Had this thought about a way to help tone down the power of Marines and to some extent Chaos.

The basic change it to make it so that Marine Squads that aren't at full strength (10 marines for loyalists, unmarked or MOCU traitors, or favored number for cult specific Chaos squads) can not take both a heavy and special weapon (or two specials in the case of Chaos and C&P Trait Marines).

The basic overpowering problem with Marines currently is that .they can be min/maxed so effectively with 5 or 6 man squads to get Las/Plas which makes for great anti-tank and anti-MEQ for such a low points costs.   Remove the ability to take two high strength low-ap weapons from undersized marine squads and you will have gone a long way towards helping tone down the cheese that Marines can bring to the table.

Sure you can still be relatively cheesy with just a 5 or 6 Man Lascannon squad, but at least it's not as bad as it is now. 

Thoughts?

You do know basic CSM squads (strangely) go up to 20 models right?

Anyway, the idea (or some form of it) isn't bad at all, but if you take basic marines (with no upgrades) and put them up against an equal amount of points of a non-MEQ basic troop the marine is clearly too cheap.

I still think a simple points increase it what is needed. Marines, Necrons and SOBs are all too cheap when you compare them to other non-MEQ basic troops.

A basic Marine should probably be 18, Necron 20 and SOB 13 or 14 points.

Posted By yakface on 06/15/2006 2:42 AM

You do know basic CSM squads (strangely) go up to 20 models right?

Anyway, the idea (or some form of it) isn't bad at all, but if you take basic marines (with no upgrades) and put them up against an equal amount of points of a non-MEQ basic troop the marine is clearly too cheap.

I still think a simple points increase it what is needed. Marines, Necrons and SOBs are all too cheap when you compare them to other non-MEQ basic troops.

A basic Marine should probably be 18, Necron 20 and SOB 13 or 14 points.

Guess I should have paid more attention to the Chaos Dex then, no I didn't see that till you pointed it out.

I think that the same rules would apply though, reguardless.  Just a requirement for 10 Marines in the troop squad to be able to take a Heavy and Special or two special weapons.

I think the real problem is that Marines can be so efficiently min/maxed to an extent that really makes them over efficient for what they do.  A min/maxed Las/Plas squad of 5 or 6 Marines is extraordinarily underpointed, the idea is to fix that.

While on the surface I agree with your assessment that the MEQ (or Power Armor in general) is just way undercosted, you can't just up the points a bit and call it good. 

If a Marine costs 18 Points, then how much more should a Grey Knight cost?  How much for a Thousands Sun Ruberic Marine? Cult Marked Chaos Marines?  A lot of these things (such as GK's and Ruberic Marines) are considered very overcosted for what they do, and would still be even if they stood at their current points level and everything else increased in points.

You still don't get around the fact that even if Marines cost 18 Points, a Necron Costing 20 Points gets you a lot more in return for just 2 points.  That's the problem really, you're never going to get exact point parity between units in different armies, only approximations. 

Also while this really doesn't have much impact on what should and should not be done with the rules, GW will never increase the poinits costs of Marines to something higher since it would reduce the number of Marine Models needed to field a 1500 Point army.   It's kind of sad, but I'm pretty certain this is the reason that the Assault Cannon got the power boost that it did from the games dev team, it envigorated the sales of Landspeeders, Normal Terminators, and Dreads, which as far as I could tell weren't used all that much under 3rd ed.

some really simple rebalancing

1. Increase the cost of basic marines to 16 or 17 pts.
2. Clarify that if you buy two psychic powers they both use the second pts listing.
3. Increase the cost of the assault cannon by 10pts.(115pts dreadnought,90pts Tornado,+30pts for Termies)
4. Clarify that Whirlwind mines hit ALL models moving over the template.
5. Make the Commanders ability LOS only like the Etheral.

thoughts?

Posted By Banesword on 06/15/2006 5:04 AM
some really simple rebalancing

1. Increase the cost of basic marines to 16 or 17 pts.
2. Clarify that if you buy two psychic powers they both use the second pts listing.
3. Increase the cost of the assault cannon by 10pts.(115pts dreadnought,90pts Tornado,+30pts for Termies)
4. Clarify that Whirlwind mines hit ALL models moving over the template.
5. Make the Commanders ability LOS only like the Etheral.

thoughts?

1.) Increasing the cost to that points level would be warranted if other changes aren't done.
2.) While I don't agree with the rules interpretation that you should do this NOW, I think it'd be fair to have it changed to that officially.
3.) I'd rather not increase the cost of the assault cannon.  Simply make it that it's rending vs. infantry and not armor.  Problem Solved.
4.) Are Whirlwinds w/ Mines that over effective that they require a nerf?  I don't see so many 3 Whirlwind armies out there, most people opt for Preds or Devs instead.
5.) Probably a good change, but it would decrease the amount of people who take him.

Why does a SM get a discounted BS4 lascanon at 15 pts while a BS3 IG trooper pays 25 pts? Of course thjey are going to min/max to get the good weapons.

 I like it the change.  It's nice, simple and effective.  It really only affects min/maxers, and is easy to comply with in terms that GW can appreciate (Q:  'I have 6 squads of 6 troops!  What am I supposed to do now?'  A: 'Buy 2 1/2 boxes of space marines!')  The rule would also be easy to publish as a simple update to the codex.

 Changing point costs require a some degree of balancing across all the armies, which can be fairly complicated.  I was hoping they were going to address it when they released 4th Ed, but I digress...

 

Step 1: Drop ATSKNF

Step 2: There's no step 2, marines would be 100% balanced.

Posted By stecal on 06/15/2006 5:58 AM
Why does a SM get a discounted BS4 lascanon at 15 pts while a BS3 IG trooper pays 25 pts? Of course thjey are going to min/max to get the good weapons.

Simple really.

With the way IG are now, you buy them in platoons, and if Lascannons were say 10 Points and Plasmaguns were only 5 Points, then you'd have a 10 Man Guard squad with Las/Plas cost only 75 Points, where they could take an ungodly number of these squads.  Remember that while a 5 or 6 Man Las/Plas squad for Marines is highly effective and very undercosted you can only ever take 6 of them before you run out of FoC slots.

You could fit quite a lot more Las/Plas squads into a guard army, especially if they were as cheap in relation to what the SM's pay for their guns.

Thats 85 points per squad for IG squad. Lets pro-rate the costs of the minimal JSO for four squads (40 points)
you're up to 95 points.

vs. 155 for the marine squad (ten men). Lets say you have a 1000 points to dedicate for lascannons. The differential is there but not substantial.

Pt per squad BS chance to hit No. shots per points No. hits per turn
95 3 0.4998 10.52631579 5.261052632
155 4 0.6664 6.451612903 4.299354839

This does not account for plasmas, which statistically would cause far greater casualties to the IG themselves from overheat than would impact the marines (especially rapid fire), nor does it take into account bolter/lasgun firepower.


Inverse and go min/man with 5 man marine squads (again just lascannons). The numbers start to get freaky strong for the marines. Thats a 50% greater hit number.

Pt per squad BS chance to hit No. shots per points No. hits
95 3 0.4998 10.52631579 5.261052632
85 4 0.6664 11.76470588 7.84



1000

Yes marines take less lascannons, but this costs disproportionately higher for IG (without all the other marine benefits), leaving the marines to allocate points on other areas.

Of course, if I've done my numbers wrong then I'll have to reply "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor not a mathematician!"

I agree with Yak...a points boost (17-18) would solve most of the problem.

Their HQ units (particularly the Librarian and Commander) are also underpriced as is. So either give them a points hike or tone down their abilities. I wish they'd use the FAQ as a opportunity to tone down Fury (make it require LOS), but if the Spanish ones are any indication, that's not going to happen.

SMs have a list of advantages a mile long, but I wouldn't mind them if they just paid an appropriate points cost for them.

All I have to say is 24 inch Fear.... Not cool....

I would agree with Ixe, w/o ATSKNF marines are 15pt models.

But that's like saying, without we'll be back necrons are 18pts models. You cant just remove what makes them space marines.
Higher points cost for marines is better, preventing hordes of marines that still have their uber stat lines.

Without WBB necrons would be 13pt models (gauss weapons are decent but lack of CC ability is huge)

also, heavy weapons are more expensive if you can have more of them in a Squad. just compare Tactical Squad Lascannons with Devastator Lascannons

Another thing that would balance out marines per points is to bring back the save modifier.

Necron Warriors 20 points? Okay can they regroup if under half strength now? Can they reroll failed moral checks? Can they still be sweeping advanced? Why aren't these machines fearless? I'd pay 20 points if they were fearless and make their weapon skill 3 to compensate. Codexes are being rereleased to make armies competitive to the 40k standard (The Space Marines) The Necron Codex will likely not be rereleased because A) Necrons are pretty damn good, B) Their special rules are exclusive to their own race and for the most part do not differ from the Universal Special Rules and C) The design team seem to have little interest in them at all. They lack the character and fluff that make all the other armies so much more fun.

I still have trouble against Marines with my Necron army because I haven't adopted one of the 2 ways the army has to be played to be competitive. A competitive list has a configuration of Warriors, a Lord, 2 Monoliths, Immortals. Maybe if there are some points to burn (and there rarely are) a few scarab swarms. Its a boring army. I try to include units that play differently, I love my Deciever and use him every game. They play like they are described in the fluff. Deadly, swift and efficient. The only units that need to be changed are Wraiths (Make them 40 points even, Necrons don't have filler wargear to complete a list) and Pariahs need to become Necrons.

How about taking the heavy weapon choice out of Tac Squads?

They can still have two special weapons.

There's somthing I think your all missing here, GW just redid the SM dex and there's little chance of them ever nerfing there glory boys. The fact that marines basic gun shoots threw just about every other armies armor like tissue paper sucks, the fact that there under priced sucks, there no fear rule is over powering but we'll just have to get over it and try to over come.

Congratulations aauugh:

This is the "proposed rules" forum.  As in: rules that people propose that they think will make the game better.  Nobody here actually believes these rules will be instituted, especially rules that nerf the smurfs.  This is purely hypothetical.  If you feel like it, you can join in.  Use your imagination; come with me, take my hand as we journey into that marvelous place that is a fair and balanced 40k.

Posted By the cabbage on 06/19/2006 4:40 AM
How about taking the heavy weapon choice out of Tac Squads?

They can still have two special weapons.

Two plasma guns with tank hunters in a CSM army makes em almost as good with more shots at closer range.

But more balanced I think.

Although they have more shots they become more pricey and I was really surprised last night that only one out of four self immolated.

My maths may be dodgy but I have calculated that in a six turn game if you start with six plasma gunners and assume two shots each every turn five are likely to die by overheating.  Not that good, that around 10% of a fifteenhundred point army killed by itself.

Now a couple of infiltrating melta gunners thats a different kettle of underpants!

I would make a number of AP4 weapons AP5 to increase survivability of other armies elite units.
Not a direct redress of the marine problem but it would help accross the board, i think.

Darkchild

The main thing, in my opinion, is the imbalance of available AP weapons.

There is a serious lack of AP3 weapons, compared to AP4 and effective AP2 (considering that against infantry, AP1 is effectively AP2, as are power weapons et al in close combat).

What you end up with is 3+ saves that are vastly superior to 4+ due to the huge gulf in weaponry between AP4 and AP3, and then underpriced with relation to AP2 due to the fact that, by and large, the weapons you use to crack 3+ saves are the same weapons you use to crack 2+ saves.

I agree that power armor, in general, is undercosted, but it's more a result of weapon design patterns than anything else -- the costs look a lot more reasonable if you assume that a 3+ model will get its save about as often as a 4+ model will, which just doesn't mesh with the reality of the game.

How many S5 or higher guns exist (outside of Tyranids) that are not at least AP4? -- at least, those that aren't standard weapons for squad types (e.g., Pulse Rifles and Burst Cannons).

Instead of recosting power armor, changing out weapons may end up a better solution...

Make Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers AP5.
Make Autocannons and plasma in general AP3.
Redo the Assault Cannon again, fire whoever set it up the way it is now, and publically apologize for it.

You'd still need to add AP2 guns in there, since then you would see 2+ saves be gods. I'd leave the heavy flamer AP4, since, well, it isn't exactly that far ranging.

The autocannons I could see getting the boost and then suddenly it would be a good choice for guard and chaos. The fact that they wouldn't let any Tau unit besides a heavy (rail rifle), or the Vespids (fragile unit) in the Tau arsenal speaks volumes of how little GW wants marines to have to fear someone shooting through their armor.

I do agree about most of the points of the post if not almost all of them. Especially firing whoever made the assault cannon rending.

Where's the dead horse..... Oh, here it is, let's beat it some more. Blah blah blah, marines are good, and no matter how much we complain GW is not going to change that right now. I just wish, they'd promote other armies as hard as marines so we see a more mixed enviroment.

I have never understood why eveyone thinks that rending assault cannons = cheese. Face it the 3rd edition assault cannon sucked, so for 4th edition they buffed it up a bit. I dont know about the rest of you but I'm lucky to get 1 or 2 rending shots in 6 turns from 2 assault cannons!

As for fixing marines, well:
-Stopping min/ max squads with special/ heavy weapon sounds like a good idea (return to the combat squad sysytem?) but then again you would also have to change Chaos marine squads too.

-Increasing points cost of marines to an acceptable level would be helpful, but again this would lead to changes for Marines, Chaos, Grey knights, Sisters of Battle & Necrons?

-Dropping ATSKNF would I think really help balance marines. Chaos dont get it, or any other race so why should marines? It would also encoruage players to be more aware of the use of moral in the game as every other race has to factor in falling back, regrouping etc into their tactics. A marine squad falls back- so what? Automatic regroup!

-Would love to see a return of the armour save modifier but alas GW has already expressed its thoughts on the subject

I have never understood why eveyone thinks that rending assault cannons = cheese. Face it the 3rd edition assault cannon sucked, so for 4th edition they buffed it up a bit. I dont know about the rest of you but I'm lucky to get 1 or 2 rending shots in 6 turns from 2 assault cannons!

Because the gun is, quite literally, too good at everything. It's better than a Twin-Linked Lascannon against AV14, for Christ's Sake -- and then, simultaneously, it's better than a Heavy Bolter against infantry.

For reference, there's plenty of complaining about Obliterators -- and I dislike their weapon choices for similar reasons, regardless of the fact that I do play Chaos -- and from 12-24", an Assault Cannon is a better option than anything an Obliterator can muster up against any target.

The problem isn't so much that it's good against specific targets, but it's very good against anything.

Note, however, that there's a distinction between something being "cheese" and being "significantly overpowered". Assault Cannons are the latter; I don't subscribe to the former existing.

Disclosure: I just assembled three of them this weekend for my Space Wolves.

2nd Ed. assault cannons were godlike; up to 9 shots, str. 8, d10 wounds; it was approximately the same as a krak missile against vehicles. In response, they toned it down for 3rd, maiking it the gimp-gun. 4th has swung it back the other way. I just wish it'd settle on a reasonable balance.

Wow, i think this is a first for me. Usually everyone is complaining about eldar. Marines are balanced because everyone has stuff that chews thru their armor.
Eldar-starcannon, darkreapers
Orks- choppas, choppas, and choppas
guard- my 3 battle cannons
tyranids- rending, monsterous creatures
sisters- meltas and acts of faith
chaos- if you have trouble using chaos, then find another game.
dark eldar- darklances, incubi, and some of the best squad leader upgrades of any army.
necrons- i kill your stuff, you kill my stuff, then half of it gets back up.
tau- railguns..... plasma guns on suits and a new sniper rifle that is hhmmmm whats that AP ohh yeah 3!!!

and before everyone goes off saying yeah your a marine player so your biased. here are my armies Eldar-8k+pts, orks 5k+pts, marines 7k+pts, sisters about 3k pts, IG 5k+pts, necrons 2k pts, chaos 3-4k pts even my least played army has at least 10 games under it. So is a basic marines stat line good, yeah it is. do those good stats mean a thing when the eldar player has 10starcannons shooting 30 shots a turn??? not really.

Neil

do those good stats mean a thing when the eldar player has 10starcannons shooting 30 shots a turn??? not really.

Yea they do, it means that 15 starcannon shots actually hitting kill 12 marines. 180pts of marines killed by how many points of starcannons?

The big thing is that even with the starcannon list, you have the problem that if the starcannons aren't on vehicles, the surviving marines chew through the guardians with their basic gun. If they are on vehicles, assault cannons will tend to mess up the vehicles.

The biggest issue here is that some stuff in that codex needs to be adjusted. Assault Cannons are a no-brainer. Just liek the starcannon was. A cyclone missile launcher is no longer a useful alternative since the assault cannon is clearly better.
Multimelta speeders aren't a useful alternative since the assault cannon can do the job better. Twin-lascannons aren't as useful since an assault cannon can do the job better. See where this is an issue? If all the guns are useful for a SPECIFIC purpose, then players have to actually design their list with tactical considerations and play to the strengths of the list they make. Currently marines shove assault cannons whenever the option is presented and are fine. Just like the starcannon is better than any of the other options because it can do anything they can, better than them, until you reach AV13.

The other issue is that marines are cheap. Not play wise, point wise. A marine has a statline that is almost a bargain at 15pts. Add ATSKNF and they become horribly potent. You can't outnumber a marine force 2 to 1 and have any hope of being able to play attrition. Marine's saves actually cause casualties to be traded higher than a 2 to 1 ratio.

Last night a 70 model Tau army faced 76 templars. His army getting free moves after being shot so they could now be in range with plasma was comical. He had much better saves and I had to literally pick on a unit and blow it to shreds or else the thing became a pain in the very next round. (Single lascannon survives and kills an Ionhead with 1 shot). When you concentrate 600pts of your army and fail to kill 200, that indicates that they are very survivable and probably a little cheap.

Easiest solution for the Assault Cannon: Restrict it's use to Dreadnaughts and Terminators only. Landspeeders shouldn't get the best movement and shooting of the army all in one cheap package. you could still field a ton of assault cannons, but you wouldn't be able to fly circles around our opponent while it happened.

Or make the Assault Cannon not rending. Why the hell they gave rending to a ranged weapon I will never know.

As a Space Marine Player, I have no problem removing rending from the Assault Cannon (it gives me a reason to break out my Multi-melta dread again).

I also don't have any problem in making Drop Pods AV10 all around (there's no reason I can think of that they have a higher AV).

Agrees with nobody on the drop pod issue- no idea why a drop pod should have higher armour, and cost less points than a rhino.

As for the assault cannon, restricting use to terminators and dreadnoughts would be fine by me (dont even use land speeders) and might encourgae players to try using speeders with multi-meltas.

However, without rending very few people would even take the assault cannon to begin with. Perhaps the cannon should only have 3 shots instead of 4 (like 3rd edition)

This could balance the possible chances of the assault cannon getting rending, yet still leave the weapon as a viable option?

For the record I dont use drop pods and only take 2 assault cannons in my 2000 point army.

Wait a minute, are you seriously saying that str6 ap4 heavy4 is not a valid option? That it is not a powerful gun? What are you smoking. That is one heck of a hoard, light vehical killer. It is worth it against skimmers alone.

For the record in my army list I'd still take that option for my tornados.

On my terminators, it'd force me to reconsider the Cyclones.

"Wait a minute, are you seriously saying that str6 ap4 heavy4 is not a valid option?"

How many assault cannons did you see around before they were improved in 4th edition? Droping rending would of course leave the assault cannon as a potent horde killer but only becasue they have 4 shots this edition.

Then again I have always said rending is over-rated, so keeping the cannon at 4 shots would be fine by me (I never get a rending hits anyway)

The reason most people avoided the assault cannon like the plague in third wasn't the number of shots, but the fact it blew up if you rolled triple ones.

"The reason most people avoided the assault cannon like the plague in third wasn't the number of shots, but the fact it blew up if you rolled triple ones."

Ah yes, I forgot that in 3rd edition assault cannons had the Gets Hot! rule.

To be honest, there are an enormous amount of things people are not taking into consideration regarding the balance of Marines, particularly in regards to their shooting.  For example:

I take 6 min/maxed squads of 6 marines each with lascannon/plasma gun, no vet sergeant, and let's just say I play Dark Angels so I don't even have to worry about failing leadership saves.  That is 690 points and 36 models.  I can choose to target six things and have six points from which I can fire.  I have also almost completely sacrificed my ability to hold up in close combat if something assaulty gets in and starts smacking me around as well as my ability to field more effective anti-horde weapons in tacticals.

Now, for 720 points, a Guard player gets two 3 squad platoons for 8 manuever units with lascannon/plasma gun and 70 models.  They can choose 8 targets and can have better fire coverage of the table with 33% more firing points.  They have also retained a fairly effective anti-horde punch due to the ability to put out over 100 lasgun shots at close range.  They also still have the ability to put out even more troops armed in different configurations.

Regarding the ATSKNF rule, I'd say this is well balanced against the fact that your basic Marine has a mere 8 for leadership.  You'd need to spend the points if you want to improve that.  Additionally, other armies have their own special leadership rules.  Sticking with the Guard, if you've ever tried to go up against a Guard player with a Heroic Senior Officer and a Commissar in a squad with the Company Standard and virtually every squad in the army with at least one model within 12", you'll know what rock-hard leadership is.  To take Chaos, an Undivided Mark (for 1 point) is absolutely awesome, and any other mark makes the unit Fearless.

Finally, Space Marine weapons are good, but the longest ranged of them is 48".  If you've ever played on a 4x8 table against Guard in a corner, you know this just isn't good enough.  The Assault Cannon sacrifices significant range over other, more specialized weapons such as lascannons and heavy bolters, and is not cheap to boot.

I'm sorry, but I think the opportunity cost of min/maxing tactical squads is plenty of balance.  If you have a problem with it, learn how to over come that tactic.

Posted By nobody on 06/30/2006 4:18 PM
The reason most people avoided the assault cannon like the plague in third wasn't the number of shots, but the fact it blew up if you rolled triple ones.

Ah, yes, the 1/216 chance of losing the weapon.  I only rolled that twice (ironically on the same turn, the first time I ever used them) in my two years of tournament and friendly play with 3rd Ed assault cannons.  I took them because they added some firepower to my landspeeders and I wanted variety in my terminator squads.  They served me all right, but they weren't the most efficient weapons I fielded.  Now with the 4 rending shots, I don't take any more than I did then.  I want to have some "reach out and touch someone" capabilities, and using Tank Hunters with my Cyclones I find to be quite effective.

"Regarding the ATSKNF rule, I'd say this is well balanced against the fact that your basic Marine has a mere 8 for leadership. You'd need to spend the points Additionally, other armies have their own special leadership rules"

What? Ld 8 for a basic trooper is bloody high, not "mere"
As for special leadership rules, marines have their own- you can take a Master and have your entire army Ld 10!

In Fantasy 8 is a great leadership number, but in 40K almost everyone has it or better.  The only races without a basic 8 are IG, Tau, and Orks, and each has easy ways of overcoming that (Tau Ethereals and Bonding Knives, IG Leadership rule, and Orks Mob Check rule).  Anything you do to improve that leadership costs points and opportunity cost.  Want that Ld10 Master?  That's one less Fearless and Rites of Hatred Chappie who can join any squad, or one less Librarian with any number of nasty powers.  Plus, a single Battle Cannon round can end that little advantage instantly.  You've got so many points sunk into that Master that you can't afford to have him hiding out in the back serving as a leadership battery like you can with IG.

Posted By ChrisLS on 06/30/2006 4:52 PM
In Fantasy 8 is a great leadership number, but in 40K almost everyone has it or better.  The only races without a basic 8 are IG, Tau, and Orks, and each has easy ways of overcoming that (Tau Ethereals and Bonding Knives, IG Leadership rule, and Orks Mob Check rule).  Anything you do to improve that leadership costs points and opportunity cost.  Want that Ld10 Master?  That's one less Fearless and Rites of Hatred Chappie who can join any squad, or one less Librarian with any number of nasty powers.  Plus, a single Battle Cannon round can end that little advantage instantly.  You've got so many points sunk into that Master that you can't afford to have him hiding out in the back serving as a leadership battery like you can with IG.

1. Tau Ethereals are never taken by serious players. I can re-roll anything in LOS, but that means my guy has to be either attached to a squad, which is bad, or hiding behind one, where indirect weapons "happen" to scatter on him and his lack of a save. Whoops, now the whole army has to check. 2. Orks have the mob check. Having fought them I can tell you it doesn't work well when you cut them down so fast that they have to roll a 3 for their mob check. Unlike other leadership re-rolls it is entirely based on size of unit and that means it can be modified by a smart player to be almost useless. 3. You do not lose a Chaplain with the new codex if you really want one. Take the Master, give him 2 lightning claws and terminator honors, now take a retinue and attach the Chaplain. You now have a squad that when it charges has 2 I 5 or 6 ICs with power weapons. Or you could attach the Librarian to the squad. 4. Ignoring everything else, a master naked is less than 80pts. Giving him a power weapon and having him be a countercharge unit means you can usually keep a unit from getting hurt in close combat. As for other stuff: that 720pts of Guard vs 690pts of marines forgot 2 major factors. The guard may get 8 shots, but they both average 4 hits. The marines also have the advantage of being able to rapidfire their plasma with impunity. Guard shooting plasma at close range tend to see their squads reduced to 9 guys and a smoking body. Those plasmas cost the same points and aren't anywhere near as effective. The other problem guard have with this is that the marines have plenty of fast moving choices with which to either cut down guard or force guard to fire into. Heck, marine transports can be equipped to kill either tanks or troops, the Chimera is only good at killing light vehicles and troops.

Heck, marine transports can be equipped to kill either tanks or troops, the Chimera is only good at killing light vehicles and troops.

~Marine Transports are the suk. Drop Pods are King. No Rhino rush and c'mon a razorback.... It's been like 2 years since I've seen anyone take this, and I haven't seen one in a serious list since 4th ed.

~Guard Chimeras are great at their point cost/level of output, better armor and serve as a cheap weapon battery with shots that are great in #.

Chimeras are substandard.  Armor 10 on the side is poppable by anything you are likely to face on average (there's a reason you don't see guard mechanized as muc as in v3).  They are relatively expensive for the firepower they provide-the absence of twin linked is pretty harsh.

Interesting that Tau have a cheaper vehicle, with more shots, better side armor, and is a skimmer.

 

Want to hear something even funnier? Lets take ChrisLS example and place his black templar army 24 inches from a guard army on a open table. We are going to completly ignore moral for this example, Just two sides blasting at each other. Even if the marines shoot first, the guard should own the marines in this instance.... Well guess what? They don't, they get crushed. If you put moral in the picture it just gets even sillier.

First off, if the Guard player puts his troops 24" away from a BT player, he deserves to lose.  Second, if Mr. Guard player does something incredibly stupid like targeting separate BT Crusader squads, he again deserves to lose.

If I'm a Guard player against BTs, here are the things I'm going to do.

1) Hug the board edge, preferably in some kind of corner fortress.
2) Place some sacrificial Sentinels far away from the fortress, but closer to the BTs than the fortress.  Use their Scout moves to place them out of the way of any heavy weapons.  Any Righeous Zeal moves must move towards the closest enemy unit.  If that takes them farther away from my firebase, well that's too bad.
2) Use the tanks and Basilisks first to put pie plates all over those nice little 3+ saves.  Focus in particular any assault marines or other fast movers.  Hopefully the Basilisks will pin the buggers.
3) Use my lascannons and missile launchers to finish off any squads that were hit by the big guns.  Keep the fire focused on one squad at a time.  You can't get a Righteous Zeal move if you're a smoking crater, and if two BTs get to move an exta 6", who cares?
4) If any of the BTs do manage to get close enough, move the squad (WHAT?!? Guard MOVE?) out of range of the charge to allow other overlapping fields of fire to finish the BTs off.  If that isn't possible, move the squad into rapid fire range and hope my plasma gunner takes one of the power armored fiends with him.  Fair trade in my mind, and if I get lucky I kill two of them.  Also, have a squad of Ogryns backing up the infantry as a counter-charge unit.

That, gentlemen, is called TACTICS.  Try using them before calling for rules changes.

Midnight makes some good points, and I'd say those are effective ways to use the Marines.  I still make the arguement that you do sacrifice something when you give up the opportunity to have independent characters who can join any squad.  Plus, if you start stacking up characters in a command squad (and remember, they must be part of a command squad) you're sinking an ENORMOUS amount of points into that squad.  It also leaves open the possibility of dropping pie plates on them and killing them all with one shot.

Under the old rules, yes, taking an Ethereal wasn't the greatest idea, but particularly now that they can have BS4 Fire Warrior body guards, that's pretty darn good.  Not everyone is going to take it, but there is stil something to be said for it.

For Orks, mob checks are most effective with numerous, massive mobs.  Yeah, one or two mobs will get nailed, but if you've got 6 of 20, that is OK.  Play Kult of Speed and it's not an issue since you're in close combat on Turn 2.

I maintain the point still exists - in 40K Ld8 is average, not exceptional.

another point that most people seem to miss is that in 40k the marine stat line is considered the base line of the game, not the guardsmen. fantasy uses the base human as its baseline for points.

you also cant use base troopers of each army as the test of wether or not an army is over-under powered. as this does not take into account the Support avail to each army. Marines have the best basic troopers, get over it. that is their strength.

I have to agree with chrisL tactics are key. you dont use, them you dont win. Where I play the marines are about 50-50 (win lose record), but that is because the non-marine generals dont try to use their troops as crappy marines. they use them as they are meant to be used.

neil

Thank you for proving my point. The fact that the Marine player does not have to use tactics, and that the guard player does indicates that there is no balance. What happens to the guard player when the black templar player uses tactics? Hmmm? What hapens when he blows up the av10 open topped vehical? What happens when his drop pods rain down on you? What happens when he uses cover to advance to with in charge range? What happens when he gets with in that oh so short 36"inch minimum range of the indirect bassie? What I did was to put the guard in the MOST favorable conditions for them, no close combat, no moral, no blocked firing lanes, and you know what happend? They still lost. Do not talk to me about tactics.

Oh yeah, in the simulation I ran, the entire guard army focused on one BT squad at a time until the heavy weapon and plasma gun were destroyed. However the black templar player did the same. I even ran it so that the command squads were targeted last even though any smart player would have shot at them first (5 bodies to drop a plasma gun and lascannon).

I reread the posts. I did not see where either of us said that marines do not need tactics.

I am sorry that you have so much trouble defeating Marines, I really am. I wish that i could tell you that i have trouble with them too, but I do not. Point is i usually wipe out the marines. The marine players are usually whining about how "broken" and "cheesy" IG are. The marine players just have trouble getting points out of a guard army. I beat marines with a balanced force, if I Min/Max and drop the H.bolters, grenade launchers and autocannon i usually take its even worse for the marines.
Just because you have trouble beating a specific army does not mean that the army is "broken" what you need to do is reevaluate your tactics, and your ability to deploy your army.

Neil

Well I am happy you have no problem beating the 6 year olds in your neighborhood. I do pretty good myself, win the majority of my games and even taken a local RTT or two, but that is neither hear not their. In the future please refute my arguments before making snippy comments. You tell me., in ChrisLS example, on an open field at 24 inch range, with no ld taken into account. How many marines are left on the board, assuming that the marines shoot first? You can do it however you like. Personally I just took averages 8 lascannons and 8 plasma guns firing kills 7 marines.

Um, you fire the Basilisk directly?  You can still do that, you know.  And I'll point out that the 24" was your example, not mine.  Again, if Guard (or just about anyone but Tyranids) sets up within 24" of Templars, they deserve what they get.

Every tactic has a counter.  Drop pods?  Scatter the force so he can't tie everybody up with one or two squads or field close combat units (Ogryns, Grey Knights, Arco-flagellants - remember you can field allies) that can counterattack.  Lots of cover?  Force him to go through the difficult terrain by controlling the fire lanes and drop indirect on him.  Use Leman Russes.  Is he going to get in close combat anyway?  Here's a fun one - field a command squad with lots of advisors: Priest with eviserator, psycher with Honorifica Imperialis and force weapon, commissar with power fist, plus the heroic senior officer himself.  Make sure you include a medic, give the HSO the Medallion Crimson and an invulnerable save.  Use Stormtroopers with lots of plasma.  Use demolition charges (I have had my world rocked by those things playing Deathwing).

In the end, this is a game, and a balanced game contrary to your beliefs.  There are counters to everything.  If you don't enjoy it, as for help or play something else.  I'm obviously not changing your mind, so I'm going to take a break from the hofflenosh.

Tell me then ChriLS, what is the IG counter for a dropping librarian with fear of the darkness?

This isn't about Marines, and I apologize, but I need to say this. So, Chris, think this game is "balanced"? Well, consider Orks and Tyranids. They are both supposed to be armies that focus on assault, right? So, they should both be equally good at assault, with some variations, right? Wrong. Tyranids can do everything Orks can do, better and for less points. They even outshoot Orks if they want to.

Also, I must assume that you've never played against Dark Eldar, because anyone who has played as or against DE and goes on to claim that 40k is "balanced" is either a raving loon or a bald-faced liar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slinging mud at you here, I'm just saying: play against DE. They will lose and lose hard unless you don't use tactics. And if you're Marines they'll still lose. I have a buddy who plays DE. His win-loss record is currently 0-9 with his current list. His previous lists did worse.

ThisIsBatCountry: Local guy plays witch cult. He does pretty well. only starts two squads on the table. rest in the webway. when they come on they move twelve, disembark 2", fleet and then assault. its pretty sick. He does well with them. Has some bad games but seems to winn more than lose.

foil7102: i see one problem with your example. you dont set up your troops within 24" of marines. preferably you set up outside of 32" that way he has to move 2 turns to get into bolter range.this is easier to do with the scenarios that set up in corners. HIs bolters will eat you up i will agree with that. the key with guard is that most other armies basic weapons are better than the lasgun. what you have to do is make your opponent(with whatever army not just marines) decide if he wants to duel at long range or spend a few turns moving up. Many marine playes take a minimum of H-bolters in their armies wich makes the dueling option less palatable. unless you take tanks. then his lascannon squads stay put to pour fire into your tanks. giving your troopers more time to fire into the marine squads that are advancing. really though it comes down to who is a better player. if the marine player is better. he will win if the guard player is better than he willl win. also remember to keep in mind mission objectives. I have won games that i otherwise would have lost because i kept in mind what the mission was about.

To focus on the whole thread though some armies do need a boost. I agree that orks have gone to long without an update and they need one. Kult of speed is pretty good, but the footsloggers need a bump. It is just poor logic to say my orks are underpowered in X way so then my oponents armies need to be depowered. the proper response would be my orks are underpowered in Y way and they could be improved in this way.

Some armies also do better against certain opponents for example orks, especially kult of speed own marine armies with lots of terminators due to the choppa. Eldar typically due well against marines, this is why i am not surprised about the rumor of the decrease in the starcannons stats.

Can we get back to the point of this?

Marines have toys for countering any occasion, extremely cheap heavy weapons, a weapon that can pull any role required of it, and have the ability to boost their Leadership along with a special rule that means it is unlikely you will ever get them to leave the field. While other armies have some of these, none except some flavors of Chaos have all of these.

They are also cheaper than they should be with that statline and ATSKNF. Considering the cliff of armor save effectiveness that is 3+ vs anything worse, they are making out like bandits.

So how do we fix this so that Marine Players will still have a forgivable army that allows mistakes while not being one that allows you to dispense with tactics and just pull some gimmick that wins the game or just slog it out and never care about doign anything in the way of tactics?

Posted By Blank on 06/27/2006 3:07 PM
Where's the dead horse..... Oh, here it is, let's beat it some more. Blah blah blah, marines are good

Right on, brother. Don't just line up across the field and complain about how the odds are stacked against you. Of COURSE an army that's good all-around is going to kill you in that situation. Quit worrying about Marines and learn how to play with your own army. A hard-fought victory achieved by sound tactics against a tough opponent is better any day than winning with an army that has everything going for it.

Hawkes, You just proved that you do not think before you post.

Hi, I am an army thats supposed to be really really good at shooting, but crappy at everything else
Oh, Hello, I am an army that is supposed to be pretty good at everything

So who is going to win when these two armies line up and shoot at each other???

The fact that it is the space marines, the army that is just supposed to be pretty good at everything, who win makes things a little odd.

The problem may well lie in the nature of the game system.  Close combat and shooting just don't work terribly well together - armies are best when they only have a few shooting units to pick off the more vulnerable but entrenched enemy shooters or when they only have a few CC units to act as counterassault or as speed bumps.

Since the design principle behind Marines is that they're supposed to be bringing equal parts CC and shooting, they're balanced for that kind of play.  Therefore, when someone breaks the design by bringing a list weighted heavily towards shooting (or CC, I suppose, but that's more a Blood Angels and Chaos thing), the army is overpowered.

The game simply doesn't allow for an army to work best with an even mix of unit types.  The rules reward a player for bringing homogenous defensive profiles and for focusing on a single phase in which to do damage.

I think SM have always been the best force throughout all editions; because: GW suck d*ck [though they do make great miniatures - too f***ing expensive!]

I use 40K rules with Copplestone Castings minis (check out their future wars stuff its excellent!) more gritty less homo-errotic for sure!

Why do they alway have to make everything look so kooky!  The  mind boggles! Their Middle Earth stuff is good (cos they are proportioned - but the rules for LOTR are sh*t to say the least!)

GW who'd 'ave 'em!

Space Marines: Its all rigged; its all rigged for the love of the emperor (or whatever deity you worship) IT IS ALL RIGGED! F***ing A**holes...  and why not make it boring!  We crave disenfranchisement anyway so what the hell [though i might add other than a couple of LOTR minis i ain't given them suckers a dime for a long time - Facist Pigs that they are!]

I feel better for that!

To sum up: Check out Copplestone Castings, Future Wars! (saying that; they're £1.50 a model now! shock horror!)

I know lets make a shop that sells miniatures and then price them to the extent that no-one (in their riight mind) buys them.  Thats a good idea! Pay our employees jack sh*t and live the high life spending a fortune on cocain and prostitutes!

And all in the name of kids toys, no less... you make me sick GW; oh yes you do...

...Oh, you don't give a rats ass! Well thats all fine and dandy then you Zenophobic Imperialist era craving zealots; thats just great, why don't you just grab the money and run...

...Oh, you already did!  I'm so glad for you... ...F***ing B*st*rd inbred (spelling?) Capitalists!

Word!

Posted By Danja on 07/14/2006 12:46 PM
I think SM have always been the best force throughout all editions; because: GW suck d*ck [though they do make great miniatures - too f***ing expensive!]

I use 40K rules with Copplestone Castings minis (check out their future wars stuff its excellent!) more gritty less homo-errotic for sure!

Why do they alway have to make everything look so kooky!  The  mind boggles! Their Middle Earth stuff is good (cos they are proportioned - but the rules for LOTR are sh*t to say the least!)

GW who'd 'ave 'em!

Space Marines: Its all rigged; its all rigged for the love of the emperor (or whatever deity you worship) IT IS ALL RIGGED! F***ing A**holes...  and why not make it boring!  We crave disenfranchisement anyway so what the hell [though i might add other than a couple of LOTR minis i ain't given them suckers a dime for a long time - Facist Pigs that they are!]

I feel better for that!

To sum up: Check out Copplestone Castings, Future Wars!

 

Wow if thats not a cry for help I don't know what is :kiss:

Not so much a cry for help but a need for justice and liberty in the world of gaming.

Keep the faith my brothers!

There will be a day when all gamers of sound mind can go get some minis, and still have enough for the bus ride home and a couple of pints of the good stuff (age restrictions apply).  Untill then I think it is justified to *female dog* and moan!

I don't see the point sticking with a bunch of money grabbing (I'll stop swearing now) monkeys, when there is a world of (at least more) affordable high quality miniatures out there...

...I mean i can remember when it was £2.50 a blister; what is it now £6 odd, that is way off the mark... lets pay the shareholders yay!

Lets not pay the share holders, lets have a damn good game of something cool with the people we like!  and support an independant Casting business...

Word up!








And don't get me started on Warhammer [what the hell has happened there in the last ten years - the models look like idiots in armour nower days!]

A cry for help! don't make me puke! Suddenly ive got cheaper minis that look more realistic - oh yeh i need help from GW, I thinkist not my good friend!

Posted By Danja on 07/14/2006 1:05 PM
Not so much a cry for help but a need for justice and liberty in the world of gaming.

Keep the faith my brothers!

There will be a day when all gamers of sound mind can go get some minis, and still have enough for the bus ride home and a couple of pints of the good stuff (age restrictions apply).  Untill then I think it is justified to *female dog* and moan!

I don't see the point sticking with a bunch of money grabbing (I'll stop swearing now) monkeys, when there is a world of (at least more) affordable high quality miniatures out there...

...I mean i can remember when it was £2.50 a blister; what is it now £6 odd, that is way off the mark... lets pay the shareholders yay!

Lets not pay the share holders, lets have a damn good game of something cool with the people we like!  and support an independant Casting business...

Word up!

 

Okkkk...






And don't get me started on Warhammer [what the hell has happened there in the last ten years - the models look like idiots in armour nower days!]

A cry for help! don't make me puke! Suddenly ive got cheaper minis that look more realistic - oh yeh i need help from GW, I thinkist not my good friend!

If its any consolation i feel a damn sight better for that rant; and let's face it, its time someone said it!

I mean basing the SM's on medieval knights how homo is that!

I bet they all bang each other in the tub like Football players after the big game!  I mean Spacewolves and Ultramarines are cool but to think they invented Black Templars and Imperial fists (though that is quite a cool name to be fair)!

What is going on here!

Orks are good but they make 'em expensive to buy and easily defeatable, what use is that!  Might as well just take your money and whip you to within an inch of your life for christ sake!


Actually going against what i said earlier the minis are better nowerdays (at least 40K - the Fantasy stuff looks well stupid!) but at 80p per plastic [or whatever the USDollar is] is just plain selfish, twisted, money grabbing filth in all its deplorable ugliness!  Still a good game thoughto be fair...

Getting back to the thread at hand: I think SM models should cost at least 18pts and the people who use them should be publicly shamed for jumping on the band wagon!

Word!

What exactly is the point of this discusion?? does anything actually come of it??
MArines Are the points they are. Simple as that. Untill one of you guys either works for GW making there new codexs or kidnaps the head of GW and forces him to make the changes on your behalf marine will stay as they are.

They are the emporors Finest. Get over it already.

40K proposed rules.

You know, so we can propose how to fix things.

yeah you guys keep proposing. who actually changes the rules?? is this like a national movement?? me thinks not. do you send your proosed rules to GW with some signatures for them to briefly consider then put in the bin with all the other sensible requests they get sent from hobbyiest around the world.?? they will not change as somebody put it earlier SM are GW glory boys. if they play crap not many people would play gw. SM are there little cash crop. Remember most people originally got into the hobby with SM>

yeah you guys keep proposing. who actually changes the rules?? is this like a national movement?? me thinks not. do you send your proosed rules to GW with some signatures for them to briefly consider then put in the bin with all the other sensible requests they get sent from hobbyiest around the world.?? they will not change as somebody put it earlier SM are GW glory boys. if they play crap not many people would play gw. SM are there little cash crop. Remember most people originally got into the hobby with SM

Many players will, within their group, adopt house rules to make changes to armies that are OTT or too weak (HBMC's group, I think, has pretty much re-written all of the codices and most of the rulebook for their own games). GW has also (well, used to anyway), changed rules in the past after feedback from gamers. Examples include terminators having 5+ invulnerable saves, the Ork Klanz, and the "Second Edition" Dark Eldar and Dark Angel codices.

As Chapter Approved went bye-bye and the dev staff lost a good chunk of their people, the chance of any modification being made is probably nil. The hope persists, however.

I for one, not being a Marine player, think that marines aren't that unbalanced at all. Sure their basic trooper is cheap, their heavy weapons are cheap and they have decent units for every tactical problem. BUT: there are, in the various codecies around, numerous, nay, countless units that can do certain jobs better. And you have to consider this into the point aspect of, lets say, a basic marine.

On the other hand, there are some things that go over the top in this jack of all trades army. I think we can all agree that the Assault cannon went overboard with increased firerate AND rending. And additionally, i think that the Landspeeder is the best light-skimmer in all armies. Maybe this is suppoerted by the fact that it can carry Assaultcannons.

I think we have to focus on some areas in the coex and it's possible to get it in line with the rest of the 4th edition ones.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Librarians and Drop Pods also come to mine, with an the first one being the more OOT than the letter.

I hear that but don't quite believe it at this point.
-shooting. What list has a more efficient list than the min/max las/plas combo, or the 12-5000 assault cannon list?

-HTH I can see Nids being equal. Absent our Raid repulsed friends, what list is better than a powered up BA list in the HTH department?

Khorne. Of course they are marines too....

There are some armies out there that have a good chance of winning in hand to hand against marines, the problem is getting them there in the numbers you'll need to win.

I can't see Khorne as being advantageous in CC vs. BA's.  BA's have death company and furious charge for free.  Khorne you have to pay for the Mark (and don't get the option to drop pod in close) .

 

But that is personal opinion only and I grant they are quite powerful (and as you said - marines heh heh).  Dark red marines vs. red marines : )

Posted By nobody on 07/17/2006 2:13 PM
There are some armies out there that have a good chance of winning in hand to hand against marines, the problem is getting them there in the numbers you'll need to win.

Exactly.  on an efficiency basis they are hard to top, although I wil freely grant there is far better competition on the HTH side.

 

On the shooty side I don't see an efficient comparable (new eldar codex not included).  They are cheap, have minimal support requirements, can flesh out with A cannons.

-IG are quite shooty but the BS 3 really mitigates, and they actually pay more for their lascannons.

-Tau are very shooty, but aren't as cost efficient when the BS and more rare use of low AP comes into play.

 

Many players will, within their group, adopt house rules to make changes to armies that are OTT or too weak


well thats fine if you belong to a gaming club as not all people do, most have to go to there local GW store and some only play at tournies. I still dont see the complaint with assualt cannons? ok they have greatly increased there usefullness. in 3rd they were crap. A heavy bolter was better. My argument is really simple. I play SW and get beat by the sheer firepower of Tau armies I play. I could either learn to use what I have better or play Tau myself. Its no point me moaning about how its not fair they have str 5 guns etc.

I prefer my wolves as they look better. Tau just look like frogs. If I want to win more games I should play Tau but seeing as I cant be bothered to paint them or play with them i stick to my marines.

Remember marines have to be abit better otherwise nobody would buy them.. GW would lose money as marines are there main cash cow.

B..e..e..e..f...

-its a discussion thread, therefore options will be discussed. For good or ill the werekind comes woops sorry I digress.

-hey how can puppies not look better

-But you can put as much firepower on the board as the Tau player. Get those A cannons whirring!

-However I take issue that marines HAVE to be better. They are popular for avariety of reasons. If other lists were better you'd still see a lot of mainres, but the other lists would have more sales as well.

I disagree most people in the hobbey prefer the marines due top the fluff and the fact all the kids want to be superhuman soldiers in space, they dont want to be some pointy eared fairy or some frog looking mudskipper thing. People get into the hobby through the marines. The marines bring in the sales. Assualt cannons are overated. 24 range? Only good if you can get them that close. Landspeeders?? armour 10, bolt guns and anything else str 4 or above can mash them up. usually I have seen dred, Baal etc with assualt cannons just blown up straight away before thy can get close.

Posted By beef on 07/17/2006 3:14 PM
I disagree most people in the hobbey prefer the marines due top the fluff and the fact all the kids want to be superhuman soldiers in space, they dont want to be some pointy eared fairy or some frog looking mudskipper thing. People get into the hobby through the marines. The marines bring in the sales. Assualt cannons are overated. 24 range? Only good if you can get them that close. Landspeeders?? armour 10, bolt guns and anything else str 4 or above can mash them up. usually I have seen dred, Baal etc with assualt cannons just blown up straight away before thy can get close.

B..e..e..f, its whats for dinner.  Sorry

 

Actually we're in agreement to a great extent.  Many players play marines because of the fluff, because they are inexpensive relatively speaking, and because they are easy to paint yet offer a plethora of conversion opportunities for the more advanced player. 

But thats why they don't need to be over balanced. Its also a reason I'm supportive of one list that absolutely mauls power army lists (eldar generally).  AC's are not perfection, they're just no-brainers now which make them boring (as the starcannon has been rightfully accused of). As an aside if they're losing their Baals that quickly they're not playing properly.

 

 

 

 

Actually we're in agreement to a great extent. Many players play marines because of the fluff, because they are inexpensive relatively speaking, and because they are easy to paint yet offer a plethora of conversion opportunities for the more advanced player.

Yes I agree with you there. It does also depend how people play. I definatly agree that before the AC starcannons on sqauds of war walkers were the main gripe. Ac are a no brainer and will be accused of being unbalanced untill something new comes up. I play SW and when they first came out in 3rd edition they were accused of being beardy. But then Tau were released etc etc. I read arlier yakface said basic marines should be increased to 18 pnts. that would make no difference to me as grey hunters are already 18points.

Yes I agree with you there. It does also depend how people play. I definatly agree that before the AC starcannons on sqauds of war walkers were the main gripe. Ac are a no brainer and will be accused of being unbalanced untill something new comes up. I play SW and when they first came out in 3rd edition they were accused of being beardy. But then Tau were released etc etc. I read arlier yakface said basic marines should be increased to 18 pnts. that would make no difference to me as grey hunters are already 18points.

Actually in 3rd Space Wolves earned that claim thanks to the combination of the Rhino Rush and Blood Claws with invisible power fists (nobody else had them until the armageddon codex came out later). The 4th edition rules set did tone them down a bit (mostly by killing the rhino rush).

I believe that what Yak is saying is that basic marines go up to 18 pts, and everybody else gets increased a similiar amount (except maybe thousand sons).

Posted By beef on 07/17/2006 3:14 PM
I disagree most people in the hobbey prefer the marines due top the fluff and the fact all the kids want to be superhuman soldiers in space, they dont want to be some pointy eared fairy or some frog looking mudskipper thing. People get into the hobby through the marines. The marines bring in the sales. Assualt cannons are overated. 24 range? Only good if you can get them that close. Landspeeders?? armour 10, bolt guns and anything else str 4 or above can mash them up. usually I have seen dred, Baal etc with assualt cannons just blown up straight away before thy can get close.

Only 24" Range.  Don't mind the fact that the 3 things that can take assault cannons in a codex army, Terminators, Dreads, and Landspeeders, all three can deep strike.  2 of them (Dreads and Terminators) can ALWAYS deepstrike due to their special rules and drop pods.  Landspeeders can move 12" and fire the assault cannon making it effective 36" Range.  In fact, so can Terminators and Dreads, which makes their Assault Cannons 30" Effective Range.

The fact of the matter is that Marines are too powerful in their new codex and as the other codex's are "fixed" (Eldar, and eventually Chaos) they will probably be the most powerful army in the game by a fair margin. 

I play marines, I actually really like the army and the models, but it's amazing how you have to work at not making an overbearing list when you try to come up with something effective yet fun to play.

oK HOW MANY TIMES HAv`e you seen poeple try and deppstrike and the things deepstriking dont turn up when they want them to?? whats an overbearng lis?? lots of AC's?? If you can take them then take them and stop complaining. the worst is when a marine player says "to be balanced I try not to take AC's"?? what the F@£k as for landspeeders yes they can make the range 36 but then they get shot up. deep striking is a 50-50 affair, either it works really well or it does not. If you can use loads of AC's then by all meens use them. Dont try and be a martyr and not take them out of fairness. I personally dont use them. wHEN THE CODEX CAME OUT I WAS TEMpted to do a 1500 point army with 9 ac lanspeeders and 3 ac dreds but after painting the 3rd land speeder i got bored and realised my army looked crap (not my painting but the make up of it) as playing SW i like a really expensive charactor with a hardcore assualt unit and this new 1500 pointlist was shooty and thats not my style of play so I scraped that idea.

From 2nd to 3rd edition, the cost of a basic Marine dropped from 30 points to just 15. By contrast, a Guardsman went from 10 points to 6 points. A 15-point decrease for the Marine, which is now worth only half its value, and a 4-point reduction for the Guardsman. Yep, Marines are the glory boys. They're too good, underpriced, and too many people play them, mainly because of the fluff. But that's just how it is and that's what GW needs to bring in new kiddies to the hobby. So the bottom line is, don't complain that they're too good. Instead, be just that much more satisfied in games where you beat them.

Totally agree with Hawkes. He has hit the nail on the head

Its probably been mentioned, but I'd look to the Black Templar codex to see the direction of Space Marines.  If the upcoming Dexes follow suit, basic marines might end up +1 point, and things will be overall toned down.  Generic marines will then get the same treatment in V5 when they re-release the Space Marine codex for the 74th time...

I mean, really, to simulate making a points change, next game take 1450 points rather than 1500.  That would be roughly a +1 point increase for every marine model.  Would it make them unuseable?  Unlikely.

I play Flesh Tearers using the Blood Angels rules, so I'm used to the cries of cheese and the complaining even before I set up my army (no naked vets, 8-man+ squads (only one scout), 1 speeder, maybe an assault cannon on a dread).  I avoid all the classic 'broken' parts of the list.  I still win way more than I lose (maybe its the DC and Furious Charge

Bottom line, I expect to see more of the BT treatment going forward.  They're going to 'tone down' the sub-lists, guaranteed, especially the Blood Angels. 

You want to balance marines eh.... I sware this thread comes up like every week, here up their point cost, make librarian's fear less broken, make assault cannons either with 2-3 shots or lose the friggin word rending, put limits on minmax squads i.e. you may take 1 special/hvy weapon for every 5 members of a squad....

Seriously, now eveyone let it die, marines are good and they have great gear, do you think any of us moaning means a thing to the rules? If you don't like it, make some house rules, or just look at black templars, they are god forsakenly terrible now.

What Blank says is so true. this topic soes keep coming up with the same argument. to Quote Blank "Seriously, now eveyone let it die, marines are good and they have great gear, do you think any of us moaning means a thing to the rules?"

Amen to that

While I respect your opinion and your right to have your evil marines soundly defeated by my armored company in battle, this is a Proposed Rules Forum. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it???

this is a Proposed Rules Forum. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it???

I know that haha, but what I went on to say was....

If you don't like it, make some house rules

Proposed rules for me means let's have fun twinking with the rules at home or your local game group and see how it works out for you... I know marines are insert x complaint here that's why I propose everyone just uses at home ideas to balance scenarios and armies but understands at tournements youwill see those 15 assault cannons and 2 librarians comming after you.

ok lets propose that every body should play marines and ditch the other armies. balance attained.

sounds like what GW already wants...

I don't think marines are unbalanced. Sure, from a line 'em up knock 'em down perspective those las/plas squads seem like the best unit it the game.

1-games of 40k are supposed to be played with roughly 25% of the board covered in terrain. The lack of mobility in these units is going to be a real problem with one or two size three pieces of terrain anywhere near the middle of the board.
2-how will they sieze objectives? How will they do when they have to move (recon)?
3-edlar starcannon cheese armies will eat those small squads for breakfast
4-What about hords of orcs, traitor guard, nurglings?


I've played against armies like this with Tau, Black Tempars, and Dark Eldar and I've never found them broken. Sometimes I lose and sometimes I win. That sounds plenty balanced to me!

I am definately not scared of marines, I know the assault cannon is powerful but let the following cheer you up.

I just found out that the AC comes one per sprue in the £25 box of termies. So the typical two squads with two comes to a £100 layout. Just smile. (Sorry I don't know what that is in USD).

I've been told that a bit of fun can be had by advertising an AC on the online auction site

Ooh, this one looks like it'll be fun to answer, since the marines I use for tournaments uses 6 man las/plas squads extensively, so here's your answers:

1-games of 40k are supposed to be played with roughly 25% of the board covered in terrain. The lack of mobility in these units is going to be a real problem with one or two size three pieces of terrain anywhere near the middle of the board.

I've actually played many games against this scenario. Only a couple of armies can really benefit from this terrain setup (CTM eldar and tyranids come to mind). Of course, the main thing to do when setting up terrain is to make sure that 2 ft by 2 ft square of woods is off in a corner

2-how will they sieze objectives? How will they do when they have to move (recon)?

Your las/plas squads make sure that your opponent's heavy units can't claim objectives, and your land speeders/assault marines/bikers/drop podders/vehicles/mounted troops handle objective taking.

3-edlar starcannon cheese armies will eat those small squads for breakfast

Last tournament game I played was against one of these. I managed to make sure all of my squads were in cover (thanks to the 25% terrain rule you mentioned in #1 above) and we basically slugged it out to a tie. The main thing to remember here is that the las/plas squads can fill multiple roles, from shooting a wraithlord one turn, to double tapping that seer council fleet-of-prancing into your lines the next.

4-What about hords of orcs, traitor guard, nurglings?

The main thing to remember here is that the las/plas squads are extremely cheap, allowing you to take several in an army and still take plenty of other toys. For example, in my current list I run 5 las/plas squads. I also run a 8 man/4 heavy bolter dev squad, 2 AC/HB land speeders, an assault squad with 2 flamers, a librarian with fury/fear, and a term command squad with 2 assault cannons. Needless to say, I can handle hordes very well.

wow the modesty lol

Simply take the Lascannon away from the Marine troop, vet, and Dev squads as an option. Make the Missile Launcher the strongest anti-armor weapon the basic marine troop can have. Save Lascannons for vehicles and that's that.

It will deter marines from getting into long range firefights, which can encompass an entire enemy army, while their assault elements make the move forward. The lascannons will be relicated to Predators and Dreads.

Posted By the cabbage on 07/27/2006 3:05 AM
I am definately not scared of marines, I know the assault cannon is powerful but let the following cheer you up.

I just found out that the AC comes one per sprue in the £25 box of termies. So the typical two squads with two comes to a £100 layout. Just smile. (Sorry I don't know what that is in USD).

I've been told that a bit of fun can be had by advertising an AC on the online auction site

I hate to burst your bubble but some sealed boxes of old termies off eBay (just won another set for $20) and some of the old metal Assault Cannon bits makes for some nice cheap Assault Cannon termies that still look good.

You can bits order the metal land speeder assault cannons. They are real cheap.  With a little bit of dremel/file time and some putty, they end up looking far better than the stock donkey cannon arm. My BT termies are armed with one of each. I wish I had converted both.

Response to an earlier post:

I didn't mean to imply that min/maxed las/plas squads were worthless. They are a mean unit; however, almost every army has something a little broken.

Personally, I don't think the balance of the game has ever been better. Lets look at the "cheese armies over the years"
2nd ed-Space Wolves + Eldar (mostly Eldar)
3rd ed-Biel Tan Eldar, Dark Eldar, rhino rush (BT, SW, Nurgle Chaos), Iron warriors

I can't think of a 4th ed army that dominates like rhino rush or second ed eldar. I would be hard pressed to name one for this edition, maybe Iron Head?

Sure, vanilla marines have gone from semi-pathetic army to a powerful force. A termie command unit with a librarian should be something to be scared of; your opponent paid through the nose for it (in real life and in game)! I'll buy the critisism that marines are a forgiving army to play. Forgiving doesn't mean broken and taking a marine army to a tourney hardly guarantees victory.

well said ninjajuicer

Thanks,

I'm just glad to see vanilla marines doing something. If any marines need fixing, it is the non-codex chapters.

I used to feel guilty playing both DE and BT. That's part of the reason I sold the DE and went with Tau. Fortunately, the recent codex has really toned down the templars: points costs went up (vows and initiates), the always hit on a 3+ no longer applies to monstrous creatures and independant characters, the EC cannot snipe powerfists on squad characters, assault squads no longer "fall forward" 3d6 inches, and librarians are a potent option for codex chapters. My only (very minor) complaint is that the Land Raider Crusader cannot move 12' and fire the hurricane bolters anymore.

I imagine that blood angels and space wolves will get a similar well thought out treatment. Though, BA never seemed as bad as BT or SW...IMHO.  I'm not that familiar with Blood Angels; I could be totally wrong about that. If I had to guess, I could see wolves losing or paying more for some of the extra powerfists and plasma pistols.  Blood claw bikers, Wolf Guard termies, and long fangs might need a small points drop.

One interesting thing about the las/plas combo is that, if taken in a 10 man tac squad, it's horribly flexible. Consider: Lascannon pops tanks from up to 48" away, or a 2+ 3+ 4+ troop from the same distance. Plasma gun toasts heavy infantry up to 24" away. The remaining 8 bolters in the squad, though, provide anti-5+ 6+ save defense. Throw in a few heavy bolters, and Marines can deal with any challange.

Where virtually any other army has to specifically tool up to devistate hordes or heavies, Marines can do either; the former with their small arms, the latter with their las/plas.

Now, my vote for how to balance Space Marines would be to do absolutly nothing for them for the next 4 years, and release new codicies for everybody else.

Somehow, i think 40k would be a better game if a 3+ save wasn't something you faced.....what, 66% of the time at tournies?

yeah marines should have a 2+ save and termies should have 1+. the only way to make a termie die is to shoot it with an ap1 gun, yes not many of those, he he, and the marine would be taken out by las or plasma guns, not stupid pie templates

The easiest way to fix Space Marines is to have a die roll at the beginning of the game before deployment. If the roll is a 2+, the Marines automatically win. If the roll is a 1, then the Space Marines loose. In the case of Marines vs Marines, the two players dice off and the highest roll wins instead.

Its either that, or making all Marines have 6 wounds and ignore instant-kill or lowering the all xenos and traitor weapons to S3, and non-astartes armies have WS2 BS2.

well said keezus

yeah so those whining non SM player who call SM armies beardy,cheasy will actually have a ligitimate excuse to moan.

Certainly, because no SM players think that marines need to be looked at balance-wise

Haha. There's no such thing as an "overpowered list" in GWs vocabulary. Just codecies with "units which are challenging to use". 

Discounting sub-dexes, here is a selection of the aforementioned "fluffy units which are challenging to use"... (Based solely off experience on frequency of facing these units - between 0-5 encounters, 3rd edition to present.)

Daemonhunters (*): Arco-Flagelents, Death Cult Assassin (Though the entire list falls into the "challenging to use category"
Eldar (9): Dire Avengers, Wave Serpents, Wraithguard, Swooping Hawks, Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Fire Prism, Support Batteries, War Walkers
Orks (8): Stickbommas, Shoota Boyz, Flash Gitz, Kommandos, Stormboyz, Lobbaz, Battlewaggon, Dreadnought
Tyranids (5): Warriors, Zoanthropes, Raveners, Lictors, Gargoyles
Imperial Guard (5): Sanctioned Psykers, Tech Priest Engiseer, Conscripts, Ogryn, Mortar Teams
Witchunters (4): Inquisitor Lord, Stormtroopers, Sisters Repentia, Penitent Engine
Tau (4): Pathfinders, Vespid, Skyray, Gun Drone Squadron
Chaos (3): Possessed, Raptors, Flamers/Horrors
Dark Eldar (3): Scourges, Grotesques, Mandrakes
Necrons (3): Flayed Ones, Pariahs, Tomb Spiders
Marines (2): Veterans, Land Speeder Typhoon

So, in conclusion, since Marines have "challenging" units too, so they are clearly balanced against the other lists. Some lists are just more "challenging" to use than others.

actually arco flags are under Witchhunters, so that's 5 units for them

CHAOS possesed should not be in that list, same with the ork battle wagon and none of the Nid should be there1

ninjajuicer> I can't think of a 4th ed army that dominates like rhino rush or second ed eldar. I would be hard pressed to name one for this edition, maybe Iron Head?

?

What? Do you play often? Have you ever faced any of these:

9 Obliterator Iron Warriors and Bang?

9 Landspeeder Tornadoes and 6 dreadnaughts?

Ultramauleens?

3 Pyramid Necrons, the nightbringer and max destroyers?

3 Super Falcons and the sniper army of Eldar doom?

21 Starcannons...

There are plenty out there, and guess what, they're almost all MEq or about to be redone.

How to balance Marines? Return the assault cannon to Heavy 3, and get rid of rending.  Make Drop pods 80 points.  Remove the Marine Doctrines.  Force marines to come in squads of 10 like the old days, no 6 men squads. That'd do it. 

Augustus, I actually agree with a most of those.

You also forgot the 4 Librarian Drop Pod army of doom, but that might fit into the 6 dread list.

And beef, he stated that he's basing it off of units he rarely sees people use in games in his area. In my area the list is a little different, but it's partly because Godzilla's rare here (and as far as chaos goes, there is so much out there that's more efficient than possessed).

what are ultramauleens?? this argument goes round and round, then reapears again a month later. Marines are the most played army out there. its GW main cash cow. if they made marines gak then Gw would lose alot of sales and thats not what they want. Its profit driven not balance driven. If the marines are supposed to be the emporors elite and in game terms they are crap who would bother with them?? not the youngerkids who bring in most of the business. no matter how much old timers pay on Gw products the Kids bring the majority of cash flow into the business. Also alot of older players would not bother to much if they mae marines any crapper. Nearly Every army has had it hayday in 2nd or 3rd edition. its the space marines turn now.

And of course thats why I keep the old armored company around, to hear the wailing and gnashing of young marine punks.

BUAHAHAHAHA

On the other hand is it GW's cash cow because of the rules and support? Make other armies strong, support them fully and their sales will go up as well.

Here's an example of ultramalueens:

1xMaster w/Twin LC, Term Armour Furious Charge
1x4 Term Command Squad w/2 AC, Furious Charge

1xEpistolary w/Term Armour, Fury, Fear
1x4 Term Command Squad w/2 AC, Furious Charge

4x6 SM w/Las, plas

1x6 Assault Marine w/2 Flamers, Meltabombs, Sergeant w/power fist

2x1 Land Speeder w/AC, HB

1x8 Devs w/4 HB

1x6 Devs w/3 ML

I think that's about right, might be off at a point or two.

Beef wrote: This argument goes round and round, then reapears again a month later. Marines are the most played army out there. its GW main cash cow. if they made marines gak then Gw would lose alot of sales and thats not what they want. Its profit driven not balance driven.

Beef: Have you considered that if the other armies were all sub-par compared to Marines that we'd just have lots of Marine vs Marine battles (which has been the trend for the longest time). Secondly, if GW was concerned about profits, making armies that have a hard time wining while fully supporting them with new product lines is hardly good business sense. Some amount of balance is necessary to move product.

As for my list of units which are balls: I hope you are not suggesting that all those multi-wound Tyranid buggers and battlewagons are good choices. The tyraniids suffered from autokill in V3 and now newly in V4. Gargoyles are too many points compared to Hormagaunts - and the low AV battlewagon is a laughable choice at best.

I also hope you are joking about possessed. In all my days as a 40k player, I have NEVER seen anyone use Chaos possessed. Frankly, they are huge amounts of balls considering the points cost. Making fast moving ones makes Raptors look like points effective models, and the choppy ones are about twice the cost of a comparitively priced daemon pack unit.

If those units were good, you might see a tournament army using large quantities of those units. Somehow, I doubt it though.

Back on topic: Honestly, If I were redoing Marines, I would do 3 things. Marines have 2 defining traits. They are good at everything, and they have ATSKNF. My main change would be thus:

Tactical Marine - 20 points
Abilities: ATSKNF, true grit
Weapon: Bolter, CCW (combat knife), frag and krak grenades
Statline: As present

Everything else would be adjusted to suit. You'd have the ultimate all-round warrior.

Also, I'd get rid of the current trait system and base the army type around "strategems" purchase-able by the commander / chaplain or librarian. Examples might be:

Fist of the Emperor: Siege Specialists, Devestators as Elites and Heavy Support, no cover saves alowed.
Might of the ancients: 1+ Tech Marines as HQ, Dreadnoughts as Elites and Heavy Support
Riders on the Winds: Bikes as troops and fast attack, Skilled rider and move through cover for all units. No unmounted units alowed. No drop pods.

etc.

The current "disadvantage" selection is laughable and should probably be scrapped altogether.

I regulary use nurgle posseded with rending claws in tournies. The ulramauleens list is not that good. if people think that is really hard to kill then it just shows the player level of skill or lack of.

As for the traits system its not bad for normal codex type marines as it give players a bit of flexibility to design there own chapter. Not that i bother with traits, i usually play the first founding chpaters, ultramarines, SW, BA.
As for the GW cash cow which are marines GW wont bother invest in the other armies so much as kids will buy anything new that comes out and then get bored when they relise that the new army is crap.

Beef: Schweet. 30 point models that still get chewed by all the normal MEQ killers.  (lascannons, missile launchers, plasma, powerfists, daemon princes, battlecannons, demolishers, etc. etc. etc.)  Where do I sign up! (Not the greatest choice where I game. Still, YMMV).

ymmv?? whats that meen?

Your Mileage May Vary.

There is a difference between tournaments where people don't bring hard armies and a tournament where people do. I know when my friends and I play with really hard armies the non effective units really start to show how poor they are.

most units are effective at soimething or another, it depends on how you use them.

Beef: There's the rub, what is a unit of Nurgle possessed with talons good for? It is an expensive unit, with resilience vs. small arms, limited protection vs. heavy weapons, is slow, and has good HTH ability. S5, T5, 5+I and Talons. 30+ points each.

The whole problem with possessed is that they are slow as crap. If you give them wings, they are fast, but lack punch and staying power in HTH. They also make Raptors look like absolute bargains (which they are clearly not). If you park the nurgle possessed with talons in a rhino (+58 points), they can not assault the turn they disembark. Canny enemies will shoot the bejebus out of them or move away from them.

Use them as an objective holding unit? Frankly, they are not that resilient. A unit of chaos marines with twice their number is resilient. Lets face it, daemonic aura is only a stones throw away from having no save.

Trust me, I've given possessed a long hard look - and honestly, CHOSEN are better uses for those elite slots! They get better HTH options, AND better shooting options.

maybe you are right but i find them usefull and also quite fluffy. its a personnal choice. they can be usefull if assualting out of a landraider with a lord.