Space Marine chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines because:
Space Marine standard Company does not have 100 Astartes. It is very clear in the Fall of Damnos where the Ultramarines 2nd Company is depicted. There are 10 squads of 10, followed by Captain Sicarius, his HQ and Dreadnoughts. The roster here doesn't even include vehicle operators like Chronos. I believe Space Marine vehicles are driven by Servitors, but the guns are mostly operated by a Space Marine (a Predator would need at least 1 Space Marine inside).
10th Company can have as many Scouts as they like. Scouts are indeed Space Marines, even if they are not fully grown yet.
Space Marines sometimes have to dispatch squads to patrol, garrison, infiltration duties that take them away from their Chapter. They also die in battle, which leave their position vacant. However, a Company will be reluctant to go to war without all 10 squads accounted for and they can't wait a year or two for the Scouts to fully grow and replenish their ranks. Which means each Chapter must have Space Marine reserves that can be called upon to join a company or take part in other less grandeur duties like mentioned above.
Successor Chapters are created from excess of their parent Chapter. When a Chapter is deemed pure and successful enough that there will soon be more Space Marines in their rank than what the Codex Astartes deem appropriate, the excess is then evaluated by the Lord of Terra and split into a new Chapter after being supplied with new equipment, warship, right to build their fortress and fresh recruits.
So please, both GW and BL writers, stop putting 1000 as the figure for how many Space Marines a Chapter has. A single Space Marine makes a different. There is a big difference between 1000 Marines (what we are driven to believe) and 1100-1200 Marines (what a full-strength Chapter should have).
It’s an indicative number. I don’t see the issue. They picked a big, round number then their own fluff got away from them a little. So they mean “round about 1,000, probably a little more” but say “1,000” to keep it brief? So what? It’s not a big deal.
The 1000 Marines has always been a nominal strength, not including auxiliary units. Plenty of Space Marine auxiliaries are acknowledged to be outside the standard structure, and therefore potentially bringing the Chapter over 1000 Marines. As this is standard practice, the 1000 is just accepted as short hand. Considering battle casualties, many Chapters will be well under 1000 for extended periods through attrition.
Auxiliary units: Command staff (Captains and Chapter Masters) Command squads Honour guard Reclusiam Librarius Apothecarium Armoury (Techmarines- as far as I can tell, vehicles are usually crewed by Techmarines, with additional crew being drawn from the reserve companies. There isn't a standing force of crew-Marines. Chronus is an exception who has been permanently inducted into the armoury) Other support staff (Fleet crew in particular. It is not clear how they are recruited) Dreadnoughts Scout company
Yes, the entire Scout company is not really counted. There is no set limit on the size of a Scout company in the Codex Astartes, and a Chapter can have any number of Scout companies (the Aurora Chapter maintains three if I remember correctly). Chapters that have high attrition rates (like the Imperial Fists) typically have large Scout companies.
The other area that is not clear is garrison forces. Often, they are clearly detached from a standard company. Other times, they seem to be stand-alone troops, and may possibly be acceptable outside the standard Codex Astartes structure, perhaps within certain conditions.
I may have missed some.
None of this is new background, it is just a kind of accepted loophole to allow Chapters to operate the required specialists. It would be difficult to quantify anyway, because none of these auxiliary structures have any formal limits, so they vary massively between Chapters. Some don't even have the entire Librarius. Add combat casualties, and you can see why they just round to 1000 and be done with it. A Chapter deploying in strength beyond 1000 is going to be an incredibly rare event.
The Inquisition doesn't get particularly worried until Chapters start growing into the several thousand, like the Astral Claws, Dark Angels, or Black Templars... (the two Loyal Chapters avoid suspicion by spreading out their forces sufficiently so that no one can really count the true total).
Successors are typically made from excess geneseed, not Marines, although the latter does happen.
the dark angels are no differant in size from a codex chapter Haighus, (unless you're one of those people convinced the deathwing and the ravenwing are huge units with hundreds of individuals) ther dark angels do cordinate closely with their sucessors but TBH even that is proably over played. we've seen Imperial Fists (in war of the beast) Ultramarines (under Gulliman)
but moving b ack, yeah a codex chapter is a lot bigger then 1000 marines let's take a looksie at how all this works out..
Chaplains: assume a chapter has 1 chaplain per company and a head chaplain running them, thats 11
Apocatharies: we'll assume 1 per company and then 2 more to handle geneseed implantation among new aspirants. so 12
Tech Marines: I'm going to assume 1 per company but I susect it's much higher so 10.
Librarians: Psykers are rare, I'm going to assume a chapter will have 5
Honor Guard and command squads: I'm going to assume about 3 per company
so that's proably around 70-75 additional marines. and it's possiable that there are a LOT more apocatharies and tech marines then 1 per company.
Its just for those Chapters that would follow the Codex Astartes, it excludes all those said in above, the reserve are usually the latter numerical companies.
Ask if the Black Templars or Space Wolfs care if their number be strictly at 1k, its a ridiculous small #. There are Chapters that are wiped out or well below strength fairly consistent too, not to mention those that are excommunicated. Take it with a cup of salt, it was never meant to be like it is when Gulliman wrote the Codex Astartes, always a guideline.
granted well we don't have a number for the black templars even the space wolves have been estimated as being 1500 Marines tops, and likely closer to 1200
bibotot wrote: S¨However, a Company will be reluctant to go to war without all 10 squads accounted for and they can't wait a year or two for the Scouts to fully grow and replenish their ranks. Which means each Chapter must have Space Marine reserves that can be called upon to join a company or take part in other less grandeur duties like mentioned above.
Source? Plenty of references to understrenght companies. Why would space marines work differently to that to real life anyway? Casualties happen. Reinforcements don't come magically. Having every battle start with full amount of squads each at full numbers is just silly idea.
Also remember that every chapter interprets the codex differently. For many chapters, and certainly the examples given in a lot of GW publications, the strength seems to be "1000 combat marines, plus a bit more, if all the squads were full in the reserve companies" - given that at any time the reserve companies are likely to be understrength to keep the battle companies up to full force.
It seems very unlikely that the Inquisition will get bent out of shape about a Marine chapter being nominally 10% over strength - and what can they actually do about it? If you want to tell a chapter master that he's getting too big, best of luck to you - there is no chain of command telling that Marines what they have to do. There's a massive chain of treaties and obligations, with individual chapters being kept in line largely by the peer pressure of other, nearby chapters. It's these other chapters who will get insistent on a chapter reducing size if its getting too big, and if the chapter master is in good standing they won't. Or you get a Tyrant of Badab situation, and everything gets messy.
It's very likely that if your chapter is over strength, the other chapter masters will have an expectation that when the next big crusade rolls around, the one with the huge expected casualty rate, you're going to be first in the queue.
There will be other chapters who will say "1000 Marines and NO MORE, this is the true interpretation of the Codex" - and will therefore have less than 100 full squads, at all times, because command staff, Librarius, chaplains etc. count against this.
For further fun, remember that except in certain cases like the Iron Hands, where crew are wired into their vehicles, if the Chapter doesn't need tank crew that day the Marines won't be sitting around drinking tea while everyone else clambers into a drop pod. They'll be getting their bolters out of the locker to hit the ground with everyone else, or possibly doing flight prep on the Thunderhawks which will be going down for extract after the mission. A key thing is that pretty much every marine can do everything. That's how a chapter gets to be so small.
So as with all things marine-ish - take your pick. It's your chapter, unless you're going first founding, and even then things are pretty woolly. That's before we even get close to wondering how Primaris fit into the overall Order of Battle.
It's very likely that if your chapter is over strength, the other chapter masters will have an expectation that when the next big crusade rolls around, the one with the huge expected casualty rate, you're going to be first in the queue.
There will be other chapters who will say "1000 Marines and NO MORE, this is the true interpretation of the Codex" - and will therefore have less than 100 full squads, at all times, because command staff, Librarius, chaplains etc. count against this.
.
no there won't. the codex does not say "1000 marines NO MORE" it says something to the extent of "And a Chapter shalt consist of ten companies, the first company shalt be the vetern company, and shalt consist of ten squads of veterns. see chapter 33 appendix D for more details. Chapters 2-5 shalt be Battle companies, orginzied as dictated in chapter 23." etc
This is what I do to, it makes much more sense with every codex. Oh 10.000 guardsmen conquered an entire planet? Add a few zeroes and its more acceptable. A company of a 1000 marines I can see engaging in more defensive actions like shown in the fluff. Kind of makes you wonder, do the people writing BL books have a piece of paper they note each marine death on so they don't manage to kill over a 100
I think it gets broken down quite well in the 8th ed Marines codex, though never explicitly saying “1000” anywhere.
Essentially, the 1000 limit was a limit imposed on “fighting strength” (the exact wording is escaping me right now), but, essentially it states that a Chapter shouldn’t have more than 1000 active fighting troops in the 10 companies. This doesn’t include the Captain and 2 Lieutenants in each company, nor any attached support units, vehicles etc.
So, overall, a Chapter could realistically be pushing more towards 1500-1800 “marines” once to take everything into account.
A count for a slightly deviant chapter would put the total amount of marines around 1700 – which includes those “marines” inside Dreadnoughts, and the idea that each vehicle requires 1 additional marine to pilot it, alongside a force of roughly 370-380 scouts (each Company, bar the 1st, has its own scout contingent as opposed to having the 10th as just scouts -30 scouts and 12 bikers isn’t too unrealistic imo).
However, in regards to the “fighting strength” of battleline, fire support and close support figures, each company maxes out at 100.
Looking in the Marine 8th codex, we can see that the Ultramarines “Armoury” consists of 27 Techmarines, 95 servitors, 52 tanks, 12 land raiders, 14 gunships, 24 centurians, 19 landspeeders. From what we can presume, those each have their own pilots which are separate from the 1000 battleline figure. Just presuming 1 marine per vehicle puts an additional 124 marines onto the roster straight away. Then you have 11 Chaplains, Apothecaries and Librarians, then 10 Company Ancients, 1 Chapter Ancient, for a total of 44. Then the Dreadnought count, which could be as many as you want, which the Ultramarines have 26, then the count of 95 servitors puts numbers at 1189 before the ”unlimited” Honour Guard numbers and scouts. THEN, things like Rhinos, Repulsors, Razorbacks are all additions outside of the armoury figure and also likely have dedicated drivers.
I also think that the figures for things like gunships are a little low. If you think about each of the 9 companies operating independently most of the time, each would likely maintain at least 1 troop transport like a Stormraven, they’ll likely have a couple of ground attack gunships (ala Stormtalons) and then, they’d almost certainly have some fighter craft for void and in-atmosphere fighting, in the form of a Xiphon or something else. So, taking that as a pure min estimate, you’d expect to see a figure of at least 27 “gunships” if not more – especially for ship based Chapters.
My numbers are, of course based off a fleet based Chapter that maintains 10 full companies with scouts assigned to each company rather than being the “10th” company, putting each company outside of the 1st at roughly 154 bodies before taking Dreadnoughts, vehicle crews and servitors into account. (and by full company, I mean, if they were at 100% strength)
It's very likely that if your chapter is over strength, the other chapter masters will have an expectation that when the next big crusade rolls around, the one with the huge expected casualty rate, you're going to be first in the queue.
There will be other chapters who will say "1000 Marines and NO MORE, this is the true interpretation of the Codex" - and will therefore have less than 100 full squads, at all times, because command staff, Librarius, chaplains etc. count against this.
.
no there won't. the codex does not say "1000 marines NO MORE" it says something to the extent of "And a Chapter shalt consist of ten companies, the first company shalt be the vetern company, and shalt consist of ten squads of veterns. see chapter 33 appendix D for more details. Chapters 2-5 shalt be Battle companies, orginzied as dictated in chapter 23." etc
Your codex doesn't. The copy kept as a holy relic by the chapter in question might, and might be missing chapter 33 appendix D.
The 1000 Marines thing has been pretty solidly debunked by GW themselves in the 3rd edition Codex (or maybe 4th, can't remember). It had the disposition of the UM chapter, the most Codex compliant of all, showing it well understrength due to casualties in the Battle Companies. It's also pretty obvious that even a fully Codex compliant chapter will have all sorts of auxiliary and command staff so the 1000 Marines was always more of a soundbite than actual fact.
JohnnyHell wrote: It’s an indicative number. I don’t see the issue. They picked a big, round number then their own fluff got away from them a little. So they mean “round about 1,000, probably a little more” but say “1,000” to keep it brief? So what? It’s not a big deal.
I understand if it is rounding, but they make it look like it's a hard and fast rule. You want 1001 Space Marines? The Codex Astartes does not approve. Also, you can't round 1100 or 1200 down to 1000. 100 Space Marines is a very powerful force.
JohnnyHell wrote: It’s an indicative number. I don’t see the issue. They picked a big, round number then their own fluff got away from them a little. So they mean “round about 1,000, probably a little more” but say “1,000” to keep it brief? So what? It’s not a big deal.
I understand if it is rounding, but they make it look like it's a hard and fast rule. You want 1001 Space Marines? The Codex Astartes does not approve. Also, you can't round 1100 or 1200 down to 1000. 100 Space Marines is a very powerful force.
No they don’t. The latest Codex states each company has a hundred Warriors plus a Captain, so that’s 1010 dudes to start with, plus vehicle crew, Dreadnoughts, plus “officers and specialists” including Apothecaries, Chaplains, Techmarines, etc. So we’ll over 1,000 even by the latest Codex fluff.
Rhino crews
Tank crews
Honor Guard
Librarius
Apothecarion
Reclusium
Company Veterans
etc are not taken into account of the chapter's numbers. And you can get chapters with absolutely outlandish amounts of apothecaries/librarians just to begin there.
Occums razor that GW writers have a very poor sense of scale. (I'm looking at you Tau timeline blurb where a company of firewarriors take over a hive world of uncounted billions) The whole, 1 marine per world for the million worlds of the imperium is just downright silly.
Marines at 1000, unfortunately, make no sense for the kind of fluff they are written. If marines were a scalpel special operations force that strikes, does a discreet objective, then withdraws, then it makes a bit more sense. Any battle will have some casualties but the goal then would just be to reserve your super human warriors for key moments in battle then they grow some new ones.
But that's frankly just not the case in the fluff. Open ground warfare, sieges on both sides of the wall, attrition battles, etc. are all the common story. Besides being tactically stupid, the immense casualties taken in the fluff would render a chapter unusable very quickly even if the reserve companies were at full strength to reinforce. Oh wait, it gets stupider, a chapter doesn't fight as a full force but instead breaks up their strength when they fight. We are to believe that a chapter is broken up across several parts of the galaxy at one time can be an effective fighting force against literally numberless xenos and chaos forces. Again, GW writers just have no sense of scale.
But the other fun parts are that supposedly, among the 1000 marines, that also includes piloting their vehicles and crewing at least the bridge of massive starships. If true, they either don't count those guys (ya, stupid support staff, take that!) or it makes the 1000 number even more silly because, again, it's almost never a whole chapter in a conflict which means even fewer actual combat troops.
But hey, its a game not a hard science narrative. They want players to feel like their super space marines can walk across an battlefield and engage tank forces no problem. You just have suspend reality to enjoy it is all.
As a Chapter was a tactical formation at the time, like a Brigade or Regiment. The Legions broken down into Chapters would be like a Division broken down into independent brigade groups. I think that the 1000 marine idea came later, 10 companies of 100 marines, when RG probably meant something like Regimental strength.
I imagine the ultramarines in particular must have an ENORMOUS reserve of scouts, considering how many worlds they have to recruit from, with millennia to have shaped the societies in what ever wayd are needed to produce the most aspirants.
It would be cool to see Ultramarine forces field a realtivly small command of full astartes and otherwise have a huge force of scouts doing alot of the tactical heavy lifting in a battle.
JohnnyHell wrote: It’s an indicative number. I don’t see the issue. They picked a big, round number then their own fluff got away from them a little. So they mean “round about 1,000, probably a little more” but say “1,000” to keep it brief? So what? It’s not a big deal.
Yeah, this thread reminds me of when I tell my boys that it's 9 o'clock and time for bed, but it's really 8:57 and they both want to argue about it for those 3 miniutes. I just take all their devices away and walk out of their room
BrianDavion wrote: the dark angels are no differant in size from a codex chapter Haighus, (unless you're one of those people convinced the deathwing and the ravenwing are huge units with hundreds of individuals) ther dark angels do cordinate closely with their sucessors but TBH even that is proably over played. we've seen Imperial Fists (in war of the beast) Ultramarines (under Gulliman)
but moving b ack, yeah a codex chapter is a lot bigger then 1000 marines let's take a looksie at how all this works out..
Chaplains: assume a chapter has 1 chaplain per company and a head chaplain running them, thats 11 Apocatharies: we'll assume 1 per company and then 2 more to handle geneseed implantation among new aspirants. so 12 Tech Marines: I'm going to assume 1 per company but I susect it's much higher so 10. Librarians: Psykers are rare, I'm going to assume a chapter will have 5 Honor Guard and command squads: I'm going to assume about 3 per company
so that's proably around 70-75 additional marines. and it's possiable that there are a LOT more apocatharies and tech marines then 1 per company.
This is the Blood Angels, the Ultramarines had similar numbers. Most Chapters have a smaller Honour guard, but I suspect the other numbers are broadly similar.
It was in one of their Codices I thought? They seem to have a suspicious number of full Marines on garrison duty in their many Chapter keeps, managing recruitment, yet are able to simultaneously do full strength Chapter deployments without pulling in these reserves. It is a subtle increase, a few Marines here and there, not something obvious like huge 'wings. I remember it potentially adding up to something like twice the usual number, but all speculation- only the Dark Angels themselves know.
Black Templars are estimated to be around 5000-6000ish in their 4th ed Codex, but again a very tenous estimation. Black Templars probably vary considerably, but they are commonly assumed to be overstrength, due to their many and varied Crusade deployments. There is a sort of tacit acceptance, so long as they don't group them together in one place as a Legion.
Astral Claws were estimated to reach around 3500 before their heresy was exterminated in the Badab war. They were caught though
Space Wolves are the hardest to assess. The largest Great company was over 200 Marines, if I remember correctly, and Morkai's company is ~120 Marines strong. With 12 companies, I think the Space Wolves could easily be between 1500 and 2000 strong. 1200 would be right at the lowest possible end, and would need at least two companies to be considerably under the strength of 100 Marines to average out the known larger companies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tygre wrote: As a Chapter was a tactical formation at the time, like a Brigade or Regiment. The Legions broken down into Chapters would be like a Division broken down into independent brigade groups. I think that the 1000 marine idea came later, 10 companies of 100 marines, when RG probably meant something like Regimental strength.
Chapters were originally around 10,000 strong in the GC and HH, so it is interesting how Guilliman shrunk them down.
Space Marine numbers are pretty hilariously ridiculous when put in context and given a modicum of thought (a thousand marines aren't going to conquer and hold a major city, much less entire star systems, even being super soldiers youd need millions or billions just to cover all that ground and territory for half the stuff they talk about), but the "thousand" number was never assumed to be exact, there are officers and auxiliaries and whatnot, it's always been a rough approximation.
The point of breaking up the legions was so that one charismatic leader couldn't have 20k to 300k marines fall to chaos. Roughly 1000 to 1500 leaves a chapter enough to be an effective fighting force while not being enough to wreck the galaxy.
It does make me laugh though that you could argue the Space Wolves are one of the most compliant with the intent. Unlike the Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, and Ultras they have no secret pact to be a legion again with their various successors.
Reminds me of the If the emperor had a pod cast where the boy points out if the black Templar had crusaded through planets and always left a recruitment keep with a chaplain and a apothecary then there would be a metric butt ton of angry and bored marines on agri and feral worlds.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The point of breaking up the legions was so that one charismatic leader couldn't have 20k to 300k marines fall to chaos. Roughly 1000 to 1500 leaves a chapter enough to be an effective fighting force while not being enough to wreck the galaxy.
It does make me laugh though that you could argue the Space Wolves are one of the most compliant with the intent. Unlike the Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, and Ultras they have no secret pact to be a legion again with their various successors.
Because up until 20 minutes ago they didn't have any successors. The one attempt failed genetically and even then it was a sham attempt to keep Rowboat Girlman from soiling his knickers in impotent rage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: Reminds me of the If the emperor had a pod cast where the boy points out if the black Templar had crusaded through planets and always left a recruitment keep with a chaplain and a apothecary then there would be a metric butt ton of angry and bored marines on agri and feral worlds.
Didn't they retcon BT to be chapter strength? But in any case, they were so spread out that it would be impossible to keep secret if they ever did try and form up as a cohesive whole.
BaconCatBug wrote: The one attempt failed genetically and even then it was a sham attempt to keep Rowboat Girlman from soiling his knickers in impotent rage.
Wouldn't the concern have actually bee his very potent rage, considering his position post heresy?
Desubot wrote: I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.
but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show
One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.
Desubot wrote: I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.
but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show
One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.
It is also fairly easy to reconcile the two positions by simply stating that the entiriety of the Black Templars that could be successfully recalled were present, but that there were still plenty of far-flung garrisons and Crusades that could not disengage.
Also, the Eternal Crusader was the Imperial Fists Legion Gloriana battleship, similar to the Vengeful Spirit or Macragge's Honour. Therefore it is enormous, twice the size of a typical battle barge. I am not surprised the Templars could not adequately crew it. The only reason it was not the Imperial Fist's Legion flagship (as Glorianas typically were) is because they had the even more colossal Phalanx instead
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: Reminds me of the If the emperor had a pod cast where the boy points out if the black Templar had crusaded through planets and always left a recruitment keep with a chaplain and a apothecary then there would be a metric butt ton of angry and bored marines on agri and feral worlds.
I would think they would rotate them into frontline service as much as is practical, to maintain combat skills and relieve boredom.
Desubot wrote: I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.
but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show
One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.
It is also fairly easy to reconcile the two positions by simply stating that the entiriety of the Black Templars that could be successfully recalled were present, but that there were still plenty of far-flung garrisons and Crusades that could not disengage.
Also, the Eternal Crusader was the Imperial Fists Legion Gloriana battleship, similar to the Vengeful Spirit or Macragge's Honour. Therefore it is enormous, twice the size of a typical battle barge. I am not surprised the Templars could not adequately crew it. The only reason it was not the Imperial Fist's Legion flagship (as Glorianas typically were) is because they had the even more colossal Phalanx instead
His stance on their size is including the other Crusades, that even with those, there is still only 1k marines, apparently its GWs new stance on the Templars, or was who knows these days because it wasnt well received. Also my remembrance of what was said about them regarding the Eternal Crusader was off. Apparently the entirety of the Chapter could gather and not tax the Capabilities and that the 200 Marines of Helbrecht's Crusade (one fifth of the Templar's Total) left the ship feeling completely empty. I know its a Gloriana, but if the Chapter was at older fluff's size it wouldnt be that empty. Hell if 200 Marines is One-fifth of the Chapter strength, the Chapter is only One thousand strong.
bibotot wrote: Space Marine chapters DO NOT have 1000 Marines because:
Space Marine standard Company does not have 100 Astartes. It is very clear in the Fall of Damnos where the Ultramarines 2nd Company is depicted. There are 10 squads of 10, followed by Captain Sicarius, his HQ and Dreadnoughts. The roster here doesn't even include vehicle operators like Chronos. I believe Space Marine vehicles are driven by Servitors, but the guns are mostly operated by a Space Marine (a Predator would need at least 1 Space Marine inside).
10th Company can have as many Scouts as they like. Scouts are indeed Space Marines, even if they are not fully grown yet.
Space Marines sometimes have to dispatch squads to patrol, garrison, infiltration duties that take them away from their Chapter. They also die in battle, which leave their position vacant. However, a Company will be reluctant to go to war without all 10 squads accounted for and they can't wait a year or two for the Scouts to fully grow and replenish their ranks. Which means each Chapter must have Space Marine reserves that can be called upon to join a company or take part in other less grandeur duties like mentioned above.
Successor Chapters are created from excess of their parent Chapter. When a Chapter is deemed pure and successful enough that there will soon be more Space Marines in their rank than what the Codex Astartes deem appropriate, the excess is then evaluated by the Lord of Terra and split into a new Chapter after being supplied with new equipment, warship, right to build their fortress and fresh recruits.
So please, both GW and BL writers, stop putting 1000 as the figure for how many Space Marines a Chapter has. A single Space Marine makes a different. There is a big difference between 1000 Marines (what we are driven to believe) and 1100-1200 Marines (what a full-strength Chapter should have).
Not all companies have the same amount of marines. Vehicles are manned by marines, weapons are normally manned by servitors.
Desubot wrote: I dont recall a retcon. nor do i recall a retcon on how their fleet based recruitment works.
but i haven't been looking hard. i just enjoy that show
One of the Guy Haley books talks about how Helbrecht lied about troop strength at Armageddon to get Command, and that the Entirety of the Black Templars marshalled together was not enough to crew the Eternal Crusader. His changes to the Templars are generally ignored.
It is also fairly easy to reconcile the two positions by simply stating that the entiriety of the Black Templars that could be successfully recalled were present, but that there were still plenty of far-flung garrisons and Crusades that could not disengage.
Also, the Eternal Crusader was the Imperial Fists Legion Gloriana battleship, similar to the Vengeful Spirit or Macragge's Honour. Therefore it is enormous, twice the size of a typical battle barge. I am not surprised the Templars could not adequately crew it. The only reason it was not the Imperial Fist's Legion flagship (as Glorianas typically were) is because they had the even more colossal Phalanx instead
His stance on their size is including the other Crusades, that even with those, there is still only 1k marines, apparently its GWs new stance on the Templars, or was who knows these days because it wasnt well received. Also my remembrance of what was said about them regarding the Eternal Crusader was off. Apparently the entirety of the Chapter could gather and not tax the Capabilities and that the 200 Marines of Helbrecht's Crusade (one fifth of the Templar's Total) left the ship feeling completely empty. I know its a Gloriana, but if the Chapter was at older fluff's size it wouldnt be that empty. Hell if 200 Marines is One-fifth of the Chapter strength, the Chapter is only One thousand strong.
Well, if they left it that watertight, that is a pity. It is a rather unfortunate retcon, as the large, distributed size, like a mini-Legion, was part of what made the Black Templars interesting. It was another sign showing that in many ways they were following more in the spirit of the old Imperial Fists Legion than the Imperial Fists Chapter itself. Which makes sense- as the chief face of the Imperial Fists successors, the IF Chapter would need to be especially Codex-compliant to dissuade accusations of heresy, whereas the successors could get away with more deviancy.
The only remaining explanation would be that Helbrecht thought the Inquisition is taping his conversations
Space Marines sometimes have to dispatch squads to patrol, garrison, infiltration duties that take them away from their Chapter. They also die in battle, which leave their position vacant. However, a Company will be reluctant to go to war without all 10 squads accounted for and they can't wait a year or two for the Scouts to fully grow and replenish their ranks. Which means each Chapter must have Space Marine reserves that can be called upon to join a company or take part in other less grandeur duties like mentioned above.
Is this not exactly the difference between battle companies and reserve companies?
For all those saying 1000 marines is unrealistic, you are of course forgetting that each marine is worth a million xenos scum. That means one chapter can fight off a billion xenos on their own! My commissar told me so.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: For all those saying 1000 marines is unrealistic, you are of course forgetting that each marine is worth a million xenos scum. That means one chapter can fight off a billion xenos on their own! My commissar told me so.
Its actually true, not a billion lol but chapters rarely even use their full 1000, or even whole companies either. Squads of marines are sent out over the galaxy to help reinforce Imperial armies. Other factions may not like how Mary Sue they are, but they are, the game makes them look like any other unit, but lore-wise they are one man armies in a lot of cases.
My headcannon is x10. 1000 marines per chapter should be 10,000, 100 per company becomes 1000, a fluff of 5 marines holding off hundreds to orks was actually 50, etc. It makes a lot of things fall into sensible range quite nicely.
This is what I do to, it makes much more sense with every codex.
Bingo. My headcanon has always been that the Emperor aimed to roughly assemble each legion at a million. 20 million legionnaires leading an Imperial Army of billions to conquer the galaxy; that was his original goalpost. Obviously, that figure was just a general baseline, 2 legions didn't last very long, leaving 18. And the hard numbers fluctuated from legion to legion, particularly as the GC wore on and the Heresy kicked off, etc. When the legions were split it was into chapters of 10,000, battalions of 1,000, companies of 100, etc. Again just rough numbers. Command, scouts/trainees, support, navy, etc are all supplementary to that rounded figure, not apart of it - the rounded figure is for full, active marines/battlebrothers. They're all supported by a sizable force of serfs to help keep them maintained, serviceable and field operational, etc.
If you think these numbers sound big they're really, really not. They're still incredibly, laughably small for galactic scale warring, which is why 9/10 times Marines will fight in tandem with support from Imperial Navy, Guard, Mechanicus, local PDF, etc in the hundreds of thousands and millions - acting as the tiny adamantium studs/spikes on the vast flat surface of the Imperial warhammer.
I always assumed that the command staff/specialists were pulled from the reserve companies, and that their "slot" was held there. In that case, I'd say it is more than likely that the number is close to correct. But I'm a Crimson Fists player, we have nowhere NEAR 1,000 in our Chapter.
Just Tony wrote: I always assumed that the command staff/specialists were pulled from the reserve companies, and that their "slot" was held there. In that case, I'd say it is more than likely that the number is close to correct. But I'm a Crimson Fists player, we have nowhere NEAR 1,000 in our Chapter.
Yea I view it as a chapter can be no more than 1000 “standard” marines, this would be tacticals, devastators, and assault marines (and the new Primaris stuff now). Vehicle crews and command elements wouldn’t be included in the 1000.
Edit: My problem with only having 1000 marines per chapter is that the lore tells us how a single company, not even a chapter, took over a planet, idk how 100 people are capable of capturing an entire planet, yea I know they are super soldiers, but that is just very hard to believe.
NinthMusketeer wrote: My headcannon is x10. 1000 marines per chapter should be 10,000, 100 per company becomes 1000, a fluff of 5 marines holding off hundreds to orks was actually 50, etc. It makes a lot of things fall into sensible range quite nicely.
It's not supposed to be sensible - it's supposed to be fantasy. Plus - sensibly - It's almost like brainless troll tpye creatures trying to charge you with hand to hand weapons get wipped against a small force with rapid fire grenade launchers and thick plate armor.
A Salamanders Company is at least 120 Marines strong. But I think they are supposed to have fewer Battle Companies overall so it evens out. I'd be of the opinion that a Chapter's fighting strength is ideally 1000 but they have about twice that on garrison duty, recovering from wounds etc etc.
From everything in the fluff most chapters arent all chilling at the fortress monestary together taking roll call every morning and counting off marines to make sure there are only 1,000 present. They are broken up on multiple ships patrolling the galaxy purging Xenos and burning heretics. If one of those battle barges has 200 marines in a company rather than 100 no one in the Imperium is going to find out. Unless there is some sort of Ordos Auditus that calls every chapter master to do roll call and go over the chapters P&L for the last quarter.
It wouldn’t be the most deceitful things the Astartes ever did to lie about sticking to 1,000 Marines when they are WAY bigger. I mean there was that thing they did one time where half of them betrayed the Emperor and sold their souls to demons. But as long as the high lords and the inquisition don’t find out I could see it being an open secret among the chapters that it’s a soft 1,000 limit.
The only issue with deliberately oversizing is that if you are caught, then the punishment is Excommunicatis Traitoris and being put to the sword by your fellow Astartes. Unless you have enough political clout to avoid it...
I always headcanon'd it to be each chapter having 1000 deployable 'basic' marines. So 1000 marines capable of wielding a bolter, manning a predator, firing a lascannon, etc. Not including dreadnoughts, command units or marines on recouperation/injured marines.
I always assumed it was 1000 core soldiers. 100 squads of 10 in 10 companies. Plus officers, auxilliaries, support, vehicle operators, etc. But the core fighting force is 100 squads.
Edit: those numbers being for the chapters that closely follow the codex that is.
Arcanis161 wrote: I think a Battle Barge ought to have enough room to carry 10000 Marines, right? Engineers/Architects out there, am I correct in that?
With crews in the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands for battleship class vessels, yes, in theory.
But there's a difference between carrying 10,000 dudes (which any old 1-hit pilgrim transport in BFG could do) and carrying 300 instantly battle-ready marines, plus their interface craft (drop pods + storm ravens + thunderhawks + thunderhawk transports/landing craft to bring the tanks down) plus a wide selection of tanks and APCs, plus prefabricated fortifications, plus supplies to fight several months of resource-hungry battles, plus training grounds to fight anything up to and including company-scale practice engagements en route, plus serfs and armoury assets to maintain everything.
And all without using up any of the ship's fighting capability so it's still got armour, shields and guns comparable to a navy warship of the same size...
Arcanis161 wrote: I think a Battle Barge ought to have enough room to carry 10000 Marines, right? Engineers/Architects out there, am I correct in that?
With crews in the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands for battleship class vessels, yes, in theory.
But there's a difference between carrying 10,000 dudes (which any old 1-hit pilgrim transport in BFG could do) and carrying 300 instantly battle-ready marines, plus their interface craft (drop pods + storm ravens + thunderhawks + thunderhawk transports/landing craft to bring the tanks down) plus a wide selection of tanks and APCs, plus prefabricated fortifications, plus supplies to fight several months of resource-hungry battles, plus training grounds to fight anything up to and including company-scale practice engagements en route, plus serfs and armoury assets to maintain everything.
And all without using up any of the ship's fighting capability so it's still got armour, shields and guns comparable to a navy warship of the same size...
I agree, and there is evidence for it.
In the old BFG rules, using a non-Space Marine ship equipped for Thunderhawk operations halved the number of available bays. So an Emperor-class battleship, if it was refitted for Marine operations, would only be able to deploy 2 squadrons of Thunderhawks per flank, rather than 4 squadrons of Imperial Navy craft.
So yes, clearly Marine operations take an unusually high level of space and resources. I imagine an enormous amount of spare munitions, parts, and gear are needed to keep a unit of Marines at constant combat readiness with constant sorties, which they need to be to take advantages of their unique strengths. Everytime a piece of power armour is damaged, or a Rhino blown up, or a load of bolt-rounds used up, they have to be able to get the Marine combat-effective again in minimal time. The Marine should be the most limited resource of the Chapter, other than void craft.
A battlebarge is supposed to transport around 300 battle-ready Marines. 41st millennium Marines have an unparalled level of strategic mobility, and a huge variety of deployment options. I would think the same battlebarge would carry a larger number of battle-ready Great Crusade Marines, because they tended to have less strategic mobility than an equivallent Codex Astartes force, so less space would be devoted to a variety of deployment options for the entire complement. A battlebarge could probably also carry a number of Marines who cannot be deployed in an initial planetstrike, but must be deployed in subsequent waves.
Big G himself said the Codex was a guide, even the Codex itself said it was a guide - They put the warnings at the back of the book - he also took the time to point out that anyone who treated it as law was an idiot.
I'm glad Wolfsbane FINALLY addressed the Space Wolves post Heresy, "yes they only split twice but they where almost completely annialated zerg rushing horus so they're pretty small"
Wolfsbane was also a pretty good story that did a solid job of filling in a lot of blanks to finally explain the wolves absence at Terra and gave Russ a great moment even if the ending was obvious cause of canon.
The mutts were sitting at about 1300 before Magnus.
War-zone Fenris boosted them by about a hundred Wulfen then dropped them by a about two hundred nameless marines due to casualties and the Wolf Lord of the Ironwolves.
Cadia dropped them by the entirety of the Firehowlers to a Suicide mission that turned out to be irrelevant, the second Wolf Lord of the Ironwolves in as many campaigns and about half of Ragnar Blackmane’s Great Company.
Wolves are sitting at about 1050.
Guilliman buffed most chapters by 2000 Primaris Marines but the Wolves only got 1000, Guilliman assigned 1000 SW Primaris as guardians of something on Terra and called them the Wolf Spear.
Wolves sitting at about 1150.
Njal Stormcaller visits Prospero and brings back the 13th company minus its Wulfen who are already on Fenris.
Wolves sitting at about 2050 marines and...um...variants.
The way that a 1000 strong Marine army conquers a planet is shown in the venerable Space Marine, by Iain Watson. It goes in with Guard support, who neutralise the PDF. Then the Marines go full tilt on the seat of planetary governance and annihilate it.
Install a new governor, job done - planet is back in the Imperium.
Remember, most Imperial actions are against other human worlds, and most human worlds are to an extent feudal. Take over at the top and tell the serfs that the tribute now goes offworld. The majority of citizens will never know the difference, and may in many cases not realise that they've ever left the Imperium during a rebellion.
In that situation where the scope of operation is limited, 1000 marines is a ferocious force.
Pacifying an entire planetary population of heretics or wiping out a whole Xenos world... yeah. A Marine chapter is useless for that.
Arcanis161 wrote: I think a Battle Barge ought to have enough room to carry 10000 Marines, right? Engineers/Architects out there, am I correct in that?
With crews in the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands for battleship class vessels, yes, in theory.
But there's a difference between carrying 10,000 dudes (which any old 1-hit pilgrim transport in BFG could do) and carrying 300 instantly battle-ready marines, plus their interface craft (drop pods + storm ravens + thunderhawks + thunderhawk transports/landing craft to bring the tanks down) plus a wide selection of tanks and APCs, plus prefabricated fortifications, plus supplies to fight several months of resource-hungry battles, plus training grounds to fight anything up to and including company-scale practice engagements en route, plus serfs and armoury assets to maintain everything.
And all without using up any of the ship's fighting capability so it's still got armour, shields and guns comparable to a navy warship of the same size...
It's a little like an aircraft carrier, and saying the fighting strength of an aircraft carrier is limited to the seal teams on board.
Dakka Wolf wrote: The mutts were sitting at about 1300 before Magnus.
War-zone Fenris boosted them by about a hundred Wulfen then dropped them by a about two hundred nameless marines due to casualties and the Wolf Lord of the Ironwolves.
Cadia dropped them by the entirety of the Firehowlers to a Suicide mission that turned out to be irrelevant, the second Wolf Lord of the Ironwolves in as many campaigns and about half of Ragnar Blackmane’s Great Company.
Wolves are sitting at about 1050.
Guilliman buffed most chapters by 2000 Primaris Marines but the Wolves only got 1000, Guilliman assigned 1000 SW Primaris as guardians of something on Terra and called them the Wolf Spear.
Wolves sitting at about 1150.
Njal Stormcaller visits Prospero and brings back the 13th company minus its Wulfen who are already on Fenris.
Wolves sitting at about 2050 marines and...um...variants.
I think more than 200 wolves died during Magnus's invasion. Not only did the wolves suffer heavy casualties but Magnus ravaged their recruitment stock. SW's would be about half strength at Cadia, After Cadia they should be near to ruin.
I know its hard to accept this, marines don't lose, amirite? Sorry for the snark.
Dakka Wolf wrote: The mutts were sitting at about 1300 before Magnus.
War-zone Fenris boosted them by about a hundred Wulfen then dropped them by a about two hundred nameless marines due to casualties and the Wolf Lord of the Ironwolves.
Cadia dropped them by the entirety of the Firehowlers to a Suicide mission that turned out to be irrelevant, the second Wolf Lord of the Ironwolves in as many campaigns and about half of Ragnar Blackmane’s Great Company.
Wolves are sitting at about 1050.
Guilliman buffed most chapters by 2000 Primaris Marines but the Wolves only got 1000, Guilliman assigned 1000 SW Primaris as guardians of something on Terra and called them the Wolf Spear.
Wolves sitting at about 1150.
Njal Stormcaller visits Prospero and brings back the 13th company minus its Wulfen who are already on Fenris.
Wolves sitting at about 2050 marines and...um...variants.
I think more than 200 wolves died during Magnus's invasion. Not only did the wolves suffer heavy casualties but Magnus ravaged their recruitment stock. SW's would be about half strength at Cadia, After Cadia they should be near to ruin.
I know its hard to accept this, marines don't lose, amirite? Sorry for the snark.
Meh, snark is my second language.
I know Fenris copped more abuse from the Grey Knights than the demons and Thousand Sons but I’m pretty sure the bigger issue for the Space Wolves was the number of them Wulfen out due to proximity to the Wulfen than actual casualties - if they came close to ruin it would have been on Cadia where they lost at least one and a half Great Companies, possibly more.
The mary sue role of the marines is overstated. GW writers know that the numbers of marines means that they are pitiful for anything that isn't a strike mission.
Last time 20.000 marines tried a defensive missions against xenos they didn't last more than a few days, even if they were barricated inside one of the most powerful fortress of the Imperium with the supplies of 25 chapters combined.
Also, marine voidcrafts are manned by one marine, sometimes 2. All the other marines on board are there for boarding missions.
Ratius wrote: Latest SW codex says they have recruited "significant" numbers of Primaris however which likely balances out their numbers again.
How? Fenris is in tatters, I know the Primaris Marines are far more stable but the Wolves only got half the amount the other first founding chapters got and their only recruitment planet is low on population.
Ratius wrote: Latest SW codex says they have recruited "significant" numbers of Primaris however which likely balances out their numbers again.
How? Fenris is in tatters, I know the Primaris Marines are far more stable but the Wolves only got half the amount the other first founding chapters got and their only recruitment planet is low on population.
SW are essentially a dead legion now. They won't be able to recruit enough to replace their higher than average losses (due to the Blood Claw > Grey Hunter pathway) and their only planet probably won't make it back to population growth naturally. Yes, they have Primaris, but they aren't Fenrisians and never will be.
Ratius wrote: Latest SW codex says they have recruited "significant" numbers of Primaris however which likely balances out their numbers again.
How? Fenris is in tatters, I know the Primaris Marines are far more stable but the Wolves only got half the amount the other first founding chapters got and their only recruitment planet is low on population.
SW are essentially a dead legion now. They won't be able to recruit enough to replace their higher than average losses (due to the Blood Claw > Grey Hunter pathway) and their only planet probably won't make it back to population growth naturally. Yes, they have Primaris, but they aren't Fenrisians and never will be.
So you've got the origins of the Death Guard brewing in a loyalist chapter once again? Excellent.
Ratius wrote: Latest SW codex says they have recruited "significant" numbers of Primaris however which likely balances out their numbers again.
How? Fenris is in tatters, I know the Primaris Marines are far more stable but the Wolves only got half the amount the other first founding chapters got and their only recruitment planet is low on population.
SW are essentially a dead legion now. They won't be able to recruit enough to replace their higher than average losses (due to the Blood Claw > Grey Hunter pathway) and their only planet probably won't make it back to population growth naturally. Yes, they have Primaris, but they aren't Fenrisians and never will be.
keep in mind a population can rebound fairly quickly after a century or two.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind a population can rebound fairly quickly after a century or two.
The Inquisition wiped out almost ALL of the Fenrisian population. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Fenrisian menials surviving on Void Ships than survived on the planet.
If you want to have literally 1000 marines per chapter whilst still have them being able to do significant stuff then I figure that 1000 should not count scouts. Secondly, assume that scouts actually are the main fighting force whilst the marines are just the elite who the best scouts graduate to. So a chapter might be 10,000 scouts and a 1,000 marines. Of course, most 'scouts' would not actually be involved in scouting. Rather, most scouts deploy as conventional military forces meanwhile a small number of scouts act as traditionally understood scouts for the marines. This way, you have a divisions worth of front line troops backed up by 1,000 of galaxy's best special ops forces.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind a population can rebound fairly quickly after a century or two.
The Inquisition wiped out almost ALL of the Fenrisian population. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Fenrisian menials surviving on Void Ships than survived on the planet.
There is so much potential for the Wolves to ‘escape’ Fenris with the Primaris Marines and fluff wise with the return of the 13th company given that they’re Heresy era which means some of them might be Terran with no ties between their Space Wolf geneseed and Fenrisian bloodlines.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind a population can rebound fairly quickly after a century or two.
The Inquisition wiped out almost ALL of the Fenrisian population. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Fenrisian menials surviving on Void Ships than survived on the planet.
There is so much potential for the Wolves to ‘escape’ Fenris with the Primaris Marines and fluff wise with the return of the 13th company given that they’re Heresy era which means some of them might be Terran with no ties between their Space Wolf geneseed and Fenrisian bloodlines.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind a population can rebound fairly quickly after a century or two.
The Inquisition wiped out almost ALL of the Fenrisian population. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Fenrisian menials surviving on Void Ships than survived on the planet.
There is so much potential for the Wolves to ‘escape’ Fenris with the Primaris Marines and fluff wise with the return of the 13th company given that they’re Heresy era which means some of them might be Terran with no ties between their Space Wolf geneseed and Fenrisian bloodlines.
At that point are they still even Space Wolves?
Depends on how they choose to write it, If they turn the Terrans into something of a feeder chapter then just a rocky relationship like any other successor chapter. If they choose to depart Fenris entirely...well, “There are no wolves on Fenris”.
Of note - Russ actually wanted successor chapters, if the Wolf Brothers came before him shooting down the rest of the Codex Astartes it actually gives Guiliman legit reason for leaving him alone where he attacked Dorn for rejecting it, the Wolves would have numbered in the hundreds at that point anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: for whats it's worth codex space wolves pretty much ignores the purge of fenris, so.... apparently it's not hurting them?
Never liked Codex fluff for the Wolves, why start for Codex fluff that was more than half a year out of date before it was even released?
and truthfully I suspect the IoM was, on a whole, more concerned with the legions being split, then the codex itself. the codex was more a "... and here's how you can orginize.." then anything
NinthMusketeer wrote: We need primaris wulfen. That would solve everything. Just dab some sister blood on them first.
What they need is a unit of Bloodskulls carrying the dreaded Grimdark Deathblooder. However, that would probably push the Aeaeaeaeaeaeaeaeldar release back a touch...
I always assumed that the '1000 Marines' was the number of combat ready bodies readily fielded. And that there would be a significant number of others, for vehicle crews, auxiliaries and minor characters, and such alongside that. 1000 Battle Brothers, plus all their accompanying support - which are also space marines.
Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Most of those killed in a standard 40k game probably survived the battle though- removed models just count as combat ineffective. SO in the case of Marines, that could mean Marines that have gone into the protective comas or had 4 limbs blown off or whatever, or tanks that have been disabled but are still repairable if recovered.
Further to this, most battle would not be "equal points". Space Marines in particular generally dictate the terms of the battle, so you would be more likely to see 3000pts of Space Marines crushing 1000 points of heretic cultists, or 1500pts destroying a 500pt picket. That reduces the casualties massively. Any battle where the sides are equal is a gamble, and therefore either desperate or a mistake for one or both sides.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
space Marines are definatly hurt by insufficant granularity. with guardsmen at 3s and marines at 4s. there's simply no place on the table top for the legions of things that rightly should be "tougher/stronger then a guard, but weaker then a space marine" hence you get bizzare stuff like well catachans.
Further to this, most battle would not be "equal points". Space Marines in particular generally dictate the terms of the battle, so you would be more likely to see 3000pts of Space Marines crushing 1000 points of heretic cultists, or 1500pts destroying a 500pt picket. That reduces the casualties massively. Any battle where the sides are equal is a gamble, and therefore either desperate or a mistake for one or both sides.
Indeed, few (if any) modern armies would even contemplate an attack on an enemy force of equal strength to theirs; unless they had some other massively significant advantage (or bad intel and didn't know the enemy had similar strength). The game has to have equal armies (for the most part), otherwise it would not be much fun for at least one player - and really doesn't represent how most armies would actually function. (except Orks, who would clearly attack anything, regardless of the relative strengths, as the fight is more important than winning)
"tyranids replace any casualty on a 2+ every turn, dark eldar require you to set up facing the wrong way, and eldar allows you to play the game three times and decide which result to accept..."
One thing I do like about Battlefleet Gothic is the way Necrons work in that it is, deliberately, an 'unfair' game and yet remains balanced - 1500 points of necrons will kick the ass of 1500 points of Imperial Navy in 'ships destroyed'. However they will give a fair fight in victory points because every necron ship shot down gives 2x or even 3x its points cost in victory points.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
Not to mention how big the table would need to be to represent even a small skirmish accurately, let alone a large scale battle or indeed an entire campaign!
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
My general barometer is the Dorn quote: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops".
In other words, a Space Marine company is approximately equivalent to ten human companies. That isn't the same as one Space Marine being equivalent to ten humans- the equipment of the company is a huge force multiplier. Of course, once you add in fleet assets, a hundred Marines far outstrips a thousand humans in capability.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
I don't know what books you're reading then. Marines bulldoze through thousands to millions of enemies in the novels, with just a couple hundred being sufficient to act as the turning point in an offensive or defensive measure. Such as in Brothers of the Snake where one lone marine stuck behind in Ork territory for years kills hordes of them, or when the Chapter itself bulldozes its way through thousands of Dark Eldar, or in the latest Blood Angel book where somewheres around 20k to 10k Blood Angels hold out against the majority of the Hive Fleet Leviathan (so numerous that the ships literally blotted out the sky and pouring billions of tyrnaids on the defenses) . Just in general, Astartes, Eldar, Custodes, Daemons, and Nobz are completely and utterly superior to guard/tyranid light infantry/boyz/etc to the point that the light infantry might as well not even bother fighting unless they have overwhelming numbers or heavy armor support and catch them out in the open. Although in the case of the Custodes even that shouldn't work on them considering their Terminators can shrug off getting shot by hypersonic quake shells fired out of an aquila macrocannon.
An accurate tabletop game (with fair balance) would be pitting a demicompany of marines with vehicular support against hundreds of guardsmen, or just one or two units of custodes against the same force, give-or-take with other armies such as Eldar or elite Ork forces. Obviously that's not really functional in terms of scale, so the answer would be to drop the model count of the elite forces proportionally... but that would negatively impact sales and I can hear the GW accountants hissing at such a thought.
"tyranids replace any casualty on a 2+ every turn, dark eldar require you to set up facing the wrong way, and eldar allows you to play the game three times and decide which result to accept..."
One thing I do like about Battlefleet Gothic is the way Necrons work in that it is, deliberately, an 'unfair' game and yet remains balanced - 1500 points of necrons will kick the ass of 1500 points of Imperial Navy in 'ships destroyed'. However they will give a fair fight in victory points because every necron ship shot down gives 2x or even 3x its points cost in victory points.
the problem with that is it was apparently not very fun. It reminds of playing a game with an older brother as a little kid, he utterly kicks your ass, but to keep you intreasted invents a reason why "you really Won that!"
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
My general barometer is the Dorn quote: "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops".
In other words, a Space Marine company is approximately equivalent to ten human companies. That isn't the same as one Space Marine being equivalent to ten humans- the equipment of the company is a huge force multiplier. Of course, once you add in fleet assets, a hundred Marines far outstrips a thousand humans in capability.
Well said, yes I tend to agree with that. It's not about a 10 v 1 shootout, it's about what they can bring to the strategic sphere.
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
Except if you were to play an accurate campaign, all Space Marines would be toughness 6 while Custodes would be toughness 7 or even 8 and a single squad of space marines with a lascannon would mop up guardsmen or orks without much trouble. The tabletop is a horrible example to use for anything given that it kneecaps numerous factions so guard, ork, and nid players don't need to buy an absolutely obscene amount of models/people buy so little eldar and space marines that GW's sales are hurt.
I'm not even sure that's true. Most of the battles I've read in Black Library have involved asymmetric fighting or situations in which tabletop statistics can bear out to some degree or another. Marines can mop up tons of Guardsmen if the Guardsmen can't bring their numbers to bear. Especially with character support (which is usually the case in BL, afaik). I haven't read that much BL though, so I'd be interested to know if others can bring up examples.
I don't know what books you're reading then. Marines bulldoze through thousands to millions of enemies in the novels, with just a couple hundred being sufficient to act as the turning point in an offensive or defensive measure. Such as in Brothers of the Snake where one lone marine stuck behind in Ork territory for years kills hordes of them, or when the Chapter itself bulldozes its way through thousands of Dark Eldar, or in the latest Blood Angel book where somewheres around 20k to 10k Blood Angels hold out against the majority of the Hive Fleet Leviathan (so numerous that the ships literally blotted out the sky and pouring billions of tyrnaids on the defenses) . Just in general, Astartes, Eldar, Custodes, Daemons, and Nobz are completely and utterly superior to guard/tyranid light infantry/boyz/etc to the point that the light infantry might as well not even bother fighting unless they have overwhelming numbers or heavy armor support and catch them out in the open. Although in the case of the Custodes even that shouldn't work on them considering their Terminators can shrug off getting shot by hypersonic quake shells fired out of an aquila macrocannon.
An accurate tabletop game (with fair balance) would be pitting a demicompany of marines with vehicular support against hundreds of guardsmen, or just one or two units of custodes against the same force, give-or-take with other armies such as Eldar or elite Ork forces. Obviously that's not really functional in terms of scale, so the answer would be to drop the model count of the elite forces proportionally... but that would negatively impact sales and I can hear the GW accountants hissing at such a thought.
Right, well... the devils in the details. And you could actually play a demi company with vehicle support vs. Hundreds of guardsmen, and the Space Marines could come out of that reasonably well. A lot is going to depend on distribution of force over terrain and yada yada yada. I mean, I know the novels gloss over a lot of it, and a lot of it is for dramatic effect. But on the other hand, a single boarding squad of veterans really could clear room after room of mooks without any serious casualties. Plus things like a little fire support will go a long way towards influencing outcomes. If the idea is that the marines are well coordinated and the enemy is not, and there's room to maneuver and materiel assets backing them up, then their game stats which seem pretty meagre in a pitched battle on the tabletop can still get at least some of the outcomes you're talking about.
"tyranids replace any casualty on a 2+ every turn, dark eldar require you to set up facing the wrong way, and eldar allows you to play the game three times and decide which result to accept..."
One thing I do like about Battlefleet Gothic is the way Necrons work in that it is, deliberately, an 'unfair' game and yet remains balanced - 1500 points of necrons will kick the ass of 1500 points of Imperial Navy in 'ships destroyed'. However they will give a fair fight in victory points because every necron ship shot down gives 2x or even 3x its points cost in victory points.
the problem with that is it was apparently not very fun. It reminds of playing a game with an older brother as a little kid, he utterly kicks your ass, but to keep you intreasted invents a reason why "you really Won that!"
I've played BFG with and against necrons a lot and I can assure you it is good fun.
It's no different to any mission objective - you know what you need to do to win going in and can realistically achieve it (Imperial navy can 'win' in a straight damage race but it's hard to do but in victory points for victory points it's a fair fight and gives a very "charge of the light brigade" feel). The problem with battlefleet gothic is that people always wanted to set up 1500 points of stuff on opposite sides of the board and play "first one to die loses" (aka 'settling it the old navy way'), and some races' fleets ability to dictate the scenario (orks) or the way victory points work (necrons) was 'baked in' to their points costs.
People often played it once or twice without a scenario - but also without using the Chaos and Imperial Navy fleets (which were balanced against one another in a vacuum) - and announced "orks suck" or "necrons are broken" without caring they were playing without a quarter of the fleet's rules...
Niiai wrote: Just play some regular games of warhammer over some form of campain. By the numbers alone by the end of the campain you have effectivly wiped out the chapter. And that is only counting the games you actually play. Supposebly a lot more is happening in the backround of the campain. Scouting, smalling skirmishes, etc.
1000 SM are indeed very small. And then look to armies that do not have several companies etc. Lamenters, Space wolves. These should have been wiped out a long time ago if you follow the backround information.
You're assuming that every casualty is a death (many will not be, especially for marines), that everyone will fight on largely regardless of casualties (the 40K morale system really doesn't work) and you're always fighting equal forces against each other which is something they would actually be avoiding doing as much as possible - the general rule is that you need a 3:1 advantage in order to minimise casualties and marines have the mobility to be concentrating their forces on fights they can win.
This is the Blood Angels, the Ultramarines had similar numbers. Most Chapters have a smaller Honour guard, but I suspect the other numbers are broadly similar.
