Hi Guys, seems like there is a new "new primaris rumours" article every other week on BOLS / other gak peddler....

So what direction do you think they'll go? or what direction would you like them to go?

Personally, i liked the rumour of a smaller transport, maybe combined with the rumour of a new flyer- some kind of landspeeder/razorback hybrid with a 5 man transport capacity

any thoughts / hopes / dreams?

show me what you got

Never take what BOLS says to heart, wait till actual details comes out, bols is just a clickbate website with a few people that like warhammer.

With that said, I want bikes so they fix the biker rules.

Depends how they're selling, I'd imagine. Anyone any info on that or can give any insight as to where they're going to go?

They've sort of painted themselves into a corner with them because if they phase out Old Marines, players will just keep using their old models using the Primaris stat line.

A marine is a marine. A jump pack dude with two plasma guns kit bashed on to him is an Inceptor. A dreadnought is a dreadnought etc etc.

I'm hoping for bikers/cavalry myself.Something with a decent melee presence and good speed.

I don't think we'll get many new models except maybe one in the SW codex (and the odds are low I'd say) More likely we are going to see a stat buff/point reduction for reviers and an adjustment to flame agressors as they are the lowest performing Primaris models right now and we got another big FAQ in Sep.

It'll be a few years before we see OldMarines rotated out and their Primaris version come out. GW will want at least an edition if not two between the introduction of the primaris marines and the retooling of the molds for tactical marines and their oldschool counterparts. Maybe in 10th edition we'll see all marines get a second wound and then an announcement that primaris scaled tactical marine squads are being released - of course with the usual caveat that oldmarines can be used as CountsAs for an edition or two.

I'd like to see a Rhino equivalent and hoverbikes.

Count as only goes so far when competetive goes and TLoS gets involved. I recall a topic back in 5th where someone was talking about their old metal Terminators and a new player not believing they were valid models due to being smaller than the current kit. So eventually we'd see everything go full Primaris.

That said, Primaris are lacking a good melee option. Sure they can do a decent punch up (a 10 man Intercessor Squad gets 21 attacks after all), but they don't have a good unit for just tearing something apart. If Reivers got a -1 AP on their knife they'd fill that role, but for the moment I see them more as a harrassment unit that runs around with their guns and peppers back line units while Batmaning about the table.

A lighter troop transport with capacity six would be great. I am thinking a heavily armored landspeeder. Heavy Gatling cannon with a storm bolter and frag launcher add on. Can replace cannon with a las talon. Six capacity is essential that way it could carry an aggressor squad or a 5 man team with a character.

I'd like to see a melee focused biker squad. Have slow melee troops (Aggressors) and fast shooty guys (Inceptors) which amuses me. Melee needs to be fast so they require transports or just be fast. Bikes should have the standard bolt rifles or carbines mounted on it while the dudes carry lighter shields (5++ invuln or something) with a lance or a variety of power weapons. I am on the fence about them having fly or not. Fly is cool, but A LOT of factions have it and I don't want it to be over done. On the other hand the anti-grav low level flying does fit the Primaris theme.

A sternguard equivalent primaris elite choice.

A melee unit of shieldy boys. Shields and whatever power weapons you want. They get a bonus if they are all in base to base with each other. This bonus would probably be a +1 armor save. Decent melee boys more designed to grind down the enemy and tie them up, but still have power weapons. Same idea as Ogryn. On the inside of the shield is a heavy bolt pistol giving them a touch of ranged options.

Primaris tech marine.

A dedicated tank option in the same vain as the predator. Land based boom boom tank that goes pew pew. Gatling cannon, las talon, etc etc.

As for modifying existing units:

Reivers: -1 AP on their knives. They are melee unit no one is afraid of. Stratagem to throw their grenade 12 inches.

Intercessors: Option to buy chainswords for them. Option to buy heavy bolt pistols.

Aggressors: Let them have their frag launcher when they take the flame gauntlets.

Hellblasters: Buff their heavy weapon option by making it heavy two or 2 damage base.

You will eventually have a Primaris option to more or less replace all of the current Marine branches, though it won't be an exact match. The obvious lack right now is: terminator style super heavy infantry, and genuine melee units.

Also if GW plays this smart, they'll stat them correctly (since terminators and assault marines suck right now). Boom you have your reason to buy them.

Hopefully into a dumpster along with cawl

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Hopefully into a dumpster along with cawl

Five O' Clock. Parking lot. Be there. /Flex

I think if you are looking to the future of primaris simple look at AOS sigmarines. I suspect that they will update primaris along the same lines. So once SOB drop next year we are going to get a new SM codex soon after with a lot of new primaris models. Eventually, they will have an entire range with everything you like from regular SM just in better scale

I want jetbike primaris with GK weapons and psycannons build in to the bike.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Intercessors: Option to buy chainswords for them. Option to buy heavy bolt pistols.

I really feel like all of the Primaris models that have bolt pistols should have gotten heavy bolt pistols instead. It'd fit the army a lot better.

Process wrote:
Hi Guys, seems like there is a new "new primaris rumours" article every other week on BOLS / other gak peddler....

So what direction do you think they'll go? or what direction would you like them to go?

Personally, i liked the rumour of a smaller transport, maybe combined with the rumour of a new flyer- some kind of landspeeder/razorback hybrid with a 5 man transport capacity

any thoughts / hopes / dreams?

show me what you got

It's probably just the SW's release, wouldn't be surprised if they get upgrades or a few new models.

I just picked some up recently, and I kinda wish they would just do away with the old marine infantry models and just use the Primaris stat line.

Yes, a lot of current marine options will be gone, but I say Good Riddance. I’d prefer the simpler data sheets and less weapon options to fiddle with. Marines just have too many options available to them and most of them are subpar anyway so they don’t get used.

As for what to give them, they need a bike unit. (As an aside, Primaris on grimdark versions of Segways would be hilarious). Also, the Rhino, Predator and other vehicles just need to be ported over to Primaris versions - it’s utterly silly they can’t just clamber into a Rhino FFS.

They're not going to completely sideline old marines until they markedly dip in sales and they're not going to fully flesh out the Primaris until they start selling lots.

This is why I'd be interested to hear from anyone in the know as to whether Primaris are flying off the shelves a year on from release.

This has always been GW's problem. They allow perceived demand to drive sales rather than creating that demand and then feeding it. When they took the decision to can WHFB sales were low but stable. They then launched the Nagash book and sales exploded. Until, that is, players realised where it was going and then threw their hat at the whole thing. Leading to AoS being dead on arrival.

To get people to buy lots of Primaris they need to put product out there and come up with something other than 'these are the bestest space marines of all time. FACT!' nonsense. So what they should be doing is launching different kits to make Primaris a standalone force. What they'll likely do is continue this anaemic approach where Primaris and Old Marines are living side by side. They should really be split and the fluff made more complex to justify it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Count as only goes so far when competetive goes and TLoS gets involved. I recall a topic back in 5th where someone was talking about their old metal Terminators and a new player not believing they were valid models due to being smaller than the current kit. So eventually we'd see everything go full Primaris.

That said, Primaris are lacking a good melee option. Sure they can do a decent punch up (a 10 man Intercessor Squad gets 21 attacks after all), but they don't have a good unit for just tearing something apart. If Reivers got a -1 AP on their knife they'd fill that role, but for the moment I see them more as a harrassment unit that runs around with their guns and peppers back line units while Batmaning about the table.

I'm in favor of Reivers getting an alternate build with Stalker Bolt Rifles instead of Carbines.

 Stormonu wrote:
I just picked some up recently, and I kinda wish they would just do away with the old marine infantry models and just use the Primaris stat line.

Yes, a lot of current marine options will be gone, but I say Good Riddance. I’d prefer the simpler data sheets and less weapon options to fiddle with. Marines just have too many options available to them and most of them are subpar anyway so they don’t get used.

As for what to give them, they need a bike unit. (As an aside, Primaris on grimdark versions of Segways would be hilarious). Also, the Rhino, Predator and other vehicles just need to be ported over to Primaris versions - it’s utterly silly they can’t just clamber into a Rhino FFS.

I just use Primaris, there is no need to get rid off the old line just yet.

Banville wrote:
They're not going to completely sideline old marines until they markedly dip in sales and they're not going to fully flesh out the Primaris until they start selling lots.

This is why I'd be interested to hear from anyone in the know as to whether Primaris are flying off the shelves a year on from release.

This has always been GW's problem. They allow perceived demand to drive sales rather than creating that demand and then feeding it. When they took the decision to can WHFB sales were low but stable. They then launched the Nagash book and sales exploded. Until, that is, players realised where it was going and then threw their hat at the whole thing. Leading to AoS being dead on arrival.

To get people to buy lots of Primaris they need to put product out there and come up with something other than 'these are the bestest space marines of all time. FACT!' nonsense. So what they should be doing is launching different kits to make Primaris a standalone force. What they'll likely do is continue this anaemic approach where Primaris and Old Marines are living side by side. They should really be split and the fluff made more complex to justify it.

8E has been enough of a success I believe they can get away with “ripping the band-aid off”. It’s pretty clear they’re not going to put out more non-Primaris releases, they just need to put the old kits onto the “Last Chance to Buy” and drop them by, say Christmas. Make it clear that they’re going with Primaris only, and if you want to pick up the old models there’s plenty of those on e-bay and the like.

This went off the tracks into “Spess Mehreens are DEAD now!” in record timing.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Count as only goes so far when competetive goes and TLoS gets involved. I recall a topic back in 5th where someone was talking about their old metal Terminators and a new player not believing they were valid models due to being smaller than the current kit. So eventually we'd see everything go full Primaris.

That said, Primaris are lacking a good melee option. Sure they can do a decent punch up (a 10 man Intercessor Squad gets 21 attacks after all), but they don't have a good unit for just tearing something apart. If Reivers got a -1 AP on their knife they'd fill that role, but for the moment I see them more as a harrassment unit that runs around with their guns and peppers back line units while Batmaning about the table.

I'm in favor of Reivers getting an alternate build with Stalker Bolt Rifles instead of Carbines.

That could be cool. Elite sneaky sniper Marines with spooky skull masks seem cool to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:
This went off the tracks into “Spess Mehreens are DEAD now!” in record timing.

Something had to replace all of our derails about Sisters needing a real codex and update.

I definatly think a terminator equivilant and a melee specialist primaris marine are needed. could even combine the two.

Put em in some sort of "terminator armor" give em each a power weapon and a bolt rifle. it'd work alright. especially if they where veterns, as SM vets have always gotten +1 attack, so a primaris terminator force would be a 5 man squad with 15 attacks... it'd be decent.

What concerns me a bit about the new "terminator" replacements is that they'll be exorbitantly expensive. If Aggressors which are large models are already on the pricey side to buy and build....terminators will end up being the size of those god-gak-awful Centurions or something.

I personally think they missed a huge beat with the Aggressors being statted so poorly as far as toughness/wounds/armour. They look like a perfect upgrade to terminators, but are not.

 Elbows wrote:
What concerns me a bit about the new "terminator" replacements is that they'll be exorbitantly expensive. If Aggressors which are large models are already on the pricey side to buy and build....terminators will end up being the size of those god-gak-awful Centurions or something.

I personally think they missed a huge beat with the Aggressors being statted so poorly as far as toughness/wounds/armour. They look like a perfect upgrade to terminators, but are not.

Primaris sized Centurions could be cool. Though only if they drop the army mounted guns and just got with drills and chest weapons or fists and chest weapons.

I kind of like gravis armour being so different from regular terminator armour, but the lack of a unit with a 2+ does feel kind of off right now.

A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

BrianDavion wrote:
A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

I don't think a shield is the way to go. I mean, visually it's very Imperial, but I feel like the bulk of Gravis keeps it from really working in my head.

this is going to be crazy but just hear me out: Primaris CSM!

The CSM troop box needs an update, and why not upscale them to be the same size as primaris marines? Throw in an updated Chaos weapons and bits sprue and you have yourself some mighty fine CSM and Chosen models.

DudleyGrim wrote:
this is going to be crazy but just hear me out: Primaris CSM!

The CSM troop box needs an update, and why not upscale them to be the same size as primaris marines? Throw in an updated Chaos weapons and bits sprue and you have yourself some mighty fine CSM and Chosen models.

The whole point of Primaris was to make them more resistant to chaos.

So, at least for now, any embiggening of the CSM would likely come from Bile's experiments or the gifts of the gods.

Isn't it stated that Gravis armour is more like a mounting platform than heavy Armour? Sure it adds the 1T but aggressors have mounted weapons and inceptors have flight upgrades.

GW wrote these guys pretty open. Love them or hate them, Primaris are very open for new kits.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Isn't it stated that Gravis armour is more like a mounting platform than heavy Armour? Sure it adds the 1T but aggressors have mounted weapons and inceptors have flight upgrades.

GW wrote these guys pretty open. Love them or hate them, Primaris are very open for new kits.

It's very true, but it's the shape of them that makes me question them using physical shields. Maybe some kind of force shield like a Iron Halo, to leave their hands free for other things.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

I don't think a shield is the way to go. I mean, visually it's very Imperial, but I feel like the bulk of Gravis keeps it from really working in my head.

it'd need to be large tower shield ala the breacher shields from HH

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

I don't think a shield is the way to go. I mean, visually it's very Imperial, but I feel like the bulk of Gravis keeps it from really working in my head.

it'd need to be large tower shield ala the breacher shields from HH

Yeah, something massive that they basically plant might do the trick. Maybe nick the Ogryn slabshields and let them form a defensive line the board?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

I don't think a shield is the way to go. I mean, visually it's very Imperial, but I feel like the bulk of Gravis keeps it from really working in my head.

it'd need to be large tower shield ala the breacher shields from HH

Yeah, something massive that they basically plant might do the trick. Maybe nick the Ogryn slabshields and let them form a defensive line the board?

well.. GW seems to borrow a decent amount from the HH with some of this stuff so... I'm thinking something like
except Primaris Sized with a power weapon/wrist mounted bolt weapon.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

I don't think a shield is the way to go. I mean, visually it's very Imperial, but I feel like the bulk of Gravis keeps it from really working in my head.

it'd need to be large tower shield ala the breacher shields from HH

Yeah, something massive that they basically plant might do the trick. Maybe nick the Ogryn slabshields and let them form a defensive line the board?

well.. GW seems to borrow a decent amount from the HH with some of this stuff so... I'm thinking something like (image)
except Primaris Sized with a power weapon/wrist mounted bolt weapon.

So...Intercessors with the Deathwatch storm shield bits?

That could work too, but I was thinking of Cawl nicking some more stuff from the Guard and giving them a massive slab shield style thing and they use a bolt storm gauntlet on the other hand.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Count as only goes so far when competetive goes and TLoS gets involved. I recall a topic back in 5th where someone was talking about their old metal Terminators and a new player not believing they were valid models due to being smaller than the current kit. So eventually we'd see everything go full Primaris.

That said, Primaris are lacking a good melee option. Sure they can do a decent punch up (a 10 man Intercessor Squad gets 21 attacks after all), but they don't have a good unit for just tearing something apart. If Reivers got a -1 AP on their knife they'd fill that role, but for the moment I see them more as a harrassment unit that runs around with their guns and peppers back line units while Batmaning about the table.

I'm in favor of Reivers getting an alternate build with Stalker Bolt Rifles instead of Carbines.

That could be cool. Elite sneaky sniper Marines with spooky skull masks seem cool to me.

I'd swap the heads for hoods at that point, maybe even go the half-cape or poncho route for a dedicated pseudo "scout" unit rather than the Reivers.

That's the idea behind the 'alternate build'. They'd have the same stripped down armour patterning, but other gubbins would be theirs.

Capes and hoods with sniper rifles might make them feel too Pathfinder-y. but I admit it could be a cool look.

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The Rampant Vision Landraider Ultimus Ultra Venerable Ancient can replace any of its Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannons with a Smoke Launcher.

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Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, it can only transport Primary Marines. And only 2.5 of them. Grav Armour takes up 3 spaces. Jump pack Marines (of either variety) take up only .32 spaces...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

I don't think a shield is the way to go. I mean, visually it's very Imperial, but I feel like the bulk of Gravis keeps it from really working in my head.

it'd need to be large tower shield ala the breacher shields from HH

Yeah, something massive that they basically plant might do the trick. Maybe nick the Ogryn slabshields and let them form a defensive line the board?

well.. GW seems to borrow a decent amount from the HH with some of this stuff so... I'm thinking something like (image)
except Primaris Sized with a power weapon/wrist mounted bolt weapon.

So...Intercessors with the Deathwatch storm shield bits?

No more Primaris Invictarus Suzerain though I don't think Gravis armour would work for that sort of unit.

Ice_can wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
A lack of 2+ would be alirhg tif they at least had something with a good invul save, Maybe a Primaris with a sword, stomr shield and wrist mounted bolt gun? heck toss it in Gravis armor and I think we have a winner.

I don't think a shield is the way to go. I mean, visually it's very Imperial, but I feel like the bulk of Gravis keeps it from really working in my head.

it'd need to be large tower shield ala the breacher shields from HH

Yeah, something massive that they basically plant might do the trick. Maybe nick the Ogryn slabshields and let them form a defensive line the board?

well.. GW seems to borrow a decent amount from the HH with some of this stuff so... I'm thinking something like (image)
except Primaris Sized with a power weapon/wrist mounted bolt weapon.

So...Intercessors with the Deathwatch storm shield bits?

No more Primaris Invictarus Suzerain though I don't think Gravis armour would work for that sort of unit.

I'm looking at my Gravis Captain and I think it would.

Asmodios wrote:
I think if you are looking to the future of primaris simple look at AOS sigmarines. I suspect that they will update primaris along the same lines. So once SOB drop next year we are going to get a new SM codex soon after with a lot of new primaris models. Eventually, they will have an entire range with everything you like from regular SM just in better scale

Is there a precedent for a second codex for the same faction within the same WH40K edition?

DudleyGrim wrote:
this is going to be crazy but just hear me out: Primaris CSM!

The CSM troop box needs an update, and why not upscale them to be the same size as primaris marines? Throw in an updated Chaos weapons and bits sprue and you have yourself some mighty fine CSM and Chosen models.

If you look at the death guard marines that have come out with 8th the scale has increased anyway with out being “primaris”. So no need to make chaos marines primaris ones just make a nice new kit because the old one is horrible.

I think if bile is making primaris types it should go wrong so you have a new unit similar, or exactly like in looks, the gal vorbak. Crazed warped types to replace possessed.

 Brother Castor wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I think if you are looking to the future of primaris simple look at AOS sigmarines. I suspect that they will update primaris along the same lines. So once SOB drop next year we are going to get a new SM codex soon after with a lot of new primaris models. Eventually, they will have an entire range with everything you like from regular SM just in better scale

Is there a precedent for a second codex for the same faction within the same WH40K edition?

7th did this a lot, look at CSM, DE, TAU, etc...

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I think if you are looking to the future of primaris simple look at AOS sigmarines. I suspect that they will update primaris along the same lines. So once SOB drop next year we are going to get a new SM codex soon after with a lot of new primaris models. Eventually, they will have an entire range with everything you like from regular SM just in better scale

Is there a precedent for a second codex for the same faction within the same WH40K edition?

7th did this a lot, look at CSM, DE, TAU, etc...

I don't think any of those got a new codex did they? but I know Space Wolves got the Wulfen edition of their codex when the wulfen came out, so yeah there is precident.

Not sure how I'd feel about a new SM codex. If 8th edition is going to be a 'living rule set' then I suppose it could happen, assuming the rules evolve without invalidating existing codexes.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I think if you are looking to the future of primaris simple look at AOS sigmarines. I suspect that they will update primaris along the same lines. So once SOB drop next year we are going to get a new SM codex soon after with a lot of new primaris models. Eventually, they will have an entire range with everything you like from regular SM just in better scale

Is there a precedent for a second codex for the same faction within the same WH40K edition?

7th did this a lot, look at CSM, DE, TAU, etc...

I don't think any of those got a new codex did they? but I know Space Wolves got the Wulfen edition of their codex when the wulfen came out, so yeah there is precident.

You mean a seperate codex from the 1st right? like the DE coven book and DE book?

Or you mean a redo of the codex? Well Eldar did, they were the only ones, but 6th was only 25months

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Count as only goes so far when competetive goes and TLoS gets involved. I recall a topic back in 5th where someone was talking about their old metal Terminators and a new player not believing they were valid models due to being smaller than the current kit. So eventually we'd see everything go full Primaris.

That said, Primaris are lacking a good melee option. Sure they can do a decent punch up (a 10 man Intercessor Squad gets 21 attacks after all), but they don't have a good unit for just tearing something apart. If Reivers got a -1 AP on their knife they'd fill that role, but for the moment I see them more as a harrassment unit that runs around with their guns and peppers back line units while Batmaning about the table.

I'm in favor of Reivers getting an alternate build with Stalker Bolt Rifles instead of Carbines.

That could be cool. Elite sneaky sniper Marines with spooky skull masks seem cool to me.

Agreed but GW seem to have a pathological aversion to full marines in 40k having sniper rifles.

And Stalkers for some bizarre reason are not sniper weapons.

 Crimson wrote:
And Stalkers for some bizarre reason are not sniper weapons.

glafd I'm not the only one annoyed by that. it woulda make the stalker config of inceptors AMAZING.

Primaris apparently did not sell as well as GW expected and that has slowed any further roll out. They are still coming as the work on them has been done but who knows when or if changes are being made first.

Anecdotally in my area at least normal marines still out sell Primaris by a pretty large margin.

SeanDrake wrote:
Primaris apparently did not sell as well as GW expected and that has slowed any further roll out. They are still coming as the work on them has been done but who knows when or if changes are being made first.

Did you get that info from a GW employee?

Hopefully none. Primaris Marines are cool models but their fluff is garbage and are some of the weakest additions to 40k.

I don’t get the level of primaris hate fluffwise. I know it’s not the best but it’s hardly game breaking, people were happy marines kept getting new tanks and plains and guns but new marines is a massive no no. It’s not like it just happened, it was supposed to be going on for 10000 years. That’s a long time. I think they could’ve done more about some chapters refusing them or being unhappy but that wouldn’t have made sense marketing wise as they were supposed to sell to existing marine players and you would be pretty upset if your beloved chapter couldn’t get it’s hands in new stuff. Old marines were done. They had milked every idea out of them. No more money to be made there.

As for primaris not being a success I don’t see that at all. The financials show 8th being a great success and that was launched with primaris, also anecdotally I sell painted miniatures and the primaris ones still sel, faster than any others I’ve done.

I’d settle for primaris going in normal transport and vice versa at the moment, I just want to put terminators in my repulsor.

Andykp wrote:
I don’t get the level of primaris hate fluffwise. I know it’s not the best but it’s hardly game breaking, people were happy marines kept getting new tanks and plains and guns but new marines is a massive no no. It’s not like it just happened, it was supposed to be going on for 10000 years. That’s a long time. I think they could’ve done more about some chapters refusing them or being unhappy but that wouldn’t have made sense marketing wise as they were supposed to sell to existing marine players and you would be pretty upset if your beloved chapter couldn’t get it’s hands in new stuff. Old marines were done. They had milked every idea out of them. No more money to be made there.

As for primaris not being a success I don’t see that at all. The financials show 8th being a great success and that was launched with primaris, also anecdotally I sell painted miniatures and the primaris ones still sel, faster than any others I’ve done.

I dislike it because it's lazy writing. I had actually enjoyed that they moved the story along a bit when they first did the End Times trilogy for 40k and was glad they handled it a lot better than Fantasy. My issue going forward is if anything the Imperium seems to suddenly be fundamentally written in a different manor. Primaris Marines are marines plus 1 who some how fix any flaw the various chapters had because Cawl does science better than the emperor could do. I'm a marine playing for over a decade and I just find this to the most boring and uninspired thing GW could have done.

Primaris-scale Emperor’s Champion. I’d buy one!

 Brother Castor wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I think if you are looking to the future of primaris simple look at AOS sigmarines. I suspect that they will update primaris along the same lines. So once SOB drop next year we are going to get a new SM codex soon after with a lot of new primaris models. Eventually, they will have an entire range with everything you like from regular SM just in better scale

Is there a precedent for a second codex for the same faction within the same WH40K edition?

Some folks mentioned others but they forgot that CSM got two codexes in 3rd.

Less cheekily, if the rumors of 8th being a living edition being true, we should be seeing new army lists/codexes going forward. Perhaps via campaigns (giving us story and allowing them to do a double update) or via new codexes that replace the existing ones. Or perhaps the first leading to the latter.

Either way we'll need to see what they do going forward. Maybe we'll just get a Codex: Primaris Astartes or something.

On a different note, I've been reading Dark Imperium and a couple things in there really need models/options on the table:
-Lts in Inceptor armour (which should translate to Captains in the same) as an option
-While not in the story, Lts in Gravis armour should be a thing too
-It's left vague, but it seems there may be more versions of armour that we haven't seen yet for MkX
-Lore wise it seems that there a number of Primaris who remember the old Imperium (Felix was 13 when he was taken to become a Primaris, others who aren't seen may have been older as they were able to confidently describe the way the UItramar system worked to planetary govenors, convincing them to rejoin the 500 world, something most kids wouldn't be able to do, hinting that some Marines (or at least inductees who hadn't completed the implantation process and would benefit from the enhanced memory said implants would give them as their training back then would have included more governmental affairs because Guilliman), and I feel like this should be expanded on more because I see a great dynamic as those old Imperium members are tested by what the Imperium has become (and might be what leads to some falling: they can't stand the new Imperium and what it's done to the one they used to know).


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SeanDrake wrote:
Primaris apparently did not sell as well as GW expected and that has slowed any further roll out. They are still coming as the work on them has been done but who knows when or if changes are being made first.

Anecdotally in my area at least normal marines still out sell Primaris by a pretty large margin.

If true it's likely because of how limited the range was at start and how few options people had. We're slowly seeing more options added to the army, but it's not something that will be fixed overnight.

That said, I'm using them to build 4th Company Imperial Fists (lead by a Captain I'm fluffing up to be someone who remembers seeing the VIIth Legion and Dorn before he was given over to Cawl instead (I want to say he barely survived the Iron Cage (thanks to the Primaris upgrade), but I haven't nailed down if they could remake regular Marines into Primaris Marines yet (though it sounds like the studio wants to Primaris some of the characters to keep them around) but if not he'll have been an aspirant that was effectively "tithed" to Cawl when the legion split) so the bolter heavy and kind of limited options fits the theme I've got in my head for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Hopefully none. Primaris Marines are cool models but their fluff is garbage and are some of the weakest additions to 40k.

Oh my sweet summer child.

40k is full of a lot of bad lore, but the Primaris aren't even close to the worst the game has had in the past. It's incomplete due to still being in the stage of being built up and expanded on, but it's a far better solution for the Marines than "we've always had this and used it, but not anywhere you could see it, also enjoy our changed lore that makes this new thing in the codex more important than the original units in the old lore".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I dislike it because it's lazy writing. I had actually enjoyed that they moved the story along a bit when they first did the End Times trilogy for 40k and was glad they handled it a lot better than Fantasy. My issue going forward is if anything the Imperium seems to suddenly be fundamentally written in a different manor. Primaris Marines are marines plus 1 who some how fix any flaw the various chapters had because Cawl does science better than the emperor could do. I'm a marine playing for over a decade and I just find this to the most boring and uninspired thing GW could have done.

Lazy writing was all the "we've always had these" nonsense we've put up with for decades.

Primaris bring the ideals of the old Imperium into conflict with the modern Imperium. They're literally displaced from everything they knew and have to come to terms to a drastically different Imperium and watch a Primarch try and pull it back from the brink while the whole thing seems to want to rush over the edge faster than ever.

Giving back the implants came from having a purer geneseed to work with, and even the Space Marines were just an upgrade on what came before it. Custodes were replaced as the Emperor's main fighting force by Thunder Warriors who were replaced by Marines, who are being replaced by Primaris. One of the Primaris upgrades is literally a Primarch organ (likely where they get the name from) and another is likely a Mechanicum body upgrade being applied to the Marines (sinew coils), the only thing Cawl did new was give the Furnace to the Marines which kickstarts their healing factor to improve their chances to not die. And considering Cawl is the guy who did brain surgery on himself during the Heresy to make himself smarter (and basically devoured the knowledge of his old teacher when she went traitor), his knowledge isn't too far out there (especially if he's been devouring the knowledge of rival Magi over the last 10k years).

Not exactly "doing everything the Emperor did, but better". It's one truly new implant, one Primarch organ and one bit he likely nicked from the Mechanicum's vaults for making better Mechanicum soldiers.

Basically, in a nutshell, they took the background of Legions/Chapters and sharted on it with Cawl - stale line of products, which happens to be their poster boy, but they know full well they won't get away with Centurion shenanigans again.

A spacemarine in a spacemarine.

I think you will absolutely see a Primaris Codex at some point. Firstly, there will be nothing but Primaris kits in the future, so GW won't want 10-15-20 new kits out there without a codex.

Secondly, we can all admit Marines are pretty crap/weak at the moment, right? Well that puts GW in the cat-bird seat, whether intentional or not. How do you boost sales of the new line of models while slowly reducing the sales of the old marine models?

A Primaris Codex could be the perfect solution. New units or some revised rules and suddenly Primaris become the better option by a mile. It may seem somewhat bizarre to current players, but think about players brand new to the game. A salesman basically saying "These are the current marines, but you can still buy these older, smaller, weaker marines if you want.".

It puts GW in a perfect position to accomplish a couple different goals.

Yeah, I'm a fan of the new dudes, but I refuse to mix them with my Salamanders. I've a complete Battle Company of Primaris, mostly painted but even I think the fluff out-Herods Herod. It jumps so many sharks it's ridiculous. And the worst, worst thing about it is it skipped the entire interesting struggle. The Indomitus Crusade is actually over, for goodness sake. We never see these guys develop. We've lost scope to do a Grey Shields force, which might have been interesting. Primaris just arrived fully formed in a trumpet blast of Deus ex Machina half-assedness.

I just want slightly better offense. Give Reivers AP-1 on their blades, Intercessors and Hellblasters get Heavy Bolt Pistols standard, etc.

SeanDrake wrote:
Primaris apparently did not sell as well as GW expected and that has slowed any further roll out. They are still coming as the work on them has been done but who knows when or if changes are being made first.

Anecdotally in my area at least normal marines still out sell Primaris by a pretty large margin.

I've heard this befiore but there's simply no evidance for it. the record sales since 8th edition launches suggests otherwise

 Elbows wrote:

Secondly, we can all admit Marines are pretty crap/weak at the moment, right?

Uh.. no? They're fine. Arguably better than Primaris most of the time.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

Secondly, we can all admit Marines are pretty crap/weak at the moment, right?

Uh.. no? They're fine. Arguably better than Primaris most of the time.

Only in your area, dude.

BrianDavion wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
Primaris apparently did not sell as well as GW expected and that has slowed any further roll out. They are still coming as the work on them has been done but who knows when or if changes are being made first.

Anecdotally in my area at least normal marines still out sell Primaris by a pretty large margin.

I've heard this befiore but there's simply no evidance for it. the record sales since 8th edition launches suggests otherwise

Not saying you're wrong or anything, but record profits does not equal record sales. Especially when sales include all GW product, most particularly Indexes and printed material which you can make a fortune on for very little outlay.

Banville wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
Primaris apparently did not sell as well as GW expected and that has slowed any further roll out. They are still coming as the work on them has been done but who knows when or if changes are being made first.

Anecdotally in my area at least normal marines still out sell Primaris by a pretty large margin.

I've heard this befiore but there's simply no evidance for it. the record sales since 8th edition launches suggests otherwise

Not saying you're wrong or anything, but record profits does not equal record sales. Especially when sales include all GW product, most particularly Indexes and printed material which you can make a fortune on for very little outlay.

no this is true, but the idea that primaris marines have been a colossal dissappointment is something I don't hear a lot of evidance for, and it's usealy a "rumor" advanced by people who hate the primaris so..

I don't think Primaris have hit a sales point where they're completely replacing old Marines but it seems clear GW was being careful not to do this.

BrianDavion wrote:

Banville wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
Primaris apparently did not sell as well as GW expected and that has slowed any further roll out. They are still coming as the work on them has been done but who knows when or if changes are being made first.

Anecdotally in my area at least normal marines still out sell Primaris by a pretty large margin.

I've heard this befiore but there's simply no evidance for it. the record sales since 8th edition launches suggests otherwise

Not saying you're wrong or anything, but record profits does not equal record sales. Especially when sales include all GW product, most particularly Indexes and printed material which you can make a fortune on for very little outlay.

it's usealy a "rumor" advanced by people who hate the primaris so..

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

Secondly, we can all admit Marines are pretty crap/weak at the moment, right?

Uh.. no? They're fine. Arguably better than Primaris most of the time.

Only in your area, dude.

Not every marine player whines as much as some of the crowd here on dakka.

Last I'd heard and I think the issue is more GW compairing apples and oranges.
They are compairing sales growth of primaris against Stormcast but current storm cast sales growth as AoS has had what looks like from a 40k players perspective a bucket load of Sigmarine releases which are power creeping along with each release.

Primaris as a pure army don't work and they look terrible along side non primaris units, in my opinion.

I think primaris will come but I think the expectation on GW's side was a little optimistic.
It feels like deathguard got a lot more new releases compaired to Primaris.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t get the level of primaris hate fluffwise. I know it’s not the best but it’s hardly game breaking, people were happy marines kept getting new tanks and plains and guns but new marines is a massive no no. It’s not like it just happened, it was supposed to be going on for 10000 years. That’s a long time. I think they could’ve done more about some chapters refusing them or being unhappy but that wouldn’t have made sense marketing wise as they were supposed to sell to existing marine players and you would be pretty upset if your beloved chapter couldn’t get it’s hands in new stuff. Old marines were done. They had milked every idea out of them. No more money to be made there.

As for primaris not being a success I don’t see that at all. The financials show 8th being a great success and that was launched with primaris, also anecdotally I sell painted miniatures and the primaris ones still sel, faster than any others I’ve done.

I dislike it because it's lazy writing. I had actually enjoyed that they moved the story along a bit when they first did the End Times trilogy for 40k and was glad they handled it a lot better than Fantasy. My issue going forward is if anything the Imperium seems to suddenly be fundamentally written in a different manor. Primaris Marines are marines plus 1 who some how fix any flaw the various chapters had because Cawl does science better than the emperor could do. I'm a marine playing for over a decade and I just find this to the most boring and uninspired thing GW could have done.

Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour? I’m with the others. This isn’t as lazy as the whole “you’ve had it all along” stuff from before. Maybe the emperor would’ve come up with them or better but he got stuck in the throne so couldn’t.

I love the models. Had a lot a dark angels before and never had a problem with the scale of them but after seeing primaris I couldn’t Unser my big headed old marines so they had to go.

Not having read the entire thread, I think Primaris are a lot more appealing in Death Watch than in a regular mono-build, because being able to put some padding around Aggressors and HellBlasters makes them feel a lot more viable and the bonuses for including an Inceptor and a Reiver (and Shock Grenades...) help them a lot at close range. Special Issue Ammunition doesn't hurt anything either.

What I'd like to see is some of that ported over to vanilla marines. Being able to add an Aggressor, a couple of HellBlasters, and giving the serg the option to take Shock Grenades would help Primaris a lot in a mono-build.

I'd also like to see another weapon option or two for the Hellblasters. Probably based on the Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer.

Beyond that I really think all the special, heavy, and melee weapons need to be reduced to Guard prices for Marines. Yes they're better in the hands of a Marine, but we're already paying for everything that makes that true when we spend three times as much on a base Marine. (That goes for vehicles too.) And basic marines kinda need the Autocannon back.

I know the thread is about Primaris, but this relates to them since even if they could pad Aggressors and Hellblasters and all that jazz Primaris still don't have much capability to knock down hard targets. They're counting on their more ordinary brethren to bring the big guns for those targets while they bring the dakka for the hordes in that set up.

Ice_can wrote:
Last I'd heard and I think the issue is more GW compairing apples and oranges.
They are compairing sales growth of primaris against Stormcast but current storm cast sales growth as AoS has had what looks like from a 40k players perspective a bucket load of Sigmarine releases which are power creeping along with each release.

Primaris as a pure army don't work and they look terrible along side non primaris units, in my opinion.

I think primaris will come but I think the expectation on GW's side was a little optimistic.
It feels like deathguard got a lot more new releases compaired to Primaris.

I feel like the similarities between primaris and stormcast are pretty apt. Primaris seem like they're where stormcast were originally - a few units that are sort of cool but nothing with a real wow factor that build a somewhat limited list by themselves.

I personally didn't care for stormcast until Soul War came out, the new design of the releases with more robe/tabards to really give a feeling of movement to the minis helped a lot.

I think maybe something similar might help primaris. Have something like an angels release (Blood or Dark) to make some new primaris with more details, more cool bits and a broader range of units. I mean maybe the answer isn't as simple as 'just add robes' but those seem like they're big chapters that get a lot of love. Certainly they could do the same for Salamanders or Iron Hands, but I doubt they'd pick one of those chapters.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Last I'd heard and I think the issue is more GW compairing apples and oranges.
They are compairing sales growth of primaris against Stormcast but current storm cast sales growth as AoS has had what looks like from a 40k players perspective a bucket load of Sigmarine releases which are power creeping along with each release.

Primaris as a pure army don't work and they look terrible along side non primaris units, in my opinion.

I think primaris will come but I think the expectation on GW's side was a little optimistic.
It feels like deathguard got a lot more new releases compaired to Primaris.

I feel like the similarities between primaris and stormcast are pretty apt. Primaris seem like they're where stormcast were originally - a few units that are sort of cool but nothing with a real wow factor that build a somewhat limited list by themselves.

I personally didn't care for stormcast until Soul War came out, the new design of the releases with more robe/tabards to really give a feeling of movement to the minis helped a lot.

I think maybe something similar might help primaris. Have something like an angels release (Blood or Dark) to make some new primaris with more details, more cool bits and a broader range of units. I mean maybe the answer isn't as simple s 'just add robes' but those seem like they're big chapters that get a lot of love. Certainly they could do the same for Salamanders or Iron Hands, but I doubt they'd pick one of those chapters.

on the other hand a common complaint about the old skool marines was "too much bling" so...

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Never take what BOLS says to heart, wait till actual details comes out, bols is just a clickbate website with a few people that like warhammer.

Yeah BOLS has very little information that is useful lately.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Last I'd heard and I think the issue is more GW compairing apples and oranges.
They are compairing sales growth of primaris against Stormcast but current storm cast sales growth as AoS has had what looks like from a 40k players perspective a bucket load of Sigmarine releases which are power creeping along with each release.

Primaris as a pure army don't work and they look terrible along side non primaris units, in my opinion.

I think primaris will come but I think the expectation on GW's side was a little optimistic.
It feels like deathguard got a lot more new releases compaired to Primaris.

I feel like the similarities between primaris and stormcast are pretty apt. Primaris seem like they're where stormcast were originally - a few units that are sort of cool but nothing with a real wow factor that build a somewhat limited list by themselves.

I personally didn't care for stormcast until Soul War came out, the new design of the releases with more robe/tabards to really give a feeling of movement to the minis helped a lot.

I think maybe something similar might help primaris. Have something like an angels release (Blood or Dark) to make some new primaris with more details, more cool bits and a broader range of units. I mean maybe the answer isn't as simple s 'just add robes' but those seem like they're big chapters that get a lot of love. Certainly they could do the same for Salamanders or Iron Hands, but I doubt they'd pick one of those chapters.

on the other hand a common complaint about the old skool marines was "too much bling" so...

Fair point, but I think there's a midground between too plain and skull on skulls. It's a matter of capturing the right aesthetic.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Last I'd heard and I think the issue is more GW compairing apples and oranges.
They are compairing sales growth of primaris against Stormcast but current storm cast sales growth as AoS has had what looks like from a 40k players perspective a bucket load of Sigmarine releases which are power creeping along with each release.

Primaris as a pure army don't work and they look terrible along side non primaris units, in my opinion.

I think primaris will come but I think the expectation on GW's side was a little optimistic.
It feels like deathguard got a lot more new releases compaired to Primaris.

I feel like the similarities between primaris and stormcast are pretty apt. Primaris seem like they're where stormcast were originally - a few units that are sort of cool but nothing with a real wow factor that build a somewhat limited list by themselves.

I personally didn't care for stormcast until Soul War came out, the new design of the releases with more robe/tabards to really give a feeling of movement to the minis helped a lot.

I think maybe something similar might help primaris. Have something like an angels release (Blood or Dark) to make some new primaris with more details, more cool bits and a broader range of units. I mean maybe the answer isn't as simple s 'just add robes' but those seem like they're big chapters that get a lot of love. Certainly they could do the same for Salamanders or Iron Hands, but I doubt they'd pick one of those chapters.

on the other hand a common complaint about the old skool marines was "too much bling" so...

Hence why I stick with older Mk armor. I don't like the Aquila on everyone's chest to be frank.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Basically, in a nutshell, they took the background of Legions/Chapters and sharted on it with Cawl - stale line of products, which happens to be their poster boy, but they know full well they won't get away with Centurion shenanigans again.

A spacemarine in a spacemarine.

I think the ocean needs it's salt back.

Space Marines are Space Marines, but at the same time when you start putting Primarch bits into them they become something more than just a Space Marine. I think this was the reason they went with the "Primaris" moniker, to link them to "Primarch".

I cracked through 2/3 of the Dark Imperium last night and where the Primaris show up I'm not seeing something awful (yet?). I'd at least give it a read to get a feel for them in a setting before cracking on about how awful they and Cawl are. Well that and to rip that bandage off and get over being saltier than the dead sea that GW is moving the setting from being landlocked in "11:59:59.999 to midnight" with dozens of events stacked atop each other and making Chaos a credible threat again, making the Imperium moving forward while still hanging over the brink and giving us a tech heretic (seriously, Cawl the Lesser is some serious heresy, much less what Cawl has done to his own mind) to potentially screw things up worse in the future.

The codex and the rulebook always provided the framework of a setting with just enough information to give that setting context, but the actual lore has always been more in the hands of the Black Library than the main studio (though the main studio gets finally say on what they acknowledge and ignore). Right now we have two or three books with Primaris marines (Dark Imperium, the Dark Angels one and ????), and while that isn't enough to really establish them in the setting compared to long running staples , it's not like they're heralding in any massive shift towards a brighter and happier Imperium. Things are somehow even worse than before despite the upgrades on these guys over the old line of Astartes and there is a definite tone of dissatisfaction with the Imperium held by those who can still remember the old Imperium, meaning that we have a plot element that could lead to Primaris Renegades in the future as well as more room to fit story elements into the current time line without stacking the deck even higher on the last possible second in M40.999

If you still don't like them after digging into their lore (instead of latching onto internet hyperbole about their fit into the game and the setting), cool. But doing some actual reading and looking past the barebones framework is part of learning about any faction in this game. As such I highly recommend people giving them a real chance instead of brushing them off as a waste of everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:
Yeah, I'm a fan of the new dudes, but I refuse to mix them with my Salamanders. I've a complete Battle Company of Primaris, mostly painted but even I think the fluff out-Herods Herod. It jumps so many sharks it's ridiculous. And the worst, worst thing about it is it skipped the entire interesting struggle. The Indomitus Crusade is actually over, for goodness sake. We never see these guys develop. We've lost scope to do a Grey Shields force, which might have been interesting. Primaris just arrived fully formed in a trumpet blast of Deus ex Machina half-assedness.

Skipping the Indomitus Crusade is a bit silly (then again GW skipped 10k years of events to include the Heresy back in the day, so one could see this as leaving room for the BL to step in and add events to the crusade without force feeding us propoganda style lore about how everyone is super best friends with the Primaris already), but the interesting struggle with Primaris is chapter by chapter intergration and I hear the Dark Angels book digs into that which is good.

I feel like as GW and the BL move forward the Primaris will feel more connected and organically part of the story than they do now. I think this is kind of like the Rogue Trader era of Primaris: they're new and not everything about them has been established yet meaning we still have room to see the idea become as fully formed as the other factions we're used to seeing in the setting.

Then again, considering gods muck with the setting on the regular, perhaps a Deus ex Machina is appropiate, especially when the Omnissiah is involved?

That's basically what I tell everyone with Cawl. He's not a Mary Sue whatsoever the single moment you go into his fluff. If anything he's kinda scary.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's basically what I tell everyone with Cawl. He's not a Mary Sue whatsoever the single moment you go into his fluff. If anything he's kinda scary.

The man gave himself brain surgery to improve his intelligence. This is followed by later absorbing the entirety of the knowledge of a senior Magos and her knowledge of cloning, meaning he doesn't just have everything he knows, but everything she knows too. I'd bet he won't stop at just her now that he's basically had a taste for eating the knowledge of others. If he devoured the knowledge of every Magos (and only the Magi as they're the only ones likely to be smart enough to be worth doing that to) that ever stood a major threat to him and his plans he'd basically be his own Forge World in terms of intellect (not to mention the amount of heresy rolling around in that mind would be scarier still).

He's a frikkin train wreck of tech heresy that only gets by because he knows how to keep his cards close to his chest and knows how to lie well enough that Guilliman can't do more than suspect him.

Cawl's inclusion in the modern lore is a suprise because he's new to us, but the Black Library have already been taking great care into making him a legitimate inclusion in the setting, and a walking time bomb of heretek proportions.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's basically what I tell everyone with Cawl. He's not a Mary Sue whatsoever the single moment you go into his fluff. If anything he's kinda scary.

The man gave himself brain surgery to improve his intelligence. This is followed by later absorbing the entirety of the knowledge of a senior Magos and her knowledge of cloning, meaning he doesn't just have everything he knows, but everything she knows too. I'd bet he won't stop at just her now that he's basically had a taste for eating the knowledge of others. If he devoured the knowledge of every Magos (and only the Magi as they're the only ones likely to be smart enough to be worth doing that to) that ever stood a major threat to him and his plans he'd basically be his own Forge World in terms of intellect (not to mention the amount of heresy rolling around in that mind would be scarier still).

He's a frikkin train wreck of tech heresy that only gets by because he knows how to keep his cards close to his chest and knows how to lie well enough that Guilliman can't do more than suspect him.

Cawl's inclusion in the modern lore is a suprise because he's new to us, but the Black Library have already been taking great care into making him a legitimate inclusion in the setting, and a walking time bomb of heretek proportions.

not onlky suspect but so far Cawl's managed to make himself USEFUL eneugh that getting ridda him is a bad thing, Cawl represents one of the little sacrifices Gulliman has had to make, and time will tell if it works out or blows up on him

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's basically what I tell everyone with Cawl. He's not a Mary Sue whatsoever the single moment you go into his fluff. If anything he's kinda scary.

The man gave himself brain surgery to improve his intelligence. This is followed by later absorbing the entirety of the knowledge of a senior Magos and her knowledge of cloning, meaning he doesn't just have everything he knows, but everything she knows too. I'd bet he won't stop at just her now that he's basically had a taste for eating the knowledge of others. If he devoured the knowledge of every Magos (and only the Magi as they're the only ones likely to be smart enough to be worth doing that to) that ever stood a major threat to him and his plans he'd basically be his own Forge World in terms of intellect (not to mention the amount of heresy rolling around in that mind would be scarier still).

He's a frikkin train wreck of tech heresy that only gets by because he knows how to keep his cards close to his chest and knows how to lie well enough that Guilliman can't do more than suspect him.

Cawl's inclusion in the modern lore is a suprise because he's new to us, but the Black Library have already been taking great care into making him a legitimate inclusion in the setting, and a walking time bomb of heretek proportions.

not onlky suspect but so far Cawl's managed to make himself USEFUL eneugh that getting ridda him is a bad thing, Cawl represents one of the little sacrifices Gulliman has had to make, and time will tell if it works out or blows up on him

Guilliman's story so far seems to be made of dozens of little sacrifices that are piling up on him. Cawl is probably could form a pile all own his own of those.

And this all isn't to dismiss why people might be mad about Primaris (seriously though, it's been over a year now, maybe it's time to put down the cross and give them a chance), but rather to show that the lore is branching out beyond "LOOK HOW GREAT THE NEW STUFF IS!!!!one11!". The tensions for the new guys aren't even limited to chapters being unsure about the new kids, but the Primaris themselves being unsure about the new Imperium as much as they are about these chapters that are so dramatically different than the legions of old.

And tension will only build so long before we see some kind of conflict. Maybe the BL will be the source of handling all of this, maybe it'll be a campaign, or something to do with a Primarch returning and dividing loyalties further when they side against Guilliman due to how he seems to be emulating the Emperor every step he takes.

On a serious note I would like to see a plain Jane grav Rhino-esque transport, maybe only 1 Gatling Cannon...

Actually about these Gatling Cannon weapons, that is what I want more of from P-Marines! Maybe a bolter version, Heavy6 S4 AP1? Give it to Intercessor Squads in the Primaris Codex. Call it a Gatling Bolter. Hell, give me a squad of Heavy Support Marines who pack Gatling Cannons and I'll be in heaven!

Other than that I guess I just want an updated SM line that has the Primaris aesthetic, maaaybe even a new armour mark just to give us some flavour?

 darkcloak wrote:
On a serious note I would like to see a plain Jane grav Rhino-esque transport, maybe only 1 Gatling Cannon...

Actually about these Gatling Cannon weapons, that is what I want more of from P-Marines! Maybe a bolter version, Heavy6 S4 AP1? Give it to Intercessor Squads in the Primaris Codex. Call it a Gatling Bolter. Hell, give me a squad of Heavy Support Marines who pack Gatling Cannons and I'll be in heaven!

Other than that I guess I just want an updated SM line that has the Primaris aesthetic, maaaybe even a new armour mark just to give us some flavour?

Actually the Gatling Cannon idea sounds neat. I mean HH had the Rotor Cannon filling a similar role so it could be a viable move for the Primaris since they seem to be a copy of the old Legions in concept.

I really like the Gatling Cannon platform. I think it should be an outright replacement for the Heavy Bolter and the Assault Cannon in the new SM line. You could have a light, medium and heavy version, maybe even give PMs access to the Heavy Gatling Cannon as a sort of Thunderfire platform. Have those reclusive PM Techmarines man it!

Oh yeah, I forgot, it's the Onslaught Gatling Cannon... Hey GW! Moar Onslaught Gatling Cannons!!

I'm confident that we'll see more Primaris releases next year. I don't think the line has been a failure, just a slow adoption - there's a considerable number of 40K players (coming back) who have no need to buy into what is essentially presented as a new (sub)army.

I do hope GW will wise up an allow regular SM Terminators in the Repulsor, and let Primaris in the Rhino and Land Raiders (officially, I'm already doing it in my games).

As I did state before, I agree they need access to some sort of bikes. I'm confused why they didn't make Gravis armor simply be Terminator armor, but they could use a Terminatoresque unit.

I'm always a fan of vehicles, and with the Primaris Repulsor essentially being a take on the Razorback*, I'd like to see what their equivalent of a Land Raider might be (NOT the FW tank, though).

* If I were to compare it to modern vehicles, I'd say its a take on the Bradley AFV (or it's British equivilant), like the Rhino was a take on a M113.

Right, let's see what holes are in the Primaris 'list', then. (By the way, I'd absolutely love to see some of the Ultima Founding chapters rebel against what the Imperium has become. Not against humanity or the Emperor but against the High Lords)

Anti horde? Aggressors.
Anti armour? Hellblasters, Repulsors, Dreads. (All expensive options)
Anti elite infantry? Hellblasters, Dreads, Repulsors. Inceptors.
Board Control? Reivers. Inceptors.
Assault troops? None really. Unless you count Reivers (Limp-wristed) or Aggressors (not enough attacks) Dreads (not enough attacks)
Transport? Severely lacking.
Artillery? None.
Air support? None.

So, I'd like to see an APC, some sort of Basilisk equivalent. And an attack chopper/strike fighter.

Also, rule of cool demands what other people have been saying, an entire unit armed with rotor cannons. It worked for the legions. Their motto could be, 'I ain't got time to bleed.'

Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I'd like to see heavy options for troops, grav-bikes, a cheap transport, an actual CC unit that can do anything except punch GEQs, etc. There's a lot of new ground for them to cover, and currently the big new reboot of 40k's central faction has been treading water for over a year.

(None of this is to comment on what is 'right' or 'fair' in comparison to the neglected factions - just a comment upon GW's reboot of the flagship faction of their flagship game.)

I know people often comment on bikes being something they want, but doe Primaris Marines really NEED Bikes? I've always felt the interceptor squad is more a Primaris Bike equivilant then a Primaris Assault squad equivilant. when you stop looking at the jet pack and just focus on what it can do you'll see what I mean

BrianDavion wrote:
I know people often comment on bikes being something they want, but doe Primaris Marines really NEED Bikes? I've always felt the interceptor squad is more a Primaris Bike equivilant then a Primaris Assault squad equivilant. when you stop looking at the jet pack and just focus on what it can do you'll see what I mean

Agreed. I'd like to see more Inceptor loadouts, including melee ones. Personally I'd love a power lance and storm shield, I think that would look super badass.

Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I know people often comment on bikes being something they want, but doe Primaris Marines really NEED Bikes? I've always felt the interceptor squad is more a Primaris Bike equivilant then a Primaris Assault squad equivilant. when you stop looking at the jet pack and just focus on what it can do you'll see what I mean

Agreed. I'd like to see more Inceptor loadouts, including melee ones. Personally I'd love a power lance and storm shield, I think that would look super badass.

I definatly think a storm shield and some kind of power weapon would be the way to go. it'd be pretty limited in use by and alrge due to lack of mobility but it'd look nice and proably be handy in the right situation.

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I'd like to see heavy options for troops, grav-bikes, a cheap transport, an actual CC unit that can do anything except punch GEQs, etc. There's a lot of new ground for them to cover, and currently the big new reboot of 40k's central faction has been treading water for over a year.

(None of this is to comment on what is 'right' or 'fair' in comparison to the neglected factions - just a comment upon GW's reboot of the flagship faction of their flagship game.)

I agree. That's why I was wondering about sales figures. The whole thing smacks of one of three things: slow sales, it was 'someone else's baby' and that person is no longer driving things, or they went off half-cocked and have no idea where to go now.

I really hope we get some get some new units with the Space Wolf release. I really like the Primaris models and I've been building a full pure army of them (as old marines look stupid next to them,) but the line being so limited is a problem.

Banville wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I'd like to see heavy options for troops, grav-bikes, a cheap transport, an actual CC unit that can do anything except punch GEQs, etc. There's a lot of new ground for them to cover, and currently the big new reboot of 40k's central faction has been treading water for over a year.

(None of this is to comment on what is 'right' or 'fair' in comparison to the neglected factions - just a comment upon GW's reboot of the flagship faction of their flagship game.)

I agree. That's why I was wondering about sales figures. The whole thing smacks of one of three things: slow sales, it was 'someone else's baby' and that person is no longer driving things, or they went off half-cocked and have no idea where to go now.

How GW haven't understood what almost everyone who plays the game with any intention of winning knows.
If a model as sucky rules it's rarely going to get played, look at how quickly certain units have gone out of stock when the get good rules. But the new hitness with pants rules sits on the store shelf for months.
The problem with the above is the 40K design team don't seem to understand why units do or don't work. So thet can't even right the rules to boost sales.
Like seriously 20+ points for an intercessor without weapons?
They still arn't exactlly competitive at their CA discount of 18points the Kill team designers had to reduce them to 15 points.
Also currently they lack a numver of options that old marines have so to make a marine army work you need both sizes or pure old marines. Most marine players are going to have masses of old marines or plenty available second hand so why pay GW prices for new units that are lack luster on the table top?

Stormcast always seem to be in competitive settings for AoS hence why they are seeing sales growth as AoS expands.

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I

you're forgetting rievers and redemptor dreadnoughts,

not including what we got in DI, Primaris got Reivers, agressors, a redeptor dreadnought, and 6 independant characters (counting the dark angel and blood angels Lts here)

Deathguard meanwhile got death shroud terminators, Blightlord Terminators, Myphitic Blight Haulers, Plague Burst Crawlers, and 7 characters (one of whom was Mortarian, Primaris Marines where planned and ready when Gulliman dropped so we can proably include Gulliman as the "vanguard" of Primaris Marines)


So.... pretty much the same number of units. meanwhile other armies with considerable new army drops this year have been Custodes with a grand total of 4 new kits one of which was an indepenant character, Necrons who got a single new HQ, and Imperial Knights with 4 new units (which let's face it is effectively two units that GW just put the weapon options for the varients in a seperate box)

So yeah I'm sorry but the idea that GW has abandoned primaris marines is laughable. Primaris Marines have gotten more new unit boxes then NEW ARMIES

BrianDavion wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I

you're forgetting rievers and redemptor dreadnoughts,

not including what we got in DI, Primaris got Reivers, agressors, a redeptor dreadnought, and 6 independant characters (counting the dark angel and blood angels Lts here)

Deathguard meanwhile got death shroud terminators, Blightlord Terminators, Myphitic Blight Haulers, Plague Burst Crawlers, and 7 characters (one of whom was Mortarian, Primaris Marines where planned and ready when Gulliman dropped so we can proably include Gulliman as the "vanguard" of Primaris Marines)


So.... pretty much the same number of units. meanwhile other armies with considerable new army drops this year have been Custodes with a grand total of 4 new kits one of which was an indepenant character, Necrons who got a single new HQ, and Imperial Knights with 4 new units (which let's face it is effectively two units that GW just put the weapon options for the varients in a seperate box)

So yeah I'm sorry but the idea that GW has abandoned primaris marines is laughable. Primaris Marines have gotten more new unit boxes then NEW ARMIES

Agree generally. Primaris got a bunch of kits. They'll get more I'm sure, but they've had loads of support.

And yeah, 18pt Intercessors still aren't very good... But they're still better than Tacs, so...

Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I

you're forgetting rievers and redemptor dreadnoughts,

not including what we got in DI, Primaris got Reivers, agressors, a redeptor dreadnought, and 6 independant characters (counting the dark angel and blood angels Lts here)

Deathguard meanwhile got death shroud terminators, Blightlord Terminators, Myphitic Blight Haulers, Plague Burst Crawlers, and 7 characters (one of whom was Mortarian, Primaris Marines where planned and ready when Gulliman dropped so we can proably include Gulliman as the "vanguard" of Primaris Marines)


So.... pretty much the same number of units. meanwhile other armies with considerable new army drops this year have been Custodes with a grand total of 4 new kits one of which was an indepenant character, Necrons who got a single new HQ, and Imperial Knights with 4 new units (which let's face it is effectively two units that GW just put the weapon options for the varients in a seperate box)

So yeah I'm sorry but the idea that GW has abandoned primaris marines is laughable. Primaris Marines have gotten more new unit boxes then NEW ARMIES

Agree generally. Primaris got a bunch of kits. They'll get more I'm sure, but they've had loads of support.

And yeah, 18pt Intercessors still aren't very good... But they're still better than Tags, so...

Yeah I don't get the idea that their deployment has been limited and "GW seems not to have much enthusism for it"

Looking at this year's 40k releases primaris marines basicly account for a full third of the model releases this year. if ANY other faction got that percentage of new models they'd be in cloud nine.

Things I would like:
A smaller APC that can fit a single 5-Man squad of Reavers, Intercessors, or Hellblasters. Have it be basically a Razorback equivalent. Perhaps with one of the Onslaught Cannons on the top.

Close Combat Inceptors.

ATV riding Intercessors with an Onslaught Cannon on their ATVs.

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Sarcasm?

Andykp wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t get the level of primaris hate fluffwise. I know it’s not the best but it’s hardly game breaking, people were happy marines kept getting new tanks and plains and guns but new marines is a massive no no. It’s not like it just happened, it was supposed to be going on for 10000 years. That’s a long time. I think they could’ve done more about some chapters refusing them or being unhappy but that wouldn’t have made sense marketing wise as they were supposed to sell to existing marine players and you would be pretty upset if your beloved chapter couldn’t get it’s hands in new stuff. Old marines were done. They had milked every idea out of them. No more money to be made there.

As for primaris not being a success I don’t see that at all. The financials show 8th being a great success and that was launched with primaris, also anecdotally I sell painted miniatures and the primaris ones still sel, faster than any others I’ve done.

I dislike it because it's lazy writing. I had actually enjoyed that they moved the story along a bit when they first did the End Times trilogy for 40k and was glad they handled it a lot better than Fantasy. My issue going forward is if anything the Imperium seems to suddenly be fundamentally written in a different manor. Primaris Marines are marines plus 1 who some how fix any flaw the various chapters had because Cawl does science better than the emperor could do. I'm a marine playing for over a decade and I just find this to the most boring and uninspired thing GW could have done.

Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour? I’m with the others. This isn’t as lazy as the whole “you’ve had it all along” stuff from before. Maybe the emperor would’ve come up with them or better but he got stuck in the throne so couldn’t.


I love the models. Had a lot a dark angels before and never had a problem with the scale of them but after seeing primaris I couldn’t Unser my big headed old marines so they had to go.

Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

 Crimson wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

No need to be so dramatic, it's just an opinion. I happen to agree with The Newman that they look awesome, I would definitely run them if they weren't horribly costed this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t get the level of primaris hate fluffwise. I know it’s not the best but it’s hardly game breaking, people were happy marines kept getting new tanks and plains and guns but new marines is a massive no no. It’s not like it just happened, it was supposed to be going on for 10000 years. That’s a long time. I think they could’ve done more about some chapters refusing them or being unhappy but that wouldn’t have made sense marketing wise as they were supposed to sell to existing marine players and you would be pretty upset if your beloved chapter couldn’t get it’s hands in new stuff. Old marines were done. They had milked every idea out of them. No more money to be made there.

As for primaris not being a success I don’t see that at all. The financials show 8th being a great success and that was launched with primaris, also anecdotally I sell painted miniatures and the primaris ones still sel, faster than any others I’ve done.

I dislike it because it's lazy writing. I had actually enjoyed that they moved the story along a bit when they first did the End Times trilogy for 40k and was glad they handled it a lot better than Fantasy. My issue going forward is if anything the Imperium seems to suddenly be fundamentally written in a different manor. Primaris Marines are marines plus 1 who some how fix any flaw the various chapters had because Cawl does science better than the emperor could do. I'm a marine playing for over a decade and I just find this to the most boring and uninspired thing GW could have done.

Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour? I’m with the others. This isn’t as lazy as the whole “you’ve had it all along” stuff from before. Maybe the emperor would’ve come up with them or better but he got stuck in the throne so couldn’t.


I love the models. Had a lot a dark angels before and never had a problem with the scale of them but after seeing primaris I couldn’t Unser my big headed old marines so they had to go.

Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

Lazy and boring again are your opinion. To me they are using it to do something much needed to shake things up and I'm loving the results. Primaris basically got me back into the game on their own.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

I've been reading the recent fluff, where is this hope coming from? The fanatics are emboldened by the rise of the son of their god, who doesn't believe his father to be a god and found out his father doesn't consider him his son. It's a morass of contradiction and loathing moving forward despite this due to the son's sense of duty.

The son has taken actions that would get anyone else in the galaxy censured by the inquisition, the mechanicus and the administratum and is grinding the corruption of the feudal imperium under an even heavier martial boot than they've endured in his absence. He has achieved this martial strength and his own life by embracing xenos and a massive heretech who's flatly lying to him but he has few other options to act on as the galaxy splits in half in front of him. And this is all earning him the true love and respect of... more or less no one because the people who like him consider him a deity and those he's supposed to be working through are having their entitlements threatened by a powerful central figure in government.

90% of the 'winning' of the imperium right now is "oh we're not dead yet" just like it's been for the last twenty years of this setting's existence.

The primaris certainly feel like a bit of an asspull, but they bring a lot of fun stupidity with them, like totally not traitor geneseed and I can't believe it's not loyalist implications on more or less all sides of their creation. They're men pulled from arbitrary points in the imperium's history, shoved into the easy bake primaris oven and then shoved into tech of questionable provenance to save an imperium that's a wild perversion of their ideals. There's wild possibilities to play with here, you know, like back before every type of marine had a codex and a model and a niche.

If there had been some kind of lead in, it may not have been all that bad, as it is appearing from whole cloth is plenty stretched, but it's not a bright future here, it's the seeds of the imperium falling apart completely the moment someone has leverage to question Gulli. You know, like the next primarch to show up, any of which are entirely likely to kick him in the nuts for having the gall he's had. And that's without considering the possibility of a failed crusade on his part, which is entirely possible given the fact that he was being lead by the dangly bits by chaos for a while there.

 Crimson wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

They seem like prototype Gravis armour in retrospect.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They seem like prototype Gravis armour in retrospect.

Well, Aggressors are the worst looking* Primaris unit, but they're still a massive improvement over Centurions!

(*It's really not the armour, it's the oversized mittens. I want Gravis guys with better looking weapon options.)

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They seem like prototype Gravis armour in retrospect.

Well, Aggressors are the worst looking* Primaris unit, but they're still a massive improvement over Centurions!

(*It's really not the armour, it's the oversized mittens. I want Gravis guys with better looking weapon options.)

I meant it being a kind of massive weapons platform that layers extra armour over the wearer.

I feel like Centurions would look better if their arm mounted guns were either eliminated, or shoulder mounted instead. As is they add a silly amount of bulk to the army and break up the lines on the arms too much.

The big mitts being power fists works for me. Powerfists have always looked a bit silly.

On a different note, the army's biggest issue is that there is no real melee option. Like you can throw some weight if you get dragged in, but basically the army is a kind of gunline (which works for my Imperial Fists but not so much for other armies), but if Space Wolves bring us melee oriented Primaris this could balance that out a bit.

I can definitely agree a lighter transport would be nice, especially if they finally pull the trigger on a Grav Rhino, but I disagree about just unlocking regular Marine options for transports (and vice versa). Primaris and old Marines are basically two different armies and the transport thing is a line in the sand that will further divide things and allow us to go forward with making the Primaris a full army on their own.

I wouldn't mind having cross-access to the vehicles, but I would definitely prefer more grav-based vehicles for Primaris. I think they should get grav-bikes too, to continue the theme.

Smaller, cheap grav transport which can carry six guys (or three gravis guys) would be ideal.

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't mind having cross-access to the vehicles, but I would definitely prefer more grav-based vehicles for Primaris. I think they should get grav-bikes too, to continue the theme.

Smaller, cheap grav transport which can carry six guys (or three gravis guys) would be ideal.

Grav bikes could come later, but they probably need a retool from being too much like Custodes or Space Marine bikes to fit some other niche on the table. Maybe as more of a hit and run melee unit ala the Eldar's style. That or we'll just get them when the marine bikes are given the squatting.

Actually instead of grav bikes, I'd argue they should get squads of Land Speeder style things that fill the same role as attack bikes but with heavier armour and weapons. It could even be a way to bring us a light transport to the army, ala Land Speeder Storm, but with a bit more bulk to it.

Like i said in 1st post, i want normal bikes so they force them to get better, they are completely garbage right now.

Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I don't think we're going to see Primaris Terminators to be honest. Gravis seems to be the Terminator replacement and unless GW pulls a surprise we're not going to see it.

That said, I feel like we still have room for a lot of stuff on the table and I look forward to seeing what comes next.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't think we're going to see Primaris Terminators to be honest. Gravis seems to be the Terminator replacement and unless GW pulls a surprise we're not going to see it.

That said, I feel like we still have room for a lot of stuff on the table and I look forward to seeing what comes next.

I disagree for two reasons.

Firstly I think the battlefield role of Terminators is actually very different to any Gravis we've seen. While they are both chunked up power armour, there's loads of design space still to have both.

Secondly, and I know this is a controversial point, I believe one day eventually Primaris will be the only type of Marine actively supported, and they'll want to preserve the iconic Terminator look in some way, just as Intercessors preserve the iconic Power Armour look in a modern form.

Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

No need to be so dramatic, it's just an opinion. I happen to agree with The Newman that they look awesome, I would definitely run them if they weren't horribly costed this edition.

They're Space Marine themed Hulk Busters. The other thing that fits that description is Dreadknights, those look hella stupid. I even prefer the arm cannons, I think they would look funny on the shoulders.

I've fielded them even with the point cost issues, they've done surprisingly good work for me. Auspex Scanner is kind of brutal on them, they're a lot of firepower in a small footprint.

The Newman wrote:

They're Space Marine themed Hulk Busters. The other thing that fits that description is Dreadknights, those look hella stupid. I even prefer the arm cannons, I think they would look funny on the shoulders.

That is why the look familiar, I think they look kinda cool, buy maybe not 40k enough, they feel more like something heresy era when people actually understood what tech was and it wasn't just blindly mistisized.

Primaris centurions with onslaught Cannons could be the anti horde weapon they need.
Though I really think the killer is they have no effective CC unit, and the Primaris Charictor options suck. You have these beat stick hero's with 0 appropriate wargear.

I think the current SM codex (with both regular and Primaris SM) offers a good selection of unique armour variants.

Compared to regular SM, Primaris get +1W and +1A.
Gravis armour gets Primaris +1T on top of that (with -1M).
Terminators get +1W, +1A, +1Ld and a 2+ save (with -1M).

Points values might still need further tweaking of course, but we have the CA mechanism for that.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

I've been reading the recent fluff, where is this hope coming from? The fanatics are emboldened by the rise of the son of their god, who doesn't believe his father to be a god and found out his father doesn't consider him his son. It's a morass of contradiction and loathing moving forward despite this due to the son's sense of duty.

The son has taken actions that would get anyone else in the galaxy censured by the inquisition, the mechanicus and the administratum and is grinding the corruption of the feudal imperium under an even heavier martial boot than they've endured in his absence. He has achieved this martial strength and his own life by embracing xenos and a massive heretech who's flatly lying to him but he has few other options to act on as the galaxy splits in half in front of him. And this is all earning him the true love and respect of... more or less no one because the people who like him consider him a deity and those he's supposed to be working through are having their entitlements threatened by a powerful central figure in government.

90% of the 'winning' of the imperium right now is "oh we're not dead yet" just like it's been for the last twenty years of this setting's existence.

The primaris certainly feel like a bit of an asspull, but they bring a lot of fun stupidity with them, like totally not traitor geneseed and I can't believe it's not loyalist implications on more or less all sides of their creation. They're men pulled from arbitrary points in the imperium's history, shoved into the easy bake primaris oven and then shoved into tech of questionable provenance to save an imperium that's a wild perversion of their ideals. There's wild possibilities to play with here, you know, like back before every type of marine had a codex and a model and a niche.

If there had been some kind of lead in, it may not have been all that bad, as it is appearing from whole cloth is plenty stretched, but it's not a bright future here, it's the seeds of the imperium falling apart completely the moment someone has leverage to question Gulli. You know, like the next primarch to show up, any of which are entirely likely to kick him in the nuts for having the gall he's had. And that's without considering the possibility of a failed crusade on his part, which is entirely possible given the fact that he was being lead by the dangly bits by chaos for a while there.

I've been re-reading gathering storm and there was a bit of a lead in, we just missed it. go re-read the GS books, paying close attention to the bits about Cawl with primaris marines in light, the hindsight makes it clear they where leading there from the rlease of GS1.

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Agreed. The Rhino was cheap enough to fit several in a list, and it was almost a requirement for armies that had them to take them.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Not in comparison to wave serpents etc.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Not in comparison to wave serpents etc.

Solid, not broken. The Wave Serpent was broken as feck and only got worse from 6th to 7th.

Rhinos were the reliable workhorse that got you across the table and protected your guys for a turn. Think of it as buying a mobile pillbox fortification.

I found them good for 50 points when I used Codex: Witch Hunters, and 35 points only made them better. The current cost hurts them too much and they've become a clear victim of the change to vehicles sadly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Not in comparison to wave serpents etc.

Solid, not broken. The Wave Serpent was broken as feck and only got worse from 6th to 7th.

Rhinos were the reliable workhorse that got you across the table and protected your guys for a turn. Think of it as buying a mobile pillbox fortification.

I found them good for 50 points when I used Codex: Witch Hunters, and 35 points only made them better. The current cost hurts them too much and they've become a clear victim of the change to vehicles sadly.

Nah, razorbacks should have been 10 man transport. I mean rhinos are now expensive as feth compared to 7th.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Not in comparison to wave serpents etc.

Best I can remember a wave serpent was roughly three times price of a rhino, had one exit and no fire points. Was it still a great pick for the army that could take it, yes it was. That doesn't mean the rhino was a bad transport.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Nah, razorbacks should have been 10 man transport, up its cost a bit and the rhino even cheaper. All it did was travel up the board 'slow as feth'. Apart from that it was a useless unit..

Funny, because using Rhinos helped win me games with my Sisters despite being "slow as feck". Or did no one else use the extra movement vehicles could have by going Flat Out and then popping smoke on turn 1?

It was a solid workhorse and could be used to protect units effectively. It wouldn't steam roll an army for you, but it was the cost of like 3 Marines and did it's actual job well.

It's current points costs just breaks it to be honest.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Not in comparison to wave serpents etc.

Best I can remember a wave serpent was roughly three times price of a rhino, had one exit and no fire points. Was it still a great pick for the army that could take it, yes it was. That doesn't mean the rhino was a bad transport.

I'd pay that price if it was that useful. Still cheap in comparison to a land raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Nah, razorbacks should have been 10 man transport, up its cost a bit and the rhino even cheaper. All it did was travel up the board 'slow as feth'. Apart from that it was a useless unit..

Funny, because using Rhinos helped win me games with my Sisters despite being "slow as feck". Or did no one else use the extra movement vehicles could have by going Flat Out and then popping smoke on turn 1?

It was a solid workhorse and could be used to protect units effectively. It wouldn't steam roll an army for you, but it was the cost of like 3 Marines and did it's actual job well.

It's current points costs just breaks it to be honest.

Which is my main point though, 70 pnts is so bloated, look at the pnts of razorbacks. As for sisters, they were invaluable but you don't play marines the same way really.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Not in comparison to wave serpents etc.

Best I can remember a wave serpent was roughly three times price of a rhino, had one exit and no fire points. Was it still a great pick for the army that could take it, yes it was. That doesn't mean the rhino was a bad transport.

I'd pay that price if it was that useful. Still cheap in comparison to a land raider.

I'll agree on that point, Land Raiders have been at best meh at worst garbage for a long time. A very expensive transport to bring one assault unit to bear.

I'd argue you play Salamanders the same way since they're just as focused on running short range shooting due to their bonuses at the time, but fair point I guess.

I've been reading through the Primaris Tactica, and while I've got pages left to go, one thing stands out to me: the army lacks proper anti-tank options.

Actually some other things than plasma for special/heavy weapons in general would be nice. I still vote for Volkite of course.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd argue you play Salamanders the same way since they're just as focused on running short range shooting due to their bonuses at the time, but fair point I guess.

I've been reading through the Primaris Tactica, and while I've got pages left to go, one thing stands out to me: the army lacks proper anti-tank options.

Actually some other things than plasma for special/heavy weapons in general would be nice. I still vote for Volkite of course.

I think the anti-tank stuff will come, SM's aren't Orks, we'll just have to wait I think, hope they come up with something cool though. I really hope they don't do away with devastators/long fangs though. Nothing cooler than a marine with a heavybolter etc.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd argue you play Salamanders the same way since they're just as focused on running short range shooting due to their bonuses at the time, but fair point I guess.

I've been reading through the Primaris Tactica, and while I've got pages left to go, one thing stands out to me: the army lacks proper anti-tank options.

Actually some other things than plasma for special/heavy weapons in general would be nice. I still vote for Volkite of course.

I think the anti-tank stuff will come, SM's aren't Orks, we'll just have to wait I think, hope they come up with something cool though. I really hope they don't do away with devastators/long fangs though. Nothing cooler than a marine with a heavybolter etc.

that and primaris marines are new. GW seems to be focusing more on new armies that need fleshing out (p[rimaris marines, custodes, etc) armies with a mature product line just aren't getting much. I can see the logic to it. the eldar may have fine cast for a lot of their aspect warriors but they HAVE them.

Don't forget that the Vanilla Marines are over 15? years old at this point. Many of the current staff probably weren't there during the creation of the marine, but have been during the creation of Primaris.

They'll be a lot more comfortable working in that design space (and can worry a lot less about offending lore buffs). And we can already see it happening with Space Wolves, with new Wulfen Dreadnoughts and more Primaris. I'll be surprised if we see new models and lore come out for the vanilla marines in the future.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Don't forget that the Vanilla Marines are over 15? years old at this point. Many of the current staff probably weren't there during the creation of the marine, but have been during the creation of Primaris.

They'll be a lot more comfortable working in that design space (and can worry a lot less about offending lore buffs). And we can already see it happening with Space Wolves, with new Wulfen Dreadnoughts and more Primaris. I'll be surprised if we see new models and lore come out for the vanilla marines in the future.

Wulfen Dreadnoughts are likely just an upgrade option for regular Dreadnoughts. Especially since the same regular Wolfy Dreadnought makes the Wulfen dreadnought character.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Don't forget that the Vanilla Marines are over 15? years old at this point. Many of the current staff probably weren't there during the creation of the marine, but have been during the creation of Primaris.

They'll be a lot more comfortable working in that design space (and can worry a lot less about offending lore buffs). And we can already see it happening with Space Wolves, with new Wulfen Dreadnoughts and more Primaris. I'll be surprised if we see new models and lore come out for the vanilla marines in the future.

What do you mean wulfen dreadnoughts, this is the first I've heard of this, do you mean murderfang?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Don't forget that the Vanilla Marines are over 15? years old at this point. Many of the current staff probably weren't there during the creation of the marine, but have been during the creation of Primaris.

They'll be a lot more comfortable working in that design space (and can worry a lot less about offending lore buffs). And we can already see it happening with Space Wolves, with new Wulfen Dreadnoughts and more Primaris. I'll be surprised if we see new models and lore come out for the vanilla marines in the future.

What do you mean wulfen dreadnoughts, this is the first I've heard of this, do you mean murderfang?

Warhammer Community Article Space Wolf codex goes on pre-order this week, releases the week after. Wulfen Dreads are now a standard part of the army and extend past ol' Murderfang.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Don't forget that the Vanilla Marines are over 15? years old at this point. Many of the current staff probably weren't there during the creation of the marine, but have been during the creation of Primaris.

They'll be a lot more comfortable working in that design space (and can worry a lot less about offending lore buffs). And we can already see it happening with Space Wolves, with new Wulfen Dreadnoughts and more Primaris. I'll be surprised if we see new models and lore come out for the vanilla marines in the future.

What do you mean wulfen dreadnoughts, this is the first I've heard of this, do you mean murderfang?

"As well as bringing Primaris Space Marines fully into the fold, the codex is packed with tweaks and improvements to every part of your army. There are even some brand-new datasheets, giving you never-seen-before options like Wulfen Dreadnoughts or Wolf Guard Terminators clad in Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern armour. We’ll be previewing the new codex throughout the next week with a closer look at what it means for you and your army, so stay tuned!"

It's down in the Codex Section of this post
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/12/coming-soon-new-models-and-a-new-battle-in-a-box/

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Don't forget that the Vanilla Marines are over 15? years old at this point. Many of the current staff probably weren't there during the creation of the marine, but have been during the creation of Primaris.

They'll be a lot more comfortable working in that design space (and can worry a lot less about offending lore buffs). And we can already see it happening with Space Wolves, with new Wulfen Dreadnoughts and more Primaris. I'll be surprised if we see new models and lore come out for the vanilla marines in the future.

What do you mean wulfen dreadnoughts, this is the first I've heard of this, do you mean murderfang?

"As well as bringing Primaris Space Marines fully into the fold, the codex is packed with tweaks and improvements to every part of your army. There are even some brand-new datasheets, giving you never-seen-before options like Wulfen Dreadnoughts or Wolf Guard Terminators clad in Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern armour. We’ll be previewing the new codex throughout the next week with a closer look at what it means for you and your army, so stay tuned!"

It's down in the Codex Section of this post
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/12/coming-soon-new-models-and-a-new-battle-in-a-box/

Brilliant, when is it being released?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Don't forget that the Vanilla Marines are over 15? years old at this point. Many of the current staff probably weren't there during the creation of the marine, but have been during the creation of Primaris.

They'll be a lot more comfortable working in that design space (and can worry a lot less about offending lore buffs). And we can already see it happening with Space Wolves, with new Wulfen Dreadnoughts and more Primaris. I'll be surprised if we see new models and lore come out for the vanilla marines in the future.

What do you mean wulfen dreadnoughts, this is the first I've heard of this, do you mean murderfang?

"As well as bringing Primaris Space Marines fully into the fold, the codex is packed with tweaks and improvements to every part of your army. There are even some brand-new datasheets, giving you never-seen-before options like Wulfen Dreadnoughts or Wolf Guard Terminators clad in Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern armour. We’ll be previewing the new codex throughout the next week with a closer look at what it means for you and your army, so stay tuned!"

It's down in the Codex Section of this post
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/12/coming-soon-new-models-and-a-new-battle-in-a-box/

Brilliant, when is it being released?

the 25th preorders on the 18th.

Leaked release is 25th Aug, Pre-orders next week

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Leaked release is 25th Aug, Pre-orders next week

Hope we see Russ.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Leaked release is 25th Aug, Pre-orders next week

Hope we see Russ.

Looks very unlikely to me that he'd be in the codex. Too little time to hype him properly.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd argue you play Salamanders the same way since they're just as focused on running short range shooting due to their bonuses at the time, but fair point I guess.

I've been reading through the Primaris Tactica, and while I've got pages left to go, one thing stands out to me: the army lacks proper anti-tank options.

Actually some other things than plasma for special/heavy weapons in general would be nice. I still vote for Volkite of course.

I think the anti-tank stuff will come, SM's aren't Orks, we'll just have to wait I think, hope they come up with something cool though. I really hope they don't do away with devastators/long fangs though. Nothing cooler than a marine with a heavybolter etc.

I really don't think they really have much of an issue with anti-tank. They are lacking S9 and could really do with some lascannon equivalents but the amount of overcharged plasma they can lay down is crazy. But, from experience, you need to dedicate about 30% of your list to take down armour. Basically a little plasma-toting task force within the main army. The Redemptor with macro plasma thingy is actually a pretty effective tank hunter, but I always, always, without fail have to Re-roll the dice for the amount of shots it gets off. (Shakes fist at dice gods)

Banville wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'd argue you play Salamanders the same way since they're just as focused on running short range shooting due to their bonuses at the time, but fair point I guess.

I've been reading through the Primaris Tactica, and while I've got pages left to go, one thing stands out to me: the army lacks proper anti-tank options.

Actually some other things than plasma for special/heavy weapons in general would be nice. I still vote for Volkite of course.

I think the anti-tank stuff will come, SM's aren't Orks, we'll just have to wait I think, hope they come up with something cool though. I really hope they don't do away with devastators/long fangs though. Nothing cooler than a marine with a heavybolter etc.

I really don't think they really have much of an issue with anti-tank. They are lacking S9 and could really do with some lascannon equivalents but the amount of overcharged plasma they can lay down is crazy. But, from experience, you need to dedicate about 30% of your list to take down armour. Basically a little plasma-toting task force within the main army. The Redemptor with macro plasma thingy is actually a pretty effective tank hunter, but I always, always, without fail have to Re-roll the dice for the amount of shots it gets off. (Shakes fist at dice gods)

Really plasma against Alitoc I see you like to die often.
Also Plasma historically lorewise wasn't an anti tank weapon, it was anti heavy infantry, lascannons are for anti tank.
Unfortunately Hellblasters being primarus's only anti tank is probably one of the reasons that plasma is OP in 8th edition, but it's also made it the perfect anti primaris weapon.

Also marines especially primaris don't play as IMHO they should do, they should be able to do anything OK but not be the best at anything making them the tac list specialist. Intercessors kinda do this appart from being way overcosted. Agressors with boltstorms are insane but right now need strike from the shadows to actually be the terrors that people math hammer them as.

Nobody around here plays Alaitoc, so I've been spared that so far. But I see what you mean. I agree that they do need a dedicated lascannon team and they also need a proper combat unit. Aggressors are great anti horde and I've found they work even without SFTS. But you have to use them as a counterpunch unit, if you try and advance them across the board, shouting 'Chaaaaaarge' they get minced. They're priority number one for incoming fire and the Repulsor is just far too expensive to use as a bus for them. Your Aggressors will get there but your 300pt tank will be a smoking wreck at the bottom of turn 2.

Elite Primaris..

It's the only unit primaris are missing.

How about a form of open topped transport, like a Grav platform of sorts that can move super fast yet has a shield on it to protect the unit inside. Run aggressors up the field on it yet they class as not moving but can shoot from the platform and boom you have your anti horde unit.

I thought when they released hell blasters we’d end up seeing more of them with different weapon combo’s quite soon but we didn’t... I think the dreadnaught needs more options as well. A dedicated anti tank platform with stronger missiles and quad lascannons or twin linked las talons or something.

I personally don’t want to see bikes. Bikes are boring to me.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Leaked release is 25th Aug, Pre-orders next week

Hope we see Russ.

we won't. Russ if he returns, IF, will be returning as part of a big event, not just "ohh by the way"'d into the codex.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
How about a form of open topped transport, like a Grav platform of sorts that can move super fast yet has a shield on it to protect the unit inside. Run aggressors up the field on it yet they class as not moving but can shoot from the platform and boom you have your anti horde unit.

I thought when they released hell blasters we’d end up seeing more of them with different weapon combo’s quite soon but we didn’t... I think the dreadnaught needs more options as well. A dedicated anti tank platform with stronger missiles and quad lascannons or twin linked las talons or something.

I personally don’t want to see bikes. Bikes are boring to me.

Yeah, I don't want bikes either. I don't think the concept works at all. Scout bikes, yeah, but guys mounting cavalry charges on motorbikes? Nah.

An ATV like Mantic's Mule would be cool. Sweet model by the way.

I'd like, just cos it'd be cool, some sort of quad-mounted autocannon thing that can move along on tracks or big chunky wheels.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Leaked release is 25th Aug, Pre-orders next week

Hope we see Russ.

we won't. Russ if he returns, IF, will be returning as part of a big event, not just "ohh by the way"'d into the codex.

Absolutely. I am certain they will make people buy another book to run him when he does get a release

Maybe the next primarch will be in the next round of codexes.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

"As well as bringing Primaris Space Marines fully into the fold, the codex is packed with tweaks and improvements to every part of your army. There are even some brand-new datasheets, giving you never-seen-before options like Wulfen Dreadnoughts or Wolf Guard Terminators clad in Cataphractii and Tartaros pattern armour. We’ll be previewing the new codex throughout the next week with a closer look at what it means for you and your army, so stay tuned!"

It's down in the Codex Section of this post
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/12/coming-soon-new-models-and-a-new-battle-in-a-box/

I'm bummed they didn't say:
"As well as bringing Primaris Space Marines fully into the pack, the codex is filled with...". Wolf jokes are best jokes!

Excited to see what all they get. Wonder if they'll make it so Long Fangs get "Helfrost Cannons" and tell you to just use the Grav Cannons?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Excited to see what all they get. Wonder if they'll make it so Long Fangs get "Helfrost Cannons" and tell you to just use the Grav Cannons?

Obviously not.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Excited to see what all they get. Wonder if they'll make it so Long Fangs get "Helfrost Cannons" and tell you to just use the Grav Cannons?

Obviously not.

I mean, probably not--but Helfrost stuff not being present was such a missed opportunity.

I'd assume Grav will get added though.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Excited to see what all they get. Wonder if they'll make it so Long Fangs get "Helfrost Cannons" and tell you to just use the Grav Cannons?

Obviously not.

Based on Blood Angels and Dark Angels, I'd expect very little new compared to the index. Probably just the new Primaris guy they've shown, plus the Terminators and the Wulfen Dread of course. I wouldn't be surprised if that was it in terms of units and wargear.

There'll be a ton of strats of course!

well longfangs had their kit pulled so it's fair for space wolves to hold out a small hope that they get their own kit again with some new options.

BrianDavion wrote:
well longfangs had their kit pulled so it's fair for space wolves to hold out a small hope that they get their own kit again with some new options.

That would be pretty huge (and therefore unlikely) actually. We haven't had a new oldscale release since Primaris came out.

Banville wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
How about a form of open topped transport, like a Grav platform of sorts that can move super fast yet has a shield on it to protect the unit inside. Run aggressors up the field on it yet they class as not moving but can shoot from the platform and boom you have your anti horde unit.

I thought when they released hell blasters we’d end up seeing more of them with different weapon combo’s quite soon but we didn’t... I think the dreadnaught needs more options as well. A dedicated anti tank platform with stronger missiles and quad lascannons or twin linked las talons or something.

I personally don’t want to see bikes. Bikes are boring to me.

Yeah, I don't want bikes either. I don't think the concept works at all. Scout bikes, yeah, but guys mounting cavalry charges on motorbikes? Nah.

An ATV like Mantic's Mule would be cool. Sweet model by the way.

I'd like, just cos it'd be cool, some sort of quad-mounted autocannon thing that can move along on tracks or big chunky wheels.

Now that Cawl has created this new grav tech (built on old grave tech, added as people think I meant he invented the original grave tech, people keep bringing this up so before you comment, everyones already done it before you) we'll most likely get jet bikes.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

At least it might mean them getting rid of those emperor-awful land speeders.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

At least it might mean them getting rid of those emperor-awful land speeders.

Land Speeders aren't that terribly designed outside the ghastly Darkshroud...

I’ve gotten used to the landsoeeder design but the 2nd edition ones reimagined would’ve been better in plastering. RT ones were ok.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

He didn't invent the original, but he invented the new grav tech, there is no lore I've heard that shows how he made them. Of course it adds something, who can't use a jetbike. Its daft if the DA's and the WS's get them and no one else does.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

At least it might mean them getting rid of those emperor-awful land speeders.

Someone needs to go and apologize to Akhan Land for insulting his speeders.

Seriously though, I don't think the Land Speeder is at fault here, it's an old kit and that's going to make it suffer in terms to design compared to newer stuff but it fits the game well enough.

I don’t think the grav tech is new. He just improved stuff and repurposed stuff. I’ll have a look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sounds like existing tech used in new and heretical ways. It does look like a land raider with grav plates on. Not much fluff on it really.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

He didn't invent the original, but he invented the new grav tech, there is no lore I've heard that shows how he made them. Of course it adds something, who can't use a jetbike. Its daft if the DA's and the WS's get them and no one else does.

He's using grav plates, something that are on vehicles the Imperium over. It's not new tech, it's a new application of old tech.,

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

At least it might mean them getting rid of those emperor-awful land speeders.

Someone needs to go and apologize to Akhan Land for insulting his speeders.

Seriously though, I don't think the Land Speeder is at fault here, it's an old kit and that's going to make it suffer in terms to design compared to newer stuff but it fits the game well enough.

Either way - every time I see one I keep expecting to see George Jetson driving it, not a space marine.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

At least it might mean them getting rid of those emperor-awful land speeders.

Someone needs to go and apologize to Akhan Land for insulting his speeders.

Seriously though, I don't think the Land Speeder is at fault here, it's an old kit and that's going to make it suffer in terms to design compared to newer stuff but it fits the game well enough.

Either way - every time I see one I keep expecting to see George Jetson driving it, not a space marine.

George Jetson drove a flying saucer with bubble lid. Marines have what is basically a Jeep that flies.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

He didn't invent the original, but he invented the new grav tech, there is no lore I've heard that shows how he made them. Of course it adds something, who can't use a jetbike. Its daft if the DA's and the WS's get them and no one else does.

He's using grav plates, something that are on vehicles the Imperium over. It's not new tech, it's a new application of old tech.,

I never said it was new tech. I've got 30k custodes grav tanks.

I like the repulsor. Best new marine vehicle in ages.

Andykp wrote:
I like the repulsor. Best new marine vehicle in ages.

Way too many points, though.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

He didn't invent the original, but he invented the new grav tech, there is no lore I've heard that shows how he made them. Of course it adds something, who can't use a jetbike. Its daft if the DA's and the WS's get them and no one else does.

He's using grav plates, something that are on vehicles the Imperium over. It's not new tech, it's a new application of old tech.,

I never said it was new tech. I've got 30k custodes grav tanks.

You literally called it "new grav tech" in the post I quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I like the repulsor. Best new marine vehicle in ages.

Way too points, though.

About Land Raider costed, but better choice in guns for the cost of a point of save (3+ instead of a 2+).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

He didn't invent the original, but he invented the new grav tech, there is no lore I've heard that shows how he made them. Of course it adds something, who can't use a jetbike. Its daft if the DA's and the WS's get them and no one else does.

He's using grav plates, something that are on vehicles the Imperium over. It's not new tech, it's a new application of old tech.,

I never said it was new tech. I've got 30k custodes grav tanks.

You literally called it "new grav tech" in the post I quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I like the repulsor. Best new marine vehicle in ages.

Way too points, though.

About Land Raider costed, but better choice in guns for the cost of a point of save (3+ instead of a 2+).

FLY too, which is significant for fallback and shoot. It's not great overall, but certainly better than a LR.

Stux wrote:
FLY too, which is significant for fallback and shoot. It's not great overall, but certainly better than a LR.

It also makes the Repulsor more mobile too. Want to park it on top of a building to get better LOS? You can!

I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Honestly if someone wants to waste that many S5 shots on a Repulsor I say go for it. You know how many shots it would take?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Honestly if someone wants to waste that many S5 shots on a Repulsor I say go for it. You know how many shots it would take?

Repulsor is so expensive it's still efficient.

In the spirit of rampant wishlisting, here's my wishes (For what they're worth ):

Do away with the whole 'Old Marines' line, reintroducing only the most iconic bits in Primaris scale. I'm speaking from a collecting/lore point of view, so I can't really say how this would affect the TT game. Anywaay, the bit's I'd reintroduce would be:

Jump-Pack equipped Assault Squads.
Primaris Terminators
Primaris Heavy Weapons squad

Vehicles:

A proper tank. The Land Raider and Repulsor are both, in reality, heavy APC's/Assault Guns (Think a cross between a M113 and a Stug), despite being touted as a 'Tank' by GW. The Rhino is also an APC and the Predator (and Razor-back) are more like an IFV. Currently, Space Marines do not actually have a genuine MBT-type tank (Because the IoM doesn't want them getting too powerful - but now they have a Primarch running the show, so...)

No bikes, aside from scouts. As mentioned before, motorbike cavalry charges are... dubious, to say the least.

Finally, Relics. This is the key bit that I think GW overlooked when they introduced Primaris Marines (Especially as they came off the back of Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero). The core, central, overwhelming theme of the Imperium is that they are dogmatic, backwards looking and they utterly venerate relics. Even the most progressive of SM Chapters, even if they disregard the religious aspects of IoM dogma, still regard Chapter relics as objects of great worth.

But, helmets and shoulder pads aside, none of the classic weapons or marks of armour can be utilised by Primaris Marines. So what the feth was the point in doing BaC and BoP? All those iconic armours that people have wanted for years are utterly pointless unless you use them solely for 30k! So, I'd wish-list the most for a few boxes of true-scaled relic armours. I have no idea how you would justify them in the lore - perhaps the chapter artificers reforged the suits to fit them? All this could have been avoided if they had just avoided making Primaris marines bigger in the fluff...

Andykp wrote:
I like the repulsor. Best new marine vehicle in ages.

disagree it looks like it was designed by a 5 year old.

A land raider for all its faults and being overcost atleast looks like its designed for fighting.
A repulsor it just every weapon on the first bit of available armour.

They either need to be allowed into landraider, tunderhawks etc FFS they can cary centurions and Terminators. Or they need more vehicals. Also the beer gut dreadnaught looks nasty compaired to Leviathans and contemptors. Primaris Don't actually look to bad next to sicarans.

Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
well longfangs had their kit pulled so it's fair for space wolves to hold out a small hope that they get their own kit again with some new options.

That would be pretty huge (and therefore unlikely) actually. We haven't had a new oldscale release since Primaris came out.

Since the alternative is Longfangs get pulled from the book, it's not unlikely they get a new kit.

It is worth mentioning that the previous Longfangs and Skyclaws boxes were using the versions of those boxes that were two iterations or so back.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Honestly if someone wants to waste that many S5 shots on a Repulsor I say go for it. You know how many shots it would take?

Repulsor is so expensive it's still efficient.

You didn't answer the question.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Since the alternative is Longfangs get pulled from the book, it's not unlikely they get a new kit.

No, they will just use the standard Devastator kit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Now that Cawl has created grav tech we'll most likely get jet bikes.

Cawl didn't "invent" grav tech, he just violated the sacred STC of something like a Land Raider by slapping more guns and grave plates onto it (that or found an STC for the thing somewhere).

Still not solid on this idea of grav bike Primaris. I mean the Dark Angels and White Scars would be happy, but I don't know if it really adds anything to the army beyond a thematic choice.,

He didn't invent the original, but he invented the new grav tech, there is no lore I've heard that shows how he made them. Of course it adds something, who can't use a jetbike. Its daft if the DA's and the WS's get them and no one else does.

He's using grav plates, something that are on vehicles the Imperium over. It's not new tech, it's a new application of old tech.,

I never said it was new tech. I've got 30k custodes grav tanks.

You literally called it "new grav tech" in the post I quoted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I like the repulsor. Best new marine vehicle in ages.

Way too points, though.

About Land Raider costed, but better choice in guns for the cost of a point of save (3+ instead of a 2+).

Yeah because its not the same as the old grav tech, it is new and also 'new tech'. based on old tech. You are stuck on semantics, he invented this new tech, he didn't come up with the original idea of grav tech. Steve jobs and his company invented the Iphone, they didn't invent the phone.

Look, a Space Marine grav tank is not new tech, they've existed since the Rogue Trader!
It just took a while for GW to update the model.

 Crimson wrote:
Look, a Space Marine grav tank is not new tech, they've existed since the Rogue Trader!
It just took a while for GW to update the model.

The grav tech on the repulser etc is new. Again he didn't invent grav tech. its not the same as the old grav tech, it is new and also 'new tech'. based on old tech. he invented this new tech, he didn't come up with the original idea of grav tech. Steve jobs and his company invented the Iphone, they didn't invent the phone. As for land speeders etc. That tech was lost.

Deodorant tank mark 2!

I think I like the Repulsor even more now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Honestly if someone wants to waste that many S5 shots on a Repulsor I say go for it. You know how many shots it would take?

Repulsor is so expensive it's still efficient.

You didn't answer the question.

Probably quite a bit. 30 ish dissy cannon shots. But if you're fielding the repulsor, they've got nothing else to shoot at.

doom the repulsor and you only need 8 dissie cannons to have a basically 50/50 shot (3x ravagers). Jinx it and you only need 7...

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Honestly if someone wants to waste that many S5 shots on a Repulsor I say go for it. You know how many shots it would take?

Repulsor is so expensive it's still efficient.

Assuming the Tau are the firing army and are likely shooting at BS4+, 290 S5 shots to kill one Repulsor. 216 if they have 3+ to hit.

How many points of Tau is that exactly?

They still knocking out 300+ points. It's not as bad as it sounds. Repulsor is a joke vs weapons actually designed to hurt it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Honestly if someone wants to waste that many S5 shots on a Repulsor I say go for it. You know how many shots it would take?

Repulsor is so expensive it's still efficient.

Assuming the Tau are the firing army and are likely shooting at BS4+, 290 S5 shots to kill one Repulsor. 216 if they have 3+ to hit.

How many points of Tau is that exactly?

If they are all rapid-firing with pulse rifles or armed with pulse carbines, and assuming 3+ to hit, it's about 750pts of Fire Warriors. It's just over a 1000pts at 4+ to hit, and up to 2000pts if they're not all in range for 2 shots each.

 nurgle5 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess. The 2+ armor is great vs S5 spam attacks though. Repulsor is super-flimsy.

Honestly if someone wants to waste that many S5 shots on a Repulsor I say go for it. You know how many shots it would take?

Repulsor is so expensive it's still efficient.

Assuming the Tau are the firing army and are likely shooting at BS4+, 290 S5 shots to kill one Repulsor. 216 if they have 3+ to hit.

How many points of Tau is that exactly?

If they are all rapid-firing with pulse rifles or armed with pulse carbines, and assuming 3+ to hit, it's about 750pts of Fire Warriors. It's just over a 1000pts at 4+ to hit, and up to 2000pts if they're not all in range for 2 shots each.

That's over double the points for the most bling'd out Repulsor for the first, and it only gets worse from there.

Apparently there is one army that can bring legitimate S5 shooting that could do it: Dark Eldar, but that's an issue with the Dissy more than anything. Either way, most armies can't drop one of these that easily in a single turm of shooting. And if that many models are shooing at it, they're not shooting the rest of your army.

They don't need to. You brought a repulsor. And presumably you've got marines.

Martel732 wrote:
They don't need to. You brought a repulsor. And presumably you've got marines.

Martel, your meta based advice is basically useless considering you get cheated by your opponents regularly enough for me to notice (just from your posts in the Primaris only thread) and don't bother to learn their rules to catch them on it, so basically please stop. You're making us all feel embarrassed to have to read your heavily skewed advice that you claim reflects every meta ever.

No? Put me on ignore, then.

I never claimed it's every meta. I'm saying the repulsor is objectively bad compared to other units and choices.

My original point stands that for a 300+ point investment, the 2+ is really nice. Nicer than fly, because they almost always die to shooting.

Martel732 wrote:
No? Put me on ignore, then.

I never claimed it's every meta. I'm saying the repulsor is objectively bad compared to other units and choices.

My original point stands that for a 300+ point investment, the 2+ is really nice. Nicer than fly, because they almost always die to shooting.

Your "point" is always based on apparently infinite amount of shooting that every army has in equal measure that automatically invalidates almost all of the Primaris list regardless of the fact that only very specific builds of certain armies are bad match ups for Primaris.

And even when math shows you that you're wrong about how generalist your claims are, you claim you're right.

This isn't tactical genius, it's basically the opposite.

I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No? Put me on ignore, then.

I never claimed it's every meta. I'm saying the repulsor is objectively bad compared to other units and choices.

My original point stands that for a 300+ point investment, the 2+ is really nice. Nicer than fly, because they almost always die to shooting.

Your "point" is always based on apparently infinite amount of shooting that every army has in equal measure that automatically invalidates almost all of the Primaris list regardless of the fact that only very specific builds of certain armies are bad match ups for Primaris.

And even when math shows you that you're wrong about how generalist your claims are, you claim you're right.

This isn't tactical genius, it's basically the opposite.

Then put me on ignore and be done with it. 2 damage weapons are everywhere and legimately ruin primaris marines. You can pretend otherwise, but you would be wrong.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
In the spirit of rampant wishlisting, here's my wishes (For what they're worth ):

Do away with the whole 'Old Marines' line, reintroducing only the most iconic bits in Primaris scale. I'm speaking from a collecting/lore point of view, so I can't really say how this would affect the TT game. Anywaay, the bit's I'd reintroduce would be:

Jump-Pack equipped Assault Squads.
Primaris Terminators
Primaris Heavy Weapons squad

Vehicles:

A proper tank. The Land Raider and Repulsor are both, in reality, heavy APC's/Assault Guns (Think a cross between a M113 and a Stug), despite being touted as a 'Tank' by GW. The Rhino is also an APC and the Predator (and Razor-back) are more like an IFV. Currently, Space Marines do not actually have a genuine MBT-type tank (Because the IoM doesn't want them getting too powerful - but now they have a Primarch running the show, so...)

No bikes, aside from scouts. As mentioned before, motorbike cavalry charges are... dubious, to say the least.

Finally, Relics. This is the key bit that I think GW overlooked when they introduced Primaris Marines (Especially as they came off the back of Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero). The core, central, overwhelming theme of the Imperium is that they are dogmatic, backwards looking and they utterly venerate relics. Even the most progressive of SM Chapters, even if they disregard the religious aspects of IoM dogma, still regard Chapter relics as objects of great worth.

But, helmets and shoulder pads aside, none of the classic weapons or marks of armour can be utilised by Primaris Marines. So what the feth was the point in doing BaC and BoP? All those iconic armours that people have wanted for years are utterly pointless unless you use them solely for 30k! So, I'd wish-list the most for a few boxes of true-scaled relic armours. I have no idea how you would justify them in the lore - perhaps the chapter artificers reforged the suits to fit them? All this could have been avoided if they had just avoided making Primaris marines bigger in the fluff...

It would be a very gak day if they got rid of jump packs, I hope they keep terminators to the indomitus style, loved it since 2nd and same with the devs.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
In the spirit of rampant wishlisting, here's my wishes (For what they're worth ):

Do away with the whole 'Old Marines' line, reintroducing only the most iconic bits in Primaris scale. I'm speaking from a collecting/lore point of view, so I can't really say how this would affect the TT game. Anywaay, the bit's I'd reintroduce would be:

Jump-Pack equipped Assault Squads.
Primaris Terminators
Primaris Heavy Weapons squad

Vehicles:

A proper tank. The Land Raider and Repulsor are both, in reality, heavy APC's/Assault Guns (Think a cross between a M113 and a Stug), despite being touted as a 'Tank' by GW. The Rhino is also an APC and the Predator (and Razor-back) are more like an IFV. Currently, Space Marines do not actually have a genuine MBT-type tank (Because the IoM doesn't want them getting too powerful - but now they have a Primarch running the show, so...)

No bikes, aside from scouts. As mentioned before, motorbike cavalry charges are... dubious, to say the least.

Finally, Relics. This is the key bit that I think GW overlooked when they introduced Primaris Marines (Especially as they came off the back of Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero). The core, central, overwhelming theme of the Imperium is that they are dogmatic, backwards looking and they utterly venerate relics. Even the most progressive of SM Chapters, even if they disregard the religious aspects of IoM dogma, still regard Chapter relics as objects of great worth.

But, helmets and shoulder pads aside, none of the classic weapons or marks of armour can be utilised by Primaris Marines. So what the feth was the point in doing BaC and BoP? All those iconic armours that people have wanted for years are utterly pointless unless you use them solely for 30k! So, I'd wish-list the most for a few boxes of true-scaled relic armours. I have no idea how you would justify them in the lore - perhaps the chapter artificers reforged the suits to fit them? All this could have been avoided if they had just avoided making Primaris marines bigger in the fluff...

It would be a very gak day if they got rid of jump packs, I hope they keep terminators to the indomitus style, loved it since 2nd and same with the devs.

I'm sure they'll keep the basic Indomitus look as it's so iconic, but I am also sure it'll get the Primaris treatment one day and be upscaled and reproportioned.


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If we're lucky they'll also tack on the rules to make them playable!

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing.

@Delvarus Centurion + Stux - Indomitus is alright, but it's the potential loss of Tartarus that grieves me the most If only Gravis hadn't been described as almost as strong as Terminator armour, but more agile - then Terminator armour would still hold it's use (Lore-wise, I can't speak for the TT)

 Warpig1815 wrote:

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing.

@Delvarus Centurion + Stux - Indomitus is alright, but it's the potential loss of Tartarus that grieves me the most If only Gravis hadn't been described as almost as strong as Terminator armour, but more agile - then Terminator armour would still hold it's use (Lore-wise, I can't speak for the TT)

They should just make them the same size as Primaris, but you're right there is no way they'd be able to get access to the gene-tech.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing.

@Delvarus Centurion + Stux - Indomitus is alright, but it's the potential loss of Tartarus that grieves me the most If only Gravis hadn't been described as almost as strong as Terminator armour, but more agile - then Terminator armour would still hold it's use (Lore-wise, I can't speak for the TT)

They should just make them the same size as Primaris, but you're right there is no way they'd be able to get access to the gene-tech.

Also, they're actual ghosts.....

Banville wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing.

@Delvarus Centurion + Stux - Indomitus is alright, but it's the potential loss of Tartarus that grieves me the most If only Gravis hadn't been described as almost as strong as Terminator armour, but more agile - then Terminator armour would still hold it's use (Lore-wise, I can't speak for the TT)

They should just make them the same size as Primaris, but you're right there is no way they'd be able to get access to the gene-tech.

Also, they're actual ghosts.....

Implied =/= fact

What can I say, I like the look of Primaris and you may as well accept them, they're not going to be ret conned out.

 Warpig1815 wrote:

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing.

@Delvarus Centurion + Stux - Indomitus is alright, but it's the potential loss of Tartarus that grieves me the most If only Gravis hadn't been described as almost as strong as Terminator armour, but more agile - then Terminator armour would still hold it's use (Lore-wise, I can't speak for the TT)

If they're a Psychic construct of the emperor's I can think of a few ways it could be done. "the Legion have of late appered with primaris Marines among their ranks, this has caused some great questions among the Inqusitors researching them, several theories have of late been advanced. The First is that these Primaris Legion are the transformed remains of those who accompanied Cato Sicaruious and Fleet Avenger, thought lost in the warp. Others have suggested the Legion are in fact Physcic constructs and the Primaris Marines presence among them is proof manifest of the Emperor's support for them. Still Others have suggested that as Physic constructs, the Legion is, much like anything of the warp, subject to being changed by the perceptions of individuals. As such they postulate that the Primaris Marines are due to the growing association of Primaris Marines among the Legion of the damned"


There we go, three equally possiable ways that Primaris Legion could happen, all that seem both possiable and include some intreasting possiabilities. (including the idea of "Cato Sicarious, Captain of the Damned!".. I'm head canoning that )

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing.

@Delvarus Centurion + Stux - Indomitus is alright, but it's the potential loss of Tartarus that grieves me the most If only Gravis hadn't been described as almost as strong as Terminator armour, but more agile - then Terminator armour would still hold it's use (Lore-wise, I can't speak for the TT)

They should just make them the same size as Primaris, but you're right there is no way they'd be able to get access to the gene-tech.

For the price, LotD should HAVE two wounds.

Any universal fixes to Bolt weapons would improve them too. Or they need special Bolters for themselves. I dunno. I forgot the unit entry myself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing.

@Delvarus Centurion + Stux - Indomitus is alright, but it's the potential loss of Tartarus that grieves me the most If only Gravis hadn't been described as almost as strong as Terminator armour, but more agile - then Terminator armour would still hold it's use (Lore-wise, I can't speak for the TT)

They should just make them the same size as Primaris, but you're right there is no way they'd be able to get access to the gene-tech.

For the price, LotD should HAVE two wounds.

Any universal fixes to Bolt weapons would improve them too. Or they need special Bolters for themselves. I dunno. I forgot the unit entry myself.

'ALL' marines should have 2 wounds. 1 wound does not cut it in this edition, especially for how expensive our models are.

Weird. This went from Rhinos for Primaris, which should probably be called a Primaro or a Rhinaris, to Rhinos suck because Wave Serpents are awesome, to nerd mudslinging. Got the pit-stick landspeeder pic tho...

I think the Gravis armour is not a replacement for Terminator armour but rather for Artificer! AA was basically PA but with more bling and way older so that makes sense in the way Gravis armour is a logical step up from Mk10 PA.

And besides, who wouldn't buy Primaris Terminators? What would they be called huh? Primarinators.... Ha.

GW would sell them funny though for IP security... Primarinaetors.

 darkcloak wrote:
Weird. This went from Rhinos for Primaris, which should probably be called a Primaro or a Rhinaris, to Rhinos suck because Wave Serpents are awesome, to nerd mudslinging. Got the pit-stick landspeeder pic tho...

I think the Gravis armour is not a replacement for Terminator armour but rather for Artificer! AA was basically PA but with more bling and way older so that makes sense in the way Gravis armour is a logical step up from Mk10 PA.

And besides, who wouldn't buy Primaris Terminators? What would they be called huh? Primarinators.... Ha.

GW would sell them funny though for IP security... Primarinaetors.

Actually I think if I was with GW and I had to name a terminator squad I'd continue with the fancy names and go with Primaris Invitca's

 darkcloak wrote:
Weird. This went from Rhinos for Primaris, which should probably be called a Primaro or a Rhinaris, to Rhinos suck because Wave Serpents are awesome, to nerd mudslinging. Got the pit-stick landspeeder pic tho...

I think the Gravis armour is not a replacement for Terminator armour but rather for Artificer! AA was basically PA but with more bling and way older so that makes sense in the way Gravis armour is a logical step up from Mk10 PA.

And besides, who wouldn't buy Primaris Terminators? What would they be called huh? Primarinators.... Ha.

GW would sell them funny though for IP security... Primarinaetors.

You think rhino's are good at 70pnts.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

That could be pretty cool actually.


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Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No? Put me on ignore, then.

I never claimed it's every meta. I'm saying the repulsor is objectively bad compared to other units and choices.

My original point stands that for a 300+ point investment, the 2+ is really nice. Nicer than fly, because they almost always die to shooting.

Your "point" is always based on apparently infinite amount of shooting that every army has in equal measure that automatically invalidates almost all of the Primaris list regardless of the fact that only very specific builds of certain armies are bad match ups for Primaris.

And even when math shows you that you're wrong about how generalist your claims are, you claim you're right.

This isn't tactical genius, it's basically the opposite.

Then put me on ignore and be done with it. 2 damage weapons are everywhere and legimately ruin primaris marines. You can pretend otherwise, but you would be wrong.

Putting you on ignore and not countering your claims with actual information is basically the same as agreeing it to be true because it's being left unchallenged with actual information.

Are D2+ weapons a problem for Primaris? In that they're the same for Necron vehicles with QS, sure. Are most metas tailoring specifically to bring them when dealing with threats like Guard CP farms, Knights, Eldar and the like that are actually running metas right now? Not outside of yours where an opponent apparently regularly tailors his Guard army to run all autocannons to kill you basically turn one.

Something that counters an army isn't a problem unless the entire meta adopts the position of counting it, and frankly they're much bigger threats in most armies that Primaris are sitting in a comfortable mid-tier position and not at the bottom of the heap with the Grey Knights.


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 Warpig1815 wrote:

fraser1191 wrote:I'm just going to go out into left field and say Primaris Legion of the Damned. Love those guys and I just want them in plastic and that's probably the only way they'll ever get re-done

Not to be rude, but that is the worst possible fluff-butchering GW could do regarding inserting more Primaris marines in the setting. Unless the lore has been changed, it's heavily implied that the Fire Hawks were caught in a Warp storm, killed and resurrected as psychic constructs (possibly by the Emperor) - the Legion of the Damned. Hence, it would be physically impossible for them to be 'reinforced' with Primaris Marines, not to mention that nobody in their right mind is going to attempt to reinforce a dead chapter anyway. The only way they could fluff-mangle it is if the LotD 'assume' the form of the latest marines - which completely circumvents their nature as a lost chapter returned with a psychic malady/blessing./quote]
It's heavily implied that there are multiple sources of the LotD, all of which could be true, or none of them. Another one of the heavily hinted at theories says they're either warp ghosts or daemons of the Emperor himself.