I've had this rule used on me a few times, then started using it myself and I was recently challenged about it. If a space marine character uses the stratagem 'only in death does duty end', can it be used to consolidate in and attack a nearby model (one within 3" of it).
The stratagem says you 'fight as if it were the fight phase'. This includes consolidating in. I was challenged on it as in the rules for the fight phase have rules for which models may be selected to fight (either ones that charged or are within an inch of an enemy). I was wondering if this limitation applies or the stratagem just means you fight anyway. Just want to make sure I'm playing it right. Cheers for any help!
Unless you charged, you can only Fight in the Fight Phase if you’re within 1” of an enemy unit. I don’t see this as any different, so I’d say no, you cannot.
DoomMouse wrote: I've had this rule used on me a few times, then started using it myself and I was recently challenged about it. If a space marine character uses the stratagem 'only in death does duty end', can it be used to consolidate in and attack a nearby model (one within 3" of it).
The stratagem says you 'fight as if it were the fight phase'. This includes consolidating in. I was challenged on it as in the rules for the fight phase have rules for which models may be selected to fight (either ones that charged or are within an inch of an enemy). I was wondering if this limitation applies or the stratagem just means you fight anyway. Just want to make sure I'm playing it right. Cheers for any help!
It cannot be used to do so. When you fight as if it were the fight phase, you check to see if you're within 1" of an enemy or if you charged. If you are neither, you cannot pile in.
Step 1 is satisfied by the Strategem itself: you have no choice in units that will fight. None of the restrictions or requiements from this step apply.
Step 2 allows for the 3" movement to get within 1" range of step 3.
Step 3 requires targeting a unit or units within 1"; which would be the only place that could deny steps 4 and 5.
I don't get how this can even be used. Is there a scenario where he can be killed in the fight phase without being within 1" of an enemy. If you've killed him in the shooting phase, he can't use the strategem to fight as it's still in the shooting phase.
Valkyrie wrote: I don't get how this can even be used. Is there a scenario where he can be killed in the fight phase without being within 1" of an enemy. If you've killed him in the shooting phase, he can't use the strategem to fight as it's still in the shooting phase.
It doesn't matter when he is slain, only that he is slain.
If he is slain in the enemy shooting phase(or supercharging plasma in his shooting phase), and there is an enemy unit within 4"; then the marine player can activate the strategem, choose to have the character "fight as if it were his fight phase"("fighting" in the fight phase are steps 2-6) and first pile in 3" and make attacks.
Nos: only dead in overwatch if he declared the charge within 4".
Sorry, but this is totally wrong. Where do you get the faintest idea you can skip step 1 of the fight phase rules when you fight outside of the phase? That's like saying "I am shooting in the movement phase, so I can ignore step 3 and can shoot into a combat." (The risk... IS TOO GREAT!)
Furthermore, the FAQ for fighting "again", while not 100% the same situation, clearly states you go though ALL the steps, including Choose a unit to fight with, which states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."
BRBFAQ wrote:Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly? A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.
Sorry, but this is totally wrong. Where do you get the faintest idea you can skip step 1 of the fight phase rules when you fight outside of the phase? That's like saying "I am shooting in the movement phase, so I can ignore step 3 and can shoot into a combat." (The risk... IS TOO GREAT!)
Furthermore, the FAQ for fighting "again", while not 100% the same situation, clearly states you go though ALL the steps, including Choose a unit to fight with, which states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."
BRBFAQ wrote:Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.
I think the argument is that you don't CHOOSE a unit to fight because the stratagem covers that step. You are not actually running threw the entire Fight phase. You are only running threw the steps that that specific unit does in the fight phase.
When I use Single Minded Annhilation on a unit to shoot again in the shooting phase I am not picking that again AFTER I used the stratagem. The unit has already been selected. I move on to step 2.
You can only attacks units you declared a charge against, unless you are already within 1". If you die to overwatch, and you are within 4", you can use the stratagem to pile in and attack. If you didnt charge the unit you can only shoot them.
The stratagem doesnt tell you to skip the first step of the fight phase. It clearly says you can fight as if you were in the fight phase, which means you go through steps 1-6.
p5freak wrote: You can only attacks units you declared a charge against, unless you are already within 1". If you die to overwatch, and you are within 4", you can use the stratagem to pile in and attack. If you didnt charge the unit you can only shoot them.
The stratagem doesnt tell you to skip the first step of the fight phase. It clearly says you can fight as if you were in the fight phase, which means you go through steps 1-6.
Every unit that exists on the table cannot fight in the fight phase. Only units that meet specific criteria can fight, Which is detailed in step 1. The stratagem does not tell the unit that it IS the fight phase. It says they may fight as though it was. The unit already has permission to fight from the stratagem. Not the criteria laid out by step 1.
No it doesn’t. It doesn’t give permission to ignore the Fight Phase rules, rather it allows you to use them. Step 1 includes rules that would disqualify the unit from being selected, and as we have no permission to ignore them you cannot. You can Shoot if you have guns, but not Fight.
BCB: Step 1 tells us that it is not Fighting in the fight phase, it is selecting a unit to fight with in the fight phase; it then ends the rules of the step with "a fight is resolved with the following steps."
The Strategem is pre-selecting the fighting unit, no-matter what phase of whose turn the Strategem is used; including a fight phase.
The FAQ you used as "evidence" against my case also has no bearing on it(or you might call it a "special snowflake FAQ); it only clarifies that units with those abilities get placed back into the available units from step 1(as opposed to getting an immediate second Fight resolution). Pretty much apples and oranges; as the abilities require a fight phase, availability from step 1 to begin with, and are not a preselection of units from step 1.
"Only in death does duty end", space marine codex, strategemsg: "...that model summons the strength for one final attack, and can immediately either... or fight ad if it were your Fight phase"
That model, no others. Immediately. And does so in whichever phase of either player in which it was slain.
That model fighting as if it were your fight phase means that you do not select it in step 1; the strategem has done that for you regardless of distance to enemy models.
And on top of that how can you reconcile your claim that the character can perform step 2 or 6 if it cannot be selected in step 1? At least Johnyhell is consistent in his answer of flat-out no, you cannot unless the character was within 1" when slain.
skchsan wrote: The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.
If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?
This gets iffy. The thing that actually is SUPPOSED to disqualify you from shooting isn't whether you are in combat or not but rather what weapon you have. Pistols CAN shoot in combat but RAW they don't actually work. However, because we have to fudge the rules to make assault and pistol weapons work regularly we also fudge them for stratagems. A unit that is in combat can have a stratagem used on them that allows them to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. They would get to the step where they pick which weapon to shoot, pick their pistols, and shoot.
It's a bad example you present simply because the shooting rules are already broken and don't actually function by RAW.
skchsan wrote: The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.
If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?
This gets iffy. The thing that actually is SUPPOSED to disqualify you from shooting isn't whether you are in combat or not but rather what weapon you have. Pistols CAN shoot in combat but RAW they don't actually work. However, because we have to fudge the rules to make assault and pistol weapons work regularly we also fudge them for stratagems. A unit that is in combat can have a stratagem used on them that allows them to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. They would get to the step where they pick which weapon to shoot, pick their pistols, and shoot.
It's a bad example you present simply because the shooting rules are already broken and don't actually function by RAW.
Battle Primer pg 5
1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit. Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with. After all of the unit’s models have fired, you can choose another unit to shoot with, until all eligible units that you want to shoot with have done so.
Ineligibility for a unit to be picked to shoot in shooting phase is determinant upon 3 conditions:
1. unit that advanced
2. unit that fell back this turn
3. unit that is within 1" of enemy unit
If a unit is within 1" of enemy unit, the said unit cannot shoot unless otherwise noted.
Battle Primer pg 8
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
Eligibility to fight in the fight phase (or as if fight phase for that matter) is determinant upon 2 conditions:
1. unit has charged
2. unit has enemy models within 1"
The RAW issue with pistols and assault weapons have been errata'ed countless times throughout multiple codex/index/core rules. This is irrelevant counter point you bring up.
If we follow your line of logic, then a model without a ranged weapon can shoot in the shooting phase via stratagem despite the fact that the rule specifies that "you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons."
You still have to meet the criteria to fight in the fight phase.
Which means you have to have charged - or be within 1" of an enemy model.
It's already been pointed out in a very simple manner by skchsan. Are you saying this this stratagem could be used to shoot while you are within 1" of an enemy model?
"As if it were the fight phase" is a very clear direction.
skchsan wrote: The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.
If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?
This gets iffy. The thing that actually is SUPPOSED to disqualify you from shooting isn't whether you are in combat or not but rather what weapon you have. Pistols CAN shoot in combat but RAW they don't actually work. However, because we have to fudge the rules to make assault and pistol weapons work regularly we also fudge them for stratagems. A unit that is in combat can have a stratagem used on them that allows them to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. They would get to the step where they pick which weapon to shoot, pick their pistols, and shoot.
It's a bad example you present simply because the shooting rules are already broken and don't actually function by RAW.
Pistols have a special rule that says they can shoot at targets within 1" in the shooting phase. It is not iffy at all.
The RAW issue with pistols and assault weapons have been errata'ed countless times throughout multiple codex/index/core rules. This is irrelevant counter point you bring up.
If we follow your line of logic, then a model without a ranged weapon can shoot in the shooting phase via stratagem despite the fact that the rule specifies that "you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons."
Where has the rules actually been changed? Got a page number of which document?
A model without a ranged weapon can be a part of a unit that is selected via a stratagem to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. You would get to step 2, picking their weapon. They would have none. And the order of operations would end with nothing happening. Just because they don't have a gun or a gun with enough range it doesn't disqualify the unit from being the target of the stratagem.
Lance845 wrote: Where has the rules actually been changed? Got a page number of which document?
RE: "Stratagems that allow you to shoot normally after advancing doesn't work on Assault weapons - they still suffer -1 to hit."
DAFAQ & Errata:
Page 137 – Speed of the Raven
Add the following sentence:
‘In addition, that unit does not suffer the penalty to hit rolls for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’
SMFAQ & Errata:
Page 196 – Born in the Saddle
Add the following sentence:
‘In addition, that unit does not suffer the penalty to hit rolls for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’
Index: Imperium 2
FAQs ASTRA MILITARUM
Q: If an Astra Militarum unit equipped with Assault weapons Advances in their Movement phase and subsequently has the ‘Forwards, for the Emperor!’ order issued to them, is the -1 penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons waived?
A: No.
RE: Pistol rule that allows you to fire within 1" of enemy units doesn't work because [REASONS].
Rulebook FAQ & Errata:
Q: If my unit, which is equipped with Pistols, is within 1" of an enemy unit in the Shooting phase, but the closest enemy unit to some of the models in my unit is actually another enemy unit (i.e. not the enemy unit that is within 1" of my unit), which unit do those models shoot at?
A: Each individual model in your unit can shoot its Pistols at the closest enemy unit, whether it is the unit within 1" of the firing model’s unit or not (in such circumstances, the firing model can shoot the closest unit even if other friendly units are within 1" of it).
IA Xenos I FAQ & Errata:
Page 32 – ‘Chinork’ Warkopta, Abilities
Add the following datasheet to the datasheet:
‘Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and line of sight from any point on this model’s base. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on. Note that passengers cannot shoot if this model Falls Back, even though the ‘Chinork’ Warkopta itself can.’
Index: Chaos FAQ & Errata:
Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol.
Index: Xenos 1 FAQ & Errata:
Q: Can I use the Dodge ability of Wyches or Hekatrix Bloodbrides in the Shooting phase when my unit is shot by an enemy unit firing Pistols if my unit is within 1" of the firing unit?
A: No.
I can go on but the broken RAW regarding pistols and assault weapons have been clarified/revised per FAQs and erratas. Note, the actual rule for pistols and being able to fire while within 1" of enemy unit itself is not broken - it only becomes an issue when dealing with specific interactions.
Lance845 wrote: A model without a ranged weapon can be a part of a unit that is selected via a stratagem to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. You would get to step 2, picking their weapon. They would have none. And the order of operations would end with nothing happening. Just because they don't have a gun or a gun with enough range it doesn't disqualify the unit from being the target of the stratagem.
True, but if the unit does not contain any models that are equipped with ranged weapons, that unit cannot be selected to shoot.
The RAW issue with pistols and assault weapons have been errata'ed countless times throughout multiple codex/index/core rules. This is irrelevant counter point you bring up.
If we follow your line of logic, then a model without a ranged weapon can shoot in the shooting phase via stratagem despite the fact that the rule specifies that "you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons."
Where has the rules actually been changed? Got a page number of which document?
A model without a ranged weapon can be a part of a unit that is selected via a stratagem to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. You would get to step 2, picking their weapon. They would have none. And the order of operations would end with nothing happening. Just because they don't have a gun or a gun with enough range it doesn't disqualify the unit from being the target of the stratagem.
I don't have time to look through the giant errata but this has been changed. I'm pretty sure there was just a punctuation error. Supposed to be a coma, not a period in the sentence
It says something to the effect of "You can't select a unit to shoot that has fallen back, has advanced, or is within 1" of an enemy model. Unless otherwise stated, each unit fires with all it's ranged weapons it's armed with" They fixed it in the Errata. It was already abundantly clear that units with assault weapons/ pistols/ or a rule that says they can fall back and shoot - should be allowed to do so.
I think it is pretty clear that "as if it were X phase" is giving permission to act as if it was X phase, but you still have to meet all the criteria to do the action.
So saying that you can fight even you hadn't charged or in 1" of an enemy is the same as saying the model can fight an enemy unit is halfway across the table. You cannot put all the emphasis on "it can fight" without the qualifier "as if in the Fight phase" You still have to use the rules and meet the criteria. The Strat is merely giving you the permission to break the sequence and do an extra action that is would be able to do if it were that phase.
It allows you to fight "as if" in the Fight Phase. So if it were the fight phase, could you fight? If you hadn't charged or in 1" of an enemy, the answer is NO
And again; step 1 is satisfied by the Strategem itself.
You are told this model can do the thing, step 1 says it would not normally be elihible to do the thing.
What Lance is talking about with pistols and assault weapons are the same step 1 issues: a unit that advances or is within 1" cannot be selected to shoot(BCB has a link to a thread about this in his sig); but we still select those umits to shoot when armed with assault weapons and pistols respectively.
Let me pose 2 other scenarios for anyone to answer, and please give the reasons for your answers:
1) opponent's turn, he charges with 3 units; 1 of whom charge the SM character. Opponent step-1s the unit that charged the character first, slaying him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?
2) either player's turn in the fight phase; SM Character has already fought. Unit engaged with him slays him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?
Kommissar Kel wrote: 1) opponent's turn, he charges with 3 units; 1 of whom charge the SM character. Opponent step-1s the unit that charged the character first, slaying him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?
Yes.
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. SM character was eligible unit to be chosen to attack, therefore stratagem can be used.
Kommissar Kel wrote: 2) either player's turn in the fight phase; SM Character has already fought. Unit engaged with him slays him. SM player pops only in death. Can he fight?
RAW, no because:
No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. The stratagem is different from "fight again" stratagems, and does not specifically allow you to fight more than once.
RAI, yes I'd be inclined to think he can fight again, but a part of me believes it's to be used when an expensive model dies without being able to do anything so you're trying to squeeze the juice out of it before you toss it.
You are told this model can do the thing, step 1 says it would not normally be elihible to do the thing.
No, the Strat does NOT satisfy Step 1, it merely selects the model for you. If that model can't fight normally as if it were actually the Fight phase, it still cannot fight. You're focusing too much on the "this model can fight" part and ignoring the "as if it were the Fight phase" part
In #1 there are still 2 charging units that have yet to Fight, step 1 says charging units fight before any other units can fight.
But again: step 1 is determining who can fight and selecting those units who can. The Strategem is either skipping step 1, or stating that the SM Character can and is the selected unit to fight.
Skipping step 1 is justified by the strategem stating that the model simply fights; step 1 is part of the fight phase but cannot be part of fighting in the fight phase because it would then be self-referential(selecting a unit to fight would bring it right back to step 1 ad nauseam)
If you believe that step 1 is part of fighting and not just part of the fight phase, then the strategem has satisfied step-1 for you, including the breaking of those basic rules with this special rule: you cannot select any other units to fight during the strategem's resolution; it is only the slain character that fights.
Kommissar Kel wrote: In #1 there are still 2 charging units that have yet to Fight, step 1 says charging units fight before any other units can fight.
And the stratagem states you do these actions "immediately" - this specific clause allow you to interrupt those units "attacking first due to having charged."
Kommissar Kel wrote: But again: step 1 is determining who can fight and selecting those units who can. The Strategem is either skipping step 1, or stating that the SM Character can and is the selected unit to fight.
Skipping step 1 is justified by the strategem stating that the model simply fights; step 1 is part of the fight phase but cannot be part of fighting in the fight phase because it would then be self-referential(selecting a unit to fight would bring it right back to step 1 ad nauseam)
If you believe that step 1 is part of fighting and not just part of the fight phase, then the stratagem has satisfied step-1 for you, including the breaking of those basic rules with this special rule: you cannot select any other units to fight during the strategem's resolution; it is only the slain character that fights.
At the end of the day, this is an interpretation of the rule, not RAW. You have not been given specific permission to "fight even though this model has not charged or doesn't have enemy models within 1".
You guys keep claiming that there are some "cannot fight" restrictions in step 1.
There isn't.
Step 1 tells us who is eligible to be selected to fight.
If the SM player chooses to fight as if it were their Fight phase; can they select any other units to fight?
No. The selected unit to Fight is the slain character. This is selected regardless of whether he is eligible to be selected.
And once again. Look at the very last line of Step 1: "A fight is resolved in the following steps:"
See that colon at the end of the last word? That means the steps that follow that colon are the steps of a fight in the Fight phase, after you have determined which units are eligible to fight.
So in summary: the Strategem selects the character to fight(whether he would be eligible or not), then the fight is step 2-6. No matter how you look at it, the eligibility requirements in step 1 do not amd cannot apply here.
If you are looking at the Strat as replacing step 1, sure, I might agree. The issue is that no one is agreeing that the Strat does jack for step 1, other than to take out the optional "selection" part.
The way it reads, the Strat allows you to break the normal sequence and follow the Fight phase steps. Step 1 selects a unit that has either charged or is within 1" of an enemy. The Strat selects the character automatically, but then immediately stops as you aren't allowed to go further
Kommissar Kel wrote: You guys keep claiming that there are some "cannot fight" restrictions in step 1.
There isn't.
Step 1 tells us who is eligible to be selected to fight.
If the SM player chooses to fight as if it were their Fight phase; can they select any other units to fight?
No. The selected unit to Fight is the slain character. This is selected regardless of whether he is eligible to be selected.
And once again. Look at the very last line of Step 1: "A fight is resolved in the following steps:"
See that colon at the end of the last word? That means the steps that follow that colon are the steps of a fight in the Fight phase, after you have determined which units are eligible to fight.
So in summary: the Strategem selects the character to fight(whether he would be eligible or not), then the fight is step 2-6. No matter how you look at it, the eligibility requirements in step 1 do not amd cannot apply here.
Again, this is an inference gathered from piece-mealing of the sentences that comprise of the rule as a whole.
It's not that your inference is wrong - it's just that the ruleset doesn't work on logical interpretation of the rule.
You NEED the rule to say something in the lines of "this unit can fight, regardless of whether it was eligible to fight before it was slain" in order for your interpretation to work as RAW.
Unless it LITERALLY and EXPLICITLY says you can do this, then you can't do it. That's 40k rules for you.
If "step 1 still exists" and the character is ineligible to be selected(not that the strat doesn't select the character itself); then why couldn't an eligibe unit fight instead?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: "You guys keep claiming that there are some "cannot fight" restrictions in step 1.
There isn't.
Step 1 tells us who is eligible to be selected to fight."
Exactly - the stratagem does not give you permission to ignore this. It actually says - you "fight as if it was the fight phase."
Fight phase starts at step 1 - step 1 states you must be within 1" of a model or charged in order to be selected to fight.
And Again. Fights start in the Fight phase at step 2.
Kommissar Kel wrote: So I can declare the Strat and then select a unit of Vanguard Vets engaged on the other side of the table, right?
I believe the strat says "select an infantry character or biker character"
Exactly. For an ability/strat to work, ALL rules must be satisfied, unless EXPLICITILY stated otherwise.
If A is required to do B, but an ability allows you to do B out of sequence when C is involved, it still requires A. It also requires C to do out of sequence Again, unless the ability specifically says you can do B without needing A when the criteria for C are met.
Kommissar Kel wrote: So I can declare the Strat and then select a unit of Vanguard Vets engaged on the other side of the table, right?
I believe the strat says "select an infantry character or biker character"
Exactly. For an ability/strat to work, ALL rules must be satisfied, unless EXPLICITILY stated otherwise.
If A is required to do B, but an ability allows you to do B out of sequence when C is involved, it still requires A.
It also requires C to do out of sequence
Again, unless the ability specifically says you can do B without needing A when the criteria for C are met.
-
It isn't even that complex.
The strat states the character fights as if it were the Fight phase.
What are the Steps to resolve a fight in the Fight phase?
The strat states the character fights as if it were the Fight phase.
What are the Steps to resolve a fight in the Fight phase?
Just because a unit is allowed to fight as if it was fight phase, it doesn't mean that it gets to ignore any/all rules pertaining to fighting as if it was fight phase unless explicitly allowed to ignore them otherwise.
You are missing the "as if" portion. The character indeed Fights "as if" it were the Fight phase. i.e., he DOESNT if not within 1" of an enemy.
The Strat does not give the character permission to fight no matter what. It gives permission to pretend we have skipped to his fight phase and resolve him. So we get to step 1 and stop as there are no units in 1" for him to be eligible to fight.
So A Fight phase is as follows:
Step 1: determine who is eligible and the order of the fights is laid out here.
Eligible unit 1 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 2 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 3 goes through steps 2-6
Etc.
So A Fight phase is as follows:
Step 1: determine who is eligible and the order of the fights is laid out here.
Eligible unit 1 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 2 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 3 goes through steps 2-6
Etc.
But you haven't been given express permission to segment step 2-6 and call it THE fight portion of the phrase "fight as if it was fight phase."
So A Fight phase is as follows:
Step 1: determine who is eligible and the order of the fights is laid out here.
Eligible unit 1 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 2 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 3 goes through steps 2-6
Etc.
A Fight is step 5. (hitting, wounding)
I would also say you cant if you are not in one inch.
Because Fight phase is Step 1 to 6, and a "fight" is step 5.
Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.
So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.
Skcshan & Skullhopper: We do not need permission, it is in the rules(and no, it is not step 5)
It seems like no-one that is arguing against me is aware of what Step 1 even says.
rulebook, Fight phase, #1. Choose Unit to Fight With wrote:
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
See that ":" at the end? Step 2 starts right after that.
But let's break these rules down Sentence by Sentence:
"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." This tells us who is eligible to fight in the Fight phase.
"This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is." The Line that Galef accused me of being "obtuse" about. If the first sentence is in play, so is this one.
"All units that charged this turn fight first." This line pertains to my earlier 2 scenarios, wherein the Charging units had not finished fighting before the Strategem was activated So, again if all these rules apply; then the SM Character cannot fight.
"The player whose turn it is picks the order in which units fight." This is related to the last line, for strategems or abilities that allow a unit to Charge outside of their own Charge Phase. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
"After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each." Again, if Step 1 is part of the Strategem's rules then all units that are eligible may fight; but we know better, the strat does not create a full Fight phase.
"No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase." Pertaining to my second Scenario, if the SM Character already fought in the normal Fight Phase; he cannot fight again while Step 1 is active in this Fight phase.
"If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another." Irrelevant unless the Strat creates a full Fight phase(including step 1 here); then all eligible units must fight per the above rules.
"A fight is resolved in the following steps:" This is telling us that the Steps listed are what constitutes a fight in the Fight phase; Step 1 is not a part of this. You Pile in, Choose Targets, Choose Melee Weapon, Resolve combat attacks, and finally Consolidate. That is how you fight in the Fight phase.
Galef: I am going to ignore your last post because this one and the Strat telling us that the Model "fight(s) as if it were your Fight phase" is covered by the above and what constitutes Fighting(not step 1).
As odd as it sounds, it's very clear that step 1 is only describing the terms on which you can choose models to fight.
The stratagem clearly states that the model is chosen to fight therefore completing the first step. I would agree that if enemies were outside the pile-in range, then yes. No melee. but within that range, it sounds to me like it's legal.
Galef wrote: Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.
So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.
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Because the strat says he "can fight as though it was the fight phase", yes. The strat gives explicit permission for the model to fight. It doesnt say he can check to see if he can fight. It doesnt say test. It says can. Explicitly, can.
So, rules of the fight phase say
“Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.”
This is part of step 1.
The stratagem allows you to select a unit to fight out of the turns sequence. Yes, it satisfies the “select a unit” bit, but, it doesn’t ignore the criteria beforehand, requiring the model being selected to be within 1” of an enemy unit.
The strat does not replace step 1, only it allows you to make the step 1 “unit selection” out of sequence IF the criteria of being eligible to be selected is met.
Galef wrote: Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.
So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.
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Because the strat says he "can fight as though it was the fight phase", yes. The strat gives explicit permission for the model to fight. It doesnt say he can check to see if he can fight. It doesnt say test. It says can. Explicitly, can.
What is the fight phase? The fight phase is steps 1-6 of the battle primer. Just because the strat allows the model to fight out of sequence, doesn't mean it ignores whether or not it would be eligible to do so in the first place.
Kdash wrote: So, rules of the fight phase say
“Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.”
This is part of step 1.
The stratagem allows you to select a unit to fight out of the turns sequence. Yes, it satisfies the “select a unit” bit, but, it doesn’t ignore the criteria beforehand, requiring the model being selected to be within 1” of an enemy unit.
The strat does not replace step 1, only it allows you to make the step 1 “unit selection” out of sequence IF the criteria of being eligible to be selected is met.
Galef wrote: Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.
So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.
-
Because the strat says he "can fight as though it was the fight phase", yes. The strat gives explicit permission for the model to fight. It doesnt say he can check to see if he can fight. It doesnt say test. It says can. Explicitly, can.
What is the fight phase? The fight phase is steps 1-6 of the battle primer. Just because the strat allows the model to fight out of sequence, doesn't mean it ignores whether or not it would be eligible to do so in the first place.
The Strat doesn't allow you to select a unit out of sequence; it selects the unit for you. There is no step 1 involved. The Slain character is the only unit that will be fighting. It doesn't metter where he is on the board; if he is 7" from an enemy unit and you choose to fight(for some reason) he can pile in 3" and then cannot choose any targets so the fight is resolved right there and he is removed from the table.
I am just glad that this situation is, in theory, very, very rare.
The character will most likely be in combat when it is slain, therefore it will clearly be within 1" of an enemy, or the character will be killed by shooting and *fingers crossed* more than 4" away from an enemy.
I am also glad that this Strat isn't *too* powerful as I am willing to let my opponent be wrong and waste a Strat, rather than argue for 5 mins as to why they cannot use the Strat. Taking a few more attacks is worth avoiding the time wasted trying to convince someone how the rules work.
It comes up more than you'd think for me. Shooty armies tend to like to stand right next to him with a powerful unit (or flier) as they know they'll almost certainly kill him. I've had my smash captain kill farseers, fireblades and tau commanders with this (or just throw a decent amount of wounds onto an enemy vehicle for 2CP)
DoomMouse wrote: It comes up more than you'd think for me. Shooty armies tend to like to stand right next to him with a powerful unit (or flier) as they know they'll almost certainly kill him. I've had my smash captain kill farseers, fireblades and tau commanders with this (or just throw a decent amount of wounds onto an enemy vehicle for 2CP)
I get what you are saying, but honestly if they allow their Farseer, Fireblades or Commanders be that close, that was their mistake. Regardless of how I feel this rule should work, that is an inexcusable tactical error. I cannot remember a game (win or lose) in which my Farseer got within 12" if an enemy if I didn't want it. It's easy math to see where you need to be, how far the opponent can move and to not be in a bad spot. It also helps that my HQ has a 22" move.
I shot Roboute Gulliman to death with a Knight, who was positioned 3" away for a nice easy charge if the guns didn't work. Roboute failed his reincarnation and the reroll and died.
After the game, opponent realised this was a perfect opportunity for "only in death"
Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.
DoomMouse wrote: It comes up more than you'd think for me. Shooty armies tend to like to stand right next to him with a powerful unit (or flier) as they know they'll almost certainly kill him. I've had my smash captain kill farseers, fireblades and tau commanders with this (or just throw a decent amount of wounds onto an enemy vehicle for 2CP)
I get what you are saying, but honestly if they allow their Farseer, Fireblades or Commanders be that close, that was their mistake.
Regardless of how I feel this rule should work, that is an inexcusable tactical error.
I cannot remember a game (win or lose) in which my Farseer got within 12" if an enemy if I didn't want it. It's easy math to see where you need to be, how far the opponent can move and to not be in a bad spot. It also helps that my HQ has a 22" move.
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We'll, people don't necessarily see it coming when they have enough shooting to essentially guarantee a dead character (they're not expecting him to live til heroic intervention). I've also often had psykers need to get close so their smites aren't screened out by chaff units that will be more efficiently killed in the shooting phase. It can also be a little hard to avoid 5+ shield captains/smash captains when they're getting up in your face and in the centre of an opponents castle.
Galef wrote: If you are looking at the Strat as replacing step 1, sure, I might agree.
The issue is that no one is agreeing that the Strat does jack for step 1, other than to take out the optional "selection" part.
The way it reads, the Strat allows you to break the normal sequence and follow the Fight phase steps.
Step 1 selects a unit that has either charged or is within 1" of an enemy. The Strat selects the character automatically, but then immediately stops as you aren't allowed to go further
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We'll, I wouldn't say no one agrees, they're just letting him do the talking. There are 10 votes for yes.
I voted ambiguous and needs FAQ, but if I had to choose I'd agree with Kel's interpretation and logic.
Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.
Silentz wrote: Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.
All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action. It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.
Silentz wrote: Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.
All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action. It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.
You just said it did in your statement.
All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action.
It doesn't place it into the actual fight phase.
It grants it the action of fighting as though it was the fight phase.
It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.
See above. It (the stratagem) grants the unit (at which point the unit has been selected) out-of-turn action (fighting as though it was the fight phase i.e. pile in, etc etc...).
Cant find the SM one but here's a direct quote from the copy paste GK version:
"Use this Stratagem when a GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER is slain. Before removing it from the battlefield, that model can immediately either shoot as if it were his Shooting phase, or fight as if it were his Fight phase."
The stratagem merely allows you to act out of turn as if it's his turn to act. You still have to follow all the rules pertaining to each phases because you haven't been given express permission to ignore/count as having fulfilled certain parts/conditions of a phase.
A1) Honour the Chapter tells us a unit "can immediately fight again".
A2) Only In Death Does Duty End tells us a unit "can immediately fight"
Note: Reference to the fight phase for OIDDDE is only required since it could be triggered outside of the Fight phase, unlike HtC.
If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
In addition, Step 1 clearly states that "A fght is resolved in the following steps:", and then listing Steps 2 to 6.
So we can assume that "fight" is Steps 2 to 6, and that's it. Step 1 is just telling you how to pick a unit to fight with - which is being replaced by the Stratagems that instruct us to go to Step 2 ("fight").
Because of that, to me, the answer is "Yes" in the poll.
To be honest just from the poll results it's clear that a large proportion people disagree, so the right answer is probably 'Needs an FAQ'
Hope they answer it sometime as I'd very much like to start surprise-hammering people again. I'm personally going to assume the weaker version of the rule until they clarify otherwise
Sounds like time for people who care to email the GW Rules address:
When rules like Only in Death Does Duty End that allow a model to "fight as in the Fight Phase", does the model need to start within 1" of an enemy model to use this ability or can they pile-in to the nearest enemy model that is farther away and attack? If so, can they attack models they did not charge this turn if they charged in the Charge Phase?
nekooni wrote: If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
nekooni wrote: In addition, Step 1 clearly states that "A fght is resolved in the following steps:", and then listing Steps 2 to 6.
So we can assume that "fight" is Steps 2 to 6, and that's it. Step 1 is just telling you how to pick a unit to fight with - which is being replaced by the Stratagems that instruct us to go to Step 2 ("fight").
Because of that, to me, the answer is "Yes" in the poll.
Again, assumption as you're not told to skip step 1 0r count the usage of strategm as having replacing step 1. That's not how the rules work. Unless you are specifically told what you CAN do, you can't do it.
The implied suggested use for the stratagem seems to be if a character is slain during your opponent's turn, rather than not being able to do ANYTHING with it come your subsequent turn (since by then the model would have been removed), it allows you to make shooting attacks with it. But since you can't shoot if you were within 1" of enemy units, and since people will be really mad if being in combat prevents/makes this stratagem useless by only being allowed to fire pistols, if you were killed in combat (where shooting attacks cannot be made) you get to swing instead.
Note how the stratagem doesn't override the general 'you can't perform the same action twice in a turn' provision - so if you died to a plasma overheat, you don't get to shoot with him again using the stratagem. Same thing with fighting - if you were killed after swinging in combat, you cannot use this stratagem to make another round of swings before removing the character.
nekooni wrote: If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
The problem with that argument is that by saying that you are specifically told you can fight again nulls the restriction about not fighting more than once, then you should have to accept that if you are told you can fight it would specifically nulls the other restrictions about fighting in step 1. It's inconsistent to say otherwise.
nekooni wrote: If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
The problem with that argument is that by saying that you are specifically told you can fight again nulls the restriction about not fighting more than once, then you should have to accept that if you are told you can fight it would specifically nulls the other restrictions about fighting in step 1. It's inconsistent to say otherwise.
No because the FAQ clarifies that when you fight again, you go through the ENTIRE fight phase. This includes step 1. It just happens so that the only way you can possibly fight again is if you've already fought, and if you've already fought by being eligible to fight in the first place.
From rulebook FAQ, pg 6
Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.
Unless the stratagem comes with a line that says "Do not select a unit to fight with", you have to go through step 1.
nekooni wrote: If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
The problem with that argument is that by saying that you are specifically told you can fight again nulls the restriction about not fighting more than once, then you should have to accept that if you are told you can fight it would specifically nulls the other restrictions about fighting in step 1. It's inconsistent to say otherwise.
No because the FAQ clarifies that when you fight again, you go through the ENTIRE fight phase. This includes step 1. It just happens so that the only way you can possibly fight again is if you've already fought, and if you've already fought by being eligible to fight in the first place.
From rulebook FAQ, pg 6
Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.
Unless the stratagem comes with a line that says "Do not select a unit to fight with", you have to go through step 1.
And step 1 says you can't fight if you've already fought.
nekooni wrote: And step 1 says you can't fight if you've already fought.
Then I guess the whole fight again rule doesn't work if you refuse to understand that specific overrides general. You are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again.
This means that if you wiped out your enemy unit and did not charge (i.e. the fight was brought to you or you started the fight phase locked in combat) and no longer have any units within 1", the unit cannot fight again via fight again stratagem as it no longer satisfies step 1 (Charged? No. Has enemy within 1"? No).
The more you divert and digress this into fight again rules, more your original argument become less convincing.
Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
nekooni wrote: And step 1 says you can't fight if you've already fought.
Then I guess the whole fight again rule doesn't work if you refuse to understand that specific overrides general. You are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again.
This means that if you wiped out your enemy unit and did not charge (i.e. the fight was brought to you or you started the fight phase locked in combat) and no longer have any units within 1", the unit cannot fight again via fight again stratagem as it no longer satisfies step 1 (Charged? No. Has enemy within 1"? No).
The more you divert and digress this into fight again rules, more your original argument become less convincing.
Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
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Xenomancers wrote: Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
nekooni wrote: Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
nekooni wrote: Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
I'm pretty sure the fight twice Stratagems don't have a shooting component. And if those get to ignore the restrictions of step one, then other similar stratagems do too, at least if you want it to be consistent.
In short my argument is that if you're a valid target for a Stratagem that tells you you're allowed to fight that unit, this overrides the limitations of step 1.because you've been told this unit gets to fight.
nekooni wrote: Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
100% this. It’s a colloquially-worded Stratagem and the meaning is clear. If you have to delve into ‘overriding Step 1’ etc. to make something fit you’ve probably gone too far.
nekooni wrote: Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
I'm pretty sure the fight twice Stratagems don't have a shooting component. And if those get to ignore the restrictions of step one, then other similar stratagems do too, at least if you want it to be consistent.
In short my argument is that if you're a valid target for a Stratagem that tells you you're allowed to fight that unit, this overrides the limitations of step 1.because you've been told this unit gets to fight.
And it's been brought to light for you countless times, it has been clarified by GW via FAQ that "fighting" is going through all steps of the fight phase, despite being selected to fight or fight twice or fight again via abilites or stratagems, you need to go through step 1 and select them again and check for qualifying conditions for being able to fight.
The fact that you think the stratagem allows units with enemy units within 1" to shoot normally wih all guns just goes to show you're willing to bend all core mechanics just to make the rule work as you say it does..
nekooni wrote: Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
I'm pretty sure the fight twice Stratagems don't have a shooting component. And if those get to ignore the restrictions of step one, then other similar stratagems do too, at least if you want it to be consistent.
In short my argument is that if you're a valid target for a Stratagem that tells you you're allowed to fight that unit, this overrides the limitations of step 1.because you've been told this unit gets to fight.
And it's been brought to light for you countless times, it has been clarified by GW via FAQ that "fighting" is going through all steps of the fight phase, despite being selected to fight or fight twice or fight again via abilites or stratagems, you need to go through step 1 and select them again and check for qualifying conditions for being able to fight.
The fact that you think the stratagem allows units with enemy units within 1" to shoot normally wih all guns just goes to show you're willing to bend all core mechanics just to make the rule work as you say it does..
So if you have to go through that again, how do you resolve Honour the Chapter successfully within the rules given? By ignoring the qualifying conditions of step 1, or by applying them?
nekooni wrote: So if you have to go through that again, how do you resolve Honour the Chapter successfully within the rules given? By ignoring the qualifying conditions of step 1, or by applying them?
HtC lets you override the specific number of times a unit can fight in a given phase. It doesn't give you permissio. to bypass the entire step. Fight [only once] turns into [one more time].
OiDDDE overrides the specific order in which units take turn, much like counter offensi e stratagem to interrupt normal sequence. In OiDDDE, A player's [turn is played out in its entirety] to a player's [turn can be interrupted when he slays an enemy charcter].
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Beyond your other nonsense wrong, the Strat generates a "your" Fight Phase for the unit to fight in (outside of the your Fight phase you may have already been in, or it is your Fight Phase during the enemy Fight phase), so fighting twice is absolutely a possibility.
On top of that, You yourself have stated(to nekooni) that specific overrides general: the Character under OIDDDE has specific allowance to fight as if it were your fight phase. You are specifically told the character can fight.
Xenomancers wrote: Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
Except its obvious rai that the thing that determines if you can shoot is not step 1 but step 2. Which weapon you choose to shoot with. Granted, thats not raw. But then, raw, you can never shoot pistols within 1" or assault weapons after advancing either.
Xenomancers wrote: Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
Yes; I would absolutely allow the hellblaster to "shoot me in the face" upon death within range and after rolling sufficiently high to do so. Relic banner doesn't change anything other than +1 to proc, so I am not sure why you specified relic banner vs any f-ing ancient.
Banners require Range and a roll. OIDDDE requires CP expenditure. yes; I would/will allow both to be used for whichever attacks(which then require hit and wound rolls).
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Beyond your other nonsense wrong, the Strat generates a "your" Fight Phase for the unit to fight in (outside of the your Fight phase you may have already been in, or it is your Fight Phase during the enemy Fight phase), so fighting twice is absolutely a possibility.
On top of that, You yourself have stated(to nekooni) that specific overrides general: the Character under OIDDDE has specific allowance to fight as if it were your fight phase. You are specifically told the character can fight.
Except the fact that GW is clear on what constitutes "fight" and that it encompasses al7l steps of a fight phase. So whatever and however you play at your own local meta thats RAI and not RAW. There's no issue with playing the game RAI as the game hinges upon the "most important rule" bir as RAW, there's nothing "nonsensical" about what I have said in this thread. As I have told you before, please adhere to the tenets of this forum. This isn't where you try to belittle people for trying to explain what the rule says literally.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
Step 1 says you can't fight twice, and you can only fight if within 1'' or if you've charged this turn.
OIDDDE says "you can fight", so does the Banner, so does HtC. Only HtC includes an "again" clause.
If you can ignore the "can't fight twice" part for OIDDDE, why can't I ignore the range requirement, too? That honestly doesn't make any sense to me - did I misread something you wrote?
I mean I'm not saying you get to strike at a unit 10 inches away, obviously (since that's not part of step 1 anyway), but that you could consolidate into a unit that's 3 inches away and strike at that. Feels good from a "style" perspective and is consistent across OIDDDE, HtC and Banners.
that being said I'd say this clearly can be interpreted in multiple ways and that's always a good candidate for an FAQ entry.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Beyond your other nonsense wrong, the Strat generates a "your" Fight Phase for the unit to fight in (outside of the your Fight phase you may have already been in, or it is your Fight Phase during the enemy Fight phase), so fighting twice is absolutely a possibility.
On top of that, You yourself have stated(to nekooni) that specific overrides general: the Character under OIDDDE has specific allowance to fight as if it were your fight phase. You are specifically told the character can fight.
Except the fact that GW is clear on what constitutes "fight" and that it encompasses al7l steps of a fight phase. So whatever and however you play at your own local meta thats RAI and not RAW. There's no issue with playing the game RAI as the game hinges upon the "most important rule" bir as RAW, there's nothing "nonsensical" about what I have said in this thread. As I have told you before, please adhere to the tenets of this forum. This isn't where you try to belittle people for trying to explain what the rule says literally.
Well, you are half right; GW is clear on what constitutes a fight.
It just isn't all steps. It is 2-6. You never go back to 1 in the Fight phase. You use the rules in 1 to move from step 6 to the next unit's step 2.
Kommissar Kel wrote: It just isn't all steps. It is 2-6. You never go back to 1 in the Fight phase. You use the rules in 1 to move from step 6 to the next unit's step 2.
But this concept of "pre-selection" youre referring to doesn't exist as clarified in the FAQ I quoted above. When you are told you can fight, it means to go through all of the steps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nekooni wrote: Only HtC includes an "again" clause.
If you can ignore the "can't fight twice" part for OIDDDE, why can't I ignore the range requirement, too?
Because you can't ignore the "can't fight twice" clause in step 1 with OiDDDE or banners. There are specific mechanics that allow you to fight more than once, i.e. HtC, BftBG. OiDDDE is not one of them.
Kommissar Kel wrote: It just isn't all steps. It is 2-6. You never go back to 1 in the Fight phase. You use the rules in 1 to move from step 6 to the next unit's step 2.
But this concept of "pre-selection" youre referring to doesn't exist as clarified in the FAQ I quoted above. When you are told you can fight, it means to go through all of the steps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nekooni wrote: Only HtC includes an "again" clause.
If you can ignore the "can't fight twice" part for OIDDDE, why can't I ignore the range requirement, too?
Because you can't ignore the "can't fight twice" clause in step 1 with OiDDDE or banners. There are specific mechanics that allow you to fight more than once, i.e. HtC, BftBG. OiDDDE is not one of them.
It helps if you don't remove 99% of the context. I was responding to Johnny who claimed that HtC allows a second round of fighting for a unit, but wouldn't allow it to ignore other conditions within Step 1 - at least that's what I think he's saying.
Which can't be correct. I can get the notion of "you have to go through the conditions listed in Step 1" if it considers all of the conditions, but cherry-picking (like Johnny apparently does) makes zero sense to me. I'd rather play it like you suggested, even though I still don't think you have to check Step 1's condition. The FAQ doesn't refer to the steps, it says "you pick a unit, then ..." - and the stratagem tells us to pick what unit. Step 1 is purely "pick a unit according to these rules, then fight it as described in 2-6, then return here and pick the next unit".
HIWPI is that if you're eligible to be the target of the Stratagem or Effect that'll allow you to fight, you're allowed to fight.
RAW it needs a FAQ entry to be clear.
After looking back to thr Designer's Commentary; I am completely changing my position.
They make it clear in there that a unit not within 1", which started the phase within 1" cannot be chosen to fight.
They also state that a unit which did not start the Fight phase within 1"(and didn't charge), can be chosen to fight if an enemy unit had piled in or consolidated to within 1" of them.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
At which point none of the stratatgems that let you fight again can work, because they have been FAQ'd to indicate that it has to follow all 6 steps, and the first step keeps them from fighting again because they already fought once. RAI you get to, but RAW the FAQ doesn't state that the line in step 1 is not overridden by the stratagem. As it is, it looks like people are arguing that you're allowed to ignore part of step 1 for fight again but not for a stratagem that just lets you fight, which looks like they are not being treated equally. This really could use a FAQ for GW to make clear how they want it handled, as the argument could go either way.
Kommissar Kel wrote: After looking back to thr Designer's Commentary; I am completely changing my position.
They make it clear in there that a unit not within 1", which started the phase within 1" cannot be chosen to fight.
They also state that a unit which did not start the Fight phase within 1"(and didn't charge), can be chosen to fight if an enemy unit had piled in or consolidated to within 1" of them.
Both are in page 2 in the second column.
Yeah, that's nothing new. But that's kinda the whole point of this discussion - my stance is that you don't choose the unit as described in Step 1 because it's chosen by the Stratagem, which has it's own, specific requirements.
Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
Did or did you not state that OIDDDE would work even after that unit had already attacked? Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought you said that it does work.
nekooni wrote: So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
And no, I'm not cherry-picking which part of Step 1 I get to ignore, I'm saying it's overridden/ignored due to the Stratagem saying the unit gets to fight. IIRC the last sentence from Step 1 is pretty clear about what is or isn't "fighting" - so I'm ignoring the entire Step 1. You - unless I misunderstood - ignore only part of Step 1, for some reason.
doctortom wrote: As it is, it looks like people are arguing that you're allowed to ignore part of step 1 for fight again but not for a stratagem that just lets you fight, which looks like they are not being treated equally. This really could use a FAQ for GW to make clear how they want it handled, as the argument could go either way.
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase within a fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
That’s literally what the Stratagem does, no?
This particular case, I think, brings us back to the "[INSERT PHASE] phase" vs "as if [INSERT PHASE] phase" debate. Can you have an "as if fight phase" when it is currently already your actual fight phase?
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
That’s literally what the Stratagem does, no?
This particular case, I think, brings us back to the "[INSERT PHASE] phase" vs "as if [INSERT PHASE] phase" debate. Can you have an "as if fight phase" when it is currently already your actual fight phase?
I think that's rather easy to answer: you deal with it as if it was the fight phase. since it's already the fight phase, it doesn't change a thing. It doesn't say you get a new fight phase.
The whole point of the "as if it's XY phase" clause is that it allows e.g. Fight stuff to properly happen outside of the Fight phase, e.g. "reroll 1s toHit in the shooting phase" working during Overwatch. It's not part of e.g. HtC since that's always used in the fight phase, and therefore unneccessary.
JohnnyHell wrote: Fight again specifically overrides the ‘can only fight once’ restriction, due to plain English - “fight again” - but doesn’t override the other Fight Phase rules.
Shoot/Fight due to dying allows you to Shoot if you meet other criteria for being able to Shoot (notably not being within 1” of an enemy unit), or Fight if you meet the other criteria of the Fight Phase rules (notably being within 1” of an enemy unit).
I see no inconsistency or cherry-picking here. Indeed, it’s the opposite as it satisfies *all* rules, including the special permissions granted by the banner/Stratagem/whatever. Ironically, the chap accusing me of cherry-picking is himself choosing to ignore part of a rule with no permission to do so.
He' referring to your statement on how OiDDDE can be used to essentially grant another fight phase in a turn so you can fight twice in certain circumstances.
That’s literally what the Stratagem does, no?
It says you get to fight. It doesn't say you get to fight again.
Spoiler:
Just as a disclaimer: that's not how I would play it, I'm just trying to understand your position. I still think all of the stratagems we're talking about allow you to fight, and that it doesn't matter if they contain a "fight as if it was the fight phase", a "fight again" or a mere "can fight".
nekooni wrote: I think that's rather easy to answer: you deal with it as if it was the fight phase. since it's already the fight phase, it doesn't change a thing. It doesn't say you get a new fight phase.
The whole point of the "as if it's XY phase" clause is that it allows e.g. Fight stuff to properly happen outside of the Fight phase, e.g. "reroll 1s toHit in the shooting phase" working during Overwatch. It's not part of e.g. HtC since that's always used in the fight phase, and therefore unneccessary.
This is my stance as well. But as this is undeterminable from the RAW, for the most part this issue needs to rely on RAI.
skchsan wrote: ... for the most part this issue needs to rely on RAI.
Even though so far I am against using this Strat to fight if you aren't already within 1" by RAW, I am totally for using it as such RAI.
It's pretty clear RAI that the Character is meant to lash out for one more attack before being slain. A rule technicality preventing it from doing so is pretty lame and goes against the spirit of the game (which is to roll dice, have fun, and have for crazy stuff happen that's worthy of a BL story)
In a casual game, I wouldn't bat an eye at someone using it if outside 1" of an enemy. It's fun and meant to happen.
If, however, in a tournament setting it would have an affect on my standing personally, I might call a TO over to get a final ruling.
