As the title suggests, I intend for this to be some sort of "writing challenge". From what I've seen, most people believe that the Thousand Sons were at no fault and were purely victims. Most evidence that I've seen supports this argument, which is what makes defending this side of the argument a bit challenging. The purpose of this "challenge" is to use evidence and logic to defend the Space Wolves for the destruction of Prospero and the Thousand Sons, and although at first you may not believe in what you're writing, you and those who read your argument may come to a new way of thinking.
Good luck and have fun!
(Note: This isn't meant to be a debate about whether the Space Wolves were right or wrong, but a persuasive argument. That said, I do encourage disputing points for the purpose of further understanding on the subject.)
Horus was the Warmaster; given the duty of commanding the Emperor's forces during the Great Crusade, if he commanded/persuaded Russ that the destruction of the Thousand Sons was preferable to their imprisonment then Russ could hardly ignore him. And despite following Horus' orders, Russ did give Magnus one last chance to give himself up - of course he didn't realise that the Thousand Sons spy he was trying to communicate to Magnus through was corrupted by Chaos. Plus it didn't help that Magnus stayed inside for most of the assault sulking rather than simpler stride out to meet Russ and give himself up.
mrhappyface wrote: Horus was the Warmaster; given the duty of commanding the Emperor's forces during the Great Crusade, if he commanded/persuaded Russ that the destruction of the Thousand Sons was preferable to their imprisonment then Russ could hardly ignore him. And despite following Horus' orders, Russ did give Magnus one last chance to give himself up - of course he didn't realise that the Thousand Sons spy he was trying to communicate to Magnus through was corrupted by Chaos. Plus it didn't help that Magnus stayed inside for most of the assault sulking rather than simpler stride out to meet Russ and give himself up.
But despite that, MAGNUS DID NOTHING WRONG!
While Magnus did do a heck of a lot wrong, he didn't do anything malicious. Horus was smart enough (at least at the start) to know that Big Daddy E had secret plans for a reason and that when he said stuff like "Don't do daemonic stuff Magnus you bloody idiot", he said it for a reason. Even if that reason was stupid and the Emperor was so post-human as to not understand even basic human emotion anymore.
As for what the Space Wolves did, despite the Wolves being more and more painted as hypocritical furry fetishists with each passing day by GW, Russ was absolutely and unequivocally in the right. As far as Russ was concerned, Horus was still the Warmaster and loyal to the Emperor, and if the Emperor told Horus to tell Russ "It's time for purge number 3 go do what you were designed for." then that is what Russ would do. Russ had no obligation to show the slightest hint of mercy to Magnus, but he did because that is what brothers do.
Eh, Space Wolves have been made out to me (at least in the HH books) to basically be the stereotypical "I was only following orders" goons you see in a lot of silly military movies. While it's a reasonable excuse for a lot of stuff, it makes the Space Wolves one of the most shallow and uninteresting factions in HH.
Thousand Son's weren't malicious in their actions but they were arrogant and assumed they had a mastery of the Warp that they didn't actually have. Nikea should have been a major flag for them which caused them to rethink their assumptions and approach but instead they stubbornly clung on to their beliefs which ultimately ended up with Magnus damming the entire human race and ruining the Emperor's plan, all done with the best of intentions though.The Emperor is understandably upset about this and he sends Russ to fetch Magnus and bring him back to Terra armed with his legion, some Custodian and Sister's of silence assistance and this writ of censure https://i.redd.it/hxdyq91kxymy.png which basically says Russ can do whatever he wants in pursuit of his mission and there's nothing anyone can do to limit him.
Russ head's out to prospero with all this and with already existing bad blood between the two primarchs based entirely on their approaches to the warp and then he has Horus whispering into his ear about some new bad stuff Magnus has been up to and he urges Russ to go in heavy and punish Magnus, it's pretty understandable for Russ to take the Warmaster, Favoured son of the Emperor and the Brother he's known longest at his word. So when the wolves arrive all full of righteous fury they go straight on the attack, the Son's defend themselves everything as is expected but then the Son's reap the harvest they've sown, the flesh change strikes and turns them into monsters, all sorts of crazy, currupted pycshic gak happens and the Wolves have utter proof that they were in the right, the Son's were corrupted by their powers, they had strayed off the path and they needed to be purged. At this point the destruction of the legion is guaranteed, the Emperor would undoubtedly have ordered the legion dissolved and purged once he heard about the scale of the corruption in any case. And the final point to be made I guess is that Russ was charged to bring Magnus back to Terra, it doesn't say anything about his legion or Prospero. If Russ felt he needed to annihilate Magnus's legion and raze his homeworld then he was empowered to do so as long as he brought Magnus back, which he might have done if he and Magnus hadn't ended up in a fight to the death that ends with Magnus spiriting himself and his legion away.
Elbows wrote: Eh, Space Wolves have been made out to me (at least in the HH books) to basically be the stereotypical "I was only following orders" goons you see in a lot of silly military movies. While it's a reasonable excuse for a lot of stuff, it makes the Space Wolves one of the most shallow and uninteresting factions in HH.
Depends on how you read on what Russ and his legion had to do. Between what ever happened to the two we don't talked about legions, his conflict with Angron and his legion showing that if he was called in means that any time he's called in that what he and his legion have to fight is not gonna listen to reason and his personal problems with Magnus, he tried to avoid all out war. It didn't work out that way and both sides of the story is tragic in it's own way.
Horus' wish - for Russ to exterminate Magnus and his sons - was directly contrary to the writ issued to Russ by his Emperor, which very clearly stated that Magnus should be brought before the throne, there to answer for his transgressions.
Russ, however, being small and furry of mind and slow of wit could not see that the wishes of a brother could not, did not and should not countermand the wishes of his father emperor, and that the very act of trying to countermand them in fact should have placed Horus under a deep shadow of suspicion.
This was compounded by Russ' barbaric and insatiable blood-lust - which is to say that a lower creature, such as him, cannot fairly be held to the same standards of reason, honour and word given as can the average human. Therefore, while his actions and that of his pack of rabid dogs cannot be 'defended', they can at least be excused as the effect of brutal and instinctive minds. You might as well blame the sea for rising - it has no self control or reason.
A) The Emperor made a decree at Nikea and made it clear it was a capitol crime. Despite this Magnus continued his ways with catastrophic results justifying the emperors decision.
B) The Space Wolves were sent to bring Magnus before the emperor to answer for his crime, en route Horus led Russ to believe that the emperors orders had changed , that Magnus was too far gone and he was to be executed. Despite this Russ pleaded with Magnus through the remembrancer Kasper Hauser to surrender believing that the remembrancer was an unwitting spy for the Crimson King (this later turned out to be another deception by Horus).
C) Despite Magnus telling his sons indeed they were wrong and he'd made a horrible mistake, they chose to fight back anyway, this convinced Russ more so that Horus was correct.
D) Russ acknowledged to Valdor that there was some hypocrisy in his use of rune priests but it was necessary as it takes the warp to fight the warp. He also pointed out some differences - that he knew to be afraid of the warp and that his rune priests recreated the elements of Fenris , where the thousand sons and other psykers summon warp magic and other unnatural things. The 1ksons even consorted with demons!
E) The flesh change during the burning of Prospero is further proof that Russ was right and Magnus and his legion had lost control.
F through to Z) MAGNUS MADE A DEAL WITH FETHING TZEENTCH!!!
D) Russ acknowledged to Valdor that there was some hypocrisy in his use of rune priests but it was necessary as it takes the warp to fight the warp. He also pointed out some differences - that he knew to be afraid of the warp and that his rune priests recreated the elements of Fenris ,
They recreated the elements of Fenris... With the Warp!
They were loyal to their commanders. They were commanded to exterminate the Sons. They went there and made an attempt to avoid it then followed out their orders.
The Space Wolves are a bunch of flea-bitten, mangy beasts who were only too happy to follow Horus's orders, as they already didn't like the TKsons. They followed Horus's orders to the letter, without question (you know, "wipe your brothers out, cuz I said so"; I'm pretty sure if the Marines were told to wipe out the National Guard, they'd go "wait, wtf?!" and ask questions before doing so).
Granted, Magnus disobeyed his father; but he did it to save the Imperium. He disobeyed to save the universe and lost, meanwhile Russ obeyed insane orders to the letter, and lost an entire chapter of marines to Chaos. Bad dog!
The mongrels also have a history of saying "this is bad, but it's okay for us to do cuz we do it differently" in regards to psykers. They're hypocrites, donkey-caves, and they deserved to have Magnus return with a vengeance to wipe out most of their chapter. Too bad he didn't get all of them.
They get literally zero forgiveness. Except on the grounds that I have an awesome Daemon Primarch model. So...I guess there's that!
At the end of the day, Magnus messed up so bad its the single reason the heresy wasn't over in a month with Big E laying the smackdown on the traitor legions himself.
Despite not liking the SW look or them really in general (Russ was at fault completely with the whole DA debacle) Russ didn't do anything wrong in this case. Big E told him to bring back Magnus in chains and then Horus (who was speaking with the authority of the emperor) told him that there had been a slight change and to kill Magnus. Not only was he following an order but it wasn't even that big of a leap to think the order had been changed considering just how badly Magnus had just screwed over all of humanity
Nope... I'm a Thousand Sons fan. So, even if someone was able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they the Thousand Sons were completely at fault, I wouldn't lift a finger to defend the Space Wolves.
So when the wolves arrive all full of righteous fury they go straight on the attack,
That is blatantly untrue. Please read the relevant material.
The Space Wolves are a bunch of flea-bitten, mangy beasts who were only too happy to follow Horus's orders, as they already didn't like the TKsons. They followed Horus's orders to the letter, without question (you know, "wipe your brothers out, cuz I said so"; I'm pretty sure if the Marines were told to wipe out the National Guard, they'd go "wait, wtf?!" and ask questions before doing so).
Granted, Magnus disobeyed his father; but he did it to save the Imperium. He disobeyed to save the universe and lost, meanwhile Russ obeyed insane orders to the letter, and lost an entire chapter of marines to Chaos. Bad dog!
The mongrels also have a history of saying "this is bad, but it's okay for us to do cuz we do it differently" in regards to psykers. They're hypocrites, donkey-caves, and they deserved to have Magnus return with a vengeance to wipe out most of their chapter. Too bad he didn't get all of them.
They get literally zero forgiveness. Except on the grounds that I have an awesome Daemon Primarch model. So...I guess there's that!
Ah so thoughtful a piece of prose was never written. Also blatantly wrong. Again read the material. Thousand Sons were already consorting with daemons. They just hadn't realized how corrupted they had become.
Russ, however, being small and furry of mind and slow of wit could not see that the wishes of a brother could not, did not and should not countermand the wishes of his father emperor, and that the very act of trying to countermand them in fact should have placed Horus under a deep shadow of suspicion.
This was compounded by Russ' barbaric and insatiable blood-lust - which is to say that a lower creature, such as him, cannot fairly be held to the same standards of reason, honour and word given as can the average human. Therefore, while his actions and that of his pack of rabid dogs cannot be 'defended', they can at least be excused as the effect of brutal and instinctive minds. You might as well blame the sea for rising - it has no self control or reason.
Think that about sums it up?
I think it shows that maybe you need to simplify things then insult and make caricatures of things you don't like for some reason.
BaconCatBug wrote: As for what the Space Wolves did, despite the Wolves being more and more painted as hypocritical furry fetishists with each passing day by GW, Russ was absolutely and unequivocally in the right. As far as Russ was concerned, Horus was still the Warmaster and loyal to the Emperor, and if the Emperor told Horus to tell Russ "It's time for purge number 3 go do what you were designed for." then that is what Russ would do. Russ had no obligation to show the slightest hint of mercy to Magnus, but he did because that is what brothers do.
Yup, he was "right" if we take definition of "right" from dictionary of the Ethiopian language published in 1893 in order to prove his orders (that were loud and clear to anyone sane with a pair of eyes) didn't include permission to fire pistols in close proximity of the Thousand Sons therefore were totally invalid
Yeah, let's ignore the fact the Emperor ordered Magnus captured, not killed, the fact Malcador outright stated DON'T DO ANYTHING RASH YOU MORON, the fact that Valdor, a man arguably as important as Horus was screaming about censuring, not carpet bombing the whole time, and the fact head Wolfwolf went with orders of the at best fourth important guy ignoring the orders of the top three. Especially seeing the whole operation was purely the matter of Terran policies and Horus had literally nothing to do with it. Also, multiple new sources state battle of Prospero was in fact first real SM/SM fight (that so shocked multiple Primarchs they demanded Russ to be purged in turn, something that wouldn't happen if the fanon about the "other" purges was true) and to make SW treason even worse, Russ composed a treatise on how to best kill loyalist SM after Prospero and handed it to Horus, not giving a copy to any of his loyal brothers.
But I digress. In fact, we can put the blame on someone else. Namely, the Emperor. In his incompetence, when he saw Curze, Mortarion, Russ, Angron and Lorgar, he shown these wild animals completely absurd and pointless mercy, not ordering them shot on the spot, but allowing them to corrupt five fine legions. Had he simply had these barbarians killed, maybe Imperial Heralds or War Hounds would be slightly less efficient in the short term, but in the long one, literally everyone around would be better off and Heresy would not happen (or even if it did, it would be easily contained with loyalist forces). Therefore, the Emperor is to blame for the acts of these deviants, especially in the light of his supposed precognition
But I digress. In fact, we can put the blame on someone else. Namely, the Emperor. In his incompetence, when he saw Curze, Mortarion, Russ, Angron and Lorgar, he shown these wild animals completely absurd and pointless mercy, not ordering them shot on the spot, but allowing them to corrupt five fine legions. Had he simply had these barbarians killed, maybe Imperial Heralds or War Hounds would be slightly less efficient in the short term, but in the long one, literally everyone around would be better off and Heresy would not happen (or even if it did, it would be easily contained with loyalist forces). Therefore, the Emperor is to blame for the acts of these deviants, especially in the light of his supposed precognition
The new lore suggest that it was all the plan of the Emperor. He didn't make all Primarchs equal, and he had planed the Heresy from the beginning. What did go wrong was Chaos making it happen too soon, and the destruction of the Webway proyect.
Elbows wrote: Eh, Space Wolves have been made out to me (at least in the HH books) to basically be the stereotypical "I was only following orders" goons you see in a lot of silly military movies. While it's a reasonable excuse for a lot of stuff, it makes the Space Wolves one of the most shallow and uninteresting factions in HH.
That might be the case if Prosperio was the END of the "Space Wolves character arc" but it's NOT. It's the beginning. far from being the "I was just following orders" guy. the Space Wolves is the guy at the beginning of the movie who is ordered to commit an atrocity, and finds himself asking ".. what have I done" To use a Star Wars Analogy, the Space Wolves aren't Anakin killing children in the Jedi Temple in ROTS. it's Finn taking part in the Raid at the beginning of TFA.
Prosperio is why the Space Wolves of 40k are notoriously independant minded, and tend to focus on their views of "what is right/best for the IoM" instead of mindlessly following orders of the Emperor's designated proxies. The High Lords of Terra had to create a whole new Space Marine Chapter (the Minotaurs) to do the Job that the Heresy era Space Wolves did.
Galas wrote: The new lore suggest that it was all the plan of the Emperor. He didn't make all Primarchs equal, and he had planed the Heresy from the beginning. What did go wrong was Chaos making it happen too soon, and the destruction of the Webway proyect.
In other words, the new lore suggests that the Emperor was so full of pride that he thought in his genius that he could manipulate basically every major player in the galaxy at that point in time in an exacting fashion that would result in the annihilation of the space marine legions and somehow leave his empire squeaky clean.
The Emperor thought he could outsmart chaos, and in doing so proved himself to be very, very stupid.
Sorry, but every time I think of the wolves attacking Prospero all I can think of is that old movie with the Jocks yelling NERDS! and then beating the crap out of the geeky kids....granted the geeks won in the end (Spoiler alert, Magnus wins in the end)
Galas wrote: The new lore suggest that it was all the plan of the Emperor. He didn't make all Primarchs equal, and he had planed the Heresy from the beginning. What did go wrong was Chaos making it happen too soon, and the destruction of the Webway proyect.
In other words, the new lore suggests that the Emperor was so full of pride that he thought in his genius that he could manipulate basically every major player in the galaxy at that point in time in an exacting fashion that would result in the annihilation of the space marine legions and somehow leave his empire squeaky clean.
The Emperor thought he could outsmart chaos, and in doing so proved himself to be very, very stupid.
Basically, yes. He wanted to destroy Space Marines after the Great Crusade just like he did with the Thunder Warriors. He fooled Chaos once, when he made that pact to make the Primarchs. But in the end, the Chaos Gods got him.
Here is my attempt (in truth I think it is both parties that are to blame to be honest for how things played out). Minor spoilers from Wolfsbane and a book here and there.
The whole hypocrisy and sorcery bit: What if Russ (and by extension the Khan but coming from opposite directions) are right? That is to say, what if there is a fundamental difference in how the Russ and the Khan utilize their warp powers versus the Thousands Sons, which to me seems to be supported in Wolfsbane and the books about the Khan (Path to Heaven? or maybe Scars I'd have to check). The V and VI both promote a more moderate approach to using Warp Powers, of knowing one's limit and lines and not crossing them. Meanwhile the XV promoted constant improvement and passing those lines in the name of understanding and personal improvement. This would be fine if it wasn't for the nature of the warp; the more you are exposed to it, the more corruption you receive. Combine this with the fact the XV tutelaries are literal chaos daemons in disguise. This would help explain how the TS suffer the flesh change in a more specific way- it's not only some genetic flaw but a direct result of working with daemons and channeling the warp directly through the XV legionaries themselves and their tutelary who is always closeby. They are the first chaos spawns, they just didn't live in the warp at the time so the only time it could happen would be when they are channeling powers, and the more you channel the worse it gets except for the most powerful, or those chosen to be spared by Tzeentch/chaos in general. In this hypothetical the TS need to censored not for the act of using the warp, but HOW they use it because it is fundamentally flawed. Now why would the Emperor make them this way (or allow them to operate for so long if it wasn't) is another question entirely, but this explanation seems consistent with what we have observed.
Compare that to the Khan, who's librarians always advocated limitations. Russ also advocated limitations, and Fenris itself seemingly has some sort of warp entity/something odd in the form of Morkai and his realm Russ visited who acts as a buffer. It is therefore not implausible to argue that this more limited approach to the warp was much safer. Since one knows ones' limits and won't channel nearly as much warp power, one can stay far safer, even more so if one is channeling the power in a more round-about way rather than a tutelary.
With these hypothetical (but relatively safe to say) points set as true, then Russ can feel completely fine censuring Magnus for sorcery because it is a nuance of how the warp is being used, not the use itself that is the problem. The flesh change (which Russ would know of because of the Ark Reach cluster) would confirm Russ' fears and he was as much trying to protect Magnus as rebuke him at Nikea. To hear Horus say Magnus has continued his practices and in fact did something so bad worthy of censure after being warned, to the point of being ordered to kill Magnus, the Wolf King could only fear the worse. Perhaps what happened the II and XI could have lent strength to his fears, but that is just conjecture. Either way given the limited information he'd have it's not ludicrious for Russ to attack Magnus as a wayward son.
Having said that, after the moment Russ saw the defenses were down at Prospero why he landed guns blazing is a major problem I have personally. I'm not sure if this is a defense for the SW per se, but it certainly would put into context on why they'd be fine censoring the sorcerers while they themselves used the warp, which is the main reason for the conflict in the first place.
BaconCatBug wrote: As for what the Space Wolves did, despite the Wolves being more and more painted as hypocritical furry fetishists with each passing day by GW, Russ was absolutely and unequivocally in the right. As far as Russ was concerned, Horus was still the Warmaster and loyal to the Emperor, and if the Emperor told Horus to tell Russ "It's time for purge number 3 go do what you were designed for." then that is what Russ would do. Russ had no obligation to show the slightest hint of mercy to Magnus, but he did because that is what brothers do.
Yup, he was "right" if we take definition of "right" from dictionary of the Ethiopian language published in 1893 in order to prove his orders (that were loud and clear to anyone sane with a pair of eyes) didn't include permission to fire pistols in close proximity of the Thousand Sons therefore were totally invalid
Yeah, let's ignore the fact the Emperor ordered Magnus captured, not killed, the fact Malcador outright stated DON'T DO ANYTHING RASH YOU MORON, the fact that Valdor, a man arguably as important as Horus was screaming about censuring, not carpet bombing the whole time, and the fact head Wolfwolf went with orders of the at best fourth important guy ignoring the orders of the top three. Especially seeing the whole operation was purely the matter of Terran policies and Horus had literally nothing to do with it. Also, multiple new sources state battle of Prospero was in fact first real SM/SM fight (that so shocked multiple Primarchs they demanded Russ to be purged in turn, something that wouldn't happen if the fanon about the "other" purges was true) and to make SW treason even worse, Russ composed a treatise on how to best kill loyalist SM after Prospero and handed it to Horus, not giving a copy to any of his loyal brothers.
But I digress. In fact, we can put the blame on someone else. Namely, the Emperor. In his incompetence, when he saw Curze, Mortarion, Russ, Angron and Lorgar, he shown these wild animals completely absurd and pointless mercy, not ordering them shot on the spot, but allowing them to corrupt five fine legions. Had he simply had these barbarians killed, maybe Imperial Heralds or War Hounds would be slightly less efficient in the short term, but in the long one, literally everyone around would be better off and Heresy would not happen (or even if it did, it would be easily contained with loyalist forces). Therefore, the Emperor is to blame for the acts of these deviants, especially in the light of his supposed precognition
All of this is ignoring that Russ and his Legion are the only ones pre heresy who had been called on at least once and possible three times to fight another legion for real. Something that the first few HH novels make clear is something that is so alien that the first time it happens, the marines involved barely know how to process or justify it. Russ and his Legion have been through all of that, so the order to them is not unusual. Russ would have no reason to suspect that Horus was tricking him or lying. The Night of the Wolf happened well before Prospero. Not only had Russ fought another legion, he nearly had one of his brothers murder him. Plus most of the slaughter is on Magnus deciding to let most of his legion die out of guilt.
BaconCatBug wrote: As for what the Space Wolves did, despite the Wolves being more and more painted as hypocritical furry fetishists with each passing day by GW, Russ was absolutely and unequivocally in the right. As far as Russ was concerned, Horus was still the Warmaster and loyal to the Emperor, and if the Emperor told Horus to tell Russ "It's time for purge number 3 go do what you were designed for." then that is what Russ would do. Russ had no obligation to show the slightest hint of mercy to Magnus, but he did because that is what brothers do.
Yup, he was "right" if we take definition of "right" from dictionary of the Ethiopian language published in 1893 in order to prove his orders (that were loud and clear to anyone sane with a pair of eyes) didn't include permission to fire pistols in close proximity of the Thousand Sons therefore were totally invalid
Yeah, let's ignore the fact the Emperor ordered Magnus captured, not killed, the fact Malcador outright stated DON'T DO ANYTHING RASH YOU MORON, the fact that Valdor, a man arguably as important as Horus was screaming about censuring, not carpet bombing the whole time, and the fact head Wolfwolf went with orders of the at best fourth important guy ignoring the orders of the top three. Especially seeing the whole operation was purely the matter of Terran policies and Horus had literally nothing to do with it. Also, multiple new sources state battle of Prospero was in fact first real SM/SM fight (that so shocked multiple Primarchs they demanded Russ to be purged in turn, something that wouldn't happen if the fanon about the "other" purges was true) and to make SW treason even worse, Russ composed a treatise on how to best kill loyalist SM after Prospero and handed it to Horus, not giving a copy to any of his loyal brothers.
But I digress. In fact, we can put the blame on someone else. Namely, the Emperor. In his incompetence, when he saw Curze, Mortarion, Russ, Angron and Lorgar, he shown these wild animals completely absurd and pointless mercy, not ordering them shot on the spot, but allowing them to corrupt five fine legions. Had he simply had these barbarians killed, maybe Imperial Heralds or War Hounds would be slightly less efficient in the short term, but in the long one, literally everyone around would be better off and Heresy would not happen (or even if it did, it would be easily contained with loyalist forces). Therefore, the Emperor is to blame for the acts of these deviants, especially in the light of his supposed precognition
All of this is ignoring that Russ and his Legion are the only ones pre heresy who had been called on at least once and possible three times to fight another legion for real. Something that the first few HH novels make clear is something that is so alien that the first time it happens, the marines involved barely know how to process or justify it. Russ and his Legion have been through all of that, so the order to them is not unusual. Russ would have no reason to suspect that Horus was tricking him or lying. The Night of the Wolf happened well before Prospero. Not only had Russ fought another legion, he nearly had one of his brothers murder him. Plus most of the slaughter is on Magnus deciding to let most of his legion die out of guilt.
Also if the job was just to collect magnus and bring him abck peacefully with minimal risk of oppisition, why not use someone like I dunno? the Ultramarinessending the space wolves, given the amnimosity among the Legions was garnteed to make it worse
After the dangerous use of Psychic Powers and exploration of the Warp by the XV Legion, the Council of Nikea ended the Librarius Project and the direct command was given to Magnus and the XV Legion to stop using their Psychic Powers for the safety of the Imperium.
In direct and intentional violation of these decrees, Magnus continued his use of Psychic Powers and then breached the defenses of the Imperial Palace through use of Sorcery. He destroyed the Emperor's Grand Plan for Humanity and opened Terra and the Imperial Palace to invasion by denizens of the Warp. Magnus and the XV Legion committed multiple acts of treason.
The Emperor put Leman Russ and the VI Legion in charge of censuring the XV Legion and bringing Magnus to Terra to face judgement. He had Leman Russ collect his entire legion and seconded to his command elements of his personal guard, the Legio Custodes commanded by Captain-General Constantin Valdor, and forces of the Sisters of Silence.
Leman Russ and the VI Legion know their role in service of the Emperor better than most Legions Astartes. They are the Emperor's Executioners. The ones he calls upon to do the unpleasant task. The ones he'd called upon once, if not twice, to exterminate a Legion Astartes. You don't send your attack dog backed up by your personal guard and a force that is anathema to those they are facing because you expect them to come meekly. You do that because you know there will be blood. Russ knows this and so does the Emperor.
Then Horus sticks his Chaos corrupted self into the picture, as the Emperor's War Master and informs Russ the the orders have been changed. Just kill them. Kill them all, the tells Russ. Russ has no reason to doubt this order comes from the Emperor. It's not like it is an unprecedented order for him. The VI Legion has done this before.
But while Russ may be the Emperor's attack dog, he is not a rabid beast. He reaches out, in his flawed way, to Magnus the Red and ask him to surrender.
And what does he find when he reaches Prospero? Magnus the Red and the XV Legion are hiding from him. No surrender was forthcoming.
So he did his job. Without joy, Leman Russ and the VI Legion went about their business of destroying the XV Legion, starting with anything that got in there way. And when Magnus the Red finally showed his face, Leman Russ took him down. That is the just fate of traitors, who survived only by compounding the failings by joining Chaos to survive their just punishment.
My issue with a lot of the arguments defending the thousand sons is that people were forget that they were turning into literal chaos spawn and hacking people to pieces when they did. They were an extremely dangerous legion at that point.
While on the outside they seemed reasonable and full of heart. They were shown to be entirely corrupted. Magnus damned his legion and himself when he took that deal with Tzeench. His naviety and aggorance cost his soul and his entire legion their bodies, their wills, and their lives.
He damned his world for power to save his sons. While noble showed his naviety and caused his destruction.
Leman Russ arrived at Prospero and tried to contact his brother for parley but.... His entourage of captive Thousand Sons immedately turned into chaos spawn. Showing him, they were truly lost.
Leman Russ could've done more but he had a duty to his men, and to his brother, to put him down. Prospero was damned the minute Magnus contacted Tzeench.
I truly loved Magnus as a character, but we have to be real here Magnus did everything wrong. Its where the joke "Magnus did nothing wrong" comes from. Its making fun of how magnus literally screwed the imperium over with his idioicy (blowing up the psychic defenses of the imperial webway and leading to the deaths of the Custodes, and various others in the construction of the imperial webway .)
After the dangerous use of Psychic Powers and exploration of the Warp by the XV Legion, the Council of Nikea ended the Librarius Project and the direct command was given to Magnus and the XV Legion to stop using their Psychic Powers for the safety of the Imperium.
In direct and intentional violation of these decrees, Magnus continued his use of Psychic Powers and then breached the defenses of the Imperial Palace through use of Sorcery. He destroyed the Emperor's Grand Plan for Humanity and opened Terra and the Imperial Palace to invasion by denizens of the Warp. Magnus and the XV Legion committed multiple acts of treason.
The Emperor put Leman Russ and the VI Legion in charge of censuring the XV Legion and bringing Magnus to Terra to face judgement. He had Leman Russ collect his entire legion and seconded to his command elements of his personal guard, the Legio Custodes commanded by Captain-General Constantin Valdor, and forces of the Sisters of Silence.
Leman Russ and the VI Legion know their role in service of the Emperor better than most Legions Astartes. They are the Emperor's Executioners. The ones he calls upon to do the unpleasant task. The ones he'd called upon once, if not twice, to exterminate a Legion Astartes. You don't send your attack dog backed up by your personal guard and a force that is anathema to those they are facing because you expect them to come meekly. You do that because you know there will be blood. Russ knows this and so does the Emperor.
Then Horus sticks his Chaos corrupted self into the picture, as the Emperor's War Master and informs Russ the the orders have been changed. Just kill them. Kill them all, the tells Russ. Russ has no reason to doubt this order comes from the Emperor. It's not like it is an unprecedented order for him. The VI Legion has done this before.
But while Russ may be the Emperor's attack dog, he is not a rabid beast. He reaches out, in his flawed way, to Magnus the Red and ask him to surrender.
And what does he find when he reaches Prospero? Magnus the Red and the XV Legion are hiding from him. No surrender was forthcoming.
So he did his job. Without joy, Leman Russ and the VI Legion went about their business of destroying the XV Legion, starting with anything that got in there way. And when Magnus the Red finally showed his face, Leman Russ took him down. That is the just fate of traitors, who survived only by compounding the failings by joining Chaos to survive their just punishment.
So when the wolves arrive all full of righteous fury they go straight on the attack,
That is blatantly untrue. Please read the relevant material.
The Space Wolves are a bunch of flea-bitten, mangy beasts who were only too happy to follow Horus's orders, as they already didn't like the TKsons. They followed Horus's orders to the letter, without question (you know, "wipe your brothers out, cuz I said so"; I'm pretty sure if the Marines were told to wipe out the National Guard, they'd go "wait, wtf?!" and ask questions before doing so).
Granted, Magnus disobeyed his father; but he did it to save the Imperium. He disobeyed to save the universe and lost, meanwhile Russ obeyed insane orders to the letter, and lost an entire chapter of marines to Chaos. Bad dog!
The mongrels also have a history of saying "this is bad, but it's okay for us to do cuz we do it differently" in regards to psykers. They're hypocrites, donkey-caves, and they deserved to have Magnus return with a vengeance to wipe out most of their chapter. Too bad he didn't get all of them.
They get literally zero forgiveness. Except on the grounds that I have an awesome Daemon Primarch model. So...I guess there's that!
Ah so thoughtful a piece of prose was never written. Also blatantly wrong. Again read the material. Thousand Sons were already consorting with daemons. They just hadn't realized how corrupted they had become.
Russ, however, being small and furry of mind and slow of wit could not see that the wishes of a brother could not, did not and should not countermand the wishes of his father emperor, and that the very act of trying to countermand them in fact should have placed Horus under a deep shadow of suspicion.
This was compounded by Russ' barbaric and insatiable blood-lust - which is to say that a lower creature, such as him, cannot fairly be held to the same standards of reason, honour and word given as can the average human. Therefore, while his actions and that of his pack of rabid dogs cannot be 'defended', they can at least be excused as the effect of brutal and instinctive minds. You might as well blame the sea for rising - it has no self control or reason.
Think that about sums it up?
I think it shows that maybe you need to simplify things then insult and make caricatures of things you don't like for some reason.
Actually, I did read A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. Having read the source material, I’m glad Magnus came back as a Daemon Primarch to skin the furries. Bloody well deserved it. Damn “Team Jacob” apologists...
This pretty much sums up peoples usual opinions on the matter. Its either 'Russ was just following orders that suited his preferences', or 'Magnus did nuh-thing rong and btwSW players have a furry fetish'.
When it comes to whose fault everything was... it was the Word Bearers continuing their debased practises in spite of the harshest censure and basic instruction possible, and Horus for believing the lies they thrust upon him in turn. Everything after that was a mix of unhappy circumstance, Big-E negligence and 'Chaos did it'.
Elbows wrote: Eh, Space Wolves have been made out to me (at least in the HH books) to basically be the stereotypical "I was only following orders" goons you see in a lot of silly military movies. While it's a reasonable excuse for a lot of stuff, it makes the Space Wolves one of the most shallow and uninteresting factions in HH.
unfortunately Space Wolves fluff in general, despite having some of the coolest potential, is broadly across the board so poorly written, contradictory, ridiculous, and incoherent that its among the worst across GW's IP portfolio, both during the HH and the 41st millenium.
BrianDavion wrote: I disagree. some of the latest space wolf stuff is pretty good.
How new? I'll confess I haven't read anything in the last couple of years so newer stuff may be better.
Between the 5E SW codex, the HH books, and FW's SW stuff, that was all painfully stupid and just poorly written, and particularly when taken as a whole is so contradictory it hurts.
The OP was about who was at fault for the destruction of Prospero, so discussions of SW hypocrisy about rune priests vs. librarians is irrelevant.
I think alextroy has summarized the primary points very well.
I would add that this was again confirmed in Ashes of Prospero when Bulveye is reminded by one of his wolfguard that the order to kill Magnus came from Horus. Since Njal has informed them that it was Horus who was the real traitor they realize they were misled.
The primary fault for the destruction of Prospero lies with Horus. Even believing he was supposed to kill Magnus, Russ still tried to get Magnus to surrender.
I cannot understand the mentality of Magnus in this. After bursting into the throne room from the webway, the emperor contacted his mind and revealed the purpose of the secret project and his role within that project.
He saw the destruction he had wrought.
He would have known that the Emperor could have used his help to save the project.
He know the purpose of the Space Wolves, so he had to know what was coming.
But despite his great genius he chose to sulk and allow his world to be destroyed instead of being proactive. He should have contacted Russ and Valdor the moment they entered the system and surrendered to them. Tell them what happened and why.
BrianDavion wrote: I disagree. some of the latest space wolf stuff is pretty good.
How new? I'll confess I haven't read anything in the last couple of years so newer stuff may be better.
Between the 5E SW codex, the HH books, and FW's SW stuff, that was all painfully stupid and just poorly written, and particularly when taken as a whole is so contradictory it hurts.
As opposed to any other bit of 40k lore?
The latest codex is actually pretty good and really addresses the "growing pains" of introducing Primaris Marines quite well. Much better then Codex Space Marines did.
I've also enjoyed most of the HH space wolf fiction (Prosperio burns had some weird moments, but a lot of that was due to the nature of the narraitive. that book was the ultimate in unreliable narriation)
SetantaSilvermane wrote: I cannot understand the mentality of Magnus in this. After bursting into the throne room from the webway, the emperor contacted his mind and revealed the purpose of the secret project and his role within that project.
He saw the destruction he had wrought.
He would have known that the Emperor could have used his help to save the project.
He know the purpose of the Space Wolves, so he had to know what was coming.
But despite his great genius he chose to sulk and allow his world to be destroyed instead of being proactive. He should have contacted Russ and Valdor the moment they entered the system and surrendered to them. Tell them what happened and why.
Magnus intended to die. He intended to have the entire Thousand Sons Legion die with him. Magnus's defining characteristic is hubris. He thought he was more knowledge, powerful, and wily than both the Emperor and the Denizens of the Warp. He thought he had put one over on the Chaos Gods to protect his legion from the Flesh Curse. He thought he could show the Emperor that he know better. And he was fatally wrong on both points.
And so, he decided that it was best of both he and the legion died. He opened Prospero to attack and clouded the vision of the Thousand Sons to prevent them form seeing the impending attack. He then hid away to allow the slaughter of all he loved, knowing that if he saw what was happening he would intervene.
And so it was not until the final hour that he finally took the field, after the destruction of the Prospero, the sacking Tizca, and the death of the vast majority of his Legion. Once again, his hubris prevented him from seeing his intended path to the end.
BaconCatBug wrote: As for what the Space Wolves did, despite the Wolves being more and more painted as hypocritical furry fetishists with each passing day by GW, Russ was absolutely and unequivocally in the right. As far as Russ was concerned, Horus was still the Warmaster and loyal to the Emperor, and if the Emperor told Horus to tell Russ "It's time for purge number 3 go do what you were designed for." then that is what Russ would do. Russ had no obligation to show the slightest hint of mercy to Magnus, but he did because that is what brothers do.
No. The emperor told Russ to go to Prospero and arrest Magnus and disarm the thousand sons. He was to bring Magnus to Terra to stand trial. On his way Horus contacted him and said "the emperor changed his mind, kill Magnus and kill all of the Thousand Sons." Russ thought to himself it was odd that his orders were being changed, but due to his and Valdor's utter hatred for Magnus (Magnus got a lot of custodes killed) they didn't think about these new orders too hard. They wanted to kill Magnus and burn Prospero, and Horus gave them an excuse that was too good to pass up.
Russ also targeted the civilian population for termination and also burned all of the libraries despite not being ordered to do either of those things by either the Emperor OR Horus. Russ was always itching for an excuse to fight Magnus and Horus used that to his advantage to turn a legion to chaos and sow confusion. The fact that Russ was manipulated so easily is all on him.
The attack was so needlessly brutal that many of the other legions thought that Russ turned traitor. The White Scars and Blood Angels (the two legions friendliest towards the Thousand Sons) were gearing up for a retaliatory campaign against the wolves until Khan went to Prospero to figure out what happened.
Magnus wasn't squeaky clean by a long shot either, but the Wolves were NOT the good guys on Prospero. Russ never felt bad about it because he is Russ and he never feels bad about anything. But... it was always my impression that many of the rune priests and higher ranking Space Wolves always secretly believed deep down that they behaved dishonorably on that day, and that the Burning of Prospero was a stain on the otherwise glorious history of the legion. They would never say that to Russ' face of course, except for maybe Bjorn. Bjorn never gave a gak what Russ thought about him.
SetantaSilvermane wrote: Even believing he was supposed to kill Magnus, Russ still tried to get Magnus to surrender.
It was more of a "surrender yourself for execution and I may take it easy on your planet". When Russ didn't get a response he went ape because he thought Magnus was ignoring him.
SetantaSilvermane wrote: But despite his great genius he chose to sulk and allow his world to be destroyed instead of being proactive. He should have contacted Russ and Valdor the moment they entered the system and surrendered to them. Tell them what happened and why.
The Space Wolves started shooting the moment they entered orbit. There was no chance to contact Russ over conventional channels because Russ thought that Magnus had already refused his surrender demand. Try surrendering to a Navy Seal team that bursts into your house and starts shooting everyone and see how that goes. Russ was never known to be one to sit back and calmly listen to explanations about things he had no way of comprehending.
Magnus also felt somewhat that he SHOULD die for what he did. He had just ruined centuries of work by the emperor and possibly destroyed humanity's best chance of defeating chaos. You don't come back from that, and there was no "fixing" that. Magnus knew that he would either be executed or imprisoned indefinitely by the emperor and he saw death at the hands of the wolves as a preferable alternative. Turning off the orbital defenses and keeping the Space Wolf fleet a secret until right up before the attack was his last little way of proving his loyalty until right up to the end.
BrianDavion wrote: I disagree. some of the latest space wolf stuff is pretty good.
How new? I'll confess I haven't read anything in the last couple of years so newer stuff may be better.
Between the 5E SW codex, the HH books, and FW's SW stuff, that was all painfully stupid and just poorly written, and particularly when taken as a whole is so contradictory it hurts.
As opposed to any other bit of 40k lore?
I mean, there's some bad 40k fluff (the Militarum Tempestus codex and it's "Hostel/Saw's interpretation of Hogwarts" vision of the Schola for example), but even for 40k there was a lot of awful stuff in there. Overboard wolf motifs, absurd characteriziations of things like firing artillery by smell then rushing forward to go see the results, etc. I guess mostly in that, even poor writing aside, they just can't seem to actually decide on what they want to be, in multiple different respects. Their range of looney-cartoony to deadly-serious didn't mesh well the way it's presented, like a kid that insists their make-believe superhero has every superpower
The latest codex is actually pretty good and really addresses the "growing pains" of introducing Primaris Marines quite well. Much better then Codex Space Marines did.
honestly people are IMHO too hung up on thunder wolf cavlary. looking at the space wolf codex in it's entrity they have... (not counting special characters) 64 units. of these you have a grand total of 3 that are wolves, and 2 more that are "totally not werewolves" weapon wise for all the mockery they have a SINGLE weapon that refers to wolves. (wolf claws) and the raven guard have a pattern of lighting claw called "raven's talons" so they're hardly unique in that regard.
honestly people are IMHO too hung up on thunder wolf cavlary. looking at the space wolf codex in it's entrity they have... (not counting special characters) 64 units. of these you have a grand total of 3 that are wolves, and 2 more that are "totally not werewolves" weapon wise for all the mockery they have a SINGLE weapon that refers to wolves. (wolf claws) and the raven guard have a pattern of lighting claw called "raven's talons" so they're hardly unique in that regard.
It was much worse before when I could have a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Wolves and Wolf Claws and a Wolf tooth necklace and Wolf talisman. GW needs to use words that aren't wolf.
honestly people are IMHO too hung up on thunder wolf cavlary. looking at the space wolf codex in it's entrity they have... (not counting special characters) 64 units. of these you have a grand total of 3 that are wolves, and 2 more that are "totally not werewolves" weapon wise for all the mockery they have a SINGLE weapon that refers to wolves. (wolf claws) and the raven guard have a pattern of lighting claw called "raven's talons" so they're hardly unique in that regard.
It was much worse before when I could have a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Wolves and Wolf Claws and a Wolf tooth necklace and Wolf talisman. GW needs to use words that aren't wolf.
I truly loved Magnus as a character, but we have to be real here Magnus did everything wrong. Its where the joke "Magnus did nothing wrong" comes from. Its making fun of how magnus literally screwed the imperium over with his idioicy (blowing up the psychic defenses of the imperial webway and leading to the deaths of the Custodes, and various others in the construction of the imperial webway .)
Nobody disagrees that Magnus screwed up. Everyone knows he made a mistake. The furry apologists just can’t accept that Russ’s curs were bloodthirsty psychopaths who eagerly accepted the order to kill their brothers instead of just capturing them.
Can you explain how you capture superhuman psyker marines corrupted by chaos gods, that are armed with the best weapons and armor the Imperium has to offer, while they are turning into mutated chaos monsters?
Would you offer them chocolate? Does chocolate have the necessary disarming effect to placate a savage chaos monster?
Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.
timetowaste85 wrote: Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.
Giving up would be surrendering. Magnus did not surrender.
timetowaste85 wrote: Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.
Giving up would be surrendering. Magnus did not surrender.
Nah, he was suiciding by cop basically. He knew the emperor was either going to have him executed or imprisoned indefinitely for what he did, and he was so distraught over it he thought letting the space wolves kill him was the better option. As for "surrendering and coming out with his hands up"... that was never really an option once the wolves started shooting (which they did the second they arrived, believing their previous surrender demand was being ignored when in reality it never reached Magnus).
The wolves wouldn't have just stopped shooting even if they had Magnus in custody, they thought their orders were to kill the entire legion. Killing the entire civilian populace was just sheer bloodlust (they were not ordered to do that by either the Emperor OR Horus), and burning the libraries was "pissing on the body afterwards" so to speak.
timetowaste85 wrote: Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.
Giving up would be surrendering. Magnus did not surrender.
Nah, he was suiciding by cop basically. He knew the emperor was either going to have him executed or imprisoned indefinitely for what he did, and he was so distraught over it he thought letting the space wolves kill him was the better option. As for "surrendering and coming out with his hands up"... that was never really an option once the wolves started shooting (which they did the second they arrived, believing their previous surrender demand was being ignored when in reality it never reached Magnus).
The wolves wouldn't have just stopped shooting even if they had Magnus in custody, they thought their orders were to kill the entire legion. Killing the entire civilian populace was just sheer bloodlust (they were not ordered to do that by either the Emperor OR Horus), and burning the libraries was "pissing on the body afterwards" so to speak.
except that the 1k sons stored all their knowledge, knowledge that was deemed "bad" in the libraries, and had been teaching the civilian population.
BrianDavion wrote: except that the 1k sons stored all their knowledge, knowledge that was deemed "bad" in the libraries, and had been teaching the civilian population.
Deemed "bad" by whom? The wolves? That was not their decision to make.
Neither the emperor nor Horus told them to burn the libraries, that was something they did extrajudiciously because they had a long-standing grudge against the 1K sons hoarding knowledge that they considered "bad". Same thing with the civilian population. They don't just get to decide they want to slaughter a whole planet worth of people because they don't like them. Both Perturabo and Curze conducted bloody genocides of their home planets (which were in open rebellion) and were called war criminals for it, but when the Wolves do it on a peaceful planet despite having no orders to it's perfectly acceptable?
Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
Mr Morden wrote: My only problem with the 30k Wolves (*) is the "we don't use the warp" and that no one of importance calls them out on this at the time.
By the above statement - both Legions should have been destroyed.
(*) the completely flanderised remnants that are the 40k ones are a different matter
The Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels all broke the council of nikaea after the heresy. The difference though is that Magnus was using sorcery and destroyed the Imperiums future with that decision. The Wolves were continued with their use of the warp because of their belief that there use was pure, no one did anything about it because Nikaea was obviously for Magnus, Nikaea only happened because Magnus and his legion were using sorcery, the Emperor was probably keeping up appearances of fairness by banning them all from using the powers,
Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
And the Whispering towers already knew about Horus' betrayal before Magnus broke into the webway. His arrogance and incapability of being humble or wise cased all this. All he had to do was do what the emperor told him. He was like a child and his abilities were just a toy, incapable of knowing his limits.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
And the Whispering towers already knew about Horus' betrayal before Magnus broke into the webway. His arrogance and incapability of being humble or wise cased all this. All he had to do was do what the emperor told him. He was like a child and his abilities were just a toy, incapable of knowing his limits.
This, Magnus through careful manipulation and his own arrogance doomed humanity to forever rely on warp travel. He essentially doomed his legion from the beginning by making increasingly bad deals with warp entities.
Mr Morden wrote: My only problem with the 30k Wolves (*) is the "we don't use the warp" and that no one of importance calls them out on this at the time.
By the above statement - both Legions should have been destroyed.
(*) the completely flanderised remnants that are the 40k ones are a different matter
Wolfsbane actually does have another Primarch call Russ out on this.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
And the Whispering towers already knew about Horus' betrayal before Magnus broke into the webway. His arrogance and incapability of being humble or wise cased all this. All he had to do was do what the emperor told him. He was like a child and his abilities were just a toy, incapable of knowing his limits.
In Magnus's defense, when the threat is "your brother is going to literally destroy the universe", and daddy is the only one who can stop it but he's locked himself up somewhere and doesn't want to talk to anyone or tell you what he is doing, going to great lengths to transmit that message isn't unreasonable from Magnus' position.
The Emperor's inability to manage his projects and keep his staff informed is not Magnus' fault. Magnus was ignorant, but he was intentionally kept so. Blaming him when he's trying to raise an urgent alarm about a threat to literal reality itself is a wee bit silly
Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
The space wolves were lied to by Horus, who wanted to give the the thousand sons a reason to join his cause.
And even though I am a thousand sons player and identify with my blue space nerds, the truth is that the space wolves were kind of in the right. Da Emprah said to stop mucking about with the warp or suffer grave consequences, but nerds do so love their books.
So, while the thousand sons were chastised perhaps a trifle harshly, it wasn't really the space wolves fault either. They were deliberately misled by Horus, who used the enmity between the chapters for his benefit.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
Dad was pretty much an emotionally distant jerk who didn't understand human emotions or care otherwise.
I mean his final plan for the Primarchs when he was done with the crusade was to stuff them deep underground in their own personal rooms in the palace, essentially gilded cages created just for them.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
Dad was pretty much an emotionally distant jerk who didn't understand human emotions or care otherwise.
I mean his final plan for the Primarchs when he was done with the crusade was to stuff them deep underground in their own personal rooms in the palace, essentially gilded cages created just for them.
Father of the year the Emperor is not.
Source?
I can see the Emperor being that dumb but I'd rather he wasn't.
I don't really need to defend Russ' actions when even Magnus the Red himself is on record of stating that the Space Wolves are blameless for what happened on Prospero.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
Dad was pretty much an emotionally distant jerk who didn't understand human emotions or care otherwise.
I mean his final plan for the Primarchs when he was done with the crusade was to stuff them deep underground in their own personal rooms in the palace, essentially gilded cages created just for them.
Father of the year the Emperor is not.
Source?
I can see the Emperor being that dumb but I'd rather he wasn't.
I can't remember the exact source, it might have been Deliverance lost. where someone, Corax I THINK, saw a collection of apartments and concluded they where set aside for the primarchs retirement. thinking on it though what if those had been intended for them to grow up in if the primarchs hadn't been scattered?
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't really need to defend Russ' actions when even Magnus the Red himself is on record of stating that the Space Wolves are blameless for what happened on Prospero.
Magnus kind of has a history of blaming himself for everything. I think if you were to ask, say, Ahriman, he would have a very different opinion on the Space Wolves' actions.
Yes, but no one would care about what Ahriman has to say when at odds with Magnus. Magnus knows the Emperor and also knows how he thinks, Ahriman does not. Magnus knows Russ and Horus, Ahriman does not. By virtue of being Magnus and a Primarch the gulf between what Ahriman can understand with his limited perspective of the events and Magnus is infinite. It's like taking a child's narrative of an event and holding it to the same degree as a police officer's.
Furthermore, Magnus is not blaming himself when he says that Russ did nothing wrong, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.
You're massively overrating the primarchs and the Emperor. For one, nobody understood the motivations of the Emperor because the Emperor's motivations were absolutely stupid and if the primarchs knew about them they would have all joined Horus. Everything the Emperor did, including turning the loyalist legions against the Thousand Sons through Nikaea, was moving towards the ultimate goal of the extermination of the legions so he could replace them with his preferred banana boys. The deific separation from humanity that the Emperor and the primarchs have is far more weakness than strength, and it's quite clear throughout the entire arc of the Thousand Sons that Ahriman is the superior representative of the legion's ideals compared to Magnus.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
Do we know exactly what Horus said to Russ when he was dispatched? I'd say that's a HUUUGE piece of missing info if not, info that may have made the extreme actions on Prosperio make PERFECT sense.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
Wrong, Russ did not want to do what he did, Magnus even admitted to such.
"‘I don’t want to upset my brother,’ replied Russ.
‘Why? What might he do?’ asked Hawser, swallowing hard. The question he’d really wanted to ask
was, who is your brother?
‘Something stupid that we’d all regret for a damned long time,’ said Russ. ‘We’re just here to make
sure he arrives at the right decision. And if he doesn’t, we’re here to make sure the repercussions of
the wrong decision are restricted to a bare minimum.’
‘You’re talking about another primarch,’said Hawser.
‘Yes, I am.’
‘You’re talking about taking arms against another primarch?’
‘Yes. If needs be. Funny, I always seem to get the dirty jobs.’
The Wolf King rose to his feet and stretched.
‘The moment you came in here, ser,’ Russ said, mocking Hawser’s use of the honorific, ‘the
scramble-your-guts sisters blocked whatever was playing with your head. I’d be very interested to
know who was handling you.’ Russ at Nikaea even after Magnus killed his men, Russ never wanted to do what he did.
"It is also a lament. This was a sad necessity regretted by all. It gave no pleasure to perform it, not
even the reward of glory. The prosecution of a fellow Legion, even when it is done so successfully, is
no easy thing to square in a man’s mind. This has ever been the burden of the Wolves of the Sixth
Astartes that their calling as the Allfather’s chosen hunters places a solemn burden of responsibility
on their shoulders greater than any endured by other Legions. There is no shame in admitting this is an
account of sorrow, a mournful thing. It is an account we could happily wash away from our memories
and wish undone" Ogvai
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
Do we know exactly what Horus said to Russ when he was dispatched? I'd say that's a HUUUGE piece of missing info if not, info that may have made the extreme actions on Prosperio make PERFECT sense.
It was an astropathic message, so it would have been pretty simple and direct.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ at Nikaea even after Magnus killed his men, Russ never wanted to do what he did.
Firstly, that quote is from BEFORE the wolves attacked Prospero and has nothing to do with their attitude as they were attacking the planet. Secondly, it doesn't show that Russ never wanted to attack the thousand sons, he merely said it was a "dirty business" but actually seems pretty nonchalant about the entire thing, which makes sense considering he has done it before.
There are numerous lore examples of Russ basically saying: "Fethers on Prospero deserved what they got" pretty much every time he was asked about the incident, and only seemed mad about the fact that Horus tricked him into it. Russ was almost totally unrepentant about the entire thing. Only the rune priests and some of the higher up space wolf officers seemed to show any kind of remorse, and even then they never said anything to Russ' face. When Dorn confronts Russ about his hypocrisy with using rune priests and accepting the use of psykers after the Seige of Terra despite being so against it at the council of Nikaea and basically genociding Prospero for doing the same thing, Russ flies into a rage and attacks Dorn IIRC.
Lastly, the fact that Russ was not ordered to kill civilians by either Horus nor the Emperor and yet he still did it anyway seems like pretty damning evidence that he "wanted" to do it. What other reason would he have for doing it?
EDIT: Remember, the attack was so needlessly brutal that both Sanguinius and Khan were ready to attack the wolves straight up. Even after finding out the truth, Khan still had a hard time believing that the orders (supposedly) came from the emperor because there is no way in hell (in Khan's mind) that the emperor would ever order something like that.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ at Nikaea even after Magnus killed his men, Russ never wanted to do what he did.
Firstly, that quote is from BEFORE the wolves attacked Prospero and has nothing to do with their attitude as they were attacking the planet. Secondly, it doesn't show that Russ never wanted to attack the thousand sons, he merely said it was a "dirty business" but actually seems pretty nonchalant about the entire thing.
There are numerous lore examples of Russ basically saying: "Fethers on Prospero deserved what they got" pretty much every time he was asked about the incident, and only seemed mad about the fact that Horus tricked him into it. Russ was almost totally unrepentant about the entire incident. Only the rune priests and some of the higher up space wolf officers seemed to show any kind of remorse, and even then they never said anything to Russ' face. When Dorn confronts Russ about his hypocrisy with using rune priests and accepting the use of psykers after the Seige of Terra Russ flies into a rage and attacks Dorn IIRC.
Lastly, the fact that Russ was not ordered to kill civilians by either Horus nor the Emperor and yet he still did it anyway seems like pretty damning evidence that he "wanted" to do it. What other reason would he have for doing it?
Yeah because I stated that quote was during Nikaea, but it shows he doesn't just irrationally hate Magnus. Show one quote where Russ said they got what they deserved. Magnus knew himself that Russ didn't want to do it, he said so. He even said that he wanted to limit the extent of sanctions against Magnus. Even if Russ hated him and wanted to kill him, its still irrelevant, he would have done what he did regardless of wanting it or not, Horus was the one that did it, Russ and the VI were just the tool.
w1zard wrote: When Dorn confronts Russ about his hypocrisy with using rune priests and accepting the use of psykers after the Seige of Terra despite being so against it at the council of Nikaea and basically genociding Prospero for doing the same thing, Russ flies into a rage and attacks Dorn IIRC.
.
err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
Spoiler:
‘You think me a fool, brother?’ said Russ, with dangerous innocence.
‘I think you are reckless. I think you are in danger of treading the same road as Magnus, or Lorgar, cavorting with priests. Where has your conviction gone? Where is the wolf who spoke at Nikaea?’
This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. ‘Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?’
‘You express regret for that now?’ said Dorn. ‘Last I heard you were crowing about it.‘
I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did. When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus’ sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.
Dorn sighed sadly, and looked down at his slate of plans. ‘And that is Magnus Talking'
‘Perhaps,’ said Russ honestly. ‘But I was not wrong to call for Magnus’ sanction, nor was I wrong to call for the suppression of the Librarius as it was. Who knows where Magnus’ path would have led had he been let alone? He might have won the war, but would we then have had another Horus to contend with, or maybe two? The Librarius could have proven as poisonous as the thrice-damned lodges.’
‘The great proponent of the Nikaean edict, who kept his own sorcerers. You have many qualities, my brother,’ said Dorn. ‘I never thought to say hypocrisy was one
.‘Is it? The priests of my Legion and the Stormseers of Jaghatai’s are different to the Librarians that were. Our warriors draw on an older tradition. A limited tradition. Magnus did not believe in limits. That was his error.’
‘Similar traditions were outlawed by our father on every world,’ said Dorn hotly.
‘We have seen where His close-mouthedness on the matter of the warp has got us,’ Russ scoffed
Sanguinius made a silent gesture of agreement.
‘Leman is right,’ said the Khan. ‘Our seers do not draw directly on the warp. Their gifts are mediated. We know what limits are.’
‘Limits on power?’ said Dorn. ‘Power has no limits. Every morsel of power engenders more hunger. It is never satisfied. A man’s soul needs to be a fortress.’
‘Not limits of power, Rogal,’ said Jaghatai. ‘Our limits are those of human wisdom. You look for enlightenment in the wrong place. Wisdom is the limit that must be observed.’
‘So now humility can tame the powers of the warp,’ said Dorn. ‘This is ridiculous.’
‘Humility is one of the ways,’ said Jaghatai. ‘Our father is a psyker, so is Sanguinius, and Malcador.’
‘The enemy fears the warp as much as they plunge themselves into it,’ said Leman Russ. ‘We must use it,’ he held up his hands, ‘safely, to help us win this war
‘I still name you hypocrite. How can you stand it, Jaghatai? He opposed you at Nikaea.’
‘That was then, this is now. Dwelling on the past will solve nothing,’ said the Khan. ‘We must stand united.
So no, he did NOT fly into a rage. and IMHO this passage is proably the best summery of Russ' views on Warp craft. My apology for the massive quote, but in this case I think it's partiuclarly revealing with regards to the subject at hand.
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
except they didn't know he'd turned to Chaos at the time, Magnus had basicly dissappered from the galaxy as far as they all knew at the time.
now that said, what Russ says on Psykers is intreasting, as it basicly amounts to "our psykers had some time honored skills and abilities they knew, ones that by virtue of long practice we're comfortable are safe. Magnus meanwhile pushed the limits and went into areas fo warp craft best untouched" I say this is intreasting as this seems to be the Imperium's view on Psykers, such as the Librarius in M 41. so it would seem this nuanced "psykers but only within approved limits" view is the one that did indeed catch on.
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
except they didn't know he'd turned to Chaos at the time, Magnus had basicly dissappered from the galaxy as far as they all knew at the time.
now that said, what Russ says on Psykers is intreasting, as it basicly amounts to "our psykers had some time honored skills and abilities they knew, ones that by virtue of long practice we're comfortable are safe. Magnus meanwhile pushed the limits and went into areas fo warp craft best untouched" I say this is intreasting as this seems to be the Imperium's view on Psykers, such as the Librarius in M 41. so it would seem this nuanced "psykers but only within approved limits" view is the one that did indeed catch on.
TapedTempest wrote: As the title suggests, I intend for this to be some sort of "writing challenge". From what I've seen, most people believe that the Thousand Sons were at no fault and were purely victims. Most evidence that I've seen supports this argument, which is what makes defending this side of the argument a bit challenging. The purpose of this "challenge" is to use evidence and logic to defend the Space Wolves for the destruction of Prospero and the Thousand Sons, and although at first you may not believe in what you're writing, you and those who read your argument may come to a new way of thinking.
Good luck and have fun!
(Note: This isn't meant to be a debate about whether the Space Wolves were right or wrong, but a persuasive argument. That said, I do encourage disputing points for the purpose of further understanding on the subject.)
Yes.
Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.
Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
Magnus only turned to chaos because of the Battle of Prospero. It is true that he had been UNWITTINGLY serving chaos the entire time, but if Russ arrested him and brought him to Terra like the Emperor wanted, the Thousand Sons and by extension Magnus, might have never fallen to chaos.
Magnus was forced into embracing chaos because the only other option was letting Russ execute him and genocide everything he had ever known and loved. Are you seriously saying that Magnus being forced into the service of chaos justifies the very atrocities that forced him into the service of chaos in the first place?
That's like me attacking you with a knife, you defending yourself, and then I kill you and call it "self-defense".
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
Magnus only turned to chaos because of the Battle of Prospero. It is true that he had been UNWITTINGLY serving chaos the entire time, but if Russ arrested him and brought him to Terra like the Emperor wanted, the Thousand Sons and by extension Magnus, might have never fallen to chaos.
Magnus was forced into embracing chaos because the only other option was letting Russ execute him and genocide everything he had ever known and loved. Are you seriously saying that Magnus being forced into the service of chaos justifies the very atrocities that forced him into the service of chaos in the first place?
That's like me attacking you with a knife, you defending yourself, and then I kill you and call it "self-defense".
Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor. He used sorcery even after the daemon told him that he had bargained away his soul.
Deadshot wrote: Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.
Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.
If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.
Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.
Deadshot wrote: Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.
Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.
If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.
Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.
Horus was not a Colonel, he had full athourity when it came to the great crusade. Why on earth would he not follow Horus' plan, he had no idea of the treachery.
"Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down" complete conjecture, no lore to back that up at all.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.
Magnus was faced with a choice:
-Turn to chaos
OR
-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders
I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.
Magnus was faced with a choice:
-Turn to chaos
OR
-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders
I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.
And he should have took the later, look at him now.
What is complete conjecture? The fact that Primarchs aren't just allowed to glass Imperial planets whenever they want? Lol ask Curze and Perturabo about that, at least they had the excuse their planets were in open rebellion.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.
Magnus was faced with a choice:
-Turn to chaos
OR
-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders
I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.
He was very happy with option 2 otherwise he wouldn't have done so much to allow the Wolves to attack Prospero easily. If Magnus wanted to avoid the Burning of Prospero he could have done a fair bit to avoid it.
What is complete conjecture? The fact that Primarchs aren't just allowed to glass Imperial planets whenever they want? Lol ask Curze and Perturabo about that, at least they had the excuse their planets were in open rebellion.
I don't hate the thousand sons, I actually like them, I love Ahriman as a character, apart from when he became slave to Gzrel, allowing himself to be humiliated etc. I hate Magnus, he has no redeemable characteristics, he was a big arrogant child. You are the biased one, to say Russ is at fault is just fantasy.
"Horus was still second in command to the Emperor, and the Emperor gave Russ an order to arrest Magnus, not kill him." completely irrelevant.
Yeah, let's ignore the fact the Emperor ordered Magnus captured, not killed, the fact Malcador outright stated DON'T DO ANYTHING RASH YOU MORON, the fact that Valdor, a man arguably as important as Horus was screaming about censuring, not carpet bombing the whole time, and the fact head Wolfwolf went with orders of the at best fourth important guy ignoring the orders of the top three.
That is simply incorrect. Horus speaks with the Emperor's authority, neither Malcador or Valdor can countermand him.
"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.
Magnus was faced with a choice:
-Turn to chaos
OR
-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders
I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.
Option 3
He tells his people what he had done, warns them of the inherent dangers of the sorcery they are undertaking, what the familiars really are and surrenders himself and his Legion to the oncoming fleet as they approach.
What he actually does is condemn all to death on his planet without them knowing and watches them all burn even when they are sceaming for him to help.
Deadshot wrote: Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.
Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.
If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.
Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.
Horus was not a Colonel, he was Warmaster, with complete authority. The Emperor's favourite, the Emperor's right-hand man, the most charismatic and trustworthy being in the Imperium. He would never contradict the Emperor. He would never betray the Emperor. The very idea of Horus turning from the Emperor was unfathomable. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Horus' orders were the Emperor's orders.
As said before, there was already precedent, with several instances include Prospero Burns suggesting that the Emperor had had him do similar things before. There was absolutely no reason to question the order.
Whether he wanted to fight or not makes no difference, he followed orders from the highest power there is.
If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.
Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.
Horus was not a Colonel, he was Warmaster, with complete authority. The Emperor's favourite, the Emperor's right-hand man, the most charismatic and trustworthy being in the Imperium. He would never contradict the Emperor. He would never betray the Emperor. The very idea of Horus turning from the Emperor was unfathomable. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Horus' orders were the Emperor's orders.
As said before, there was already precedent, with several instances include Prospero Burns suggesting that the Emperor had had him do similar things before. There was absolutely no reason to question the order.
Whether he wanted to fight or not makes no difference, he followed orders from the highest power there is.
Quite - the Emperor tells him to do something that has never (as far as we know) been done before: arresting a primarch. Then Horus (who speaks with the emperor's authority) amends that to less arrest and more slaughter which Russ has been told to do twice before.
Also consider what the stated penalty for sorcery was at Nikea:
"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
From Russ's point of view the first order was the weird one, not Horus's addendum.
Really, the Emperor set the stage for this happening by threatening a punishment that he wasn't prepared to carry out (bad parenting 101).
If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.
Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.
Horus was not a Colonel, he was Warmaster, with complete authority. The Emperor's favourite, the Emperor's right-hand man, the most charismatic and trustworthy being in the Imperium. He would never contradict the Emperor. He would never betray the Emperor. The very idea of Horus turning from the Emperor was unfathomable. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Horus' orders were the Emperor's orders.
As said before, there was already precedent, with several instances include Prospero Burns suggesting that the Emperor had had him do similar things before. There was absolutely no reason to question the order.
Whether he wanted to fight or not makes no difference, he followed orders from the highest power there is.
Quite - the Emperor tells him to do something that has never (as far as we know) been done before: arresting a primarch. Then Horus (who speaks with the emperor's authority) amends that to less arrest and more slaughter which Russ has been told to do twice before.
Also consider what the stated penalty for sorcery was at Nikea:
"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
From Russ's point of view the first order was the weird one, not Horus's addendum.
Really, the Emperor set the stage for this happening by threatening a punishment that he wasn't prepared to carry out (bad parenting 101).
I will make one small correction in that Konrad Curze had been arrested and was on his way to Terra to face trial at the time of the Heresy outbreak. However, apart from that, pretty much nailed it.
The Thousand Sons, more than any other legion have furthered the downfall of humanity. Both in the past and present. The current galactic severance is a direct result of the 1ksons machinations and warp rituals. They have also destroyed much of the Fenris system and left the SW's in tatters.
Magnus and his ilk are not tragic victims. Magnus directly disobeyed the censur orders of Nikea.
But also, the space wolves are not to be free from blame. By falling to the warmasters manipulations he doomed the future of humanity. Russ was the hammer that forged Magnus on the anvil of prospero. Russ, more than any other directly or indirectly (besides Magnus) doomed humanity by not questioning orders or taking more than a brief moment to find out why his orders of surrender were not being answered.
In the end, I do not think it is possible to do what the OP has asked. Both Magnus and Russ are twerps who doomed untold TRILLIONS of lives.
He tells his people what he had done, warns them of the inherent dangers of the sorcery they are undertaking, what the familiars really are and surrenders himself and his Legion to the oncoming fleet as they approach.
What he actually does is condemn all to death on his planet without them knowing and watches them all burn even when they are sceaming for him to help.
The destruciton of Prospero is all his fault.
Exactly.
Magnus could have prepared Prospero for war and when down fighting like a true warrior.
Magnus could have assembled his legion at a parade ground and voxxed his and their surrender to Leman Russ the moment the Censure Fleet left the Warp.
But instead Magnus picked the worst option: botched suicide by Space Wolves.
And some people seem to forget just how the Great Crusade was waged. Exterminatus of populations was not an unprecedented event. Aliens, those too alien influenced, those to religious, and those unwilling to accept the Imperial Truth received various forms of Exterminatus. Given this, the idea of Exterminatus on Prospero just isn't that shocking an action for a Primarch, who destroyed a Legion or two (and possibility the Primarchs to go with them), who was told:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Simply put, the Emperor said, "I don't care how you do it or what you destroy doing it, bring me Magnus."
He tells his people what he had done, warns them of the inherent dangers of the sorcery they are undertaking, what the familiars really are and surrenders himself and his Legion to the oncoming fleet as they approach.
What he actually does is condemn all to death on his planet without them knowing and watches them all burn even when they are sceaming for him to help.
The destruciton of Prospero is all his fault.
Exactly.
Magnus could have prepared Prospero for war and when down fighting like a true warrior.
Magnus could have assembled his legion at a parade ground and voxxed his and their surrender to Leman Russ the moment the Censure Fleet left the Warp.
But instead Magnus picked the worst option: botched suicide by Space Wolves.
And some people seem to forget just how the Great Crusade was waged. Exterminatus of populations was not an unprecedented event. Aliens, those too alien influenced, those to religious, and those unwilling to accept the Imperial Truth received various forms of Exterminatus. Given this, the idea of Exterminatus on Prospero just isn't that shocking an action for a Primarch, who destroyed a Legion or two (and possibility the Primarchs to go with them), who was told:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Simply put, the Emperor said, "I don't care how you do it or what you destroy doing it, bring me Magnus."
Its not all the fault of Magnus. But he is to blame for a good amount. Russ was a unthinking attack dog to quick to fight and serious problem thinking for himself. Horus was the manipulator of the situation and thus is also guilty. The Emp was honestly stupid to the point of retardation by not actually telling Magnus what his plan was and why he should stop fricking around. And its Tzeentch who wins this battle. Everyone is to blame. Everyone did something wrong.
I actually consider Russ the least wrong in this situation. He's the only one that did what he was told, which for better or worse is the basis of a stable military. Applying our limit to what is acceptable orders to follow to the 40k universe is pointless. Russ was the go to guy when Astartes vs Astartes was needed, he knew what he was and what might be expected. Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I actually consider Russ the least wrong in this situation. He's the only one that did what he was told, which for better or worse is the basis of a stable military. Applying our limit to what is acceptable orders to follow to the 40k universe is pointless. Russ was the go to guy when Astartes vs Astartes was needed, he knew what he was and what might be expected. Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.
Personal morality aside, factually he was the catalyst for the current galactic situation by attacking the sons. So is Magnus. So is Horus. So is the big E. And on and on. My point being is that they are all to blame in near equal parts. There were points in each persons fate in which doing something a bit differently would have avoided the incident. 10k years later and Tzeentch is still winning. I wonder is he gets tired of all the winning. Russ is just as much to blame (and more imho) as the Big E or Magnus. When someone unleashes a dog to bite someone both that person AND his dog are guilty of assault in the eyes of current day law (in most western nations) and logic. Russ, for better or worse, is the one who actually bit.
Furthermore. If Russ was just following orders then why did he disobey orders by offering Magnus a option to surrender? This plot point tells us that Russ is something more than a dog of war and has some level of individual thought. He was capable of questioning the change of orders from Horus. This fact shows this to be true. But he did not. In my opinion he went to Prospero looking for a fight, its because that's what he does best. He made a token gesture of mercy and when that was mysteriously not answered he went full bore. But this is just my interpretation of events and I have no backing for it.
Either way, to make a long story short. Russ is just as much as fault as any and all of the major players. He could have investigated a sudden change of orders given to him DIRECTLY by his father. Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire. More than anything, the heresy is a story of gigantic egos making very very very stupid mistakes. Its funny that you blame Magnus for his hubris when every single character also suffered from the same. Magnus was not a snowflake in arrogance. Its a quality shared by nearly all of his brothers and heavily by his father.
Table wrote: Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire.
As has been mentioned previously, Warmaster carried ALL the weight. As quoted by someone else
"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."
The Emperor's direct order to the Primarch was to treat Horus' orders as another direct order from the Emperor. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Furthermore, there was literally no reason to contemplate that Horus had ulterior motives or was lying - he was literally the Emperor's favourite child and first-found son. Don't forget, Russ was the next one found after Horus and so was likely pretty high in popularity. But after Ullanor, for all intents and purposes, Horus was the Emperor in terms of Military rank. Horus is Churchill during World War 2. And it doesn't matter what Field Marshall or High Admiral tells you - if Churchill gives you a direct order. And if Churchill called you on the radio and said
"King George gave you an order to capture Hitler and bring him back to face trial. He's changed his mind and ask that I instruct you to kill Hitler, by any means necessary, bring his head on a spike, and turn Berlin into a mass grave..."
Table wrote: Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire.
As has been mentioned previously, Warmaster carried ALL the weight. As quoted by someone else
"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."
The Emperor's direct order to the Primarch was to treat Horus' orders as another direct order from the Emperor. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Furthermore, there was literally no reason to contemplate that Horus had ulterior motives or was lying - he was literally the Emperor's favourite child and first-found son. Don't forget, Russ was the next one found after Horus and so was likely pretty high in popularity. But after Ullanor, for all intents and purposes, Horus was the Emperor in terms of Military rank. Horus is Churchill during World War 2. And it doesn't matter what Field Marshall or High Admiral tells you - if Churchill gives you a direct order. And if Churchill called you on the radio and said
"King George gave you an order to capture Hitler and bring him back to face trial. He's changed his mind and ask that I instruct you to kill Hitler, by any means necessary, bring his head on a spike, and turn Berlin into a mass grave..."
Are you going to question this? Hell no.
using churchill etc is a poor analogy IMHO. A better one is that Horus was made "supreme commander of the Imperium's military" that meant, technicly, the primarchs answered to him, and yeah his orders came from the emperor. Someone said if a colonel ordered you to do something but a general ahd already given you other orders you'd question it, thing is... in the real military the general wouldn't directly issue you the orders, there are chains of command.
Best example I can think of from history is Napoleon. Starting off as a general working for the Republic, and ending up rebelling against them and assuming the title Emperor of France.
Table wrote: Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire.
As has been mentioned previously, Warmaster carried ALL the weight. As quoted by someone else
"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."
The Emperor's direct order to the Primarch was to treat Horus' orders as another direct order from the Emperor. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Furthermore, there was literally no reason to contemplate that Horus had ulterior motives or was lying - he was literally the Emperor's favourite child and first-found son. Don't forget, Russ was the next one found after Horus and so was likely pretty high in popularity. But after Ullanor, for all intents and purposes, Horus was the Emperor in terms of Military rank. Horus is Churchill during World War 2. And it doesn't matter what Field Marshall or High Admiral tells you - if Churchill gives you a direct order. And if Churchill called you on the radio and said
"King George gave you an order to capture Hitler and bring him back to face trial. He's changed his mind and ask that I instruct you to kill Hitler, by any means necessary, bring his head on a spike, and turn Berlin into a mass grave..."
Are you going to question this? Hell no.
using churchill etc is a poor analogy IMHO. A better one is that Horus was made "supreme commander of the Imperium's military" that meant, technicly, the primarchs answered to him, and yeah his orders came from the emperor. Someone said if a colonel ordered you to do something but a general ahd already given you other orders you'd question it, thing is... in the real military the general wouldn't directly issue you the orders, there are chains of command.
But again, Horus isn't a colonel and the Emperor isn't a General. The Emperor is Caesar, lord, leader and commander, and Horus is his right-hand man. The military structure isn't the same as the Primarchs are the Generals, and the Emperor is well, the Emperor. His authority goes far beyond that of simple military command. His rule goes back to the day where Kings were both rulers and military commanders. His word is absolute. And he said to treat Horus' orders as his own. There's no ambiguity there.
In terms of chain of command - again, this is not normal military structure or normally contradicting commands. This is the entire nations's 2IC saying that the 1IC (hence my Churchill vs King George comparison) had slightly changed their mind. IF The Emperor, for example, was set to reward Magnus and Horus suddenly changed it to a kill-order, that would be very different situation. But it was simply a capture order changed to a "dead or alive" order in line with precedent. Plus, as quoted, the Emperor said in not so many words "No holds barred do whatever it takes I don't care."
I'd also note given who the space wolves are the emperor knew damn well what would happen. if he wanted Magnus to be politely collected he'd have sent one of the diplomat legions, not the Legion that proudly called themselves his "executioners"
Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'
Never claimed that Magnus was innocent. Him breaking the edict at Nikaea and his general disregard for messing about with sorcery did a LOT of harm, arguably even dooming humanity by destroying their last best hope against chaos.
All I'm saying is that Russ and the Wolves were not the good guys on Prospero. Russ disobeyed a direct order from the emperor because it was countermanded by someone of lesser authority (yes I'm fully aware that Horus "speaks with the authority of the emperor" but the emperor told Russ to do something straight out of his own mouth). Russ just happened to agree with the new orders more and so he didn't think too hard about it. Horus tricked Russ, but he used Russ' hatred of Magnus to ensure his deception was successful. That was a failing on RUSS' part.
I also find it doubtful that Horus told Russ to wipe out the entire planet, as that should have sent alarm bells ringing in Russ' head. Add that to the fact that the burning of the libraries was most likely on Russ' individual initiative paints the picture of a man just itching for an excuse to visit bloodshed and destruction on his rivals.
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable. I know we can't really hold people in 40k to real life standards, but both Perturabo and Curze were both held accountable for glassing their planets which were in open rebellion and I wonder why Russ was not held accountable for glassing Prospero when most of the populace did nothing wrong.
It isn't about Magnus deserving it karmically. It isn't about what Magnus did to lead himself into this situation in the first place. It was about Russ thinking that Magnus was too dangerous to take back to Terra alive, and that the galaxy was better off without Prospero and all of its inhabitants, innocent or not. As soon as Russ got the excuse to act on what he was feeling deep down, he did. He didn't question it, even though Horus was countermanding/changing an order given directly by the emperor, right out of the emperor's own mouth.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'
err.. pretty sure it was heavily implied Russ wasn't acting under orders when he confronted Angron.
All I'm saying is that Russ and the Wolves were not the good guys on Prospero. Russ disobeyed a direct order from the emperor because it was countermanded
Incorrect, it was not countermanded, it was altered. Countermanding it would suggest Horus told Russ to bring Magnus to him instead of the Emperor, or to not go at all.
by someone of lesser authority (yes I'm fully aware that Horus "speaks with the authority of the emperor" but the emperor told Russ to do something straight out of his own mouth).
Also incorrect, Horus does not "speak with the authority of the Emperor", his orders are to be treated as if "they came from mine own mouth." To treat Horus' orders as lesser would be to question the wisdom and will of the Emperor and also to directly disobey an explicit order from the Emperor as well. Again, Horus didn't countermand, but edit, the order, and there was no reason to doubt the validity of that claim.
Russ just happened to agree with the new orders more and so he didn't think too hard about it. Horus tricked Russ, but he used Russ' hatred of Magnus to ensure his deception was successful. That was a failing on RUSS' part.
Quite possible, and likely, but you'll also find that in Prospero Burns, which tells the tale from Russ' own mouth, that he simply follows the orders. Its his job and it doesn't matter if he likes it or not. If the Emperor had told him to purge all Rune Priests from his own Legion he would have too. Or wiped out Ultramar, he also would have done that.
I also find it doubtful that Horus told Russ to wipe out the entire planet, as that should have sent alarm bells ringing in Russ' head. Add that to the fact that the burning of the libraries was most likely on Russ' individual initiative paints the picture of a man just itching for an excuse to visit bloodshed and destruction on his rivals.
No, that would be the Emperor himself - first quote is from A Thousand Sons, and the second from Collected Visions
"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me.He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable. I know we can't really hold people in 40k to real life standards, but both Perturabo and Curze were both held accountable for glassing their planets which were in open rebellion and I wonder why Russ was not held accountable for glassing Prospero when most of the populace did nothing wrong.
The Emperor is not a superior officer, he is ultimate ruler and master of mankind, and Horus his voice. This goes beyond purely military structure. Also, those standards are a very modern construct - medieval warriors often celebrated a victory with a good ol' rape of all the women they just widowed. The Emperor is more on an authoritative level to God for Christians, and if during the Crusades (the Earth ones), God had directly come down and said "Burn the entire Middle East to ashes" none would even think twice.
Also, see again this line " I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that." All of Magnus' followers include the population of Prospero.
Curze and Perturabo were held accountable for Exterminatus on an Imperial World without sanction or reason, when the standard procedure was to re-conquer and bring them into compliance. Russ followed explicit orders to glass the planet. Besides - soon after Prospero, the Heresy broke out, the Emperor was dead-ish, and everyone had seen the Sons fighting alongside Horus at Terra. No one was questioning him then.
It isn't about Magnus deserving it karmically. It isn't about what Magnus did to lead himself into this situation in the first place. It was about Russ thinking that Magnus was too dangerous to take back to Terra alive, and that the galaxy was better off without Prospero and all of its inhabitants, innocent or not. As soon as Russ got the excuse to act on what he was feeling deep down, he did. He didn't question it, even though Horus was countermanding/changing an order given directly by the emperor, right out of the emperor's own mouth.
See above about "from mine own mouth" and everything else. Russ' thinking didn't come into it. He followed legit orders to the letter.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'
err.. pretty sure it was heavily implied Russ wasn't acting under orders when he confronted Angron.
err... positive the Emperor dispatched Russ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
w1zard wrote: Never claimed that Magnus was innocent. Him breaking the edict at Nikaea and his general disregard for messing about with sorcery did a LOT of harm, arguably even dooming humanity by destroying their last best hope against chaos.
All I'm saying is that Russ and the Wolves were not the good guys on Prospero. Russ disobeyed a direct order from the emperor because it was countermanded by someone of lesser authority (yes I'm fully aware that Horus "speaks with the authority of the emperor" but the emperor told Russ to do something straight out of his own mouth). Russ just happened to agree with the new orders more and so he didn't think too hard about it. Horus tricked Russ, but he used Russ' hatred of Magnus to ensure his deception was successful. That was a failing on RUSS' part.
I also find it doubtful that Horus told Russ to wipe out the entire planet, as that should have sent alarm bells ringing in Russ' head. Add that to the fact that the burning of the libraries was most likely on Russ' individual initiative paints the picture of a man just itching for an excuse to visit bloodshed and destruction on his rivals.
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable. I know we can't really hold people in 40k to real life standards, but both Perturabo and Curze were both held accountable for glassing their planets which were in open rebellion and I wonder why Russ was not held accountable for glassing Prospero when most of the populace did nothing wrong.
It isn't about Magnus deserving it karmically. It isn't about what Magnus did to lead himself into this situation in the first place. It was about Russ thinking that Magnus was too dangerous to take back to Terra alive, and that the galaxy was better off without Prospero and all of its inhabitants, innocent or not. As soon as Russ got the excuse to act on what he was feeling deep down, he did. He didn't question it, even though Horus was countermanding/changing an order given directly by the emperor, right out of the emperor's own mouth.
Russ did not disobey any order from the Emperor. New orders come in and they have to be acted on straight away especially with the drawbacks of astrophathic orders, for instance, maybe Horus got new orders and Russ failed to get them due to warp storms or the astropaths not being able to decipher the message. Horus gave him new orders and his orders are just as valid when it comes to affairs of the great crusade. You are just flat out wrong.
Table wrote: The Thousand Sons, more than any other legion have furthered the downfall of humanity. Both in the past and present. The current galactic severance is a direct result of the 1ksons machinations and warp rituals. They have also destroyed much of the Fenris system and left the SW's in tatters.
Magnus and his ilk are not tragic victims. Magnus directly disobeyed the censur orders of Nikea.
To be fair, so did the Space Wolves, unless one really buys their whole hipster "we don't use the Warp, we totes use the native power of Fenris that we super duper pinky swear isn't the Warp" schtick.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.
"Daaaaaaaad...can you hear me? The basement door is locked...I know you don't want to be disturbed, but big brother is going around dousing the house with gasoline and he's really gone off the deep end talking with weird brother about crazy end of the world stuff while they play with matches, I *really* think you need to come pay attention here, I'm worried and I'm gonna come in if you don't answer, **** is getting real up here...hello?"
Table wrote: The Thousand Sons, more than any other legion have furthered the downfall of humanity. Both in the past and present. The current galactic severance is a direct result of the 1ksons machinations and warp rituals. They have also destroyed much of the Fenris system and left the SW's in tatters.
Magnus and his ilk are not tragic victims. Magnus directly disobeyed the censur orders of Nikea.
To be fair, so did the Space Wolves, unless one really buys their whole hipster "we don't use the Warp, we totes use the native power of Fenris that we super duper pinky swear isn't the Warp" schtick.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.
"Daaaaaaaad...can you hear me? The basement door is locked...I know you don't want to be disturbed, but big brother is going around dousing the house with gasoline and he's really gone off the deep end talking with weird brother about crazy end of the world stuff while they play with matches, I *really* think you need to come pay attention here, I'm worried and I'm gonna come in if you don't answer, **** is getting real up here...hello?"
That's over selling how communication works in 40k. Magnus decided that the emperor needed to know right away which is not a bad assumption. However there were less risky ways to get that info to the Emperor. Magnus played right into chaos's hands by doing the worst possible thing. It really should not be underplayed how much his actions doomed humanity into forever needing the warp.
That's over selling how communication works in 40k. Magnus decided that the emperor needed to know right away which is not a bad assumption. However there were less risky ways to get that info to the Emperor. Magnus played right into chaos's hands by doing the worst possible thing. It really should not be underplayed how much his actions doomed humanity into forever needing the warp.
If memory serves wasn't the Emperor completely absorbed in his webway project and cut off from outside contact during this time?
He could have idk traveled to Terra and talked to him, something that almost every one of his loyalist brothers managed even after the heresy kicked off.
pm713 wrote: Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?
IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.
He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.
Right, but he didn't know what would happen, and galaxy-wide apocalypse war with the forces of daemonic unreality led by your brother to destroy everything you and your brothers and father have built is probably worth breaking a rule or two over.
He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.
Was not the Emperor sitting in "do not call mode" in the otherwise inaccessible Imperial Webway?
That's over selling how communication works in 40k. Magnus decided that the emperor needed to know right away which is not a bad assumption. However there were less risky ways to get that info to the Emperor. Magnus played right into chaos's hands by doing the worst possible thing. It really should not be underplayed how much his actions doomed humanity into forever needing the warp.
If memory serves wasn't the Emperor completely absorbed in his webway project and cut off from outside contact during this time?
Exactly - Magnus had no clue what was happening. For a self-proclaimed knowledge seeker and having made his entire defense at Nikaea centred around a desire to eradicate ignorance, he's certainly a dumb-ass when it comes to this one moment.
And yes, the Emperor was cut off. And when I was a kid, and my dad was at work, and he told me not to call his mobile while he was at work, I DEFINITELY didn't call him on the office switchboard.
pm713 wrote: Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?
IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.
He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.
He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.
Also this. Magnus didn't stop once to question why there was a barrier up, what the barrier was barricading and why a Warp-entity was keen to smash through. He just assumed it was Mr Nice Friendly Warp Creature offering him a helping hand out of love.
At the very least, Magnus was guilty of consorting with unknown Xenos forces.
I mean, if your brother is getting ready burn down the house with everyone inside it, maybe the thing about not calling the mobile phone gets set aside? It's hard to imagine anything taking precedence over that, even powerful wards and spells that indicate danger, particularly when Dad is intentionally keeping you in the dark about what he's doing.
I'd totally call the switchboard at work if my siblings were trying to burn the house down.
Magnus can reasonably be called ignorant, but the Emperor, for whatever reason GW decided, comes off as a total moron here who's basically at fault for everything because he can't be bothered to actually lead anyone, pay attention to anything going on, or listen to anything people are telling him.
Again though this is a false analogy. Even after Horus's corruption, he spent months planning Istavaan 3 and the Heresy lasted years. Magnus had plenty of time to go to Tera in person and talk to dad. This isn't the house is on fire. This is I know something bad is coming in a few weeks and rather than make bad deals with strange warp entities and break into my dads office from across the galaxy, maybe I go to his house and knock on the door.
pm713 wrote: Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?
IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.
He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.
Right, but he didn't know what would happen, and galaxy-wide apocalypse war with the forces of daemonic unreality led by your brother to destroy everything you and your brothers and father have built is probably worth breaking a rule or two over.
He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.
Was not the Emperor sitting in "do not call mode" in the otherwise inaccessible Imperial Webway?
He could also have not broken anything and just travelled there himself. Or contacted someone else on Terra. Or used astropaths. Or send some Thousand Sons. There were much better options.
I think if Magnus walked onto to Terra and started telling people about Horus and his betrayal someone might have gone to get the Emperor.
None of which would have been able to contact him, given he basically locked the door and went deep into work to the point where normal communication was impossible as people keep bringing up in the thread itself.
Vaktathi wrote: I mean, if your brother is getting ready burn down the house with everyone inside it, maybe the thing about not calling the mobile phone gets set aside? It's hard to imagine anything taking precedence over that, even powerful wards and spells that indicate danger, particularly when Dad is intentionally keeping you in the dark about what he's doing.
I'd totally call the switchboard at work if my siblings were trying to burn the house down.
Magnus can reasonably be called ignorant, but the Emperor, for whatever reason GW decided, comes off as a total moron here who's basically at fault for everything because he can't be bothered to actually lead anyone, pay attention to anything going on, or listen to anything people are telling him.
On a personal note - if my dad said don't call at work, that included if there were literal Daemons of Khorne murdering everyone in the street and a crazed Space Wolf tearing gak up.
As said above, Horus wasn't burning down the house, Horus was buying cigarettes and vodka for a midnight bash in the park with his friends. That can wait until Dad gets home.
Besides, the house can be rebuilt. The magical wards to protect an interdimensional network that allows us to get to and from places without worrying about evil gods killing everything is a variety of ways is vastly more important than an little civil war.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: None of which would have been able to contact him, given he basically locked the door and went deep into work to the point where normal communication was impossible as people keep bringing up in the thread itself.
The Emperor was not so far removed that he couldnt sense that Magnus was on Terra and ranting about Horus. Also don't forget that the Wards were around Terra - Magnus could have gone to see him in person, face to face, there was literally nothing stopping that.
pm713 wrote: Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?
IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.
He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.
Right, but he didn't know what would happen, and galaxy-wide apocalypse war with the forces of daemonic unreality led by your brother to destroy everything you and your brothers and father have built is probably worth breaking a rule or two over.
He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.
Was not the Emperor sitting in "do not call mode" in the otherwise inaccessible Imperial Webway?
He could also have not broken anything and just travelled there himself. Or contacted someone else on Terra. Or used astropaths. Or send some Thousand Sons. There were much better options.
I mean, when BigE is not taking visitors, and Magnus has been sent to his room, and the method by which you have come by your information is likely to get a messenger arrested or killed or the like, and when Horus and his or Erebus's operatives could find out about or intercept such a message, it doesn't seem too ridiculous.
I think if Magnus walked onto to Terra and started telling people about Horus and his betrayal someone might have gone to get the Emperor.
Magnus point blank shared minds with the Emperor and directly transmitted his visions and Big E just ignored it, who's to say anyone else was going to believe him? Horus was the beloved "can do no wrong" son, Magnus had just been sent to time out for being a naughty boy, showing up saying "hey I had a sorcerous vision that the perfect child is totes gonna turn on Big E and we should do something about that...why are you all laughing? No don't call the bailiffs, hey wait I'm trying to..."
HoundsofDemos wrote: Again though this is a false analogy. Even after Horus's corruption, he spent months planning Istavaan 3 and the Heresy lasted years. Magnus had plenty of time to go to Tera in person and talk to dad.
That assumes that Magnus knew Horus' timing, I don't recall him knowing that, though I could be wrong. Also, again, Big E is hiding away in the webway not talking to anyone at this point.
Vaktathi wrote: I mean, if your brother is getting ready burn down the house with everyone inside it, maybe the thing about not calling the mobile phone gets set aside? It's hard to imagine anything taking precedence over that, even powerful wards and spells that indicate danger, particularly when Dad is intentionally keeping you in the dark about what he's doing.
I'd totally call the switchboard at work if my siblings were trying to burn the house down.
Magnus can reasonably be called ignorant, but the Emperor, for whatever reason GW decided, comes off as a total moron here who's basically at fault for everything because he can't be bothered to actually lead anyone, pay attention to anything going on, or listen to anything people are telling him.
On a personal note - if my dad said don't call at work, that included if there were literal Daemons of Khorne murdering everyone in the street and a crazed Space Wolf tearing gak up.
And that's how beach landings in Normandy go unchallenged until its too late
As said above, Horus wasn't burning down the house, Horus was buying cigarettes and vodka for a midnight bash in the park with his friends. That can wait until Dad gets home.
At that exact literal moment? Sure. Magnus saw much more that would happen however.
Besides, the house can be rebuilt. The magical wards to protect an interdimensional network that allows us to get to and from places without worrying about evil gods killing everything is a variety of ways is vastly more important than an little civil war.
Well, when that civil war will destroy all the work on that network or subvert it, and when nobody else knows about said network and only know about the house which they spent all their lives building, others can be excused for not recognizing the higher priority.
The Emperor was not so far removed that he couldnt sense that Magnus was on Terra and ranting about Horus.
We have no idea about that, if he was removed enough that a simple psychic message required busting god-level psychic wards, assuming Big E would hear the doorbell may be a bit hopeful.
Also don't forget that the Wards were around Terra - Magnus could have gone to see him in person, face to face, there was literally nothing stopping that.
I mean, except for the fact that he could have been intercepted or tipped had his warning leak out and tip off Horus on en route, and he'd have to explain to multiple people how he'd broken the rules as to how he got his info, who likely then would not have believed him.
Vaktathi wrote: Is that a new retcon? I dont have anything in front of me at work, but everything I recall hs him meeting minds with the Emperor.
It might just be me misremembering but what I remember happening is that before Magnus shared his news on Horus he realised what he'd done by breaking the Webway and the resulting break in concentration ended the spell before he could even say sorry.
The psychic shockwave of Magnus breaking through to Terra killed millions of people, destroyed most of the whispering towers, killed most of the Astropaths etc. He let Daemons into the webway. He came in the form of a daemon, he told the Emperor about Horus but realised the Emperor already knew, as word reached the whispering towers before Magnus came to Terra. Then The Emperor showed Magnus of his plans, and his plans for Magnus and how he had destroyed the Imperiums future. Then Magnus got back to Prospero and ran into a room crying.
Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order
Asmodios wrote: Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order
That's why he is the worst character, he was the brightest and most knowledgeable out of all the other Primarchs, though he didn't have an ounce of wisdom. He was arrogant and would even boast how not even the Emperor could see into his command tent because of the wards he'd set up, he even thought he uncovered the webway, thinking the Emperor had no idea about it.
Asmodios wrote: Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order
"Hey, I know y'all just sent me to my room for using psychic powers, but hey, ah, I received a psychic vision about the Big E's favorite and totally trusted son, the beloved Warmaster, turning traitor. Could you go let Dad know I'm here? Oh, he's been locked away out of contact with everyone doing who knows what and isn't taking visitors? Well yeah, it's me and my closest several thousand pals totally here with our ships and weapons without orders to help fight off my traitorous brother everyone loves so much...wait why is everyone staring at me like I'm crazy? What are you talking about insurrection? That's what I'm trying to warn you about. Why are the anti-orbital guns locking onto my ships?"
Hubris is a failing of Magnus, but there was absolutely valid logic in his actions. It's also not like all the other Primarchs weren't also raging arrogant egomaniacs either
Asmodios wrote: Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order
"Hey, I know y'all just sent me to my room for using psychic powers, but hey, ah, I received a psychic vision about the Big E's favorite and totally trusted son, the beloved Warmaster, turning traitor. Could you go let Dad know I'm here? Oh, he's been locked away out of contact with everyone doing who knows what and isn't taking visitors? Well yeah, it's me and my closest several thousand pals totally here with our ships and weapons without orders to help fight off my traitorous brother everyone loves so much...wait why is everyone staring at me like I'm crazy? What are you talking about insurrection? That's what I'm trying to warn you about. Why are the anti-orbital guns locking onto my ships?"
Hubris is a failing of Magnus, but there was absolutely valid logic in his actions. It's also not like all the other Primarchs weren't also raging arrogant egomaniacs either
I think rocking up in system, sending the fleet to somewhere it's easily dealt with and going to Terra alone to find a Custodes/whoever was in charge and saying Horus has gone whacko is a much better plan than sulking and watching his legion die before reversing his choice and helping Horus.
Asmodios wrote: Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order
"Hey, I know y'all just sent me to my room for using psychic powers, but hey, ah, I received a psychic vision about the Big E's favorite and totally trusted son, the beloved Warmaster, turning traitor. Could you go let Dad know I'm here? Oh, he's been locked away out of contact with everyone doing who knows what and isn't taking visitors? Well yeah, it's me and my closest several thousand pals totally here with our ships and weapons without orders to help fight off my traitorous brother everyone loves so much...wait why is everyone staring at me like I'm crazy? What are you talking about insurrection? That's what I'm trying to warn you about. Why are the anti-orbital guns locking onto my ships?"
Hubris is a failing of Magnus, but there was absolutely valid logic in his actions. It's also not like all the other Primarchs weren't also raging arrogant egomaniacs either
His "logic" was terrible. He got direct orders from the strongest being in the universe to not keep screwing with the warp.... so he continues to screw with the warp because "he knows better". Then he sees that his brother has fallen to chaos so he decides to just mess with the warp (after being told not to). Then he runs into a psychic barrier between him and his father (that told him not to mess with the warp) so he consults a being from the warp to rip down the wall.
He does all of this when he simply could have headed back to his father with his entire legion. Even if he had managed to warn the emperor he would have had to gather to fight the traitors anyway which would have been him getting in his ships and headed back to dad anyway. I'm not a SW fan at all but Magnus was 100% in the wrong and everything that happened to him was 100% his fault. Even his locking himself in his room instead of taking comman of his sons so they would surrender without a fight was a terrible choice.
Asmodios wrote: Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order
IMHO Magnus wasn't just looking to warn the Emperor, in fact that was his secondary concern, his main concern, weather he knew it or not was Vindication. being proven right. and instead he proved himself wrong. That explains his despair, not only did he screw up b ig time, but he basicly ensured that he had lost the "Debate"
Asmodios wrote: Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order
IMHO Magnus wasn't just looking to warn the Emperor, in fact that was his secondary concern, his main concern, weather he knew it or not was Vindication. being proven right. and instead he proved himself wrong. That explains his despair, not only did he screw up b ig time, but he basicly ensured that he had lost the "Debate"
Exactly it was his "I know better" hubris that caused him to act like an idiot. He proved everyone that argued against him completely right
I think rocking up in system, sending the fleet to somewhere it's easily dealt with and going to Terra alone to find a Custodes/whoever was in charge and saying Horus has gone whacko is a much better plan than sulking and watching his legion die before reversing his choice and helping Horus.
In hindsight, doing nothing would have been his best course of action, but that's 20/20. Hoping that a randomly stumbled upon Custodes is going to believe him and his Warp visions, send on that message, and somehow ensure it reaches the incommunicado Emperor, wherever he is, doesn't sound like a great way to raise the alarm about a galaxy wide war with daemons led by your Warmaster brother. Especially if word leaks in that game of telephone and Horus or others find out about it and turn it against Magnus.
Magnus's choice had consequences, consequences that ended up benefitting nobody but the dark powers, but attempting to contact the Emperor directly from his perspective was not illogical at the time.
His "logic" was terrible. He got direct orders from the strongest being in the universe to not keep screwing with the warp.... so he continues to screw with the warp because "he knows better".
Sure, he was wrong there, but that's a different issue.
Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.
Then he sees that his brother has fallen to chaos so he decides to just mess with the warp (after being told not to). Then he runs into a psychic barrier between him and his father (that told him not to mess with the warp) so he consults a being from the warp to rip down the wall.
He saw a threat and acted on it. He was ignorant of aspects, but the Emperor also could have enlightened him and...chose not to.
From the point where Magnus sees the coming war, his actions are not illogical. He knows others are unlikely to believe him, he knows the method through which he gathered the information was a no-no, he knows that others could intercept a courrier or other messaging methods, but the threat was dire and imagining something worse was probably not possible and the alarm needed to be raised.
He does all of this when he simply could have headed back to his father with his entire legion.
Showing up with his entire legion to warn the emperor, who was not taking visitors, about his warp-delivered visions of his brothers betrayal would likely have gone down...at least as poorly. It just wouldn't have involved the Space Wolves and Prospero.
Even if he had managed to warn the emperor he would have had to gather to fight the traitors anyway which would have been him getting in his ships and headed back to dad anyway.
We have no idea what the logistics of that campaign would look like, gathering at Terra would not have been an automatic thing to do. That would depend on the how the various legions were already arrayed, logistics, current conquest warzones, etc.
I think rocking up in system, sending the fleet to somewhere it's easily dealt with and going to Terra alone to find a Custodes/whoever was in charge and saying Horus has gone whacko is a much better plan than sulking and watching his legion die before reversing his choice and helping Horus.
In hindsight, doing nothing would have been his best course of action, but that's 20/20. Hoping that a randomly stumbled upon Custodes is going to believe him and his Warp visions, send on that message, and somehow ensure it reaches the incommunicado Emperor, wherever he is, doesn't sound like a great way to raise the alarm about a galaxy wide war with daemons led by your Warmaster brother. Especially if word leaks in that game of telephone and Horus or others find out about it and turn it against Magnus.
Magnus's choice had consequences, consequences that ended up benefitting nobody but the dark powers, but attempting to contact the Emperor directly from his perspective was not illogical at the time.
His "logic" was terrible. He got direct orders from the strongest being in the universe to not keep screwing with the warp.... so he continues to screw with the warp because "he knows better".
Sure, he was wrong there, but that's a different issue.
Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.
Then he sees that his brother has fallen to chaos so he decides to just mess with the warp (after being told not to). Then he runs into a psychic barrier between him and his father (that told him not to mess with the warp) so he consults a being from the warp to rip down the wall.
He saw a threat and acted on it. He was ignorant of aspects, but the Emperor also could have enlightened him and...chose not to.
From the point where Magnus sees the coming war, his actions are not illogical. He knows others are unlikely to believe him, he knows the method through which he gathered the information was a no-no, he knows that others could intercept a courrier or other messaging methods, but the threat was dire and imagining something worse was probably not possible and the alarm needed to be raised.
He does all of this when he simply could have headed back to his father with his entire legion.
Showing up with his entire legion to warn the emperor, who was not taking visitors, about his warp-delivered visions of his brothers betrayal would likely have gone down...at least as poorly. It just wouldn't have involved the Space Wolves and Prospero.
Even if he had managed to warn the emperor he would have had to gather to fight the traitors anyway which would have been him getting in his ships and headed back to dad anyway.
We have no idea what the logistics of that campaign would look like, gathering at Terra would not have been an automatic thing to do. That would depend on the how the various legions were already arrayed, logistics, current conquest warzones, etc.
Not sure why you think that him heading back would have gone just as bad.... If he had just gone back
1. He wouldn't have up the emperors work meaning he wouldn't have forced him to sit on the throne meaning big E would have been in the fight and the heresy would have been over quickly
2. His whole legion wouldn't be lost and thus the loyalist have another entire legion
3. SW would have never been so damaged and so far away from big E
Also saying "other people did it too" isn't only a bad defense but legions like the SW weren't making pacts with the dark gods. Every step along the way was just one bluder after another all because he couldnt except that his dad knew better then him and sometimes you have to take an order even if you dont like it
1. He wouldn't have up the emperors work meaning he wouldn't have forced him to sit on the throne meaning big E would have been in the fight and the heresy would have been over quickly
2. His whole legion wouldn't be lost and thus the loyalist have another entire legion
3. SW would have never been so damaged and so far away from big E
This all assumes that the Big E would ever have been accessible, much less have gotten into the fight, and that Magnus and his legion would not have been treated as seditious traitors looking to smear the beloved Warmaster in delivering their warp-spawned visions of doom after showing up on Dads doorstep ready for war, or that Horus or others serving Chaos or just their own petty political desires wouldn't have found out and interceded. Most of these are all unprovable "what ifs" or based on hindsight, but given Magnus' status of being in the doghouse, the nature of how he acquired his information, Horus' high standing, and the inaccessible nature of the Emperor at that point, being treated as insurrectionists would have been far more likely.
Also saying "other people did it too" isn't only a bad defense but legions like the SW weren't making pacts with the dark gods.
Nikea banned librariums and use of the warp in general, something all the Legions basically forgot about as quick as they could.
Its been a while, but IIRC magnus isnt fully aware of the nature of the chaos gods and daemons by this point either.
Every step along the way was just one bluder after another all because he couldnt except that his dad knew better then him and sometimes you have to take an order even if you dont like it
I'm not saying Magnus is totally blameless, but by the time he sees the revelation about Horus, his actions from that point on aren't irrational, he's doing what he believes to be the right thing to help his father, but good ol' dad is leaving *everyone* in the dark and Magnus is far from the only casualty of that.
Given that Magnus was also always intended to be plugged in to power the Imperial Webway, it's doubly silly the Emperor was doing everything possible to keep Magnus in the dark about it.
And, on the point about having to take orders, again, its not like the other Legions adhered to Nikea, they all thought they knew better, we see them all back to messing with the Warp again in short order.
Basically the Emperor told the kids to be good, left the gun safe open, the stove on, the keys in the car, a bag of coke on the counter, the liquor cabinet unlocked, the cigarettes on the table with the credit card, and then told all his kids he's going into the basement and he's not to be disturbed and has no idea when he'll be back, and then got mad when **** went down.
1. He wouldn't have up the emperors work meaning he wouldn't have forced him to sit on the throne meaning big E would have been in the fight and the heresy would have been over quickly
2. His whole legion wouldn't be lost and thus the loyalist have another entire legion
3. SW would have never been so damaged and so far away from big E
This all assumes that the Big E would ever have been accessible, much less have gotten into the fight, and that Magnus and his legion would not have been treated as seditious traitors looking to smear the beloved Warmaster in delivering their warp-spawned visions of doom after showing up on Dads doorstep ready for war, or that Horus or others serving Chaos or just their own petty political desires wouldn't have found out and interceded. Most of these are all unprovable "what ifs" or based on hindsight, but given Magnus' status of being in the doghouse, the nature of how he acquired his information, Horus' high standing, and the inaccessible nature of the Emperor at that point, being treated as insurrectionists would have been far more likely.
Also saying "other people did it too" isn't only a bad defense but legions like the SW weren't making pacts with the dark gods.
Nikea banned librariums and use of the warp in general, something all the Legions basically forgot about as quick as they could.
Its been a while, but IIRC magnus isnt fully aware of the nature of the chaos gods and daemons by this point either.
Every step along the way was just one bluder after another all because he couldnt except that his dad knew better then him and sometimes you have to take an order even if you dont like it
I'm not saying Magnus is totally blameless, but by the time he sees the revelation about Horus, his actions from that point on aren't irrational, he's doing what he believes to be the right thing to help his father, but good ol' dad is leaving *everyone* in the dark and Magnus is far from the only casualty of that.
Given that Magnus was also always intended to be plugged in to power the Imperial Webway, it's doubly silly the Emperor was doing everything possible to keep Magnus in the dark about it.
And, on the point about having to take orders, again, its not like the other Legions adhered to Nikea, they all thought they knew better, we see them all back to messing with the Warp again in short order.
Basically the Emperor told the kids to be good, left the gun safe open, the stove on, the keys in the car, a bag of coke on the counter, the liquor cabinet unlocked, the cigarettes on the table with the credit card, and then told all his kids he's going into the basement and he's not to be disturbed and has no idea when he'll be back, and then got mad when **** went down.
They're not really "what ifs" because we know that the emperor was stuck before and after the heresy on the GT because of what Magnus did. The Imperium wouldn't be in the state it was without Magnus screwing up like he did. Let's say your worst case vision happens.
>maguns goes to see big E
>Big E doesn't believe him and is locked up
>Horus then goes traitor
>magnus is proven right
so worst case scenario Magnus is locked up for a bit and the TS and SW are still at full strength for the heresy and big E isn't stuck on a thrown for eternity.
They're not really "what ifs" because we know that the emperor was stuck before and after the heresy on the GT because of what Magnus did. The Imperium wouldn't be in the state it was without Magnus screwing up like he did. Let's say your worst case vision happens.
>maguns goes to see big E
>Big E doesn't believe him and is locked up
>Horus then goes traitor
>magnus is proven right
so worst case scenario Magnus is locked up for a bit and the TS and SW are still at full strength for the heresy and big E isn't stuck on a thrown for eternity.
From an overall persective sure, though primarily I was coming at it from how Magnus and the Tsons would look at it weighing their options.
These other consequences would not have happened, true, but nobody could have foreseen them, thats all stuff known only in hindsight, except possibly to the Emperor, in which case he did a terrible job of preventing it.
Expecting Magnus to have known all this is kind of as silly as expecting Russ to have known that Horus was manipulating him with changed orders and blaming him for not bringing Magnus back to stick in the GT so the Emperor could then go do his own thing, when nobody told him that was the plan.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ did not disobey any order from the Emperor. New orders come in and they have to be acted on straight away especially with the drawbacks of astrophathic orders, for instance, maybe Horus got new orders and Russ failed to get them due to warp storms or the astropaths not being able to decipher the message. Horus gave him new orders and his orders are just as valid when it comes to affairs of the great crusade. You are just flat out wrong.
The emperor gives you an order, and Horus gives you another order that directly contradicts the Emperor's. Which one do you follow? If you are a loyalist, the Emperor's. That is pretty cut and dried and I really don't see how that can be argued.
pm713 wrote: He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.
He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.
It is very explicitly stated that going to Terra himself would take too long (and would be to dangerous as he would be opening himself up for assassination attempts along the way), and that he didn't know who he could trust among the astropaths (some of whom may have been loyal to Horus), or that an astropathic message could have even been delivered to the emperor (who was in seclusion and seeing nobody, not even his custodes). The only way to 100% reliably contact the Emperor and get his message across was to do so through telepathy.
I'm not sure why people think "Lol he should have just flown to Terra" is an acceptable criticism when the books bend over backwards to close that loophole.
Vaktathi wrote: Expecting Magnus to have known all this is kind of as silly as expecting Russ to have known that Horus was manipulating him with changed orders and blaming him for not bringing Magnus back to stick in the GT so the Emperor could then go do his own thing, when nobody told him that was the plan.
I don't think it is 100% Russ fault that Horus tricked him. Merely pointing out that Horus was able to trick Russ by using Russ' prejudices and hatred of Magnus against him.
If I get two conflicting sets of orders, I am going to call home and clarify. Even if they both come from people I trust.
Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.
Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.
Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.
White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.
I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.
Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.
Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.
Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.
White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.
I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.
and then you had Dorn who locked his Libby's up because Dorn was a dick
Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.
Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.
Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.
White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.
I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.
and then you had Dorn who locked his Libby's up because Dorn was a dick
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ did not disobey any order from the Emperor. New orders come in and they have to be acted on straight away especially with the drawbacks of astrophathic orders, for instance, maybe Horus got new orders and Russ failed to get them due to warp storms or the astropaths not being able to decipher the message. Horus gave him new orders and his orders are just as valid when it comes to affairs of the great crusade. You are just flat out wrong.
The emperor gives you an order, and Horus gives you another order that directly contradicts the Emperor's. Which one do you follow? If you are a loyalist, the Emperor's. That is pretty cut and dried and I really don't see how that can be argued.
pm713 wrote: He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.
He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.
It is very explicitly stated that going to Terra himself would take too long (and would be to dangerous as he would be opening himself up for assassination attempts along the way), and that he didn't know who he could trust among the astropaths (some of whom may have been loyal to Horus), or that an astropathic message could have even been delivered to the emperor (who was in seclusion and seeing nobody, not even his custodes). The only way to 100% reliably contact the Emperor and get his message across was to do so through telepathy.
I'm not sure why people think "Lol he should have just flown to Terra" is an acceptable criticism when the books bend over backwards to close that loophole.
Vaktathi wrote: Expecting Magnus to have known all this is kind of as silly as expecting Russ to have known that Horus was manipulating him with changed orders and blaming him for not bringing Magnus back to stick in the GT so the Emperor could then go do his own thing, when nobody told him that was the plan.
I don't think it is 100% Russ fault that Horus tricked him. Merely pointing out that Horus was able to trick Russ by using Russ' prejudices and hatred of Magnus against him.
If I get two conflicting sets of orders, I am going to call home and clarify. Even if they both come from people I trust.
Russ saw an excuse to fight Magnus and took it.
Russ didn't know that Horus had turned traitor when he followed his order.
Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.
Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.
Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.
White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.
I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.
and then you had Dorn who locked his Libby's up because Dorn was a dick
Well your not wrong....
the sad thing is I was hoping I had misremembered that and someone would correct me
w1zard wrote: If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.
If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.
On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.
There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.
When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.
w1zard wrote: If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.
If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.
On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.
There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.
When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.
Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.
w1zard wrote: If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.
If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.
On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.
There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.
When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.
Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.
This is something about the two forgotten primarchs that I think people overlook - in order to expunge them from history you need to kill a whole lot of bystanders.
w1zard wrote: If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.
If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.
On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.
There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.
When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.
Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.
This is something about the two forgotten primarchs that I think people overlook - in order to expunge them from history you need to kill a whole lot of bystanders.
you'd need to kill off the fleet crew, the soldiers operating beside them... it'd be messy. this of course is assuming they didn't get themselves 100% killed. people take it as a given Russ killed them, but I'd caution against that. when russ talks about sanctioning another legion, astartes fighting astartes, he could simply have been refering to the "Night of the Wolf"
w1zard wrote: If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.
If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.
On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.
There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.
When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.
Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.
Not true, the Wolves loot, its part of their culture. There is just nothing really to loot from average humans. They've been known to loot allied chapters destroyed or abandoned battleships even traitor battleships. Logan's own axe is looted from a Khorne champion.
Scott-S6 wrote: If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.
On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.
There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.
When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.
Russ' purpose was to be an astarte killer, a troubleshooter. He (maybe) purged two legions before, that is different than slaughtering an entire world full of innocent civilians just because they happen to be in the general vicinity of his target. There is nothing in the lore to suggest that Russ was ever ordered to participate in the wholesale slaughter of civilians at any point in his history.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.
They were not enemy or neutral civilians, they were loyal imperial citizens.
Prospero was an Imperial world last time I checked.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ didn't know that Horus had turned traitor when he followed his order.
I am aware.
He still should have treated the countermand with more suspicion, and at the very least sent an astropathic message to the Emperor to confirm the order change. The fact that Horus basically said "go kill your brother" and Russ said "yep sure!" without as much as a seconds hesitation or doubt really illustrates that Russ wanted the fight. Sure he made a pretty feeble surrender demand, but it was more of a "come quietly or this gets messy" rather than a "please, for the love of the emperor I don't want to do this".
Scott-S6 wrote: If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.
On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.
There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.
When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.
Russ' purpose was to be an astarte killer, a troubleshooter. He (maybe) purged two legions before, that is different than slaughtering an entire world full of innocent civilians just because they happen to be in the general vicinity of his target. There is nothing in the lore to suggest that Russ was ever ordered to participate in the wholesale slaughter of civilians at any point in his history.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.
They were not enemy or neutral civilians, they were loyal imperial citizens.
Prospero was an Imperial world last time I checked.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ didn't know that Horus had turned traitor when he followed his order.
I am aware.
He still should have treated the countermand with more suspicion, and at the very least sent an astropathic message to the Emperor to confirm the order change. The fact that Horus basically said "go kill your brother" and Russ said "yep sure!" without as much as a seconds hesitation or doubt really illustrates that Russ wanted the fight. Sure he made a pretty feeble surrender demand, but it was more of a "come quietly or this gets messy" rather than a "please, for the love of the emperor I don't want to do this".
No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.
I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.
The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.
I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.
The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
He wasn't trigger happy at all, he said he wanted Magnus to receive the least amount of punishment before Nikaea, that is not triggeer happy. He only hated Magnus after Magnus killed his warriors, it was nothing compared to Perty and Dorn. There was no reason for Russ to consider things more carefully. You think that because you know Horus went traitor, If Horus never went traitor why would Russ consider it at all. That's where your logic falls away, you are thinking with hindsight. Because Horus went traitor you think Russ should have known that somehow and therefore not trusted his orders. Imagine the Emperor turned to chaos, should Russ have considered not following the Emperors orders. That Horus would turn was nearly as unthinkable as the Emperor himself turning.
Russ and his wolves slaughters loyalists before, they killed many World Eaters, it was their job.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.
I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.
I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.
I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.
Russ' purpose was to be an astarte killer, a troubleshooter. He (maybe) purged two legions before, that is different than slaughtering an entire world full of innocent civilians just because they happen to be in the general vicinity of his target. There is nothing in the lore to suggest that Russ was ever ordered to participate in the wholesale slaughter of civilians at any point in his history.
How do you erase a legion and it's primarch so thoroughly that no-one except the primarchs and custodes remember they exist without a lot of collateral damage?
It's incredibly naive to think that didn't involve slaughtering their serfs, their fleet crew, the inhabitants of the primarch's homeworld, possibly even the inhabitants of worlds they've brought into compliance.
Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.
I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.
I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.
disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)
Scott-S6 wrote: Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.
Those civilians weren't loyal Imperials though, so they don't really matter. It makes no sense why Curze and Perturabo would get 40k arrest warrants for genociding their home worlds, but when Russ does it (despite not being ordered to by the emperor) it's perfectly fine apparently.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.
I think it is certainly debatable that Russ bears responsibility for what happened on Prospero. I think so, but I concede that it is very much a matter of opinion... which is the point of this thread. What is indisputable though was that Russ hated Magnus. I'm not sure how you are even arguing that after reading the HH books. I cannot think of two Primarchs who detested each other more (apart from the already aforementioned Dorn and Perturabo).
One differance between Russ on Prosperio, and Cruz and Pert, is that Cruz and Pert slaughtered their home worlds in response to uprisings on it. this was basicly them failing one of their core responsaibilities. it IS a differance
BrianDavion wrote: One differance between Russ on Prosperio, and Cruz and Pert, is that Cruz and Pert slaughtered their home worlds in response to uprisings on it. this was basicly them failing one of their core responsaibilities. it IS a differance
So the crime is letting a rebellion happen on their homeworld and not the indiscriminate slaughter of Imperial citizens? That is not what the HH books made it seem like.
Scott-S6 wrote: Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.
Those civilians weren't loyal Imperials though, so they don't really matter. It makes no sense why Curze and Perturabo would get 40k arrest warrants for genociding their home worlds, but when Russ does it (despite not being ordered to by the emperor) it's perfectly fine apparently.
But all of the civilians that would have needed slaughtering to expunge all trace of the missing primarchs were. So it's not exactly a big surprise for Russ to not blink at those orders.
I'm also not sure what sort of censure you expected Russ to get at that point when Prospero was immediately followed by the full extent of the Heresy being revealed. Different priorities at that point.
BrianDavion wrote: One differance between Russ on Prosperio, and Cruz and Pert, is that Cruz and Pert slaughtered their home worlds in response to uprisings on it. this was basicly them failing one of their core responsaibilities. it IS a differance
So the crime is letting a rebellion happen on their homeworld and not the indiscriminate slaughter of Imperial citizens? That is not what the HH books made it seem like.
we've heard multiple stories of worlds slaughtered indiscriminatly during the crusade, some primarchs had their own opinions but the Emperor did not seem inclined to step in and apply punishment. IF we accept that Pert and Cruz really where going to be punished (i never happened after all. and in Pert's case it's ENTIRELY possiable it was all in his head) then we must look at the various factors at play here, and yes it does seem that the rebellion on their homeworld is an important distinction. this isn't to say the loss of life isn't a factor, but rather it's a matter of "as the appointed governer of this world you let the system get so out of hand, there was no apparent recourse other then the complete annialation of your world?" ANY Imperial governer who let that happen to a world would be on the chopping block.
Scott-S6 wrote: Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.
Those civilians weren't loyal Imperials though, so they don't really matter. It makes no sense why Curze and Perturabo would get 40k arrest warrants for genociding their home worlds, but when Russ does it (despite not being ordered to by the emperor) it's perfectly fine apparently.
But all of the civilians that would have needed slaughtering to expunge all trace of the missing primarchs were. So it's not exactly a big surprise for Russ to not blink at those orders.
you're assuming mass purges of citizens would be nesscary. likely the only things purged would be fleet and army elements that accompanied those legions, and if the legions where destroyed fighting a xenos force like some have suggested (yet again the proof Russ had a hand in their demise? it's thin) then there wouldn't be much to clean up. the Rememeberances frtom what I've been able to read, a new thing towards the end of the crusade
The legion's homeworld is going to just forget that the legion and the primarch were a thing? And never mention that to anyone ever? Seems pretty implausible.
As for the suggestion that they just got beaten by an enemy - the traitor legions were not expunged as thoroughly as the two lost legions. Simple failure seems utterly inadequate to explain their legacy.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.
I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.
I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.
disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)
Yes it is, if he keeps ignoring the evidence he isn't arguing from logic. He keeps saying Russ was trigger happy but if he was, why did he wish for Magnus to get the lowest punishment at Nikaea, if he was trigger happy he'd want Magnus sanctioned there heavily. Maleficarum scares the fenrisians, its obvious that he just wanted Magnus to stop, if he let his anger towards Magnus cloud his actions he'd advocated a very extreme punishment at Nikaea.
I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.
I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.
The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
He wasn't trigger happy at all, he said he wanted Magnus to receive the least amount of punishment before Nikaea, that is not triggeer happy. He only hated Magnus after Magnus killed his warriors, it was nothing compared to Perty and Dorn. There was no reason for Russ to consider things more carefully. You think that because you know Horus went traitor, If Horus never went traitor why would Russ consider it at all. That's where your logic falls away, you are thinking with hindsight. Because Horus went traitor you think Russ should have known that somehow and therefore not trusted his orders. Imagine the Emperor turned to chaos, should Russ have considered not following the Emperors orders. That Horus would turn was nearly as unthinkable as the Emperor himself turning.
Russ and his wolves slaughters loyalists before, they killed many World Eaters, it was their job.
Don't fling around the "bias" argument. You are not looking so un-biased yourself. I mean its probably because you are a space wolf player.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.
I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.
I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.
disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)
Yes it is, if he keeps ignoring the evidence he isn't arguing from logic. He keeps saying Russ was trigger happy but if he was, why did he wish for Magnus to get the lowest punishment at Nikaea, if he was trigger happy he'd want Magnus sanctioned there heavily. Maleficarum scares the fenrisians, its obvious that he just wanted Magnus to stop, if he let his anger towards Magnus cloud his actions he'd advocated a very extreme punishment at Nikaea.
Russ is a attack dog. Its not his fault. He was written that way. Magnus did nothing wrong 2018.
Look. Everyone was wrong. No one was right. The only winner was chaos. And in reality, Tzeentch. He perfectly played the massive egos of the primmys to chaos's own end. And for that, your beloved Russ is as guilty as Magnus.
SHUPPET wrote: I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me
I never said it was an objective position, I actually said the opposite a few comments before... But the arguments he's made are contrary to the lore.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.
I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.
The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.
He wasn't trigger happy at all, he said he wanted Magnus to receive the least amount of punishment before Nikaea, that is not triggeer happy. He only hated Magnus after Magnus killed his warriors, it was nothing compared to Perty and Dorn. There was no reason for Russ to consider things more carefully. You think that because you know Horus went traitor, If Horus never went traitor why would Russ consider it at all. That's where your logic falls away, you are thinking with hindsight. Because Horus went traitor you think Russ should have known that somehow and therefore not trusted his orders. Imagine the Emperor turned to chaos, should Russ have considered not following the Emperors orders. That Horus would turn was nearly as unthinkable as the Emperor himself turning.
Russ and his wolves slaughters loyalists before, they killed many World Eaters, it was their job.
Don't fling around the "bias" argument. You are not looking so un-biased yourself. I mean its probably because you are a space wolf player.
I'm not emotionally invested in my legions Primarchs etc. I accept their weaknesses failures etc. I accept for instance Russ was a hypocrite when it came to his own use of the warp, because the lore shows that. I know that the Lion even though he sucker punched Russ is at least his equal and is possibly even better in a dual.
SHUPPET wrote: I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me
I never said it was an objective position, I actually said the opposite a few comments before... But the arguments he's made are contrary to the lore.
We've seen your comments in the background lore section, you tend to argue contrary from lore as well.
BrianDavion wrote: disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)
It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?
SHUPPET wrote: I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me
I never said it was an objective position, I actually said the opposite a few comments before... But the arguments he's made are contrary to the lore.
We've seen your comments in the background lore section, you tend to argue contrary from lore as well.
Yeah, go find a comment/quote where I do that. I here that a lot, never once been quoted doing that though, out of all of you 'we'. So forgive me If I don't take that seriously. If you had ever had an argument with me you'd know I admit I'm wrong all the time (I have an immense amount of people that would love to prove me wrong), if someone shows me lore that contradicts my argument, I'll admit I'm wrong. Even the people that can't stand me will admit that. I mean its ridiculous, people say I am too literal with the lore all the time and then they say I argue contrary to the lore. I quote from the lore more than anyone, so much so that people have started moaning about the length of the quotes I use. I mean you're just wrong, you've never even had an argument with me and you are just parroting what other people say, yeah people who have at least argued with me.
BrianDavion wrote: disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)
It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?
Very probably. He sucked pretty hard at understanding people's emotional reactions to things he did.
Orblivion wrote: It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?
I think so... I can think of no other reason for doing something like that.
It is pretty obvious that the emperor wanted rivalries among the legions. That way they all keep an eye on each other so that he doesn't have to, and it serves to make the eventual purges (ala thunder warriors) that much easier.
Scott-S6 wrote: I'm also not sure what sort of censure you expected Russ to get at that point when Prospero was immediately followed by the full extent of the Heresy being revealed. Different priorities at that point.
So Russ gets a pass for atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH, whereas Curze and Perturabo don't get a pass for their atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH?
In my view, Russ got a pass for Prospero because the loyalists didn't want to alienate another legion and possibly turn them to Horus' side. Perturabo and Curze had already thrown in their lot with Horus so it was easy to call them out on it. Had Prospero happened at any other time, Russ and the Space Wolves would have had to do a Penance Crusade at the very least, if not be declared traitors outright. Putting your own vendettas and your own legion's rivalries in front of the good of the Imperium is generally looked down upon. Which is why the Dark Angels go to such lengths to cover it up whenever they do it.
Dorn was right to call out Russ on his hypocrisy. The Blood Angels and White Scars have always been pro-psykers, and they didn't want another repeat of Nikaea (which almost kicked off the HH early), so when Russ started saying "well my psykers are different" it was easier to just go along with him and say "yeah mine are too, not like those nasty thousand sons" than to start an argument with him and potentially cause another schism.
BrianDavion wrote: disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)
It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?
Very probably. He sucked pretty hard at understanding people's emotional reactions to things he did.
I don't think he did at all. I think he knew very well what he was doing.
BrianDavion wrote: disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)
It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?
Maybe but I don't think there was a rivalry in the case of the Word Bearers and Ultramarines until AFTER that incident, and afterwards it was a very one sided rivlary.
So Russ gets a pass for atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH, whereas Curze and Perturabo don't get a pass for their atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH?
Both of the incidents with Curze and Perturabo happened before the Heresy was revealed.
Prospero happened at almost the same time as Istvaan V.
Very probably. He sucked pretty hard at understanding people's emotional reactions to things he did.
I don't think he did at all. I think he knew very well what he was doing.
He knew that picking those particular legions would provoke a response. I'm not sure that actively driving them away from him was the response he wanted.
Manchu wrote: Canonical sources explicitly state that Magnus and his leading officers were probably corrupt by the time of the Council of Nikaea. That is the end of that argument. Those who want to ignore the sources will continue to do so no matter what, it seems.
The remaining question is why Magnus, if corrupted by the Warp before Horus's betrayal much less the destruction of Prospero, did not simply pledge himself to Chaos before those events. This is an area where we have to speculate. The only thing that is clear is that Magnus held his continued practice of sorcery in higher regard than the commands of his father. Obviously, this does not mean that he considered himself a traitor.
I would suggest that as Magnus delved deeper into sorcery after Nikaea he also sank deeper into denial. We know from the XV Legion's Index entry that Magnus had been in some sort of psychic contact with the Emperor through the Warp before the Emperor came to Prospero. There is also no reason to believe that Magnus had a strained relationship with the Emperor before Nikaea, although there is no reason to believe they had a particularly close relationship, either. (Although we do know that Russ, Mortarion, and Corax mistrusted him and his Legion.) In any case, Magnus eagerly joined the Crusade.
But after Nikaea, he found his loyalty tested and he chose disobedience. We do not know whether or how he struggled with his conscience over this decision except that he truly believed sorcery could be mastered and was no more inherently dangerous than technology. (There is a striking parallel here, however, between sorcery and artificial intelligence.) It seems to me that this was Magnus's rationalization of his betrayal: the Emperor erred to caution and must be educated. On the one hand, what staggering arrogance he showed in this attitude. On the other hand, he appears to have been a psyker of the same caliber as the Emperor or Eldrad Ulthran. In any case, Magnus seems to have justified his own treacherous curiosity by telling himself that his research would ultimately benefit mankind. Paradoxically, the more he betrayed the Emperor the more important his self-image of loyalty became to him.
In this way, the denial of Magnus was not simply passive. He did not merely absolve himself of the guilt of his betraying his oath but equated this betrayal with a higher form of loyalty. This was a master stroke of Chaos. For just as the Emperor became aware of the power of Magnus's mind through the Warp, Index Astartes tell us other forces became aware of him as well. It seems to me that those forces granted Magnus his vision of Horus's treachery in order to vindicate Magnus's false sense of loyalty, to make him believe that he had finally found proof that he was right to break his oath and continue his studies. As Index Astartes tells us, his sorcerous message of warning to Terra was to be his "moment of triumph." But these same powers, taking advantage of his willful blindness to his own treachery, obscured the role that he was himself to play. And Magnus, in his thralldom to the Warp through sorcery, did not guess that the very use of these powers allowed them to control him.
Instead of saving Terra, this message was a blow to the Emperor. Magnus's spell was designed to penetrate the hexagrammic wards of the Palace and ultimately allowed for the invasion of Terra itself by armies of daemons. Although the timeline is not entirely clear, we know that Magnus also tried to intervene with Horus personally within the Warp at the moment of his fall. (This most likely will be shown to have occurred before the disastrous message to Terra.) But this plan, as 1hadhq (perhaps unintentionally) shows in the quotations from False Gods that he included above, also catastrophically backfired. Lorgar's attempts to corrupt Horus were clumsy. Horus was not a man to be led into any action.
But Magnus's intervention helped push Horus over the brink. Erebus failed to convince Horus in all aspects but one: he pointed out that Magnus was also treacherous. How hollow must Magnus's warning that Horus should trust the Emperor to know what is right have sounded to Horus, knowing that Magnus himself did not trust the Emperor in this way and had clearly violated their father's decrees at Nikaea? Suddenly terrified at the prospect of Horus's fall, Magnus was no doubt completely sincere in his attempt to prevent it. But by his own disloyalty he had forfeit any credibility with Horus. Magnus learned in anguish that betrayal and fidelity cannot coexist in a man. Perhaps this explains the urgency of Magnus's warning to Terra. Faced with impotence to save his brother, Magnus was also finally confronted with the reality of his own corruption. The use of sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus's fall in fact (no longer a mere vision of the future) was Magnus's last chance to prove not only that sorcery could be used to the benefit of man but to also prove that his own "higher loyalty" should overcome his particular disobedience.
There also remains the question of Russ. Was Russ sent to destroy Prospero or to merely chain Magnus? Despite claims to the contrary, I have already mentioned in this thread that both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons entries of the Index Astartes say that the truth of Prospero is clouded by perspective. (As I have also already mentioned, Abnett has said that this sense of mystery will not be resolved by A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.) Existing canon suggests that the Emperor was furious with Magnus and trusted Russ with the mission to Prospero for the very reason that Russ had always been suspicious of Magnus. I've also pointed out many times that Abnett claims the Space Wolves were bred for the purpose of taking out another Legion.
As 1hadhq shows above, however, Horus claims to Fulgrim that the Emperor wanted Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra. Is Horus trustworthy on this point? Maybe so. It would seem to make sense that the Emperor would rather deal with Magnus in person rather than (seemingly) hastily kill him. Also, Horus would have no reason to lie to Fulgrim--at least not this lie. Fulgrim's betrayal was always premised more on love for Horus than hate for their father. Finally, we know that a fleet of Black Ships accompanied Russ to Prospero "with orders to carry back to Terra any pskyers or sorcerers left on the planet after the Thousand Sons had been dealt with," along with Custodes ("a sure sign that the Primarch's mission had the full authority of the Emperor," Visions p.98) and Sisters of Silence (cover of Prospero Burns). (I think we can safely say that the Emperor expected Magnus to resist.)
But maybe we are misinterpreting what Horus is saying here. We tend to assume that Magnus was going to be brought back to Terra for some kind of trial but when we look at the evidence, that does not seem likely. Index Astartes says sorcery was made an unforgivable offense against humanity at Nikaea. It also related that the Emperor said to him: "If you treat with the warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial Records for all time." (Visions p94) Again, the verdict at Nikaea was that "Magnus was to cease all sorcery and psychics on pain of death." (Visions p.97) In light of this, it becomes apparent that there would be no other reason to bring Magnus to Terra other than to be executed by the Emperor himself.
So in what way did Horus actually trick Russ? Did Horus subvert the Emperor's purpose? Considering that the Emperor's purpose was most likely to kill Magnus and destroy his Legion, no. Horus simply convinced Russ, by expanding upon the true depths of Magnus's use of sorcery, that Magnus's warning was completely false--which, according to Index Astartes, both Russ and the Emperor already believed anyway. He also advised Russ that Magnus, being a traitor, would most certainly resist so that he should not even give the Cyclops a chance to surrender. Instead, Russ should bombard the planet and then invade. Which eminently sensible military stratgey Russ did indeed pursue.
This is not the same thing as convincing Russ to kill Magnus outright, as Horus grandly claims. The Emperor and Russ were already convinced that (1) Magnus was a traitor, (2) Magnus would resist imprisonment, and (3) Magnus deserved death. Commencing a surprise attack on Prospero was not in violation of his orders to bring Magnus back to Terra. Indeed, Russ never did kill Magnus but simply completely disabled him by breaking his back (if the legends are true), which is likely the only way you could capture a Primarch who refused to surrender. So how exactly did Horus trick Russ? I think Horus's statement to Maloghurst quoted above turns out to be an example of Horus's very high opinion of himself and his schemes. If anything, Horus got lucky on this account. The Wolves were on Terra at this point. The Emperor sending Russ to Prospero (along with some Sisters of Silence and Custodes) would significantly weaken Terra's defenses. Horus does not seem to have done anything to actually distract Russ or make his campaign against Magnus run any longer than it actually would. So again, Horus seems to be implying that this is all a part of his plan when in reality the Warp Gods and Magnus's arrogance are actually at work.
And why did Magnus never attempt to surrender to Russ? Actually, I would bet he did try this and that we will see this in the upcoming books. That, in my opinion, is one of the mysteries of conflicting perspective that we will see tragically play out. Did Magnus finally completely realize his fall and repent? Or did he begin to do so and then, in anger and frustration, insist on the justice of his research into sorcery? Did the Curse of the Wulfen prevent Russ and his Legion from seeing reason and accepting a proposed surrender? We may find out more in the upcoming novels. Existing accounts testify to the intense fury of the Space Wolves. In the "Lament of Prospero" as "quoted" in Index Astartes, Space Wolves are described as losing their minds but fighting on anyway out of sheer bloodlust. ("Lament of Prospero" seems to be an account from the Space Wolves' point of view. It also claims Magnus made his bargain with Chaos before the personal combat with Russ.) The other mystery is how a world of precognitive sorcerers could not foresee the arrival and attack of Russ. Perhaps the Black Ships and Sisters of Silence played some role in this? Perhaps the Gods of Chaos blinded the Thousand Sons so that they would be at the brink of destruction and so finally give themselves to the Warp not as masters of sorcery but as slaves.
Manchu wrote: Canonical sources explicitly state that Magnus and his leading officers were probably corrupt by the time of the Council of Nikaea. That is the end of that argument. Those who want to ignore the sources will continue to do so no matter what, it seems.
It's difficult not to ignore them when you don't know what they are, and the person who claims they exist didn't share them.
The quote is supplied with a link to the thread in which the sources were discussed at length. To wit:
None can say when Magnus was tainted by the warp, but his actions suggest that his corruption was well progressed by the time of the Council of Nikaea. It is probable that his senior officers and Librarians were also corrupt at this point. Magnus had no problems persuading his Legion to collude with his plan to secretly continue their study of the warp.
That doesn't end discussion on the matter though, a writer stating that their actions were "suggestive" of "probably" cause, is not definitive of anything, and doesn't end the debate at all.
I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the latest possible date of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.
But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.
Manchu wrote: I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the earliest possible moment of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.
But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.
Unknowingly "corrupted" by serving chaos and not even realizing it? Oh yes absolutely.
But Magnus was never a willing agent of chaos until he decided to step outside of his pyramid at the Battle of Prospero and make his final deal with Tzeentch to save his legion and what was left of his people. I don't see how you could read Master of Prospero and even think that Magnus served chaos willingly before that point.
Your link actually makes my point quite well (albeit that I should have said Istvaan III)
Nostramo's destruction is 984.M30
Olympia is 004.M31
Prospero is 734004.M31
Istvaan III is 005.M31
Note that Nostramo is twenty years before Prospero - it apparently took ages for news to reach terra and any kind of decision.
Anything that might have happen over Russ and Prospero is going to be forgotten once Horus is in open rebellion.
Apologies, I must have misread the year of Nostromo's destruction to be the same as Olympia's.
Still, I wass correct about Olympia, and the fact that Olympia happened only 6 months to a year before Prospero and the very differing reactions to those two incidents speaks volumes. Especially since the HH didn't start in full until a year later.
As I have had occasion to say many times before, the Ruinous Powers do not require one's consent.
Manchu wrote: It's easy to want him to be innocent and if you insist Magnus's shallowest rationalizations as his true intentions, perhaps you could view him as innocent. Do not forget, however, that innocence proves nothing. And the idea that Magnus is innocent (up until his pact with Tzeentch) is absurd. The "reality" (if you will) of the 40k universe is that Chaos does not require the consent of its servants. In the end, Chaos has no willing servants--only slaves.
First, the guilt of Magnus and his Legion is the most important factor in justifying the Space Wolves' actions at Propsero. Second, I speak directly to their actions above. Shuppet seemed only read the first few dozen words quoted above, but several thousand follow.
Manchu wrote: First, the guilt of Magnus and his Legion is the most important factor in justifying the Space Wolves' actions at Propsero. Second, I speak directly to their actions above. Shuppet seemed only read the first few dozen words quoted above, but several thousand follow.
So you are saying that Russ disobeying orders and attempting to kill his brother, his entire legion, and everything else on the planet, innocent or not is justified because Magnus was an unwitting pawn to a power that neither knew existed at that point?
Killing a man in prison for murder is still murder itself, regardless of whether he deserves it or not.
Also, I don't buy the argument that Russ was "just following orders" from Horus and shouldn't be held accountable. The Space Marine Chapters that fought against the Imperium at the behest of the Astral Claws during the Badab War were "just following orders" and were heavily censured for it regardless. We don't know exactly what Horus said to Russ to get Russ to attack Prospero instead of arrest Magnus, but I cannot help but think Russ' massive hatred of Magnus played a huge role in Horus being able to convince Russ so easily.
Manchu wrote: Pray tell, how did Russ disobey orders?
Russ was ordered by the Emperor to go to Prospero and arrest Magnus and disarm the 1K sons, he was supposed to bring Magnus back to Terra for trial. Instead he went there and killed every living thing on the planet, including innocent civilians, and attempted to kill both Magnus and his legion.
Is there some reason you are leaving out the crucial point that Horus "updated" the Imperial orders?
Russ was present at Nikaea when the Emperor threatened to destroy Magnus if Magnus disobeyed the law of the Council, which he did. Magnus was an outright traitor who had been warned by the Emperor personally about not violating the ban on pain of death. Russ also witnessed the Emperor's rage when Magnus's perfidy broke the hexagrammatic wards at the Palace. Finally, Russ had no reason whatsoever to doubt Horus's loyalty or to question Horus's action on behalf of the Emperor, since the Emperor had all but appointed Horus regent before locking himself away on Terra. There is simply no case against Russ, especially since we know he tried to offer Magnus a way out before the attack and he regretted what happened after he learned of Horus's perfidy afterwards.
Manchu wrote: Is there some reason you are leaving out the crucial point that Horus "updated" the Imperial orders?
From an earlier post:
Also, I don't buy the argument that Russ was "just following orders" from Horus and shouldn't be held accountable. The Space Marine Chapters that fought against the Imperium at the behest of the Astral Claws during the Badab War were "just following orders" and were heavily censured for it regardless. We don't know exactly what Horus said to Russ to get Russ to attack Prospero instead of arrest Magnus, but I cannot help but think Russ' massive hatred of Magnus played a huge role in Horus being able to convince Russ so easily.
Manchu wrote: Russ was present at Nikaea when the Emperor threatened to destroy Magnus if Magnus disobeyed the law of the Council, which he did. Magnus was an outright traitor who had been warned by the Emperor personally about not violating the ban on pain of death. Russ also witnessed the Emperor's rage when Magnus's perfidy broke the hexagrammatic wards at the Palace.
But it was not Russ' place to decide that he was judge, jury, and executioner. Especially when the Emperor told Russ to arrest Magnus, not kill him.
Manchu wrote: There is simply no case against Russ, especially since we know he tried to offer Magnus a way out before the attack...
A feeble attempt at a surrender demand that never reached Magnus.
Manchu wrote: ...and he regretted what happened after he learned of Horus's perfidy afterwards.
‘You think me a fool, brother?’ said Russ, with dangerous innocence.
‘I think you are reckless. I think you are in danger of treading the same road as Magnus, or Lorgar, cavorting with priests. Where has your conviction gone? Where is the wolf who spoke at Nikaea?’
This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. ‘Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?’
‘You express regret for that now?’ said Dorn. ‘Last I heard you were crowing about it.‘
I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did. When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus’ sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.
Your position is inconsistent. You want Russ to follow orders sometimes but you want him to disobey orders at other times and this whole tangent started with you criticizing Russ for disobeying orders (which actually never even happened).
Manchu wrote: Your position is inconsistent. You want Russ to follow orders sometimes but you want him to disobey orders at other times and this whole tangent started with you criticizing Russ for disobeying orders (which actually never even happened).
No, I want Russ to follow orders given to him by the Emperor. The fact that Russ was 'tricked' by Horus into serving chaos is as irrelevant as the fact that Magnus was tricked into serving chaos by Tzeentch. Magnus put himself into that whole situation to begin with and it is largely his fault. But it doesn't change the fact that the Battle of Prospero was wrong, on multiple levels, and the Wolves were hailed as heroes because of it, despite other legions doing similar things and being condemned for it. Much like the 1k Sons breaking the edict at Nikaea and being condemned for it despite the other legions (including the wolves) breaking the edict as well and getting away scott-free.
Like I said, killing a man in prison for murder is still murder itself, regardless of whether he deserves it or not.
The entire situation is much more nuanced than simply "Thousand Sons bad guys, wolves good guys." Both of the legions (and Primarchs) were "bad guys" and Magnus was unlucky enough to fall on the traitor side of the equation, while Russ was lucky enough to fall on the "loyalist" side despite doing things that very well could have gotten him called a traitor in less dire circumstances.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
Magnus destroyed the golden throne and ensured humanities inevitable fall to Chaos.
I don't give a feth how sorry he was afterwards that is a mistake that you don't come back from.
Russ exceeded his orders but bring in Magnus was the right thing to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'
Russ was never ordered to sanction Angron.
He contronted Angron because HE felt he should not because he was given orders from the Emperor
There was no Imperial edict against what the Wolves did on Propsero. To the contrary, the Emepror bred them for it. And there are hints he had unleashed them twice before. By contrast, Magnus broke the law of the Emperor's own council, a law spoken by the Emperor's own lips followed by a sanction of death explicitly addressed by the Emperor personally to Magnus. Magnus was too arrogant and ignorant to know he was already a slave to darkness but he did know in no uncertain terms that he was committing a capital offense. Once more by contrast Russ acted according to his purpose and with all good faith pursuant to orders that he had no reason to doubt were issued by the Emperor.
Manchu wrote: Once more by contrast Russ acted according to his purpose and with all good faith pursuant to orders that he had no reason to doubt were issued by the Emperor.
Lest you forget, Russ also broke the edict at Nikaea (in a less spectacular manner I admit, but still did so).
I also find it interesting you consider Magnus being an unwitting pawn to chaos irrelevant, but at the same time Russ being an unwitting pawn to chaos somehow excuses his responsibility?
Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ. Only that Russ was given orders to ARREST Magnus by the Emperor. On his way to do so, he spoke to Horus, and then continued on his way intent on killing his brother instead of arresting him, despite the protestations of Valdor who said that it wasn't what the emperor ordered. Russ puts his foot down, and Valdor goes along with him, seeming to say "well I don't like Magnus much either, so if we are going to kill him let's do it right."
Magnus was not tricked into serving Chaos. To end the Flesh Curse, he foolishly thought he could outsmart the denizens of the warp when making a deal with them. Something the Emperor told him not to do. It was the same arrogance and lust for knowledge and power that lead up to Prospero, one mistake after another.
As for Russ not following his orders and nearly killing Magnus, just didn't happen that way. Russ's orders were to deal with the Thousand Sons and bring Magnus back to the Emperor. And if Magnus had surrendered upon his arrival and come along meekly, that is what would have happened.
Would the Wolves have still burned Prospero? Probably. Between the Editic of Nikea and the Emperor's Proclamation to Russ, it wasn't a simple mission of bringing back one man to stand trail. It was a censure action and we all know that innocence is no defense for heresy in the 30th or 40th Millennium.
Finally, when Magnus took to the field of battle, he came in with the full force of his Sorcery, his crime, for all to see. At that point, it was a matter of survival that he be put down.
This entire argument is becoming circular, so I am just going to sum up my views and leave the argument here.
Magnus put himself into that whole situation to begin with and it is largely his fault. But it doesn't change the fact that the Battle of Prospero was wrong, on multiple levels, and the Wolves were hailed as heroes because of it, despite other legions doing similar things and being condemned for it. The entire situation is much more nuanced than simply "Thousand Sons bad guys, Wolves good guys." Both of the legions (and Primarchs) were "bad guys" and Magnus was unlucky enough to fall on the traitor side of the equation, while Russ was lucky enough to fall on the "loyalist" side despite doing things that very well could have gotten him called a traitor in less dire circumstances.
Also, I don't buy the argument that Russ was "just following orders" from Horus and shouldn't be held accountable. The Space Marine Chapters that fought against the Imperium at the behest of the Astral Claws during the Badab War were "just following orders" and were heavily censured for it regardless. We don't know exactly what Horus said to Russ to get Russ to attack Prospero instead of arrest Magnus, but I cannot help but think Russ' massive hatred of Magnus played a huge role in Horus being able to convince Russ so easily.
Killing a man in prison for murder is still murder itself, regardless of whether he deserves it or not. It was not Russ' place to act as judge, jury, and executioner when he was explicitly ordered by the Emperor to arrest Magnus, not kill him.
This is not about what Magnus deserved, this is about Russ overstepping his bounds and pushing a loyalist legion into the arms of chaos to fulfill a vendetta.
If you disagree with my assessment of this that is totally fine, but don't pretend that my opinion of a very subjective situation is any less valid than yours.
Many millions, perhaps trillions, of souls have been the unwitting pawns of Chaos - but at Nikaea, the Emperor looked directly at Magnus, and, speaking his name, personally swore to destroy him if he broke faith with the Emperor's edict. This was because the Council was called specifically to deal with Magnus and his Legion. The Cyclops and his Thousand Sons understood this completely; hence their wounded pride. Hence Magnus's inability to even open his mouth much less, as a loyal son and subject must needs do, surrender himself to his brother when Russ duly arrived to make good on the Emperor's oath. The issue with Magnus is not that Powers greater than him used him without his knowledge but that his own disloyalty, his own arrogance, his own blindness led not just to a mistake but to a moral collapse - a fall, a betrayal. It is no coincidence or mistake that Magnus now sits upon the throne of a Daemon World, reigning as a Daemon Prince.
He made sure that they had no warning of the oncoming fleet and only came out of hiding when almsot all were dead and the planet was burning. Up untilo that point he did everything posisble to ensure that he and his legion were destroyedby the Emperor's forces - apparently out of shame and knowledge ot his own misjudgement,
He could have thrown himself on the mercy of the oncoming fleet or warned the Thousand Sons and the population. He did neither
Manchu wrote: I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the latest possible date of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.
But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.
Are you this obnoxious with every disagreement you have? I'm entirely neutral... but your "facts" aren't facts however. There is literally zero confirmation of Magnus's corruption, just the "suspicions" of "probable" behavior from a single writer. Give me something legitimate I can actually reference to end this dispute and I'm all the way behind it, I'm not against you here.
Regardless of who was most at fault for Prospero i think that its safe to conclude that Magnus was entirely the wrong advocate for the Librarius .
The Khan Sanguinus and yes even stubborn jackass Russ could have worked together to create a Librarius that would have been palpable to the Emperor.
Magnus a man who did'nt believe that there where limits and who laughed off warnings about the dangers of the Warp doomed the Librarius project from the start due to his presence alone.
Yes Magnus was the greatest psyker next to the emperor but he lacked the humbleness to effectively win people over who did not already agree with him.
godking wrote: Regardless of who was most at fault for Prospero i think that its safe to conclude that Magnus was entirely the wrong advocate for the Librarius .
The Khan Sanguinus and yes even stubborn jackass Russ could have worked together to create a Librarius that would have been palpable to the Emperor.
Magnus a man who did'nt believe that there where limits and who laughed off warnings about the dangers of the Warp doomed the Librarius project from the start due to his presence alone.
Yes Magnus was the greatest psyker next to the emperor but he lacked the humbleness to effectively win people over who did not already agree with him.
something essentially said outright in Wolfsbane BTW
Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.
Acting like your interpretative meaning of a writers speculation and musings on the probability of something, turns your perspective into a hard fact that cannot be disputed
Declaring anyone with a differing opinion including neutral parties to be "picking the facts that suits them" while at the same time displaying a blatant bias and disregard for nuance
Rewriting the definition of emphyrical evidence to mean "anything that suits my perspective no matter how shaky"
Doing it all in an unnecessarily combative tone and then declaring yourself the victim when someone points out the obnoxious manner in which you're talking to people.
Why are you so invested in this? Try to be a bit more rational because your argument is very far from as concrete as you seem to think it is. Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.
Manchu wrote: I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the latest possible date of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.
But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.
There is also a lot of evidence of Astartes turning before they even realise they had. Perturabo for instance wanted nothing to do with daemons, being disgusted by the III legion, still showing concern for loyalists and having a big problem with the fact he was a traitor. Angron as well, he never spoke to daemons or used intermediaries, never cared at all about chaos until he turned into a daemon prince at Cath. I think turning to chaos is more complex and drawn out than making a deal, it seems to be a long process in most cases.
Mr Morden wrote: He could have thrown himself on the mercy of the oncoming fleet or warned the Thousand Sons and the population. He did neither.
Excellent point, and well said. Magnus was so deeply in denial about his own limitations, morally as well as psychically, that he sacrificed everything on an alter to Tzeentch.
godking wrote: Magnus a man who did'nt believe that there where limits and who laughed off warnings about the dangers of the Warp doomed the Librarius project from the start due to his presence alone.
Completely correct. In the same vein, the Council of Nikaea was about him. We talk about it like it was about the legions generally, like for the sake of polite relations among the leaders of the Imperium, but the Emperor made it completely clear that this was actually about Magnus personally.
Formosa wrote: finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it
Yes indeed, there is after all a difference between heroes and villains. Magnus is a villain. He's an interesting one, and not a moustache twirler. In his arrogance, he hoped for better things and longed for his ideals. The road to hell ...
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think turning to chaos is more complex and drawn out than making a deal, it seems to be a long process in most cases.
This certainly true. Seeds are sown long before the harvest is finally reaped.
thing is good villians with more depth then mustach twirling disney villians do tend to have people sympathize for them, even when the author thinks maybe they shouldn't. I remember reading an interview with the writers for DS9 that they where SHOCKED how much support Gul Dukat had among fans, because yeah he could justify it. even though the intent was always "villians are not people who think they are evil, they can always justify their actions"
Yes, it's one thing to like the character becausehe's entertaining and fascinating; it's quite another thing to claim the character's actions are justified. Gul Dukat is a really good example.
Formosa wrote: Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.
Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.
SHUPPET wrote: Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.
In all fairness, I agree that Magnus was WAY corrupted by that point, probably even to the point where he was irredeemable. My argument was simply that Russ overstepped his authority by attempting to kill Magnus and purge Prospero, when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. I also don't think that "well Horus tricked him" is a strong enough excuse to let Russ off the hook entirely, because in all likelihood the reason WHY Horus was able to trick him successfully was because of Russ' strong hatred of Magnus. I also was trying to point out that what Russ did could have very well gotten him and his entire legion declared traitors if it happened at a different time, which people are trying to debate and I don't understand why.
Manchu wrote: You can't understand why the SW and the Emperor's Talons did what they did without understanding what provoked and justified it.
Provoked? Absolutely. Justified? No. Stepping outside of your authority to mete out extrajudicial punishment to someone you have a vendetta against is never justified no matter what they did. Horus didn't have the authority to order Russ to attack another legion, only the Emperor had the power to order that and we know that he did NOT order Russ to attack the Thousand Sons. Russ was empowered to bring Magnus back to Terra alive, nothing more.
Formosa wrote: Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.
Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.
SHUPPET wrote: Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.
In all fairness, I agree that Magnus was WAY corrupted by that point, probably even to the point where he was irredeemable. My argument was simply that Russ overstepped his authority by attempting to kill Magnus and purge Prospero, when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. I also don't think that "well Horus tricked him" is a strong enough excuse to let Russ off the hook entirely, because in all likelihood the reason WHY Horus was able to trick him successfully was because of Russ' strong hatred of Magnus. I also was trying to point out that what Russ did could have very well gotten him and his entire legion declared traitors if it happened at a different time, which people are trying to debate and I don't understand why.
the only person trying to pretend is you if you think Russ did anything wrong.
Dude you are sooooooo not neutral. Okay still think he did something wrong but saying this "when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. " when multiple people have proven you wrong, Horus had full authority to order Russ to do what he did and Russ had no authority not to do what he ordered. Horus was warmaster, he had 'full' authority when it comes to issues of the Great Crusade. Ask yourself this, if Horus did not have the authority to do what he did, why was Russ never called into dispute because of it, not even a mention, Malcador talked to him after that, he never said 'yeah you shouldn't have dome that.' The Emperor even condoned what Russ did:
Malcador and the Emperor:
"Alpharius… my son, what chance did you give my dream? Ah, even when war presses in from all
sides, my sons still seek to press their advantage. They are like the feudal lords of old, scenting
opportunity for their own advancement in the fires of adversity.
The regret pained Malcador’s thoughts.
‘Russ still plans to fight Horus eye to eye,’ said Malcador. ‘He sends my Knights to guide his blade and
no words of mine can sway him from his course.’
You think he should not fight Horus?
‘Russ is your executioner,’ said Malcador tactfully. ‘But his axe falls a little too readily these days.
Magnus felt it, now Horus will feel it.’
Two rebel angels. His axe falls on those deserving its smile.
‘And what happens when Russ takes it upon himself to decide who is loyal and who deserves
execution?’
Russ is true-hearted, one of the few I know will never fall.
‘You suspect others may prove false?’
To my eternal regret, I do.
‘Who?’
Another long pause made Malcador fear his question would remain unanswered, but at last the Emperor
replied.
The Khan makes a virtue of being unknowable, of being the mystery that none can answer. Some
among his Legion have already embraced treachery, and others may yet.
‘What would you have me do, my lord?’
Keep watching him, Malcador. Watch the Khan more closely than any other.
I got to thinking if sending the Space Wolves was the worst decision the Emperor could have made regarding Magnus.
I decided no. It'd be pretty funny to read an alt-history version where the Death Guard, World Eaters, or Night Lords had been tasked with bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra.
The Alpha Legion might have sent a party barge to Prospero with a sign saying "Free Magick books inside!" filled with Sisters of Silence.
EmpNortonII wrote: I got to thinking if sending the Space Wolves was the worst decision the Emperor could have made regarding Magnus.
I decided no. It'd be pretty funny to read an alt-history version where the Death Guard, World Eaters, or Night Lords had been tasked with bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra.
The Alpha Legion might have sent a party barge to Prospero with a sign saying "Free Magick books inside!" filled with Sisters of Silence.
Depends, if they got the same message from Horus I think it would have ended up the same.
Formosa wrote: Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.
Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.
SHUPPET wrote: Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.
In all fairness, I agree that Magnus was WAY corrupted by that point, probably even to the point where he was irredeemable. My argument was simply that Russ overstepped his authority by attempting to kill Magnus and purge Prospero, when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. I also don't think that "well Horus tricked him" is a strong enough excuse to let Russ off the hook entirely, because in all likelihood the reason WHY Horus was able to trick him successfully was because of Russ' strong hatred of Magnus. I also was trying to point out that what Russ did could have very well gotten him and his entire legion declared traitors if it happened at a different time, which people are trying to debate and I don't understand why.
Stop talking nonsense, I’m not pretending anything and if that’s what you got from what I wrote then I agree with others here and you are showing very clear bias.
Manchu wrote: You can't understand why the SW and the Emperor's Talons did what they did without understanding what provoked and justified it.
Provoked? Absolutely. Justified? No. Stepping outside of your authority to mete out extrajudicial punishment to someone you have a vendetta against is never justified no matter what they did. Horus didn't have the authority to order Russ to attack another legion, only the Emperor had the power to order that and we know that he did NOT order Russ to attack the Thousand Sons. Russ was empowered to bring Magnus back to Terra alive, nothing more.
False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'
Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'
There are other quotes I have in regards to this but the search function does not want to work for me at all. One about what Ahriman reveals to Wyrdmake before he feeds his soul to the terrors of the warp, where Russ receives the order from Horus and Valdor urges Russ to follow his command.
Horus is Warmaster and speaks with the authority of the Emperor to disobey Horus is to disobey the Emperor. At this moment in time Russ has no reason to not trust the words of Horus, even though one of his own troops warned him of Horus betrayal in Prospero Burns before he had received the decree from the Emperor.
Manchu wrote: You can't understand why the SW and the Emperor's Talons did what they did without understanding what provoked and justified it.
Provoked? Absolutely. Justified? No. Stepping outside of your authority to mete out extrajudicial punishment to someone you have a vendetta against is never justified no matter what they did. Horus didn't have the authority to order Russ to attack another legion, only the Emperor had the power to order that and we know that he did NOT order Russ to attack the Thousand Sons. Russ was empowered to bring Magnus back to Terra alive, nothing more.
False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'
Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'
There are other quotes I have in regards to this but the search function does not want to work for me at all. One about what Ahriman reveals to Wyrdmake before he feeds his soul to the terrors of the warp, where Russ receives the order from Horus and Valdor urges Russ to follow his command.
Horus is Warmaster and speaks with the authority of the Emperor to disobey Horus is to disobey the Emperor. At this moment in time Russ has no reason to not trust the words of Horus, even though one of his own troops warned him of Horus betrayal in Prospero Burns before he had received the decree from the Emperor.
the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"
Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"
Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh
Yeah but Russ knew that involved Melfecarum so he didn't take it seriously.
"e had been right all along. All along. This is his ploy.’
‘Do you know what was so unthinkable? asked Hawser.
‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’said Russ. ‘From the look
on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’
Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable.
‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the
Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’
‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’said Helwintr.
‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy.
It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you,
an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same
damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by
coming from a secondary source.’
Russ himself didn't want to kill Magnus:
"The Wolf King turned to Helwintr and the escort. ‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too late for him to beg for mercy.’ ‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What happens now?’ ‘Now?’ Leman Russ replied. ‘Now, Prospero falls.’"
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"
Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh
No, that happened after the burning of Prospero, there as no warning of Horus turning until after the city had been sacked.
Pretty sure there was, one that wasn't heeded and as BrianDavion points out, probably put down to Magnus meddling.
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"
Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh
No, that happened after the burning of Prospero, there as no warning of Horus turning until after the city had been sacked.
Pretty sure there was, one that wasn't heeded and as BrianDavion points out, probably put down to Magnus meddling.
I edited my comment, you're right that did happen before, but read the edit ^^
I edited my comment, you're right that did happen before, but read the edit ^^
That's the one.
He puts it down to being malificarum at the hands of Magnus, which turns out to be entirely wrong. If he had paid even a little heed to the chance that Horus might have turned from the Emperor then things would have been a lot different for both Legions. Hindsight is a bitch
I edited my comment, you're right that did happen before, but read the edit ^^
That's the one.
He puts it down to being malificarum at the hands of Magnus, which turns out to be entirely wrong. If he had paid even a little heed to the chance that Horus might have turned from the Emperor then things would have been a lot different for both Legions. Hindsight is a bitch
Yeah I don't know, I mean they know the warp can't be trusted so, still unthinkable for Horus to have gone traitor in the eyes of his brothers, not just that but the whole Imperium.
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"
Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh
thing is I'm not sure Russ knew what the message sent was. (heck did Magnus actually relay the message or was it a case of he got through, saw immediatly what he had done and was all... "damn I'mm uhh come back later... when you're not epicly face palming dad"
"The Wolf King turned to Helwintr and the escort. ‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too late for him to beg for mercy.’ ‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What happens now?’ ‘Now?’ Leman Russ replied. ‘Now, Prospero falls.’"
Very important quote - shows again that Magnus could have done things different - even at the end.
thing is I'm not sure Russ knew what the message sent was. (heck did Magnus actually relay the message or was it a case of he got through, saw immediatly what he had done and was all... "damn I'mm uhh come back later... when you're not epicly face palming dad"
It's been a while since I've read the books and I do not have them to hand. But Magnus reflects that even though he managed to deliver his message to the Emperor it went unheard due to his fnarping up of the webway project.
Also see the quote that Delvarus posted before, he is aware of the contents from the message. What the revealed contents were we don't know, but involving Horus seems to be accurate. As Delvarus suppied
‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’said Russ. ‘From the look
on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’
Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable.
‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the
Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’
‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’said Helwintr.
‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy.
It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you,
an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same
damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by
coming from a secondary source.’
Horus sends a message to Russ saying to eliminate the wolves and Magnus and Russ doesn't even bat an eyelid. I found a bit more to that quote, here's the full text.
‘My lord,’ said Hawser. ‘What… what did your brother do?’
‘He performed an act of maleficarum that drove his sorcery right to the heart of Terra and into the presence of the Emperor,’ said Helwintr.
‘But… why?’ asked Hawser.
‘It was an alleged attempt to communicate a warning,’ said Russ without turning. His voice was a soft grumble, like thunder grinding in the far distance.
‘A warning, my lord?’
‘One of such terrible importance, Magnus felt it was worth exposing his own treachery to reveal it,’ Russ murmured.
‘Forgive me,’ said Hawser, ‘but does that not speak to some loyalty in your brother? Has the warning been examined? Has it been taken seriously?’ Russ turned back to face him.
‘Why would it? My brother is a madman. A dabbling warlock.’
‘Lord,’ said Hawser, ‘he was prepared to admit he was ignoring the edicts of Nikaea, and risk the censure that he knew must result from that admission, to relay a warning. Why would he do that unless the warning was valid?’
‘You’re not a warrior, skjald,’ said the Wolf King in an almost kindly tone. ‘Strategy is not your strong suit. Consider the reverse of your proposition. Magnus wants the ruling of Nikaea overturned. He wants permission and approval to continue with his arcane tinkerings and his foul magics. So he manufactures a threat, something he can warn us about that is so astonishing we would have to forgive him, and set aside our objections. Something so unthinkable, we would have to thank him and tell him he had been right all along. All along. This is his ploy.’
‘Do you know what was so unthinkable? asked Hawser.
‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’ said Russ. ‘From the look on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’
Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable.
‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’
‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’ said Helwintr.
‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy. It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you, an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by coming from a secondary source.’
Russ looked down into Hawser’s eyes.
‘Truth is, it’s the proof I need that Magnus is desperately trying to coordinate a campaign of disinformation to support his ruse. He doesn’t need to answer through you, skjald. He’s answered already.’
I guess that's why they keep Hawser on Ice, to keep him quiet
Delvarus Centurion wrote: the only person trying to pretend is you if you think Russ did anything wrong.
Dude you are sooooooo not neutral. Okay still think he did something wrong but saying this "when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. " when multiple people have proven you wrong, Horus had full authority to order Russ to do what he did and Russ had no authority not to do what he ordered. Horus was warmaster, he had 'full' authority when it comes to issues of the Great Crusade. Ask yourself this, if Horus did not have the authority to do what he did, why was Russ never called into dispute because of it, not even a mention, Malcador talked to him after that, he never said 'yeah you shouldn't have dome that.' The Emperor even condoned what Russ did:
I'm sure if Horus started to order the legions to attack each other the Emperor would have something to say about it. Horus wields his authority because the Emperor granted it to him, it doesn't give Horus the right to do whatever he wants if it runs contrary to the Imperium's interest. Horus had no authority to order the wolves to attack Prospero, especially since the EMPEROR order the wolves to arrest Magnus.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ‘And what happens when Russ takes it upon himself to decide who is loyal and who deserves execution?’
Malcador had a point... The Emperor's only response to that was "nah I trust him", which is kind of foolish in my mind. This exchange only proves that Imperium looked the other way when it came to the wolves, not that the wolves can do no wrong. Are you seriously arguing that Russ could have done whatever he wanted and that makes it ok because the Emperor trusts him?
Formosa wrote: Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.
Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.
Stop talking nonsense, I’m not pretending anything and if that’s what you got from what I wrote then I agree with others here and you are showing very clear bias.
What??? You are the one saying Russ felt bad for wronging Magnus, I thought you were agreeing with me. In order to feel bad for "wronging" someone you have to do "wrong".
EmpNortonII wrote: I got to thinking if sending the Space Wolves was the worst decision the Emperor could have made regarding Magnus.
I decided no. It'd be pretty funny to read an alt-history version where the Death Guard, World Eaters, or Night Lords had been tasked with bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra.
The Alpha Legion might have sent a party barge to Prospero with a sign saying "Free Magick books inside!" filled with Sisters of Silence.
The Night Lords or World Eaters would have probably started a fight even if Horus had not change the orders. Angron didn't really do take them alive and Curze could barely control and or stand most of his legion by that point.
I think he picked the wolves because he knew Russ was level headed enough to handle it well if Magnus cooperated but more than willing/experienced in fighting other legions that he would pull the trigger if Magnus resisted. Magnus picked the worst option in my opinion. He let most of his legion die for sins he had committed, then doubled down on sin at the last minute. He could have just surrendered peacefully and faced justice for his mistakes. Instead he made a bad situation worse.
Despite being mistaken about Horus, the point Russ made to Hawser about strategy is pretty insightful. Magnus never accepted the edict and was indeed casting about for some way to prove his father wrong. This was his main agenda, not warning the Emperor about Horus.
Perhaps the Emperor should have "invited" Magnus to an extended stay on Terra immediately after the Council. But doubtless this would have been seen by the other Primarchs as jumping the gun. I almost think the edict was meant as a trap for Magnus, that the Emperor knew Magnus would violate it and this would justify Magnus being sentenced to the Golden Throne.
Manchu wrote: Perhaps the Emperor should have "invited" Magnus to an extended stay on Terra immediately after the Council. But doubtless this would have been seen by the other Primarchs as jumping the gun. I almost think the edict was meant as a trap for Magnus, that the Emperor knew Magnus would violate it and this would justify Magnus being sentenced to the Golden Throne.
I actually agree that this is a distinct possibility.
Manchu wrote: Perhaps the Emperor should have "invited" Magnus to an extended stay on Terra immediately after the Council. But doubtless this would have been seen by the other Primarchs as jumping the gun. I almost think the edict was meant as a trap for Magnus, that the Emperor knew Magnus would violate it and this would justify Magnus being sentenced to the Golden Throne.
I actually agree that this is a distinct possibility.
I actually view it the other way. It was the Emperor giving Magnus one more chance to stop and obey. Magnus didn't and brought his home and legion to ruin because he thought he was smarter than everyone else.
I agree that Magnus's arrogance destroyed him and his Legion. But that is not mutually exclusive to the notion that the Emperor may never have expected that Magnus would or could comply with the Edict.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I actually view it the other way. It was the Emperor giving Magnus one more chance to stop and obey. Magnus didn't and brought his home and legion to ruin because he thought he was smarter than everyone else.
Well we know that the Emperor planned for Magnus to sit on the golden throne at some point. Giving him "one more chance" seems pretty counterproductive to that. It makes much more sense to set him up to break some law so you have an excuse to arrest him and force him on the throne.
The Emperor wasn't an idiot, regardless of how his plans turned out. He had to know that Magnus wouldn't follow the edict.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I actually view it the other way. It was the Emperor giving Magnus one more chance to stop and obey. Magnus didn't and brought his home and legion to ruin because he thought he was smarter than everyone else.
Well we know that the Emperor planned for Magnus to sit on the golden throne at some point. Giving him "one more chance" seems pretty counterproductive to that. It makes much more sense to set him up to break some law so you have an excuse to arrest him and force him on the throne.
The Emperor wasn't an idiot, regardless of how his plans turned out. He had to know that Magnus wouldn't follow the edict.
Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.
pm713 wrote: Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.
I guess you have a point... but, that is just so... bad? It's pretty obvious the Emperor underestimated the "human element" in his plans and was pretty disconnected from the human condition, but to THAT extent? That isn't making a mistake, that is pushing incompetence.
It makes me question his judgment in other areas *cough*Russ*cough*.
pm713 wrote: Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.
I guess you have a point... but, that is just so... bad? It's pretty obvious the Emperor underestimated the "human element" in his plans and was pretty disconnected from the human condition, but to THAT extent? That isn't making a mistake, that is pushing incompetence.
It makes me question his judgment in other areas *cough*Russ*cough*.
The Emperor IS incompetent. That's why you have things like trying to just ignore Chaos to avoid corruption, deciding all out war is the best path with 0 alternatives tried, putting almost all manufacturing and research in the hands of religious nuts and putting several people who were clearly unstable as leaders of his armies.
pm713 wrote: Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.
I guess you have a point... but, that is just so... bad? It's pretty obvious the Emperor underestimated the "human element" in his plans and was pretty disconnected from the human condition, but to THAT extent? That isn't making a mistake, that is pushing incompetence.
It makes me question his judgment in other areas *cough*Russ*cough*.
The Emperor IS incompetent. That's why you have things like trying to just ignore Chaos to avoid corruption, deciding all out war is the best path with 0 alternatives tried, putting almost all manufacturing and research in the hands of religious nuts and putting several people who were clearly unstable as leaders of his armies.
No he is not.
- On avoiding Chaos, he didn't avoid Chaos, but banned the worship of any Gods. Foremostly because active worship of the Dark Gods powers them far more than simply invoking one of their aspects, but also because he believes in the supremacy of the human race, and that humans need to see themselves as the most powerful beings, not inferior to a deity.
- He tried many alternative paths. Heavy suggested that he is every religious and major political figure in history, from Jesus and Mohammad to Julius Caesar. He was steadily trying to guide humanity towards an enlightened, Chaos-free life, but along the way realised that through the Machinations of Chaos, or human nature, they would always return to Chaos. He also realised that while Humanity was important, there might be hundreds of thousands of chaos-worshipper beings across the galaxy, and was proved right during the Heresy. Planets such as Laer and Cadia were powering up Chaos long before the Heresy. He realised the only was to accomplish his goal of putting humanity as a pinacle of existance AND getting them to see themselves that way, was to wipe out all the Chaos worshippers, aliens and other threats. Nothing invokes national pride in a desperate nation than steamrolling a bitter enemy and the Emperor simply gave them an enemy that wasn't each other.
- In terms of putting tech and manufacturing in the hands of religious nuts, this was a complete necessity. Only the Martian Priests had the know-how and understanding to fund his Crusade. He couldn't wipe them out, because then he'd have no one to build all his stuff. Don't forget, this is post-DAoT, meaning 99% of humanity had no idea how anything worked. The Martians may worship the Machine God and think its all his doing, but still were the only ones who could build stuff for him. Think of it this way - you are in the aftermath of the apocalypse. Humanity is either 80% dead, or scattered across the globe. You need a to build vehicles and houses to reunite the rest of the population. However, out of your 100 strong group, only have any understanding of mechanics, coding, hardware, software, etc. Problem is, there are zealots and will only build and code in the name of their god. Now, you could just beat them into submission, but who's to say they won't build you faulty guns or cars that break down when you need it most, or worse, fight back with an arsenal of tanks and T-800s they built themselves. You could also kill them off, but then, no one in your 98 strong group has the slightest idea how to build a gun, car or program, there are no teachers and no instruction books to follow, and no way to learn. How do you then get the materials you need?
His plan to stop Chaos was to essentially deny what they were and humans are clearly not the most powerful beings at all. That's very obvious from the setting.
He could have easily made an enemy out of Orks instead of ensuring that every single civilisation capable of war would be at war with humanity.
It wasn't necessary at all. The Emperor supposedly has plans that manipulate beliefs and culture for centuries but he couldn't do something to make the Mechanicus better at their job? The Imperiums sole source of technology took centuries to approve changing the side weapons of a tank. Anybody who considers that acceptable should not be in charge.
Deadshot wrote: - He tried many alternative paths. Heavy suggested that he is every religious and major political figure in history, from Jesus and Mohammad to Julius Caesar. He was steadily trying to guide humanity towards an enlightened, Chaos-free life, but along the way realised that through the Machinations of Chaos, or human nature, they would always return to Chaos. He also realised that while Humanity was important, there might be hundreds of thousands of chaos-worshipper beings across the galaxy, and was proved right during the Heresy. Planets such as Laer and Cadia were powering up Chaos long before the Heresy. He realised the only was to accomplish his goal of putting humanity as a pinacle of existance AND getting them to see themselves that way, was to wipe out all the Chaos worshippers, aliens and other threats. Nothing invokes national pride in a desperate nation than steamrolling a bitter enemy and the Emperor simply gave them an enemy that wasn't each other.
Isn't this, especially in retrospect, an out and out mistake? Sure, he isn't incompetent from the standpoint of establishing Order. But that course of action isn't attainable, sustainable or beneficial long-term.
If the Emperor was such an enlightened figure, how did he not understand the fundamental (necessary) balance between Order and Chaos? And that there is literally no way to completely expunge Chaos? Further that even if you could, it would not be beneficial to the universe in the long run. Overwhelming order and rationality is/would be just as detrimental to everyone's well-being as overwhelming Chaos.
It's either arrogance or ignorance, but in either case it's a mistake. Even well intentioned mistakes are still mistakes. Order is necessary and fixative. Chaos is necessary and generative. Balance is the correct formulation and so finding that balance is enlightenment. Anything else is simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. Eventually Paul will come to collect...
Deadshot wrote: - He tried many alternative paths. Heavy suggested that he is every religious and major political figure in history, from Jesus and Mohammad to Julius Caesar. He was steadily trying to guide humanity towards an enlightened, Chaos-free life, but along the way realised that through the Machinations of Chaos, or human nature, they would always return to Chaos. He also realised that while Humanity was important, there might be hundreds of thousands of chaos-worshipper beings across the galaxy, and was proved right during the Heresy. Planets such as Laer and Cadia were powering up Chaos long before the Heresy. He realised the only was to accomplish his goal of putting humanity as a pinacle of existance AND getting them to see themselves that way, was to wipe out all the Chaos worshippers, aliens and other threats. Nothing invokes national pride in a desperate nation than steamrolling a bitter enemy and the Emperor simply gave them an enemy that wasn't each other.
Isn't this, especially in retrospect, an out and out mistake? Sure, he isn't incompetent from the standpoint of establishing Order. But that course of action isn't attainable, sustainable or beneficial long-term.
If the Emperor was such an enlightened figure, how did he not understand the fundamental (necessary) balance between Order and Chaos? And that there is literally no way to completely expunge Chaos? Further that even if you could, it would not be beneficial to the universe in the long run. Overwhelming order and rationality is/would be just as detrimental to everyone's well-being as overwhelming Chaos.
It's either arrogance or ignorance, but in either case it's a mistake. Even well intentioned mistakes are still mistakes. Order is necessary and fixative. Chaos is necessary and generative. Balance is the correct formulation and so finding that balance is enlightenment. Anything else is simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. Eventually Paul will come to collect...
Perhaps my choice of wording was poor. He did not aim towards a Chaos-free life, but rather, one where the Chaos Gods did not have total control over Humanity. The Chaos God's goal is total Chaos, everything to the extreme - anger, hate, bloodshed, ambition and scheme, death and disease and stagnation, ecstasy and pleasure and pride. No restraint whatsoever,
Total order would be as per the Eldar - 110% dedication to a singular existance, and they seem to resist Chaos pretty well.
The Emperor tried to strike a balance between the two, leaning towards restraint and order. In order to do this he created religions such as Christianity and Islam in the guise of various prophets like Jesus and Mohammad, teaching that various emotions such as jealousy, violence, and pride were damning (because they are) while healing disease and illness to counteract Nurgle. He was not ignorant to the necessity of Chaos, but also new that it was uncontrollable, and so in order to avoid total fall into Chaos, required strict Order to compensate. But he also realised that although he could teach humanity and guide them towards relative order, the number of alien Chaos cults would always overpower humanity's order. In order to ensure that only humanity could control its destiny, he had to erradicate all other life. There's also a fact that other aliens are natural threats to human existance but that's another point.
TDLR, he wanted to drastically reduce Chaos' power, not wipe it out completely, which is impossible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: His plan to stop Chaos was to essentially deny what they were and humans are clearly not the most powerful beings at all. That's very obvious from the setting.
He could have easily made an enemy out of Orks instead of ensuring that every single civilisation capable of war would be at war with humanity.
It wasn't necessary at all. The Emperor supposedly has plans that manipulate beliefs and culture for centuries but he couldn't do something to make the Mechanicus better at their job? The Imperiums sole source of technology took centuries to approve changing the side weapons of a tank. Anybody who considers that acceptable should not be in charge.
I never said they were the most powerful, just that the Emperor wanted them to see themselves as the pinacle of creation. Not as gifted in mind or body that the Eldar, but more tempered. Not as physical as the Ork, but smarter. More adaptable than the alien and their enemies. Not perfect in any way, but better due to their combined traits. Its a trope used many times over in sci-fi. The superiority of human nature over seeming insurmountable odds. He knew that humans wouldn't be able to compete physically, so he gave them the tools and weaponry to fight back, the Space Marines.
The Orks are but one enemy, and he knows this, and he actually did make out the Ork to be the main enemy, along with others. But once the Orks are gone, who then to fight? Make an enemy out of everyone. Then you don't have to worry about alien cults dragging humanity into Chaos. Chaos is once and forever the true enemy. Everything else is just a side-villain. To compare to other media -
MCU - Chaos is Thanos, the big bad that everything leads towards. All the others, the Orks, the Eldar, the Nids, the Tau, those are the villains you see along the way. Iron Monger, The Abomination, Whiplash, Red Skull, Malekith, Hydra, Ronan, Ego, Dormammu, Vulture, Killmonger, Surtur, Hela, The Mandarin, AIM, Ultron, Loki, Yellowjacket... all these MCU villains, some great, some lesser, are in their own right a villain. But all are just filler to distract from the true enemy.
DC Arrowverse - Chaos could be any of the season villains, but the best analogy for the modern Imperium is Reverse-Flash, a dark reflection of the hero Flash. All other 15 or so villains or enemies he fights every week, just a filler to get you to the final battle. These fillers are the Xenos and the Heretic.
Chaos is the final boss, and when you defeat him, you complete the game. Everything else is just another step on the road to victory. Beating them is a great step, but unless you defeat Chaos, pointless.
Orks are a perfect enemy to rally against because they're never gone. The Eldar Empire couldn't eradicate them so it's fair to say the Imperium couldn't either.
If Chaos is the main enemy then why not join with other races who fight Chaos and are far more adept at it? The Emperor's actions aren't those of a person fighting Chaos they're the actions of a genocidal maniac.
pm713 wrote: Orks are a perfect enemy to rally against because they're never gone. The Eldar Empire couldn't eradicate them so it's fair to say the Imperium couldn't either.
If Chaos is the main enemy then why not join with other races who fight Chaos and are far more adept at it? The Emperor's actions aren't those of a person fighting Chaos they're the actions of a genocidal maniac.
Because unending war is exactly what Khorne wants. Unending War with the Orks is Khorne's wet dream. As I said, the Ork was the big baddie of the Great Crusade due to their widespread population, but not the final enemy.
Because other races cannot be trusted to have humanity's best interest at heart. This was not just about fighting Chaos, it was about best serving mankind. If you asked an Eldar, for example, to put the interest of the human race above the life of a single Eldar, they'd wipe out every human without hesitation. Better to destroy all threats than take a chance by trust one. All of a sudden, you have mankind trusting aliens because they fought together - aliens who can corrupt, dominate, teach worship of their own gods who are actually just aspects of the Dark Gods in another name.
Besides, what other races could fight Chaos the way the Emperor intended, by erasing all knowledge of the Chaos Gods? The Interex and others knew what they were fighting. The Emperor did not tell anyone about Chaos for a simple reason - no one can worship a god they've never heard of. Sure, bloodshed and anger will always be part of the human psyche, as will pride and pleasure and death and disease. BUT, no one goes around offering the skulls of 888 of the galaxies greatest warriors to a big fat nothing. Or hosts an orgy of exactly 666 virgins. No one will go out of their way to worship a god they've never heard of, nor summon Daemons to the mortal plain to win favour of a God they don't know of. Most wouldn't even travel into the Warp if they didn't need to. Remove the need, remove the powering of the Dark Gods as much as possible and weaken them so that humanity may never need to worry about them, and live in peace and prosperity for eternity, without need for bloodshed, scheming or self-aggrandisement.
If unending war is really bad then why did the Emperor start it?
Is that because Eldar don't value life or because humans constantly try to exterminate them and are giant A-holes? Hint it's the second one. Alien allies did work and even if they did spread worship of their gods then that's not a wholly bad thing. Not all gods are Chaos.
None of them are dumb enough to try that. If you don't know what Chaos is you'll still hear a voice urging you to do as it says or to stab a guy in exchange for power.
Knowledge of Chaos prevents it which is why you don't have Chaos Eldar cropping up all the time but the Great Crusade had half the army turn.
pm713 wrote: If unending war is really bad then why did the Emperor start it?
Is that because Eldar don't value life or because humans constantly try to exterminate them and are giant A-holes? Hint it's the second one. Alien allies did work and even if they did spread worship of their gods then that's not a wholly bad thing. Not all gods are Chaos.
None of them are dumb enough to try that. If you don't know what Chaos is you'll still hear a voice urging you to do as it says or to stab a guy in exchange for power.
Knowledge of Chaos prevents it which is why you don't have Chaos Eldar cropping up all the time but the Great Crusade had half the army turn.
None of the Emperor's plans were that good.
I do believe the Emperor intended to WIN the Great Crusade. You have to play the game to win the game. He did not intend for unending war, but simply a long war that ultimately ENDS in Imperial supremacy.
Its because Eldar don't value non-Eldar life. Its routinely stated in every instance that Eldar would do anything to preserve the Eldar race. If a Farseer told an Eldar warrior that by slaughtering a whole colony of newborn human babes would save the life of a single Eldar, because one of those babies would eventually grow up and kill an Eldar but he doesn't know which, the Eldar Warrior would muster a warhost and burn the planet to the ground just to be sure. Even if it were an Eldar baby, rediculously rare, and a Farseer said with 100% certainty that this Eldar newborn would be the doom of the race, that baby would be chucked into the nearest incinerator right away.
Alien allies led to co-existance, which ultimately means that one day, relations with the alien will cause issues. The Emperor cannot control aliens and convince them to give up their gods. And yes, not all Gods are Chaos, but all gods are false gods, and defies the Imperial Truth that there are no gods, which in turn must therefore recognise the legitimacy of the Chaos Gods. Freedom of religion is great in 2018, but it also allows people to worship whatever they want - be it Christianity, Islam, Hindusim, Satanism, or even Jedi and Sith. Freedom of religion means you have to allow even those religions who believe its right to murder their way to the top of the foodchain. We don't permit that in 21st Century, so why permit it when worshipping said gods could lead to ACTUAL real Daemons popping up and devouring the souls of humanity? Again, not all gods are Chaos gods, but in order to effectively remove Chaos worship without "Freedom of religion" being thrust at him and eventually cast down as ruler - he simply supplements them with an all-encompasing religion, one that is antitheist, and instead of worshipping any gods, reveres the Human Being as a divine entity. At the very least, this might create a new Warp God who's is protecting humanity from the other warp entities who wish to devour them.
Chaos Eldar don't exist because Eldar don't have the relationship to Chaos as humans do. Humans can worship, serve and be rewarded by any of the four, elevated to Immortal Daemonhood. Fear of death is an innate part of being human, and in 40k, its confirmed that humans fundamentally have the fear of death due to the Nightbringer C'tan. Thereby, humans have a reason to serve Chaos, although arguably a worse option as an eternal being slaved to a dark god, to be obliterated at a whim, its only natural for humans to seek this immortality regardless of consequence. Eldar, on the other hand, are not pawns, potential recruits or otherwise for any Dark God, they are popcorn for Slaanesh. Any Eldar that dies without protection (Spirit Stone, Cegorach, a soul-transfer, Ynnead) is GUARENTEED to be devoured by Slaanesh. Slaanesh has first claim on all their souls and serving the other Gods only further guarentees their fate. There is no reward, only risk, to serving Chaos. Humans have a reward - kill a couple million people and become immortal. Half the Imperial Army turned because the Chaos Gods offered them something, be it glory, power, life, good looks, money, anything! Being honest with humanity gives them a choice, to risk it all on a sliver of a chance at immortality and everything your heart desires. Chaos has nothing to offer to the Eldar.
The Emperor's plans are great plans, and if they succeeded, would have saved humanity from Chaos forever.
The Emperor made one tiny mistake, and that is that he forgot that humans need something to revere. He forgot that part of human psyche requires pageantry and worship of something greater to exist*. He believed that by wiping out other religions, he could protect humanity from Chaos and he was right, but where he went wrong was denying his own power. He forgot that any being with sufficient power is indistinguishable from a god. And in doing so, he didn't realise that he sowed the seed of his own downfall, by standing as a god above Lorgar and claiming he was not. He either should have accepted his depiction, or embraced it, and let collective human worship elevate him to Godhood so that he might better protect humanity from the Warp from the inside. The irony is this is exactly what happened in the end.
On a side note, I believe this* is given to humanity by the Deceiver. In the same way the Nightbringer imprinted its image, via the warp, on the collective psyche of every living being as a symbol of death, the Deceiver imprinted itself by giving humanity the basic instinct and need for pageantry, grandeur and performance and worship.
Winning the Crusade was a bit irrelevant. Unless every single alien life form that was or had the potential to become capable of warfare was exterminated then more aliens would pop up to fight because with the Emperor that was their only choice. Fight or die.
That's rather the point. What preserves life more? A massive xenophobic empire that wants to kill every last member of your race or an empire that has a strained relationship with you but one that you allied with against Chaos?
Chaos Eldar exist because some can and did make deals to live and get enhanced powers. The others don't join in because they know what Chaos is and fight it.
Which plan was great? The dumb plan to take the Webway? Force all other life in the galaxy to war with them? Force technological dependence on a cult who understand nothing at all? Putting lunatics who hated him in charge of vast armies?
The Emperor isn't that smart and while it's largely a result of retroactively adding detail to the lore of pre 40k it's still a part of the setting.
Chaos Eldar don't exist because Eldar don't have the relationship to Chaos as humans do. Humans can worship, serve and be rewarded by any of the four, elevated to Immortal Daemonhood. Fear of death is an innate part of being human, and in 40k, its confirmed that humans fundamentally have the fear of death due to the Nightbringer C'tan. Thereby, humans have a reason to serve Chaos, although arguably a worse option as an eternal being slaved to a dark god, to be obliterated at a whim, its only natural for humans to seek this immortality regardless of consequence. Eldar, on the other hand, are not pawns, potential recruits or otherwise for any Dark God, they are popcorn for Slaanesh. Any Eldar that dies without protection (Spirit Stone, Cegorach, a soul-transfer, Ynnead) is GUARENTEED to be devoured by Slaanesh. Slaanesh has first claim on all their souls and serving the other Gods only further guarentees their fate. There is no reward, only risk, to serving Chaos. Humans have a reward - kill a couple million people and become immortal. Half the Imperial Army turned because the Chaos Gods offered them something, be it glory, power, life, good looks, money, anything! Being honest with humanity gives them a choice, to risk it all on a sliver of a chance at immortality and everything your heart desires. Chaos has nothing to offer to the Eldar.
Chaos Eldar do exist - always have done in the lore.
You worship Slaanesh and you don't get devoured, (yet) you might even become a powerful servant of the god. Exactly the same as any other Mortal. Slaanesh will enjoy it.
Imperium or not, Chaos or not, in the end the outcome is still the same.
If anything I find idea that humanity goes extinct without Imperium to be a bit ridiculous. Humanity will endure in some way, in some form - be it as proverbial hill tribes, as ghetto bound minorities or as gypsy style wanderers.
They will look on, as those they once looked down on rise above them, only repeat the same mistakes. Cycle of life 'n all - well, more like the cycle of misery tbh.
pm713 wrote:Winning the Crusade was a bit irrelevant. Unless every single alien life form that was or had the potential to become capable of warfare was exterminated then more aliens would pop up to fight because with the Emperor that was their only choice. Fight or die.
That's rather the point. What preserves life more? A massive xenophobic empire that wants to kill every last member of your race or an empire that has a strained relationship with you but one that you allied with against Chaos?
Chaos Eldar exist because some can and did make deals to live and get enhanced powers. The others don't join in because they know what Chaos is and fight it.
Which plan was great? The dumb plan to take the Webway? Force all other life in the galaxy to war with them? Force technological dependence on a cult who understand nothing at all? Putting lunatics who hated him in charge of vast armies?
The Emperor isn't that smart and while it's largely a result of retroactively adding detail to the lore of pre 40k it's still a part of the setting.
Small enemies here and there are good for empire building and national pride. A little war and violence is necessary otherwise humans will fight each other. Dominate the galaxy, and then "here's a nice little Ork village to bombard, have fun!"
What preserves human life and souls more? A massive xenophobic empire that kills all threats immediately without hesitation or taking a chance on an alien race that has other interests?
The great plan to take the webway and stop relying on the Warp. Killing all threats. The Cult Mechanicus was not part of the plan, but he worked with what he had. Likewise, lunatic Primarchs weren't the plan, but he worked with what he had.
The Emperor was very smart. His plan, had it gone to plan, was a masterstroke and would have worked. However, he is still human, and he made mistakes.
Mr Morden wrote:
Chaos Eldar don't exist because Eldar don't have the relationship to Chaos as humans do. Humans can worship, serve and be rewarded by any of the four, elevated to Immortal Daemonhood. Fear of death is an innate part of being human, and in 40k, its confirmed that humans fundamentally have the fear of death due to the Nightbringer C'tan. Thereby, humans have a reason to serve Chaos, although arguably a worse option as an eternal being slaved to a dark god, to be obliterated at a whim, its only natural for humans to seek this immortality regardless of consequence. Eldar, on the other hand, are not pawns, potential recruits or otherwise for any Dark God, they are popcorn for Slaanesh. Any Eldar that dies without protection (Spirit Stone, Cegorach, a soul-transfer, Ynnead) is GUARENTEED to be devoured by Slaanesh. Slaanesh has first claim on all their souls and serving the other Gods only further guarentees their fate. There is no reward, only risk, to serving Chaos. Humans have a reward - kill a couple million people and become immortal. Half the Imperial Army turned because the Chaos Gods offered them something, be it glory, power, life, good looks, money, anything! Being honest with humanity gives them a choice, to risk it all on a sliver of a chance at immortality and everything your heart desires. Chaos has nothing to offer to the Eldar.
Chaos Eldar do exist - always have done in the lore.
You worship Slaanesh and you don't get devoured, (yet) you might even become a powerful servant of the god. Exactly the same as any other Mortal. Slaanesh will enjoy it.
I have seen no indication that Chaos Eldar are still a thing in the modern fluff. It just doesn't make sense. Does a gazelle make deals with the Lion to become a little snitch for the lion, trapping its others while the lion closes in? No. The cat may play with a mouse before killing it, but in the end, it will kill the mouse. Eldar serving Slaanesh gain power, but when they die they are going to get eaten as well. Why would Slaanesh not eat the Eldar when it gets bored or angry. Its playing with matches in a methane-filled cave.
Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.
The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.
You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.
They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.
There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.
pm713 wrote: Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.
The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.
You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.
They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.
There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.
Taking the Web Way, if successful would have removed humanities need for warp travel, something the Emperor really wanted. Plus once he got in via a stable gate the Eldar are in trouble. Short term Humanity would take heavy casualties but who care, humanities large asset is numbers. At this point the Eldar are scattered, recovering from the fall, and in no shape for a long term standing battle. The only reason they still exist is because they are constantly moving and try to only fight battles on their terms. If humanity gets stable access to the Webway both of those advantages do away fast.
pm713 wrote: Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.
The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.
You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.
They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.
There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.
Taking the Web Way, if successful would have removed humanities need for warp travel, something the Emperor really wanted. Plus once he got in via a stable gate the Eldar are in trouble. Short term Humanity would take heavy casualties but who care, humanities large asset is numbers. At this point the Eldar are scattered, recovering from the fall, and in no shape for a long term standing battle. The only reason they still exist is because they are constantly moving and try to only fight battles on their terms. If humanity gets stable access to the Webway both of those advantages do away fast.
It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.
Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.
I have seen no indication that Chaos Eldar are still a thing in the modern fluff. It just doesn't make sense. Does a gazelle make deals with the Lion to become a little snitch for the lion, trapping its others while the lion closes in? No. The cat may play with a mouse before killing it, but in the end, it will kill the mouse. Eldar serving Slaanesh gain power, but when they die they are going to get eaten as well. Why would Slaanesh not eat the Eldar when it gets bored or angry. Its playing with matches in a methane-filled cave.
Why wouldn't they be still around - Chaos corrupts, mortals are coruptable. Having an Eldar as a champion in its service is both a delicious irony and also a constant temptation, Slaanesh denying itself to prelong the pleasure that may never arrive.
Die - you wont die - thats the whole point - you are aiming for immortaility - so you will never die. Yes the Chaos God could absorb you - but that true of all Daemons ? And by that point i doubt you even care. If you fail well your soul is gone anyway.
All followers of Chaos tred this path - its insanity but only to the sane.
If the gazelle could make a deal with the lion it would, some would. Herd animals already rely on the death of others to make them live.
pm713 wrote: Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.
The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.
You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.
They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.
There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.
Taking the Web Way, if successful would have removed humanities need for warp travel, something the Emperor really wanted. Plus once he got in via a stable gate the Eldar are in trouble. Short term Humanity would take heavy casualties but who care, humanities large asset is numbers. At this point the Eldar are scattered, recovering from the fall, and in no shape for a long term standing battle. The only reason they still exist is because they are constantly moving and try to only fight battles on their terms. If humanity gets stable access to the Webway both of those advantages do away fast.
It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.
Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.
Master of Mankind shows that the Eldar response to his project was not to fight but to start sealing portals, that is true. However that novel also establishes that the Emperor could make new webway sections. They were no were nearly as good as the Eldar version and needed a psyker like himself or Magnus to make it work properly but given enough time he could piggy back on it enough that the Eldar would be in trouble.
It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.
Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.
It's not an if - a gateway and webway section linking it the existing webway was constructed. The ability to do that means that a settled is portion of what is not catastrophic.
The eldar didn't create the webway - try found it and learned how to work with it, no reason that humanity can't do the same.
It was actually going pretty well up to the point that it was filled with daemons thanks to magnus.
It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.
Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.
It's not an if - a gateway and webway section linking it the existing webway was constructed. The ability to do that means that a settled is portion of what is not catastrophic.
The eldar didn't create the webway - try found it and learned how to work with it, no reason that humanity can't do the same.
It was actually going pretty well up to the point that it was filled with daemons thanks to magnus.
There's a lot of difference between the Emperor making a new path between A and B and rebuilding the entire Webway almost from scratch while it's full of demons which the Eldar could very easily do.
I think it's more accurate to say the Eldar inherited it than found it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the emperor was so long lived his plan proably was a matter of "thousands of years"
But he either lacked the patience or ability to work in that time frame otherwise we wouldn't have crazy Mechanicus. The Emperor is incredibly inconsistent because of how 40k is written.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: the only person trying to pretend is you if you think Russ did anything wrong.
Dude you are sooooooo not neutral. Okay still think he did something wrong but saying this "when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. " when multiple people have proven you wrong, Horus had full authority to order Russ to do what he did and Russ had no authority not to do what he ordered. Horus was warmaster, he had 'full' authority when it comes to issues of the Great Crusade. Ask yourself this, if Horus did not have the authority to do what he did, why was Russ never called into dispute because of it, not even a mention, Malcador talked to him after that, he never said 'yeah you shouldn't have dome that.' The Emperor even condoned what Russ did:
I'm sure if Horus started to order the legions to attack each other the Emperor would have something to say about it. Horus wields his authority because the Emperor granted it to him, it doesn't give Horus the right to do whatever he wants if it runs contrary to the Imperium's interest. Horus had no authority to order the wolves to attack Prospero, especially since the EMPEROR order the wolves to arrest Magnus.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ‘And what happens when Russ takes it upon himself to decide who is loyal and who deserves execution?’
Malcador had a point... The Emperor's only response to that was "nah I trust him", which is kind of foolish in my mind. This exchange only proves that Imperium looked the other way when it came to the wolves, not that the wolves can do no wrong. Are you seriously arguing that Russ could have done whatever he wanted and that makes it ok because the Emperor trusts him?
Formosa wrote: Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.
Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.
Stop talking nonsense, I’m not pretending anything and if that’s what you got from what I wrote then I agree with others here and you are showing very clear bias.
What??? You are the one saying Russ felt bad for wronging Magnus, I thought you were agreeing with me. In order to feel bad for "wronging" someone you have to do "wrong".
Horus had the authority to do whatever he wanted, after the fact he'd be rebuked for extreme wrong doing on part of his orders. How is Russ to decide in advance of the legitimacy of Horus' orders?
No the Emperor condoned Russ' actions at Prospero. People down play Magnus' actions because he was trying to help. He appeared to the Emperor as a daemon and the devastation he caused was unparalleled. Plus his actions when confronted by the Wolves obviously made the Emperor agree with Russ killing him even though he never ordered him to do it.
I never argued that Russ could do what ever the he wanted because the Emperor trust him.
I always wondered why this was. Did he finally realize that Magnus was too far gone? Was it because the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ? Was it because Horus tricked Russ? Was it some combination of the three?
I always assumed that the Emperor wanted Magnus arrested instead of killed because Magnus could have helped repair the damage to the webway project and then be forced to sit on the Golden Throne as punishment so the Emperor wouldn't have to. It seems kind of odd that Russ turns up back at Terra without Magnus and says "nah I blew up his planet and tried to kill him instead of arresting him like you said" and the Emperor just went "sure that's fine!"
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the emperor was so long lived his plan proably was a matter of "thousands of years"
But he either lacked the patience or ability to work in that time frame otherwise we wouldn't have crazy Mechanicus. The Emperor is incredibly inconsistent because of how 40k is written.
you mean his lack of patiencve as in where her interred a the dragon under Mars in ~300 AD as part of a long term plan to ensure Mars became a center of technological development for mankinds future empire?
Yeah you're gonna have to prove the emperor lacked patience because we have ample examples of his capability for long term planning
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the emperor was so long lived his plan proably was a matter of "thousands of years"
But he either lacked the patience or ability to work in that time frame otherwise we wouldn't have crazy Mechanicus. The Emperor is incredibly inconsistent because of how 40k is written.
you mean his lack of patiencve as in where her interred a the dragon under Mars in ~300 AD as part of a long term plan to ensure Mars became a center of technological development for mankinds future empire?
Yeah you're gonna have to prove the emperor lacked patience because we have ample examples of his capability for long term planning
How does the dragon do that?
Okay. He finds the Mechanicum as a bunch of crazy tech priets. Rather than spend some time fixing it so they became competent he did nothing. Now we have an empire where it takes 200 years to okay swapping guns around on a tank.
I always wondered why this was. Did he finally realize that Magnus was too far gone? Was it because the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ? Was it because Horus tricked Russ? Was it some combination of the three?
I always assumed that the Emperor wanted Magnus arrested instead of killed because Magnus could have helped repair the damage to the webway project and then be forced to sit on the Golden Throne as punishment so the Emperor wouldn't have to. It seems kind of odd that Russ turns up back at Terra without Magnus and says "nah I blew up his planet and tried to kill him instead of arresting him like you said" and the Emperor just went "sure that's fine!"
He never told Russ he condoned it, he told Malcador so definitely not so as not to alienate him, seems like he realised how far gone Magnus was.
Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
When Russ set out from Terra, yes I agree he fully intended to arrest Magnus. After he spoke to Horus on the way though he fully intended not to... Valdor even argued with him saying it wasn't what the emperor wanted. It's not like Russ showed up to Prospero and then made the hard descision not to take Magnus alive, Russ made that decision well before he got there. By the time Russ got to Prospero he was locked and loaded and started shooting immediately.
Proof:
Spoiler:
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.
Before leaving Beta-Garmon, a quantity of phosphex equal to that consumed commonly by a full system-wide life purge campaign was transferred to the Space Wolves ships, along with a variety of Exterminatus grade capital ship munitions, including several bio-alchemical warheads of a classification previously deemed too dangerous to be used within the borders of the Imperium. These and other acquisitions speak of the Wolf King's new intentions for Magnus and the people of Prospero."
What I want to know is why the Emperor was so forgiving afterward, especially when he knew Russ didn't do what he ordered. I highly suspect it was because the wolves were needed for the upcoming Horus Heresy and the Emperor couldn't afford to alienate them, or Russ by extension.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
When Russ set out from Terra, yes I agree he fully intended to arrest Magnus. After he spoke to Horus on the way though he fully intended not to... Valdor even argued with him saying it wasn't what the emperor wanted. It's not like Russ showed up to Prospero and then made the hard descision not to take Magnus alive, Russ made that decision well before he got there.
Proof:
Spoiler:
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.
Before leaving Beta-Garmon, a quantity of phosphex equal to that consumed commonly by a full system-wide life purge campaign was transferred to the Space Wolves ships, along with a variety of Exterminatus grade capital ship munitions, including several bio-alchemical warheads of a classification previously deemed too dangerous to be used within the borders of the Imperium. These and other acquisitions speak of the Wolf King's new intentions for Magnus and the people of Prospero."
Well that is new lore contradicting the old so I'll have to concede ,which is ignorance of the writer (hate it when that happens) but we have to all agree on new lore trumping old, but that wasn't so before as this quote was after the message, :
""The Wolf King turned to Helwintr and the escort. ‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too late for him to beg for mercy.’ ‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What happens now?’ ‘Now?’ Leman Russ replied. ‘Now, Prospero falls."
But you arguing that is actually you agreeing that Russ did nothing wrong. Russ intended to Arrest him and then Horus told him to kill him and added information that convinced him. This isn't 'Russ wanted him dead because he hated him' kind of evidence that you were originally presenting. I think now you'd have to admit, it was fethed up what happened to Magnus, but Russ was only the tool.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But you arguing that is actually you agreeing that Russ did nothing wrong. Russ intended to Arrest him and then Horus told him to kill him and added information that convinced him.
Sure, Horus tricked Russ or convinced him into attacking Magnus, and I don't deny that.
My point was that why is it ok for Russ to get a pass when he gets tricked into serving chaos, but not anyone else? I mean come on, if it were anyone else but Russ who led the attack on Prospero they'd be declared excommunicate traitoris before they could even blink, especially since it went in defiance of a direct order from the Emperor himself. Exterminating an Imperial world (even in open rebellion, which Prospero certainly was not) was also something that previous Primarchs (Curze and Perturabo) had gotten into massive trouble over in the past.
And why was the emperor so forgiving to Russ afterward, when Russ showed up empty handed? I cannot help but think that the Emperor knew that the feud between Magnus and Russ was too great, and that it was better to have the wolves on the loyalist side during the heresy then have both the wolves AND the 1k sons be traitors. Magnus was fethed either way, so condoning Russ' actions post-facto was the Emperor's way of salvaging what he could from the situation.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
When Russ set out from Terra, yes I agree he fully intended to arrest Magnus. After he spoke to Horus on the way though he fully intended not to... Valdor even argued with him saying it wasn't what the emperor wanted. It's not like Russ showed up to Prospero and then made the hard descision not to take Magnus alive, Russ made that decision well before he got there. By the time Russ got to Prospero he was locked and loaded and started shooting immediately.
Proof:
Spoiler:
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.
Before leaving Beta-Garmon, a quantity of phosphex equal to that consumed commonly by a full system-wide life purge campaign was transferred to the Space Wolves ships, along with a variety of Exterminatus grade capital ship munitions, including several bio-alchemical warheads of a classification previously deemed too dangerous to be used within the borders of the Imperium. These and other acquisitions speak of the Wolf King's new intentions for Magnus and the people of Prospero."
What I want to know is why the Emperor was so forgiving afterward, especially when he knew Russ didn't do what he ordered. I highly suspect it was because the wolves were needed for the upcoming Horus Heresy and the Emperor couldn't afford to alienate them, or Russ by extension.
It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
pm713 wrote: It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
I was under the Impression that he did use that weaponry to wipe the planet, just not in the areas that the wolves were fighting.
pm713 wrote: It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
I was under the Impression that he did use that weaponry to wipe the planet, just not in the areas that the wolves were fighting.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But you arguing that is actually you agreeing that Russ did nothing wrong. Russ intended to Arrest him and then Horus told him to kill him and added information that convinced him.
Sure, Horus tricked Russ or convinced him into attacking Magnus, and I don't deny that.
My point was that why is it ok for Russ to get a pass when he gets tricked into serving chaos, but not anyone else? I mean come on, if it were anyone else but Russ who led the attack on Prospero they'd be declared excommunicate traitoris before they could even blink, especially since it went in defiance of a direct order from the Emperor himself. Exterminating an Imperial world (even in open rebellion, which Prospero certainly was not) was also something that previous Primarchs (Curze and Perturabo) had gotten into massive trouble over in the past.
And why was the emperor so forgiving to Russ afterward, when Russ showed up empty handed? I cannot help but think that the Emperor knew that the feud between Magnus and Russ was too great, and that it was better to have the wolves on the loyalist side during the heresy then have both the wolves AND the 1k sons be traitors. Magnus was fethed either way, so condoning Russ' actions post-facto was the Emperor's way of salvaging what he could from the situation.
"I mean come on, if it were anyone else but Russ who led the attack on Prospero they'd be declared excommunicate traitoris before they could even blink, especially since it went in defiance of a direct order from the Emperor himself." complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
"Then maybe it is time to consider doing what the Emperor suggested,’ Sanguinius said.Horus shook his head emphatically. ‘I refused that on Ullanor, honour though it was. I’ll not contemplate it again.’‘Things change. You are Warmaster now. All the Legions As-tartes must recognise the pre-eminence of the XVI Legion. Per-haps some need to be reminded.’Horus snorted. ‘I don’t see Russ trying to clean up his berserk horde and rebrand them to court respect.’‘Leman Russ is not Warmaster,’ said Sanguinius. ‘Your title changed, brother, at the Emperor’s command, so that all the rest of us would be in no mistake as to the power you wield and the trust the Emperor placed in you. Perhaps the same thing must happen to your Legion."
"‘At Ullanor,’ the first captain answered, ‘the beloved Emperor advised our commander to rename the XVI Legion, so there might be no mistake as to the power of our authority.’‘What name did he wish us to take?’ Loken asked.‘The Sons of Horus,’ Abaddon replied"
"That is what you must master. One day, you must command my armies, my instruments of war, as if they were an extension of your own person. Man and horse, as one, galloping the heavens, submitting to no foe. At Ullanor, he gave me this."
"Cassar gave him a withering glare, and said, 'Enough. The War Council will be done soon, and I'll not have it said that the Legio
Mortis wasn't ready to do the Emperor's bidding.'
'You mean Horus's bidding,' corrected Jonah.
'We have been over this before, my friend,' said Cassar. 'Horus's authority comes from the Emperor. We forget that at our peril.'
'That's as maybe, but it's been many a dark and bloody day since we've fought with the Emperor beside us, hasn't it? But hasn't Horus
always been there for us on every battlefield?"
"'No,' said Horus. 'I was not. I was simply the one who most embodied the Emperor's need at that time. You see, for the first three
decades of the Great Crusade I fought alongside the Emperor, and I alone felt the full weight of his ambition to rale the galaxy. He
passed that vision to me and I carried it with me in my heart as we forged our path across the stars. It was a grand adventure we were
on, system after system reunited with the Master of Mankind. You cannot imagine what it was like to live in such times, Miss Vivar.'
'It sounds magnificent."
To say Russ 'disobeyed Horus is seriously dishonest. You are ignoring that Horus had full authority when it came to the crusade. If Horus didn't give new orders then you could call that disobeying. I mean He changed his mind about taking Magnus prisoner, so the new orders had new information so obviously he'd follow the new orders.
pm713 wrote: It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
I was under the Impression that he did use that weaponry to wipe the planet, just not in the areas that the wolves were fighting.
He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
This is incorrect...
Proof:
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils.
This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca. This shield, as hard and impenetrable as those generating it could mentally conceive, proved completely proof against the fearsome orbital bombardment directed at Tizca, even though sympathetic damage to the kine-shield killed several members of the cult maintaining the shield.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
See my quote above.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
It is not complete speculation to say that people in the 30K and 40K universe who unwttingly aid chaos are often treated the same as willing traitors. Magnus is a prime example. The Space Marines who fought against the Imperium under orders from the Astral Claws during the badab war where harshly punished despite having no way of knowing their orders were traitorous. Only Russ seems to get special treatment in this regard.
Also, the Emperor condoned the attack on Prospero after the fact, not before. In my mind it was a move motivated by the political reality of the Horus Heresy rather than the Emperor really changing his mind about wanting Magnus arrested, but I fully admit that is speculation. I see no reason why the Emperor would order Magnus arrested, and then when Russ comes back saying "I burned his world and tried to kill him instead of arresting him" the emperor says "ok that's perfectly fine".
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
This is incorrect...
Proof:
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils.
This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca. This shield, as hard and impenetrable as those generating it could mentally conceive, proved completely proof against the fearsome orbital bombardment directed at Tizca, even though sympathetic damage to the kine-shield killed several members of the cult maintaining the shield.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
See my quote above.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
It is not complete speculation to say that people in the 30K and 40K universe who unwttingly aid chaos are often treated the same as willing traitors. Magnus is a prime example. The Space Marines who fought against the Imperium under orders from the Astral Claws during the badab war where harshly punished despite having no way of knowing their orders were traitorous. Only Russ seems to get special treatment in this regard.
Also, the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus after the fact, not before. In my mind it was a move motivated by the political reality of the Horus Heresy rather than the Emperor really changing his mind about wanting Magnus arrested, but I fully admit that is speculation. I see no reason why the Emperor would order Magnus arrested, and then when Russ comes back saying "I burned his world and tried to kill him instead of arresting him" the emperor says "ok that's perfectly fine".
Still complete speculation.
Doesn't matter if it was after the fact, he wouldn't rebuke Russ after the fact if he condoned it is the point. Well Russ never met the Emperor when he came back, he met with Magnus. But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
You aren't saying why, otherwise you wouldn't have said 'if any other legion had done that they'd be censured' if you weren't being biased you'd simply say 'Why did the Emperor not censure him.' Again the Emperor told Malcador that he condoned his actions not Russ so he isn't trying to not alienate him. Whats to alienate anyway, he could have shown his disapproval without censuring him, I mean this is the person that humiliated Lorgar in incredible fashion and the Emperor said while the Heresy was happening that Russ would never turn traitor, he wasn't afraid of that, I don't think he treats the Primarchs with kid gloves.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Exactly the only people he talked to were Malcador and Ra, and Corax once.
BrianDavion wrote: Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Sure, but that still means Russ got off the hook because of the political situation.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You aren't saying why, otherwise you wouldn't have said 'if any other legion had done that they'd be censured' if you weren't being biased you'd simply say 'Why did the Emperor not censure him.' Again the Emperor told Malcador that he condoned his actions not Russ so he isn't trying to not alienate him. Whats to alienate anyway, he could have shown his disapproval without censuring him, I mean this is the person that humiliated Lorgar in incredible fashion and the Emperor said while the Heresy was happening that Russ would never turn traitor, he wasn't afraid of that, I don't think he treats the Primarchs with kid gloves.
I still maintain that censuring Russ for Prospero, even not to his face would have been very alienating... But, I would like to hear your theory then, why Russ was not censured for Prospero?
BrianDavion wrote: Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Sure, but that still means Russ got off the hook because of the political situation.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You aren't saying why, otherwise you wouldn't have said 'if any other legion had done that they'd be censured' if you weren't being biased you'd simply say 'Why did the Emperor not censure him.' Again the Emperor told Malcador that he condoned his actions not Russ so he isn't trying to not alienate him. Whats to alienate anyway, he could have shown his disapproval without censuring him, I mean this is the person that humiliated Lorgar in incredible fashion and the Emperor said while the Heresy was happening that Russ would never turn traitor, he wasn't afraid of that, I don't think he treats the Primarchs with kid gloves.
I would like to hear your theory then, why Russ was not censured for Prospero?
Because the Emperor condoned his actions. And the Emperor knew he was following orders.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Because the Emperor condoned his actions. And the Emperor knew he was following orders.
If the Emperor truly wanted Prospero destroyed, then why did he not order it? He has done it before, (possibly to two legions), why then did he order Magnus arrested and not killed, and made it SPECIFIC that he wanted Magnus arrested?
Also, I have already pointed out that "just following orders" is not a valid excuse for aiding chaos in 30k or 40k, and have given multiple examples in the lore where other people were punished harshly for unwittingly aiding chaos. Magnus being the prime example.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Because the Emperor condoned his actions. And the Emperor knew he was following orders.
If the Emperor truly wanted Prospero destroyed, then why did he not order it? He has done it before, (possibly to two legions), why then did he order Magnus arrested and not killed, and made it SPECIFIC that he wanted Magnus arrested?
Also, I have already pointed out that "just following orders" is not a valid excuse for aiding chaos in 30k or 40k, and have given multiple examples in the lore where other people were punished harshly for unwittingly aiding chaos. Magnus being the prime example.
He didn't, after the fact he condoned it. Just following orders is a valid excuse you think its not because you want Russ to be wrong in his decision, he wasn't told to aid chaos, he didn't know he was aiding them. This is absurd to say Russ followed chaos, I mean I'll say it again you are so biased. Magnus knew on some level he was following chaos, the daemon on Aghoru told him he sold his soul and yet he still used sorcery, even after the Emperor told him not to and he did. Magnus was not called into censure for following chaos though, he was called into censure for using sorcery when told not to. Magnus got what he deserved, he turned to chaos, that you can sympathise with him and not Russ is ridiculous for merely following orders. Look what Magnus has done to the Ipmerium now and yet all you care about is Russ following orders and trying to say he meant for what happened.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He didn't, after the fact he condoned it. Just following orders is a valid excuse you think its not because you want Russ to be wrong in his decision, he wasn't told to aid chaos, he didn't know he was aiding them. This is absurd to say Russ followed chaos, I mean I'll say it again you are so biased. Magnus knew on some level he was following chaos, the daemon on Aghoru told him he sold his soul and yet he still used sorcery, even after the Emperor told him not to and he did. Magnus was not called into censure for following chaos though, he was called into censure for using sorcery when told not to. Magnus got what he deserved, he turned to chaos, that you can sympathise with him and not Russ is ridiculous for merely following orders. Look what Magnus has done to the Ipmerium now and yet all you care about is Russ following orders and trying to say he meant for what happened.
Setting aside your babbling about me being biased, and your irrelevant remarks about Magnus "deserving it" you haven't answered my question.
If as you say, the Emperor really wanted Prospero destroyed and Magnus killed, why did he not order Russ to do that?
Everything hinges on how Magnus reacted to the approach of Leman Russ. If the Cyclops truly was what many of wish he was, he would have turned himself and his Legion over to the Wolf King. Propsero would have been spared annihilation. The splendor of Tizca would not be just a tragic memory.
Magnus was indeed manipulated by Chaos but that was not the immediate conflict between the VIth and XVth Legions. The shadow of the Ruinous Powers loomed in the background but the foreground of this clash was the issue of Magnus's stark disobenience. In the first part, Magnus had in peril of utter destruction sworn before the face of the Emperor to honor the Edict of Nikaea. Please let's not kid ourselves about what fate awaited Magnus on Terra. There would be no trial in the sense that Magnus could be found innocent and absolved or even pardoned. The Cyclops had already transgressed the most dire command of the Emperor and the consequence had already been spelled out between them, face to face, from the Master of Mankind's own lips. In the second part, the disobedience of Magnus in not surrendering to the duly appointed enforcer of his fate was not a remote, unforseen possibility. The Emperor did not dispatch an emissary to invite Magnus to judgment but rather an executioner to demand his submission on pain of death. It was always possible that Magnus would die before submitting. Of course the Emperor did not send Leman Russ without knowing as much.
Therefore the Emperor would not balk at the actual outcome. The issue of Horus's intervening order is secondary, but in any case would not reflect poorly on Russ. Treachery is more readily perceived by the treacherous than the faithful.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
This is incorrect...
Proof:
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils.
This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca. This shield, as hard and impenetrable as those generating it could mentally conceive, proved completely proof against the fearsome orbital bombardment directed at Tizca, even though sympathetic damage to the kine-shield killed several members of the cult maintaining the shield.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
See my quote above.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
It is not complete speculation to say that people in the 30K and 40K universe who unwttingly aid chaos are often treated the same as willing traitors. Magnus is a prime example. The Space Marines who fought against the Imperium under orders from the Astral Claws during the badab war where harshly punished despite having no way of knowing their orders were traitorous. Only Russ seems to get special treatment in this regard.
Also, the Emperor condoned the attack on Prospero after the fact, not before. In my mind it was a move motivated by the political reality of the Horus Heresy rather than the Emperor really changing his mind about wanting Magnus arrested, but I fully admit that is speculation. I see no reason why the Emperor would order Magnus arrested, and then when Russ comes back saying "I burned his world and tried to kill him instead of arresting him" the emperor says "ok that's perfectly fine".
What am I supposed to see in that quote? None of that is a special weapon. Nothing suggests that was special beyond the amount of weapons used and the time they were used for.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He didn't, after the fact he condoned it. Just following orders is a valid excuse you think its not because you want Russ to be wrong in his decision, he wasn't told to aid chaos, he didn't know he was aiding them. This is absurd to say Russ followed chaos, I mean I'll say it again you are so biased. Magnus knew on some level he was following chaos, the daemon on Aghoru told him he sold his soul and yet he still used sorcery, even after the Emperor told him not to and he did. Magnus was not called into censure for following chaos though, he was called into censure for using sorcery when told not to. Magnus got what he deserved, he turned to chaos, that you can sympathise with him and not Russ is ridiculous for merely following orders. Look what Magnus has done to the Ipmerium now and yet all you care about is Russ following orders and trying to say he meant for what happened.
Setting aside your babbling about me being biased, and your irrelevant remarks about Magnus "deserving it" you haven't answered my question.
If as you say, the Emperor really wanted Prospero destroyed and Magnus killed, why did he not order Russ to do that?
I actually did answer your question. He didn't order it because after the fact he condoned it. So why would he order it before... Your question makes no sense, he would only order the burning of Prospero if he knew what was going to happen, he did know what happened after Russ did what he did, that's why he condoned it 'then'.
up the emperors work meaning he wouldn't have forced him to sit on the throne meaning big E would have been in the fight and the heresy would have been over quickly
