So, the rules are out (if a bit blurry) and we finally get some answers on list construction for IG. Alas, Marbo remains lurking in the shadows, so how do we win? Throw down a horde of guardsmen and trust in sheer weight of dice? Storm troopers seem interesting, but that -1 penalty on short-range guns hurts. Snipers are cheap, should we just set up a bunch of them and fish for 6s?

(We all know that when Marbo is released there will be no other option, He will slaughter everything in His path as a single-model kill team. But we do need to try to win some other way until then.)

I'll take The Last Chancers in differing loadouts until Marbo shows up. Win? Probably not.

I honestly think that 20 guardsmen with baseline equipment would be fun to try to make work, in a Mystery Men-esque "we're the other guys" kind of way.

That said, my standard infantry squads have been using a flamer and vox, so I kinda warming to that. Here's a tentative for you to pick apart:

Sergeant Bob Guardsman
-Plasma Pistol
-Power Sword
Guardsman
-Flamer
Guardsman
-Voxcaster
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman

Special Weapons Guardsman
-Grenade launcher
Special Weapons Guardsman
-Melta
Special Weapons Guardsman
-Sniper
Guardsman
Guardsman

Tempestus Scion

Run the voxie with comms, the scion as a medic. Sixteen Guardsmen for 100 points on the dot.

Plus I build these guys out of tempestus and genestealer parts so the remaining four guys I can kit out differently and swap them in for other weapons. Considering two plasma, a second sniper and second flamer.

IMO melta isn't worth it, not in the current game. D6 damage is underwhelming when hardly anything has multiple wounds, and with only 12" range you're almost always going to be taking the -1 to hit penalty.

The GMG review mentions that you can at maximum start with 12 members of your Kill Team, so they put a plug in spamming, at least a little at the beginning.
Also what I could understand, you can have a lot of members of the team, but you can only pick up to 100pts for each missson.
It's unclear to me if that last bit is an actual rule for all missions, or just the starting one(s).

Spiky Norman wrote:
The GMG review mentions that you can at maximum start with 12 members of your Kill Team, so they put a plug in spamming, at least a little at the beginning.
Also what I could understand, you can have a lot of members of the team, but you can only pick up to 100pts for each missson.
It's unclear to me if that last bit is an actual rule for all missions, or just the starting one(s).

That's for the narrative game. For matched play, which I suspect the majority of KT games will be, you create a new 100 point list for each game with a maximum of 20 models.

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO melta isn't worth it, not in the current game. D6 damage is underwhelming when hardly anything has multiple wounds, and with only 12" range you're almost always going to be taking the -1 to hit penalty.

I hadn't heard of a -1 to hit penalty, does that also affect rapid fire weapons?

Rough.

Do I slip in a plasma or a flamer to fill that gap?

The -1 to hit penalty is a general rule, though sniper rifles have a special rule in their statline to ignore it.

Also the mortal wound generation for a sniper is on the wound roll so minuses to hit don't affect it.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I hadn't heard of a -1 to hit penalty, does that also affect rapid fire weapons?

Anything over half range counts as "long range" and imposes a -1 penalty to hit. That's not crippling on a 24" weapon where you probably want to get to 12" for rapid fire anyway, but when your starting range is only 12" you're taking that penalty on anything over 6" and you only have a single shot. Melta is going to be really hard to deliver effectively, especially against anything that can threaten a charge if you get up close, and the benefits over plasma are pretty marginal when very few models have multiple wounds.

I've not got a great photo to go off of yet, but working plan is a plasma pistol/powerfist sarge, a much plasma as I can get (which appears to be 4 with regular guardsmen) and then ????? Profit fill in the rest with regular guardsmen. Oh, and a box caster, because that seems borderline mandatory for such low ld models.

I'm very annoyed that we have no medic option and no bolter option for the Sarge. Both options are in the command box so it makes no sense to omit them. I'm also annoyed literally the only option we get for generic guardsmen is lasguns. No shotgun vets, no cqc guardsmen for breaching, just lasguns. It means our teams will look very samey and basically devolve into spam other than special weapons choices. As the special weapons are unchanged from 8th, I don't see much use for any except the plasma gun, sniper rifle, maybe a flamer, and the hotshot volleygun for scions.

Volleyguns in particular I think will be nasty in kill team. It's got good volume of fire, can be given a lot of specialist abilities to up it's already sizable firepower, and can be nasty against clumped up enemies. For scions especially I'd say they have as much merit as plasma, enough that I'd at least consider a 50/50 split.

Tactics seem pretty basic, guardsmen screen, special weapons pick targets very carefully from range while minimizing return fire, and the officer and vox stay in the back to keep up morale and orders. Guardsmen will have to be used very intelligently to not trigger early broken conditions while simultaneously screening more valuable soldiers from the enemy.

Yeah, the lack of IG options is pretty disappointing, especially the vets. GW is really pushing their new Militarum™ Trademarkus™ Shooterists™ as the elite IG unit at the expense of veterans, no doubt because the veterans don't have a specific kit (and future codex) to sell. Fortunately there don't seem to be any significant changes in our unit rules, so you could very easily house rule in a veteran squad. I'm looking forward to doing the same with some DKoK engineers and death riders.

Done some more reading, a vox caster is absolutely necessary, and you want him to be a comms specialist. The crazy amount of synergy a comms specialist will give a guard list is crazy. They provide morale, command points, and shooting buffs, they're just about perfect. They're not flashy, but they will win games for you in my opinion. Even a level 1 comms guardsman allows you to add to the BS of one model and gain bonus LD. He's like having a second officer in a way.

As for your other 2 slots, it will really depend on if we can take multiples of one specialization. Sniper is an obvious choice since we rely on shooting, but one potentially useful skill is a scout of some kind. They start out kind of underwhelming but if you can get them some experience they can provide very powerful buffs to shooting and determining which missions you get in campaigns. I worry guardsmen may be too squishy to survive long as a scout, but with the "get down" strat who knows, it may not be that crazy.

The more I look at the abilities, the more I feel I want buff characters and then just generic special weapons. Properly placed buff specialists can hide out of LOS, buff your whole list, and allow you to be more aggressive with weapons like plasma. For example, a well placed scout can give your whole list reroll 1's if they target models within 6" of the scout. It may turn out this is more useful than just maxing out on Gunner abilities for plasma gunners, but I'll need to play some games to find out.

The main reason I say this is because unless you plan to run a whole squad of Stormtroopers, you will be running a lot of bog standard guardsmen. Anything that provides blanket buffs and abilities with aura affects will affect us more than most of the other factions. And since we know hordes have a good chance of being popular in kill team, having ways to buff our lasguns will be handy. We have no access to FRFSRF, so if you just go all in on specialist plasma and snipers, you will find yourself overrun by a horde very quickly.

I'm planning on running an all Scions KT:

Tempestor (Power Fist, Plasma Pistol) - 13 pts
Scions (Hotshot Lasguns) - 9 x 2 = 18 pts
Scion (Voxcaster, Hotshot Lasgun) - 14 pts
Scion Gunner (Plasma Gun) - 13 x 2 = 26 pts
Scion Gunner (Hotshot Volley Gun) - 13 x 2 = 26 pts

Total: 97 pts

Vox Scion is a Comms specialist, one of the Plasma Gunners is a Sniper, one of the Hotshot Volley Gunners is a Heavy. I feel like this squad is gonna hit hard and likely die hard in turn much like Scions in fluff. Plasma Guns for heavy targets, Volley Guns for hordes. Comms specialist is definitely going to be necessary for the nerve test rerolls and bonus to hit rolls that the Gunners will appreciate. The Sniper Plasma Gunner is likely going to be pretty self sufficient as will the Heavy Gunner with maybe a Take Aim order thrown his way. We're definitely going to be CP hungry and the Comms specialist is going to help with that.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Done some more reading, a vox caster is absolutely necessary, and you want him to be a comms specialist. The crazy amount of synergy a comms specialist will give a guard list is crazy. They provide morale, command points, and shooting buffs, they're just about perfect. They're not flashy, but they will win games for you in my opinion. Even a level 1 comms guardsman allows you to add to the BS of one model and gain bonus LD. He's like having a second officer in a way.

This. Comms specialist is the most powerful one, by far. A straight +1 to hit for any model, including the comms specialist, is one of the best specialist buffs and you get it at level 1. And if you're playing a campaign it only gets better from there. Your first specialist is almost always going to be comms, probably on a storm trooper so you can apply the +1 buff to a meaningful gun even if nobody else is nearby.

For example, a well placed scout can give your whole list reroll 1's if they target models within 6" of the scout.

The downside is this only works in extended campaigns where you get to level up your specialists. In matched play, which I suspect will be the majority of KT games, you only get the base ability. And that base ability is really weak compared to a sniper getting a flat 16% more firepower and a 1 CP buff for +1 to hit. Even in campaigns that scout is going to be pretty underwhelming as you level it up, while the sniper just gets extra firepower at each step of the tree.

We have no access to FRFSRF, so if you just go all in on specialist plasma and snipers, you will find yourself overrun by a horde very quickly.

I don't think it's quite that bad. With all the -1 modifiers to everything generic guardsmen are really bad at killing stuff. You easily get 6s to hit, 5s to wound, full armor save, and a -1 penalty to convert that wound into a kill, with one shot per model. A sniper rifle is cheap and gives you 5s to hit, 4s to wound (with 1/3 of those being automatic wounds), and an extra 12" range with the same single shot per model. Even within 12" the lasgun isn't impressing. IMO if you're taking basic guardsmen at all instead of storm troopers your first purchase is going to be four sniper rifles and you consider upgrading from there.

 Peregrine wrote:

I don't think it's quite that bad. With all the -1 modifiers to everything generic guardsmen are really bad at killing stuff. You easily get 6s to hit, 5s to wound, full armor save, and a -1 penalty to convert that wound into a kill, with one shot per model. A sniper rifle is cheap and gives you 5s to hit, 4s to wound (with 1/3 of those being automatic wounds), and an extra 12" range with the same single shot per model. Even within 12" the lasgun isn't impressing. IMO if you're taking basic guardsmen at all instead of storm troopers your first purchase is going to be four sniper rifles and you consider upgrading from there.

Exactly why I'm running full Scions They hit on 3+ which is as good as it gets in KT and their hotshot lasguns have AP -2 and in a game where few units have invulnerable saves every point of AP is worth it. They hit hard in close/medium range which helps in KT's overall smaller board size and they're cheap enough so they'll outnumber the more "elite" armies like Space Marines and other similar armies. Having a decent 4+ armor save doesn't hurt either and you can tell them to Get Down to make them a bit hardier.

You can’t run more than 12 models. Guard is pretty much hosed without or tanks.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I honestly think that 20 guardsmen with baseline equipment would be fun to try to make work, in a Mystery Men-esque "we're the other guys" kind of way.

That said, my standard infantry squads have been using a flamer and vox, so I kinda warming to that. Here's a tentative for you to pick apart:

Sergeant Bob Guardsman
-Plasma Pistol
-Power Sword
Guardsman
-Flamer
Guardsman
-Voxcaster
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman
Guardsman

Special Weapons Guardsman
-Grenade launcher
Special Weapons Guardsman
-Melta
Special Weapons Guardsman
-Sniper
Guardsman
Guardsman

Tempestus Scion

Run the voxie with comms, the scion as a medic. Sixteen Guardsmen for 100 points on the dot.

Plus I build these guys out of tempestus and genestealer parts so the remaining four guys I can kit out differently and swap them in for other weapons. Considering two plasma, a second sniper and second flamer.

Is that a Kill Team general rule that you're not allowed more than 12 models? Last I heard you were allowed 3-20 depending on point restrictions.

Is 12 max I played today at GW store. Guard are not a prime contender imo... smokes a netlist Scion army with my Deathwatch today. The game is geared towards fun play imo.

 Primark G wrote:
Is 12 max I played today at GW store.

Key point: GW store. The actual rulebook, which we have copies of already, states that the limit is 20 models (and 100 points) for matched play games. The 12-model rule is that in the default narrative campaign your roster (which you build each game's kill team from, using up to 20 models) starts at up to 12 models but can grow from there using the rules for adding reinforcements, and even grow past 20 models. If you aren't playing an ongoing campaign then you just build a 100 point kill team with up to 20 models, the campaign rules wouldn't be used.

20 models defeats the spirit of the game. Do you want to game it?

 Primark G wrote:
20 models defeats the spirit of the game. Do you want to game it?

Uh, lol? Taking a perfectly legal army under the stated rules of the game, from a faction that lore-wise emphasizes mass numbers and has a preview emphasizing the ability to out-number an opposing kill team, is somehow "defeating the spirit of the game"? Sorry, but I'll play the game as-written, and not care about your weird self-imposed rules about what is "gaming it".

I’m pretty sure you can’t take more than 12 models. Was looking at the rulebook yesterday at the GW store.

 Primark G wrote:
I’m pretty sure you can’t take more than 12 models. Was looking at the rulebook yesterday at the GW store.

There is a photo up on Bolter & Chainsword, where you can see the rules for Matched Play and Battleforged Kill Teams, and from what I can see, you can pick up to 20 models along with some additional rules on max one leader etc.

Check out the post here:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345264-kill-team-returns/?p=5128436

 Primark G wrote:
20 models defeats the spirit of the game. Do you want to game it?

I would love to take less than 20 guardsmen, if only we had a unit that represented more elite and well trained regular guardsmen who would be selected for just this kind of occasion that wasn't the stormtrooper squad...

SOME SORT OF VETERAN UNIT PERHAPS

So yeah, if IG want to run regular guardsmen without scions (like I do) we don't get a choice. You kit out the Sarge, take Max special weapons and a vox and then from there you fill in the rest with bog standard guardsmen. Without all the vet options and gear we don't get a choice, and mixing scions with guardsmen just doesn't feel right.

Spiky Norman wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I’m pretty sure you can’t take more than 12 models. Was looking at the rulebook yesterday at the GW store.

There is a photo up on Bolter & Chainsword, where you can see the rules for Matched Play and Battleforged Kill Teams, and from what I can see, you can pick up to 20 models along with some additional rules on max one leader etc.

Check out the post here:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345264-kill-team-returns/?p=5128436

Thanks Spiky!

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I'm planning on running an all Scions KT:

Tempestor (Power Fist, Plasma Pistol) - 13 pts
Scions (Hotshot Lasguns) - 9 x 2 = 18 pts
Scion (Voxcaster, Hotshot Lasgun) - 14 pts
Scion Gunner (Plasma Gun) - 13 x 2 = 26 pts
Scion Gunner (Hotshot Volley Gun) - 13 x 2 = 26 pts

Total: 97 pts

Vox Scion is a Comms specialist, one of the Plasma Gunners is a Sniper, one of the Hotshot Volley Gunners is a Heavy. I feel like this squad is gonna hit hard and likely die hard in turn much like Scions in fluff. Plasma Guns for heavy targets, Volley Guns for hordes. Comms specialist is definitely going to be necessary for the nerve test rerolls and bonus to hit rolls that the Gunners will appreciate. The Sniper Plasma Gunner is likely going to be pretty self sufficient as will the Heavy Gunner with maybe a Take Aim order thrown his way. We're definitely going to be CP hungry and the Comms specialist is going to help with that.

Nice list, I think that will be what I roll as well.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
20 models defeats the spirit of the game. Do you want to game it?

I would love to take less than 20 guardsmen, if only we had a unit that represented more elite and well trained regular guardsmen who would be selected for just this kind of occasion that wasn't the stormtrooper squad...

SOME SORT OF VETERAN UNIT PERHAPS

So yeah, if IG want to run regular guardsmen without scions (like I do) we don't get a choice. You kit out the Sarge, take Max special weapons and a vox and then from there you fill in the rest with bog standard guardsmen. Without all the vet options and gear we don't get a choice, and mixing scions with guardsmen just doesn't feel right.

An elite and well-trained regular guardsman is a guardsman with the Veteran specialization. None of the armies got their "the troop choice, but more elite" choices either for the same reason (Sternguard and Chosen are excluded, for example).

I intend to be taking a power sword/plasma Sarge, a Pfist /plasma tempestor, vox, then as many Flamers as I can fit.

Can split the Flamers between anything within 2-3" of the target, don't need to worry about bad BS, and can use Sir, Yes Sir! And allow a full blob to receive buffs.

iirc.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
I'm planning on running an all Scions KT:

Tempestor (Power Fist, Plasma Pistol) - 13 pts
Scions (Hotshot Lasguns) - 9 x 2 = 18 pts
Scion (Voxcaster, Hotshot Lasgun) - 14 pts
Scion Gunner (Plasma Gun) - 13 x 2 = 26 pts
Scion Gunner (Hotshot Volley Gun) - 13 x 2 = 26 pts

Total: 97 pts

Vox Scion is a Comms specialist, one of the Plasma Gunners is a Sniper, one of the Hotshot Volley Gunners is a Heavy. I feel like this squad is gonna hit hard and likely die hard in turn much like Scions in fluff. Plasma Guns for heavy targets, Volley Guns for hordes. Comms specialist is definitely going to be necessary for the nerve test rerolls and bonus to hit rolls that the Gunners will appreciate. The Sniper Plasma Gunner is likely going to be pretty self sufficient as will the Heavy Gunner with maybe a Take Aim order thrown his way. We're definitely going to be CP hungry and the Comms specialist is going to help with that.

That's pretty much the exact same list i came up with after getting my copy of the book. Though i'm considering ditching the pistol and powerfist and switching in a SW trooper with a sniper rifle fro some extra ranged capability.

I'm hoping to give it a test drive tomorrow! Although with melee being more viable in KT, I think swapping out one of the gunners with a Flamer might not be a bad idea. Might decide to pick up another box of Scions or the AM KT box to fill out my combat roster for when I play campaign. Something tells me you want models beyond your KT when you're playing campaign since you'll need recruits and units may end up being out of action/killed. Am I right to assume this?

I think so yeah. Having had a further read of the book something to take note of is that unspecialised models form fireteams consisting of their data cards (eg 2 scions is 1 fireteam, 2 Guardsmen are another), and you gain an extra point of experience if you have 2 or more models from a fireteam be on the board and survive the mission. The upgrades you get from levelling up seem to apply to the whole fireteam as well, so it seems like we'll want to avoid cases of having just 1 type of guy.

That said higher level troops cost more so there's probably some benefit to having a pool of low level troops to go for a quantity over quality approach. For narrative campaigns at least.

Sergeant (Leader) -- 7
Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

Tempestor (Veteran) -- 12
Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

Guardsman (Comms) -- 10
Vox

Scion Gunner (Sniper) -- 13
Hot Shot Volley Gun

Guardsman Gunner -- 8
Flamer

Guardsman Gunner -- 8
Flamer

Guardsman Gunner -- 8
Flamer

Guardsman -- 8
Flamer

5x Guardsmen OR 2x Scion Gunners with Hot Shot Volley, Plasma, or Flamers. (20 Man roster could have 2 of each to tailor, as well as a third volley gun option to swap out for the tempestor to complete the roster of 20)

Opinions?

Trying to clear things up, are Leaders able to issue orders to themselves? Voice of Command states it can issue an order to "another friendly Astra Militarum model", "another" implies a model other than the Leader himself.

Correct. Has to be a different one. However, if you use Sir, Yes Sir! And are within the bubble, it seems it would be likely that it hits the Leader in that scenario.

Played a game on launch day (part of a series they were running in the store but couldn't stay for more) with a sort of quick, slapped-together list because I didn't finish converting all the scions and weapon specialists I wanted to take:

Tempestor - Power Fist, Veteran
Sergeant - Las pistol, Chainsword, Leader
Gunner - Flamer, Demolitions
Guardsman - Vox Caster, Communications
And 13 regular guardsmen.

They were the few, the proud, the many.

Some quick takeaways:
-Demo on flamer is wonderful.
-Low leadership and general weakness means you are more reliant on bunching up to help your leadership tests than other armies, the vox let's your army reroll them so take him and keep him safe!
-With enough bodies you can secure the upper floor of a ruin, firing down with impunity, or, if you can't secure it fully, at least have an easier time controlling who the enemy tries to charge.
-The only order I used the whole game was 'Fix Bayonettes' but I used it every round from 2 on.
-That order, by itself, is a source for awesome upsets, Private Robert got left behind (and definitely wasn't bait) and killed a charging gaunt before combat started proper.
-Hitting on 4+ with the power fist in combat plus getting the benefit of 'Fix Bayonettes' with insane pen and multiple damage he killed everything he came into contact with (except the lictor who took a mortal wound, and then another from rifle hit from Private Robert before the three of them got hit by a page marine's flamer (also demolitions!)) the Tempestor didn't even need a better gun - didn't really benefit from veteran either.

Overall it felt like they were sticking in relatively well, until the plague marines on the other side of the table finished wiping out the Deathwatch and swept into the ruins I was using as a fire base - at that point stuck between the tyranid remnant (half dead) and the death guard (missing two zombies) I took enough wounds (and deaths) to require a bottle test and at that point failed it hard. I elected to withdraw and roll to see who'd live: all but one hopped right back up.

Would you say regular guardsmen can hold their own if they gang up on targets in melee from what you saw?

That is my biggest concern so far, other than tooling a sarge for CQC we really don't have much in terms of melee. My only idea for missions like the hostage taking one was "throw guardsmen at it until the problem goes away".

Strictly speaking on law of averages it takes four guardsmen to strip a wound off of a guardsman, not even counting the t-shirt save, and it takes four scions to do the same, and that's just to take the first flesh wound test.

At one point I had my guardsmen leap down from the upper floor, shoot and charge a few remaining gants, they missed everything spectacularly.

In CC the Tempestor is the best we've got, with two attacks, a 50% chance to hit with the power fist, which is what he needs to get the str, penetration and damage potential to make that hit count. Relative to what other teams will use as a beatsticks in the hostage mission he can't stand toe to toe. Both players will try to use the CP consuming abilities and charges to try to attack first, but you can tip the scales further by having a sergeant issue FB to him.

Another thing I noticed is that it's pretty easy to get that first mortal wound and keep chugging along, and it's also very easy to position yourself to single out those wounded soldiers. You you can improve your odds further by going after surviving wounded enemies.

So having had a game where I tested out that scion list I have to say i'm not overly impressed with plasma guns, there's so many -1's to hit that i never really felt safe overcharging them and given they were scion's I wasn't particularly thrilled at the potential of a 5th of list to kill itself. That said I was quite happy with how my volleyguns performed for the most part, I had 1 with the heavy specialism and he had a merry time running and gunning his way up the board, putting flesh wounds on a couple of models. oh and comm's specialist as expected is pretty damn useful, the help with nerve tests and getting a volleygun to hit on 2's help's a lot with all the -1's about.

I am fairly sure they made it so plasma explodes on a natural one only

stratigo wrote:
I am fairly sure they made it so plasma explodes on a natural one only

Correct.

One thing which disturbes me is a scion with a vox.
In WH40k alongside with vox caster I need to take hot-shot las pistol and optionally take hot-shot lasgun (two weapons and vox), While in Kill Team I don;t have to take las pistol to vox caster... This is kinda disturbing as model for vox scion has its right hand busy with telephone and "free" left hands in sprue are the ones for plasma gunner (great pointy finger plasma pose ). I hope they allow to take las-pistol alongside vox in FAQ

Gnollu wrote:
One thing which disturbes me is a scion with a vox.
In WH40k alongside with vox caster I need to take hot-shot las pistol and optionally take hot-shot lasgun (two weapons and vox), While in Kill Team I don;t have to take las pistol to vox caster... This is kinda disturbing as model for vox scion has its right hand busy with telephone and "free" left hands in sprue are the ones for plasma gunner (great pointy finger plasma pose ). I hope they allow to take las-pistol alongside vox in FAQ

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

Gnollu wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

Just build him with the pistol and wrapped up Hotshot, it would take a very particular brand of a**hole to insist that it's not a legal model. No one should have any issue's with you stripping weapons off a unit and if they try and take issue with it just declare that you built the model for normal 40k, that it's a legal 40k model and that the only difference between killteam and the 40k versions is that you can't use the pistol, if they still try and make an issue of it just walk away and find someone to play with who isn't a dick.

 Peregrine wrote:

stratigo wrote:
I am fairly sure they made it so plasma explodes on a natural one only

Correct.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that, makes me feel a bit better about overcharging them.

With that in mind I was thinking of making the following change, drop the non specialist scion plasma and pick up two guardsmen with flamer's instead, the amount of -1's to hit is pretty obnoxius especially if there's any units or strats with additional -1's to hit in play player's will go a fair way to dealing with that and help get some more wounds through with some luck. So the list would look like

Tempestor with powerfist/Bolt pistol - 12pt's (Leader)
Scion gunner with volleygun- 13 pts (Heavy)
Scion Gunner with volleygun - 13 pts
Scion Gunner with plasmagun- 13 pts (Sniper)
Scion with Hotshot/Voxcaster- 14 pts (Comms)
Scion with Hotshot -9 pts
Scion with Hotshot -9 pts
Guardsmen with flamer- 8 pts
Guardsmen with flamer- 8 pts

Only thing's i'm still considering is whether to give the Tempestor a plasma pistol, pro's is it's a plasma and it gives him a bit more bite, con's is that pistol's aren't that useful and the extra point it costs would put me right on the limit and make it easier for my opponents to score an extra command point in the first round. Other point of consideration is that i'm not sure if i should give up the sniper of heavy specialisation in order to get the demo spec on one of the flamer's, demo looks to be very very good with a potential +2 to wound against obscured targets but sniper keeps the plasma safe when overcharging and means the free order can be spent on something else and heavy let's you be aggressive with the volleygun, pushing up into half range without any issues.

So how are you guys approaching Take Prisoners? While a Tempestor/Sergeant can (relatively) hold their own in melee, it's really a rough mission, especially against things like Hormagaunts, Reivers, Plague Marines, etc.

Requizen wrote:
So how are you guys approaching Take Prisoners? While a Tempestor/Sergeant can (relatively) hold their own in melee, it's really a rough mission, especially against things like Hormagaunts, Reivers, Plague Marines, etc.

Take prisoners usually comes down to the last model anyways since it isn’t too hard to cluster up.

Gnollu wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

IG codex was FAQ'd to allow vox and Medics to carry lasguns.

You may have me to thank for that. I bugged them about it several times because there are models they have pictures of with the lasguns on their back but they wouldn't use them. Never managed to get them to give it to the Sarge but at least I got a small victory there.

Tried today kill team made of vox, sarg with bolt pistol and 18 guardsmen...

I played against SM player so usually 5+ to hit, 5+ to wound and 3+ save for oponent.
Without FRFSRF for squad of 10 it is hard to actually kill anything with that amount of firepower.
Nedless to say I lost badly (take prisoners )

On the other hand, GBTF on model which moved back as reaction 3 inches is great, same for stratagem Get Down when somebody tries to hit vox or sarg

you definitely want some special weapons

Yea
It was fun/test play to check how horde is going to perform.
It does not perform well.

IG has possibility to field 8 special weapons in kill team and it deffinitely need it. Actually the only model carrying lasgun should be vox IMO

Gnollu wrote:

On the other hand, GBTF on model which moved back as reaction 3 inches is great, same for stratagem Get Down when somebody tries to hit vox or sarg

I don't think you can use GBTF on a model that retreated 3" as a reaction to being charged, only when they Fall Back from combat, which is a different kind of move. Which sucks because it would totally make sense to use it on a model that retreated but it doesn't work that way.

So for a sniper force (3-5 snipers,+ Grunts) which would we suggest, Guard, or SM Scouts?

I currently have: A set of CCW Scouts and no Snipers.
A set of IG Snipers and no Guardsman.

Which direction should I go?

Gnollu wrote:
Yea
It was fun/test play to check how horde is going to perform.
It does not perform well.

IG has possibility to field 8 special weapons in kill team and it deffinitely need it. Actually the only model carrying lasgun should be vox IMO

Your kill team will poof with too few bodies. I think 12 to 14 should be an aimed for number.

stratigo wrote:


Your kill team will poof with too few bodies. I think 12 to 14 should be an aimed for number.

Problem with improving body count with guardsmen is morale/nerve test.
On the table next to me lad playing against AM focused on guardsmen only to wipe out half of squad as soon as possible, and with T3 Sv5+ it is kinda easy.
After that Ld6/7 really hurts AM.
We need commissar as soon as possible in KT

Hm. What’s a “short range sniper” called?

Either way, Plas Scion sniper rerolling 1s brings reliable overcharge to the table.

Invul wrote:
Hm. What’s a “short range sniper” called?

Either way, Plas Scion sniper rerolling 1s brings reliable overcharge to the table.

Marksman?
Yup, shame You can only take one sniper to the table

Gnollu wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Your kill team will poof with too few bodies. I think 12 to 14 should be an aimed for number.

Problem with improving body count with guardsmen is morale/nerve test.
On the table next to me lad playing against AM focused on guardsmen only to wipe out half of squad as soon as possible, and with T3 Sv5+ it is kinda easy.
After that Ld6/7 really hurts AM.
We need commissar as soon as possible in KT

t3 with a 4 plus at 10 points is less durable than t3 with a 5 plus at 5. Having to kill another two or three models to force break checks is useful

So having tried out the scion list with flamers I have to say I'm quite happy with how it performed, 2 guardsmen with flamers pushing up the board draw a lot of attention off your other guys and if they get in range they can throw some pretty decent damage out. Grey Knights smite is pretty annoying to deal with but they're so few models it's very easy to break them. Volleyguns just murder MEQ's if you can get them within half range, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's or hittin on 2's with the comm ability then wounding on 4's with -2 ap is just murder on expensive models like those.

There's also a definite advantage to having the most models on the table, won a 4 player game by virtue of being the last unbroken team on the table, survived mostly intact till last turn what everyone on the table focused me, killing 4 models in 2 phases and leaving me with 3 left, managed to pass the break test via the skin of my teeth leaving me the last player standing (the two grey knight players mutually annihilated each other breaking both of their kill teams and the tau player broke in the first turn due to some bad positioning and bad luck).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
20 models defeats the spirit of the game. Do you want to game it?

Uh, lol? Taking a perfectly legal army under the stated rules of the game, from a faction that lore-wise emphasizes mass numbers and has a preview emphasizing the ability to out-number an opposing kill team, is somehow "defeating the spirit of the game"? Sorry, but I'll play the game as-written, and not care about your weird self-imposed rules about what is "gaming it".

Anyway, 20 models is still significantly less than a single platoon. That is a 'small-scale' force for the Guard.... something you could realistically see assigned to garrison a single large building, junction or bridge.

And yes, Peregrine summed it up; if you want non-scion forces, you're basically dependent on gunners with special-weapon-of-choice; lasfire against a target 13" away in cover will categorically not kill anything. Regular guardsmen need rapid fire at targets in the clear to cause meaningful damage, and that's risky - certainly, if you're getting that close, you'd get more mileage out of flamers, and if not planning to you might as well have sniper rifles.

And meltaguns frankly weren't even worth it in previous versions of kill team where you (occasionally) found yourself up against a razorback or chimera, let alone in the new infantry-only version.

Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":



The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

 Weazel wrote:
Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":

Spoiler:

++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Tempestor [12pts]: Leader, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

+ Non-specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

++ Total: [100pts] ++

The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

Vox caster's are your only safety net for nerve tests that doesn't involve CP, taking one means you can use that CP on stuff like Get down or other strat's that will buff your offensive output rather than hold onto it to try and save a model down the line. Stick it on your comm's specialist so you only have the 1 model to keep hidden and safe. Something else to be aware of is that the second plasma gunner is gonna need to stick relatively close to your sergeant if you want to be able to safely overcharge him, personally I've found it better to drop him all together and take 2 special weapon guardsmen with weapons of choice, this gives you a good platform for flamers or melta's that are relatively disposable and if taken with the aforementioned addition of a vox which would cause you to lose a guy would keep you at 9 guys which means you need to lose 5 models to take a break test.

 gbghg wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":

Spoiler:

++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Tempestor [12pts]: Leader, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

+ Non-specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

++ Total: [100pts] ++

The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

Vox caster's are your only safety net for nerve tests that doesn't involve CP, taking one means you can use that CP on stuff like Get down or other strat's that will buff your offensive output rather than hold onto it to try and save a model down the line. Stick it on your comm's specialist so you only have the 1 model to keep hidden and safe. Something else to be aware of is that the second plasma gunner is gonna need to stick relatively close to your sergeant if you want to be able to safely overcharge him, personally I've found it better to drop him all together and take 2 special weapon guardsmen with weapons of choice, this gives you a good platform for flamers or melta's that are relatively disposable and if taken with the aforementioned addition of a vox which would cause you to lose a guy would keep you at 9 guys which means you need to lose 5 models to take a break test.

Okay thanks for your input. I want to keep it pure Scions, just for narrative's sake. A plain guardsman Carl with whatever gear just feels a bit stoopid. So basically it comes down to having 8 guys + Vox or 9 guys without a Vox. 9 guys takes the breaking point one death further but rerolling Nerve for Ld6 guys is kinda important... so idk really.

 gbghg wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Wasn't very impressed with a guardsman KT so I'm going to try da Scion bomb next. I suppose something along these lines is close to "optimal":

Spoiler:

++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Tempestor [12pts]: Leader, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

+ Non-specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

++ Total: [100pts] ++

The other volley gun might just as well be a plasma, haven't really figured out which is superior overall. With two you can reroll ones so it's easier to keep overcharging away. Also I'm not sure if I should drop one guy for a Vox Caster.

Any input or suggestions?

Vox caster's are your only safety net for nerve tests that doesn't involve CP, taking one means you can use that CP on stuff like Get down or other strat's that will buff your offensive output rather than hold onto it to try and save a model down the line. Stick it on your comm's specialist so you only have the 1 model to keep hidden and safe. Something else to be aware of is that the second plasma gunner is gonna need to stick relatively close to your sergeant if you want to be able to safely overcharge him, personally I've found it better to drop him all together and take 2 special weapon guardsmen with weapons of choice, this gives you a good platform for flamers or melta's that are relatively disposable and if taken with the aforementioned addition of a vox which would cause you to lose a guy would keep you at 9 guys which means you need to lose 5 models to take a break test.

I would add sarg to be a leader and tempestor with powerfist. Actually sarg ordering tempestor FB (fix power fist?) is kinda brutal (order is issued before fight phase). Power sword on tempestor is kind wasted because of its s3.


I think that KT size of 8 has same breaking point as size of 9. In book is stated if MORE than half of Your team...
Or I am mistaken, therefore please correct me as I do not have rulebook by my side right now

Gnollu wrote:
I would add sarg to be a leader and tempestor with powerfist. Actually sarg ordering tempestor FB (fix power fist?) is kinda brutal (order is issued before fight phase). Power sword on tempestor is kind wasted because of its s3.

I think that KT size of 8 has same breaking point as size of 9. In book is stated if MORE than half of Your team...
Or I am mistaken, therefore please correct me as I do not have rulebook by my side right now

It's correct. The rule says:

Otherwise, if more than half of the models in your kill
team currently have flesh wounds, are shaken or are
out of action, it may be broken.

Maybe I'll just take a Vox and a Powerfist and deal with 8 guys. If I decide to go super competitive then I might take a few Carls.

What would be better playing plain scion against MEQ or Death Guard? Stay at 9 inches and shoot or maybe close to 6 inches and throw krak? That d3 damage is really tempting, especially against Plague Marines actually

Gnollu wrote:
What would be better playing plain scion against MEQ or Death Guard? Stay at 9 inches and shoot or maybe close to 6 inches and throw krak? That d3 damage is really tempting, especially against Plague Marines actually

Against DG, snipe down the Blight launcher user(s) ASAP. That is a S6 AP-2 poison weapon, wound you on 2+ and reroll 1's. Once they hit, guardsmen begin to die.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Gnollu wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

IG codex was FAQ'd to allow vox and Medics to carry lasguns.

You may have me to thank for that. I bugged them about it several times because there are models they have pictures of with the lasguns on their back but they wouldn't use them. Never managed to get them to give it to the Sarge but at least I got a small victory there.

Kill-Team forbids Guardsmen to have a Medic although the HQ box (Catachan/Cadian) comes with the option to build one.
This sucks a lot. You now what sucks even more? Factions like Eldar and Thousand Sons (Tzaangors) can have models with the Medic rule while at the same time never had rules in 40K to justify this design decision.
And SM also can´t use a model with the Medic rule. GW is nowadays all about having rules for existing models. So have they stopped selling Apothecaries?

Having played around with the battlescribe list builder I'd be inclined to take guard spam.

Leader
Sergeant - Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
Special
Gunner - Plasmagun - Sniper
Special Weapons Gunner - Flamer - Demo
Guardsman - Vox-caster - Comms
The rest
7 Guardsmen
2 special weapon squad gunners - flamer
3 Special weapon squad guardsmen

16 guys (1 Guardsman squad, 1 special weapon squad)
comes to 99pts (If battlescribe's points are correct).

I run a mix of scions and guardsmen. My reasoning for it is that it's a scions team with cannon fodder or servant guardsmen. I have a comms vox caster as a regular guardsman, a demo specialist with a flamer, 3 other regular flamer guardsmen, and a handful of lasgun guys.

The roster is:

-Tempestor - Leader - HSLPistol, Chainsword
-Guardsman - Comms - Vox
-Scion Gunner - Sniper - Plasma
-Scion Gunner - Heavy - HSVG
-Guardsman Gunner - Demo - Flamer
-Scion Gunner - HSVolleygun
-Scion Gunner - HSVolleygun
-Scion Gunner - Plasma
-Scion Gunner - Plasma
-2x Scion - HSLasgun
-3x Special Weapons Gunner - Flamer
-6x Guardsmen - Lasgun

I build out a handful of lists based on who I'm fighting.

The main TAC list is

Tempestor
Comms guy
Plasma Sniper
HSVG Heavy
1 more Plas
1 more HSVG
2 Flamer guys
1 rifle scion

Against hordes I drop the 2 plasma and the HSLG scion for a demo flamer, a third HSVG, and a couple guardsmen to soak up melee

Against MEQ drop the flamers, add plasma, fit in a few regular guardsmen for chaff.

I need to double check my actual written roster. I think I don't have any list that runs all 6 rifle guardsmen so I dropped it for a melta scion or two against things like primaris marines, 1k sons, DG, etc.

Tested a mix of guardsmrn, plasma guardsmeb, and scions today. Guardsmen did absolutely nothing the entire game. Plasma Gunner's hit on 6+ at 24" while a single marine plasma gunner sniper vox stratagem guy ran around killing people with 2+ to hit reroll 1s wound on 1s no save.

It was like 8th edition 40k in a horrendous -1 hit modifier match, except less fun.

Preliminary kill team review 2/10

 ph34r wrote:
Tested a mix of guardsmrn, plasma guardsmeb, and scions today. Guardsmen did absolutely nothing the entire game. Plasma Gunner's hit on 6+ at 24" while a single marine plasma gunner sniper vox stratagem guy ran around killing people with 2+ to hit reroll 1s wound on 1s no save.

It was like 8th edition 40k in a horrendous -1 hit modifier match, except less fun.

Preliminary kill team review 2/10

You can stack bonuses on guardsmen models too you know.

 ph34r wrote:
Tested a mix of guardsmrn, plasma guardsmeb, and scions today. Guardsmen did absolutely nothing the entire game. Plasma Gunner's hit on 6+ at 24" while a single marine plasma gunner sniper vox stratagem guy ran around killing people with 2+ to hit reroll 1s wound on 1s no save.

It was like 8th edition 40k in a horrendous -1 hit modifier match, except less fun.

Preliminary kill team review 2/10

Stack sniper and comms on one of your plasma guys too, preferably a scion. Regular guardsmen aren't great at killing stuff but they're good at soaking up damage and getting in the way.

Run the regular guardsmen aggressively in a mob. Don't sit and shoot at 24" range or they won't do anything. Get in their face and rapid fire on them. Hitting on 5's then unless they're in the open then 4's still.

Don't forget you've got a grenade, it's a little bit of a boost.

Charge your guardsmen into melee. If you tag that plasma marine that's 1 turn he's not shooting.

Your regular guardsmen are meant to be thrown away. Your scions are meant to do a lot of the work. I like guardsmen with flamers cause they don't need to roll to hit, guardsmen with lasguns for throwaways, and then scions with specials to do most of the killing work.

If you know you're going to face marines don't bring a lot of lasgun guardsmen. Maybe a handful for sacrifices and charging but not many. Take more scions with plasma and HSVGs. You get a 20 man roster to build your team from after you know what faction you're fighting.

Oh really? I did not know about that roster thing. That's kinda cool, thanks for the advice.

cmspano wrote:
...don't bring a lot of lasgun guardsmen.

Oh, couldn't agree more with this bit.
Against anything other than other guardsmen, they're little more than cannon fodder.

This is where we completely differ from 40k as a faction and admittedly, I fell into the trap of "bring ALL the dudes" on my first game too.
You don't get to fire as a unit where averages tend to average out, and your "re-roll 1's" order gets to affect 10 guys, and given how all the modifiers work, you'll be hitting a heck of a lot less, so when you DO hit you need to be reliably wounding and really making the opponent work for their saves.
For this reason - plasma against high toughness, against T3 models, scions with hot shots (both of the las and volley variety) really do the work.
Oh, and for the inevitable left over points, a demo flamer guardsman can threaten even plague marines (2's to wound, re-rolling 1's? Yes please - +1 to wound against obscured passive ability, +1 to wound tactic, re-roll 1's to wound order from nearby officer (12" never looked so far before!))), and even normal flamer guard can do a nasty if the opponent groups even just 2 guys too close - advance into range and because it's assault, let rip.

j33v3s wrote:

cmspano wrote:
...don't bring a lot of lasgun guardsmen.

Oh, couldn't agree more with this bit.
Against anything other than other guardsmen, they're little more than cannon fodder.

Exactly, and sometimes cannon fodder is exactly what you need. You just have to play with how much of it you need. The fact that KT is Charge->Shoot->Melee instead of Shoot->Charge->Melee is hugely important. Lasgun guardsmen are great at charging units to tie them up. Who cares if the guardsman dies, and against your average shooting unit he's going to live through one round of melee more often than not.

Even against orks my guardsmen had a decent chance of living through melee. 3 Attacks, 2 Hits, 1-2 wounds. 1/3 chance to save, 1/2 chance to only be flesh wounded.

Enemy shooting unit? Charge a guardsman
Enemy melee unit? Charge a guardsman if you went first this turn. I would much rather a lasgun guardsman charge a Genestealer than let the stealer charge a guy with a plasma gun. While the guardsman is dieing the plasma guy can back up and shoot something else for a turn.

As far as killing power, guardsmen with lasguns are reasonably useful for their points against other guardsmen, scions, ad mech, fire warriors, gaunts, Orks, etc. Basically anything that either has T3, or a bad save. As long as the T and Sv aren't both good it's acceptable for a 5 point model. For instance I would only bring 2-4 of them tops against any marine faction, just for fodder. Even a scout is T4 with a 4+, that's too low of a chance to be useful at killing.

What is the opinion on melee weapons for the Sergeant and Tempestor? Are the power sword and power fist worth it, or are you better off sticking to the chainsword even if you want them in melee? (E.g., if one of them isn’t your Leader.)

PS on S3 is usually not worth it.
Power fist on the other hand gives tempestor S6 so You will wound MEQ and even Plague Marines on 3+ which is nice.

Using tempestor as fighter and sarg using Fix Bayonets is kinda nice

Guys, any advice or examples? I'm building a mixed Scion and catachan kill team, I would like them to look like a reasonably coherent unit. I'm painting my catachans in a more urban scheme which should help them gel with the scions which I plan to paint greys and black.
Anybody built scions with bare arms or something? Not sure where I'm going to be honest so anything cool really I'd be interested to see

Getting a command box and a Scion box is a good start

I've already picked up a catachan box, a catachan command box, and the Scion kill team starter box. Just looking for inspiration really, I think I should be able to do plenty with what I have. It's mainly what catachan parts I should put on the scions...

Abaddon303 wrote:
I've already picked up a catachan box, a catachan command box, and the Scion kill team starter box. Just looking for inspiration really, I think I should be able to do plenty with what I have. It's mainly what catachan parts I should put on the scions...

Unless you’re into heavy converting, I’d keep the Scion arms as they are: it’ll be very hard to put th Hotshot lasguns on Catachan arms, and if you’re looking at the heavy weaponns, you’ll want as many of those as you can so discarding the Scion arms mean you’re left with just the contents of the Catachan command box and a couple of flamers.

The Scion beret heads work great for Catachans, so perhaps you can switch a few heads around. And give the Scions a few of those big, Catachan knives/swords. Other than that, a similar paint scheme should probably toe them together nicely.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I've already picked up a catachan box, a catachan command box, and the Scion kill team starter box. Just looking for inspiration really, I think I should be able to do plenty with what I have. It's mainly what catachan parts I should put on the scions...

Make "The Expendables".

Abaddon303 wrote:
Guys, any advice or examples? I'm building a mixed Scion and catachan kill team, I would like them to look like a reasonably coherent unit. I'm painting my catachans in a more urban scheme which should help them gel with the scions which I plan to paint greys and black.
Anybody built scions with bare arms or something? Not sure where I'm going to be honest so anything cool really I'd be interested to see

If I had time/money/skill I would use scion legs, the mask+beret scion head, catachan torso (the cadian plate and six-pack style) and cut the arms so the hand and under arm armor is from a scion (like the volley gun bit) and the elbow-shoulder part is catachan.

I was excited about a Scion KT initially but after building and painting my Skitarii KT I kinda lost interest in Scions. Mainly because the melee options in a guard list are more or less nonexistent. Is there any reason to run a Scion list over a Skitarii list? Fluff or model aesthetics notwithstanding.

Yeah the Capture mission is a bit tough on the IG, it may need some tweaking. Played it against another IG player and it was basically just dumb luck which one of us won because with in general a single dice each for attacks it really came down to who was luck enough to drop 2-3 models before the other one.

In retrospect I should have just played to make my opponent run rather than actually trying to play the mission, which sort of means the mission needs work from my point of view.

After few games what do You think about Vox Caster? Is it worth it? Actually it is 10 points model doing nothing than hiding to provide buff.

On the other hand reroll failed nerve is neato . What are your opinion?

I have to say, I've taken one every game BUT haven't really used it.
That said, I do try to make sure that I have guys within 2", so typically, it's either impossible/very hard to fail, or I've lost so many I stand no chance, even with the re-roll (and in all honesty at that point, the guy with it is probably dead anyway).
However, that sort of thing might get more difficult when my opponents wise up and start bringing multi shot weaponry.

I find myself running Scion heavy lists having played a good 10 or so games, so 5 points isn't quite a whole guardsman anymore.

I also find I'm actually fairly rarely having to take nerve tests on more than one or two models. Typically either my guys are dead, or they aren't wounded. And the odd one you can command point if really needed.

Basically, that doesn't really help you, because I'm still "on the fence"!

 vonjankmon wrote:
Yeah the Capture mission is a bit tough on the IG, it may need some tweaking.

I'm glad you say that too - I played against TAU the other day, and we drew because after 2 turns three of my guys were unable to down a pathfinder and a drone - only achieving one wound. Similarly he did nothing to me.
I consider what's happened when my guys have been in combat against something even semi-competent, and they've been steam-roller-ed.

So I am planning to run list like this for Matched Play.
It is not a roster, just 100 point core team.
Any insight? I could really use some advice


++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Sergeant [5pts]: Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Leader

+ Specialists +

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]: Comms

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Heavy, Hot-shot volley gun

+ Non-specialists +

Guardsman Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Hot-shot volley gun

Special Weapons Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

++ Total: [100pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Looks pretty good to me. I really do find having fewer models, but making those guys scions really helps over spamming basic guard -
The AP-2 is really big, because you're so unlikely to hit and wound, when you do you're really making the most of it.
In addition, the better save and BS just add to the package.

My personal takes at this point are -

I tend to run a guardsman flamer as a demo specialist instead of the sniper due to:
Passive: add 1 to wound against obscured models
Active (1CP): add 1 to wound
for a potentially massive add 2 to wound
With optional order of re-roll 1's to wound if you really must wound that sucker with everything

And, more often than not, I find I'm using the re-roll 1's to hit order, along with the strat. that allows me to spread that to anyone within 2"/3" (can't remember exactly) of the ordered model - making the sniper a bit superfluous.

I also tend to run a tempestor as my leader instead, partly because we have no combat/zealot specialisms, so anything else is wasted on him, and partly due to the better WS and save - typically he's the target of stuff, so having more ability to save and counter that stuff is good. YMMV

Hey guys, If using a sniper gun, would it be better to have the sniper specialty for extra hit bonuses, or the demolitions specialty for the increased mortal would possibility?

Also, regarding the IG boxed set, I have no real interest in the Scions or the terrain, but I want to know what the strategems are to know if it's worth it to buy and then go to the effort of selling off the models. Can anyone point me in the direction of a spooiler list for the strategems?

Don't forget, with a standard Guardsman, you're hitting, at best, on 4's. So with that in mind:

Demo -
1) If you're looking to take advantage of the passive demo ability, you're talking about 5's to hit base.
2) you can spend 1 cp to add 1 to wound regardless
3) You can use an order to re-roll 1's to hit (which the sniper gets passively)

Sniper -
1) you re-roll 1's passively
2) can spend a cp to add 1 to hit

With both you could also
1) use a comms specialist to add another 1 to hit
2) use an order on him to re-roll 1's to wound

So if we're looking at a sniper rifle armed guy in isolation - assuming cover on the target (to make a fair comparison as demo needs it for most efficiency), spending a CP on the relavent strat, and an order:
A sniper will be rolling 3's to hit (assuming modified by cover), and re-rolling 1's to wound.
Whereas, at 5's to hit (assuming modified by cover) the demo guy is much less likely to hit, and then the wound roll depends on the T of the target, a T5 target for example is going to be 3+, anything else 2+ (with re-roll 1's) - the only thing to note here, is against things at T3 and lower, you don't need to spend the CP for more wounding.
BUT it's got no AP so a lot of things will save it.
I feel like with the sniper you're really fishing for the 6 for a mortal wound.
SO, with that in mind, I think having him a sniper specialist is your best bet.

However, thinking about him as part of a kill team, why spend all that resource on ONE dude, which isn't a guaranteed kill, when there are so many other things you can spend your resources on more efficiently (i.e. a bunched group of
rapid fire overcharged plasma scions re-rolling 1's to hit with an order and 2CP)

What's everyone's opinions on Guardsmen Flamers? Looking at the rules, it looks like I can take 4 (might be mis-remembering). If I'm running Scions, any reason to take regular Scions over these guys? Seems to me by taking the Guardsmen Flamers over the Scions, I'm saving a point to trade 1 armor save and -2 AP for D6 Auto Hits.

Here's the list I'm thinking of trying:

++ Kill Team List (Astra Militarum) [100pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Tempestor [10pts]: Chainsword, Hot-shot laspistol, Leader

+ Specialists +

Guardsman [10pts]: Comms, Vox Caster

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun, Sniper

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Demolitions, Plasma gun

+ Non-specialists +

Guardsman Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scion [9pts]

Scion Gunner [13pts]: Plasma gun

Special Weapons Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

Special Weapons Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

Special Weapons Gunner [8pts]: Flamer

++ Total: [100pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Does anyone know the Plasma list that was wrecking house at Nova?

Well, no one it seems xD.

Considering sniper rifle, for 1 point more than normal guardsman you generate "passive threat". Hitting on 5+ (usually enemy is obstructed) and "sometimes" causing mortal wound is annoying enough for opponent to dedicate lot of firepower to kill 6pts guy. Specials are better left for scions IMO

FAQ went up. Lots of little changes for Guard -

-Comms can only be a Scion with the Vox, so no more Plasma Comms (and Comms no longer can affect itself with +1 to hit)
-Guardsmen can take Medic
-Leader cannot Order himself

Overall not a huge change, other than most people will swap Comms for a different Specialist.

Vox now can take hot shot pistol and lasgun... Now I can have single model to kill team and big wh40k


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And scions can take 'nade launcher. It can actually open some possibilities as scion gunner can take weapon not costing 3 points

So...
Trying to revive thread, cause AM is my main faction and I kinda fancy this skirmish game .

It was revealed that our 3 commander hoices would be:
Commisar, Tempestor Prime and CC/PC.

Inspirational Command is slight buff over Sir, Yes Sir! with slightly bigger area of effect. Also it does not seem to affect Cunning Strategy.

Inspiration Command can actually mean that plasma spam will be even better than it is right now. 4 Scions with plasma in 6'' bubble rerolling ones could be devastating actually.

Anyone have success with regular Guardsmen besides taking them with Flamers and/or using them as a cheaper Comms? What about Sergeants?

Quite honestly I'm finding taking Scions with the occasional Flamer Special Weapons Gunner Guardsmen seems to be working... okay.

Sergeant is cheapest leader AM can take so it is worth considering. 'Cause leader cannot order himself tempestus with powerfist is not a good leader IMO (sergeant ordering fix bayonett on tempestus who was charged in movement phase is nasty surprise).

Considering guardsmen... Flashlight never killed anything in my games and t3 sv5+ is too squishy to reliably hold objectives...
Single frag can kill 3 guardsmen (opponent had lucky rolls)

I wonder if the named commissar commander will be worth it, I see a leader mainly being there to spam the order where it affects everyone within X inches combined with plasma etc.

Is comms guy necessary with being able to take aim every round? Does it stack with take aim? since its +1 and the order is reroll?

You can only take 2 plasma and 2 volley guns? Can you even take all 4 of those?

I'm curious, any chance someone w/ the Commanders book could share what weapons options are available to a Tempestor Prime?
Is it the same as a Tempestor?

EDIT - nevermind, just got the book

Is there any reason to run tempestor prime instead of CC as commander?
Tenpestor prime is 10 points more expensive for 4+ save but loses 5++...

I'm not seeing any reason to take the Tempestor Prime other than the base Hot-Shot Laspistol and the Overwatch tactic. Might be a pass on that one.

Regular Commissars versus Platoon Commanders is a choice between letting your units use a higher leadership and being able to give an additional order.

Company Commander seems the best choice for a Leadership Specialist

Logistics seems best matched with a Platoon Commander if going the Materiel route (for the price).

All of the aggressive Commander specialisms seem best on either the Commissar, Platoon Commander or the Lord Commissar, depending on what you go with.

A little unsure if the aggressive specialisms are worth it for Guard. I myself like a surprise attacker to draw the enemy fire, but a lot of the bonuses for the Company Commander with Leadership or Strategist look like they might be better. (Seriously, a level 2 Company Commander with Strategist looks wonderful).

I feel like the Commissar is not worth looking at he doesn't really bring anything good and he loses the ability to give 2 orders or use the everyone in 6" gets the order tactic

I was thinking the Tempestor Prime could be good but I am not sure he's worth the extra points and having to take the command rod in order to get the 2 uses of commands

In fact he has a 4+ armor save but is otherwise identical while the platoon and company commanders get 5+ armor but also a 5+ invuln

Their front line options and wargear don't seem worth it on their statline. You will want the guaranteed extra CP so you can give everyone a command

I tried out the Lord Commissar with Power fist, built him up to lvl 4 with the Melee tree.

A S6 guardsman, that hits on a 3, and deals mortal wounds on a 6+ on the wound roll? Only thing ive found that can handle the death guard and tyranids in my circle

I'm trying a level 3 Strategist Company Commander tonight. All basic wargear, nothing else.

Edit: and it looks like next week. Opponents did not want them...

Paedrig wrote:
I tried out the Lord Commissar with Power fist, built him up to lvl 4 with the Melee tree.

A S6 guardsman, that hits on a 3, and deals mortal wounds on a 6+ on the wound roll? Only thing ive found that can handle the death guard and tyranids in my circle

Don't they still get disgusting resilient even with mortal wounds? and doesn't he get -1 to hit with the power fist?

Jaynen wrote:
and doesn't he get -1 to hit with the power fist?

The commissar is WS 2+ to start, because your marines guardsmen are the real heroes of the Imperium.

Lord Commisar is only combat oriented option. 4+ save 5++. WS and BS 2+ and cam actually take fortitude to buff toughness to 4 which is very needed on 'umies

 Peregrine wrote:

Jaynen wrote:
and doesn't he get -1 to hit with the power fist?

The commissar is WS 2+ to start, because your marines guardsmen are the real heroes of the Imperium.

lol

Sio when are we getting Marbo? I think its about time we change our tactics to be ''Marbo, maybe with other stuff if points allow''

 Bobthehero wrote:
Sio when are we getting Marbo? I think its about time we change our tactics to be ''Marbo, maybe with other stuff if points allow''

Oh come on, Marbo and other stuff? We don't want to be that unfair to our opponents...

But yeah, it's kind of disappointing that we get a "big important characters" expansion for KT but nothing resembling an actual hero or that really seems interesting beyond a bare-minimum commander and as much of the extra 100 points as possible spent on more guardsmen.

What would be the best spec for CC? I usually go with strategist, his passives are just to good to pass. 1CP more, Tactics cost 1 less and specials 6'' away can use tactics one level more. Actually being able to shoot twice with hot shot volley gun in matched play is great. Usually I level him up to 4 level for broken immunity and sometimes add 5 pts for iron will.

Have anybody had any luck running him differently?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Sio when are we getting Marbo? I think its about time we change our tactics to be ''Marbo, maybe with other stuff if points allow''

Oh come on, Marbo and other stuff? We don't want to be that unfair to our opponents...

But yeah, it's kind of disappointing that we get a "big important characters" expansion for KT but nothing resembling an actual hero or that really seems interesting beyond a bare-minimum commander and as much of the extra 100 points as possible spent on more guardsmen.

I bought Marbo hoping lol

Gnollu wrote:
What would be the best spec for CC? ... Have anybody had any luck running him differently?

I finally caved and ordered Creed, just so I could have him running around with the Shooting tree. Double-tapping a plasma pistol with a 9" short range sounds fun, but I haven't tried it out yet.

Just tried a Company Commander as a level 3 Strategist commander. He definitely needs to be used at higher point games (200 pooins instead of the 125 point game I played), he needs to be kept back and given a team with a bunch of special weapons, and mainly level 1-2 specialists with actually good tactics (Sniper, Heavy).

Lost pretty badly. I feel I would have done better if I brought a few more Scions/Special Weapons Gunners instead...

125 points with commander?
I think that for matched play 200 points is to be used with commander. 125 is not even enough for Broodlord or Dominus .

But yeah, strategist works better if You have lot of bodies on the ground. Spamming tactics and allowing to use higher special tactics for 1 CP is great but kinda wasted if only few guys can used it

Arcanis161 wrote:
Just tried a Company Commander as a level 3 Strategist commander. He definitely needs to be used at higher point games (200 pooins instead of the 125 point game I played), he needs to be kept back and given a team with a bunch of special weapons, and mainly level 1-2 specialists with actually good tactics (Sniper, Heavy).

Lost pretty badly. I feel I would have done better if I brought a few more Scions/Special Weapons Gunners instead...

What mission were you playing? The missions that permit a commander are all 200pts (specified in the mission)

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Just tried a Company Commander as a level 3 Strategist commander. He definitely needs to be used at higher point games (200 pooins instead of the 125 point game I played), he needs to be kept back and given a team with a bunch of special weapons, and mainly level 1-2 specialists with actually good tactics (Sniper, Heavy).

Lost pretty badly. I feel I would have done better if I brought a few more Scions/Special Weapons Gunners instead...

What mission were you playing? The missions that permit a commander are all 200pts (specified in the mission)

As many people in our area had gotten the commanders expansion, and as many people (myself included) wanted to try commanders in our campaign, the current ruling by the guy running the campaign is that Commanders are allowed in a match only if every player in your match agrees to allow them.

Also, once you bring a Commander, you are not allowed to change any wargear or swap them out, they are your Commander for the rest of the Campaign.

I would like to do a Guard kill team as I need a shooty list to balance out my more melee focused ones, but I'm having trouble finding the best way to get plasma guns. I'd rather not use the same plasma gun from the command squad set over and over again. I like the Hostile Environment Plasma Squad from FW but it's pretty expensive with shipping. Anyone got any tips on how to most efficiently get a mostly scions list with a few plasma Guard infantry, without being too visually repetitive or expensive?

Hmm, that's going to be tricky. You could try some kitbashing with the Grenade Launcher Infantry Squad Guardsmen/Scions and some Plasma Guns from the Space Marine Tactical or Devastator Squad.

There's also eBay.

Oh I would hit up ebay for sure, I'm just wondering if there are any bits or kits out there I'm unaware of. Throwing on some SM plasma guns is a pretty reasonable solution.

the classic plasma pistol conversion.

There you have it, nicely done.

Well its not mine. its PC Veterans conversion.

that old dakkamite's conversions are pretty nutty.

Also what yal think of the new black stone fortress guys.

really excited about the ratling bros for some reason.

2+ to hit demo charge or sniper for a total of 18 points

The explorers seem like a pretty decent addition to an AM list. They fill a lot of holes and don't count towards your number of specialists while being relatively cost effective.

Edit: I just realized that only Vorne and the ratling twins are available to Astra Militarum, so they don't actually fill gaps like close combat but are still compelling nonetheless.

MARBO IS COMING. A NEW ERA BEGINS SOON.

I am looking forward to elites.

And it's out. Points of discussion:

1) Our Lord and Savior is unfortunately a commander, limiting His presence to games involving the commander expansion. Some cool abilities and only 55 points for a level 4 commander, but how often are people using the commander expansion?

2) Doctrines, as in 40k, do not work well with storm troopers. If you take anything besides storm troopers (with the ogryn/commissar/etc exception) you lose your doctrine on them. This is ok in 40k where you have multiple detachments, but in kill team you're committed to a single doctrine. And those BS 3+ special weapons are the core of our army. So which is better? Taking the maximum four special weapons in a pure storm trooper list and filling it out with generic models, or maximizing plasma guns but accepting that only half of them (and the weaker BS 4+ half!) will get a doctrine bonus? Or maybe taking an ogryn with storm troopers, since they don't wipe out your best doctrine?

I haven’t played any games with Commanders, and to be honest not many games with IG. KT is my chance to branch away from my Humies.

And... I haven’t been keeping up with the points around Elites. I would expect that Scions with an Ogryn or two would be my go-to.

More than anything, because it would give me an excuse to buy those nice new Scion models and finally, after 20 years of Guarding, buy some damned Ogryns. I’ve just been using my old Kasrkin, and part of KT’s allure to me is starting and *finishing* the small war bands before my interest in painting them expires.

I don’t usually max out on Specials, as I like having a handful of expendable troops to cap objectives and generally avoid combat. So I’d be replacing my expendables and a pair of Flamers with the Ogryns. Not sure on points, but 4 special Scions, Tempestor, and a pair of Og’s might leave me with enough points for another Ogryn, or maybe a couple Hot-Shot boys to sneak about, or provide models to give Comms to sort of thing.

Are there any stand-out Doctrines that would make pure Infantry plus a Pair of Ogryns viable?

 greatbigtree wrote:
And... I haven’t been keeping up with the points around Elites.

~30 points for an ogryn, ~40 points for a bullgryn (depending on exact gear choices).

Ouch, I would have guessed 25 for Ogryns. Do “elite” games up the point levels, or is it still standard 100 points?

Most are 125 (all of the new missions in the team boxes and killzone are 125) and some are 200. Some of the 200s are commander mandatory, some are commander optional.

Having updated BattleScribe, I could see taking Talarn or Vostroyans instead of Scions.

Talarn for the run and gun. Vostroyan Plasma is as accurate at long range as Scions would be, and you’re ideally engaging at long range with Guardsmen.

A typical 4 Plasma Vostroyan Team, Sarge, a few chumps to cap objectives supported by a Bullgryn and a Ogryn, for example, could do some work. Doesn’t look like the Guardsmen lose their Vostroyan Perk for including Scions, and I don’t find the Scion Doctrine to be all that great...

Based on that, I’d say at 125 the ideal setup may still remain 8x Plasma, Sarge, plus a big guy, maybe a couple chumps depending on taste. Maybe drop one Scion Plasma to pick up some more chumps if needed. With the added perk that the Plasma Vostroyans can be more useful in a support fire role.