I'm playing in a local tournament this weekend and was looking for pointers on beating DE. I have very little experience with them and had a few questions.


1. What should by priority targets be?

2. What are some of their better strategems to be aware of?

3. What are their primary synergy strategies? How do DE armies generally work?

4. What units can I expect to see in every DE tournament list

Commenting to follow.

OP, you might get better information if you tell us (them) what points you're playing and what army you're using.

I would expect to see lots of flimsy vehicles that are going to try to stay out of your LoS.

Drukhari vehicles are not flimsy on a per point basis.

I would prioritize their transports. If you can put the kabalites on foot, you can kill them before blasters become an issue.

To stand a good chance, you're going to have to read the Drukhari stratagems yourself and then ask which ones your opponent has access to. Not doing this will put you at a severe disadvantage, as they have a stratagem that cancels other stratagems.

The only units you can count on seeing every time are disintegrator ravagers. Some lists have all raiders for transports, others use all venoms. Some have jets, some don't. Some have talos and grotesques, some don't. All these units listed are busted as feth, though.

Background information,

This will be a 2000 tournament using the first three scenarios from Warzone Atomic Empire, missions are focused on killing the most units, with some objectives mixed in.

I'm playing a cadian brigade with 1 castellan knight



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Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari vehicles are not flimsy on a per point basis.

I would prioritize their transports. If you can put the kabalites on foot, you can kill them before blasters become an issue.

To stand a good chance, you're going to have to read the Drukhari stratagems yourself and then ask which ones your opponent has access to. Not doing this will put you at a severe disadvantage, as they have a stratagem that cancels other stratagems.

The only units you can count on seeing every time are disintegrator ravagers. Some lists have all raiders for transports, others use all venoms. Some have jets, some don't. Some have talos and grotesques, some don't. All these units listed are busted as feth, though.

By busted do you mean OP?

Drukhari vehicles are more durable against the weaponry that works well against other vehicles, and less durable against the weaponry that works poorly against other vehicles. They all sport 5++ invuln saves, some (the venom and both flyers) have a -1 to hit and they have another 2CP -1 to hit stratagem. They're T5, which means S6 is identical to S9 against them. It is worth noting that all these (the invuln save and the - to hit) go away in melee, leaving a drukhari vehicle a T5 model with a 4+ armor save.

Because this busts up the plasma/lascannon meta that was previously in place to target the 'standard' T7 3+ vehicle common in other armies, most drukhari lists feature a lot of these models.

They're commonly armed with either their own version of the anti-T7 3+ gun (the dark lance) or with Disintegrators, which is a S5 AP-3 D2 gun that fires 3 shots - armies with 2 wound models suffer heavily when these guns are spammed.

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines, many people in metas where Drukhari are known to be common take weapons that gain bonuses to hit vs Fly, like Icarus Arrays, Hydras and Stalkers. High rate of fire S6/S7 weaponry like Kastelan Robots, assault cannons and some autohit weapons like Hellhounds can be good at clearing them out.


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Alternative tactical take, I suppose:

Give up now, they're impossibly broken, never attend a tournament again, burn your models.

/s

Yes, busted = OP. The whole codex is really OP and needs massive nerfs.

You can beat them, but it's uphill the whole way.

Drukhari are an army where you need to devastate their vehicles early, or they will wipe the floor with you. Assault cannons and autocannons are their Kryptonite.
Forget about high AP weapons, ROF is the way to go vs them. Remember most of their means to keep you in melee only work against "Infantry" so transports of your own like razorbacks aren't too shabby. Expect to be rushed if they are running Wyches or Wracks/Grots/Talos.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Drukhari are an army where you need to devastate their vehicles early, or they will wipe the floor with you. Assault cannons and autocannons are their Kryptonite.
Forget about high AP weapons, ROF is the way to go vs them. Remember most of their means to keep you in melee only work against "Infantry" so transports of your own like razorbacks aren't too shabby. Expect to be rushed if they are running Wyches or Wracks/Grots/Talos.

The problem is that this is getting into heavy list tailoring, which isn't viable. That's why Drukhari are so broken. My buddy brings 100 wounds of vehicles at 2K. How is anyone supposed to "devastate" that?

Martel732 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Drukhari are an army where you need to devastate their vehicles early, or they will wipe the floor with you. Assault cannons and autocannons are their Kryptonite.
Forget about high AP weapons, ROF is the way to go vs them. Remember most of their means to keep you in melee only work against "Infantry" so transports of your own like razorbacks aren't too shabby. Expect to be rushed if they are running Wyches or Wracks/Grots/Talos.

The problem is that this is getting into heavy list tailoring, which isn't viable. That's why Drukhari are so broken. My buddy brings 100 wounds of vehicles at 2K. How is anyone supposed to "devastate" that?

Just a general observation. Its good advice generally. If you have more autocannon or ML equivalents instead of lascannons, you'd fare better against them. Considering every time I've played them this edition they knew what I was bringing, and I had a vague idea of what they had, I've done fine. But Drukhari are incredibly underpriced for their durability and firepower in their vehicles, your friend is maximizing on that. But still, they aren't winning tournaments yet...so I'm not sure what other folks play vs them to win. I can only speak to it as Necrons or Space Marines.

They're getting damn close, and from what I saw, causing HUGE casualties in the process.

Martel732 wrote:
They're getting damn close, and from what I saw, causing HUGE casualties in the process.

I believe you, trust me. They seem like a faction where going first is going to be a big benefit.

Drukhari are definitely winning tournaments, lol.

Agreed. Also, I'd argue that autocannon-type weapons are NOT list tailoring, as they are optimal vs a LARGE number of lists. Assault cannons are a lot harder to field on efficient platforms. That's why I called it list tailoring. But seriously, make a list of targets with invuln saves now. I've stopped using lascannons because of it.


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meleti wrote:
Drukhari are definitely winning tournaments, lol.

I didn't want to say this without having the first hand knowledge.

Martel732 wrote:
Agreed. Also, I'd argue that autocannon-type weapons are NOT list tailoring, as they are optimal vs a LARGE number of lists. Assault cannons are a lot harder to field on efficient platforms. That's why I called it list tailoring. But seriously, make a list of targets with invuln saves now. I've stopped using lascannons because of it.


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meleti wrote:
Drukhari are definitely winning tournaments, lol.

I didn't want to say this without having the first hand knowledge.

I'd argue that successfully list tailoring is the biggest thing that separates a mid-table competitive list with one that actually wins the event...because you rarely win the event or place very high without guessing what most people will be bringing.

If you bring what everyone else will be bringing, you end up in the middle of the pack. If you bring something that's theoretically solid in a pure "opponent roulette" environment where you might encounter an elite infantry army, a horde, a vehicle heavy army, etc...then you're going to end up having tough matchups against skew lists like the aforementioned 100 wounds of T5 5++ vehicles you just mentioned.

Drukhari are not alone in their heavy use of units with invulns 1 worse than their armor saves and Fly. Taking a unit like the anti-flyer marine plane with the missiles and twin autocannon would be a risky list-tailoring move if you were only going to see dividends against Drukhari. But that also works well against shining spears, Custode captains, Harlequins, Taloi in Coven Drukhari lists, Nid Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes of Tzeentch....

Drukhari and Harlequins probably won't be huge fans of the addition of Armiger Helverins to the current competitive meta. A vehicle with relatively solid defenses against both Disintegrators and Dark Lances thanks to its invuln (13 dissies or 12 DLs to take one down) with 4D3 S7 AP-1 D3 shots on two guns so you can shoot at two venoms with each one. And if you do roll a 6+++ on one of those wounds to survive with Black Heart, it's got a stubber to strip the last wound off. And if you do get a venom into combat with one, it just starts kicking the crap out of you with S6 feet and 3+WS.

That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.

OP, what's your 2k list look like?

mass small fire and flamers will do great. Close combat does well against kabalites and the vehicles, but Grotesques and Talos/Cronos are not to be messed with in close combat at all. If you have anti-vehicle weaponry, fire them at the monsters, not the vehicles.

Also if there is a haemonculus on foot, watchout for the vexator mask relic. Once per fight phase they can choose a unit to fight last. can really mess up your day if you were counting on swinging first in combat. But with cadians, you probably werent thinking about too much close combat.

Martel732 wrote:
That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.

So when this guy says he's going to a competitive event with lots of drukhari and you tell him not to bring strong units that work well in the meta against drukhari because that's list tailoring, what is that?

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.

So when this guy says he's going to a competitive event with lots of drukhari and you tell him not to bring strong units that work well in the meta against drukhari because that's list tailoring, what is that?

Keep in mind, all of Martel's contributions to this thread amount to "DE are OP! GAHHH!"

Not exactly on-point nor helpful.

It depends a bit on what sort of dark eldar you are facing. Let us asume it is one og the 95% mobile boats long range weapons.

First of, dark lances are everywhere.

Two, dark eldar have a lot of poison. Do some math hammer so you know how many shots it takes to kill one of your models. 40 shots might not be as bad as it sounds.

Three, when your toys are dead do not despair. Regular weapons are much better vs them then other armies.

Ok, actually trying to be helpful now.

1. Consider taking Grenade Launchers on all your infantry squads. They are cheap, S6 vs T5 vehicles, and do d3 damage. Oh, and they can also double as solid dakka vs t3 squads (of which there will be many).

2. You're taking a Brigade, so that probably means Scout Sentinels or Hellhounds. Give the Scout Sentinels some Heavy Flamers, they're excellent weapons against Eldar of all varieties.

3. I would definitely consider some Armigers to fill out a Super-Heavy detachment with your Castellan. I'm not really sure if Warglaives or Helverins are better here, but both seem to have very strong merits. Helverins have outstanding guns for taking on Drukhari, while Warglaives provide a mobile assault component your army is pretty much guaranteed to lack. This also gets your Castellan a household tradition, which is nice.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, busted = OP. The whole codex is really OP and needs massive nerfs.

You can beat them, but it's uphill the whole way.

that nerf will come in next faqs/Ca dont worry, Gw showed the will to keep things under control, better for Drukari enjoy actual codex until they can cause soon it will be revised.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's playing the meta, not list tailoring. They are related, but very different.

So when this guy says he's going to a competitive event with lots of drukhari and you tell him not to bring strong units that work well in the meta against drukhari because that's list tailoring, what is that?

Reread my posts.

For clarification, my meta isn't necessarily flooded with DE, but I know there are some and it's the army I have the least experience with. Generally speaking I'm trying to build a good TAC list

As a dark eldar player I definitely know they are beatable, don't let the fact that they are doing well at the moment blind you to their huge weaknesses:

Their infantry will die very quickly if it is caught on foot (they are guardsmen with a 6+ fnp)
Their vehicles are also susceptible to lighter weaponry than most vehicles (you can do a surprising number of wounds with bolters, even lasguns wound them on 5+)
Against things that are t8 it becomes quite hard for de weapons to kill you quickly unless they dump a lot of their anti vehicle weapons into them, and at that point most of their anti tank is in the ravagers and warrior units.

My advice would be to focus down the raiders if you take a very infantry heavy list (you don't care that much about dark lances killing guardsmen, but you do care about the splinter weapons). If you take lots of vehicles then attempt to deploy them in such a way that the blasters will not be in range of them (they have an 18" range and the raiders move 14" so its unlikely but you might be able to with some careful measuring). Finally, remember that the warriors only rapid fire within 12" so if you can keep them outside that for at least a turn you really tone down the offensive capabilities of the army. DE rely on doing a lot of damage rapidly because they can't outlast anyone, they are just too fragile for that. If you can kill ravagers thats also a big help depending on what your list is. Venoms pose the biggest issue for guard since they are -1 to hit but they also only carry 5 infantry models so usually venom heavy armies dont have very many models overall (think like 35 warriors total).

Another thing to look out for is reaver jetbikes in cult of the red grief, they can move 18", advance 8" then charge with a reroll. So make sure you screen your vehicles well, otherwise they will get locked immediately.

Quixeemoto wrote:
As a dark eldar player I definitely know they are beatable, don't let the fact that they are doing well at the moment blind you to their huge weaknesses:

Their infantry will die very quickly if it is caught on foot (they are guardsmen with a 6+ fnp)
Their vehicles are also susceptible to lighter weaponry than most vehicles (you can do a surprising number of wounds with bolters, even lasguns wound them on 5+)
Against things that are t8 it becomes quite hard for de weapons to kill you quickly unless they dump a lot of their anti vehicle weapons into them, and at that point most of their anti tank is in the ravagers and warrior units.

My advice would be to focus down the raiders if you take a very infantry heavy list (you don't care that much about dark lances killing guardsmen, but you do care about the splinter weapons). If you take lots of vehicles then attempt to deploy them in such a way that the blasters will not be in range of them (they have an 18" range and the raiders move 14" so its unlikely but you might be able to with some careful measuring). Finally, remember that the warriors only rapid fire within 12" so if you can keep them outside that for at least a turn you really tone down the offensive capabilities of the army. DE rely on doing a lot of damage rapidly because they can't outlast anyone, they are just too fragile for that. If you can kill ravagers thats also a big help depending on what your list is. Venoms pose the biggest issue for guard since they are -1 to hit but they also only carry 5 infantry models so usually venom heavy armies dont have very many models overall (think like 35 warriors total).

Another thing to look out for is reaver jetbikes in cult of the red grief, they can move 18", advance 8" then charge with a reroll. So make sure you screen your vehicles well, otherwise they will get locked immediately.

This is good advice. ^^

Blast the Ravagers first (esp disintegrator ones vs anything with 2 wounds) or otherwise raiders/venoms full of CC monsters. Make sure that you screen your dudes well. It helps.

Drukhari player checking in.

There are a couple of current "meta" builds for Drukhari.

1. Venom Spam, often w/ Craftworld Psykers
2. Grotesque/Talos blobs

Both of these probably include a Black Heart spearhead with 3 Ravagers.

Funnily enough, the way you beat both these lists is the same, so that's good.

1. Stop building around a stratagem to win you turns/games. RIP Necrons =( Agents of Vect is shifting the meta away from what it was for a long time(at least among gatekeeper/netlists), which is a stratagem-measuring contest.

2. Leave the Lascannons at home and take more mid-strength, low-AP shooting. Hell even massed bolters are probably better bang for your buck than Lascannons.

3. Don't be afraid to ignore footslogging Kabalites once you pop their transports. The troops die to a stiff breeze, but you're probably better off using your bolters on the other Venoms. Once you take away the mobility, Drukhari are up gak creek without a paddle.

4. Bait the Drukhari player into using his own stratagems. Example? Make sure your heavy shooters can hit at least 2 super important targets, then hit one with something that looks scary to pull out Lightning-Fast Reflexes, then shoot the other thing with the rest of it.

Past that, any more advice would be army-specific, so if OP (or anyone else) wants army specific-advice, just let me know what factions you run and I'll help out as best I can.

As another few people have said, I would definitely try to fill out the castellans detachment into a full Lance with 2 armigers. It now gives CP, and if you are that worried about drukhari then 8d3 S7 ap-1 dmgd3 shots will bring the pain to their transports.

The thin with drukhari is that they are very very delicate, but bring the hurt. Try and keep a track of the enemy units and what your opponent is intending to do with them, then try to stop it.

Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt. Even the kabalites, because 6 pt models are REALLY good.

But helverins do hit them where it hurts. Mid Str, 3 dam, huge range and only -1 AP.

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

I'd take a raider over a rhino any day. The 5++ spoils a lot of AT fire, and the toughness difference is shockingly unimportant in many cases. If raiders had 7 W or so, I'd agree. But raiders are very frustrating clocking in a 10W a pop. With access to FNP. And on-demand -1 to hit.

If those babies roll hot, its GG for a lot of armies. If they don't, raiders are cheap anyway. There is no downside for the Drukhari player. I saw a guy roll 5 straight saves vs neutron lasers on turn 1 and get a turn 1 concession vs admech.

Guardsmen are so busted that even at 6 ppm, their statline is fairly sturdy. Being cheap fixes most woes in 8th.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

I'd take a raider over a rhino any day. The 5++ spoils a lot of AT fire, and the toughness difference is shockingly unimportant in many cases. If raiders had 7 W or so, I'd agree. But raiders are very frustrating clocking in a 10W a pop. With access to FNP. And on-demand -1 to hit.

If those babies roll hot, its GG for a lot of armies. If they don't, raiders are cheap anyway. There is no downside for the Drukhari player. I saw a guy roll 5 straight saves vs neutron lasers on turn 1 and get a turn 1 concession vs admech.

Only a single obsession grants them a 6+ FNP and only a single Raider can be at -1 to hit per turn and that's not a feature of the Raider, but a feature of its army. If you took a Raider instead of a Rhino for your marines, it would not have -1 to hit on it ever.

The 5+ invulnerable is nice, but in practice it ends up being the saving throw that the Raider uses because AP -1 is easy. 5+ invulnerable would be great if it had an armor save that prevented the invul from usual being the standard save. Any S5 AP-1 weapon or greater is going to be fine. The fact that you can use anti-infantry weapons on the Raider effectively really dampens its defenses. Shooting bolters at a Raider is no easier than shooting them at a Rhino, but those Heavy Bolters will work fine on a Raider but would be wasted on a Rhino.

In addition, when a Rhino is destroyed and the marines pop out to play, it's not that bad. When a Raider is destroyed, it's much worst for the Drukhari player. A Rhino only needs to survive 1-2 turns to do its job whereas the Raider would like to survive the whole match (unless there are wychs).

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

It depends on what you're shooting them with.

A Venom and a rhino both take an average of 7.7 BS3+ lascannons to take out, if the rhino doesn't have smoke popped. A raider is more durable vs lascannons taking 9.7.

Their real strength is that they ignore any AP better than -1 because they have invulns, and they treat S6-9 as basically the same (wounds them on a 3+). Where you start to see them acting more like the glass cannons you hear about is when you start looking at weapons that mitigate that advantage, like S6 AP-1 assault cannons and S7 AP-1 D2 autocannons. A rhino takes 9.67 full assault cannons and 15 autocannons. It takes 4.5 assault cannons and 6.7 autocannons to kill a venom, more than twice as fast.

Part of the reason they smashed the meta so hard initially along with necrons is that everyone had pretty much decided plasma and lascannons were the way to go to kill tanks.

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

It depends on what you're shooting them with.

A Venom and a rhino both take an average of 7.7 BS3+ lascannons to take out, if the rhino doesn't have smoke popped. A raider is more durable vs lascannons taking 9.7.

Their real strength is that they ignore any AP better than -1 because they have invulns, and they treat S6-9 as basically the same (wounds them on a 3+). Where you start to see them acting more like the glass cannons you hear about is when you start looking at weapons that mitigate that advantage, like S6 AP-1 assault cannons and S7 AP-1 D2 autocannons. A rhino takes 9.67 full assault cannons and 15 autocannons. It takes 4.5 assault cannons and 6.7 autocannons to kill a venom, more than twice as fast.

Part of the reason they smashed the meta so hard initially along with necrons is that everyone had pretty much decided plasma and lascannons were the way to go to kill tanks.

Yes, exactly. They aren't more durable, they're just more unorthodox and therefore don't require the same tools to beat as most armies.

I'd imagine that a balanced army would have some lascannons, autocannons, and assault cannons. Against Dark Eldar, you have weapons that were not planning to hunt vehicles hunting vehicles. I personally enjoy shooting Raiders/Venoms with S6 weapons (I field a lot of S6). My anti-infantry weapons have a lot more viable targets when against Dark Eldar.

Plasma is too strong to ever go away. So that's a huge advantage for the raider. I've purged lascannons out of my lists, but many in my play group think I'm nuts. I think raider treating S6-9 identically is a huge meta advantage that can't really be negated easily.

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

We're talking about durability specifically. The Raider is an awesome vehicle because it can carry an awesome weapon and it can protect its unit while allowing the unit to perform normally (or enhanced). The Raider also lacks FNP. Only when it's in the proper obsession does it have it and even then it's a 6+.

What we're talking about, survivability, is T5 10 wounds at a 4+/5++ with the ability to fly and move pretty far. Raiders are easily worth their points, but I don't think that they are exceptionally durable for their points.

They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

Also consider running a House Morton Crusader Knight. All of its guns are specialized to give Dark Eldar a huge headache.
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Rapid Fire Battle Cannon
Twin Icarus Auto Cannon

Iron Bulwark and Rotate Ion Shields will make it very difficult to kill, and you can use House Morton's Stratagem to ignore negative to hit modifiers- basically nullifying his night shields and stratagems to stack negative hit modifiers.

With the Relic Icarus Auto Cannon, you can potentially destroy three separate light skimmers per turn. The missile launcher is a better all comers choice, but if you struggle with DE, the Auto Cannon can be a good buy.

If your Dark Eldar opponent has loaded up on Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances they may really struggle to bring enough fire power to deal with the 3++ before their skimmers get shredded by the Knights weapons. Especially since the rest of your army is doing whatever it does- which is providing supporting fire and preventing Wracks and Talos Pain engines from engaging your Knight. And its not like its a complete list tailoring choice. Those guns are going to have good targets vs most opponents. See how Primarus like facing down 2 damage Gatling Cannon rounds.

Martel732 wrote:
They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

They're durable if you don't have the appropriate weapons to respond to them with, which is usually the problem and the reason why they seem durable.

You'd think anything was durable if you didn't have the right weapon. If the game was flooded with marines it might not seem so bad, but when you plan for MEQ and are then faced with something wholly different, it's going to mess up your performance. It's not because the vehicles themselves are anything special.

Disintegrators are statistically better vs IKs than lances.


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 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

They're durable if you don't have the appropriate weapons to respond to them with, which is usually the problem and the reason why they seem durable.

You'd think anything was durable if you didn't have the right weapon. If the game was flooded with marines it might not seem so bad, but when you plan for MEQ and are then faced with something wholly different, it's going to mess up your performance. It's not because the vehicles themselves are anything special.

8 points per wound is still really good. And they can't be ignored like rhinos, because they are carrying good units, not trashy marines. 8 pts per wound at T5 5++ is durable in 8th ed period.

 Kharneth wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

We're talking about durability specifically. The Raider is an awesome vehicle because it can carry an awesome weapon and it can protect its unit while allowing the unit to perform normally (or enhanced). The Raider also lacks FNP. Only when it's in the proper obsession does it have it and even then it's a 6+.

What we're talking about, survivability, is T5 10 wounds at a 4+/5++ with the ability to fly and move pretty far. Raiders are easily worth their points, but I don't think that they are exceptionally durable for their points.

I know, but they’re so very different that comparing durability isn’t very meaningful. In addition to just the unit profiles themselves, rhinos are essentially just assault unit delivery machines, the main purpose is for your guys to get out and charge something. Venoms and Raiders will just fly around with their units taking potshots at nearby enemies, assaulting or even leaving the transport tends to be a very secondary purpose for Cabals. Who cares what’s more durable against <insert favorite gun>?

Everyone’s using Venoms and no one’s using Rhinos so it’s probably not helpful to focus on what a Rhino has that a Venom doesn’t.

Martel732 wrote:
Disintegrators are statistically better vs IKs than lances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

They're durable if you don't have the appropriate weapons to respond to them with, which is usually the problem and the reason why they seem durable.

You'd think anything was durable if you didn't have the right weapon. If the game was flooded with marines it might not seem so bad, but when you plan for MEQ and are then faced with something wholly different, it's going to mess up your performance. It's not because the vehicles themselves are anything special.

8 points per wound is still really good. And they can't be ignored like rhinos, because they are carrying good units, not trashy marines. 8 pts per wound at T5 5++ is durable in 8th ed period.

7 points per wound is really good, too. 7 points per wound at T7 3+ with a turn of -1 to hit is durable, too period. There's nothing extra special about the Raider. Ignore a rhino filled with Khorne Berzerkers and see what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

We're talking about durability specifically. The Raider is an awesome vehicle because it can carry an awesome weapon and it can protect its unit while allowing the unit to perform normally (or enhanced). The Raider also lacks FNP. Only when it's in the proper obsession does it have it and even then it's a 6+.

What we're talking about, survivability, is T5 10 wounds at a 4+/5++ with the ability to fly and move pretty far. Raiders are easily worth their points, but I don't think that they are exceptionally durable for their points.

I know, but they’re so very different that comparing durability isn’t very meaningful. In addition to just the unit profiles themselves, rhinos are essentially just assault unit delivery machines, the main purpose is for your guys to get out and charge something. Venoms and Raiders will just fly around with their units taking potshots at nearby enemies, assaulting or even leaving the transport tends to be a very secondary purpose for Cabals. Who cares what’s more durable against <insert favorite gun>?

Everyone’s using Venoms and no one’s using Rhinos so it’s probably not helpful to focus on what a Rhino has that a Venom doesn’t.

The fact that Raiders are not just dumping their troops out on turn 2 or 3 is part of what makes them less durable. The Drukhari player will want to keep his units in the vehicle for most/all of the game. More turns of being a high priority target mitigates durability.

Try that with 100 W of vehicles on the table. Too many choices. Too many targets. Too many undercosted weapons.

" Ignore a rhino filled with Khorne Berzerkers and see what happens. "

Now insert any other power armor unit. And it gets ignored.

Raiders and Venoms aren’t really high priority targets though. There’s probably like 6-10 of them and it’s more or less the entire Drukhari army. Their whole list can’t be high priority.

meleti wrote:
Raiders and Venoms aren’t really high priority targets though. There’s probably like 6-10 of them and it’s more or less the entire Drukhari army. Their whole list can’t be high priority.

BINGO. If everything's special, then nothing's special.

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is too strong to ever go away. So that's a huge advantage for the raider. I've purged lascannons out of my lists, but many in my play group think I'm nuts. I think raider treating S6-9 identically is a huge meta advantage that can't really be negated easily.

It can by realizing that it treats S6 like comparably priced vehicles treat S8. The problem is that the meta had rolled towards S4 and S8 being the king of the hill values prior to the current infusion of T5-6 units with invulns.

A big problem is that flame weapons need a baseline rework. Basic flamers, hand flamers and HFs are universally priced and end up across the board weak even against a meta that should highly favor their use (- to hit and invuln spam).

It's funny to me to see your level of frustration to drukhari and harlequins hitting the meta. A marine list can far better equip to deal with them than smashcap/guard/custodes bikes or reaper/spears, which is kind of the other big option.

i ll just laugh when De units cost will be reworked and raised, then we will see some mass whining

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is too strong to ever go away. So that's a huge advantage for the raider. I've purged lascannons out of my lists, but many in my play group think I'm nuts. I think raider treating S6-9 identically is a huge meta advantage that can't really be negated easily.

It can by realizing that it treats S6 like comparably priced vehicles treat S8. The problem is that the meta had rolled towards S4 and S8 being the king of the hill values prior to the current infusion of T5-6 units with invulns.

A big problem is that flame weapons need a baseline rework. Basic flamers, hand flamers and HFs are universally priced and end up across the board weak even against a meta that should highly favor their use (- to hit and invuln spam).

It's funny to me to see your level of frustration to drukhari and harlequins hitting the meta. A marine list can far better equip to deal with them than smashcap/guard/custodes bikes or reaper/spears, which is kind of the other big option.

Harlequins? Who mentioned them?

Even reapers can't melt marines like Drukhari.

S6 is largely available on gak platforms for the Imperium.

Riggs wrote:
I'm playing in a local tournament this weekend and was looking for pointers on beating DE. I have very little experience with them and had a few questions.


1. What should by priority targets be?

2. What are some of their better strategems to be aware of?

3. What are their primary synergy strategies? How do DE armies generally work?

4. What units can I expect to see in every DE tournament list

General rules about DE are that they have a very good shooting phase and the entire army that starts on the board competes to soak the same type of weapons. I mean everything is T5-7 multi wounds with 5+ or 4+ invuln and something (the coven stuff) with 6+ FNP, sometimes also vehicles ignore wounds on 6s. It's unlikely to see other T values in turn 1.

About priority targets it really depends on your list. What do you suffer most? Ranged anti tank? Target flyers or ravagers first. Do you need to delete infantries? Target the transports. Do you fear assault oriented units? Kill the grotesques first. Do you fear those 20 hellions that can assault turn 1 and unleash several mortal wounds thanks to the dedicated stratagem? They're your priority target.

Units that you're expected to see in every DE tournament list are only the three ravagers or alternatively 3 flyers. 3x3 Prophets of Flesh grotesques, 3x3 Red Grief jetbikes and 2+ raiders with kabalites should be very common at tournaments since they're very competitive choices.

 blackmage wrote:
i ll just laugh when De units cost will be reworked and raised, then we will see some mass whining

I would be in no way mad about a points adjustment to Venoms, disintegrators (they were overpriced at 30pt but they overshot by at least 5), Ravagers, Grotesques and kabalites.

I'm going to be running 9 jet bikes tomorrow. I was planning on running 1 big unit, just to make a big mess of what ever I hit T1. You think 3x3 is better?

I was also planning to run them as cult of strife for the extra attack, they don't need advance and charge or a reroll to make a T1 charge.

The reason you run 3x3 is so you can take it as an outrider. And red grief is definitely the one you want if you are using them for t1 charges. Otherwise your opponent can easily deploy far enough back that they will not be likely to make the charge. If your opponent deploys exactly at 12" for dawn of war then you are fine, otherwise you need the extra 8" to make sure you get there.

3x3 are good only if you want to make use of the Red Grief bonus and charge turn 1. Those bikes are basically tarpit units.

If you play other wych cults a single big unit of bikes with some blasters is solid as well. Even two big units if you can give to both of them the +1T drug.

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

Neither of those are vehicles, they're actually monsters like Tyrannofexes or Riptides. Although maybe they're also heavy pain engines? I have no idea what a heavy pain engine is in 8th.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

They got the Fly keyword added in the Drukhari FAQ.

 Burnage wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

They got the Fly keyword added in the Drukhari FAQ.

Ah, that's a big omission.

 Burnage wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

They got the Fly keyword added in the Drukhari FAQ.

Ah right - missed that ! thanks

 Blackie wrote:
3x3 are good only if you want to make use of the Red Grief bonus and charge turn 1. Those bikes are basically tarpit units.

If you play other wych cults a single big unit of bikes with some blasters is solid as well. Even two big units if you can give to both of them the +1T drug.

9 bikes 3 blasters and 3 grav-talons. I am planning to tie someone up turn one. So I don't get shot to gak. If they want to deploy at the back of the board thats fine. If they give me that much board, the bikes have done their job. Theoretically, I'll let ypu know how it goes.

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt. Even the kabalites, because 6 pt models are REALLY good.

But helverins do hit them where it hurts. Mid Str, 3 dam, huge range and only -1 AP.

On average a Helverin doesn't even oneshot a Venom with their 5,3 damage (which turns out to be realistically 3 or 6 damage but the latter is never happening if you put 6+ FNP too)

As to the Rhino v Raider comparison. Rhinos have been generally a less competitive choice for a while now (with some exceptions), the arrival of the Dark Eldar dex didn't magically make the Rhino obsolete overnight. I think a Rhino buff is more appropriate than a DE vehicle nerf.

That said, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Venoms got a 5 point bump and the second splinter cannon on them got reduced from 10 to 5 point upgrade. As it is it's silly to take the second splinter cannon option for an extra shot or two for 10 points.
If the DE transports get hit with the nerf bat too hard the whole faction will go down the toilet, balancing DE is such a fine line.

Dissie Ravagers could also get some sort of change, when the max number of units are taken in every tournament army there has got to be something going on. They're the Dark Reapers of the DE dex. I don't even own any as I've just never liked the concept, but not taking them is almost handicapping myself because they are such an easy button.

If Grotesques get nerfed then I think all similar units (like Bullgyns) should also get the same treatment. IMO they work as intended, so scaling them back should be more of a game design change rather than just a change to one faction. (As in, GW just decides they don't like tough bruiser infantry walking up the middle of the table anymore).

Reavers are good but haven't broken the game (unless your opponent doesn't know how they work and lines up right on his deployment line, but a half decent player should only make that mistake once).

I could also see something being done to level out the Kabals, as is Black Heart is almost exclusivly seen in lists. I prefer poison tongue, but again I feel like I'm handicapping myself when Black Heart is obviously the superior Kabal. Maybe if Agents of Vect had a potential down side like rolling a 1 on the cancellation roll actually gave your opponent CPs or something. I don't know.

I think Cults are fine as they are, high risk, high reward as they should be. My armies are usually Cult heavy and they can be very challenging to play. Covens are also ok, wracks and Cronos might need a boost.

I think a lot of the issues are just from the adjustment period of a radically new codex release that plays differently from most other armies. There are some adjustments that could be made as outlined above, but I really think most of this is just a reaction to a new competitive army hitting the scene all at once. The same thing happened when they got their big release in 5th Ed. Once everyone got used to them they kind of toned down on their own (except for all the DeathStar garbage later on).

I'm not an authority on anything, just some of my observations as a DE player as I make lists and play and see what people take to tournaments.

There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time. Grots are good but still a footslogging assault oriented unit which is not even that fast. 35ppm is fair.

Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

I could also see something being done to level out the Kabals, as is Black Heart is almost exclusivly seen in lists. I prefer poison tongue, but again I feel like I'm handicapping myself when Black Heart is obviously the superior Kabal. Maybe if Agents of Vect had a potential down side like rolling a 1 on the cancellation roll actually gave your opponent CPs or something. I don't know.

I think the issue is that all the force multiplier abilities were given to Black Heart. They got Labyrinthine Cunning (even though *every* Archon is supposed to be this - not just Vect's ones), the reroll 1s to wound aura and Agents of Vect.

I think, at the very least, Agents of Vect should have been a general stratagem (maybe just requiring an Archon of any Kabal to still be alive), rather than being specific to Black Heart.

 Blackie wrote:

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time.

This.

 Blackie wrote:
Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.

I think the mistake with Incubi was making them Mercenaries, rather than Kabal. It means they can't benefit from Kabal traits or the Archon aura, and Drazhar is terrible as a support HQ for them.

Riggs wrote:
I'm playing in a local tournament this weekend and was looking for pointers on beating DE. I have very little experience with them and had a few questions.


1. What should by priority targets be?

2. What are some of their better strategems to be aware of?

3. What are their primary synergy strategies? How do DE armies generally work?

4. What units can I expect to see in every DE tournament list

1. Your priority targets will depend on your army. If you're playing horde or elite foot infantry like deathwing, then splinter weaponry and shredders will hurt so prioritise venoms and raiders carrying big squads of warriors (plus disintegrator ravagers if they bring any). If you're mech-heavy, ignore the venoms and focus on their ravagers and anything else with lots of darkmatter/melta weapons (trueborn, scourges, large squads of reaver jetbikes). Generally speaking, get them out of their transports and deny them their superior maneuvrability.

2/3. Any DE tournament player worth their salt at the moment is using one of the follwing general stratagem/obsession mechanics depending on what they play. Kabal (99% of the time will be Black Heart - avoid using stratagems as this gives them a chance to essentially "deny the witch" against it, causing it to fail and even potentially still costing you a CP and granting them a free one)

Wych Cult (they'll either start on the table and rush at you for a turn 1 or 2 charge or hide in the webway with a big blob hoping to jump out for the same result, either way the plan is to tarpit you and hold you in place until HQs and/or heavies get there and murder you - bubble wrap your important units with chaff units and looks for opportunities to make deep strike difficult/impossible)

Coven (will play like an elite horde with fair-sized blobs of troops backed up by big nasty MCs - either hang back and try to attrition them down with a lot of shooting or, if you don't have a lot of shooting, in which case you're likely horde yourself, it's really a case of fighting fire with fire and hoping for the best).

4. In every kabal or coven list (assuming your opponent knows what they're doing) you're going to have ravagers, most commonly with 3 dark lances for anti-tank/MC but also with disintegrators for anti-heavy infantry. You're going to have either a lot of poison shooting at you or a lot of 4++ tarpits throwing themselves at you.

In every coven list you're going to have some surprisingly speedy and resilient blobs backed up by suprisingly speedy and resilient MCS.


Overall, don't play pure defensive (DE specialise in bringing overwhelming firepower), be assertive while also mindful of what needs supporting and protecting in your own list.

 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time. Grots are good but still a footslogging assault oriented unit which is not even that fast. 35ppm is fair.

Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.

Best troll evah

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I think venoms are even overpriced since poisoned shots are trash and they can't carry a unit plus a character at the same time. Grots are good but still a footslogging assault oriented unit which is not even that fast. 35ppm is fair.

Maybe there are some units that should be cheaper or get a better profile like incubi or cronos.

Best troll evah

I'm not a SM player

UM relic leviathan dreadnought with twin storm cannon arrays. 20 shots hitting on 2+ and S7 AP-2 D2. Can still shoot after falling back at -1 to hit.

Expect the relic leviathan to get a massive nerf this year. They are getting way too common. They are going to get the fire raptor treatment.

Played at tournament witb De today. I was my 3rd and 4th game.

1st game (3rd sinnce I satared playing) I was facing custodes with Girly man and a land raider. Very few moldles It was a wierd deploment. I was in the center, he put half his force one each end, then I seized (that was lucky) my army is 9 bikes 20 warriors 10 wytches, 3 leaders and 3 transports. 3 get started boxes. And 1 wriath knight someone loanded me.

I have a lot of Blasters in that force. And a lot of movement. It was no problem for me to put my whole force against half of his. With that many blasters his land raider went pop. No problem. I still had enough shots left to whittle down the troops and cleand them up in CC. Then I turned on the other half.


Second game against tau. I got hammered pretty hard but I did have a unit of wytches that walked up half his line. Charge with minimal over watch from line of sight turn 2, then 3 inch pile in and 3 inch consolidate for 2 more turns. Used the 3 point attack again strategy to great effect. Always grabbing the next unit of fire warriors. That was fun.
Blasters in bikes did ok. Blasters in warrior squads plinked the hell out of some drones and killed a cupple units. I guess it was the objectives that took that win. Dubble win conditions. Objetives I won. Atrition he won by killing more stuff mostly the wriath knight. I won by first blood and line breaker.



So to beat me, the costodes had no chance, just not enough dudes.

Tau. Play faster and get more turns in. Maybe be more aggressive? Not sure. I did get to do what ever I wanted i. Both games. It didn't always work but it was the dice stopping me no my opponet.

 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I don't understand this opinion at all. We very clearly have some stuff in our list that is too cheap currently, and although they're not an insta-win the absolute number one tip to beat DE that I can think of is "Wait for the nerf."

 Burnage wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I don't understand this opinion at all. We very clearly have some stuff in our list that is too cheap currently, and although they're not an insta-win the absolute number one tip to beat DE that I can think of is "Wait for the nerf."

Refusing to play against an army while they're strong in anticipation of them being weakened and refusing to play as an army while they're weak in anticipation of them being buffed is a great way to ensure you never get good at the game.

In general, Dark Eldar are very powerful, and realistically, there is likely to be some pretty major and minor adjustments to their points values before 8th is over - just like we'll probably be seeing points adjustments to custode biker units, guard units, and eldar units. But unless they completely kneecap the army, dark eldar are sticking around, because they have a lot of units that aren't undercosted and are just solid units with a high skillcap for use, like Wyches, hellions, flyers, etc. Yes, you'll probably see kabalite warriors go back to 7ppm. Yes, you'll almost certainly see Disintegrators adjusted to 20-22 points since they were certainly overpriced at 30 but adjusted too far down to 15. The Raider/Ravager/Venom hull will probably go up in price.

But if you don't learn "I need to diversify my weaponry and take high-rof mid strength weapons and anti-fly weapons for when I'm not playing against imperials" and you don't learn "I need to respect the ability of fast units to tag my models in melee and stop them firing" then no matter whether a dark eldar list costs 50 more points or not, you're going to lose.

They are OP right now, there is a reason they are dominating the tourney scene at the moment. Cheap fast hard hitting models, with durability. Everyone always doesnt want their army to get nerfed. The issue is GW normally goes too far to the point of making the model no longer used at all.

We are back to the old days of Codex creep IMO.

As for how to beat them, if its ITC its going to be difficult unless you too are playing Drukhari.

the_scotsman wrote:


But if you don't learn "I need to diversify my weaponry and take high-rof mid strength weapons and anti-fly weapons for when I'm not playing against imperials" and you don't learn "I need to respect the ability of fast units to tag my models in melee and stop them firing" then no matter whether a dark eldar list costs 50 more points or not, you're going to lose.

This is the heart of it right here. Things that are going to do best against Drukhari high volume shooting, especially shooting that has a way to get around their -1 to hit modifier, and units that can still threaten their vehicles in CQC which makes tying them up with a venom or ravager more difficult. Things like Redemptor, Contemptor, and Leviathan Dreadnoughts, and on the Chaos side, things like Sonic Dreadnoughts, Daemon Engines (Daemonforged for Rerolls on a Defiler or Forgefiend) and Forge World Dreads can threaten Dark Eldar vehicles with high volume of medium strength fire, and are too potent in melee to be tied up by a venom or other skimmer. Knights and Auto Cannon Armigers are also solid against Dark Eldar, Renegades can double up on Avenger Gatlin Cannons which are effective against everything in the DE arsenal and have a strategem to re-roll failed to hits while Loyalists have access to House Mortan's stratagem to negate their hit modifiers. Rapid Fire Battle Cannons, Carapace Icarus Auto Cannons and Avenger Gatlin Cannons and stomping boots are all exceptional weapons against typical DE vehicles and infantry. Even Armigers can threaten their vehicles in CC with their S6 attacks.

Don't be afraid to use Strategems against DE, as long as you aren't pinning all your hopes and dreams on one successful stratagem in a given phase, Agents of Vect can be worked around. Like if you are playing Chaos, you can freely use Stratagems in your shooting phase, because the Drukhari player will be saving Agents of Vect for Endless Cacophony. Which means you can throw down Flak Missile, Veterans of the Long War, Fire Frenzy on a Dread, and Daemonforged on a Defiler or Forge Fiend freely, and if they block any of those, then they can't stop your Oblits from using Endless Cacophony.

I'm packing those weapons in, but Drukhari are still winning the race. And now I can't beat IG on top of it because of cheap T8.

 Burnage wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
There's nothing game breaking about DE. I'd be extremely pissed if any of our units/wargear get a price bump.

I don't understand this opinion at all. We very clearly have some stuff in our list that is too cheap currently, and although they're not an insta-win the absolute number one tip to beat DE that I can think of is "Wait for the nerf."

I don't think DE are that powerful. Instead of "wait for the nerf" I'd just suggest tone down your DE list a little bit or play a different one with other synergies. Of course if you play an index army or a list with limited option beating drukhari may be impossible but that can be said about everyone that owns just 2000 points of stuff and can't beat an army that is designed to perform very well against that specific opponent.

With my crappy index orks I struggle against optimized drukhari lists, but not more than eldar, AM, tyranids, tau, chaos or imperial soups.

I think more than Orks are struggling vs Drukhari.

DE are insanely OP.
I'll tell you why - free 6+++ on all non vehicals is not a side perk comparable to (reroll failed leadership checks or a roll of a 6 on a leadership check auto passes) Believe it or not 6+++ is just where power from pain starts. They get a ton of use out of it later in the game when they get reroll charges - immunity to leadership - 2+ to hit in CC.

(these are insane bonuses...some of which are other armies army traits)

Yet! They still get an army trait.
Which believe it or not is can be - 3 more army traits!
Ignore cover - reroll 1's - and bonus movement.

Like...seriously...the only thing iron hands get is FNP. If balance alarms are not going off in your head when you see this - you have no place talking about balance in a game. Your brain is warped beyond all reason.

DE are OP - no arguing against it.

I think he's gonna try anyway.

DE aren’t all that oppressive, it looks like they’re the top faction but there’s a whole lot of diversity in the meta right now. It’s not uncommon to see 5-6 factions in the top 8 lists of any given GT.

So here are some strategies to improve your games against Drukhari players.

As a Drukhari player myself, these are tactics that I don't see used against me to their full extent, and neglecting them can leave my opponents severely punished.

Drukhari players have historically been playing a pretty weak Codex, and we've been trained since the days of 3rd ed to see our army as "rewarding in the hands of a strong general, but easily punished by our own tactical errors." NOW we are considerably more forgiving of our own tactical errors, because our units have vastly improved - instead, it's our opponents who are more easily punished by their blunders.

Stop making so many blunders against us.

Here are some things you can do against the typical Drukhari lists to improve your chances:

1. Split Fire, at least in your first unit's opening salvo, across mutliple vehicles. The best Drukhari Stratagems are defensive ones like Lightning Fast Reactions and Agents of Vect. When we don't know where the real weight of fire is going to fall, we can't make an easy call to spend CP to protect a valuable firing platform.

2. Don't rely on a single Stratagem to win you the game, and spend your Command Points aggressively in the early game to either defend your units and/or improve your damage output.

Some of us are virtually tabling opponents within 2-3 turns, and these opponents are still clutching Command Points even when their corpses hit the floor. CP are there to be spent. Use them to help you weather the storm.

3. Actually have a handle on how dangerous specific Drukhari units are....don't guess, don't cry, don't flail...just actually know what can hurt you and where, how far they move, and crop out what doesn't matter (we all find it really weird that so many of our opponents shoot Cronos Parasite Engines when we field them).

4. Some use of AoV is fairly obvious, but the most efficient uses of it are when we know our enemy and know what stratagems or tactics REALLY hurt to block. Think your Drukhari opponent doesn't really know your army well? Feint. Using AoV inefficiently can be crippling.

Draw it out as soon as possible, even if it forces you to use a powerful Stratagem slightly less efficiently, AoV ALWAYS costs us CP to use. There is only a 1/6 chance the countered Stratagem will cost you anything.

5. Focus on weathering the storm first before you start jostling for objectives. We don't usually care about what objectives you're claiming in the first two turns, we would rather focus on just completely crippling your most dangerous units.

6. Understand how Supersonic Flyers move and be hyperaware of where your opponent moves them. There are a LOT of variables playing through our head in the movement phase, and we're not perfect - keep a careful eye out and know what kind of movement/advance tricks and stratagems YOU have available to cut off a Flyer's movement and crash it. If you're being hemmed in by Flyers look at where they can possibly move and cut off that space. Even if you aren't crashing Flyers this way, you as the opponent still have some say in how and where they move.

Games Workshop lets you bust out a measuring tape any time you want, you probably notice your Drukhari opponents do so pretty liberally. Match them in their zeal for measuring.

DE are not OP atm, just change your lists and how you play FFS.

Try some Stalkers and HB spam, with mass bodies on top of that. Dont play Primaris vs them, dont play light vehicle vs them and dont play elite one trick pony win conditions.

Of course then comes question if you make list good against DE how you deal with other armies? List tailoring vs known opponent isn't all that well looked and certainly isn't sign of good balance as if you tailor list against known opponent it's always bloody lot easier than trying to make list that should deal with wide variety of opponent.s

tneva82 wrote:
Of course then comes question if you make list good against DE how you deal with other armies? List tailoring vs known opponent isn't all that well looked and certainly isn't sign of good balance as if you tailor list against known opponent it's always bloody lot easier than trying to make list that should deal with wide variety of opponent.s

No, its you are going to a tournament and you KNOW there will be DE, you take a couple units to help against them, guess what, those same usits are good against Harlequins, CWE, and other things as well. You dont list tailor, but you do change your list.

Taking out a large only trick pony single stratagem only unit for lets say some tacs/scouts with HB's or some Stalkers, that will mean AoV wont effect you and you now have an answer for Xenons.

comparing Drukhari to space marines and saying they are op is like comparing them to a index army, we all know space marines are weak in general.

they are very strong indeed, but only the agents of vect is a game changer and for many opponents it means nothing or very little.

I play with and against drukhari quite a bit, I love them but also love crushing them with my crons.

In my games against DE I goes crazy when I listen to my opponent every turn telling me what power he adds. Or wen I use a strattagem and for just one CP he can denie me ( making me spend those CP and also he getting them).

But they are not unbeatable. Yes they are extreme fast, many -1 to hit because of "Fly", cheap heavy weapons, open transports, not an horde but they can have a lot of objectives and very fast...

A Saltker or two (one of them with Chronus) and missiles. You willl see how he gets nervous with the Stalkers. They also suffer agains heavy vehicles or Dreads.

I think you have to know how power ands drugs Works. Because everybody knows everything about SM for example. But after a couple of matches know i am beginning to know how DE works and how to play agains them.

Sorry for my English but i am working and have to answer fast.

OP how was the Tournament?

Pretty sure that strategem costs more than 1cp. Plus you lose them only 1/6 times. Same chance as it to fail

Alex_85 wrote:
Or wen I use a strattagem and for just one CP he can denie me ( making me spend those CP and also he getting them).

AoV is 3 CP, not 1.

It's strong, but not unbearably so tbh.

Jackers wrote:

Alex_85 wrote:
Or wen I use a strattagem and for just one CP he can denie me ( making me spend those CP and also he getting them).

AoV is 3 CP, not 1.

It's strong, but not unbearably so tbh.

I thought it was cheaper. Thanks for info. Maybe I don't saw the cost because my rival had a 6 and got the CP. Awesome how every time I post on Dakka I learn something.

Agents of vect cost 3. On a 1 he spends his points and it doesn't work. On a 2-5 he spends, you fail and ypu get ypur points back. Its only on a 6 that you fail and lose ypur points.

But ot always costs 3.

(Same faction has a warlord trait to regain cp on a roll of a 6)

He doesn't get the CP, you just lose it.

He's talking about ability that gives cp on roll of 6 for each cp spent. You spend cp, he cancels it. He spends 3 cp for that and 1 per your cp spent(btw if he rolls 2-5 for strategem does he still roll those?) Getting cp for 6. I think

Ahh, that would make sense, didn't think of that.

WRT your other point, I wouldn't think you get to roll those dice on a 2-5, since your opponent didn't actually spend any CP.

Jackers wrote:
He doesn't get the CP, you just lose it.

I am Reading now 1d4chan web and I am assuming my DE rival was not fair. Because he did that. Now I have to think in how many things he did unfair. "Know your enemy". Have to learn more about DE, becuase will not be the last game against him.


In this case he got my CP. And then he also throws for his CP. Last time. This hapens because of my ignorance

Sometimes its malicious, often times its just a player being overzealous. They get excited about their codex, they read something wrong, get excited about it, then play it wrong. My rule of thumb is if something seems "too good to be true" I will ask to see the rule in my opponents book. They'll show it to me, and I can verify there if he is playing right. Its a common courtesy, and one I'll happily extend to any of my opponents if they want to see whatever rules I'm using.

IIRC Agents of Vect has in interesting timing with Labyrinth cunning. If my understanding is right the order of operations is as follows.

1) Player A declares stratagem and spends 2 CP.
1a) Player B uses Labyrinth Cunning and rolls 2 dice to steal CP.
2) Player B declares Agents of Vect
2b) Player B uses Labyrinth Cunning and rolls 3 dice to try to recover CP
3) Agents of Vect Resolves. Stratagem is cancelled and Player A is restored his 2 CP.

So in this situation, Player B will have spent 3 CP for Agents of Vect, and will have rolled 5 dice, gaining a CP on a 6.

Also note, that if Player A was playing Imperial Guard and had the Warlord Trait and Relic, he would also have been attempting to regain command points at all of the points Labyrinth cunning kicked in.

yeah I was wondering about the whole labyrinthian cunning agents of vect interaction, caused some debate at my lgs last weekend

Hmm, that is an interesting debate, since looking at it again your opponent does actually spend the CP, so I can definitely see an argument for rolling LC for it.
Looks like I have the subject for my next rules email to GW, haha.

It isn't that DE are OP or more durable/pts they just go about the game from a completely different direction compared to the abundance of Marine based armies.

But that's is the point of Xenos armies.

Personally for all the reasons that people claim DE are "Cheep/OP" and need the nerf hammer i apply to IG armies.

Honestly if i were playing IG id be more concerned about a turn 1 charge form the cult of red grief units. T5 bikers are guaranteed to do it and with a lucky roll/bad unit placement wytch can get to your front lines.

Just be prepared and read up on what DE can do.

yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

All is fair in love and war...

And in he far future there is only war....

Insert: Evil elven cackle:

massed mortars kill dark eldar.

Like look at pretty much any top ranking imperial soup. Note how many armies take a lot of heavy firepower? Not many. A lot of AT punch comes in with melee, and dark eldar are super vulnerable to that. Now you're not using any of the key soup ingredients (slam captains or shield captains), but dark eldar vehicles are a lot more vulnerable to the kind of massed firepower that guard can bring that a lot of other armies. Disintigrators are, of course, good, but against most competitive guard, not so much. It's the splinter weaponry that'll get you.

Mortars wounding their vehicles on 5s just as they would a pred or rhino.

Killings transports with melee is very inefficient. Plus, 75% of the firepower survives and your captain dies next turn.

Disintegrators are good vs t8, but fall off in efficiency vs the cheap artillery.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

Raiders are fine, Rhinos needs to cost 20pts less, Rhinos are the problem not other vehicles.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

When did Rhinos become the Gold Standard unit that everything else is compared to? They're overcosted and ineffective, they have been for a while. That wasn't caused by the DE codex. The Rhino is one of the (few) consistent flaws in the imperial soup buffet.

Martel732 wrote:
Mortars wounding their vehicles on 5s just as they would a pred or rhino.

Killings transports with melee is very inefficient. Plus, 75% of the firepower survives and your captain dies next turn.

Disintegrators are good vs t8, but fall off in efficiency vs the cheap artillery.

Lasguns wound them on 5s also, DE vehicles will evaporate if they ever get within rapid fire range of a Guard infantry blob.

FOrtunately for them, they can make the decision to never do that. Or make sure the blob is crippled after their shooting.

I'm honestly more concerned about Alaitoc flyer detachments than Drukhari. They can be a pain for marines, but with tyranids they are fair game.

If the definition of OP is "I can't beat it with pure marines" then 90% of this game is made of OP.

There are half a dozen models in the game that should get a look at by GW, and ravagers are one of these, but there is nothing really OP out there, the game is at it's greatest balance since many years. It's just that this time marines are the underdogs.

There have been threads about this, but marines have been underdogs PLENTY.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

Raiders are fine, Rhinos needs to cost 20pts less, Rhinos are the problem not other vehicles.

Exactly, pure transports should be way cheaper than now.

Anyway a rhino is 74 points with a tank profile, 4/8 S4 shots at BS3+ and can carry 10 models which are a lot in a SM list. I think it's 5-10 points overcosted at most, but the real problem is that many SM units are lackluster. A rhino in a chaos or sisters army is a decent option for the actual price.

Raiders at 80 points are fair.

Martel732 wrote:
There have been threads about this, but marines have been underdogs PLENTY.

No one likes it, in general the game is more healthy when the most played faction is the meter for balance. Right now the meta is harmed by the inefficency of elite models, which is in big part due to the marine situation. If just the tactical marines were a bit better, the meta would be completely different.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

Almost every single competitive DE list have 3 disintegrator Ravagers. A 5~8 points increasement would be seen in Chapter Approved 2018.

Also, GW are pushing Primaris models hard. Disintegrators murder, and humiliate Primaris. GW have enough motivation to nerf it...

Then again marines don't need rules to sell...

I still think once all codex are out, there will be a big CA. But no new SM codex.

Gw has been releasing codexes for decades. They are print me money buttons. Gw has not shown any sign of changing style. On the contrary on aos sigmarines are on 3rd.

There will be new ones. For marines, for all factions. But at least then won't need multtiple ca's and codexes to make a list.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

When did Rhinos become the Gold Standard unit that everything else is compared to? They're overcosted and ineffective, they have been for a while. That wasn't caused by the DE codex. The Rhino is one of the (few) consistent flaws in the imperial soup buffet.

This! Rhinos have never been great. Drop pods though, those used to be amazing. They need to drop the price on Drop Pods, or make it so you can get within 6" of an enemy when you disembark. Dropping in flamer weapons would be devastating.

Anyway. What about other transports the space marines have?
Razorback
Landraider
Stormraven
Primaris Hover Tank
Forgeworld's list of various transports

The Dark Eldar only have 3 transports including Forgeworld
Raider
Venom
Tantalus

So yes, our main transport has to be more than just a rhino. It has to be a combination of several things. Space marines have a lot of tools at their disposal and you've got to pick the one that fits the rest of your list and use it to its full functionality.

Problem is the raider is better than all the marine transports. Marines do have a lot of models. That are all bad, except the razorback, which is middling. But still pure crap compared to a raider.

Rhinos have never been great in 8th yes. Neither drop pod though. If you include past editions though claiming rhino's have never been great is a lie though. Whole edition has been defined by them

Time to feast once more on the sweet salty tears of "what do you mean SM isn't an auto win army"

Suck it up butter cup. 8th ed has been great to the SM players. Basically a whole new codex with in a codex (Primaris) return of Guilliman, a new transport.

DE we lost another chunk of our special characters. No new models. Oh and Ynarri got hit hard with the nerf bat.

Heck you even got a bunch of new sculpts. Half my Space elf armies are still metal.

So please tell me why you need to have the best everything and 4 times the number of models?

Drukhari has the best everything right now. Best damage output, best durability per point.

Some body has to have Best durability per point.
Are you stating fact or complaining that it isn't in a SM codex.

Things ELdar(dark or light) don't Best at...
2+3++ saves.
Mixed arms in a single unit.
Infiltrate armies(RG or AL)

Things Druhkari cant do.
Psyker.

I know generic response to that is "oh just mix in Craftworlds" Some of us do play for Codex Pure. even play codex pure competitively.

Mali wrote:
Time to feast once more on the sweet salty tears of "what do you mean SM isn't an auto win army"

Suck it up butter cup. 8th ed has been great to the SM players. Basically a whole new codex with in a codex (Primaris) return of Guilliman, a new transport.

DE we lost another chunk of our special characters. No new models. Oh and Ynarri got hit hard with the nerf bat.

Heck you even got a bunch of new sculpts. Half my Space elf armies are still metal.

So please tell me why you need to have the best everything and 4 times the number of models?

This is a discussion about how to beat the army with the best rules...The hobby aspect does not come into it at all. Nor does having more useless choices. DE have the best rules - by far.

You realize right that rather than 2+ save you want durability?

Bup yup. Easy to dismis valid critique when you have it good. Then when things gets reversed you would be the one complaining.

Oh and new codex as in primaris...whopedoo. if they aren't useful so what?

But as usual arrogant eldars with their codex advantages

Suck it up? I've been "sucking it up" since the Wardex in 5th. The crapiness of the basal marine trickles down to many lists. Some of which that have no access to Bobby G. My army also got screwed over because Nid players couldn't keep their hands off the "spam" button.

Marines haven't been autowin since 3rd. How many people in here even played 3rd? And even that didn't last once the starcannon was published. Even the gladius wasn't autowin. It was necessary.

Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Martel732 wrote:
Suck it up? I've been "sucking it up" since the Wardex in 5th. The crapiness of the basal marine trickles down to many lists. Some of which that have no access to Bobby G. My army also got screwed over because Nid players couldn't keep their hands off the "spam" button.

Marines haven't been autowin since 3rd. How many people in here even played 3rd? And even that didn't last once the starcannon was published. Even the gladius wasn't autowin. It was necessary.

inb4 someone mentions bark star/super friends tournament winners.

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

Necrons, for example, are very solid, with many powerful options. But they aren't LOL 50 disintegrator shots powerful. Why people don't see the difference is mind boggling. I can cripple many necron lists with a couple key assaults that yield zero survivors. Drukhari are completely distributed and basically can ignore losses of any unit.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

Well power from pain combined with their army traits is also over the top to. Power from pain is REALLY good. 6+FNP is increadible and that is just where it starts.
Basically no one talks about how OP prophets of the flesh is also. 4++ invos across the board? with Characters buffing str and toughness in auras? It's down right silly. A lot of it has to do with what they are paying for it. OFC it does. They do have some amazing rules to though.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

It's not everything. I've seen zero complaints since the Codex about stuff like Hellions, Medusae, or Khymerae. Even Scourges.

There's definitely some stuff in the Dark Eldar Codex that I'd agree is undercosted, but most of it is genuinely fine. It's just not the stuff that you're seeing in competitive lists.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Suck it up? I've been "sucking it up" since the Wardex in 5th. The crapiness of the basal marine trickles down to many lists. Some of which that have no access to Bobby G. My army also got screwed over because Nid players couldn't keep their hands off the "spam" button.

Marines haven't been autowin since 3rd. How many people in here even played 3rd? And even that didn't last once the starcannon was published. Even the gladius wasn't autowin. It was necessary.

inb4 someone mentions bark star/super friends tournament winners.

Super friends list only won because it exploited the loopholes in the rules.

Great job keeping this thread focused on Drukhari, guys.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

No, they have really strong counters, the reason they are winning tournaments is b.c players dont bring what works against DE, they or are to stubborn to try units consider "not S tier".

DE are winning b.c of 3 things, light Vehicles, heavy infantry, Counter to 1 trick pony stratagems. Guess what 3 things the meta had? 1 trick pony stratagems, light infantry and light infantry killing guns. OMG!!! You see that?!?! DE just counters the meta atm, start taking anti light vehicle weapons, anti heavy infantry, and dont relay on 1 stratagem but use many small stratagems.

Yes DE are strong, yes some nerfs are coming and thats fine (I play DE), but they are not the boogie man, they have hard counters, just use them.


For SM at least, start taking HB's, units like Stalkers, stop taking multi wounded infantry, heck Scouts and Tacs with HB's and Plasma works great, try a Thunderfire cannon even.

I think at their current price point, DE can only have soft counters. Even if you have the tools to do damage effectively, you just have so many targets to plow through.

Martel732 wrote:
I think at their current price point, DE can only have soft counters. Even if you have the tools to do damage effectively, you just have so many targets to plow through.

Hordes, Daemon and Ork Hordes win vs them
Mass S5-7 with 0 or 1 AP as well, Plasma, HB, etc..
My DE cant beat SoB lists, and i have lost to horde marines a few times (yes with Ravagers, Grots, etc..)

You can put 100+ SM on the table with HB's and Plasma, re-roll all and easily get 2+ cover on most units

If you are looking at tournaments for power levels, then thats stupid IMO, many have house rules, like "All ground floor is 100% LoS block" or "Get 1 VP if you kill a 10, 2 if kill a 20, 3 if kill a 30 man unit" these types of rules force weakness on many armies, weakness that DE are strong against.

Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

Well such list is terribly easy to theorize. Not so terribly effective IRL as envisioned however.

List tailor for Drukhari, so I can never kill a Russ ever again! Glorious. Russes are effiicent. Raiders are efficient. They require large amounts of opposite kinds of tools. Tools are expensive for marines.

Oh I'm sorry did i not say how much I'm enjoying my Current status on top and how i have been playing all flavors of Eldar since i started in Fifth. My apologizes.

Ill reiterate my advice just in case some people missed it through the tears.

I don't play coven units. Mainly i hate the look. that being said.
A) watch your placement because of turn one T5 bike charges which can tie you up early on.
B) DE are very mobile and can bring the appropriate firepower where it needs to be. Learn your target priority.
C) warriors don't need to move fast to accomplish there mission. which is usually to hose down stuff with massed poison shots.

D!!) We can offer suggestions to help but ultimately it goes back to Sun Tzu "Know they self and know thy enemy"

guys pointless talk about "counters" dont you think who goes to major tournaments aren't readt with "counters" for De? But they still win, they are undercosted and with powerful rules, is not just "counters", if you know you will be play against drukari you can bring your counters, but in tournaments you must build an overall working list. Anyway i hope De will not complain a lot when Gw axe will hit their "not so powerful and with hard counters" codex. Thank God i play nurgle demons so i can put a fight on them but for the rest?imho

 blackmage wrote:
guys pointless talk about "counters" dont you think who goes to major tournaments aren't readt with "counters" for De? But they still win, they are undercosted and with powerful rules, is not just "counters", if you know you will be play against drukari you can bring your counters, but in tournaments you must build an overall working list. Anyway i hope De will not complain a lot when Gw axe will hit their "not so powerful and with hard counters" codex. Thank God i play nurgle demons so i can put a fight on them but for the rest?imho

The problem with tournaments are they have house rules, we need to split a topic like this from local games and tournament games.

Tournaments normally dont last 5 or more turns, many have house rules that makes hordes harder to play, or no cover saves terrain, their own missions outsideof GW's 24, etc...

You cant say local games are struggling b.c tournaments are.

i said MAJOR tournaments, they dont have house rules they have rules played everywhere like ITC or ETC

"Suck it up buttercup"
—>
Proceeds to whine about model range, and then about the rules for the current No.1 army in the game.

After all the wineing. What 1 unit is the biggest problem. What does the OP need to neutralize? (What do you hope GeeDubs nerfs)

Real play experence. What was it how much did it kill how much of your fire power did it soak up. How long did it last?

I play a LOT of DE, its my main army, from my PoV with experience not bias.

Dis Cannons needs to be 20pts instead of 15pts
Grotesques needs to be +2pts

Thanks its


If Dis cannons go up 5pts (they are equal to DL vs tanks and better vs everything else) they will be more in line, this will make each Ravager 15pts more, when taking 3 thats 45pts more. This would also make RWJF's 145pts over 135pts, Raiders 85 over 80. Over all a 45-60pts change per army, meaning thats 1-2 less troops or 1 less venom

Grots just need a 2pts encrease b.c they are better than most units alike to them, but if you go to high then you will just see 100 Wracks or Warriors instead or more Talos, they are good yes but they are easily over nerf and then never playable again.


Venoms and Raiders dont need any changes, they seem good b.c people are winning with them, but its the other units that are doing a lot of the heavy lifting, Venom Spam if you look at the damage output is tiny, 1 Venoms vs 5+ save does either 1 kill or 2 kills, depending if within Rapid fire range or now (this is without re-rolls, with re-rolls of 1 your looking at 0.25/0.50 better wounds). They are very good at getting to places and locking up units in combat, taking objectives and getting a Troop close into damage range, but even then thats still 5/10 more poison shots.

If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

It WAS 30pts and NO one played it b.c it was grossly over costed, its A3 S5 2D, not a 30pts weapon, 20 is reasonable.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

Lol what?

What edition are we in? Open Top rhinos?

I got to discard your opinion on this matter if you don't even know the Rhino's failings.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact how did no one call you out on this? Much less saying, go play another faction which still isn't even a good answer as the solution.

Dis cannons to 20-25
Blasters +5
Ravagers, venoms, raiders +5-10
Grots +5
Agents of vect once per game? Game turn? (it's too good to be used every phase)
+10 points for the flyers (eldar as well Hunters and hemlocks)
Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal
No stacking the -1 to hit strat
Kabilites +1-2 points (maybe)
That character killing witch needs a bump too (10-15 points?)

Let's not compare anything to marines because it seems pretty well understood that they are broken. But I think the above would bring them from broken to competitive.

[edit:] sisters rhinos have firing ports (I forget what the proper name for them is)

 Quickjager wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

Lol what?

What edition are we in? Open Top rhinos?

I got to discard your opinion on this matter if you don't even know the Rhino's failings.




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In fact how did no one call you out on this? Much less saying, go play another faction which still isn't even a good answer as the solution.

Did you read the Repressor? It leaves out the part they cant shoot while in combat, and they are +2 wounds with an Invul.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

It WAS 30pts and NO one played it b.c it was grossly over costed, its A3 S5 2D, not a 30pts weapon, 20 is reasonable.

Somewhere around 25pts would be more fair. Look at Gravcannon which is 24" heavy 4 and same str and AP and average same dmg against sv3+, costing 28pts. The dis cannon one less shot is well balanced back by the longer range and assault type.

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

I disagree. Dark eldar players have always been particularly skilled at competitive levels since that army is not as easy to play as SM or Chaos. Now we have a solid codex but if DE performs at competitive levels is also thanks to those players that had to be skilled to use their favorite army in previous editions when dark eldar were an unfortgiving army and very hard to play against competitive opponents.

Even with this solid codex we must think very carefully about list building because we have way more limitations than other armies with three subfactions that can't be mixed in a single detachment unless we want to lose the obsessions' bonuses.

I honestly don't see this imbalance against tryanids, AM, eldar or chaos/imperium soups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

It WAS 30pts and NO one played it b.c it was grossly over costed, its A3 S5 2D, not a 30pts weapon, 20 is reasonable.

Somewhere around 25pts would be more fair. Look at Gravcannon which is 24" heavy 4 and same str and AP and average same dmg against sv3+, costing 28pts. The dis cannon one less shot is well balanced back by the longer range and assault type.

25 points is the cost of a lascannon. So no, it wouldn't be fair.

A ravager that costs 5-10 points could be fair, the weapons are ok as they are.

bananathug wrote:
Dis cannons to 20-25
Blasters +5
Ravagers, venoms, raiders +5-10
Grots +5
Agents of vect once per game? Game turn? (it's too good to be used every phase)
+10 points for the flyers (eldar as well Hunters and hemlocks)
Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal
No stacking the -1 to hit strat
Kabilites +1-2 points (maybe)
That character killing witch needs a bump too (10-15 points?)

Why do I think you worked on the 7th edition DE codex?

 Blackie wrote:

I disagree. Dark eldar players have always been particularly skilled at competitive levels since that army is not as easy to play as SM or Chaos. Now we have a solid codex but if DE performs at competitive levels is also thanks to those players that had to be skilled to use their favorite army in previous editions when dark eldar were an unfortgiving army and very hard to play against competitive opponents.

Even with this solid codex we must think very carefully about list building because we have way more limitations than other armies with three subfactions that can't be mixed in a single detachment unless we want to lose the obsessions' bonuses.

I honestly don't see this imbalance against tryanids, AM, eldar or chaos/imperium soups.

The above argument, which essentially reads as "the Codex isn't broken, rather its just good and its the players are hardened veterans who learned the game on a razors edge, so you just need to git gud" is tired and old. This argument would have more merit if 40K was actually a difficult game, or if we pretend for a moment that competitive players (where balance matters most) aren't familiar with all of the armies and don't regularly change up armies to stay on the top of the competitive curve. Arguing that DE players are just "better" is arrogant and frankly not true. Especially in the age of the internet where you can access major tournament winning lists at the click of a button, alongside detailed explanations of how they work.

Don't get me wrong, there is some merit to it. I started Eldar at their low point in 5th Edition, and I played Bretonnia in 8th Edition Fantasy which basically required precision play and a bit of luck to get a win even at a casual level. I feel like it taught me important elements of the game faster, but lets not pretend I had better fundamentals because of it than somebody who played say, Ward Dex Grey Knights and traveled to tournaments. Just because somebody played Dark Eldar before doesn't make them a better player than somebody who started with space marines. And the number of posts where somebody says something along the lines of.

"hey y'all I just started playing Primarus from Dark Imerium, my buddy just started Drukhari! For some reason whenever we play I get tabled by turn two, what am I doing wrong???"

Dark Eldar may have been an unforgiving army in the past, but those days are over. To take your argument one step further, Space Marines are the unforgiving army today, and you need to learn to be a better player to win with them. Even by contrast Chaos benefits from a wide variety of amazing strategems, and one of the best psychic lores in the game to help them keep up. It also helps that the Chaos dex isn't bloated with Primarus units which currently aren't pulling their weight and draw people in with gorgeous new models. Starting with a weaker army may make you a better player if you stick with it. But that is a personal thing and does nothing to explain larger trends.

Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal /Cult/ Coven

I do think this makes sense - especially give its a standard restriction - there is no reason for our DE to ignore it.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal /Cult/ Coven

I do think this makes sense - especially give its a standard restriction - there is no reason for our DE to ignore it.

I'll support this the day DE HQs get access to Jetbikes and Wings.

Nobody thinks that SM are now represented likes a Faction that is loosing a War? I mean, they are fighting against the entire Galaxy. Being "weak" to play is likes they are now in the lore.

But, out of lore, GW is trying to equilibrate all factions. They will need a time. But if they now buff SM and nerf DE maybe they make things goes invert.

GW favourites are SM. For sure they will get a buff in the near future.

When I played against DE and knowed how much they weapons cost I was really surprised. Comparing to SM y was feeling they was very undercosted.

Now I ask something: Do you think once all Codex are out it will be a big CA?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal /Cult/ Coven

I do think this makes sense - especially give its a standard restriction - there is no reason for our DE to ignore it.

I'll support this the day DE HQs get access to Jetbikes and Wings.

Give characters the inquisition rule that they can ride in any DE transport. Seems fair with a laymans understanding of the codex. Does this open up any weird shenanigans? You know those dark eldar, they tricksie...

bananathug wrote:
Give characters the inquisition rule that they can ride in any DE transport. Seems fair with a laymans understanding of the codex. Does this open up any weird shenanigans? You know those dark eldar, they tricksie...

I mean, I'd still like wings and jetbikes...

But, yeah, that would be a reasonable compromise.


As far as I'm aware, you couldn't pull any shenanigans with it.

We Had an HQ on skyboard. but because no official model GW pulled his rules.

We also lost out Kabal Unique cause his model wasn't updated since 3rd and no one liked a Raider with 3 Heavy weapons. Poor Vect.

Mali wrote:
We Had an HQ on skyboard. but because no official model GW pulled his rules.

We also lost out Kabal Unique cause his model wasn't updated since 3rd and no one liked a Raider with 3 Heavy weapons. Poor Vect.

All I want is to put my Sucubus on a jet bike and give her the Vexiator Mask.

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

Yes, I agree.

If not less for the Grav cannon. Grav cannons and many other space marine weapons are overpriced.

We know how the dis cannon performs at 30pts because it was at 30pts before: spoiler altert, it was mathematically inefficient, just like the grav cannon.

Solution: Make sure both dis cannon and grav cannon don't work?

Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
Dis cannons to 20-25
Blasters +5 21 points for a blaster? Aren't melta guns 17?
Ravagers, venoms, raiders +5-10 Agree
Grots +5 Agree
Agents of vect once per game? Game turn? (it's too good to be used every phase) How many phases can you keep that up generally? Three? It costs 3CP per use...
+10 points for the flyers (eldar as well Hunters and hemlocks) Yeah, and let's bump all marine flyers up 10pts too because Stormravens were competitive at one point! oh wait, lets not do that, because blindly applying a nerf to a whole bunch of units as if they're identical is ridiculous.
Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal We going to do the same to Guard, whose vehicles work exactly the same way? If so, then sure.
No stacking the -1 to hit strat You can't currently stack any strat... also, an absolute ton of factions can stack up to -2 to hit. Including Marines. Why is it only broken when DE do it?
Kabilites +1-2 points (maybe)
That character killing witch needs a bump too (10-15 points?) let's play "what did this guy lose to in his last game". Lelith is about as effective at killing characters as a Vindicare assassin. "Oh gak you have an INVULN save? And toughness FOUR?!? Curses, foiled again!"

Let's not compare anything to marines because it seems pretty well understood that they are broken. But I think the above would bring them from broken to competitive.

[edit:] sisters rhinos have firing ports (I forget what the proper name for them is)

We've gone from tips on how to beat DE to discussions as to whether they are overpowered... oh jeeze.

Anyway, I agree that negative to hit modifiers should be greatly reduced or capped at -1 to hit. Eldar being able to stack Lightning Reflexes with Alaitoc / Night Shields, and even further for CWE with Vectored Engines or Conceal from a Warlock. Its too much for the game and bs3 should not be able to be reduced to a 6+ to hit. I play Eldar, I agree that stacking modifiers to hit needs to go. For my army and other armies as well. I play Chaos, I should not be able to stack Alpha legion with Miasma for a -2 to hit.

Hit modifiers were poorly implemented in the game, and they are often too powerful to the point where if they are a choice they drown out any other meaningful option you could have had. Basically stacking the modifiers isn't broken when DE does it, its broken whenever anyone does it. Whether its Nurgle Alpha legion, CWE, etc. It makes the game less fun to play.

 akaean wrote:
We've gone from tips on how to beat DE to discussions as to whether they are overpowered... oh jeeze.


Hit modifiers were poorly implemented in the game, and they are often too powerful to the point where if they are a choice they drown out any other meaningful option you could have had. Basically stacking the modifiers isn't broken when DE does it, its broken whenever anyone does it. Whether its Nurgle Alpha legion, CWE, etc. It makes the game less fun to play.

No, they are needed ATM, b.c there is double shots and mass re-rolls all over the place, some armies can basically re-roll all hit and wound dice at all times, when you look at twin weapons getting double shots, and many of the D6 D3 weapons its gotten crazy.

There is only one way for vanilla marines to do it and it involves a very specific build (ultra-marine flyer plus tigarius) but if you want to remove that I'm all for it. DA can do it with their flyers + shroud but at least you can kill the shroud to get rid of it (which is a much more fair application IMHO but if that has to die to get rid of the invisastar part deux them I'm in)

-2 to hit are broken, -3 are insane. So either we get rid of the basic -1 to hit trait (which is really messy because so many people have it) or we get rid of the -2s and 3s.

I'm pretty sure vect was conceved when armies had much less cp (before the +5 for bats is my guess) rather than bump it to a price that you can't use (should go to 5 if cp for a bat went from 3 to 5) limit to once per turn.

I'm down to apply the same rule to guard as well.

The flyers are a problem with the stacking the negs to hit honestly (altoric flyers are a pox on the game). The DE ones may be a result of the weapons on them but that ravenwing with an invlun and similar shooting being 30-40 points cheaper seems like a problem to me.

And yeah, that witch is personal but she just seems so good against characters (she still 1 rounds most marine characters). Honestly probably an over-reaction but one of my buddies runs her and she ruins any human-like character she touches. Also, she kills better than a vindi and a vindi cost 105 so 95 for her doesn't seem like too bad of a deal but this could be colored by personal bias.

Melta gun is 17 points for 12" range, multi-melta is 27 for 24" range so it seems like its 10 points for 12" range or 5 points for 6" range? Call it +3 if that seems more fair?

Everyone agrees MM and Meltas are bad, they thought so since day one, comparing something balance to a MM and saying its to good is a terrible analogy, no one thinks MM are good. MM and MG needs a buff or points decrease.

Also about flyers? DE, they also dont get re-rolls or better hit modifiers like many other flyers do, no Strafe runs, no nothing, just straight shots, and the 5 invul? They always had that since day one this is nothing new, and its only a 5++, 99% the time they dont get their 4+ armor, so they always are basically a 5+ save with 10 wounds that degrades are 5 and 3 wounds, unlike many other flyers with 12 wounds or degrades at 5 and 2 wounds, they also dont have hover.

A Storm Talon is the closest thing to them and it is only 5pts more base (the guns are what is very costly on the ST), so for a 5pts difference the ST can Hover, Strafe runs, vs a 5++,thats pretty equal to me.

I'd rather see the ST get 15pts cheaper (the guns) MM and MG get better than nerf a few DE bits.

Yes a couple DE things needs to be nerf, 20pts DC and +3pt Grots for sure.

Sadly many things people are complaining about in here show just how unbalance profiles are to each other, regardless of the armies and hopefully GW can do some good balance changes.

 akaean wrote:
We've gone from tips on how to beat DE to discussions as to whether they are overpowered... oh jeeze.

Anyway, I agree that negative to hit modifiers should be greatly reduced or capped at -1 to hit. Eldar being able to stack Lightning Reflexes with Alaitoc / Night Shields, and even further for CWE with Vectored Engines or Conceal from a Warlock. Its too much for the game and bs3 should not be able to be reduced to a 6+ to hit. I play Eldar, I agree that stacking modifiers to hit needs to go. For my army and other armies as well. I play Chaos, I should not be able to stack Alpha legion with Miasma for a -2 to hit.

Hit modifiers were poorly implemented in the game, and they are often too powerful to the point where if they are a choice they drown out any other meaningful option you could have had. Basically stacking the modifiers isn't broken when DE does it, its broken whenever anyone does it. Whether its Nurgle Alpha legion, CWE, etc. It makes the game less fun to play.

It's not the stacking modifiers. It's the dissy cannon deleting the competition trivially. Every game.

It's hard to give tips when very few models are efficient vs DE.

 akaean wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

I disagree. Dark eldar players have always been particularly skilled at competitive levels since that army is not as easy to play as SM or Chaos. Now we have a solid codex but if DE performs at competitive levels is also thanks to those players that had to be skilled to use their favorite army in previous editions when dark eldar were an unfortgiving army and very hard to play against competitive opponents.

Even with this solid codex we must think very carefully about list building because we have way more limitations than other armies with three subfactions that can't be mixed in a single detachment unless we want to lose the obsessions' bonuses.

I honestly don't see this imbalance against tryanids, AM, eldar or chaos/imperium soups.

The above argument, which essentially reads as "the Codex isn't broken, rather its just good and its the players are hardened veterans who learned the game on a razors edge, so you just need to git gud" is tired and old. This argument would have more merit if 40K was actually a difficult game, or if we pretend for a moment that competitive players (where balance matters most) aren't familiar with all of the armies and don't regularly change up armies to stay on the top of the competitive curve. Arguing that DE players are just "better" is arrogant and frankly not true. Especially in the age of the internet where you can access major tournament winning lists at the click of a button, alongside detailed explanations of how they work.

Don't get me wrong, there is some merit to it. I started Eldar at their low point in 5th Edition, and I played Bretonnia in 8th Edition Fantasy which basically required precision play and a bit of luck to get a win even at a casual level. I feel like it taught me important elements of the game faster, but lets not pretend I had better fundamentals because of it than somebody who played say, Ward Dex Grey Knights and traveled to tournaments. Just because somebody played Dark Eldar before doesn't make them a better player than somebody who started with space marines. And the number of posts where somebody says something along the lines of.

"hey y'all I just started playing Primarus from Dark Imerium, my buddy just started Drukhari! For some reason whenever we play I get tabled by turn two, what am I doing wrong???"

Dark Eldar may have been an unforgiving army in the past, but those days are over. To take your argument one step further, Space Marines are the unforgiving army today, and you need to learn to be a better player to win with them. Even by contrast Chaos benefits from a wide variety of amazing strategems, and one of the best psychic lores in the game to help them keep up. It also helps that the Chaos dex isn't bloated with Primarus units which currently aren't pulling their weight and draw people in with gorgeous new models. Starting with a weaker army may make you a better player if you stick with it. But that is a personal thing and does nothing to explain larger trends.

Those days may be over but the drukhari codex was released not even 3 months ago. I seriously doubt that those strong drukhari lists are played by someone that just started the army because now they have a solid codex. It's not possible to buy, assemble, paint, learn the mechanics and combos and make experience with an army in only 2-3 months. Those competitive lists that many players are currently struggling with are mostly run by experienced players.

Yes now SM are tough to play at (very) competitive levels. In any casual or semi competitive meta at least a couple of chapters are doing well. I mean chapters from the SM codex, DA and BA are solid mid tiers.

Drukhari aren't overpowered at all. They aren't better than other 4-5 competitive armies. AM, eldar, tyranids, chaos and imperium soups are definitely at the same level if not better, probably also tau are there as well.

And between 10 obsessions only 3-4 are present in competitive games. Black Heart kabal, Red Grief wych cult with just 9 bikes and a succubus, and Prophets of Flesh coven, maybe also Flayed Skull kabal. Rather than points hikes I'd like some light nerf since I think a 2000 points drukhari army has the adequate number of models now and I don't want to play with fewer models: drukhari are NOT an elite army. I'd prefer grotesques with -1A and/or -1 to their invuln save and -2W raiders/ravagers than having them more expensive.

The dis cannon IMHO is too expensive at 20 points. Plasma guns are 13 points and can be spammed. To spam dis cannons you need tons of vehicles and pure shooting drukhari lists are not that competitive, you must need some assault oriented units among the wych cult or coven stuff.

As a DE player, here's my tips on beating the army.

The number one thing my opponents never seem to realize or capitalize on is that our vehicles are just as, if not more, effectively taken down by anti-infantry weaponry as opposed to anti-tank.

For instance, a Lascannon firing at a Raider will do an average of 1.04 damage. Really sucks, right? That's because a Raider doesn't have the defensive statline of a vehicle, and you shouldn't treat it as if it does. T5 and a 4+ save? Sounds more like a plague marine, and you should treat it as such. Consider this instead. 10 Bolter shots at the same Raider will do 1.11 damage. Not a huge boost, but the take away is don't be afraid to shoot anti-infantry weapons at transports.

The antithesis of a DE player is low AP high Rate of Fire weaponry in the S6-7 Range. For Space Marines, consider bringing back the Assault Cannon Razorback against DE with the Primarch Backup. One of those will deal 5.34 damage to a Venom, with just a bit of luck you'll be taking down a Venom per turn per Razorback! For Guard, don't bother with plasma. Please don't. I don't even bother shooting at plasma squads anymore, even with orders the unit implodes before I get the chance. What you do want to spam is Hydras, Hellhounds, and Heavy Flamers. You've got a crap Ballistic Skill, and our main defense against you is having you miss entirely, take that out of the equation.

Aside from that, these are the priority targets/tips for each subfaction.
Kabal: Kill their transports, kill their offensive potential. Blasters can be dangerous, but Kabalites will buckle like tissue paper under even the weakest fire. Ravagers, as it should go without saying, should always be your top priority. Icarus Autocannons are the utter bane of their existence.

Cult: Reavers are scary in first turn charges, but as long as you keep your important units bubble wrapped, you should be fine, their melee is piddling at best. Beware Wyches. They're probably going to deepstrike mid-game, they're going to wreck face when they do. Just have a sacrificial unit ready for them to chew through and turn them into mincemeat when they kill it. They have an invuln, but it's a 6+ and their only save. Lasguns tear through these things.

Coven: Chaff Chaff and more Chaff. They hit hard, but not all that often, and every wound against them hurts. I wouldn't count on killing these things as theyre designed to be nigh unkillable, but again, Assault Cannons and Autocannons are your best bet against them.

As for nerfs, I won't speak on many of them, but a boost in points for the Blaster? For God's sake why? It's the same price as a Meltagun, has the same stats as a Meltagun, the only difference from it and a Meltagun are 6" of range and a loss of the Melta rule! What's so overpowered about that?

You assume every army is painted. Or painted by player and not say someone else(painting services are very common for hard core tournament players) or bought painted 2nd hand(and saving money to boot).

And when you read actual competive players battle reports you can notice they actually can learn the ropes rather quickly. As he said 40k isn't super complex game. It's not nobel science so competive player who plays several games a week does not require months to learn army.

BTW plasma gun isn't 36" assault 3...To get even 2/3 of shots they need to be within 12" so basically never on turn 1 and not even quaranteed T2. And disintegrator doesnt' blow in their face.

TheBaconPope wrote:
As a DE player, here's my tips on beating the army.

The number one thing my opponents never seem to realize or capitalize on is that our vehicles are just as, if not more, effectively taken down by anti-infantry weaponry as opposed to anti-tank.

Yes, in fact yes. But with their speed probably you will not achieve a cc against their vehicles. They will deploy and run away. Then you will realise that you will continue shooting -1 to hit. Yes DE vehicles has low T and gives you the chance that your few hits can wound. In my matches against DE I had lots of problems for shoot a Venom, it was -2 to hit. Mi techmarine charged and destroyed him, but after two round of plenty shooting from my intercessor squad, scouds and one tactical. All shooting only two wounds. Yes, I do more wound in cc against the Venom that shooting.

I think playing against DE the main problem is they FLY. You have to fill anti-air in your army.

 Blackie wrote:
The dis cannon IMHO is too expensive at 20 points. Plasma guns are 13 points and can be spammed. To spam dis cannons you need tons of vehicles and pure shooting drukhari lists are not that competitive, you must need some assault oriented units among the wych cult or coven stuff.

Pure shooting lists seems like one of the more competitive ways to run DE currently, honestly. Venom spam with Ravagers is pretty solid.

Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

As Chaos I get Death Hex, but that's about it. Unfortunately it only targets single models.

we have 2 Drukhari players at my lgs, one is pure coven and the other (me) is pure kabal, could be that I don't get as much complaint because the other dude gets it al lol , he typically rolls really well on saves and it frustrates people to no end.

my last game was against the new knights, had something like 110 wounds on vehicles including 3 flyers, but was wiped in turn 3, not having any of those haywire weapons really hurt me there...

on the other hand the coven player played against them with 9 talos with haywire and wiped the knight player in turn 2...

I will second that things in the 5-7 STR range (5 is good, 6 is best, 7 starts to lose a lot of volume) make Dark Eldar players cringe. Heavy Bolters, Hellhounds, Heavy Flamers, things that are just massive volume with little to no AP. Most of there stuff tends to not care much after -1 AP. Even lasguns and boltguns in sufficient numbers can make them pucker a bit.

This of course does not translate down to the fliers, but the flamers still work nicely against them if they stray too close.

Between invulnerable saves and Feel No Pain rules... you just have to make them roll the dice and fail saves.

 Alexonian wrote:
we have 2 Drukhari players at my lgs, one is pure coven and the other (me) is pure kabal, could be that I don't get as much complaint because the other dude gets it al lol , he typically rolls really well on saves and it frustrates people to no end.

my last game was against the new knights, had something like 110 wounds on vehicles including 3 flyers, but was wiped in turn 3, not having any of those haywire weapons really hurt me there...

on the other hand the coven player played against them with 9 talos with haywire and wiped the knight player in turn 2...

Who the hell has 9 talos?

Actually thats (half) a list I would want to run. Talos and Reavers. A hard point and a mess of stupid fast bikes.

Headlss wrote:

 Alexonian wrote:
we have 2 Drukhari players at my lgs, one is pure coven and the other (me) is pure kabal, could be that I don't get as much complaint because the other dude gets it al lol , he typically rolls really well on saves and it frustrates people to no end.

my last game was against the new knights, had something like 110 wounds on vehicles including 3 flyers, but was wiped in turn 3, not having any of those haywire weapons really hurt me there...

on the other hand the coven player played against them with 9 talos with haywire and wiped the knight player in turn 2...

Who the hell has 9 talos?

Actually thats (half) a list I would want to run. Talos and Reavers. A hard point and a mess of stupid fast bikes.

I have 6 and 3 Cronos

A marine captain has T4, W5, 3+ and an iron halo giving 4++.

On average lelith hesperax (assuming Strength boost, which you almost always use on her) deals 2.18 damage to that captain with her penetrating blades and .5 damage with her hair. Amusingly, if that captain has a Thunderhammer, as captains often do, he hits her back for exactly .1 less damage on average.


A vindicare assassin only does 1.83 damage to that guy but he does it from 60" range, and the captain doesn't then get to punch back.

An eversor assassin does 2.96 damage to a marine captain with melee and 1.25 with shooting, actually coming decently close to being able to one-round him on average.

Yep, definitely making a great case for yourself as an impartial judge of balance."nerf that thing cus my buddy runs it and it makes me feel sad."

I get 2.56 with the spear with attack boost and spear with a 10% chance to kill him but close enough.

I'd agree with the eversor being a fair comparison but she's more survivable, grants re-rolls, gets power from pain and prevents you from falling back but she doesn't explode or deepstrike or charge 3d6(damn they're good). This is probably the best comparison and she is even more expensive so she's probably fairly pointed.

But I totally admit that my beef with her was personal and not really to be taken seriously. "Honestly probably an over-reaction...colored by personal bias." Seems like a pretty obvious admission but if it makes you feel better, yeah you got me, she's really not that bad..

Headlss wrote:

 Alexonian wrote:
we have 2 Drukhari players at my lgs, one is pure coven and the other (me) is pure kabal, could be that I don't get as much complaint because the other dude gets it al lol , he typically rolls really well on saves and it frustrates people to no end.

my last game was against the new knights, had something like 110 wounds on vehicles including 3 flyers, but was wiped in turn 3, not having any of those haywire weapons really hurt me there...

on the other hand the coven player played against them with 9 talos with haywire and wiped the knight player in turn 2...

Who the hell has 9 talos?

Actually thats (half) a list I would want to run. Talos and Reavers. A hard point and a mess of stupid fast bikes.

he only had 3 before the codex....

 chimeara wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

As Chaos I get Death Hex, but that's about it. Unfortunately it only targets single models.

Death hex targets units according to the codex.

From a chaos perspective, I think autocannon/heavy bolter spam is the best bet. Obliterators are good too, although their range leaves something to be desired.

A forgefiend with daemonforge will do good work as well.

One problem chaos has that a lot of people mention is we really need our strategems for our units to work as well as possible, but since DE players can shut those down I see a lot of people saying you can't rely on things like Daemonforge, Endless cacophony and VotLW anymore, but I disagree. If your opponent is burning through 3cp to stop you from using your strategems, he will be out of them by the second turn. Lean into it, use as many strategems as you can and force him to make the choice.

That's all I've got, it is a very strong book. I am glad DE players are getting their time in the sun They deserve it.

Primortus wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

As Chaos I get Death Hex, but that's about it. Unfortunately it only targets single models.

Death hex targets units according to the codex.

From a chaos perspective, I think autocannon/heavy bolter spam is the best bet. Obliterators are good too, although their range leaves something to be desired.

A forgefiend with daemonforge will do good work as well.

One problem chaos has that a lot of people mention is we really need our strategems for our units to work as well as possible, but since DE players can shut those down I see a lot of people saying you can't rely on things like Daemonforge, Endless cacophony and VotLW anymore, but I disagree. If your opponent is burning through 3cp to stop you from using your strategems, he will be out of them by the second turn. Lean into it, use as many strategems as you can and force him to make the choice.

That's all I've got, it is a very strong book. I am glad DE players are getting their time in the sun They deserve it.

I just double-checked, it seems you are correct and I've been using Death Hex wrongish. I've been using it exclusively to target big things or characters. Knowing that it does in fact target units....I've got some Grots to murder!

 chimeara wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

As Chaos I get Death Hex, but that's about it. Unfortunately it only targets single models.

wrong , death hex target units not single models, actually death hex might be a great game changer in many matches, i killed wraiths, Mortarion, Dp's, termies with stormshield with it.

 blackmage wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

As Chaos I get Death Hex, but that's about it. Unfortunately it only targets single models.

wrong , death hex target units not single models, actually death hex might be a great game changer in many matches, i killed wraiths, Mortarion, Dp's, termies with stormshield with it.

GG reading the next 2 posts after that one, as they answered and learned this already.

But yes, it is a very good spell that should be taken against anything you think will have great invul saves IMO.