Delvarus Centurion wrote: We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?
I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)
Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.
The least was Magnus I would say.
Agreed on Magnus being the least wise.
I'd say the 'wisest' was a tossup between Sanguinius and Guilliman, although Khan definitely channels Confucius a few times in the lore and should probably get an honorable mention.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?
I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)
Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.
The least was Magnus I would say.
Agreed on Magnus being the least wise.
I'd say the 'wisest' was a tossup between Sanguinius and Guilliman, although Khan definitely channels Confucius a few times in the lore and should probably get an honorable mention.
I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
Delvarus Centurion wrote: We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?
I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)
Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.
The least was Magnus I would say.
Agreed on Magnus being the least wise.
I'd say the 'wisest' was a tossup between Sanguinius and Guilliman, although Khan definitely channels Confucius a few times in the lore and should probably get an honorable mention.
I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.
Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.
I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.
Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.
I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.
Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.
The Emperor made everyone for separate purposes, Vulkan was made to be benevolent with a strong sense of justice, where as Russ was made to be relentless and unmerciful, the Emperor made them to be different.
Rogal Dorn was pretty level headed. Well, most of the time. I can't think of any huge blunders before his spiral into self destruction, and that was after enormous emotional trauma.
Mr Nobody wrote: Rogal Dorn was pretty level headed. Well, most of the time. I can't think of any huge blunders before his spiral into self destruction, and that was after enormous emotional trauma.
He was a total hothead, constantly going into fits of rages.
You can safely rule out Angron, Morty, Russ, Kurze, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Perturabo, and Corax due to having no indication of exceptional wisdom. Magnus was supposedly a genius but demonstrated terrible judgement and decision-making, ruling him out easily. Alpharius was also shown to have exceptionally poor judgement during the Heresy. Dorn could be less than level-headed at times post-heresy, especially when it came to matters of pride. Chaos seriously messed with Horus, so it’s hard to say how wise he was post-heresy. Pre-heresy Lupercal was reputedly pretty good at diplomacy and strategy, making him a potential candidate. The Lion is another genius who made terrible decisions all around. Guilliman seems like the obvious candidate except that he almost brought the Imperium to civil war over his fancy book, which mars his otherwise stellar record. And I don’t know much about Vulkan, Sangyboi, and the Khan.
gnome_idea_what wrote: You can safely rule out Angron, Morty, Russ, Kurze, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Perturabo, and Corax due to having no indication of exceptional wisdom. Magnus was supposedly a genius but demonstrated terrible judgement and decision-making, ruling him out easily. Alpharius was also shown to have exceptionally poor judgement during the Heresy. Dorn could be less than level-headed at times post-heresy, especially when it came to matters of pride. Chaos seriously messed with Horus, so it’s hard to say how wise he was post-heresy. Pre-heresy Lupercal was reputedly pretty good at diplomacy and strategy, making him a potential candidate. The Lion is another genius who made terrible decisions all around. Guilliman seems like the obvious candidate except that he almost brought the Imperium to civil war over his fancy book, which mars his otherwise stellar record. And I don’t know much about Vulkan, Sangyboi, and the Khan.
I wouldn't rule out Corax or Russ, obviously not the wisest but were pretty wise, Russ was the only one that didn't complain about not being made warmaster saying it 'was not his wyrd' so he was humble in a way and being humble is a sign of wisdom, Angron never got the chance to be anything with those butchers nails, wonder what he'd be like without them. Kruze was kinda wise as he accepted exactly what he was and didn't have any delusions of grandeur, but he was petty so either or on that case. Totally agree with Lorgar and Fulgrim.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.
He tried to make the codex absolute in the sense that the legions were split into chapters. To be honest I don't think he would have really cared if your companies had more devastators then what was recommended in the codex, or if you had a slightly different battle doctrine. The proof is that chapters like Dark Angels, and Salamanders are still considered "codex compliant" whilst deviating pretty far from the organizational structures outlined in the codex astartes.
The codex was supposed to be considered a baseline and a unifying underlying doctrine that all chapters could use as a base to develop their own battle doctrine. Most of the resistance to the codex came from people like Dorn who didn't want to split the legions. In no way did Guilliman intend the codex to become a hard and fast, algorithmic, battle manual. To insinuate that Guilliman should have foreseen that the codex would be worshiped as unbreakable, divine scripture upon his incapacitation is a little unfair considering that not even the emperor foresaw the Imperium devolving into a mess of religious dogma at any point in time. Isn't Guilliman even angry at the ultramarines for their reliance on the codex astartes in the new Dark Imperium novel?
Mr Nobody wrote: Rogal Dorn was pretty level headed. Well, most of the time. I can't think of any huge blunders before his spiral into self destruction, and that was after enormous emotional trauma.
Dorn worshiped the ground the emperor walked on and was as stubborn as a mule. He also had the bad manners of the Lion with none of the Lion's strategic brilliance to redeem it. Dorn also got half of his legion killed (and if Guilliman hadn't showed up they would have been totally wiped out) in the Iron Cage incident, because he was too stubborn to admit that he had been tricked and was beaten.
Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.
I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.
Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.
"My teachings are yet flawed. No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed."
I can't remember which book this is from, I'll look into it but it is pretty clear : the codex is not absolute
Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.
I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.
Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.
"My teachings are yet flawed. No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed."
I can't remember which book this is from, I'll look into it but it is pretty clear : the codex is not absolute
Yeah said after he realised he failed. Its from the same short story where he says he failed. Age of darkness was the book. Easy to find the quote as its at the end of the short story.
pm713 wrote: Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.
The Emperor made everyone for separate purposes, Vulkan was made to be benevolent with a strong sense of justice, where as Russ was made to be relentless and unmerciful, the Emperor made them to be different.
I agree with you, but is there anything that states Big E made them all to be different?
pm713 wrote: Vulkan. I think of all the Legions they best demonstrated what Space Marines should be about.
The Emperor made everyone for separate purposes, Vulkan was made to be benevolent with a strong sense of justice, where as Russ was made to be relentless and unmerciful, the Emperor made them to be different.
I agree with you, but is there anything that states Big E made them all to be different?
-STS
Yeah, its all over the lore, Deliverence lost, when Corax, Sixx and Nexin were talking about using clones for the new marines with the Primarch project Corax vetod that as he said the Emperor didn't do that because the Astartes were strong because of their variety and differences, also unlike the Custodes. The Primarchs were all made different that's throughout the lore.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: We always debate about the strongest but which Primarch do you think was the wisest?
I think it was Sangiunuis (Not a blood angel player)
Horus was probably the wisest traitor Primarch but out of all of them I still think Sannyshoes was the wisest.
The least was Magnus I would say.
With this question, is allegiance really matter?
The wisest was Angron. He knew where things were going. Every other Primarch overlooked something important along the way.
No it doesn't matter but I just wanted to give an example of the wisest traitor. Angron was unable to be wise, he needed to fight and be aggressive to quell the pain in his head, it's impossible for him to act wise, he might of been wise without the butchers nails, by the time of his apotheosis he was a shell, all he cared about was cutting things to pieces.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
Well, considering that Guilliman was actually exceptionally good against Orks (Ultramar is near Charadon, and in his Primarch book, is strongly able to deal with Orks.
Even if your enemy's tactic is strapping rokkit packs on and using crude weapons, that's their tactic, and you can exploit that.
What Guilliman warned against was becoming so inflexible that there was no room for change if the previously used tactics became impractical - and I think you may be incorrect on that quote where he warns about inflexibility. I think it may have come from Know No Fear, when he is talking to Remus Ventanus.
The wisest was Angron. He knew where things were going. Every other Primarch overlooked something important along the way.
No it doesn't matter but I just wanted to give an example of the wisest traitor. Angron was unable to be wise, he needed to fight and be aggressive to quell the pain in his head, it's impossible for him to act wise, he might of been wise without the butchers nails, by the time of his apotheosis he was a shell, all he cared about was cutting things to pieces.
I think that's partially true of Angron. I think it's in Betrayer where he and Lorgar are having a discussion about something to do with the Shadow Crusade and he says to Lorgar that just because he does things the way he does doesn't mean that he can't do things other ways and that he isn't an idiot. I think slade the sniper has a point, out of all the Primarchs Angron and Curze knew what they were and accepted it where most of the others were always trying to prove something. I think that's a degree of wisdom right there.
From a philosophical point of view I would say that Sanguinius was probably the wisest, knowing his eventual fate at the hand of his brother, seem to made him more thoughtful and insightful to things. Guilliman and the Lion nominating him to be the Emperor of Imperium Secundus I think is a big thumbs up to that.
I suppose the first thing we have to do in this case is define what IS wisdom. We all agree that there is a differance between knowledge and wisdom, with Magnus being the postr boy for "intelligent but unwise"
Wisdom is defined in the Oxford english dictionary as "Capacity of judging rightly in matters relating to life and conduct; soundness of judgement in the choice of means and ends; sometimes, less strictly, sound sense, esp. in practical affairs: opp. to folly;"
So using this definition in the discussion of wisdom, it's "whom can take the information they have and plot the correct choices?"
I'd argue this eliminates most if not all of the traitor primarchs, as they all made some bad choices.
Looking at the loyalists, we lack sufficant information about some and haven't seen many faced with hard choices. Others we've seen eneugh to see the flaws in their personality HOWEVER, most of the loyalsits we have seen tested, Ruinstorm was a case of some of the most obvious testing, with Gulliman, Sanguinis and the Lion all tested in their own way. I'm gonna agree Sanguinis was proably the wisest of the Primarchs, the most introspective etc. Gulliman also struck me as, mostly wise. of the loyalists Dorn strikes me as the least wise, due to his inflexable personality, Wolfsbane really demonstrated this, there's no introspection with Dorn, just a iron clad sureness, this is a huge blind spot that can lead to trouble (see the Fists Exemplar as an example)
Delvarus Centurion wrote:I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
Well, considering that Guilliman was actually exceptionally good against Orks (Ultramar is near Charadon, and in his Primarch book, is strongly able to deal with Orks.
Even if your enemy's tactic is strapping rokkit packs on and using crude weapons, that's their tactic, and you can exploit that.
What Guilliman warned against was becoming so inflexible that there was no room for change if the previously used tactics became impractical - and I think you may be incorrect on that quote where he warns about inflexibility. I think it may have come from Know No Fear, when he is talking to Remus Ventanus.
Its in rules of engagement in age of darkness, he was speaking to Remus Vantanus.
Bharring wrote: The way some of the fluff is written, the wisest Primarch is always that of the [1d20] legion. Rerolled each scene.
Yes, 10% of the time they're all so freaking stupid that someone we've never read anything about is the wisest.
Lol, yeah the Emperor of Mankind novel even showed the Emperor talking to Ra about how stupid they were, he values his ten thousand far more than the Primarchs. Because they like him don't care about glory, The Emperor said, that's all the Primarchs cared about, which is why he did the whole ridiculous Ullanor celebration. He even referred to the Primarchs as ' the creatures that call him father' so brutal lol
From the books I have read so far, I would have to say the Khan is a contender. He didn't rush to judgement about what happened on Prospero. He rushed to find out for himself. He makes up his own mind and then acts carefully.
I havent yet seen where the Khan has made a bad decision on the same level as many others.
SickSix wrote: From the books I have read so far, I would have to say the Khan is a contender. He didn't rush to judgement about what happened on Prospero. He rushed to find out for himself. He makes up his own mind and then acts carefully.
I havent yet seen where the Khan has made a bad decision on the same level as many others.
SickSix wrote: From the books I have read so far, I would have to say the Khan is a contender. He didn't rush to judgement about what happened on Prospero. He rushed to find out for himself. He makes up his own mind and then acts carefully.
I havent yet seen where the Khan has made a bad decision on the same level as many others.
I still think Sanguinius and Guilliman have him beat, but yeah, like I said in an earlier post Khan definitely deserves an honorable mention. Throughout the novels I have read he was surprisingly levelheaded for someone who is supposed to be a Genghis Khan expy. He also didn't pick sides at the beginning of the Heresy and preferred to figure out what really happened for himself instead of believing what people were trying to tell him. He was also one of the few primarchs who treated Perturabo and Magnus with any kind of respect/friendliness.
He also told Russ to feth off when Russ called him a coward for not wanting to leave Terra to fight the Chaos advance, because Khan knew the main battle was going to be there and wanted to be present for it. Anyone who has the testicular fortitude to tell Russ to feth himself when he acts like a douchebag (which is 90% of the time) automatically deserves brownie points in my book.
Bharring wrote: The way some of the fluff is written, the wisest Primarch is always that of the [1d20] legion. Rerolled each scene.
Yes, 10% of the time they're all so freaking stupid that someone we've never read anything about is the wisest.
Lol, yeah the Emperor of Mankind novel even showed the Emperor talking to Ra about how stupid they were, he values his ten thousand far more than the Primarchs. Because they like him don't care about glory, The Emperor said, that's all the Primarchs cared about, which is why he did the whole ridiculous Ullanor celebration. He even referred to the Primarchs as ' the creatures that call him father' so brutal lol
It’s things like this that make me think the emperor isn’t truely one person as we know it, I don’t mean split personality as such, I think he literally embodies whatever “mask” he puts on when dealing with whoever he is dealing with, I started thinking this after guilliman mused on how the emperor of 40k is now incapable of showing any humanity anymore, he also suspects the emperor is more powerful now than he was in 30k.
I have to step up for my man Lorgar. He seeked out the Truth, no matter where it took him. He saw the Galaxy for what it was, and the Powers That Be for the farce that big E put up for his sons...
I cannot keep silent about the Twins either... Alpharius and Omegon were no slouch...
For me, all of the Primarchs fell to some kind of hubris, to some sort of tragic flaw that made them who they were, but the least wise of them all was probably Fulgrim... Clever, yes, wise, no...
Bharring wrote: The way some of the fluff is written, the wisest Primarch is always that of the [1d20] legion. Rerolled each scene.
Yes, 10% of the time they're all so freaking stupid that someone we've never read anything about is the wisest.
Lol, yeah the Emperor of Mankind novel even showed the Emperor talking to Ra about how stupid they were, he values his ten thousand far more than the Primarchs. Because they like him don't care about glory, The Emperor said, that's all the Primarchs cared about, which is why he did the whole ridiculous Ullanor celebration. He even referred to the Primarchs as ' the creatures that call him father' so brutal lol
It’s things like this that make me think the emperor isn’t truely one person as we know it, I don’t mean split personality as such, I think he literally embodies whatever “mask” he puts on when dealing with whoever he is dealing with, I started thinking this after guilliman mused on how the emperor of 40k is now incapable of showing any humanity anymore, he also suspects the emperor is more powerful now than he was in 30k.
He definitely favoured the 10,000 but he just saw the Primarchs as weapons, when Land talked to him he realised that the Emperor is completely un-emotional and objective, he didn't mean to insult the Primarch's its just brutal in that they saw him as a father and that he saw them as weapons. Its hard to expect a being who is practically a god, to act like mortals or Primarchs do. I doubt the Emperor is more powerful now, during the crusade he powered and directed the astronomicon himself while leading and fighting a galactic war, I just think that the golden throne increases his power.
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ChaosDad wrote: I have to step up for my man Lorgar. He seeked out the Truth, no matter where it took him. He saw the Galaxy for what it was, and the Powers That Be for the farce that big E put up for his sons...
I cannot keep silent about the Twins either... Alpharius and Omegon were no slouch...
For me, all of the Primarchs fell to some kind of hubris, to some sort of tragic flaw that made them who they were, but the least wise of them all was probably Fulgrim... Clever, yes, wise, no...
Not Lorgar at all, he spent his life worshipping the Emperor as a god and when the Emperor rebuked him he sought out other gods to believe in, that isn't wisdom at all, he ended up selling his soul for doing just that.
ChargerIIC wrote: Dorn. Of all the primarchs he avoided the most Drama. That's the real sign of wisdom there.
As I said before, I don't think Dorn is a candidate at all, he was a hot head and he went from 1 to a murderous rage out of nowhere and all the time. Not being able to handle your emotions is a sign that you aren't wise.
ChaosDad wrote: I have to step up for my man Lorgar. He seeked out the Truth, no matter where it took him. He saw the Galaxy for what it was, and the Powers That Be for the farce that big E put up for his sons...
I cannot keep silent about the Twins either... Alpharius and Omegon were no slouch...
For me, all of the Primarchs fell to some kind of hubris, to some sort of tragic flaw that made them who they were, but the least wise of them all was probably Fulgrim... Clever, yes, wise, no...
Lorgar was nuts. He basically left all his decision making to blind faith instead of reason. He never questioned his path and as a result ended up as a pawn of the Ruinous Powers. If he had been wiser he wouldn’t have flipped out as soon as the Emperor told Lorgar to stop worshipping him. As for the Hydras they made some questionable decisions involving the cabal, and when faced with the opportunity to leave some sort of contingency plan or legacy they let their legion fracture (Unless that was the plan all along, the problem with the Alpha Legion is that you can explain any questionable action as just part of a larger scheme). They squandered their resources and failed to make any lasting impact on the Heresy.
Bharring wrote: The way some of the fluff is written, the wisest Primarch is always that of the [1d20] legion. Rerolled each scene.
Yes, 10% of the time they're all so freaking stupid that someone we've never read anything about is the wisest.
Lol, yeah the Emperor of Mankind novel even showed the Emperor talking to Ra about how stupid they were, he values his ten thousand far more than the Primarchs. Because they like him don't care about glory, The Emperor said, that's all the Primarchs cared about, which is why he did the whole ridiculous Ullanor celebration. He even referred to the Primarchs as ' the creatures that call him father' so brutal lol
It’s things like this that make me think the emperor isn’t truely one person as we know it, I don’t mean split personality as such, I think he literally embodies whatever “mask” he puts on when dealing with whoever he is dealing with, I started thinking this after guilliman mused on how the emperor of 40k is now incapable of showing any humanity anymore, he also suspects the emperor is more powerful now than he was in 30k.
He definitely favoured the 10,000 but he just saw the Primarchs as weapons, when Land talked to him he realised that the Emperor is completely un-emotional and objective, he didn't mean to insult the Primarch's its just brutal in that they saw him as a father and that he saw them as weapons. Its hard to expect a being who is practically a god, to act like mortals or Primarchs do. I doubt the Emperor is more powerful now, during the crusade he powered and directed the astronomicon himself while leading and fighting a galactic war, I just think that the golden throne increases his power.
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ChaosDad wrote: I have to step up for my man Lorgar. He seeked out the Truth, no matter where it took him. He saw the Galaxy for what it was, and the Powers That Be for the farce that big E put up for his sons...
I cannot keep silent about the Twins either... Alpharius and Omegon were no slouch...
For me, all of the Primarchs fell to some kind of hubris, to some sort of tragic flaw that made them who they were, but the least wise of them all was probably Fulgrim... Clever, yes, wise, no...
Not Lorgar at all, he spent his life worshipping the Emperor as a god and when the Emperor rebuked him he sought out other gods to believe in, that isn't wisdom at all, he ended up selling his soul for doing just that.
Thing is he came off as cold and uemotional when dealing with Land, a admech adept who valued logic and emotion, from off hand comments he came off as warm and caring to the primarchs. I tend to agree with the theory the Emperor was a bit of a chamleon.
ChargerIIC wrote: Dorn. Of all the primarchs he avoided the most Drama. That's the real sign of wisdom there.
Dorn purposely did stuff to piss Perturabo off, and got into fights with pretty much every other primarch, including Russ (whom he had a lot in common with). He most definitely didn't try to avoid drama.
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Formosa wrote: It’s things like this that make me think the emperor isn’t truely one person as we know it, I don’t mean split personality as such, I think he literally embodies whatever “mask” he puts on when dealing with whoever he is dealing with, I started thinking this after guilliman mused on how the emperor of 40k is now incapable of showing any humanity anymore, he also suspects the emperor is more powerful now than he was in 30k.
I think the emperor was one individual, albeit one that had massive amounts of psychic power, could alter his appearance at will, and was a genius, both scientifically and socially. I think he was manipulating everyone around him constantly, by only showing them aspects of his personality that he thought they would react positively to. Guilliman does the same thing after he is resurrected. Here is a passage from Dark Imperium:
Spoiler:
"Roboute Guilliman settled heavily into his new throne. The Primarch had despatched all of his attendants and advisors, even sending his Honour Guard to wait outside the sanctum. At last he could allow a little of his sorrow, trauma and pain to show, and Guilliman let his mask drop with a sigh of relief. Whatever had been done to him to bring him back, it had left the Primarch with a constant, gnawing ache that radiated from deep within. He suspected that pain would never leave him.
Physical hurts were the least of Guilliman's troubles. One by one, the Primarch had spoken with each of the Celestinians, the lords of the Ultramarines, and even Yvraine of the Ynnari. Solar days had been spent in deep, earnest conversation, Guilliman using every iota of his statesman's guile to set his guests at ease, to tease from them as much information as he could, and to hide his reactions to their words. Guilliman had thanked each of his visitors for their insights and their service to the Imperium, inwardly assessing each of his guests and showing them whatever aspect of his personality was surest to render them sympathetic and voluble."
I just think the emperor was much more skilled at it. What is clear however is that the emperor was not infallible, his reaction to his webway project getting destroyed and misjudging Horus in his final moments is proof of that. It is also clear that the emperor never really cared for any of his sons on a personal level (except MAYBE Horus), nor felt anything towards his astartes. They were weapons to him, tools, resources to be used up. He cared about them only insomuch as a man cares about a favorite knife or a trusty sidearm.
I do think he was human on a fundamental level though. It is quite clear he felt emotions and actually had a true personality beyond his manipulations. His friendship with malcador and his custodes is proof of that.
Bharring wrote: The way some of the fluff is written, the wisest Primarch is always that of the [1d20] legion. Rerolled each scene.
Yes, 10% of the time they're all so freaking stupid that someone we've never read anything about is the wisest.
Lol, yeah the Emperor of Mankind novel even showed the Emperor talking to Ra about how stupid they were, he values his ten thousand far more than the Primarchs. Because they like him don't care about glory, The Emperor said, that's all the Primarchs cared about, which is why he did the whole ridiculous Ullanor celebration. He even referred to the Primarchs as ' the creatures that call him father' so brutal lol
It’s things like this that make me think the emperor isn’t truely one person as we know it, I don’t mean split personality as such, I think he literally embodies whatever “mask” he puts on when dealing with whoever he is dealing with, I started thinking this after guilliman mused on how the emperor of 40k is now incapable of showing any humanity anymore, he also suspects the emperor is more powerful now than he was in 30k.
He definitely favoured the 10,000 but he just saw the Primarchs as weapons, when Land talked to him he realised that the Emperor is completely un-emotional and objective, he didn't mean to insult the Primarch's its just brutal in that they saw him as a father and that he saw them as weapons. Its hard to expect a being who is practically a god, to act like mortals or Primarchs do. I doubt the Emperor is more powerful now, during the crusade he powered and directed the astronomicon himself while leading and fighting a galactic war, I just think that the golden throne increases his power.
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ChaosDad wrote: I have to step up for my man Lorgar. He seeked out the Truth, no matter where it took him. He saw the Galaxy for what it was, and the Powers That Be for the farce that big E put up for his sons...
I cannot keep silent about the Twins either... Alpharius and Omegon were no slouch...
For me, all of the Primarchs fell to some kind of hubris, to some sort of tragic flaw that made them who they were, but the least wise of them all was probably Fulgrim... Clever, yes, wise, no...
Not Lorgar at all, he spent his life worshipping the Emperor as a god and when the Emperor rebuked him he sought out other gods to believe in, that isn't wisdom at all, he ended up selling his soul for doing just that.
Thing is he came off as cold and uemotional when dealing with Land, a admech adept who valued logic and emotion, from off hand comments he came off as warm and caring to the primarchs. I tend to agree with the theory the Emperor was a bit of a chamleon.
True, but he expressed why he never saw them as father etc. so with that in mind he does have to be cold and logical seeing that he thought of the Primarchs as merely weapons, even though they showed so much love and respect for him. A think a normal person would see them as sons. he's definitely a chameleon though,
would a normal person? How much of that "love and respect" was real as opposed to geneticly programed or even impelled throuygh subtle psionics?
Also the primarchs grew up away from him etc so there wasn't that connection made eaither.
So why should there be a close emotional attachment between the emperor and most of the primarchs?
BrianDavion wrote: would a normal person? How much of that "love and respect" was real as opposed to geneticly programed or even impelled throuygh subtle psionics?
Also the primarchs grew up away from him etc so there wasn't that connection made eaither.
So why should there be a close emotional attachment between the emperor and most of the primarchs?
Yes, you'd obviously bond with something you created that admired, respected and loved you, especially if you have all the benevolent and selfless characteristics of the Emperor. It wasn't programmed in them because, when Land asked why they call him father he told him the story of pinocchio and how the wooden boy called his make father, they organically came to see the Emperor as such, Angron didn't though so again not programmed. Plus the traitor Primarchs grew to hate the emperor, so its obviously not programmed and is a consequence of the will. I am pointing out that 'a normal person would have an attachment' I didn't say the Emperor had an attachment to them, I already said the contrary in previous comments.
BrianDavion wrote: would a normal person? How much of that "love and respect" was real as opposed to geneticly programed or even impelled throuygh subtle psionics?
Also the primarchs grew up away from him etc so there wasn't that connection made eaither.
So why should there be a close emotional attachment between the emperor and most of the primarchs?
Yes, you'd obviously bond with something you created that admired, respected and loved you, especially if you have all the benevolent and selfless characteristics of the Emperor. It wasn't programmed in them because, when Land asked why they call him father he told him the story of pinocchio and how the wooden boy called his make father, they organically came to see the Emperor as such, Angron didn't though so again not programmed. Plus the traitor Primarchs grew to hate the emperor, so its obviously not programmed and is a consequence of the will. I am pointing out that 'a normal person would have an attachment' I didn't say the Emperor had an attachment to them, I already said the contrary in previous comments.
except I'm arguing a normal person having that level of attachment to all of them simply isn't something we should take for granted. Especially as the Emperor isn't entirely benevolent and selfless. As was best described in, I think it was dark Imperium. he loves Humanity as a grand idea, individual people? well.. eggs for the omlet.
BrianDavion wrote: would a normal person? How much of that "love and respect" was real as opposed to geneticly programed or even impelled throuygh subtle psionics?
Also the primarchs grew up away from him etc so there wasn't that connection made eaither.
So why should there be a close emotional attachment between the emperor and most of the primarchs?
Yes, you'd obviously bond with something you created that admired, respected and loved you, especially if you have all the benevolent and selfless characteristics of the Emperor. It wasn't programmed in them because, when Land asked why they call him father he told him the story of pinocchio and how the wooden boy called his make father, they organically came to see the Emperor as such, Angron didn't though so again not programmed. Plus the traitor Primarchs grew to hate the emperor, so its obviously not programmed and is a consequence of the will. I am pointing out that 'a normal person would have an attachment' I didn't say the Emperor had an attachment to them, I already said the contrary in previous comments.
except I'm arguing a normal person having that level of attachment to all of them simply isn't something we should take for granted. Especially as the Emperor isn't entirely benevolent and selfless. As was best described in, I think it was dark Imperium. he loves Humanity as a grand idea, individual people? well.. eggs for the omlet.
Well even the ability to have attachment for a few would still be expected if it weren't the Emperor. The Emperor is entirely selfless, he isn't always benevolent though, but he's far more benevolent than a human no human could sit in torture for 10,000 years for the whole human race. "I think it was dark Imperium. he loves Humanity as a grand idea, individual people? well.. eggs for the omlet." exactly my point, he saw the Primarchs as weapons or eggs for the omlette as you say. My point is that a normal human would have subjective and emotional responses to situations the Emperor doesn't, like with the Primarchs.
w1zard wrote: Throughout the novels I have read he was surprisingly levelheaded for someone who is supposed to be a Genghis Khan expy.
Whoa now, how much do you know about Genghis Khan? He was a brilliant leader, and a very caring and compassionate man. Just not towards his enemies. The Steppe people devoted themselves to him by the hundreds of thousands, and he revolutionized the Mongolian nations culture. He gave birth to the nation of Mongolia, and his army epitomized the tenets of modern warfare. Firepower, mobility, and intelligence.
w1zard wrote: Throughout the novels I have read he was surprisingly levelheaded for someone who is supposed to be a Genghis Khan expy.
Whoa now, how much do you know about Genghis Khan? He was a brilliant leader, and a very caring and compassionate man. Just not towards his enemies. The Steppe people devoted themselves to him by the hundreds of thousands, and he revolutionized the Mongolian nations culture. He gave birth to the nation of Mongolia, and his army epitomized the tenets of modern warfare. Firepower, mobility, and intelligence.
He was not a caring and compassionate man. He had a tendency to take his temper out on prisoners of war and subordinates who failed him, some of whom he had tortured to death. He ordered entire cities butchered if they refused to bend the knee immediately, men, women, and children alike. He intentionally spread plagues and disease by poisoning water sources. He was also genocidal, intentionally slaughtering 3/4 of the population of the Iranian plateau, and 4/5 of the entire population of northern china. He was also one of the most prolific rapists in history, fathering an estimated 2,000 children with captured concubines.
Genghis Khan was a brutal and extremely successful warlord, possibly even the most successful one in human history. He was anything but "caring" and "compassionate", in his line of work those qualities were weaknesses.
w1zard wrote: He was not a caring and compassionate man. He had a tendency to take his temper out on prisoners of war and subordinates who failed him, some of whom he had tortured to death. He ordered entire cities butchered if they refused to bend the knee immediately, men, women, and children alike. He intentionally spread plagues and disease by poisoning water sources. He was also genocidal, intentionally slaughtering 3/4 of the population of the Iranian plateau, and 4/5 of the entire population of northern china. He was also one of the most prolific rapists in history, fathering an estimated 2,000 children with captured concubines.
Genghis Khan was a brutal and extremely successful warlord, possibly even the most successful one in human history. He was anything but "caring" and "compassionate", in his line of work those qualities were weaknesses.
Then all you have heard about was the legacy he left behind to his enemies. He was known for all those things that you mentioned. Some of them blatantly false. Some lies even spread by his armies, on his orders. But he was known by his people to be caring and compassionate. Its one of many reasons why he was so successful at conquering the steppes and beyond. He had the unconditional loyalty of every single one of his men. Even in China, he was respected as a king.
None of anything I mentioned was blatantly false. They are all historical fact, verified by multiple sources that can easily be looked up at your leisure. The 2,000 kids may not be accurate as we have no idea how many children he actually really fathered, but that is our best possible estimation. The low estimates put his offspring's number at around 1,000 while the high estimates put it around 3,000 so the historical community has settled on the middle ground.
LumenPraebeo wrote: ...He had the unconditional loyalty of every single one of his men...
It has been confirmed that all of his top generals were loyal to him on a personal level and that he treated them like family. Unfortunately this doesn't necessarily mean he was "kind" and "compassionate" because mob bosses do this kind of thing as well. Hell, Adolf Hitler was practically worshiped by the S.S, and got Germany to follow him into genocide and the second world war on just sheer charisma alone. Just because people were loyal to him does NOT mean he was a good person.
Yes, because the Chinese had been conquered by him. Hard NOT to respect someone as a king who conquers pretty much your whole known world at that point. It doesn't mean they LIKED being conquered by him.
Look, I think you are letting the "mythos" of history cloud how you perceive Genghis Khan. Was he a skilled general, superb statesman, and perhaps one of the most successful warlords in human history? Yes. Did that mean he had a warm and fluffy personality and that everyone loved him? Most likely not. As evidenced by his army's atrocities, and the atrocities he personally committed (rape) or had committed on his own orders... He was a brutal warlord who subjugated the majority of a continent, took whatever the feth he wanted, and killed anyone who tried to stop him.
This is supposed to be about wisdom not about caring and compassion. I wouldn't confuse those terms with each other. From what I know Temujin was indeed quite a benevolent ruler to those who swore fealty to him including conquered China, I too would question a claim calling him a compassionate man. I don't question his wisdom, however. He seems extraordinarily wise in my opinion. Even in situations when he's ruthless he portrays a deep wisdom of understanding that made him quite effective and scary.
ProwlerPC wrote: This is supposed to be about wisdom not about caring and compassion. I wouldn't confuse those terms with each other. From what I know Temujin was indeed quite a benevolent ruler to those who swore fealty to him including conquered China, I too would question a claim calling him a compassionate man. I don't question his wisdom, however. He seems extraordinarily wise in my opinion. Even in situations when he's ruthless he portrays a deep wisdom of understanding that made him quite effective and scary.
Okay, going off topic with the caring and compassionate thing then. But I say and theorize that he WAS a caring and compassionate man, because I can see why he did things the way he did. I can't say that were I in his position, with the resources and time that he was able to call upon, that I'd do anything differently than him. I simply wouldn't have the courage to NOT go to all lengths possible, bordering on the extreme, to snuff out any and all potential resistance and/or enemies that might come back and bite me in the ass later. I would be the first to say that he was a brutal conqueror, and a cruel and unmerciful warlord when it came to waging war. But I also find it hard to reconcile those character traits with the other character traits when it came to being a king/statesman. He was easily friends with the people around him, and his friends and family genuinely loved him. Yes, I suppose you can say that is relatable to how mob bosses are. Keeping family and business separate from each other. But he also has a deep understanding of pain and suffering, and has gone to great lengths to alleviate as much of it as he could for the people he governed. It wasn't simply that he conquered and he won, and that's why he was Khan. He embodied the ideals that people wanted so very badly but dared not hope for, for a life on the steppe. He did a great many things that most people with his kind of power never bothered to think about. In fact, some would even view those actions as weakness or a waste of resources. So I believe he does have compassion. It just falls short, when he has to bring any measure of military might to resolve a problem.
I would also like to point out that he had a love of culture, and was a patron of both art and innovation. So he wasn't simply a Gork and Mork type of guy, with the depth and consistency of cardboard. Man is a very complicated creature. For someone like him, I think this rings more true than others.
I am also not a believer of the "Great Man" in history. I think most famously "great" men have managers, organizers, and in this case, officers underneath them that elevated these men into the eyes of the world. Often unintentionally, and perhaps even as a side effect of their work. The man in the background who doesn't lay claim to any physical or mental advantage, but has worked for years, and is very adept at his particular set of skills. (skills that make them a nightmare to people like us) That being said, there is no doubt that there are some people in the world who are more intelligent than others, and there are some who are willing to work harder than others. Sometimes there are people who are both. George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, Leonardo Da Vinci, Genghis Khan, and perhaps another dozen or so others. I believe these men are one or both those things.
Mr Nobody wrote: Rogal Dorn was pretty level headed. Well, most of the time. I can't think of any huge blunders before his spiral into self destruction, and that was after enormous emotional trauma.
His name was Konrad Curze and hoo boy did Dorn drop the ball on that one.
Codex was always meant to only be a guideline, never aboslute and wasn't supposed to replace adaptive thinking. And we can see in his Primarch book that good old Roboute knew how to fight Orks quite well.
I was going to say this as well. The codex was a guideline and not an instruction book. Apart from the commands to break the legions into chapters it was more of a "here's what I think works best through all of my long years of experience" kind of thing. The ultramarines turned it into a pseudo-bible once Guilliman was put into stasis.
Not true, he tried to make the codex absolute, to see every possibility and eventuality but failed, he said himself he failed when the wargames (when they were fighting mock salamanders) didn't work out, not surprising the Ultramarines took at as gospel, he didn't foresee that over time the Ultramarines would see it as to be followed explicitly and that the chapter would start being so reverent to their heirlumes.
"My teachings are yet flawed. No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed."
I can't remember which book this is from, I'll look into it but it is pretty clear : the codex is not absolute
Yeah said after he realised he failed. Its from the same short story where he says he failed. Age of darkness was the book. Easy to find the quote as its at the end of the short story.
That quote is from No Know Fear. Which is what the modern interpretation of Guilliman has been going with.
He never wanted the book to be a hard and fast rulebook to war. Calth shows that it would be impossible pretty well.
His name was Konrad Curze and hoo boy did Dorn drop the ball on that one.
Eh, all he did was confront Curze. Curze was the one who attacked Dorn. Hard to blame Dorn for not foreseeing his brother literally tearing chunks out of his flesh and later deciding to go destroy his homeworld. The latter would have happened regardless of what Dorn said anyway.
Now, I haven't read all the HH books, so there will be gaps in my logic. Feel free to fill them in. Obviously, at the beginning, Lorgar was not wise. Easily influenced, pushed around and used faith as a crutch for his weaknesses. As the heresy plays out, the way Lorgar is written seems to change. He's insane, to be sure, but the weaknesses he displayed before seem diminished.
In the short story 'Aurelian', we see a Lorgar that refuses to be manipulated by his fellow primarchs and fallows his own agenda, successfully navigating the various ambitions around the table. Lorgar even shows that he is even a physical threat, quickly and viciously subduing Fulgrim. Sure, Lorgar caught him with a sucker punch, but that's not something we've seen before. Later, Lorgar goes for a bit of a walkabout in the Eye of Terror. He gets to see the ruins of the Eldar and he reflects on if mankind is next. Unlike Horus, Lorgar is a bit cognizant of what siding with chaos really means and accepts the reality of the path he has chosen. You can still argue that he is insane or deluded, but I think the fact that he successfully negotiates and implements daemonic powers puts him a step above the other traitors.
Lorgar also successfully manipulated the war in Ultramar to create the ruinstorm. In another short story, some Word Bearers successfully pierce the ruinstorm to communicate with Lorgar and plead him to return to the war in Ultramar. He promptly dismisses him, explaining that war in Ultramar is no longer his primary concern. Other Primarchs would have remained stuck in Ultramar, obsessing over burning every single planet and seeing Guilliman dead. Lorgar sees the bigger picture and knows when to quit.
Now this can all be wiped away as more books come out. We might see Lorgar make some stupid moves or his plans fall apart.
Basically, heresy Lorgar can potential be considered wise. Or wiser than pro-Imperium Lorgar.
His name was Konrad Curze and hoo boy did Dorn drop the ball on that one.
Eh, all he did was confront Curze. Curze was the one who attacked Dorn. Hard to blame Dorn for not foreseeing his brother literally tearing chunks out of his flesh and later deciding to go destroy his homeworld. The latter would have happened regardless of what Dorn said anyway.
Curze: Fulgrim, life sucks 'cause I keep having these visions of all the Primarchs fighting each other, and they're going to come true.
Fulgrim: Hey Dorne, Curze keeps having visions that the Imperium is gonna split apart, and his visions always come true. Maybe you should talk to him about that.
Dorne: Curze, cut that out. It's impossible that a Primarch would attack ano- *BAM!* *POW*
Years later
Dorne: Garro, it is IMPOSSIBLE that Primarchs would turn on each other.
No, just... no. The man willingly turned into a servant of the chaos gods knowing full well what they were all about, simply because he could not conceive of a universe where he wasn't worshiping a higher power.
The emperor tells Lorgar that he is not a "higher power" so Lorgar starts seeking out a "higher power" to worship. Instead of doing the thing any sane or rational person would do after finding out what chaos has planned for humanity and telling the chaos gods to feth off, he intentionally joins them because they were the closest things he had found to real, actual gods.
Imagine if someone told you that IRL god was actually the devil the entire time. Instead of saying "Yeah I'm not going to be religious then", Lorgar basically says "Well then hand me a robe and start the blood sacrifices because god is god baby."
Someone please tell me that wizards oversimplifying Lorgars fall to Chaos. Tell me Lorgar didn't turn to Chaos literally because he can't handle athiesm.
pm713 wrote: Someone please tell me that wizards oversimplifying Lorgars fall to Chaos. Tell me Lorgar didn't turn to Chaos literally because he can't handle athiesm.
He is grossly over simplifying it, but he isn’t wrong.
Lorgar believed in the primordial truth long before he believed the emperor was a god, that came later with the visions of the emperor coming to colchis, so when rebuffed he just fell on what he knew to be true, blame Kor phaeron for that one, the guy was a full on child abuser by our standards and would regularly beat lorgar as he grew, he also used psychological abuse and manipulation on lorgar... it’s hardly a surprise he was so morally weak when his growth was slowed in such a way, he and angron have that in common which goes a way to explaining his actions in the betrayer.
Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...
BigbyWolf wrote: Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...
given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character
pm713 wrote: Someone please tell me that wizards oversimplifying Lorgars fall to Chaos. Tell me Lorgar didn't turn to Chaos literally because he can't handle athiesm.
He is grossly over simplifying it, but he isn’t wrong.
Lorgar believed in the primordial truth long before he believed the emperor was a god, that came later with the visions of the emperor coming to colchis, so when rebuffed he just fell on what he knew to be true, blame Kor phaeron for that one, the guy was a full on child abuser by our standards and would regularly beat lorgar as he grew, he also used psychological abuse and manipulation on lorgar... it’s hardly a surprise he was so morally weak when his growth was slowed in such a way, he and angron have that in common which goes a way to explaining his actions in the betrayer.
Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."
I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.
Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."
I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.
Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,
This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,
Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."
I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.
Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,
This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,
That’s a very popular misconception, the emperor did tell his primarchs about the warp, some more than others, the kicker is that he lied about it’s nature, that’s why when several legions encountered warp creatures they thought they were just extra dimensional Xenos.
Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."
I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.
Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,
This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,
The Emperor did explain what they were, like Formosa said, when Ra asked him why he didn't tell the Primarchs of the dark gods the Emperor told him "That which we call the warp is a universe alongside our own, seething with limitless, alien hostility. The Primarchs have always known this. What difference would it have made had If labelled the warps entities 'daemons' or 'dark gods'"
Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."
I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.
Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,
This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,
That’s a very popular misconception, the emperor did tell his primarchs about the warp, some more than others, the kicker is that he lied about it’s nature, that’s why when several legions encountered warp creatures they thought they were just extra dimensional Xenos.
Personally I think if you fail to explain it properly then it counts as not telling them about it. Demons are far more than just aliens who live in a different dimension. It's like saying "This is a nuclear missile. It's just like your bolter but bigger and it goes further." It's true in a basic way but not really an explanation.
I don't think the fact he considers the Primarchs tools an excuse. Tools need maintaining and proper information to work depending on how complex they are. A missile is a tool but you can't just plonk it down somewhere and expect it to be useful.
Wow. It makes much more sense with the upbringing taken into account but still....just wow. It occurs to me that a lot of the Heresy would have been avoided if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs "I'm concerned about your wellbeing guys. So Malcador is now a therapist. Vulkan your session is tomorrow."
I know the Emperor didn't actually care about them but he was just bad taking care of things.
Well, actually the Emperor could have saved everyone a lot of grief by explaining to the Peimarch what the warp is and what lives there... Telling them about the powers that could corrupt them and arm them against it all... No, he just went to Terra to work on a secret project..,
This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,
That’s a very popular misconception, the emperor did tell his primarchs about the warp, some more than others, the kicker is that he lied about it’s nature, that’s why when several legions encountered warp creatures they thought they were just extra dimensional Xenos.
Personally I think if you fail to explain it properly then it counts as not telling them about it. Demons are far more than just aliens who live in a different dimension. It's like saying "This is a nuclear missile. It's just like your bolter but bigger and it goes further." It's true in a basic way but not really an explanation.
I don't think the fact he considers the Primarchs tools an excuse. Tools need maintaining and proper information to work depending on how complex they are. A missile is a tool but you can't just plonk it down somewhere and expect it to be useful.
Not really, he explained they were a threat and were not to be trusted and that you couldn't make deals with him. That's all the information they needed to hear. Magnus new they were not to be trusted yet he made a deal with them, I think the Primarchs that turned were destined to turn, They were all tested, some went willingly others took pressure to make them turn, but I don't buy the ignorance defense. In Davin, Horus new what he was giving away, he wanted to live and he was willing to give away anything to live. Otherwise they would all have turned if it was a matter of ignorance, the other 9 knew that Chaos were not to be trusted even though they were offered power etc.
Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.
I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.
How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.
I would make a vote for Russ. Out of the all the Primarchs, he was the first to realise that he and his legion were tools, not sons or heroes. He knew his place and accepted it without any of the drama of the other Primarchs.
pm713 wrote: Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.
I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.
How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.
It’s not stated in most cases but from memory
Peturabo: the eye constantly watching him, clearly instilled an air of paranoia
Sanguinius: decent of angels and later ruinstorm covers it.
Horus: pretty well documented
Angron: depending on if the old story is still canon, he was tempted after he killed a load of eldar that went to kill him after he left the pod, otherwise it was when lorgar started his ritual.
Fulgrim: lol... tempted... nope, he swan dived into chaos as soon as he knew what it was... sword helped.
Lion el’johnson: the most tempted of all the primarchs, literally every day of his life before he was found, again when kairos (possibly) tried to offer him power and glory.
Mortarion: mortarion was by degrees of his own doing, later when the destroyer hive infected him and his legion, oddly he has still never fully embraced it and still resists to a degree.. that’s willpower (ref: dark imperium)
Curze: unknown whether his visions were from chaos, if so it drove him mad.
Jaghatai: unknown
Corax: unknown
Dorn: unknown
Guilliman: unknown, possibly when konor was murdered.
Alpharius: unknown, possibly the cabals vision was somehow manipulated.
Lorgar: pretty much from the get go, but mainly when the emperor rebuffed him.
pm713 wrote: Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.
I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.
How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.
The most notable examples oif loyalist priamrchs being tested occurs in the novel ruinstorm. basicly chaos set up scenerios where each primarch had chances to screw up and accept chaos, some had harder tests then others true,
It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.
The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)
pm713 wrote: Just saying they can't be trusted doesn't really demonstrate that they're literally your desire given form and just how corrupting they are. Chaos is on a level of untrustworthiness of its own.
I'm not saying ignorance is a defence for the Primarchs who fell because they all had some other bigger factor to push them into actual Chaos following except Magnus who largely did it to himself.
How were they all tested? I'm not familiar with all of them.
Its well established that 'all' of them were tested. Sanguinius was by Khorne, Girlyman was on his flagship etc, its well known they all were.
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Duskweaver wrote: It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.
The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)
Most people that say the Emperor is a hypocrite or charlatan etc. do so, based on how their own legions and legions Primarchs were treated. Through reading the lore I've always seen the Emperor as completely selfless and that he only cares about advancing and protecting the human race. He doesn't not care about killing millions of humans and using psykers for his golden throne, he just does whatever he has to do to save mankind. He'd kill 99% of mankind if it meant saving the species.
Duskweaver wrote: It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.
The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)
It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see.
The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.
A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.
Duskweaver wrote: It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.
The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)
It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.
The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.
A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.
Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them that the entities of the warp can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.
Duskweaver wrote: It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.
The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)
It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.
The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.
A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.
Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them they can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.
That's part of the issue. They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart. A better way of doing would be going "The Warp entities are your desires given sentience, they can and will destroy you. You'll think you can outsmart you but that's the first mistake. See that Warp Storm? The one by Cadia? That's most of the remains of the Eldar Empire which would crush us like insects. They got cocky and now they're refugees on the verge of extinction." It's a five minute conversation. It would have taken less than two hours to do that with every Primarch. A small price to pay for not ruining almost everything.
Duskweaver wrote: It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.
The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)
It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.
The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.
A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.
Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them they can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.
That's part of the issue. They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart. A better way of doing would be going "The Warp entities are your desires given sentience, they can and will destroy you. You'll think you can outsmart you but that's the first mistake. See that Warp Storm? The one by Cadia? That's most of the remains of the Eldar Empire which would crush us like insects. They got cocky and now they're refugees on the verge of extinction." It's a five minute conversation. It would have taken less than two hours to do that with every Primarch. A small price to pay for not ruining almost everything.
No the Emperor said himself all the Primarchs knew of the extents of dangers from the warp. he created the labriarius solely to teach the dangers of the warp.
Think you getting that mixed up Delvarus, the emperor did not create the librarius, Magnus sanguinius and Jaghatai did, they petitioned for its creation.
The emperor almost certainly allowed psykers in the legions prior to “librarians” though.
Formosa wrote: Think you getting that mixed up Delvarus, the emperor did not create the librarius, Magnus sanguinius and Jaghatai did, they petitioned for its creation.
The emperor almost certainly allowed psykers in the legions prior to “librarians” though.
Formosa wrote: Think you getting that mixed up Delvarus, the emperor did not create the librarius, Magnus sanguinius and Jaghatai did, they petitioned for its creation.
The emperor almost certainly allowed psykers in the legions prior to “librarians” though.
Duskweaver wrote: It's been an important part of the lore since the original Realms of Chaos books in the Rogue Trader era that knowledge and understanding of Chaos is itself corrupting. The human mind cannot fully comprehend Chaos / the Warp, and even trying to comprehend it is incredibly dangerous for all but the most strong-willed.
The Emperor keeping details of the Warp, daemons and the Chaos Gods secret is not an example of him being stupid or short-sighted. It's the exact opposite of that. He quite sensibly didn't want to risk his best generals getting corrupted by mucking about with Chaos, and "It's dangerous, so don't go mucking about with it" really should have been sufficient warning. They'd all sworn fealty to him. That means they were supposed to follow his orders.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
(All of which makes Lorgar, of all people, the wisest primarch. Which is annoying, because he's my least favourite primarch by quite a wide margin.)
It's pretty clear that Primarchs are very much not human. Even then it's pretty clear he didn't really make it clear how dangerous it is. The swearing fealty thing isn't an excuse either as I can think of three Primarchs with pretty big loyalty issues a blind man could see. What kind of moron would ignore that warning, thinking he didn't explain that as best he could so lets go find out from the things we aren't supposed to trust.
The central tragedy is supposed to be that but gets undermined by the lore showing that he really isn't some grand saviour.
A comment about the Angron and Eldar thing - That's always bothered me, how hard is it to kill a child? I mean really. I know the Eldar had recently fallen from the only significant power in existence at the time but killing a child should not fail that badly.
Clarity isn't the issue, the Primarchs are not children, the Emperor told them they can't be trusted and you can stay whole while making bargains with them. How in any way shape or form is that going to make a super human mind think 'well what does he mean by trust, or whole, lets find out'. Its a pretty clear warning. People thin the Primarchs are children who can't take responsibility for their actions unless the Emperor gives them hour long seminars of the dangers of the galaxy.
That's part of the issue. They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart. A better way of doing would be going "The Warp entities are your desires given sentience, they can and will destroy you. You'll think you can outsmart you but that's the first mistake. See that Warp Storm? The one by Cadia? That's most of the remains of the Eldar Empire which would crush us like insects. They got cocky and now they're refugees on the verge of extinction." It's a five minute conversation. It would have taken less than two hours to do that with every Primarch. A small price to pay for not ruining almost everything.
Plus if this wasn't a warning I don't know what is ""Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." The Emperor at Nikaea. Magnus himself shows that he knew the dangers “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman
That’s true Delvarus but the whole Nikaea incedent has been thrown into a new light after first lord of the imperium and.. forget its name, the one where they find mortarion.
It seems pretty clear the thousand sons were set up to fail in the first place and had the heresy not happened they would just be one of the “unnamed” legions, then some other legion, probably the word bearers would suffer the emperors wrath for whatever contrived reason he found... likely they were too religious.
As much as I don’t like it, the primarch novels and first lord of the imperium seem to be pushing the overarching story that the emperor planned to off the legions one by one and then have the remnants off each other... but chaos happened...
Formosa wrote: That’s true Delvarus but the whole Nikaea incedent has been thrown into a new light after first lord of the imperium and.. forget its name, the one where they find mortarion.
It seems pretty clear the thousand sons were set up to fail in the first place and had the heresy not happened they would just be one of the “unnamed” legions, then some other legion, probably the word bearers would suffer the emperors wrath for whatever contrived reason he found... likely they were too religious.
As much as I don’t like it, the primarch novels and first lord of the imperium seem to be pushing the overarching story that the emperor planned to off the legions one by one and then have the remnants off each other... but chaos happened...
How were they set up to fail? I have to disagree about it being a contrived reason, it was due to Russ and Mortarion etc. that brought the council of Nikaea to bear, I think the Emperor jumped on that chance to censure Magnus but not doing it himself as Magnus would revolt at that decision because the Emperor would think that Magnus would see him as a hypocrite, but Magnus had bargained with chaos and consorted with daemons letting his legion use them as familiars, It wasn't contrived he had a good reason for it. The word bearers already suffered the Emperors wrath by destroying Monarchia but yeah they'd probably get censured too. I think the Emperor probably was going to kill them off, they couldn't be diplomats like the Emperor said he wanted of them after the crusade, they were too prideful and war hungry. Think of all the Astartes that became traitors/daemon princes before the Heresy, they all turned because they were sent to planets to lead politically or train new scouts etc. The nurgle daemon rprince Eugen Temba on the moon of Davin for instance.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No the Emperor said himself all the Primarchs knew of the extents of dangers from the warp. he created the labriarius solely to teach the dangers of the warp.
This is not true at all. pm713 and I may not agree with the amount of culpability Magnus has for his own downfall but we do agree that the Primarchs had no fething idea what chaos was or was capable of.
Even Lorgar, the most religious of the Primarchs and the most likely to know about the chaos gods had no idea what they were or even that they existed until he made his pilgrimage to the eye of terror.
Not knowing about the true nature of chaos and daemons doomed many of the Primarchs to fall because they were not prepared for the corrupting influence and did not guard themselves against it.
pm713 wrote: ...They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart....
This, 1000x times this. "These creatures are not trustworthy" is an understatement so massive that it is dangerous in itself. This warning implies you can still deal with them so long as you are careful and expect betrayal at every turn, but that isn't how chaos works. Once you start down that road your soul is forfeit, and there is NO escaping from it no matter how clever you think you are.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
I disagree completely. Sure there were some Primarchs who were pretty much doomed to fall to chaos, like Curze. Others were pushed to chaos directly through the emperor's actions (or inactions) like Angron. Others fell because they did not understand the true nature of chaos until it was too late like Magnus and Fulgrim.
The emperor was planning on pulling another Thunder Warriors with the Primarchs and space marines anyway. The chaos gods seized that and utilized it to create the situation in which the Horus Heresy was possible. However, the fault for the Horus heresy lies squarely on the emperor's shoulders. In all of his planning and scheming he forgot to take into account the human element. He was so powerful and so "above" everyone else that he forgot to take into account how real humans think and feel and how that alters their behavior and motivations. In fact he misjudged so badly that it very well may have doomed the very race he was trying to save.
Call these things "human failings" if you wish, but I personally believe these things are what defines humans as human, and set us apart from things like daemons. They are a strength, not a weakness. The fact that the emperor couldn't even understand why a son would need to feel loved by his father speaks volumes about how far disconnected he was from the human condition.
BigbyWolf wrote: Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...
given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character
Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...
BigbyWolf wrote: Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...
given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character
Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...
We know the broad strokes of what happened yes. details like "Horus begged the emperor to kill him in a moment of clarity" is something I'd avoid stating as a definative fact. although Wolfsbane DOES have some evidance to suggest that may be what happens. To be honest I hope not. Horus is more intreasting if he choose and was complicant all along with his damnnationas opposed to someone who was just posessed
w1zard wrote: I disagree completely. Sure there were some Primarchs who were pretty much doomed to fall to chaos, like Curze. Others were pushed to chaos directly through the emperor's actions (or inactions) like Angron. Others fell because they did not understand the true nature of chaos until it was too late like Magnus and Fulgrim.
No primarch fell because they had "too little understanding of Chaos". There is no level of knowledge of Chaos that makes you immune to corruption. Knowledge of Chaos is itself corrupting, as has been established as a core part of the concept of Chaos in the WH/40K mythos since the beginning. That's why almost all Inquisitors who live long enough end up as radicals, and why the Inquisition and the Grey Knights mind-wipe or kill people who have had contact with daemons. If the Emperor had told the primarchs exactly what Chaos, daemons and the Dark Gods were, it would have caused more (perhaps all) of them to 'fall'.
According to Dark Imperium, even Guilliman is tempted by Chaos every time he teleports, because being shunted through the Warp gives him an inkling of the true nature of his soul and how it relates to the Warp. Guilliman states outright that he would end up damned if he allowed himself to accept the 'enlightenment' that his own soul was effectively just another Warp entity.
So let me be absolutely clear. If the Emperor had actually told the primarchs everything we as omniscient outside observers know about souls, the Warp, daemons and Chaos in the 40K setting, then most or all of them would have ended up joining the Dark Gods. Keeping them ignorant was the best thing the Emperor could do to reduce the chances of them falling.
The emperor was planning on pulling another Thunder Warriors with the Primarchs and space marines anyway.
So what? Only a fool would keep a bunch of transhuman supersoldiers around once they were no longer necessary. I'm not claiming the Emperor is nice, just that he is not an idiot. Think of him as Anasurimbor Kellhus, not as Hippy-Space-Jesus. That humanity's would-be saviour is an inhuman monster is also a core part of the tragedy of the setting.
The chaos gods seized that and utilized it to create the situation in which the Horus Heresy was possible. However, the fault for the Horus heresy lies squarely on the emperor's shoulders.
The Chaos Gods would just have exploited something else. It was never actually possible for the Emperor to succeed.
In all of his planning and scheming he forgot to take into account the human element. He was so powerful and so "above" everyone else that he forgot to take into account how real humans think and feel and how that alters their behavior and motivations. In fact he misjudged so badly that it very well may have doomed the very race he was trying to save.
The Emperor does seem bad at understanding human nature for someone who has been hiding among them since 8000BC, until you realise that he's not making his decisions based on his understanding of people, but rather on his prophetic visions. He sees multiple possible futures and then has to try and guide events toward the best (or rather least awful) one. Whether living weapon #16 is going to get pissy about being sidelined in favour of actual humans or not probably seems like a minor, even inconsequential, detail on the sort of timescales the Emperor looks at.
And it's pretty likely that the Emperor's visions were being subtly edited by Tzeentch. So, again, he never really had a chance.
Call these things "human failings" if you wish, but I personally believe these things are what defines humans as human, and set us apart from things like daemons.
You're right that those things make us human, but not that they "set us apart from daemons". They are what daemons are literally made of. That is precisely why humanity cannot be 'saved' from Chaos. Anything other than complete selflessness and emotionlessness opens you up to Chaos. To be properly human is to be already half in Chaos' corner.
To digress slightly, it is possible the Emperor is called "The Anathema" by daemons because he is the exception to the rule: an (apparent) human who has no Chaos in his soul, no selfishness or desire or emotion that daemons can get a hook into. He isn't a person, really, but an embodiment of his mission to save humanity whatever the cost. But that also makes him fundamentally inhuman. A monster.
Grey Knights are similar, a sort of pale echo of the Emperor. And they're pretty monstrous too. Again, this is the tragedy of the setting. To be a normal human who loves his/her children, has hopes and desires, wants to better his/her life and so on... is to be already on the road to damnation. Humanity can't be saved from itself.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think the codex was very unwise, to think you could codify war, especially when your most numerous of enemies have no real tactics other than strapping rockets to their backs and flying into the enemies with shootas and choppas lol
He didn't codify it to one set thing though. It was to be adapted and adjusted as needed. More of organizating marines to work roughly same. Not really that different to what is in real world. you have multiple countries looking for more unified organizations and equipment to make working together easier.
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ChaosDad wrote: This has nothing to do with the wisdom of the Primarchs, but with the fact that the big E, by being above it all and considering his sons as purely tools to be used, is the architect of the Heresy and of his own downfall.,,
Seeing he wanted astartes to kill each other to get rid of them ala thunderwarriors no surprise. HH was intentional thing by the big E.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No the Emperor said himself all the Primarchs knew of the extents of dangers from the warp. he created the labriarius solely to teach the dangers of the warp.
This is not true at all. pm713 and I may not agree with the amount of culpability Magnus has for his own downfall but we do agree that the Primarchs had no fething idea what chaos was or was capable of.
Even Lorgar, the most religious of the Primarchs and the most likely to know about the chaos gods had no idea what they were or even that they existed until he made his pilgrimage to the eye of terror.
Not knowing about the true nature of chaos and daemons doomed many of the Primarchs to fall because they were not prepared for the corrupting influence and did not guard themselves against it.
pm713 wrote: ...They're people who are so smart, powerful and charismatic you can dump them on a planet and they'll be able to unite it, create a loyal following and dramatically improve things there given time. Compared to what they spent their lives around they're demigods. So saying "it'll cost you and they're untrustworthy" isn't much. Paying something is part of any deal and the fact that they're untrustworthy means nothing when a person reasonably believes they're incredibly smart....
This, 1000x times this. "These creatures are not trustworthy" is an understatement so massive that it is dangerous in itself. This warning implies you can still deal with them so long as you are careful and expect betrayal at every turn, but that isn't how chaos works. Once you start down that road your soul is forfeit, and there is NO escaping from it no matter how clever you think you are.
The central tragedy of 40K is not that the Emperor was a charlatan, or just another power-hungry tyrant, or an idiot who screwed up and doomed humanity. The tragedy is that he really was humanity's last, best hope for salvation, and that he failed because humanity cannot be saved from its own failings.
I disagree completely. Sure there were some Primarchs who were pretty much doomed to fall to chaos, like Curze. Others were pushed to chaos directly through the emperor's actions (or inactions) like Angron. Others fell because they did not understand the true nature of chaos until it was too late like Magnus and Fulgrim.
The emperor was planning on pulling another Thunder Warriors with the Primarchs and space marines anyway. The chaos gods seized that and utilized it to create the situation in which the Horus Heresy was possible. However, the fault for the Horus heresy lies squarely on the emperor's shoulders. In all of his planning and scheming he forgot to take into account the human element. He was so powerful and so "above" everyone else that he forgot to take into account how real humans think and feel and how that alters their behavior and motivations. In fact he misjudged so badly that it very well may have doomed the very race he was trying to save.
Call these things "human failings" if you wish, but I personally believe these things are what defines humans as human, and set us apart from things like daemons. They are a strength, not a weakness. The fact that the emperor couldn't even understand why a son would need to feel loved by his father speaks volumes about how far disconnected he was from the human condition.
Magnus knew exactly what he was doing “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Magnus knew exactly what he was doing “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman
Yes, but again, he thought he was saving the Imperium by warning the emperor of Horus' betrayal, even if it meant that he would get into huge trouble for it later. Magnus had no idea that the emperor was working on the human webway, nor that making deals with chaos would mean selling his soul and the souls of his legion... In fact him saying that the "consequences would be his alone to bear" pretty strongly implies that Magnus thought that what he was doing would have no effect on the wellbeing of his legion whatsoever.
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Duskweaver wrote: No primarch fell because they had "too little understanding of Chaos". There is no level of knowledge of Chaos that makes you immune to corruption. Knowledge of Chaos is itself corrupting, as has been established as a core part of the concept of Chaos in the WH/40K mythos since the beginning. That's why almost all Inquisitors who live long enough end up as radicals, and why the Inquisition and the Grey Knights mind-wipe or kill people who have had contact with daemons. If the Emperor had told the primarchs exactly what Chaos, daemons and the Dark Gods were, it would have caused more (perhaps all) of them to 'fall'.
According to Dark Imperium, even Guilliman is tempted by Chaos every time he teleports, because being shunted through the Warp gives him an inkling of the true nature of his soul and how it relates to the Warp. Guilliman states outright that he would end up damned if he allowed himself to accept the 'enlightenment' that his own soul was effectively just another Warp entity.
So let me be absolutely clear. If the Emperor had actually told the primarchs everything we as omniscient outside observers know about souls, the Warp, daemons and Chaos in the 40K setting, then most or all of them would have ended up joining the Dark Gods. Keeping them ignorant was the best thing the Emperor could do to reduce the chances of them falling.
I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.
The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos. They do things like use the blood of battle sisters in rituals to summon demons and yet they remain uncorrupted. The Grey Knights are also far from emotionless, in fact I remember a certain Grey Knight Grandmaster getting pretty pissed off at the Dark Angels chapter master and an Imperial Guard Colonel in one story.
So what? Only a fool would keep a bunch of transhuman supersoldiers around once they were no longer necessary. I'm not claiming the Emperor is nice, just that he is not an idiot. Think of him as Anasurimbor Kellhus, not as Hippy-Space-Jesus. That humanity's would-be saviour is an inhuman monster is also a core part of the tragedy of the setting.
Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.
You're right that those things make us human, but not that they "set us apart from daemons". They are what daemons are literally made of. That is precisely why humanity cannot be 'saved' from Chaos. Anything other than complete selflessness and emotionlessness opens you up to Chaos. To be properly human is to be already half in Chaos' corner.
No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually, but it DOES offer a vector by which your soul can be infected by chaos if you aren't careful. I also disagree with your assessment that anyone who lives long enough will eventually fall to chaos (ala inquisitors turning radical). Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.
Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.
To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.
EDIT: All commissars are taught about the chaos gods in training including their names, areas of corruption, symbols, behaviors of their worshippers, and how each one likes to corrupt mortals. (SOURCE: Ciaphas Cain Hero of the Imperium). This is done so that commissars can spot the influence of the ruinous powers before it is too late. I'm sure there are some commissars who fall to chaos but it is extremely uncommon. This is further proof that your assertion that educating the primarchs about chaos would have caused them all to turn. Or that simple "knowledge" about chaos is corrupting in itself. Hell Cain at one point explains everything to a room full of imperial guard officers, (with inquisitorial approval) and to my knowledge none of them ended up turning.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Magnus knew exactly what he was doing “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman
Yes, but again, he thought he was saving the Imperium by warning the emperor of Horus' betrayal, even if it meant that he would get into huge trouble for it later. Magnus had no idea that the emperor was working on the human webway, nor that making deals with chaos would mean selling his soul and the souls of his legion... In fact him saying that the "consequences would be his alone to bear" pretty strongly implies that Magnus thought that what he was doing would have no effect on the wellbeing of his legion whatsoever.
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Duskweaver wrote: No primarch fell because they had "too little understanding of Chaos". There is no level of knowledge of Chaos that makes you immune to corruption. Knowledge of Chaos is itself corrupting, as has been established as a core part of the concept of Chaos in the WH/40K mythos since the beginning. That's why almost all Inquisitors who live long enough end up as radicals, and why the Inquisition and the Grey Knights mind-wipe or kill people who have had contact with daemons. If the Emperor had told the primarchs exactly what Chaos, daemons and the Dark Gods were, it would have caused more (perhaps all) of them to 'fall'.
According to Dark Imperium, even Guilliman is tempted by Chaos every time he teleports, because being shunted through the Warp gives him an inkling of the true nature of his soul and how it relates to the Warp. Guilliman states outright that he would end up damned if he allowed himself to accept the 'enlightenment' that his own soul was effectively just another Warp entity.
So let me be absolutely clear. If the Emperor had actually told the primarchs everything we as omniscient outside observers know about souls, the Warp, daemons and Chaos in the 40K setting, then most or all of them would have ended up joining the Dark Gods. Keeping them ignorant was the best thing the Emperor could do to reduce the chances of them falling.
I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.
The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos. They do things like use the blood of battle sisters in rituals to summon demons and yet they remain uncorrupted. The Grey Knights are also far from emotionless, in fact I remember a certain Grey Knight Grandmaster getting pretty pissed off at the Dark Angels chapter master and an Imperial Guard Colonel in one story.
So what? Only a fool would keep a bunch of transhuman supersoldiers around once they were no longer necessary. I'm not claiming the Emperor is nice, just that he is not an idiot. Think of him as Anasurimbor Kellhus, not as Hippy-Space-Jesus. That humanity's would-be saviour is an inhuman monster is also a core part of the tragedy of the setting.
Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.
You're right that those things make us human, but not that they "set us apart from daemons". They are what daemons are literally made of. That is precisely why humanity cannot be 'saved' from Chaos. Anything other than complete selflessness and emotionlessness opens you up to Chaos. To be properly human is to be already half in Chaos' corner.
No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually, but it DOES offer a vector by which your soul can be infected by chaos if you aren't careful. I also disagree with your assessment that anyone who lives long enough will eventually fall to chaos (ala inquisitors turning radical). Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.
Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.
To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.
Magnus trying to save the Imperium is irrelevant, that's why he disobeyed, but we are talking about whether the Primarchs knew of the dangers, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the consequences. He knew exactly how dangerous making deals with the great ocean was, you are kinda clutching at straws now trying to defend him. I've given the best evidence of Magnus knowing what he was doing, straight from his mouth about making bargains with the great ocean and still you are just saying 'yeah but the Emperor still didn't explain it.'
Magnus trying to save the Imperium is irrelevant, that's why he disobeyed, but we are talking about whether the Primarchs knew of the dangers, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the consequences. He knew exactly how dangerous making deals with the great ocean was, you are kinda clutching at straws now trying to defend him. I've given the best evidence of Magnus knowing what he was doing, straight from his mouth about making bargains with the great ocean and still you are just saying 'yeah but the Emperor still didn't explain it.'
Knowing something is dangerous is one thing. Knowing exactly WHY something is dangerous and how to avoid that danger is something completely different.
Say you don't know what electricity is and I point at an electrical cable and say "that is dangerous, don't touch it". You nod and keep away from it, but one day while doing something unrelated you accidentally touch it, nothing happens so you figure it's ok to touch from then on but are still wary because you were told that it is "dangerous" in some way but you aren't sure why. You start touching it every day to move it in the process of doing other things and then it starts becoming normal for you. Then one day you try to move the cable to do something else and end up touching it on a part where the insulation is worn off and you electrocute yourself.
Do I really have the right to start screaming at you that "I told you not to touch it" when I didn't even explain to you why it was dangerous to touch or what it would do to you if you touched the cable in the wrong spot?
Formosa wrote: Fulgrim: he swan dived into chaos as soon as he knew what it was.
And here we have why Big E gave damage control description of chaos (ie. powerful extra-dimensional xenos which can not be bargained with; which is true) and not chaos side of the story (if you vote for Vedros all your wildest dreams will come true).
Magnus trying to save the Imperium is irrelevant, that's why he disobeyed, but we are talking about whether the Primarchs knew of the dangers, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the consequences. He knew exactly how dangerous making deals with the great ocean was, you are kinda clutching at straws now trying to defend him. I've given the best evidence of Magnus knowing what he was doing, straight from his mouth about making bargains with the great ocean and still you are just saying 'yeah but the Emperor still didn't explain it.'
Knowing something is dangerous is one thing. Knowing exactly WHY something is dangerous and how to avoid that danger is something completely different.
Say you don't know what electricity is and I point at an electrical cable and say "that is dangerous, don't touch it". You nod and keep away from it, but one day while doing something unrelated you accidentally touch it, nothing happens so you figure it's ok to touch from then on but are still wary because you were told that it is "dangerous" in some way but you aren't sure why. You start touching it every day to move it in the process of doing other things and then it starts becoming normal for you. Then one day you try to move the cable to do something else and end up touching it on a part where the insulation is worn off and you electrocute yourself.
Do I really have the right to start screaming at you that "I told you not to touch it" when I didn't even explain to you why it was dangerous to touch or what it would do to you if you touched the cable in the wrong spot?
Magnus, didn't 'accidentally' make a deal with Chaos. It doesn't matter how hard you try you cannot justify what Magnus did and you cannot say he didn't know the consequences, he did and said it himself. I think you must be biased because you like Magnus or collect thousand sons, because you can't justify his actions or say he didn't know what he was doing. He was told about the dangers, he explicitly said how dangerous making bargains with chaos is, its just getting silly now.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Magnus, didn't 'accidentally' make a deal with Chaos. It doesn't matter how hard you try you cannot justify what Magnus did and you cannot say he didn't know the consequences, he did and said it himself.
You are correct, Magnus did not "accidentally" make a deal with chaos. He did so intentionally. BUT, he was not aware of true dangers behind dealing with chaos because the emperor never explained that to him. For example, Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change in his legion. In exchange he gave up his eye. He thought that was the end of it, but he didn't realize that even dealing with chaos gives it a foothold in your soul. Magnus was damned as soon as he made that deal with Tzeentch because now chaos had its claws in him at that point and wasn't going to let him go. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch again later to get enough power to break through the psychic defenses on Terra, he did so thinking that no price was too high to pay in order to warn the emperor about Horus' betrayal. Magnus didn't know that the emperor was working on the webway project and thus had no idea that the "price" was going to be the wrecking of humanity's best hope against chaos.
The emperor's warnings about chaos were vague and cryptic. Simply saying that warp entities are "dangerous and untrustworthy" is a dangerous understatement, because all xenos are "dangerous and untrustworthy" but daemons and the chaos gods are far more insidious then that and cannot be dealt with in the same way as other xenos. The primarchs underestimated the danger posed by chaos because the emperor never explained its true nature. Because they underestimated chaos they were consumed by it.
Magnus thought he would be able to pay the "price" of dealing with chaos, but he never really understood what the "price" was. It was his soul, the lives and reputation of his legion, and the possible future of humanity. We as readers know the true nature of chaos and why treating with it is so bad but the legions and the primarchs didn't. They were unaware that the chaos gods even existed, and thought that daemons were just unpleasant aliens from a different dimension. Hell, the thousand sons didn't even understand their summoned tutelaries were daemons.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think you must be biased because you like Magnus or collect thousand sons, because you can't justify his actions or say he didn't know what he was doing.
I do not collect, and have never collected Thousand Sons, I am an Imperial Guard player. The Thousand Sons aren't even my favorite traitor legion.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Magnus, didn't 'accidentally' make a deal with Chaos. It doesn't matter how hard you try you cannot justify what Magnus did and you cannot say he didn't know the consequences, he did and said it himself.
You are correct, Magnus did not "accidentally" make a deal with chaos. He did so intentionally. BUT, he was not aware of true dangers behind dealing with chaos because the emperor never explained that to him. For example, Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change in his legion. In exchange he gave up his eye. He thought that was the end of it, but he didn't realize that even dealing with chaos gives it a foothold in your soul. Magnus was damned as soon as he made that deal with Tzeentch because now chaos had its claws in him at that point and wasn't going to let him go. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch again later to get enough power to break through the psychic defenses on Terra, he did so thinking that no price was too high to pay in order to warn the emperor about Horus' betrayal. Magnus didn't know that the emperor was working on the webway project and thus had no idea that the "price" was going to be the wrecking of humanity's best hope against chaos.
The emperor's warnings about chaos were vague and cryptic. Simply saying that warp entities are "dangerous and untrustworthy" is a dangerous understatement, because all xenos are "dangerous and untrustworthy" but daemons and the chaos gods are far more insidious then that and cannot be dealt with in the same way as other xenos. The Primarchs underestimated the danger posed by chaos because the emperor never explained its true nature. Because they underestimated chaos they were consumed by it.
Magnus thought he would be able to pay the "price" of dealing with chaos, but he never really understood what the "price" was. It was his soul, the lives and reputation of his legion, and the possible future of humanity.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think you must be biased because you like Magnus or collect thousand sons, because you can't justify his actions or say he didn't know what he was doing.
I do not collect, and have never collected Thousand Sons, I am an Imperial Guard player. The Thousand Sons aren't even my favorite traitor legion.
The Emperor to Everyone at Nikaea "Peering into the darkness to gain knowledge of the warp is fraught with peril, for it is an inconstant place of shifting reality, capricious lies and untruths. The seeker after truth must have a care he is not deceived, for false knowledge is far more dangerous than ignorance. All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the short cut, the quick route to power, and it is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways. True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a powerful person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and eventually destroy all he has built.“I have walked paths no man can know and faced the unnameable creatures of the warp. I understand all too well the secrets and dangers that lurk in its hidden darkness. Such things are not for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be. The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further. Only death and damnation await those who pry too deeply into secrets not meant for mortals." "I see now I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Hence-forth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.”Gasps of astonishment spread through the amphitheatre, and Ahriman felt his skin chill at the absolute nature of the Emperor’s. After everything that had been said, he couldn’t believe the judgement had gone against them.The Emperor wasn’t finished, and thunder rolled in his voice.“Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Death and damnation.... how could he warn him more. What difference does it make if he called them daemons or the Chaos gods? Magnus new fine well of the dangers of making a deal with Chaos after Nikaea and he still made a deal to travel through the Warp to the Emperor. The warnings were fine, Magnus craved power and was arrogant, that's why he continued to use sorcery, not because he wasn't warned properly.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...Magnus new fine well of the dangers of making a deal with Chaos after Nikaea and he still made a deal to travel through the Warp to the Emperor.
Yes, and Magnus was willing to pay "whatever the price was" because in his mind, warning the emperor about Horus was more important than anything else. He was wrong, so very wrong.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...Magnus new fine well of the dangers of making a deal with Chaos after Nikaea and he still made a deal to travel through the Warp to the Emperor.
Yes, and Magnus was willing to pay "whatever the price was" because in his mind, warning the emperor about Horus was more important than anything else. He was wrong.
Exactly, he knew exactly what he was doing and the dangers, he thought he was more knowledgeable and stronger than the Emperor so he did what wanted. He boasted that in his quarters no one could listen in not even the Emperor, when he found the lattice (webway) he was so proud that he knew and the Emperor didn't, even after Nikaea before he broke into the webway he still allowed his legion to use sorcery so he didn't turn to sorcery just to warn the Emperor because he thought it was important.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...he thought he was more knowledgeable and stronger than the Emperor so he did what wanted. He boasted that in his quarters no one could listen in not even the Emperor, when he found the lattice (webway) he was so proud that he knew and the Emperor didn't...
Yes. I'm not debating that.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...even after Nikaea before he broke into the webway he still allowed his legion to use sorcery so he didn't turn to sorcery just to warn the Emperor because he thought it was important.
No, this is wrong. After Nikea they still used their psychic powers but they stopped with the worst excesses of their sorcery... which is why Magnus using sorcery again to contact the emperor was such a big deal. It was his first real "breaking" of the edict after Nikea.
No, no, no, no! He knew it was DANGEROUS, of course he did because he lost an eye experimenting before. He did NOT know that doing so would damn his soul into service of chaos gods (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED), or that it would destroy the emperor's webway project (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED).
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...he thought he was more knowledgeable and stronger than the Emperor so he did what wanted. He boasted that in his quarters no one could listen in not even the Emperor, when he found the lattice (webway) he was so proud that he knew and the Emperor didn't...
Yes. I'm not debating that.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...even after Nikaea before he broke into the webway he still allowed his legion to use sorcery so he didn't turn to sorcery just to warn the Emperor because he thought it was important.
No, this is wrong. After Nikea they still used their psychic powers but they stopped with the worst excesses of their sorcery... which is why Magnus using sorcery again to contact the emperor was such a big deal. It was his first real "breaking" of the edict after Nikea.
No, no, no, no! He knew it was DANGEROUS, of course he did because he lost an eye experimenting before. He did NOT know that doing so would damn his soul into service of chaos gods (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED), or that it would destroy the emperor's webway project (THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED).
1. Magnus did boast about that, and he did think he knew of the webway the Emperor didn't.
2.They did not stop using Tutelaries, which were daemons and sorcery, Ahriman used his after the Emperor Edict at Nikaea "Ahriman took a deep breath, the scale of such an undertaking not lost on him. His senses were stretched to the limits of percep-tion, his mind alive with the flickering light of possible futures. He drew deeply on Aaetpio’s well of power to enhance his awareness. His skin felt as though his Tutelary’s fire was burning him. He had felt something like this once before, but forced that memory from his mind as he sensed the presence of inimical souls nearby" p428
3. I already quoted that the Emperor told Magnus that bargaining with Chaos will lead to damnation.
Also Magnus knew everything he needed to of Chaos before he went into the webway "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." and yet he still broke the edict.
w1zard wrote: I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.
Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.
The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos.
You mean the marine chapter created using geneseed derived from The Anathema himself? Yeah, the Grey Knights being able to resist Chaos despite understanding it doesn't mean it would have been safe for the Emperor to blab that knowledge to the primarchs.
Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.
Who's complaining?
No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually,
You're simply wrong. Every emotion stirs the Warp. A daemon created from a mother's love for her child might not be so obviously dangerous as one created from a serial killer's murderous urges, but that probably just makes it more pernicious. Again, you need to read some of the original Chaos lore. The Liber Chaotica describes Tzeentch as being born from the emotion of hope. Getting angry at injustice feeds Khorne (which is why the NL were originally a Khornate legion before they were retconned into atheists - Night Haunter was originally envisaged as how Batman would have ended up in a world where the Warp / Chaos existed). Showing courage and determination in the face of certain doom feeds Nurgle. You can't avoid feeding Chaos merely by avoiding 'negative' emotions.
Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.
Look, I really like the Ciaphas Cain stories, but they're not a good guide to how the 40k setting actually works. James Herriot makes a cameo appearance in one of them for crying out loud.
Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.
Cue *laughter of thirsting gods*
To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.
To put it simply, I think you are woefully misinformed.
w1zard wrote: I think this is pretty blatantly false. There are a lot of 40k novels where characters understanding the nature of chaos helps them to protect themselves from it. The Ciaphas Cain novels, and Ravenor come to mind.
Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.
The fact that the Grey Knights even exist and that none have ever fallen to chaos despite being confronted by the true nature of chaos pretty much as their job also implies that it is not impossible to resist chaos.
You mean the marine chapter created using geneseed derived from The Anathema himself? Yeah, the Grey Knights being able to resist Chaos despite understanding it doesn't mean it would have been safe for the Emperor to blab that knowledge to the primarchs.
Sure, but then you don't get to complain when they get smart and fight back. And if they fight back and win you doubly don't get to complain.
Who's complaining?
No, daemons are explicitly stated to be the NEGATIVE emotions of humanity. Greed, anger, overbearing lust, that sort of thing. I think love is an emotion that most daemons would consider anathema and could not feed off of. Simply feeling emotions does not damn you to fall to chaos eventually,
You're simply wrong. Every emotion stirs the Warp. A daemon created from a mother's love for her child might not be so obviously dangerous as one created from a serial killer's murderous urges, but that probably just makes it more pernicious. Again, you need to read some of the original Chaos lore. The Liber Chaotica describes Tzeentch as being born from the emotion of hope. Getting angry at injustice feeds Khorne (which is why the NL were originally a Khornate legion before they were retconned into atheists - Night Haunter was originally envisaged as how Batman would have ended up in a world where the Warp / Chaos existed). Showing courage and determination in the face of certain doom feeds Nurgle. You can't avoid feeding Chaos merely by avoiding 'negative' emotions.
Amberly Vail from the Ciaphas Cain series is a good example of an extremely old Inquisitor who is still puritan, and there are many other examples.
Look, I really like the Ciaphas Cain stories, but they're not a good guide to how the 40k setting actually works. James Herriot makes a cameo appearance in one of them for crying out loud.
Also, being a radical inquisitor does not imply you soul has fallen to chaos or that you are controlled by chaos. Being radical simply means that you think that chaos can be CAREFULLY used to fight itself. Whether or not that is correct is up for debate.
Cue *laughter of thirsting gods*
To put it simply I think you are misinterpreting quite a bit.
To put it simply, I think you are woefully misinformed.
True, like the daemon that Turned Argel Tal, the daemon didn't want to give him any undue pain and cradle him in its arms like baby. I'd say daemons are more negative; however, because negative emotions are normally the strongest, you can easily be happy and turn angry but being angry its very hard to turn happy lol
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Also Magnus knew everything he needed to of Chaos before he went into the webway "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." and yet he still broke the edict.
I think if anything, that quote proves he had no freaking clue what he was actually agreeing to when he dealt with chaos before. After that, he didn't care because all he wanted was to warn the emperor, he had no way of knowing how badly he would screw things up for others beside himself. I do agree that he was warned by the emperor not to mess with sorcery. But he had absolutely no idea how badly messing with sorcery would feth him and the Imperium.
Duskweaver wrote: Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.
Older lore is irrelevant if it is overwritten by newer lore. In the older lore, the ultramarines had a half-eldar librarian that went to terra and got the emperor's blessing by psychically speaking to him. There is some stuff that is just plain outdated or retconned.
There are plenty of Black Library authors that show that exposure to chaos or understanding the nature of how chaos corrupts individuals does not automatically lead to corruption. The Ciaphas Cain novels, the Ravenor novels, the Eisenhorn novels (Eisenhorn never fell to chaos even though he started employing radical methods), all of Dan Abnett's works especially the Gaunt's Ghosts series of novels are just a few examples, I could go on more. To put it quite plainly, your interpretation that even knowledge of chaos corrupts people into chaos is either based off of old lore that is not relevant or canonical anymore, or is a misinterpretation. I'm sorry but you are wrong, because if you weren't every Imperial Commissar and Inquisitor would have fallen to chaos already. Hell, the entire spat between the Space Wolves and the Inquisition was over the fact that the post-chaos exposure purges of Imperial Guard regiments were UNNECESSARY.
BrianDavion wrote: actually it was because the space wovles THOUGHT they where unnesscary. the Inqusition clearly disagreed
Sure you can argue that, but the regiments that the Space Wolves saved from the purges never ended up falling to chaos, in fact if I remember correctly they continued on fighting with distinction, proving Logan Grimnar right. Even some of the grey knights refused to participate in the "Armageddon Containment" campaign.
BrianDavion wrote: actually it was because the space wovles THOUGHT they where unnesscary. the Inqusition clearly disagreed
Sure you can argue that, but the regiments that the Space Wolves saved from the purges never ended up falling to chaos, in fact if I remember correctly they continued on fighting with distinction, proving Logan Grimnar right. Even some of the grey knights refused to participate in the "Armageddon Containment" campaign.
We've also seen cases where failure to contain things resulted in grave concequences. Iax comes to mind. Gulliman when fighting the death guard set up a hospital for the wounded etc. the end result? he lost an entire planet.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Also Magnus knew everything he needed to of Chaos before he went into the webway "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." and yet he still broke the edict.
I think if anything, that quote proves he had no freaking clue what he was actually agreeing to when he dealt with chaos before. After that, he didn't care because all he wanted was to warn the emperor, he had no way of knowing how badly he would screw things up for others beside himself. I do agree that he was warned by the emperor not to mess with sorcery. But he had absolutely no idea how badly messing with sorcery would feth him and the Imperium.
Duskweaver wrote: Some BL authors do play fast and loose with the rules of how Chaos works for the purposes of telling a story, yes. But you really need to read some of the older Chaos fluff. The original Realm of Chaos books and the Liber Chaotica made it very clear how Chaos works in the setting.
Older lore is irrelevant if it is overwritten by newer lore. In the older lore, the ultramarines had a half-eldar librarian that went to terra and got the emperor's blessing by psychically speaking to him. There is some stuff that is just plain outdated or retconned.
There are plenty of Black Library authors that show that exposure to chaos or understanding the nature of how chaos corrupts individuals does not automatically lead to corruption. The Ciaphas Cain novels, the Ravenor novels, the Eisenhorn novels (Eisenhorn never fell to chaos even though he started employing radical methods), all of Dan Abnett's works especially the Gaunt's Ghosts series of novels are just a few examples, I could go on more. To put it quite plainly, your interpretation that even knowledge of chaos corrupts people into chaos is either based off of old lore that is not relevant or canonical anymore, or is a misinterpretation. I'm sorry but you are wrong, because if you weren't every Imperial Commissar and Inquisitor would have fallen to chaos already. Hell, the entire spat between the Space Wolves and the Inquisition was over the fact that the post-chaos exposure purges of Imperial Guard regiments were UNNECESSARY.
It may show that 'before' the edict of nikaea, when he continued using sorcery and then made a deal with Chaos he knew exactly what he was doing, he knew his soul was already forfeit so he made another deal with Chaos.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: It may show that 'before' the edict of nikaea, when he continued using sorcery and then made a deal with Chaos he knew exactly what he was doing, he knew his soul was already forfeit so he made another deal with Chaos.
Exactly. But he merely thought he was sacrificing himself to warn the emperor. He didn't care about the consequences to HIM about breaking the edict at Nikaea, because in his mind the Imperium was more important than a lone individual even if he was a primarch. He didn't realize that in by breaking the edict he would be damning his legion as well, along with breaking the webway project that the emperor had going, which Magnus didn't even know existed.
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BrianDavion wrote: We've also seen cases where failure to contain things resulted in grave concequences. Iax comes to mind. Gulliman when fighting the death guard set up a hospital for the wounded etc. the end result? he lost an entire planet.
Yes but it isn't a 100% sure thing. The inquisition ordering purges of imperial guard regiments coming into contact with chaos was more of a "safety precaution" then strictly 100% necessary. Grimnar's point of view was that "the lives of loyal Imperial subjects that have fought and bled to protect the Imperium from chaos should not be treated so lightly and thrown away so callously in the name of expediency". He was basically arguing that not only was it unethical, but that it was inefficient as well, because most of those regiments that were to be purged were loyal and would have stayed loyal even after exposure to chaos, and thus was a massive waste of manpower and resources.
Grimnar's point of view had support in the Grey Knights, Ecclesiarchy (especially sisters of battle), and among some inquisitors as well... Although, the official position of the inquisition was to side with Kysnaros in the dispute because the precedent of a single space marine chapter master being able to defy the inquisition was not a good example to set.
It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.
I think that is a fair interpretation of the situation, but it is debatable. I can argue that Grimnar is right and the inquisition is being overly callous and wasting manpower and resources and have plenty of lore evidence to back up that assertion. Both sides had valid points of view and supporters in various Imperial organizations, which is what made the situation so interesting.
Regardless, my original point was that simply having knowledge of the chaos gods or about the insidiousness of how chaos can corrupt you does NOT mean that you are instantly corrupted or doomed to be corrupted in the future. The emperor sharing knowledge about the chaos gods to his primarchs in an effort to warn them about the dangers of chaos would not have turned them all to chaos. Well... maybe Lorgar. But alternatively, Mortarion and Magnus probably would have never fallen.
w1zard wrote: Older lore is irrelevant if it is overwritten by newer lore. In the older lore, the ultramarines had a half-eldar librarian that went to terra and got the emperor's blessing by psychically speaking to him. There is some stuff that is just plain outdated or retconned.
And if anything I'd mentioned had actually been explicitly retconned you'd have a point. But it hasn't. The nature of Chaos hasn't been changed in any official publication. And Liber Chaotica wasn't even that long ago. Please stop trying to pretend that everything written before the last BL novel you read is no longer canon.
There are plenty of Black Library authors that show that exposure to chaos or understanding the nature of how chaos corrupts individuals does not automatically lead to corruption.
Within the scope of the novel. So maybe a few months? And BL novel protagonists tend to be... let's say 'exceptional individuals' because 'Mary Sues' is a bit impolite. The Emperor had to balance the risk of keeping the primarchs ignorant against the much greater risk of letting knowledge of how souls/Chaos works become public. There wasn't anything to be gained by telling the primarchs any more about the subject than he actually did. "There are really dangerous entities in the Warp that it is too risky to have any contact with" really should have been sufficient.
OK, let's flip it around. What do you think the Emperor should have told them, specifically?
all of Dan Abnett's works especially
Dan Abnett has been notorious for putting things in his novels that don't work the way the 40K setting is established to work, literally since his first BL novel.
Anyway, it is true that in certain circumstances a particular piece of information about Chaos can get you out of a tight spot. The point is that, over a long enough time, knowledge of Chaos is inherently corrupting. It's fine for a commissar to be able to recognise, say, the rune of Khorne on a traitor PDF soldier's helmet. But if that commissar knows Khorne is the embodiment of all human rage and anger, eventually he's going to start thinking about that every time he's angry. And every time he exhorts the soldiers under his command to righteous anger against the enemy. And then one day he's shouting "Slay them in the name of the Emperor!" but he's thinking "Slay them in the name of the Blood God!"
And then we've got another sodding Blood Pact to deal with.
Duskweaver wrote: The point is that, over a long enough time, knowledge of Chaos is inherently corrupting.
No.
-Cain served over 200 years as a commissar, having intimate knowledge about chaos and daemons, even having a greater daemon of slaanesh specifically target him in dreams.
-Uncountable instances of inquisitors in stories that have never turned traitor despite living 200+ years.
-Space marines fighting chaos for multiple hundreds of years non-stop and never turning, even fighting on daemon worlds.
-Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, Cadians living on a planet literally right outside of the eye of terror that fight valiantly for the Imperium. All of them exposed to chaos constantly.
You are just wrong, simply knowing about the existence of the chaos gods or information about them isn't going to turn you to chaos on its own. I have given you multiple lore examples and could continue to do so if I thought it was a constructive use of my time. The only thing you have given me is telling me to read a lore book that is almost 15 years old and is most likely irrelevant at this point because it is directly contradicted by the newer lore. Your only counter-argument: "B-But those books don't count."
Delvarus Centurion wrote: It may show that 'before' the edict of nikaea, when he continued using sorcery and then made a deal with Chaos he knew exactly what he was doing, he knew his soul was already forfeit so he made another deal with Chaos.
Exactly. But he merely thought he was sacrificing himself to warn the emperor. He didn't care about the consequences to HIM about breaking the edict at Nikaea, because in his mind the Imperium was more important than a lone individual even if he was a primarch. He didn't realize that in by breaking the edict he would be damning his legion as well, along with breaking the webway project that the emperor had going, which Magnus didn't even know existed.
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BrianDavion wrote: We've also seen cases where failure to contain things resulted in grave concequences. Iax comes to mind. Gulliman when fighting the death guard set up a hospital for the wounded etc. the end result? he lost an entire planet.
Yes but it isn't a 100% sure thing. The inquisition ordering purges of imperial guard regiments coming into contact with chaos was more of a "safety precaution" then strictly 100% necessary. Grimnar's point of view was that "the lives of loyal Imperial subjects that have fought and bled to protect the Imperium from chaos should not be treated so lightly and thrown away so callously in the name of expediency". He was basically arguing that not only was it unethical, but that it was inefficient as well, because most of those regiments that were to be purged were loyal and would have stayed loyal even after exposure to chaos, and thus was a massive waste of manpower and resources.
Grimnar's point of view had support in the Grey Knights, Ecclesiarchy (especially sisters of battle), and among some inquisitors as well... Although, the official position of the inquisition was to side with Kysnaros in the dispute because the precedent of a single space marine chapter master being able to defy the inquisition was not a good example to set.
He didn't care about the consequences of breaking into the webway either. It wasn't a selfless act, he was already doomed. He broke the edict of Nikaea before he knew of Horus' betrayal. He did know his legion was damned the daemon told him that before he made another pack with Chaos. But this is going in circles, I've already proved he was sufficiently warned and he still continued using sorcery.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He didn't care about the consequences of breaking into the webway either. It wasn't a selfless act, he was already doomed. He broke the edict of Nikaea before he knew of Horus' betrayal. He did know his legion was damned the daemon told him that before he made another pack with Chaos. But this is going in circles, I've already proved he was sufficiently warned and he still continued using sorcery.
What? The entire reason why he used sorcery was because he was trying to contact the emperor and warn him about Horus' betrayal. That is a pretty selfless act considering he knew he was going to get in trouble for it.
Magnus couldn't get into the Imperial Palace to warn the emperor because of the psychic defenses. By penetrating these defenses he accidentally ruined the emperor's webway project. Magnus intentionally broke through the barriers but he had no idea it would screw things up so badly because he had no idea that the emperor was even working on a webway project.
Magnus breaching the psychic defenses around Terra was intentional in that he thought they could just be patched up again afterwards no big deal. He had no idea what was really going on or what his breaching of the defenses would really do.
"Using an astral projection spell, the spirit of Magnus the Red hurtled towards Terra through the Warp. While in the Immaterium, Magnus came across a Webway corridor that led to Terra but found the barrier impenetrable. But then an anonymous entity within the Warp whispered sibilantly to him, offering to provide the Primarch with additional power in order to breach the Webway. Magnus seized upon the entity's offer, breaching the barrier and bursting into the Emperor's throne room. This act penetrated the powerful psychic wards the Emperor had raised around the Imperial Palace and allowed Warp entities to penetrate the human extension of the Webway and launch an assault against Terra itself, killing thousands of the Mechanicus Adepts who had been labouring with the Emperor on his great work. With this breach, the Emperor's work was undone. Horrified, the Primarch's spirit returned to his corporeal body on Prospero. There, he received a vision from Tzeentch, the mysterious entity that had enabled him to breach the Webway. The Architect of Fate informed Magnus that it was his destiny to serve the will of the Ruinous Powers."
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He didn't care about the consequences of breaking into the webway either. It wasn't a selfless act, he was already doomed. He broke the edict of Nikaea before he knew of Horus' betrayal. He did know his legion was damned the daemon told him that before he made another pack with Chaos. But this is going in circles, I've already proved he was sufficiently warned and he still continued using sorcery.
What? The entire reason why he used sorcery was because he was trying to contact the emperor and warn him about Horus' betrayal. That is a pretty selfless act considering he knew he was going to get in trouble for it.
Magnus couldn't get into the Imperial Palace to warn the emperor because of the psychic defenses. By penetrating these defenses he accidentally ruined the emperor's webway project. Magnus intentionally broke through the barriers but he had no idea it would screw things up so badly because he had no idea that the emperor was even working on a webway project.
Magnus breaching the psychic defenses around Terra was intentional in that he thought they could just be patched up again afterwards no big deal. He had no idea what was really going on or what his breaching of the defenses would really do.
"Using an astral projection spell, the spirit of Magnus the Red hurtled towards Terra through the Warp. While in the Immaterium, Magnus came across a Webway corridor that led to Terra but found the barrier impenetrable. But then an anonymous entity within the Warp whispered sibilantly to him, offering to provide the Primarch with additional power in order to breach the Webway. Magnus seized upon the entity's offer, breaching the barrier and bursting into the Emperor's throne room. This act penetrated the powerful psychic wards the Emperor had raised around the Imperial Palace and allowed Warp entities to penetrate the human extension of the Webway and launch an assault against Terra itself, killing thousands of the Mechanicus Adepts who had been labouring with the Emperor on his great work. With this breach, the Emperor's work was undone. Horrified, the Primarch's spirit returned to his corporeal body on Prospero. There, he received a vision from Tzeentch, the mysterious entity that had enabled him to breach the Webway. The Architect of Fate informed Magnus that it was his destiny to serve the will of the Ruinous Powers."
We all know the lore of Magnus breaking into the webway, That doesn't mean he wasn't warned.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.
I think that is a fair interpretation of the situation, but it is debatable. I can argue that Grimnar is right and the inquisition is being overly callous and wasting manpower and resources and have plenty of lore evidence to back up that assertion. Both sides had valid points of view and supporters in various Imperial organizations, which is what made the situation so interesting.
You can only argue for Grimnar if you hadn't read another piece of 40k lore, where whole planets get corrupted and that kinda crap.
You're right just knowing of Chaos doesn't JUST cause heresy, but those in the know are typically being trained to resist it at the same time for those already named, which the aforementioned Guardsmen from that whole situation wouldn't have.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It doesn't NEED to be 100%. Any chance Chaos gets an edge is something the Inquisition can't allow to happen. They make those decisions for a reason and Grimnar is stupidly short sighted.
I think that is a fair interpretation of the situation, but it is debatable. I can argue that Grimnar is right and the inquisition is being overly callous and wasting manpower and resources and have plenty of lore evidence to back up that assertion. Both sides had valid points of view and supporters in various Imperial organizations, which is what made the situation so interesting.
You can only argue for Grimnar if you hadn't read another piece of 40k lore, where whole planets get corrupted and that kinda crap.
You're right just knowing of Chaos doesn't JUST cause heresy, but those in the know are typically being trained to resist it at the same time for those already named, which the aforementioned Guardsmen from that whole situation wouldn't have.
Well I've quoted pretty much everything I've said, so where have I got the lore wrong?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can only argue for Grimnar if you hadn't read another piece of 40k lore, where whole planets get corrupted and that kinda crap.
You're right just knowing of Chaos doesn't JUST cause heresy, but those in the know are typically being trained to resist it at the same time for those already named, which the aforementioned Guardsmen from that whole situation wouldn't have.
Oh its definitely possible, I would say probable that some of the regiments got corrupted while fighting on armageddon. It was Grimnar's opinion that it doesn't mean you should kill all of them immediately because most of the ones you are going to be purging are loyal, and wasting that much manpower and material hurts the Imperium far more in the long run then missing a few corrupted guardsmen. Grimnar thought that the the regiments should be carefully combed through and any corruption brought to light should be excised, whilst the inquisition thought that the risk of missing some traitors was too great and that they should all be put to death to ensure any corruption is dealt with. Like I said, its debatable, with valid points on either side.
You could certainly make an argument that "missing a few traitor guardsmen" has the potential to cause a good deal of trouble, up to and including "whole planets getting corrupted and that kinda crap".
But Grimnar does have a point. For example, if every regiment who has ever fought tyranids was to be purged for fear of genestealer implants going unnoticed, many worlds of the Imperium would be have to be put to the sword, including the entire population of Macragge for starters. His view was that it was a better policy to carefully comb through the survivors and execute any heretics found that way and just deal with the ones you missed at a later date once they reveal themselves.
You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.
Duskweaver wrote: The point is that, over a long enough time, knowledge of Chaos is inherently corrupting.
No.
-Cain served over 200 years as a commissar, having intimate knowledge about chaos and daemons, even having a greater daemon of slaanesh specifically target him in dreams.
-Uncountable instances of inquisitors in stories that have never turned traitor despite living 200+ years.
-Space marines fighting chaos for multiple hundreds of years non-stop and never turning, even fighting on daemon worlds.
-Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, Cadians living on a planet literally right outside of the eye of terror that fight valiantly for the Imperium. All of them exposed to chaos constantly.
You are just wrong, simply knowing about the existence of the chaos gods or information about them isn't going to turn you to chaos on its own. I have given you multiple lore examples and could continue to do so if I thought it was a constructive use of my time. The only thing you have given me is telling me to read a lore book that is almost 15 years old and is most likely irrelevant at this point because it is directly contradicted by the newer lore. Your only counter-argument: "B-But those books don't count."
Dusk weaver is correct but it depends on a number of factors. Like the individual's intelligence, willpower, greed, insecurities etc. Commissars are only told the most basic aspects of the corrupting nature of Chaos in their training. Obviously marines are told more because they have already endured hardships in training that would drive most people insane. Same goes for certain guardsmen, like for example i wouldn't be surprised if Sgt Harker discovered a great deal about chaos and was unaffected. it is relative to the individual.
BigbyWolf wrote: Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...
given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character
Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...
We know the broad strokes of what happened yes. details like "Horus begged the emperor to kill him in a moment of clarity" is something I'd avoid stating as a definative fact. although Wolfsbane DOES have some evidance to suggest that may be what happens. To be honest I hope not. Horus is more intreasting if he choose and was complicant all along with his damnnationas opposed to someone who was just posessed
there's actually a fluff booklet that details the whole siege of Terra that came with the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy board game. I tried to scan the page where Horus dies before I went to work today but my scanner wouldn't connect to my new pc I'll try and get it to work when I get home...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.
Absolutely comparable. Most people infected with the initial genestealer implants aren't even aware they are infected. A guardsman who is infected can spread his infection wherever he goes throughout the galaxy, possibly spawning cults on dozens of worlds while being completely unaware of being a carrier due to the memory loss caused by the symbiotes.
It is true that a thorough medical examination can detect the implants if they know exactly what they are looking for, so I guess it is easier to detect an infected guardsman then a traitor trying to stay hidden, but I think the situations are very comparable. You don't see the inquisition going around slaughtering imperial guard regiments that have fought tyranids unless they have a good reason to believe the entire regiment might be compromised.
In the situation we are talking about, Kysnaros made the decision to purge all of the regiments that fought on Armageddon to both ensure that chaos didn't spread and to protect the secret of the grey knights. The decision was an unpopular one, opposed vehemently by the Sororitas on Armageddon as well as some of the grey knights. Grimnar was just the only one to stand up to the inquisitor. Now if you want to argue that it wasn't the place of a chapter master to defy the inquisition I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but all I'm saying was that Grimnar had a good point, despite the inappropriateness of defying the inquisition.
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BigbyWolf wrote: ...Commissars are only told the most basic aspects of the corrupting nature of Chaos in their training...
All imperial commissars are taught the names of the four chaos gods, their portfolios, identifying symbols, preferred methods of corruption, and other detailed information to ensure they can spot any kind of chaos shenanigans from a mile away. This information is technically classified, but imperial guard regiments who are assigned combat zones against chaos forces are often briefed by members of the inquisition or the commissariat with some of this information on a need-to-know basis.
Again, if simple knowledge of the chaos gods existence corrupted people then every imperial comissar and inquisitor should fall to chaos, they don't.
It is mostly kept secret to stop Imperial populaces from panicking, not to stop people from turning traitor en masse. Although I suppose many Imperial citizens would turn to chaos worship out of fear if they knew the truth.
If the primarchs had this information it could have stopped many from falling to chaos. With the possible exception of Lorgar who very well may have been pushed to chaos even sooner.
If I'm remembering correctly only like 1 in a billion humans is even eligible to even be accepted for inquisition training and even then most of them don't make it. How much chaos can corrupt someone is about mental fortitude more than anything. For example in the real world a soldier could under go torture every day for months and retain their sanity while most civilians would wind up in a mental health facility after experiencing the same torture once because soldiers are mentally conditioned to deal with that type of trauma in their training.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.
Absolutely comparable. Most people infected with the initial genestealer implants aren't even aware they are infected. A guardsman who is infected can spread his infection wherever he goes throughout the galaxy, possibly spawning cults on dozens of worlds while being completely unaware of being a carrier due to the memory loss caused by the symbiotes.
It is true that a thorough medical examination can detect the implants if they know exactly what they are looking for, so I guess it is easier to detect an infected guardsman then a traitor trying to stay hidden, but I think the situations are very comparable. You don't see the inquisition going around slaughtering imperial guard regiments that have fought tyranids unless they have a good reason to believe the entire regiment might be compromised.
In the situation we are talking about, Kysnaros made the decision to purge all of the regiments that fought on Armageddon to both ensure that chaos didn't spread and to protect the secret of the grey knights. The decision was an unpopular one, opposed vehemently by the Sororitas on Armageddon as well as some of the grey knights. Grimnar was just the only one to stand up to the inquisitor. Now if you want to argue that it wasn't the place of a chapter master to defy the inquisition I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but all I'm saying was that Grimnar had a good point, despite the inappropriateness of defying the inquisition.
You're missing the grand point I made.
Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.
Absolutely comparable. Most people infected with the initial genestealer implants aren't even aware they are infected. A guardsman who is infected can spread his infection wherever he goes throughout the galaxy, possibly spawning cults on dozens of worlds while being completely unaware of being a carrier due to the memory loss caused by the symbiotes.
It is true that a thorough medical examination can detect the implants if they know exactly what they are looking for, so I guess it is easier to detect an infected guardsman then a traitor trying to stay hidden, but I think the situations are very comparable. You don't see the inquisition going around slaughtering imperial guard regiments that have fought tyranids unless they have a good reason to believe the entire regiment might be compromised.
In the situation we are talking about, Kysnaros made the decision to purge all of the regiments that fought on Armageddon to both ensure that chaos didn't spread and to protect the secret of the grey knights. The decision was an unpopular one, opposed vehemently by the Sororitas on Armageddon as well as some of the grey knights. Grimnar was just the only one to stand up to the inquisitor. Now if you want to argue that it wasn't the place of a chapter master to defy the inquisition I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but all I'm saying was that Grimnar had a good point, despite the inappropriateness of defying the inquisition.
You're missing the grand point I made.
Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.
actually genestealers have a hypnotizing gaze, but otherwise your point stands .
BigbyWolf wrote: Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...
given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character
Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...
We know the broad strokes of what happened yes. details like "Horus begged the emperor to kill him in a moment of clarity" is something I'd avoid stating as a definative fact. although Wolfsbane DOES have some evidance to suggest that may be what happens. To be honest I hope not. Horus is more intreasting if he choose and was complicant all along with his damnnationas opposed to someone who was just posessed
Scanner still won't work so I just used my phone camera. But yeah, again this is from the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy boardgame by Fantasy Flight. I realize that the Black Library series probably won't play out exactly like this but until I see something that suggests otherwise I'm gonna consider this low-canon...
Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.
I'm not missing the point, all it takes for a genestealer implants to infect you is a poke in the wrong spot by a genestealer or to have sexual contact with someone who is already infected. All it takes is for a single trooper to be infected and then the infection starts spreading like wildfire, with genestealer cults popping up everywhere.
A single soldier might get turned to chaos by looking at a symbol of chaos but an individual soldier can't do much on his own, he would need to start a secret chaos cult and ingratiate himself into the leadership of his surroundings to do anything important.
Unless you are saying entire regiments turning traitor at the same time for just as something simple as seeing a chaos symbol, which I don't think is the case, or at least I have never read anything in the lore like that happening.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.
can 'you' stop arguing you're getting the lore all wrong lol
Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.
I'm not missing the point, all it takes for a genestealer implants to infect you is a poke in the wrong spot by a genestealer or to have sexual contact with someone who is already infected. All it takes is for a single trooper to be infected and then the infection starts spreading like wildfire, with genestealer cults popping up everywhere.
A single soldier might get turned to chaos by looking at a symbol of chaos but an individual soldier can't do much on his own, he would need to start a secret chaos cult and ingratiate himself into the leadership of his surroundings to do anything important.
Unless you are saying entire regiments turning traitor at the same time for just as something simple as seeing a chaos symbol, which I don't think is the case, or at least I have never read anything in the lore like that happening.
A Genestealer has to actually do the implant though, which is why it isn't comparable. Sure it could only be a lone Infantry dude, but the only way to be safe is to actually kill them all or mind wipe them.
Which is why I'm saying a Genestealer giving you a mean look is much different from a Daemon giving you a mean look.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.
can 'you' stop arguing you're getting the lore all wrong lol
Which is why I'm saying a Genestealer giving you a mean look is much different from a Daemon giving you a mean look.
Sure, but the damage that a guardsman who is tainted with a genestealer implant can do to the Imperium is comparable to the damage that a chaos influenced guardsman can do.
You don't see inquisition death squads wiping out every IG regiment who has fought the Tyranids and the Imperium is still safe.
Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.
I'm not missing the point, all it takes for a genestealer implants to infect you is a poke in the wrong spot by a genestealer or to have sexual contact with someone who is already infected. All it takes is for a single trooper to be infected and then the infection starts spreading like wildfire, with genestealer cults popping up everywhere.
A single soldier might get turned to chaos by looking at a symbol of chaos but an individual soldier can't do much on his own, he would need to start a secret chaos cult and ingratiate himself into the leadership of his surroundings to do anything important.
Unless you are saying entire regiments turning traitor at the same time for just as something simple as seeing a chaos symbol, which I don't think is the case, or at least I have never read anything in the lore like that happening.
A Genestealer has to actually do the implant though, which is why it isn't comparable. Sure it could only be a lone Infantry dude, but the only way to be safe is to actually kill them all or mind wipe them.
Which is why I'm saying a Genestealer giving you a mean look is much different from a Daemon giving you a mean look.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.
can 'you' stop arguing you're getting the lore all wrong lol
BigbyWolf wrote: Scanner still won't work so I just used my phone camera. But yeah, again this is from the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy boardgame by Fantasy Flight. I realize that the Black Library series probably won't play out exactly like this but until I see something that suggests otherwise I'm gonna consider this low-canon...
That is a slight reworking of Bill King's "The Emperor and Horus" which was written around 1990. You can find the original version here as well as his Siege of Terra piece.
BigbyWolf wrote: Scanner still won't work so I just used my phone camera. But yeah, again this is from the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy boardgame by Fantasy Flight. I realize that the Black Library series probably won't play out exactly like this but until I see something that suggests otherwise I'm gonna consider this low-canon...
That is a slight reworking of Bill King's "The Emperor and Horus" which was written around 1990. You can find the original version here as well as his Siege of Terra piece.
Knowing Black Library, I am sure the siege will merit and entire trilogy and the boarding of the Vengeful Spirit will be a whole book.
I figured it had to have been taken from another work of some kind. This also has one of my favorite Rogal Dorn (My favorite Primarch) moments of any written work i've ever read. "Dorn hesitated for a moment. He was not sure what he would do if his beloved master and father was dead. That was a universe he couldn't conceive of. It would be a place of only darkness and despair..."
Void__Dragon wrote: The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius, and perhaps Ferrus Manus.
The least wise is obviously Konrad Curze. Barring frothing at the mouth lunatics, I'd probably go with Lorgar.
Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.
Void__Dragon wrote: The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius, and perhaps Ferrus Manus.
The least wise is obviously Konrad Curze. Barring frothing at the mouth lunatics, I'd probably go with Lorgar.
Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.
I'd put Horus at the bottom. He was weak. He was a fool. He had the galaxy in his hands and let it slip away.
Void__Dragon wrote: The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius, and perhaps Ferrus Manus.
The least wise is obviously Konrad Curze. Barring frothing at the mouth lunatics, I'd probably go with Lorgar.
Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.
I'd put Horus at the bottom. He was weak. He was a fool. He had the galaxy in his hands and let it slip away.
That's just Abaddon's opinion, Horus came closer than he ever has, plus I don't think he was destined to win, think the Heresy was Chaos' grab for an army that were as good as Astartes and which can operate in the materium. The Emperor even knew Horus would fall but It would take him falling to do it. Horus served a purpose, he went fully over to Chaos, but Abaddon had the luxury of knowing about Chaos in far more detail not to sell his entire soul to the powers. Horus is a Primarch, was something Abaddon can never be.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.
Absolutely. But can you really blame a kid for finding an assault rifle and accidentally hurting someone with it? It is the responsibility of the father to either keep the assault rifle well out of possible reach of the kid (warnings about not touching it aren't enough, kids don't listen), or teach the kid how to handle the assault rifle the right way. The "father" in this case did neither of those things.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
Going 1v1 with the emperor was a mistake on Horus' part. He should have known that even as powerful as he was he was no match for the emperor. He got sloppy at the end and allowed pride and arrogance to ruin possibly one of the most large and successful rebellions in galactic history apart from the necrontyr uprising.
Pre-fall Horus was extremely wise and intelligent (I think Guilliman and Sang still had him beat), but being infused with chaos powers made him unstable. Brilliant still, but unstable.
Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.
Absolutely. But can you really blame a kid for finding an assault rifle and accidentally hurting someone with it? It is the responsibility of the father to either keep the assault rifle well out of possible reach of the kid (warnings about not touching it aren't enough, kids don't listen), or teach the kid how to handle the assault rifle the right way. The "father" in this case did neither of those things.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
Going 1v1 with the emperor was a mistake on Horus' part. He should have known that even as powerful as he was he was no match for the emperor. He got sloppy at the end and allowed pride and arrogance to ruin possibly one of the most large and successful rebellions in galactic history apart from the necrontyr uprising.
Pre-fall Horus was extremely wise and intelligent (I think Guilliman and Sang still had him beat), but being infused with chaos powers made him unstable. Brilliant still, but unstable.
The Emperor told the Primarchs about the dangers of the warp.
Horus knew the warp very well "you saw, Garviel. It is a secret thing, known to a very few, though the Emperor, beloved of all, knows more than any of us. A secret, Garviel, more than any other secret we are keeping today. Can you keep it? I’ll share it, for it will soothe your mind, but I need you to keep it solemnly.’‘I will,’ Loken said.The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’‘The... warp?’‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the chaos it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’‘Sir, I...’ Loken began. ‘I have been trained in the study of the warp. I am well prepared to face its horrors. I have fought the foul things that pour forth from the gates of the Empyrean, and yes, the warp can seep into a man and transmute him. I have seen this happen, but only in psykers. It is the risk they take. Not in Astartes.’‘Do you understand the full mechanism of the warp, Garviel?’ Horus asked. He raised the glass to the nearest light to examine the colour of the wine.‘No, sir. I don’t pretend to.’‘Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communication and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our pres-ence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, fundamental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. ‘Spirits. Daemons. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have taken great pains, through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’He looked across at Loken. ‘Spirits. Daemons. The supernatural. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the universe as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’‘Meaning the warp?’‘Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its horrors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words “alien” and “xenos” to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just “aliens” too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Supernatural, if you will. So let’s use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to re-member is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature."
How better could they have been warned? I think the Emperor warned them well enough. People just say he didn't to make up for the mistakes their favourite Primarchs did, that's why this 'the emperor should have told them' has always persisted as a "fact".
Ahriman to Magnus “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman" He still broke into the webway.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
Panicking that he wasn't going to break Terra in time, so lowering his shields to face the emperor
and the big one
Selling out to chaos because he got a little bit stabbed to death.
Both huge examples of hubris.
He was losing the battle so he dropped his shield to cut the head off the snake, it was the only tactical choice he could make. Him turning to Chaos has nothing to do with "He was so used to success, on the rare occasion he thought he might fail he would just collapse like a house of cards." How does not wanting to die and being made to think the Emperor was going to leave them behind have anything to do with fearing he'd failed and collapsing like a house of cards, failed at what 'breathing' lol. You are just making stuff up as you go, you aren't backing anything up with actual lore. I'm out.
The Emperor told the Primarchs about the dangers of the warp.
**SNIP**
I guess it basically boils down to if you really think the emperor did enough to warn his sons about the dangers of chaos. I personally don't think "don't touch it" was a good enough warning because it is vague, which is the worst kind of warning. Obviously you think it was good enough and I can respect that difference of opinion.
But what is absolutely fact was that the emperor hid pretty much all knowledge about chaos and the chaos gods, even going so far as to straight up lie to the primarchs that daemons were just another xenos species that inhabited a different dimension. It is my opinion that because he concealed this knowledge it more easily allowed the primarchs to be tricked by chaos and manipulated into rebellion against the emperor. Who knows, maybe everything would have happened exactly as it did even if the primarchs knew about chaos and how insidious it was, but somehow I don't think so.
The emperor took a risk in keeping that knowledge secret. It costed him.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
except that Magnus was actively trying to warn him about it, and that it was revealed that the "guide" was indeed lying and manipulating, at the end of the whole thing Horus basicly said "yeah I know he's lying and I don't care" also NO WHERE in the whole experiance was there ANY sign Horus was being presented with "join us or die"
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
except that Magnus was actively trying to warn him about it, and that it was revealed that the "guide" was indeed lying and manipulating, at the end of the whole thing Horus basicly said "yeah I know he's lying and I don't care" also NO WHERE in the whole experiance was there ANY sign Horus was being presented with "join us or die"
That's when they come before him though. He gets stabbed by a demon blade of nurgle and is about to die. But Erebus just happens to know a cult of nice people that can save him nearby. The Luna Wolves panic and agree to let them try and save him. He was as screwed as gulliman was when fulgrim stabbed him.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
I said it was to save his life and because of the visions.
The Emperor told the Primarchs about the dangers of the warp.
**SNIP**
I guess it basically boils down to if you really think the emperor did enough to warn his sons about the dangers of chaos. I personally don't think "don't touch it" was a good enough warning because it is vague, which is the worst kind of warning. Obviously you think it was good enough and I can respect that difference of opinion.
But what is absolutely fact was that the emperor hid pretty much all knowledge about chaos and the chaos gods, even going so far as to straight up lie to the primarchs that daemons were just another xenos species that inhabited a different dimension. It is my opinion that because he concealed this knowledge it more easily allowed the primarchs to be tricked by chaos and manipulated into rebellion against the emperor. Who knows, maybe everything would have happened exactly as it did even if the primarchs knew about chaos and how insidious it was, but somehow I don't think so.
The emperor took a risk in keeping that knowledge secret. It costed him.
Saying all he did was say "don't touch it" is nonsense, he did far more than that. Read the Horus quote, he new of the nature of chaos, the Emperor told the, how dangerous it was at Nikaea etc. To say he didn't is just ignoring the lore completely.
nareik wrote: Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.
If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.
It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.
His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.
Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.
now it's been awhile since I read the books where he falls, but I seem to quite distinctly recall Horus didn't embrace chaos to save his life, he embraced it because chaos showed him a nasty future where the emperor is worshipped as a god, and worse yet.. Horus DIDN'T HAVE A STATUE. Horus was horrified that he'd be forgotten. and this is born out as the inital HH trilogy says each of the Primarchs represents a part of the emperor, and Horus is his AMBITION. so of course the guy had a fragile ego. His whole strive to be remembered, the Luna Wolves constant desires to be "the best" thats EGO.
Horus did have a big ego but in their own ways they all did because you can't be a symbolic hero without a degree of pride. As I stated before when Horus experienced his vision of the 41st millennium the chaos gods appeared before him as benevolent beings and we're seemingly showing him proof that the emperor had been lying to Horus and every other human in the Imperium from the start. On top of that if he refused to let the dark gods in he would have died and then been powerless to stop his life's work from being not only undone but used to enforce the opposite of what he believed in. I think any rational person would have done the same if put in such a circumstance.
except that Magnus was actively trying to warn him about it, and that it was revealed that the "guide" was indeed lying and manipulating, at the end of the whole thing Horus basicly said "yeah I know he's lying and I don't care" also NO WHERE in the whole experiance was there ANY sign Horus was being presented with "join us or die"
Horus absolutely knew he was going to die. Magnus/Erebus told him that and he knew it himself. "Very well,' said Sejanus, 'but quickly, for your body lies on the brink of death within the walls of the Delphos on Davin."
"Your mind and body are dying and this world is beginning to collapse into Chaos. That's why they sent me back, to guide you to the truth that will allow you to return to your body."
"'And what if I don't want to be their emissary?' 'Then you will die,' said Sejanus. 'Only they are powerful enough to save your life now.'"
"In return for your aid,they can give you a measure of their power and the means to realise your every ambition."
Saying all he did was say "don't touch it" is nonsense, he did far more than that. Read the Horus quote, he new of the nature of chaos, the Emperor told the, how dangerous it was at Nikaea etc. To say he didn't is just ignoring the lore completely.
I mean, vague warnings about how sorcery shouldn't be messed with and how it can "damn you" without really going into specifics and still keeping the existance of daemons and the chaos gods secret pretty much amounts to "don't touch it" in my book, but whatever man.
Saying all he did was say "don't touch it" is nonsense, he did far more than that. Read the Horus quote, he new of the nature of chaos, the Emperor told the, how dangerous it was at Nikaea etc. To say he didn't is just ignoring the lore completely.
I mean, vague warnings about how sorcery shouldn't be messed with and how it can "damn you" without really going into specifics and still keeping the existance of daemons and the chaos gods secret pretty much amounts to "don't touch it" in my book, but whatever man.
The Emperor told Magnus that if he bargained with the forces of the warp he wouldn't be left whole early on in the great crusade. He explicit told how dangerous it was, Magnus even admited how dangerous it was talking to Ahriman about breaking into the webway but still did it, but you keep saying he didn't tell them, like Magnus was a child, Magnus knew fine well what he was doing and he still did it.
"“The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman"
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
"Magnus tried to look away, but the horror of the vision was impossible to ignore.“Why should I believe anything you say?” he cried.“You already know the truth of your doom; I have no need to embellish."
"He remembered, decades later, returning to the world of his birth to travel its forgotten highways and explore its lost mysteries with his father. The Emperor had taught him more of the secret powers of the universe, imparting his wisdom while little realising that the student was on the verge of outstripping the teacher. They had walked the searing red deserts of Meganesia, travelling the invisible pathways once known as songlines by the first people to walk that land.Other cultures knew them as ley lines or lung-mei, believing them to be the blood of the gods, the magnetic flow of mystical energy that circulated in the planet’s veins. His father told him how the ancient shamans of Old Earth could tap into these currents and wield power beyond that of other mortals. Many had sought to become gods, raising empires and enslaving all men before them. The Emperor spoke of how these men had brought ruin upon themselves and their people by trafficking with powers beyond their comprehension. Seeing Magnus’ interest, his father warned him against flying too long and too high in the aether for selfish gain."
"Magnus listened attentively, but in his secret heart he had dreamed of controlling the powers these mortals could not. He was a being of light so far removed from humanity that he barely considered himself related to his primordial ancestors. He was far above them, yes, but he did not allow himself to forget the legacy of evolution and sacrifice that had elevated him. It was his duty and his honour to speed the ascension of those who would come after him, to show them the light as his father had shown him"
- spoken when Magnus flew through the warp with the Emperor, before the Emperor ever came to prospero.
"Only when the Emperor had brought the survivors of his Legion to Prospero had Magnus known he would have to disregard the warnings and delve further into the mysteries. His gene-sons were dying, their bodies mutating and turning against them as uncontrolled tides wrought ever more hideous changes in their flesh. Nor were such horrific transformations limited to their bodies. Their minds were like pulsing flares in the Great Ocean, drawing predators, hunters and malign creatures that sought to cross into the material universe.Unchecked, his Legion would be dead within a generation.The power to save them was there, just waiting to be used, and he had given long thought and contemplation to breaking his father’s first command. He had not done so heedlessly, but only after much introspection and an honest appraisal of his abilities. Magnus knew he was a superlative manipulator of the aether, but was he strong enough? He knew the answer to that now, for he had saved his warriors. He had seized control of their destinies from the talons of a malevolent shadow in the Great Ocean that held their fates in its grasp. The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he had never dared face one. Mag-nus’ victory was not won without cost, and he reached up to touch the smooth skin where his right eye had once been, feeling the pain and vindication of that sacrifice once more"
He was told on Aghoru the nature of Chaos and the bargain he made and still he continued to use socery and allow his legion to use the daemon Tutelaries, well before Nikaea and then he he still broke into the webway. If this is what Magnus does when he finds everything out about Chaos, its no wonder the Emperor didn't explicitly say you will lose your soul, even though he did say you can treat with choas and stay whole. Arguing that Magnus wouldn't have done this if the Emperor explained more is silly.
The Emperor told Magnus that if he bargained with the forces of the warp he wouldn't be left whole early on in the great crusade. He explicit told how dangerous it was...
No, he didn't. He told Magnus specifically that dealing with warp entities could "damn him" if he wasn't careful and that was at the council of nikaea right before the beginning of the Horus Heresy.
"“The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman"
This quote is taken out of context. Magnus is referring to the punishment he knew would receive from the emperor for breaking the decree at Nikea... Magnus broke the decree purposely because he thought it was more important to warn the emperor of Horus' betrayal. Magnus did not know that he was selling his soul, only that it was dangerous to deal with warp creatures. Magnus did not know that breaking the psychic seal in the webway to Terra would ruin the emperor's webway project, and this quote proves it:
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
"Magnus tried to look away, but the horror of the vision was impossible to ignore.“Why should I believe anything you say?” he cried.“You already know the truth of your doom; I have no need to embellish."
"He remembered, decades later, returning to the world of his birth to travel its forgotten highways and explore its lost mysteries with his father. The Emperor had taught him more of the secret powers of the universe, imparting his wisdom while little realising that the student was on the verge of outstripping the teacher. They had walked the searing red deserts of Meganesia, travelling the invisible pathways once known as songlines by the first people to walk that land.Other cultures knew them as ley lines or lung-mei, believing them to be the blood of the gods, the magnetic flow of mystical energy that circulated in the planet’s veins. His father told him how the ancient shamans of Old Earth could tap into these currents and wield power beyond that of other mortals. Many had sought to become gods, raising empires and enslaving all men before them. The Emperor spoke of how these men had brought ruin upon themselves and their people by trafficking with powers beyond their comprehension. Seeing Magnus’ interest, his father warned him against flying too long and too high in the aether for selfish gain."
"Magnus listened attentively, but in his secret heart he had dreamed of controlling the powers these mortals could not. He was a being of light so far removed from humanity that he barely considered himself related to his primordial ancestors. He was far above them, yes, but he did not allow himself to forget the legacy of evolution and sacrifice that had elevated him. It was his duty and his honour to speed the ascension of those who would come after him, to show them the light as his father had shown him"
That just goes to show that the emperor warned Magnus that it was dangerous if he wasn't careful. Magnus thought he was being careful. He wasn't. The emperor didn't tell him that there was no possible way he could deal with the entities of the warp and come out unscathed. To Magnus, the emperors warnings were for lesser men, because he knew the emperor was experimenting with sorcery himself.
The Emperor told Magnus that if he bargained with the forces of the warp he wouldn't be left whole early on in the great crusade. He explicit told how dangerous it was...
No, he didn't. He told Magnus specifically that dealing with warp entities could "damn him" if he wasn't careful and that was at the council of nikaea right before the beginning of the Horus Heresy.
"“The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman"
This quote is taken out of context. Magnus is referring to the punishment he knew would receive from the emperor for breaking the decree at Nikea... Magnus broke the decree purposely because he thought it was more important to warn the emperor of Horus' betrayal. Magnus did not know that he was selling his soul, only that it was dangerous to deal with warp creatures. Magnus did not know that breaking the psychic seal in the webway to Terra would ruin the emperor's webway project, and this quote proves it:
“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
"Magnus tried to look away, but the horror of the vision was impossible to ignore.“Why should I believe anything you say?” he cried.“You already know the truth of your doom; I have no need to embellish."
"He remembered, decades later, returning to the world of his birth to travel its forgotten highways and explore its lost mysteries with his father. The Emperor had taught him more of the secret powers of the universe, imparting his wisdom while little realising that the student was on the verge of outstripping the teacher. They had walked the searing red deserts of Meganesia, travelling the invisible pathways once known as songlines by the first people to walk that land.Other cultures knew them as ley lines or lung-mei, believing them to be the blood of the gods, the magnetic flow of mystical energy that circulated in the planet’s veins. His father told him how the ancient shamans of Old Earth could tap into these currents and wield power beyond that of other mortals. Many had sought to become gods, raising empires and enslaving all men before them. The Emperor spoke of how these men had brought ruin upon themselves and their people by trafficking with powers beyond their comprehension. Seeing Magnus’ interest, his father warned him against flying too long and too high in the aether for selfish gain."
"Magnus listened attentively, but in his secret heart he had dreamed of controlling the powers these mortals could not. He was a being of light so far removed from humanity that he barely considered himself related to his primordial ancestors. He was far above them, yes, but he did not allow himself to forget the legacy of evolution and sacrifice that had elevated him. It was his duty and his honour to speed the ascension of those who would come after him, to show them the light as his father had shown him"
That just goes to show that the emperor warned Magnus that it was dangerous if he wasn't careful. Magnus thought he was being careful. He wasn't. The emperor didn't tell him that there was no possible way he could deal with the entities of the warp and come out unscathed. To Magnus, the emperors warnings were for lesser men, because he knew the emperor was experimenting with sorcery himself.
Wrong that was the Nikaea quote you are talking about, he said that he can't bargain before Nikaea
Not taken out of context, I used that in saying he still used sorcery and daemon Tutelaries after Nikaea and still broke into the lattice. He did know he sold his soul " "“There is a price to pay for the time I gave your sons. You knew this when you accepted the gift of my power. Now it is time tomake good on your bargain.”“I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due." - said to him by the daemon on aghoru
The Emperor did tell Magnus he couldn't bargain with the forces of the warp and come out unscathed. The warnings were not for lesser men, you are just making that up, that quote wasn't even a warning that was him telling a story, but it still served as a warning, a warning Magnus ignored.
The emperor warned Magnus about the dangers of messing around with sorcery, fine. But by no means did he tell Magnus about the true nature of chaos, nor about the chaos gods, nor about daemons. Magnus had to figure out what daemons were on his own.
The emperor told magnus basically (paraphrasing) "the warp is dangerous Magnus, be careful... you could wind up dead" and Magnus THOUGHT he was being careful and clever in his dealings with sorcery. The emperor did NOT warn Magnus about the true nature of chaos or daemons, or that making deals with such creatures would damn his soul no matter how clever he thought he was. Magnus ignored the emperor's vague warnings because he thought he was cleverer than the warp entities and could outsmart them like the emperor.
Magnus KNEW the emperor was conducting sorcery experiments in the Imperial palace, and found it hypocritical that he was telling Magnus not to mess with stuff he very obviously was messing with himself. Magnus knew he was the psychic equal of the emperor and thought that the emperor was trying to keep knowledge from him. The emperor, instead of explaining what he was doing or being more descriptive in his warnings to Magnus... tried to deny that he was using sorcery, and lied to the legions about what daemons were and the existence of the chaos gods.
The result was that Magnus damned himself and his legion without even realizing what he was doing... to quote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: “I made no bargain,” said Magnus, “not with the likes of you.”“Oh, but you did,” laughed the eyes. “When, in your despair, you cried out for succour in the depths of the warp, when you begged for the means to save your sons – you flew too close to the sun, Magnus. You offered up your soul to save theirs, and that debt is now due."
Magnus broke the psychic defenses around Terra because he was trying to HELP the emperor, not because he wanted to help chaos.
w1zard wrote: I don't even understand what you are saying.
The emperor warned Magnus about the dangers of messing around with sorcery, fine. But by no means did he tell Magnus about the true nature of chaos, nor about the chaos gods, nor about daemons. Magnus had to figure out what daemons were on his own.
The emperor told magnus basically (paraphrasing) "the warp is dangerous Magnus, be careful... you could wind up dead" and Magnus THOUGHT he was being careful and clever in his dealings with sorcery. The emperor did NOT warn Magnus about the true nature of chaos or daemons, or that making deals with such creatures would damn his soul no matter how clever he thought he was. Magnus ignored the emperor's vague warnings because he thought he was cleverer than the warp entities and could outsmart them like the emperor.
Magnus KNEW the emperor was conducting sorcery experiments in the Imperial palace, and found it hypocritical that he was telling Magnus not to mess with stuff he very obviously was messing with himself. Magnus knew he was the psychic equal of the emperor and thought that the emperor was trying to keep knowledge from him. The emperor, instead of explaining what he was doing or being more descriptive in his warnings to Magnus... tried to deny that he was using sorcery, and lied to the legions about what daemons were and the existence of the chaos gods.
The result was that Magnus damned himself and his legion without even realizing what he was doing... to quote:
Wrong the Primarchs knew you saw, Garviel. It is a secret thing, known to a very few, though the Emperor, beloved of all, knows more than any of us. A secret, Garviel, more than any other secret we are keeping to-day. Can you keep it? I’ll share it, for it will soothe your mind, but I need you to keep it solemnly.’‘I will,’ Loken said.The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’‘The... warp?’‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the cha-os it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’‘Sir, I...’ Loken began. ‘I have been trained in the study of the warp. I am well-prepared to face its horrors. I have fought the foul things that pour forth from the gates of the Empyrean, and yes, the warp can seep into a man and transmute him. I have seen this happen, but only in psykers. It is the risk they take. Not in Astartes.’‘Do you understand the full mechanism of the warp, Garviel?’ Horus asked. He raised the glass to the nearest light to examine the colour of the wine.‘No, sir. I don’t pretend to.’‘Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communication and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our pres-ence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, funda-mental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. ‘Spirits. Daemons. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have tak-en great pains, through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’He looked across at Loken. ‘Spirits. Daemons. The supernatu-ral. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the universe as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’‘Meaning the warp?’‘Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its horrors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words “alien” and “xenos” to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just “aliens” too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Super-natural, if you will. So let’s use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to re-member is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature.
"The emperor told magnus basically (paraphrasing) "the warp is dangerous Magnus, be careful... you could wind up dead" and Magnus THOUGHT he was being careful and clever in his dealings with sorcery." this is just a complete lie, no wonder you have to paraphrase.
Magnus KNEW the emperor was conducting sorcery experiments in the Imperial palace, and found it hypocritical that he was telling Magnus not to mess with stuff he very obviously was messing with himself. Magnus knew he was the psychic equal of the emperor and thought that the emperor was trying to keep knowledge from him. The emperor, instead of explaining what he was doing or being more descriptive in his warnings to Magnus... tried to deny that he was using sorcery, and lied to the legions about what daemons were and the existence of the chaos gods. - This is another complete lie, Magnus knew of the bargains the Emperor made but he didn't say anything about hypocrisy that's not why he disobeyed him.
Magnus knew he damned his soul after talking with the daemon on Aghoru, he still usesd sorcery, the daemon tuteleries and still broke into the lattice,
Please use the lore, if you continue to make things up I won't continue arguing.
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads. Horus never told Loken of chaos after he turned, Loken was not trusted after Davin and he no longer was in the mournival.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
Even then, theres nothing to say that the emperor was the one to give Horus this information. He could have (and most likely) got it from other sources considering the Emperor was trying to keep the existence of chaos a secret from even the primarchs.
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
No that's False Gods, Horus Rising is the first novel. Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
No that's False Gods, Horus Rising is the first novel.
Wrong. From the description of Horus Rising:
"It is the two hundred and third year of the Great Crusade, and Horus, the primarch of the Luna Wolves Legio Astartes, has been Warmaster for barely a year, after the Emperor of Mankind retired from the Crusade and returned to Terra.
Under Horus, the 63rd Expedition Fleet's first major engagement since his elevation to Warmaster is the pacification of the planet Sixty-Three-Nineteen, a human civilization whose sovereign identifies himself as "The Emperor of Mankind". For daring to suggest the existence of "another" Emperor, Horus's envoy, Captain Hastur Sejanus, is murdered by the "Emperor"'s bodyguards, the so-called "Invisibles". There is nothing for it but to make war."
Horus was already warmaster at the time of Horus Rising.
The primarchs had no idea... you are quoting something Horus said after he fell to chaos and at that point he DID know about the true nature of the warp.
Wrong I'm quoting Horus Rising the first book, this quote is Horus (still loyal) talking to Loken after Loken saw the daemon at the whisperheads.
I never said Magnus did it to help chaos. I said he did it after knowing he lost his soul bargaining with chaos.
Horus Rising takes place after Horus was made warmaster and right when he started to fall to chaos. The athame stab was just the nail in the coffin.
No that's False Gods, Horus Rising is the first novel.
Wrong. From the description of Horus Rising:
"It is the two hundred and third year of the Great Crusade, and Horus, the primarch of the Luna Wolves Legio Astartes, has been Warmaster for barely a year, after the Emperor of Mankind retired from the Crusade and returned to Terra.
Under Horus, the 63rd Expedition Fleet's first major engagement since his elevation to Warmaster is the pacification of the planet Sixty-Three-Nineteen, a human civilization whose sovereign identifies himself as "The Emperor of Mankind". For daring to suggest the existence of "another" Emperor, Horus's envoy, Captain Hastur Sejanus, is murdered by the "Emperor"'s bodyguards, the so-called "Invisibles". There is nothing for it but to make war."
Horus was already warmaster at the time of Horus Rising.
He was warmaster not traitor lol Warmaster is the title he was given at Ullanor lol Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
He was warmaster not traitor lol Warmaster is the title he was given at Ullanor lol Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
Horus being elevated to warmaster and the council of nikaea happened roughly at the same time.
He was warmaster not traitor lol Warmaster is the title he was given at Ullanor lol Google the quote and find out yourself there is a pdf of Horus Rising, you can find the quote easily.
When Horus became warmaster is when he started to be influenced by chaos. He had already started his fall at that point. The athame stab just sealed the deal and pushed him over the edge to finally embrace chaos. Remember, after he became warmaster is when chaos influenced astartes started surrounding him and whispering in his ear.
Horus knew about the nature of daemons and chaos at that point, the quote makes that quite clear. However it is far more likely that Horus found out this information from a source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret from the primarchs and space marines. Horus becoming warmaster was the beginning of the Horus Heresy, the very end of the great crusade. Magnus had already pretty much damned himself at this point without even realizing it.
No, he became Warmaster at Ullanor, when the Emperor left the Great Crusade. Have you even read the books, I mean that is a really odd thing to get so wrong.
"source other than the emperor, considering that the emperor explicitly stated to Malcador on multiple occasions that he was trying to keep the existence of chaos secret" This is just your opinion. Why would Malcador tell him if the Emperor told Malcador not to lol
Magnus damned himself and knew of it at Aghuro before the Heresy and before Nikaea.
" ...and all while he was telling the Primarchs that daemons were just another Xenos race in an ill-advised attempt to dispense with their mythological appearance and obvious possession of supernatural powers. This attempt left them vulnerable for Chaotic corruption among themselves or their Legions. Yes, He gave them incredibly vague warnings, but those were not even close to the amount of information He needed to give them..."
On Horus' fall:
"Horus himself was only pushed to fall because the Chaos Gods played on his worries that he wasn't fit to be Warmaster combined with the unrealized, greater fear that the Emperor never cared for him as a person and that he, the other Primarchs, and the Astartes as a whole would have no place in the Imperium after the Great Crusade's conclusion. (Horus likely being aware of what happened to the Thunder Warriors when they outlived their usefulness at the end of the Unification Wars probably stoked that particular fire nicely.)"
EDIT: I will try to find a quote from a book where the emperor is explaining to Malcador about keeping knowledge of chaos secret.
" ...and all while he was telling the Primarchs that daemons were just another Xenos race in an ill-advised attempt to dispense with their mythological appearance and obvious possession of supernatural powers. This attempt left them vulnerable for Chaotic corruption among themselves or their Legions. Yes, He gave them incredibly vague warnings, but those were not even close to the amount of information He needed to give them..."
On Horus' fall:
"Horus himself was only pushed to fall because the Chaos Gods played on his worries that he wasn't fit to be Warmaster combined with the unrealized, greater fear that the Emperor never cared for him as a person and that he, the other Primarchs, and the Astartes as a whole would have no place in the Imperium after the Great Crusade's conclusion. (Horus likely being aware of what happened to the Thunder Warriors when they outlived their usefulness at the end of the Unification Wars probably stoked that particular fire nicely.)"
EDIT: I will try to find a quote from a book where the emperor is explaining to Malcador about keeping knowledge of chaos secret.
Wrong, Horus said they were alien, like xenos not just another xenos race.
No he became Warmaster hundreds of years before the Heresy. Warmaster is the name of the general of the Great Crusade that was Horus, it isn't a Chaos title. He turned to safe his life and because the visions showed him he would be dispensed with after the crusade, Not because he wasn't fit to be Warmaster he already was Warmaster.
Wrong, Horus said they were alien, like xenos not just another xenos race.
No he became Warmaster hundreds of years before the Heresy. Warmaster is the name of the general of the Great Crusade that was Horus, it isn't a Chaos title. He turned to safe his life and because the visions showed him he would be dispensed with after the crusade, Not because he wasn't fit to be Warmaster he already was Warmaster.
What? You're getting basic lore details wrong. The council of nikaea happened shortly after Horus was appointed warmaster:
"...Their outcry now so insistent that it soon became a major point of contention across the entire Imperium, with the primarchs split over the issue. Eventually, on the brink of leaving the Great Crusade after the ascension of Horus Lupercal to the position of Warmaster, the Emperor was forced to call a conclave of the War Council of the Great Crusade to resolve the issue of psykers amidst the Legiones Astartes, with himself acting as arbiter. The world chosen for the great Council was called Nikaea."
The Horus Heresy happened not long after the council of nikaea. Horus was only warmaster for a short time before he fell to chaos.
Not only that, you are misunderstanding me. We know Horus knew the true nature of chaos when he started his fall to chaos, but that doesn't mean that Magnus did, or that the emperor told Horus.
Wrong, Horus said they were alien, like xenos not just another xenos race.
No he became Warmaster hundreds of years before the Heresy. Warmaster is the name of the general of the Great Crusade that was Horus, it isn't a Chaos title. He turned to safe his life and because the visions showed him he would be dispensed with after the crusade, Not because he wasn't fit to be Warmaster he already was Warmaster.
What? You're getting basic lore details wrong. The council of nikaea happened shortly after Horus was appointed warmaster:
"...Their outcry now so insistent that it soon became a major point of contention across the entire Imperium, with the primarchs split over the issue. Eventually, on the brink of leaving the Great Crusade after the ascension of Horus Lupercal to the position of Warmaster, the Emperor was forced to call a conclave of the War Council of the Great Crusade to resolve the issue of psykers amidst the Legiones Astartes, with himself acting as arbiter. The world chosen for the great Council was called Nikaea."
The Horus Heresy happened not long after the council of nikaea. Horus was only warmaster for a short time before he fell to chaos.
Not only that, you are misunderstanding me. We know Horus knew the true nature of chaos when he started his fall to chaos, but that doesn't mean that Magnus did, or that the emperor told Horus.
No he wasn't, he was Warmaster at Ullanor, then Nikaea happened, then Horus turned at Davin and then the Heresy happened. Horus was Warmaster for ages until he turned to chaos. He knew of the true nature of Chaos before his fall, he knew as well as the other Primarchs
Mortarion knew, telling Magnus that he bargained with powers that were beyond his comprehension.
Magnus new of the Chaos gods:
Yes, Ahzek,” said Magnus. “To save my sons, I made a devil’s bargain, and like the great doctor before me, I thought I had the best of it. All this time, I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine.” A psychic shockwave sent a sharp fracture knifing through the crystal, and a jagged red line appeared in the centre of the eye.“I was desperate. I had exhausted every other alternative to save you all,” hissed Magnus, his voice sending brittle cracks throughout the crystal. “From the moment I turned my other eye inwards, I knew they were there: The Eternal Powers of the Great Ocean, beings older than time with power beyond imagining. Only they had the means to save you all from hideous mutation and death, so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice. You were restored to me and I was content. What father would not do everything in his power to save his sons?
No he wasn't, he was Warmaster at Ullanor, then Nikaea happened, then Horus turned at Davin and then the Heresy happened. Horus was Warmaster for ages until he turned to chaos. He knew of the true nature of Chaos before his fall, he knew as well as the other Primarchs
Horus was warmaster for 5 years between the end of the Ulanor campaign and the drop site massacre, and he turned to chaos even before the drop site massacre.
Yes, Ahzek,” said Magnus. “To save my sons, I made a devil’s bargain, and like the great doctor before me, I thought I had the best of it. All this time, I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine.” A psychic shockwave sent a sharp fracture knifing through the crystal, and a jagged red line appeared in the centre of the eye.“I was desperate. I had exhausted every other alternative to save you all,” hissed Magnus, his voice sending brittle cracks throughout the crystal. “From the moment I turned my other eye inwards, I knew they were there: The Eternal Powers of the Great Ocean, beings older than time with power beyond imagining. Only they had the means to save you all from hideous mutation and death, so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice. You were restored to me and I was content. What father would not do everything in his power to save his sons?
This quote just proves my point that Magnus had no idea what he was dealing with. Pay attention to the part here: "I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine." Magnus was tricked into aiding chaos because of his own arrogance and because he had absolutely no idea what he was really dealing with. He was in no way a willing servant of chaos until after the Battle of Prospero.
"...so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice...." He is speaking with the benefit of hindsight here, at the time he didn't know that the chalice was "poisoned" and that the chaos gods were tricking him.
No he wasn't, he was Warmaster at Ullanor, then Nikaea happened, then Horus turned at Davin and then the Heresy happened. Horus was Warmaster for ages until he turned to chaos. He knew of the true nature of Chaos before his fall, he knew as well as the other Primarchs
Horus was warmaster for 5 years between the end of the Ulanor campaign and the drop site massacre, and he turned to chaos even before the drop site massacre.
Yes, Ahzek,” said Magnus. “To save my sons, I made a devil’s bargain, and like the great doctor before me, I thought I had the best of it. All this time, I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine.” A psychic shockwave sent a sharp fracture knifing through the crystal, and a jagged red line appeared in the centre of the eye.“I was desperate. I had exhausted every other alternative to save you all,” hissed Magnus, his voice sending brittle cracks throughout the crystal. “From the moment I turned my other eye inwards, I knew they were there: The Eternal Powers of the Great Ocean, beings older than time with power beyond imagining. Only they had the means to save you all from hideous mutation and death, so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice. You were restored to me and I was content. What father would not do everything in his power to save his sons?
This quote just proves my point that Magnus had no idea what he was dealing with. Pay attention to the part here: "I have been a blind fool, a puppet jerked on the strings of an intelligence greater than mine." Magnus was tricked into aiding chaos because of his own arrogance and because he had absolutely no idea what he was really dealing with. He was in no way a willing servant of chaos until after the Battle of Prospero.
"...so yes, I supped from their poisoned chalice...." He is speaking with the benefit of hindsight here, at the time he didn't know that the chalice was "poisoned" and that the chaos gods were tricking him.
Just admit you are wrong, so what if it was 5 years he was warmaster, that's not what you thought or said.
"He didn't know the full measure of them before the webway incident, and didn't even know they existed before Aghuro." wrong he did know the full measure before the webway the daemon told him and he admitted to Ahriman how doomed he was for treating with chaos. and he knew the powers of the warp before Aghoru.
He still knew of the powers, he knew the devastation dealing with them wrought but he thought he wouldn't be effected. But he knew of the Eternal powers.
Delvarus is correct, Magnus was carrying a montrously powerful deamon around in his book, but hard to claim he didn’t know about Deamons when he carried one everywhere.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Just admit you are wrong, so what if it was 5 years he was warmaster, that's not what you thought or said.
Your proof that Magnus knew about chaos was that Horus knew about it, so that it was reasonable to assume that Magnus knew too. My counter to that was that the quote you posted was from a Horus that was on the verge of turning to chaos himself a short time before the Horus heresy, so it would make sense that he would have found out about the true nature of chaos at this point and that doesn't mean that Magnus knew.
Formosa wrote: Delvarus is correct, Magnus was carrying a montrously powerful deamon around in his book, but hard to claim he didn’t know about Deamons when he carried one everywhere.
Magnus knew that he had trapped an extremely powerful warp entity in his book, but most likely didn't understand that it was a daemon and everything that THAT entails as we as readers do. Remember, the emperor was still trying to pretend that daemons were extradimensional xenos and that the chaos gods didn't exist at this point.
I think Magnus started to get an inkling of the true nature of chaos after Aghuro, but I don't think he really comprehended what that meant until after he broke through the psychic barriers around Terra. Magnus realized that he had been serving chaos unintentionally all along and that he had been played hard by an entity with an intelligence so vast that it entirely outstripped his own.
Magnus made bargains with daemons willingly, but he didn't realize what that MEANT. He merely thought he was bargaining for information with warp creatures. Sure it was going to cost him, but he was willing to pay for knowledge. He didn't realize until the very end that the price you pay for bargaining with daemons is your soul, no matter how clever you are.
