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Beastmen @ 2018/09/13 13:13:58


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


Hi all,

I am really looking forward to the new beasts of chaos codex, I have been a beasts player since start and my scrap WHFB box is full of them (have like 30 metal minatours, a few metal Shaggoths, shamans etc). Anyone ever read Soviern Stone Trilogy by Margret Weis and Tracy Hickman they will know why. Any hopes or dreams?, I really wish would remodel the bullgors they look like gak, but no new models abound. Lets pray all the models are now plastic not failcast is my one hope. I can't afford to preorder the codex (had van saar etc last week) but in a few weeks when see what happens I will maybe commit.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/13 13:21:38


Post by: auticus


You know part of me is excited to see beastmen get something new as I'm primarily and always have been a chaos player.

But damn if this alpha strike summon spam nonsense breaks my spirit. It forces you to build certain ways to have a good game and it forces your area to build "samey".

And forget about it if you are playing legacy armies, even if they have updated points. Particularly armies that can spam summoning on top of alpha strike.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/13 20:49:27


Post by: StygianBeach


Plastic Centigors would be nice.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/13 21:50:24


Post by: EnTyme


auticus wrote:
You know part of me is excited to see beastmen get something new as I'm primarily and always have been a chaos player.

But damn if this alpha strike summon spam nonsense breaks my spirit. It forces you to build certain ways to have a good game and it forces your area to build "samey".

And forget about it if you are playing legacy armies, even if they have updated points. Particularly armies that can spam summoning on top of alpha strike.


Feel like I should point out that Beasts of Chaos were a legacy army. So were the Daughters of Khaine and Legions of Nagash (as their individual factions). A lot of the old world stuff is starting to get updated.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/13 22:24:55


Post by: auticus


I know a lot of the old stuff is getting updated. There's still a ton not updated, however.

And that still doesn't solve the alpha strike spam summoning direction they've gone in which forces certain builds if you don't want to get face rolled.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/17 18:47:48


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


I for one am looking forward to this Saturday when I can get my hands on the full rules. I already had a small test game over the weekend using some of the rules. A few takeaways are bestigors are amazing now and be prepared to have the highest armor saves on the table as Beasts can just melt armor.

As far as the concerns about alpha strike, I a have always found that attempting alpha strikes in AoS to be to risky. It usually leaves your forces separated and vulnerable to counter attack, better to play the mission and avoid unnecessary combats.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/17 19:10:08


Post by: NinthMusketeer


auticus wrote:
I know a lot of the old stuff is getting updated. There's still a ton not updated, however.

And that still doesn't solve the alpha strike spam summoning direction they've gone in which forces certain builds if you don't want to get face rolled.
Beastmen cannot just come in anywhere with any unit though. There are only certain units that can come in from reserves and they come in from the edge. The potential for counterplay is much stronger.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/17 19:55:17


Post by: auticus


When I posted that, there was a thread on twitter from someone that had said they saw the book and they were saying that one of the flavors / chapters / whatever you call them could do what stormcast do and just show up 9" from the enemy.

These being people that are fairly into the tournament scene and usually up on the releases before they release (because they get the book two weeks before everyone else) I took that at face value. One of the "tactics" being discussed was basically recycling units / sacrificing units and then summoning whole new units 9" from the enemy.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/17 21:59:17


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Yeah there's one sub faction that improves the outflank, letting non-Brayherd units do it too. However that is in place of the benefits one of the other two would provide, and does come with a required command trait or artifact, though I do not remember what it is. I am not sure of the restrictions of deploying via summoning, preliminary it does not seem like their summoning is particularly strong but I will wait and see.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/18 02:23:02


Post by: Hulksmash


Beastman summoning is disruptive, not a hammer. Generally you're pulling in a chariot, 5 centigor, or a cockatrice. Something along those lines every single turn that pops up on a table edge where they are most needed. Backfield units need to be large to dissuade them.

The book feels solid to me with a good blend of different styles so everyone gets something they want.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/18 02:26:53


Post by: auticus


Any summoning is disruptive. Some summoning isn't as big a deal. Other summoning like seraphon or nagash is flat out busted.

Summoning new stuff every turn seems like it could enter the busted realm unless you are also summoning.

Therein lies my issue. *unless you are also summoning*. They are forcing certain builds.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/18 04:33:21


Post by: NinthMusketeer


So I went back and checked the reviews, supposedly summons have to come in from the board edge like ambushers. The anywhere thing is actually a command trait (or ability) for that shadow herd which lets a unit teleport. But the unit must be within 18" of the general and already more than 9" from the enemy for the ability to be used, supposedly. I wish Seraphon worked that way.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/18 08:42:37


Post by: Galas


I don't like it that much, because I don't like free summoning that much, but the new Beastmen summoning rule is the first time the actual Beastmen Ambush rule works thematically and competitively.

I know the ambush rules is different, but the "We are fighting a bigger force that can come from anywhere" is better represented by the summoning rule.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/19 19:06:28


Post by: Malathrim


Is anyone expecting/hoping for a plastic Dragon Ogor Shaggoth? I kinda think we might see one since the Dragon Ogors are plastic and new, and the Shaggoth is a pretty important wizard in the new tome. Also given that they can have a Thunderscorn allegiance, wouldn't they need a Leader too?

Can't wait til it comes out this weekend!


Beastmen @ 2018/09/19 19:15:51


Post by: Ghaz


 Malathrim wrote:
Is anyone expecting/hoping for a plastic Dragon Ogor Shaggoth? I kinda think we might see one since the Dragon Ogors are plastic and new, and the Shaggoth is a pretty important wizard in the new tome. Also given that they can have a Thunderscorn allegiance, wouldn't they need a Leader too?

Can't wait til it comes out this weekend!

Dragon Ogors are a 5+ year old kit. Not exactly what I would call 'new'.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 10:13:34


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


I bit the bullet and ordered the codex, the Herdstone (mandatory) and the endless spells (just in case)

Idk what the guy is talking about alpha strike supremacy??? (is half army in reserve turn up turn 2 table edge at the latest, if go Darkwalkers warheard/thunderstrike count as bray heard and go ambush then can use 1 command point to get 1 unit not on edge can turn up 9" away). Is ok but they reduce the effectiveness of heard stone. I am gunna play test alot but if think the summoning from this is op??, it is just a bonus (try play against Nagash...) and if think the ambush is op/summoning (lizardman are way more). I think this looks ok (is good negative to the positive)


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 11:25:40


Post by: auticus


We all have our thresholds of what we deem to be acceptable and not acceptable game design. Half of an army coming in on whatever table edge may not seem OP to you. What it is is a mechanic that forces opposing players to have to play a certain way and effectively allows the player to bypass a meaningful movement phase.

One unit coming in from a table edge would be cool. Half and now you're forcing the hand of what the opposing player can do.

The unit showing up 9" away will nearly always be a big hammer unit,which also forces the opposing player to play in a certain way.

Any mechanic that reduces the need of an effective movement phase short of "i place this here" will always be a large negative to me.

The summoning mechanic as it was related to me sounded closer to nagash with recycled units / sacrificing units to bring out other units in ambush.

Seraphon are way more. Seraphon are currently also one of the largest negative play experiences in AOS in the hands of someone that wants to powergame.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 12:30:24


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


auticus wrote:
We all have our thresholds of what we deem to be acceptable and not acceptable game design. Half of an army coming in on whatever table edge may not seem OP to you. What it is is a mechanic that forces opposing players to have to play a certain way and effectively allows the player to bypass a meaningful movement phase.

One unit coming in from a table edge would be cool. Half and now you're forcing the hand of what the opposing player can do.

The unit showing up 9" away will nearly always be a big hammer unit,which also forces the opposing player to play in a certain way.

Any mechanic that reduces the need of an effective movement phase short of "i place this here" will always be a large negative to me.

The summoning mechanic as it was related to me sounded closer to nagash with recycled units / sacrificing units to bring out other units in ambush.

Seraphon are way more. Seraphon are currently also one of the largest negative play experiences in AOS in the hands of someone that wants to powergame.


We gunna have to wait and see with a max of 5 summon points per turn (and that's with a great turn) + costs a command point, and darkwalkers which have the ambush and 9' away deploy for 1 unit, is a different battalion/heard etc I think looks more balanced than deepkin.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 15:31:37


Post by: Hulksmash


Spectral Ceramite wrote:


We gunna have to wait and see with a max of 5 summon points per turn (and that's with a great turn) + costs a command point, and darkwalkers which have the ambush and 9' away deploy for 1 unit, is a different battalion/heard etc I think looks more balanced than deepkin.


6, max of 6 if you take the artifact and roll a 4+. Essentially 120pts max per turn. Compared to an average of 120pts per turn from Seraphon if they aren't even trying.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 16:52:21


Post by: auticus


Yeah. Roughly +600 points so a 2000 point army is really 2600 points.

If you aren't also summoning alongside them, IMO don't even bother playing the game.

And yes seraphon are even worse. No argument. Last weekend during our campaign day the seraphon player brought in about 1000-1200 points worth of stuff free. Unsurprisingly between that and a double turn he won handily against a chaos army that summoned about 400 points of extra stuff.

So in reality it was a 3000/3200 point army vs a 2400 point army.

Its no surprise that the 3000/3200 point army would handily defeat the 2400 point army.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 17:10:42


Post by: Hulksmash


Auticus, I don't mean this rudely but if you're done with AoS you don't need to keep hammering at the threads. We get it, you don't like the state of the game but I hope you can find like minded people to go play KoW with as you stated was your intention when you did an I'm out post in the other thread.

For perspective solely on Beastmen summoning since I know we'll never reach an agreed place on anything else and this is mostly information as you seem to not really understand how their summoning works.

+600 points for beastmen is if you have

a) paid 120pts for a unit to hang out that doesn't lose more than 5 dudes to shooting in the course of 4 turns
b) bought a character to babysit the herdstone
c) roll a 5 or 6 for 5 straight turns
d) Play Allherd
e) Take the extra cp on 4+ relic
f) roll a 4+ for 5 turns and keep the relic bearer alive 5 turns

That's a hell of a lot of criteria to hit 600pts.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 18:01:36


Post by: auticus


Isn't that the point of optimizing an army list? Be it to fulfil one, three, or twenty pointers, optimizing an army list is about creating the army that can do all of those things or maximize the chance of doing all of those things.

The same criticism was thrown at me for going off on seraphon summoning when they released the chart before 2nd officially dropped. That you have to do all of these things to max summoning, like that was a hard thing to do and lo today we discover that that is exactly what people are doing.

I don't find it outlandish to consider that players realize that maxing summoning is a key to winning the current game and that playing armies that are maxing summoning while you don't means a short path to being squashed in many cases, so therefore I can easily see people finding the path to maximize summoning and alpha striking with beastmen and that being the defacto way it plays out.

Whether or not I want to keep playing, play other games, or am a giant fan is irrelevant to those points. And clarification: my direct quote that you are referring to stated that the changes pushed me into Kings of War territory and that these changes with GW doubling down on summoning and alpha striking were breaking my spirit (added here for additional clarity: because my local scene is dominated by summoning spam and alpha striking), not that I was quitting AOS.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 20:08:38


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I do not believe this book will be that bad. Compared to SCE or Nighthaunt reserves, or Seraphon/Legions summoning it is entirely tame on both fronts. And there is a balancing factor in outflanking units not getting herdstone benefits (they will be too far away) while summoning requires stuff stand next to the herdstone. It means that maxing out both elements will spread the army thin to gain those advantages, a trade off.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 20:11:37


Post by: Davor


I would not like Auticus to go away. I like how he gives his opinion in a well explained manner and says it's his opinion and not fact. He can only make the game better hopefully if and when GW asks why there are less people who play when they use to be heavily into it before.

Since we don't have many posts here in Dakka for AoS it might seem he does it every thread, but if you look at it the other way, he doesn't do it very much, it's just we don't get as many posting.

I find it funny we have less posts in AoS when 2.0 came out and had a busy forum when General's Handbook 2017 was out. (or was it GH2016?)


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 20:51:58


Post by: Rocmistro


I too, appreciate his posting, as it has given me much to think about whether or not I want to rebase all my dudes and/or buy into AoS as a whole. It's nice to have a full perspective of opinions.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 22:35:15


Post by: Hulksmash


auticus wrote:
Isn't that the point of optimizing an army list? Be it to fulfil one, three, or twenty pointers, optimizing an army list is about creating the army that can do all of those things or maximize the chance of doing all of those things.

The same criticism was thrown at me for going off on seraphon summoning when they released the chart before 2nd officially dropped. That you have to do all of these things to max summoning, like that was a hard thing to do and lo today we discover that that is exactly what people are doing.

I don't find it outlandish to consider that players realize that maxing summoning is a key to winning the current game and that playing armies that are maxing summoning while you don't means a short path to being squashed in many cases, so therefore I can easily see people finding the path to maximize summoning and alpha striking with beastmen and that being the defacto way it plays out.

Whether or not I want to keep playing, play other games, or am a giant fan is irrelevant to those points. And clarification: my direct quote that you are referring to stated that the changes pushed me into Kings of War territory and that these changes with GW doubling down on summoning and alpha striking were breaking my spirit (added here for additional clarity: because my local scene is dominated by summoning spam and alpha striking), not that I was quitting AOS.


My point was that it's not optimal to try for that maximum number and that even if you do then you're not going to get 600pts unless it's under the most extreme of circumstances.

As for relevance your desire pushing you away from GW and your general dislike of GW gets old man. I wouldn't be surprised if the drop off Davor mentioned is partially due to the constant negativity that you're own scene has brought about in you that you then pass on to this forum. There comes a time when constantly repeating your dislike of something just gets old. I apologize if I misread the Kings of War comment. I was suppose I jumped to the conclusion that if something was breaking your spirit you'd be done with it. Since that's the direction I'd take.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/20 22:42:36


Post by: auticus


Well... there's not much else to discuss on these forums since there are few posts to begin with. I post about a lot of things on these forums both positive and negative. Additionally there are people reading what I have to say for the first time. So my thing is... if there's a topic I have an interest in positive or negative... I'm going to post in it. You'll notice I don't really go out of my way to post new threads about the same thing though.

When I posted my initial beastman book comment that you were responding to originally, there was a fairly large size twitter conversation going on about min/maxing summoning and alpha striking and how great that was with the new beastman book from people that are typically spot on with their assessments since they get the books two weeks before anyone else, so it had already put me in a bad mood, coupled with a campaign that I had sunk a ton of hours into imploded that weekend because of game imbalance between casual lists and powergamer lists colliding yet again.

So long as I have an investment in my collection I will post in AOS forums, both positive and negatively. This isn't the TGA where they ban you for posting negatively about the game.

The fact that that echo chamber exists and the game devs hang out on there is concerning as it is since there are no dissenting or counterbalancing voices. Its all just the greatest thing ever.

As I get deeper into KOW, if my community continues to keep its momentum, you may see less and less of me posting in AOS.

On the beastmen book, having read the beastmen book now I can say that its obnoxiousness level is still fairly up there in terms of negative play experiences, a bit more than playing most of the other chaos factions, but its not as bad as facing off against the nagash dick list or the seraphon mortal wound / summoning oven of fun. If I'm competitive, I'd probably give beastmen a hard pass simply because they won't do well against the power armies... but in a casual context they run the risk of squashing their opponent if the player isn't careful. Kind of like beastclaw raiders.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 00:15:15


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


So your argument is that the book is stronger than the weak armies that are lagging behind but it is weaker than the upper crust crème de la crème armies. Isn't this a good thing. It means it makes them competitive but is drawing a line at strait power creep.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 00:36:34


Post by: auticus


My argument isn't really an argument. It was lamenting that the design studio is doubling down on free summoning and alpha striking mechanics and at the time I made my statement it was being fapped over by tournament players discussing breaking the game with the book.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 01:18:54


Post by: Galas


The only thing I disagree with is that summoning points are worth a 1:1 ratio with normal, initial points.

A 300 point unit that you summon on the last turn of the game, specially if you have deployment limitations and can't just put it on top of an objetive to win you the game (Thats very busted), that only has 1 turn to do something, is not worth the same that a unit that you have or summon the first turn.

But I still believe the only way to make "free summoning" work and have it balanced with non-summoning lists is to have special summoner units/rules and special "summonable" units. Like "This Beastmen Mutated-Shaman can summon this Giant-Spider-Bird". And you give the appropiate cost to that shaman, for him ,and for his summoning.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 02:34:54


Post by: NinthMusketeer


The free summoning works if it is compensated for on an army-wide level. For example, the allegiance abilities of Idoneth or Stormcast are really strong but those armies cannot summon. Compare to Nurgle (at 2k) where the allegiance is weak without summoning (it would just be the cycle of contagion--not that great on it's own) or FEC which have a similarly sub-par allegiance combined with high costs on the characters that do summon. Tzeentch now pays a premium on all its units to compensate for strong allegiance & summoning. Khorne summoning is a new way to spend blood tithe rather than being in addition to blood tithe. OP lists out of this group come from certain units being undercosted rather than issues with the allegiance itself.

Compare to Seraphon that had/have a very strong allegiance even if summoning is removed entirely. Legions has a similarly strong allegiance that is coupled with little restrictions on what can be in it (includes a good 3/4 of the Death alliance). Both these armies are quite powerful before summons are factored in at all.

Beastmen I see as closer to the first category. There are reserves for up to half the army, but brayherd only and 6" from the board edge only. Warherds and Thunderscorn get their little things instead, which are nice boosts but not great on their own. Beastmen also get the herdstone, a significant benefit but one that is unlikely to do anything for the reserves since they must come in round 1 and accordingly neither they nor the enemy is likely to be in range. The summoning comes as an extra tidbit on top of this, but again comes with a built in drawback that requires a hero and a sacrificial unit to be sitting on the herdstone and from the looks of it will not be bringing in that many points worth even late in the game.

So again like the above category I suspect the OP builts will come from exploiting certain units and/or artifacts/traits/abilities that get around the above drawbacks. Which is a flaw with those elements rather than the allegiance as a whole.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 05:41:58


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 11:30:55


Post by: auticus


 Galas wrote:
The only thing I disagree with is that summoning points are worth a 1:1 ratio with normal, initial points.

A 300 point unit that you summon on the last turn of the game, specially if you have deployment limitations and can't just put it on top of an objetive to win you the game (Thats very busted), that only has 1 turn to do something, is not worth the same that a unit that you have or summon the first turn.

But I still believe the only way to make "free summoning" work and have it balanced with non-summoning lists is to have special summoner units/rules and special "summonable" units. Like "This Beastmen Mutated-Shaman can summon this Giant-Spider-Bird". And you give the appropiate cost to that shaman, for him ,and for his summoning.


Sure but I consider that a waste of a summons. You won't be free summoning on the last turn just to plop units down that do nothing. They will typically always be used to contest objectives. Essentially a free unit that your opponent cannot touch that just shows up on the last turn to score. Otherwise I wouldn't even count the unit showing up if all they did was just show up in the last turn and do nothing.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 14:08:32


Post by: Jacksmiles


 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.


I had heard Mutalith and Slaughterbrute are not in the book, and the only allies are Slaves to Darkness. Do we have confirmation we can use the Mutalith?


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 14:16:23


Post by: auticus


Honestly I think they could even be argued to be worth more. A unit I summon in later in the game is a unit that you cannot touch. You can't harm it. You can't affect it in any way and additionally I don't have to maneuver them into position in many cases, I can just plop them down.

Additionally it FORCES your opponent to play a certain way to counter effectively.

Units that I summon later in the game have always had a massive impact on the game (I've been playing Nurgle all year). WHile I don't ever summon a ton, I've burned through a 16-game streak of tabling opponents of various armies through a combo of double turn and my late turn summoning to cap objectives.

It has come to the point where if I am playing someone that is not summoning, I will not summon either simply because of the weight of negative experience that it brings and drives off players.

I'm speaking at the garage table or the casual FLGS table.

Tournaments are a totally different animal. Tournaments tend to be filled with powergamers powergaming optimized lists. Garage lists and casual tables are often not.

The gulf between powergamer and non powergamer list is very wide, and summoning is part of that with 2.0.

EDIT FOR CLARITY: my browser showed a different response above mine and I was responding to that. That response is no longer there so this response looks out of place.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 14:18:26


Post by: NinthMusketeer


C'mon ya gotta know the best way is to bring a second hero, shank him till he's dead for the summon points, then he turns into a spawn cuz yer playin gavespawn, so ya shank the spawn to death after!


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 16:51:44


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


Jacksmiles wrote:
 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.


I had heard Mutalith and Slaughterbrute are not in the book, and the only allies are Slaves to Darkness. Do we have confirmation we can use the Mutalith?

Its not a matter of having to ally the Mutalith in, its part of the army, if you check the app it has the Beast of Chaos keyword.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 17:00:43


Post by: Jacksmiles


 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.


I had heard Mutalith and Slaughterbrute are not in the book, and the only allies are Slaves to Darkness. Do we have confirmation we can use the Mutalith?

Its not a matter of having to ally the Mutalith in, its part of the army, if you check the app it has the Beast of Chaos keyword.


I see "Monsters of Chaos" but not "Beasts of Chaos" - that's what I"m talking about. People had said it and the slaughterbrute were not receiving the Beasts of Chaos keyword - that would make them both not part of the army. I wanted to use my mutalith and was disappointed to hear this, so I'm seeking confirmation.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/21 18:19:52


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


I just double checked and you appear to be right, I could have sworn that I read it as Beast of Chaos last night but that was clearly wrong. I suppose you could cast Emerald Life swarm to try and counter act but you cant guarantee that you will always have access to it, not to mention it feels like a bit of a waste for the spell. Alternatively I heard that you can take the Festerpelt and preform self sacrifices but you only generate 1 HP back a turn.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/22 06:07:09


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


The heardstone makes them immune to moral, so some ungores or ungore raiders (if want some shooting) and a hero at the stone, entire job is to sit their and get summon points (the hero can hide behind the stone cause it is big) seems like the cheapest option to me (for multi turn points). Any other cheaper options (not gravespawn ones, purely cause I don't like the aesthetic)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what are some of your go to units?

I love Minotaurs (bullgoars now days), have units of 6 (2x 2handed, 1x 2 weapon, 1x 1 weapon 1 shield, all old metal minoturs etc). IDK how will use them yet, will play test. I have a few doom bulls (looking at buying that failcast doom bull cause I like the look of him). I have like 4 metal shamans. I mucho love the Shaggoth model ( I have 3x metal ones, need to buy some d.ogres maybe to make them worth while, but I do love the models). However, the besitgors seem to be golden good... mucho more of them. Have umpteen million ungors and gors. Could be good screens and sacrifice.

What are your thoughts on models?


Beastmen @ 2018/09/23 02:31:48


Post by: NinthMusketeer


So after seeing the full chart for summons, I do think it is a balance issue. Not because of the big stuff but because of the 5-6 point options that can be brought in easily on round two. Those are units that can get serious work done beyond just holding an objective or hitting a really squishy enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol just saw the cocktrice is 100 points and not a behemoth.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/23 03:51:12


Post by: auticus


The summons chart is to me a balance issue for the things you pointed out but also because you can get some monster spam going for free fairly easy.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/25 11:29:12


Post by: auticus


I've now seen two games played with the new beastmen. Still need a lot of data to collect before a grand conclusion can be drawn.

However.

Both games the beastmen army was similar. Two different players. Both figured out free points == good. Both built a list around spamming summoning as much as possible. Both built a list that highlighted a lot of monsters, though only one took a horde.

Game 1 - bunch of small beast units, three large monsters, spam summoning vs seraphon doing the spam summoning.

Beastmen player got lunched because the seraphon list was just double powerful. Not only can it spam summon (dude brought in around 900 points in this game) but their units and abilities were just over the top good. Killed the shaman in turn 2 to stop beastmen summoning for the most part and then just overwhelmed him with the seraphon summoning.

Game 2 - beastman player with the horde plus spam summoning vs legion of nagash.

Beastman army summoning was reminding me of the seraphon garbage. Legion player couldn't get to the herdstone as beastman player screened it well.

Legion player lost his general in turn 3 and by then the beastmen summoning tipped the scales.

In the end - spam summoning won both games, though the beastmen split games 1-1.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/25 19:40:59


Post by: NinthMusketeer


What are the BoC players bringing to maximize summons?


Beastmen @ 2018/09/25 21:35:23


Post by: Hulksmash


Yeah, I feel like something wasn't being played right if we're looking at seraphon level summoning. They just don't have that ability from what I've seen.

Also curious as Ninth said.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/25 22:27:46


Post by: auticus


I still don't know all the rules to know very well, they were getting a bunch of stuff from sacrificing and from command traits etc. From a chaos standpoint they were beating what I bring to the table as nurgle. Not that thats a lot... I typically summon in a unit of plague bearers and a drone unit.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/25 22:55:16


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I am assuming it is Allherd for the command ability that lets you turn command points into summon points, plus a battalion for an extra artifact (Allherd comes with a required one) to take The Knowing Eye which nets an extra command point every hero phase on a 4+. 1.5 summon points from command point conversion, d3 from shanking, and 1 by default for an average of 4.5 points a turn. Just one above average means a free chimera turn 2; something I suspect everyone can agree should not be happening at all, let alone with any regularity.

Even without that I feel like the 1 free point every turn bumps the summoning into 'too much' territory. IMO that should be dropped and the points generation should come solely from d3 shanks at turn; it simply does not take many points to bring in potent summons. And that Allherd command ability should simply be dropped. It should not have made it past playtesting.

On the upside, even that optimized version is still easier to deal with than merely competent Seraphon or Nagash summoning.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/26 00:51:44


Post by: auticus


Easier than seraphon or nagash... yeah. But in the casual sense its still over the top.

It is right now in my opinion the best chaos summoning force at the moment in terms of amount of free extra stuff you can take, provided you screen that shaman off.

The game has completely devolved into cornerstoning free summoning if you have it.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/26 09:41:50


Post by: tneva82


 Hulksmash wrote:

+600 points for beastmen is if you have

a) paid 120pts for a unit to hang out that doesn't lose more than 5 dudes to shooting in the course of 4 turns
b) bought a character to babysit the herdstone
c) roll a 5 or 6 for 5 straight turns
d) Play Allherd
e) Take the extra cp on 4+ relic
f) roll a 4+ for 5 turns and keep the relic bearer alive 5 turns

That's a hell of a lot of criteria to hit 600pts.


So that's then 600-120-cost of the babysit character. What's the cheapest character that fits the bill?


Beastmen @ 2018/09/26 12:26:46


Post by: RB


So just to be clear. I have a Greatfrey list Allherd. Do I get a cmd point for the Allherd. If not, this allows me still to get 2+ D3 summoning points although i wouldnt have any command points left. Also am I still allowed to put 3x3 Bullgor units in reserve Ambush. But they must come in on turn 1.

RB


Beastmen @ 2018/09/26 20:25:42


Post by: NinthMusketeer


tneva82 wrote:
 Hulksmash wrote:

+600 points for beastmen is if you have

a) paid 120pts for a unit to hang out that doesn't lose more than 5 dudes to shooting in the course of 4 turns
b) bought a character to babysit the herdstone
c) roll a 5 or 6 for 5 straight turns
d) Play Allherd
e) Take the extra cp on 4+ relic
f) roll a 4+ for 5 turns and keep the relic bearer alive 5 turns

That's a hell of a lot of criteria to hit 600pts.


So that's then 600-120-cost of the babysit character. What's the cheapest character that fits the bill?
There are some undisclosed factors. The "babysit" character can be a bray shaman that will be able to cast spell support rather than doing nothing, him and the unit he shanks are almost certainly going to be standing on an objective, and the actual point value is somewhat irrelevant next to the tactical value of deploying a chimera from the board edge round two.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/26 22:52:11


Post by: auticus


Correct. The characters on the herdstone were not just sitting there doing nothing, they were contributing to the battle as if they would be anywhere else on the table as ranged support and buffs and spells.

There is no net loss to me in the equation. The army plays as if it would with no summoning and in addition gets a bunch of free monsters strolling in from board edges for added lol.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/26 23:15:02


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Reasonably speaking there are circumstances where that character and unit would want to move around; not having the freedom to do so is a tactical cost to be paid. But it is a small one because such circumstances are not common nor particularly punishing. As you said having a support caster stay in the back with a chump unit camping on an objective nearby would occur even in there was no summoning at all.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/27 12:38:53


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


I'm new to Aos but if you are Allheard, you can spend a command point to get 1 more summon point. So get 1 summon point for Beast men, + D3 if sacrifice, +1 more if do Booming roar = 3 to 5 per turn. If you have more command points can you do Booming roar multiple times?

For sacrificing:
I think for the cheapest sacrifice unit and hero for summoning, that I have been looking at are, the chaos warhounds (80 points for 20 wounds) and for the hero is a Shaman (cause can do things even if sitting back). However, the warhounds don't count towards any battle scroll etc so ungors maybe better.

I'm going darkwalkers no matter what (is more to my theme) was just curious on the above about summon points.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/27 14:18:08


Post by: Jacksmiles


Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I'm new to Aos but if you are Allheard, you can spend a command point to get 1 more summon point. So get 1 summon point for Beast men, + D3 if sacrifice, +1 more if do Booming roar = 3 to 5 per turn. If you have more command points can you do Booming roar multiple times?

For sacrificing:
I think for the cheapest sacrifice unit and hero for summoning, that I have been looking at are, the chaos warhounds (80 points for 20 wounds) and for the hero is a Shaman (cause can do things even if sitting back). However, the warhounds don't count towards any battle scroll etc so ungors maybe better.

I'm going darkwalkers no matter what (is more to my theme) was just curious on the above about summon points.


Warhounds have 1 wound each. So I'd say ungors are better for sacrificing for 20 points less, and battleline.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/27 15:25:33


Post by: darkcloak


Wait a moment here now...

So if you can generate 8 PCP by turn 2 with good dice rolls, haven't you done 6 mortal wounds to those Ungors? Aren't they subject to Battleshock at the end of each round? Unless you burn a CP that unit will have to take a test. Ungors have Bravery 5 right? Book is inside, I'm smoking so it's a guess. But isn't there a good chance you'll wipe those Ungors by turn 2? Unless I'm reading it wrong there is no way to negate those MWs since doing so would cancel out the PCP. So a dirt cheap unit of Ungors could very well not even be able to generate the max amount of PCP on turn 2 if they rolled poorly in the BS phase. 10 Ungors take 3 MW, down to 7. Roll a 6 for BS, lose 4 more models, now you're down to 3 models. Well, I guess your 10 man unit could last 2 turns and generate 8 PCP, but that's it. So to really make use of summoning you have to invest more models than minimum squad size. A larger unit camping by the Herdstone means less points on the board elsewhere and possibly not contributing. Of course you're probably going to want Ungor Raiders so they can at least shoot, but that's upping the cost again. It seems like to really get the good stuff summoned you have to invest more than what may be feasible.

I'm not sure summoning is all that powerful for Beastmen! I think the best you can hope for is that 8 PCP by turn 2 and anything more is chasing a high. I'm not an expert but I'd say that you really have to weight the pros and cons of summoning for Beastmen and ask yourself if those points wouldn't be better invested in units you know can contribute reliably. With Brayherd Ambush available to us I think the decision is even less clear cut.

Also, we're entirely forgetting that other armies can pull deployment shenanigans to put troops in range to viably threaten your Herdstone campers! So even if you take a big blob to generate PCP the results still aren't guaranteed since you'll inevitably be taking losses and that will effect your ability to keep those sacrificial units on the board.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/27 16:16:47


Post by: Jacksmiles


Herdstone lets you ignore battleshock.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/27 20:53:21


Post by: darkcloak


Jacksmiles wrote:
Herdstone lets you ignore battleshock.


Oh right! Duh!

But still a 10 man unit won't be enough to reliably summon off of. Without having to take BS tests you're gaining maybe a turn? And all this still supposes you're rolling a 5 or 6 every turn for your sacrifice.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/27 21:46:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


In a summon optimized build only half of your points are coming from shanking ungors. On average 2 per turn, so one unit of 10 is fine. If you run out early it is because you rolled high so a good problem to have. Another unit can move into range if need be, or the hero can even deal the wounds to himself.

Even assuming a less optimized build of just bringing Allherd, it is 1 point default, 1 point from command ability, d3 for shanking, an average of 4 per turn. Easy 10-point summon round 3.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/27 23:05:27


Post by: auticus


The pros and cons are really quite stark. I can literally think of no cons to not maxing out summoning. The caster you are giving up to do the sacrificing is still doing what he normally does even if he wasn't being held back summoning. He's in the back buffing and casting spells. So you aren't losing him from the battle by sticking him by the herdstone as he's still functioning exactly the same.

The pissant unit you are sacrificing to get the summoning would hardly be doing anything in the game either.

In exchange you get to have free monsters show up in ambush. Thats huge. Hugely more valuable than NOT going that route. Its a choice that makes itself for you, unless you want to willfully handicap yourself. This conversation reminds me of the demon players in 7th edition whfb trying to say their army wasn't that OP, just a little OP.

The only way that it would be a CON is if you didn't screen your summoning caster correctly and it gets shanked early in the game. So yeah you have to bubble screen your guys, just like a non-summoning army has to do against the alpha strike garbage that can be thrown onto the table if you aren't careful.

The only facet of this thats remotely "balanced" is that GW has opened the floodgates and other armies can do it too, though in disproportionate amounts.

Against another army spamming summoning or maxing mortal wounds, this could be an interesting game.

Against an army that is neither summoning nor spamming mortal wounds (either by choice or because the sucker is playing a force that doesn't have an updated list yet that has the ability to do either), there is no point in playing out the game. Your deck wins, next opponent please.

I've not seen a non summoning non mortal wound spam army defeat a summon spam army yet in 2.0 or even come close.

Its why for our event days we have a sudden death rule where if you summon in more than 20% of your army (in 2000 points that would be summoning in more than 400 pts) and your opponent isn't summoning that they get a sudden death victory condition to kind of make it a somewhat interesting and fun game instead of a one-sided stomp fest.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 01:09:40


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I disagree with the severity, but agree with the problem. Fundamentally it is going to reduce fun overall when some players get free stuff and others do not. This can be turned around into a fun element but must be managed properly to do so. GW seems to miss that fundamental at times and approach summons as something that can be added in as a fun side-system when for those put up against it the opposite is true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unrelated note, has anyone else seen the paint job on the chimera in the battletome? Not a fan of the model but hot dam that is some nice paint work.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 02:16:03


Post by: darkcloak


Auticus, so now you want a unit to screen your sacrificial lamb? I mean, yeah that's a viable tactic but now you're using yet again more points. I think your comment about the pissant unit doing nothing but being a goat is invalidated. Especially if using Warhounds! A unit that fast deserves a flanking role or interception. The idea that Beastmen are going to be comparable to 7th Ed demons is quite frankly laughable. On a unit by unit comparison Demons win hands down almost every time. Saying Beastmen are OP because of summoning is ludicrous. I get that you are opposed to summoning, but to draw such parallels is just plain wrong. And even now you say that summoning armies with mortal wound spam are OP whereas not that long ago it was just summoning armies period, no need for MW spam. So is it summoning that is OP or is it summoning + MW spam?

At any rate I think it's way too early to tell if a week old codex is OP or not. As it stands, summoning is now a part of the game whether we like it or not and there is little to do about it. For that matter I have to question the validity of your position on summoning being auto-take since Beasts of Chaos can literally Brayherd Ambush almost every unit in the book. Do I really need to worry about summoning when I can Ambush Dragon Ogors at will?


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 02:29:14


Post by: NinthMusketeer


10 man unit to stab - 60 pts, battleline you needed anyway
10 man unit to screen - 60 pts, battleline you needed anyway
Objective you put the herdstone next to - Needed a cheap unit on it anyway
Wizard doing the stabbing - Still casts support spells he would have anyway

Note the trend of "would be there anyway" it is not that there is no cost at all, it is that the cost is trivial next to the benefits.

You are misinterpreting what he said about daemons entirely.

He is saying summoning is OP, and mortal wound spam is OP. He has been very consistent on the former since AoS 2nd edition hit, and has been consistent on the latter since before the first General's Handbook.

 darkcloak wrote:
Do I really need to worry about summoning when I can Ambush Dragon Ogors at will?
Those are two different mechanics that happen to share the same deployment. Your statement translates to "do I really need to worry about my opponent getting free units when I can deploy units I paid points for from reserve?"


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 11:32:40


Post by: auticus


The tournament powergamer lists all over the twitterverse and other places nearly always max out on summoning or take a lot of it if they can.

The alpha strike ambushing crutch is also very popular. For obvious reasons. Why bother having to have a movement phase when you don't need one and can draw your unit card from its deck and tap it to do damage to your opponent immediately?

As to screening, all armies have to screen against certain builds. So summoning armies having to do it aren't at some disadvantage that other armies are not. If you are going against an alpha strike army you have to screen the elements you care about regardless of if that element is summoning or if that element is a buff point.

I don't think that the beastmen codex is OP. I think that the game has gone down a route that is doubling down on mechanics that are OP unless they are consistently spread across the game... which they are not, and will not be for years to come.

Which enforces lists that make themselves for you and additionally which means if you live in any kind of competitive meta, which it would seem most internet posters tend to, then you will only see the same few armies.

Summoning (the ability to get free stuff) is fine... up to a point. That point is easily crossed by most of the armies that summon if you are playing someone that is not summoning.

Mortal wounds are fine. Up to a point. That point is always broken by optimization and is especially visible against armies that are not spamming mortal wounds.

Ambush / alpha strike is fine. If a unit or so can do it. When the entire army can do it you are forcing your opponent to play a certain way or else don't bother playing. While in this case there is a counter (screening) as opposed to summon crutch and mortal wound crutch which just happen and nothing can be done to stop it, it removes the aspect of maneuver from the game and is more akin to the CCG warhammer :invasion.

The goal of the beastmen list, like the stormcast list, or the seraphon list, or the nagash list, or a few otther tournament style lists, is to have the list win before turn 1 starts. It centers heavily along the free stuff plus remove maneuver goals of Age of Sigmar. Ideally... you are building a list that removes any interaction from the game out and that dictates and drives the match to its conclusion with minimal chance for your opponent to decide or maneuver at all.

Not all of the new army books have been like this. Khadron overlords, Idoneth Deepkin for example have some fun elements but are not built around removing interaction from the game by forcing certain matchups every time.

Blades of Khorne has some ssummoning elements in it and the capacity to do some mortal wounds (the ever popular bloodletter bomb) but is typically a fairly fun match up.

I have found what is and is not "OP" will depend on what your goals are. For me, a competent beastmen player should rarely lose to the above armies or any army that doesn't have a current gen book because they get a high level of free stuff plus play the ambush alpha strike game. Both of those are big fun killers for a large chunk of the armies that are supposed to be in the game.

(so the answer is don't play a large chunk of the armies that can't spam summons, or spam mortal wounds)

Note the trend of "would be there anyway" it is not that there is no cost at all, it is that the cost is trivial next to the benefits.

This exactly.

Then there's also the issue of battalion balance. We have had a lot of books release with mostly meh battalions and now the beastmen have what is seemingly (based on the power listers I'm reading) a must take battalion that also drives them to get the sweet sweet one-drop army. I think that this is mostly a relic of trying to do books one at a time spread out over years. You'll never achieve a consistent game balance with that approach.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 14:51:58


Post by: darkcloak


Sorry, I'm just trying to get a sense for what is bothering Aut without having to wade through pages of thread. I'm new to AoS so a lot of this is stuff I haven't experienced and I can only theorize based on what I'm reading in my army book. Not trying to tear down the argument just shed more light on it.

You see, I started out with 6th Ed 40k playing Raven Guard. If anyone remembers they had a very similar mechanic where you could outflank units with the Scout rule and RG CT gave your units that rule. My army could be in threat range turn 1 with some serious firepower coming in off board edges on turn 2. It was a super fluffy list and worked quite well. 7th dropped and invalidated that list and I was quite disappointed with that. Along comes Beastmen who can do virtually the same thing and I'm really excited to play that style of list again. But now I read into it and it sounds like that's going to be a very negative experience. My old RG weren't a power list by any means but they performed well and that's all I'd really like to emulate.

So that's where I'm coming from.

But back to Beastmen, can you really achieve a game breaking list with Ambush? 9" is not a reliable charge range, however there are tricks to mitigate that. But those tricks have their own stipulations. For example, the add 1 to charge rolls only works when within range of a Hero. Wholly within too I believe. So unless you're Ambushing a Hero along with your dudes it would be hard to achieve that. If you want a powerful Ambush half your army must be on the table. So I wonder how effective that can really be when there is so many other costs involved. It does certainly seem possible, but I'm just not sold on how game breaking it could be. Especially since a canny player will simply occupy the board edge to minimize the amount of units you can place forcing you to ambush closer to your own lines or risk losing units due to not enough room.

And forgive me but it did seem like Aut was making a direct comparison to Demons in the way people tried to defend them.

Also, I think we are all forgetting that this discussion takes place from a purely competitive standpoint. Auticus decries the powergamer but in reality most of us are probably playing with friends or at a club. If someone were to say to me, Darkcloak your Beastmen are going to wipe my army by turn 2 please don't go crazy with Ambush, then I would respect that in the spirit of playing a fun game for both of us.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 15:04:56


Post by: auticus


I am definitely coming at it from a general powergaming standpoint because my environment is pretty much this, so to have a good game of AOS one must also be powergaming or find something else to do.

This is true in any game somewhat, but I find the gulf of power discrepancy to be very wide in GW games.

As I noted above, ambush by itself is not game breaking. Its a serious negative play component however because if you can ambush a great amount of units, your opponent is forced to play a certain way or get soundly spanked.

Essentially you are taking a wargame with many tactical applications and distilling it down to one way of having to approach the game to counter, which does not have a long shelf life in keeping interest high.

Alpha strike and ambush style ARMIES tend to not be enjoyable play experiences because you have to play a certain way, which is a form of YOU deciding the playstyle of the game and removing interaction from your opponent.

Some alpha strike / ambush would be fun. Lists that can do it en masse... not so much.

My comment about demons was simply in 7th edition whfb, everyone knew they were the most busted thing probably ever created, and their designer went in an interview and stated he designed them busted on purpose because "they were demons of course they were supposed to be OP" but their fan base tried to downplay them as not being that bad.

The point of that being that no matter how strong, OP, or not fun something is, fans of the codex/army that utilize it will always downplay its importance and application as not being that bad.



Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 15:09:05


Post by: darkcloak


Side note. I don't get to play a whole lot, of either game, any games really. So for me this sort of debating is fun and allows me to engage in the hobby in a way that is informative and fun. Mudslinging aside of course! Unfortunately for Auticus he is the devil's advocate and arguing with someone who is on your side of the debate isn't as fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In response to your last post Aut, I really hope that isn't going to be the case going forward with Beastmen. I have an Eldar army that sees no table time because the stigma of 7th Ed Eldar still weighs heavy in most shops. Whenever I've given opponents a choice of what they face the answer is always 'NOT ELDAR!!!!'. Which is a damn shame because I painted them quite well and they're probably the least troublesome of the Craftworlds, Biel Tan. I would hate for that to be the case with my new AoS army.

Some have questioned your presence here because of your attitude towards AoS, but to me it seems like you're driving debate so... I dunno, keep doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alas, we have gotten off topic again. To bring it back around, Auticus how would you build a Beastmen army then?

I'm thinking Darkwalkers are probably going to provide a high level of variance between games thanks to the freedom afforded to the army in unit selection for the purpose of Ambush, as well as being able to split your Ambush between two turns. Also, the command ability seems pretty good for movement shenanigans but also looks to be something of a skill play. Using that ability at the wrong time could be disastrous.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 15:32:31


Post by: auticus


A lot of people don't like to hear negative comments period. We as a culture have evolved greatly over the last 5 or so years. It used to be so long as you weren't attacking people or using bad language, debate was fine. Now, you can get banned.

On beastmen, I think if you are playing with competitive people who are building tournament level lists, that you won't hear any complaints about what you build from a beastman perspective.

However if you are playing people for fun or casual, you'll definitely want to watch how much free summoning and alpha striking you are doing, because those are two red flag areas that can cause people to throw up their arms and leave over.

When I build lists for campaign day, we have rules in place to curb the shenanigans out of the gate. We provide sudden death rules if you summon more than 20% of your army or do more than 20 mortal wounds in a turn. This has actually worked very well and without houseruling anything other than alternate scenario victory conditions. Sudden death victory conditions are a part of the official game after all. It doesn't tell someone "no you can't do that" but it makes it so there is now actually a risk to choosing the easiest method of listbuilding available.

WHen I am building general lists I usually know who I am playing. Against our tournament powergamers, all bets are off and I can build whatever I want because they are going to be building something they saw at Adepticon or LVO that is designed to crush me before the game starts.

If I am playing my casual friends for fun and I know they don't like breaking the game, then I back off.

I ran beastmen in 7th edition for a while. I like the dragon ogres and the idea of a horde of goatmen running at you.

I'd probably have a unit of dragon ogres in ambush and then I'd have a wall of goatmen running up the table backed by some heroes and a shaman.

If I summoned, I'd keep the point value coming in under 400 pts in a 2000 point game unless my opponent was trying to overwhelm me with summons like our seraphon and nagash players love to do.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 16:36:44


Post by: Jacksmiles


 darkcloak wrote:

But back to Beastmen, can you really achieve a game breaking list with Ambush? 9" is not a reliable charge range, however there are tricks to mitigate that.


If you summon a chimera, they have +2" charge. Running Chronomantic Cogs adds 2" for everyone.

But those tricks have their own stipulations. For example, the add 1 to charge rolls only works when within range of a Hero. Wholly within too I believe. So unless you're Ambushing a Hero along with your dudes it would be hard to achieve that.


Why would you not ambush a hero in with whatever units you're sending at the foe? Even just a beastlord - they're cheap for an ambushing hero to give that ability in a bubble (smaller aura than other models though). However, due to your next point, it would mean you have to have another unit start on the table - but how big a downside is that, really? Another shaman to hang out and cast spells, maybe?


If you want a powerful Ambush half your army must be on the table. So I wonder how effective that can really be when there is so many other costs involved. It does certainly seem possible, but I'm just not sold on how game breaking it could be. Especially since a canny player will simply occupy the board edge to minimize the amount of units you can place forcing you to ambush closer to your own lines or risk losing units due to not enough room.


Even if an opponent makes me ambush closer to my own lines, I got further from my lines for free on turn 1. In most scenarios (I think, I'm still pretty new myself but jumping into beasts) them deploying closer to the edge rather than objectives is a net positive for me.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong, I'm just not seeing things you're putting down as "cons" to the ambushing rules as very negative to the point where my opponent can do something about it that really hurts me in a huge way.

edits: some slight additions to wording.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/28 22:20:40


Post by: NinthMusketeer


The simple reality is that how a battletome will be theoretically run in GWs eyes is quite often not how it will actually be run in practice. That is where the discrepancy between balance as intended and balance on the table comes from. GW has shown themselves to be a poor judge of how a codex/battletome will be run by the larger masses. Their playtesting is limited at best, and I have heard through the grapevine (so to speak) that there is a big issue where playtesters will report problems and GW does not listen.

To put this into Beastmen terms: theoretically some scattered units of the army will outflank but have a limited ability to charge due to the 9" range needed. In reality it will be a hero with one or two powerful units (generally a huge blob of elite infantry) that will be +2" from cogs and have a re-roll available from command points such that the unit needs to fail getting a 7+ on 2d6 twice in order to NOT make it into combat.

Or Beasts summoning, where theoretically a player will opt for the tactical cost of having a hero & unit hang back to net themselves an average of 3 summon points a turn. In reality those units were already present in the army and positioning as such anyways 80% of the time plus optimization meaning 4.5 summon points a turn with nearly no downside at all.

I think for Beasts of Chaos the intent vs reality is particularly easy to see, but this is a trend repeated across a large number of armies. The imbalance bugs me but just as much I dislike that it directly overshadows the good elements of battletomes and reduces if not eliminates more balanced options from battletomes for being a clearly worse choice.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 01:41:32


Post by: auticus


The problem that I have is that Ben, Bottle, etc... are all tournament players of allegedly high caliber. For them to let this kind of nonsense run rampant accidentally like its a good idea is kind of hard for me to believe.

I firmly believe this type of design is intentional from a marketing standpoint.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 02:04:37


Post by: AverageBoss


For all the cost you are putting into getting that "free" chimera on turn 2-3, you could just start with 1 on the table and pick something more relevant like Dark Walkers imo.

I honestly think its a trap and that the non-summoning focused builds will wind up stronger.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 02:33:55


Post by: darkcloak


Learning new things! Lol. Malign Sorcery. Gotcha.

Chronomatic Cogs is a WC 7 spell! See? More cost. You'd need that to go off on the turn you ambush and yeah, it's pretty reliable. But it's still possible to fail and if it does, well how exactly do Beastmen shore up their magic game? The Bray Shaman seems like he just casts and unbinds spell?

I'm sure I would try Ambushing in a Beastlord or something like that. I'll give you that. But still, in order to generate effective tournament level summoning with Beastmen seems like a specific build. What that is I'm not sure. Yes, this falls into Auticus's forced builds argument, but really... Is that why we are playing AoS? I think the Why/Why Not threads reveal that a lot of people enjoy AoS as a far more casual game than its predecessor.

So let those tournament guys find the meta build. The rest of us can maybe just build cool armies?

Back to Beastmen. How about this?

Using Ambush to toss a Bray Shaman alongside the opponent and then using that Wildfire Taurus spell to wreck stuff?



Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 03:13:12


Post by: auticus


Yes, this falls into Auticus's forced builds argument, but really... Is that why we are playing AoS? I think the Why/Why Not threads reveal that a lot of people enjoy AoS as a far more casual game than its predecessor.


That will depend wholly on your local community.

For a lot of my community - yes thats why they play AOS.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 04:10:50


Post by: NinthMusketeer


AverageBoss wrote:
For all the cost you are putting into getting that "free" chimera on turn 2-3, you could just start with 1 on the table and pick something more relevant like Dark Walkers imo.

I honestly think its a trap and that the non-summoning focused builds will wind up stronger.
Is this sarcasm? Honest question.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 08:46:05


Post by: AverageBoss


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
AverageBoss wrote:
For all the cost you are putting into getting that "free" chimera on turn 2-3, you could just start with 1 on the table and pick something more relevant like Dark Walkers imo.

I honestly think its a trap and that the non-summoning focused builds will wind up stronger.
Is this sarcasm? Honest question.


Not at all. By not buying a 150-200 point battalion, just so you can speed up your point generation with your extra artifact (potentially), you can just start with said monster on the table, and summon another one anyways a single turn later on average. I honestly believe allherd will be the weakest of the greatfrays. The other 2 simply bring far more to the table imo.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 08:54:40


Post by: lord_blackfang


If I played the army I would use the chapter tactic that turns my dead heroes into chaos spawn, I don't give a gak which is strongest.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 09:35:40


Post by: AaronWilson


I think Beastmen are going to be pretty defining. You can fit a one drop army with 90 Gors, 30 Bestigors, 60 Ungor Raiders, 2 Bray Shamans, Doombull & Cygor in and still have enough to start on 3 CPS.

The army will pose questions to oppenents, for sure.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 10:23:11


Post by: NinthMusketeer


AverageBoss wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
AverageBoss wrote:
For all the cost you are putting into getting that "free" chimera on turn 2-3, you could just start with 1 on the table and pick something more relevant like Dark Walkers imo.

I honestly think its a trap and that the non-summoning focused builds will wind up stronger.
Is this sarcasm? Honest question.


Not at all. By not buying a 150-200 point battalion, just so you can speed up your point generation with your extra artifact (potentially), you can just start with said monster on the table, and summon another one anyways a single turn later on average. I honestly believe allherd will be the weakest of the greatfrays. The other 2 simply bring far more to the table imo.
The battalion also offers its own beneits, less deployment drops (easy one-drop deployment to secure turn choice), and an extra cp from the start. An optimized list is going to want everything in one battalion regardless of greatfray, so that is not actually a cost.

The allherd benefits are decent--the battleshock benefit is nice when coming in from reserve and thus being outside of herdstone range, especially considering that one will want to avoid spending CP for battleshock immunity. The artifact is not bad, and the command trait is the only real dud since the general will want to be hidden to stay alive. The darkwalkers have the worst artifact & command trait, the command ability is extremely situational, and the ability to arrive from ambush in the second movement phase is similarly so. What they have going for them is ambushing bullgors, which is flat-out awesome (thunderscorn too, but they are worse for outflank than brayherd units anyways). Gavespawn are the fun one with a nifty spawnification ability, a command ability that works well if there are spawn around, and a really nice artifact, but runs into the issue that spawn are decidedly 'meh' in performance and the artifact is either going on a beastlord who will die quickly or a doombull/shaggoth that do not benefit nearly as much thanks to their already high-damage weapons.

It boils down to is allherd getting the battleshock benefit and a 10-point summon on round 2 the majority of games with easily 20+ points of summons over the whole game vs outflanking bullgors but a 10-point summon only coming in round 3 if you roll above average. At the end of the day if these two were to go up against each other the allherd would be favored. Go out and test it yourself; make two beasts lists identical except for the different greatfray and pit them against each other. Play a few matches then see what has the edge.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 15:52:12


Post by: Hulksmash


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Go out and test it yourself; make two beasts lists identical except for the different greatfray and pit them against each other. Play a few matches then see what has the edge.


I see where you're coming from but this my issue is with the bolded. Great Fray's are meant to build built around their strengths. So Bullgor don't got in a Allherd but do in a Darkwalker. Spawn go in the spawn herd but not in Darkwalker and so on. So telling people to practice with the exact same lists but with benefits favoring one side doesn't help your argument and makes it seem shallow.

Personally I don't agree that everything you're bringing for summoning you'd normally bring in a list. My Allherd has ungor and my Darkwalker/Spawn lists don't. I don't bring a screening unit in armies that aren't Allherd because summoning isn't the point. Additionally given deployment I think the units on the stone are contributing far less that is being assumed. For example holding an object but supposedly also casting support spells. The speed of a beastman list will likely result in your hitting units being outside of support range after turn 1 if you put the stone on objectives. Cogs isn't in my standard list. Running and charging kinda defeats the point and I'd rather have more bodies and a 50% chance to cast a spell isn't worth the cost without boosting abilities.

Here is my base cost to keep summon and keep said units safe against the new books;

Shaman - 100
20 Ungor Raiders - 160
40 Ungor - 200 (I personally prefer 30 gor)

Total: 460pts

I don't count the battalion as I think everyone is bringing a battalion since ours are pretty good and are in no way an incurred cost to get that extra 4+ artifact.

This is how I see it. Considering the raiders can shoot every turn but are still being murdered and are stagnant so I'd take half their value out of that so now 380pts. The Shaman can dispel a spell a turn (half his normal value) so we'll feed 50pts back in for 330pts. The screen should be able given it's size to grab an objective and screen and in some games might actually be useful for something else so we'll even give it half it's value back (I think this is high) for a total 230pts spent to keep summoning up and running. In exchange I average 4.5pts per turn (80) for a total of 22.5 or 450pts per game on average. Subtract that 230 and you're looking on average at adding 120pts to your army per game.

I'm not going to deny it's a good toolbox thing. But I think people are pretty heavily over estimating it's impact especially given how the units appear on the field. Also, it's not like the shaman is the most resilient of characters.


Beastmen @ 2018/09/29 18:20:21


Post by: Kanluwen


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The simple reality is that how a battletome will be theoretically run in GWs eyes is quite often not how it will actually be run in practice. That is where the discrepancy between balance as intended and balance on the table comes from. GW has shown themselves to be a poor judge of how a codex/battletome will be run by the larger masses. Their playtesting is limited at best, and I have heard through the grapevine (so to speak) that there is a big issue where playtesters will report problems and GW does not listen.

Funny, because I've heard a few say that there's a big issue where there have been playtesters who aren't reporting things with the intention of running it for tournaments. They know they'll get a limited timeframe of using it but they'll move right on to the next army afterwards.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 07:33:46


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


We have all heard what the Allherd can do but I believe that the Darkwalkers and the Gavespawn bring enough that can match it on the table.

If you have a lot of Warherd, Darkwalkers can really help get the beef across the table. Though I think Brayherd can best take advantage of there Command Trait. Their Command Ability can also be great for grabbing and uncontested objective. There only real dud is their Artefact, especially with 2 other examples in the book with the same effect but better.

My favorite though has to be the Gavespawn. Being able to give a hoard army plus one attack can be down right brutal. Then they have my favorite artefact, it make a 90pt model swing way above its weight class. I find there base ability to only be so so but it does play off there Command Ability, and their Command Trait is kind of lame but still useful.

About my only problem is I don't see why you wouldn't take one of the Greatfrays. If there is a specific artifact you want, you can always take a Battalion to unlock it. And with exception to maybe 1 or 2 from the Warherd, I didn't find any of the Command Traits worth giving up what the Greatfrays offer. Although I suppose if you want to tone down your list for an opponent who might have a more struggling army, not taking a Greatfray is a good place to start.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 11:14:14


Post by: tneva82


 Hulksmash wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Go out and test it yourself; make two beasts lists identical except for the different greatfray and pit them against each other. Play a few matches then see what has the edge.


I see where you're coming from but this my issue is with the bolded. Great Fray's are meant to build built around their strengths. So Bullgor don't got in a Allherd but do in a Darkwalker. Spawn go in the spawn herd but not in Darkwalker and so on. So telling people to practice with the exact same lists but with benefits favoring one side doesn't help your argument and makes it seem shallow.

Personally I don't agree that everything you're bringing for summoning you'd normally bring in a list. My Allherd has ungor and my Darkwalker/Spawn lists don't. I don't bring a screening unit in armies that aren't Allherd because summoning isn't the point. Additionally given deployment I think the units on the stone are contributing far less that is being assumed. For example holding an object but supposedly also casting support spells. The speed of a beastman list will likely result in your hitting units being outside of support range after turn 1 if you put the stone on objectives. Cogs isn't in my standard list. Running and charging kinda defeats the point and I'd rather have more bodies and a 50% chance to cast a spell isn't worth the cost without boosting abilities.


Agreed. If you want to see is other build better you need to select units to _that_ build and then play against wide variety of lists(doesn't matter much if you can bring in good anti-X list if you then suck vs others). Are you winning more against wide variety of foes(the ones you generally face) with X or Y? That tells more than can X beat Y regardless of others and even more so does identical list Y with different free rules beat each other.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 11:29:01


Post by: auticus


Here's the ultimate test.

Play a series of games with summoning.
Play a series of games with the same list without summoning.

Observe the difficulty level of your game increasing noticeably.

I know here anyway that it makes a sizable difference. If you are up against an army summoning and your beastman army is not summoning then they better be pushing northward of 40 mortal wounds a turn.



Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 11:35:26


Post by: tneva82


Better one: Play series of games with summoning buillds. Play series of games with non-summoning builds. As you have different free rules obviously it's going to alter units that you use.

Then observe which one does better.

If your battallion/whatever gives rules X obviously it's going to affect what units works best with that so you change the build. You don't switch h2h boosting stats to shooting boosts and expect h2h army to perform equally well do you?


Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 12:07:30


Post by: auticus


Possibly because I don't see "summoning builds" as being grossly different from normal builds whereas putting shooting buffs on hand to hand units is using an entirely different set of stats.

Legion of Nagash, any of the chaos demons, seraphon, their summoning is on top of normal builds. Seraphon it may be argued they wouldn't normally take an astrolith bearer. So they are giving up the cost of the astrolith bearer to bring in around 1000 points of seraphon monsters.

I know that nurgle builds do't have summoning builds. Neither do khorne or tzeentch. They do the things they'd normally do anyway. Kill stuff or cast a ton of spells.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 16:54:22


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


auticus wrote:
Here's the ultimate test.

Play a series of games with summoning.
Play a series of games with the same list without summoning.

Observe the difficulty level of your game increasing noticeably.

I know here anyway that it makes a sizable difference. If you are up against an army summoning and your beastman army is not summoning then they better be pushing northward of 40 mortal wounds a turn.


Beast of Chaos have a lot of ways to reduce armor that I don't think they need mortal wounds to be competitive.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 17:09:33


Post by: auticus


If thats true then they'll be the first faction to not need to spam mortal wounds and be viable at the tournament hall. As they can summon around 500 points or so reliably and play the "i don't need a movement phase I show up where I want and remove your ability to do anything about that" game, there is probably a grain of truth in that.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/04 18:53:45


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I think they are not topping summons or mortal wound output but have enough of each to do reasonably well. LoN and Seraphon are still stronger though, Beasts are not going to be the new fotm imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
auticus wrote:
Here's the ultimate test.

Play a series of games with summoning.
Play a series of games with the same list without summoning.

Observe the difficulty level of your game increasing noticeably.

I know here anyway that it makes a sizable difference. If you are up against an army summoning and your beastman army is not summoning then they better be pushing northward of 40 mortal wounds a turn.


Beast of Chaos have a lot of ways to reduce armor that I don't think they need mortal wounds to be competitive.
That is a big part of it, the other is that while MWs generally have some sort of 'hit' mechanic they bypass needing wound rolls. This means the damage output is quite high compared to many attacks even before armor, for the most part.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/08 18:12:35


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


So i got my order in the other day (Codex, Herdstone, endless spells, Cards etc). I had to wait awhile cause the cards where out of stock. My first order for AoS. I must say I was impressed with the book (not the rules, had seen most of them and think they look good) more the presentation and the actual book (seemed a bit more than 40k though similar styling for same money). The herdstone is a good model and was cheap as. The cards are fine (prob never use but maybe). The endless spells seem fine for cost. I might buy a start collecting box as well (I have a lot of old models but purley to get the Gorgon for my hungering warheard). The release seems a ++ from me. Made me order AoS (and I have like every special character and massive fantasy armies from the dwarves and Vampire counts from the 90's/early 00's and never been interested before) so is a ++.



Beastmen @ 2018/10/08 19:33:55


Post by: NinthMusketeer


The book is certainly designed well and looks really nice. Lots of great artwork.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/09 03:28:47


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


I would agree, and I think it sets a standard for any newer release.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/09 11:02:49


Post by: auticus


I did like the artwork and layout. They have done well with production values.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/19 08:12:26


Post by: Jamie the Jasper


I'm a big fan of the new book. It offers a lot of flexibility for both army composition and theme. As always with GW some builds are obviously stronger than others, but there are still a variety of viable options.


Beastmen @ 2018/10/19 17:49:40


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Jamie the Jasper wrote:
I'm a big fan of the new book. It offers a lot of flexibility for both army composition and theme. As always with GW some builds are obviously stronger than others, but there are still a variety of viable options.
Agreed.


Beastmen @ 2018/11/01 03:19:40


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


It has been a few weeks since the book dropped and I was wondering what everyone's opinions of the book are now that they have maybe had a chance to try it out or experience it. For me the difference is night and day, I feel like I have the proper tools to compete with any army in the game at this point. I would like to see some tournament data but it still seems too early for that.


Beastmen @ 2018/11/01 03:25:45


Post by: NinthMusketeer


It is hard to deny that Beasts has been the winner so far in terms of tidying up sub-factions and making a whole swathe of units viable where they were previously mediocre at best.


Beastmen @ 2018/11/01 03:57:10


Post by: nels1031


 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
would like to see some tournament data but it still seems too early for that.


Blood and Glory in the UK is this weekend. Mayhaps get an inkling of how things stand once the dust settles from that event.


Beastmen @ 2018/11/01 11:35:52


Post by: auticus


Very little actual experience. We had a guy run a list. He faced a non optimized chaos slaves to darkness army and his alpha strike won him the game easily.

However then he played stormcast the following week and got mowed down by the stormcast player's alpha strike and he hasnt played since that day. Thats not really a lot to go by unfortunately.


Beastmen @ 2018/11/15 05:53:05


Post by: Malathrim


One of the bonuses I see in the Beasts of Chaos Tome is that most of the Warscroll Battalions let someone put down a whole 2000 point army in one drop if they wanted, or add another Hero or 2 for very minimal drops. Coupled with a Greatfray and a relic (aside from the meh Greatfray relics) that can be a potent force who gets to choose to go first or not.

I could see going second vs a non-shooty army, let them come to the Beasts a little bit turn 1 so we can get the counter charge. Vs Stormcast that would be tough to decide, but still alpha striking with Darkwalkers outflanking, or just speeding across the table in some cases to choose the fights is still better than them choosing the fights.

The Herdstone and Taurus and Dirge Horn spells are all looking good on paper. I finally got my Brass Despoilers all assembled, have a painted Shaggoth besides to help distract and counter spells; and once I get my Bray Shaman I can give them a whirl maybe after Thanksgiving.

Warherds were my first AoS army, and they've been itching to get back in the fight, now with all greataxes! After a pure Beasts army I'll try them in a Khorne army too. Anyone try them out yet? I've heard a few people say the Bullgors can do pretty well. They have crappy saves but hopefully by turn 3 the enemy will too with the Herdstone spreading. That and the Dirge Horn could be really good in a 4'x4' Vanguard size game.

I'm wondering if I should get a unit of Gors to throw in there with the Despoilers for sacrificing to summon things. Would love to have a Jabberslythe or Centigors pop up should the need arise. A Chimera might have to wait until the last turn sometimes though. Maybe summoning tiny hordes of puny Ungors is best though? Cheapo and can just sit on objectives whilst the big bulls charge forth?