Me and my friend, who play Blood Angels, where talking about the start collecting boxes and which one is the best and I was wondering which one you guys this is the best

I was under the impression that the Guard box was the best value, and Orks was good value too. I could be wrong though.

The Tau one is pretty great. Only held back by Crisis suits being, uh, less than ideal in 8th edition.

Nurgle Daemons is pretty crazy good, and Tzeentch Daemons can get you about double the value.

Probably best for the value would be Militarum Tempestus.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I was under the impression that the Guard box was the best value, and Orks was good value too. I could be wrong though.

I wouldn't say the IG box is of that great a value. You get a tank, a squad of infantry, a single weapons base, and a Commissar.

The Necrons one comes with Warriors, Immortals, 2 Overlords, Scarabs, and an Annihilation Barge. The Tau one comes with 8 Drones, 3 Suits, some Fire Warriors and an Ethereal.

If you want to start a Guard army, I'd recommend the Defense Force set, which is, IMO a better start. It actually gets you something remotely playable, while the Start Collecting box gets you a total of like 250 points. We've been able to work 500 points out of most of the other Start Collecting boxes, or at least playable armies, the IG box isn't that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:
The Tau one is pretty great. Only held back by Crisis suits being, uh, less than ideal in 8th edition.

You can make them Commanders, though.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

You can make them Commanders, though.

You can, but the best Commander is probably the Coldstar (which is another kit) and for 4 points you get 1 extra wound on the Enforcer.

Money wise, for 40k the Mechanicus box is the best deal (Onager $66, Skitarii $40, Techpriest $30) and for AoS it's Seraphon (Carnasaur is $85)

Ork is pretty good if you want the deff dread, which is meh right now...


Do you still get all the bits and sprues for each included kit with the start collecting boxes or is it stripped down?

you get all the bits and pieces. at least you do in the space wolf box I bought a month ago

Betrayal at Calth. You get a better Dreadnought, enough characters and troops for a batallion, some terminators too.

 AUGmaniac wrote:
Money wise, for 40k the Mechanicus box is the best deal (Onager $66, Skitarii $40, Techpriest $30) and for AoS it's Seraphon (Carnasaur is $85)

Both the Tau and AM boxes add up to $141 USD, as it so happens! Good values there.

 Billagio wrote:
Ork is pretty good if you want the deff dread, which is meh right now...


Do you still get all the bits and sprues for each included kit with the start collecting boxes or is it stripped down?

All of the are the full, normal sprues.

Scion one is pretty good. Makes the infantry bearable and tauros is good. Commisar is bit of meh but isn't complete sucker. This one you can buy multiples without being waste of money.

Compare to say orks which has painboy you don't need tons and deff dread you shouldn't even get one if you don't want to handicap already weak army.

Tau is the best one I feel.
2 of those and your golden really. Especially if you ignore all the crisis suit whinging

ValentineGames wrote:
Tau is the best one I feel.
2 of those and your golden really. Especially if you ignore all the crisis suit whinging

It's hard to ignore the whinging when they are pretty much the last black mark on the army in 8th. I don't play Tau, but even I can see how plain useless they are at their cost.

meleti wrote:
The Tau one is pretty great. Only held back by Crisis suits being, uh, less than ideal in 8th edition.

Yeah, the Crisis suits alone normally retail for £45, and the Start Collecting is £50. So money wise it's amazing value. But the problem is that Crisis suits are very poorly costed in game at the moment. If that every changes, this box will be amazing.

I think the SC boxes can be measured via a few metrics.

Absolute value: How much would it cost to buy all the components individually?
Repeatability: How useful would it be to buy multiple copies?
Usability: Are the contents any good?
Other options? i.e don’t get the SC: Space marine box, save and get the BaC box which is a far better deal

Absolute value is only relevant when tied to usability. It doesn’t matter how much you are saving if half the box is just destined to warm the shelf. Although if the box is a good enough value, you could just bin the parts you don’t want and still be ahead. (or e-bay/trade them if thinking clearly). This is true of all the boxed bundles that GW produces.

Repeatability is not relevant if you are just grabbing one. But I think it’s good to evaluate them with it in mind. A number of the SC boxes have monopose HQs. How many of those do you need? One or two, often depending how hard it would be to carve them up and turn them into something else. Sometimes getting more helps. When I picked up a SC: Eldar box, I thought that a solo war walker was a waste. Too fragile, not enough firepower, not worth wasting buffs on. But I grabbed a second SC box, and now I’m thinking that a squadron of two would let me pull some nice tricks.

Usability is a moving target. It depends on the current codex, rules, and meta. But it’s not worth getting the box if you can’t field the units in a army you want to play.

 vaklor4 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Tau is the best one I feel.
2 of those and your golden really. Especially if you ignore all the crisis suit whinging

It's hard to ignore the whinging when they are pretty much the last black mark on the army in 8th. I don't play Tau, but even I can see how plain useless they are at their cost.

Utterly disagree but hey ho. If nobody wants them I'll gladly take them

ValentineGames wrote:
Tau is the best one I feel.
2 of those and your golden really. Especially if you ignore all the crisis suit whinging

Ah so pointing out obvious is whining. Check.

If you take crisis suits because they are cool fine. But you have to realize you are weakening army a lot. Ork players could be taking dreadnoughts and stompa as they are cool but they know odds of winning goes thinner by it(in case of stompa chance of win is then somewhere between 0% and 0.1%)

ValentineGames wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Tau is the best one I feel.
2 of those and your golden really. Especially if you ignore all the crisis suit whinging

It's hard to ignore the whinging when they are pretty much the last black mark on the army in 8th. I don't play Tau, but even I can see how plain useless they are at their cost.

Utterly disagree but hey ho. If nobody wants them I'll gladly take them

I'm not giving mine as I hope they get eventually fixed, but out of the twelve I own, I've played exactly zero since 8th dropped because they are utter junk and the only semi viable build is triple ion.

tneva82 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Tau is the best one I feel.
2 of those and your golden really. Especially if you ignore all the crisis suit whinging

Ah so pointing out obvious is whining. Check.

If you take crisis suits because they are cool fine. But you have to realize you are weakening army a lot. Ork players could be taking dreadnoughts and stompa as they are cool but they know odds of winning goes thinner by it(in case of stompa chance of win is then somewhere between 0% and 0.1%)

I'll take those off their hands too. If I did orks I'd always go stompa/dread/kan heavy

 BoomWolf wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Tau is the best one I feel.
2 of those and your golden really. Especially if you ignore all the crisis suit whinging

It's hard to ignore the whinging when they are pretty much the last black mark on the army in 8th. I don't play Tau, but even I can see how plain useless they are at their cost.

Utterly disagree but hey ho. If nobody wants them I'll gladly take them

I'm not giving mine as I hope they get eventually fixed, but out of the twelve I own, I've played exactly zero since 8th dropped because they are utter junk and the only semi viable build is triple ion.

Meh their only good function is to turn one into a crisis commander.
Put with drone controller and velocity tracker and no weapons. Now you have a 79 point kauyon and C&CN model for your misslesides and frees up your coldstar(s) for shenanigans

meleti wrote:
The Tau one is pretty great. Only held back by Crisis suits being, uh, less than ideal in 8th edition.

Play them as XV8 Crisis Commanders which are frickin' good. It's literally the only start Collecting Box with 4 HQ choices in it, kek.

@OP: As others have said, best money value are by far Tau, Necrons and Mechanicus for 40k, and Seraphon + Pestilens (/Skaven) for AoS. The Guard box is actually one of the lowest value ones.

The nice thing about the Tau, Necron and Mechanicus boxes are also that they all have great units in them you WANT multiple of, so if you buy two or three of them you already have the core of a 1000 or 1500 point army.

 Nevelon wrote:
I think the SC boxes can be measured via a few metrics.

Absolute value: How much would it cost to buy all the components individually?
Repeatability: How useful would it be to buy multiple copies?
Usability: Are the contents any good?
Other options? i.e don’t get the SC: Space marine box, save and get the BaC box which is a far better deal

Absolute value is only relevant when tied to usability. It doesn’t matter how much you are saving if half the box is just destined to warm the shelf. Although if the box is a good enough value, you could just bin the parts you don’t want and still be ahead. (or e-bay/trade them if thinking clearly). This is true of all the boxed bundles that GW produces.

Repeatability is not relevant if you are just grabbing one. But I think it’s good to evaluate them with it in mind. A number of the SC boxes have monopose HQs. How many of those do you need? One or two, often depending how hard it would be to carve them up and turn them into something else. Sometimes getting more helps. When I picked up a SC: Eldar box, I thought that a solo war walker was a waste. Too fragile, not enough firepower, not worth wasting buffs on. But I grabbed a second SC box, and now I’m thinking that a squadron of two would let me pull some nice tricks.

Usability is a moving target. It depends on the current codex, rules, and meta. But it’s not worth getting the box if you can’t field the units in a army you want to play.

Under usability, just because the contents are "good", doesn't mean the box is usable. It's a START COLLECTING box, if it doesn't provide you a place to actually start collecting, and you need to buy 5 more boxes of things to play a game, it's not a very good starter set, is it?

The IG box is in this situation. Leman Russes aren't good, but you can always make it a Tank Commander, which is, so sure you can use the infantry squad and tank that comes in the IG box, but a tank and an infantry does not something remotely usable make.

Leman russ aren't good?
Jesus are players really this bad now?

Remember Dakkadakka's rule 13
- Army you're playing is the worst in the game.

We can also apply rule 23 here:
-If it is proven, mathematically to be 0.24% better at killing a Space Marine it's the best choice, everything else is "hot garbage" and you'd be stupid to take those options/models.

That applies to Leman Russes if you compare them with Tank Commanders.

 Galas wrote:
Remember Dakkadakka's rule 13
- Army you're playing is the worst in the game.

We can also apply rule 23 here:
-If it is proven, mathematically to be 0.24% better at killing a Space Marine it's the best choice, everything else is "hot garbage" and you'd be stupid to take those options/models.

That applies to Leman Russes if you compare them with Tank Commanders.

Ahh. Yes I forgot about those rules and the logic of the 40k players mind

Lemon rusts arent bad, people are just bad. Just like how im not good, my berzerkers are

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Under usability, just because the contents are "good", doesn't mean the box is usable. It's a START COLLECTING box, if it doesn't provide you a place to actually start collecting, and you need to buy 5 more boxes of things to play a game, it's not a very good starter set, is it?

The IG box is in this situation. Leman Russes aren't good, but you can always make it a Tank Commander, which is, so sure you can use the infantry squad and tank that comes in the IG box, but a tank and an infantry does not something remotely usable make.

True. That would be another good metric to gauge them. A lot of them can work fine as an army expansion box, but how well do they work for someone just getting into the game? With the different “ways to play” and detachments, it’s not as simple as it used to be when we just needed a HQ and 2 troops.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Under usability, just because the contents are "good", doesn't mean the box is usable. It's a START COLLECTING box, if it doesn't provide you a place to actually start collecting, and you need to buy 5 more boxes of things to play a game, it's not a very good starter set, is it?

The IG box is in this situation. Leman Russes aren't good, but you can always make it a Tank Commander, which is, so sure you can use the infantry squad and tank that comes in the IG box, but a tank and an infantry does not something remotely usable make.

True. That would be another good metric to gauge them. A lot of them can work fine as an army expansion box, but how well do they work for someone just getting into the game? With the different “ways to play” and detachments, it’s not as simple as it used to be when we just needed a HQ and 2 troops.

It's not that much more complicated, a very high proportion of tournament lists have a battalion (2 HQ, 3 troops) or a brigade somewhere. And an even higher proportion of friday night beer league armies, I'd wager.

ValentineGames wrote:
Leman russ aren't good?
Jesus are players really this bad now?

I've gone over this. And I wasn't even complaining about the tank's quality anyway. Like the Crisis Suits in the Tau kit, you can just have a Tank Commander. Nobody will be upset, and just glue an antenna on if someone is, because that's all the upgrade sprue is. Or paint a command marking. It doesn't matter; an "official" Tank Commander is just a Leman Russ with an upgrade sprue. And there's nothing stopping you from using it just as a normal heavy support, BS4+, Non-Commander Leman Russ. It's not great, but it's presence isn't going to make you lose the game either, especially at 500-1000 points when you're just starting out.

However what I was complaining about is that a single tank and squad of guys, no matter how you work it, isn't something you can play a game with. The tank, generously upgraded with lots of useless bangles, is maximally 285 points. The infantry squad, if I buy all the most expensive upgrades, is 87 points. Add in the Commissar and the kit barely edges you over 400 points if you buy every single useless upgrade you can [414 by battlescribe's reckoning]. On the other hand, the Necron and Tau kits both yield over 600 points without trying to find the most expensive upgrades to buy for everybody.

You can pick up a Necron, Tau, or Space Marines, set and play a game with the stuff in it. It's a very small game, but it's usable. You can't pick up the IG box and play a game with what's in it, you'll need at least 2 more units, probably 3.

For what it's worth, GW did notice this problem. There's the "Defense Force" sets that comfortably brings you over 500 points without sticking on pointless widgets if you want to start IG, and the new Start Collecting sets, like the new Necron one, comes with 2 HQ's and 2 different infantry units.

Leman Russ are great. Buy the box and you've got a tank Commander or a Pask to just rip up your friends without even trying.

meleti wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Under usability, just because the contents are "good", doesn't mean the box is usable. It's a START COLLECTING box, if it doesn't provide you a place to actually start collecting, and you need to buy 5 more boxes of things to play a game, it's not a very good starter set, is it?

The IG box is in this situation. Leman Russes aren't good, but you can always make it a Tank Commander, which is, so sure you can use the infantry squad and tank that comes in the IG box, but a tank and an infantry does not something remotely usable make.

True. That would be another good metric to gauge them. A lot of them can work fine as an army expansion box, but how well do they work for someone just getting into the game? With the different “ways to play” and detachments, it’s not as simple as it used to be when we just needed a HQ and 2 troops.

It's not that much more complicated, a very high proportion of tournament lists have a battalion (2 HQ, 3 troops) or a brigade somewhere. And an even higher proportion of friday night beer league armies, I'd wager.

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

The Tyranid box isn’t too bad, although not entirely usable by itself. Gets you a decent HQ, a Troop it buffs, and an alternative delivery method for your troop choice/distraction for heavy weapons fire.

The Militarum Tempestus SC box gives you every Militarum Tempestus unit available, plus a commissar!

Surprised there hasn't been a little more love for the Adeptus Mechanicus set. It seems really solid to me. I have one and am planning on buying two more. With the exception of the third Tech-Priest, I expect to use every single model in the vast majority of games I play with the faction.

The AdMech box is fantastic money wise and for the usefulness of the contents. Two boxes gets you a batallion and a solid core to any AdMech force.

Even if you’re just looking for another Dune Crawler it’s worth it just for the cheap Skitarii and the Tech Priest is basically free bits.

 Marmatag wrote:
Leman Russ are great. Buy the box and you've got a tank Commander or a Pask to just rip up your friends without even trying.

Ahh that explains it.
Playing with no effort. I can see why people choose commanders now.

The IG SC is just so annoying, the $165 Defense Force is an insult as a "Start Collecting" box.

I wish the $85 IG box came with 2 infantry squads, some sort of HQ model (I prefer the look of a commisar, but maybe something that's a [insert pinkey into corner of mouth] mini-Creed would be better), a Chimera and a Sentinel (or Heavy Weapon squad set). That seems like it would be a good starting point.

You grt one HQ model, one troops squad, and one other.

Thats what most Start Collecting boxes are.

I think people misunderstand that START collecting does not mean full FINISHED army...

But I'm thinking people are purposefully ignoring that so as to give themselves some weird sense of high horse satisfaction.

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

 Crazyterran wrote:
You grt one HQ model, one troops squad, and one other.

Thats what most Start Collecting boxes are.

This a start collecting box is basicly a patrol detachment.(in fact they outright noted with the custodes release that the custodes guard box basicly IS their start collecting box) the problem isn't so much an issue with the start collecting boxes as it is a problem with guard over all in that you just need MORE of something to play. with space Marines I can play a game with a start collecting box easily a termy captain, a dread, and a ten man tac squad? I can get proably 500 points out of that if I load up all the bells and whistles. Guard is so cheap point wise there's really nothing they could do to make a 100 dollar start collecting set work for them.

They're a hoard army and thus it's hard to really do much with them in terms of a "discount starter force"
Compare how much a 500 point space marine army goes for, vs a 500 point guard army (and toss a 500 point Custodes army in to give an idea of the other extreme) and you'll swiftly see what I mean

Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

Rybrook wrote:

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

They were great, I had the Blood Angels one as a kid. It had a dreadnought, a 10 man death company, 5 man Terminator squad, a tactial squad, a 10 man devestator squad a captain and those god awful scouts with mohawks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

Grey Knights: Don't bother collecting box with a 10 man Guard Squad, a Commissar, a Heavy Weapons Team and a Leman Russ battle tank

Karol wrote:
Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
You grt one HQ model, one troops squad, and one other.

Thats what most Start Collecting boxes are.

This a start collecting box is basicly a patrol detachment.(in fact they outright noted with the custodes release that the custodes guard box basicly IS their start collecting box) the problem isn't so much an issue with the start collecting boxes as it is a problem with guard over all in that you just need MORE of something to play. with space Marines I can play a game with a start collecting box easily a termy captain, a dread, and a ten man tac squad? I can get proably 500 points out of that if I load up all the bells and whistles. Guard is so cheap point wise there's really nothing they could do to make a 100 dollar start collecting set work for them.

They're a hoard army and thus it's hard to really do much with them in terms of a "discount starter force"
Compare how much a 500 point space marine army goes for, vs a 500 point guard army (and toss a 500 point Custodes army in to give an idea of the other extreme) and you'll swiftly see what I mean

Its the same thing for Orks and Tyranids, so..?

Hell, the Leman Russ can be a points sink if you want it to be. Orks get a Trukk.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

Artemis

Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

So most of the battle force boxes? They don't keep them in stock for every faction on the regular, but I've got 3 hqs, 3 troops and a transport for GSC sitting in a box up stairs. The price is a bit higher than you quoted, but I don't expect that to change much.

Gonna say, still pretty damned intimidating. The start collecting boxes are not a bad idea as most people are probably going to want to start with a far, far smaller pile of plastic. The battleforces are nice once you have the idea you really want to run with a faction though.

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

phillv85 wrote:

Rybrook wrote:

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

They were great, I had the Blood Angels one as a kid. It had a dreadnought, a 10 man death company, 5 man Terminator squad, a tactial squad, a 10 man devestator squad a captain and those god awful scouts with mohawks.

Nothing like 1500/ 2000 Pts out of the box

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

I believe it's just chatting a load of...

Rybrook wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

Rybrook wrote:

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

They were great, I had the Blood Angels one as a kid. It had a dreadnought, a 10 man death company, 5 man Terminator squad, a tactial squad, a 10 man devestator squad a captain and those god awful scouts with mohawks.

Nothing like 1500/ 2000 Pts out of the box

That was back in 2nd edition, that was enough for a reasonable game. It was never designed to be a single box containing the whole range.

Yes but comparing it to a SC box it’s better

Rybrook wrote:

Nothing like 1500/ 2000 Pts out of the box

Which was a lot fewer miniatures back then.

Process wrote:
The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

Not 100% true. The new Eldar SC box is a farseer, wraithguard, wraithlord, and a war walker (HQ, 2xHS, elite). The old one was a jetseer, 3 bikes, and a fireprism (which did fit the formula at the time, would not today) A quick look at the SC boxes on GW’s site looks like the rest of them do fit the formula, and the Eldar one is the only outlier. But I’m not 100% on all the armies these days.

From a pure value POV, the eldar is a good buy. You get a lot of stuff in the box. It is not really a good start point for an army. If you added another HS you could fit it into a detachment, but none on it’s own. Everything in there is playable, but that’s Eldar for you. None of the units are the hot ticket ones however. Due to the options on the units, it is great for expanding an army. If you are tired of your guys dying in a stiff breeze, you get a bunch of anvil units. Need some CC chop? you can build it. Long range fire? It’s there.

From a hobby perspective the box is great. The wraith units have a ton of options for how to build them. With all the gun options for things, plenty of builds there. The only real drag is the monopose farseer. Who can probably be converted into a warlock/bonesinger/spiritseer with minimal work.

I bought 2. But I already had a core of an Eldar army. The only people who would want to start an eldar army with this box would be illiadan players.

 Nevelon wrote:

Process wrote:
The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

The only people who would want to start an eldar army with this box would be illiadan players.

Can you not use wraiths in other eldar armies?

Process wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Process wrote:
The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

The only people who would want to start an eldar army with this box would be illiadan players.

Can you not use wraiths in other eldar armies?

You can. But they are only central to the theme of one craftworld. Most Eldar players are going to want to have their army core based around non-wraith units. Thematically, they are anti-eldar. Slow and tough units in an army who’s central theme is fast and fragile. If you are drawn to the army, odds are it’s for the lithe warriors sprinting across the battlefield, or the bikes and grav tanks zooming across the skies. Not the slow, plodding wraiths.

So for a new player (barring Illydan) no units in the box are likely to match the things that drew you to the army. They make a great complement to a “classic” eldar army. And anvil to smash your foes upon with the swift hammer of the rest of your army. But starting out? Not so much.

IMHO, YMMV, Etc...

Recently bought the Tau SC box. Very happy with its contents and have already incorporated it into a 1k list I want to run. Should work pretty well with the pie in the sky 2k list I have in mind as well.

The Drukhari (Wyches) Start Collecting box is not too bad, assuming you want to take Wyches! You get about 300 points of stuff. More importantly, its a playable Patrol detachment right out of the box (HQ, Troops, Fast Attack plus a Transport). With two boxes you have a solid (if Wyches can be called that) Battalion. I think that it meets the intent of the Start Collecting boxes well as well as having things inside that you don't mind having multiples of.

I'm sure a Haemonculus Start Collecting box would do well if they made one. They could probably fit a playable Coven Patrol detachment in there (Haemonculus, Wracks and a Talos maybe?)

Process wrote:
Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

I hope they will make one soon, and them make a starter set and fix the GK codex. It is beyond my understanding how they are making clown elfs, emo elfs, ranger elfs and give them a ton of models, when they don't need them, and leave other factions with nothing.

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

For the GK all they need to do is put in a Terminator and he can be either a brother-captain or a grandmaster or even a librarian. The bigger issue would be putting in a heavy unit. You would have to choose either a Landraider or a Dreadknight or a Purgation squad. I seriously doubt that they would put in either vehicle and the Purgation squad is just a varient use of the strike squad sprue.

Karol wrote:

Process wrote:

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

I hope they will make one soon, and them make a starter set and fix the GK codex. It is beyond my understanding how they are making clown elfs, emo elfs, ranger elfs and give them a ton of models, when they don't need them, and leave other factions with nothing.

But does the game really need more marine models? I agree that the GKCodex needs work(and of course a plastic HQ for a Start Collecting! would be great), but right now their niche of Elite SM army is filled by Custodes. They need an overhaul to be more like the Deathwatch, but for Chaos.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Karol wrote:

Process wrote:

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

I hope they will make one soon, and them make a starter set and fix the GK codex. It is beyond my understanding how they are making clown elfs, emo elfs, ranger elfs and give them a ton of models, when they don't need them, and leave other factions with nothing.

But does the game really need more marine models? I agree that the GKCodex needs work(and of course a plastic HQ for a Start Collecting! would be great), but right now their niche of Elite SM army is filled by Custodes. They need an overhaul to be more like the Deathwatch, but for Chaos.

Personally I'd shift them to a demon killing codex. Keep the Grey Knights as core but have Sisters of Silence and maybe some extra Ordo Malleus stuff as auxillaries.

Process wrote:Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

You cannot play a game with a IG box against, well, anyone, unless you find someone willing to play 250 points.

The other boxes are all 500 points. If you want to start a Guard army, I generally recommend the defense force as your first stop. The SC box is worth so little points-wise that it's only really practical for expanding a collection. It's also not great value.
As I said, it should be a place for a prospective new player to enter the hobby. Some of them are, like the Necron one, or even the Space Marine one that gets you 2 tactical squads [remember, almost everyone else has 5-man infantry units] and a dreadnought.

Though it's obvious GW knows this, since the new Necron one comes with a squad of immortals and an extra HQ, and there's the Defense Force boxes that actually do give you an Imperial Guard starter force/

Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

Hah, when I first started I couldn't find anyone who was willing to play less than 1750 to 2000 points back during 6th edition. I basically got told to spend 3-4 hundred dollars to see if I even like the game.

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

This ts true, though. You can't play at $50. Minimum is probably around $150, and even then you'll have a hard time finding someone to play with.

That's why escalation leagues are a thing, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to start.

As I said, I think a marginally more expensive starter box, with a little bit more in it would be better.

Hatachi wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

Hah, when I first started I couldn't find anyone who was willing to play less than 1750 to 2000 points back during 6th edition. I basically got told to spend 3-4 hundred dollars to see if I even like the game.

Ahh yes. 6th. Dark times indeed. And the community has never recovered from it...at least those who didn't destroy the game...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

This ts true, though. You can't play at $50. Minimum is probably around $150, and even then you'll have a hard time finding someone to play with.

That's why escalation leagues are a thing, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to start.

As I said, I think a marginally more expensive starter box, with a little bit more in it would be better.

Absolute nonsense.
If you want to play 40k with just the Start Collecting box you most assuredly can and it should be encouraged.
You don't tell little jonny "oh sorry loser. You've not spent the minimum amount required to play this game.
Come back when you're not a loser. Hahahaha"

What a disgusting attitude. No wonder this games dead.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Process wrote:Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

You cannot play a game with a IG box against, well, anyone, unless you find someone willing to play 250 points.

The other boxes are all 500 points. If you want to start a Guard army, I generally recommend the defense force as your first stop. The SC box is worth so little points-wise that it's only really practical for expanding a collection. It's also not great value.
As I said, it should be a place for a prospective new player to enter the hobby. Some of them are, like the Necron one, or even the Space Marine one that gets you 2 tactical squads [remember, almost everyone else has 5-man infantry units] and a dreadnought.

Though it's obvious GW knows this, since the new Necron one comes with a squad of immortals and an extra HQ, and there's the Defense Force boxes that actually do give you an Imperial Guard starter force/

It's worth mentioning that when most GW shops used to run "start collecting" events, points weren't a thing. It was literally just "You paint & play what's in the box." That's why they had the formations in there, making it so armies that otherwise couldn't work had a way to do so.

The best Start Collecting box is the one that makes you pull it down off the shelf, think "This looks cool," and buy it.

The worst one is whatever your friend got.

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example. If I knew that GK were so bad, I would have told my friends to play by themselfs and saved the money for a laptop. I can imagine anyone who spends money on anything, and then finds out the stuff he bought is bad, does not feel good about it. Even if someone is rich, he or she probablly wouldn't be happy to get the wrong or bad service, as a matter or principal.

Hah, when I first started I couldn't find anyone who was willing to play less than 1750 to 2000 points back during 6th edition. I basically got told to spend 3-4 hundred dollars to see if I even like the game.

Same here. People play 2000 or 2250 here. If you don't have it and are new, then maybe they will play you once or twice, if they have nothing to do, if you have fewer points. But after those 2 times, they will expect that you will either get the proper points or they will just not play you, because playing fewer points is waste of their time and money. And no one is going to waster their time and money, that someone else has fun.

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

Actual gamers come here and complain about their struggles all the time. Dropping $300 on an army, and then being totally and completely unable to compete even casually, is a problem that people do face.

It's normal to seek out opinions and information before you make a purchase and commitment like starting an army.

You're implicitly making the argument here, by the way, that the way you play is the right way. Others play differently and that is okay.

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example.

Well that says it all then.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For the GK all they need to do is put in a Terminator and he can be either a brother-captain or a grandmaster or even a librarian. The bigger issue would be putting in a heavy unit. You would have to choose either a Landraider or a Dreadknight or a Purgation squad. I seriously doubt that they would put in either vehicle and the Purgation squad is just a varient use of the strike squad sprue.

Giving people a Grey Knights librarian in a start collecting box would be such a dick move. Here's the worst model in the game, start your army!

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example.

Well that says it all then.

Says all what You want to tell me that the normal situation is to be sold a defective product? If someone sold you PC that wouldn't work, and claimed everything is going to be alright, if you spend more money on another PC, you think anyone would react with happiness?

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example.

Well that says it all then.

Says all what You want to tell me that the normal situation is to be sold a defective product?

But they aren't defective. You're chatting a load of bollocks.

The goal of an army is to play with it and win. If there were other goals we wouldn't have to pay for rules, or need FAQ/errata. So an army that can not win, is just that a defective product. Dude are you really saying that Grey Knights are fine?

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win.

Oh...You're one of "those" players...
Never mind. You've just answered everything in one sentence.

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win.

Oh...You're one of "those" players...
Never mind. You've just answered everything in one sentence.

You're one of the push models around aimlessly and throw dice players then, I guess?

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win. If there were other goals we wouldn't have to pay for rules, or need FAQ/errata. So an army that can not win, is just that a defective product. Dude are you really saying that Grey Knights are fine?

Exactly! I found out the hard way that an army based on tactical marines, a squad of devs, a dakka predator, and some bikes and terminators for support sucks. Horribly. And if I wanted to enjoy playing more by having a reasonable shot at winning, I would have to buy an entirely new army because GW decided only RWBKs and Darkshrouds should be any good. I can't afford to do that- drop $100s on the "good" units-and I wouldn't even if I could.

I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

 Billagio wrote:
I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

You shouldn't have to read the codex to check if the army is any good or not before you buy it, though. They should all be good.

Blastaar wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

You shouldn't have to read the codex to check if the army is any good or not before you buy it, though. They should all be good.

I'd say at least playable.

Some armies are simply so bad they can't compete in a casual setting or competitive setting.

In a general sense, in casual games, you want your games to be close. Win or lose, a close game is fun. Feeling like you have a chance to win and ending up losing is ok, never feeling like you have a chance and getting tabled is not fun.

Karol is a guy who bought Grey Knights, and is now getting wrecked every game he plays. We discussed his list, tactics, etc, in another thread. He is rightfully upset because he bought a collection that ultimately doesn't function.

 Marmatag wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

You shouldn't have to read the codex to check if the army is any good or not before you buy it, though. They should all be good.

I'd say at least playable.

Some armies are simply so bad they can't compete in a casual setting or competitive setting.

In a general sense, in casual games, you want your games to be close. Win or lose, a close game is fun. Feeling like you have a chance to win and ending up losing is ok, never feeling like you have a chance and getting tabled is not fun.

Karol is a guy who bought Grey Knights, and is now getting wrecked every game he plays. We discussed his list, tactics, etc, in another thread. He is rightfully upset because he bought a collection that ultimately doesn't function.

Yeah I feel abd for him, (I have grey knights too, they umm... look nice on my shelf?) but at least in this edition GKs seem to be the outlier, IMHO grey knights need an entire rethink/redo to become a good army. no amount oif points adjustments etc are going to work

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win. If there were other goals we wouldn't have to pay for rules, or need FAQ/errata. So an army that can not win, is just that a defective product. Dude are you really saying that Grey Knights are fine?

I believe the goal of the game is to play and have fun. Although the definition of fun might be subjective, if your only goal is to win, that may be a part of your problem. No army in this game will allow you to just win every time. Even in previous editions, where the balance between armies wasn't even close, there was no auto-win army (though certainly some had huge advantages in this regard).

 Marmatag wrote:
Karol is a guy who bought Grey Knights, and is now getting wrecked every game he plays. We discussed his list, tactics, etc, in another thread. He is rightfully upset because he bought a collection that ultimately doesn't function.

I read that entire thread as well. While I don't disagree that Grey Knights are definitely on the weaker side of things, likely being the weakest codex, it sounds like his gaming environment is a much larger issue than his army. In any even reasonably casual environment, Grey Knights can perform decently, although it may be an uphill battle against some armies. While I certainly hope that Grey Knights (and a couple other armies) are brought up a bit to be more competitive in a tournament environment, I don't think it is particularly helpful nor useful to say his army doesn't function, or is, in his own words, "a defective product," unless of course your only reason to play is to win.

grey knights might be able to struggle on if you build their most compeitive build but I suspect a lot of people run a GKT heavy army and compound their problems. I mean one of the big draws about GKs is "terminator troops!"

Even though it may not be competitive, it is surprising there isn’t a GK Start Collecting box. Was there one and it was dropped or did it never exist?

What would folks suggest be in it? I’m thinking something like a strike squad, Nemesis Dreadknight and Voldus

 Stormonu wrote:
Even though it may not be competitive, it is surprising there isn’t a GK Start Collecting box. Was there one and it was dropped or did it never exist?

What would folks suggest be in it? I’m thinking something like a strike squad, Nemesis Dreadknight and Voldus

A letter of apology and a voucher for the value of the box to buy a start collecting box for a playable army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ValentineGames wrote:

Absolute nonsense.
If you want to play 40k with just the Start Collecting box you most assuredly can and it should be encouraged.
You don't tell little jonny "oh sorry loser. You've not spent the minimum amount required to play this game.
Come back when you're not a loser. Hahahaha"

What a disgusting attitude. No wonder this games dead.

You don't think that they don't get the feel bads aswell when they realise that their brand new and quite expensive new army is so much weaker.
Yes you can tone down some factions with some unit swaps, or not doing the aura conga chains like you would in a more competitive game.
But at a certain point it starts to become blatantly obvious that your throwing the game to keep it close.
Also if you brought along you 2nd or 3rd army you probably don't have as many weak unit's to be able to blance the game.

Also if its a club night or such they may well have already seen you play and then its even more obvious your going easy on them.

Ice_can wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Even though it may not be competitive, it is surprising there isn’t a GK Start Collecting box. Was there one and it was dropped or did it never exist?

What would folks suggest be in it? I’m thinking something like a strike squad, Nemesis Dreadknight and Voldus

A letter of apology and a voucher for the value of the box to buy a start collecting box for a playable army.

Geez, just tell me where the bad man touched you.

Seriously, what models would you expect to see in a GK Start Collecting?

Problem with GK is that there's no plastic character other than Voldus and the other sets don't have an SC.

If they brought out a plastic captain then captain+dreadknight+strike squad wouldn't be terrible.

Dreadknight+strike squad+terminators is probably too much for a start collecting.

I think the strike squad, dreadknight/venerable dreadnought and voldus/new generic plastic HQ. Is the only option available to them.

Troop. HQ and big model.

Hey another thread that’s now about why (fancy) Space Marines suck.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Problem with GK is that there's no plastic character other than Voldus and the other sets don't have an SC.

If they brought out a plastic captain then captain+dreadknight+strike squad wouldn't be terrible.

Dreadknight+strike squad+terminators is probably too much for a start collecting.

they could go with a terminator Librarian, a strike squad and terminators

BrianDavion wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Problem with GK is that there's no plastic character other than Voldus and the other sets don't have an SC.

If they brought out a plastic captain then captain+dreadknight+strike squad wouldn't be terrible.

Dreadknight+strike squad+terminators is probably too much for a start collecting.

they could go with a terminator Librarian, a strike squad and terminators

What you did there, I see it.

I've been thinking about starting Nids recently actually, but the Start Collecting is putting me off a bit...

It's an example of one of those that is great value on paper, but actually kind of awkward and not the best starting point unless you want to go down a very specific kind of list build.

Trygons are cool sure, but the guy makes up the bulk of the value of the kit and is not really that important to a new Tyranid player. Likewise, the Broodlord and Genestealers seem to be good units sure, but Stealers aren't really core Nids in my opinion. They are sort of the Tempestus Scions to Imperial Guard as it were.

Just a weird selection of units in my opinion!

A perfect box to start out for me would probably be:

Hive Tyrant
Gaunts (1 of either Horma or Terma)
Hive/Tyrant Guard

Or maybe

Hive Tyrant
Carnofex
Termagants
Hormagaunts

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Problem with GK is that there's no plastic character other than Voldus and the other sets don't have an SC.

If they brought out a plastic captain then captain+dreadknight+strike squad wouldn't be terrible.

Dreadknight+strike squad+terminators is probably too much for a start collecting.

Dreadknights can be used to make Grandmasters now, right?

I'd expect Dreadknight+5 model Strike Squad+Terminators if they were looking to cut corners.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Problem with GK is that there's no plastic character other than Voldus and the other sets don't have an SC.

If they brought out a plastic captain then captain+dreadknight+strike squad wouldn't be terrible.

Dreadknight+strike squad+terminators is probably too much for a start collecting.

they could go with a terminator Librarian, a strike squad and terminators

What you did there, I see it.

actually that was legit, the terminator Libby model is pretty much the only plastic generic HQ choice GKs have, and a strike squad plus termies would be most versitle in what they give you, giving you eaither a strike squad, interceptor squar or purifier squad, and a GK terminator squad or paladin squad. since my gut feeling is they'd not want a dreadnought as the space marine start collecting box has that, and the other GK options are simply too big/expensive that strikes me as simply the most logical mix of kits.

That said What GKs really need right now it just a complete codex re-write not a SC box

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

If you played tau you would soon learn to avoid crisis suit like plague. Those are newbie traps. Total crap unit that's seriously overpriced.

Oh and commissar from IG box might just as well be thrown to garbage bin for use it has. Even with change in FAQ it's still bad option.

tneva82 wrote:

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

If you played tau you would soon learn to avoid crisis suit like plague. Those are newbie traps. Total crap unit that's seriously overpriced.

Oh and commissar from IG box might just as well be thrown to garbage bin for use it has. Even with change in FAQ it's still bad option.

*rolls eyes*
Yeah ok we get. Everything sucks all the time

He's kind of right on Crisis. If you have new people playing 1k ishgames based on starter sets, the Tau player gets seriously outclassed if they run Crisis.

They aren't useless though! You can run them as XV8 Commanders.

Stux wrote:
He's kind of right on Crisis. If you have new people playing 1k ishgames based on starter sets, the Tau player gets seriously outclassed if they run Crisis.

They aren't useless though! You can run them as XV8 Commanders.

Thank god commander spam is gone then

ValentineGames wrote:

Stux wrote:
He's kind of right on Crisis. If you have new people playing 1k ishgames based on starter sets, the Tau player gets seriously outclassed if they run Crisis.

They aren't useless though! You can run them as XV8 Commanders.

Thank god commander spam is gone then

For sure! But it's still good to have one immediately if this box is your first purchase

ValentineGames wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

If you played tau you would soon learn to avoid crisis suit like plague. Those are newbie traps. Total crap unit that's seriously overpriced.

Oh and commissar from IG box might just as well be thrown to garbage bin for use it has. Even with change in FAQ it's still bad option.

*rolls eyes*
Yeah ok we get. Everything sucks all the time

if another unit is 0.33% more effective for the points, the other units are a hot mess and suck. one of the rules of Dakkadakka

ValentineGames wrote:

Stux wrote:
He's kind of right on Crisis. If you have new people playing 1k ishgames based on starter sets, the Tau player gets seriously outclassed if they run Crisis.

They aren't useless though! You can run them as XV8 Commanders.

Thank god commander spam is gone then

...in Matched Play, Battleforged Armies. I realize that's what people tend to shoot for, but it's not a great metric for starting players.

That said, SC Tau can also be built as 2 Patrol Detachments straight out of the box, so you have 2 Commanders and 1 spare Crisis Suit not being used. Depending on your group, you could proxy Crisis Suits as HYMP Broadsides - give them the Iridium Armor front plate, stack up the missile pods and give it twin plasma.

Interesting topic here -- I would've only thought of the Start Collecting boxes in terms of the cash saved against buying individual kits, not really taking into account the competitive value of the miniatures. It kinda adds an element of speculation to how much value for money the SC boxes are, since the competitive value of the units in the boxes will fluctuate with FAQs, Chapter Approved and other meta changes, etc.

 nurgle5 wrote:
Interesting topic here -- I would've only thought of the Start Collecting boxes in terms of the cash saved against buying individual kits, not really taking into account the competitive value of the miniatures. It kinda adds an element of speculation to how much value for money the SC boxes are, since the competitive value of the units in the boxes will fluctuate with FAQs, Chapter Approved and other meta changes, etc.

Yeah, I honestly think that the competitive value of the units is a bigger factor than the cost savings. Scions might be the best SC box of all, because it's a huge cost savings and if you're building a Tempestus Scions army, the units aren't subject to rule of 3 (troops and dedicated transports) and they're units you'd be willing to spam anyways, aside from the Commissar. Given how expensive Scions are by themselves, you might as well just buy the SC for the Scions and use the extra Taurox for other AM units like Bullgryns.

The Start Collecting Blood Angels Box is a bad box.

10 man Tactical Squad is mediocre. Nobody takes Tacticals. You could however, paint them as Sternguard Veterans.

1 Terminator Captain with Storm Bolter and Thunderhammer. Not really usefull now that BA players take the Angel Wing + TH + Storm Shield captain.

Baal Predator is an iffy choice. 24 " inch range on 12 Shot Twin Linked Assault cannon, + 36 inch bolter sponsons or 8 inch flamers on main and sponsons. you could go on ebay and try to get the predator autocanon/lascannon or try to turn the Predator into a razorback.

Stux wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Stux wrote:
He's kind of right on Crisis. If you have new people playing 1k ishgames based on starter sets, the Tau player gets seriously outclassed if they run Crisis.

They aren't useless though! You can run them as XV8 Commanders.

Thank god commander spam is gone then

For sure! But it's still good to have one immediately if this box is your first purchase

And people are ok that instead of buying high cost single models that they have to buy, someone just picks a proxy model that has different size and load outs? I ain't sure that happens very often.

I recently got back in to 40k, and I started with a DI box and converted my Primaris to Deathwatch. I then bought the Deathwatch SC box and I'm happy with what I got. Came with Artemis, 10 Vets and a Ven Dread (and a DW upgrade sprue). Pricing everything out individually, the Dread is essentially free.

All together, the SC provided some nice flexibility for the army I'm building.

I'm not sure how the SC would do as a stand alone option (probably not well) but it was a great way to flesh things out for me and the value was worth it IMO.

I don't know how the other SC are, but they really seem to follow the theme of their name -- in that it's a way to start, but you'll need to get some additional items for a more balanced/complete list.

In the end, IMO -- get what you think you will like and build on it over time!

Karol wrote:

And people are ok that instead of buying high cost single models that they have to buy, someone just picks a proxy model that has different size and load outs? I ain't sure that happens very often.

There are three different commanders - one is wearing XV8 armour the same as regular crisis suits and you can give them correct loadout.

The taller commanders are XV85 and XV86 and they have different datasheets.

Karol wrote:

Stux wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Stux wrote:
He's kind of right on Crisis. If you have new people playing 1k ishgames based on starter sets, the Tau player gets seriously outclassed if they run Crisis.

They aren't useless though! You can run them as XV8 Commanders.

Thank god commander spam is gone then

For sure! But it's still good to have one immediately if this box is your first purchase

And people are ok that instead of buying high cost single models that they have to buy, someone just picks a proxy model that has different size and load outs? I ain't sure that happens very often.

Is there that much of a size difference between the commander and a regular XV8 suit? Plenty of people are ok with non-WYSIWYG in terms of wargear, unless youre in a tournament or something.

A commander wearing XV8 armour (for which there is a datasheet) is exactly the same as a crisis suit.

The new XV85 Enforcer armour is a lot taller - about 50% taller.

JMAvariant wrote:

Nobody takes Tacticals.

Wrong

Karol wrote:

Stux wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Stux wrote:
He's kind of right on Crisis. If you have new people playing 1k ishgames based on starter sets, the Tau player gets seriously outclassed if they run Crisis.

They aren't useless though! You can run them as XV8 Commanders.

Thank god commander spam is gone then

For sure! But it's still good to have one immediately if this box is your first purchase

And people are ok that instead of buying high cost single models that they have to buy, someone just picks a proxy model that has different size and load outs? I ain't sure that happens very often.

For the longest time, Broadsides were just Crisis suits with metal rail guns glued to the back, and commanders were just Crisis suits with maybe a different head option. Just because GW wants to put out a new model doesn’t mean the old models are invalid, nor should subbing the new suits if you want them to represent commanders/broadsides if you can tweak them to look like they have the right loadout.

Wow, how many people don't know that a commander in a regular crisis suit has its own datasheet?

JMAvariant wrote:
The Start Collecting Blood Angels Box is a bad box.

10 man Tactical Squad is mediocre. Nobody takes Tacticals. You could however, paint them as Sternguard Veterans.

1 Terminator Captain with Storm Bolter and Thunderhammer. Not really usefull now that BA players take the Angel Wing + TH + Storm Shield captain.

Baal Predator is an iffy choice. 24 " inch range on 12 Shot Twin Linked Assault cannon, + 36 inch bolter sponsons or 8 inch flamers on main and sponsons. you could go on ebay and try to get the predator autocanon/lascannon or try to turn the Predator into a razorback.

it's a good box for the money. Can't say I necessarily disagree with the Captain but the Tactical squad are one of the few kits that come with a Heavy Flamer, which BA can take instead of other heavy weapons. Maybe not great in a Tac squad sitting at the back of a field but a nice deterrent to charges if you're closer in for rapid fire. Worst case scenario they're nice blinged out bodies for other BA units.

As to the Predator... Unless I'm missing something, you'd actually have to do less work to turn it into a Razorback than to build a Predator. I don't see where "try to turn it he Predator into a razorback" comes into it.

I'm definitely going to pick up a box at some point. I've got a spare banner from the BA Assault Terminator squad that might look good on the Captain model too...

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Wow, how many people don't know that a commander in a regular crisis suit has its own datasheet?

You'd think it would be the other way around. What? You mean there are non-Commanders in Crisis Suits?

The Ork one would be fantastic if Deff Dreads are worth a damn in the next codex. Would be nice to get a warboss or big mek instead of the painboy though since hes not an HQ (though maybe its pointing to him being on in the codex?)

craggy wrote:

JMAvariant wrote:
The Start Collecting Blood Angels Box is a bad box.

10 man Tactical Squad is mediocre. Nobody takes Tacticals. You could however, paint them as Sternguard Veterans.

1 Terminator Captain with Storm Bolter and Thunderhammer. Not really usefull now that BA players take the Angel Wing + TH + Storm Shield captain.

Baal Predator is an iffy choice. 24 " inch range on 12 Shot Twin Linked Assault cannon, + 36 inch bolter sponsons or 8 inch flamers on main and sponsons. you could go on ebay and try to get the predator autocanon/lascannon or try to turn the Predator into a razorback.

it's a good box for the money. Can't say I necessarily disagree with the Captain but the Tactical squad are one of the few kits that come with a Heavy Flamer, which BA can take instead of other heavy weapons. Maybe not great in a Tac squad sitting at the back of a field but a nice deterrent to charges if you're closer in for rapid fire. Worst case scenario they're nice blinged out bodies for other BA units.

As to the Predator... Unless I'm missing something, you'd actually have to do less work to turn it into a Razorback than to build a Predator. I don't see where "try to turn it he Predator into a razorback" comes into it.

I'm definitely going to pick up a box at some point. I've got a spare banner from the BA Assault Terminator squad that might look good on the Captain model too...

for $72, you are getting a $50 box of Predator lite, + $38.95 of a 10 man tactical squad, + a $25 dollar terminator. So around a 115$ value for $72. For that 72$, a 10 man squad is 130 points + a Baal Predator at 166 points with a Terminator Captain to top it at around 500 points.

Now the question is do you really want to use that Terminator Captain.

On the other hand, you could buy 1 x 5 Hellblasters ($20)+ random HQ (anywhere from 7 to $11)+ Primaris Ancient ($11) + 10 man Squad of tactical (variable price) from ebay for less and have a good starter for an BA Gunline with the Standard of Sacrifice artifact.

I think the best SC box is Necrons.

You are going to use everything in that box, until you swap out the Necron vehicle.

Stux wrote:
I've been thinking about starting Nids recently actually, but the Start Collecting is putting me off a bit...

It's an example of one of those that is great value on paper, but actually kind of awkward and not the best starting point unless you want to go down a very specific kind of list build.

Trygons are cool sure, but the guy makes up the bulk of the value of the kit and is not really that important to a new Tyranid player. Likewise, the Broodlord and Genestealers seem to be good units sure, but Stealers aren't really core Nids in my opinion. They are sort of the Tempestus Scions to Imperial Guard as it were.

Just a weird selection of units in my opinion!

A perfect box to start out for me would probably be:

Hive Tyrant
Gaunts (1 of either Horma or Terma)
Hive/Tyrant Guard

Or maybe

Hive Tyrant
Carnofex
Termagants
Hormagaunts

The box is.....ok. The Trygon is a good centerpiece model, and there are reasonably competitive ways to use it. Genestealers show up in a lot of builds, the Broodlord has his place, and they can be used as allied 'stealer Cult units.

So all of the models have a place in a Nid collection. The box is a good value and all the parts of it will see play.

The issue is that the box isn't close to enough to actually start playing. The box is 390 points. Upgrading the Trygon could push it to 400. A beginning player would want to add a bunch of stealers and some Venomthropes to try to play the box, and wont get a lot of value buying a second box.

orks sc was decent in dollar amount wise, but terrible in points wise. idea being close to a starting army (500ish range) orks were no where close

JMAvariant wrote:

craggy wrote:

JMAvariant wrote:
The Start Collecting Blood Angels Box is a bad box.

10 man Tactical Squad is mediocre. Nobody takes Tacticals. You could however, paint them as Sternguard Veterans.

1 Terminator Captain with Storm Bolter and Thunderhammer. Not really usefull now that BA players take the Angel Wing + TH + Storm Shield captain.

Baal Predator is an iffy choice. 24 " inch range on 12 Shot Twin Linked Assault cannon, + 36 inch bolter sponsons or 8 inch flamers on main and sponsons. you could go on ebay and try to get the predator autocanon/lascannon or try to turn the Predator into a razorback.

it's a good box for the money. Can't say I necessarily disagree with the Captain but the Tactical squad are one of the few kits that come with a Heavy Flamer, which BA can take instead of other heavy weapons. Maybe not great in a Tac squad sitting at the back of a field but a nice deterrent to charges if you're closer in for rapid fire. Worst case scenario they're nice blinged out bodies for other BA units.

As to the Predator... Unless I'm missing something, you'd actually have to do less work to turn it into a Razorback than to build a Predator. I don't see where "try to turn it he Predator into a razorback" comes into it.

I'm definitely going to pick up a box at some point. I've got a spare banner from the BA Assault Terminator squad that might look good on the Captain model too...

for $72, you are getting a $50 box of Predator lite, + $38.95 of a 10 man tactical squad, + a $25 dollar terminator. So around a 115$ value for $72. For that 72$, a 10 man squad is 130 points + a Baal Predator at 166 points with a Terminator Captain to top it at around 500 points.

Now the question is do you really want to use that Terminator Captain.

On the other hand, you could buy 1 x 5 Hellblasters ($20)+ random HQ (anywhere from 7 to $11)+ Primaris Ancient ($11) + 10 man Squad of tactical (variable price) from ebay for less and have a good starter for an BA Gunline with the Standard of Sacrifice artifact.

I think the best SC box is Necrons.

You are going to use everything in that box, until you swap out the Necron vehicle.

being able to buy used for cheaper is a damn silly argument. It's unwanted used minis of course it's cheaper! not really fair to discuss the value of a package deal of new stuff vs what you can get on ebay

now a BETTER arguement would be to note that the most dollar effective purchase for marines of just about any stripe is Betrayal at Calith, 150 bucks (USD) nets you 3 ten man tac squads (and each squad comes with a heavy bolter and missile launcher ) 1 cataphracti terminator squad, a terminator captain and a "dude with a mace and power armor" (said to be a chaplain but can also work nicely as a reasonably cheap Lt) and a contemptor dreadnought.

Thats over 800 points. pretty good deal all told I'd say

The absolute state of posters on dakka, the thread.

Not everyone wants to play ultra competitive, but WAAC style matches that must squeeze out every % of effectiveness out of its points.
Some people play the game to have fun. Yeah, fun. They don't care if another choice is is better, even marginally - if what they got is cool, they'll play it.

Wanting to have a winning army is not wanting fun? That is odd, the only way for your random type of buying&having fun with it method works would be, if you were 100% sure that all the people playing against you will be buying their models the same way. If only 10% go for optimised build, it stops being a valid method of buying because each time you play vs people with normal lists you will lose and have 0 fun. This accumulates and will make others optimise their lists too, so if your stubborn you may end up as the only guy with a bad list, with even less chance of having fun.

Karol wrote:
Wanting to have a winning army is not wanting fun? That is odd, the only way for your random type of buying&having fun with it method works would be, if you were 100% sure that all the people playing against you will be buying their models the same way. If only 10% go for optimised build, it stops being a valid method of buying because each time you play vs people with normal lists you will lose and have 0 fun. This accumulates and will make others optimise their lists too, so if your stubborn you may end up as the only guy with a bad list, with even less chance of having fun.

worrying obsessivly about Mathhammer can get unhealthy. sometimes it's fun to just lunk whatever down and go "pew pew"

 Dr. Mills wrote:
The absolute state of posters on dakka, the thread.

Not everyone wants to play ultra competitive, but WAAC style matches that must squeeze out every % of effectiveness out of its points.
Some people play the game to have fun. Yeah, fun. They don't care if another choice is is better, even marginally - if what they got is cool, they'll play it.

I see what you're saying and agree to an extent, but there 'fun' will run out if they are losing all the time. Having start collecting boxes be competitively useful and well rounded hurts no one and helps new player especially. Also playing competitively can be a lot of fun. Fun is subjective. A well balanced rule set alongside well balanced start collecting boxes is a great thing. It also helps sales of models if their rules are good.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wanting to have a winning army is not wanting fun? That is odd, the only way for your random type of buying&having fun with it method works would be, if you were 100% sure that all the people playing against you will be buying their models the same way. If only 10% go for optimised build, it stops being a valid method of buying because each time you play vs people with normal lists you will lose and have 0 fun. This accumulates and will make others optimise their lists too, so if your stubborn you may end up as the only guy with a bad list, with even less chance of having fun.

worrying obsessivly about Mathhammer can get unhealthy. sometimes it's fun to just lunk whatever down and go "pew pew"

Tried that after 30 games, no one wants to play with me, because it is "not fun to play agaist my army". It has nothing to do with math hammer, I didn't expect my army to be the best in the world, but I would at least like to have most of my army at the end of turn 4.

But they are just supposed to be an affordable way to buy miniatures.
You're not gonna get a start collecting box with 4 lascannon Predators.

ValentineGames wrote:
But they are just supposed to be an affordable way to buy miniatures.
You're not gonna get a start collecting box with 4 lascannon Predators.

Agreed, and it seems that the consensus is that most of the boxes provide good value $ wise, which is what a new player is going to care about. Per usual dakka discussion, it has since devolved into balance and competition whine

An old volkswagon beetle is good value $wise, unless you're competing in a competitive nascar/formula1 event. In which case, you're probably going to feel taken by the salesman.

Katherine had the right idea, the IG defence force is a good starting point for IG players. Otherwise, if 2 people choose a start collecting box to play against each other, and one person choose the IG box, they're probably not going to have a good day. Assuming they're 'casual' garage gamers that don't care about the codexes and are just playing with what they've bought for the same amount.

A volkswagon is never a good buy, because it either it is post flood, damaged engine etc or it is good, and then people will steal it soon.

Agreed, and it seems that the consensus is that most of the boxes provide good value $ wise, which is what a new player is going to care about. Per usual dakka discussion, it has since devolved into balance and competition whine

See this is something I do not get. If you are starting you want an optimal list of what ever the local people play, you don't want any units that take you away from the goal. Who cares if a starting box gives you a "free" HQ in terminator armor, when you will never use the model. The model is free, but it is also has a netto worth of 0$. So as long as the non free units are ok, you are buying stuff in bulk without discount. An IG player is going to use dudes and he is going to use a Russ. But then there are boxs like the BAs. No BA list runs tactical, they all run scouts, termintor HQ are never used and baal preds are horrible, I don't even know if they come with normal pred parts. So a new BA players is foolish, buy what is advertised to him as start collecting set, plays 2-3 games and starts asking himself what the hell did he just spend his money on. And while his friends who got lucky with their starter sets are buying extra stuff and moving in to 1000pts, he is starting from scratch. And this means he will be late for the time when they hit 1500 and 2000pts, unless he has a lot more money then them. It maybe good for GW, because this would sell them more stuff, and glue the player to their product because few people would quit after spending 100-150$ on an army, but it is not a fun expiriance for the player.

 Billagio wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
But they are just supposed to be an affordable way to buy miniatures.
You're not gonna get a start collecting box with 4 lascannon Predators.

Agreed, and it seems that the consensus is that most of the boxes provide good value $ wise, which is what a new player is going to care about. Per usual dakka discussion, it has since devolved into balance and competition whine

But thing is it's not good value for $ if they aren't actually useful.

tneva82 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
But they are just supposed to be an affordable way to buy miniatures.
You're not gonna get a start collecting box with 4 lascannon Predators.

Agreed, and it seems that the consensus is that most of the boxes provide good value $ wise, which is what a new player is going to care about. Per usual dakka discussion, it has since devolved into balance and competition whine

But thing is it's not good value for $ if they aren't actually useful.

Most new players dont' care about what's useful. They care about what looks cool as they learn to play.

Ok, it feels as if were are talking about two different games here. The only situation when people could not care about what units were good or not, would be if w40k was cheap like vodka. And GW is many things, but cheap is not one of those things. It is in fact very expensive, which means aside for a super small minortiy of super rich people, the cost of what you buy matters. People aren't starting the armies they like, because they don't have the money to buy them. Main reason why so many people play marines too, because they are cheaper then something like eldar, IG or tyranids.

The game is not actually that expensive. People make it expensive for themselves by buying things in bulk rather than piecemeal. But no, main reason people buy marines is because they're pushed the hardest. The stars of the show usually with the most varied kits. Nobody who starts new is going to knowledgeable enough about 2nd hand prices unless they were shown it by someone else or been into the hobby long enough to learn about it themselves.

dude what are you talking about a basic army is around 700$, and some cost twice as much. GW seems to be nerfing some armies on a half a year basis, so if you want to play you have to buy it in the first month post a CA or codex faq. But lets say I decided to not buy any food at school, no movies, stoped using my phone and lie to my parents I bought my monthly tram pass. 30$ per month means I could buy a unit or HQ every two months. If I picked marines, pirated the book, did not paint anything and used friends glue etc. I would take 2 and a half years to buy an army, lets say I also spend all my christmas money on w40k, and that I am pre comfirmation and this in the end gives me 60$ per box per year. It is 1 year of buying stuff, and the army will be unplayable till month 6-8 of collecting. And in the mean time GW may nerf kill the army, rise the basic game cost higher, add obligatory center pice models to the army I picked etc.

With all respect, that's down to individual circumstance. If you build steadily, say 500pts at a time, finish that then move onto the next 500, you'll find it much more manageable. No you can't have big battles yet, but that's half the satisfaction of the hobby, building to a goal. If it takes a while so be it.

tneva82 wrote:

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

If you played tau you would soon learn to avoid crisis suit like plague. Those are newbie traps. Total crap unit that's seriously overpriced.

Oh and commissar from IG box might just as well be thrown to garbage bin for use it has. Even with change in FAQ it's still bad option.

But there's the error you and the other waacists make.... I don't just play Tau, I COLLECT tau.

They are "start COLLECTING" boxes, not "start netlisting, mathhammering, game breaking, rules lawyering, fun killing" boxes.

People like you are poison in this hobby.

I started playing about 18 months ago with a friend (7th ed), we both collected tau (funnily enough we both started with a SC box, what fething noobs). I loved the infantry, i loved the crisis suits but disliked the bigger models like the riptide and stormsurge even said to him "id like an all infantry, all crisis suit army". Played our fist games against each other, learned the game, added models here and there, he went down the bigger suit route, i didn't, still had pretty good games, even with our terrible rule of cool loadouts.
Now here's where a guy like you pops up, local FLGS TG telling me i "need" a riptide for the upcoming tourney we had entered, telling me my crisis suits arent "optimal" so might aswell drop them despite the fact id spent weeks painting them to a good standard, telling me i "cant run just one" riptide, "you need to drop the fire warriors and take a drone net"
So i bought and i built all of these units and fielded my grey tide abomination and guess what? i still lost every game, but worst, i didn't have fun pushing my unpainted ugly models round the table no matter how effective they were.

It eventually turned me off Tau and i switched to marines, deciding id only build what i liked and only play what i painted; Ive never looked twice at an assback (ugliest most bland model ever), Girlyman, or a pot of macragge blue and im having more fun and success in this hobby than ever.

TLDR; Stop ruining this awesome multifaceted hobby with your constant WAAC diatribe. The start collecting boxes are legit. Period.

Karol wrote:
dude what are you talking about a basic army is around 700$, and some cost twice as much. GW seems to be nerfing some armies on a half a year basis, so if you want to play you have to buy it in the first month post a CA or codex faq. But lets say I decided to not buy any food at school, no movies, stoped using my phone and lie to my parents I bought my monthly tram pass. 30$ per month means I could buy a unit or HQ every two months. If I picked marines, pirated the book, did not paint anything and used friends glue etc. I would take 2 and a half years to buy an army, lets say I also spend all my christmas money on w40k, and that I am pre comfirmation and this in the end gives me 60$ per box per year. It is 1 year of buying stuff, and the army will be unplayable till month 6-8 of collecting. And in the mean time GW may nerf kill the army, rise the basic game cost higher, add obligatory center pice models to the army I picked etc.

From your last few posts, it sounds like:
- you are young and on limited funds
- you are in a country where GW models are comparatively expensive
- you play in a *very* competitive environment

This is not everyone's experience of the hobby.

tneva82 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
But they are just supposed to be an affordable way to buy miniatures.
You're not gonna get a start collecting box with 4 lascannon Predators.

Agreed, and it seems that the consensus is that most of the boxes provide good value $ wise, which is what a new player is going to care about. Per usual dakka discussion, it has since devolved into balance and competition whine

But thing is it's not good value for $ if they aren't actually useful.

Not useful to who?
The predator spammers who demand you spend equal money to earn the right to play?

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

If you played tau you would soon learn to avoid crisis suit like plague. Those are newbie traps. Total crap unit that's seriously overpriced.

Oh and commissar from IG box might just as well be thrown to garbage bin for use it has. Even with change in FAQ it's still bad option.

But there's the error you and the other waacists make.... I don't just play Tau, I COLLECT tau.

They are "start COLLECTING" boxes, not "start netlisting, mathhammering, game breaking, rules lawyering, fun killing" boxes.

People like you are poison in this hobby.

So true. So very very true.

tneva82 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
But they are just supposed to be an affordable way to buy miniatures.
You're not gonna get a start collecting box with 4 lascannon Predators.

Agreed, and it seems that the consensus is that most of the boxes provide good value $ wise, which is what a new player is going to care about. Per usual dakka discussion, it has since devolved into balance and competition whine

But thing is it's not good value for $ if they aren't actually useful.

Ok but a new player (the target these boxes are made for btw, not players looking to spam them to build out their already 3000+ point collection) are going to at first care about whats cool looking for their army and gets them good value. Once they use these models then they can look into buying 4 las preds if they want to be competitive. The point is to draw new players into the hobby with a good deal, not make it so you can buy 3 of them and have a tournament ready list.

Otherwise, if youre a new player and walk into GW with your buddy who also hasnt played before, how do you know where to start? You start looking at models, see whats neat with no clue how they perform. At this point you can pick up the SC boxes, or the GW guy will recommend some to you. Do you want to trust his judgement? Hes probably not going to recommend the best stuff to you either. Not every new player wants to be a tournament player, they want to build and play with cool models with their friends. Id wager that most players (myself included) dont play at stores anyway

Karol wrote:
A volkswagon is never a good buy, because it either it is post flood, damaged engine etc or it is good, and then people will steal it soon.

Agreed, and it seems that the consensus is that most of the boxes provide good value $ wise, which is what a new player is going to care about. Per usual dakka discussion, it has since devolved into balance and competition whine

See this is something I do not get. If you are starting you want an optimal list of what ever the local people play, you don't want any units that take you away from the goal. Who cares if a starting box gives you a "free" HQ in terminator armor, when you will never use the model. The model is free, but it is also has a netto worth of 0$. So as long as the non free units are ok, you are buying stuff in bulk without discount. An IG player is going to use dudes and he is going to use a Russ. But then there are boxs like the BAs. No BA list runs tactical, they all run scouts, termintor HQ are never used and baal preds are horrible, I don't even know if they come with normal pred parts. So a new BA players is foolish, buy what is advertised to him as start collecting set, plays 2-3 games and starts asking himself what the hell did he just spend his money on. And while his friends who got lucky with their starter sets are buying extra stuff and moving in to 1000pts, he is starting from scratch. And this means he will be late for the time when they hit 1500 and 2000pts, unless he has a lot more money then them. It maybe good for GW, because this would sell them more stuff, and glue the player to their product because few people would quit after spending 100-150$ on an army, but it is not a fun expiriance for the player.

This attitude is the reason I stay far away from any sort of 40K tournament and most other players at my local FLGS. I love the SC boxes as they are (well, the Eldar SC annoys me slightly because it doesn’t have Guardians or Dire Avengers instead of wraithguard, but eh), especially the Tau set. In fact, if it hadn’t been for the AdMech SC, I wouldn’t have started that army. And *I* bought the BA set for the Baal Predator, specifically.

Do you want to trust his judgement

No, the basic rule is that you do not trust anyone outside of family, and even that changes when your older. Can't trust your brother or sister, when your both 40 and/or have your own kids, because then you care more about your own family then your own siblings, and are willing to screw them over no matter what.

For the IG, I've just told new players to paint and use the commissar as an officer.

Look, all the SC offer a discount on the contents compared to buying them separately. If you just want to collect and paint, or play casual, they're ALL FINE.

Some of them are far better from a competitive perspective, under the current meta. We all know the meta can and will change over time. Judging them solely on the current meta isn't a good way to go about it. Crisis Suits were far more useful when SC Tau first came out. Nearly all of SC boxes run into hard limits in terms of competitive play (from rule of 3 if nothing else), so they're almost all poor for comp players in the long run. Some are bad for WAAC comp play regardless, but they're still only a portion of market segment. They might be the 'whales' of the hobby (the folks who individually spend the most), but they probably don't comprise the majority of sales.

Let's go back to the OP. What's the 'best' SC box? I can think of 5 criteria for judgement:

1.) Money saved vs individual purchase
2.) Points gained for growing that army
3.) Unit effectiveness
4.) Coolness of models
5.) Potential for repeat purchase to capitalize on points 1-3.

Based on those criteria, I'd say SC Tempestus Scions is the best SC box.

1.) Large cost savings - Scions are expensive troop units in terms of money and the bundle of 2 Scions boxes + Taurox is big savings even ignoring the Commissar.
2.) Can be built as a range of points from 250-ish to near 500 fully kitted out
3.) Scions and Tauroxes might not be the best AM units, but they're good and bring lots of accurate plasma and heavy weapons.
4.) Scions look great and Tauroxes are different from the AM aesthetic (some hate, some love)
5.) If you want a pure Scions army, this box is all you need because of 1-3, and even a regular AM army won't hurt buying 3 of these.

Start Collecting boxes only look like a good deal because GW's prices are so obscene to begin with. They are poor value as bundles, especially bundles targeting new players, because they're all priced roughly at what those kits should be when sold separately- not to mention no newbie should need to face such a high barrier to entry.

Thats something we can all agree on