Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 17:28:52


Post by: Manchu


As a reminder, this is a site for discussing miniatures gaming. Discussion of contentious issues like politics is not the point of posting on Dakka Dakka. There is an ongoing debate about whether it should even be allowed. I have specifically volunteered to moderate only and not participate in this discussion. In addition to using the normal alert system, please feel free to PM me directly regarding this thread.

Please keep in mind the site rules apply:

(1) Be Polite

It is okay to disagree. Disagreement does not justify personal attacks. All argument should be about points rather than about posters. Flamebaiting is not allowed, either. This means, phrasing posts in such a way that would be likely to personally insult other posters (generalized/passive aggressive phrasing [.e.g., "people who think X are dumb"] is a common example). Furthermore, if you think someone is breaking Rule One the ONLY appropriate action is to report that post to the staff via the Yellow Triangle in the top right of the offending post. Do NOT retaliate. And keep in mind, Legoburner has created the useful Ignore button.

(2) Stay On-Topic

This is a catch-all thread for US Political topics. If you have any questions about what should or should not be posted in this thread you can always PM a moderator before posting.

(3) No Spam

Spam includes image-only replies but broadly refers to any post devoid of "discussionable" content. What qualifies is ultimately up to the staff. As with Rule One, the only appropriate response to spam is to ignore it and report it via the Yellow Triangle.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 17:38:34


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak and creating a rift between Trump and Melania. First we saw her put down Giuliani and now she has publicly come out against her husband's policy (only weakly trying to hide it a little by the "they have to work together" line),as he can stop it by himself. Trump, surprisingly has come out of left field to go after Merkel and spread some more lies about Germany and immigration:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44524873
Trump: The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!


Some interesting and stupid occurrences.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 17:41:55


Post by: djones520


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak and creating a rift between Trump and Melania. First we saw her put down Giuliani and now she has publicly come out against her husband's policy (only weakly trying to hide it a little by the "they have to work together" line),as he can stop it by himself. Trump, surprisingly has come out of left field to go after Merkel and spread some more lies about Germany and immigration:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44524873
Trump: The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!


Some interesting and stupid occurrences.


I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 17:42:27


Post by: soundwave591


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak


honestly I've been shocked at the amount of defense this action has gotten


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 17:51:48


Post by: ProtoClone


Going off of Trump's statement that America needs more military presence in space.

Can we talk about the logistics of a space military? What would actually need to be done in order to have what could conceivably be a presence in space beyond satellites.

Seeing as no one has claimed space could this lead to an arms race for territories in our solar system?

I jest but I actually do wonder.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 17:56:37


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 djones520 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak and creating a rift between Trump and Melania. First we saw her put down Giuliani and now she has publicly come out against her husband's policy (only weakly trying to hide it a little by the "they have to work together" line),as he can stop it by himself. Trump, surprisingly has come out of left field to go after Merkel and spread some more lies about Germany and immigration:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44524873
Trump: The people of Germany are turning against their leadership as migration is rocking the already tenuous Berlin coalition. Crime in Germany is way up. Big mistake made all over Europe in allowing millions of people in who have so strongly and violently changed their culture!


Some interesting and stupid occurrences.


I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.

Of course, its existed for a good while now, but its catching a lot of attention due to what the administration is doing, honestly before we got Sessions making the bible comment it was just a low rumble. The issue is that it became Trump's policy when he refused to take responsibility and pawn it off on democrats. Trump has the power to stop it today if he wants too, but instead he blames it on the democrats. It doesn't work that way, you can't blame something on someone else when you hold the power to stop it. His admin is pushing it and using the bible and democrats to justify it, that's pretty new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 soundwave591 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wow, I did not expect it to come back this quickly. Much appreciated that you decided to volunteer.

To start off, separating children from their parents if they come into the US illegally is catching a lot of flak


honestly I've been shocked at the amount of defense this action has gotten

Honestly I'm more shocked at how outright terrible the defense has been, of all the ways to approach a defense they took the most incendiary manner possible when they started quoting the bible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Going off of Trump's statement that America needs more military presence in space.

Can we talk about the logistics of a space military? What would actually need to be done in order to have what could conceivably be a presence in space beyond satellites.

Seeing as no one has claimed space could this lead to an arms race for territories in our solar system?

I jest but I actually do wonder.

Well the Outer Space Treaty the US is a signatory of specifically prohibits claiming territory by the military in space. You would be basically tied to some weapons satellites in orbit as long as they aren't WMDs.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:03:42


Post by: RiTides


Misquoting (imo) and agreed it's terrible . There's plenty more about being kind to the alien, orphan and widow...

Good to see a lot of groups that normally tolerate Trump pushing back on this, though. I hope they get it sorted quickly!



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:05:59


Post by: Ustrello


Well we already have Kinetic Bombardment satellites in space, as they are not covered under the space armament treaty


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:09:11


Post by: ProtoClone


Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:11:00


Post by: Ouze


There are a lot of Trump policies I disagree with, but at least generally there is some underlying logic to why they exist, or at least, you know, some lobby that is being serviced by them.

The child separation policy is remarkable in that it serves no lobby or purpose other than sheer fething awfulness. I suspect that Trump will walk it back over the next couple of days, and then claim to be a good guy to ending (non-existent) policy that was (not actually) pushed by the Democrats (despite the fact his own administration invented it). You can see this with NK, where he ratcheted up tension and then took credit for alleviating it.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:11:32


Post by: Ustrello




Well when the administration uses the Bible as a justification for them to separate the children and even Sessions church thinks he has gone beyond the pale, you know it is getting bad


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:15:11


Post by: Ouze


 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


Can you cite this? If you're talking about child seperation, I don't believe this is factually accurate. You can't tell me that if the Obama administration had been separating migrant children from their parents at the border, not one single media personality or element of the right wing wouldn't have made hay of it in the last 8 years.

And, in fact, this wasn't a problem for over an entire year of the Trump administration. So I definitely would like to see you show that this routine separation of children from their parents at the border was a common wide practice for 20 years, instead of about 2 months ago.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:16:30


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.

But that's Trump being Trump, as for now he has to get rid off the treaty and then there are still huge technological and financial obstacles to anything effective.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:18:41


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Bane


 Ustrello wrote:


Well when the administration uses the Bible as a justification for them to separate the children and even Sessions church thinks he has gone beyond the pale, you know it is getting bad



Actually the Catholic Church is considering 'Canonical Penalties' to Catholics who participate in this:
http://www.newsweek.com/catholic-bishop-suggests-canonical-penalties-catholics-help-carry-out-trump-975834

BISHOP PROPOSES ‘CANONICAL PENALTIES’ FOR CATHOLICS WHO HELP CARRY OUT TRUMP IMMIGRATION PLAN

Bishop Edward Weisenburger of Arizona suggested that penalties be put in place for Catholics who help carry out President Donald Trump’s immigration policy of separating families who cross the United States border illegally. He made the recommendation while speaking at the spring meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Wednesday.

“Canonical penalties are there in place to heal,” he said, according to Religion News Service. “And therefore, for the salvation of these people’s souls, maybe it’s time for us to look at canonical penalties.”

A canonical penalty is defined as a punishment imposed by the church, which could include purgatory or excommunication. Catholic church laws are outlined in the Code of Canon law, a system of laws for regulation within the church.

Others joined Weisenburger in denouncement of the Trump immigration policy, which was introduced by Attorney General Jeff Sessions. Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, president of the USCCB, read a statement at the event. “Our government has the discretion in our laws to ensure that young children are not separated from their parents and exposed to irreparable harm and trauma. Families are the foundational element of our society and they must be able to stay together,” he said. “Separating babies from their mothers is not the answer and is immoral.”

According to RNS, DiNardo asked the room of religious figures to clap if they agreed with him and the crowd “erupted in applause.”

The immigration plan was introduced as a “zero tolerance” policy earlier this month, designed to deter Central American families from crossing the border. One of the new provisions, as outlined by Attorney General Jeff Sessions, allows children to be separated from their parents when they are apprehended for trying to cross the border illegally.

“If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law,” Sessions said, outlining the Trump administration’s stricter immigration stance. “If you don’t like that, then don’t smuggle children over our border.”

The new immigration policy states that charged adults get sent to federal court while children are sent to the Department of Health and Human Services’s Office of Refugee Resettlement. In April, members of the Trump administration testified they lost track of nearly 1,500 undocumented minors that had been taken into custody.

Trump, who identifies as Presbyterian, has advocated for heightened border security and a border wall since taking office and throughout his campaign.



I'm not Catholic, or even Christian, but I will give the Church credit where it is due. This is plainly immoral, and as a nation, we cannot claim to be the best bastion of freedom, and pull crap like this.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:18:54


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.


Putting military personnel in space is pointless. They are incredibly vulnerable whilst they're up there, sustaining their presence would cost a fortune, they wouldn't be able to deploy to earth discreetly (their orbit would be known and so the point at which they'd need to begin reentry to arrive at a set location would be calculable) and there is no point in having any non WMD weapon in orbit and WMDs are banned and we seriously don't want nuclear proliferation into earth orbit.

Basically, Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand the first thing about space exploration/travel. He probably just watched Starship Troopers or something before his speech.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:23:02


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Ouze wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


Can you cite this? If you're talking about child seperation, I don't believe this is factually accurate. You can't tell me that if the Obama administration had been separating migrant children from their parents at the border, not one single media personality or element of the right wing wouldn't have made hay of it in the last 8 years.

And, in fact, this wasn't a problem for over an entire year of the Trump administration. So I definitely would like to see you show that this routine separation of children from their parents at the border was a common wide practice for 20 years, instead of about 2 months ago.

The policy to be able to existed right? Its just that it was rarely enforced up until the current administration?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:27:01


Post by: Ouze


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The policy to be able to existed right? Its just that it was rarely enforced up until the current administration?


Long answer here, but essentially simply border crossing - a misdemeanor - was not usually criminally referred. As such there were no routine, widespread separations of children.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:27:02


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.


Putting military personnel in space is pointless. They are incredibly vulnerable whilst they're up there, sustaining their presence would cost a fortune, they wouldn't be able to deploy to earth discreetly (their orbit would be known and so the point at which they'd need to begin reentry to arrive at a set location would be calculable) and there is no point in having any non WMD weapon in orbit and WMDs are banned and we seriously don't want nuclear proliferation into earth orbit.

Basically, Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand the first thing about space exploration/travel. He probably just watched Starship Troopers or something before his speech.

I would assume we will never see the deployment of anything resembling an effective military in space for at least our lifetime if ever depending on where the technical limitations are going to be.

As for Trump, maybe when people tell him illegal aliens are coming to kill and rob in the US he thinks they mean Arachnids


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The policy to be able to existed right? Its just that it was rarely enforced up until the current administration?


Long answer here.

When you said long answer I kind of felt let down when it was done in two scrolls. From my read on it, this could have been done before, but other admins didn't go for the heavy handed persecution approach that mandates separating families. So it is his policy in the end then. Thanks


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:37:16


Post by: d-usa


 Ouze wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


Can you cite this? If you're talking about child seperation, I don't believe this is factually accurate. You can't tell me that if the Obama administration had been separating migrant children from their parents at the border, not one single media personality or element of the right wing wouldn't have made hay of it in the last 8 years.

And, in fact, this wasn't a problem for over an entire year of the Trump administration. So I definitely would like to see you show that this routine separation of children from their parents at the border was a common wide practice for 20 years, instead of about 2 months ago.


It has been policy that we don’t lock up the children for 20 years. For the past 20 years we have managed to avoid separating children and parents by also not locking up the parents. So it’s not wrong to claim that the policy existed under Clinton/Bush/Obama, it is wrong to claim that they have all solved the problem the policy created in the same way as the current administration.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I need to find out who I need to talk to for an Interservice Transfer to the Space Force. I hope they get cool uniforms.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:45:30


Post by: Ouze


On the one hand, the Space Force sounds like kind of a stupid idea, should really be stuff the Air Force does, and seems like a cheap and quick distraction from yet another unfortunate news cycle full of the usual self-inflicted wounds.

On the other hand, any US Marines that are inducted into the Space Force are going to be, by definition, Space Marines. So we'd have that going for us.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:45:56


Post by: Vaktathi


 d-usa wrote:

I need to find out who I need to talk to for an Interservice Transfer to the Space Force. I hope they get cool uniforms.
Spandex onesies, you know the rules.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:54:31


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Vaktathi wrote:
 d-usa wrote:

I need to find out who I need to talk to for an Interservice Transfer to the Space Force. I hope they get cool uniforms.
Spandex onesies, you know the rules.

You're obviously wrong, velour is the winner's choice


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 18:57:44


Post by: Ustrello


Am I surprised? No. Should I be surprised? Also probably no


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/392756-poll-kim-jong-un-has-higher-approval-among-republicans-than-pelosi

More Republicans view North Korean leader Kim Jong Un favorably than do House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), according to a poll released Monday.

The Ipsos survey conducted for the Daily Beast found that among Republicans, 19 percent indicated they hold a favorable opinion of Kim, while 17 percent said they have a favorable opinion of Pelosi.

Sixty-eight percent of Republicans said they held an unfavorable opinion of Kim, while 72 percent said they had an unfavorable view of Pelosi.

“On a daily basis, President Trump praises this dictator and thug so it only makes sense that his party is following his lead like lemmings over a cliff," Pelosi spokesman Drew Hammill wrote in an email to The Hill responding to the poll findings.

The spokesman also pointed to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's (R-Ky.) unfavorable rating in the Ipsos poll, saying he "is the most unpopular politician in the country." The poll found that only 20 percent of all respondents have a favorable opinion of the majority leader.

Republicans have long criticized Pelosi, using her in campaign ads to rally their base. Meanwhile, the survey results involving Kim come just one week after President Trump’s historic summit with the North Korean leader in Singapore, where the two leaders discussed reining in Pyongyang's nuclear program.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 19:41:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Ouze wrote:
There are a lot of Trump policies I disagree with, but at least generally there is some underlying logic to why they exist, or at least, you know, some lobby that is being serviced by them.

The child separation policy is remarkable in that it serves no lobby or purpose other than sheer fething awfulness. I suspect that Trump will walk it back over the next couple of days, and then claim to be a good guy to ending (non-existent) policy that was (not actually) pushed by the Democrats (despite the fact his own administration invented it). You can see this with NK, where he ratcheted up tension and then took credit for alleviating it.
It seems that this is a ham-handed tactic to extort funding for the border wall in exchange for ending child seperation: use existing policy to do something Dems don't like, make them get blame for it, force them to come to the table to end it, get funding for wall and cause political damage to the Dems. But that's obviously not going to work like that, so it's gross political incompetence.

It's also the most morally disgusting action the US has taken this century and I wouldn't be surprised to see it remain as such even when the century is over. Hell short of Jim Crowe laws level policy I'm having trouble thinking of anything the US has done post civil war that's this bad. At least in Japanese internment camps they didn't separate the families.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 19:42:47


Post by: Tannhauser42


It strikes me as being a tad bit premature to start working on a space force at the moment. On one hand, if it leads to NASA getting more funding to develop new stuff, great. On the other hand, the militarization of space is not a happy thought. The exploration of what lies beyond our planet should be something that unites us.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 19:46:14


Post by: d-usa


I could see a NASA Commissioned Corps, similar to NOAA and USPHS, which would also seem to help with the whole non-militarized space treaties that we are signatories to.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 20:03:42


Post by: WrentheFaceless


Well we arent quite at the space elevator or Gundam level of tech yet for a space force

But sounds just like another deal (treaty) that Trump either wants to back out of, or someone is telling him he wants to back out of.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 20:07:13


Post by: Tannhauser42


 WrentheFaceless wrote:


But sounds just like another deal (treaty) that Trump either wants to back out of, or someone is telling him he wants to back out of.


Honestly, it sounds more like someone is trying to sell him something, literally. Like there are some companies out there already positioned to make money off this.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 20:27:59


Post by: Gitzbitah


Yeah, as I understand it we are really, really good at knocking man made things out of orbit from Earth, with ASATs, and the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle (I love everything about that name!)

What advantage could be gained from a Space Force right now? Orbit seems both very well covered, and a remarkably dangerous place to put troops.

It doesn't so much strike me as unnecessary as premature.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 20:28:43


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


 Ouze wrote:
On the one hand, the Space Force sounds like kind of a stupid idea, should really be stuff the Air Force does, and seems like a cheap and quick distraction from yet another unfortunate news cycle full of the usual self-inflicted wounds.

On the other hand, any US Marines that are inducted into the Space Force are going to be, by definition, Space Marines. So we'd have that going for us.


If in the unlikely event the Royal Marines get there first, we'll have Royal Space marines


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 20:42:56


Post by: whembly


 Ouze wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The policy to be able to existed right? Its just that it was rarely enforced up until the current administration?


Long answer here, but essentially simply border crossing - a misdemeanor - was not usually criminally referred. As such there were no routine, widespread separations of children.


What's change was the Zero Tolerance policy of current administration.

That laws been on the books for quite some time.

You can't put the children in detention centers...because, WTF would you do that?

You can't simply release the family on a promise to come back to immigration court when actual laws were broken...

The actual safe measure that keeps the family together AND remain kosher to our current laws is to deport the families back home. If some of these are legit asylum case, then they can be deported to their neighboring country and go through the port of entry to claim asylum (which is the international norm). The problem here (with respect to asylum requests in many of these cases) is that requesting asylum often is demanded when caught illegally crossing the borders...which complicate things quite a bit because it takes much longer to adjudicate.

Basically, Trump can either direct the DOJ to use prosecutial discretion and choose NOT to enforce the laws on the books, which is fraught with perils as border states may sue the Feds (like we've seen in the past)... or, Congress can get their asses together and pass laws to address this.






US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 20:55:00


Post by: Whirlwind


 Gitzbitah wrote:
Yeah, as I understand it we are really, really good at knocking man made things out of orbit from Earth, with ASATs, and the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle (I love everything about that name!)


This is relatively easy once you have orbital ballistics sorted out. Things orbit in a very constrained way so once you are there it is stupidly easy to hit something. And because it is space a simple nominal impact is likely to take it out. The bigger issue is the debris you will cause by doing so. If it is in the main orbital area of satellites and create millions of bits of debris you are likely to take out more than just the target satellite. The most effective weapon in space is a tonne of iron filings scattered all over the place.

What advantage could be gained from a Space Force right now? Orbit seems both very well covered, and a remarkably dangerous place to put troops.


It's also relatively pointless. Give a soldier any type of ballistic weapon (say an M16) and they might be able to shoot one person before they are spinning uncontrollably or flying off at a fair rate of knots in the opposite direction because of physical conservation laws.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 20:58:44


Post by: Vaktathi


 whembly wrote:
If some of these are legit asylum case, then they can be deported to their neighboring country and go through the port of entry to claim asylum (which is the international norm).
The problem currently being that it appears Asylum seekers presenting themselves at ports of entry are being actively turned away/strung along for days or weeks being told "the port of entry is at capacity" without any explanarion or reason, while claims on what Asylum can be sought for are being narrowed. Essentially they're being told "No Entry" without actually having an official "No Entry" policy.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:02:26


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Whirlwind wrote:


What advantage could be gained from a Space Force right now? Orbit seems both very well covered, and a remarkably dangerous place to put troops.


It's also relatively pointless. Give a soldier any type of ballistic weapon (say an M16) and they might be able to shoot one person before they are spinning uncontrollably or flying off at a fair rate of knots in the opposite direction because of physical conservation laws.


Do recoilless rifles not work in space?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:13:30


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Whirlwind wrote:


What advantage could be gained from a Space Force right now? Orbit seems both very well covered, and a remarkably dangerous place to put troops.


It's also relatively pointless. Give a soldier any type of ballistic weapon (say an M16) and they might be able to shoot one person before they are spinning uncontrollably or flying off at a fair rate of knots in the opposite direction because of physical conservation laws.


Do recoilless rifles not work in space?


Recoilless rifles don't have no recoil, just less recoil.

And they legitimately might not work, due to the effects of the vacuum on the powder, firing mechanisms etc. Though gunpowder contains its own oxidizer, so you would get an ignition.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:15:09


Post by: Henry


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Do recoilless rifles not work in space?

Recoilless is a misnomer. Basic physics says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you flick a Malteeser away from you in 0g you'll be pushed with an equal amount of force. Recoilless just reduces the recoil, it doesn't eliminate the forces (otherwise your projectile wouldn't make it out of the chamber).


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:20:51


Post by: djones520


Mag boots and core strength. Problem solved.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:22:29


Post by: Laughing Man


 Henry wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Do recoilless rifles not work in space?

Recoilless is a misnomer. Basic physics says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you flick a Malteeser away from you in 0g you'll be pushed with an equal amount of force. Recoilless just reduces the recoil, it doesn't eliminate the forces (otherwise your projectile wouldn't make it out of the chamber).

Not technically true. Recoilless rifles aren't truly recoilless, but the vast majority of it is simply the exhaust gasses that are thrown from the back of the weapon, as it's essentially just a big rocket launcher (this also has the side effect of shooting a nice big jet of fire out the rear end). There's actually some slight forward recoil on the things, as the vacuum of the round leaving the tube pulls the whole thing forward.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:23:06


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Henry wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Do recoilless rifles not work in space?

Recoilless is a misnomer. Basic physics says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you flick a Malteeser away from you in 0g you'll be pushed with an equal amount of force. Recoilless just reduces the recoil, it doesn't eliminate the forces (otherwise your projectile wouldn't make it out of the chamber).


What about stuff like anti-tank missiles with water counterweights? There's recoil, it's just acting on the water, not you.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:23:51


Post by: Easy E


 NinthMusketeer wrote:


It's also the most morally disgusting action the US has taken this century and I wouldn't be surprised to see it remain as such even when the century is over. Hell short of Jim Crowe laws level policy I'm having trouble thinking of anything the US has done post civil war that's this bad. At least in Japanese internment camps they didn't separate the families.


Have we all ready forgotten about "Extraordinary Rendition" to black sites that allowed torture or do you think this is worse than that? Just curious.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:25:27


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 djones520 wrote:
Mag boots and core strength. Problem solved.


Spacecraft hulls aren't made of magnetic materials.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Henry wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Do recoilless rifles not work in space?

Recoilless is a misnomer. Basic physics says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you flick a Malteeser away from you in 0g you'll be pushed with an equal amount of force. Recoilless just reduces the recoil, it doesn't eliminate the forces (otherwise your projectile wouldn't make it out of the chamber).


What about stuff like anti-tank missiles with water counterweights? There's recoil, it's just acting on the water, not you.


The force acting on the water pushes the water backwards, into something else (back of the water container) that gets pushed backwards. On Earth you have the benefits of stuff like friction to keep you in place. No such luxury in space.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:38:41


Post by: Frazzled


Can we make a post thanking Manchu for modding this thread? Manchu, dakka's own masochist.

To the topic.
Saw the Ministry of Propaganda's interview with Our Leader. While I agree with the positions, they literally have nothing to do with the immigration system now splitting kids.

Look I have a stickie note. That should take care of an immigration bill. What's the damn deal?
1. If you are here now, you are added to the list of people on the citizen track.

2. Budget for border control X500%.

3. H1Bs revamped for real need.

I'm out. (Drops Mike)


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:47:57


Post by: BaronIveagh


 whembly wrote:

and go through the port of entry to claim asylum (which is the international norm).


Apparently, as part of the Zero Tolerance policy, the US is taking those people's kids too. The basic premise goes something like this:

The administration has promised to prosecute all fraudulent asylum claims. If the boarder agents suspect the claim is fraudulent, they remand the person to Federal Prison to await trial. Their children are thus unaccompanied minors, and off to the Child Internment Camp you go. When the judge rules that the person is not, in fact, committing fraud, then it can take two to eight months for you to get your children back, if they haven't been handed off to human traffickers by ORR.

These people are in the country legally. The Trump administration, in a move as subtle as a whore in church, has blamed Congress for 'forcing them' to hold these children hostage, effectively, in order to get Trump his wall. I'm not joking.


Maybe someone should let ol Don know that America does not negotiate with Terrorists?


And if Jeff Sessions want's to quote scripture on this, let me break out some Matthew: 25, 34-40

Jesus of Nazareth wrote:

Then shall the king say to them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of my father: take the inheritance of the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I thirsted, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in unto you.
I was naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in unto us? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the king shall answer, and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:54:15


Post by: cuda1179


I do disagree heavily when in comes to separating children and parents at the border. I'd prefer if they were kept together.


However...….. Immigrant activists have been stating for years that those that are caught crossing the border illegally should be treated the same as any other suspect being processed through the system (as in they should get lawyers). Be careful what you ask for. Now you are being treated like any other detainee, as I can think of no other person being processed for a crime that gets to keep their children with them, especially if they were potentially putting their children at risk.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 21:56:24


Post by: d-usa


Congress is letting themselves get played by Trump, who is able to tell them that they cannot pass any bills while at the same time successfully blaming them for not passing any bills.

Both chambers are refusing to pass, or even just vote on, any kind of bill that Trump doesn't approve off or said that he won't sign. After 6 years of the GOP proclaiming Congress an equal branch of government to the White House with important oversight functions over the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch has basically turned itself into some weird parliamentary system where no bill will proceed without authorization by Prime Minister Trump. If Presidential Approval is required for any kind of Legislative Action, and if we cannot pass any bills that POTUS won't sign, then how the hell did we end up with 14,852 ObamaCare Repeal Bills under President Obama?

Congress needs to put on their big girl and big boy pants, tell the executive branch to feth off, resume their role as an equal branch of government who checks and balances the Executive Branch, and pass some fething bills. If Trump doesn't sign them, then they can go back to saying that they did their job and go back to passing more bills. But by not even giving him a bill to veto, Congress can't even go back to their old tactic of "we send the President a [bullcrap] bill, but he didn't sing it. We did our job, he didn't do his".

With the immigration bill, there is a bipartisan bill in the House that has the votes to pass. But Ryan won't let it get any votes, which goes back to another issue I have with the House: The Speaker of the House should not be the Speaker of the Majority Party. Ryan represents Pelosi the same as he represents every member of the GOP in that chamber. The Majority Party and the Minority Party both have their own leaders who are responsible for making sure that the members of their parties vote in line with the party interest and all that jazz. But the Speaker of the House should represent the agenda and the interest of the ENTIRE House, not just their own party. Both parties are guilty of treating what should be a non-partisan office as a leadership office within their respective parties.

Maybe it's time for someone to finally appoint someone from outside the House as speaker.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:01:24


Post by: cuda1179


 d-usa wrote:
Both chambers are refusing to pass, or even just vote on, any kind of bill that Trump doesn't approve off or said that he won't sign. After 6 years of the GOP proclaiming Congress an equal branch of government to the White House with important oversight functions over the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch has basically turned itself into some weird parliamentary system where no bill will proceed without authorization by Prime Minister Trump. If Presidential Approval is required for any kind of Legislative Action, and if we cannot pass any bills that POTUS won't sign, then how the hell did we end up with 14,852 ObamaCare Repeal Bills under President Obama?

Congress needs to put on their big girl and big boy pants, tell the executive branch to feth off, resume their role as an equal branch of government who checks and balances the Executive Branch, and pass some fething bills..


While I generally agree with you on the topic, when Congress did pass those 14,852 bills that Obama wouldn't sign they were panned as being a complete waste of time (both by the media and members of this forum).


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:03:58


Post by: Kanluwen


 cuda1179 wrote:

While I generally agree with you on the topic, when Congress did pass those 14,852 bills that Obama wouldn't sign they were panned as being a complete waste of time (both by the media and members of this forum).

Because the majority of those bills were a complete waste of time. They were things Republicans pushed through specifically so they could claim Obama was being an obstructionist.

That's d-usa's whole point. They spent so long crowing about how they're his "equal" and that they're the ones who put him into check, but now that the shoe is on the other foot--nada.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:04:04


Post by: d-usa


I like how you cut off the very next sentence that addressed your point...

But by not even giving him a bill to veto, Congress can't even go back to their old tactic of "we send the President a [bullcrap] bill, but he didn't sing it. We did our job, he didn't do his".


They don't even have a talking point of pretending to address the issue. Trump has all the talking points in his pocket.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:04:18


Post by: BaronIveagh


 cuda1179 wrote:

However...….. Immigrant activists have been stating for years that those that are caught crossing the border illegally should be treated the same as any other suspect being processed through the system (as in they should get lawyers). Be careful what you ask for. Now you are being treated like any other detainee, as I can think of no other person being processed for a crime that gets to keep their children with them, especially if they were potentially putting their children at risk.


And if they were all committing crimes, you might have a point: but we're not waiting for that, are we? This is my beef with this is that the US has been taking the kids of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AS WELL. People who followed all the rules, and were treated as criminals ANYWAY.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:14:40


Post by: Easy E


This smells a lot like red meat thrown to the 'Base" to get them fired up for the 2018 election cycle.

If that is true, the world is even more cynical than I feared. Please for the love of the maker, someone please tell me this is not true.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:20:01


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Easy E wrote:
This smells a lot like red meat thrown to the 'Base" to get them fired up for the 2018 election cycle.

If that is true, the world is even more cynical than I feared. Please for the love of the maker, someone please tell me this is not true.


https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/ice-separates-18-month-old-mother-months

Sorry, Amigo, it's not just illegals they're doing it to, but pretty much anyone seeking asylum. Some of these people are not even being charged with a crime, they're just taking their kids.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:21:24


Post by: Frazzled


Cynicism is the last refuge...of the informed.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:24:08


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Frazzled wrote:
Cynicism is the last refuge...of the informed.


I thought Mar-a-lago was the last refuge of the coward?

I mean, seriously, this man is using children as effective hostages to force Congress to do what he wants. That's low.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:43:16


Post by: d-usa


Mexico will pay for this wall. And if they don’t we’ll take their children away from parents until Americans will pay for this wall.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 22:48:35


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Easy E wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:


It's also the most morally disgusting action the US has taken this century and I wouldn't be surprised to see it remain as such even when the century is over. Hell short of Jim Crowe laws level policy I'm having trouble thinking of anything the US has done post civil war that's this bad. At least in Japanese internment camps they didn't separate the families.


Have we all ready forgotten about "Extraordinary Rendition" to black sites that allowed torture or do you think this is worse than that? Just curious.
I do. What these children are going through is as psychologically damaging as torture (it is, in essence, mental and emotional torture) on top of being not only innocent of any wrongdoing. Further it is entirely impossible for them to be anything but innocent. Torture of suspected/confirmed terrorists is also terrible, unjustified, and entirely at odds with American values not to mention basic human decency. This is worse.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 23:30:09


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.

But that's Trump being Trump, as for now he has to get rid off the treaty and then there are still huge technological and financial obstacles to anything effective.

Russia already has a space force though, despite being a signatory of the same treaty. As do the Chinese. There is a lot you can do without breaking the treaty. The biggest military benefit of space is not in weapons, but in communications and intelligence satellites. The main task of any space force is the defense of their satellites and the destruction of enemy ones (which also means that space force soldiers never actually go into space, despite the name). I also think that is why Trump is calling on this now. The US has been a lot slower than Russia and especially China to enhance its anti-satellite warfare capabilities. I suspect that the Pentagon and Trump want to close this "space missile gap", which is why Trump is calling for a 'space force' now. So yeah, it is not as silly as it might sound, and neither would it break international treaties. Quite the contrary, I think setting up a dedicated 'space force' would be very much in US interests.

Relevant article:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2018/06/18/trump-embraces-space-force-as-russia-china-threaten-critical-orbital-systems-of-u-s/#3ae83ad9eece

 d-usa wrote:
Mexico will pay for this wall. And if they don’t we’ll take their children away from parents until Americans will pay for this wall.

But will you make Mexico pay for having to take care of their children?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/18 23:31:55


Post by: Vulcan


 BaronIveagh wrote:

And if Jeff Sessions want's to quote scripture on this, let me break out some Matthew: 25, 34-40

Jesus of Nazareth wrote:

Then shall the king say to them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of my father: take the inheritance of the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I thirsted, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in unto you.
I was naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in unto us? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the king shall answer, and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me.


Which is, of course, DA EBIL SOCIALIZM!!!!1!1!


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:03:10


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Cynicism is the last refuge...of the informed.


I thought Mar-a-lago was the last refuge of the coward?

I mean, seriously, this man is using children as effective hostages to force Congress to do what he wants. That's low.


You quoted my post but it has nothing to do with your post.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:17:39


Post by: cuda1179


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:

However...….. Immigrant activists have been stating for years that those that are caught crossing the border illegally should be treated the same as any other suspect being processed through the system (as in they should get lawyers). Be careful what you ask for. Now you are being treated like any other detainee, as I can think of no other person being processed for a crime that gets to keep their children with them, especially if they were potentially putting their children at risk.


And if they were all committing crimes, you might have a point: but we're not waiting for that, are we? This is my beef with this is that the US has been taking the kids of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AS WELL. People who followed all the rules, and were treated as criminals ANYWAY.


Wait, so totally innocent people are sometimes drug through the mud of the legal system even though they haven't actually committed a crime? Huh, i guess illegals really are being treated like criminal defendants.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:23:34


Post by: whembly


 Frazzled wrote:
Can we make a post thanking Manchu for modding this thread? Manchu, dakka's own masochist.

THANKS manchu!!!

To the topic.
Saw the Ministry of Propaganda's interview with Our Leader. While I agree with the positions, they literally have nothing to do with the immigration system now splitting kids.

Look I have a stickie note. That should take care of an immigration bill. What's the damn deal?
1. If you are here now, you are added to the list of people on the citizen track.

2. Budget for border control X500%.

3. H1Bs revamped for real need.

I'm out. (Drops Mike)

*picks up mics and whispers*
no one wants to fix this.

*drops mike*


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:27:27


Post by: Ustrello


What voter ID laws are unconstitutional? I never would of guessed

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/392893-judge-rules-against-kobach-in-voter-registration-case

A federal judge on Monday permanently struck down Kansas's proof-of-citizenship voter registration law, handing down a blistering ruling against Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, one of the country's most vocal advocates of voter-ID laws.

In the 118-page ruling, U.S. District Judge Julie Robinson wrote that the state’s requirement that voters show proof of citizenship during registration violated both the Constitution and the National Voter Registration Act.

Robinson struck down the stringent law, and ordered Kobach to take six additional hours of continuing legal education that “pertain to federal or Kansas civil rules of procedure or evidence.”

Robinson wrote that the law, championed by Kobach, prevented “tens of thousands of eligible citizens” from registering to vote before she issued a preliminary injunction, and that “the process of completing the registration process was burdensome for them.”
According to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Kobach’s law blocked some 35,000 Kansans from being able to register to vote.

In an earlier court order, Robinson had held Kobach in contempt for skirting court orders related to the law and failing to send postcards confirming registration for thousands of voters.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:44:27


Post by: AdeptSister


I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:49:39


Post by: BaronIveagh


 cuda1179 wrote:

Wait, so totally innocent people are sometimes drug through the mud of the legal system even though they haven't actually committed a crime?


No, in some cases they're NOT EVEN BOTHERING WITH THAT. Literally they're just TAKING these people kids. Think child abduction but by the state.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:50:18


Post by: Ustrello


 AdeptSister wrote:
I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.


Make it hard for one demographic to vote, but certain posters here would tell you otherwise


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:50:32


Post by: cuda1179


The thing is, that the longer we go the easier it will be for people that are legal citizens to prove their legality. The time might not be now, but at some point in the future this really won't be that burdensome


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:51:57


Post by: BaronIveagh


 cuda1179 wrote:
The thing is, that the longer we go the easier it will be for people that are legal citizens to prove their legality. The time might not be now, but at some point in the future this really won't be that burdensome


And then steal that legality and take out loans in their name. The more you depend on a piece of plastic, the easier it is to steal soemone's identity.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:55:00


Post by: cuda1179


 Ustrello wrote:
 AdeptSister wrote:
I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.


Make it hard for one demographic to vote, but certain posters here would tell you otherwise


On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
The thing is, that the longer we go the easier it will be for people that are legal citizens to prove their legality. The time might not be now, but at some point in the future this really won't be that burdensome


And then steal that legality and take out loans in their name. The more you depend on a piece of plastic, the easier it is to steal soemone's identity.


Actually, isn't it technically harder to steal someone's identity now than it was 40 years ago?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 00:58:54


Post by: Ustrello


 cuda1179 wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 AdeptSister wrote:
I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.


Make it hard for one demographic to vote, but certain posters here would tell you otherwise


On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
The thing is, that the longer we go the easier it will be for people that are legal citizens to prove their legality. The time might not be now, but at some point in the future this really won't be that burdensome


And then steal that legality and take out loans in their name. The more you depend on a piece of plastic, the easier it is to steal soemone's identity.


Actually, isn't it technically harder to steal someone's identity now than it was 40 years ago?


I think it has been pretty much proven that voter id laws specifically target minorities and every time that is brought up the same half dozen or so posters bring up the same hand waving points like you just did


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:04:48


Post by: cuda1179


Voter ID laws hit the poor, which happen to be disproportionately minority. While that is bad, I do think that laws that try to make sure only people that can legally vote are the ones voting.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:09:04


Post by: Tannhauser42


So, how about that trade war? $50B not enough? How about another $200B on Chinese imports? Does Trump really not understand that this really only hurts the average American?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:12:50


Post by: Ouze


 cuda1179 wrote:
On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Yes? Because there isn't?

In-person voter fraud has no tangible benefits and enormous penalties, along with a very vocal lobby to ensure they are prosecuted. That's why statistically it does not exist. These aren't difficult concepts, just simply math.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:13:51


Post by: whembly


Cruz... submitted a bill:
https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=3892

The deets:
Double the number of federal immigration judges, from roughly 375 to 750.

Authorize new temporary shelters, with accommodations to keep families together.

Mandate that illegal immigrant families must be kept together, absent aggravated criminal conduct or threat of harm to the children.

Provide for expedited processing and review of asylum cases, so that—within 14 days—those who meet the legal standards will be granted asylum, and those who do not will be immediately returned to their home countries.


Solid.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:15:23


Post by: Ouze


Come on, Ted Cruz. Don't make me ever, ever like anything you do.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:16:41


Post by: Ustrello


 Ouze wrote:
Come on, Ted Cruz. Don't make me ever, ever like anything you do.



Every time he does something good I remember he is the zodiac killer and that goes away


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:19:44


Post by: Tannhauser42


 Ustrello wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Come on, Ted Cruz. Don't make me ever, ever like anything you do.



Every time he does something good I remember he is the zodiac killer and that goes away


While Ted Cruz is s narcissistic attention whore outdone only by Trump in 2016, he's also not an idiot: he can see which way the wind is blowing and he's setting his sails now because he's up for re-election.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:21:49


Post by: d-usa


 Ouze wrote:
Come on, Ted Cruz. Don't make me ever, ever like anything you do.



To be fair, he’s always been pro-family.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:22:44


Post by: Ouze


 Ustrello wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Come on, Ted Cruz. Don't make me ever, ever like anything you do.



Every time he does something good I remember he is the zodiac killer and that goes away


There was a minute there in 2016 when it looked like he wouldn't endorse Trump. I don't know if you remember, but it was like, when literally everyone else pretty much had; he was like the last holdout. Maybe it's because he called Ted's wife ugly, maybe it's because he claimed Ted's dad killed JFK, I dunno why, but he game some really impassioned arguments about why Trump was going to be a dumpster fire. And I remember thinking at the time, man, this guy is going to look like a visionary in a few years - like Mitt Romney almost did before he changed his name to Reek.

BUT IN THE END, he bent the knee like they all did. It was the closest I ever came to admiring the man who undoubtedly was responsible for a series of slayings from the late 1960s to early 1970s.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
To be fair, he’s always been pro-family.


LOL, I totally forgot about that. Yeah that was another excellent Ted Cruz moment - I laughed so hard I momentarily forgot about the mocking series of communications he sent to the police and reporters.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:31:53


Post by: Ustrello


 Ouze wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Come on, Ted Cruz. Don't make me ever, ever like anything you do.



Every time he does something good I remember he is the zodiac killer and that goes away


There was a minute there in 2016 when it looked like he wouldn't endorse Trump. I don't know if you remember, but it was like, when literally everyone else pretty much had; he was like the last holdout. Maybe it's because he called Ted's wife ugly, maybe it's because he claimed Ted's dad killed JFK, I dunno why, but he game some really impassioned arguments about why Trump was going to be a dumpster fire. And I remember thinking at the time, man, this guy is going to look like a visionary in a few years - like Mitt Romney almost did before he changed his name to Reek.

BUT IN THE END, he bent the knee like they all did. It was the closest I ever came to admiring the man who undoubtedly was responsible for a series of slayings from the late 1960s to early 1970s.




For me it is also that he took 40k in donations from Comcast to tweet an anti-NN stance and call people who favored NN snowflakes. The guy is an all around evil slug


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:43:14


Post by: Kanluwen


 cuda1179 wrote:
Voter ID laws hit the poor, which happen to be disproportionately minority. While that is bad, I do think that laws that try to make sure only people that can legally vote are the ones voting.

None of the suggested measures prevent that from happening.

We've been over this time and time and time again:
If someone's on the voter rolls to vote but shouldn't be able to, there is nothing preventing them from voting.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 01:50:28


Post by: Ouze


 cuda1179 wrote:
While that is bad, I do think that laws that try to make sure only people that can legally vote are the ones voting.


The real crime is this incomplete sentence.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 02:37:53


Post by: Insurgency Walker


 Ouze wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.

That being said, I do believe it deserves a hard look, and depended on the logistics of the nature, should be reversed.


Can you cite this? If you're talking about child seperation, I don't believe this is factually accurate. You can't tell me that if the Obama administration had been separating migrant children from their parents at the border, not one single media personality or element of the right wing wouldn't have made hay of it in the last 8 years.

And, in fact, this wasn't a problem for over an entire year of the Trump administration. So I definitely would like to see you show that this routine separation of children from their parents at the border was a common wide practice for 20 years, instead of about 2 months ago.


There were articles about it, but it wasn't an agenda being pushed. I can't find Glenn Becks story though I recall reading about his tours through the detention centers during the previous administration.

Did find a Washington post article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/mexican-kids-held-for-months-as-punishment-for-border-crossing/2015/03/10/311d319a-b2f2-11e4-bf39-5560f3918d4b_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5f083864786a#038;utm_term=.d018971a2c46



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The real reason why both parties fail to address emigration is because we as a nation are hooked on the need for second class citizens. Our political system thrives on second class citizens and the business world exploits second class citizens. Win for both parties. Not to mention all that social security money that goes into the coffers from bogus identities.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 02:56:02


Post by: cuda1179


 Ouze wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Yes? Because there isn't?

In-person voter fraud has no tangible benefits and enormous penalties, along with a very vocal lobby to ensure they are prosecuted. That's why statistically it does not exist. These aren't difficult concepts, just simply math.



When some states have policies that basically mean "don't ask, don't tell, and that they won't proactively investigate, then there really is no penalty. The law becomes a paper tiger. That's not a difficult concept either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
Cruz... submitted a bill:
https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=3892

The deets:
Double the number of federal immigration judges, from roughly 375 to 750.

Authorize new temporary shelters, with accommodations to keep families together.

Mandate that illegal immigrant families must be kept together, absent aggravated criminal conduct or threat of harm to the children.

Provide for expedited processing and review of asylum cases, so that—within 14 days—those who meet the legal standards will be granted asylum, and those who do not will be immediately returned to their home countries.


Solid.


Usually I view Ted Cruz as a weirdo. That being said, it looks like he crapped a jewel on this one.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 02:58:46


Post by: d-usa


So just to be clear, the (actually very well covered) cases of unaccompanied minors were instances of minors being separated from the parents that didn't actually accompany them?

And detaining a teenager that is actually serving as a smuggler and who crosses the border without a parent is the same as separating infants, toddlers, and grade-school age children from their parents?



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 03:01:50


Post by: cuda1179


 d-usa wrote:
So just to be clear, the (actually very well covered) cases of unaccompanied minors were instances of minors being separated from the parents that didn't actually accompany them?

And detaining a teenager that is actually serving as a smuggler and who crosses the border without a parent is the same as separating infants, toddlers, and grade-school age children from their parents?



Apparently, yes..


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 03:19:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 cuda1179 wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Yes? Because there isn't?

In-person voter fraud has no tangible benefits and enormous penalties, along with a very vocal lobby to ensure they are prosecuted. That's why statistically it does not exist. These aren't difficult concepts, just simply math.



When some states have policies that basically mean "don't ask, don't tell, and that they won't proactively investigate, then there really is no penalty. The law becomes a paper tiger. That's not a difficult concept either.
Voter fraud only exists as an issue to help Republicans suppress voters who tend to vote Democrat. There is essentially zero voter fraud, the number amounts to less than a rounding error. Again, it only exists to suppress voters who trend towards Democrat voters. There is no other logical explanation, and to suggest otherwise is to support suppressing voters because you disagree with them. I cannot stress this enough.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 03:50:50


Post by: cuda1179


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Yes? Because there isn't?

In-person voter fraud has no tangible benefits and enormous penalties, along with a very vocal lobby to ensure they are prosecuted. That's why statistically it does not exist. These aren't difficult concepts, just simply math.



When some states have policies that basically mean "don't ask, don't tell, and that they won't proactively investigate, then there really is no penalty. The law becomes a paper tiger. That's not a difficult concept either.
Voter fraud only exists as an issue to help Republicans suppress voters who tend to vote Democrat. There is essentially zero voter fraud, the number amounts to less than a rounding error. Again, it only exists to suppress voters who trend towards Democrat voters. There is no other logical explanation, and to suggest otherwise is to support suppressing voters because you disagree with them. I cannot stress this enough.


In-person voter fraud (As in John Doe shows up to vote and states he's Jim Jones) is fairly rare. Being John Doe, and showing up voting as John Doe might not be that rare. There are some studies that show that not only are illegals voting, but they may have swung some key elections.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379414000973

George Mason University estimated 6.4 percent of noncitizens voted illegally in the 2008 presidential election

Then there was the National Hispanic Survey from a few years back that estimated 13% of Illegal aliens of voting age were registered to vote.


Catching people that vote illegally (whether because of immigration status, renounced citizenship, felon status, etc.) isn't exactly a real tight net.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 03:56:36


Post by: sebster


 djones520 wrote:
I just want to draw a point that it's not directly Trumps policy. It's been the United States policy for the last 20 years. Every administration has done that to date, it's just politically expedient to attack it now.


It is Trump policy. Trump released the memo in April this year, which was then signed by AG Sessions. Before this policy people arriving at US borders without a visa but with no criminal record were not always held awaiting trial, especially not when they had children with them. Trump changed that by going to zero tolerance, so that every single person who arrived without a visa would be held awaiting trial, including people who arrived in order to attempt to claim asylum.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:06:19


Post by: whembly


Enforcing the law of the land...

Imagine that.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:06:40


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Yes? Because there isn't?

In-person voter fraud has no tangible benefits and enormous penalties, along with a very vocal lobby to ensure they are prosecuted. That's why statistically it does not exist. These aren't difficult concepts, just simply math.



When some states have policies that basically mean "don't ask, don't tell, and that they won't proactively investigate, then there really is no penalty. The law becomes a paper tiger. That's not a difficult concept either.
Voter fraud only exists as an issue to help Republicans suppress voters who tend to vote Democrat. There is essentially zero voter fraud, the number amounts to less than a rounding error. Again, it only exists to suppress voters who trend towards Democrat voters. There is no other logical explanation, and to suggest otherwise is to support suppressing voters because you disagree with them. I cannot stress this enough.


In-person voter fraud (As in John Doe shows up to vote and states he's Jim Jones) is fairly rare. Being John Doe, and showing up voting as John Doe might not be that rare. There are some studies that show that not only are illegals voting, but they may have swung some key elections.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379414000973

George Mason University estimated 6.4 percent of noncitizens voted illegally in the 2008 presidential election

Then there was the National Hispanic Survey from a few years back that estimated 13% of Illegal aliens of voting age were registered to vote.


Catching people that vote illegally (whether because of immigration status, renounced citizenship, felon status, etc.) isn't exactly a real tight net.

One source I can't read without a subscription isn't anything I can respond to.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:07:15


Post by: sebster


 ProtoClone wrote:
Going off of Trump's statement that America needs more military presence in space.

Can we talk about the logistics of a space military? What would actually need to be done in order to have what could conceivably be a presence in space beyond satellites.

Seeing as no one has claimed space could this lead to an arms race for territories in our solar system?

I jest but I actually do wonder.


There is already an arms race for space. It's not an active race yet, instead it is all about having the infrastructure in place so that if (when) it does take off the US will be in place to quickly secure its satellites and threaten enemy satellites.

Thing is, before 9/11 the US had an infrastructure to dominate space that no other country could match. But as the US space program is under the air force, then following 9/11 all projects got focused around anti-terror operations. The Chinese and to a much lesser extent the Russians were able to do a lot of catch up - both have specialist space agencies already.

And the US is more vulnerable than anyone to the loss of its space assets, because the US is the highest tech military going around. So having a dedicated branch of the military defending space assets makes of a lot of sense. But of course when Trump announced it he spent the whole time bragging about how he came up with the name so we all just laughed. But the actual idea is good.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:08:58


Post by: cuda1179


I think there is truth to both sides of the story. Yes, the law was all ready on the books. Trump just made them enforce it with not a lot of wiggle room.

Kind of like the unofficial rule that cops don't hand out speeding tickets to anyone going less than 10mph over the limit. For many they don't, but sometimes during the year they do crack down with zero tolerance policy.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:13:54


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Yes? Because there isn't?

In-person voter fraud has no tangible benefits and enormous penalties, along with a very vocal lobby to ensure they are prosecuted. That's why statistically it does not exist. These aren't difficult concepts, just simply math.



When some states have policies that basically mean "don't ask, don't tell, and that they won't proactively investigate, then there really is no penalty. The law becomes a paper tiger. That's not a difficult concept either.
Voter fraud only exists as an issue to help Republicans suppress voters who tend to vote Democrat. There is essentially zero voter fraud, the number amounts to less than a rounding error. Again, it only exists to suppress voters who trend towards Democrat voters. There is no other logical explanation, and to suggest otherwise is to support suppressing voters because you disagree with them. I cannot stress this enough.


In-person voter fraud (As in John Doe shows up to vote and states he's Jim Jones) is fairly rare. Being John Doe, and showing up voting as John Doe might not be that rare. There are some studies that show that not only are illegals voting, but they may have swung some key elections.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379414000973

George Mason University estimated 6.4 percent of noncitizens voted illegally in the 2008 presidential election

Then there was the National Hispanic Survey from a few years back that estimated 13% of Illegal aliens of voting age were registered to vote.


Catching people that vote illegally (whether because of immigration status, renounced citizenship, felon status, etc.) isn't exactly a real tight net.

One source I can't read without a subscription isn't anything I can respond to.
Funny thing, after doing about 5 minutes of research I found a follow up study that states:
...is not only wrong, it is irresponsible social science and should never have been published in the first place. There is no evidence that non-citizens have voted in recent U.S. elections... It is bad research, because it fails to understand basic facts about the data it uses. Indeed, it took me and my colleagues only a few hours to figure out why the authors’ findings were wrong and to produce the evidence needed to prove as much. The authors were essentially basing their claims on two pieces of data associated with the large survey—a question that asks people whether they are citizens and official vote records to which each respondent has been matched to determine whether he or she had voted. Both these pieces of information include some small amounts of measurement error, as is true of all survey questions. What the authors failed to consider is that measurement error was entirely responsible for their results. In fact, once my colleagues and I accounted for that error, we found that there were essentially zero non-citizens who voted in recent elections.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:22:07


Post by: sebster


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Of course, its existed for a good while now, but its catching a lot of attention due to what the administration is doing, honestly before we got Sessions making the bible comment it was just a low rumble.


It really started with the pictures of crying kids in prison cells. That's the reason that past admins accepted catch and release - that policy had a political cost but the only alternative was putting the kids in prison, so every president before now was sensible enough to just accept catch and release. Not Donald.

Donald didn't just change policy, he changed it now, with immediate effect, because Donald made the judgement that he is better off fighting political battles on immigration than on his tax cut or anything else.

I'm not certain Donald is wrong. I mean sure this is getting lots of angry headlines now, but are any of the people who outraged by it not already committed to voting against Trump?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Putting military personnel in space is pointless. They are incredibly vulnerable whilst they're up there, sustaining their presence would cost a fortune, they wouldn't be able to deploy to earth discreetly (their orbit would be known and so the point at which they'd need to begin reentry to arrive at a set location would be calculable) and there is no point in having any non WMD weapon in orbit and WMDs are banned and we seriously don't want nuclear proliferation into earth orbit.


The stuff about putting soldiers in space was just the internet riffing on Trump bragging about it being called space force. The actual program would be about protecting US satellites while blowing up Chinese/whoever satellites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It's also the most morally disgusting action the US has taken this century...


Dude. Iraq. The torture sites. Locking up kids is bad, but this has not been a good twenty years for you guys on the morality front.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
However...….. Immigrant activists have been stating for years that those that are caught crossing the border illegally should be treated the same as any other suspect being processed through the system (as in they should get lawyers). Be careful what you ask for. Now you are being treated like any other detainee, as I can think of no other person being processed for a crime that gets to keep their children with them, especially if they were potentially putting their children at risk.


Wrong. People who've committed non-violent crimes are almost always granted bail, and this is even more true when they have children.

Trump's zero tolerance position is basically mandating imprisonment before a legal hearing, regardless of circumstance. It is not like the rest of the legal process at all.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:54:10


Post by: cuda1179


 sebster wrote:
[
Wrong. People who've committed non-violent crimes are almost always granted bail, and this is even more true when they have children.

Trump's zero tolerance position is basically mandating imprisonment before a legal hearing, regardless of circumstance. It is not like the rest of the legal process at all.


And if they did grant bail, how many of these detainees would happen to have thousands of dollars on them for bail money?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 04:59:50


Post by: sebster


 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, how about that trade war? $50B not enough? How about another $200B on Chinese imports? Does Trump really not understand that this really only hurts the average American?


I think Trump might be genuinely unable to pick up the basic pattern of a trade war.

Trade war according to reality;
Trump applies tariffs.
China retaliates.
Trump applies more tariffs.
China applies more tariffs.
Repeat until depression/world war.

Trade war according to Trump;
Trump applies tariffs.
China retaliates.
Trump applies more tariffs.
China realises they've been masterfully outplayed by Donald and they go to him begging to be released from this trade war, which Donald grants with a wave of his magnanimous, totally normal sized hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
Yes? Because there isn't?


The fundamental difference on this issue is Democrats are convinced Republicans are undermining Democracy because of the laws they pass, whereas Republicans are convinced Democrats are undermining Democracy because of the things Republicans make up in their own heads.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 05:06:22


Post by: cuda1179


 sebster wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, how about that trade war? $50B not enough? How about another $200B on Chinese imports? Does Trump really not understand that this really only hurts the average American?


I think Trump might be genuinely unable to pick up the basic pattern of a trade war.

Trade war according to reality;
Trump applies tariffs.
China retaliates.
Trump applies more tariffs.
China applies more tariffs.
Repeat until depression/world war.

Trade war according to Trump;
Trump applies tariffs.
China retaliates.
Trump applies more tariffs.
China realises they've been masterfully outplayed by Donald and they go to him begging to be released from this trade war, which Donald grants with a wave of his magnanimous, totally normal sized hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
Yes? Because there isn't?


The fundamental difference on this issue is Democrats are convinced Republicans are undermining Democracy because of the laws they pass, whereas Republicans are convinced Democrats are undermining Democracy because of the things Republicans make up in their own heads.


I will say that Republicans do vastly overestimate illegal voting. On the other hand Democrats drastically overreact to many laws Republicans use to combat it.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 05:18:49


Post by: Insurgency Walker


 d-usa wrote:
So just to be clear, the (actually very well covered) cases of unaccompanied minors were instances of minors being separated from the parents that didn't actually accompany them?

And detaining a teenager that is actually serving as a smuggler and who crosses the border without a parent is the same as separating infants, toddlers, and grade-school age children from their parents?



Yes, but those minors aren't only unaccompanied, it's how the system operated. They can't have children staying with adults, boys with girls, violent offenders mixed with non violent. They categorized and housed them separately splitting brother from sister and mother from son. The same way you and your family would be processed if you were all charged with a crime and incarcerated.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 05:20:39


Post by: sebster


 whembly wrote:
Enforcing the law of the land...

Imagine that.


A small fraction of people accused of a crime are held before trial. This hasn't produced some lawless hellscape of unenforced laws.

But here the divine orange one mandates that all people accused of this one particular crime must be held before trial regardless of their record, their personal circumstances or the specifics of the allegation against them, and watch as all you guys fall in to line pretending this is the only possible way the law can managed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I think there is truth to both sides of the story. Yes, the law was all ready on the books. Trump just made them enforce it with not a lot of wiggle room.


Except the 'wiggle room' was the wiggle room granted to all people accused of non-violent crimes. Trump just ruled, quite arbitrarily, that this one crime now must be treated unlike any other crime, with none of the usual allowances granted to the accused.

Now maybe there are circumstances where a crime might have reached such a scale that it really does need to be treated totally differently. Illegal immigration is on a long term decline but lots of voters believe otherwise so I guess they could argue that this crime needs to be treated differently. Whatever.

But if that's what people believe, then just admit it you know? Just say 'Trump changed the policy so now parents are automatically held, and while they're held we put their kids in cages in an old Walmart. We think this will stop illegal immigration.'

Instead we just get lie after lie. Trump says they're doing it but only because Democrats are making them. Kirstjen Nielsen says there's no policy to do it. Jeff Sessions says it is the law of the land, and ignores the Trump memo that Sessions himself signed to change how this is now treated differently. Meanwhile Stephen Miller is saying it was his policy that he got Trump to agree to.

Stephen Miller is the most honest person on this issue. Stephen Miller. I mean come on kids in cages is bad, but when Stephen Miller is the guy to listen to for the truth?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
And if they did grant bail, how many of these detainees would happen to have thousands of dollars on them for bail money?


Bail values are set according to the financial circumstance of the accused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I will say that Republicans do vastly overestimate illegal voting. On the other hand Democrats drastically overreact to many laws Republicans use to combat it.


I think that's fair. While the Republican strategies have been plainly cynical and motivated by nothing but protecting their own power, it's also true that they haven't actually worked that well. Efforts that have gone the other way, like postal voting, have expanded participation far more than any Republican voter ID law has reduced it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Yes, but those minors aren't only unaccompanied, it's how the system operated. They can't have children staying with adults, boys with girls, violent offenders mixed with non violent. They categorized and housed them separately splitting brother from sister and mother from son. The same way you and your family would be processed if you were all charged with a crime and incarcerated.


If Dad committed murder to try and cover up Mom's arson spree, then yeah. But if Mum and Dad were caught shoplifting, then you'd all be bailed and back home before you had to worry about having your shoes stolen while you slept.

What's changed is that before now illegal entry was treated like non-violent crime, largely on account of it being a non-violent. Trump's changed that, and ordered that anyone accused of it must be held, regardless of personal circumstance like having dependents.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 05:57:26


Post by: tneva82


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.

But that's Trump being Trump, as for now he has to get rid off the treaty and then there are still huge technological and financial obstacles to anything effective.


Trump being Trump he'll just say America is out of it.

And now he's adding yet more tariffs to China and says if China responds in kind he'll add more. Lol. "We can do this but you can't respond in kind". Guess there's soon 500% tariff on each other products and rising.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.


Putting military personnel in space is pointless. They are incredibly vulnerable whilst they're up there, sustaining their presence would cost a fortune, they wouldn't be able to deploy to earth discreetly (their orbit would be known and so the point at which they'd need to begin reentry to arrive at a set location would be calculable) and there is no point in having any non WMD weapon in orbit and WMDs are banned and we seriously don't want nuclear proliferation into earth orbit.

Basically, Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand the first thing about space exploration/travel. He probably just watched Starship Troopers or something before his speech.


We are talking about guy who claimed nukes should already have been used...You SURE he doesn't want nuclear proliferation? He's talking in favour of more countries having nukes. The guy is a warhawk.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 06:30:16


Post by: Grey Templar


 Ustrello wrote:
What voter ID laws are unconstitutional? I never would of guessed

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/392893-judge-rules-against-kobach-in-voter-registration-case

A federal judge on Monday permanently struck down Kansas's proof-of-citizenship voter registration law, handing down a blistering ruling against Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, one of the country's most vocal advocates of voter-ID laws.

In the 118-page ruling, U.S. District Judge Julie Robinson wrote that the state’s requirement that voters show proof of citizenship during registration violated both the Constitution and the National Voter Registration Act.

Robinson struck down the stringent law, and ordered Kobach to take six additional hours of continuing legal education that “pertain to federal or Kansas civil rules of procedure or evidence.”

Robinson wrote that the law, championed by Kobach, prevented “tens of thousands of eligible citizens” from registering to vote before she issued a preliminary injunction, and that “the process of completing the registration process was burdensome for them.”
According to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Kobach’s law blocked some 35,000 Kansans from being able to register to vote.

In an earlier court order, Robinson had held Kobach in contempt for skirting court orders related to the law and failing to send postcards confirming registration for thousands of voters.


Well if its Unconstitutional to be forced to prove you have the right to vote, then it should also be Unconstitutional to need to prove you are allowed to practice any other right.

So logically nobody should have to show any ID to, say, purchase a firearm for example.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 07:04:00


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 sebster wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It's also the most morally disgusting action the US has taken this century...


Dude. Iraq. The torture sites. Locking up kids is bad, but this has not been a good twenty years for you guys on the morality front.
I responded to a similar post earlier in more detail but in summary; I was aware of the torture sites when I said that. I view this as worse.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 07:20:36


Post by: sebster


tneva82 wrote:
We are talking about guy who claimed nukes should already have been used...You SURE he doesn't want nuclear proliferation? He's talking in favour of more countries having nukes. The guy is a warhawk.


Yeah, Trump at one point was talking about lots of other countries getting their own nukes, but I don't think that really makes him a warhawk. A warhawk has an ideology or a POV that leads to a pattern of behaviour that is predominantly aggressive foreign policy.

Trump just says stuff, sometimes he's lying and sometimes it's something he actually believes, but either way he'll probably say the exact opposite at some point later on, and probably forget he ever made either comment.

Trump isn't a hawk or a dove. He's a drunk in a bar at 2am.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Well if its Unconstitutional to be forced to prove you have the right to vote, then it should also be Unconstitutional to need to prove you are allowed to practice any other right.

So logically nobody should have to show any ID to, say, purchase a firearm for example.


1) In the last thread you claimed that California had laws in place to remove people form the roll if they missed the last few elections. I pointed out this was completely false. It wasn't just a bit wrong, it was the exact opposite of the rules in CA, where a person will not be removed from the role unless they die, ask to be removed, or the post office informs CA the person has moved (and even then there's an extensive process to confirm). You didn't address that you made that plainly false claim. Would you like to address that now? Maybe talk about why you posted something that wasn't even close to accurate, and what you're going to do to try and post more accurate statements in future?

2) It's completely false to claim all rights are treated in exactly the same way all the time. It's not even a thing that remotely makes sense. Because each right is different, and so what must be done to preserve it is totally different. I mean, by your logic if ID must be shown before voting, then ID can be demanded before asserting your right to privacy. It's gibberish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I responded to a similar post earlier in more detail but in summary; I was aware of the torture sites when I said that. I view this as worse.


Yeah, I thought by adding Iraq my post was sufficiently different. Anyhow, maybe my post wasn't that different, thinking about it now. My bad.

Anyhow, I don't agree it's worse, but I guess it doesn't really matter which recent acts by GW Bush or Trump were objectively greater breaches of human rights. Jesus, what a conversation.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 07:46:05


Post by: Whirlwind


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Whirlwind wrote:


What advantage could be gained from a Space Force right now? Orbit seems both very well covered, and a remarkably dangerous place to put troops.


It's also relatively pointless. Give a soldier any type of ballistic weapon (say an M16) and they might be able to shoot one person before they are spinning uncontrollably or flying off at a fair rate of knots in the opposite direction because of physical conservation laws.


Do recoilless rifles not work in space?


All that recoilless rifles do is dispate the force in a manner that ensures you can keep the rifle pointed at the same target on the earth. You still can't get round the physical laws that is for every action there is an equal and opposite action. That still applies whether you have a recoilless rifle or not.

If for example a rifle fires a bullet with a force of 10 Newtons 'forwards' then the same force applies to you but 'backwards'. On the earth that force transfers through you onto the earth through friction and because of the high mass of the earth is effectively negligible. In space there is no friction or mass to compensate that reaction hence in this example a 100kg person will end up accelerating themselves backwards away from the direction of the bullet by about 0.1ms-2. Now imagine you point the gun in a slightly different direction per shot. That means that you move backwards at a slightly different angle each time. At 100s of bullets per second then you have just spun yourself up completely uncontrollably and will now be moving away from your target at approx 10metres per second (assuming you've not spun yourself so wildly that you are still pointing roughly in the same direction). You will then continue onto that trajectory until you hit something to transfer that energy to something else (in practice assuming low earth orbit then the gravity of the moon/sun/earth will also have an effect and change your trajectory but we will ingore this for the moment as these are fixed effects).

You can mitigate this somewhat ny firing from a more massive object. Say you were standing on an object of a one tonne as the acceleration you recieve will be less but that is countered by the fact that to stop that object spinning you will need the same force and eventually you will spin it up. It just takes more shots. (We also have to take into account that unless you are centrally located in that mass then each shot will impart angular momentum into the object and start it spinning.

Guns in space are really impractical except when used on a solid body - so the moon would be OK (which is why a lot of Sci-fi use lasers as the forces being applied then are a lot less, although not zero)



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 08:18:33


Post by: oldravenman3025


 AdeptSister wrote:
I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.




Nobody has yet to convince me that being required to show a driver's license, military ID, or State identification card is an infringment on anybody's rights. Maybe on the voting rights of people now residing in my local graveyard perhaps. But not among living, citizens that haven't lost the right due to disqualifying categories (such as convicted felons).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 AdeptSister wrote:
I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.


Make it hard for one demographic to vote, but certain posters here would tell you otherwise


On the other hand, certain posters here will tell you that there isn't a concerted effort to get people!e to vote that shouldn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
The thing is, that the longer we go the easier it will be for people that are legal citizens to prove their legality. The time might not be now, but at some point in the future this really won't be that burdensome


And then steal that legality and take out loans in their name. The more you depend on a piece of plastic, the easier it is to steal soemone's identity.


Actually, isn't it technically harder to steal someone's identity now than it was 40 years ago?


I think it has been pretty much proven that voter id laws specifically target minorities and every time that is brought up the same half dozen or so posters bring up the same hand waving points like you just did




Which is utter nonsense. That's why we keep saying it. On the other hand, parroting the talking points of the anti-ID crowd and media as "facts" doesn't automatically make it correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Going off of Trump's statement that America needs more military presence in space.

Can we talk about the logistics of a space military? What would actually need to be done in order to have what could conceivably be a presence in space beyond satellites.

Seeing as no one has claimed space could this lead to an arms race for territories in our solar system?

I jest but I actually do wonder.




We already have the USAF Space Command. Which is good enough, considering our current mission, operational needs, and technology level. There is no need for space fighters and space marines yet. The President has watched Starship Troopers, Votoms, and Macross one time too many.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 08:29:27


Post by: Peregrine


 Whirlwind wrote:
Bad physics.


Gah. Bad physics, using different units interchangeably, etc. Let's do this correctly:

A 5.56mm bullet is about 4g and 850m/s. That's 3.4 kg*m/s. By conservation of momentum a 100kg person would be propelled backwards at 0.034m/s. For comparison, average walking speed is about ~1.5m/s, or about 44 times faster. So yes, firing a rifle in space will add non-trivial velocity, but it's hardly going to throw wildly off into space if you fire a burst or two. Fire your maneuvering thrusters to counter that (low) velocity, something that can probably be done automatically by a computer and acceleration sensors, and you'll easily remove the problem.

A recoilless rifle is called that because it eliminates recoil by using a counter mass and/or propellant gas that is thrown out the back of the weapon to balance the projectile. The net momentum between the two is close to zero so the shooter feels nearly zero recoil force, assuming everything is working properly. Note that "rifle" does not mean something like an M16, recoilless rifles are heavy anti-tank weapons much more comparable to an RPG. Using a properly designed recoilless rifle in space would work just fine as long as you don't mind the backblast issue.

The whole space force thing is stupid. Drones and anti-satellite missiles already have the whole thing covered, and are an extreme niche role at best. The most useful thing that will come out of any of this is the space marine memes.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 08:35:48


Post by: Wolfblade


 oldravenman3025 wrote:
 AdeptSister wrote:
I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.




Nobody has yet to convince me that being required to show a driver's license, military ID, or State identification card is an infringment on anybody's rights. Maybe on the voting rights of people now residing in my local graveyard perhaps. But not among living, citizens that haven't lost the right due to disqualifying categories (such as convicted felons).


IIRC it's a violation of the 14th amendment's Equal Protection Clause where even minor burdens have to be "sufficiently weighty to justify the limitation."

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Which is utter nonsense. That's why we keep saying it. On the other hand, parroting the talking points of the anti-ID crowd and media as "facts" doesn't automatically make it correct.


Then I'm sure you'll be happy to provide proof right? I suppose it's more accurate to say "it overburdens the poor" rather than "minorities" (even though minorities make up more of the poor), along with the fact most states in the country require an address to get ID, which obviously immediately excludes the homeless from voting.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 08:36:50


Post by: Peregrine


 oldravenman3025 wrote:
Nobody has yet to convince me that being required to show a driver's license, military ID, or State identification card is an infringment on anybody's rights. Maybe on the voting rights of people now residing in my local graveyard perhaps. But not among living, citizens that haven't lost the right due to disqualifying categories (such as convicted felons).


It's an infringement because of the reasons for those requirements. The only form of voting fraud that they can even in theory prevent* has not been demonstrated to occur at any meaningful level. IIRC we're talking about single digit cases proved to have happened, in all of recent history, and there is certainly no evidence that it happens often enough to make any difference in the outcome of elections. So, if the requirements have no practical purpose we have to look at the other potential motivations for imposing them. And we see two very illegitimate ones: preventing the "wrong" people from voting by making it more difficult to vote, and making campaign speeches about how much election fraud you're preventing. The courts don't look kindly upon restrictions that have no legitimate purpose, so this one gets thrown out.

*An illegal voter voting under the name of someone who is registered to vote in that precinct. That is a high-risk thing to do, and likely leads to getting arrested if the legitimate person voted previously. Dead people voting is an entirely separate problem: voter registration lists not being accurate. But ID requirements don't prevent people from getting on the list when they shouldn't be.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 08:51:28


Post by: Whirlwind


 Peregrine wrote:


Gah. Bad physics, using different units interchangeably, etc. Let's do this correctly:

A 5.56mm bullet is about 4g and 850m/s. That's 3.4 kg*m/s. By conservation of momentum a 100kg person would be propelled backwards at 0.034m/s. For comparison, average walking speed is about ~1.5m/s, or about 44 times faster. So yes, firing a rifle in space will add non-trivial velocity, but it's hardly going to throw wildly off into space if you fire a burst or two. Fire your maneuvering thrusters to counter that (low) velocity, something that can probably be done automatically by a computer and acceleration sensors, and you'll easily remove the problem.


Lol - Nope that's incorrect. Force is mass * acceleration not as your units, mass * velocity. A unit of Force is a Newton which is the same as kgms-2, hence there is no confusion with units. It is the mass of the body and acceleration that is important *not* the speed of the resulting projectile. Conservation of momentum is a similar but different law. You've also considered only one bullet. If we are assuming a traditional rifle that fires 10's or 100's of projectiles per second then you have to multiply the duration of the acceleration appropriately.

A recoilless rifle is called that because it eliminates recoil by using a counter mass and/or propellant gas that is thrown out the back of the weapon to balance the projectile. The net momentum between the two is close to zero so the shooter feels nearly zero recoil force, assuming everything is working properly. Note that "rifle" does not mean something like an M16, recoilless rifles are heavy anti-tank weapons much more comparable to an RPG. Using a properly designed recoilless rifle in space would work just fine as long as you don't mind the backblast issue.


I won't say I know much about weapons, but I was considering recoiless rifles in terms of M16 type weapons with integrated systems to control the internal recoil. If we are talking about rockets then yes these are different. The propellant is forced out of the rocket and that imparts an opposite force onto the rocket itself. As such little force is applied to the holding mechanism, but is unlikely to be zero.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 09:04:57


Post by: Peregrine


 Whirlwind wrote:
Lol - Nope that's incorrect. Force is mass * acceleration not as your units, mass * velocity. A unit of Force is a Newton which is the same as kgms-2, hence there is no confusion with units. It is the mass of the body and acceleration that is important *not* the speed of the resulting projectile. Conservation of momentum is a similar but different law. You've also considered only one bullet. If we are assuming a traditional rifle that fires 10's or 100's of projectiles per second then you have to multiply the duration of the acceleration appropriately.


...

Conservation of momentum is the simplest way to get an answer. If you want to calculate it with forces then you need the duration of the force (which, by the way, varies with time and is not constant), which you don't have. A 10N force may be a huge problem or completely irrelevant depending on its duration. Apply it for 0.000000000000000001 seconds and you won't even notice. Apply it for several hours in space and you'll get some pretty impressive speed.

And no, a rifle is not firing "10's or 100's of projectiles per second". An M16 at maximum rate of fire is firing about 15 shots per second, way below your claim. And you're almost never going to use that maximum rate of fire because it's just wasting ammunition.

I won't say I know much about weapons, but I was considering recoiless rifles in terms of M16 type weapons with integrated systems to control the internal recoil. If we are talking about rockets then yes these are different. The propellant is forced out of the rocket and that imparts an opposite force onto the rocket itself. As such little force is applied to the holding mechanism, but is unlikely to be zero.


Recoil compensation on an M16 is not the same as a recoiless rifle, not at all. If you don't know much about weapons perhaps you shouldn't be posting about them as if you do?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 09:39:51


Post by: Whirlwind


 Peregrine wrote:


Conservation of momentum is the simplest way to get an answer. If you want to calculate it with forces then you need the duration of the force (which, by the way, varies with time and is not constant), which you don't have. A 10N force may be a huge problem or completely irrelevant depending on its duration. Apply it for 0.000000000000000001 seconds and you won't even notice. Apply it for several hours in space and you'll get some pretty impressive speed.


Sigh. The use of bullets and recoil in basic conservation of momentum physics is common but actually flawed. Conservation of momentum only applies where no external force is applied to the system, or:-

For a collision occurring between object 1 and object 2 in an isolated system, the total momentum of the two objects before the collision is equal to the total momentum of the two objects after the collision. That is, the momentum lost by object 1 is equal to the momentum gained by object 2.

Hence if you were travelling in a rocket at a constant speed and then dropped a ball from that rocket then conservation of momentum is fine. You know the momentum of the system and you can determine the relative velocities with a known mass. It doesn't work when there is an external force applied. This is where the bullet scenario fails. Bullets work by igniting a propellant. This applies a force to both the firer and the bullet. Hence conservation of momentum will get you the incorrect answer until you have taken into account this force applied. It's the force applied that makes the bullet fly forwards and you move backwards. Each time you fire a bullet it imparts the same force on to the firer and the bullet. Any slight misalignment from the centre of mass will start the firing body to start to spin as well as move backwards.

A 10N force may be a huge problem or completely irrelevant depending on its duration. Apply it for 0.000000000000000001 seconds and you won't even notice. Apply it for several hours in space and you'll get some pretty impressive speed.


You are also missing that mass is also a large factor. An almost massless neutrino with a 10N force applied to 10^-18 seconds stated can get it to impressive speeds whereas apply that to a star and it will be a tiny change in speed even over year timescales. The mass of the object you are applying it to is just as relevant as the time applied.

And no, a rifle is not firing "10's or 100's of projectiles per second". An M16 at maximum rate of fire is firing about 15 shots per second, way below your claim.


In mathematical language 15 is 10's of projectiles in the same ways as saying on the order of 10.

Recoil compensation on an M16 is not the same as a recoiless rifle, not at all. If you don't know much about weapons perhaps you shouldn't be posting about them as if you do?
But in context of the older discussion where bullets were being referred to it makes sense. This is just a pedantic argument on nomenclature.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 10:20:45


Post by: BaronIveagh


 whembly wrote:
Enforcing the law of the land...

Imagine that.



The issue isn't so much this as it is the fine print. The part where it's more or less assumed that every asylum seeker is doing so fraudulently, and some of the immigration judges are telling people without lawyers that if they want to see their kids again, plead guilty.

This whole debacle is an abomination of justice.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 10:57:30


Post by: Disciple of Fate


tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 ProtoClone wrote:
Well, I should clarify, he said America needs a "space force" and the military needs to get on to making that branch of the military.

But that's Trump being Trump, as for now he has to get rid off the treaty and then there are still huge technological and financial obstacles to anything effective.


Trump being Trump he'll just say America is out of it.

And now he's adding yet more tariffs to China and says if China responds in kind he'll add more. Lol. "We can do this but you can't respond in kind". Guess there's soon 500% tariff on each other products and rising.

Well he would have to get Congress on board to get out, but they probably just go with it.

The trade war happens when you have a man so blinded by his own sense of being right that everything done in response to him is an attack. Its pretty incredible.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 11:22:27


Post by: Dreadwinter


 whembly wrote:
Enforcing the law of the land...

Imagine that.



Are you implying they were not being enforced before or they were not encorced to your liking? Was it the wrong team enforcing them?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 12:26:00


Post by: Frazzled


 AdeptSister wrote:
I do think it is funny/sad that there has been a concentrated movement to make it harder to vote in the US.


Harder for those who are not citizens, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
What voter ID laws are unconstitutional? I never would of guessed

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/392893-judge-rules-against-kobach-in-voter-registration-case

A federal judge on Monday permanently struck down Kansas's proof-of-citizenship voter registration law, handing down a blistering ruling against Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, one of the country's most vocal advocates of voter-ID laws.

In the 118-page ruling, U.S. District Judge Julie Robinson wrote that the state’s requirement that voters show proof of citizenship during registration violated both the Constitution and the National Voter Registration Act.

Robinson struck down the stringent law, and ordered Kobach to take six additional hours of continuing legal education that “pertain to federal or Kansas civil rules of procedure or evidence.”

Robinson wrote that the law, championed by Kobach, prevented “tens of thousands of eligible citizens” from registering to vote before she issued a preliminary injunction, and that “the process of completing the registration process was burdensome for them.”
According to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Kobach’s law blocked some 35,000 Kansans from being able to register to vote.

In an earlier court order, Robinson had held Kobach in contempt for skirting court orders related to the law and failing to send postcards confirming registration for thousands of voters.


Well if its Unconstitutional to be forced to prove you have the right to vote, then it should also be Unconstitutional to need to prove you are allowed to practice any other right.

So logically nobody should have to show any ID to, say, purchase a firearm for example.


No that's wrong because...reasons...


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 12:36:10


Post by: Tannhauser42


The issue with voter ID laws is that those who fight so hard for them aren't willing to put even half that same effort into getting those IDs to the people who need them.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 13:15:13


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Frazzled wrote:

Harder for those who are not citizens, yes.


As someone who works for Social Security, let me tell you: the same issues that we run into getting everyone an SS card? They mean that this WILL make it harder for actual citizens to vote too. And also, those same issues? They also mean that it would actually make it easier for non-citizens to vote.

Just understand folks, I'm opposed to the idea of a national ID card because I've seen the gak we run into at SSA, where we spend millions on investigations, and bust a lot of bad guys, true, but before it gets to that point, a lot of people lose everything, even if we are absolutely on the ball. The fraud records alone are a pile of filing cabinets that cover an area the size of an Olympic swimming pool and are stacked 20 feet high. As my boss said on the first day: 'I want you to think of how many people's lives being ruined this pile represents.'

I hesitate to imagine what can be done with a 'citizenship card'.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 13:59:25


Post by: Vaktathi


On the whole voter fraud & ID requirement thing...

One really need not look beyond the qualities of the people in power involved in pushing such laws to see the issues with them.

Judge strikes down Kansas voter ID law, orders Kobach take legal classes




A federal judge on Monday permanently struck down Kansas's proof-of-citizenship voter registration law, handing down a blistering ruling against Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, one of the country's most vocal advocates of voter-ID laws.

In the 118-page ruling, U.S. District Judge Julie Robinson wrote that the state’s requirement that voters show proof of citizenship during registration violated both the Constitution and the National Voter Registration Act.

Robinson struck down the stringent law, and ordered Kobach to take six additional hours of continuing legal education that “pertain to federal or Kansas civil rules of procedure or evidence.”


Yes, this is the guy Donald Trump picked to run his voter fraud commission.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 14:45:25


Post by: Easy E


As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:13:18


Post by: Frazzled


 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The issue with voter ID laws is that those who fight so hard for them aren't willing to put even half that same effort into getting those IDs to the people who need them.


Please cite evidence to support the statement.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:16:02


Post by: d-usa


One of my former inmates was in federal prison for hiring undocumented workers and paying them under the table, resulting in just over half a million in unpaid payroll taxes (taxes, that’s how the feds always get you). He and his wife managed this business together and were equally guilty and both sentenced to a couple years in prison. They had children as well. He was allowed to basically serve pre-prison probation to stay at home with the kids, and then was allowed to self surrender after his wife served her sentence and was released and now able to take care of the kids.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:16:24


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Harder for those who are not citizens, yes.


As someone who works for Social Security, let me tell you: the same issues that we run into getting everyone an SS card? They mean that this WILL make it harder for actual citizens to vote too. And also, those same issues? They also mean that it would actually make it easier for non-citizens to vote.

Just understand folks, I'm opposed to the idea of a national ID card because I've seen the gak we run into at SSA, where we spend millions on investigations, and bust a lot of bad guys, true, but before it gets to that point, a lot of people lose everything, even if we are absolutely on the ball. The fraud records alone are a pile of filing cabinets that cover an area the size of an Olympic swimming pool and are stacked 20 feet high. As my boss said on the first day: 'I want you to think of how many people's lives being ruined this pile represents.'

I hesitate to imagine what can be done with a 'citizenship card'.


All citizens have a Social Security Card.
You cannot write a check, make a major payment, or even enter many government offices without ID.
I am fully behind making it easy to get said ID. Any post office, DMV, police station, or grocery store/department store which meets minimal criteria should be able to issue one, free of charge to the citizen.

If I have to have government approved ID to avail myself of my Second Amendment rights, then voters should have to have ID to vote to elect people who could change those rights.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:16:30


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Frazzled wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The issue with voter ID laws is that those who fight so hard for them aren't willing to put even half that same effort into getting those IDs to the people who need them.


Please cite evidence to support the statement.


How many laws requiring ID to vote have also included provisions for the free distribution of voter IDs to everyone on the electoral roll?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:19:32


Post by: Ustrello


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The issue with voter ID laws is that those who fight so hard for them aren't willing to put even half that same effort into getting those IDs to the people who need them.


Please cite evidence to support the statement.


How many laws requiring ID to vote have also included provisions for the free distribution of voter IDs to everyone on the electoral roll?


As if frazz would ever listen to this argument since I've seen it happen at least half a dozen times and he always wheels out the same tired and blatantly false responses every time


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:20:31


Post by: Frazzled


 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are not getting the whole story. (edited by Frazzled)


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:21:48


Post by: Ustrello


 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.


Or just ignore the dozens of similar stories that follow this same path that have occurred since trump became president


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:24:48


Post by: Grey Templar


 Frazzled wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Harder for those who are not citizens, yes.


As someone who works for Social Security, let me tell you: the same issues that we run into getting everyone an SS card? They mean that this WILL make it harder for actual citizens to vote too. And also, those same issues? They also mean that it would actually make it easier for non-citizens to vote.

Just understand folks, I'm opposed to the idea of a national ID card because I've seen the gak we run into at SSA, where we spend millions on investigations, and bust a lot of bad guys, true, but before it gets to that point, a lot of people lose everything, even if we are absolutely on the ball. The fraud records alone are a pile of filing cabinets that cover an area the size of an Olympic swimming pool and are stacked 20 feet high. As my boss said on the first day: 'I want you to think of how many people's lives being ruined this pile represents.'

I hesitate to imagine what can be done with a 'citizenship card'.


All citizens have a Social Security Card.
You cannot write a check, make a major payment, or even enter many government offices without ID.
I am fully behind making it easy to get said ID. Any post office, DMV, police station, or grocery store/department store which meets minimal criteria should be able to issue one, free of charge to the citizen.

If I have to have government approved ID to avail myself of my Second Amendment rights, then voters should have to have ID to vote to elect people who could change those rights.


Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:31:28


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Grey Templar wrote:


Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.


Okay, you now need ID to practice free speech. You need ID to be safe from cruel and unusual punishments. You need ID to prevent an unreasonable search and seizure. You need ID to get a fair trial. You need ID to not have excessive bail forced upon you. And so on.

The idea that all rights need equal rules is ridiculous.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:37:30


Post by: Vaktathi


On a note about SS cards, SS numbers were not originally intended to have any sort of ID or verification purposes beyond trackimg of benefits, they were not developed to be an ID but ended up being one out of convenience, and at this point have been so badly compromised that their value as such is extremely suspect, no serious security professional is going to consider an SSN or card to be worth squat for such purposes, and if you're a working age US adult with any credit history, your SSN is already compromised and available for sale.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:39:16


Post by: Spinner


 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.


Why?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:45:06


Post by: Grey Templar


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:


Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.


Okay, you now need ID to practice free speech. You need ID to be safe from cruel and unusual punishments. You need ID to prevent an unreasonable search and seizure. You need ID to get a fair trial. You need ID to not have excessive bail forced upon you. And so on.

The idea that all rights need equal rules is ridiculous.


It’s not rediculous at all. If all rights don’t have equal rules then they arent rights, they become privileges at that point. Double standards are bad.

You think it’s silly to require proof to have your right to free speech. So you must also have to think it is silly to have ID requirements for any other right, otherwise you are applying a double standard. Because you can’t have tiers of rights. A right is a right.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:51:00


Post by: Ustrello


 Grey Templar wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:


Or have no ID requirement in the first place.

The point is that all rights should be treated to the same burden of proof requirements. Because all rights are equal in terms of importance, they should also legally speaking be treated the same.

What burden of requirement you prefer is a matter of debate.


Okay, you now need ID to practice free speech. You need ID to be safe from cruel and unusual punishments. You need ID to prevent an unreasonable search and seizure. You need ID to get a fair trial. You need ID to not have excessive bail forced upon you. And so on.

The idea that all rights need equal rules is ridiculous.


It’s not rediculous at all. If all rights don’t have equal rules then they arent rights, they become privileges at that point. Double standards are bad.

You think it’s silly to require proof to have your right to free speech. So you must also have to think it is silly to have ID requirements for any other right, otherwise you are applying a double standard. Because you can’t have tiers of rights. A right is a right.


So we need to have IDs for each one of the rights granted to us? Better start revving up those id searches on preachers and churches then


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:52:07


Post by: Frazzled


 Spinner wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.


Why?


It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.
EDIT. On re-read I am being harsh, I don't doubt our fellow Dakkaite, but the employee. Let me re-edit that.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 15:52:17


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Grey Templar wrote:

You think it’s silly to require proof to have your right to free speech. So you must also have to think it is silly to have ID requirements for any other right, otherwise you are applying a double standard. Because you can’t have tiers of rights. A right is a right.


You can certainly have tiers of rights. Any time rights interact, they are organised into tiers. You have the right of free speech, but people also have the right to not be slandered which trumps your right to free speech.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:02:49


Post by: Spinner


 Frazzled wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.


Why?


It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.


What about the story seems unbelievable to you? There was a 60 Minutes report about a restaurant owner being deported after 20 years in the country. ICE detained and tried to deport a Dreamer with a young family, claiming he was part of a gang because he had a tattoo with the name of his birthplace. They're putting children in camps and refusing to allow more than brief glimpses of what's happening inside.

The story seems entirely in keeping with this administration's attitude toward immigration, legal and otherwise. Doesn't matter whether it's coming from E or from the woman who worked for him.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:06:47


Post by: Ustrello


 Spinner wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Spinner wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.


Why?


It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.


What about the story seems unbelievable to you? There was a 60 Minutes report about a restaurant owner being deported after 20 years in the country. ICE detained and tried to deport a Dreamer with a young family, claiming he was part of a gang because he had a tattoo with the name of his birthplace. They're putting children in camps and refusing to allow more than brief glimpses of what's happening inside.

The story seems entirely in keeping with this administration's attitude toward immigration, legal and otherwise. Doesn't matter whether it's coming from E or from the woman who worked for him.


It's because it doesn't fit the narrative that the GOP and Fox news have been pushing about illegal immigrants for the better part of a decade


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:09:08


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Frazzled wrote:

It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.
EDIT. On re-read I am being harsh, I don't doubt our fellow Dakkaite, but the employee. Let me re-edit that.


Frazz, it's more common then you seem to think. A doctor in Michigan was hustled off after living here as a legal refugee alien for IIRC 50 years, because he had done something stupid as a kid.

And you still have not addressed ICE taking legal immigrants kids off them too. It's just not an illegal alien thing here anymore.

Or are you waiting for Trump to put YOUR kids in a camp so to try and force Congress to bend a knee to the new King of America.

In your own state of Texas at least one judge was caught by the press using children to get people to plead guilty to crimes. How'd you like it if they locked up your son, and told you to plead guilty or he would just disappear?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:12:20


Post by: d-usa


I’m trying to square the fact that the same person arguing for the total and absolute equality of all rights to require papers to exist at all is also the same person arguing that giving innocent people the death penalty is acceptable as long as enough guilty people also die and it serves as a deterrent.

So there is no point trying to bring any kind of logical argument to an argument where logic never existed to begin with.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:14:19


Post by: Vaktathi


Fundamentally, the voter ID thing is a solution to a problem that does not exist. There is no evidence that widespread voter fraud exists. There is no evidence that voter fraud has shifted any election.

The major push for voter ID laws comes from a slice of the political spectrum that is fighting against changing demographics and that has lost the popular vote but won the EC both time it has gained the presidency in the last generation. There is little mystery behind the push for such laws, those in power pushing them arent exactly subtle, again, witness Kobach's journey.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:22:21


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

It doesn't pas the smell test. Born in East LA was a movie, not reality. Either she wasn't telling the truth. or something else has occurred.
EDIT. On re-read I am being harsh, I don't doubt our fellow Dakkaite, but the employee. Let me re-edit that.


Frazz, it's more common then you seem to think. A doctor in Michigan was hustled off after living here as a legal refugee alien for IIRC 50 years, because he had done something stupid as a kid.

And you still have not addressed ICE taking legal immigrants kids off them too. It's just not an illegal alien thing here anymore.

Or are you waiting for Trump to put YOUR kids in a camp so to try and force Congress to bend a knee to the new King of America.

In your own state of Texas at least one judge was caught by the press using children to get people to plead guilty to crimes. How'd you like it if they locked up your son, and told you to plead guilty or he would just disappear?


I think you forgot my earlier post on this. I will restate:
To the topic.
Saw the Ministry of Propaganda's interview with Our Leader. While I agree with the positions, they literally have nothing to do with the immigration system now splitting kids.

Look I have a stickie note. That should take care of an immigration bill. What's the damn deal?
1. If you are here now, you are added to the list of people on the citizen track.

2. Budget for border control X500%.

3. H1Bs revamped for real need.

I'm out. (Drops Mike)

For an easy translation:
*His arguments on needing control on illegal immigration I generally agree with.
*BUT that has nothing to do with separating the children. Thats not conscionable to me. Further, I its so unconscionable I support impeachment on this ALONE.
*The issue of immigration reform. Its simple. See above. I fixed it. (picks up mike and drop kicks it into the audience). I need to send my bill to the government.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
I’m trying to square the fact that the same person arguing for the total and absolute equality of all rights to require papers to exist at all is also the same person arguing that giving innocent people the death penalty is acceptable as long as enough guilty people also die and it serves as a deterrent.

So there is no point trying to bring any kind of logical argument to an argument where logic never existed to begin with.


Who the feth are you talking about?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:32:22


Post by: Ouze


He's referring to a horrible argument GT made, not referring to you.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:47:14


Post by: Easy E


 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are not getting the whole story. (edited by Frazzled)


I know right! Cool story Bro!

The great thing is.... I don't care if you believe it or not. I know what I am going to do to try and stop this story from being repeated to anyone in my community and Nation.

Edit: I also have no doubt, that my employee and friend does not necessarily know or understand all the intricacies of her case, since she is not an immigration lawyer. Plus, I did not pesonally accompany her on every step of the process, so there is some bit of telephone involved. That being said, that is the understanding I have of the current situation. Can anyone point me to some compelling reason why I should not believe it?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 16:58:02


Post by: reds8n


https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1009105863473319936


BREAKING: U.S. plans to announce withdrawal from U.N. Human Rights Council on Tuesday - source




how does it go again..


The essential ingredient of politics is timing




US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 17:01:46


Post by: Ouze


I'm not sure how to feel about that.

On the one hand, leaving the council because they rightfully called the US out for a horrible policy seems gakky.

On the other hand, how much value did a human rights council that includes China, Saudia Arabia, and Venezuela really have?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 17:05:31


Post by: Frazzled


 Ouze wrote:
He's referring to a horrible argument GT made, not referring to you.


Cool. My horrible arguments are indeed horrible, but different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are not getting the whole story. (edited by Frazzled)


I know right! Cool story Bro!

The great thing is.... I don't care if you believe it or not. I know what I am going to do to try and stop this story from being repeated to anyone in my community and Nation.

Edit: I also have no doubt, that my employee and friend does not necessarily know or understand all the intricacies of her case, since she is not an immigration lawyer. Plus, I did not pesonally accompany her on every step of the process, so there is some bit of telephone involved. That being said, that is the understanding I have of the current situation. Can anyone point me to some compelling reason why I should not believe it?


Because its illegal.

Having said that, my defense is only based on that. As a Bill of Rights advocate, my distrust of the government by its nature demands that I note worse things have happened, so it is possible, and there's nothing about the current administration that I defend without proof.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 17:26:02


Post by: Steelmage99


 Ouze wrote:
I'm not sure how to feel about that.

On the one hand, leaving the council because they rightfully called the US out for a horrible policy seems gakky.

On the other hand, how much value did a human rights council that includes China, Saudia Arabia, and Venezuela really have?



"Because it isn't perfect, it should go away in it's entirety!"

"What?....no, I have nothing to replace it with. We'll look at that later."


Brings up memories of the horribly inane ACA rhetoric.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 17:48:08


Post by: WrentheFaceless


Ironic the timing of leaving the human rights council with the border debacle going on.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 17:54:55


Post by: TheMeanDM


As I said on my personal fb account:

How are we to be a beacon for all that is good and right in the world when we purposefully and intentionally surrender our place in history as a just and moral leader in the free world?

I never dreamed of a day when we would abandon the noble vision of human rights and equality for all peoples, but I fear that with the withdrawal of the US from the Human Rights Council we have turned a dream into a nightmare and snuffed out a sorely needed light in this darkening world. The repercussions of this ill conceived action will, I fear, trigger more pain and suffering in a world that already sees far too much of each.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 17:58:53


Post by: Ustrello


While I do believe leaving is a bad thing, especially given the extreme anti-Israeli bias and hypocrisy of the HR council we need to be there. But at the same time we have left before and in recent memory


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:01:51


Post by: d-usa


Well, there were plenty of times we could have left to make a point rather than looking like we are just taking our ball and going home because someone was mean to us.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:13:38


Post by: Sarouan


So many things keep coming from the US, these days. And then there is this "trade war" with China. Timing is also weird - it's clear China is still a crucial ally for dealing with North Korea, and yet Trump keep insisting on these tariffs right now. Maybe going for World War 3, heh.

I know Trump is clearly focusing on campaigning for his next mandate, but still...wonder how he can manage to handle the race to the finish line, at this pace.

Yes, kids in cage are horrible. But to be honest, when seeing howTrump was praising North Korea's dictator, it makes sense that it wouldn't bother him. Morality is clearly not his priority (was it even once in his life?).

The defense doesn't surprise me. When I read the comments on Twitter, it's the same arguments that keep coming - deflecting on what Obama and Hillary "did", most of the time.

Anyway, aren't the two chambers still in the hands of the Republicans ? They can do anything they want without the Democrats, right ? They just need to vote as a party fully united, after all. Line behind the Great Leader. So, what's really "blocking" in the end ?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:24:40


Post by: Ouze


Yes, at this point the GOP holds the presidency, both houses of congress, and a majority on the SCOTUS, which is why it's especially execrable when the democrats are randomly getting blamed for stuff (like the lie about them being responsible for child separation).

Even if it were true (and it's not), the GOP literally holds every level of power currently. They have never seemed to be able to move past the aggrieved language of minority losers into actually governing. Even now, it's a near daily tirade of persecution and unjustness straight from the twitter feed of the POTUS. The election is long over and they don't seem to realize they won.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:28:04


Post by: Frazzled


 Sarouan wrote:
So many things keep coming from the US, these days. And then there is this "trade war" with China. Timing is also weird - it's clear China is still a crucial ally for dealing with North Korea, and yet Trump keep insisting on these tariffs right now. Maybe going for World War 3, heh.

I know Trump is clearly focusing on campaigning for his next mandate, but still...wonder how he can manage to handle the race to the finish line, at this pace.

Yes, kids in cage are horrible. But to be honest, when seeing howTrump was praising North Korea's dictator, it makes sense that it wouldn't bother him. Morality is clearly not his priority (was it even once in his life?).

The defense doesn't surprise me. When I read the comments on Twitter, it's the same arguments that keep coming - deflecting on what Obama and Hillary "did", most of the time.

Anyway, aren't the two chambers still in the hands of the Republicans ? They can do anything they want without the Democrats, right ? They just need to vote as a party fully united, after all. Line behind the Great Leader. So, what's really "blocking" in the end ?


60 votes are need in the Senate.
Congress has forgotten how to legislate. They have not unilaterally attempted to pass legislation without Presidential Leadership since Newt Gingrich. Pragmatically, the President has led Congress on new legislation since FDR. Obama was a dilettante who thought he could delegate everything to Pelosi/Schumer (fiasco) and Trump doesn't know what the word leadership even means. Plus he picks fights with his own party even when they are trying to push legislation he supports on apparent whims (because again, he's not actually part of the Republican Party, he's purely Trump Party).


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:28:50


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


To be fair, when the basis of your ideology is that the State always is bad, of course you can't govern effectively; to do so would undermine your own reason for existing in the first place.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:29:29


Post by: Frazzled


 Ouze wrote:
Yes, at this point the GOP holds the presidency, both houses of congress, and a majority on the SCOTUS, which is why it's especially execrable when the democrats are randomly getting blamed for stuff (like the lie about them being responsible for child separation).

Even if it were true (and it's not), the GOP literally holds every level of power currently. They have never seemed to be able to move past the aggrieved language of minority losers into actually governing. Even now, it's a near daily tired of persecution and unjustness straight from the twitter feed of the POTUS. The election is long over and they don't seem to realize they won.


Yes. At this point I am ok with that. Waiting on changing fates to bring in better people. The US cycles. We are in a low point. That will change.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:31:04


Post by: Ouze


 Frazzled wrote:
The US cycles. We are in a low point. That will change.


Intellectually I know this is true but boy it sure doesn't feel like that, this feels like the last 10 minutes of The Empire Strikes Back every day.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:33:26


Post by: Vaktathi


 Sarouan wrote:
So many things keep coming from the US, these days. And then there is this "trade war" with China. Timing is also weird - it's clear China is still a crucial ally for dealing with North Korea, and yet Trump keep insisting on these tariffs right now. Maybe going for World War 3, heh.

I know Trump is clearly focusing on campaigning for his next mandate, but still...wonder how he can manage to handle the race to the finish line, at this pace.

Yes, kids in cage are horrible. But to be honest, when seeing howTrump was praising North Korea's dictator, it makes sense that it wouldn't bother him. Morality is clearly not his priority (was it even once in his life?).

The defense doesn't surprise me. When I read the comments on Twitter, it's the same arguments that keep coming - deflecting on what Obama and Hillary "did", most of the time.

Anyway, aren't the two chambers still in the hands of the Republicans ? They can do anything they want without the Democrats, right ? They just need to vote as a party fully united, after all. Line behind the Great Leader. So, what's really "blocking" in the end ?
Nobody is under the impression that this is somehow out of Trump's hands. It's culture war theater and political hardball, not a policy or legislation failure.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:35:34


Post by: cuda1179


 sebster wrote:
[Bail values are set according to the financial circumstance of the accused.

.


It's also based on the likelihood of flight from justice. Someone with strong ties to a community gets lower bail than someone that doesn't.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:39:59


Post by: Whirlwind


 Sarouan wrote:


I know Trump is clearly focusing on campaigning for his next mandate, but still...wonder how he can manage to handle the race to the finish line, at this pace.

Yes, kids in cage are horrible. But to be honest, when seeing howTrump was praising North Korea's dictator, it makes sense that it wouldn't bother him. Morality is clearly not his priority (was it even once in his life?).


Trump's probably a 'mild' psychopath.

You can read more about such characteristics here:-

https://www.thoughtco.com/characteristics-of-the-psychopathic-personality-973128

for example

If the ploy fails to work and they are blamed, they will emphatically deny any responsibility and, without feeling any shame, turn to lies, manipulation and point their fingers at the "true" culprits. When psychopaths are unable to convince those in superior positions that they have not erred, they fume, and obsess over it, often murmuring sarcastic comments under their breath as they plot their revenge.


A lot of what Trump exhibits falls into these characterisations. What it doesn't mean is he runs around gunning people down.





US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:42:28


Post by: cuda1179


 sebster wrote:
[
Anyhow, I don't agree it's worse, but I guess it doesn't really matter which recent acts by GW Bush or Trump were objectively greater breaches of human rights. Jesus, what a conversation.



Hey, I think you missed a President in there that had a history of human rights violations. Obama's policy of drone striking the Hell out of anything that moves, and targeting even American citizens abroad without due process is also pretty heinous.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:48:59


Post by: Frazzled


 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
The US cycles. We are in a low point. That will change.


Intellectually I know this is true but boy it sure doesn't feel like that, this feels like the last 10 minutes of The Empire Strikes Back every day.


Come on, Vader was Way more competent!


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 18:50:00


Post by: BaronIveagh


 cuda1179 wrote:
Hey, I think you missed a President in there that had a history of human rights violations. Obama's policy of drone striking the Hell out of anything that moves, and targeting even American citizens abroad without due process is also pretty heinous.


Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand. How about his endorsement of brutal dictators? No? Oh, he didn't? Drone strikes on terrorists? Get a real crime against humanity. next you'll complain about shooting Osama Bin Laden without a trial.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:00:17


Post by: cuda1179


 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The issue with voter ID laws is that those who fight so hard for them aren't willing to put even half that same effort into getting those IDs to the people who need them.



I will agree with this.

For the sake of voter rolls, I think that some proof of eligibility should be necessary to register. And in those states that allow illegal aliens to vote in local elections (hey if a state wants that, I'll support their opinion for LOCAL elections) they should be forced to have two voter rolls, one for local elections, one for national.

Automatically registering people to vote when they get an ID (or in other instances) should be perfected. I'd love to have as many eligible people as possible registered to vote, but the holes in the system that allow non-eligible people to be registered to vote are huge.

Now, when it comes to voter ID laws, I think the only ID's allowed should be government issued ID's (Driver's license, passport, military ID, non-driver ID, etc.). I'm not so supportive of College ID's. At any rate, if ID's are needed to vote, the non-driver citizen ID's should be totally free, and easily accessible to obtain. Every Courthouse, post office, and Government office should be able to take applications for them. I also believe that penalties for applying for such ID when you knowingly lie should be real.

I also think that states that allow illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses should have their Driver's license specifically marked with a "not eligible to vote" tagline. (also do this for felons and people that renounced their citizenship).


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:02:58


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Hey, I think you missed a President in there that had a history of human rights violations. Obama's policy of drone striking the Hell out of anything that moves, and targeting even American citizens abroad without due process is also pretty heinous.


Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand. How about his endorsement of brutal dictators? No? Oh, he didn't? Drone strikes on terrorists? Get a real crime against humanity. next you'll complain about shooting Osama Bin Laden without a trial.


One of the kids in a cage pics is from 2014.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:10:03


Post by: Disciple of Fate


But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:13:02


Post by: cuda1179


 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

.


All right, I have some questions, as I am also a Midwestern business owner that employs about that many people. Did you know she was illegal? If so, why did you employ her? If no, then that likely means she was improperly using someone else's identity. I somehow doubt that she wasn't given any time in an immigration court, and you don't get afforded an attorney in civil court. Her children are not stranded in her state. By definition they are also Mexican citizens (as their mother is) and are free to join her if they so choose.

Now, I'm not totally heartless. This must really suck for her and her children. However, it was her parents that put her in the position initially, and she continued to live in that position of her own free will long after she was in control of her own life. We as a country have the right to establish our borders and regulate immigration.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:14:13


Post by: nels1031


 BaronIveagh wrote:

Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.


Raises hand.

http://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5

 BaronIveagh wrote:
How about his endorsement of brutal dictators?


Hand still raised.

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/31/obama-lifts-freeze-weapons-transfer-egyptian-dictator/

Just one example. Its diplomacy, and nearly every US president tends to have relations with unsavory folks. Never to Trumps level, of course, but that the nature of the Trump-beast.

I get that you don't like Trump, that's totally cool and your right, but lets take off the rose colored glasses.




US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:19:32


Post by: Disciple of Fate


So are you arguing that Sisi is on the same level as Kim?

Regarding the 2014 pictures, again: But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.

I mean the article even explains the context.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:20:48


Post by: cuda1179


 Frazzled wrote:
[
All citizens have a Social Security Card.
You cannot write a check, make a major payment, or even enter many government offices without ID.
I am fully behind making it easy to get said ID. Any post office, DMV, police station, or grocery store/department store which meets minimal criteria should be able to issue one, free of charge to the citizen.

If I have to have government approved ID to avail myself of my Second Amendment rights, then voters should have to have ID to vote to elect people who could change those rights.



Actually Frazz, that's not quite accurate. There is NO requirement that any citizen must obtain a Social Security number. It is not mandatory, no one can make you do it, and hospitals are technically banned from automatically doing it for you without your permission. Lack of a Social Security number can not be used to deny you any right. You can still vote, pay taxes, be employed, get medical attention, get welfare, travel the country, get a driver's license, or even buy a gun (although sometimes it complicates the issue). In fact there was a lawsuit a while back that verified that an employer can NOT discriminate against you and deny you employment because of a lack of a Social Security Number.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

You think it’s silly to require proof to have your right to free speech. So you must also have to think it is silly to have ID requirements for any other right, otherwise you are applying a double standard. Because you can’t have tiers of rights. A right is a right.


You can certainly have tiers of rights. Any time rights interact, they are organised into tiers. You have the right of free speech, but people also have the right to not be slandered which trumps your right to free speech.


Actually, that's not quite right. You still have the right to slander anyone you want, and the government will not stop you. Facing the civil litigation for that is another matter.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:27:40


Post by: nels1031


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
So are you arguing that Sisi is on the same level as Kim?


Nah, not arguing anything. Kim is a different kind of dictator, but same related species.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Regarding the 2014 pictures, again: But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.

I mean the article even explains the context.


So it was morally acceptable under Obama?



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:31:22


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 cuda1179 wrote:
 sebster wrote:
[
Anyhow, I don't agree it's worse, but I guess it doesn't really matter which recent acts by GW Bush or Trump were objectively greater breaches of human rights. Jesus, what a conversation.



Hey, I think you missed a President in there that had a history of human rights violations. Obama's policy of drone striking the Hell out of anything that moves, and targeting even American citizens abroad without due process is also pretty heinous.
If it wasn't you I'd think this was a sarcastic joke.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:32:00


Post by: d-usa


 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?



You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:34:47


Post by: NinthMusketeer


At any rate, I have my comment on voter IDs from before:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Voter fraud only exists as an issue to help Republicans suppress voters who tend to vote Democrat. There is essentially zero voter fraud, the number amounts to less than a rounding error. Again, it only exists to suppress voters who trend towards Democrat voters. There is no other logical explanation, and to suggest otherwise is to support suppressing voters because you disagree with them. I cannot stress this enough.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:37:13


Post by: ScarletRose


Yeah, I thought it was crystal clear that when Great Leader said there were "millions of illegal votes" he meant the votes that weren't cast for him.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:43:10


Post by: nels1031


 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:47:26


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?
You realize that's a disingenuous argument that entirely dances around the point and amounts to whataboutism defending what's happening, right?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:48:23


Post by: Ustrello


 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?


Don't worry brosef, brosiden lord of the brocean, brozilla we know you are being obtuse and purposefully missing the point


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 19:51:47


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 nels1031 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
So are you arguing that Sisi is on the same level as Kim?


Nah, not arguing anything. Kim is a different kind of dictator, but same related species.

Hell no, Kim is on an entirely different plane of species than Sisi, equating the two is ridiculous. What is even more ridiculous is you equating Obama lifting weapon sanctions on Egypt as somehow being an endorsement like the blatant apologism of Trump, hint out of your own biased article:
During the call, “President Obama also reiterated U.S. concerns about Egypt’s continued imprisonment of non-violent activists and mass trials,” and “encouraged increased respect for freedom of speech and assembly and emphasized that these issues remain a focus for the United States.”

Funny way of endorsing people compared to this:

“We’re having very good discussions. Kim Jong-un, he really has been very open and I think very honourable, from everything we’re seeing”, Mr Trump told reporters in the Oval Office.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-kim-jongun-meeting-summit-white-house-us-north-korea-a8320391.html

"Well, he is very talented," Trump said. "Anybody that takes over a situation like he did at 26 years of age and is able to run it and run it tough. I don't say he was nice."

"Very few people at that age – you can take one out of ten thousand probably couldn’t do it."

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/391785-trump-says-kim-has-a-great-personality

 nels1031 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Regarding the 2014 pictures, again: But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.

I mean the article even explains the context.


So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


Again, context matters. They were temporarily housed there, it would have been unacceptable to have held them any longer than required. Meanwhile Trump policy is to put them there in the first place. Can't believe you're actually equating the two as somehow on the same level.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:01:22


Post by: NinthMusketeer


So a certain church had something to say about a certain someone's justification of seperating families.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:14:36


Post by: d-usa


Remember that time PETA took dogs from people? It really was no different than all the times dogs wandering alone were put in a shelter. Totally the same, nothing to see.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:17:38


Post by: Whirlwind



This is a view on how things started in 1933 in a certain country. It's definitely worth a read as a comparison to todays events.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1008724417470521344.html


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:22:51


Post by: cuda1179


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 sebster wrote:
[
Anyhow, I don't agree it's worse, but I guess it doesn't really matter which recent acts by GW Bush or Trump were objectively greater breaches of human rights. Jesus, what a conversation.



Hey, I think you missed a President in there that had a history of human rights violations. Obama's policy of drone striking the Hell out of anything that moves, and targeting even American citizens abroad without due process is also pretty heinous.
If it wasn't you I'd think this was a sarcastic joke.


So, you're saying Obama didn't have his share of human rights violations?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:24:24


Post by: whembly


Hey... can we dial it down a bit ya'll? We just got this thing reopened.

As to the splitting the families when caught entering illegally... how likely do you think if Trump were to re-institute the catch & release policy (ie, no more zero tolerance), that traffickers would exploit that even more by buying/kidnapping kids in order to cross the border w/o being detained?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Whirlwind wrote:

This is a view on how things started in 1933 in a certain country. It's definitely worth a read as a comparison to todays events.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1008724417470521344.html

Zero comparison.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:25:22


Post by: cuda1179


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?
You realize that's a disingenuous argument that entirely dances around the point and amounts to whataboutism defending what's happening, right?


Hey, someone specifically asked for "whataboutism". When they ask for it, don't be shocked when it happens.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:25:25


Post by: BaronIveagh


 nels1031 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
How about his endorsement of brutal dictators?


Hand still raised.

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/31/obama-lifts-freeze-weapons-transfer-egyptian-dictator/

Just one example. Its diplomacy, and nearly every US president tends to have relations with unsavory folks. Never to Trumps level, of course, but that the nature of the Trump-beast.

I get that you don't like Trump, that's totally cool and your right, but lets take off the rose colored glasses.


Really? Tell me, where in that article does Obama suggest that he's a-ok with al-Sisi' actions? I seem to be missing that part reading through it, so.... no, he did not endorse him. Whereas Trump came back from the 'Summit of the Dictators' as some wag at FOX called it with rave reviews of Kim Jung Un and his policies, and then made excuses for him committing crimes that make al-Sisi look like an amateur. And then has suggested American press should be more like North Korean state TV.

There's a very big difference there.

Perhaps you should take off your own colored glasses.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:27:33


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?
You realize that's a disingenuous argument that entirely dances around the point and amounts to whataboutism defending what's happening, right?


Hey, someone specifically asked for "whataboutism". When they ask for it, don't be shocked when it happens.
So you support seperating children from their parents and in the process submitting them to emotional torture that can very well scar them for life. In the name of partisan politics. Good to know that's your quality as a human being.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:30:04


Post by: cuda1179


 Whirlwind wrote:

This is a view on how things started in 1933 in a certain country. It's definitely worth a read as a comparison to todays events.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1008724417470521344.html


Oh for the love of God, you know the thread has jumped the shark when someone whips out the Nazi parallels. Disingenuous at best.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:33:17


Post by: whembly


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?
You realize that's a disingenuous argument that entirely dances around the point and amounts to whataboutism defending what's happening, right?


Hey, someone specifically asked for "whataboutism". When they ask for it, don't be shocked when it happens.
So you support seperating children from their parents and in the process submitting them to emotional torture that can very well scar them for life. In the name of partisan politics. Good to know that's your quality as a human being.

NinthMusketeer... how is that any different than citizens breaking the law and gets incarcerated? Who is at fault here?

We really have two choices:
1) Have open borders, and the country deals with such ramifications.
or
2) Enforce the laws on the books, and potentially separating families...and deal with such ramifications (ie, build better detention center to handle families, adjust laws, etc...).



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:34:09


Post by: Rosebuddy


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
How about his endorsement of brutal dictators?


Hand still raised.

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/31/obama-lifts-freeze-weapons-transfer-egyptian-dictator/

Just one example. Its diplomacy, and nearly every US president tends to have relations with unsavory folks. Never to Trumps level, of course, but that the nature of the Trump-beast.

I get that you don't like Trump, that's totally cool and your right, but lets take off the rose colored glasses.


Really? Tell me, where in that article does Obama suggest that he's a-ok with al-Sisi' actions? I seem to be missing that part reading through it, so.... no, he did not endorse him. Whereas Trump came back from the 'Summit of the Dictators' as some wag at FOX called it with rave reviews of Kim Jung Un and his policies, and then made excuses for him committing crimes that make al-Sisi look like an amateur. And then has suggested American press should be more like North Korean state TV.

There's a very big difference there.

Perhaps you should take off your own colored glasses.


I don't think it really matters that Obama said he had "concerns" or whatever. Dude still droned people and supported dictators. You're just falling for a veneer of respectability because Obama looked better in a suit.



 whembly wrote:

We really have two choices:
1) Have open borders, and the country deals with such ramifications.
or
2) Enforce the laws on the books, and potentially separating families...and deal with such ramifications (ie, build better detention center to handle families, adjust laws, etc...).



Well, you could pick the one that doesn't involved putting people in concentration camps and traumatising children.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:34:20


Post by: BaronIveagh


 whembly wrote:

As to the splitting the families when caught entering illegally... how likely do you think if Trump were to re-institute the catch & release policy (ie, no more zero tolerance), that traffickers would exploit that even more by buying/kidnapping kids in order to cross the border w/o being detained?


Catch and Release didn't keep them from being detained, so how would it benefit them? It just set limits on how long they were held.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:34:37


Post by: cuda1179


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?
You realize that's a disingenuous argument that entirely dances around the point and amounts to whataboutism defending what's happening, right?


Hey, someone specifically asked for "whataboutism". When they ask for it, don't be shocked when it happens.
So you support seperating children from their parents and in the process submitting them to emotional torture that can very well scar them for life. In the name of partisan politics. Good to know that's your quality as a human being.


You could make a fortune selling all those strawmen you're building. The question wasn't whether this was good or bad. The question being asked was whether Obama had done it. The answer is YES, he did.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:35:30


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 whembly wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?
You realize that's a disingenuous argument that entirely dances around the point and amounts to whataboutism defending what's happening, right?


Hey, someone specifically asked for "whataboutism". When they ask for it, don't be shocked when it happens.
So you support seperating children from their parents and in the process submitting them to emotional torture that can very well scar them for life. In the name of partisan politics. Good to know that's your quality as a human being.

NinthMusketeer... how is that any different than citizens breaking the law and gets incarcerated? Who is at fault here?

We really have two choices:
1) Have open borders, and the country deals with such ramifications.
or
2) Enforce the laws on the books, and potentially separating families...and deal with such ramifications (ie, build better detention center to handle families, adjust laws, etc...).

So you are also willing to separate children from their parents, submitting them to emotional torture that can scar them for life, in the name of partisan politics. Good to know your quality as a human being.

I've reached the point of just ignoring the deflections and holding people accountable for what they are defending.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

So it was morally acceptable under Obama?


You do understand the difference between unaccompanied and accompanied, right?


Yeah, bro.

You do understand the question was :
Anyone remember that time Obama built prisons for children, or kept them in cages raise a hand.
, right?
You realize that's a disingenuous argument that entirely dances around the point and amounts to whataboutism defending what's happening, right?


Hey, someone specifically asked for "whataboutism". When they ask for it, don't be shocked when it happens.
So you support seperating children from their parents and in the process submitting them to emotional torture that can very well scar them for life. In the name of partisan politics. Good to know that's your quality as a human being.


You could make a fortune selling all those strawmen you're building. The question wasn't whether this was good or bad. The question being asked was whether Obama had done it. The answer is YES, he did.
So you do not support the Trump administration's actions, or you do and what I said is true. Let us know which.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:38:15


Post by: cuda1179


The pictures being circulated of children in cages are of the temporary holding units. Here is what an actual youth detention facility looks like.

[Thumb - Holding.jpg]
[Thumb - Holding 2.jpg]


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:41:27


Post by: NinthMusketeer


So you are deflecting, the only reason to do so is because what I said is true.

Let's reiterate: you support seperating children from their parents, causing emotional torture that can scar them for life, in the name of partisan politics. This is something that you support.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:42:40


Post by: KTG17


Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

A couple of years ago, all the landscaping and tree service crews I noticed around my neighborhood looked like they had a lot of illegals in their crews, if not completely made up of illegals. Today? All red-blooded American from what I can tell. What does that mean? More Americans working. I like that. No, I love that.

Is Trump a pig? Sure. I don't care. Didn't stop some hot women from sleeping with him left and right. Let's not forget our beloved Bill Clinton was sticking cigar's up Monica's cha-cha while discussing peace in the middle east on the phone with Arafat. I could care less. He's a liar you say? Find me one politician that isn't. They all sell their souls long before they move up the political ladder. I have never looked at a president as the guy to steer my moral compass. He is there to make sure the economy is doing well and to defend this country. Beyond that, you are making him out to be more than what he is.

And to be fair, I do not agree with a lot of things he has done.

** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea PARENTS: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.

** I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right. I am not racist, sexist, or anything else liberals like to use on Trump supporters. And I didn't even vote for the guy. But just about everyone in my family did. So yes, I resent that label of 'basket of deplorables'. Its astonishing to me that many of the servicemen and women who are defending America's interest around the world are thrown into that basket too. And then you have Bill Maher hoping for a recession so Trump loses? Of course he does, cause he knows Trump will win re-election because the democrats haven't a single candidate to lead them. All liberals can do is hope Trump fails. Which is absolutely crazy and damn near treasonous to me. The last thing I want to see is Americans lose their jobs, families to suffer, etc, so my choice of candidate can take office.

So all those who bash the right and Trump should spend some time checking out what is coming from the left. Its pretty poisonous too.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:43:01


Post by: BaronIveagh


 cuda1179 wrote:

Oh for the love of God, you know the thread has jumped the shark when someone whips out the Nazi parallels. Disingenuous at best.


Hmm... well, let me ask this: at what point would you consider it acceptable? I mean, we really have reached the point that a man aligned with Nazism is putting up detention camps for people he does not like. I mean, there's times it's hyperbole, but others...well..

I know we can do it if he comes out on stage in a brown shirt and a toothbrush mustache draped in the Blutfahne, but at the same time...

Strange Days indeed.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:46:33


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

A couple of years ago, all the landscaping and tree service crews I noticed around my neighborhood looked like they had a lot of illegals in their crews, if not completely made up of illegals. Today? All red-blooded American from what I can tell. What does that mean? More Americans working. I like that. No, I love that.

Is Trump a pig? Sure. I don't care. Didn't stop some hot women from sleeping with him left and right. Let's not forget our beloved Bill Clinton was sticking cigar's up Monica's cha-cha while discussing peace in the middle east on the phone with Arafat. I could care less. He's a liar you say? Find me one politician that isn't. They all sell their souls long before they move up the political ladder. I have never looked at a president as the guy to steer my moral compass. He is there to make sure the economy is doing well and to defend this country. Beyond that, you are making him out to be more than what he is.

** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.

** I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right. I am not racist, sexist, or anything else liberals like to use on Trump supporters. And I didn't even vote for the guy. But just about everyone in my family did. So yes, I resent that label of 'basket of deplorables'. Its astonishing to me that many of the servicemen and women who are defending America's interest around the world are thrown into that basket too. And then you have Bill Maher hoping for a recession so Trump loses? Of course he does, cause he know Trump will win re-election because the democrats haven't a single candidate to lead them. All liberals can do is hope Trump fails. Which is absolutely crazy and damn near treasonous to me. The last thing I want to see is Americans lose their jobs, families to suffer, etc, so my choice of candidate can take office.

So all those who bash the right and Trump should spend some time checking out what is coming from the left. Its pretty poisonous too.

The hypocrisy of the last statement sums it all up.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:48:50


Post by: BaronIveagh


 KTG17 wrote:

** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.


So, you admit then that taking the children of people who DIDN'T break that law is wrong then? Because that's also an effect of this policy. People in favor of this seem to have this weird delusion that every kid they're grabbing is from someone who committed a crime. And in other fun, at least one Immigration Court judge has already been using the seizure of their children to force people who may or may not have committed a crime to plead guilty if they want to see their kids again.

So, before you open your mouth and tell us all how great it is, please be sure to remove your foot from your mouth before speaking.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:49:03


Post by: KTG17


 NinthMusketeer wrote:

The hypocrisy of the last statement sums it all up.


You are exactly the kind of person I have grown to dislike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:

So, you admit then that taking the children of people who DIDN'T break that law is wrong then?


We're talking about illegal immigrants crossing the border, correct?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:51:02


Post by: Rosebuddy


 KTG17 wrote:
** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.


That's massively socially irresponsible. Those children are going to grow up, and... then what? Do you actually want a permanent underclass of essentially homeless orphans? The supposed wardens of society need to take a broader view of things than you can.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:51:18


Post by: cuda1179


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
[]So you do not support the Trump administration's actions, or you do and what I said is true. Let us know which.



The answer to this is a bit nuanced and not exactly a "yes or no". Ordering less leniency when it comes to catch and release does have it's ups and downs. Do I feel that more effort should be made to keep families together? Yes, I do. I feel that at least a good faith effort to keep them in the same facility should be made when possible, even if they aren't in the same "cell" in that facility. However, this is sometimes not possible when you consider space, age, gender, and other conditions and complications.

Temporary separation for medical and psychological evaluations are okay (measured in hours, not days)


If a parent has shown signs of drug use, gang activity, hostility, or has a warrant out for another crime or there are signs of child neglect or abuse, I'm totally fine with separating them. I think even you would agree with this.


If the parent crossed into the US, and in doing so put the child at great chance of physical harm (some desert crossings have a 10% chance of death for adults, let alone children), I'd possibly consider it okay to separate them.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:53:46


Post by: BaronIveagh


 KTG17 wrote:

We're talking about illegal immigrants crossing the border, correct?


No. That's the problem. There's a little fine print to this: What they've been doing is just taking the kids of people like asylum seekers, and taking their kids too, even those that followed all the laws regarding their entry. Illegals are the biggest group having their kids taken, but not the ONLY one. What's going on is that under Zero Tolerance they're assuming that all asylum applications are fraudulent. This has already led to lawsuits over this, which are ongoing.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:54:23


Post by: KTG17


Rosebuddy wrote:


That's massively socially irresponsible. Those children are going to grow up, and... then what? Do you actually want a permanent underclass of essentially homeless orphans? The supposed wardens of society need to take a broader view of things than you can.


???????????????????????

What is your impression of what is going on? That the parents are thrown in prison and the kids are thrown out on to the curb?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:55:49


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 KTG17 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:

The hypocrisy of the last statement sums it all up.


You are exactly the kind of person I have grown to dislike.
Yeah, its understandable that you wouldn't like someone holding you accountable for what you say, given how disingenuous and fallacious it is.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:56:19


Post by: KTG17


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:

We're talking about illegal immigrants crossing the border, correct?


No. That's the problem. There's a little fine print to this: What they've been doing is just taking the kids of people like asylum seekers who are here legally and taking their kids too. Illegals are the biggest group having their kids taken, but not the ONLY one.


Please show me an example of that happening.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:56:53


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
[]So you do not support the Trump administration's actions, or you do and what I said is true. Let us know which.



The answer to this is a bit nuanced and not exactly a "yes or no". Ordering less leniency when it comes to catch and release does have it's ups and downs. Do I feel that more effort should be made to keep families together? Yes, I do. I feel that at least a good faith effort to keep them in the same facility should be made when possible, even if they aren't in the same "cell" in that facility. However, this is sometimes not possible when you consider space, age, gender, and other conditions and complications.

Temporary separation for medical and psychological evaluations are okay (measured in hours, not days)


If a parent has shown signs of drug use, gang activity, hostility, or has a warrant out for another crime or there are signs of child neglect or abuse, I'm totally fine with separating them. I think even you would agree with this.


If the parent crossed into the US, and in doing so put the child at great chance of physical harm (some desert crossings have a 10% chance of death for adults, let alone children), I'd possibly consider it okay to separate them.
So you DON'T support what the administration is doing? Because what you described is not the same as what they are doing.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:57:13


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Rosebuddy wrote:
I don't think it really matters that Obama said he had "concerns" or whatever. Dude still droned people and supported dictators. You're just falling for a veneer of respectability because Obama looked better in a suit.

You could expand on that argument and widen it to how everyone is terrible and were all going to hell. No, there is a difference even if you don't like Obama.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:57:54


Post by: cuda1179


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:

** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.


So, you admit then that taking the children of people who DIDN'T break that law is wrong then? Because that's also an effect of this policy. People in favor of this seem to have this weird delusion that every kid they're grabbing is from someone who committed a crime. And in other fun, at least one Immigration Court judge has already been using the seizure of their children to force people who may or may not have committed a crime to plead guilty if they want to see their kids again.

So, before you open your mouth and tell us all how great it is, please be sure to remove your foot from your mouth before speaking.


Just to be clear, I'm not defending either of those things and I think that a Judge that does things like that should be on the short-track to disbarment.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:59:23


Post by: KTG17


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:

The hypocrisy of the last statement sums it all up.


You are exactly the kind of person I have grown to dislike.
Yeah, its understandable that you wouldn't like someone holding you accountable for what you say, given how disingenuous and fallacious it is.


Holding me accountable?! I wrote it, I stand by it. Not sure where the disingenuous and fallacious part comes in. But you keep on throwing out names there. I know the left likes to throw out names, force peeps to get defensive, dig their heels, and waste time arguing with false accusations. This is what you do. This is why I do not like you.

When you actually do something that's accountable, point it out to me.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 20:59:38


Post by: BaronIveagh


 KTG17 wrote:

What is your impression of what is going on? That the parents are thrown in prison and the kids are thrown out on to the curb?


Actually the parents are generally being let go with time served (illegal boarder crossing is only a misdemeanor) but the kids are being held longer than the parents.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:00:28


Post by: Manchu


Reminder that Rule One is Be Polite. I will be suspending access to the Off Topic sub forum to posters who keep breaking rules in the US Politics thread.

Thanks!


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:02:22


Post by: Rosebuddy


 KTG17 wrote:

What is your impression of what is going on? That the parents are thrown in prison and the kids are thrown out on to the curb?


There is no particular oversight of children of imprisoned parents. The family is on its own.


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You could expand on that argument and widen it to how everyone is terrible and were all going to hell. No, there is a difference even if you don't like Obama.


I don't think that the difference is one that matters.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:02:32


Post by: Frazzled


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.

Cages are cages.but I guess that was ok. You know, Obama.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:03:18


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

Few things, TPP was meant to collar China in regards to trade, Trump ended that idea in favor of a harmful trade war for his own voters. You can talk to NK without whatever that dog and pony show was supposed to be. Pissing off allies is a bad idea because said allies have been helping promote the US's self interest around the world. The US has enjoyed riding on the back of the world and Trump seems to forget that. Everything you listed Trump is basically doing more harm than good for the US.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
But the context of that picture is entirely different. That was out of necessity for the amount of unacompanied minors flooding in overloading shelter in 2014, not a choice as made by the current admin.

Cages are cages.but I guess that was ok. You know, Obama.

Ah ok, so if we narrow it down to the dictionary definition you can make the argument that its equal, bravo! Who cares about context right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rosebuddy wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

You could expand on that argument and widen it to how everyone is terrible and were all going to hell. No, there is a difference even if you don't like Obama.


I don't think that the difference is one that matters.

Because you haven't heard of the concept of normative and soft power? There is a significant difference, regardless of how you wish to personally view it.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:05:52


Post by: Frazzled


 d-usa wrote:
Remember that time PETA took dogs from people? It really was no different than all the times dogs wandering alone were put in a shelter. Totally the same, nothing to see.


Remember when grabbed a bunch of dogs and then killed them?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:06:02


Post by: d-usa


 cuda1179 wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:

** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.


So, you admit then that taking the children of people who DIDN'T break that law is wrong then? Because that's also an effect of this policy. People in favor of this seem to have this weird delusion that every kid they're grabbing is from someone who committed a crime. And in other fun, at least one Immigration Court judge has already been using the seizure of their children to force people who may or may not have committed a crime to plead guilty if they want to see their kids again.

So, before you open your mouth and tell us all how great it is, please be sure to remove your foot from your mouth before speaking.


Just to be clear, I'm not defending either of those things and I think that a Judge that does things like that should be on the short-track to disbarment.


Just to clarify: they are not real judges, the families don’t have any access to the judicial branch, this is all just administrative procedures not actually legal procedures.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:06:27


Post by: Rosebuddy


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

Few things, TPP was meant to collar China in regards to trade, Trump ended that idea in favor of a harmful trade war for his own voters. You can talk to NK without whatever that dog and pony show was supposed to be. Pissing off allies is a bad idea because said allies have been helping promote the US's self interest around the world. The US has enjoyed riding on the back of the world and Trump seems to forget that. Everything you listed Trump is basically doing more harm than good for the US.



Canada and the EU and whatever aren't necessarily all that useful to the US, though. Taking a strictly US-centric view it is likely better to to be an American in a diminished and isolated empire than one that does the military work for the rest of the West, regardless of whether it benefits the US directly or not. Well, better to be the kind of American who makes these sorts of choices, anyway.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:08:09


Post by: BaronIveagh


 cuda1179 wrote:
I think that a Judge that does things like that should be on the short-track to disbarment.


The list of Immigration Judges who have been disbarred for... questionable behavior and illegal dealings is rather long. Even compared to other legal professions. This is partially due to not actually being part of the Judicial Branch, but rather an arm of the Executive.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:10:29


Post by: cuda1179


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
[]So you do not support the Trump administration's actions, or you do and what I said is true. Let us know which.



The answer to this is a bit nuanced and not exactly a "yes or no". Ordering less leniency when it comes to catch and release does have it's ups and downs. Do I feel that more effort should be made to keep families together? Yes, I do. I feel that at least a good faith effort to keep them in the same facility should be made when possible, even if they aren't in the same "cell" in that facility. However, this is sometimes not possible when you consider space, age, gender, and other conditions and complications.

Temporary separation for medical and psychological evaluations are okay (measured in hours, not days)


If a parent has shown signs of drug use, gang activity, hostility, or has a warrant out for another crime or there are signs of child neglect or abuse, I'm totally fine with separating them. I think even you would agree with this.


If the parent crossed into the US, and in doing so put the child at great chance of physical harm (some desert crossings have a 10% chance of death for adults, let alone children), I'd possibly consider it okay to separate them.
So you DON'T support what the administration is doing? Because what you described is not the same as what they are doing.


I don't support the actions they are taking, no. I do feel that they are using the children as pawns and that's wrong. That being said, if the child falls into one of the previously mentions categories, it's likely best to separate them for their own safety.

That being said, I do support a stronger enforcement of the law. If people crossing the border illegally have children and are arrested, the children are along for the ride. The temporary detainment of the children is pretty unavoidable at that point. I think there needs to be A LOT more emphasis on the "temporary" part though.

I believe there should be more housing for mothers/fathers with young children to be housed together (kind of mini-dorm rooms). If the Alien has relatives or trusted friends that can take the child, I think that would be a decent option too. If they agree to expediated repatriation to their own country I think they should be reunited (or never separate) with their children and immediate escorted back home.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:10:51


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Rosebuddy wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it. NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change. Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them. Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river. I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.

Few things, TPP was meant to collar China in regards to trade, Trump ended that idea in favor of a harmful trade war for his own voters. You can talk to NK without whatever that dog and pony show was supposed to be. Pissing off allies is a bad idea because said allies have been helping promote the US's self interest around the world. The US has enjoyed riding on the back of the world and Trump seems to forget that. Everything you listed Trump is basically doing more harm than good for the US.



Canada and the EU and whatever aren't necessarily all that useful to the US, though. Taking a strictly US-centric view it is likely better to to be an American in a diminished and isolated empire than one that does the military work for the rest of the West, regardless of whether it benefits the US directly or not. Well, better to be the kind of American who makes these sorts of choices, anyway.

No, that is a woefully misinformed view on history. The US's European, Asian and South American allies have enabled decades of US hegemony and the construction of an economic system extremely beneficial to the US. The US's allies give it a power far beyond what it would have alone, but people only look at the military and ignore everything else. The US military is actively making the US money, it might not be clear to see, but the entire financial system and many of the international rules we have today are build on the backbone of that military. Leaving a vacuum would be detrimental to US economic and political interests.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:12:47


Post by: BaronIveagh


 d-usa wrote:
Remember that time PETA took dogs from people? It really was no different than all the times dogs wandering alone were put in a shelter. Totally the same, nothing to see.


Probably better than where they came from still. Brazil for example has something of nasty reputation of the government using street kids for target practice.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:15:20


Post by: Easy E


I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:17:18


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Easy E wrote:
I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.


I can get behind this notion. I like the idea of some of our posters being complicit in this. I've already had a sitdown today with my senator.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:27:47


Post by: Togusa


 Easy E wrote:
I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.


Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:29:00


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:36:42


Post by: Togusa


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:38:11


Post by: whembly


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:

We're talking about illegal immigrants crossing the border, correct?


No. That's the problem. There's a little fine print to this: What they've been doing is just taking the kids of people like asylum seekers, and taking their kids too, even those that followed all the laws regarding their entry. Illegals are the biggest group having their kids taken, but not the ONLY one. What's going on is that under Zero Tolerance they're assuming that all asylum applications are fraudulent. This has already led to lawsuits over this, which are ongoing.

Do you have citation for that?

If you're going to the border entry, or other port of entries (ie, US consulate, airports, etc...) and claim asylum, then no laws are broken. Are you saying in this scenario, every kid is being separated?

I think there's a awful lot of conflation between those who legally follow the law vs those who illegally enter the country and then claim asylum when caught.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:39:01


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:41:15


Post by: d-usa


You can prosecute them without family separations. Three other presidents have figured that out.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:42:21


Post by: Vaktathi


 KTG17 wrote:
Some random thoughts on politics and society these days....

** I'll give any politician credit where credit is due. Trump, while appearing bat-gak crazy at times, is actually confronting many issues I have had a huge problem with. Our previous 'traditional' politicians haven't done jack so I will give him props for that. Illegal immigration - I don't want it.
Nobody does. Nobody is stepping up to offer practical solutions however and what Trump is doing isn't helping.

Illegal immigration is a reality, and being dicks to people isnt going to stop it.



NAFTA and trade with China - I want something to change.
You want change, but why? Over what exactly? Do you understand these relationships?


Sort something out with NK? If you aren't going to blow the crap out of them, might as well try talking to them.
Nobody is upset that Trump is talking with NK. They are upset that Trump is treating Kim like an ally in person and admiring reprehensible aspects of his regime and seemingly offering up concessions over nothing and parading around a statement of intent as a solution...

And the previous months of directly taunting the dynamite monkey and awkwardly pulling out of the talks before rejoining didnt help.


Have we pissed off some of our allies in the process? Sure, but I don't care. Everyone serves their own interest, and they are no more innocent of that. Everyone has enjoyed riding our backs the last 70 years and I am tired of it. Don't like it? Cry me a river.

"Riding our back"? Your views of world history are...rather skewed, and more to the point, from a Realpolitik standpoint, we are the great current world empire and these are our allies and clients, pissing them off is generally not conducive to maintaining that status.

I never heard Bannon really speak until that CNN interview and I couldn't believe I agreed with almost everything he said. I don't know much about him beyond that interview, but if that's what has influenced Trump then I wish him the best.
For someone whos been running around with a Trump forum avatar, if youd never payed attention to Bannon before, you werent paying much attention...the dude literally ran a media outlet that was his personal political platform...



A couple of years ago, all the landscaping and tree service crews I noticed around my neighborhood looked like they had a lot of illegals in their crews, if not completely made up of illegals. Today? All red-blooded American from what I can tell. What does that mean? More Americans working. I like that. No, I love that.
Umm...how would you know? Are you in the business of asking the gardner for their papers? What exactly is a "red blooded american"?

I mean, unless you're engaging in some sort physical profiling, not sure how youd come to such a judgement.

More broadly speaking, overall employment figures note immigrants are a larger part of labor force than ever.



Is Trump a pig? Sure. I don't care. Didn't stop some hot women from sleeping with him left and right.
I suspect that there's very little Trump could do that you would care about.


Let's not forget our beloved Bill Clinton was sticking cigar's up Monica's cha-cha while discussing peace in the middle east on the phone with Arafat.
Nobody has forgotten what Clinton did, but that was also a generation ago, and was consensual, unlike many of the accusations against Trump.


I could care less. He's a liar you say? Find me one politician that isn't.
There's a difference between normal politician speak, and a daily deluge of direct and unrepentant lies. More to the point, theyre not even good at it.



They all sell their souls long before they move up the political ladder. I have never looked at a president as the guy to steer my moral compass. He is there to make sure the economy is doing well and to defend this country. Beyond that, you are making him out to be more than what he is.
Engaging in trade wars, tanking nuclear agreements, personally attacking allies, and threatening nuclear war are usually poor routes to the things you appear to value here.


** Children separated at the border from their parents who are braking the law? Here's a novel idea: don't break the law. If I rob a liquor store with my kid in the car, and get busted on the way home, is the law going to keep the kid and me together while I am in jail? No. And some of you want to give them special treatment? They broke the law, now they can go through the process like any other criminal. Sucks for the kids tho, I will admit, but lets point most of the blame on their parents, where it belongs.
Context matters. We dont take peoples kids away for committing misdemeanor crimes. When we do take them away, there has to be a reason beyond that, and, more to the point, there are systems in place to reunite those families.

Such is not the case with the border separations. Also, people seeking asylum are being actively turned away from ports of entry, theyre not being given the option to enter legally.



** I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right. I am not racist, sexist, or anything else liberals like to use on Trump supporters. And I didn't even vote for the guy. But just about everyone in my family did. So yes, I resent that label of 'basket of deplorables'.
Well, your statements here dont seem to be doing anything to dispell that. You're post has been one long chain of excuses for literally anything Trump does, or statements about how much you dont care.



Its astonishing to me that many of the servicemen and women who are defending America's interest around the world are thrown into that basket too.
in what way? Beyond some idiots tumblr.


And then you have Bill Maher hoping for a recession so Trump loses? Of course he does, cause he know Trump will win re-election because the democrats haven't a single candidate to lead them. All liberals can do is hope Trump fails. Which is absolutely crazy and damn near treasonous to me.
This was point blank the role of the GOP during the entire Obama administration, like...openly. They werent subtle about it.


The last thing I want to see is Americans lose their jobs, families to suffer, etc, so my choice of candidate can take office.
Your post thus far would appear to indicate otherwise...

In fact, there appears to be a lot of "as long as it pisses off the liberals, i dont care".


So all those who bash the right and Trump should spend some time checking out what is coming from the left. Its pretty poisonous too.

Some of it absolutely is. However by and large these are fringe opinions, Maher for instance holds no office and is not a member of the Democratic party, and is actually pretty all over the map politically, usually describing himself as a small "l" libertarian. You dont see Schumer out there rooting for America to fail just to spite Trump.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:43:38


Post by: Togusa


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?


The economy is not that great, we have rampant drug and substance abuse problems and a very complex rising set of social and racial problems. We have students in possession of record debt, and a man child for a president praising violent dictators and waging trade wars with both allies and enemies alike all the while both parties sit and gawk, unsure of what to do or how to proceed on anything. We have a massively broken healthcare system, and most people are not seeing monetary increases in their salaries, even though the upperclass are seeing their record stocks.

Other than that everything is great!



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:45:24


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.


That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:45:42


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
I really do not care what Obama did or didn't do. What i care about is what is happening now, and what I can do to stop it.

Stop the whataboutism!

Only Republicans can do anything about it NOW because they are the only ones with control of the reins of the Federal givernment. If you are not asking your Senator and Representative to take action to stop the seperation, you are empowering it and complicit. It is that black and white.


I can get behind this notion. I like the idea of some of our posters being complicit in this. I've already had a sitdown today with my senator.


It's been awhile since anyone I voted for won an election.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 21:52:04


Post by: Whirlwind


 cuda1179 wrote:
 Whirlwind wrote:

This is a view on how things started in 1933 in a certain country. It's definitely worth a read as a comparison to todays events.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1008724417470521344.html


Oh for the love of God, you know the thread has jumped the shark when someone whips out the Nazi parallels. Disingenuous at best.


Are you sure? The problem here is that folks jump to the last stage and think there are no parallels because it isn't like what the Nazi's did. The problem being is that it didn't start as it ended. It started with what a lot of people thought was OK, that people were criminalised for relatively minor infractions. If you compare what was happening in earlier 1930's history in Germany to what is happening here, there are unhappy parallels.
Humans looking for a better life are being criminalised for effectively entering the country because there is an opposition to "immigration". They are then being interred in temporary camps, children separated from families etc until something more permanent can be set up. There is no inevitability that things will end in the same way, but the methods being employed are similar but never will be identical.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:03:19


Post by: Togusa


 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.


That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?


I can't argue this with you because I don't know anything about it. I don't know what these detention centers are like, how the people are treated and what the eventual conclusion is. I can only be responsible for what I do, not what everyone else does.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:09:26


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?


The economy is not that great, we have rampant drug and substance abuse problems and a very complex rising set of social and racial problems. We have students in possession of record debt, and a man child for a president praising violent dictators and waging trade wars with both allies and enemies alike all the while both parties sit and gawk, unsure of what to do or how to proceed on anything. We have a massively broken healthcare system, and most people are not seeing monetary increases in their salaries, even though the upperclass are seeing their record stocks.

Other than that everything is great!


Between unemployment being at its lowest since 2000, a record streak of 91 months of consecutive job growth, the US economy having more growth momentum than predicted and having one of the longest growth periods in history since 2009 I would say its doing pretty well wouldn't you say? Well, besides Trump trying to undermine it with his hobby of the week.

All of these issues you mention are in no way, shape or form caused by immigrants (edit: I in no way, shape or form want to imply that Togusa said immigrants caused this). They have been playing for a long time now. Some of these issues could easily be tackled if money was budgeted away towards tackling these problems instead of giving tax cuts to the rich. The US is in a much better condition now then when illegal border crossings were 4 to 5 times higher, so why the heavy handed approach now?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:19:32


Post by: Easy E


 Togusa wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.


That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?


I can't argue this with you because I don't know anything about it. I don't know what these detention centers are like, how the people are treated and what the eventual conclusion is. I can only be responsible for what I do, not what everyone else does.


I agree. So are you asking your Representative/Senator to stop the seperations?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:20:05


Post by: Togusa


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.

The current state of having a great economy with illegal border crossing at a decades long low point?


The economy is not that great, we have rampant drug and substance abuse problems and a very complex rising set of social and racial problems. We have students in possession of record debt, and a man child for a president praising violent dictators and waging trade wars with both allies and enemies alike all the while both parties sit and gawk, unsure of what to do or how to proceed on anything. We have a massively broken healthcare system, and most people are not seeing monetary increases in their salaries, even though the upperclass are seeing their record stocks.

Other than that everything is great!


Between unemployment being at its lowest since 2000, a record streak of 91 months of consecutive job growth, the US economy having more growth momentum than predicted and having one of the longest growth periods in history since 2009 I would say its doing pretty well wouldn't you say?

All of these issues you mention are in no way, shape or form caused by immigrants. These issues could easily be tackled if money was budgeted away towards tackling these problems instead of giving tax cuts to the rich. The US is in a much better condition now then when illegal border crossings were 4 to 5 times higher, so why the heavy handed approach now?


I did not claim they were caused by immigrants. I said they were problems our nation faces.

The job numbers are what you say. I still have seen no relief in my family, or my communities lives. We're still limping along as are 99% of people I personally know. If it changes 1-2 years down the road, great! But for now, I am still struggling to get buy as much as I was in December of 2014, March of 2015 and June of 2016, as well as December 2017.

The issues that I mention cannot be solved by money. We've been throwing money at problems and waging "wars on things" for decades with little to show.

Drugs: Can't be fixed until we recognize that abuse is a medical issue and that these people belong in a hospital and not a prison.

We've more or less been at war for the last 70 some odd years in this country, moving from nation to nation sucking up resources and leaving only death in our wake.

Our politicians are corrupted and our population is lazy, devoid of the basic ability to reason. They don't even vote!

Racial issues will not be solved by money, these issues cannot be solved by a government. It is up to the society as a whole to correct these attitudes. Governments can put more restrictions and training on police and local agencies, but that won't do anything to control the skin head that lives down the street and works at the local mill.

Student debt issues were caused by government intrusion into the higher education system and the garuntee of FAFSA loans. ( I can provide more on this if you like as it is related to my actual job, and I am a victim of this issue as well personally.)

Healthcare also cannot be solely changed by throwing money at the problem. The society and the insurance groups have just as much influence and power as the actual government agencies and laws that police health in the US.

Also, I stated what I have heard from supporters of the presidents policy for the children. I did not state that I agreed with it, or supported it.

Also: I believe the heavy handed response now is designed to draw attention away from other high profile stories related to the president. It's calculated tail wagging to take attention away from Stormy Daniels, North Korea's Human Rights Violations and the Iranian Nuclear deal as well as the trade war.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

Really, an either or fallacy? Tsk tsk tsk.


A fallacy would imply that he's wrong. In this case, he's only applying the same standards that we use to execute war criminals.

Besides, as the old saying goes: all that's needed for evil to win is that good men do nothing.


Seems cheap to blame people who are on the fence, and under educated about the situation. The fact of the matter is that people are coming here in mass, illegally. We cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state. America is a mess of problems all its own. So, by prosecuting these people, we are hopping to send a strong message to others not to try and force their way into our country, but instead work hard to earn a place here as many millions of people have. This problem is comprised of dozens of other problems, and isn't that black and white in terms of how to go about setting things straight.


That is all well and good, but we don't need to be ripping kids from their parents' arms. Separating kids and allowing them to be abused within our system is not helping correct the problem.

This is not how our country should work. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, from last century with the way we treated Japanese Americans, and even earlier with how we treated indigenous Americans, but god damn we are hell bent on repeating some aspects of our worst history! Not only that, we are building on that horrible legacy by adding an intentionally cruel element like separating children from families simply as a deterrent and terror tactic to keep people away. Let that sink in. Our government is engaging in terror tactics to help fight immigration. You are okay with that?


I can't argue this with you because I don't know anything about it. I don't know what these detention centers are like, how the people are treated and what the eventual conclusion is. I can only be responsible for what I do, not what everyone else does.


I agree. So are you asking your Representative/Senator to stop the seperations?


No. I will not speak with them until I understand the basic aspects of the issue.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:27:20


Post by: d-usa


Ignorance is not an excuse.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:27:39


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Between unemployment being at its lowest since 2000, a record streak of 91 months of consecutive job growth, the US economy having more growth momentum than predicted and having one of the longest growth periods in history since 2009 I would say its doing pretty well wouldn't you say?

All of these issues you mention are in no way, shape or form caused by immigrants. These issues could easily be tackled if money was budgeted away towards tackling these problems instead of giving tax cuts to the rich. The US is in a much better condition now then when illegal border crossings were 4 to 5 times higher, so why the heavy handed approach now?


I did not claim they were caused by immigrants. I said they were problems our nation faces. Nice try.

The job numbers are what you say. I still have seen no relief in my family, or my communities lives. We're still limping along as are 99% of people I personally know. If it changes 1-2 years down the road, great! But for now, I am still struggling to get buy as much as I was in December of 2014, March of 2015 and June of 2016, as well as December 2017.

The issues that I mention cannot be solved by money. We've been throwing money at problems and waging "wars on things" for decades with little to show.

Drugs: Can't be fixed until we recognize that abuse is a medical issue and that these people belong in a hospital and not a prison.

We've more or less been at war for the last 70 some odd years in this country, moving from nation to nation sucking up resources and leaving only death in our wake.

Our politicians are corrupted and our population is lazy, devoid of the basic ability to reason. They don't even vote!

Racial issues will not be solved by money, these issues cannot be solved by a government. It is up to the society as a whole to correct these attitudes. Governments can put more restrictions and training on police and local agencies, but that won't do anything to control the skin head that lives down the street and works at the local mill.

Student debt issues were caused by government intrusion into the higher education system and the garuntee of FAFSA loans. ( I can provide more on this if you like as it is related to my actual job, and I am a victim of this issue as well personally.)

Healthcare also cannot be solely changed by throwing money at the problem. The society and the insurance groups have just as much influence and power as the actual government agencies and laws that police health in the US.

Also, I stated what I have heard from supporters of the presidents policy for the children. I did not state that I agreed with it, or supported it.

Sorry, i did not mean to imply you said that. I'm just saying that the statement that the US "cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state" is simply not true, because all these problems existed when the US economy did a lot worse and there was a far larger influx of people crossing the border, with the US surviving just fine.

What you are describing is tragic, but the only reason that that is going the way it is is because of how business and society works. Whether people cross the border or not has no effect on anyone trying to solve the situation you and the people you know are in, its completely unrelated. If anything the bizarre focus on people crossing the border is diverting funds from places that could use it far more. You need structural solutions completely unrelated and unaffected by this.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:31:46


Post by: Vaktathi


Virginia and North Carolina have recalled their National Guard troops from border duties. Not that theres a lot of them, but its interesting nonetheless.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GovernorVA/status/1009138091066523648


https://mobile.twitter.com/NC_Governor/status/1009149319293915138



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:34:03


Post by: Ustrello


 Vaktathi wrote:
Virginia and North Carolina have recalled their National Guard troops from border duties. Not that theres a lot of them, but its interesting nonetheless.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GovernorVA/status/1009138091066523648


https://mobile.twitter.com/NC_Governor/status/1009149319293915138



How many national guardsmen were deployed to the border? Because between the two states that is 7 guardsmen and 1 helicopter or less than 200 points in warhammer


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:34:15


Post by: Togusa


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Between unemployment being at its lowest since 2000, a record streak of 91 months of consecutive job growth, the US economy having more growth momentum than predicted and having one of the longest growth periods in history since 2009 I would say its doing pretty well wouldn't you say?

All of these issues you mention are in no way, shape or form caused by immigrants. These issues could easily be tackled if money was budgeted away towards tackling these problems instead of giving tax cuts to the rich. The US is in a much better condition now then when illegal border crossings were 4 to 5 times higher, so why the heavy handed approach now?


I did not claim they were caused by immigrants. I said they were problems our nation faces. Nice try.

The job numbers are what you say. I still have seen no relief in my family, or my communities lives. We're still limping along as are 99% of people I personally know. If it changes 1-2 years down the road, great! But for now, I am still struggling to get buy as much as I was in December of 2014, March of 2015 and June of 2016, as well as December 2017.

The issues that I mention cannot be solved by money. We've been throwing money at problems and waging "wars on things" for decades with little to show.

Drugs: Can't be fixed until we recognize that abuse is a medical issue and that these people belong in a hospital and not a prison.

We've more or less been at war for the last 70 some odd years in this country, moving from nation to nation sucking up resources and leaving only death in our wake.

Our politicians are corrupted and our population is lazy, devoid of the basic ability to reason. They don't even vote!

Racial issues will not be solved by money, these issues cannot be solved by a government. It is up to the society as a whole to correct these attitudes. Governments can put more restrictions and training on police and local agencies, but that won't do anything to control the skin head that lives down the street and works at the local mill.

Student debt issues were caused by government intrusion into the higher education system and the garuntee of FAFSA loans. ( I can provide more on this if you like as it is related to my actual job, and I am a victim of this issue as well personally.)

Healthcare also cannot be solely changed by throwing money at the problem. The society and the insurance groups have just as much influence and power as the actual government agencies and laws that police health in the US.

Also, I stated what I have heard from supporters of the presidents policy for the children. I did not state that I agreed with it, or supported it.

Sorry, i did not mean to imply you said that. I'm just saying that the statement that the US "cannot handle this influx of refugees in our current state" is simply not true, because all these problems existed when the US economy did a lot worse and there was a far larger influx of people crossing the border, with the US surviving just fine.

What you are describing is tragic, but the only reason that that is going the way it is is because of how business and society works. Whether people cross the border or not has no effect on anyone trying to solve the situation you and the people you know are in, its completely unrelated. If anything the bizarre focus on people crossing the border is diverting funds from places that could use it far more. You need structural solutions completely unrelated and unaffected by this.


No problem, I actually only wanted to state that I did not imply that. I will remove the "nice try" sarcasm from the post.

I don't know if it is unrelated. If our nation faces very serious problems, how can we be expected to take on the problems of neighbor nations and not see a dramatic drop int he quality of life for our own citizens, especially those most vulnerable who will now have to compete with illegals for what little government services exist?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:39:46


Post by: d-usa


To quote a sexual predator:



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:40:07


Post by: Vaktathi


 Ustrello wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Virginia and North Carolina have recalled their National Guard troops from border duties. Not that theres a lot of them, but its interesting nonetheless.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GovernorVA/status/1009138091066523648


https://mobile.twitter.com/NC_Governor/status/1009149319293915138



How many national guardsmen were deployed to the border? Because between the two states that is 7 guardsmen and 1 helicopter or less than 200 points in warhammer
That appears to be it, but its more a major political stick in the eye, and will make federalization of the NG a wee bit more awkward if Trump was thinking that.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:49:57


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Togusa wrote:

No problem, I actually only wanted to state that I did not imply that. I will remove the "nice try" sarcasm from the post.

I don't know if it is unrelated. If our nation faces very serious problems, how can we be expected to take on the problems of neighbor nations and not see a dramatic drop int he quality of life for our own citizens, especially those most vulnerable who will now have to compete with illegals for what little government services exist?

No need, its sometimes hard to accurately convey what people are trying to say, with my quick writing style not always helping.

As to the compete part, that is hard to say. Most end up paying taxes while not being able to access the full range of services available to citizens. But the situation is never going to be improved if politics carries on as usual. Illegal border crossings in the south have been steadily decreasing, yet the issues remain. If there is competition for services, its more of an expression of government failing the people. Illegal immigrants crossing like this represent only a fraction of the yearly increase in population (1/4th of legal migration and 1/12th of births), if that puts the system under that much pressure its a political issue.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:53:38


Post by: Mario


KTG17 wrote:** I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right. I am not racist, sexist, or anything else liberals like to use on Trump supporters. And I didn't even vote for the guy. But just about everyone in my family did. So yes, I resent that label of 'basket of deplorables'. Its astonishing to me that many of the servicemen and women who are defending America's interest around the world are thrown into that basket too. And then you have Bill Maher hoping for a recession so Trump loses? Of course he does, cause he knows Trump will win re-election because the democrats haven't a single candidate to lead them. All liberals can do is hope Trump fails. Which is absolutely crazy and damn near treasonous to me. The last thing I want to see is Americans lose their jobs, families to suffer, etc, so my choice of candidate can take office.

So all those who bash the right and Trump should spend some time checking out what is coming from the left. Its pretty poisonous too.
Nobody's doing that to you, you are choosing to align yourself with Trump and those people. That's a choice you made, nobody forced you into it. Take responsibility for your own actions.

That aside: How come the extreme right isn't pushing you to the left? Are you just conveniently ignoring them—and if that's the case why can't you do the same for the extreme left—or do you actually sympathise with their hateful rhetoric?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 22:54:26


Post by: Togusa


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

No problem, I actually only wanted to state that I did not imply that. I will remove the "nice try" sarcasm from the post.

I don't know if it is unrelated. If our nation faces very serious problems, how can we be expected to take on the problems of neighbor nations and not see a dramatic drop int he quality of life for our own citizens, especially those most vulnerable who will now have to compete with illegals for what little government services exist?

No need, its sometimes hard to accurately convey what people are trying to say, with my quick writing style not always helping.

As to the compete part, that is hard to say. Most end up paying taxes while not being able to access the full range of services available to citizens. But the situation is never going to be improved if politics carries on as usual. Illegal border crossings in the south have been steadily decreasing, yet the issues remain. If there is competition for services, its more of an expression of government failing the people. Illegal immigrants crossing like this represent only a fraction of the yearly increase in population (1/4th of legal migration and 1/12th of births), if that puts the system under that much pressure its a political issue.


Well it actually speaks volumes to some of the issues I was talking about, how hateful we are becoming to one another, all due to the general decline of our countries society.

Some questions I think really need to be pressed on the White House. One in particular is why the influx of illegals? If we could ever get a president and congress to admit that Mexico is in dire need of help, both financially and from a military position, we might be able to get something done.

We know the Rangers and the Seals could wipe out most of the leadership of these cartels that flood this region with violence and drugs. After they're gone, it's only a matter of fighting the corruption (half of that job would be already done) and building an economy for Mexico. In 40-60 years it could be a paradise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mario wrote:
KTG17 wrote:** I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right. I am not racist, sexist, or anything else liberals like to use on Trump supporters. And I didn't even vote for the guy. But just about everyone in my family did. So yes, I resent that label of 'basket of deplorables'. Its astonishing to me that many of the servicemen and women who are defending America's interest around the world are thrown into that basket too. And then you have Bill Maher hoping for a recession so Trump loses? Of course he does, cause he knows Trump will win re-election because the democrats haven't a single candidate to lead them. All liberals can do is hope Trump fails. Which is absolutely crazy and damn near treasonous to me. The last thing I want to see is Americans lose their jobs, families to suffer, etc, so my choice of candidate can take office.

So all those who bash the right and Trump should spend some time checking out what is coming from the left. Its pretty poisonous too.
Nobody's doing that to you, you are choosing to align yourself with Trump and those people. That's a choice you made, nobody forced you into it. Take responsibility for your own actions.

That aside: How come the extreme right isn't pushing you to the left? Are you just conveniently ignoring them—and if that's the case why can't you do the same for the extreme left—or do you actually sympathise with their hateful rhetoric?


Wait, isn't he complaining about the literal same thing that was done by the Republicans during Obama's tenure? I remember vividly hearing Everyone from McConnell to Hannity and Limbaugh dictating that repubs fight Obama even if it destroy's america.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:14:58


Post by: Vulcan


 oldravenman3025 wrote:
Nobody has yet to convince me that being required to show a driver's license, military ID, or State identification card is an infringment on anybody's rights. Maybe on the voting rights of people now residing in my local graveyard perhaps. But not among living, citizens that haven't lost the right due to disqualifying categories (such as convicted felons).


State offices which issue official identifications are only open limited hours, and are often inconveniently placed for people who do not own cars. If you work a crummy job, getting time off to renew is often a huge issue, especially if you don't have a car and wind up walking a mile or more from the nearest mass-transit stop. And heaven help the poor person without a car who has illness or injuries that make such a walk difficult, if not impossible. Say, an elderly person on very limited income who is no longer physically capable of driving, or a vet who was blinded in action and cannot find work he's qualified for...

Now add into that the occasional state that closes a lot of DMV offices near areas where one party's voters are concentrated, and the only place to get an ID is now located several miles into a very affluent neighborhood... and imagine the reaction of the police in that very affluent neighborhood when lots of poor people come strolling down the road.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:21:19


Post by: Ustrello


 Vulcan wrote:
 oldravenman3025 wrote:
Nobody has yet to convince me that being required to show a driver's license, military ID, or State identification card is an infringment on anybody's rights. Maybe on the voting rights of people now residing in my local graveyard perhaps. But not among living, citizens that haven't lost the right due to disqualifying categories (such as convicted felons).


State offices which issue official identifications are only open limited hours, and are often inconveniently placed for people who do not own cars. If you work a crummy job, getting time off to renew is often a huge issue, especially if you don't have a car and wind up walking a mile or more from the nearest mass-transit stop. And heaven help the poor person without a car who has illness or injuries that make such a walk difficult, if not impossible. Say, an elderly person on very limited income who is no longer physically capable of driving, or a vet who was blinded in action and cannot find work he's qualified for...

Now add into that the occasional state that closes a lot of DMV offices near areas where one party's voters are concentrated, and the only place to get an ID is now located several miles into a very affluent neighborhood... and imagine the reaction of the police in that very affluent neighborhood when lots of poor people come strolling down the road.



Or even the fact that a judge said it was unconstitutional


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:23:37


Post by: Vulcan


 Spinner wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
As many of you know, I am a small business owner in a rural upper midwest town. I am a "Job-Creator" for about 20+ peope. I am far away from the Mexican border, so far in fact that I can drive to Canada in less than a day.

about 60 days ago, my best worker was pulled over for a violation. She was arrested and then sent to an immigration holding facility. Within 60 days she was deported to Mexico without even getting a day in court or an attorney.

She had been a resident since she was 1. She was not very good at speaking Spanish, as English was her native language. She has two kids who are now stranded in our state as the father has been out of the picture and in Texas.
She was employed, a hard worker, paid taxes, had HS degree, and saving up money for a house. Now, she is in a strange land where she knows no one and can barely speak the language.

We have many Mexican and Hispanic residents and business owners in my community. They are scared that at any moment someone can come, accuse them of a crime, have their kids taken from them, and shipped to Mexico without any recourse. She only had the clothes on her back and the money in her pocket when she was arrested.

I used to think this was hyperbole, until I saw it happen to my own friend. Each of them has a similar story.

I thought I knew and understood what it meant to be an American and the values we stood for as a society. In the last two years, what I thought I knew has been proven wrong to me..... many, many times in the last 2 years.

I don't know who "started it" and I do not care. All I want is for it to stop. The only ones who can stop it right now are Republicans, as they control all three branches of the Federal government, and the Legislature of my state. They are the only ones who can stop it, and this "Paper Please" reign of terror. If they can or won't stop it, I will support with time, money, efforts, and votes for those who can.

That is what this issues means to me. It is no longer an abstract concept. My friends and fellow "Job-creators" are scared, my friends and workers have been deported, the families of my friends have been shattered and their communities broken up. I do not know what is or is not legal, or who is responsible, but I can clearly see that the effects of these policies are not the American values I thought I understood.


I literally don't believe this story.Either she was telling a story or you are telling a story.


Why?


You already know why.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:33:28


Post by: Ouze


 KTG17 wrote:
I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right.


"I had to vote for Trump because liberals were mean to me" - the rallying cry of the Party of Personal Responsibility.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:33:36


Post by: Vulcan


 Frazzled wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Yes, at this point the GOP holds the presidency, both houses of congress, and a majority on the SCOTUS, which is why it's especially execrable when the democrats are randomly getting blamed for stuff (like the lie about them being responsible for child separation).

Even if it were true (and it's not), the GOP literally holds every level of power currently. They have never seemed to be able to move past the aggrieved language of minority losers into actually governing. Even now, it's a near daily tired of persecution and unjustness straight from the twitter feed of the POTUS. The election is long over and they don't seem to realize they won.


Yes. At this point I am ok with that. Waiting on changing fates to bring in better people. The US cycles. We are in a low point. That will change.


At this point we're not really all that low. Things can get a lot worse. Whether they will or not depends on what happens in the next couple elections. If politicians continue to double-down on the "us vs. them" mentality instead of a "United States" mentality, we're going to prove Ben Franklin's famous quote and, indeed, hang separately.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:37:30


Post by: Ustrello


 Ouze wrote:
 KTG17 wrote:
I used to consider myself a wavy line between both parties and proudly stated I was an independent, but I am so sick of liberals and the extreme/elitist left that it's pushing me to the right.


"I had to vote for Trump because liberals were mean to me" - the rallying cry of the Party of Personal Responsibility.


Snowflake party 2020


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:52:01


Post by: d-usa


A prevalent complaint against the Democratic Party has been that they spend to much time embracing identity politics. But at the same time embracing identity politics seems to be the focus of the Trump Administration, and the GOP is switching their principles to do the same.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:53:08


Post by: whembly


 d-usa wrote:
A prevalent complaint against the Democratic Party has been that they spend to much time embracing identity politics. But at the same time embracing identity politics seems to be the focus of the Trump Administration, and the GOP is switching their principles to do the same.

Huh? I don't quite follow...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Yes, at this point the GOP holds the presidency, both houses of congress, and a majority on the SCOTUS, which is why it's especially execrable when the democrats are randomly getting blamed for stuff (like the lie about them being responsible for child separation).

Even if it were true (and it's not), the GOP literally holds every level of power currently. They have never seemed to be able to move past the aggrieved language of minority losers into actually governing. Even now, it's a near daily tired of persecution and unjustness straight from the twitter feed of the POTUS. The election is long over and they don't seem to realize they won.


Yes. At this point I am ok with that. Waiting on changing fates to bring in better people. The US cycles. We are in a low point. That will change.


At this point we're not really all that low. Things can get a lot worse. Whether they will or not depends on what happens in the next couple elections. If politicians continue to double-down on the "us vs. them" mentality instead of a "United States" mentality, we're going to prove Ben Franklin's famous quote and, indeed, hang separately.

It's been "us vs. them" for as long as I can remember... progressively getting worst too (compounded by social media).

We've hit bottom man... anyone worst than Trump (or HRC for that matter) is scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

Time for some new blood... stat.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/19 23:56:08


Post by: Dreadclaw69


 d-usa wrote:
A prevalent complaint against the Democratic Party has been that they spend to much time embracing identity politics. But at the same time embracing identity politics seems to be the focus of the Trump Administration, and the GOP is switching their principles to do the same.

Maybe this is the parties about to switch positions again.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 00:35:00


Post by: BaronIveagh


 whembly wrote:

Do you have citation for that?

If you're going to the border entry, or other port of entries (ie, US consulate, airports, etc...) and claim asylum, then no laws are broken. Are you saying in this scenario, every kid is being separated?

I think there's a awful lot of conflation between those who legally follow the law vs those who illegally enter the country and then claim asylum when caught.


Earlier I linked to ACLU's current case file on it, but am A bit busy atm to sort through the thread, even though it's not long atm.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 00:38:05


Post by: Wolfblade


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Do you have citation for that?

If you're going to the border entry, or other port of entries (ie, US consulate, airports, etc...) and claim asylum, then no laws are broken. Are you saying in this scenario, every kid is being separated?

I think there's a awful lot of conflation between those who legally follow the law vs those who illegally enter the country and then claim asylum when caught.


Earlier I linked to ACLU's current case file on it, but am A bit busy atm to sort through the thread, even though it's not long atm.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/ice-separates-18-month-old-mother-months


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 01:10:34


Post by: whembly


*okay, I'll read that aclu case in a bit*

So... to those who keep saying that the GOP has unbridled power to pass whatever they need to "fix" the issues of the day?

Democrats need to play ball too:
Guy Benson

@guypbenson
Top Senate Dem preemptively comes out against all GOP proposals on family separation issue. “Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.”

Rejecting compromise solutions looks cynical amid humanitarian crisis. Is this about the kids, or Trump? http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis

3:45 PM - Jun 19, 2018




US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 01:20:59


Post by: d-usa


Did the Democrats take the majority without anyone noticing?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 01:21:30


Post by: Wolfblade


 whembly wrote:
*okay, I'll read that aclu case in a bit*

So... to those who keep saying that the GOP has unbridled power to pass whatever they need to "fix" the issues of the day?

Democrats need to play ball too:
Guy Benson

@guypbenson
Top Senate Dem preemptively comes out against all GOP proposals on family separation issue. “Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.”

Rejecting compromise solutions looks cynical amid humanitarian crisis. Is this about the kids, or Trump? http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis

3:45 PM - Jun 19, 2018




from your article:

"Again, the president can change it with his pen,” he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor.
“Unacceptable additions have bogged down every piece of legislation we’ve done,” he said."

On top of that, Republicans have the majority, they don't need the democrats help currently to pass anything. Also Guy Benson is also a fox news contributor, worked for Andrew Breitbart, and wrote for national review. Excuse me while I take anything he says with a couple pounds of salt considering he has worked for some of the most biased "news" sites/organizations ever, and working for any one of those is a pretty big red flag to credibility, trustworthiness or factual correctness.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 01:26:29


Post by: d-usa


The thing is, both the Senate and the House have a bill that is bipartisan and has the votes to pass both chambers.

The GOP is refusing to allow a vote on those bills because Trump said no.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:13:33


Post by: whembly


 d-usa wrote:
Did the Democrats take the majority without anyone noticing?

Are you ignoring the fact that the Senate needs 60 votes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
*okay, I'll read that aclu case in a bit*

So... to those who keep saying that the GOP has unbridled power to pass whatever they need to "fix" the issues of the day?

Democrats need to play ball too:
Guy Benson

@guypbenson
Top Senate Dem preemptively comes out against all GOP proposals on family separation issue. “Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.”

Rejecting compromise solutions looks cynical amid humanitarian crisis. Is this about the kids, or Trump? http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis

3:45 PM - Jun 19, 2018




from your article:

"Again, the president can change it with his pen,” he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor.
“Unacceptable additions have bogged down every piece of legislation we’ve done,” he said."

On top of that, Republicans have the majority, they don't need the democrats help currently to pass anything. Also Guy Benson is also a fox news contributor, worked for Andrew Breitbart, and wrote for national review. Excuse me while I take anything he says with a couple pounds of salt considering he has worked for some of the most biased "news" sites/organizations ever, and working for any one of those is a pretty big red flag to credibility, trustworthiness or factual correctness.

The GOP can't pass bills like this by themselves... they need enough Democrats to reach 60 votes.

And no, the President can't change laws on the books... that's what Obama did with DACA/DAPA.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:29:11


Post by: Ustrello


Except you have been ignoring the fact that there are bipartisan bills with support but the GOP leadership is refusing a vote


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:38:55


Post by: whembly


 Ustrello wrote:
Except you have been ignoring the fact that there are bipartisan bills with support but the GOP leadership is refusing a vote

You talking about those immigration reform bills?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:42:46


Post by: Wolfblade


 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Did the Democrats take the majority without anyone noticing?

Are you ignoring the fact that the Senate needs 60 votes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
*okay, I'll read that aclu case in a bit*

So... to those who keep saying that the GOP has unbridled power to pass whatever they need to "fix" the issues of the day?

Democrats need to play ball too:
Guy Benson

@guypbenson
Top Senate Dem preemptively comes out against all GOP proposals on family separation issue. “Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.”

Rejecting compromise solutions looks cynical amid humanitarian crisis. Is this about the kids, or Trump? http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis

3:45 PM - Jun 19, 2018




from your article:

"Again, the president can change it with his pen,” he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor.
“Unacceptable additions have bogged down every piece of legislation we’ve done,” he said."

On top of that, Republicans have the majority, they don't need the democrats help currently to pass anything. Also Guy Benson is also a fox news contributor, worked for Andrew Breitbart, and wrote for national review. Excuse me while I take anything he says with a couple pounds of salt considering he has worked for some of the most biased "news" sites/organizations ever, and working for any one of those is a pretty big red flag to credibility, trustworthiness or factual correctness.

The GOP can't pass bills like this by themselves... they need enough Democrats to reach 60 votes.

And no, the President can't change laws on the books... that's what Obama did with DACA/DAPA.


Wrong, you need 60 to end a filibuster or force a vote on the bill, otherwise just a majority to pass said bill.

Also nice to see you avoid the stuff about your source being literal garbage.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:44:21


Post by: whembly


 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Did the Democrats take the majority without anyone noticing?

Are you ignoring the fact that the Senate needs 60 votes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
*okay, I'll read that aclu case in a bit*

So... to those who keep saying that the GOP has unbridled power to pass whatever they need to "fix" the issues of the day?

Democrats need to play ball too:
Guy Benson

@guypbenson
Top Senate Dem preemptively comes out against all GOP proposals on family separation issue. “Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.”

Rejecting compromise solutions looks cynical amid humanitarian crisis. Is this about the kids, or Trump? http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis

3:45 PM - Jun 19, 2018




from your article:

"Again, the president can change it with his pen,” he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor.
“Unacceptable additions have bogged down every piece of legislation we’ve done,” he said."

On top of that, Republicans have the majority, they don't need the democrats help currently to pass anything. Also Guy Benson is also a fox news contributor, worked for Andrew Breitbart, and wrote for national review. Excuse me while I take anything he says with a couple pounds of salt considering he has worked for some of the most biased "news" sites/organizations ever, and working for any one of those is a pretty big red flag to credibility, trustworthiness or factual correctness.

The GOP can't pass bills like this by themselves... they need enough Democrats to reach 60 votes.

And no, the President can't change laws on the books... that's what Obama did with DACA/DAPA.


Wrong, you need 60 to end a filibuster, otherwise just a majority.


So you think the Democrats "won't" filibuster?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:45:37


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 whembly wrote:

So you think the Democrats "won't" filibuster?

Does that matter? At least they'll be trying. And if they do then it's the D's fault (or at least that's the perception).


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:45:44


Post by: Wolfblade


 whembly wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Did the Democrats take the majority without anyone noticing?

Are you ignoring the fact that the Senate needs 60 votes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
*okay, I'll read that aclu case in a bit*

So... to those who keep saying that the GOP has unbridled power to pass whatever they need to "fix" the issues of the day?

Democrats need to play ball too:
Guy Benson

@guypbenson
Top Senate Dem preemptively comes out against all GOP proposals on family separation issue. “Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.”

Rejecting compromise solutions looks cynical amid humanitarian crisis. Is this about the kids, or Trump? http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis

3:45 PM - Jun 19, 2018




from your article:

"Again, the president can change it with his pen,” he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor.
“Unacceptable additions have bogged down every piece of legislation we’ve done,” he said."

On top of that, Republicans have the majority, they don't need the democrats help currently to pass anything. Also Guy Benson is also a fox news contributor, worked for Andrew Breitbart, and wrote for national review. Excuse me while I take anything he says with a couple pounds of salt considering he has worked for some of the most biased "news" sites/organizations ever, and working for any one of those is a pretty big red flag to credibility, trustworthiness or factual correctness.

The GOP can't pass bills like this by themselves... they need enough Democrats to reach 60 votes.

And no, the President can't change laws on the books... that's what Obama did with DACA/DAPA.


Wrong, you need 60 to end a filibuster, otherwise just a majority.


So you think the Democrats "won't" filibuster?


Filibusters used to be the exception, not the rule. But ignoring that, the bill has bipartisan support, except for trump. It'd pass if trump was willing to sign it.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:46:20


Post by: whembly


 Wolfblade wrote:

Also nice to see you avoid the stuff about your source being literal garbage.

Ah... no attempt for sincere dialogue? Cool... <hits ignore button>


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:47:31


Post by: Wolfblade


 whembly wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:

Also nice to see you avoid the stuff about your source being literal garbage.

Ah... no attempt for sincere dialogue? Cool... <hits ignore button>

Ahhh, ok. So calling you out for using a bad source (i.e. fox news, breitbart) is bad and wrong and not looking for a discussion, but actually using fox or breitbart in an attempt to bash a party is an attempt at discussion? Really?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 02:48:22


Post by: whembly


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 whembly wrote:

So you think the Democrats "won't" filibuster?

Does that matter? At least they'll be trying. And if they do then it's the D's fault (or at least that's the perception).

Yeah it matters. There's only so much bandwidth the Senate has to allow for passage of some bills, and if the other side signals that its a no-go, then a decision need to be made to move forward and hope there's a political cost, or use the bandwidth on other bills that has a chance of passing.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 03:11:53


Post by: tneva82


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Ironic the timing of leaving the human rights council with the border debacle going on.


Why? With all the human right violating US does why would they want to be there? US isn't "good guys". Never has been and is going even worse all the time.

This keeps up and NK will be paragon of virtues soon compared to US...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheMeanDM wrote:
As I said on my personal fb account:

How are we to be a beacon for all that is good and right in the world when we purposefully and intentionally surrender our place in history as a just and moral leader in the free world?

I never dreamed of a day when we would abandon the noble vision of human rights and equality for all peoples, but I fear that with the withdrawal of the US from the Human Rights Council we have turned a dream into a nightmare and snuffed out a sorely needed light in this darkening world. The repercussions of this ill conceived action will, I fear, trigger more pain and suffering in a world that already sees far too much of each.


Who says US was that beacon in the first place? Bully using biggest guns isn't beacon for good and right.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 03:14:35


Post by: d-usa


Democrats are going to filibuster a bill that has the support of Democratic Senators AND GOP Senators that has 60+ votes before Trump opposes it?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 03:16:33


Post by: Ouze


 whembly wrote:
So you think the Democrats "won't" filibuster?


I think it's a moot point (and shameless goalpost moving to boot) since GOP leadership won't allow anything to make it to the floor.


Trump could end this tomorrow if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to.

The GOP could end this tomorrow if they wanted to via legislation, but they won't, because Trump doesn't want to.

The Democrats have no real power to influence this process since they don't have any political power, but that won't stop Trump and the GOP from cravenly blaming them anyway on reasons wholly imaginary in nature, and the loyal footsoldiers from willingly embracing obvious lies because, of course, partisanship is strong.




US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 05:01:49


Post by: whembly


I will concede that there are solutions to this. Not easy... but definitely doable.

Both bills are still "on track" at the House for additional amendments and votes.

Not sure where Cruz's bill at... but, Schumer not supporting a "clean bill" reminds me of his favorite GOP criticism... Hostage Takers. I agree with Co'tor... GOP need to call Schumer’s bluff. Advance this bill and see if Democrats filibuster.

Hey remember this border hawk in 2014? Saying "We have to send a clear message, just because your child gets across the border doesn’t mean your child gets to stay. We don’t want to send a message contrary to our laws or encourage more to come"
Spoiler:


I mean... seriously. The internet is truly amazing...






US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 06:15:08


Post by: lonestarr777


Hillary lost. No one wanted her, on either side. We get it. You hate her.

This. Changes. NOTHING.

Oh no in an alternate dimension where Hillary won because when you get less votes in an election you lose in bizzaro world, she'd do the same thing right? Is that the point?

This is beyond aggravating. Whataboutism is the biggest garbage logic I have ever seen. This is gak a five year old pulls. You walk in the living room and Jimmy is peeing on the carpet in the corner, when you yell at him he shrugs and says "Well Mikey stole some cookies yesterday." It doesn't matter. Jimmy is peeing on the carpet right now, because Mikey did something stupid doesn't excuse it. Bad behavior is bad behavior, period!


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 07:28:00


Post by: Ouze


 whembly wrote:
I will concede that there are solutions to this. Not easy... but definitely doable.


First off, it's very, very easy, because this is a Trump policy that was rolled out informally a month ago. He could end it this morning with a single phone call and go back to how he, himself, was administering this policy 2 months ago. That's the very definition of easy. Yes, a long term fix needs to be done by Congress. Guess who is also responsible for that?

The election is over. Hillary Clinton lost. The GOP holds the house, the senate, the presidency, and a majority of the SCOTUS, and have done so for a year and a half. At some point you need to hold your party responsible for the fact they're actually in charge of the country now, and have been for some time.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 11:24:16


Post by: d-usa


Why is the whole “unaccompanied minors =/= accompanied minors” thing so damn complicated?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 12:26:00


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 d-usa wrote:
Why is the whole “unaccompanied minors =/= accompanied minors” thing so damn complicated?


For the same reason that "is not explicitly disallowed from doing thing" =/= "should do or is good idea to do said thing" is.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 12:27:33


Post by: Tannhauser42


 d-usa wrote:
Why is the whole “unaccompanied minors =/= accompanied minors” thing so damn complicated?


It's not complicated. But, to acknowledge the difference would be a threat to some of the narratives being forged.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 12:44:05


Post by: dosiere


 d-usa wrote:
A prevalent complaint against the Democratic Party has been that they spend to much time embracing identity politics. But at the same time embracing identity politics seems to be the focus of the Trump Administration, and the GOP is switching their principles to do the same.


True, and it’s a sad thing to watch happen. It appears to be an inevitable reaction to the rather unsubtle way the Democratic Party has used the tactic for years now, but I hope I’m wrong about that. On a positive note, there is definitely a shift on the right towards a more libertarian POV about social issues at the same time. I’m hoping those voices somehow counterbalance the stupid rhetoric from both sides. I cringe when I hear Trump, but not any more than when I hear someone like Maxine Waters. I’m rather sick of it all.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 13:31:20


Post by: Easy E


Last I checked, if a party did not filibuster you only needed a simple majority in the Senate to pass a bill if it was brought to a vote.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 13:41:43


Post by: Prestor Jon


 d-usa wrote:
A prevalent complaint against the Democratic Party has been that they spend to much time embracing identity politics. But at the same time embracing identity politics seems to be the focus of the Trump Administration, and the GOP is switching their principles to do the same.


Vice-signalling is the new virtue-signaling.

https://usa.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/trump-is-vice-signalling-over-immigration-and-its-going-to-work/

Call it vice-signalling. The President and Kirstjen Nielsen are making clear that, even if it means being seen to be inhuman, they are taking voter concerns about massive immigration seriously. There is a clear political upside to this, despite – or because of – the negative headlines. ‘Zero tolerance’ on illegal immigration is popular, even if some of the unpleasant consequences are not.

Time and again, we see that the media consensus on the rights and wrongs of immigration is way out of step with what the public thinks. Look at what happened in Britain, with the Windrush scandal. There it emerged that the government, in its attempts to create an inhospitable climate for illegals, had treated some longstanding Caribbean residents as unlawful. The story sucked up enormous amounts of media oxygen – more so, arguably, than it deserved, given how few Windrush residents were targeted. Everyone who was anyone agreed that the government policy was a national disgrace, unBritish, and deeply damaging to the Prime Minister. The Home Secretary had to resign.

Then a funny thing happened. In the wake of the scandal, the government outperformed expectations in local elections, and in fact ever since Theresa May has been pulling away in the polls. Well-informed British political analysts now say that her party benefitted from Windrush, since voters appreciated the toughness on immigration even to the point of being cruel. Some even suggested the government had deliberately created the fuss to vice-signal to the electorate. Vice-signalling is the opposite of virtue-signalling, which is what a lot of the commentators now shouting about the injustice of separating families are doing. Vice-signalling involves saying or doing something that others call mean in order to show how resolute you are; how unfazed you are by public and social media denunciations. It’s becoming quite the thing.



US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 13:45:33


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Easy E wrote:
Last I checked, if a party did not filibuster you only needed a simple majority in the Senate to pass a bill if it was brought to a vote.



But see, the Republican leadership in congress, who adopted a complete obstruction tactic and so filibustered anything and everything they could, cannot conceive of the Democrats not doing the same.

They seem to think that if they brought a bill into congress which said that families would not be split up at the border, with no idiotic riders attached with nothing to do with the actual issue being addressed (such as defund planned parenthood, or repeal obamacare, or remove every gun regulation in DC etc.), the democrats would filibuster it purely on the basis that it was proposed by a Republican. It doesn't even enter the equation that the other side might not behave the same way as they would.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 14:21:12


Post by: Luke_Prowler


I don't think identity politics is anything new, or is a Left thing. Think about the most commonly used phrase in politics: "Hard working [insert nationality]". Playing against an implied immoral/good-for-nothing/straight up malicious "other" was a thing from day one, and the idea of it being new is rose tinted glasses at best.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 14:36:10


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Yeah its nothing new or exclusively left wing. Reagan already used what we would later call a dog whistle to attract voters and that is at its core nothing more than identity politics in a more extreme form. Identity politics have played a role since before the term was coined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prestor Jon wrote:

https://usa.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/trump-is-vice-signalling-over-immigration-and-its-going-to-work/

Call it vice-signalling. The President and Kirstjen Nielsen are making clear that, even if it means being seen to be inhuman, they are taking voter concerns about massive immigration seriously. There is a clear political upside to this, despite – or because of – the negative headlines. ‘Zero tolerance’ on illegal immigration is popular, even if some of the unpleasant consequences are not.

Time and again, we see that the media consensus on the rights and wrongs of immigration is way out of step with what the public thinks. Look at what happened in Britain, with the Windrush scandal. There it emerged that the government, in its attempts to create an inhospitable climate for illegals, had treated some longstanding Caribbean residents as unlawful. The story sucked up enormous amounts of media oxygen – more so, arguably, than it deserved, given how few Windrush residents were targeted. Everyone who was anyone agreed that the government policy was a national disgrace, unBritish, and deeply damaging to the Prime Minister. The Home Secretary had to resign.

Then a funny thing happened. In the wake of the scandal, the government outperformed expectations in local elections, and in fact ever since Theresa May has been pulling away in the polls. Well-informed British political analysts now say that her party benefitted from Windrush, since voters appreciated the toughness on immigration even to the point of being cruel. Some even suggested the government had deliberately created the fuss to vice-signal to the electorate. Vice-signalling is the opposite of virtue-signalling, which is what a lot of the commentators now shouting about the injustice of separating families are doing. Vice-signalling involves saying or doing something that others call mean in order to show how resolute you are; how unfazed you are by public and social media denunciations. It’s becoming quite the thing.

Finally, now Fox and Friends has a good way of talking positively about Kim, he's not a brutal dictator, its just vice signalling

Man, the things they come up with.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 15:00:17


Post by: cuda1179


 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:

Also nice to see you avoid the stuff about your source being literal garbage.

Ah... no attempt for sincere dialogue? Cool... <hits ignore button>

Ahhh, ok. So calling you out for using a bad source (i.e. fox news, breitbart) is bad and wrong and not looking for a discussion, but actually using fox or breitbart in an attempt to bash a party is an attempt at discussion? Really?



Fox is the Right's CNN or MSNBC. Breitbart is their Huffington Post. Let's not pretend one side has a monopoly on garbage.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 15:16:35


Post by: Wolfblade


 cuda1179 wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:

Also nice to see you avoid the stuff about your source being literal garbage.

Ah... no attempt for sincere dialogue? Cool... <hits ignore button>

Ahhh, ok. So calling you out for using a bad source (i.e. fox news, breitbart) is bad and wrong and not looking for a discussion, but actually using fox or breitbart in an attempt to bash a party is an attempt at discussion? Really?



Fox is the Right's CNN or MSNBC. Breitbart is their Huffington Post. Let's not pretend one side has a monopoly on garbage.


Except fox and breitbart are far worse and not even comparable. Breitbart and fox don't even try and pretend they have any purpose beyond being propaganda for the right.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 15:17:16


Post by: Togusa


lonestarr777 wrote:
Hillary lost. No one wanted her, on either side. We get it. You hate her.

This. Changes. NOTHING.

Oh no in an alternate dimension where Hillary won because when you get less votes in an election you lose in bizzaro world, she'd do the same thing right? Is that the point?

This is beyond aggravating. Whataboutism is the biggest garbage logic I have ever seen. This is gak a five year old pulls. You walk in the living room and Jimmy is peeing on the carpet in the corner, when you yell at him he shrugs and says "Well Mikey stole some cookies yesterday." It doesn't matter. Jimmy is peeing on the carpet right now, because Mikey did something stupid doesn't excuse it. Bad behavior is bad behavior, period!


I wish I could upvote this 1000 times.

I too am sick to death of the phrase "But Hillary....."

feth Hillary. She's gone, old news, out of politics.

<Screams into the void>


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 15:17:47


Post by: Disciple of Fate


So Jeff wrote an Op-Ed
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/06/19/jeff-session-we-dont-want-separate-parents-kids-editorials-debates/36192703/

Jeff Sessions: We don’t want to separate parents from kids

Jeff Sessions 

Published 12:04 p.m. UTC Jun 20, 2018

Some years ago, it was decided that law enforcement might arrest adults who crossed the border illegally by themselves, but anyone who brought a child with them would not be prosecuted, a form of immunity.

Word got out about this loophole with predictable results. The number of aliens illegally crossing with children between our ports of entry went from 14,000 to 75,000 — a fivefold increase — in just the past four years.

These trends undermine the integrity of our system. That’s why the policy that is causing them must end, too.

Ending this blanket immunity means prosecuting adults for illegal entry whether they have children with them or not. That is what we are doing at the Department of Justice.

OUR VIEW: Zero tolerance makes zero sense

But we will not put the children in jail. Instead, the children must be cared for by the Department of Health and Human Services, as the law requires.

And these children are well cared for. In fact, they get better care than a lot of American kids do. They are provided plenty of food, education in their language, health and dental care, and transported to their destination city — all at taxpayer expense.

In total, HHS is spending more than one billion taxpayer dollars a year providing quality care.

Separations are temporary and rare. The vast majority of children in custody came to this country by themselves.

Many unaccompanied children have been abused by smugglers or recruited by criminal gangs such as MS-13. There is nothing humane about encouraging human trafficking — but that is what open borders policies do. Everything the Trump administration is doing is helping put traffickers out of business.

If people have a genuine asylum claim, they can come to a port of entry, make their claim legally, and remain with their children while their case is processed.


We do not want to separate parents from their children. What we want is a safe, lawful system of immigration that would end this question altogether. We want to build a wall to prevent illegal entry. Congress could make that happen quickly — and they should.

Those who want to come to this country can and should apply legally. We have the most generous immigration laws in the world — but they should be enforced. At the Department of Justice, that is what we intend to do, and we ask Congress to be our partners in this effort.

Jeff Sessions is the attorney general of the United States.

Somehow I don't think the argument that you treat them better than American children is a great defense at all. Well that and the other bollocks.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 15:18:07


Post by: Togusa


 Wolfblade wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:

Also nice to see you avoid the stuff about your source being literal garbage.

Ah... no attempt for sincere dialogue? Cool... <hits ignore button>

Ahhh, ok. So calling you out for using a bad source (i.e. fox news, breitbart) is bad and wrong and not looking for a discussion, but actually using fox or breitbart in an attempt to bash a party is an attempt at discussion? Really?



Fox is the Right's CNN or MSNBC. Breitbart is their Huffington Post. Let's not pretend one side has a monopoly on garbage.


Except fox and breitbart are far worse and not even comparable. Breitbart and fox don't even try and pretend they have any purpose beyond being propaganda for the right.


I dunno, I did see some good reporting from fox about the two dictators meeting in Singapore a few weeks ago.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 15:19:43


Post by: Wolfblade


 Togusa wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:

Also nice to see you avoid the stuff about your source being literal garbage.

Ah... no attempt for sincere dialogue? Cool... <hits ignore button>

Ahhh, ok. So calling you out for using a bad source (i.e. fox news, breitbart) is bad and wrong and not looking for a discussion, but actually using fox or breitbart in an attempt to bash a party is an attempt at discussion? Really?



Fox is the Right's CNN or MSNBC. Breitbart is their Huffington Post. Let's not pretend one side has a monopoly on garbage.


Except fox and breitbart are far worse and not even comparable. Breitbart and fox don't even try and pretend they have any purpose beyond being propaganda for the right.


I dunno, I did see some good reporting from fox about the two dictators meeting in Singapore a few weeks ago.


Hey, even fox makes a mistake and lets facts slip through once in awhile!


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 16:21:18


Post by: Crispy78


Can't find it but I'm sure someone mentioned Godwin's Law earlier. Please see the following update from Godwin. He's cool with the comparison.

https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320?s=19


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 16:33:06


Post by: Vaktathi


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
So Jeff wrote an Op-Ed
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/06/19/jeff-session-we-dont-want-separate-parents-kids-editorials-debates/36192703/

Jeff Sessions: We don’t want to separate parents from kids

Jeff Sessions 

Published 12:04 p.m. UTC Jun 20, 2018

Some years ago, it was decided that law enforcement might arrest adults who crossed the border illegally by themselves, but anyone who brought a child with them would not be prosecuted, a form of immunity.

Word got out about this loophole with predictable results. The number of aliens illegally crossing with children between our ports of entry went from 14,000 to 75,000 — a fivefold increase — in just the past four years.

These trends undermine the integrity of our system. That’s why the policy that is causing them must end, too.

Ending this blanket immunity means prosecuting adults for illegal entry whether they have children with them or not. That is what we are doing at the Department of Justice.

OUR VIEW: Zero tolerance makes zero sense

But we will not put the children in jail. Instead, the children must be cared for by the Department of Health and Human Services, as the law requires.

And these children are well cared for. In fact, they get better care than a lot of American kids do. They are provided plenty of food, education in their language, health and dental care, and transported to their destination city — all at taxpayer expense.

In total, HHS is spending more than one billion taxpayer dollars a year providing quality care.

Separations are temporary and rare. The vast majority of children in custody came to this country by themselves.

Many unaccompanied children have been abused by smugglers or recruited by criminal gangs such as MS-13. There is nothing humane about encouraging human trafficking — but that is what open borders policies do. Everything the Trump administration is doing is helping put traffickers out of business.

If people have a genuine asylum claim, they can come to a port of entry, make their claim legally, and remain with their children while their case is processed.


We do not want to separate parents from their children. What we want is a safe, lawful system of immigration that would end this question altogether. We want to build a wall to prevent illegal entry. Congress could make that happen quickly — and they should.

Those who want to come to this country can and should apply legally. We have the most generous immigration laws in the world — but they should be enforced. At the Department of Justice, that is what we intend to do, and we ask Congress to be our partners in this effort.

Jeff Sessions is the attorney general of the United States.

Somehow I don't think the argument that you treat them better than American children is a great defense at all. Well that and the other bollocks.
it is interesting how this has gone from "not policy" to "yeah this is totally policy" in the space of 3 or 4 days with this administration.

Its also especially interesting how Sessions notes that asylum seekers should go through ports of entry...where they are actively and categorically being denied entry.


Crispy78 wrote:
Can't find it but I'm sure someone mentioned Godwin's Law earlier. Please see the following update from Godwin. He's cool with the comparison.

https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320?s=19
that is...more than a wee bit amusing. EDIT: its older than I thought, hadnt realized that was from last august.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 16:33:53


Post by: Spinner


Depends on who you ask and how willing they are to gloat about it, as far as I can tell.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 16:37:09


Post by: feeder


Speaking of Godwin, ICE director Thomas Homan, speaking to Fox, used this staggeringly tone deaf defense that his office is not like the Nazis:
Thomas Homan wrote:“I think it’s an insult to the brave men and women of the border patrol and ICE to call law enforcement officers Nazis. They are simply enforcing laws enacted by Congress.”

And of course Fox just let it slide like the sycophantic little toadies they are.

How do people so stupid get such important positions?


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 16:44:27


Post by: Sarouan


I wasn't aware that the Senate needed 60 votes in that case, so that's where the blockade is. Thanks to all the people who answered me.

Meanwhile, USA officially got out of UN Human Rights Council. It's another symbol, as far as I read, but that's another symbol that will be interpreted a lot. I truly wonder how you americans manage to handle that storm of news these last days. It doesn't seem to stop, that's impressive in some way. Must be tiring as hell as well...

To people supporting the Republican's current line, do you think it would be wise it keeps going that way at this pace ? I mean, beyond partisanship, purpose of politics is to go somewhere someday. So far, I must say it's difficult to me to see a pattern other than Trump trying to do everything to get releected next mandate, as if it was the sole purpose for his actions - but that seems a bit "weak" as a purpose here. What would be the right course for the conservatives in the end, in your opinion ? I'm genuinely interested here. What would be the best candidate for next mandate, in the end ?

Hope this topic will stay open. I may not agree with everything stated here, but it's really interesting to see the different points of view so long as everyone stays polite. I understand it's not an easy thing sometimes, with how things are heated these times.


US & NA Politics Thread @ 2018/06/20 16:53:34


Post by: Wolfblade


Stay classy, Fox, stay classy

For the work blocked, Corey Lewandowski (on fox) makes a "womp womp" sound while Zac Petkanas talks about a 10-year-old girl with Down Syndrome who was separated from her mother, then proceeds to try and cover it up by talking about laws/illegal border crossing.