I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar. In fact, the reason they are so often played is because they were overpowered in 5th to 8th edition. The producers have made very little effort to publicize the Tau. Now, you can say the same thing to the Dark Eldar, but the Tau should be more marketable and appealing to the mass.

No Tau is featured in supplement campaign books like Valedor or Damnos.

Tau only has 1 shooter game and that one was bad. They appear in Dark Crusade, Soulstorm, Retribution Last Stand and Battlefleet Gothic Armada, but these games aim to feature as many factions as possible. There is no Tau in the campaign for both the latter games.

Very little mention of the Tau in the current lore such as Gathering Storm and Indomitus Crusade. We know they are planning another invasion after their Fourth Sphere went wrong, but we don't get much of what the remnant of their fleet are doing after being flung across the galaxy by the Warp storm. The Tau are quite close to Ultramar, so you would expect Papa Smurf to have a word with them over territorial disputes.

Imperial players are just upset that there's a faction closer to "Good" than they are. It's a lot harder to see your space Nazis as good when there's a faction that doesn't genocide entire planets of humans or entire alien species on a daily basis.

Tau is quite popular! In my FLGS there are 4 Tau players.

Also, Tau featured in a campaign supplement - Damocles

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Imperial players are just upset that there's a faction closer to "Good" than they are. It's a lot harder to see your space Nazis as good when there's a faction that doesn't genocide entire planets of humans or entire alien species on a daily basis.

Tau would be more popular, if they would look more like your Avatar.

Part of it depends on what brought someone into the game. The tau have a very different aesthetic from the other armies. Also I'd wager a lot of people get turned off when they find out about needing markerlights to be able to shoot properly.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Imperial players are just upset that there's a faction closer to "Good" than they are. It's a lot harder to see your space Nazis as good when there's a faction that doesn't genocide entire planets of humans or entire alien species on a daily basis.

From what I have been told it is that, and the fact that at some point in time tau players were countering eldar armies, and eldar players didn't like that.

I'd wager their shootiness also rubs people the wrong way

Tau are dishonorable cowards who refuse to participate in glorious melee combat. Farsight Enclaves are a'ight, though.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'd wager their shootiness also rubs people the wrong way

But aren't all the good lists in w40k ungodly shoty to begin with? Some are also very good at melee, but there are no good lists, or at least I haven't heard about them, that are just good melee.

From a fluff perspective, the 40k setting doesn't lend itself to there being any good factions.
Every faction is their own brand of completely horrible, so eyebrows are raised when one faction is put above the others and presented as 'the good guys'. Really though, in a lot of fluff the tau are shown to be fairly monstrous by most standards. It's just presented more subtly than some would like. Their self-important 'enlightenment' is undermined by the offhand hints at brainwashing of alien races, mass sterilizations of worlds, and so on. I don't really have a problem with them here.

From a crunch perspective, I personally find them just a bit obnoxious to play against.
Regardless of how strong they are at any one time, their 'all shooting, all the time' gameplay is rather one dimensional. All assault armies are similarly dull. But to a lesser extent, as they're somewhat more interactive, and a bit less common.

A lot of the dislike has to do with bad experiences with them.
Basically to play against Tau armies can be either extremly enjoyable or extremly annoying. Take these as exemples:

Older Players that have suffered through what has been dubbed the fish of fury have understandable antipathy torwards Tau.

5-6th ed was combat suit spam, which made for a relative boring game.

7th Ed players will still be annoyed at either Taudar or rapetides.

8th ed is markerlight spam and as soon as a table has not enough cover will end badly for most armies against tau, since weight of dice is combined with quality of weaponry. Shooting arguably has always been better on average then melee/ assult.

My point. Tau either had massive balance issues or could abuse rules of a eddition to the point where it was simply put blank cheese. It does also not help that everytime a new tau codex get's out a massive ammount of new toys come with it for the list to play, often times doubiously balanced (anyone remember the new and imroved support suits with the rocket batteries? Riptides ?).
Additionally Tau are often a skew list, as in can you beat the gunline? No, you lose. Really bad was this during 7th where Tau would just win Eternal war missions, but could not really win in regards to objective holding missions, since their transport was terribly overpriced.

Frankly their aesthetic is uniqe and a fun Tau list that includes differing units (not just firewarriors but also kroot etc.) is always a nice round to have a go against. The same can atm be said about a IG army. One that does not spam mortars and hellhounds.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Imperial players are just upset that there's a faction closer to "Good" than they are. It's a lot harder to see your space Nazis as good when there's a faction that doesn't genocide entire planets of humans or entire alien species on a daily basis.

If you think your faction is good in 40k then you're seeing things wrong. The closest to good is "not evil".

I think it's partly because they used to be a bit different in their attitude of not holding ground and not using big suits but then GW scrubbed it for sales.

Two reasons:

1) People don't understand what "grimdark" means and assume that it requires skulls and purity seals everywhere, completely missing the more subtle references in the Tau and how they are not in any way a "good" faction. They're pragmatic enough to offer you the opportunity to surrender before killing you (after all, slaves are profitable additions to the empire and war is a drain on resources) and use technology to build better guns, but they're also a totalitarian and aggressively expansionist empire with a rigid caste system and a whole lot of hints at real-world colonialism.

2) Tau are a shooting army and don't rush straight into the middle of the table to have both sides roll dice at each other in a giant melee blob until someone wins. This is extremely frustrating for people whose entire knowledge of 40k tactics consists of "move directly at the enemy and declare charges". Unfortunately this is a significant majority of the 40k community.

Karol wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'd wager their shootiness also rubs people the wrong way

But aren't all the good lists in w40k ungodly shoty to begin with? Some are also very good at melee, but there are no good lists, or at least I haven't heard about them, that are just good melee.

In the current meta you can only succeed if you have very powerful shooting and very powerful assault components. What's top tier competitive isn't really relevant though, it's more the design philosophy of a faction that shuns every phase of the game except one.

 Peregrine wrote:
Two reasons:

1) People don't understand what "grimdark" means and assume that it requires skulls and purity seals everywhere, completely missing the more subtle references in the Tau and how they are not in any way a "good" faction. They're pragmatic enough to offer you the opportunity to surrender before killing you (after all, slaves are profitable additions to the empire and war is a drain on resources) and use technology to build better guns, but they're also a totalitarian and aggressively expansionist empire with a rigid caste system and a whole lot of hints at real-world colonialism.

2) Tau are a shooting army and don't rush straight into the middle of the table to have both sides roll dice at each other in a giant melee blob until someone wins. This is extremely frustrating for people whose entire knowledge of 40k tactics consists of "move directly at the enemy and declare charges". Unfortunately this is a significant majority of the 40k community.

HAHAHAA now that is a strawman, friend.
Mind if i just remind you of the broken i can shoot under my antigrav transport / tanks at your units withouth them getting cover whilest you can't?
You know that one time a whole edition and a half?

Taus have fluctuated wildly in effectiveness, and have suffered from very bad internal codex balance, so the best-performing Tau lists have often ended up being spammy or annoying to play against.

GW designed them as a small faction to do shooting above all else with Kroot around for the hacky slash moments.
The issue GW has always had is balancing Tau as they only take part in 1 phase shooting and occasionally 2nd being movement.

Right now Tau are way less mobile than they have been for a while IMHO.

But as what was a mobile shooting heavy army, playing against a well played Tau army was probably super frustrating.

They also by way of having no pshycic phase even defensively and no meaningful assualt unit need to do all their damage in the shooting phase. Which in editions with pshycic phases of doom and assualt T1 ment they had some very one-sided match ups.

Also 8th edition mechanics have removed a lot of mobility and durability from Tau and changed ip what used to be good core units to unplayable trash so if your tau army was from 6/7th you would need a new army for 8th.

there are also the annoying Tau fanboys, you guys know the ones, the ones who GENUINELY belive that the Tau are "good" and insist there is no "sinister subtext" and insist that the Tau could take on the IoM in a straight up fight because "their tech is so much better"
and yeah I've had people try to claim that.

There's some good points here already.

Yes, people dislike playing against Tau largely based on previous editions where they were OP and so no fun to play against. This is not the case now though.

Yes, people (many of them the same as above) dislike their fluff because it is superficially less grimdark than the other factions. Personally I think that's pretty silly for two reasons. Firstly as mentioned above there are plenty of hints in the lore that it is just superficial and that they are in fact a totalitarian dictatorship who brainwashes their entire population. Second because without a little light the dark loses all impact. I call this 'grimderp', the idea that everything has to be totally horrible for everyone all the time. I think that's so silly. It's so much more horrifying if you have the contrast to people doing better.

Anyway, what hasn't been dealt with particularly is why we don't see more of them from GW. There's a simple answer, but one you probably won't like much. Tau are a side race. They are colour for the setting, but they are not the subject of the setting. The galaxy feels bigger for them existing, but at it's heart 40k has and will always be about the Imperium Vs Chaos.

Stux wrote:
There's some good points here already.

Yes, people dislike playing against Tau largely based on previous editions where they were OP and so no fun to play against. This is not the case now though.

Yes, people (many of them the same as above) dislike their fluff because it is superficially less grimdark than the other factions. Personally I think that's pretty silly for two reasons. Firstly as mentioned above there are plenty of hints in the lore that it is just superficial and that they are in fact a totalitarian dictatorship who brainwashes their entire population. Second because without a little light the dark loses all impact. I call this 'grimderp', the idea that everything has to be totally horrible for everyone all the time. I think that's so silly. It's so much more horrifying if you have the contrast to people doing better.

Anyway, what hasn't been dealt with particularly is why we don't see more of them from GW. There's a simple answer, but one you probably won't like much. Tau are a side race. They are colour for the setting, but they are not the subject of the setting. The galaxy feels bigger for them existing, but at it's heart 40k has and will always be about the Imperium Vs Chaos.

Also the Tau are restricted to a small part of the galaxy. "I want to fight Tau" automaticly forces you to set the story in the eastren fringe

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Two reasons:

1) People don't understand what "grimdark" means and assume that it requires skulls and purity seals everywhere, completely missing the more subtle references in the Tau and how they are not in any way a "good" faction. They're pragmatic enough to offer you the opportunity to surrender before killing you (after all, slaves are profitable additions to the empire and war is a drain on resources) and use technology to build better guns, but they're also a totalitarian and aggressively expansionist empire with a rigid caste system and a whole lot of hints at real-world colonialism.

2) Tau are a shooting army and don't rush straight into the middle of the table to have both sides roll dice at each other in a giant melee blob until someone wins. This is extremely frustrating for people whose entire knowledge of 40k tactics consists of "move directly at the enemy and declare charges". Unfortunately this is a significant majority of the 40k community.

HAHAHAA now that is a strawman, friend.
Mind if i just remind you of the broken i can shoot under my antigrav transport / tanks at your units withouth them getting cover whilest you can't?
You know that one time a whole edition and a half?

Pots and kettles. Eldar, DE, and Marines (or you know, literally everyone with a skimmer. These rules were not unique to Tau. they were the basic rules of the game) could do this. Just because Tau made good use of it is no reason to get salty. For many editions Tau had brought a gun to the knife fight that was 40k, in that HTH was far more effective than shooting so they had to take every advantage in that area they could.

BrianDavion wrote:
there are also the annoying Tau fanboys, you guys know the ones, the ones who GENUINELY belive that the Tau are "good" and insist there is no "sinister subtext" and insist that the Tau could take on the IoM in a straight up fight because "their tech is so much better"
and yeah I've had people try to claim that.

They could though, it's just only if the Imperium decides to retaliate in the normal way of Warzones on countless fronts fighting stuff piecemeal instead of bringing the full might of humanity to bear in a single place that the Tau could take them. The Imperium could wipe out any race tomorrow if they wanted to but the bureaucracy and infighting prevents that.

I think one of the issues could be the game design behind them. For most of the time of their existence, Tau - and Necrons and Craftworld Eldar for a long time as well - had their playstyle defined by rule mechanics that tended towards griefing the other player. They were not fun to play against, and with Tau that started in 3rd edition already with the JSJ shenanigans that slower armies practically had no counters for.
To be honest, I don't remember a single game against Tau that I would classify as a fun game, but I haven't fought them in 8th edition yet, maybe it's better now.
Armies that rely on stuff that you don't get to kill to win are somewhat boring opponents because the games often feel like only the other guy actually gets to play.

I didn’t like Tau because of their visual aesthetics, and they were made just to get anime battletech lovers into the game.
White tiger zord, morph into Voltron’s butthole!

Or something like that.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I didn’t like Tau because of their visual aesthetics, and they were made just to get anime battletech lovers into the game.
White tiger zord, morph into Voltron’s butthole!

Or something like that.

And Eldar weren't?

Eldar have just as much "Anime" design cues in them as Tau do.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I didn’t like Tau because of their visual aesthetics, and they were made just to get anime battletech lovers into the game.
White tiger zord, morph into Voltron’s butthole!

Or something like that.

But...battletech...isn't anime...?

Imperial Knights/Titans are battletech ripoffs. not Tau.

Like, REALLY REALLY OBVIOUS battletech ripoffs.

bibotot wrote:
I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar. In fact, the reason they are so often played is because they were overpowered in 5th to 8th edition. The producers have made very little effort to publicize the Tau. Now, you can say the same thing to the Dark Eldar, but the Tau should be more marketable and appealing to the mass.

No Tau is featured in supplement campaign books like Valedor or Damnos.

Tau only has 1 shooter game and that one was bad. They appear in Dark Crusade, Soulstorm, Retribution Last Stand and Battlefleet Gothic Armada, but these games aim to feature as many factions as possible. There is no Tau in the campaign for both the latter games.

Very little mention of the Tau in the current lore such as Gathering Storm and Indomitus Crusade. We know they are planning another invasion after their Fourth Sphere went wrong, but we don't get much of what the remnant of their fleet are doing after being flung across the galaxy by the Warp storm. The Tau are quite close to Ultramar, so you would expect Papa Smurf to have a word with them over territorial disputes.

Tau had quite some campaigns in 6th/7th edition and are one of the best supported armies in the game, probably the best supported Xenos and I'd even say better than imperial guard.

Fluffwise, Tau are irrelevant for the setting, that's why they don't feature in the Gathering Storm and Indomitus Crusade. The Tau are by far the smallest faction in the game (aside from Space Marine chapters).

Of course BT is anime. Almost all - over 40 in fact - early BT mech designs were "appropriated", from 1980s Japanese anime shows: Macross, Dougram and Crusher Joe and another I don't remember. That is the entire reason why there are still lawsuits being fought over them.

They're an expensive army, monetarily speaking, with some of the more effective builds not utilizing things that people really like the looks of.

bibotot wrote:
No Tau is featured in supplement campaign books like Valedor or Damnos.

Warzone Damocles was the tau one.
And Taros from forgeworld.

bibotot wrote:
I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar.....

Hmm, I wonder why that could be...

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Imperial players are just upset....

I don't really need to show much beyond that, really.

And that poster is actually a pretty good person, I know they're just playing and having a laugh. All in good fun, as it should be.

But there were no shortage of Tau players that had obnoxiously bad attitudes. I call it the 'XBox attitude'. Constantly in 7th Edition, we would have guys showing up and asking "So which one of these is the top army?" And, of course, makes a Grognard like me just cringe and grind my teeth. (I'm a believer in 'the best army is the one you like'). Not only did we have people asking this, but you'd always have some other kid just like him blurting out- "You want Tau!" Now you have local Metas with kids plopping down their unpainted and slapshod-constructed Grey Gundams with sprue burs and mold lines everywhere, and doing rather well because they treat it like a video game-

Well, let's just say that some of us sometimes forget that the game isn't the same for everyone. For some folks, it's... more like a video game. To each their own. The lesson to learn from that is to just... not play with people like that, and eventually when they only people they can play with are each other- those Gundams and Fishyboys will be on eBay in a week or so.

That, or you can mandate the 'tabletop standard paint' requirement at tournaments and watch the comical lengths those sorts of guys go to just to barely achieve that standard enough to go and 'beat people at the game'.

Being on the internet wasn't much better. Literally every discussion about armies and the like was constantly interrupted by people coming in and filling up the comments or Facebook groups with poorly-spelled bellowing about how great their Tau was and how easy it was for them to destroy this and that (and many times it was evident they'd only played against a couple of guys using Dark Vengeance or Start Collecting Space Marine boxes). For perspective- every time you read a comments section related to Warhammer 40k, just replace every comment about Sisters of Battle with someone gloating about their Tau. That's the issue.

In short, there was a stereotype of associating them with people that had less... 'friendly casual' attitudes. It wasn't entirely true, I knew quite a few that were not only cool people- but competitive and were more than willing to show you the best ways to counter their stuff and help you- which was wonderful when you got to wipe the smile off the Grey Gundam Gunline boys' faces.

I can say that random online discussions are much better out in the wild without them coming in with the hyper-competitive gloating about Tau... sort of. It's not a 40k discussion unless someone whines about Sisters of Battle, someone asks about Squats, and someone comes in to yell at us about how dumb we are for not playing Horus Heresy.

One thing about Tau is that they played kind of vastly different from everything else at the time, So people were kind of annoyed at that. I've heard it said that Tau were one of those factions that really forced people to go out and buy models they didn't use before to counter them- which is kind of annoying, I suppose. I can't confirm this is true.

Otherwise- not much that you can ask for out of them. They're kinda stuck out there, and if they're going into Ultramar and Bobby G isn't concerned, that should tell you the situation is well in hand.

I don't like playing Tau because all they do is sit in a corner, and shoot. They practically skip the movement phase, and they avoid the charge and fight phases like the plague. Its....just boring to play against them...

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I didn’t like Tau because of their visual aesthetics, and they were made just to get anime battletech lovers into the game.
White tiger zord, morph into Voltron’s butthole!

Or something like that.

I agree. The bad thing about this whole affair is that the original anime mechs look much better than the stuff GW tries to peddle to it´s customers. That´s the reason why I don´t have a single Tau model in my collection. And just to complete this post: Necron models are hideous too.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I didn’t like Tau because of their visual aesthetics, and they were made just to get anime battletech lovers into the game.
White tiger zord, morph into Voltron’s butthole!

Or something like that.

I agree. The bad thing about this whole affair is that the original anime mechs look much better than the stuff GW tries to peddle to it´s customers. That´s the reason why I don´t have a single Tau model in my collection. And just to complete this post: Necron models are hideous too.

I just see variety as a good thing to be honest. Not everything will be to everyone's taste. I happen to think the battlesuits look pretty sweet generally.

Well, I personally hate them for being the utter antithesis of my beloved Orks. They're sleek, high tech, and suck at melee, which makes them the lowest scum in Ork eyes.

Unpopular opinion mode, go!

Tau are in fact, very popular. They're the best selling xenos faction locally and I believe (but can not prove) that extends outward given how rapidly their new tentpole releases sold out at launch compared to others - and the fact that they updated the existing crisis suit kit before working on the more desperately needy chaos, orks, or SoB ranges.

And why shouldn't they be? They have a distinct look with large flat panels, a background and disposition that's refreshingly positive for the setting (but not, despite claims, incompatible with the setting), and represent the concept of a sci-fi future war army in a way the Imperium can't.

They scratch an itch the other factions can't.

And ultimately that's all that matters. Questions of balance are ephemeral (proof: Tau are pretty bad right now), questions of plot relevance are up to GW (and as of Warzone Damocles the argument that they'd be wiped out if the Imperium just tried has been rejected), and questions of player fractional loyalty are wierd and sad (the Imperium does not actually exist, this is all just a game.)

Unpopular opinion mode, stop!

CrimsonComedian wrote:
Well, I personally hate them for being the utter antithesis of my beloved Orks. They're sleek, high tech, and suck at melee, which makes them the lowest scum in Ork eyes.

You're just jealous that they have more dakka

 IronBrand wrote:

CrimsonComedian wrote:
Well, I personally hate them for being the utter antithesis of my beloved Orks. They're sleek, high tech, and suck at melee, which makes them the lowest scum in Ork eyes.

You're just jealous that they have more dakka

Tau have weird unorky shooting. They aren't loud or flashy. It isn't proper Dakka.

I don't like tau cause:

Ugly models.
Seems fishy.
Anime is a tired genre.
Kroot are dumb.
Ascetically they are not pleasing.
The greater good?
Drone Markerlights what?
Have they ever been good?

Tau are one of the better armies in the game. I rank them above Guard.

Their volume of shooting is amazing, their stratagems are great and they can use a ton of them thanks to dirt cheap troop squads and cheap HQs. The change to seeker missiles being D6 in the codex was also huge.

But it certainly isn't fun to play against them, I can't imagine it being fun to play them. You put your models down, and people can either bust your gunline or not.

Oh, there's also the fact that admitting to be a Tau player seems to draw an inordinate amount of hate/bile.

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau are one of the better armies in the game. I rank them above Guard.

Their volume of shooting is amazing, their stratagems are great and they can use a ton of them thanks to dirt cheap troop squads and cheap HQs. The change to seeker missiles being D6 in the codex was also huge.

But it certainly isn't fun to play against them, I can't imagine it being fun to play them. You put your models down, and people can either bust your gunline or not.

See, I've not used Tau yet in 8th. I've got a Farsight Battlesuit centric army from 5th and I'm getting the itch to use them a bit yet the impression I get from here (and other threads) is this weird paradox of Tau being unfun to play against yet Farsight and Crisis suits (a meat and potatoes core unit of Tau IMO) are trash. So which is it?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I didn’t like Tau because of their visual aesthetics, and they were made just to get anime battletech lovers into the game.
White tiger zord, morph into Voltron’s butthole!

Or something like that.

And Eldar weren't?

Eldar have just as much "Anime" design cues in them as Tau do.

not quite. I will say they take some anime ques in their vehicles, but most of their units derive from elves in fantasy settings. contrast that with all of the tau units (vehicles, suits and infantry) outside of kroot who borrow from anime. eldar probably would have borrowed more from anime in its design though if it were as big of a thing then the eldar were released.

Having played my friends Tau army a few times, I personally found them boring. Granted this was back in 7th but most of my units never moved/ nor did they need to. Only had assault go off with Kroot that was one sided, no pyskers and it was mostly roll dice, remove opponents models, rinse and repeat. I found it to be an army that didn't really interact with my opponent much especially with how easy it was to also strip cover saves away.

bibotot wrote:
I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar. In fact, the reason they are so often played is because they were overpowered in 5th to 8th edition. The producers have made very little effort to publicize the Tau. Now, you can say the same thing to the Dark Eldar, but the Tau should be more marketable and appealing to the mass.

No Tau is featured in supplement campaign books like Valedor or Damnos.

Tau only has 1 shooter game and that one was bad. They appear in Dark Crusade, Soulstorm, Retribution Last Stand and Battlefleet Gothic Armada, but these games aim to feature as many factions as possible. There is no Tau in the campaign for both the latter games.

Very little mention of the Tau in the current lore such as Gathering Storm and Indomitus Crusade. We know they are planning another invasion after their Fourth Sphere went wrong, but we don't get much of what the remnant of their fleet are doing after being flung across the galaxy by the Warp storm. The Tau are quite close to Ultramar, so you would expect Papa Smurf to have a word with them over territorial disputes.

You What??
Tau are certainly one of the more popular races, as others have said, yes they have featured in campaign books, in fact they had two and were one of the few armies last edition to receive a codex supplement in the form of the farsight enclaves book. Tau had one game to themselves, that's one more game than nearly all the non imperial factions of 40k. There has been mention of them in the current lore but as their campaign was quite recent GW are of course going to give other stuff a turn in the spotlight, not to mention the huge lore upheaval that the all the latest events have caused and so GW are of course going to want to promote that as well given that's what is currently new. They are still popular, I'm sure they'll get their turn, be patient.

Tau are Xenos Imperial Guard.

That's all it comes down to - people don't like IG (because of their one-phase gameplay plan).

Add in GW's movement towards making them more Guardsman based *ahem* Firewarrior based, instead of their iconic Battlesuits... and you've got an army that's a Xenos copy+paste, and hardly fleshed out.

I, for one, like their take on the lore and brutality; and love their suits conceptually - but suits aren't a focus this edition...

fe40k wrote:
Tau are Xenos Imperial Guard.

That's all it comes down to - people don't like IG (because of their one-phase gameplay plan).

Add in GW's movement towards making them more Guardsman based *ahem* Firewarrior based, instead of their iconic Battlesuits... and you've got an army that's a Xenos copy+paste, and hardly fleshed out.

I, for one, like their take on the lore and brutality; and love their suits conceptually - but suits aren't a focus this edition...

The state of Crisis suits is very sad :(

Similar to Terminators basically.

Space communism.... not even once

Tau are very popular, they have been easier to play than most faction for a long time, have a full plastic range, have been featured in several campaigns books (Damnos, the one in two books vs GI and Space Marines), they were mentionned in the fluff for 3rd expansion sphere, 4th AND 5th , against the Gorgon hive fleet, in a very short time...
That's way more than necrons, Deldars or orks I guess.
To my mind, they are the favourite xenos amry of GW

I don't want to attribute any stereotypes to Tau players because it's really hard to do on an accurate level. I've known one Tau main who only played them as his power army and only played WAAC lists. I knew one who always played them rain or shine and played a variety of lists including, but not limited to WAAC lists. Armies have all kinds. The only trend I have traditionally seen be consistent is younger people really liking them, but that is no reason to hate Tau.

Why I personally really don't like them goes back to their design philosophy. They shoot and that's it. I had one game where I showed up with my Primaris force and got DUMPSTERED T1 by a Tau list. I was Raven Guard and still got blown effectively blown off the board in one round of shooting in 1850 points to 2x stormsurge and 1x riptide and even THEN that is not the worst they could do. Of course my return fire was grossly ineffective because of shield drones so I ended up giving up in my own shooting phase lol. Now I completely realize my army was not on the same level of strength and it's not the first or last time I will get put in a trash can, but what made that game so boring and unfun for both sides was the design philosophy of Tau. DO note I am not saying all Tau games are like this. I am just using an example from my personal experience.

Tau shoot you and table you or you get in melee and butcher them. To say they literally play one phase of the game is only slightly exaggerating and that's the problem. It's not even a matter of if they are weak, balanced or OP because no matter what the majority of the time their games will always be the same game played over and over.

The Imperial Guard are also similar to this, but do have a few redeeming factors in that that they have a massive variety of options that do include some viable assault options and massive potential for allies or to be allied in to other Imperial forces. I don't like playing against the Tau, but I have no problem or stigma towards Tau players.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau are one of the better armies in the game. I rank them above Guard.

Their volume of shooting is amazing, their stratagems are great and they can use a ton of them thanks to dirt cheap troop squads and cheap HQs. The change to seeker missiles being D6 in the codex was also huge.

But it certainly isn't fun to play against them, I can't imagine it being fun to play them. You put your models down, and people can either bust your gunline or not.

See, I've not used Tau yet in 8th. I've got a Farsight Battlesuit centric army from 5th and I'm getting the itch to use them a bit yet the impression I get from here (and other threads) is this weird paradox of Tau being unfun to play against yet Farsight and Crisis suits (a meat and potatoes core unit of Tau IMO) are trash. So which is it?

Sadly a mix of both.
You got a tiny speck of great stuff (most HQ), good troops and riptides ain't half bad.

The entire rest of the codex however, including Farsight and crisis suits, ranges from barely playable to not even casual playable.


This leads to tau playable lists bring very repetitive even in casual play, and a such quickly get annoying.

-manga style doens't belong in 40k imo
-they rape pure CC lists because
a) they will deploy in large bubbles and "all in 6" can overwatch" in combo with
b) almost everything has fly so you made it in combat, they move out and shoot you in your face...
-annoying to play against (ignore cover, -1/2 to hit, rerolls everywhere,...)

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau are one of the better armies in the game. I rank them above Guard.

Their volume of shooting is amazing, their stratagems are great and they can use a ton of them thanks to dirt cheap troop squads and cheap HQs. The change to seeker missiles being D6 in the codex was also huge.

But it certainly isn't fun to play against them, I can't imagine it being fun to play them. You put your models down, and people can either bust your gunline or not.

See, I've not used Tau yet in 8th. I've got a Farsight Battlesuit centric army from 5th and I'm getting the itch to use them a bit yet the impression I get from here (and other threads) is this weird paradox of Tau being unfun to play against yet Farsight and Crisis suits (a meat and potatoes core unit of Tau IMO) are trash. So which is it?

Sadly a mix of both.
You got a tiny speck of great stuff (most HQ), good troops and riptides ain't half bad.

The entire rest of the codex however, including Farsight and crisis suits, ranges from barely playable to not even casual playable.


This leads to tau playable lists bring very repetitive even in casual play, and a such quickly get annoying.

Repetitive is the name of the game for Tau, moreso than other factions they had some outliers that you were forced to play meanwhile the rest of the Codex, there to provide flavour to the army in a more casual environment is just not worth playing. This leads to the problem that each and every Tau army list seems identical.
Previous editions it was Crisis or bust, now it is HQ + gunline. Stuff like Kroot never seem to make the cut in lists, units that fundamentaly play diffrent. Frankly the same can be said about IG atm but atleast IG has an assult build with catachan and a gunline build.
In essence it is a problem of those armies that have really specialised in one field. Orks now also suffer from this since mekboy warbands (Kanz, gunz and lots of tanks ) are virtually non existent. Basically they face the same problem now, their diffrent playstyles suffered under the simplification of the ruleset which killed off a lot of variety. Tau just had that problem for longer and are decent enough to draw the ire of people, ergo they get a bad (sometimes deserved, sometimes not) reputation.

 wallygator wrote:
-manga style doens't belong in 40k imo
-they rape pure CC lists because
a) they will deploy in large bubbles and "all in 6" can overwatch" in combo with
b) almost everything has fly so you made it in combat, they move out and shoot you in your face...
-annoying to play against (ignore cover, -1/2 to hit, rerolls everywhere,...)

Seriously you when exclusively CC and don't have an overwatch mitigation strategy, you dereved to loose.
Appart from all of thier mandatory troops and most useful HQ choice.
Tau don't have a -1 to hit army trait and only 1 unit has the ability to be -2 to hit.
You think Tau have re-rolls good luck against the Gman parking lot.

This is also why people don't play Tau people love to hate them regardless of the truth.

pm713 wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:

CrimsonComedian wrote:
Well, I personally hate them for being the utter antithesis of my beloved Orks. They're sleek, high tech, and suck at melee, which makes them the lowest scum in Ork eyes.

You're just jealous that they have more dakka

Tau have weird unorky shooting. They aren't loud or flashy. It isn't proper Dakka.

No idea about flashy, but guass weapons are kinetic, and this means when they hit, they hit hard and that makes ton of sound, unless the target is made out of feathers.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau are one of the better armies in the game. I rank them above Guard.

Their volume of shooting is amazing, their stratagems are great and they can use a ton of them thanks to dirt cheap troop squads and cheap HQs. The change to seeker missiles being D6 in the codex was also huge.

But it certainly isn't fun to play against them, I can't imagine it being fun to play them. You put your models down, and people can either bust your gunline or not.

See, I've not used Tau yet in 8th. I've got a Farsight Battlesuit centric army from 5th and I'm getting the itch to use them a bit yet the impression I get from here (and other threads) is this weird paradox of Tau being unfun to play against yet Farsight and Crisis suits (a meat and potatoes core unit of Tau IMO) are trash. So which is it?

Sadly a mix of both.
You got a tiny speck of great stuff (most HQ), good troops and riptides ain't half bad.

The entire rest of the codex however, including Farsight and crisis suits, ranges from barely playable to not even casual playable.


This leads to tau playable lists bring very repetitive even in casual play, and a such quickly get annoying.

This isn't at all true.

HQs and troops are *fantastic* and you can easily field 3x Battalion if you wanted to do it.

And, you have numerous vehicles that are very solid when paired with a Longstrike.

Tau are in a great spot with a variety of builds that work at the competitive level.

 Marmatag wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau are one of the better armies in the game. I rank them above Guard.

Their volume of shooting is amazing, their stratagems are great and they can use a ton of them thanks to dirt cheap troop squads and cheap HQs. The change to seeker missiles being D6 in the codex was also huge.

But it certainly isn't fun to play against them, I can't imagine it being fun to play them. You put your models down, and people can either bust your gunline or not.

See, I've not used Tau yet in 8th. I've got a Farsight Battlesuit centric army from 5th and I'm getting the itch to use them a bit yet the impression I get from here (and other threads) is this weird paradox of Tau being unfun to play against yet Farsight and Crisis suits (a meat and potatoes core unit of Tau IMO) are trash. So which is it?

Sadly a mix of both.
You got a tiny speck of great stuff (most HQ), good troops and riptides ain't half bad.

The entire rest of the codex however, including Farsight and crisis suits, ranges from barely playable to not even casual playable.


This leads to tau playable lists bring very repetitive even in casual play, and a such quickly get annoying.

This isn't at all true.

HQs and troops are *fantastic* and you can easily field 3x Battalion if you wanted to do it.

And, you have numerous vehicles that are very solid when paired with a Longstrike.

Tau are in a great spot with a variety of builds that work at the competitive level.

Eeer, what?
You say what I said is not at all true, then practically repeat my words that the HQs a d troops are good....

And for numerous vehicles supported by longstrike.
Lonstrike supports ONLY hammerheads, who once he is dead (no hard, he has no extra protection compared to any other hammerhead) are equivalent at best to the predator, who is hardly impressive itself.
Any other vehicle has no support in the entire codex, and is generally bad. So are most suits, planes, etc.

You have ONE decent unit per slot (with forgeworld one slot has amazingly 2 decent units) , except HQ who has several but the codex has a unique "only one per detachment" limitation on the type not meant for infantry gunline.
And he codex is filled to the brim with redundancy that do many options are effectively none existent as five other things have the exact same effect, and you need them anyway.

This tau codex is as cookie cutter as it gets. It's poorly written and is no fun to play with or against.
I got about 5k of tau, from a wide range of units. And every list ends up looking exactly the same.
My TS/tzeentch army is half the size at about 2.5k, yet it feels far fuller in options. And these ain't exactly big factions either.

Of course, this assumes your talking solely about a very competitive analysis.

I'm a huge fan of Kroot.
Being able to run lots of Carnivores is great!
The Rule of 2/3/4 has really screwed with my all Kroot list limiting me to 2 Shapers, 2 squads of Hounds, and 2 squad of Krootox. Since most games are 1,000 or less.

But you know what?
I'm still gonna play it!
Using an Etherial as HQ, with a Master Shaper counts as model, since Kroot are effected by the Etherial's abilities, it works, fluffwise.

Will I win games, probably not, but it'll fun and fluffy.

If your games are 1k or less, I'd try this beta rule:
"Dude, it's Kroot. Mind if I take third Shaper/Hound/Krootox".

 Blndmage wrote:
Of course, this assumes your talking solely about a very competitive analysis.

I'm a huge fan of Kroot.

I'd like Kroot a lot more if GW didn't nerf them further every edition.

One, their playstyle isn't very dynamic. Granted, it's more dynamic than a Gorillaman Gunline since Tau have interesting things like infiltrators and other little tricks, but it's by and large a gunline.

Two, their fluff and design has always struck me as kind of boring. I mean, what exactly are they from a fluff standpoint? Imperials are the "good" guys who resort to awful things just to keep going, Chaos is the corrupting force behind most of the horrible stuff in the universe, necrons are instigators of the old war that began all this crap and are an ancient threat, Eldar and Dark Eldar are the hypocritical fops who think they're all high-and-mighty despite the fact that they've screwed over the universe the most, orks are the genocidal, war-mongering, irredeemable race that somehow serves as this setting's comedic relief, and Tyrannids are the absolutely terrifying beings from another galaxy that are probably the biggest threat out there. The Tau though? They're just some random upstart race that has decent technology.

That, and their designs are utterly boring. They're basically skinny, blue humans piloting Mobile Suit Gundams. None of their robots even seem that menacing compared to the Imperium or especially the orks.

It sounds like it's the players and not the Tau. Knuckleheads are born and bred every day. I like the Tau because they are different. I'd rather be different than like everyone else. I'm just learning so I'll be the better kind of Tau player.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
One, their playstyle isn't very dynamic. Granted, it's more dynamic than a Gorillaman Gunline since Tau have interesting things like infiltrators and other little tricks, but it's by and large a gunline.

Two, their fluff and design has always struck me as kind of boring. I mean, what exactly are they from a fluff standpoint? Imperials are the "good" guys who resort to awful things just to keep going, Chaos is the corrupting force behind most of the horrible stuff in the universe, necrons are instigators of the old war that began all this crap and are an ancient threat, Eldar and Dark Eldar are the hypocritical fops who think they're all high-and-mighty despite the fact that they've screwed over the universe the most, orks are the genocidal, war-mongering, irredeemable race that somehow serves as this setting's comedic relief, and Tyrannids are the absolutely terrifying beings from another galaxy that are probably the biggest threat out there. The Tau though? They're just some random upstart race that has decent technology.

That, and their designs are utterly boring. They're basically skinny, blue humans piloting Mobile Suit Gundams. None of their robots even seem that menacing compared to the Imperium or especially the orks.

They fill the role if the young idealistic race (though very different ideals from modern western ideals) that is new to the grand conflict and is only now learning the true horror of the setting.
They are the mirror to the past four humanity much like humanity is for the eldar, look at were we cans from-young, native, still believing the galaxy is simply ours for the taking and not fully gasping that we are only one of many fish in the pond, and not a big one.

And no, they don't seem menecing. They don't try to be. They seem efficient and calculated as one who ultimately care only for results, and in some perspective its far scarier-because that's the one faction you can be sure will do everything to win, and the hell with "looking good" while at it. (see shadowsun VS corvin for reference if what happens when you want to look good rather than only care for victory.)
In a galaxy where everyone are going on about honor, glory and imagery, the tau just don't care. They are there to win, not for a fashion show.
It's not for everyone, but it's a style.

Tau don't fight war with terror, which is what makes them stand out, and I think it's good. It's not like they're not also as dark as the rest, but about how they present and conduct themselves.

Most of the people posting dislikes of Tau were apparently never in the military. Tau play very much like a modern mechanized military, not unlike today’s US Army. I’ve always found them fascinating, but the people play them tend to come of a bit dickish. However, if I wanted to play “real” Army, I’d play Advanced Squad Leader. This is my fantasy stress relief hobby, so I play Grey Knights (space Paladins) and Imperial Knights (BattleMechs).

SJ

The problem with Tau is that most of their list has, in any given edition, been crap.

Kroot were a thing once.
Infantry plus vehicles (actually not terrible in 8th although you don't bother with transports)
Crisis suits (....)
Riptides, Stormsurges, all the anime all the time.

But yeah, the army is designed to build the best gunline you ever saw, and trying almost everything else is an exercise in frustration. So I think it has niche appeal. Every game is the same.

Tau have a coupe of issues, one of which is similar to the ultramarine legacy.

People don’t like ultramarine because people didn’t like ultramarines in the past and it’s cool to hate on them, same with tau, when they were introduced the codex line up was very very slow, they pushed other armies aside (perceived) to make room for a new race that didn’t fit the setting at all (at the time), the models were totally different from what people were used to and they played quite differently.

The other issue is of course the theme of the army, they are a sqaure peg for a round hole, they just don’t fit into 40k like All the other races do, which is actually why I like them, because they are different within 40k fluff...

Lack of allies AKA no Tau soup options other than sour Tau with spicy Tau.

Considering the amount of new plastic kits Tau get all the time considering the army 'just' released in 2003, and even got a re-release of the relatively young 2003-plastic troop box (I can't recall that happening for most other races besides Space Marines and Dark Eldar as the other special exception... many like Orks, Guard or Necrons have decade old plastic 3rd edition troops kits) should tell you how popular they are saleswise. There have also always been plenty Tau players around since their launch.

They can be pretty unfun to play with when the Tau player goes pure "sit in corner and never move" gunline (even if that isn't a great idea in 8th edition), they were very OP in 6th and extremely OP in 7th edition and the fact that a few people either don't like the more "Asian"/"manga" (let's be honest, most suits are heavily inspired by Gundam) aesthetic, or that they at first glance appear to be the only knights in shining armour "good guys" in the setting (which they are not, the grimdark for them comes from very Orwellian/1984-esque themes), so a vocal minority makes a point of showing their displeasure (it's even worse for Space Wolves though, particularly on /tg/).

Them not popping up in video games much has more to do with them neither being Space Marines (#1 pick for 90% of 40k videogames, close to 100% if they are the only playable faction - Fire Warrior remains a massive exeption) nor the holy quaternity of Space Marines/Orks/Eldar/Chaos. When Space Marines are already guaranteed to fill the "good guys" spot in any game (usually together with the Eldar, particularly in Dawn of War) and either Chaos or Xenos have to fill the antagonist spots, little place remains for Tau, as the third "good guy" slot usually gets taken by Guard in expansions. If anything if you want underrepresented video game factions just look at Dark Eldar or Sisters of Battle.

Lots of people hate Tau because they associate it with anime and use that as a punchingbag for their own insecurity. Other people hate them because they tend to have terrible internal balance so lists tend to be cheesier the worst internal balance is. This is made even worse because the shooting phase is the only one that really matters so most lists have quite a bit of mathhammer in them. Savior protocols is also enraging to play against and I have lost count of how many times I have seen the mood go sour because my opponent didn't know/forgot it turns any attack into a single mortal wound. Even Commanders don't hold a candle to savior protocols for the sheer amount of salt drones produce.

As a quick reply from a T'au player:

I picked the Tau because I liked the looks of a wider range of models than in any other army... at that point I haven't read the codex, didn't know the rules and certainly haven't checked what lists won what where... I just liked painting the models.

When I finally started playing I played the models I had painted for the looks. Not caring about "the meta" or any of that stuff. The buddy that got me into the game built a list to match mine and we had a blast every time.

Now meeting the other 40k players: I got cursed at. I was always told how overpowered Tau are (also while a player dished out 11 wounds with "kill instantaneously (2x strength compared to toughness)... something the shooty Tau never could do, not even while shooting. The complaining turned into constant white noise.

I stopped playing my Tau and now I stopped playing 40k totally... I've played other table top games and none of the groups were into "building the strongest lists" and being all competitive... they all tried to have balanced fun game nights.

Maybe the problem is not the Tau, but the group of 40k players thinking that every game is tournament play. - I really regret having started 40k

I dislike Tau for two reasons.

I don’t think that they fit the aesthetic of warhammer 40k. IMO they look too high tech. I would have preferred it if they basically were samurai in space, but they aren’t. They have nice models, but I don’t feel like they fit in this universe.

They are a very one dimensional army. They have shooting and that’s about it. Most armies in the game are at least built around 2 phases, sometimes 3 if you’re lucky. It’s not the fault of Tau players, because they have no choice. If they want to win, they have to kite you from a distance and shoot you before you touch them, if they don’t do this they lose. So it creates a very skewed game that ends up being unfun for one of the players. You either reach them and win, or don’t and lose.

At least GW could give them some close combat gundams for counter assault.

They are so mono dimensional shooting type of army. Obviously there are people like the prometheus78 that didn't understand this when they try to play them but more often there are the majority of tau players that knew the playstyle before they purchased their first fire warrior. Tau players do not engage with their opoonent. They sit in a corner and shoot most of the time not even engaging with the mission because its harder for t'au to go out and cap objectives than it is to sit back and shoot you off the table. In a face to face social game this is really uncomfortable style of game to play against. If I was given the choice for a fun engaging game I would never choose tau.

But looking at the opposite mono dimensional army of the orks, everyone loves playing as and against orks.

obviously this is slightly different in 8th but only very slightly.

I admit though that the tau aesthetic and storyline is awesome but in the game they just aren't fun for opponents the same way playing against a bobby g gunline isnt fun.

Tau players go out and build a melee army and engage with your opponent even though you will lose i guarantee it will be fun

The reason me and my group of mates dint like them is that, 1 they are too “good” in a universe where it’s all supposed to be bad guys and 2, they are a relatively new, come from nowhere race that were a marketing ploy as opposed to a useful addition to the game.

I know they have a sinister edge with ethereals mind controlling and stuff but they just aren’t as mean and unpleasant as everyone else. The imperium aren’t good guys, they are evil in a truly evil way.

Hate fighting against gunlines (looking at you IG) but love the Tau. Slowly building up a Farsight force and I have zero intention of going for the gunline.

lare2 wrote:
Hate fighting against gunlines (looking at you IG) but love the Tau. Slowly building up a Farsight force and I have zero intention of going for the gunline.

Sounds like fun. Lets meet up and you can play against my ork gunline army. It will be a bloodbath for all the wrong reasons!

 nurgle86 wrote:
They are so mono dimensional shooting type of army. Obviously there are people like the prometheus78 that didn't understand this when they try to play them but more often there are the majority of tau players that knew the playstyle before they purchased their first fire warrior. Tau players do not engage with their opoonent. They sit in a corner and shoot most of the time not even engaging with the mission because its harder for t'au to go out and cap objectives than it is to sit back and shoot you off the table. In a face to face social game this is really uncomfortable style of game to play against. If I was given the choice for a fun engaging game I would never choose tau.

But looking at the opposite mono dimensional army of the orks, everyone loves playing as and against orks.

obviously this is slightly different in 8th but only very slightly.

I admit though that the tau aesthetic and storyline is awesome but in the game they just aren't fun for opponents the same way playing against a bobby g gunline isnt fun.

Tau players go out and build a melee army and engage with your opponent even though you will lose i guarantee it will be fun

Yeah. It's amazing how much fun the game is overall when people go outside the box with their army. Tau can't do a literal melee army, but one of my favorite armies to play against is my buddy's Viorla sept tau, with lots of Breachers, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits and pretty much nothing with over 18" range. It basically just survives melee and bounces around, and really only charges if it wants to tie something up, but it's a far more dynamic style of play than the sit-and-shoot style.

We've got people in our group that play melee eldar, fluffy emperor's children/slaanesh daemons, jump pack heavy night lords, walker orks...

the_scotsman wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
They are so mono dimensional shooting type of army. Obviously there are people like the prometheus78 that didn't understand this when they try to play them but more often there are the majority of tau players that knew the playstyle before they purchased their first fire warrior. Tau players do not engage with their opoonent. They sit in a corner and shoot most of the time not even engaging with the mission because its harder for t'au to go out and cap objectives than it is to sit back and shoot you off the table. In a face to face social game this is really uncomfortable style of game to play against. If I was given the choice for a fun engaging game I would never choose tau.

But looking at the opposite mono dimensional army of the orks, everyone loves playing as and against orks.

obviously this is slightly different in 8th but only very slightly.

I admit though that the tau aesthetic and storyline is awesome but in the game they just aren't fun for opponents the same way playing against a bobby g gunline isnt fun.

Tau players go out and build a melee army and engage with your opponent even though you will lose i guarantee it will be fun

Yeah. It's amazing how much fun the game is overall when people go outside the box with their army. Tau can't do a literal melee army, but one of my favorite armies to play against is my buddy's Viorla sept tau, with lots of Breachers, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits and pretty much nothing with over 18" range. It basically just survives melee and bounces around, and really only charges if it wants to tie something up, but it's a far more dynamic style of play than the sit-and-shoot style.

We've got people in our group that play melee eldar, fluffy emperor's children/slaanesh daemons, jump pack heavy night lords, walker orks...

That would be something interesting to see in action, still i miss the variety that supposedly comes with a Tau army in form of auxilia. Infact i would not even be opposed to Gue'la units for tau, if it meant less sitting in a corner and more central bord interaction. Also , Kroot, why do they suck since, well nearly forever? could we boost them, just so that they might be worth taking?

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah. It's amazing how much fun the game is overall when people go outside the box with their army. Tau can't do a literal melee army, but one of my favorite armies to play against is my buddy's Viorla sept tau, with lots of Breachers, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits and pretty much nothing with over 18" range. It basically just survives melee and bounces around, and really only charges if it wants to tie something up, but it's a far more dynamic style of play than the sit-and-shoot style.

Earlier tau were more like that, outside of broadsides. Shoot and jump suits, mechanised warriors, delayed objective deepstrikes, etc.
Though the whole game was different back then.

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 nurgle86 wrote:
They are so mono dimensional shooting type of army. Obviously there are people like the prometheus78 that didn't understand this when they try to play them but more often there are the majority of tau players that knew the playstyle before they purchased their first fire warrior. Tau players do not engage with their opoonent. They sit in a corner and shoot most of the time not even engaging with the mission because its harder for t'au to go out and cap objectives than it is to sit back and shoot you off the table. In a face to face social game this is really uncomfortable style of game to play against. If I was given the choice for a fun engaging game I would never choose tau.

But looking at the opposite mono dimensional army of the orks, everyone loves playing as and against orks.

obviously this is slightly different in 8th but only very slightly.

I admit though that the tau aesthetic and storyline is awesome but in the game they just aren't fun for opponents the same way playing against a bobby g gunline isnt fun.

Tau players go out and build a melee army and engage with your opponent even though you will lose i guarantee it will be fun

Yeah. It's amazing how much fun the game is overall when people go outside the box with their army. Tau can't do a literal melee army, but one of my favorite armies to play against is my buddy's Viorla sept tau, with lots of Breachers, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits and pretty much nothing with over 18" range. It basically just survives melee and bounces around, and really only charges if it wants to tie something up, but it's a far more dynamic style of play than the sit-and-shoot style.

We've got people in our group that play melee eldar, fluffy emperor's children/slaanesh daemons, jump pack heavy night lords, walker orks...

That would be something interesting to see in action, still i miss the variety that supposedly comes with a Tau army in form of auxilia. Infact i would not even be opposed to Gue'la units for tau, if it meant less sitting in a corner and more central bord interaction. Also , Kroot, why do they suck since, well nearly forever? could we boost them, just so that they might be worth taking?

I honestly don't know. For some reason, certain factions seem to have purposefully bad units that fill an unusual role because "X faction is BAD at that role!"

The way to represent that is by giving them limited unit selection only in a few roles and limited synergy, not by making the individual units purposefully gak at their job. They solved one of the best examples of this in Bullgryns for the guard, which are now not terrible and *surprise surprise* every guard army DIDNT suddenly become full of bullgryns. Ogryns still trash though for some reason.

But you just have to look at Ork shooting units, most eldar melee units and the kroot to see GW still kind of adheres to this philosophy of "make units that fight in the opposite style of the army that we want to encourage, but make them super bad!"

I'm not even talkng about Kroot, though. You can create a very competent army out of Tau where the longest range weapon you have is a marker light, you're using vehicles and suits with Fly to prevent getting locked in melee and crippled, and you're getting highly rewarded for focusing fire at short range so you can actually play the mission and participate in the game. It is a very fun style, it's just not tournament-winning quality.

You just have to find yourself a group where the players are mature enough that they've stopped caring about chasing the meta dragon and they play what they love and have collected for years. Our mechanized iron warriors player with dozens of beautifully painted tanks isn't suddenly going to run out and buy 6 daemon princes because Almighty ITCsus said that's what chaos do. I'm not going to get 3 dissie ravagers and stop playing my full wych cult army because I have delusions about winning Adepticon. Our admech player with a fully painted traffic-cone-orange graia army didn't switch to Mars or stygies because the rules for that forgeworld turned out to be better...because it doesn't matter. everybody wins some and loses some. If you start winning every game in 2 hours, you're just sitting around for two hours doing nothing waiting for everyone else to get done so you can go to the pub.

But looking at the opposite mono dimensional army of the orks, everyone loves playing as and against orks.

When you fight Orks, stuff happens all the time.
It's generally avoidance armies that people don't like to fight (Eldar used to be just like that, too). It's not fun just to take your stuff off the table all the time without proper retaliation.

XuQishi wrote:

But looking at the opposite mono dimensional army of the orks, everyone loves playing as and against orks.

When you fight Orks, stuff happens all the time.
It's generally avoidance armies that people don't like to fight (Eldar used to be just like that, too). It's not fun just to take your stuff off the table all the time without proper retaliation.

^^^^^^this right here.

Everyone is always going to hate avoidance/durability skew in games. This is why you see the biggest hate going towards Tau, Necrons when they're strong, eldar when they're strong, and stuff that can cobble together super-saves (old deathstars).

the_scotsman wrote:
You just have to find yourself a group where the players are mature enough that they've stopped caring about chasing the meta dragon and they play what they love and have collected for years.

This, but louder for the people in back. A LOT LOUDER. Not just louder- Put it in big bold letters with damned cannons going off alongside it, pole dancers, confetti, neon lights, a laser show, and cans of beer being hurled into the crowd while a monster truck jumps over a Motley Crue concert. That's how monumentally crucial this is.

Because 'FLGS arms races' are the worst. Soon you find yourself putting together a model, sighing, because you're not that enthusiastic about it but you 'need' it to counter something that other people are playing, and the army that you actually think is 'cool' is sitting on a shelf or in foam trays somewhere else. And that, my friend, is when you've lost the spirit of the hobby game we play. Now you're not enjoying good beers with friends, you're sucking bitter boxed wine out through a rubber hose on an empty stomach because you MUST GET DRUNK.

Chilled-out, fun, "Let's just see what happens and maybe we can do a narrative thing while we're at it" are by far increasing in popularity and the people playing that way seem to be much more satisfied and enthusiastic about their hobby than the hyper-competitives.

the_scotsman wrote:
If you start winning every game in 2 hours, you're just sitting around for two hours doing nothing waiting for everyone else to get done so you can go to the pub.

Case in point- our most competitive players have 'fun lists' they play at the FLGS, and won't put down tournament lists unless someone asks for a game like that (or they get arrogant and cocky and need to be taken down a peg or two). Why? Because the guys that were just crushing the piss out of everyone with those hardcore netlists? Sat in a chair, with their boxes of models, watching everyone else playing and having fun. Because the guys having fun learned, and they didn't want to play with them. Hell, it's practically a common response here now that when some hyper-competitive WAAC hardcore player starts coming and criticizing someone's army- "Okay, I don't care what you think I need to use or what I should play unless you're buying it, I'm trying to have fun."

InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

 nurgle86 wrote:


But looking at the opposite mono dimensional army of the orks, everyone loves playing as and against ork

Tau players go out and build a melee army and engage with your opponent even though you will lose i guarantee it will be fun

Ew, no, playing as Orks sounds dreadful.

Tau players should play what they want to play, not what you think is d'un.

bibotot wrote:
...No Tau is featured in supplement campaign books like Valedor or Damnos...

...Or, you know, Damocles? Or Taros?

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

That's something I would say is lost on a lot of people playing Tau or playing against Tau with casual players tends to be very bleh and people don't even try to do anything bar just run at them piecemeal approach hace a shooting dual, IG can do it in 8th but it's not exactly a good plan against what is sold by GW as the shooting faction.
Against more experienced players there is a lot of movement and LOS manovering and also being able to play the mission over just straight up kill missions.

If your just playing straight up BRB mission for who killed the most your not playing the same game as even CA, malstorm and i hate to think how many ITC list would do in that format.

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

This sounds incredibly gatekeepy, but its because those people don't play them correctly. IG are your stand and shoot army. Tau are more scoot and shoot. It's been part of their tactics since day 1 with it even mentioned in the first 3rd ed codex (Mont'ka).

This was why I always loved playing my Farsight list- So many people were unprepared for playing a Tau army that got right up in your face as they were far too used to seeing someone sit at the back of the board with their mobile army that they didn't quite know how to handle it, but in a far more refreshing way as they were finally playing against a Tau army the way it was meant to be played, with them getting up into middle range of you for some hefty rapid firing then using Jetpacks to back off. Eventually either you wipe out whatever you're shooting at and/or in the process the game of cat and mouse catches up with you and they have finally caught those slippery bastards.

Loved playing that army, it was a challenge to play but satisfying to use.

Personally?

Aesthetically, I'm not super fond of Tau because I'm a big anime fan and they hit a sort of uncanny valley for me. They immediately catch my eye, but as I really look at them they feel wrong and fake. Realistically, that's a good thing compared to simply ripping off anime, but it drives me away from the faction.

Mechanically, I don't really care for them because it feels like they're kind of stuck in a gear check role. They have a pretty point and click playstyle that feels kind of one sided, one way or the other. It feels like its very hard for them to be competitive without being overpowered .

bibotot wrote:
I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar.

Tau broke the game from their inception by having stronger basic weapons than the Space Marines. In an edition where basic weapons had been toned down so that the bolter performed well against shuriken catapults and had advantages against shootas, the Tau walked in with a strength 5 rifle, previously the domain of heavy weapons which were immobile or mounted on vehicles.
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them. For a human to recover an artifact of unknown provenenace- he risks chaos possession, opening warpgates to hell, simply going mad from some alien influence or revelation. The tau just sit there in their labcoats, smelling like day old sushi, treating it like a rock they're studying.

In other words, they are boring and stale compared to 'ancient alien skeleton robots trying to steal your flesh' or 'elf aliens with crystals and psychic powers trying to avoid being eaten by an elder god' . They belong in battletech, a game of robot fights between conevntional space empires.

 =Angel= wrote:
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Surprise, surprise, the dedicated shooting army with a focus on elite units has a better gun than the "do everything adequately" army. Why should space marines have a better gun and have better melee ability, aside from space marine fanboyism?

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.

So Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, GK, and probably something else I'm forgetting, those factions aren't ok either? Is 40k not 40k anymore when you're playing against those armies?

The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them.

Only because you narrowly define "struggles" in terms of what you do with an ancient artifact you find. Tau have a significant part in the story if you bother to see it.

 =Angel= wrote:

bibotot wrote:
I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar.

Tau broke the game from their inception by having stronger basic weapons than the Space Marines. In an edition where basic weapons had been toned down so that the bolter performed well against shuriken catapults and had advantages against shootas, the Tau walked in with a strength 5 rifle, previously the domain of heavy weapons which were immobile or mounted on vehicles.
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them. For a human to recover an artifact of unknown provenenace- he risks chaos possession, opening warpgates to hell, simply going mad from some alien influence or revelation. The tau just sit there in their labcoats, smelling like day old sushi, treating it like a rock they're studying.

In other words, they are boring and stale compared to 'ancient alien skeleton robots trying to steal your flesh' or 'elf aliens with crystals and psychic powers trying to avoid being eaten by an elder god' . They belong in battletech, a game of robot fights between conevntional space empires.

I personally find the concept of chaos to be rather dumb, and so i like this aspect of the tau. The tau are a break from the atmosphere of "everyone is an ignorant idiot".

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Surprise, surprise, the dedicated shooting army with a focus on elite units has a better gun than the "do everything adequately" army. Why should space marines have a better gun and have better melee ability, aside from space marine fanboyism?

Because this isn't a game of symmetrical gameplay? Space Marines being more than double the cost of a Tau warrior is probably a good reason why to begin with. And I'm the first person to call out SM players b.s. when I see it.

You know, I don't even have a strong feeling on this matter, and it's possible he may even be wrong, but it's your condescending attitude in every post that immediately makes the opposing views to your own feel like they are coming from a much more rational place, and yours from one of an irrepressible need for conflict and to be a contrarian. I should know, I used to do the same when I was younger, and thankfully I grew out of it. When will you?

I have a huge tau army that I don't even play anymore. I do not enjoy it for some reason. I can't exactly put my finger on it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I have a huge tau army that I don't even play anymore. I do not enjoy it for some reason. I can't exactly put my finger on it.

Probably as pointed out the repitiveness of the army with over constant staples?

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

Eh. Tau at least have a whole lot of mobile units. If you want a truly uninteractive gunline army then look no further than pure Cadian IG lists. Most of the army will be sitting still all game to re-roll those 1s to hit, and maybe try to grab an objective or two with 'Movex3!' at the end of the game. That's not something you can do with Tau Commanders, Fire Warriors or stuff like the Y'vahra.

I like Tau... it's just that I like Imperium, Deldar, and Nids more. The only reason I haven't started collecting them is due to time and other projects I should be finishing.


I really don't understand the idea of hating a faction so much that people lash out at players of said faction. That doesn't seem healthy.

 Kelligula wrote:
I like Tau... it's just that I like Imperium, Deldar, and Nids more. The only reason I haven't started collecting them is due to time and other projects I should be finishing.


I really don't understand the idea of hating a faction so much that people lash out at players of said faction. That doesn't seem healthy.

I like Tau as well. I think you got your bottom sentence back to front. For a lot of people, it's the Tau players that make them the race.

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Surprise, surprise, the dedicated shooting army with a focus on elite units has a better gun than the "do everything adequately" army. Why should space marines have a better gun and have better melee ability, aside from space marine fanboyism?

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.

So Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, GK, and probably something else I'm forgetting, those factions aren't ok either? Is 40k not 40k anymore when you're playing against those armies?

The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them.

Only because you narrowly define "struggles" in terms of what you do with an ancient artifact you find. Tau have a significant part in the story if you bother to see it.

Marines are jack of all trades. They aren't meant to be, by design. They were intended to be an elite army, whose line troops are the equal of other armies specialists. The idea of a 'better gun' is silly- the game hovers around toughness and strength 3, with 2 being weaker and 4 being tougher/stronger than normal. Values above this are reflective of monsters or more powerful weapons like plague marines, ogryns, daemon princes, heavy bolters and upwards.

The D6 system considers 4+ an average roll, 3+ an easy roll and 5+ a tough roll. 2+ is as certain as a dice roll gets without rerolls and its reserved for Terminator armour or humans getting hit with anti tank weaponry. Tau rolling 2+ to kill guard in the open (or behind cover with markerlights) is a travesty.

The eldar are the most advanced race and their line soldiers don't get strength 5.


As regards immunity to chaos, Tyranids don't have it, Orks don't have it. Necrons have it, because they are an eldritch horror to rival chaos. Humans don't have it, and the existence of a human faction which is warded against chaos doesn't change that, when they are specifically geared to fight chaos. Tau simply side step the issue with a get out of jail free card.

Tau were intended to be a living, character race like mankind, the Eldar, the Orks to an extent, as opposed to an ancient or unstoppable evil like the crons or nids. They could trade with the other races, had diplomats and leader class and were well placed to be interesting.

The removal of their vulnerability to chaos removes the most pressing concern of a race in the 41st millenium. 40k is an elf a human and an orc fighting in a locked room that is slowly filling with water and we are asked to give a damn about the fishman in the corner who throws rocks occasionally.

I think the nids are a more pressing concern.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

This sounds incredibly gatekeepy, but its because those people don't play them correctly. IG are your stand and shoot army. Tau are more scoot and shoot. It's been part of their tactics since day 1 with it even mentioned in the first 3rd ed codex (Mont'ka).

This was why I always loved playing my Farsight list- So many people were unprepared for playing a Tau army that got right up in your face as they were far too used to seeing someone sit at the back of the board with their mobile army that they didn't quite know how to handle it, but in a far more refreshing way as they were finally playing against a Tau army the way it was meant to be played, with them getting up into middle range of you for some hefty rapid firing then using Jetpacks to back off. Eventually either you wipe out whatever you're shooting at and/or in the process the game of cat and mouse catches up with you and they have finally caught those slippery bastards.

Loved playing that army, it was a challenge to play but satisfying to use.

Awesome. This is exactly how I was aiming to go. Happy to hear that it's feasible.

Reading all this thread, it's really making me want to get a shift on building up Tau. Finishing off some skellies tonight... then straight onto some fire warriors!

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because this isn't a game of symmetrical gameplay? Space Marines being more than double the cost of a Tau warrior is probably a good reason why to begin with. And I'm the first person to call out SM players b.s. when I see it.

Point costs are irrelevant here. The objection was to having a better-than-bolter gun, period, not that Tau troops were too cheap. It's blatant space marine fanboyism and expecting space marines to be the best at everything just because they're space marines.

You know, I don't even have a strong feeling on this matter, and it's possible he may even be wrong, but it's your condescending attitude in every post that immediately makes the opposing views to your own feel like they are coming from a much more rational place, and yours from one of an irrepressible need for conflict and to be a contrarian. I should know, I used to do the same when I was younger, and thankfully I grew out of it. When will you?

I'd give a proper response to this, but I don't want another forum vacation so I'll make it nice and polite: everything in this reflects very poorly upon you, and lowers my already-low opinion of you even further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:
They were intended to be an elite army, whose line troops are the equal of other armies specialists.

Maybe way back in second edition, but that isn't true anymore.

And remember, tactical marines are more than just a bolter. Tau have STR 5 guns, but that's it. Space marines have the ability to take lascannons and melta guns to kill tanks with their troops, can split their squads or keep them together and have MSU or large units depending on which is better for the mission, and don't auto-die in melee. You're obsessively focusing on one part of the stat line and missing the bigger picture.

the game hovers around toughness and strength 3

It really doesn't. Marines being, by far, the most common army means that 4s are average, 3s are below average, and 2s are pathetic conscript hordes that are expected to do nothing.

And yes, Tau guns have STR 5, normally reserved for heavy weapons. That's the whole point, Tau have superior technology and a one-dimensional focus on shooting so their basic rifles are equal to human heavy weapons. The only argument against it is RAR SPACE MARINES ARE BESTEST and insisting that nothing can be better than a bolter. The reality is that bolters just aren't a very good weapon.

As regards immunity to chaos, Tyranids don't have it, Orks don't have it. Necrons have it, because they are an eldritch horror to rival chaos. Humans don't have it, and the existence of a human faction which is warded against chaos doesn't change that, when they are specifically geared to fight chaos. Tau simply side step the issue with a get out of jail free card.

Lolwut? Can you give some examples of chaos Tyranids or Orks? And how does Necrons being a "horror" make their immunity to chaos ok? You're just handwaving away the problem and insisting that the chaos immunity for the factions you like is ok, and somehow magically different from the chaos immunity for the faction you dislike.

The removal of their vulnerability to chaos removes the most pressing concern of a race in the 41st millenium.

Unless of course you're one of the races that has inherent immunity to chaos. In fact, given that the most common race (by an obscenely huge margin) is chaos-immune orks it's actually correct to say that the most pressing concern of a race in 40k is not chaos. On top of that this is a very narrow way of looking at things. Chaos is part of 40k, but it is not the entirety of 40k. There is plenty of interesting conflict to be had even when chaos is not a factor.

40k is an elf a human and an orc fighting in a locked room that is slowly filling with water and we are asked to give a damn about the fishman in the corner who throws rocks occasionally.

You are completely missing the point of the Tau, and TBH the setting in general. In very simple terms 40k is the story of the Imperium and how it dies. The various non-Imperium factions represent its possible ends:

Chaos is the enemy within, impossible to defeat and strengthened by every win the Imperium earns. No matter how successful the Imperium is, even if it magically defeats all other threats, it will still be corrupted and destroyed.

Tyrands and Orks are the numberless horde. No matter how many you kill there are always more of them. No victory can ever be permanent, at best the Imperium can temporarily hold off the advancing horde and trade planets to buy time for the rest of its citizens. Eventually the Imperium will run out of resources and be overwhelmed.

Eldar and Necrons are the ancient evil. Humanity is but a mere child on the galactic scale, and could be crushed at any time by powers they can barely comprehend.

Tau are the rising threat. As the Imperium remains stagnant the Tau continue to grow and advance, and eventually a single gun drone will be able to annihilate a whole chapter of space marines. The Imperium must crush the Tau now to prevent this inevitable fate, but to plan for the future would mean taking resources away from the immediate crisis and dying anyway. And even if they wipe out the Tau the Tau are symbolic of an uncountable number of minor threats, any of which could rise to deliver that fatal blow.

To insist that the Tau have no purpose in the 40k story is to miss a significant part of the setting.

lare2 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

This sounds incredibly gatekeepy, but its because those people don't play them correctly. IG are your stand and shoot army. Tau are more scoot and shoot. It's been part of their tactics since day 1 with it even mentioned in the first 3rd ed codex (Mont'ka).

This was why I always loved playing my Farsight list- So many people were unprepared for playing a Tau army that got right up in your face as they were far too used to seeing someone sit at the back of the board with their mobile army that they didn't quite know how to handle it, but in a far more refreshing way as they were finally playing against a Tau army the way it was meant to be played, with them getting up into middle range of you for some hefty rapid firing then using Jetpacks to back off. Eventually either you wipe out whatever you're shooting at and/or in the process the game of cat and mouse catches up with you and they have finally caught those slippery bastards.

Loved playing that army, it was a challenge to play but satisfying to use.

Awesome. This is exactly how I was aiming to go. Happy to hear that it's feasible.

Reading all this thread, it's really making me want to get a shift on building up Tau. Finishing off some skellies tonight... then straight onto some fire warriors!

Farsight is extremely viable and has had great tournament success. It's definitely a viable way to play the race, it takes a bit more finesse, but definitely don't let anything discourage you from doing it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
You know, I don't even have a strong feeling on this matter, and it's possible he may even be wrong, but it's your condescending attitude in every post that immediately makes the opposing views to your own feel like they are coming from a much more rational place, and yours from one of an irrepressible need for conflict and to be a contrarian. I should know, I used to do the same when I was younger, and thankfully I grew out of it. When will you?

I'd give a proper response to this, but I don't want another forum vacation so I'll make it nice and polite: everything in this reflects very poorly upon you, and lowers my already-low opinion of you even further.

Nothing about it reflects poorly on me. Being able to look back and recognise when I was behaving like a prat, is part of being a getting older, and being a human being. It's certainly even easier to recognise when someone else is doing the same thing. I just think for your own benefit, you might want to change your confrontational tone when discussing... well, everything you ever discuss really. It's just unnecessary and immediately turns people against you. You mention your personal opinion of me, are you at all self-aware concerning the opinion a very large percentage of this forum has concerning you? I've literally heard people... jest about you IRL when talking about dakkadakka as a community, and I live in Australia. I can understand the snark if you are deep in argument with someone who is being stubborn or irrational for pages deep, but you just kick open the door the second you see something you disagree with, shouting that everyone is a fanboy and dripping every post in hostile sarcasm before even trying to convince them of your perspective, it's like dude. If you have the stronger supporting logic you will actually be able to convince people of your perspective if you just framed it a little less hostile. I'm guilty of it myself at times, so I'm telling you right now as someone who knows - it'll be to your benefit (you will also get less of those vacations ).

 Peregrine wrote:
The objection was to having a better-than-bolter gun, period, not that Tau troops were too cheap. It's blatant space marine fanboyism and expecting space marines to be the best at everything just because they're space marines.

You are attempting to mind read. Its not fanboyism, its how a D6 system should work. 'Better than bolter' guns existed in plasmaguns and other special weapons, but they were not line weapons.

Small arms on infantry squads are differentiated by rate of fire and strength as well as range. Of these, strength 3 is the baseline because it wounds humans and eldar on a 4. It wounds Orks /Marines on a 5 because Orks and marines are +1 tough. This was the consistent logic that had eldar weapons be +1 for being advanced and bolt/work weapons be +1 for being especially brutal.

When I say 'it broke the game' I don't mean the game became unplayable. I mean that the internal consistency of being shot by bullets, lasbeams or something heavier (+1) was broken by a basic infantryman wounding baseline infantry on a 2+, as if they had been hit by a basilisk. There's no further to move on the D6 scale, 2+ is the very limit.

Maybe way back in second edition, but that isn't true anymore.

You're obsessively focusing on one part of the stat line and missing the bigger picture.

Explicitly stated in 3rd end, the edition where Tau were released. It isn't true anymore because the game design failed- when marined became the baseline, any claims of marines being elite were lost. Guard are supposed to be a competent force but this would not be felt until the introduction of orders- a patch on what had become a 'horde army'.

And I'm focusing on the most indicative issue with the Tau mechanically, for brevity. I'm ignoring jump shoot jump and markerlights to focus on the tell tale sign that something is wrong- it doesn't work within the system as created.

Tau as designed have cool guns in infantry teams with no special weapons, giving them a unique design philosophy in a game about squads with weapon upgrades. They get their support weapons elsewhere, and that's fine- Orks also rely on other units than the Boy mob to get things done.

Lolwut? Can you give some examples of chaos Tyranids or Orks? And how does Necrons being a "horror" make their immunity to chaos ok? You're just handwaving away the problem and insisting that the chaos immunity for the factions you like is ok, and somehow magically different from the chaos immunity for the faction you dislike.

Genestealer Cults could take chaos marks in past editions. Orks of Khorne. Codex Daemon hunters had artwork of Nurgle Orks and explained how that can occur in detail.

It isn't focussed on in models art or background because it is boring to explore. They are villains dujour- the villains fighting among themselves is not as interesting as free factions fighting those villains. The corruption of a human (or tau!)soul or damnation of an Eldar is an interesting threat. The murder robots or murder dinosaurs becoming marginally more evil is not a page turner.

Yes Tau exist as the rising threat. But as long as they have no spiritual struggles or threats other than physical, they will remain an NPC faction that exists only to threaten the Imperium, rather than a faction with spiritual goals and hopes like the Eldar.

 =Angel= wrote:

Lolwut? Can you give some examples of chaos Tyranids or Orks? And how does Necrons being a "horror" make their immunity to chaos ok? You're just handwaving away the problem and insisting that the chaos immunity for the factions you like is ok, and somehow magically different from the chaos immunity for the faction you dislike.

Genestealer Cults could take chaos marks in past editions. Orks of Khorne. Codex Daemon hunters had artwork of Nurgle Orks and explained how that can occur in detail.

just wanted to contribute image of this



there was an entire ruleset for it

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/09/genestealer-cult-chaos-awesome.html

 =Angel= wrote:
Of these, strength 3 is the baseline because it wounds humans and eldar on a 4.

Except it isn't, because STR 3 guns are rare and only found on cheap cannon fodder units. The most common strength is 4. Your arbitrary definitions about what the "standard" roll is supposed to be are purely your own invention.

When I say 'it broke the game' I don't mean the game became unplayable. I mean that the internal consistency of being shot by bullets, lasbeams or something heavier (+1) was broken by a basic infantryman wounding baseline infantry on a 2+, as if they had been hit by a basilisk. There's no further to move on the D6 scale, 2+ is the very limit.

What's your point? Being hit by a heavy bolter wounded a guardsman on a 2+ just like they'd been hit by that same Basilisk, so by your argument a heavy bolter should not have been STR 5. The more appropriate conclusion is that pulse rifles wounding on a 2+ represents the fact that once you're killed in one shot there's no point in distinguishing from a fatal (or at least incapacitating) bullet wound that is a bit nastier than the average bullet wound and being blown into bloody scraps. From a rules point of view in a single-battle game it makes no difference whether your casualties are temporarily incapacitated or obliterated, dead is dead.

Explicitly stated in 3rd end, the edition where Tau were released. It isn't true anymore because the game design failed- when marined became the baseline, any claims of marines being elite were lost. Guard are supposed to be a competent force but this would not be felt until the introduction of orders- a patch on what had become a 'horde army'.

Well, ok, I'm not really seeing the relevance of 3rd edition to the question of why Tau aren't popular today. Most current players weren't playing back then, so couldn't have been influenced by 3rd edition design rules that haven't been true for decades.

Tau as designed have cool guns in infantry teams with no special weapons, giving them a unique design philosophy in a game about squads with weapon upgrades. They get their support weapons elsewhere, and that's fine- Orks also rely on other units than the Boy mob to get things done.

You're so close to getting it. Tau have great basic rifles but no special weapons. If you take away the superior basic guns and keep the absence of special weapons then you end up with a unit in a shooting-focused army that is just plain bad at shooting.

Genestealer Cults could take chaos marks in past editions. Orks of Khorne. Codex Daemon hunters had artwork of Nurgle Orks and explained how that can occur in detail.

Do you have any examples from the modern game that aren't relics of decades-old fluff that no longer exists?

Yes Tau exist as the rising threat. But as long as they have no spiritual struggles or threats other than physical, they will remain an NPC faction that exists only to threaten the Imperium, rather than a faction with spiritual goals and hopes like the Eldar.

Your obsessive focus on "spiritual threats" is missing the point entirely. Orks don't have spiritual threats or goals either, Tyranids don't even have a concept of spirituality, etc. And yet somehow space marines vs. orks is still a traditional and popular fight.

As for the Tau not having spiritual goals, again, that's just your obsessively narrow definition. Tau have goals and hopes even if they don't involve space-Jesus.


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 SHUPPET wrote:
there was an entire ruleset for it

There was also a half-eldar space marine and various other questionable ideas that no longer exist in the current fluff.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
there was an entire ruleset for it

There was also a half-eldar space marine and various other questionable ideas that no longer exist in the current fluff.

I'm not saying he's right about it being the case currently. I was just posting more information for anyone curious about what he refers to

I have elaborated why Tau were contentious from inception, in 3rd ed, mechanically and in lore.

You have noted that Marines are now mechanically the standard and explained why you think Tau guns should be superior to the standard. You also note that human guardsmen are fodder units for having st3 guns.

You are conceding every point I have made regarding how pushing rifles to S5 causes elite stats (4) to be less valuable relatively. Most recently, guardians were pushed to BS4 because of this need to meet the 'standard'.

The game is worse, not better for this kind of stat creep, to the point that there are honest to goodness custodians and primarchs in the game. Nu marines have an extra wound, rendering the pulse rifle half as effective and bolt rifles that approach the pulse rifle in lethality.

Lore wise, again, there is a difference between anti-chaos and ignoring chaos entirely, to play a different game. Tau aren't part of the universe proper, in the same way that an D&D player who refuses to interact with magic in any form isn't really playing with his fellows.

Going back to the original question, I absolutely loathe the Tau aesthetic.

Outside of their suits, they just seem like really boring, generic aliens.

As for their actual suits, the best way I can describe them is that they look like transformers toys that don't actually transform. You know how transformers toys often looked weird, because they needed to have parts that folded in/out or vehicle-parts that they couldn't quite hide? That's the vibe I get from tau suits.

I mean, look at the battlesuit in the Coalition Command and tell me it doesn't look like it's supposed to transform into some sort of weird jetfighter:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Tau-Empire-Coalition-Command


Anyway, I know that this is entirely subjective, but this sort of aesthetic just doesn't appeal to me. Probably doesn't help that I've never been a fan of mecha-type stuff.


In terms of gameplay, they can definitely be rather one-dimensional. However, I think their least fun thing was Jump-Shoot-Jump. Shooting stuff and then jumping behind LoS-blocking terrain to prevent most/all return fire did not make for a fun game. Thankfully, this has largely been removed in 8th, but I imagine many people still associate Tau with this.


Another possibility as to why people dislike Tau is that a young, naive race idolising Communism might hit a little too close to home for some.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Surprise, surprise, the dedicated shooting army with a focus on elite units has a better gun than the "do everything adequately" army. Why should space marines have a better gun and have better melee ability, aside from space marine fanboyism?

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.

So Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, GK, and probably something else I'm forgetting, those factions aren't ok either? Is 40k not 40k anymore when you're playing against those armies?

The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them.

Only because you narrowly define "struggles" in terms of what you do with an ancient artifact you find. Tau have a significant part in the story if you bother to see it.

Marines are jack of all trades. They aren't meant to be, by design. They were intended to be an elite army, whose line troops are the equal of other armies specialists. The idea of a 'better gun' is silly- the game hovers around toughness and strength 3, with 2 being weaker and 4 being tougher/stronger than normal. Values above this are reflective of monsters or more powerful weapons like plague marines, ogryns, daemon princes, heavy bolters and upwards.

The D6 system considers 4+ an average roll, 3+ an easy roll and 5+ a tough roll. 2+ is as certain as a dice roll gets without rerolls and its reserved for Terminator armour or humans getting hit with anti tank weaponry. Tau rolling 2+ to kill guard in the open (or behind cover with markerlights) is a travesty.

The eldar are the most advanced race and their line soldiers don't get strength 5.


As regards immunity to chaos, Tyranids don't have it, Orks don't have it. Necrons have it, because they are an eldritch horror to rival chaos. Humans don't have it, and the existence of a human faction which is warded against chaos doesn't change that, when they are specifically geared to fight chaos. Tau simply side step the issue with a get out of jail free card.

Tau were intended to be a living, character race like mankind, the Eldar, the Orks to an extent, as opposed to an ancient or unstoppable evil like the crons or nids. They could trade with the other races, had diplomats and leader class and were well placed to be interesting.

The removal of their vulnerability to chaos removes the most pressing concern of a race in the 41st millenium. 40k is an elf a human and an orc fighting in a locked room that is slowly filling with water and we are asked to give a damn about the fishman in the corner who throws rocks occasionally.

Have you any examples of a significant number of tyranid creatures (not a few random weapon-bioforms cut off from the hive fleet) getting corrupted by Chaos? They project the shadow in the warp.

Also, there are a number of stories of orks trapped on daemon worlds not becoming corrupted by Chaos. This is because Gork and Mork are known to be physically superior to any single chaos god.

Let's also not forget: Harlequins (protected by Cegorach), Dark Eldar/craftworld eldar (just get consumed by slaanesh instantly if they fall to chaos), Grey Knights - do you hate all these factions?

I was 15 when Tau were released and I hated them instantly. No one in my group liked them either thankfully so we never really had to acknowledge their existence. Their fluff and initial rules and design just seemed antithetical to what we liked about 40k.

My friends played marines and chaos; power armour is cool and playing an army of the elite guys fighting for humanity’s survival was interesting. I, and others, played Eldar because they had the most advanced technology and a bitter backstory. A friend liked Tyranids because they are a massive threat that no one understands that will eventually take over the galaxy.

Tau takes a big dump on this. All of a sudden our GW Overlords delivers a new race with grav tanks, better weaponry than Eldar/Marines, guns of multiple flavours to make everyone jealous, but a book and new kits, and, worst of all, a “good guy” to potentially inherit the universe (there wasn’t much dark stuff insinuated about the tau back then from what I can remember).

“They’re weak, they can’t handle melee” well most of my eldar couldn’t exactly handle melee back then either and I had a ton of guardian defenders lol.

We stopped playing in 4th and apparently Tau have only gotten more deserving of hate in the years since.

Bremon wrote:
I was 15 when Tau were released and I hated them instantly. No one in my group liked them either thankfully so we never really had to acknowledge their existence. Their fluff and initial rules and design just seemed antithetical to what we liked about 40k.

My friends played marines and chaos; power armour is cool and playing an army of the elite guys fighting for humanity’s survival was interesting. I, and others, played Eldar because they had the most advanced technology and a bitter backstory. A friend liked Tyranids because they are a massive threat that no one understands that will eventually take over the galaxy.

Tau takes a big dump on this. All of a sudden our GW Overlords delivers a new race with grav tanks, better weaponry than Eldar/Marines, guns of multiple flavours to make everyone jealous, but a book and new kits, and, worst of all, a “good guy” to potentially inherit the universe (there wasn’t much dark stuff insinuated about the tau back then from what I can remember).

“They’re weak, they can’t handle melee” well most of my eldar couldn’t exactly handle melee back then either and I had a ton of guardian defenders lol.

We stopped playing in 4th and apparently Tau have only gotten more deserving of hate in the years since.

Show us on the space marine where the bad fire warrior touched you.

The hatred towards Tau for not being grimdark edgelords has always been kind of stupid. You know the sonic weapons were originally guitars with bolters built in and the genestealer cults used to drive around in limos right? Yes the Tau aesthetic looks out of place compared to the other races, that's intentional. They're a younger race that evolved without much interference from the other races, it'd be much weirder if hammerheads looked like they were based on a rhino. Not liking the look is perfectly fine but saying the look is ruining 40k is insane.

Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

 IronBrand wrote:
Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

Not a whole lot of fun going to a PUG and chasing bouncy-robots around while mobs of dudes sit at the back end of the field and just shoot everything to pieces.

Don't get me wrong, it's also not fun dealing with an Imperial Knight in a PUG unless you're aware of it, but that's what it is.

I've never seen a friendly, casual, fun private group that uses Tau.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

Not a whole lot of fun going to a PUG and chasing bouncy-robots around while mobs of dudes sit at the back end of the field and just shoot everything to pieces.

Don't get me wrong, it's also not fun dealing with an Imperial Knight in a PUG unless you're aware of it, but that's what it is.

I've never seen a friendly, casual, fun private group that uses Tau.

Yeah that's basically the reason why I haven't got any Tau stuff myself. I'd want a mechanised army in battlesuits and I'm not big on firewarriors. If I wanted something along the lines of firewarrior spam I'd go dark eldar and spam warriors in raiders instead. There are a couple players locally that play tau. I've only played one of them so far and it was basically just a blob of firewarriors. I still enjoyed our games because the opponent was a nice guy and we were just having chill games while chatting. But it is the sort of thing that can get old fast when all the games are so similar. Especially if the game is the only entertainment and there's no real conversation or anything.

 IronBrand wrote:

Bremon wrote:
I was 15 when Tau were released and I hated them instantly. No one in my group liked them either thankfully so we never really had to acknowledge their existence. Their fluff and initial rules and design just seemed antithetical to what we liked about 40k.

My friends played marines and chaos; power armour is cool and playing an army of the elite guys fighting for humanity’s survival was interesting. I, and others, played Eldar because they had the most advanced technology and a bitter backstory. A friend liked Tyranids because they are a massive threat that no one understands that will eventually take over the galaxy.

Tau takes a big dump on this. All of a sudden our GW Overlords delivers a new race with grav tanks, better weaponry than Eldar/Marines, guns of multiple flavours to make everyone jealous, but a book and new kits, and, worst of all, a “good guy” to potentially inherit the universe (there wasn’t much dark stuff insinuated about the tau back then from what I can remember).

“They’re weak, they can’t handle melee” well most of my eldar couldn’t exactly handle melee back then either and I had a ton of guardian defenders lol.

We stopped playing in 4th and apparently Tau have only gotten more deserving of hate in the years since.

Show us on the space marine where the bad fire warrior touched you.

The hatred towards Tau for not being grimdark edgelords has always been kind of stupid. You know the sonic weapons were originally guitars with bolters built in and the genestealer cults used to drive around in limos right? Yes the Tau aesthetic looks out of place compared to the other races, that's intentional. They're a younger race that evolved without much interference from the other races, it'd be much weirder if hammerheads looked like they were based on a rhino. Not liking the look is perfectly fine but saying the look is ruining 40k is insane.

Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

How should I respond? The Fire Warrior touched my penis? I’m well aware that my opinion comes from the world view of a 15 year old from 2003. If you’d like to get off your high horse, and drop the condescension and snark, we could discuss more. My opinion is my opinion regardless of what you feel is “valid” or not. 3rd edition when Tau were introduced were already leaving a lot of the cartooniness of 2nd behind, Tau reintroduced it, and GW continued down a road that lead to, in my opinion (yes, opinion, valid or otherwise) that 40k has too many codexes and too many playable factions. My opinion on Tau isn’t as harsh today but I’d still lean towards saying they’re less than ideal and I’m clearly not alone in that line of thinking.

Bremon wrote:
How should I respond? The Fire Warrior touched my penis? I’m well aware that my opinion comes from the world view of a 15 year old from 2003. If you’d like to get off your high horse, and drop the condescension and snark, we could discuss more. My opinion is my opinion regardless of what you feel is “valid” or not. 3rd edition when Tau were introduced were already leaving a lot of the cartooniness of 2nd behind, Tau reintroduced it, and GW continued down a road that lead to, in my opinion (yes, opinion, valid or otherwise) that 40k has too many codexes and too many playable factions. My opinion on Tau isn’t as harsh today but I’d still lean towards saying they’re less than ideal and I’m clearly not alone in that line of thinking.

I'm coming more from a place of bemusement than condescension. I'm always confused by people saying things aren't grimdark enough when you look where the game came from. Especially so when people complain the space wolves are too cartoony for the setting now and that the tau aren't evil enough.

 IronBrand wrote:

Bremon wrote:
How should I respond? The Fire Warrior touched my penis? I’m well aware that my opinion comes from the world view of a 15 year old from 2003. If you’d like to get off your high horse, and drop the condescension and snark, we could discuss more. My opinion is my opinion regardless of what you feel is “valid” or not. 3rd edition when Tau were introduced were already leaving a lot of the cartooniness of 2nd behind, Tau reintroduced it, and GW continued down a road that lead to, in my opinion (yes, opinion, valid or otherwise) that 40k has too many codexes and too many playable factions. My opinion on Tau isn’t as harsh today but I’d still lean towards saying they’re less than ideal and I’m clearly not alone in that line of thinking.

I'm coming more from a place of bemusement than condescension. I'm always confused by people saying things aren't grimdark enough when you look where the game came from. Especially so when people complain the space wolves are too cartoony for the setting now and that the tau aren't evil enough.

Or that Tau are too anime despite the Imperium having angelic pretty boy swordsmen, magical girls supported by more girls in combat heels/corsets, giant mechs that have to "bond" with their pilot, magical girl from another land coming to save the main guy, drunken master brawlers, and literal catgirls. They even have a badguy who grows more powerful with every plot and is always defeated, but somehow gets away and had another secret true plan all along. It is a bit silly that it even matters in the first place...

 DominayTrix wrote:
Or that Tau are too anime despite the Imperium having angelic pretty boy swordsmen, magical girls supported by more girls in combat heels/corsets, giant mechs that have to "bond" with their pilot, magical girl from another land coming to save the main guy, drunken master brawlers, and literal catgirls. They even have a badguy who grows more powerful with every plot and is always defeated, but somehow gets away and had another secret true plan all along. It is a bit silly that it even matters in the first place...

It's not like the emperor wanted the ruinous power's attention or anything b-baka!

Actually Tau can fall to chaos, there was that one diplomat possesed by a daemon of tzeentch for exemple.

It is just not as feasible and interesting for daemons to possess Tau since they are a young race and have not yet fully developped their psychic abilities.

I like T'au a lot. When people complain that they just 'sit in a corner and shoot', 'never move' etc, they aren't complaining about the faction, they are complaining about the people they are playing with.

I run a whole range of different lists, Breachers in Devilfish, Triple flamer XV8's jumping about. Coldstar's with their insane movement speed. Kroot and their hounds for combat.

REMOVED, RULE #1 - BrookM

BrianDavion wrote:
there are also the annoying Tau fanboys, you guys know the ones, the ones who GENUINELY belive that the Tau are "good" and insist there is no "sinister subtext" and insist that the Tau could take on the IoM in a straight up fight because "their tech is so much better"
and yeah I've had people try to claim that.

wow, that's pretty bad. The Tau in [CURRENT_YEAR] are ants compared to the Imperium at large. The Tau probably have the greatest potential to dominate the galaxy long term, like another 10k years. If the nids don't eat everyone and the Imperium doesn't recover from it's stagnation.


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 =Angel= wrote:

The eldar are the most advanced race and their line soldiers don't get strength 5.

The eldar are the most advanced race in a lot of areas but not in every area. Their anti grav tech is better than everyone else's for sure. Tau are experts at weapons technology. That's what they do best. The Eldar have the webway, very good anti grav tech, and wraithbone. That's really about it, that's what they're good at. Tau's navigation technology is way behind them, but their weapons systems are far better and their defensive tech is often better.

If you compare their weapons in similar riles it's not just their regular small arms that are better than Eldar

Pulse Carbines are better than Shuriken catapults
Burst Cannons and SMS are arguably better than Shuriken Cannons
Railguns are better than Brightlances
Tau Plasma rifles are smaller and easier to use than Eldar ones(rapid fire instead of heavy d3)
Rail rifles and Sniper Drones are better than ranger rifles

Eldar do have handheld melta weapons, Tau only have suit mounted fusions so there's that.

Then you can consider a lot of guns that Eldar don't really have something analogous too.
HYMPs and Ion Rifle/CIBs for medium strength fire.
The host of big tau guns on suits Ghostkeel and larger
Pulse rifles, a long range infantry rifle
Pulse blasters, a short range infantry gun that's also better than a shuriken catapult.

Also consider other technology. Like Drones. Eldar are a dying race where every death is a blow to them, and yet they don't have even simple AI controlled drones like the Tau use everywhere. Wouldn't something like that be a huge priority for a dwindling race?

I think it's safe to say that the Eldar as they exist in 40k are not the most technologically advanced race. They used to be, but the Imperium also used to be incredibly advanced in science but aren't anymore. They developed true sentient AIs, robust STCs, and all kinds of amazing tech but now don't even know how their guns work.

I've held. that, since the Tau belong in the same category as all those other smaller empires and nations that get name dropped every once in while - Draxian Hegemony, Ulumeathic League, Worldweave of the Noisome Reek, Church of Dracolith and so on -that they are, at least in part, a nod by GW for the players - a reminder that there's a larger galaxy outside of the big factions, and that those thousands of factions can be used in games too.

At least I felt that way back when they were released when it seemed that we might get models for various races - mercs and what not - since back then GeeDubs was more open to releasing more homebrewy Chapter Approved rules in WDs, like rules for using animals and armylists for feral orks and kroot mercs.

Oh, those old Chapter Approved books were fethin' cool and inspirational.

In short... They Don't fit the setting

In Longeate simplified paragraph... The Tau often get away with no consequences what they do is so abysmally small that they have no long term effects on the galaxy. Every war and battle with them is extremely short (in terms of the universe). They never really face consequences or face a suitable threat that could destroy them entirely. Always being seen as 'non-proper' threat, which is why they are often ignore by the major races. They don't really seem to have anything interesting about them other than, they have mech suits. But their aesthetical details are out of place, they don't really 'fit' the setting. While most of their books written about them are often poorly written or make everyone dumber than bricks to make the tau seem smart. The Tau currently use subpar tactics and manage to pull the win out of thin air. Because they are not liked because of the clear bias whenever someone writes them. Read any of the tau books and you'll find most of them are poorly written (especially if its from their point of view). The best books about them are from the imperium side of view (War of Secrets etc). Cause the tau really don't have anything in depth about them compelling all they have is 'the greater good' and thats about it.

cmspano wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:

The eldar are the most advanced race and their line soldiers don't get strength 5.

The eldar are the most advanced race in a lot of areas but not in every area. Their anti grav tech is better than everyone else's for sure. Tau are experts at weapons technology. That's what they do best. The Eldar have the webway, very good anti grav tech, and wraithbone. That's really about it, that's what they're good at. Tau's navigation technology is way behind them, but their weapons systems are far better and their defensive tech is often better.

If you compare their weapons in similar riles it's not just their regular small arms that are better than Eldar

Pulse Carbines are better than Shuriken catapults
Burst Cannons and SMS are arguably better than Shuriken Cannons
Railguns are better than Brightlances
Tau Plasma rifles are smaller and easier to use than Eldar ones(rapid fire instead of heavy d3)
Rail rifles and Sniper Drones are better than ranger rifles

Eldar do have handheld melta weapons, Tau only have suit mounted fusions so there's that.

Then you can consider a lot of guns that Eldar don't really have something analogous too.
HYMPs and Ion Rifle/CIBs for medium strength fire.
The host of big tau guns on suits Ghostkeel and larger
Pulse rifles, a long range infantry rifle
Pulse blasters, a short range infantry gun that's also better than a shuriken catapult.

Also consider other technology. Like Drones. Eldar are a dying race where every death is a blow to them, and yet they don't have even simple AI controlled drones like the Tau use everywhere. Wouldn't something like that be a huge priority for a dwindling race?

I think it's safe to say that the Eldar as they exist in 40k are not the most technologically advanced race. They used to be, but the Imperium also used to be incredibly advanced in science but aren't anymore. They developed true sentient AIs, robust STCs, and all kinds of amazing tech but now don't even know how their guns work.

Advanced =/= powerful. A musket is more powerful than a 3d printed 1 shot derringer, despite the latter being more advanced.
Necron weapons pull you apart in a stream of molecules, but an ork solid fuel rokkit is stronger. Eldar weapons use black holes to accelerate a stream of monomolecular blades at you. Tau weapons are particle accelerators. Both are outclassed by big shootas.

The tau plasma rifle is actually worse than the Imperial equivalent- it is not man portable. You could argue this represents a martial philosophy (suits get the good stuff) rather than a limitation of the tech, but you could argue the same for starcannons (as eldar have plasma grenades)

Then you can consider a lot of guns that Eldar don't really have something analogous too.
HYMPs and Ion Rifle/CIBs for medium strength fire.
The host of big tau guns on suits Ghostkeel and larger
Pulse rifles, a long range infantry rifle
Pulse blasters, a short range infantry gun that's also better than a shuriken catapult.

Also consider other technology. Like Drones. Eldar are a dying race where every death is a blow to them, and yet they don't have even simple AI controlled drones like the Tau use everywhere. Wouldn't something like that be a huge priority for a dwindling race?

I think it's safe to say that the Eldar as they exist in 40k are not the most technologically advanced race. They used to be, but the Imperium also used to be incredibly advanced in science but aren't anymore. They developed true sentient AIs, robust STCs, and all kinds of amazing tech but now don't even know how their guns work.

The admech don't have anything analogous to some Tau options right now- the Tau range has been explored more. The Tau have no counter to warlord titans- that doesn't mean they won't in time- the current range of knight class dakkamechs seems to be heading that way. When the Eldar race is explored, its typically through aspect shrines (fw's ghosts with the lasers) factional development (pirates, ynnarri) or variants on existing vehicles rather than new stompy robots.

This is because there is little in Tau infantry or characters to explore- shooty robots are the extent of their appeal.

As per AI- there are in universe reasons why the Eldar (fall) and Imperium (AI rebellion, chaos scrapcode) forbid AI use.

 Asherian Command wrote:
In short... They Don't fit the setting

The setting is huge and there's plenty of room for most anything. I'll agree that the Tau aren't major players in the galaxy, but not every faction NEEDS to be. The Tau fill a much needed viewpoint in the setting - the young up and coming race in a big bad galaxy full of big bad things they're largely ignorant about. We get to see them lose their wide-eyed innocence. We didn't get to see that with any of the other races - they've all been at war forever, it's all old hat for them. The Tau are like the protagonists in a horror movie franchise - we, the audience, know what they're up for, but the Tau really have no idea. It's like watching humanity spread into the galaxy, only more blue and noseless.

Does every Tau player except me play gunline or something? My army is usually everything mobile.

 John Prins wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
In short... They Don't fit the setting

The setting is huge and there's plenty of room for most anything. I'll agree that the Tau aren't major players in the galaxy, but not every faction NEEDS to be. The Tau fill a much needed viewpoint in the setting - the young up and coming race in a big bad galaxy full of big bad things they're largely ignorant about. We get to see them lose their wide-eyed innocence. We didn't get to see that with any of the other races - they've all been at war forever, it's all old hat for them. The Tau are like the protagonists in a horror movie franchise - we, the audience, know what they're up for, but the Tau really have no idea. It's like watching humanity spread into the galaxy, only more blue and noseless.

If they have a codex it is implied they are. Space Marine Chapters and various other imperial factions are because they are a massive faction.

Tau are only a very small part of that universe they've never faced the black legion, or a massive tyranid invasion. They barely seem relevant as it is currently. Their innocence has not been lost yet, the few that have lost their innocence are considered insane.

I dislike how tau have progressed especially with bigger mecha suits and even bigger suits.

So far their equipment is more powerful than the most advanced weaponry in most factions. While also being completely untouched by chaos or the plague wars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
Does every Tau player except me play gunline or something? My army is usually everything mobile.

No. thats the most popular and best list is the mobile forces.

Many people don't like tau because they can do everything but melee well.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Does every Tau player except me play gunline or something? My army is usually everything mobile.

No. thats the most popular and best list is the mobile forces.

Many people don't like tau because they can do everything but melee well.

I don't think so. How's that Tau psychic phase going?

 Asherian Command wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
In short... They Don't fit the setting

The setting is huge and there's plenty of room for most anything. I'll agree that the Tau aren't major players in the galaxy, but not every faction NEEDS to be. The Tau fill a much needed viewpoint in the setting - the young up and coming race in a big bad galaxy full of big bad things they're largely ignorant about. We get to see them lose their wide-eyed innocence. We didn't get to see that with any of the other races - they've all been at war forever, it's all old hat for them. The Tau are like the protagonists in a horror movie franchise - we, the audience, know what they're up for, but the Tau really have no idea. It's like watching humanity spread into the galaxy, only more blue and noseless.

If they have a codex it is implied they are. Space Marine Chapters and various other imperial factions are because they are a massive faction.

Tau are only a very small part of that universe they've never faced the black legion, or a massive tyranid invasion. They barely seem relevant as it is currently. Their innocence has not been lost yet, the few that have lost their innocence are considered insane.

I dislike how tau have progressed especially with bigger mecha suits and even bigger suits.

So far their equipment is more powerful than the most advanced weaponry in most factions. While also being completely untouched by chaos or the plague wars.

Yeah, codices should be saved for the larger armies, like harlequins.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
In short... They Don't fit the setting

The setting is huge and there's plenty of room for most anything. I'll agree that the Tau aren't major players in the galaxy, but not every faction NEEDS to be. The Tau fill a much needed viewpoint in the setting - the young up and coming race in a big bad galaxy full of big bad things they're largely ignorant about. We get to see them lose their wide-eyed innocence. We didn't get to see that with any of the other races - they've all been at war forever, it's all old hat for them. The Tau are like the protagonists in a horror movie franchise - we, the audience, know what they're up for, but the Tau really have no idea. It's like watching humanity spread into the galaxy, only more blue and noseless.

If they have a codex it is implied they are. Space Marine Chapters and various other imperial factions are because they are a massive faction.

Tau are only a very small part of that universe they've never faced the black legion, or a massive tyranid invasion. They barely seem relevant as it is currently. Their innocence has not been lost yet, the few that have lost their innocence are considered insane.

I dislike how tau have progressed especially with bigger mecha suits and even bigger suits.

So far their equipment is more powerful than the most advanced weaponry in most factions. While also being completely untouched by chaos or the plague wars.

Yeah, codices should be saved for the larger armies, like harlequins.

Harlequens are a major faction hahaha.

They've been hinted at being larger of a force for decades... you know build up? Tau sorta came out of nowhere. (just like the primaris) And their rushed development has caused lots of issues already in the lore.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
In short... They Don't fit the setting

The setting is huge and there's plenty of room for most anything. I'll agree that the Tau aren't major players in the galaxy, but not every faction NEEDS to be. The Tau fill a much needed viewpoint in the setting - the young up and coming race in a big bad galaxy full of big bad things they're largely ignorant about. We get to see them lose their wide-eyed innocence. We didn't get to see that with any of the other races - they've all been at war forever, it's all old hat for them. The Tau are like the protagonists in a horror movie franchise - we, the audience, know what they're up for, but the Tau really have no idea. It's like watching humanity spread into the galaxy, only more blue and noseless.

If they have a codex it is implied they are. Space Marine Chapters and various other imperial factions are because they are a massive faction.

Tau are only a very small part of that universe they've never faced the black legion, or a massive tyranid invasion. They barely seem relevant as it is currently. Their innocence has not been lost yet, the few that have lost their innocence are considered insane.

I dislike how tau have progressed especially with bigger mecha suits and even bigger suits.

So far their equipment is more powerful than the most advanced weaponry in most factions. While also being completely untouched by chaos or the plague wars.

Yeah, codices should be saved for the larger armies, like harlequins.

you picked a really poor example with this one. You could have picked like, Legion of the Damned or something, instead you went with the race that tries to dip it's handiwork into everything

 SHUPPET wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
Yeah, codices should be saved for the larger armies, like harlequins.

you picked a really poor example with this one. You could have picked like, Legion of the Damned or something, instead you went with the race that tries to dip it's handiwork into everything

I picked the one that actually has a codex even though it only has 8 units and a fortification.

The 3rd ed Necron codex only had 13 different units, 14 if you count the Destroyer Lord, but it was an upgrade.

Personally speaking, ive never enjoyed a game against tau. Aside from the clear ridiculous levels of shootiness that has blasted my off the table before i could even make it halfway across the table in the past, ive not liked their looks.

Too clean and sleek and just ugly looking to me but thats personal taste.

My experiences against them have always left me sour to the point that i wont play againt Tau unless there is absolutely no other option for me whatsoever. I have not yet however played them in 8th, so maybe experiences have cha ged with it, but im hesitant to risk wasting my time on a game i probably wont enjoy.

Also in my area its always been battle suits battle suits battle suits and it just gets boring to see.
I would be more inclined to try a game against someone who fielded tau more like a dark mirror federation. Where their army has warriors and kroots and vespid and ethereals. Thatd be great to see on the table, exotic aliens banded together for the sinister self serving good join us or die side of things. But nope, why have that when you can BATTEL SOOTZ!

 IronBrand wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
Yeah, codices should be saved for the larger armies, like harlequins.

you picked a really poor example with this one. You could have picked like, Legion of the Damned or something, instead you went with the race that tries to dip it's handiwork into everything

I picked the one that actually has a codex even though it only has 8 units and a fortification.

You picked one that has it's hands in everything, as your choice in example of a faction that isn't a major player in the lore. You done goofed.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
I picked the one that actually has a codex even though it only has 8 units and a fortification.

You picked one that has it's hands in everything, as your choice in example of a faction that isn't a major player in the lore. You done goofed.

It's a small subfaction of a dying race. It's not really a major player anymore. Especially if you're just talking about the harlequins by themselves and not the Eldar as a whole.

50% of Tau hate is simply because it has become the normal thing to do to be accepted within a group.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Personally speaking, ive never enjoyed a game against tau. Aside from the clear ridiculous levels of shootiness that has blasted my off the table before i could even make it halfway across the table in the past, ive not liked their looks.

My experiences against them have always left me sour to the point that i wont play againt Tau unless there is absolutely no other option for me whatsoever. I have not yet however played them in 8th, so maybe experiences have cha ged with it, but im hesitant to risk wasting my time on a game i probably wont enjoy.

You should play against them in 8th, they're not a top tier army at all. They were really good while commander spam was a thing but after GW killed it they dropped a lot in power. They're not winning any tournaments AFAIK. Eldar still outclass them with their ridiculous cheese. Tau don't have a good answer for knights outside of commanders either.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Also in my area its always been battle suits battle suits battle suits and it just gets boring to see.
I would be more inclined to try a game against someone who fielded tau more like a dark mirror federation. Where their army has warriors and kroots and vespid and ethereals. Thatd be great to see on the table, exotic aliens banded together for the sinister self serving good join us or die side of things. But nope, why have that when you can BATTEL SOOTZ!

You need new people to play against. Tau suits aren't very good. Commanders are great, Broadsides aren't terrible, Riptides are supposed to be pretty decent but nothing like in 7th. Stealth suits have a use, they're pretty good at it. Crisis suits are garbage, like really bad. Ghostkeels are ok, good enough for a casual game, not good enough for competitive play.

Kroot are absolute garbage in 8th which is sad, but Fire Warriors are very good. Most of the Sept traits are good for FWs and they work both in a gun line or in an aggressive style of play. I think 3 Tau battalions with 90 fire warriors could be really strong. You would still have about 1000 points left for suits and heavy stuff.

You're going to always have suits in tau though because that's the only thing that makes them special. It's also the only way to get anti vehicle firepower that's remotely acceptable. Hammerheads are never going to bring down a knight army. 3 Commanders with 4 fusion blasters might.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
In short... They Don't fit the setting

The setting is huge and there's plenty of room for most anything. I'll agree that the Tau aren't major players in the galaxy, but not every faction NEEDS to be.

If they have a codex it is implied they are.

Codexes only imply GW thinks people will buy a force as an army. If it was actual significance, humanity would have:

Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Imperial Fleet
Codex: Ecclesiarchy
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus
and maaaaaybe Codex: Ultramar (they have 500 worlds, after all)

Reemule wrote:
I don't like tau cause:

Ugly models.
Seems fishy.
Anime is a tired genre.
Kroot are dumb.
Ascetically they are not pleasing.
The greater good?
Drone Markerlights what?
Have they ever been good?

I'm sorry, I don't really get, well, pretty much any of these points. I mean, Ugly Models is the same as they're not aesthetically pleasing, sure, that's fine. You don't like anime, which I guess I kind of get, but not that much. Other than that, I've never got the anime vibe. However, you don't really explain why Kroot are dumb, and the remaining three are questions. Saying something about the Tau with a question mark isn't really a reason.

Leman Russ Annihilator?

See, it's not really anything. I'm not sure what your point is, it just seems to kind of be muddled and confused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
One, their playstyle isn't very dynamic. Granted, it's more dynamic than a Gorillaman Gunline since Tau have interesting things like infiltrators and other little tricks, but it's by and large a gunline.

Two, their fluff and design has always struck me as kind of boring. I mean, what exactly are they from a fluff standpoint? Imperials are the "good" guys who resort to awful things just to keep going, Chaos is the corrupting force behind most of the horrible stuff in the universe, necrons are instigators of the old war that began all this crap and are an ancient threat, Eldar and Dark Eldar are the hypocritical fops who think they're all high-and-mighty despite the fact that they've screwed over the universe the most, orks are the genocidal, war-mongering, irredeemable race that somehow serves as this setting's comedic relief, and Tyrannids are the absolutely terrifying beings from another galaxy that are probably the biggest threat out there. The Tau though? They're just some random upstart race that has decent technology.

That, and their designs are utterly boring. They're basically skinny, blue humans piloting Mobile Suit Gundams. None of their robots even seem that menacing compared to the Imperium or especially the orks.

Tau seem to be the ones who are the "good" guys who resort to awful things to keep going, not the Imperium, who is more of an example of backwards superstition leading to evil things, not evil things done for the greater good, pun absolutely intended. In addition to this, if anything they have some of the most uniqueness as everyone else. They're the only faction that actually makes permanent allies. They're the only faction that seems to be advancing their technology level. They're the only faction that is hard sci-fi as opposed to magic, be it Warp or C'tan based. They're pretty much the core faction. They're possibly the most unique of all factions, as opposed to the rest of them, who could all be described the same way you described the Orks, barring the humor element. All other races are certainly genocidal, war-mongering and irredeemable, when it comes down to it.

It just seems very bizarre that for all the criticism I've seen of the Tau that they don't fit into the 40k world, you're now saying that they fit in so well that they're not unique among the other factions.

I thinks that’s because of the red scare

 =Angel= wrote:

bibotot wrote:
I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar.

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them. For a human to recover an artifact of unknown provenenace- he risks chaos possession, opening warpgates to hell, simply going mad from some alien influence or revelation. The tau just sit there in their labcoats, smelling like day old sushi, treating it like a rock they're studying.

What? Orks have an immunity to Chaos. Necrons have an immunity to Chaos. Immunities to Chaos are par the course for 40k.

Tau are the core faction and more unique compared to the other races than Tyranid or Necrons (who are just the comedic relief races) lol this race certainly inspires a unique brand of fanatacism to say the least

This idea that the Tau are the only ones inventing new stuff is pretty adorable too. It's not like we just had a new and improved version of Space Marines with new wargear hit the field or anything...

Bremon wrote:
I was 15 when Tau were released and I hated them instantly. No one in my group liked them either thankfully so we never really had to acknowledge their existence. Their fluff and initial rules and design just seemed antithetical to what we liked about 40k.

My friends played marines and chaos; power armour is cool and playing an army of the elite guys fighting for humanity’s survival was interesting. I, and others, played Eldar because they had the most advanced technology and a bitter backstory. A friend liked Tyranids because they are a massive threat that no one understands that will eventually take over the galaxy.

Tau takes a big dump on this. All of a sudden our GW Overlords delivers a new race with grav tanks, better weaponry than Eldar/Marines, guns of multiple flavours to make everyone jealous, but a book and new kits, and, worst of all, a “good guy” to potentially inherit the universe (there wasn’t much dark stuff insinuated about the tau back then from what I can remember).

“They’re weak, they can’t handle melee” well most of my eldar couldn’t exactly handle melee back then either and I had a ton of guardian defenders lol.

We stopped playing in 4th and apparently Tau have only gotten more deserving of hate in the years since.

Sorry, you liked the Eldar for having the most advanced techonology and a tragic backstory, and your friends like marines for their power armor and fighting for humanity's survival? What about the Tau has "taken a big dudmp" on that? Do the Eldar no longer have the most advanced technology? They do. Do they not have a tragic backstory? They do. Does power armor still exist? It does. Do the marines still fight for humanity's survival? They do. Of literally every single reason you named for you or your friends liking the army you like hasn't changed from the T'au.

The criticisms you're making don't, in any way, relate to the things you're saying you like. What, is the new faction bad because it has "a book and net kits"? What kind of complaint is that? That new factions have to get new things? That's literally the most useless complaint that could possibly be made of everything. Can new factions also not have grav tanks? Multiple factions in 40k do already, what's your point? The only actual criticism you've made is the "good guy" thing, with everything else being weak meandering about any chance of a point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This idea that the Tau are the only ones inventing new stuff is pretty adorable too. It's not like we just had a new and improved version of Space Marines with new wargear hit the field or anything...

Sure, the Space Marines have started doing so now, but that's a proper change up in the way the factions are. The Tau's shtick was "Innovating", and that's something the Imperium is stepping on now, but it is definitely a Tau trait the Imperium have just started doing.

 John Prins wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
In short... They Don't fit the setting

The setting is huge and there's plenty of room for most anything. I'll agree that the Tau aren't major players in the galaxy, but not every faction NEEDS to be.

If they have a codex it is implied they are.

Codexes only imply GW thinks people will buy a force as an army. If it was actual significance, humanity would have:

Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Imperial Fleet
Codex: Ecclesiarchy
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus
and maaaaaybe Codex: Ultramar (they have 500 worlds, after all)

We have a codex imperial guard....

Imperial Navy doesn't fight on the ground so....

Ecclesiarchy already exists with Sisters of BAttle

Adeptus Mechancius already exists....

Codex Ultramar / Space Marines

Bad examples probably?

 Asherian Command wrote:


We have a codex imperial guard....

Imperial Navy doesn't fight on the ground so....

Ecclesiarchy already exists with Sisters of BAttle

Adeptus Mechancius already exists....

Codex Ultramar / Space Marines

Bad examples probably?

That's you missing the point: IF size of the organization were the only criteria (or the main one) for having a codex then grey knights, BA/DA/SW, Custodes, Imperial Knights, etc.. would not have codexes. Now do you believe that the Blood Angels chapter is large enough and powerful enough to take on the Tau single-handedly? If not, then any complaint about Tau being too small or irrelevant is moot.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This idea that the Tau are the only ones inventing new stuff is pretty adorable too. It's not like we just had a new and improved version of Space Marines with new wargear hit the field or anything...

Sure, the Space Marines have started doing so now, but that's a proper change up in the way the factions are. The Tau's shtick was "Innovating", and that's something the Imperium is stepping on now, but it is definitely a Tau trait the Imperium have just started doing.

They've been making new stuff all along. Land Raider patterns, Predator patterns, one out of seventyfive bajilion lasgun patterns and so on. Tau inventing stuff faster doesn't mean the Imperium hasn't been making new things.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This idea that the Tau are the only ones inventing new stuff is pretty adorable too. It's not like we just had a new and improved version of Space Marines with new wargear hit the field or anything...

Sure, the Space Marines have started doing so now, but that's a proper change up in the way the factions are. The Tau's shtick was "Innovating", and that's something the Imperium is stepping on now, but it is definitely a Tau trait the Imperium have just started doing.

They've been making new stuff all along. Land Raider patterns, Predator patterns, one out of seventyfive bajilion lasgun patterns and so on. Tau inventing stuff faster doesn't mean the Imperium hasn't been making new things.

They have been primarily recovering old designs which were lost, or expanding laterally into the arsenal of the Imperium- this is a tank pattern produced on this fw, this is the arvus lighter, a non combatant transport, this is a command rhino variant, and so on.
Whenever they pull stuff out of their ass like the Stormraven and centurions, it is implied to have been in use for centuries if not millennia.

When the tau 'innovate' a new thing, it dates that thing, like the primaris are dated to the end of M41.
If you want to play a game set in the age of apostasy, alien wars, any given historical conflict, Tau don't belong and neither do Primaris. The setting of 40k cannot absorb broad innovation and remain a static setting. It has to become a rolling timeline- but can't because they are too close to M42.

I suspect it's partly because their aesthetic doesn't immediately tell you what they're about, and partly because the other, generally older, factions have had a longer time for their miniature ranges to mature.

Take one look at tyranids, orks, necrons and dark eldar models and you'll have a good idea what they are. Tau, not so much.

Personally I don't mind their basic infantry and tank equivalents, and I really like all the kroot models, but don't like the battle suit aesthetic at all and wouldn't field any variant of them

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I suspect it's partly because their aesthetic doesn't immediately tell you what they're about, and partly because the other, generally older, factions have had a longer time for their miniature ranges to mature.

Take one look at tyranids, orks, necrons and dark eldar models and you'll have a good idea what they are. Tau, not so much.

I would daresay that is intentional.

Tau on the surface look like the typical shining white knight come to save you, but they have a dark underbelly to that if you dig a little deeper.

Well, as this topic has shown TC.


Many reasons.

Me personally?

They won't let me nom them when my fleet comes by to say hi.

They won't let me experiment OR torture them when my raid comes on by.


They won't let me wear their faces over my bat winged helmet and scream incoherently, so I sigh...that's why.


I never was bothered by their aesthetics. In fact I like the designs. I like the concept. I like the drones and the suits (but not the really big suits.Not a fan). Never cared for their playstyle.

Also, underneath that juicy red apple is a host of rot and a tangle of worms. People saying they're a shining beacon, the mostest good in the setting...are overlooking the factions shortcomings.

Poor vespid (among other issues, meant for another thread), also, indoctrination is A.O.K folks!

Never really got straight "anime vibe" from them, then again never understood why people rage on anime and fail to realize it's more than just the dime a dozen high school slice of life shtick. Though I myself do tend to stick to older anime (70's to 9early 90's) and couldn't tell you what's new in today's world.

I was always under the impression Tau were rather popular. Never had much of an issue around here with our Tau players or really, any of my local group.


Been beaten plenty of times by Tau players over the years. Also was able to nom'em. I always took the approach, no matter the list I faced. The issue wasn't that player. It wasn't that player's army (in this case Tau), the problem I approached...was how was I going to solve this rubic's cube.


Or more simply, how or what can I personally do better to make sure I don't lose again. What new tactic, do I need to swap models? Do I need to play a model better? Heck, am I even playing said model right?!?

Now I'm ranting though. It's easy enough to do.

But to bring this to a close. Remember people may not like the things you like and that's ok. They may like the things you do, and you know what? That's ok as well.


As they always say, a bird in the hand is biomass so eat it.

For me because they are aesthetically at odds with the rest of the universe. They seem levered in to sell 'manga/anime' styled figures and don't fit well into the background. Jar for me and don't suit 40K.

Damocles!

I'd say they have a good amount of fluff (I'm not sure about Black Library)

My local scene has at least 5-6 Tau players. Orks, DE, and AM are rare in comparison

The real reason why people hate Tau?

They got their asses kicked hard by them and never recovered.

I'm a Khornadian and I speak from experience.

Screw you fishgimps. My Deamon Prince demands vengeance.

Isengard wrote:
For me because they are aesthetically at odds with the rest of the universe. They seem levered in to sell 'manga/anime' styled figures and don't fit well into the background. Jar for me and don't suit 40K.

And I say again, and Eldar don't?

If Tau don't fit the look of 40k then neither do any Eldar Wraith units.

I like how the T'au are a call-out to the Mankind of the Dark Age of Technology. So primitive they still think they can build their way out of things.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I like how the T'au are a call-out to the Mankind of the Dark Age of Technology. So primitive they still think they can build their way out of things.

This, kids, is called "Dramatic Irony" or "the reader knows what the characters do not".

Back when 40k was a 1980s Judge Dredd/Robocop/Starship Troopers/Canticle for Liebowitz etc inspired Grimdark setting, the writing was absolutely lousy with this kind of irony.

in Starship Troopers, when the society created by the book and its endless need for pointless war is played straight and very positively by all the characters, the reader is supposed to recognize what these characters do not - i.e. that this is a fascist, self-defeating ideology and that the conflicts experienced by that society were most likely originally caused by their own aggressive acts. The book doesn't spell this out for you. It doesn't wink at you, or pat you on the head when you figure it out. It just continues to present the world through the lens of the unreliable narrators who are the characters, who see absolutely nothing wrong with their actions, and you're along for the ride.

In a horror movie, when Pennywise the clown is smiling and laughing and goofy holding out a toy boat to a giggling child in a storm drain, you the audience are scared, because you know there is no reason for a clown to be in a storm drain and you're made more uncomfortable by the fact that the little opening he's seen through is too small for him to have crawled down INTO. You as an audience can figure out that he has to have come FROM the sewers, making him even more unsettling. You don't need him to look instantly creepy and sinister for you to be creeped out. It's not necessary. Youve got a brain. WE HAVE BRAINS, REMAKE, DO YOU HEAR ME?

Ahem.

In the context of 40k, The Tau are cast as both the innocent child in the horror scenario (golly gee whillickers this race of space elves wants us to participate in a cultural exchange and they'll help us beat the invaders! Sounds fascinating!) and the society that touts their own superiority while you the audience know they are brainwashed, genocidal, etc.

This is as valid a grimdark concept as a bad guy encrusted with skulls screaming about blood. Both the over-the-top and the subtextual have a place in grimdark fiction.

P.S: plenty of the throwaway subtextual jokes in the original 40k setting have now been rewritten to be played straight and oh boy do they make me giggle even more now that they have ardent, highly serious fanboys behind them. Like how the OT had Han Solo making a stupid brag and mixing up a measure of time and distance, leading to Obi-Wan giving him a "this fething guy is a moron, he's perfect" look, then the braindead new movie had to go waaaaay out of its way to explain how NO, IT REALLY WAS TWELVE PARSECS, you get the same thing with 40k and the HH series. Sanguinius the Winged Blood Angel Primarch and Vulkan He's Tan the Black-skinned primarch and Lion El'Johnson Primarch of the Dark Angels were probably (I'll admit, I don't have proof of this and you'll never get a black library author to admit to it) originally jokes, intended to give lie to the reader the fact that these legendary heroes had probably been largely invented and inflated over 10,000 years of technological stagnation and superstitious ignorance. But nope. Now the imperium's records have been perfect for 10,000 years, and that's exactly how it happened, and the World eaters primarch was really named Angron. Angron the Angry guy.

Vulkan is just Vulkan. Vulkan He'Stan is a 40k Salamander because Vulkan is a title in a way.

It's not confusing at ALL.

But Warhammer's lore isn't silly at all. Like Corvus Corax the raven guy whose last words were nevermore.....

Ferrus Manus takes the cake though.

Calling out Han Solo for his parsec comment...

I always thought that it was taken to mean, in an abstract way, that Han had managed to actually shave down the distance required to make that jump. Seems legit in a world where people can lift rocks with their mind.

Then the movie came out and the parsec thing was... never really explained?

Anyways, the rest of that post was spot on. Grimdark can and should be able to use that sort of humour/irony. I mean, without a few intellectual quips my Zerkers really are just evil jocks screaming about skulls. Grimdark needs that depth in places because it is certainly lacking in others!

The Tau are pretty strongly hinted at as being the deluded, brainwashed pawns of some dark force. They're very grimdark.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ferrus Manus takes the cake though.

It's a good job he got those shiny metal arms otherwise that name would have been rubbish!

 darkcloak wrote:
Calling out Han Solo for his parsec comment...

I always thought that it was taken to mean, in an abstract way, that Han had managed to actually shave down the distance required to make that jump. Seems legit in a world where people can lift rocks with their mind.

Then the movie came out and the parsec thing was... never really explained?

Anyways, the rest of that post was spot on. Grimdark can and should be able to use that sort of humour/irony. I mean, without a few intellectual quips my Zerkers really are just evil jocks screaming about skulls. Grimdark needs that depth in places because it is certainly lacking in others!

Ben Kenobi: Yes indeed, if it's a fast ship.
Han Solo: Fast ship? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?
Ben Kenobi: No. Should I have?
Han Solo: It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you, old man. What's the cargo?

Watch this scene over. As soon as Han finishes this line, obi-wan gives him the exact same look you see the donkey-cave prince guy in frozen give the girl when he says "isn't it weird how we always finish each others..." and she says "sandwiches?" Oh, you're a moron, you're perfect.

It's the fanboys that come in afterwards and say "Han Solo couldn't possibly have said something stupid, he's a character I love and idolize!" or "Harrison Ford couldn't have possibly just thrown in some technical jargon to spice up a spaceship brag about how fast his ship was and it ended up in the final cut" or "Someone as meticulous and thorough as George Lucas couldn't possibly have heard a word that sounded good and not fully understood it when he wrote it into his script!"

It's a natural instinct that the human brain takes a narrative and makes it both more realistic to them and more relatable to them, but and I really have to stress this it does not make a better story if you just go into an existing story and explain something that would otherwise be a mystery or maybe not make tons of sense. It just makes a stilted, clunky, unoriginal narrative, and a narrative that compresses the setting. Makes it feel like it has less promise, less depths to plumb, while writing an entirely new setting in expands the setting and makes it more interesting.

Theres a natural human tendency to like what's been detailed out, fully explored and pinned down so when it's referenced in a later piece of writing you can point it out and say "I know what that is! It's thing I know!" and a tendency to dismiss what's new, possibly hinted at but not yet fully fleshed out. But the second is why a piece of writing initially captures you, and makes you think. The introduction of the Tau does more to expand 40k's universe than the whole exploration of the Horus Heresy, or the fleshing out and pinning down of exactly what is a custode, why do they custode, what are they custoding, how are they made, what do they like for breakfast, etc.

Because they don't do melee. That's pretty much why I don't like them. They are just techno nerds that like to win wars with gadgets, instead getting into the think of it with a chainsword.

Alcibiades wrote:
The Tau are pretty strongly hinted at as being the deluded, brainwashed pawns of some dark force. They're very grimdark.

Excepting those Farsight folks. They're alright.

the_scotsman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Calling out Han Solo for his parsec comment...

I always thought that it was taken to mean, in an abstract way, that Han had managed to actually shave down the distance required to make that jump. Seems legit in a world where people can lift rocks with their mind.

Then the movie came out and the parsec thing was... never really explained?

Anyways, the rest of that post was spot on. Grimdark can and should be able to use that sort of humour/irony. I mean, without a few intellectual quips my Zerkers really are just evil jocks screaming about skulls. Grimdark needs that depth in places because it is certainly lacking in others!

Ben Kenobi: Yes indeed, if it's a fast ship.
Han Solo: Fast ship? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?
Ben Kenobi: No. Should I have?
Han Solo: It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you, old man. What's the cargo?

Watch this scene over. As soon as Han finishes this line, obi-wan gives him the exact same look you see the donkey-cave prince guy in frozen give the girl when he says "isn't it weird how we always finish each others..." and she says "sandwiches?" Oh, you're a moron, you're perfect.

It's the fanboys that come in afterwards and say "Han Solo couldn't possibly have said something stupid, he's a character I love and idolize!" or "Harrison Ford couldn't have possibly just thrown in some technical jargon to spice up a spaceship brag about how fast his ship was and it ended up in the final cut" or "Someone as meticulous and thorough as George Lucas couldn't possibly have heard a word that sounded good and not fully understood it when he wrote it into his script!"

That's the worst thing about the EU - anything mentioned in the movie must be super-double-awesome and significant.

The Tibanna gas they mine at Bespin is mentioned without any context as to what it is other than they're operating outside of imperial control and Lando won the place gambling so presumably it's nothing special.

The EU decides that this gas is really rare and is used to power guns and hyperdrives making it incredibly valuable and a strategic military resource (not really meshing with the won it gambling or operating outside imperial control).

It couldn't have just been the stuff they put inside lightbulbs or something?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This idea that the Tau are the only ones inventing new stuff is pretty adorable too. It's not like we just had a new and improved version of Space Marines with new wargear hit the field or anything...

Sure, the Space Marines have started doing so now, but that's a proper change up in the way the factions are. The Tau's shtick was "Innovating", and that's something the Imperium is stepping on now, but it is definitely a Tau trait the Imperium have just started doing.

They've been making new stuff all along. Land Raider patterns, Predator patterns, one out of seventyfive bajilion lasgun patterns and so on. Tau inventing stuff faster doesn't mean the Imperium hasn't been making new things.

The imperium inventing things is rare. It's not something they do normally, because they're supposed to be a backwards place that fear innovation. It happens, but they're generally known for being the opposite of innovative.

One thing to consider is the slew of newblood that came into/back to the game with 8th.

Now go and look on any Battle Report on places like Miniwargaming involving the Tau then read the comments section, or type 'Tau' into a search on Reddit. What you'll get is a sea of people slagging off the Tau in terms of gameplay, it's playerbase and lore. There is a hugely negative atmosphere surrounding every aspect of the Tau, largely propagated by the vast Imperial playerbase. People only play them because they overpowered. People only play them because of Riptides. People only play them to use cowardly gunlines. They're for weeaboos. They're Chinese communists. They're Mary Sues. Their lore is terrible, etc, etc.

All of the LE HERESY BLAM/PURGE LE CHAOS FOR DA EMPRAH XDDD meymeys are annoying, but generally good hearted. Now compare that to how much genuine bile the Tau get. If you were a newbie, would you really pay 'em much attention compared to everyone else? You'd think the entire store would turn and spit on your face the second you put down your models from half the stuff you can read.

 Arbitrator wrote:
One thing to consider is the slew of newblood that came into/back to the game with 8th.

Now go and look on any Battle Report on places like Miniwargaming involving the Tau then read the comments section, or type 'Tau' into a search on Reddit. What you'll get is a sea of people slagging off the Tau in terms of gameplay, it's playerbase and lore. There is a hugely negative atmosphere surrounding every aspect of the Tau, largely propagated by the vast Imperial playerbase. People only play them because they overpowered. People only play them because of Riptides. People only play them to use cowardly gunlines. They're for weeaboos. They're Chinese communists. They're Mary Sues. Their lore is terrible, etc, etc.

All of the LE HERESY BLAM/PURGE LE CHAOS FOR DA EMPRAH XDDD meymeys are annoying, but generally good hearted. Now compare that to how much genuine bile the Tau get. If you were a newbie, would you really pay 'em much attention compared to everyone else? You'd think the entire store would turn and spit on your face the second you put down your models from half the stuff you can read.

That's what happens when people learn the background from gakky youtube series and 1d4chan...

 Arbitrator wrote:
One thing to consider is the slew of newblood that came into/back to the game with 8th.

Now go and look on any Battle Report on places like Miniwargaming involving the Tau then read the comments section, or type 'Tau' into a search on Reddit. What you'll get is a sea of people slagging off the Tau in terms of gameplay, it's playerbase and lore. .

They're kids. What do you expect?

Because GW will always tailor to space marines and the Imperium since it is their main marketing point and there is the fact that the space blueberries are not exactly thought highly of by the majority of the 40k community being the most shooty army and being Xenos scum therefore people brought into 40k by friends probably won't get brought into Tau this is of course assuming that the person is competitive

 Grimtuff wrote:

That's what happens when people learn the background from gakky youtube series and 1d4chan...

That's where people learn everything now. Who reads books?

Maybe it’s because their anime aesthetic doesn’t really fit into the rest of the universe? That’s one criticism of them I’ve heard before.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe it’s because their anime aesthetic doesn’t really fit into the rest of the universe? That’s one criticism of them I’ve heard before.

heck back when I saw my first Tau models I thought someone was using anime models as proxies.

Tau players: "they aren't anime-like at all!"

Also Tau players: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tau+gundam+conversion

I don't really see Tau as unpopular, they just get overshadowed a bit by the rest of the many factions in the universe. They have pretty good support from GW, in fact in 2016 we had a whole month OcTAUber, where they got updated kits for may of their units including fire warriors, battle suits, and a brand new giant battle suit, as well as GW's first alien terrain fortification.

Support and popularity come in cycles with the release windows; orks last got major updates in 2014 with their 7th ed codex. (New HQ's, supplement, Gorkanaut, Flash Gits, bunch of characters, MANz, mek cannons) but haven's gotten much love in the 4 years since, up until this year. I;m sure after ORKtober greenskinz won't get much love for a few years, but that's just how it goes.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because they don't do melee. That's pretty much why I don't like them. They are just techno nerds that like to win wars with gadgets, instead getting into the think of it with a chainsword.

That's how modern wars are won.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe it’s because their anime aesthetic doesn’t really fit into the rest of the universe? That’s one criticism of them I’ve heard before.

heck back when I saw my first Tau models I thought someone was using anime models as proxies.

This. Almost everyone else is ‘crusty’, covered in relics, purity seals, glyphs, spikes and skulls while packing chainswords and power fists, but not the tau. At least the relatively ‘smooth’ Necrons and Tyranids have melee weapons to tie them in.

I don’t know if I’d call the Tau unpopular. I know a dozen people who collect them. I think ‘unfavourite’ is a better term. Nobody likes them because they’re nerdy goody two shoes who aren’t even good.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe it’s because their anime aesthetic doesn’t really fit into the rest of the universe? That’s one criticism of them I’ve heard before.

heck back when I saw my first Tau models I thought someone was using anime models as proxies.

This. Almost everyone else is ‘crusty’, covered in relics, purity seals, glyphs, spikes and skulls while packing chainswords and power fists, but not the tau. At least the relatively ‘smooth’ Necrons and Tyranids have melee weapons to tie them in.

I don’t know if I’d call the Tau unpopular. I know a dozen people who collect them. I think ‘unfavourite’ is a better term. Nobody likes them because they’re nerdy goody two shoes who aren’t even good.

To grimdarkify the Tau you just have to get rid of their 'greater good' shtick and actually make it dark and depict that to be dark in the novels and stories.

We don't have that instead we have tau who are smarter than everyone (Even more than eldar) or naive as hell. I remember reading one book where this tau had this very complicated plan of... attacking the enemy from behind. Ohhh masterful and the imperium space marine army fell for it, hookline and sinker in the dumbest way possible. My issue is that they have to dumb everyone down to make the Tau seem smart. If it was better written I would forgive the tau and their mary sueness.

I wish they went with the full samurai or Japanese Bushdo theme it would not only be cool and aesthetically pleasing but it would be a unique faction in 40k.

Martel732 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because they don't do melee. That's pretty much why I don't like them. They are just techno nerds that like to win wars with gadgets, instead getting into the think of it with a chainsword.

That's how modern wars are won.

My MPL-50 and I would like to know how you're defining 'modern'.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I wish they went with the full samurai or Japanese Bushdo theme it would not only be cool and aesthetically pleasing but it would be a unique faction in 40k.

They would be even more trope-y or stereotypical than they already are, because ninjas/samurai have been done to death, in almost literally every form of media. It would be less unique, in my opinion, to just turn Tau into sci-fi ninjas and retcon the disdain for close combat (Gundams for example, the thing they're compared to the most and the reason the army allegedly doesn't "fit in", all have at least a couple laser swords as standard, if not something truly wacky or over-the-top like a giant pair of shears or a big feth-off mace). They way I see it, it's making them more anime, not less. Also, Eldar kinda already have their own form of "Bushido" so it would be stepping on their toes again, which people would also complain about.

Or am I all wrong and that's really all it is, they don't have swords so they don't "fit in"? Because that's the only real difference I can think of between Tau and Eldar as far as the complaints go...Eldar models all look clean, smooth, and are all brightly-colored just like Tau are, they're not covered in blood or spikes and they aren't wearing skull trophies, either, (Hell, their armor isn't even chipped or dirtied up like the current Tau studio scheme is now), but they do have dedicated CC units whereas Tau obviously don't. People largely seem to accept Eldar as part of the setting and I've never seen any of these people complain about their models for committing the same sins as Tau models, even when it's pointed out to them specifically they'll largely ignore it and just keep harping on about how Tau are "too clean" or whatever. Or is it just because Eldar have been kinda "grandfathered" into the setting, and people still hold out hope that if they complain about it long enough (17 years and counting!) GW will eventually listen and finally Squat the Tau range?

I don’t think they’d squat the Tau. I wouldn’t want them to either. I’ve got a real love hate relationship with them.

I remember back in the day in 2002 when Tau were released, I immediately fell in love with them. The contrast between high-tech foot soldiers/combat suits and the feral Kroot allies was right up my alley.

I do remember, however, that the older generation was not quite as excited in our GW store, since their design was very different from everything else.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I wish they went with the full samurai or Japanese Bushdo theme it would not only be cool and aesthetically pleasing but it would be a unique faction in 40k.

They would be even more trope-y or stereotypical than they already are, because ninjas/samurai have been done to death, in almost literally every form of media. It would be less unique, in my opinion, to just turn Tau into sci-fi ninjas and retcon the disdain for close combat (Gundams for example, the thing they're compared to the most and the reason the army allegedly doesn't "fit in", all have at least a couple laser swords as standard, if not something truly wacky or over-the-top like a giant pair of shears or a big feth-off mace). They way I see it, it's making them more anime, not less. Also, Eldar kinda already have their own form of "Bushido" so it would be stepping on their toes again, which people would also complain about.

Or am I all wrong and that's really all it is, they don't have swords so they don't "fit in"? Because that's the only real difference I can think of between Tau and Eldar as far as the complaints go...Eldar models all look clean, smooth, and are all brightly-colored just like Tau are, they're not covered in blood or spikes and they aren't wearing skull trophies, either, (Hell, their armor isn't even chipped or dirtied up like the current Tau studio scheme is now), but they do have dedicated CC units whereas Tau obviously don't. People largely seem to accept Eldar as part of the setting and I've never seen any of these people complain about their models for committing the same sins as Tau models, even when it's pointed out to them specifically they'll largely ignore it and just keep harping on about how Tau are "too clean" or whatever. Or is it just because Eldar have been kinda "grandfathered" into the setting, and people still hold out hope that if they complain about it long enough (17 years and counting!) GW will eventually listen and finally Squat the Tau range?

Yup, pointed this out several times ITT. If Tau don't fit the setting neither do Eldar.

40k isn't all skulls. Yes, some of the main factions have them due to being either barbaric, vicious, millions-of-year-old walking images of death or a freaking mass cult of martyrdom but several other factions don't.

I think the only thing Sidstyler didn't address in his post is that anime Tau would loose markerlight tables in favor of a blazing passion table.