Looks good! I'm kinda sad to see this generation of X men go, the current crop of actors they have are pretty good. Lawrence, Fassbender and McAvoy have great chemistry. Hopefully it's a worthy sendoff and is closer to First Class and Days of Future Past than Apocalypse.
Looking forward to this one a lot. One last hurrah for the franchise, I guess, before it all goes back over to Marvel. Glad that Charles and Eric are still taking a central role, I kind of expected them to be somewhat sidelined after the end of Apocalypse.
It does seem the really great costumes from the end of Apoc have vanished though.
Necros wrote: So this is the last Xmen movie? Are the actors just switching over to Disney's Avenegerverse, or will there be all new actors and everything?
No one knows for sure at the moment, though I think it's really unlikely that the MCU will recruit the current lineup to join their multiverse. We're probably looking at a full on reboot with all new talent once Disney absorbs Fox. So yeah, this is probably going to be the last X-Men movie for this particular group.
Necros wrote: So this is the last Xmen movie? Are the actors just switching over to Disney's Avenegerverse, or will there be all new actors and everything?
I would assume a new cast, given that they likely want to weave the X-men into Phase 4, the current cast would kinda clash given how many world-ending threats they've had to stop that don't mesh very well with the current timeline of the MCU.
An easy way to bring it up is once they reverse the Thanos snap, an unexpected side-effect that it brings about is a sudden increase in mutants in the human population.
I really struggle to follow the X men films, didn't the other Jean do the Dark Pheonix thing already?
I have to say, whilst some of the films have been enjoyable I'd rather just watch all the early 90s cartoon series over again than sit through most of them.
I'll probably see this either way, but in the age of cosmic MCU, I never expected this Dark Phoenix to be even more grounded and small scale than the last one. Seems like a misstep.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Heh. Scott's first line is "Jean!". True to form as ever, Cyclops.
Anyway... that looks dreary and awful. I look forward to Magneto's inevitable betrayal.
Sadly, as good as Fassbender has been, it’s true he just goes from good to evil in every movie. Which...gets old.
And @Morden; don’t remember, do you have something against Deadpool? If you like the old comics, the first one works. The second one is so damn good that it’s bad (doesn’t grasp the character, but is an incredible movie-his trailer w/Celine Dion says it all).
I would have liked the comic accurate costumes that Apocalypse ended with. Although that movie’s ending was awful because “Jean had to be all powerful”!! The only downside X-Men as a collective whole suffers from in EVERY media is that everything is all about Jean Grey. Always.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I'll probably see this either way, but in the age of cosmic MCU, I never expected this Dark Phoenix to be even more grounded and small scale than the last one. Seems like a misstep.
The Phoenix retcon is one of the worst, IMO and really has nothing to do with the appeal of the original story. I like where they're going with this, even if I have little faith in the final product.
Then again, the X-Men franchise as a whole, as much as I love it, has to be one of the least tonally consistent properties out there. Trying to explain the details of any of their classic stories to a normal person is a quick trip to the loony bin.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Heh. Scott's first line is "Jean!". True to form as ever, Cyclops.
Anyway... that looks dreary and awful. I look forward to Magneto's inevitable betrayal.
Sadly, as good as Fassbender has been, it’s true he just goes from good to evil in every movie. Which...gets old.
And @Morden; don’t remember, do you have something against Deadpool? If you like the old comics, the first one works. The second one is so damn good that it’s bad (doesn’t grasp the character, but is an incredible movie-his trailer w/Celine Dion says it all).
I would have liked the comic accurate costumes that Apocalypse ended with. Although that movie’s ending was awful because “Jean had to be all powerful”!! The only downside X-Men as a collective whole suffers from in EVERY media is that everything is all about Jean Grey. Always.
I don't like the comic character of Deadpool and never did - I hear its true to the source material so i have zero interest in very watching it. So I don't.
Jean is the central goal of the male characters in Clairmont land IIRC
Azreal13 wrote: A movie that seems to lean rather hard on Sophie's ability to act seems... unwise.
But she's at least as good as Daisy, Emilia or Emna at pulling off that slightly irked David Mitchell pastiche that they must be teaching at acting school
The chic who plays Jean Grey is really unattractive. Ms Bloaty McFace. The previous older Jean Grey was smoking hot. I can't stand to even look at this younger one.
I really dislike these X-Men movies. They were cool for a bit, but they just suck now. All over the place too. And I am really over Jennifer Lawrence. Not that I was really ever into her playing Mystique anyway. The vast majority of the cast blows. I can't wait till they are all re-casted by Marvel.
Dear Marvel; please go a different route with X-Men getting folded into your cinematic universe; go Ultimate X-Men. Wolverine is borderline evil who would leave Cyclops for dead in order to bang Jean, Xavier has no qualms about mentally vegetating people if he feels it’s justified, and Magneto is a brutal SOB. Throw in a Cyclops willing to kill if necessary, Blob who is a cannibal, and a Nightcrawler who doesn’t know right from wrong and kidnaps people...Ok, that last one might be extreme. But gimme the rest!
timetowaste85 wrote: Dear Marvel; please go a different route with X-Men getting folded into your cinematic universe; go Ultimate X-Men. Wolverine is borderline evil who would leave Cyclops for dead in order to bang Jean, Xavier has no qualms about mentally vegetating people if he feels it’s justified, and Magneto is a brutal SOB. Throw in a Cyclops willing to kill if necessary, Blob who is a cannibal, and a Nightcrawler who doesn’t know right from wrong and kidnaps people...Ok, that last one might be extreme. But gimme the rest!
That would be an interesting contrast against the Avengers. Also give them a better basis for Deadpool's (occasional) existence in their universe.
timetowaste85 wrote: Dear Marvel; please go a different route with X-Men getting folded into your cinematic universe; go Ultimate X-Men. Wolverine is borderline evil who would leave Cyclops for dead in order to bang Jean, Xavier has no qualms about mentally vegetating people if he feels it’s justified, and Magneto is a brutal SOB. Throw in a Cyclops willing to kill if necessary, Blob who is a cannibal, and a Nightcrawler who doesn’t know right from wrong and kidnaps people...Ok, that last one might be extreme. But gimme the rest!
Not only is that a horrible idea, but there's probably an as close to zero without actually being zero percent chance it would every happen for an MCU incarnation of the X-Men.
There's also probably a reason the Ultimate universe is essentially no more*, and it isn't just because the core base/nostalgia group of Marvel '616' people want nothing to do with it.
(Yes, technically in universe, it does actually still exist! Which is funny, because some day, a smaller 'new' core base/nostalgia crew might get to clamor for its return too!)
Or...let’s have the first MCU X-Men movie be an adaptation of Fatal Attractions, where Magneto removes Wolverine’s adamantium. The movie ends with Xavier mind-wiping Magneto, setting up for an MCU event with the creation/birth of Onslaught. Brings the X-Men in with a heavy story, followed by a major MCU event.
I really hope that Marvel introduces Xavier, and the original 5 X-Men first, and hold off on Wolverine and co till later. I know everyone is dying to see a new Wolverine in the MCU, but even though I am not even big on the original, at least have a single movie with them. If you want to kill off Iceman in the process? I am okay with that. Then roll out the later team.
I am sure if they did this it would piss off some fans though, even if it is how it all originally went down.
Ultimate x men is si gle handedly responsible for ruining the ultimate universe. Do not, in any capacity, use ultimate xmen.
Instead, use comic first class. Make them teens. Build the stories and intro duce the characters slowly so we can learn to give a gak about them. Make apocalypse and the pheonix force avengers style movies that cap off phases instead of the x men solo stories.
So far as "a new wolverine", I shudder to think what that would look like. I half want them to just go straight to X-23 because I feel like, much like Heath Ledger's Joker, Hugh Jackman has left a hard act to follow and I don't want to watch a series of actors do a lesser job for a decade.
KTG17 wrote: I really hope that Marvel introduces Xavier, and the original 5 X-Men first, and hold off on Wolverine and co till later. I know everyone is dying to see a new Wolverine in the MCU, but even though I am not even big on the original, at least have a single movie with them. If you want to kill off Iceman in the process? I am okay with that. Then roll out the later team.
I am sure if they did this it would piss off some fans though, even if it is how it all originally went down.
I recall alot of people saying Hugh jackman would ruin Wolverine
However I have really enjoyed thoughrly pretty much all the X Men films and they are had and shoulders above all but the most recent DC offerings, interesting to see what they do nexy.
KTG17 wrote: I really hope that Marvel introduces Xavier, and the original 5 X-Men first, and hold off on Wolverine and co till later. I know everyone is dying to see a new Wolverine in the MCU, but even though I am not even big on the original, at least have a single movie with them. If you want to kill off Iceman in the process? I am okay with that. Then roll out the later team.
I am sure if they did this it would piss off some fans though, even if it is how it all originally went down.
Hard pass. Duplicating the original team would be a problem on many levels (not least being four white males and the token girl they're all competing over- reading the originals with the mainstream 60s sensibilities is really cringeworthy). Plus the originals as presented had no drive, motivation or even agency. They're good little boy scouts (& a good girl) that simply do what teacher tells them, beat off the villain of the month, and go home and train.
I'm not sure why Iceman would be killed off. For a long time he was the sane one with no dramatic transformations or personal drama (until the late 90s/2000s). He was actually the youngest, with a sense of adventure and fun, not staid, boring and 'correct' like the others.
Granted Ultimates are a worse idea, but the stories with the original five are basically.... fur, teen dating = forever romance, and angsting about not being picked for romance (with money). And beating up clearly labelled villains that don't actually do much of anything on the side.
Mysterio wrote: You seem to think that if they went for the original five X-Men they would also have to keep the dated stories word for word?
...huh?
They'd probably gender swap a bunch of them and they certainly would be beholden to 60's era nonsense.
I do think it will be tricky to get Inhumans into the MCU, but I think they'll figure out a non-ridiculous way of doing it.
The Inhumans were a bit of a disaster of a show so i doubt they will use that name, they are bit better in Agents of Shield even if "everything" has to be about dull Daisy.
Before the Fox purchase, the MCU couldn't use 'mutants' and perhaps thought that 'Inhumans' could be a good substitute.
For a bunch of reasons, that didn't work.
Now that they've got the real and proper Mutants and X-Men back, the sky is the limit!
But Fox is attempting to rush quite a few movies out before the End, which is weird and interesting and should result in more than a few spectacular train wrecks too.
Well, this looks to be a fitting top bun for that turd sandwich that is the X-Men franchise. The sad part is, most of the parts are cast/acted pretty well. Then they still mess them up amazingly.
Like, what is the threat here with her? I get what the threat is from Dark Phoenix in the Comics, but the movies are drastically different from those. So what is she doing? How is she causing issues? What is her power scale? I see nothing I can really compare it to. I see her losing it a little but she doesn't seem to be a world ending threat. Which is crazy because she is the Dark Phoenix. Some of the stuff she was doing regular powered Jean could do easily.
Why should I fear Movie Dark Phoenix over just regular Jean Grey?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just don't want them to do the X-Men at all. They ruin everything.
Keep 'em in their own pocket universe and just incorporate the Fantastic Four (and everything they come with) into the MCU.
Hell, they can skip the Fantastic Four themselves for all I care, just give us Dr. Doom done right! If Hiddleston's Loki is truly gone, then we're going to need a recurring villain who is not only all levels of awesome, but is someone we can root for at the same time. I think MCU could pull that off.
Nah, it'll be Lokiwatch Knights Rider in which he takes a break from his career as Trickster God in order to solve an increasingly bizarre series of mysteries in late night downtown LA in a talking car.
Mysterio wrote: You seem to think that if they went for the original five X-Men they would also have to keep the dated stories word for word?
...huh?
Nope. They'd basically have to come up with new characters for the power sets, which defeats the purpose of using the original characters.
There is a reason people are chuckling that Cyclop's lines in this trailer are 'Jean! Jean. Jean.' And I note that standing in the background of a shot (next to Magneto) is a blue and furry Beast (which is frankly a step up from being Xavier's maid).
There aren't many stories to tell with these characters, particularly if they're going to be rebooted and introduced into the MCU in its usual style (exposition and origin stories). The X-men movies have been a rollercoaster of mediocrity, failure and a few moments of this could actually be pretty decent. Under new management, they ought to use someone else, rather than try to keep forcing the same pieces in the same dance.
Though I'm with HBMC. Just jamming them into the MCU would be a mistake. They've already done the powers are different, powers require government control, etc. etc. Revisiting it with the Xmen would just be slightly painful and dull. And the X-men story is always seriously undercut if those heroes over there have powers and holy crap, no one cares.
Their story has a lot more depth if they are the only fish a separate mutant universe.
They'd probably gender swap a bunch of them and they certainly would be beholden to 60's era nonsense.
Yeah, that's certainly another ball of fan rage Disney wants to invite. It isn't like there's a HUGE pile of X-men to pick and choose from that's really, actually diverse.
And another huge pile of unused villains, rather than listening to Magneto waffle on again about he's justified in his atrocities, because atrocities existed. And Charles rolling in to start another endless 'Nuh-uh' 'Uh-huh' argument.
Having on-scale villains for a Marvel movie would be pretty neat in its own right, rather than overpowered godlike entities or... nobody.
@Tannhauser- totally agree. They can introduce him as a Dr. Strange villain, and have him go rogue dictator. All kinds of potential story arcs there, with easy ties to make him fit in with any title or group.
So far as "a new wolverine", I shudder to think what that would look like. I half want them to just go straight to X-23 because I feel like, much like Heath Ledger's Joker, Hugh Jackman has left a hard act to follow and I don't want to watch a series of actors do a lesser job for a decade.
eh... some actors can probably pick it up and own it.
The MCU might just have some 'Event' which triggers the X-Gene, and then we're off and running.
Between having two Infinity stones on Earth for who knows how long, Hydra(and later Shield) shenanigans since WW2, and Kree and Celestial tampering with the gene pool the MCU has plenty of stuff that could act as a X-gene catalyst. Although an unintended effect of "all of the above" would be my personal prefrence.
The MCU does take a lot of ideas from the Ultimate comics so I'd be suprised if there are not a few similarities. That said there is plenty of room for there own take on the team. It doesnt have to be a straight adaption of either the original or Ultimate books. Anyone remember the X-Men: Evolution cartoon?
Azreal13 wrote: Nah, it'll be Lokiwatch Knights Rider in which he takes a break from his career as Trickster God in order to solve an increasingly bizarre series of mysteries in late night downtown LA in a talking car.
you leave Baywatch Nights alone, it was an awesome example of way too much Hoff and drugs, especially when it swerved from police procedural into X-files fanboyness
The MCU might just have some 'Event' which triggers the X-Gene, and then we're off and running.
Between having two Infinity stones on Earth for who knows how long, Hydra(and later Shield) shenanigans since WW2, and Kree and Celestial tampering with the gene pool the MCU has plenty of stuff that could act as a X-gene catalyst. Although an unintended effect of "all of the above" would be my personal prefrence.
I was thinking that an after-effect of the Unsnap which we all know is coming would be a perfect way to introduce the X-gene, but, I don't think they'd be able to get that into A4 in time, as the Fox thing and reacquiring all those previously missing assets is, relatively speaking, quite recent.
I suppose that the MCU *could* have an X-Men and *not* use many or any of what are popularly known as the X-Men but...the odds of that happening are very low.
The unsnapping or something else in A4 could be the trigger for more mutants to come into there powers. But unless Marvel are willing to wait another ten years, some mutants would have to already have powers in the MCU for there backstory's to make sense.
Of course even then there would have to be some tweaking. Magneto for example would not make sense as a survivor of the Holocaust. As powerful as that story is I cant see them having a bad guy who's pushing 80 in any reboot that's not a period piece. But he could still have a family link to those events, and unfortunately the world has not been short of ethnically motivated atrocities since WW2 that could have had a similar effect on him.
Well, they said "the twins" were Von Strucker's only successful experiments, right? They can just semi-retcon that by adding in some guff about the reason they survived being them having the latent X-gene and the experiments just activated and amped up what they already had within them.
The MCU might just have some 'Event' which triggers the X-Gene, and then we're off and running.
Between having two Infinity stones on Earth for who knows how long, Hydra(and later Shield) shenanigans since WW2, and Kree and Celestial tampering with the gene pool the MCU has plenty of stuff that could act as a X-gene catalyst. Although an unintended effect of "all of the above" would be my personal prefrence.
I was thinking that an after-effect of the Unsnap which we all know is coming would be a perfect way to introduce the X-gene, but, I don't think they'd be able to get that into A4 in time, as the Fox thing and reacquiring all those previously missing assets is, relatively speaking, quite recent.
I suppose that the MCU *could* have an X-Men and *not* use many or any of what are popularly known as the X-Men but...the odds of that happening are very low.
Why they need that? Scarlet Witch is literally an Avenger. All she would have to say is "more like me" and then poof, they have an excuse for the mutant gene. Hell, they could even have an old Xavier show up and tell her something like she has to fix what she did and that would fit in perfectly with the current MCU. They could play off House of M like it has already happened in the 80-90s and that is why there are no more Mutants.
They have a lot of really easy fixes to this issue.
That being said, I bet someone is really kicking themselves over already burning through Days of Future Past, which would have been the most natural segue for all involved, I think.
Hard pass. Duplicating the original team would be a problem on many levels (not least being four white males and the token girl they're all competing over- reading the originals with the mainstream 60s sensibilities is really cringeworthy).
Correct. Completely forgot how we now have to bend over backwards to make peeps feel included by making sure everyone can see their color of skin in a movie.
But if we must: Xavier can be black (I’m thinking Morgan Freeman), Cyclops can be Hispanic, Angel can be desi, Jean Grey Chinese, iceman Native American, but not too northern American ~ it would be too cliche to make him Inuit, but I would be cool with it.
Beast would have to be white though. Lord knows all of the others races would be offended to find he has been cast in their color (“I am highly offended and disappointed Marvel chose to cast a man of African American decent to play the Beast, who’s connotation refers to an animal-like man who is similar to an ape”. White peeps roll better with that kind of thing.
What is the opposite of white-washing? Or is it racist just to ask that?
As far as killing off Iceman, I was just thinking if anyone had to die, he’s my least favorite in the history of comics.
Hard pass. Duplicating the original team would be a problem on many levels (not least being four white males and the token girl they're all competing over- reading the originals with the mainstream 60s sensibilities is really cringeworthy).
Correct. Completely forgot how we now have to bend over backwards to make peeps feel included by making sure everyone can see their color of skin in a movie.
But if we must: Xavier can be black (I’m thinking Morgan Freeman), Cyclops can be Hispanic, Angel can be desi, Jean Grey Chinese, iceman Native American, but not too northern American ~ it would be too cliche to make him Inuit, but I would be cool with it.
Beast would have to be white though. Lord knows all of the others races would be offended to find he has been cast in their color (“I am highly offended and disappointed Marvel chose to cast a man of African American decent to play the Beast, who’s connotation refers to an animal-like man who is similar to an ape”. White peeps roll better with that kind of thing.
Not necessarily, as you could go with the more cat-like Beast that was around for quite some time, somewhat recently.
Best way to bring the X-men into the MCU is via Dr. Strange multiverse mumbo-jumbo. That way, the events of both "universes" do not conflict and you don't need some other convoluted reason why Mutants have yet to show themselves in the MCU. Having Mutants as a "recent" development in the MCU just doesn't seem right. Mutants need to have a long history.
The comics have often run with the idea that they are rare enough that their existence is generally kept a secret from the public via either the government or Xavier himself. It would be a clunky excuse but not entirely implausible.
As maybe the only worthwhile thing to take from the Ultimate X-Men, tying them back to the efforts to recreate the Super Soldier Serum might not be a bad call either, though it kind of flies in the face of the themes of evolution they embody.
LunarSol wrote: The comics have often run with the idea that they are rare enough that their existence is generally kept a secret from the public via either the government or Xavier himself. It would be a clunky excuse but not entirely implausible.
As maybe the only worthwhile thing to take from the Ultimate X-Men, tying them back to the efforts to recreate the Super Soldier Serum might not be a bad call either, though it kind of flies in the face of the themes of evolution they embody.
Having them "hidden" would also make them seem a bit selfish and unheroric, especially considering their lack of assistance in big conflicts like the Battle of NY (in the state they LIVE in) and Sokovia. You would think that a group of superhumans whose tenant is to use their powers for the good of mankind, would be to help in those larger conflicts. Having Xavier wipe everyone's memories would also make all the MCU events thus far a Retcon. Fox's X-men franchise says "hi" to this
Spiderman gets a pass because he was too young. But unless you make all the X-men brand new to the scene (which completely takes out Xavier and Magneto), the only believeable way to introduce them is to have them be a part of there own separate universe. However the Avengers reverse Thanos' "snap" could open this possibility up.
One of the bigger criticisms with Thanos' plan is that instead of wiping half the universe, he could have doubled it's resourses. If the Avengers try this, maybe it instead merges the MCU with the alternate universe in which Mutants exist. That is how I'd write them in. That also doesn't necessarily require recasting and you can continue to use Hugh Jackman if he's willing (and he is)
Hard pass. Duplicating the original team would be a problem on many levels (not least being four white males and the token girl they're all competing over- reading the originals with the mainstream 60s sensibilities is really cringeworthy).
Correct. Completely forgot how we now have to bend over backwards to make peeps feel included by making sure everyone can see their color of skin in a movie.
Silly question, but are you a part of the X-Men writing team? Or on any film writing team?
Because that would be pretty cool.
If not, then why do you feel obligated to make peeps feel anything while watching movies.
X-Men has clearly been about diversity and inclusion since 1975, arguing against it in X-Men seems to miss the point of X-Men.
The argument that diversity has gone too far in Super Hero movies may have its place, but X-Men is certainly not it.
Also, I don't think MCU Scarlet Witch has the same power set as Marvel Comics Scarlet Witch.
Though to be fair, Marvel Comics Scarlet Witch is all over the place.
She is a reality warper. That is pretty much all she needs. From there they can just beef up her power levels under "distress". Hell, that is if she even needs to be powered up to do it. She almost shattered the reality stone. If she managed to get her hands on it in Avengers 4, oh boy. She would be like Strange with the Time Stone.
I am not saying it is what they would do or how they should do it. But with the current MCU the way it is, this is the route that makes the most sense to me.
Galef wrote: [Spiderman gets a pass because he was too young. But unless you make all the X-men brand new to the scene (which completely takes out Xavier and Magneto), the only believeable way to introduce them is to have them be a part of there own separate universe.
Mutants could just have been super rare until recent times. Having a explosion in the mutant population and the majority of the team(and other mutants) about the same age in the MCU as Spiderman would actually line up with the comics fairly well.
Silly question, but are you a part of the X-Men writing team? Or on any film writing team?
Because that would be pretty cool.
If not, then why do you feel obligated to make peeps feel anything while watching movies.
X-Men has clearly been about diversity and inclusion since 1975, arguing against it in X-Men seems to miss the point of X-Men.
The argument that diversity has gone too far in Super Hero movies may have its place, but X-Men is certainly not it.
I have zero issues with diversity per say, so long as there is a valid reason for it. What I can't stand is washing over a character's race only for the simple reason of being diverse. Could Wolverine be black? Sure. But why? Is the color of the skin important? Or the characteristics of that character? If its the character, then the color of the skin is unimportant right? Could be played by an actor of any color. Well not so fast. How about if we bring in gender in too? How about casting Wolverine as a non-gender specific androgynous Pakistani actress who has yet to decide what her actual gender is going to be? He/she would not represent the character of Logan we have grown attached to. There very well may be a part that this Pakistani actor/actress could play but it shouldn't be Logan.
The reason most of the time this doesn't work is because you typically can't bring in race without a whole host of social issues around it. Whether being sensitive to that race's history or modern community. And also by doing so, it washes over the original story of the character itself. The Fantastic Four reboot is an example of that. Its a lame movie anyway, but why add the 'brotha from a different motha' tweak? Its only there to make the film look more diverse and sell tickets. So for me that's crap. Some will think it adds a new element to the story but if you just focus on the story the race shouldn't matter - oh but it sure seems to.
At least in Marvel's MCU case, they tend to sell out to that by just including diverse locations or actors/actresses from regions from where the movies tend to do well anyway, like including Helen Cho. This appeases the South Korean movie goers. Don't think these things aren't done on purpose. Its just like product placement. Helen Cho and her company could have been anyone and anywhere in the world, and 20 years ago it would have just been somewhere in the US, as most Americans can't pick out South Korea on a map. But as Marvel is a global brand now and viewers want to see things they can relate to in the films they are watching. So while I can roll my eyes over the reason Kim Soo-hyun has been cast, its not as big of a deal if she were cast as Black Widow for example.
I know that as film merchandises get bigger and more international people are going to ask, 'OK when am I going to see an Indonesian in one of these films?' or even better 'I am disappointed that Marvel has yet to cast an Indonesian person in their movies', in which, Marvel will get to work in dotting that i and crossing that t. The writers will stick something Indonesian in there to make everyone feel like they are part of the world.
What I have issue with is simply replacing a traditional character's identity with another for the sake of appearing diverse, or worse, politically correct. There is a reason these characters have been the way they have for decades now, leave them be. If you want to add diversity, make a new character with a specific race in mind and cast accordingly. If that seems too forced, and race shouldn't matter, then quit complaining how everything looks too white.
Imagine if a film, like Straight Outta Compton (even this is based on actual events just bare with me here), cast members of different races to play Ice Cube and Dr Dre: the African American community would be in an uproar. And some of it would be because how would those people of other races 'really understand how blacks grow up in LA'? And 'what is wrong with a black man playing the role of a black character?' I am not kidding this is would be some of the crap that would be said. There is an expectation that these guys would be represented a certain way, and not casting someone of Mongolian decent to play Eazy-E. Does race matter? It sure seems to. And in many cases, its not just the race that matters, but being able to understand what being that race feels like.
which is ridiculous, then the opposite holds true as well. And who knows when that strong, independent androgynous actress gets the part of Logan, we'll all be able to applaud and pat ourselves on the back for living in a pretend world where everyone can be everything, which is really what its about. And you can certainly pursue those ideas, but just keep in mind what made those characters cherished to begin with, and leave them be. If you want to add some diversity, make up some new characters.
EDIT: Btw my favorite X-Men team was the second one with Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Banshee, and so on. I can't stand many of the original X-Men, but I think it would be cool for Marvel to pay respect to the characters that started it all.
The second team where there was literally not a single American on the team (except John Proudstar, aka Thunderbird, who was NATIVE American). You had a German monk with blue skin, a Russian farmer, an Irish Interpol agent, a Canadian, a Japanese guy, and an African “goddess”. And that WAS the best damn X-team. Were 3 of them white? Yes. Technically less than half the team. The other four were Asian, African, blue skinned, and Native American (red-skinned). That second team was very diverse; especially for the times. I would definitely watch an X-movie with that team running the show.
Hard pass. Duplicating the original team would be a problem on many levels (not least being four white males and the token girl they're all competing over- reading the originals with the mainstream 60s sensibilities is really cringeworthy).
Correct. Completely forgot how we now have to bend over backwards to make peeps feel included by making sure everyone can see their color of skin in a movie.
But if we must: Xavier can be black (I’m thinking Morgan Freeman), Cyclops can be Hispanic, Angel can be desi, Jean Grey Chinese, iceman Native American, but not too northern American ~ it would be too cliche to make him Inuit, but I would be cool with it.
Beast would have to be white though. Lord knows all of the others races would be offended to find he has been cast in their color (“I am highly offended and disappointed Marvel chose to cast a man of African American decent to play the Beast, who’s connotation refers to an animal-like man who is similar to an ape”. White peeps roll better with that kind of thing.
What is the opposite of white-washing? Or is it racist just to ask that?
As far as killing off Iceman, I was just thinking if anyone had to die, he’s my least favorite in the history of comics.
Now I'm picturing the X-men as a Sense8 movie... which I'm quite happy with. Thank you. Dani Pudi for Professor X!
Or get weird- do X-Men, Savage lands.... with the Rock as Professor X, and Kevin Hart as Cyclops. It would make for an awesome movie, but it would take decades for the franchise to recover.
Bran Dawri wrote: Having the "unsnap" actually be a merger of the two universes is probably the best way to do it IMO
You mean using the unsnap to merge the Fox X-men, a series which cares nothing for continuity (or logic in some cases), with the MCU?
Well that'd be one way to poison a 10+ year legacy of films.
Erm, not quite. I meant a merger of two separate universes within the Marvel Movie-multiverse, one of which has mutants and the X-men, to be able to bring the X-men franchise into the marvelverse.
The X-men have essentially been about an analogy for civil rights since literally the beginning. Unless you're talking about "the PC crowd" that needs to be appeased as being from 1968-1975, you're really just virtue signaling and it's lame.
I would agree that the 1975 lineup was probably my favorite:
but I do have a special place in my heart for the 1991 Jim Lee lineup:
Also kinda disappointed they never found a way to work in Dazzler. I mean, the disco thing is a little dated but maybe they can do EDM or something.
I have zero issues with diversity per say, so long as there is a valid reason for it. What I can't stand is washing over a character's race only for the simple reason of being diverse. Could Wolverine be black? Sure. But why? Is the color of the skin important? Or the characteristics of that character? If its the character, then the color of the skin is unimportant right? Could be played by an actor of any color. Well not so fast. How about if we bring in gender in too? How about casting Wolverine as a non-gender specific androgynous Pakistani actress who has yet to decide what her actual gender is going to be? He/she would not represent the character of Logan we have grown attached to. There very well may be a part that this Pakistani actor/actress could play but it shouldn't be Logan.
The reason most of the time this doesn't work is because you typically can't bring in race without a whole host of social issues around it. Whether being sensitive to that race's history or modern community. And also by doing so, it washes over the original story of the character itself. The Fantastic Four reboot is an example of that. Its a lame movie anyway, but why add the 'brotha from a different motha' tweak? Its only there to make the film look more diverse and sell tickets. So for me that's crap. Some will think it adds a new element to the story but if you just focus on the story the race shouldn't matter - oh but it sure seems to.
At least in Marvel's MCU case, they tend to sell out to that by just including diverse locations or actors/actresses from regions from where the movies tend to do well anyway, like including Helen Cho. This appeases the South Korean movie goers. Don't think these things aren't done on purpose. Its just like product placement. Helen Cho and her company could have been anyone and anywhere in the world, and 20 years ago it would have just been somewhere in the US, as most Americans can't pick out South Korea on a map. But as Marvel is a global brand now and viewers want to see things they can relate to in the films they are watching. So while I can roll my eyes over the reason Kim Soo-hyun has been cast, its not as big of a deal if she were cast as Black Widow for example.
I know that as film merchandises get bigger and more international people are going to ask, 'OK when am I going to see an Indonesian in one of these films?' or even better 'I am disappointed that Marvel has yet to cast an Indonesian person in their movies', in which, Marvel will get to work in dotting that i and crossing that t. The writers will stick something Indonesian in there to make everyone feel like they are part of the world.
What I have issue with is simply replacing a traditional character's identity with another for the sake of appearing diverse, or worse, politically correct. There is a reason these characters have been the way they have for decades now, leave them be. If you want to add diversity, make a new character with a specific race in mind and cast accordingly. If that seems too forced, and race shouldn't matter, then quit complaining how everything looks too white.
Imagine if a film, like Straight Outta Compton (even this is based on actual events just bare with me here), cast members of different races to play Ice Cube and Dr Dre: the African American community would be in an uproar. And some of it would be because how would those people of other races 'really understand how blacks grow up in LA'? And 'what is wrong with a black man playing the role of a black character?' I am not kidding this is would be some of the crap that would be said. There is an expectation that these guys would be represented a certain way, and not casting someone of Mongolian decent to play Eazy-E. Does race matter? It sure seems to. And in many cases, its not just the race that matters, but being able to understand what being that race feels like.
which is ridiculous, then the opposite holds true as well. And who knows when that strong, independent androgynous actress gets the part of Logan, we'll all be able to applaud and pat ourselves on the back for living in a pretend world where everyone can be everything, which is really what its about. And you can certainly pursue those ideas, but just keep in mind what made those characters cherished to begin with, and leave them be. If you want to add some diversity, make up some new characters.
EDIT: Btw my favorite X-Men team was the second one with Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Banshee, and so on. I can't stand many of the original X-Men, but I think it would be cool for Marvel to pay respect to the characters that started it all.
Okay, sounds like you dislike bad writing, I also dislike bad writing.
You dislike characters being misrepresented, I also dislike this.
Take Logan for example, Hugh Jackman plays a great Wolverine, but he is not really short, hairy or even ugly enough to be an honest translation IMO. I would love to see a short hairy obnoxious Wolverine, but I doubt I would every get it. I am not calling out the desperate people who want to get their sexy Logan fix, it is just what sells and I am lucky that Jackman does a great Wolverine even though it makes for a poorer X-Men. I think Wolverines ethnicity is irrelevant as long as he stays Canadian.
Poor, poor Cyclops, the movies are never nice to him. Professor X with hair is annoying too.
Your 'Straight outa Compton' example does sound annoying, but it is pure hyperbolic speculation. Non-Germans play Germans in films all the time (especially WW2 movies), if the Mongols made a good film I am sure they would be forgive.
If the X-Men are taken out of the decade they were originally written for then they need to be updated to fit their new decade.This IMO give the writer room to change gender or ethnicity as well. If the story about the original team is set in the 60's then I agree keep them the same, but it all should be about context.
I think identity politics is an easy way to drive clicks, I imagine more through generating outrage then actual genuine popular support.
X-Men has always been about identity politics, and should reflect the situation of the times they are set in. I just hope the movies are good enough.
I'm really not interested in this at all. Sophie Turner isn't a good enough actor to lead a movie and I'm getting really tired of Magneto's character arc, which feels more like a character circle at this point.
I was much more interested in New Mutants, but seeing as it's been pushed back by more than a year for reshoots, it will probably either get scrapped when Marvel take over, or end up being terrible
Jean Grey has been my least favorite X character ever since I could read. I just have literally no interest in seeing a story centered on that character. In fact, I cheer every time they kill her off. And it's been a LOT.
Just Tony wrote: Jean Grey has been my least favorite X character ever since I could read. I just have literally no interest in seeing a story centered on that character. In fact, I cheer every time they kill her off. And it's been a LOT.
Jean Grey is one of those characters who is relatively subtle and thus more challenging for a writer to do than someone like Wolverine or Gambit or Emma Frost who have very evident personality traits and who pretty much write themselves. Most writers can't do her well: Jean is feminine but has bit of a mean edge and surprisingly big ego when you dig deep enough. Claremont wrote great Jean, Morrison's take was good too, her Jean was bit more extreme and slightly mad. Most X-Men writers however write her as this boring super-compassionate female heroine and Phoenix persona as something completely separate from her.
Dark Phoenix saga is one of the greatest comic book story arcs ever, not because of some epic ending or overwhelming theme, but mostly because of all the little things which Claremont and Byrne patiently wrote over many issues as they built up her rise and eventual fall. This is something which is nearly impossible to capture in movie setting. First X-Men trilogy kinda tried, but the people who did the last movie had no clue about the character or really, well, anything. Also while Famke Janssen did great as Jean (down to being almost dead-in lookalike of comics Jean), she was just written as too nice and soft.
Joss Whedon copied the concept in Buffy, where he used several seasons to build up Willow storyline until eventually she became so powerful that she took over all the other storylines - just like Phoenix.
Anyway, re: the trailer, well it was all over the place and for sure did not spoil us anything. I couldn't tell anything what was going on or why. Maybe that is for the better. I do think Sophie Turner has a chance of pulling the character off, in Game of Thrones she has shown how Sansa can be cold and chilling and that's just what we need from Phoenix.
StygianBeach wrote: X-Men has clearly been about diversity and inclusion since 1975, arguing against it in X-Men seems to miss the point of X-Men.
The argument that diversity has gone too far in Super Hero movies may have its place, but X-Men is certainly not it.
I've been reading a collection of X-Men from the relaunch onwards, where the title really started to take off. The "political correctness gone mad!" crowd would have blown a gasket if it was released now--I mean, you've got a Japanese guy, a Native American and an Egyptian woman in the new lineup of a team that launched with an 80% white male cast? Where will the madness end?
(even if the Japanese guy left in a huff after one mission, and the Native American guy died shortly afterwards)
Certainly a big part of the problem with adapting the Dark Phoenix storyline is that the focus is always on the Dark Phoenix part of it when everything great about the story is what came before. Every adaptation has been in a rush to get to the fetish gear, which is about the point where the whole thing starts going down hill. It doesn't help that people expect the cosmic entity retcon from the beginning these days, which in no way is part of the original story's appeal.
Agreed. The appeal of the Dark Phoenix was the backstory. It took years of Jean being a relatively weak character, then sacrificing herself... only to survive and become stronger than ever. Then there's the period of everyone coping with her newfound power... including her own coping. And then there was the fall, brought on by an old villain teamed up with a new threat.
It's not a story that can be told quickly, if you're going to do it right. And yes, probably far better suited for a T.V. show than a movie franchise.
pix3lboy wrote: I was much more interested in New Mutants, but seeing as it's been pushed back by more than a year for reshoots, it will probably either get scrapped when Marvel take over, or end up being terrible
This is where I really hope Marvel does them justice and brings them into the MCU. Leave the X-Men as slightly older, and use kids for the New Mutants.
I loved the New Mutants first run in the comics. I was torn up when Beyonder slaughtered them all. Now of course they came back, but just the actual act of him killing everyone and their last stand really got to me.
Its actually giving me goosebumps remembering it. Prob kinda 'whatever' by today's standards but I hadn't seen anything like that in those days. A team member here or there, sure, but the whole team? Not that I know of. Legendary last stand (even if it wasn't). Here's a recap of the battle:
Spoiler:
The Mansion:
Danie is giving Sam a ride on Brightwing and they are discussing their separate plans for Thanksgiving. They are currently soaring above the mansion grounds. Sam says that he will be heading home for Thanksgiving. Dani says she will miss the first Thanksgiving with her family since she was a kid. Silently she regrets not telling her mother how much she loves her while she was speaking to her mom on the phone last night.
Suddenly, they both observe a flash of light from the mansion grounds. The flash temporarily blinds Sam. Dani tells him that someone has materialized in front of the mansion. Silently Dani realizes that the confrontation she has dreamed of is about to happen. She still feels that there is no need for a fight as she stills believes reason to be possible.
Inside the mansion:
The New Mutants are also responding to the flash of light. Everyone is in uniform except Amara who is in he long white Roman-style gown. Warlock grabs Amara in alarm and attempts to hide behind her. Amara assures Warlock that whatever the danger is, the team can definitely handle it. Warlock screams n fear for his life as the mansion doors are swung open by the force that has just appeared outside.
On the grounds of the mansion the team sees an all too familiar figure. As one they say the name "Beyonder". The figure voices agreement with the team. He states that his purpose is too understand the meaning of his own existence. He states that he offered them a chance to be at peace with all creation and they refused his offer. The team on the ground whispers to each other that they have bad feelings about this visit from the Beyonder. Rahne thinks he has come to punish them for their refusal.
Meanwhile in the air, Sam asks Dani if she is scared. Dani says she is scared, but she will never let the Beyonder see her true feelings.
On the ground, Illyana sates that she was the chosen messenger. She tells the Beyonder that if anyone is at fault she is. She says that the others should be spared and she should pay the price for denial.
The team screams Illyanas name as the Beyonder accepts her sacrifice. Amara changes to Magma and unloads her full force on the Beyonder. The Beyonder takes to the sky and tells Magma that her flames cannot hurt him as he is too powerful. Sam leaps into the air from Brightwinds’ back and joins the battle by hitting the Beyonder with the full force of his power. Sam sees the Beyonder still standing and makes another attempt at him. The Beyonder responds by backhanding Sam and sending him hurdling away, through the mansion and into the pool.
Dani sees that Sam is protected by his power and despite the rough landing he is ok. She then decides to use her power to pull the Beyonders’ greatest fear from his mind and make this fear his reality. Dani screams, grabs her head, and falls from Brightwinds back the ground below.
Dani experiences the Beyonders’ reality as no other has. She sees him as being as much afraid of life as of dying. Yet, interwoven with the fabric and existence of the universe, while at the same time being the greatest threat to the life of the same universe.
Karma rushes to the fallen body of her friend and yells at the Beyonder to release Dani before he kills her. The Beyonder states that Dani's death is his intention. Karma puts her whole heart and soul into an attempt to possess this powerful being. Unfortunately, her power is reflected back at her with its force magnified so much that her mind is instantly destroyed.
On the ground, Dani regains consciousness only to have Rahne tell her that Karma is dead. She silently fears that her visions are coming to pass. Rahne tells Dani that there is no more they can do against this powerful being. Magma overhears this conversation and continues the fight by pulling granite stones from the ground to crush her enemy. However, her effort is not enough. The Beyonder shatters the mountains of stone as effortlessly as he has shattered Karma's mind. Warlock wants to flee this being, but instead stays to fight. The Beyonder reminds him of his dead Sire Magus because he has injured Warlock's friends. Warlock hits the Beyonder with full force while remembering the star Magus destroyed when he was after Warlock. The Beyonder is flung to the ground. Magma and Cannonball join forces with their teammate and keep after the Beyonder until he ceases to move.
Cannon ball tells Magma that he believes they have killed the Beyonder. Magma says that he got what he deserved. She reminds him that the Beyonder was attempting to kill them too. Still Sam is not happy and he begins to cry. For the home and friends he has lost to this battle. Dani tells him to save his tears as she does not believe the battle is over with quiet yet. She reminds her teammates that they are kids, human kids, despite their powers and they Beyonder is anything but human. She reminds her friends of the fight she had last winter with the Demon Bear. Despite her arrows, she did not kill the bear.
The shocked team hear the Beyonders voice congratulating Dani on her perceptive thinking. They turn to see the Beyonder rise unhurt from the ground into the sky once more. He tells them that he has endured everything they could throw at him. And now, its his turn to fight back. A pit opens up underneath Amara and she falls. She has suddenly lost her ability to control the earth around her. Cannonball goes in after her and catches her. However, the pit has sealed itself and despite his blasts and invulnerability the walls of the pit are closing in on them. Dani silently wonders if the Beyonder was sent to humble them, teach them their true place in the scheme of life.
Warlock scans for his friends underground but can get no life readings. Rahne cries out their names in shock. The Beyonder turns his power on Warlock next. Doug, seeing Warlock nearly killed, goes to offer his life-force so that Warlock can reconstitute his body and survive this experience. Warlock refuses his friends help but Doug reminds him that the ultimate choice belongs to Doug, himself. Rahne stands nearby and silently prays for her friends to be strong and fight. In reality, she appears to be in shock and repeating the words "I'm sorry".
Dani stands with her head buried into Brightwnds side. She realizes that to the Beyonder they are just enemies to be dealt with as the Cheyenne were in the movie she watched with her friends earlier this evening. The Beyonder turns to her and asks her why she does not flee.
Dani answers him by stating that he is so powerful he could have destroyed them at any time. Yet he chose to play with them. She asks him if he was trying to learn something new about being human? She states that she wants to live just as much as her ancestors did, but realizes that her life, and the lives of her friends, ultimately mean nothing to a being as powerful as he is. The Beyonder tells her that there is a purpose to everything he does and he is very sorry that she is unable to understand this. Dani tells the Beyonder that what he is doing is wrong. The Beyonder tells her that it is his job to cleanse the world, which will restore peace and order to his existence. Dani reminds him that she and her friends have done him no harm. The Beyonder replies that they have done more harm then they can be aware of. Therefore, he will no longer tolerate their existence but will envy their eternal serenity instead.
Dani chooses this moment to say goodbye to her loved ones. She believes this is a good day for her to join Black Eagle. The Beyonder states that he has no choice and with a wave of his hand Dani and Brightwind tumble from the sky.
With a wave of the Beyonder’s hand, Dani's parents forget they had a daughter, Roberto forgets about his friends, and a virgin shoreline can be seen around Breakstone Lake. It is as if Professor Xavier and his school had never existed.
And I loved Warlock too. I used to draw that guy all the time.
I really think the mid 80s was an awesome time in comics. I stopped reading them shortly after and nothing I have heard here and there makes me feel like I am missing out on anything.
Lance845 wrote: Marvel could build to dark pheonix as the next infinity war. We need years to grow with the characters.
I agree. Dark Phoenix would be much better than some of the X-Men alternatives. I am hoping they ease in to the X-Men though and focus on the F4 first. I would really like to see the Avengers transition in to a F4 block of movies which then transitions in to an X-Men block of movies.
I'm concerned, yeah. I mean, I'm one of the (apparently few) that like Sansa, especially in later seasons but, yeah, still worried about the film. I'm hoping for the best though.
It still feels like they SHOULD be able to do a workable Dark Phoenix film, without bringing in the Shiar at the end.
Here's how I would pitch it.
Opening scene: It turns out, Emma Frost isn't dead after all, she faked her death and is in hiding. However, she and the resurgant Hellfire Club are trying to steal the newly uncovered M'kraan Crystal. It activates with Jean holding it and, apparently, merges with her, giving her powers to protect the team from certain death (Intentional callback to X-2). The M'kraan Crystal is nowhere to be found after the flameshield.
Cue the "sexual awakening" / lovestory arc with Jean and Scott.
Jean eventually goes crazy, goes full on Dark Phoenix, beats up the X-Men, runs off.
Go to a scene in, say, Africa, where the Dark Phoenix kills a village worth of people.
Gaining control of the Phoenix again, Jean returns to the X-Men, calling herself a monster and so on. The X-Men rally around her because Family.
Except, Mystique can't. She leaves, returns to Magneto, who has been forming the Brotherhood of Mutants.
Essentially, the Brotherhood replace the Shiar in the original story.
"Don't you understand, Charles, I'm doing what you always wanted. I'm saving the world. You're too close to this, she's a monster. And I've seen what happens when monsters win. I won't let it happen again."
The X-Men then get completely beat down by the Brotherhood.
There's only Scott and Jean still standing and fighting. And, Jean tells Scott she loves him, she loves all of them, they're her Family and now it's time for her to protect them, like they've fallen protecting her.
And... She kills herself.
Magneto: "I'm sorry, Charles, but it's for the best."
Charles: "Get out. She was like my daughter."
Mystique hangs back, looking at Charles, about to approach. He glares at her, she turns away, leaving with Magneto.
Roll credits.
Post credits: Jean is lying 'in state' at the funeral home. There's an eerie, terrifying orange glow surrounding the open casket, a literal Phoenix flies out of it, smashing through the stained glass windows, the bars falling to form an 'X' shape.
Eh. I recall Cyclops being pretty lame in the comics tbh.
This. I honestly feel like Cyclops seems to exist solely because fans love to have someone to hate and everyone seems to hate Cyclops XD
I actually met someone (in person even) who argued that Cyclops was the best, most intelligent and most skilled X-man. It was... surprising.
---
My own opinions were shaped by finding the X-men through TSR's Marvel Superheroes RPG first, and mutants were supposed to have a minimum of 2 powers by the rules, so Cyclops always struck me as severely unpowered.
My second was the Dallas storyline against Trickster/Coyote where they all sacrificed themselves, and Cyclops was long gone. But X-men classic was running simultaneously at the time (and the Phoenix Saga specifically), and Scott seemed like a pompous chump.
Eh. I recall Cyclops being pretty lame in the comics tbh.
This. I honestly feel like Cyclops seems to exist solely because fans love to have someone to hate and everyone seems to hate Cyclops XD
I actually met someone (in person even) who argued that Cyclops was the best, most intelligent and most skilled X-man. It was... surprising.
---
My own opinions were shaped by finding the X-men through TSR's Marvel Superheroes RPG first, and mutants were supposed to have a minimum of 2 powers by the rules, so Cyclops always struck me as severely unpowered.
My second was the Dallas storyline against Trickster/Coyote where they all sacrificed themselves, and Cyclops was long gone. But X-men classic was running simultaneously at the time (and the Phoenix Saga specifically), and Scott seemed like a pompous chump.
I’m a Cyclops fan. I’ve always felt he’s gotten a bum rap; he’s always been the most noble, self sacrificing (sacrifices himself to Apocalypse to save Nate Grey), actually BEATS Apocalypse by himself mentally and defeats the possession, but he comes back as kind of an ass. This possession and beating of Apocalypse causes him to become the eventual donkey-cave he is when he leaves Jean for Emma and eventually becomes a terrorist. But yeah, seriously noble, and he destroys himself to save an alternate reality version of his son. I won’t call him the best though; that’s Nightcrawler. Wolverine is like...7th? Maybe? He was just edgy, and nothing more. Lol
I'm actually not familiar with, well, any of that.
My experience is mostly the Cyclops that runs off, falls in with a smuggler captain, then encounters another redhead, marries and then forgets about her (and their kid) once real Jean comes back.
Yeah, I had the issue of X-Factor where Cyclops fights the Master Mold which had Steven Lang's memory engrams coded in. It was the issue where Master Mold realized ALL humanity had mutation of some type. Scott started out in that issue having obliterated the house he shared with Madeline Pryor and Nate. He was pretty much a prick through the entire issue, even when doing the "right thing". I honestly never missed Summers every time he was off the X-Men roster.
timetowaste85 wrote: Dude, Colossus is an asshat. He had a baby with one of the savage land ladies, and ran out without offering support and played dumb. Look it up.
“Oh so and so, what’s new since I last saw you”
“I had a son; he’s named Peter after his father”
“Oh, he looks like a strong lad. Bye!”
Vast difference between a couple instances of writer swap-out leading to bad characterization than there is consistent representation of being a deplorable person. Scott Summers has been a shitheel since as far back as that issue where Professor X turns out to be a Brood Queen.
Colossus suffers from being too noble, and new writers show up and "dirty him up" as a way of trying to make him more interesting to them. It's why Ultimate Colossus was an enforcer for the Russian mafia. It's also why you had that whole Acolyte Colossus thing. Then that part where he shows up in Warren Ellis' Excalibur (Man, I can taste blood just mentioning that guy...) and has a portrayal that's about as far from the core of who Piotr was as you could get. The best part of Whedon's run was him getting Colossus back and doing him right.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Great. I am now imagining Professor X performing burlesque under the stage name Brood Queen. Still a better story than X-cutioner's Song
ANY story is better than that one.
"Oh, look! We're going to drop hints that Cable may be yet ANOTHER bad guy! Still pissed at the Ahab red herring? Not to worry, we have CLONES!!!!!!!!!"
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Great. I am now imagining Professor X performing burlesque under the stage name Brood Queen. Still a better story than X-cutioner's Song
ANY story is better than that one.
"Oh, look! We're going to drop hints that Cable may be yet ANOTHER bad guy! Still pissed at the Ahab red herring? Not to worry, we have CLONES!!!!!!!!!"
fething Christ was the writing bad back then.
It's never good when they send in the clones.
But yeah, Cyclops, I like him a lot under some writers who actually got the character and gave him a bit of dry humour. Whedon actually did a brilliant take on Cyclops when he had Emma Frost dismantle him by pointing that he got X-Men leadership only because he had nothing else going on. It was so meta.
I don’t remember Cyclops’ actions when Xavier was killed and became a Brood Queen. What did he do again? I have the TPB...just been a while. I do know that every time Xavier has shown up since though, he was a perfectly replicated Shi’Ar clone. Xavier himself has been dead since the 80s.
They went through the siege perilous, and were considered dead to the world (never actually killed though). They were given a choice; they could be presumed dead and not show up on electronic devices, or go to the afterlife. They chose to continue in secret.
I think Forge hijinks caused the Cameras thing, as the X-Men then moved to Australia.
Then The "Siege Perilous" happened after the 'Inferno' arc and there was an explanation why the cameras started working again but it was pretty wishy-washy.
Damn it, NOW you reminded me that the Siege Perilous thing happened. That was the genius move that changed Psylocke from a British school marm to an Asian ninja badass, because reasons. Conveniently both had psyonics and purple hair genetically.
Am I the only one who much prefers original British Psylocke? I thought that ninja-Psylocke was lame, as if Siege Perilous had flattened her personality to two dimensions, and the Kwannon retcon made it ever more stupid.
Backfire wrote: Am I the only one who much prefers original British Psylocke? I thought that ninja-Psylocke was lame, as if Siege Perilous had flattened her personality to two dimensions, and the Kwannon retcon made it ever more stupid.
timetowaste85 wrote: Dude, Colossus is an asshat. He had a baby with one of the savage land ladies, and ran out without offering support and played dumb. Look it up.
“Oh so and so, what’s new since I last saw you”
“I had a son; he’s named Peter after his father”
“Oh, he looks like a strong lad. Bye!”
That's the fairly tame stuff. He also comes off as bit of pedo with Shadowcat (when she's all of 13), then breaks up with her after having a thing with a background character in the Beyonder's pocket universe.
The only upside to this is Wolverine basically tossing him into a bar brawl with Juggernaut to knock some sense into him.
---
Also yes, Betsy Braddock was far superior to cliched Asian stereotype fantasy porn.
Urg. I'd forgotten one of the side effects of that whole body swap (on their second time through the Siege, when they gave up in the wake of the random cyborg attacks) was Wolverine went crazy due to being repeatedly tortured to the point of death (the team basically abandoned him when they bolted for new lives), and had figments of Nick Fury and Carol Danvers running around. He tricked Psylocke into psychic-knifing him, which brought her memories back, and locked her into his fantasy, making his 'figments' pseudo-real, sorta. The implication was she was psychic blasting anyone they punched, but she could interact and talk with them.
LunarSol wrote: I love the inane rambling that is any description of X-Men story arcs.
Yeah seriously. As great as so many of the x men characters are their stories are almost always the WORST.
I 100% blame the ultimate universe going from great to gak on the xmen.
Ultimate spiderman was amazing. Ult. Fantastic 4 was great. The Ultimates 1 and 2 were fantastic. And then Ultimate X men decided they would plow through 3 decades of storylines in 2 years, escalating everything going on in that universe at a insane pace and ended with the ultimatum wave. What a bunch of gak.
LunarSol wrote: I love the inane rambling that is any description of X-Men story arcs.
My favorite experience with the X-Men lore was when I bought a board game that came out to capitalize on the success of the cartoon, and it included a background pamphlet to catch up newcomers on all of the main characters and story arcs introduced during the Claremont run in about four pages. It felt like chugging high-density insanity.
Was that the board game that had figures of every X-Men character in it and you got to level up? That game was tons of fun back then! I think my copy is still sitting in my mom’s closet. It’s been years since I’ve even thought about it. Came with like twenty 2” figures of each character; and they were very detailed for the time.
LunarSol wrote: I love the inane rambling that is any description of X-Men story arcs.
It's partly the medium. Monthly issues require long set up times and then a BAM! 3 part payoff (or, by the late 80s with the X-men specifically, 9 parts across three titles).
That these events often involved villains who hadn't been seen for years (or even decades) required a lot of backstory and interwoven craziness. The Siege Perilous thing (or rather the Dallas thing, since the Siege doesn't come up until the very end) pretty much took most of the 1980s to set up, and started with something that seemed fairly unrelated (Storm losing her powers to a gun Forge built, because Rogue permanently took the Marvel powers from Carol Danvers). Also there were the Dire Wraith witch aliens from Rom the Space Knight running around during that whole mess, for more added insanity.
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It's one of the reasons why a Dark Phoenix movie is almost guaranteed to be awful. The amazing aspect of that was the setup and slow conversion, star spanning journey, major mistakes and final resolution in the midst of the big Lunar brawl. A two hour run time can have none of that, and Xavier slipping a child/teen mental horse tranquilizers for years doesn't have the same impact. It just makes him look like a short-sighted jerk.
It's also a story that doesn't in any way need Magneto or yet another face/heel turn.
Remember the time she never once mentioned the former without also explicitly describing it as the latter?
Backfire wrote: Am I the only one who much prefers original British Psylocke? I thought that ninja-Psylocke was lame, as if Siege Perilous had flattened her personality to two dimensions, and the Kwannon retcon made it ever more stupid.
The Kwannon retcon was stupid, 100% agree.
I don't really like either Psylocke better - they both have some pros and cons in terms of appearance. I liked the butterfly motif and costume for the original, and I like the costume and psychic blade* look of the "newer" one as well.
*which is the focused totality of her psychic powers
This makes me feel kind of cartoon-racist, but I didn't even know Asian Psyclocke was supposed to be Asian until someone explicitly mentioned that fact in dialogue*. I just thought that's how Jim Lee drew every woman's eyes. Because it was.
* Whille self-narrating 100% of his actions.
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timetowaste85 wrote: Was that the board game that had figures of every X-Men character in it and you got to level up? That game was tons of fun back then! I think my copy is still sitting in my mom’s closet. It’s been years since I’ve even thought about it. Came with like twenty 2” figures of each character; and they were very detailed for the time.
I don't remember owning a board game that awesome. I think mine had cardboard standees.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: This makes me feel kind of cartoon-racist, but I didn't even know Asian Psyclocke was supposed to be Asian until someone explicitly mentioned that fact in dialogue*. I just thought that's how Jim Lee drew every woman's eyes. Because it was.
* Whille self-narrating 100% of his actions.
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timetowaste85 wrote: Was that the board game that had figures of every X-Men character in it and you got to level up? That game was tons of fun back then! I think my copy is still sitting in my mom’s closet. It’s been years since I’ve even thought about it. Came with like twenty 2” figures of each character; and they were very detailed for the time.
I don't remember owning a board game that awesome. I think mine had cardboard standees.
Backfire wrote: Am I the only one who much prefers original British Psylocke? I thought that ninja-Psylocke was lame, as if Siege Perilous had flattened her personality to two dimensions, and the Kwannon retcon made it ever more stupid.
Nope, you're not the only one. I vastly preferred the telepathic English model with the cybereyes to little miss psy-ninja. Ninjas had been overdone even back then.
Backfire wrote: Am I the only one who much prefers original British Psylocke? I thought that ninja-Psylocke was lame, as if Siege Perilous had flattened her personality to two dimensions, and the Kwannon retcon made it ever more stupid.
Nope, you're not the only one. I vastly preferred the telepathic English model with the cybereyes to little miss psy-ninja. Ninjas had been overdone even back then.
Backfire wrote: Am I the only one who much prefers original British Psylocke? I thought that ninja-Psylocke was lame, as if Siege Perilous had flattened her personality to two dimensions, and the Kwannon retcon made it ever more stupid.
Nope, you're not the only one. I vastly preferred the telepathic English model with the cybereyes to little miss psy-ninja. Ninjas had been overdone even back then.
I liked 'em both
No worries. There's room in the world for people to like either version, or both. I was just stating my personal preferences.
This is more comic book accurate. Except for Mystique being there. But yeah, we got a terribly done Dark Phoenix movie already. It was so bad that they had to time travel to retcon it and make sure it didn’t exist anymore!
timetowaste85 wrote: This is more comic book accurate. Except for Mystique being there. But yeah, we got a terribly done Dark Phoenix movie already. It was so bad that they had to time travel to retcon it and make sure it didn’t exist anymore!
But in XMen Days of Future Past Wolverine is greeted by Jean Grey. . .
timetowaste85 wrote: This is more comic book accurate. Except for Mystique being there. But yeah, we got a terribly done Dark Phoenix movie already. It was so bad that they had to time travel to retcon it and make sure it didn’t exist anymore!
But in XMen Days of Future Past Wolverine is greeted by Jean Grey. . .
Right....in the altered timeline in which she DIDN'T go all crazy and kill everyone, forcing him to kill her. Only Logan remembers the "original" timeline.
timetowaste85 wrote: This is more comic book accurate. Except for Mystique being there. But yeah, we got a terribly done Dark Phoenix movie already. It was so bad that they had to time travel to retcon it and make sure it didn’t exist anymore!
More accurate, yes, in the sense that Monty Python's The Holy Grail is a more accurate telling of Arthurian legend than First Knight...
I wouldn't say I was excited for it. But it's looking like it's going to be better than The Last Stand.
And they're keeping elements from the original comic too. The animated series looks like it's still going to be the perfect version of the saga (which, being a 5 part story in the show, roughly amounts to the length of 1 feature lengthed movie.)
They've got the Phoenix as an external force influencing her, which is already a big improvement over Last Stand.
If we then have Magneto and the nascent Brotherhood in place of the Shi'ar Royal Imperial Guard, that seems like a good fit.
As long as they sort of keep the theme that the X-Men's greatest strength is they're a family and Jean having agency in the ending with her doing the final act and making the choice to sacrifice herself. I think I'm going to be happy.
Frazzled wrote: Ending scene:
-Phoenix is about to go goo goo and wipe out everyone.
-Scene blinks to a dying Thanos who snaps his fingers.
-Phoenix turns to dust.
-In a bar, Wolverine wakes up from a drunken stupor by Xavier calling to him mentally. His face contorts.
-Da Klaws come out.
-fade to black.
That would be a neat way to connect the X-verse with the MCU.
My only complaint is that Phoenix was supposed to be a universal force of life, death, and rebirth; probably punching a bit over Thanos' weight class even with the Gauntlet...
Lance845 wrote: There is no good way to connect the fox x men movies to the mcu. The mcu needs to do its own thing.
Since Disney now owns both, you can expect that sooner or later they will connect. I'd prefer MCU start over and do the characters from scratch, but I think Disney would expect X-fatigue to set in and therefore try to work them into the MCU as-is somehow.
Lance845 wrote: There is no good way to connect the fox x men movies to the mcu. The mcu needs to do its own thing.
Since Disney now owns both, you can expect that sooner or later they will connect. I'd prefer MCU start over and do the characters from scratch, but I think Disney would expect X-fatigue to set in and therefore try to work them into the MCU as-is somehow.
Disagree. The xmen that are 1) are already a certain age and dont have mcu style contracts. 2) a gak representation of thise characters that comes with at this point decades of plot inconsistency baggage. And 3) dont make any sense in the mcu.
I think disney will sit on them for a bit and then work them into the mcu with a new cast and new stories. It would ruin their shared universe to just dump what fox has done into their mix.
Lance845 wrote: There is no good way to connect the fox x men movies to the mcu. The mcu needs to do its own thing.
Since Disney now owns both, you can expect that sooner or later they will connect. I'd prefer MCU start over and do the characters from scratch, but I think Disney would expect X-fatigue to set in and therefore try to work them into the MCU as-is somehow.
Disagree. The xmen that are 1) are already a certain age and dont have mcu style contracts. 2) a gak representation of thise characters that comes with at this point decades of plot inconsistency baggage. And 3) dont make any sense in the mcu.
I think disney will sit on them for a bit and then work them into the mcu with a new cast and new stories. It would ruin their shared universe to just dump what fox has done into their mix.
I certainly hope so. Starting over would work better.
I'm just worried they're feeling under pressure to get the X-Men up and running ASAP, because of the age of the Avenger actors...
Their continuity is the single most valuable thing they have. Letting bs happen because of "preasure" would be very uncharacteristic of them after a decade of proving what they do works.
They've got the Phoenix as an external force influencing her, which is already a big improvement over Last Stand.
This is a retcon and really not part of the original story.
While comics do "retcon" a lot Marvel has never done a full on reboot. At which point it's a little less of a retcon and more a further revelation on the plot and events. Fact is the phoenix force is an external thing that does influence her. If they want to tell the phoenix story that is an element of it.
Won't be seeing it in the theater that's for sure. Also committing one of the cardinal sins (super present in many super hero films): having no real enemy, or a poor one.
They've got the Phoenix as an external force influencing her, which is already a big improvement over Last Stand.
This is a retcon and really not part of the original story.
While comics do "retcon" a lot Marvel has never done a full on reboot. At which point it's a little less of a retcon and more a further revelation on the plot and events. Fact is the phoenix force is an external thing that does influence her. If they want to tell the phoenix story that is an element of it.
Does that make the original story unfaithful to the source material?
My point is, the original story is one in which the Phoenix being an external force is not an element of it. In fact, there's a character pivotal to the whole thing whose whole job is to actually be an external force that influences her.
I am saying in the original story them not SAYING the Phoenix is an external force does not mean that it is not an external force. And any person who is in the story explaining what is or is not anything can easily be 1) telling a lie or 2) ignorant. Future stories have clearly clarified that the Phoenix is in fact it's own external entity.
Another person sitting around influencing her can still be a thing either way. The nature of the Phoenix isn't important to whether or not somebody else is an influence.
I'm more of a fan of the animated adaption than the initial story (because it gives Jean more agency at the end, if memory serves), which does have both the Hellfire club and the Phoenix as an external source.
That's sad to hear. With this being the last of the Fox X-men movies, I was hoping they would go out with a bang and not a whimper.
I was also hoping that the X-men could somehow be rolled into the MCU with the same actors/events. Could you imagine the kind of reaction fans would have if it turned out the all these movies coincided with the MCU timeline (in an alternate universe, of course) but were then merged somehow (maybe the second snap and/or the time shenanigans brought to 2 worlds together?) Heck, they could even do a reverse "No more mutants" with Scarlet Witch maybe trying to bring back Vision and accidentally merging with her "Mutant-verse" counterpart and bring all the mutants into the MCU
It's not like half of the X-men movie events haven't already been "wiped" from their own canon, so why not just lean into the skid.
But if this does poorly (looking likely) than I doubt Disney would want to keep up that particular franchise. It will be sad to see the X-men rebooted (again) with new actors and backgrounds.
Hopefully the MCU does not introduce mutants at all.
Huh. Who would have thought a movie with Sophie Turner as the main character would bomb. I love X-Men, but after how they handled her in Apocalypse, I can’t say I expect this one to be any better. Phoenix is already done to death (pun intended) in the comics, doing a second movie about it and casting Sophie just...sigh. Makes me miss Halle Berry’s wooden acting as Storm in the first trilogy.
I'd bet there's too much potential money in the X-Men for it to be abandoned forever.
A good middle ground would be to hand them over to the MCU, but with the dictate that they be a separate X-Verse instead of part of the existing MCU. Why? Because as I said earlier, given their performance with the Avengers and the like, I'm more confident that the MCU crew will do the X-Men justice than... well, anyone else I can think of.
The MCU has never really been about continuity. Endgame is probably the big exception to that, but surprise continuity reveals haven't been a thing since Tony showed up at the end of Hulk. If they don't do the X-Men in their own universe (having just added a multiverse, so why not?) they're not going to make a story of their inclusion; they're just going to show up at some point and pretend they've always been there like the Ancient One defending NYC during Avengers. The movies genuinely don't waste time on this stuff as much as fans think they do.
As for the film itself, reviews I've read make it sound like a mess. Didn't ever see Apocalypse, probably won't see this one either.
Galef wrote: Could you imagine the kind of reaction fans would have if it turned out the all these movies coincided with the MCU timeline (in an alternate universe, of course) but were then merged somehow (maybe the second snap and/or the time shenanigans brought to 2 worlds together?)
Disgust? Confusion? The Fox X-Men universe has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. They never cared about continuity in any way, and trying to bring that into the MCU would have been a disaster.
LunarSol wrote: The MCU has never really been about continuity.
Galef wrote: Could you imagine the kind of reaction fans would have if it turned out the all these movies coincided with the MCU timeline (in an alternate universe, of course) but were then merged somehow (maybe the second snap and/or the time shenanigans brought to 2 worlds together?)
Disgust? Confusion? The Fox X-Men universe has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. They never cared about continuity in any way, and trying to bring that into the MCU would have been a disaster.
In fairness, the X-Men movies ending up as a tangled continuity nightmare due to retcons, parallel universes and time travel seems entirely faithful to the comics.
I'm more interested in the Fantastic Four. There aren't really any fondly remembered F4 movies for an MCU redo to compete against, and they're a lot easier to work in than "civil rights movement out of nowhere".
LunarSol wrote: The MCU has never really been about continuity.
Huh?
I believe he meant continuity with the comics, and not within the MCU itself.
No, I mean within the MCU. There is, overall, very little in the story of any of the films (except Endgame) that's tied all that directly into any of the others. Any plot points that do are generally introduced in the film they matter later in a way that doesn't depend on any real prior knowledge of anything that came before. People keep expecting them to be "about" setting up continuity, but they generally are happy to passively reference things that comic fans care about but rarely make the plot about the kind of things like "why mutants" or anything like that. That's part of the reason the two films that probably spent the most time on setting up meta narrative (Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron) are generally not as compelling as the rest.
It's also why Thanos really doesn't get any of the gems until Infinity War. There's not a single movie that explains "how he got the X gem" other than Infinity War. Its fun to know why a gem is where he ends up getting it, but its not really critical to the plot of the film in which it matters and that's pretty true of the entire franchise. The run up to Avengers was done in a way that it very easily could have been Red Skull as the villain as a clear audible. Very very little in the films are setting up future movies outside of the post credit scenes. They're "connected" but they're not about tying themselves together or explaining one another. Once they exist they'll just have always existed and I don't expect the mutants to require any sort of continuity wizardry and more than Black Panther, Dr. Strange, Hank Pym or any of the others did.
I'm more interested in the Fantastic Four. There aren't really any fondly remembered F4 movies for an MCU redo to compete against, and they're a lot easier to work in than "civil rights movement out of nowhere".
They really seem like a trivial addition. 50's era family "Lost in Space"/the negative zone for over half a century makes it back to the modern day.... go.
The MCU films are written so that they don't rely on people having seen and remembered every second of all the other films to come before it.
But to say that the MCU isn't about or interested in continuity because they include redundancies of exposition in their films is a mighty, mighty stretch.
He's probably overstating it, but the MCU's continuity has been exaggerated by many. The flexibility they built in (compared to the early DCEU committing everything to one director's vision and a single storyline for instance) was one of the secrets to its success. They could adjust on the fly to what worked and didn't.
Ya know, they could always attribute the messed-up continuity of the X-men franchise to the time-shenanigans of the MCU if they decide to bring in that francise into the MCU. Again, probably involving Scarlet Witch "oppsying" them in.
But with the apparent/anticipated failure of Dark Phoenix, I doubt the MCU will have any desire to bring in Mcavoy, Fassbender & crew into their canon.
What's more likely is that mutants will slowly start showing up in the MCU piecemeal to "test the waters" before the X-men full-on make an appearance.
But hopefully they can successfully bring in the F4 long before then
[quote=LunarSolNo, I mean within the MCU. There is, overall, very little in the story of any of the films (except Endgame) that's tied all that directly into any of the others. Any plot points that do are generally introduced in the film they matter later in a way that doesn't depend on any real prior knowledge of anything that came before.
Gonna have to disagree there.
Sure, you can still pick up an MCU film and watch it without having watched all of them, but there are direct ties to other films. A lot of it is "this happened in another film, this film is about those consequences".
Some examples off the top of my head for this are Iron Man 3 (entire film is about Tony coping with his near-death experience and seeing the threat of Thanos - which you wouldn't have without seeing the Avengers), Black Panther (with T'Chaka's death in Civil War setting up the power struggle in Wakanda), and Homecoming (which needs that continuity to have Tony Stark in it, thereby joining it directly to other MCU films).
Sure, you *can* see the films in isolation, but you could as well with nearly any other film series - purely based on pop-culture tropes, you can fill in the blanks of scenes you've never seen in order to compensate.
Yea I went and saw it yesterday with some friends at our local cinema (only 4 quid a ticket :-p).
It was OK tbh. It had some cool scenes along with a clear and engaging story, if a little well worn as Jean Grey's character arc has been told plenty of times before.
I've just seen it and to be perfectly honest... It's far, far, far better than I expected.
Going into it, my expectations were in the toilet and, honestly, really I enjoyed it.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's the best thing ever, there's things that could have done far, far better. However they got the themes right, the acting (assuming you like Sansa, which not everyone does, in which case you should probably give it a pass), enjoyable scenes and so on.
It's no Logan, Deadpools, DoFP or X2 but it's better than Origins, The Last Stand and Apocalypse.
I guess that leaves it as sorry of a mid range X-Men movie, how far along the middle range is probably up to the individual.
Spoiler:
I'll write more spoilery thoughts earlier but my first one is, the film could have done with a post credits scene of everyone who died in the movie getting resurrected
timetowaste85 wrote: So has anyone here actually seen Dark Phoenix? Or are we all pretty much going “hell no, it’ll get a redbox rent if it’s lucky”?
Unfortunately, my determination that the movie looks like hot garbage doesn't actually preclude me going to the theater and seeing it. There is still a 70% chance I will catch it because I really like the experience of going to the movies so it doesn't take much for me to justify a trip. I have not yet seen it, though.
I mean, good is a bit strong for it. I don't want to go around and getting peoples hopes up for it. The film is fine. It's not bad, it's not good, it's fine.
Been watching the X-Men movies since the first and looking forward to Dark Phoenix. Not amazing movies but always entertaining, and they have the best excuse of having many "super heros" in the same film.
Well, I’ve been an X-Men junkie since ‘92. My wife liked the X-Men movies better than all the Marvel stuff (except Black Panther, and we skipped Last Stand and Apocalypse). She has no interest in this one either. Honestly, if they cast anybody other than Sophie Turner, wed probably both be onboard. But the movie focusing solely on her, when we both dislike her as an actress...that’s like going on youtube to watch hours of funny cats licking themselves when you hate cats with a fiery passion. Or...something like that.
She showed better acting chops as Serious Sansa than Young Sansa.
To the point where I'm genuinely wondering if Young Sansa being so irksome was actually superb acting?
It could also be 'she herself was young, and young people do tend to get better at things they stick at for years'. So therefore, six of one and half a dozen of the other.
I'm surprised at how much the Red Letter Media guys likeddidn't hate liked this movie. It makes me think I'd probably enjoy it the same way I enjoyed Xmen Apocalypse. Sometimes it's nice to have a bit of schlock that shots for okay.
Mr Morden wrote: Well whatever she does its not going to be as bad as Jessie Eisnberg as Lex Luthor.
You mean the Riddler? Cuz he was totally playing the Riddler in BvS. Or Tommy Lee Jones in Batman Forever. Someone should have told him he was playing Two Face, not a reimagining of Jack Nicolson's Joker.
Sophie Turner is no Famka Jansen, but at least she looks the part without having to have her hair died a fake red.
The biggest gripe I'm having with the movie (haven't seen it yet) is the time jumps. Going from the 60s to 70s for DoFP, was cool. Jumping a bit to the 80s for Apocalypse was ok.
But being in the 90s is FAR too close to the original X-Men movie. Fassbender & Mcavoy are great as young Magneto and Xavier, but physically only because Mckellen and Stewart were so much older in the original that the they younger actors could look like they "aged' into the older actors appearance.
There's little more that 5ish years between Dark Phoenix and X-Men, making the age differences between the actor far too noticeable.
Just got back from watching Dark Phoenix and it was a good film.
Nitpicks first. The mysterious aliens were initially uninteresting( villians of the week ). Magneto...pretty much does what we all expect him to do and little else - he doesn't surprise us. While watching the movies over the last few years...did they change course in the time line back a few movies? While this is obviously another stab at Last Stand...I thought it was just Wolverine: Origins thats been removed from cannon? I think this is the result of...Future past? Sigh. Confused.com. 3D showing was good at the beginning but became hardly noticable as the film went on. No after credits scene! No!
Now the good things! Nice to enjoy a Superhero movie that actually takes itself seriously for a change, because this one needed it. Sophie Turner is spanking gorgeous and made me melt everytime she was on screen( super red head alert! ). Jennifer Lawrence delivers a good performance and does surprise us. The cast is pretty good all round, and although some have skimpy material to work with they deliver it professionally( Michael Fassbender ). While not mind blowing the music was quite good - almost popped in HMV afterwards to pick up a copy.
Dark Phoenix doesn't rock the Superhero genre but its a decent X-Men movie all the same. After an initital emergency the film becomes more grounded in the character relationships, which then esculates into a thrilling - and "fast moving" - showdown with the villians.
And sadly, this appears to be the last X-Men movie. Not been mad on the series, but over the years has almost been a friend that just popped in to say hello once in a while. In some respects I hope they just leave it alone with Dark Phoenix being the last one, but apparently Disney is doing something with it. If that means being slapped into the MCU then...yeah, I'm done with it.
Compel wrote: To be fair, the original X-Men movie takes place "in the near future" whereas Dark Phoenix is explicitly mentioned as being set in 1992.
I guess that's fair. But how near is near? It was "in the near future" of 2000, which at most would be 2010.
But isn't Fassbender's Magneto supposed to be like 62 in this movie? I guess part of being a mutant, any mutant not just Wolverine, is slow aging...that then catches up real quick.
I just think they would have been better off setting this in, say, 1985-88. I know that's not that far behind '92, but it feels farther off. And more importantly, closer to Apocalype, so that the actors, whose ages were already pushing too young for their "present" counterparts, weren't so far off from their characters ages.
Elton John is one of the most beloved musicians in the world and just as famous as Freddie Mercury. His biopic only cost $40 million dollars to make. There are no elaborately planned vfx sequences to be made. Its been released more than six months after the hugely successful Freddie Mercury movie.
Dark Phoenix is yet another super hero movie in a over-saturated market of such movies. It has very complex vfx sequences. Some of its actors command big bucks. Budget is reported to be about $200 million. Its story( the Dark Phoenix thing ) is only a big deal to those who have read the comics and not the general, cinema-going public - its just another X-Men movie to the rest of us. It has been released when ticket prices are very expensive and everyone elected to spend it on the juggernaut release of Avengers: Endgame, for their sci-fi / superhero fix, which is still being shown in cinemas.
Lets face it, Dark Phoenix and Endgame are from the same studio - Marvel. Marvel is owned by Disney. 20th Century Fox is now part of Disney. By banging out both movies so close to each other in release schedule...they have performed what we call - in english football terms "an own goal".
Oh, wait, they did exactly the same thing last year with Solo! Lets have a laugh as we have a trip down memory lane! Disney owns Marvel and LucasFilm. Disney feels the time is right to throw a 4-month advertized Solo out on the tail end of Inifinity War and Deadpool 2! Deadpool 2 was already risking it as it was competing with Infinity War( both hyped up to fever pitch a year in advance ) so what hope in hell did Solo have with bugger all advertizing? Seriously, a Star Wars movie nobody knew about! How the %!£? did they manage that one?
The real problem is this; there are way too many superhero movies being shoved down the cinema-goer's throat. In the space of seven months...
Aquaman.
Captain Marvel.
Shazzam.
Infinity War.
Dark Phoenix.
Spiderman: Far from Home.
...if these had been released over a two-to-three year span, I would have gone and seen them all. As it is, I've only seen Dark Phoenix.
Just came back from it.... like Samusdrake stated we had too many other superhero movies hit this year. Dark Phoenix was a really "whatever" b action movie with a lot of high profile actors
Without spoilers or breaking it down I'd say I wasted my money seeing it in a venue. 4/10. Big budget effects, big actors, I just watched a string of "Better" superhero movies.
I genuinely enjoyed the previously thought of "bad X-men" from when I was a kid and even a few of the newer ones. I enjoy Logan and the past few X-Men movies but this was reminded me of release of the last few Terminator movies. Very lukewarm and "whatever"
Lets face it, Dark Phoenix and Endgame are from the same studio - Marvel. Marvel is owned by Disney. 20th Century Fox is now part of Disney. By banging out both movies so close to each other in release schedule...they have performed what we call - in english football terms "an own goal".
This is incorrect. The Marvel Studio and Fox Studio have entirely different staff and execs, and the deal wasn't even finalized until March of this year. Despite that merger existing on paper now, they still aren't 'the same studio.'
This movie was largely done and originally slated for last fall, and pushed back at the request of James Cameron for Alita.
Other points- Solo had lots of advertising. It also had horrible rumors and scaremongering in the movie press during production.
Superhero movies are here to stay. The 'its the fault of way too many superhero movies' just doesn't work when all the other ones you've listed were WILDLY successful, with universally notable earnings and wide praise. That only this one is a failure indicates that the failure is this movie, not the genre or having 'too many.'
Far from Home is also poised to be another big earner, regardless of 'too many' films.
Not sure what the 'expensive ticket prices' argument is about. I've seen several jumps and 'inflation adjustments' since I was a kid, but they aren't notably more expensive now than they were ten years ago. Snacks are, but the actual movie ticket? $8
SamusDrake wrote: Elton John is one of the most beloved musicians in the world and just as famous as Freddie Mercury. His biopic only cost $40 million dollars to make. There are no elaborately planned vfx sequences to be made. Its been released more than six months after the hugely successful Freddie Mercury movie.
Dark Phoenix is yet another super hero movie in a over-saturated market of such movies. It has very complex vfx sequences. Some of its actors command big bucks. Budget is reported to be about $200 million. Its story( the Dark Phoenix thing ) is only a big deal to those who have read the comics and not the general, cinema-going public - its just another X-Men movie to the rest of us. It has been released when ticket prices are very expensive and everyone elected to spend it on the juggernaut release of Avengers: Endgame, for their sci-fi / superhero fix, which is still being shown in cinemas.
Lets face it, Dark Phoenix and Endgame are from the same studio - Marvel. Marvel is owned by Disney. 20th Century Fox is now part of Disney. By banging out both movies so close to each other in release schedule...they have performed what we call - in english football terms "an own goal".
Oh, wait, they did exactly the same thing last year with Solo! Lets have a laugh as we have a trip down memory lane! Disney owns Marvel and LucasFilm. Disney feels the time is right to throw a 4-month advertized Solo out on the tail end of Inifinity War and Deadpool 2! Deadpool 2 was already risking it as it was competing with Infinity War( both hyped up to fever pitch a year in advance ) so what hope in hell did Solo have with bugger all advertizing? Seriously, a Star Wars movie nobody knew about! How the %!£? did they manage that one?
The real problem is this; there are way too many superhero movies being shoved down the cinema-goer's throat. In the space of seven months...
Aquaman.
Captain Marvel.
Shazzam.
Infinity War.
Dark Phoenix.
Spiderman: Far from Home.
...if these had been released over a two-to-three year span, I would have gone and seen them all. As it is, I've only seen Dark Phoenix.
Don't forget into the Spiderverse, Venom, and this. Also Brightburn.
Lets face it, Dark Phoenix and Endgame are from the same studio - Marvel. Marvel is owned by Disney. 20th Century Fox is now part of Disney. By banging out both movies so close to each other in release schedule...they have performed what we call - in english football terms "an own goal".
This is incorrect. The Marvel Studio and Fox Studio have entirely different staff and execs, and the deal wasn't even finalized until March of this year. Despite that merger existing on paper now, they still aren't 'the same studio.'
This movie was largely done and originally slated for last fall, and pushed back at the request of James Cameron for Alita.
Other points- Solo had lots of advertising. It also had horrible rumors and scaremongering in the movie press during production.
Superhero movies are here to stay. The 'its the fault of way too many superhero movies' just doesn't work when all the other ones you've listed were WILDLY successful, with universally notable earnings and wide praise. That only this one is a failure indicates that the failure is this movie, not the genre or having 'too many.'
Far from Home is also poised to be another big earner, regardless of 'too many' films.
Not sure what the 'expensive ticket prices' argument is about. I've seen several jumps and 'inflation adjustments' since I was a kid, but they aren't notably more expensive now than they were ten years ago. Snacks are, but the actual movie ticket? $8
Solo had too little, too late advertising to make the 1 Billion mark they were expecting. The production problems were outlined by most "Geek" online media sites.
For example(but not the only one), I'm the resident star wars fan amongst my friends. The previous SW movies - Force Awakens, Rogue One and Last Jedi - everyone else came to me saying "are you excited for it? Are you going to see it?". Solo, not a single one of them. When I asked them, they thought I was referring to Last Jedi that was then seeing its home video release. There is a huge difference between what the geeks are following and are excited for, and the general cinema-going public.
As for the Disney and Fox merger - Marvel was working on both movies for Fox and Disney. I find it hard to believe there was zero communication over their million dollar projects clashing with each other.
Yes, the genre is here to stay and I think it would be a loss if a fan of the genre didn't have at least one film to look forward to once in a while. You are correct that the marvel movies and Aquaman performed very well this year, but Shazam, while covering its costs and pocketing a bit of money, wasn't exactly raking in the big bucks, was it?
Aquaman did well( quite surprised it took a billion, given DC's track record of late ), with little competition at christmas. With no Starwars or MCU movie it was either that, Mortal Engines or a Transformers movie. Hmmm...
To be fair, expensive might just be a UK thing, so I'll give you that as I don't live in America nor China. It used to be £6 a ticket ten years ago, but then jumped up to £10 - just for normal 2D screening. Thats all-week round, which is taking the piss when the threatres are practically empty(edit; earlier in the week). Used to go all the time on Tuesdays as it was £7, but they did away with that too.
It needs to be made clear; Disney and Marvel are on a roll with the MCU and raking in big bucks. But lets face it, Dark Phoenix is sandwiched in between Endgame and the upcoming Spiderman movie - both MCU movies. They'll just stick with those.
I had a free afternoon and caught a cheap show and yeah that was certainly... a movie. Not terrible, I have no desire to tear my eyes out and run into the wilderness but just kind of there.
Totally agree everyone looked too young for a sequel set 10 years later. Should have stuck to the 80s. And if you're doing a period piece do something with it. At least Apoc had the cool Mall sequence. (Or was that cut and I'm thinking of a deleted scene? I know I saw it...)
As is my want I rewrote it on the fly. The villains are not the (don't feel like looking up their name) aliens, they're the Hellfire Club.
I mean they #$%^ing hang out in a brownstone off of Central Park and are led by a skinny blonde! So the Blonde is the White Queen, the others are HF members, and the generic goons at the end are generic HF goons injected with mutant DNA (Mystique and Beast) for their healing, jumping, shapeshifting etc.
And done.
Won't help with everyone sleepwalking through their performances but at least it give stakes we might care about. The Xmen want coexistance, the Brotherhood (or whatever Magneto's gang is called) want their own homeland and the Hellfire Club want to rule humanity. A nice 3-worldview clash. No need to bring the Shiar or anything else, keep to the civil rights metaphor.
Oh and since healing is usually part of a shapeshifter's power set, Mystique is fine, she crawls out of her grave a week later and is pissed no one thought of that.
The real problem is this; there are way too many superhero movies being shoved down the cinema-goer's throat. In the space of seven months...
Aquaman.
Captain Marvel.
Shazzam.
Infinity War.
Dark Phoenix.
Spiderman: Far from Home.
...if these had been released over a two-to-three year span, I would have gone and seen them all. As it is, I've only seen Dark Phoenix.
Your problem isn't that six superhero movies were released in seven months; your problem is you picked the literal worst of them to go see which is why you don't want to see any others. If you'd instead seen, say, Captain Marvel you'd have more enthusiasm for Infinity War and then Spiderman.
Oh and since healing is usually part of a shapeshifter's power set, Mystique is fine, she crawls out of her grave a week later and is pissed no one thought of that.
I was kind of confused by that too,
Spoiler:
I thought they were intentionally shooting for something like. "Oh look she's impaled the exact same way Wolverine's claws did in the original movie..."
But yeah, nothing...
I still think "Phoenix resurrected folks" would have worked though - The phoenix is supposed to be the symbol for rebirth, they talked about it, didn't really show it.
Another thing missing from the film but important in the original storyline is DARK Phoenix has to do something unforgivable.
Or she's just Naughty Phoenix.
And blowing up a couple of cop cars and killing Jennifer Laurence just doesn't do it for me. Certainly not enough to make Congress decide to lock everyone in concentration camps.
Blowing up Magneto's mutant island would have done it. A terrible crime and enough to put the fear of God in everyone.
To be frank, something like Dark Phoenix needs to build over several episodes. Establish Jean and Scott's relationship, establish Mastermind as a villain, add the tension with Logan, Jean's sacrifice and rebirth as Phoenix, then bring in the Hellfire Club as a villain, Phoenix falling under Mastermind's control... and only then see Dark Phoenix unleashed. Bonus points if you'd already established the Shi'ar, done the M'Kronn crystal story and established the Charles/Liliandra relationship.
Oh and since healing is usually part of a shapeshifter's power set, Mystique is fine, she crawls out of her grave a week later and is pissed no one thought of that.
I was kind of confused by that too,
Spoiler:
I thought they were intentionally shooting for something like. "Oh look she's impaled the exact same way Wolverine's claws did in the original movie..."
But yeah, nothing...
I still think "Phoenix resurrected folks" would have worked though - The phoenix is supposed to be the symbol for rebirth, they talked about it, didn't really show it.
From what I've heard, J-Law has wanted out for several movies. Why they made her such an "important" character in Apoc was probably just to get her to sign on again or something like that. She probably only signed on to Dark Phoenix because they promised her it'd be her last outing.
It's really a shame when movies have to adapt scripts due to real world circumstances
Which makes little sense! I mean if there's one character who can be replaced its the shape shifter! Especially since her normal form is under blue make up and a terrible wig!
Does.anyone go to see the X Men because Jennifer Lawrence is in it? Especially when you only see her face for like 5 minutes?
Anyway figure her near death experience accounts for her more feral attitude in the original 3 films.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Anyway figure her near death experience accounts for her more feral attitude in the original 3 films.
Well, technically the original 3 movies no longer happened. DoFP set a new timeline and dramatically changed Mystic's character to be a "good guy"
Side question, How many of the X-men movies "no longer exist" in the continuity because of DoFP? The original 3 for sure, but also most of Origins: Wolverine and The Wolverine too, right? I mean, everything that happens to Logan in those movies before the 1970s still stands, but everything after? Didn't happen.
What about Logan? Seems like those events could be in either continuity. Anyone know which?
I think it probably is fair to say that her joining First Class brought a new audience to the X-Men movies. So, going from that to her having a big presence in Days of Future Past, that makes sense.
It's Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix where it doesn't necessarily make sense, especially as she clearly wanted out of them both. At that point, people would either have bought into the movies, or not. And I imagine JLaw fans wouldn't have wanted to see a film where their favourite actress is miserable.
She signed on for First Class and sequels right before Hunger Games and Silver Linings made her a star. It was pretty clear that DoFP was eager to take advantage of a hot name they got at a low price and made her far more central to the franchise at a time it was no longer worth the effort for her.
Compel wrote: It's Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix where it doesn't necessarily make sense, especially as she clearly wanted out of them both. At that point, people would either have bought into the movies, or not. And I imagine JLaw fans wouldn't have wanted to see a film where their favourite actress is miserable.
Agreed. I also adds to my gripe about the actors not being "aged" enough to match their 2000 X-men counterparts. Dropping Mystic from Apoc and Dark Phoenix would leave just Mcavoy and Fassbender (also, maybe Holt) as the ones that don't belong.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well Mystique, if anyone, has an excuse for looking younger than she should.
True, but why? If in the original timeline she looked like Rebecca Romaine by the year 2000ish, why does she still look like J-Law in the mid 90s?
I just don't think they though through the time jump.
Starting in the 60s was cool for First Class as it lined up with the ages of young Xavier and Magneto. Jumping to the 70s was fine for DoFP as it gave the characters some time for stuff to change.
Even jumping to the 80s for Apoc was ok because it gave them an excuse to have the iconic X-men style outfits at them end (because no other time would those make sense but the 80s).
Jumping to the 90s was a mistake, and also added to the similarities between Dark Phoenix and Capt Marvel, which caused them to that to change things last minute.
If you'd instead seen, say, Captain Marvel you'd have more enthusiasm for Infinity War and then Spiderman.
Not my problem the trailers for those films weren't that interesting.
And the trailers for Dark Phoenix were? I thought they were quite lame.
You might also consider that a movie line with over 20 profitable movies to it's name, a good half of which can probably be considered blockbusters, might well be doing SOMETHING better than the lackluster performing later X-movies.
Or to go old school about it, "Don't judge a book by it's cover".
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well Mystique, if anyone, has an excuse for looking younger than she should.
True, but why? If in the original timeline she looked like Rebecca Romaine by the year 2000ish, why does she still look like J-Law in the mid 90s?
To be fair that's not the worst continuity break considering she dies in this film but is back alive again to fight with the Brotherhood of Mutants in XMen!
If you'd instead seen, say, Captain Marvel you'd have more enthusiasm for Infinity War and then Spiderman.
Not my problem the trailers for those films weren't that interesting.
And the trailers for Dark Phoenix were? I thought they were quite lame.
You might also consider that a movie line with over 20 profitable movies to it's name, a good half of which can probably be considered blockbusters, might well be doing SOMETHING better than the lackluster performing later X-movies.
Or to go old school about it, "Don't judge a book by it's cover".
It appears you are offended by my preference for Dark Phoenix over the recent MCU offerings, so its best we leave it there and move on.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well Mystique, if anyone, has an excuse for looking younger than she should.
True, but why? If in the original timeline she looked like Rebecca Romaine by the year 2000ish, why does she still look like J-Law in the mid 90s?
To be fair that's not the worst continuity break considering she dies in this film but is back alive again to fight with the Brotherhood of Mutants in XMen!
Except X-Men doesn’t necessarily happen now, due to DoFP.
I only hope
Spoiler:
Mystique dies in a way similar to Kitty Pryde in the “what if” series where Phoenix kills ALL the X-men, then kills herself after she obliterates Cyclops by accident.
If you'd instead seen, say, Captain Marvel you'd have more enthusiasm for Infinity War and then Spiderman.
Not my problem the trailers for those films weren't that interesting.
And the trailers for Dark Phoenix were? I thought they were quite lame.
You might also consider that a movie line with over 20 profitable movies to it's name, a good half of which can probably be considered blockbusters, might well be doing SOMETHING better than the lackluster performing later X-movies.
Or to go old school about it, "Don't judge a book by it's cover".
It appears you are offended by my preference for Dark Phoenix over the recent MCU offerings, so its best we leave it there and move on.
I'm sorry, I was under the impression you had thought the movie was bad...
Saw it last night. I'd give it a hard 7. Not terrible, but not particularly great either. They had some really good ideas in this film but it kinda gets buried underneath everything they had to get through. Really seemed like there was a great film under there waiting to get out, but the execution was off. More specifics below
Spoiler:
I really enjoyed the dissension between Xavier and Mystique in the beginning of the movie, doubly so because I could sympathize with both perspectives. I also really liked Xavier suppressing Jean's memories to protect her from a painful truth and how that comes around to bite him in the ass, I thought that was excellent. Makes the Professor feel a little more human for being able to make such mistake. I absolutely loved the kitchen scene with Xavier and Hank, no music, Beast smashing the bottle, that whole interaction felt very real and genuine. I also thought the action was a big step up from Apocalypse, you got to see a lot of different characters mixing it up (Nightcrawler especially). Jean finding and confronting her father, Xavier dealing with his mistake, Beast and Magneto wanting revenge - all top notch.
The things I did not like... the beginning of the movie gave me some pretty serious whiplash. I liked seeing Jean as a kid, showing the accident was an important part of the story, but everything after that happened so quickly. There's a shuttle going into space, then a mysterious red cloud, then Professor X is talking to the President on a special phone, then everyone gets into the jet and flies off into space - this all happens in like a minute, just felt like a lot of crazy gak all at once. Then there's an alien invasion by totally-not-Skrulls-we-promise, this seemed a little out there although I will confess I'm probably just spoiled by how the MCU gradually dovetailed into the cosmic stuff whereas the X-Men franchise has been way more grounded up until now. Mystique's death was basically steam-rolled through in the interest of getting on with the movie, but this was an important part of the story that could have used time to breathe. As I said before, the film had too much to get through in its runtime. Villain was pretty forgettable, though it seemed like they could have fleshed her out a lot more by exploring the whole nomad from a destroyed planet angle. Ah well.
I would have preferred a better sendoff for this particular iteration of the X-Men. I'm sure the MCU will do at least a decent job of rebooting the franchise, but for me the new cast will have seriously big shoes to fill. First Class and Days of Future Past I would easily rank with the best of the MCU, and I think McAvoy and Fassbender in particular were absolutely outstanding in their roles. They easily had just as good chemistry, if not moreso, as Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen.
I'm sorry, I was under the impression you had thought the movie was bad...
Not at all. Don't forget I haven't seen Captain Marvel to pass judgement on it, which would be silly. Could be the next winner of 50 academy awards for all I know. Just said I didn't go much on the trailer compared to the Dark Phoenix one.
Vulcan wrote: To be frank, something like Dark Phoenix needs to build over several episodes. Establish Jean and Scott's relationship, establish Mastermind as a villain, add the tension with Logan, Jean's sacrifice and rebirth as Phoenix, then bring in the Hellfire Club as a villain, Phoenix falling under Mastermind's control... and only then see Dark Phoenix unleashed. Bonus points if you'd already established the Shi'ar, done the M'Kronn crystal story and established the Charles/Liliandra relationship.
Yeah, Dark Phoenix was always more about the buildup, slow process where you saw how old Jean was gradually replaced by power-crazy Phoenix personality. It's not something easily done in one movie. At very least, one shouldn't try to do Dark Phoenix without Jason Wyngarde. It doesn't work if the process of seduction by power is not accompanied by literal seduction.
Overall, it was disappointing and rates as the worst movie of the 'new continuity'. It was a mess, though I credit that train fight scene was quite good.
Spoiler:
This movie felt like I was reading a rough draft. Character motivations were all over the place, all the dialogue and lines lacked poignancy and delivery. They should have given this one, preferably two, rewrites before putting it out. I do credit them this time actually reading the source material for inspiration, as opposed to Last Stand where they used it as toilet paper. D'Bari were there (albeit in radically different role), Space shuttle scene, firebird icon, there was touch of Endsong and they even included Xaviers' subtle manipulations which in the comics had left some of his former students resenting him. But it didn't look like they knew what to do with any of it. I was struggling to figure out who I was supposed to feel sympathy for: Jean? No, she killed Mystique for no reason and didn't even attempt to save her even though she perhaps could have. Also responsible for killing her mum. And she finished of massacring the aliens for extinction who only tried to save their race. Aforementioned aliens? No, they tried to wipe out humans. Xavier? No, he was exposed as an donkey-cave. Other mutants? They were hardly given personality to care about them, also they totally wrecked New York and endangered hundreds of innocents to settle their feuds. So I came to conclusion that regular humans were actual protagonists for this movie. In a way.
If I had to write script outline for Dark Phoenix movie, I would have written it so that Mastermind seduces Jean to use her powers, only to end up being her first victim when she goes to deep end. Xavier tries to deal with the threat herself, fails and searches out Magneto and begs his help, to provide firepower and expertise so they at least have a shot against Phoenix. Finally Jean somehow realises/is convinced this is not what she is and sacrifices herself, or lets herself to be defeated, or escapes Earth or something. Roll credits, voilà.
Interviews say they were rewriting the script as they went along so your description is pretty accurate.
It's part of a larger trend where the big action sequences require months of practical photography and CGI so you have these scenes you must do (trip to space, fight in NY, train fight) but the scenes that connect them are almost after thoughts.
As for would have, should have, I don't think that in 2019 in these years of #metoo you can make a movie where Sophie Turner is seduced/raped by a creepy old dude.
The White Queen offering her real financial/political power to go with her mutant powers would be a good 3rd way. You can be humanity's lab dog with the X-Men, you can practice organic farming with Magneto or you can live in a mansion and rule these weak-minded fools as their black queen...
Throw in some lines about Jean being disillusioned before the space mission and you have a plot.
A crappy movie where Sophie Turner's Jean Gray makes her first appearance and is a bit player in the plot is not sufficient build up. The original comic story is so well remembered now because of what it meant to a long standing character and long standing relationships.
You don't just try and pull it off as a hail mary to save your garbage film franchise from mediocrity. It's the same mistake DC has continually made with the DCU. like a dime store bookshop.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Interviews say they were rewriting the script as they went along so your description is pretty accurate.
It's part of a larger trend where the big action sequences require months of practical photography and CGI so you have these scenes you must do (trip to space, fight in NY, train fight) but the scenes that connect them are almost after thoughts.
As for would have, should have, I don't think that in 2019 in these years of #metoo you can make a movie where Sophie Turner is seduced/raped by a creepy old dude.
Wyngarde was not creepy old dude (well, he was in actuality but did not appear like that), that's one reason why the trick worked, Jean genuinely found him attractive. Anyway, in the movie they could just cast some hot guy and forego whole 'fake appearence' angle.
In Turner's previous notable role, her character was forcibly married and then raped...
That's how much Dark Phoenix dropped from weekend 1 to weekend 2.
That's awful. That's shockingly bad.
That's definitely not a good note for a movie franchise to end on. Wonder how many years Marvel will take before they incorporate the next incarnation of X men into the MCU, just to get rid of the bad taste left by the more recent movies.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: As for would have, should have, I don't think that in 2019 in these years of #metoo you can make a movie where Sophie Turner is seduced/raped by a creepy old dude.
That's the trick. Mastermind was a mentalist of quite high power - not as high as Professor X or Phoenix, but stronger than Jean Grey was - and IMMENSE subtlety. His seduction of Phoenix was his masterwork. He was working on her for MONTHS, brushing her subconscious, infiltrating her dreams, and warping her internal perception so gradually she didn't realize anything was wrong until his plans were just a hair shy of fruition. Even then, I suspect she would have never broken free of him without the power unleashed when he tapped into her darker, more hedonistic side, that's how thoroughly he had infiltrated himself into her psyche.
Physically? He never did more than kiss her a few times. No physical seduction was shown, anyway (and Marvel had earlier made it perfectly clear in one scene that Scott and Jean DID have sex; a physical seduction could and should have been made equally clear). But in her dreams he had almost completely replaced Scott as her lover.
That's why you HAVE TO handle the Dark Phoenix story very carefully; why it rewards the slow buildup over numerous intervening plotlines. It takes that long to bring the story to it's climax if you really want to do it justice. Otherwise it's... well, the actress seduced/raped by a creepy old dude, and rather unbelievable. Even for a superhero story.
You know what? I enjoyed it. It wasn't a great movie by any stretch but it was a perfectly serviceable movie. Not a great ending. Not an accurate adaptation, but a decent x men movie. It even had all their typical comic drama and bs.
I think I'm gonna wait to just buy this (I own all the other X-men, so have to complete the collection). But from what I am hearing, I'm not gonna waste the $$$ on 4 tickets (me, my wife and 2 boys).
Which is sad, because I love the movie experience.
Of all of GoT, that is the one and only scene I skip, as it’s just too much. Jaime’s rape of Cersei is likewise a bit too much, but less upsetting to me.
There are some things you need to show, and others where implication is enough. Those two scenes didn’t really add anything other than shock value.
I think they should put the dark phoenix arc into a vault for another time, cause it seems more like a TV Series ARC, not a MOVIE Arc. You need substantial build up and you can't do that in a movie, not even a series.
They have failed to do Cyclops, and almost every character in all of these films feel like their comic book counterparts. The only three who do are Logan, Magneto, and Dr. X. But even then in this movie Magneto and Dr. X are afterthoughts.
God Bless Sophie, but she had very little to work with because of the script. She definitely needed more of an acting range for the part, but this should've taken more time and been several movies. Not just one. You don't do what Justice league do and bang all your buck in one film. You want to build up for the series before you go into the weird stuff and character drama.
There are some things you need to show, and others where implication is enough.
Definitely a difficult line to walk in entertainment.
I remember an episode of Battlestar Galactica( the remake ) where it was implied that the crew of the Pegasus had assaulted the Cylon-Android captive( portrayed by Tricia Helfer ), and that really was enough to go on. I think any further and I would have stopped watching the show altogether.
One good case example is that of Pulp Fiction and Deliverance. Very similar scenes, yet Pulp Fiction was a more comical experience where we the audience are thinking "Whats a gimp? Hang on...what? WTF is going on here? OOOOOOOOOHHHHH NOOOOOO! OH ****-OFF!", where we are laughing, protesting and squirming at the same time. But Deliverance's scene is certainly unwelcome and we begin to question the need for it. Yet...we let Tarantino off the hook for what is fundamentally the same scene.
Alien and The Thing present another fine line in what an audience finds acceptable. Both have very nasty scenes, but one pulls its punches hard and fast without giving the audience time to react and are over quickly, leaving the audience guessing. The other has very graphic attack scenes that drag on a bit and leave nothing to the imagination. One was accepted as a landmark horror film to be preserved, but the other was a commercial and critical failure where the audience was mostly not having a good time. At their foundation, both are very good movies, but one may have gone too far dispite the best intentions of the director(John Carpenter). He was asked to make a horror film and damn well delivered one! But the majority of the audience didn't agree somehow...
In Turner's previous notable role, her character was forcibly married and then raped...
Which even in a show with incest, patricide, betrayal, torture, castration etc stood out among fans as a bit too far.
Besides it denies Phoenix agency, I always preferred the idea that Jean chooses to use her power rather than some villain drives her nuts.
Im gonna probably step on some toes but............Why cant we? This stuff happens in real life, people like the villain exist, heck, its not to far of a stretch to think what a bad person with mind powers would do.
Bad people that do this exist, people that are victims exist. Why not write stories involving it?
In Turner's previous notable role, her character was forcibly married and then raped...
Which even in a show with incest, patricide, betrayal, torture, castration etc stood out among fans as a bit too far.
Besides it denies Phoenix agency, I always preferred the idea that Jean chooses to use her power rather than some villain drives her nuts.
Im gonna probably step on some toes but............Why cant we? This stuff happens in real life, people like the villain exist, heck, its not to far of a stretch to think what a bad person with mind powers would do.
Bad people that do this exist, people that are victims exist. Why not write stories involving it?
Because Dark Phoenix is not a documentary. People watch it to be entertained and not disgusted.
But in the end it's all water under the bridge since no one asked us before the film was made.
At least until 2029 when deep fake technology will be so good we can make our own damn Xmen movies with any actors we choose.
Galef wrote: Which is sad, because I love the movie experience.
I feel you. I go to a lot of movies I know are going to be bad just because I never really got to go to the movies as a kid, so love it now as an adult.
Could'a seen this yesterday. Saw John Wick 3 instead.
The ticket would have been free regardless of which movie I'd seen, but I'd've still felt ripped off had I seen Dark Phoenix. I felt like I owed the theatre money after JW3.
Besides it denies Phoenix agency, I always preferred the idea that Jean chooses to use her power rather than some villain drives her nuts.
Those things do not need to be mutually exclusive. In the comics it was made clear that Jean was very much enjoying her powers even before Mastermind showed up. Wyngarde simply pushed her over the edge, or maybe accelerated the process. See also Dark Willow storyline (which Whedon directly ripped off from X-Men), where Willow corrupted herself but act from villain really pushed her into dark side.
Of course in the course of single movie it is hard to do. They should have foreshadowed it a bit more in the previous one, that would have allowed them to go with more ambitious storyline here.
Personally, I would have gone with the D'bari not necessarily being a thing in the movie either.
I'm not entirely convinced how much an external threat was really needed compared with X-Men just doing normal X-Men things until the Phoenix goes Dark.
Instead, I would have gone with Jessica Chastain literally playing the Phoenix and have her almost as Jean's 'imaginary friend' that gets more extreme throughout the film.
Then the final face off would be Magneto officially forming the Mutant Brotherhood (and Mystique joining them), essentially taking the Shiar Imperium's role in the story.
Jean joins with Phoenix > Jean working with Phoenix. > Phoenix starts going dark, as it craves new sensations > Dark Phoenix beats the X-Men > A planet goes explodey > Jean rejects The Dark Phoenix > Xavier and Cyclops help suppress the Dark Phoenix > Magneto and Brotherhood decides this Isn't Good Enough > Battle > Jean feels the Phoenix starting to Rise again > Final Rejection of Jean and her sacrifice. > End
Looking at that though, that definitely goes back to there being enough arcs in there for 2 movies. Or at the very least, an Infinity war length one.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Besides it denies Phoenix agency, I always preferred the idea that Jean chooses to use her power rather than some villain drives her nuts.
Well... that's more or less what happened in the comics. It's possible that Phoenix would have gone that route eventually anyway, but Mastermind's influence on her most definitely was the trigger for her to go over the edge when she did.
Besides, in the end it was perfectly clear that Jean - Jean, not Scott, not Professor X, not the Imperial Guard, not the Shi'ar Empress, not even the Phoenix - made the final decision in her life. I would say that demonstrates Jean's agency far better than having Jean just decide to go completely psychotic one day for no particular reason.
Yeah, the Animated Series actually made this far more explicit than in the comic, if I remember right. I remember being far more impressed by Jean sacrificing herself on TV than when I read the comic for the first time.
No, it was pretty explicit in the comic that Jean was choosing to die. Possibly even more so than in the animated series, as Liliandra was not there to fire the weapon at her....
I think trying to get the details of this story right is generally just not the right way to go. Particularly in hindsight of all the retcons to it, its really easy to lose sight of what made the original story special. Space missions, cosmic entity, Shi'ar and all that just detract from the parts of the story that really hold up. Of course, part of the problem is just that the parts that hold up have had the Carrie/Willow/Akira/Firestarter/White Violin etc treatment so many times at this point that they're hard to pull off the same impact with.
Comic readers saw Jean as a character who would NEVER go bad while modern audiences see her character as one destined to. That really takes a lot of fangs out of the story as a whole, as every time the character is included in a new adaptation, you're seeing how they'll try to angle her into the Dark Phoenix role.
I do think the Mastermind aspect is probably the most important one that gets left out. I think its where you can reel in the overblown melodrama and build a more subtle tale of corruption. Jean needs to grow frustrated with the world around her and break when it extends to those closest to her. Build a story around the school, with schoolyard conflicts exacerbated by Mastermind altering how people perceive what happens. Have Jean use her powers to influence someone her way in a small way and let that little abuse scale up. Let everyone feel betrayed that Jean abused their trust and let Jean grow frustrated that everyone is mad when she was just trying to help.
That's the kind of thing that makes these stories work and even what made the original work. It's not about alien firebirds; its about someone with the power to control anyone feeling shackled by the uncooperative nature of other people. It's a template story, but if you want to adapt it you need to get to the root of it and do it better. Otherwise you're destined to come across as a cliche of your own making.
Of course in the course of single movie it is hard to do. They should have foreshadowed it a bit more in the previous one, that would have allowed them to go with more ambitious storyline here.
Well, no, what they should have done is accepted that they already covered (badly, but still) the Dark Phoenix story arc, and not wasted a second movie doing the same story again when there are so many more interesting X-men story arcs they could have adapted instead.
I find myself agreeing with LunaSol. I never thought much of it, but maybe the reason Dark Phoenix stuff in adaptations has felt so lame so consistently is that it's just a one hit wonder. A one hit wonder that shadows the Jean Gray character such that it's impossible for it to ever have the same impact ever again.
[quote=LunarSol 764438 10480033 344c3eb3d4dd1164c97c6382c96f487e.jpgComic readers saw Jean as a character who would NEVER go bad while modern audiences see her character as one destined to. That really takes a lot of fangs out of the story as a whole, as every time the character is included in a new adaptation, you're seeing how they'll try to angle her into the Dark Phoenix role.
I mean if you want a great version of the Dark Phoenix Adapted into the TV Series just look at no further than Buffy the vampire slayer with Willow. Like it has an agency of a character entirely, and she is the most freakishly powerful person in that setting... Plus its a gradual fall of an escalation of bad decisions that leads to complete meltdown and a traumatic event that sets it off... Almost like how Jean Gray should go through a gradual fall and then the igniter or inciting incident that causes a flurry of terrible decisions at risk to the character.
My general feeling about this movie can be summarized as
Ugh Not Again.
Maybe... just maybe, she sends Dr. X. into a coma thus removing the "Why didn't Dr. X not just freeze her entirely? Cause he is the most powerful psychic on the planet." etc. Literally removing a major player. This could be done with the influences of the Mastermind. Influencing and pushing her into making what she think is the right decision. OR to give more agency to the character, she just makes a decision because she is afraid.
In terms of classic filmology, the best fall characters are the ones where it is over time throughout the movie, One word comes to mind... Rosebud.
It can be gripping, sad, emotional gut wrench. But that didn't happen here, instead, we got a half baked character with little emotional depth and character development from the previous movies. She has only been in one property in this series of films. We have no emotional connection and we really don't care about this jean gray. We don't even care about this team.
Nevermind that none of them are acting like... well responsible people. Where the main character should be Cyclops and Jean Gray. And that turbulent relationship or maybe the relationship is not going well or Cyclops isn't interested anymore, or maybe jean gray is off her rocker. Literally, anything to give us the emotional connection between these two other than "I like dis girl."
Make cyclops the budding leader just like the TV show or comics. these roles are already at odds with Magneto and Dr. Macavoy and its distracting because they shouldn't even be that major in the film. Their time was Days of Future Past and First Class.
Magneto and Dr. Macavoy have already had their emotional and impactful moments. They are and should be fully realized characters. Yet they keep pushing them back to square one like those things didn't happen. Then we get to this movie and we have all these new characters and they have had 0 development in any real capacity.
I agree with Lunar in that the role has to be built up and not this sudden 180-degree flip.
If anyone is on the fence about this movie
Literally, go to the theater next door and watch Toy Story 4. Or helk John Wick 3. Which probably have far better-developed story and characters. Do not waste your money on this movie, get it from the library when it is free. There is no point to waste a dime on it.
This is nothing to do with the narrative failure of this film. After all, it's not like Citizen Kane was the fourth part in a franchise, to borrow your comparison. If it was done properly, they could have done the whole story in one film, but they didn't.
They should have doubled down on this being the last in their Xmen arc, and have the dark phoenix succeed
self sacrifice is less and less appreciated in politics, the media and society in general so it would have fitted in perfectly
Give Jean the moment of decision, show her considering it and then have her accept her dark destiny and flap off into the void to do dark phoenix-y things
(and this is from somebody who liked the original comic arc, its just been done so many times they might as well do something different especially as a movie doesn't give the chance to slow build it like the comics)
Comic readers saw Jean as a character who would NEVER go bad while modern audiences see her character as one destined to. That really takes a lot of fangs out of the story as a whole, as every time the character is included in a new adaptation, you're seeing how they'll try to angle her into the Dark Phoenix role.
that is a really good observation. I wonder if a bait and switch would have worked, Jean resists the Phoenix so it migrates to a new host it can reshape any way it wants - Mystique!
It would actually give Jennifer Lawrence something to do too...
LordofHats wrote: I find myself agreeing with LunaSol. I never thought much of it, but maybe the reason Dark Phoenix stuff in adaptations has felt so lame so consistently is that it's just a one hit wonder. A one hit wonder that shadows the Jean Gray character such that it's impossible for it to ever have the same impact ever again.
That's.... distressingly true.
Perhaps then the best answer is to NOT do the Phoenix story again, even if that means we never see it done well on screen.
"“First you had Captain Marvel, then you had Avengers Endgame, then you had Dark Phoenix, and ... Spiderman [Far From Home]. So suddenly it’s boom, boom, boom, boom instead of a single boom, and that makes any analysis of the film and how it related to the original concept and how it related to the film’s original concept significantly more complicated.”"
“It’s just that in just sheer weight of numbers, what did X-Men: Dark Phoenix have? It had Sophie. And what did Avengers have? Twenty-eight A-list stars,” he added.
Perhaps then the best answer is to NOT do the Phoenix story again, even if that means we never see it done well on screen.
FWIW, I think one guy failing to adapt it well twice by making all of the same mistakes is any indication it can't be done; I just also get why it doesn't translate the way people want it to. Lets get one thing out of the way. The Phoenix Force itself is not part of the original text and the retcon is pretty messy on the whole. Technically the retcon removes Jean from the story entirely, as its actually some kind of physical manifestation of psychic energy willed into reality based on Jean (kind of like Onslaught now that I think on it) with the Phoenix using it to experience humanity like some kind slightly less weird version of Being John Malkovich. So while the retcon is pretty beloved largely because Jean as Phoenix is really cool and more iconic than Jean as Marvel Girl or "the one X-Man without a code name" it really messes with the perception of the original story.
There are plenty of ways to do this kind of story though, but at the heart of it you have to make it relatable. Recently Umbrella Academy (and spoilers ahead if you haven't seen/read it) gave us a great example, both by properly creating a character burndened by a lifetime of social constraint lashing out as well as plenty of examples of power being corruptive in the face of adversity. I think legitmately the best "Dark Phoenix" scene in recent memory actually comes from when Allison "rumors" her daughter into cooperation. It's subtle and harmless and relatable and monstrous all in an instant and seeing how quickly it errodes her familial relationships comes across rather organically from there.
That's probably one of the big aspects the X-Men films have lacked. In the comics, they're often presented more as a family, with a lot more emphasis on the school and their developing relationships. I think that's where the potential to do the story justice lies. Emma as a rival for Scott's affection (even incorporating the psychic affair perhaps), Mastermind as the manipulator, play up school level themes like social insecurity and the like focused on that time in life where you just wish you knew what other people were thinking centered on a character who CAN know what everyone is thinking. That's where the escalation can lie in a movie. You just have to get to it before you've already escalated the franchise to dropping sports arenas on DC or whatever it was that happened in Apocalypse.
LordofHats wrote: I find myself agreeing with LunaSol. I never thought much of it, but maybe the reason Dark Phoenix stuff in adaptations has felt so lame so consistently is that it's just a one hit wonder. A one hit wonder that shadows the Jean Gray character such that it's impossible for it to ever have the same impact ever again.
I think another problem with adapting DPS is that....well....rereading the original comics storyline, Dark Phoenix is kind of a weak villain. She doesn't really do much except brag about how awesome she is and how she's life and power incarnate, and beat up the X-Men. Even destroying the planet was an accident rather than malicious. If she'd been a new villain, she'd have been pretty forgettable, the dramatic weight of the storyline all came from who Jean had been before she became Dark Phoenix. Retellings seem to struggle with "okay, she's super-powerful and evil....what do we do with her now?".
While acknowleding the messy publication history (which I'm given to understand is chalk full of retcons back and forth), the one thing I've always looked back on Dark Phoenix and thought was cool was the Phoenix Force angle, something most adaptations fail to dive into at all. Rather than a Jean who goes crazy and just starts muderizing, I think these stories might play better for us today by focusing more on the Lovecraftian Phoenix Force.
The Phoenix Force isn't evil per se. It's the literal ultimate embodiment of life. It's just that it's a supreme cosmic being and to it, humans and our wants are but ants in a vast universe. It is intself a much more interesting character and angle than anything I've seen in any Dark Phoenix story, but of course Marvel can't keep itself straight on that front.
Yeah, that's why I was thinking Jessica Chastain as a personification of the Phoenix force to communicate with Jean would have been a good angle to take on it.
