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Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/27 23:07:16


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


I think the Emperor intended to be a god, he destroyed all the churches and religions, I think he laid the groundwork for his apotheosis, he must of known religion would always exist, even the cult of the lectitio divinitatus had been about for most of the crusade, even one of his Primarchs with more capacity and potential than any human, believed that he was a god. he obviously knows the power of faith and he must have seen one future where he reigns as a god and how successful (and unsuccessful) it was. Without religion, he would be unable to keep alliances with the Mechanicum and purposely let them have their religion as it helped with the treaty of Mars and the source of their creative ingenuity came from the "Dragon" he placed on Mars. Its also helped with Terra's authority, as other planets across the universe see it as the holy land.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 09:24:15


Post by: pm713


So why did he spend so long saying he wasn't a God?

I don't see why he didn't just conquer Mars. At the time he could have easily done it with his mega awesome psy powers.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 09:31:02


Post by: Disciple of Fate


The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

He let Mars have its religion because he needed the awesome manufacturing capabilities for his GC. Besides, a lot of god worship in the HH turns out to be of aspects of Chaos Gods, that risk isn't really there for Mars and its colonies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
So why did he spend so long saying he wasn't a God?

I don't see why he didn't just conquer Mars. At the time he could have easily done it with his mega awesome psy powers.

He was just being pragmatic, plenty of human worlds were allowed to bend the knee as long as it furthered his overall goals. Mars being the most important one of those.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 09:45:45


Post by: pm713


But Mars got a lot of independance rather than being one planet under Big E's control. There's just as much risk with the Martian Cult as other religions if not more and he could have just mind controlled them, instituted his athiestic rule and moved on. Humanity could have waited a bit longer for his Crusades.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 10:06:58


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Yes, because Mars believed Empy was a herald of the Omnissiah, their fath bound them to the Emperor as an extension of their god's power. That's much less risky than say the WB home planet where they worshipped an aspect of the Chaos Gods. The Martian Cult might be quirky, but it wasn't actively working against the Emperor's goal and easy to align with. They can have some more independence because they follow you out of conviction as opposed to following you because you beat their ass into compliance.

Going to war with Mars would have been a terrible idea, because Mars basically supplied everything the Emperor needed to hold his GC and his victory in a war with Mars was in no way certain with Mars having the overwhelming advantage in tech (and I assume troops, ships and defences considering Earth was technobarb land Mars raided). Plus even if he had won, would Mars in the aftermath still be able to have produced what he needed? Far too risky.



Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 11:21:04


Post by: pm713


They also have a C'Tan sleeping on their planet that they think is the Omnissiah instead. I'm pretty sure other planets that complied didn't get the Mechanicus treatment.

There's the thing. It's not that hard. The lore bigs up the Emperors power so much that he could easily just paralyse or outright mind control the existing priests and then train up a next generation loyal to him from day one before killing off the old ones.
He'd have a planet with no risk of C'Tan worship, no questionable loyalties and wouldn't have so much as scratched the facilities he needed.

Without the psychic powers then his actions become far more reasonable and I'd agree it made sense. It's one of the common issues with Warhammer - The lore makes sense then they go back and add details that make it less sensible.
Like how Primarchs are supposedly military geniuses but don't really come across that way.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 11:29:10


Post by: Slipspace


IIRC, there are quite a few hints, most obviously in The Last Church, that the Emperor has two problems with religion. Firstly, and most obviously, it's often just Chaos worship in disguise. More subtly, though, there seem to be suggestions that he Emperor doesn't understand religion on a fundamental level - not in the sense that an atheist might just decide they don't believe in a higher power but in a much more basic way. The Emperor has never had to answer certain fundamental questions about life and the universe because his intellect allows him to know the answers. He doesn't have to grapple with concepts like where humans fit into the universe, which are often the sort of things that spark religions into life. It's a bit like a 2-dimensional creature having no way of truly understanding a 3-dimensional world.

So I don't think he was trying to be a god, I just don't think he was properly equipped to steer humanity away from religion so ended up doing a bunch of things that were possibly counter-productive. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have understood why people worshipped him either.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 12:04:26


Post by: nareik


He wanted thi mans to have faith in humanity, instead of inventing non-human constructs (such as gods).

Part of his effort to do this was to play up his own human side, instead of resorting to using his godlike powers at every chance.

He hoped through faith in humanity he could aid the human races evolution into a psychic race that was not vulnerable to the predations of daemons. This is much like how orks faith in orkiness and the ork ways tend to keep them safe from chaos.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 12:04:38


Post by: Disciple of Fate


pm713 wrote:
They also have a C'Tan sleeping on their planet that they think is the Omnissiah instead. I'm pretty sure other planets that complied didn't get the Mechanicus treatment.

There's the thing. It's not that hard. The lore bigs up the Emperors power so much that he could easily just paralyse or outright mind control the existing priests and then train up a next generation loyal to him from day one before killing off the old ones.
He'd have a planet with no risk of C'Tan worship, no questionable loyalties and wouldn't have so much as scratched the facilities he needed.

Without the psychic powers then his actions become far more reasonable and I'd agree it made sense. It's one of the common issues with Warhammer - The lore makes sense then they go back and add details that make it less sensible.
Like how Primarchs are supposedly military geniuses but don't really come across that way.

Because other planets don't have to offer what Mars and its colonies have to offer really. Most human worlds just have humans, that's it, meanwhile Mars and its colonies are vast planet wide factories and shipyards sustaining the Imperial. Fighting them would end up in a ton of both production as well as material losses that you can't recover without STC templates. Regular human planets just have some human lives being lost which the Imperium has in abundance.

While the Emperor is a genius arguably, he can't just mind control them. They have vast amounts of knowledge the Emperor doesn't possess. Killing them off means that most of it would get lost. For the most part the Cult of Mars is the only faction that has preserved tech from the Golden Age to any extent. Besides, we have no way of knowing if the Emperor could actually mind control to such an extent (or if he was even that technologically gifted beyond some niche projects), if he could why didn't he just turn the traitor legions to kill themselves? The Emperor is powerful, but he hasn't shown that amount of power.

I think the Primarchs suffer from being written by people who play war games with plastic puppets, not with any actual military knowledge/background, you don't have to be a tactical genius for that and tactical genius on the TT translates horribly into a 'real-life' story.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 12:32:03


Post by: pm713


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
pm713 wrote:
They also have a C'Tan sleeping on their planet that they think is the Omnissiah instead. I'm pretty sure other planets that complied didn't get the Mechanicus treatment.

There's the thing. It's not that hard. The lore bigs up the Emperors power so much that he could easily just paralyse or outright mind control the existing priests and then train up a next generation loyal to him from day one before killing off the old ones.
He'd have a planet with no risk of C'Tan worship, no questionable loyalties and wouldn't have so much as scratched the facilities he needed.

Without the psychic powers then his actions become far more reasonable and I'd agree it made sense. It's one of the common issues with Warhammer - The lore makes sense then they go back and add details that make it less sensible.
Like how Primarchs are supposedly military geniuses but don't really come across that way.

Because other planets don't have to offer what Mars and its colonies have to offer really. Most human worlds just have humans, that's it, meanwhile Mars and its colonies are vast planet wide factories and shipyards sustaining the Imperial. Fighting them would end up in a ton of both production as well as material losses that you can't recover without STC templates. Regular human planets just have some human lives being lost which the Imperium has in abundance.

While the Emperor is a genius arguably, he can't just mind control them. They have vast amounts of knowledge the Emperor doesn't possess. Killing them off means that most of it would get lost. For the most part the Cult of Mars is the only faction that has preserved tech from the Golden Age to any extent. Besides, we have no way of knowing if the Emperor could actually mind control to such an extent (or if he was even that technologically gifted beyond some niche projects), if he could why didn't he just turn the traitor legions to kill themselves? The Emperor is powerful, but he hasn't shown that amount of power.

I think the Primarchs suffer from being written by people who play war games with plastic puppets, not with any actual military knowledge/background, you don't have to be a tactical genius for that and tactical genius on the TT translates horribly into a 'real-life' story.

The man singlehandedly powered a beacon bright enough to be seen across the Galaxy while wandering around killing things with incredible psychic power. He can at least mind control some tech priests which skips around the knowledge issue. Mind control them, force them to pass on the knowledge then move on. He can't just do that to Traitor Legions because he was busy holding the Golden Throne together or trying to kill Horus the Chaos Avatar. Then he was holding himself together so he didn't die prior to going on the Throne again.

He doesn't need to do that much. Just mind control the senior priests and get them away from safety, abduct them, take their knowledge and give it to his side and then he can take out the rest. Which seems much more like the Emperor - killing everyone he sees as expendable and in the way.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 13:17:46


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Wandered around and had to kill things is entirely different from mind controlling and brain washing an entire planet (if he could then he is just wasting time on some sort of bloodsport instead of warping into orbit and turning on the suicide power). I'm not denying he is an incredibly powerful psyker, but that doesn't mean his powers can do anything or are limitless. We don't know if he can actually rip knowledge out of minds like that, if he could why didn't he do so to spread the manufacture of forgeworld material to other Imperial planets? Nothing he did demonstrates that he could just do everything by himself by mind ripping others.

You forget that the Emperor has a moment between him getting off the throne and fighting Horus. If he really is as powerful as you say he could have snapped his fingers once he got up and ended the siege of Terra then and there. Once we reach the kind of planetary level mind control powers the fact that he even had to get in harm's way is stupid.

Were talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands of tech priests, the most senior of which are barely human. The Emperor hasn't displayed power like you're describing now, the closest he has come is forcing the WB legion to kneel in the ruins of Monarchia. If he could actually see what swims arpund in people's minds he would have found about about the Chaos worshipping of the older WB members like Khor in no time.


The Cult of Mars isn't so dangerous that the Emperor had to go to such lengths to wipe it out, seeing as it isn't Chaos inspired like many others.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 16:17:36


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I thought the presence of the C'Tan on Mars was what made Mars so technologically advanced and allowed the humans of the Dark Age of Technology to develop near parity with the hundred-million-year-old Eldar Empire. Plus, the C'Tan gave the Necrons a form of FTL travel that doesn't use the warp, and we all know how important the Emperor thought finding a way around warp travel was for the future of humanity.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 17:19:13


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.

He let Mars have its religion because he needed the awesome manufacturing capabilities for his GC. Besides, a lot of god worship in the HH turns out to be of aspects of Chaos Gods, that risk isn't really there for Mars and its colonies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
So why did he spend so long saying he wasn't a God?

I don't see why he didn't just conquer Mars. At the time he could have easily done it with his mega awesome psy powers.

He was just being pragmatic, plenty of human worlds were allowed to bend the knee as long as it furthered his overall goals. Mars being the most important one of those.


Because I think he needed to keep the world secular until he completed the Crusade or until his enthronement on the golden throne if he knew that would happen which I don't think he did because he intended Magnus to sit there. He would have to let it happen organically, if he destroyed the churches and religions and then just suddenly made himself a god, people wouldn't buy it. So I think he had to keep up appearances with secularism until everyone started to believe in him and the cult took off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I thought the presence of the C'Tan on Mars was what made Mars so technologically advanced and allowed the humans of the Dark Age of Technology to develop near parity with the hundred-million-year-old Eldar Empire. Plus, the C'Tan gave the Necrons a form of FTL travel that doesn't use the warp, and we all know how important the Emperor thought finding a way around warp travel was for the future of humanity.


It isn't a 100% fact that it is a C'tan shard.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 17:23:09


Post by: BigbyWolf


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think the Emperor intended to be a god, he destroyed all the churches and religions, I think he laid the groundwork for his apotheosis, he must of known religion would always exist, even the cult of the lectitio divinitatus had been about for most of the crusade, even one of his Primarchs with more capacity and potential than any human, believed that he was a god. he obviously knows the power of faith and he must have seen one future where he reigns as a god and how successful (and unsuccessful) it was. Without religion, he would be unable to keep alliances with the Mechanicum and purposely let them have their religion as it helped with the treaty of Mars and the source of their creative ingenuity came from the "Dragon" he placed on Mars. Its also helped with Terra's authority, as other planets across the universe see it as the holy land.


Why would he need to keep lying after the great crusade began? More importantly why would he have destroyed all of Lorgar's hopes and dreams if that were The Emperor's plan all along?



Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 17:44:28


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Yes, how the Emperor treated Lorgar and his actions on Monarchia really don't line up with making it happen organically. There is no reason why the Emperor would be actively surpressing it if it was meant to happen anyway. At least you would expect a god like being to habe gone about it in a less stupid manner then.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 18:14:29


Post by: JamesY


I don't think so, I can't recall which Heresy novel it was, but it said his intention was to ensure the safe evolution of man into a fully psychic race. Once the crusade was done and the webway in mans control, he intended to fade back into obscurity and anonymity. I see no reason to reject that idea, and would rather accept that as a motive than that he just had an ego larger than his empire.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 18:25:31


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 BigbyWolf wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think the Emperor intended to be a god, he destroyed all the churches and religions, I think he laid the groundwork for his apotheosis, he must of known religion would always exist, even the cult of the lectitio divinitatus had been about for most of the crusade, even one of his Primarchs with more capacity and potential than any human, believed that he was a god. he obviously knows the power of faith and he must have seen one future where he reigns as a god and how successful (and unsuccessful) it was. Without religion, he would be unable to keep alliances with the Mechanicum and purposely let them have their religion as it helped with the treaty of Mars and the source of their creative ingenuity came from the "Dragon" he placed on Mars. Its also helped with Terra's authority, as other planets across the universe see it as the holy land.


Why would he need to keep lying after the great crusade began? More importantly why would he have destroyed all of Lorgar's hopes and dreams if that were The Emperor's plan all along?



Because I think he needed to keep the world secular until he completed the Crusade or until his enthronement on the golden throne if he knew that would happen which I don't think he did because he intended Magnus to sit there. He would have to let it happen organically, if he destroyed the churches and religions and then just suddenly made himself a god, people wouldn't buy it. So I think he had to keep up appearances with secularism until everyone started to believe in him and the cult took off. I think Lorgars dreams were too soon, the Emperor doesn't care about destroying Lorgars hope if its in the best interests of the species. Censuring Lorgar would be what was expected of him, if he was pushing the Imperial truth.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, how the Emperor treated Lorgar and his actions on Monarchia really don't line up with making it happen organically. There is no reason why the Emperor would be actively surpressing it if it was meant to happen anyway. At least you would expect a god like being to habe gone about it in a less stupid manner then.


Because if he forced himself into being a god there would be resistance, like the priest in the last church of terra. If he didn't destroy all the churches and religions, people wouldn't freely start to believe in the Emperor, there'd be resistance and wars even, which always happens with religion, if he destroyed religion in place of secularism, maybe he'd keep doing that, so hundreds of years past and everyone would forget about the past religions as the new generations came. If he just said 'I am your god worship me' it wouldn't have worked, in his time people thought he was a god but most people didn't.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 19:20:31


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, how the Emperor treated Lorgar and his actions on Monarchia really don't line up with making it happen organically. There is no reason why the Emperor would be actively surpressing it if it was meant to happen anyway. At least you would expect a god like being to habe gone about it in a less stupid manner then.


Because if he forced himself into being a god there would be resistance, like the priest in the last church of terra. If he didn't destroy all the churches and religions, people wouldn't freely start to believe in the Emperor, there'd be resistance and wars even, which always happens with religion, if he destroyed religion in place of secularism, maybe he'd keep doing that, so hundreds of years past and everyone would forget about the past religions as the new generations came. If he just said 'I am your god worship me' it wouldn't have worked, in his time people thought he was a god but most people didn't.

But the Emperor wasn't forcing anyone, the WB were converting and preaching, not forcing people to worship at the end of a bolter. The Emperor came down incredibly harshly, not just against the WB but also those that worshipped him. How does that work? He was already eradicating whole religions and worlds to achieve compliance and could have easily installed himself as a god from the beginning of the GC. People fought against the Emperor regardless of that.

People were already freely worshipping him and he punished them for it. Also most people do believe he is a god of some sort, his cult was already actively spreading during the GC which is a significant part of the start of the HH series, which is why he has to so vehemently deny it (as well as the whole AdMech thinking he is their Jesus basically). He would have never had to deny he was a god if that was his final goal. He just would have not actively promoted it if he wanted to avoid appearances.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 19:50:13


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, how the Emperor treated Lorgar and his actions on Monarchia really don't line up with making it happen organically. There is no reason why the Emperor would be actively surpressing it if it was meant to happen anyway. At least you would expect a god like being to habe gone about it in a less stupid manner then.


Because if he forced himself into being a god there would be resistance, like the priest in the last church of terra. If he didn't destroy all the churches and religions, people wouldn't freely start to believe in the Emperor, there'd be resistance and wars even, which always happens with religion, if he destroyed religion in place of secularism, maybe he'd keep doing that, so hundreds of years past and everyone would forget about the past religions as the new generations came. If he just said 'I am your god worship me' it wouldn't have worked, in his time people thought he was a god but most people didn't.

But the Emperor wasn't forcing anyone, the WB were converting and preaching, not forcing people to worship at the end of a bolter. The Emperor came down incredibly harshly, not just against the WB but also those that worshipped him. How does that work? He was already eradicating whole religions and worlds to achieve compliance and could have easily installed himself as a god from the beginning of the GC. People fought against the Emperor regardless of that.

People were already freely worshipping him and he punished them for it. Also most people do believe he is a god of some sort, his cult was already actively spreading during the GC which is a significant part of the start of the HH series, which is why he has to so vehemently deny it (as well as the whole AdMech thinking he is their Jesus basically). He would have never had to deny he was a god if that was his final goal. He just would have not actively promoted it if he wanted to avoid appearances.


You don't understand what I'm saying. Doesn't matter though, It's just my opinion that he intended to be a god. The lectitio divinitatus was written on the basis that only a god can deny his own divinity, If he didn't destroy religions he would have blow back in making himself a god, the Imperial cult at the time was small, and they believe that he was a god because he denied being a god, so the Emperor would logically continue on that basis, and also he would continue to promote the Imperial truth because the longer humanity were left without religion the less they would fight against the Emperor being a god as time went on. So if he is making it look like he is for secularism then he would censure people believing in him as being a god. The emperor works on timelines far in advance than humans. I just think he was laying the groundworks.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 19:58:56


Post by: pm713


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wandered around and had to kill things is entirely different from mind controlling and brain washing an entire planet (if he could then he is just wasting time on some sort of bloodsport instead of warping into orbit and turning on the suicide power). I'm not denying he is an incredibly powerful psyker, but that doesn't mean his powers can do anything or are limitless. We don't know if he can actually rip knowledge out of minds like that, if he could why didn't he do so to spread the manufacture of forgeworld material to other Imperial planets? Nothing he did demonstrates that he could just do everything by himself by mind ripping others.

You forget that the Emperor has a moment between him getting off the throne and fighting Horus. If he really is as powerful as you say he could have snapped his fingers once he got up and ended the siege of Terra then and there. Once we reach the kind of planetary level mind control powers the fact that he even had to get in harm's way is stupid.

Were talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands of tech priests, the most senior of which are barely human. The Emperor hasn't displayed power like you're describing now, the closest he has come is forcing the WB legion to kneel in the ruins of Monarchia. If he could actually see what swims arpund in people's minds he would have found about about the Chaos worshipping of the older WB members like Khor in no time.


The Cult of Mars isn't so dangerous that the Emperor had to go to such lengths to wipe it out, seeing as it isn't Chaos inspired like many others.

He's powerful enough to create what's effectively a ball of energy so powerful it's seen across the Galaxy, while also obliterating some of the most powerful Orks to ever exist or forcing an entire Legion to kneel. Mind control is very much within his power. I'm not saying he needs to rip knowledge out of someones head just mind control them and get them to teach people or record it.

The reasons to not do it are either mind control is just not a thing in Warhammer which I think is incorrect although I can't source it. Or much more simply it didn't occur to him which is very plausible given his other actions like not caring a fair few Primarchs pretty clearly had 0 loyalty to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I thought the presence of the C'Tan on Mars was what made Mars so technologically advanced and allowed the humans of the Dark Age of Technology to develop near parity with the hundred-million-year-old Eldar Empire. Plus, the C'Tan gave the Necrons a form of FTL travel that doesn't use the warp, and we all know how important the Emperor thought finding a way around warp travel was for the future of humanity.

They in no way had near parity with the Eldar. Plus the non Warp FTL is a grey issue now as they've not been mentioned since newcrons AFAIK.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 20:23:54


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, how the Emperor treated Lorgar and his actions on Monarchia really don't line up with making it happen organically. There is no reason why the Emperor would be actively surpressing it if it was meant to happen anyway. At least you would expect a god like being to habe gone about it in a less stupid manner then.


Because if he forced himself into being a god there would be resistance, like the priest in the last church of terra. If he didn't destroy all the churches and religions, people wouldn't freely start to believe in the Emperor, there'd be resistance and wars even, which always happens with religion, if he destroyed religion in place of secularism, maybe he'd keep doing that, so hundreds of years past and everyone would forget about the past religions as the new generations came. If he just said 'I am your god worship me' it wouldn't have worked, in his time people thought he was a god but most people didn't.

But the Emperor wasn't forcing anyone, the WB were converting and preaching, not forcing people to worship at the end of a bolter. The Emperor came down incredibly harshly, not just against the WB but also those that worshipped him. How does that work? He was already eradicating whole religions and worlds to achieve compliance and could have easily installed himself as a god from the beginning of the GC. People fought against the Emperor regardless of that.

People were already freely worshipping him and he punished them for it. Also most people do believe he is a god of some sort, his cult was already actively spreading during the GC which is a significant part of the start of the HH series, which is why he has to so vehemently deny it (as well as the whole AdMech thinking he is their Jesus basically). He would have never had to deny he was a god if that was his final goal. He just would have not actively promoted it if he wanted to avoid appearances.


You don't understand what I'm saying. Doesn't matter though, It's just my opinion that he intended to be a god. The lectitio divinitatus was written on the basis that only a god can deny his own divinity, If he didn't destroy religions he would have blow back in making himself a god, the Imperial cult at the time was small, and they believe that he was a god because he denied being a god, so the Emperor would logically continue on that basis, and also he would continue to promote the Imperial truth because the longer humanity were left without religion the less they would fight against the Emperor being a god as time went on. So if he is making it look like he is for secularism then he would censure people believing in him as being a god. The emperor works on timelines far in advance than humans. I just think he was laying the groundworks.

I do understand what you're saying, the issue is that the Emperor commits to actions that not only contradict your opinion but actively tried to undermine it for no logical reasons.

The LD was written by Lorgar who was convinced the Emperor was a god untill the Emperor destroyed Lorgar's faith. That directly contradicts your opinion that the Emperor wanted to become a god freely, Lorgar freely believed it and got punished over it. That action directly contradicts your opinion.

Again, he didn't destroy religions because he wanted to become a god, he destroyed religions because more often than not the Chaos Gods were behind them. The WB are the best example of this, Chaos worshiping homeworld, they freely convert to the Emperor and the Emperor drives them right back into the arms of Chaos. He didn't get blow back from them, he was the one doing the blow back. The WB already weren't fighting the belief of the Emperor's divinity and he crushed them and the faithful over it, how do you rhyme that with "the less they would fight against the Emperor being a god as time went on"?

If he was laying the groundwork he wouldn't have acted so harshly against Lorgar, who was the primary driver of the grassroots movement that turned the Emperor into a god later on through the LD. That was an incredibly short sighted action for someone who
"works on timelines far in advance".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Wandered around and had to kill things is entirely different from mind controlling and brain washing an entire planet (if he could then he is just wasting time on some sort of bloodsport instead of warping into orbit and turning on the suicide power). I'm not denying he is an incredibly powerful psyker, but that doesn't mean his powers can do anything or are limitless. We don't know if he can actually rip knowledge out of minds like that, if he could why didn't he do so to spread the manufacture of forgeworld material to other Imperial planets? Nothing he did demonstrates that he could just do everything by himself by mind ripping others.

You forget that the Emperor has a moment between him getting off the throne and fighting Horus. If he really is as powerful as you say he could have snapped his fingers once he got up and ended the siege of Terra then and there. Once we reach the kind of planetary level mind control powers the fact that he even had to get in harm's way is stupid.

Were talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands of tech priests, the most senior of which are barely human. The Emperor hasn't displayed power like you're describing now, the closest he has come is forcing the WB legion to kneel in the ruins of Monarchia. If he could actually see what swims arpund in people's minds he would have found about about the Chaos worshipping of the older WB members like Khor in no time.


The Cult of Mars isn't so dangerous that the Emperor had to go to such lengths to wipe it out, seeing as it isn't Chaos inspired like many others.

He's powerful enough to create what's effectively a ball of energy so powerful it's seen across the Galaxy, while also obliterating some of the most powerful Orks to ever exist or forcing an entire Legion to kneel. Mind control is very much within his power. I'm not saying he needs to rip knowledge out of someones head just mind control them and get them to teach people or record it.

The reasons to not do it are either mind control is just not a thing in Warhammer which I think is incorrect although I can't source it. Or much more simply it didn't occur to him which is very plausible given his other actions like not caring a fair few Primarchs pretty clearly had 0 loyalty to him.

But the Emperor needed the Astronomicon to focus through to be able to do that, he couldn't do it unaided. Yes he could fight or force a legion to kneel, but that is on a different level from mind controlling an entire planet. If the Emperor had that power he would never had to leave his ship. He could have saved Angron from his fate by snapping his fingers and not let his comrades get butchered. The Emperor didn't have that power and if he really did the whole HH endgame becomes even more stupid.

And if he mind controls someone how can he force them to teach something if he can't access the information? Mind control is basically puppeting, it doesn't enable you to live through them or know what they know, because then how did he not immediatly see through Kor on Monarchia?

I'm pretty sure mind control was a psyker power in the TT. But again, if the Emperor could mind control on such a scale as to wipe out the Cult of Mars then nothing and no one should have been able to challenge him, certainly not some measily Space Marines in the siege of Terra.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 20:39:59


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, how the Emperor treated Lorgar and his actions on Monarchia really don't line up with making it happen organically. There is no reason why the Emperor would be actively surpressing it if it was meant to happen anyway. At least you would expect a god like being to habe gone about it in a less stupid manner then.


Because if he forced himself into being a god there would be resistance, like the priest in the last church of terra. If he didn't destroy all the churches and religions, people wouldn't freely start to believe in the Emperor, there'd be resistance and wars even, which always happens with religion, if he destroyed religion in place of secularism, maybe he'd keep doing that, so hundreds of years past and everyone would forget about the past religions as the new generations came. If he just said 'I am your god worship me' it wouldn't have worked, in his time people thought he was a god but most people didn't.

But the Emperor wasn't forcing anyone, the WB were converting and preaching, not forcing people to worship at the end of a bolter. The Emperor came down incredibly harshly, not just against the WB but also those that worshipped him. How does that work? He was already eradicating whole religions and worlds to achieve compliance and could have easily installed himself as a god from the beginning of the GC. People fought against the Emperor regardless of that.

People were already freely worshipping him and he punished them for it. Also most people do believe he is a god of some sort, his cult was already actively spreading during the GC which is a significant part of the start of the HH series, which is why he has to so vehemently deny it (as well as the whole AdMech thinking he is their Jesus basically). He would have never had to deny he was a god if that was his final goal. He just would have not actively promoted it if he wanted to avoid appearances.


You don't understand what I'm saying. Doesn't matter though, It's just my opinion that he intended to be a god. The lectitio divinitatus was written on the basis that only a god can deny his own divinity, If he didn't destroy religions he would have blow back in making himself a god, the Imperial cult at the time was small, and they believe that he was a god because he denied being a god, so the Emperor would logically continue on that basis, and also he would continue to promote the Imperial truth because the longer humanity were left without religion the less they would fight against the Emperor being a god as time went on. So if he is making it look like he is for secularism then he would censure people believing in him as being a god. The emperor works on timelines far in advance than humans. I just think he was laying the groundworks.

I do understand what you're saying, the issue is that the Emperor commits to actions that not only contradict your opinion but actively tried to undermine it for no logical reasons.

The LD was written by Lorgar who was convinced the Emperor was a god untill the Emperor destroyed Lorgar's faith. That directly contradicts your opinion that the Emperor wanted to become a god freely, Lorgar freely believed it and got punished over it. That action directly contradicts your opinion.

Again, he didn't destroy religions because he wanted to become a god, he destroyed religions because more often than not the Chaos Gods were behind them. The WB are the best example of this, Chaos worshiping homeworld, they freely convert to the Emperor and the Emperor drives them right back into the arms of Chaos. He didn't get blow back from them, he was the one doing the blow back. The WB already weren't fighting the belief of the Emperor's divinity and he crushed them and the faithful over it, how do you rhyme that with "the less they would fight against the Emperor being a god as time went on"?

If he was laying the groundwork he wouldn't have acted so harshly against Lorgar, who was the primary driver of the grassroots movement that turned the Emperor into a god later on through the LD. That was an incredibly short sighted action for someone who
"works on timelines far in advance".


The LD was written by Lorgar but the Emperor could have seen that as the foundation of the religion, he didn't have to write it himself, I never said he destroyed religion because he wanted to be a god, I said that I think that's what he did. I never said the WB would give him blow-back, you don't understand anything that I'm saying. I said he censured the WB because if he was pretending to show that he was a secular leader against religion, then he would have to act like it, and someone that is a secularist would censure one of their generals for going against their commands etc. i.e. the Imperial truth. The blowback I was talking about was not from the WB it was from any religion from the human population, if they still had their religions they would fight the Emperor if he commanded that they worship him, it would take generations for them to forget about the gods they worshipped and in that time a belief in him could grow naturally and if it grew naturally people would be more inclined to follow him rather than being forced to by him dictating that he was a god. Being a secularist would be the only way he could destroy religions, him saying I'm a god and you will now worship me would be met with extreme resistance.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 20:46:41


Post by: pm713


Why the focus on mind controlling planets? All you need is to mind control the knowledgeable people and tell them to write their knowledge down.
As for not knowing about Chaos marines that's very easy to explain. He didn't check. The Emperor doesn't check things. That's why he has dumb plans like the Webway project and galactic genocide.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 20:52:44


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


pm713 wrote:
Why the focus on mind controlling planets? All you need is to mind control the knowledgeable people and tell them to write their knowledge down.
As for not knowing about Chaos marines that's very easy to explain. He didn't check. The Emperor doesn't check things. That's why he has dumb plans like the Webway project and galactic genocide.


How is the webway project dumb, galactic genocide ensures the survival of the species. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its dumb.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 21:04:37


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The LD was written by Lorgar but the Emperor could have seen that as the foundation of the religion, he didn't have to write it himself, I never said he destroyed religion because he wanted to be a god, I said that I think that's what he did. I never said the WB would give him blow-back, you don't understand anything that I'm saying. I said he censured the WB because if he was pretending to show that he was a secular leader against religion, then he would have to act like it, and someone that is a secularist would censure one of their generals for going against their commands etc. i.e. the Imperial truth. The blowback I was talking about was not from the WB it was from any religion from the human population, if they still had their religions they would fight the Emperor if he commanded that they worship him, it would take generations for them to forget about the gods they worshipped and in that time a belief in him could grow naturally and if it grew naturally people would be more inclined to follow him rather than being forced to by him dictating that he was a god. Being a secularist would be the only way he could destroy religions, him saying I'm a god and you will now worship me would be met with extreme resistance.

Repeating over and over that I understand doesn't make it true. What the Emperor did directly contradicts your opinion by going far into the other direction. If he wanted to just make a public show against the WB he didn't have tk humiliate them in the ruins of their achievements brought down by their most hated rivals. There is pretending with a long term plan and downright sabotaging the primary driver between what he was in your opinion trying to achieve. Besides the Emperor still ran a quasi dictatorship, regular joe wouldn't have heard the details of the Emperor punishing the WB down to the detail if they heard it at all.

I understand you were talking about general pop blow back. My point was that the WB were converting said general pop without that blow back because they were so good at it. If the Emperor really had that plan he would have just used the WB as his missionaries. The whole destroy you religious grassroots movement now so they might worship you as a god later makes no sense. You forget that the GC took decades, he didn't have to destroy religions overnight and institute his worship immediatly.

And even if he did, would it really matter? If he had indoctrinated his crusade forces from the start then no resistance would have mattered as no human empire was strong enough to oppose them. Again, his actions during the GC don't back up your long term plan opinion regardless of force or not.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 21:05:31


Post by: pm713


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why the focus on mind controlling planets? All you need is to mind control the knowledgeable people and tell them to write their knowledge down.
As for not knowing about Chaos marines that's very easy to explain. He didn't check. The Emperor doesn't check things. That's why he has dumb plans like the Webway project and galactic genocide.


How is the webway project dumb, galactic genocide ensures the survival of the species. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its dumb.

Because his whole plan was to break into the Webway which negated the Imperiums best advantage, gave the Eldar a reason to unify against him and was pretty risky because there's no guarantee that there wasn't some nutter Eldar with a distortion bomb who'd kill everyone. The Webway is just a big list of ways that millions of humans will die while the Eldar have every advantage which is assuming they can't just lock out the Emperor.

Galactic GENOCIDE did nothing but endanger humanity. Killing off races that threatened humanity is fair enough but by attacking everyone even if they would have been allies or wanted to be left alone ensures that every single race that exists or would exist became their enemy. It's insane and done just for a nutcases ego.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 21:12:50


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The LD was written by Lorgar but the Emperor could have seen that as the foundation of the religion, he didn't have to write it himself, I never said he destroyed religion because he wanted to be a god, I said that I think that's what he did. I never said the WB would give him blow-back, you don't understand anything that I'm saying. I said he censured the WB because if he was pretending to show that he was a secular leader against religion, then he would have to act like it, and someone that is a secularist would censure one of their generals for going against their commands etc. i.e. the Imperial truth. The blowback I was talking about was not from the WB it was from any religion from the human population, if they still had their religions they would fight the Emperor if he commanded that they worship him, it would take generations for them to forget about the gods they worshipped and in that time a belief in him could grow naturally and if it grew naturally people would be more inclined to follow him rather than being forced to by him dictating that he was a god. Being a secularist would be the only way he could destroy religions, him saying I'm a god and you will now worship me would be met with extreme resistance.

Repeating over and over that I understand doesn't make it true. What the Emperor did directly contradicts your opinion by going far into the other direction. If he wanted to just make a public show against the WB he didn't have tk humiliate them in the ruins of their achievements brought down by their most hated rivals. There is pretending with a long term plan and downright sabotaging the primary driver between what he was in your opinion trying to achieve. Besides the Emperor still ran a quasi dictatorship, regular joe wouldn't have heard the details of the Emperor punishing the WB down to the detail if they heard it at all.

I understand you were talking about general pop blow back. My point was that the WB were converting said general pop without that blow back because they were so good at it. If the Emperor really had that plan he would have just used the WB as his missionaries. The whole destroy you religious grassroots movement now so they might worship you as a god later makes no sense. You forget that the GC took decades, he didn't have to destroy religions overnight and institute his worship immediatly.

And even if he did, would it really matter? If he had indoctrinated his crusade forces from the start then no resistance would have mattered as no human empire was strong enough to oppose them. Again, his actions during the GC don't back up your long term plan opinion regardless of force or not.


The Emperor knew how important symbolism was and everyone found out about the humiliation, just because it was harsh doesn't mean that the Emperor wouldn't do that. The WB were not good at it, they had a handful of planets, which took them up until Mornarchia to build them into perfect religious planets. Those worlds worked because Lorgar really thought the Emperor was a god, if the Emperor dictated that all the Primarchs did that to all the worlds they took it would be common place knowledge and it would show the emperor dictating that people believe in him as a god.So what if the great crusade took ages. It doesn't matter that Astartes meant no one could appose them, its not about apposing, military might is not going to force people to believe in the Emperor as a god. If someone dictated you worship them as a god, no one would do it, they'd just see a tyrant, not a god.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 21:53:12


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Sybolism doesn't mean destroying an incredibly promising opportunity to pave the way to godhood. What the WB were doing was effective without much blow back. They were converting loyal populations. The Emperor censored them because he only cared about speed, hence his use of the Ultramarines to cast down their works. The Word Bearers were amazing at it, they converted whole worlds that were very loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. After Empy censored the WB they highly effectively converted the other worlds they conquered to Chaos worship as well as spreading it to other legions. Again, he didn't have to impose it on other Primarchs, he could have just let the WB work and slowly convert the population. He actively undermined said peaceful efforts and destroyed a world of his faithful, what does that show to your future worshippers?

And again, plenty of worlds saw the Emperor as a tyrant violently bringing them into compliance and casting down their religions. Imposing his worship on them wouldn't have exactly made it any worse, he could have just indocrinated the populations if he really wanted (which he technically already did with his opposition against religion seeing as in 40K gods are real).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Why the focus on mind controlling planets? All you need is to mind control the knowledgeable people and tell them to write their knowledge down.
As for not knowing about Chaos marines that's very easy to explain. He didn't check. The Emperor doesn't check things. That's why he has dumb plans like the Webway project and galactic genocide.

Because you started off talking about the Emperor killing of the Cult of Mars, in which the whole planet is indoctrinated. You were talking about the Emperor just casually mind controlling all the tech priests on Mars. To kill off that belief you would have to be able to control everyone spreading/active in that faith to stop it from spreading to the next generation. And again, we have no idea if mind control which is akin to puppeting can make you force people to write down knowledge, that seemingly isn't how it works, you control their bodies, not their minds.

Also those plans aren't dumb, he has very sound reasoning in universe for both, the webway for reliable troop transportation and the genocide because he believed that as the long night showed it was either the aliens or humans. He had no interest in the surivival or Eldar or any other race.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 22:27:52


Post by: Andykp


Not a big reader of Horus heresy books. I’ve always quite like the mysteries and contradictions and don’t want too much explained but you could answer this as it seems you lot know a lot more about this eras canon than I do. Is it possible that some of the empowered anti worship and anti religious stance was because he knew the real tangible gods were the chaos ones and was trying to stop inadvertent chaos worship? Just an idea that came to me while reading this thread. Could be absolute rubbish. I always believed he was against being a god himself and would be unhappy with the way he is seen now but has no basis in any text I know of.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 22:34:27


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Andykp wrote:
Not a big reader of Horus heresy books. I’ve always quite like the mysteries and contradictions and don’t want too much explained but you could answer this as it seems you lot know a lot more about this eras canon than I do. Is it possible that some of the empowered anti worship and anti religious stance was because he knew the real tangible gods were the chaos ones and was trying to stop inadvertent chaos worship? Just an idea that came to me while reading this thread. Could be absolute rubbish. I always believed he was against being a god himself and would be unhappy with the way he is seen now but has no basis in any text I know of.

That is exactly why the Emperor tried to eradicate religion. He thought if he would eradicate religion to a sufficient extent that the Chaos Gods would be weakened beyond recovery. The Chaos Gods actually present themselves as victims to Horus iirc because of the Emperor trying to usurp their power and eliminate them, to achieve godhood. I think one of the visions shown is that in the future the Emperor has a huge personality cult and the Chaos Gods use it to argue that Horus is going to be abandoned by the Emperor and that Empy is a hypocrit. Of course this actually happens but only because of Horus kinda killing him.

As demonstrated, him wanting to actually be a god or not is debatable, the HH series seems to contradict it so far at least.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 22:38:43


Post by: Andykp


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Not a big reader of Horus heresy books. I’ve always quite like the mysteries and contradictions and don’t want too much explained but you could answer this as it seems you lot know a lot more about this eras canon than I do. Is it possible that some of the empowered anti worship and anti religious stance was because he knew the real tangible gods were the chaos ones and was trying to stop inadvertent chaos worship? Just an idea that came to me while reading this thread. Could be absolute rubbish. I always believed he was against being a god himself and would be unhappy with the way he is seen now but has no basis in any text I know of.

That is exactly why the Emperor tried to eradicate religion. He thought if he would eradicate religion to a sufficient extent that the Chaos Gods would be weakened beyond recovery. The Chaos Gods actually present themselves as victims to Horus iirc because of the Emperor trying to usurp their power and eliminate them, to achieve godhood. I think one of the visions shown is that in the future the Emperor has a huge personality cult and the Chaos Gods use it to argue that Horus is going to be abandoned by the Emperor and that Empy is a hypocrit. Of course this actually happens but only because of Horus kinda killing him.

As demonstrated, him wanting to actually be a god or not is debatable, the HH series seems to contradict it so far at least.


Cheers for the reply. That’s cool thanks. Makes sense. I heard that the emp told guiliman in his little chat that the marines weren’t sons but were tools to serve humanity, (don’t know iff that’s true or not). I liked that as it turns a lot of marine ethos on its head, not all though. And if true kind of proves the chais gods right.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 22:44:09


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Well he certainly sees marines as tools and thought regular humans were meant to rule and lead the Imperium. As for the Primarchs, his attitudes shift between parts, sometimes he seems to see them as only tools and at other times (like during the final showdown with Horus) he genuinely seems to care about at least some of them. Although that might get changed if the HH gravy train actually has a final book in the next decade or two..


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/28 23:17:22


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sybolism doesn't mean destroying an incredibly promising opportunity to pave the way to godhood. What the WB were doing was effective without much blow back. They were converting loyal populations. The Emperor censored them because he only cared about speed, hence his use of the Ultramarines to cast down their works. The Word Bearers were amazing at it, they converted whole worlds that were very loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. After Empy censored the WB they highly effectively converted the other worlds they conquered to Chaos worship as well as spreading it to other legions. Again, he didn't have to impose it on other Primarchs, he could have just let the WB work and slowly convert the population. He actively undermined said peaceful efforts and destroyed a world of his faithful, what does that show to your future worshippers?

And again, plenty of worlds saw the Emperor as a tyrant violently bringing them into compliance and casting down their religions. Imposing his worship on them wouldn't have exactly made it any worse, he could have just indocrinated the populations if he really wanted (which he technically already did with his opposition against religion seeing as in 40K gods are real).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Why the focus on mind controlling planets? All you need is to mind control the knowledgeable people and tell them to write their knowledge down.
As for not knowing about Chaos marines that's very easy to explain. He didn't check. The Emperor doesn't check things. That's why he has dumb plans like the Webway project and galactic genocide.

Because you started off talking about the Emperor killing of the Cult of Mars, in which the whole planet is indoctrinated. You were talking about the Emperor just casually mind controlling all the tech priests on Mars. To kill off that belief you would have to be able to control everyone spreading/active in that faith to stop it from spreading to the next generation. And again, we have no idea if mind control which is akin to puppeting can make you force people to write down knowledge, that seemingly isn't how it works, you control their bodies, not their minds.

Also those plans aren't dumb, he has very sound reasoning in universe for both, the webway for reliable troop transportation and the genocide because he believed that as the long night showed it was either the aliens or humans. He had no interest in the surivival or Eldar or any other race.


No he didn't the Emperor censured them because they were not conquering worlds fast enough but mostly because they spent all their time making their planets, planets of worship. I've already gave an example of why 'letting the word bearers carry on' wouldn't be beneficial if he wanted to become a God. It would have to be mandated that the Imperium was a religious crusade, which would involve tonnes of blow-back. The WB were able to do it probably because Lorgar had genuine faith, he wasn't dictating that become religious, but if the Imperium sought to be a religious crusade the galaxy would see the Imperium as dictating their religion on everyone else, a religion they know nothing about. If the Emperor took over the galaxy and then started to work on influencing the worlds it would take longer than the faith being spread naturally, plus if it was being spread naturally its better in every way than forcing a religion on the populations which evidently will have a whole host of problems, and the fact is that it did spread naturally so its possible that he could have engineered it to some degree, or taken it as the opportunity came and used the faith for his own ends its not impossible for him to have foreseen that..


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 01:16:24


Post by: w1zard


Slipspace wrote:
IIRC, there are quite a few hints, most obviously in The Last Church, that the Emperor has two problems with religion. Firstly, and most obviously, it's often just Chaos worship in disguise. More subtly, though, there seem to be suggestions that he Emperor doesn't understand religion on a fundamental level - not in the sense that an atheist might just decide they don't believe in a higher power but in a much more basic way. The Emperor has never had to answer certain fundamental questions about life and the universe because his intellect allows him to know the answers. He doesn't have to grapple with concepts like where humans fit into the universe, which are often the sort of things that spark religions into life. It's a bit like a 2-dimensional creature having no way of truly understanding a 3-dimensional world.

So I don't think he was trying to be a god, I just don't think he was properly equipped to steer humanity away from religion so ended up doing a bunch of things that were possibly counter-productive. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have understood why people worshipped him either.

This right here, 100%. The emperor doesn't even view the chaos gods as gods... he views them just as extremely powerful daemons... because to someone of his power they really aren't gods, but more like equals. The emperor does not consider himself a god, but he is so far removed from the human condition that he has trouble understanding things that mere mortals take for granted... like a son's need to be loved by his father, and a human's need to find a purpose by serving a higher power then himself, whatever that higher power may be.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It isn't a 100% fact that it is a C'tan shard.

It is outright stated in one of the necron codices that it is. Not just a shard either, the WHOLE unshattered C'Tan.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 06:02:10


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No he didn't the Emperor censured them because they were not conquering worlds fast enough but mostly because they spent all their time making their planets, planets of worship. I've already gave an example of why 'letting the word bearers carry on' wouldn't be beneficial if he wanted to become a God. It would have to be mandated that the Imperium was a religious crusade, which would involve tonnes of blow-back. The WB were able to do it probably because Lorgar had genuine faith, he wasn't dictating that become religious, but if the Imperium sought to be a religious crusade the galaxy would see the Imperium as dictating their religion on everyone else, a religion they know nothing about. If the Emperor took over the galaxy and then started to work on influencing the worlds it would take longer than the faith being spread naturally, plus if it was being spread naturally its better in every way than forcing a religion on the populations which evidently will have a whole host of problems, and the fact is that it did spread naturally so its possible that he could have engineered it to some degree, or taken it as the opportunity came and used the faith for his own ends its not impossible for him to have foreseen that..

Their speed was an important part of their censorship. The Emperor believing they were wasting too much time in spreading faith in him. Its why he used one of the most succesful legions in that aspect, the Ultramarines, to punish them. Afterwards its noted that the Emperor is satisfied with the increased rate with which the WB conquer worlds, of course not knowing that they are also seeding them with Chaos cults.

But letting the WB do their thing wouldn't have made it a religious crusade. The blowback argument makes no sense in that regard because the Emperor also had an army of psychotic serial murderers running around in the form of the Night Lords committing unspeakable atrocities on people. The Emperor was never a friendly guy, he waged horrible wars and more than once compliance had to be reinstated at the business end of a bolter. The Emperor could mandate what the rest of the Imperium would have heard about the WB progress as most expeditionary fleets were very independent. They were spreading it naturally through their conviction and the work of Lorgar provided the foundation on which the later religion was build. So cracking down so harshly on Lorgar and those converted is incredibly counterintuitive to the long term converting idea. Were already talking about a gap of 50 years I believe between the censorship and the HH, the GC stretched across at least 2-3 human generations, what the WB were doing wasn't exactly at breackneck speed threatening stability, seeing as the fluff tried to paint WB planets brought into compliance were amongst the most loyal.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 15:51:41


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No he didn't the Emperor censured them because they were not conquering worlds fast enough but mostly because they spent all their time making their planets, planets of worship. I've already gave an example of why 'letting the word bearers carry on' wouldn't be beneficial if he wanted to become a God. It would have to be mandated that the Imperium was a religious crusade, which would involve tonnes of blow-back. The WB were able to do it probably because Lorgar had genuine faith, he wasn't dictating that become religious, but if the Imperium sought to be a religious crusade the galaxy would see the Imperium as dictating their religion on everyone else, a religion they know nothing about. If the Emperor took over the galaxy and then started to work on influencing the worlds it would take longer than the faith being spread naturally, plus if it was being spread naturally its better in every way than forcing a religion on the populations which evidently will have a whole host of problems, and the fact is that it did spread naturally so its possible that he could have engineered it to some degree, or taken it as the opportunity came and used the faith for his own ends its not impossible for him to have foreseen that..

Their speed was an important part of their censorship. The Emperor believing they were wasting too much time in spreading faith in him. Its why he used one of the most succesful legions in that aspect, the Ultramarines, to punish them. Afterwards its noted that the Emperor is satisfied with the increased rate with which the WB conquer worlds, of course not knowing that they are also seeding them with Chaos cults.

But letting the WB do their thing wouldn't have made it a religious crusade. The blowback argument makes no sense in that regard because the Emperor also had an army of psychotic serial murderers running around in the form of the Night Lords committing unspeakable atrocities on people. The Emperor was never a friendly guy, he waged horrible wars and more than once compliance had to be reinstated at the business end of a bolter. The Emperor could mandate what the rest of the Imperium would have heard about the WB progress as most expeditionary fleets were very independent. They were spreading it naturally through their conviction and the work of Lorgar provided the foundation on which the later religion was build. So cracking down so harshly on Lorgar and those converted is incredibly counterintuitive to the long term converting idea. Were already talking about a gap of 50 years I believe between the censorship and the HH, the GC stretched across at least 2-3 human generations, what the WB were doing wasn't exactly at breackneck speed threatening stability, seeing as the fluff tried to paint WB planets brought into compliance were amongst the most loyal.


If it was left to the Word bearers it would take 100,000 of years to do what they did on the handful of worlds they converted, their are a million worlds in the Imperium, do the math. Blow back couldn't just be ended by the Night Lords, it would happen everywhere it would take longer than the great crusade it would be a constant religious civil war. If he let it happen naturally he wouldn't have to deal with blowback AT ALL, and it would happen quicker than any militarily forced indoctrination.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 15:57:12


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Seeing as we have no numbers, we don't know. But that isn't the point, the point was that the WB were spreading faith without your blow back theory, so why did he censor them over it, it clearly was done freely.

And I'm not taking about the blow back being stopped by the Night Lords. I'm saying the Emperor couldn't care less about blow back hence him employing a legion of walking atrocities. How do you think that was perceived?


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 16:00:51


Post by: greyknight12


I’m pretty sure the fluff about the Emperor being the supreme atheist is new, and probably reflects modern UK attitudes towards religion in the same way that the daemonette models were re-done to reflect modern attitudes towards sexuality.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 16:33:57


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 greyknight12 wrote:
I’m pretty sure the fluff about the Emperor being the supreme atheist is new, and probably reflects modern UK attitudes towards religion in the same way that the daemonette models were re-done to reflect modern attitudes towards sexuality.

Its been around since at least 4th edition, so before the daemonette overhaul. I think that makes it qualify as old.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 16:36:17


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Seeing as we have no numbers, we don't know. But that isn't the point, the point was that the WB were spreading faith without your blow back theory, so why did he censor them over it, it clearly was done freely.

And I'm not taking about the blow back being stopped by the Night Lords. I'm saying the Emperor couldn't care less about blow back hence him employing a legion of walking atrocities. How do you think that was perceived?


You keep ignoring points that I've already made. The Emperor did care about blowback, that's why he made the Primarchs make worlds compliant, the Primarchs couldn't move on to other worlds until the worlds were made compliant. Worlds that couldn't be compliant were destroyed and re-populated, with people that all ready had the Imperial truth, he'd have to repopulate practically every world if he came imposing his religion on them and worlds that were already secular. You keep missing the point, he didn't need to do anything if he let the religion spread naturally, why risk forcing that religion on people, which would cause a whole host of serious problems.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 17:13:21


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Seeing as we have no numbers, we don't know. But that isn't the point, the point was that the WB were spreading faith without your blow back theory, so why did he censor them over it, it clearly was done freely.

And I'm not taking about the blow back being stopped by the Night Lords. I'm saying the Emperor couldn't care less about blow back hence him employing a legion of walking atrocities. How do you think that was perceived?


You keep ignoring points that I've already made. The Emperor did care about blowback, that's why he made the Primarchs make worlds compliant, the Primarchs couldn't move on to other worlds until the worlds were made compliant. Worlds that couldn't be compliant were destroyed and re-populated, with people that all ready had the Imperial truth, he'd have to repopulate practically every world if he came imposing his religion on them and worlds that were already secular. You keep missing the point, he didn't need to do anything if he let the religion spread naturally, why risk forcing that religion on people, which would cause a whole host of serious problems.

And my point was that what the WB did bring worlds into compliance while it would have also done so in a manner of working towards his long term godhood goal you think he holds. Instead, without any blow back from the actions of the WB up to that point, he humiliates them to the bone and destroys their achievements, while crushing a world of the willingly faithful. That's the whole point! The WB plan worked very well and aligned with your theory on the Emperor's end goal and he shat all over it. Why?

You keep missing the point, there was no blow back to the converting done by the WB on their planets, they didn't force it on anyone. So why did the Emperor crush them? It makes no sense in your overall theory. He could have just let it happen and nothing would have come of it. Instead he created the instrument of his downfall. Pretty short sighted for a man with a long term plan.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 18:09:01


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Seeing as we have no numbers, we don't know. But that isn't the point, the point was that the WB were spreading faith without your blow back theory, so why did he censor them over it, it clearly was done freely.

And I'm not taking about the blow back being stopped by the Night Lords. I'm saying the Emperor couldn't care less about blow back hence him employing a legion of walking atrocities. How do you think that was perceived?


You keep ignoring points that I've already made. The Emperor did care about blowback, that's why he made the Primarchs make worlds compliant, the Primarchs couldn't move on to other worlds until the worlds were made compliant. Worlds that couldn't be compliant were destroyed and re-populated, with people that all ready had the Imperial truth, he'd have to repopulate practically every world if he came imposing his religion on them and worlds that were already secular. You keep missing the point, he didn't need to do anything if he let the religion spread naturally, why risk forcing that religion on people, which would cause a whole host of serious problems.

And my point was that what the WB did bring worlds into compliance while it would have also done so in a manner of working towards his long term godhood goal you think he holds. Instead, without any blow back from the actions of the WB up to that point, he humiliates them to the bone and destroys their achievements, while crushing a world of the willingly faithful. That's the whole point! The WB plan worked very well and aligned with your theory on the Emperor's end goal and he shat all over it. Why?

You keep missing the point, there was no blow back to the converting done by the WB on their planets, they didn't force it on anyone. So why did the Emperor crush them? It makes no sense in your overall theory. He could have just let it happen and nothing would have come of it. Instead he created the instrument of his downfall. Pretty short sighted for a man with a long term plan.


No you keep forgetting that I've rebuked the points you've already make, I've addressed why the WB couldn't do what they did on the scale of the whole Imperium it would take them thousands of years, I've explained why the Emperor would have censored them if he wanted to be a god and I've explained why there was no blowback from the WB's This is just going in circles, you keep repeating the same things, you have terrible reading comprehension I'm out.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 18:12:51


Post by: Disciple of Fate


You keep forgetting that wasn't my main point. I never argued that he should have used the WB, I said he could have. I'm arguing that there was no need to punish the WB that harshly if he had your long term plan. Ironic about the reading comprehension really.

My main point throughtout this thread tl;dr If your theory is correct, how does his treatment of the WB not heavily contradict that.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 18:48:58


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
You keep forgetting that wasn't my main point. I never argued that he should have used the WB, I said he could have. I'm arguing that there was no need to punish the WB that harshly if he had your long term plan. Ironic about the reading comprehension really.

My main point throughtout this thread tl;dr If your theory is correct, how does his treatment of the WB not heavily contradict that.


It doesn't.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 20:09:48


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Except for the part where the Emperor directly undermines the foundation upon which the later worship of him is build by doing that to the WB. Lorgar literally wrote the foundational text for the Emperor's godhood and the Emperor crushed him for it, directly setting in motion to eventd that would lead to his physical death. How is that a long term plan? If he really planned on becoming a god later on nothing Lorgar did threatened that.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 20:41:04


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 greyknight12 wrote:
I’m pretty sure the fluff about the Emperor being the supreme atheist is new, and probably reflects modern UK attitudes towards religion in the same way that the daemonette models were re-done to reflect modern attitudes towards sexuality.


No, it was obviously meant to be some tragic irony, that the man who wanted to end humanity's worship of gods became the supreme god worshipped by humanity. What a twist!


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 21:04:11


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Except for the part where the Emperor directly undermines the foundation upon which the later worship of him is build by doing that to the WB. Lorgar literally wrote the foundational text for the Emperor's godhood and the Emperor crushed him for it, directly setting in motion to eventd that would lead to his physical death. How is that a long term plan? If he really planned on becoming a god later on nothing Lorgar did threatened that.


I said I'm done, its far to irritating trying to argue with you.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 21:16:11


Post by: w1zard


 greyknight12 wrote:
I’m pretty sure the fluff about the Emperor being the supreme atheist is new, and probably reflects modern UK attitudes towards religion in the same way that the daemonette models were re-done to reflect modern attitudes towards sexuality.

Honestly, I don't get this. I used to work at a game store and parents are perfectly fine with buying their children graphically violent games where people get decapitated, shot, tortured, etc... but at soon as there is any kind of nudity (even mild nudity) it's unacceptable. Like seeing a boob is somehow worse then seeing someone get stabbed to death. I feel like we have regressed as a society on the topic of sexuality.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 21:19:32


Post by: Disciple of Fate


w1zard wrote:
 greyknight12 wrote:
I’m pretty sure the fluff about the Emperor being the supreme atheist is new, and probably reflects modern UK attitudes towards religion in the same way that the daemonette models were re-done to reflect modern attitudes towards sexuality.

Honestly, I don't get this. I used to work at a game store and parents are perfectly fine with buying their children graphically violent games where people get decapitated, shot, tortured, etc... but at soon as there is any kind of nudity (even mild nudity) it's unacceptable. Like seeing a boob is somehow worse then seeing someone get stabbed to death. I feel like we have regressed as a society on the topic of sexuality.

True, I don't think you can honestly argue that if the deamonettes were redesigned over their sexuality it was because of modern attitudes, it being much more about US attitudes.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 21:24:52


Post by: w1zard


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

True, I don't think you can honestly argue that if the deamonettes were redesigned over their sexuality it was because of modern attitudes, it being much more about US attitudes.

The US didn't used to be this way. The 60s and 70s were fine... according to my dad it wasn't until the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s that we started to get prudish again.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 21:30:33


Post by: Disciple of Fate


w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

True, I don't think you can honestly argue that if the deamonettes were redesigned over their sexuality it was because of modern attitudes, it being much more about US attitudes.

The US didn't used to be this way. The 60s and 70s were fine... according to my dad it wasn't until the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s that we started to get prudish again.

Curiously here it was exactly the other way around, most of society being far more prudish before quickly shedding it. Still though, Warhammer still has some nipple monsters, but I guess its less suggestive than the deamonettes.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 21:33:12


Post by: w1zard


 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Curiously here it was exactly the other way around, most of society being far more prudish before quickly shedding it. Still though, Warhammer still has some nipple monsters, but I guess its less suggestive than the deamonettes.

It's a shame, I really liked those old daemonettes. I am a firm believer that an appropriately modeled and painted slaanesh/EC army should get you kicked out of stores in the US.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 21:55:56


Post by: McMagnus Mindbullets


My take on this is:

Poppa E wanted to eradicate religion in humanity, thus weakening the chaos god's to the extent they could be killed, so any inkling of worship and religion was stamped out as it would always lead to worship of the chaos god's due to human nature (thirst for power, knowledge, etc). After he had conquered the galaxy he would martyr himself, in doing so killing the chaos god's. He would then ascend to godhood and receive worship of him, rather than actually the chaos god's. (Worship, sacrifice, any form of praise to a higher power empowers the chaos god's.) This would lean mankind to absolute enlightenment and acceptance and development of psychic ability could be introduced without danger of corruption. Mankind would be so 'blindly' religious to the emperor that all power lent in their worship went into him, utterly sniffing out other deities. Magnus would sit on the golden throne, sang would rule the galaxy and the other primarchs would fill their roles ( Horus warmaster, Russ executioner, lorgar master of the faith etc)


They way he went about this I disagree with though. I think he was too cold to the primarchs, resulting in many of the key figures in the new age he planned resort to heresy.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 22:04:53


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
My take on this is:

Poppa E wanted to eradicate religion in humanity, thus weakening the chaos god's to the extent they could be killed, so any inkling of worship and religion was stamped out as it would always lead to worship of the chaos god's due to human nature (thirst for power, knowledge, etc). After he had conquered the galaxy he would martyr himself, in doing so killing the chaos god's. He would then ascend to godhood and receive worship of him, rather than actually the chaos god's. (Worship, sacrifice, any form of praise to a higher power empowers the chaos god's.) This would lean mankind to absolute enlightenment and acceptance and development of psychic ability could be introduced without danger of corruption. Mankind would be so 'blindly' religious to the emperor that all power lent in their worship went into him, utterly sniffing out other deities. Magnus would sit on the golden throne, sang would rule the galaxy and the other primarchs would fill their roles ( Horus warmaster, Russ executioner, lorgar master of the faith etc)


They way he went about this I disagree with though. I think he was too cold to the primarchs, resulting in many of the key figures in the new age he planned resort to heresy.


I don't think that had anything to do with them turning, when Erebus got his talons in Horus trying to make him turn Horus couldn't say enough good things about the Emperor, many other did also. The Gods tested all the Primarchs and some were left wanting. I think it had to do with wanting power and freedom. Most of the loyal Primarchs were happy with their station in life. Girlyman only cared about Ultramar, Russ only cared about Fenris and serving the Emperor, Sanguinius knew his fate so he didn't care about power etc. Its a coincidence that 9 turned and 9 stayed loyal, Chaos sent the Primarchs into the galaxy from Luna so that they'd be away from the Emperors guidance, they were destined to turn. Look at Angron, it didn't take anything for him to turn, all he needed was to be pointed towards and enemy, same with Cruze to say he could be anything but the petty sadistic killer he was is insane.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 23:28:12


Post by: pm713


Pretty sure Angron turned because everyone he loved was killed by an apathetic douche and he only wasn't in agony when killing.

I don't see how Mortarion, Fulgrim, Horus were destined to turn. Honestly I'd argue if you put any Traitor Primarch on a less atrocious world they'd be fine. Except Fulgrim who just needed keeping away from demon swords.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/29 23:41:25


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


pm713 wrote:
Pretty sure Angron turned because everyone he loved was killed by an apathetic douche and he only wasn't in agony when killing.

I don't see how Mortarion, Fulgrim, Horus were destined to turn. Honestly I'd argue if you put any Traitor Primarch on a less atrocious world they'd be fine. Except Fulgrim who just needed keeping away from demon swords.


The only reason that he joined the great crusade was because Kharn said he'd be able to fight across the galaxy. He turned because they'd be more carnage with Horus, it made it easy that he hated the Emperor, even before he turned all he cared about was fighting.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/30 13:47:40


Post by: Ketara


I find the thread on the Emperor's 'mind control' powers interesting, and possibly worth pursuing further.

The Emperor might be of overwhelming psychic power; but he still has to largely obey the laws of the materium when it comes to how psychic power is applied. So we should theoretically be able to gauge the difficulty of what he would have to do, the limitations and the consequences by examining how it works for other high level psykers.

When we read the Ravenor books, we can see how a Delta level psyker works. He's capable of invading the mind of a normal person and puppeting them; but they can fight back. He can try to extract knowledge from them, but the more schooled they are in resistance (Cognitae training, etc) and the stronger willed that they are; the harder it is to get what you want out of them. It essentially turns into a battle of wills, and whilst the psyker has an edge (being psychically attacked is exhausting), success is not guaranteed.

It's certainly a long way from being able to simply rip all the knowledge you need from someone.

Even if you can acquire the information you need, you need to be able to absorb it yourself, and then impart it in a coherent manner to others. For a technpriest at the top of his game, the Emperor would in effect have to learn every little piece of binaric cant and technical detail/experience/training.

Furthermore, even in the puppeteering aspect, the host has jerkier movements and other giveaways. A possessor is simply never quite as at home in somebody else's body as the owner is. An interesting additional facet that we have seen when Daemons start possessing others is that the more they try and draw on the knowledge of the host, the more the possessed is able to come to the fore (see the Night Lords Captain in the NL trilogy).

It could be argued that Ravenor and daemons are too low level; but we get a glimpse of the next level up with the likes of Esarhaddon. He's Alpha level and capable of just throwing his mind out like a lassoo to capture others and puppeteer them directly on a scale of thousands at a time. But even then, he was limited to an extent in this by geographic proximity and was directly controlling the bodies, rather than the minds. Varan the Undefeatable was able to co-opt even the most hardened of opponents into willingly serving him through psychic domination; but again, he required them to be within psychic reach. He couldn't just reach out and subjugate an entire planet. His way of domination was more subtle than Esarhaddon's; because he insinuated himself psychically rather than simply blasting the gates down with pure psychic strength.

Probably the most notable in terms of psychic domination would be Teturact from the Soul Drinkers novels. He apparently dominated worlds, and drew much of his strength from the belief and subsuming of others souls. But even he couldn't just automatically co-opt the Soul Drinkers, I believe.

In short, good old Empy could probably do anything he liked to a tech-priest in front of him. If he was in orbit over Mars, he could likely puppeteer a good section of the planet directly. But in terms of actually trying to rip the information from their minds, he'd likely need to be within a certain geographic distance of any individual to try and perform such a feat; with additional distance and other complications increasing the difficulty. That's without even taking into account psy-damping technology and the like.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/06/30 14:28:37


Post by: pm713


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Pretty sure Angron turned because everyone he loved was killed by an apathetic douche and he only wasn't in agony when killing.

I don't see how Mortarion, Fulgrim, Horus were destined to turn. Honestly I'd argue if you put any Traitor Primarch on a less atrocious world they'd be fine. Except Fulgrim who just needed keeping away from demon swords.


The only reason that he joined the great crusade was because Kharn said he'd be able to fight across the galaxy. He turned because they'd be more carnage with Horus, it made it easy that he hated the Emperor, even before he turned all he cared about was fighting.

Which I think you can chalk up to the Nails.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 03:51:28


Post by: Da Butcha


Possibly tangential, but seemingly salient thoughts:

Talking about the religion of Mars without talking about the specifics of the religion of Mars is probably an error. Mars didn't worship some random Sun god or something. They worshipped knowledge, and viewed the Omnissiah as the person who possessed the sum total of knowledge (as an obvious reference to a Messiah). It's even made clear in Mechanicum that not all Martians believe the Omnissiah is an ACTUAL person, as much as a concept (and not all Martians who believe in the Omnissiah believed that it was the Emperor).

Worshipping a concept like knowledge (even if it might be incarnated in a particular person) is very different than most religions. Revering 'provable facts' is an odd sort of 'faith'. It may be that the Emperor believed that, once his personal project was completed, that the Martian 'priesthood' would be in possession of substantially greater knowledge about the universe, and less inclined to view it through any spiritual lens. So it may have been a sort of 'fact-based' faith that he viewed as compatible with his goals.



In Master of Mankind (I believe), it seems fairly well established that the Emperor understands that the increasing psychic 'resonance' of humanity is the greatest threat to our survival as a species, and the psychic resonance is shaped (not powered by) faith in unpredictable ways. However, the current state (before the Horus Heresy) of Mankind requires the use of psychics for stellar travel and navigation, so there is no way to reduce mankind's psychic potential without fatally undermining our position as a species.

Thus, his great project was to discover, explore, understand, and take control of the web way, the massive subspace network utilized but not created by the Eldar (still created by the Old Ones I think). Once this project was complete, Mankind would have no irreplaceable need for psychics (as we could travel and navigate the universe through the web way) and the Emperor could take steps to reduce and eliminate our psychic presence, which would irrevocably weaken Chaos and protect humanity.

It's unclear what he would have done about his OWN psychic potential, but I don't see any concrete suggestion that he wished to become a god himself. The war on faith, to me, seems to have multiple aspects. First, he views faith as something that is fundamentally destructive to humanity, as mentioned in The Last Church. Second, I think he views it as an incorrect understanding of the universe (he's not a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Taoist or whatever, so he obviously doesn't himself think any particular religion is correct). Third, he views it as potentially tied to Chaos, in that you may have a faith which is just an incorrect set of beliefs, or you may end up worshipping a chaos entity that is materially empowered by your worship. So there's multiple reasons for him to suppress it, none of which require him to be surreptitiously supporting faith.

Then, separate from faith, but not completely independent, is the knowledge of Chaos. Just the knowledge that psychic activity can empower, release, and entreat with Chaos entities like daemons means that unscrupulous/desperate/deluded individuals will do so. He may have judged that it would be easier to clamp down on psychic interaction with Chaos by scrupulously denying that information to Humanity rather than by informing them all about it and sternly forbidding any use for that purpose. It's almost like Dad telling the kids to keep out of the workshop, rather than explaining to them what every tool does and how to operate them safely, especially if Dad was planning on selling off his tools anyway.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 04:48:07


Post by: alextroy


Personally, think the Emperor is a sneaky SOB who is capable of making contingency plans in his machinations. Not Tzeetchian levels of plotting, but still much better than the average human or even chaos daemon.

His primary plan was the webway. There was no space in the webway plan for religion, that was too easily subverted by Chaos . He worked to stamp it out, and that included slapping down he Word Bearers.

His backup plan seems to have been godhood.He gave Logar the time needed to set the Cult of the Empreror in motion before trying to bring him into line with the Imperial Creed. Unfortunately, this all went awry when he lost fir Logar and the World Bearers, then Horus and the other traitor legions to Chaos. He won the Heresy, but a a cost probably higher than her foresaw.

Still he has either acheived or nearly achieved godhood. The power of the new Imperial Creed is undeniable with the power of the faith of the Sisters of Battle, Celestine and the Living Saints, long with the spectral Legions of the Damned all pointing towards the his ascention.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 12:39:07


Post by: Disciple of Fate


There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 12:43:55


Post by: pm713


 alextroy wrote:
Personally, think the Emperor is a sneaky SOB who is capable of making contingency plans in his machinations. Not Tzeetchian levels of plotting, but still much better than the average human or even chaos daemon.

His primary plan was the webway. There was no space in the webway plan for religion, that was too easily subverted by Chaos . He worked to stamp it out, and that included slapping down he Word Bearers.

His backup plan seems to have been godhood.He gave Logar the time needed to set the Cult of the Empreror in motion before trying to bring him into line with the Imperial Creed. Unfortunately, this all went awry when he lost fir Logar and the World Bearers, then Horus and the other traitor legions to Chaos. He won the Heresy, but a a cost probably higher than her foresaw.

Still he has either acheived or nearly achieved godhood. The power of the new Imperial Creed is undeniable with the power of the faith of the Sisters of Battle, Celestine and the Living Saints, long with the spectral Legions of the Damned all pointing towards the his ascention.

How do Sisters Acts of Faith actually work? I've never been clear on that. Is it the Emperor actually doing something to help?


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 14:41:25


Post by: Formosa


pm713 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Personally, think the Emperor is a sneaky SOB who is capable of making contingency plans in his machinations. Not Tzeetchian levels of plotting, but still much better than the average human or even chaos daemon.

His primary plan was the webway. There was no space in the webway plan for religion, that was too easily subverted by Chaos . He worked to stamp it out, and that included slapping down he Word Bearers.

His backup plan seems to have been godhood.He gave Logar the time needed to set the Cult of the Empreror in motion before trying to bring him into line with the Imperial Creed. Unfortunately, this all went awry when he lost fir Logar and the World Bearers, then Horus and the other traitor legions to Chaos. He won the Heresy, but a a cost probably higher than her foresaw.

Still he has either acheived or nearly achieved godhood. The power of the new Imperial Creed is undeniable with the power of the faith of the Sisters of Battle, Celestine and the Living Saints, long with the spectral Legions of the Damned all pointing towards the his ascention.

How do Sisters Acts of Faith actually work? I've never been clear on that. Is it the Emperor actually doing something to help?



It’s the warp, given how we know the warp works it’s just thier faith reflecting back at them, they believe strongly enough that it creates a vortex in the warp which in turn empowers them, given time and enough belief then that vortex could achieve sentience just like the chaos gods did, will that new god be the emperor, no, not the emperor we know, not the man, but the belief behind the man, will it think it’s the emperor? Likely yes, but again it won’t be the emperor, just a mash of all the beliefs and concepts that the imperium believe about the emperor.



Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 17:36:06


Post by: w1zard


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.

What do you mean by "emperor" demons? This is the first I have ever heard of this.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 18:52:14


Post by: =Angel=


 alextroy wrote:
Personally, think the Emperor is a sneaky SOB who is capable of making contingency plans in his machinations. Not Tzeetchian levels of plotting, but still much better than the average human or even chaos daemon.

His primary plan was the webway. There was no space in the webway plan for religion, that was too easily subverted by Chaos . He worked to stamp it out, and that included slapping down he Word Bearers.

His backup plan seems to have been godhood.He gave Logar the time needed to set the Cult of the Empreror in motion before trying to bring him into line with the Imperial Creed. Unfortunately, this all went awry when he lost fir Logar and the World Bearers, then Horus and the other traitor legions to Chaos. He won the Heresy, but a a cost probably higher than her foresaw.

Still he has either acheived or nearly achieved godhood. The power of the new Imperial Creed is undeniable with the power of the faith of the Sisters of Battle, Celestine and the Living Saints, long with the spectral Legions of the Damned all pointing towards the his ascention.


I think MLK secretly wanted legal discrimination by race, and segregationist efforts to thrive. He would be thrilled that his secret plans have come to fruition in the modern left.

The Emperor did not want to be worshipped. It's what he consistently said to everyone around. He stamped out faiths and replaced them with secular truths.

Speculation that he secretly wanted all the power of a warp god is an attempt to portray him as more of a monster than he is. It ignores the overarching narrative of his failure and the ironic draconian nightmare theocracy that the Imperium became. It ignores his stated intentions to turn the rule over to mankind once the crusade had achieved his aims and the webway was go.

It is a valid inuniverse speculation for chaos marines etc. It is not for readers- that ambiguity does not exist, for better or worse.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 19:26:38


Post by: Formosa


w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.

What do you mean by "emperor" demons? This is the first I have ever heard of this.


Think he is talking about talon of horus?

Hopefully he is not talking about Master of Mankind.


As a side note Guilliman has seen the acts of faith and Legion of the Damned, he hasnt got a clue what they are and uses the theoretical/practical to reason if the Emperor is actually a god... he isnt, guilliman knows this, but he still goes through his tried and tested process.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/01 19:52:16


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Formosa wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
There is an even stronger point towards his rapid rise to godhood. In the Abaddon book they literaly talk about part of the Eye of Terror they can't go because it basically has Emperor daemons attacking them. And this is a few centuries after the HH, before Abaddon becomes the new hotness.

What do you mean by "emperor" demons? This is the first I have ever heard of this.


Think he is talking about talon of horus?

Hopefully he is not talking about Master of Mankind.


As a side note Guilliman has seen the acts of faith and Legion of the Damned, he hasnt got a clue what they are and uses the theoretical/practical to reason if the Emperor is actually a god... he isnt, guilliman knows this, but he still goes through his tried and tested process.

Yeah Talon of Horus, they call it the Firetide in the book. Its where the Astronomicon hits the Eye of Terror. It doesn't happen by concious choice though. Its described as "psychic energy, crashing together in volatile torment." It continues "Most of the Radiant Worlds are uninhabitable, lost in the lethal crash of conflicting psychic energies. Armies of fire angels and flame-wrought projections wage war against everything in their path." They find a creature appeared on board their ship that is a manifestatation of the Astronomicon/Emperor as well.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/02 00:51:00


Post by: w1zard


Wow. I am actually genuinely curious... Would the emperor become a chaos god if he died? With the combined weight of all of the souls of every soldier who has ever died in his name pushing him to it I can see it. Would he have daemonic servants? What would be his portfolios? Would humanity become a chaos worshiping species at that point?

Or would the emperor rather have the necron's plan succeed have realspace separated from the warp permanently?


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/02 05:50:40


Post by: Grimskul


w1zard wrote:
Wow. I am actually genuinely curious... Would the emperor become a chaos god if he died? With the combined weight of all of the souls of every soldier who has ever died in his name pushing him to it I can see it. Would he have daemonic servants? What would be his portfolios? Would humanity become a chaos worshiping species at that point?

Or would the emperor rather have the necron's plan succeed have realspace separated from the warp permanently?


If he did transcend to a purely warp based being he wouldn't become a chaos god, rather he'd become a warp entity of Order for humanity, closer along the lines of Gork and Mork for the Orks, or Asuryan for the Eldar before he got nommed. He already has "daemonic servants" in some fashion, with Living Saints like Saint Celestine being effectively his equivalent of a daemon prince and the Legion of the Damned as his regular daemons.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/02 06:44:59


Post by: GrapeApe


I'm surprised no one here has made a concerted reference to the fact that GW has over time changed what the -character- of the Emperor should be to fit the needs of the setting they wish to portray.

We must remember that the whole concept of having an Emperor in 40K itself was a nod to Leo II Atreides from the Dune Series (specifically God Emperorf Dune).

As to the character of the Emperor, that has undergone so many permutations at this point in time.

The latest incarnation (and the resulting tweaks) seems to have been GW's attempt to ride the pop culture wave of New Atheism before the movement got squashed by Social Justice politics.
When that Juice wasn't selling anymore, we've moved back into the "mysterious plans" Emperor, which tends to be the default until another writing team has an idea of what to do with Old Emps.

Regarding the Specific Issue of the Cult Mechanicus

I'm a little surprised no on brought up the evidence afforded to us by Mechanicum from the HH series.

Without bluntly beating us over the head with it, i think the novel did a very good job on showing us that the Emperor is indeed the Omnissiah......if only because he may have actually inserted that belief into the early unformed theology of the Mechanicus.

Muse for the second over the fact that the Emperor's first arrival on Mars literally fulfills Prophecies about the Omnissiah written down centuries ago. The Gold Ship, his Bling Bling, the Rain Storm, the Healing of a Machine ( a power he may have lifted from the Void Dragon)......

Combine that with the strong implication that he stuck the Dragon of Mars (Shard of the Void Dragon) into Mars to begin with....and you kind of see how Emps mind works.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When people evaluate the Emperor's character, i often see people asking why he doesn't stick to his "professed beliefs."

Aside from the obvious reason (GW deciding to initiate a story), i think the reason we can draw so many contradictory images of the Emperor is because ultimately he's a pragmatist that desires maximum freedom in meeting his objectives.

In other words...... he's a Hypocrite....... like every other dictatorial leader the world has ever had....


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/02 09:42:24


Post by: w1zard


GrapeApe wrote:

Combine that with the strong implication that he stuck the Dragon of Mars (Shard of the Void Dragon) into Mars to begin with....and you kind of see how Emps mind works.

Not a shard I think. The entire unified C'Tan. The void dragon was one of the lucky ones that escaped the necrontyr purges and is thus still a whole being IRC.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 07:15:23


Post by: tneva82


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.


Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 07:25:54


Post by: Disciple of Fate


tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.


Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 07:29:00


Post by: tneva82


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.


Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?


Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 07:31:12


Post by: Disciple of Fate


tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.


Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?


Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 12:18:49


Post by: =Angel=


 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.


This (Emphasis added.)

'The emperor was playing 4d chess to make his sons rebel, thus creating the ruined future and his godhood' makes no sense when he could have easily started the Temple of the Savior Emperor on day one and enforced his theocracy with 20 Space Marine legions.

Oh you follow the teachings of Buddhommed, prophet of Nirvallah eh? Can he appear right now and throw fireballs from his flaming sword? Can he call down pillars of flame from orbiting starboats? Can he cause armoured giants to appear in your fanes and burn them to cinders?


Everyone was eager and willing to worship Emps, so much so he had to slap Lorgar's work into the dust to try and stop it.



Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 12:40:04


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.


Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?


Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.


This isn't true at all, Erebus did most of the work to get the HH going, Lorgar was busy looking for answers and having fun in the eye of terror. It was Erebus that actually spread the lodges and got Horus to turn. Until Lorgar surpassed Erebus which happened way into the HH, he was irrelevant, Erebus was the director of the HH not Lorgar.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 13:36:06


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.


Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?


Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.


This isn't true at all, Erebus did most of the work to get the HH going, Lorgar was busy looking for answers and having fun in the eye of terror. It was Erebus that actually spread the lodges and got Horus to turn. Until Lorgar surpassed Erebus which happened way into the HH, he was irrelevant, Erebus was the director of the HH not Lorgar.

Actually Erebus first convinced Lorgar to go into the Eye and he went in there years before Erebus started spreading the lodges. If Lorgar wouldn't have lost his faith and Kor and Erebus didn't get their claws in him its doubtful if it would have gotten this far. Note that I never said the HH would have been avoided, I said half of its insanity would have been avoided.

Take into account that it was Lorgar, not Erebus who cut off the Ultramarines, prevented Angron from dying and had one of the larger and more effective legions to bring over to the side of Horus. Erebus never took any action to spread Chaos either inside the WB or to other legions before Lorgar fell from grace. Lorgar's fall was the event that allowed for Erebus and Kor to start corrupting the WB and the other legions. Lorgar's humiliation by the Emperor is the lynchpin for the HH in the form it is now, take out Lorgar and any civil war would have looked a lot different. As most of the traitor legions required little work to fall compared to the Luna Wolves, it would have still happened, but Erebus was let off the chain by Lorgar.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 13:56:43


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The HH books mess up this aspect terribly. The Chaos Gods try to convince the traitor Primarchs that the Emperor is a militant atheist so that in the end he can institute himself as the sole god. But if that's the case then why did he censor the WB for their worship of him? It makes no sense that he went that far and had Monarchia destroyed if they were just being too slow in his mind. He could have approached it in so many different ways if his end goal was to really become a god.


Except that antagonizes them thus putting them toward rebellion.

What exactly antagonized them? And them being the WB?


Having their biggest creation destroyed? I would imagine that pissed off WB quite a bit.

Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.


This isn't true at all, Erebus did most of the work to get the HH going, Lorgar was busy looking for answers and having fun in the eye of terror. It was Erebus that actually spread the lodges and got Horus to turn. Until Lorgar surpassed Erebus which happened way into the HH, he was irrelevant, Erebus was the director of the HH not Lorgar.

Actually Erebus first convinced Lorgar to go into the Eye and he went in there years before Erebus started spreading the lodges. If Lorgar wouldn't have lost his faith and Kor and Erebus didn't get their claws in him its doubtful if it would have gotten this far. Note that I never said the HH would have been avoided, I said half of its insanity would have been avoided.

Take into account that it was Lorgar, not Erebus who cut off the Ultramarines, prevented Angron from dying and had one of the larger and more effective legions to bring over to the side of Horus. Erebus never took any action to spread Chaos either inside the WB or to other legions before Lorgar fell from grace. Lorgar's fall was the event that allowed for Erebus and Kor to start corrupting the WB and the other legions. Lorgar's humiliation by the Emperor is the lynchpin for the HH in the form it is now, take out Lorgar and any civil war would have looked a lot different. As most of the traitor legions required little work to fall compared to the Luna Wolves, it would have still happened, but Erebus was let off the chain by Lorgar.


No he didn't, the lodges existed when Lorgar still believed the Emperor was a god. Cutting of the Ultramrines had nothing to do with the HH, the HH had started before that. Again Lorgar saved Angron way after the HH had started.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 14:08:03


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Yes, the Luna Wolves lodge existed before the fall to Chaos of Lorgar, but Erebus had nothing to do with it. Only after Lorgar fell to Chaos did Erebus start using the lodge to turn the Luna Wolves and spread them to other legions. Erebus wasn't attached to the Luna Wolves when the lodge started amd was only detached after the fall to Chaos.

Wait, you think the two biggest legions going at it in Ultramar had nothing to do with the HH? Or Lorgar saving Angron? Both had profound effects on the HH. If Lorgar hadn't been punished by the Emperor and set in motion the current HH track its doubtful the Emperor would have even 'died'.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 14:21:44


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, the Luna Wolves lodge existed before the fall to Chaos of Lorgar, but Erebus had nothing to do with it. Only after Lorgar fell to Chaos did Erebus start using the lodge to turn the Luna Wolves and spread them to other legions. Erebus wasn't attached to the Luna Wolves when the lodge started amd was only detached after the fall to Chaos.

Wait, you think the two biggest legions going at it in Ultramar had nothing to do with the HH? Or Lorgar saving Angron? Both had profound effects on the HH. If Lorgar hadn't been punished by the Emperor and set in motion the current HH track its doubtful the Emperor would have even 'died'.


Wrong: 'What was Ignace talking about, Ezekyle? Was it a lodge medal that passed between you and Erebus?'
Abaddon looked directly at Loken and said, 'I can't say.'
'Then it was.'
'I. Can't. Say.'
'Damn you, Ezekyle. Secrets and hidden things, my brother, I can't abide them. This is exactly why I can't return to the warrior lodge.
Aximand and Torgaddon have both asked me to, but I won't, not now. Tell me: is Erebus part of the lodge now? Was he always part of
it or did you bring him in on the journey here?'
'You heard Serghar's words at the meeting. You know I can't speak of what happens within the circles of the lodge.'
Loken stepped in close to Abaddon, chest plate to chest plate, and said, 'You'll tell me now, Ezekyle. I smell something rank here and I
swear if you lie to me I'll know.'
'You think to bully me, little one?' laughed Abaddon, but Loken saw the lie in his bluster.
'Yes, Ezekyle, I do. Now tell me.'
Abaddon's eyes flickered to the entrance of the yurt.
'Very well,' he said. 'I'll tell you, but what I say goes no further.'
Loken nodded and Abaddon said, 'We did not bring Erebus into the lodge.'
'No?' asked Loken, his disbelief plain.
'No,' repeated Abaddon. 'It was Erebus who brought us in.'
Erebus, brother Astartes, First Chaplain of the Word Bearers…

The HH would have happened without Lorgar at all.


Ultramar had something to do with the HH but the point I am making is that the HH had started 'before' Lorgar decided to go to Ultramar, same with Angron. You need to read more carefully.



Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 14:42:27


Post by: Disciple of Fate


... Read what I said. The HH would have taken a completely different form if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not that it would have been avoided. Erebus was detached to the Luna Wolves by Lorgar with the express purpose of turning them. The lodges were created when Davin was first brought into compliance, over a decade before Monarchia. Erebus used the existing structure to start a recruting drive, which is shown in the same book you took that quote from, Abbadon and little Horus being part of said drive.

Of course the HH started before Lorgar went to Ultramar. But Lorgar allowed Erebus to be detached to the Luna Wolves to start the HH. But the book First Heretic makes clear that Erebus is just one of many WB spreading Chaos on Imperial planets and in other legions. My point is that without Lorgar falling to Chaos, Erebus would have been a lone agent, with nowhere near the dramatic consequences the HH had.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 14:55:59


Post by: Maniac_nmt


 =Angel= wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:


Yeah, which is why I don't think the Emperor really had a long term plan to become a god based on how he treated the WB and his treatment of them ending up in his own physical death. If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided. Which is why I think the Chaos Gods convincing Horus the Emperor is the bad guy is terribly written given the context of what Horus should know, if Lorgar hadn't really been punished and kept converting, the idea that the Emperor was just wanting to become a god would have been a much stronger argument when the Chaos Gods tried to convince Horus.


This (Emphasis added.)

'The emperor was playing 4d chess to make his sons rebel, thus creating the ruined future and his godhood' makes no sense when he could have easily started the Temple of the Savior Emperor on day one and enforced his theocracy with 20 Space Marine legions.

Oh you follow the teachings of Buddhommed, prophet of Nirvallah eh? Can he appear right now and throw fireballs from his flaming sword? Can he call down pillars of flame from orbiting starboats? Can he cause armoured giants to appear in your fanes and burn them to cinders?


Everyone was eager and willing to worship Emps, so much so he had to slap Lorgar's work into the dust to try and stop it.



Some aspect of him must have wanted 'godhood' as individuals appear to manifest his power early on in the heresy books, people who want to revere him as a god and those who are initially semi agnostic (I cannot remember her name, but there is the 'rememberer' who goes catatonic and later busts out the emperor during a couple of actions while traversing the warp, drawing more people in to worship him).

It might not have been his prime motivation, but it must have existed at some level.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 15:01:48


Post by: Disciple of Fate


I believe the person you mention is Euphrati Keeler(spelling?). It might be a side effect of the Emperor's presence in the Warp. The Astronomicon is the Emperor's power in the Warp, people or psykers depending on what exactly Keeler is might be able to draw power from there through their belief in the Emperor? Its a vague story, but as the Emperor is anathema to the Warp, drawing on his power being projected into the Warp might help against Warp entities. I don't think it points to him wanting to be a god as much as it points to him having a significant presence in the Warp.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 15:04:05


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
... Read what I said. The HH would have taken a completely different form if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not that it would have been avoided. Erebus was detached to the Luna Wolves by Lorgar with the express purpose of turning them. The lodges were created when Davin was first brought into compliance, over a decade before Monarchia. Erebus used the existing structure to start a recruting drive, which is shown in the same book you took that quote from, Abbadon and little Horus being part of said drive.

Of course the HH started before Lorgar went to Ultramar. But Lorgar allowed Erebus to be detached to the Luna Wolves to start the HH. But the book First Heretic makes clear that Erebus is just one of many WB spreading Chaos on Imperial planets and in other legions. My point is that without Lorgar falling to Chaos, Erebus would have been a lone agent, with nowhere near the dramatic consequences the HH had.


We are talking about whether the HH happened because of Lorgar or Erebus. You said take into account about Ultramar and Angron but they are irrelevant to how the HH started.

Wrong again, it was Horus' idead to spread the lodges:
No,' agreed Horus. 'He will not.'
'What of the other Legions?' asked Regulus. 'They will not sit idly by while we make war upon the Emperor. How do you propose to
negate them?'
'A worthy question, adept,' said Horus, circling the table to stand at his shoulder. 'We are not without allies ourselves. Fulgrim is with
us, and he now goes to win Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands over to our cause. Lorgar too understands the necessity of what must be
done, and both bring the full might of their Legions to my banner.'
'That still leaves many others,' pointed out Erebus.
'Indeed it does, chaplain, but with your help, others may join us. Under the guise of the Chaplain Edict, we will send emissaries to
each of the Legions to promulgate the formation of warrior lodges within them. From small beginnings we may win many to our
cause.'
'That will take time,' said Erebus.
Horus nodded. 'It will, yes, but it will be worth it in the long term. In the meantime, I have despatched mobilisation orders to those
Legions I do not believe we can sway. The Ultramarines will muster at Calth to be attacked by Kor Phaeron of the Word Bearers, and
the Blood Angels have been sent to the Signus Cluster, where Sanguinius shall be mired in blood. Then we make a swift, decisive
stroke on Terra.'
'That still leaves other Legions,' said Regulus.
'I know,' answered Horus, 'but I have a plan that will remove them as a threat to us once and for all. I will lure them into a trap from
which none will escape. I will set the Emperor's Imperium ablaze and from the ashes will arise a new Master of Mankind!'
'And where will you set this trap?' asked Maloghurst.
'A place not far from here,' said Horus. 'The Istvaan system.'

Lorgar didn't know about the lodges when Erebus first made them, he hadn't turned by then. Wrong the lodges were created on Davin they were ancient, Erebus used them to be created on the Word Beares and The Sons of Horus fleets, it had nothing to do with Lorgar, the Astartes Lodges were created by Erebus, they didn't exist within the Legions before Erebus created them. Its not like they were there and Erebus just used them, like you are trying to make up just so that you aren't wrong.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 15:27:49


Post by: Disciple of Fate


No we aren't, you said what I wrote wasn't true at all in reply to me commenting this:

If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided.


I never talked about the HH happening because of only Lorgar or Erebus. I talked about avoiding half the HH insanity if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not avoiding it outright. You complain I don't read while making up things I never said about the HH...

And from your quote, the Chaplain Edict was the plan of both Lorgar and Erebus, not just Erebus (they talk about years spend in other legions as chaplains by decree of Lorgar in the First Heretic, which took place before those events quoted above, that quote is from right before the HH (as evidenced by the Signus Cluster comment), the WB have been working on spreading Chaos for 40 years untill the HH, the WB were already doing it before Horus got the 'idea'). Again, the lodges existed before Erebus openly turned to Chaos in the WB. The Luna Wolves coopted the lodges from those on Davin, the Sons of Horus name comes decades later, you're getting your timelines mixed up were talking about a gap of 10-20 years between the start of the lodges (60 years before the HH) and Erebus being detached to the Luna Wolves (after Monarchia, between 50 and 40 years before the HH).The lodges were founded before Monarchia happened, when Erebus still was with the WB legion. They had a minimal presence before Erebus started using them though.

I mean the HH series is terribly written in places and that quote is one of the examples. Horus already talks about Istvaan and Signus, the start of the HH, yet somehow they still have time to start lodges and do what took years to achieve in the Luna Wolves? So Horus in that quote has started the HH by sending the BA to Signus, yet somehow from First Heretic the WB chaplains still have years to convert the others and purge their legions? It makes zero sense timewise. First Heretic makes clear Horus is being played into thinking these are his ideas, fixing some of the issues that the first books invented.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 17:34:35


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No we aren't, you said what I wrote wasn't true at all in reply to me commenting this:

If he had just let Lorgar be Lorgar, half of the HH insanity would have been avoided.


I never talked about the HH happening because of only Lorgar or Erebus. I talked about avoiding half the HH insanity if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not avoiding it outright. You complain I don't read while making up things I never said about the HH...

And from your quote, the Chaplain Edict was the plan of both Lorgar and Erebus, not just Erebus (they talk about years spend in other legions as chaplains by decree of Lorgar in the First Heretic, which took place before those events quoted above, that quote is from right before the HH (as evidenced by the Signus Cluster comment), the WB have been working on spreading Chaos for 40 years untill the HH, the WB were already doing it before Horus got the 'idea'). Again, the lodges existed before Erebus openly turned to Chaos in the WB. The Luna Wolves coopted the lodges from those on Davin, the Sons of Horus name comes decades later, you're getting your timelines mixed up were talking about a gap of 10-20 years between the start of the lodges (60 years before the HH) and Erebus being detached to the Luna Wolves (after Monarchia, between 50 and 40 years before the HH).The lodges were founded before Monarchia happened, when Erebus still was with the WB legion. They had a minimal presence before Erebus started using them though.

I mean the HH series is terribly written in places and that quote is one of the examples. Horus already talks about Istvaan and Signus, the start of the HH, yet somehow they still have time to start lodges and do what took years to achieve in the Luna Wolves? So Horus in that quote has started the HH by sending the BA to Signus, yet somehow from First Heretic the WB chaplains still have years to convert the others and purge their legions? It makes zero sense timewise. First Heretic makes clear Horus is being played into thinking these are his ideas, fixing some of the issues that the first books invented.


There is no such thing as the Chaplain edict, you are just making things up again. Erebus was spreading the lodges before Lorgar turned. The lodges did not exist in the Astartes before Erebus made them. You are just making up those timelines this is ridiculous. Hastur Sejanus was in the lodge, Garviel Loken was asked to take his place after he died, he died 1 year after the Ullanor campaign, well before Lorgar turned. Stop lying and making things up or I won't comment, you have proven yourself to be dishonest, everything you have said is completely wrong, you are just making things up. Sure everyone gets a few things wrong, but every time I post proof you just lie straight away again and again. Yeah Horus had planed Istavaan well before it happened thats unbelievable. He planned it before the lodges spread to all the other legions because of Loken.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 19:19:30


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

There is no such thing as the Chaplain edict, you are just making things up again.

Literally your previous post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

'That still leaves many others,' pointed out Erebus.
'Indeed it does, chaplain, but with your help, others may join us. Under the guise of the Chaplain Edict, we will send emissaries to
each of the Legions to promulgate the formation of warrior lodges within them. From small beginnings we may win many to our
cause.'
'That will take time,' said Erebus.

I mean, I know you don't read what I write, but apparently that's just what you do in general...


Just for the people who actually read this. Ullanor was after Monarchia, Lorgar was already turned by then. The lodges were older than Erebus' attaching to the Luna Wolves and this was in accordance to the plans Lorgar made with Erebus. In the book quote Delvarus uses it directly references Horus having already dispatched the BA to the Signus Cluster which together with Calth and Istvaan is the start of the HH. Somehow while this is already happening Horus still has the time to turn the other legions with lodges, even though he already planned the Drop Site Massacre, its bad writing with no sense of timescale.

Spoiler:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
... Read what I said. The HH would have taken a completely different form if Lorgar hadn't fallen, not that it would have been avoided. Erebus was detached to the Luna Wolves by Lorgar with the express purpose of turning them. The lodges were created when Davin was first brought into compliance, over a decade before Monarchia. Erebus used the existing structure to start a recruting drive, which is shown in the same book you took that quote from, Abbadon and little Horus being part of said drive.

Of course the HH started before Lorgar went to Ultramar. But Lorgar allowed Erebus to be detached to the Luna Wolves to start the HH. But the book First Heretic makes clear that Erebus is just one of many WB spreading Chaos on Imperial planets and in other legions. My point is that without Lorgar falling to Chaos, Erebus would have been a lone agent, with nowhere near the dramatic consequences the HH had.


We are talking about whether the HH happened because of Lorgar or Erebus. You said take into account about Ultramar and Angron but they are irrelevant to how the HH started.

Wrong again, it was Horus' idead to spread the lodges:
No,' agreed Horus. 'He will not.'
'What of the other Legions?' asked Regulus. 'They will not sit idly by while we make war upon the Emperor. How do you propose to
negate them?'
'A worthy question, adept,' said Horus, circling the table to stand at his shoulder. 'We are not without allies ourselves. Fulgrim is with
us, and he now goes to win Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands over to our cause. Lorgar too understands the necessity of what must be
done, and both bring the full might of their Legions to my banner.'
'That still leaves many others,' pointed out Erebus.
'Indeed it does, chaplain, but with your help, others may join us. Under the guise of the Chaplain Edict, we will send emissaries to
each of the Legions to promulgate the formation of warrior lodges within them. From small beginnings we may win many to our
cause.'
'That will take time,' said Erebus.
Horus nodded. 'It will, yes, but it will be worth it in the long term. In the meantime, I have despatched mobilisation orders to those
Legions I do not believe we can sway. The Ultramarines will muster at Calth to be attacked by Kor Phaeron of the Word Bearers, and
the Blood Angels have been sent to the Signus Cluster, where Sanguinius shall be mired in blood. Then we make a swift, decisive
stroke on Terra.'
'That still leaves other Legions,' said Regulus.
'I know,' answered Horus, 'but I have a plan that will remove them as a threat to us once and for all. I will lure them into a trap from
which none will escape. I will set the Emperor's Imperium ablaze and from the ashes will arise a new Master of Mankind!'
'And where will you set this trap?' asked Maloghurst.
'A place not far from here,' said Horus. 'The Istvaan system.'

Lorgar didn't know about the lodges when Erebus first made them, he hadn't turned by then. Wrong the lodges were created on Davin they were ancient, Erebus used them to be created on the Word Beares and The Sons of Horus fleets, it had nothing to do with Lorgar, the Astartes Lodges were created by Erebus, they didn't exist within the Legions before Erebus created them. Its not like they were there and Erebus just used them, like you are trying to make up just so that you aren't wrong.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 19:26:47


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

There is no such thing as the Chaplain edict, you are just making things up again.

Literally your previous post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

'That still leaves many others,' pointed out Erebus.
'Indeed it does, chaplain, but with your help, others may join us. Under the guise of the Chaplain Edict, we will send emissaries to
each of the Legions to promulgate the formation of warrior lodges within them. From small beginnings we may win many to our
cause.'
'That will take time,' said Erebus.

I mean, I know you don't read what I write, but apparently that's just what you do in general...


That's the Chaplain edict, for all chaplains. It isn't a particular edict 'plan' that Lorgar made and it isn't mentioned in the first heretic. Plus I wouldn't be saying facepalm when you have gotten literally everything wrong and have resorted in just making stuff up lol




Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 19:31:24


Post by: Disciple of Fate


So there is no such thing as the Chaplain Edict except for the Chaplain Edict?

The Chaplain Edict came out of the Council of Nikea inspired by Lorgar, who as the only legion to use chaplains up to that point spread them out to the other legions to attempt to influence them. This is discussed in First Heretic.

Also a facepalm is pretty much in order when you make directly contradictory statements within two posts and keep complaining the other person doesn't read.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 19:35:29


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
So there is no such thing as the Chaplain Edict except for the Chaplain Edict?

The Chaplain Edict came out of the Council of Nikea inspired by Lorgar, who as the only legion to use chaplains up to that point spread them out to the other legions to attempt to influence them. This is discussed in First Heretic.

Also a facepalm is pretty much in order when you make directly contradictory statements within two posts and keep complaining the other person doesn't read.


So what, it does nothing for your argument. You still got the fact that its in the first heretic wrong, even when you are right you are wrong lol A facepalm is when you do something stupid, I got something wrong, well apart from that you've gotten everything wrong so you do the math.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 19:38:25


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 19:41:22


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.


We aren't talking about the emperor intended to be a god, we are talking about Lorgar and Erebus. When it comes to lore you are always wrong, our debates can be seen by all, you refuse to concede anything even when I use proof in every comment. Everything I post is backed up by quotes and you still try to lie and make up stuff, everyone reading this can see that you do that lol You need to convince yourself because facts don't seem to do it for you. You actually thought that 'warmaster' was a chaos title given to Horus and that he didn't become warmaster until false gods.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 20:03:41


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Sorry for not posting quotes, I wasn't home so I couldn't access my books. Here you go, from First Heretic:

Page 362-363
"What are these?"
"Symbols of the Iron Warrior circles. They do not name them "lodges", as the Sons of Horus do."
Argel Tal removed his helm with a click-hiss of air pressure. As always, the Chaplain's festooned chamber had the lingering twin-scent of dried spices and old incense.
"You were gone much longer than expected," he said. "Problems?"
"Nothing worth doing is ever easy."
Argel Tal flexed his hands, closing and opening them from fists. They ached. They'd ached for days now.
"That doesn't answer my question."
"There were no problems," Said Xaphen. "I stayed longer because it seemed prudent. Their circles are large, taking up the overwhelming majority of the Legion, but it was a critical phase. I was not the only Chaplain there."
Argel Tal raised an eyebrow,not realising he was mimicking Cyrene's bemused smirk out of habit. "Oh?"
"Maloq Kartho was there to deal with another of the warrior circles, and I was treated to several of his sermons. The air fairly reeked of brimstone when he spoke. Var Vales was there, as well. Both were with the Iron Warriors after long tenures with the World Eaters."
Xaphen sighed - a satisfied sound to match the brightness in his eyes. "The web is wide, brother Lorgar's conspiracy spans the stars themselves. At last count, there are over two hundred of our Chaplains seconded to other fleets. Erebus now stands at the Warmaster's side{note that the italics are in the book here} Can you give that countenance? Horus himself, heeding Erebus's words."
Xaphen laughed as he trailed off. "It begins brother."

This directly states that Lorgar had been turned and had set in motion his plans to convert other legions before Erebus was attached to Horus. It also directly contradicts that the spreading of lodges was the idea of Horus.

Page 341-342
Lorgar: "Take the truth to Erebus and Kor Phaeron. While I am gone, they will be the Legion's lords, and they will orchestrate the spread of the true faith in the shadows of my father's empire. I shall return to them soon."


Page 367
"Lorgar has worked half a century to spread the truth to those ears worthy of hearing it. Every Legion we need will be at our side."

They do call Istvaan the work of Erebus though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.


We aren't talking about the emperor intended to be a god, we are talking about Lorgar and Erebus. When it comes to lore you are always wrong, our debates can be seen by all, you refuse to concede anything even when I use proof in every comment. Everything I post is backed up by quotes and you still try to lie and make up stuff, everyone reading this can see that you do that lol You need to convince yourself because facts don't seem to do it for you. You actually thought that 'warmaster' was a chaos title given to Horus and that he didn't become warmaster until false gods.

I never said anything about Horus's title as Warmaster, have any proof for that lie?


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 20:25:23


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sorry for not posting quotes, I wasn't home so I couldn't access my books. Here you go, from First Heretic:

Page 362-363
"What are these?"
"Symbols of the Iron Warrior circles. They do not name them "lodges", as the Sons of Horus do."
Argel Tal removed his helm with a click-hiss of air pressure. As always, the Chaplain's festooned chamber had the lingering twin-scent of dried spices and old incense.
"You were gone much longer than expected," he said. "Problems?"
"Nothing worth doing is ever easy."
Argel Tal flexed his hands, closing and opening them from fists. They ached. They'd ached for days now.
"That doesn't answer my question."
"There were no problems," Said Xaphen. "I stayed longer because it seemed prudent. Their circles are large, taking up the overwhelming majority of the Legion, but it was a critical phase. I was not the only Chaplain there."
Argel Tal raised an eyebrow,not realising he was mimicking Cyrene's bemused smirk out of habit. "Oh?"
"Maloq Kartho was there to deal with another of the warrior circles, and I was treated to several of his sermons. The air fairly reeked of brimstone when he spoke. Var Vales was there, as well. Both were with the Iron Warriors after long tenures with the World Eaters."
Xaphen sighed - a satisfied sound to match the brightness in his eyes. "The web is wide, brother Lorgar's conspiracy spans the stars themselves. At last count, there are over two hundred of our Chaplains seconded to other fleets. Erebus now stands at the Warmaster's side{note that the italics are in the book here} Can you give that countenance? Horus himself, heeding Erebus's words."
Xaphen laughed as he trailed off. "It begins brother."

This directly states that Lorgar had been turned and had set in motion his plans to convert other legions before Erebus was attached to Horus. It also directly contradicts that the spreading of lodges was the idea of Horus.

Page 341-342
Lorgar: "Take the truth to Erebus and Kor Phaeron. While I am gone, they will be the Legion's lords, and they will orchestrate the spread of the true faith in the shadows of my father's empire. I shall return to them soon."


Page 367
"Lorgar has worked half a century to spread the truth to those ears worthy of hearing it. Every Legion we need will be at our side."

They do call Istvaan the work of Erebus though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.


We aren't talking about the emperor intended to be a god, we are talking about Lorgar and Erebus. When it comes to lore you are always wrong, our debates can be seen by all, you refuse to concede anything even when I use proof in every comment. Everything I post is backed up by quotes and you still try to lie and make up stuff, everyone reading this can see that you do that lol You need to convince yourself because facts don't seem to do it for you. You actually thought that 'warmaster' was a chaos title given to Horus and that he didn't become warmaster until false gods.

I never said anything about Horus's title as Warmaster, have any proof for that lie?


No it doesn't, all he said was Lorgar's conspiracy is wide, he didn't say the lodges was his idea. Nor does it dispute that it was Horus' idea. Just tried to find that qoute actually, you didn't say that, it was someone else sorry bout that.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 20:32:17


Post by: Disciple of Fate


If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 20:39:04


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.



Well I proved that wrong, Erebus started spreading the lodges way way before Lorgars conversion. Horus did come up with the idea, I've proven that with a quote from false gods, to disprove that you have to provide evidence for it, how can you say he did't when its in the novel. Horus planned to spread the lodges, Erebus just needed the lodges on the Warmasters fleet to get him to Davin and convince everyone to send him to the Davinite lodge to turn him to chaos. You are arguing on the basis of what you 'think' happened, or you are just lying. I said It was someone else who posted that quote.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 20:46:42


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.



Well I proved that wrong, Erebus started spreading the lodges way way before Lorgars conversion. Horus did come up with the idea, I've proven that with a quote from false gods, to disprove that you have to provide evidence for it, how can you say he did't when its in the novel. Horus planned to spread the lodges, Erebus just needed the lodges on the Warmasters fleet to get him to Davin and convince everyone to send him to the Davinite lodge to turn him to chaos. You are arguing on the basis of what you 'think' happened, or you are just lying. I said It was someone else who posted that quote.

How have you proved me wrong, you haven't provided any quote that shows Erebus started spreading the lodges before Lorgar's conversion. My quotes from First Heretic directly contradicts your statement:

Page 341-342
Lorgar: "Take the truth to Erebus and Kor Phaeron. While I am gone, they will be the Legion's lords, and they will orchestrate the spread of the true faith in the shadows of my father's empire. I shall return to them soon."

You do realize False Gods takes place long after Lorgar fell to Chaos right? The books describe the years up to the HH, First Heretic the decades. Horus only wants to spread the lodges after he falls to Chaos.

Also Erebus didn't need the lodges to get Horus to Davin. Erebus orchestrated that Horus's steward on Davin's moon turned to Chaos/traitor (because such an insult would force Horus to go back), forcing Horus to return to the scene of his previous compliance where Erebus could ensure Horus got stabbed by the magic dagger he stole and taken to the Davinite lodges. Erebus just used the LW lodges to gain trust to force this outcome and make people like Abaddon and little Horus more receptive towards his solution, they don't openly spread Chaos yet (most traitor marines are pretty disgusted by the idea of Chaos and Horus misunderstands it as a tool, the WB aren't telling the full story beyond preaching against the Emperor).

As for the Warmaster comment, didn't see your edit, sorry, comment withdrawn.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 20:54:54


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.


I only added commas to the edit, reading back i realised that you might have misunderstood without them.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:02:57


Post by: Disciple of Fate


No, Abaddon told Loken that Erebus invited him in, not that Erebus was the founder. Nowhere does it explicitly state that Erebus was there when the lodges were founded in the LW 60 years before the HH. He might have been there, but nothing so far points to the fact that he was.

Also Loken took Sejanus's place in the Mournival, nowhere is it stated that Sejanus was a member of the lodge iirc.

Again, by the time of the Ullanor Crusade, Lorgar had already been turned into a traitor. He was censured by the Emperor decades before on Monarchia and after Ullanor the Emperor could not have censored Lorgar because he left for Terra. Your timeline is mixed up.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:03:33


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.



I did prove that wrong, Abaddon said that Erebus created the lodge. Hadtur Sejanus was in the lodge and he died a year after the Ullanor crusade which was way way before Lorgar turned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, Abaddon told Loken that Erebus invited him in, not that Erebus was the founder. Nowhere does it explicitly state that Erebus was there when the lodges were founded in the LW 60 years before the HH. He might have been there, but nothing so far points to the fact that he was.

Also Loken took Sejanus's place in the Mournival, nowhere is it stated that Sejanus was a member of the lodge iirc.

Again, by the time of the Ullanor Crusade, Lorgar had already been turned into a traitor. He was censured by the Emperor decades before on Monarchia and after Ullanor the Emperor could not have censored Lorgar because he left for Terra. Your timeline is mixed up.


'What was Ignace talking about, Ezekyle? Was it a lodge medal that passed between you and Erebus?'
Abaddon looked directly at Loken and said, 'I can't say.'
'Then it was.'
'I. Can't. Say.'
'Damn you, Ezekyle. Secrets and hidden things, my brother, I can't abide them. This is exactly why I can't return to the warrior lodge.
Aximand and Torgaddon have both asked me to, but I won't, not now. Tell me: is Erebus part of the lodge now? Was he always part of
it or did you bring him in on the journey here?'
'You heard Serghar's words at the meeting. You know I can't speak of what happens within the circles of the lodge.'
Loken stepped in close to Abaddon, chest plate to chest plate, and said, 'You'll tell me now, Ezekyle. I smell something rank here and I
swear if you lie to me I'll know.'
'You think to bully me, little one?' laughed Abaddon, but Loken saw the lie in his bluster.
'Yes, Ezekyle, I do. Now tell me.'
Abaddon's eyes flickered to the entrance of the yurt.
'Very well,' he said. 'I'll tell you, but what I say goes no further.'
Loken nodded and Abaddon said, 'We did not bring Erebus into the lodge.'
'No?' asked Loken, his disbelief plain.
'No,' repeated Abaddon. 'It was Erebus who brought us in.'
Erebus, brother Astartes, First Chaplain of the Word Bearers…

Erebus brought all of them into the lodge. No wonder you get so much wrong, I give you evidence and still your mind cannot except it and you create your own version.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:10:29


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Reread it, Loken asks if Erebus is now part of the lodge. Abaddon states that Erebus was the one who invited him in, not that he was the creator 60/50 years ago.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:11:21


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Reread it, Loken asks if Erebus is now part of the lodge. Abaddon states that Erebus was the one who invited him in, not that he was the creator 60/50 years ago.


Well obviously he was the creator, if it wasn't him it was Kor Phearan not lorgar as it couldn't have been lorgar.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:15:49


Post by: Disciple of Fate


No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:16:22


Post by: Formosa


Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:17:10


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:27:51


Post by: Ketara


I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/03 21:28:44


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/04 05:58:21


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/04 06:52:18


Post by: Imperial Air Mage V601/20


In the Beast arises series their was a great argument where a Iron Warrior Warsmith argued that it was possible that the both the Imperial Truth and the Imperial Creed were correct, that Lorgar was premature in seeing the Emperor as a God but that he became a God during the Horus Heresy and that the Emperor didn't hate the Chaos gods he only wanted to become one of them.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/04 14:44:31


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Formosa wrote:
Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?


No I've explicitly stated many times that the Davinites created the lodges but Erebus used them and created the Astartes lodges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.


That's not your argument, the whole argument is that you think Lorgar started the HH when in fact it was Erebus and possibly Kor.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/04 15:00:26


Post by: Disciple of Fate


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?


No I've explicitly stated many times that the Davinites created the lodges but Erebus used them and created the Astartes lodges.

There is simply no lore to back this up. All we know about the origin of the lodges of the Luna Wolves is that they copied the structure out of grudging respect after the first compliance of Davin's Moon. Nowhere does it state that Erebus created the Luna Wolves lodges, he wasn't even detached to them when they were founded.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.


That's not your argument, the whole argument is that you think Lorgar started the HH when in fact it was Erebus and possibly Kor.

Listen Delvarus, this whole thing started off with you claiming I said that if Lorgar hadn't fallen the HH could have been avoided, which I hadn't said. Then I provided you the quotes from First Heretic to show you that Lorgar set the events in motion in which Erebus ended up turning Horus. Now that is in no way taking away the agency of Erebus and Erbus certainly might have tried if Lorgar hadn't turned (which is a direct result of the Emperor's censure, making him the original source that set the events of the HH in motion). But the fact of the matter is that Lorgar turning gave Erebus the chance to do what he did. Erebus worked on the details in the Luna Wolves, Lorgar on the bigger picture, its all there in First Heretic.


Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/04 18:09:55


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?


No I've explicitly stated many times that the Davinites created the lodges but Erebus used them and created the Astartes lodges.

There is simply no lore to back this up. All we know about the origin of the lodges of the Luna Wolves is that they copied the structure out of grudging respect after the first compliance of Davin's Moon. Nowhere does it state that Erebus created the Luna Wolves lodges, he wasn't even detached to them when they were founded.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.


That's not your argument, the whole argument is that you think Lorgar started the HH when in fact it was Erebus and possibly Kor.

Listen Delvarus, this whole thing started off with you claiming I said that if Lorgar hadn't fallen the HH could have been avoided, which I hadn't said. Then I provided you the quotes from First Heretic to show you that Lorgar set the events in motion in which Erebus ended up turning Horus. Now that is in no way taking away the agency of Erebus and Erbus certainly might have tried if Lorgar hadn't turned (which is a direct result of the Emperor's censure, making him the original source that set the events of the HH in motion). But the fact of the matter is that Lorgar turning gave Erebus the chance to do what he did. Erebus worked on the details in the Luna Wolves, Lorgar on the bigger picture, its all there in First Heretic.



I said you said that Lorgar started the HH, not that it could have been avoided.

How many times do I have to post this:

'What was Ignace talking about, Ezekyle? Was it a lodge medal that passed between you and Erebus?' Abaddon looked directly at Loken and said, 'I can't say.' 'Then it was.' 'I. Can't. Say.' 'Damn you, Ezekyle. Secrets and hidden things, my brother, I can't abide them. This is exactly why I can't return to the warrior lodge. Aximand and Torgaddon have both asked me to, but I won't, not now. Tell me: is Erebus part of the lodge now? Was he always part of it or did you bring him in on the journey here?' 'You heard Serghar's words at the meeting. You know I can't speak of what happens within the circles of the lodge.' Loken stepped in close to Abaddon, chest plate to chest plate, and said, 'You'll tell me now, Ezekyle. I smell something rank here and I swear if you lie to me I'll know.' 'You think to bully me, little one?' laughed Abaddon, but Loken saw the lie in his bluster. 'Yes, Ezekyle, I do. Now tell me.' Abaddon's eyes flickered to the entrance of the yurt. 'Very well,' he said. 'I'll tell you, but what I say goes no further.' Loken nodded and Abaddon said, 'We did not bring Erebus into the lodge.' 'No?' asked Loken, his disbelief plain. 'No,' repeated Abaddon. 'It was Erebus who brought us in.' Erebus, brother Astartes, First Chaplain of the Word Bearers…

Erebus created the lodge in the Luna Wolves fleet, Hastur Sejanus was in the lodge and he died one year after the Ullanor campaign, way way before Lorgar ever fell to chaos. Trying to dispute this is just getting silly now. No where have you given any evidence to show that the Luna Wolves created the lodge themselves, you can't even suggest that with this ^ quote, plus nowhere in the lore does it say that they did, All that is in the lore is that Abaddon said Erebus created the lodge on the Luna Wolves fleet.

They didn't copy it from Davins moons. Erebus copied it and then created a lodge within the Luna Wolves.

"'They are a feral people, controlled by warrior castes, but then we all know this. Our own quiet order bears the hallmarks of their
warrior lodges in its structure and practices. Each of their lodges venerates one of the autochthonic predators of their lands, and this is
where our order differs. In my time on Davin during its compliance, I studied the lodges and their ways in search of corruption or
religious profanity. I found nothing of that, but in one lodge I found what I believe might be our only hope of saving the Warmaster.'
Despite himself, Aximand became caught up in Erebus's words, his oratory worthy of the iterators, with the precise modulation of tone
and timbre to entrance his audience"

Your quote "Yes, the Luna Wolves lodge existed before the fall to Chaos of Lorgar, but Erebus had nothing to do with it. Only after Lorgar fell to Chaos did Erebus start using the lodge to turn the Luna Wolves and spread them to other legions. Erebus wasn't attached to the Luna Wolves when the lodge started amd was only detached after the fall to Chaos. "

Your quote said nothing of the kind. All that quote said is Lorgars conspiracy is wide.

Lorgar did not start the HH.



Did the Emperor intend to be a God? @ 2018/07/05 06:19:45


Post by: Disciple of Fate


You said that "The HH would have happened without Lorgar at all.", but I never denied that. But if Lorgar wasn't turned then it would be an entirely different HH.

Again, how many times do I have to explain that that book quote says absolutely nothing about the founding? All it proves is that Erebus got Abaddon and Aximand in, not that he was there for the creation lf the lodges decades ago. Again, your other quote isn't proof that Erebus founded the LW lodges, just that he claimed he studied the original ones to convince them to take Horus there, but Erebus had already laid the groundwork and is actively manipulating the LW, by this time hence his claims.

Where does the book say Sejanus was part of the lodge? Sejanus is only mentioned in context to his membership of the Mournival iirc. That's the place Loken takes. Unless you mistake it for the parts that Sejanus is in when its actually Erebus pretending to be him to Horus.

Go read First Heretic, Lorgar fell years before Ullanor. Monarchia took place before the Emperor left for Terra, which is directly after Ullanor. Lorgar fell before Ullanor. Its simple, Lorgar gets censured by the Emperor, who still participates in the GC. Immediatetly after this Lorgar goes to the EoT to learn the truth. Then he comes back and is at the parades on Ullanor, when the Emperor leaves the GC and returns to Terra. Lorgar got corrupted in the EoT, before Ullanor.

The LW did copy the lodges from Davin's moon, this has been part of the lore for a while now. I can dig out my books after work.

Again, my quote does say that:
"Erebus now stands at the Warmaster's side."
Now meaning he wasn't standing at the Warmaster's side when the whole web got started but he is now. Lorgar was in on it from the start. And seeing as the start was after the compliance of Davin'a moon its hard to argue that Erebus, still attached to his own legion had the ability to quickly create lodges in the LW and have them still be around decades later when he joined Horus's fleet.

And if you want to get that pedantic, neither Erebus nor Lorgar started the HH, Horus did. But its undeniable that Lorgar did just as much work preparing for the HH as Erebus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here, to disprove the fact that Erebus is said to have founded the lodges in the Luna Wolves.

Horus Rising page 246
But fraternal lodges did exist within the Astartes, occult and private. According to rumours, they had been active in the XVI Legion for a long time. Some six decades earlier [my note: this means its at least a decade before the WB went over to Chaos as per Lorgar having prepared for the HH for 50 years.], the Luna Wolves, in collaboration with the XVII Legion, the Word Bearers, had undertaken the compliance of a world called Davin. A feral place, Davin had been controlled by a remarkable warrior caste, whose savage nobility had won the respects of the Astartes sent to pacify their warring feuds. The Davinite warriors had ruled their world through a complex structure of warrior lodges, quasi-religious societies that had venerated various local predators. By cultural osmosis, the lodge practices had been quietly absorbed by the Legions.

See, no mention of Erebus having founded them, them having been founded at least a decade before the WB turned to Chaos and decades before Erebus was detached to the Luna Wolves.