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What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 11:08:55


Post by: BrianDavion


Everyone's got a unit like this, it's called "bad" and suboptimal but you keep using it because to you it's part of your armies quirky charm. the mathhammer players keep telling you you suyck for taking it etc. but you just keep plunking it down..

For me it's the basic tactical marine, sure scouts might be a bit more efficant, but damnit, I feel wrong playing Marines without a squad of two of Tacs.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 11:26:19


Post by: Nevelon


I agree that a marine list doesn’t feel like a marine army unless it has a squad or two of tacs. And I field full 10 man squads, with both the special and the heavy. I’m playing Ultramarines, if I don’t uphold the doctrines of the Codex, who will?

I pretty much field the full gambit of “suck” units. Terminators, assault marines, land raiders, chaplains, drop pods in 8th. The list goes on. Not all at once, mind you. I try to temper my inclusion of mediocre units by tightening up my list elsewhere. Plus I don’t play in a hyper-competitive meta. So it works out, and I have fun.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 11:41:58


Post by: Stux


In a similar vein to above, Deathwing Knights. They're just so cool with the robes and the shields!

To be fair, they are more viable than most Terminators thanks to the Storm Shields combined with S8 weapons that don't have a -1 to hit, and in an army that can stack some great buffs! (Hello Asmodai).

But they still suffer from the issue of how to actually get them into combat and stay there with their slow movement and lack of cheap transportation. And they're very expensive pts wise.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 12:23:32


Post by: Ratius


Ork Killa Kanz. I think they are great models and quite characterful.
But I dont use them at all.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 12:30:07


Post by: IronBrand


I use my myphitic blight-hauler in all my games since coming back to the game. He's not the worst when it comes to "bad" units but it is 2 points more than a plagueburst crawler. I just assembled another two of them today so I can field the full tri-lobe. I like the model, it's an inexpensive kit and they're described as basically being like dogs.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 12:30:28


Post by: Galas


Terminators.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 13:08:41


Post by: Nazrak


 Nevelon wrote:
I agree that a marine list doesn’t feel like a marine army unless it has a squad or two of tacs. And I field full 10 man squads, with both the special and the heavy. I’m playing Ultramarines, if I don’t uphold the doctrines of the Codex, who will?

I pretty much field the full gambit of “suck” units. Terminators, assault marines, land raiders, chaplains, drop pods in 8th. The list goes on. Not all at once, mind you. I try to temper my inclusion of mediocre units by tightening up my list elsewhere. Plus I don’t play in a hyper-competitive meta. So it works out, and I have fun.

Much the same here. My idea of what constitutes a “proper” Space Marine army calcified somewhere around 1992 and I’m buggered if I’m changing that based purely on competitive efficiency.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 13:19:45


Post by: Eldarsif


Deathwing Terminators et al. Can't help but run a pure Deathwing every edition.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 13:26:04


Post by: FrozenDwarf


kataphron breachers.

simply a troop unit not ment for 8th edition.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 13:29:30


Post by: Galef


Eldar Windriders. They aren't "bad" per se, but from a competitive sense, there really is no reason to take them over Shining Spears. Heck even Vypers could be argued as better with their 3+ armour and more weapon options.

Moving WRs back to Fast Attack after decades of being Troops was not executed well. Being 5-10ppm cheaper would go a long way.
But still, they are what got me started with Eldar 10 years ago, so I'll keep making lists with about a dozen of them.

Also Necron Scarabs and the Monolith. They're just such iconic Necron unit you can't not take them.

-


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 13:36:11


Post by: Xenomancers


For Eldar - it's wraith lords. I think they are one of the best looking models in the game. I try to include 2 of them to tone down lists sometimes.

For tyranids is the haruspex. It's just so ugly and vicious. Have to include.

For TS - it's rubrics - I bring 30. It's just not TS without them.

All the other armies my options are ether too limited or the army is generally all good or all bad - so I just do with what I've got.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
kataphron breachers.

simply a troop unit not ment for 8th edition.

Yes - I agree. My friend brings 9 of them. I hate to pick on them but their damage is WAY to high to ignore but they die SO easy. Flat 3 damage is all over the place.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:08:56


Post by: Insectum7


Tacticals, I bring 40 of them to every match.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:10:10


Post by: iGuy91


Necron Lychguard.
No delivery mechanisms, 5 inch movement...wheeeee


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:16:19


Post by: Reanimation_Protocol


 iGuy91 wrote:
Necron Lychguard.
No delivery mechanisms, 5 inch movement...wheeeee


Beat me to it ...

so I'll go Necron Canoptek Spyder ... it never sees play because a conscript just looks at it with a raised eyebrow and it falls over dead.

I'll follow up with my Monolith which I put on the table in one game (was a 9,000 points game total) and it didn't even get to shoot. ... bleh

and lastly .. Necron Night Scythes .. .. so flimsy it may as well jsut advance full speed straight off the far edge of the table .. and take the troops on the Tomb World with it !! :(


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:18:28


Post by: Galef


 Xenomancers wrote:
For Eldar - it's wraith lords. I think they are one of the best looking models in the game. I try to include 2 of them to tone down lists sometimes.
Oh that's a good one. Is it too late to change my answer?

-


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:20:35


Post by: Gitdakka


Assult marines with jump pack for me. I just assembled another 7 because I like my current five man squad so much.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:32:48


Post by: techsoldaten


Chaos Raptors.

When I have points to burn I take a unit. They tend to overperform in my lists, either as assassins or tank-killers. They pop in to kill something then go grab objectives.

That said, most of my lists are long-range shooty. Something to be said about bad units: their value goes up in an army when they fill a gap left by your good units.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:36:26


Post by: Stux


 iGuy91 wrote:
Necron Lychguard.
No delivery mechanisms, 5 inch movement...wheeeee


You can use Deceiver, Obyron and Zahndrekh shenanigans can't you?

I admit, the fact you need 3 named characters to deliver a single unit of Lychguard effectively means it's not always the best strategy :p


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 14:51:20


Post by: FrozenDwarf


 Xenomancers wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
kataphron breachers.

simply a troop unit not ment for 8th edition.

Yes - I agree. My friend brings 9 of them. I hate to pick on them but their damage is WAY to high to ignore but they die SO easy. Flat 3 damage is all over the place.


yea i have 9 myself, buildt 6 months before index dropped and they are 60% of my now no longer existing cult mech army thanks to GW.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 15:17:12


Post by: Thadin


While it's not bad persay, it certainly has it's niche in ruining Mortarion and Eldar's life...

Love me my Astraeus. She's a beastly brick of resin with fairly nasty guns. The stats don't add up to 750 points, however... Such a shame.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 15:24:10


Post by: Yarium


I love the basic troops of pretty much every army in the game. I love Plague Marines and Rubric Marines and Chaos Space Marines. It's sad that most of my games involve trying to minimize these units now. The only basic troops I tend to take now are Cultists and Poxwalkers, but if I know I'm having a non-competitive game, those basic dudes make their way out in totally inappropriate numbers.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 15:36:20


Post by: Excommunicatus


Zarakynel, or as I call her - The Violet Heart.

Nearly 700pts, She's massive, hard to hide and fragile


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 15:47:36


Post by: Fueli


Terminators. All kinds except regular vanilla terminators. I haven't played marines in a while though, so don't have any.

My latest love is Allarus Terminators. I recently bought a squad of them and can't wait to paint them and wreck face in some more casual games.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 15:50:02


Post by: Xenomancers


 Thadin wrote:
While it's not bad persay, it certainly has it's niche in ruining Mortarion and Eldar's life...

Love me my Astraeus. She's a beastly brick of resin with fairly nasty guns. The stats don't add up to 750 points, however... Such a shame.

I was so excited to get this thing - then saw it's rules and I was like...WAH?


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 15:53:46


Post by: Valkyrie


Terminators, while they're still pretty crap they're not bad at putting out a surprising amount of firepower on a hardy platform.

Tactical Marines as well I still love, again not the best but you can get a decent array of weapons on cheap-ish units.

Leman Russ Vanquishers, I hear nothing good about them, people just whinge and bitch about them, yet I use it with Pask, Lascannon and 2x Multi Meltas and he does pretty well, can make his points back most times I use him.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 16:00:00


Post by: Thadin


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Thadin wrote:
While it's not bad persay, it certainly has it's niche in ruining Mortarion and Eldar's life...

Love me my Astraeus. She's a beastly brick of resin with fairly nasty guns. The stats don't add up to 750 points, however... Such a shame.

I was so excited to get this thing - then saw it's rules and I was like...WAH?


I'm fine with it's rules. It's main cannon is powerful; it's just about a Baneblade Cannon, with a reliable number of shots, weaker STR if I remember right, but, the added bonus of ignoring Modifiers to Hit vs Targets with Fly. A host of other decent guns, hard to charge and tie down, ect.

I wish it's Void Shield was better, and that it had a Transport Capacity, but that's just my opinion. I like it's rules. I don't like it's cost.

Another thing I wish, was for all Anti-Aircraft weapons, and things like it, I think it would be better if they had the Astraeus' wording. Ignore negative modifiers to hit when targeting fly keyword, rather than a mere +1 to hit. It's worse against non-eldar, not supersonic equivalent flyers, but stronger against stacked modifiers.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 16:16:02


Post by: Stux


 Valkyrie wrote:

Leman Russ Vanquishers, I hear nothing good about them, people just whinge and bitch about them, yet I use it with Pask, Lascannon and 2x Multi Meltas and he does pretty well, can make his points back most times I use him.


There's a couple of things going on here:

1.
In most real games you can afford to make a few sub optimal choices and it won't have much noticeable effect on how the game goes. Either it's made up for elsewhere, or your opponent is also taking a couple of sub optimal things and so the overall power of the lists is still the about the same as each other. People do get a bit carried away with min-maxing everything on here at the expense of what people actually enjoying playing with sometimes!

2.
Pask is an absolute monster. With a Battlecannon he in incredible. Vanquishers are frankly a fair bit worse, but Pask is still so good that it balances out to still a pretty decent unit!


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 16:23:04


Post by: Captain Joystick


Bullgryn.

Bullgryn with bats.

Bullgryn with bats and a priest and a Chimera to ride around with, in order to best deliver said bats.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 16:29:14


Post by: ClockworkZion


BrianDavion wrote:
Everyone's got a unit like this, it's called "bad" and suboptimal but you keep using it because to you it's part of your armies quirky charm. the mathhammer players keep telling you you suyck for taking it etc. but you just keep plunking it down.

With my Sisters it's Repentia. They're incredibly bad now, but they were hilarious during 5th edition where a unit of them could cleave a Land Raider in half in a single round of melee. The internet kept telling me they were bad and I'd have to bend over backwards to make them work, but when I got them into combat (they didn't always make it) they did magical things.

These days I'm looking at running all Primaris, which includes suboptimal choices like the Reivers and Repulsor. To be fair, Marines in general aren't "optimal" at the moment so it's more the less optimal choices of an already suboptimal subfaction of a suboptimal codex.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 16:50:45


Post by: ZergSmasher


With Tau, it's probably my Stormsurge and my Ghostkeel. They were both incredibly good in 7th, but a bit lackluster in 8th. The thing that keeps the Stormsurge down in 8th is the lack of the <BATTLESUIT> keyword, meaning it can't pass wounds off to drones and has to just hope it can roll 4++ saves well. Everyone tells me to run more Riptides instead, but I stubbornly insist on bringing out the Stormsurge. The Ghostkeel just costs too many points and its special stealth drones are too easy to just delete, but I love the model and thus run it sometimes. It has done good work for me at times, too.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 16:56:56


Post by: Lemondish


Land Raiders.

As a mostly Deathwatch player right now, I lack for anti-tank. Not because I don't have choices, but because the choices I do have are stupid expensive. Like the Land Raider.

But man, that thing is just an absolute beast of a cool model...

Bonus: Repulsors - as the Primaris LR equivalent, I want to play more of these...but it's stupid expensive for the impact it has on the table. If it could fire SIA out of those storm bolters....


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 17:26:03


Post by: Table


Rubrics.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 18:53:44


Post by: gnome_idea_what


Trukk Nobz- I love my kitted out models but they kinda die to everythng while accomplishing nothing.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 19:27:33


Post by: Alex_85


Oh yes.

Terminators


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 20:03:33


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


Well I think they are better then most people give them credit for, but I love ripping apart my enemy's back line with Necron Flayed Ones.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 20:06:20


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


Exorcists.
Back in the day, a single shot could terrorize an opponent. Friends would get nervous just seeing one on the table.
Now, you get lucky and get full 6 shots off and you roll your eyes because thats 6 dice that will barely scratch the paint work of whatever youve decided to waste your time pointing it at.
Still, its a great looking model and will always take it because my army feels incomplete without a giant organ on a tank firing missiles out its pipes.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 20:16:23


Post by: TonyH122


For my Chaos force: Helbrutes. I just think they're so quintessentially 40k, and look great. Have three, never use them, but love them to pieces. I'd get ten if they were good.

For my Nids: Raveners. I just think they look so sleek. They were fine before the big FAQ, but now not so much. But oh how I love them. Just so Niddly!


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 21:01:03


Post by: Brutus_Apex


I love everything thats bad.

Incubi
Wraithblades
Wraith Lords
Wraith Knights
Terminators
Actual Tactical Marines
Assault Marines
Crusader Marines
Black Templars in general
Grey Knights (everything)
Chaplains
Land Raiders

You name it, if it does close combat then I probably like it and it probably sucks so bad that you will lose games just thinking about taking them.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 21:03:24


Post by: Stux


 TonyH122 wrote:
For my Chaos force: Helbrutes. I just think they're so quintessentially 40k, and look great. Have three, never use them, but love them to pieces. I'd get ten if they were good.

For my Nids: Raveners. I just think they look so sleek. They were fine before the big FAQ, but now not so much. But oh how I love them. Just so Niddly!


Raveners are still great in Jormungandr I think! Much cheaper than a Trygon and much more space around a unit of 3 for deploying units from tunnels.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 21:06:21


Post by: cosmicsoybean


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Zarakynel, or as I call her - The Violet Heart.

Nearly 700pts, She's massive, hard to hide and fragile


I disagree, at least in a mono slaanesh army, she pulls her weight quite well. drop her, kill pretty much anything in 1 round and she forces the enemy to put all of their firepower into her, and if they don't kill her shes going to be deleting anything she touches. Basically forces them to pick killing her, or ignoring the 100 daemonettes putting out like 300 attacks speeding towards them.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 21:17:52


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Deathwing Terminators.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 21:26:19


Post by: Bach


For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 21:26:40


Post by: dreadblade


 Nazrak wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
I agree that a marine list doesn’t feel like a marine army unless it has a squad or two of tacs. And I field full 10 man squads, with both the special and the heavy. I’m playing Ultramarines, if I don’t uphold the doctrines of the Codex, who will?

I pretty much field the full gambit of “suck” units. Terminators, assault marines, land raiders, chaplains, drop pods in 8th. The list goes on. Not all at once, mind you. I try to temper my inclusion of mediocre units by tightening up my list elsewhere. Plus I don’t play in a hyper-competitive meta. So it works out, and I have fun.

Much the same here. My idea of what constitutes a “proper” Space Marine army calcified somewhere around 1992 and I’m buggered if I’m changing that based purely on competitive efficiency.

Same here! I'm reliving my RT days in 8th edition


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 22:26:46


Post by: Marmatag


Genestealers. They're completely absent from the meta, but I love fielding them and can usually get some mileage out of them before they die.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 22:27:40


Post by: Xenomancers


 Galef wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
For Eldar - it's wraith lords. I think they are one of the best looking models in the game. I try to include 2 of them to tone down lists sometimes.
Oh that's a good one. Is it too late to change my answer?

-

It's never too late! Though it might be too late for wraithlords and their kin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lemondish wrote:
Land Raiders.

As a mostly Deathwatch player right now, I lack for anti-tank. Not because I don't have choices, but because the choices I do have are stupid expensive. Like the Land Raider.

But man, that thing is just an absolute beast of a cool model...

Bonus: Repulsors - as the Primaris LR equivalent, I want to play more of these...but it's stupid expensive for the impact it has on the table. If it could fire SIA out of those storm bolters....
It has plenty of impact it just dies too easy for it's cost. I have hope that it will drop in price. As it stands though - it's auto include for a space marine army only pulling out of the space marine codex.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thadin wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Thadin wrote:
While it's not bad persay, it certainly has it's niche in ruining Mortarion and Eldar's life...

Love me my Astraeus. She's a beastly brick of resin with fairly nasty guns. The stats don't add up to 750 points, however... Such a shame.

I was so excited to get this thing - then saw it's rules and I was like...WAH?


I'm fine with it's rules. It's main cannon is powerful; it's just about a Baneblade Cannon, with a reliable number of shots, weaker STR if I remember right, but, the added bonus of ignoring Modifiers to Hit vs Targets with Fly. A host of other decent guns, hard to charge and tie down, ect.

I wish it's Void Shield was better, and that it had a Transport Capacity, but that's just my opinion. I like it's rules. I don't like it's cost.

Another thing I wish, was for all Anti-Aircraft weapons, and things like it, I think it would be better if they had the Astraeus' wording. Ignore negative modifiers to hit when targeting fly keyword, rather than a mere +1 to hit. It's worse against non-eldar, not supersonic equivalent flyers, but stronger against stacked modifiers.

The fact it can't transport like 20 primaris models and Weak AF voidsheilds is mind blowing. I have a Falchion and it seems the difference in cost is worth it over the Asstrerus. Though they are both overcosted by at least 150 points.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 22:58:23


Post by: Nazrak


 Brother Castor wrote:
 Nazrak wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
I agree that a marine list doesn’t feel like a marine army unless it has a squad or two of tacs. And I field full 10 man squads, with both the special and the heavy. I’m playing Ultramarines, if I don’t uphold the doctrines of the Codex, who will?

I pretty much field the full gambit of “suck” units. Terminators, assault marines, land raiders, chaplains, drop pods in 8th. The list goes on. Not all at once, mind you. I try to temper my inclusion of mediocre units by tightening up my list elsewhere. Plus I don’t play in a hyper-competitive meta. So it works out, and I have fun.

Much the same here. My idea of what constitutes a “proper” Space Marine army calcified somewhere around 1992 and I’m buggered if I’m changing that based purely on competitive efficiency.

Same here! I'm reliving my RT days in 8th edition

Haha, glad to hear it’s not just me then!


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 23:06:11


Post by: grouchoben


Terminators. I refuse to give up! The best I've come up with is 5 DW termis with power axes and SIA Combibolters. They do ... something.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 23:09:03


Post by: Table


 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.



Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 23:29:54


Post by: Arson Fire


The tyranid dimachaeron. The model is spectacular, and I love putting it on the table.
But it is possibly the most pillowfisted, squishy pile of trash in my collection.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 23:38:52


Post by: Desubot


Vindicators

every single time.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 23:41:58


Post by: Nightlord1987


Most of the Bad but still Played units are holdovers from last edition that I wont give up on.

Loyalists: SM Bikers and Thunderfire Cannons.

Orks: Lootaz, and Kommandos.

CSM: Spawn, Rhinos, Heldrakes.

Also adding the Lascannon Misile Launcher Helbrute.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/17 23:48:18


Post by: Galas


 grouchoben wrote:
Terminators. I refuse to give up! The best I've come up with is 5 DW termis with power axes and SIA Combibolters. They do ... something.


The best loyalist terminators I have found, are Deathwing Knights (A beast in meele but very expensive and bad delivery options), and Cathapractii terminators with 1 Lighting claw+Assault Bolter.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 00:02:24


Post by: Kitane


Yep, the Raveners. I bought 9 of them for the old Subterranean Swarm formation, but I never had the opportunity to field them properly in the 7th edition.

I love the model design, it's frustrating how GW simply refuses to give them decent rules or access to biomorphs. No, being a cheap taxi doesn't really count.

That the kit doesn't contain generic biomorph bits? Many Nid kits are missing it as well, how about releasing a biomorph upgrade sprue or something...


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 00:04:40


Post by: The Newman


Can I just say "Space Marines" and leave it at that? No?

I do have to say that I don't understand the dislike for the Whirlwind. It's a 72" twin-linked Autocannon (which most people seem to agree is a good gun) with indirect fire. And not too much more expensive than a Dev squad with two ACs would be if a Dev squad could take ACs in the first place.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 02:51:32


Post by: Claas


 iGuy91 wrote:
Necron Lychguard.
No delivery mechanisms, 5 inch movement...wheeeee


Its pricey but you can take a cryptek with a veil, teleport him and NZ 9" away, then Obyron Ghostwalks a unit of warscythe Lychguard 3" away from enemy and withinh 6" of NZ for turn 1 charge. Also no restrictions on number of uses for Ghostwalk Mantle so then you can leapfrog over NZ to get some extra movement. Pricey and not competitive but can be fun if you want to kill something with lychguard.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 03:03:24


Post by: ccs


Well, what're people currently hating on math-wise? I'll probably be using it. Maybe even in multiples.

As I've been away from the game for almost 2.5 editions I'm not yet current on what all units have been deemed bad this time.

I have noticed a lot of anti-marine sentiment though. So as the 1st army I'm pulling out of storage is my Space Wolves....
But if I had to pick? The worst will probably be my drop pods. Expensive & almost completely forbidden from doing there job.



What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 03:24:59


Post by: Vitali Advenil


Deff Dreads. Expensive in points, terrible shooting, slow, and underwhelming in damage for what you pay, they're one of the worst walkers out there. But dammit, they're one of my favorite looking models in the entire game so it's not gonna stop me from fielding three of them.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 03:31:21


Post by: tneva82


 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Deff Dreads. Expensive in points, terrible shooting, slow, and underwhelming in damage for what you pay, they're one of the worst walkers out there. But dammit, they're one of my favorite looking models in the entire game so it's not gonna stop me from fielding three of them.


This + killa kans. Both die by saying "boo" but damn they look sweet.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 04:53:17


Post by: Just Tony


Troops choices. Barring the start of my gaming experience when I didn't know better, my armies have all been built around 40-50% Troops. Same with that filthy squares game over there...


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 05:04:26


Post by: darkcloak


Prolly the 8th guy to say this but...

I like tactical squads.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 06:42:26


Post by: Arachnofiend


The Triarch Stalker is my favorite vehicle model in the entire game... unfortunately it is Very Not Good.

On a similar but less extreme scale, lychguard have always taunted and tempted me. I love them and the concept of meleecrons in general, and they've often been close enough to viable to try out, but they've never been quite good enough to be really successful for one reason or another.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 06:46:37


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Fortunately, most of the things that I like are good or at least passable in some capacity.

The exceptions are probably the Exorcist and the Vindicator, but I don't make room for them in my lists and they will sit out until they receive buffs, because I also like Basilisks.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 06:57:26


Post by: Moriarty


Hmmmn.

I am in the fortunate position that I can ring the changes with my Orks. This means some players are surprised by the non-horde nature of the army.

But, so far, non have seemed bad, just too expensive or not enough attack dice.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 07:59:12


Post by: wildboar66


Any unit I use.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 08:07:52


Post by: NH Gunsmith


Rhinos. Dear lord do I love my four Rhinos.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 08:08:53


Post by: Nazrak


 darkcloak wrote:
Prolly the 8th guy to say this but...

I like tactical squads.

I’m really enjoying this. The enthusiasm for the much-maligned Tactical Squad in particular, but this whole thread in general – it’s really cool to see some positivity on this board for a change, based on just downright thinking stuff *seems neat*, rather than any hardcore game-functionality concerns.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 09:13:07


Post by: Arlen


I love the admech Ruststalkers and Kataphron Breachers models. Sadly they do not cut it most of the time in game as the Ruststalkers tend to die by even the lightest guns and Kataphron Breachers getting killed off before being able to destroy anything.
I do however get to use the Kataphron Destroyers from time to time and they serve me very well. But I would not call them bad, just overshadowed in general by other options in the codex.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 09:17:45


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Arlen wrote:
I love the admech Ruststalkers and Kataphron Breachers models. Sadly they do not cut it most of the time in game as the Ruststalkers tend to die by even the lightest guns and Kataphron Breachers getting killed off before being able to destroy anything.
I do however get to use the Kataphron Destroyers from time to time and they serve me very well. But I would not call them bad, just overshadowed in general by other options in the codex.

You might want to give Kill Team a look, Ruststalkers are a much more interesting and viable unit in that format.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 09:32:57


Post by: Avor


MY madusa. before back in 3rd edition. had to model the gun for it, but when I first used it, it blew up a landraider, hten on the next turn it killed all the terminators came out. That only that comes close to the love I have for it in the Thunder shield tank.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 09:42:16


Post by: Just Tony


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Fortunately, most of the things that I like are good or at least passable in some capacity.

The exceptions are probably the Exorcist and the Vindicator, but I don't make room for them in my lists and they will sit out until they receive buffs, because I also like Basilisks.



My current plan is to have three Vindicators in my Crimson Fists army.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 10:00:42


Post by: Likan Wolfsheim


I haven't played nearly enough 8th edition to have my own informed opinion about how a lot of 'bad' (or even 'good') units function, but I have been adamantly avoiding taking Cultists (or even Poxwalkers) for my Death Guard--at least 3 squads of 5 Plague marines for me!

I've also recently been trying to find a good role for 5 Blightlords to fill--and after seeing the BAO results I've since jumped to an 'I am now putting 10 Blightlords in every list' phase, even though I know that with pure DG I don't actually have the renegade knights that were involved in those wins. I just really like the thought of an actual, honest-to-G-d, full terminator squad dropping in and not immediately dying. Hopefully the 3 crawlers and 2 (going on 3) Bloat Drones are compelling enough targets once I move up to 2k points.

Edit:
Oh, and with my Deathwatch I've been trying to avoid souping with my Guardsmen--not even because I dislike allying with guard, but because I don't really like how the drab green uniforms and tanks of my guard look next to my white-armoured kill teams. Maybe if I'd stuck with the normal black scheme it'd look better. So this means I've just been using normal, non-FW Dreadnoughts as my long ranged anti-tank. I'd probably be better served by souping in heavy equipment (and my CP) with the ground pounders, though.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 10:08:47


Post by: Amishprn86


Tyranids Harpy...

B.c they have INSANE potential for huge damage, but they have almost 0 defenses.

They can Move 30"+Advance, Bomb, Shoot 2D3 S9 with AP and multi damage, then Charge, next turn, fallback > Bomb >Shoot > Charge.

If it just had -1 to hit like all other fliers, or at least 140pts compare to the 174pts, then it would be worth playing.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 10:52:43


Post by: Oguhmek


Trukk boyz - love the idea of driving right up to the enemy, disembark and kick some ass. Can't do that in 8th though.

Stompa. Love the model, I have two. 900 points a piece. Ahahahahaha haha ha.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 11:06:54


Post by: IronBrand


 Likan Wolfsheim wrote:
I haven't played nearly enough 8th edition to have my own informed opinion about how a lot of 'bad' (or even 'good') units function, but I have been adamantly avoiding taking Cultists (or even Poxwalkers) for my Death Guard--at least 3 squads of 5 Plague marines for me!

I've also recently been trying to find a good role for 5 Blightlords to fill--and after seeing the BAO results I've since jumped to an 'I am now putting 10 Blightlords in every list' phase, even though I know that with pure DG I don't actually have the renegade knights that were involved in those wins. I just really like the thought of an actual, honest-to-G-d, full terminator squad dropping in and not immediately dying. Hopefully the 3 crawlers and 2 (going on 3) Bloat Drones are compelling enough targets once I move up to 2k points.

Edit:
Oh, and with my Deathwatch I've been trying to avoid souping with my Guardsmen--not even because I dislike allying with guard, but because I don't really like how the drab green uniforms and tanks of my guard look next to my white-armoured kill teams. Maybe if I'd stuck with the normal black scheme it'd look better. So this means I've just been using normal, non-FW Dreadnoughts as my long ranged anti-tank. I'd probably be better served by souping in heavy equipment (and my CP) with the ground pounders, though.
I've hated poxwalkers since I first played with them when I came back to the game. They're just so boring.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 11:08:36


Post by: Odrankt


The Entire Necron army. More specifically; Monolith, Canoptek Spyder and Lychguard.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 11:15:21


Post by: BrianDavion


 Nazrak wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Prolly the 8th guy to say this but...

I like tactical squads.

I’m really enjoying this. The enthusiasm for the much-maligned Tactical Squad in particular, but this whole thread in general – it’s really cool to see some positivity on this board for a change, based on just downright thinking stuff *seems neat*, rather than any hardcore game-functionality concerns.


I agree it's nice to see so many people speaking up and having a unit they take not ebcause "the meta says" but because "it's fun and they like it"


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 11:54:27


Post by: AndrewGPaul


My Guard army is made up of 2nd edition metal Cadians, Praetorians and Catachans. That means all my infantgry squads have a heavy weapon team and a special weapon; including such stellar combinations as heavy bolter and flamer, or missile launcher and meltagun. Those were just point sinks for five editions.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 14:02:28


Post by: Bach


Table wrote:
 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.



Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.


They almost never get to do anything in 8E. It's relatively easy to knock down a profile to where it moves like molasses, can be avoid completely by faster armies, and needs a stragem for any reliability in CC, all for the low, low price of 172 pts.

It's barely playable. If rules remain unchanged, it needs like a 30-50 point reduction, similar to what was done with the Defiler. If not, they need to give it better rules to actually do what it's designed to do because right now, there are easily better choices to fill that role if you play any flavor of CSM.

Consider the new Armiger running at around 170 points with the sword and melta and it fills the same basic role. Same wounds, save, # of attacks, and Cc damage, but a lot faster, better weapon skill, and a decent ranged melta gun. The armiger is definitely an example of power creep but it gives little incentive to take a Maulerfiend aside from looks.

Tbh, daemon engines are in a bit of a bad spot. The 5++ and the wound regen hasn't felt to be worth the trade-off with Ws/Bs this edition.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 14:21:26


Post by: darkcloak


 Nazrak wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Prolly the 8th guy to say this but...

I like tactical squads.

I’m really enjoying this. The enthusiasm for the much-maligned Tactical Squad in particular, but this whole thread in general – it’s really cool to see some positivity on this board for a change, based on just downright thinking stuff *seems neat*, rather than any hardcore game-functionality concerns.


People say they're sooo bad, and well... they are, but... They're still awesome as hell. And really, if you just lower your expectations, Tactical Squads are quite good. They're hard as nails and relatively cheap and you don't mind when they die.

Every time I see a 'marine fix' thread I wanna burst in and say stuff like this, but I usually don't because Marine fixers are totally insaaaaaaane.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 14:31:40


Post by: bullyboy


 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I love everything thats bad.

Incubi
Wraithblades
Wraith Lords
Wraith Knights
Terminators
Actual Tactical Marines
Assault Marines
Crusader Marines
Black Templars in general
Grey Knights (everything)
Chaplains
Land Raiders

You name it, if it does close combat then I probably like it and it probably sucks so bad that you will lose games just thinking about taking them.


So basically, pretty much what I play, lol.

First army back to 40K was Iyanden spirit host, but I refuse to accept they suck.
A wraithlord with sword is only 113pts, if you can get him to hit something....that's 4 lascannon hits at -4AP (8 if you go all psytronome on him). I'm going to find a way to get 2 in my army (T8 10 wounds has some resiliency) if I can just throw in some other units that are more scary.
Also run wraithblades with axes. I find them very resilient when you cast Protect/Fortune on them. Like the wraithlords...they are slow however.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 14:34:56


Post by: Martel732


Every ba jump unit.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 14:38:35


Post by: GamerGuy


I love my Tactical Squads... I've painted up 50 Tacticals this year and love them despite their "sub-optimal" abilities on the field... They're fine. They're iconic.

I'm working on a Drop Pod list... Love the Concept, desperately trying to justify their cost... Combining Drop Pods with Tactical Marines is my plan for my next game... It makes me feel okay about bringing Guilliman and my Leviathan...

GamerGuy

-might just find someone to play 7th with me, lmao-


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 14:41:42


Post by: darkcloak


But, to be honest, I mostly like Tacs because of the fluff, any in game usefulness is really just icing on the cake.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 14:51:59


Post by: Stormonu


Anything marine (or Primaris) - including Grey Knights.

On the Maulerfiend, with the ability of weapons to do multiple points of damage, it really seems that any sort of monster/vehicle Regeneration should return at least D3 wounds, instead of 1.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 15:24:28


Post by: DrGiggles


 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Deff Dreads. Expensive in points, terrible shooting, slow, and underwhelming in damage for what you pay, they're one of the worst walkers out there. But dammit, they're one of my favorite looking models in the entire game so it's not gonna stop me from fielding three of them.


You took my choice so I'm going to go with Nobz. Great model and decent damage if they can get there in one piece but they are just too expensive for what you get currently.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 15:25:17


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


So far there weren't many bad units in 8th for me.
Well, the Helbrute is not very durable compared to my other DG stuff, but it's one of the best sources of heavy weapons and hits very hard in melee, too.
Rhinos are okay, they're simply not that needed anymore as everything is faster in 8th edition and it's no problem to foot slog.

Other than those, I used CSM (the unit) and Raptors which are said to be bad but they did well. Just like Bikers, who bring nice firepower to the table.
So in short, there are no really bad units in 8th for me. I might even try Mutilators at some point.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 15:45:33


Post by: KingCorpus


Logan on his sleigh.

He's trash but he is my trash.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 15:53:18


Post by: helgrenze


I like my 2 jump units.
Vanguard Vets with JP and LC led by a Jump Chappy with Plas pistol.
And Assault Marines with Chainswords/bolt pistols, with 2 plas pistols (1 on sgt) led by a LT with CS and Plas Pistol.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 15:56:16


Post by: Xenomancers


 Galas wrote:
 grouchoben wrote:
Terminators. I refuse to give up! The best I've come up with is 5 DW termis with power axes and SIA Combibolters. They do ... something.


The best loyalist terminators I have found, are Deathwing Knights (A beast in meele but very expensive and bad delivery options), and Cathapractii terminators with 1 Lighting claw+Assault Bolter.

I like SOT


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 16:49:32


Post by: Talinsin


GK Purifiers.
28pts for a Tactical Marine with a force sword, storm bolter, and 3" smite.
I think their 5th Ed incarnation was cool, fluffy, and reasonable. Currently it's like "Want to pay more for regular Grey Knights with no deep strike and a worse smite in elites? Purifiers may be the right unit for you!"
Still use them though, just cuz they're cool.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 17:03:24


Post by: FunJohn


I love Crisis Suits, but often I find that they cost way too much for what they can do.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 17:15:25


Post by: ChargerIIC


Space Marine Bikers. On paper they look like an excellent tactical option - melee, shooting and a massive movement that should let you get to exactly where the enemy line is weakest. I love that playstyle but it doesn't really exist in 40k - at least not in 8th edition. The closest you can get is deepstrike and counter deep strike and these guys are best at generally little other than running into enemy line and hoping the enemy doesn't just move past them.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 18:17:29


Post by: Niiru


NH Gunsmith wrote:Rhinos. Dear lord do I love my four Rhinos.


Is there something wrong with Rhinos? They're pretty much on par with all the other transport options really, as far as I can tell. They're a metal box that moves.


Bach wrote:
Table wrote:
 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.



Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.


They almost never get to do anything in 8E. It's relatively easy to knock down a profile to where it moves like molasses, can be avoid completely by faster armies, and needs a stragem for any reliability in CC, all for the low, low price of 172 pts.

It's barely playable. If rules remain unchanged, it needs like a 30-50 point reduction, similar to what was done with the Defiler. If not, they need to give it better rules to actually do what it's designed to do because right now, there are easily better choices to fill that role if you play any flavor of CSM.

Consider the new Armiger running at around 170 points with the sword and melta and it fills the same basic role. Same wounds, save, # of attacks, and Cc damage, but a lot faster, better weapon skill, and a decent ranged melta gun. The armiger is definitely an example of power creep but it gives little incentive to take a Maulerfiend aside from looks.

Tbh, daemon engines are in a bit of a bad spot. The 5++ and the wound regen hasn't felt to be worth the trade-off with Ws/Bs this edition.



Pretty sure this is either that you have a weird meta in your local games, or you're just playing the maulerfiend badly or without any other backup.

Maulerfiends aren't the most competitive option in the world, but they're far from being bad.

I mean you're comparing it with an Armiger, in an edition where all of the Knight options are pretty much overpowered. Which is why a lot of people don't like playing with them in friendly matches.

But this thread is about units that are truly terrible on the tabletop. If you compare say... Raptors or Warp Talons (or tacs, or deff dreads, or killa kanz, etc etc) with the Maulerfiend, you'll hopefully realise that the 'fiends are actually pretty decent. They're at least average (though I'd rate them as slightly better than average). It's just that the Knight lineup is terribly priced, and needs to go up by a lot.

I mean my maulerfiend is 150pts, if you drop it by 50pts that would end up as a 100 point model. Not saying that I would complain, I'd love that. I'd take 3 in every list. But so would every other Chaos player, because it would be HIDEOUSLY underpriced.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 19:18:14


Post by: HoundsofDemos


Rhinos (and many transports in general) are over costed and kinda not as needed as they used to be. Especially with them losing firing points and a lot of units being faster than previous editions, tracked transports are in a pretty bad place.

Drop pods are also not worth as much as they used to be either.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 19:19:52


Post by: Stux


HoundsofDemos wrote:
Rhinos (and many transports in general) are over costed and kinda not as needed as they used to be. Especially with them losing firing points and a lot of units being faster than previous editions, tracked transports are in a pretty bad place.

Drop pods are also not worth as much as they used to be either.


Oh man do I wish Space Marine drop pods were worth taking. And that I could put Primaris in them.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 19:22:09


Post by: ChargerIIC


Niiru wrote:
NH Gunsmith wrote:Rhinos. Dear lord do I love my four Rhinos.


Is there something wrong with Rhinos? They're pretty much on par with all the other transport options really, as far as I can tell. They're a metal box that moves.



I like Rhinos, but I'm paying 87+ pts for a metal box that has the tactical value of dead rock after the marines deploy from it, can't transport any of the new primaris units that actually like to be up close and personal (The fact that most lists will have to fill them with Tac marines or assault marines really hurts their viability), and isn't any more survivable that other faction's transport.

It also has the same problems as the bikes - there is so much deep strike/counter deep strike that a jetpack for your favorite oldmarine is probably the cheaper and better option. Why put a metal box that is almost always in LOS turn one and risk it blowing up before you get a turn when you can just deep strike and ignore the problem?

You see this a lot in how Rhinos show up in tourney lists. They are almost always just escorting vulnerable characters up the middle of the board. The two exceptions I know of are World Eater rhino rush and DeathWatch Frag Cannon rush, both of which pretty much focus on winning the roll off and being steamrolled if they lose.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 19:37:17


Post by: Elbows


My main issue is that there are a lot of units which have never really been popular, and of these - some suck, but because they've never been popular, they're unlikely to get any attention.

I was on the verge of ordering three Eldar Support Platforms...before glancing at the rules. They're beyond atrocious - weaker and more garbage than comparable units. So bad I'd have a really hard time justifying them. However it's a unit no one ever talks about, so it's unlikely they'll get a points reduction or a fix to their weapons.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 19:40:08


Post by: Insectum7


^Rhino is not 87+ points.

Plus their tactical value is far, far from zero after models have deployed. Great LOS blockers, wall builders, overwatch soakers and tie-up-unit models. Man, Rhinos are fun!

Q: What's the best way to silence a 300-whatever-point Telemon Dreadnought?
A: Charge a Rhino into it!!


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 19:48:23


Post by: HoundsofDemos


 Insectum7 wrote:
^Rhino is not 87+ points.

Plus their tactical value is far, far from zero after models have deployed. Great LOS blockers, wall builders, overwatch soakers and tie-up-unit models. Man, Rhinos are fun!

Q: What's the best way to silence a 300-whatever-point Telemon Dreadnought?
A: Charge a Rhino into it!!


Compared to previous editions Rhinos are pretty bad. That combined with the fact that the thing you can put in it has never been weaker means it's in a pretty bad place.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 19:56:38


Post by: Lemondish


 ChargerIIC wrote:

I like Rhinos, but I'm paying 87+ pts for a metal box that has the tactical value of dead rock after the marines deploy from it, can't transport any of the new primaris units that actually like to be up close and personal (The fact that most lists will have to fill them with Tac marines or assault marines really hurts their viability), and isn't any more survivable that other faction's transport.


I think you're conflating 'tactical value' with 'lethality' too much here. There's boxloads of tactical value in a box that is entirely ignored because it already delivered something. It can eat overwatch, block movement, block LoS, and harass all day long because nobody will target it.

There's value in there above a dead rock Not much, and it's situational, but it's there.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 20:16:23


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Have to agree. Rhinos are at least annoying and compared to last edition they're actually pretty durable. And I like my two combibolters - they don't do much against anything in power armor, but you can annoy some Dark Eldar or Tau with them .


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 20:30:16


Post by: Not Online!!!


Does the Despoiler still count?
Other then that regular CSM just like tacticals, albeit the "better"* stratagems do help them. Though really terrible they aren't, unlike the helldrake, which i don't own.

Other than that my militia units for R&H and their accomanying Vanquishers and Chimeras. Vanquishers for obvious reasons, and the chimera for beeing often 2x-3x as expensive as the squad delivered from it.

*(funnily it's always the same few stratagems, that make half the regular csm codex tick and ofcourse the same faction buffs generally that make csm worth fielding.)


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 20:31:15


Post by: thegreatchimp


Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 20:38:14


Post by: Not Online!!!


 thegreatchimp wrote:
Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.


I thought i forgot something. ...
Then again ever since 8th i did not field a single termintaor squad, even though they are probably my best looking models (paintwise)


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 20:51:00


Post by: Bach


Niiru wrote:
NH Gunsmith wrote:Rhinos. Dear lord do I love my four Rhinos.


Is there something wrong with Rhinos? They're pretty much on par with all the other transport options really, as far as I can tell. They're a metal box that moves.


Bach wrote:
Table wrote:
 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.



Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.


They almost never get to do anything in 8E. It's relatively easy to knock down a profile to where it moves like molasses, can be avoid completely by faster armies, and needs a stragem for any reliability in CC, all for the low, low price of 172 pts.

It's barely playable. If rules remain unchanged, it needs like a 30-50 point reduction, similar to what was done with the Defiler. If not, they need to give it better rules to actually do what it's designed to do because right now, there are easily better choices to fill that role if you play any flavor of CSM.

Consider the new Armiger running at around 170 points with the sword and melta and it fills the same basic role. Same wounds, save, # of attacks, and Cc damage, but a lot faster, better weapon skill, and a decent ranged melta gun. The armiger is definitely an example of power creep but it gives little incentive to take a Maulerfiend aside from looks.

Tbh, daemon engines are in a bit of a bad spot. The 5++ and the wound regen hasn't felt to be worth the trade-off with Ws/Bs this edition.



Pretty sure this is either that you have a weird meta in your local games, or you're just playing the maulerfiend badly or without any other backup.

Maulerfiends aren't the most competitive option in the world, but they're far from being bad.

I mean you're comparing it with an Armiger, in an edition where all of the Knight options are pretty much overpowered. Which is why a lot of people don't like playing with them in friendly matches.

But this thread is about units that are truly terrible on the tabletop. If you compare say... Raptors or Warp Talons (or tacs, or deff dreads, or killa kanz, etc etc) with the Maulerfiend, you'll hopefully realise that the 'fiends are actually pretty decent. They're at least average (though I'd rate them as slightly better than average). It's just that the Knight lineup is terribly priced, and needs to go up by a lot.

I mean my maulerfiend is 150pts, if you drop it by 50pts that would end up as a 100 point model. Not saying that I would complain, I'd love that. I'd take 3 in every list. But so would every other Chaos player, because it would be HIDEOUSLY underpriced.



This is probably just a difference in meta. I don't know of anyone I play with that would consider the armiger a deal breaker in a friendly game. As for playing Maulerfiends well, the only remote thing they do well is maybe buy your better units an extra turn from 1-3shots of anti tank and in my opinion, that's not worth 150+ points. Plague drones can do that better and for a lot cheaper. As for support/strategems, they're usually toast before any of that comes into play. They're so bad they make Defilers look good. However, if what they do works for you then bravo, keep rocking them. If that's what you have to play with, I get it, but if you've tried others things that fill the role that the Maulerfiend fills, then it's easy to see just how disappointing they really are.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 21:09:09


Post by: cmspano


Yeh, armigers aren't OP in any way. They're decent and fun, nothing more. They're like dreadnoughts but not bad.

Warglaives are kind of a not-glass cannon in that they're really dangerous if you ignore them but they aren't that difficult to kill.

Helverins are kind of similar. They CAN be dangerous, but that -1 AP really leaves it up to needing bad luck on the opponent's side. Helverins are good at chipping the last handful of wounds off something your lascannons have done most of the work on. They're good at tagging T6 guard vehicles like basilisks(long range, good movement to get LOS on them hiding), acceptable against T7, bad against T8. Generally I'll fail 1 save a turn to a helverin on a Leman Russ. And my Leman Russ costs less points and will usually drop a Helverin to half or lower if I'm a little lucky.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/18 22:36:40


Post by: ClassicCarraway


Warp Talons. Love the concept of half daemon hunters from the warp, but man are they awful and expensive.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 01:09:29


Post by: Table


 Bach wrote:
Table wrote:
 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.



Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.


They almost never get to do anything in 8E. It's relatively easy to knock down a profile to where it moves like molasses, can be avoid completely by faster armies, and needs a stragem for any reliability in CC, all for the low, low price of 172 pts.

It's barely playable. If rules remain unchanged, it needs like a 30-50 point reduction, similar to what was done with the Defiler. If not, they need to give it better rules to actually do what it's designed to do because right now, there are easily better choices to fill that role if you play any flavor of CSM.

Consider the new Armiger running at around 170 points with the sword and melta and it fills the same basic role. Same wounds, save, # of attacks, and Cc damage, but a lot faster, better weapon skill, and a decent ranged melta gun. The armiger is definitely an example of power creep but it gives little incentive to take a Maulerfiend aside from looks.

Tbh, daemon engines are in a bit of a bad spot. The 5++ and the wound regen hasn't felt to be worth the trade-off with Ws/Bs this edition.


Fair enough. Thanks for elaborating.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 04:02:08


Post by: darkcloak


HoundsofDemos wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Rhino is not 87+ points.

Plus their tactical value is far, far from zero after models have deployed. Great LOS blockers, wall builders, overwatch soakers and tie-up-unit models. Man, Rhinos are fun!

Q: What's the best way to silence a 300-whatever-point Telemon Dreadnought?
A: Charge a Rhino into it!!


Compared to previous editions Rhinos are pretty bad. That combined with the fact that the thing you can put in it has never been weaker means it's in a pretty bad place.


Whaaaat?! Rhinos are awesome! Even at 70+ points they are the bee's knees bro!


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 04:03:59


Post by: xeen


I love my scarab occult terminators. But they are sooooooo over coated.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 04:40:13


Post by: Table


 xeen wrote:
I love my scarab occult terminators. But they are sooooooo over coated.


For the price paid, all terminators should have 4 wounds.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 12:35:15


Post by: tneva82


 Oguhmek wrote:
Stompa. Love the model, I have two. 900 points a piece. Ahahahahaha haha ha.


Ditto. 2. At least I can paint them in different colours for ork codex(I hope they give klan traits even for lone stompas ala eldars...Otherwise that requires 3000 pts detachment )

And give me your stompas! 900 pts? I pay nearly 1k ;-)


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 13:03:42


Post by: chrispy1991


Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 13:10:04


Post by: lliu


 ZergSmasher wrote:
With Tau, it's probably my Stormsurge and my Ghostkeel. They were both incredibly good in 7th, but a bit lackluster in 8th. The thing that keeps the Stormsurge down in 8th is the lack of the <BATTLESUIT> keyword, meaning it can't pass wounds off to drones and has to just hope it can roll 4++ saves well. Everyone tells me to run more Riptides instead, but I stubbornly insist on bringing out the Stormsurge. The Ghostkeel just costs too many points and its special stealth drones are too easy to just delete, but I love the model and thus run it sometimes. It has done good work for me at times, too.


I learned about this first hand. Haha we were playing a 1250 with my guard, and everything the Tau had, including a broadside, a stormsurge, and many many markerlights, and my hellhammer survived around 4 rounds of shooting before dying. In the meantime, though, I would've killed the stormsurge so many times over if it hadn't been for the 4++. It's actually rly rly good.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 13:10:43


Post by: Not Online!!!


 chrispy1991 wrote:
Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.


Armored or Scout sentinels?
Scouts seem adequate albeit very glasscannonlike.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 13:14:20


Post by: Lemondish


 chrispy1991 wrote:
Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.


Hmm, not sure I agree here. Especially in ITC, where Scout Sentinels are really fairly good for scoring points with things like recon.

In friendlier games, armoured Tallarn Sentinels are actually pretty fun and (mostly) reliable.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 13:23:13


Post by: Amishprn86


I really like the Power Lifter Sentinels. Tho i wouldnt take them to GT's, just a cool idea for them.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 15:31:05


Post by: chrispy1991


Lemondish wrote:
 chrispy1991 wrote:
Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.


Hmm, not sure I agree here. Especially in ITC, where Scout Sentinels are really fairly good for scoring points with things like recon.

In friendlier games, armoured Tallarn Sentinels are actually pretty fun and (mostly) reliable.


In a tallarn list, for the price of 2 armored sentinels you can squeeze in a basilisk or hellhound, which both offer the same or more total wounds, same or better toughness, faster speed, and far superior firepower.

Scout sentinels lost most of their utility when turn 1 deep striking outside your deployment zone ceased to be a thing. Their recon ability doesn't make up for how easily they are destroyed. If I want a fast objective taker I'll just move and advance a squad of guardsmen twice in a single turn with an order.

Sentinels are a sub-optimal pick for IG players no matter how you slice it. I've only ever once been able to accomplish anything meaningful with them and I have used them in a lot of games.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 19:40:32


Post by: wallygator


The tyranid haruspex. i really love how brutal the maw looks, and his devouring- self healing concept but he almost never makes back his points.
We play with a lot of terrain so he is difficult to move around the table ,as he needs a huge space to pass between buildings/barricades and so. He sometimes ends up clearing the spaces he can reach easy and is a wasted unit for the rest of the battle because he needs to many turns to run his way back to go through another gap. But my forward battle planning is also a bit to blame for this..

and as mentioned above, the stompa ( and 90% of the ork codex) but this argument will soon be invalid i hope..


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/19 19:46:38


Post by: Niiru


 Bach wrote:


This is probably just a difference in meta. I don't know of anyone I play with that would consider the armiger a deal breaker in a friendly game. As for playing Maulerfiends well, the only remote thing they do well is maybe buy your better units an extra turn from 1-3shots of anti tank and in my opinion, that's not worth 150+ points. Plague drones can do that better and for a lot cheaper. As for support/strategems, they're usually toast before any of that comes into play. They're so bad they make Defilers look good. However, if what they do works for you then bravo, keep rocking them. If that's what you have to play with, I get it, but if you've tried others things that fill the role that the Maulerfiend fills, then it's easy to see just how disappointing they really are.



Not so much Armigers, they're not so bad, but the Knights are generally seen as a bit... unfriendly to play. Armigers though are alright, though still a little underpriced. Or rather, standard dreadnought/helbrute options are overpriced.

However I've never lost a Maulerfiend to 1-3 shots of anti tank. Your opponents must have magic dice!

On average it takes about 12 lascannon shots to take down a maulerfiend, and if my opponent is fielding 12 lascannons and they're all using their whole turn taking out a single maulerfiend then thats what...? ...500 points of anti-tank being used to take out 150 points of monster? Sounds alright to me.

There might be other weapons that take it out easier... I'm guessing that Knights have something that can 1-shot a maulerfiend, but that just brings me back to the original point that Knights don't really fit well into standard 40k games.

Still not saying that the Mauler is competitive, just putting some perspective on things. Still don't know how you managed to lose one to a single anti-tank shot, let alone 3.


Edit: Just to add to this so I don't sound totally argumentative, that I do also own an Warglaive Armiger (currently unbuilt) that I plan to run alongside my Maulerfiend. Both together will be a pretty nasty distraction I expect.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/20 21:41:46


Post by: Bach


In my example, the Maulerfiends role would be to distract on behalf of a more capable unit, let's say Magnus. So the 1-3 shots may have been aimed at Magnus but instead aimed at a maulerfiend. And that's really the most you can expect out of the unit, for now. The problem is, there are units that can do that for much cheaper or units, like an armiger, that are similarly priced and so much more capable at doing the same thing. It's just not a good time in 40k to be a CSM daemon engine. They are all suffering to some degree.

Maulerfiends are fun in fluffy games and run I them when teaching friends how to play 40k because the models are so awesome. I sometimes run them in pick up games too but when asked how competitive my list is, I simply answer " Dude, I'm running Maulerfiends," and then everyone is on the same page.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/20 21:44:43


Post by: ChargerIIC


Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.

I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/20 21:49:03


Post by: ClockworkZion


 ChargerIIC wrote:
Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.

I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.

Yeah, Chaplains have a few problems:
-Chapter Masters do their job better
-They can't reroll hits in melee
-They can't give Black Templars psyker defense.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 00:34:38


Post by: BrianDavion


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.

I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.

Yeah, Chaplains have a few problems:
-Chapter Masters do their job better
-They can't reroll hits in melee
-They can't give Black Templars psyker defense.


Maybe they should consider a differant approuch to chaplains in the next edition (assuming 9th is mostly an evolution of 8th) and have Chaplains grant a re-roll of armor saves.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 01:15:24


Post by: Niiru


BrianDavion wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.

I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.

Yeah, Chaplains have a few problems:
-Chapter Masters do their job better
-They can't reroll hits in melee
-They can't give Black Templars psyker defense.


Maybe they should consider a differant approuch to chaplains in the next edition (assuming 9th is mostly an evolution of 8th) and have Chaplains grant a re-roll of armor saves.


Or a 6+ feel no pain, much like a painboy.

Would make sense representing the ‘fervour and faith in the emperors will’ etc.

Would be pretty strong for a chaos force, though less good for vanilla marines as-is as they already have a trait that gives that I believe. But that can be changed. I think the chaplain giving it is fluffier.

Reroll on saves is not a bad idea, but would be much easier to be exploited with things like storm shields et al.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 01:22:19


Post by: ClockworkZion


Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 01:31:58


Post by: Wunzlez


Meganobz
Killa Kans
Deff Dreads
Warbikers
Battlewagons
Bubble Chukkas...

Actually anything other than Boyz.

I think I just like losing.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 01:44:04


Post by: BrianDavion


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!


that's pretty specific, I like some sort of save re-rolls as it's a general solid one that'll be useful in every game, and address some of the space marine durability complaints, and thematicly a chaplain reinforcing a group of marines moving up through hostile fire to capture a key objective feels right.

but let's try not to derail this thread... I'll start another in proposed rules..


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 04:23:12


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 thegreatchimp wrote:
Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.


Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?

Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.

Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.



All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.

Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.

I like Rapiers, they're cool.

Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.

I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 12:59:19


Post by: Median Trace


I agree about how bad normal terminators look. But I must admit that I really love the aesthetic of Centurions. I understand the most people dislike the look of Centurions. But something about their design appeals to me. I wish they were better costed this edition. I always end up taking them out of a list because the their cost is ridiculous.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 13:40:46


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 thegreatchimp wrote:
Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.


Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?

Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.

Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.



All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.

Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.

I like Rapiers, they're cool.

Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.

I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.


No. You are wrong. Terminators look great.
Discussing taste is very useful.



What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 14:17:36


Post by: Xenomancers


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!

Personally I think Chaplains should give a fearless bubble and reroll charge bubbles.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 14:25:41


Post by: ChargerIIC


 Xenomancers wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!

Personally I think Chaplains should give a fearless bubble and reroll charge bubbles.


If the dozens of threads about SM psychic powers and strategem have shown anything it's that the two things that individual marines don't face very often is 1) failing both of their ATSKNF rolls and 2) Being a viable target for anything mortal wound related.

The 6+ FNP would be good, but I'd rather have a reroll of CC wound rolls instead of the current CC toHit rolls. There isn't much in the SM codex that grants re-rolls to wound outside of lieutenants and it would help mitigate the STR4 AP0 melee attacks that most marines come equipped with.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 15:29:16


Post by: Lemondish


Niiru wrote:


Or a 6+ feel no pain, much like a painboy.

Would make sense representing the ‘fervour and faith in the emperors will’ etc.

Would be pretty strong for a chaos force, though less good for vanilla marines as-is as they already have a trait that gives that I believe. But that can be changed. I think the chaplain giving it is fluffier.

Reroll on saves is not a bad idea, but would be much easier to be exploited with things like storm shields et al.


I feel like a FNP roll should be the job of the Apothecary.

The Chaplain should be an offensive melee helper.

I'd say +1 S, +1 attack in combat.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 17:13:37


Post by: ChargerIIC


Lemondish wrote:
Niiru wrote:


Or a 6+ feel no pain, much like a painboy.

Would make sense representing the ‘fervour and faith in the emperors will’ etc.

Would be pretty strong for a chaos force, though less good for vanilla marines as-is as they already have a trait that gives that I believe. But that can be changed. I think the chaplain giving it is fluffier.

Reroll on saves is not a bad idea, but would be much easier to be exploited with things like storm shields et al.


I feel like a FNP roll should be the job of the Apothecary.

The Chaplain should be an offensive melee helper.

I'd say +1 S, +1 attack in combat.


+1 S would be a massive bonus I'd love to have. 6" of Ork smacking


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 19:29:13


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Spoiler:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 thegreatchimp wrote:
Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.


Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?

Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.

Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.



All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.

Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.

I like Rapiers, they're cool.

Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.

I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.


No. You are wrong. Terminators look great.
Discussing taste is very useful.



Well, I'm curious, what makes them look good? I've heard that they're like the best models in the SM line from more than a few people, and I have to wonder if we're looking at the same dog-headed, hunchbacked, head-between-the-shoulders, Terminators.

It is my opinion that the best model in the Space Marine line is the Vindicator. That's a model that's really suffering from apathy in the rules department; the Demolisher Cannon just doesn't act or feel like a giant cannon that hurls slow, heavy shells full of explosives.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/21 21:12:25


Post by: Insectum7


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Spoiler:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 thegreatchimp wrote:
Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.


Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?

Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.

Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.



All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.

Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.

I like Rapiers, they're cool.

Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.

I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.


No. You are wrong. Terminators look great.
Discussing taste is very useful.



Well, I'm curious, what makes them look good? I've heard that they're like the best models in the SM line from more than a few people, and I have to wonder if we're looking at the same dog-headed, hunchbacked, head-between-the-shoulders, Terminators.

It is my opinion that the best model in the Space Marine line is the Vindicator. That's a model that's really suffering from apathy in the rules department; the Demolisher Cannon just doesn't act or feel like a giant cannon that hurls slow, heavy shells full of explosives.


Aww. . . those poor Terminators.

Although I do think the current models are not the best. However the look they are meant to represent, the root design, is fantastic imo. I actually prefer the older metal models, or the metal Chaos Terminators, which look fantastic. I have a fantasy of modeling my own version and getting it 3D printed at some point.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 00:17:39


Post by: hyperfocal


I'm tempted to say the T'au Tidewall Shieldline because it is really cool, and really terrible in all possible ways -- it takes a detachment slot, breaks buffs, can't overwatch, and blows up at the worst possible time. However, I love my fusion Ghostkeel more. Sure, it can't hit the broad side of a barn but the model is SO fething cool...


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 01:00:17


Post by: MalfunctBot


 xeen wrote:
I love my scarab occult terminators. But they are sooooooo over coated.


You should've thinned your paints more.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 01:19:38


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Tonnes,

I'm not going to say 8th edition ones just ones through the ages.


Bezerkers always played them
Banshees always played them
Celestines always played them
Kammandos always played them
Defilers always played them
Raveners always played them


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 06:49:35


Post by: Captain Brown


Exorcists

Ork Truks

Rhinos

Commissars


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 07:31:56


Post by: Quickjager


My entire army. Except the Dreadknight and naughts.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 14:12:08


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


 Quickjager wrote:
My entire army. Except the Dreadknight and naughts.


Tell me about it.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 18:07:37


Post by: SemperMortis


BrianDavion wrote:
Everyone's got a unit like this, it's called "bad" and suboptimal but you keep using it because to you it's part of your armies quirky charm. the mathhammer players keep telling you you suyck for taking it etc. but you just keep plunking it down..

For me it's the basic tactical marine, sure scouts might be a bit more efficant, but damnit, I feel wrong playing Marines without a squad of two of Tacs.


I play orkz so....basically any unit besides boyz and a couple of outliers like stormboyz and HQ units are considered bad. So I love my warbikers even though they are absolutely terrible, I love taking them along with some DeffKoptas which make Warbikes look appropriately priced


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/22 18:21:12


Post by: Alcibiades


FunJohn wrote:
I love Crisis Suits, but often I find that they cost way too much for what they can do.


I've been thinking abour this, and I think crisis suits are priced the way they are for two reasons.

1. An appropriately equipped crisis suit has the same firepower as a squad of stealth suits and can deep strike, bur costs less.

2. Command and Control Node. Crisis suits can be taken in large numbers, and hence benefit most from this stratagem. And OMG the amount of damane that a large squad of crisis suits does with Command Control Node activated is unbelievable. I have a squad of 7, equipped with a variety of weapons -- not specialized for any role in particular (five fusion blasters, some missile pods, burst cannons and so on) -- and they'll kill almost anything short of a knight (which they will cripple however), sometimes several anythings.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 00:32:24


Post by: Kias


The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.

Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 02:46:47


Post by: ClockworkZion


Kias wrote:
The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.

Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.

Thousand Sons or Tzeentch Daemons makes it even better with it having the Daemon keyword meaning you can throw some Deamon keyworded buffs via psychic powers.

Honestly I feel like it might be one of the few perfectly balanced models in the game. It's exactly where it should be without breaking the game in any direction.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 02:54:00


Post by: Elbows


The Defiler (well, my vision of it) is on my to-do list when I can find the donor model cheap enough. It's one of those units you'd just toss Daemon Forge on most turns as well. It had a point reduction in the codex, and again in chapter approved to a quite reasonable level.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 03:11:27


Post by: Quasistellar


Space marine tanks in general, but specifically the Land Raider. Always loved the WW1 look of it.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 06:51:39


Post by: Elbows


I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 07:45:11


Post by: Spoletta


I play Tyranids, so for many things i'm spoiled in that almost whatever i take is good but:

1) I always loved hormagaunts, they are what made me take up tyranids and 40K. In 8th though, they are finally a good model to play, so i don't think that it is good for this thread.

2) Warriors. The same, in 8th you can play them without gimping yourself, but here's the catch... i also bring the prime! Now, that is an overcosted model!

3) Maleceptor. He sort of does it's work, but even if he didn't i wouldn't leave him home because he is daddy's brainy bug.

4) Walkrant. Yes, paying 43 more points to make it winged may be the best choice, but i don't like the winged model. Also i never bring more than one, because more than one tyrant at that scale is murdering the fluff. I think that only in the devastation of Baal there were multiple tyrants, but that was one of the largest conflicts in 40k history (about 20.000 space marines killed).


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 10:40:54


Post by: ValentineGames


Is this "bad" in terms of what the individual thinks or believes.
Or are we talking "bad" in terms of what the community labels something and demands you acknowledge how bad it is?


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 11:12:49


Post by: BrianDavion


ValentineGames wrote:
Is this "bad" in terms of what the individual thinks or believes.
Or are we talking "bad" in terms of what the community labels something and demands you acknowledge how bad it is?


eaither or really, although yeah sometimes the pronouncements of a unit as bad coming from down on high tend to be silly.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 16:47:04


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 16:49:04


Post by: Cothonian


Veteran squad with three Flamers and a Heavy Flamer run with an officer inside a Chimera. Not exactly points efficient, but absolutely wild when you get in range.

That, and I want to run Ratlings. I just need to finally get the models...


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 17:24:55


Post by: Insectum7


Spoletta wrote:
I play Tyranids, so for many things i'm spoiled in that almost whatever i take is good but:

1) I always loved hormagaunts, they are what made me take up tyranids and 40K. In 8th though, they are finally a good model to play, so i don't think that it is good for this thread.

2) Warriors. The same, in 8th you can play them without gimping yourself, but here's the catch... i also bring the prime! Now, that is an overcosted model!

3) Maleceptor. He sort of does it's work, but even if he didn't i wouldn't leave him home because he is daddy's brainy bug.

4) Walkrant. Yes, paying 43 more points to make it winged may be the best choice, but i don't like the winged model. Also i never bring more than one, because more than one tyrant at that scale is murdering the fluff. I think that only in the devastation of Baal there were multiple tyrants, but that was one of the largest conflicts in 40k history (about 20.000 space marines killed).


100% with you on the walkrant. I love that model, and only really want to bring one of them to a fight. I'm really not a fan of the flyrant model either. It lacks the gravitas of the foot model.

I also like Warriors and the Prime, and yeah, the Prime is worth it if you're bringing Warriors, but It's a pretty lackluster unit itself.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 19:26:33


Post by: Excommunicatus


cosmicsoybean wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Zarakynel, or as I call her - The Violet Heart.

Nearly 700pts, She's massive, hard to hide and fragile


I disagree, at least in a mono slaanesh army, she pulls her weight quite well. drop her, kill pretty much anything in 1 round and she forces the enemy to put all of their firepower into her, and if they don't kill her shes going to be deleting anything she touches. Basically forces them to pick killing her, or ignoring the 100 daemonettes putting out like 300 attacks speeding towards them.


That partly chimes with my experience, only in my experience She gets every heavy weapon in the opposing army in the face and dies turn 1.

Her point cost is way, way, way too high for a distraction unit that is only there to give your Daemonettes (which can be hidden relatively easily anyway) a single turn of respite. IMO. If you consider what you could have brought instead, Her value drops even more. Again, IMO.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 20:07:05


Post by: Elbows


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.

PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/23 21:44:08


Post by: Kelligula


 Elbows wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.

PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)


I think you're mistaking the Executioner with the Punisher. That or I'm not getting the right value out of my Plasma cannon.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/24 01:45:35


Post by: HoundsofDemos


Pretty much the entire Inquisition line is pretty bad right now. Which makes me said because even though they were a half assed faction in 7th, GW actually gave them rules that worked for them being a very small ally faction.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/24 02:15:10


Post by: Spoletta


 Elbows wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.

PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)


Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/24 08:27:04


Post by: Not Online!!!


Spoletta wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.

PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)



Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.


Honestly to problem lies with the deomlisher cannon itself, not the vindicator. Leman Russ demolishers are technically supperior to the Vindicator ones but suffer from the range. d3 is not a particulary huge ammount of shots and the price you pay for it is in my opinion off regardless of faction.
I also don't think that leman russes need a revisit rather bring the marine tanks in line. Mainly something that supports a fire and manouvre playstyle, like machine spirit.


Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/24 10:22:07


Post by: BrianDavion


I'd definatly love to see POTMS added to ALL Marine vehicles


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/24 15:00:01


Post by: Kias


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Kias wrote:
The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.

Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.

Thousand Sons or Tzeentch Daemons makes it even better with it having the Daemon keyword meaning you can throw some Deamon keyworded buffs via psychic powers.

Honestly I feel like it might be one of the few perfectly balanced models in the game. It's exactly where it should be without breaking the game in any direction.


Hah! That is actually a very valid point. They have been garbage in previous editions, but now, I agree, it is probably what I think of as one of my most balanced units.

Not Online!!! wrote:

...
Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.


Oh yeah, the Hades Autocannon is one of my biggest pet peeves in the Chaos arsenal. It is close to being good but just needs 1 more AP or a couple more shots. Even just a change to an Assault weapon would help so the Helldrake or Forgefiend can move with it. The forgefiend is actually pretty reasonably priced, but those wicked looking Hades Autocannon arms just fall short even with Daemonforge helping the shots connect and wound. The only niche they really have is hitting those units that end up with a 4+ invuln anyway so the AP doesn't matter, but they just don't quite put out enough shots even in those situations for the cost. I would almost always just rather have oblits for dps or a Defiler out for tanking.

And the Forgefiend just looks so cool too. I really hope they get some love. I would personally prefer a weight of fire solution as it looks like a unit that should be able to pump out non-stop shooting for days.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/24 16:30:33


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 Elbows wrote:
Spoiler:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.

PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)


That's a Punisher. The Space Marines don't even necessarily have to beat the IG in an up-and-up tank battle, since tanks are the IG's whole thing, but they need to be able to adequately support Space Marine infantry.


Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoletta wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.

PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)



Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.


Honestly to problem lies with the deomlisher cannon itself, not the vindicator. Leman Russ demolishers are technically supperior to the Vindicator ones but suffer from the range. d3 is not a particulary huge ammount of shots and the price you pay for it is in my opinion off regardless of faction.
I also don't think that leman russes need a revisit rather bring the marine tanks in line. Mainly something that supports a fire and manouvre playstyle, like machine spirit.

Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.


Leman Russes do need a revisit, because they're at the top of a trickle down problem. If you try to correct the problems with the former 5" blast weapons, then the Leman Russ tanks and their fire-twice rule gets in your way. Also, a comprehensive vehicle re-work would necessarily include them.

The idea that turrets negate the -1 to hit from moving isn't a bad idea, though, which might give turreted tanks greater differentiation from assault guns, and give them a more active role in maneuver.

Spoletta wrote:
Spoiler:
 Elbows wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)


The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.

I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.


(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.

PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)


Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.


The thing with the Demolisher cannon is that it doesn't act like a giant demolition gun. I think a superior incarnation would be to have more shots with lower damage; it would retain AV and anti-structure effectiveness, with 2d6 @ D3, and would be effective at flattening elite units and taking a chunk out of light units, like a gun that fires a low velocity trashcan full of high explosives should be.

WIth the extraordinarily low shot output, it's not useful against infantry targets at all. And against vehicles, there's no advantage to being S10 [because GW decided that T6/7/8 for tanks was a better idea than T7/8/9].



What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/24 20:26:26


Post by: Not Online!!!


Kias wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Kias wrote:
The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.

Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.

Thousand Sons or Tzeentch Daemons makes it even better with it having the Daemon keyword meaning you can throw some Deamon keyworded buffs via psychic powers.

Honestly I feel like it might be one of the few perfectly balanced models in the game. It's exactly where it should be without breaking the game in any direction.


Hah! That is actually a very valid point. They have been garbage in previous editions, but now, I agree, it is probably what I think of as one of my most balanced units.

Not Online!!! wrote:

...
Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.


Oh yeah, the Hades Autocannon is one of my biggest pet peeves in the Chaos arsenal. It is close to being good but just needs 1 more AP or a couple more shots. Even just a change to an Assault weapon would help so the Helldrake or Forgefiend can move with it. The forgefiend is actually pretty reasonably priced, but those wicked looking Hades Autocannon arms just fall short even with Daemonforge helping the shots connect and wound. The only niche they really have is hitting those units that end up with a 4+ invuln anyway so the AP doesn't matter, but they just don't quite put out enough shots even in those situations for the cost. I would almost always just rather have oblits for dps or a Defiler out for tanking.

And the Forgefiend just looks so cool too. I really hope they get some love. I would personally prefer a weight of fire solution as it looks like a unit that should be able to pump out non-stop shooting for days.


The hades autocannon needs to be on a bs3+ Plattform. Or a change from heavy to assult.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/25 00:14:28


Post by: IanVanCheese


Another vote for the Monolith. Stupid space Tolberone. I adore the model, but it's basically useless atm.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/25 00:22:08


Post by: badguyshaveallthefun


Adeptus Custodes Land Raiders.

Hell any Land Raider for that matter.

They're just so cool and thematic. All of them could use a points decrease.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/28 00:07:30


Post by: Ezki


Storm guardians. I just love the idea of the models. Like to think them as "eldar militia" to be thrown at the enemy, even though it does not fit with the Eldar fluff very well. At least that's how I see them in my army.
I converted the models back in 5th edition and put them on shelf, where they stayed all the way until 8th edition. They are still not good at all, but still wield them every now and then. As a decent bonus they get couple of fusion guns.


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/28 08:56:56


Post by: kombatwombat


My lovingly converted Fellblade.

People on the internet love to min-max and hyperbolise about how ‘this or that unit is so bad, if you take it you’ll lose’ when talking about something like a Manticore. The Fellblade is the only unit I have played that genuinely will lose you games.

If you take it and your opponent takes a Shadowsword, pray like mad for first turn. If you get it, you might be able to significantly damage the Shadowsword before your Fellblade goes up in a puff of smoke, or Mortal Wounds.

If your opponent goes first, or plays Tallarn, you basically get to say ‘Well I’m playing with a 944pt handicap, but your Shadowsword can’t shoot anything else first turn’. Playing with a Fellblade is 40k Hard Mode.

But god damn, it is the best looking kit Citadel makes, even before my conversion work on it, so I will keep fielding it!


What "bad" unit do you love @ 2018/09/28 13:08:09


Post by: TheMostWize


Grey Knights....











The entire army.