep horde.

It is interesting about that built in melta gun cost. I am wondering if it will be Chapter Approved altered to be more expensive...when does the next Chapter Approved come out?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/15 22:22:33


Post by: jcd386


 Malathrim wrote:
I really like how the Knights can back out of melee, shoot and/or charge though, and can move over infantry. Surrounding them with horde infantry won't keep them in combat unless it's a deep horde.

It is interesting about that built in melta gun cost. I am wondering if it will be Chapter Approved altered to be more expensive...when does the next Chapter Approved come out?


That doubtful. The only reason it's built in is because you can't switch them out for anything. You're still paying for them as a part of the base model.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/16 00:57:16


Post by: U02dah4


Also it can't move over infantry unless it is falling back so your opponent can just move small units in its path in there turn and it can only move up to them.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/16 13:04:17


Post by: Crimson


Mandragola wrote:

I disagree with this. In fact, few weapons have better than -3 AP, and many have less than that. So a 2+ armour save is nearly always as good as or better than a 5++ in melee. If someone's hitting you with a thunder hammer you'll still get a 5+ save if your base save is 2+, but you'd get a 4+ save against something like another knight kicking you. It also means you get a 4+ save against things like dark reapers.

The current meta has a lot of invulnerable saves, which incentivises people to go for guns without a high AP. The more that people switch towards ap-1 or -2, because anthing better than that is wasted vs DE, Custodes, and indeed knights themselves, the better a 2+ save becomes.

It is decent I agree with that. However, with the melee shield you can boost your invulnerable to 4+ with a stratagem.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/16 14:23:53


Post by: Danny slag


Ice_can wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Kdash wrote:
COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.


My initial thoughts were to go with the Castellan, then, I realised that I’d be forced to go for a Mechanicus household as I think you 100% need the relic plasma.

Going to continue to test my Imperialis ideas a bit more first, and then I might see how they do as Mechanicus.
It is almost as if Mechanicus is better than Imperialis in nearly every way...


They did get some of the better strategums and synergies but I don't think its as clear cut if your not running Admech or a Castellen.
I'm going Imperialis mainly as I don't like the cog boys look and I don't want my knights praying to a
Spoiler:
Ctan


I agree, outside of taking the castellen I don't think it's so cut and dry. I still think Hawkshrowd and Morton are incredibly good.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/16 15:38:44


Post by: Kommissar Kel


That is the weird juxtaposition with Questor Imperialis: it jas some very decent houshold traits and relics, but gains less in support from Imperial forces(although it does have a few supporting relics and strategems)

In order to get the most use from Imperialis wargear/strats you need a large main force of other Imperials and then you lose out on the household traditions.

That and the lack of any survivability to questor Imperialis(outside healing, FNP, or IWND) is a hige decision maker in my choice of household.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/16 22:51:53


Post by: luke1705


 Karhedron wrote:
COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.

I am not completely sold on the Dominus class Knights yet. Both seem like they need the relic version of their weapons to be truly threatening which gives up the opportunity to take other relics. The outrageous 3CP cost of Rotate Ion Shields is also a major downer.

Also there is an odd misfit between their weapons and stats. The Castellan has the cost of 4 melta guns built in an otherwise long ranged weapon platform. The Valiant on the other hand wants to get up close but unlike most other Knights, is only WS4+.

Maybe I am underestimating their destructive potential but I think I will stick to a mix of Questoris and Armigers with a small allied contingent for CP generation.


Why can't the Castellan get up close and personal? Not happening on turn 1 obviously but turn 2 I don't see a whole ton of missions where he isn't firing his melta vs SOMETHING, or having an enormous area of denial bubble.

Sure he doesn't want to tango in CC, but neither does the valiant.

Also I don't see why you can't take an allied contingent for CP generation just because you take a big knight. I know it's a lot of points but I'm going to try out a list on Monday with a Castellan, an IG brigade, and probably a supreme command of shield captain jet bikes. I'll likely transition that supreme command over to a BA battalion, but I need a few more scouts to make that happen


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/16 23:13:38


Post by: Kommissar Kel


It is a knee-jerk assumption based on gun ranges. No knight, other than the Gallant(and Valiant due to Harpoon range), ever want to be within 12".

Yes, the Castellan can function fine at short range; you just don't want him in combat and he can function at long range just fine.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 00:11:30


Post by: U02dah4


Every knight does - against the right unit.

Take a crusader sure you don't want it up against a CC unit of thunder hammers but If you ignore its feat your ignoreing a fair portion of damage and CC vs a guard squad or a vanguard/ranger squad doesn't put your night at risk and can easily finish off that squad

Plus a paragon gauntletting warden isnt much worse than a gallant



Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 03:53:55


Post by: raverrn


Yeah, with the ability to fire on the move and fire if engaged you're wasting an awful lot of potential in not taking your 12 stomps every turn.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 04:24:07


Post by: tneva82


drbored wrote:
IMO, Hawkshroud Household beats out the 1cp 'pretend you're at top bracket' stratagem every time. Imperialis, in my mind, is the way to go. The Valiant with Traitor's Pyre is so potent, and the Valiant wants to be up close in melta range, whereas the Castellan will likely never get to use its melta guns if you're playing right.

As for the Gallant... I'm not a huge fan. The Chainsword and stompy feet do enough damage in my games, unless I'm going up against another Knight list, in which case I'll stick the Paragon Gauntlet onto an Errant so it can shoot and soften up the target before getting into melee.

I'd only take a Gallant if I was also taking a Crusader, but the expense of the Crusader kind of negates the discount on the Gallant...


Playing right with castellan means moving, approaching, using all guns. If you sit backfar with it you are misusing it.

Knights tend to either be over half wounds or like 2-3 wounds left. That's why i'm not sold on hawkshroud. That's not a new trait for low's yet not really seen on competive lists


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Karhedron wrote:
COLD CASH wrote:
Seems no one has tried the castellan! Im more drawn to that than the valiant.

I am not completely sold on the Dominus class Knights yet. Both seem like they need the relic version of their weapons to be truly threatening which gives up the opportunity to take other relics. The outrageous 3CP cost of Rotate Ion Shields is also a major downer.

Also there is an odd misfit between their weapons and stats. The Castellan has the cost of 4 melta guns built in an otherwise long ranged weapon platform. The Valiant on the other hand wants to get up close but unlike most other Knights, is only WS4+.

Maybe I am underestimating their destructive potential but I think I will stick to a mix of Questoris and Armigers with a small allied contingent for CP generation.


Long range means you start shooting from word go(unlike valiant). But you should still move forward. Knights are too few to waste one model sitting back. Thus you move forward thus getting melta guns to range.

Treat range as bonus, not to decide how to use. Main benefit is to allow to hurt enemy from turn 1 onwara rather than say valiant or gallant


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 08:53:36


Post by: Ordana


10" move and 18" range. A Valiant will likely still be shooting turn 1.
Especially if its Raven and can advance and shoot.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 09:01:45


Post by: Ragweek


 Ordana wrote:
10" move and 18" range. A Valiant will likely still be shooting turn 1.
Especially if its Raven and can advance and shoot.


What range is the harpoon? I guess you may be lucky and get to shoot it at some bubble wrap at -1 To hit with it's only shot?

The super Flamer is ok but 600 points to kill 10 guardsmen?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 10:05:22


Post by: tneva82


 Ordana wrote:
10" move and 18" range. A Valiant will likely still be shooting turn 1.
Especially if its Raven and can advance and shoot.


Only if opponent lets you. You do know opponent doesn#t have to deploy right in front of it don't you? He knows how far that thing threatens so at most he puts some cheap chaff for target if he wants to


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 10:38:44


Post by: Karhedron


 Crimson wrote:

However, with the melee shield you can boost your invulnerable to 4+ with a stratagem.

Sadly you cannot. "Sanctuary" specifically gives you a 5++ in close combat, it does not say you can use your Ion Shield in close combat (despite what the fluff says). This means that RAW, "Ion Bulwark" and "Rotate Ion Shields" do not boost your invulnerable save in close combat because the save is specifically provided by "Sanctuary", not by your Ion Shield. :(


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 10:50:33


Post by: Crazyterran


Ion Bulwark doesnt increase your save, it sets your ion shield save to 4++.

Only really matters when you include FW knights, but...

Speaking of which, what do you guys think of this 1750 list:

Questor Mechanicus: House Krast

Atrapos: Warlord, Landstrider
Gallant: Exalted Court, Sanctuary, Ion Bulwark
Warden: Fist, Paragon Gauntlet, Character
Warden: Reaper Chainsword

-1736

Once the FW knights get FaQd, of course.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 10:54:50


Post by: U02dah4


Having just played that list in an ITC game taranis seems stronger


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Karhedron wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

However, with the melee shield you can boost your invulnerable to 4+ with a stratagem.

Sadly you cannot. "Sanctuary" specifically gives you a 5++ in close combat, it does not say you can use your Ion Shield in close combat (despite what the fluff says). This means that RAW, "Ion Bulwark" and "Rotate Ion Shields" do not boost your invulnerable save in close combat because the save is specifically provided by "Sanctuary", not by your Ion Shield. :(


Rotate ion shields does raw the only requirent is the model has an invul save


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 12:34:45


Post by: Cephalobeard


 Crazyterran wrote:
Ion Bulwark doesnt increase your save, it sets your ion shield save to 4++.

Only really matters when you include FW knights, but...

Speaking of which, what do you guys think of this 1750 list:

Questor Mechanicus: House Krast

Atrapos: Warlord, Landstrider
Gallant: Exalted Court, Sanctuary, Ion Bulwark
Warden: Fist, Paragon Gauntlet, Character
Warden: Reaper Chainsword

-1736

Once the FW knights get FaQd, of course.


Are you implying the 4++ doesn't work w/ FW Knights? It's early, I could be reading wrong.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 12:44:04


Post by: Crazyterran


I was more thinking of the Atrapos and two mechanicum knights when I said that since they come with a 4++. Guess the Castigator, Acheron and Lancer could use it.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 14:59:48


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Ragweek wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
10" move and 18" range. A Valiant will likely still be shooting turn 1.
Especially if its Raven and can advance and shoot.


What range is the harpoon? I guess you may be lucky and get to shoot it at some bubble wrap at -1 To hit with it's only shot?

The super Flamer is ok but 600 points to kill 10 guardsmen?


12".

It is heavy 1; not one shot only, so you can fire it every turn you are in range.

Raven household trait negates advance and fire penalties.

Karhedron: sanctuary is a set 5+ invulerable in melee; but Rotate Ion Shields temporarily improves all invulnerable saves by 1. The Admech version is a little better, just adding 1 to the roll.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 15:00:34


Post by: ragnorack1


Wondering if instead of taking the usual cheap battalion for Co whether an IG out rider detachment of hell hounds with a tank commander warlord with kurovs aquilla and grand strategist would be worth while. Lacks the raw amount of cp but your cp regent is on a tougher platform and the hell hounds can keep up with the knights and offer some anti-horde.
At 2k you could have 3 crusaders 1 executioner and 4 hell hounds though I'm tempted to swap 1 hell hound for a couple of sentinel power lifters. Theme the list as a mechanised long range patrol with lots of extra kit on the tanks and have the sentinels as maintenance/loading equipment for the knights and from a game play perspective they can use crush them! To support a full tilting knight in a first turn charge if opponents don't deploy conservatively.
Just to check though, could grand strategist work when spending cp on warlord traits and relics, fairly sure it does as warlord should be deployed on table before using Pre-game strategies but wanted to be sure.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 15:03:12


Post by: JNAProductions


Except you can target a Tank Commander freely. You cannot target a Company Commander in the same way.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 15:18:01


Post by: Mandragola


ragnorack1 wrote:
Wondering if instead of taking the usual cheap battalion for Co whether an IG out rider detachment of hell hounds with a tank commander warlord with kurovs aquilla and grand strategist would be worth while. Lacks the raw amount of cp but your cp regent is on a tougher platform and the hell hounds can keep up with the knights and offer some anti-horde.
At 2k you could have 3 crusaders 1 executioner and 4 hell hounds though I'm tempted to swap 1 hell hound for a couple of sentinel power lifters. Theme the list as a mechanised long range patrol with lots of extra kit on the tanks and have the sentinels as maintenance/loading equipment for the knights and from a game play perspective they can use crush them! To support a full tilting knight in a first turn charge if opponents don't deploy conservatively.
Just to check though, could grand strategist work when spending cp on warlord traits and relics, fairly sure it does as warlord should be deployed on table before using Pre-game strategies but wanted to be sure.

If you want CPs you want a detachment that gives 5 of them, not 1.

That said, a tank commander is a decent unit. If you can fit one in as your HQ in a battalion then that's fine. Just give your relic and warlord trait to a company commander and have him hide somewhere.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 15:20:30


Post by: ragnorack1


 JNAProductions wrote:
Except you can target a Tank Commander freely. You cannot target a Company Commander in the same way.


Good point, guess the only advantage is it over saturates targets for the opponents antitank weapons, and maybe a bit more fire power in range first turn. But probably not enough to balance the disadvantages.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 15:28:23


Post by: Cephalobeard


How are we feeling about the Preceptor?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 15:36:34


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


What, if anything, is wrong with house Vulkar's warlord trait of only being wounded on a 4+ regardless if the weapon has a higher Str than the Knight's T? It seems to me that that trait + the shroud would make a very tough nut to crack? Add in ion shields and it should give people knightmares.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 16:03:23


Post by: Mandragola


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What, if anything, is wrong with house Vulkar's warlord trait of only being wounded on a 4+ regardless if the weapon has a higher Str than the Knight's T? It seems to me that that trait + the shroud would make a very tough nut to crack? Add in ion shields and it should give people knightmares.

Basically, most guns already need at least a 4+ to hurt a knight. Things like a 4++, the Mortan -1 to hit and the 2+ armour save are all better. And being Taranis on its own probably does more, without costing you a warlord trait or anything. So if you want to be tough, be Taranis and take the 4++ warlord trait and the 2+ armour save on someone else.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 17:06:33


Post by: jeffersonian000


 Cephalobeard wrote:
How are we feeling about the Preceptor?

Love it. Very strong addition to the Questoris line of Knights, especially if you want to run Armigers. On it’s own the duel mode main weapon is handy, while the ability to upgrade the Stubber to a Multi-Laser should be extended to all Knights, it’s worth it.

SJ


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 18:21:53


Post by: Mandragola


 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
How are we feeling about the Preceptor?

Love it. Very strong addition to the Questoris line of Knights, especially if you want to run Armigers. On it’s own the duel mode main weapon is handy, while the ability to upgrade the Stubber to a Multi-Laser should be extended to all Knights, it’s worth it.

SJ

They seem ok. I expect the benefits to armigers are largely lost when you take the knight’s own weak gun into account for comparison. I like wardens, crusaders and errants out of the Questoris knights - the latter because they are cheap.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 18:24:41


Post by: Kdash


Now they've been around a little, how are you guys finding Knight lists?

I'm starting to get torn between running a Valiant and 2 Knights, vs 4 Knights - both with guard battalions for added cp.

I've also not left home without spending 6CP on the 3 Knights for 3 WL traits and 3 relics. I don't know why, but i just feel like i'm missing something if i don't


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 18:34:59


Post by: Ice_can


To be honest I'm not sold on the dominus class, they look good and can bring some insane firepower, but they are such an obvious target they tie up all the survivability bonuses, leaving your other knight's exposed where as with questorus class you can spread those bonuses around making your opponents choice of target much more challenging.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 19:03:44


Post by: Cephalobeard


I'm considering a 1750 List with a Preceptor and 6 Armigers. With the Omnissiah mask, Landstrider WT and running them all as Taranis, that's a lot of high toughness, highly accurate mobile firebase.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 19:09:26


Post by: greyknight12


Kdash wrote:
Now they've been around a little, how are you guys finding Knight lists?

I'm starting to get torn between running a Valiant and 2 Knights, vs 4 Knights - both with guard battalions for added cp.

I've also not left home without spending 6CP on the 3 Knights for 3 WL traits and 3 relics. I don't know why, but i just feel like i'm missing something if i don't

How many points are you running? Cause at 2K, you can comfortably take 5 Knights, or 4 if one is a valiant/castellan. I'm personally not convinced that 3+1 Dominus is better than 5 Questoris, nor that the CP from a guard battalion is worth sacrificing an entire extra knight for. You start the game with 6 CP, which is enough to grab an extra relic and have some left over for stratagems throughout the game.

Look at it this way: Rotate ion shields costs 1/3 CP and reduces the damage taken by a single knight by 25% assuming an equal amount of shooting goes into that knight (no guarantee that it does). Going from 4 to 5 knights increases the survivability of your entire army by 25% for the whole game starting turn 1, and effectively costs 5 CP cause you didn't bring guardsmen.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 19:14:30


Post by: casvalremdeikun


I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable and have a good amount shooting, even without the relic.

I really wish Mortan had more cohesion. They want to be up close, but their Warlord Trait wants them far away. And their Stratagem is shooty too. Still, anything that charges my backfield might be in for a bit of a surprise.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 19:44:00


Post by: Ideasweasel


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Add in ion shields and it should give people knightmares.




I’m wondering if that shot over peoples heads. As a dad I appreciate these puns. Carry on sir


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 19:54:26


Post by: Kdash


 greyknight12 wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Now they've been around a little, how are you guys finding Knight lists?

I'm starting to get torn between running a Valiant and 2 Knights, vs 4 Knights - both with guard battalions for added cp.

I've also not left home without spending 6CP on the 3 Knights for 3 WL traits and 3 relics. I don't know why, but i just feel like i'm missing something if i don't

How many points are you running? Cause at 2K, you can comfortably take 5 Knights, or 4 if one is a valiant/castellan. I'm personally not convinced that 3+1 Dominus is better than 5 Questoris, nor that the CP from a guard battalion is worth sacrificing an entire extra knight for. You start the game with 6 CP, which is enough to grab an extra relic and have some left over for stratagems throughout the game.

Look at it this way: Rotate ion shields costs 1/3 CP and reduces the damage taken by a single knight by 25% assuming an equal amount of shooting goes into that knight (no guarantee that it does). Going from 4 to 5 knights increases the survivability of your entire army by 25% for the whole game starting turn 1, and effectively costs 5 CP cause you didn't bring guardsmen.


So, essentially at 2k, the 3 Knights comes in around 1400-1500 points. 4 Knights 1600-1700. I then use the remaining points for battalions (currently).

Not many points when you go from a Valiant, Gallant and Crusader into 2 Gallants, a Crusader and a Warden/Errant. 1 of each Crusader, Errant, Warden and Gallant comes to 1617 points - but i'm not convinced it would perform considerably better than a Valiant, Crusader and Gallant for 1421 points.

4 Knights, is, more survivable, but, i feel you become very very restricted in what you can do. The moment you use Full Tilt on a Gallant, and Rotate Ion Shields once, most of your CP has gone, unless you're running Guard and aren't running multiple WLs and relics.

Maybe i'm just falling into a trap in thinking 3 relics and warlord traits is the way to go and maybe just running 2 is better. But, my biggest concern is really around my feeling that an extra Knight doesn't always mean an increase in damage output or additional mission control.



Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 20:19:23


Post by: AstraVlad


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable

Should, but in real life will not. LCs will make you roll 5+ (the same invulnerable save you have either way), melaguns/ multimeltas/ thermal cannons -- say "hello" to 5++, plasmaguns -- 5+ again, thunderhammerss -- 5+, dark lances -- 5++, bright lances -- 5++, Daemon Princes with axe -- 5+, etc, etc. There are a LOTS of weapons in the game which can make your life miserable if you will ever rely on 2+ save without a decent invulnerable one. And we do not even mention mortal wounds...

So I would say that if you aim for maximum survivability then go for House Taranis and take Sanctuary. With Rotate Ion Shields it will give you 4++ against all attacks and ability to ignore wounds at 6+.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 20:35:42


Post by: Kdash


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable and have a good amount shooting, even without the relic.

I really wish Mortan had more cohesion. They want to be up close, but their Warlord Trait wants them far away. And their Stratagem is shooty too. Still, anything that charges my backfield might be in for a bit of a surprise.


Mortan to me is the "back to front" setup idea.

Essentially, you have a shooty, hard to hit Knight at the back and then a big frontline. The only problem really, is that the "main" frontline is going to be Gallants most of the time, and they won't really benefit from the household trait. However, if you afford the frontline to be something else, then, it does help.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 21:22:56


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Kdash wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable and have a good amount shooting, even without the relic.

I really wish Mortan had more cohesion. They want to be up close, but their Warlord Trait wants them far away. And their Stratagem is shooty too. Still, anything that charges my backfield might be in for a bit of a surprise.


Mortan to me is the "back to front" setup idea.

Essentially, you have a shooty, hard to hit Knight at the back and then a big frontline. The only problem really, is that the "main" frontline is going to be Gallants most of the time, and they won't really benefit from the household trait. However, if you afford the frontline to be something else, then, it does help.
Gallants will benefit quite well from the trait. The trait cancels out the to-hit penalty of the Thunderstrike Gauntlet. They have zero reason to use their Chainsword. It also allows me to put the Paragon Gauntlet on a Warden or Errant. In my case, I have two Frontline Knights that hit on 2s with their Thunderstrike Gauntlets. That allows them to wreck just about anything. Sure, my Gallant isn't going to be stomping any better on hordes, but my Warden and Crusader will.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 21:42:15


Post by: Mandragola


I don’t think you run gallants as mortan, as the +1 to hit is wasted. But a castellan without Cawl’s wrath feels a bit weak. A taranis one with Cawl’s wrath and ion bulwark feels like a much tougher and shootier knight. A raven one with their stratagem is even more dangerous.

I’d consider running three crusaders for mortan, with Warglaives heading forward. Spread ion bulwark, -1 to hit and the 2+ armour across the knights, so all are tougher.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/17 21:46:28


Post by: buddha


Anyone finding the increase in survivability from Taranis worth it over the Raven trait? Caught between thise two at the moment.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 05:03:40


Post by: Eldarain


With the number of wounds on these things it's really tempting. The Raven Strategem for the Castellan tips it that way for me.

Maybe all Taranis with a Freeblade Raven Castellan would be worth trying.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 05:57:16


Post by: drbored


I've been making most of my lists with Hawkshroud as the household. Getting access to the Overwatch stratagem is excellent with things like Crusaders and Valiants if they're in range. I like the Valiant a lot. Taking the Traitor's Pyre is just so excellent. I can wipe out even big tanks just by getting lots of shots to hit and wound, and it shuts down a lot of flyer/eldar shenanigans right away.

As for other knights, I tend to go with more Crusaders. The volume of fire they can pump out is devastating!


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 06:25:21


Post by: tneva82


Getting my order today(last week I was in summer cottage about 500km away from FLG I had preordered them ). Won't get anything built for tomorrow in time but maybe I can get castellan built for week later. Not sure about renegade contents as I'm not sure do I have magnets to build those...Those might have to wait for august as I'll be heading to Japan in less than 3 weeks.

Anyway for next week was thus planning to use following knight/ig list:

castellan(2xsiegebreakers, 1xmissile battery)
crusader
errant

Castellan to get me 3rd big knight for cp's plus super vehicle/monster killer. Errant as I only have 2 questor chassis assembled and errant is glued up. One full version fully magnetized+contents of renegade unassembled.

No small knights as I wanted some CP allies so:

Cadian battallion:

2xcompany commander(grand strategist+kurov aquilla. Maybe split them up?)
3xinfantry squad(all have plasma gun, 1 has heavy bolter)
3xmortar

so far fairly standard CP battery though some upgrades to give them some punch. Heavy bolter as I had 10 pts to spare.

Militarum tempestrum(whatever) battallion
2xtempestor prime(rod)

3x5 squads(2 have 2 plasma, one has 1 volley gun)
2xcommand squads(1 has 4 plasma, 1 has 4 volley gun)

These will come turn 2-3 as needed. Objective grabbers etc to give me reach for long distance.

Total 16CP. Likely 6 CP goes to warlord and relics. Cawl's wrath and 4++ for castellan at least. Look this week more of others. Leaves 10CP with recovery+nicking away so at least knights should have plenty of CP to use.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 07:54:18


Post by: Kdash


tneva82 wrote:
Getting my order today(last week I was in summer cottage about 500km away from FLG I had preordered them ). Won't get anything built for tomorrow in time but maybe I can get castellan built for week later. Not sure about renegade contents as I'm not sure do I have magnets to build those...Those might have to wait for august as I'll be heading to Japan in less than 3 weeks.

Anyway for next week was thus planning to use following knight/ig list:

castellan(2xsiegebreakers, 1xmissile battery)
crusader
errant

Castellan to get me 3rd big knight for cp's plus super vehicle/monster killer. Errant as I only have 2 questor chassis assembled and errant is glued up. One full version fully magnetized+contents of renegade unassembled.

No small knights as I wanted some CP allies so:

Cadian battallion:

2xcompany commander(grand strategist+kurov aquilla. Maybe split them up?)
3xinfantry squad(all have plasma gun, 1 has heavy bolter)
3xmortar

so far fairly standard CP battery though some upgrades to give them some punch. Heavy bolter as I had 10 pts to spare.

Militarum tempestrum(whatever) battallion
2xtempestor prime(rod)

3x5 squads(2 have 2 plasma, one has 1 volley gun)
2xcommand squads(1 has 4 plasma, 1 has 4 volley gun)

These will come turn 2-3 as needed. Objective grabbers etc to give me reach for long distance.

Total 16CP. Likely 6 CP goes to warlord and relics. Cawl's wrath and 4++ for castellan at least. Look this week more of others. Leaves 10CP with recovery+nicking away so at least knights should have plenty of CP to use.


I think you're like 207 points over 2000 with that list though :/

I do have something similar in mind for my current list (though i keep going "what if i do this instead?" - driving me nuts), but i keep going back to this -

Spoiler:

Super Heavy Detachment - Mortan
Crusader – Themal Cannon, Gatling Cannon, Ironstorm pod, Stubber. WL (Mortan -1 to hit) relic Banner
Valiant – 2 twin seigebreakers, 2 missiles. Trait 4++, relic Traitors Pyre
Gallant – Trait Landstrider, relic 2+ armour save.

Guard Battalion – Vallhalan (maybe Vostroyan, maybe Armageddon, maybe Tallarn)
Company Commander – Bolter, relic Aquilia
Lord Commissar – Bolt pistol, power sword
1x 30 Conscripts
2x infantry squad

Guard Battalion – Scions
Tempestor Prime – rod
Primaris Psyker - +1 to save power
2x Scions – 2 Plasma gun, 1 Plasma pistol
1x Scion – 2 Volley gun, 1 Plasma pistol


The 16 CP base would mean I start the game with 9CP. (-7 for 2 extra traits and relics for Knights and 1 for Aquila)
Essentially gives me ld 10 Conscripts and 7 obsec units.
I’ve been toying with dropping the Valiant for either 4 normal Knights or 3 Knights and 2 Armigers, but, I keep coming up against either a lack of CP or not being 100% sure on the additional Knights/Armigers out damaging/scoring/surviving what I have listed above.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 08:02:56


Post by: tneva82


Kdash wrote:

I think you're like 207 points over 2000 with that list though :/


Huh? Right forgot it did not have scion command squads. Been making lots of lists with my full scion battallion.

Undecided on what house. Mechanicum since I want to use them for the canticles time to time but which one. Raven, 6+++ or the one that gives rerolls against closest targets are my current go-to's. 6+++ is nice amount of extra wounds plus that troll come back alive strategem just for face of opponent, rerolls always nice though only closest is bit of bummer but also has 6=2 hits strategem which can be nice(wonder how that works with the relic gatling gun?). For stand back&shoot the advance move bonus from raven isn't that hot but strategem is pretty good.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 08:16:14


Post by: ph34r


 Eldarain wrote:
With the number of wounds on these things it's really tempting. The Raven Strategem for the Castellan tips it that way for me.

Maybe all Taranis with a Freeblade Raven Castellan would be worth trying.
I thought <FREEBLADE> replaces <HOUSEHOLD> so you could not be Freeblade Raven.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 08:53:36


Post by: tneva82


Think he refers to having freeblade knight in taranis detachment. You have one(sad) freeblade max per detachment so you have tarantis detachment with one of them possibly being freeblade instead


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 10:46:15


Post by: Crimson


 Karhedron wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

However, with the melee shield you can boost your invulnerable to 4+ with a stratagem.

Sadly you cannot. "Sanctuary" specifically gives you a 5++ in close combat, it does not say you can use your Ion Shield in close combat (despite what the fluff says). This means that RAW, "Ion Bulwark" and "Rotate Ion Shields" do not boost your invulnerable save in close combat because the save is specifically provided by "Sanctuary", not by your Ion Shield. :(

Rotate Ion Shields does not care for the origin of the save and can be used in any phase. It does work.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 10:49:44


Post by: Mandragola


No, he wanted to use the House Raven stratagem. A freeblade definitely can't do that.

You could have a Taranis (or whoever) Lance and an auxiliary Raven knight if you wanted. That ought to be doable from 1750 points and up. You could have a lance with a Gallant and two Errants, then an auxiliary Castellan from House Raven. It wouldn't start out as a character so you'd have to spend at least 1 of your 6 CPs on Cawl's Wrath, then of course use them on the stratagem itself. At 2k it looks a lot more viable.

Honestly I think my advice would instead be to play House Raven, if you want their stratagem. Take a Valiant with landstrider and a Castellan, and any 3rd knight you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, having given this some thought I think you shouldn’t add a Raven knight – or any other kind – to a Taranis force. You’d be presenting your opponent with a more expensive, more dangerous, less tough target than the rest of your army. He’ll focus everything he has on taking it down.

Instead you could go all-raven, and build a highly aggressive army that saturates the board with threats (so for instance a Valiant and Questoris storming forward while a Castellan uses the stratagem and Cawl’s Wrath to rain death on things). Alternatively you could build a Taranis force that’s all about maximising the amount of wounds you have on the board, designed to outlive your opponent’s army.

This also feeds into what allies you bring. Guard infantry would probably live longer against the Raven army, because your opponent will be doing everything he can to stop knights rampaging across his army. But with Taranis they would be seriously incentivised to switch their focus away from the knights and towards any unfortunate infantry who happened to be nearby – as that’s the only easy way to get kill points and maelstrom objectives that require unit kills.

Plus of course Raven are a bit more CP-hungry they want to use their stratagem each turn, and often stuff like Full Tilt, which is ok but not essential for Taranis. So not only are raven allies likely to be a bit more survivable, they are also a bit more necessary.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 12:08:45


Post by: grouchoben


"No, he wanted to use the House Raven stratagem. A freeblade definitely can't do that."

Why? Under freeblade it clearly states that you forego a Household Tradition if a Freeblade. It does not say anything about Strats.

Under Household Tradition, it only gives the various benefits from the houses, eg Terryn's advance/charge buff.

Am I missing something?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 12:17:11


Post by: tneva82


 grouchoben wrote:
"No, he wanted to use the House Raven stratagem. A freeblade definitely can't do that."

Why? Under freeblade it clearly states that you forego a Household Tradition if a Freeblade. It does not say anything about Strats.

Under Household Tradition, it only gives the various benefits from the houses, eg Terryn's advance/charge buff.

Am I missing something?


If you don't have <Raven> keyword(because you went for<Freeblade> ) it wouldn't fit.

Or in otherwords. You have detachment A that's raven and detachment B that's non-raven. You claiming because you have Raven detachment you can use that strategem for non-raven knights?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 12:17:54


Post by: grouchoben


If you do lose strats and traits why would you ever take a freeblade at all? Accessing Terryn's 'attack twice' strat on a Gallant, for example, beats the snot out of the dubious benefit of 1 chosen gift and 2 chosen burdens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah yes, I see, thanks. I'd missed the section on p90 about keyword replacement.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 12:24:20


Post by: Mandragola


 grouchoben wrote:
If you do lose strats and traits why would you ever take a freeblade at all? Accessing Terryn's 'attack twice' strat on a Gallant, for example, beats the snot out of the dubious benefit of 1 chosen gift and 2 chosen burdens.

I haven't seen anyone talking about using the Terryn stratagem, though I might have suggested using an auxiliary Terryn Gallant.

Freeblades are imperial or mech, but do not come from houses. So they can use the imperial and mech stratagems and relics. A reason to take a freeblade is therefore to have Cawl's Wrath in an otherwise Imperial lance, or Traitor's Pyre in a Mech one. There are also stratagems like the fight when you die thing for Imperial or the fight as if on full wounds thing for Mech.

The Freeblade still counts as one of your three knights for the lance and it doesn't prevent other knights from getting household benefits. And note that actually you aren't allowed to have knights from two different households in a single Lance, but you are allowed to add in freeblades.

Qualities and Burdens are ok. Mainly they are fun, but they do actually do stuff.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 12:44:39


Post by: grouchoben


Great point on the Cawl's Wrath example; I think I'm beginning to understand the role Freeblade plays.

Taking a single knight in a SH Aux detachment is rarely suited to being a Freeblade, then. Mortan for a shooty knight, or Terryn for a Gallant, Vulker's adamantium knight for an Atropos, who doesn't need Ion Bulwark, etc. Each unlock powerful traits and strats that you othewise trade in for the limited benefits of a quality + 2 burdens.

Where Freeblade is actually useful is to take Pyre or Wrath 'out of faction' in a SH Detachment.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 13:03:37


Post by: Mandragola


That’s certainly one way round things. On the other hand, an auxiliary freeblade knight does get qualities and burdens, while a household one doesn’t get their house tradition. You’d be trading the option of house-specific stuff that costs CPs for a flat bonus that doesn’t. Whether that was the right choice might well depend on the knight in question.

So I wouldn’t run an auxiliary Taranis knight, because the household tradition is what makes them good. Their warlord trait and relic are average at best, and the stratagem wouldn’t be too useful either for a solo knight. On the other hand a House Raven Castellan would benefit hugely from their stratagem and doesn’t really care about advancing, so it would be fine as an auxiliary. But a Raven Valiant doesn’t make much sense at all as an auxiliary – it should be an Imperial freeblade, or maybe Hawkshroud for their “for the greater good” stratagem.

It might well be that in practice it makes more sense for auxiliary knights to be from houses than to be freeblades. Each kind of knight might have a house that works really well for it, providing more benefit than you’d get from being a freeblade. If that turns out to be the case, it would mean you wouldn’t see many freeblades at all, except sometimes to cross factions within a lance. We’ll see, I guess.

[wishlisting] It would have been cool if they’d added renegade knights to the book. They could have done, easily enough, or they could do it with a downloadable PDF. Essentially it could be made so that “Renegade” was a sub-faction like Imperial or Mech aready is. No access to Imperia/Mech stuff but the option to use generic stuff and maybe some new renegade options instead. And they should use the same datasheets, without the option to mount two of the same gun that they have now. A renegade dual-avenger knight will be fantastic if its points get dropped.[/wishlisting]


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 13:37:51


Post by: tneva82


And of course freeblades adds fun and cool modeling options. If you are looking only at uber competive things each codex loses like 70% options anyway.

As for renegade knights i'l' bet eventually that comes as own codex. Why sell 2 factions for price of 1 when you can sell them for price of 2?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 14:30:42


Post by: TheMostWize


Ok so I am new to knights and have been reading through this sub.

First rules question is. Does House Raven allow Advance and then making heavy into assault also removing the to hit penalty? Essentially meaning you can advance your units to hit at full BS instead of a -1?

That being said would 2 Crusaders and a Gallant be an effective use of the household? Not a huge fan of the Dominus or Armigers so preferring to stick with the Questoris classes.

I am thinking:

Crusader - TC, Endless Fury, Ion Bulwark
Crusader - TC, Avenger GC, Sainted Ion
Gallant - Cunning Commander (Free heroic interventions)

This would be supported by some sort of ground troops. Most likely my Grey Knights because I already own them. Eventually the hope is Peltasts could fill this role.

House Taranis also looks intriguing.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 14:43:03


Post by: Mandragola


 TheMostWize wrote:
Ok so I am new to knights and have been reading through this sub.

First rules question is. Does House Raven allow Advance and then making heavy into assault also removing the to hit penalty? Essentially meaning you can advance your units to hit at full BS instead of a -1?

That being said would 2 Crusaders and a Gallant be an effective use of the household? Not a huge fan of the Dominus or Armigers so preferring to stick with the Questoris classes.

I am thinking:

Crusader - TC, Endless Fury, Ion Bulwark
Crusader - TC, Avenger GC, Sainted Ion
Gallant - Cunning Commander (Free heroic interventions)

This would be supported by some sort of ground troops. Most likely my Grey Knights because I already own them. Eventually the hope is Peltasts could fill this role.

House Taranis also looks intriguing.
You can advance and fire without penalty, yes. Your guns become assault, and you suffer no penalty to hit when firing assault weapons.

I wouldn't run that detachment as House Raven. None of the knights particularly benefit from the house trait. Crusaders are in no hurry, so they don’t need to advance and fire. The Gallant wants to advance but hasn’t really got any guns, so who cares whether it can fire or not?

House Raven actually works really well with the Dominus chassis. Being able to advance and fire is great for a Valiant, while their stratagem is fantastic on a Dominus. Neither is anywhere near as good on a Questoris knight, sadly.

House Raven definitely wants a warlord with Landstrider mixed in somewhere, so that they get to run around the place faster.

If you want to run Questoris knights then I’d recommend Taranis over Raven. You get more wounds/point, which is what Taranis wants.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 14:45:36


Post by: TheMostWize


Mandragola wrote:
 TheMostWize wrote:
Ok so I am new to knights and have been reading through this sub.

First rules question is. Does House Raven allow Advance and then making heavy into assault also removing the to hit penalty? Essentially meaning you can advance your units to hit at full BS instead of a -1?

That being said would 2 Crusaders and a Gallant be an effective use of the household? Not a huge fan of the Dominus or Armigers so preferring to stick with the Questoris classes.

I am thinking:

Crusader - TC, Endless Fury, Ion Bulwark
Crusader - TC, Avenger GC, Sainted Ion
Gallant - Cunning Commander (Free heroic interventions)

This would be supported by some sort of ground troops. Most likely my Grey Knights because I already own them. Eventually the hope is Peltasts could fill this role.

House Taranis also looks intriguing.
You can advance and fire without penalty, yes. Your guns become assault, and you suffer no penalty to hit when firing assault weapons.

I wouldn't run that detachment as House Raven. None of the knights particularly benefit from the house trait. Crusaders are in no hurry, so they don’t need to advance and fire. The Gallant wants to advance but hasn’t really got any guns, so who cares whether it can fire or not?

House Raven actually works really well with the Dominus chassis. Being able to advance and fire is great for a Valiant, while their stratagem is fantastic on a Dominus. Neither is anywhere near as good on a Questoris knight, sadly.

House Raven definitely wants a warlord with Landstrider mixed in somewhere, so that they get to run around the place faster.

If you want to run Questoris knights then I’d recommend Taranis over Raven. You get more wounds/point, which is what Taranis wants.


Easy enough. Thank you for the input I will make that change then.

Is the 2 Crusader Gallant set up best or would it be better served to change one to a warden? Or 1 Crusader and 2 Wardens?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 15:48:14


Post by: Eldarain


 ph34r wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
With the number of wounds on these things it's really tempting. The Raven Strategem for the Castellan tips it that way for me.

Maybe all Taranis with a Freeblade Raven Castellan would be worth trying.
I thought <FREEBLADE> replaces <HOUSEHOLD> so you could not be Freeblade Raven.

Right. I got greedy and confused the ability to mix Imperialis and Mechanicus that way.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 16:19:50


Post by: Emulgator


What do you guys consider a good relic/trait combination for a single Errant in an Aux detachment

List:
Spoiler:

+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [58 PL, 998pts] +++

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)

Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom (-1CP)

Household Choice: House Taranis, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Knight Errant: Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Meltagun, Reaper chainsword, Thermal cannon, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Character: Exalted Court Member

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++

Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Macrostubber, Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster

Tech-Priest Enginseer: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm
. Warlord: Necromechanic

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle

Skitarii Vanguards: Enhanced data-tether
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard
. 2x Vanguard (Plasma caliver): 2x Plasma caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards: 4x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Heavy Support +

Onager Dunecrawler: Broad Spectrum Data-tether
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Icarus Array

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


The Errant is already build in this configuration (only rocket/icarus magnetized) so i was thinking about using him as a forward threat (with his enginseer babysitter tailing him) while the rest of my stuff hunkers down as a little firebase in the back
for this reason i thought i chose relic/wl trait in a manner to make him as resiliant as possible to divert attention.

is the combination of saint ion and bulwark overkill or would you recommend Vulker for adamantium knight (was thinking taranis for the revive)
offensive choices like landstrider dont really appeal to me since i wanna be shooting his gun every turn and i also dont wanna run away to far from his repair buddy
thoughts ?


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 16:55:32


Post by: Kdash


Emulgator wrote:
What do you guys consider a good relic/trait combination for a single Errant in an Aux detachment

List:
Spoiler:

+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [58 PL, 998pts] +++

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)

Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom (-1CP)

Household Choice: House Taranis, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Knight Errant: Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Meltagun, Reaper chainsword, Thermal cannon, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Character: Exalted Court Member

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++

Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Macrostubber, Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster

Tech-Priest Enginseer: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm
. Warlord: Necromechanic

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle

Skitarii Vanguards: Enhanced data-tether
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard
. 2x Vanguard (Plasma caliver): 2x Plasma caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards: 4x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Heavy Support +

Onager Dunecrawler: Broad Spectrum Data-tether
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Icarus Array

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


The Errant is already build in this configuration (only rocket/icarus magnetized) so i was thinking about using him as a forward threat (with his enginseer babysitter tailing him) while the rest of my stuff hunkers down as a little firebase in the back
for this reason i thought i chose relic/wl trait in a manner to make him as resiliant as possible to divert attention.

is the combination of saint ion and bulwark overkill or would you recommend Vulker for adamantium knight (was thinking taranis for the revive)
offensive choices like landstrider dont really appeal to me since i wanna be shooting his gun every turn and i also dont wanna run away to far from his repair buddy
thoughts ?


If you're going Mechanicus, and want to stick with the Errant, i'd prob look at running Tanaris and the Tanaris melta relic - especially if you're running the 4+ invuln.

It increases your range, always gives you melta bonus and you'll gain the survivability from the 4++ and the 6+++.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 17:08:24


Post by: Ideasweasel


But he would loose the household traditon 6+++ as Aux detachments got broken in the codex


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 17:23:36


Post by: Kdash


 Ideasweasel wrote:
But he would loose the household traditon 6+++ as Aux detachments got broken in the codex


Oops, completely forgot and didn't think properly before posting


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 17:45:53


Post by: Emulgator


Kdash wrote:


If you're going Mechanicus, and want to stick with the Errant, i'd prob look at running Tanaris and the Tanaris melta relic - especially if you're running the 4+ invuln.

It increases your range, always gives you melta bonus and you'll gain the survivability from the 4++ and the 6+++.


I guess with rotate ion shields every turn i wont use the 2+ a lot, the relic thermal cannon just felt a bit underwhelming to me compared to the other weapon relics...


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 18:03:06


Post by: Mandragola


The Taranis relic is pretty weak. Most of the time it's no different to the normal Thermal Cannon. I don't honestly see much reason to run Taranis outside of a Lance.

I'm not sure there's really any house that stands out as great for a solo Errant. The relic options for its weapons are bad. House Raven would be good for it in a lance but the stratagem isn't brilliant for it.

The best thing might be to paint it in some sort of generic Admech scheme, so you can use it as a freeblade or make your own Admech house later on if you decide to get more knights.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 18:14:46


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Is there a clear picture of house colors for all of the knights (with labels for which house is which)? I don't know one house from the next.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 18:20:22


Post by: Emulgator


Mandragola wrote:
The Taranis relic is pretty weak. Most of the time it's no different to the normal Thermal Cannon. I don't honestly see much reason to run Taranis outside of a Lance.

I'm not sure there's really any house that stands out as great for a solo Errant. The relic options for its weapons are bad. House Raven would be good for it in a lance but the stratagem isn't brilliant for it.

The best thing might be to paint it in some sort of generic Admech scheme, so you can use it as a freeblade or make your own Admech house later on if you decide to get more knights.


I chose Taranis initially for the 2cp Our Darkest Hour+Machine Spirit Resourgent combo


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 18:20:44


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Is there a clear picture of house colors for all of the knights (with labels for which house is which)? I don't know one house from the next.


...the Codex.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 18:27:44


Post by: Karhedron


Mandragola wrote:
 TheMostWize wrote:

First rules question is. Does House Raven allow Advance and then making heavy into assault also removing the to hit penalty? Essentially meaning you can advance your units to hit at full BS instead of a -1?

That being said would 2 Crusaders and a Gallant be an effective use of the household? Not a huge fan of the Dominus or Armigers so preferring to stick with the Questoris classes.

I am thinking:

Crusader - TC, Endless Fury, Ion Bulwark
Crusader - TC, Avenger GC, Sainted Ion
Gallant - Cunning Commander (Free heroic interventions)

You can advance and fire without penalty, yes. Your guns become assault, and you suffer no penalty to hit when firing assault weapons.

I wouldn't run that detachment as House Raven. None of the knights particularly benefit from the house trait. Crusaders are in no hurry, so they don’t need to advance and fire. The Gallant wants to advance but hasn’t really got any guns, so who cares whether it can fire or not?

House Raven actually works really well with the Dominus chassis. Being able to advance and fire is great for a Valiant, while their stratagem is fantastic on a Dominus. Neither is anywhere near as good on a Questoris knight, sadly.

House Raven definitely wants a warlord with Landstrider mixed in somewhere, so that they get to run around the place faster.


I disagree. The Raven stratagem is fantastic on Crusaders and worth considering for that alone (if you have enough CPs). The Traits is handy too as it means your Crusaders can start off well back (preferably behind some LOS blocking terrain) in case you do not get T1. Then in your turn, you have extra movement to get into some good LOS. If you are facing an enemy without any particularly scary CC units, you can use the Advance and Fire trait to get into range to use those stompy feet too.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 19:03:33


Post by: AstraVlad


 Karhedron wrote:

I disagree. The Raven stratagem is fantastic on Crusaders and worth considering for that alone (if you have enough CPs).

Yes, I can not understand how people can not get it. Re-rolls for all and every 1s for a shooting phase for 12/14 shots from Gatling Cannon, 2D6 shots from RFBC, 6 shots from heavy stabbers, D6 shots from missile pod and D6 shots from heavy flamer? It worth its price in gold.

 Karhedron wrote:

The Traits is handy too as it means your Crusaders can start off well back (preferably behind some LOS blocking terrain) in case you do not get T1. Then in your turn, you have extra movement to get into some good LOS. If you are facing an enemy without any particularly scary CC units, you can use the Advance and Fire trait to get into range to use those stompy feet too.

Or if you do not want to be in CC you can move and advance as far away as you can and still shoot at full efficiency.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/18 21:43:18


Post by: Mandragola


That's fair. The Raven stratagem is great on a Crusader. It's even better on a Castellan, but still very good value for the Crusader - especially if you've got a carapace weapon.

I'm still not sure it's the best household for that particular set of knights, because I don't think the household trait is all that good, but it's obviously not terrible. I think I'd probably replace the Gallant and one of the Crusaders with a couple of Wardens, so as to have more flexibility.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 04:00:33


Post by: Mr. Funktastic


Any idea on when we might hear about FW Knights keyword fixes and/or point adjustments? I feel like it would make sense to bring them down to have them more in line with the overall points drop GW Knights got. I'm sorely tempted to pick up a Knight Atrapos...


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 05:00:53


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Any idea on when we might hear about FW Knights keyword fixes and/or point adjustments? I feel like it would make sense to bring them down to have them more in line with the overall points drop GW Knights got. I'm sorely tempted to pick up a Knight Atrapos...
Probably not until the FAQ/errata for the codex comes out. It should hit this week or next week.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 05:29:19


Post by: tneva82


Even then don't expect point changes. Just keyword thing. For points expect them on CA but then again as they are resin GW is more likely to up the points than drop.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 06:05:11


Post by: Ice_can


tneva82 wrote:
Even then don't expect point changes. Just keyword thing. For points expect them on CA but then again as they are resin GW is more likely to up the points than drop.


I also wouldn't be expecting point drops, especially with some of the ways that FW knights and household strategum interactions as I don't get the impression that the codex designers thought about the FW knights during the codex.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 06:23:44


Post by: Wulfey


Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 06:50:37


Post by: tneva82


Wulfey wrote:
Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.


Survivability could be one since that's going to be prime target and you will be facing 1-2 turns of shooting before shooting often enough. Or you don't believe in chapter/regiment/whatever hopping but actually play faction because you like fluff and not because it's most broken awesomeness for your current models.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 07:25:43


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Wulfey wrote:
Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.
Don't forget, a Mortan Crusader can keep a decent cushion between it and would-be attackers, allowing for them to use Legacy of the Black Pall to maximum effectiveness. And if something manages to charge them, they tap dance on 2s.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 08:39:12


Post by: Mandragola


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.
Don't forget, a Mortan Crusader can keep a decent cushion between it and would-be attackers, allowing for them to use Legacy of the Black Pall to maximum effectiveness. And if something manages to charge them, they tap dance on 2s.

It's 3s. Don't forget a Dominus knight only hits on a 4+ normally.

Hawkshroud or Raven are best for a Valiant. The Raven stratagem is actually pretty good for it, and of course the ability to advance and fire - along with landstrider - is fantastic.

Meanwhile the Hawkshroud tradition isn't bad, but as raven knight can easily replicate its effect. Their stratagem is amazing, but somewhat limited in that it only really applies to someone crazy enough to charge knights in the first place. In that situation it's clearly devastating.

I'd have to see Valiants fielded more often to really judge them. An awful lot depends on how games play out and whether they can get into range consistently. Actually that shouldn't be too hard for the flamer, but the harpoon and meltas will be more of a challenge. It's actually very strong in fights agaist things like Custodes and other knights, so it might be one of those units that's more useful in the meta than its stats would initially suggest. At the same time it's probably quite weak against hordes - though that's probably a problem the whole codex has up to a point.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 09:44:21


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 09:45:26


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Mandragola wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Crusaders need to be mortan or raven. Either you want the IGNORE_MODIFIERS strategem or you want the REROLL_ALL_1S strategem. Either of those are huge for crusaders. A mortan crusader consistently drops 2 eldar MSU's a turn. A Krast crusader could also be a surprise strong pick with the +1/+2 damage against 10W/Titanic models.

Is there a reason to take a valiant that isn't Hawkshroud? THe castellan can do some nice shooting as Raven, or maybe ... maybe do some work as krast with that big damage against big targets relic ... but I think there is only one house for a valiant.
Don't forget, a Mortan Crusader can keep a decent cushion between it and would-be attackers, allowing for them to use Legacy of the Black Pall to maximum effectiveness. And if something manages to charge them, they tap dance on 2s.

It's 3s. Don't forget a Dominus knight only hits on a 4+ normally.
I was addressing the first part of the post about the Crusaders. Mortan Crusaders hit on 2s if they charge or are charged.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 09:57:34


Post by: AstraVlad


Mandragola wrote:
At the same time it's probably quite weak against hordes - though that's probably a problem the whole codex has up to a point.

That is what allies are for . IG detachment with 9-12 mortars and probably a couple of Hellhounds will be a hordes' worst nightmare.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 10:05:22


Post by: tneva82


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.


Others knights costs up to 66% as much as valiant does though giving almost enough points for IG ally battallion etc.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 11:03:59


Post by: casvalremdeikun


tneva82 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.


Others knights costs up to 66% as much as valiant does though giving almost enough points for IG ally battallion etc.
And do the anti-horde killing nearly as well if not better (Battle Cannon Crusader with an Ironstorm will exceed the Valiant for a fraction of the price). Meanwhile, they also are better in close combat due to hitting on 3s with their tap-dancing.

The Valiant needs a substantial overhaul to be viable at this point.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 11:06:53


Post by: _Ness


Im playing 1 gallant + 1 crusader in house krast. krast gallant rapes anything with knight seneshal, and my crusader gets the rfbc + gatling relic and the reroll 1s to hit wl trait.

if you want to crush superheavys or vehicle/monster heavy armies get the krast-relic on 1 of them and melt through 10+ wound units.

my gallant one-shot a baneblade + other tanks with his feet last game with the krast relic. and the sheer amount of shots getting rerolled from the crusader + the bonus in the first cc phase is just too good to skip.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 11:10:26


Post by: tneva82


Careless of enemy to not have infantry etc front of baneblade to prevent you from charging.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 12:19:08


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Krast Relic is a bit of a waste on a Gallant; just get him the paragon guantlet.

Krast is better on a mixed thunderstrike and gun knight of any sort.

Krast turns a thunderstike into a slightly worse Paragon: maintains -1 to hit, 7 damage vs non-titanic, same exact profile vs Titanic.

Since Krast relic applies to all weapons increasing guns damage vs vehicles makes even the RFBC a good choice, and your stubbers become scarier along with also making an Ironstorm decent enough to be fired at vehicles.

Putting it on either Dominus chassis is almost overkill; but would be delightful.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 12:37:59


Post by: _Ness


Well 6*3 attacks w3+2 dmg vs titanic is no waste if you ask me (combine it with the krast strata for even more hits)


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 12:47:57


Post by: Cephalobeard


Here's my WIP 1750 List, while I wait for the FW FAQ.

Spoiler:
Imperial Knight Lance (Taranis):

1x2 Armiger Warglaives
Stubbers

1x2 Armiger Warglaives
Stubbers

1x2 Armiger Helverins

Knight Preceptor
Stubber, Gauntlet, Ironstorm, Warlord, Omnissiahs Mask

AM Battalion:

1x Company Commander
Warlord, Kurovs

1x Primaris Psyker

3x 9 Infantry + Mortars

1x3 Heavy Weapons
Mortars


Goal is pretty simple. Mortars pepper things outside of LOS, or help clear infantry, the Armigers and Preceptor all move up together in a bubble, rocking BS3+ rerolling 1s, BS2+ if we identify a problem target.

As they're all Taranis, that's 72 3+/5++/6+++ Wounds from the Armigers alone, with the Preceptor being kept alive (hopefully) on turns he might normally die with the Taranis strat, letting him buff the Armigers for as long as possible.

Only 10 Drops, so against most competitive armies I'm likely to secure the +1 to go first, helping this list even further.

C/C Welcome. I haven't yet been able to fiddle with any of these yet, still waiting to receive them.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 12:51:25


Post by: Mandragola


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, if a Valiant with that huge confragation flamer can't handle hordes, then the rest of the IK knights are probably in an even worse position against hordes.


Others knights costs up to 66% as much as valiant does though giving almost enough points for IG ally battallion etc.
And do the anti-horde killing nearly as well if not better (Battle Cannon Crusader with an Ironstorm will exceed the Valiant for a fraction of the price). Meanwhile, they also are better in close combat due to hitting on 3s with their tap-dancing.

The Valiant needs a substantial overhaul to be viable at this point.
The Valiant’s flamer is good against hordes but none of its other weapons are. Meltas, missiles and the harpoon are all for killing vehicles and other big stuff, and the siegebreaker cannons are kind of all-rounders. Endless Fury will tend to average a similar number of hits as the flamer, and if you pair it with a RFBC and ironstorm pod (and a couple of stubbers) a crusader will tend to land an awful lot more hits, from much further away.

The main problem the Valiant has is that its harpoon is kind of a joke. You could argue that it’s not a bad gun – it will totally wreck things when it does land a wound – but its usefulness is totally dependent on your opponent. What units do they bring and do they put them within 12” of your Valiant? And if they do, would four meltas not already get the job done?

I think House Krast is a really solid all-round performer. They’ve got clearly the best of the “slightly better in melee” traditions. Their warlord trait and relic are good and their stratagem is sort of useful – especially for stamping on plaguebearers. Krast doesn’t stand out quite as much as Raven or Taranis, but it’s still very good

That said, the thunderstrike gauntlet isn’t the way I’d go with the relic. In fact I think you’d almost always be better off kicking stuff and getting the bonus damage three times as often - potentially. I’d stick it on either a Crusader with ironstorm pod or a Castellan. I’d give serious thought to taking two Castellans – one with Cawl’s Wrath and the other with the Krast relic.

The Paragon Gauntlet is good for Krast though. It would be able to reroll all misses (not getting stuck with 3s that can’t be rerolled) and does 2 extra damage against everything – not just titanic targets. It probably isn’t needed though if you’ve got a castellan or crusader with the relic. Titanic stuff will already be suffering.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 13:23:07


Post by: Kommissar Kel


 _Ness wrote:
Well 6*3 attacks w3+2 dmg vs titanic is no waste if you ask me (combine it with the krast strata for even more hits)


You missed my point and are forgetting some very important factors.

Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.

The paragon guantlet on a Gallant Senechal averages 6 hits with the rerolls, 5 wounds with the 2+ to-wound, -4 AP means no saves unless it has an Invulnerable, and finally 8*5=40 damage dealt to the Titanic opponent(which kills anything in the game).



Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 13:28:42


Post by: tneva82


 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.



24 wounds would actually kill opponent knight. Albeit average hits will make it less in average. 17.5 hits which means about bit under 1W less in average.

But then again is the fist relic better against wide targets enough or is the times it's better like titanics too rare? Enemy will often enough be dictating wha you'll be charging with gallant so you'll be clearing up non-titanic stuff a lot of the time. Fist relic isn't all that useful there. Albeit neither might the other either. Which is why I prefer survivability relics for my gallants. Offensive wise they are often enough overkill anyway.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 13:37:21


Post by: Kdash


Mandragola wrote:

The main problem the Valiant has is that its harpoon is kind of a joke. You could argue that it’s not a bad gun – it will totally wreck things when it does land a wound – but its usefulness is totally dependent on your opponent. What units do they bring and do they put them within 12” of your Valiant? And if they do, would four meltas not already get the job done?



While I agree that the Harpoon is pretty much there for “anti whatever you want” plays, I also think people are not considering its usage against other units as well.

For example, a scout squad has the potential to lose 4 out of its 5 members from a single shot. Shooting it at a Guardsmen screening unit, will potentially cause a morale check where on a 4+ additional models flee. I know it’s not massive numbers, but, when you need to finish off an infantry unit you can potentially use this, instead of overkilling with the flamer.

It might sound odd to consider it, but, 1 harpoon shot and 4 melta shots into any unit hiding in cover is going to likely wipe the squad.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 13:41:22


Post by: tneva82


Kdash wrote:

It might sound odd to consider it, but, 1 harpoon shot and 4 melta shots into any unit hiding in cover is going to likely wipe the squad.


I wouldn't cause less than 3 casualties with bit more than half the time extra average 2 wounds as "likely to wipe the squad" except for maybe 5 strong infantry squads but then again even if that d3 MW was 100%(rather than less than 2/3 times) it would not be in average 5 wounds. Well close but still under it.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 13:59:10


Post by: TheMostWize


Wait so is the optimal Crusader loadout RCBC and AGC? Or is the Thermal Cannon and Avenger good for the points?

Just looking st the point cost and RFBCs seem to be just ok.

My Errant has been pretty boss in my games supporting my Grey Knights.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 14:33:03


Post by: Mandragola


tneva82 wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.



24 wounds would actually kill opponent knight. Albeit average hits will make it less in average. 17.5 hits which means about bit under 1W less in average.

But then again is the fist relic better against wide targets enough or is the times it's better like titanics too rare? Enemy will often enough be dictating wha you'll be charging with gallant so you'll be clearing up non-titanic stuff a lot of the time. Fist relic isn't all that useful there. Albeit neither might the other either. Which is why I prefer survivability relics for my gallants. Offensive wise they are often enough overkill anyway.

I'd never give the Krast relic to a Gallant - because I wouldn't take a Krast Gallant. Rerolling to hits isn't very valuable when you've got a 2+ anyway. The rerolls generate more extra hits on a Questoris or Dominus knight. A Gallant gets 2.08 more hits, a normal Questoris gets 2.66 and a Dominus gets 3 more hits (a 50% improvement) from the tradition.

So what it does is to make a mediocre combat knight much better. A Crusader or Castellan with the Krast relic is a major threat to anything big, both at range and in melee. Remember after all that lots of softer targets than lords of war are affected. Having a rapid fire battlecannon that averaged 3 damage instead of 2 would almost be worth a relic on its own, before you count the fact that the gatling cannon, carapace weapon, the stubbers and even the feet are also buffed.
 TheMostWize wrote:
Wait so is the optimal Crusader loadout RCBC and AGC? Or is the Thermal Cannon and Avenger good for the points?

Just looking st the point cost and RFBCs seem to be just ok.

My Errant has been pretty boss in my games supporting my Grey Knights.

Both are good, in my opinion. The price of going for the RFBC would pay for a TC and ironstorm rocket pod, so on the whole I prefer the TC. But in the example above with the Krast relic the battlecannon would be significantly better.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 14:38:02


Post by: Kommissar Kel


tneva82 wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Titanic feet on a Senechal Gallant get 18 rolls to hit vs your Titanic opponent with rerolls. Meaning you are going to land an average of just under 18 hits(we will call ot 18 for simplicity), you are hitting now with S8 vs T8(usually, and the first factor you forgot), this is 9 average wounds to save. Now the second factor you forgot is the -2 Ap, which means 3 of those wounds are going away vs most Titanic opponents(3+ save, -2 saves on a 5+). D3+2 damage averages to 4(average 2 damage +2 for Krast relic), 4*6 is 24 damage(doesn't even kill an opponent Questoris class knight on average). Yes, your potential damage is 90, but that is beholden to all 18 hits rolling a 4+, and then all 18 wounds failing their saves, followed by every d3 damage rolling a 3.



24 wounds would actually kill opponent knight. Albeit average hits will make it less in average. 17.5 hits which means about bit under 1W less in average.

But then again is the fist relic better against wide targets enough or is the times it's better like titanics too rare? Enemy will often enough be dictating wha you'll be charging with gallant so you'll be clearing up non-titanic stuff a lot of the time. Fist relic isn't all that useful there. Albeit neither might the other either. Which is why I prefer survivability relics for my gallants. Offensive wise they are often enough overkill anyway.


Yeah, I forgot for a secong that questoris have 24 wounds, not 26(have no idea why I was thing 26).

Relic fist is perfect against any vehicle on a gallant, still hitting on 2+ and negating Armour is nasty. T9 is the only Toughness that doesn't get wounded on a 2+. And it has an inherent 8 damage.

Even without the Relic fist(this is the bit I was thinking about), the Gallant actually has the perfect tool-box for melee:
- anything t8 or higher you use Thunderstrike, yes you only hit on a 3+ but nearly every hit will wound with no Armour save(again there are only a limited number of T9+ and 2+ save models out there), dealing 6 damage per hit.
- anything T7 or T6, or TEQ, and low model count, you use the reaper, you are going to hit and wound with nearly every attack and do 6 damage per here as well. TEQ only get a 5+ save so hitting 1 more is better than the Thunderstrike; which would have the same number of saves against it.
-against any T<8, higher model count unit, you stomp your Titanic Feet. The extra hits are going to be more valuable vs MEQ units than the better APs of the Big weapons, and any worse-save units are going to just fold like a pair of 2s.

Only issue with the Parahon Guantlet on a Gallant is that you have just rendered the Reaper as useless points spent. For this reason even it might be better on an errant or a warden.

For the Gallant the only Relics I would give it are Sanctuary, or one of the melee relics. You can Rotate Ion Shields on the Gallant in melee should he get charged(anything he charges is not likely to be there to return attacks if you have used the right weapons), and the Relic Chainswords are fairly good in their own rights. I already mentioned the pros and cons of the paragon.
Warlord traits are Senechal all the way, with some minor household exceptions(Griffin jousting, Terryn charge reroll, cadmus and Vulker damage mitigation).
Strats to use: full tilt is a maybe if he begins near a landstrider, rotate Ions especially if he has sanctuary, chainsweep/deathgrip, valiant last stand or resurgent machine spirit, or Thunderstomp to clear any remnants after stomping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola: Krast Tradition means that you are only missing 1 out of every 36 attacks, that is a lot better than 1 in 6.

But you do not take a Krast Gallant for the tradition, you take it for the strategem: double hits anytime the dice shows a 6. Really negates the need for the strategems it denies. Turns a Senechal Gallants 18 stompy feet hits into 21.

And yes, you give the relic to a mixed weapon knight.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 15:11:36


Post by: AstraVlad


Kdash wrote:

For example, a scout squad has the potential to lose 4 out of its 5 members from a single shot.

It has a potential to inflict no damage at all: if you fail that 3+ to-hit roll or a 2+ to-wound roll. It is a gamble even if your target does not have any negative to-hit modifiers and you are in a top damage bracket. If you are damaged or/and shooting at some sort of protected target (under Nightshroud for example) odds are starting to turn against you.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 15:24:01


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Firing the harpoon at infantry should only be bothered with if there are no optimal targets in range.

The flamer is already going to ruin their day, and all of the concerns you mention are negated anyways.
What I mean by bothering with it is that the unit you targeted both at is not likely to be there when it comes time to roll the to-hit that you are likely to fail with.


Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor @ 2018/06/19 16:09:02


Post by: Mandragola


I don't think that you can really argue that the harpoon is a good anti-infantry weapon. Sure, if you hit and wound it will make one infantry model very dead indeed - along with D3 wounds worth of its friends. But it's still a phenomenally expensive way to kill not very many models.

The harpoon kills 1.66 guardsmen on average, including the chance to kill ~2 with mortal wounds. A siegebreaker turret kills more than that (1.85) at 48".

I know that you're not advocating this as a deliberate strategy - more that it's something the Valiant will do if it's got no better options. My complaint is that it will often have no better options, because its range is awful.

The thing is, the harpoon isn't better at killing tanks than a volcano lance anyway. It does less damage on average to a T7 3+ save target (8.88 vs 11.66) and at 12" range instead of the lance's more respectable 80".

On the other hand, maybe the average damage is less interesting than the chance of killing a vehicle outright. The harpoon has a 74% chance of doing at least 11 wounds to any vehicle in the game, so that's pretty reliable. The lance is arguably more swingy, because quite often the extra wounds it causes when it does well will be wasted. It needs to do two wounding hits at least to kill a tank, and there are lots of ways for that to not happen.

So I'd come back to range. The Lance gets to do that damage to a proprer target most of the time, because it has an effectively infinite range and it's attached to a knight with adequate mobility and the ability to see over intervening stuff. It should fire every turn, while the harpoon often won't get to fire, or will just splatter some ork who was about to be incinerated anyway.