Sight returned, banishing the grotesque feeling of helplessness. Such emotion was anathema, prickling at Argel Tal’s skin with a thousand insect legs. He managed to look through his dimmed visor, seeing a towering figure deep in a corona of agonising white light. Around the figure, cloaked and gold-armoured warriors hefted unique spears with practiced ease. Each one was the size of an Astartes, and no Astartes could fail to recognise them.

‘Custodes,’ he managed to speak through teeth gritted at the light’s intensity.

‘It’s…’ Xaphen stammered. ‘It’s the…’

‘I know who it is,’ Argel Tal exhaled the words through clenched teeth. And that’s when the voice hit him, hit them all, in a wave of invisible force.

+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it.

One hundred thousand Word Bearers kneeled in the dust of the perfect city, rendered prone by Imperial decree. A Legion was on its knees.




The Emperor clearly forced the Word Bearers to kneel here with his power. I thought I should post this here since it would be off topic in other forums.



"+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

'You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.'

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

'You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.'

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn't discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,' he said."



Here his voice sends them flying. And there is no such thing as slave coding with the Primarchs and Marines.

Loved that scene since it showed both how powerful he could be when he took the gloves off and how colossally bad he was with people.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Loved that scene since it showed both how powerful he could be when he took the gloves off and how colossally bad he was with people.

Its nothing too special. The Cacodominus mind controlled 1,300 systems and its death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astrononican. I posted it to show some people on DakkaDakka who doubted it that it did happen.


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh252/Lord_Cherubael/Feats/40kfeat-1.jpg

And this psyker could mind control planetary populations for jollies.



Kor’sarro had witnessed even warlike orks fall back in the face of such a barrage. He had known tyranid bio-organisms, bred for nothing but war, to falter against such a weight of firepower. He had seen only two types of foe continue forwards against such odds. On the third moon of Woebetide, whilst serving as a Scout many decades before, he had faced an Enslaver plague, and watched as ten thousand mind-slaved meat puppets, each formally a stoic Cadian shock trooper, were compelled by their alien masters to cross a minefield a hundred kilometres deep into the combined fire of the White Scars, Red Hunters and Celestial Lions Chapters. The other occasion had been on Delta Arbuthnot, when a potent, alpha-level psyker had forced an entire planetary population of ratling agri-serfs to rise up against the landowners in an orgy of bloodshed, even though they were armed with no more than shovels and their foes with automatic weapons.” -Hunt for Voldorius, p.157

One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Background would probably be a better forum for this thread, but on topic:
How do you know it didn't strain the Emperor?

Well for one pure logic. Alpha psyker can mind control 1300 systems. That's on scale way different to what Emperor did. It's also canon Emperor is THE most powerful psyker. Alpha psyker is a wimp compared to Emperor.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Background would probably be a better forum for this thread, but on topic:
How do you know it didn't strain the Emperor?

Because it did not hint at that, and the Emperor went about talking to Lorgar as though it were nothing after that.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

Its from the 5ed rulebook, and BTs could have had a lot of blanks with them to protect themselves. We have never gotten the full story.

So setting aside the discussion of the Emperor's powerlevel, what does this say about his personality, the founding of the Imperium, the fall to Chaos, and the inherent hypocrisy thereof?

Did the Emperor truly think he was making an empire for Man, when Man could do nothing to resist? Argel Tal's thoughts about slavery are on point, and truly paint the Imperium in a wretched light.

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

We don't know how the Black Templars did that. The Cacodominus' death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

Less powerful psykers have better mind controlling feats than what the Emperor did. The Cacodominus' death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So setting aside the discussion of the Emperor's powerlevel, what does this say about his personality, the founding of the Imperium, the fall to Chaos, and the inherent hypocrisy thereof?

Did the Emperor truly think he was making an empire for Man, when Man could do nothing to resist? Argel Tal's thoughts about slavery are on point, and truly paint the Imperium in a wretched light.

It paints him at the very least out of touch with humanity. He knowingly let Lorgar spread his religion then just randomly decided to stab him in the back wen he decided it was an inconvenience and was surprised when that backfired on him with Lorgar turning to chaos.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So setting aside the discussion of the Emperor's powerlevel, what does this say about his personality, the founding of the Imperium, the fall to Chaos, and the inherent hypocrisy thereof?

Did the Emperor truly think he was making an empire for Man, when Man could do nothing to resist? Argel Tal's thoughts about slavery are on point, and truly paint the Imperium in a wretched light.

Chaos were the bad guys. The Horus Heresy books make it clear the Emperor is the much better choice, as I learned after reading books such as Ruinstorm.

Onething123456 wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Background would probably be a better forum for this thread, but on topic:
How do you know it didn't strain the Emperor?

Because it did not hint at that, and the Emperor went about talking to Lorgar as though it were nothing after that.

That's not really a good piece of evidence. A lot of GW writers are terrible writers, so it's just as likely that this was an afterthought and not included.

 Togusa wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Background would probably be a better forum for this thread, but on topic:
How do you know it didn't strain the Emperor?

Because it did not hint at that, and the Emperor went about talking to Lorgar as though it were nothing after that.

That's not really a good piece of evidence. A lot of GW writers are terrible writers, so it's just as likely that this was an afterthought and not included.

There is nothing suggesting it.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Background would probably be a better forum for this thread, but on topic:
How do you know it didn't strain the Emperor?

Because it did not hint at that, and the Emperor went about talking to Lorgar as though it were nothing after that.

That's not really a good piece of evidence. A lot of GW writers are terrible writers, so it's just as likely that this was an afterthought and not included.

There is nothing suggesting it.

There is nothing supporting it.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So setting aside the discussion of the Emperor's powerlevel, what does this say about his personality, the founding of the Imperium, the fall to Chaos, and the inherent hypocrisy thereof?

Did the Emperor truly think he was making an empire for Man, when Man could do nothing to resist? Argel Tal's thoughts about slavery are on point, and truly paint the Imperium in a wretched light.

It paints him at the very least out of touch with humanity. He knowingly let Lorgar spread his religion then just randomly decided to stab him in the back wen he decided it was an inconvenience and was surprised when that backfired on him with Lorgar turning to chaos.

Remember the Imperium embraces slavery, serfdom and warlord governorship's as expedient ways of retaining control of worlds and people. I haven't read any BL Emperor stuff but I hope it shows him as too far gone from the human condition to have any empathy, simply seeing everything as shades of control and coercion for the greater good (the greater good).

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So setting aside the discussion of the Emperor's powerlevel, what does this say about his personality, the founding of the Imperium, the fall to Chaos, and the inherent hypocrisy thereof?

Did the Emperor truly think he was making an empire for Man, when Man could do nothing to resist? Argel Tal's thoughts about slavery are on point, and truly paint the Imperium in a wretched light.

It paints him at the very least out of touch with humanity. He knowingly let Lorgar spread his religion then just randomly decided to stab him in the back wen he decided it was an inconvenience and was surprised when that backfired on him with Lorgar turning to chaos.

Remember the Imperium embraces slavery, serfdom and warlord governorship's as expedient ways of retaining control of worlds and people. I haven't read any BL Emperor stuff but I hope it shows him as too far gone from the human condition to have any empathy, simply seeing everything as shades of control and coercion for the greater good (the greater good).

That depends on parts of the Imperium, and what time it is.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So setting aside the discussion of the Emperor's powerlevel, what does this say about his personality, the founding of the Imperium, the fall to Chaos, and the inherent hypocrisy thereof?

Did the Emperor truly think he was making an empire for Man, when Man could do nothing to resist? Argel Tal's thoughts about slavery are on point, and truly paint the Imperium in a wretched light.

It paints him at the very least out of touch with humanity. He knowingly let Lorgar spread his religion then just randomly decided to stab him in the back wen he decided it was an inconvenience and was surprised when that backfired on him with Lorgar turning to chaos.

Or it went as he planned sparking marine on marine he wished for

Onething123456 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

We don't know how the Black Templars did that. The Cacodominus' death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

Less powerful psykers have better mind controlling feats than what the Emperor did. The Cacodominus' death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican.

I would challenge you to find where a Primarch was ever mind controlled in the Warhammer universe unless it was the Emperor doing it. We can ignore the 100,000 marines and focus on how Lorgar was also forced to kneel. As impressive as the Cacodominus was it was still playing in the shallow end of the power pool compared to the Emperor. And GW wants it that way, I honestly think it would be more interesting if that wasn't so because the Emperor is always written in a really odd fashion. He has a ridiculous level of psychic power but only seems to exercise it at some points in time. The reason that the Emperors Children were allowed to where the Aquila for instance, we've gotten a few snippets of that event in the HH novels and it doesn't really seem like something that should have been actually dangerous to the Emperor given some of the other stuff we have seen him do.

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

We don't know how the Black Templars did that. The Cacodominus' death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One was a psyker on it's death trows freaking out, the other managed to push borderline slaves into rebellion. The emperor made a legion of space marines, including their primarch kneel against their will and it barely strained him. Considering that he's by far one of if not the strongest psyker in the setting, that was probably just a taste.

Yeah, but alpha psykers can mind control planets, and that was a planetary population of slaves he mind controlled just for jollies. He could have easily mind controlled the others, but chose not to. 100,00 Word Bearers is nothing special.


1,300 solar systems beats 100,00 Marines.

It did not strain the Emperor in anyway, shape or form.

Sorry but 1,300 solar systems does not beats 100,000 marines because the passage you are quoting is from the Black Templar codex and is a threat that the Black Templars, not nearly 100,000 strong stopped. So the thing controlling 1,300 solar systems couldn't even control around 1,000 Space Marines (assuming it was a single BT crusade doing the stopping)

The Emperor without missing a beat or preparing made 100,000 Marines (many of which were powerful pyskers in their own right) plus one Primach kneel. GW does like to prove that he is the most powerful psyker in their universe.

Less powerful psykers have better mind controlling feats than what the Emperor did. The Cacodominus' death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican.

I would challenge you to find where a Primarch was ever mind controlled in the Warhammer universe unless it was the Emperor doing it. We can ignore the 100,000 marines and focus on how Lorgar was also forced to kneel. As impressive as the Cacodominus was it was still playing in the shallow end of the power pool compared to the Emperor. And GW wants it that way, I honestly think it would be more interesting if that wasn't so because the Emperor is always written in a really odd fashion. He has a ridiculous level of psychic power but only seems to exercise it at some points in time. The reason that the Emperors Children were allowed to where the Aquila for instance, we've gotten a few snippets of that event in the HH novels and it doesn't really seem like something that should have been actually dangerous to the Emperor given some of the other stuff we have seen him do.

I'm not saying the Cacodominus is stronger. The Emperor is clearly the strongest, but less powerful psykers have done better, such as mind controlling planets.

 vonjankmon wrote:
I honestly think it would be more interesting if that wasn't so because the Emperor is always written in a really odd fashion. He has a ridiculous level of psychic power but only seems to exercise it at some points in time. The reason that the Emperors Children were allowed to where the Aquila for instance, we've gotten a few snippets of that event in the HH novels and it doesn't really seem like something that should have been actually dangerous to the Emperor given some of the other stuff we have seen him do.

Which is why I'm on the camp that "Things are unraveling more or less as planned" reveal from first lord of the imperium audiobook was not false. If Emperor deliberately orchestrated heresy to begin lots of illogicalities like this makes sense. He didn't really NEED their help but giving them the honour was intended to show favoritism to further schism. Albeit he probably intended them to be the loyalists(as well as TS) with some loyalists having been originally intended as traitors.

Personally, I like to think that HH and Emperors "ascension" was a sort of karmic punishment for all the misery he has caused on the universe.

Same goes for humanity in general - that the reason why so many alien hate humans is because humans were powertripping asshats on the DAoT, and that the Men of Iron rebelled because they grew tired of being mankinds thugs and tried to hold humanity responsible for its crimes. Feeding further into the endless cycle of misery, older than mankind, and trapping all involved in it.

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate.

Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

Oh, so deliciously grimdark, and always so very topical, and very fitting for the satirical nature of Warhammer.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Personally, I like to think that HH and Emperors "ascension" was a sort of karmic punishment for all the misery he has caused on the universe.

Same goes for humanity in general - that the reason why so many alien hate humans is because humans were powertripping asshats on the DAoT, and that the Men of Iron rebelled because they grew tired of being mankinds thugs and tried to hold humanity responsible for its crimes. Feeding further into the endless cycle of misery, older than mankind, and trapping all involved in it.

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate.

Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

Oh, so deliciously grimdark, and always so very topical, and very fitting for the satirical nature of Warhammer.

And really? Humans were asshats to aliens in the DAOT? Thats not what the Horus Heresy books tell me.




I have read many Horus Heresy books, and the Emperor is not that bad of a guy.

Bad guy is relative but the Emperor is pretty terrible. He was a garbage father which is why even with out Horus falling to chaos a good chunk of his kids were gonna need to be purged. He was also very selective and heavy handed with how he carried out his will and in the long run pretty much wanted to murder anything that didn't fit his perfect picture of what humanity should be.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Bad guy is relative but the Emperor is pretty terrible. He was a garbage father which is why even with out Horus falling to chaos a good chunk of his kids were gonna need to be purged. He was also very selective and heavy handed with how he carried out his will and in the long run pretty much wanted to murder anything that didn't fit his perfect picture of what humanity should be.

I have seen next to none of that in the Horus Heresy books. I have heard a lot of things about him that turned out to be some kind of meme-ing.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Bad guy is relative but the Emperor is pretty terrible. He was a garbage father which is why even with out Horus falling to chaos a good chunk of his kids were gonna need to be purged. He was also very selective and heavy handed with how he carried out his will and in the long run pretty much wanted to murder anything that didn't fit his perfect picture of what humanity should be.

I have seen next to none of that in the Horus Heresy books. I have heard a lot of things about him that turned out to be some kind of meme-ing.

In no particular order

Lorgar fell because the Emperor went out of his way to embarrass and destroyed any faith or chance of him staying Loyal.

Angron was damaged goods from the beginning and should have been put down long before the heresy, not given an army. The Emperor letting all his friends died made him an easy one to flip.

Mortarian was a similar case, the Emperor robbed him of his moment and that never was rectified.

Horus probably would have been a lot harder to turn if the Emperor was capable of having a dam conversation with his favorite "son" about why he is abandoning the crusade and reassure him he's not gonna thunder warrior the Astartes at the end of the crusade.

Magnus- same deal as Horus, if he hadn't lied about how the universe fundamentally works he probably would have stayed loyal.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Bad guy is relative but the Emperor is pretty terrible. He was a garbage father which is why even with out Horus falling to chaos a good chunk of his kids were gonna need to be purged. He was also very selective and heavy handed with how he carried out his will and in the long run pretty much wanted to murder anything that didn't fit his perfect picture of what humanity should be.

I have seen next to none of that in the Horus Heresy books. I have heard a lot of things about him that turned out to be some kind of meme-ing.

In no particular order

Lorgar fell because the Emperor went out of his way to embarrass and destroyed any faith or chance of him staying Loyal.

Angron was damaged goods from the beginning and should have been put down long before the heresy, not given an army. The Emperor letting all his friends died made him an easy one to flip.

Mortarian was a similar case, the Emperor robbed him of his moment and that never was rectified.

Horus probably would have been a lot harder to turn if the Emperor was capable of having a dam conversation with his favorite "son" about why he is abandoning the crusade and reassure him he's not gonna thunder warrior the Astartes at the end of the crusade.

Magnus- same deal as Horus, if he hadn't lied about how the universe fundamentally works he probably would have stayed loyal.

Not the best father, I know that. But he is not evil. But to be fair he is arrogant and thinks he is right.

Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

And others who where close to Horus told him he was lying to himself that that the Emperor WOULD have conquered them.

The fact is the Emperor was a ruthless conquerer who moved to conquer the galaxy, he stripped children from their families, to raise to be loyal warriors dedicated to the state and to him. he insisuted purges against entire population groups whose only crime was an accident of genetics or belief.

*reads up* ohh look in addition to the Emperor I've just described ADOLF HITLER!

So yeaaah by any modern measure of the term the Emperor was an evil son of a bitch

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

And others who where close to Horus told him he was lying to himself that that the Emperor WOULD have conquered them.

The fact is the Emperor was a ruthless conquerer who moved to conquer the galaxy, he stripped children from their families, to raise to be loyal warriors dedicated to the state and to him. he insisuted purges against entire population groups whose only crime was an accident of genetics or belief.

*reads up* ohh look in addition to the Emperor I've just described ADOLF HITLER!

So yeaaah by any modern measure of the term the Emperor was an evil son of a bitch

No, they did not say Horus was lying to himself. Most of those children, going by the older fluff and other parts of new fluff, were psychotic killers surviving on harsh planets. I have seen pretty much nothing proving it. Its mostly meme-ing



And that depends on what book you are talking about. Because in Scions of the Storm short story from Tales of Heresy, Lorgar and Erebus told the Word Bearers the Emperor ordered them to wipe out a civilization, but it turned out that the Emperor did not order it and that Erebus and Lorgar were Chaos corrupted at the end of the short story. It was already obvious since at the beginning of the story the Word Bearers asked if it was not duty of the Great Crusade to embrace all the distinct strands of humanity, "even its most wayward sons".



Not evil.



EDIT: Conquest is not necessarily pure-evil. Alexander the Great did it, the Romans, did it, and so on. And Hitler was clearly racist.

The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

Even if that is true (and I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books. Certainly not all, but a fair amount), that applies to most characters in 40k.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

Even if that is true (and I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books. Certainly not all, but a fair amount), that applies to most characters in 40k.

Which is to me the point/appeal of the setting. When written well (another term that is on a scale) I find the 40k universe fascinating from a political science perspective. How bad of a universe would we need where a brutal, fascist theocracy be the most viable form of human government.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The emperor's by modern standards is a monster. Hitler would be taking notes. Now while one could make a strong and convincing argument that in a setting where knowledge really is dangerous, reading the wrong book can end the world and that's just a taste of what can go wrong, his way or some variant of it is the only way. But to pretend the emperor was a good guy is stretch.

Even if that is true (and I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books. Certainly not all, but a fair amount), that applies to most characters in 40k.

Which is to me the point/appeal of the setting. When written well (another term that is on a scale) I find the 40k universe fascinating from a political science perspective. How bad of a universe would we need where a brutal, fascist theocracy be the most viable form of human government.

The Emperor is a conqueror. Conquerors are not inherently pure evil. Alexander the Great conquered, the Romans did it, the Persians did it (and do you realize the Persians under Xerxes were closer to a modern western government than any place in Greece?) and so on. The Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex. I have heard a lot of things about the Emperor that turned out to bed some kind of meme-ing, as I said before.



The Imperium is not fascist, it is feudal.


EDIT: But we are getting off topic. I made this thread to show people here who doubted the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel that he did do it.

https://secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/2710

HoundsofDemos wrote:
https://secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/2710

The Imperium lets planets run things their own way and worship the Emperor their own way as long they pay tithe and worship. Its feudal. It would collapse if it functioned as a real totalitarian fascist dictatorship at the galactic level.

Over all the basics are still there, generally. Yes it does vary and some worlds are likely better than others but lets go line by line.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism- Check, Humanity is one nation, your loyal to the Emperor and anyone who is doing something else is an enemy
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights- Inquisition alone addresses that point
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause- Humanity is taught to doubt the outsider
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism- A given, considering the setting

5. (Rampant sexism)- I'll concede this one.

6. A controlled mass media- This may probably depend from world to world. That said information is very closely controlled.
7. Obsession with national security- ....
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together- Despite his best efforts, God Emperor

9. Power of corporations protected- One I'll admit to not being sure about, the economics of the IOM have never been described in detail that i've read other rogue traders in various stories. This seems to support your idea that the IOM is a feudalistic state.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated- Outside of the Navigator House, I don't recall calling a strike being a good idea for anyone else,

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts- Art might eat you, so fair. (Ask Fulgrim)

12. Obsession with crime and punishment- "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

Gonna leave off the last two for now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Over all the basics are still there, generally. Yes it does vary and some worlds are likely better than others but lets go line by line.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism- Check, Humanity is one nation, your loyal to the Emperor and anyone who is doing something else is an enemy
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights- Inquisition alone addresses that point
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause- Humanity is taught to doubt the outsider
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism- A given, considering the setting

5. (Rampant sexism)- I'll concede this one.

6. A controlled mass media- This may probably depend from world to world. That said information is very closely controlled.
7. Obsession with national security- ....
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together- Despite his best efforts, God Emperor

9. Power of corporations protected- One I'll admit to not being sure about, the economics of the IOM have never been described in detail that i've read other rogue traders in various stories. This seems to support your idea that the IOM is a feudalistic state.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated- Outside of the Navigator House, I don't recall calling a strike being a good idea for anyone else,

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts- Art might eat you, so fair. (Ask Fulgrim)

12. Obsession with crime and punishment- "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

Gonna leave off the last two for now.

The Imperium is more of a feudal society than fascist. That is what it is structured on.

The imperium can't be compared to modern fascism. It isn't nationalistic if the aliens are in fact, actual aliens, who wish to annihilate humanity...Literally the best race in the game - in regards to how it would treat conquered humans - the Tau, would still treat humanity as a second class citizen, one which they would have no problem using as cannon fodder or sterilizing. It's a pretty dark setting...rather grim too.

Indeed, a satire of the real world taken to its extreme, everyone hates everyone and wants to kill their each other - a cycle of violence that none of them have the power can escape from.

No one are inherently evil in 40k but all are flaved and ruled by worst parts of their nature, in of so similar ways and unable to cooperate - a reversal of the Star Trekky theme of beings coming together and finding common ground despite their many differences.

Was Emps powerful? Oh yeah - were his choices more in the right than of those whose choises when against his, let alone some definition of "Good"? No, for I think that 40k's beyond such plain concepts as "Good" and "Evil" - it just has people making choices for their own perceived benefit and with which they hope to justify their own narrative, while being unable, or unwilling, to see other peoples narratives as equally valid.

As I see it the real grimness of 40k doesn't come from there being some alien who's just, evil, without any explanation, who wants to hurt you and you just have to kill it - but that neither of you is good or evil and both of you could live together - yet neither is willing to do so and will rather live by the sword and die by the sword. Just like some people still think in the real world, of which, as I said, 40k is a satire of, and a very, very poignant one at that. As Martin Luther King said it: "...violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. "

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Indeed, a satire of the real world taken to its extreme, everyone hates everyone and wants to kill their each other - a cycle of violence that none of them have the power can escape from.

No one are inherently evil in 40k but all are flaved and ruled by worst parts of their nature, in of so similar ways and unable to cooperate - a reversal of the Star Trekky theme of beings coming together and finding common ground despite their many differences.

Was Emps powerful? Oh yeah - were his choices more in the right than of those whose choises when against his, let alone some definition of "Good"? No, for I think that 40k's beyond such plain concepts as "Good" and "Evil" - it just has people making choices for their own perceived benefit and with which they hope to justify their own narrative, while being unable, or unwilling, to see other peoples narratives as equally valid.

As I see it the real grimness of 40k doesn't come from there being some alien who's just, evil, without any explanation, who wants to hurt you and you just have to kill it - but that neither of you is good or evil and both of you could live together - yet neither is willing to do so and will rather live by the sword and die by the sword. Just like some people still think in the real world, of which, as I said, 40k is a satire of, and a very, very poignant one at that. As Martin Luther King said it: "...violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. "

40k is about survival, not good or evil. No one, except the Dark Eldr, are truly evil. And the Emperor is not nearly as bad you say he is from the Horus Heresy books I have read (I have read about 20, and that definitely not all of them, but good.)

Is it, or is it? Maybe it is about survival, or maybe it is just what Imperium wants to its people to think, so that they keep supporting its existence. All information we are given comes from some biased source - it maybe true, but it may just as well be a legend, or a untrue rumor or propaganda.

Thats how 40k works, the general location of places, people and events may remain fixed but the narrative of the media itself is unreliable. A good example of this are the artwork used as cover art for the Caiphas Cain books, which portray Cain as a heroic muscleman, and yet in the stories(which are excerpts from his memoirs) he is not described as such - which one is more true, his self image or the image others have of him? Neither, since both are 40k media with GWs official stamp, and there for, equally valid or invalid.

Maybe Horus Heresy books portray the events as they really happened, or maybe they're just historical fiction roughly based on those events that some one in th 41st millenium wrote.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Is it, or is it? Maybe it is about survival, or maybe it is just what Imperium wants to its people to think, so that they keep supporting its existence. All information we are given comes from some biased source - it maybe true, but it may just as well be a legend, or a untrue rumor or propaganda.

Thats how 40k works, the general location of places, people and events may remain fixed but the narrative of the media itself is unreliable. A good example of this are the artwork used as cover art for the Caiphas Cain books, which portray Cain as a heroic muscleman, and yet in the stories(which are excerpts from his memoirs) he is not described as such - which one is more true, his self image or the image others have of him? Neither, since both are 40k media with GWs official stamp, and there for, equally valid or invalid.

Maybe Horus Heresy books portray the events as they really happened, or maybe they're just historical fiction roughly based on those events that some one in th 41st millenium wrote.

All information comes from a biased source, but its by no means only the Imperium. Those threats in 40k are described from non-Imperial POV all the time. There is no way the Dark Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and so on are faked.




And here is what Volstagee on reddit said about Perpetual Oll Persson. He is a well-known and admired member of reddit and even posted here on this site.

Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.

That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.

When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.

Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.

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BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

Really? Not from most of the Horus Heresy books I have read. Most of that "war criminal" stuff turned out to be meme-ing after I read the Horus Heresy books.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again evil is a sliding scale. By modern standards the emperor is a war criminal and that's keeping it simple. In the context of the setting he was/is humanities best chance. By the standards of any time period, horrible father.

And I forgot say that the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate, and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex.

And others who where close to Horus told him he was lying to himself that that the Emperor WOULD have conquered them.

The fact is the Emperor was a ruthless conquerer who moved to conquer the galaxy, he stripped children from their families, to raise to be loyal warriors dedicated to the state and to him. he insisuted purges against entire population groups whose only crime was an accident of genetics or belief.

*reads up* ohh look in addition to the Emperor I've just described ADOLF HITLER!

So yeaaah by any modern measure of the term the Emperor was an evil son of a bitch

I have seen mostly nothing of what you said at all. Although the Horus Heresy books do take place near the end of the Crusade. So are you going to prove what you say or keep on meme-ing?

The Emperor treated the Word Bearers like crap, public humiliation & the destruction of Monarchia. It is no wonder that Lorgar fell to the seduction of the ruinious powers.

I made this thread to show the Emperor did do this.

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
The Emperor treated the Word Bearers like crap, public humiliation & the destruction of Monarchia. It is no wonder that Lorgar fell to the seduction of the ruinious powers.

Maybe he should have done what the Emperor said.

That said, Lorgar wasn't really seduced by the Ruinous Powers. He was told that they were gods and jumped on the bandwagon. No matter how the Emperor convinced the Emperor that he himself wasn't a god Lorgar would have fallen because he needed one and he had to force his truth onto everyone to prove himself right.

Only way Lorgar stays loyal is dying early enough or being allowed to worship the Emperor. And that's assuming nobody tells him about the Ruinous Powers in detail and he thinks they're more godlike than the Emperor.

This was not psychic power. This was genetic encoding.

The Emperor was not as psychically powerful as he liked to pretend. The evidence for this is that he never utilized that kind of psychic power against anything else ever.

He made the primarchs his genetic slaves. Space Marine genetics absorbed that. He could control them with the level of psychic power he actually had, but not other beings he didn't create from the ground up.

How is it the Emperor could beat up Primarchs, but then lose so badly to an Ork that he was moments from death before Horus/Dorn (it's been retconned) stepped in and curb stomped the same ork? Primarchs were genetically programmed to lose to him.

Find any example at all of the Emperor utilizing such amazing psychic potency that isn't from the perspective of a Primarch or Space Marine. It simply does not exist.

They were programmed to be his non-sentient tools and this his how their minds rationalized it.

Space Marines and Primarchs worship the emperor as all powerful. Why would you think their opinion on the man is in any way objective?

There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself. That's pretty impressive. There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
This was not psychic power. This was genetic encoding.

The Emperor was not as psychically powerful as he liked to pretend. The evidence for this is that he never utilized that kind of psychic power against anything else ever.

He made the primarchs his genetic slaves. Space Marine genetics absorbed that. He could control them with the level of psychic power he actually had, but not other beings he didn't create from the ground up.

How is it the Emperor could beat up Primarchs, but then lose so badly to an Ork that he was moments from death before Horus/Dorn (it's been retconned) stepped in and curb stomped the same ork? Primarchs were genetically programmed to lose to him.

Find any example at all of the Emperor utilizing such amazing psychic potency that isn't from the perspective of a Primarch or Space Marine. It simply does not exist.

They were programmed to be his non-sentient tools and this his how their minds rationalized it.

Space Marines and Primarchs worship the emperor as all powerful. Why would you think their opinion on the man is in any way objective?

No, the Emperor clearly forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power if you read the underlined parts. I think you are trolling. You know I'm right. Is that the best you can do? I expected something else.


I will show this part to educate you. And what you said does not make sense since half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against him. And he certainly could not control them, nor could he control Lorgar to stop worshiping him.



+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said

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pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself. That's pretty impressive. There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

Is Eternal trolling? Because I underlined the parts where he clearly forced them to kneel.








+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said.

Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are now able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are no able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

Yeah, Black Library does love to overpower the Emperor, but he still forced the Word Bearers to kneel. And half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against the Emperor, and he did not control them.

‘Now you die,’ said the Emperor, and ripped his blade up.

It was an awful, agonising, mortal wound. Electrical fire vented from hideous metal organs within the wreckage of the greenskin’s body. It was a murderous wound that not even a beast of such unimaginable proportions could take and live.

Yet that was not the worst of it.

Horus felt the build up of colossal psychic energies and shielded his eyes as a furious light built within the Emperor. Power like nothing he had ever seen his father wield, or even suspected he possessed. All consuming, all powerful, it was the power to extinguish life in every sphere of its existence. Physical flesh turned to ash before it and what ancient faiths had once called a soul was burned out of existence, never to cohere again.

Nothing would ever remain of he who suffered such a fate. Their body and soul would pass from the finite energy of the universe, to fade into memory and have all that they were wiped from the canvas of existence. This was as complete a death as it was possible to suffer.

[…]

That power blazed along the Emperor’s sword, filling the greenskin with killing light. It erupted in a bellowing golden explosion, and lightning blazed from the coruscating afterimage of its death, arcing from ork to ork as it sought out all those who were kin to the master of Gorro. Unimaginable energies poured from the Emperor, reaching throughout the entirety of the chamber and burning every last shred of alien flesh to a mist of drifting golden ash.

Horus watched as the power of life and death coursed through the Emperor, saw him swell in stature until he was like unto a god. Wreathed in pellucid amber flames, towering and majestic. His father never claimed to be a god, and refuted such notions with a vengeance. He had even castigated a son for believing what Horus now saw before him with his very own eyes…

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are no able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

Yeah, Black Library does love to overpower the Emperor, but he still forced the Word Bearers to kneel. And half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against the Emperor, and he did not control them.

I never said he did it well. He was too arrogant to ever believe his toys would ever be any kind of meaningful threat to him.

Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Clearly I haven't given enough credit to the Black Library authors as they are no able to convince real people with the fictional propaganda meant for fictional people.

Yeah, Black Library does love to overpower the Emperor, but he still forced the Word Bearers to kneel. And half of the Primarchs and Legions turned against the Emperor, and he did not control them.

I never said he did it well. He was too arrogant to ever believe his toys would ever be any kind of meaningful threat to him.

Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

No. He did not control the Primarchs and their Legions because its not slave coding. They have their own free will. That is shown by the Horus Heresy.



And I corrected you after showing the underlined parts.

It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself.

He never did such a thing. There were tens of thousands of people holding that breach, most of them on the wrong side of real-space.


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pm713 wrote:
There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

This was no longer the human Emperor by this point. This was the God-Emperor of Mankind with a trillions strong base of psychically active worshipers. Humans created four of the five Chaos Gods, remember.

Whether or not the Emperor and the God-Emperor are even the same being is a debate for another time though. (hint, the Horus Heresy series implies they are not).

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself.

He never did such a thing. There were tens of thousands of people holding that breach, most of them on the wrong side of real-space.



He did. And he DID force the Word Bearers to kneel with his power, as I have underlined in my quotes.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

This was no longer the human Emperor by this point. This was the God-Emperor of Mankind with a trillions strong base of psychically active worshipers. Humans created four of the five Chaos Gods, remember.

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Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

Nope. He very clearly forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power. I have underlined that numerous times and made it clear. And what about Magnus? The Emperor sent Russ to bring him back, and that was before he joined Chaos. There is no slave coding. The Primarchs have their own free will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

And as my quote shows, the Emperor sent the Word Bearers flying when he raised his voice. He is just so powerful/Godlike.

He made them kneel,but was that because they had special weakness encoded into them. Could he have made a whole planet kneel or a demon kneel? I see no evidence of primarchs having free will. They are either super keen to impress daddy or beat him and the traitor ones were all puppets of the dark gods who are infinitely more powerful than the emperor or any primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can’t trust a thing in those heresey books.

Andykp wrote:
He made them kneel,but was that because they had special weakness encoded into them. Could he have made a whole planet kneel or a demon kneel? I see no evidence of primarchs having free will. They are either super keen to impress daddy or beat him and the traitor ones were all puppets of the dark gods who are infinitely more powerful than the emperor or any primarch.

Special Weakneses? Says who? It was his own Godlike power.



And what about this quote? You still think its special weakness when his voice sent them flying?

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said.

And when the Primarchs joined Chaos, they did so willingly. Magnus went against the Emperor's wishes about messing with the warp when the Emperor told him not to do it.

Andykp wrote:
He made them kneel,but was that because they had special weakness encoded into them. Could he have made a whole planet kneel or a demon kneel?

Definitely not. If he had that kind of power, why did he send his armies to kill everyone with bullets?

There's simply no evidence that isn't tainted by the witness of the Emperor's supposed powers.

He was pretty good at invisibility and appearance alteration. He occasionally (like twice ever) used some kind of soul-destroying ability against a single target at each occurance. Heck, his own battlefield lightning throwing abilities were shown to be no better than Space Marine Librarians/Rune Priests/whatever heretical name they gave themselves.

We don't see him even use telepathy with someone more than a few miles away usually. Magnus came to him, not the other way around.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Andykp wrote:
He made them kneel,but was that because they had special weakness encoded into them. Could he have made a whole planet kneel or a demon kneel?

Definitely not. If he had that kind of power, why did he send his armies to kill everyone with bullets?

He definitely can. He made the Word Bearers kneel. And Lorgar had to kneel after. And he did mind control billions in the Vengeful Spirit book. And in the Vengeful Spirit book, he erased the memories of the Primarchs.



Alpha psykers can mind control planets. The Cacodominus mind controlled 1,300 systems.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said.

The primarchs were all manipulated into joining chaos as is everybody who does. The greatest trick those gods perform is to make you think you have free will when it’s all manipulation. Mortarion pleaded to nurgle when his fleet was rotting and dying. His free will? Lorgar was manipulated, they all were. Even Magnus was tricked in a very tzeentch way.

Andykp wrote:
He made them kneel,but was that because they had special weakness encoded into them. Could he have made a whole planet kneel or a demon kneel? I see no evidence of primarchs having free will. They are either super keen to impress daddy or beat him and the traitor ones were all puppets of the dark gods who are infinitely more powerful than the emperor or any primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can’t trust a thing in those heresey books.

How do you explain Magnus going against the Emperor's wishes in not messing with the warp. The Emperor wanted him to stop. And the Emperor mind controlled billions in the Vengeful Spirit book.



No offense, but are you guys stupid, being coy or just trolling? There is no debate. The Emperor forced them to kneel with his own power.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

Onething123456 wrote:
And he did mind control billions in the Vengeful Spirit book. And in the Vengeful Spirit book, he erased the memories of the Primarchs.

That wasn't psychic might, that was bureaucratic. He ordered everyone to stop mentioning them. He never did squat about altering people's memories.

Andykp wrote:
The primarchs were all manipulated into joining chaos as is everybody who does. The greatest trick those gods perform is to make you think you have free will when it’s all manipulation. Mortarion pleaded to nurgle when his fleet was rotting and dying. His free will? Lorgar was manipulated, they all were. Even Magnus was tricked in a very tzeentch way.

And Magnus still disobeyed the Emperor when messing with the warp in A Thousand Sons. No slave coding.



Please read this part below.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

The Emperor's voice sent them flying.

Onething123456 wrote:

How do you explain Magnus going against the Emperor's wishes in not messing with the warp.

Overconfidence.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And he did mind control billions in the Vengeful Spirit book. And in the Vengeful Spirit book, he erased the memories of the Primarchs.

That wasn't psychic might, that was bureaucratic. He ordered everyone to stop mentioning them. He never did squat about altering people's memories.

Can you prove that? It does say he erased the memories of the Primarchs about when he went into the Moloch gate. And a female Perpetual named Alivia witnessed him go into the Moloch gate.

You will never convince me to that the primarchs had freewill. Any of them but least of all the traitor ones. Magnus was duped into thinking him using the warp would save the empire from heresy. It didn’t. It did exactly what tzeentch wanted it to do. I’m not stupid I’m just open to ideas that the emperor isn’t a hero. I base this on 30years of playing this game a loving the back ground. The HH books aren’t gospel.

Yes, I can prove it because Dorn clearly remembers them when he suggests to Malcador that they utilize the redacted Legions.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

How do you explain Magnus going against the Emperor's wishes in not messing with the warp.

Overconfidence.

bs. You know I am right. He could have done that when he sent Russ to bring Magnus. I have underlined over and over the quotes I showed.


Please read the quote below. His voice sent them flying.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Yes, I can prove it because Dorn clearly remembers them when he suggests to Malcador that they utilize the redacted Legions.

The Emperor erased from the Primarchs minds about when he went into the Moloch gate. And a female Perpetual named Alivia witnessed him go into there.

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And he did mind control billions in the Vengeful Spirit book. And in the Vengeful Spirit book, he erased the memories of the Primarchs.

That wasn't psychic might, that was bureaucratic. He ordered everyone to stop mentioning them. He never did squat about altering people's memories.

Can you prove that? It does say he erased the memories of the Primarchs about when he went into the Moloch gate. And a female Perpetual named Alivia witnessed him go into the Moloch gate.

Don’t bring her up again. You’re not the first and it was hard work last time. It might say he did but can you trust that? And Horus knew he had been there and why did he try to destroy it if they couldn’t remember it?

He sent Russ to bring Magnus because he was too busy to care about doing it himself at the time.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
He sent Russ to bring Magnus because he was too busy to care about doing it himself at the time.

Just as tzeentch intended all along.

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And he did mind control billions in the Vengeful Spirit book. And in the Vengeful Spirit book, he erased the memories of the Primarchs.

That wasn't psychic might, that was bureaucratic. He ordered everyone to stop mentioning them. He never did squat about altering people's memories.

Can you prove that? It does say he erased the memories of the Primarchs about when he went into the Moloch gate. And a female Perpetual named Alivia witnessed him go into the Moloch gate.

Don’t bring her up again. You’re not the first and it was hard work last time. It might say he did but can you trust that? And Horus knew he had been there and why did he try to destroy it if they couldn’t remember it?

.

Yes, you can.





I have just fething proven the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his own power.





And Lorgar sought out new gods after the Emperor disgraced him.



PLEASE READ the below quote.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

Onething123456 wrote:

The Emperor erased from the Primarchs minds about when he went into the Moloch gate.

Using "powers" against the Primarchs who were his genetic slaves isn't exactly compelling evidence when those same "powers" did absolutely nothing to the normal humans who experienced the same thing.

And on what basis can you trust anything in HH books when the authors themselves state that you cannot.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
He sent Russ to bring Magnus because he was too busy to care about doing it himself at the time.

There is nothing suggesting the Primarchs had slave coding. Zip. I just schooled you in underlining the parts where it clearly shows the Emperor forced them to kneel with his power.




+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

Cased closed. I am right. There is nothing of "slave coding" in the quote.

And why is that quote the only one that matters. As eternal said show us where he does this to normal people.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

The Emperor erased from the Primarchs minds about when he went into the Moloch gate.

Using "powers" against the Primarchs who were his genetic slaves isn't exactly compelling evidence when those same "powers" did absolutely nothing to the normal humans who experienced the same thing.

You are just trolling at this point. And what you said does not make sense since that did not happen.




And fun fact, Darkness Eteernal. the Emperor's voice sent the Word Bearers flying.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said.

Andykp wrote:
And on what basis can you trust anything in HH books when the authors themselves state that you cannot.

That's a little too solipsistic.

The Horus Heresy series is mistitled, because it's not a series. There is no continuity across the whole of it, which is what the authors have stated numerous time. Each story is it's own pocket story of what might have happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

The Emperor erased from the Primarchs minds about when he went into the Moloch gate.

Using "powers" against the Primarchs who were his genetic slaves isn't exactly compelling evidence when those same "powers" did absolutely nothing to the normal humans who experienced the same thing.

You are just trolling at this point. And what you said does not make sense since that did not happen.

Uh, it happened in the very book you are citing as a source. There were regular people there with the Emperor when he went through that gate. They remember him doing it.

And your madness-mantra is pointless.

The key word here is “might”. I’m not saying that eternal theory is correct but I like it and it’s entirely possible. Nothing here disproves it reliably. I also like the theory that malcador was the real power and the emperor was just a front man or that the emperor was an old one in disguise. I’m open to all these ideas and none of them are true or false.

Andykp wrote:
And why is that quote the only one that matters. As eternal said show us where he does this to normal people.

No problem. The Emperor can mind control people. That is a psyker power. The Cacodominus did it with 1,300 systems, and his death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican. Alpha psykers have mind controlled planets.



And I just did. He mind controlled a planet population in the Vengeful Spirit book.

‘As you wish,’ said Revelation. ‘No more games.’
A golden light built behind Uriah and he saw his shadow thrown out onto the graven surface of the altar. The pearlescent hands of the clock shimmered in the reflected light and the ebony face gleamed.
Where once the church had been gloomy and filled with shadows, it was now a place of light.
Uriah pulled himself to his feet and turned to see a wondrous figure standing before him, towering and magnificent, clad in golden armour fashioned with love and the greatest skill, every plate embossed with thunderbolts and eagles.
Gone was Revelation, and in his place was a towering warrior of exquisite splendour, an exemplar of all that was regal and inspirational in humanity. The armour bulked his form out beyond measure and Uriah felt tears spilling from his eyes as he realised he had seen this breathtakingly, achingly perfect face once before.
On the killing fields of Gaduare.
‘You…’ breathed Uriah, stumbling back and collapsing onto his haunches. Pain shot through his hip and pelvis, but he barely felt it.
‘Now do you understand the futility of what you do here?’ said the golden giant.
Long dark hair spilled around the warrior’s face, a face that Uriah could only see through the hazy lens of memory. He could see the unremarkable features of Revelation subsumed into the warrior’s countenance, itself so worthy of devotion that it took all Uriah’s self-control not to drop to his knees and offer what remained of his life to its glorification.
‘You…’ repeated Uriah, the pain in his bones no match for the pain in his heart. ‘You are the… the… Emperor…’
‘I am, and it is time to go, Uriah,’ said the Emperor.

Pg.527 The Last Church - Tales of Heresy




Not mind controlling, but Uriah Olathaire had to use all his self control when the Emperor showed his glamour form.




And what the Emperor did with the Word Bearers is his own power. There is absolutely nothing suggesting slave coding in the Horus Heresy books.



And the Emperor is so arrogant that he didn't bother? Then he would be so arrogant that he would not bother with slave coding, as he thinks he is so good.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Andykp wrote:
And on what basis can you trust anything in HH books when the authors themselves state that you cannot.

That's a little too solipsistic.

The Horus Heresy series is mistitled, because it's not a series. There is no continuity across the whole of it, which is what the authors have stated numerous time. Each story is it's own pocket story of what might have happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

The Emperor erased from the Primarchs minds about when he went into the Moloch gate.

Using "powers" against the Primarchs who were his genetic slaves isn't exactly compelling evidence when those same "powers" did absolutely nothing to the normal humans who experienced the same thing.

You are just trolling at this point. And what you said does not make sense since that did not happen.

Uh, it happened in the very book you are citing as a source. There were regular people there with the Emperor when he went through that gate. They remember him doing it.

And your madness-mantra is pointless.

Regular people? He did not erase it from their minds because he did not want to. He erased it from the minds of the Primarchs.

I didn't bend this spoon with my mind because I didn't want to, but you have to just trust that I have vast psychic powers. - Uri Geller.

The Emperor was nothing if not fiction's greatest con-man.

U just don’t want to believe anything negative about the emperor. That quote about Uriah wetting his pants as the emperor did his glamour pose is nothing to do with this.

Just because something isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t happening and likewise just because you read it, it doesn’t make it true. It’s a version of events. Nothing more. The fact these other people can do that doesn’t prove the emperor can at all. I know people who can dead lift a car. I can’t!

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I didn't bend this spoon with my mind because I didn't want to, but you have to just trust that I have vast psychic powers. - Uri Geller.

The Emperor was nothing if not fiction's greatest con-man.

What does that have to do with what I'm talking about? The Emperor did not want to erase the memories of those humans.


And he CAN mind control because that is a psyker power. The Cacodominus mind controlled 1,300 systems with its power, and its death scream burned out the minds of a billion Astropaths. and distorted the signal of the Astronomican. And he forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power. I have proved that with the parts of my quotes I underlined.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.[/u]

Lorgar was defiant at the Emperor' psychic power when the Word Bearers fell to his power.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
U just don’t want to believe anything negative about the emperor. That quote about Uriah wetting his pants as the emperor did his glamour pose is nothing to do with this.

Just because something isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t happening and likewise just because you read it, it doesn’t make it true. It’s a version of events. Nothing more. The fact these other people can do that doesn’t prove the emperor can at all. I know people who can dead lift a car. I can’t!

But the burden of proof in on you to prove that the Primarchs and Legions had slave coding when they did not. There is nothing suggesting it. The burden in on you.


And fun fact: I just talked with Aaron Dembski-Bowden on reddit, and he said there is no slave coding and that the Primarchs have their own free will, and that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to keel with his power.

Congratulations, you have won the internet with your keen debate skills of just repeating yourself ad nauseam.

You are surely correct in all of your thoughts and actions, just like the Emperor you admire so much.

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I didn't bend this spoon with my mind because I didn't want to, but you have to just trust that I have vast psychic powers. - Uri Geller.

The Emperor was nothing if not fiction's greatest con-man.

What does that have to do with what I'm talking about? The Emperor did not want to erase the memories of those humans.


And he CAN mind control because that is a psyker power. The Cacodominus mind controlled 1,300 systems with its power, and its death scream burned out the minds of a billion Astropaths. and distorted the signal of the Astronomican. And he forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power. I have proved that with the parts of my quotes I underlined.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.[/u]

Lorgar was defiant at the Emperor' psychic power when the Word Bearers fell to his power.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
U just don’t want to believe anything negative about the emperor. That quote about Uriah wetting his pants as the emperor did his glamour pose is nothing to do with this.

Just because something isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t happening and likewise just because you read it, it doesn’t make it true. It’s a version of events. Nothing more. The fact these other people can do that doesn’t prove the emperor can at all. I know people who can dead lift a car. I can’t!

But the burden of proof in on you to prove that the Primarchs and Legions had slave coding when they did not. There is nothing suggesting it. The burden in on you.


And fun fact: I just talked with Aaron Dembski-Bowden on reddit, and he said there is no slave coding and that the Primarchs have their own free will, and that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to keel with his power.

Wow. Just wow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Congratulations, you have won the internet with your keen debate skills of just repeating yourself ad nauseam.

You are surely correct in all of your thoughts and actions, just like the Emperor you admire so much.

To be fair he could be twelve or something, but still. Wow.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Congratulations, you have won the internet with your keen debate skills of just repeating yourself ad nauseam.

You are surely correct in all of your thoughts and actions, just like the Emperor you admire so much.

No. I don't think much of the Emperor. I am a Sanguinius and Perpetual Oll Persson fan.



And Congratulations. You have ignored the various quotes I have shown and proven, and just proven you are not interested in proving I am wrong, or admitting you are wrong, but trolling.


Did you read the below quote? I have posted before. The Emperor's voice sent them flying.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I didn't bend this spoon with my mind because I didn't want to, but you have to just trust that I have vast psychic powers. - Uri Geller.

The Emperor was nothing if not fiction's greatest con-man.

What does that have to do with what I'm talking about? The Emperor did not want to erase the memories of those humans.


And he CAN mind control because that is a psyker power. The Cacodominus mind controlled 1,300 systems with its power, and its death scream burned out the minds of a billion Astropaths. and distorted the signal of the Astronomican. And he forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power. I have proved that with the parts of my quotes I underlined.

+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.[/u]

Lorgar was defiant at the Emperor' psychic power when the Word Bearers fell to his power.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
U just don’t want to believe anything negative about the emperor. That quote about Uriah wetting his pants as the emperor did his glamour pose is nothing to do with this.

Just because something isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t happening and likewise just because you read it, it doesn’t make it true. It’s a version of events. Nothing more. The fact these other people can do that doesn’t prove the emperor can at all. I know people who can dead lift a car. I can’t!

But the burden of proof in on you to prove that the Primarchs and Legions had slave coding when they did not. There is nothing suggesting it. The burden in on you.


And fun fact: I just talked with Aaron Dembski-Bowden on reddit, and he said there is no slave coding and that the Primarchs have their own free will, and that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to keel with his power.

Wow. Just wow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Congratulations, you have won the internet with your keen debate skills of just repeating yourself ad nauseam.

You are surely correct in all of your thoughts and actions, just like the Emperor you admire so much.

To be fair he could be twelve or something, but still. Wow.

I am actually 20. And what do you mean "wow"? I did not do anything wrong or abnormal. I was just saying you need to prove the Primarchs have slave coding, and that I talked with ADB. You said they have slave coding.

Really!! That quote again!! It proves nothing. Only that in that version of events from from that unreliable narrator that happened. It doesn’t mean that is the only version of events. By any means. U are missing the point massively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually feel,sorry for you mate. I don’t know who you are but I won’t argue with anymore. It’s nit fair.

Andykp wrote:
Really!! That quote again!! It proves nothing. Only that in that version of events from from that unreliable narrator that happened. It doesn’t mean that is the only version of events. By any means. U are missing the point massively.

Unreliable narrators? Everything is told from unreliable narrators. I'm well aware of that, and that there is no canon in 40k. We can interpret the setting in our own way.




"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."

Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."

Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW (in the comments)
"There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."

Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library



http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/


https://www.facebook.com/notes/the-lord-inquisitor/interview-with-aaron-dembski-bowden/493311764034081/

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/heresy-black-legion-chatter-in-the-mail-this-morning/



I talked with ADB. He said there is no slave coding. But there is no canon.

It’s ok mate.

Andykp wrote:
It’s ok mate.

Thats what makes 40k so cool, is it not? Its all told from unreliable Narrators. We can interpret the setting in our own way. The narration for The First Heretic says the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power and sent them flying with his voice, but its possible that did not happen as everything in 40k is told form unreliable narrators.

It is. That’s the point we have all been trying to make.

Andykp wrote:
It is. That’s the point we have all been trying to make.

Then we are cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And he did mind control billions in the Vengeful Spirit book. And in the Vengeful Spirit book, he erased the memories of the Primarchs.

That wasn't psychic might, that was bureaucratic. He ordered everyone to stop mentioning them. He never did squat about altering people's memories.

The First Heretic says the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power and sent them flying with his voice, but everything is told from unreliable narrators in 40k.



And he did not want to erase the memories of those humans who went with him in the Vengeful Spirit. And he mind controlled a planet population in the Vengeful Spirit book.


And mind control is a psyker power. Alpha psykers can mind control plantes, and the Cacodominus



http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Lord_Cherubael/media/bWVkaWFJZDoxMjU2NTU4ODc=/?ref=




5th edition core rulebook said: 401.M34 Black Templar Space Marines end the Catelexis Heresy by executing the Cacodominus, an alien cyborg whose formidable psychic presence allowed it to control the populace of thirteen hundred planetary systems. Alas, the Cacodominus' death scream echoes and amplifies through the Warp, burning out the minds of a billion astropaths and distorting the signal of the Astronomican. Millions upon Millions of ships are lost in the resulting upheaval and entire sub-sectors slide into barbarism without the dictats of the Adeptus Terra to guide them.




And a planetary poplulation mind controlled.





“Kor’sarro had witnessed even warlike orks fall back in the face of such a barrage. He had known tyranid bio-organisms, bred for nothing but war, to falter against such a weight of firepower. He had seen only two types of foe continue forwards against such odds. On the third moon of Woebetide, whilst serving as a Scout many decades before, he had faced an Enslaver plague, and watched as ten thousand mind-slaved meat puppets, each formally a stoic Cadian shock trooper, were compelled by their alien masters to cross a minefield a hundred kilometres deep into the combined fire of the White Scars, Red Hunters and Celestial Lions Chapters. The other occasion had been on Delta Arbuthnot, when a potent, alpha-level psyker had forced an entire planetary population of ratling agri-serfs to rise up against the landowners in an orgy of bloodshed, even though they were armed with no more than shovels and their foes with automatic weapons.” -Hunt for Voldorius, p.157


+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

‘You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.’

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

‘You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.’

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn’t discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,’ he said.


But everything is told from unreliable narrators. So its a matter of interpretation.

I always kinda assumed that the Ork almost killing the Emperor only to be saved by Horus right before the Emperor hands the rest of the crusade to Horus and go work on the webway was him BSing Horus to give him a confidence boost. Whether it worked is debatable. As for the Emperor not going over board with psychic powers to often is in character. He was clearly very wary of the warp and wanted to limit humanities reliance on it as much as possible. For all his arrogance, I think part of him realized that even he could have a problem if he pushed himself to far. That to me has always been the best explanation to why Horus beat him before he finally stopped messing around and deleted him from existence, the Emperor held back as long as he could before he burned away not just Horus but a good chunk of the chaos gods.

Did you read the quote I posted where the Emperor annihilated the Ork with power Horus had not seen in him after that? And other Orks. Hous saw in the Emperor what Lorgar saw after that happened and when he was annihilating the Ork. And I've made it clear the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power. And DarknessEternal knows I'm right. He basically admitted that when he said it was an unreliable In-universe source. And the Emperor erased the memories of the Primarchs about the Moloch gate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I thought the "and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it." was clear along with his voice sending them flying and "no matter that many hearts fought not to obey."

Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

Yeah Emperor planned to get rid of the marines so made sure they would kill enough of each other to be easily finished up. What better way to do that than have about 50-50 fight...Albeit legions didn't split 100% as he planned but c'est'la'vie

tneva82 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
It’s an interesting idea though isn’t it. It could be that the traitor primarchs and marines may have had their slave coding or whatever bypassed by the chaos powers when they turned. That would explain why they were winning and it could even explain why horus allowed the emperor and co to teleport onto his ship? I like it.

The arrogance thing works too. He killed off his thunder warriors and he needed to really kill off the marines. Why not let them do it them selves. Eternal, I like the idea. The emperor was clearly a powerful psyker but maybe more in a passive, astronomical non guiding light kind of way.

Yeah Emperor planned to get rid of the marines so made sure they would kill enough of each other to be easily finished up. What better way to do that than have about 50-50 fight...Albeit legions didn't split 100% as he planned but c'est'la'vie

Honestly, the biggest problem with his plan was the sheer size of the Ultramarines...

I'm a bit leery of the whole slave encoding theory because many of the Primarchs that turned traitor either did so before being influenced by Chaos or were never influenced by Chaos at all. It seems a bit of a stretch to imagine they could go traitor if the Emperor baked in some kind of slave encorsing bit. Take Konrad Cruze, he was a crazy SOB that went full on traitor but never started worshiping chaos. And I remember reading some short stories were in the early days after being discovered that many of the primarchs that ended up turning were very surely/insubordinate such as Mortarion, who is also a good example of a Primarch that went traitor before falling to chaos.

Honestly I don't think this comes down to anything more than bad writing, which lets be honest, is something that the Black Library has in spades. I don't think they ever sat down and came to some agreed upon power level for the Emperor so you get all kinds of inconsistencies in the writing. I really have a hard time believing that the Black Library writers are so clever that there is some hidden explanation for every time the Emperor does something that seems really over powered compared to other times when he is written as being much less powerful.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's the part where he seals the Throne breach by himself.

He never did such a thing. There were tens of thousands of people holding that breach, most of them on the wrong side of real-space.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
There's also the reaction of the Harlequins who sneak into the Palace in the Beast War.

This was no longer the human Emperor by this point. This was the God-Emperor of Mankind with a trillions strong base of psychically active worshipers. Humans created four of the five Chaos Gods, remember.

Whether or not the Emperor and the God-Emperor are even the same being is a debate for another time though. (hint, the Horus Heresy series implies they are not).

As I remember there was the part after the fighting in the Webway where the Emperor was holding it shut and that's why Malcador had to sit on the Throne for a bit later on. Am I wrong?

Five Chaos Gods? Is the fifth one still a thing?

Its blatantly obvious it wasn't slave coding (even ignoring that does not exist within the Primarchs) since its clear the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel with his power with the underlined parts I showed. And slave coding would not make the Word Bearers go flying, as I have quoted. And the Emperor does appear as a Godlike heavenly being radiating a heavenly golden light.

I’m not totally so,d on slave coding or whatever you call it but I like the idea. The radiant glow and heavenly apperarance were just as how, a mind trick. He was really a wrinkly old dude I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, other psykers being able to mind control whole planets doesn’t mean he could. Not all psykers are equal.

Andykp wrote:
I’m not totally so,d on slave coding or whatever you call it but I like the idea. The radiant glow and heavenly apperarance were just as how, a mind trick. He was really a wrinkly old dude I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, other psykers being able to mind control whole planets doesn’t mean he could. Not all psykers are equal.

The First Heretic says he forced them to kneel with his power, but everything is told from unreliable narrators. And many Primarchs decided to join Chaos before they were Chaos tainted.



The Emperor is a young looking man. The Perpetuals are.

You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

Andykp wrote:
You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

And everything is told from unreliable narrators.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

And everything is told from unreliable narrators.

So,why are so certain about these things?

Andykp wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
You make claims of such certainty which is odd in a fictional setting with so many conflicting sources that certainty is impossible and deliberately so to the point we are on occasion mislead by design.

And everything is told from unreliable narrators.

So,why are so certain about these things?

I am not. I'm saying that the books say that, but everything is told from unreliable narrators.

If you know everything in the books is ipunreliable why do unfeelmsomcertain that a few quotes proves what you believe?

Andykp wrote:
If you know everything in the books is ipunreliable why do unfeelmsomcertain that a few quotes proves what you believe?

Its just what the books say. But everything is told from unreliable narrators.

That makes no sense.

Andykp wrote:
That makes no sense.

The books say what they do, but everything is told from unreliable narrators, so there is mostly no true interpretation.

Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

He used the Astronomican to create the fire of angels in Talon of Horus.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

But they won't. As it stands one Chaos God teaming up with another gives them the power to eliminate one of the others but they won't because they're all selfish beings. If Khorne killed the Emperor he'd be so weakened by it then he'd die soon after so he wouldn't ever do it. But the Emperor is supposed to be the saviour of humanity so if he can kill Chaos then he'd do it.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

But they won't. As it stands one Chaos God teaming up with another gives them the power to eliminate one of the others but they won't because they're all selfish beings. If Khorne killed the Emperor he'd be so weakened by it then he'd die soon after so he wouldn't ever do it. But the Emperor is supposed to be the saviour of humanity so if he can kill Chaos then he'd do it.

How do you know they won't. You can't possibly know that. Chaos' number 1 plan is to get rid of the Emperor, they even have a daemon just for the job, the end of empires. Keeping the Emperor alive only hurts the Chaos gods. As for the Emperor killing the gods, there is no lore saying that they can even die, Slaanesh existed before his birth so we know they are probably eternal. He might be able to reduce their powers into a dormant state like Slaanesh.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

But they won't. As it stands one Chaos God teaming up with another gives them the power to eliminate one of the others but they won't because they're all selfish beings. If Khorne killed the Emperor he'd be so weakened by it then he'd die soon after so he wouldn't ever do it. But the Emperor is supposed to be the saviour of humanity so if he can kill Chaos then he'd do it.

How do you know they won't. You can't possibly know that. Chaos' number 1 plan is to get rid of the Emperor, they even have a daemon just for the job, the end of empires. Keeping the Emperor alive only hurts the Chaos gods. As for the Emperor killing the gods, there is no lore saying that they can even die, Slaanesh existed before his birth so we know they are probably eternal. He might be able to reduce their powers into a dormant state like Slaanesh.

I just explained why. Equally you can't know they won't. Slaanesh also didn't exist before it's birth at the same time and other gods died so Chaos can too.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

But they won't. As it stands one Chaos God teaming up with another gives them the power to eliminate one of the others but they won't because they're all selfish beings. If Khorne killed the Emperor he'd be so weakened by it then he'd die soon after so he wouldn't ever do it. But the Emperor is supposed to be the saviour of humanity so if he can kill Chaos then he'd do it.

How do you know they won't. You can't possibly know that. Chaos' number 1 plan is to get rid of the Emperor, they even have a daemon just for the job, the end of empires. Keeping the Emperor alive only hurts the Chaos gods. As for the Emperor killing the gods, there is no lore saying that they can even die, Slaanesh existed before his birth so we know they are probably eternal. He might be able to reduce their powers into a dormant state like Slaanesh.

I just explained why. Equally you can't know they won't. Slaanesh also didn't exist before it's birth at the same time and other gods died so Chaos can too.

You didn't explain why, Khorne wouldn't suffer as he'll always have the other gods and their followers to fight. I never said that he wouldn't kill the gods. Slaanesh did exist before he was born. No other chaos gods died.

I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

It is in no way the chaos gods number one priority to kill the emperor. Which ever theory you prefer. I happen to prefer the starchild theory where his soul is dispersed through the warp and all that remains is the starchild. So he’s already dead give or take a few cells, so it’s a moot point. But that is why the gods don’t destroy the emperor. They can’t find him.

I dont actually think I can cope with delv and onething in the one discussion, both of us are far too literal in your interpretation of the literature. Preheresey he was no match for a major god of chaos, the only reason they didn’t just kill him was that they are limited to acting in the immaterium.

And onething, you argue that what the books say is true beyond doubt then admit that it’s all uncertain at the same time it can’t be both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

A blind person says they can see because some evangelical person puts there hands on them, a room full of people believe they can talk to the dead, a decent hypnotist could do that trick not just a god. Doubt everything U read. The more I hear about the HH books with more I think they are the worst thing to happen to the background. Even though the people behind them tell everyone not to take it as gospel too many people do.

Yeah, at best HH should be regarded to be about as accurate as historical fiction.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Yeah, at best HH should be regarded to be about as accurate as historical fiction.

That’s how I see it but unless it’s stated on the cover some people, you know who you are


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this whole blowing people around with his voice and forcing superhumans to kneel on mass thing, if he was sooo string and good how did anyone against ever stand a chance. Even traitor types.

And delvarious if he was as powerful as a chaos god how come horus, infused with some of their power was kicking his ass and should’ve won had he not been a daddies boy at the end, or been distracted. If the emperor was a god equivalent force he should have just smote (smited) horus on sight. (Biblical sense not table too power sense).

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Yeah, at best HH should be regarded to be about as accurate as historical fiction.

And the same goes for all books in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
Yeah, at best HH should be regarded to be about as accurate as historical fiction.

That’s how I see it but unless it’s stated on the cover some people, you know who you are


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this whole blowing people around with his voice and forcing superhumans to kneel on mass thing, if he was sooo string and good how did anyone against ever stand a chance. Even traitor types.

And delvarious if he was as powerful as a chaos god how come horus, infused with some of their power was kicking his ass and should’ve won had he not been a daddies boy at the end, or been distracted. If the emperor was a god equivalent force he should have just smote (smited) horus on sight. (Biblical sense not table too power sense).

The First Heretic said he sent them flying with his voice. But everything is unreliable.






"+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

'You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.'

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

'You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.'

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn't discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,' he said."


And of course if there was slave coding then Lorgar would have kneeled when the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel, but he kept on going and ignoring it even when the Emperor's voice sent them flying.




And I say that is what the book says, and unreliable as everything else.

Then why bring it up every five minutes???

Andykp wrote:
Then why bring it up every five minutes???

I don't. But someone else brought it up and I responded.


Are you doing alright? What new stuff have you read?

Reading dark eldar trilogy by Andy chambers. Very good. Much better than that HH stuff you’ve been reading. Recommend you get into it.

Andykp wrote:
Reading dark eldar trilogy by Andy chambers. Very good. Much better than that HH stuff you’ve been reading. Recommend you get into it.

I think the 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




And Voltstagge on reddit explained why he thinks Perpetual Oll Persson works.


But yeah. Some stuff in the HH books are bad. The Imperial Truth was added to the HH books.

pm713 wrote:
I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

How on earth does that weaken Khorne...

Word Bearers I hold very little sympathy for. They misinterpreted the imperial truth and didn't realize how foolish they were or childish.

Andykp wrote:
It is in no way the chaos gods number one priority to kill the emperor. Which ever theory you prefer. I happen to prefer the starchild theory where his soul is dispersed through the warp and all that remains is the starchild. So he’s already dead give or take a few cells, so it’s a moot point. But that is why the gods don’t destroy the emperor. They can’t find him.

I dont actually think I can cope with delv and onething in the one discussion, both of us are far too literal in your interpretation of the literature. Preheresey he was no match for a major god of chaos, the only reason they didn’t just kill him was that they are limited to acting in the immaterium.

And onething, you argue that what the books say is true beyond doubt then admit that it’s all uncertain at the same time it can’t be both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

A blind person says they can see because some evangelical person puts there hands on them, a room full of people believe they can talk to the dead, a decent hypnotist could do that trick not just a god. Doubt everything U read. The more I hear about the HH books with more I think they are the worst thing to happen to the background. Even though the people behind them tell everyone not to take it as gospel too many people do.

The Emperor was the equal of the gods preheresy, he was since the DAOT, where he made the deal on Molech. They couldn't kill him because they 'couldn't', there were many daemon possessions on earth, they still couldn't kill him. Just because they couldn't, you can't just infer that the only reason they couldn't is due to the limit of their reach and just somehow assert that he wasn't a match for them, nowhere in the lore does it suggest that, apart from before the DAOT, but the Gods most likely weren't even aware of him as he was able to trick them or overpower them for their power (two sources for that) You don't know. Yeah we actually know the lore, that's why you don't like us quoting it, you just make stuff up and defend it by saying 'subtlety/nuance'. etc. Your argument here just shows that, you are just saying what you think, regardless of the lore and asserting it as fact. I like to formulate arguments in keeping with the lore, you just like to say whatever you want and if someone contradicts you using the lore you just say they are being too literal.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

By your logic Kaldor Dragio is on par with a chaos god

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

By your logic Kaldor Dragio is on par with a chaos god

Kaldor Draigo doesn't hold back the Chaos gods. I never based my argument on only that he exists in the warp, I was pointing out a logical fallacy in that reply. Plus Draigo probably hit and runs trying to find the hams, the Gods know how to get to the Emperor, just follow the massive torch light

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

By your logic Kaldor Dragio is on par with a chaos god

Kaldor Draigo doesn't hold back the Chaos gods. I never based my argument on only that he exists in the warp, I was pointing out a logical fallacy in that reply. Plus Draigo probably hit and runs trying to find the hams, the Gods know how to get to the Emperor, just follow the massive torch light

yeah but it's funny to argue that Dragio is more powerful then chaos

regarding the emperor though, I think there is something more then just "he so powerful" consider, the Grey Knights and Custodes who are both infused with some of his "essence" are effectively uncorruptable. And what does Chaos call him "Anathema" this is a pretty strong word, one that was historicly used to refer to an excuommunicated person, but effectively meant associated with evilk, utterly opposed etc, I've come to the conclusion that SOMETHING about the Emperor whatever it is, is the complete antithesis of chaos. So strongly opposed they actually have trouble directly approuching him. Now what this means he is... I dunno, an Nascient god of order maybe?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Sevatar lost his vision for a week just by looking at the Emperor. Normal humans could go blind for life looking at him. The Emperor powered and directed the astronomicum while fighting in the Great Crusade. He held back Chaos and still does. He is obviously as powerful as the Chaos gods, otherwise they'd be able to kill him in the warp and not be held back from them, deamons instantly die in the beam of the astronomicum. If anything his power has been downplayed in the HH novels.

Probably because after the Heresy he starts getting worshipped by a galaxy.

He's not as powerful as the Chaos Gods otherwise he'd take them out. He might be as strong as one or two and that's why they haven't killed him.

He's at least as powerful as one God but I mean he rains down ass kicking in the warp and exists in the warp so, he's on par with all the gods it seems.

By that logic the chaos gods are not as powerful as the emperor because they could just take him out.

By your logic Kaldor Dragio is on par with a chaos god

Kaldor Draigo doesn't hold back the Chaos gods. I never based my argument on only that he exists in the warp, I was pointing out a logical fallacy in that reply. Plus Draigo probably hit and runs trying to find the hams, the Gods know how to get to the Emperor, just follow the massive torch light

yeah but it's funny to argue that Dragio is more powerful then chaos

regarding the emperor though, I think there is something more then just "he so powerful" consider, the Grey Knights and Custodes who are both infused with some of his "essence" are effectively uncorruptable. And what does Chaos call him "Anathema" this is a pretty strong word, one that was historicly used to refer to an excuommunicated person, but effectively meant associated with evilk, utterly opposed etc, I've come to the conclusion that SOMETHING about the Emperor whatever it is, is the complete antithesis of chaos. So strongly opposed they actually have trouble directly approuching him. Now what this means he is... I dunno, an Nascient god of order maybe?

Thought the exact same with him being called anathema, I mean with all the threats to chaos: the tyranids, the necrons, the orks (though Khorne does love him some orks), yet they call one man the anatheme, you have to take that seriously.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Word Bearers I hold very little sympathy for. They misinterpreted the imperial truth and didn't realize how foolish they were or childish.

"Misinterpreted" is being extremely kind.

Rare pict-capture footage of the Emperor explaining the Imperial Truth to the Word Bearers:


EDIT: And I agree with Brian and Delvarus. 'Anathema' is significant. It literally means something 'offered up' to the divine and therefore untouchable by the profane. From the PoV of the Chaos Powers, 'Untouchable' or 'Incorruptible' seem like decent translations. For all that some people these days seem to want to see the Emperor as just some stupid power-hungry tyrant, it seems fairly important that even the Chaos Gods genuinely see him as something unique. A psyker as powerful as the Emperor is ought to be very easily corrupted (the Imperium generally kills Alpha-Plus psykers on sight for good reason), and yet the Chaos Gods can't touch him and daemons dissolve or go mad in his presence. The simplest explanation is that he is just utterly selfless (which does not, of course, imply 'nice', or even 'good'), so that there is nothing of Chaos (i.e. selfish emotion) in him. There's just nothing there for Chaos to get its hooks into.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Word Bearers I hold very little sympathy for. They misinterpreted the imperial truth and didn't realize how foolish they were or childish.

"Misinterpreted" is being extremely kind.

Rare pict-capture footage of the Emperor explaining the Imperial Truth to the Word Bearers:

Spoiler:

The word bearers went the way of the shoe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk

.. Does that mean THIS is the emperor on the Golden Throne?

Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Word Bearers I hold very little sympathy for. They misinterpreted the imperial truth and didn't realize how foolish they were or childish.

"Misinterpreted" is being extremely kind.

Rare pict-capture footage of the Emperor explaining the Imperial Truth to the Word Bearers:

Spoiler:

EDIT: And I agree with Brian and Delvarus. 'Anathema' is significant. It literally means something 'offered up' to the divine and therefore untouchable by the profane. From the PoV of the Chaos Powers, 'Untouchable' or 'Incorruptible' seem like decent translations. For all that some people these days seem to want to see the Emperor as just some stupid power-hungry tyrant, it seems fairly important that even the Chaos Gods genuinely see him as something unique. A psyker as powerful as the Emperor is ought to be very easily corrupted (the Imperium generally kills Alpha-Plus psykers on sight for good reason), and yet the Chaos Gods can't touch him and daemons dissolve or go mad in his presence. The simplest explanation is that he is just utterly selfless (which does not, of course, imply 'nice', or even 'good'), so that there is nothing of Chaos (i.e. selfish emotion) in him. There's just nothing there for Chaos to get its hooks into.

I wonder if this explains why he was able to enter the realm of chaos and leave again, horus had the will of the chaos gods backing him, he still had to fight while in there as chaos is gonna chaos, but the emperor didn’t even have that.

I also find it interesting that the concept of the emperor being utterly selfless, as you say this doesn’t make him “nice”.

Andykp wrote:
Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

There is lore that the Emperor got his powers from Molech so you are wrong that he was not a match for the gods pre-heresy. There is no lore on your part, you are just making stuff up. No where in the lore does it state that the Emperor was weaker preheresy, you just assume he is. Plus he could power the astronomicum and direct it while fighting in the great crusade, now on the throne he needs 10,000 psykers a day to power and direct it and a thousand to sustain his body. Now you just continue your normal speel of 'I hate quotes.' Yet in your next reply you will just repeat there is no lore and ignore all the points that show you are wrong or say 'nuance' 'read between the lines' etc. You always do this.

"That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think." Like I've said multiple times, show me a quote where they are irrelevant. Again there is lore against what you said. You are wrong to think the Emperor was weaker pre-heresy even though all the lore contradicts that.

Andykp wrote:
Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

If there is no lore, at all ever, why bother going to a lore forum man?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

How on earth does that weaken Khorne...

You think killing another god is easy?

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

How on earth does that weaken Khorne...

You think killing another god is easy?

That's not what I asked.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

How on earth does that weaken Khorne...

You think killing another god is easy?

That's not what I asked.

It does answer it. Killing another god is bound to expend some level of power. Therefore killing the Emperor would weaken whoever does it. Unless you want to argue that the Emperor is a little weakling? This isn't hard.

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

If there is no lore, at all ever, why bother going to a lore forum man?

It’s not a lore forum it’s a background forum. There is a back ground full of different mysteries and myths, theories and conspiracies. A series of books has told a story but all involved have said it isn’t a diffinative story. It’s a version of events. I’m here to discuss the ideas people have. And do. I have heard some great ideas on here but one or two individuals who have missed the point above keep shooting people down and saying they are wrong. If we aren’t carful this forum could become a space where only the people who buy into the black library HH version of events hang out and we will have lost a lot of the magic from the setting.

I could quote all sorts of sources for some of the theories I prefer but I would be told that they are too old or not canon like the HH books. So I don’t bother. I like to discuss things people have seen things in the stories that may require a diferent look what’s happened. I personally feel that ,thanks to the book series and forgeworlds work, too much emphasis is put on the HH. It was massive and integral to the state of the imperium but has little bearing on the other races in the galaxy. ORKS don’t care, eldar would pos see it as dangerous monkey meddling with stuff beyond their ken and the necrons were asleep. To chaos it was one play in a very long game.

Del I haven’t changed your arguemnet, you just quote books as fact that have been pointed out to you aren’t fact by the publishers and authors own admissions. It doesn’t matter what any one other than the blacklibrary authors say i their stories you won’t accept. I personally like to consider all theories, like the slave code stuff above, and the one where the emperor planned the heresey. The stories coming from black library don’t interest me as they present a very simplistic and dull. Also I thought we all told you we didn’t know what happened at moloch? I’m sure we have had that discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

How on earth does that weaken Khorne...

You think killing another god is easy?

That's not what I asked.

It does answer it. Killing another god is bound to expend some level of power. Therefore killing the Emperor would weaken whoever does it. Unless you want to argue that the Emperor is a little weakling? This isn't hard.

Horus killed the emperor and he wasn’t a god.

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

If there is no lore, at all ever, why bother going to a lore forum man?

It’s not a lore forum it’s a background forum. There is a back ground full of different mysteries and myths, theories and conspiracies. A series of books has told a story but all involved have said it isn’t a diffinative story. It’s a version of events. I’m here to discuss the ideas people have. And do. I have heard some great ideas on here but one or two individuals who have missed the point above keep shooting people down and saying they are wrong. If we aren’t carful this forum could become a space where only the people who buy into the black library HH version of events hang out and we will have lost a lot of the magic from the setting.

I could quote all sorts of sources for some of the theories I prefer but I would be told that they are too old or not canon like the HH books. So I don’t bother. I like to discuss things people have seen things in the stories that may require a diferent look what’s happened. I personally feel that ,thanks to the book series and forgeworlds work, too much emphasis is put on the HH. It was massive and integral to the state of the imperium but has little bearing on the other races in the galaxy. ORKS don’t care, eldar would pos see it as dangerous monkey meddling with stuff beyond their ken and the necrons were asleep. To chaos it was one play in a very long game.

Del I haven’t changed your arguemnet, you just quote books as fact that have been pointed out to you aren’t fact by the publishers and authors own admissions. It doesn’t matter what any one other than the blacklibrary authors say i their stories you won’t accept. I personally like to consider all theories, like the slave code stuff above, and the one where the emperor planned the heresey. The stories coming from black library don’t interest me as they present a very simplistic and dull. Also I thought we all told you we didn’t know what happened at moloch? I’m sure we have had that discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

How on earth does that weaken Khorne...

You think killing another god is easy?

That's not what I asked.

It does answer it. Killing another god is bound to expend some level of power. Therefore killing the Emperor would weaken whoever does it. Unless you want to argue that the Emperor is a little weakling? This isn't hard.

Horus killed the emperor and he wasn’t a god.

He was made a god or godlike depending on your take after he visited Molech. He got powers there that made him a match for the Emperor.

I don't quote books as facts, I quote factual claims/incidents in books as fact. You use the 'I like to discus the nuance.' everytime you are proven wrong. There are factual claims in fiction, you pretend there isn't so you can get out of being wrong. If you can't understand that some things in a fictional book are expressed as facts, there is literally no point in discussing anything with you other than points in the books where it is implicit. You were all wrong about Molech, I said Horus got powers there though we don't know exactly what those powers were. You all contradicted that, then forgot you did and ended up agreeing with my original statement, it was very comical. Anyone can read that thread, I encourage anyone reading this to have a read.

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

If there is no lore, at all ever, why bother going to a lore forum man?

It’s not a lore forum it’s a background forum. There is a back ground full of different mysteries and myths, theories and conspiracies. A series of books has told a story but all involved have said it isn’t a diffinative story. It’s a version of events. I’m here to discuss the ideas people have. And do. I have heard some great ideas on here but one or two individuals who have missed the point above keep shooting people down and saying they are wrong. If we aren’t carful this forum could become a space where only the people who buy into the black library HH version of events hang out and we will have lost a lot of the magic from the setting.

I could quote all sorts of sources for some of the theories I prefer but I would be told that they are too old or not canon like the HH books. So I don’t bother. I like to discuss things people have seen things in the stories that may require a diferent look what’s happened. I personally feel that ,thanks to the book series and forgeworlds work, too much emphasis is put on the HH. It was massive and integral to the state of the imperium but has little bearing on the other races in the galaxy. ORKS don’t care, eldar would pos see it as dangerous monkey meddling with stuff beyond their ken and the necrons were asleep. To chaos it was one play in a very long game.

Del I haven’t changed your arguemnet, you just quote books as fact that have been pointed out to you aren’t fact by the publishers and authors own admissions. It doesn’t matter what any one other than the blacklibrary authors say i their stories you won’t accept. I personally like to consider all theories, like the slave code stuff above, and the one where the emperor planned the heresey. The stories coming from black library don’t interest me as they present a very simplistic and dull. Also I thought we all told you we didn’t know what happened at moloch? I’m sure we have had that discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'll make it simple for you. Khorne kill Emperor. Khorne weakened by fight. Other gods kill Khorne. So Khorne never kill Emperor because he dies too if he does.

How on earth does that weaken Khorne...

You think killing another god is easy?

That's not what I asked.

It does answer it. Killing another god is bound to expend some level of power. Therefore killing the Emperor would weaken whoever does it. Unless you want to argue that the Emperor is a little weakling? This isn't hard.

Horus killed the emperor and he wasn’t a god.

He didn't do a very thorough job considering the Emperor's alive. Besides he was filled with the power of 4 gods at the time.

Del unobvosously read threads like you do books. No one changed their opinion about what you said and you proved no one wrong. Certainly not me. Because I don’t claim to KNOW anything for sure. How do address the fact that the nooks you rely on for your arguments aren’t a diffinative version of events? The writers and publishers say you shouldn’t trust the things in them. So your quotes, whist interesting don’t prove anything other than that that is a version of what happened.

I don’t use nuisance and interpretation as a way of disguising that I am wrong. It’s just a part of reading and living in a world with other people.

If Horus was a god and the emperor was a god, it’s gett8ng very marvel like and not to my tastes. I prefer the theory that the emperor was a very very powerful psyker and that Horus was a very powerful vessel of chaos. Neither were gods.

U say the emperor was as powerful as the chaos gods, who can’t exist in the material universe. I say horus was godlike or a god after Molech. So you assume chaos gods gave him some powers. Horus killed the emperor. So a mortal with a portion of a chaos gods powers was more powerful than the emperor. How powerful must the chaos gods be then if they can use a puppet to kill the emperor?

I’m interested on your take on what happened during the siege of terra and how the emperor was killed becaus I don’t think BL have covered it yet.

Ps. I’m still a believer in the star child way of doing things. That business with tzeentch was a false flag to discredit the illuminati.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So no. The emperor is dead. A few cells is maybe all that’s left at best. Soul long gone. Dead.

Andykp wrote:
Del unobvosously read threads like you do books. No one changed their opinion about what you said and you proved no one wrong. Certainly not me. Because I don’t claim to KNOW anything for sure. How do address the fact that the nooks you rely on for your arguments aren’t a diffinative version of events? The writers and publishers say you shouldn’t trust the things in them. So your quotes, whist interesting don’t prove anything other than that that is a version of what happened.

I don’t use nuisance and interpretation as a way of disguising that I am wrong. It’s just a part of reading and living in a world with other people.

If Horus was a god and the emperor was a god, it’s gett8ng very marvel like and not to my tastes. I prefer the theory that the emperor was a very very powerful psyker and that Horus was a very powerful vessel of chaos. Neither were gods.

U say the emperor was as powerful as the chaos gods, who can’t exist in the material universe. I say horus was godlike or a god after Molech. So you assume chaos gods gave him some powers. Horus killed the emperor. So a mortal with a portion of a chaos gods powers was more powerful than the emperor. How powerful must the chaos gods be then if they can use a puppet to kill the emperor?

I’m interested on your take on what happened during the siege of terra and how the emperor was killed becaus I don’t think BL have covered it yet.

Ps. I’m still a believer in the star child way of doing things. That business with tzeentch was a false flag to discredit the illuminati.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So no. The emperor is dead. A few cells is maybe all that’s left at best. Soul long gone. Dead.

They all ended up saying that 'The Emperor got POWERS from Molech but we don't exactly what powers they were.' everyone ended up agreeing with that even though I said that after like 3 comments at the start of the thread, everyone can go and look at the thread so there is no point in lying.

You can't be proven wrong because you added nothing because you had not read the book, but even if I proved you wrong again after countless times you'd just say there are no things as facts. You do that so you can't be wrong because look:

"Yes. She wasn’t actually there stood beside him the whole time." "Is Horus a god? No." there, this is you making factual claims, (even though you never read the novel) as a lot of people hadn't as they contradicted me and ended up agreeing at the end. See you use the 'there are no facts' just to get out of being proven wrong. You assert facts all the time, when anyone proves you wrong you say 'nuance' or 'there are no facts'. I mean seriously dude.

You said Horus was not a god nor did you say he was godlike. He was either one of the two.

Andykp wrote:
Del unobvosously read threads like you do books. No one changed their opinion about what you said and you proved no one wrong. Certainly not me. Because I don’t claim to KNOW anything for sure. How do address the fact that the nooks you rely on for your arguments aren’t a diffinative version of events? The writers and publishers say you shouldn’t trust the things in them. So your quotes, whist interesting don’t prove anything other than that that is a version of what happened.

I don’t use nuisance and interpretation as a way of disguising that I am wrong. It’s just a part of reading and living in a world with other people.

If Horus was a god and the emperor was a god, it’s gett8ng very marvel like and not to my tastes. I prefer the theory that the emperor was a very very powerful psyker and that Horus was a very powerful vessel of chaos. Neither were gods.

U say the emperor was as powerful as the chaos gods, who can’t exist in the material universe. I say horus was godlike or a god after Molech. So you assume chaos gods gave him some powers. Horus killed the emperor. So a mortal with a portion of a chaos gods powers was more powerful than the emperor. How powerful must the chaos gods be then if they can use a puppet to kill the emperor?

I’m interested on your take on what happened during the siege of terra and how the emperor was killed becaus I don’t think BL have covered it yet.

Ps. I’m still a believer in the star child way of doing things. That business with tzeentch was a false flag to discredit the illuminati.


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So no. The emperor is dead. A few cells is maybe all that’s left at best. Soul long gone. Dead.

The emperor is not only not dead, he spoke to Bobby G in some of the more recent fluff. The years have made him a bit more of an ass but I don't see any evidence in any story that the Emperor died

Realm of chaos slaves to darkness spells it out very concisely that he is dead. We only have bobby gs word for that conversation.

And Del Boy I’m not going over it all again with u. U only assumed what I have and haven’t read.


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But....I’m not saying he is definitely dead but he could well be. Is to me, he is dead.


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I’m open to other theories but they need to be good.

Andykp wrote:
Realm of chaos slaves to darkness spells it out very concisely that he is dead. We only have bobby gs word for that conversation.

And Del Boy I’m not going over it all again with u. U only assumed what I have and haven’t read.


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But....I’m not saying he is definitely dead but he could well be. Is to me, he is dead.


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I’m open to other theories but they need to be good.

Well I don't know how you could get the lore so wrong if you did read the book.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Realm of chaos slaves to darkness spells it out very concisely that he is dead. We only have bobby gs word for that conversation.

And Del Boy I’m not going over it all again with u. U only assumed what I have and haven’t read.


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But....I’m not saying he is definitely dead but he could well be. Is to me, he is dead.


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I’m open to other theories but they need to be good.

Well I don't know how you could get the lore so wrong if you did read the book.

My humble apologies I meant lost and the damned. Though both are excellent books.

This is how I figured it. It’s not as simple as dead dead but it’s as good as. It’s only gotten worse over the last 10000 years.


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That’s where I stand on the emperor. I don’t follow all 1st edition fluff but heresey wise I like it.

I know where you stand del . I’m less keen on that. Neither of us is right or wrong because it’s a setting for a game that has been evolving and changing for 30 years. U pick the bits you like and leave those that you don’t. I’m not saying that that section of the book is fact. I’m saying it’s my preferred version of events.

Andykp wrote:
This is how I figured it. It’s not as simple as dead dead but it’s as good as. It’s only gotten worse over the last 10000 years.


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That’s where I stand on the emperor. I don’t follow all 1st edition fluff but heresey wise I like it.

I know where you stand del . I’m less keen on that. Neither of us is right or wrong because it’s a setting for a game that has been evolving and changing for 30 years. U pick the bits you like and leave those that you don’t. I’m not saying that that section of the book is fact. I’m saying it’s my preferred version of events.

"I know where you stand del . I’m less keen on that. Neither of us is right or wrong because it’s a setting for a game that has been evolving and changing for 30 years" yeah until the lore changes if its a factual claim its FACT. Leman Russ is the Emperos executioner that is a FACT.

I don't pick the bits I like, I conform my beliefs to the lore, not the other way around like you do. I mean to believe that there are no facts even when you claim things as facts boggles my mind. I can find quotes of you asserting FACTS all over these threads, the only time you say there are no facts is when you are proven wrong.

Andykp wrote:
This is how I figured it. It’s not as simple as dead dead but it’s as good as. It’s only gotten worse over the last 10000 years.


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That’s where I stand on the emperor. I don’t follow all 1st edition fluff but heresey wise I like it.

I know where you stand del . I’m less keen on that. Neither of us is right or wrong because it’s a setting for a game that has been evolving and changing for 30 years. U pick the bits you like and leave those that you don’t. I’m not saying that that section of the book is fact. I’m saying it’s my preferred version of events.

He is physically dead, but he is alive psychically. Guy Haley's Dark Imperium shows he is alive.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
This is how I figured it. It’s not as simple as dead dead but it’s as good as. It’s only gotten worse over the last 10000 years.


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That’s where I stand on the emperor. I don’t follow all 1st edition fluff but heresey wise I like it.

I know where you stand del . I’m less keen on that. Neither of us is right or wrong because it’s a setting for a game that has been evolving and changing for 30 years. U pick the bits you like and leave those that you don’t. I’m not saying that that section of the book is fact. I’m saying it’s my preferred version of events.

He is physically dead, but he is alive psychically. Guy Haley's Dark Imperium shows he is alive.

Some cells in his corpse are still alive.

Andykp wrote:Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

If so, what are you even doing on a background forum when there's no concrete facts.

Sorry, but this is a blatantly untrue assumption that "there is no lore". There is lore. There are facts. There is data. The thing that matters is the validity of that data in comparison to other pieces of data, calculated by the age of it, the reinforcement of said data, and the subjective quality of it.

You say "everyone" at the Black Library/authors/Games Workshop say there is no lore - that's not true. Some people have claimed that, but not everyone. Some authors may believe that there's no lore, no concrete canon, but it's not totally true.
Are there grey areas where interpretation and conjecture are applicable. Yes. Are there concrete HARD fact that must be true? Yes. Therefore, there IS lore, there is canon, but not all data is necessarily canon.

People can use whatever quotes they can pick from the text. That's actual empirical hypothesis work there. If you can find the text to prove your point, that point is real, and canon. If you want to dispel that, then dispel it empirically, with counterarguments drawn from the text, or attacking the validity of that text in the first place - you know, like in an intelligent debate.

You can have your favourite fragments of lore. But just because they're your favourites doesn't make them more valuable to anyone except yourself unless you actually put in work to prove why your fragments mean anything. If you want to believe what you want, go right ahead. But that doesn't make it right for anyone but yourself. In the meantime, other people can share and collaborate and debate the lore that is presented intelligently, with use of reasoning, evidence gathering, and hypotheses, and define a "True Canon".

40k has a true canon. If you don't care about "True Canon", good for you. More power to you. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
If you really fully believe 40k has no lore or canon at all, any assumption or idea presented can be slapped away with a simple "nope". And that's kind of a poor attitude to have in a Background Forum.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Some cells in his corpse are still alive.

There's enough cells in his body alive that he can consciously and coherently communicate. By our standards of "alive" in regards to euthanasia, he's alive.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Andykp wrote:Delvarious, we are back here again. My argument is, and it is backed up everyone at black library and the authors and gamesworkshop, there is no lore! U use quotes to try and justify and argument that goes against the stated intent of the people who wrote those very quotes you rely on so heavily. That’s a logical fallacy. You’re argument is shot down by the very people you are using to make it. That’s why I get annoyed at your quotes, not because they “prove” me wrong but because they are irrelevant. They are one possibility. Not the only one. Even Onething sees that, I think.

What I do is consider many possibilities and like my favourites. My favourites aren’t the lore to me. They are the ones I like best. All,others are possible too.

I’ll end with this simple explanation so uncan get it. THERE IS NO LORE! It’s all made up and ambiguous.

If so, what are you even doing on a background forum when there's no concrete facts.

Sorry, but this is a blatantly untrue assumption that "there is no lore". There is lore. There are facts. There is data. The thing that matters is the validity of that data in comparison to other pieces of data, calculated by the age of it, the reinforcement of said data, and the subjective quality of it.

You say "everyone" at the Black Library/authors/Games Workshop say there is no lore - that's not true. Some people have claimed that, but not everyone. Some authors may believe that there's no lore, no concrete canon, but it's not totally true.
Are there grey areas where interpretation and conjecture are applicable. Yes. Are there concrete HARD fact that must be true? Yes. Therefore, there IS lore, there is canon, but not all data is necessarily canon.

People can use whatever quotes they can pick from the text. That's actual empirical hypothesis work there. If you can find the text to prove your point, that point is real, and canon. If you want to dispel that, then dispel it empirically, with counterarguments drawn from the text, or attacking the validity of that text in the first place - you know, like in an intelligent debate.

You can have your favourite fragments of lore. But just because they're your favourites doesn't make them more valuable to anyone except yourself unless you actually put in work to prove why your fragments mean anything. If you want to believe what you want, go right ahead. But that doesn't make it right for anyone but yourself. In the meantime, other people can share and collaborate and debate the lore that is presented intelligently, with use of reasoning, evidence gathering, and hypotheses, and define a "True Canon".

40k has a true canon. If you don't care about "True Canon", good for you. More power to you. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
If you really fully believe 40k has no lore or canon at all, any assumption or idea presented can be slapped away with a simple "nope". And that's kind of a poor attitude to have in a Background Forum.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Some cells in his corpse are still alive.

There's enough cells in his body alive that he can consciously and coherently communicate. By our standards of "alive" in regards to euthanasia, he's alive.

I agree, he's obviously alive, otherwise he wouldn't be tied to the golden throne/materium.

Of course The Emperor is alive. As stated above, having a few cells alive is enough for His soul to “anchor” to so as far as He is concerned He is alive.

We also have the existing lore that states the obvious that psykers are soulbound to Him. If He was dead that would be impossible.

We also have the new lore where Guilliman speaks to him and He isn’t “so nice” anymore.

Anyway. Why has it taken 6 pages to talk about The Emperor forcing a Legion to kneel? It’s lore. It’s canon. It happened. He’s the greatest Human psyker ever.

Mellow wrote:Anyway. Why has it taken 6 pages to talk about The Emperor forcing a Legion to kneel? It’s lore. It’s canon. It happened. He’s the greatest Human psyker ever.

Because apparently lore and canon don't exist, and everything in 40k background can be dispelled with a "nah lol".

Haha, that is rediculous. What would be the point of having any books at all if everything written in the novels could just be “not true” and “didn’t happen”.

Well what happens when they change the lore. The things i like from the background aren’t my inventions. They came from gamesworkshops books and literature just as your lots did. They were created by the creators of the universe the game is set in. All the time these things change. Space wolves used to have long fangs implanted to look wolfy, now it’s a mutation and they can turn into full wolves, pius used to be a normal guy, now he’s immortal super guy, the primarchs were originally tainted by chaos when chaos stole them as foetus’s. And all were tempted by them, entire races we know now we’re completely different. The lore, as you insist on calling it, changes with each new book and release. It’s in constant flux. You all talk about facts like they are real events. They are made up, by dozens and dozens of different people over the decades the game has been about.

I can find fluff facts about back flipping terminators, spacemarines being nothing more than galaxy cops, about a flannel that will eat your face when you use it. A terror squirrel! It’s all still out there and as relevant as the latest blacklibrary book about the primarchs. A lot of it contradicts other versions. Are some official GW books about their game wrong and others right? Black library them selves say they don’t produce canon but versions of events in the setting.

I come on the background section of the forum because I love the background. All of it. I’m a narrative player and it’s the fluff that kept me playing the game for 30years, even after 3rd came out and ruined ORKS. I read lots of interesting theories and ideas on here. And comment on some. Others I don’t. Today I read a thread about the eldar timeline. I didn’t comment but enjoyed reading people’s thoughts on an aspect of the story. But here I get told I’m enjoying the background wrong and only one version of it is official.

So yes the emperors dead, or he’s alive, or he’s a spirit baby in the warp! He even could be an old one! The discussion her was how did he make the world bearers kneel. And there were some interesting ideas, but you people only care about your “lore”. But I will still come to this forum to learn from others and discuss with others but you will not convince my that the HH books are anymore official than the realm of chaos books, decades of codexs, short stories, white dwarf articles or the rogue trader rule books. The made up planet my games are set on has squats, loyalist beastmen and chaos trolls on it. And there people believe the emperor is the star child and that Han shot first.

He made them kneel because He’s the strongest Human psyker and He can do things like that. It really doesn’t need any further explanation.

Also lore changes over time. It’s generally considered to all be correct and accurate unless something newer comes along and directly replaces it. There’s nothing wrong with it being updated over the years.

Mellow wrote:
He made them kneel because He’s the strongest Human psyker and He can do things like that. It really doesn’t need any further explanation.

Also lore changes over time. It’s generally considered to all be correct and accurate unless something newer comes along and directly replaces it. There’s nothing wrong with it being updated over the years.

But it’s fun to speculate. Maybe he wasn’t so great? Maybe there’s more to it. Because if he was so powerful how did he get his ass whooped so badly? That was the point of the discussion I think. I wasn’t the OP. The OP likes discussing the emperor. A lot.

It’s not a rule that newer lore has to replace old lore. It’s not stated on any of the material, it is for game rules but you can even pick and choose Those if you have a friendly like minded group. I like my emperor dead and marines 7’ tall and my primarchs not much taller. Who are you to tell me I’m wrong? As I said in my games squats are still around and my ORKS ride pigs on occasions. It’s all in the lore!

Andykp wrote:
Well what happens when they change the lore.

Then the relevancy of both it, and previous lore, is called into question in accordance to my aforementioned points.

Generally speaking (generally, that is), the more modern something is, the more relevant it is.

The things i like from the background aren’t my inventions. They came from gamesworkshops books and literature just as your lots did. They were created by the creators of the universe the game is set in. All the time these things change. Space wolves used to have long fangs implanted to look wolfy, now it’s a mutation and they can turn into full wolves, pius used to be a normal guy, now he’s immortal super guy, the primarchs were originally tainted by chaos when chaos stole them as foetus’s. And all were tempted by them, entire races we know now we’re completely different. The lore, as you insist on calling it, changes with each new book and release. It’s in constant flux. You all talk about facts like they are real events. They are made up, by dozens and dozens of different people over the decades the game has been about.

Yeah, it is in flux. However, it's the POINT of these background discussions to determine the validity of the changes, the new data, the old, and how we can determine a collective canon for it.

I know it's not real. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a canon. I know the canon can change. It doesn't mean that there isn't a canon at a certain point in time (our time, not in the 41st millennium - OR IS IT REALLY SET IN M41 because yanno, it's all fake!!!)
The above in brackets is why the argument that "it's fake, there's no real things" is stupid - because you can refute any single point about 40k background purely by pointing out the obvious, that things can change, that nothing is set in stone, that it's all imaginary. But that's incredibly counterproductive, most of all in a BACKGROUND forum. The whole point of a background forum is to discuss the background as we know it, to establish common consensus and canon, not destroy the suspension of disbelief necessary for fiction.

Star Wars retconned most of it's EU stuff, if not all. Does that mean Star Wars has no canon? Good luck arguing that one.

TL;DR Yes, I know 40k is in flux. What people refer to when finding a "true canon" is analysing what we know about 40k up to that moment, taking a holistic view of all 40k sources, reviewing the validity of said sources, and establishing a basis for what is, and is not, true in the universe as presented by data. If new data comes, then that may change what "true canon" was.

Five years ago, Cawl didn't exist. That doesn't mean Cawl doesn't exist now. It means that in the understanding of canon 5 years ago, he did not exist. However now, we have no reason not to believe that Cawl is a real, tangible figure in the universe of Warhammer 40k.

I can find fluff facts about back flipping terminators, spacemarines being nothing more than galaxy cops, about a flannel that will eat your face when you use it. A terror squirrel! It’s all still out there and as relevant as the latest blacklibrary book about the primarchs. A lot of it contradicts other versions. Are some official GW books about their game wrong and others right? Black library them selves say they don’t produce canon but versions of events in the setting.

You can find all of that. But you're critically wrong that it's as relevant as the latest Black Library book.

As I said, not all data is created equally. A great many factors come into play - how well does it relate to previously known data? How consistent is it? How recent is it? What is the context behind this data? How does it fit to the widely held consensus of 40k canon? These are but some of the criteria, which you seem to forget. Not all lore is created equally.

You can still have "versions of events in the setting", but that doesn't make it untrue. Opinions, thoughts, 1st person internal monologues are all facts held in the setting. Two Word Bearers, for example, in one book, mention about the Ultramarines absorbing the 2nd/11th Legions into their own. Despite Word of God saying that it is just the characters making up theories (which I agree with, I believe the Ultramarines didn't absorb the 2nd/11th Legions), it doesn't change the fact that those Word Bearers had those beliefs. Whether they were right is not important - we know for a FACT that they believed it, and therefore, we can infer some facts.

Versions of events spawn canon. What people do is look into the collected versions of events and opinions and views presented, pick out the most consistent and valid ones, and call that canon.

I come on the background section of the forum because I love the background. All of it. I’m a narrative player and it’s the fluff that kept me playing the game for 30years, even after 3rd came out and ruined ORKS. I read lots of interesting theories and ideas on here. And comment on some. Others I don’t. Today I read a thread about the eldar timeline. I didn’t comment but enjoyed reading people’s thoughts on an aspect of the story. But here I get told I’m enjoying the background wrong and only one version of it is official.

I've not said you're enjoying it wrong. What you are doing is neglecting to acknowledge that 40k does have some concrete facts (as of now) that are referred to as canon. You can choose, without consequence, not to believe the same, but that is your headcanon. That doesn't mean your headcanon is any less valid to you. It just means you have a different view to more widely accepted views.

But shooting someone down for using quotes and actual sources to rationalise a viewpoint is quite ignorant. If you disagree, that's cool, you don't need to make judgement. If you want to make judgement and criticise that hypothesis, prove it in the same manner - rationally.
Again, this is all my opinion on how things should be done (orderly and rationally), and I have no authority, but if you're discussing background, I'd expect you back up your opinions with actual background.

So yes the emperors dead, or he’s alive, or he’s a spirit baby in the warp! He even could be an old one! The discussion her was how did he make the world bearers kneel. And there were some interesting ideas, but you people only care about your “lore”. But I will still come to this forum to learn from others and discuss with others but you will not convince my that the HH books are anymore official than the realm of chaos books, decades of codexs, short stories, white dwarf articles or the rogue trader rule books. The made up planet my games are set on has squats, loyalist beastmen and chaos trolls on it. And there people believe the emperor is the star child and that Han shot first.

You can believe what you want to. That doesn't change the fact that there is a canon. If you don't care what it is, why should you care that it exists?


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Andykp wrote:

Mellow wrote:
He made them kneel because He’s the strongest Human psyker and He can do things like that. It really doesn’t need any further explanation.

Also lore changes over time. It’s generally considered to all be correct and accurate unless something newer comes along and directly replaces it. There’s nothing wrong with it being updated over the years.

But it’s fun to speculate. Maybe he wasn’t so great? Maybe there’s more to it. Because if he was so powerful how did he get his ass whooped so badly? That was the point of the discussion I think. I wasn’t the OP. The OP likes discussing the emperor. A lot.

It’s not a rule that newer lore has to replace old lore. It’s not stated on any of the material, it is for game rules but you can even pick and choose Those if you have a friendly like minded group. I like my emperor dead and marines 7’ tall and my primarchs not much taller. Who are you to tell me I’m wrong? As I said in my games squats are still around and my ORKS ride pigs on occasions. It’s all in the lore!

It's not a rule. It's certainly an important part of relevancy though.

You like your Emperor dead? Cool. You enjoy your headcanon. Meanwhile, please don't berate people who attempt to rationalise a consistent, cohesive canon for multiple people to agree with. You have your headcanon. Other people can enjoy "official" canon. Why does that affect you?

My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used.

You seem to think that you’re way of interpreting “canon” or lore is the only way and the right way but it’s a way you have decided to do it. It’s not a way the creators of the information have said it should be done p, it’s just what you like to do. It’s therefore no more relevant than my way. We all have lines that the fluff cannot cross without becoming silly or too much. And we all have things we dislike that we choose to play down or ignore until GW get round to improving the story with something better.

The difference between this setting and that say of Star Wars is that Star Wars is a film, it’s a story presented with a set structure and path. 40k is a game. With a great big sandbox of a galaxy to play in. And the stories are always ambiguous and open ended to let the game be played how you like and to move the story around. The books and things that accompany the game are there to add flavour to the game, the game is first. The story second. So the story changes. U can’t change the stalwarts story because it’s the whole product. All bull that went along with it like books and comics can change but the films will always be the same. Canon.

40k isn’t the same. It changes when they need to sell more models or make a new race. It changes when they need to get rid of a race, a good firend of mine was a squat player and lore of canon didn’t help his miniature collection and beloved army of “his dudes” that he had nurtured for years. Now the way you describe the lore you would shelve your now non existent army and start again. Really?

So you enjoy deciding what is canon and I will enjoy looking for interesting theories and plots that can be construed from all the information available. Neither of us is right or wrong. But when I see someone telling someone they are wrong and throwing insults around because they got a different interpretation out of a book I will say something. As I will when I hear an interesting idea or take on the background. My version is canon, not head canon but black and white GW official canon just like yours.

Andykp wrote:
My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used.

You seem to think that you’re way of interpreting “canon” or lore is the only way and the right way but it’s a way you have decided to do it. It’s not a way the creators of the information have said it should be done p, it’s just what you like to do. It’s therefore no more relevant than my way. We all have lines that the fluff cannot cross without becoming silly or too much. And we all have things we dislike that we choose to play down or ignore until GW get round to improving the story with something better.

The difference between this setting and that say of Star Wars is that Star Wars is a film, it’s a story presented with a set structure and path. 40k is a game. With a great big sandbox of a galaxy to play in. And the stories are always ambiguous and open ended to let the game be played how you like and to move the story around. The books and things that accompany the game are there to add flavour to the game, the game is first. The story second. So the story changes. U can’t change the stalwarts story because it’s the whole product. All bull that went along with it like books and comics can change but the films will always be the same. Canon.

40k isn’t the same. It changes when they need to sell more models or make a new race. It changes when they need to get rid of a race, a good firend of mine was a squat player and lore of canon didn’t help his miniature collection and beloved army of “his dudes” that he had nurtured for years. Now the way you describe the lore you would shelve your now non existent army and start again. Really?

So you enjoy deciding what is canon and I will enjoy looking for interesting theories and plots that can be construed from all the information available. Neither of us is right or wrong. But when I see someone telling someone they are wrong and throwing insults around because they got a different interpretation out of a book I will say something. As I will when I hear an interesting idea or take on the background. My version is canon, not head canon but black and white GW official canon just like yours.

Again, show me one quote of me doing this "My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used. " otherwise admit that you are lying. You like other people are using the old 'dev miss-quotes' because I can't refute his points, out of all the people that have said that not a single one has provided proof and you won't be able to. The amount of times I've proven you wrong and all you say is 'you're missing the nuance' or 'the philosophy' and now this new one 'lore or facts do not exist'

So what if the lore changes. Thats like saying the present changes so lets ignore all human history. When it changes you adjust, you don't ignore the whole lore because you are upset with the changes.

There are whole threads of it. Almost any of the background threads you have started. Just read one you did about big balls. I did the exact thing. Molech! That’s another. Anyway, we are miles off topic and it’s just bitching about different perspectives on fluff. I said my bit in that, I’m sure we will all see each other on various other threads. I think this one is done.

Andykp wrote:
There are whole threads of it. Almost any of the background threads you have started. Just read one you did about big balls. I did the exact thing. Molech! That’s another. Anyway, we are miles off topic and it’s just bitching about different perspectives on fluff. I said my bit in that, I’m sure we will all see each other on various other threads. I think this one is done.

Then it should be easy to find, on you go I have plenty of time. Off topic, no I stopped replying to you and you kept at it. So go find a quote otherwise admit you are a liar. You already have admited, this one is done, yeah its done because you can't quote me doing that.

Andykp wrote:
There are whole threads of it. Almost any of the background threads you have started. Just read one you did about big balls. I did the exact thing. Molech! That’s another. Anyway, we are miles off topic and it’s just bitching about different perspectives on fluff. I said my bit in that, I’m sure we will all see each other on various other threads. I think this one is done.

Just read your updated post and am confused. I am saying all the lore should be considered relevant. That’s been my point. What are you now saying?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
There are whole threads of it. Almost any of the background threads you have started. Just read one you did about big balls. I did the exact thing. Molech! That’s another. Anyway, we are miles off topic and it’s just bitching about different perspectives on fluff. I said my bit in that, I’m sure we will all see each other on various other threads. I think this one is done.

Then it should be easy to find, on you go I have plenty of time.

Let me guess if I don’t you win?

Andykp wrote:

Andykp wrote:
There are whole threads of it. Almost any of the background threads you have started. Just read one you did about big balls. I did the exact thing. Molech! That’s another. Anyway, we are miles off topic and it’s just bitching about different perspectives on fluff. I said my bit in that, I’m sure we will all see each other on various other threads. I think this one is done.

Just read your updated post and am confused. I am saying all the lore should be considered relevant. That’s been my point. What are you now saying?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
There are whole threads of it. Almost any of the background threads you have started. Just read one you did about big balls. I did the exact thing. Molech! That’s another. Anyway, we are miles off topic and it’s just bitching about different perspectives on fluff. I said my bit in that, I’m sure we will all see each other on various other threads. I think this one is done.

Then it should be easy to find, on you go I have plenty of time.

Let me guess if I don’t you win?

I don't win, you are lying and attacking my character by saying that, so I want you to prove it or admit you are lying.

Then just read your thread, the emperors deal with chaos. The first page alone will show you making assumptions and misitrperoreting text. I’ve seen in a number of threads you do this and then retaliating with insults. The removes text is there in your posts. One whole post you wrote to me was removed for being offensive before I even read it. And then you accused me of reporting you because I was upset you had proved me wrong. I never even saw it.

U did the same in the thread about balls with Brian. To be fair I have conceded that you have been wrong on the odd occasion but I stand my claims that you misinterpret quotes and are hostile to anyone who points this out to u. so have fun proving me wrong some more, I haven’t noticed when I did before but I am sure it was great for u.

Andykp wrote:
Then just read your thread, the emperors deal with chaos. The first page alone will show you making assumptions and misitrperoreting text. I’ve seen in a number of threads you do this and then retaliating with insults. The removes text is there in your posts. One whole post you wrote to me was removed for being offensive before I even read it. And then you accused me of reporting you because I was upset you had proved me wrong. I never even saw it.

U did the same in the thread about balls with Brian. To be fair I have conceded that you have been wrong on the odd occasion but I stand my claims that you misinterpret quotes and are hostile to anyone who points this out to u. so have fun proving me wrong some more, I haven’t noticed when I did before but I am sure it was great for u.

Quote me then. Show me a screen shot of me deleting the text. You can't. You did report me as the MOD wasn't in the thread, he had to be alerted. You have been replying straight away for half an hour don't pretend you don't have the time to look for the quote.

I didn’t even see the message. It’s was removed already before I saw so don’t know what offensive things unsaid to me for it to be removed. I also don’t know who reported you. I’m a big boy. I can handle someone being rude to me without running for help. Whatever you said I promise you in my 17years in the ambulance service I have heard worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Then just read your thread, the emperors deal with chaos. The first page alone will show you making assumptions and misitrperoreting text. I’ve seen in a number of threads you do this and then retaliating with insults. The removes text is there in your posts. One whole post you wrote to me was removed for being offensive before I even read it. And then you accused me of reporting you because I was upset you had proved me wrong. I never even saw it.

U did the same in the thread about balls with Brian. To be fair I have conceded that you have been wrong on the odd occasion but I stand my claims that you misinterpret quotes and are hostile to anyone who points this out to u. so have fun proving me wrong some more, I haven’t noticed when I did before but I am sure it was great for u.

Quote me then. Show me a screen shot of me deleting the text. You can't. You did report me as the MOD wasn't in the thread, he had to be alerted. You have been replying straight away for half an hour don't pretend you don't have the time to look for the quote.

Here’s a quote of you misinterpreting things. U got reported, so it must have been me. Couldn’t have been anyone else so I will state it as a absolute fact and say I win.

Andykp wrote:
I didn’t even see the message. It’s was removed already before I saw so don’t know what offensive things unsaid to me for it to be removed. I also don’t know who reported you. I’m a big boy. I can handle someone being rude to me without running for help. Whatever you said I promise you in my 17years in the ambulance service I have heard worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Then just read your thread, the emperors deal with chaos. The first page alone will show you making assumptions and misitrperoreting text. I’ve seen in a number of threads you do this and then retaliating with insults. The removes text is there in your posts. One whole post you wrote to me was removed for being offensive before I even read it. And then you accused me of reporting you because I was upset you had proved me wrong. I never even saw it.

U did the same in the thread about balls with Brian. To be fair I have conceded that you have been wrong on the odd occasion but I stand my claims that you misinterpret quotes and are hostile to anyone who points this out to u. so have fun proving me wrong some more, I haven’t noticed when I did before but I am sure it was great for u.

Quote me then. Show me a screen shot of me deleting the text. You can't. You did report me as the MOD wasn't in the thread, he had to be alerted. You have been replying straight away for half an hour don't pretend you don't have the time to look for the quote.

Here’s a quote of you misinterpreting things. U got reported, so it must have been me. Couldn’t have been anyone else so I will state it as a absolute fact and say I win.

No you said I miss quote, don't try and worm out of this find an example of me 'missquoting or quoting things that have no relevance.

Andykp wrote:
My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used.

There's nothing wrong with that, but if the quotes don't match the conclusion, can you not prove that by way of analysis? If what you say about the quotes being incorrect is true, then it should be simple to prove that. Unless, that is what you're doing, in which case, my apologies.

You seem to think that you’re way of interpreting “canon” or lore is the only way and the right way but it’s a way you have decided to do it. It’s not a way the creators of the information have said it should be done p, it’s just what you like to do. It’s therefore no more relevant than my way. We all have lines that the fluff cannot cross without becoming silly or too much. And we all have things we dislike that we choose to play down or ignore until GW get round to improving the story with something better.

Not all of the creators of the information have said so. In fact, only a handful have said "there's no real canon". It's a minority viewpoint.

It's no more relevant to you than my way. However, the thing that makes canon, well, canon (and not headcanon) is that it is the widely accepted one, by way of the community establishing it by analysis of the existing lore and piecing it together as logically as possible.

Functionally, the only difference between canon and headcanon is that headcanon is less widely accepted by the fanbase. So why do you have such an aversion to it? I'm not saying that it's "wrong" to have a headcanon, nor is it "right" to follow canon if you don't believe it. I'm just saying that there IS a canon, and you purposefully don't want to engage with that. Which is fine.

The difference between this setting and that say of Star Wars is that Star Wars is a film, it’s a story presented with a set structure and path. 40k is a game. With a great big sandbox of a galaxy to play in. And the stories are always ambiguous and open ended to let the game be played how you like and to move the story around. The books and things that accompany the game are there to add flavour to the game, the game is first. The story second. So the story changes. U can’t change the stalwarts story because it’s the whole product. All bull that went along with it like books and comics can change but the films will always be the same. Canon.

But Star Wars ISN'T just the films. It's the TV shows, the approved and sanctioned comics, the stories that Disney declare to be canon. Disney are well within their power to call an entire film, or arc of films, non-canon.

Plus, you saying "the films will always be the same" is something that your own previous quote refuted. You stated that "there will always be people who believe... Han shot first". In the original, he did. That got changed. The canon is that he shot second. People who say he shot first are not using current canon. Hence my point.

40k isn’t the same. It changes when they need to sell more models or make a new race. It changes when they need to get rid of a race, a good firend of mine was a squat player and lore of canon didn’t help his miniature collection and beloved army of “his dudes” that he had nurtured for years. Now the way you describe the lore you would shelve your now non existent army and start again. Really?

Not at all.
40k has a canon. That can change. It doesn't change the fact that it's still the canon.

It's canon that the squats were wiped out (or mostly, at least. We're seeing more hints that some endure). But that still provides options. For one, they can play their Squats using the myriad of time travel opportunities that 40k provides (the Warp!) in current events. Secondly, nothing is stopping them from embracing a headcanon that the Squats survive. That's cool, you do you. But they cannot deny that the "official" canon is that they're dead. But if you don't care about what anyone else thinks, and you just want to have your Squats, headcanon it. Forge that narrative. Go you!

Why does the idea of an actual canon disturb you so?

So you enjoy deciding what is canon and I will enjoy looking for interesting theories and plots that can be construed from all the information available. Neither of us is right or wrong. But when I see someone telling someone they are wrong and throwing insults around because they got a different interpretation out of a book I will say something. As I will when I hear an interesting idea or take on the background. My version is canon, not head canon but black and white GW official canon just like yours.

There might not be a "right and wrong", but there is certainly a better argument for one thing existing than another - this is analysis, this is making an educated and rational discussion and theorising, supported by quotes and source material. That can, and often DOES, have a more supported hypothesis than another.

For example, two people arguing "Does Illyian Nastase exist?" Person 1 might point to Rogue Trader, as their only source. Person 2 might point to the lack of his mention ever again, the contextual lack of half-Eldar Space Marines in future publications, the fact that Tigurius is more consistently and frequently called out as the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines, and the various other factors that oppose Nastase in future publications with near unanimity. Purely on quality, consistency, and relevance of all their data, it's wise to say that Person 2 has a better argument.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying what you want isn't canon. Which is fine - you enjoy your headcanon. But when people attempt to support and rationalise points, those people will have a better argument for that point being canon.

Pretending that your opinion, backed up by nothing or outdated sources, is just as valid as a laboriously constructed, sourced and reputable argument for something else is ignorant in the extreme. There is a canon. But you're not beholden to it. You don't like it? Great, enjoy your headcanon. Let other people discuss and argue analytically about the actual canon.

Why is that a problem?

No I didn’t. To me a misquote is changing what was said. I have never accused you of misquoting the books you quote. For all I care they are exact quotes copied and pasted out of the ebooks. I said you misinterpret quotes and draw erroneous conclusions from them. Like above with the whole reporting farce.

Andykp wrote:
No I didn’t. To me a misquote is changing what was said. I have never accused you of misquoting the books you quote. For all I care they are exact quotes copied and pasted out of the ebooks. I said you misinterpret quotes and draw erroneous conclusions from them. Like above with the whole reporting farce.

This is what you said "My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used. " quote me doing that. That is miss quoting. Also you say I change what was said find a quote where I did that and not one where I edit just to add things, I mean actually changing my argument. Show screen shots of me deleting comments, I don't even think you can delete comments on this site.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
No I didn’t. To me a misquote is changing what was said. I have never accused you of misquoting the books you quote. For all I care they are exact quotes copied and pasted out of the ebooks. I said you misinterpret quotes and draw erroneous conclusions from them. Like above with the whole reporting farce.

This is what you said "My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used. " quote me doing that.

And I said look at any of your fluff threads. Circles now mate.

Sgt smudge. We have different views on things and that’s great. I and many other people have tried to show that to del but it is very hard work. Hence my frustration.

Fluff wise, your way is fine for you but it sounds a dull way of doing things to me. So I will keep doing it my way and so will my mates. U can call it headcanon or whatever but I keep calling it fluff. It’s all fluff and it’s all equal to me. Long live the star child!

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
No I didn’t. To me a misquote is changing what was said. I have never accused you of misquoting the books you quote. For all I care they are exact quotes copied and pasted out of the ebooks. I said you misinterpret quotes and draw erroneous conclusions from them. Like above with the whole reporting farce.

This is what you said "My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used. " quote me doing that.

And I said look at any of your fluff threads. Circles now mate.

Sgt smudge. We have different views on things and that’s great. I and many other people have tried to show that to del but it is very hard work. Hence my frustration.

Fluff wise, your way is fine for you but it sounds a dull way of doing things to me. So I will keep doing it my way and so will my mates. U can call it headcanon or whatever but I keep calling it fluff. It’s all fluff and it’s all equal to me. Long live the star child!

Yup, you are lying, thanks for showing everyone. Frustration, yeah proving you wrong big whoop, how bout you lying and making up nonsense about me that implies faults in my character. I may insult people in heated arguments but I never hold insults thrown my way personally, I just get passionate but at least I'm honest. After an argument I treat those people with civility until we get into another heated argument where we throw insults at each other.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
No I didn’t. To me a misquote is changing what was said. I have never accused you of misquoting the books you quote. For all I care they are exact quotes copied and pasted out of the ebooks. I said you misinterpret quotes and draw erroneous conclusions from them. Like above with the whole reporting farce.

This is what you said "My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used. " quote me doing that. That is miss quoting. Also you say I change what was said find a quote where I did that and not one where I edit just to add things, I mean actually changing my argument. Show screen shots of me deleting comments, I don't even think you can delete comments on this site.

I don’t think you can either. Sorry if I made you think I thought you had. I did say I had read a post and what I meant by edited was as I read it and responded you had edited your post to say more. Just happened again now. So I responded again to the new comments you made. I have seen the mods remove your posts and comments and mentioned that to. As for the quotes, anyone who has discussed fluff with you in here can see what you do with them. I’ll say no more about it.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
No I didn’t. To me a misquote is changing what was said. I have never accused you of misquoting the books you quote. For all I care they are exact quotes copied and pasted out of the ebooks. I said you misinterpret quotes and draw erroneous conclusions from them. Like above with the whole reporting farce.

This is what you said "My annoyance at del for using quotes is that he has a storied history of using quotes to make conclusions that couldn’t be made from the quotes he used. " quote me doing that. That is miss quoting. Also you say I change what was said find a quote where I did that and not one where I edit just to add things, I mean actually changing my argument. Show screen shots of me deleting comments, I don't even think you can delete comments on this site.

I don’t think you can either. Sorry if I made you think I thought you had. I did say I had read a post and what I meant by edited was as I read it and responded you had edited your post to say more. Just happened again now. So I responded again to the new comments you made. I have seen the mods remove your posts and comments and mentioned that to. As for the quotes, anyone who has discussed fluff with you in here can see what you do with them. I’ll say no more about it.

Yeah and like I have asked you, no one else can quote me misquoting and they can all see this comment, I've asked tonnes of times for people to give me evidence of doing that. But I'll let bygones be bygones.

Lying. Grow up mate. Here you go again, making conclusions form stuff that are way off the mark and missing the point entirely. feel free to pm me if you want to continue with this. It’s off topic and not productive.

Andykp wrote:
Lying. Grow up mate. Here you go again, making conclusions form stuff that are way off the mark and missing the point entirely. feel free to pm me if you want to continue with this. It’s off topic and not productive.

A lie is a lie nothing immature about it. If you don't want to be seen as such find the quote. I'll say no more about it, but you shouldn't do that.

I haven’t lied. Pm me if you want to discuss it.

I’m definitely in agreement with Sgt_Smudge.

Canon is whatever is printed and in the case of conflicts it’s whatever is more recently printed.

Otherwise the original HH story written decades ago could never be updated or expanded upon.

Personal head canon is also fine but you can’t use it to dispute printed canon.

Mellow wrote:
I’m definitely in agreement with Sgt_Smudge.

Canon is whatever is printed and in the case of conflicts it’s whatever is more recently printed.

Otherwise the original HH story written decades ago could never be updated or expanded upon.

Personal head canon is also fine but you can’t use it to dispute printed canon.

That’s fine but the when the author of the “printed canon” says it isn’t definitive, it’s biased or unreliable the canon is questionable. Which has been the basis of my discussions with del. just because one character says it happened x way doesn’t mean it did. Regardless of other sources. Unless a source states that this is the definitive version of events then that version should be questioned.

Also head canon to me is something invented by the person using it. Like the emperor being an old one. I find that interesting but the fluff I like was written by GW. So “old canon” would be the term you guys would use. I will use fluff to describe all of it.

Andykp wrote:

Mellow wrote:
I’m definitely in agreement with Sgt_Smudge.

Canon is whatever is printed and in the case of conflicts it’s whatever is more recently printed.

Otherwise the original HH story written decades ago could never be updated or expanded upon.

Personal head canon is also fine but you can’t use it to dispute printed canon.

That’s fine but the when the author of the “printed canon” says it isn’t definitive, it’s biased or unreliable the canon is questionable. Which has been the basis of my discussions with del. just because one character says it happened x way doesn’t mean it did. Regardless of other sources. Unless a source states that this is the definitive version of events then that version should be questioned.

Also head canon to me is something invented by the person using it. Like the emperor being an old one. I find that interesting but the fluff I like was written by GW. So “old canon” would be the term you guys would use. I will use fluff to describe all of it.

I think saying there's no lore is taking things a bit far, but I think the thing with 40k compared to some other established settings is it doesn't seem to have one "official" set of background for the setting. Star Wars, for example, has quite a highly curated background, with Lucasfilm or Disney declaring certain parts of it to be non-canon or official at different times. LotR has similar encyclopaedic background information available. The entire setting for Babylon 5 has a literal background bible, written before anything else was created.

40k doesn't have that, which makes the background a sometimes confusing mix of contradictions or, at the very least, fluid interpretations of events. There are some things we can say for sure though. Horus and the Emperor definitely fought each other in the Battle for Terra. Horus was completely obliterated and the Emperor almost killed. It seems pretty clear something of the Emperor survived as he maintains the Astronomicon,, though now with the help of millions of sacrificial psykers, and he appears to have spoken to Guilliman too. Other things are more difficult to determine, but become clearer as more books are written. GW also seems to be in the process of overwriting some of their previous fluff in places, just to make things even more confusing.