So, I've been thinking about Forgeworld, GW and The Horus Heresy game. With the discontinuing of many of the legion upgrade kits, Rhino doors, Betrayel of Calth, Prospero Burns etc. Do you think they are considering an exit strategy from the game after the next book drops? Personally I hope this isn't true, but I can't stop looking at the reality of what GW is doing.
No. Ditching marines that are available in plastic is to be expected, box deals usually vanish eventually and removing doors is not the end of things. Last time they executed a game they hyped it up and made a huge campaign for it.
No. The death of Alan Bligh and the re-launch of Specialist Games have caused some re-organisation, but that's it. They've previewed release coming over the next 3-4 months, and there're rumours about what's coming after that.
There's been a slow down but, no matter how the internet screeches, it's just had a small run of bad luck between the passing of Bligh, re-organisation for Specialist Games, resources allocated into 8th Edition 40k (at least for a few months after the games release), etc.
New stuff it coming, it's just not front and centre right now.
gorgon wrote: Not dead, but not on the path it was either.
I think the real test will be what happens after Malevolence is released.
It's not dead, but it's certainly in a vegetative state. All the models that are being released have been announced a long time ago. In our local area we went from 3 stores that consistently had 30k games to 1 store where there's a 30k game once every couple of weeks. The big local event that used to draw 20+ people had 5 people show up. I'm hoping that the pulls of items and the quiet regarding when Malevolence comes out is a sign that big changes are coming, but I worry that's it's just negligence.
MK II armor is no longer available in any form, and it's one of the 3 most distinct heresy armors. I would never consider starting a HH army without this armor available. It is featured heavily in betrayal/massacre and the early heresy. mk III is nonsense as it's just an up armored version of MK II that should only see use in assaults/siege and boarding actions.
I definitely think HH is in some trouble. But I don't think it's going anywhere for a couple years at least. I hope they consider doing more heresy stuff in plastic, and ditching the 7th edition rules in favor of 8th, or an entirely new ruleset altogether.
I think it's in a hiatus that will end in its demise. Too long waiting for entries (i.e. Dorn) whilst previously unknown units have been shoehorned in, reduction in range, poor quality publications, 7th ed rules that didn't do enough to resolve some of the editions faults, lack of an affordable intro box now calth has gone, and a preference for the bigger primaris marines have all halted sales of a range that has seen a substantial drop in quality anyway. Given the position FW are in, they may well have been collapsed back into the main studio before too long anyway. I'd rather be wrong on this, but I can see it becoming just a couple more books and models (i.e. primarchs and Emperor) released as and when they are done, with no real momentum or coherency between them.
I feel like the death of Alan Bligh has left the Horus Heresy as a rudderless ship in becalmed waters without her captain.
Calth and Prospero are gone, making it costlier for new players to get into it. Inferno had...problems...with its rules, some of them still not fixed/clarified in the new FAQ. We've seen many kits get dropped, and while we can assume this is because they were redundant due to plastic versions, has Forgeworld bothered to really even confirm that themselves? They had a real opportunity to make their 7.5 edition rulebook really good by fixing problems, and possibly cherry-picking some of the best ideas from previous editions,...but they didn't. And, of course, there's the new prices...
Forgeworld really needs to come up with a plan and a roadmap, and share them with us to alleviate our fears and worries.
Some great answers from you guys. I partially agree with most of you. Especially that FW feels like a leaderless mess at the minute. Honestly, and I will probably get some flak for this, the best way to keep the game moving would be to update all the rules to 8th once the last primarchs and legions get their rules. Reason being is that I think it will broaden the playerbase, even though I know a lot of people is invested in 7th edition, but in regards to new players, I think 8th is the way to go.
HH lacks accessibility and price
All the people who play HH around here either have more money than sense, or parents footing the bill.
If I want the full rules, I gotta go buy 3 100$ books.
Why are the rules not available for cheap?
Checking right now US prices 50$ for army list books, 62$ for rulebook, 86$ for combo pack of the marine legion books. And digital versions are from 29$ to 45$.
Checking right now US prices 50$ for army list books, 62$ for rulebook, 86$ for combo pack of the marine legion books. And digital versions are from 29$ to 45$.
Even at that, it's expensive. I got the two red books which are now outdated, kinda hurts ones wallet.
For what it's worth, I was at the Horus Heresy Campaign Weekend last weekend at Warhammer World and it was absolutely packed. I definitely encountered a player or two that wished they were just playing 8th, but for the most part everyone seemed really enthusiastic to be there and playing Heresy.
I can't speak to what ForgeWorld has planned for Heresy, but I don't think it's on the way out, only taking a backseat for a little while like Middle-earth did for a long, long time. The Middle-earth people kept their game alive in the community, and I suppose we will have to also.
Checking right now US prices 50$ for army list books, 62$ for rulebook, 86$ for combo pack of the marine legion books. And digital versions are from 29$ to 45$.
Even at that, it's expensive. I got the two red books which are now outdated, kinda hurts ones wallet.
Whopping 10$ more for rulebook than codex for 40k is. Rulebook is whopping 2$ more expensive. It's not like 40k rules are cheap either. And in terms of production value FW books are generally better(and you need less to have complete game rules than 40k. How many codexes 40k has anyway? 19 + 2 coming in this year still as a minimum...That's soon 840$ to get all the 40k codexes.
(btw as far as "Calth&Prospero taken out! GW must be planning to shoot down HH completely". Well so is Imperial knights: Renegade. Does that mean GW is purging Imperial Knights from their product line? No it just means they got rid of discount box they usually do eventually. These were unusually long standing as it was. And with GW not producing all the contents on their own not surprising. Minimum orders could be rather large...)
As long as there are FW fanatics willing to buy things like Warlords, Thunderhawks and Mastodons...FW will keep kicking out more stuff for HH. However, I suspect that the future of HH will be about serving the fanatics and existing diehards...maintenance instead of growth. Their moves to cut armor types, certain Legion-specific gear, and the boxed games already point that way.
Like I said, what happens after Malevolence will be interesting. I think that some work had begun on it at the time of Mr. Bligh's passing. After they release it (after two years in development), will they really recommit resources to developing the *next* 300+ page coffee table book, given all the demands at the FW studio? They don't need to make black books to release rules for new models. They don't even need another black book to introduce Dark Angels. That could be done in a red book update.
I went on FW the have a good browse and window-shop, dreaming of the day I finally win the lottery and am able to actually buy anything... and was extremely saddened to see that there is now ONLY Raven Guard upgrade kits available (the proper ones with Legion-tailored torsos) and the MK II armour (one of the best-looking) - and I'm sure a bunch of other stuff that I can't remember - are just... gone.
Morale of a subset of them on the internet is low for whatever new reason this time, and people like to complain on the internet.
But the Heresy train is still going on: Heck FW just put a tank up for SA this week, they've regularly released models over the last few months (Scoria and Krole are good examples of that), have previewed a couple of large pieces as well as the BA specific Leviathan in recent memory (over the last month iirc). A couple of discount bundles going that are likely to be replaced/repackaged into a more normal starting box and parts that weren't selling going LCTB doesn't mean the Heresy is dying or dead. It's just currently back in the same place it was before the 2nd big plastic push.
@broodspawn it isn't just about them releasing things, it's the lack of logic behind those releases. Yes SA have had a couple of tanks recently, but right after their transfer sheet vanished, and their medicae went lctb, leaving many SA collectors uninterested in adding anything new. Yes we could potentially be seeing a wave of legion specific leviathans, but we still have primarchs outstanding, and legions that need fully developing. Dark Angels were the focus of the 6th novel in the series, and yet have little more than a head upgrade set available. How many DA, BA and WS players have lost interest in waiting, and won't be drawn back with the current pricing? Most of the bundles have gone, Calth and Prospero are gone. I doubt we'll see anymore plastic armour types, and it is new products that drive sales higher than trickles. New entry offers need to be better than 11 models for £125, and if it's plastic, FW aren't getting the money on their sales.
We've still got armies missing entry units (i.e. IW havoc's) loads of characters still to do, basic upgrades that you can only buy third party (i.e. a squads worth of combat shields) three legions to flesh out, dark mechanicum to do, Daemon Primarchs to add, and the Emperor. I really don't think that they have the momentum to do all that, or the customer relations to maintain interest and engagement whilst they try.
I want to be wrong. I want HH to thrive and do well. I want to be able to use my IWs for years to come, and to want to add more. I just don't think that the writing on the wall is in its favour.
Forge World for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread seems to be a mess in general. We're what a year and a half into 8th and not a single new IA book has been dropped and they have been purging inventory left and right. I don't think HH is dead so much as FW needs to get it's **** together.
They are already dropping hints of covering the immediate crusades that occurred after the battle of terra. They'll just roll the HH ruleset and plot forward.
*sigh*
The pretty little Carnodon tank is now available. For $106, and, yes, that's US dollars, not Australian. It's like they don't want people to buy it.
ChargerIIC wrote: They are already dropping hints of covering the immediate crusades that occurred after the battle of terra. They'll just roll the HH ruleset and plot forward.
I think they need to wrap up the present holes and campaigns before promising anything extra. Promising more than they can deliver is a big part of the current decline in interest.
Like the video says; they'd barely finished putting the Legion upgrate kits out (Space Wolves), and they haven't even done all the Primarchs yet (Lion, Sang), yet they've pulled all the Legion torsos, a bunch of armour including all the MKII stuff... I know they're theorising it's because GW will release them in plastic instead, but I don't know about that. One commenter says they rang them up and were told it was a simple matter of not enough sales/profits - well here's a suggestion then, FW; how about you don't make them so extortionately expensive to begin with, eh!? As if they didn't see this problem coming when GW started doing plastic 30K kits, two branches of one company shooting each other in the foot.
As a person who was interested in Horus Heresy...I'll add what I see and why HH may be in a rough spot with new players.
1) Immensely dislike 7th edition style rules. That's fine, I could do with the fan-made 8th edition rules...but this doesn't help.
2) Dislike Forgeworld resin. I could cope with some if the HH plastic boxes were still available for "most" of my basic infantry needs, etc. I've recently kit-bashed a Typhon and I could "stomach" some more....but this doesn't help.
3) Zero environment for it locally. However this is the US and that's just hit or miss.
4) If I was going to stomach the occasional Forgeworld resin piece...that ended with the price bump.
5) The uncertain future/direction is a huge turn off.
I like the Horus Heresy, read most of the first 20 novels, etc. Big fan, but there are so many impediments to even considering starting to play it, and I feel like I'm not alone. Hell almost my entire CSM Renegade army is Horus Heresy era vehicles, infantry, dreadnoughts, but I still don't see a comfortable, sane way to get into the game. Selling the idea to my friends is even more implausible.
"So there's this cool version of Warhammer, but it's resin only...expensive as hell...using old rules which may or may not change, expensive rulebooks, and part of the model range hasn't been done yet...sound good?" It's a tough damn sell.
Elbows wrote: Hell almost my entire CSM Renegade army is Horus Heresy era vehicles, infantry, dreadnoughts, but I still don't see a comfortable, sane way to get into the game. Selling the idea to my friends is even more implausible.
"So there's this cool version of Warhammer, but it's resin only...expensive as hell...using old rules which may or may not change, expensive rulebooks, and part of the model range hasn't been done yet...sound good?" It's a tough damn sell.
I have two armies for Horus Heresy:
1) Iron Warriors being made slowly on 4 boxes of BaC and 1 BoP.
and
2) Word Bearers made from all kind of plastics i had stored from all those years. Various bits like Chaos Marines, Dark vengeance plastics, Helbrutes, etc. I only swap bolters and helms. Lots of greenstuff. Looks quite HH to me.
Me and a friend have just made the plunge into 30k, and both got our "starter sets" of FW resin down at Warhammer world this weekend. Also had a few interesting conversations down there so im quite optimistic that 30k is going to grow.
A couple of thoughts;
- BAC and BOP reached the end of their lifecycle and all of the components can be purchased separately (no doubt the SW and TS characters will get a release). With the steady stream of box sets being released, surely this had to be expected?
- The FW last chance to buy thing seems a little over-hyped, according to the gent behind the till in the FW store; just as many lines were discontinued in previous years.... they just didn't advertise it. And looking at the way the shelves are now layed out in there it certainly seems liek theres some strategy to whats being kept and whats being discontinued.
- If you have to "sell" 30k to somebody. Then its not for them. Its a game that's deep rooted in the fluff and the gaming side seems very much secondary to the hobby side. So if you dont know who Horus is or who the legions are... why wouldn't you just play normal 40k?
- Also on the above- The cost of models.... Theres nothing stopping you playing with a force comprising entirely of 40k plastic kits with a little modification, but when the aesthetic and theme come first it is worth the extra little bit of cash to get the justearin terminators over standard, or the contemptor over the standard dread etc. or just buy recast?
The internal love affair for HH died with Alan I guess.
You can see and feel it.
Maybe where you are, but in WW there are a lot of people still playing it and they are still selling a lot.
The FW upgrades are getting purged because they take up a lot of space for what they are and they dont have enough room as it is.
The internal love affair for HH died with Alan I guess.
You can see and feel it.
Maybe where you are, but in WW there are a lot of people still playing it and they are still selling a lot.
The FW upgrades are getting purged because they take up a lot of space for what they are and they dont have enough room as it is.
Ha! Are you 'avin a laugh, mate? The site is a bloated nightmare to browse and navigate because they have duplicate product listings absolutely everywhere on practically every single page/category. It's utterly inefficient, unintuitive and a massive waste of space. If they sorted out their site and made it properly ordered and organised space wouldn't need to be an issue. Besides, they already gave their reasoning that it was poor sales/profits on the upgrade kits.
Yeah, integrating general legion options with legion specific options was a terrible decision. It felt like a clumsy attempt to increase sales, but no doubt inhibited them by having to scroll through pages of options.
Regarding sales space, whw is a warehouse, they can create whatever space they want.
So, I've been thinking about Forgeworld, GW and The Horus Heresy game. With the discontinuing of many of the legion upgrade kits, Rhino doors, Betrayel of Calth, Prospero Burns etc. Do you think they are considering an exit strategy from the game after the next book drops? Personally I hope this isn't true, but I can't stop looking at the reality of what GW is doing.
/Discuss
Forge World had all of the Specialist Games dumped on them at the same time that Alan - the heart and soul of 30k - passed away. FW is just restructuring itself in the wake of these events.
The discontinued kits were not popular and not selling well. They eat up a lot of space in the warehouse that now needs to accommodate all of the FW stuff and, now, the Specialist Game stuff. If there is demand for the kits, then they will likely return for short print runs (which is the strategy that GW has used quite successfully with their old metal/resin kits).
Prospero and Calth were always going to have finite print runs. Big box sets filled with value have always been fleeting.
The internal love affair for HH died with Alan I guess.
You can see and feel it.
Maybe where you are, but in WW there are a lot of people still playing it and they are still selling a lot.
The FW upgrades are getting purged because they take up a lot of space for what they are and they dont have enough room as it is.
Ha! Are you 'avin a laugh, mate? The site is a bloated nightmare to browse and navigate because they have duplicate product listings absolutely everywhere on practically every single page/category. It's utterly inefficient, unintuitive and a massive waste of space. If they sorted out their site and made it properly ordered and organised space wouldn't need to be an issue. Besides, they already gave their reasoning that it was poor sales/profits on the upgrade kits.
That's not what space means. They took up physical space too which is a waste if it's essentially junk.
Part of me feels that the table top is in a holding pattern until BL starts covering the actual Siege of Terra. I'm guessing GW wants those two to come out roughly at the same time.
I would have thought that the logistics reorganization seen with the Memphis Forgeworld warehouse would have explained away much of people's concerns, but apparently not.
If they're really planning on winding down 30k, why would they have invested in US FW facilities when 30k is such a big chunk of Forgeworld's offering?
Ha! Are you 'avin a laugh, mate? The site is a bloated nightmare to browse and navigate because they have duplicate product listings absolutely everywhere on practically every single page/category. It's utterly inefficient, unintuitive and a massive waste of space. If they sorted out their site and made it properly ordered and organised space wouldn't need to be an issue. Besides, they already gave their reasoning that it was poor sales/profits on the upgrade kits.
I mean storage space at forgeworld, they take up a lot of space for what they are, packs of ten shoulder pads and they are some of the cheapest things they sell as well.
I am only repeating what I have been told at WW.
jessagain wrote: I would have thought that the logistics reorganization seen with the Memphis Forgeworld warehouse would have explained away much of people's concerns, but apparently not.
If they're really planning on winding down 30k, why would they have invested in US FW facilities when 30k is such a big chunk of Forgeworld's offering?
It's important to consider that they no longer need an actively supported 30K game to sell many '30K' kits. Quite a few kits can also can be used in 40K through the FW indices.
Other kits can't, and I agree that those will be sticking around for a while, especially with Malevolence on the way. But I don't think the HH rules system drives the bus at FW now like it once did. Specialist Games considerations had to have been a very important factor in the creation of the US FW facilities.
jessagain wrote: I would have thought that the logistics reorganization seen with the Memphis Forgeworld warehouse would have explained away much of people's concerns, but apparently not.
Forgeworld didn't bother to tell us that's the reason for discontinuing many kits, that's only our (admittedly logical) assumption.
And the associated ridiculous rise in prices doesn't help matters, either.
jessagain wrote: I would have thought that the logistics reorganization seen with the Memphis Forgeworld warehouse would have explained away much of people's concerns, but apparently not.
Forgeworld didn't bother to tell us that's the reason for discontinuing many kits, that's only our (admittedly logical) assumption.
And the associated ridiculous rise in prices doesn't help matters, either.
The company doesn't give an explanation, and they don't have to, the staff are ore than happy to talk about it though if you're not aggressive and don't start every conversation with "why are GW killing 30k? i demand answers, why didnt they inform me of such business decisions?, REE, REEEE"
If a kit isn't selling, their moulds are taking space up in a production facility, the old stock is taking up space in a warehouse and on the FW shelf and their part numbers etc are adding bloat to a system/website. So its cut.
With regards to some of the 30K stuff, its interesting in the actual FW shop that each legion now has a very similar offering- shoulder pads, dread, heads, vehicle upgrades- its all very uniform.
Could it just be that they are trying to strategise what they offer for each legion so as to not leave anybody out in future?
The company doesn't give an explanation, and they don't have to, the staff are ore than happy to talk about it though if you're not aggressive and don't start every conversation with "why are GW killing 30k? i demand answers, why didnt they inform me of such business decisions?, REE, REEEE"
If a kit isn't selling, their moulds are taking space up in a production facility, the old stock is taking up space in a warehouse and on the FW shelf and their part numbers etc are adding bloat to a system/website. So its cut.
With regards to some of the 30K stuff, its interesting in the actual FW shop that each legion now has a very similar offering- shoulder pads, dread, heads, vehicle upgrades- its all very uniform.
Could it just be that they are trying to strategise what they offer for each legion so as to not leave anybody out in future?
The company doesn't have to give me an explanation, but I also don't have to buy anything from them. You would think that GW's change in approach to interacting with the community and the subsequent increase in sales would have given them a better game plan how to handle this situation. So for now they stay quiet and pretend that nothing has changed and I continue to not spend money on any on heresy products. While we speculate that some products don't sell and just take up space, we don't have any concrete information from the company to base that on. At the same time, re-casters continue to make money on those "low-sale" items and despite being small operations they somehow find room to store all these kits. My guess is that FW is so small in sales volume compared to regular GW departments that no one cares if they fail their sales goals and GW doesn't want to invest additional resources due to this negligence.
FW should just start buying recasted minis, repackage them and sell them. You get same quality quality after all from good recaster. Everyone is happy this way,lol It's not like other companys moved their operations to China, and you end up buying made in China...
Recaster is suddenly workign for FW, FW is still getting that nice big piece of cake since they are selling kits with 300-400% markup if not more, players can still buy kits they want from FW, win win for everyone!
I don't think it is dead yet, but I can see it happening. I ran with three separate groups because there are some major US cities close to me. All of those groups have abandoned the game entirely.
8th edition is just a superior rules set, allowing for much more enjoyable games. It seems in my local groups everyone has jumped to AoS or back to 40K proper.
FW better do something quick or they might lose this war...
HH remaining stuck on 7E doesn't help things, that was the worst ruleset 40k ever had, and it makes it difficult to introduce new players already familiar with 8E when they have to learn an outdated ruleset.
Losing Alan has also obviously hurt, as have a number of other already mentioned factors, and it definitely feels like peak HH fever has come and gone. It also doesn't help that they've been working on the HH project since 5E and still havent fleshed out everything.
I suspect one of two things will happen with HH. It will either be allowed to slowly wither and fall off before getting scrapped in a few years, or itll get rolled into whatever ruleset 40k is using with some likely dramatically pared down faction/legion rules and rereleased down the road, but either way I dont expect the current iteration of HH will enjoy the support it once did.
Togusa wrote: I don't think it is dead yet, but I can see it happening. I ran with three separate groups because there are some major US cities close to me. All of those groups have abandoned the game entirely.
8th edition is just a superior rules set, allowing for much more enjoyable games. It seems in my local groups everyone has jumped to AoS or back to 40K proper.
FW better do something quick or they might lose this war...
Well, I love it when you bring this argument in some HH fb groups, how people become super defensive and tell you it's more lively than ever,lol, than tell you how 7th rule set is far superior than anything else, that 8th sucks and when told that most HH forums are barely alive anymore they just tell you, well people moved to FB groups because they are superior to forums. Good thing there is that 8th edition fan made rule set out there, not official but still good.
Worst thing that can happen is HH moving right to 8th and then 40k moving to 9th,tbh they should start slowly converting it to the 9th, because 8th edition ship has sailed, and by the time they would moved it to 8th, 8th would probably be finished or just about to be finished.
Vaktathi wrote: HH remaining stuck on 7E doesn't help things, that was the worst ruleset 40k ever had, and it makes it difficult to introduce new players already familiar with 8E when they have to learn an outdated ruleset.
Losing Alan has also obviously hurt, as have a number of other already mentioned factors, and it definitely feels like peak HH fever has come and gone. It also doesn't help that they've been working on the HH project since 5E and still havent fleshed out everything.
I suspect one of two things will happen with HH. It will either be allowed to slowly wither and fall off before getting scrapped in a few years, or itll get rolled into whatever ruleset 40k is using with some likely dramatically pared down faction/legion rules and rereleased down the road, but either way I dont expect the current iteration of HH will enjoy the support it once did.
Lot better than 8th and only needs good codexes to be better as HH showed. 8th ed is unbalanced mess that has reached even worse than 7th ed was while being illogical, unfun and you can't even play game to completition without house rules.
Is HH rules perfect? No. Nothing never is. But it's better than the unbalanced illogical mess that the 8th ed is
Well, I love it when you bring this argument in some HH fb groups, how people become super defensive and tell you it's more lively than ever,lol, than tell you how 7th rule set is far superior than anything else, that 8th sucks and when told that most HH forums are barely alive anymore they just tell you, well people moved to FB groups because they are superior to forums. Good thing there is that 8th edition fan made rule set out there, not official but still good.
Indeed. People love to lie to themselves.
However just because 8th is more popular at this moment doesnt mean its such a better rules system (yes, its less bloated and on less pages). What i like about Horus Heresy at the moment is that you can actually use normal infantry and Terminators. Terminators in 8th are almost non existant and normal infantry are only used as meat shields or combined with a very strong stratagems.
Current 7th edition Horus Heresy army looks more like am actual force than 8th army and i like this very much.
Tony C and Andy H appeared on WHTV to categorically deny that 30k was on the way out. WHTV have just started a 'tale of four generals' feature with HH games and armies being played. This does not sound like GW quietly winding it down to me.
I think something big is on the way for Horus Heresy games and it's a lot closer than people realize. It's interesting, isn't it, that MkII all but vanished and the two boxed games were removed.
It's been really good to see and hear of the success of Forge World's Specialist Games dept doing so well with their ventures into plastic with the gangs for Necromunda and the Titans. I'd imagine the management were pretty pleased with those sales.
Tamwulf wrote: Always interesting reading posts by people that admit they don't play 30K or buy anything from Forge World and predict Doom and Gloom.
I still play 30k, I just don't plan to buy anything from FW beyond transfer sheets as the pricing is tone deaf and the company is uncommunicative about the direction of the game for which it sells models. I continue to play 30k because I like the people that I play with and 30k players do tend to have painted armies.
In terms of doom and gloom, in my area there used to be 3 stores that had active communities of 30k players and then also multiple events per year to bring everyone together. Now the only store that has an active community is the one I play at and the last 30k event that was supposed to be the flagship one drew 6 people beyond the organizers. The local 30k FB page went from a lot of activity to 1-2 posts per week. So GW doesn't need to have an official announcement that 30k is a wrap for the game to die. The lack of attention is suffocating the community and without an active player base, they can't bring in more people.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Tony C and Andy H appeared on WHTV to categorically deny that 30k was on the way out. WHTV have just started a 'tale of four generals' feature with HH games and armies being played. This does not sound like GW quietly winding it down to me.
I think something big is on the way for Horus Heresy games and it's a lot closer than people realize. It's interesting, isn't it, that MkII all but vanished and the two boxed games were removed.
Right, but that's after virtually no HH presence on Warhammer Community for a year.
Besides, the situation isn't binary. Of course it's not being axed tomorrow, not with Malevolence on the way. It's going to live...the questions about are how much support it's going to receive, and whether the focus will be on growing the game or instead just maintaining it for an ultraniche set of customers.
I think it takes a lot of faith to look at the past 18 months and think that HH is on the cusp of some new renaissance. But we'll see.
Tamwulf wrote: In terms of doom and gloom, in my area there used to be 3 stores that had active communities of 30k players and then also multiple events per year to bring everyone together. Now the only store that has an active community is the one I play at and the last 30k event that was supposed to be the flagship one drew 6 people beyond the organizers. The local 30k FB page went from a lot of activity to 1-2 posts per week. So GW doesn't need to have an official announcement that 30k is a wrap for the game to die. The lack of attention is suffocating the community and without an active player base, they can't bring in more people.
Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that the game is in a healthier place in the UK than the US. Adepticon HH gaming is still strong, but does that reflect healthy local communities, or players going to Adepticon so that they can get their HH on?
Vaktathi wrote: HH remaining stuck on 7E doesn't help things, that was the worst ruleset 40k ever had, and it makes it difficult to introduce new players already familiar with 8E when they have to learn an outdated ruleset.
Losing Alan has also obviously hurt, as have a number of other already mentioned factors, and it definitely feels like peak HH fever has come and gone. It also doesn't help that they've been working on the HH project since 5E and still havent fleshed out everything.
I suspect one of two things will happen with HH. It will either be allowed to slowly wither and fall off before getting scrapped in a few years, or itll get rolled into whatever ruleset 40k is using with some likely dramatically pared down faction/legion rules and rereleased down the road, but either way I dont expect the current iteration of HH will enjoy the support it once did.
Lot better than 8th and only needs good codexes to be better as HH showed. 8th ed is unbalanced mess that has reached even worse than 7th ed was while being illogical, unfun and you can't even play game to completition without house rules
8e is undoubtedly an unbalanced mess, as literally every 40k edition has been. 7E however was, by every measure, worse. Nobody played 7E without houserules, even if just for stuff like terrain setup. The game was an incomprehensible mess even without getting into codex issues. HP's, Jink, allies, formations, challenges, random rolls to tell you which random table to roll for another random effect on, Invisibility,etc, the game didn't work and there's a reason it cost GW, for the first time in a literal generation, to lose its top tabletop game spot to Xwing and drove me from playing for quite a while. The fundamental core rules were just bad, in addition to all the codex/dataslate/FW/campaign book issues. It was a dramatically messier ruleset, trying to be more RPG and skirmish-ey than 3E/4E/5E, while also including ever larger and more powerful things, and it just didn't work. The balance, while hardly great in 8E (and has emerged to be very alpha strikey) has nothing like the top end ridiculousness of 7E power lists. I wont defend 8E as being a perfect ruleset, it's not, it does stumble with many of the same things (allies & detachments in particular), and its not my favorite edition, but it's very difficult to see where 7E was better on the whole in any way.
More importantly however, staying with the 7E ruleset makes it more difficult to draw in players from normal 40k, as they now have to learn a new ruleset to play *alongside* the current edition, and that makes it harder to get people in.
Process wrote: Me and a friend have just made the plunge into 30k, and both got our "starter sets" of FW resin down at Warhammer world this weekend. Also had a few interesting conversations down there so im quite optimistic that 30k is going to grow.
A couple of thoughts;
- BAC and BOP reached the end of their lifecycle and all of the components can be purchased separately (no doubt the SW and TS characters will get a release). With the steady stream of box sets being released, surely this had to be expected?
- The FW last chance to buy thing seems a little over-hyped, according to the gent behind the till in the FW store; just as many lines were discontinued in previous years.... they just didn't advertise it. And looking at the way the shelves are now layed out in there it certainly seems liek theres some strategy to whats being kept and whats being discontinued.
- If you have to "sell" 30k to somebody. Then its not for them. Its a game that's deep rooted in the fluff and the gaming side seems very much secondary to the hobby side. So if you dont know who Horus is or who the legions are... why wouldn't you just play normal 40k?
- Also on the above- The cost of models.... Theres nothing stopping you playing with a force comprising entirely of 40k plastic kits with a little modification, but when the aesthetic and theme come first it is worth the extra little bit of cash to get the justearin terminators over standard, or the contemptor over the standard dread etc. or just buy recast?
Speaking as someone who recently left this community, I take serious disagreement with your last statement there about selling 30K to people.
The game is about min/maxing Phsophor or Mechanicus Robots.
Guard, Custodes, and Ad Mech completely destabilized the game. Those three factions are so broken rules wise that I'm not even sure it is possible for the earliest Legions to compete with them.
Vaktathi wrote: HH remaining stuck on 7E doesn't help things, that was the worst ruleset 40k ever had, and it makes it difficult to introduce new players already familiar with 8E when they have to learn an outdated ruleset.
Losing Alan has also obviously hurt, as have a number of other already mentioned factors, and it definitely feels like peak HH fever has come and gone. It also doesn't help that they've been working on the HH project since 5E and still havent fleshed out everything.
I suspect one of two things will happen with HH. It will either be allowed to slowly wither and fall off before getting scrapped in a few years, or itll get rolled into whatever ruleset 40k is using with some likely dramatically pared down faction/legion rules and rereleased down the road, but either way I dont expect the current iteration of HH will enjoy the support it once did.
Lot better than 8th and only needs good codexes to be better as HH showed. 8th ed is unbalanced mess that has reached even worse than 7th ed was while being illogical, unfun and you can't even play game to completition without house rules.
Is HH rules perfect? No. Nothing never is. But it's better than the unbalanced illogical mess that the 8th ed is
STRONGLY disagree. I almost completely quit this whole hobby tanks to 7th edition. 8th Edition has kept me immensely happy.
What do you find wrong with 8th? Care to list examples?
As i and some others said in various topics HH has to transcend into 7.5 or 8th edition to survive.
However there are some things in 7th that just work better in an environment with less amount of factions. Environment where less distinction beetwen factions has to be filled by more distinction in the core rules. Also its somewhat of a historical (kind of) game so it would benefit from a more realistic ruleset. So things like vehicle armour facings or even vehicle damage table should be in the HH rules.
Even challenge rules where 2 heroes face each other is quite cool a rule for HH.
Also as was said above its more of a codex and formations problem why 7th edition wasnt really that popular. That is why people started playing HH massively before coming of 8th because it didnt have most of those problems.
In the end i would just like HH to be saved and played by more people.
Glumy wrote: As i and some others said in various topics HH has to transcend into 7.5 or 8th edition to survive.
However there are some things in 7th that just work better in an environment with less amount of factions. Environment where less distinction beetwen factions has to be filled by more distinction in the core rules. Also its somewhat of a historical (kind of) game so it would benefit from a more realistic ruleset. So things like vehicle armour facings or even vehicle damage table should be in the HH rules.
Even challenge rules where 2 heroes face each other is quite cool a rule for HH.
Also as was said above its more of a codex and formations problem why 7th edition wasnt really that popular. That is why people started playing HH massively before coming of 8th because it didnt have most of those problems.
In the end i would just like HH to be saved and played by more people.
I hope they can fix it and that your community can enjoy it. But for me, I'll never come back to it. I played for a little over a year and all I ever got out of it was disappointment and a massive wallet assault. It's a shame because the general ascetics, are pretty nice for that game.
Togusa wrote: What do you find wrong with 8th? Care to list examples?
For me personally, I find 8th to be an overly homogenized, simplified mess that devolves into blobs of dudes clustering into aura buffs and lobbing shots across the board. That is if my opponent doesn't just field 4 knights and shoot me off the table before I have a chance to do anything. Not that anything I could do matters when facing 4 knights.
Just comparing 30k Legion rules to 8th edition chapter tactics/chaos legion traits to me is enough to justify me wanting to playing Age of Darkness over 8th.
Togusa wrote: What do you find wrong with 8th? Care to list examples?
For me personally, I find 8th to be an overly homogenized, simplified mess that devolves into blobs of dudes clustering into aura buffs and lobbing shots across the board. That is if my opponent doesn't just field 4 knights and shoot me off the table before I have a chance to do anything. Not that anything I could do matters when facing 4 knights.
As far as I know that's no different than 7E. You could totally be stuck facing a list of clustering aura buffs lobbing shots across the board, or a lance of Knights with no way to do anything, at least under the GW 7E rules (did Age of Darkness change that with respect to Knights?)
8E at least doesn't have the more insane things of 7E and they at least made up their minds on some of the detail stuff in the core rules they were trying to do too much with (even if just to dump it), the balance is whacky (as is tradition), but the spread is better than it was in the previous edition (though probably not any better than something like 4E or 5E).
Just comparing 30k Legion rules to 8th edition chapter tactics/chaos legion traits to me is enough to justify me wanting to playing Age of Darkness over 8th.
For me, if I had to pick one thing like this, the fundamental 7E vehicle rules and HP's are enough to never want to play 7E again, they're just fundamentally so poorly executed that they make playing tanks really not fun. They needed to pick one kill mechanic and do it right, and they just...couldn't
Whatever else one wants to say about 8E, vehicles are dramatically more functional, if less detailed.
Whatever else one wants to say about 8E, vehicles are dramatically more functional, if less detailed.
Have to echo this point. I actually enjoy using vehicles in 8th. In 7th vehicles felt a bit too much like glass cannons if the enemy was fielding anti-vehicle weapons.
Whatever else one wants to say about 8E, vehicles are dramatically more functional, if less detailed.
Have to echo this point. I actually enjoy using vehicles in 8th. In 7th vehicles felt a bit too much like glass cannons if the enemy was fielding anti-vehicle weapons.
I'm going to echo this as well - I enjoy playing the 'Fury of the Ancients' Rite of War, but it's tricky when everything either explodes or is immobilised turn 1.
I like that in 8th vehicles got toughness and save charcteristics.
However when it comes to oversimplification i always recall my own reaction to the Dawn of War 1st expansion - Winter Assault. It was the time when the game balance got changed drastically. Long story short from the point where all units were more or less usable in every tier form 1 to 3 you got a balance where tier above was better than below.
For example:
Vanillia DoW balance: Chaos Marines usable in all tiers
WA balance: Chaos Marines < Khorne Berzerkers < Possessed
I write this because when WA was released i really (and i mean really) prised the new balance only to get bored of it after 1 or 2 months and went to play only the mod Dawn of War Pro that wanted to bring the balance to the core of the vanillia with additional races.
DoW Dark Crusade was a little better but only because they limited the tier 3 units to 2 units max so you had to use lower tier units still.
WA streamlined the game. A lot. Perhaps too much for me.
Process wrote: Me and a friend have just made the plunge into 30k, and both got our "starter sets" of FW resin down at Warhammer world this weekend. Also had a few interesting conversations down there so im quite optimistic that 30k is going to grow.
A couple of thoughts;
- BAC and BOP reached the end of their lifecycle and all of the components can be purchased separately (no doubt the SW and TS characters will get a release). With the steady stream of box sets being released, surely this had to be expected?
- The FW last chance to buy thing seems a little over-hyped, according to the gent behind the till in the FW store; just as many lines were discontinued in previous years.... they just didn't advertise it. And looking at the way the shelves are now layed out in there it certainly seems liek theres some strategy to whats being kept and whats being discontinued.
- If you have to "sell" 30k to somebody. Then its not for them. Its a game that's deep rooted in the fluff and the gaming side seems very much secondary to the hobby side. So if you dont know who Horus is or who the legions are... why wouldn't you just play normal 40k?
- Also on the above- The cost of models.... Theres nothing stopping you playing with a force comprising entirely of 40k plastic kits with a little modification, but when the aesthetic and theme come first it is worth the extra little bit of cash to get the justearin terminators over standard, or the contemptor over the standard dread etc. or just buy recast?
Speaking as someone who recently left this community, I take serious disagreement with your last statement there about selling 30K to people.
The game is about min/maxing Phsophor or Mechanicus Robots.
Guard, Custodes, and Ad Mech completely destabilized the game. Those three factions are so broken rules wise that I'm not even sure it is possible for the earliest Legions to compete with them.
Vaktathi wrote: HH remaining stuck on 7E doesn't help things, that was the worst ruleset 40k ever had, and it makes it difficult to introduce new players already familiar with 8E when they have to learn an outdated ruleset.
Losing Alan has also obviously hurt, as have a number of other already mentioned factors, and it definitely feels like peak HH fever has come and gone. It also doesn't help that they've been working on the HH project since 5E and still havent fleshed out everything.
I suspect one of two things will happen with HH. It will either be allowed to slowly wither and fall off before getting scrapped in a few years, or itll get rolled into whatever ruleset 40k is using with some likely dramatically pared down faction/legion rules and rereleased down the road, but either way I dont expect the current iteration of HH will enjoy the support it once did.
Lot better than 8th and only needs good codexes to be better as HH showed. 8th ed is unbalanced mess that has reached even worse than 7th ed was while being illogical, unfun and you can't even play game to completition without house rules.
Is HH rules perfect? No. Nothing never is. But it's better than the unbalanced illogical mess that the 8th ed is
STRONGLY disagree. I almost completely quit this whole hobby tanks to 7th edition. 8th Edition has kept me immensely happy.
What do you find wrong with 8th? Care to list examples?
So on your first point about min- maxing phosphex bots, I am sorry your local group sucked that hard.
Yes, custodes threw stuff off but Admech is fine, I beat them on the regular with my 16th legion.
As for 8th issues. My personal beef.
-Everything feels the same
-Falling back out of CQC without even a LD check screws over CQC units, hard.
-No vehicle facings. I can fire my left gun out the back right tire! Made you think a bit more.
-Cover is a joke. Unless you have LOS blocking terrain your basically playing on an open field. I get that they wanted to "reduce arguments about cover" but what the feth kind of people actually argue about that?!
-Primaris Lore is a fething dumpster fire. Models look solid though.
7th sucked hard IMO because the codex creep was real. The base system was fine.
Nothing wrong with AdMech and nothing wrong with Guard (you mean Militia not Death Guard, right?).
Custodes were horrible, I'm hoping the nerf they just got hurt them somewhat, personally I'd have gone a lot further to limit them as they were daft on release.
-Everything feels the same
-Falling back out of CQC without even a LD check screws over CQC units, hard.
-No vehicle facings. I can fire my left gun out the back right tire! Made you think a bit more.
The issue there was that it only affected vehicles, and only when GW decided to actually class them as such (stuff like thr Riptide not being a vehicle was silly). It didn't apply to artillery, heavy weapons units, or big monster gribblies. Everyone else could shoot out of their butts just fine.
With armor facings, all it did was mean tanks autodied once something made base contact and autohit rear armor, while against shooting most vehicles had similar or identical front/side armor anyway while shots to rear armor were honestly very rare.
-Cover is a joke. Unless you have LOS blocking terrain your basically playing on an open field. I get that they wanted to "reduce arguments about cover" but what the feth kind of people actually argue about that?!
Cover and terrain is definitely a thing they borked, that said, with the humongous number of ignores cover abilities and weapons in 7E, in practical effect its mostly a wash.
-Primaris Lore is a fething dumpster fire. Models look solid though.
agreed.
7th sucked hard IMO because the codex creep was real. The base system was fine.
Hrm, vehicles, challenges, wound allocation, Jink, lots of major missions issues, terrain setup, powers like invisibility, etc were all big core rules problems, at least to me.
-Everything feels the same
-Falling back out of CQC without even a LD check screws over CQC units, hard.
-No vehicle facings. I can fire my left gun out the back right tire! Made you think a bit more.
The issue there was that it only affected vehicles, and only when GW decided to actually class them as such (stuff like thr Riptide not being a vehicle was silly). It didn't apply to artillery, heavy weapons units, or big monster gribblies. Everyone else could shoot out of their butts just fine.
With armor facings, all it did was mean tanks autodied once something made base contact and autohit rear armor, while against shooting most vehicles had similar or identical front/side armor anyway while shots to rear armor were honestly very rare.
-Cover is a joke. Unless you have LOS blocking terrain your basically playing on an open field. I get that they wanted to "reduce arguments about cover" but what the feth kind of people actually argue about that?!
Cover and terrain is definitely a thing they borked, that said, with the humongous number of ignores cover abilities and weapons in 7E, in practical effect its mostly a wash.
-Primaris Lore is a fething dumpster fire. Models look solid though.
agreed.
7th sucked hard IMO because the codex creep was real. The base system was fine.
Hrm, vehicles, challenges, wound allocation, Jink, lots of major missions issues, terrain setup, powers like invisibility, etc were all big core rules problems, at least to me.
I will defiantly give you that vehicles are a tad squishy in 7th/AOD. Either your antitank deals with them, or they don't. That said I would still take that over the 8th way of handling them.
I could see a hybrid system of More hull points, a decrease in AV but a chart much like the one 8th uses.
As for your other points, the AOD book and faq fixed pretty much all of those. Invisibility is gone (thank god), terrain set up is more fair, the missions are honestly all fine as are the varius deployment types. Challenges are a bit of an odd system but never had an issue myself and now since wounds can spill out seems to fix a lot of issues.
Just to echo a lot of other posters, I think FW’s Heresy isn’t dead, but it’s switching to ‘maintenance’ mode rather than ‘growth’. I think that over the last few years a few different things combined to really boost growth of Heresy:
1. 7ed 40k was a mess of mini codexes, floating data sheets and formations and constant changes. 7ed 30k was exactly the same game, but with less random stuff to keep track of, which was really attractive to some people (me included). This attracted a lot of older/hobby-focused/less competitive gamers and being the same ruleset makes it easy for those people to switch over.
2. BOP and BAC made it really cheap to get your core army, being better value than a lot of 40k starter sets. You could build your core from those and then spend your money on fancy FW resin centrepieces.
3. FW had kinda moved 90% of their resources into Heresy to support this, so there were lots of cool models constantly coming out. (Their original brief was to provide expansions and cool collectors models for the core GW games, but since WHFB was on its way out and Heresy was technically an expansion for 40k I doubt anyone at GWHQ cared - even when the IA books dried up!)
4. The Heresy novels were amazing, some of the best BL has ever released, and they massively helped push people into building Heresy armies.
Pretty much all of that has now gone. BAC and BaP have been discontinued. The Heresy novel series got so incredibly bloated with audiobooks and exclusive short stories and compilations it became really daunting for anyone to start reading it. And 7ed 30k can no longer be considered an expansion to 40k any more, so I wouldn’t be surprised if GW is putting pressure on FW to get back to their original remit and produce some models for AoS and ‘modern’ 40k.
Given this current situation, I can’t see Heresy growing much in the future. I see it shrinking, though a lot of that shrinkage might already have happened. While I’m sure there are enough people near each other in the UK to fill a tournament, many of the stories in this thread reference smaller or remote scenes just ceasing to exist.
For the future, I think GW could go down two routes, depending on what they want from the product.
If they want the sort of growth and sales they had previously (which then justify FW putting loads of resources into it), I think they need to update the system to 8ed and put out some sort of plastic package deal. BL are restarting the novels as a separate Siege of Terra series, so that might be a good tie-in. I think that’s the only way to get back the big selling points above.
Alternatively, they could LOTRise it - just accept that this is a niche game with a small but loyal player base and massively downscale support, while keeping the game alive. Occasional releases, the odd book, someone at FW looking over any FAQlike changes just to keep it going. About the same level of support that LOTR has had recently. Realistically, I think this is their plan, at least for the next few years.
ArbitorIan wrote: BL are restarting the novels as a separate Siege of Terra series, so that might be a good tie-in. I think that’s the only way to get back the big selling points above.
New name for the series and a fresh start is a good idea. Horus Heresy series after around book 30 (for me) just started to get overly bloated. Most of the recent books are just boring. They write books that do important story elements that could take 1/3 of the space of the book and the rest it fills with boring stuff. I lost interest with HH series around book 41 (Master of Mankind was okay). I do read the series as i want to be up to date with the story but i just cant be blind to the truth.
So a new name and fresh start. Lets just hope this new series will get to the point without stretching it too much. It would probably be okay to fill 3 books with content. I suppose they wil try to milk it by stretching it to 12. I hope they have enough material for this.
It would be nice to get some Siege of Terra boxed set with a new ruleset in a year like LOTR got.
I think, weirdly, it would be worse doing it now. If they’d just stuck to the original guns of ‘30k is an expansion to 40k and it’s gonna happen’ then I think there would have been a bit of grumbling but mostly people would have moved on. The delays and change of positions turned that whole thing into a really angry and partisan shouting match, to the level where ‘that conversation’ is banned on some Heresy groups.
Right now, there are a ton of Heresy fans who have left the game and (I think) it’s now consigned to a slow shrinkage and very few new players.
But if they switch to 8ed there are a ton of angry people who (while they probably would have been fine if the switch just happened a year ago) are now DEAD AGAINST THE TERRIBLE KIDDIEHAMMER 8ED and will all burn their models and jump up and down to prove it.
Short term solution: just stick with that group and let the game shrink into LOTR. Long term growth for the game: switch, pour resources into it, let there be a bit of angry shouting and then rake in the cash like a couple of years ago. After all, that’s exactly what happened with AOS, and it now has more players than Fantasy ever did.
I think, weirdly, it would be worse doing it now. If they’d just stuck to the original guns of ‘30k is an expansion to 40k and it’s gonna happen’ then I think there would have been a bit of grumbling, mostly people would have moved on. The delays and change of positions turned that whole thing into a really angry and partisan shouting match, to the level where ‘that conversation’ is banned on some Heresy groups.
Right now, there are a ton of Heresy fans who have left the game and (I think) it’s now consigned to a slow shrinkage and very few new players.
But if they switch to 8ed there are a ton of angry people who (while they probably would have been fine if the switch just happened a year ago) are now DEAD AGAINST THE TERRIBLE KIDDIEHAMMER 8ED and will all burn their models and jump up and down.
Short term solution: just stick with that group and let the game shrink into LOTR.
Long term growth for the game: switch, pour resources into it, let there be a bit of angry shoutingand then rake in the cash like a couple of years ago. After all, that’s exactly what happened with AOS, and it now has more players than Fantasy ever did.
That's a really going point that I had not previously considered. Some 30k players that remain and keep playing have developed an identity that's bound in the hatred of 8th edition and the importance of vehicle facings and the other "simulation" aspects of 7th.
Things vary from region to region, and group to group, but in my neck of the woods most players that kept playing would welcome a switch to 8th. We're in it for the models and playing against other people who take painting and modelling seriously, the rules are less important. Most of us play both 7th and 8th, so the transition would be smooth. The few holdouts would switch to 8th because that's what the group did and they can either learn the rules or quit the game.
While I would enjoy an 8th edition version of Horus Heresy (particularly because they could learn from the experience in 8th now --- all of the FAQs and revisions etc. would just be in the rulebook at this point instead), I don't imagine it'll go to 8th anytime soon.
Consider how slow Horus Heresy is released (book-wise). GW would need to do what they did with 40K and release indexes for all of the existing HH models. Feasible, but still a lot of work, and then people would gripe through the more boring "Indexhammer" phase of Horus Heresy. Then you'd be restarting the slow book-a-year cycle that HH seems to be stuck with, etc. GW proper would need to come in and push massive resources to ensure that didn't happen somehow. Imagine how many current HH players would hang around if 8th launched and you had to wait another 3-4 years for a proper new Black Book, etc.
If GW does put HH into 8th edition, they'd need to do it all at once, an expensive proposition at the very least. GW and Forgeworld very much built a new method of sales around the episodic nature of the Horus Heresy (matching it with novels, etc.). I don't know if HH players currently would be willing to ride that pony again, reverting to standard Space Marine rules, etc.
Elbows wrote: While I would enjoy an 8th edition version of Horus Heresy (particularly because they could learn from the experience in 8th now --- all of the FAQs and revisions etc. would just be in the rulebook at this point instead), I don't imagine it'll go to 8th anytime soon.
Consider how slow Horus Heresy is released (book-wise). GW would need to do what they did with 40K and release indexes for all of the existing HH models. Feasible, but still a lot of work, and then people would gripe through the more boring "Indexhammer" phase of Horus Heresy. Then you'd be restarting the slow book-a-year cycle that HH seems to be stuck with, etc. GW proper would need to come in and push massive resources to ensure that didn't happen somehow. Imagine how many current HH players would hang around if 8th launched and you had to wait another 3-4 years for a proper new Black Book, etc.
If GW does put HH into 8th edition, they'd need to do it all at once, an expensive proposition at the very least. GW and Forgeworld very much built a new method of sales around the episodic nature of the Horus Heresy (matching it with novels, etc.). I don't know if HH players currently would be willing to ride that pony again, reverting to standard Space Marine rules, etc.
It's not going to happen, but they could try something radically different. Instead of doing this slow development cycle, why not work with the community. There is already the community built 8th edition port for the heresy. Bring those kind souls into the fold and let them help you redesign the rules. This generates excitement in the community and basically free advertisement. This also reignites sales of miniatures that they have already produced. Never going happen, but a middle aged man can dream.
The whole coffee table book approach as the standard book is just a horribly slow development cycle. Even if they don't want to work with the community and to get things off the ground quickly they need to dump the physical book approach to codex and redbook development. Make an army builder app and make it a subscription service. This gets you a predictable month to month income that makes investors happy while your customers get a living rulebook that can push out changes and FAQs instantaneously. I get that many people want a hardbook still, but I don't have space for that stuff anymore and I think most people feel the same. It makes sense to save the hardbooks for campaigns with maps and stories to base the game around. Rulebooks should be purely digital.
The whole coffee table book approach as the standard book is just a horribly slow development cycle. Even if they don't want to work with the community and to get things off the ground quickly they need to dump the physical book approach to codex and redbook development. Make an army builder app and make it a subscription service. This gets you a predictable month to month income that makes investors happy while your customers get a living rulebook that can push out changes and FAQs instantaneously. I get that many people want a hardbook still, but I don't have space for that stuff anymore and I think most people feel the same. It makes sense to save the hardbooks for campaigns with maps and stories to base the game around. Rulebooks should be purely digital.
Ugh those subscribtion based ones are plague. Only able to play as long as you pay=joke. It's basically making players your hostages. And unlike video games here you now have physical models that would become obsolete.
No way. No company can be given authority to decide how long the game can be played.
To switch Legions to 8th, you literally need 2 books, around 100 pages each, legion special book needs a bit more considering number of legions now. Then you can have 2 more book for custodes/admech/solar/cult...not really that much job to be done tbh.
No need to release all previous black books at this point. Though by the time they decide to switch it to 8th, 9th will be out, so might as well, switch it to 9th.
bogalubov wrote:...in my neck of the woods most players that kept playing would welcome a switch to 8th. We're in it for the models and playing against other people who take painting and modelling seriously, the rules are less important. Most of us play both 7th and 8th, so the transition would be smooth. The few holdouts would switch to 8th because that's what the group did and they can either learn the rules or quit the game.
I mean, IN THEORY that's what all of the Heresy gang would do, because they're mostly there for the cool models and storytelling and the rules don't even matter, right? They're just narrative gamers, gaming for fun, right? Definitely not competitive at all. Nope.
tneva82 wrote:Ugh those subscribtion based ones are plague. Only able to play as long as you pay=joke. It's basically making players your hostages. And unlike video games here you now have physical models that would become obsolete.
I think he's just suggesting that an army-builder app be subscription-based. I agree that the basic rules should be a simple free thing, and I prefer handy reference books (or printouts) in-game to using the iPad, but running the whole game on £70 coffee-table books is just silly.
smurfORnot wrote:To switch Legions to 8th, you literally need 2 books, around 100 pages each, legion special book needs a bit more considering number of legions now. Then you can have 2 more book for custodes/admech/solar/cult...not really that much job to be done tbh.
Yup. Agreed. If they did this, the people who REALLY wanna stick with 7ed can still play it using the existing black books.
Process wrote: Me and a friend have just made the plunge into 30k, and both got our "starter sets" of FW resin down at Warhammer world this weekend. Also had a few interesting conversations down there so im quite optimistic that 30k is going to grow.
A couple of thoughts;
- BAC and BOP reached the end of their lifecycle and all of the components can be purchased separately (no doubt the SW and TS characters will get a release). With the steady stream of box sets being released, surely this had to be expected?
- The FW last chance to buy thing seems a little over-hyped, according to the gent behind the till in the FW store; just as many lines were discontinued in previous years.... they just didn't advertise it. And looking at the way the shelves are now layed out in there it certainly seems liek theres some strategy to whats being kept and whats being discontinued.
- If you have to "sell" 30k to somebody. Then its not for them. Its a game that's deep rooted in the fluff and the gaming side seems very much secondary to the hobby side. So if you dont know who Horus is or who the legions are... why wouldn't you just play normal 40k?
- Also on the above- The cost of models.... Theres nothing stopping you playing with a force comprising entirely of 40k plastic kits with a little modification, but when the aesthetic and theme come first it is worth the extra little bit of cash to get the justearin terminators over standard, or the contemptor over the standard dread etc. or just buy recast?
Speaking as someone who recently left this community, I take serious disagreement with your last statement there about selling 30K to people.
The game is about min/maxing Phsophor or Mechanicus Robots.
Guard, Custodes, and Ad Mech completely destabilized the game. Those three factions are so broken rules wise that I'm not even sure it is possible for the earliest Legions to compete with them.
Vaktathi wrote: HH remaining stuck on 7E doesn't help things, that was the worst ruleset 40k ever had, and it makes it difficult to introduce new players already familiar with 8E when they have to learn an outdated ruleset.
Losing Alan has also obviously hurt, as have a number of other already mentioned factors, and it definitely feels like peak HH fever has come and gone. It also doesn't help that they've been working on the HH project since 5E and still havent fleshed out everything.
I suspect one of two things will happen with HH. It will either be allowed to slowly wither and fall off before getting scrapped in a few years, or itll get rolled into whatever ruleset 40k is using with some likely dramatically pared down faction/legion rules and rereleased down the road, but either way I dont expect the current iteration of HH will enjoy the support it once did.
Lot better than 8th and only needs good codexes to be better as HH showed. 8th ed is unbalanced mess that has reached even worse than 7th ed was while being illogical, unfun and you can't even play game to completition without house rules.
Is HH rules perfect? No. Nothing never is. But it's better than the unbalanced illogical mess that the 8th ed is
STRONGLY disagree. I almost completely quit this whole hobby tanks to 7th edition. 8th Edition has kept me immensely happy.
What do you find wrong with 8th? Care to list examples?
So on your first point about min- maxing phosphex bots, I am sorry your local group sucked that hard.
Yes, custodes threw stuff off but Admech is fine, I beat them on the regular with my 16th legion.
As for 8th issues. My personal beef.
-Everything feels the same
-Falling back out of CQC without even a LD check screws over CQC units, hard.
-No vehicle facings. I can fire my left gun out the back right tire! Made you think a bit more.
-Cover is a joke. Unless you have LOS blocking terrain your basically playing on an open field. I get that they wanted to "reduce arguments about cover" but what the feth kind of people actually argue about that?!
-Primaris Lore is a fething dumpster fire. Models look solid though.
7th sucked hard IMO because the codex creep was real. The base system was fine.
Point 1. I dunno about everything being the same, I play Tau and I feel pretty unique compared to my other armies, and my local group.
Point 2. I play Tau. LD checks would be fine with me, but I really could care less about CC.
Point 3. THANK FETHING GOD-EMPEROR. Facings were the WORST part about tanks in 7th edition. They were the cause of almost as many arguments for me than armor facings. Good riddance!
Point 4. You can talk with your opponent, I know my local group completely house ruled terrain. It also would appear that it may be officially changing in CA18.
Point 5. Some people like the Mona Lisa, others don't. Doesn't make it a solid reason in my opinion for why something is inferior.
When it comes to 7th I nearly left this game. 8th Revitalized it for me. In the past 14 months I've played close to 200 games. But in the last two years of 7th I probably played less than 60. It felt like a chore.
About Ad Mech, no, it wasn't fine. Some of the most brutal and demoralizing defeats I faced came from that army. Everything was toughness based, everything was AP 1, everything was repairable. One of our local players was well known for having the power to break just about anything he touched rules wise, after facing his Ad Mech lists, I never played against the army again. It was a nightmare.
I think, weirdly, it would be worse doing it now. If they’d just stuck to the original guns of ‘30k is an expansion to 40k and it’s gonna happen’ then I think there would have been a bit of grumbling but mostly people would have moved on. The delays and change of positions turned that whole thing into a really angry and partisan shouting match, to the level where ‘that conversation’ is banned on some Heresy groups.
Right now, there are a ton of Heresy fans who have left the game and (I think) it’s now consigned to a slow shrinkage and very few new players.
But if they switch to 8ed there are a ton of angry people who (while they probably would have been fine if the switch just happened a year ago) are now DEAD AGAINST THE TERRIBLE KIDDIEHAMMER 8ED and will all burn their models and jump up and down to prove it.
Short term solution: just stick with that group and let the game shrink into LOTR.
Long term growth for the game: switch, pour resources into it, let there be a bit of angry shouting and then rake in the cash like a couple of years ago. After all, that’s exactly what happened with AOS, and it now has more players than Fantasy ever did.
.
One thing I probably could have lived with, without a rules change, was to see more of the line migrate to hard plastic. That would have kept me around longer. When I bought my Tau army, I spent close to 700$ on it, but my HH Ultramarine legion cost me well over 1600$.
When it comes to 7th I nearly left this game. 8th Revitalized it for me. In the past 14 months I've played close to 200 games. But in the last two years of 7th I probably played less than 60. It felt like a chore.
THIS.
I played almost exclusively Heresy for the whole of 7ed, and was in the process of changing all my armies over to Heresy where possible. Heresy events, Heresy tournaments, etc etc. Not because it was a brilliant game, but because I preferred the background and it was way less of a slog than 40k 7ed. I mean, it still felt like a chore to play compared to any other modern war game, but I preferred playing Heresy to 7ed 40k!
This past year I’ve probably already played more games of 40k 8ed than I ever had of 7ed (any version). It’s just a lot more fun.
-Cover is a joke. Unless you have LOS blocking terrain your basically playing on an open field. I get that they wanted to "reduce arguments about cover" but what the feth kind of people actually argue about that?
Just to the cover thing, two points people often forget about 8ed cover when looking from a 7ed POV:
- there’s a whole section of advanced cover rules for Cities of Death at the back. In HH8ed, we recommend everyone use them.
- terrain has become much more a Movement thing than a Saving Throw thing. Infantry get massive advantages in cover, and almost all vehicles have to go around practically everything. It’s not just ‘basically ignore it unless you roll 1’. Cover placement can really mess with the game, just because of movement rather than saving throws.
I still think a lot of it has to do with GW not wanting FW to get ahead of BL. There are only a few Primarchs left to release and they are probably going to hold them back until after the siege of terra is wrapped up in the novels.
I played several games of 8th just to try it only. I didnt play much more mostly because:
1) i dont have much time
2) i prefer HH to 40k history
3) i have pretty tough min maxing players to play with (its not a minus, it means i need best units like 40 Cultists in order to match effectively)
Ok so i was for the last 1.5 years working (slowly) on my Word Bearers. First for Betrayal at Calth game and later expanded for a big standalone army. Now theyre a fully playable Heresy army.
For the last month or so i began playing several games with some buddies who still play HH in my area. Reading through 7th edition Rulebook is quite a feat itself. I think 7th edition has some pluses over 8th but i wrote about it in other posts/topic (for example some randomness in deep striking, templates, etc can be good for players only playing for fun). Anyway i started playing 40k in 4th edition and i just adored that older version of the game. When comparing 4th edition rulebook to 7th edition rulebook the 7th edition at its base looks like bloated mess from the start. It just has too many, forgetable rules. I would say 7th codexes were the worst but edition itself could use some shrinking.
On a side note HH always seemed fun for me for things like Zone Mortalis. Now i want to try Victory is Vengeance rules with a friend.
I will say it again HH needs to go 8th to survive. I would myself prefer something like advanced 8th but ill take whatever they can give me.
My army and excitement for the game are in stasis. Frankly, I’ve following 30k news to be stressful compared to other games, and I’m finally sick of Forge World. The regional price hikes were only the last straw.
Before I go into my list of complaints, I think FW is failing to take advantage of the opportunity given to them by the low pound. Unlike GW, their costs are largely domestic. A weak local currency is a boon to exporters with minimal foreign liabilities; it’s how Japanese and then Chinese exports took off. It was not a good time to slow down their campaign book output and release rhino doors for months. The price advantage outside the UK still helped, though, and BaC/BoP (and a few podcasts) grew the game tremendously here. Not all of those buyers would go on to buy a lot of FW resin, but it was still growth. Not anymore.
The Last Chance to Buy campaign is when I started falling out of love. I use a lot of Mk II and legion torsos for my White Scars so I took it kind of personally. I was already annoyed (and some Ravenwing players are too) that we usually get depicted in Mk II yet all of the Fast Attack models are Mk IV-only, so going full-Mk II was expensive and there was never a good solution for biker arms. But the campaign kept going longer than I expected, often with items selling out before my time zone was even awake. Terrible communication, too, which we’ve gotten used to with FW just as GW has gotten better at it. On the less-bad side, they appeared to extend Mk II production to accommodate any orders sent in that week.
But it had been stressful before. The whole 7th/8th decision was a disaster. Not so much because of the outcome, at least in the short term, but because instead of telling us they were thinking about it, their customer service reps were sending out contradicting emails. Before that, we had the multibombing saga when a 40kFAQ affected 30k and FW wouldn’t comment on it. It took them nearly two years to answer ⅔ of our questions on the red books. An army that can do well despite 20-25% points penalties in a lot of events received only minor tweaks a year and a half later. And for nearly a year, the only HQ model for that army was a WHW exclusive, just like a bunch of consul types. That’s insane.
I’ve gotten much better service from games companies that have asked far less of me, and it’s time I rewarded them instead.
TBH I don’t get much of the doom and gloom in this thread. Oddly enough I’ve have actually seen some uptick in interest and gaming in my community. For a year or two I was barely able to get two or three games a year outside of going to LVO or something. The only thing that’s bothered me much is the whole pricing change up which made zero sense. But everything else is more understandable in terms of releases slowing down and the general confusion around the switch up of 40k to 8th.
I think we won’t see something like a change of 30k to the 8th ruleset at least until all of the legions get their Primarch and all that.
As for 8th vs “Age of Darkness 7th”, I think I agree with the people who have said that if 30k had just ported over to 8th immediately there would have been much less heel digging than we see now (from both 40k and 30k communities. I am a fan of 7th, prob because I didn’t have any actual 40k games just Horus Heresy. And I see some of the attraction that 8th has. But now I think that both have been split for so long, it’s created two communities with widely different experiences and outlooks, with some overlap. Most people I know who do play both systems lament the loss of some detail in the 8th ruleset but also wish that 30k was more streamlined.
I’m rambling now I think. Summation is, I don’t think everything is as bad as some people here seem to think. Heresy is not dead. 30k prob won’t go 8th for a long time (if ever).
30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.
A couple of years ago, Horus Heresy was the sole focus of Forge World. Now, it's having to share resources, logistics and release slots with all the Specialist Games. Of course that's going to have an impact.
Personally, I played because I liked the setting, and despite the rules. Vehicles? too fragile, but not particularly awful. However, the thing that really ripped my knitting was wound allocation - apparently one model could somehow intercept all the fire from a huge mob of rapid-firing space marines; is he leaping about like Yoda to do that? Artificer Armour was a stupid idea in 1999, it's still stupid in 2018. I've played one game of HH since 8th edition 40k came out, and it was fun - but only because of the fact I was playing against a friend, and we both had painted armies on a decent-looking board; actually using the rules was a slog.
I feel like a lot of the stuff that clogs up HH at the moment - Legion special rules, the Ritges of War and whatnot - could be easily done as different Detachments or Stratagems. The Communications officer, for example, is a shoe-in for providing additional CP; a better representation of the role than just having a big gun.
This is the problem. Whenever people talk about Horus Heresy a bunch of people stick their heads out of the sand long enough to proclaim everything is fine and then stick them right back in. 7th Edition is probably one of the most hated editions in 40k's history and HH does not benefit from clinging to it. It's makes an already difficult hobby entry process neigh-impossible for anyone but the most dedicated and income heavy of players - a niche it can now fight with Adeptus Titanicus players over.
If HH doesn't keep up it's going to end like Star Fleet Battles - 40 guys wielding 300 page rulebooks and 20 pages of house rules attached consoling themselves that balance isn't that big of a deal after all.
ChargerIIC wrote: This is the problem. Whenever people talk about Horus Heresy a bunch of people stick their heads out of the sand long enough to proclaim everything is fine and then stick them right back in. 7th Edition is probably one of the most hated editions in 40k's history and HH does not benefit from clinging to it. It's makes an already difficult hobby entry process neigh-impossible for anyone but the most dedicated and income heavy of players - a niche it can now fight with Adeptus Titanicus players over.
Don't be so hard on AT. You can (or at least will be able to within two weeks) get a very solid (~1700 points) AT Axiom Maniple for about $300 retail -- Warlord, two Reavers, two Warhounds. All the terminals and such that you need to field that come in the basic rules pack. And 15%+ discounts are obviously available from retailers.
HH has a much more challenging price point, especially with the discounted boxed games going away.
CragHack wrote: 30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.
Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.
Oh my god, we have to THINK before moving or shooting ! What a boring game..
Phosphex and custodian spam is not due to 7th ed, but because of their own rules
30k has always been expensive, and it never killed it. It became temporarily cheaper, now it is back to normal.
godardc wrote: Oh my god, we have to THINK before moving or shooting ! What a boring game..
Phosphex and custodian spam is not due to 7th ed, but because of their own rules
30k has always been expensive, and it never killed it. It became temporarily cheaper, now it is back to normal.
I don't object to thinking and planning. I object to the the massive amount of argumets it causes, just like with templates when dealing with players who want to try and rules lawyer their way into a win, which I've noticed happens a massive amount in the 30K community. They're definitely WAAC types by in large.
godardc wrote: Oh my god, we have to ARGUE before moving or shooting ! What a boring game..
Phosphex and custodian spam is not due to 7th ed, but because of their own rules
30k has always been expensive, and it never killed it. It became temporarily cheaper, now it is back to normal.
Fixed.
HH had a temporary upsurge in popularity because the shared base ruleset made it at least a little easier to get into the game. That's gone and I think GW can keep it in maintenance mode for the rest of it's life - which is apparently what the playerbase wants.
That's not true: how many players played WFB and 40k ? How many play AOS and 40k ? How many play Infinity and 40k ? Etc...
Not sharing the same rules has never stopped people to play different games.
godardc wrote: That's not true: how many players played WFB and 40k ? How many play AOS and 40k ? How many play Infinity and 40k ? Etc...
Not sharing the same rules has never stopped people to play different games.
No but it effect popularity and in the end longevity.
As i said while 7th might be okay but actually finishing reading the rulebook is feat in itself. It is not a benefit.
godardc wrote: That's not true: how many players played WFB and 40k ? How many play AOS and 40k ? How many play Infinity and 40k ? Etc...
Not sharing the same rules has never stopped people to play different games.
It's about entry points. You want to get started in Warmachine? You buy a starter box and show up to league night. You have the dice, rulebook, cards, and enough models for a quick game. X-Wing requires a starter kit and maybe 2-3 models to get rolling. 40k requires the battle primer, about 500 points of models (a starter kit and a couple boxes) and some dice. If you pay for the big starter box (Dark Imperium) you can show up on league night and be good to go. It's hefty but not bad.
Without jumping-off games, HH has a really high bar. You need $300-ish dollars worth of models, a $60 rulebook, and $15 worth of templates. In 40k 7th edition you could drastically reduce this by bringing your tactical marines, your knowledge of 7th edition rules, and the dice/templates you already owned. Mentally it was a simple jump, and financially you could build up easily.
Now lets assume you are a new (eight edition) 40k player. You have no mental connection point for the 7th ed style rules. You are far less likely to have tactical marines and you're gonna need that 60$ rulebook.
Hell, let's check. I'm a new eighth edition player and those are my exact reasons for not wanting to get into HH. You seem to be an experienced HH player, did you play HH or 40k first?
ChargerIIC wrote: HH had a temporary upsurge in popularity because the shared base ruleset made it at least a little easier to get into the game. That's gone and I think GW can keep it in maintenance mode for the rest of it's life - which is apparently what the playerbase wants.
And maybe they're right...at least for what HH is and what they need it to be going forward. Even sticking with 7th, FW seems to struggle to support HH. To be fair, it's a small team. Hitching the HH wagon permanently to 40K -- with 40K's frequent edition changes and 30K's beautiful but insane coffee table books -- is probably more than they could ever handle.
What's more, FW has Specialist Games now...they don't need HH to be the big dog and pay all the bills. And SGs come with *real* deadlines instead of FW deadlines. AND let's not forget that many of the HH models can be marketed for 40K through the indices. They don't need HH rules to sell them.
So maybe it makes perfect business sense to avoid the ratrace that comes with keeping the game 'current', and focus on supporting the niche group(s) of collectors, disgruntled 7th edition fans, and diehards who'll stick with you forever so long as nothing changes. That crowd will keep buying the primarch$ and Mastadon$ and Warlord Titan$. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're rolling out new tanks even as they cut basic items aimed more at beginning players. You can see the plan there if you connect a few dots.
Stinks for those of us who love the setting and models, but want a more modern-feeling game and a growing player base, of course. In the meantime, we have a great fan project. And down the road it's possible that the AoD ruleset evolves and adapts the best elements of 8th/9th/whatever.
40k first !
But still, I had to buy the two red rules books before jumping to AoD (I don't remember, I think it was 64€ for the two). I understand what you mean, indeed, but 30k is a long way to go, you don't come and buy an army, it is not 40k. You spend time acquiring new models, painting them etc... it is really the luxury product of GW, and I think people forgot it because of BaC, and thought it was going full 40k in scale. I don't know if it would have been better that way, I definitely NEED more players in my areas, but I am pretty confident that with all the new specialist games, the infortunate death of Alan Blight (rest in peace, Alan) and the impulse 8th ed (I want to be clear: I like 8th) gave 40k, it was not the time for 30k. 2019 or 2020 will see a renew of it.
It is not just an other game or an expansion, it's almost a different take on the Hobby I guess
CragHack wrote: 30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.
Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.
Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations
CragHack wrote: 30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.
Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.
Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations
If you play with bad people, they will be bad players whatever the rules are, indeed. My friends were good people in 7th, they are still in 8th, and I won't play in 8th against the people I avoided in 7th.
The most important rule is, well, the most important. Just roll a die !
I don't object to thinking and planning. I object to the the massive amount of argumets it causes, just like with templates when dealing with players who want to try and rules lawyer their way into a win, which I've noticed happens a massive amount in the 30K community. They're definitely WAAC types by in large.
Not definitely WAAC types at all, its all anecdotal, I dont play 40k now because all the 40k players I have met since I came back top the hobby are all WAAC types, when I do play I play 30k or BB because all the people I meet there that play those games are in it for the fluff and the enjoyment of the game, see what I did there ?
CragHack wrote: 30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.
Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.
Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations
Neither did I. But if you ever played in a 7th edition tournament, you should be familiar with all the sleazy ways people attempted to abuse templates, the scatter dice, armor facing, weapon arcs.
I am SO happy that is all gone, left in the past. My games since have been 100% better!
I don't object to thinking and planning. I object to the the massive amount of argumets it causes, just like with templates when dealing with players who want to try and rules lawyer their way into a win, which I've noticed happens a massive amount in the 30K community. They're definitely WAAC types by in large.
Not definitely WAAC types at all, its all anecdotal, I dont play 40k now because all the 40k players I have met since I came back top the hobby are all WAAC types, when I do play I play 30k or BB because all the people I meet there that play those games are in it for the fluff and the enjoyment of the game, see what I did there ?
Still doesn't change my experience with the group of players I've encountered. And the rules are a different story too. I went back and tried to play HH after having spent about 4 months immersed in 40K. I couldn't do it. It was almost physically painful for me to mess with that clunky rules set, having to juggle dozens of keywords for my Ultramarine units, remembering warlord traits, chapter traits, RoW abilities, individual model abilities, all with no decent data sheets to make quick use of. I mean hell there were rules I never even use, such as "challenges" because I never remembered they even existed. It was a pain to have to carry around both red books, the basic 7th edition rule book, templates, all in addition to the massive amount of resin you need to effectively play the game. No thank you.
As I have said numerous times, HH is dead to me, permanently. They had a chance to go back and fix this, but they haven't, and the time has passed, I sold everything and reinvested elsewhere. I hope those who do like the game continue to get enjoyment out of it. But given what I have personally seen, the game is drying up fast. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, three separate groups in my local area, a total of about 35 people sold their stuff and bailed last August. That isn't a non-trivial thing to have happen, and I have heard similar stories from across the US. That's huge, especially given how small the community is as a whole. For those few people in my area that didn't sell out of the game, they constantly complain about never being able to find even a friendly game. It will only be a matter of time until they just up an bail as well.
There hasn't even been a book or model release that I am aware of in over a year, correct? Book 8 was supposed to be out last christmas, but as far as I know, it's still in the wind with no solid date.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean think of it another way, this is what I think is the biggest issue with the game.
I have two friends; Peter and Jennifer. Peter and Jennifer both like board-gaming and Science Fiction, so I've brought them down to my local gaming store in Tucson, "Anna's Awesome Comics and Games"
Rashid is a local gamer who has a great looking Iron Warriors Legion, he's spent months assembling, painting and basing and testing out different RoW lists. He's quite proud of his investment, but there aren't very many people who play and that makes it hard for him to get in lots of games in the area.
Rashid then rationally wants to try and get Jennifer and Peter to join him in the HH game.
I, as a person advocating for 8th edition can go over to the store wall, and show them a wealth of miniature kits, codexes, dice and other materials related to 40K.
Rashid only can pull out his phone and show them pictures of models from a website. Anna can't order those models to sell to Jenn and Peter. There is no potential discount for Jenn and Peter. They cannot look at the rule books in the store, unless they're able to get with Rashid or another player and look at their books.
Do you see where I am going with this? Because honestly I think given time I could let everything else go, except for this issue right here.
And this doesn't even make the case for the fact that you can buy a Primaris army for around 1100$ at 3K points, vs. a HH Legion at 3K points for close to 1700$. That is assuming you're trying to mirror units as closely as possible and keeping the number of items bought also as close as possible.
So why blame the system, when it's the douchebags who are to be blamed? :O Nevermind, I just read your previous post. Let's just end it here, with you having your opinion and me having mine
CragHack wrote: 30k does not need to be streamlined, it’s fine. The reasons we started playing 30k here, was not only because we love the setting, but we see the whole ruleset as vastly superior to the mortal wound shitstorm 8th is.
Give me mortal wounds any day over hour long arguments over where the stupid plastic plates actually landed, phosphex spam, custodian nonsense, and me having to spend 20 minutes making sure my tank is triggonmetrically perfect so as to not waste a chance to shoot.
Well, it's your problem that you can't play by 'the most important rule', then. Never had to argue on where the blast has landed, or make some over complicated trigonometrical calculations
Neither did I. But if you ever played in a 7th edition tournament, you should be familiar with all the sleazy ways people attempted to abuse templates, the scatter dice, armor facing, weapon arcs.
I am SO happy that is all gone, left in the past. My games since have been 100% better!
Holy hell, the amount of hacks commenting that have never played an actual game of 30k is staggering.
Here's a basic fact;
7th 30k is not 7th 40k!
7th was always a good edition, but it was the crap 40k formations and terrible codex after terrible codex that ruined 7th for 40k. 30k did a great job of utilizing said rules to make a great game. Of course it has issues too, but those issues are isolated and are easily curbed by the community. 4 don't have an underpinning trash foundation that 7th 40k did.
Custodes a problem, take a 25% point tax as is advocated by most of the global heresy community. Problem solved. Do you know how many times Iv had an issue with someone when it comes to phospex placement or template shenanigans?
Literally never. 30k for whatever reason just doesn't have the same amount of toxic dbags that 40k does. Maybe because the player base is older because of the higher buy in price of the game, or maybe because its more of a narrative game, but for whatever reason the community is simply better, friendlier, and fairer.
The funniest thing to me is how 8th ed advocates are so entitled. With what happened and is happening its clear that 7th ed, or in this case AoD 1st ed clearly has a market out there for it.
As does 8th, but 8th ed has a game already, 40k. Why do you feel so entitled that you should have two games?
At the end of the day its a business and its all about making money, and leaving an entire segment of the market out to dry by switching to 8th is poor business.
The market needs for 8th are being filled with *gasp* 40k, and if someone wants that they would be playing 40k.
But there are also people out there who want to play AoD 30k.
You know why?
Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.
Because they like the lack of toxicity that is rampant in 40k. Because they like narrative gaming and they like to look across the table and see fully painted armies and not a sea of grey plastic.
Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.
Strategy in a game where it can take just one lucky 6 to blow a tank...all strategy can go out of the window with a bit of luck tbh.
Even simple deck builder like star realms that you can to someone in few minutes has strategy to it.
At the end of the day its a business and its all about making money, and leaving an entire segment of the market out to dry by switching to 8th is poor business.
So 8th is doing so badly that they are not making money? 30k is in worse shape now that it was before, you really can't claim that it's being more popular than when both 30k and 40k had same rule system. As many have stated, and what can be seen from a lot of online communities, it's becoming niche product. So not sure what your claim is, leaving 30k in 7th will bring them more money than switching it to 8th? I fail to see that...Do you think it would faired equally well if they used 6th edition system when 40k was in 7th? I don't see it in any way.
The funniest thing to me is how 8th ed advocates are so entitled. With what happened and is happening its clear that 7th ed, or in this case AoD 1st ed clearly has a market out there for it.
As does 8th, but 8th ed has a game already, 40k. Why do you feel so entitled that you should have two games?
Why would you be entitled to have it in 7th and others would not be entitled to have it in 8th?
If it switched to 8th, what would stop you to continue to play it in 7th?
Custodes a problem, take a 25% point tax as is advocated by most of the global heresy community.
So making unbalanced army is not a problem? Not sure why anyone claims any army is OP in 40k, when all you need to do is just hit someone with penalty on point and everything is balanced...
Because its a better game.
Says you. Some people will not agree with you. So their opinion is wrong, because you think it's a better game,lol great argument
While 8th might be oversimplified half of the 7th rules could go entirely to the trash bin. There are some tiny but important rules you dont even remember about or if you do you dont know where to search for them in this big rulebook. It slows the game down.
AveImperator wrote: Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.
What is this supposed to mean? Because if you're saying miniature wargames are by their nature more strategic than board games, it's simply nonsense.
AveImperator wrote: Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.
What is this supposed to mean? Because if you're saying miniature wargames are by their nature more strategic than board games, it's simply nonsense.
Tbh. a lot of boardgames are more complicated and strategic than 40k/30k, which are essentially dice chuckers with a lot of luck involved, and where basically you can already loose before game begins if you have bad list. Guy clearly has little experience with actual boardgames...
7ed, 6ed, 5ed 40k were derided for YEARS by other, newer war games for essentially not requiring any strategy. It’s point-and-click ‘identify the biggest threat’ and that it. Compared to something like Infinity or even freakin Frostgrave they have very little in the way of in-game options to counter the enemy beyond picking a list with the right tools, and letting the army play itself.
This has been a common criticism of 40k for years, and it’s moslty true because all those newer games took advantage of newer game design ideas (often taken from the recent resurgence of good tactical board games), whereas 7ed was stuck with a 15 year old ruleset and a load of clunky patches (superheavies, flyers, D weapons, Thunderblitz, Challenges, Look Out Sir, Instant Death).
8ed feels more like a board game because there is an actual GAME in there. You can make cunning plays on the table just by positioning, before you get into weapons and armour and abilities. 7ed by comparison feels like simulation with reference charts.
I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.
AveImperator wrote: Holy hell, the amount of hacks commenting that have never played an actual game of 30k is staggering.
Let's all take a deep breath and take a step back from hyperbole. We're all here talking about 30k because we played or continue to play the game and thus have opinions on the direction of the game. Our opinions are very different, so that's why we are discussing/arguing about it.
At the end of the day its a business and its all about making money, and leaving an entire segment of the market out to dry by switching to 8th is poor business.
If we're talking about selling models, you need an active player base that is bringing in new players to the game to sell the most models. Every area is different, so my experience only applies to my area, but from 2015-2017 the 30k community in my area grew quickly. We had multiple narrative campaigns, an active FB group and a lot of excitement around 30k. I got into the game because I realized that I already knew the rules from playing 7th edition and had accrued enough mechanicus models that I could field an army. Then when 8th hit and 30k stayed with 7th edition the player base in my area vanished. There would have probably been some attrition either way, but now because the rules are different I can't convince anyone that kept a space marine army to play in a campaign and rebuild excitement to draw in new players. Before it was an easy sell "Hey, you already know the rules, just get a few more units and you can play with fully painted armies in a more relaxed atmosphere." Now you have to convince someone to learn a whole new system, and that's a barrier that few people want to cross. By continuing to cater to people who want to keep things the same, FW is limiting its customer base and the prospects of those customers buying models. As a grognard, I already have multiple 30k armies, I don't need to buy anything else. Maybe if they make a new unit I'll consider it, but otherwise I need nothing. A new player on the other hand needs everything and will spend more money. So don't see how staying in the AoD ruleset is a good financial decision.
Because some people like having some STRATEGY in their strategy wargames, something that 8th cant provide because its a tape measure away from being a damn board game.
One of my chief complaints about 7th is that after you set up the board and your armies the game just plays itself. Your options to influence the game and make decisions are limited. You're there to just roll dice, push the models forward and to chant prayers to make sure that the machine spirit of the ruleset are appeased. In 8th edition you have a lot of options to influence the game, your decisions on every turn matter and you can take characters that improve your army's performance and not just taking the cheapest centurion so you have more points for lascannons.
I can’t picture Forge World’s Horus Heresy team being able to write 8th ed. rules for its armies in anything close to a timely fashion. Not during the time period we’re talking about.
HH sticking to 7th will die a slow and painful death (mainly due to the increased difficulty and cost to start it - particularly from 8th edition 40K players of which there is a gigantic new influx). But switching to 8th might be too resource intensive for a small thing like Forgeworld to do.
HH sticking to 7th will die a slow and painful death (mainly due to the increased difficulty and cost to start it - particularly from 8th edition 40K players of which there is a gigantic new influx). But switching to 8th might be too resource intensive for a small thing like Forgeworld to do.
I don't see a genuine solution.
I agree. I think it's feasible that the AoD ruleset could change in its next iteration (who knows when) to include some 8th edition concepts. That's probably the best we can hope for, however.
The part that stinks for everyone -- no matter which ruleset you prefer -- is that the series will probably never be finished as it was intended. Malevolence is liable to get pushed to 2019, making it two full years between black book releases. At this pace, we're looking at many years before getting to the Siege and doing that justice. I think the official line had been 15-20 black books? Even if they trim that by a whole bunch of books, when can we realistically expect book 9? How about 10 or 11?
I think it’ll be okay moving forward (albeit without the fans they’ve alienated already). Malevolence will be out in early 2019, and the FW team will have found a new rhythm without Alan Bligh and with the reality of having to share resources with Specialist Games. No excuses for failing to get Angelus out in early 2020. Follow that up with final versions of the red books.
Then they can take their time to come up with a new edition.
An edition switch before three legions, Daemons, and the Dark Mechanicum got their rules would have been annoying for fans of those armies. The Horus Heresy team and FW in general was in flux in 2017. They didn’t seem to have much prior knowledge of 8th edition. They had no hope of being able to keep up with GW’s promise of regular FAQs and changes to the rules (so I hope 30k’s rules remain independent of 40k’s, even if they become 8th-like). And I think there’ll be less motivation to use 30k armies in 40k as 40k grows in scale and starts dropping old-fashioned Astartes.
godardc wrote: I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.
This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.
That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.
This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.
That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.
Before 8th yes. After 8th release practically most (if not all) of these people went to 8th edition and/or other games. For the last year the majority that stayed are those that actually care about narrative.
Just my opinion here, but I like the basics of the AoD ruleset (40k 3rd - 7th ed), although it suffers from some bloat from so many years/editions. I was in favor of simplifying it, but 8th kind of took a wrong turn for me.
Making morale just another form of durability, eliminating the impact of facing, eliminating the fun and flavor of putting down the flamer template, etc. These take away some of the feel of a war game for me, personally. The addition of CPs and the cards had potential, but for me, they don’t add the type of strategy I’m looking for. If I wanted to win with card selection and combos, I would play a CCG. I would rather the most important decisions be around positioning, maneuvering, and planning.
But more to the point, HH is clearly in a lull. My brother and I are loving our campaign, but I can tell there’s not much interest in the wider community these days. But that’s ok. We love the setting, the story and the models and for us, that’s what our games are all about.
I'm going to chime in and say that 8th ed is a superior rules set to 7th and 7.5.
With the limits on legion lists baked into the game, most forces could be pretty balanced, and with Zone Mortalis and Centurion game types this has been supported.
However FW seems to lack some key personnel at the moment, as some have gone to the specialist team and the 'show runner' for HH sadly passed away.
Specialist Games are maintaining an enviable release schedule, launching one of the old games and supporting material per year and producing excellent plastic kits at a pace FW doesn't seem to be able to reproduce.
I'd love to see HH folded into Specialist or the main 40k studio, with some more plastic releases and a new set of 8th compatible books.
I can see why FW didn't convert to 8th, and it isn't because of a love of 7th but rather a lack of manpower to do new 8th compatible books and playtest them.
GW is going with the times and has learned a thing or two with recent edition of how things should be done. For example listening more to the community.
Now its only natural to learn to work with your fandom. There are some video game companies that work with their modding community. Converting to 8th edition can be done faster than we can think but only if GW/FW make such a step.
P.S. I personally dont believe it GW will do such a thing but it would be certainly a surprise.
I think the issue with FW is somewhat down to some of the people involved and internal politics. I'd love to see FW rules taken over by the main studio, or a better staffed design team, but it doesn't seem likely currently.
I don't see HH being able to survive as its standalone product if they don't support it better than they currently do. I'll keep on working on my Emperor's Children, but probably play them more locally as an 8th edition army(CSM or SM). I see a few HH players do the same and as someone mentioned earlier it is because the 7th edition ruleset is really clunky and unfriendly. It's a bit like going from the newest edition of Dungeons and Dragons to the first edition of AD&D. It just has a lot of baggage you don't need anymore and random crap that isn't doing anyone any favors.
godardc wrote: I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.
This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.
That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.
That's a shame. There's not a lot of casual 30K play in my area, as most of the players are scattered around the country with conflicting schedules, but there's two events a year being run with a heavy narrative focus, list vetting to match the beardy players against the beardy, and players are generally encouraged to bring fun, varied lists rather than optimised filth fests.
godardc wrote: I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.
In 7th ed I could play 2k game with orks in 2h. In 8th it takes 3h. 8th ed is slowest edition I have ever played in 40k yet.
8th being slow seems in my experience to be an inherent problem with horde armies. All of my games have been quicker in 8th unless I am fighting against a horde such as Orks, IG, or Tyranids. I think one of the reasons for that is that the split-fire rule allows people to spend a lot of time agonizing how best to utilize all their firepower.
I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.
godardc wrote: I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.
This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.
That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.
That's a shame. There's not a lot of casual 30K play in my area, as most of the players are scattered around the country with conflicting schedules, but there's two events a year being run with a heavy narrative focus, list vetting to match the beardy players against the beardy, and players are generally encouraged to bring fun, varied lists rather than optimised filth fests.
Around here they cannot get any traction. What little remains of our local groups were trying to organize a narrative day. They spent months on it, planning and advertising. It was supposed to happen yesterday, but it was cancelled at the last minute due to low enrollment. Only three people signed up.
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Fajita Fan wrote: I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.
That is the second part of the problem when compared to barrier to entry. Buying two of the big plastic boxes got you nothing. You need things like Leviathans, Spartans, Sicarians and the very expensive characters. Just compare the price of FW Rowboat to the 40K one. I believe it's nearly a 50$ difference. So I just bought the 40K one and used it instead.
Fajita Fan wrote: I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.
I think you are right that it is a labor of love. Another problem is that due to high price of entry a lot of people who want to get into 30k sadly end up buying recasts which I fear might deter FW from expanding upon their existing lines.
Fajita Fan wrote: I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.
I think you are right that it is a labor of love. Another problem is that due to high price of entry a lot of people who want to get into 30k sadly end up buying recasts which I fear might deter FW from expanding upon their existing lines.
Recasting is hugely popular for FW in general. I've heard that you can often get the bigger HH tanks and LoW models for pennies on the dollar, though they often require more work due to defects and the like.
One thing I secretly hope for is that with the success GW is having, it might be possible in the future to switch FW to a hard plastic based business just like their parent company now is. If that would happen, I bet some of these issues would dry up over night.
Recasting is hugely popular for FW in general. I've heard that you can often get the bigger HH tanks and LoW models for pennies on the dollar, though they often require more work due to defects and the like.
That's the hilarious part, decent recasters are significantly cheaper and their quality is the same or better. There are certainly dirt cheap recasts that are worse quality that FW, but plenty that are as good. FW is just terrible at pricing their items to sell. Going into the summer I thought they should drop prices by 1/3 and at that point I would buy directly from them. Instead they jacked up the prices by 1/3 in the US. Now I'm even less motivated to buy from them. The new Solar Auxilia aurox transport is 25 points in the game and you'll be losing 2-4 a turn easily, yet it costs 90 dollars. It's basically a rhino, yet costs 2.25 of a plastic rhino and 1.33 of a deimos rhino. Someone must have been doing drugs when deciding on a price for that model.
Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
godardc wrote: I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.
In 7th ed I could play 2k game with orks in 2h. In 8th it takes 3h. 8th ed is slowest edition I have ever played in 40k yet.
...how? 8E has its issues, but speed, especially relative to 7E is not one of them. Almost everything in 8E is faster. Stuff dies faster, there's fewer random tables to roll on and charts to consult, stuff arrives from reserves faster, movement apeeds are higher, there's usually fewer units and models on the board (in 5E-7E I could easily make a Guard army with 12-15 vehicles and 65-100 infantry, that's not possible in 8E), etc.
godardc wrote:Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
Well, there's not much choice if one wants certain models, lots of FW's catalog just doesn't exist anymore, and, more to the point, some simply produce a superior product.
Vaktathi wrote: ..how? 8E has its issues, but speed, especially relative to 7E is not one of them. Almost everything in 8E is faster. Stuff dies faster, there's fewer random tables to roll on and charts to consult, stuff arrives from reserves faster, movement apeeds are higher, there's usually fewer units and models on the board (in 5E-7E I could easily make a Guard army with 12-15 vehicles and 65-100 infantry, that's not possible in 8E), etc.
I agree that the base game system is much much faster, but there are a few things that currently slow the game down - the biggest being that everything is new! Everyone in 7ed knew the stats of all the basic troops and weapons by heart - they hadn’t changed since 3ed. Even a year in, I still need to check a load of stuff just in case I’m wrong. This gets even worse with things like Stratgems. The slowest 8ed game I’ve played was against a guard player who took AGES, every phase, to check through his 30 stratagem cards to see what he could use. Plus, some units got split 8nto lots of smaller units (usually command squads), and more units means more playtime. Some of these might get better as people get used to the rules, of course,
godardc wrote:Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
Yeah, but quotes likes that don’t actually solve anything. The base issue is that FW price their models so incredibly high, yet produce a game that requires so many, that it’s possible for an entire black market industry to thrive on producing copies that are, in some cases, better quality than the origInals. That’s insane.
godardc wrote: Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
LOL A lot of people who buy from recasters, simply would never buy anything from FW...why? Well, it's damn too expensive...70quid for like 10 marines, oh yea baby, cheap as chips...you can get Infinity miniatures which are superior in quality and metal for less $$$. Not to mention that in a lot of cases, final FW product is quite warped or even bad quality.
People who just wanna play game and enjoy hobby which otherwise would be too expensive for them are really parasites, yes...no comment. If FW didn't turn off customers with unrealistic prices, probably less people would buy from recasters.
On the other hand, when someone offers you great quality for 25-30% of the original price, ofcourse bunch of people are gonna jump on that train...
But apparently FW are don't really care too much, they managed to alianate they own customers recently, because rising prices in the best interest of it's customers, you know...for their own good and they will actually profit for paying more somehow.
People who have money buy from FW, people who don't have it or suddenly don't want to support their business any more for what ever reason, they will find alternative buy routes, more affordable.
In 7th ed I could play 2k game with orks in 2h. In 8th it takes 3h. 8th ed is slowest edition I have ever played in 40k yet.
Not sure you are playing same game as others, since 8th is probably faster than any other edition so far. It's kinda hard to streamline gameplay, yet somehow make game last longer in process,lol. One guy claims 8th is almost boardgame how simple it is, now you claim it's taking longer for some reason,lol...
just banal example, unit of 10 flamers, before, place each template individually, maybe even argue how much models are underneath it, count it. Now, just roll 10 dices for how much hits there are,slower somehow?
Before shoot enemy tank, but wait, is this side or front armor, let's check, hmm, lets chechk if you other weapon can actually see the tank etc. now, part of your tank sees enemy tank, roll to hit...
But apparently FW are don't really care too much, they managed to alianate they own customers recently, because rising prices in the best interest of it's customers, you know...for their own good and they will actually profit for paying more somehow.
People who have money buy from FW, people who don't have it or suddenly don't want to support their business any more for what ever reason, they will find alternative buy routes, more affordable.
As a side note, FW is in no way responsible for the selling of or pricing of it's items, that's sales and marketing. FW is a creative studio. Games Workshop brought the 30% hike down on the FW stuff because some bright spark in that dept suddenly woke up and noticed FW sales shooting up after the collapse of the pound following the brexit vote. It's been scheduled since that time.
Cost aside I’m not buying FW resin because I don’t miss superglue and plastic is so much easier to work with. Any of the stuff I do for my IW army will be done with plastic marines and plastic conversions. I’ll be using regular Rhinos and LRs and simply convert what I can to look 30kish.
Eldarsif wrote: 8th being slow seems in my experience to be an inherent problem with horde armies. All of my games have been quicker in 8th unless I am fighting against a horde such as Orks, IG, or Tyranids. I think one of the reasons for that is that the split-fire rule allows people to spend a lot of time agonizing how best to utilize all their firepower.
I've noticed the same thing, however, usually slow games for me have been because my opponent doesn't know their faction rules well. Most of the games I've played have been from set up to the handshake, about 1.7 hours.
Vaktathi wrote: ..how? 8E has its issues, but speed, especially relative to 7E is not one of them. Almost everything in 8E is faster. Stuff dies faster, there's fewer random tables to roll on and charts to consult, stuff arrives from reserves faster, movement apeeds are higher, there's usually fewer units and models on the board (in 5E-7E I could easily make a Guard army with 12-15 vehicles and 65-100 infantry, that's not possible in 8E), etc.
I agree that the base game system is much much faster, but there are a few things that currently slow the game down - the biggest being that everything is new! Everyone in 7ed knew the stats of all the basic troops and weapons by heart - they hadn’t changed since 3ed. Even a year in, I still need to check a load of stuff just in case I’m wrong. This gets even worse with things like Stratgems. The slowest 8ed game I’ve played was against a guard player who took AGES, every phase, to check through his 30 stratagem cards to see what he could use. Plus, some units got split 8nto lots of smaller units (usually command squads), and more units means more playtime. Some of these might get better as people get used to the rules, of course,
godardc wrote:Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
Yeah, but quotes likes that don’t actually solve anything. The base issue is that FW price their models so incredibly high, yet produce a game that requires so many, that it’s possible for an entire black market industry to thrive on producing copies that are, in some cases, better quality than the origInals. That’s insane.
The average points for HH is supposed to be about 2500-3000. It requires a lot more, although, you can theme your army to cut down on the model count. Bringing LoW also seem to be popular in the community as well, which can be big point sinks.
The two things I've found that slow 8th down a bit is people taking forever in spending CP and measuring auras from characters and then everything and their mother rerolling everything. Your throwing a lot more dice in 8th and between modifiers up the ying yang and the twin linked change that slows the game a bit.
Fajita Fan wrote: I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.
I think you are right that it is a labor of love. Another problem is that due to high price of entry a lot of people who want to get into 30k sadly end up buying recasts which I fear might deter FW from expanding upon their existing lines.
Recasting is hugely popular for FW in general. I've heard that you can often get the bigger HH tanks and LoW models for pennies on the dollar, though they often require more work due to defects and the like.
One thing I secretly hope for is that with the success GW is having, it might be possible in the future to switch FW to a hard plastic based business just like their parent company now is. If that would happen, I bet some of these issues would dry up over night.
The reason recasting for FW is so popular is because of the odd pricing structure GW has imposed on FW. FW has always been the expensive exclusive big toy off shoot of GW. They started with alternate tank turrets because Tony C and Phil S where/are huge tread heads.... but well they just kept on making bigger and bigger stuff because it sold.... why did it sell because they used the 'real' exchange rate and for the most part you could get FW cheaper then proper GW plastic stuff in a lot of parts in the world ( I live in Canada and for a long while it was cheaper to get resin marines/ resin rhino's then the plastic GW stuff)
Now because of the Odd pricing structure GW has imposed ( and I'm not just talking about the recent price hike) there is a demand for the product for whatever reason but people don't want to pay the price so they find the cheapest alternative which usually involves china or russia. I have both UKFW and ChinaCast and for the most part they are pretty much the same quality ( some odd clean up because it's resin), same customer service ( I had a badly cast Warhound and they offered to send me a replacement one or give me a full refund while keeping the model or give me store credit, I took the credit) the only real difference is the price.
I have zero sympathy for GW/FW, the Kirby years killed most of my motivation to play 40k but for some damn reason I still love the 30k and old 40k universe. So as they actually screwed me out a job I have no sympathy for them when I buy stuff from china or russia. I have a Mechanicum army and it's a blast to assemble and paint. Do I really plan on playing it.... not really I have a group of friends that we play HH AoD 7th very infrequently but other then that this is a modeling project for me.
I haven't seen a huge turn around in GW's attitude or business practices so I still choose not to support them as much as I can. Malibu Stacy just got a new hat, everything under the hat is still the same old gak.
FW will NEVER move to a fully plastic model line as it's WAY to expensive to start up. Resin is the perfect medium for high detail low volume models. Plus I think GW's plastic still isn't that great. It's getting better I will admit that but I really dislike the monopose plastic single character clam packs.
Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.
I can't answer for Togusa, but the reason why I want HH to move to 8th edition is to get more support for it. I have a group of like minded HH players that I game with so rules abuse is not an issue. Most of us want it to move to 8th because 7th is clunky and I personally think 8th would give a better representation of the legions and their variety. Additionally my group generally thinks that moving to 8th would bring more players into the game and that means more support from GW in terms of new models and campaigns. It was a lot easier to convince people to participate in HH games when 40k and 30k shared the new rules set. Now it's just our core group of players and if anyone moves it's going to be tough to add new members.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.
I can't answer for Togusa, but the reason why I want HH to move to 8th edition is to get more support for it. I have a group of like minded HH players that I game with so rules abuse is not an issue. Most of us want it to move to 8th because 7th is clunky and I personally think 8th would give a better representation of the legions and their variety. Additionally my group generally thinks that moving to 8th would bring more players into the game and that means more support from GW in terms of new models and campaigns. It was a lot easier to convince people to participate in HH games when 40k and 30k shared the new rules set. Now it's just our core group of players and if anyone moves it's going to be tough to add new members.
Same in my area...people didn't have problem playing 7th, but not that everyone plays 8th, they really don't wanan go back to 7th and play different ruleset. Not to mention that it was way easier, wanna play 40k vs 30k army before, no problem, might not be best balance, but you could still do it, now there is simply no way for it. If there were no thsoe fan made 8th rules, no one would play HH any more in my area. Kinda makes it hard pill for new player to swallow, well, you can buy this expensive army that you 'can't use' in 40k, and that only very small ammount of people plays, and if they decide to stop, tough luck, since now you can't use your expensive army in 40k...and as it is now, with how everyting slowed really down, and stuff is being discounted from FW, no one can guarantee you really how whole story ends...
You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.
Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.
I don't think it's that. I think older Marines still have a place, and I think HH is where it was before BaC and BoP, obscure with small releases.
What is needs is another adrenaline shot, maybe a Start collecting HH....
The Riddle of Steel wrote: You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.
Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.
They are correct scale for regular marines though at least with custodians. Head shorter than custodians=perfect. Primaris are about custodian size so if GW were to do 30k primaris sized marines they would need to upscale custodians as well.
Issue is normal humans being too big. With 30k this is actually less of issue as there's not much of those so they could take the chance to properly rescale the humans. Don't think they are likely to upscale all the custodians in a hurry being brand new plastics and all.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.
I can't answer for Togusa, but the reason why I want HH to move to 8th edition is to get more support for it. I have a group of like minded HH players that I game with so rules abuse is not an issue. Most of us want it to move to 8th because 7th is clunky and I personally think 8th would give a better representation of the legions and their variety. Additionally my group generally thinks that moving to 8th would bring more players into the game and that means more support from GW in terms of new models and campaigns. It was a lot easier to convince people to participate in HH games when 40k and 30k shared the new rules set. Now it's just our core group of players and if anyone moves it's going to be tough to add new members.
Same in my area...people didn't have problem playing 7th, but not that everyone plays 8th, they really don't wanan go back to 7th and play different ruleset. Not to mention that it was way easier, wanna play 40k vs 30k army before, no problem, might not be best balance, but you could still do it, now there is simply no way for it. If there were no thsoe fan made 8th rules, no one would play HH any more in my area. Kinda makes it hard pill for new player to swallow, well, you can buy this expensive army that you 'can't use' in 40k, and that only very small ammount of people plays, and if they decide to stop, tough luck, since now you can't use your expensive army in 40k...and as it is now, with how everyting slowed really down, and stuff is being discounted from FW, no one can guarantee you really how whole story ends...
The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.
If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."
The Riddle of Steel wrote: You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.
Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.
My entire HH group here in New England give zero feths about scale I can tell you that.
The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.
If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."
So the argument here is that anyone who wants 8ed Heresy isn’t a REAL Heresy fan anyway?
The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.
If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."
So the argument here is that anyone who wants 8ed Heresy isn’t a REAL Heresy fan anyway?
Yeah, I knew that fallacy was going to get brought up..
No, but if you look at a large swathe of players who jumped onto 30k because of 40k's state, it was always going to be a temporary pitstop. They wanted to play 40k, but could no longer excuse it's issues, however 30k - at least for the massive majority who collect Space Marines - was the next best thing. Now 40k is no longer in the total state that it was with 7th's nonsense, so those people have packed up and gone back to their main domain. They might still have Legion forces, but they can't use them against other 40k armies, at least without a fan version anyway.
30k won't suddenly explode back to popularity if it moved over to 8th. What we'd see is a lot of 40k players using their Legion armies against 8th edition 40k armies. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's probably not quite what people envision when they said 'rekindle 30k'.
The Riddle of Steel wrote: You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.
Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.
My entire HH group here in New England give zero feths about scale I can tell you that.
I am totally fine with the current scale of marines as are most Horus Heresy players. Primaris are even more out of whack with vehicles than the regular marines so I am in no hurry to go to super-28mm or whatever scale they are in. My point is that Games Workshop is slowly moving all of their models to gigantic sizes over the last few years. Just look at the scale from the starter set:
The poxwalker is at least as tall as the marine, maybe taller. The new plague marine is taller and much bulkier overall. The Primaris marine next to the normal marine just looks ridiculous. I don't really see how anyone could use both models side by side in an army with a straight face.
But the point is that if GW is slowly moving all power-armored marines to a larger scale, I find it very unlikely that they will continue to make any new models of space marines in the old outdated scale for 40k. This makes it tricky to do much with Horus Heresy since they maybe count on a good deal of Forge World model sales going to 40k players who want unique models/armies. If 40k jumps totally to huge marines, then you can expect a lot less love for normal scaled marines in the future as GW will eventually want to phase them out and slowly replace them with Primaris. It's just that it will take many years to re-do the entire line so they had to come up with a story reason why the two versions can exist side by side in the intervening years. This also gives players plenty of time to accept the gradual change and eventually shift their collections over to the new scale.
I love the current Horus Heresy models and I don't plan to abandon my army building with this game anytime soon. I just doubt that GW will give the game much love in the form of new power armored models going forward. But I would love to be proven wrong!
HH has totally died both where I used to live and where I moved recently. A couple years ago, we had a decent sized group of 8-10 people that got together pretty regularly to play HH. Once 40k moved to 8th and HH stayed in 7th, most of us ebayed our HH armies or repurposed them for 40k. I play AoS, KT, and 40k. Keeping track of which 40k rules apply to HH and which are only for 8th 40k is not something I have any interest in. It also shows me that FW and GW have a complete disconnect when it comes to rules. It seems like they told FW a week before the book went to print that 8th was coming out, and they're already too understaffed to do anything about it. The best thing that happened when Kirby stepped down was a focus on cleaning up the rules. HH is still being played under the policy of "we make and sell models, that just happen to have some rules in case a tiny minority of our customers want to play games with them once in awhile". I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset (which was a clusterf@#$ anyway) to play 30k. It's also impossible to get a community going when they can't buy the core rulebook, red books, black books, or any of the models without ordering from FW. The 30% price hike they just did made me even happier that I got out of 30k. I can either buy a nice watch or rebuild my 30k army, which I wouldn't even be able to find a game with because everyone else has quit. It might still have a following in the UK but in the southeastern US 30k is as good as dead.
Toofast wrote: I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset
You play 40k, AoS and KT, but you don't want to play 30k because it has a different ruleset ? That doesn't have any sens, does it ? Help me understand that
Why did you sell your armies when 40k moved to 8th ?
No, but if you look at a large swathe of players who jumped onto 30k because of 40k's state, it was always going to be a temporary pitstop. They wanted to play 40k, but could no longer excuse it's issues, however 30k - at least for the massive majority who collect Space Marines - was the next best thing. Now 40k is no longer in the total state that it was with 7th's nonsense, so those people have packed up and gone back to their main domain. They might still have Legion forces, but they can't use them against other 40k armies, at least without a fan version anyway.
I certainly think those people exist, but I think a lot of people didn’t need to ‘pick’ or ‘switch’ because they played both. In fact, that was one of the main selling points.
I played 40k and 30k at the end of 6th and start of 7th. As 7th carried on I just stopped playing 40k so much, because it was a bit of a shitshow. The game is the same, the background is brilliant, and enough people were playing it locally (all of whom also owned 40k armies) that there was a community to play with. Once 8ed came out, a lot of people WAY preferred the game, and liked the fact that they could play 40k again. But nobody wants to have to switch between the two, as once you’re used to 8ed, 7ed seems like a headache.
If Heresy switched to 8ed, I think we’d all still be playing it. The argument that, because those people still like 40k, they somehow aren’t as big a fan of the Heresy, or that people wouldn’t ‘switch’ back is missing the point - a huge part of the Heresy fan base are people who enjoy 30k AND 40k settings, and would happily play in both. But right now, they’re not playing 7ed any more.
I know its only circumstantial, but I have been dealing with a lot of HH collectors since I have been selling bits and I often get into conversation with some of them, from what I can gather most of the chaps I speak to, don't even play the game and they are just modellers building and collecting armies.
I wonder how many HH sales on the whole actually go to people that never play ? I could imagine that a concept such as the HH based on novels, attracts more of these people than usual.
Toofast wrote: I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset
You play 40k, AoS and KT, but you don't want to play 30k because it has a different ruleset ? That doesn't have any sens, does it ? Help me understand that
Why did you sell your armies when 40k moved to 8th ?
I am only going to keep track of so many rulesets at once. If I can play 40k and 30k using the same rules, like I did all through 7th, that's fine. If 30k has a completely different ruleset, and I also happen to find it vastly inferior to the other rulesets I play, I would rather just quit than force myself to remember a ruleset that I don't enjoy. I sold my 30k armies when I found out it was being kept in 7th because 7th is my least favorite ruleset in the history of 40k, and I've been playing since 3rd. All of my friends felt the same way. I don't even know anyone that plays 30k any more. We figured the game would slowly bleed out when it was left in 7th and wanted to get some decent cash for our FW stuff that couldn't be used in 40k. I'm glad we did because checking ebay right now, legit FW stuff in bags sells for MUCH cheaper than it used to. I can buy death shroud terminators new in bag on ebay cheaper than I can buy their 40k counterparts for example. The game seems to have completely died, at least in this part of the country. If 7th was a better ruleset than 8th, I would've stuck with 30k to keep playing 7th. However, I can't really think of anything I liked better last edition.
Toofast wrote: I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset
You play 40k, AoS and KT, but you don't want to play 30k because it has a different ruleset ? That doesn't have any sens, does it ? Help me understand that
Why did you sell your armies when 40k moved to 8th ?
I am only going to keep track of so many rulesets at once. If I can play 40k and 30k using the same rules, like I did all through 7th, that's fine. If 30k has a completely different ruleset, and I also happen to find it vastly inferior to the other rulesets I play, I would rather just quit than force myself to remember a ruleset that I don't enjoy. I sold my 30k armies when I found out it was being kept in 7th because 7th is my least favorite ruleset in the history of 40k, and I've been playing since 3rd. All of my friends felt the same way. I don't even know anyone that plays 30k any more. We figured the game would slowly bleed out when it was left in 7th and wanted to get some decent cash for our FW stuff that couldn't be used in 40k. I'm glad we did because checking ebay right now, legit FW stuff in bags sells for MUCH cheaper than it used to. I can buy death shroud terminators new in bag on ebay cheaper than I can buy their 40k counterparts for example. The game seems to have completely died, at least in this part of the country. If 7th was a better ruleset than 8th, I would've stuck with 30k to keep playing 7th. However, I can't really think of anything I liked better last edition.
Personally I haven’t taken to 8th and nor has my club in general. My issue with 8th was that it is a totally new system and it is not enjoyable to spend ages flicking for the war scrolls when in 7th most of its to memory. It probably is faster once you memorise the war scrolls but if you have a lot of armies and big collection that is a big hinderence. Also I had only just bought the Genestealer Cults book and thought it was outrageous that they did the Indexes and then went on to release new codex. One of the main things that got me playing games was picking up the new codes as I kept all my armies to date. I stopped doing that with 8th because they are updating these things annually and it’s a waste of money. There are a lot of those books which I simply never got to use.
Which is why I don’t want FW to go to 8th. Those books are enormously expensive and they only just updated the core rule book and all the legion books. Why should I ever buy a black book or even a red book if on a whim they are going to keep invalidating them? I currently have two of the black books as well as both red books. So you’re advocating me losing a few hundred pounds and being asked to cough up for new ones.
I don’t play the game for the rules. Of my immediate friends, they are purely interested in the Heresy and have little to no interest in 40k or AoS.
As evidenced in this thread there is no simple answer to this question beyond 'The future is whatever FW (Or GW as parent company) decide it is'
I know that's not massively helpful, but i suspect that similar discussions to this have, and still are, happening at FW/GW too.
There seems, at least anecdotally from this one topic, to be several distinct groups in the camp, including (but not limited to) people who collect but don't play, people who want to be able to play games where the local 8th Ed 40k scene hasn't developed, people who want to play games but the local 30k scene has dried up, people who don't like 8th/feel it has enough 'depth', people who don't like 7th/AoDv1.
All this really shows it that the 'community' is divided on the subject.
I was lucky enough to be at the last HH weekender in February, and was in the 'AoD Forum' session with Neil and Anuj (2 of the HH Games Developers) where this question was effectively asked, and they did a quick 'hands in the air' poll. There were about around 40 people in the room, and i was one of two people who put their hands up when they asked a question along the lines of 'Who would be happy if we moved to 8th?' (Originally they asked something like 'who wants to stay with 7th?' but that was a sea of arms and didn't prove anything!)
This might make it seem overwhelmingly like people want to stay 7th, but the other person to raise his hand wanted to move to 8th because his club had moved to 8th and he couldn't get a game, where as I said that ultimately, I wasn't bothered what the rule set was, i just wanted the chance to play fun games with awesome models in a cool setting (Yeah, i know how cheesey that sounds ) but it got a lot of nods around the room (including Neil and Anuj) Either way, Neil and Anuj, did state they intended to release BA, DA, WS, Daemons and Dark Mech in 7th so that it was all out in the same rule set. They also mentioned that they don't feel that the rules changes invalidate the Black Books, because they are background/setting books first and foremost. Owning all 7, and having read the background, when i knew I'd never get an army for over half of them, and the unit rules being updated, has never bothered me, because the background story/setting contained within is so rich.
Personally, i'd welcome the change to 8th. I have groups of gaming friends locally, and one plays AoS and the other 8th. I don't play enough games (1-2 a month) to recall all the rules for both those yet, and on the rare occasion that I do play a game of AoD in 7th, there is little chance (my opponents normally tell me not to take models off from my Custodes units because i forget about the wound allocation rules!) of me remembering those rules and i feel like i might be impacting my opponents enjoyment of the game. The ability to only play in 2 rules sets would be welcomed! And might mean i get my Vylka Fenryka built and painted! (not to mention, Titanicus I've picked up, because who doesn't want to play with big stompy .
Sorry its so long - and everyone who made it end, thank you for bearing with me!
Deathwatch101 wrote: Sorry its so long - and everyone who made it end, thank you for bearing with me!
We're not here to offer complete and nuanced answers, we're here to shout that we're right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just joking. That is probably the most comprehensive answer. Many of us disagree about what the best way forward is and we're at the mercy of GW/FW to make that decision.
Honestly I feel as though 28mm heroic scale Horus Heresy won't re-surge, it will kind of be there in the background getting a book every few years until it dies.
Part of me thinks Titanicus is a precursor to EPIC 30k. A new scale, new books, new models a whole new line for 30k.
primalexile wrote: Honestly I feel as though 28mm heroic scale Horus Heresy won't re-surge, it will kind of be there in the background getting a book every few years until it dies.
Part of me thinks Titanicus is a precursor to EPIC 30k. A new scale, new books, new models a whole new line for 30k.
Perhaps. Maybe they don't want to compete with their own products and 30k is kinda running on 40Ks turf despite using a different edition.
Personally I'd just like some openness from Forgeworld about the entire thing. What they want to do and where they're aiming.
I was lucky enough to be at the last HH weekender in February, and was in the 'AoD Forum' session with Neil and Anuj (2 of the HH Games Developers) where this question was effectively asked, and they did a quick 'hands in the air' poll. There were about around 40 people in the room, and i was one of two people who put their hands up when they asked a question along the lines of 'Who would be happy if we moved to 8th?' (Originally they asked something like 'who wants to stay with 7th?' but that was a sea of arms and didn't prove anything!)
I can believe its like going to a (for example) radical leftist party and ask who agrees the taxes for the richest people should be around 90%. Or going to a radical right wing party and ask about the race purity in the nation.
However neither party is going to win an election because in order to do it you have to win the center voters.
Same with this situation and HH. If HH stays in 7th its never going to expand and bring in new players in a reasonable way. It is doomed to a slow death.
I think 'die' is the wrong kind of language, though. As long as people are still playing it, the game is still 'alive'. As long as models and books are still available, the game is still 'supported'. And I don't see any reason why it can't be alive and supported for a long time according to those definitions. Some 30K kits would probably stay available even in the event of 30K's 'death', since those kits can be used in 40K now.
Will it be a shrinking HH community? Of course. It looks to me like focusing on a smaller pool of their best customers is the entire business plan, to be honest. But you know, maybe that's the best way to keep the thing sustainable for those customers. *shrug*
Eldarsif wrote:
Perhaps. Maybe they don't want to compete with their own products and 30k is kinda running on 40Ks turf despite using a different edition.
Personally I'd just like some openness from Forgeworld about the entire thing. What they want to do and where they're aiming.
That’s difficult when they’re a subsidiary organisation and probably don’t really know themselves, and when the amount of resources they can command is dependent on the parent company decisions, AND when changing your mind pisses off the fan base even more.
At one point it was definitely going to 8ed ‘eventually’. Then Alan died and GW piled a fair amount more things onto the FW studio (which is a totally reasonable thing to do given their actual remit) and even if FW hired more people, there will be a lag to get things going. So then the official position changes to ‘stick with 7ed’ and the rule book is rushed out and that’s the official FW line at the moment. But if they have a few more years of lower growth or sales, that might change again. And that could be the decision of any number of people, not just the FWHH team.
Glumy wrote:I can believe its like going to a (for example) radical leftist party and ask who agrees the taxes for the richest people should be around 90%. Or going to a radical right wing party and ask about the race purity in the nation.
However neither party is going to win an election because in order to do it you have to win the center voters.
Same with this situation and HH. If HH stays in 7th its never going to expand and bring in new players in a reasonable way. It is doomed to a slow death.
Agreed, and I can’t believe Tony and Anuj don’t know that. Answering the question that way is just a way of reinforcing that they couldn’t give a gak about all the Heresy fans who prefer 8ed, or don’t have huge communities to play against. ‘Yup, the people who HAVEN’T left the system are fine with it so there can’t be a problem’.
Well... Maybe they could introduce a simplified 7th. Cut the rulebook to 1/3 or at least 1/2 of the original. You can throw away more complicated and uneeded stuff (for example like charging first model to first model or losing models from the front, etc). If possible perhaps leave cool stuff like Challenges.
Also bring in some kind or CP and rerolls.
Making the edition more simple, easier to learn and dont make all older rules completely thrashed.
godardc wrote: Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.
The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.
If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."
So the argument here is that anyone who wants 8ed Heresy isn’t a REAL Heresy fan anyway?
godardc wrote: Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.
You mean calling people who buy from recasters 'parasites' are going to be driven to the arms of recasters? Weren't they there already? That's not much of a threat.
I don't know if people remember but several small miniature companies were killed almost outright by recasters in that whole 'wait? We can buy things on the internet?' craze of the 90s. There's a reason game companies have to be both the source of the rules *and* the source of the miniatures, the small casting companies are all gone. I'm not certain calling them out does much good - if they were going to feel guilty about the amorality of their decision they wouldn't have done it in the first place. We always have players like this, complaining about authentic miniature prices, lying about the source of their miniatures, being absolutely boggled when the game company they spent hundreds of dollars on didn't survive. It's just part of gaming life in the modern era - like the kid who colors the golden border of his magic cards or the person who loudly demands that FAQs be written to their specifications instead of the greater community.
godardc wrote: Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.
You mean calling people who buy from recasters 'parasites' are going to be driven to the arms of recasters? Weren't they there already? That's not much of a threat.
I don't know if people remember but several small miniature companies were killed almost outright by recasters in that whole 'wait? We can buy things on the internet?' craze of the 90s. There's a reason game companies have to be both the source of the rules *and* the source of the miniatures, the small casting companies are all gone. I'm not certain calling them out does much good - if they were going to feel guilty about the amorality of their decision they wouldn't have done it in the first place. We always have players like this, complaining about authentic miniature prices, lying about the source of their miniatures, being absolutely boggled when the game company they spent hundreds of dollars on didn't survive. It's just part of gaming life in the modern era - like the kid who colors the golden border of his magic cards or the person who loudly demands that FAQs be written to their specifications instead of the greater community.
30k Would not have half the players it does if not for recast.
Do not get me wrong, its piracy through and through. But hey, FW miniatures are insanely overpriced and with the recent increases for no reason even more so. When we got plastic Heresy I bought three boxes of each because it was a good deal.
GW is the only company I have every bought recast for simply due to the price barrier. Without recast I would not have been able to get into 30k.
godardc wrote: Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.
And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.
You mean calling people who buy from recasters 'parasites' are going to be driven to the arms of recasters? Weren't they there already? That's not much of a threat.
I don't know if people remember but several small miniature companies were killed almost outright by recasters in that whole 'wait? We can buy things on the internet?' craze of the 90s. There's a reason game companies have to be both the source of the rules *and* the source of the miniatures, the small casting companies are all gone. I'm not certain calling them out does much good - if they were going to feel guilty about the amorality of their decision they wouldn't have done it in the first place. We always have players like this, complaining about authentic miniature prices, lying about the source of their miniatures, being absolutely boggled when the game company they spent hundreds of dollars on didn't survive. It's just part of gaming life in the modern era - like the kid who colors the golden border of his magic cards or the person who loudly demands that FAQs be written to their specifications instead of the greater community.
30k Would not have half the players it does if not for recast.
Do not get me wrong, its piracy through and through. But hey, FW miniatures are insanely overpriced and with the recent increases for no reason even more so. When we got plastic Heresy I bought three boxes of each because it was a good deal.
GW is the only company I have every bought recast for simply due to the price barrier. Without recast I would not have been able to get into 30k.
Which works so long as 2 other people buy enough from forgeworld to replace the profit they aren't getting from you. GW can probably take the hit, but then again we all thought that about FASA, Borders books, and all that giant pile of dead FLGS where gaming metas used to be. You might have no effect or even a positive effect on the community, but be aware that someone else is having to cover your financial savings to keep the game alive and not in WHFB territory.
Which works so long as 2 other people buy enough from forgeworld to replace the profit they aren't getting from you. GW can probably take the hit, but then again we all thought that about FASA, Borders books, and all that giant pile of dead FLGS where gaming metas used to be. You might have no effect or even a positive effect on the community, but be aware that someone else is having to cover your financial savings to keep the game alive and not in WHFB territory.
So...it's OK so long as there's plenty of other people out there to compensate for those lost sales? I'm confused I thought buying from recasters PERIOD was bad?
Everyone hates on the recasters but no one says ANYTHING about the guys that scratch-build, proxy from other manufacturers, or 3D-print their own models. They're just as guilty of not contributing to FW sales.
For some reason it's only the recasters that create such vitriol.
And just for the record...I CAN afford FW product. I just choose not to buy anything from them because I think they charge too much. But if prices returned back to where they were a year or two ago (here in the U.S.) then I'd happily start buying from them again.
Here's the conundrum that a LOT of people (including myself) face as well:
We have different (better IMO) game systems that we buy the models for and promote because we like them/they're cheaper but our local communities/friends ONLY play GW games. It takes a lot of effort to buy and paint multiple factions for these games and demo them, all for the hope of trying to get others to buy into our alternate game system of choice. More often than not this never works out.
So we're left with the choice of either NOT playing these games and only collecting/painting, or buying into GW games which are ludicrously overpriced by a company that doesn't seem to care - if you can't afford or won't spend the money required to collect an army for these games then "you're not the type of customer we're after". EDIT: Hell they just mentioned recently that they even want you using ONLY their bases for their models. If you've based your 100% otherwise GW army on someone elses bases then...you're SoL; I guess it's "never been a better time to collect a new army" then huh?
So we're driven to the recasters JUST SO WE CAN PLAY GAMES LOCALLY WITH OUR FRIENDS AND COMMUNITY. And then we're hated and despised because of it when all we're trying to do is be a part of a community.
Which works so long as 2 other people buy enough from forgeworld to replace the profit they aren't getting from you..
It’s not really as simple as that, though. Profit GW ‘get’ from a single customer comes in a variety of streams. There are always people who value authenticity, and there are always people who like to play 30k, but think the authentic models are overpriced.
Consider someone who wants to play Heresy, buys their big tanks from recasters, but buys two sets of BAC from his local store. Is that lost profit or a gained customer? If that person can’t afford FW prices for the big tanks, and therefore just doesn’t get into 30k at all, that’s £300 of lost profit for GW in lost sales of books and BAC.
I agree that there has to be a good number of people who value the original product, but there are, and that’s not going away. But if the recasters are generating profit for GW through tapping into a market of potential players previously kept out by GWs price point, then GW benefits. They could benefit even more by realising that there IS a price they could set a Spartan at where they’d shift twice as many units, and setting them a5 that price.
To continue the analogy from a hundred pages back, I have a Hyundai which has been repaired over the years with third party parts, because they’re cheaper. Loads of people do this, but Hyundai still sell the more expensive ‘authentic’ parts because some people value that. If they decided to crack down on the third-party parts and make everyone only buy authentic, the cost of repairing Hyundais goes up and their overall sales go down.
Before talking about whole recasting thing you should first take notice about what is available in plastic and what is available in resin for HH.
Lets talk about the roots of the problem from the start.
FW before they even started making HH was a company that made special units for most of the races (alright, alright mostly IG) available in 40k. You could use these units but usually there was a general rule to ban them in normal games (at least in my area). So basically you had a GW made plastic/metal core of the force and optional funny toys made from resin. You didnt need these funny toys to play - they were optional.
So there came a time when (2012 i think) FW basically made their own game, a spin-off of 40k called Horus Heresy. However being its own game all miniatures for it were basically made from resin - there was no available core made from plastic/metal like 40k equivalent. You could use your 40k plastic marines but it wasnt the same. So at the start we can assume HH was like a game for people with big wallets. There is nothing really wrong with games for people with big wallets but it means there wouldnt be so many players around. Now if FW would like to increase the number of players they should think about making core of the army plastic just like 40k. So they should have released from the start:
1) MK3 or MK4 Assault Marines
2) MK3 or MK4 Tactical Marines with close combat variant pistol/chainsword (we got this but without pistol/chainswords - both MK3 and MK4)
3) MK3 or Mk4 Devastators
4) Plastic Deimos Pattern Rhino
5) Plastic Deimos Pattern Predator with several weapon options
6) Plastic Contemptor with several weapon options (we got this but only with 2 weapons + fist)
7) Cataphractii Terminators (we got this also with Tartaros variant)
8) Big introduction box that is a good deal (we got BaC and BoP)
9) Easily available and reasonable priced Legion and Army List codexes
Above plastic boxes should be absolute minimum for a HH game if it was supposed to be a viable alternative for 40k and not only a game for the people with big wallets. We only got 4 out of 9 i pointed out and only after several years in the making of HH. I myself started HH only after the release of BaC. If not for this box i wouldnt even try.
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So imagine yourself a player (with big wallet) starting around 2013 before even BaC box. You have to pay a lot for the books and miniatures sure, but the biggest problem is there are not many people around playing the game. And even if they are theyre probably using MK7 most of the time and dont use Deimos pattern.
Lets got to the end of 2015 - introduction of BaC. More people are coming to the game because 40k 7th is bloated. However because rules for HH are still costly and there are no Assault and Devastator plastic boxes what players have to do for their core of the army? Either convert or go recast. Now you (a player with big wallet) wants enemies to play so now what? Should they just dont start the game? Maybe should they wait for introduction of all 9 elements of the puzzle or just all of us should agree this is a game just for people with big wallets only (as should be proper)?
But you (a player with big wallet) want enemies to fight with... Why should you even consider buying a Primarch or other expensive toys from FW if there are no people to play with (assuming you want to play)? So with introduction of easily available plastic boxes you now have more of such enemies. But still there are no Assault, Devastator or Deimos pattern boxes. So what now? So here come recasters with help... so maybe they did help HH a little? Maybe some players with big wallets bought some more expensive toys from FW because they had more enemies to fight with?
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So what should be done? GW (or FW) fethed up from the start without releasing all basic necessary elements for players. No wonder so many recasters are around if you have to buy so many basic weaponry made from resin.
So are recasters completely bad? Yes and no depending on who youre asking but from a law standpoint - yes theyre bad. But from a game standpoint i would put them somewhere in the middle.
Everyone hates on the recasters but no one says ANYTHING about the guys that scratch-build, proxy from other manufacturers, or 3D-print their own models. They're just as guilty of not contributing to FW sales.
For some reason it's only the recasters that create such vitriol.
They aren't leeching on FW's work by copying already done work but are actually doing their own work though. Nor are they selling those to others. There's difference between doing work yourself and leeching for profit.
There's no excuse for the leeches that the recasters are. They are scumbags. Human genepool improves if they never get children.
Glumy wrote: Lets talk about the roots of the problem from the start. ------- So they should have released from the start: ------- So what should be done? GW (or FW) fethed up from the start without releasing all basic necessary elements for players. No wonder so many recasters are around if you have to buy so many basic weaponry made from resin.
While I agree with you generally, I don't think it's necessary for FW to have done all that 'from the start' at all. It's perfectly reasonable for a company to realise that there is a bigger market than originally thought, and adjust their product to fit it.
I'd suggest that, at the start, HH was a game intended for people with the big wallets. That's fine. But the basic release was some Legion stuff and some special characters, and FW were always really open that they expected people to use 40k plastic vehicles. The Deimos rhino was only made into a must-have by a community of rivet-counters - it was an 'alternate Rhino' when it was released. I think a game marketed to be so expensive encouraged this, but the result was a small community of big-wallet customers.
But then GW realised that a lot of people wanted to get into the game (or what always been a bit interested, but maybe because of 7ed 40k, were now seriously interested), but were put off by the massive cost of even basic troops, and that they could make more money by reducing the cost of entry. So they changed their gameplan to appeal not only to big-wallet customers but also slightly-higher-than-average-wallet customers by introducing plastic infantry. That's no different to Apple releasing an iPad mini, or Mercedes releasing a little city runaround. They've identified a demand and adjusted their offering to attract more customers.
They're not going for 'as big as 40k' here. They haven't 'fethed up' by not instantly releasing a full 30k Marine army in plastic. They've just expanded their customer base from 'the richest of gamers' to 'gamers who have a bit more money than the 40k average'. That's fine, and resulted in huge popularity for the game.
The recasters have identified a third market: gamers who are happy to spend 40k prices, and want to play Heresy, but either can't afford multiple £100 tanks or simply don't think a tank model is worth £100 for what it is. The sensible thing to do in that situation is to realise that market exists and find a way to cater to it (more plastic kits, cheaper resin kits and higher production, etc). If a Spartan cost £60 then far fewer people would buy a recast one, right?
Instead, they've removed all the plastic starter sets, increased the price of resin, and made it harder for their biggest source of new players (existing 40k players) to get into the game by separating the rules. It seems like the actual intention at the moment is to scale down the game and the size of the community. Again, that's fine (they're a busy company with a lot going on) but it does mean less releases and less support, and more things being discontinued.
Arbitorlan sure. I wrote "Now if FW would like to increase the number of players they should think about making core of the army plastic just like 40k." so change "from the start" to "once the decision was made to increase number of players".
The recasters have identified a third market: gamers who are happy to spend 40k prices, and want to play Heresy, but either can't afford multiple £100 tanks or simply don't think a tank model is worth £100 for what it is. The sensible thing to do in that situation is to realise that market exists and find a way to cater to it (more plastic kits, cheaper resin kits and higher production, etc). If a Spartan cost £60 then far fewer people would buy a recast one, right?
Instead, they've removed all the plastic starter sets, increased the price of resin, and made it harder for their biggest source of new players (existing 40k players) to get into the game by separating the rules. It seems like the actual intention at the moment is to scale down the game and the size of the community. Again, that's fine (they're a busy company with a lot going on) but it does mean less releases and less support, and more things being discontinued.
I think this gets to the root of it. If your goal was to grow this product line and the customer base that supports it, you would add plastics and drop prices. So to me there are several possible explanations for their refusal to do so:
1. Internal company policy that they can't possibly drop prices.
2. They're close to capacity and don't have room to increase production without additional costs and in their calculus the additional costs are not commensurate with the expected increase in profit.
3. They see 30k player base as a zero sum game with 40k players. If the player is already spending money on 40k, why spend resources to develop another product line?
3. They're dumb.
It's possible that it's a combination of these and other reasons. As a fan that wants more Heresy stuff, I am frustrated no matter the reasons for it.
totalfailure wrote: Oh, the tangled rationalizations we weave, when pirates we seek to be....
THANK YOU for proving my point. This attitude is EXACTLY what drives people into the arms of recasters.
I don't think dogmatic insistence on purity drives people into the arms of recasters, but it certainly stops any reasonable discussion. I do think that a very significant proportion of Heresy players buy recast models because they can't stomach to pay FW prices. So pretending that this is not happening is not helpful to anyone. If I was GW I would want to understand how to get part of that business back.
I've always been baffled by the argument that a recast sale made is a FW sale lost. It's like saying every song listened to on youtube is an album unsold, or every photo of an artwork is one less trip to the art gallery it's at. People have a budget and they ultimately spend it where they feel is best value for what they want. If they weren't spending a hundred quid on recast product, it's entirely possible it would go on warmachine or something else.
Ketara wrote: I've always been baffled by the argument that a recast sale made is a FW sale lost. It's like saying every song listened to on youtube is an album unsold, or every photo of an artwork is one less trip to the art gallery it's at. People have a budget and they ultimately spend it where they feel is best value for what they want. If they weren't spending a hundred quid on recast product, it's entirely possible it would go on warmachine or something else.
Regarding the musical analogy, you’re totally right. It’s long been a thing that, for people illegally downloading music (when that was a thing), the choice is not between illegal download or spending the money - it’s between illegal downloads and just being fine not having the music. Generally, people who like your band buy the album. Everyone else is just publicity.
gorgon wrote: I think 'die' is the wrong kind of language, though. As long as people are still playing it, the game is still 'alive'. As long as models and books are still available, the game is still 'supported'. And I don't see any reason why it can't be alive and supported for a long time according to those definitions. Some 30K kits would probably stay available even in the event of 30K's 'death', since those kits can be used in 40K now.
Will it be a shrinking HH community? Of course. It looks to me like focusing on a smaller pool of their best customers is the entire business plan, to be honest. But you know, maybe that's the best way to keep the thing sustainable for those customers. *shrug*
The basic rulebook that 30k is played under is not even available through GW or FLGS any more because of the switch to 8th.
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Ketara wrote: I've always been baffled by the argument that a recast sale made is a FW sale lost. It's like saying every song listened to on youtube is an album unsold, or every photo of an artwork is one less trip to the art gallery it's at. People have a budget and they ultimately spend it where they feel is best value for what they want. If they weren't spending a hundred quid on recast product, it's entirely possible it would go on warmachine or something else.
An even better analogy is saying every fake Rolex sold is a sale Rolex lost. That's not at all the case because literally nobody buying fake Rolexes would ever spend $10k+ on a watch, or they wouldn't even be pricing a fake Rolex to begin with. Some pirated songs are lost album sales because an album is cheap.
An even better analogy is saying every fake Rolex sold is a sale Rolex lost. That's not at all the case because literally nobody buying fake Rolexes would ever spend $10k+ on a watch, or they wouldn't even be pricing a fake Rolex to begin with. Some pirated songs are lost album sales because an album is cheap.
Except this 'literally' isn't true as at least one poster on this thread has said they can afford to buy FW prices, they don't because they don't feel they are justified.
I hope the future of HH isn't linked to recasters, and i hope that's echoed by all on here.
I think we should leave the re-casting discussion (at least within here) at that, as its an emotive subject and probably speaks to the individuals feelings on the nature of society, moral relativism and other matters, that wont be easily swayed, and gets even greyer and murkier when you consider things having gone from the range but still being in the army lists.
Personally, i just hope that we see some more from FW for the Heresy.
Do people feel that setting Titanicus in the Heresy is an indication of GW/FW desire to continue?
Or jsut a cynical ploy to sell nostalgia to the 'Old Guard'? (and yes, I fall into that bracket and have purchased it...!)
So, I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents. I've never played a game of anything 30k, 40k, Fantasy, or AoS. I enjoy building and painting the armies and I love the HH lore. So that's where I'm coming from. I hear all this business about HH being dead or dying out, I don't see it that way. And I don't see any reason why they would let it. When Warhammer Fantasy was killed off it was due to years of rule problems and finally a decline in sales. Or so I read on forums. When your bedrock product is pulling you down, you gotta do something drastic.
HH was kind of a niche game until Calth came out then it blew up. It makes sense the game would slow down since there has been no movement in 2 years. Which is understandable given the passing of Mr. Bligh. 40k and AoS would do the same thing under those circumstances. Ill bet GW/FW still makes money with the Heresy and they aren't going to stop while there is so much of the story left to tell.
My bet is Book 8 will come out and a lot of people will regain interest. Hopefully 9 will be out in, relatively, short order. I also expect another box set with new plastics at some point. Simply because GW will make a ton on it, like the others.
I do think the Heresy would benefit from some a reduction in the planned number of book, I read somewhere they wanted 20. I think they should do DA and maybe a 10th book as a "state of the galaxy/heresy" book to set up the Siege of Terra. They could write minor retcons and use that as a way to transition to 8th. Which I gather is a better rule set, but I don't really know.
Anyway, just some thoughts. And I do think the Titanicus is a way to expand the Heresy universe. I mean, its not like we don't know how it will end.
40kFSU wrote: So, I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents. I've never played a game of anything 30k, 40k, Fantasy, or AoS. I enjoy building and painting the armies and I love the HH lore. So that's where I'm coming from. I hear all this business about HH being dead or dying out, I don't see it that way. And I don't see any reason why they would let it. When Warhammer Fantasy was killed off it was due to years of rule problems and finally a decline in sales. Or so I read on forums. When your bedrock product is pulling you down, you gotta do something drastic.
HH was kind of a niche game until Calth came out then it blew up. It makes sense the game would slow down since there has been no movement in 2 years. Which is understandable given the passing of Mr. Bligh. 40k and AoS would do the same thing under those circumstances. Ill bet GW/FW still makes money with the Heresy and they aren't going to stop while there is so much of the story left to tell.
My bet is Book 8 will come out and a lot of people will regain interest. Hopefully 9 will be out in, relatively, short order. I also expect another box set with new plastics at some point. Simply because GW will make a ton on it, like the others.
I do think the Heresy would benefit from some a reduction in the planned number of book, I read somewhere they wanted 20. I think they should do DA and maybe a 10th book as a "state of the galaxy/heresy" book to set up the Siege of Terra. They could write minor retcons and use that as a way to transition to 8th. Which I gather is a better rule set, but I don't really know.
Anyway, just some thoughts. And I do think the Titanicus is a way to expand the Heresy universe. I mean, its not like we don't know how it will end.
It's hard to say for sure what will happen, but as I stated earlier in the thread, the three groups in my area all dried up not because of a lack of content, but because of the idiotic decision to remain a game based in 7th edition. That's well over 40 people who sold their models and went back to 40K.
TIf they had decided to switch to 8th immediately, I think four legions would have just gotten full rules and the rest of us would be using holdover lists thrown together late last year. I’d expect my Scars to get their full rules five years from now rather than in a few months. The 40kFAQs would have broken a few types of lists and we still wouldn’t have heard anything from Forge World addressing those issues. Heresy would be dying.
40kFSU wrote: I do think the Heresy would benefit from some a reduction in the planned number of book, I read somewhere they wanted 20. I think they should do DA and maybe a 10th book as a "state of the galaxy/heresy" book to set up the Siege of Terra. They could write minor retcons and use that as a way to transition to 8th. Which I gather is a better rule set, but I don't really know.
This sounds like a request to hurry up and kill the Heresy ahead of schedule.
At the last weekender, FW’s 30k team said they intend to release definitive army list books after finishing the Dark Angels and Dark Mechanicum, and that’s when they would consider changing the core rules. They’ll only be through the early Heresy, lore-wise, just having introduced each faction in books 1-9. The mid-Heresy (or late-Heresy if they skip that) might therefore be a fundamentally differently game. I think that’d work.
No, definitely don’t want to end the Heresy early. I see how it came off that way. Just thinking about how to update everything at once. I didn’t know about those army books after book 9. That would probably do the trick. I guess that’s what I get for not reading all the posts.
An even better analogy is saying every fake Rolex sold is a sale Rolex lost. That's not at all the case because literally nobody buying fake Rolexes would ever spend $10k+ on a watch, or they wouldn't even be pricing a fake Rolex to begin with. Some pirated songs are lost album sales because an album is cheap.
Except this 'literally' isn't true as at least one poster on this thread has said they can afford to buy FW prices, they don't because they don't feel they are justified.
I hope the future of HH isn't linked to recasters, and i hope that's echoed by all on here.
I think we should leave the re-casting discussion (at least within here) at that, as its an emotive subject and probably speaks to the individuals feelings on the nature of society, moral relativism and other matters, that wont be easily swayed, and gets even greyer and murkier when you consider things having gone from the range but still being in the army lists.
Personally, i just hope that we see some more from FW for the Heresy.
Do people feel that setting Titanicus in the Heresy is an indication of GW/FW desire to continue?
Or jsut a cynical ploy to sell nostalgia to the 'Old Guard'? (and yes, I fall into that bracket and have purchased it...!)
I believe I was the one that said that. Just because I can afford FW prices doesn't mean I would pay their prices if recasts didn't exist. I thought their prices were hard to justify before, but I still bought from FW. After the overnight price hike by 30% because reasons, that's where they crossed the line into "nope, not worth it" territory.
40kFSU, it’s a painfully repetitive thread to read in its entirety, and I’m not helping with that. But yeah, I think we’re on the same page and for once FW seems to have some sort of long-term plan.
During the same weekender talk they also said they wouldn’t be surprised if GW told FW where to take 30k in terms of rules. There’s more coordination between the two than before (though not enough for anyone at FW to have foreknowledge about how big a change 8th would be).
An even better analogy is saying every fake Rolex sold is a sale Rolex lost. That's not at all the case because literally nobody buying fake Rolexes would ever spend $10k+ on a watch, or they wouldn't even be pricing a fake Rolex to begin with. Some pirated songs are lost album sales because an album is cheap.
Except this 'literally' isn't true as at least one poster on this thread has said they can afford to buy FW prices, they don't because they don't feel they are justified.
I’m one. I was (grudgingly) fine with their UK prices. Felt taken advantage of for not getting VAT deducted, but I was still buying their stuff. Then they killed torsos and Mk II, which I’d bought and could use more of, apparently so that they could jack up our prices despite not having significant foreign costs (unlike GW). I still like the game or I wouldn’t be here whining about it, but I’m not planning on buying anything from FW for a while and will probably fade out of 30k. I could now see myself wrapping up the army with recasts just to complete the project. Or 3rd party minis. Fewer moral issues there.
When is the next Forge World event that may tell us more?
And when is book 8 planned to be out now?
I never got into the game, but picked up a few models, would like to see it continue.
But the thing they MUST do is get all factions (legions) out before finishing.
(I don’t think they’re in a bad place and thinking of stopping, just delayed by the unforeseen circumstances).
The worst thing that GW did was end fantasy just before getting the last 2-3 8th Edition books out which would have wrapped it nicely..
My bet is Book 8 will come out and a lot of people will regain interest. Hopefully 9 will be out in, relatively, short order. I also expect another box set with new plastics at some point. Simply because GW will make a ton on it, like the others.
Well i dont want to sound harsh but i think you will lose this bet. Book 8 if they release it now (or soon) while still in 7th edition will see as much as half the sold copies of the worst selling previous books. Why? Well because if you look at this thread many players will say they either lost interest themselves or everyone around them lost interest because HH stayed in 7th. That means less players interested and less sold copies.
Hardcore HH fans will buy it anyway but if they want more sold copies they have to switch to 8th or make renew the edition. Going 8th is probably best answer if they want sales.
Sure, it shared the rules of 7th edition with 40k for a while, but I was under the assumption (maybe falsely) that Heresy was always meant to be its own game system. Essentially a specialist game or akin to LoTR.
It's a stupid amount of entitlement to demand/threaten that Heresy rules get updated to 8th edition. That's like saying you'll sell your Flames of War army unless they change the rules to be more like Star Wars Armada (just because you don't want to learn a new ruleset or you like that second ruleset better)
They're.two.completely.different.games. I get that 7th edition isn't for everyone, but why do the folks who love 8th edition get to set the terms for everyone else? Why can't Heresy stay 7th and 40k stay 8th?
Sure, it shared the rules of 7th edition with 40k for a while, but I was under the assumption (maybe falsely) that Heresy was always meant to be its own game system. Essentially a specialist game or akin to LoTR.
It's a stupid amount of entitlement to demand/threaten that Heresy rules get updated to 8th edition. That's like saying you'll sell your Flames of War army unless they change the rules to be more like Star Wars Armada (just because you don't want to learn a new ruleset or you like that second ruleset better)
They're.two.completely.different.games. I get that 7th edition isn't for everyone, but why do the folks who love 8th edition get to set the terms for everyone else? Why can't Heresy stay 7th and 40k stay 8th?
You can read through the thread to see that it's not entitlement that's causing folks to want a switch to 8th, but a belief that this would lead to player base growth and hence a healthier game. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you. And it didn't start as a separate game, it was more of a mod to the existing game. Now they are separate games and it's hard to bring people into it so that we can continue to play.
No, they were two different settings in the same system. Now they are two different settings in different systems and some people obviously don't agree with that decision.
Sure, it shared the rules of 7th edition with 40k for a while, but I was under the assumption (maybe falsely) that Heresy was always meant to be its own game system. Essentially a specialist game or akin to LoTR.
It's a stupid amount of entitlement to demand/threaten that Heresy rules get updated to 8th edition. That's like saying you'll sell your Flames of War army unless they change the rules to be more like Star Wars Armada (just because you don't want to learn a new ruleset or you like that second ruleset better)
They're.two.completely.different.games. I get that 7th edition isn't for everyone, but why do the folks who love 8th edition get to set the terms for everyone else? Why can't Heresy stay 7th and 40k stay 8th?
You are aware that a 8th edition style HH rulebook was under development at forgeworld, right? They don't need to have identical rules, but continuing to use a base ruleset copied form one of the worse editions of 40k to ever come out has hurt and will continue to hurt the game.
For background - it did start out as a supplement that used the 40k rules, and at his last FW event appearance Alan Bligh said he intended to keep it that way. He said that when everyone knew 8th edition was on the way, but before anyone outside of GW’s main studio knew what it would look like.
The first book was written for 5th edition, but was released after 6th had come out. That meant a few minor little things didn’t work. Then 7th came out, and FW eventually released a FAQ to fix some issues. You still see a few holdovers from 6th in 30k’s unit entries, like a tank or two that have the “Heavy” trait.
Then we got the Great Multibombing Debate when a 7th ed. 40kFAQ stated that a squad could only use one grenade a turn (or something like that). It didn’t have a significant effect on 40k, but a lot of 30k assault-oriented lists were dependent on units being able to use several meltabombs a turn. It would’ve gutted them. FW was extremely slow to react, so a large number of players and a majority of 30k events decided to flat out ignore the change. At that point, I’d say the community decided that 30k needed its own rules. They could be based on 40k, but given that FW seemed incapable of reacting to 40k rules changes in a timely fashion - let alone prepare for them in advance - they needed to split. That’s the best part of 30k getting its own rulebook.
If we go to 8th edition, fine. I’m not a fan, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world. We just need 30k’s 8th ed. rules to remain independent of 40k’s: separate FAQs, separate erratas, even the ability to change the stats of units or wargear that exist in both settings.
Carlisimo wrote: For background - it did start out as a supplement that used the 40k rules, and at his last FW event appearance Alan Bligh said he intended to keep it that way. He said that when everyone knew 8th edition was on the way, but before anyone outside of GW’s main studio knew what it would look like.
The first book was written for 5th edition, but was released after 6th had come out. That meant a few minor little things didn’t work. Then 7th came out, and FW eventually released a FAQ to fix some issues. You still see a few holdovers from 6th in 30k’s unit entries, like a tank or two that have the “Heavy” trait.
Then we got the Great Multibombing Debate when a 7th ed. 40kFAQ stated that a squad could only use one grenade a turn (or something like that). It didn’t have a significant effect on 40k, but a lot of 30k assault-oriented lists were dependent on units being able to use several meltabombs a turn. It would’ve gutted them. FW was extremely slow to react, so a large number of players and a majority of 30k events decided to flat out ignore the change. At that point, I’d say the community decided that 30k needed its own rules. They could be based on 40k, but given that FW seemed incapable of reacting to 40k rules changes in a timely fashion - let alone prepare for them in advance - they needed to split. That’s the best part of 30k getting its own rulebook.
If we go to 8th edition, fine. I’m not a fan, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world. We just need 30k’s 8th ed. rules to remain independent of 40k’s: separate FAQs, separate erratas, even the ability to change the stats of units or wargear that exist in both settings.
It seems like Book 7 started incorporating ideas for 8th edition and then Alan died and they released an incomplete disaster. Things like Russ having a rule for -1 to hit in combat. In 7th edition that's a weird concept that is hard to implement. In 8th edition that concept makes perfect sense.
There’s a competing rumor that says they had no access to 8th until it was out in the public, and a separate one that says they started working on one but found that they couldn’t get the granularity they wanted to keep each legion feeling distinctive (that one isn’t mutually exclusive with the others).
Good point though, that was an unusual rule that works better in 8th.
Sure, it shared the rules of 7th edition with 40k for a while, but I was under the assumption (maybe falsely) that Heresy was always meant to be its own game system. Essentially a specialist game or akin to LoTR.
It's a stupid amount of entitlement to demand/threaten that Heresy rules get updated to 8th edition. That's like saying you'll sell your Flames of War army unless they change the rules to be more like Star Wars Armada (just because you don't want to learn a new ruleset or you like that second ruleset better)
They're.two.completely.different.games. I get that 7th edition isn't for everyone, but why do the folks who love 8th edition get to set the terms for everyone else? Why can't Heresy stay 7th and 40k stay 8th?
I’m echoing a few people here, but Alan always said that Heresy was an expansion to 40k. When that game went from 5th to 6th, Heresy went with it. When it went from 6th to 7th, Heresy went with it. And as we know, there was a plan for that to happen with 7th to 8th, and various rumours about why they ended up not doing it. I think the only one we know for sure is true is that, at the point of Alan’s death and now, FW was extremely busy, possibly understaffed, and with a lot of new games on their plate. That’s, realistically the main reason it didn’t change.
A lot of people are annoyed by the decision to switch because:
- they outright prefer 8th to 7th
- they bought into the system because of its ease of switching between Heresy games and 40k games and now that’s gone
- they have small Heresy communities and used to play vs 40k armies and now can’t
- since the decision to remain in 7ed, Heresy has dried up in their area
- they fear that over time Heresy will slowly die as it’s recruiting pool gets smaller and smaller
- they want cool models and fear that release schedules are going to slow down for the same reason as above
Sure, it shared the rules of 7th edition with 40k for a while, but I was under the assumption (maybe falsely) that Heresy was always meant to be its own game system. Essentially a specialist game or akin to LoTR.
It's a stupid amount of entitlement to demand/threaten that Heresy rules get updated to 8th edition. That's like saying you'll sell your Flames of War army unless they change the rules to be more like Star Wars Armada (just because you don't want to learn a new ruleset or you like that second ruleset better)
They're.two.completely.different.games. I get that 7th edition isn't for everyone, but why do the folks who love 8th edition get to set the terms for everyone else? Why can't Heresy stay 7th and 40k stay 8th?
I, echoing a few people here, but Alan always said that Heresy was an expansion to 40k.when that game went from 5th to 6th, Heresy went with it. When it went from 6th to 7th, Heresy went with it. And as we know, there was a plan for that to happen with 7th to 8th, and various rumours about why they ended up not doing it. I think the only one we know for sure is true is that, at the point of Alan’s death and now, FW was extremely busy, possibly understaffed, and with a lot of new games on their plate. That’s, realistically the main reason it didn’t change.
A lot of people are annoyed by the decision to switch because:
- they prefer 8th to 7ed
- they bought into the system because of its ease of switching between that and 40k and now that’s gone
- they have small Heresy communities and used to play vs 40k armies and now can’t
- since the decision to remain in 7ed, Heresy has dried up in their area
- they fear that over time Heresy will slowly die as it’s recruiting pool gets smaller and smaller
- they want cool models and fear that release schedules are going to slow down for the same reason as above
I can appreciate a lot of those worries. I know I am lucky in that my local community is growing.
Really switching to 8th wouldn't be a big issue if 8th was ya know, not a bad system.
Again, that is my opinion and I am not knocking anyone who enjoys 8th.
That said, it has too many issues. Cover is pointless, the constant FAQ is a pain and it just does not feel like 40k.
Sure, it shared the rules of 7th edition with 40k for a while, but I was under the assumption (maybe falsely) that Heresy was always meant to be its own game system. Essentially a specialist game or akin to LoTR.
It's a stupid amount of entitlement to demand/threaten that Heresy rules get updated to 8th edition. That's like saying you'll sell your Flames of War army unless they change the rules to be more like Star Wars Armada (just because you don't want to learn a new ruleset or you like that second ruleset better)
They're.two.completely.different.games. I get that 7th edition isn't for everyone, but why do the folks who love 8th edition get to set the terms for everyone else? Why can't Heresy stay 7th and 40k stay 8th?
I, echoing a few people here, but Alan always said that Heresy was an expansion to 40k.when that game went from 5th to 6th, Heresy went with it. When it went from 6th to 7th, Heresy went with it. And as we know, there was a plan for that to happen with 7th to 8th, and various rumours about why they ended up not doing it. I think the only one we know for sure is true is that, at the point of Alan’s death and now, FW was extremely busy, possibly understaffed, and with a lot of new games on their plate. That’s, realistically the main reason it didn’t change.
A lot of people are annoyed by the decision to switch because:
- they prefer 8th to 7ed
- they bought into the system because of its ease of switching between that and 40k and now that’s gone
- they have small Heresy communities and used to play vs 40k armies and now can’t
- since the decision to remain in 7ed, Heresy has dried up in their area
- they fear that over time Heresy will slowly die as it’s recruiting pool gets smaller and smaller
- they want cool models and fear that release schedules are going to slow down for the same reason as above
I can appreciate a lot of those worries. I know I am lucky in that my local community is growing.
Really switching to 8th wouldn't be a big issue if 8th was ya know, not a bad system.
Again, that is my opinion and I am not knocking anyone who enjoys 8th.
That said, it has too many issues. Cover is pointless, the constant FAQ is a pain and it just does not feel like 40k.
I must disagree. It has far less issues than 7th (even HH.) As someone who was looking into getting into HH (We ended up using the 8th fanrules on here), I much prefer 8th's rules.
WIth Alternate Activation and fixing Cover, 8th becomes a really fun game. Especially in the HH.
Sure, it shared the rules of 7th edition with 40k for a while, but I was under the assumption (maybe falsely) that Heresy was always meant to be its own game system. Essentially a specialist game or akin to LoTR.
It's a stupid amount of entitlement to demand/threaten that Heresy rules get updated to 8th edition. That's like saying you'll sell your Flames of War army unless they change the rules to be more like Star Wars Armada (just because you don't want to learn a new ruleset or you like that second ruleset better)
They're.two.completely.different.games. I get that 7th edition isn't for everyone, but why do the folks who love 8th edition get to set the terms for everyone else? Why can't Heresy stay 7th and 40k stay 8th?
I, echoing a few people here, but Alan always said that Heresy was an expansion to 40k.when that game went from 5th to 6th, Heresy went with it. When it went from 6th to 7th, Heresy went with it. And as we know, there was a plan for that to happen with 7th to 8th, and various rumours about why they ended up not doing it. I think the only one we know for sure is true is that, at the point of Alan’s death and now, FW was extremely busy, possibly understaffed, and with a lot of new games on their plate. That’s, realistically the main reason it didn’t change.
A lot of people are annoyed by the decision to switch because:
- they prefer 8th to 7ed
- they bought into the system because of its ease of switching between that and 40k and now that’s gone
- they have small Heresy communities and used to play vs 40k armies and now can’t
- since the decision to remain in 7ed, Heresy has dried up in their area
- they fear that over time Heresy will slowly die as it’s recruiting pool gets smaller and smaller
- they want cool models and fear that release schedules are going to slow down for the same reason as above
I can appreciate a lot of those worries. I know I am lucky in that my local community is growing.
Really switching to 8th wouldn't be a big issue if 8th was ya know, not a bad system.
Again, that is my opinion and I am not knocking anyone who enjoys 8th.
That said, it has too many issues. Cover is pointless, the constant FAQ is a pain and it just does not feel like 40k.
I must disagree. It has far less issues than 7th (even HH.) As someone who was looking into getting into HH (We ended up using the 8th fanrules on here), I much prefer 8th's rules.
WIth Alternate Activation and fixing Cover, 8th becomes a really fun game. Especially in the HH.
You are not the only one who is enjoying game in 8th!
Thanks to those fan made rules, we managed to resurrect it in my area, after being dead from the moment 8th came out, and FW expertly handling HH currently...
I'm a little late to the party, I was really interested in 30k when I got back into the game w 8th. then I found out that 30k used 7th and I immediately lost interest in the game(while still loving & buying models) but had hope it would make the transition to 8th. I'm still waiting but now with the price hike I'm basically sticking to upgrades & stuff I can use for my 40k Salamanders. I was all set on Legio Cybernetica robots but.....that's not happening. There are only a few local 30k I'm my area and I would totally join them.
I love the lore & the models, they just need to fix how it's executed on the tabletop.
godardc wrote: How have the 8th ed house rules of HH resurrected your area ? Do you play against 40k armies and thus needed cross compatibility ?
We play only against HH army, but no one feels like goind back to 7th and playing 2 editions, since almost everyone is first 40k player then HH player.
Racerguy180 wrote: I'm a little late to the party, I was really interested in 30k when I got back into the game w 8th. then I found out that 30k used 7th and I immediately lost interest in the game(while still loving & buying models) but had hope it would make the transition to 8th. I'm still waiting but now with the price hike I'm basically sticking to upgrades & stuff I can use for my 40k Salamanders. I was all set on Legio Cybernetica robots but.....that's not happening. There are only a few local 30k I'm my area and I would totally join them.
I love the lore & the models, they just need to fix how it's executed on the tabletop.
Have you actually played a game of 30k using 7th edition rules? You'll find that the things most people complain about and consider broken in 7th go away in 30K due to no formations. Everyone is MEQ (except Mechanicum). At that point, most of the issues just... go away. That's not to say it's a perfect system, but neither is 8th. Different flavors for different folks.
When 8th edition rolled out, we had 9 very expensive, leather bound books detailing all but three Legions (missing DA, BA, and White Scars). Those books are the best that GW has ever produced and worth every penny they cost (over US$100 for a rule/fluff book, and the rules are already out dated and require one of the Red Books). There was no way Forge World could convert those books and Legions over to 8th edition without destroying everything they had set up so far. It's already taking FW YEARS to produce ONE book. We would probably still be waiting for 8th edition Legion rules if they converted over, and instead be using PDF "Indexes" that would have destroyed the character of the game. It would have murdered 30K.
For me personally, 8th edition characters are totally underwhelming and lack everything that makes them unique. The granularity of 7th edition rules are washed away in "streamlining" and "simplification" for faster game play and ease of use. There is no flavor in 8th edition soup.
There is no doubt that the Horus Heresy will eventually make the jump to a newer edition. It just might not be 8th, but probably 9th edition.
When 8th edition rolled out, we had 9 very expensive, leather bound books detailing all but three Legions (missing DA, BA, and White Scars). Those books are the best that GW has ever produced and worth every penny they cost (over US$100 for a rule/fluff book, and the rules are already out dated and require one of the Red Books).
I did play one game of 30k and compared to 8th I found it too boring/needlessly tedious(kinda the reason I stayed away from GW for so long). the faster pace of play and destruction of 8th appeals to me. I would gladly give it a second try but at this point I'd rather just play 40k (where I can find a game every week).
I can echo the hobbyist/collector sentiment, the models and the lore are what drew me back, the game is secondary(prob 3or4th).
More than 50% of my 40k Salamanders are HH, I would just need to get a LOW & a Leviathan to bulk out what's already existing.
Either way I do hope that FW would continue to develop the game and fill out the rest of the legions to get ready for the Siege of Terra(maybe some cool "new" never seen before stuff. Scoria went a long way in showing they still at least kinda "care" about it.
I bought two Calth and a Pospero box to make a 30k army and I sorta have enough infantry for two armies.
I'd love to do Alpha Legion so I can spend time modeling those cool units from other armies to add to my lists but the whole 7th ed rules thing is a real drag when 8th scaled down some superfluous stuff. I never loved the more complex rules that were slowly added to 40k because it felt like they were successively tacked on to sell new kits. I never thought when I started Grey Knights in 3rd edition that I'd one day have to remember hover mode rules for fliers.
I really love the tragedy of the HH and would love to really sink my teeth into an army but I'd much rather play it in 8th edition rules. That's just me, an [over]paying customer.
Have you actually played a game of 30k using 7th edition rules? You'll find that the things most people complain about and consider broken in 7th go away in 30K due to no formations. Everyone is MEQ (except Mechanicum). At that point, most of the issues just... go away. That's not to say it's a perfect system, but neither is 8th.
My issues with 7th have absolutely nothing to do with formations, but with the flaws inherent to the system itself. Wound allocation, character rules, vehicle rules, psychic rules, disparity between monstrous creatures and walkers, terrain rules, etc. When FW published their own rulebook, they had the chance to pick and choose from all the best rules that had been written in the various editions since 3rd...and they didn't.
Have you actually played a game of 30k using 7th edition rules? You'll find that the things most people complain about and consider broken in 7th go away in 30K due to no formations. Everyone is MEQ (except Mechanicum). At that point, most of the issues just... go away. That's not to say it's a perfect system, but neither is 8th.
My issues with 7th have absolutely nothing to do with formations, but with the flaws inherent to the system itself. Wound allocation, character rules, vehicle rules, psychic rules, disparity between monstrous creatures and walkers, terrain rules, etc. When FW published their own rulebook, they had the chance to pick and choose from all the best rules that had been written in the various editions since 3rd...and they didn't.
Yep. I was really excited to start 30k because I thought it was a given they'd use 8th edition rules.
I know I'm oversimplifying this but I feel like a chunk of the Legion army list I was looking over today could be converted to 8th edition simply by changing the points of the wargear with the help of CTRL+F. It's not like, for example, Sons of Horus unit points need to match 8th edition Dark Eldar, the points of the models just need to match up to other 30k marines. Wargear points really need to change (like combi weapons) but many of the 30k armies manipulate the same special rules like Infiltrate. Once you've altered the Raven Guard entries that deal with Infiltrate you're just a CTRL+F away from fixing Alpha Legion in the same way.
I know that game rules writing must be only just behind nuclear physics in its rigorous testing methodology and complexity but I feel like an 8th edition style 30k index codex shouldn't actually take that long seeing as how 8th edition rules actually shed 7th's complexity rather than add to it. If 8th edition was a chunkier, more complex version of 7th I could understand the difficulty.
One of the big draws to me would be the change to AP and wounds. It seems like there are just a ton of weapons in HH that seem pretty useless because 95% of the models have a 3+ save, using 8th edition's AP changes would really open up my modelling and listbuilding options to more choices in the HH codexes.
HH is hardly clunky or slow. As it is 8th ed turns take longer to play. I have yet to play gw game that is as slow as 8th ed is...It's only saved by being basically 2 turn games and that's not a plus...
And 8th ed AP system also has made power armour and terminator armour pretty much irrelevant. Good idea to have game system supposedly about marine legions only to result anything with 3+ and 2+ as being junk!
tneva82 wrote: HH is hardly clunky or slow. As it is 8th ed turns take longer to play. I have yet to play gw game that is as slow as 8th ed is...It's only saved by being basically 2 turn games and that's not a plus...
Most everything in 8E should be faster. There's fewer charts to roll on, less table stuff to slow stuff down, movement rates are faster, killing power is greater, even in most cases army lists are smaller than previous editions. Aside from familiarity issues, there's not much that should be slower in 8E than in previous editions.
And 8th ed AP system also has made power armour and terminator armour pretty much irrelevant. Good idea to have game system supposedly about marine legions only to result anything with 3+ and 2+ as being junk!
To be fair, the quantity of AP2/3 weapons in previous editions and the HH ruleset mean that armor saves were ignored entirely pretty often, and it's not like 40k hasn't had ASM's before in previous editions, and they were far less friendly to Marine saves then. Power armor still matters, it just works a bit differently. Instead of it being a "3+ or nothing", it's more likely to be a 4+ or 5+. Most issues with armor saves in 8E are more points related than fundamental functionality issues.
tneva82 wrote: HH is hardly clunky or slow. As it is 8th ed turns take longer to play. I have yet to play gw game that is as slow as 8th ed is...It's only saved by being basically 2 turn games and that's not a plus...
Most everything in 8E should be faster. There's fewer charts to roll on, less table stuff to slow stuff down, movement rates are faster, killing power is greater, even in most cases army lists are smaller than previous editions. Aside from familiarity issues, there's not much that should be slower in 8E than in previous editions.
And 8th ed AP system also has made power armour and terminator armour pretty much irrelevant. Good idea to have game system supposedly about marine legions only to result anything with 3+ and 2+ as being junk!
To be fair, the quantity of AP2/3 weapons in previous editions and the HH ruleset mean that armor saves were ignored entirely pretty often, and it's not like 40k hasn't had ASM's before in previous editions, and they were far less friendly to Marine saves then. Power armor still matters, it just works a bit differently. Instead of it being a "3+ or nothing", it's more likely to be a 4+ or 5+. Most issues with armor saves in 8E are more points related than fundamental functionality issues.
This was my thinking too. In a game where almost every model has a 3+ it means any gun that's not AP3 is sorta useless. I actually prefer 8th's system of armor modifications to that as it enhances listbuilding. Is there any reason to take a heavy bolter in 30k at all?
This was my thinking too. In a game where almost every model has a 3+ it means any gun that's not AP3 is sorta useless. I actually prefer 8th's system of armor modifications to that as it enhances listbuilding. Is there any reason to take a heavy bolter in 30k at all?
I think there is a lot of weapons in seventh that are pretty useless. It’s because of the way seventh grew out of third by booting on extra rules to a much smaller game.
So, a game of third would maybe involve one predator and one dreadnought and those will be quite big threats. Then you might have the odd lascannon and the odd missile launcher to take care of them. Maybe even a devastator squad! In that situation, exceptions to the normal turn events (for example, the sequence with blast weapons) would only happen occasionally, so the game remained quite quick and, given the lower overall power level, all the basic 40k weapons had solid roles.
As third progressed through to seventh, so many more powerful unit types were added (superheavies, knights, flyers, tons more ‘monstrous creatures’) that the original restrictions of the system became apparent, and suddenly you have structure points, then hull points, or D weapons, or units with tons of USRs because it’s the only way of scaling up from the original 1-10 scale of third. And all that stuff involves exceptions to the normal turn sequence which slows things down.
One of the really big thing I like about 8ed is how a lascannon is a genuinely GOOD anti-tank weapon again. Or that heavy bolters make sense again. And part of that is that, by adding a few columns to the weapon profiles, they can be differentiated better without needing loads of USRs.
One of the really big thing I like about 8ed is how a lascannon is a genuinely GOOD anti-tank weapon again. Or that heavy bolters make sense again. And part of that is that, by adding a few columns to the weapon profiles, they can be differentiated better without needing loads of USRs.
Perhaps but dont forget because we lost templates many weapons also lost their uniqueness. Battlecannons are nothing more than rapid firing missile launcher.
Racerguy180 wrote: I'm a little late to the party, I was really interested in 30k when I got back into the game w 8th. then I found out that 30k used 7th and I immediately lost interest in the game(while still loving & buying models) but had hope it would make the transition to 8th. I'm still waiting but now with the price hike I'm basically sticking to upgrades & stuff I can use for my 40k Salamanders. I was all set on Legio Cybernetica robots but.....that's not happening. There are only a few local 30k I'm my area and I would totally join them.
I love the lore & the models, they just need to fix how it's executed on the tabletop.
Have you actually played a game of 30k using 7th edition rules? You'll find that the things most people complain about and consider broken in 7th go away in 30K due to no formations. Everyone is MEQ (except Mechanicum). At that point, most of the issues just... go away. That's not to say it's a perfect system, but neither is 8th. Different flavors for different folks.
That's the important bit. I've played one game of Horus heresy since 8th edition 40k came out (to be fair, I've not played many more games of 40k ), and both my opponent and I came away a little disappointed. The main thing that has always bugged me is the Artificer Armour "exploit". It just doesn't seem to make sense in the context of the setting to me (but YMMV). The actual game was fairly close (despite the enemy's Avenger being utterly unopposed and having free rein to shoot up my army), but we just felt we preferred the basics of 8th edition. 8th seems to do a better job of having characters be commanders or battlefield support rather than having to just be better fighters, for example.
It also seems to me that a lot of the Legion-specific rules, odd bits of equipment (the sonic thingies you can add to Emperor's Children units for example) and special formations could be represented well using 8th edition's Stratagems.
It's not a matter of not wanting to remember more than one set of rules - I play loads of games as it is, so one more is no issue.
I'd hate stratagems to be added into 30k. Your army developed a unique tactic to benefit them but they only remember to use it some of the time. Even worse with equipment, you take a special weapon with you but forget you have it.
But some things do need fixing in 30ks rules like casualties. My friend and I have made the rule that owning player chooses which model takes wounds and it is so much easier than faffing over who is closest to the shooter.
This was my thinking too. In a game where almost every model has a 3+ it means any gun that's not AP3 is sorta useless. I actually prefer 8th's system of armor modifications to that as it enhances listbuilding. Is there any reason to take a heavy bolter in 30k at all?
Yeah, the return of ASM's and a Damage stat make weapons variety and choices a lot more interesting, and you dont need to totally ignore armor or overwhelm it with stupid numbers of shots to be effective.
One of the really big thing I like about 8ed is how a lascannon is a genuinely GOOD anti-tank weapon again. Or that heavy bolters make sense again. And part of that is that, by adding a few columns to the weapon profiles, they can be differentiated better without needing loads of USRs.
Perhaps but dont forget because we lost templates many weapons also lost their uniqueness. Battlecannons are nothing more than rapid firing missile launcher.
I'm 100% ok with losing blast templates. While id have probably done the BC a bit differently, overall the weapon is dramatically more functional than it was with a blast template. There's less awkward fiddlyness and arguing, you're not dependent on the physical position of enemy models to try and get hits, there is a far more consistent damage output, and the battlecannon is actually rather capable at engaging tanks and monsters now whereas with the Blast template it was pretty garbage at engaging those kinds of targets.
The Battlecannon is a much more effective weapon in 8E than it ever was in 3E-7E as a result.
Vaktathi wrote: The Battlecannon is a much more effective weapon in 8E than it ever was in 3E-7E as a result.
I don't think the argument was against its effectiveness, but its uniqueness. Bringing a battlecannon is no different than bringing its point equivalence in missile launchers, while previously the weapons were different enough that their point equivalence in each other still didn't do the same job.
For my part, I still play 30k actively (as does my FLGS). We enjoy having an alternative ruleset than 8th edition. Several of us (myself included) don't wholly embrace Stratagems, and it's pretty much impossible to get away from them in 40k (removing them means Command Points are worthless, which means Detachments lose a lot of impact). But there are those of us who play both systems. Personally, I think it's fine to have two game systems. Let them play differently. Let the people who enjoy one but not the other have their sandbox. It's why I was bummed when 40k rather homogenized itself with AoS. The core mechanics are similar enough that I feel like I'm playing the same game with slight modifications (which I can see as a positive point on one hand, but I'd prefer to have options).
I've watched people just guess with blast templates and I've seen a 2" roll become a 4" move. Just rolling for a number of hits actually introduces the same element of randomness you get from scattering templates without the movement phase geometric machinations people engage in to minimize blast template casualties. Flamer templates were the only ones that really made sense to keep in my opinion.
Fajita Fan wrote: I've watched people just guess with blast templates and I've seen a 2" roll become a 4" move. Just rolling for a number of hits actually introduces the same element of randomness you get from scattering templates without the movement phase geometric machinations people engage in to minimize blast template casualties. Flamer templates were the only ones that really made sense to keep in my opinion.
Oh, I don't think the system that was (and is now for 30k) perfect by any means. I would love, for example, to introduce armor save modification as opposed to the feast-or-famine AP system it has now. Old Warhammer Fantasy's strength-based armor modifications were cleanest implementation, imo.
I do enjoy having movement and positioning be a factor in the game, which makes blasts and templates interesting to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one to remember offering a tempting unit clump with a 2+ save optimally placed to soak the damage. Random shot count is a poor replacement imo, at least in its current iteration. Something along the lines of D3 shots per 5 models in the target unit, on the other hand, seems better. More targets = higher chance of hitting for such weapons just seems intuitive.
I don't think the argument was against its effectiveness, but its uniqueness. Bringing a battlecannon is no different than bringing its point equivalence in missile launchers, while previously the weapons were different enough that their point equivalence in each other still didn't do the same job.
Yes, exactly. Getting a nice Vindicator shot against some densely packed unit is also quite spectacular. If someone doesnt like blasts there are weapons that use normal shooting rules. I think there are like 9 Lemar Russ turrets - is everyone of them using now standard hit -> wound -> save?
Im also for a new edition for HH not because 8th edition might be such a wonderful better edition but going 8th (or some unification of 7th and 8th) ensures that more people will play HH.
Fajita Fan wrote: I've watched people just guess with blast templates and I've seen a 2" roll become a 4" move. Just rolling for a number of hits actually introduces the same element of randomness you get from scattering templates without the movement phase geometric machinations people engage in to minimize blast template casualties. Flamer templates were the only ones that really made sense to keep in my opinion.
Oh, I don't think the system that was (and is now for 30k) perfect by any means. I would love, for example, to introduce armor save modification as opposed to the feast-or-famine AP system it has now. Old Warhammer Fantasy's strength-based armor modifications were cleanest implementation, imo.
I do enjoy having movement and positioning be a factor in the game, which makes blasts and templates interesting to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one to remember offering a tempting unit clump with a 2+ save optimally placed to soak the damage. Random shot count is a poor replacement imo, at least in its current iteration. Something along the lines of D3 shots per 5 models in the target unit, on the other hand, seems better. More targets = higher chance of hitting for such weapons just seems intuitive.
Some sort of scaling would work, but there should also be a cap based on the weapon type. I mean even with blaqst markers, you can only fit seven Space marines under the 3" blast marker at most, whether there's ten or 20 Marines in the target unit. Make blast weapons of type <parent type> Blast x (e.g. Heavy Blast 2 for a frag missile), where Blast x is the maximum number of D3 you can roll.
Vaktathi wrote: The Battlecannon is a much more effective weapon in 8E than it ever was in 3E-7E as a result.
I don't think the argument was against its effectiveness, but its uniqueness. Bringing a battlecannon is no different than bringing its point equivalence in missile launchers, while previously the weapons were different enough that their point equivalence in each other still didn't do the same job.
I agree that there's some 'uniqueness' lost, but as with so many things in the change, you have balance the costs and the benefits of that system.
Realistically, you go through a whole charade of plastic markers, special dice, tape measures, agreeing with your opponent which way it moves because parallax, etc. And the end result is mostly the same...between 3-5 people hit. And in Heresy, that all becomes irrelevant anyway when all the hits are soaked by your Artificer sergeant who might be nowhere near the actual template! I agree that this sequence of events makes blast weapons 'unique', but realistically everyone just spends time spacing their models out, you go through the motions, and get pretty much the same result - a random number of hits, usually in a given range. (And, of course, there are tons of blast weapons, so it's not that unique!).
In 3ed you'd only be firing one or two of these weapons a turn, so having a weird exception sequence for Blast weapons made sense. But when you're playing Heresy armies with 5-20 of these firing each turn it's a clunky way of determining random hits!
I think the current best 8ed way of representing this is actually the Demolisher rules - if the target unit has above X models, increase the number of shots'. I think that mechanics should have been the replacement for Blast weapons in general.
Realistically, you go through a whole charade of plastic markers, special dice, tape measures, agreeing with your opponent which way it moves because parallax, etc. And the end result is mostly the same...between 3-5 people hit.
Its much more than this. If you are a player that plays against stuff like barrage templates you have to make sure you deploy accordingly. Not pack units in one place but try to spread them. Same if you want to deep strike units that are forced to be densly packed together - you have to take into account any lurking Vindicators, Flamers, etc.
In 8th edition spreading your units works only to push deep striking units away from your lines or in some cases like surrounding transports. Pushing away deep striking units is quite fun and forces the player to think (which i like) but surrounding transports you also had in 7th edition.
Also in a game where you mostly play Marines vs Marines and the whole story has a vibe of being a historical conflict its better to have more "unique" weapon rules than less.
Glumy wrote: Its much more than this. If you are a player that plays against stuff like barrage templates you have to make sure you deploy accordingly. Not pack units in one place but try to spread them. Same if you want to deep strike units that are forced to be densly packed together - you have to take into account any lurking Vindicators, Flamers, etc..
In my experience playing hordes through most of 7ed (including Heresy), this mostly translated into asking if the other player has blasts, and if he says yes, just making sure all your units were spread out all the time! Occasionally you'd be playing someone without blasts and flamer templates and you could bunch units together, but most of the time you just always make sure models in units are 2" apart. I even had a load of 2" apart movement trays for that exact reason (and enough models to spread out to deny DS even in 7ed).
So, unless you're playing a new player, I don't think it really added much in the way of tactical choice. Everyone always spreads out if they can.
In my experience playing hordes through most of 7ed (including Heresy), this mostly translated into asking if the other player has blasts, and if he says yes, just making sure all your units were spread out all the time!
Ofcourse but because you are doing it all the time doesnt convince me we should get rid of it. You still have some tacticals decisions during deployment and movement phase because of it.
I wrote a point about randomness before somewhere that its actually good (mostly if you play the same person over and over again). Its actually fun to have sometime your deep striking unit scatter 12 in random direction or perhaps your Vindicator striking point blank with his demolisher shot hitting your Terminators or something else. In 8th edition you dont have this. You always deep strike 9 inches away from the enemy and your Vindicator will never strike your own units. Yes, i know it makes the 8th edition (perhaps) more competition friendly (your units usually do what you tell them to and if not you have a reroll for 1 CP) but i believe this random effect is why there are people still playing 2nd edition where driverless vehicles drive into other vehicles with both going boom!
So if you play the same person (usually a close friend) and dont take different units all the time the game stagnates quite a lot. You use similar tactics and units do what they should do over and over again. I think i am more after the random effect to spice things up.
I would rather HH play with the 8th edition rules but the army books have more special rules to differentiate the weapons and armies. There's nothing to say that the demolisher in HH needs the same rules as a 40k demolisher which has been more of a beer and pretzels game since 3rd edition anyway.
I would actually prefer the HH armies NOT be balanced to fight other 40k armies with the 8th edition rules to make the conflict feel different. That means things like deepstriking could change, like a teleporter homer could say "Use the main 40k rules for deepstriking" but otherwise HH armies could have their own deepstrike rule.
Fajita Fan wrote: I would rather HH play with the 8th edition rules but the army books have more special rules to differentiate the weapons and armies. There's nothing to say that the demolisher in HH needs the same rules as a 40k demolisher which has been more of a beer and pretzels game since 3rd edition anyway.
I would actually prefer the HH armies NOT be balanced to fight other 40k armies with the 8th edition rules to make the conflict feel different. That means things like deepstriking could change, like a teleporter homer could say "Use the main 40k rules for deepstriking" but otherwise HH armies could have their own deepstrike rule.
They could, but one of the draws of it in 7th was I could play against my friends with it when I couldn't find a HH game, now I can't.
Sir Heckington wrote: They could, but one of the draws of it in 7th was I could play against my friends with it when I couldn't find a HH game, now I can't.
I see this a lot.
While it's true that not all the units are fieldable in 40k, I haven't had too many problems playing my 30k army as their equivalent chapter/legion in 40k. A marine is a marine is a marine. Mingle some heavy and special weapons in, you have 40ktac squads. Outriders are still Bikes. Terminators are still terminators (cataphractii and tartaros are still options in 40k), consuls and praetors can become lieutenants and captains. Etc.
Sir Heckington wrote: They could, but one of the draws of it in 7th was I could play against my friends with it when I couldn't find a HH game, now I can't.
I see this a lot.
While it's true that not all the units are fieldable in 40k, I haven't had too many problems playing my 30k army as their equivalent chapter/legion in 40k. A marine is a marine is a marine. Mingle some heavy and special weapons in, you have 40ktac squads. Outriders are still Bikes. Terminators are still terminators (cataphractii and tartaros are still options in 40k), consuls and praetors can become lieutenants and captains. Etc.
Yes, but you lose the depth of rules and feel of the armies.
Also, cataphractii and tartaros are not options for my IW/IM, who would be played as CSM/RnH.
The legion and chapter rules in 40k are pretty lame, and I still wana use my guys as they are in 30k.
I love inferno despite its glaring issues, but the more time passes without real news of the HH I fear the project started to die with Allan Bligh and 8th.
I kind of agree with OP, We're probably going to still see Angelus but I don't think anything after that unless someone seriously reignites the fire at FW.
Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."
Just how far off in points are 7th ed vanilla 40k marines from the HH Crusade points? How much of what's been updated to 8th could be ported to the HH without a TON of effort?
Fajita Fan wrote: Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."
Just how far off in points are 7th ed vanilla 40k marines from the HH Crusade points? How much of what's been updated to 8th could be ported to the HH without a TON of effort?
Well there are some companies that work with their fanbase at least by promoting modifications. There are even some modifications that become official games later because theyre more popular than the base game itself - like Counter Strike.
Now i know its too much to ask from GW or FW but it would be great if they took some fanbase modifications like the one Arbitorlan is making and call it at least semi-official. I dont think GW will ever cross this line of cooperation. Too bad.
Sir Heckington wrote:The legion and chapter rules in 40k are pretty lame, and I still wana use my guys as they are in 30k.
Fajita Fan wrote:Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."
I’ve not mentioned the project here, but since a few people seem to be unaware of it, there is currently a big ‘Heresy 8ed’ project running which has full rules for all Legions, plus Crusade Imperialis. It’s a fan project, so not ideal, but it’s a large group of people all feeding in to a ‘Community Version’ of the rules (which get updated every four months or so). There’s a Dakka thread for feedback on here, but the main project is hosted on the Heresy 30k forums,
The initial work did take a couple of months, but mostly since then it’s been occasional updates. It’s certainly the sort of thing the FW team could do in the same time period (it’s their full-time job after all!).
We will get Angelus and then dark angels, and that’s it I think, the game will likely then port over to the 8th/9th Ruleset, hope I’m wrong though as I really don’t see 8th being able to handle HH I’m the same manner, too much of the flavour will be lost
Sir Heckington wrote:The legion and chapter rules in 40k are pretty lame, and I still wana use my guys as they are in 30k.
Fajita Fan wrote:Seriously, given GW's resources and their current pace of releases I feel like they could knock out an 8th edition index codex for HH in a couple of months. Does it need to be perfect? No, that's one thing that's going to keep selling Chapter Approved each year: "Buy a new book that fixes our previous mistakes."
I’ve not mentioned the project here, but since a few people seem to be unaware of it, there is currently a big ‘Heresy 8ed’ project running which has full rules for all Legions, plus Crusade Imperialis. It’s a fan project, so not ideal, but it’s a large group of people all feeding in to a ‘Community Version’ of the rules (which get updated every four months or so). There’s a Dakka thread for feedback on here, but the main project is hosted on the Heresy 30k forums,
The initial work did take a couple of months, but mostly since then it’s been occasional updates. It’s certainly the sort of thing the FW team could do in the same time period (it’s their full-time job after all!).
The real future or not of 30k, is staying with whatever current edition of the 40k rules system is being used in my opinion.
Most people play mostly one game with some side games, no-one really wants to play 8th edition rules most of the time for 40k, and then have to switch to a different rules system to play 30k.
The other massive negative is that since 8th edition has made GW tons of money you can easily see that staff and money for 30k projects has been reduced, thus another negative for 30k/7th edition.
As well since 30k didn't go full 8th edition many of us now have models that cant be used in both systems that we used to be able to, which is highly annoying as its mainly due to outspoken 7th edition 30k hardliners that don't want to adjust.
Yes it sucks we bought books that our outdated if it goes to 8th edition now, I did to...but its the GW/FW business model and you can either pirate or pay for the new books they will generate and redo every year or two the way things have been going with the company.
Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...
The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.
Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...
The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.
it is for me and everyone I've tried to get into 30k(currently).
The different ruleset hurts when my friends play CWE, and Orks and dont want to collect a HH army, so I can't play with them with 7th HH rules, hence 8th HH rules.
(Why I love the fan version on here, kudos to the guys who made it)
Here’s the thing, we were told right from the start that 30k was not designed to be used with 40k, it was a separate game that shared a rulebook and it was nice to be able to play against 40k armies while it lasted, but it was inevitable that somewhere along the line something would happen to make them incompatible, if anyone bought a 30k army exclusively to play against 40k, while I feel for them, it is their own fault for ignoring forge worlds constant warnings in the black books.
On the other end of the spectrum it seems pretty clear that it will be updated to 8/9th at some point, so any of us that don’t like the rules, for whatever reason, need to understand this, we can stay with 7th or we can move over.
Formosa wrote: Here’s the thing, we were told right from the start that 30k was not designed to be used with 40k, it was a separate game that shared a rulebook and it was nice to be able to play against 40k armies while it lasted, but it was inevitable that somewhere along the line something would happen to make them incompatible, if anyone bought a 30k army exclusively to play against 40k, while I feel for them, it is their own fault for ignoring forge worlds constant warnings in the black books.
On the other end of the spectrum it seems pretty clear that it will be updated to 8/9th at some point, so any of us that don’t like the rules, for whatever reason, need to understand this, we can stay with 7th or we can move over.
Horus heresy is too much of a cash cow to squat.
We were told from the start that Heresy was ‘an expansion’ to 40k. That’s how Alan Bligh used to refer to it.
We were also told that using the Age of Darkness army lists against 40k army lists wasn't intended; it was at best a loophole that wasn't worth closing. It was an "expansion" in that it allowed you to play in a different time period of the setting, not one that added new forces to the existing time period. At no point did anyone say "this is designed so that you can use Sons of Horus against a Tyranid army".
AndrewGPaul wrote: We were also told that using the Age of Darkness army lists against 40k army lists wasn't intended; it was at best a loophole that wasn't worth closing. It was an "expansion" in that it allowed you to play in a different time period of the setting, not one that added new forces to the existing time period. At no point did anyone say "this is designed so that you can use Sons of Horus against a Tyranid army".
Yep, In plain speak it goes like this
“Hi, can I use my heresy army in 40k?”
Forge world “weeeeeelllll you caaan, but it’s not really intended or designed for that, so middle through any issues as best you can”
Well the biggest issue now is that the rules are no longer compatible, so fans made their own adhering to the original spirit of “middle through it as best you can”.
And those home brew rules, while not perfect (pretty good though) are gaining traction, they even allowed them at a recent tournament I played in, not a single patron complained and no one seemed to have an issue with it.
Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...
The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.
For you maybe, for others it’s an issue. GW will follow the $$$ and if they want HH to survive and 8th really is their future then HH will need to evolve. I never liked the 7th Ed rules during my first read through and I honestly played more AoS and Xwing.
To each their own but I do think HH would be improved by using the 8th Ed rules while using more complex codex rules and Rites of War force org modifications. They might also just wait for 9th edition since it seems like we’ve gone through a few recently.
Most people play multiple games, and know multiple rules. I play 40K, 30K, and Team Yankee. Nearly everyone in my community plays 40K, and some other table top game, whether is Yankee, Star Wars, Infinity, etc...
The different rule set is NOT a significant detractor.
For you maybe, for others it’s an issue. GW will follow the $$$ and if they want HH to survive and 8th really is their future then HH will need to evolve. I never liked the 7th Ed rules during my first read through and I honestly played more AoS and Xwing.
To each their own but I do think HH would be improved by using the 8th Ed rules while using more complex codex rules and Rites of War force org modifications. They might also just wait for 9th edition since it seems like we’ve gone through a few recently.
8th cannot handle HH as it is though, a lot of the character comes through in rites, legion rules and special units/characters, you lose that when you drop iniciative (emperors children), flatten the WS/BS so all characters are WS2+ BS2+, thats the primarchs ALL "dumbed down", lack of USR's, the list goes on, if the fan book is anything to go by then its pretty clear that most if not all of the flavour is lost in a port to 8th.
I get that people like 8ths "simplicity" though, and I get that they want to play their HH army against 8th armies, but frankly I dont care, as they have amply shown me through many many forums that they dont care that us 30k players prefer 7th, and be under no illusions that 30k players DO prefer 7th, I have done the poling myself and seen this, on sites such as dakka (primary 40k) they want 8th, on primary 30k sites they want 7th, polled 40k for grown ups and several other FB groups too, it showed clearly that 30kers want 7th (or 1st HH as it was later called).
Imagine if 30k players kept whining that they want 8th players to switch over to 7th all the time so they could get more games, despite being a smaller group within the whole, thats some of the 40k players playing 30k
A lot of the granularity of the primarchs can be handled by codex rules and not necessary rulebook rules. I’m also not in favor of balancing HH with other 8th edition armies, just using a compatible rule set to grow the game.
Let me put it for you this way: despite your scientific polls about which rule set your friends prefer the company itself isn’t concerned with that, they’re concerned with sales. If sales of HH stuff doesn’t grow it either evolves or goes away and look what they did to prices recently. Primarchs cost something like $30 more after the currency change, how is that going to grow sales?
With the main game designer passing and GW seeing better sales after simplifying the rules the writing might be on the wall whether your group likes it or not. There were plenty of people at my store saying they were going to stay with Fantasy rules when AoS came out and I haven’t seen a movement tray in years.
The fan rules look decent and I should actually get in a 30k- 8th edition game in with them this coming week.
However fan rules usually are not allowed in tournaments- thus the need for official 8th ed rules for the 30k stuff. In 7th edition I was able to play my 30k forces in events without issue...was I playing at a disadvantage to 40k formation spam in 7th- yes but it was enjoyable and allowed me to use the armies I had spent a lot of time and money on.
Wargaming is still a smallish hobby in the grand scheme of the world and economies of scale. Thus dividing communities is always a negative to both income for the company and enjoyability of the game system for the players. As dividing the player base makes it more difficult to find other people to play against.
It really makes no sense for GW/FW to keep up the pretence that 30k- 7th edition will continue into the long term and IMO is a waste of resources by the company. As next year we will prolly see a 9th edition of 40k anyway with all the FAQ updates and changes integrated into the main rules.
I also agree with the poster above that stated AoS basically killed off warhammer fantasy completely....many people still play AoS with square based units but never did I see a warhammer fantasy game played at my local stores in the USA after AoS, and only a coupld hold outs play once in awhile from what I have seen in Italy...an most the armies they play havent had battletomes released for AoS yet is probably the reason.
I played 30k forces for about 2 years solid, as I really didnt like 40k 7th edition- An I was one of those on the fence about 8th edition initially....now however I can firmly say 8th edition is just a better game overall, and as far as everyone else that I used to play 30k with....well all of them play 8th ed now instead. The biggest problem 8th edition currently has is balance of the units and they are fixing that with decently quick FAQ and Chapter approved annual releases....something FW for 30k was horrible at.
As to making primarchs and legions specific rules--can easily be done in 8th edition basically just different versions of chapter tactics and special rules. Even the different types of consuls are easy to do as they start with a standarad marine profile with 4 wounds and then change based on the consul type like in the fan rules. It really isnt that difficult just takes a decent game designer a little time and thought to do.
Once you have a system building and modifying stuff for that system really isnt tough to do, balancing is the toughest part and the 40k point tweaks/balancing have gone a long way forward on that front.
As someone who didn't get back into 40k until 8th edition, I'm pretty bummed about the current state of Horus Heresy. The models and lore are awesome, but I can't bring myself to invest in what looks like a dying game from a newcomer perspective.
I kept all of my Fantasy movement trays and all of my armies on square bases and yet AoS - while simpler than 8th or 7th - is a fun (albeit) different game. More people are playing AoS which is good.
The same will happen when - not if - HH evolves. A more complex rule system with wonky wound allocation and multiple modes for fliers isn’t better, it’s just more complex. 8th is by no means perfect but it trimmed some of the stuff that annoyed me about 7th. Simpler isn’t worse and the codices can introduce all kinds of special rules, equipment, and characters.
A primarch hits other models on a 3+, in a new version primarchs can just say they hit on a 3+ or even 2+ which bypasses the normal rules. Alpha Legion can have special infiltrate deployments, IW can get additional tank hunting rules, WE can get extra hand to hand modifiers, etc. There’s nothing to say that HH army books have to be simple using 8th or even 9th edition rules, just standardize the rules to help grow the game because the new astronomical prices for FW resin certainly won’t help that!
Fajita Fan wrote: I kept all of my Fantasy movement trays and all of my armies on square bases and yet AoS - while simpler than 8th or 7th - is a fun (albeit) different game. More people are playing AoS which is good.
The same will happen when - not if - HH evolves. A more complex rule system with wonky wound allocation and multiple modes for fliers isn’t better, it’s just more complex. 8th is by no means perfect but it trimmed some of the stuff that annoyed me about 7th. Simpler isn’t worse and the codices can introduce all kinds of special rules, equipment, and characters.
A primarch hits other models on a 3+, in a new version primarchs can just say they hit on a 3+ or even 2+ which bypasses the normal rules. Alpha Legion can have special infiltrate deployments, IW can get additional tank hunting rules, WE can get extra hand to hand modifiers, etc. There’s nothing to say that HH army books have to be simple using 8th or even 9th edition rules, just standardize the rules to help grow the game because the new astronomical prices for FW resin certainly won’t help that!
Yep I agree 7th needs trimming, but not on the level of 8th, throwing the baby out with the bath water is plain bad.
its not just primarchs it ALL characters, 8th has screwed up characters royally with some of the worst mechanics 40k has ever seen, bubbles are worse than joining units, targeting rules are worse, stat lines are all basically the same.
for example
Angron WS+2 BS2+
Lorgar WS 2+ BS2+
Bob the random Praetor WS2+ BS2+
its boring as hell, just like 8th, and yes I know this is purely subjective and im not pretending otherwise, you guys like 8th, I think its average bordering on terrible... exactly the same as 7th, biggest difference to me is this, 7th has more rules that I like, 8th doesnt, no terrain rules/cover, no vehicle facings, still has bloody awful psyker rules (when have they got this right for 40k to be fair), everything dies to a fart in the breeze, still horribly balanced etc. etc.
8th isnt better, its different
In the interest of fairness though I must say the things I like about 8th, mobility of units, tanks etc. reserves, degrading tanks etc. T value for all vehicles... its a bit janky but I like it, if they ported the good stuff to HH I would be a happy camper
I started in third edition and during my first game against a Vehicle Parking Lot list I asked why didn’t vehicles just have a high toughness and armor save like a rolling monstrous creature and was told that would be stupid.
I don’t mind bubbles but I miss characters joining units. From what I understand it was to prevent Death Star units that caused balance issues and monobuild lists. When you have 3,972 codicies these days and every player whining about their balance it felt like they scaled everything back to start the balancing act over again.
Games like this will always be rock, paper, scissors but as a fluff gamer I always try taking fluffy lists anyway. I’d rather play a scenario than a tournament game any day of the week and I’d love to see the HH setting grow.
Fajita Fan wrote: I started in third edition and during my first game against a Vehicle Parking Lot list I asked why didn’t vehicles just have a high toughness and armor save like a rolling monstrous creature and was told that would be stupid.
I don’t mind bubbles but I miss characters joining units. From what I understand it was to prevent Death Star units that caused balance issues and monobuild lists. When you have 3,972 codicies these days and every player whining about their balance it felt like they scaled everything back to start the balancing act over again.
Games like this will always be rock, paper, scissors but as a fluff gamer I always try taking fluffy lists anyway. I’d rather play a scenario than a tournament game any day of the week and I’d love to see the HH setting grow.
Yeah I remember them saying that about the bubbles, that’s why I think it’s such a spectacular failure, now I have 4 Death Stars around a couple of characters, rather than 1.
Interesting point though, did you know HH already has bubble abilities ala 8th?
I bought 2 Calth boxes and a Prospero box to start either AL or IW and then when I realized they weren’t going to use the upcoming 8th Ed rules they’ve sat in a box ever since. I have a gazillion other projects including AT, blood bowl, and enough 40k and fantasy to shake a stick at.
Fajita Fan wrote: I bought 2 Calth boxes and a Prospero box to start either AL or IW and then when I realized they weren’t going to use the upcoming 8th Ed rules they’ve sat in a box ever since. I have a gazillion other projects including AT, blood bowl, and enough 40k and fantasy to shake a stick at.
I really love the setting though.
Haha I have the same issue with too much stuff and not enough time, however my Dark Angels are on hold now due to removal of the upgrade squads and pushing back of the book, got to admit I was a little pissed when they dropped dark angels as the next book after stating it would be dark angels, blood angels and white scars.
After I stripped my Deathwing - I didn’t like how my white came out - I got them ready for paint and they took Deathwing as an army out of the game. Now I have to do them as Vanguard formations (along with my Sanguinary Guard) so that saps my interest in finishing them.
I did a full 3rd edition style 13th Company army (with chaos armor mixed in) and wanted to get a Leman Russ to turn it into another HH army but now primarchs are $117 US after the currency change.
If you have a group of players that only want to play 30k 7th ed then play 30k 7th ed...the rules for most of the legions are done and well the rules in effect haven't changed in years.
To me many of the 7th edition rules are total garbage and when FW had a chance to fix them they basically did nothing but reprint the 7th edition rule book and try to sell it again to people.
The way psykers work is much better and more fair in 8th edition because the other side can attempt to dispell if they have a psyker in range.....as well wounds/toughness for vehicles is a much better effect IMO than certain vehicle armies being impossible to beat if you dont bring lots of heavy wpns in 30k 7th ed.
I would even say doing away with templates is a huge rules change for the better...no debating on template movement/placement....esp with quad mortars....or wpns with lots of template shots.
To me there is virtually nothing in 7th Ed that is better than 8th as far as play goes. Even the vehicle shooting rules are more or less better.....because you have to realize the game uses an abstract space system....a 28mm miniature only shooting 24" is a game system of abstracting the distance. So to me vehicles being able to shoot if a part of the vehicle can see makes sense because the games distance and space measurements are abstract meaning the vehicles just occupies that approx space in the theoretical battlefield. Many, if not most games use this concept now.
To get a realistic measurements for range and space occupation in a wargame you really have to got back to playing like 1:285 or 1:300 size miniatures.
Eh, there are some people who say that 7th is more complex (I use the word “bloated” myself) and therefore it’s more grownup. I just don’t think “complex” is necessarily better.
The great thing about the HH moves on to the newer rules is that 7th Ed diehards who love holding templates over models and rolling dice can still do it! You can keep the old books, old lists, and all of the mechanics you love while at the same time hopefully growing the game with the newer ruleset.
That would mean a dead rule set without any further official improvements. I'm glad they stated HH is staying 7th.
And I could say exactly the same to those who want HH to turn 8th: why don't you just play this unofficial conversion to 8th and be happy about it?
For the same reason I like that companies keep designing new cell phones, TVs, cars, game rules, etc. Carburetors are more complex to maintain daily than fuel injectors and many people prefer them but we should all be glad the industry moved on.
CragHack wrote: That would mean a dead rule set without any further official improvements. I'm glad they stated HH is staying 7th. And I could say exactly the same to those who want HH to turn 8th: why don't you just play this unofficial conversion to 8th and be happy about it?
Because it's not official, and therefore players are less likely to want to use it. I have to convince people to play with me. It's the same as if I created my entire own ruleset for 40k, I'd have to convince people that my ruleset is good enough to play, if FW just released an 8th HH version, it'd be good.
Then again, FW cant balance gak and it'd probably be a terrible mess.
You might like 7th, but well its a bad ruleset. It's bloated, its rules lead to unnecessary arguments. Does 8th have issues? For sure, tons, but its better, it just needs refining and some changes.
CragHack wrote: That would mean a dead rule set without any further official improvements. I'm glad they stated HH is staying 7th.
And I could say exactly the same to those who want HH to turn 8th: why don't you just play this unofficial conversion to 8th and be happy about it?
Because it's not official, and therefore players are less likely to want to use it. I have to convince people to play with me. It's the same as if I created my entire own ruleset for 40k, I'd have to convince people that my ruleset is good enough to play, if FW just released an 8th HH version, it'd be good.
Then again, FW cant balance gak and it'd probably be a terrible mess.
You might like 7th, but well its a bad ruleset. It's bloated, its rules lead to unnecessary arguments. Does 8th have issues? For sure, tons, but its better, it just needs refining and some changes.
Yep it’s not official but that’s your hang up, I’ve been using house rules for decades and so has nearly everyone I know, as long as the rules are good, people generally don’t care.... generally.
Yep FW has had issues with balance but on the whole they have been better than the main studio, polished turd is still a turd though.
8th is not better, it’s different, 7th has glaring issues and so does 8th, both having utterly terrible psychic phases springs to mind, 8ths homogeneous nature also removing a lot of the flavour and now everything is “samey”, no cover rules worth a damn, movement phase being a complete joke due to shooting being king, but that’s getting better, deep strike is laughable as it’s so accurate now that zero thought is required, 8th did well in certain areas and went too far in others, it’s a bad rule set for heresy, with 7th being only slightly better.
Try to look at both sets of rules objectively and then apply heresy to them, if your being honest you will see that 8ths overly simplistic rules do not fit well, so much would be lost for little to no gain as has happened with every single 40k army that shifted over.
CragHack wrote: That would mean a dead rule set without any further official improvements. I'm glad they stated HH is staying 7th. And I could say exactly the same to those who want HH to turn 8th: why don't you just play this unofficial conversion to 8th and be happy about it?
Because it's not official, and therefore players are less likely to want to use it. I have to convince people to play with me. It's the same as if I created my entire own ruleset for 40k, I'd have to convince people that my ruleset is good enough to play, if FW just released an 8th HH version, it'd be good.
Then again, FW cant balance gak and it'd probably be a terrible mess.
You might like 7th, but well its a bad ruleset. It's bloated, its rules lead to unnecessary arguments. Does 8th have issues? For sure, tons, but its better, it just needs refining and some changes.
Yep it’s not official but that’s your hang up, I’ve been using house rules for decades and so has nearly everyone I know, as long as the rules are good, people generally don’t care.... generally.
Yep FW has had issues with balance but on the whole they have been better than the main studio, polished turd is still a turd though.
8th is not better, it’s different, 7th has glaring issues and so does 8th, both having utterly terrible psychic phases springs to mind, 8ths homogeneous nature also removing a lot of the flavour and now everything is “samey”, no cover rules worth a damn, movement phase being a complete joke due to shooting being king, but that’s getting better, deep strike is laughable as it’s so accurate now that zero thought is required, 8th did well in certain areas and went too far in others, it’s a bad rule set for heresy, with 7th being only slightly better.
Try to look at both sets of rules objectively and then apply heresy to them, if your being honest you will see that 8ths overly simplistic rules do not fit well, so much would be lost for little to no gain as has happened with every single 40k army that shifted over.
FW isn't better, my Renegades and heretics book proves exactly that.
7th's issues are issues with the core rules. 8th's are more easily fixed. CA just showed more cover rules, melee needs to become more effective, yes, but almost every edition has had that issue.
Deepstrike is terrible in both 7th and 8th. 7th had random deepstrike, which is something that shouldn't be random, ever. 8th just gives you the ability to point somewhere and fire, and its terrible.
Heresy can be applied to 8th with the same exact depth through the use of interesting and unique tactics for each legion. That is where 8th falls short the most. The army customization is abysmal.
For example, Iron hands legion tactics could be:
6+ FNP, No penalty to moving and firing heavy weapons, +1 to all rolls made for repair. Before an IRON HANDS unit advances, charges, or falls back, it must make a LD test. (2d6>LD)
That creates an interesting army, and when you factor in things like unique units, weapons and Ferrus, you can get an army that would play vastly different than any other. It'd keep the 'flavour' of the HH, while using the 8th ruleset.
The flavour has been lost through the loss of things such as formations. (which are coming back) 8th edition as a core is simpler, and better for HH than 7th will ever be. 7th is killing HH, that's what its doing.
CragHack wrote: That would mean a dead rule set without any further official improvements. I'm glad they stated HH is staying 7th.
And I could say exactly the same to those who want HH to turn 8th: why don't you just play this unofficial conversion to 8th and be happy about it?
Because it's not official, and therefore players are less likely to want to use it. I have to convince people to play with me. It's the same as if I created my entire own ruleset for 40k, I'd have to convince people that my ruleset is good enough to play, if FW just released an 8th HH version, it'd be good.
Then again, FW cant balance gak and it'd probably be a terrible mess.
You might like 7th, but well its a bad ruleset. It's bloated, its rules lead to unnecessary arguments. Does 8th have issues? For sure, tons, but its better, it just needs refining and some changes.
So if FW moved HH to 8th, many 7th fans would feel the same how you feel now - they, most likely, would not want to play an unsupported setting any more. And, since probably many HH players dislike 8th for what it is (I mean, that's a general trend from what I've heard), they would be left with no other options (but to play a dead setting or more to a setting they dislike), while supporters of 8th would have both settings. Even though you can use the majority of HH units right now in your 8th games So why not make it even?
Regarding "bad ruleset". Well, that's just like your opinion, man I love it. And quite a few 7th players loved it too, but they just quit overall, because Heresy is too expensive for them and they don't want to play 8th and 7th is dead for them. And, trust me, I've seen a lot of arguing going on 8th edition games too. Maybe even more, to be honest.
CragHack wrote: That would mean a dead rule set without any further official improvements. I'm glad they stated HH is staying 7th.
And I could say exactly the same to those who want HH to turn 8th: why don't you just play this unofficial conversion to 8th and be happy about it?
Because it's not official, and therefore players are less likely to want to use it. I have to convince people to play with me. It's the same as if I created my entire own ruleset for 40k, I'd have to convince people that my ruleset is good enough to play, if FW just released an 8th HH version, it'd be good.
Then again, FW cant balance gak and it'd probably be a terrible mess.
You might like 7th, but well its a bad ruleset. It's bloated, its rules lead to unnecessary arguments. Does 8th have issues? For sure, tons, but its better, it just needs refining and some changes.
So if FW moved HH to 8th, many 7th fans would feel the same how you feel now - they, most likely, would not want to play an unsupported setting any more. And, since probably many HH players dislike 8th for what it is (I mean, that's a general trend from what I've heard), they would be left with no other options (but to play a dead setting or more to a setting they dislike), while supporters of 8th would have both settings. Even though you can use the majority of HH units right now in your 8th games So why not make it even?
Regarding "bad ruleset". Well, that's just like your opinion, man I love it. And quite a few 7th players loved it too, but they just quit overall, because Heresy is too expensive for them and they don't want to play 8th and 7th is dead for them. And, trust me, I've seen a lot of arguing going on 8th edition games too. Maybe even more, to be honest.
There isn't anything to argue about that you couldn't argue about in 7th. But what I wish they would do is finish 7th HH, I'm fine with letting you guys have the options to play that way. Get the final primarchs out, and heck even support it with occasional FAQs (After all the legions get their stuff not much else major is needed), then they can work on 8th HH. I want as many people to be able to enjoy it as possible. Is this a pipe dream? Yes, yes it is. Forgeworld can hardly support one functioning ruleset.
FW isn't better, my Renegades and heretics book proves exactly that.
They were fine when they came out, a bit weak if anything, time has not been kind to them and they are still quite weak, one unit got spammed badly at the start of 8th, but got nerfed into oblivion, so meh, lets see over the years how many units GW main has screwed up.... if you have a week
7th's issues are issues with the core rules. 8th's are more easily fixed. CA just showed more cover rules, melee needs to become more effective, yes, but almost every edition has had that issue.
8th is much easier to fix because GW gives a damn now, thats not a core rule issue its a apathy one, if were playing "what if" then 7th would have been a perfect ruleset if it had had chapter approved.
Deepstrike is terrible in both 7th and 8th. 7th had random deepstrike, which is something that shouldn't be random, ever. 8th just gives you the ability to point somewhere and fire, and its terrible.
Risk/Reward is why 7th DS was better, the reserves roll was the main issue, I dont think it was needed in addition to risky DS, but I lived with it.
Heresy can be applied to 8th with the same exact depth through the use of interesting and unique tactics for each legion. That is where 8th falls short the most. The army customization is abysmal.
No it cant, its clearly apparent a lot of the rules are totally incompatible, removal of key stat lines and over simplifying of the rules has created this issue, you would end up with Emperors children basically being identical to the chaos marine counterparts with the same rules.
For example, Iron hands legion tactics could be:
6+ FNP, No penalty to moving and firing heavy weapons, +1 to all rolls made for repair.
Before an IRON HANDS unit advances, charges, or falls back, it must make a LD test. (2d6>LD)
and that is nothing like the -1 to str of enemy shooting, now does it buff high AV/Toughness vehicles and is pretty much identical to the 40k counterpart.
That creates an interesting army, and when you factor in things like unique units, weapons and Ferrus, you can get an army that would play vastly different than any other. It'd keep the 'flavour' of the HH, while using the 8th ruleset.
No it creates an army that functions the same as its 40k counterpart and has lost a lot of its flavour
The flavour has been lost through the loss of things such as formations. (which are coming back) 8th edition as a core is simpler, and better for HH than 7th will ever be. 7th is killing HH, that's what its doing.
every metric I have seen shows HH is growing we have more people coming to HH tournaments and nights than ever before, You tubers have also done polls across the board and show this to be the case, HH is growing, not dieing, that is what the non 30k players keep saying and its wrong.
Formations are the thing that ruined 7th 40k, wanting them back is crazy on all kinds of levels.
8th edition at its core is not simpler, its different, the rules are spread out all over the place, making armies for a normal game means you have to jump to several points in a codex, rather than having them right there on the sheet, there is 3 ways of playing the game, each worse than the last and only one really gets played, you have several rules that are basically the same but have different names to add to confusion (7th did this too but nowhere near as bad), every character is basically the same.
8th cannot handle 30k properly, it would become a shadow of its former self just like 8th 40k has become
Agree to disagree then. It's clear we both have differing views on the matter. Good luck to you with HH, and wherever they go with it, I only hope that it stays alive.
Formosa wrote: No it cant, its clearly apparent a lot of the rules are totally incompatible, removal of key stat lines and over simplifying of the rules has created this issue, you would end up with Emperors children basically being identical to the chaos marine counterparts with the same rules.
Legion rules can be made unique with tricky and fluffy stratagems. I do not trust FW to balance it well though.
Formations are the thing that ruined 7th 40k, wanting them back is crazy on all kinds of levels.
Yeah formations were kind of bad. They can be done right if they bring some small buffs and fluffy options not giving you huuuuge benefits.
8th cannot handle 30k properly, it would become a shadow of its former self just like 8th 40k has become
It can, it can as i already said with fluffy and nice stratagems. Stratagems is what gives character to the armies in 8th edition if we like it or not.
In the end i only want to play HH. It doesnt really matter to me if it is 7th or 8th. I had the most fun with the game during 4th edition when i started playing 40k so i could play this ancient edition even.
Formosa wrote: No it cant, its clearly apparent a lot of the rules are totally incompatible, removal of key stat lines and over simplifying of the rules has created this issue, you would end up with Emperors children basically being identical to the chaos marine counterparts with the same rules.
Legion rules can be made unique with tricky and fluffy stratagems. I do not trust FW to balance it well though.
Formations are the thing that ruined 7th 40k, wanting them back is crazy on all kinds of levels.
Yeah formations were kind of bad. They can be done right if they bring some small buffs and fluffy options not giving you huuuuge benefits.
8th cannot handle 30k properly, it would become a shadow of its former self just like 8th 40k has become
It can, it can as i already said with fluffy and nice stratagems. Stratagems is what gives character to the armies in 8th edition if we like it or not.
In the end i only want to play HH. It doesnt really matter to me if it is 7th or 8th. I had the most fun with the game during 4th edition when i started playing 40k so i could play this ancient edition even.
Ah, there’s the problem, stratagems are boring and uninspired but I do agree that FW likely won’t be able to do them justice, neither with GW based on all the books out so far, there are a lot of stratagems that should just be unit special rules, although they did do well by rolling the dakka dakka strat into normal ork rules so there is a silver lining I suppose.
Take iron hands as an example, currently you have the biggest ability -1 to enemy shooting str, this is across the entire army, it affects everything from making units more durable right up to raising the ID threshold, a very powerful ability and shows quite well how tough they are, much better than 6+++ FNP they have in 8th.
So if this was a strat it would have to be maximum 1cp, at the very least half incoming damage AND be -1 str to enemy shooting, What about emperors children, there is no I to buff and show their speed, so you get movement bonus and always strike first, well not they are pretty much the same as the 40k ones, so what’s the point, the list goes on, 8th lacks the granularity to handle all 18 legions and their special rules/units, some would be easier than other of course though.
Initiative could be represented by changes to pile in, like enemies can only pile in 1" and EC get extra pile in distance.
No one is saying 8th is perfect, I think the most realistic thing is that HH and 40k both move to 9th ed at the same time. It lets them both sell more rulebooks, more chapter approved, more indices, more codices, etc.
Fajita Fan wrote: Initiative could be represented by changes to pile in, like enemies can only pile in 1" and EC get extra pile in distance.
No one is saying 8th is perfect, I think the most realistic thing is that HH and 40k both move to 9th ed at the same time. It lets them both sell more rulebooks, more chapter approved, more indices, more codices, etc.
People are saying that though dude, thankfully not here really but when someone says "its better in every way" they are wilfully ignoring its shortcomings, they are doing this as they are generally 40k players that bought or want to buy a HH army to play 40k and hey.. its their money, who am I to deny them this, but on the flip side why are they to try and push for something the actual 30k players dont want, I know I will be accused of using a "no true scotsman" fallacy but they are not actual 30k players so why should we listen to their opinion?
When doing my polls and seeing others that have been done by you tubers, it was disheartened to find out that a large majority of people calling for a change in HH HAD NOT EVER PLAYED IT, they just look at the mess of 7th 40k and assume its the exact same thing with the same issues, this is pretty much why I push back against these people, they are demanding we change to suit their needs when they are not even part of the community.
with all that being said though, your right, it will likely change over around 9th, its also possible that the HH rulebook really is HH 1st ed and they will continue to work with that ruleset and refine it (please for the love of god sort out the psy phase... and 8ths too.. it also sucks), but I find that unlikely.
As I said before in an ideal world they would take the good stuff from 8th and make a hybrid ruleset, but thats asking far too much of GW/FW.
People are saying that though dude, thankfully not here really but when someone says "its better in every way" they are wilfully ignoring its shortcomings, they are doing this as they are generally 40k players that bought or want to buy a HH army to play 40k and hey.. its their money, who am I to deny them this, but on the flip side why are they to try and push for something the actual 30k players dont want, I know I will be accused of using a "no true scotsman" fallacy but they are not actual 30k players so why should we listen to their opinion?
A few points, watching the last few pages:
- There aren't many people saying that 8ed is 'better in every way'. There are a lot of people saying it's better, because they've played both and think it's better. Nobody is suggesting it's perfect.
- When you criticise elements of 8ed you tend to do it in absolutes, like there's no argument. You say 'X is just boring', 'X is the wrong way to do this', 'X is less interesting'. These might be your opinions, but they're not fact. There are loads of people who disagree and find, say, chapter differences in 40k 8ed absolutely fine. You might have different opinion, but you're not 'right'.
- I know anecdotal evidence says that, in areas with a lots of concentrated people and good transport, Heresy tournaments are still very popular. The UK is ok, the Bay Area is fine, massive hobby events still have more Heresy tournaments than ever. But anecdotal evidence also speaks of loads of people putting down 30k either because they live in small towns and the scene has gone, because their club moved over to 8ed, because they simply prefer 8ed and felt let down when FW changed it's mind, or because they used to play their 40k opponents. It's 18 months later so those people won't be posting on Heresy forums and threads nearly as much - I know my Heresy interaction has gone down despite it being my favourite setting. To say those people aren't 'true' Heresy players is a bit insulting, and to say 'polls on forums still mostly frequented by people who like 7ed more show that people like 7ed more' is a bit silly. FW should listen to their opinion because it's a large group of gamers saying they would play Heresy and buy Heresy if that change was made. They have to weigh that against how many customers they think they'd lose by switching to 8ed, and how many new players they'd attract.
FW/GW at this point care about growth of sales/profit, not the satisfaction of people who’ve already invested thousands in the hobby. They are not going to stay with 7th because polls have indicated that HH players like their current rulebook, they will want to sell you a new rulebook and make the game more attractive to newer players. Plastic MK3 and MK4 were the beginning of that (and hooked me) so they will look for ways to attract more people.
- There aren't many people saying that 8ed is 'better in every way'. There are a lot of people saying it's better, because they've played both and think it's better. Nobody is suggesting it's perfect.
I already pointed that out, so were in agreement here.
- When you criticise elements of 8ed you tend to do it in absolutes, like there's no argument. You say 'X is just boring', 'X is the wrong way to do this', 'X is less interesting'. These might be your opinions, but they're not fact. There are loads of people who disagree and find, say, chapter differences in 40k 8ed absolutely fine. You might have different opinion, but you're not 'right'.
Thats because I am right, I am not one of those people that is shy about admitting that I know a subject better than another person, call it a personality fault if you want. So yes when I say that 8th cannot handle the granularity that is needed for HH then its a fact, one needs only to look at the respective rulebooks to see this is a fact, large chunks of rules that are needed to keep the theme and feel of HH as it stand now simply do not exist within 8th, any shift would reduce the rules as 8th was intended to do, a lot of 40k armies took a hit in theme due to 8th, there is no reason to assume HH would not take the exact same hit.
I understand I am being very matter of fact about this but thats the way I am, again, call it a personality fault if you like.
- I know anecdotal evidence says that, in areas with a lots of concentrated people and good transport, Heresy tournaments are still very popular. The UK is ok, the Bay Area is fine, massive hobby events still have more Heresy tournaments than ever. But anecdotal evidence also speaks of loads of people putting down 30k either because they live in small towns and the scene has gone, because their club moved over to 8ed, because they simply prefer 8ed and felt let down when FW changed it's mind, or because they used to play their 40k opponents. It's 18 months later so those people won't be posting on Heresy forums and threads nearly as much - I know my Heresy interaction has gone down despite it being my favourite setting. To say those people aren't 'true' Heresy players is a bit insulting, and to say 'polls on forums still mostly frequented by people who like 7ed more show that people like 7ed more' is a bit silly. FW should listen to their opinion because it's a large group of gamers saying they would play Heresy and buy Heresy if that change was made. They have to weigh that against how many customers they think they'd lose by switching to 8ed, and how many new players they'd attract.
Everything I stated was factual, you may not like or agree with it but that does not matter, as for the "true heresy players" comment.
"why are they to try and push for something the actual 30k players dont want, I know I will be accused of using a "no true scotsman" fallacy but they are not actual 30k players so why should we listen to their opinion?"
I am reposting it as you clearly need to read it again, its very clear I am talking about 40k players that dont even play HH, so again, why should we be forced to change to suit people who dont even play the game, so given that HH is growing then it seems FW made the right choice by not switching, as before I do still fully expect a change to come in the future though.
To be fair I think the opinion “I’m not investing hundreds in a HH army until they use an updated ruleset” is a totally valid opinion in a thread that asks opinions about the future of the HH system.
It’s totally fair for you to like the armybooks and rulebooks you’ve already purchased. It’s totally fair to enjoy 7th with its myriad of problems and be resistant to 8th with its issues like granularity between models.
On my shelf I have a 3rd, 4th, 5th, two 6ths, and two 7th Ed rulebooks. There were things I liked and didn’t like about each edition but long ago I accepted that all of GW’s rules have built in obsolescence. HH *will* move on and many people like me won’t invest further until they move on whether anyone likes it or not.
What does 8E lack for in terms of granularity of rules to make HH lack that 7E has? There's a lot less special rules to memorize, but more stats available to better detail interactions.
The return of ASM's and Damage from 2E to 8E, and the allowance of stats above 10, has made units and weapons dramatically more varied and useful without needing gobs of special rules. The return of a movement stat means units can be differentiated to a much greater degree in terms of speed and not need distinct unit category types to do so.
I'm at a loss as to what in the 8E core rules prevents such granularity, unless one was just *really* into wound allocation minigames and challenges, which is not something I would consider a highlight of the 7E rules.
I always push back on the idea that 8E has less special rules to memorize than 7E. It's the same. Possibly more. They're simply not in one place, and now you're in a situation where identical rules go by two or more names across different units. Heck, any save-after-the-save mechanic is still often referred to as FNP because... well, it is.
USRs, in my opinion, are not a bad thing. Exceptions to them, and/or writing them without modularity in mind, is the problem.
obsidiankatana wrote: I always push back on the idea that 8E has less special rules to memorize than 7E. It's the same. Possibly more. They're simply not in one place, and now you're in a situation where identical rules go by two or more names across different units. Heck, any save-after-the-save mechanic is still often referred to as FNP because... well, it is.
USRs, in my opinion, are not a bad thing. Exceptions to them, and/or writing them without modularity in mind, is the problem.
I don’t think USRs were necessarily problem before, I rather liked having a consistent list of rules that units could borrow from.
Formosa wrote: [
I am reposting it as you clearly need to read it again, its very clear I am talking about 40k players that dont even play HH, so again, why should we be forced to change to suit people who dont even play the game, so given that HH is growing then it seems FW made the right choice by not switching, as before I do still fully expect a change to come in the future though.
"HH is growing" is counterfactual in terms of model availability, player count, online presence, and mindshare. What exactly is it growing?
Formosa wrote: [
I am reposting it as you clearly need to read it again, its very clear I am talking about 40k players that dont even play HH, so again, why should we be forced to change to suit people who dont even play the game, so given that HH is growing then it seems FW made the right choice by not switching, as before I do still fully expect a change to come in the future though.
"HH is growing" is counterfactual in terms of model availability, player count, online presence, and mindshare. What exactly is it growing?
Certainly not Mk2 marines, or the entire Renegades line.
obsidiankatana wrote: I always push back on the idea that 8E has less special rules to memorize than 7E. It's the same. Possibly more. They're simply not in one place, and now you're in a situation where identical rules go by two or more names across different units. Heck, any save-after-the-save mechanic is still often referred to as FNP because... well, it is.
USRs, in my opinion, are not a bad thing. Exceptions to them, and/or writing them without modularity in mind, is the problem.
I don’t think USRs were necessarily problem before, I rather liked having a consistent list of rules that units could borrow from.
Yes, the USR argument makes no sense to me. People think having hundreds of different rules spread across every codex making it near impossible for people to be aware of everything is a better, cleaner, system then having 4 pages of rules that everyone draws from, that has one single place that we can all go to, in order to reference?
Hope that link works, but for what seems the Umpteenth time, we have FW declaring that the game will not move onto 8th, and a clear majority of posters in complete agreement with them over it.
yes a faceboook posting from a year ago basically after 8th edition just launched is proof that HH in 7th edition is superior....
I would disagree.
In the end money will talk and BSFB comments will walk. Only FW and GW knows what the sales have been and my guess is that will fully dictate what they will do.
I know I for one wont buy any 7th ed HH products...and if its a unit/model only useable in 7th ed HH I wont buy it either.
I have a hard time with believing people when they say 7th edition core rules were awful, they simply arent. There are some faults yes, but the glaring reason 7th edition was not well received was due to codex creep and the ludicrous formation and detachments that totally wrecked any semblance of balance and fair play. 7th was not able to handle these crazy new implementations by GW, so they switched to an edition (8th) that could better make use of these "extra" rules and sell whole detachments of models at a time.
As for the granularity that some are talking about, statistics such as initiative, toughness, and a myriad of special rules unique to HH provide the various legions with the quirks that they need to keep them at an arms length from each other in similarity. Otherwise it would very much be 18 cases of "the marines are green so they can re-roll ones" or "these marines are dark blue so they're scary." I understand 8th has differences between Space Marine chapters, but they are on no way close to level that the HH differentiates the Legions.
8th works for what it is intended for, as does 7th with Horus Heresy. There is no need to swap HH over to 8th when it would not benefit the system as a whole.
Yes, the USR argument makes no sense to me. People think having hundreds of different rules spread across every codex making it near impossible for people to be aware of everything is a better, cleaner, system then having 4 pages of rules that everyone draws from, that has one single place that we can all go to, in order to reference?
Remind me again, which edition are you talking about here? Because i don't see a difference.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote: I have a hard time with believing people when they say 7th edition core rules were awful, they simply arent. There are some faults yes, but the glaring reason 7th edition was not well received was due to codex creep and the ludicrous formation and detachments that totally wrecked any semblance of balance and fair play. 7th was not able to handle these crazy new implementations by GW, so they switched to an edition (8th) that could better make use of these "extra" rules and sell whole detachments of models at a time.
How many editions of 40K have you played? Formations are a red herring, they're meaningless. The problems in 7th were the same problems 6th had and 5th before that, pretty much going all the way back to 3rd.
I've played since late 4th. Formation and detachments are not meaningless, they left a bad taste in many people's mouths in 7th edition. They became the focus of play and army builds be it a tournament or a friendly game. If you honestly think formations and detachments didn't impact the game on a large scale Id have to ask you a more specific version of the question you asked me, did you even play 7th?
extortionately expensive to begin with, eh!? As if they didn't see this problem coming when 
It's a tough damn sell.
