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Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 10:49:42


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


Hello dear DakkaDakka people,

Im a long time reader of the Necron tactics forum and a Necron player myself.

Looking at the current meta Necrons are starting to struggle again almost like during the index time.
New codecies (IK) being very strong doesnt help the situation either as one of necrons biggest problem in 8th edition is and was GOOD efficient AT.

Now what id like to discuss here is possible point changes for our units and even new/changed rules.

Post your ideas here even if youre not a cron player and just disagree with changing them at all just keep it polite pls.

We could send ideas we agree on to GWs rules team and link them this thread showing them the troubles crons have.
If the FLG guys and other play testers cant properly test the powerlvl of a codex its up to us the community to do so.

Now to the changes:

1st: give transports the transport keyword or allow them to „deep strike“ 1st round — Its just stupid that we CANNOT put units in transports but only in tomb world, have to wait till round 2 and ONLY deploy 1unit per transport on the board (or use stratagem) PLUS they cant move after deployment.
2nd: drop points for Nscythes and Dscythes, they are too expensive but I dont know by how much to drop them ALSO MASSIVE point drop for the Monolith...this is just obvious GW f...d up and doesnt want to admit it.
3rd: drop Necron Warriors to 10ppm
4th: Necron Warriors only. Give them an ability to MW vehicles on a 6+. Necrons didnt have that much AT in 7th but it was the game that was different. Vehicles didnt have as much wounds and most of them exploded to mass rapid fire from warriors. With 8th edition EVERYONE got the rule to wound on a 6 and the exchange for a -1AP feels like stealing. With this rule Warriors get more attractive to use and with them well maybe see silver tide back.
5th: give DDA 3d3 shots and min3D6dmg

Now this would be the changes that I think would help
feel free to disagree or to change different rules


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 11:31:37


Post by: p5freak


First GW should fix the codex, so many errors in it.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 11:58:25


Post by: Biasn


Well they need point drops on nearly every unit. It would be easier to count the units that are fairly costed.

Which would be... Destroyers and Vaults?

Im also in the camp to raise the Tesla Annihilator to 2dmg


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 12:11:24


Post by: Ice_can


Crons do need help, but handing out mortal wounds is a really poor answer. MW's are way too prevalent, and their introduction has just made it reasonable to say invulnerable saves arn't as valuable. So anyone stuck with old fashioned High strength High Ap anti tank gets even more screwed.

A bonus is fine but please not more motral wound spam in the game. It's so terrible as a mechanic.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 12:21:28


Post by: Biasn


Well Crons have no way for their troops to deal with armor anymore , so the change would help a lot.

Crons also don't have a lot of different gear , so their most basic gun needs to deal with a lot of stuff at least somewhat average wich it just doesnt.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 12:35:48


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


I do agree that almost all units need a point drop but i tried to focus on the stuff i think is the most important.

Also the stuff with the MW. This is a problem with 8th game mechanics, necrons already had this in 7th but now there are no hull points and no critical hits so the easiest way (a bonus as you said @Ice_can) to give necrons this „ability“ back is via MW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Biasn wrote:
[...]

Im also in the camp to raise the Tesla Annihilator to 2dmg


Would be a nice change. I still dont understand the use of all of necrons High Str (6-7) 0AP Tesla (on Scythes and on Vault)

It seems like Necrons lost ALL of their AT abilities. The ONLY real AT we have is HDestroyers and DDAs. I dont count Destroyers as they are good AT because of the stratagem, without it Necrons are an army with a lot of str 5-6 shooting with high AP which is again not thought through since everything with a dangerous name in this edition has an invuln.
The evidence for just plain stupidity by GW is the faction focus Necrons Mephrit Destroyers (with Mephrits additional -1AP destroyers melt through terminator armor —> 2+ Destroyer canon -3AP = 5+ sv, with Mephrit -4 Terminator 5+ invuln)


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 14:55:32


Post by: iGuy91


Agreed....Doom Scythes should get strafing run.

Tesla Destructors should be 2dmg, str7, ap-1 now.

Maybe instead of mortal wounds, Gauss weaponry does double damage, double ap on 6s to wound vs vehicles?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 16:06:59


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed....Doom Scythes should get strafing run.

Tesla Destructors should be 2dmg, str7, ap-1 now.

Maybe instead of mortal wounds, Gauss weaponry does double damage, double ap on 6s to wound vs vehicles?


I mathhammered it (online site) and with double AP double dmg on 6s youre looking at 14 unsaved wounds vs T7 Sv3+

MW on 6+s is 4unsaved wounds plus 5MW

I like the first one more since its more damage but I dont see GW making something like this also the OP PLS NERF cries are going to be MASSIVE


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 16:08:47


Post by: iGuy91


ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed....Doom Scythes should get strafing run.

Tesla Destructors should be 2dmg, str7, ap-1 now.

Maybe instead of mortal wounds, Gauss weaponry does double damage, double ap on 6s to wound vs vehicles?


I mathhammered it (online site) and with double AP double dmg on 6s youre looking at 14 unsaved wounds vs T7 Sv3+

MW on 6+s is 4unsaved wounds plus 5MW

I like the first one more since its more damage but I dont see GW making something like this also the OP PLS NERF cries are going to be MASSIVE


How many shooters? What Range? How Many Points is that vs a Rhino Equivalent?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 16:19:28


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


 iGuy91 wrote:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed....Doom Scythes should get strafing run.

Tesla Destructors should be 2dmg, str7, ap-1 now.

Maybe instead of mortal wounds, Gauss weaponry does double damage, double ap on 6s to wound vs vehicles?


I mathhammered it (online site) and with double AP double dmg on 6s youre looking at 14 unsaved wounds vs T7 Sv3+

MW on 6+s is 4unsaved wounds plus 5MW

I like the first one more since its more damage but I dont see GW making something like this also the OP PLS NERF cries are going to be MASSIVE


How many shooters? What Range? How Many Points is that vs a Rhino Equivalent?



full warrior squad 240points 12“ rapid fire range
dont hnow how much a rhino costs but definitely less


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 19:57:07


Post by: p5freak


ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

It seems like Necrons lost ALL of their AT abilities. The ONLY real AT we have is HDestroyers and DDAs.


Hdestroyers are not a good choice because three are easily wiped out. Necrons havent lost ALL of their AT abilities, there is a lot to choose from, but they have poor rules and/or are to expensive. There is the night scythe, monolith, tomb sentinel, gauss pylon, sentry pylon, triarch stalker. All have S8+ weapons.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 20:06:35


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


 p5freak wrote:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

It seems like Necrons lost ALL of their AT abilities. The ONLY real AT we have is HDestroyers and DDAs.


Hdestroyers are not a good choice because three are easily wiped out. Necrons havent lost ALL of their AT abilities, there is a lot to choose from, but they have poor rules and/or are to expensive. There is the night scythe, monolith, tomb sentinel, gauss pylon, sentry pylon, triarch stalker. All have S8+ weapons.


Thx for listing them up for me i truly did forget about them because theyre bad units to take. Now that i think about them and their rules im shaking my head.
What is the triarch stalker going to do with his 2 shoots hitting on 4s when he moved. Plus theres no way to deny that as they dont habe dynasty keyword. I still dont understand what the GAMEPLAY idea was behind non dynasty units? From a fluff perspective it’s reasonable but gameplay wise?
And I wasn’t referring to FW units as I think they actually did a good job in giving us some good AT (big fan of the Sentinel)


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 20:29:53


Post by: p5freak


ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

It seems like Necrons lost ALL of their AT abilities. The ONLY real AT we have is HDestroyers and DDAs.


Hdestroyers are not a good choice because three are easily wiped out. Necrons havent lost ALL of their AT abilities, there is a lot to choose from, but they have poor rules and/or are to expensive. There is the night scythe, monolith, tomb sentinel, gauss pylon, sentry pylon, triarch stalker. All have S8+ weapons.


Thx for listing them up for me i truly did forget about them because theyre bad units to take. Now that i think about them and their rules im shaking my head.
What is the triarch stalker going to do with his 2 shoots hitting on 4s when he moved. Plus theres no way to deny that as they dont habe dynasty keyword. I still dont understand what the GAMEPLAY idea was behind non dynasty units? From a fluff perspective it’s reasonable but gameplay wise?
And I wasn’t referring to FW units as I think they actually did a good job in giving us some good AT (big fan of the Sentinel)


Well, triarch units have no dynasty. The stalker should have the ignore penalty rule for moving and firing heavy weapons, like destroyers. Not a big fan of the sentinel, 12" gun range is not long enough, enemy can simply charge it and shut down its shooting. And it should have a 5+ inv sv for 180 pts. The D6 randomness of necron guns is also pretty annoying.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 20:39:08


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


I don't think there really needs to be a lot of price adjustments. Make Warriors and Flayed Ones 3+ and Immortals T5 again would be a big start.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/10 20:42:11


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


 p5freak wrote:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

It seems like Necrons lost ALL of their AT abilities. The ONLY real AT we have is HDestroyers and DDAs.


Hdestroyers are not a good choice because three are easily wiped out. Necrons havent lost ALL of their AT abilities, there is a lot to choose from, but they have poor rules and/or are to expensive. There is the night scythe, monolith, tomb sentinel, gauss pylon, sentry pylon, triarch stalker. All have S8+ weapons.


Thx for listing them up for me i truly did forget about them because theyre bad units to take. Now that i think about them and their rules im shaking my head.
What is the triarch stalker going to do with his 2 shoots hitting on 4s when he moved. Plus theres no way to deny that as they dont habe dynasty keyword. I still dont understand what the GAMEPLAY idea was behind non dynasty units? From a fluff perspective it’s reasonable but gameplay wise?
And I wasn’t referring to FW units as I think they actually did a good job in giving us some good AT (big fan of the Sentinel)


Well, triarch units have no dynasty. The stalker should have the ignore penalty rule for moving and firing heavy weapons, like destroyers. Not a big fan of the sentinel, 12" gun range is not long enough, enemy can simply charge it and shut down its shooting. And it should have a 5+ inv sv for 180 pts. The D6 randomness of necron guns is also pretty annoying.


Youre right but i just love the looks of the sentinel, it just has that something special to me haha


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 12:48:33


Post by: Valkyrie


I'd like to see some variations in the C'tan powers, at the moment it's just variations of "units within x" take Mortals on a particular dice roll". Actual ranged attacks such as the 7th Ed powers would be nice.

I wouldn't say Crons are as garbage as some people make them out to be, they're a pretty hardy army to go against when RP is taken into account. Some units could use a reduction although I couldn't comment too specifically on what need what reduction, possibly Crypteks, the Characters would be my first guess.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 12:57:05


Post by: p5freak


RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 13:06:23


Post by: iGuy91


 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.


But-but!! Then they are stepping on the toes of muh death guard!!
/sarcasm

Its true though. I feel as though whoever wrote the dex played against a whole bunch of decurion necrons in 7th, and overcompensated.

I also think its still comical how expensive Flayed Ones are for how bad they are.

Real talk though, would giving Ghost Arks the Transport Keyword, and allowing anyone to hop into them make much of a difference in your opinion?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 13:16:28


Post by: Draco765


Ghost Arks already have the Transport Keyword.

And, yes, other infantry units do need to be able to get in there.

With our 5" on foot speed units like Lychguard need to have something to get them down the field a little more reliable.

Another issue is that it needs a small boost to it's capacity, allowing a character to get in with a minimum sized Warrior Unit.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 14:15:26


Post by: iGuy91


 Draco765 wrote:
Ghost Arks already have the Transport Keyword.

And, yes, other infantry units do need to be able to get in there.

With our 5" on foot speed units like Lychguard need to have something to get them down the field a little more reliable.

Another issue is that it needs a small boost to it's capacity, allowing a character to get in with a minimum sized Warrior Unit.


Bump capacity to 12, let anyone with the infantry keyword catch a ride.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 18:14:44


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


 iGuy91 wrote:
 Draco765 wrote:
Ghost Arks already have the Transport Keyword.

And, yes, other infantry units do need to be able to get in there.

With our 5" on foot speed units like Lychguard need to have something to get them down the field a little more reliable.

Another issue is that it needs a small boost to it's capacity, allowing a character to get in with a minimum sized Warrior Unit.


Bump capacity to 12, let anyone with the infantry keyword catch a ride.


Id also like to transport a cryptek and/or a overlord

id even bump the capacity to 22
why can you just take a min squad warriors in the ark its stupid


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 18:20:27


Post by: iGuy91


What I said includes Crypteks and Overlords. That, or make it able to hold 22 models, but all non-warrior models count for 2?
That'd let it hold a squad of immortals and a character, or 20 warriors and a character, or that 10 man lychguard squad and Anrakyr to buff them...


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 18:31:16


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


There's no room on that model come on.

Make it so Warriors can shoot out the top like Dark Eldar all can, and if you feel like it allow other units to use it as a transport. 8 Immortals with a Lord and Overlord? Cool beans. Want to just keep it cheaper and use 10 Warriors? Go for it.
That alone would fix most of the Ark's problems.

Also, like I said, not too many point adjustments need to be done for most of the infantry. I'd want Flayed Ones and Warriors to get a 3+ save back, and Immortals being T5 would make them tougher.

One of the prime issues with the army though is that we pay for a RP that will likely never come into play. I'd rather it work at the end of each phase. It'll encourage more extermination of a squad but it'll make them better vs armies that use multiple phases.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 18:39:00


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[...]

Also, like I said, not too many point adjustments need to be done for most of the infantry. I'd want Flayed Ones and Warriors to get a 3+ save back, and Immortals being T5 would make them tougher.

One of the prime issues with the army though is that we pay for a RP that will likely never come into play. I'd rather it work at the end of each phase. It'll encourage more extermination of a squad but it'll make them better vs armies that use multiple phases.


Id love to have T5 on immortals back too, even more than 3+ sv on warriors/flayed ones

Isnt RP one if not THE only one „army rule“ that is controlled by the opponent?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/14 18:48:18


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[...]

Also, like I said, not too many point adjustments need to be done for most of the infantry. I'd want Flayed Ones and Warriors to get a 3+ save back, and Immortals being T5 would make them tougher.

One of the prime issues with the army though is that we pay for a RP that will likely never come into play. I'd rather it work at the end of each phase. It'll encourage more extermination of a squad but it'll make them better vs armies that use multiple phases.


Id love to have T5 on immortals back too, even more than 3+ sv on warriors/flayed ones

Isnt RP one if not THE only one „army rule“ that is controlled by the opponent?

Essentially it is, yes. You can argue on Cult infiltration shenanigans and that if you don't play an Imperium army then CSM won't get their little bonus thing.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 01:24:25


Post by: Eonfuzz


Hmm, would people be against - not - reducing the points of the monolith, but instead see a whole slew of new tactical stratagems for it?

Here's my wishlist:
- All Gauss weaponry increase AP and Damage by 1 when targeting vehicles
- Reanimation Protocols can now be done after a unit is wiped out. Units resurrected this way are instead placed in the "Tomb World" for future deployment.
- Tesla Weaponry now instead generates 1 extra hit to all other units within 6" of the target
-- Heavy Tesla now procs on a 5+
- Deathmark rifles now have AP -1
- Flayed ones not reduced in points, but can now deepstrike from the "Tomb World", basically making them a constant threat.
- Szeras and his upgrades can now stack on the same unit

My thoughts are to make Night Scythes, Monoliths and Telsa more useful while also diversifying the decision of Gauss vs Tesla immortals.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 08:19:28


Post by: Biasn


 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hmm, would people be against - not - reducing the points of the monolith, but instead see a whole slew of new tactical stratagems for it?

Here's my wishlist:
- All Gauss weaponry increase AP and Damage by 1 when targeting vehicles
- Reanimation Protocols can now be done after a unit is wiped out. Units resurrected this way are instead placed in the "Tomb World" for future deployment.
- Tesla Weaponry now instead generates 1 extra hit to all other units within 6" of the target
-- Heavy Tesla now procs on a 5+
- Deathmark rifles now have AP -1
- Flayed ones not reduced in points, but can now deepstrike from the "Tomb World", basically making them a constant threat.
- Szeras and his upgrades can now stack on the same unit

My thoughts are to make Night Scythes, Monoliths and Telsa more useful while also diversifying the decision of Gauss vs Tesla immortals.


Thats some cool ideas!
I would like to see the DDA ignore 1 or 2 points of Invuln...it's one of the strongest weapons in the game god damnit


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 12:28:07


Post by: Aza'Gorod


I think that str 7 tesla should do 2mg and for the ghost ark just introduce a rule calls "compressed space" or something.
Necrons are meant to be masters of technology so surely they can squeeze 20 guys in.
They could add a special rule where if it blows up 10 are automatically considered slain and can't be brought back


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 13:01:11


Post by: p5freak


A model is just a model, its not an exact representation of the vehicle. Rhinos and land raiders would be much bigger if they had the same scale as a space marine. GW could say that a ghost ark can carry 20 models.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 15:58:24


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 p5freak wrote:
A model is just a model, its not an exact representation of the vehicle. Rhinos and land raiders would be much bigger if they had the same scale as a space marine. GW could say that a ghost ark can carry 20 models.

You can literally SEE the models being transported in this case.

Being opentopped is more important anyway.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 16:02:48


Post by: Blndmage


If we're talking point changes still, dropping Warriors a point or two would help.

I feel like Flayed Ones can take a drop too, 17 per is too much, 15 maybe.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 16:05:34


Post by: Xenomancers


 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed....Doom Scythes should get strafing run.

Tesla Destructors should be 2dmg, str7, ap-1 now.

Maybe instead of mortal wounds, Gauss weaponry does double damage, double ap on 6s to wound vs vehicles?

Gauss weapons have bonus AP - they don't need more bonuses. What they need is a proper point cost.

Heres my solutions I play against Necrons a lot and I know exactly what they are missing.
Warriors get 3+ save and go down 1 point.
Immortals go down 2 points.
Stratagem that costs 3 points that allows you to use reanimation protcols (unbuffed) on a completely destroyed unit.
A solid drop of 10-15% point cost for for non quantum shielding vehcails.

Not sure about all the infantry but
Lychgaurd need to go down 5-10 points
Not sure about bikes but they seem kind of okay

A few weapons need adjustments to be more powerful - mainly the heatray - needs to be better.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Biasn wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hmm, would people be against - not - reducing the points of the monolith, but instead see a whole slew of new tactical stratagems for it?

Here's my wishlist:
- All Gauss weaponry increase AP and Damage by 1 when targeting vehicles
- Reanimation Protocols can now be done after a unit is wiped out. Units resurrected this way are instead placed in the "Tomb World" for future deployment.
- Tesla Weaponry now instead generates 1 extra hit to all other units within 6" of the target
-- Heavy Tesla now procs on a 5+
- Deathmark rifles now have AP -1
- Flayed ones not reduced in points, but can now deepstrike from the "Tomb World", basically making them a constant threat.
- Szeras and his upgrades can now stack on the same unit

My thoughts are to make Night Scythes, Monoliths and Telsa more useful while also diversifying the decision of Gauss vs Tesla immortals.


Thats some cool ideas!
I would like to see the DDA ignore 1 or 2 points of Invuln...it's one of the strongest weapons in the game god damnit

Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.

Here is a hint - when an opponent can bring back units you've killed at will with no counter other that (kill the 3 spiders first). The game is already lost. There is no point in playing that game. Might as well play narrative play and summon daemons for free - bust out unlimited termigants on a tervigon - or heck - why even pay points for units anymore if they all come back at full life when you kill them.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 17:22:23


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Seriously. Just make RP end of each phase. It would really help in the long run.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 18:50:19


Post by: Blndmage


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously. Just make RP end of each phase. It would really help in the long run.


^ This 100%!

WBB should always be at the end of phase!


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 19:28:35


Post by: JNAProductions


 Blndmage wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously. Just make RP end of each phase. It would really help in the long run.


^ This 100%!

WBB should always be at the end of phase!


So, 20 unbuffed Warriors (240 points) versus 30 heavily buffed Plaguebearers (210 points plus buffers).

Let's assume that the Plaguebearers somehow manage to get the charge off without losing a single body. They then attack the Warriors, somehow getting 30/31 hits and 30/30 wounds. The Warriors fail an average number of saves, leaving them with 15.

There are 20 Warriors at the start of the combat phase.
There are 10 at the end (5 returned).
There are 13.33 at the end of Morale. (3.33 back.)
There are 15.55 at the end of Movement (2.22 back).
There are 17.03 at the end of Psychic (1.48 back).
There are 18.02 at the end of Shooting (.99 back).
There are 18.68 at the end of Charging (.66 back).
Only now can my Plaguebearers fight again, having inflicted, after RP, not quite 1.5 casualties.

210 points of close combat Troops, buffed sufficiently to have an about 50% chance (slightly less, actually) of doing 15 casualties in a phase, should not do that little damage.

For reference, to buff them sufficiently, you need 325 points of buffs, one of which is a Psychic power. (The units are a Prince, a Poxbringer, and a Scrivener.)

If RP is to happen at each phase, it needs to be SERIOUSLY adjusted.

Edit: Oh, and just for fun, here's what happens when the Warriors swing.

Each Warrior has 1 attack, 1/2 hits (Plaguebearers inflict a -1 to be hit in 20+ man squads), 1/4 wounds, 1/6 unsaved, and 1/9 past the FNP.

So that's 5/9 dead turn one, but if they swing first turn two, that's up to 2.63 dead, meaning they take one less casualty this time.

I'm not gonna do the math, but it's, at the very least, an INCREDIBLY CLOSE fight. Which would be fine, if it was 210 points of close combat troops versus 240 points of shooty troops. But it's 535 points, with buffs.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 19:35:25


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 19:40:34


Post by: JNAProductions


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?


So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 19:43:19


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?


So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.

Except that's never been the point of Plaguebearers to be offensive.

RP as is doesn't work. Period. My proposal makes it work as the units are priced.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 19:49:44


Post by: iGuy91


I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 19:51:35


Post by: JNAProductions


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?


So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.

Except that's never been the point of Plaguebearers to be offensive.

RP as is doesn't work. Period. My proposal makes it work as the units are priced.


Oh, I agree that RP right now sucks. But your proposal takes it to overpowered as hell.

And Plaguebearers, I agree, are less offensively potent than, say, Bloodletters. Because they're slower and more durable. But again-535 points worth of units and buffs who only work in CC should beat less than half their points in close combat. It might take a few turns, but it should happen.

Because right now...

Each Bearer attack, hitting on a 3+ and generating an extra attack on a 6, rerolling 1s, wounding on a 2 rerolling (due to all those buffs) do .47 wounds per attack.
Warriors do .11 per attack, but get 91.2% of their models back between each fight.

Turn One
Plagues get turn one, kill 14.57.
Warriors swing back, kill .60.
Warriors get up to 18.72.

Turn Two
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 27.32 Plaguebearers kill 13.31.
Warriors get 13.31 back, for a total of 18.72 again.

Turn Three
Plagues swing, killing 13.31 again.
Warriors swing, killing .60.
Warriors get 13.31 back AGAIN, for a total of 18.72.

Turn Four
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 24.64 Plagues swing, killing 11.58.
Warriors get 11.73 back, leaving them at 18.87.

I'll stop here. Why? Because the Warriors are winning. They're taking basically no losses, and whittling down the RIDICULOUSLY BUFFED Plaguebearers.

If I take this to its conclusion, they will win. In close combat. Against a close combat unit.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.


I'd go with at the END of the movement phase. That way, you can move your Crypteks and whatnot into range of their auras.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 20:00:25


Post by: p5freak


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can literally SEE the models being transported in this case.


So what ? Its just a model, and its not the actual size. Pretty much all vehicles in 40k are way to small.

Xenomancers wrote:
Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.


Not if its a stratagem that costs 3 CP and can be only used once per game.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 20:05:04


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 iGuy91 wrote:
I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.


Yeah, that would make it see more play. Its way too easy to deny it right now, if you're opponent knows what he's doing.

Necrons don't need points adjustments, except in the case of flayed ones and warriors.
What they need are rules adjustments. Some rules have to buffed and other rules need to be tweaked to feel more natural. QS atm is pretty clunky. Nice and unique mechanic, but clunky.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 20:25:49


Post by: Ice_can


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?

When you sat at the end of the phase do you mean you get to roll for shot models at the end of the shooting phase and then they are either back or gone. Combat phase casualties back or gone at rhe end of the combat phase.

Or do you mean rolling for all casualties every phase?

One is stronger but probably inline with the points crons are paying.

The other is creating the next Alitoc Eldar OP BS.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 20:37:55


Post by: p5freak


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Necrons don't need points adjustments, except in the case of flayed ones and warriors.
What they need are rules adjustments. Some rules have to buffed and other rules need to be tweaked to feel more natural. QS atm is pretty clunky. Nice and unique mechanic, but clunky.


Rule adjustments wont happen, only point reductions.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 20:40:35


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?


So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.

Except that's never been the point of Plaguebearers to be offensive.

RP as is doesn't work. Period. My proposal makes it work as the units are priced.


Oh, I agree that RP right now sucks. But your proposal takes it to overpowered as hell.

And Plaguebearers, I agree, are less offensively potent than, say, Bloodletters. Because they're slower and more durable. But again-535 points worth of units and buffs who only work in CC should beat less than half their points in close combat. It might take a few turns, but it should happen.

Because right now...

Each Bearer attack, hitting on a 3+ and generating an extra attack on a 6, rerolling 1s, wounding on a 2 rerolling (due to all those buffs) do .47 wounds per attack.
Warriors do .11 per attack, but get 91.2% of their models back between each fight.

Turn One
Plagues get turn one, kill 14.57.
Warriors swing back, kill .60.
Warriors get up to 18.72.

Turn Two
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 27.32 Plaguebearers kill 13.31.
Warriors get 13.31 back, for a total of 18.72 again.

Turn Three
Plagues swing, killing 13.31 again.
Warriors swing, killing .60.
Warriors get 13.31 back AGAIN, for a total of 18.72.

Turn Four
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 24.64 Plagues swing, killing 11.58.
Warriors get 11.73 back, leaving them at 18.87.

I'll stop here. Why? Because the Warriors are winning. They're taking basically no losses, and whittling down the RIDICULOUSLY BUFFED Plaguebearers.

If I take this to its conclusion, they will win. In close combat. Against a close combat unit.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.


I'd go with at the END of the movement phase. That way, you can move your Crypteks and whatnot into range of their auras.

So what you're saying is that the designated tarpit unit of the Daemon codex isn't killing things fast? Shocker.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 21:02:39


Post by: Bharring


No.

He's saying the designated tarpit unit of the Daemon codex is doing 0 damage to the Warriors. Even when buffed by a lot more points.

Lets rerun that with Spears. That's about 6 spears.
Lets say Spears charged every turn, just to simplify the math.
Lets say Warriors miss every attack, just to simplify the math.
Back of the napkin math shows that it takes 6 Spears absurdly long to wipe out 20 Warriors.

Spears can, in theory, kill 12 in CC, with another 8 dying in morale. It's *technically* possible. But at a 4/9 chance to kill per attack, that's 6e-5 right there. Then you need a 6 on LD - bringing us to 1 chance in every 10,000 fight phases.

Why am I concerned with "wiping it in one round"? Because each model has a 90% chance of standing back up. Lets do the averages per turn:

Each combat phase, if Spears charge, Spears will average 5.33 kills.
Each turn, 90% of the dead stand up.

On any turn in which one or more Necrons are dead going into the combat phase, Necrons are coming back, on average, faster than they're being killed.

So one of the hardest hitting chargers getting their "i charged" bonus every turn, and never taking any casualties, will only beat your proposed Necron warriors in CC once every, roughly, 700 games.

That's not a tarpit. That's certainly not winning.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 22:32:45


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


And what if you shot the unit of warriors first? Sure, some warriors will get back up, but it won't be all of them. Its still only a 33% chance of getting a warrior back.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 22:46:21


Post by: Eonfuzz


 Xenomancers wrote:

Biasn wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hmm, would people be against - not - reducing the points of the monolith, but instead see a whole slew of new tactical stratagems for it?

Here's my wishlist:
- All Gauss weaponry increase AP and Damage by 1 when targeting vehicles
- Reanimation Protocols can now be done after a unit is wiped out. Units resurrected this way are instead placed in the "Tomb World" for future deployment.
- Tesla Weaponry now instead generates 1 extra hit to all other units within 6" of the target
-- Heavy Tesla now procs on a 5+
- Deathmark rifles now have AP -1
- Flayed ones not reduced in points, but can now deepstrike from the "Tomb World", basically making them a constant threat.
- Szeras and his upgrades can now stack on the same unit

My thoughts are to make Night Scythes, Monoliths and Telsa more useful while also diversifying the decision of Gauss vs Tesla immortals.


Thats some cool ideas!
I would like to see the DDA ignore 1 or 2 points of Invuln...it's one of the strongest weapons in the game god damnit

Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.

Here is a hint - when an opponent can bring back units you've killed at will with no counter other that (kill the 3 spiders first). The game is already lost. There is no point in playing that game. Might as well play narrative play and summon daemons for free - bust out unlimited termigants on a tervigon - or heck - why even pay points for units anymore if they all come back at full life when you kill them.


I should've probably mentioned it, but the way "Tomb World" deployment works right now is you need either a Monolith or a Doom Scythe to 'transport' units down.
So the counter play is to kill them, not to mention all units that would be spewing forth from those portals will be weakened, near MSU squads (Unless they are held back for later...)


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 22:47:10


Post by: JNAProductions


What if the Warriors hit or shoot as well?

No, RP every phase is insane, if that’s the only change.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 22:48:01


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 JNAProductions wrote:
What if the Warriors hit or shoot as well?

No, RP every phase is insane, if that’s the only change.

Then congrats, you were shot by AP-1 Bolters?
Gimme a break.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 22:53:33


Post by: Bharring


Actually a 5/9 chance - 33% at the end of Shooting, 33% at the end of Assualt.

At any rate:
Shooting:
6 Spears:
6x1x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 8/3 LL wounds
6x4x(2/3)[(1/6)(1) + (1/3)(1/2)] = 16/3 Shuriken wounds
8 die from shooting
1/3 stand up at end of shooting, 1/3 at the end of assault - only 3.6 stay dead
In CC:
6x2x(2/3)(2/3) = 16/3 wounds - 5.33 more die.
Roughly 9 are dead. 3 of those stand up.
There are now 14 Warriors alive.
Next phase - movement - 16 warriors are now alive
Next phase - psykic - 17.44 warriors are now alive
Next phase - shooting - 18.33 warriors are now alive
Next phase - Assault - 18.91
And now we fight again! Except without shooting first. So spears are much worse off. *AND* they didn't charge:
6x(1/3)(2/3) = 4/3 killed
And after RP, at the end of CC, we're back to 18.45 Warriors alive, out of the original 20.

That's without Overwatch. Without Necron Warriors fighting back at all.

That's crazy..


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 22:54:34


Post by: JNAProductions


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
What if the Warriors hit or shoot as well?

No, RP every phase is insane, if that’s the only change.

Then congrats, you were shot by AP-1 Bolters?
Gimme a break.


Shining Spears, charging every round, take a ridiculously long time to kill unbuffed Warriors.

That is assuming the Warriors never hit them. Ever.

If they can fight back, the Spears lose.

In addition, what about the Plaguebearers? They have an ability to reroll wounds. That’s a direct, offensive, non-tarpit ability. In addition, they are CC only. As opposed to Warriors, who are better at shooting than CC.

Yet, with barely any more points, almost totally buffed Plaguebearers fail to kill the Warriors. Not just in a reasonable amount of time-but fail to kill them at all. Add a cryptek or overlord and it gets worse.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/15 22:55:18


Post by: Bharring


Oh noes! Not AP-1 Bolters! They does nothings!

Shooting Shining Spears - not their favorite target:
20x2x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2) = that 20-man Necron Warrior blob does 20/3 wounds to Shining Spears in one shooting phase. Kills more than 3 Spears - over half their cost - of a unit that can't kill Necron Warriors even if they *don't* fight back.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 00:16:14


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Bharring wrote:
Actually a 5/9 chance - 33% at the end of Shooting, 33% at the end of Assualt.

At any rate:
Shooting:
6 Spears:
6x1x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 8/3 LL wounds
6x4x(2/3)[(1/6)(1) + (1/3)(1/2)] = 16/3 Shuriken wounds
8 die from shooting
1/3 stand up at end of shooting, 1/3 at the end of assault - only 3.6 stay dead
In CC:
6x2x(2/3)(2/3) = 16/3 wounds - 5.33 more die.
Roughly 9 are dead. 3 of those stand up.
There are now 14 Warriors alive.
Next phase - movement - 16 warriors are now alive
Next phase - psykic - 17.44 warriors are now alive
Next phase - shooting - 18.33 warriors are now alive
Next phase - Assault - 18.91
And now we fight again! Except without shooting first. So spears are much worse off. *AND* they didn't charge:
6x(1/3)(2/3) = 4/3 killed
And after RP, at the end of CC, we're back to 18.45 Warriors alive, out of the original 20.

That's without Overwatch. Without Necron Warriors fighting back at all.

That's crazy..

Which means you shoot the 1.55 left over with something else, and now you don't have to worry after your charge! Crazy stuff, huh?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 06:21:34


Post by: Blndmage


What if RP was changed to a base 6+, rather than 5+, but is made at the beginning of each players turn, and at the end of a phase where models are lost?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 13:45:03


Post by: Bharring


Slayer - you can't shoot the 1.55 at that point - as they're dead. It's the living 18.45 Warriors that you're fighting.

But then, each of those 1.55 Warriors are 90% likely to be up and moving after another full battle round.

How is it OK to have ~18 of your 20 Warriors still in the game after 7 turns of being attacked by one of the harder-hitting units in the game?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 14:11:17


Post by: Reanimation_Protocol


RP is fine as it is, I just dislike the massive cost per model for something that 99% of opponents have now figured out is easily bypassed by concentrated fire.

I know DG have stolen our FNP-a-like reanimate .. so I'm not going to be bitter and demand we get it back...

a stratagem to roll RP for a destroyed squad for 2CP would be pretty awesome (same as the character one)

Gauss should have the same rule as scarab swarms either always wound vehicles on 5 ... or +1 to wound rolls vs. vehicles. or even 2D vs vehicles.

heavy Tesla (Annhi barges, and croissants) should be S8 and 2 damage 0AP ... but it's never gonna happen ... anyoneone seen a single 'Codex' with revised weapon stats in errata since they started dropping ? nope.





Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 14:38:52


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Get it back? The FNP like never belonged to Necrons to begin with.
Necrons copied FNP from the Death Guard in 7th, not the other way around.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 14:49:40


Post by: Bharring


Which was a toned down version of what they had before that - a 5+ to stand back up at the end of the phase in which they died - fail that, and the model is out of the game.

FnP was an upgrade to that, in the vast majority of cases. New-RP seems to be an upgrade on even that - but not as much of an upgrade as other factions tended to get in the version transition.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 16:12:44


Post by: Biasn


Lets face it GW will never price necrons half decently cause they always think that their playerbase is to dumb to focus fire.

7th edition LOS rules (you can only damage models you can see) would at least help a bit.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 16:17:39


Post by: Blndmage


N the plus side, we don't have to worry about Phase Out anymore!


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 16:29:09


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Bharring wrote:
Slayer - you can't shoot the 1.55 at that point - as they're dead. It's the living 18.45 Warriors that you're fighting.

But then, each of those 1.55 Warriors are 90% likely to be up and moving after another full battle round.

How is it OK to have ~18 of your 20 Warriors still in the game after 7 turns of being attacked by one of the harder-hitting units in the game?

Because it actually...wow...makes Warriors good at surviving.

They're not tough. They're a 12 point T4 4+ model. You can already focus fire and charge squads, now you're just punished moreso for not doing it.

Suggest a fix then for RP. If you already think it's functional there's not much hope for you.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 16:33:59


Post by: JNAProductions


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Slayer - you can't shoot the 1.55 at that point - as they're dead. It's the living 18.45 Warriors that you're fighting.

But then, each of those 1.55 Warriors are 90% likely to be up and moving after another full battle round.

How is it OK to have ~18 of your 20 Warriors still in the game after 7 turns of being attacked by one of the harder-hitting units in the game?

Because it actually...wow...makes Warriors good at surviving.

They're not tough. They're a 12 point T4 4+ model. You can already focus fire and charge squads, now you're just punished moreso for not doing it.

Suggest a fix then for RP. If you already think it's functional there's not much hope for you.


Well, to start, make it happen at the end of each movement phase. This allows you to double your chances, as well as move Crypteks and Ghost Arks into range of injured squads before you roll for them.

Add a 2 CP strat to immediately roll RP for a squad that gets wiped, treating them as being in range of whoever they were in range of where the last man died.

That's probably still not quite enough, but it's something that won't result in Necrons being ridiculously OP.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 16:34:21


Post by: Bharring


If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 16:36:24


Post by: JNAProductions


Reminder: That 90% is from your basic 5+.

If you have both a Cryptek and a reroll, that jumps to greater than 90% after two phases.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 17:12:41


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

And when the one guy dies you get nothing.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 17:17:27


Post by: BoomWolf


Heck just a cryptek +1 would mean 75% of the guys you shot will be back by the time your choppy guys get to swing.

I've seen plenty of marine "balance ideas" who were insane, but this tops them all by far.

Necron ain't that weak. FORCING focus fire is an advantage even if you never get to roll a single RP due to it making moral even less of a concern in an edition where half killing squads and letting moral take its toll is often best. It forces not only to kill them, but more often than not overkill by far because you can't trust "enough" with how bad it is if even one survive, especially if there is a arc nearby, cryptek, etc. Let alone multiple factors.

T4 with 4+ is a scout marine. Who costs 11. Scouts ain't bad.
Not game winning on thier own, but not bad.
Necron warriors cost 1 point more, and lose better deployment, but in return got a better gun (and yes, ap1 bolters MATTER when you got numbers) and if you failed to kill them to the last for any reason, you are potentiality screwed.

Is not godly, but it's plenty for basic infantry.


Ffs I'm sick of people trying to "fix" thier faction by making it even better than the top things out there that everyone already agrees needs to be tuned down.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 17:17:56


Post by: JNAProductions


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

And when the one guy dies you get nothing.


So I'm sure you think Tide of Traitors is totally balanced, right? And always has been, even before the nerf?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 17:22:14


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

And when the one guy dies you get nothing.


So I'm sure you think Tide of Traitors is totally balanced, right? And always has been, even before the nerf?

Tide Of Traitors WAS fine actually. Heaven forbid Cultists be good for anything right?

If you had problems with Tide Of Traitors, that says a lot about your army to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Heck just a cryptek +1 would mean 75% of the guys you shot will be back by the time your choppy guys get to swing.

I've seen plenty of marine "balance ideas" who were insane, but this tops them all by far.

Necron ain't that weak. FORCING focus fire is an advantage even if you never get to roll a single RP due to it making moral even less of a concern in an edition where half killing squads and letting moral take its toll is often best. It forces not only to kill them, but more often than not overkill by far because you can't trust "enough" with how bad it is if even one survive, especially if there is a arc nearby, cryptek, etc. Let alone multiple factors.

T4 with 4+ is a scout marine. Who costs 11. Scouts ain't bad.
Not game winning on thier own, but not bad.
Necron warriors cost 1 point more, and lose better deployment, but in return got a better gun (and yes, ap1 bolters MATTER when you got numbers) and if you failed to kill them to the last for any reason, you are potentiality screwed.

Is not godly, but it's plenty for basic infantry.


Ffs I'm sick of people trying to "fix" thier faction by making it even better than the top things out there that everyone already agrees needs to be tuned down.

LOL at the morale statement, because it matters with a LD10 army.

Also you miss the point of Scouts because, if they didn't HAVE better deployment options, they'd be useless. So why would I pay an extra point for AP-1 on the Bolter and RP, which I'll likely not get?

It's as though NONE of you have played Necrons at all. Remember Reece saying they were a killer Index army?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 17:37:19


Post by: JNAProductions


Well, at least you're not being a hypocrite.

Let me put it this way-I kill 16/20 Warriors in the shooting phase. They are by a Cryptek, but I figure I can kill the last four in close combat.

End of shooting-they get 8 back.
End of charging-they get 4 back.

I now have to deal with, instead of four Warriors, 16 of them.

It turns from "Kill a whole squad a turn, or your efforts were partially wasted" to "Kill a whole squad a phase, or your efforts are basically entirely wasted".

And again-Shining Spears, point for point, fail to kill Warriors.
Plaguebearers, point for point and then with 300+ points of buffs, fail to kill Warriors.

Want us to do the math on other units?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 17:42:25


Post by: BoomWolf


My most common opponent is a necron player actually.
And he favors warrior blobs.

They are a bitch to deal with if you are not properly prepared to take out the whole cryptek buffed, cronometron protected, ark supported ride of monochrome warriors.

And with IK running rampant, most people bring heavy AT to events, the same type that isn't good at dealing with the monochrome tide, or the arks (God I hate quantum shields)

Necrons are not top tier, but hardly the scrubs you think they are. They just struggle to compete with the insanity that is IG powered Knights and other such nonsense, and EVERYONE dose, because these are the widely accepted OVERPOWERED things.

Stop trying to match (nay, one up) the known overpowered issues and look at the normal things for comparison. Looking at the normals, necrons are pretty awesome.


(and yes, at LD10 moral STILL matters when you got squads of 20, because had you not have RP, killing 15 of two squads meant erasing both, with it its a risk they are both getting mostly back.)


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 17:48:25


Post by: Bharring


"LOL at the morale statement, because it matters with a LD10 army."
I would think Necrons would be the one army you'd count on LD to finish off. Because killing 15 of them is 25% easier than killing 20 of them.

"If you had problems with Tide Of Traitors, that says a lot about your army to be honest."
Well, if people from every book in the game had problems with it, whatever it says about his army it would then say about every army? So, what's your point?

As for Shining Spears (and others), it's not just 'fails to kill', it's 'fails to do damage faster than they revive, even in optimal situations'. That's a much bigger difference.

Should a Necron Warrior blob that has 1 guy remaining come back at nearly full strength with high reliability in a single round? Why? These aren't some amorphos organic compound, that regrows until you burn it out. It's a collection of unstoppable robots that repair themselves individually. The focus should be on models being hard to kill, not a breakpoint of "do no damage until you onephase the squad".


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 18:07:29


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


To ease up the discussion about RP I too think RP after EVERY Phase is too much but I like the idea with it being at the end of movement so you can move your buffs into position.
I dont have my codex here at hand but I think Crypteks RP Buff is 3“? I would bump it to 6“ to support the silver tide playstyle
Also a stratagem to roll for wiped units would be very helpful.
all of this plus 3+ on the warriors (-1point cost) and T5 on Immortals and I would be ok with this.

NO still one thing
change the text passage 1“ from the last standing model to within 3“ or something similar. Right now its a paradox, RP is the best with one model left and (for 20warrior squad) 19RP to go but you could NEVER put them within 1“ of the last remaining model.
Also your enemy can just surround them in CC making it actually 2 ways to deny RP —> wipe and keep em close

EDIT: This discussion got quite heated so im asking all of you to keep it a bit more polite please, some answers „sounded“ a bit aggressive


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/16 19:37:31


Post by: Blndmage


The Monolith used to cost 285 points.
Bring it back to that cost, and we're golden.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/17 14:54:23


Post by: iGuy91


 Blndmage wrote:
The Monolith used to cost 285 points.
Bring it back to that cost, and we're golden.


Now we're talking. I'd be all about this. Thats nearly a 100 point drop, and by god it needs it.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/19 08:57:04


Post by: Not Online!!!


What speaks against a flat RP as it was on the units itself?
Basically re-add a flat 4+ / 5+ for each loss at the end of a players turn, if the unit is not wiped.
I am fairly certain it was that way before and decent enough?



Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/20 16:52:55


Post by: Trollbert


Maybe GW could combine the FnP and the resurrection on RP?

Make RP a 5+++ FnP and ressurection on 6+ or the other way around, maybe the player may even determine which variant he wants to use (armywide) and don't make Necrons too cheap in exchange.


Apart from maybe Death Guard, there is no army that is supposed to have tough units and also has that in the rules.
(I mean 'losing less points per enemy turn' toughness, not IG 'my units are so cheap I can field more wounds than my opponent can kill' toughness).
Necrons should be a top candidate for a tough army.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/20 17:24:55


Post by: Blndmage


Trollbert wrote:
Maybe GW could combine the FnP and the resurrection on RP?

Make RP a 5+++ FnP and ressurection on 6+ or the other way around, maybe the player may even determine which variant he wants to use (armywide) and don't make Necrons too cheap in exchange.


Apart from maybe Death Guard, there is no army that is supposed to have tough units and also has that in the rules.
(I mean 'losing less points per enemy turn' toughness, not IG 'my units are so cheap I can field more wounds than my opponent can kill' toughness).
Necrons should be a top candidate for a tough army.


I don't think FNP at all captures the effectbtheyre going for.
It's not that you can't drop a Necron because they're thought, it's that once you do, there's a very good chance they'll get back up after you've moved on.
Also, of an army who's whole thing is coming back, I'm getting really pissed by how easy other factions can revive things. Imperials can bring back so many different HQs, in many cases for a negligible cost, where as we need a 2CP strat and 4+ roll, or a relic, that still requires a 4+ roll..


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/20 17:29:07


Post by: Xenomancers


 p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can literally SEE the models being transported in this case.


So what ? Its just a model, and its not the actual size. Pretty much all vehicles in 40k are way to small.

Xenomancers wrote:
Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.


Not if its a stratagem that costs 3 CP and can be only used once per game.

It doesn't even need to be once per game. I suggested this in my completely reasonable fixes at the top of page 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
If you think 90% of a squad standing back up in one round just because one guy survived is balanced, I don't know how productive that would be.

Clearly, they need more. But this is insane.

Coming back to life (at full life) after killing something is one of the most broken concepts in the game. It should be hard to achieve. It's already one of the most powerful abilities in the game.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/20 20:52:38


Post by: p5freak


 Xenomancers wrote:

Coming back to life (at full life) after killing something is one of the most broken concepts in the game. It should be hard to achieve. It's already one of the most powerful abilities in the game.


It cant be one of the most powerful abilities in the game if its easily denied.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 00:49:07


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 p5freak wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Coming back to life (at full life) after killing something is one of the most broken concepts in the game. It should be hard to achieve. It's already one of the most powerful abilities in the game.


It cant be one of the most powerful abilities in the game if its easily denied.

Bingo we have a winner!


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 13:48:35


Post by: Bharring


You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 14:56:48


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Bharring wrote:
You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?

I don't think the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies, and Alaitoc traits are overpowered. If anything, the main people complaining are people whining their gunline has a less easy time killing things. I'm fine with that.

Now should -1 to hit stack beyond -2? That can be up for debate.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 15:22:52


Post by: iGuy91


I'd disagree. I'd suggest they are OP, but only slightly so because to hit modifiers can stack, which isn't entirely their fault.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 16:17:42


Post by: Bharring


Slayer,
Is it materially different to say:

"You can turn off Fieldcraft stacking on a native -1 to a -2 by moving within 12 inches"? Isn't that a subset of turning off Fieldcraft by moving within 12"?

Regardless, isn't that a ability that is easily denied, yet still very impactful?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 16:53:01


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Bharring wrote:
Slayer,
Is it materially different to say:

"You can turn off Fieldcraft stacking on a native -1 to a -2 by moving within 12 inches"? Isn't that a subset of turning off Fieldcraft by moving within 12"?

Regardless, isn't that a ability that is easily denied, yet still very impactful?

Not everyone has that -2 to hit, and honestly I'm fine with anything below -3 to hit, which is when modifiers become pretty silly in a D6 system.

And yeah it IS easily denied. Just like RP. The difference here is you can deny RP in the Psychic, Shooting, and Assault Phases. Fieldcraft, Shadowmasters, Hidden In Plain Sight, and Shroud Protocols can really only be denied in the movement phase (assuming they aren't really closely deployed).

Clearly one of those weaknesses is worse than the other, yes?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 16:56:09


Post by: Blndmage


What if you can do RP at the beginning of each players turn, and at the end of a phase in wihich the unit takes a wound?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 18:09:58


Post by: Bharring


"Fieldcraft, Shadowmasters, Hidden In Plain Sight, and Shroud Protocols can really only be denied in the movement phase (assuming they aren't really closely deployed)"

I dunno. I've seen it countered in the Psykic, Shooting, and Charge phases.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 18:34:48


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


I did forget the Psychic phase my bad.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 18:37:35


Post by: torblind


Making RP less dependent on having at least one model left seems like something that could improve things


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 19:01:01


Post by: iGuy91


torblind wrote:
Making RP less dependent on having at least one model left seems like something that could improve things


I think we agree on that front, but what form does that take?

What if maybe, RP rolls are made right before morale? That way, if the squad isn't wiped out, we have a chance to recoup dudes before determining how many "died" that phase.

So, I have a 20 man squad of warriors near a cryptek. 10 die this phase. I roll RP, 5 get back up. Now I roll morale, having lost 5 dudes, and maybe a lose a few more, but I don't lose the whole squad.

Thoughts on that?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 19:55:07


Post by: BoomWolf


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Slayer,
Is it materially different to say:

"You can turn off Fieldcraft stacking on a native -1 to a -2 by moving within 12 inches"? Isn't that a subset of turning off Fieldcraft by moving within 12"?

Regardless, isn't that a ability that is easily denied, yet still very impactful?

Not everyone has that -2 to hit, and honestly I'm fine with anything below -3 to hit, which is when modifiers become pretty silly in a D6 system.

And yeah it IS easily denied. Just like RP. The difference here is you can deny RP in the Psychic, Shooting, and Assault Phases. Fieldcraft, Shadowmasters, Hidden In Plain Sight, and Shroud Protocols can really only be denied in the movement phase (assuming they aren't really closely deployed).

Clearly one of those weaknesses is worse than the other, yes?


Eeer, what?
Psychic and assault straight up don't care about them. They can't be "countered" in these phases, technically, as they don't work to begin with.

Is only defense against shooting that is countered by movement. And considering how many people complain that "assault is dead and only shooting matters" I find it amusing the most moaned about abilities are the ones who weaken shooting and had zero effect on assault.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/21 21:04:38


Post by: torblind


 iGuy91 wrote:
torblind wrote:
Making RP less dependent on having at least one model left seems like something that could improve things


I think we agree on that front, but what form does that take?

What if maybe, RP rolls are made right before morale? That way, if the squad isn't wiped out, we have a chance to recoup dudes before determining how many "died" that phase.

So, I have a 20 man squad of warriors near a cryptek. 10 die this phase. I roll RP, 5 get back up. Now I roll morale, having lost 5 dudes, and maybe a lose a few more, but I don't lose the whole squad.

Thoughts on that?


I keep coming back to somehow allowing RP even if a unit is wiped. Models dying this turn could have an end of turn RP on 6+ for example, and then possibly normal 5+ start of your next imediate turn.

Then suddenly your enemy wouldn't want to wipe a large unit in one go. If you wipe lets say 20 warriors as a result of enemies shooting, psychic and fight phase, then you would have an imediate 6+ end-of-turn RP for 20 models lost that round (getting you back 3), and then 5+ for the remaining 17, getting you back another 6.

Much better then to stop when its withered down to perhaps 2-3, even letting me pay 2CP to pass morale. Then next time, when they are back up to only 7-8, he could wipe them all, perhaps without me rolling any end-of-turn 6s for those that died that turn.

Perhaps allow this only once per game, but then you have to keep track which is a burden.

Warriors could even remain priced the same way as their RP is now way more potent. RP units would be a pain to wipe out, as Necron should be.

I doubt this will be the way, but somehow some way take the edge off the situation where you are left with one model left or none. As the outcome of that last meager wound is so catastrophic or euphoric, depending on point of view.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or an emergency end-of-phase RP roll for 2CP, also allowed for units wiped that phase


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/24 20:33:09


Post by: Darsath


As far as changes I think the Necron codex absolutely needs:

-Allow a CHARACTER with the INFANTRY keyword to "disembark" from a Night Scythe or Monolith in addition to the normal unit. This would allow for you to drop off, say, a unit of Immortals or Lychguard with an Overlord or Cryptek. I would also make it a bit more clear that the unit is not allowed to move in the movement phase after "disembarking" in such a way. I've seen quite a few players who treat it like any other transport and forget it doesn't have the TRANSPORT keyword.

-Make some serious changes with the Annihilation Barge. It's currently entertainingly overpriced for both its firepower and its survivability. Either increase the number of shots it makes from its Twin Tesla Annihilator to 12 (from 8), or reduce its point cost. It's currently not even close to effective as an anti-infantry weapon. I'm fine with it being bad against armour. But it should be excellent against hordes or low-armour high-volume infantry. There is also merit to making Tesla work on an unmodified roll of a 6 to hit, which removes the bonus from Overlords buffing Immortals, and allows for Tesla to still be effective against the -1 to hit penalties that are common in high-volume low-armour infantry lists.

-Stratagems for Reanimation Protocols related to the Resurrection Orb. This might be to allow a unit to roll RP out of action, such as after a shooting attack by spending command points and the one use of the Resurrection Orb. It would allow the problem of RP being easy to mitigate being solved by use of CPs and a currently unused addition to the HQs.

-Warriors need to do more. They need to have more general damage, or they should be able to survive more damage.If not, then at the least reduce their points cost to 11. Immortals are going to be more of a go-to unit over Warriors even if they introduce a new Guass rule or anything else. They just get more done.

These are points I'm pretty heavily in favour of, and convinced are necessary changes to the current rendition of the codex without being completely overkill. As far as other changes I'm not sold on that I've been thinking about:

-Necrons should have some sort of unit with a 2+ save.

-Monolith needs a serious points cost reduction. Don't know how the change above would increase the effectiveness of Monoliths, but I'm pretty headstrong in my thoughts that it's pretty heavily overcosted.

-Flayed Ones should have their +1 attack returned from the index. I don't run them often, but that's because they've simply never been an enticing choice.

-Praetorians need some sort of buffs. Not sure what exactly though, so I'm listing here. Although their rods should probably be able to be shot as a pistol in combat, but I'm not so sure about that since there is the alternative loadout with the blade and pistol. Don't wanna tread on the toes of that loadout option.

-Destroyers have a greater damage potential against a heavy target such as a tank or monster than the Heavy Destroyers. Seems weird to me. Just an observation there though.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/24 21:42:36


Post by: torblind


Against T7-T8 /3+ Heavy destroyers are still better


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/24 21:58:19


Post by: Darsath


torblind wrote:
Against T7-T8 /3+ Heavy destroyers are still better


They're not necessarily better against targets with Invulns or lower sv or toughness, Such as Knights, Dark Eldar, Wraithknights etc. Though that's not as relevant as the point as I'm trying to make. Destroyers each have the potential to do 9 damage to a single model, while Heavy Destroyers only have the potential to do 6. Not that it's necessarily a problem, but it's a weird disconnect for me.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/24 22:04:46


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Oh wow, you're right. In terms of damage a gauss cannon is actually better. Maybe heavy gauss should be 2 shots or something. Or maybe flat damage instead of variable, as then you will always deal a certain amount of damage instead of rolling for it. It has to be at least 3 though.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/24 23:28:48


Post by: Avatar 720


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh wow, you're right. In terms of damage a gauss cannon is actually better. Maybe heavy gauss should be 2 shots or something. Or maybe flat damage instead of variable, as then you will always deal a certain amount of damage instead of rolling for it. It has to be at least 3 though.


It's probably better to drop the regular Gauss Cannon to 2 shots. It's only carried by Destroyers and underslung by the two Arks, AFAIK, so wouldn't affect many units--and as overpriced as the Arks are, I'd never consider a Gauss Cannon over saving 7pts and going with a Tesla Cannon on them instead. Probably give the GC a small price decrease, too, but Heavy 2 would still be pretty good.

If you raise the efficiency of the Heavy Gauss, I'd say you're looking at adding at least another 15-25pts to their cost, considering they'll effectively be twin lascannons with 12" less range but -4 instead of -3. The weapon itself is already costed reasonably well; maybe a point too expensive considering the cut range and the fact they're only ever used in groups of 3 at most so it's not like you're able to stack them particularly easily, but not really enough to worth mentioning. Heavy Destroyers already suffer from being too few in number to really survive much punishment, and increasing their cost further just compounds the issue and makes them even more glass cannon-y. An increase to 28-30ppw but a change to 2D3 damage might be alright; you're paying 3-5pts more than an SM lascannon, and keep the shorter range and extra AP, but also get at least 2 damage out of it, and an average of 4.

It might also make taking a Triarch Stalker with a twin HGC worth a bit more of a damn if it could deal 4-12 damage with an average of 8 instead of the 2-12 with an average of 6. The Stalker would still need one hell of a price drop, but in the meantime it becomes a little less of an unreasonably expensive markerlight.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/25 14:52:49


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


But I like having gauss cannons with 3 shots. It reminds me of third ed necrons. Reducing them to 1 damage might be a good idea, but then you'd have to give other weapons multiple damage, because at the moment gauss cannons are our only common source of multiple damage. Common as in "more than 1 shot at a time or is not only found on extremely expensive models"

I'd actually like to see more particle weapons available. They tend to have multiple damage and high strength at the cost of pathetic AP, so seeing particle shredders on more units than the triarch stalker might be interesting.
Hell, if anything the annihilation barge should have the option to take either twin shredder, twin destructor or twin heavy gauss. It makes no sense that a weapons platform would be limited to a single primary weapon configuration.
The twin destructor should have more shots. 8 shots isn't enough, not at that AP.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/25 15:36:38


Post by: Avatar 720


D2 Damage might be a fair compromise; still got a decent average, and can put a few dents in multi-wound models with less of an ability to drown anything shy of a knight in damage dice.

That said, the point that Destroyers are better at dealing damage than Heavy Destroyers might not be helped by the fact that you can only get 3 HDs in a single unit at a time, and it's not like paying 300pts for 6 Destroyers is exactly cheap. Sure, they can take out some things more reliably than HDs, but when I'm paying 300pts, I'd kinda expect them to outperform a unit that costs half as much and has half as many models, even if they are a little over-efficient.

Tweaking Destroyer performance at the same time as boosting that of Heavy Destroyers might be the way forward; just altering the Destroyers leaves an issue where Heavy Destroyers are still a bit sub-par. Boosting their unit size maximum might help, or a minor alteration to the HGC that doesn't also massively boost their cost--and make DDAs even more of an auto-take than they already are--could work, but IMO they do need a bit of extra *something*.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/28 18:44:40


Post by: iGuy91


Please for the love of god. Don't nerf destroyers. 3 shots is appropriate. They really aren't good anti-armor unless using extermination protocols.

Buff the overpriced garbage that is heavy destroyers.
Make the heavy destroyers either heavy 2, or make them be d3+3 damage, and thus more reliable.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/28 19:15:19


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 iGuy91 wrote:
Please for the love of god. Don't nerf destroyers. 3 shots is appropriate. They really aren't good anti-armor unless using extermination protocols.

Buff the overpriced garbage that is heavy destroyers.
Make the heavy destroyers either heavy 2, or make them be d3+3 damage, and thus more reliable.


Having more reliable multi-damage weapons might be an interesting faction trait. You'd think an advanced race obsessed with efficiency and reputed to have dangerous weapons would have weapons with less widely variable damage output.
I mean, necron heavy weapons should really deal at least 2 damage, guaranteed.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/29 17:45:48


Post by: Archebius


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Having more reliable multi-damage weapons might be an interesting faction trait. You'd think an advanced race obsessed with efficiency and reputed to have dangerous weapons would have weapons with less widely variable damage output.
I mean, necron heavy weapons should really deal at least 2 damage, guaranteed.
And I think that comment really points to a lot of my issues with how the Necrons feel right now. We're supposed to be advanced, and we can do some neat deployment tricks that other factions can't, and we have unparalleled healing ability (when our units aren't completely wiped out)... but none of it feels very useful, and it comes at the expense of fielding an effective and efficient army.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/31 16:35:45


Post by: dapperbandit


Necrons badly need a points decrease. If you wanted to have fun and take 30 Lychguard in a Vanguard that's basically a 1000 point detachment, more if you're using shields and depending on your HQs.
No max strength unit of infantry should cost more than 280 in my opinion.

But here are some other suggestions

Annihilation Barges: Increase range on the Tesla Destructor to 48", increase shots to 12, increase damage to 2. At least two of those things needs to happen. I'm fine with it being AP0 that's Tesla's thing.

Deathmarks: make them S6 AP0... or S5 AP-1. They're too weak currently.

The Monolith: this is the big one. First of all, it can afford to drop about 80 points. Give it a 2+ Save and T10. But most importantly, the wording on the Eternity Gate rule needs to change as currently, per the current Beta rules units on the tomb world cannot come out of the Monolith till Turn 3 outside your Deployment Zone. That's nuts. It should read: "after the Monolith has moved in the Movement Phase, a single unit that was set up on their tomb world be transported onto the battlefield by the Monolith." This rewording would also apply to the Night Scythe.

I sincerely believe that this one wording change could affect our whole Faction Meta. If you can drop the Monolith 12" away from the enemy Turn 2, AND then disembark unit(s) who can move, advance, shoot or charge the same turn, it would make units like Lychguard so much more attractive, and make more diverse lists a possibility.

An alternative specific to the Night Scythe... it's an invasion beam, make it long range so you can do it up to 9" away from the model.

Ghost Arks: should have a transport capacity of 12. Warriors take one space, all other infantry units take 2 spaces. That way the transport can take one HQ and a 5 man squad of anything.

For Gauss weapons: you could have them get +1 to wound against vehicles or models with 10+ Wounds.



Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/31 16:38:09


Post by: JNAProductions


I worry about the Deathmark change. Seems... A little much.

Rest of it seems cool.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/31 16:47:57


Post by: torblind


T10 is quite unprecedented too


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rest is big yay.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/31 16:53:01


Post by: JNAProductions


torblind wrote:
T10 is quite unprecedented too


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rest is big yay.


Honestly, all that really means is Heavy Bolters and their equivalents wound on 6s.

And Lascannons on 5s... Maybe T9 would be better.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/31 16:56:18


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


Looking at the BAO results (i know im late) and the invitational tournament (only 1x necrons and the final being IK soup vs IK soup) I really hope for some drastic changes by now... If not by buffing the necron units themself then nerfing the s..t out of CP battery, IK, just the current meta as this might indirectly buff necrons too.

Seeing as FLG being a playtester and they (Reece) dont think CP Battery is OP im expecting just minor to none tweaks


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/31 16:56:59


Post by: torblind


I mean.. T10/2+ I'd take it almost every time, just for an unkillable gun blob that does teleport shenanigans. Always comes in handy.

Seems they are only doing point adjustments though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Looking at the BAO results (i know im late) and the invitational tournament (only 1x necrons and the final being IK soup vs IK soup) I really hope for some drastic changes by now... If not by buffing the necron units themself then nerfing the s..t out of CP battery, IK, just the current meta as this might indirectly buff necrons too.

Seeing as FLG being a playtester and they (Reece) dont think CP Battery is OP im expecting just minor to none tweaks


Yeah I can't quite wrap my mind around FLG, for someone who seems that serious and devotes that much time and effort, I mean just count the number of necron appearances and their results by now and compared to what they said about them.. obvious disconnect.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/08/31 18:14:28


Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


torblind wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Looking at the BAO results (i know im late) and the invitational tournament (only 1x necrons and the final being IK soup vs IK soup) I really hope for some drastic changes by now... If not by buffing the necron units themself then nerfing the s..t out of CP battery, IK, just the current meta as this might indirectly buff necrons too.

Seeing as FLG being a playtester and they (Reece) dont think CP Battery is OP im expecting just minor to none tweaks


Yeah I can't quite wrap my mind around FLG, for someone who seems that serious and devotes that much time and effort, I mean just count the number of necron appearances and their results by now and compared to what they said about them.. obvious disconnect.


Just this. The meta just changed to (Dark)Eldar vs AM soup (BA/Custodes plus IK). Especially him (Reece) being fully serious „I played a bad demon list once at GT and went 4 1 so this means demons sre good“ , the same with a space marines list. This is just delusional.
Changing the meta to even less models, why even release Adeptus Titanicus? CP Battery is broken. Only a handful of armies are viable and this CP thing is boosting already strong codexies even more breaking the game mechanic and balance.

Sorry for OT...

Change Necron points somehow but even with point changes I dont see how to make necrons a GOOD codex (with fun diverse builds etc) WITHOUT changing their rules.
More and more I dont feel so good about the FAQ/CA


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/09/24 09:30:12


Post by: dapperbandit


So what kind of adjustment is appropriate for our most expensive troops?

At the moment Lychguard with shields are 34, Lychguard with scythes and Praetorians are 30. RP favours max strength units and spending 300+ a pop on a single unit is eye watering. So what would be reasonable to expect?

And for our vehicles? Night Scythes and Doom Scythes are worse than Wave Serpents in just about every way but are more expensive. The Annihilation Barge performs very poorly for it's cost; it's problems go way beyond the mere cost of it, but a points drop would be welcome nonetheless.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/09/24 09:43:05


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


None. They need buffs and synergies, not mere points drops. "Just make a cheaper" is a terrible way to solve a problem.
Remember that Lychguard and Praets have 2 wounds each. They can actually get away with being in units of 5.

Tesla Destructors need to be stronger. Either double the shots or D2, but not both.

Flyers in general need to have that stupid minimum movement rule removed. Its a port over from 7th, and its gak.

Guard are actually pretty good, they are just so slow. Necron mobility options are too limited this edition. Monoliths can't bring in units from the tomb world when they arrive, Scythes are flyers, ergo crap, and the Veil of Darkness is once a game. All of these need rectifying, and maybe a ground based night scythe equivalent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dapperbandit wrote:


Annihilation Barges: Increase range on the Tesla Destructor to 48", increase shots to 12, increase damage to 2. At least two of those things needs to happen. I'm fine with it being AP0 that's Tesla's thing.




No. That's insane. Destructors don't need to be that long ranged because they are already on a mobile platform. If you can't get into range with the annihilation barge, you are doing something wrong.
It goes against the necron identity too; necrons are supposed to have limited range weapons on average. Anything more than that are the exceptions, not the rule.
12 shots at 2 damage each seems excessive to me. I don't think there's a unit in the game that can deal that many S7+auto hit shots at 2 damage for ~150 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dapperbandit wrote:



Deathmarks: make them S6 AP0... or S5 AP-1. They're too weak currently.


Eh, probably S5. They already deal mortal wounds, so AP-1 might be overkill. Remember that they can take the Mephrit trait, which means that -1 can become -2. That's pretty nasty in conjunction with mortal wounds.
They could probably drop a point or two as they are only T4 3+ save models, and I would like to see their marking ability return from 5th ed. I mean, they are called Deathmarks. Their name doesn't make sense anymore. I have no idea why they dropped it. Then again, a lot of their decisions for necrons are questionable.

dapperbandit wrote:


The Monolith: this is the big one. First of all, it can afford to drop about 80 points. Give it a 2+ Save and T10. But most importantly, the wording on the Eternity Gate rule needs to change as currently, per the current Beta rules units on the tomb world cannot come out of the Monolith till Turn 3 outside your Deployment Zone. That's nuts. It should read: "after the Monolith has moved in the Movement Phase, a single unit that was set up on their tomb world be transported onto the battlefield by the Monolith." This rewording would also apply to the Night Scythe.



Eh, not sure about the T10. Seems to be too excessive, especially when combined the 2+ save and Living Metal. The 2+ save byitself is probably fine, but I think the 80 points drop might be too much if we go that route. Maybe 40 points.
Agreed with the wording on the Eternity Gate. As is it doesn't work and the monolith has to stay on the table for a turn. During which time your opponent could surround it and stop it from deploying units.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/09/24 10:31:15


Post by: Reanimation_Protocol


if we're just spitballing here, seeing as GW will never implement any changes apart from point cost changes.

this would be my wish list

NightScythe and Monolith to get the ability to deploy troops at the END of movement phase.

all D6 damage weapons become D3+3

Gauss flayers+1 to wound vs vehicles ... AP-2 or D2 on 6's to wound.

C'tan Nightbringer gets to regain lost wounds on "Gaze of death"

Allow charges from Deceiver re-deploy.

Heavy Tesla weapons D2 or exploding on 5+

Change majority of stratagems either lower CP cost and/or make them affect more than just infantry. and let Praetorians use the Advance and charge stratagem

Wraiths whipcoils cost = 0 or give them reroll wounds

Canoptek Spyders need more wounds, better save and the ability to add to scarab swarms greater than their original size.

Flayed ones Attacks back to 4

Necron Character with a TRIARCH keyword, even if it's just a cryptek.

Make the stratagem that ignores invuln saves work on the whole number of attacks .... our characters have most 4 attacks, specialising into Novokh with the blood scythe and the WL trait should provide some decent means of CC

also Make it apply to C'Tan ... Nightbringer Scythe should ignore invulns .. full stop!

and lastly

evverything should cost half as much as it does now








Necron point adjustments @ 2018/09/26 06:34:21


Post by: p5freak


CA 2019 might bring a few rules changes, but not the new FAQ, that one only point drops.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/01 11:28:57


Post by: MrPieChee


I think we can all agree points alone aren't going to fix necrons, so the best bet is to work out what changes give them the tools they need, and then point that.

Necrons should be good at taking out armour. Converting to wound rolls of 6 into MW for Gauss weapons against vehicles only, seems thematic to me, but I can see that it would be disliked.

Coming up with something good to get that core necron Gauss theme is tough. Perhaps Gauss weapons always wound vehicles on no worse than 5+?

Living metal sucks. Models with more than 5 wounds need living metal d3, and more than 10 wounds need d6. Then Spyder and cloaks can add d3 to this roll.

All non-named characters could do with an extra attack.

All deny the witch attempts need a +1/+2/+3. Necrons waged a war against a pyshic for, and should be proficient at disrupting psyhic attacks. Currently no one takes gloom prisims because they just don't do anything. Immortal pride could become too good if this gets the same buff. Perhaps pride should get a +2 and prisims +3?


Heavy Gauss cannons being heavy 2 (twins heavy 4) would help make stalkers worth while, and heavy destroyers better. (H.destroyers might need a price bump for this).


Reainimation protocols needs a buff. I think nerfing it to only let you reanimate models lost in your opponents last turn, but buffing it so you can roll for units that got removed would be thematic and balanced.

Ghost arks are ambulances for warriors. Letting them carry any infantry just isn't right. Instead, necrons need access to their core method of teleportation. I suggest changing the tomb world deployment via night scythe or monolith to ignor the reserves deployment rule. It's very different for the intended restriction to reserves, and necrons have no transports for all but one unit, so it makes perfect sense. The monolith might need a change so units can exit the turn it deep strikes though. Both could just gain the transport 20 rule, and then tombworld units can fill that space if another unit isn't there.

Monoliths need QS. Quantum sheilding is a really nice rule that makes necrons standout in this edition. Monoliths are THE poster child unit for necrons. It's a massive oversight these haven't been merged.

I think everyone is agreed Tesla destructors should be dmg 2

Triach units not getting dynasty traits is fine, if they can act alone. Stalkers should get a scout rule like eldar walkers so their fluff actually makes sense. Praetorian's getting assult 2 on their rods would make rods an option. Then both need a point drop.

Since scarabs are in warrior kits, and they are in the hotly contested fast attack slot, having a unit of scarabs as troops for each warrior unit in that detachment would be good.

Barges need the option to take twin heavy Gauss cannons.

Doomsday arks need their heavy d6 changed to either heavy 3 or heavy 4.

Scythes need a rule to not suffer a -1 to hit with heavy weapons.

The obelisk need gravity pulse turned into a weapon: pick a point at the range given away from the obelisk, each unit the line passes through suffers d3 hits for every 5 models in the unit, at str 6(?) AP 3(?). If the unit is a flyer, each hit causes a MW instead of normal damage. The fluff says it's an all purpose invasion defense, let's make it so! Possibly it should do more lower str hits, but ignor armour?



I think that covers all the changes needed to give necrons the tools to put up a fight. Making those changes without point changes first seems like the best bet. Then adjust points as needed. My guess is all infantry still need to lose 1-4 points (imortals 1, warriors 2, praetorian's 3, lytch 2, flayed 4). Barges and stalkers could probably lose 20pts. The monolith might be about right with those changes. It should be slow and unstoppable. It should be delt with by moving away from it and ignoring it, not destroying it the turn it arrives.





Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/01 12:38:52


Post by: torblind


MrPieChee wrote:
I think we can all agree points alone aren't going to fix necrons, so the best bet is to work out what changes give them the tools they need, and then point that.

Necrons should be good at taking out armour. Converting to wound rolls of 6 into MW for Gauss weapons against vehicles only, seems thematic to me, but I can see that it would be disliked.

Coming up with something good to get that core necron Gauss theme is tough. Perhaps Gauss weapons always wound vehicles on no worse than 5+?

Living metal sucks. Models with more than 5 wounds need living metal d3, and more than 10 wounds need d6. Then Spyder and cloaks can add d3 to this roll.

All non-named characters could do with an extra attack.

All deny the witch attempts need a +1/+2/+3. Necrons waged a war against a pyshic for, and should be proficient at disrupting psyhic attacks. Currently no one takes gloom prisims because they just don't do anything. Immortal pride could become too good if this gets the same buff. Perhaps pride should get a +2 and prisims +3?


Heavy Gauss cannons being heavy 2 (twins heavy 4) would help make stalkers worth while, and heavy destroyers better. (H.destroyers might need a price bump for this).


Reainimation protocols needs a buff. I think nerfing it to only let you reanimate models lost in your opponents last turn, but buffing it so you can roll for units that got removed would be thematic and balanced.

Ghost arks are ambulances for warriors. Letting them carry any infantry just isn't right. Instead, necrons need access to their core method of teleportation. I suggest changing the tomb world deployment via night scythe or monolith to ignor the reserves deployment rule. It's very different for the intended restriction to reserves, and necrons have no transports for all but one unit, so it makes perfect sense. The monolith might need a change so units can exit the turn it deep strikes though. Both could just gain the transport 20 rule, and then tombworld units can fill that space if another unit isn't there.

Monoliths need QS. Quantum sheilding is a really nice rule that makes necrons standout in this edition. Monoliths are THE poster child unit for necrons. It's a massive oversight these haven't been merged.

I think everyone is agreed Tesla destructors should be dmg 2

Triach units not getting dynasty traits is fine, if they can act alone. Stalkers should get a scout rule like eldar walkers so their fluff actually makes sense. Praetorian's getting assult 2 on their rods would make rods an option. Then both need a point drop.

Since scarabs are in warrior kits, and they are in the hotly contested fast attack slot, having a unit of scarabs as troops for each warrior unit in that detachment would be good.

Barges need the option to take twin heavy Gauss cannons.

Doomsday arks need their heavy d6 changed to either heavy 3 or heavy 4.

Scythes need a rule to not suffer a -1 to hit with heavy weapons.

The obelisk need gravity pulse turned into a weapon: pick a point at the range given away from the obelisk, each unit the line passes through suffers d3 hits for every 5 models in the unit, at str 6(?) AP 3(?). If the unit is a flyer, each hit causes a MW instead of normal damage. The fluff says it's an all purpose invasion defense, let's make it so! Possibly it should do more lower str hits, but ignor armour?



I think that covers all the changes needed to give necrons the tools to put up a fight. Making those changes without point changes first seems like the best bet. Then adjust points as needed. My guess is all infantry still need to lose 1-4 points (imortals 1, warriors 2, praetorian's 3, lytch 2, flayed 4). Barges and stalkers could probably lose 20pts. The monolith might be about right with those changes. It should be slow and unstoppable. It should be delt with by moving away from it and ignoring it, not destroying it the turn it arrives.





Good post, exalted.

The Anni-barge is clearly modeled with a single gauss cannon, is there any precedence from other models in the GW universe where rule changes has contradicted physical models like this? (I'm not opposed to the change as such, just suspect that they hardly will create new molds for this if their level of perfection is that high.)

Also - wouldn't this make the Obelisk reach damage outputs close to that of the T Vault? I believe they would like to maintain some distinction between the two.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/01 13:00:45


Post by: MrPieChee


torblind wrote:

Good post, exalted.

The Anni-barge is clearly modeled with a single gauss cannon, is there any precedence from other models in the GW universe where rule changes has contradicted physical models like this? (I'm not opposed to the change as such, just suspect that they hardly will create new molds for this if their level of perfection is that high.)

Also - wouldn't this make the Obelisk reach damage outputs close to that of the T Vault? I believe they would like to maintain some distinction between the two.


For the barge I mean replace the twin Tesla destructors with twin heavy Gauss cannons. GW used to have loads of rules for kits that didn't exist, but I don't think it's a thing anymore. However, it would simply be a case of taking a stalker twin heavy Gauss cannon and mounting it on a barge.

Necrons have three big non-FW tanks - vault, obelisk, monolith. At the moment the vault focuses hard as nails models, the monolith focuses vehicles (badly?) and the obelisk flyers. All have limited horde clearing ability with their secondary weapons. The t-vault is in an ok place, the monolith has potential as a transport of sorts, but the obelisk is just limited by it's primary function. There is potential to just drastically reduce it's points (and keep it's rules the same), but I feel making the gravity pulse a weapon in it's own right would give it more utility. Boosting horde clearing would give a nudge to fluff and keep it distinct from the other two fortresses.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/05 12:06:01


Post by: dapperbandit


Interesting about the gloom prisms. If it were up to me, rather than simply enabling Deny the Witch, I'd just have them flat out subtract 2 or 3 from enemy psychic rolls. They're supposed to shut down access to the warp after all.

Also if Cryptek's could take them that'd be good.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/06 08:16:14


Post by: MrPieChee


That seems like a good idea - psychic rolls within 24" suffer a -2, and within 12" suffer a -3....


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/25 10:03:29


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/25 10:37:34


Post by: tneva82


torblind wrote:
[q

I keep coming back to somehow allowing RP even if a unit is wiped. Models dying this turn could have an end of turn RP on 6+ for example, and then possibly normal 5+ start of your next imediate turn.

Then suddenly your enemy wouldn't want to wipe a large unit in one go. If you wipe lets say 20 warriors as a result of enemies shooting, psychic and fight phase, then you would have an imediate 6+ end-of-turn RP for 20 models lost that round (getting you back 3), and then 5+ for the remaining 17, getting you back another 6.

Much better then to stop when its withered down to perhaps 2-3, even letting me pay 2CP to pass morale. Then next time, when they are back up to only 7-8, he could wipe them all, perhaps without me rolling any end-of-turn 6s for those that died that turn.

Perhaps allow this only once per game, but then you have to keep track which is a burden.



Problem with NOT having it as once per game is that kill points will either be ridiculously easy wins for enemy(you get 1KP every time you kill unit. It comes back, you kill again, you get yet another KP. Oh and as much keeping track anyway...) or necrons will be basically impossible to win in kill point scenarios. Especially if necrons go 2nd(so necrons winning who goes first roll=necron win) as you would would need to have unit dead on the end of game which means if necrons go 2nd will get RP for every model before game ends...So basically would be super unlucky to have any units barring characters actually dead in the end...

There HAS to be some way to kill necron unit and keep it dead without relying on failing every single RP roll for 10+ models. By very minimum you need to decide does the unit come down on more likely to fail roll than "5+ for 10 models, if even 1 succeeds no KP for you nyahnyahnyah". Or alternatively all "kill unit, score X" end of game victory conditions needs to die. Which albeit is option I could get behind with.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/25 10:53:24


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


One possibility could be that you can can Roll RP for a wiped unit, but any models that fail are permanently gone. So if a wiped unit comes back with 1 model, that unit is going to stay with 1 model.
Res Orbs could waive this caveat, thus giving them a reason to be taken.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/25 11:35:00


Post by: torblind


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
One possibility could be that you can can Roll RP for a wiped unit, but any models that fail are permanently gone. So if a wiped unit comes back with 1 model, that unit is going to stay with 1 model.
Res Orbs could waive this caveat, thus giving them a reason to be taken.


Or allow it once only, as you do with the stratagems for characters


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/25 12:48:03


Post by: MrPieChee


Or, as I stated on the previous page, only let models roll for rp if they were killed in the last round. You would leave the models on the table, so don't give up the kp until the unit doesn't come back. That way they take a really long time to completely wipe out, but get weaker and weaker such that balancing them isn't a problem.

The res orb could give you a one time roll for every dead model, not just ones from the last round.


As for Gauss giving an extra damage on a 6 - that's a really nice idea. Would mean normal warriors could do hard damage against elite infantry, and strengthen heavy weapons...


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/25 14:46:49


Post by: Kriswall


From a casual player's perspective...

HQs seem generally fine. Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, Wraiths and Scarabs seem generally fine and usually do good work for me.

Most everything else in the Codex? Meh... I'd almost always rather just have more of the above. I'd like to see a lot of price drops to make other options a little more points efficient.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 13:42:08


Post by: pique311


 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 14:11:35


Post by: torblind


 pique311 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature


You're joking right


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 14:32:06


Post by: p5freak


Don't worry. Nothing will happen to the RP rule. All we (hopefully) get are point reductions.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 15:37:58


Post by: pique311


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?

I don't think the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies, and Alaitoc traits are overpowered. If anything, the main people complaining are people whining their gunline has a less easy time killing things. I'm fine with that.

Now should -1 to hit stack beyond -2? That can be up for debate.

Exactly. Modifiers to hit/wound should never stack imo, cover should be granted more easily and 1s always fail and 6s always hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
torblind wrote:
 pique311 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature


You're joking right

I am not. I'm just suggesting a 5+ (4+ with cryptek) after you fail a save, but before rolling dmg. Quite simple and not overpowered. Could be improved in some way with strats and the orb. How do you feel is "a joke"?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 20:28:36


Post by: torblind


 pique311 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
You know what's even easier to deny? Alaitoc Fieldcraft - just get within 12"!

By that argument - it being easy to deny - you could say that's not OP either?

I don't think the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies, and Alaitoc traits are overpowered. If anything, the main people complaining are people whining their gunline has a less easy time killing things. I'm fine with that.

Now should -1 to hit stack beyond -2? That can be up for debate.

Exactly. Modifiers to hit/wound should never stack imo, cover should be granted more easily and 1s always fail and 6s always hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
torblind wrote:
 pique311 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
RP is easily countered by destroying the entire unit. It should be a 5+ or 4+ FNP.

I think it should be like a 5+ roll after you fail your armor save, getting it to a 4+ with a cryptek. Also make some decent strat to buff it and you have a way more resilient army. Right now it's not really "resilient", it's just able to ressurrect SOME miniatures after surviving a full turn from the enemy. Yeah, not working.
They could also have a -1 tot this roll if the wound had double the S than T or something like that, to represent an "overkill" impact on the miniature


You're joking right

I am not. I'm just suggesting a 5+ (4+ with cryptek) after you fail a save, but before rolling dmg. Quite simple and not overpowered. Could be improved in some way with strats and the orb. How do you feel is "a joke"?


This is to the print identical to the rules for Necrons in 7th edition. All of it. One would be unlikely to get that right just by chance.

It's the kind of thing someone would throw around as a bad joke, suggesting between the lines that there was no point changing away from that really (although non-necron players hated it). Which of course really all is only a sign of frustration and nobody laughs anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, they gave the army wide 5+-addtional-save mechanic to death guard, they are unlikely to give it back to necrons again.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 20:56:45


Post by: pique311


torblind wrote:

This is to the print identical to the rules for Necrons in 7th edition. All of it. One would be unlikely to get that right just by chance.

It's the kind of thing someone would throw around as a bad joke, suggesting between the lines that there was no point changing away from that really (although non-necron players hated it). Which of course really all is only a sign of frustration and nobody laughs anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, they gave the army wide 5+-addtional-save mechanic to death guard, they are unlikely to give it back to necrons again.

Well, I did get this by chance, as I had not played necrons before march this year. I knew a thing or two about them in older editions, but not the exact rule. Not a bad joke by any means. Anyway, leaving all this behind, I do think it is better than the rule we have now.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 21:02:15


Post by: torblind


 pique311 wrote:
torblind wrote:

This is to the print identical to the rules for Necrons in 7th edition. All of it. One would be unlikely to get that right just by chance.

It's the kind of thing someone would throw around as a bad joke, suggesting between the lines that there was no point changing away from that really (although non-necron players hated it). Which of course really all is only a sign of frustration and nobody laughs anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, they gave the army wide 5+-addtional-save mechanic to death guard, they are unlikely to give it back to necrons again.

Well, I did get this by chance, as I had not played necrons before march this year. I knew a thing or two about them in older editions, but not the exact rule. Not a bad joke by any means. Anyway, leaving all this behind, I do think it is better than the rule we have now.


Yeah, its likely someone think about something like this to "fix things" at one time point. It's not necessarily a bad solution. Powerwise necrons were a top-tier army with this mechanic for RP. But they gave it to Death Guard, and changed Necron RP to be something very different. They won't re-do all that.

People complained how Necrons were unkillable, and there was no fun in just rolling a bunch of dice all the time.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 22:28:39


Post by: pique311


torblind wrote:

Yeah, its likely someone think about something like this to "fix things" at one time point. It's not necessarily a bad solution. Powerwise necrons were a top-tier army with this mechanic for RP. But they gave it to Death Guard, and changed Necron RP to be something very different. They won't re-do all that.

People complained how Necrons were unkillable, and there was no fun in just rolling a bunch of dice all the time.

Okay, I can see why they changed it. Then, what other ways do we have to fix RP? The rule we have now is okay in low-point games, but it doesn't stack at 1000+ points, and is very easy to counter; as many have pointed. So, what could we realistically do to improve it appart from points-drop?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/28 22:34:17


Post by: Blndmage


Allow RP rolls at the end of your own Fight phase, before morale.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/29 10:39:06


Post by: grendal


"Long time" reader, first time poster here. I figured it's time to weigh in, because one possibility to improve RP without making it too OP, has rarely been mentioned or discussed here.
For one, I would like to see RP done at the end of the movement phase for obvious reasons already discussed before.
What RP lacks however, is reactiveness. We know that in 1k+ games, the opponent can pretty much control RP. So I would like to see two changes. 1) Change the wording on the resurrection orb to: …, once per battle, you can make RP rolls for… You see that I just deleted the timing clause in the rule, meaning that we can make an RP roll at any point in the game and thereby react to our enemy focusing a unit. That way we can at least try to save a unit from being focused down. Second, I would like to see the exact same ability on a 2CP? stratagem, it can imo replace “enhanced reanimation protocols” as it is utter crap atm.
These changes would give us the ability to at least try to be reactive with RP, without it being OP, as it either costs points (the orb)/CP and doesn’t simply bring back entire units, that were already destroyed like “tide of traitors” (I hate these abilities and think they are OP and unfun).


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/29 12:47:36


Post by: iGuy91


I could see it working this way....
At any time, use the Res Orb to immediately roll RP.

That would include your opponent's shooting/assault phase.

Otherwise, I think a solid hunk of our issues can be addressed via price cuts. Immortals to 15-16 points, Warriors to 11. HQs need to be made cheaper across the board maybe 5 points.

A whole bunch of our codex is overpriced, points cuts let us field more units, which give us a chance to spread damage, which increases the likelihood of rolling RP.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/29 13:04:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I really like the idea of allowing the Res Orb to roll for RP at any point in the game. Its so simple, I wish I thought of that.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/30 16:02:08


Post by: pique311


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/30 16:33:01


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 pique311 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/30 17:28:49


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 pique311 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.


You'd need less wounding hits to take down a vehicle and you can one shot primaris. D2 is pretty good.
Yeah, restricting it to gauss immortals and warriors doesn't really make sense, as there are other units that use gauss weapons. Destroyers come to mind.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/10/30 22:02:46


Post by: pique311


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.

I meant units with gauss weaponry


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/01 02:14:30


Post by: Phaeron Gukk


Reading through previous posts;
1. Rolling for RP at the end of the movement phase sounds good. It probably won't do too much (unless I'm missing something), but I'd certainly consider taking a Cloak-tek more often and that alone is worth something.
2. Popping a Rez Orb to roll for RP on the spot is a really cool idea, and I think something that would allow for more reactivity as a Necron player. Would also make the silly dodge-balls worth their points.
3. Points drops, duh.
4. Gauss needs its old anti-armor teeth back, but in a way that helps our troops without boosting Destroyers as much. How about for some CP (not sure how much), you pick a unit packing Gauss shooting at a Vehicle, and on each Wound roll of a 6 it doesn't get an armor save against that shot? It's sorta-like MW, but Invuln saves are still available so it's not quite as punishing, and has diminishing returns based on existing AP.
5. With regards to rezzing dead units, I think the best way to handle that is something along the lines of:

Even Death May Die (2CP) - Use this stratagem when a Necron unit with the Reanimation Protocols ability is completely destroyed. Immediately roll Reanimation Protocols for that unit as if it were the [start of the turn/end of the movement phase], using its previous position for any relevant auras, items and/or abilities. Any models that fail this roll are considered to have fled the unit due to morale losses.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/01 20:59:11


Post by: DudleyGrim


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 pique311 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I really like the idea of an extra point of damage on a 6.
It's a good translation of the old gauss rule, and unlike the old gauss rule it actually benefits the heavier weapons.
The gauss rule Heavy Gauss Cannon was useless as you were always going to pen on a 6, but it was "add 1 point of damage on a 6", then the HCG now deals D6+1 damage, giving it 2-7 damage.

Or add a stategem for Gauss Inmortals and Warriors only. 1CP +1 to wound a vehicle unit. That would become one of the most essential strategems, just as old gauss hability was.

Only Warriors and Immortals? That makes no sense.

I do like the idea of extra damage on a 6 to wound. Would that really make them that much better though? I'm not too convinced but I would take anything.


You'd need less wounding hits to take down a vehicle and you can one shot primaris. D2 is pretty good.
Yeah, restricting it to gauss immortals and warriors doesn't really make sense, as there are other units that use gauss weapons. Destroyers come to mind.


I think destroyers are pretty good on their own atm. Maybe only give this bonus on a 6 to 1D gauss weaponry (indirect buff to monoliths ftw)

The stratagem for +1 to wound rolls vs vehicles for infantry also sound pretty sweet, and probably less of a sweeping change than changing all gauss weapons.

Honestly, the most realistic way to fix necrons would be a sweeping reduction in points. I read a post somewhere where a guy mentioned that 300 pts for destroyers and 200 pts for DDAs made us have bad AT. 250 pt destroyers and 150 pt DDAs on the other hand would give us absolutely amazing AT. I guess what I am trying to say is that anything can become good if it is cheap enough.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/02 11:06:53


Post by: tneva82


DudleyGrim wrote:
Honestly, the most realistic way to fix necrons would be a sweeping reduction in points. I read a post somewhere where a guy mentioned that 300 pts for destroyers and 200 pts for DDAs made us have bad AT. 250 pt destroyers and 150 pt DDAs on the other hand would give us absolutely amazing AT. I guess what I am trying to say is that anything can become good if it is cheap enough.


Then comes the issue of is it GOOD to have cheap necrons. If elite stuff goes down in points it starts to cram down bottom tier stuff into tight spot until they can't make those cheaper so if upper level stuff comes down in price then good bye balance. And board size starts to be issue...It already IS issue with hordes so dropping points won't help. And necrons don't exactly sound like horde army with all the descriptions about destructive weapons and superior technology.

In short: Rather than make them cheaper I would make them worth their points. The constant drive of point costs down just means you need to buy more models. I rarely hear 40k being too cheap of a hobby...

Now maybe your image of necrons is different but for me it's these robots with advanced weaponry from ages past that makes younger races tremble with fear. Terminator II style rather than Zulu horde so to speak ;-) I want necron stats and rules make opponent go "gulp". Even if it means I wont' have that many models. As long as models are worth it all good.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/02 11:27:17


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


tneva82 wrote:
DudleyGrim wrote:
Honestly, the most realistic way to fix necrons would be a sweeping reduction in points. I read a post somewhere where a guy mentioned that 300 pts for destroyers and 200 pts for DDAs made us have bad AT. 250 pt destroyers and 150 pt DDAs on the other hand would give us absolutely amazing AT. I guess what I am trying to say is that anything can become good if it is cheap enough.


Then comes the issue of is it GOOD to have cheap necrons. If elite stuff goes down in points it starts to cram down bottom tier stuff into tight spot until they can't make those cheaper so if upper level stuff comes down in price then good bye balance. And board size starts to be issue...It already IS issue with hordes so dropping points won't help. And necrons don't exactly sound like horde army with all the descriptions about destructive weapons and superior technology.

In short: Rather than make them cheaper I would make them worth their points. The constant drive of point costs down just means you need to buy more models. I rarely hear 40k being too cheap of a hobby...

Now maybe your image of necrons is different but for me it's these robots with advanced weaponry from ages past that makes younger races tremble with fear. Terminator II style rather than Zulu horde so to speak ;-) I want necron stats and rules make opponent go "gulp". Even if it means I wont' have that many models. As long as models are worth it all good.


They were kind of both, actually.
On one hand they were extremely deadly and were few in number compared to other races. On the other hand they always attacked in legions and their self-repair abilities as well as teleportation tech made it seem like you were fighting an inexhaustible tide of them. Hence their old tag line "their number is legion their name is death".

What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones. A necron invasion is always accompanied by a swarm of scarabs, so moving them to troops seem logical. Warriors could use a 1-2 point drop so they can fielded in force (as they should be) and tesla carbines and gauss blasters could use a slight points drop as well. In fact, most necron weapons should be made cheaper.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/02 14:09:21


Post by: Reanimation_Protocol


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/02 14:32:45


Post by: torblind


Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?


Nurglings even have infiltrate, don't they? So they could objective secure hold on to objectives even in the face of fast enemy elite units.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/02 15:23:06


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?

Yeah that's definitely a disconnect.


Necron point adjustments @ 2018/11/02 15:55:16


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?


They do? Huh, that's goofy. Do they have 10" movement?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
torblind wrote:
Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


What I'd like to see if for scarabs to be moved to troops, but not allow them to objective secure because they are mindless drones.

compared to Nurglings and Tyranid ripper swarms .. which are also swarm based troops and have ob sec.

there is precedent, why make an exception here ?


Nurglings even have infiltrate, don't they? So they could objective secure hold on to objectives even in the face of fast enemy elite units.


Oh in that case scarabs can totally objective secure. If other faction's swarms can do it then we should be able to as well.