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My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 21:35:32


Post by: Onething123456


My talk with ADB on Reddit shows him saying we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. So I do not know why people keep saying the Emperor might be DAOT tech. And I am not going to be hostile in this thread, I am just saying that the Emperor is "safely" not DAOT tech going by my talk with ADB on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 21:40:54


Post by: Grimskul


The reason why some people say the Emperor might be DAOT tech is because they are speculating, they may not have foundational basis for it in the fluff given that the Empy's origins are inherently shrouded in mystery, but that's part of the fun in discussing it on the background session, which this thread should also be in.

No offense, but you're really hung up on your perception of the Emperor (to the detriment of basically not discussing with others) and I don't think this is a good place to air your dirty laundry regarding how you can't seem to reconcile different viewpoints on him. The links you've provided are not definitive nor are they relevant to the Emperor's origins honestly. Why are you trying to justify your POV by making this thread?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 21:44:27


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
The reason why some people say the Emperor might be DAOT tech is because they are speculating, they may not have foundational basis for it in the fluff given that the Empy's origins are inherently shrouded in mystery, but that's part of the fun in discussing it on the background session, which this thread should also be in.

No offense, but you're really hung up on your perception of the Emperor (to the detriment of basically not discussing with others) and I don't think this is a good place to air your dirty laundry regarding how you can't seem to reconcile different viewpoints on him. The links you've provided are not definitive nor are they relevant to the Emperor's origins honestly. Why are you trying to justify your POV by making this thread?




I actually forgot about my talk with ADB. When I remembered it, I decieded to post it.



Grimskul, have a nice day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my talk with ADB safely confirms he is not DAOT tech.



The Emperor's shaman origin is from 1st Edition Rogue Trader.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:06:15


Post by: JNAProductions


Why did you post the same link twice?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:16:10


Post by: jeffersonian000


What is DAOT tech?

SJ


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:20:04


Post by: Onething123456


 JNAProductions wrote:
Why did you post the same link twice?




Must have bee an error.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What is DAOT tech?

SJ




Dark Age of technology.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:23:01


Post by: Grimskul


 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What is DAOT tech?

SJ


The premise that onething is fighting against is the possibility that the Emperor was a creation (bio-tech or otherwise) of the Dark Age of Technology (ergo DAOT) hence why he has said powers and his lack of outright intervention during many dark periods of mankind's history. Doesn't really match up with what we do generally know of him, but OP is vehement against any talk about it, hence his reddit link and this thread, which I personally find pointless.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:30:04


Post by: Excommunicatus


Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:43:17


Post by: Onething123456


Grimskul, thats not true. The Emperor, as the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says, intervened many times during human history under many different guises. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he saw no need to become the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:47:37


Post by: NoiseMarine with Tinnitus


I think this whole DAoT guff comes from an off hand comment in Master of Mankind between Valdor IIRC and a Terran lord who is knicking water.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:52:18


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What is DAOT tech?

SJ


The premise that onething is fighting against is the possibility that the Emperor was a creation (bio-tech or otherwise) of the Dark Age of Technology (ergo DAOT) hence why he has said powers and his lack of outright intervention during many dark periods of mankind's history. Doesn't really match up with what we do generally know of him, but OP is vehement against any talk about it, hence his reddit link and this thread, which I personally find pointless.





I just debunked that. The book with the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader explains why he "did not intervene (which is bs since he technically DID intervene, just not as the Emperor)." The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he became various figures in times of trouble.




http://imgur.com/dImnK6j



The same book says the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife.



He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.


And we have the quote from Mark of Calth.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:56:07


Post by: Grimskul


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What is DAOT tech?

SJ


The premise that onething is fighting against is the possibility that the Emperor was a creation (bio-tech or otherwise) of the Dark Age of Technology (ergo DAOT) hence why he has said powers and his lack of outright intervention during many dark periods of mankind's history. Doesn't really match up with what we do generally know of him, but OP is vehement against any talk about it, hence his reddit link and this thread, which I personally find pointless.





I just debunked that. The book with the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader explains why he "did not intervene (which is bs since he technically DID intervene, just not as the Emperor)." The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he became various types of figures in times of trouble.




http://imgur.com/dImnK6j



The same book says the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife.



He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.


And we have the lovely quote from Mark of Calth.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


I think you misread what I wrote. I don't support the idea of him being DAOT tech, I was saying that you're going really overboard in trying to say there's absolutely no possibility of it being true, when we largely don't know much about the Emperor's origins.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 22:56:26


Post by: Onething123456


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.





Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind. Basically word of God. Are we to say there is a canon in 40k despite several sources and links from the authors showing there is no canon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What is DAOT tech?

SJ


The premise that onething is fighting against is the possibility that the Emperor was a creation (bio-tech or otherwise) of the Dark Age of Technology (ergo DAOT) hence why he has said powers and his lack of outright intervention during many dark periods of mankind's history. Doesn't really match up with what we do generally know of him, but OP is vehement against any talk about it, hence his reddit link and this thread, which I personally find pointless.





I just debunked that. The book with the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader explains why he "did not intervene (which is bs since he technically DID intervene, just not as the Emperor)." The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he became various types of figures in times of trouble.




http://imgur.com/dImnK6j



The same book says the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife.



He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.


And we have the lovely quote from Mark of Calth.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


I think you misread what I wrote. I don't support the idea of him being DAOT tech, I was saying that you're going really overboard in trying to say there's absolutely no possibility of it being true, when we largely don't know much about the Emperor's origins.




I'm not saying its completely impossible. But we can be reasonably sure he is not from the DAOT, since ADB said we can safely say that.



Besides, there is no canon 40k. So you are free to interpret the setting however you want.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:03:06


Post by: Grimskul


Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.





Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind. Basically word of God. Are we to say there is a canon in 40k despite several sources and links from the authors showing there is no canon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What is DAOT tech?

SJ


The premise that onething is fighting against is the possibility that the Emperor was a creation (bio-tech or otherwise) of the Dark Age of Technology (ergo DAOT) hence why he has said powers and his lack of outright intervention during many dark periods of mankind's history. Doesn't really match up with what we do generally know of him, but OP is vehement against any talk about it, hence his reddit link and this thread, which I personally find pointless.





I just debunked that. The book with the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader explains why he "did not intervene (which is bs since he technically DID intervene, just not as the Emperor)." The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he became various types of figures in times of trouble.




http://imgur.com/dImnK6j



The same book says the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife.



He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.


And we have the lovely quote from Mark of Calth.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


I think you misread what I wrote. I don't support the idea of him being DAOT tech, I was saying that you're going really overboard in trying to say there's absolutely no possibility of it being true, when we largely don't know much about the Emperor's origins.




I'm not saying its completely impossible. But we can be reasonably sure he is not from the DAOT, since ADB said we can safely say that.



Besides, there is no canon 40k. So you are free to interpret the setting however you want.


I'm not a supporter of the idea that there is no canon in 40K, but didn't you just contradict yourself? If there's no canon in 40K, why should I take your reddit post with ADB as "Word of God" as if it has any value?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:06:05


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.





Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind. Basically word of God. Are we to say there is a canon in 40k despite several sources and links from the authors showing there is no canon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What is DAOT tech?

SJ


The premise that onething is fighting against is the possibility that the Emperor was a creation (bio-tech or otherwise) of the Dark Age of Technology (ergo DAOT) hence why he has said powers and his lack of outright intervention during many dark periods of mankind's history. Doesn't really match up with what we do generally know of him, but OP is vehement against any talk about it, hence his reddit link and this thread, which I personally find pointless.





I just debunked that. The book with the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader explains why he "did not intervene (which is bs since he technically DID intervene, just not as the Emperor)." The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he became various types of figures in times of trouble.




http://imgur.com/dImnK6j



The same book says the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife.



He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.


And we have the lovely quote from Mark of Calth.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


I think you misread what I wrote. I don't support the idea of him being DAOT tech, I was saying that you're going really overboard in trying to say there's absolutely no possibility of it being true, when we largely don't know much about the Emperor's origins.




I'm not saying its completely impossible. But we can be reasonably sure he is not from the DAOT, since ADB said we can safely say that.



Besides, there is no canon 40k. So you are free to interpret the setting however you want.


I'm not a supporter of the idea that there is no canon in 40K, but didn't you just contradict yourself? If there's no canon in 40K, why should I take your reddit post with ADB as "Word of God" as if it has any value?







I should clarify that going by the books, all of what I said is true. But going by "no canon", you are free to interpret the setting however you want. I have said this before.





My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:10:42


Post by: Orlanth


According to old canon the Emperor was born in 8000 BC in Anatolia, Turkey. A holy child conceived by the mass ritual suicide of the shamen of antiquity; who after analysing their portents gave their lives to create a superbeing able to protect humanity from the growing threat of things from the warp.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:16:24


Post by: Onething123456


 Orlanth wrote:
According to old canon the Emperor was born in 8000 BC in Anatolia, Turkey. A holy child conceived by the mass ritual suicide of the shamen of antiquity; who after analysing their portents gave their lives to create a superbeing able to protect humanity from the growing threat of things from the warp.



Its not just old lore, its from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I just linked the book, and its incompatible with modern lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.



http://imgur.com/dImnK6j


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Realm-of-Chaos-the-Lost-and-the-Damned-HB-Warhammer-40kRPG-SOTDL-WFRP-OSR-/202463265789


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:22:59


Post by: catbarf


Onething123456 wrote:
Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind.


There's a post I remember reading on Reddit, which I'm sure I could find given enough time, written by ADB himself, where he explained that BL has always played fast and loose with canon. What one author created might be downplayed or outright ignored by other authors, or retconned in various ways. The authors write what they want to write, and it's fans far more than the authors themselves who nitpick these things.

So, per ADB's own words, his interpretation of the setting isn't gospel and can (and would) change the instant the majority of the rest of the BL team disagrees with him, and is more 'legend' than statements of fact.

It's a made-up backstory used to sell toy models and retconned on a constant basis to push the narrative in whichever direction they want it to go. I don't see why you're so hung up on this.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:38:23


Post by: Onething123456


catbarf wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind.


There's a post I remember reading on Reddit, which I'm sure I could find given enough time, written by ADB himself, where he explained that BL has always played fast and loose with canon. What one author created might be downplayed or outright ignored by other authors, or retconned in various ways. The authors write what they want to write, and it's fans far more than the authors themselves who nitpick these things.

So, per ADB's own words, his interpretation of the setting isn't gospel and can (and would) change the instant the majority of the rest of the BL team disagrees with him, and is more 'legend' than statements of fact.

It's a made-up backstory used to sell toy models and retconned on a constant basis to push the narrative in whichever direction they want it to go. I don't see why you're so hung up on this.



I know that. But you also have ADB saying we can safely say he is from the DAOT.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:41:30


Post by: BrianDavion


catbarf wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind.


There's a post I remember reading on Reddit, which I'm sure I could find given enough time, written by ADB himself, where he explained that BL has always played fast and loose with canon. What one author created might be downplayed or outright ignored by other authors, or retconned in various ways. The authors write what they want to write, and it's fans far more than the authors themselves who nitpick these things.

So, per ADB's own words, his interpretation of the setting isn't gospel and can (and would) change the instant the majority of the rest of the BL team disagrees with him, and is more 'legend' than statements of fact.

It's a made-up backstory used to sell toy models and retconned on a constant basis to push the narrative in whichever direction they want it to go. I don't see why you're so hung up on this.


per ADB's words Bligh rather liked the DAOT orgin idea. yet, as ADB said, clearly from what we can see it's not nesscarily true, my over all impression? the writers themselves don't nesscarily have a HARD idea as to what the Emperor IS. Bligh isn't just some random punk, he was a very important member of the FW staff and is often considered to be the "father of the Horus Heresy"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
According to old canon the Emperor was born in 8000 BC in Anatolia, Turkey. A holy child conceived by the mass ritual suicide of the shamen of antiquity; who after analysing their portents gave their lives to create a superbeing able to protect humanity from the growing threat of things from the warp.



Its not just old lore, its from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I just linked the book, and its incompatible with modern lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.



http://imgur.com/dImnK6j


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Realm-of-Chaos-the-Lost-and-the-Damned-HB-Warhammer-40kRPG-SOTDL-WFRP-OSR-/202463265789


So, this old lore you link is, by you own words "incompatible with modern lore" but you insist it is the truth anyway?

... are you trolling?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:50:00


Post by: Excommunicatus


Onething123456 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind. Basically word of God. Are we to say there is a canon in 40k despite several sources and links from the authors showing there is no canon?


Not in the slightest.

I am, however saying that a single Black LIbrary author does not dictate canon. Also, relying on canon and then immediately disavowing canon is an odd tactic.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:54:28


Post by: Onething123456


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind. Basically word of God. Are we to say there is a canon in 40k despite several sources and links from the authors showing there is no canon?


Not in the slightest.

I am, however saying that a single Black LIbrary author does not dictate canon. Also, relying on canon and then immediately disavowing canon is an odd tactic.




No canon in 40k. Interpret the setting however you want.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/18 23:57:11


Post by: Excommunicatus


I know that. It doesn't appear the OP does, though.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:03:40


Post by: Onething123456


 Excommunicatus wrote:
I know that. It doesn't appear the OP does, though.




Of course I do. Otherwise, I would not have said that.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:05:58


Post by: Excommunicatus


Oh. You are the OP.

So you started a thread to specifically argue that the Emperor, per canon, is not DAoT tech, but you also argue that there is no canon.

I haven't time for that kind of futility. Off you pop.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:09:06


Post by: Sasquatch


This has rather quickly turned into the most pointless thread I think I've seen on dakka. For my contribution I'll just say (as i think others have eluded to) an authors take on the 40k canon is only concrete till the next book is written. Using one as an authoratative source is kinda pointless.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:18:37


Post by: Onething123456


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Oh. You are the OP.

So you started a thread to specifically argue that the Emperor, per canon, is not DAoT tech, but you also argue that there is no canon.

I haven't time for that kind of futility. Off you pop.




To say that we can reasonably sure he is not from the DAOT.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:25:19


Post by: JNAProductions


Only until another author decides otherwise.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:26:46


Post by: Onething123456


 JNAProductions wrote:
Only until another author decides otherwise.




And that probably will not happen. ADB said the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech. And his bosses probably will not say it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:28:41


Post by: JNAProductions


Why do you say that?

What conversation did you have with his bosses?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:30:03


Post by: Onething123456


 JNAProductions wrote:
Why do you say that?

What conversation did you have with his bosses?




Why do I say that? Because ADB said it. And we can be reasonably sure his bosses will not.



And there is a problem with the Emperor being DOT tech. Namely his talk with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:34:56


Post by: Excommunicatus


Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:36:13


Post by: Grimskul


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:38:27


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:41:07


Post by: Grimskul


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


The main issue behind your repetitiveness is that you've discussed this train of thought across several threads, often in the wrong subforums, when you only really need one thread for this and it doesn't really lead to anymore discussion, especially since you don't engage in conversation other than by quote dumping and repeating the same statements ad nauseum. It comes across as spam and makes it so people don't want to engage at all.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:41:58


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


The main issue behind your repetitiveness is that you've discussed this train of thought across several threads, often in the wrong subforums, when you only really need one thread for this and it doesn't really lead to anymore discussion, especially since you don't engage in conversation other than by quote dumping and repeating the same statements ad nauseum. It comes across as spam and makes it so people don't want to engage at all.






Sorry about putting a lot of it in the wrong forums. But I learned from that and read the rules.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:43:13


Post by: Grimskul


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


The main issue behind your repetitiveness is that you've discussed this train of thought across several threads, often in the wrong subforums, when you only really need one thread for this and it doesn't really lead to anymore discussion, especially since you don't engage in conversation other than by quote dumping and repeating the same statements ad nauseum. It comes across as spam and makes it so people don't want to engage at all.






Sorry about putting a lot of it in the wrong forums. But I learned from that and read the rules.


Have you? This is clearly Background subforum material but you posted it here.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:47:42


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


The main issue behind your repetitiveness is that you've discussed this train of thought across several threads, often in the wrong subforums, when you only really need one thread for this and it doesn't really lead to anymore discussion, especially since you don't engage in conversation other than by quote dumping and repeating the same statements ad nauseum. It comes across as spam and makes it so people don't want to engage at all.






Sorry about putting a lot of it in the wrong forums. But I learned from that and read the rules.


Have you? This is clearly Background subforum material but you posted it here.




Its technically not background material, as it does not discuss any lore, but my talk with ADB.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 00:57:09


Post by: Grimskul


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


The main issue behind your repetitiveness is that you've discussed this train of thought across several threads, often in the wrong subforums, when you only really need one thread for this and it doesn't really lead to anymore discussion, especially since you don't engage in conversation other than by quote dumping and repeating the same statements ad nauseum. It comes across as spam and makes it so people don't want to engage at all.






Sorry about putting a lot of it in the wrong forums. But I learned from that and read the rules.


Have you? This is clearly Background subforum material but you posted it here.




Its technically not background material, as it does not discuss any lore, but my talk with ADB.


Wut. How is talking about the Emperor not being DAOT tech not about the lore. It's the crux of your conversation with ADB. That is lore, even if its from another website.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:00:51


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


The main issue behind your repetitiveness is that you've discussed this train of thought across several threads, often in the wrong subforums, when you only really need one thread for this and it doesn't really lead to anymore discussion, especially since you don't engage in conversation other than by quote dumping and repeating the same statements ad nauseum. It comes across as spam and makes it so people don't want to engage at all.






Sorry about putting a lot of it in the wrong forums. But I learned from that and read the rules.


Have you? This is clearly Background subforum material but you posted it here.




Its technically not background material, as it does not discuss any lore, but my talk with ADB.


Wut. How is talking about the Emperor not being DAOT tech not about the lore. It's the crux of your conversation with ADB. That is lore, even if its from another website.





Alright. But I thought it would not be background since it mostly dealt with my talk with ADB.


And because I thought it would not fit into background since it was mostly talking with an author.



Anyway, have a nice day.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:00:56


Post by: Excommunicatus


Schrodinger's Emperor is both canon and non-canon until observed.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:03:24


Post by: Grimskul


Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Because if you repeat a naked assertion, it has force.


The OP certainly lives up to his namesake, he likes to repeats 1 thing over and over a lot.





I am just saying, as ADB said, we can be reasonably sure the Emperor is not DAOT. And besides, Zu was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.


The main issue behind your repetitiveness is that you've discussed this train of thought across several threads, often in the wrong subforums, when you only really need one thread for this and it doesn't really lead to anymore discussion, especially since you don't engage in conversation other than by quote dumping and repeating the same statements ad nauseum. It comes across as spam and makes it so people don't want to engage at all.






Sorry about putting a lot of it in the wrong forums. But I learned from that and read the rules.


Have you? This is clearly Background subforum material but you posted it here.




Its technically not background material, as it does not discuss any lore, but my talk with ADB.


Wut. How is talking about the Emperor not being DAOT tech not about the lore. It's the crux of your conversation with ADB. That is lore, even if its from another website.





Alright. But I thought it would not be background since it mostly dealt with my talk with ADB.


Right, but said convo with ADB was about lore to begin with, so that would be background. It's like saying if you brought up a story about you talking about Trump with a local mayor isn't about politics, when the content involved in said story is inherently political by nature.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:04:35


Post by: Sasquatch


Onething123456 wrote:
Its technically not background material, as it does not discuss any lore, but my talk with ADB.


Well to be fair as far as I can see you haven't "Discussed" lore with anybody. From the threads I've read today you just seem to make an assertion, and then repeat said assertion periodically throughout the thread with a few book quotes thrown in from time to time.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:06:29


Post by: Onething123456


I'm gonna go outside or watch something.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:07:20


Post by: Grimskul


Onething123456 wrote:
I'm gonna go outside or watch something.


Okay? Have fun? Why even post that?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:10:15


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimskul wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
I'm gonna go outside or watch something.


Okay? Have fun? Why even post that?




To let you know I am going.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 01:21:56


Post by: SHUPPET


Onething123456 wrote:



No canon in 40k. Interpret the setting however you want.

This logic is so bad. If you don't want to participate in lore discussion, just don't.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 02:27:03


Post by: LumenPraebeo


I think the OP needs to give a more coherent and well thought out response, and I think everyone else needs to take into consideration that sometimes, full awareness and perspective are not so easy for some people.

Its been said many times in this forum, before this thread; that the lore is never set in stone. GW changes it, players will want to believe whatever it is they want to believe. And GW is perfectly okay with that too, and they encourage it. That being said, speculation is not something where one or more people are trying to push an agenda/theory off to everyone else as a fact.

When people were saying they THINK the Emperor was from DAOT tech, (whatever the hell that means) they were simply speculating, and while you are allowed to strongly disagree with it, going through effort to disprove such a theory is poor use of your time. Although that in itself is also subjective. You can use your time however you want.

The reason why people were speculating was because there is little evidence in lore to suggest a certainty of The Emperors history. And on that same note, even books written about 40K are subjective to an authors interpretation. So not even authors can give you a definitive answer. Ultimately, it is up to 40K fans to favor whatever theory they find is the best fit with other pieces of lore.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 02:51:31


Post by: Crimson


I think the interesting part about that Reddit discussion was ADB talking about different writers having their preferred favourite theories, just like us fans do. Whilst this is not surprising, it highlights how this thing works, the writers themselves do not know how the things 'really' are any more than us do. Some writer might drop some hints to their favourite theory in their work, but they avoid confirming too much.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 02:55:20


Post by: insaniak


Onething123456 wrote:

To let you know I am going.

I think you're confusing message boards with chatrooms.



 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?
.

No, although I do remember when the rules allowed dreadnoughts to ride in rhinos, so it's not really that out there an idea.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 04:40:32


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
I think the interesting part about that Reddit discussion was ADB talking about different writers having their preferred favourite theories, just like us fans do. Whilst this is not surprising, it highlights how this thing works, the writers themselves do not know how the things 'really are any more than us do. Some writer might drop some hints to their favourite theory in their work, but they avoid confirming too much.


yeah, Bligh wasn't exactly some minor functionary, the fact that it was his personal fav theory suggests it's NOT exactly an "out there one" yes one could argue Master of Mankind suggests the shaman theory most strongly but at the same time I could see a future reveal of "SUPRISE! THOSE WHERE FALSE MEMORIES IMPLANTED BY HIS CREATORS!"


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 04:41:19


Post by: TheWaspinator


Honestly, the idea that the Emperor is a false god of sorts cooked up in a lab at some point seems a lot more grimdark than the idea that he really is the super-saviour of mankind from ancient times.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 05:19:29


Post by: techsoldaten


While I haven't read all of the books quoted in this thread, nor am I familiar enough with ADB's work in general to comment on how authoritative a quote from him can be, it's safe to say the Emperor's origins are circa 1982 Nottingham England.

He was imported from Frank Herbert novels. And that's really all there is to know about it.

40k fluff changes based on the author. Making the case that something is true today means you are going to be wrong tomorrow.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 05:26:39


Post by: BrianDavion


 TheWaspinator wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the Emperor is a false god of sorts cooked up in a lab at some point seems a lot more grimdark than the idea that he really is the super-saviour of mankind from ancient times.


yeah, and he could geninuely BELIVE he has been around for ages, but perpetuals remember meeting him. ok, so... here's an Emperor theory for ya'll..

at the closing of the dark age of technology the emperor was an immensely powerful warlord, a man in whom the order of sigialites saw promise. the order of sigalites realized that their time was done and that they could do no more to safeguard humanity, another approuch was needed, so all of them, save Malcador, whom they appointed to serve as an advisor to this newly empowered man, killed themselves in a ritual, that grated the power of their souls to the Emperor's. one of the amaingly powerful things the empeoer can do, that no other psyker could, is use his mastery of the warp to travel through time! the emperor has routinely gone back in time to attempt to nudge things closer to what he wants, but everyttime he does so it useally just leads to more problems as a butterfly effect. The Cabal are, unbeknowest to them, actually SERVING a plot of the Emperor's. as he attempted to "correct" the heresy as best he could.

TLDR.... the world of warhammer 40k, is quite literally the best the emperor could manage after several tries.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 05:51:47


Post by: Insectum7


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


In 2nd Edition, Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders, as per the vehicle datafax that came with the starter box.

Just thought I'd point that out.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 06:50:35


Post by: SHUPPET


This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 08:36:44


Post by: Ginjitzu


Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
My talk with ADB on Reddit shows him saying we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. So I do not know why people keep saying the Emperor might be DAOT tech. And I am not going to be hostile in this thread, I am just saying that the Emperor is "safely" not DAOT tech going by my talk with ADB on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3



I think it's cool that he engages with fans in lore debates like that.

Excommunicatus wrote:Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


THIS! I must see a conversion of this! I can picture one riding around with the top cut open like an ape on a go kart. Someone please do this!

***

And just so I'm clear Onething, do you or do you not believe that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT?



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 09:13:08


Post by: insaniak



And just so I'm clear Onething, do you or do you not believe that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT?


Of course we can't safely say that.

They're listening.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 09:31:18


Post by: tneva82


 SHUPPET wrote:
This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means


When we have GW themselves stating nothing in 40k is really absolute truth...no wonder people say so. That's the official GW stance. Saying otherwise means thus you claim to know better than you know the guys who write it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 09:48:44


Post by: RobS




Excommunicatus wrote:Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


THIS! I must see a conversion of this! I can picture one riding around with the top cut open like an ape on a go kart. Someone please do this!

***

And just so I'm clear Onething, do you or do you not believe that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT?



I'm imagining the Dread shouting 'yaaaaay! Wheeee!'

That image made this thread slightly worthwhile.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 09:48:59


Post by: SHUPPET


tneva82 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means


When we have GW themselves stating nothing in 40k is really absolute truth...no wonder people say so. That's the official GW stance. Saying otherwise means thus you claim to know better than you know the guys who write it.

That's the opposite of how it is tho. They literally pull up their writers when they catch them doing something that conflicts with the correct lore and canon. Some things get published that are incorrect. Some other things get retconned. But there is canon.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 09:56:21


Post by: RobS


 SHUPPET wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means


When we have GW themselves stating nothing in 40k is really absolute truth...no wonder people say so. That's the official GW stance. Saying otherwise means thus you claim to know better than you know the guys who write it.

That's the opposite of how it is tho. They literally pull up their writers when they catch them doing something that conflicts with the correct lore and canon. Some things get published that are incorrect. Some other things get retconned. But there is canon.


I'm pretty sure I read a quote from ADB himself explaining that certain things in the books seem conflicting because you are reading from different characters POV's and they have a genuinely different interpretation or even memory of events.

It makes sense that over 10,000 years or more the ability to pin down a stone cold 'fact' becomes difficult.

However, I haven't read much of the BL books so I don't know how often an author describes an event as 'this is what happened' as opposed to 'this is what a certain character believes happened'.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 09:57:15


Post by: Overread


There is a Cannon its just likely not as detailed as many fans would make/like it to be. Also when you've a huge story its very easy to forget bits even if they are set in stone in an official internal document. Esp when the story itself is set over a huge expanse and timescale such as the whole Galaxy. There's room in there for a lot of things to clash without there being a ret-con necessarily.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 10:35:35


Post by: Ginjitzu


 SHUPPET wrote:

...They literally pull up their writers when they catch them doing something that conflicts with the correct lore and canon...


Do they really though? I always thought they had basically no quality management system when it came to preserving continuity. I mean, how else does one explain my fellow countryman, CS Goto?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 10:35:37


Post by: Banville


My only contribution to this thread is just to remind some people that some other people can become fixated on particular things and may not be able to logically articulate their ideas. This is often through no fault of their own. I'm making an assumption here, but I think basic human understanding and compassion is important when relying to anyone. Even on as part of an anonymous forum. That's just my take on things.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 10:41:00


Post by: SHUPPET


 Ginjitzu wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

...They literally pull up their writers when they catch them doing something that conflicts with the correct lore and canon...


Do they really though? I always thought they had basically no quality management system when it came to preserving continuity. I mean, how else does one explain my fellow countryman, CS Goto?

They definitely do. They don't catch it all. Or they updated policies, or care more about certain releases. Not sure why it is how it is. But it is.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 12:10:44


Post by: Solar-powered_chainsword


Onething123456 wrote:




To say that we can reasonably sure he is not from the DAOT.


But if there's no canon, we can't reasonably say anything, we can just pick whatever.

Either way, if there's no canon, you can never confirm the Emperor isn't DAOT tech, because it'd just be your opinion. If there is canon, ABD isn't in charge of it, and as with most BL writers it's just one thing being pushed forward when other writers have other ideas, and ADB's ideas are only speculation. Either way, nothing here confirms the Emperor isn't Dark Age Tech.

Not to be disrespectful, but I'd question whether the OP has some weird agenda I'm just completely missing here, or some intense hatred of the Emperor being tech idea beyond any rationality because they pretty quickly go from "there's no canon" to "there is canon since ADB can confirm things" to I don't know what else.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 12:16:47


Post by: Slipspace


The OP certainly seems to have some sort of agenda regarding the Emperor, among other things. TBH, the OP has an extremely...unique...posting style that isn't conducive to any form of reasonable discussion. The constant repetition of tangentially relevant mantra-like phrases, such as the one about there being no canon in 40k is one of their idiosyncrasies. From the context those phrases are often used I'm not even sure he understands what they mean half the time. Posts about speculation and head canon in these debates are often also taken far too literally.

Interesting discussions tend to break out in spite of the first post rather than because of it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 12:26:15


Post by: Crimson


There is canon in a sense that there is 'official body of work.' So the lore published by GW is canon. So multilaser terminators are canon and all three different versions of who saved Emperor on the Horus' ship are canon. When people talk about canon, they often really mean continuity, and there is not one clear continuity in 40K. Sure, there are some (many) things that are always in certain way, but the details are muddier. It's like Superman is always an alien from planet Krypton raised by farmers on American countryside and works as a reporter in Daily Planet while not superheroing, but details vary greatly in every retelling of the story, and you can't just pluck facts from Smallville and automatically assume they apply to DC cinematic setting.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 12:37:49


Post by: SHUPPET


there is canon

ADB has confirmed it


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 13:00:37


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Onething123456 wrote:
My talk with ADB on Reddit shows him saying we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. So I do not know why people keep saying the Emperor might be DAOT tech. And I am not going to be hostile in this thread, I am just saying that the Emperor is "safely" not DAOT tech going by my talk with ADB on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3



I don't think he's from DAOT but that doesn't confirm it, any other can write more evidence saying he might be from the DAOT. No writer no matter what his credibility can decide what is possible in the universe until its been written down on paper and is backed up with other sources.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 14:03:45


Post by: Onething123456


 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
My talk with ADB on Reddit shows him saying we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. So I do not know why people keep saying the Emperor might be DAOT tech. And I am not going to be hostile in this thread, I am just saying that the Emperor is "safely" not DAOT tech going by my talk with ADB on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3



I don't think he's from DAOT but that doesn't confirm it, any other can write more evidence saying he might be from the DAOT. No writer no matter what his credibility can decide what is possible in the universe until its been written down on paper and is backed up with other sources.




We can reasonably sure, not that it is certain.



And Delvarus, nice to see you.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 14:24:35


Post by: greatbigtree


Are you trying to start a new religion? First church of the Emperor Ascended or something?

Because that’s cool and all. You can quote the prophets of the Emperor, create some kind of omnibus of writings that are all contained in one book, prove his supernatural origin. Get king James to sign off on it.

That’s my takeaway here. Shalom to One Thing, full of grace, peace be upon him. For he is the keeper of the quote, and master of the repetition.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 14:27:31


Post by: Crimson


EDIT: Wrong thread.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 15:21:18


Post by: Delvarus Centurion


Onething123456 wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
My talk with ADB on Reddit shows him saying we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. So I do not know why people keep saying the Emperor might be DAOT tech. And I am not going to be hostile in this thread, I am just saying that the Emperor is "safely" not DAOT tech going by my talk with ADB on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3



I don't think he's from DAOT but that doesn't confirm it, any other can write more evidence saying he might be from the DAOT. No writer no matter what his credibility can decide what is possible in the universe until its been written down on paper and is backed up with other sources.




We can reasonably sure, not that it is certain.



And Delvarus, nice to see you.


You too, I get banned for the most stupid reasons, well most of them are stupid lol They even ban me for the same comments I've already been banned with.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 19:22:19


Post by: Andykp


The canon in 40k is best described as canon from someone’s perspective. It might be totally different from another. And it can be changed when needed just to suit GW. It’s such a shame Bligh didn’t get to finish the FW books. They are so much more reliable and interesting than the BL books.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/19 21:52:39


Post by: AegisGrimm


 TheWaspinator wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the Emperor is a false god of sorts cooked up in a lab at some point seems a lot more grimdark than the idea that he really is the super-saviour of mankind from ancient times.


I dunno, it's pretty grimdark to have a god-level psyker who's been around since ancient Sumeria, and all the horrible things like the Dark Age of technology, the Iron Men, and the Heresy STILL happened despite his supposedly awesome foresight.

A god-level psyker who still wasn't as good as a "really good dad" would have been, and now exists as a fragmented batch of insane consciousnesses, who may not actually even be affected by all the sacrifices made to the half-understood pile of tech he's hooked up to.

The Emperor reminds me of the one from the Mistborn trilogy, frankly.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 01:46:58


Post by: Onething123456


 AegisGrimm wrote:
 TheWaspinator wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the Emperor is a false god of sorts cooked up in a lab at some point seems a lot more grimdark than the idea that he really is the super-saviour of mankind from ancient times.


I dunno, it's pretty grimdark to have a god-level psyker who's been around since ancient Sumeria, and all the horrible things like the Dark Age of technology, the Iron Men, and the Heresy STILL happened despite his supposedly awesome foresight.

A god-level psyker who still wasn't as good as a "really good dad" would have been, and now exists as a fragmented batch of insane consciousnesses, who may not actually even be affected by all the sacrifices made to the half-understood pile of tech he's hooked up to.

The Emperor reminds me of the one from the Mistborn trilogy, frankly.







The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he is not omnipotent. So of course he could not stop those things.



And the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he saw no need intervene until the Age of Strife (he intervened as various figures from human history in types of trouble).





What makes 40k grimark is that there is no hope.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 07:47:30


Post by: phillv85


Is the golden throne still in a state of almost failure, and the lack of knowledge to repair it, or did that get retconned? I remember reading that around 2nd edition I think.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 07:50:42


Post by: BrianDavion


phillv85 wrote:
Is the golden throne still in a state of almost failure, and the lack of knowledge to repair it, or did that get retconned? I remember reading that around 2nd edition I think.


still seems to be the case


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 07:53:33


Post by: Grimtuff


phillv85 wrote:
Is the golden throne still in a state of almost failure, and the lack of knowledge to repair it, or did that get retconned? I remember reading that around 2nd edition I think.


The Ad Mech struck a deal with the DE to repair it as it was well and truly fethed.

"The Tech-Priest custodians at work in the Emperor’s Palace uncover irrevocable failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne. A dozen contingency expeditions are immediately launched, including a Xanthite war procession sent through the Exhubris Portal. The Xanthites fight through Harlequin Troupes and Daemon hordes alike before reaching their intended destination. In the grave-cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh, a dark bargain is struck."




My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 07:54:17


Post by: BrianDavion


 Grimtuff wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Is the golden throne still in a state of almost failure, and the lack of knowledge to repair it, or did that get retconned? I remember reading that around 2nd edition I think.


The Ad Mech struck a deal with the DE to repair it as it was well and truly fethed.

"The Tech-Priest custodians at work in the Emperor’s Palace uncover irrevocable failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne. A dozen contingency expeditions are immediately launched, including a Xanthite war procession sent through the Exhubris Portal. The Xanthites fight through Harlequin Troupes and Daemon hordes alike before reaching their intended destination. In the grave-cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh, a dark bargain is struck."




which IIRC didn't turn out to amount to anything


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 07:59:11


Post by: Grimtuff


BrianDavion wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Is the golden throne still in a state of almost failure, and the lack of knowledge to repair it, or did that get retconned? I remember reading that around 2nd edition I think.


The Ad Mech struck a deal with the DE to repair it as it was well and truly fethed.

"The Tech-Priest custodians at work in the Emperor’s Palace uncover irrevocable failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne. A dozen contingency expeditions are immediately launched, including a Xanthite war procession sent through the Exhubris Portal. The Xanthites fight through Harlequin Troupes and Daemon hordes alike before reaching their intended destination. In the grave-cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh, a dark bargain is struck."




which IIRC didn't turn out to amount to anything


Well, not yet, as that bit of fluff was only added in the 7th ed. Ad Mech book.

Nothing will probably come of it anyway and its a sneaky way to maintain the status quo and give an interesting look into an "evil" character. Vect may be a cold, heartless individual, but he would have a vested interest in keeping The Emperor (barely) alive, as turmoil in the warp sometimes causes daemonic intrusion into the webway. The death of The Emperor could potentially cause turmoil in the scale of the birth of Slaanesh, with the worst case scenario being the opening of Khaine's gate allowing Slaanesh to personally have access to Commorragh. Therefore a deal could probably be made, though at great cost to the Imperium.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 09:06:52


Post by: Dr Coconut


"reasonably sure", "probably not" hardly the words of a confirmation on who, where, what the Emp's origins are

It is deliberate vagueness on detail to emulate and parady events and views in the real world. certain characters are based on real people. The Emperor is based on God. No one knows where he\she comes from, but we have a history full of fighting over interpretation and symanics. many religions have the same god, but fight over the main prophet. Move that forward to a fictional setting a long time in the future... nothing changes. The Emp is a religion, source unknown, details scant. Some worship him to an exteme, others believe him a false Emperor. Most couldn't care less.

It's a fictional game, based on fictional books, in a fictional universe. It's not real. Believe what you want, others will believe what they want. My God/Emperor is better than yours though


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 09:28:46


Post by: BrianDavion


 Grimtuff wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Is the golden throne still in a state of almost failure, and the lack of knowledge to repair it, or did that get retconned? I remember reading that around 2nd edition I think.


The Ad Mech struck a deal with the DE to repair it as it was well and truly fethed.

"The Tech-Priest custodians at work in the Emperor’s Palace uncover irrevocable failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne. A dozen contingency expeditions are immediately launched, including a Xanthite war procession sent through the Exhubris Portal. The Xanthites fight through Harlequin Troupes and Daemon hordes alike before reaching their intended destination. In the grave-cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh, a dark bargain is struck."




which IIRC didn't turn out to amount to anything


Well, not yet, as that bit of fluff was only added in the 7th ed. Ad Mech book.

Nothing will probably come of it anyway and its a sneaky way to maintain the status quo and give an interesting look into an "evil" character. Vect may be a cold, heartless individual, but he would have a vested interest in keeping The Emperor (barely) alive, as turmoil in the warp sometimes causes daemonic intrusion into the webway. The death of The Emperor could potentially cause turmoil in the scale of the birth of Slaanesh, with the worst case scenario being the opening of Khaine's gate allowing Slaanesh to personally have access to Commorragh. Therefore a deal could probably be made, though at great cost to the Imperium.


actually I vaguely recall a novel dealing with it, I seem to vaguely recall that the dark eldar broke free and went on a murder spree on Terra.... or something


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 09:31:55


Post by: beast_gts


BrianDavion wrote:
actually I vaguely recall a novel dealing with it, I seem to vaguely recall that the dark eldar broke free and went on a murder spree on Terra.... or something

Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 09:50:38


Post by: Grimtuff


beast_gts wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
actually I vaguely recall a novel dealing with it, I seem to vaguely recall that the dark eldar broke free and went on a murder spree on Terra.... or something

Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne.


Interesting. Might have to give that a read.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 10:30:34


Post by: Formosa


I’ve said it before but it probably needs saying again.

An authors opinion does not matter until they put that opinion into print, an author can say that ultramarines are secretly chaos but until it’s actully in the fluff it’s just his opinion, that being said no, I don’t think the emperor is DAOT, while I like the Shaman origin I’d prefer they kept it unknown as it adds an air of mystery, not everything needs explaining


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 17:30:17


Post by: Onething123456


 Formosa wrote:
I’ve said it before but it probably needs saying again.

An authors opinion does not matter until they put that opinion into print, an author can say that ultramarines are secretly chaos but until it’s actully in the fluff it’s just his opinion, that being said no, I don’t think the emperor is DAOT, while I like the Shaman origin I’d prefer they kept it unknown as it adds an air of mystery, not everything needs explaining




ADB does not override the word of other authors, but he wrote Master of Mankind.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 17:53:37


Post by: Carlovonsexron


Who cares?
I mean, I like ADB, and I like the Emperor being a prehistoric Trojan-hittite messiah, but his words are only good until the next author weighs in.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 19:41:39


Post by: zedmeister


I love the idea of the Emperor being created during the Dark Age. It fits so perfectly. Humanity, in its own hubristic arrogance tried to create their own chaos God who has now, sort of, run a mock. It'd be even more fitting that, if it wasn't for the emperor, humanity would have been doing much better without him. So, if that was their attempt at a chaos God, did they make an attempt to create a human C'Tan?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/20 21:44:17


Post by: Onething123456


 zedmeister wrote:
I love the idea of the Emperor being created during the Dark Age. It fits so perfectly. Humanity, in its own hubristic arrogance tried to create their own chaos God who has now, sort of, run a mock. It'd be even more fitting that, if it wasn't for the emperor, humanity would have been doing much better without him. So, if that was their attempt at a chaos God, did they make an attempt to create a human C'Tan?




Unfortunately, the Perpetuals disprove that. And the book the shaman origin came from in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (and the other books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) are considered Games Workshop's best writing. 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the first and the best.




And ADB said we can safely say he is not DAOT. He wrote Master of Mankind.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 06:36:37


Post by: zedmeister


Onething123456 wrote:
Unfortunately, the Perpetuals disprove that. And the book the shaman origin came from in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (and the other books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) are considered Games Workshop's best writing. 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the first and the best.

And ADB said we can safely say he is not DAOT. He wrote Master of Mankind.


MoM? The book that had this quote?

Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.


Lots came from back in the early days. The emperor origin actually appeared in realm of chaos and not rogue trader. Alongside it the star child backstory was also given. But that has since been left by the wayside. And who knows what the perpetuals met? It is plausible the emperor was a perpetual but nothing beyond that and he that was experimented upon. Or, the fact that he's so powerful he could have implanted those memories after his creation. Or maybe the perpetuals were part of parallel dark age experiment with implanted false memories as well?

And, until it is stated in a book that the emperor is a result of the shaman sacrifice, competing theories will always remain. It was the late great Alan Blighs favourite theory as well, so who knows what notes were written by him with that theory in mind...


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 07:51:31


Post by: Onething123456


 zedmeister wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Unfortunately, the Perpetuals disprove that. And the book the shaman origin came from in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (and the other books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) are considered Games Workshop's best writing. 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the first and the best.

And ADB said we can safely say he is not DAOT. He wrote Master of Mankind.


MoM? The book that had this quote?

Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.


Lots came from back in the early days. The emperor origin actually appeared in realm of chaos and not rogue trader. Alongside it the star child backstory was also given. But that has since been left by the wayside. And who knows what the perpetuals met? It is plausible the emperor was a perpetual but nothing beyond that and he that was experimented upon. Or, the fact that he's so powerful he could have implanted those memories after his creation. Or maybe the perpetuals were part of parallel dark age experiment with implanted false memories as well?

And, until it is stated in a book that the emperor is a result of the shaman sacrifice, competing theories will always remain. It was the late great Alan Blighs favourite theory as well, so who knows what notes were written by him with that theory in mind...




And did Zu realize that when you look at the Emperor you see what he wants you to see? You don't see him breath as a 16 foot tall golden gaint because he is trying (and is) looking Godlike. His real form is probably a normal human.



I know that. I don't mean Rick Priestley's book from 1987, I mean the edition itself. 1st Edition Rogue Trader, not the book.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 08:56:52


Post by: phillv85


How many people genuinely consider that rogue trader era writing is GW's best? It's barely coherent in some places. I know even now there is plenty of conflicting lore, but some of the rogue trader stuff is utter crap. Space Marines being criminals in power armour anyone?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 08:57:53


Post by: Onething123456


phillv85 wrote:
How many people genuinely consider that rogue trader era writing is GW's best? It's barely coherent in some places. I know even now there is plenty of conflicting lore, but some of the rogue trader stuff is utter crap. Space Marines being criminals in power armour anyone?




Many Youtubers do. And a lot of friends of mine on Reddit do.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 08:59:49


Post by: Manchu


I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 09:20:27


Post by: Onething123456


 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 09:24:48


Post by: ingtaer


Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.


Got any evidence for that? Like actual proof not your suppositions and wishes dressed up as fact.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 09:29:57


Post by: reds8n


Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




Don't think that is true for one moment.

Most of the RT era stuff is laughably bad in so many ways, not least as it was pretty much throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

The Bestiary being basically the entire citadel mini range of the time is an example of that.

And I think most people would agree the current Ultramarine background makes much more sense than the RT era one presented in WD.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 10:19:14


Post by: Andykp


 zedmeister wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Unfortunately, the Perpetuals disprove that. And the book the shaman origin came from in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (and the other books from 1st Edition Rogue Trader) are considered Games Workshop's best writing. 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the first and the best.

And ADB said we can safely say he is not DAOT. He wrote Master of Mankind.


MoM? The book that had this quote?

Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.


Lots came from back in the early days. The emperor origin actually appeared in realm of chaos and not rogue trader. Alongside it the star child backstory was also given. But that has since been left by the wayside. And who knows what the perpetuals met? It is plausible the emperor was a perpetual but nothing beyond that and he that was experimented upon. Or, the fact that he's so powerful he could have implanted those memories after his creation. Or maybe the perpetuals were part of parallel dark age experiment with implanted false memories as well?

And, until it is stated in a book that the emperor is a result of the shaman sacrifice, competing theories will always remain. It was the late great Alan Blighs favourite theory as well, so who knows what notes were written by him with that theory in mind...



A lot of people mean the entire first edition when they say rogue trader era fluff. It was a long time. And although in the actual rogue trader book some of the stuff is iffy, the way the universe was fluffed out in that era was some of the best work done. The realm of chaos books and the ORK books are unsurpassed by anything that has come since. The imperial guard have lost their flavour with the coming of second edition real world equivalents and are still recovering. The eldar story hasn’t much changed and has been guided by jes Goodwin and co so is still owes it’s goodness to the first edition era.

The description of the emperor in RT is one of the more sensible, a mutant born of normal people who hid for thousands of years getting wiser and stronger until he decided it was time. But that said I prefer the shaman theory and the starchild stuff. But the more I hear the more I like the idea of the emperor being tampered with or replaced with DAOT tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the perpetuals are awful (and NOT well written!!!!) and I really don’t get why they were included at all. I never once thought that the setting needed some immortal comic book style know it alls who happen to have been at every part of current human history just for Easter eggs.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 10:25:48


Post by: Manchu


Yeah, over the years Realm of Chaos and The Lost and the Damned are the two books I have heard talked up the most, and the prices on ebay over the years seem to corroborate that there is demand for them.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 10:28:58


Post by: BrianDavion


Things like "best fluff" and "well written" are a TOTALLY subjective opinion. (unless you mean from an academic literature POV, and if thats the case I got news for you, NOTHING in 40k would qualify as high end Literature) So insisting "EVERYONE ACCEPT THIS BECAUSE IT WAS THE BEST" is to put it bluntly, more then a little arrogant.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 10:48:03


Post by: Crimson


phillv85 wrote:
How many people genuinely consider that rogue trader era writing is GW's best? It's barely coherent in some places. I know even now there is plenty of conflicting lore, but some of the rogue trader stuff is utter crap. Space Marines being criminals in power armour anyone?
I think I prefer those Marines over what we have today. Tough merciless killers with some serious issues, not overblinged demigods of battle. RT fluff has the sort of freshness and genuinity has gotten lost over the years. The setting now is so pompous. Compare the picture of Leman Russ in the RT book to the current shiny depictions of Guilliman, the difference in tone is stark.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 11:34:44


Post by: Andykp


 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, over the years Realm of Chaos and The Lost and the Damned are the two books I have heard talked up the most, and the prices on ebay over the years seem to corroborate that there is demand for them.


Slaves to darkness (the real first one) is available from Warhammer world. That book and the ORK ones are what truly got me hooked onto 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
How many people genuinely consider that rogue trader era writing is GW's best? It's barely coherent in some places. I know even now there is plenty of conflicting lore, but some of the rogue trader stuff is utter crap. Space Marines being criminals in power armour anyone?
I think I prefer those Marines over what we have today. Tough merciless killers with some serious issues, not overblinged demigods of battle. RT fluff has the sort of freshness and genuinity has gotten lost over the years. The setting now is so pompous. Compare the picture of Leman Russ in the RT book to the current shiny depictions of Guilliman, the difference in tone is stark.


That’s why I like primaris. It’s wiping the slate clean for marines. Losing all that bling and 30k BL “personality”. I have been reinvigorated by them and have fluffed out a lovely chapter all about fighting. No daddy issue in sight.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 11:40:46


Post by: Crimson


Andykp wrote:

That’s why I like primaris. It’s wiping the slate clean for marines. Losing all that bling and 30k BL “personality”. I have been reinvigorated by them and have fluffed out a lovely chapter all about fighting. No daddy issue in sight.

Yeah, I agree. I have leafed through a lot of BT era stuff for inspiration for my Primaris marines.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 12:37:53


Post by: Andykp


 Crimson wrote:
Andykp wrote:

That’s why I like primaris. It’s wiping the slate clean for marines. Losing all that bling and 30k BL “personality”. I have been reinvigorated by them and have fluffed out a lovely chapter all about fighting. No daddy issue in sight.

Yeah, I agree. I have leafed through a lot of BT era stuff for inspiration for my Primaris marines.


I plan to put my primaris on here soon. Bit more painting to be done but I want fluff and all of it on here. Problem is they donation marines of the gender that must not be spoken so it could go wrong.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 13:59:03


Post by: Onething123456


 reds8n wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




Don't think that is true for one moment.

Most of the RT era stuff is laughably bad in so many ways, not least as it was pretty much throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

The Bestiary being basically the entire citadel mini range of the time is an example of that.

And I think most people would agree the current Ultramarine background makes much more sense than the RT era one presented in WD.





Do you have proof for any of this? Why do you say that? Rogue Trader, Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, and Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned are popular books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ingtaer wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.


Got any evidence for that? Like actual proof not your suppositions and wishes dressed up as fact.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKGMK6R2shw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGqbJxDPCx0

Leakycheese on YouTube has been following since 1st Edition Rogue Trader, and he, like many who have been following as long as him, think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader had some of the best lore around. The shaman origin, Sensei and Star Child were well written (for them, at least).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
phillv85 wrote:
How many people genuinely consider that rogue trader era writing is GW's best? It's barely coherent in some places. I know even now there is plenty of conflicting lore, but some of the rogue trader stuff is utter crap. Space Marines being criminals in power armour anyone?




Marines at that time were criminals who were mind wiped . That is all. And many of them are still that way in current lore.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 14:50:53


Post by: HoundsofDemos


 Crimson wrote:
Andykp wrote:

That’s why I like primaris. It’s wiping the slate clean for marines. Losing all that bling and 30k BL “personality”. I have been reinvigorated by them and have fluffed out a lovely chapter all about fighting. No daddy issue in sight.

Yeah, I agree. I have leafed through a lot of BT era stuff for inspiration for my Primaris marines.


Except Primaris marines are even more noble bright than normal marines. They are super duper marines that barely even share there chapters flaws or quarks. They marines just more generic and better cause reasons.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 14:56:59


Post by: Crimson


HoundsofDemos wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Andykp wrote:

That’s why I like primaris. It’s wiping the slate clean for marines. Losing all that bling and 30k BL “personality”. I have been reinvigorated by them and have fluffed out a lovely chapter all about fighting. No daddy issue in sight.

Yeah, I agree. I have leafed through a lot of BT era stuff for inspiration for my Primaris marines.


Except Primaris marines are even more noble bright than normal marines. They are super duper marines that barely even share there chapters flaws or quarks. They marines just more generic and better cause reasons.

The fluff has gone hell in a handbasket a long time ago. The models are plain and functional and evoke the similar feel than the RT beakies. Though even in the fluff they have more 'soldier' feel, they're not so steeped in all that warrior monk stuff.




My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 15:26:31


Post by: Excommunicatus


Insectum7 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


In 2nd Edition, Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders, as per the vehicle datafax that came with the starter box.

Just thought I'd point that out.


Cool story. I bought the book that features this in 6th Ed., so by the 'logic' presented here, they still can and will always be able to ride in Land Raiders. 'Cause a single BL 'writer' said so, once. For some bizarre reason they can't do so in-game and are never depicted doing so in the fluff any more. Weird, huh?

Almost as if a single BL 'writer' doesn't get to arbitrarily and unilaterally dictate aspects of the universe.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 15:35:28


Post by: Crimson


I'm still waiting that multilaser option to be added to my terminators in the next codex!


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 15:44:36


Post by: Avatar 720


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


In 2nd Edition, Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders, as per the vehicle datafax that came with the starter box.

Just thought I'd point that out.


Cool story. I bought the book that features this in 6th Ed., so by the 'logic' presented here, they still can and will always be able to ride in Land Raiders. 'Cause a single BL 'writer' said so, once. For some bizarre reason they can't do so in-game and are never depicted doing so in the fluff any more. Weird, huh?

Almost as if a single BL 'writer' doesn't get to arbitrarily and unilaterally dictate aspects of the universe.


That's a strangely sarcastic and antagonistic reply to a post simply stating a fun fact.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:08:16


Post by: Grimtuff


Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




Don't think that is true for one moment.

Most of the RT era stuff is laughably bad in so many ways, not least as it was pretty much throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

The Bestiary being basically the entire citadel mini range of the time is an example of that.

And I think most people would agree the current Ultramarine background makes much more sense than the RT era one presented in WD.





Do you have proof for any of this? Why do you say that? Rogue Trader, Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, and Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned are popular books.




I... I don't think you understand the difference between fact and opinion do you?

You're stating your own opinions as if they're categorical facts and the RT books that you love so much were some kind of edict from on high. They're not.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:09:19


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimtuff wrote:
Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




Don't think that is true for one moment.

Most of the RT era stuff is laughably bad in so many ways, not least as it was pretty much throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

The Bestiary being basically the entire citadel mini range of the time is an example of that.

And I think most people would agree the current Ultramarine background makes much more sense than the RT era one presented in WD.





Do you have proof for any of this? Why do you say that? Rogue Trader, Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, and Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned are popular books.




I... I don't think you understand the difference between fact and opinion do you?

You're stating your own opinions as if they're categorical facts and the RT books that you love so much were some kind of edict from on high. They're not.



I do. Its the opinion of many players that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best, not that it factually is.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:13:30


Post by: JNAProductions


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




Don't think that is true for one moment.

Most of the RT era stuff is laughably bad in so many ways, not least as it was pretty much throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

The Bestiary being basically the entire citadel mini range of the time is an example of that.

And I think most people would agree the current Ultramarine background makes much more sense than the RT era one presented in WD.





Do you have proof for any of this? Why do you say that? Rogue Trader, Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, and Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned are popular books.




I... I don't think you understand the difference between fact and opinion do you?

You're stating your own opinions as if they're categorical facts and the RT books that you love so much were some kind of edict from on high. They're not.



I do. Its the opinion of many players that 1st Edition ROgue Trader was the best, not that it factually is.


So, who told you that? I can't comment on that specifically, since I started in early 7th, but it seems that a lot of the other people here who DID start that early think the fluff is kinda disjointed and weird. There's good elements, certainly, but it's not the best to them.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:14:28


Post by: Grimtuff


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




Don't think that is true for one moment.

Most of the RT era stuff is laughably bad in so many ways, not least as it was pretty much throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

The Bestiary being basically the entire citadel mini range of the time is an example of that.

And I think most people would agree the current Ultramarine background makes much more sense than the RT era one presented in WD.





Do you have proof for any of this? Why do you say that? Rogue Trader, Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, and Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned are popular books.




I... I don't think you understand the difference between fact and opinion do you?

You're stating your own opinions as if they're categorical facts and the RT books that you love so much were some kind of edict from on high. They're not.



I do. Its the opinion of many players that 1st Edition ROgue Trader was the best, not that it factually is.


Okay, prove it. You say you evidence- where is it?

I would argue the vast majority of people play GW's games nowadays have never even heard of RT, much less were even born when it first appeared. Same goes for 2nd ed.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:20:02


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimtuff wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Spoiler:
Onething123456 wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I think ian Watson’s novels are generally the best written 40k stuff ever.




Most people who have been following 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader think that 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.




Don't think that is true for one moment.

Most of the RT era stuff is laughably bad in so many ways, not least as it was pretty much throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

The Bestiary being basically the entire citadel mini range of the time is an example of that.

And I think most people would agree the current Ultramarine background makes much more sense than the RT era one presented in WD.





Do you have proof for any of this? Why do you say that? Rogue Trader, Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, and Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned are popular books.




I... I don't think you understand the difference between fact and opinion do you?

You're stating your own opinions as if they're categorical facts and the RT books that you love so much were some kind of edict from on high. They're not.



I do. Its the opinion of many players that 1st Edition ROgue Trader was the best, not that it factually is.


Okay, prove it. You say you evidence- where is it?

I would argue the vast majority of people play GW's games nowadays have never even heard of RT, much less were even born when it first appeared. Same goes for 2nd ed.




I gave a link to Leakycheese on YouTube. Good Youtuber who was around in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:21:48


Post by: Grimtuff


One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:35:23


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...





There were other people I talked to who agreed.



But I see your point.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 16:36:20


Post by: JNAProductions


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...


There were other people I talked to who agreed.


The plural of Anecdote is not Data.

If you want to, set up a poll here, see what people think.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 19:43:22


Post by: BrianDavion


 JNAProductions wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...


There were other people I talked to who agreed.


The plural of Anecdote is not Data.

If you want to, set up a poll here, see what people think.


and even then all it'll do is gauge the opinion of DakkaDakka posters, we're hardly a majority of the player base. although for these purposes I think we make a solid cross section


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 20:31:31


Post by: Onething123456


 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...




And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 20:34:24


Post by: Grimtuff


Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...




And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.


Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 20:38:47


Post by: Onething123456


If you insist.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:03:36


Post by: Andykp


 Grimtuff wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...




And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.


Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...


Onething has been on here for a few months now getting stuff wrong and arguing in his weird repetitive way, but I’ve come to feel quite protective of him. He means well and you even begin to notice he tries to please and appease people more than a lot of others on here. So don’t be so mean bless him. For what it’s worth the whole 1st edition background is mike better than now. I like the advanced story arc but the HH is a hot mess and marines have become a joke.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:04:50


Post by: Onething123456


Andykp wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...




And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.


Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...


Onething has been on here for a few months now getting stuff wrong and arguing in his weird repetitive way, but I’ve come to feel quite protective of him. He means well and you even begin to notice he tries to please and appease people more than a lot of others on here. So don’t be so mean bless him. For what it’s worth the whole 1st edition background is mike better than now. I like the advanced story arc but the HH is a hot mess and marines have become a joke.




I certainly do not think Horus' fall was well written, but there are things in the Horus Heresy books I think are good.



There was no "Imperial Truth" prior to the Horus Heresy books.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:10:23


Post by: insaniak


 Excommunicatus wrote:


Cool story. I bought the book that features this in 6th Ed., so by the 'logic' presented here, they still can and will always be able to ride in Land Raiders. 'Cause a single BL 'writer' said so, once. For some bizarre reason they can't do so in-game and are never depicted doing so in the fluff any more. Weird, huh?

Almost as if a single BL 'writer' doesn't get to arbitrarily and unilaterally dictate aspects of the universe.

And yet it was included in the book...


The thing is, not everything in the fiction is going to match what is possible in the game. Nor does it need to. It's entirely possible in universe that a Chapter out there somewhere has a land raider modified to carry a dreadnought. Whether or not that's legal in the game is irrelevant, just as the lack of an option to loot weapons from fallen squad mates in game doesn't invalidate the Eisenhorn books...


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:12:10


Post by: Crimson


Onething123456 wrote:

There was no "Imperial Truth" prior to the Horus Heresy books.

That is definitely my favourite thing that those books added. A guy who tries to end religion ending up being worshipped as a god is exactly the sort of black humour this setting needs more.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:22:44


Post by: Onething123456


 Crimson wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:

There was no "Imperial Truth" prior to the Horus Heresy books.

That is definitely my favourite thing that those books added. A guy who tries to end religion ending up being worshipped as a god is exactly the sort of black humour this setting needs more.








My quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum implies that the Emperor knew about the Horus Heresy.



The Imperial Truth is a bit hypercritical. The Emperor conquers planets that refuse to join and refuse the Imperial Truth (granted, he is not as barbaric as Isis, but still), and so on.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:25:31


Post by: SHUPPET


Onething123456 wrote:





My quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum implies that the Emperor knew about the Horus Heresy.



So much stuff suggests he not only knew, but sculpted the Heresy himself. Which quote are you referring to? I know of a few from that book that support the idea, near the end


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:38:14


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:





My quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum implies that the Emperor knew about the Horus Heresy.



So much stuff suggests he not only knew, but sculpted the Heresy himself. Which quote are you referring to? I know of a few from that book that support the idea, near the end




This quote below.



‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’

‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:50:06


Post by: SHUPPET


That's a fair one. There's also one in there where she initially hates the Emperor for what he's done by deceiving the Mechanicum and using them as a tool, but only for a tiny measure of time as she gains all his knowledge of the future, and why he does it. She sees what is described as the never ending possibilities in each one of them humanity dying a brutal death, but the one narrow path he has to steer humanity down for them to survive, and the "lifetime of sacrifice" that awaits, and the selflessness of him to walk this path for the sake of everyone else.

It seems a pretty clear implication that he is aware that he has to end up on the golden throne, and the fact that in everyone else's visions of possible futures in the setting (the Eldar, all the races of the Cabal, etc), humanity die no matter who wins the war, so he sculpted a perfectly balanced Heresy and gave both sides similarly powerful tools to cause a stalemate and had himself taken out of the picture.

And then there is just evidence on top of evidence to support this from different books that I can't be bothered to go into now.



Reminds me of Infinity War where everyone thinks Starlord caused everything to go bad, but really what he did is almost definitely a necessary part of the single future where they all live.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 21:58:14


Post by: Onething123456


And the Emperor granted her his power and immortality after that.

Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 22:00:56


Post by: SHUPPET


That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 22:15:37


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.






And at least one of the Perpetuals does not like the Emperor. Perpetual Oll Persson (he is the Perpetual who does not like the Emperor) basically says the Emperor has been playing with the galaxy for tens of thousands of years, and he wanted no part of it.



He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.



https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350







My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 22:46:40


Post by: BrianDavion


 SHUPPET wrote:
That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.


Although it certainly doubles down the emperor's hipocracy as it implies desprie his whole Imperial truth thing he not only accepts the Mechnius' religion, he sowed seeds that allowed it to occur


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 22:48:51


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.


Although it certainly doubles down the emperor's hipocracy as it implies desprie his whole Imperial truth thing he not only accepts the Mechnius' religion, he sowed seeds that allowed it to occur




But do remember that he could not destroy the Void Dragon.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 22:52:55


Post by: insaniak


 SHUPPET wrote:
That's a fair one. There's also one in there where she initially hates the Emperor for what he's done by deceiving the Mechanicum and using them as a tool, but only for a tiny measure of time as she gains all his knowledge of the future, and why he does it. She sees what is described as the never ending possibilities in each one of them humanity dying a brutal death, but the one narrow path he has to steer humanity down for them to survive, and the "lifetime of sacrifice" that awaits, and the selflessness of him to walk this path for the sake of everyone else.

It seems a pretty clear implication that he is aware that he has to end up on the golden throne, and the fact that in everyone else's visions of possible futures in the setting (the Eldar, all the races of the Cabal, etc), humanity die no matter who wins the war, so he sculpted a perfectly balanced Heresy and gave both sides similarly powerful tools to cause a stalemate and had himself taken out of the picture.

Master of Mankind made it fairly clear that he sees many possible futures and has to try to work with those visions to bring about the future that he wants, and that this isn't always successful simply due to the complexity of actually doing that. And we're given fairly clear hints elsewhere that Magnus was the one who was supposed to wind up on the throne.

It seems likely that the Emperor was aware of the Heresy as one potential (and quite likely) future, and he may well have taken steps to ensure that if it came to pass, it would play out a certain way, but it seems unlikely from what we're told in MoM that it was his preferred outcome.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/21 23:02:51


Post by: SHUPPET


 insaniak wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
That's a fair one. There's also one in there where she initially hates the Emperor for what he's done by deceiving the Mechanicum and using them as a tool, but only for a tiny measure of time as she gains all his knowledge of the future, and why he does it. She sees what is described as the never ending possibilities in each one of them humanity dying a brutal death, but the one narrow path he has to steer humanity down for them to survive, and the "lifetime of sacrifice" that awaits, and the selflessness of him to walk this path for the sake of everyone else.

It seems a pretty clear implication that he is aware that he has to end up on the golden throne, and the fact that in everyone else's visions of possible futures in the setting (the Eldar, all the races of the Cabal, etc), humanity die no matter who wins the war, so he sculpted a perfectly balanced Heresy and gave both sides similarly powerful tools to cause a stalemate and had himself taken out of the picture.

Master of Mankind made it fairly clear that he sees many possible futures and has to try to work with those visions to bring about the future that he wants, and that this isn't always successful simply due to the complexity of actually doing that. And we're given fairly clear hints elsewhere that Magnus was the one who was supposed to wind up on the throne.

It seems likely that the Emperor was aware of the Heresy as one potential (and quite likely) future, and he may well have taken steps to ensure that if it came to pass, it would play out a certain way, but it seems unlikely from what we're told in MoM that it was his preferred outcome.

The Board Is Set also deals with this heavily. He knew a Heresy was coming, and as said, sculpted it himself and tried to align the preferred pieces in place. I think he knew he either had to sit on the throne or die however, otherwise the whole thing falls apart. It also seems like he was also a a callous prick to like, exactly half of his sons, and Magnus was one of them, so it does seem sort of deliberately sculpted. However I agree, there was also an implication of Magnus and the throne, though I think that was just an aspect of design necessary as a safety net had a different future come to pass.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 22:01:03


Post by: Onething123456


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.


Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind. Basically word of God. Are we to say there is a canon in 40k despite several sources and links from the authors showing there is no canon?


Not in the slightest.

I am, however saying that a single Black LIbrary author does not dictate canon. Also, relying on canon and then immediately disavowing canon is an odd tactic.




The others seem to have been off topic, but if ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT tech, then the Emperor is probably not DOAT and will probably never written as DAOT tech.



And ADB wrote the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...




And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.


Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...


Onething has been on here for a few months now getting stuff wrong and arguing in his weird repetitive way, but I’ve come to feel quite protective of him. He means well and you even begin to notice he tries to please and appease people more than a lot of others on here. So don’t be so mean bless him. For what it’s worth the whole 1st edition background is mike better than now. I like the advanced story arc but the HH is a hot mess and marines have become a joke.




I am right about the Emperor. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (not the book) said the Emperor was born in Anatolia, and the Perpetuals show he was around before our time.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 22:03:33


Post by: BrianDavion


ADB wrote a book


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 22:04:32


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 22:11:15


Post by: BrianDavion


Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 22:13:17


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.




And it was hinted at nowhere in the books until Master of Mankind.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 22:22:05


Post by: SHUPPET


BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.


He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 22:42:26


Post by: BrianDavion


 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.


He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true



Per the Audio novel "Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium" the Emperor was not the emperor until he met Malcador, and until then had simply been another one of the Warlords fighting for Terra (sadly it's an audio story or I'd provide a page referance and quote) Now we can debate what he means by "become the emperor" BUT... we also know Malcador is the last of the sigalites, with his order having dissappered around the rise of the Emperor, perhaps the rest of the Order of the Sigialites sacrificed themselves to boost the Emperor's power to the levels he'd need it to be? ADB's quite right that the evidance is strong that the Emperor has been around for ages, but the evidance he's been around and as powerful as he is at the time of the Heresy is MUCH MUCH weaker. We know with reasonably certianty the Emperor is very old and has been around awhile, it likely he has some psykic talent. We cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that he did not receive a boost during the dark of of technology or shortly afterward.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 23:13:05


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.


He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true



Yes, SHUPPET. I as well think my quote from Age of Darkness shows the Crusade had moral boundaries.




"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/22 23:41:59


Post by: Andykp


To me that quote says the emperor knew what Angron was like and knew how bad he was but used angrons rage and genocidal mania when it suited him. He might not have liked it but he certainly took advantage of it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 01:13:28


Post by: SHUPPET


BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.


He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true



Per the Audio novel "Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium" the Emperor was not the emperor until he met Malcador, and until then had simply been another one of the Warlords fighting for Terra (sadly it's an audio story or I'd provide a page referance and quote) Now we can debate what he means by "become the emperor" BUT... we also know Malcador is the last of the sigalites, with his order having dissappered around the rise of the Emperor, perhaps the rest of the Order of the Sigialites sacrificed themselves to boost the Emperor's power to the levels he'd need it to be? ADB's quite right that the evidance is strong that the Emperor has been around for ages, but the evidance he's been around and as powerful as he is at the time of the Heresy is MUCH MUCH weaker. We know with reasonably certianty the Emperor is very old and has been around awhile, it likely he has some psykic talent. We cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that he did not receive a boost during the dark of of technology or shortly afterward.

He fought the void dragon, a C'Tan, during like the time of the ancient aztecs, and won. I'd say he was pretty powerful before the DAOT. Anyway, the point I was making was where's this evidence of this being a common theory BEFORE Master of Mankind, as you just claimed. Malcador FLOTI was released half a year after that, so isn't really a source for what you claim at all


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 02:28:20


Post by: Onething123456


Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.


He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true



Per the Audio novel "Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium" the Emperor was not the emperor until he met Malcador, and until then had simply been another one of the Warlords fighting for Terra (sadly it's an audio story or I'd provide a page referance and quote) Now we can debate what he means by "become the emperor" BUT... we also know Malcador is the last of the sigalites, with his order having dissappered around the rise of the Emperor, perhaps the rest of the Order of the Sigialites sacrificed themselves to boost the Emperor's power to the levels he'd need it to be? ADB's quite right that the evidance is strong that the Emperor has been around for ages, but the evidance he's been around and as powerful as he is at the time of the Heresy is MUCH MUCH weaker. We know with reasonably certianty the Emperor is very old and has been around awhile, it likely he has some psykic talent. We cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that he did not receive a boost during the dark of of technology or shortly afterward.

He fought the void dragon, a C'Tan, during like the time of the ancient aztecs, and won. I'd say he was pretty powerful before the DAOT. Anyway, the point I was making was where's this evidence of this being a common theory BEFORE Master of Mankind, as you just claimed. Malcador FLOTI was released half a year after that, so isn't really a source for what you claim at all






And the Emperor fought a mutant named Gog on Old Earth in John French's Athame shorts story from Mark of Calth with his power. And he fought the Void Dragon as Saint George.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755



And Malcador collected things such as the Rosetta stone, the Mona Lisa, and so on.



I don't see how that audio drama proves anything.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 02:56:06


Post by: BrianDavion


Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book





He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.


no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.


He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true



Per the Audio novel "Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium" the Emperor was not the emperor until he met Malcador, and until then had simply been another one of the Warlords fighting for Terra (sadly it's an audio story or I'd provide a page referance and quote) Now we can debate what he means by "become the emperor" BUT... we also know Malcador is the last of the sigalites, with his order having dissappered around the rise of the Emperor, perhaps the rest of the Order of the Sigialites sacrificed themselves to boost the Emperor's power to the levels he'd need it to be? ADB's quite right that the evidance is strong that the Emperor has been around for ages, but the evidance he's been around and as powerful as he is at the time of the Heresy is MUCH MUCH weaker. We know with reasonably certianty the Emperor is very old and has been around awhile, it likely he has some psykic talent. We cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that he did not receive a boost during the dark of of technology or shortly afterward.

He fought the void dragon, a C'Tan, during like the time of the ancient aztecs, and won. I'd say he was pretty powerful before the DAOT. Anyway, the point I was making was where's this evidence of this being a common theory BEFORE Master of Mankind, as you just claimed. Malcador FLOTI was released half a year after that, so isn't really a source for what you claim at all






And the Emperor fought a mutant named Gog on Old Earth in John French's Athame shorts story from Mark of Calth with his power. And he fought the Void Dragon as Saint George.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755



And Malcador collected things such as the Rosetta stone, the Mona Lisa, and so on.



I don't see how that audio drama proves anything.


it doesn't prove anything by itself, what it does it hint that there's simply more to it. If the emperor's background is a puzzle you're looking at a single portion of the assmbled puzzle that seems to form a picture and declaring the puzzle is that picture. I'm arguing that just because we seem to have a picture of an apple, does NOT mean the puzzle's complete picture is "just an apple" A LOT can happen in thirty thousand years, and I think it's fair to assume the Emperor's back story is thus rather complex.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 03:28:12


Post by: Excommunicatus


 insaniak wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:


Cool story. I bought the book that features this in 6th Ed., so by the 'logic' presented here, they still can and will always be able to ride in Land Raiders. 'Cause a single BL 'writer' said so, once. For some bizarre reason they can't do so in-game and are never depicted doing so in the fluff any more. Weird, huh?

Almost as if a single BL 'writer' doesn't get to arbitrarily and unilaterally dictate aspects of the universe.

And yet it was included in the book...


And thus is eternally true.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Or, you know, not. At all.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 03:48:03


Post by: greatbigtree


You think I know feth-nothing, when in fact I know feth-all.

This is such a weird thing to watch. Nothing of meaning is presented. It's one claim amongst a sea of claims. Part of the mystery is that the mystery is deliberate. It's a setting, that lets you play in it. Like a stage. Depends on the director what's put on that stage, yet many different plays can be put on that same stage.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 08:10:23


Post by: Slipspace


Onething123456 wrote:


Yes, SHUPPET. I as well think my quote from Age of Darkness shows the Crusade had moral boundaries.


"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness


First of all, what have moral boundaries during the Crusade got to do with the Emperor's origin? This seems like yet another random quote disembodied from anything relevant to the discussion at hand.

That being said, your quote doesn't even support the point you made anyway. If anything it shows the lack of moral boundaries during the Crusade. Maybe some Primarchs wouldn't have gone as far as the World Eaters did but the fact they were well known for such savagery is evidence the Emperor was aware of it and most likely didn't care. If total butchery was needed he had a tool to accomplish it, just like if he needed a more surgical strike he had legions like the Luna Wolves.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 08:53:19


Post by: Duskweaver


If you believe that war is generally bad, because it causes death and suffering on a large scale, usually without any good result... but also believe that WW2 needed to be fought because Hitler and the Nazis had to be stopped no matter the cost... then are you a hypocrite?

If the Emperor believed that religion was generally bad, because it tended to feed the Chaos Gods and often resulted in atrocities committed by faith-blinded fanatics... but also felt that seeding the Machine God religion on Mars was necessary to ensure the survival of at least some of humanity's scientific and technological knowledge... then was the Emperor a hypocrite?

Believe it or not, there is a middle ground between 'shameless hypocrite' and 'inflexible ideologue'. I think the Emperor comes across as more of a hypocrite than he really is because he never explains his real reasons for things. People assume he's trying to wipe out religion because he opposes it as a concept, and so see his tolerance (or deliberate creation) of the Machine Cult as hypocrisy, done out of mere political expediency. But if the Emperor has good reason to know that the Machine Cult really is a special case (maybe because a cult centered on a dormant C'tan can't feed Chaos for metaphysical reasons), then it's not actually hypocritical for him to treat it as a special case.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 09:58:59


Post by: Andykp


 Duskweaver wrote:
If you believe that war is generally bad, because it causes death and suffering on a large scale, usually without any good result... but also believe that WW2 needed to be fought because Hitler and the Nazis had to be stopped no matter the cost... then are you a hypocrite?

If the Emperor believed that religion was generally bad, because it tended to feed the Chaos Gods and often resulted in atrocities committed by faith-blinded fanatics... but also felt that seeding the Machine God religion on Mars was necessary to ensure the survival of at least some of humanity's scientific and technological knowledge... then was the Emperor a hypocrite?

Believe it or not, there is a middle ground between 'shameless hypocrite' and 'inflexible ideologue'. I think the Emperor comes across as more of a hypocrite than he really is because he never explains his real reasons for things. People assume he's trying to wipe out religion because he opposes it as a concept, and so see his tolerance (or deliberate creation) of the Machine Cult as hypocrisy, done out of mere political expediency. But if the Emperor has good reason to know that the Machine Cult really is a special case (maybe because a cult centered on a dormant C'tan can't feed Chaos for metaphysical reasons), then it's not actually hypocritical for him to treat it as a special case.



The danger comes, when no matter how just the cause, the human cost is ignored. And in the emperors case the cause was questionable at best. And the cost high in the extreme.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 10:58:17


Post by: SHUPPET


 Duskweaver wrote:
If you believe that war is generally bad, because it causes death and suffering on a large scale, usually without any good result... but also believe that WW2 needed to be fought because Hitler and the Nazis had to be stopped no matter the cost... then are you a hypocrite?

If the Emperor believed that religion was generally bad, because it tended to feed the Chaos Gods and often resulted in atrocities committed by faith-blinded fanatics... but also felt that seeding the Machine God religion on Mars was necessary to ensure the survival of at least some of humanity's scientific and technological knowledge... then was the Emperor a hypocrite?

Believe it or not, there is a middle ground between 'shameless hypocrite' and 'inflexible ideologue'. I think the Emperor comes across as more of a hypocrite than he really is because he never explains his real reasons for things. People assume he's trying to wipe out religion because he opposes it as a concept, and so see his tolerance (or deliberate creation) of the Machine Cult as hypocrisy, done out of mere political expediency. But if the Emperor has good reason to know that the Machine Cult really is a special case (maybe because a cult centered on a dormant C'tan can't feed Chaos for metaphysical reasons), then it's not actually hypocritical for him to treat it as a special case.

That's a really good take on it imo.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 11:03:59


Post by: AegisGrimm


Onething123456 wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
 TheWaspinator wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the Emperor is a false god of sorts cooked up in a lab at some point seems a lot more grimdark than the idea that he really is the super-saviour of mankind from ancient times.


I dunno, it's pretty grimdark to have a god-level psyker who's been around since ancient Sumeria, and all the horrible things like the Dark Age of technology, the Iron Men, and the Heresy STILL happened despite his supposedly awesome foresight.

A god-level psyker who still wasn't as good as a "really good dad" would have been, and now exists as a fragmented batch of insane consciousnesses, who may not actually even be affected by all the sacrifices made to the half-understood pile of tech he's hooked up to.

The Emperor reminds me of the one from the Mistborn trilogy, frankly.








The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he is not omnipotent. So of course he could not stop those things.



And the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he saw no need intervene until the Age of Strife (he intervened as various figures from human history in types of trouble).





What makes 40k grimark is that there is no hope.


Emperor didn't have to be omnipotent, just a decent person. The Heresy happened because he treated most of the Primarchs like trash and had no foresight. (Necessary element of the writing, really. If people like Magnus and several other of the traitors had been treated better, or with any careful oversight, the Heresy probably wouldn't have happened at all). Either theory of the Emperor pretty much places his flaws as one of the most Grimdark parts of the human side of 40k.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 20:34:09


Post by: SHUPPET


lol at "the emperor has no foresight" with a straight face


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 21:14:01


Post by: Onething123456


Spoiler:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
 TheWaspinator wrote:
Honestly, the idea that the Emperor is a false god of sorts cooked up in a lab at some point seems a lot more grimdark than the idea that he really is the super-saviour of mankind from ancient times.


I dunno, it's pretty grimdark to have a god-level psyker who's been around since ancient Sumeria, and all the horrible things like the Dark Age of technology, the Iron Men, and the Heresy STILL happened despite his supposedly awesome foresight.

A god-level psyker who still wasn't as good as a "really good dad" would have been, and now exists as a fragmented batch of insane consciousnesses, who may not actually even be affected by all the sacrifices made to the half-understood pile of tech he's hooked up to.

The Emperor reminds me of the one from the Mistborn trilogy, frankly.








The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he is not omnipotent. So of course he could not stop those things.



And the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader says he saw no need intervene until the Age of Strife (he intervened as various figures from human history in types of trouble).





What makes 40k grimark is that there is no hope.


Emperor didn't have to be omnipotent, just a decent person. The Heresy happened because he treated most of the Primarchs like trash and had no foresight. (Necessary element of the writing, really. If people like Magnus and several other of the traitors had been treated better, or with any careful oversight, the Heresy probably wouldn't have happened at all). Either theory of the Emperor pretty much places his flaws as one of the most Grimdark parts of the human side of 40k.




The Perpetuals are complete proof he was around in our time in current lore. And ignoring the Perpetuals because one hates them is stupid. They are part of the lore.



Either way, ADB wrote Master of Mankind, and his talk with me on Reddit is proof.



And FYI, my quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum implies the Emperor let the Age of Strife happen. No "forsight" my ass.




‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’

‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SHUPPET wrote:
lol at "the emperor has no foresight" with a straight face





I just posted my quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum, again.



And the Perpetuals are complete proof.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 22:31:37


Post by: BrianDavion


Perpetuals are proof that the Emperor was AROUND in some capacity at the time sure, but it's not conclusive proof. How do we know that the Emperor wasn't just some normal perpetual until some DAOT super science project turned him into an uber powerful man?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 22:45:53


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
Perpetuals are proof that the Emperor was AROUND in some capacity at the time sure, but it's not conclusive proof. How do we know that the Emperor wasn't just some normal perpetual until some DAOT super science project turned him into an uber powerful man?




Because he fought a mutant named on Old Earth with his power in Mark of Calth.



https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 23:25:50


Post by: SHUPPET


BrianDavion wrote:
Perpetuals are proof that the Emperor was AROUND in some capacity at the time sure, but it's not conclusive proof. How do we know that the Emperor wasn't just some normal perpetual until some DAOT super science project turned him into an uber powerful man?

Because he kicked the ass of the Void Dragon, a literal C'Tan, back in the time of the ancient aztecs.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 23:27:08


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Perpetuals are proof that the Emperor was AROUND in some capacity at the time sure, but it's not conclusive proof. How do we know that the Emperor wasn't just some normal perpetual until some DAOT super science project turned him into an uber powerful man?

Because he kicked the ass of the Void Dragon, a literal C'Tan, back in the time of the ancient aztecs.




And he fought a mutant named Gog in Mark of Calth.



https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 23:42:13


Post by: Andykp


But we don’t know what happened to him in the DAoT.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 23:57:37


Post by: Onething123456


Andykp wrote:
But we don’t know what happened to him in the DAoT.




Alright. And for 63-19, I disproved that with my quote.


'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/23 23:59:33


Post by: Andykp


U disprove nothing mate. That quote just makes stuff worse. All it does is show off how naive you are. And wrong thread.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:00:24


Post by: SHUPPET


Onething123456 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
But we don’t know what happened to him in the DAoT.




Alright. And for 63-19, I disproved that with my quote.


'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’

While I agree with the premise of your thread, I keep finding that many of the quotes you post don't really support what you are saying at all.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:08:51


Post by: Andykp


I don’t agree or disagree with the OP, I enjoy the not knowing but these quotes are silly. It’s so difficult to argue with someone who supports your argument whilst trying to attack it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:16:38


Post by: SHUPPET


I personally can't understand the logic of thinking he's DAOT tech. For characters in the universe who don't know what we know, sure. For anyone who can check his history pre-DAOT, it's a difficult sell. You know how powerful he had to be to not only beat and contain the void dragon, while knowing that the impact of doing so will allow him to launch a crusade through space 30,000 years in the future? Multiple aspects of that alone kinda disprove the theory. If anything he seems weaker in in the future than he was back then, like getting knocked around by Orcs in that Luna Wolves short story.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:20:23


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
I personally can't understand the logic of thinking he's DAOT tech. For characters in the universe who don't know what we know, sure. For anyone who can check his history pre-DAOT, it's a difficult sell. You know how powerful he had to be to not only beat and contain the void dragon, while knowing that the impact of doing so will allow him to launch a crusade through space 30,000 years in the future? Multiple aspects of that alone kinda disprove the theory. If anything he seems weaker in in the future than he was back then, like getting knocked around by Orcs in that Luna Wolves short story.





Don't forget the Perpetuals.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:20:46


Post by: Andykp


I think the fact that Alan Bligh liked it gives it more weight. He knew his way round a heresy story. I think if he is it was something done to him in the DAoT. He was around before but got a make over. And it maybe did make him weaker. In world it makes complete sense. It would still be better than the perpetual business.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:20:48


Post by: Crimson


 SHUPPET wrote:
I personally can't understand the logic of thinking he's DAOT tech. For characters in the universe who don't know what we know, sure. For anyone who can check his history pre-DAOT, it's a difficult sell. You know how powerful he had to be to not only beat and contain the void dragon, while knowing that the impact of doing so will allow him to launch a crusade through space 30,000 years in the future? Multiple aspects of that alone kinda disprove the theory. If anything he seems weaker in in the future than he was back then, like getting knocked around by Orcs in that Luna Wolves short story.

Sure, if you take that story at face value. It sounds like an utterly ludicrous legend to me, but whatevs; I don't want to start yet another argument about how to interpret 40K lore.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:38:58


Post by: SHUPPET


 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
I personally can't understand the logic of thinking he's DAOT tech. For characters in the universe who don't know what we know, sure. For anyone who can check his history pre-DAOT, it's a difficult sell. You know how powerful he had to be to not only beat and contain the void dragon, while knowing that the impact of doing so will allow him to launch a crusade through space 30,000 years in the future? Multiple aspects of that alone kinda disprove the theory. If anything he seems weaker in in the future than he was back then, like getting knocked around by Orcs in that Luna Wolves short story.

Sure, if you take that story at face value. It sounds like an utterly ludicrous legend to me, but whatevs; I don't want to start yet another argument about how to interpret 40K lore.


Lol based on what? The Void Dragon is locked under Mars, there is literally someone there to guard it and guard the secret fact that the Emperor put it there, as it's a secret that could ruin his relationship with mars and tear the Imperium apart. You can't just pick choose and dismiss lore because you don't like it. "I don't believe in the Horus Heresy in my lore it was all just in Curze's mind!"


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:44:20


Post by: JNAProductions


Who says Big E didn’t have an army to help him do that? Or a legion of psykers?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:48:46


Post by: SHUPPET


 JNAProductions wrote:
Who says Big E didn’t have an army to help him do that? Or a legion of psykers?

The account is from the void dragon's own memory and shows the emperor doing it solo. But let's say the Dragon lied, if the Emperor had an arm,y or a legion of psykers whatever happened to that? And why would they be following him if he was just a regular perpetual? And what is any of that based on, I mean, if you want to dismiss facts because they disprove a theory, then you need to provide some sort of evidence for that being the case, like separate accounts that mention him doing it with a legion of psykers or something. Otherwise it's just saying established lore is wrong, my headcanon is right.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:50:01


Post by: JNAProductions


What book is that from?

And you don’t need to be powerful to get an army, just persuasive.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 00:58:27


Post by: SHUPPET


Mechanicum. It's a good read and is also a pretty important one too, I'd recommend it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:03:26


Post by: Onething123456


 JNAProductions wrote:
What book is that from?

And you don’t need to be powerful to get an army, just persuasive.




https://www.amazon.com/Mechanicum-Horus-Heresy-Graham-McNeill/dp/1849708177


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:09:29


Post by: Crimson


The whole C'tan being shoehorned into the setting and then later retconned is such a mess. And it is not even clear that the Dragon of Mars is C'tan. It is just a thing that is there, (and has been there before establishing of Mechanicus,) which dreams silly fairytales about ancient knights. Dreams rarely have much factual basis, dreams of dragons even less so. Perhaps the knight and the Emperor in the dream are allegories to the humanity, which defeated this being (which might be a C'tan shard) during the dark age of technology and imprisoned it there. Who knows? The Emperor is always pretending that it was just according to keikaku, but he is probably just making it up as he goes along. If he could plan things that far in advance, then the whole heresy wouldn't have happened.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:14:29


Post by: Onething123456


 Crimson wrote:
The whole C'tan being shoehorned into the setting and then later retconned is such a mess. And it is not even clear that the Dragon of Mars is C'tan. It is just a thing that is there, (and has been there before establishing of Mechanicus,) which dreams silly fairytales about ancient knights. Dreams rarely have much factual basis, dreams of dragons even less so. Perhaps the knight and the Emperor in the dream are allegories to the humanity, which defeated this being (which might be a C'tan shard) during the dark age of technology and imprisoned it there. Who knows? The Emperor is always pretending that it was just according to keikaku, but he is probably just making it up as he goes along. If he could plan things that far in advance, then the whole heresy wouldn't have happened.




You still have the Emperor fighting Gog on Old Earth in Mark of Calth. And don't deny the Perpetuals as proof just because you hate them.


And its not a dream, its a memory.



And the Emperor did orchestrate the evolution of the Mechanicus and the Imperium over tens of thousands of years.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:18:34


Post by: Onething123456


Here is the quote from Mark of Calth where the Emperor fights Gog on Old Earth.



Gog serves kings, betrays saints and steals secrets while bearing faces which are also lies. He travels across mountains and oceans and down the long slope of time. He is hunted but never caught. You go with him, never lost even in flight or defeat. Your edge gains notches; your handle becomes black and polished with blood and endless use. At last you reach a broken tower in a rain-shrouded land. Gog wakes from a dream to the sound of thunder and the splash of hooves in mud. He is on his feet even as his eyes snap open. Rain is pouring through the roof of the tower. Time has taken the ragged cloak from his back, and replaced it with scarred leather and black ring-mail. He has a sword in his hand. You wait at his waist, held in a sheath of tanned skin. His eyes dart between holes in the tower’s stone walls. His armour is heavy, sodden and cold against his skin. His breath is ragged. He is afraid. He has never faced an enemy that could harm him; he knows too much, but he can no longer hear the voice of the wind. The storm roars around the tower walls, but it has no voice – its sound is silent to his soul. He calls out, but the wind and shadows remain mute.

He is powerless. A thunderbolt blinks white light through the cracks in the tower walls. Gog can hear the sound of clinking metal even over the drumming of the rain. The tower has only one door, and its wood is rotten. The light of burning torches flickers through the gaps in the door’s planks. Gog screams for the night and storm to aid him, but no answer comes. The rotten door bursts inwards. The dancing light of torches spills into the tower. Gog screams as he lunges at the first figure to come through the door. It is a knight. Polished metal and silver mail cover the man’s muscled body and a closed helm hides his face. Gog’s first strike staggers the knight, and the second glides through the helm’s eye slit. He falls in a clatter of steel. Blood mingles with rain upon the silver of his breastplate. Gog shouts in triumph and fear. A second knight comes through the door and swings a spiked mace. Gog dodges back and snarls. A third knight follows, carrying a broad-headed spear to stand at his comrade’s side. Gog draws you, curling you in his left hand. The knight lunges with his spear. Gog pivots at the last second, and the spear’s tip grazes the mail over his gut. Gog hacks down with his sword, and the knight’s right leg crumples, his head arching up to expose his neck. You stab into a gap between plate, leather and mail. You rip out, scattering blood that looks almost black in the gloom. Thunder rolls overhead. The remaining knight shouts a challenge and spins his mace – beyond the door wait more metal-clad figures, their pitch torches guttering in the storm. Gog knows that his masters have deserted him, that he will die here. He laughs. The knight with the mace brings it up to strike. ‘Hold.’ The voice is not loud but it rises over the shriek of the wind and the hammer of rain. The knight with the mace freezes, and Gog sees his chance. He stabs at the knight’s face, but a sword blade meets Gog’s lunge and turns it aside. Another figure has entered the tower. Gold armour-plates cover the figure from his throat to his feet**.** A cloak of scarlet and orange ripples at his back. He wears no helm, though a crown of silver leaves and golden feathers circles his dark hair above a lean face. The drawn sword in the figure’s hand is flame-touched silver. Gog looks into the crowned figure’s eyes, for a second they are the green of the sea. He knows those eyes, though he has never seen them before. Lightning strikes somewhere close by, and in the eye-blink of brightness the golden figure’s eyes turn liquid black. Only now does Gog hear the wind’s voice again; it is faint, as if it is shouting from a great distance. It is screaming with rage, calling out for blood. Gog shivers. He feels pressure building in his skull. He grips you tighter in his off-hand, and mutters a sound that cracks his teeth. The blood on your blade begins to hiss and steam. Gog’s shadow is crawling across the floor. The rain begins to fall as hail. The crowned figure is utterly still, his face as unforgiving as carven marble. Gog’s sword slashes for him, but the figure meets the blow as the thunder rolls, and Gog’s blade shatters. Sharp fragments of steel spin through the air. Gog turns without pausing – you sweep out towards the crowned figure and your edge scores across the gold. Your tip finds a join between two plates and punches forwards. Gog roars with triumph. In that instant, your point catches on flawless silver ring-mail. The crowned figure speaks a single word that rolls with the thunder’s echo. Gog falls to his knees with a crack of shattering bones. You almost fall from his fingers, as his hands grope at the rain-slick flagstones. The figure looks down at him, drops of rain catching in the chalices, feathers and roses engraved upon the golden armour.

He turns his sword so that it is pointing down at Gog’s neck. You feel Gog’s fingers tighten on your handle. He can still hear the distant screams of the wind – the voices are calling for blood, for an offering, for a final payment in exchange for his unnaturally long life. Gog knows that he has only one last blow to land, and that he must give a death to the voices beyond the shadows. The sword above Gog twitches. You move first, plunging up through Gog’s throat and into his brain. He looks up at the crowned figure with cold, dead eyes and then slumps sideways. The figure lowers his unbloodied blade, as rot spreads across the dead flesh – the delayed ruin of a stretched life coming to claim its due. Gog’s skull begins to crumble around you. Muscle, blood and brain turns to foul jelly. The crowned man watches the body dissolve. His expression is unreadable. He knows that something has been stolen from his victory, but does not know what. After a long moment he turns and walks from the broken tower. A circle of knights wait for him, holding wind-rippled torches. One of the knights bows his head. ‘We will have to wait for the storm to pass before we set the fires, my liege,’says the knight. The crowned figure shakes his head and walks on. A pillar of lightning reaches down from the clouds above and strikes the ruined masonry, thunder mingling with the scream of exploding wood and cracking stone. The knights shield their faces, but they will carry the after-image of the thunderbolt in their eyes for many hours. You feel the touch of the lightning, but it does not break you. You lie serenely in the tower’s ruin, as shattered stone and embers bury you and the storm rolls on in the sky above. Third You sleep beneath the earth. You dream in a bed of ashes. Only poisoned plants grow on the ground above you, and men shun the heap of broken rock that was once a tower. The bone of your handle rots; roots curl around your blade like crooked fingers. Floods spread and drain. Cities rise in wood and stone, and end in fire. Wars churn the ground to mud, and blood soaks down to disturb your fitful slumber. Furnaces and factories darken the sky with smoke: iron and the turning wheel remaking the world. Men discover new truths and forget the old ways. Kingdoms and empires spread and contract. Seas and oceans drain to basins of dust. The heavens are conquered and the gods found to be absent from the firmament
.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:21:36


Post by: SHUPPET


Even if it's not a CTan, which it is, it's still immeasurably powerful sending people to madness just by looking at it, and we saw its memories it used to eat stars, it dominated the Aztecs or whatever as a god, a sliver of its being helped power the amazing tech of the mechanicum, and it took a superhuman to defeat it. On top of that both the Dragon AND the Emperor verify this, and so it's not just "the emperor lying". And why the hell would it be? Why would he lie to one single person just to tell them their job is to keep secret this thing I just told you, knowing it's a lie?

"If he could plan that far in advance the Heresy never would have happened" other than the fact that he sculpted the heresy himself, and he knew about it and much further even when he did take the dragon, hence why it was referenced in the pool of his knowledge taken from that time and given to Dalia? All before the Heresy even happened?

Look, just say you don't like the lore and keep it moving, because unless you have anything to substantiate what you're saying, you're just dismissing what's established with outlandish head canon.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:22:41


Post by: JNAProductions


Why did the Emperor make the Heresy?

Seems... Counter intuitive


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:26:31


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
Even if it's not a CTan, which it is, it's still immeasurably powerful sending people to madness just by looking at it, and we saw its memories it used to eat stars, it dominated the Aztecs or whatever as a god, a sliver of its being helped power the amazing tech of the mechanicum, and it took a superhuman to defeat it. On top of that both the Dragon AND the Emperor verify this, and so it's not just "the emperor lying". And why the hell would it be? Why would he lie to one single person just to tell them their job is to keep secret this thing I just told you, knowing it's a lie?

"If he could plan that far in advance the Heresy never would have happened" other than the fact that he sculpted the heresy himself, and he knew about it and much further even when he did take the dragon, hence why it was referenced in the pool of his knowledge taken from that time and given to Dalia? All before the Heresy even happened?

Look, just say you don't like the lore and keep it moving, because unless you have anything to substantiate what you're saying, you're just dismissing what's established with outlandish head canon.




I am in agreement with you. The Perpetuals are proof of that. Crimson cannot deny it just because he has a hate boner for the Perpetuals and so on.









And SHUPPET, what do you think of the Perpetuals? I love them, and even Perpetual Oll Persson.



Its not possible the Emperor had an army helping him with the Void Dragon.




He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him





https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350



Did you know Crimson literally said that because he hates the Perpetuals that they should be ignored as proof?
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Why did the Emperor make the Heresy?

Seems... Counter intuitive






Not really. Either the Emperor is an idiot, or he planned for everything to happen. And he would make the Heresy probably to feed off of humanity's worship so he can ascend and defeat Chaos.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:28:34


Post by: SHUPPET


Because all other potential futures end with humanities death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@onething I think the perpetuals are an incredibly stupid addition to the lore of 40k, outside of John Grammaticus, which is where it should have started and ended. However, while I hate them, I'm still not going to dismiss obvious lore for the sake of headcanon so that I can to pretend otherwise. They are here, and its unfortunate, but you are right.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 01:31:28


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
Because all other potential futures end with humanities death.






And Mechanicum shows he can see tens of thousands of years into the future. Semyon tells Dalia the Emperor orchestrated everything.


‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’

‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.



And the Perpetuals prove it all. Crimson cannot deny it just because he hates the Perpetuals.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Because all other potential futures end with humanities death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@onething I think the perpetuals are an incredibly stupid addition to the lore of 40k, outside of John Grammaticus, which is where it should have started and ended. However, while I hate them, I'm still not going to dismiss obvious lore for the sake of headcanon so that I can to pretend otherwise. They are here, and its unfortunate, but you are right.




Well, to each his own. I love the Perpetuals, but that is my opinion. And what did you think of the Emperor talking to Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh? You don't like the Perpetuals ( neither do a lot of people), but the quote itself shows the Emperor was orchestrating things for tens of thousands of years. And the Emperor says he and the other Perpetuals were created?


He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him
.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But in all seriousness, the Emperor just said he and the other Perpetuals were created? What does this imply?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 02:08:32


Post by: LumenPraebeo


 SHUPPET wrote:
This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means


There are certain things that we should accept. Like the fact that the Emperor exists/existed. There were 20 Legiones Astartes. Everything in the 40k universe today was a direct or indirecy product/byproduct of The Old Ones. And the strongest warlord in the universe currently is named Bob.

Just because nothing is set in stone, doesn't mean there's no canon. Stop taking words literally. The 40k universe is a story, stories aren't ironclad and constant, and at the same time...its a story, if all persons, places, things, and events you talk about are not clear and you can't talk about with confidence in the universe, then you might as well say nothing at all.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 02:47:01


Post by: Onething123456


Still waiting for a response from SHUPPET. But onto other things, yes. There are certain facts in 40k.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 02:50:12


Post by: SHUPPET


 LumenPraebeo wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means


There are certain things that we should accept. Like the fact that the Emperor exists/existed. There were 20 Legiones Astartes. Everything in the 40k universe today was a direct or indirecy product/byproduct of The Old Ones. And the strongest warlord in the universe currently is named Bob.

Just because nothing is set in stone, doesn't mean there's no canon. Stop taking words literally. The 40k universe is a story, stories aren't ironclad and constant, and at the same time...its a story, if there persons, places, things, and events you can say about this universe, then you might as well say nothing at all.

Ummm I think you responded to the wrong person or misunderstood my intent, because what you said is exactly my perspective, you just articulated it better and I agree with everything you said.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 03:03:03


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
 LumenPraebeo wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
This myth that nothing is canon just because GW retcons is hilarious. People don't understand what canon means


There are certain things that we should accept. Like the fact that the Emperor exists/existed. There were 20 Legiones Astartes. Everything in the 40k universe today was a direct or indirecy product/byproduct of The Old Ones. And the strongest warlord in the universe currently is named Bob.

Just because nothing is set in stone, doesn't mean there's no canon. Stop taking words literally. The 40k universe is a story, stories aren't ironclad and constant, and at the same time...its a story, if there persons, places, things, and events you can say about this universe, then you might as well say nothing at all.

Ummm I think you responded to the wrong person or misunderstood my intent, because what you said is exactly my perspective, you just articulated it better and I agree with everything you said.





So what do you think of Perpetual Oll Persson talking to the Emperor outside of Nineveh as I have quoted and linked? Regardless of not liking the Perpetuals, it shows the Emperor was playing with the galaxy for tens of thousands of years, and Perpetual Oll Persson wanted no part of it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 03:06:06


Post by: SHUPPET


i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 03:11:22


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.




My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:05:03


Post by: Ginjitzu


Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:09:49


Post by: darkcloak


Still this?

How many times do we have to read about who said what about the Emperor?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:11:19


Post by: SHUPPET


 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]

And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:13:22


Post by: Onething123456


 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]




And why the hell would the Emperor do that with the Perpetuals? Very few people even know they exist. That's not possible. Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on.



Ideas that are not possible. But I think you were joking. Probably joking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]

And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.





Its quite well known that Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. And Damon Prytanis assassinated MLK (probably) and (maybe) Robert F. Kennedy. But while we are at it, we can say the Sororitas are prostitutes that secretly worship Slaanesh and have Nurgle dildos.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:21:29


Post by: BrianDavion


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]

And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.



Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:26:10


Post by: SHUPPET


BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]

And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.



Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant

I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:31:02


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]

And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.



Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant

I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.




The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (And I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader), but that's besides the point.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:39:58


Post by: BrianDavion


 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]

And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.



Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant

I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.


Oh I agree, however I've constructed arguments for how the DAOT idea could even work within what we do know.Just to show it's possiable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote:




The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (And I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader), but that's besides the point.


Was that BEFORE or AFTER the half eldar Ultramarine?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 04:51:15


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
i dont really have an opinion broader than what I gave you already man, I don't like the concept of perpetuals but yes sometimes dialogue and interactions can be written well with them involved, of course? its not like i see a perpetual in a story and just start frothing at the mouth





I know. I am mostly curious as the Emperor said he and the other Perpetuals were created? That's I think.



And have a nice night. Its getting late for me. But I can still be here for an hour or more.


Maybe the Omnissiah/Void Dragon is just a massive, buggy AI that confuses ancient fairy tales as it's own memories?

Maybe the Emperor created the perpetuals (just as he created Vulkan) and all of their memories are implanted by him to serve his just as planned?

For that matter, maybe the Emperor was created in a similar way, and all of his origin stories are just fabricated by him to make him seem more important than he is?

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]

And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.



Maybe, and I do tend to agree the Shaman orgin is the "most likely" but as with ANYTHING regarding the Emperor I'd caution anyone about accepting one partiuclar idea as the absolute truth. I really do think that the Emperor's orgin is a incrediably complex one. And trying to declare his orgin story with the information we have? I really do suspect it's like the old story of the blind man trying to describe an elephant

I agree with this, and I'm not trying to declare his origin story as the Shaman one or anything, I don't think we have enough information to firmly say what his origin is at all, and I think that is deliberate. However there is theories we can safely discount with the information we do have.


Oh I agree, however I've constructed arguments for how the DAOT idea could even work within what we do know.Just to show it's possiable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote:




The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (And I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader), but that's besides the point.


Was that BEFORE or AFTER the half eldar Ultramarine?




Technically after, but it was still in the same edition. And don't forget Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. Oh, 1st Edition Rogue Trader, how awesome but silly you are.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 05:39:02


Post by: BrianDavion


yeaaah, I'd caution about relying tooooo heavily on that edition's fluff. It seems pretty clear to me by how purposefully vague GW is being re the Emperor's orgin that we should see that as "not nesscarily true"


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 05:43:54


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
yeaaah, I'd caution about relying tooooo heavily on that edition's fluff. It seems pretty clear to me by how purposefully vague GW is being re the Emperor's orgin that we should see that as "not nesscarily true"




It might nonsense, but its good nonsense.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 06:35:36


Post by: Ginjitzu


SHUPPET wrote:
And maybe the Black Rage has actually just Blood Angels getting manipulated by Alpha Legion sorcerors hidden in their ranks this whole time!

Any of these things could be written in, but until they are there is zero reason to discount established lore over wild fan fiction.


I'm not discounting anything:
 Ginjitzu wrote:

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]


***

Onething123456 wrote:
And why the hell would the Emperor do that with the Perpetuals? Very few people even know they exist. That's not possible. Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on.

Ideas that are not possible. But I think you were joking. Probably joking.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]


***

Onething123456 wrote:
Its quite well known that Perpetual Oll Persson sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. And Damon Prytanis assassinated MLK (probably) and (maybe) Robert F. Kennedy. But while we are at it, we can say the Sororitas are prostitutes that secretly worship Slaanesh and have Nurgle Dildos.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 06:49:59


Post by: SHUPPET


You're discounting established lore that conflicts with that to replace it with your "LEL FUN IDEAS xD". That's fine if you want to do that, but there's probably a better place for your fan fiction than a thread discussing the actual established lore


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 07:14:35


Post by: Ginjitzu


SHUPPET wrote:You're discounting established lore...

 Ginjitzu wrote:

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]


SHUPPET wrote:"LEL FUN IDEAS xD".

Paraphrasing what I said with "LEL," all capitals, "xD," and then putting it in quotation marks is neither honest, fair nor particularly friendly.

SHUPPET wrote:...there's probably a better place for your fan fiction than a thread discussing the actual established lore

That's a fair point, and to be honest, between you and Onething's obstinate defence of "established lore," and the often, and quite frankly, astringent and unfriendly tone of your replies, this thread has lost any potential for fun for me anyway, so I'm sorry for having tried to take part.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 07:45:08


Post by: SHUPPET


Oh yeah because posting the same sentence three times and slowly exaggerating the emphasis on "its a fun idea!" until its bolded in oversized letters was such a friendly way of responding to me disagreeing with the possibility of one of your "fun ideas".

 Ginjitzu wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:You're discounting established lore...

 Ginjitzu wrote:

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]


This is clearly difficult for you, but proposing ideas that conflict with established lore as even a possibility, is what discounting established lore means. E.G. if I said "what if Horus was secretly a Tau ethereal all along and used his pheromones to convince the other legions to join him in the Heresy??? just a fun idea!". Unless there's some reason to discount what we already know, there's no point to fanfiction like "maybe the Void Dragon is just a bugged out AI who invented fairytales of the emperor defeating him!". Then why is the Void dragon trapped beneath mars? Why does the emperor remember doing it too? Why does he have someone posted up to ensure the bonds never slip? Why is he desperately protecting the secret of the truth if it never happened? Why would he risk giving all his knowledge to a stranger who could literally use it to destroy the imperium if it wasn't true? Why was anyone allowed to write a book saying complete opposite to your theory? Why are you getting testy when people tell you that your theories didn't make sense?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 09:51:47


Post by: Ginjitzu


 SHUPPET wrote:
Spoiler:
Oh yeah because posting the same sentence three times and slowly exaggerating the emphasis on "its a fun idea!" until its bolded in oversized letters was such a friendly way of responding to me disagreeing with the possibility of one of your "fun ideas".

 Ginjitzu wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:You're discounting established lore...

 Ginjitzu wrote:

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]


This is clearly difficult for you, but proposing ideas that conflict with established lore as even a possibility, is what discounting established lore means. E.G. if I said "what if Horus was secretly a Tau ethereal all along and used his pheromones to convince the other legions to join him in the Heresy??? just a fun idea!". Unless there's some reason to discount what we already know, there's no point to fanfiction like "maybe the Void Dragon is just a bugged out AI who invented fairytales of the emperor defeating him!". Then why is the Void dragon trapped beneath mars? Why does the emperor remember doing it too? Why does he have someone posted up to ensure the bonds never slip? Why is he desperately protecting the secret of the truth if it never happened? Why would he risk giving all his knowledge to a stranger who could literally use it to destroy the imperium if it wasn't true? Why was anyone allowed to write a book saying complete opposite to your theory? Why are you getting testy when people tell you that your theories didn't make sense?


You're right. I think I was taking your comments too personally. My "fun ideas" were pretty silly. I'm sorry for getting testy, and I apologize for what I said about you and Onetime being unfriendly. It's sometimes difficult to determine the "tone" of a post, when all we have to rely on is text. I'll be more mindful to give the benefit of doubt from now on.

And sorry for derailing the thread. I guess it's pretty fair to say that, all things considered, the Emperor almost certainly isn't from the Dark Age of Technology.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 09:54:53


Post by: SHUPPET


 Ginjitzu wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Spoiler:
Oh yeah because posting the same sentence three times and slowly exaggerating the emphasis on "its a fun idea!" until its bolded in oversized letters was such a friendly way of responding to me disagreeing with the possibility of one of your "fun ideas".

 Ginjitzu wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:You're discounting established lore...

 Ginjitzu wrote:

[Disclaimer: I'm not proposing these as favored theories, just fun ideas.]


This is clearly difficult for you, but proposing ideas that conflict with established lore as even a possibility, is what discounting established lore means. E.G. if I said "what if Horus was secretly a Tau ethereal all along and used his pheromones to convince the other legions to join him in the Heresy??? just a fun idea!". Unless there's some reason to discount what we already know, there's no point to fanfiction like "maybe the Void Dragon is just a bugged out AI who invented fairytales of the emperor defeating him!". Then why is the Void dragon trapped beneath mars? Why does the emperor remember doing it too? Why does he have someone posted up to ensure the bonds never slip? Why is he desperately protecting the secret of the truth if it never happened? Why would he risk giving all his knowledge to a stranger who could literally use it to destroy the imperium if it wasn't true? Why was anyone allowed to write a book saying complete opposite to your theory? Why are you getting testy when people tell you that your theories didn't make sense?


You're right. I think I was taking your comments too personally. My "fun ideas" were pretty silly. I'm sorry for getting testy, and I apologize for what I said about you and Onetime being unfriendly. It's sometimes difficult to determine the "tone" of a post, when all we have to rely on is text. I'll be more mindful to give the benefit of doubt from now on.

Same to you, I just felt like I was responding in kind to a semi snarky post. Nothing wrong with outlandish ideas, but I do feel that when they conflict with what we "know" there should probably be some convincing reason given. Sorry if I was a dick.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 11:55:38


Post by: Crimson


Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 18:10:02


Post by: Onething123456


 Crimson wrote:
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.



Like SHUPPET said, you cannot discount the Perpetuals just because you hate them. They are part of the lore like everything else.



We know the Emperor was around in our time because of Perpetual Oll Persson. To discount him is ignoring lore and bringing your own personal canon.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Who says Big E didn’t have an army to help him do that? Or a legion of psykers?




You really need to educate yourself by reading the book. He did it alone. And he forced the Word Bearers to kneel.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 20:19:19


Post by: Grimtuff


 darkcloak wrote:
Still this?

How many times do we have to read about who said what about the Emperor?


Only when the one true thing is established by the King of Light.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 20:40:46


Post by: Grimskul


 Grimtuff wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Still this?

How many times do we have to read about who said what about the Emperor?


Only when the one true thing is established by the King of Light.


Has it been confirmed that he's him? I noticed that you and Azrael's comments about him being a sockpuppet were deleted. I sense a conspiracy! Show yourself, King of Light!


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 20:49:37


Post by: SHUPPET


 Crimson wrote:
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.

I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 20:58:16


Post by: Crimson


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.

I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.

It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 21:27:08


Post by: Onething123456


 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.

I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.

It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.






Its not a dream, its a memory. Just because you don't fancy the Emperor being over 40,000 years old or the Perpetuals doesn't mean you can just deny it and the Perpetuals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A lot of people have ( ignorant a lot of times) hate boners for the Perpetuals. They are part of the lore. Don't like it? That's alright, but don't deny them.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:05:01


Post by: Andykp


I’m a perpetual denier! (This whole section is getting too silly for me to even visit. U can’t have a discussion here at all.)

And I have never had a “hate boner” in my life. Onething you are a very strange chap and act in an odd way. My take on it is ol person doesn’t prove the emperor isn’t DAoT tech. Because the emperor, a perpetual, could have been assimilated into some DAoT during the DAoT. The reason it dark is we don’t know what happened then. So maybe the emperors consciousness was transmuted into a powerful AI flesh skin and that’s what we have today. Or maybe not. But it’s possible.

It’s also possible the whole thing is a big lie and the emperor is just a little man behind a sheet pulling levers and we should all click our ruby slippers together and go home.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:16:12


Post by: SHUPPET


 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.

I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.

It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.

It's not a dream, it's a memory, one provided from two separate sources (the void dragon first and then the knowledge of the emperor after to confirm it).

The Emperor, one of the galaxy's most powerful beings if not the most powerful, fought one of the last remaining C'Tan, and used the portal he already had to mars, to lock it away safely and at the same time so that it's power would be harnessed into tech developments by the humans on mars, Earth's neighboring planet, so that he could begin his crusade of the galaxy 30,000 years later. I don't think there is anything silly about it, it's cool as hell. But at the very least, it confirms he is one of the most powerful future teller well before the DAOT in the setting to know all that, as well as the heresy, the golden throne, etc, +40,000 years in advance, and that's assuming the memory of two different sources is, somehow, and absurdly implausibly, falsified. I don't even think victory would be possible even with a modern day army of humanity, let alone a medievil at BEST tech level army, not even if he had some unreasonable amount of psykers, which wasn't a thing back then. It really would take someone on the Emp's level of power to defeat a C'Tan at all. Also, he definitely has the power at this stage to make other people night immortal, as the guardian he posted up with the void dragon live for thousands of years, and eventually get sick of their post and pass it to another.

You really have to jump through a lot of highly implausible/impractical hoops to even begin to dismiss this as canon to even start discussing the Emperor being DAOT tech... he just isn't.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:25:45


Post by: BrianDavion


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.

I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.

It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.

It's not a dream, it's a memory, one provided from two separate sources (the void dragon first and then the knowledge of the emperor after to confirm it).

The Emperor, one of the galaxy's most powerful beings if not the most powerful, fought one of the last remaining C'Tan, and used the portal he already had to mars, to lock it away safely and at the same time so that it's power would be harnessed into tech developments by the humans on mars, Earth's neighboring planet, so that he could begin his crusade of the galaxy 30,000 years later. I don't think there is anything silly about it, it's cool as hell. But at the very least, it confirms he is one of the most powerful future teller well before the DAOT in the setting to know all that, as well as the heresy, the golden throne, etc, +40,000 years in advance, and that's assuming the memory of two different sources is, somehow, and absurdly implausibly, falsified. I don't even think victory would be possible even with a modern day army of humanity, let alone a medievil at BEST tech level army, not even if he had some unreasonable amount of psykers, which wasn't a thing back then. It really would take someone on the Emp's level of power to defeat a C'Tan at all. Also, he definitely has the power at this stage to make other people night immortal, as the guardian he posted up with the void dragon live for thousands of years, and eventually get sick of their post and pass it to another.

You really have to jump through a lot of highly implausible/impractical hoops to even begin to dismiss this as canon to even start discussing the Emperor being DAOT tech... he just isn't.


keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:26:02


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


Hey boys and girls, I'm here to discount the perpetuals because they are too silly and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of bubble gum!
Horus Heresy was a mistake!


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:27:48


Post by: SHUPPET


BrianDavion wrote:

keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.

I mean he was already strong enough to defeat a C'Tan so it certainly makes it unlikely, but what is the Malcador comments you are referring to?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:27:58


Post by: Crimson


It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.

As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:35:23


Post by: BrianDavion


 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.

I mean he was already strong enough to defeat a C'Tan so it certainly makes it unlikely, but what is the Malcador comments you are referring to?


"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.

if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:35:30


Post by: SHUPPET


 Crimson wrote:
It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.

tabletop =/= lore . And regardless the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.



 Crimson wrote:
As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.

I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid, but once again, you and I don't write the lore or get to discount things that we do not like. The knowledge he gave to Dalia almost spells out that he knew. Comments made by Malcador almost confirm it. So many more of his actions scream it. If he DID know about it back in BC times, would it be safe to say with power level like that at the time, that he is not DAOT tech?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

keep in mind, that we've not even defined "DAOT tech" Was he a vat grown clone in a Lab? No, we can say with reasonable assurity that he was not, Can we say that his power level was not from a boost given something during the dark age? no we can't. And as I said comments Malcador have said, make me inclined to belive it.

I mean he was already strong enough to defeat a C'Tan so it certainly makes it unlikely, but what is the Malcador comments you are referring to?


"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.

if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?

I think that's reading into it a bit too much, it says nothing of his power level, just that he wasn't yet known as the Emperor. Which makes perfect sense, he wasn't just born into the position he fought hard for it and became the title as soon as he had enough control that he could rightfully claim to bear it without it being absurd. That definitely doesn't disprove what's established at all, though I understand your interpretation, and I think it's one of the better theories I've read in here so far


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:39:20


Post by: Crimson


BrianDavion wrote:

"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.

if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?

This is cool theory that nicely ties together different threads.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:40:18


Post by: Onething123456


 Crimson wrote:
It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.

As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.





How do you explain the quote from Mechanicum where Semyon reveals he could see tens of thousands of years into the future.



And it is a C'tan. In the Forges of Mars series, Telok wanted to take the Void Dragon shard from Mars to power his machine.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:45:52


Post by: Crimson


 SHUPPET wrote:

tabletop =/= lore . And regardless if the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.

There are no whole C'Tans, they were all destroyed aeons before Emperor existed, even if he were tens of thousands of years old. And C'Tan shards are tough, sure, but they're not undefeatable, hit them hard enough and they go down.

I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid, but once again, you and I don't write the lore or get to discount things that we do not like. The knowledge he gave to Dalia almost spells out that he knew. Comments made by Malcador almost confirm it. So many more of his actions scream it. If he DID know about it back in BC times, would it be safe to say with power level like that at the time, that he is not DAOT tech?

Take it as critique of the writing or whatever, but this is idiotic mess of the BL writer's own creation. They first keep hyping the Emperor to such ludicrously cartoony levels that his defeat becomes implausible. Then they have to resort to 'well, he really meant to do that' to fix it. It is a joke, a total corruption of the story of the Horus Heresy as it originally was.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:50:25


Post by: Andykp


Onething123456 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.

As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.





How do you explain the quote from Mechanicum where Semyon reveals he could see tens of thousands of years into the future.



And it is a C'tan. In the Forges of Mars series, Telok wanted to take the Void Dragon shard from Mars to power his machine.


We’ve been through this. Another character saying he can do something means nothing. It’s just proves what one person said to another. Not that he def has these powers.

As for the void dragon you called it a c’tan and a shard in one sentence. If it’s a C’tan fully it is so stupid that the emperor could beat it up on a horse. They are stars and battered old ones. They were gods. If it’s a shard then it’s no big deal.

And end of the day we don’t know anything. We hear a lot of stories but as for knowing we have done that argument to death. I trust in what GW says. And it says we don’t know.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:53:04


Post by: SHUPPET


 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

tabletop =/= lore . And regardless if the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.

There are no whole C'Tan's, they were all destroyed aeons before Emperor existed, even if he were tens of thousands of years old. And C'Tan shards are tough, sure, but they're not undefeatable, hit them hard enough and they go down.

the info we have on the void dragon from all sources including the Cron dexes suggests that it is the last surviving C'Tan that "remained whole through the eons and its essence was never captured within the Necrons' Tesseract Labyrinths". I wouldn't dismiss the likelihood of this being the case, whether or not it's the Dragon of Mars is unconfirmed but everything points towards it. I'll admit that this is a little shaky as it currently is (though similar to the Emperor's origin I don't think they ever intend to fully elaborate on this), if you will admit that the Dragon of Mars is not just some regular old C'Tan shard lol. Have you read Mechanicum?

 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid, but once again, you and I don't write the lore or get to discount things that we do not like. The knowledge he gave to Dalia almost spells out that he knew. Comments made by Malcador almost confirm it. So many more of his actions scream it. If he DID know about it back in BC times, would it be safe to say with power level like that at the time, that he is not DAOT tech?

Take it as critique of the writing or whatever, but this is idiotic mess of the BL writer's own creation. They first keep hyping the Emperor to such ludicrously cartoony levels that his defeat becomes implausible. Then they have to resort to 'well, he really meant to do that' to fix it. It is a joke, a total corruption of the story of the Horus Heresy as it originally was.

Fair enough, I can understand disliking a change of direction to the lore. I was vaguely familiar with the lore from White Dwarf and codexes, it wasn't till the Horus Heresy started expanding it that I started following it, so for me, the current state of the lore is more or less how it's always been, so I'm in no position to disagree with you on this, and I definitely feel a similar way about other franchises I've been invested in. The last Star Wars and last Alien films jump to mind.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 22:53:10


Post by: Onething123456


Andykp wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.

As for Emperor being able to foresee the Heresy, please no! That is just painfully stupid and makes the whole sordid affair completely pointless.





How do you explain the quote from Mechanicum where Semyon reveals he could see tens of thousands of years into the future.



And it is a C'tan. In the Forges of Mars series, Telok wanted to take the Void Dragon shard from Mars to power his machine.


We’ve been through this. Another character saying he can do something means nothing. It’s just proves what one person said to another. Not that he def has these powers.

As for the void dragon you called it a c’tan and a shard in one sentence. If it’s a C’tan fully it is so stupid that the emperor could beat it up on a horse. They are stars and battered old ones. They were gods. If it’s a shard then it’s no big deal.

And end of the day we don’t know anything. We hear a lot of stories but as for knowing we have done that argument to death. I trust in what GW says. And it says we don’t know.




‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’

‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.




The quote is pretty unequivocal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

"I knew the Emperor before he became the emperor. Before meeting me he was mearly one of the more sucessful warlords on Terra" or some such thing.This implies that until the Emperor met Malcador he at the very least may not have had a grand lofty idea for an Imperium. Also Malcador is the last of the sigilaites. who where a order of people dedicated to perserving the lost history of humanity etc, I think it's implied they where all psykers but I'll have to take a listen again. still, if so this poses an intreasting idea. what if the emperor was "mearly" a alpha level psyker and perpetual, but when he met the order of the Sigialites they decided to sacrifice themselves to empower the emperor (the Shaman orgin with a twist) but Malchador was asked to remain out (I thiiiink he was said to be the youngest of their order) to act as an advisor.

if this is true, it would make the "DAOT experment" AND the shaman theory, AND the "born in ancient Turkey" all true, at the same time. whiiich would be a clever way to do it yes?

This is cool theory that nicely ties together different threads.





I'm interested, I'll give you that. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was published. And what about Molech? Add that.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 23:11:06


Post by: Irbis


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is not even confirmed it was a C'Tan. and if it was, then it was just a shard. Those get krumped on the tabletop every day, they're not that tough.

tabletop =/= lore . And regardless the Void Dragon is not a shard, not a single shard of the Void Dragon has been encountered, if he IS a shard he's the largest ever in existence, but it's almost definite that he is whole C'Tan.

If he was, the Emperor wouldn't even blink before being disintegrated with the whole planet. That's why I always thought the story was stupid and the shard bit saved it - 'whole' C'tan eats stars for breakfast and a group of them was able to fight civilization full of Emperor level psykers that was unimaginably more advanced than any race in 40K to a standstill. If Emperor could defeat such a thing, he would have simply sneezed and vaporized Horus with his battle barge as an afterthought instead of going mano a mano with him...

I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid

Okay, pray tell then why he allowed for everything he built for millennia to be ruined instead of saying "Valdor? Grab these bandaids and acne cream and deliver them to Horus. He could use some real soon. Oh, kill any Word Bearers you see there. Then do move your ass to Prospero and scream "I MEANT IT YOU IMBECILE, STOP RIGHT THERE" before ordering Thousand Sons to go do something useful like making Angron ex-parrot before he really ruins what used to be pretty nice Legion, will ya?"


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/24 23:19:00


Post by: Onething123456


Glutted on the life force of the Necrontyr, the empowered C'tan were near unstoppable and unleashed forces beyond comprehension. Planets were razed, suns extinguished and whole systems devoured by black holes called into being by the reality-warping powers of the star gods. - Necron Codex, 8th Edition, page 9.


Full C'tan can do this as page 9 in the 8th Edition Necron Codex says. Page 9. Create black holes and destroy solar systems on page 9.

"In the centre of the debris cloud rose a burning ember, a mote of fire ascending from the darkness. It gathered matter and light into itself like a black hole pulling at the surface of Borsis. Hyalhi let the image of it burn into his brain, sinking in deep, because this would have to be remembered too.The being that formed in the centre of the zone of destruction hovered above the tallest spire, and its body was composed of darkness. It had no fixed shape, its only definite feature the crescent of three eyes that burned in its heart. Tendrils of it, composed of torn and compacted metal, dragged it along above the spires. Hyalhi did not have to picture the geography of Borsis to know where it was headed.What followed had to be remembered as well. Hyalhi turned his consciousness this time outside his body, riding the ripples growing in the warp from the impact of the being erupting from its prison. He could see Borsis unfolding beneath him, the endless steel canyons and metal spires rushing past. The Astral Knights had fought across much of the planet's surface but now he saw, from his high psychic vantage point, great palaces and monuments the Astral Knights had not seen. It was the work of endless millennia, the labour of countless scarabs and worker-constructs devoted to deifying their nobles.The entity roared up ahead, shredding the spiretops as it passed and absorbing the fragments of matter that flew up into its swirling mass. Limbs formed and reformed as it hauled itself along, and pulses of raw, alien hatred battered against the surface of Hyalhi's mind. It was not a human emotion, for there was nothing human about this being, but it was unmistakably hatred.The entity crossed into the Labyrinth Wastes. It passed over columns of warrior-constructs arriving to join the final stages of the battle, and those that could feel dismay felt it now as the great darkness bellowed and stormed overhead.(...)Silver and gold glittered as Overlord Heqiroth and his lychguard retinue arrived on the battlements. The darkness bore over them as the moon that passed closest to it was torn apart and absorbed into its body. Heqiroth took one look at the approaching entity and the silvery necrodermis swarmed over his body in a protective shroud.An arm of compacted debris swept the lychguard off the wall. They tumbled down the side of the cathedral along with tonnes of shattered battlement. The darkness loomed closer and the necrodermis squirmed off Heqiroth's body as if of its own accord, drawn off in ductile streamers into the swirling blackness.The entity wove the necrodermis around it into the form of the star-god the necrons had first beseeched, then worshipped, then destroyed. Even this single shard of it was terrifying to see taking shape – it was like a deity of destruction and calamity from some long-forgotten human religion, crowned with three burning eyes, its enormous form clad in liquid metal.Hyalhi did not know the necron language in which Heqiroth spoke to Yggra'nya the Worldmaker, the C'tan imprisoned in the heart of Borsis to power it and guide it towards Mars. It was not a tongue that even needed sound, transmitted in pure information. But Hyalhi could guess it involved pleading, perhaps bargaining, Heqiroth offering lordship of Borsis, every necron under his command, everything he could possibly give in return for being permitted to continue existing.And Hyalhi knew the reply, too. "You betrayed us", Yggra'nya would be saying. "You imprisoned us. You enslaved us to this mad plan to journey to Mars."Heqiroth held up the tesseract in which he had imprisoned and then recaptured Turakhin, no doubt trying to persuade the C'tan that its enslavement had been Turakhin's doing. Yggra'nya snatched the tesseract and it dissolved in its hand, consumed by a purple-black fire, and with it the last glimmer of Turakhin's existence. But it was not enough."You, Turakhin, all that came before, you are all the same." Hyalhi could almost hear the star-god's words and their meaning could not be in doubt. "The whole necron race is our enemy. Now I am free, and you will all be punished."It gave Hyalhi some measure of satisfaction to see Overlord Heqiroth lifted off the battlements and dissected, piece by piece, by the will of Yggra'nya. Each section peeled and lifted away, gradually reducing the overlord to a spindly metal skeleton that squirmed in pain, if necrons could feel it. That, too, was dissolved away until only a glimmering speck of consciousness sat in Yggra'nya's palm. Then the C'tan closed its fist and Heqiroth, too, was annihilated.Yggra'nya raised its arms as if making a sacred pronouncement. The substance of the Cathedral of the Seven Moons came apart and reformed above it, an endless torrent of shattered metal forming great rings that orbited the star-god. Then they became gigantic blades that Yggra'nya stabbed into the surface of Borsis, driving them deep down through the crust of the world it had once built in an earlier age of the galaxy.Yggra'nya dived into the fissure it had opened up. Hyalhi could feel it ripping through the planet, dissolving everything in front of it like a blowtorch through flesh. It tore through the vast power sources that drove Borsis, through the chambers where warrior-constructs were assembled and repaired, through the necropoli of long-forgotten dynasties and the vaults full of war machines and spacecraft. It shrieked through the core of the planet and looped around again, riddling Borsis with molten destruction in its rage.The sky changed from a grey mantle of cloud to a patchwork of light and dark as the cover was blown away. Hyalhi knew what that meant. With the destruction of the generators and reactors at Borsis's core, the shielding around the planet was failing. Whereas before Borsis had been impervious to the torpedoes and lance batteries of the Varv Deliverance Fleet, now its surface was laid bare and open. Hyalhi realised he had been holding his breath, for now he breathed it out in relief.(...)Yggra'nya hovered there, its three eyes turned down towards Hyalhi. There was no doubt the star-god could see Hyalhi. He was the last Astral Knight left on Borsis. Perhaps Yggra'nya wanted to pay its respects, though Hyalhi doubted it.Hyalhi looked up into those burning eyes. Men would have gone mad to see it, but Hyalhi was not afraid.'We will find you!' yelled Hyalhi at the star-god. If it heard him, it gave no reply. It simply shot up into space, the silver streak of its body vanishing into the void.

C'tan Shard of Yggra’nya breaking apart moons and reforming them into blades that rip through the World Engine, which was invulnerable to the torpedoes and lance batteries of the Varv Deliverance Fleet (a sector Imperial fleet). Then the C'tan shard shot up into space.


https://www.amazon.com/World-Engine-Space-Marine-Battles/dp/1784961698


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 00:01:18


Post by: SHUPPET


 Irbis wrote:

I actually think it makes far more sense and him not being able to foresee the Heresy and he just blundered into it is pants on head stupid

Okay, pray tell then why he allowed for everything he built for millennia to be ruined instead of saying "Valdor? Grab these bandaids and acne cream and deliver them to Horus. He could use some real soon. Oh, kill any Word Bearers you see there. Then do move your ass to Prospero and scream "I MEANT IT YOU IMBECILE, STOP RIGHT THERE" before ordering Thousand Sons to go do something useful like making Angron ex-parrot before he really ruins what used to be pretty nice Legion, will ya?"

It's a good question, and the answer to be: because any other outcome results in the death of humanity. We know how Chaos "works", so to speak. Any future where Imperium takes over the entire galaxy, is a galaxy full of fuel for the Chaos gods who will become unstoppable forces and result in the death or corruption of the whole of humanity. And any future where the Imperium loses, well that speaks for itself. This is the logical outcome of both these scenarios, we've had it outright told to us in the lore by future-tellers, but just knowing how Chaos works is enough to be aware that yes, this makes perfect sense, and both outcomes here result in the death of humanity. In fact these two futures were both so likely that the combined races of the galaxy including the Eldar, could forsee no other possibility. The Emperor however foresaw "the narrowest path to humanity's survival" - and his vision for humanity is referred to as exactly this many times in the lore. The first two outcomes obviously being the broader ones that could happen a number of different ways, the narrow one is a very select bunch of circumstances to create a balance between both Chaos and humanity that becomes a stalemate, leaving humanity perpetually at war with Chaos, but leaving humanity perpetually alive at the same time. The Emperor spreading through the stars as much as he could, creating a great empire to be torn asunder, leaving both sides tools of more or less equal strength. Doing even one of the things you just mentioned, without it being equally offset in another manner (this concept is touched upon on "The Board is Set"), would condemn humanity to a slow death at the hands of Chaos. It was up to him to sculpt the Heresy as best he could, which may give you understanding of many of the decisions he made that many people find questionable, like why he referred to his sons by numbers when they weren't around, why he couldn't care about truly for any of them and had to see them all as tools as supported by Guilliman's interaction with him, but yet still treated some with love and some quite poorly, why upon meeting the young Perturabo his facade slipped for a while and Perturabo saw deep sadness on the Emperor's face when he asked about his future, etc, that's just off the top of my head, why he didn't foresee or stop ANY of the clusterfeths that caused the Heresy as you mentioned when, and actually seemed to actively contribute to some - there's a bunch of stuff like this.

The Horus Heresy books give us insight into this goal at multiple points during their run, but reading them I almost feel it's a little heavy handed, with every second book dropping some sort of subliminal at it, but I guess it's necessary for world building. I personally like it, and I think it's the most grimdark setting of all for the Chaos war - you can NEVER win, or you lose. You can only try to make the best of it while dealing with the rest of the galaxy at the same time.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 00:14:10


Post by: Crimson


Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 00:17:36


Post by: SHUPPET


 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they definitely seem to have written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike it, may also seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and attack your beliefs with insults over a disagreement on the lore.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 00:25:20


Post by: Crimson


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 00:34:43


Post by: SHUPPET


 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

OH my bad, I understand what you meant now, I thought you were saying I was immeasurably stupid for thinking that, I guess I should have realised you were talking about the writing itself. I can understand disliking it. I guess you are right, it does impact the drama to some extent - especially given events in Plague Wars, that I'm not sure I should post here because I don't want to spoil anything - but just remember while it seems he tried to shape the Heresy as best he can, I don't think it went exactly as planned, and there was multiple outcomes that could have happened to achieve his balance, and he definitely had back-up plans in place like Magnus etc, and that similar sort of variation can continue to happen anywhere - or he can fail to achieve his goal, there is far more working against the Imperium now than ever was back then. So you are kinda right, but lets be real - we know Chaos was never going to defeat the Imperium or vice versa, it's a game setting and that will never happen. Everything else is still in the air, like which characters will die even major ones, which legions get decimated, even humanity might end up with it's ass kicked back all the way to Mars before the settings done for all we know. I wouldn't let it ruin the setting for you, even if it does cheapen the Heresy to some extent. I personally like it, but again I'm in no place to say so as I wasn't into the lore much before the HH books, and it's all kinda subjective anyway.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 00:42:18


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.


I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 01:05:55


Post by: SHUPPET


BrianDavion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.


I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.


Appreciated. That's a cool explanation of his future telling. It also fits well with the metaphor of the "narrow path of survival" that he is often described as "steering" and "guiding" humanity through.

The Heresy being sped up from what Emps wanted is also supported by The Cabal, they knew of the Heresy well in advance (another thing that almost guarantees that Emps did too even without other confirmation), but they then had to rush their approach to the Alpha Legion by like a decade because some unforseen influence of Chaos had sped it up. I'm not sure if it's ever hinted at what this particular thing was that sped up the coming of the Heresy, or if it just sailed over my head while reading. Any ideas?

Interesting opinion on Magnus wrecking the Golden throne being the major divergence that he had to steer back on course from. During the council of Nikea, it was very much expressed that the Emperor did NOT want to be doing this, and that played a direct hand in what came next, so you may very well be right. However, I imagine there was numerous ways it could have gone, and that the Emperor always included for himself to be taken out of the picture in some manner (the plan falls apart if he is still around and fighting, loyal primarchs would just be like "uhhhhh... we are we out here fighting our ass off in this war that you are not helping us win?", hence why he basically fed himself to Horus before evaporating him), and that Magnus's role was as a back-up for the Throne in case one of these paths involved the Emperor's death. Read "The Board is Set", it explains that there is a BUNCH of ways it could have played out once we got to that point - the board WAS set, and every involved player's (Emps, each of the Chaos Gods, Cabal, anyone else who had knowledge of the coming Heresy and the influence to affect it) goal at that point was just to play for the best possible outcome for themselves.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 01:32:43


Post by: Irbis


BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 01:40:29


Post by: SHUPPET


 Irbis wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...

Exactly, the civil war wasn't to see them killed, it was to see them fighting each other, MAJOR difference.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 01:45:02


Post by: agurus1


 Irbis wrote:

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...


I have to say this is assuming that the Emperor thought humanity could survive if they WON the civil war, I think what other posters are saying is that the Emperor only saw humanities survival if the civil war essentially never ended, as is basically has. The fact that the Cabal saw humanity being destroyed if Horus won OR lost basically reinforces this idea. Sometimes you can't play to win, you can just make sure the other guy doesn't win either. If survival of the species is the sole goal then so far so good.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 03:10:10


Post by: BrianDavion


 Irbis wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...


I'm not saying it's canon that it was indeed the PLAN Irbis, just that "the emperor deliberatly took steps to provoke a civil war among the primarichs" is something that ahs been outright said to be the case. weather or not Malchador was telling the truth or simply bullshitting someone so they died content, is not known, but it's an idea that has been floated in the stories.

In other words this isn't just some fan theory with nothing to back it up


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 04:43:04


Post by: Voss


 SHUPPET wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.


I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.


Appreciated. That's a cool explanation of his future telling. It also fits well with the metaphor of the "narrow path of survival" that he is often described as "steering" and "guiding" humanity through.

That's... less a metaphor and more just a bit they copied directly from Dune... the God-Emperor as his 'Golden Path.'

Much like the war against thinking machines. And the original concept of space marines, as drug addicted hardened survivors psychopaths with hard wired mental programming (aping the Sardaukar)


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 04:49:13


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.


I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.





He can protect some souls, like when he resurrected Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 04:55:36


Post by: BrianDavion


Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.


I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.





He can protect some souls, like when he resurrected Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot.


what he can do in 40k after his assencion to the golden throne and ten thousand years of worship, and what he can do as a physical flesh and blood man are likely VERY differant things


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 05:15:20


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.


I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.





He can protect some souls, like when he resurrected Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot.


what he can do in 40k after his assencion to the golden throne and ten thousand years of worship, and what he can do as a physical flesh and blood man are likely VERY differant things





He forced the Word Bearers to kneel.


Sight returned, banishing the grotesque feeling of helplessness. Such emotion was anathema, prickling at Argel Tal’s skin with a thousand insect legs. He managed to look through his dimmed visor, seeing a towering figure deep in a corona of agonising white light. Around the figure, cloaked and gold-armoured warriors hefted unique spears with practiced ease. Each one was the size of an Astartes, and no Astartes could fail to recognise them.

‘Custodes,’ he managed to speak through teeth gritted at the light’s intensity.

‘It’s…’ Xaphen stammered. ‘It’s the…’

‘I know who it is,’ Argel Tal exhaled the words through clenched teeth. And that’s when the voice hit him, hit them all, in a wave of invisible force.

+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it.


One hundred thousand Word Bearers kneeled in the dust of the perfect city, rendered prone by Imperial decree. A Legion was on its knees
.




And here.


"+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy
, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

'You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.'

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

'You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.'

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn't discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,' he said."






This is by no means the best psychic feat in 40k, but its an example.




And he granted his power and immortality to the guardians of the Void Dragon in Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum.


Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.



My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 06:09:06


Post by: BrianDavion


utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 07:46:14


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.




The Emperor can only protect some souls.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 08:06:55


Post by: Aelyn


Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.


The Emperor can only protect some souls.

Wait, are you agreeing with him or disagreeing? Because the content of your posts is either irrelevant to, or supportive of, the point he is making, but the tone you're using makes it sound like you disagree.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 08:29:26


Post by: Slipspace


Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]



Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 14:00:58


Post by: Grimskul


Slipspace wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]



Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?


I'm not sure if its worth replying to him at this point to be honest. I've certainly tried, as have many others including yourself. He seems to cherry pick who he replies to and if he's finally backed into a corner like in the last locked thread he goes into full chatroom mode and says he's going to go outside, watch a movie or try to buy 1st edition Rogue Trader for some bizarre reason. The threads hes started have continued in spite of him, since he himself doesn't seem interested in any discussion beyond having people agree with him. He spammed several PM's to me about these random quote blocks before he got the hint I wasn't interested/was confused.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 16:56:41


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.




I thought you were implying something. Sorry about that.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 17:59:35


Post by: YeOldSaltPotato


 Irbis wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...


It's been a while, but weren't the Villas intended to be for the primarchs as they grew up on earth, you before the whole 'whoops dropped 20 babies' incident?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 20:47:44


Post by: SHUPPET


Grimskul wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]



Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?


I'm not sure if its worth replying to him at this point to be honest. I've certainly tried, as have many others including yourself. He seems to cherry pick who he replies to and if he's finally backed into a corner like in the last locked thread he goes into full chatroom mode and says he's going to go outside, watch a movie or try to buy 1st edition Rogue Trader for some bizarre reason. The threads hes started have continued in spite of him, since he himself doesn't seem interested in any discussion beyond having people agree with him. He spammed several PM's to me about these random quote blocks before he got the hint I wasn't interested/was confused.

There's other people in the thread. If you don't want to interact with one of them, nobody is forcing you to. Discussion is good regardless.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/25 21:37:19


Post by: Grimskul


 SHUPPET wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]



Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?


I'm not sure if its worth replying to him at this point to be honest. I've certainly tried, as have many others including yourself. He seems to cherry pick who he replies to and if he's finally backed into a corner like in the last locked thread he goes into full chatroom mode and says he's going to go outside, watch a movie or try to buy 1st edition Rogue Trader for some bizarre reason. The threads hes started have continued in spite of him, since he himself doesn't seem interested in any discussion beyond having people agree with him. He spammed several PM's to me about these random quote blocks before he got the hint I wasn't interested/was confused.

There's other people in the thread. If you don't want to interact with one of them, nobody is forcing you to. Discussion is good regardless.


You notice that I already said that right? That the threads go on in spite of the OP, rather than because of him. The main reason why I brought him up is that he periodically comes back and breaks the flow of the discussion by randomly quote dumping and repeating the same inane statements, even though it often has nothing to do with the current debate. His treatment of the forum as a chatroom disrupts a lot of the interesting ideas that are brought up, and I don't see how that's productive.

Worst case scenario, you don't have to interact with me either if I'm bothering you somehow.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/28 22:15:49


Post by: Onething123456


 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.




The Emperor is either an idiot, or he planned for the Heresy. BTW, The Horus Heresy books are badly written a lot of times, so the Emperor's stupid moves can be blamed for crappy writing.



How do you explain my quote from Mechanicum showing the Emperor can see tens of thousands of years into the future?




‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.



Semyon is a Guardian of the Void Dragon who was granted a sliver of the Emperor's power and immortality.



Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.



And don't deny the Perpetuals just because you hate them. I fail to see what is so stupid about the Perpetuals. Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once squishy mortals.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Shuppet, you asked why people would still doubt Emp's pre-DAOT origin after the dragon story. People provided some ideas how holes could be poked in that story. Whilst such ideas are quite implausible (and silly, but so is the dragon story) I think they well with the general spirit of the overall narrative, i.e. the Emperor's origin being a mystery.

I don't think the Void Dragon story is at all silly. Regardless, even if it was, one is written, published, established, built on, and woven through the lore, and one is a theory that doesn't make sense. Let's try to have some sort of objectivity here instead of just denying things because you don't like them.

It is pretty damn silly if you take it literally. Emperor being some knight who fought with a literal dragon in dark ages and then teleported on Mars. Literal retelling of St. George's legend. Does the Emperor fight the Loch Ness monster next? If the dream is some allegory (as dreams can be) then it is a bit less silly, even if it was an allegory about confrontation with the Emperor. And it is really not woven into much, it is just one obscure book, sure the thing being on Mars is alluded elsewhere, but not how it got there.

It's not a dream, it's a memory, one provided from two separate sources (the void dragon first and then the knowledge of the emperor after to confirm it).

The Emperor, one of the galaxy's most powerful beings if not the most powerful, fought one of the last remaining C'Tan, and used the portal he already had to mars, to lock it away safely and at the same time so that it's power would be harnessed into tech developments by the humans on mars, Earth's neighboring planet, so that he could begin his crusade of the galaxy 30,000 years later. I don't think there is anything silly about it, it's cool as hell. But at the very least, it confirms he is one of the most powerful future teller well before the DAOT in the setting to know all that, as well as the heresy, the golden throne, etc, +40,000 years in advance, and that's assuming the memory of two different sources is, somehow, and absurdly implausibly, falsified. I don't even think victory would be possible even with a modern day army of humanity, let alone a medievil at BEST tech level army, not even if he had some unreasonable amount of psykers, which wasn't a thing back then. It really would take someone on the Emp's level of power to defeat a C'Tan at all. Also, he definitely has the power at this stage to make other people night immortal, as the guardian he posted up with the void dragon live for thousands of years, and eventually get sick of their post and pass it to another.

You really have to jump through a lot of highly implausible/impractical hoops to even begin to dismiss this as canon to even start discussing the Emperor being DAOT tech... he just isn't.





SHUPPET, is there really any debate about the Emperor being DAOT tech? My talk with ADB confirms he is not when ADB said in my talk with him we can safely say he is not DAOT. There is no debate there.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/28 22:25:45


Post by: JNAProductions


Did you really feel the need to PM me a rant and more quotes?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/28 22:27:45


Post by: Onething123456


Andykp wrote:
I’m a perpetual denier! (This whole section is getting too silly for me to even visit. U can’t have a discussion here at all.)

And I have never had a “hate boner” in my life. Onething you are a very strange chap and act in an odd way. My take on it is ol person doesn’t prove the emperor isn’t DAoT tech. Because the emperor, a perpetual, could have been assimilated into some DAoT during the DAoT. The reason it dark is we don’t know what happened then. So maybe the emperors consciousness was transmuted into a powerful AI flesh skin and that’s what we have today. Or maybe not. But it’s possible.

It’s also possible the whole thing is a big lie and the emperor is just a little man behind a sheet pulling levers and we should all click our ruby slippers together and go home.




I don't know if you are lazy in writing, but you could at least spell his name correctly. Perpetual Oll Persson. I'm not trying to be an asswhole or anything. I'm just saying to not be lazy in typing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you really feel the need to PM me a rant and more quotes?




My mistake. I got carried away. I should not have said that. Sorry about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Still this?

How many times do we have to read about who said what about the Emperor?


Only when the one true thing is established by the King of Light.


Has it been confirmed that he's him? I noticed that you and Azrael's comments about him being a sockpuppet were deleted. I sense a conspiracy! Show yourself, King of Light!




I don't even know who that is. I am not this King of Light.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 02:26:26


Post by: insaniak


Onething123456 wrote:

I don't know if you are lazy in writing, but you could at least spell his name correctly. Perpetual Oll Persson. I'm not trying to be an asswhole or anything. I'm just saying to not be lazy in typing.

Three things:
1: The character's name is not 'Perpetual Oll Persson'. It's just 'Oll Persson'.

2: It's not up to you to correct other posters' writing. So long as they're sticking within the bounds of what is acceptable within forum rules, if other people don't adhere to the standard that you personally deem appropriate, you're just going to have to get over it.

And 3:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you really feel the need to PM me a rant and more quotes?

My mistake. I got carried away. I should not have said that. Sorry about that.

You have been specifically told to stop doing this. Confine your posting to the forum, and stop sending people unsolicited PMs to try to continue arguments from threads.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 16:25:56


Post by: FabricatorGeneralMike


Onething123456 wrote:
My talk with ADB on Reddit shows him saying we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. So I do not know why people keep saying the Emperor might be DAOT tech. And I am not going to be hostile in this thread, I am just saying that the Emperor is "safely" not DAOT tech going by my talk with ADB on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3



Yeah, I read that little interaction with ADB there, you really don't get subtly or sarcasm do you?

I bet if 'THE PLOT" and model sales decided that the Emperor was a relic of Golden Age of Technology ( Heathen it was a GOLDEN AGE not a Dark Age only ignorance since that time has lead to this 'myth' of it being a dark age ) he would be a relic of the Golden Age of Technology.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 17:42:03


Post by: Andykp


His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 21:23:17


Post by: bogalubov


Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


I'm getting too Oll Persson for this gak.

My take on the arc of the Heresy books is that they started in one place in Horus Rising and then to keep things interesting they've added more intrigue about the Emperor and his plans. In the early books the interesting theme was how the legionnaires are all shocked that this is happening as brother turns against brother. The future was bright and then things took an unexpected turn for the worse. So in the early books they lament the 20 retirement community buildings on Terra that will go unused.

Then the twist in the mid-books is that Lorgar has planned this whole thing out from 50 years before a shot is fired. Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron have outsmarted the Emperor and the whole thing was busted way before it actually broke.

So then to keep the audience interested the latest twist is that the Emperor foresaw the turn and has engineered it as the only possible salvation for humanity. The twists in the narrative will leave some holes in the plot though. Before I get the Mechanicum quote posted at me, I do realize that Mechanicum was early in the series and shows E's powers of foresight. The book didn't hint that he saw the Heresy though.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 21:29:49


Post by: BrianDavion


Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


a man whose last name was Pius isn't any more creative in the context the story was told Andy. And chances are Oll is just short of Ollanius. so.. yeah the only change is his surname


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 21:41:31


Post by: SHUPPET


bogalubov wrote:
Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


I'm getting too Oll Persson for this gak.

My take on the arc of the Heresy books is that they started in one place in Horus Rising and then to keep things interesting they've added more intrigue about the Emperor and his plans. In the early books the interesting theme was how the legionnaires are all shocked that this is happening as brother turns against brother. The future was bright and then things took an unexpected turn for the worse. So in the early books they lament the 20 retirement community buildings on Terra that will go unused.

Then the twist in the mid-books is that Lorgar has planned this whole thing out from 50 years before a shot is fired. Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron have outsmarted the Emperor and the whole thing was busted way before it actually broke.

So then to keep the audience interested the latest twist is that the Emperor foresaw the turn and has engineered it as the only possible salvation for humanity. The twists in the narrative will leave some holes in the plot though. Before I get the Mechanicum quote posted at me, I do realize that Mechanicum was early in the series and shows E's powers of foresight. The book didn't hint that he saw the Heresy though.

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 22:08:34


Post by: bogalubov


 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/29 22:13:13


Post by: Andykp


BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


a man whose last name was Pius isn't any more creative in the context the story was told Andy. And chances are Oll is just short of Ollanius. so.. yeah the only change is his surname


That’s kind of the point of him, he prob wasn’t called that at all but it sounds a great name for a saint and the story has gotten embellished over the years to inspire the common fighting man, same as the stalinists did in Ww2 Russia (and everyone else). What he wasn’t was a crude plot device shoehorned into a setting from nowhere. I know in setting most people wouldn’t know the perpetual nonesense but we do. And it’s not needed at all.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 01:09:05


Post by: SHUPPET


bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 01:12:40


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 01:15:40


Post by: BrianDavion


Andykp wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


a man whose last name was Pius isn't any more creative in the context the story was told Andy. And chances are Oll is just short of Ollanius. so.. yeah the only change is his surname


That’s kind of the point of him, he prob wasn’t called that at all but it sounds a great name for a saint and the story has gotten embellished over the years to inspire the common fighting man, same as the stalinists did in Ww2 Russia (and everyone else). What he wasn’t was a crude plot device shoehorned into a setting from nowhere. I know in setting most people wouldn’t know the perpetual nonesense but we do. And it’s not needed at all.


sure but that's kinda my point, we hear all this griping that he is something differant, and it sounds like some people are absolutely up in arms that this fairy tale has been proven to be mostly wrong, that said, I garentee you the man will suffer a truth death at the climax.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 01:52:35


Post by: SHUPPET


Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 02:37:33


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.




I was talking about our previous talk.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 03:43:05


Post by: BrianDavion


Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.




I was talking about our previous talk.


you need to stay on topic dude and not go dragging stuff from one thread to another


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 03:44:38


Post by: Ginjitzu


Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.




I was talking about our previous talk.




This thread has become a thread about people talking about what they were talking about within this thread.

Very meta.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 08:42:10


Post by: Grimskul


 Ginjitzu wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.




I was talking about our previous talk.




This thread has become a thread about people talking about what they were talking about within this thread.

Very meta.


,#justonethingthings?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 09:59:35


Post by: Andykp


Spoiler:
BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


a man whose last name was Pius isn't any more creative in the context the story was told Andy. And chances are Oll is just short of Ollanius. so.. yeah the only change is his surname


That’s kind of the point of him, he prob wasn’t called that at all but it sounds a great name for a saint and the story has gotten embellished over the years to inspire the common fighting man, same as the stalinists did in Ww2 Russia (and everyone else). What he wasn’t was a crude plot device shoehorned into a setting from nowhere. I know in setting most people wouldn’t know the perpetual nonesense but we do. And it’s not needed at all.


sure but that's kinda my point, we hear all this griping that he is something differant, and it sounds like some people are absolutely up in arms that this fairy tale has been proven to be mostly wrong, that said, I garentee you the man will suffer a truth death at the climax.


If they had fleshed our the character but kept him a basic human as was the point of the saint it would have been better. What annoys me is they made him yet another super human with super powers. I blame marvel.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 11:47:31


Post by: BrianDavion


Andykp wrote:
Spoiler:
BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.


a man whose last name was Pius isn't any more creative in the context the story was told Andy. And chances are Oll is just short of Ollanius. so.. yeah the only change is his surname


That’s kind of the point of him, he prob wasn’t called that at all but it sounds a great name for a saint and the story has gotten embellished over the years to inspire the common fighting man, same as the stalinists did in Ww2 Russia (and everyone else). What he wasn’t was a crude plot device shoehorned into a setting from nowhere. I know in setting most people wouldn’t know the perpetual nonesense but we do. And it’s not needed at all.


sure but that's kinda my point, we hear all this griping that he is something differant, and it sounds like some people are absolutely up in arms that this fairy tale has been proven to be mostly wrong, that said, I garentee you the man will suffer a truth death at the climax.


If they had fleshed our the character but kept him a basic human as was the point of the saint it would have been better. What annoys me is they made him yet another super human with super powers. I blame marvel.


except if they had made him a "fleshed out normal human character" then it would have made the "Silly guard bed time story" true.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 19:49:26


Post by: Onething123456


 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.




Back to the topic of this thread, ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT. So why so some people say the Emperor might be DAOT and that ADB said this in Master of Mankind's afterword when my link to my talk with ADB says otherwise? If ADB says the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, then I do not think he would have said otherwise in the afterword for Master of Mankind.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 20:06:20


Post by: BrianDavion


Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.




Back to the topic of this thread, ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT. So why so some people say the Emperor might be DAOT and that ADB said this in Master of Mankind's afterword when my link to my talk with ADB says otherwise? If ADB says the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, then I do not think he would have said otherwise in the afterword for Master of Mankind.


why are you trying to have this conversation in two seperate fething threads?


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 20:24:21


Post by: Onething123456


BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.




Back to the topic of this thread, ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT. So why so some people say the Emperor might be DAOT and that ADB said this in Master of Mankind's afterword when my link to my talk with ADB says otherwise? If ADB says the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, then I do not think he would have said otherwise in the afterword for Master of Mankind.


why are you trying to have this conversation in two seperate fething threads?




I accidentally posted it in the wrong thread. Sorry about that.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 20:56:13


Post by: Togusa


Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.



Back to the topic of this thread, ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT. So why so some people say the Emperor might be DAOT and that ADB said this in Master of Mankind's afterword when my link to my talk with ADB says otherwise? If ADB says the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, then I do not think he would have said otherwise in the afterword for Master of Mankind.



Better question, why does it matter if he was created by Shamans, or if it was during the DOAT, or somewhere in between? Shouldn't some mysteries in this story be truly left never explored? If we seek to explain everything, that will give rise to even more discontinuities and mistakes.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 21:01:07


Post by: Onething123456


 Togusa wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.


They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

Hmm, when reading it I remember clue'ing in to the idea by Legion, and then seeing other hints of it for a little bit but having Mechanicum do all but outright say it. So I think Legion, or some of the previous books, hinted at it in minor ways, and it was DEFINITELY coming pretty heavy handed by Mechanicum. It's probably a HH development as you say, but after the introduction to the setting with Horus Rising and that, I think that they pretty clearly established their intent with this aspect of it, but I can see what you mean.




I already posted the quote from Mechanicum where the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicus over tens of thousands of years. Its a fact.

That's not even what he's talking about.



Back to the topic of this thread, ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT. So why so some people say the Emperor might be DAOT and that ADB said this in Master of Mankind's afterword when my link to my talk with ADB says otherwise? If ADB says the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, then I do not think he would have said otherwise in the afterword for Master of Mankind.



Better question, why does it matter if he was created by Shamans, or if it was during the DOAT, or somewhere in between? Shouldn't some mysteries in this story be truly left never explored? If we seek to explain everything, that will give rise to even more discontinuities and mistakes.




I am just saying whats on my mind. And the shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader), but that's besides the point.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 21:09:24


Post by: greatbigtree


Did you ever watch Dodge Ball? The part where Patches O'Houlihan describes what it appears the players are trying to do at the same time?

I mean, total congratulations on stretching this out. I would not for a minute have guessed this would carry on to 10 pages. Starting a fight with no one, only to have many someones come to the plate. And you've repeated the gist of maybe 3 or 4 sentences, over and over, whether or not they make any contextual sense.

Bravo, man. You have made a mountain from a molehill.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 21:11:42


Post by: Onething123456


 greatbigtree wrote:
Did you ever watch Dodge Ball? The part where Patches O'Houlihan describes what it appears the players are trying to do at the same time?

I mean, total congratulations on stretching this out. I would not for a minute have guessed this would carry on to 10 pages. Starting a fight with no one, only to have many someones come to the plate. And you've repeated the gist of maybe 3 or 4 sentences, over and over, whether or not they make any contextual sense.

Bravo, man. You have made a mountain from a molehill.




I did not know how long this thread would be. And the majority of the pages are people talking with someone other than me.


My talk with ADB more or less confirming the Emperor is not from the DAOT @ 2018/10/30 21:23:52


Post by: insaniak


So, since we seem to have covered everything relevant here, I think it's time to move on...