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Post by: lolman1c
It might just be me but I've noticed recently that GW has taken a rule from the Video games worlds books and potentially started cutting up rules to sell later on as DLC content (obviously it's not DLC as you can't download it. It's more BLC like, buy later content. But there isn't enough content to be a full expansion). For example, I'm noticing a remarkable number of units missing from these kill team previews. Units that are plastic and you would obviously expect to be there (Orgyns and Bulgryns for example). The recent Tyranids preview shows it has nothing to do with their size (as tyranid warriors are there) so I'm predicting we will see DLC style content where we're given the option to buy the options that are missing. We are basically getting day one DLC (just like the video game industry) already as GW has decided to not sell every factions rules (the command abilities mainly I belive) in the core rule book and has opted to make them exclusive to the units starter packs.
So, I'm wondering what you guys think? Are they cutting out rules to sell later? Is there any evidence either way? Is this good or bad (the gamers in the digital industry are highly against most DLC now)? And does this mean we might finally get a DLC season pass where we get all the rules we want for a monthly fee?
Discuss below!
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Post by: Reemule
I think a better question is how long is GW going to charge for rules? So many other games have go to downloaded for free rules, and living rulebooks, and such.
I’d prefer that system. I don’t feel GW puts out such high quality rules I want to spend money on them. I also feel like I just want the rules, Not sure I want to spend money to subsidise the art industry that GW has.
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Post by: SirWeeble
GW can make a profit off of printing rules due to the power of bulk discounts. Other game companies have a smaller audience and the profit on printed rulebooks is negligible or non-existent.
EG: GW has more leverage and can print 1million books at a lower cost per unit than a very small minis company that is looking to print 20k units. A company printing 20k codex-sized books, after labor(design/rules/fiction), printing, and shipping, is likely paying 15-25 dollars per book.
As always, its a matter of cost, not companies being nice. GW will continue to print rulebooks as long as it is profitable for them.
I think the expectation of 'free' rules is a downward spiral for gaming. 'free' means the manufacturer isn't incentivized to develop the backstory as well, nor art, or anything else that expands the gameworld.
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Post by: lolman1c
SirWeeble wrote:GW can make a profit off of printing rules due to the power of bulk discounts. Other game companies have a smaller audience and the profit on printed rulebooks is negligible or non-existent.
EG: GW has more leverage and can print 1million books at a lower cost per unit than a very small minis company that is looking to print 20k units. A company printing 20k codex-sized books, after labor(design/rules/fiction), printing, and shipping, is likely paying 15-25 dollars per book.
As always, its a matter of cost, not companies being nice. GW will continue to print rulebooks as long as it is profitable for them.
I think the expectation of 'free' rules is a downward spiral for gaming. 'free' means the manufacturer isn't incentivized to develop the backstory as well, nor art, or anything else that expands the gameworld.
What kind of business propaganda have you been smoking? Some of the best lore ever created came out of free to play games, free rule and free books. Hell, it's not like Gw starts giving away models as well and they're likely to continue to sell the books just give the data sheets away. Look at AoS as a massive example from GW themselves! Hell, look at the Star Wars universe for the opposite - the more money that IP made the worse the lore and backgrounds got! The first two films were had more deoth and care with a fraction of the budget anything else after had.
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Post by: Karol
Isn't stuff like yearly CA, already something like a seson pass? All GW needs to do to have a full DLC/seson pass system is to split the year in to some sort of seson events. Each event would come with special rules in form of a book that would last for 4 months. Each 4 month the rules would switch, and it would not be legal to use the rules from the seson before. And GW could add spicy stuff like letting ad mecha run necron units, or an eldar+ultramarine soups. Add some seson relics, or stratagems, and people would be killing themselfs to get those event books.
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Post by: Stormonu
GW has been doling out add-ones for years already (see Space Hulk, Deathwing & Genestealer for one of the earliest examples).
I’m not fond of it, considering most is 90% rehashed from stuff that previously existed, but they have to break in it some manner to pay their bills - and make it affordable.
Would be nice though, if they’d go more toward having downloadable (extra) content for free, paper-printed if you want to pay. The AoS battlescrolls and the add-on for Shadow War are an example of what I’m talking about. I’d love if they went to an FFG-like model; you can go to their website and download the rule book for just about any of their games. And I think they have the likes of their cards for X-wing on the site somewhere (heck, WotC has every MtG card to view on their site - they’re still making tons of money).
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Post by: Reemule
Umm when you get right down to it, Between 3d printing and electronic formats, all you can really sell in the future is a compelling universe. GW is already showing this. The Mini’s are good, but not the greatest. The Rules are okay, but not even close to great. The only real first class thing they have is the Fluff, the novels and universe.
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Post by: lolman1c
Karol wrote:Isn't stuff like yearly CA, already something like a seson pass? All GW needs to do to have a full DLC/seson pass system is to split the year in to some sort of seson events. Each event would come with special rules in form of a book that would last for 4 months. Each 4 month the rules would switch, and it would not be legal to use the rules from the seson before. And GW could add spicy stuff like letting ad mecha run necron units, or an eldar+ultramarine soups. Add some seson relics, or stratagems, and people would be killing themselfs to get those event books.
As someone who is way more into gaming than 40k and grew up watching the industry and environment transform this wouldn't surprise me. I seriously was one of those people who was like "I can buy extra content? Wow! Awesome! " as I was used to having to buy it physically from the store. Then, as time went on, I quickky saw a lot of this stuff wasn't extra content at all and was base game stuff that was remove for profit. I think a great example of this would be Star Wars Battlefront 1 (not 2, that games Sin is far far worse). I hope this doesn't happen to 40k but I'm already seeing hints at it... but I could be wrong.
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Post by: Blastaar
 lolman1c wrote:It might just be me but I've noticed recently that GW has taken a rule from the Video games worlds books and potentially started cutting up rules to sell later on as DLC content (obviously it's not DLC as you can't download it. It's more BLC like, buy later content. But there isn't enough content to be a full expansion). For example, I'm noticing a remarkable number of units missing from these kill team previews. Units that are plastic and you would obviously expect to be there (Orgyns and Bulgryns for example). The recent Tyranids preview shows it has nothing to do with their size (as tyranid warriors are there) so I'm predicting we will see DLC style content where we're given the option to buy the options that are missing. We are basically getting day one DLC (just like the video game industry) already as GW has decided to not sell every factions rules (the command abilities mainly I belive) in the core rule book and has opted to make them exclusive to the units starter packs.
So, I'm wondering what you guys think? Are they cutting out rules to sell later? Is there any evidence either way? Is this good or bad (the gamers in the digital industry are highly against most DLC now)? And does this mean we might finally get a DLC season pass where we get all the rules we want for a monthly fee?
Discuss below!
I think it's pretty clear GW has been "inspired" by DLC and "Free to Play' type practices. Look at Necromunda. Underhive doesn't contain what just about everyone seems to agree is the 'core" experience of the game, 3d terrain and campaign progression -those were left out and put into Gang War so players could pay twice for the same product, and since then they've been drip-feeding the gangs and rules. Then there's their preoccupation with boxed sets, which do contain better value, generally, than when the items are sold separately, but are still poor value, and, to get that less-poor value, you have to spend more money than you may want to, because selling individual kits for a fair price is anathema to them. It's buy now, buy often, and buy high. And don't forget the KT boxes with "exclusive" cards!
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Post by: lolman1c
 Stormonu wrote:GW has been doling out add-ones for years already (see Space Hulk, Deathwing & Genestealer for one of the earliest examples).
I’m not fond of it, considering most is 90% rehashed from stuff that previously existed, but they have to break in it some manner to pay their bills - and make it affordable.
Would be nice though, if they’d go more toward having downloadable (extra) content for free, paper-printed if you want to pay. The AoS battlescrolls and the add-on for Shadow War are an example of what I’m talking about. I’d love if they went to an FFG-like model; you can go to their website and download the rule book for just about any of their games. And I think they have the likes of their cards for X-wing on the site somewhere (heck, WotC has every MtG card to view on their site - they’re still making tons of money).
I'm with you but I would argue this stuff is not DLC, it's more an expansion pack. Like a new game mode or something. DLC in my mind is ripping things out of the base game and selling it extra like units that should have been there, skills thatbshouldnhave been there, etc... Automatically Appended Next Post: Reemule wrote:Umm when you get right down to it, Between 3d printing and electronic formats, all you can really sell in the future is a compelling universe. GW is already showing this. The Mini’s are good, but not the greatest. The Rules are okay, but not even close to great. The only real first class thing they have is the Fluff, the novels and universe.
now now... let's not give them too much credit. We all know the fans made 40k the game it is... BL and the codex fluff normally reads like a hormone fulled teenagers who just read LoTR while watching startship troopers and taking cocain. Some of it is okay but it ain't no War and Peace.
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Post by: Stormonu
‘Should have been in the core book” though, is an opinion. Fact is, whether it is new content, core rules doled out piecemeal or regurgitation GW has to pay for it in some way some how. It just sounds like most of us aren’t happy in the way it’s being partitioned.
In the end, I think there’s plenty of ways GW could break that content out to for the betterment of their customers, but GW has ALWAYS been more focused on how they can squeeze a dime out of their customers.
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Post by: lolman1c
Stormonu wrote:‘Should have been in the core book” though, is an opinion. Fact is, whether it is new content, core rules doled out piecemeal or regurgitation GW has to pay for it in some way some how. It just sounds like most of us aren’t happy in the way it’s being partitioned.
In the end, I think there’s plenty of ways GW could break that content out to for the betterment of their customers, but GW has ALWAYS been more focused on how they can squeeze a dime out of their customers.
It's an interesting business practice which has already screwed them over before when they almost became bankrupt between 6th and 7th. But it's funny to see them almost following a trend that in the gaming world has become a stigma that is already almost dead.
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Post by: Peregrine
SirWeeble wrote:I think the expectation of 'free' rules is a downward spiral for gaming. 'free' means the manufacturer isn't incentivized to develop the backstory as well, nor art, or anything else that expands the gameworld.
This is not true at all. Those things drive model sales, take away the fluff/art/etc and nobody buys the game. The shift is not to "let's do this all for charity", it's "everyone pirates the rules anyway, let's give the rules/fluff away to make people buy the real product". Automatically Appended Next Post: Reemule wrote:Umm when you get right down to it, Between 3d printing and electronic formats, all you can really sell in the future is a compelling universe. GW is already showing this. The Mini’s are good, but not the greatest. The Rules are okay, but not even close to great. The only real first class thing they have is the Fluff, the novels and universe.
The problem is that the fluff is inherently tied to those electronic formats. If you're just reading the fluff at home, without buying miniatures and playing games, you can easily pirate a copy of the fluff book. 3d printing, on the other hand, is much farther away from being a threat. Current consumer-level printers aren't anywhere near capable of duplicating real models, and that is not likely to change in the near future. GW's best strategy is to use the easily-pirated stuff as marketing material and make their money on the miniatures that people have to buy.
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Post by: SirWeeble
lolman1c wrote:
What kind of business propaganda have you been smoking? Some of the best lore ever created came out of free to play games, free rule and free books. Hell, it's not like Gw starts giving away models as well and they're likely to continue to sell the books just give the data sheets away. Look at AoS as a massive example from GW themselves! Hell, look at the Star Wars universe for the opposite - the more money that IP made the worse the lore and backgrounds got! The first two films were had more deoth and care with a fraction of the budget anything else after had.
The 'business propaganda' I've been smoking is called "I've actually worked for a tabletop gaming company."
They were making very little money on the printed books, so putting them out for free served the purpose of 'hopefully' drawing people to the game since the rules were free - and it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If they were making decent money off of the books, they would not have given them away for free. However, the development of the free rules used copy-pasted lore and recycled art from older books.
Citing massive IPs from industry leaders doesn't really help your position. The majority of tabletop games are run by small companies.
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Post by: Peregrine
SirWeeble wrote:However, the development of the free rules used copy-pasted lore and recycled art from older books.
IOW, just like GW's current books, except you don't have to pay for them.
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Post by: oni
The DLC model is exactly why I'm avoiding AoS 2nd ed.
Here's a check list of items before you even start accumulating models for the army:
1. Core book
2. Malign sorcery box
3. Generals handbook
4. Faction Battletome
5. Faction specific eternal spells
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Didn't we already bypass this phase with 7th edition?
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Post by: Stormonu
 oni wrote:The DLC model is exactly why I'm avoiding AoS 2nd ed.
Here's a check list of items before you even start accumulating models for the army:
1. Core book
2. Malign sorcery box
3. Generals handbook
4. Faction Battletome
5. Faction specific eternal spells
Or, y’know, play with the downloadable PDF rules and PDFwarscrolls for free.
I have no problem with GW having multiple levels you can delve into the game at, as befits your budget. I do, however, have a problem with people thinking you HAVE to have everything to get started.
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Post by: Karol
Well if your army good stuff is in one book, the rules of the game in another, the points in a third, and the army rules in the 4th, they kind of are obligatory.
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Post by: meleti
Would people rather GW just stop changing the rules entirely, and just save all the changes for another edition in 3-5 years?
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Post by: jeff white
Flaw of corporate capitalism is that transactions create fees which beancounters mistake for wealth so companies try to increase thw numbers of transactions which results in a maximally inefficient system that generates the least good for the most cost
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Post by: Daedalus81
Would you prefer they had made codexes to accommodate the scores of other units or keep everything in one book?
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Post by: Arbitrator
GW realised they can have you pay for patches and people will praise them for it, so.
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Post by: Shas'O'Ceris
I'm most concerned about the exclusive cards. I don't want to pay extra for terrain I don't want to get and duplicates of the models I already have for faction rules supplementing what's in the core. Or telling other players core book only, when the exclusive stuff was available at release and adds personality to the team.
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Post by: BrianDavion
I think looking at video games is going the wrong direction here. I suspect GW is taking a lot of leads from RPGs as well, which have a constant stream of new rules etc to make them money. Might be why I find this stuff less objectionable, I remember buying 2 d&d 3rd edition rule books every month
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Post by: lolman1c
SirWeeble wrote: lolman1c wrote:
What kind of business propaganda have you been smoking? Some of the best lore ever created came out of free to play games, free rule and free books. Hell, it's not like Gw starts giving away models as well and they're likely to continue to sell the books just give the data sheets away. Look at AoS as a massive example from GW themselves! Hell, look at the Star Wars universe for the opposite - the more money that IP made the worse the lore and backgrounds got! The first two films were had more deoth and care with a fraction of the budget anything else after had.
The 'business propaganda' I've been smoking is called "I've actually worked for a tabletop gaming company."
They were making very little money on the printed books, so putting them out for free served the purpose of 'hopefully' drawing people to the game since the rules were free - and it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If they were making decent money off of the books, they would not have given them away for free. However, the development of the free rules used copy-pasted lore and recycled art from older books.
Citing massive IPs from industry leaders doesn't really help your position. The majority of tabletop games are run by small companies.
Oh my! The "I worked for a place so I obviously know more than you could ever know" argument. Well I'm a historian so let me use a reverse argument and tell you I know more about everything that has ever happened in human history more than you and relate that knowledge to wargaming and suddenly I now know more than you.  but no, seriously, GW writers were payed a fortune throuh 4th to 7th editions and their writing sucked! It was some of the worst fluff I had ever read outside of fan fiction. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrianDavion wrote:I think looking at video games is going the wrong direction here. I suspect GW is taking a lot of leads from RPGs as well, which have a constant stream of new rules etc to make them money. Might be why I find this stuff less objectionable, I remember buying 2 d&d 3rd edition rule books every month
This is not about new rules (this reply also relates to a few new comments up top). Things like new editions and entire new factions are not DLC, they're expansion packs. DlC is buying an entire starter box (like the orkmkill team) for a single page of rules. GW has always played catch up now for the past 10+ years looking at talented teams who figured it out before they did so it's not beyond reason to see a few marketing people go "My kid just asked for £300 to spend on Fortnight Skins! Why can't we do this!"
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Lol, this.
People remember webstore-exclusive super-formations and 15 Euro Warhammer Digital rules for Belakor, etc.. ?
If anything, GW seems to be going backwards on this. Not to mention they cut back a lot of FAQ release frequency, precisely because people complained about it.
Is it perfect? No, and they'll demand money for it as long as the market is willing to pay for it. But we've been at place far worse than this.
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Post by: lolman1c
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Lol, this.
People remember webstore-exclusive super-formations and 15 Euro Warhammer Digital rules for Belakor, etc.. ?
If anything, GW seems to be going backwards on this. Not to mention they cut back a lot of FAQ release frequency, precisely because people complained about it.
Is it perfect? No, and they'll demand money for it as long as the market is willing to pay for it. But we've been at place far worse than this.
I did hear 5hough that the marketing department has basically taken over the entire 40k dev team like genestealers (trying to find the source of where i heard that at the moment) so maybe it will get worse again. I think we should keep an eye out for it and keep tabs on gw.
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Post by: ValentineGames
Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
oni wrote:The DLC model is exactly why I'm avoiding AoS 2nd ed.
Here's a check list of items before you even start accumulating models for the army:
1. Core book
2. Malign sorcery box
3. Generals handbook
4. Faction Battletome
5. Faction specific eternal spells
Apparently that big game I played last weekend using ... none of these was all a dream, then? Those things are all items you can add after you start playing (with the possible exception of the Core book and General's handbook if you want to get into competitive play straight away.
Mind you, this has been a thing since D&D came out. For example, with Warhammer, in 3rd edition, you could work out points using the lists of points values for creatures and equipment in the rulebook, but you'd really want Warhammer Armies - a separate book that covered all the army lists (so unlike a Codex or Battletome now, most players would only need about a tenth of the content  ) D&D sells the core rules, the bestiary and expanded rules separately; compartmentalisation to save some players money, or a cash grab? you choose.
Sometimes expansions are forced by the practicalities of production - additional material that couldn't be completed in time for printing deadlines or because there was too much material for the page count but not enough for the next page count up, so it's held back until there's enough for a separate book.
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Post by: phillv85
ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
The problem is that people are complaining now about too many updates. The reason we have them is because people were bitching endlessly about lack of updates. Sure there's probably a better middle ground, but people just love to complain.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
phillv85 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
The problem is that people are complaining now about too many updates. The reason we have them is because people were bitching endlessly about lack of updates. Sure there's probably a better middle ground, but people just love to complain.
Isn't the main problem more along the line that the CA is basically a necessary balance update and errata/ faq in one go but they try to nickel and dime us for it?
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Post by: Karol
phillv85 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
The problem is that people are complaining now about too many updates. The reason we have them is because people were bitching endlessly about lack of updates. Sure there's probably a better middle ground, but people just love to complain.
Well cutting an update in to two half and puting a price tag on it as a full product, is not something people consider more updates. If GW suddenly cut up my codex in to 4 parts according with all the chambers GK have it wouldn't suddenly mean four times as much content. And cutting a rule book required to play in to 3-4 books is not very player friendly. It has to do wonders to how sales rise. From what I have seen to start AoS you need 4 books right now, and if your already someone who played in the older editions, you have to buy only 3 books.
Isn't the main problem more along the line that the CA is basically a necessary balance update and errata/faq in one go but they try to nickel and dime us for it?
this is EA tier stuff, making you pay for a patch update 
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Karol wrote:phillv85 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
The problem is that people are complaining now about too many updates. The reason we have them is because people were bitching endlessly about lack of updates. Sure there's probably a better middle ground, but people just love to complain.
Well cutting an update in to two half and puting a price tag on it as a full product, is not something people consider more updates. If GW suddenly cut up my codex in to 4 parts according with all the chambers GK have it wouldn't suddenly mean four times as much content. And cutting a rule book required to play in to 3-4 books is not very player friendly. It has to do wonders to how sales rise. From what I have seen to start AoS you need 4 books right now, and if your already someone who played in the older editions, you have to buy only 3 books.
Isn't the main problem more along the line that the CA is basically a necessary balance update and errata/faq in one go but they try to nickel and dime us for it?
this is EA tier stuff, making you pay for a patch update
No, the real EA tier stuff are the new models. Remember the introduction of flyers? The Hydra/ Wyvern? Helldrake?
Seriously though, new GW releases tend to be better then what allready exists in an army. (except mutilators, they just suck, period, not once have i seen a good mutilator. Or a good looking one.)
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Post by: Eldarsif
I think the eventual endgame is that there will be an app access where you buy either the packs(DNDBeyond) or a subscription model. Considering that's where the industry is slowly going to I think it's not that far away.
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Post by: Karol
Won't just people pirate the books then, if there are no real physical rules. No way for the opposing player or a store owner/ TO to check if your digital stuff is legit or no. Unless of course EU suddenly changes the privacy laws.
No, the real EA tier stuff are the new models. Remember the introduction of flyers? The Hydra/ Wyvern? Helldrake?
No, I started 2 months ago.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Karol wrote:Won't just people pirate the books then, if there are no real physical rules. No way for the opposing player or a store owner/ TO to check if your digital stuff is legit or no. Unless of course EU suddenly changes the privacy laws.
No, the real EA tier stuff are the new models. Remember the introduction of flyers? The Hydra/ Wyvern? Helldrake?
No, I started 2 months ago.
Well, let's just say that is a theme. Either to boost the initial sales of new models or just because their balance/ rule team is bad.
Probably a combination of both, frankly their rules team is to put it mildly, not up on par with what should and could be expected.
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Post by: phillv85
Karol wrote:phillv85 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
The problem is that people are complaining now about too many updates. The reason we have them is because people were bitching endlessly about lack of updates. Sure there's probably a better middle ground, but people just love to complain.
Well cutting an update in to two half and puting a price tag on it as a full product, is not something people consider more updates. If GW suddenly cut up my codex in to 4 parts according with all the chambers GK have it wouldn't suddenly mean four times as much content. And cutting a rule book required to play in to 3-4 books is not very player friendly. It has to do wonders to how sales rise. From what I have seen to start AoS you need 4 books right now, and if your already someone who played in the older editions, you have to buy only 3 books.
Isn't the main problem more along the line that the CA is basically a necessary balance update and errata/faq in one go but they try to nickel and dime us for it?
this is EA tier stuff, making you pay for a patch update
I'm not saying anything about the amount of content that goes into each release. People wanted more frequent updates, and GW to address broken aspects of the game. How often should they do it? Whatever they do, some aspect of the community won't be pleased. I mean Christ, their March FAQ got put back a few weeks and some of the people on here were acting like the sky was falling down. Now the other side is saying they aren't happy with new content every six months. No the game isn't balanced, and in theory if they just "got it right" they wouldn't need to do this, but they'll never make the perfect game in the eyes of everyone.
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Post by: vonjankmon
 Peregrine wrote:
The problem is that the fluff is inherently tied to those electronic formats. If you're just reading the fluff at home, without buying miniatures and playing games, you can easily pirate a copy of the fluff book. 3d printing, on the other hand, is much farther away from being a threat. Current consumer-level printers aren't anywhere near capable of duplicating real models, and that is not likely to change in the near future. GW's best strategy is to use the easily-pirated stuff as marketing material and make their money on the miniatures that people have to buy.
Check out the Anycubic Photon, it is a SLA 3D printer that costs about $500 and prints minis that can be better quality than GWs molded models for about $1 a model. 3D printing if officially a threat, right now. I just printed a Zone Mortalis equivalent off of Thingiverse for about 1/3 the cost that ForgeWorld charges on a traditional FDM 3D printer and it looks fantastic.
More on topic the DLC model is a bit dangerous IMO. I am a massive, I mean massive Necromunda fan but I have not picked up the new game because of the piece meal release. I wanted a complete rule set from the start. By the time they finally release it all, I will be buying over$100 in just rules and honestly I am not sure whether I will be able to swallow that pill. I have no problem with expansions but it needs to feel like it is an expansion and not just core game rules split up.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Not Online!!! wrote:Karol wrote:Won't just people pirate the books then, if there are no real physical rules. No way for the opposing player or a store owner/ TO to check if your digital stuff is legit or no. Unless of course EU suddenly changes the privacy laws.
No, the real EA tier stuff are the new models. Remember the introduction of flyers? The Hydra/ Wyvern? Helldrake?
No, I started 2 months ago.
Well, let's just say that is a theme. Either to boost the initial sales of new models or just because their balance/ rule team is bad.
Probably a combination of both, frankly their rules team is to put it mildly, not up on par with what should and could be expected.
That may have been the case once upon a time, (I seem to recall hearing that back around 4th or 5th edition that was indeed their policy) but thats no longer the case and hasn't been for sometime. Let's look at the new releases since 6th edition hit shall we? Yes SOME of the new releases swiftly became the new hotness, such as Centurions and Wulfen, on the other hand, there where a lot of things that wheren't that great. you didn't see people rushing out to buy Tauroxes, and I'm not sure I've EVER seen any of the Space Marine AA tanks.
as for the new rules etc coming out, man you guys would have had a heart attack playing battletech when I started playing THAT, the field manual series, of multiple sourcebooks with close to a hundred pages each, each with maybe a page of rules. Man the 40k player base woulda HATED that apparently
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Post by: the_scotsman
Not Online!!! wrote:Karol wrote:phillv85 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
The problem is that people are complaining now about too many updates. The reason we have them is because people were bitching endlessly about lack of updates. Sure there's probably a better middle ground, but people just love to complain.
Well cutting an update in to two half and puting a price tag on it as a full product, is not something people consider more updates. If GW suddenly cut up my codex in to 4 parts according with all the chambers GK have it wouldn't suddenly mean four times as much content. And cutting a rule book required to play in to 3-4 books is not very player friendly. It has to do wonders to how sales rise. From what I have seen to start AoS you need 4 books right now, and if your already someone who played in the older editions, you have to buy only 3 books.
Isn't the main problem more along the line that the CA is basically a necessary balance update and errata/faq in one go but they try to nickel and dime us for it?
this is EA tier stuff, making you pay for a patch update
No, the real EA tier stuff are the new models. Remember the introduction of flyers? The Hydra/ Wyvern? Helldrake?
Seriously though, new GW releases tend to be better then what allready exists in an army. (except mutilators, they just suck, period, not once have i seen a good mutilator. Or a good looking one.)
Well, except for bullgryns and scions and tauroxes, those were hot garbage on release. Wait, hang on, only one thing in that release was good, and even then it was only half the kit? That doesn't fit the " gw releases new stuffs to be OP and make you buy" narrative...
Hmm...and after that, there was the Orkanaut/Meganob/Big Mek with SAG/Mek Gun/Flash Git release, of which only one kit was even remotely playable.
Eldar release with the Windriders, those were obviously busted to be sure.
New admech - sure, they have dunecrawlers and Kastelans, but they also have Kataphrons, electropriests, Balistarii and Sicarians. Nuff said.
And then after that Harlequins, who were released as the worst army in the game. Odd.
New assault marines, tactical marines, and devs, all still pretty terrible. Devs are OK, but everything basically unchanged.
New Tau Breachers, everyone knows how busted THOSE are. Haven't checked up on Ghostkeels and Stormsurges in a while but I'm not seeing them in any competitive lists.
New Deathwatch, remember how broken Deathwatch was? Oh yeah, no they sucked. Do you remember the amazing formation we got with the DW:O box - 450 points of space marines with one bike, one melta gunner, one assault marine, one terminator, all just shlepping around the field with bizarre ass wargear getting basically no rules?
I could keep going here through the new rubric kits, primaris marines, etc, but I think you get the point. Less than half of the new rules GW puts out are even PLAYABLE, let alone broken. You just remember the Magnuses and forget about the rubrics, scarab occults, and exalted sorcerors.
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Post by: Karol
BrianDavion wrote:
That may have been the case once upon a time, (I seem to recall hearing that back around 4th or 5th edition that was indeed their policy) but thats no longer the case and hasn't been for sometime. Let's look at the new releases since 6th edition hit shall we? Yes SOME of the new releases swiftly became the new hotness, such as Centurions and Wulfen, on the other hand, there where a lot of things that wheren't that great. you didn't see people rushing out to buy Tauroxes, and I'm not sure I've EVER seen any of the Space Marine AA tanks.
as for the new rules etc coming out, man you guys would have had a heart attack playing battletech when I started playing THAT, the field manual series, of multiple sourcebooks with close to a hundred pages each, each with maybe a page of rules. Man the 40k player base woulda HATED that apparently
Isn't battle tech played with like 4-12 models, so even if you needed 3 books and each of those books cost something crazy like a 100$ each, it would still come up less then half what a w40k army costs without any books.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
the_scotsman wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Karol wrote:phillv85 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
The problem is that people are complaining now about too many updates. The reason we have them is because people were bitching endlessly about lack of updates. Sure there's probably a better middle ground, but people just love to complain.
Well cutting an update in to two half and puting a price tag on it as a full product, is not something people consider more updates. If GW suddenly cut up my codex in to 4 parts according with all the chambers GK have it wouldn't suddenly mean four times as much content. And cutting a rule book required to play in to 3-4 books is not very player friendly. It has to do wonders to how sales rise. From what I have seen to start AoS you need 4 books right now, and if your already someone who played in the older editions, you have to buy only 3 books.
Isn't the main problem more along the line that the CA is basically a necessary balance update and errata/faq in one go but they try to nickel and dime us for it?
this is EA tier stuff, making you pay for a patch update
No, the real EA tier stuff are the new models. Remember the introduction of flyers? The Hydra/ Wyvern? Helldrake?
Seriously though, new GW releases tend to be better then what allready exists in an army. (except mutilators, they just suck, period, not once have i seen a good mutilator. Or a good looking one.)
Well, except for bullgryns and scions and tauroxes, those were hot garbage on release. Wait, hang on, only one thing in that release was good, and even then it was only half the kit? That doesn't fit the " gw releases new stuffs to be OP and make you buy" narrative...
Hmm...and after that, there was the Orkanaut/Meganob/Big Mek with SAG/Mek Gun/Flash Git release, of which only one kit was even remotely playable.
Eldar release with the Windriders, those were obviously busted to be sure.
New admech - sure, they have dunecrawlers and Kastelans, but they also have Kataphrons, electropriests, Balistarii and Sicarians. Nuff said.
And then after that Harlequins, who were released as the worst army in the game. Odd.
New assault marines, tactical marines, and devs, all still pretty terrible. Devs are OK, but everything basically unchanged.
New Tau Breachers, everyone knows how busted THOSE are. Haven't checked up on Ghostkeels and Stormsurges in a while but I'm not seeing them in any competitive lists.
New Deathwatch, remember how broken Deathwatch was? Oh yeah, no they sucked. Do you remember the amazing formation we got with the DW:O box - 450 points of space marines with one bike, one melta gunner, one assault marine, one terminator, all just shlepping around the field with bizarre ass wargear getting basically no rules?
I could keep going here through the new rubric kits, primaris marines, etc, but I think you get the point. Less than half of the new rules GW puts out are even PLAYABLE, let alone broken. You just remember the Magnuses and forget about the rubrics, scarab occults, and exalted sorcerors.
Guess so, still sometimes their balancing is off.
Frankly Magnus and crew are all under the new LOW group, just like flyers were, insofar one could come to the conclusion that such new units do get a boost if they fall under a new hot and shiny category.
That said, most of the Codex / Index entries anyways are not good or justifyable beyond casual games/narratives/ fluffy matches.
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Post by: lolman1c
I found a link to the article form 2015 that says how Rick Priestley ( Warhammer’s co-creator) is upset the marketing team took over and is destroying it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160224222853/http://unpluggedgames.co.uk/features/blood-dice-and-darkness-how-warhammer-defined-gaming-for-a-generation/
“The studio, the creative part of Games Workshop, had always been kept apart from the sales part of it. One thing Bryan said was that if the sales people got to be in charge of the studio, it would destroy the studio, and that’s exactly what happened.”
interesting read and could probably do with a thread in itself.
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Post by: Karol
So maybe it is that when GW makes a new type of unit, aka a flyer, primarch etc and those units didn't exist before they get powerful rules.
From what I have been told, centurions were very powerful when they came out, and unplayable now. Same happened to eldar knights, wulfen, wolf cavalery etc
At the same time new units of models of already existing types are hit and miss. If they make units for eldar, which they seem to love, they get nice or good rules. When they make new stuff for infantry marines it can be everything ranging from a csm possessed to a sternguard.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Can be seen in the Games industry: If the publisher gains too much influence over the developper the market will dictate over the core game. In the end the game will suffer and die. Case in point C&C, EA, and the now dead developpers.
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Post by: hobojebus
Karol wrote:BrianDavion wrote:
That may have been the case once upon a time, (I seem to recall hearing that back around 4th or 5th edition that was indeed their policy) but thats no longer the case and hasn't been for sometime. Let's look at the new releases since 6th edition hit shall we? Yes SOME of the new releases swiftly became the new hotness, such as Centurions and Wulfen, on the other hand, there where a lot of things that wheren't that great. you didn't see people rushing out to buy Tauroxes, and I'm not sure I've EVER seen any of the Space Marine AA tanks.
as for the new rules etc coming out, man you guys would have had a heart attack playing battletech when I started playing THAT, the field manual series, of multiple sourcebooks with close to a hundred pages each, each with maybe a page of rules. Man the 40k player base woulda HATED that apparently
Isn't battle tech played with like 4-12 models, so even if you needed 3 books and each of those books cost something crazy like a 100$ each, it would still come up less then half what a w40k army costs without any books.
Classic is rarely more than 3 models, Alphastrike is 12 models plus.
Worth noting http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/761/crusader-crd-6m is a free source for unit data that's existed for years and covers hundreds of mechs across multiple time periods.
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Post by: X078
DLC is skirmish 101, look xwing etc, each wave comes with some nice small boxes with new or upgraded features.
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Post by: Karol
Not Online!!! wrote:
Can be seen in the Games industry: If the publisher gains too much influence over the developper the market will dictate over the core game. In the end the game will suffer and die. Case in point C&C, EA, and the now dead developpers.
So marines are GW FIFA 20XX?
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Post by: nekooni
lolman1c wrote:It might just be me but I've noticed recently that GW has taken a rule from the Video games worlds books and potentially started cutting up rules to sell later on as DLC content (obviously it's not DLC as you can't download it. It's more BLC like, buy later content. But there isn't enough content to be a full expansion). For example, I'm noticing a remarkable number of units missing from these kill team previews. Units that are plastic and you would obviously expect to be there (Orgyns and Bulgryns for example). The recent Tyranids preview shows it has nothing to do with their size (as tyranid warriors are there) so I'm predicting we will see DLC style content where we're given the option to buy the options that are missing. We are basically getting day one DLC (just like the video game industry) already as GW has decided to not sell every factions rules (the command abilities mainly I belive) in the core rule book and has opted to make them exclusive to the units starter packs.
So, I'm wondering what you guys think? Are they cutting out rules to sell later? Is there any evidence either way? Is this good or bad (the gamers in the digital industry are highly against most DLC now)? And does this mean we might finally get a DLC season pass where we get all the rules we want for a monthly fee?
Discuss below!
DLC isn't bad inherently. If your entire game is downloaded because noone goes to a brick and mortar store to get a DVD anymore, obviously any expansion will be "DLC" then. If it's €20 for a proper expansion release a year after launch, it's still "Downloadable Content" - but there's no reason to complain AT ALL.
gakky microtransactions such as Loot Boxes or hiding stuff that's part of the core game behind a pay wall (e.g. "Deluxe Edition" with an extra story arc that's super-important to the main storyline) or stuff that's literally in the files of the release version, but locked and only accessible with an extra €5 purchase - that's the bad stuff. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrianDavion wrote:as for the new rules etc coming out, man you guys would have had a heart attack playing battletech when I started playing THAT, the field manual series, of multiple sourcebooks with close to a hundred pages each, each with maybe a page of rules. Man the 40k player base woulda HATED that apparently
Why would you buy a BT source book if you were looking for rules, though? IIRC all you needed were: core rule book, hex maps, miniatures and (optional: matching) record sheets. There're tools to design your own maps and record sheets and just print them out, at least that's how it was back in ~2000. Even the game dying temporarily wasn't a real issue, which is why BT easily survived MWDA which was way more expensive to play since you HAD to get the miniature to play a specific unit, and IIRC the boxes were basically real-world loot boxes: Random content.
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Post by: Karol
True there is DLC that gives you 1/4th more of a game like witcher 3. I wouldn't mind GW making new something cool like an expansion for specific eldar craftworld or some cool new tau sept. It is the lets core rules cut in to 3 books type of design that makes me wonder about the new friendly GW. The old one had to be really horrible for the thing that is now to count as friendly
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Post by: Tyel
The problem is GW has to sell something.
The issue has always been that without obsolescence - and GW has the lowest level of obsolescence of almost any industry in the world - getting constant sales is a major challenge.
Yes they can hook people on plastic crack - but at some point people realise their 60,000 points worth of unmade up sprues indicate a problem.
GW can't stop you going on Ebay and buying some models that have been traded 5 times since they were first sold back in 2003. They can however force you to buy a modern update of the rules every couple of years.
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Post by: Pancakey
 vonjankmon wrote: Peregrine wrote:
More on topic the DLC model is a bit dangerous IMO. I am a massive, I mean massive Necromunda fan but I have not picked up the new game because of the piece meal release. I wanted a complete rule set from the start. By the time they finally release it all, I will be buying over$100 in just rules and honestly I am not sure whether I will be able to swallow that pill. I have no problem with expansions but it needs to feel like it is an expansion and not just core game rules split up.
Exactly my feelings. GW are skinning their customers daily.
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Post by: nekooni
Pancakey wrote: vonjankmon wrote: Peregrine wrote:
More on topic the DLC model is a bit dangerous IMO. I am a massive, I mean massive Necromunda fan but I have not picked up the new game because of the piece meal release. I wanted a complete rule set from the start. By the time they finally release it all, I will be buying over$100 in just rules and honestly I am not sure whether I will be able to swallow that pill. I have no problem with expansions but it needs to feel like it is an expansion and not just core game rules split up.
Exactly my feelings. GW are skinning their customers daily.
Honestly, what's the alternative? Have them have 1 release a year for €400 where everything they've developed over the last year is included?
And Gang Wars 1/2 - to an outsider like me - seem to be exactly what you're asking for - expansions. They introduce new terrain, campaign rules and new gangs, from what I can tell. What would you want them to contain instead?
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Post by: lolman1c
nekooni wrote:Pancakey wrote: vonjankmon wrote: Peregrine wrote:
More on topic the DLC model is a bit dangerous IMO. I am a massive, I mean massive Necromunda fan but I have not picked up the new game because of the piece meal release. I wanted a complete rule set from the start. By the time they finally release it all, I will be buying over$100 in just rules and honestly I am not sure whether I will be able to swallow that pill. I have no problem with expansions but it needs to feel like it is an expansion and not just core game rules split up.
Exactly my feelings. GW are skinning their customers daily.
Honestly, what's the alternative? Have them have 1 release a year for €400 where everything they've developed over the last year is included?
And Gang Wars 1/2 - to an outsider like me - seem to be exactly what you're asking for - expansions. They introduce new terrain, campaign rules and new gangs, from what I can tell. What would you want them to contain instead?
1. Rules need to be all in 1 place. No more splitting up different crap in different boxes you can only get by buying those boxes (we had this in 7th and it got really confusing).
2. Stop charging us for updates. Nobody here is saying we want less updates we just do not want to pay for them anymore especially after last CA was an absolute rip off I did not even buy!
3. Bring out different gangs and stuff is fine. They're expansion packs to some extrent.. as for the whole €400 arguement this would be like saying gw is forcing people to buy every 40k faction at once.... we don't want them to put all the gangs together but all the gangs rules in one book would be nice. We know they can do this as they've done it eith old codecies and the indexes and even this new kill team.
4. And i don't want them to bring out a clearly inferior game just so they can charge us later to fix it with better rules! Which seems like they're doing that as the better updates come out rather fast compared to the old gw where it took 5 years for new rules so it always seemed like they worked hard on it.
Not all of this is my opinions but it's what people seem to be misunderstanding when it comes to people posting stuff... they seem to just ignkre what they're saying and make up some stupid thing like "you just want really expensive games with no updates " when nobody has even siad that here!
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Post by: nekooni
lolman1c wrote:nekooni wrote:Pancakey wrote: vonjankmon wrote: Peregrine wrote:
More on topic the DLC model is a bit dangerous IMO. I am a massive, I mean massive Necromunda fan but I have not picked up the new game because of the piece meal release. I wanted a complete rule set from the start. By the time they finally release it all, I will be buying over$100 in just rules and honestly I am not sure whether I will be able to swallow that pill. I have no problem with expansions but it needs to feel like it is an expansion and not just core game rules split up.
Exactly my feelings. GW are skinning their customers daily.
Honestly, what's the alternative? Have them have 1 release a year for €400 where everything they've developed over the last year is included?
And Gang Wars 1/2 - to an outsider like me - seem to be exactly what you're asking for - expansions. They introduce new terrain, campaign rules and new gangs, from what I can tell. What would you want them to contain instead?
1. Rules need to be all in 1 place. No more splitting up different crap in different boxes you can only get by buying those boxes (we had this in 7th and it got really confusing).
2. Stop charging us for updates. Nobody here is saying we want less updates we just do not want to pay for them anymore especially after last CA was an absolute rip off I did not even buy!
3. Bring out different gangs and stuff is fine. They're expansion packs to some extrent.. as for the whole €400 arguement this would be like saying gw is forcing people to buy every 40k faction at once.... we don't want them to put all the gangs together but all the gangs rules in one book would be nice. We know they can do this as they've done it eith old codecies and the indexes and even this new kill team.
4. And i don't want them to bring out a clearly inferior game just so they can charge us later to fix it with better rules! Which seems like they're doing that as the better updates come out rather fast compared to the old gw where it took 5 years for new rules so it always seemed like they worked hard on it.
Not all of this is my opinions but it's what people seem to be misunderstanding when it comes to people posting stuff... they seem to just ignkre what they're saying and make up some stupid thing like "you just want really expensive games with no updates " when nobody has even siad that here!
1. The core rules are, aren't they? At least for 40k, AoS and - from what I can tell: Necromunda. If you disagree on that, could you give me an example of something you'd consider a core rule?
2. CA is, to me, an expansion that adds a lot of new missions and advanced rules that expand the existing game (e.g. Land Raider construction rules, Apocalypse rules, advanced Terrain rules like Warzones). Just based on that it's a good expansion book. If only they had NOT included the updated points, but instead released those as errata to the existing books. Not doing that was a really bad and nothing more than a money grab / attempt to push CA on everyone, even if they were not interested in the new stuff inside.
3. I was refering to the game in general. Sure, they can cook up an Index, but
a) it was still multiple books just to have the pure rules available at the start of 8th ,
b) these books lacked ALL of the flavour of 40k. They were simple gaming aids, nothing more.
c) they didn't even include all of the rules - all the <Subfaction> stuff, all the Relics, Warlord traits and so on was missing
d) people were still complaining that "I have to buy both Imperium 1 and 2 to field my army",
e) while others were complaining "I play just this Faction, why do I have to pay for all the others in the Index, too?"
40k has always had a ton of fluff. Yes, they COULD split it up into a fluff book and a crunch book like they do with AoS. I don't have an argument against it, to be honest. It's probably a money thing, because many people won't want to pay for both, which - in the long run - would mean the fluff books will I) increase in price or II) get cancelled.
4. I assume you're refering to CA again here? I agree - having updated point values in that book was a mistake, those should have been free. But the rules of 40k are decently solid, and issues with them are fixed via free FAQ and errata.
Granted, 400€ was a bit much, I was over-exaggerating - I didn't mean to include models in that bundle. Let's say 100€ for the core rules that took a year longer to release, but now include all the rules they'd have released in smaller books instead, for let's say 50+30+30€. Everyone would have to get e.g. the Sector Mechanicum rules, even if they never planned on playing there, because they're in the core rule book, and therefore everyone has to pay for them. Yes, people that wanted ALL the rules would save 10€ in exchange for not having the game a year earlier. Anyone that DIDN'T want the expansions would be paying extra on top of having the game a year later that necessary.
And I'm sorry, but the quote I was replying to literally said "I wanted a complete rule set from the start.", "I have not picked up the new game because of the piece meal release". That's literally "I want ONE purchase, no changes, stop selling things separately". I'm rather sure that you can play Necromunda just fine with the base game. If you want to have campaign rules, grab GW1. If you want another faction, grab the correct GW issue. If you want to play Necromunda in different locations, grab the correct GW issue.
I don't think Necromunda is the best way to sell a board game, but it's also how GW manages their other games. KT has all the faction rules in the core rule book. Terrain rules come with the terrain. Special faction stuff comes with the Faction models (although I'm not sure if these rules are already printed in the Core rules, too - like e.g. the Stratagem Cards for 40k are for convenience and you could play without them by using the codex where they're all listed anyway).
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Post by: BrianDavion
hobojebus wrote:Karol wrote:BrianDavion wrote:
That may have been the case once upon a time, (I seem to recall hearing that back around 4th or 5th edition that was indeed their policy) but thats no longer the case and hasn't been for sometime. Let's look at the new releases since 6th edition hit shall we? Yes SOME of the new releases swiftly became the new hotness, such as Centurions and Wulfen, on the other hand, there where a lot of things that wheren't that great. you didn't see people rushing out to buy Tauroxes, and I'm not sure I've EVER seen any of the Space Marine AA tanks.
as for the new rules etc coming out, man you guys would have had a heart attack playing battletech when I started playing THAT, the field manual series, of multiple sourcebooks with close to a hundred pages each, each with maybe a page of rules. Man the 40k player base woulda HATED that apparently
Isn't battle tech played with like 4-12 models, so even if you needed 3 books and each of those books cost something crazy like a 100$ each, it would still come up less then half what a w40k army costs without any books.
Classic is rarely more than 3 models, Alphastrike is 12 models plus.
Worth noting http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/761/crusader-crd-6m is a free source for unit data that's existed for years and covers hundreds of mechs across multiple time periods.
actually your typical classic battle is 4 v 4, a lance vs a lance . that said, Battletech gamers also represent a differant culture.
The game is MUCH less mini focused, yes some people do minis etc and I've known people with an entire regiment of battlemechs, but people's priorities for the game are differant. and TBH I've always kind of suspected the culture is more in line with what GW WISHES 40ks culture could be. where the focus and love is on the story, and people will gladly pay for a book thats 100 pages of fluff and maybe 1 page of rules. things like the codex supplements are the norm for that game. not the exception.
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Post by: Peregrine
vonjankmon wrote:Check out the Anycubic Photon, it is a SLA 3D printer that costs about $500 and prints minis that can be better quality than GWs molded models for about $1 a model. 3D printing if officially a threat, right now. I just printed a Zone Mortalis equivalent off of Thingiverse for about 1/3 the cost that ForgeWorld charges on a traditional FDM 3D printer and it looks fantastic.
It looks ok. Detail seems pretty good, though the claimed resolution isn't sufficient to remove all print lines and equal a proper model kit. The issue is that you make up for that lower price with a massive amount of work and dealing with toxic chemicals. You aren't just pressing a button and taking a finished miniature out. It's not quite as bad as sculpting your own from scratch, but it's way more work than most people are going to want to invest. And that's on top of the $500+ setup cost, which can buy a lot of model kits. Only the most dedicated hobbyists who love 3d printing for the sake of 3d printing are going to be interested in it, which means physical kit sales are still a better source of revenue for GW than rulebooks that anyone with a PC can pirate in a few minutes.
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Post by: Daedalus81
ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
Necromunda is new gangs and their rules. When they're done they're done.
Chapter Approved is level setting rules on a yearly basis. You know - the gak PEOPLE ASKED FOR.
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Post by: ValentineGames
 Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
Necromunda is new gangs and their rules. When they're done they're done.
Chapter Approved is level setting rules on a yearly basis. You know - the gak PEOPLE ASKED FOR.
No. Necromunda is new gang. 3D rules. And equipment lists spread out so you need all the books to buy anything...and still miss a ton of stuff...and still need White Dwarf...and GW downloads...and FW downloads...
And yes people I'm sure asked for updates...how many asked to pay for these mandatory updates?...which should be free.
You pay £50 for a rulebook and £20-40 each year to play.
It's a GW live account.
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
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Post by: nekooni
CA added a ton of new content. And a few pages that should have been for free on their website, containing the point changes.
Its not perfect, yes, but it has value and to me that value was worth the money. Not having the option to just get the point changes for free sucks though, I agree
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Post by: vonjankmon
I guess I should have been a bit more clear in my statement about wanting a complete rule set. If I buy the Necromunda starter set, I can play. 2D game with two factions. If it were a totally stand alone game it would be a joke and something very few board gamers would bother with, let alone miniature gamers. To get the campaign system, 3D rules, and a third faction I have to buy another book. And on top of all that I still don’t think I can buy the Necromunda rule book by itself.
I can sort of deal with the new book for each faction but it’s riding an edge for me a bit that I have to shell out $25 for rules for a single gang. In Shadespire, I get the rules, models, and cards for not much more than that. ( I won’t even compare the value to other game company offering)
And Peregine, just because you think it is to much effort and cost does not mean everyone else agrees. The Facebook group for the AnyCubic is blowing up and a lot of the gaming community that has been involved in 3D printing are picking them up for miniatures in large numbers now. And a good print on the AnyCubic after being primed will be indistinguishable from a high quality molded mini, I am speaking from first hand in person experience here.
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Post by: nekooni
OK, the 3D rules are a major point that should be core to the game, I fully agree.
Necromunda seems to be very different from the other systems then, sorry to hear that :(
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Post by: Daedalus81
ValentineGames wrote:
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
Oh, I guess you're right. We can't all be level headed geniuses like yourself. You should write a book or something about these injustices.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
Reemule wrote:I think a better question is how long is GW going to charge for rules? So many other games have go to downloaded for free rules, and living rulebooks, and such.
I’d prefer that system. I don’t feel GW puts out such high quality rules I want to spend money on them. I also feel like I just want the rules, Not sure I want to spend money to subsidise the art industry that GW has.
Yeah they can make free pdf's and sell codex's to people that want to buy them and a lot will if you consider the amount of limited editions they sell, its just GW being their greedy selves, they hinted at free rules but change their mind.
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Post by: BrianDavion
ValentineGames wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
Necromunda is new gangs and their rules. When they're done they're done.
Chapter Approved is level setting rules on a yearly basis. You know - the gak PEOPLE ASKED FOR.
No. Necromunda is new gang. 3D rules. And equipment lists spread out so you need all the books to buy anything...and still miss a ton of stuff...and still need White Dwarf...and GW downloads...and FW downloads...
And yes people I'm sure asked for updates...how many asked to pay for these mandatory updates?...which should be free.
You pay £50 for a rulebook and £20-40 each year to play.
It's a GW live account.
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
when the general's handbook came out, the voer whelming response from 40k players was "we'd love something like this" course now that we have it people are complaining about it.
A codex isn't expensive at all, (chapter approved is even less) when you compare the price to what you pay for a 40k mini. a codex is what, the cost of a box of tac marines?
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
BrianDavion wrote:ValentineGames wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
Necromunda is new gangs and their rules. When they're done they're done.
Chapter Approved is level setting rules on a yearly basis. You know - the gak PEOPLE ASKED FOR.
No. Necromunda is new gang. 3D rules. And equipment lists spread out so you need all the books to buy anything...and still miss a ton of stuff...and still need White Dwarf...and GW downloads...and FW downloads...
And yes people I'm sure asked for updates...how many asked to pay for these mandatory updates?...which should be free.
You pay £50 for a rulebook and £20-40 each year to play.
It's a GW live account.
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
when the general's handbook came out, the voer whelming response from 40k players was "we'd love something like this" course now that we have it people are complaining about it.
A codex isn't expensive at all, (chapter approved is even less) when you compare the price to what you pay for a 40k mini. a codex is what, the cost of a box of tac marines?
Codex's are blooming expensive, especially for what they are and especially for people like me that collect every faction apart from Tau and Dark Eldar, and 8 Imperial armies.
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Post by: ValentineGames
Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
Oh, I guess you're right. We can't all be level headed geniuses like yourself. You should write a book or something about these injustices.
It does take a special person to be ok with buying 2 chapter approved books a year (so £40 a year) just to be allowed to keep playing because of new rules and pts changes that should of been right the first time with playtesting (what a joke) or as a free PDF.
I know no other wargame that charges you a £40 season pass to play with toys.
And I know no other fanbase who would willingly bend over and take it with a smile.
BrianDavion wrote:
A codex isn't expensive at all, (chapter approved is even less) when you compare the price to what you pay for a 40k mini. a codex is what, the cost of a box of tac marines?
That's a pretty poor example when a box of tactical marines has no value for money at all...
You're saying a book is just as good value as 10 models for £22.50...
When in comparison I can get 60 for £22.50 and play black powder which I never need mandatory books to use...
That's value for money.
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Post by: BrianDavion
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:BrianDavion wrote:ValentineGames wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Necromunda is a perfect example of "DLC".
Chapter approved for 8th is too.
GW are the EA of wargaming. Milk that cash cow!
Necromunda is new gangs and their rules. When they're done they're done.
Chapter Approved is level setting rules on a yearly basis. You know - the gak PEOPLE ASKED FOR.
No. Necromunda is new gang. 3D rules. And equipment lists spread out so you need all the books to buy anything...and still miss a ton of stuff...and still need White Dwarf...and GW downloads...and FW downloads...
And yes people I'm sure asked for updates...how many asked to pay for these mandatory updates?...which should be free.
You pay £50 for a rulebook and £20-40 each year to play.
It's a GW live account.
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
when the general's handbook came out, the voer whelming response from 40k players was "we'd love something like this" course now that we have it people are complaining about it.
A codex isn't expensive at all, (chapter approved is even less) when you compare the price to what you pay for a 40k mini. a codex is what, the cost of a box of tac marines?
Codex's are blooming expensive, especially for what they are and especially for people like me that collect every faction apart from Tau and Dark Eldar, and 8 Imperial armies.
50 dollars (Canadian) is "blooming expensive" is it? for a hard cover full colour 100+ page book? No it's not. Thats actually pretty cheap. remember a codex isn't just a rules book. Codex Space Marines is a 208 page book, the rules start at page 130. pages 3-129? fluff, lore, background knowledge call it what you will. but i makes up a good half of the book. Someone's got to write that. And that someone has to get paid.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
ValentineGames wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
Oh, I guess you're right. We can't all be level headed geniuses like yourself. You should write a book or something about these injustices.
It does take a special person to be ok with buying 2 chapter approved books a year (so £40 a year) just to be allowed to keep playing because of new rules and pts changes that should of been right the first time with playtesting (what a joke) or as a free PDF.
I know no other wargame that charges you a £40 season pass to play with toys.
And I know no other fanbase who would willingly bend over and take it with a smile.
BrianDavion wrote:
A codex isn't expensive at all, (chapter approved is even less) when you compare the price to what you pay for a 40k mini. a codex is what, the cost of a box of tac marines?
That's a pretty poor example when a box of tactical marines has no value for money at all...
You're saying a book is just as good value as 10 models for £22.50...
When in comparison I can get 60 for £22.50 and play black powder which I never need mandatory books to use...
That's value for money.
Yeah codex's are old concepts, no one wants them anymore, all we want are the rules, I don't care about the nice shiny pictures and the lore that never really changes in any significant way, and its always a summery of the lore, you can learn more just on the internet for free. I hinestly do not know why people buy the limited editions, If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't buy them.
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Post by: phillv85
I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans. 
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Post by: ValentineGames
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah codex's are old concepts, no one wants them anymore, all we want are the rules, I don't care about the nice shiny pictures and the lore that never really changes in any significant way, and its always a summery of the lore, you can learn more just on the internet for free. I hinestly do not know why people buy the limited editions, If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't buy them.
At this point you're just blabbering pointlessly.
I said nothing about a codex or limited editions.
A comparison was made to a tactical squad. Stop chatting gak.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
Oh, I guess you're right. We can't all be level headed geniuses like yourself. You should write a book or something about these injustices.
It does take a special person to be ok with buying 2 chapter approved books a year (so £40 a year) just to be allowed to keep playing because of new rules and pts changes that should of been right the first time with playtesting (what a joke) or as a free PDF.
I know no other wargame that charges you a £40 season pass to play with toys.
And I know no other fanbase who would willingly bend over and take it with a smile.
BrianDavion wrote:
A codex isn't expensive at all, (chapter approved is even less) when you compare the price to what you pay for a 40k mini. a codex is what, the cost of a box of tac marines?
That's a pretty poor example when a box of tactical marines has no value for money at all...
You're saying a book is just as good value as 10 models for £22.50...
When in comparison I can get 60 for £22.50 and play black powder which I never need mandatory books to use...
That's value for money.
Yeah codex's are old concepts, no one wants them anymore, all we want are the rules, I don't care about the nice shiny pictures and the lore that never really changes in any significant way, and its always a summery of the lore, you can learn more just on the internet for free. I hinestly do not know why people buy the limited editions, If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't buy them.
except people obviously do want them. And some people even happily buy the special editions. if all you want are the rules just use the bloody index and use the internet for the 5 or so pages of additional rules the codex would give you. quit trying to pretend you speak for "everyone" you don't. you've got a nasty habbit of spewing your opinion as if it was fact Delvarus.
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Post by: phillv85
Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans.
Yes I am. People wanted updates regularly, GW provides for a nominal fee. GW have seen their chance to monetize updates by providing them in print along with other extra content people are conveniently forgetting about when they want a whine. I'm not saying it's the optimal system, but my word people, keep your toys in the pram for once.
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Post by: BrianDavion
phillv85 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans.
Yes I am. People wanted updates regularly, GW provides for a nominal fee. GW have seen their chance to monetize updates by providing them in print along with other extra content people are conveniently forgetting about when they want a whine. I'm not saying it's the optimal system, but my word people, keep your toys in the pram for once.
I swear GW could send hookers to these peoples doors and they'd complain about the colour of her hair.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
phillv85 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans.
Yes I am. People wanted updates regularly, GW provides for a nominal fee. GW have seen their chance to monetize updates by providing them in print along with other extra content people are conveniently forgetting about when they want a whine. I'm not saying it's the optimal system, but my word people, keep your toys in the pram for once.
A) I never said i was fine with their other contents monetization system, frankly if they would've not the makret power and the lore they would not be able to pull their Rulebook+Index+Codex+ CA system.
B) There is not an inherent problem with providing balanced rules for free for a game, even updated.Infact this is one of the things mentioned most often at the FLGS why people were and are hesitant to start 40k.
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Post by: Blastaar
BrianDavion wrote:phillv85 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans.
Yes I am. People wanted updates regularly, GW provides for a nominal fee. GW have seen their chance to monetize updates by providing them in print along with other extra content people are conveniently forgetting about when they want a whine. I'm not saying it's the optimal system, but my word people, keep your toys in the pram for once.
I swear GW could send hookers to these peoples doors and they'd complain about the colour of her hair.
Right, because it's great for the players to pay a balance fee every six months. That is what Chapter Approved is. A surcharge for the less-unbalanced version of Warhammer 40,000. The extra content is only there as an attempt to justify charging for balance. I think nearly everyone agrees that the points changes should be free. That is the issue. And dismissing criticism with "people will never be happy with anything GW could hypothetically do, they just want to complain" shows you don't have much of an argument.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
ValentineGames wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah codex's are old concepts, no one wants them anymore, all we want are the rules, I don't care about the nice shiny pictures and the lore that never really changes in any significant way, and its always a summery of the lore, you can learn more just on the internet for free. I hinestly do not know why people buy the limited editions, If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't buy them.
At this point you're just blabbering pointlessly.
I said nothing about a codex or limited editions.
A comparison was made to a tactical squad. Stop chatting gak.
I wasn't even talking to you.
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Post by: phillv85
Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans.
Yes I am. People wanted updates regularly, GW provides for a nominal fee. GW have seen their chance to monetize updates by providing them in print along with other extra content people are conveniently forgetting about when they want a whine. I'm not saying it's the optimal system, but my word people, keep your toys in the pram for once.
A) I never said i was fine with their other contents monetization system, frankly if they would've not the makret power and the lore they would not be able to pull their Rulebook+Index+Codex+ CA system.
B) There is not an inherent problem with providing balanced rules for free for a game, even updated.Infact this is one of the things mentioned most often at the FLGS why people were and are hesitant to start 40k.
A) I don't know how you've got to that first part of the sentence.... In answer to the second part, they do have the pull and market power, that's how being a successful business works.
B) Say who? GW aren't a charity, if they thought giving the rules away for free would help their business then they'd do it.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
BrianDavion wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:ValentineGames wrote:
Nobody asks for that level of pants on head retardedness. And if you're happy with it and think it's great...you are a GW sheltered fanboy moron...no two ways about it
Oh, I guess you're right. We can't all be level headed geniuses like yourself. You should write a book or something about these injustices.
It does take a special person to be ok with buying 2 chapter approved books a year (so £40 a year) just to be allowed to keep playing because of new rules and pts changes that should of been right the first time with playtesting (what a joke) or as a free PDF.
I know no other wargame that charges you a £40 season pass to play with toys.
And I know no other fanbase who would willingly bend over and take it with a smile.
BrianDavion wrote:
A codex isn't expensive at all, (chapter approved is even less) when you compare the price to what you pay for a 40k mini. a codex is what, the cost of a box of tac marines?
That's a pretty poor example when a box of tactical marines has no value for money at all...
You're saying a book is just as good value as 10 models for £22.50...
When in comparison I can get 60 for £22.50 and play black powder which I never need mandatory books to use...
That's value for money.
Yeah codex's are old concepts, no one wants them anymore, all we want are the rules, I don't care about the nice shiny pictures and the lore that never really changes in any significant way, and its always a summery of the lore, you can learn more just on the internet for free. I hinestly do not know why people buy the limited editions, If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't buy them.
except people obviously do want them. And some people even happily buy the special editions. if all you want are the rules just use the bloody index and use the internet for the 5 or so pages of additional rules the codex would give you. quit trying to pretend you speak for "everyone" you don't. you've got a nasty habbit of spewing your opinion as if it was fact Delvarus.
How do you know that 'they obviously want them' they haven't given them the option, so stop saying you speak for everyone as well DERP... Just use the index, that's an idiotic statement. No I haven't spewed my opinion as fact, I always make sure not to do that and make sure what is opinion is stated as such and most of what I say in the lore is backed up by quotes, go find a quote where I am spewing my opinion as fact. I've got a nasty habit of being right and people get pissed off and get butthurt like you, so you all wine about Dalvarus lol
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Post by: phillv85
Blastaar wrote:BrianDavion wrote:phillv85 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans.
Yes I am. People wanted updates regularly, GW provides for a nominal fee. GW have seen their chance to monetize updates by providing them in print along with other extra content people are conveniently forgetting about when they want a whine. I'm not saying it's the optimal system, but my word people, keep your toys in the pram for once.
I swear GW could send hookers to these peoples doors and they'd complain about the colour of her hair.
Right, because it's great for the players to pay a balance fee every six months. That is what Chapter Approved is. A surcharge for the less-unbalanced version of Warhammer 40,000. The extra content is only there as an attempt to justify charging for balance. I think nearly everyone agrees that the points changes should be free. That is the issue. And dismissing criticism with "people will never be happy with anything GW could hypothetically do, they just want to complain" shows you don't have much of an argument.
The extra content is there to justify the balance charges correct. And you know, to keep people interested with new scenarios etc. I'd like to see the points changes for free, hell I'd like to get the models for free as well. Don't say people on here don't like to complain, some people here will openly admit they just like a moan. I don't see how saying serial complainers are complainers makes me not have much of an argument, that's complete nonsense.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Nobody said they wanted the models for free. Most people are just not fine how the rules are handled as an extended attempt at what is essentially a mandatory additional tax to keep playing. Especially when one considers that they said this was the most playtested edition ever. They then find the guts to tax additionally for a mandatory balance update? I guess that is were many drew the line.
If they really would've wanted to sell us the additional scenarios, they could've had other ways. Heck i would not mind an additional and optional scenario book, if the scenarios were PROPERLY TESTED before hand.
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Post by: phillv85
Most people are just fine with Chapter Approved as well, but to a vocal minority an extra £20 a year to keep up to date with the rules and to get some new additional content is tantamount to blackmail or worse.
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Post by: Kdash
Ok, so, anyone complaining that the codices are “to expensive” etc, I invite you to do something –
Go down to your local main book store or library.
Look for a full colour, hardback, 100-200 page, A4 book containing glossy printed pictures and artwork. (these are generally reference books as well)
Look at the price.
You will generally see a price range of £20 to £45. GW Codices are currently priced at £25 online.
While there, compare the GW price, to the prices of all the hardback autobiographies, or new release hardback novels. Before discounts, you’ll be looking at paying £20-£25 on average.
Suddenly, the cost of a GW codex, for what it is, doesn’t seem that expensive.
As for Chapter Approved. It will all depend on what this years contains and is priced at. Last years, was reasonably priced for what it contained. Sure, you could argue that the points changes should have been free, but, I’d then also argue that the rest of the books contents was perfectly fine being in there for the price tag. Do I use CA regularly? No. I think, since I’ve got it, I’ve used it at 2 events, and then, only as a reference/should someone want to make sure my info is correct. For someone who generally only plays at events, it was a bit of a wasted buy just for the points cost, but, if you’re more interested in playing the game casually it contains a whole load of info, especially for armies that didn’t have a codex at the time.
But, at the end of the day, is a game update and new content worth £20 a year? Arguably it is, and in many cases in digital games, you'd be paying a lot more.
I personally can’t speak on all the necromunda/specialist games issues and releases, but, if you are playing a single faction in one of those games, do you need that much? Looking at it from someone who doesn’t play it, I’d say I only need 1 Gang War book and then the Gang cards as handy play references in order to play a normal game? I’m guessing, if I brought some of the GW terrain to go “3d”, the terrain would contain the relevant rules info in order to be used? If they don’t, where are the “3d” rules? In a Gang War?
So, at most, I’d be looking at paying £35 on books and £9 on arguably unneeded cards. Now, maybe I’m looking at this from a 40k perspective, but, is that really over the top and too expensive? Especially as it looks like there are free core rule downloads on the necromunda website, similar to the 40k core rules.
The only thing I’d be currently annoyed at, is if GW pulled an AoS on everything else, and re-released a completely changed Space Marine Codex every 6 months like they’ve apparently done with Sigmarines. (that said, I do wish they would start adding in FAQ and CA changes into the codices quicker than they currently do.)
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Post by: ValentineGames
Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah codex's are old concepts, no one wants them anymore, all we want are the rules, I don't care about the nice shiny pictures and the lore that never really changes in any significant way, and its always a summery of the lore, you can learn more just on the internet for free. I hinestly do not know why people buy the limited editions, If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't buy them.
At this point you're just blabbering pointlessly.
I said nothing about a codex or limited editions.
A comparison was made to a tactical squad. Stop chatting gak.
I wasn't even talking to you.
Then quote the person you're talking to...which was me...bloody hell we got some really "special" people here.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
ValentineGames wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah codex's are old concepts, no one wants them anymore, all we want are the rules, I don't care about the nice shiny pictures and the lore that never really changes in any significant way, and its always a summery of the lore, you can learn more just on the internet for free. I hinestly do not know why people buy the limited editions, If I was a millionaire I still wouldn't buy them.
At this point you're just blabbering pointlessly.
I said nothing about a codex or limited editions.
A comparison was made to a tactical squad. Stop chatting gak.
I wasn't even talking to you.
Then quote the person you're talking to...which was me...bloody hell
Calm down there sparky.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Kdash wrote:Ok, so, anyone complaining that the codices are “to expensive” etc, I invite you to do something –
Go down to your local main book store or library.
Look for a full colour, hardback, 100-200 page, A4 book containing glossy printed pictures and artwork. (these are generally reference books as well)
Look at the price.
You will generally see a price range of £20 to £45. GW Codices are currently priced at £25 online.
While there, compare the GW price, to the prices of all the hardback autobiographies, or new release hardback novels. Before discounts, you’ll be looking at paying £20-£25 on average.
Suddenly, the cost of a GW codex, for what it is, doesn’t seem that expensive.
As for Chapter Approved. It will all depend on what this years contains and is priced at. Last years, was reasonably priced for what it contained. Sure, you could argue that the points changes should have been free, but, I’d then also argue that the rest of the books contents was perfectly fine being in there for the price tag. Do I use CA regularly? No. I think, since I’ve got it, I’ve used it at 2 events, and then, only as a reference/should someone want to make sure my info is correct. For someone who generally only plays at events, it was a bit of a wasted buy just for the points cost, but, if you’re more interested in playing the game casually it contains a whole load of info, especially for armies that didn’t have a codex at the time.
But, at the end of the day, is a game update and new content worth £20 a year? Arguably it is, and in many cases in digital games, you'd be paying a lot more.
I personally can’t speak on all the necromunda/specialist games issues and releases, but, if you are playing a single faction in one of those games, do you need that much? Looking at it from someone who doesn’t play it, I’d say I only need 1 Gang War book and then the Gang cards as handy play references in order to play a normal game? I’m guessing, if I brought some of the GW terrain to go “3d”, the terrain would contain the relevant rules info in order to be used? If they don’t, where are the “3d” rules? In a Gang War?
So, at most, I’d be looking at paying £35 on books and £9 on arguably unneeded cards. Now, maybe I’m looking at this from a 40k perspective, but, is that really over the top and too expensive? Especially as it looks like there are free core rule downloads on the necromunda website, similar to the 40k core rules.
The only thing I’d be currently annoyed at, is if GW pulled an AoS on everything else, and re-released a completely changed Space Marine Codex every 6 months like they’ve apparently done with Sigmarines. (that said, I do wish they would start adding in FAQ and CA changes into the codices quicker than they currently do.)
First: Name me one online game that charges additional money for the balance of the game. I am waiting. Even Paradox does release balance updates for free. Additional content is priced, that is correct and that would not be the problem. The pts. changes however are a problem.
Secondly: The price of books vastly depends on the country you are in. Depending on book price laws etc.
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Post by: BrianDavion
phillv85 wrote:Most people are just fine with Chapter Approved as well, but to a vocal minority an extra £20 a year to keep up to date with the rules and to get some new additional content is tantamount to blackmail or worse.
And most of those people are just looking for something to complain about. If you don't like chapter approved, the best advice I can give you, get the points costs on the internet, and don't buy it.
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Post by: Karol
vonjankmon wrote:
And Peregine, just because you think it is to much effort and cost does not mean everyone else agrees. The Facebook group for the AnyCubic is blowing up and a lot of the gaming community that has been involved in 3D printing are picking them up for miniatures in large numbers now. And a good print on the AnyCubic after being primed will be indistinguishable from a high quality molded mini, I am speaking from first hand in person experience here.
Recasting also seems to be doing great, if in my community people can recast simple stuff like tank guns or turrets,I think this means in larger cities there could be full blown recast "factories".
First: Name me one online game that charges additional money for the balance of the game
FIFA 20XX? Each new version is practicly the same game sometimes with unupgraded grafics, and nothing new in it. I think EA does one for american football too, although as I have not see it, I can't be 100% sure about it.
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Post by: Kdash
Not Online!!! wrote:Kdash wrote:Ok, so, anyone complaining that the codices are “to expensive” etc, I invite you to do something –
Go down to your local main book store or library.
Look for a full colour, hardback, 100-200 page, A4 book containing glossy printed pictures and artwork. (these are generally reference books as well)
Look at the price.
You will generally see a price range of £20 to £45. GW Codices are currently priced at £25 online.
While there, compare the GW price, to the prices of all the hardback autobiographies, or new release hardback novels. Before discounts, you’ll be looking at paying £20-£25 on average.
Suddenly, the cost of a GW codex, for what it is, doesn’t seem that expensive.
As for Chapter Approved. It will all depend on what this years contains and is priced at. Last years, was reasonably priced for what it contained. Sure, you could argue that the points changes should have been free, but, I’d then also argue that the rest of the books contents was perfectly fine being in there for the price tag. Do I use CA regularly? No. I think, since I’ve got it, I’ve used it at 2 events, and then, only as a reference/should someone want to make sure my info is correct. For someone who generally only plays at events, it was a bit of a wasted buy just for the points cost, but, if you’re more interested in playing the game casually it contains a whole load of info, especially for armies that didn’t have a codex at the time.
But, at the end of the day, is a game update and new content worth £20 a year? Arguably it is, and in many cases in digital games, you'd be paying a lot more.
I personally can’t speak on all the necromunda/specialist games issues and releases, but, if you are playing a single faction in one of those games, do you need that much? Looking at it from someone who doesn’t play it, I’d say I only need 1 Gang War book and then the Gang cards as handy play references in order to play a normal game? I’m guessing, if I brought some of the GW terrain to go “3d”, the terrain would contain the relevant rules info in order to be used? If they don’t, where are the “3d” rules? In a Gang War?
So, at most, I’d be looking at paying £35 on books and £9 on arguably unneeded cards. Now, maybe I’m looking at this from a 40k perspective, but, is that really over the top and too expensive? Especially as it looks like there are free core rule downloads on the necromunda website, similar to the 40k core rules.
The only thing I’d be currently annoyed at, is if GW pulled an AoS on everything else, and re-released a completely changed Space Marine Codex every 6 months like they’ve apparently done with Sigmarines. (that said, I do wish they would start adding in FAQ and CA changes into the codices quicker than they currently do.)
First: Name me one online game that charges additional money for the balance of the game. I am waiting. Even Paradox does release balance updates for free. Additional content is priced, that is correct and that would not be the problem. The pts. changes however are a problem.
Secondly: The price of books vastly depends on the country you are in. Depending on book price laws etc.
I didn’t say companies charge for balance changes, I said they charge for updates and new content – which are generally rolled into 1 a lot of the time, either as a Steam DLC, or an Expansion. An “update” isn’t necessarily a bug fix or balance change.
As I said in my post, I agreed that the points cost changes should have been separate/could be argued to be, and that they should have already been updated in all codices printed after CA was released. But, the actual cost of CA for the other content it included was reasonable. GW made a controversial decision including the points changes in the book, but, as most players build their lists using something like battlescribe anyway, you could argue that anyone just wanting it for the points changes could have skipped it anyway. Let’s face it, when was the last time someone asked to check your copy of CA for the updated points cost of one of your units, so they can double check you’ve got your battlescribe list right in the middle of an event? Or do they generally check the lists themselves on battlescribe (if they want to) or rely on the list checking procedures put in place by the TO prior to the event starting?
Ok, but, as we are talking about GW prices (a British company) is it not right to then compare them to other books priced in the UK? What is the current cost of a GW codex for you? And then the current cost of one of my example books in your local book store? Are they in a similar situation to here in the UK?
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Post by: Not Online!!!
I pay for the books:
Rulebook: 58 CHF or 44£
Index: 25.50 CHF or 19.35£
Codex: 42-51.50 CHF or 31.86£ -39.07£
CA: 32CHF or 24.28£
I would think they are compareable in reagards monetarywise. The only real outlier i see is the CA which just costs an addition 20%.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
If they really would've wanted to sell us the additional scenarios, they could've had other ways. Heck i would not mind an additional and optional scenario book, if the scenarios were PROPERLY TESTED before hand.
I am certainly not against additional content and to pay for that btw. I am just against the fact that a balance update is hold behind a paywall.
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Post by: Nightlord1987
All. The Killteam faction rules are in the Killteam rulebook.
So I'm not surprised that we get so few initially.
Now they can add in Killteam kits that will include rules in the boxes and can also be usable for 40k. Sounds good to me.
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Post by: nekooni
phillv85 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:phillv85 wrote:I thought Chapter approved was annual? Isn't the FAQ free as well? So they update the rules in press once a year and it's £20? They also print New games modes etc. in it. It's not the worst deal in the world people, come on.
Are you honestly trying to justify, what essentially is a balance patch, should be sold for extra money from the player?
I mean not even EA pulled such shenanigans.
Yes I am. People wanted updates regularly, GW provides for a nominal fee. GW have seen their chance to monetize updates by providing them in print along with other extra content people are conveniently forgetting about when they want a whine. I'm not saying it's the optimal system, but my word people, keep your toys in the pram for once.
Having to pay for new content is fine.
Having to pay for balance changes is not.
They should've just released the few pages of point changes as a PDF for free in addition to printing them in CA, and people not interested in the new content wouldn't have had to buy it just for 3 or 4 pages of rules. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kdash wrote:I didn’t say companies charge for balance changes, I said they charge for updates and new content – which are generally rolled into 1 a lot of the time, either as a Steam DLC, or an Expansion. An “update” isn’t necessarily a bug fix or balance change.
Balance changes and bugfixes are almost always free updates while new content - e.g. a new playable race, a new story line, new units - is usually a paid DLC.
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Post by: cmspano
I'm sure being able to sell expansions is part of their decision to release limited choices at launch but there are a few other factors that have to be in play.
Release time: more units/factions means more work, more testing, more writing, more art, more pages in the core rules. The physical cost of the book goes up the larger you make it, but the price also goes up the longer it takes you to get the book out. For example lets say it took 12 months to finalize the release edition of Kill Team. That includes the book and all it's writing and art, the game design, the packaging design of the starter kill teams, etc. Lets say they release a lot more units and it takes them 18 months to get all that ready. That's a 50% increase in labor cost and some increase to production cost for a bigger book. That's going to drive the price of the book up if GW wants to hit their target ROI on the product. The higher the price the less people will buy it.
It makes much more sense to keep the initial release more limited and get it out there and then release an expansion.
There's also the game balance perspective that I'm sure they considered. They want this edition of Kill Team to be balanced, or as balanced as a GW game can be. They want KT to have a solid competitive scene, similar to Shadespire. That's also why they brought the Shadespire team into the project to help with game balance, since they did a pretty good job of making SS a balanced competitive game. This is way easier to do if you limit people's options. They can see how everything plays out and adjust from there. Then add more units. The more options you have, the more ways to break the game there will be.
This also makes good business sense. If you can make a good competitive scene for Kill Team you will pull in a lot of new players because of the lower barrier of entry than 40k. I know a number of people who think 40k is neat, but would never sink money into a full army and books. But if they had a game with a similar feel where they only need 5-10 models that's way more accessible. They'll also pull in competitive players from other genres of game who spend the bulk of their money elsewhere. Competitive MTG players spend huge amounts on their decks and might not want to sink money into another game. Same thing, they might see another competitive game they can get into for a lower price point.
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Post by: Skaorn
I'm not going to do this because I'm not really invested enough in this argument, but why doesn't someone do a poll asking if people would have bought the last CA if the rules and point changes were also made available for free online. See if people think the extra content was worth purchasing on its own if the updates to the game weren't something you need to pay for.
I don't really think so, considering the last CA book I had paid for had things like the Kroot Merc list and VDR rules for more than just LRs. That's just me though.
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Post by: Blastaar
 Nightlord1987 wrote:All. The Killteam faction rules are in the Killteam rulebook.
So I'm not surprised that we get so few initially.
Now they can add in Killteam kits that will include rules in the boxes and can also be usable for 40k. Sounds good to me.
Including more options initially would in no way have prevented them from releasing new kits with rules in the box, though. This is a business decision, nothing more.
And for those speculating that fewer options will make the game more balanced- restrictions are part of balance, but not to the degree of "you get two different guys to choose from." That is lazy, let's-make-the-game-less-interesting-because-balance-is-too-hard balancing. It remains to be see whether GW will, for the first time, write a forward-thinking ruleset that can accommodate unit types that haven't been released yet.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
BrianDavion wrote:phillv85 wrote:Most people are just fine with Chapter Approved as well, but to a vocal minority an extra £20 a year to keep up to date with the rules and to get some new additional content is tantamount to blackmail or worse.
And most of those people are just looking for something to complain about. If you don't like chapter approved, the best advice I can give you, get the points costs on the internet, and don't buy it.
And people like you love to complain about people complaining. Its like there is nothing that some GW fans will never moan about, its okay to vent about things you don't like, why do you care if people are moaning.
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Post by: nekooni
Skaorn wrote:I'm not going to do this because I'm not really invested enough in this argument, but why doesn't someone do a poll asking if people would have bought the last CA if the rules and point changes were also made available for free online. See if people think the extra content was worth purchasing on its own if the updates to the game weren't something you need to pay for.
I don't really think so, considering the last CA book I had paid for had things like the Kroot Merc list and VDR rules for more than just LRs. That's just me though.
What do you consider "rule changes"? CA contains just new content and a list of rebalanced point values, at least by my definition of what that means. And yes, I'd still have bought it - I don't use the points in CA anyway because I only ever build my lists using Battlescribe.
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Post by: Skaorn
nekooni wrote:Skaorn wrote:I'm not going to do this because I'm not really invested enough in this argument, but why doesn't someone do a poll asking if people would have bought the last CA if the rules and point changes were also made available for free online. See if people think the extra content was worth purchasing on its own if the updates to the game weren't something you need to pay for.
I don't really think so, considering the last CA book I had paid for had things like the Kroot Merc list and VDR rules for more than just LRs. That's just me though.
What do you consider "rule changes"? CA contains just new content and a list of rebalanced point values, at least by my definition of what that means. And yes, I'd still have bought it - I don't use the points in CA anyway because I only ever build my lists using Battlescribe.
Updated points and anything that probably should be part of an FAQ like new beta rules or beta rules going into final forms. Additional content would be things like the VDR, variant army lists, new missions, specialist rules for running games like ship boarding actions, etc. In other words, if you insure the basic updates to the game are freely available in other formats too, would players still see CA as worth it buy based on the additional content? I don't think the CA for 2017 was that great for additional content. 2018 might be better though, considering we know that it will almost certainly have SoB beta rules, but we don't know how in depth that will be or what quality the other content will be. It could turn into a cop out that just updates existing rules and models from the index for SoB, with no insight into things like new units, and the many reason people end up getting it is for the rebalancing of points and rules as the other content isn't really that great either.
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Post by: Karol
Yeah, buying updated points for GK, is tough to explain to oneself. Getting rules for a full chamber that is specilised in using a special tactic or a unit of some sort, is welcome.
And it may even work for people who already have good armies, eldar players are done as far as army goes, but if someone gave them an option for a good army with units they don't use as often, then they may buy it.
How many BA players would want to play with a full space marine assault company, if it had the actual rules to support that kind of game play?
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Post by: CREEEEEEEEED
Can someone explain to me why a physical tabletop game with physical rules books keeps getting compared to video games as though the two were one and the same and operate on the same playing field? Because they don't. Hence why the OP idea of 40k going season pass is so ridiculous.
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Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
What's so ridiculous about the idea? It's been argued that having digital products that can easily and quickly be updated are a superior (if alternate) format that would allow the rules to be tweaked and GW to make their money too.
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Post by: BrianDavion
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:What's so ridiculous about the idea? It's been argued that having digital products that can easily and quickly be updated are a superior (if alternate) format that would allow the rules to be tweaked and GW to make their money too.
because they're two seperate platforms. l40k isn't a video game.
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Post by: ValentineGames
It's exactly the same principle though...so what's the problem?
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Post by: BrianDavion
Because it's showing an absolute misunderstanding of the structure. a better way to understand it would be to look at other table top games. a good example is D&D. you're given the core rules and then they produce optional supplemental rule books with more rules and information etc. they're not always nesscary, but back in the days of 3rd edition, you definatly had power creep with the sourcebooks, and if you wan ted your char to be at the top of the game, you wanted to make sure you had the latest relevant Spaltbooks.
so basicly what GW's doing is nothing new if you look at table top gaming on the whole
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Post by: ValentineGames
BrianDavion wrote:
Because it's showing an absolute misunderstanding of the structure. a better way to understand it would be to look at other table top games. a good example is D&D. you're given the core rules and then they produce optional supplemental rule books with more rules and information etc. they're not always nesscary, but back in the days of 3rd edition, you definatly had power creep with the sourcebooks, and if you wan ted your char to be at the top of the game, you wanted to make sure you had the latest relevant Spaltbooks.
so basicly what GW's doing is nothing new if you look at table top gaming on the whole
Really?
I've never had MANDATORY points and rules updates every six months for bolt action that cost me £20 each time...
Or for Attack Wing.
Or Black powder.
Or Disposable heroes.
Or Battlefleet Gothic.
Or Star Fleet Battles........
How weird for you to say that.
No point comparing £20 mandatory points changes to D&D optional or additional rules.
They aren't mandatory.
Silly.
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Post by: CREEEEEEEEED
ValentineGames wrote:Really?
I've never had MANDATORY points and rules updates every six months for bolt action that cost me £20 each time...
Or for Attack Wing.
Or Black powder.
Or Disposable heroes.
Or Battlefleet Gothic.
Or Star Fleet Battles........
How weird for you to say that.
No point comparing £20 mandatory points changes to D&D optional or additional rules.
They aren't mandatory.
Silly.
A) Rule 1
B) Just because GW has some less than pleasant money gouging practices, does not make this a video game.
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Post by: Blastaar
The principle is the same- withholding components of the core experience of the game to charge players multiple times for the same product- it is only the medium that is different. Not every book outside of Codices and the BRB is an expansion. Cities of Death is an expansion, because it has extra optional content fully contained within its pages. Gang War is less a stand alone product and more akin to DLC, especially the first book, because GW held back portions of the core rules so that they could release them separately and charge players a second time for the full product. WOTC didn't remove the fighter from the 5th ed. Player's Handbook and sell the rules for it separately for $20. And don't forget the data slates and formations during 7th, some of which were exclusive to special bundles/boxes and/or were literal Downloadable Content.
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Post by: Dandelion
There seems to be a few misconceptions in this thread:
1) Chapter approved is an ANNUAL supplement. Not every 6 months.
2) The FAQs and Erratas are every 6 months and those are free.
3) Digital codexes exist and are updated to match any errata including those done in chapter approved.
Now, Chapter Approved as an annual expansion to missions is great. New apocalypse/stronghold assault/planetstrike rules and missions. Tired of the same old missions? Get Chapter Approved. However, I agree that points changes should not be held exclusively in Chapter Approved. Any and all errata should be free online, since we paid for the book already.
As for Gang Wars, well aren't those expansions? Didn't the team straight up say they haven't finished the models or rules for each gang? You know since rules follow models at GW. Hardly intentionally withholding content. If anything the Gang Wars books are like the Dawn of War games: Core game with starting factions and a campaign. Then each expansion gave you new factions and new campaigns. Unless you guys consider that swindling.
Maybe they could have done a better job of it but it's hardly day one DLC or cosmetic DLC or loot boxes. Heck, it's not even a season pass since you can do whatever you want in home games. You don't *need* the updates/expansions to play the game at all.
Edit: to clarify, you would need the gang wars books for the gangs which is a shame, but it likely has to do with the clunky release they had.
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Post by: Skaorn
 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Really?
I've never had MANDATORY points and rules updates every six months for bolt action that cost me £20 each time...
Or for Attack Wing.
Or Black powder.
Or Disposable heroes.
Or Battlefleet Gothic.
Or Star Fleet Battles........
How weird for you to say that.
No point comparing £20 mandatory points changes to D&D optional or additional rules.
They aren't mandatory.
Silly.
A) Rule 1
B) Just because GW has some less than pleasant money gouging practices, does not make this a video game.
A) I'm not going to talk about.
B) I think that a table top wargame has far more in common to a video game than a table top RPG. For one thing both are played against an opponent, even if it is the computer, where as RPGs are generally supposed to be a cooperative game between players and the GM. Yes you can have PVP or PVGM games but, in my experience, those tend to be very short lived games. Ideally both war games and particularly multiplayer video games are balanced so that the ultimate deciding factors are skill, planning, and luck. They get tweaked when it turns out that one option might be too strong, too weak, or had unintended consequences. RPGs don't need to worry that much about balance because everyone is usually working together, you have a GM who will often try to keep things going smoothly and try to give all the players fun things to do, and the victories are generally shared by all. DnD has never been well balanced as your heaviest hitters when you get to high levels are your wizard or cleric. There are games like Rifts that specifically state that designers made no attempts to balance things. Then you have games like GURPS which try to balance things out with a point system with lots of options that might only come up once in a campaign (like pressure tolerance) or might completely miss like realizing there was a Hiking skill when you figured your three Survival skills in various terrains covered that. Ultimately in an RPG not being as powerful as the person across the table from you or buying things for your character that are suboptimal but fit with your theme aren't going to be the problem it is when you're directly playing versus another opponent. RPGs can generally go longer without addressing imbalances and their supplements are all suggestions for things that can be used or not. Adding a supplement to DnD that adds a few over or underpowered classes isn't going to be the problem as adding a new DLC with imbalanced PVP characters or an OP army. For an RPG the supplement can just be ignored in future releases. You can't really do that for a video game or a war game.
In the digital age, I see no reason that games that rely heavily on getting things to be as fair as possible to release updates to the products people have already bought for free.
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Post by: Blastaar
Dandelion wrote:There seems to be a few misconceptions in this thread:
1) Chapter approved is an ANNUAL supplement. Not every 6 months.
2) The FAQs and Erratas are every 6 months and those are free.
3) Digital codexes exist and are updated to match any errata including those done in chapter approved.
Now, Chapter Approved as an annual expansion to missions is great. New apocalypse/stronghold assault/planetstrike rules and missions. Tired of the same old missions? Get Chapter Approved. However, I agree that points changes should not be held exclusively in Chapter Approved. Any and all errata should be free online, since we paid for the book already.
A s for Gang Wars, well aren't those expansions? Didn't the team straight up say they haven't finished the models or rules for each gang? You know since rules follow models at GW. Hardly intentionally withholding content. If anything the Gang Wars books are like the Dawn of War games: Core game with starting factions and a campaign. Then each expansion gave you new factions and new campaigns. Unless you guys consider that swindling.
Maybe they could have done a better job of it but it's hardly day one DLC or cosmetic DLC or loot boxes. Heck, it's not even a season pass since you can do whatever you want in home games. You don't *need* the updates/expansions to play the game at all.
Edit: to clarify, you would need the gang wars books for the gangs which is a shame, but it likely has to do with the clunky release they had.
Gang War 1 was day-one or nearly day-one DLC because it contained elements integral to Necromunda- campaigns and 3-d terrain- that were removed from the core rules where they belong so that they could be sold separately. The following GW books less so, but there is an argument to be made that GW model kits should include the unit's full rules- this would also make it easier for them to release new kits.
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Post by: Dandelion
Blastaar wrote:
Gang War 1 was day-one or nearly day-one DLC because it contained elements integral to Necromunda- campaigns and 3-d terrain- that were removed from the core rules where they belong so that they could be sold separately. The following GW books less so, but there is an argument to be made that GW model kits should include the unit's full rules- this would also make it easier for them to release new kits.
I do think the gang wars release was mishandled, but I'm not entirely convinced it has to do with nickel and diming as it does with the dev team making mistakes (I believe they're a relatively new team in specialist games). It certainly didn't help convince me to grab a gang. Do the kits not have rules in them like their 40k counterparts? If so that's a big mistake on their part.
As for 40k proper, people want long term support and balance fixes. Just look at how long Shadow War lasted... There's certainly room for improving their system, but I wouldn't go so far as to
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Post by: Blastaar
Dandelion wrote:Blastaar wrote:
Gang War 1 was day-one or nearly day-one DLC because it contained elements integral to Necromunda- campaigns and 3-d terrain- that were removed from the core rules where they belong so that they could be sold separately. The following GW books less so, but there is an argument to be made that GW model kits should include the unit's full rules- this would also make it easier for them to release new kits.
I do think the gang wars release was mishandled, but I'm not entirely convinced it has to do with nickel and diming as it does with the dev team making mistakes (I believe they're a relatively new team in specialist games). It certainly didn't help convince me to grab a gang. Do the kits not have rules in them like their 40k counterparts? If so that's a big mistake on their part.
As for 40k proper, people want long term support and balance fixes. Just look at how long Shadow War lasted... There's certainly room for improving their system, but I wouldn't go so far as to
40k kits do include datasheets, but if I remember correctly, they still require the codex and don't provide everything to make them playable right out of the box. I haven't purchased any Necromunda myself because of the expense, can anyone confirm whether or not a gang can be run out of the box, without a corresponding GW book?
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