Example in case, the SW codex (English version) being obsolete before you even get it in your hands.

Ideal scenario, imho and which I have advocated previously, is to make available both Apple and Android codexes - with equal functionality you damn Apple fanboys (another rant for another day) - which autoupdates.

If I had pre-ordered the SW codex I would be pretty darn miffed.

The reasoning I can only think of instead of GW moving to an app bsed solution is that they have become addicted to the mark-up they can make on hardcopy codexes - I am afraid I don't have any stats to back this up it is just a logical conclusion.

OK, if people want fluff then sell hardcopy fluff books for each faction but don't shoehorn people into buying sub-par books which are out of date within a month or two.

Any other thoughts on how GW can address this?

Cheers.

It's not just markup* - a LOT of people are not digitally inclined. Maybe they don't own or use a tablet or perhaps they just prefer paper over digital.

Also when you walk in the shop its a lot easier to get convinced into buying into an army when the staffer (3rd party or GW store) can put a book in your hand with lore, painting, photos, stats and everything you need right there in your hands.

The books sell and the majority of the information within them remains viable; plus a lot of people - like myself - prefer physical over digital reference material. (there's a recent thread on the very topic).



Yes books in physical formats mean that updates from a more regularly updating GW rules system, will fall out of date quicker. But the bulk of the book remains viable and the FAQ/Errata updates are small in size. Many are refinements of game terms or rules; others are point changes which affects only one page in the book.


I totally understand the frustration, but physical books still hold their value and their market appeal. If you took them away GW and gamers would honestly lose out.




Now GW could take a bold step and say each physical purchase comes with a free digital purchase. That might ease some ruffled feathers for some who like to use both and want the updates. Though lets not forget that FAQ and such are all released free and are easy to print out if required.



*If it was GW could just stop making print books altogether and just mark up the digital versions however they wanted for even more profit!

And what do you purpose for those of us who simply prefer a hard copy codex. I'd be fine with hard copy rules - all the fluff myself. But I hate reading my army books on Epubs or Pdf. It's been more trouble than flipping pages during games.

Oh, please don't get me wrong. I am very much a fan of hardcopy codexes and own a few of the collectors editions i.e. Deathwatch and Drukhari.

What I am not a fan of is the rules contained therein being invalidated within a very short period of time.

I don't want my extra pricey collectors edition looking like a bomb went off in a Post-It factory.

Here's the thing - you can either have codex that remain up to date for years or a more reactive fast adapting rules system that allows for corrections via regular FAQ updates.

Now you can argue that GW spends more time and resources balancing and that is a very fair comment, but even if they do that then there will still be adjustments. Even the kings of balancing such as Blizzard make continual changes to the balance in their games and they are often held up rather high in balance terms.

Problem is with gw not caring about balance so we get rapid fire changes designed to get you buy new models

I can't think of many instances where GW changed the rules of a Codex after publication to make people buy more models.

Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.

More salt about the SW codex being obsolete before it's even out. Yes a company maid a mistake and tried to make up for it with a free PDF. Is it ideal no but mistakes happen at least GW didn't put out something laced with toxic chemicals. A lot of people like hard copy codexs they have that nice real weight to them they feel better than a tablet.

First it's not obsolete. Obsolete means unusable. It's still usable either as is in casual games or ideally with a short PDF.

Second, as many have stated a lot of people simply prefer print. My preferred method for referencing rules mid game is Battlescribe. Failing that, I'll use the print book. I really hate using large PDF documents though, I find it incredibly clunky.

It's not GW who's hooked on "hardcopy codex crack" - it's the players.

I agree with Stux - hardcopies are easier to use in actual games. PDFs on tablets are clunky and you have to worry about the battery. It's also not especially difficult to update your codex - at least for prices and such. I just write in mine. Not like you can resell them for anything anyway.

I keep a print out of erratas incase they ever come up - and they haven't yet. Most of those changes are fairly well known.
However, battlescribe is a lot easier to use for list building.

If there was anything codex-wise I'd wish for was simply smaller physical codexes without fluff - basically like the indexes. Or maybe even the ultra-codex. Just a single codex with all unit stats, special rules, and a book-mark ribbon. If they released that after all of the codexes were out, i'd buy it.

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.

Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

 Overread wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.

Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

A codex with the rules removed is not the same as a Black Library novel though, it's a page or two of description on each unit in a faction.

 Brother Castor wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.

Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

A codex with the rules removed is not the same as a Black Library novel though, it's a page or two of description on each unit in a faction.

...

Have you actually looked in a codex? There's a lot more than that.

 Overread wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.

Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

They don't pay $40 US for them though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.

Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

They don't pay $40 US for them though.

The special edition ones are at least that!

imo, all the rules should be free online pdfs that you can download and print. Codexes should be primarily focused on lore and hobby/paint tips (especially for each subfaction in the codex). Throwing the rules into print makes it difficult to revamp units and abilities, the most we've gotten are a couple core rules changes (more like restrictions to existing rules) and various minor errata and points tweaks. With the current format it's impossible to add a whole new mechanic or drastically change stats without completely invalidating purchases, which is why changes have been fairly tame.
Until we get a new core rulebook, nothing truly groundbreaking will happen. Then we'd also likely need to buy new codexes.
Plus, you guys saw how fast they made a Renegade Knight PDF. That thing was done almost overnight. Meanwhile books takes months to plan, print and ship. If we didn't have books, we'd likely already have all codex-equivalent rules out by now. And when new models come out they can just update the PDF to include them.

Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.

Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

They don't pay $40 US for them though.

The special edition ones are at least that!

There are special edition novels? Wtf?

Stux wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

A codex with the rules removed is not the same as a Black Library novel though, it's a page or two of description on each unit in a faction.

...

Have you actually looked in a codex? There's a lot more than that.

Well in Codex: Space Marines (which I have in front of me now) if you ignore the 78 pages of rules, there's 109 pages of short 1 or 2 page sections introducing SM and describing the chapters and units, followed by 20 pages of photos of painted miniatures. Without the rules this codex would be very similar each edition and I just can't see it selling well.

I really like the combination of rules and description and clearly a lot of other people do too or GW wouldn't continue with the format. My current 8th edition codex is the same format as the Compendium I used for my SM army back in RT 25 years ago!

Hard rules should be free, while Codexes should be a "premium" hard copy rules along with lore, hobby tips, and gallery images (Like they use to be!) The only reason I can see for them to still exist is to make you pay more. Having free digital rules, in the long run, would help even more since it would allow more people to just pick up a box and start playing and allow them to just update the online document without worrying about having to individually send out updates to the ebooks (just have a section with the latest rules and upload a new file every so often when a set of FAQs or updates ship).

That would be an ideal world though, and we do not live in an ideal world unfortunately.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Hard rules should be free, while Codexes should be a "premium" hard copy rules along with lore, hobby tips, and gallery images (Like they use to be!) The only reason I can see for them to still exist is to make you pay more. Having free digital rules, in the long run, would help even more since it would allow more people to just pick up a box and start playing and allow them to just update the online document without worrying about having to individually send out updates to the ebooks (just have a section with the latest rules and upload a new file every so often when a set of FAQs or updates ship).

That would be an ideal world though, and we do not live in an ideal world unfortunately.

and how would they pay for those free rules?

Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.

giving away entire codices would mean they'd have to pay their rules writing team from their overhead.So the money loss to GW would be more then just a book or two they didn't sell. And because the rules would be a loss the beancounters running GW would likely have a skelliton crew doing the rules. If you think GW's rules now aren;t great, and aren't edited eneugh? they'd be even WORSE if the rules where free

BrianDavion wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.

giving away entire codices would mean they'd have to pay their rules writing team from their overhead.So the money loss to GW would be more then just a book or two they didn't sell. And because the rules would be a loss the beancounters running GW would likely have a skelliton crew doing the rules. If you think GW's rules now aren;t great, and aren't edited eneugh? they'd be even WORSE if the rules where free

Can’t disagree. The optimum situation is free, great rules, but I agree with what you say - a no-revenue stream would have a no-resource allocation from the bean counters. Free rules won’t miraculously sell double the models to pay for the shortfall. There’s a difference between doing a copy/paste Index from Knoghts to placate some fans and losing £25 per player per army. Not to mention £25 per player for the annual DLC.

Books aren’t going anywhere. I’m just glad the hardbacks are more survivable than the hideously overpriced pamphlet-sized paperback Codexes of old.

Hasbro (D&D 3°) proven years ago that hard rules available for free are good business. And they even allowed 3rd party material.

But at GW they think they're a special snowflake, and the constant underwhelming size of their operations (if you compare it with the extreme bigger popularity of the IP itself) proves that.
There is no chance that things will change soon.

GW is hooked on hard copies. It brings them a lot of money by selling codices for 32.50 Euro or more. This is part of their business model.

 Cybtroll wrote:
Hasbro (D&D 3°) proven years ago that hard rules available for free are good business. And they even allowed 3rd party material.

But at GW they think they're a special snowflake, and the constant underwhelming size of their operations (if you compare it with the extreme bigger popularity of the IP itself) proves that.
There is no chance that things will change soon.

the SRD was to allow the development of 3rd aprty content, thing is some things where kept out of it and exclusive to D&D proper. (it's why there are no beholders in Pathfinder)

If people keep buying the codexes in large numbers why would they change?

Personally, I’d be happy to pay the same, maybe a bit less, for the core rules/faction rules without a whacking great hard cover/hundreds of extraneous pages of background material I’ve read a hundred times before.

I totally understand there’s a place for the codices, for new players and completists, but I’d much prefer something more streamlined and conducive to use during games.

 Nazrak wrote:
I totally understand there’s a place for the codices, for new players and completists, but I’d much prefer something more streamlined and conducive to use during games.

That's why I use my codex when deciding on units to field and buy but use BattleScribe (with the codex open on the stratagems page) during a game.

 Brother Castor wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I totally understand there’s a place for the codices, for new players and completists, but I’d much prefer something more streamlined and conducive to use during games.

That's why I use my codex when deciding on units to field and buy but use BattleScribe (with the codex open on the stratagems page) during a game.

I actually prefer the data cards to the codex for Strats. That way I can put away ones that will never come up in the game, making it easier to remember the ones I can use haha

Stux wrote:
I actually prefer the data cards to the codex for Strats. That way I can put away ones that will never come up in the game, making it easier to remember the ones I can use haha

Don't give me a reason to 'need' the cards!

JohnnyHell wrote:Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.

wuestenfux wrote:GW is hooked on hard copies. It brings them a lot of money by selling codices for 32.50 Euro or more. This is part of their business model.

I don't see how this is a "lucritive revenue stream". They don't make many books, they sell out fast because of limited production run. Also they sell "Collector Editions" in small quantaties. So how is this a revenue stream? Quarenteed income? Hmmm, you might have a point in limited runs now. I never thought of that. Thanks JohnnyHell. That makes sense now.

Tyel wrote:If people keep buying the codexes in large numbers why would they change?

Ah but GW did change eh?

Thing is what is GW revenue stream? Is it selling books or plastic crack? The books should be for a "loss" so more miniatures are sold. Just like how Microsoft takes a "loss" on the Xbox but make up for it from the games. Maybe I am wrong, but I know back in the Kirby days I would have bought so much more miniatures if it wasn't for the books being so bloody expensive. Same goes for now that I am older and have other expenses to pay.

Maybe I am in the minority but I am sure if I had free codices I would be collecting almost every army. Since the books cost as much as minis just like it is now, it's either books or minis. I want the minis. If I need the books I can't buy the minis then. So I just get none.

Then again, maybe I am not GW target audiance. Just like how I don't go out and buy a Yatch, or Benz or a Rollex, I am not a loss sale for GW. So I guess it's me not GW. :(

a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

I already have enough mini's etc to carry around to a game, i dont need to be carrying an additional 300+pages of fluff to games, across multiple books.

Battlescribe has it's issues but it's achieving 70% of what you need to play the game the rest you have cards for or can memorize.

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)

Certainly not by removing my right to own the information I've purchased.

Also, codex is not invalid. By the "SW" logic ALL codices are obsolete the moment there is an errata or a CA.

I pay money for books to own outright. You may pay money for access rights if you wish, but let's keep that optional eh?

Dandelion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)

Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?

TBH I think the digital editions really suck, they're just such a pain to use compared to a physical book. You have to keep switching your device back on each time you want to look at it, then enter the passcode (or turn off the sleep function and drain your battery quickly and run the risk of it running out mid game) and you can't just open to the page you want, you have to click through until you find the page you want and if a model's rules are split across two or more pages that aren't next to each other in the book you have to keep going back and forth, which takes ages and really slows down gameplay for you and your opponent. With a book you can just pick it up and open it to the page you want and if you need to look at non adjacent pages you can just use your fingers to hold the different pages open. You also don;t have the added problem of potentially running out of battery during a game. Books are also far nicer to read. I'd never read the fluff of a digital codex as the ios and android book reading software is absolutely awful for the layout of the codecies/battletomes.
Yes I'm disappointed the wolves book got botched but I'd still much rather have a physical book than an Ebook, especially as GW charges the same prices for them.

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

That’s the point that I was going to make, but with the opposite argument: if you don’t buy the book, maybe they can sell you an extra squad of tac marines. This whole “well how will they pay their rules writers??” is dumb; GW is a corporation and all the money goes into a big pot that they pay their employees with. It’s not like model designers get paid out of the miniatures sales fund or the sales of dice get burned as an offering to the dice gods, it’s all GW money regardless of source.

While making rules free would lose some sales it wouldn’t lose all; some people would still buy the books for their army and some people would buy extra minis instead, offsetting the losses there. But even if the above weren’t true it would still be a good move because any competitive game needs the ability to be patched to improve, and right now hardcopy releases are holding 40k back from that. If updates enable 40k to become a better game then it becomes a game people want to start playing, and GW grows their player base resulting in a net of more sales and more profits. Put another way, a new $500 army covers the loss of 10 codex sales to existing players. The goal should be to get new players into the hobby, not keep milking the ones they have because new players are the only way for significant growth and you’re only getting new players if your game is worth playing.

BrianDavion wrote:


Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?

Well, if the paint changed color every month after you bought it then maybe it should be free... 'cause that's not the product I purchased.

Besides, no one is asking for free codexes, we're asking for free rules. You know, like how the core rules are free online?
So why not just have a document online that they can update whenever they want, because the players didn't pay for it and so there's no risk of invalidating anyone's purchases.
Why do you think the FAQs are set-up bi-annually? Because people were mad their brand new IG codex was invalid 2 weeks after release. Now look at the Space Wolves Codex, had the whole thing been online their would have been 0 problems adding in the sagas.

Long story short, physical rules are just clunky, and at this point I'd rather pay for updatable rules than a hard copy.

P.S. Your whole argument falls apart when this exists:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/AoS-App-2-Apple-2018

Dandelion wrote:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/AoS-App-2-Apple-2018

I've not played AOS so I didn't know that existed.

What would the WH40K equivalent be (in terms of rules)? The Battle Primer and all the datasheets from all the codexes? What about the faction-specific rules and stratagems, would they be in there too?

 Brother Castor wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/AoS-App-2-Apple-2018

I've not played AOS so I didn't know that existed.

What would the WH40K equivalent be (in terms of rules)? The Battle Primer and all the datasheets from all the codexes? What about the faction-specific rules and stratagems, would they be in there too?

It would just be the Datasheets. You'd need to buy the book for Strats, relics, psychic powers, and warlord traits.

Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

I already have enough mini's etc to carry around to a game, i dont need to be carrying an additional 300+pages of fluff to games, across multiple books.

Battlescribe has it's issues but it's achieving 70% of what you need to play the game the rest you have cards for or can memorize.

Yeah, hard agree with all this. I'd be nice to see something similar to BS put together that's an official GW version, allowing you to essentially create your own custom set of Datasheets for the units in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, I'd theoretically prefer a hard copy, but not a whopping great hardback book. I miss the 3rd ed. Codices sometimes…

Stux wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/AoS-App-2-Apple-2018

I've not played AOS so I didn't know that existed.

What would the WH40K equivalent be (in terms of rules)? The Battle Primer and all the datasheets from all the codexes? What about the faction-specific rules and stratagems, would they be in there too?

It would just be the Datasheets. You'd need to buy the book for Strats, relics, psychic powers, and warlord traits.

Right - so not much different to buying a the latest miniatures that come with datasheets and downloading the Battle Primer, just in an app. GW won't stop selling rules all the time their customers will pay for them. Although I'm happy to pay for rules, if it wasn't for BattleScribe allowing me to manage the points adjustments I think I'd be less happy. If GW do produce an app for WH40K that's what needs to be in it, and I think BattleScribe has done GW a huge favour in the meantime.

 Nazrak wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

I already have enough mini's etc to carry around to a game, i dont need to be carrying an additional 300+pages of fluff to games, across multiple books.

Battlescribe has it's issues but it's achieving 70% of what you need to play the game the rest you have cards for or can memorize.

Yeah, hard agree with all this. I'd be nice to see something similar to BS put together that's an official GW version, allowing you to essentially create your own custom set of Datasheets for the units in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, I'd theoretically prefer a hard copy, but not a whopping great hardback book. I miss the 3rd ed. Codices sometimes…

Having aahrd cover codex is nice sometimes but a pain othertimes. in an ideal world they'd offer a "collection edition" that is the hardcover we have now, and a "Gamers edition" that is black and white and a very low budget "just the facts ma'am" version. that said it proably wou;dn't work as the end result would be to increase the price of BOTH options due to losses of economy of scale. If we're going to pay 50 bucks anyway, I'd rather a nice crisp hard cover with pretty colour pictures.

I have a couple authors that are friends, who have told me that..

1. Electronic out sell dead tree by around a 3-1 margin. This might see some variation in game books as are a reference material.

2. This is expected to increase. The money you save for buying a reader/tablet is very quickly made up, and readers/tablet are cheap.

3. Research shows most people don't even read on readers or tablets. They read on their phones.

At some point in the future, we seem to be heading to where the Epub is going to cost a smaller fraction of the Print book cost. When that happens, I suspect that you will see a massive rework in people's spending habits on Codex.

Reemule don't forget the novel market is very different. E-readers and such shine for novels because you don't flip back and forth page to page; you are turning one page to the next for pretty much the whole story with perhaps one or two reference points (eg map or character list).

That in itself makes e-readers; tablets and phones more ideal. Plus you only need to see a few sentences at a time. As long as the refresh rate is good enough for you scroll at a good pace you can keep reading without pause.


Reference books are totally different as you're flip flicking back and forth all the time; plus you often need to see certain blocks of information as a whole not in parts (so a tiny screen can be a huge issue).



Also the publishing market is a bit odd at present. The big publishers are still selling well for hard copies; but getting into that line of publishing is harder; a lot more are now going self published on e-books so that has an immediate impact on the market surveys if you include all the self published material.

 Overread wrote:
Reemule don't forget the novel market is very different. E-readers and such shine for novels because you don't flip back and forth page to page; you are turning one page to the next for pretty much the whole story with perhaps one or two reference points (eg map or character list).

That in itself makes e-readers; tablets and phones more ideal. Plus you only need to see a few sentences at a time. As long as the refresh rate is good enough for you scroll at a good pace you can keep reading without pause.


Reference books are totally different as you're flip flicking back and forth all the time; plus you often need to see certain blocks of information as a whole not in parts (so a tiny screen can be a huge issue).



Also the publishing market is a bit odd at present. The big publishers are still selling well for hard copies; but getting into that line of publishing is harder; a lot more are now going self published on e-books so that has an immediate impact on the market surveys if you include all the self published material.

I disagree. An my reasons are...

First I don't see people using Codex books and Rules at the table. I see people using the old Battle Primer, I see people using printed off Data cards, I see people using Battlescribe print outs. While I'm sure there are people using print books in game situations, This seems to taper off...

leading to the second point, that GW perhaps inadvertently is encouraging this.. And the way they are doing this is with PDF Faq's. While I'm not trying to open the Space Wolf Dex, but for almost each and every dex, you now need to have those on hand or accessible to be playing. And it seems to be a slippery slope to... well I;ll just play with the PDF I happen to have of the Dex also..

And the Third point is 8th edition its self.. 8th edition returned a huge number of players. (should be pretty evident) and as many of those players were away, they learned or picked up other systems. And I believe they created some demand on certain modernization, ease of use in the game. I think that GW is bending towards those asks. And many of them have an expectation on using more online resources. Army builders,online faqs and rules, and such.

As another observation, GW arranged the rules in a terrible fashion. Even the battle primer (best of the lot on clear rules for 8th) is not arranged in a clear fashion. While I think there is value in the idea that your going to have pages of fluff and photographs and painting in books, I don't care to have it. I'd rather to have a clear out line of the rules with the best index possible, and more information in a logical fashion.

 Overread wrote:
Reemule don't forget the novel market is very different. E-readers and such shine for novels because you don't flip back and forth page to page; you are turning one page to the next for pretty much the whole story with perhaps one or two reference points (eg map or character list).

That in itself makes e-readers; tablets and phones more ideal. Plus you only need to see a few sentences at a time. As long as the refresh rate is good enough for you scroll at a good pace you can keep reading without pause.


Reference books are totally different as you're flip flicking back and forth all the time; plus you often need to see certain blocks of information as a whole not in parts (so a tiny screen can be a huge issue).



Also the publishing market is a bit odd at present. The big publishers are still selling well for hard copies; but getting into that line of publishing is harder; a lot more are now going self published on e-books so that has an immediate impact on the market surveys if you include all the self published material.

I exclusively buy, read and use books on electronic media now, including my GW rules, and I can tell you that, with a good tablet and app, along with the quality of epub3s GW is putting out now, the e-reader beats print media even for reference books. For example, I can locate a specific datasheet or rule page in any given book I own faster than someone can pick up the correct book off the table and locate the page.

This is, however, very much dependent on owning a good enough tablet and being the sort that is comfortable having the thing around constantly.

Dandelion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.

Thank you so much for this.

BrianDavion wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)

Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?

So you have no reply to his answer and you change the subject. Way to go there. This is a debate. You disagree with what I said. A great explanation was given. All you can do is mock it? How about replying to what he actually said. I am not a mind reader. I don't know what you ment by this comment except for trying to mock or shame which I am sure is against rule #1.

So do you have a reply to this excelent response?

Davor wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.

Thank you so much for this.

BrianDavion wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)

Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?

So you have no reply to his answer and you change the subject. Way to go there. This is a debate. You disagree with what I said. A great explanation was given. All you can do is mock it? How about replying to what he actually said. I am not a mind reader. I don't know what you ment by this comment except for trying to mock or shame which I am sure is against rule #1.

So do you have a reply to this excelent response?

Ok let me explain since my point apparently was missed by you. I go out and buy a box of space Marines. I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing. This means you have to buy glue, also if you want to field a painted army, you have to buy paints and brushes (figure about5 pots of paint fot 5 bucks Canadian? and then a handful of cheap brushes for about 15 bucks) sure not everyone uses a painted army, but you also get the basic core rules for a unit in it's box now, and the basic basic core rules for 40k are free online now, So yeah if I bought a box of intercessors and my buddy bought a box of death guard we could play without buying a codex, our options are just much more limited. to get into the game in a serious way though? yeah there's a basic cost of entry. And when you consider the amount of money spent on a typical 40k army a 50 dollar codex is chicken feed.

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.

I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.

I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.

the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.

I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.

the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

It's not that we don't care it's that it gets annoying buying the same throwaway fluff with every codex and being forced to carry around 200 unnecessary pages to a game.
Heck GW has done what I would want a proper codex to look like before with the Mont'ka expansion for 7th a rules book and fluff book not a combined 300 page book that I have to carry to every game.

Do you really need the first 100 ish pages of every codex at your game? It's like randomly deciding to pack a black library book ontop of your codex for every game just because you might read it at home some time.

A printable PDF that has some fancy formatting would be fine, GW could sell us army-specific 3-ring binders.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.

I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.

the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

It's not that we don't care it's that it gets annoying buying the same throwaway fluff with every codex and being forced to carry around 200 unnecessary pages to a game.
Heck GW has done what I would want a proper codex to look like before with the Mont'ka expansion for 7th a rules book and fluff book not a combined 300 page book that I have to carry to every game.

Do you really need the first 100 ish pages of every codex at your game? It's like randomly deciding to pack a black library book ontop of your codex for every game just because you might read it at home some time.

Actually I useally take a novel with me whenever I go out in case I have to wait around or something, but I do get your point

I'd also like to chip in that when I play 40k I usually just bring my codex and the little paper rulebook from the starter box. I'm not sure what all these claims of clutter are about.

And I agree with Davion. Noncommittal players are a bummer. I just gave my buddy a load of minis because he showed an interest and was pretty okay at painting. Haven't had a match in months! So, kinda frustrating. I don't think a lower entry point into the game should be looked at as an incentive for new players, honestly the starter kits we have now are pretty excellent. If a lower cost hobby was the goal, the pursuit of that endeavor should not take place for the benefit of new players, but rather for us veterans. We are the ones who have been collecting thousands of dollars worth of toys. That being said now, the start collecting boxes are kind of for us grognards. They have no rules or extra gubbins, just a great deal on models that appeals to every collection.

If you wanted GW to actually enrich the hobby the answer would not be to take things away from customers for the sake of cost expediency, but rather to add value to your line by providing more opportunities to save money on bundled models. I would probably throw money at a $100can 'keep collecting' box. To use SM as an example a 10 man Dev Squad, with a Landspeeder or maybe 3 bikers would probably sell like hot cakes. Eldar Keep Collecting box, 10 Guardians, 3 Windriders and 8 Dire Avengers. I could keep going...

BrianDavion wrote:
[Ok let me explain since my point apparently was missed by you. I go out and buy a box of space Marines. I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing. This means you have to buy glue, also if you want to field a painted army, you have to buy paints and brushes (figure about5 pots of paint fot 5 bucks Canadian? and then a handful of cheap brushes for about 15 bucks) sure not everyone uses a painted army, but you also get the basic core rules for a unit in it's box now, and the basic basic core rules for 40k are free online now, So yeah if I bought a box of intercessors and my buddy bought a box of death guard we could play without buying a codex, our options are just much more limited. to get into the game in a serious way though? yeah there's a basic cost of entry. And when you consider the amount of money spent on a typical 40k army a 50 dollar codex is chicken feed.

Thank you very much for your explanation. Greatly appreciated. I rather get minis than books. I have been buying codices for a while and it's basically same old same old. Same fluff with maybe a new sentence or two added in. So since I already have the fluff basically just wanting the new rules and points is all that is needed. I am in the hobby for the minis. So basically what I see is paying $50 just for new points and rules seems like such a waste when that money can be going to new minis.

This is plastic crack after all. So buying more minis, keeps on buying more minis. Buying a book takes away from buying the minis. I could have bought the new Tau minis, or new Chaos but I don't want to spend $100 on a 2 books that have fluff just seems a waste when I already have it and just want the rules/points. That could have been $100 of minis instead. My answer is not any more wrong than your answer. We are both looking at the hobby at a different way.

While in the end the money is chicken feed. Starting off is not chicken feed. Again you look at it as "playing the game" I am looking at it as "collecting minis, painting and modelling them now and eventually playing them later." So buying a book is just not my sort of fun. Maybe it is for you.

Well as you quoted me I feel the need to reply...

BrianDavion wrote:
the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

I didn't say there wasn't a demand for fluff did I? I said I didn't think there would be demand for a fluff-only codex.

BrianDavion wrote:
In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

I'm not part of that mindset either am I? I said I love the fluff plus rules format and always have.

Davor wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
[Ok let me explain since my point apparently was missed by you. I go out and buy a box of space Marines. I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing. This means you have to buy glue, also if you want to field a painted army, you have to buy paints and brushes (figure about5 pots of paint fot 5 bucks Canadian? and then a handful of cheap brushes for about 15 bucks) sure not everyone uses a painted army, but you also get the basic core rules for a unit in it's box now, and the basic basic core rules for 40k are free online now, So yeah if I bought a box of intercessors and my buddy bought a box of death guard we could play without buying a codex, our options are just much more limited. to get into the game in a serious way though? yeah there's a basic cost of entry. And when you consider the amount of money spent on a typical 40k army a 50 dollar codex is chicken feed.

Thank you very much for your explanation. Greatly appreciated. I rather get minis than books. I have been buying codices for a while and it's basically same old same old. Same fluff with maybe a new sentence or two added in. So since I already have the fluff basically just wanting the new rules and points is all that is needed. I am in the hobby for the minis. So basically what I see is paying $50 just for new points and rules seems like such a waste when that money can be going to new minis.

This is plastic crack after all. So buying more minis, keeps on buying more minis. Buying a book takes away from buying the minis. I could have bought the new Tau minis, or new Chaos but I don't want to spend $100 on a 2 books that have fluff just seems a waste when I already have it and just want the rules/points. That could have been $100 of minis instead. My answer is not any more wrong than your answer. We are both looking at the hobby at a different way.

While in the end the money is chicken feed. Starting off is not chicken feed. Again you look at it as "playing the game" I am looking at it as "collecting minis, painting and modelling them now and eventually playing them later." So buying a book is just not my sort of fun. Maybe it is for you.

thing is that the codices aren't even nesscarily made with us old timers in mind, but they are also designed to give new comers to a faction a feel for the faction, weather or not codices do a good job of that these days is a differant debate and one I think there is room for improvement on (codices eaither do read as a simple dry "here aare the facts" or like a 14 year old hyper active child describing the army. but my ideal for a codex would proably be more expensive)

The reasoning I can only think of instead of GW moving to an app bsed solution is that they have become addicted to the mark-up they can make on hardcopy codexes - I am afraid I don't have any stats to back this up it is just a logical conclusion

The mark-up would be higher for app based codices because the production costs after the first copy are basically zilch.
Files are terrible collector's items, though.

I have used .ePub codexes, and the hard- and soft-cover types.

I am far more likely to use a soft-copy codex at the table.
Hard-copy is heavier and it all adds up when you throw the BRB and latest Chapter Approved in the bag along with the codex.
Both types can be bookmarked for quicker access to the right unit page.

Digital copies are handy away from the game, to reference on the fly when an idea pops up.
But, flicking through a digital version can be a pain, and having to worry about battery life is not part of the game.
Loading times are infuriating, when you just need to find that certain number or rule.

Also, if hard-back didn't exist any more, prices for all versions would have to drop to the soft-back levels.
So, that won't happen.

I'd be okay with softcover coming back - and even P&B images.

BrianDavion wrote:
I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing.

Wrong. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Space-Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skinnereal wrote:
I have used .ePub codexes, and the hard- and soft-cover types.

I am far more likely to use a soft-copy codex at the table.
Hard-copy is heavier and it all adds up when you throw the BRB and latest Chapter Approved in the bag along with the codex.
Both types can be bookmarked for quicker access to the right unit page.

Digital copies are handy away from the game, to reference on the fly when an idea pops up.
But, flicking through a digital version can be a pain, and having to worry about battery life is not part of the game.
Loading times are infuriating, when you just need to find that certain number or rule.

Also, if hard-back didn't exist any more, prices for all versions would have to drop to the soft-back levels.
So, that won't happen.

This. When I bought my 4th edition Tau codex it was something like £12. Just before it was replaced in 6th, it was £18. Then the 6th edition codex was £30, for reused fluff from 2 editions ago, removal of wargear and the introduction of the Riptide.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing.

Wrong. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Space-Marines

Do they still make those? hmm thought they woulda canceled em, I stand corrected, still the over all gist of my point stands. and you're gonna wanna glue those guys anyway

BrianDavion wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing.

Wrong. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Space-Marines

Do they still make those? hmm thought they woulda canceled em, I stand corrected, still the over all gist of my point stands. and you're gonna wanna glue those guys anyway

Check out the new AoS kits all snap fit "no glue required" if you don't mind gaping seam lines etc.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.

I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.

the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

It's not that we don't care it's that it gets annoying buying the same throwaway fluff with every codex and being forced to carry around 200 unnecessary pages to a game.
Heck GW has done what I would want a proper codex to look like before with the Mont'ka expansion for 7th a rules book and fluff book not a combined 300 page book that I have to carry to every game.

Do you really need the first 100 ish pages of every codex at your game? It's like randomly deciding to pack a black library book ontop of your codex for every game just because you might read it at home some time.

The End times / 40k Campaign packs were wonderful for that - lovely great tome of stories and a SEPERATE slim book of rules - not sure if they did not sell well enough as they seem to have stopped doing it.

The first AOS books sort of tried to do it but in one book and were not bad but suffered from the fact it was almost exclusively Stormcast, Khorne, Stormcast, Khorne, Stormcast, Khorne etc. Again it looks like they have abandoned the idea.

So it seems from skimming this that there are several thoughts, positions and arguments.

It seems to me there needs to be a combination of things, so I'll propose some things to the debate.

ePubs needs to continue with both the rules and fluff. This allows more convenience, less paper waste and transport and more frequent and easily deliverable updates. There does however seem to be a need for the fluff and rules/datasheets to be seperated out somewhat into a more convenient format for the actual game.

People like to buy the hard copies. This is for the fluff and pictures, the rules, and as collector pieces. So I'd propose a collectors artwork codex (which they already do) and then a standard game edition which has a smaller removable rules booklet.

I'd prefer the ePubs to be available as a subscription model where you pay say £100 or £120 a year and get all the codex ePubs which are updated when required. So really you aren't subscribing to the codexes, you're subscribing to the rules + pictures and lore added in. GW get a secure income, gamers get to spread out their costs and get all the books.
I'd also like the hardcopy rules and datasheets in the same format/size (maybe A5 cardboard?) so they can be printed out/bought and replaced easily. They can be taken in a binder, and replaced if updated, without ruining a whole book. Also if you don't have a unit, you don't take the datasheet in your binder. People can also ensure that everyone is working of the latest version of a datacard/sheet/rule as the version number can be printed on them and a list of latest version numbers of each unit or card etc can be found on GWs website.

One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.

tneva82 wrote:
One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.

i second that.
I'm not sure I would trust GW to be running a subscription model for rules.

Another area of concern would be the ability to use it without data on or such etc etc I'm not yet at the point I'm willing to accept required internet connection for a 40k game.

tneva82 wrote:
One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.

I guess if support ended they would just release them for free. There are some online games that used to be subscription, but have gone to a "freemium" model.

You are correct... you're not paying for the rules, but I don't see it as just access. You are paying for all the updates in a convenient format (both usually-paid-for, and free rules). I buy a hard copy and it's already out of date, and you can't adjust the book without ruining it (say with pens, or stickers) or having to refer to other books or papers. This makes me really resent buying the hard copy, but I don't see as much value in getting the ePub as Id only want it for the rules/datasheets (pictures and lore, to me, are nicer in hardcopy), and it's not a very good format.
Subscription gives GW lots of benefits, such as a continuous revenue stream, knowing the numbers of players, feedback, add-on sales, buy in.
For the consumer you get spread out cost, cheaper overall, all the books, all the books updated, and still the option to buy the hard copies.

TarkinLarson wrote:
I guess if support ended they would just release them for free. There are some online games that used to be subscription, but have gone to a "freemium" model.

GW has very bad track record on that one...

tneva82 wrote:

TarkinLarson wrote:
I guess if support ended they would just release them for free. There are some online games that used to be subscription, but have gone to a "freemium" model.

GW has very bad track record on that one...

I heard about the Shadow War: Armageddon game which was virtually dropped just after it was produced, I believe. What other examples are there? How long would you expect support to continue for an edition or game? I know there a lot of specialist games they've produced which have finished... I have plenty of those, but I wouldn't expect much support to continue for Chainsaw Warrior or Block Mania

I would argue that a subscription would encourage GW to continue support... and it would be a good indicator that something was naturally dying, when there wasn't enough subscriptions to justify continuing support or it just needs a revamp.

I was thinking of something "helpful" and "evil" all in one thought: GW can sell "Update stickers"!!!!!

For a $15 you can peel and stick over those offensive obsolete entries with stylish "redacted by the inquisition" in the margins (as well as the update number).
Comes with GW approved tabs to label those often referenced pages!
They are only released as one package to update the current Codex's.
Collect them all and you will never be behind on any Codex you decide to buy!

I bet you I could get most people to buy these...

I think between electronic format, rapid production (3d printing, recasting) and maybe some sense of entitlement, the idea of some of the old ways of creating a dollar are dead.

I think that is why you see them attempting to push the IP of the Grimdark universe more, looking at stuff like films, and other ways to pull in money.

tneva82 wrote:
One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.

While I don't think that GW is suddenly going to shut down, I don't like the idea of paying for rules for armies other than the 3 I own. I also don't think a subscription is necessary, right now the .epub and iOS versions of the rules auto-update and I paid for them once. I think a simple, downloadable PDF you can print at home is sufficient.
This thread seems to have a lot of self-flagellation for GW's sake going on ("but we have to pay them more somehow cause they want it!", etc).

I'll never go digital full time, it's bad for your eyes, you have to worry about battery life, and I don't feel like traveling with an $800 tablet. To me, a book will always be superior. As to the screw up on the warlord traits, who really cares. The books get FAQ'd anyways - it's one page printed out you keep in the back. I've seen people go as far as saying "I'm selling my collection and never playing 40k again!" Get over it, they're bigger problems atm.

Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.

Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.

Don't forget Blue light. That is bad as well. Not sure if those devices have the blue filter or not or if people even use them.

Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.

And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.

 plark wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.

And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.

All true, But You also might have your kid drag your codex out side and it gets rained on and ruined, or forget your rules and such when your headed out to the tournament, or any other issues like that.

Simple reality is that both have minor risks and minor advantages.

I think to have an honest discussion, people needs to agree that while individually there are some things that work to make one better or worse, the reality is it is down to preferences at this point in the larger discussion.

Reemule wrote:

 plark wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.

And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.

All true, But You also might have your kid drag your codex out side and it gets rained on and ruined, or forget your rules and such when your headed out to the tournament, or any other issues like that.

Simple reality is that both have minor risks and minor advantages.

I think to have an honest discussion, people needs to agree that while individually there are some things that work to make one better or worse, the reality is it is down to preferences at this point in the larger discussion.

You can spank your kids, can't spank TFGs or major corporations!

I agree that this topic of digital vs print is too nuanced and divisive for GW to anything except cater equally to both audiences. I however personally feel digital editions could have easily not been added to the mix and we would have all been just fine. But I'm a jerk who doesn't approve of anything so, don't mind me.

Reemule wrote:

 plark wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.

And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.

All true, But You also might have your kid drag your codex out side and it gets rained on and ruined, or forget your rules and such when your headed out to the tournament, or any other issues like that.

Simple reality is that both have minor risks and minor advantages.

I think to have an honest discussion, people needs to agree that while individually there are some things that work to make one better or worse, the reality is it is down to preferences at this point in the larger discussion.

Very true, however I would rather my kid take my book out in the rain than my tablet . But there's pluses and minius on both

BTW not sure if this is true or not but I heard in my local GW that for those people who REALLY care, you can send your space wolves codex into GW and they'll "Staple the new warlord traits in or something"

A true Wolf would paint in on a wolf's hide and wear it at the game.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
A true Wolf would paint in on a wolf's hide and wear it at the game.

eh I live in a lefty city, PETA would make my life miserable if I tried that

Also what is the basis behind the GW taking this away? I have them all downloaded, stored on my NAS at home, uploaded onto my online cloud (drop box, and another place) and then also they are in my dump file I keep on my Jump drive I keep in the fireproof safe, and then I actually have copies on my Tablet, and my phone.

GW couldn't get them from me if it wanted to. And I'm fairly sure that between all this they will out survive me. And Waay more durable than any book ever created.

Reemule wrote:
Also what is the basis behind the GW taking this away? I have them all downloaded, stored on my NAS at home, uploaded onto my online cloud (drop box, and another place) and then also they are in my dump file I keep on my Jump drive I keep in the fireproof safe, and then I actually have copies on my Tablet, and my phone.

GW couldn't get them from me if it wanted to. And I'm fairly sure that between all this they will out survive me. And Waay more durable than any book ever created.

That claim seems pretty outlandish. A quick Google search says that the oldest surviving books date from 3000BC to 1400AD. Is your existential property going to be found by Alien colonists thousands of years from now? Anecdotal evidence time. There are three bookstores withing a 5km radius of where I live. Any one of them has a shelf of antique books you aren't allowed to touch unless you buy them. Number of antique computer software stores? Zero.

Cloud-sharing is all fine and well, but who owns the server? You or a corporation?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, there is a reason the medium has survived literally thousands of years.

 darkcloak wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Also what is the basis behind the GW taking this away? I have them all downloaded, stored on my NAS at home, uploaded onto my online cloud (drop box, and another place) and then also they are in my dump file I keep on my Jump drive I keep in the fireproof safe, and then I actually have copies on my Tablet, and my phone.

GW couldn't get them from me if it wanted to. And I'm fairly sure that between all this they will out survive me. And Waay more durable than any book ever created.

That claim seems pretty outlandish. A quick Google search says that the oldest surviving books date from 3000BC to 1400AD. Is your existential property going to be found by Alien colonists thousands of years from now? Anecdotal evidence time. There are three bookstores withing a 5km radius of where I live. Any one of them has a shelf of antique books you aren't allowed to touch unless you buy them. Number of antique computer software stores? Zero.

Cloud-sharing is all fine and well, but who owns the server? You or a corporation?

In 2K years GW's epub codex's will exist in some data storage somewhere still. Just the way computers work.

And I don't care who owns the server. I care I still have access to my data. That why I have 2 cloud sites. Not a big deal.

And there arn't antique computer stores cause they are not needed. Pretty much everything is archived somewhere if you needed to find it.

I think you have a pretty good viewpoint and it works for you, but claiming software will outlast books is just silly. I'm sure you feel confident that you will be able to enjoy your purchases over time but at the end of the day I still have a book on my shelf.

What's the price on the Mordheim book these days? $400? Will your cloud file be worth as much in ten years? No, it will be worth a few dollars at best.

I have a copy of Daggerfall on my shelf. Can't play it because I can't run msDOS on a Windows 10. Hell, I can hardly run it on my old XP! I mean, yeah I own it and I could probably keep it for years but... Is it worth anything?

 darkcloak wrote:

I have a copy of Daggerfall on my shelf. Can't play it because I can't run msDOS on a Windows 10. Hell, I can hardly run it on my old XP! I mean, yeah I own it and I could probably keep it for years but... Is it worth anything?

Get DOSbox.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:

I have a copy of Daggerfall on my shelf. Can't play it because I can't run msDOS on a Windows 10. Hell, I can hardly run it on my old XP! I mean, yeah I own it and I could probably keep it for years but... Is it worth anything?

Get DOSbox.

I do have a DOSbox on my XP! Doesn't make it any easier to run, lol! I can hardly even remember the command line to open the drive! If I really really wanted, yes I could play Daggerfall. I just don't feel like relearning DOS commands to do so. If Daggerfall was just a book though, I could go read it right now.

You know, I think I know why this topic is silly. All the ups and downs of each medium can apply equally to both. Well, aside from the ownership thing.

Books are expensive. So is digital.

Books get wrecked. So do tablets.

Books need updated. So do files.

Books are hard to transport. So too are delicate tablets.

Really I don't think we can beat this mule anymore. It's a matter of personal preference. Please, let's stop calling for digital-only releases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just in the offchance GW pulls a FFG and we all end up paying the same price for intangible assets.

I mean, does anyone trust FFG now??? Lol, maybe the diehard FlyCas types, but they were scum anyways.

 darkcloak wrote:
[

Really I don't think we can beat this mule anymore. It's a matter of personal preference. Please, let's stop calling for digital-only releases.

100% agree, except for you last point.. Digital only releases are already here... just look at the FAQ's.

Anyway, in a wierdly related topic, I'm watching a youtube video on Book Binding.. as I want a ebook release as a real book so the author can autograph it for me.

Such is life.

Wow did this thread take a left turn. Are we seriously concerned with a GW rule book being accessible in 1000 years?

A nice middle ground seems like a digital release that allows for printing. That way everyone that wants it paper and ink copy can have it for a few dollars more and everyone that likes digital is satisfied. And if/when a particular rule changes the digital copy is automatically good to go and the individual page could be reprinted for those using physical copies.

Seriously the solution for all preferences is not rocket science here. I just do not see GW giving up the extra income that physical codexes provide them any time soon.

Both methods have their strong points. Books are great for perusing, bookmarking, and can be a lot faster to flip through during a game. If I'm reading my faction's lore, I want to do it in the sweet glossy high def that only print can provide. And, in my opinion, print books help keep a game more social; electronic devices always have the potential to become a distraction.

But, PDFs are more portable, have a far more resilient binding, and, most importantly, can easily be kept up to date.

The way that GW has been rolling out updates, while great for addressing player concerns and adjusting balance issues, makes print obsolete incredibly fast - sometimes, like the SW codex, before the players even have it in their hands. I honestly think that GW should continue to produce both physical and digital books, but they should be bundled. If I shell out for a physical copy, then I should get a PDF copy as well, so I can have up-to-date rules. PDF should be cheaper, but not come with the print copy. As easy as that.

I hardly think we can count FAQs as digital releases. That would be a very thin hair to split.

And SW codex is far from obsolete. Obsolete isn't even the right word! And for that matter, GW addressed the issue as soon as it was caught and made amends. How is the Sagas fix any different than an errata? They saw a problem, and fixed it. It seems to me that we're just getting upset over nothing. So, the SW codex bungle proves nothing in the digital vs print debate.

Really the crux of the matter is that people want cheaper ways to get the rules. So instead of demanding GW stop "killing trees" how about we ask for mini-codices or PDFs (whatever your poison) that contain only the rules for the faction? That way I can still have my fancy book, and a better rule book than the starter pamphlet, and if I so choose, a pdf as well. Seems to me that more options is better than less.

Also, not claiming GW books will need referenced in 1000 years, just that books can indeed survive that long. I hardly think our current cyberspace has the backend to last that long.

Besides, techno-barbarians are supposed to arise soon and plunge the planet into chaos. Pretty sure they'll hit our internets first so we can't write a list to hard counter them.

If the rules were sold in a standalone cheap "index" alongside pdfs then that's fine. Say, once a year when chapter approved is released all changes are applied to the cheapo rulebooks and pdfs at once. So for something like $5 dollars a year you can get your paperback rules all together.

Though, as an aside, modern books do not last that long due to the acidity of the paper. They're good for a bit if taken care of (cool, not humid, not too much sunlight etc..) but they don't last nearly as long as say papyrus. Or stone for that matter So, don't expect future civilizations to find much written down about us.

Then I demand stone tablet codices!!!

And stone models that require seven years masonry experience to build!

That'll put a cap on those pesky new players for sure...

 darkcloak wrote:
I hardly think we can count FAQs as digital releases. That would be a very thin hair to split.

And SW codex is far from obsolete. Obsolete isn't even the right word! And for that matter, GW addressed the issue as soon as it was caught and made amends. How is the Sagas fix any different than an errata? They saw a problem, and fixed it. It seems to me that we're just getting upset over nothing. So, the SW codex bungle proves nothing in the digital vs print debate.

Really the crux of the matter is that people want cheaper ways to get the rules. So instead of demanding GW stop "killing trees" how about we ask for mini-codices or PDFs (whatever your poison) that contain only the rules for the faction? That way I can still have my fancy book, and a better rule book than the starter pamphlet, and if I so choose, a pdf as well. Seems to me that more options is better than less.

Also, not claiming GW books will need referenced in 1000 years, just that books can indeed survive that long. I hardly think our current cyberspace has the backend to last that long.

Besides, techno-barbarians are supposed to arise soon and plunge the planet into chaos. Pretty sure they'll hit our internets first so we can't write a list to hard counter them.

People bitch whine and moan about the rules being obselete everytime GW issues Errata, except when they don't issue Errata then they bitch whine and moan about a LACK of Errata

Yeah, see that's exactly it!

Back when telephones hung on walls and served a single purpose, there was no errata. Seems like we made it through the Dark Ages just fine.

All I know is when the Zombie apocalypse happens or Russian Hackers take down our power grid. I'll still be able to play because I have books.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All I know is when the Zombie apocalypse happens or Russian Hackers take down our power grid. I'll still be able to play because I have books.

and thats important.. I mean... when the zombies aren't actively attacking you you need SOMETHING to pass thew time

If the hackers and zombies do come then forums will be forced to attempt to gather in real life. They will hunker together in the ruins of IRL to carve the Sacred Netlists into stone, so that our ancestors might know the optimum number of Alaitoc Hemlocks to take, and that Dark Reapers Are OP.

Weirdest of all will be the Cult Of The Ham Kitten Beetle, who gather each night to chant “Pistols Do Not Work RAW” and recite the Litany Of Broken Rules and the Litany Against RAI.

In the grim darkness of the very near future there is only RAW.

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow did this thread take a left turn. Are we seriously concerned with a GW rule book being accessible in 1000 years?

A nice middle ground seems like a digital release that allows for printing. That way everyone that wants it paper and ink copy can have it for a few dollars more and everyone that likes digital is satisfied. And if/when a particular rule changes the digital copy is automatically good to go and the individual page could be reprinted for those using physical copies.

Seriously the solution for all preferences is not rocket science here. I just do not see GW giving up the extra income that physical codexes provide them any time soon.

Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

tneva82 wrote:


Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

How important are old rules to you in the first place? So I have been playing 40K since 2nd edition, and I have kept every rule book, including all of the weird odds and ends you needed in 2nd Ed to play the game. (vehicle cards, psychic power cards, vortex template, etc) But honestly there is 0 reason for my hording instinct on this, I have never gone back and read through any of it. Every once in a while I'll see it in the box I have it in up in the attic, have a brief period of nostalgia and then move on with life. The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th edition rule books I have don't even elicit that nostalgic feeling. I still have my Angels of Death codex from 2nd Edition, which I have opened up from time to time to read the old fluff but honestly GW basically stopped writing new fluff so long ago and I can read the same things in the 3rd-7th edition Dark Angels codexes. Now I understand that I am not representative of everyone and that there are likely a fair number of people that do go back and read the old books but that is why I suggested a digital version that is printable. That way if you want you can print out a hard copy to hold onto for 25 years (god I am getting old) like I have. The solution here is not an either or scenario like so many people seem to think, there is a very happy middle ground where virtually everyone gets what they want and I am really confused at the "My way or the highway" attitude that seems to be the common opinion, but then again it is Dakka, so maybe I shouldn't be...

Honestly, I just wish they sold softback codices at a considerably cheaper price.

I like physical books. I like the codex format. I like rapid changes and improvements. I'm willing to compromise and deal with some errata and not having all up to date/relevant information in the book without supplement.

That being said, I despise paying £25 for a hardback book that's supposed to look nice and it's butchered with post-its on day one - it just defeats the point of the nice hardback, and oh man I feel bad for those that bought the limited edition version whose only advantage is looking nicer when it's filled with mistakes like that.

So far, I've bought an Index and two Codexes this edition (ignoring CA, etc) and only the Index has been entirely satisfactory - Codex: Chaos Space Marines had incorrect page numbers in the contents for all it's stuff (and thus I had to marr it with an inkjet pen) and Codex: Space Wolves is going to have a manky inkjet A4 inserted into the Warlord Traits page. Both were problems before the codex was even issued - so it's not any errata/playtesting/etc. Neither of these on their own are so bad, but it's especially annoying when I know I'm paying a premium for the book to be hardback with no alternative.

I'd be an awful lot less salty if I even had the option to buy a softback for at least £5 cheaper RRP.

JohnnyHell wrote:In the grim darkness of the very near future there is only RAW.

That is signature worthy.

I originally stated I'd like a subscription based model. I think it's an option for people who like all of the rules, updated all the time and that set of updated rules is the law and everyone knows that that is the one to go for.

However, I do see the drawbacks. I think GW are milking the codex, but that is their job.

I honestly don't understand why they don't do a "if you buy the hard copy you get a free, automatically updated epub" (idea originally from Karol on another thread). That would justify the cost. The electronic copies could also have just the rules in them in a more easily organized system.Some months ago I even asked if they could do a recycle scheme, where you take back your old codex to get the new edition at a slight discount (say £5). This discount would only apply at GW. I mean I never buy from GW unless it's an exclusive... always my FLGS which is up to 20% cheaper (except paints). It'd encourage you to go back into the stores, they can recycle the books and pretend they're sustainable, and you get new rules that you might not otherwise have bought!

tneva82 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow did this thread take a left turn. Are we seriously concerned with a GW rule book being accessible in 1000 years?

A nice middle ground seems like a digital release that allows for printing. That way everyone that wants it paper and ink copy can have it for a few dollars more and everyone that likes digital is satisfied. And if/when a particular rule changes the digital copy is automatically good to go and the individual page could be reprinted for those using physical copies.

Seriously the solution for all preferences is not rocket science here. I just do not see GW giving up the extra income that physical codexes provide them any time soon.

Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

That's when you go buy the physical copy, because it will be $5 on e-bay.

 vonjankmon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

How important are old rules to you in the first place? So I have been playing 40K since 2nd edition, and I have kept every rule book, including all of the weird odds and ends you needed in 2nd Ed to play the game. (vehicle cards, psychic power cards, vortex template, etc) But honestly there is 0 reason for my hording instinct on this, I have never gone back and read through any of it. Every once in a while I'll see it in the box I have it in up in the attic, have a brief period of nostalgia and then move on with life. The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th edition rule books I have don't even elicit that nostalgic feeling. I still have my Angels of Death codex from 2nd Edition, which I have opened up from time to time to read the old fluff but honestly GW basically stopped writing new fluff so long ago and I can read the same things in the 3rd-7th edition Dark Angels codexes. Now I understand that I am not representative of everyone and that there are likely a fair number of people that do go back and read the old books but that is why I suggested a digital version that is printable. That way if you want you can print out a hard copy to hold onto for 25 years (god I am getting old) like I have. The solution here is not an either or scenario like so many people seem to think, there is a very happy middle ground where virtually everyone gets what they want and I am really confused at the "My way or the highway" attitude that seems to be the common opinion, but then again it is Dakka, so maybe I shouldn't be...

Your "middle ground" consists of ceasing to print books and giving us an option to print them off the tablets we had to buy in order to pay to access the rules?

Seems like we can just keep printing books and selling epubs... Isn't that a middle ground where everyone gets what they want?

Oh wait I forgot! Digital propenents demand we give up our books for some esoteric reason that still hasn't been really explained or even maybe thought out.

So I am going to work off the assumption that you are unaware of E-reader programs that work on computers and cell phones and that you are not being obtuse just to try and continue your argument because you are unable to admit that maybe there is an actual middle ground here.

So, there are free applications for both Andriod and iOS along with free programs for Windows that allow you to view both of the common e-reader formats.

And I am not demanding that you give up your books. It may shock you to know that I actually prefer hard copy and would be one of those people that would print out a copy of the rules in my middle ground scenario. I do have some digital rules (The Forgeworld 8th Ed rule update books) also that I use my IPad to view but it's not my preferred method. But the reality is that in the scenario I am proposing GW would likely stop producing hard cover codexes since doing so would not likely be economically viable any longer. The reason that it is currently, even though you can get digital copies of everything is that those digital copies cannot be printed and are never updated, so there's really no incentive for them like there would be under my scenario. So no one is demanding anything but I think that if digital books were made truly useful you would see the end of the hard back $40 book versions we see now.

 Brother Castor wrote:

Stux wrote:
I actually prefer the data cards to the codex for Strats. That way I can put away ones that will never come up in the game, making it easier to remember the ones I can use haha

Don't give me a reason to 'need' the cards!

Okay, so I bought the cards

If I had a tablet I still wouldn't want to take it to a store, getting it damaged or stolen would be horrible, those things are super expensive. Rather carry around an out dated hardcopy of rule book and codex, plus printed stuff. The lose something that is practicaly irreplacable.

See your point but this seems to be threadromancy on a bit of a whinge of mine.

MODS, feel free to do the necessary if you wish.

Yes, they are. And yet despite wanting to push a paper product their proofreading and editing is ridiculously subpar, and people defend it by saying they aren't a publisher so mistakes should be acceptable in what is pitched as a high-quality product.

EDIT: didn't notice the thread was necro'd. Leaving this here for posterity though.

Yeah sorry, my fault for posting on it again