Frazzled wrote:
Let us have hope they all make it out. Trying to get them out via diving sounds terribly dangerous.

I am surprised they gave not gone the Chile option and started drilling a shaft to them.

 djones520 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Let us have hope they all make it out. Trying to get them out via diving sounds terribly dangerous.

I am surprised they gave not gone the Chile option and started drilling a shaft to them.

They're looking at that option, but it's a time concern. They had .6 miles to drill through, and they had significant concerns about heavy rain this week that would force their hand on the diving option.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Personally, I'd go for the diving option. It really, really can't be that hard to strap a mask to your face, and breath.

Tie off to each other, let someone professional (like the Seal team members) lead them out and ta-daa! Magic rescue time.

I would be terrified of someone trying to drill / excavate me out. I've worked around those machines and the thought of being anywhere near the business end gives me the heebie-jeebies.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Personally, I'd go for the diving option. It really, really can't be that hard to strap a mask to your face, and breath.

Tie off to each other, let someone professional (like the Seal team members) lead them out and ta-daa! Magic rescue time.

I would be terrified of someone trying to drill / excavate me out. I've worked around those machines and the thought of being anywhere near the business end gives me the heebie-jeebies.

 djones520 wrote:
Yeah, the SEAL's were saying it was a very tough, dangerous dive, and you don't get more expert on that type of thing then SEAL's. There is no great option here.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I'd take the Seal team's advice, of course. I'm imagining taking a rope from the exit, bring it to the trapped, and then putting them in scuba gear and following the rope to safety. I'm sure it's harder than that... but I'd want out ASAP and that seems like a "We could do it today" kind of option.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah. Diving is dangerous, climbing around in caves is dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves is incredibly dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves while carrying someone who can't swim seems positively suicidal.
I can easily see why the experts are not entirely enthusiastic about this. Drilling a shaft down to a part of the cave that is closer to the boys may be safer.
Does anyone know where the water in the cave comes from? If it is an underground river they could possibly divert it to lower the water level again. That would be more difficult of course if the water comes down from the surface or wells up through porous rock.
Then again, there may not be time for all of that. Water levels could rise even further. Teaching the boys basic swimming and diving principles and then getting them out with the aid of experts may be the only option.

 djones520 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah. Diving is dangerous, climbing around in caves is dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves is incredibly dangerous. Diving while climbing around in caves while carrying someone who can't swim seems positively suicidal.
I can easily see why the experts are not entirely enthusiastic about this. Drilling a shaft down to a part of the cave that is closer to the boys may be safer.
Does anyone know where the water in the cave comes from? If it is an underground river they could possibly divert it to lower the water level again. That would be more difficult of course if the water comes down from the surface or wells up through porous rock.
Then again, there may not be time for all of that. Water levels could rise even further. Teaching the boys basic swimming and diving principles and then getting them out with the aid of experts may be the only option.

Sounds like it's just drainage from surrounding areas, with the emphasis that they were putting on concerns about forecasted heavy rains.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Not to be a giant ass about this, but if they're tethered to a rope, they don't really need to know how to swim. If they have rocks and a bag, they can adjust their buoyancy to neutral, and just comfortably float. Pull yourself along the rope, and you're there.

Take them one at a time, or a pair. I get that caving is dangerous. I get that spelunking underwater is dangerous. But so is being stuck in a fething underwater cave until who knows when, hoping some donkey-cave doesn't punch a hole in your cave that suddenly causes a cave-in.

I acknowledge that this is my own bias here, but I'd be getting out of there as soon as I possibly could. I couldn't imagine being stuck underground in the dark, waiting for the water to rise up and drown me. I would be getting out of that place pronto. I'm twitchy just thinking about it! I'd be fighting with someone to give me their tank... and I'd probably die trying to get out. But feth me I wouldn't stay in that hole.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying its a better chance for survival than staying put. I'm saying that trying to bore a hole to a space the size of a living room, from nearly a kilometer above, is almost impossible.

I don't know much about scuba, but I do know a bit about drilling and mining. Imagine dropping a dart from the tallest skyscraper, and trying to hit a specifi car. Except you're in a dense fog, and can't see the car.

That's what hitting that pocket would be like. Even the slightest mistake and you miss. And you have to get down there before they drown. You don't just blow a hole 800 m down overnight. And it can't collapse. You can't collapse what's underneath.

What happens if you hit a waterway, on the way down? Sorry kids, speed drowning!

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that would be my preference.

Talinsin wrote:
The kids could likely be taught basic scuba in a day, but cave diving takes a lot of experience and practice. If the kids were tethered and buddied with a rescuer each, using a 7ft hose (rescuer carries tank) and full face mask, all it would take is a touch of panic and the rescuer would have little chance at assisting while the kid drowned in their arms. Granted, the kids made it in, so they likely are not too claustrophobic, but many people are VERY uncomfortable underwater and there is no safe environment for them to practice in.
Diving out is a possibility, but not a great one.
If I was responsible for the kids, there's no chance I'd suggest diving out.
Edit: Even with thousands of dives under my belt, I'd be very hesitant to try it myself.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think we're both afraid of the devil we know.

I would not ever want to be underground, underwater, period. For damned sure not while someone was drilling or excavating above me. I'd rather take the chance with a devil I don't know, in that case, which for me is diving out.

If anyone here has the idea that drilling and or blasting their way down is in someway "safe" it is not. I don't dispute the danger of diving, but the ground there is apt to be soft, if not saturated. A cave-in is almost certain in that kind of situation.

You wouldn't have a way to keep the walls from collapsing as you dig / drill. When you get close to the "bottom" you have no real way of knowing. You drill into that pocket, and all the slop that's at the bottom of the hole suddenly fills that cavity. You're crushed / drowned in mud. That's a very real possibility too.

The problem is, there's no guarantee they won't be flooded out in 1 month. Or 1 week. Or tomorrow. A sudden increase in groundwater and they could drown anyway. I'm really not saying it's a good option. I'm saying it's better than drowning, or being crushed when a rescue attempt collapses. I could not wait for months in a cave. I just couldn't do it.


I'd bet all solutions being considered have been told, "This is a bad idea, think of something else." Waiting is dangerous. Diving is dangerous. Digging is dangerous. I'm not ignoring the advice of the Divers, but I'm also considering the (presumed advice) of the other options.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think we're both afraid of the devil we know.

I would not ever want to be underground, underwater, period. For damned sure not while someone was drilling or excavating above me. I'd rather take the chance with a devil I don't know, in that case, which for me is diving out.

If anyone here has the idea that drilling and or blasting their way down is in someway "safe" it is not. I don't dispute the danger of diving, but the ground there is apt to be soft, if not saturated. A cave-in is almost certain in that kind of situation.

You wouldn't have a way to keep the walls from collapsing as you dig / drill. When you get close to the "bottom" you have no real way of knowing. You drill into that pocket, and all the slop that's at the bottom of the hole suddenly fills that cavity. You're crushed / drowned in mud. That's a very real possibility too.

The problem is, there's no guarantee they won't be flooded out in 1 month. Or 1 week. Or tomorrow. A sudden increase in groundwater and they could drown anyway. I'm really not saying it's a good option. I'm saying it's better than drowning, or being crushed when a rescue attempt collapses. I could not wait for months in a cave. I just couldn't do it.


I'd bet all solutions being considered have been told, "This is a bad idea, think of something else." Waiting is dangerous. Diving is dangerous. Digging is dangerous. I'm not ignoring the advice of the Divers, but I'm also considering the (presumed advice) of the other options.

You never want to rush a rescue like this. Especially if the rescue is much more dangerous than staying put and waiting it out. Is it awful they will be stuck down there longer? Absolutely. These poor kids are going through an awful ordeal. Is it better to risk the lives of the children and rescuers, putting even more people in danger, just to get them out quicker? Feth no that is stupid. You never rush in to a situation like this. You do not want to add more people to the list of people being rescued.

Sit back. Take a deep breath. You are freaking out. Let the experts do the things the experts were trained to do. Nobody rushes in like a cowboy in situations like this. That is how you felt up.

 Necros wrote:
Couldn't they pump the water out somehow? Drilling worked in Chile but isn't it a lot farther and not mapped well enough so it's easy to miss? Or could they drill horizontally and make a tunnel that's above the water line?

 Necros wrote:
Couldn't they pump the water out somehow? Drilling worked in Chile but isn't it a lot farther and not mapped well enough so it's easy to miss? Or could they drill horizontally and make a tunnel that's above the water line?

beast_gts wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Yeah, the SEAL's were saying it was a very tough, dangerous dive, and you don't get more expert on that type of thing then SEAL's. There is no great option here.

And the RTN SEALs themselves called in international experts who had previously dived those caves before attempting it - the group that found them had a Brit in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


(From the BBC

 Overread wrote:
Have to say for news coverage that some darn nice photography in the first link to details!



This map from the BB article that Beast just posted above I think goes to show how difficult and how far into the cave system they are

Spoiler:

In short that's a very long way to travel. Its even longer if you are in a highly stressed state and scared and totally inexperienced. Taking off your tank, pushing through super tight gaps, the risk of getting stuck even for a moment could tip that panic over the edge. In addition don't forget the darkness and tightness and being underwater all at once. It might only take one torch to blink out and suddenly you're trapped, unable to move, totally untrusting in your gear, having no prior safer situation where you've wriggled through to know what to do etc.... And those around you can't even speak to you to offer the most basic reassurance because you're underwater.

All you can hear is bubbling water gurgling around your ears for what might feel like hours.

And then we are going to add the fact that these people are not swimmers, some can't even swim; not climbers or cavers and are already over a week weakened on a water diet and being scared out of their wits (I didn't see it mentioned but I'd honestly suspect that they spend the latter days of that time in total pitch black darkness - if they conserved a torch light it would only have been used sparingly.

If the cave was wide and thus they could just hold a rope and follow it along that would be an option, but this is a situation where part way they'd have to wriggle out of a tank to push it infront of them. Where they'd have to follow a twisty winding path through segments that are very tight.


Honestly I can well understand them not wanting to extract them via cave diving. If where they are is safe and they can get food, clean water and lighting to them then its far far safer that they remain where they are.
Drilling I think would be dangerous as well, they are in a tiny spot and gaining access without risking rock fall or other problems could prove to be very difficult.



Pumping out the water and blocking off as much water access is probably the best approach; even if its only to keep the level at a point where the group is safe within their current location.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44734385



A former Thai navy diver has died while taking part in efforts to rescue 12 boys and their football coach trapped in a flooded cave in Thailand.

Petty Officer Saman Gunan lost consciousness on his way out of the Tham Luang cave complex, where he had been delivering air tanks.

"His job was to deliver oxygen. He did not have enough on his way back," the Chiang Rai deputy governor said.

nou wrote:
As a spelunker myself, I must say, that anyone here advocating diving as a valid option doesn't know what he's talking about. I know spelunking instructors that won't ever dive in fully flooded tunnel... If this cave tight spots require you to take off canister, then "attaching boys to a guide rope" or some sort of "tandem dive" with a rescuer is not an option - even in dry tight places it is usually impossible to assist anyone. Add to that scuba gear and 5-10 cm visibility (very typical cave diving conditions) and you can see why this SEAL run out of oxygen.

Divers are there to provide resupply options for the boys, not to bring them back to the surface and that was clear to anyone with any real cave experience.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Drilling would probably be safsr at that point. If waters rise, I assume the current would get very swift. Weakened kids swimming against a current is bad enough. In a tight cave system? Suicide for them or anybody trying to help them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Drilling would probably be safsr at that point. If waters rise, I assume the current would get very swift. Weakened kids swimming against a current is bad enough. In a tight cave system? Suicide for them or anybody trying to help them.

Drilling is not really a realistic option. Not with the limited time they have.

 Overread wrote:
I wonder if its possible to run a single pipe to run air that far? AT the very least that would reduce the number of runs needing to be made (food would still be needed but at least not big heavy air tanks).

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Drilling would probably be safsr at that point. If waters rise, I assume the current would get very swift. Weakened kids swimming against a current is bad enough. In a tight cave system? Suicide for them or anybody trying to help them.

Drilling is not really a realistic option. Not with the limited time they have.

There are no good options here. But diving risks doubling the casualties. That is assuming each child has somebody with them helping. Then when they are moving them out, if say a child were to die in a bad spot, they would then have to move the body to keep it from blocking others. Which could take time, energy, and oxygen.

Pumping out the water and doing their best to block any more getting in is their best bet. Second to that, drilling.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I wonder if its possible to run a single pipe to run air that far? AT the very least that would reduce the number of runs needing to be made (food would still be needed but at least not big heavy air tanks).

They are trying to install a 5 km long oxygen line. But earlier efforts to install a line failed, so it remains to be seen whether they will be able to get it ready in time.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Drilling would probably be safsr at that point. If waters rise, I assume the current would get very swift. Weakened kids swimming against a current is bad enough. In a tight cave system? Suicide for them or anybody trying to help them.

Drilling is not really a realistic option. Not with the limited time they have.

There are no good options here. But diving risks doubling the casualties. That is assuming each child has somebody with them helping. Then when they are moving them out, if say a child were to die in a bad spot, they would then have to move the body to keep it from blocking others. Which could take time, energy, and oxygen.

Pumping out the water and doing their best to block any more getting in is their best bet. Second to that, drilling.

No, drilling is simply not possible. They have already abandoned that idea altogether. There just is not enough time to install the equipment and drill a kilometer-deep hole before Sunday, which is when the cave is likely going to be flooded entirely and the boys will drown. However, they have been combing out the jungle for other tunnels, and they may have discovered an alternative entrance.

 Overread wrote:
I wonder if its possible to run a single pipe to run air that far? AT the very least that would reduce the number of runs needing to be made (food would still be needed but at least not big heavy air tanks).

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I wonder if its possible to run a single pipe to run air that far? AT the very least that would reduce the number of runs needing to be made (food would still be needed but at least not big heavy air tanks).

They are trying to install a 5 km long oxygen line. But earlier efforts to install a line failed, so it remains to be seen whether they will be able to get it ready in time.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Drilling would probably be safsr at that point. If waters rise, I assume the current would get very swift. Weakened kids swimming against a current is bad enough. In a tight cave system? Suicide for them or anybody trying to help them.

Drilling is not really a realistic option. Not with the limited time they have.

There are no good options here. But diving risks doubling the casualties. That is assuming each child has somebody with them helping. Then when they are moving them out, if say a child were to die in a bad spot, they would then have to move the body to keep it from blocking others. Which could take time, energy, and oxygen.

Pumping out the water and doing their best to block any more getting in is their best bet. Second to that, drilling.

No, drilling is simply not possible. They have already abandoned that idea altogether. There just is not enough time to install the equipment and drill a kilometer-deep hole before Sunday, which is when the cave is likely going to be flooded entirely and the boys will drown. However, they have been combing out the jungle for other tunnels, and they may have discovered an alternative entrance.

Cool story Iron_Captain. I mean it is 100% untrue, but cool story anyways.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thai-cave-rescue-team-may-be-able-to-drill-down-to-reach-boys-says-engineer

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Looking at that map above, the part marked "Smallest section of tunnel" is giving me mild panic just looking at the diagram. I would never have made it through that section on the way in (presumably when it was dry), never mind trying to get through it underwater, in pitch darkness.

 Frazzled wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Looking at that map above, the part marked "Smallest section of tunnel" is giving me mild panic just looking at the diagram. I would never have made it through that section on the way in (presumably when it was dry), never mind trying to get through it underwater, in pitch darkness.

Agreed. Does that means the kids went through that to escape rising water, in the dark? How the hell did they manage to stay together?

Could they get some good coal minors in there to kick ass and widen openings to get them out?

nou wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Looking at that map above, the part marked "Smallest section of tunnel" is giving me mild panic just looking at the diagram. I would never have made it through that section on the way in (presumably when it was dry), never mind trying to get through it underwater, in pitch darkness.

Agreed. Does that means the kids went through that to escape rising water, in the dark? How the hell did they manage to stay together?

Could they get some good coal minors in there to kick ass and widen openings to get them out?

Ths reminds me of one anecdote: there was once a cave exploration in Poland, that reached a possible opening of the new cave section, but the opening was too small (rather symbolic canal really). So my fellow spelunking instructor invited a mining team to help them widen this opening, but miners freaked out because caves are not pitproped. Habits do die very hard...

 Frazzled wrote:


Could they get some good coal minors in there....

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Seems like the attempt to get an oxygen cable into the cave was unsuccessful. Also, it has started to rain...

Also, the boys apparently have a lot of experience with this cave. They went into it to explore it many times, at times even farther in than where they are stuck now. Well, I guess that they won't be going back anymore if they survive this ordeal.

 Lone Cat wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Seems like the attempt to get an oxygen cable into the cave was unsuccessful. Also, it has started to rain...

Also, the boys apparently have a lot of experience with this cave. They went into it to explore it many times, at times even farther in than where they are stuck now. Well, I guess that they won't be going back anymore if they survive this ordeal.

And that's quite a big excuse (in addition to the FIFA 2018 Worldcup Final Round Invitation) to evac these kids TODAY.! Beginning at 10:00 AM Local time. estimated to finish at 9:00 PM

the Command Center declared that it was a right moment to get them out. NOW OR NEVER (the cave was said to be dry enough to easily walk out, yet the rainstorm is coming)

 Lone Cat wrote:
NO! After four teenage footballers rescued. the whole team must take a '10-hour break' (to resupply things like O2 containers, and an entire rescue team themselves must take a break after arduous hours of works, hopefully everyone will be evacuated by tomorrow.

judging from this scenario. I'm not quite sure whether will these teenaged will be up to FIFA offer to see Worldcup Final in Moscow in time? (or will medteams released them in time to see the show?)

 jhe90 wrote:
Well 4 per run, and 9 remaining..

Though they took weakest first so later runs may be faster and additional gear is on route to support it.

 Lone Cat wrote:


judging from this scenario. I'm not quite sure whether will these teenaged will be up to FIFA offer to see Worldcup Final in Moscow in time? (or will medteams released them in time to see the show?)
.

The expert divers involved in the rescue operation will be doing the majority of the work for the boys as they come out of the cave system, Peter Dennis, from the British Cave Rescue Council, told the BBC.

The boys would remain largely passive as they were guided through the cave system, he said.

"There's been a lot of comment on them needing to learn to dive before they could come out. Well, that isn't the case. They're just essentially being pulled through the water," he said.

"They have their full face mask and their air supply so they can breathe as normal. They have an air supply around their face over this much larger screened mask and that's been the key really to getting the four out successfully yesterday."

Mr Dennis also said he thought the boys would have been lightly sedated by a doctor who joined them in the chamber, to prevent them from panicking during the journey out.

 filbert wrote:
Interesting insight from the BBC:

The expert divers involved in the rescue operation will be doing the majority of the work for the boys as they come out of the cave system, Peter Dennis, from the British Cave Rescue Council, told the BBC.

The boys would remain largely passive as they were guided through the cave system, he said.

"There's been a lot of comment on them needing to learn to dive before they could come out. Well, that isn't the case. They're just essentially being pulled through the water," he said.

"They have their full face mask and their air supply so they can breathe as normal. They have an air supply around their face over this much larger screened mask and that's been the key really to getting the four out successfully yesterday."

Mr Dennis also said he thought the boys would have been lightly sedated by a doctor who joined them in the chamber, to prevent them from panicking during the journey out.

Makes sense really. I would have thought in that situation the difficulty is not so much in the actual physicality of getting out (although that is clearly a huge challenge in itself) but more that the absolute last thing you need is a panicked, frightened child in a tight, claustrophobic situation.

Rescuers working at a cave site in northern Thailand have suspended operations for the day after bringing four more boys out of the flooded cave system Monday, according to a witness working with the rescue team, bringing the total number of rescued boys to eight.

Four more boys and their coach remain trapped inside the Tham Luang Nang Non cave complex.

 d-usa wrote:
Are they still dragging the kids out through tunnels that are completely flooded?

I wonder if circumstances have changed where maybe....

- They were able to pump out water, requiring less time underwater on each trip?
- Forecasts for future rains are not looking good for the survival of the kids?
- Oxygen levels in the cave were deteriorating and they were unable to pump in fresh air?

So circumstances change, what they are doing is still extremely risky and you would have to be ignorant to assume that it isn't. The situation has just changed where a gakky option became the best option.

The diving option has produced one fatality so far, and the person who died was about as experienced of a diver as you can be.

 d-usa wrote:
Are they still dragging the kids out through tunnels that are completely flooded?

I wonder if circumstances have changed where maybe....

- They were able to pump out water, requiring less time underwater on each trip?
- Forecasts for future rains are not looking good for the survival of the kids?
- Oxygen levels in the cave were deteriorating and they were unable to pump in fresh air?

So circumstances change, what they are doing is still extremely risky and you would have to be ignorant to assume that it isn't. The situation has just changed where a gakky option became the best option.

The diving option has produced one fatality so far, and the person who died was about as experienced of a diver as you can be.

 d-usa wrote:
Are they still dragging the kids out through tunnels that are completely flooded?

I wonder if circumstances have changed where maybe....

- They were able to pump out water, requiring less time underwater on each trip?
- Forecasts for future rains are not looking good for the survival of the kids?
- Oxygen levels in the cave were deteriorating and they were unable to pump in fresh air?

So circumstances change, what they are doing is still extremely risky and you would have to be ignorant to assume that it isn't. The situation has just changed where a gakky option became the best option.

The diving option has produced one fatality so far, and the person who died was about as experienced of a diver as you can be.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Are they still dragging the kids out through tunnels that are completely flooded?

I wonder if circumstances have changed where maybe....

- They were able to pump out water, requiring less time underwater on each trip?
- Forecasts for future rains are not looking good for the survival of the kids?
- Oxygen levels in the cave were deteriorating and they were unable to pump in fresh air?

So circumstances change, what they are doing is still extremely risky and you would have to be ignorant to assume that it isn't. The situation has just changed where a gakky option became the best option.

The diving option has produced one fatality so far, and the person who died was about as experienced of a diver as you can be.

They have been pumping water out the whole time. They can't keep up with what is coming in (were talking about a huge area draining into it)
I'm guessing they just don't have the right equipment to replenish their air supply. From what I understand they are roughly 2.5 KM away from the opening to the cave. So all you'd need to give them a continuous supply of fresh air would be 2x 2.5km hoses with an airpump attached to 1 of them. The other hose would automatically remove the stale air (they must not have this available). They have been using Oxygen tanks to get them air - seems desperate.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Are they still dragging the kids out through tunnels that are completely flooded?

I wonder if circumstances have changed where maybe....

- They were able to pump out water, requiring less time underwater on each trip?
- Forecasts for future rains are not looking good for the survival of the kids?
- Oxygen levels in the cave were deteriorating and they were unable to pump in fresh air?

So circumstances change, what they are doing is still extremely risky and you would have to be ignorant to assume that it isn't. The situation has just changed where a gakky option became the best option.

The diving option has produced one fatality so far, and the person who died was about as experienced of a diver as you can be.

They have been pumping water out the whole time. They can't keep up with what is coming in (were talking about a huge area draining into it)
I'm guessing they just don't have the right equipment to replenish their air supply. From what I understand they are roughly 2.5 KM away from the opening to the cave. So all you'd need to give them a continuous supply of fresh air would be 2x 2.5km hoses with an airpump attached to 1 of them. The other hose would automatically remove the stale air (they must not have this available). They have been using Oxygen tanks to get them air - seems desperate.

They tried this. They couldn't get the hoses through the cave.

 greatbigtree wrote:
But it's so dangerous it's nearly impossible! We should drill! There's no way they could just drag the kids out with a rope, or something. You don't understand how dangerous it is! Yer Ignant!

Ahem, now that that's out of the way...

I'm happy the rescue operation is going well. Kudos to the well trained personnel doing the good work in a difficult situation.

And yes, I'm scoring an I told you so, on the backs of endangered children. Sometimes I'm too petty for words.

 RiTides wrote:
I have been looking for info on who the British divers are that located the boys - has that been posted anywhere? It is pretty crazy the number of experts who are helping with this rescue!

 RiTides wrote:
Whoa - I just read here that that choke point is approximately 40cm... that's less than 16 inches



I don't even know if I can even fit through a 16 inch hole... makes me wonder if this isn't the route the boys took to get through the cave, as that doesn't sound fun even as an adventure!

 RiTides wrote:
I have been looking for info on who the British divers are that located the boys - has that been posted anywhere? It is pretty crazy the number of experts who are helping with this rescue!

Meet the seven British divers playing leading roles in the Thai cave rescue mission

It is the most challenging underground rescue in history, and Thai authorities have drafted in more than 90 of the world's finest special forces soldiers.

But the spearhead of the Thai cave rescue operation has depended on seven British civilians who learnt their craft exploring the chilly waters of abandoned mines and limestone caves of England and Wales.

Vernon Unsworth

First on the scene was Vernon Unsworth, who is from St Albans but now lives in Thailand.

Mr Unsworth, an experienced diver who now lives close to the caves, was crucial in persuading Thai authorities to bring in UK expertise.

"When Thai Navy Seals went into the cave but they could not see anything because the water is so muddy so they came back, Chaiyon Srisamut, a friend of Mr Unsworth, told the Daily Mail.

"He he knew some English guys who could definitely help."

John Volanthen and Rick Stanton

With the go-ahead from Thai authorities, Mr Unsworth contacted John Volanthen, an IT consultant based in Bristol, and Rick Stanton, a former midlands fire fighter.

The pair have been described as the "A Team" by Bill Whitehouse, vice chairman of the British Cave Rescue Council.

Mr Stanton, 56, Mr Volanthen, 47, discovered the boys and their coach trapped in an air pocket 2.5 miles into the cave system last week.

Mr Whitehous told Radio 4's Today programme last week: "They have been at the spearhead of making their way through because they have the skills and expertise to do it.

"One of the first things they had to do in pushing through is lay a guideline so that they could get out again and so others could follow along."

Voices heard on a video of the moment the group was discovered in the cave belong to Mr Stanton and Mr Volanthen.

The pair have established a reputation as being among the greatest cave rescue divers on the planet - but both have day jobs in the UK.

Mr Stanton has been a firefighter in Coventry for quarter of a century, while Mr Volanthen is an IT consultant based in Bristol.

Both are volunteers with the South and Mid Wales Cave Rescue Team.

In 2011, the pair set a world record for the longest cave dive, penetrating 9km (5.5 miles) down a system in northern Spain using specially developed equipment.

Robert Harper

The UK divers operation to locate the lost boys was overseen by Mr Harper, 70, a veteran potholing expert from Somerset.

He was given a hero’s send-off by the Thai authorities as he left Thailand on Thursday.

Weerasak Kowsurat, the sports minister, thanked him for his “dedication to duty and professionalism,” before he left.

Chris Jewell and Jason Mallison

The British team have now been joined by two more divers: Chris Jewell and Jason Mallison of the Cave Diving Group, Britain's oldest amateur association of subterranean divers.

Both are considered experts in the tight-knit community of cave divers. Mr Mallison previously rescued six British cavers from Mexico's Cueva de Alpazat cave system.

In 2010, he joined up with Mr Stanton and Mr Volanthen to break the record for the longest ever cave dive.

The trio, along with Dutch explorer Rene Houben, spent 50 hours underground charting 5.5 miles of previously unexplored submerged caves in Mexico.

Tim Acton

Also on the scene is Tim Acton, 39, who grew up in Harwich and first learnt his trade diving off the Essex coast.

He moved to Southeast Asia 12 years ago and now runs a holiday complex in Thailand with his wife, Took.

In 2004 he was caught up in the Boxing Day Tsunami and earned a commendation from the British Ambassador for his efforts to save lives when the village where he was running a diving school was swamped.

He was invited to join the cave rescue by contacts in the Thai Navy SEALs.

He has been inside the cave system several times during the operation.

His father, John, 71, said: “There’s a total media blackout at the moment so we are getting no information.

“All I know is Tim got a call to go on stand by to go to the caves by the Thai Naval Seals and he had to send the measurements of his shoulders because they didn’t know if his shoulders were too big to go in there.

“Then he got the call to go to (Chiang Rai) they picked him up to go to the airport, apparently they are in excellent accommodation.

“He was told there were 55 naval seals in Team One and in Team Two, which he was to be part of, was the supply team with 20 ex-Naval Seals and two Westerners - Tim and his mate who is a Spaniard.

“Up until Saturday besides the two English divers who found them they were the only two Western divers, since them I’m led to believe an Australian cave diving team has gone in there.

“I’m very proud of the fact of his selflessness. He’s doing nothing different to what our armed forces, police and firemen do every day, by putting his life at risk to help someone else.

“I spoke to him just before he left ... he said he was feeling a bit nervous which I was pleased about.

“If he didn’t have any nerves I’d be a bit worried.”

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Whoa - I just read here that that choke point is approximately 40cm... that's less than 16 inches



I don't even know if I can even fit through a 16 inch hole... makes me wonder if this isn't the route the boys took to get through the cave, as that doesn't sound fun even as an adventure!

Small openings are pretty common in caves. Crawling through a narrow hole to find all new passageways is half the fun in exploring a cave! I have squeezed myself through smaller openings than that. Though never underwater. I would never swim in a cave. That is just risky.

All this talk of caves really makes me want to do speleology again. Too bad I have already had my holiday trip this year.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Small openings are pretty common in caves. Crawling through a narrow hole to find all new passageways is half the fun in exploring a cave!

 Necros wrote:
I don't even think I could fit 1 blubbery thigh through a 16 inch hole. The rest of me, no way.

CNN says they're all out now

 d-usa wrote:
And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

 thecountrygoblin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

Pretty nasty business to call someone a pedo, especially with nothing to support the claim!

 War Drone wrote:
I believe there is a mindset that "White bloke living in Thailand = Pedo".

But I'm surprised and disappointed that someone like Musk apparently subscribes to it.

Dr. Mills wrote:

 War Drone wrote:
I believe there is a mindset that "White bloke living in Thailand = Pedo".

But I'm surprised and disappointed that someone like Musk apparently subscribes to it.

But that's the problem - the rescuer was transported to help from Britain where he lives. Its simply a slander.

But its Musk. The man is a massive bell end and I hope tesla takes a share kicking from his irresponsible behaviour.

AndrewGPaul wrote:From that Guardian article. it sounds like one of Elon Musk's major shareholders will be having a word.

 Lone Cat wrote:
Even so. these thirteens will be hospitalized for some time. there's a concerns regarding to contageous lung diseases found in triage tents. in the first day. the last of the first batch rescued were diagnosed with such. who knows if the rest of the football team will be infected as well?

jouso wrote:

 thecountrygoblin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

Pretty nasty business to call someone a pedo, especially with nothing to support the claim!

He's deleted the tweet since.

Still zero class. The man has gone off the rails since the Tesla issues with production, he should quit twitter for a good while, or let a PR guy handle it.

 thecountrygoblin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

Pretty nasty business to call someone a pedo, especially with nothing to support the claim!

 War Drone wrote:
I believe there is a mindset that "White bloke living in Thailand = Pedo".

But I'm surprised and disappointed that someone like Musk apparently subscribes to it.

 Power Elephant wrote:

 War Drone wrote:
I believe there is a mindset that "White bloke living in Thailand = Pedo".

But I'm surprised and disappointed that someone like Musk apparently subscribes to it.

While stereotypes are generally a pretty useful thing, deciding to call someone a pedophile because they didn't find your submarine useful is pretty terrible, and not to mention stupid, especially when the person who you're insulting is crucial to saving children that the entire world is looking at. He either let the money and fame get to his head or has some information we're not privy to, though the former is far, far more likely.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 thecountrygoblin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And in the aftermath of it all, Musk is now calling the British rescuer a pedophile.

He’s gone off the handle worse than usual.

Pretty nasty business to call someone a pedo, especially with nothing to support the claim!

Especially considering the accusation of paedo stems from the diver not wanting Elon's hard torpedo being squeezed up the schoolboys' twisty passage.