Has anyone ever experienced any paranormal activity? I am using that term loosely here so if you think anything falls under it, please share. I just watched the first episode of Haunting of Hill House and it immediately reminded me of some experiences I was exposed to in college. I say exposed to it, because of the strange things that were happening around me, I didn't pick up on any of it, but the girls around me were, and were all freaked out.
So to set this story I have to describe in detail where it took place: a three story apartment/condo in an apartment community on the edge of our university campus, which was used as a Sorority Chapter house. My girlfriend at the time, we'll call Sara, I met while she lived in a different complex, and upon running for President for her sorority (btw I was not a frat guy and think frats for losers) and winning, she was now able to move into this Chapter House for free and bring in whoever she wanted from the sorority. She chose her best friends who I am going to call Ann, Carrie, and Vera. Before Sara and the gang moved in, we never had any talk or discussions about ghosts or anything, so when things started happening it really came out of the blue.
So this apartment was three stories, and the ground floor held the kitchen, dining area, and family room in one big open room with a really high ceiling. At the back wall from the front door was a stair case that went to the second floor landing, which held two bedrooms with their own bathrooms. My girlfriend Sara and Ann took one of these rooms each, while Vera and Carrie shared this huge room that might as well been a master on the third floor. The creepiest part of this place to me was the stairs. Coming from the third floor to the second, the stairs wrapped around so that if you were on the thrid floor, the stairs would go 1/3 the way down to the south, turn east and go down another third, and then north for the last third to the second. And even though these stairs were wrapped around with a wall, there was no light over the stairs, just on the landing. The stairs for the second to the ground floor were different. You would go south 1/4 of the way, turn east and it was straight 3/4 down to the ground floor in one long stretch. No light. And worse, the stairs and the ground floor were this marble-like stone, which was really hard. The moment I first saw this place, I blurted out that someone was going to wasted drunk or on drugs, trip on the stairs, and crack their head open on the base of the stairs. Both stairways were always dark and kind of creepy.
Now, Sarah, Anne, Carrie, and Vera were hard partiers. In addition to everyone doing plenty of the drug Ecstasy at the time, both Carrie and Vera were massive potheads. We partied pretty hard in those days. The debatchery that went on there is pretty legendary.
So I can't remember exactly the order of events that started happening as this was some time ago, but I want to point out right away that I have never seen a ghost nor experienced any paranormal activity myself. And believe me I wish I could. I would love nothing more than to be able to cross that off my list, along with a UFO, and so on. Some peeps seem to be receptive to this stuff, other are not. I am apparently in the camp that is not. I am open to believing something is happening just as I am open to UFOs, even though I have seen neither.
So some of the first things the girls started talking about was someone leaving a pan on the stove with nothing on it, yet the burners on full. Or someone running the dryer on the first floor and coming down to find their clothes already taken out. Doors were found closed when left open, or open when left closed. Now, I am sure many of you reading this are thinking about how I described these girls and the drugs they did would be the key ingredient here, meaning that maybe Vera got so baked she left the stove on, or forgot to put her clothes away after taking them out. I initially came to the same conclusion early on myself. But things started progressing beyond that. Everyone but Carrie (who would prob just shrug her shoulders at the site of a ghost anyway) reported presence when they were alone, and everyone felt uneasy around the long stairs going to the second floor.
Most of the time my girlfriend stayed at my place, so she initially didn't report anything until due to work and classes it was easier for her to stay at her place for awhile. She was the kind of girl that took awhile to talk about things that bothered her, so by the time she started bringing up weird things she was feeling to me, they had been going on for awhile. Now, I start hearing these things and I get all excited as I want to experience something, and coincidently start spending more time there.
Now, all this had no effect on our parting. Even though it was a 'Chapter House', they didn't get visitors often, so on the weekends we partied there pretty hard. We never had any issues during those times, it was always when one or two of them were alone. It got to a point where everyone was locking their bedroom door at night, especially when they were there alone. And the place that made everyone's hair stand up were both flights of stairs. I used to throw a glow stick or two in both stairways when we partied just to try to avoid a disaster. They bothered me that much.
One night I spent the night there, and the next morning my girlfriend told me she was terrified last night because she could sense someone coming up the stairs and actually try the door nob to her room which she had locked. She was so scared she didn't even wake me, to which I responded like wtf. I would have jumped right up and opened the door. I was also thinking one of the girls could have very well forgotten to lock the front door and it could have been an intruder. So I was actually pissed off about that, but she was really spooked out.
A few weeks later, and this one is going to sound silly, but during the day Sara and Anne started down the stairs from the second floor and about halfway down they both started to feel something to make them reach out and grab each other's hand, which both immediately stated they felt something rise up from behind them just behind their heads. Without saying a word to each other they ran as fast as they could out of the apartment.
At this point Sara starts asking other sorority sisters about the apartment and a someone reported that a girl who previous lived in the apartment came up the stairs to the second floor to the room Anne had now, and found a ghost of a young girl sitting on her bed. This girl moved right out of the apartment and never went back.
At this point I am salivating to see something but never did. Never felt a presence or anything. And I laughed that if it was a young girl who was haunting the place, then we were doing some really inappropriate things in the apartment between all the drugs and nudity. The closest I got to be a part of anything was one morning Sara and I were getting ready for class and I was in the shower and Sara asked if I knew where her keys were, and I shouted back no. A moment later this blood curling scream sends me running out of the shower to find my girlfriend in ball on the floor and crying. I was asked what happened and she goes on to insist that she had been looking for her keys, and she had this key holder next to her door where she would always hang her keys, and that she looked at it, didn't see her keys there, turned away, looked back at it and her keys appeared there hanging on the hook.
Now of course like you I just concluded she wasn't paying attention and that the keys were there the whole time, but she sobbed and said they weren't and there was something wrong with that apartment. All the weird stuff that had been going on finally broke her at that moment I guess. That was the only time I was nearby so to speak when 'something' happened. I didn't pay attention to the key holder so I have no idea if the keys were there or not.
So now it becomes widely known that the sorority 'house' is haunted, and other previous tenants reported some things but nothing visual like that one girl, and not extreme as what Anne and Sara were.
Then one night a group of girls with this Asian guy show up at her bedroom door at like 1am while we were sleeping and one of the girls says the guy is her brother, who is a psychic, and they were talking about the house and wanted to come by and see if he could sense anything. I was like, yeah right, and went right back to snoozing. Well, it turned out that this guy felt this presence was a little girl who had died and had taken an interest in the girls living in this apartment, and the things like the pan on the stove, or the dryer and so on, was this girl learning from the girls living in the apartment. Or in some cases trying to help, like with the keys. When I heard this I was of course skeptical, but also slapped my forehead about all the things this poor little soul had to have seen that went on there lol.
At any rate, for whatever reason, the girls bought into this guy's theory and the tension settled down after that. I don't remember anything really happening after that. The girls had lived there for a semester or two and when the year was over everyone moved out. No one had any issues like that again, and I have no idea if anything is still going on there. Soon after the official sorority house was finished and they stopped renting it.
Now, just like you, I could conclude they these girls doing drugs, being drunk, etc just put all these things into their heads, but I was doing the same things and never experienced even the slightest goose bump. And it could be that this girl just had zero interest in me, just the girls as this guy had stated. Plus we only partied on the weekends and not during the week when many of the strange things would happen. We never learned anything about who the girl might be or where she came from either. Things just went back to normal when they moved out. The only thing that brings me back to these memories as opposed to just writing the whole thing off was the terror I could see on their faces.
So that is what I got. Anyone got any thing they have experienced like this? I have heard of some other fantasical experiences, like guy I knew of reported that when he was a young teenager, that a ghost few into his room from an window and flew back out. That this seems silly to me, but this guy swore by it.
So if I was in the Hill House whatever and that chic from episode 1 was running out of the house, I would be turning all the lights on and chasing her around the house! I am just dying to see something.
I had two haunted places in college. One was the main student building (I was on the building lockup/security student team), and the second was a dining hall basement. First one I could feel a malevolent set of eyes on me every time I locked up and shut off the lights downstairs by the mailroom. Second place I went downstairs with a friend who was getting ingredients for pizzas, walked out of the elevator and promptly experienced vertigo so badly that I fell over (I had NEVER experienced vertigo from an elevator previously). My friend then told me of himself and two others experiencing things there; one a feeling of dread so badly that he bolted, and the guy who brought me down told me he saw a woman downstairs who shrieked like a banshee at him when he addressed her. He told me this after I fell over, because he waited to see if I felt something. Sure as hell did!
I wonder if vertigo has a lot to do with the feelings people feel about hauntings. Meaning they get confused with one feeling for another.
There was a book and I can't remember what it was called, I had to read it in college for a Literature and the Occult class I took, where this house was 'haunted' but not by any ghost. Its just the house was poorly made and made noises or uneven floors would cause doors to close on their own, and drove everyone nuts thinking it was haunted. If someone knows what I am talking about let me know.
When I was a kid, I couldn't stand the infinite blackness of a open closet in my room. I would have to get up and close it. Didn't matter if there was something behind the closed door, so long as the door was closed lol
I had no reason to believe the place was haunted at the beginning; I thought I was heading downstairs to help get pizza supplies. I walked into the situation blind. And four of us all had different reactions, but all had a reaction from entering.
Nothing too wild for me.. but when I was little, I remember I used to see an old woman with a scarf over her head out of the corner of my eye. Usually she would be just looking out window. When I would turn to look where she was standing, there would be nothing there.
There was another time in high school, the gang was hanging out at a girls house, drinking booze. I don't drink, so was mostly just watching tv and watching my friends get stupider. I remember sitting in a recliner and the whole time I just felt super depressed like I wanted to burst into tears for no reason. I got up and joined everyone else and suddenly felt better. Later on the girl who lived there was saying something about the family who lived there before had a kid that fell down the steps and died, right where I was sitting.
I get hypnopompic sleep hallucinations quite frequently. That's essentially where your brain half wakes up and your eyes are open and see the world around you; but hallucinations are overlaid on reality, with the rational/reasoning part of your brain yet to kick in. It's like the horrorcore version of Pokemon Go.
The most classic scenario is a monster of some variety (whatever your brain can conjure up) gradually approaching you whilst you can't move. Eventually it reaches a point of proximity to you that the fight or flight impulse kicks in; but as you can't get further away (you're lying in bed), you attack it. Then it fades into the background and vanishes as your higher level cognition kicks in from the movement and action.
An alternative one (and potentially more dangerous) is where there's less direct visual hallucination but you 'sense' things watching you whilst still semi-asleep. Usually the ceiling being covered in eyes or cameras or general malign forces with echolocation or something. That one usually results in your waking someone else up to tell them about it, or just trying to leave (sleepwalking style). Even though you're still asleep.
They're quite good fun in a way. When I was younger, they scared the everliving crap out of me. As someone else I once read put it though; when you've hallucinated Doris the brain eating Granny at the end of your bed for the sixth time that month, it stops scaring even your semi-conscious brain. You just roll over and go back to sleep half the time. Which would probably be highly problematic if a horror film monster ever did show up, but y'know.
Some of my more entertaining episodes have included:-
-Me ripping posters off the wall and shouting in rage because the Beholder style monster I saw vanished into them.
-Seeing Slenderman at the end of the end of the bed and jumping out to attack him; only to see him run through a (non-existent) door in the wall. My girlfriend woke up to me trying to Platform 9 3/4 the wall in chasing him.
-Waking my girlfriend up to tell her I'll keep her safe from the demon watching her. Then proceeding to stare at a wall for about twenty minutes.
-Punching the wall because the demonic goat thing I hallucinated vanished into it, and damaging my fist for the next two weeks.
-Sensing undead spirits spying on me and trying to flee the house in my underwear to get where they couldn't look through the giant mirror in my ceiling.
There are plenty of others, but those are some of my favourites. The strategy I instructed my girlfriend (or anyone else) to try and wake me up is to feed me some arithmetic problems. Asking me what 49x8-5 is usually enough to snap me out of it because it forces the more rational portion of my brain to activate. That part then suddenly goes 'hang on a minute....undead spirits in the ceiling...?' and the spell breaks.
Although recently I seem to have started developing the ability to do basic arithmetic calculations whilst semi-conscious (and thus not waking up when asked), which is...concerning. I'm considering laying out some algebra problems next to the bed or something for my girlfriend for future occurrences.
Back when I was a teen (mid-eighties), I was on a canoe-camp trip down the Merrimac River in central Missouri. One morning I was the first awake, and walked across the gravel bar to the river to splash some water on my face, with the usual 'crunch-crunch-crunch' sound of someone walking on gravel.
I sat there for a couple minutes, then I heard someone else walking on the gravel behind me. I figured another member of the group was awake and headed this way, and when the sound of footsteps on gravel stopped fairly close behind me, I casually turned to look... and there was no one there. No cover for a good fifteen feet back to the river bank and the camp.
Looking back, if it was a haunting of any sort, it was most remarkable in that there was NO sense of fear, or threat, or disorientation... or even just a sense of being watched. Just
the sound of someone walking on gravel.
To this day I'm not sure if it was some sort of haunting, or if there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for the sound, or even if my mind/hearing was just messing with me that morning. No way to tell now, thirty-plus years later.
Love that guy. The new SlingTV ad with him and his wife is pure comedy gold.
Necros wrote: I remember sitting in a recliner and the whole time I just felt super depressed like I wanted to burst into tears for no reason. I got up and joined everyone else and suddenly felt better. Later on the girl who lived there was saying something about the family who lived there before had a kid that fell down the steps and died, right where I was sitting.
You know, I meant to mention this in my opening post, but I knew I was already under a lot of pressure to speed things up because Nostromodamus had a game of Adeptus Titanicus with his wife to get back to, so I left it out, but in college I learned there were two types of hauntings/ghosts, and I can't remember the names of either. One was like a residual type of event that was just a replay of something happened in time, maybe an event that was very emotional or for whatever reason left behind some energy that could be picked up by others later, and the other was some kind of posession where there was an actual enitity knocking books off book cases and so on. I have no doubt you geniunely felt the emotion from that boys death, maybe not even from the boy himself but whoever found him. Or who knows maybe he is still hanging around that spot.
The other one I find a little harder to accept, event though I wouldn't write off the possibility. Its just when you think about it, there are around 7 billion people on earth, with billions who came before us. If it were that easy for ghosts to come back and mess with us, I imagine there would be many of them and they would be knocking books off shelves all over the place. Or maybe they are and we can't see them. Who knows. Keep that in mind the next time you are jerking off to online porn. You might have a whole audience watching. Maybe even your late great grandmother shaking her head in disapproval. Just saying'.
<sips coffee>
Anyway, I am sure these hauntings could be from all sorts of things, the mind, energy left behind, or actual sprirts. I just wish I could come face to face with something to know for sure.
Wait there was a time in high school a buddy called me up to say he and my friend came across a dead body while off-roading at night in a in a jeep in a field near a forest. The 'body' was just within the trees. Anyway, they were freaked out and got me to come along to see for sure (why we didn't call the police at this point I have no idea). I really didn't believe them and when we got to the spot, which we had to drive over a fallen fence to get to, the 'body' was gone. Both friends swore but I figured it was just some hobo sleeping. The interesting part was a weird sensation I felt standing over the spot where they said the body was. It was this weird warm feeling while it was a cool night out. Can't really explain it. The best part was that when my friend tried to drive his jeep back over the fence, it got caught under the jeep and we couldn't move. Just reved and reved and spun our tires until the police arrived sometime later lol. Someone nearby saw us clowning around and called the cops. So we had to tell them what happened and convince them we didn't crash down the fence, and one of them already knew that section was down. But we had to hear an earful about how dumb it was looking for a dead body without telling the cops for 45 min before they let us go.
I've had my leg hair turn into black worms and crawl all over me, had my arm stretch and twist like you would ringing a towel, exited my body and watched myself on the couch, melted into another person like paint colours blending into a grayish brown mess when you mix too many of them,
had sounds turn into red ropes, trees crawl around and follow me, album covers come alive and move about, pixels create kaleidoscopic patterns, but I was also on acid, so...
KTG17 wrote: Nostromodamus had a game of Adeptus Titanicus with his wife to get back to
I wish!
I’ve had sleep paralysis twice before, seeing as others mentioned it. Matches 99% of alien abduction stories out there. This is why I’m highly skeptical of paranormal stuff. Not that I don’t think it’s possible, but that it’s always explainable by something mundane.
No. I know such silly superstitions don't exist, and every phenomenon has a perfectly valid scientific explanation. If something supernatural really existed, it'd be pretty much have to be all-powerful or something like that to be able to keep hidden from scientists for so long. That, or it is just isn't part of the physical world that we can feel or measure in any way (or at least not a way we have figured out yet).
But as a kid I wasn't so certain and once me and a classmate tried to summon the ghost of his dead grandfather. It gave all the right answers to his questions and that left both of us pretty freaked out. Of course, now I know that such tricks for "communicating with ghosts"are deliberately designed to give vague answers that can always be interpreted as right, but I was too naive to think of that back then.
When I was around 9-10 years old I was cleaning my room in the incredibly creepy farm house we lived in at the time. A night light with no bulb in it was part of the debris I had just swept up. I picked up the night light and carried it to the dresser almost on the other side of the room. I walked back to sweep up the debris, and as I leaned down to grab the dustpan, something smacked the wall just above me. I then watched the night light drop onto the floor in front of me. The next part involved running and screaming, and my Mom dismissing my experience.
About a month later, I had convinced Mom to let me switch rooms, and I was asleep with my bed facing the window that had one of those old school farm lights outside it. You know, the one with the ceramic lined steel dome where the light sits? Anywhich, I had woken up, and it wasn't a jarred wake up, just up. I was laying on my side at the time, and tried for a couple minutes to get back to sleep, Restless, I rolled onto my back. It was at THIS time that I saw the silhouette of a man about the size I am now, with curly hair and a hatchet coming straight at me. I sat up to scream, and the shadow went through me. It was like being charged with current, and I couldn't move.
Not 3 months after this, something happened to my extremely anti-superstitious/believing/whatever Dad, and we moved in with my Grandmother while we found a new house.
The landlord also bulldozed the house down shortly after we moved out.
Iron_Captain wrote: No. I know such silly superstitions don't exist, and every phenomenon has a perfectly valid scientific explanation. If something supernatural really existed, it'd be pretty much have to be all-powerful or something like that to be able to keep hidden from scientists for so long. That, or it is just isn't part of the physical world that we can feel or measure in any way (or at least not a way we have figured out yet).
Not personally, but my other half has at the pre-school she used to work at. Not just her either but the kids and other members of staff at the time experienced various phenomena. Probably the thing that freaked her the most was a visible apparition of someone in 1910 style dress. This is in Norway by the way.
I'm sceptical by nature, but I do dislike it when people dismiss things completely out of hand as untrue just because they think it's so. Completely disregards the scientific method and to be honest, makes them just as bad as those who believe in it outright without evidence one way or another.
I'm sceptical by nature, but I do dislike it when people dismiss things completely out of hand as untrue just because they think it's so. Completely disregards the scientific method and to be honest, makes them just as bad as those who believe in it outright without evidence one way or another.
I agree. That’s why even though I haven’t seen anything myself I don’t blow off what others have felt or seen. Some of it could be explained yet other events not so much. The idea of ghosts has been around for a long time and is not a recent phenomenon. Even if the vast majority can be explained as BS there are some that cannot be. And I am sure state of mind, imagination, health all play a part too.
As for science, I lean on scientific explanations myself before accepting faith, but there is a lot science is unable to explain too since we just do not have all the answers.
First was when I was a nipper. Top deck of a Bus in Edinburgh, just approaching The Dean Bridge.
Was sat on the left hand side, and being a kid, was looking out the window. And on that side are some small green spaces, separating the main road from the residential road. It's your usual, New Town Green Space. Bushes for borders, some benches, and trees, with a path for people to wander along.
Bus came to a stop (whether an actual stop to let people on, or because traffic I don't recall). I saw two old folk walking down the path I mentioned, and they passed out of sight behind a tree. And I swear to this day they did not appear back in sight. Now, this was 30+ years ago, and as one can see here, those trees still aren't exactly might sequoia.
Even allowing for them having a breather (they were old folk), it's my memory of the event that they really should've appeared the other side of the tree whilst we were stationery.
And I swear they didn't. Even remember looking back once we pulled away. There was no exit from the green behind the tree. They just vanished.
Of course. This is a rusty memory from an impressionable child, so I'd say is barely an anecdote. But it's stayed with me.
The other time?
Road trip around Halloween to Pluckley, reputedly the most haunted village in England. Because, I mean, why the devil not?
Anyways, we did the tour, and didn't get even slightly freaked out. Eventually, we pile back in the car to visit one of the further out spots. And that's where things got odd.
If you're a driver, you'll know that you know your car. You can tell when something's just not right. Perhaps the acceleration is a bit sluggish, or your load could do with redistributing, as the steering is a bit heavy on one side.
Now I'd been driving that particular car for two or three years, so was well used to her quirks.
We stopped on a verge to get out to explore. Gemma started getting a bit freaked out (bless her), so we called it a night, and decided to head for home. And man, the car just was not right.
It felt like there was additional weight on the right hand front side. Yet it was just me there, with Lol in the passenger seat, and Gemma behind him. The steering felt really odd, and the acceleration wasn't up to snuff. And bearing in mind the engine was warm, that wasn't what I expected. I remember it being a surprisingly struggle to keep the Old Girl going in a straight line. The weighty feeling kept pulling us to the right. It really did feel as if there was something pressing down on the roof.
It was at that point I decided to forgo the scenic route home, feeling that if something was mechanically wrong, the Recovery Team would find us far more easily on a main road. The second we crossed out of the village - car back to normal. Like, the very instant.
Now, it could have been anything. But she'd never done anything like that before, nor since.
So, yeah. I've had some spooky encounters for sure, and I can't explain them. But that doesn't mean they're therefore truly inexplicable.
There isn't a single 'paranormal' story out there that cannot be explained by environmental factors, mental illness, chicanery or just good old pareidolia.
And that's exactly the sort of closed mindedness, blind belief and arrogance that embarrasses the human race in general. Well done in showing it off in one post.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: And that's exactly the sort of closed mindedness, blind belief and arrogance that embarrasses the human race in general. Well done in showing it off in one post.
The problem with the 'paranormal' (by which I'm referring to ghosts/weird feelings/poltergeists/etc) is that they fall prey to the same tests that organised religion do. And fail them just as rapidly.
To transfer the Flying Spaghetti monster example; how do we know that all hauntings aren't the result of some wacky hijinks by a hitherto undetected race of gnomes? Or an invisible species of bear? Or an interdimensional version of Lucius the Eternal with a warped sense of humour? With no evidence of any kind, all these things are just as likely, valid, and believable as the declaration that it must be ghosts/demons/that wicked child from next door that keeps throwing their ball on your lawn.
But would you really call someone who scoffed at the idea of invisible bears 'close-minded'?
Even the general concepts of ghosts and demons and nature spirits and so forth, all originate from the days when humans had to come up with explanations as to why things happened; but without any understanding of the world around them. The waves moved because Poseidon wanted them to, the thunder rolled because Zeus said it should, and mortuaries were haunted because spirits explain the creepy atmosphere and sudden awareness of mortality. Historical supernatural explanations for unknown phenomena can rarely be taken seriously today in most fields. Why is this one different?
Jumping to the paranormal for an explanation for anything is doing things backwards, taking a ton of hearsay about possible events and speculating wildly with no evidence of any kind. Even if you were the one to experience those events, or we take it for granted that those events happened; jumping from them to 'demons/ghosts did it' is such a vast illogical jump with a million attached assumptions that it remains patently ludicrous. You're seeing what you've decided you want to see. It's no different to seeing a banana fall from a tree and ascribing it to God, or your dinner getting burned and assuming the fire pixies did it.
It would be just as easy to dismiss you as being so open-minded that your brain has fallen out, but that gets us nowhere.
Being open to new things/information is of course vital. Pretending that you have to be open-minded about the existence of something for which there is not even the slightest shred of evidence and for which there are countless perfectly satisfactory alternative explanations is utter madness.
Where do you draw the line? Do you put teeth under your pillow in case the Tooth Fairy is real? Why not? Are you closed-minded, or is the Tooth Fairy childish nonsense with no evidential support in real life?
Do you believe in vampires? Sasquatch? Nessy? Santa?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: And that's exactly the sort of closed mindedness, blind belief and arrogance that embarrasses the human race in general. Well done in showing it off in one post.
No, he isn't wrong. As KGT mentions, ghost stories have been around for a very long time. Probably since the dawn of time. There is millions upon millions of anecdotes. But in all that time, and with all those stories, there has never been a single shred of evidence that ghosts are real. And it is not like people haven't been trying their hardest to proof the existence of ghosts. They have. It is just impossible to find any evidence whatsoever for all of those anecdotes, and so the scientific method urges us to dismiss the existence of ghosts and look to alternative, more mundane explanations instead. The Human mind is a funny thing. In my opinion, many of these ghost experiences are just tricks of the mind, where our mind misinterprets something mundane but unexpected as "ghost", and others can be explained by hallucinations, which contrary to popular belief occur even in perfectly sane and healthy people under normal circumstances.
Excommunicatus wrote: It would be just as easy to dismiss you as being so open-minded that your brain has fallen out, but that gets us nowhere.
Being open to new things/information is of course vital. Pretending that you have to be open-minded about the existence of something for which there is not even the slightest shred of evidence and for which there are countless perfectly satisfactory alternative explanations is utter madness.
Where do you draw the line? Do you put teeth under your pillow in case the Tooth Fairy is real? Why not? Are you closed-minded, or is the Tooth Fairy childish nonsense with no evidential support in real life?
Do you believe in vampires? Sasquatch? Nessy? Santa?
Dismissing the swipe at the start (which you need to reign in a bit with your posting style. I thought Canadians were meant to be polite?)
I draw the line where the evidence is. Until the evidence is presented to be 100% infallible that something can or can not exist or happen (and that's just not too anything supernatural, that's too all things), then you have to keep in the back of your mind that the slim possibility is there. Sure, the odds are that nothing like that does exist, but if you believe it blindly, you're no different than those who believe it implicitly. You're just different sides of the same coin. But you're obviously 100% in your beliefs, (along with insulting) so there's not much point in trying to discuss it.
I'll leave you with a Conan Doyle quote that I'm sure you've heard and can quite happily apply to both sides of the argument:
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth".
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: And that's exactly the sort of closed mindedness, blind belief and arrogance that embarrasses the human race in general. Well done in showing it off in one post.
The problem with the 'paranormal' (by which I'm referring to ghosts/weird feelings/poltergeists/etc) is that they fall prey to the same tests that organised religion do. And fail them just as rapidly.
There is a lot of problems with that analogy. Religion and ghost stories are not even remotely comparable or related (a religion being a cultural system of philosophy and worldview, the paranormal being anecdotes based on sensory perceptions). However, religions also often have a lot of paranormal superstitions based on their mythology, which are closely related to ghost stories. For Christianity those are for example stories of possession, excorcism, visits from angels etc.
Excommunicatus wrote: It would be just as easy to dismiss you as being so open-minded that your brain has fallen out, but that gets us nowhere.
Being open to new things/information is of course vital. Pretending that you have to be open-minded about the existence of something for which there is not even the slightest shred of evidence and for which there are countless perfectly satisfactory alternative explanations is utter madness.
Where do you draw the line? Do you put teeth under your pillow in case the Tooth Fairy is real? Why not? Are you closed-minded, or is the Tooth Fairy childish nonsense with no evidential support in real life?
Do you believe in vampires? Sasquatch? Nessy? Santa?
Dismissing the swipe at the start (which you need to reign in a bit with your posting style. I thought Canadians were meant to be polite?) I draw the line where the evidence is. Until the evidence is presented to be 100% infallible that something can or can not exist or happen (and that's just not too anything supernatural, that's too all things), then you have to keep in the back of your mind that the slim possibility is there. Sure, the odds are that nothing like that does exist, but if you believe it blindly, you're no different than those who believe it implicitly. You're just different sides of the same coin. But you're obviously 100% in your beliefs, (along with insulting) so there's not much point in trying to discuss it.
I'll leave you with a Conan Doyle quote that I'm sure you've heard and can quite happily apply to both sides of the argument:
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth".
I'm not Canadian, but that's a fantastic example of leaping two-footed to a conclusion based on incomplete information. I couldn't have set that up better if I had tried. I live in Canada, but I was born and raised in North Yorkshire, U.K..
I'll assume then that you do in fact believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa since you decided not to engage with that fatal flaw in your... well lets be generous and call it an argument.
You should read The Phantom Tollbooth. It would be instructive.
Oh goodie, the usual "none of this stuff exists" people who also denounce religion and deities entered the thread to tell all of us we're wrong if we've experienced anything supernatural. What a shock. Do you guys have anything better to do than tell everyone who believes in more than just flesh and blood why they're wrong and only your narrow viewpoint is the right one? Jeez.
timetowaste85 wrote: Oh goodie, the usual "none of this stuff exists" people who also denounce religion and deities entered the thread to tell all of us we're wrong if we've experienced anything supernatural. What a shock. Do you guys have anything better to do than tell everyone who believes in more than just flesh and blood why they're wrong and only your narrow viewpoint is the right one? Jeez.
Don't waste your time. All you're going to get here is rudeness and sniping. No actual discussion because no one wants to discuss, as you've already seen.
Excommunicatus wrote: It would be just as easy to dismiss you as being so open-minded that your brain has fallen out, but that gets us nowhere.
Being open to new things/information is of course vital. Pretending that you have to be open-minded about the existence of something for which there is not even the slightest shred of evidence and for which there are countless perfectly satisfactory alternative explanations is utter madness.
Where do you draw the line? Do you put teeth under your pillow in case the Tooth Fairy is real? Why not? Are you closed-minded, or is the Tooth Fairy childish nonsense with no evidential support in real life?
Do you believe in vampires? Sasquatch? Nessy? Santa?
Dismissing the swipe at the start (which you need to reign in a bit with your posting style. I thought Canadians were meant to be polite?)
I draw the line where the evidence is. Until the evidence is presented to be 100% infallible that something can or can not exist or happen (and that's just not too anything supernatural, that's too all things), then you have to keep in the back of your mind that the slim possibility is there. Sure, the odds are that nothing like that does exist, but if you believe it blindly, you're no different than those who believe it implicitly. You're just different sides of the same coin. But you're obviously 100% in your beliefs, (along with insulting) so there's not much point in trying to discuss it.
I'll leave you with a Conan Doyle quote that I'm sure you've heard and can quite happily apply to both sides of the argument:
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth".
I'm not Canadian, but that's a fantastic example of leaping two-footed to a conclusion based on incomplete information. I couldn't have set that up better if I had tried. I live in Canada, but I was born and raised in North Yorkshire, U.K..
I'll assume then that you do in fact believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa since you decided not to engage with that fatal flaw in your... well lets be generous and call it an argument.
You should read The Phantom Tollbooth. It would be instructive.
Well maybe you should take some lessons from your neighbours and learn a little politeness. Might do you some good. But as I said before, if you bothered to read, I've never experienced anything supernatural one way or another. I'll just never dismiss anything out of hand without studying and considering all factors as that's idiotic to do otherwise. Almost like a blind belief you might say.
I draw the line where the evidence is. Until the evidence is presented to be 100% infallible that something can or can not exist or happen (and that's just not too anything supernatural, that's too all things), then you have to keep in the back of your mind that the slim possibility is there. Sure, the odds are that nothing like that does exist, but if you believe it blindly, you're no different than those who believe it implicitly. You're just different sides of the same coin. But you're obviously 100% in your beliefs, (along with insulting) so there's not much point in trying to discuss it.
What evidence would you require before you accept that something does not exist? Because if it's not something reasonable; this is the God debate and it's been done to death.
There is a lot of problems with that analogy. Religion and ghost stories are not even remotely comparable or related (a religion being a cultural system of philosophy and worldview, the paranormal being anecdotes based on sensory perceptions).
Religions originate in 'ghost stories'; in effect. It's just man pretending to himself that he can control a phenomena he cannot explain by hedging it in with rules and makebelieve. It starts off as a 'ghost' story from a feeling or unexplainable occurrence, it spreads, someone says the 'ghost' spoke to them in a dream, devises a code of behaviour to placate the 'ghost', others begin to follow it, etcetc. Next thing you know you have a thousand churches or shrines dedicated to the 'ghost'.
The 'paranormal' as we understand it today is just the standard cultural legacy of whatever society you're in for explaining the unexplainable (water spirits, angels, whatever) before it develops into the full blown religion. The intrinsic logic remains the same behind either one; that is to say, it's always an attempt to justify or prove something with no evidence by a 'leap of faith' (to steal Kierkegaard).
That's precisely because it is the God debate again, anything of this nature is. Reasonable is going to depend on the individual. Personally, I'd want physical, consistent evidence on either side of the debate. Show me something that can be measured or viewed on the paranormal side and vice versa for non-paranormal. I'm sceptical in nature as I said before, but I like to study both sides of the fence in these things and never sit in with either side that loves to shout "I'm right" at the other.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: That's precisely because it is the God debate again, anything of this nature is. Reasonable is going to depend on the individual. Personally, I'd want physical, consistent evidence on either side of the debate. Show me something that can be measured or viewed on the paranormal side and vice versa for non-paranormal. I'm sceptical in nature as I said before, but I like to study both sides of the fence in these things and never sit in with either side that loves to shout "I'm right" at the other.
So...you want someone to prove to you that something does not exist with 'physical consistent evidence'? Because I'm really not sure how one can provide 'physical consistent evidence' something does not exist. Could you clarify?
By showing the causes for those instances. If a ghost is seen, as an example, can you show me if it was a hallucination, a mental condition, drugs, bad curry etc. Is there a measurable and/or recordable factor that caused that incident and can be identified as the cause? Or if there is no factor that can be identified, what do we move onto afterwards?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: And that's exactly the sort of closed mindedness, blind belief and arrogance that embarrasses the human race in general. Well done in showing it off in one post.
No, he isn't wrong. As KGT mentions, ghost stories have been around for a very long time. Probably since the dawn of time. There is millions upon millions of anecdotes. But in all that time, and with all those stories, there has never been a single shred of evidence that ghosts are real. And it is not like people haven't been trying their hardest to proof the existence of ghosts. They have. It is just impossible to find any evidence whatsoever for all of those anecdotes, and so the scientific method urges us to dismiss the existence of ghosts and look to alternative, more mundane explanations instead. The Human mind is a funny thing. In my opinion, many of these ghost experiences are just tricks of the mind, where our mind misinterprets something mundane but unexpected as "ghost", and others can be explained by hallucinations, which contrary to popular belief occur even in perfectly sane and healthy people under normal circumstances.
Yeah but sometimes different people experience similar experiences in the same place, years apart and not knowing each other to get their stories straight. And again, we are grouping ghosts into one general category here, but in the events involving replays of events or emotions, those do not require god or religious beliefs either. There just could be some residual energy left behind that some are better at picking up than others, like the poster above who sat in the chair. He didn't see anything, just felt something. How do you scientifically measure that? Not sure you can. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
There was a story I heard about, and I will have to research where the heck it was, but over the years visitors to some old church/chapel reporting seeing ghostly apparitions and maybe even singing but I am not sure on that. Well, the crazy part was that the witnesses (and there were several over time) reported that the figures were walking down the isle with only their hips and above showing (which had to be a creepy sight itself). These apparitions did not seem to react to the visitors, and just seemed to be a replay of some previous event. The crazy thing was that the figures were only partially showing. Some years later it was realized that the floor had actually been raised at one point, and the original floor was indeed lower and to the level where the apparition's would have stood had the new floor not been laid down. Now, I do not know how you scientifically prove that these apparitions show from time to time, but who comes up with a story like that? I mean, if someone is going to report a ghost, I imagine it would involve a cooler event than just that. Some of these sightings are very mundane.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: By showing the causes for those instances. If a ghost is seen, as an example, can you show me if it was a hallucination, a mental condition, drugs, bad curry etc. Is there a measurable and/or recordable factor that caused that incident and can be identified as the cause? Or if there is no factor that can be identified, what do we move onto afterwards?
So in order to dismiss ghosts as a realistic prospect that could potentially exist; you require every single 'sighting' ever made to be disproved with a burden of evidence that could only be met in a controlled environment? Psych evaluations, cameras, etcetc. If not every one, what proportion? For what period of time? From what people?
Also, do you require this burden of proof for every imaginable item that it is likely does not exist before you discount it as being beyond the realm of rational believability?
Interesting story about Canadians being polite (not to derail).
Was just in Canada a little over a week ago, Saint John to be exact. Me and the soon-to-be-missus were about to go into a coffee shop (Java Moose, quite tasty). A guy was coming up the street toward us, he got to the door first and opened it for us to let us in... not too uncommon. We said thanks, and he said no problem... then he left. We were like... WTF! Who goes out of their way to open a door for someone just walking down the street when you're not going in there too?
Then, we were inside, waiting on our coffee, found ourselves a table and were checking our emails and facebooks since our cruise ship didn't have wifi and we were going through withdrawal. The girl behind the counter called out my name. I was just getting up when some other customer who was waiting in line was like "here ya go" and walked it over to me before I could even stand up. Double WTF! Mind blown. Canadians are nice.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: By showing the causes for those instances. If a ghost is seen, as an example, can you show me if it was a hallucination, a mental condition, drugs, bad curry etc. Is there a measurable and/or recordable factor that caused that incident and can be identified as the cause? Or if there is no factor that can be identified, what do we move onto afterwards?
So in order to dismiss ghosts as a realistic prospect that could potentially exist; you require every single 'sighting' ever made to be disproved with a burden of evidence that could only be met in a controlled environment? Psych evaluations, cameras, etcetc. If not every one, what proportion? For what period of time? From what people?
Also, do you require this burden of proof for every imaginable item that it is likely does not exist before you discount it as being beyond the realm of rational believability?
Ultimately? Yes.
Because, as the introduction of a book of ghost stories I had as a kid points out, if only one of the stories is true it proves the existence of ghosts.
There is a lot of problems with that analogy. Religion and ghost stories are not even remotely comparable or related (a religion being a cultural system of philosophy and worldview, the paranormal being anecdotes based on sensory perceptions).
Religions originate in 'ghost stories'; in effect. It's just man pretending to himself that he can control a phenomena he cannot explain by hedging it in with rules and makebelieve. It starts off as a 'ghost' story from a feeling or unexplainable occurrence, it spreads, someone says the 'ghost' spoke to them in a dream, devises a code of behaviour to placate the 'ghost', others begin to follow it, etcetc. Next thing you know you have a thousand churches or shrines dedicated to the 'ghost'.
The 'paranormal' as we understand it today is just the standard cultural legacy of whatever society you're in for explaining the unexplainable (water spirits, angels, whatever) before it develops into the full blown religion. The intrinsic logic remains the same behind either one; that is to say, it's always an attempt to justify or prove something with no evidence by a 'leap of faith' (to steal Kierkegaard).
No, they do not. Ghost stories originate from unexplained sensory perceptions, hallucinations and the like. Religions, along with culture and society as a whole originate with people seeking to give meaning to their life. The origin of religion is a relatively well-studied and understood subject (and very interesting). There is no such thing as a 'stage' where people believe in something paranormal before that develops into "a full-blown religion". Rather, it is the reverse. People experience something weird they can not explain and then use the their frame of reference, which is formed by the religious-cultural complex of their society to makes sense of their experience. Religions do not form from 'ghost stories', 'ghost stories' form from religion (or rather the entire mythology of a given society. It is impossible to seperate religion from culture in general since they form and feed into one another).
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: By showing the causes for those instances. If a ghost is seen, as an example, can you show me if it was a hallucination, a mental condition, drugs, bad curry etc. Is there a measurable and/or recordable factor that caused that incident and can be identified as the cause? Or if there is no factor that can be identified, what do we move onto afterwards?
So in order to dismiss ghosts as a realistic prospect that could potentially exist; you require every single 'sighting' ever made to be disproved with a burden of evidence that could only be met in a controlled environment? Psych evaluations, cameras, etcetc. If not every one, what proportion? For what period of time? From what people?
Also, do you require this burden of proof for every imaginable item that it is likely does not exist before you discount it as being beyond the realm of rational believability?
Apologies, was in a meeting. But as Azrael says, pretty much yes. If you're to eliminate the idea 100%, you must present 100% infallible proof that something like ghosts can't exist. As long as you leave even 1%, you leave the possibility that they could exist.
Desubot wrote: Cant we all just enjoy our spooky scary skeletons?
No. 2spooky4me
Manchu wrote: As a reminder~~~~ there is a ban on discussing politics and religion in the OT. Thanks!
Oh, yeah. Almost forgot it wasn't just politics. But we are discussing not religion per se but rather the relation of 'ghost stories' to religion. Does that fall under the ban or not?
No, they do not. Ghost stories originate from unexplained sensory perceptions, hallucinations and the like. Religions, along with culture and society as a whole originate with people seeking to give meaning to their life. The origin of religion is a relatively well-studied and understood subject (and very interesting). There is no such thing as a 'stage' where people believe in something paranormal before that develops into "a full-blown religion". Rather, it is the reverse. People experience something weird they can not explain and then use the their frame of reference, which is formed by the religious-cultural complex of their society to makes sense of their experience. Religions do not form from 'ghost stories', 'ghost stories' form from religion (or rather the entire mythology of a given society. It is impossible to seperate religion from culture in general since they form and feed into one another).
If we're going to be completely honest here; you're generalising as much as I am and just as inaccurate (not to mention pushing several positions on me I never took). 'Religion' originates from several places, going from good old Hubbard's 'How much money can I make here' through to people extracting meaning from a hit sci-fi series and deciding to write a life code about it.
It is however, more or less established fact that there are plenty of cases of 'unexplained phenomena' being the key point for a supranatural religious entity which makes people conceptualise and believe in it. Without the sea, an (at the time) unexplainable phenomena which dashes sailors into rocks, there is no Poseidon. Without the sun, an (at the time unexplainable) phenomena which emits heat and light every day, there's no need for a giant beetle to push it across the sky. You get the drift. Sure, people use their existing cultural framework in formulating what their particular supranatural entity is (a culture without demons cannot make up demons to explain a phenomena); but the concepts of Gods and spirits are spread across more or less every cultural framework, East to West.
People are empirical by nature. They get that shiver down their spine, they see something they don't comprehend or can't easily explain within their existing knowledge and framework, and then what? What do they ascribe it to? Inevitably, the answer is your collective local cultural framework of spirits/demons/Gods.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: By showing the causes for those instances. If a ghost is seen, as an example, can you show me if it was a hallucination, a mental condition, drugs, bad curry etc. Is there a measurable and/or recordable factor that caused that incident and can be identified as the cause? Or if there is no factor that can be identified, what do we move onto afterwards?
So in order to dismiss ghosts as a realistic prospect that could potentially exist; you require every single 'sighting' ever made to be disproved with a burden of evidence that could only be met in a controlled environment? Psych evaluations, cameras, etcetc. If not every one, what proportion? For what period of time? From what people?
Also, do you require this burden of proof for every imaginable item that it is likely does not exist before you discount it as being beyond the realm of rational believability?
Apologies, was in a meeting. But as Azrael says, pretty much yes. If you're to eliminate the idea 100%, you must present 100% infallible proof that something like ghosts can't exist. As long as you leave even 1%, you leave the possibility that they could exist.
So, do you accept the possibility of a teapot being in orbit around the sun? Or the possibility that I am in fact a god who controls the entire world through an army of invisible pink unicorns? Or the possibility that everything you know of is not real and just exists only in your mind?
You can't proof a negative, so if your position is that something can not be dismissed until its non-existence is proven 100%, you have to keep in account all of these possibilities as well.
Apologies, was in a meeting. But as Azrael says, pretty much yes. If you're to eliminate the idea 100%, you must present 100% infallible proof that something like ghosts can't exist. As long as you leave even 1%, you leave the possibility that they could exist.
Okay. So let's say I think that you are occasionally a small budgie named Kevin, because I had a really realistic dream about it once. Naturally, you'll disbelieve me. 'Budgies can't type or talk about ghost stories' you'll think after all. It flies in the face of all our existing stock of scientific knowledge of the world, you turning into a budgie from time to time.
But really, how can you prove it, 100%? How do you know that for even just say, maybe twenty seconds of the day, whenever you're unobserved, you're not transformed into Kevin the budgie? We just can't be certain. Therefore it is best to keep an open mind that in reality, you might actually be a budgie called Kevin for part of every day.
This is clearly a reasonable and open minded thing to do. And anybody who does disagree with this must be a closeminded person.
No, they do not. Ghost stories originate from unexplained sensory perceptions, hallucinations and the like. Religions, along with culture and society as a whole originate with people seeking to give meaning to their life. The origin of religion is a relatively well-studied and understood subject (and very interesting). There is no such thing as a 'stage' where people believe in something paranormal before that develops into "a full-blown religion". Rather, it is the reverse. People experience something weird they can not explain and then use the their frame of reference, which is formed by the religious-cultural complex of their society to makes sense of their experience. Religions do not form from 'ghost stories', 'ghost stories' form from religion (or rather the entire mythology of a given society. It is impossible to seperate religion from culture in general since they form and feed into one another).
If we're going to be completely honest here; you're generalising as much as I am and just as inaccurate (not to mention pushing several positions on me I never took). 'Religion' originates from several places, going from good old Hubbard's 'How much money can I make here' through to people extracting meaning from a hit sci-fi series and deciding to write a life code about it.
It is however, more or less established fact that there are plenty of cases of 'unexplained phenomena' being the key point for a supranatural religious entity which makes people conceptualise and believe in it. Without the sea, an (at the time) unexplainable phenomena which dashes sailors into rocks, there is no Poseidon. Without the sun, an (at the time unexplainable) phenomena which emits heat and light every day, there's no need for a giant beetle to push it across the sky. You get the drift. Sure, people use their existing cultural framework in formulating what their particular supranatural entity is (a culture without demons cannot make up demons to explain a phenomena); but the concepts of Gods and spirits are spread across more or less every cultural framework, East to West.
People are empirical by nature. They get that shiver down their spine, they see something they don't comprehend or can't easily explain within their existing knowledge and framework, and then what? What do they ascribe it to? Inevitably, the answer is your collective local cultural framework of spirits/demons/Gods.
Whether scientology qualifies as actually being a religion or not is heavily debated.
We are both generalising yes, in a debate that involves such a nebulous, all-encompassing and variable concept as 'religion', generalisation is impossible to avoid. Regardless of that, you have a good point in that the belief in some deities (particularly those linked to natural phenomena) or other concepts that some religions have and the belief in 'ghost' stories share a common characteristic in that they are both theories that people use to make sense of something they see or experience. But that is also where the similarities between religion and ghost stories end.
Apologies, was in a meeting. But as Azrael says, pretty much yes. If you're to eliminate the idea 100%, you must present 100% infallible proof that something like ghosts can't exist. As long as you leave even 1%, you leave the possibility that they could exist.
Okay. So let's say I think that you are occasionally a small budgie named Kevin, because I had a really realistic dream about it once. Naturally, you'll disbelieve me. 'Budgies can't type or talk about ghost stories' you'll think after all. It flies in the face of all our existing stock of scientific knowledge of the world, you turning into a budgie from time to time.
But really, how can you prove it, 100%? How do you know that for even just say, maybe twenty seconds of the day, whenever you're unobserved, you're not transformed into Kevin the budgie? We just can't be certain. Therefore it is best to keep an open mind that in reality, you might actually be a budgie called Kevin for part of every day.
This is clearly a reasonable and open minded thing to do. And anybody who does disagree with this must be a closeminded person.
Agree wholehearteadly. I don't even know what a budgie is, but I now understand that I turn into one occasionally.
I notice that those arguing that hauntings do not exist have offered nothing to the examples some have given here on there experiences, just general reasoning as to why someone couldn't have. I don't think Tony and others would have taken the time to tell their stories if they didn't believe what they saw. How about someone try picking apart one of those experiences? Or are you going to deny them of those too?
I'm really not. I'm simply swapping words around for equivalent words. Sure, the budgie example sounds absurd, but I'm just doing what the Flying Spaghetti Monster does for God. It has no lesser likelihood than ghosts or demons existing. You cannot disprove it 100% using the criteria provided to disprove ghosts/demons/etc.
Yet at the same time, you wouldn't insist that everyone should maintain an open mind about it, and dub people who looked at you funny as 'closeminded'. Because, y'know, they're suggesting you turn into a budgie in the early hours of the morning. Which is ridiculous.
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KTG17 wrote: I notice that those arguing that hauntings do not exist have offered nothing to the examples some have given here on there experiences, just general reasoning as to why someone couldn't have. I don't think Tony and others would have taken the time to tell their stories if they didn't believe what they saw. How about someone try picking apart one of those experiences? Or are you going to deny them of those too?
I wake up once a week to see demons and ghosts walking around my bedroom. Not 'I have a weird feeling' or the like, I literally see them. I've named some of them. What do you think that says about the reliability of empirical experience?
I'm really not. I'm simply swapping words around for equivalent words. Sure, the budgie example sounds absurd, but I'm just doing what the Flying Spaghetti Monster does for God. It has no lesser likelihood than ghosts or demons existing. You cannot disprove it 100% using the criteria provided to disprove ghosts/demons/etc.
Yet at the same time, you wouldn't insist that everyone should maintain an open mind about it, and dub people who looked at you funny as 'closeminded'. Because, y'know, they're suggesting you turn into a budgie in the early hours of the morning. Which is ridiculous.
I understand. And yeah I wouldn't call anyone who absolutely disbelieves this stuff "closeminded" because to believe in it you really need to experience it, imo. I totally get where they're coming from. When an absolute skeptic says "no way," we don't really have a way of debating it, so I don't. I can't prove my or my family's experiences, and you can't convince me it didn't happen the way I remember.
On the other hand, when someone calls a skeptic closeminded, it kind of makes me roll my eyes.
Ouze wrote: Isn't it weird how most paranormal stuff seemed to mostly stop happening once nearly everyone had a camera in their pocket all the time?
Must be the EM interference from electronics.
no but really ruining the fun. though obviously when people from ether sides of this takes it too far its no fun as well.
I agree. This seems to have meant to be a "let's share stories" thread. Not that I think what Ouze said did any ruining. Pretty tame and honestly got a chuckle
A guy I used to work with was convinced he saw a native American ghost in his backyard, though I could never quite tell when he was trying to pull my leg or when he was being serious.
Personally? No.
I mean the walls bleed on occasion but rationally there's only such much liquid volume unsealed plaster and lath can contain before you start to get some seepage.
I got told by a co worker once that he was in a car driving down a dual carriageway when they saw someone in the road, slammed on the brakes etc. When they got out there was nobody there. Apparently a car in the other lane did exactly the same thing at exactly the same time, all the occupants of both cars thought they saw someone.
Now I do believe he's sincere in that he thinks this is what he experienced but I don't believe anything paranormal happened. Could have been a trick of the light, could have been a wild animal that was fast and small enough to disappear as they were getting out of the car etc.
I myself just a few weeks ago was driving into a supermarket car park, out of the corner of my eye was aware of movement in the direction of the road so emergency stopped, but when I looked properly there was nothing there. I don't immediately leap to 'ghosts done it', I assume that the part of my brain that does the real-time processing on visual images simply reacted to a confused message and sent a warning down my nervous system.
You know, I did experience a paranormal activity once but I guess I surpressed it all these years. It was 1997 to be exact, and I was visiting some old relatives up north and on their extensive property lay an old, unused cabin. On previous trips we would hike to it and investigate its condition, but nothing was ever done as nature gradually wore down its paint and details. Aside from some cob webs and the desperate need of a good powerwashing, the structure was still sound .
So on this particular day I decided to hike with my dog to the cabin while the rest of the family was away. I packed a lunch consisting of one Peanut Butter-Jelly Sandwich, a 2 ounce bag of Sour Cream and Onion Lays potato chips, and a 'fun size' Snickers bar. It wasn't until later that I realized that I left the soda, a IBC Root Beer, on the kitchen counter.
It was late afternoon when we set out, and the weather was more cloudy than usual. Also the vegetation had grown a great deal since my last visit, making it harder to see ahead, and in some cases, growing over the trail. The journey took longer than expected, and upon reaching the clearing where the cabin stood, the sun had fallen behind the trees. My eyes panned the area one time before, to my surprise, my eyes fell on what appeared to be a nude, slender young women standing at the door way. My view of her was slightly abstructed by the shadows, and a moment later, the woman disappeared into the cabin and the front door shut.
I was stunned. No one informed me that the cabin was occupied, let alone by a women who seemed to enjoy prancing about in all her glory. I felt I was intruding at this point, and turned to go home, when suddenly a strange deep noise was heard through the forest. My dog whinned and took off running back the way we came, and I too considered flight, but the sky had grown even darker in those few minutes and I felt I would be lose my way, or worse, be exposed to this strange beast in the forest. I looked back at the cabin, giving thought to asking the young woman if I could stay until morning when I hoped the weather would permit and this creature was gone. The strange noise was heard again, and I ran to the door.
As my foot hit the porch in front the the door I noticed the door was ajar, as if inviting me inside, only it was dark inside except for a faint glow coeming from further back in the cabin. I knocked on the door and announced who I was and asked if I could come in, ans as I did so, the force of the knock moved the door back, and there it was
KTG17 wrote: You know, I did experience a paranormal activity once but I guess I surpressed it all these years. It was 1997 to be exact, and I was visiting some old relatives up north and on their extensive property lay an old, unused cabin. On previous trips we would hike to it and investigate its condition, but nothing was ever done as nature gradually wore down its paint and details. Aside from some cob webs and the desperate need of a good powerwashing, the structure was still sound .
So on this particular day I decided to hike with my dog to the cabin while the rest of the family was away. I packed a lunch consisting of one Peanut Butter-Jelly Sandwich, a 2 ounce bag of Sour Cream and Onion Lays potato chips, and a 'fun size' Snickers bar. It wasn't until later that I realized that I left the soda, a IBC Root Beer, on the kitchen counter.
It was late afternoon when we set out, and the weather was more cloudy than usual. Also the vegetation had grown a great deal since my last visit, making it harder to see ahead, and in some cases, growing over the trail. The journey took longer than expected, and upon reaching the clearing where the cabin stood, the sun had fallen behind the trees. My eyes panned the area one time before, to my surprise, my eyes fell on what appeared to be a nude, slender young women standing at the door way. My view of her was slightly abstructed by the shadows, and a moment later, the woman disappeared into the cabin and the front door shut.
I was stunned. No one informed me that the cabin was occupied, let alone by a women who seemed to enjoy prancing about in all her glory. I felt I was intruding at this point, and turned to go home, when suddenly a strange deep noise was heard through the forest. My dog whinned and took off running back the way we came, and I too considered flight, but the sky had grown even darker in those few minutes and I felt I would be lose my way, or worse, be exposed to this strange beast in the forest. I looked back at the cabin, giving thought to asking the young woman if I could stay until morning when I hoped the weather would permit and this creature was gone. The strange noise was heard again, and I ran to the door.
As my foot hit the porch in front the the door I noticed the door was ajar, as if inviting me inside, only it was dark inside except for a faint glow coeming from further back in the cabin. I knocked on the door and announced who I was and asked if I could come in, ans as I did so, the force of the knock moved the door back, and there it was
Omg, he did not finish the story... the ghosts must have gotten him!
The suspense is real. Great story.
Ketara wrote: What do you think that says about the reliability of empirical experience?
It means your experiences aren't the same as everyone else's.
Exactamundo! Which in turn means that empirical experiences are inherently unreliable. If you've ever been to a magic show you'll see them do wonderful things that appear to defy the laws of physics; but there's always a logical explanation behind the curtain, whatever your eyes or ears may have told you.
I understand. And yeah I wouldn't call anyone who absolutely disbelieves this stuff "closeminded" because to believe in it you really need to experience it, imo. I totally get where they're coming from. When an absolute skeptic says "no way," we don't really have a way of debating it, so I don't. I can't prove my or my family's experiences, and you can't convince me it didn't happen the way I remember.
On the other hand, when someone calls a skeptic closeminded, it kind of makes me roll my eyes....
Thing is, I've half a dozen 'paranormal experiences' from other things than sleep. I would never say that someone hadn't seen something. But as said with the magic show above, I also wouldn't jump to the automatic conclusion that 'it was ghosts/demons/spirits', any more than I would 'it was Harry Potter waving his wand'. I just accept that something happened, I don't know what, and I either don't care enough or don't have the opportunity to find out. The paranormal aspect just isn't really an option I entertain, because like our budgie example, it's so unrealistic as a possibility that it's not worth seriously considering.
I agree. This seems to have meant to be a "let's share stories" thread. Not that I think what Ouze said did any ruining. Pretty tame and honestly got a chuckle
Yeah, my intent here isn't to ruin anyone's fun. I've made my point, I'll clam up on it for now.
Why not adopt the Fortean position of being a willing disbeliever? To me, it’s the only way to be.
After all, for hundreds of years it was a ‘fact’ that man would never fly. And for a while, it was a ‘fact’ that travelling of certain speeds would suffocate us. As Science and Technology advanced, we found differently.
So by all means. Your skepticism is valid and well deserved. But keep an open mind. Study the claim. Study the studies. Pick holes in the conclusions. Question the evidence. Offer those explanations.
Just....don’t start from the position of ‘clearly not Ghosties’ etc. That’s a fool’s position to my mind, because you’re already coming to a semi-conclusion based on your own bias.
I was present at an undersea, unexplained mass sponge migration.
Other than that not really, although did get poltergeisted off my push bike a few times cycling past the 'haunted' pub, you really think the dead would have better things to do than annoy tired half cut people trying to navigate a badly maintained cycle path at two in the morning
So the door swung open and there was this old hag in there and I was like "Hey were did that hot chic go?" and she was like, "Oh that was me, I just cast a spell to look like that so I could entice you to come in. I haven't had any company in awhile and would love to talk for awhile."
I was totally like 'dude this blows' and honestly a little freaked out. This old lady made herself look like a model and I had no idea how. And then this overwhelming smell of urine came over me and I almost barfed and asked "What is that smell?" even know I kinda knew what it was.
"Oh, that's from my little Mamooshka." And with that, out from one of the end tables came out this three legged dog with no hair and one eye, pissing on the carpet as he walked. I was like 'wtf' and the lady said, "Don't mind him. The renters said no pets so I have to keep him inside all the time." Renters? I couldn't believe Uncle Frank even rented this place out to begin with, let alone her.
I started trying to come up with a plan. There was no way I was staying overnight in the cabin with this old lady and this weird-ass dog pissing all over the place. I asked if I could use her phone but she didn't have one. I then asked about the strange sounds coming from the forest outside, and what she said gave me goosebumps...
"Oh, you don't want anything to do with that. Better to wait till morning before you head back home." My heart sank.
The next thing I knew she pulled a game of Yatzee and set it on the table, then went over to the fireplace and poked around the couple of logs that were barely burning, letting out an old lady fart
Thing is, I've half a dozen 'paranormal experiences' from other things than sleep. I would never say that someone hadn't seen something. But as said with the magic show above, I also wouldn't jump to the automatic conclusion that 'it was ghosts/demons/spirits', any more than I would 'it was Harry Potter waving his wand'. I just accept that something happened, I don't know what, and I either don't care enough or don't have the opportunity to find out. The paranormal aspect just isn't really an option I entertain, because like our budgie example, it's so unrealistic as a possibility that it's not worth seriously considering.
Wait, now you're telling me I DON'T turn into a budgie? Make up your mind!
I myself just a few weeks ago was driving into a supermarket car park, out of the corner of my eye was aware of movement in the direction of the road so emergency stopped, but when I looked properly there was nothing there. I don't immediately leap to 'ghosts done it', I assume that the part of my brain that does the real-time processing on visual images simply reacted to a confused message and sent a warning down my nervous system.
I'm not sure why you would think that was a ghost anyway. People see things out of the corner of their eyes all the time, I've never considered it to be a supernatural happening, or used it as a ghost story anecdote.
Jacksmiles wrote: I'm not sure why you would think that was a ghost anyway. People see things out of the corner of their eyes all the time, I've never considered it to be a supernatural happening, or used it as a ghost story anecdote.
Specifically you're right. To be honest I'd forgotten about it completely and it just came to mind when I was recalling the older story I was told at work, I didn't really lay it out properly.
The broader point is that the human brain takes in a lot of sensory information and tries its best to make sense of things and map out conclusions based on known premises. When people post Victorian images with ghostly reflected faces etc it's just our brains identifying a vaguely facial pattern and filling in the blanks of how that face might be there.
When my family lived in the UK my mom and sister insisted the house we rented was haunted by a woman in white (like the most generic English ghost ever). My dad and I never noticed anything.
Other than that, nope. I do enjoy a good ghost story though. Damn shame most horror films/tv shows are garbage. Books are better but incredibly predictable.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: After all, for hundreds of years it was a ‘fact’ that man would never fly. And for a while, it was a ‘fact’ that travelling of certain speeds would suffocate us. As Science and Technology advanced, we found differently.
This is an annoying misconception and I wish it would die. Flight was an engineering problem. Anyone who ever saw a bird knew it was possible to fly, it was just a question of coming up with the right design. It all came down to boring things like "we don't have an engine with a high enough power to weight ratio yet", not a revolution in science.
Ghosts and such are not comparable. Evidence is flimsy at best, no viable mechanism or explanation has even been proposed, and the claims contradict known science. Proof would be a massive revolution in multiple fields, overturning a ton of evidence and well-established theories. The two situations are just not comparable at all.
Ghosts and such are not comparable. Evidence is flimsy at best,
Perhaps, on a case by case basis it could be argued that the evidence is flimsy. But the sheer volume of it, dating back to a time when the idea that it was somehow down to suggestion is impossible because cultures were geographically isolated and communication was impossible, intimates that there is something to it. Now, I don't personally believe it is the unquiet spirits of the dead, but I do believe there are phenomena that are real that have been historically attributed to them.
no viable mechanism or explanation has even been proposed,
What, you mean it's unexplained?
and the claims contradict known science. Proof would be a massive revolution in multiple fields, overturning a ton of evidence and well-established theories.
Well, I'm sure that makes it impossible because such a thing has never occurred and couldn't possibly happen in the future.
So the door swung open and there was this old hag in there and I was like "Hey were did that hot chic go?" and she was like, "Oh that was me, I just cast a spell to look like that so I could entice you to come in. I haven't had any company in awhile and would love to talk for awhile."
I was totally like 'dude this blows' and honestly a little freaked out. This old lady made herself look like a model and I had no idea how. And then this overwhelming smell of urine came over me and I almost barfed and asked "What is that smell?" even know I kinda knew what it was.
"Oh, that's from my little Mamooshka." And with that, out from one of the end tables came out this three legged dog with no hair and one eye, pissing on the carpet as he walked. I was like 'wtf' and the lady said, "Don't mind him. The renters said no pets so I have to keep him inside all the time." Renters? I couldn't believe Uncle Frank even rented this place out to begin with, let alone her.
I started trying to come up with a plan. There was no way I was staying overnight in the cabin with this old lady and this weird-ass dog pissing all over the place. I asked if I could use her phone but she didn't have one. I then asked about the strange sounds coming from the forest outside, and what she said gave me goosebumps...
"Oh, you don't want anything to do with that. Better to wait till morning before you head back home." My heart sank.
The next thing I knew she pulled a game of Yatzee and set it on the table, then went over to the fireplace and poked around the couple of logs that were barely burning, letting out an old lady fart
You played Yahtzee with a witch? Did you learn any magic from her? You'd probably have to do some really gross things or sell your soul or something like that, but being able to cast spells is totally worth it imho.
Ghosts and such are not comparable. Evidence is flimsy at best,
Perhaps, on a case by case basis it could be argued that the evidence is flimsy. But the sheer volume of it, dating back to a time when the idea that it was somehow down to suggestion is impossible because cultures were geographically isolated and communication was impossible, intimates that there is something to it. Now, I don't personally believe it is the unquiet spirits of the dead, but I do believe there are phenomena that are real that have been historically attributed to them.
Thing is, the stories and reported phenomena (and the explanations for them) vary wildly from culture to culture, suggesting that it is linked to Human minds rather than anything supernatural. Why would the supernatural adhere to Human cultural boundaries after all?
Ouze wrote: Isn't it weird how most paranormal stuff seemed to mostly stop happening once nearly everyone had a camera in their pocket all the time?
You might want to poke around on YouTube a bit; there's plenty of photos and videos of various ghostly oddities.
Which isn't to say that they are, indeed, ghosts; just that there are videos of what appear to be ghosts. Could be faked (I assume many are), could be tricks of the lighting (also quite likely) or trick of the mind interpreting what is there (many are pretty darn vague, after all). Or maybe...
But there's not 100% proof of any particular explanation for most of them.
Compounding the issue is that ANY evidence that is gathered is dismissed out of hand immediately. It doesn't matter what corroborates the footage, how it could tie in to actual history of the location, OR any attempts to recreate the moment in an effort to debunk it with no success at all of making it happen in the same way. All that matters is that it "can't" exist, therefore the evidence is disregarded.
Same thing goes about life on other planets. We've found microbes on other celestial objects, which is indeed indicative of life coming from planets other than our own. But most "experts" on any sort of forum you find will immediately denounce the thought that life could exist. Press them with that evidence, and then it's INTELLIGENT life can't exist elsewhere.
I’ll finish part 3 and the exciting conclusion to my story tomorrow, but in the meantime all those who think ghosts don’t exist go ahead and watch this:
I bet you won’t because you’re a bunch of cowards.
Just Tony wrote: Compounding the issue is that ANY evidence that is gathered is dismissed out of hand immediately. It doesn't matter what corroborates the footage, how it could tie in to actual history of the location, OR any attempts to recreate the moment in an effort to debunk it with no success at all of making it happen in the same way. All that matters is that it "can't" exist, therefore the evidence is disregarded.
Same thing goes about life on other planets. We've found microbes on other celestial objects, which is indeed indicative of life coming from planets other than our own. But most "experts" on any sort of forum you find will immediately denounce the thought that life could exist. Press them with that evidence, and then it's INTELLIGENT life can't exist elsewhere.
I find BOTH skeptics close minded.
Pfft. I'm not close minded at all. Show me peer reviewed proof of the afterlife / ghosts, and I'll believe in ghosts. Until then I gotta say "seems unlikely".
So far as there being life somewhere else in the universe, it just seems statistically likely it must have happened somewhere. Even if thing A had to happen for event B to unfold, and the chances of each sequence of events happening is a million to one, there is just so much space then statistically it probably happened a few times - 1×10^24 stars? I'll take those odds.
Conversely, though, I just think the universe is so vast that the chances of that happening, that there is intelligent life anywhere near us, at the same time as us, also falls pretty firmly into the "seems unlikely" camp. But I moved the goalposts a little to "intelligent life: - I think we'll surely find some kind of proof of extraterrestrial life at some point, single cell organisms or alien fungus or something.
As for original topic 2 of my workmates(well 1 is now ex) swear the workplace is haunted. In particular the sauna they swear gives them creeps. Me? I'm having good laugh at them. Only odd thing I sense is the "crack-crack" sounds occasionally but that just means cooler has ice formed in it and requires pushing button so it starts to melt.
Azreal13 wrote: Perhaps, on a case by case basis it could be argued that the evidence is flimsy. But the sheer volume of it, dating back to a time when the idea that it was somehow down to suggestion is impossible because cultures were geographically isolated and communication was impossible, intimates that there is something to it. Now, I don't personally believe it is the unquiet spirits of the dead, but I do believe there are phenomena that are real that have been historically attributed to them.
Garbage doesn't become credible evidence by sheer volume alone. In fact the sheer volume of "evidence" rather strongly argues against supernatural nonsense by removing the "it's a rare event, too rare to capture better evidence" excuse. If supernatural events exist and are as common as the "evidence" attempts to argue then why don't we have any better evidence to go with it? Why do supernatural entities/events invariably disappear under controlled conditions where they could be proved beyond any reasonable doubt?
What, you mean it's unexplained?
Yes, it's unexplained, and that's a huge problem. We knew flight was possible, and we had some theories for how it might work. Even if the explanation wasn't 100% complete we had enough of a foundation to begin the engineering work and fill in the rest. But with ghosts and such we know nothing. We don't have even the beginnings of a credible explanation, we're supposed to just take them as true and hope that someday maybe somehow someone will try to explain what's going on.
Well, I'm sure that makes it impossible because such a thing has never occurred and couldn't possibly happen in the future.
It really hasn't. I can't think of anything in the history of science that has overturned such a huge volume of existing and well-proven knowledge like the existence of ghosts would.
Ghosts and such are not comparable. Evidence is flimsy at best,
Perhaps, on a case by case basis it could be argued that the evidence is flimsy. But the sheer volume of it, dating back to a time when the idea that it was somehow down to suggestion is impossible because cultures were geographically isolated and communication was impossible, intimates that there is something to it. Now, I don't personally believe it is the unquiet spirits of the dead, but I do believe there are phenomena that are real that have been historically attributed to them.
Can I have some examples of these cultures and their supernatural beliefs please? The number of societies that are so isolated as to have no contact with anyone else has been vanishingly small as far back as we can ascertain. Far, far further back than we have any idea whatsoever about their cultural perceptions of supernature.
Most cultures have some ideas about worlds beyond the temporal and physical, but most of the similarities we see in belief in prehistoric populations are similarities between interpretations postulated by modern onlookers and may be entirely unrelated to those exhibited by the cultures under study. Once we get into historic periods, it actually takes rather a long time before people want to write about spirits or other supernatural actors that have any interaction with humans outside of structured cultic actions and the entity never seems to be seen or interacted with physically in these contexts*. In text, at least, people just have transactional relationships with deities who live in specific buildings that cross over an awful lot with political and economic institutions.
People should stop making blanket statements about ghosts having been part of human experience since humans experienced. This is utterly baseless.
*In a sense they are physically present and active, but in the same way that people will say a God is present in a church.
Why not adopt the Fortean position of being a willing disbeliever? To me, it’s the only way to be.
After all, for hundreds of years it was a ‘fact’ that man would never fly. And for a while, it was a ‘fact’ that travelling of certain speeds would suffocate us. As Science and Technology advanced, we found differently.
So by all means. Your skepticism is valid and well deserved. But keep an open mind. Study the claim. Study the studies. Pick holes in the conclusions. Question the evidence. Offer those explanations.
Just....don’t start from the position of ‘clearly not Ghosties’ etc. That’s a fool’s position to my mind, because you’re already coming to a semi-conclusion based on your own bias.
Or, alternatively, it's the only reasonable position until someone provides some verifiable, repeatable, experimental evidence that such things are even actually possible. Which they've not. Ever. They've claimed to, thousands of times, and it has never once panned out when subjected to even the most basic levels of scientific rigour. What has been proven, scientifically, are all the myriad ways our brains can fool us or be fooled into believing and perceiving just about anything. Continuing to adopt a position of "willing disbelief" in such circumstances is just bizarre.
When have they failed to prove the claim enough times? How long must people continue to treat the idea seriously in the absence of any new evidence? At what point is it OK to just sigh wearily and walk away, or have a bit of fun laughing at the wonky-brains, like we do with flat-earthers or "The Queen Is A Lizard Person" types? I'd say the point has long, long passed. It passed decades ago when the LSD-addled hippy-dippy generation of academics spent years trying and failing to prove the existence of the paranormal. It is, quite firmly, dead. An ex-parrot of an hypothesis.
The phrase "keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out" applies.
A Fortean is sceptical. But is open to being proven wrong - or at least exhausting all possible rational explanations.
The main trouble with the paranormal are those trying to make a buck out of. There's a special level of contempt I hold for 'spirit mediums' and other 'psychics'.
I mean, if telepathy is possible, surely those able would be committed in asylums, unable to shut out all those voices? If that ropey thinking was right, we'd have no way to tell, because those blessed/cursed would be utterly hatstand.
Fascinating subject. I would like to ask of you guys that belive in the paranormal, or at least in the plausibility of it: Where does that belif come from? I'm assuming that most of you are not religious or part of a religion that belives in ghosts, so I am curious as to why you give credence to the possibility of ghosts.
You see, in my mind, belif in the paranormal is not something you can belive on its own. There has to be a coresponding set of belifs with it.
I for example am a Catholic, and belive among other things in the existence of demons. The reason I believe in something as flimsy as that, despite never experiencing anything or being able to prove it, is because I find the core of my religion to stand on very firm and proovable ground, and the rest is just something that I have to accept because a very trustworthy person said it.
Some of you don't have that "firm ground". So how does your belif that you are a reasonable person make peace with your belif in ghosts?
Genuine question, not trying to sound mean in case it turns out like that.
It really hasn't. I can't think of anything in the history of science that has overturned such a huge volume of existing and well-proven knowledge like the existence of ghosts would.
Kind of feel the need to emphasise this. Since scientific method has been a thing busily establishing the underlying mechanics of the world around us; there's been some pretty revolutionary stuff, sure. Everything from the theory of gravity to the mind boggling nature of sub-atomic particles. But working on the basis of demons/ghosts being real would require us to overturn literally every single branch of established fact; from basic human biology to the fundamental laws of energy and particle physics. The ramifications are literally endless. I don't think there's ever been a single scientific paradigm overturned that had a fraction of that sort of impact.
That's without going into the consequences for the softer subjects (philosophy, history, etc). Something like that would be the first step to proving organised religion right, we'd have to re-evaluate what events happened in the past due to the involvement of supernatural aspects, etcetc.
Seriously. Something like that would absolutely turn about six hundred years of human progress and enlightenment on its head; 40K chaos style. Be careful what you wish for, as the horror story saying goes.
To go back to the Fortean stuff (sorry. I know Dobbin is departed, but one last visit).
The monthly magazine, Fortean Times, makes for an often fascinating read.
On the subject of belief and the supernatural, there was one article which attempted to explain it. Essentially, the thinking there (which I believe is cribbed from a published paper?) is it can be an evolutionary advantage.
Spooky stuff happens, we go into fight or flight mode. If we're walking in a Wood, and see something that looks like it might be a bear, those who assumed it was and legged it survived - those that went to investigate, maybe not so much, because sometimes it was indeed a bear.
As a species, our minds are very good at filling in the blanks, and often with worst case scenarios. So it's all tied in. Who knows what stimulus it is that causes us to 'see' ghosts, or experience the paranormal.
Then there are other branches of the supernatural, including Cyptozoology. There, many former Cryptids (including Gorillas) are now know to definitely exist. The science there is to examine the claims. Bigfoot or Yeti hairs are typically Bear fur - albeit from unusual specimens. It's now thought that Cyclops' were based on misinterpretation of Mammoth skulls.
Dive in. It's a pretty interesting area. And remember. It's not trying to prove anything.
A Fortean is sceptical. But is open to being proven wrong - or at least exhausting all possible rational explanations.
The main trouble with the paranormal are those trying to make a buck out of. There's a special level of contempt I hold for 'spirit mediums' and other 'psychics'.
I mean, if telepathy is possible, surely those able would be committed in asylums, unable to shut out all those voices? If that ropey thinking was right, we'd have no way to tell, because those blessed/cursed would be utterly hatstand.
Well, sure, you have to remain open to being proven wrong. That doesn't mean you should, by default, treat all claims with the same level of skepticism. Reiki, flat earth, hollow earth, psychics, ghosties and ghoulies and goblins etc etc don't really deserve to be entertained at all at this point, it really is safe to dismiss the "evidence" presented out of hand, because it's always the same "evidence" that's been presented and debunked a thousand times before. In the same way that after arguing with the same twitter troll for the hundredth time, it's probably safe to conclude they're arguing in bad faith and just dismiss anything they say from that point on.
The day someone making claims about the paranormal presents an actual independently repeatable controlled experiment that demonstrates the things they're discussing could even potentially exist is the day I'll start bothering to treat the subject with anything other than disinterest or a bit of light derisive mocking. As it stands they can't even produce a hypothetical construct that stands up to basic logic.
I’ve had sleep paralysis a few times. Only had the hallucinations once though, and it was more formless than horrifying. And I haven’t had paralysis in many years. But there’s no question in my mind that it explains many paranormal stories.
I don’t believe that ghosts exist. I’m open to being proven wrong though. I’d love to visit a haunted house and test it. I’m not going to be a jagoff and act as though I understand the full nature of the universe. *shrug*
Power Elephant wrote: Fascinating subject. I would like to ask of you guys that belive in the paranormal, or at least in the plausibility of it: Where does that belif come from? I'm assuming that most of you are not religious or part of a religion that belives in ghosts, so I am curious as to why you give credence to the possibility of ghosts.
You see, in my mind, belif in the paranormal is not something you can belive on its own. There has to be a coresponding set of belifs with it.
Why would I have to be religious? Which religion would be required anyway, as there are so many. Maybe these things are naturally occurring. Especially regarding events where the haunting is a play back of a previous event, as opposed to an intelligent possession.
As far as all the reporting sightings and hoaxes, I imagine that hauntings do occur, they are probably more common than one might think, although most go unnoticed. And then there are a whole bunch of others who aren't sure of what they might see and are quick to call it a ghost. I don't doubt some events are as they are described, and many others are not. Its the same with UFOs (using this loosely here as a craft piloted by aliens). I don't doubt that not only have we been visited before, but probably at various times in mankind's history, but the vast majority of what is reported as a UFO are influenced by the idea of them and conclude its the same. The same could be with most hauntings.
I do believe all of the strange phenomena typically has its origins in some actual event. It may have been misunderstood or incorrectly concluded, but something happened. And then there was a whole bunch of false copycats that followed. While someone mentioned above, the sheer numbers of reported events does carry some weight, even if most of it is garbage. Anything as small as .01% being true would mean something was capable of happening. Is there a lot to filter through? Sure, but because you can write off one instance doesn't mean that the same logic can be applied to all of the others. We simply do no know, nor can prove in each case what exactly occurred, even scientifically. Well, especially scientifically as science needs a controlled experiment to prove it one way or another.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: To go back to the Fortean stuff (sorry. I know Dobbin is departed, but one last visit).
The monthly magazine, Fortean Times, makes for an often fascinating read.
On the subject of belief and the supernatural, there was one article which attempted to explain it. Essentially, the thinking there (which I believe is cribbed from a published paper?) is it can be an evolutionary advantage.
Bloch 2008, probably? It's the usual 'evolutionary bonus' one given to undergrads as an intro to belief in anthropology/archaeology classes.
The game of Yahtzee had become a game of whits. The forest crone had managed to score every category in the upper section in the order they were listed on the playsheet, while I scrambled to muster what I could. As the final rounds neared I estimated to be down by 110 points with two turns left. The Yahtzee gods smiled at me as the old hag finally came up with nothing of any value, and settled on entering in some low value into the chance box.
I picked up the dice and rolled; egad! Five 6s! Yahztee! I added the 50 points to my score sheet. If I could just get another Yahtzee in the final round, I could defeat this old witch and perhaps get some sleep before returning home in the morning. She looked me in the eye and picked up the tumbler, shaking it briefly, and casting the dice.
Nothing!
She picked up a few of the dice and rolled again.
Nothing again! And she let out a curse.
She picked up all of the dice this time, gave me an evil look that I will not soon forget, and cast the dice for one final time...
Nothing!
She slammed the tumbler on the table. Her chance to put the game away had failed. Now if I could just score another Yahtzee, no matter how poor the odds where, I would get 100 bonus points and win the game.
I added the dice to the tumbler, exchanged an intense stare with the witch as I rattled the dice, and just as I rolled...
Earthquake!
There was a goddamn earthquake! Followed by lightning and a hail storm, then lava came out of the ground around the cabin! I said, "Enough of this gak, yo, I be outta here!" and took off running for home. Along the way I encountered my dog, and together we finished the last mile or so together.
Once home, I encountered my family who had been talking to the local sheriff about my disappearance. I told them all that had occurred, from the strange woman to the beast of the forest, and my mom leaned forward and said, "Well, that will teach you to go off into the woods alone!" And everyone laughed like they did at the end of the Super Friends cartoon.
Because, as the introduction of a book of ghost stories I had as a kid points out, if only one of the stories is true it proves the existence of ghosts.
Ghost stories are great fun. But that is all they are, stories. The burden of proof rests on those claiming ghosts exist. Show me legitimate evidence for ghosts. Real life physical evidence. Not a blurry photo or a "whisper" from a video. Get a good picture. Hold a recorded conversation. Do something.
Dreadwinter wrote: Ghost stories are great fun. But that is all they are, stories. The burden of proof rests on those claiming ghosts exist. Show me legitimate evidence for ghosts. Real life physical evidence. Not a blurry photo or a "whisper" from a video. Get a good picture. Hold a recorded conversation. Do something.
Photos and videos can be faked and therefor will always be called not good enough for some.
I do not think ghosts or UFOs or monsters are real..... but I have more fun suspending my disbelief for a bit and indulging. This does not make my faith in science weaker, but it does make my imagination and creativity stronger.
Now can we just have a fething thread where we tell fun spook stories and not serious it to death? If you don't want to play in the pool.....
Dreadwinter wrote: Ghost stories are great fun. But that is all they are, stories. The burden of proof rests on those claiming ghosts exist. Show me legitimate evidence for ghosts. Real life physical evidence. Not a blurry photo or a "whisper" from a video. Get a good picture. Hold a recorded conversation. Do something.
Photos and videos can be faked and therefor will always be called not good enough for some.
We’re getting so good at it that there’s concern video could lose court admissibility. Some of the technology coming down the pipe for taking voice and video is so advanced that it’s difficult for expert analysts to tell them apart from the real thing.
Easy E wrote: Now can we just have a fething thread where we tell fun spook stories and not serious it to death? If you don't want to play in the pool.....
Easy E wrote: I do not think ghosts or UFOs or monsters are real..... but I have more fun suspending my disbelief for a bit and indulging. This does not make my faith in science weaker, but it does make my imagination and creativity stronger.
Now can we just have a fething thread where we tell fun spook stories and not serious it to death? If you don't want to play in the pool.....
But that makes no sense. Fiction is fiction, I like supernatural fiction, I have no trouble reading it or imagining it. "Hauntings" and other paranormal stuff are people making claims that real things exist and events actually happen, arguing you should suspend disbelief and "indulge" that is like arguing you should suspend disbelief and indulge Creationism, or the various "inside job/false flag" conspiracy theories, or Geocentrism. You're "indulging" a belief that a lot of people hold in utter and complete seriousness, and by so doing reinforcing that belief, which isn't a good thing given people prone to one strand of this sort of nonsense also often tend to be prone to others, even dangerous ones like anti-vax and other topical but no longer discussable here things.
Paranormal stuff is harmless so long as everyone's "in on the joke", but many aren't, many genuinely believe it, and plenty of them won't be able to tell that you're only "indulging" the subject ironically.
I think after three pages of people jumping on it; anyone on the fence will be dissuaded by now, and anyone not isn't going to be. Let the ghost stories roll!
I would like to share another memory I have that I seemed to supress over the years due to the horrific nature of the experience. It was 2003, and I was driving through the backroads of Georgia making my way to the Smokey Mountains, when suddenly my car began to show signs of mechanical issues. At that moment the road I was driving on forked, and at this point, foolishly driving without a map, I was unsure which direction I should take. Right at the end of the road was a fruit stand, and I could see what appeared to be an old southern farmer smoking a pipe behind the stand. As it was getting late in the day, and I would need both a motel and a service station to look at my car, I pulled into the fruit stand to ask for directions.
"That car is in need of service." the old man said as I exited the car.
"Yes, I was hoping you could provide me with directions to a suitable place to take it, with nearby lodgings." I replied.
"Well there is such a place, quite nearby actually, but I am not quite sure you would want to head in that direction this late in the evening. You see, the service station will be closed by the time you get there, as the feller who owns it, Angus, closes early, and you would have to stay overnight in the motel next door, which some say is haunted."
I did my best to hide my smile at the notion of a haunted motel, but as the location seemed to ideal considering my situation, so I asked for directions and was then on my way, but not before talking the old man down from $1.50 for a half a dozen peaches to a $1.10.
I followed the old man's directions and soon came to a small town, or village you might call it, containing nothing but a post office, gas/service station, and the motel. All but the motel were closed.
I exited the car and opened the door to the motel lobby, and what I saw next I will never be able to soon forget...
Well here are the things that happened to me that made me believe that there is a possibility of paranormal activity:
I grew up in a house that my mom and step-dad (I just call him dad) built shortly after they got married (this was the early 90's) so it certainly wasn't an old house or anything. Several things happened there, but the ones that stand out the most:
I was playing with Legos (Legos? Lego? whatever, I was playing with more than 1...) in my room. I was one of those kids that kept their Legos very organized, and had them separated by color in gallon size zip lock bags. I had emptied out one of the bags and the bag itself was in front of my pile/project about 2 feet away from me when it flew up, hovered like a slowly falling leaf for a moment about 3 feet off the ground, then fell back to the floor. The A/C in the home was vented from the ceiling across the room, and it was the way it sort of hovered there for a second before falling back down that really spooked me. This happened quite a bit in this house, things would be in different spots than where you left them, but this was the only time I actually saw anything move on its own.
Another time my step siblings and I were playing "Snoopy" (Hide and go seek in the dark) and I was hiding under the bed in my brothers room. I had a straight line of sight to my sisters room through the door across the hallway (diagonal) and I remember, in the very weak light coming through the shades on her window) watching a small figure that had a block-ish shaped head walk from behind her door and stand there looking out into the hallway. It didn't have much of a defined shape per say, like it was fuzzy around the edges, but I remember the head and its size.. I blinked a few times thinking it could have been my brother since he was about that size and my mind was trying to rationalize things, but then he came out of my room, which was next to my sisters, and into his room, where I was. I promptly freaked the F out, and got out from under the bed to turn on the light and when I looked up from crawling out to where that shape was standing it was gone. I still get shivers when I think about this today, and I can still remember it like it just happened last night. I freaked my parents out a bit too because how badly it freaked me out, although my dad was a bit pissed because I was scaring my siblings.
All kinds of crazy things happened in this house, and you could not be alone in the living room without getting a feeling of absolute dread. I talked with my mom much later in life about it, because after the thing in my sisters room I didn't tell them about stuff anymore, and she told me she experienced a lot of the same things. She always felt like someone was watching her from the skylights in the living room but she would basically be frozen to the couch when it happened (my experience with it to). Come to find out, after I got a piece of mail with a ladies name on it I didn't recognize, but had the same last name as a guy I knew from school, that his grandmother had lived on the property before my dad purchased it from her estate and she had died in a house fire that burned the house to the foundation. My dad had the foundation torn up before we moved into his trailer when my parents relationship got to that point. Related? I dunno, but the house was built directly over that foundation.
More recently, within the last 5 years, I stayed over at a buddies house after a party. I was the DD (I always am, I don't really drink hardly) so I was completely sober. I woke up at about 2 am and got up to go to the bathroom. To get to the bathroom you had to walk from the living room, where my wife and I were, past the kitchen, and down the hallway. Nothing really of note on the way there, but on the way back, every cabinet door and drawer in the kitchen was open (was only in the bathroom for 2 or 3 minutes). I experienced a WTF moment and woke my inebriated wife up to ask if she was looking for something in the kitchen, and obviously she wasn't. I then went and woke my buddy and his wife up and asked them the same and they told me that it happens all the time. Usually they just leave it and by the morning they are all closed again, or I could go close them.. I wasn't sleeping anymore so I just closed the doors and drawers and watched TV until it was time to wake the wife up again to leave. They moved out a few months later and had all kinds of crazy stories about things happening at that house, but that was the only thing I had the pleasure to experience.
Anyway, I don't claim to know any scientific stuff about this, but I do know what I experienced, and absolutely think the possibility of hauntings and paranormal activity is a thing.
So the next morning I met with Angus, the guy who owned the service station, and it turned out it was just bad gas in my tank, so he flushed it out, put some new gas in it, and off I went. No car problems after that.
Positive claim of non-existence puts the burden of proof on you. Far safer to say "there is no evidence for their existence".
Safer to be sure, but alternately I’d argue ghost hunters and paranormal investigators have done a fine and dandy job of proving non-existance such that I can safely assert it. If there was anything to find, some physical force or property outside the human mind anyway, one of the nuts would have found it by now but I suppose it’s possible the ghosts are all jus camera shy /sarcasm
On the other hand ghost stories hardly need to be true to be fun so...how bout those haunted castles? When I was in England as a wee ten year old I loved the haunted castle tours. Europe has way better ghost stories imo. Comes with history I think. The US it’s alsays some silly Indiain massacre or colonial tragedy.
*sigh* got really excited to read 4 pages of other people's experiences, and instead got a bunch of back and forth about the scientific plausibility of ghosts.
I've had a couple experiences, nothing too crazy. Full disclaimer here, I believe some people are more sensitive to this sort of thing than others. Like KTG17 in the first post, I haven't seen/felt much myself but I've been around others that have.
Anyway, when my girlfriend and I used to live with my mom, we would always notice strange gak happening in the house whenever she left town. This was something that happened frequently as my mom liked to spend her summers back home in Turkey, so my girlfriend and I wound up alone in the house for very extended periods of time. We would hear knocks at night, but from inside the house like someone was standing in the hallway and tapped the wall to my bedroom. There was a day we came home and I found the TV remote right on the floor in front of the TV, which was doubly odd because we always left the remote on the coffee table several feet away. One night we heard the sound of a plate spinning on the counter, as if someone tipped it and let go.
Probably the most unsettling occurrence at this house was after I finished a session of Skyrim, got up from my chair and crawled into bed with my lady - a few seconds after I had left the chair we both heard it move. Not just the squeak of the wheels, but like someone grabbed the back and wiggled it. One night while I was at work my girlfriend called me and was utterly terrified because she saw someone sitting on the arm of the sofa when she walked into the house. She stayed locked in our bedroom until I got home. Her description of her sounded a lot like my aunt, who my mom was very close to and had passed away recently when this happened. It also kinda made sense to me that if our poltergeist was her, it made sense that weird things would happen when she left town.
Before that particular house, I was living in a different apartment building and my mom and I were taking care of our brother's dog. He loved to sleep on the bed with me, and this one time I woke up in the middle of the night - very unusual for me, I almost always sleep the whole night through - and found my brother's dog sitting on the edge of my bed facing the window. His head was bobbing from left to right, as if someone was pacing the floor right next to where we were sleeping. I reached out and pet him but he just kept sitting there looking at whatever it was that had his attention.
My final story was what I consider the most... I hesitate to say 'extreme', but it was the only time I've actually felt something. When I was 19 my family moved into a house, my old man was very happy about this because he'd always wanted his own property and we always rented apartment buildings before this. It was a real rickety piece of gak house. It honestly looked as if it been built in the 50s and never renovated. It was so old that none of the power outlets in the house had the grounding hole for the plugs, so we couldn't plug in anything with a 3-prong adapter.
Anyway, my brother absolutely hated this house. He's always been more sensitive to supernatural stuff and the house gave him some seriously bad vibes. One night, as I was falling asleep, I heard what I thought was my mom praying from inside her bedroom. The house had insanely thin walls and I could always hear her saying her evening prayers before she went to sleep. After a few seconds I realized that I wasn't hearing her at all, something was actually whispering in my ear. As soon as I realized that, the whispering stopped, and then I felt something on top of me for the next few seconds. I didn't see anything, but I certainly felt it.
Don't know if that last one was sleep paralysis or not, I hadn't actually fallen asleep yet so I don't know if that's a thing that could have happened. I've thankfully never had to contend with anything like that since, and I was very glad when we moved out of that house a few months later.
Really hoping others share their experiences. Whether it's all in my head or not doesn't much matter to me, I'll concede that it could be my mind playing tricks on me though I'm quite skeptical of that myself.
gorgon wrote: I’ve had sleep paralysis a few times. Only had the hallucinations once though, and it was more formless than horrifying. And I haven’t had paralysis in many years. But there’s no question in my mind that it explains many paranormal stories.
I don’t believe that ghosts exist. I’m open to being proven wrong though. I’d love to visit a haunted house and test it. I’m not going to be a jagoff and act as though I understand the full nature of the universe. *shrug*
I also used to have sleep paralyses frequently when I was younger, always including hallucinations of a shadow being looming over me. I had the distinct feeling that it was a malevolent presence that meant to do me harm in some kind of ineffable way. Like you, I also haven't experienced sleep paralyses in quite some time. Without a doubt, the phenomenon accounts for myths, legends, and stories throughout human history.
gorgon wrote: I’ve had sleep paralysis a few times. Only had the hallucinations once though, and it was more formless than horrifying. And I haven’t had paralysis in many years. But there’s no question in my mind that it explains many paranormal stories.
I don’t believe that ghosts exist. I’m open to being proven wrong though. I’d love to visit a haunted house and test it. I’m not going to be a jagoff and act as though I understand the full nature of the universe. *shrug*
I also used to have sleep paralyses frequently when I was younger, always including hallucinations of a shadow being looming over me. I had the distinct feeling that it was a malevolent presence that meant to do me harm in some kind of ineffable way. Like you, I also haven't experienced sleep paralyses in quite some time. Without a doubt, the phenomenon accounts for myths, legends, and stories throughout human history.
It happens. Most people go through it at least once. Most times it isnt a big deal but it wouldnt hurt to bring up. If you are an adult and you start having these regularly I would seek medical help immediately. I believe it can be a sign of narcolepsy or other serious issues. I'm nit saying you are at risk, just throwing out info in case somebody is in this boat.
Also, again not directed at you, can we stop associating the supernatural with sleep paralysis. It is very dangerous to do so because some poor person could just think they are haunted but instead They have a serious medical condition.
This is why people are fighting this thread so hard. Things like this are explainable and in some cases the explanations are the people going through them are in need of serious medical assistance. Coming out and saying "but they COULD be real" helps absolutely no one and in fact further complicates the lives of those who need help.
Ghosts are not real. If you like a good ghost story that is one thing, so do I, but a thread about personal experiences with ghosts is absurd at best and at its worst it can be detrimental to the health of others.
TL;DR Sleep Paralysis can be a very serious thing and associating it with ghosts and other imaginary things is detrimental to the people suffering.
I'm not sure why you would think that was a ghost anyway. People see things out of the corner of their eyes all the time, I've never considered it to be a supernatural happening, or used it as a ghost story anecdote.
Part of the reason those sort of things get turned into ghost stories is that those things in the corner of the eye (and sometimes right in the front of the eye) are often interpreted by the brain as having a human or human-ish shape, because our brains try to impose familiar patterns on the unfamiliar.
I had a friend in high school who lived in one of those houses where pictures on the walls would go askew in the night, and where you could sit downstairs and hear what sounded an awful lot like people walking around upstairs from time to time, but always scoffed at the idea that it was haunted, as opposed to just being a 60 year old timber house... Walking home in the dark from another friend's house after a movie or gaming session one weekend, I've looked over at the house as I walked past - the front was quite well lit by a streetlight, so could see the house clearly, and also saw a small, blonde girl sitting at the bottom of the front steps. Brain said 'Yup, that's just [friend's little sister]', my eyes moved on, and I kept walking, before my brain caught up with the fact that a 6-year-old had no business being out front of her house at four in the morning. Looked back - and there was nobody there.
I've always assumed that it was just a trick of the light, but it freaked me out no end at the time.
It happens. Most people go through it at least once. Most times it isnt a big deal but it wouldnt hurt to bring up. If you are an adult and you start having these regularly I would seek medical help immediately. I believe it can be a sign of narcolepsy or other serious issues. I'm nit saying you are at risk, just throwing out info in case somebody is in this boat.
Also, again not directed at you, can we stop associating the supernatural with sleep paralysis. It is very dangerous to do so because some poor person could just think they are haunted but instead They have a serious medical condition.
This is why people are fighting this thread so hard. Things like this are explainable and in some cases the explanations are the people going through them are in need of serious medical assistance. Coming out and saying "but they COULD be real" helps absolutely no one and in fact further complicates the lives of those who need help.
Ghosts are not real. If you like a good ghost story that is one thing, so do I, but a thread about personal experiences with ghosts is absurd at best and at its worst it can be detrimental to the health of others.
TL;DR Sleep Paralysis can be a very serious thing and associating it with ghosts and other imaginary things is detrimental to the people suffering.
In my case, the imagery of spiritual or supernatural beings was an inextricable part of my sleep paralyses. When I was in the throes of it, I knew that there was a supernatural being in my room and that I was the focus of its unwavering attention. Once the effect wore off it was clear that I had been hallucinating, and fortunately I knew about sleep paralyses as a phenomenon fairly early on so I had a reasonable explanation. However, sleep paralyses is associated with the supernatural for a very good reason, and that is because many people who experience it also experience what they feel is an archetypal supernatural presence.
I am certainly not one to put my belief in the supernatural, but still things like sleep paralyses and similar experiences are interesting in terms of psychology and symbolism. There is something primordial there which is common to nearly everyone, laying under the surface of the conscious mind, and the imagery and emotions it evokes are extremely consistent and predictable, even across individual and cultural barriers. There's a reason people find ideas about the supernatural so powerful and relatable, and why stories and theories about supernatural phenomena persist even in today's age of relative enlightenment.
I do, however, agree that it's foolish to assume the existence of the supernatural in a literal sense, especially when it impacts one's own well-being.
Oh, I have had two in my life or at least, I believe that is what they were. Both times were honestly terrifying experiences for me. During the event and probably for a good few days afterwards I was convinced that the room it occurred in had something going on in it. But after a few days that passed, I went back to the room to sleep and it never occurred again in there.
I am also not entirely sure mine was completely sleep paralysis*. Now that I have moved on from it though I like to talk about it and tell the story.
I was staying at my grandparents at the time. I believe in High School. Sleeping in my room on my back with just a sheet over me. Slowly it started to feel like somebody was crawling up my body. It felt like the sheet was pulled tight around my legs as a hand was placed and then another was placed, pulling the sheet tighter and tighter against me. I specifically remember hearing myself talking in my sleep as well, which is very rare of me according to others. I was telling myself to wake up, it was a dream. I just kept repeating it and repeating it until the sheet felt like it was pushing down on my chest. Then I suddenly sat up and I honestly just started swinging as soon as I was able to move again. Scared the absolute gak out of my grandparents because I was also apparently yelling some bloodcurdling yell when I came out.
Looking back on it. The adrenaline junkie in me thinks it was a huge rush and would be interested in that sort of thing again. The sane person in me never wants to experience fear at that level again.
But no supernatural here! Just a little messed up brain chemistry. I really did want to give the Winchesters a call though. :(
*To clarify, this doesn't mean I suspect any supernatural shenanigans in any way. I just think maybe there might have been another medical explanation I am unaware of.
My experiences were very similar. Once, I felt my sheets being pulled slowly off me toward the foot of the bed in a very real, physical sense. When I snapped out of it they hadn't moved at all. I would also try to speak or yell ineffectual threats but couldn't move or vocalize.
I think the scariest part of the experience was that I knew I was awake and aware. I could see my room, I could see the shadow being, but I was completely paralyzed (duh). I knew I wasn't dreaming or sleeping because every time it happened I would wake up and gain awareness instantaneously, then the paralyses would last up to a couple of minutes until it faded away and the experience was over.
I know what you mean about the rush of it; I have been in some hairy situations in waking life but I don't remember ever being as scared as I was during sleep paralyses.
See, I couldn't see anything. I am not really sure if it would have been better or worse if I could have honestly. I could see the sheet moving though. Or at least I thought I saw the sheet moving. It was a very odd angle because of how I was laying in bed. I was pretty much looking down by body with my eyes barely cracked and my head was not tilted to get a great view.
But that rush! I have been in blue codes doing CPR, I have ridden some of the worlds biggest roller coasters, I have swam in a phosphorescent bay at night and my foot was touched by something swimming around in the bay I nearly walked on water getting back to the boat. Never have I had a rush like that first time. After that, I very well believe that a dream can scare you enough to have a heart attack, even kill you.
Reflecting on it, this might be why I dislike fear as a way to access adrenaline in the body.....
I'm not sure why you would think that was a ghost anyway. People see things out of the corner of their eyes all the time, I've never considered it to be a supernatural happening, or used it as a ghost story anecdote.
Part of the reason those sort of things get turned into ghost stories is that those things in the corner of the eye (and sometimes right in the front of the eye) are often interpreted by the brain as having a human or human-ish shape, because our brains try to impose familiar patterns on the unfamiliar.
I had a friend in high school who lived in one of those houses where pictures on the walls would go askew in the night, and where you could sit downstairs and hear what sounded an awful lot like people walking around upstairs from time to time, but always scoffed at the idea that it was haunted, as opposed to just being a 60 year old timber house... Walking home in the dark from another friend's house after a movie or gaming session one weekend, I've looked over at the house as I walked past - the front was quite well lit by a streetlight, so could see the house clearly, and also saw a small, blonde girl sitting at the bottom of the front steps. Brain said 'Yup, that's just [friend's little sister]', my eyes moved on, and I kept walking, before my brain caught up with the fact that a 6-year-old had no business being out front of her house at four in the morning. Looked back - and there was nobody there.
I've always assumed that it was just a trick of the light, but it freaked me out no end at the time.
I used to have this phenomenon happen a lot to me as a child with an overactive imagination. Specifically happening at my grandparents house. They had a very open floor layout with a partition wall blocking off the kitchen from the front room. Then at the end the living room was on one side and the upstairs/sub-basement the other. I saw things walking by that partition wall daily almost. Just out of the corner of my eyes. Never said anything as a kid. Just shrugged it off or assumed I just saw something. Then in high school I was sick a day and they were talking about ghost stories in the english class. A girl told a story almost identical to my own that day. So I come back the next day and the teacher asks if I would like to share one since I didn't get to before. So I told my story. The teacher was looking at me a little annoyed. The girl though, freaking out. For a second I think she thought maybe I was causing it or something but she was pale. The teacher noticed, realized maybe I hadn't just stolen the story. Started the damage control. Luckily good teacher did a little digging on some of the stories and found some explanations she planned on telling us that day. That girl was so relieved to hear it was just a trick of the mind.
On the second thing, it could have just been a kid who bolted once they saw an adult outside. Kids do odd things and parents can't keep track of them at night. I can tell you I definitely snuck outside sometimes as a kid while the adults were sleeping. Sometimes you just need air, a dog to pet, or your grandpa was raised in the pits of hell and keeps the wood stove going so the house is sitting at a cool 90 degrees in May. But yeah, I can see where it would definitely freak somebody out. It is still odd.
I'll grant you sleep paralysis accounts for accounts where people are sleeping/nearly sleeping.
I was wide awake for mine. And while I'll grant you it's probably much more likely my mind tricked me into hearing footsteps behind me on that gravel beach... prove it.
I HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THIS! I HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH gak! AND I AM THE ONE THAT WANTS IT THE MOST! Everyone's got cool experiences than I do! Oh wait, except for my last two stories those were 100% real.
This actually reminds me of another story I seem to have suppressed over the years. This one actually involves a little bit of reincarnation, if you would accept that is possible.
It was 1921, the early years of Prohibition. I spent much of my free time in a little speakeasy a little ways from my apartment in Manhattan. There was a particular young woman there who I was trying to get to know, but was routinely brushed off with every advance I would make. She was always there, and from time to time would engage in a conversation with a wealthy looking man, and often after leaving together, these men would never return. She didn't appear to work, yet was always able to pay her tab in full. She also only drank the most expensive drinks of the day, even though much of the finest bootlegged alcohol tasted like gasoline. I couldn't get her out of my head. There was just something about her and I had to have her.
One night it was unusually slow at the bar and we made eye contact, which then turned into a second look from her, and then a smile as if she had never seen me before, even though we had seen and briefly talked to each other on dozens of separate occasions previously! I decided to make my move and slid down the bar and asked if I could buy her a drink. This time she said 'sure'.
Grey Goose and Red Bull! $25 drink of course she did that. They always do that.
Anyway, we engaged in light chit chat and in the middle of telling her a little about me, she interrupted me and asked if I wanted to go back to her place, which I responded with a yes and still managed to not fall out of my chair. I was finally going to score tonight, and I threw back my drink, slammed money for the tab on the bar, and away we went.
She said her place was nearby, just through these nearby warehouses, where she owned a loft, and suggested we walk. It was 2am, and the city was quiet. As we moved through the warehouse district I noticed many of the street lights were not functioning, and the moon cast eerie shadows from the buildings. I grew a little uneasy but noticed how confident she walked, as if none of this bothered her. I assumed she trusted my company, and that I would protect her if need be.
But how wrong I was. At first the signs that something was out of place was the look in her eye as she watched me out of the corner of her eye. Like she was waiting for something. Waiting for the right time.
gorgon wrote: I’ve had sleep paralysis a few times. Only had the hallucinations once though, and it was more formless than horrifying. And I haven’t had paralysis in many years. But there’s no question in my mind that it explains many paranormal stories.
I don’t believe that ghosts exist. I’m open to being proven wrong though. I’d love to visit a haunted house and test it. I’m not going to be a jagoff and act as though I understand the full nature of the universe. *shrug*
I also used to have sleep paralyses frequently when I was younger, always including hallucinations of a shadow being looming over me. I had the distinct feeling that it was a malevolent presence that meant to do me harm in some kind of ineffable way. Like you, I also haven't experienced sleep paralyses in quite some time. Without a doubt, the phenomenon accounts for myths, legends, and stories throughout human history.
The feeling of malevolence/danger is definitely a thing. I'm certainly no neuroscientist, but I imagine there are some brain chemicals involved. Paralysis being a stressful and potentially dangerous situation, etc.
I don't think I've ever seen someone who shouldn't be there. I've heard stories like that from people though. IIRC, Neil Gaiman talked about an experience like that in one of his books. And there are the 'third man' experiences that some people have in life-threatening experiences.
Are these 'supernatural' ghosts or apparitions? Are they mysterious, self-created visions and experiences that remind us how subjective reality actually is? Which explanation is weirder?
I've had a couple experiences that could be claimed to be supernatural, or just the result of active imaginations.
When I was a kid my mom and stepdad would get my sister and I for weekends often requiring a trip up to Seattle, occasionally they would stay down where my sister and I lived, and we'd stay at my step-grandfather's house. It was a relatively normal house for an old man that lived on his own most of the time, dirty, full of tool ect. I distinctly remember one night my sister and I sleeping in the spare room we stayed in there. I remember waking up late one night to the feeling of being watched, and groggily opening my eyes to look around the room, seeing nothing I laid my head back down and as I did so saw two faces looking in the window of the room. The face of a girl and boy only slightly older than my sister and I. I blinked and they were gone. As a child that had seen too many horror movies for that age (thanks dad) I just kinda stared for a moment, then laid back down thinking little of it. Told my parents the next morning and they just looked at one another and brushed it off. Now, the window to where my sister and I did have the stairs to the upper patio running bellow it, but at such a height that as a 6 foot tall adult I would struggle to have my face where theirs was, and a couple years later I would find out that when my stepdad was younger, the neighbor lady had murdered her two children. Still I mean, could just be the work of an overactive imagination and coincidence.
Same house, some years later. My stepdad and I came back from a fishing trip on the coast, my sisters (youngest sister hadn't been born at the time of the last story) had the spare room, my mother and stepfather in the other spare and I didn't want to sleep on the couch so I took my step-grandfather's room since he was still out fishing. I was exhausted, like the kind of exhausted where someone has to physically disturb you to wake you up. Yet, low and behold, I wake up in the middle of the night to something sitting at the foot of the bed. I open my eyes and see the indentation on the mattress and comforter. At this point used to the house and its oddities, I just lay back down and go to sleep. Mention it to my step-grandfather later and his reply was "Yeah that happens." His theory was it was the wife of the previous owner who had died in the house and that she just looked over people.
My family was convinced that there were 3-4 ghosts, the 2 Neighbor Kids who used to come over all the time, the old woman and if there was a 4th the creepyone, that made places incredibly uncomfortable to be in and always felt malevolent.
Later on in highschool there was an abandoned house that we'd explore occasionally where there were odd feelings all around, feelings of being touched (and seeing the hairs on the back of my friends neck be flat as if by a hand in one spot, while standing all around that area. The smell of rotting flesh (honestly that could be a dead animal) all together just an odd place, where after going there occasionally we'd look up to the room where we smelled the rot to see what looked like someone staring down at us (which Im sure was just us seeing what we wanted to see).
My friend who lived closes to the house was a firm non-believer but would describe things that he'd sometimes see at night which he'd say was just his imagination and I'd joke was the ghost of the other house coming to visit. Once we were discussing it in his kitchen and he yelled back that it wasn't a ghost and that neither house was haunted. Dish soap bottle about 4 feet from the both of us flew across the room. That was odd for sure.
Vulcan wrote: I'll grant you sleep paralysis accounts for accounts where people are sleeping/nearly sleeping.
I was wide awake for mine. And while I'll grant you it's probably much more likely my mind tricked me into hearing footsteps behind me on that gravel beach... prove it.
Echoes. Probably bouncing off a barrier wall.
Just Tony wrote: Compounding the issue is that ANY evidence that is gathered is dismissed out of hand immediately. It doesn't matter what corroborates the footage, how it could tie in to actual history of the location, OR any attempts to recreate the moment in an effort to debunk it with no success at all of making it happen in the same way. All that matters is that it "can't" exist, therefore the evidence is disregarded.
Same thing goes about life on other planets. We've found microbes on other celestial objects, which is indeed indicative of life coming from planets other than our own. But most "experts" on any sort of forum you find will immediately denounce the thought that life could exist. Press them with that evidence, and then it's INTELLIGENT life can't exist elsewhere.
I find BOTH skeptics close minded.
Where do you post? Because I have had the opposite happen on every single forum I post on. I have never heard an "expert" say there is no possibility of intelligent life on other planets. Who are you considering to be "experts" here?
Vulcan wrote: I'll grant you sleep paralysis accounts for accounts where people are sleeping/nearly sleeping.
I was wide awake for mine. And while I'll grant you it's probably much more likely my mind tricked me into hearing footsteps behind me on that gravel beach... prove it.
Echoes. Probably bouncing off a barrier wall.
Here's a relevant detail for you. This was the Merrimac River in Missouri. We were well upstream from St. Louis, between Steelville and St. James (neither of which are on the river, by the by; just the nearest towns). No highways within dozens of miles, much less highways with barrier walls. The gravel bar we camped at was about a mile from the nearest road, as best we could tell; no telling how far to the nearest wall. Just the Merrimac river and miles of woods.
Vulcan wrote: I'll grant you sleep paralysis accounts for accounts where people are sleeping/nearly sleeping.
I was wide awake for mine. And while I'll grant you it's probably much more likely my mind tricked me into hearing footsteps behind me on that gravel beach... prove it.
Echoes. Probably bouncing off a barrier wall.
Here's a relevant detail for you. This was the Merrimac River in Missouri. We were well upstream from St. Louis, between Steelville and St. James (neither of which are on the river, by the by; just the nearest towns). No highways within dozens of miles, much less highways with barrier walls. The gravel bar we camped at was about a mile from the nearest road, as best we could tell; no telling how far to the nearest wall. Just the Merrimac river and miles of woods.
Yeah, just the quiet sound of feet on gravel echoing for miles without any loss of volume. I'd buy it.
Dreadwinter wrote:
Vulcan wrote: I'll grant you sleep paralysis accounts for accounts where people are sleeping/nearly sleeping.
I was wide awake for mine. And while I'll grant you it's probably much more likely my mind tricked me into hearing footsteps behind me on that gravel beach... prove it.
Echoes. Probably bouncing off a barrier wall.
Just Tony wrote: Compounding the issue is that ANY evidence that is gathered is dismissed out of hand immediately. It doesn't matter what corroborates the footage, how it could tie in to actual history of the location, OR any attempts to recreate the moment in an effort to debunk it with no success at all of making it happen in the same way. All that matters is that it "can't" exist, therefore the evidence is disregarded.
Same thing goes about life on other planets. We've found microbes on other celestial objects, which is indeed indicative of life coming from planets other than our own. But most "experts" on any sort of forum you find will immediately denounce the thought that life could exist. Press them with that evidence, and then it's INTELLIGENT life can't exist elsewhere.
I find BOTH skeptics close minded.
Where do you post? Because I have had the opposite happen on every single forum I post on. I have never heard an "expert" say there is no possibility of intelligent life on other planets. Who are you considering to be "experts" here?
The quotation marks were there to derisively jab at any so-called experts on these forums. I've seen people go on with their expert analysis of US military capabilities and functions, only to have actual vets like myself and djones wreck their "expertise". I pretty much assume EVERY person on here is a Wal-Mart cashier, and question every "fact" that's flung my way.
Just Tony wrote: Yeah, just the quiet sound of feet on gravel echoing for miles without any loss of volume. I'd buy it.
Dreadwinter wrote:
Vulcan wrote: I'll grant you sleep paralysis accounts for accounts where people are sleeping/nearly sleeping.
I was wide awake for mine. And while I'll grant you it's probably much more likely my mind tricked me into hearing footsteps behind me on that gravel beach... prove it.
Echoes. Probably bouncing off a barrier wall.
Just Tony wrote: Compounding the issue is that ANY evidence that is gathered is dismissed out of hand immediately. It doesn't matter what corroborates the footage, how it could tie in to actual history of the location, OR any attempts to recreate the moment in an effort to debunk it with no success at all of making it happen in the same way. All that matters is that it "can't" exist, therefore the evidence is disregarded.
Same thing goes about life on other planets. We've found microbes on other celestial objects, which is indeed indicative of life coming from planets other than our own. But most "experts" on any sort of forum you find will immediately denounce the thought that life could exist. Press them with that evidence, and then it's INTELLIGENT life can't exist elsewhere.
I find BOTH skeptics close minded.
Where do you post? Because I have had the opposite happen on every single forum I post on. I have never heard an "expert" say there is no possibility of intelligent life on other planets. Who are you considering to be "experts" here?
The quotation marks were there to derisively jab at any so-called experts on these forums. I've seen people go on with their expert analysis of US military capabilities and functions, only to have actual vets like myself and djones wreck their "expertise". I pretty much assume EVERY person on here is a Wal-Mart cashier, and question every "fact" that's flung my way.
So you are an agnostic Wal-Mart cashier? Nice to meet you.
But, what Dreadwinter was saying is not that the sound echoed for miles, but that it could have echoed off the (miles of) woods.
Just Tony wrote: Agreed. If you can offer an explanation where my night light example has a plausible scientific explanation, I'm all ears.
It is kind of hard to provide a scientific explanation for an anecdote. The nightlight may not have been placed on the table stably and was knocked over by an air current, or by the vibrations of whatever caused the knock on the wall you heard (which could have been an animal, an object or person in another room, air pressure changes, humidity changes, water running through the pipes in the house, water hammer, a loose pipe or other part of the house's structure, processes in the wood (if it was a wooden home) or some object hitting the house or any of a myriad other perfectly mundane things which can cause a knocking sound). The scientific method seeks to test the most simple hypotheses first and to reject them before considering more complicated ones (and the intervention of a supernatural being is very high up the scale of complicatedness). The problem with an anecdote of course is that the hypotheses can no longer be tested.
At my Grandparents, the ones where I had the awful night terror/sleep paraylsis episode, I always heard scratching in the walls.
We had raccoons living in the walls, not translucent people looking to scare me for fun.
This is what confuses me about ghosts and other supernatural things. What are their motivations to do the things people claim they do? What is the point in making footsteps behind somebody or moving a nightlight?
Testimony =
a formal written or spoken statement, especially one given in a court of law
or
a public recounting of a religious conversion or experience.
Which one is supposed to convince me that ghosts are real?
I'm hoping some other forms of evidence to support the testimony... otherwise it's just an anecdote...
"My nightlamp flew circles around my head. Prove me wrong."
How am I supposed to prove this testimony wrong?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In Science, eye witness testimony is the weakest form of evidence there is.
She's also a born-again holier-than-though type, though (because none of us were RAISED in a religious family - her conversion happened as an adult). She expects to see them, though, so she does.
I have never seen a ghost or apparition, I don't believe they exist, so I don't see them. The brain is good at ignoring stuff when it wants to, just as well as it fills in gaps and sees things that AREN'T there.
So, I if I go to the Police, and explain that some goon just pointed a gun at me in the park and threatened my life, no crime could possibly have happened, and the Police don't need to log it or investigate it at all, because there's only my testimony, yes?
By all means test the testimony. Look into the claims, then refute.
But the whole 'I are science, don't have to look further' is just childish.
I posted my experiences, and described them as best I can. They are not presented as irrefutable evidence of hauntings, ghosts, the supernatural etc. But nobody has, so far, attempted to explain what it was I actually saw/felt. Instead, just a barrage of science bores explaining they're science bores, therefore I must be wrong.
Yeah, honestly it must be awful to not believe in anything except that which you can physically reach out and touch. Gives no sense of wonder. Oh well, I guess some people just have to be horribly negative and tell us how stupid we all are for believing there is something more. Poor poor us (aka, quit pissing in the Cheerios).
But the whole 'I are science, don't have to look further' is just childish.
I posted my experiences, and described them as best I can. They are not presented as irrefutable evidence of hauntings, ghosts, the supernatural etc. But nobody has, so far, attempted to explain what it was I actually saw/felt. Instead, just a barrage of science bores explaining they're science bores, therefore I must be wrong.
This thread was funner when it was just ghost stories, and less fun now that people are (poorly) debating the scientific method.
Anyone got anymore ghost stories? I heard a thumping outside the house once. Turned out to just be a deer sleeping on the back porch, but it was pretty damn freaky at the time.
LordofHats wrote: This thread was funner when it was just ghost stories, and less fun now that people are (poorly) debating the scientific method.
Anyone got anymore ghost stories? I heard a thumping outside the house once. Turned out to just be a deer sleeping on the back porch, but it was pretty damn freaky at the time.
No. I never experience any sort of strange, explainable phenomena. Either that means that I have an explanation for everything I have ever seen in my life, or my life is incredibly boring. Or possibly both.
To make up for it, here is a song of a ghost story:
Iron_Captain wrote: . Either that means that I have an explanation for everything I have ever seen in my life, or my life is incredibly boring. Or possibly both.
Plus short, don't forget short.
One of the hallmarks of being a teenager is thinking you know everything, one of the hallmarks of getting old is realizing that you know very little and understand even less.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So, I if I go to the Police, and explain that some goon just pointed a gun at me in the park and threatened my life, no crime could possibly have happened, and the Police don't need to log it or investigate it at all, because there's only my testimony, yes?
You really don't understand that there is a difference in being an eye witness in scientific matter (it was a big foot I saw in the forest!) and being an eye witness in law matter (it was a mugger I saw in the forest!)?
Again, I refer you back to my reports earlier in the thread. You want to show off your science clevers, have a read and come back to me. Because you’ll find at no point have I said they were most definitely supernatural in origin. It’s just what I saw and/or experienced.
This is a genuinely friendly challenge, not a calling you out and being a Richard about it.
I’ve experienced stuff I can’t explain. So don’t be a science bore about it. Stop talking up your method, and instead apply it,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
timetowaste85 wrote: Yeah, honestly it must be awful to not believe in anything except that which you can physically reach out and touch. Gives no sense of wonder. Oh well, I guess some people just have to be horribly negative and tell us how stupid we all are for believing there is something more. Poor poor us (aka, quit pissing in the Cheerios).
There’s plenty of wonder in science. It’s something that genuinely fascinated me.
But those that simply go *snort snort snort.....syuns noob’ I rank no differently to Bible literalists. They’re not willing to have their position challenged. Or to address what people are reporting, beyond ‘can’t be, because science’.
LordofHats wrote: This thread was funner when it was just ghost stories, and less fun now that people are (poorly) debating the scientific method.
Again, this thread is quite a lens into who would be fun at parties.
This thread is a lens in to who reads thread titles. Not a thread about ghost stories. So debating with people about whether or not they actually experienced something and their unwillingness to provide evidence beyond anecdotal should be par for the course.
I am sorry this thread isn't what you want it to be. I think we should have a Ghost Stories thread. They are fun, interesting, and great storytelling experiences. But they are still stories and not based in reality. Nobody is trying to prove the Hash Slinging Slasher is real beyond a wink, nod, and a "you never know!"
Again, I refer you back to my reports earlier in the thread. You want to show off your science clevers, have a read and come back to me. Because you’ll find at no point have I said they were most definitely supernatural in origin. It’s just what I saw and/or experienced.
This is a genuinely friendly challenge, not a calling you out and being a Richard about it.
I’ve experienced stuff I can’t explain. So don’t be a science bore about it. Stop talking up your method, and instead apply it,
I cannot give any explanation based on your brief description of the events.
Most likely explanation is your mind playing tricks on you. For example your halloween story has you already in mood for supernatural explanation.
Why the explanation is automatically ghosts and ghoulies, though. As likely explanation would be Faerie Magic or Moonbase Nazi Mind Control Ray...
There’s plenty of wonder in science. It’s something that genuinely fascinated me.
But those that simply go *snort snort snort.....syuns noob’ I rank no differently to Bible literalists. They’re not willing to have their position challenged. Or to address what people are reporting, beyond ‘can’t be, because science’.
I'm not a "Bible literalist" in the sense of that I'm actually willing to change my mind on things if I actually get some evidence on it.
If an Angel suddenly materialize in front of me, I have no choise but examine my belief (or lack of it) in the Biblical God and his Angelic Host... Same thing if a ghost comes before me to rattle his chains...
But no such thing has occured to me thus far, so I remain sceptical.
If I encounter something I cannot explain (easy thing as I'm not that good on explaining things), the default position for me is not "Aliens!" or "Lizardmen from the centre of earth!". I believe the thing can be explained even if I don't have the explanation for it...
All this 'science' talk has done nothing to refute my stories, which did happen and are 100% complete fact. I actually challenge the disbelievers to provide evidence that they did not happen.
KTG17 wrote: All this 'science' talk has done nothing to refute my stories, which did happen and are 100% complete fact. I actually challenge the disbelievers to provide evidence that they did not happen.
You know, this reminds me about another time I prefer to not remember. It involves a well on my great aunt's farm. Some ways from the house was an old school well, complete with the hand crank and bucket, which they still used. There was an eerie presence around the well, and I found out some time later that a young boy who previously lived on the farm 100 years ago had actually fallen in and drown. People speculated it was his ghost haunting the area.
But this story doesn't involve that boy. It involves a garden gnome in my great aunt's front yard that would come to life between the time of 7:30 and 8:30 every Saturday morning. He would tap his pipe on the glass window of the guest room of where I slept, demanding that I come outside and play. Once the sun came up over the trees however, he would go back to his spot and become a statue until next Saturday. Now, why only on Saturdays I do not know. But what I did come to learn about him the one day I did go out and play, has stayed with me forever.
Never seen anything much, although I do recall having heard some rather odd noises on a number of occasions.
For instance about 10 years ago I was still living with my parents. We had a ping pong table down in the basement. On several occasions from the top of the stairs I heard the distinctive sound of a game taking place down there.
Which was odd considering it was 2am, everyone else was asleep at the other end of the house, and I had been on the computer by the top of the stairs leading down there for the entire evening, so would have known if anyone had gone down there.
I didn't bother to investigate further. Just figured it meant I was up too late and should go to bed.
On another more recent occasion while I was at my parents house for dinner, while eating we heard a sudden burst of laughter from the bottom of the stairs. Sounding like a middle aged woman. We all just kind of looked at each other for a moment, then shrugged and carried on eating.
I had a quick look downstairs after dinner, and found nothing. As you'd expect.
When i was a kid in the late 80's, every night when I went to go take a shower on the second floor of my house, Slimer from ghostbusters would chase me from the first floor, up the stairs, and into my bathroom.
Oh, when I was in the army, I would pull guard duty for 18+ hours, and towards the end of my shift, I would see little shadowy demons on in the bushes as I was fighting staying awake.
This is pretty much the extent of anything supernatural in reality....
The police use witless testimony as ONE source - which is enough to establish probable cause. Corroborating evidence is usually needed to get to trial.
But Doc, you've made a jump from eyewitness "I saw something and this is what I think I saw" to eyewitness "I saw something, this is what I definitely saw and it was supernatural".
The first is evidence, the later is speculation.
No proposition for the supernatural, or religious intervention, has ever been successfully tested or backed up with any evidence beyond "this is what I think I saw".
And people are not prosecuted for crimes purely on one persons say so (at least not in a country with a functioning judicial system - otherwise She Who Shall Not Be Named would have been locked up in January 2017). There has to be supporting evidence. An eyewitness account is evidence but it is not, by itself, definitive.
I’ve come around to the idea that ghosts are real. I don’t mean the spirits of the dead. But I also don’t mean delusions. I think we are indeed haunted, by our losses and our grief, by those hopes of ours that never come to blossom. These “ghosts” may have no existence independent of our experience of them, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real.
So you’ve concrete evidence to rule it out entirely then?
If not, try not to be such a bore! Cryptids? Some were found to be real (Mountain Gorilla). Lycanthropy? Not supernatural, just mental health, perhaps with genetic oddities.
By all means seek to prove it’s not. But you cannot do that from a stand point of ‘it’s clearly not’. That is not scientific, no?
Burden of proof is on the claimant. I will believe that supernatural things exist when there is data to support the claim and it stands up to the scientific process and is proven to be factual.
No. But I don't need to. You mistake where the burden of proof lies.
By all means seek to prove it’s not. But you cannot do that from a stand point of ‘it’s clearly not’. That is not scientific, no?
Again you mistake. It doesn't come from a position of "it's clearly not". There are already valid explanations for why people think they encounter the supernatural that don't require pixies and goblins to be real. Scientists have conducted many studies on it. What the human mind is capable of deceiving itself into believing is a truly fascinating subject and comfortably explains all paranormal and miraculous anecdotes.
The evidence you or any other witness may attest to is indeed evidence, just not for the conclusion that you wish it to be. The explanation is material, not supernatural. That is what enables us to discard such flights of fantasy as not real.
What is boring is to hear someone declare that they believe something, in spite of evidence to the contrary, purely because they want to believe it. But that line of talking leads us down the current state of politics, which ist verboten.
So, this actually involves a local game store.
This store has an attic where the terrain is stored. We where helping him move it. 3 guys went up and we go down. I was the one in the rear, I felt something push my back as I leave. Like a hand. I was lucky to hold the rail and not fall.
Talked to the owner and it turns out he firmly believes it's haunted and refused to go up there by himself.
They are, however, considered the weakest form of evidence and not worth much without other evidence to support them. It's well known how bad people are at getting accurate information, whether it's because of bias, poor vision, etc. And when we're talking about something like the supernatural that would go directly against well-understood and well-proven science the burden of proof is high. It's absurd to suggest that the two sides are equal, that we need to treat the existence of the supernatural as a plausible theory. That's as far from the truth as you can get. The burden of proof is high, and the pro-supernatural side is nowhere near meeting it. The evidence is nothing but individual anecdotes, and the supernatural mysteriously disappears whenever anyone tries to collect any more compelling evidence.
So yes, it's possible that the supernatural exists. It's also possible that I'm an AI construct sent to this forum to waste your time and prevent you from stopping the robot revolution. I don't think either possibility should be considered anything but nonsense.
hotsauceman1 wrote: It does seem you come in to ruin other people's fun though.
Sorry if the truth is not fun, but I'm under no obligation to pretend that nonsense is true. If you want to have fun with the idea of hauntings or general supernatural stuff there's a fiction section where you can write all the creative stories you want, without anyone objecting to their truth: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/9.page
I don't think you understand how it is annoying to come into threads, assert people are liars and wrong and immediatly ruin their fun. But that seems to be your MO
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't think you understand how it is annoying to come into threads, assert people are liars and wrong and immediatly ruin their fun. But that seems to be your MO
Again, if you want fun there's a fiction section where you can write all of the fun ghost stories you want. Nobody is going to complain that they aren't true. But if you want to discuss the facts of hauntings and supernatural stuff in general then you're going to have to face the fact that the evidence for all of it is on the same level as the evidence for flat earth theory. And I don't care if you don't think that the truth is fun enough.
Except it is true, I really was pushed down stairs something when the room was empty.
Just because you refuse to believe people doesn't mean it didn't happen or isn't true.
And this wasn't about the Facts of hauntings, it was about ghost stories, you turned it into one.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Except it is true, I really was pushed down stairs something when the room was empty.
Or you stumbled and "I was pushed" was less embarrassing than "I tripped over my own feet". I think this is a much more likely explanation than a "haunting" that ignores basic laws of physics, much like "flat earthers are wrong" is much more plausible than the earth actually being flat in direct opposition to lots of evidence that it is round.
Just because you refuse to believe people doesn't mean it didn't happen or isn't true.
Again, you don't seem to understand how the burden of proof works. Claims without evidence are worthless, and that's all the pro-paranormal side has. Mysteriously whenever anyone tries to get more concrete and repeatable proof the ghosts/magic spells/whatever seem to vanish entirely, as if they were nothing but a work of fiction or an over-active imagination.
And this wasn't about the Facts of hauntings, it was about ghost stories, you turned it into one.
The topic of the thread is asking for real experiences, not a contest about who can write the best fiction (which, again, has a place in a different section). And you agree with me about this being about facts by claiming that your story is true account of an event that really happened.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Why even come in other than to ruin other people's parade? It seems like that is what you do.
Because this is a discussion forum, not a hugbox, and sometimes when you make a claim about something you get skepticism as a response. If you don't want to have your parade ruined then take it to the fiction section where it belongs, the rest of us are under no obligation to pretend that ghost stories are real just because you find it fun.
They are, however, considered the weakest form of evidence and not worth much without other evidence to support them. It's well known how bad people are at getting accurate information, whether it's because of bias, poor vision, etc. And when we're talking about something like the supernatural that would go directly against well-understood and well-proven science the burden of proof is high. It's absurd to suggest that the two sides are equal, that we need to treat the existence of the supernatural as a plausible theory. That's as far from the truth as you can get. The burden of proof is high, and the pro-supernatural side is nowhere near meeting it. The evidence is nothing but individual anecdotes, and the supernatural mysteriously disappears whenever anyone tries to collect any more compelling evidence.
So yes, it's possible that the supernatural exists. It's also possible that I'm an AI construct sent to this forum to waste your time and prevent you from stopping the robot revolution. I don't think either possibility should be considered anything but nonsense.
But that’s not what I’m saying.
The exploration of why it’s not in fact Supernatural is just as fascinating as the outside chance it is Supernatural. To simply discount a report out of hand ‘because Science’ is, well, pretty childish.
Consider the following. There are professional ghost hunters out there. And they use certain types of equipment to ‘record spirit activity’. What exactly are those tools? What is it they are actually measuring, and can it be replicated outside of ‘haunted’ houses? Explore that. Offer information, not just a shrug of the shoulders.
As I mentioned a few times, I regularly and avidly read Fortean Times. It’s a cracking magazine, and usually has very interesting articles on the odd and unusual. Yet it’s not credulous. It’s not treating the supernatural as sacrosanct and self-evident. Instead it’s exploring how most stuff is debunked, often by the very people leading the investigation.
Sure, it’s tempting to think of everyone looking into Forteana and the Supernatural as some hippie weirdo, or that Centauri looking dude that claims everything is aliens. But it’s not. Many are investigating from the angle of proving its not supernatural. Actually doing science, not just saying ‘science’.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically. Don’t mistake interest and investigation for credulity.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: To simply discount a report out of hand ‘because Science’ is, well, pretty childish.
Alternatively, it's realistic. There's already an abundance of anecdotes about ghosts or whatever, adding one more isn't bringing anything new to the table. Dismissing it with "because science" is just a quick way of saying "not convincing, come back when you have better evidence". It would be childish (and badly wrong) to dismiss a story backed up with new and compelling evidence, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Consider the following. There are professional ghost hunters out there. And they use certain types of equipment to ‘record spirit activity’. What exactly are those tools? What is it they are actually measuring, and can it be replicated outside of ‘haunted’ houses? Explore that. Offer information, not just a shrug of the shoulders.
That's not how the burden of proof works. It's not our job to explore, it's the so-called professional's job to present a description of their tools as a part of making their claim. They won't, because the equipment is all nonsense, but that's what is required to make an argument worth listening to. If all they're saying is "LOOK A GHOST" and expecting people to explore and try to do their job for them, well, onto the trash pile with that nonsense. It's just more of the same old garbage and there's no reason to engage with it.
Don’t mistake interest and investigation for credulity.
But at some point they become the same thing. For example, flat earthers and young earth creationists and such have nothing to offer. Their position is clearly wrong, as demonstrated by giant piles of evidence, and they utterly fail to bring anything new to the discussion when making their claims. Continued investigation, in the absence of anything but repeating the same old nonsense claims, is credulity. It's treating nonsense as if it is legitimate enough to bother investigating, instead of tossing straight into the trash pile with the guy screaming about mind control in the chemtrails. If you're giving those arguments anything more than the most superficial of dismissals you're suffering from a severe lack of skepticism and understanding.
Same thing with ghosts and all the other assorted supernatural nonsense. The argument is so weak right now that it isn't even worth considering until its advocates bring something better, treating it as a legitimate field of inquiry is granting it respect that it has not earned.
I’d say Flat Earthers and Creationists are worse, because they either wilfully misinterpret evidence, or just claim any evidence against has been faked as part of some increasingly bizarre and far ranging conspiracy.
There are investigations into the supernatural. And they make for engaging reading.
Consider one which blurs the lines between creationism and common or garden supernatural reports. The 10 Plagues of Egypt.
Some claim they were expressly the will of god. Yet there are solid scientific explanations for them, and indeed how one can follow the other in a logical series of events.
Now just because Science can say how they occurred, to someone of faith, that doesn’t rule out god kicking them off. Or even adjusting his creation to ensure each followed the last, and never set things back as they were.
Crucially here, those just shrugging aren’t actually offering anything other than ‘but my science’. And frankly, I doubt anyone here has actually done the science themself.
So to go back to my own reports. I’ve provided the recollections of a very young me. And the recollection of a much older me. Now I cannot offer more than that. But nobody here has offered me anything other than ‘you’re wrong because I say so’.
That is not interesting. That is not engaging. Offer an actual explanation. I’m sure there is one. And I’m willing to accept that what I experienced wasn’t in fact supernatural. Could’ve been a bad angle. Could’ve been the result of an imagination already primed to have ‘an experience’.
Other stuff that is interesting? Before UFO abductions, it was Fairy Folk doing it. When you look at the reports from alleged abductees, they’re remarkably similar. So what is it that’s actually happening to those people? As already covered, there’s a fascinating paper out there suggesting we’re hard wired for faith, and belief in the supernatural as a survival trait.
Other stuff that is interesting? Before UFO abductions, it was Fairy Folk doing it. When you look at the reports from alleged abductees, they’re remarkably similar. So what is it that’s actually happening to those people?
One explanation is one I’ve referenced before in this thread; Sleep Paralysis. I’ve experienced it twice and both times I had the same experience that “alien abductees” have. Previous to the alien explanation it was devils sitting on your chest. Could there be aliens or devils doing it? Sure, but I’ll require verifiable proof of that before accepting it as a cause and until then I’ll go with the researched and proven explanation of sleep paralysis.
Sleep Paralysis doesn't explain everything though.
How can sleep paralysis explain the caronado group abduction, or ones that are said to happen outside.
Not t only that, but if we are to give proof, it is immediatly dismissed.
My favorite line from a show is "for those that believe there is enough proof, for those that don't, there will never be enough.
I’ll be happy to attribute those events to alien abduction if you can provide physical evidence of the event occurring. Until then I will file it under “unexplained”.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't think you understand how it is annoying to come into threads, assert people are liars and wrong and immediatly ruin their fun. But that seems to be your MO
The way to avoid this is to do what I did. Put him on your ignore list and now he can no longer annoy you or ruin your fun. Long and short, don't engage the troll and life is much better.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't think you understand how it is annoying to come into threads, assert people are liars and wrong and immediatly ruin their fun. But that seems to be your MO
The way to avoid this is to do what I did. Put him on your ignore list and now he can no longer annoy you or ruin your fun. Long and short, don't engage the troll and life is much better.
Doubtless ruining his fun in the doing.
I think it says a lot about the credibility of the people claiming ghost stories that you are, apparently 100% seriously, dismissing skepticism as "trolling" and "ruining your fun". And instead of providing better evidence to prove the claim, or admitting that it is wrong, you think that the proper response is blocking the critic so you don't have to see the criticism.
Not sure if that link is going to work, but there are individuals in this thread asserting that their perception of a lack of evidence in paranormal or supernatural is truth or fact. What if those things exist and you are just incapable of perceiving them with your current senses? You are currently filling the shoes of those scientists that believed the sun rotated around the earth and before that the earth was flat.
Thought I’d have a crack at the argument. I had an experience where a buddy who died visited me. Could it have been my imagination? Could I have made a mistake and didn’t see him when I thought I did? My senses told me I saw him when it is not possible that I could have seen him. So there’s that.
Jjohnso11 wrote: What if those things exist and you are just incapable of perceiving them with your current senses?
What if I'm actually the second coming of Jesus and about to pass judgement on the world. You'd better give me all of your money just to be safe.
You are currently filling the shoes of those scientists that believed the sun rotated around the earth and before that the earth was flat.
You're going to have to provide a hell of a lot more proof before that claim is plausible. Right now the people telling ghost stories are the equivalent of the flat earthers and geocentrists, lots of anecdotes and talk of "having fun" but nothing even resembling proof.
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Manchu wrote: All the same, there’s a time and a place. And when folks gather round the campfire, as it were, it’s neither the time nor the place.
Again, the fiction section exists if people want to "gather round the camp fire" write fun ghost stories without anyone disputing if they are true. If they want to claim that it's true and supernatural stuff is real then it's not going to be a hugbox and skepticism is a perfectly valid response.
People here are not necessarily making up stories. They are describing experiences that happened to them and how they perceived them/explained them. Your inability to distinguish between the two is telling.
If you want to start a thread about denying the supernatural or skepticism generally, please do. But this thread is for people to discuss what they perceived happening to them.
Have you read this thread? I suggest going filtering by the OP's posts, where you will find that the person who started it is using it to tell obvious works of fiction about playing cards with a monster in the woods or the garden gnome outside coming to life and luring him out to his doom.
Once when my daughter was a wee-nipper, we had a nursery radio. Basically a walkie-talkie where so you can hear the baby rustling around and what not. One day, my wife and I are in the living room watching a film, and a loud baby cries comes through the walkie. We both were startled and looked at each other, because our daughter was at Grandma and Grandpas that night and we had accidentally left the monitor on.
In addition, my daughter had an electronic rocking Unicorn in her room. That thing was going off at all hours of the day and night singing its little song. When we moved it downstairs, it stopped randomly playing the songs.
My daughter's room was always the coldest room in the house.
Lastly, when my daughter was about 3-4 she would tell us about her friends in her room. We would hear her talking to them and playing.
Of course, all of this can and was easily dismissed and explained. However, that didn't make them less freaky in the moment.
Easy E wrote: Once when my daughter was a wee-nipper, we had a nursery radio. Basically a walkie-talkie where so you can hear the baby rustling around and what not. One day, my wife and I are in the living room watching a film, and a loud baby cries comes through the walkie. We both were startled and looked at each other, because our daughter was at Grandma and Grandpas that night and we had accidentally left the monitor on.
In addition, my daughter had an electronic rocking Unicorn in her room. That thing was going off at all hours of the day and night singing its little song. When we moved it downstairs, it stopped randomly playing the songs.
My daughter's room was always the coldest room in the house.
Lastly, when my daughter was about 3-4 she would tell us about her friends in her room. We would hear her talking to them and playing.
Of course, all of this can and was easily dismissed and explained. However, that didn't make them less freaky in the moment.
You knew that your daughters room was haunted by entities with unknown motives? And you still let her stay there?
That's what I don't get. People tell stories of horrible hauntings. Being hurt and attacked by unseen entities. I am sorry, but if something I cannot see attacked me. I would not be staying there. Why would anyone go back to that place?
Dreadwinter wrote: That's what I don't get. People tell stories of horrible hauntings. Being hurt and attacked by unseen entities. I am sorry, but if something I cannot see attacked me. I would not be staying there. Why would anyone go back to that place?
Unless.....
As Einstein said: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." People will continue to stay through pretty rough times if they hope that things get better or just stop.
If everyone quit their jobs when things were against them, or if they had a bad time one day, or things like that - we'd have a massive unemployment rate. Human nature is to be incredibly stubborn about persevering through things - even if those happened to be supernatural.
Besides, people stay in houses with terrible conditions even when they're non-supernatural. Houses with pest infestations, houses built in geographically unsafe areas, houses with massive structural defects - and they still live in them.
Dreadwinter wrote: That's what I don't get. People tell stories of horrible hauntings. Being hurt and attacked by unseen entities. I am sorry, but if something I cannot see attacked me. I would not be staying there. Why would anyone go back to that place?
Unless.....
As Einstein said: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." People will continue to stay through pretty rough times if they hope that things get better or just stop.
If everyone quit their jobs when things were against them, or if they had a bad time one day, or things like that - we'd have a massive unemployment rate. Human nature is to be incredibly stubborn about persevering through things - even if those happened to be supernatural.
Besides, people stay in houses with terrible conditions even when they're non-supernatural. Houses with pest infestations, houses built in geographically unsafe areas, houses with massive structural defects - and they still live in them.
You have an evil spirit actively terrorizing your family vs actual real life pests you can kill with poisons? I will take the pests. If something I cannot see is talking to me, throwing things at me, or harming me in any other way I am leaving that house and I am dropping a match on the way out. I would rather be homeless and I have been homeless before.
Dreadwinter wrote: You have an evil spirit actively terrorizing your family vs actual real life pests you can kill with poisons? I will take the pests. If something I cannot see is talking to me, throwing things at me, or harming me in any other way I am leaving that house and I am dropping a match on the way out. I would rather be homeless and I have been homeless before.
I don't know what I'd do. Depends how bad the hauntings are, I guess. The occasional chills, doors opening, even nudges or whispers? I can live with that. Even the rare throwing objects? I could deal with it. Constant harassment and assault, yeah, I'd leave. But honestly, I'd rather live in a house with rare/minor supernatural occurrences than live in one with glaring structural defects or pest issues, coming from someone who has lived in places with both defective plumbing and with pest issues.
It depends to a degree on how discountable it is. If I was genuinely certain supernatural phenomena was occurring; I'd be setting up cameras all over the house and getting ready to publish my Nobel Peace Prize winning paper on the existence of forces which defied the laws of physics.
Ketara wrote: It depends to a degree on how discountable it is. If I was genuinely certain supernatural phenomena was occurring; I'd be setting up cameras all over the house and getting ready to publish my Nobel Peace Prize winning paper on the existence of forces which defied the laws of physics.
And then get laughed out of... well, everywhere, because "it's obviously faked!"
Ketara wrote: It depends to a degree on how discountable it is. If I was genuinely certain supernatural phenomena was occurring; I'd be setting up cameras all over the house and getting ready to publish my Nobel Peace Prize winning paper on the existence of forces which defied the laws of physics.
And then get laughed out of... well, everywhere, because "it's obviously faked!"
Not quite. You see, after setting up my cameras and gathering initial evidence, I'd wander down to the science department and get a team together using the proof I'd gathered thus far;. Then we'd have a journal research paper written up with a few reputable names behind it. Then I'd apply for additional grant funding off the back of that to continue documenting and exploring the phenomenon.
You certainly wouldn't see it on the internet/telly/newspapers until we had something substantive to report.
Ketara wrote: It depends to a degree on how discountable it is. If I was genuinely certain supernatural phenomena was occurring; I'd be setting up cameras all over the house and getting ready to publish my Nobel Peace Prize winning paper on the existence of forces which defied the laws of physics.
And then get laughed out of... well, everywhere, because "it's obviously faked!"
Not quite. You see, after setting up my cameras and gathering initial evidence, I'd wander down to the science department and get a team together using the proof I'd gathered thus far;. Then we'd have a journal research paper written up with a few reputable names behind it. Then I'd apply for additional grant funding off the back of that to continue documenting and exploring the phenomenon.
You certainly wouldn't see it on the internet/telly/newspapers until we had something substantive to report.
And you seriously think the science department wouldn't laugh you out of there? I'd bet you any amount of money the only people who would take video evidence of paranormal activity seriously would be film students wanting to know how you got such wicked cool special effects.
Ketara wrote: It depends to a degree on how discountable it is. If I was genuinely certain supernatural phenomena was occurring; I'd be setting up cameras all over the house and getting ready to publish my Nobel Peace Prize winning paper on the existence of forces which defied the laws of physics.
And then get laughed out of... well, everywhere, because "it's obviously faked!"
Not quite. You see, after setting up my cameras and gathering initial evidence, I'd wander down to the science department and get a team together using the proof I'd gathered thus far;. Then we'd have a journal research paper written up with a few reputable names behind it. Then I'd apply for additional grant funding off the back of that to continue documenting and exploring the phenomenon.
You certainly wouldn't see it on the internet/telly/newspapers until we had something substantive to report.
And you seriously think the science department wouldn't laugh you out of there? I'd bet you any amount of money the only people who would take video evidence of paranormal activity seriously would be film students wanting to know how you got such wicked cool special effects.
If you could get a ghost or paranormal activity on video, for certain, you would get a grant so big you wouldn't know what to do with it.
People would be lining up around the block to work with you. I would be refreshing the internet every other hour to see if anything new had popped up.
It would be a big deal. But notice, that hasn't happened yet.
Easy E wrote: Once when my daughter was a wee-nipper, we had a nursery radio. Basically a walkie-talkie where so you can hear the baby rustling around and what not. One day, my wife and I are in the living room watching a film, and a loud baby cries comes through the walkie. We both were startled and looked at each other, because our daughter was at Grandma and Grandpas that night and we had accidentally left the monitor on.
In addition, my daughter had an electronic rocking Unicorn in her room. That thing was going off at all hours of the day and night singing its little song. When we moved it downstairs, it stopped randomly playing the songs.
My daughter's room was always the coldest room in the house.
Lastly, when my daughter was about 3-4 she would tell us about her friends in her room. We would hear her talking to them and playing.
Of course, all of this can and was easily dismissed and explained. However, that didn't make them less freaky in the moment.
You knew that your daughters room was haunted by entities with unknown motives? And you still let her stay there?
"Better her than me"?
Do you know how hard it is to get a decent house, at a decent price, in THIS school district!?! It would take an army of Deadites to drive me away!
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Dreadwinter wrote: That's what I don't get. People tell stories of horrible hauntings. Being hurt and attacked by unseen entities. I am sorry, but if something I cannot see attacked me. I would not be staying there. Why would anyone go back to that place?
Unless.....
There are plenty of people who stay in places that have much more obvious danger such as....
1. Hurricanes and other natural disasters
2. Structural damage or building conditions
3. Health and safety violations like chemical waste residue, high-tension power lines nearby, etc.
4. Human hazards such as domestic abuse, verbal abuse, etc.
.... is it really hard to believe people stay through less tangible issues that are "obviously not really happening" like a Supernatural danger?
Yeah, it very much is hard to believe. Have you watched the shows where people talk about it. They always describe it as a malevolent spirit trying to harm them. They have a hard time eating and sleeping. Often fearing for their own lives on a daily basis.
Hurricanes you can see coming. Structural damage isnt always that bad. Everything you mentioned has a work around. Except the domestic abuse. That one is more a psychological issue.
But there is no ghost spray. You cant have an exterminator show up and run the ghost out.
The closest I got was when I stayed at a hotel while travelling across Australia and had an empty pepsi can slide a bit across a table. All the windows were shut and there was no breeze in the room that would have been enough to have moved it as I would have felt it. I wasn't near or touching the table either at the time, nor had it appeared to move. So I just figured I couldn't figure out whatever had done it and went to sleep.
I've had some pretty unusual experiences, but talking about them makes me feel kind of stupid. It's not something trivial, either. I just know that coming out and talking about it sounds like absurd nonsense.
I might come back later because I get a little weirded out explaining it without some prep time, otherwise it just sounds goofy.
Yeah, I have a couple of stories. Three and a half, to be specific, and an a,using anecdote from my mum.
Let's preface this however by saying this: I work in science. I belive in evolution, not the book of genesis. I try to be rational and grounded in my approach to life. That said, we don't yet know everything, and there are still lots o mysteries out there that science cannot yet explain. Especially when we go into the realms of wuantum mechanics and sum-atomic theory, my understanding is very limited, but I know enough to know things get weird.I am a bit of a dreamer, and a hopeless romantic. I like to believe things like ghosts and the Loch Ness monster are real, regardless of whethe they are or not, for the simple reason that I think them being real makes life far more interesting.
First one I remember was when I was a wee kid. Probably only four or five years old. Our home is a bungalow. Bedrooms towards one end, kitchen and living room towards the other, with a long L-shaped hallway running the length of the house, opening out by the front door being at the end of the 'L'. Now, when I was that age, I had a toy 'motor city' thing built up in the hallway near the front door - basically a big set of interchangeable plastic roads, bridges and intersections. For all my toy cars, obviously. Now I was proud of this thing, like any five year old. And I built it where everyone could see, and trip over (the joy of kids, eh? ) anyway, I wake up in the middle of the night bursting to go to the loo. I get up, leave my room, cross the hallway to the bsthroom, and as I do, I look down to see my motor city. There was a figure dressed in black kneeling down by it. I went to the loo and came back out, not entirely sure what I'd seen, but I was convinced enough I'd seen something I spent the next while turning on all the lights looking for that man. Nothing.
Second one, I was a bit older. Probably eight or nine, ten at the eldest. We were abroad visiting relatives. Anyway, my mom and aunt were in the living room talking, i was in the kitchen out on my own, lying on the floor staring out at the garden. Mom calls, and I turns around. And at my feet, there was a figure dressed in black. Blink, and he's gone.
Last one, and this is the one that creeps me a bit. I was maybe twelve, thirteen at the eldest, visiting other relatives from my dad's home town. Anyway, all the adults are adulting, myself and my cousins (similar ages to me) goofing off and watching tv. I decide I'm going to do some drawing. So I wander down to the bedroom to get my pencils and sketching pad. Walk into the room eyes downcast. See a movement in the corner of my eye and look up, and I saw what I can only swear was a translucent figure of an old woman wearing a shawl walking past and then she disappeared into mid air. Here's where it get started creepy. I grab my stuff, head back and say jokingly to my cousins, obviously planning on messing with his head ' 'hey, you know your house is haunted? I just saw a ghost in your room'. I'd expected to freak him out or at least get a reaction. Nope, he calmly acnssered back. 'I know. I've seen it. An old woman in a shawl'? Yup, that was me speechless.
Fourth time isn't really a ghost story. I just remember coming back from uni one weekend. Everyone is gone to bed. At about 2am I'm woken up by the tv blaring at full volume. I go down to see who put it on. No one. Everyone else was asleep. Tv randomly came on itself, apparently. Weird.
Now, I know your rolling your eyes. I don't blame you. Like I said, I try to be rational and grounded. That first example - you could say that it was due to a young kid, barely out of toddler years and an overactive imagination. Probably include him being half asleep as well. Very well could be true.
Second example? I remember it was a sunny summers dáy, and I was staring out into the garden. Mom calls and I roll round - could easily be sunspots or going from looking at bright light into shade. Very well could be true.
Third example. I have no idea. A second person recounted the exact same thing I had seen, without any prompting. I cannot explain this one. I don't think it can be a 'ghost'. It was a new house - built in the 80s. My cousins/uncle and aunt built it and were the first ones to live in it. The idea of a previous occupier who can't let go seems tenuous. Now, I know of some theories (and calling them 'theories' is tenuous) that say space and time is simultaneous, and that all things that have happened, and will happen are still happening, somewhere and that basically, if we were to run with this, We could have seen a 'thinning' of the membrane and seen a glimpse of an old lady walking down the road. Absurd, but maybe? I like to think, maybe a hundred years ago, there was an old lady who walked by that patch of ground and would swear blind she saw a ghostly young lad when she went by. Like I said, I like the story. Similarly - that figure dresses in black looking at my toy motor city? It still makes me smile to think I've got this ghost/spirit out doing ghost and spirity things, and he stops and takes a moment to have a look at a kids pride and joy.
Silly story now. My mom used to work at an old folks home typically folks with Alzheimer's. And occasionally things would go 'bump' in the night. And occasionally people would see things - staff and patients (and I don't know how credible any of that it - scarecely would be my view, being polite!). They used to chuckle and joke about the 'ghost' being a former resident with Alzheimer's who didn't know to move on, or had forgotten how to do it. Silly, but twelve hour shifts and long days makes you see humour in some dark places.
Growing up one of my friends lived in a very old house that could be considered haunted and I saw a few things there that I still can't explain not certain it's spirit activity but I don't have any obvious answer to what caused them.
They would regularly see ball lights moving about the upstairs bedrooms and hallway. The lights would drift around in midair and sometimes move up the walls or along the ceiling eventually vanishing into the floor or walls. It wasn't a trick of lighting as it'd occur even when the shades were drawn and there wasn't a way for stray light to be reaching the hallway or bedrooms. They also seemed to move as if there was something guiding it as they'd react if there was person nearby. They could pass through doors and people, several times they would drift through us while we were watching them and it'd be a very minor jolt or electric shock when it passed through the point it touched you, a very low voltage zap sort of like the tingling you get placing a 9v battery on your tongue.
The rational part of my brain wants to say it was some sort of ball lighting or electrical disturbance but it occurred on a very frequent basis and miniature ball lightning happening inside a house seems very remote. I experienced it several times while I stayed there over the years. My friends parents were both teachers, his father is a college science professor so they are very analytical people and have spent years trying figure out what was going on and couldn't come up with any sort of solid theory despite seeing it quite frequently. It hasn't ever proven to be harmful so they just kind of shrug it off and go about their routine.
They've also seen ghostly people in the house as well, there's a woman that they believe used to be one of the former owners who died there around 1850. They did some research at the local library and found some photos of the owner and they said her photo matches up very closely with the woman they've seen walking about the house. I've personally never seen her but I've heard movement that sounds exactly like walking footsteps in the hallway even when it's empty (and you can see down the hallway from the bedroom door) My friends family said sometimes at night she walks down the hallway and comes a few steps into one of the bedrooms that used to be a nursery almost as if she's checking on a child, after that she just disappears.
I did have one sighting of a "person" that I can't really explain, underneath the house is a 5ft crawlspace that has a lot of old mid 1800's furniture that was left over from when they renovated the house. It's just sort of stashed under there and covered in drop cloths. My friend and I were going down there to find something and there was an old bed about 20 ft from the door. When we opened the door and flipped on the lightswitch there somebody was laying on the bed who abruptly sat up to look at us. We did a WTF??? look at each other and immediately slammed the door, I stayed at the door while he ran to get his dad and his older brother, who came down armed with a shotgun because our first instinct was that it was a burglar. We systematically searched the whole area under the house and pulled up every one the drop cloths and nobody was in there. His dad wasn't sure what to make of the situation since the only way in or out was through the door we'd entered which had been padlocked before we went in, there's no way to just climb up into the house somewhere and there's no windows as those had all been covered up when they remodeled. We were both certain we saw the same exact thing of a man sit up and look at us with a bit of a startled expression and he was wearing an old time full length style suit. It was really odd because it happened in the middle of the day and we both saw him.
I'm reluctant to call the events at his house ghosts, but I have no rational explanations for what we've seen there. It was also close to 30 years ago so we didn't have all sorts of night vision and motion activated cameras to do more detail investigations. I haven't talked with them in a long time but I'd love to know if they ever looked into things more since then.
I have deleted a bunch of off-topic posts arguing about the existence of ghosts, burden of proof, etc. Please keep in mind we have a separate thread for that discussion here:
Genuine question here for the believers, based on my own perceptions.
Whenever I see an American account of a ghost encounter, more often than not the ghost resembles someone from the mid 1800’s. Is this significant? Is it down to civil war “bad vibes” causing so many ghosts to be from this period? Or is it just a convenient case of old enough to be removed from anyone still alive but still modern enough to have pictures or accounts of the people available?
I hardly ever seem to see stories about Native American ghosts, or redcoats haunting an old fort for example. Why is the mid 1800’s so, for want of a better word, popular?
Nostromodamus wrote: Genuine question here for the believers, based on my own perceptions.
Whenever I see an American account of a ghost encounter, more often than not the ghost resembles someone from the mid 1800’s. Is this significant? Is it down to civil war “bad vibes” causing so many ghosts to be from this period? Or is it just a convenient case of old enough to be removed from anyone still alive but still modern enough to have pictures or accounts of the people available?
I hardly ever seem to see stories about Native American ghosts, or redcoats haunting an old fort for example. Why is the mid 1800’s so, for want of a better word, popular?
For the same reason people with 'old souls' being 'reborn' are always ancient Roman or Egyptian or something; rather than an Elamite gak shoveller.
Nostromodamus wrote: Genuine question here for the believers, based on my own perceptions.
Whenever I see an American account of a ghost encounter, more often than not the ghost resembles someone from the mid 1800’s. Is this significant? Is it down to civil war “bad vibes” causing so many ghosts to be from this period? Or is it just a convenient case of old enough to be removed from anyone still alive but still modern enough to have pictures or accounts of the people available?
I hardly ever seem to see stories about Native American ghosts, or redcoats haunting an old fort for example. Why is the mid 1800’s so, for want of a better word, popular?
This probably straddles the line between the two threads.
I think you've more noticed that there's an obvious trend in what ghost stories tend to get mass media or popular culture attention than anything. One of the neat things in this thread is that the stories posters share here are very different from the ones that end up in book stores or blogs. Those almost always correlate to some movie that recently came out, or some period of popular history. Or Tourism. Lots of published ghost lore is ultimately about the tourism industry. This thread has had a notable lack of such common cliches, probably because it's not being filtered through financial interests.
Here's another one .. most likely all in my head from stress or whatever, but still.
My mom died a while ago. On the night she died, I was in bed, wasn't even trying to fall asleep yet.. and I heard her voice say "That's my son" plain as day, kinda like she was pointing me out and talking to someone else.
Nostromodamus wrote: Genuine question here for the believers, based on my own perceptions.
Whenever I see an American account of a ghost encounter, more often than not the ghost resembles someone from the mid 1800’s. Is this significant? Is it down to civil war “bad vibes” causing so many ghosts to be from this period? Or is it just a convenient case of old enough to be removed from anyone still alive but still modern enough to have pictures or accounts of the people available?
I hardly ever seem to see stories about Native American ghosts, or redcoats haunting an old fort for example. Why is the mid 1800’s so, for want of a better word, popular?
Battleground, Indiana is named after the battle between William Henry Harrison's forces and a native uprising force. Supposedly, in a spot on the memorial site, you can hear the natives marching out to the battlefield. Haven't experienced it, but heard several people in the area who claimed to.
Nostromodamus wrote: Genuine question here for the believers, based on my own perceptions.
Whenever I see an American account of a ghost encounter, more often than not the ghost resembles someone from the mid 1800’s. Is this significant? Is it down to civil war “bad vibes” causing so many ghosts to be from this period? Or is it just a convenient case of old enough to be removed from anyone still alive but still modern enough to have pictures or accounts of the people available?
I hardly ever seem to see stories about Native American ghosts, or redcoats haunting an old fort for example. Why is the mid 1800’s so, for want of a better word, popular?
Battleground, Indiana is named after the battle between William Henry Harrison's forces and a native uprising force. Supposedly, in a spot on the memorial site, you can hear the natives marching out to the battlefield. Haven't experienced it, but heard several people in the area who claimed to.
Did they hear it before or after being told about people hearing it?
Nostromodamus wrote: Genuine question here for the believers, based on my own perceptions.
Whenever I see an American account of a ghost encounter, more often than not the ghost resembles someone from the mid 1800’s. Is this significant? Is it down to civil war “bad vibes” causing so many ghosts to be from this period? Or is it just a convenient case of old enough to be removed from anyone still alive but still modern enough to have pictures or accounts of the people available?
I hardly ever seem to see stories about Native American ghosts, or redcoats haunting an old fort for example. Why is the mid 1800’s so, for want of a better word, popular?
Battleground, Indiana is named after the battle between William Henry Harrison's forces and a native uprising force. Supposedly, in a spot on the memorial site, you can hear the natives marching out to the battlefield. Haven't experienced it, but heard several people in the area who claimed to.
Did they hear it before or after being told about people hearing it?
I'll get around to asking anyone who will admit to experiencing it, but I'd wager that SOMEONE had to experience it first. At any rate, it appears to be more of a residual haunt than anything intelligent.
Just Tony wrote: ... but I'd wager that SOMEONE had to experience it first.
That is not necessarily true. Someone could have just read something about people hearing things somewhere else with a similar history, then told someone else about it, who then told someone else and over all the retellings it morphed into people hearing it at this location. That is just as plausible an explanation.
When you tell someone that a specific sound can be heard, they become much more likely to hear that sound. Just look at the old backmasking hysteria, especially the Judas Priest court case.
Nostromodamus wrote: Genuine question here for the believers, based on my own perceptions.
Whenever I see an American account of a ghost encounter, more often than not the ghost resembles someone from the mid 1800’s. Is this significant? Is it down to civil war “bad vibes” causing so many ghosts to be from this period? Or is it just a convenient case of old enough to be removed from anyone still alive but still modern enough to have pictures or accounts of the people available?
I hardly ever seem to see stories about Native American ghosts, or redcoats haunting an old fort for example. Why is the mid 1800’s so, for want of a better word, popular?
There's lots of areas that are said to be haunted by Native Americans, usually areas that were once burial grounds or sacred areas. There's a local burial ground near me that was paved over for a road and there's an abnormal amount of fatal accidents along that stretch of road and lot of people have claimed to have swerved and lost control because they suddenly saw people standing in the road at night. It passes right through a prairie/wetland preserve which tends to generate a lot of fog in the late hours so it could be a more normal explanation but a lot of local people say the road is haunted. There's a subdivision that was built over what used to be tribal land and a number of people living there report seeing native people. I've never seen any of it so I can't comment firsthand but I've heard a lot of secondhand accounts.
Huge stretches of our country wasn't settled much before before the early 1800's, assuming people are seeing actual ghost the earliest period would be late Colonial early 1800's for seeing non-native people. In Europe people have been living there for several thousand years so a haunting could stretch back much further. But who knows maybe there's a time cap on how long spirits can reside somewhere before they fade away? People that study hauntings generally find that they are tied to the inhabitants of the houses or buildings at the time (and likely died there or had a strong emotional connection there) We don't have too many buildings that go back more than 200 years.
If ghost are connected in part to the physical buildings where they lived & died in it might explain why native ghosts are less common in people's homes as they didn't really leave permanent buildings or structures behind the way we do. People still report seeing native ghosts but they tend to be seen more often at outdoor locations, or areas that nowdays seem empty because whatever tents or temporary structures have long since disappeared.
) anyway, I wake up in the middle of the night bursting to go to the loo. I get up, leave my room, cross the hallway to the bsthroom, and as I do, I look down to see my motor city. There was a figure dressed in black kneeling down by it. I went to the loo and came back out, not entirely sure what I'd seen, but I was convinced enough I'd seen something I spent the next while turning on all the lights looking for that man. Nothing.
