Personally I've always hated the lore regarding 'Machine Spirits.' Reading BL books I've come across everything from the machine spirit speaking to pilots/characters etc, to the machine spirit of a land raider operating independently from its crew members. It just seems so dumb to me. And to fix it you wouldn't even have to change anything, just stop referring to 'machine spirits' as actual sentient beings. you could still have mechanicum priests praying to the spirits, and even suggest that some machines almost have their own personalities. As an engineer myself I'm well aware that there are often little performance differences across machines of the same type that almost make them appear as their own characters, just dont make it so overt as to make them sentient.
Are there any parts of the 40k lore you especially dislike? Share and discuss your gripes here.
Machine Spirits are a key part of the background. They serve to demonstrate just how little man's technology is understood. To us, it's just a computer programme, albeit a sophisticated one.
All serves to show just how pig ignorant even the higher ups in the Mechanicus are, and how doomed the whole thing is.
There's also the possibility that the Machine Spirits in certain machines (such as Titans, where the Princeps has to actively dominate it) may be previously sentient designs that have been lobotomised to prevent too much independent thought and action.
The background I dislike is more a matter of exclusion than inclusion, and that's The Dark Mechanicum (or indeed, The Mechanicum, given the loyalist version was reorganised and rebranded during the Heresy).
They're such a crucial part of the renegade war machine, yet we know next to nothing about them. We know they deal with marrying Daemons to Technology. We know they trade in slaves and souls. But that's about it.
Given a large chunk of the reason to side with Horus was a lifting of a great many restrictions, where's the pay off? Where's the hideous gribbly nasties produced from their unholy research and development? Because to be honest, the smattering of Daemon Engines (many of which are actually made in Godly Foundries), there's not an awful lot to show for it.
I personally envisage them as somewhere between demented Mekboy, and well learned Techpriest. Always tinkering. Always pushing what's possible. Capable, but possibly uninterested, in creating mass production, instead favouring one-offs by their nature.
They play an important role for the renegade chapters and legions, yet the background just doesn't properly reflect it.
Their actions also go someway to explaining why Renegades don't keep Imperial tech around. In my head canon, they're forcibly stripped of it. Thunder Hammers, Stormshields, Landspeeders, Assault Cannons. Anything even vaguely 'modern' is taken as tribute, likely willingly. Yes, an Assault Cannon is a better weapon in a fight to a Reaper Autocannon. But it also requires far, far more maintence to keep it in any semblance of working order. When you're a Renegade Chapter or Company, do you want to be paying the tariff to keep your Landspeeders in the air, or focus on your Predators and Transports? Which can you more readily do without? Which is going to need the least visits to the creepy Renegade Magos? Which is going to incur the least debt? And what does the Dark Mechanicum do with those shiny pretties? Are they stockpiling them? Stripping for parts? Repurposing? What's the power structure on a fallen Forgeworld? How does one attain and retain station? How does it all function?
This all needs to be properly explored within the lore.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Machine Spirits are a key part of the background. They serve to demonstrate just how little man's technology is understood. To us, it's just a computer programme, albeit a sophisticated one.
All serves to show just how pig ignorant even the higher ups in the Mechanicus are, and how doomed the whole thing is.
There's also the possibility that the Machine Spirits in certain machines (such as Titans, where the Princeps has to actively dominate it) may be previously sentient designs that have been lobotomised to prevent too much independent thought and action.
The background I dislike is more a matter of exclusion than inclusion, and that's The Dark Mechanicum (or indeed, The Mechanicum, given the loyalist version was reorganised and rebranded during the Heresy).
They're such a crucial part of the renegade war machine, yet we know next to nothing about them. We know they deal with marrying Daemons to Technology. We know they trade in slaves and souls. But that's about it.
Given a large chunk of the reason to side with Horus was a lifting of a great many restrictions, where's the pay off? Where's the hideous gribbly nasties produced from their unholy research and development? Because to be honest, the smattering of Daemon Engines (many of which are actually made in Godly Foundries), there's not an awful lot to show for it.
I personally envisage them as somewhere between demented Mekboy, and well learned Techpriest. Always tinkering. Always pushing what's possible. Capable, but possibly uninterested, in creating mass production, instead favouring one-offs by their nature.
They play an important role for the renegade chapters and legions, yet the background just doesn't properly reflect it.
Their actions also go someway to explaining why Renegades don't keep Imperial tech around. In my head canon, they're forcibly stripped of it. Thunder Hammers, Stormshields, Landspeeders, Assault Cannons. Anything even vaguely 'modern' is taken as tribute, likely willingly. Yes, an Assault Cannon is a better weapon in a fight to a Reaper Autocannon. But it also requires far, far more maintence to keep it in any semblance of working order. When you're a Renegade Chapter or Company, do you want to be paying the tariff to keep your Landspeeders in the air, or focus on your Predators and Transports? Which can you more readily do without? Which is going to need the least visits to the creepy Renegade Magos? Which is going to incur the least debt? And what does the Dark Mechanicum do with those shiny pretties? Are they stockpiling them? Stripping for parts? Repurposing? What's the power structure on a fallen Forgeworld? How does one attain and retain station? How does it all function?
This all needs to be properly explored within the lore.
Thats fair enough. I guess being an engineer I see machines and stuff like that as the synergy of their working components and the human ingenuity that created them. its not that I don't care for the sentimentalization of machinery, I dont think many people with a technical mindset could imagine working with their machines for so long and not feeling like they almost have a sort of soul, I just dont think they need to be these overtly sentient beings that can talk to their pilots etc. I just feel like the whole lore of the unification and the great crusade, this showcase of mans might, and that the machines having these sentient souls takes away from the perception of this massive technological power.
I completely agree about the dark mechanicus. They are hugely under-represented both in the lore and in the miniatures range(although I believe this is possibly about to change?) at the moment they are just a plot device to show that the traitor legions still have the capacity to acquire arms and equipment. a BL novel concerning the DM would be awesome, and as you say, there is huge scope for the subject to cover.
Daemon invasion interrupting the attack on Baal. Just cuz.
Was silly wand waving stuff imo.
Made even sillier by the idea that Ka'Bandah had somehow intervened so he could keep up his feud with the BAs.
Newcrons, Primaris and the Siege of Fenris are the top three for me.
Newcrons are just worse than oldcrons in most ways IMO, Primaris were an alright idea done terribly with ridiculous characters courtesy of Cawl and the Siege of Fenris felt dumb from the Axe of Morkai still being Chaosy to the fact it was the Thousand Sons attacking Fenris. For reasons.
I personally can see why they shifted the lore on Necrons, and it even plays into their faction "waking up" as they shifted from unknown automatons to thinking beings - at least at the lord level.
Warhammer already has Tyranids as the almost totally unknown faction (all their lore is written from reports of interactions with the, even in the Codex Tyranids have no "voice" of the hive to express themselves).
What I tend to dislike is the casual disconnection of structure. Both in a sense of where things happen and in a sense of timelines. I think GW also struggles with this as sometimes events and characters line up in their books which should, in theory, be impossible.
Of course operating at Galactic scale gives them loads of room to have whole systems destroyed and rosters of key characters obliterated without it affecting the greater extent of the factions and their relative standing toward each other.
AoS also suffers from this, esp in that there isn't really a dating system for stories to key into. So you can be reading one that sounds like its set earlier and another that sounds like its set generations later. Yet you've no real solid point of reference to infer from. About the only reference point is the return of the Stormcast - and casual writing about that (in a story not focused on that event) can be open to interpretation.
Characters in far off realms just hearing about it might well be getting news fast or it could be the news took two or three generations to reach them.
I agree about Primaris. I've always said they shouldve kept them as a new mark of armour to accompany the upscaling, and left it at that, no origin stories etc.
Most of the details about the Heresy. A lot of that is the tone; I got into the 40k setting with 1st edition Space Marine, where the high gothic and baroque feel was still in its infancy - Space Marines and Primarchs were more recognisably human with human emotions and responses. The language in that game wasn't so baroque either. I think that gave it a different feel to 40k, but I might be misremembering.
I liked the early Horus Heresy novels - the first four especially. After that though, it became clear they were going to drag this out for ages (rather like M*A*S*H lasting longer than the Korean War, Black Library have made their novel series last longer than a galactic conflict! ). I packed it in halfway through Nemesis and haven't looked back. The bits I've picked up from Lexicanum and this forum read like bad comic book plots.
Other than that - although perhaps related - it's when they go into too much detail about something that they clearly don't know enough about. Military enthusiasts have been rolling their eyes over the specs of tanks and suchlike that have been published over the years, for example, but a more subtle problem is that the milky way as depicted in the galactic maps isn't the same shape as the real Milky Way, and Earth appears to have moved. I'd prefer it if they just glossed over that sort of thing altogether.
The HH series. Everything about it. We do not need to know the exact details of something that happened in 40k's timeline that goes back than recorded human history in our own. It's a bloated cash cow of a load of manchildren that has reduced most of them to memes and/or had Flanderized them.
40k now becoming a "story" and everyone being cool with this, and heaven forbid you bring this point up ion Reddit etc.. This ties back the above point. Why was a sandbox of 10,000 years of history on a galactic scale of untold number of planets "stagnant and boring" exactly? 40k was a setting- everything was at 2 minutes to midnight, just before the apocalypse was about to consume everything into darkness, but no. Now we've go a galaxy of untold trillions are we'll focus on the same dozen or so characters who are everywhere at once.
The Primaris. They've been hamfisted in in such a way it's embarrassing. Why have no chapters rejected them? Why has everyone just gone along with the word of a Mary Sue who is a blatant Heretek and should have executed on the spot for his crimes against the Imperium? When the the imperium suddenly become this unified entity that had everyone working towards a common goal? The imperium normally is a large juggernaut that exists despite itself with so much bureaucracy and infighting holding it back from taking over the stars. Yes, I'm sure the Indominus Crusade got a load of organizations there to get their gak together, but it would be back to normality soon enough. Where is this?
The meme-ification of 40k in general. Like how most of the internet seems to get its background knowledge from a combination of 1D4chan and Text to speech series. "Hurr durr I'mma Abby da armless" is like the height of comedy apparently because people don't want to do their research.
Certain elements of the Newcrons (Trazyn is the one thing that gets a pass). The unknowable horror that is the personal army of a handful of star vampire demi-gods was an excellent theme. Why flip the roles? In doing so you feth up the fluff about the War in Heaven and the Enslaver Plague due to your retcons GW.
The direction the Tau have veered off into- I loved it when the Tau were meant to be a republic of loads of minor alien species all together as a combined army, each covering their own deficiencies (a "greater good" if you will. ). Tau initially didn't use Titans, they took down larger things with a combined arms approach and superheavy Aircraft (the Manta was/is a Tau Titan equivalent)- Then the big suits came and the alien republic idea started to play second fiddle. I'd love for GW to go back to the well with that idea and add in loads of minor races like the Tarrelians, K'Nib, Demiurg etc. to the Tau's ranks.
The "ancient unknowable evil" of the Necrons and C'Tan was tainted for my for two reasons.
Firstly, that's what Chaos is for - the enemy beyond.
Secondly, at one point in 3rd edition, the sodding Necrons and/or C'Tan were behind everything; like the overexposure of the Heresy, it just made them rather laughable, not threatening.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Personally I've always hated the lore regarding 'Machine Spirits.' Reading BL books I've come across everything from the machine spirit speaking to pilots/characters etc, to the machine spirit of a land raider operating independently from its crew members. It just seems so dumb to me. And to fix it you wouldn't even have to change anything, just stop referring to 'machine spirits' as actual sentient beings. you could still have mechanicum priests praying to the spirits, and even suggest that some machines almost have their own personalities. As an engineer myself I'm well aware that there are often little performance differences across machines of the same type that almost make them appear as their own characters, just dont make it so overt as to make them sentient.
Are there any parts of the 40k lore you especially dislike? Share and discuss your gripes here.
Why wouldnt they be sentient?
They use lobotomized humans as door locks and sentry guns and daemons or psykers in warp drives.
Your current day engineer thinking has no place in 40k.
The machine spirit sounds more a animal that has to be controlled dependent on the type of machine of course.
War hounds have dog brains. Reavers are tigers. Land raiders have marine brains.
There might be a ban on AI, but that doesnt mean they cant plonk a brain in a jar in it.
Anything else is men of iron heresy.
How wolfy the Space Wolves are now. I collected a 2e SW army and liked the wolf emblems, the fangs, and the hazy rumour of the curse of the Wulfen.
Now Logan Grimnar rides a chariot pulled by wolves. Of course he does.
Gone totally too far, I'm afraid.
I like the heresy stuff. The forge world miniatures are amazing from a painting perspective, although I do try to snag half built/ painted bargains on ebay rather than paying full price. I also like the novels. I'd agree on there being too many though, and I avoid the ones which are collections of short stories. you cant really blame them for taking that direction though. once you start reading them you do want to carry on.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I like the heresy stuff. The forge world miniatures are amazing from a painting perspective, although I do try to snag half built/ painted bargains on ebay rather than paying full price. I also like the novels. I'd agree on there being too many though, and I avoid the ones which are collections of short stories. you cant really blame them for taking that direction though. once you start reading them you do want to carry on.
I've only read one BL novel so far and it was terrible. I've got Betrayer by ADB up next which gets good reviews to change my mind.
I like the idea that reality in 40k is breaking down, hence the increasing number of psyckers, and that more than just humans have souls (and that the utility of spiritual care for a weapon is effective for the weapon, as well as a good way of ensuring proper maintenance).
I dislike the Primaris as well, which annoys me because the models are gorgeous. I wish they'd just shrunk the guardsmen models.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Personally I've always hated the lore regarding 'Machine Spirits.' Reading BL books I've come across everything from the machine spirit speaking to pilots/characters etc, to the machine spirit of a land raider operating independently from its crew members. It just seems so dumb to me. And to fix it you wouldn't even have to change anything, just stop referring to 'machine spirits' as actual sentient beings. you could still have mechanicum priests praying to the spirits, and even suggest that some machines almost have their own personalities. As an engineer myself I'm well aware that there are often little performance differences across machines of the same type that almost make them appear as their own characters, just dont make it so overt as to make them sentient.
Are there any parts of the 40k lore you especially dislike? Share and discuss your gripes here.
Why wouldnt they be sentient?
They use lobotomized humans as door locks and sentry guns and daemons or psykers in warp drives.
Your current day engineer thinking has no place in 40k.
The machine spirit sounds more a animal that has to be controlled dependent on the type of machine of course.
War hounds have dog brains. Reavers are tigers. Land raiders have marine brains.
There might be a ban on AI, but that doesnt mean they cant plonk a brain in a jar in it.
Anything else is men of iron heresy.
nothing in the books mentions the machinery containing interfaced human brains or genetic material. sure, some have interface cables to their human crew, but in that case surely the machine should take on the personality of the crewman?
I'm aware of pointing out the 'silliness' of machines having spirits within the fantastical context of the 40k universe, but it just seems unnecessarily silly for the sake of it.
plus lore wise, pre hersey everyone generally accepts that there are no gods/religion, but blindly accepts that their tank has a spirit of its own?
nothing in the books mentions the machinery containing interfaced human brains or genetic material. sure, some have interface cables to their human crew, but in that case surely the machine should take on the personality of the crewman?
I'm aware of pointing out the 'silliness' of machines having spirits within the fantastical context of the 40k universe, but it just seems unnecessarily silly for the sake of it.
plus lore wise, pre hersey everyone generally accepts that there are no gods/religion, but blindly accepts that their tank has a spirit of its own?
No gods/religion is a bit different from sticking a brain in a jar and saying theres your cpu.
Jerry soldier and burt marine dont even know how to reset a track. But might slap her walls and say take care of us armoured fury.
Well i dont expect a princeps to understand how all the bits work. But a titan crew interfaces with something animalistic that fights against the crew. Eventually they do sort of take on the princeps personalities. Like a dog straining at the leash. That eventually knows whos master
Theres plenty of them using servitors as door locks and sentry guns.
There was the diagram of the land raider that had one. Way way back.
There was a Tau book that had them pouring over a wrecked Imperial ship. They were attempting to dismantle the warp drive that had a soup of dna in it. After touching it even the tau got a touch of the daemon. One of the Farsight books maybe?
Servitors are different though. Theyre just humans with some non organic bits stuck on.
And in that case, they aren't really pure machines, but cyborgs containing human intellect or something. If thats the case it should be made clearer really, rather than.. Here's a tank it gets mad of its own accord but there's no explanation other than it has a 'spirit'
queen_annes_revenge wrote:I like the heresy stuff. The forge world miniatures are amazing from a painting perspective, although I do try to snag half built/ painted bargains on ebay rather than paying full price. I also like the novels. I'd agree on there being too many though, and I avoid the ones which are collections of short stories. you cant really blame them for taking that direction though. once you start reading them you do want to carry on.
I totally agree on the excellent model from FW, when I started my Salamanders at the end of RT I really wanted to hear more about the backstory(i know big changes yayayaya) but with them fleshing out the Heresey and actually trying to create a cohesive mythos i can really get behind it. I'm eagerly awaiting the Siege of Terra and what models they might bring out for it. They do need to show more of the Dark Mech and civilian perspectives to really bring the Siege to life.
What do I dislike about the lore? How they did they screwed over the Squats by just lazily writing them out as being chomped by the nids. The real kick in the balls is how well they made the Kharadrons more squatty than they ever made the Squats. Grombrindal is wearing power armour and Grendl is badass, so WTFGW?
The Ynnari having the capacity to cure the Rubric. I don't think there should be any indication the Rubric is curable in the first place; the whole point of it is that Ahriman's quest is probably impossible but he's going to keep trying anyways because that's just how Tzeentchy the guy is. The fact that they made curing the Rubric an effortless endeavor for their new super special knife ear waifu is just salt in the wound.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The "ancient unknowable evil" of the Necrons and C'Tan was tainted for my for two reasons.
Firstly, that's what Chaos is for - the enemy beyond.
Secondly, at one point in 3rd edition, the sodding Necrons and/or C'Tan were behind everything; like the overexposure of the Heresy, it just made them rather laughable, not threatening.
I think Chaos is more of the enemy within. The Eldar fell to it because they decided self control was for nerds and started knifing each other, Chaos gets servants by people falling to desire for power or bloodlust and demons are made from emotion.
1. I don't mind Machine Spirits that much, they've always come across to me as a rudimentary AI that still needs human interaction to function, similar to your PC operating system, they're just there in the background.
What I'm not a fan of however is the level of religious zealotry that's prevalent in the AdMec, when repairs are like "Apply the sacred unguents to the machine while reciting the Rite of Repair and sacrificing a small child", I imagine they're actually much more technically inclined and actually repair stuff properly.
2. I don't mind the Primaris that much, was a bit weird to bring Guilliman back and they missed the opportunity to bring back old characters rather than new ones never-before mentioned (Mordrak and Valeria would be an excellent replacement for the GK and Inquisitor triumvriate who's names escape me), and the whole Indominatus Crusade takes place over centuries, I can imagine in that timeline there probably are Chapters which refuse the Primaris first of all, but may have been "convinced" by Guilliman to do so.
3. With the HH, I don't necessarily mind how long it has taken, more about the sheer number of things they're releasing. Before, you had books, and maybe the odd compilation, whereas now you have books, audiobooks, short stories, unabridged editions, limited editions and so on.
To me, "machine spirit" is three things, simultaneously and occasionally overlapping;
A synonym for the Omnissiah - or a part thereof. Whatever it is that makes machines holy and deserving of worship in of themselves. This is a general "machine spirit", not connected to a single device.
The "spirit" of each individual machine. This could be as a fragment of the overall "machine spirit", I suppose. This is what's "appeased" by the rituals and unguents of construction, maintenance and operation
A machine intelligence - it could be something as simple as Alexa, Cortana or whatever Google call theirs, up to a genuine sapient artificial intelligence like UR-025. In this case, a "machine spirit" will be the sanctioned kind of machine intelligence, as distinguished from an Abominable Intelligence which is to be shunned and destroyed. How one distinguishes the two kinds may not be obvious to the layman.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The distinction could be 'have we had multiple instances reported of these Spirits actively trying to kill us, known malfunctions aside'?
What's a malfunction?
Nay good sir you are thinking incorrectly. A machine spirit cannot malfunction, it is the pure essence of the machine will. If it is pure and true to the Emperor and Imperium of Man it will serve just as any guardsman or human of the Imperium would. To further the cause of mankind and protect it from the xeno, the mutant, the accursed and the unclean.
If the machine spirit becomes corrupted by the forces of chaos, if its will is twisted by decay and lies. Then such a spirit will fall to the forces of evil and must be purged.
Machine spirits are strong, but as the Iron Men showed, they are flawed and so easily corrupted by the darkness of Chaos, unlike the sanctified mind of a human. Thus one must always remain alert and see that duty, prayer and worship of the machine and its spirit is conducted without flaw or pause. To ensure that the spirit remains clean of the taint of chaos and that any infection is rooted out and machines purged from the Imperium.
(or more basically, keep it in good repair, fix it up and if you notice bits of it wriggling or talking to you BURN IT
Valkyrie wrote: 1. I don't mind Machine Spirits that much, they've always come across to me as a rudimentary AI that still needs human interaction to function, similar to your PC operating system, they're just there in the background.
What I'm not a fan of however is the level of religious zealotry that's prevalent in the AdMec, when repairs are like "Apply the sacred unguents to the machine while reciting the Rite of Repair and sacrificing a small child", I imagine they're actually much more technically inclined and actually repair stuff properly.
That's a big part of the whole 40K setting. Mankind has fallen and doesn't actually understand all of its technology any more. What was once a maintenance routine has devolved into a religious ritual. My take on the machine spirit is that it is just an AI built into the more advanced vehicles like Land Raiders.
Bit of the lore that I don't like? Orks = space fungus.
Yeah I don't like the idea of them being fungus either.
It seems weird, that so far in the future humans would forget how to use spanners and hammers, especially considering the techno barbarian predecessors to the imperium.
Valkyrie wrote: 1. I don't mind Machine Spirits that much, they've always come across to me as a rudimentary AI that still needs human interaction to function, similar to your PC operating system, they're just there in the background.
What I'm not a fan of however is the level of religious zealotry that's prevalent in the AdMec, when repairs are like "Apply the sacred unguents to the machine while reciting the Rite of Repair and sacrificing a small child", I imagine they're actually much more technically inclined and actually repair stuff properly.
That's a big part of the whole 40K setting. Mankind has fallen and doesn't actually understand all of its technology any more. What was once a maintenance routine has devolved into a religious ritual. My take on the machine spirit is that it is just an AI built into the more advanced vehicles like Land Raiders.
Bit of the lore that I don't like? Orks = space fungus.
PERPETUALS! And most other stuff from the BLHH series. And the beast arises stuff. PRIME ORKS! Utter rubbish.
As for space fungus I am fine with algae in blood symbiosis but not sure about the rest. But spore reproduction explains the lack of obvious genders amongst ORKS.
I like that the orks are fungus. Makes things interesting. If everything in space was mammal, reptile, insect or some other type of animal, then it would get old rather fast.
so what makes a machine spirit? is it a human brain or part thereof contained within the machine? and if thats the case, why have pilots/crewmen at all? surely its just a servitor with less human in its makeup?
The amount of space Space Marines (and other mutants in PA) take in the lore considering how little of them there are. The constant one upping of their abilities, I really don't like that they're now considered demigods of war or whatever, same goes for Custodes and Primarchs. So I also don't like the HH.
40k is a fantasy setting that happens to be set in the far future. Or did the space knights, Orks, Elves and Dwarfs not give it away? Melee being prevalent is absolutely appropriate to the setting.
Imperial Guard and Tau are my two favorite faction, plenty of good books about them to read. The fact that these two exist shows that melee isn't THE core, as its entirely possible for them to do without and still have those faction fitting the universe.
Amusing to bring up Imperial Guard when one of their most iconic characters is know for going toe-to-toe with orks with his big power fist and a tank commander is the iconic "drive me closer! i want to him them with my sword!" image.
Tau were introduced precisely for that snivelly "well ACTUALLY melee doesn't work in a highly advanced science fiction setting" so they don't count. The only valid Tau is Commander Farsight.
Arachnofiend wrote: Amusing to bring up Imperial Guard when one of their most iconic characters is know for going toe-to-toe with orks with his big power fist and a tank commander is the iconic "drive me closer! i want to him them with my sword!" image.
Tau were introduced precisely for that snivelly "well ACTUALLY melee doesn't work in a highly advanced science fiction setting" so they don't count. The only valid Tau is Commander Farsight.
A character I don't use, he doesn't fit in my gunline or airborne Scion. I wish GW would release a human special character with a rifle at some point, considering how everything is supposed to be better than humans in close combat, its stupid that most of their characters are supposed to be those melee guys.
Arachnofiend wrote: a tank commander is the iconic "drive me closer! i want to him them with my sword!" image.
A meme, and it actually shows the stupid of melee combat when you're cruising around in a tank.
Arachnofiend wrote: Tau were introduced precisely for that snivelly "well ACTUALLY melee doesn't work in a highly advanced science fiction setting" so they don't count. The only valid Tau is Commander Farsight.
Its precisely why they're cool, its a shame they're not human.
pm713 wrote: Even Tau have melee units. I really don't get the hate for melee. It makes much more sense in the setting of 40k.
A dumb decision, they should have spent resources making sure the idiots with melee weapons don't reach their lines in the first place.
When some of your enemies just keep coming in endless waves it's worth having at least someone who can use a club. Besides it's not like ambushes aren't a thing.
pm713 wrote: When some of your enemies just keep coming in endless waves it's worth having at least someone who can use a club. Besides it's not like ambushes aren't a thing.
"Learn to shorten your reach! If your foe can come close enough to negate your striking power, all strategem is lost and when all strategem is lost the battle is lost."- Commander Farsight.
Grimtuff wrote: They do- The "resources" are called Kroot and they're pretty much second class citizens in their empire.
Aren't the Kroot actually bad for that now? Die to a stiff breeze, no real bonuses or protection, just cheaper and weaker shooting and slight repositioning shenanigans.
A dumb decision, they should have spent resources making sure the idiots with melee weapons don't reach their lines in the first place.
Except they have though? You know resources are limited, right? And that one of those resources are ammunition, which is subject to supply times and reloading? The whole point behind Farsight is that he saw that having to engage in close combat is sometimes necessary, and that not training your soldiers in it might turn out badly.
I dunno, it kinda makes sense to certain decree that humanity and in particular Imperium(and the chaos worshippers, who tend to be an offshoot of it) would favor simpler melee over more scientific ranged combat since themitically humanity has become a decaying, fearful and superstisious lot that slowly regresses as it curls up on itself.
Compare this to Tau(who GW kinda thematically uses represent all the younger species who can't be fitted on the tabletop) who see close combat as primitive. It sorta shows this juxtapose between the young seeking new things and the old falling back to tried-and-true. That species first advances from the stone age, peaks, and then finally regress back to it, as others rise to take its place. Or maybe it implies that being a shut-in stunts growth and eventually leads to decay.
I'm of course talking in VERY broad strokes. That or I might just be rambling nonsense, I dunno,but food for thought.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: I dunno, it kinda makes sense to certain decree that humanity and in particular Imperium(and the chaos worshippers, who tend to be an offshoot of it) would favor simpler melee over more scientific ranged combat since themitically humanity has become a decaying, fearful and superstisious lot that slowly regresses as it curls up on itself.
Compare this to Tau(who GW kinda thematically uses represent all the younger species who can't be fitted on the tabletop) who see close combat as primitive. It sorta shows this juxtapose between the young seeking new things and the old falling back to tried-and-true. That species first advances from the stone age, peaks, and then finally regress back to it, as others rise to take its place.
I'm of course talking in VERY broad strokes. That or I might just be rambling nonsense, I dunno,but food for thought.
The real answer is that 40k isn't a serious sci-fi franchise, it's fantasy in space. Complaining about chainswords is about as pointless as complaining about lightsabers, if you take the silliness away and require the setting to stand on its own against "real" sci-fi then it doesn't look good.
Grimtuff wrote: They do- The "resources" are called Kroot and they're pretty much second class citizens in their empire.
Aren't the Kroot actually bad for that now? Die to a stiff breeze, no real bonuses or protection, just cheaper and weaker shooting and slight repositioning shenanigans.
You're on the 40k background forum bud. I was referring to them in that sense.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: I dunno, it kinda makes sense to certain decree that humanity and in particular Imperium(and the chaos worshippers, who tend to be an offshoot of it) would favor simpler melee over more scientific ranged combat since themitically humanity has become a decaying, fearful and superstisious lot that slowly regresses as it curls up on itself.
Compare this to Tau(who GW kinda thematically uses represent all the younger species who can't be fitted on the tabletop) who see close combat as primitive. It sorta shows this juxtapose between the young seeking new things and the old falling back to tried-and-true. That species first advances from the stone age, peaks, and then finally regress back to it, as others rise to take its place.
I'm of course talking in VERY broad strokes. That or I might just be rambling nonsense, I dunno,but food for thought.
The real answer is that 40k isn't a serious sci-fi franchise, it's fantasy in space. Complaining about chainswords is about as pointless as complaining about lightsabers, if you take the silliness away and require the setting to stand on its own against "real" sci-fi then it doesn't look good.
Grimtuff wrote: They do- The "resources" are called Kroot and they're pretty much second class citizens in their empire.
Aren't the Kroot actually bad for that now? Die to a stiff breeze, no real bonuses or protection, just cheaper and weaker shooting and slight repositioning shenanigans.
You're on the 40k background forum bud. I was referring to them in that sense.
Kroot are more into guerrilla warfare than front-line combat anyway.
I don't think the Tau use kroot like hoplites. Although that might be an idea for an auxiliary race.
That's something they need to focus more on - the auxiliary races. I mean, that's the whole idea about the Tau, isn't it? That they have all these races working for them? That needs to be developed upon.
There is no way that I would not have a melee weapon on me in REAL combat. every single soldier currently is issued a bayonet and most of the time carry a larger actual combat knife. there are times when slitting a sentries throat is necessary or you are out of ammo, you kinda cant do that with a gun. Hand to hand is a significant portion of any basic military initial training.
Yes, nobody really wants to get into melee but Murphy has a law for that.
but melee is an integral part of fantasy and like others have said wfb in spaaaaaaaacccccceeeeee(said in best mel Brooks voice).
Yes, we carry bayonets, but we don't go out and fight with a sword and shield, that would be stupid. Its something you can be prepared for, but its not your main way of attacking
Yeah, surely if all you want is ranged weapons, a historical/modern base game would be more suitable? I think without close combat weapons the universe would be a lot more limited. Plus the games wouldn't be very interesting I cant imagine.
Bobthehero wrote: Ambushes can be done with guns, too. And those endless waves would be a lot more dangerous if they could bring good firepower.
But they don't and it doesn't really matter if the Tyranid swarm ambushes you with claws and talons or the Orks bring clubs or the Eldar bring swords. What are you going to do? Point out that guns would be better and wait for them to go and grab some?
I dislike pretty much all the Primaris fluff. It's a massive retcon and a very ham fisted way to shove new marine models into the setting. The setting gained nothing from their inclusion and as a marine player, we are already spoiled with marine content and a lot of other factions need love.
I'm torn on the change to Orks into angry mushrooms. On the one hand, it's gone along with the 40k setting of everything getting more and more serious and po-faced, away from the British 80s/2000AD-esque origins.
On the other hand, it's really sad that the 3 books of Ork background in first/second edition, which were just so characterful (and gave people a 'fun', irreverent faction to play if they didn't want to collect boring Space Marines) and the whole 'ork kulture' thing has gone.
I haven't read anything about the Primaris, but from just picking up snippets I just know that I'm going to be perfectly happy ignoring their existence
AndrewGPaul wrote: The "ancient unknowable evil" of the Necrons and C'Tan was tainted for my for two reasons.
Firstly, that's what Chaos is for - the enemy beyond.
Secondly, at one point in 3rd edition, the sodding Necrons and/or C'Tan were behind everything; like the overexposure of the Heresy, it just made them rather laughable, not threatening.
In the same way that every single piece of dangerous alien life inhabiting any planet is linked back to the Tyranids in some way. Which is restricting the imagination present in the universe somewhat.
I think most are in agreement about primaris. Its gw trying to get in on the true scale movement, which makes sense. But just make new marine models, don't try and mush a new story into it...
It's a small one, but the fused rib cage of space marines deeply bothers me. They wouldn't be able to breath or bend over, and would be much easier to break. If it was something more like overlapping, segmented plates I think I'd be okay with that. As it stands, the space marines have more in common with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles than humans.
Returning Loyal Primarchs. I'm all cool with Daemon Primarchs, but the loyalist heroes should stay dead.
Primaris bug me.
The shift in atmosphere and focus between the Oldcrons and Newcrons.
Grey Knights being playable as an army.
The Jury is out on the cicatkjhfkjdhdf maledictum(?). The Eye of Terror was awesome just as is (was).
The Horus Heresey in novel form. Imo it was better off as whispers and legends.
Edit:
The obsession with "bigness" in general. "These super warriors are taller than these other super warriors, who are even biggerer than these super warriors!" Even, or maybe especially the Primarchs. I'd rather they just be marine-sized and hyper skilled-strong-tough-smart etc. Like Paul Muad'dib isn't awesome because he grew to 12 feet tall. There's something really disappointingly childish about the whole size obsession.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The distinction could be 'have we had multiple instances reported of these Spirits actively trying to kill us, known malfunctions aside'?
Like most heresies, it probably often boils down to "I'm clearly not a heretic, so what I say must be right. You disagree, therefore you're a heretic". It's up there with "this? No, I didn't invent this. It's an old STC pattern I found down the back of my sock drawer - been there for millennia, so it must be OK". A very similar excuse to the one lots of gamers use; "these? No, dear, they're not new. I've had them for ages, you've just not seen them".
Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.
Anyway, throw my hat in for Guilliman coming back and Primaris.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Machine Spirits are a key part of the background. They serve to demonstrate just how little man's technology is understood. To us, it's just a computer programme, albeit a sophisticated one.
All serves to show just how pig ignorant even the higher ups in the Mechanicus are, and how doomed the whole thing is.
There's also the possibility that the Machine Spirits in certain machines (such as Titans, where the Princeps has to actively dominate it) may be previously sentient designs that have been lobotomised to prevent too much independent thought and action.
The background I dislike is more a matter of exclusion than inclusion, and that's The Dark Mechanicum (or indeed, The Mechanicum, given the loyalist version was reorganised and rebranded during the Heresy).
They're such a crucial part of the renegade war machine, yet we know next to nothing about them. We know they deal with marrying Daemons to Technology. We know they trade in slaves and souls. But that's about it.
Given a large chunk of the reason to side with Horus was a lifting of a great many restrictions, where's the pay off? Where's the hideous gribbly nasties produced from their unholy research and development? Because to be honest, the smattering of Daemon Engines (many of which are actually made in Godly Foundries), there's not an awful lot to show for it.
I personally envisage them as somewhere between demented Mekboy, and well learned Techpriest. Always tinkering. Always pushing what's possible. Capable, but possibly uninterested, in creating mass production, instead favouring one-offs by their nature.
They play an important role for the renegade chapters and legions, yet the background just doesn't properly reflect it.
Their actions also go someway to explaining why Renegades don't keep Imperial tech around. In my head canon, they're forcibly stripped of it. Thunder Hammers, Stormshields, Landspeeders, Assault Cannons. Anything even vaguely 'modern' is taken as tribute, likely willingly. Yes, an Assault Cannon is a better weapon in a fight to a Reaper Autocannon. But it also requires far, far more maintence to keep it in any semblance of working order. When you're a Renegade Chapter or Company, do you want to be paying the tariff to keep your Landspeeders in the air, or focus on your Predators and Transports? Which can you more readily do without? Which is going to need the least visits to the creepy Renegade Magos? Which is going to incur the least debt? And what does the Dark Mechanicum do with those shiny pretties? Are they stockpiling them? Stripping for parts? Repurposing? What's the power structure on a fallen Forgeworld? How does one attain and retain station? How does it all function?
This all needs to be properly explored within the lore.
It kind of makes sense to me that there isn't tons being pushed out by the Dark Mechanicus, as they have much more limited resources even compared to when they were loyal.
I mean, the Imperium has most of a Galaxy to plunder, while the Dark Mechanicum gets what it gets from tributes and what it can raid itself. So they can put out one super horrible gribbly in the time it takes the Imperium to make ten thousand Baneblades or Titans.
Sir Heckington wrote: Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.
I do prefer the Newcron since, indeed, the oldcrons were basically just metal Tyranids, but with crappier models (especially at the time). Plus, you can still play near mindless killing machine necrons if you consider destroyers.
Sir Heckington wrote: Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.
I think a combination of both makes for the best version. Necron lords who have gone completely insane from their consciousness being stuffed into a machine and then living for a couple millennia. Using technology we couldn't hope to understand. That makes an intimidating foe that stands out from the other races.
Easy. Captain Cortez captured by Dark Eldar. What REALLY pisses me off other than the fact that Cortez would probably have beat the whole damn raiding force with nothing more than a ball peen hammer and a case of Schlitz is that the reason for making that story canon is because Dave Thomas from GW Aus (if memory serves) got his converted Cortez model captured in a one-off game. Cortez deserves better.
I'm sure I can think of something better, but for whatever reason could never accept (or take seriously) the Iron Hands battle motto "The Flesh is Weak!"
Seems like its just missing a point. The flesh is weak... but... But what? Is it the enemies flesh? Is it their own flesh? Is this some kind of sicko flaggelation fetish?
Seems more appropriate for the Dark Eldar or Emperors Children.
I mean, compare it to the Iron Warriors battlecry. One sounds determined and strong, the other sounds like some wrist cutters.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I'm sure I can think of something better, but for whatever reason could never accept (or take seriously) the Iron Hands battle motto "The Flesh is Weak!"
Seems like its just missing a point. The flesh is weak... but... But what? Is it the enemies flesh? Is it their own flesh? Is this some kind of sicko flaggelation fetish?
To answer your questions:
1) Yes, the enemy flesh is weak, because flesh is weak
2) Yes your own flesh is weak, because flesh is weak
in resumé metal and machines are strong, organic matter is weak, less pure and corruptible.
3) Yes, it's totally a sicko flaggelation fetish that first started by uncritical admiration of Ferrus Manus powers derived from his necrodermis arms and later fuelled to insanity fetishism after his death. The Iron Hands needed to be stronger and they were not because their flesh was weak. They needed to be closer to machines.
By Imperial standards, the Iron Hands are bit insane, but not all that much compared to others. A lot of Imperial faction have a sort of fetish fuelled obsession for pain, perfection, purity and/or vengeance. The entire Adpetus Mechanicus shares their's after all.
Count me in for the Space Wolves being Wolf Wolf of the Wolf Wolf instead of just Space Vikings.
Here's an odd one: while I like the new Scion look, I actually prefer the old Stormtrooper asthetic, and that Cadians had their own version with the Kasrkin.
I don't mind Primaris, but I will agree that they could have been done better.
Some of the comparisons between the stuff available during the Horus Heresy versus actual 40k seems a bit silly to me. I can understand that the tech in the Horus Heresy is worse than the Dark Age of Technology due to cataclysmic events which would cause such a loss. However, the explanation of the tech difference between the Horus Heresy and 40k proper seems to just be "...and then they became hyper religious zealots." Just seems lazy to me.
Tons and tons of shoddy pseudo-scientific explanations. I get it's a fantasy setting and shouldn't be examined too closely for fidelity in that regard, but god I hate how everything is possible and easily explainable with: "oh, it's a genetic mutation". Humans which transform into giant werewolves? Genetic mutation! Chapter of space marines with dragon horns and scales for skin? Genetic mutation! Need to make a superhuman soldier who spits acid and has blood which can corrode steel but not his own blood vessels? Gene seed!
TRIGGER WARNING:
At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)
1) the GW explanation for why women can't be astartes. Everything I've read on this topic which explains women are genetically incompatible with and reject the primarch gene-seed is truly nonsensical. The whole "gene seed is encoded to male tissues etc." shows a profound lack of understanding of genetics and how the human body works. I think they would have been better off explaining the all male astartes as cultural/martial tradition and left it at that instead of making it a case of gender biological differences. In the real world there is no such thing as male specific tissues other than the genitals. Very little is encoded on the Y chromosome that isn't linked to reproduction and that part of the genome is inactive in all other tissues. Male and female tissues otherwise behave the same way and wouldn't reject gene-seed only because it came from the opposite sex. I think here we are slaves to making up a pseudo scientific explanation instead of them saying, "you know what? We only have male astartes, due to the strict militant fraternal traditions of Terra. It's not impossible to have female astartes, 'its just not done because the Imperium is backwards and stuck in traditions that are millennia old." This would be in my book a much more honest and acceptable explanation.
2) While we are on marine biology here's the kicker: Gene seed organs.
Total unnecessary nonsense in my mind as it really doesn't make astartes any better as soldiers. Let's take a look.
A) Secondary Heart: Supposedly implanted to help pump blood and as a backup in case the other heart fails. Problem is, if the first heart fails and these are on the same circuit, how the hell is the blood gonna pass by the original damaged heart? The valves only respond to pressure and contracture of the muscle and will not keep blood flowing through dead heart and therefore the dead heart will form a stop-cock in circulation and the marine will die anyway. Secondary heart can only work if parallel circuit of blood vessels is also implanted, but this is never mentioned. There's also a mechanical problem with two dissinchronized hearts beating together which may cause aberrant blood flow. It's a real mess; there's a reason mammals haven't evolved multiple hearts.
B) Ossmodula: Implantable device which causes secretion of special Growth Hormone to make human bones to grow fast and strong. Problem is, if you're supplying a hormone all it can do is cause the tissues you already have to respond in the natural way. The hormones activate natural receptors and even a "super hormone" which may have a really high affinity for and bind to the receptor can only do so much. We have a known diseases that affect this pathway. Presuming this is done in young kids it would cause gigantism, which while it would make them larger, it would also wreak havoc on multiple other systems and cause a lot of side effects, notably enlarging organs like the heart, meaning the marine may be prone to heart failure. The added nonsense about a diet of 'ceramic-based" minerals would not cause a stronger skeleton as the lore suggests, as we would have no way to obtain and incorporate said minerals, which are never actually individually named, because that isn't a function of growth hormone but of digestion. (This is roughly analogous to thinking that eating bits of rock will make your bones rock hard) The final bit here is about the rib cage becoming fused into one giant plate which would of course kill the marine as the only way we have of inflating a deflating our lungs other than a diaphragm is mostly reliant on the expansion of the rib cage. (This is why people buried up to their necks in mud die; they can't expant their lungs.)
C) Biscopea: Regulates the Ossomodula above, which is fair. However you're still stuck with all the problems of the Ossmodula.
D) Haemstamen: Supposedly alters blood chemistry to carry more oxygen. While this is fair and practical, we know oxygen carrying capacity of blood falls to hemoglobin. Certain conditions can cause this red-blood-cell-bound protein to hold on to oxygen more or less tightly. (This is referred to as the oxygen dissociation curve) There are risks and benefits to having your blood hold on to oxygen more tightly, most notably that if the hemoglobin holds on to more oxygen it doesn't like to let go of it when it finally gets to the tissues and results in less oxygen delivery to the tissues. This one is never explained so I am gonna let them have it as the idea is a good one and it makes sense, if they are describing some form of modified oxygen carrying protein or a new form of hemoglobin which both holds more oxygen and readily releases it at the target tissues. You get one GW.
E) Larraman's Organ: Essentially an organ that makes cells which enact a new type of blood clotting system. Supposedly the advantage is that the cells form instant clots of scar tissue in seconds and cause almost "instant cessation of bleeding". Well this is a terrible idea as any process in the body is counter-regulated by an opposite process so that it never "runs away". Let's say an astartes gets shot by enemy sniper through the torso. Bullet nicks a major blood vessel, at which point the marine starts bleeding internally. Problem is, this new blood-clotting system sees the damage and does immediate repair but the scar tissue is now blocking the blood vessel downstream. This means essentially you'll be clotting off the arm every time a blood vessel in the arm is hit, which will result in loss of that limb. This "repair" is physiologically worse for the marine than the blood loss that would have resulted had he simply kept his human clotting mechanism.
F) Catalepsan Node: Brain implant which shuts off sections of the brain off at a time so they can rest, allowing marine to stay up late. In theory it seems practical, but problem is that the brain sometimes needs to re synchronize altogether. I'm no neuroscientist but the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with. Because they were vague in their description, and because the brain is maybe the least understood of the body systems, and because they seem to be basing it on natural phenomena that appear in other animals I will let them have this one. You got two GW.
G) Preomnor: A section of the digestive tract before the stomach which breaks down toxins, and rejects materials that would kill that marine. This is good in theory but again shows lack of understanding of digestion. This is before the item eaten is digested by the body. A lot of foods have toxic metabolites; compounds that are only exposed once food has been chemically and mechanically digested. They would have been better off with a new type of liver (Which detoxifies the metabolites of food) It's also said that this organ analyzed food and decided whether to regurgitate or allow it to pass. This implies an autonomous Nervous system independent of the marine's, which means that if the marine eats something that is safe but the organ dislikes he will have no choice but to regurgitate it. In effect if this organ becomes confused (which may happen if marines are eating weird flora/fauna on campaign) it may starve the marine to death.
H) Omophage: An organ that allows marines to gain memories and info on species by eating their flesh. Total nonsense, as memories are not stored in "flesh" but instead in the brain matter of animals. They are not encoded on DNA as GW seems to think, at least not specific memories that can be replayed back like a holo-tape. Even if marines ate the enemy's "brain matter" he'd have no way of accessing and re-assembling a memory from tissue. This may be the worst one of the bunch.
I) Multi-Lung: An extra lung to allow for more breathing. Again, in a confined space of the rib cage you can only have so much stuff. Cramming a third lung into it will not make breathing more efficient, it will decrease the expansion of the primary lung. Not to mention you also have to fit in extra blood vessels going to it from the heart, making a whole lot more tissue necessary. It's also not a good idea as a backup as any insult that penetrates the chest cavity and pops one lung won't have any trouble popping the backup in the same instant.
J) Occulobe: Some kind of obscure neuro-implant which provides hormones and "genetic stimuli" to eyes which makes manipulation of the marine's eyes easier by apothecaries. Allegedly this allows superhuman acuity of sight and seeing in low-light conditions. I'm not qualified to comment on this one but it sounds shoddy as there are no specifics mentioned here. It basically says "some space magic happens here and the marine can see better". There are very few hormonal processes which would cause vision changes, and all of them are pathological, which makes this one very poorly laid out indeed.
K) Lyman's Ear: A mechanica inner ear which makes the marine immune to dizziness. (Remember spinning around in place and stopping and watching the room start to spin?) It also gives them improved hearing. An excellent and practical idea! Question is, why is it only on one side? If only one ear is replaced the marine will still experience the sensation of movement with speed on the other side, but this time it will be worse, because one ear will feel the spin and the other will not. This may lead to "vertigo" or the sensation of the room spinning with every head movement. This is debilitating to the marine. (There's a reason we have TWO inner ears)
L) Sus-an Membrane: A mysterious membrane that wraps the brain and allows gravelly wounded marines to self induce a coma until they recover. This one is practical, the only question is; why does the marine have to undergo major head surgery to achieve something that can be achieved with medication? We can induce medical comas all the time for specifically this reason. This function could be much better served by an automatic drug infusion from the marine's armor right into the blood stream. There's no physiologic reason why one has to have their brain operated on. The other stated purpose of this organ is to "keep the marine's brain alive even with grave wounds." That's not how brain work. If you're bleeding out on the battle field, the only way your brain can survive is to have fresh oxygen rich blood supplied to it. The moment the marine belled out, he will pass out and the brain will die unless necessitated quickly. (Lack of blood flow to brain is what strokes are)
M) Melanochrome: This is said to be a hormonal implant which regulates the skin color of marines. Problem is, the melanin in your skin is produced by cells in your skin to protect your skin from UV rays. It's not centrally controlled by a massive organ like the lore here is suggesting. They alos use this organ as a way of explaining the various skin tones differences between chapters. (eg: Blood angels are paler, and Salamanders are really dark skinned) The problem is the contradiction; if the organ somehow magically controls the skin pigmentation, then it should work for all chapters with this function in mind; meaning blood angels would turn dark immediately when exposed to sun. GW does the cop-out of "genetic mutation" here again. This is not how skin pigmentation works, plain and simple.
N) Oolitic Kidney: In effect a detoxification organ (more akin to liver) not really a kidney. That by itself could be acceptable, but it's said to also regulate the remaining organs and the circulatory system. This is too much work to cram on one organ: it both part of the Digestive, excretory, circulatory, endocrine, and nervous system. Aside from the nightmare of a job somebody would have to wire this thing to every other system either directly through nerves, or distally through hormones. Each time you create new hormones there are downstream effects, you have to look for a checks-and balances system with counter-regulatory hormones. In effect this creates an incredibly complicated organism, where the marine could simply wear a respirator. This also ignores the fact that once toxic gases like Sarin gas enter the body they are doing damage and right away, and by the time they reach this new organ for detox, the marine would be dead anyway.
O) Neuroglottis: Implant in the nasal cavity which somehow allows the marine to tell if food is poisonous or safe to eat. Also enhances his sense of smell. This one is actually acceptable. It begs the question: "What the hell are marines eating all the time that their bodies seem principally designed to reject poisons?" Fun fact; out tongues are designed to prevent us from eating spoiled food; the sour receptors are right at the tip of the tongue so that if you byte into a bacteria-ridden-spoiled carcass (which is very acidic as anyone who has been unfortunate enought to drink spoiled milk can attest) you feel it and spit it out before swallowing. Tis same principal can be amplified here. That's three GW!
P) Mucranoid: Total nonsense right here. Described as something implanted in the central nervous system that causes marines to secrete thick mucus like substance which allows them to survive in stasis/cold environments/vacuum of space. SO much wrong with this glands on the skin will not just secrete magical space goo because you stimulate the CNS. You would have to create a new type of gland, encode it into a type of cell already on the skin, somehow program cell to secrete a brand new type of substance (We assume it's protein based) and somehow you wire this to the nervous system. We are talking here about a massive manipulation of the genome with insertions of new cell types, proteins and neurologic pathways. This won't spontaneously develop if you just implant an organ. (That would be like transplanting a heart into somebody's abdomen and expecting it to somehow link up on it's own with the rest of the organs, create new blood vessels etc. In other words, it makes no sense)
Q) Betcher's Gland: Poison gland which spits corrosive acid which allows marine to disable enemies, and "helps with digestion of hard to digest food". OK.... Somebody was obsessed with Alien when he wrote this one. Problem here I hope is self evident; even if the acid is well stored in durable sacks, every time the marine spits the acid would burn the soft unprotected mucousa of his lips. If he ever gets the bright idea to use it on food he's eating it would literally dissolve his esophagus and stomach killing him. If this acid is strong enough to harm foes, it will certainly harm the food pipe which is in no way special or augmented to accommodate this acidity.
R) Progenoid Gland: Glands which grow chapter gene seed and are harvested to increase gene seed stock. The idea is good and very grimdark; in essence having your warriors serves as incubators and guardians of the genetic material necessary to create the chapter. I'm 100% behind this, it;s a pity the description had to be so riddled with scientific mumbo-jumbo. The organ is described as "looking for" gene seed cells from other organs and creating "germ cells" much like an ovary. Problem is, germ cells aren't necessary in asexual reproduction. They are only needed when sperm and egg cells have to meet and fuse to form a new zygote. The genetic combination of the gene seed is always identical and once assumes always has the full set of genetic material. This could have been better written as a type of "living cell culture", whereby marines are implanted with the progenoid gland already seeded with gene seed, and it being allowed time to naturally grow. This is how I ret-con it in my mind. Close but no cigar here.
S) Black Carapace: Some kind of interface material that wires marine directly to power armor. It could have been written better; even a direct cable that connects to the CNS or brain of the marine and plugs into the power armor would have been more eloquent. The idea of implanting a full carapace "under the skin" makes no sense as you would be in essence interrupting all blood/nerve supply to skin. This would cause skin to slough off. I want to give them this one but it makes no sense.
PRIMARIS ORGANS: (I had high hopes they would at least make the newer organs a bit more plausible but alas)
T) Sinew Coils: Metallic fibers around sinews said to give Primaris super strength and extra layer of protection. Again, basic lack of physiology knowledge; sinews don't take part in muscle contraction, they hold muscles anchored and ordered. If your sinews are made incredibly strong and capable of contracting they would cause tremendous muscle damage every time you over-extend. You will in fact tear your muscles apart (look up rhabdomyolysis) and the resulting spill of protein in the blood with cause irreparable kidney damage. It would make a lot more sense to simply have external armor plates.
U) Magnificat: This ia like Ossumodula but turned up to 11. Still won't work for same reason. IF humans simply got bigger and healthier as you gave them more and more growth hormone, we would be a nation of super healthy body-builders. There's huge side effects and early death is one.
V) Belisarian Furnace: An extreme backup gland that kicks the marine's hearts into gear with potent mix of hormones when they are close to death.This is the "stim-pack" the marine's body auto-applies. Problem is, how would the body know when to apply this? Surely it can't be triggered by first bout of adrenaline, heart rate or other vitals? It makes sense if the cogitator in the power armor recognized failing vitals and auto-administered a dose, but that's not the case. I'll still give it to them as it's not a violation of basic biology. That's four GW!
So here we are 5 of the 24 which are kind of plausible, and the remainder which make me laugh. Again, please don't take this seriously, this was an exercise of self-indulgence for me. Again, apologies if I sound conceded.
Sir Heckington wrote: Am I one of the few that like new crons? I love the ability to have 'your dudes' now, and that all the necrons are unique. I've always hated the idea of an 'unknown horror' like Oldcrons/Tyranids.
I think a combination of both makes for the best version. Necron lords who have gone completely insane from their consciousness being stuffed into a machine and then living for a couple millennia. Using technology we couldn't hope to understand. That makes an intimidating foe that stands out from the other races.
I like aspects of the new stuff, and while technically both interpretations can still exist, the emphasis on the newcron-esque flavor bugs me. And the loss of Pariahs.
The fact that Necrons got degraded also really bugs me. Base Warrior had a 3+ save, Flayed Ones had a 3+ save. Immortals had a T5 and were arguably some of the best infantry in the game during 3rd/4th.
You sir deserve an exalt for this dissection of the many, many problems of Space Marine anathomy, but I think you forgot the fused rib-cage which would prevent breathing and augment the chances of overheating and also make Space Marines stiff as feth which isn't that practical when you are supposed to fight. You need to be strong, but also supple to be a good fighter.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I'm sure I can think of something better, but for whatever reason could never accept (or take seriously) the Iron Hands battle motto "The Flesh is Weak!"
Seems like its just missing a point. The flesh is weak... but... But what? Is it the enemies flesh? Is it their own flesh? Is this some kind of sicko flaggelation fetish?
To answer your questions:
1) Yes, the enemy flesh is weak, because flesh is weak
2) Yes your own flesh is weak, because flesh is weak
in resumé metal and machines are strong, organic matter is weak, less pure and corruptible.
3) Yes, it's totally a sicko flaggelation fetish that first started by uncritical admiration of Ferrus Manus powers derived from his necrodermis arms and later fuelled to insanity fetishism after his death. The Iron Hands needed to be stronger and they were not because their flesh was weak. They needed to be closer to machines.
By Imperial standards, the Iron Hands are bit insane, but not all that much compared to others. A lot of Imperial faction have a sort of fetish fuelled obsession for pain, perfection, purity and/or vengeance. The entire Adpetus Mechanicus shares their's after all.
/joke
To be fair to the Iron Hands, their opinion on flesh and the benefits of mechanical augmentation are functionally identical to that of the Mechanicum. It's not exactly unique to the chapter.
At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)
Well written and interesting post but you sure as hell dont need a degree in science/medicine to pick apart the craziness of marine biology
Hive City Dweller wrote: Tons and tons of shoddy pseudo-scientific explanations. I get it's a fantasy setting and shouldn't be examined too closely for fidelity in that regard, but god I hate how everything is possible and easily explainable with: "oh, it's a genetic mutation". Humans which transform into giant werewolves? Genetic mutation! Chapter of space marines with dragon horns and scales for skin? Genetic mutation! Need to make a superhuman soldier who spits acid and has blood which can corrode steel but not his own blood vessels? Gene seed!
TRIGGER WARNING:
At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)
1) the GW explanation for why women can't be astartes. Everything I've read on this topic which explains women are genetically incompatible with and reject the primarch gene-seed is truly nonsensical. The whole "gene seed is encoded to male tissues etc." shows a profound lack of understanding of genetics and how the human body works. I think they would have been better off explaining the all male astartes as cultural/martial tradition and left it at that instead of making it a case of gender biological differences. In the real world there is no such thing as male specific tissues other than the genitals. Very little is encoded on the Y chromosome that isn't linked to reproduction and that part of the genome is inactive in all other tissues. Male and female tissues otherwise behave the same way and wouldn't reject gene-seed only because it came from the opposite sex. I think here we are slaves to making up a pseudo scientific explanation instead of them saying, "you know what? We only have male astartes, due to the strict militant fraternal traditions of Terra. It's not impossible to have female astartes, 'its just not done because the Imperium is backwards and stuck in traditions that are millennia old." This would be in my book a much more honest and acceptable explanation.
2) While we are on marine biology here's the kicker: Gene seed organs.
Total unnecessary nonsense in my mind as it really doesn't make astartes any better as soldiers. Let's take a look.
A) Secondary Heart: Supposedly implanted to help pump blood and as a backup in case the other heart fails. Problem is, if the first heart fails and these are on the same circuit, how the hell is the blood gonna pass by the original damaged heart? The valves only respond to pressure and contracture of the muscle and will not keep blood flowing through dead heart and therefore the dead heart will form a stop-cock in circulation and the marine will die anyway. Secondary heart can only work if parallel circuit of blood vessels is also implanted, but this is never mentioned. There's also a mechanical problem with two dissinchronized hearts beating together which may cause aberrant blood flow. It's a real mess; there's a reason mammals haven't evolved multiple hearts.
B) Ossmodula: Implantable device which causes secretion of special Growth Hormone to make human bones to grow fast and strong. Problem is, if you're supplying a hormone all it can do is cause the tissues you already have to respond in the natural way. The hormones activate natural receptors and even a "super hormone" which may have a really high affinity for and bind to the receptor can only do so much. We have a known diseases that affect this pathway. Presuming this is done in young kids it would cause gigantism, which while it would make them larger, it would also wreak havoc on multiple other systems and cause a lot of side effects, notably enlarging organs like the heart, meaning the marine may be prone to heart failure. The added nonsense about a diet of 'ceramic-based" minerals would not cause a stronger skeleton as the lore suggests, as we would have no way to obtain and incorporate said minerals, which are never actually individually named, because that isn't a function of growth hormone but of digestion. (This is roughly analogous to thinking that eating bits of rock will make your bones rock hard) The final bit here is about the rib cage becoming fused into one giant plate which would of course kill the marine as the only way we have of inflating a deflating our lungs other than a diaphragm is mostly reliant on the expansion of the rib cage. (This is why people buried up to their necks in mud die; they can't expant their lungs.)
C) Biscopea: Regulates the Ossomodula above, which is fair. However you're still stuck with all the problems of the Ossmodula.
D) Haemstamen: Supposedly alters blood chemistry to carry more oxygen. While this is fair and practical, we know oxygen carrying capacity of blood falls to hemoglobin. Certain conditions can cause this red-blood-cell-bound protein to hold on to oxygen more or less tightly. (This is referred to as the oxygen dissociation curve) There are risks and benefits to having your blood hold on to oxygen more tightly, most notably that if the hemoglobin holds on to more oxygen it doesn't like to let go of it when it finally gets to the tissues and results in less oxygen delivery to the tissues. This one is never explained so I am gonna let them have it as the idea is a good one and it makes sense, if they are describing some form of modified oxygen carrying protein or a new form of hemoglobin which both holds more oxygen and readily releases it at the target tissues. You get one GW.
E) Larraman's Organ: Essentially an organ that makes cells which enact a new type of blood clotting system. Supposedly the advantage is that the cells form instant clots of scar tissue in seconds and cause almost "instant cessation of bleeding". Well this is a terrible idea as any process in the body is counter-regulated by an opposite process so that it never "runs away". Let's say an astartes gets shot by enemy sniper through the torso. Bullet nicks a major blood vessel, at which point the marine starts bleeding internally. Problem is, this new blood-clotting system sees the damage and does immediate repair but the scar tissue is now blocking the blood vessel downstream. This means essentially you'll be clotting off the arm every time a blood vessel in the arm is hit, which will result in loss of that limb. This "repair" is physiologically worse for the marine than the blood loss that would have resulted had he simply kept his human clotting mechanism.
F) Catalepsan Node: Brain implant which shuts off sections of the brain off at a time so they can rest, allowing marine to stay up late. In theory it seems practical, but problem is that the brain sometimes needs to re synchronize altogether. I'm no neuroscientist but the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with. Because they were vague in their description, and because the brain is maybe the least understood of the body systems, and because they seem to be basing it on natural phenomena that appear in other animals I will let them have this one. You got two GW.
G) Preomnor: A section of the digestive tract before the stomach which breaks down toxins, and rejects materials that would kill that marine. This is good in theory but again shows lack of understanding of digestion. This is before the item eaten is digested by the body. A lot of foods have toxic metabolites; compounds that are only exposed once food has been chemically and mechanically digested. They would have been better off with a new type of liver (Which detoxifies the metabolites of food) It's also said that this organ analyzed food and decided whether to regurgitate or allow it to pass. This implies an autonomous Nervous system independent of the marine's, which means that if the marine eats something that is safe but the organ dislikes he will have no choice but to regurgitate it. In effect if this organ becomes confused (which may happen if marines are eating weird flora/fauna on campaign) it may starve the marine to death.
H) Omophage: An organ that allows marines to gain memories and info on species by eating their flesh. Total nonsense, as memories are not stored in "flesh" but instead in the brain matter of animals. They are not encoded on DNA as GW seems to think, at least not specific memories that can be replayed back like a holo-tape. Even if marines ate the enemy's "brain matter" he'd have no way of accessing and re-assembling a memory from tissue. This may be the worst one of the bunch.
I) Multi-Lung: An extra lung to allow for more breathing. Again, in a confined space of the rib cage you can only have so much stuff. Cramming a third lung into it will not make breathing more efficient, it will decrease the expansion of the primary lung. Not to mention you also have to fit in extra blood vessels going to it from the heart, making a whole lot more tissue necessary. It's also not a good idea as a backup as any insult that penetrates the chest cavity and pops one lung won't have any trouble popping the backup in the same instant.
J) Occulobe: Some kind of obscure neuro-implant which provides hormones and "genetic stimuli" to eyes which makes manipulation of the marine's eyes easier by apothecaries. Allegedly this allows superhuman acuity of sight and seeing in low-light conditions. I'm not qualified to comment on this one but it sounds shoddy as there are no specifics mentioned here. It basically says "some space magic happens here and the marine can see better". There are very few hormonal processes which would cause vision changes, and all of them are pathological, which makes this one very poorly laid out indeed.
K) Lyman's Ear: A mechanica inner ear which makes the marine immune to dizziness. (Remember spinning around in place and stopping and watching the room start to spin?) It also gives them improved hearing. An excellent and practical idea! Question is, why is it only on one side? If only one ear is replaced the marine will still experience the sensation of movement with speed on the other side, but this time it will be worse, because one ear will feel the spin and the other will not. This may lead to "vertigo" or the sensation of the room spinning with every head movement. This is debilitating to the marine. (There's a reason we have TWO inner ears)
L) Sus-an Membrane: A mysterious membrane that wraps the brain and allows gravelly wounded marines to self induce a coma until they recover. This one is practical, the only question is; why does the marine have to undergo major head surgery to achieve something that can be achieved with medication? We can induce medical comas all the time for specifically this reason. This function could be much better served by an automatic drug infusion from the marine's armor right into the blood stream. There's no physiologic reason why one has to have their brain operated on. The other stated purpose of this organ is to "keep the marine's brain alive even with grave wounds." That's not how brain work. If you're bleeding out on the battle field, the only way your brain can survive is to have fresh oxygen rich blood supplied to it. The moment the marine belled out, he will pass out and the brain will die unless necessitated quickly. (Lack of blood flow to brain is what strokes are)
M) Melanochrome: This is said to be a hormonal implant which regulates the skin color of marines. Problem is, the melanin in your skin is produced by cells in your skin to protect your skin from UV rays. It's not centrally controlled by a massive organ like the lore here is suggesting. They alos use this organ as a way of explaining the various skin tones differences between chapters. (eg: Blood angels are paler, and Salamanders are really dark skinned) The problem is the contradiction; if the organ somehow magically controls the skin pigmentation, then it should work for all chapters with this function in mind; meaning blood angels would turn dark immediately when exposed to sun. GW does the cop-out of "genetic mutation" here again. This is not how skin pigmentation works, plain and simple.
N) Oolitic Kidney: In effect a detoxification organ (more akin to liver) not really a kidney. That by itself could be acceptable, but it's said to also regulate the remaining organs and the circulatory system. This is too much work to cram on one organ: it both part of the Digestive, excretory, circulatory, endocrine, and nervous system. Aside from the nightmare of a job somebody would have to wire this thing to every other system either directly through nerves, or distally through hormones. Each time you create new hormones there are downstream effects, you have to look for a checks-and balances system with counter-regulatory hormones. In effect this creates an incredibly complicated organism, where the marine could simply wear a respirator. This also ignores the fact that once toxic gases like Sarin gas enter the body they are doing damage and right away, and by the time they reach this new organ for detox, the marine would be dead anyway.
O) Neuroglottis: Implant in the nasal cavity which somehow allows the marine to tell if food is poisonous or safe to eat. Also enhances his sense of smell. This one is actually acceptable. It begs the question: "What the hell are marines eating all the time that their bodies seem principally designed to reject poisons?" Fun fact; out tongues are designed to prevent us from eating spoiled food; the sour receptors are right at the tip of the tongue so that if you byte into a bacteria-ridden-spoiled carcass (which is very acidic as anyone who has been unfortunate enought to drink spoiled milk can attest) you feel it and spit it out before swallowing. Tis same principal can be amplified here. That's three GW!
P) Mucranoid: Total nonsense right here. Described as something implanted in the central nervous system that causes marines to secrete thick mucus like substance which allows them to survive in stasis/cold environments/vacuum of space. SO much wrong with this glands on the skin will not just secrete magical space goo because you stimulate the CNS. You would have to create a new type of gland, encode it into a type of cell already on the skin, somehow program cell to secrete a brand new type of substance (We assume it's protein based) and somehow you wire this to the nervous system. We are talking here about a massive manipulation of the genome with insertions of new cell types, proteins and neurologic pathways. This won't spontaneously develop if you just implant an organ. (That would be like transplanting a heart into somebody's abdomen and expecting it to somehow link up on it's own with the rest of the organs, create new blood vessels etc. In other words, it makes no sense)
Q) Betcher's Gland: Poison gland which spits corrosive acid which allows marine to disable enemies, and "helps with digestion of hard to digest food". OK.... Somebody was obsessed with Alien when he wrote this one. Problem here I hope is self evident; even if the acid is well stored in durable sacks, every time the marine spits the acid would burn the soft unprotected mucousa of his lips. If he ever gets the bright idea to use it on food he's eating it would literally dissolve his esophagus and stomach killing him. If this acid is strong enough to harm foes, it will certainly harm the food pipe which is in no way special or augmented to accommodate this acidity.
R) Progenoid Gland: Glands which grow chapter gene seed and are harvested to increase gene seed stock. The idea is good and very grimdark; in essence having your warriors serves as incubators and guardians of the genetic material necessary to create the chapter. I'm 100% behind this, it;s a pity the description had to be so riddled with scientific mumbo-jumbo. The organ is described as "looking for" gene seed cells from other organs and creating "germ cells" much like an ovary. Problem is, germ cells aren't necessary in asexual reproduction. They are only needed when sperm and egg cells have to meet and fuse to form a new zygote. The genetic combination of the gene seed is always identical and once assumes always has the full set of genetic material. This could have been better written as a type of "living cell culture", whereby marines are implanted with the progenoid gland already seeded with gene seed, and it being allowed time to naturally grow. This is how I ret-con it in my mind. Close but no cigar here.
S) Black Carapace: Some kind of interface material that wires marine directly to power armor. It could have been written better; even a direct cable that connects to the CNS or brain of the marine and plugs into the power armor would have been more eloquent. The idea of implanting a full carapace "under the skin" makes no sense as you would be in essence interrupting all blood/nerve supply to skin. This would cause skin to slough off. I want to give them this one but it makes no sense.
PRIMARIS ORGANS: (I had high hopes they would at least make the newer organs a bit more plausible but alas)
T) Sinew Coils: Metallic fibers around sinews said to give Primaris super strength and extra layer of protection. Again, basic lack of physiology knowledge; sinews don't take part in muscle contraction, they hold muscles anchored and ordered. If your sinews are made incredibly strong and capable of contracting they would cause tremendous muscle damage every time you over-extend. You will in fact tear your muscles apart (look up rhabdomyolysis) and the resulting spill of protein in the blood with cause irreparable kidney damage. It would make a lot more sense to simply have external armor plates.
U) Magnificat: This ia like Ossumodula but turned up to 11. Still won't work for same reason. IF humans simply got bigger and healthier as you gave them more and more growth hormone, we would be a nation of super healthy body-builders. There's huge side effects and early death is one.
V) Belisarian Furnace: An extreme backup gland that kicks the marine's hearts into gear with potent mix of hormones when they are close to death.This is the "stim-pack" the marine's body auto-applies. Problem is, how would the body know when to apply this? Surely it can't be triggered by first bout of adrenaline, heart rate or other vitals? It makes sense if the cogitator in the power armor recognized failing vitals and auto-administered a dose, but that's not the case. I'll still give it to them as it's not a violation of basic biology. That's four GW!
So here we are 5 of the 24 which are kind of plausible, and the remainder which make me laugh. Again, please don't take this seriously, this was an exercise of self-indulgence for me. Again, apologies if I sound conceded.
haha this is awesome. except for the fact that youve totally ruined space marines for me now. and also, now I'm waiting for similar responses that I got when I pointed out the flaws in machine spirits inside pieces of equipment that are essentially mechanical parts and electrical systems.
I have to say, all of the time I have spent on this forum over the years, that's probably one of the most interesting things I have ever read. Bravo, sir!
Hive City Dweller wrote: 1) the GW explanation for why women can't be astartes. Everything I've read on this topic which explains women are genetically incompatible with and reject the primarch gene-seed is truly nonsensical. The whole "gene seed is encoded to male tissues etc." shows a profound lack of understanding of genetics and how the human body works. I think they would have been better off explaining the all male astartes as cultural/martial tradition and left it at that instead of making it a case of gender biological differences. In the real world there is no such thing as male specific tissues other than the genitals. Very little is encoded on the Y chromosome that isn't linked to reproduction and that part of the genome is inactive in all other tissues. Male and female tissues otherwise behave the same way and wouldn't reject gene-seed only because it came from the opposite sex. I think here we are slaves to making up a pseudo scientific explanation instead of them saying, "you know what? We only have male astartes, due to the strict militant fraternal traditions of Terra. It's not impossible to have female astartes, 'its just not done because the Imperium is backwards and stuck in traditions that are millennia old." This would be in my book a much more honest and acceptable explanation.
I just wanted to point out that there is a very specific reason that female astartes are "scientifically impossible" in the setting. The creators of the setting (and most of the community) wanted male-only space marines. "Because it is tradition" even if it is acknowledged as outdated in setting is not an acceptable reason... people would jump all over that and claim that it was glorifying misogyny and that it should be retconned. Stating that gene seed implantation is impossible on females and giving some sort of crap pseudoscience to back that up is an effective way to short-circuit that argument. See? We didn't make marines all men because we are sexist it is because it is impossible in-universe because XYZ.
Personally, I think that making marines all men is about as sexist as making sororitas all women (hint: it isn't). But people like to freak out about that kind of thing and take it way too seriously. Creators should have the freedom to design settings however they wish and not have to face social pressures to "change" things to suit other people's sensibilities. Don't like it? Don't play/watch/consume it.
I've spoken before about my strong sense of suspension of disbelief in other threads. Sure as hell I have put 40k novels down and just stopped reading if I have run across something that has made me say "lol no".
I think they couldve made SM more plausible if the explanation was more along the lines of enhancing them with chemically perfected combinations of steroids and hormones, rather than all the surgeries and extra made up organs you mentioned
Well, it was written in the 80s by someone who was certainly not a biologist. I think a faulty explanation, especially by today's standards, was to be expected.
The point still stands though - women cannot be space marines. Besides, you have sisters of battle. Way more interesting than marines. I mean, they are pure humans who have so much resolve that they get pseudo magical protection. That's pretty neat.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Tons and tons of shoddy pseudo-scientific explanations. I get it's a fantasy setting and shouldn't be examined too closely for fidelity in that regard, but god I hate how everything is possible and easily explainable with: "oh, it's a genetic mutation". Humans which transform into giant werewolves? Genetic mutation! Chapter of space marines with dragon horns and scales for skin? Genetic mutation! Need to make a superhuman soldier who spits acid and has blood which can corrode steel but not his own blood vessels? Gene seed!
TRIGGER WARNING:
At the risk of sounding conceded, I work in the medical field with specialties in genetics and endocrine regulation. (Ie hormones, growth etc) and the "sciences" being described to write away fantastic biology always makes me laugh/roll my eyes. (I do get it's written by literary authors for children so I don't take it to heart, but it is the silliest aspect of 40K)
That's the sort of thing I was mentioning above. That's why I prefer it if they just say what the enhancements are, and not the "mechanics" of how they work. If they just say "this organ keeps the Marine's blood flowing for a short while if his heart stops beating" and left it at that, then we can come up with whatever explanation is most plausible (or least implausible).
I think to placate the whole equal opportunities crowd they should just make the sob/SM equivalents, in that they take the children at whatever age, and they split into the relevant branches for training and enhancement.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I think to placate the whole equal opportunities crowd they should just make the sob/SM equivalents, in that they take the children at whatever age, and they split into the relevant branches for training and enhancement.
That system already exists, iirc. The male equivalent are storm troopers. Both they and the sisters are from the Schola, if I understand correctly. There are already plenty of equal opportunities.
I'd honestly prefer it if there was no scientific reason that women couldn't be Astartes and instead it was just a product of the Emperor being a misogynist looking specifically for masculine traits in his Space Marines. It fits the setting, it fits my #chaosbias by making the Emperor even more of a bastard, and brings up a delicious irony in that the rest of the Imperium doesn't actually agree with his views on that subject given that every branch that wasn't hand-crafted by the Emperor himself is equally open/oppressive to both men and women.
Misogynist would imply that he actively hates women. I don't think that's right, there's nothing that hints at that. Remember that he formed the Sisters of Silence, who are all women. If he were a misogynist, he would not have done that.
Narcissist Empy thought he was so great that the only way humanity could progress is if he made more of himself, hence the Primarch / marines project. That's something he did do.
The latter makes more sense to me, given all the data we have.
You sir deserve an exalt for this dissection of the many, many problems of Space Marine anathomy, but I think you forgot the fused rib-cage which would prevent breathing and augment the chances of overheating and also make Space Marines stiff as feth which isn't that practical when you are supposed to fight. You need to be strong, but also supple to be a good fighter.
More than anything else this post illustrates the problems faced when you add more detail than is necessary.
In terms of the Emperor's 'No Girls Allowed' rule, that's based on the assumption that the 20 Primarchs were the final product.
And we don't know that for sure.
If we stop and think about it, there's anecdotal evidence to suggest they weren't. Instead, they were just the culmination of his current knowledge.
Consider the Thunder Warriors. They were crude, but effective. Certainly effective enough to handily overcome all earthbound resistance to Unification.
Mr Emperor Sir (or Doris, to his friends) then toddles off to work on the Primarch Project. Now we know that went wrong. We absolutely know that. They were cradle snatched.
Mr Emperor Sir (or Doris, to his friends) then creates the Astartes as what I understand to be a salvage project. A measure to ensure the Primarch Project wasn't a dead loss.
Now, that raises various questions around the common assumption.
First, why would he ever stop at 20 Primarchs? Seriously. Why would you? Where's the sense in that.
I suspect that had they not been God Napped, they were just the first batch. Perhaps simply a trial run - an experimental batch to see how that process turns out. One which he was open to tweaking and improving in the future.
Second. How much of his efforts were constrained by time? We know the Primarchs (or at least, we're told) were derived from his own genetic structure. If that is indeed true, making them all male was simply a matter of expedience. Less work to be done with chromosomal shift and that (look, I'm not a biologist, so excuse the shonky language).
Third. Reconquering the Galaxy is no small task. Particularly when even Mr Emperor Sir (or Doris, to his friends) has precious little idea of what's actually out there, waiting in the dark. So why restrict your genetic super soldier to a mere half of the population by design? Where's the sense in that? That's a gross waste of resources, and one not reflected in any of the other military wings of The Imperium, barring the much smaller Sisters of Silence (and I've my own theory on that one. It involves cloning.) So why the Primarchs and Astartes by design?
Remember, the Great Crusade was launched once the Warp Storms abated, and the Age of Strife ended. Now, being psychically potent, it's a reasonable assumption to say the Emperor had some sense that it was coming - even if he couldn't pin point exactly when. All he knew for sure is that the clock was ticking, and he had to be good to go the second it broke.
In short, The Emperor was making the best of a bad situation, and was ultimately unable to return to his Lab as events overtook him.
Had he retained all 20 Primarchs from the beginning, who knows what might've happened? Being able to raise them from birth/maturation, would he have seen the flaws that were later to cause so much trouble, or were they purely the result of their scattering? If the former, would he have reworked stuff, having put the flawed ones down?
I suspect yes. We know he's utterly ruthless. And I don't think he'd accept flawed Primarchs unless he had absolutely no other choice. Perhaps all 20 would've been subtly bumped off as he prepared the next, theoretically improved batch. Perhaps some (Horus, Guilliman and Dorn spring to mind) would've been up to snuff, and survived.
Regardless, I find it hard to accept that given better times, The Primarchs were ever intended as The Emperor's 'sixth day' creations.
Just had another pondering about it. Had he retained all 20 Primarchs, would The Emperor ever have needed to join The Great Crusade himself? We know he was instrumental in bringing Mars into the fold, and then went off looking for his missing 'Sons'. That's possibly because he felt he was the only being such masterworks would recognise as their true leader. If all 20 had lead their exploratory fleets, and their Legions, from the get-go, would The Emperor ever have had to leave Terra? I mean, we're talking a potential 200 years back on earth, in his Labs doing what he needs to do. If he turned out satisfied with the original 20, perhaps he'd have made more, maybe aiming for female versions to take advantage of the remaining 50% of possible stock. Maybe he'd figure it was a good enough job, and the WebWay issue was more pressing.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I think to placate the whole equal opportunities crowd they should just make the sob/SM equivalents, in that they take the children at whatever age, and they split into the relevant branches for training and enhancement.
Honestly I think the best way to introduce female marines would be just retconning it so they've always been a thing. There's not really a decent reason for the Imperium to make them all of a sudden so they may as well just have always been.
I think what I most dislike about the "Lore" is how it is so incredibly lacking in the "everyday citizen" of how society holds together in general.
Orks have their structure and everyday life better explained.
Hive life has a touch more to it but again only in very "faction specific" information.
You could say the number of planets and cultures out there could be "anything".
But I suspect the "Imperium of Man" will shove certain methods of doing things down their throats since everything to do with them does that.
- Prescribed militia and duties.
- Citizen registration vs "unregistered".
- "Guilds" and official rights and duties.
- Warzone protocol of what citizens are to do upon invasion or raids.
- We have the "Adeptus Arbites" what are their duties during wartime/raids.
- Something as simple as "common transports" (Getting a bit tired of empty streets to play in).
- They all cannot possibly walk to work... Public transportation.
- Planetary defense force, structure (there is some detail on this) how it operates with supporting troops that "drop-in" AM/SM/Mech. ...
Every bit of these questions are to go toward when we have our 40k scrap in a city, any of the above can add some colour to it all.
Hab-blocks could be a form of hazardous terrain if there is a lockdown and some kind of weaponization.
Random encounters of militia or gangs to help protect their "turf".
They are truly "faceless masses" and not a feth is given of what exactly is worth fighting for.... definitely not for these characterless beings.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I think to placate the whole equal opportunities crowd they should just make the sob/SM equivalents, in that they take the children at whatever age, and they split into the relevant branches for training and enhancement.
That system already exists, iirc. The male equivalent are storm troopers. Both they and the sisters are from the Schola, if I understand correctly.
There are already plenty of equal opportunities.
Technically, Scions can be men or women just like Commissars. These two are male dominated because Sisters do recruit from the same pool and have priority. Sisters are exclusively female as GW decided to make them the female counterpart of Space Marines, but of course, being a product of the early 90's, they were to have a support role to the protagonist role of the Space Marine and thus significantly weaker. In the same fashion, Custodes are basically turbo-marines and Sister of Silence super-sisters. The Imperium various faction are pretty much all alongst the line an action melodrama. Space Marines are the hunky hero, Sisters are his chick that needs saving and helos out once in a while, guards are the mooks that gets killed or are in the way for the most part, the Inquisition is the sly bastard that gives the hero his mission and frequently bs them, the Mechanicus is the weird dude who knows mechanic or computers introduced at half the movie to solve some issues that's also sometime a traitor. Yes, its sexist and slightly anti-intellectual, but it was, and still is, a very common formula.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I think they couldve made SM more plausible if the explanation was more along the lines of enhancing them with chemically perfected combinations of steroids and hormones, rather than all the surgeries and extra made up organs you mentioned
Funnily enough this is closer to the definition of Marines in their original conception (Rogue Trader-era). I think the exact term was 'chemically hardened', but I htink it was pretty much meant to be as you describe.
Towards end of 1st edition the Compilation (or was it Compendium? Always forget which is which) marines were changed to T4, and the whole extra organs & gubbins element was added.
Sisters are exclusively female as GW decided to make them the female counterpart of Space Marines, but of course, being a product of the early 90's, they were to have a support role to the protagonist role of the Space Marine and thus significantly weaker
Fairly early fluff for the Sisters of Battle had them described as the match of Space Marines in combat and if I recall correctly the go-to for taking down rogue Chapters (as other Chapters might have conflicting loyalties).
Aside from high heels in the artwork (pet peeve) they were arguably portrayed as much more competent than in current fluff.
Sisters are exclusively female as GW decided to make them the female counterpart of Space Marines, but of course, being a product of the early 90's, they were to have a support role to the protagonist role of the Space Marine and thus significantly weaker
Fairly early fluff for the Sisters of Battle had them described as the match of Space Marines in combat and if I recall correctly the go-to for taking down rogue Chapters (as other Chapters might have conflicting loyalties).
Aside from high heels in the artwork (pet peeve) they were arguably portrayed as much more competent than in current fluff.
As mentionned earlier as one of my biggest pet-peeve, there indeed was a Marine power creep in the fluff where they got progressively a lot more powerful then they used to be. Most of the Sister's fluff is a bit strange because of that. They were enven described as capable of defeating Chaos Space Marines while being outnumbered (well Celestians were supposed to be capable to do that). Hell, once upon a time Cadians were supposed to held in check the forces of Chaos. That means tens of thousand Chaos Marines and Cadia isn't even a massive hive world there isn't even a billion person on the entire planet.
Sisters are exclusively female as GW decided to make them the female counterpart of Space Marines, but of course, being a product of the early 90's, they were to have a support role to the protagonist role of the Space Marine and thus significantly weaker
Fairly early fluff for the Sisters of Battle had them described as the match of Space Marines in combat and if I recall correctly the go-to for taking down rogue Chapters (as other Chapters might have conflicting loyalties).
Aside from high heels in the artwork (pet peeve) they were arguably portrayed as much more competent than in current fluff.
As mentionned earlier as one of my biggest pet-peeve, there indeed was a Marine power creep in the fluff where they got progressively a lot more powerful then they used to be. Most of the Sister's fluff is a bit strange because of that. They were enven described as capable of defeating Chaos Space Marines while being outnumbered (well Celestians were supposed to be capable to do that).
Sisters are exclusively female as GW decided to make them the female counterpart of Space Marines, but of course, being a product of the early 90's, they were to have a support role to the protagonist role of the Space Marine and thus significantly weaker
Fairly early fluff for the Sisters of Battle had them described as the match of Space Marines in combat and if I recall correctly the go-to for taking down rogue Chapters (as other Chapters might have conflicting loyalties).
Aside from high heels in the artwork (pet peeve) they were arguably portrayed as much more competent than in current fluff.
As mentionned earlier as one of my biggest pet-peeve, there indeed was a Marine power creep in the fluff where they got progressively a lot more powerful then they used to be. Most of the Sister's fluff is a bit strange because of that. They were enven described as capable of defeating Chaos Space Marines while being outnumbered (well Celestians were supposed to be capable to do that). Hell, once upon a time Cadians were supposed to held in check the forces of Chaos. That means tens of thousand Chaos Marines and Cadia isn't even a massive hive world there isn't even a billion person on the entire planet.
Isn't that because Sisters literally have plot armour via divine intervention?
I hope sisters get a lot of love when they get new models and a proper codex. They are really under represented despite that they are a far more common presence on a given Imperial world compared to a space marine.
epronovost wrote: Technically, Scions can be men or women just like Commissars. These two are male dominated because Sisters do recruit from the same pool and have priority. Sisters are exclusively female as GW decided to make them the female counterpart of Space Marines, but of course, being a product of the early 90's, they were to have a support role to the protagonist role of the Space Marine and thus significantly weaker. In the same fashion, Custodes are basically turbo-marines and Sister of Silence super-sisters. The Imperium various faction are pretty much all alongst the line an action melodrama. Space Marines are the hunky hero, Sisters are his chick that needs saving and helos out once in a while, guards are the mooks that gets killed or are in the way for the most part, the Inquisition is the sly bastard that gives the hero his mission and frequently bs them, the Mechanicus is the weird dude who knows mechanic or computers introduced at half the movie to solve some issues that's also sometime a traitor. Yes, its sexist and slightly anti-intellectual, but it was, and still is, a very common formula.
I think 40k came from a very simple place like that but it has evolved into something more nuanced over time.
Some of the more recent novel series paint the guard in a pretty competent light, showing that the Space Marines are only good for Drop Podding in and applying overwhelming force to a small area and pretty much nothing else. There have been stories where a guard detachment have come into conflict with a Space Marine chapter and the inquisition sided with the guard. Then there was the whole badab war incident where a large number of space marine chapters got rebuked terribly for trying to assist the astral claws in building their own pocket empire. Space Marines (even loyalist Space marines) are not always the good guys of the setting.
There hasn't been good sisters lore in a while though as far as I know . They are portrayed pretty badly in almost everything I have ever read about them.
Andersp90 wrote: That lance strikes from orbit is rarely a thing.
Why engage a horde of orkes when you can just lance them from space?
Some of the more recent novel series paint the guard in a pretty competent light, showing that the Space Marines are only good for Drop Podding in and applying overwhelming force to a small area and pretty much nothing else.
Oh, and this.
The fact that the SM are ment to be transhumans super soldiers, yet in every BL novel they are easily overwhelmed by a few orks, sharp sticks etc...
Andersp90 wrote: That lance strikes from orbit is rarely a thing.
Why engage a horde of orkes when you can just lance them from space?
Because there's an ork warship on your ass or you don't want collateral damage?
There's plenty of reasons why orbital bombardment isn't always viable.
You mean because the game would become about laying down pie-plates which kill all on a 2+ ?
Oh, wait...
Yes, that was basically 7th ed. It was stupid.
8th ed solved it by removing templates.
Which I kind of miss, but I also understand because trying to determine how many are under the template was a real pain.
Andersp90 wrote: That lance strikes from orbit is rarely a thing.
Why engage a horde of orkes when you can just lance them from space?
Because there's an ork warship on your ass or you don't want collateral damage?
There's plenty of reasons why orbital bombardment isn't always viable.
Ofc.
But often it is viable, yet not utilized.
The Purging of Kadillus is a good example.
Spoiler:
The BA make use of an orbital bombardment to blow up an ork warpportal. Yet, when they have ghazghkull cornered in a large building complex, they dont even consider lancing the fuc***. So - ofc - he gets away
Andersp90 wrote: That lance strikes from orbit is rarely a thing.
Why engage a horde of orkes when you can just lance them from space?
Planetary damage.
What is the point of fighting for a planet if the planet has no infrastructure afterwards?
A lancestrike is not world ending. It might level everything within 300-500m of the impact. But that is probably a fair trade if it kills the enemy warboss, necron overlord, hive tyrant etc.
Andersp90 wrote: It takes what, 15-20 years to train a new sm? How the hell are they keeping up with their losses?
It takes about three years to transform a kid into a Scout Space Marines and about three more years for a Scout to become a fully trained Space Marine. If each Chapter has about 2 or 3 hundred Scouts in training at any given point and about twice more recruits ongoing the process of becoming a Space Marines, they should be capable of recovering relatively fast their losses. Also, Space Marine are very hard to kill. While a few shots in the chest, a busted leg or arm might prevent them from fighting in a specific engagement, they will survive such wounds and return to the battlefield fairly fast.
Andersp90 wrote: It takes what, 15-20 years to train a new sm? How the hell are they keeping up with their losses?
It takes about three years to transform a kid into a Scout Space Marines and about three more years for a Scout to become a fully trained Space Marine. If each Chapter has about 2 or 3 hundred Scouts in training at any given point and about twice more recruits ongoing the process of becoming a Space Marines, they should be capable of recovering relatively fast their losses.
It was a rhetorical question.
The scouts make up the 10th company and are rarely more than a 100 strong.
Yes, after 6-10 years of training you become a brother . Then you are assigned to a devastator squad to master long-ranged weaponry and after that to an assault squad to master close-quarters combat. And ONLY then can they join a "normal" tactical squad as a full battle-brother. Like i said, decades pr SM.
Chapters that have been down to a few hundred marines (like the ultra marines and blood angels) may take upwards of a hundred years to fully recover.
Also, Space Marine are very hard to kill. While a few shots in the chest, a busted leg or arm might prevent them from fighting in a specific engagement, they will survive such wounds and return to the battlefield fairly fast.
Yea, but when a novel lists half the company or squad as dead, it's probably because they are, well, dead?
Its almost as if the writers keep forgetting that marines are only in chapters of 1000, and have the need to kill off a bunch of them to show that the enemy is srs bizniz.
Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
Andersp90 wrote: It takes what, 15-20 years to train a new sm? How the hell are they keeping up with their losses?
It takes about three years to transform a kid into a Scout Space Marines and about three more years for a Scout to become a fully trained Space Marine. If each Chapter has about 2 or 3 hundred Scouts in training at any given point and about twice more recruits ongoing the process of becoming a Space Marines, they should be capable of recovering relatively fast their losses.
The scouts make up the 10th company and are rarely more than a 100 strong.
Yes, after 6-10 years of training you become a brother . Then you are assigned to a devastator squad to master long-ranged weaponry and after that to an assault squad to master close-quarters combat. And ONLY then can they join a "normal" tactical squad as a full battle-brother. Like i said, decades pr SM.
Chapters that have been down to a few hundred marines (like the ultra marines and blood angels) may take upwards of a hundred years to fully recover.
Also, Space Marine are very hard to kill. While a few shots in the chest, a busted leg or arm might prevent them from fighting in a specific engagement, they will survive such wounds and return to the battlefield fairly fast.
Yea, but when a novel lists half the company or squad as dead, it's probably because they are, well, dead?
Almost every source for space marine structure notes that the 100 marine limit is not applied to 10th company and it can be as large as a chapter needs. Most chapters probably have a lot of scouts.
I dont like how litteral machine spirits are now. I also dont like the amount of ritual involved with mechanicus and their technology. All the prayer and incence is a turn off, Especially because that it actually seems to work.
But in reply to more recent comments, Space Marines being only male makes tons of sense. Its not just a technological restriction in my mind, because why would you want your space marines to be female anyway? Its not restricting half the population, as we know how small the amount of marines are compared to humans .Either way Space Marines would be extremley rare. Males are also stronger than females, with larger muscle growth, more endurance, etc... Space Marines only recruit the best of the best, and more often than not those will be males. All the implants used in the creation of marines would benefit males much more than females. Think of a male bodybuilder and a female body builder. Or top male athletes compared to female athletes. Its not sexist to say that men are physically more capable than women, because it is fact. So with that in mind, why would you want to potentially weaken your stock with female astartes? Even if the process was compatible with them, why would you waste all the time and resources on recruits who's bodies and minds (due to less testosterone and such) are less capable of dealing with the horrors of war in the 41st millenium?
Primaris and most of the new fluff, GW have thrown a gak show spanner in the lore.
I hate the SW-DA feud, its actually good lore but I can't stand the biased bickering from the collectors of each legion. Its so bad that people can't even concede to obvious facts. Like the fact that the Lion and Russ were equally matched until the suckerpunch, so much so that the Lion kept pestering Russ for a re-match, thats kinda a win for both sides but it still isn't enough some people Don't know what it is because IF and IW are supposed to have the most extreme feud. I mean I am biased, I'm no better but I can always concede facts and my Legion/Primarchs failings. No Primarch or legion are without failings, even the Ultramarines, which previously were just complete GW apple polishers, I like the new HH lore that shows Guilliman to have many failings.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its almost as if the writers keep forgetting that marines are only in chapters of 1000, and have the need to kill off a bunch of them to show that the enemy is srs bizniz.
I think that is the main problem - they dont think.
Grimskul wrote: Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
I totally agree, though I think the key word here is "elite".
Your average SM is a transhuman supersoldier in power armor who has spend 20-30 years doing nothing but wage war. They should absolutely curb stomp any opponent. Buuuuut they rarely do so in the novels.
Andersp90 wrote: It takes what, 15-20 years to train a new sm? How the hell are they keeping up with their losses?
It takes about three years to transform a kid into a Scout Space Marines and about three more years for a Scout to become a fully trained Space Marine. If each Chapter has about 2 or 3 hundred Scouts in training at any given point and about twice more recruits ongoing the process of becoming a Space Marines, they should be capable of recovering relatively fast their losses.
The scouts make up the 10th company and are rarely more than a 100 strong.
Yes, after 6-10 years of training you become a brother . Then you are assigned to a devastator squad to master long-ranged weaponry and after that to an assault squad to master close-quarters combat. And ONLY then can they join a "normal" tactical squad as a full battle-brother. Like i said, decades pr SM.
Chapters that have been down to a few hundred marines (like the ultra marines and blood angels) may take upwards of a hundred years to fully recover.
Also, Space Marine are very hard to kill. While a few shots in the chest, a busted leg or arm might prevent them from fighting in a specific engagement, they will survive such wounds and return to the battlefield fairly fast.
Yea, but when a novel lists half the company or squad as dead, it's probably because they are, well, dead?
Almost every source for space marine structure notes that the 100 marine limit is not applied to 10th company and it can be as large as a chapter needs. Most chapters probably have a lot of scouts.
I know quoting wiki is almost heresy, and I am only doing it because i am 99% sure I read the same statement in one of the sm dexes (possibly 5th edition).
"The Codex Astartes places no limit on the number of Scout squads that may comprise the 10th Company, although in practice few Chapters will ever have more than 10 squads at any one time. Most will have significantly fewer, depending on the suitability of aspirants and the Chapter's casualty levels."
I've long ago accepted GW writers, for the most part, have no sense of scale. Though to some degree that makes sense, as humans in general are not good with numbers and the scale that 40k is at is beyond anything anyone has had to process in real life.
As for Marine recruiting I'd imagine that there is endless turn over, and a lot of chapters are in constant flux. It's a big universe and exact casualties would be impossible to track in real time. I'd imagine that many chapters are probably over the 1000 limit if they were to magically gather in one place but that's not realistic so lets say the third company is sent out to go fight. When they get back a few months or years later there are a bunch of new recruits from the reserve companies getting promotions and a ton of scouts ready to join those companies.
Andersp90 wrote: Your average SM is a transhuman supersoldier in power armor who has spend 20-30 years doing nothing but wage war. They should absolutely curb stomp any opponent. Buuuuut they rarely do so in the novels. :facepalm
That's because all their enemies are exactly like that too. An Eldar is superhuman psychic being built for war. An Aspect Warrior will have decades if not century of obsessively training in a single domain. An Ork is a superhuman being built for war who live a life of violence and constant warfare against each other or other races from day one up until the time they die which might be centuries. Tau Fire Warriors are born and raised to be warriors and are descendant of a long eugenic program to make them more efficient in combat. They come from a civilisation more advanced than humanity too. Tyranid warriors are specifically built to eat galaxies. Necrons warriors and Immortals are eons old machine of living metal whose only function is war armed with disintagration guns and transdimentional blades. Space Marines aren't that special compared to these.
Hell, even if you compare them to elite humans they aren't all that exceptional. Scions are trained from early infancy in the most murderous and intense military academy possibly imagineable and armed with laser guns so powerful they can largely ignore a Space Marine armor while theirs protect them descently against their standard weapon. Sisters of Battle are trained in the same academies, but are in addition religious zealots of a god of war like no other and with pretty much the same stuff than Marines. Cadians, Catashans and plenty of other famous guardsmen have been also trained from early infancy to be nothing but soldiers.
Yes, Space Marines can curb stomp all none insanely trained superhuman opponents, but that's basically nobody amongst the big players in the setting. Plus, all elite humans have pretty much been equipped and trained to give them a hard time.
Andersp90 wrote: Your average SM is a transhuman supersoldier in power armor who has spend 20-30 years doing nothing but wage war. They should absolutely curb stomp any opponent. Buuuuut they rarely do so in the novels. :facepalm
That's because all their enemies are exactly like that too. An Eldar is superhuman psychic being built for war. An Aspect Warrior will have decades if not century of obsessively training in a single domain. An Ork is a superhuman being built for war who live a life of violence and constant warfare against each other or other races from day one up until the time they die which might be centuries. Tau Fire Warriors are born and raised to be warriors and are descendant of a long eugenic program to make them more efficient in combat. Tyranid warriors are specifically built to eat galaxies. Necrons warriors and Immortals are eons old machine of living metal whose only function is war. Space Marines aren't special compared to these.
Hell, even if you compare them to elite humans they aren't all that exceptional. Scions are trained from early infancy in the most murderous and intense military academy possibly imagineable and armed with laser guns so powerful they can largely ignore a Space Marine armor while theirs protect them descently against their standard weapon. Sisters of Battle are trained in the same academies, but are in addition religious zealots of a god of war like no other and with pretty much the samestuff than Marines. Cadians, Catashans and plenty of other famous guardsmen have been also trained from early infancy to be nothing but soldiers.
Yes, Space MArines can curb stomp all none insanely trained superhuman opponents, but that's basically nobody amongst the big players in the setting. Plus, all elite humans have pretty much been equipped and trained to give them a hard time.
Yeah against humans, SM's make a mockery of their combat abilities. SM's can carve through hundreds of humans unless said humans have heavy weaponry. Lasguns are useless against power armour in the lore, as well are bayonets, even if a bayonet stabs an astartes in the weak points in the armour they still can't cause mortal injuries, unless they stab them from the eye lens.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its almost as if the writers keep forgetting that marines are only in chapters of 1000, and have the need to kill off a bunch of them to show that the enemy is srs bizniz.
I think that is the main problem - they dont think.
Grimskul wrote: Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
I totally agree, though I think the key word here is "elite".
Your average SM is a transhuman supersoldier in power armor who has spend 20-30 years doing nothing but wage war. They should absolutely curb stomp any opponent. Buuuuut they rarely do so in the novels.
Andersp90 wrote: It takes what, 15-20 years to train a new sm? How the hell are they keeping up with their losses?
It takes about three years to transform a kid into a Scout Space Marines and about three more years for a Scout to become a fully trained Space Marine. If each Chapter has about 2 or 3 hundred Scouts in training at any given point and about twice more recruits ongoing the process of becoming a Space Marines, they should be capable of recovering relatively fast their losses.
The scouts make up the 10th company and are rarely more than a 100 strong.
Yes, after 6-10 years of training you become a brother . Then you are assigned to a devastator squad to master long-ranged weaponry and after that to an assault squad to master close-quarters combat. And ONLY then can they join a "normal" tactical squad as a full battle-brother. Like i said, decades pr SM.
Chapters that have been down to a few hundred marines (like the ultra marines and blood angels) may take upwards of a hundred years to fully recover.
Also, Space Marine are very hard to kill. While a few shots in the chest, a busted leg or arm might prevent them from fighting in a specific engagement, they will survive such wounds and return to the battlefield fairly fast.
Yea, but when a novel lists half the company or squad as dead, it's probably because they are, well, dead?
Almost every source for space marine structure notes that the 100 marine limit is not applied to 10th company and it can be as large as a chapter needs. Most chapters probably have a lot of scouts.
I know quoting wiki is almost heresy, and I am only doing it because i am 99% sure I read the same statement in one of the sm dexes (possibly 5th edition).
"The Codex Astartes places no limit on the number of Scout squads that may comprise the 10th Company, although in practice few Chapters will ever have more than 10 squads at any one time. Most will have significantly fewer, depending on the suitability of aspirants and the Chapter's casualty levels."
There are quite a few quotes that go the other way saying they have more than a hundred often. But I’m not searching for them, so take it or leave it
Though I would say about your wiki quote that perhaps it makes both true, there are rarely more that a hundred as they are constantly being put into other company slots (ready or not here I come style). So the numbers never get too high? Just as an idea..
————
Going back to the science of a space marine bit.
Love the biology post, and yeah lots of it seems true.
I feel they can explain a lot of that away by just saying - imagine how different we will see medicine/biology in 8000 years, let alone the far future.
(Not so long ago headaches were demons and skulls were drilled and all sorts of other weird things).
Some points I can’t argue and they would never change, Omaphage looking at you, it others maybe future mumbo jumbo explains some away.
“the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with.”
You give them this one anyway, but REM - it’s necessary in the standard brain, but with the Catalepsan maybe it is no longer necessary?
What I’m saying is, the organs may change the way the body works now, not just add the abilities they list (which counter some of what we know presently).
You know, that kind of thing.
Basically, Hive City Dweller, I loved your post, and it was a great read and all true, but ya know, the future. And stuff
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its almost as if the writers keep forgetting that marines are only in chapters of 1000, and have the need to kill off a bunch of them to show that the enemy is srs bizniz.
I think that is the main problem - they dont think.
Grimskul wrote: Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
I totally agree, though I think the key word here is "elite".
Your average SM is a transhuman supersoldier in power armor who has spend 20-30 years doing nothing but wage war. They should absolutely curb stomp any opponent. Buuuuut they rarely do so in the novels.
Andersp90 wrote: It takes what, 15-20 years to train a new sm? How the hell are they keeping up with their losses?
It takes about three years to transform a kid into a Scout Space Marines and about three more years for a Scout to become a fully trained Space Marine. If each Chapter has about 2 or 3 hundred Scouts in training at any given point and about twice more recruits ongoing the process of becoming a Space Marines, they should be capable of recovering relatively fast their losses.
The scouts make up the 10th company and are rarely more than a 100 strong.
Yes, after 6-10 years of training you become a brother . Then you are assigned to a devastator squad to master long-ranged weaponry and after that to an assault squad to master close-quarters combat. And ONLY then can they join a "normal" tactical squad as a full battle-brother. Like i said, decades pr SM.
Chapters that have been down to a few hundred marines (like the ultra marines and blood angels) may take upwards of a hundred years to fully recover.
Also, Space Marine are very hard to kill. While a few shots in the chest, a busted leg or arm might prevent them from fighting in a specific engagement, they will survive such wounds and return to the battlefield fairly fast.
Yea, but when a novel lists half the company or squad as dead, it's probably because they are, well, dead?
Almost every source for space marine structure notes that the 100 marine limit is not applied to 10th company and it can be as large as a chapter needs. Most chapters probably have a lot of scouts.
I know quoting wiki is almost heresy, and I am only doing it because i am 99% sure I read the same statement in one of the sm dexes (possibly 5th edition).
"The Codex Astartes places no limit on the number of Scout squads that may comprise the 10th Company, although in practice few Chapters will ever have more than 10 squads at any one time. Most will have significantly fewer, depending on the suitability of aspirants and the Chapter's casualty levels."
There are quite a few quotes that go the other way saying they have more than a hundred often. But I’m not searching for them, so take it or leave it
Though I would say about your wiki quote that perhaps it makes both true, there are rarely more that a hundred as they are constantly being put into other company slots (ready or not here I come style). So the numbers never get too high? Just as an idea..
————
Going back to the science of a space marine bit.
Love the biology post, and yeah lots of it seems true.
I feel they can explain a lot of that away by just saying - imagine how different we will see medicine/biology in 8000 years, let alone the far future.
(Not so long ago headaches were demons and skulls were drilled and all sorts of other weird things).
Some points I can’t argue and they would never change, Omaphage looking at you, it others maybe future mumbo jumbo explains some away.
“the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with.”
You give them this one anyway, but REM - it’s necessary in the standard brain, but with the Catalepsan maybe it is no longer necessary?
What I’m saying is, the organs may change the way the body works now, not just add the abilities they list (which counter some of what we know presently).
You know, that kind of thing.
Basically, Hive City Dweller, I loved your post, and it was a great read and all true, but ya know, the future. And stuff
Gene manipulation is already in the immediate future.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah against humans, SM's make a mockery of their combat abilities. SM's can carve through hundreds of humans unless said humans have heavy weaponry. Lasguns are useless against power armour in the lore, as well are bayonets, even if a bayonet stabs an astartes in the weak points in the armour they still can't cause mortal injuries, unless they stab them from the eye lens.
Lasguns can kill Space Marines btw, they must shoot point blank at maximum power setting though. In the first Gaunt's Ghost novel that's how one Space Marine gets killed. A guardsmen sneak behind him while he tries to kill Gaunt in close combat and blows his helmet off with his lasgun. Later, in a another novel, a Khorn berzerker gets killed by when a platoon of guardsmen open fire on him and basically reduce him to a burning wreck due to too much lasgun fire (then again that's what you should expect when a 100 guys open fire on you at the same time while you run at them in an empty field). Hell, a Cadian caveman (or woman) stabbed a Space Marine through the neck with a primitive spear and killed him (the only casualty of the battle true), but I suspect he was bare headed.
Grimskul wrote: Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
Because the space marines are the elite of the elite special forces. Their method of "pacification" is kill any living thing that isn't a space marine in X meter radius. Occupation is not something a space marine does, that is a job for the guard. They exist to apply overwhelming force in a small area when a lance strike from space wont do for whatever reason. That is their only purpose and they are fairly useless outside of that from a strictly military perspective.
There is a big problem with bias in the lore, like in the path of the warrior novel, stating that SM's are no match for aspect warriors etc. Which is pretty stupid, I could live with an equal match but no match at all, come on.
There will always be a massive gap in the sources of how strong certain warriors are because of that, as Eldar players want their guys to be the best as do SM's, Necrons etc.. Thats why the best writers stay true to the lore and don't try and mary sue their favourite army, characters etc. Matt Ward is the worst offender for that, he doesn't even try to be fair and balanced.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Primaris and most of the new fluff, GW have thrown a gak show spanner in the lore.
Has anyone ever heard someone say they actually liked the Primaris fluff and thought it was a good idea? Dare I say, I think we're in unanimous agreement on this one thing.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Primaris and most of the new fluff, GW have thrown a gak show spanner in the lore.
Has anyone ever heard someone say they actually liked the Primaris fluff and thought it was a good idea? Dare I say, I think we're in unanimous agreement on this one thing.
Yeah but the guy asked the question, couldn't not bring it up.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: There is a big problem with bias in the lore, like in the path of the warrior novel, stating that SM's are no match for aspect warriors etc. Which is pretty stupid, I could live with an equal match but no match at all, come on.
There will always be a massive gap in the sources of how strong certain warriors are because of that, as Eldar players want their guys to be the best as do SM's, Necrons etc.. Thats why the best writers stay true to the lore and don't try and mary sue their favourite army, characters etc.
From a purely unbiased perspective (I play guard, and have little interest in space marines)... A space marine is probably a match for an aspect warrior/banshee/elite DE infantry in a 1v1, with the winner determined by skill and experience. Otherwise, a space marine could trash pretty much any other standard infantry in the setting, including ork boyz and necron warriors. That isn't to say they are invulnerable, I think a platoon of trained+experienced guardsmen with a few heavy weapons emplacements have a good chance of taking down a SINGLE space marine if they play their cards right, or the equivalent in another factions infantry. But a SM is really one of the most powerful standard infantry in the setting, again I think I am being pretty objective about that.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Primaris and most of the new fluff, GW have thrown a gak show spanner in the lore.
Has anyone ever heard someone say they actually liked the Primaris fluff and thought it was a good idea? Dare I say, I think we're in unanimous agreement on this one thing.
Yeah but the guy asked the question, couldn't not bring it up.
I've seen people who like the models and the table top potential but I personally don't know anyone in my area outside of very new players who like how GW justified the models.
Grimskul wrote: Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
Because the space marines are the elite of the elite special forces. Their method of "pacification" is kill any living thing that isn't a space marine in X meter radius. Occupation is not something a space marine does, that is a job for the guard. They exist to apply overwhelming force in a small area when a lance strike from space wont do for whatever reason. That is their only purpose and they are fairly useless outside of that from a strictly military perspective.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what the purpose of a SM is, but even with all their tech and strike force capabilities, 100 guys are not enough to cover the ground necessary for even some of the most basic areas, like hive cities. It probably doesn't help that GW, for varities sake, likes to give stories where marines are thrown outside of this area of expertise and still do well somehow, even though they don't have the sustainability for it. Having the extra numbers just makes it more palatable as far as fluff details go.
HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've seen people who like the models and the table top potential but I personally don't know anyone in my area outside of very new players who like how GW justified the models.
I really like the models. The apothecary in particular really stands out as an indication of the potential in more realistically proportioned marines. But the fluff!
I sorta agree. In a fair fight a platoon of guardsmen would probably win through the numbers against one marine. Hell post splitting up the legions, operating with out support from other IOM factions or a pitched battle should be fairly rare. Marines don't fight fair, considering they have access to so many things that most guard units don't have. Drop pods dropping into the middle of a sleeping camp. Landspeeders screaming across an armored column, ranking it with fire. Scouts having planned the perfect ambush.
I do wish at times GW did more to play up that marines are not slogging through the trenches for weeks but ideally either fighting a decisive but by design one sided fight, or if they have to stand their ground, things have gone horribly wrong and we are buying time. Obviously this is really tough to reflect on the table top, since ideally we are playing a game were both sides have a decent chance against each other.
A full platoon of guardsmen like Catashans or Cadians (or any other famous guard regiment) should match a full squad of Space Marine. That seems logical to me.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: There is a big problem with bias in the lore, like in the path of the warrior novel, stating that SM's are no match for aspect warriors etc. Which is pretty stupid, I could live with an equal match but no match at all, come on.
There will always be a massive gap in the sources of how strong certain warriors are because of that, as Eldar players want their guys to be the best as do SM's, Necrons etc.. Thats why the best writers stay true to the lore and don't try and mary sue their favourite army, characters etc.
From a purely unbiased perspective (I play guard, and have little interest in space marines)... A space marine is probably a match for an aspect warrior/banshee/elite DE infantry in a 1v1, with the winner determined by skill and experience. Otherwise, a space marine could trash pretty much any other standard infantry in the setting, including ork boyz and necron warriors. That isn't to say they are invulnerable, I think a platoon of trained+experienced guardsmen with a few heavy weapons emplacements have a good chance of taking down a SINGLE space marine if they play their cards right, or the equivalent in another factions infantry. But a SM is really one of the most powerful standard infantry in the setting, again I think I am being pretty objective about that.
The comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the author, who is clearly biased, even though its one of my favourite novels.
I sorta agree. In a fair fight a platoon of guardsmen would probably win through the numbers against one marine. Hell post splitting up the legions, operating with out support from other IOM factions or a pitched battle should be fairly rare. Marines don't fight fair, considering they have access to so many things that most guard units don't have. Drop pods dropping into the middle of a sleeping camp. Landspeeders screaming across an armored column, ranking it with fire. Scouts having planned the perfect ambush.
I do wish at times GW did more to play up that marines are not slogging through the trenches for weeks but ideally either fighting a decisive but by design one sided fight, or if they have to stand their ground, things have gone horribly wrong and we are buying time. Obviously this is really tough to reflect on the table top, since ideally we are playing a game were both sides have a decent chance against each other.
Not realistically though, a marine is literally a tank, the lore states that a SM could be dragged down by tar pits, completely ridiculous, a marine has the strength to tear through light armoured ceremite with their hands, the momentum just running through squads of infantry would be like a bowling ball against pins.
There is no fairness in war, how can a super human ever be fair in combat, its like expecting superman to fight batman at batmans strength, speed etc.
IG fans have always tried to upscale guardsmens ability, but they are as dangerous as flies compared to SM's. I mean even forgetting the armour, its still extremely hard for a human or humans to even inflict a mortal wound on a SM. Its like saying eldar guardians have a chance against wraithguard. But its why I love my DKK, because every battle they fight is against insurmountable odds but they carry on holding the line.
What I meant by fair is that a battle that kinda resembles what a normal of game of 40k would look like. Two armies a fair distance apart, terrain not benefiting either side to an extreme degree and ideally the platoon would be a bit spread out. The guardsmen would have both a special and heavy per squad. Eventually someone is going to get a lucky shot or get close and detonate a las gun pack which multiple sources have shown can kill a marine.
If it was one marine versus that in an enclosed setting, then yea that's not going to be fun time for anyone but the marine unless they are very fast on their feet.
The real answer is that 40k isn't a serious sci-fi franchise, it's fantasy in space. Complaining about chainswords is about as pointless as complaining about lightsabers, if you take the silliness away and require the setting to stand on its own against "real" sci-fi then it doesn't look good.
More particularly, 40k is fantasy in space with WW2 inspired warfare.
40k would actually benefit from more focus on melee, not less. The strategic aim of most battles should be to drive the enemy away and take their battlefield territory, not to sit there and 'pew pew' at each other until one side is dead.
HoundsofDemos wrote: When they get back a few months or years later there are a bunch of new recruits from the reserve companies getting promotions and a ton of scouts ready to join those companies.
A fully fledged SM has been 20-30 years in the making. And there are rarely more than a 100 scouts in each chapter.
It took the ultra marines a century to fully recover their losses after beating hive fleet Behemoth.
Andersp90 wrote: Your average SM is a transhuman supersoldier in power armor who has spend 20-30 years doing nothing but wage war. They should absolutely curb stomp any opponent. Buuuuut they rarely do so in the novels. :facepalm
That's because all their enemies are exactly like that too. An Eldar is superhuman psychic being built for war. An Aspect Warrior will have decades if not century of obsessively training in a single domain. An Ork is a superhuman being built for war who live a life of violence and constant warfare against each other or other races from day one up until the time they die which might be centuries. Tau Fire Warriors are born and raised to be warriors and are descendant of a long eugenic program to make them more efficient in combat. They come from a civilisation more advanced than humanity too. Tyranid warriors are specifically built to eat galaxies. Necrons warriors and Immortals are eons old machine of living metal whose only function is war armed with disintagration guns and transdimentional blades. Space Marines aren't that special compared to these.
Hell, even if you compare them to elite humans they aren't all that exceptional. Scions are trained from early infancy in the most murderous and intense military academy possibly imagineable and armed with laser guns so powerful they can largely ignore a Space Marine armor while theirs protect them descently against their standard weapon. Sisters of Battle are trained in the same academies, but are in addition religious zealots of a god of war like no other and with pretty much the same stuff than Marines. Cadians, Catashans and plenty of other famous guardsmen have been also trained from early infancy to be nothing but soldiers.
Yes, Space Marines can curb stomp all none insanely trained superhuman opponents, but that's basically nobody amongst the big players in the setting. Plus, all elite humans have pretty much been equipped and trained to give them a hard time.
I agree that the eldar elites should be able to go toe to toe with a SM.
A centuries old ork is a rare thing. Your average ork are sluggas/shoota boyz. A SM should curb stump them - but they dont in many novels..
Tau fire warriors are no match for an astartes. Suits is another story.
Yep, sending astartes to fight the tyranids is like pissing in the wind.
SM's actually reap a heavy toll on necron warrriors - both at range and CC. The big problem is that they dont stay down.
The mental processing capacity, physical presence, reflexes etc etc are far beyond what any human can ever hope to achieve - no matter how much they train. And that is why they mop the floor with scions etc.
There are quite a few quotes that go the other way saying they have more than a hundred often. But I’m not searching for them, so take it or leave it
I have never seen any indication of that, so unless you can provide at quote im not buying it.
They exist to apply overwhelming force in a small area when a lance strike from space wont do for whatever reason. That is their only purpose and they are fairly useless outside of that from a strictly military perspective.
And that is what pisses me off..
A platoon is way overkill
I agree.
By the standard of many BL novels, a single guardsman with a sharp stick would be plenty.
A full platoon of guardsmen like Catashans or Cadians (or any other famous guard regiment) should match a full squad of Space Marine. That seems logical to me.
Andersp90 wrote: The mental processing capacity, physical presence, reflexes etc etc are far beyond what any human can ever hope to achieve - no matter how much they train. And that is why they mop the floor with scions etc.
Since Space Marines don't mop the floor with Scions (or Sisters) as they have fought shoulder to shoulder with and against each other on several occasions in the fluff, it seems to me that you are overstating the abilities of Space Marines a bit. Space Marines are indeed much stronger than any human being can hope to achieve (unless they are mutants or psykers of course) and while they are extremely intelligent and fast, the most highly train humans can keep up with them in that domain as demonstrated numerous times in the fluff where heroic or highly trained humans are seen dodging their blows or even, in the case of a Canoness sword fighting a Grey Knight commander (and sometime they even win those duels). I like the idea of the best humans being able to at least present a challenge to Space Marines as it make human faction (especially elite human faction) pertinent to the setting instead of filler or worse and it seems GW describe this as possible, but feel free to disagree with that.
Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.
Andersp90 wrote: The mental processing capacity, physical presence, reflexes etc etc are far beyond what any human can ever hope to achieve - no matter how much they train. And that is why they mop the floor with scions etc.
Since Space Marines don't mop the floor with Scions (or Sisters) as they have fought shoulder to shoulder with and against each other on several occasions in the fluff, it seems to me that you are overstating the abilities of Space Marines a bit. Space Marines are indeed much stronger than any human being can hope to achieve (unless they are mutants or psykers of course) and while they are extremely intelligent and fast, the most highly train humans can keep up with them in that domain as demonstrated numerous times in the fluff where heroic or highly trained humans are seen dodging their blows or even, in the case of a Canoness sword fighting a Grey Knight commander (and sometime they even win those duels). I like the idea of the best humans being able to at least present a challenge to Space Marines as it make human faction (especially elite human faction) pertinent to the setting instead of filler or worse and it seems GW describe this as possible, but feel free to disagree with that.
Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...
the most highly train humans can keep up with them in that domain as demonstrated numerous times in the fluff where heroic or highly trained humans are seen dodging their blows or even, in the case of a Canoness sword fighting a Grey Knight commander (and sometime they even win those duels).
And that is the kind of BS I hate about the lore - do to what I have stated above.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.
Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.
Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.
Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.
Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.
Andersp90 wrote: Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...
...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy. Most Space Marines were born to be hunter-gatherers or farmers. Despite this though, I do believe a fight between a Space Marine and a Sister or a Scion is strongly at the advantage of the Space Marine. I would put the Space Marine at one for three (maybe four) agaisnt the Scions, one for two (maybe three) against the Sister and one for 10 against an elite Guardsmen (like a Catashan or a Cadian vet). against a casual PDF like trooper, I would say one against 50, but at that scale the presence of anti-armor weapon starts to muddle the water. A lucky krak grenade or heavy bolter shot and the Space Marine is out of combat.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.
Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.
Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.
Not at all, a squad of SM's are an army unto to themselves, why do you think chapters send single squads all over the galaxy, saying they are only good because of their ships is completely baseless.
You can have all the memes you want, it isn't going to make them better soldiers. The reason their are so many memes is a joke based on their weakness against insurmountable odds or their own insurmountable odds killing the enemy due to having millions upon millions of guardsmen, 'they'll drown the enemy in blood' etc. you obviously don't get the memes.
I mean you collect guard for that reason, because they are weak but unyielding in the face of ridiculously strong enemies.
Andersp90 wrote: Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...
...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.
Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.
Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.
Not at all, a squad of SM's are an army unto to themselves, why do you think chapters send single squads all over the galaxy, saying they are only good because of their ships is completely baseless.
You can have all the memes you want, it isn't going to make them better soldiers. The reason their are so many memes is a joke based on their weakness against insurmountable odds or their own insurmountable odds killing the enemy due to having millions upon millions of guardsmen, 'they'll drown the enemy in blood' etc. you obviously don't get the memes.
I mean you collect guard for that reason, because they are weak but unyielding in the face of ridiculously strong enemies.
I collect Guard because they're humans I absolutely hate that they're considered gakky. Its why I stick to Guard books, because they at least displays the Guard as competent. Screw that drowning the enemies in blood and I get the memes, I am just tired of being told how much my faction sucks and that the super cool awesome-o Space Marines can cut through hundreds of them.
Edit: Its also part of why I have a pure Scion list, elite humans that can make a mess of Marines and making a mockery of their armor is exactly the kind of thing I like.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah "a platoon should be able to tackle a 'squad' of marines" only if they have heavy weapons or plasmaguns, if its just against guardsmen with flashlights and bayonets, A single SM could go through hundreds,of them at ease. I mean in the 40k universe, without tanks and heavy ordnance Imperial guard would be useless as an army, I mean even tau are more dangerous than them seeing that their pulse weapons are actually good. Human soldiers are pretty much the worst soldiers in the universe other than cultists, gretchin or nurgling etc. They only thing that makes the guard so effective are their endless numbers.
Due to the GW crappy sense of scale Marines are only useful as an army due to their ships, when you think about it.
Edit: Of course and here comes the ''gak on the Guard memes'' oh boy.
Not at all, a squad of SM's are an army unto to themselves, why do you think chapters send single squads all over the galaxy, saying they are only good because of their ships is completely baseless.
You can have all the memes you want, it isn't going to make them better soldiers. The reason their are so many memes is a joke based on their weakness against insurmountable odds or their own insurmountable odds killing the enemy due to having millions upon millions of guardsmen, 'they'll drown the enemy in blood' etc. you obviously don't get the memes.
I mean you collect guard for that reason, because they are weak but unyielding in the face of ridiculously strong enemies.
I collect Guard because they're humans I absolutely hate that they're considered gakky. Its why I stick to Guard books, because they at least displays the Guard as competent. Screw that drowning the enemies in blood and I get the memes, I am just tired of being told how much my faction sucks and that the super cool awesome-o Space Marines can cut through hundreds of them.
Edit: Its also part of why I have a pure Scion list, elite humans that can make a mess of Marines and making a mockery of their armor is exactly the kind of thing I like.
Wow, why collect guard if you want them to be a match for marines. They'll always be gakky in the 40k universe. I mean without their tanks they are just like present day soldiers, I mean imagine a SM in power armour and how they would annihilate present day soldiers. Even if they were just a normal human in power armour they'd be unstoppable unless they were up against tanks. You should love guard for what they are, otherwise you'll always be disappointing and feel inferior. I mean guardsmen are actually far better in the lore than they should be, I mean they shouldn't really have any veterns at all with the armies they fight, I mean they have worse casualty rates than any war in real human history. Characters like Sly Marbo are insanely unrealistic, one of the reason guard are fun, like orks and space wolves they are comical. I collect DKK, love them, but thats because I'm aware of what they are, they are the baddest soldiers in the galaxy, because they can hold the line against Tyranid swarms or Ork WAAAGH!'s or CSM's. You should collect sisters of battle if you want humans to be somewhat a match for SM's.
Scions are good at killing marines in the game but lore wise they are still just guard with armour penetrating weapons.
I want them competent, not Marine equivalent. As my reasons for loving my army, leave that to me, don't tell me what I should and should not like about them. The fact that they're like modern soldier is a plus to me. You're free to think Guard shouldn't be able to live past a minute on the battlefield, I think otherwise and there's plenty of in-between for different Guard fans.
Bobthehero wrote: I want them competent, not Marine equivalent. As my reasons for loving my army, leave that to me.
They are competent, what makes you think they aren't, just because they can't take a SM or a wraithknight down with ease. The are the reason that the Imperium is still the Imperium. As for loving your army, I don't think you do, because you want them to be something they aren't. I also collect Orks, it would be like me wanting orks to be able to shoot worth a damn or be able to be skillful in CC, thats something that they can't do but it doesn't make them incompetent as an army, they have other strengths other than that and I wouldn't want them to shoot well or fight as gracefully as the Eldar.
Bobthehero wrote: So basically my opinion of my army isn't the same as yours, so I don't love it. Okay, sure, yes, makes sense.
No, it has nothing to do with me. You admit that you want your army to be something they are not, so how can you 100% love them. Its like me wanting my cultists to be as good as guard, I mean why would I want that? I would take away the reason why they are good and have so much flavour to them.
Andersp90 wrote: Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...
...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer
Are you joking?
No, absolutly not here is how I break it down.
Scions enter the schola progenium at the age of 6 to 12, they must be orphan sons and daughters of nobles, heroic officers, saints and will stay there at least 6 years, training in an absolutly inhumain military academy under the tutelage of former Scions known as the Drill Abbots. They are mindwiped and submitted to what amounts to torture and ridiculously hard military training. Once this is done the best fighters will be sent to the Tempestor Academy, where Scions will train for at least another three years under similar circomstances to finally become a fully minted Scion. They will then be deployed on various missions until they die or get so old that eventhe mild rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point they usually become Drill Abbots. That's a total of about 9 years of training before the first deployment.
Sisters pass through an identical infancy, but instead of going to the Tempestor Academy to go to one of the covent of hte Holy Order that recruited them in the first place to be trained for about four more years. Then, they will start to be deployed in various mission until they die or get so old that even the good rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point some become Drill Abbess, but most just change to a non combatant Order higher op position. That's a total of about 10 years before the first deployment.
Space Marines recruit boys age 10 to 13 from their Chapter's world, which is most often a low tech world with a low population. Most of them have never seen any advanced technology or used a weapon in their lives as they were too young for that sort of thing. They get psycho indoctrinement to teach them the basics of High Gothic and get them used to technology. They also start the long process of implantation that last about 3 years during which several will die since they will reject the geneseed. After those three years, their training really start and they become Scouts for about three years. There they will train like maniacs under a veteran Space Marine and after those three years become a proper battle brother. They will join a devastator unit as their first assignment in most Chapters. That's a total of about three years before the first deployment, but let's say six before the first deployment as a full Space Marine in power armor.
By those pure numbers derived from the Militarum Tempestus Codex, the Sister of Battle Codex and the Space Marine Codex (and some WD material) it seems to me that Scions and Sisters have a longer period of training and it's just as intense as that of Space Marines which are still very well trained let's face it. That longer training and this bigger, better pool of recruits would most likely produce more skilled and resourseful soldiers than Space Marines albeit without all the powers provided by their gene enhancements. Yet, those gene enhancements and excellent training does make a single Space Marine superior to a single Scion or Sister, but, sometime thanks to a better training and very good equipment, it's the later that comes up ahead.
Andersp90 wrote: Scions are "trained to the peak of human perfection". - astartes are beyond human...
...but Space Marines aren't as well trained. Superhuman they might be and very well trained they are, but they don't quite have the level of training of Scions and Sisters. Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer
Are you joking?
No, absolutly not here is how I break it down.
Scions enter the schola progenium at the age of 6 to 12, they must be orphan sons and daughters of nobles, heroic officers, saints and will stay there at least 6 years, training in an absolutly inhumain military academy under the tutelage of former Scions known as the Drill Abbots. They are mindwiped and submitted to what amounts to torture and ridiculously hard military training. Once this is done the best fighters will be sent to the Tempestor Academy, where Scions will train for at least another three years under similar circomstances to finally become a fully minted Scion. They will then be deployed on various missions until they die or get so old that eventhe mild rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point they usually become Drill Abbots. That's a total of about 9 years of training before the first deployment.
Sisters pass through an identical infancy, but instead of going to the Tempestor Academy to go to one of the covent of hte Holy Order that recruited them in the first place to be trained for about four more years. Then, they will start to be deployed in various mission until they die or get so old that even the good rejuvenat treatment they have access to can't keep them going at which point some become Drill Abbess, but most just change to a non combatant Order higher op position. That's a total of about 10 years before the first deployment.
Space Marines recruit boys age 10 to 13 from their Chapter's world, which is most often a low tech world with a low population. Most of them have never seen any advanced technology or used a weapon in their lives as they were too young for that sort of thing. They get psycho indoctrinement to teach them the basics of High Gothic and get them used to technology. They also start the long process of implantation that last about 3 years during which several will die since they will reject the geneseed. After those three years, their training really start and they become Scouts for about three years. There they will train like maniacs under a veteran Space Marine and after those three years become a proper battle brother. They will join a devastator unit as their first assignment in most Chapters. That's a total of about three years before the first deployment, but let's say six before the first deployment as a full Space Marine in power armor.
By those pure numbers derived from the Militarum Tempestus Codex, the Sister of Battle Codex and the Space Marine Codex (and some WD material) it seems to me that Scions and Sisters have a longer period of training and it's just as intense as that of Space Marines which are still very well trained let's face it. That longer training and this bigger, better pool of recruits would most likely produce more skilled and resourseful soldiers than Space Marines albeit without all the powers provided by their gene enhancements.
That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?
Going back to the science of a space marine bit.
Love the biology post, and yeah lots of it seems true.
I feel they can explain a lot of that away by just saying - imagine how different we will see medicine/biology in 8000 years, let alone the far future.
(Not so long ago headaches were demons and skulls were drilled and all sorts of other weird things).
Some points I can’t argue and they would never change, Omaphage looking at you, it others maybe future mumbo jumbo explains some away.
“the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with.”
You give them this one anyway, but REM - it’s necessary in the standard brain, but with the Catalepsan maybe it is no longer necessary?
What I’m saying is, the organs may change the way the body works now, not just add the abilities they list (which counter some of what we know presently).
You know, that kind of thing.
Basically, Hive City Dweller, I loved your post, and it was a great read and all true, but ya know, the future. And stuff
Glad you liked the read! Yes, I generally presume that the science of the 41st millennium is so far advanced that all of this stuff is possible and presents no challenge to the magos biologus. If they had left it at "some really complicated 40K science is applied to space marine and BINGO, the bugger gets bigger, tougher and killier" I would have been perfectly happy to accept the answer.
It's only because they went to the length of naming specific organs and pathways that the illusion is broken for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly willing to suspend disbelief, but there are some fundamental truths that can't be ignored when they are broken regardless of setting. If somebody told you that the men and women of the 41st millennium were fundamentally different from today's humans we could even assume that today's physiology and medicine can't be applied to them, but alas from our knowledge of basic humans in 40K they really are no different from humans alive today. It also would have been easy to say: Space marines are a separate species of genetically engineered super-human that are only produced in a lab and don't share our anatomy and physiology. This would have been acceptable. Problem arises when you say; "All space marines start out as regular humans and become genetically engineered super soldiers! This premise is hard to accept because all we know about genetics doesn't allow you to take a fully formed organism (eg a human child) and transform it into something entirety different like a super-human adult marine. I am willing to grant them the basic excuse of "well the technology used is so far ahead of our time it defies imagination. That's dubious but possible. They had to go out of the way and specify not only all the organs implanted but all the mechanisms of HOW these organs made the kids into super humans. This is where the whole thing falls apart.
They can either make it quasi-scientific or keep the process shrouded in mystery, but they cannot explicitly give you the steps and expect it makes sense "because the future!".
Writing this up did make me think of how this could be ret-conned to make some "sort of " scientific sense and this is what I came up with:
Space marine aspirants are implanted with a SINGLE organ- the Progenitor gland. This is an autonomous tissue that contains primarch DNA and has been bio-engineered to regulate both itself and the host's body systems. When implanted it is attached behind the sternum (in the place of the old thymus gland), where it wont't get in the way and will be protected. It is linked up to the nervous system and to the blood supply so that it can communicate through both hormonal and neurologic circuits. It contains secretory cells that start to produce all necessary proteins and molecules foreign to the body which will help with growth, and enact all the super-human physiologic adaptations necessary to make the marine resillient. It would have to also be able to integrate specific parts of it's DNA into the host so that new bodily materials like proteins/hormones/structural proteins can be made. (Viruses and bacteria can do this already; incorporating bits of their genetic material into our DNA so that we can make their structural proteins for them. (look up life cysle of HIV virus if curious))
No major surgery to introduce extra organs like lungs/kidneys/poisonous glands, just a robust implanted organ which works the purposely vague science of the 41st millennium. When the marine dies, apothecary sticks his tool into the marine's sternum and extracts the gland. There you have it, nice and simple and purposely vague.
Bobthehero wrote: So basically my opinion of my army isn't the same as yours, so I don't love it. Okay, sure, yes, makes sense.
No, it has nothing to do with me. You admit that you want your army to be something they are not, so how can you 100% love them. Its like me wanting my cultists to be as good as guard, I mean why would I want that? I would take away the reason why they are good and have so much flavour to them.
I don't want my army to be considering good for nothing except for drowning the enemies in blood while the Marines do anything worth mentionning. This kind of things doesn't happen in Guard books, and this is what I like. And the TT does offer me that, where a full army of Guard doesn't die the second a Space Marines shows up.
So no I don't think I have the wrong vision of my armies, just one you don't share.
Bobthehero wrote: So basically my opinion of my army isn't the same as yours, so I don't love it. Okay, sure, yes, makes sense.
No, it has nothing to do with me. You admit that you want your army to be something they are not, so how can you 100% love them. Its like me wanting my cultists to be as good as guard, I mean why would I want that? I would take away the reason why they are good and have so much flavour to them.
I don't want my army to be considering good for nothing except for drowning the enemies in blood while the Marines do anything worth mentionning. This kind of things doesn't happen in Guard books, and this is what I like. And the TT does offer me that, where a full army of Guard doesn't die the second a Space Marines shows up.
So no I don't think I have the wrong vision of my armies, just one you don't share.
They are good against eldar guardians, tau, ork boys etc. They are just not good at taking on SM's, why are SM's the benchmark that you set them on? Of course Imperial guard books are going to show them in a good light, but they still are no match for marines.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?
That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).
Delvarus Centurion wrote: That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?
That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).
A big part of the "gakiness" of Guardsmen is that from the outset GW decided that it would overpower the other main factions relative to humans. It was the same in WHFB. We don't know much about the weaker aliens that the IG are out curb stomping because they aren't highlighted in the fluff or on the tabletop.
An Ork Boy is fairly "gakky" in tabletop terms despite being a hard as nails monstrosity if you could imagine one in "real life".
Delvarus Centurion wrote: That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?
That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).
Sources please?
Codex Space Marine 3rd eddition, there is a chart with the implant process.
What are yours for the average Space Marine being over a hundred years old? It's possible there is a conflict in the various product of GW (that wouldn't be the first time)
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Even if they were just a normal human in power armour they'd be unstoppable unless they were up against tanks.
Yeah, no. Guard have heavy weapons and they know how to use them. Unless you're assuming that a guard platoon wouldn't have a nice assortment of heavy bolters, plasma and autocannons? Marines being better than guard is fine, but do we really need marines to be equal to hundreds of guard? 1 marine being equal to 5 or 10 guardsmen is more than adequate to show their elite value without being ridiculous.
Besides, if you go by the fluff, a single guardsman can kill a marine... with a lasgun. So, "unstoppable" is a stretch. I mean, would a Crisis Suit be unstoppable against a full platoon?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: That's ridiculous, Marines fight as scouts for about 50 years in some cases before they become marines a normal marine has fought for 100-200 years, how on gods green earth could you possibly suggest that humans are better trained?
That,s actually a myth. Scouts are Space Marines before they receive their Black Carapace Implants, but after they receive all others. The last implants to receive before the Black Carapace is put on at the age of 16 (with a year more or less depending on the age of hte recruit), the Black Carapace around the age of 18. Those two-three years, they spend as Scouts. Most Marines are about as old as any other soldier in the Imperium. A 200 years old Space Marine is a rare veteran just like a 200 years old Commissar, Sister or Scion is a rare thing (note that all three have been mentioned in the fluff at some point).
Sources please?
Codex Space Marine 3rd eddition, there is a chart with the implant process.
What are yours for the average Space Marine being over a hundred years old? It's possible there is a conflict in the various product of GW (that wouldn't be the first time)
Well I haven't read much of the new lore, but sgt's of tactical squads are known to fight for centuries so I was exaggerating but even tactical marines will fight for decades, how can you compare that to guard etc. I mean a human only has a small period of combat ability, say 16- late 30's fighting, that is the least an average marine has. You are also using the most elite versions of guard etc, so yeah actually they have 100-200 years on humans. An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.
Most of them have never seen any advanced technology or used a weapon in their lives as they were too young for that sort of thing.
"Recruits are chosen from the best warriors among humanity. Naturally this makes Death and Feral Worlds prized recruitment grounds, as such harsh and primal conditions produce the best warriors."
That is a central pillar in the SM fluff, and is futured in a ton of BL novellas...
This is from angels of darkness:
"Blood Angels Aspirants are selected at a periodic tournament known as the Angel's Fall, on Baal Secundus. Although hundreds, possibly thousands, of challengers participate in the violent games and contests held there, only fifty victorious Aspirants are selected. These fifty are then taken to the Fortress Monastery on Baal, where they will hopefully be able to withstand even more tests before becoming Neophytes"
For GKs its only one in a million that makes it.
After those three years, their training really
The merciless training begins the day they are accepted (like i have stated above) - did you think they sat on their hands for 3 years?
..start and they become Scouts for about three years. There they will train like maniacs under a veteran Space Marine and after
those three years become a proper battle brother.
They will join a devastator unit as their first assignment in most Chapters. That's a total of about three years before the first deployment, but let's say six before the first deployment as a full Space Marine in power armor.
No.
They are not fully trained/battle-brothers before training first as a dev and then as an assault marine. After that they are allowed to join a "standard" tac squad.
It also means that the LEAST experienced battle-brother have at least 20-30 years of combat experience.
Well I haven't read much of the new lore, but sgt's of tactical squads are known to fight for centuries so I was exaggerating but even tactical marines will fight for decades, how can you compare that to guard etc. I mean a human only has a small period of combat ability, say 16- late 30's fighting, that is the least an average marine has. You are also using the most elite versions of guard etc, so yeah actually they have 100-200 years on humans. An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.
Yes, of course Space Marines are much better trained than the.. erm... "casual guardsmen", I was comparing them with Tempestus Scions (which aren't guardsmen) and Sisters. Scions and Sisters are, in my opinion, no longer humans. Not because they have gene enhancements or bionics or any special powers, but because their training and education transformed them into wrecks of human being, but fantastic killing machines. It's also important to note that being an elite soldiers of an august institutions of noble descent, Scions and Sisters have access to rejuvenat drugs that allows them to live and fight for centuries just like Space Marine. Compared to a guardsmen who is technically a trained soldier from the very best unit of his homeworld (more like US Ranger or a Brit Green Beret), they aren't much, but still not to be underestimated in range engagements. Against conscripts, cultists, PDFs or penal troopers, Space Marine are indeed god-like.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.
You claim to know about Guard and spout something like that...
In any case, during the long voyage between their homeworld and the regiment's destination, the newly inducted Guardsmen will receive intensive training that tempers the natural fighting skills of their many disparate cultures and forges them into soldiers worthy of the Astra Militarum. They are trained in the use of specialised weaponry and vehicles and receive proper indoctrination into the Imperial Cult.
I just pulled that from the wiki. And that only covers "newly inducted guardsmen", most regiments that are deployed have had some prior experience in battle. Another important distinction is that of the PDFs versus the guard proper. A PDF's discipline and training varies wildly and might be little more than a militia, but the Guard has standards for training.
Andersp90 wrote: "Blood Angels Aspirants are selected at a periodic tournament known as the Angel's Fall, on Baal Secundus. Although hundreds, possibly thousands, of challengers participate in the violent games and contests held there, only fifty victorious Aspirants are selected. These fifty are then taken to the Fortress Monastery on Baal, where they will hopefully be able to withstand even more tests before becoming Neophytes"
A death match between hundreds of untrained, mostly poorly fed 10 to 13 years old boy isn't as good as taking well fed 6 years old training them for 6 years in combat with experiemented trainers including and then only selecting the very best out of them after a battery of deadly tests for further training. Also amongst those 50 some will simply die due to genetic incompatibility with the geneseed and these are totally random, you might lose your very best recruit to that. Plus you only get boys and no girls, that constrict your talent pool. That's a nice ritual way of recruiting for a knightly order of warrior, but it's far from being the most efficient. Assessing the full potential for war of a human before the end of puberty is also nearly impossible and yet all neophyte are selected before that for the process of transformation into Space Marne to work. Good thing they are well trained after that.
Well I haven't read much of the new lore, but sgt's of tactical squads are known to fight for centuries so I was exaggerating but even tactical marines will fight for decades, how can you compare that to guard etc. I mean a human only has a small period of combat ability, say 16- late 30's fighting, that is the least an average marine has. You are also using the most elite versions of guard etc, so yeah actually they have 100-200 years on humans. An average guardsman has no training, is given a flashlight and told to get to the front line, its far more rare for guard to have vets. A lot of which are farmed from penal colonies or parts of planets and are undisciplined and untrained.
Yes, of course Space Marines are much better trained than the.. erm... "casual guardsmen", I was comparing them with Tempestus Scions (which aren't guardsmen) and Sisters. Scions and Sisters are, in my opinion, no longer humans. Not because they have gene enhancements or bionics or any special powers, but because their training and education transformed them into wrecks of human being, but fantastic killing machines. It's also important to note that being an elite soldiers of an august institutions of noble descent, Scions and Sisters have access to rejuvenat drugs that allows them to live and fight for centuries just like Space Marine. Compared to a guardsmen who is technically a trained soldier from the very best unit of his homeworld (more like US Ranger or a Brit Green Beret), they aren't much, but still not to be underestimated in range engagements. Against conscripts, cultists, PDFs or penal troopers, Space Marine are indeed god-like.
Yeah but your still wrong. They aren't trained more extensively and if you are going to compare an elite force you should compare it to another elite force and in that case vet SM's have a hundred if not hundreds of years on those human elites.
In any case, during the long voyage between their homeworld and the regiment's destination, the newly inducted Guardsmen will receive intensive training that tempers the natural fighting skills of their many disparate cultures and forges them into soldiers worthy of the Astra Militarum. They are trained in the use of specialised weaponry and vehicles and receive proper indoctrination into the Imperial Cult.
I just pulled that from the wiki. And that only covers "newly inducted guardsmen", most regiments that are deployed have had some prior experience in battle. Another important distinction is that of the PDFs versus the guard proper. A PDF's discipline and training varies wildly and might be little more than a militia, but the Guard has standards for training.
well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah but your still wrong. They aren't trained more extensively and if you are going to compare an elite force you should compare it to another elite force and in that case vet SM's have a hundred if not hundreds of years on those human elites.
If you want to compare 1st Company Veteran, you need to compare them to Celestians with similar level of experience and age thanks to rejuvenat and bionics.
well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.
All guardsmen are from their local PDF and more than that they are usually from their very best regiments since providing poor guardsmen as tithe to the Imperial Guard is something that can get governors killed. Yes, some guards will be little more than vicious gangsters, pit fighters and militia, but other might be highly trained soldiers. Imperial Guards are very varied in term of quality, uniforms and doctrine. A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight, etc.
Got a little off topic here. I wasnt wanting to start a faction debate, but I appreciate folks remaining civil. I think guardsmen are good for the lore. I think the setting needs a human faction who are mostly at a disadvantage in most scenarios, so you get that warm fuzzy feeling when they overcome the odds.
Personally I like reading SM books, but usually only those where they are fighting other SM, to make it a bit more even.
Going back to the science of a space marine bit.
Love the biology post, and yeah lots of it seems true.
I feel they can explain a lot of that away by just saying - imagine how different we will see medicine/biology in 8000 years, let alone the far future.
(Not so long ago headaches were demons and skulls were drilled and all sorts of other weird things).
Some points I can’t argue and they would never change, Omaphage looking at you, it others maybe future mumbo jumbo explains some away.
“the REM sleep is necessary for normal functioning of the brain and it is a whole brain phenomenon which this organ wound interfere with.”
You give them this one anyway, but REM - it’s necessary in the standard brain, but with the Catalepsan maybe it is no longer necessary?
What I’m saying is, the organs may change the way the body works now, not just add the abilities they list (which counter some of what we know presently).
You know, that kind of thing.
Basically, Hive City Dweller, I loved your post, and it was a great read and all true, but ya know, the future. And stuff
All space marines start out as regular humans and become genetically engineered super soldiers! This premise is hard to accept because all we know about genetics doesn't allow you to take a fully formed organism (eg a human child) and transform it into something entirety different like a super-human adult marine.
That simply isn't true.
Firstly, a child is not a fully formed organism - that is why its called a child.
Secondly, the technology to edit genes in "fully formed organisms" already exists.
Andersp90 wrote: "Blood Angels Aspirants are selected at a periodic tournament known as the Angel's Fall, on Baal Secundus. Although hundreds, possibly thousands, of challengers participate in the violent games and contests held there, only fifty victorious Aspirants are selected. These fifty are then taken to the Fortress Monastery on Baal, where they will hopefully be able to withstand even more tests before becoming Neophytes"
A death match between hundreds of untrained, mostly poorly fed 10 to 13 years old boy isn't as good as taking well fed 6 years old training them for 6 years in combat with experiemented trainers including and then only selecting the very best out of them after a battery of deadly tests for further training. Also amongst those 50 some will simply die due to genetic incompatibility with the geneseed and these are totally random, you might lose your very best recruit to that. Plus you only get boys and no girls, that constrict your talent pool. That's a nice ritual way of recruiting for a knightly order of warrior, but it's far from being the most efficient. Assessing the full potential for war of a human before the end of puberty is also nearly impossible and yet all neophyte are selected before that for the process of transformation into Space Marne to work. Good thing they are well trained after that.
So if I traveled to brazil, picked 2000 kids age 10-14 from the slums, had them play football matches against each other, picked the best 50, then kept them playing futher, and then again, picking the best 25-30.
Then, after 5 years of training, I pit each of them against a child who has been randomly chosen from a wealthy family, and received training from the age of 6 and onwards.
Looking at the math, would you seriously put your money on that randomly chosen kid?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yeah but your still wrong. They aren't trained more extensively and if you are going to compare an elite force you should compare it to another elite force and in that case vet SM's have a hundred if not hundreds of years on those human elites.
If you want to compare 1st Company Veteran, you need to compare them to Celestians with similar level of experience and age thanks to rejuvenat and bionics.
well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.
All guardsmen are from their local PDF and more than that they are usually from their very best regiments since providing poor guardsmen as tithe to the Imperial Guard is something that can get governors killed. Yes, some guards will be little more than vicious gangsters, pit fighters and militia, but other might be highly trained soldiers. Imperial Guards are very varied in term of quality, uniforms and doctrine. A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight, etc.
No not in all cases, what do you not understand about 'trained on the voyage' Frankly how guard homeworlds train and organise etc are completely contingent on that world. They are not all the same, actually they vary quite a lot.
"A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight" This is ridiculous, a SM company can take a whole world and would wipe out a guard regiment easily even cadians.
well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.
Potentially, they don't get enough training. But that'd be an anomaly rather than the norm.
For threat response, the guard will send the closest regiments first (these ones were posted there and so are experienced), if those fail then they will start pooling from an ever-wider sector and at that point raise new regiments. Generally speaking, most regiments have some battle experience and new regiments are just plugging holes. As the regiments fight they gain experience but take casualties, and old regiments are merged to make room for new ones. (though the Vostroyans will never merge and instead directly replenish their regiments, which leads to regiments that date back several thousand years) All this to say that the majority of the fighting forces employed are not only trained but also experienced.
But, the big thing to note is that the training is only to get the troops to fight cohesively and effectively. Hive gangers or Catachan troops tend to be more robust but less disciplined and so prove effective even if formal training is minimal.
well, thats new.. "After being raised, the regiment is shipped to its posting; they receive their training during the voyage. Their posting can be directly into the heart of a warzone, or it may be to garrison or outpost duty" yeah and what do they do if its only 10 lightyears away? That's no time at all to train.
Potentially, they don't get enough training. But that'd be an anomaly rather than the norm.
For threat response, the guard will send the closest regiments first (these ones were posted there and so are experienced), if those fail then they will start pooling from an ever-wider sector and at that point raise new regiments. Generally speaking, most regiments have some battle experience and new regiments are just plugging holes. As the regiments fight they gain experience but take casualties, and old regiments are merged to make room for new ones. (though the Vostroyans will never merge and instead directly replenish their regiments, which leads to regiments that date back several thousand years) All this to say that the majority of the fighting forces employed are not only trained but also experienced.
But, the big thing to note is that the training is only to get the troops to fight cohesively and effectively. Hive gangers or Catachan troops tend to be more robust but less disciplined and so prove effective even if formal training is minimal.
Yeah well not quite a myth, so you are comparing the least training a marine does which is decades, with guard which is virtually nothing. Then compare the most a marine does which is centuries, with the most a guardsmen will do, which isn't even close. I mean its ridiculous we are even arguing this. Guardsmen and SM's are not even in the same universe when it comes to training.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: "A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight"
This is singularly the stupidest thing I've ever heard
In Cadian Blood by ADB, a Platoon of Cadians massacres a squad of 7 Death Guard Plague Marines. They lost 13 of their guys to the seven. A regiment is about 20 platoons. A company is about 10 squads. Looks like the stupidest thing you've ever heard happened in a book.
I think it makes sense for Cadians to be a threat to Space Marines considering the fact that their world, populated by half a billion people, is the first line of defense against the legions of Chaos. Cadians fight a lot of Chaos Space Marines. They need to be able to defeat them else why not make Cadia a Chapter World?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: "A Cadian regiment can stop a Space Marine Company dead in its track and transform the engagment in a tense and difficult battle while 6 regiments from a poor planet might completely melt before a single squad of Space Marines as they panic, shoot each others, fail to establish gunlines and bring their heavy weapons to the fight"
This is singularly the stupidest thing I've ever heard
In Cadian Blood by ADB, a Platoon of Cadians massacres a squad of 7 Death Guard Plague Marines. They lost 13 of their guys to the seven. A regiment is about 20 platoons. A company is about 10 squads. Looks like the stupidest thing you've ever heard happened in a book.
I think it makes sense for Cadians to be a threat to Space Marines considering the fact that their world, populated by half a billion people, is the first line of defense against the legions of Chaos. Cadians fight a lot of Chaos Space Marines. They need to be able to defeat them else why not make Cadia a Chapter World?
Just because its possible doesn't make it the norm and yes that's pretty stupid writing if that is the norm in guard noevels, but like I said biased fans makes for biased lore. If they have heavy weapons squads and tanks etc. but just guard with flashlights, yeah thats quite unbelievable. In all other lore, guardsmen are pretty much irritants unless completely outnumbered. Yeah they can beat SM's in superior numbers. Thats the point of the guard, superior numbers.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Just because its possible doesn't make it the norm and yes that's pretty stupid writing if that is the norm in guard noevels, but like I said biased fans makes for biased lore. Yeah they can beat SM's in superior numbers. Thats the point of the guard, superior numbers.
Of course it's pretty much the norm in guards novel because in guards novel you usually follow remarcable guard regiments and individuals just like in Space Marine novels you follow exceptional Space Marines from exceptional Chapters.
Indeed, nobody ever argued that guardsmen can defeat Space Marine in one on one (except if the one guardsmen is manning a cannon and the Space Marine is running up a field with a chainsword).
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Just because its possible doesn't make it the norm and yes that's pretty stupid writing if that is the norm in guard noevels, but like I said biased fans makes for biased lore. Yeah they can beat SM's in superior numbers. Thats the point of the guard, superior numbers.
Of course it's pretty much the norm in guards novel because in guards novel you usually follow remarcable guard regiments and individuals just like in Space Marine novels you follow exceptional Space Marines from exceptional Chapters.
Indeed, nobody ever argued that guardsmen can defeat Space Marine in one on one (except if the one guardsmen is manning a cannon and the Space Marine is running up a field with a chainsword).
If guard were that good, what is the point in SM's, why bother making them and valuing their production.
In all other lore, guardsmen are pretty much irritants unless completely outnumbered.
I think the words you're looking for here is ''in other biased books'' let's not pretend Guard novels are the only ones with a faction bias.
Of course but a marine being worth a hundred guardsmen isn't biased, its well established lore. A squad or two taking down the toughest SM's in existence is what you call biased. I mean come on, you's are trying to state that Scions ect are better trained than marines, I mean I don't have to look hard to see who's biased here.
I think with the "women can't be astartes" thing, they could easily explain it away as "the astartes-making process requires a particular balance of testosterone to estrogen otherwise the freaky cocktail of drugs we pump into you doesn't take properly, they were working on getting it working properly before the Heresy, but we've been a bit busy for the last 10,000 years".
So it more than likely works for some women, the same as it may not work for some men, and the Imperium is busy trying to keep itself afloat to focus on getting the mix right and just sticking with what they know works at the moment. And in terms of 'well why aren't there already female marines?', well they know it works the vast majority of the time on men, and minimal times on women, so why bother dumping resources into something that's more than likely going to fail when you can just take the safe bet and just make more manrines.
If guard were that good, what is the point in SM's, why bother making them and valuing their production.
Two words: force concentration.
Space Marines are worth several guardsmen, even of the best ones, as such for spear tips assault or special operation like destroying an enemy HQ or a precious asset they are very useful. Also Space Marines have their own fleet and are self sustained thanks to their homeworld. As such they are very quick to be deployed and make for perfect scouts and first intervention force should a world be under assault. They are also ideal for hunting pirates and very mobile raiders. Space Marines fight where they want when they want while guards are deployed via a cumbersome bureaucracy.The Imperium needs all its army branch to survive. Overall, Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Scions are minor actors in the Imperium defense compared to the Guard,the Navy, the Mechanicus and the PDFs.
Grimskul wrote: Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
Because the space marines are the elite of the elite special forces. Their method of "pacification" is kill any living thing that isn't a space marine in X meter radius. Occupation is not something a space marine does, that is a job for the guard. They exist to apply overwhelming force in a small area when a lance strike from space wont do for whatever reason. That is their only purpose and they are fairly useless outside of that from a strictly military perspective.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what the purpose of a SM is, but even with all their tech and strike force capabilities, 100 guys are not enough to cover the ground necessary for even some of the most basic areas, like hive cities. It probably doesn't help that GW, for varities sake, likes to give stories where marines are thrown outside of this area of expertise and still do well somehow, even though they don't have the sustainability for it. Having the extra numbers just makes it more palatable as far as fluff details go.
Eh, I can see 100 Space Marines clear out a small-ish hive city after a couple of days of nonstop fighting, assuming only light resistance. You have to remember that marines can fight for days on end without stopping or sleeping, and they move much more quickly and maneuver more swiftly than normal troops. I always use the rule of thumb that 1 space marine can do the work of a platoon of veteran guardsman in any given situation.
I disagree. 40-50 men with lasguns and a couple of emplaced weapons sounds roughly on par with a supersoldier with the armor of a light tank, that moves twice to three times as quickly as a normal man can run, and has ten times the reflex speed of a regular human. Said supersoldier probably has better aim on the move than most regular human snipers have standing still, and wields a 100 caliber automatic grenade launcher with armor piercing rounds that it fires like a normal human fires a sub-machinegun.
I don't think that a Space Marine is worth hundreds of guardsmen, even if it's just guardsmen armed with lasguns, because enough lasgun shots WILL kill a marine. But I think a platoon is a good approximation.
Now stormtroopers on the other hand... I can see a full squad (10) of stormtroopers take out a single Astarte. Considering that their armor can stop a bolter round, their guns were specifically designed to penetrate things like space marine armor, and they have been pretty much trained from birth to know nothing except war, much like Space Marines themselves.
Again, this is coming from a guard player since 3rd edition who has almost 0 interest in Space Marines (I am still considering building a Dark Angels Primaris force, but don't know if I want to spend the money on a faction I am not that into).
If guard were that good, what is the point in SM's, why bother making them and valuing their production.
Two words: force concentration.
Space Marines are worth several guardsmen, even of the best ones, as such for spear tips assault or special operation like destroying an enemy HQ or a precious asset they are very useful. Also Space Marines have their own fleet and are self sustained thanks to their homeworld. As such they are very quick to be deployed and make for perfect scouts and first intervention force should a world be under assault. They are also ideal for hunting pirates and very mobile raiders. Space Marines fight where they want when they want while guards are deployed via a cumbersome bureaucracy.The Imperium needs all its army branch to survive. Overall, Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Scions are minor actors in the Imperium defense compared to the Guard,the Navy, the Mechanicus and the PDFs.
SM's are worth 7 guardsmen. I'm seriously not even going to continue arguing with you and FYI guard have their own fleet.
Just because they are minor elements doesn't mean guard are on their level, actually never mind, there is no point.
If you're going to argue numbers of how many guardsmen a space marine is worth, the most reliable source for numbers we have indicates they're about three guardsmen...
Arachnofiend wrote: If you're going to argue numbers of how many guardsmen a space marine is worth, the most reliable source for numbers we have indicates they're about three guardsmen...
Arachnofiend wrote: If you're going to argue numbers of how many guardsmen a space marine is worth, the most reliable source for numbers we have indicates they're about three guardsmen...
Dorn said "give me a 100 astartes, failing that give me 1000 other troops"
Its not the exact quote, but the numbers are correct.
I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.
Kelligula wrote: I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.
Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.
Kelligula wrote: I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.
Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.
No, that's just what the Drukhari tells themselves to justify continuing their behavior from before the fall. The Craftworlders are pretty much the same way, keeping the aspect of pre-Fall Eldar culture they like and justifying it by completely removing the aspect of it that they don't.
Kelligula wrote: I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.
Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.
Its still kind of silly though. I get that they were trying to go for a tragic villain sort of thing, where the Eldar do the depraved gak they do because they have to, but the fact they enjoy it ruins that tragic aspect a little.
It would have been more better overall if they were just donkey-caves who are still partying like it was before the Fall.
I really like that the Haemonculi are utterly, utterly unrepentant. The eldest of their number are essentially the architects of the fall. They're the living embodiment of the excess of the old Eldar.
And they just don't care. They still wield vast power, and can still do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want.
Best bit is, I'm not even sure one can say they're actually insane. They seem fully aware of what they're doing. And just don't give a fig. Them over everything else.
Yes, and that unrepentant part is what makes them great. However, once your try to add a tragic element to them, it just comes across as a trite attempt at drama Just imagine a mad scientist who just skinned some guy, covered a wrack with said skin, then ordered the wrack to kick the guy in the nuts repeatedly all whilst saying "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself!", and then at the end of it go "oh, woe is me how I must do these things, for reasons!"
That's what that tragic aspect of DE fluff feels like to me. Its dumb.
Kelligula wrote: I got into them for their models and the initial idea that they were brutal killers and pirates that raided real space to survive. I liked the idea of Eldar that took a more cynical and brutal look at the universe and their aesthetic reflected that. I started laughing when it got to the part where they needed to pull off some Hellraiser level of torture porn to keep Slaanesh at bay.
Well their sadism feeds Slaanesh, so Slaanesh probably allows them to scoot about killing and causing suffering, kinda like a bigger picture, ends justifies the means.
Its still kind of silly though.
I get that they were trying to go for a tragic villain sort of thing, where the Eldar do the depraved gak they do because they have to, but the fact they enjoy it ruins that tragic aspect a little.
It would have been more better overall if they were just donkey-caves who are still partying like it was before the Fall.
In a universe where the colour red makes you go faster then its quite sensible lol
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I really like that the Haemonculi are utterly, utterly unrepentant. The eldest of their number are essentially the architects of the fall. They're the living embodiment of the excess of the old Eldar.
And they just don't care. They still wield vast power, and can still do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want.
Best bit is, I'm not even sure one can say they're actually insane. They seem fully aware of what they're doing. And just don't give a fig. Them over everything else.
Even if they are not repentant for moral reasons, I wonder whether any of them think that "Would I have been even more powerful if the Eldar empire had never fallen and Slaanesh never been born?" Instead of skulking away in the Webway and having to raid, they would have been part of the dominant empire of the galaxy, with the rest of the galaxy prostrate at their feet or posing no credible threat.
The Alpha Legion modus operandi, the lack of Agents as playable units, the lack of a explanation how the structure of the AL is after the Heresy. Instead they get abused as a memey plot excuse.
Primaris, i am torn on, would've prefered a bit more build up for cawl.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yes, and that unrepentant part is what makes them great.
However, once your try to add a tragic element to them, it just comes across as a trite attempt at drama
Just imagine a mad scientist who just skinned some guy, covered a wrack with said skin, then ordered the wrack to kick the guy in the nuts repeatedly all whilst saying "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself!", and then at the end of it go "oh, woe is me how I must do these things, for reasons!"
That's what that tragic aspect of DE fluff feels like to me. Its dumb.
You have clearly not had to do anything desperate to survive in your life. Let me be clear, neither have I, but that is a pretty common reaction.
I watched a Vietnam war documentary where a former U.S army soldier talked about having to kill an NVA soldier by drowning him in a small puddle, because his squad was surrounded by NVA but they were hidden in the bush and a gunshot would have given away their position. The man was crying as he described how him and two squadmates held the guy down until he stopped struggling and then stuck him a bunch of times with bayonets afterward to make sure he was dead.
Kelligula wrote: One thing I hate about the lore is the small (but very vocal) part of the fandom that takes it too seriously.
I also hate how one of my favorite factions has fluff that sounds like it was written by an angsty teenager.
you're always going to get that in anything that remotely resembles a nerd culture. star wars, lord of the rings, the comic book universes. etc.
at the end of the day, most of us are adults, enjoying something that could be viewed in some eyes as silly, immature, lame etc. and while I dont think there's anything wrong with enjoying these things, you need to be able to accept that in the end they are only made up worlds/characters invented by people/companies for the purposes of entertainment. Enjoy the fantasy, read the books, but dont waste energy arguing with a randomer on the internet about it.
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Not Online!!! wrote: The Alpha Legion modus operandi, the lack of Agents as playable units, the lack of a explanation how the structure of the AL is after the Heresy. Instead they get abused as a memey plot excuse.
Primaris, i am torn on, would've prefered a bit more build up for cawl.
yeah considering how much the AL have going for them, they seem to have just been left in the dark post heresy. whether this is because some like to have them turned to chaos, and others like to keep their sneaky beaky side, who knows.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yes, and that unrepentant part is what makes them great. However, once your try to add a tragic element to them, it just comes across as a trite attempt at drama Just imagine a mad scientist who just skinned some guy, covered a wrack with said skin, then ordered the wrack to kick the guy in the nuts repeatedly all whilst saying "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself!", and then at the end of it go "oh, woe is me how I must do these things, for reasons!"
That's what that tragic aspect of DE fluff feels like to me. Its dumb.
You have clearly not had to do anything desperate to survive in your life. Let me be clear, neither have I, but that is a pretty common reaction.
I watched a Vietnam war documentary where a former U.S army soldier talked about having to kill an NVA soldier by drowning him in a small puddle, because his squad was surrounded by NVA but they were hidden in the bush and a gunshot would have given away their position. The man was crying as he described how him and two squadmates held the guy down until he stopped struggling and then stuck him a bunch of times with bayonets afterward to make sure he was dead.
No, I understand that people have to do gakky things to survive at times. What separates them from complete psychopaths is that they feel remorse afterwards and don't enjoy doing it. In your very own example you said the soldier was crying. That was guilt. That's a perfectly normal reaction. Dark Eldar do enjoy it and don't feel remorse. Ergo, they are psychopaths and the "tragedy" falls flat.
Writing this up did make me think of how this could be ret-conned to make some "sort of " scientific sense and this is what I came up with:
Space marine aspirants are implanted with a SINGLE organ- the Progenitor gland. This is an autonomous tissue that contains primarch DNA and has been bio-engineered to regulate both itself and the host's body systems. When implanted it is attached behind the sternum (in the place of the old thymus gland), where it wont't get in the way and will be protected. It is linked up to the nervous system and to the blood supply so that it can communicate through both hormonal and neurologic circuits. It contains secretory cells that start to produce all necessary proteins and molecules foreign to the body which will help with growth, and enact all the super-human physiologic adaptations necessary to make the marine resillient. It would have to also be able to integrate specific parts of it's DNA into the host so that new bodily materials like proteins/hormones/structural proteins can be made. (Viruses and bacteria can do this already; incorporating bits of their genetic material into our DNA so that we can make their structural proteins for them. (look up life cysle of HIV virus if curious))
No major surgery to introduce extra organs like lungs/kidneys/poisonous glands, just a robust implanted organ which works the purposely vague science of the 41st millennium. When the marine dies, apothecary sticks his tool into the marine's sternum and extracts the gland. There you have it, nice and simple and purposely vague.
Why on earth didn't they consult a doctor before writing all that detailed gubbins about organs and such?
Or, just be prepared to be vague. If you're not sure about something write less not more.
It's why in general I don't read sci-fi novels - they potentially rely on the author describing a lot of technology which may be completely impossible.
Using a Star Wars example, I'm happy that light sabres exist and are powered by crystals. Now if George Lucas tried to write a detailed technical description of the manufacturing process of a lightsabre it'd just flag up all of the many different ways in which they are impossible.
yeah considering how much the AL have going for them, they seem to have just been left in the dark post heresy. whether this is because some like to have them turned to chaos, and others like to keep their sneaky beaky side, who knows.
I mean you have the only legion to maintain a foothold, permanently outside of the immaterium. You have descriptions of their Elite operatives, yet you don't go into recruiting, organisation, cooperation and not even comunication? (beyond silly abuse of "for the emperor"?)
It's like they would have the perfect starting point for great lore if,IF, well handled, but no, instead they get used as a cheap magic wand to stop the imperium or other enemies just cause: not grimdark (really more grimderp) enough.
It also does not help that AL trait now is one of the most used ones especially for people that still run CSM.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I really like that the Haemonculi are utterly, utterly unrepentant. The eldest of their number are essentially the architects of the fall. They're the living embodiment of the excess of the old Eldar.
And they just don't care. They still wield vast power, and can still do pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want.
Best bit is, I'm not even sure one can say they're actually insane. They seem fully aware of what they're doing. And just don't give a fig. Them over everything else.
Even if they are not repentant for moral reasons, I wonder whether any of them think that "Would I have been even more powerful if the Eldar empire had never fallen and Slaanesh never been born?" Instead of skulking away in the Webway and having to raid, they would have been part of the dominant empire of the galaxy, with the rest of the galaxy prostrate at their feet or posing no credible threat.
But they wouldn't be DE if Slaanesh was never born. They just be your average Eldar.
Writing this up did make me think of how this could be ret-conned to make some "sort of " scientific sense and this is what I came up with:
Space marine aspirants are implanted with a SINGLE organ- the Progenitor gland. This is an autonomous tissue that contains primarch DNA and has been bio-engineered to regulate both itself and the host's body systems. When implanted it is attached behind the sternum (in the place of the old thymus gland), where it wont't get in the way and will be protected. It is linked up to the nervous system and to the blood supply so that it can communicate through both hormonal and neurologic circuits. It contains secretory cells that start to produce all necessary proteins and molecules foreign to the body which will help with growth, and enact all the super-human physiologic adaptations necessary to make the marine resillient. It would have to also be able to integrate specific parts of it's DNA into the host so that new bodily materials like proteins/hormones/structural proteins can be made. (Viruses and bacteria can do this already; incorporating bits of their genetic material into our DNA so that we can make their structural proteins for them. (look up life cysle of HIV virus if curious))
No major surgery to introduce extra organs like lungs/kidneys/poisonous glands, just a robust implanted organ which works the purposely vague science of the 41st millennium. When the marine dies, apothecary sticks his tool into the marine's sternum and extracts the gland. There you have it, nice and simple and purposely vague.
Why on earth didn't they consult a doctor before writing all that detailed gubbins about organs and such?
Or, just be prepared to be vague. If you're not sure about something write less not more.
It's why in general I don't read sci-fi novels - they potentially rely on the author describing a lot of technology which may be completely impossible.
Using a Star Wars example, I'm happy that light sabres exist and are powered by crystals. Now if George Lucas tried to write a detailed technical description of the manufacturing process of a lightsabre it'd just flag up all of the many different ways in which they are impossible.
Probably because a) its just fiction, which is already based on wildly unrealistic subjects and concepts, try explaining Orks with any realism, plus the internet wasn't what it was, they'd have to go to the effort of finding a doctor and interviewing him, plus they'd need more than that, they'd need neuroscientists, biologists geneticists etc.. and b) when they wrote that, the lore was nowhere near as extensive and realistic as it is now.
All space marines start out as regular humans and become genetically engineered super soldiers! This premise is hard to accept because all we know about genetics doesn't allow you to take a fully formed organism (eg a human child) and transform it into something entirety different like a super-human adult marine.
That simply isn't true.
Firstly, a child is not a fully formed organism - that is why its called a child.
Secondly, the technology to edit genes in "fully formed organisms" already exists.
I understand that we're in danger of taking this discussion too seriously and looking a bit silly when we start analyzing science journals to prove our favorite toy soldiers can exist. I'll reply to this just for the curious, but I think this is why I started off with an audible throat clearing about not taking this too seriously.
When I say fully formed organism I mean a human child is a fully formed organism because it is a genetically complete product of his parent's DNA. At that point no more genetic variation should be generated in the the child's own DNA and it's replication should be stable, not accounting for random errors of replication which may cause small mutations which usually are cleared out my host's immune function. In other words as soon as we are formed we are all we are ever going to be in terms of genetic makeup. What you're describing is a developmental stage of the child, but that's a function of genetic expression, not changes in the genome. Puberty and growth happen in stages as the DNA you have from the moment of conception starts to express parts of itself which were previously silenced. This is very different from suddenly incorporating large chunks of foreign genetic material into human DNA>
You are right that genetic therapy has been implemented in some diseases. The article you share discusses using a virus as a vector of introducing a bit of engineered DNA into the host's hepatocytes (liver cells) and the liver using this new bit of DNA to produce new protein (factor 8 in the clotting cascade in this case) This is essentially taking advantage of the virus's reproduction cycle which sneaks its own DNA into human host so that our machinery can be used to make more copies of the virus.
Hemophilia is a bleeding disorder in which factor 8 is deficient and therefore people's blood doesn't clot properly and they bleed/bruise a lot. Well if you insert the viral DNA into a person's own liver cells, and you've previously sneaked the gene for properly functioning factor 8 protein into the virus's genome you're essentially sneakily giving the person a functioning gene and he can now make his own factor 8 and won't be a hemophiliac anymore. This is the theory.
The paper you link did just this and it worked, but the problem is, as they state in the discussion, this is a transient phenomenon; meaning you'e using this new gene only as long as the virus is integrated into the host DNA. As soon as the virus leaves the host DNA the person is back to not being able to make factor 8 and is still hemophiliac. They also note the risk of messing up the host genome if this wasn't a transient event. SO although gene therapy does show promising signs it's eons away from being able to take a gene and cleanly insert it into a fully formed genome. Again I'm not saying we can't imagine the science of the 41st millennium didn't figure this out, I'm just saying they could have stated so.
Pretty much everything regarding Gav Thorpe's work on the Dark Angels due to his obsession with the Fallen and trying to even go for character assassination simply to suit his narratives - along without outright admitting he makes gak up as he goes along instead of trying to apply reason and consequences to things. And his habit for huge retcons in minor books that completely feths up the old lore. He's like a stealthy version of Matt Ward at this point; bad rules, terrible lore, yet people don't pay nearly as much attention to him.
But sentiments stated earlier regarding the Horus Heresy reflect mine as well. Although I don't think the "mystery" of the heresy holds much value, but what is atrocious is the Black Library's either lack of comprehension or complete surrender to corporate greed preventing them from being able to write a competent greek tragedy. Which is what the entire point of the Horus Heresy was, a tragedy. Only now it's one of direction as it's pumped full of worthless filler content that does nothing to further the story or grow characters. The HH is where depth and character development went to die in a hole.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: No, I understand that people have to do gakky things to survive at times. What separates them from complete psychopaths is that they feel remorse afterwards and don't enjoy doing it. In your very own example you said the soldier was crying. That was guilt. That's a perfectly normal reaction.
Dark Eldar do enjoy it and don't feel remorse. Ergo, they are psychopaths and the "tragedy" falls flat.
That seems to be what the writers are going for with the whole "woe is me" angle with the DE. It is extremely possible to enjoy doing something horrible in the moment, and then feeling guilty or even ashamed about it later after it really hits you.
Imagine that if you died, you would be tortured for eternity in the worst ways imaginable. ETERNITY. Take the christian version of hell and ramp it up to 11. Now imagine there was a way to prolong your life indefinitely, INDEFINITELY so that you never had to die. All you had to do was torture a monkey to death. The harder you torture the monkey and the more you enjoy it, the more "time" you get. You would have to keep doing this, forever, but what is that compared to death and what waits after for you? The Dark Eldar have been doing this for so long it has driven them insane as a race, torn between basic empathy and the need to survive and escape "she who thirsts", they start to take pleasure in what they need to do to survive. Pretty fething terrifying and sad to be honest.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: No, I understand that people have to do gakky things to survive at times. What separates them from complete psychopaths is that they feel remorse afterwards and don't enjoy doing it. In your very own example you said the soldier was crying. That was guilt. That's a perfectly normal reaction. Dark Eldar do enjoy it and don't feel remorse. Ergo, they are psychopaths and the "tragedy" falls flat.
That seems to be what the writers are going for with the whole "woe is me" angle with the DE. It is extremely possible to enjoy doing something horrible in the moment, and then feeling guilty or even ashamed about it later after it really hits you.
Imagine that if you died, you would be tortured for eternity in the worst ways imaginable. ETERNITY. Take the christian version of hell and ramp it up to 11. Now imagine there was a way to prolong your life indefinitely, INDEFINITELY so that you never had to die. All you had to do was torture a monkey to death. The harder you torture the monkey and the more you enjoy it, the more "time" you get. You would have to keep doing this, forever, but what is that compared to death and what waits after for you? The Dark Eldar have been doing this for so long it has driven them insane as a race, torn between basic empathy and the need to survive and escape "she who thirsts", they start to take pleasure in what they need to do to survive. Pretty fething terrifying and sad to be honest.
Also you can be tragic and a monster. The tragedy is that the Dark Eldar have degenerated from being a grand and empathetic race that was set to inherit the galaxy - to degenerate barbarians squatting in the remains of their superior ancestors who would look down on them with a mixture of disgust and sorrow. And not only that, but in their degeneracy they have even lost species-cohesion, and instead slit each other's throats over trivial baubles and boasts, likely doomed to a fate of self-induced extinction by their own hand and not Slaanesh's. The last Dark Eldar standing will likely be holding the dagger that killed the other few remaining Dark Eldar.
They are sad and tragic not because they are sympathetic creatures, but because they were once sympathetic creatures, now fallen beyond the means of any (save possibly Ynnead) to redeem them and given in fully to sociopathy. There are still glimmers of hope within their kind (such as one archon who suffered an emotional meltdown when necrons killed his daughter), but it's not enough to save the lot from their chosen fate.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: No, I understand that people have to do gakky things to survive at times. What separates them from complete psychopaths is that they feel remorse afterwards and don't enjoy doing it. In your very own example you said the soldier was crying. That was guilt. That's a perfectly normal reaction. Dark Eldar do enjoy it and don't feel remorse. Ergo, they are psychopaths and the "tragedy" falls flat.
That seems to be what the writers are going for with the whole "woe is me" angle with the DE. It is extremely possible to enjoy doing something horrible in the moment, and then feeling guilty or even ashamed about it later after it really hits you.
Imagine that if you died, you would be tortured for eternity in the worst ways imaginable. ETERNITY. Take the christian version of hell and ramp it up to 11. Now imagine there was a way to prolong your life indefinitely, INDEFINITELY so that you never had to die. All you had to do was torture a monkey to death. The harder you torture the monkey and the more you enjoy it, the more "time" you get. You would have to keep doing this, forever, but what is that compared to death and what waits after for you? The Dark Eldar have been doing this for so long it has driven them insane as a race, torn between basic empathy and the need to survive and escape "she who thirsts", they start to take pleasure in what they need to do to survive. Pretty fething terrifying and sad to be honest.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: No, I understand that people have to do gakky things to survive at times. What separates them from complete psychopaths is that they feel remorse afterwards and don't enjoy doing it. In your very own example you said the soldier was crying. That was guilt. That's a perfectly normal reaction. Dark Eldar do enjoy it and don't feel remorse. Ergo, they are psychopaths and the "tragedy" falls flat.
That seems to be what the writers are going for with the whole "woe is me" angle with the DE. It is extremely possible to enjoy doing something horrible in the moment, and then feeling guilty or even ashamed about it later after it really hits you.
Imagine that if you died, you would be tortured for eternity in the worst ways imaginable. ETERNITY. Take the christian version of hell and ramp it up to 11. Now imagine there was a way to prolong your life indefinitely, INDEFINITELY so that you never had to die. All you had to do was torture a monkey to death. The harder you torture the monkey and the more you enjoy it, the more "time" you get. You would have to keep doing this, forever, but what is that compared to death and what waits after for you? The Dark Eldar have been doing this for so long it has driven them insane as a race, torn between basic empathy and the need to survive and escape "she who thirsts", they start to take pleasure in what they need to do to survive. Pretty fething terrifying and sad to be honest.
Also you can be tragic and a monster. The tragedy is that the Dark Eldar have degenerated from being a grand and empathetic race that was set to inherit the galaxy - to degenerate barbarians squatting in the remains of their superior ancestors who would look down on them with a mixture of disgust and sorrow. And not only that, but in their degeneracy they have even lost species-cohesion, and instead slit each other's throats over trivial baubles and boasts, likely doomed to a fate of self-induced extinction by their own hand and not Slaanesh's. The last Dark Eldar standing will likely be holding the dagger that killed the other few remaining Dark Eldar.
They are sad and tragic not because they are sympathetic creatures, but because they were once sympathetic creatures, now fallen beyond the means of any (save possibly Ynnead) to redeem them and given in fully to sociopathy. There are still glimmers of hope within their kind (such as one archon who suffered an emotional meltdown when necrons killed his daughter), but it's not enough to save the lot from their chosen fate.
Those are some pretty good points and I can understand that approach. Do they provide context though? It would be pretty effective from a story telling standpoint if you can see the gradual decrease into depraved insanity. Like, in the first century the Dark Eldar don't really like doing it, a century later they still don't like it but are more open to it than they used to be, and a century after that they are super into nailing babies onto trees or something. I suppose my problem boils down to a lack of comparison
Wyzilla wrote: Pretty much everything regarding Gav Thorpe's work on the Dark Angels due to his obsession with the Fallen and trying to even go for character assassination simply to suit his narratives - along without outright admitting he makes gak up as he goes along instead of trying to apply reason and consequences to things. And his habit for huge retcons in minor books that completely feths up the old lore. He's like a stealthy version of Matt Ward at this point; bad rules, terrible lore, yet people don't pay nearly as much attention to him.
But sentiments stated earlier regarding the Horus Heresy reflect mine as well. Although I don't think the "mystery" of the heresy holds much value, but what is atrocious is the Black Library's either lack of comprehension or complete surrender to corporate greed preventing them from being able to write a competent greek tragedy. Which is what the entire point of the Horus Heresy was, a tragedy. Only now it's one of direction as it's pumped full of worthless filler content that does nothing to further the story or grow characters. The HH is where depth and character development went to die in a hole.
To be fair though, its because GW don't get involved in planning the HH novel series, the writers pretty much have free license to write what they want. You see this a lot, take the Ruinstorm, that was written without thought that the Ultramrines would be stuck in Ultramar and therefore their story arc would be stagnated, so they came up with the Pharos idea, if GW actually planed anything the Ruinstorm would happen near the end of the series thereby trapping the Ultramarines, So Guilliman goes in and out of Ultramar and before the time of the Siege he goes back to Ultramar and the Pharos just becomes broken and he's stuck there.
Wyzilla wrote: Pretty much everything regarding Gav Thorpe's work on the Dark Angels due to his obsession with the Fallen and trying to even go for character assassination simply to suit his narratives - along without outright admitting he makes gak up as he goes along instead of trying to apply reason and consequences to things. And his habit for huge retcons in minor books that completely feths up the old lore. He's like a stealthy version of Matt Ward at this point; bad rules, terrible lore, yet people don't pay nearly as much attention to him.
But sentiments stated earlier regarding the Horus Heresy reflect mine as well. Although I don't think the "mystery" of the heresy holds much value, but what is atrocious is the Black Library's either lack of comprehension or complete surrender to corporate greed preventing them from being able to write a competent greek tragedy. Which is what the entire point of the Horus Heresy was, a tragedy. Only now it's one of direction as it's pumped full of worthless filler content that does nothing to further the story or grow characters. The HH is where depth and character development went to die in a hole.
To be fair though, its because GW don't get involved in planning the HH novel series, the writers pretty much have free license to write what they want. You see this a lot, take the Ruinstorm, that was written without thought that the Ultramrines would be stuck in Ultramar and therefore their story arc would be stagnated, so they came up with the Pharos idea, if GW actually planed anything the Ruinstorm would happen near the end of the series thereby trapping the Ultramarines, So Guilliman goes in and out of Ultramar and before the time of the Siege he goes back to Ultramar and the Pharos just becomes broken and he's stuck there.
The issue is that firstly multiple authors working on a single story is always a horrific idea that will lead to an immense clusterfeth of inconsistent nonsense and radical changes in character behavior (look at any major comic series, which has far more money to throw at the problem than GW yet still fails spectacularly), and if you absolutely must have multiple authors working on one thing there must be precise and authoritarian editors keeping everything in line. Probably the worst example of this is at the start of the Horus Heresy itself where Abnetts writes Horus as this fantastic, sensitive character. Who then radically switches emotional gears under McNeil for no damn reason that makes it impossible to stay immersed or care about any characters at all when they never emotionally act in the same manner. This gets worse the more authors that are brought on board, until some primarchs come off as downright schizophrenic. And as I mentioned in a prior thread, the HH doesn't even make sense because STARTING with Horus' fall is fething up the start of the series itself. Horus' Fall in Greek structure should be the CLIMAX of the entire Horus Heresy with the Battle of Terra merely being the conclusion of the fall. The series starting off with the Fall to Chaos puts everything out of thematic beat, and causes filler content to exist in the first point. There would be no need for Secundus if the series started off only 100 years into the Great Crusade and spent 75% of the Horus Heresy in the Great Crusade to build up the tragedy of Horus' fall.
I agree that there is a lot of cram in the HH series. I think each divergent arc (Shattered legions, The Fallen, Raven guard biology experiments, Fulgrims and Perturabos quest etc) should only have a novels worth to cover the information, with the series focusing on the main story arc. they need to stop making books that are collections of short stories aswell. keep it a novel series and cull some of the chaff.
there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
Have you read Kharn; The Red Path and if so what did you think of it compared to other BL books?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
Have you read Kharn; The Red Path and if so what did you think of it compared to other BL books?
I havent. I've read the free short story which I believe is the start of it, 'Furnaces of Haeleon' which was ok, but didnt give away much. I want to read it but I'm torn as to whether to pick up that or read Eater of Worlds, which has better reviews online, first. I loved Kharns portrayal in betrayer, and hope he isn't ruined in the new books. I've got a lot to get through though. my mrs has got me Lords of Silence for christmas, and I wouldnt mind reading the word bearers trilogy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yes, and that unrepentant part is what makes them great.
However, once your try to add a tragic element to them, it just comes across as a trite attempt at drama
Just imagine a mad scientist who just skinned some guy, covered a wrack with said skin, then ordered the wrack to kick the guy in the nuts repeatedly all whilst saying "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself!", and then at the end of it go "oh, woe is me how I must do these things, for reasons!"
That's what that tragic aspect of DE fluff feels like to me. Its dumb.
I see it as them being deliberately melodramatic about things. Imagine the above scenario, but the 'oh woe is me' thing being hammed up, entirely for the Haemonculi's own personal amusement, like some awful drama queen.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
Have you read Kharn; The Red Path and if so what did you think of it compared to other BL books?
I havent. I've read the free short story which I believe is the start of it, 'Furnaces of Haeleon' which was ok, but didnt give away much. I want to read it but I'm torn as to whether to pick up that or read Eater of Worlds, which has better reviews online, first. I loved Kharns portrayal in betrayer, and hope he isn't ruined in the new books. I've got a lot to get through though. my mrs has got me Lords of Silence for christmas, and I wouldnt mind reading the word bearers trilogy.
Without giving away too much, I'd go for Eater of Worlds.
There isn't much in The Red Path apart from a lot of Kharn hacking people apart. I know that's kind of his thing but you can have too much of a good thing and the way it's written didn't really do much to convince me of how scarily effective in combat Kharn is. To be honest, in a lot of the combat scenes (so that's a lot of the book) I couldn't imagine from the descriptions what was actually going on.
I've liked the bits of writing I've seen from ADB (that 'maybe, maybe' post he wrote for Bolter and Chainsword is just a perfect imagining of the life of a Chaos Space Marine) so I have high hopes for Betrayer, however.
Ratius wrote: Yup, HH has been bloated for years with side arcs/plots and some genuinely gak ideas (oh hello Pharos).
At least they are wrapping it up now.
I actually liked Pharos as a concept. The warp pretty much requires some manner of navigation, and it makes sense some species would build what is effectively a lighthouse so they can get around.
Much more sane than hoping for navigator mutations and eating souls to maintain a super-saiyan aura bubble.
I understand that we're in danger of taking this discussion too seriously and looking a bit silly when we start analyzing science journals to prove our favorite toy soldiers can exist. I'll reply to this just for the curious, but I think this is why I started off with an audible throat clearing about not taking this too seriously.
That is always a danger.
To me, it just doesn't seem that far fetched. We even have organisms living here on earth that undergo far more extreme tranformations than a space marine. Fx butterflies.
Then again, I might be damaged by my occupation.
At that point no more genetic variation should be generated in the the child's own DNA and it's replication should be stable, not accounting for random errors of replication which may cause small mutations which usually are cleared out my host's immune function. In other words as soon as we are formed we are all we are ever going to be in terms of genetic makeup. What you're describing is a developmental stage of the child, but that's a function of genetic expression, not changes in the genome. Puberty and growth happen in stages as the DNA you have from the moment of conception starts to express parts of itself which were previously silenced. This is very different from suddenly incorporating large chunks of foreign genetic material into human DNA>
So by your definition, an unborn child is a fully formed organism simply because no more genetic recombination occurs within its genome? Or a fertilized egg?
You are right that genetic therapy has been implemented in some diseases. The article you share discusses using a virus as a vector of introducing a bit of engineered DNA into the host's hepatocytes (liver cells) and the liver using this new bit of DNA to produce new protein (factor 8 in the clotting cascade in this case) This is essentially taking advantage of the virus's reproduction cycle which sneaks its own DNA into human host so that our machinery can be used to make more copies of the virus.
Hemophilia is a bleeding disorder in which factor 8 is deficient and therefore people's blood doesn't clot properly and they bleed/bruise a lot. Well if you insert the viral DNA into a person's own liver cells, and you've previously sneaked the gene for properly functioning factor 8 protein into the virus's genome you're essentially sneakily giving the person a functioning gene and he can now make his own factor 8 and won't be a hemophiliac anymore. This is the theory.
I am fully aware of that.
The paper you link did just this and it worked, but the problem is, as they state in the discussion, this is a transient phenomenon; meaning you'e using this new gene only as long as the virus is integrated into the host DNA. As soon as the virus leaves the host DNA the person is back to not being able to make factor 8 and is still hemophiliac. They also note the risk of messing up the host genome if this wasn't a transient event. SO although gene therapy does show promising signs it's eons away from being able to take a gene and cleanly insert it into a fully formed genome. Again I'm not saying we can't imagine the science of the 41st millennium didn't figure this out, I'm just saying they could have stated so.
The article refferencs 3 different studies. The patients from the 2011 study still have high efficacy. Hepatocytes turn over is slow, so hopefully they have many medicine-free years to come.
Grimskul wrote: Not a fan of GW's issue with number scaling regarding how small chapters are. 1000'sh (not including command staff, support guys, etc.) guys were always hard to take seriously as a force capable of doing much on most planets, much less just a company of 100 marines. Makes them come off as more "elite", but also harder to explain losses or how they can even attempt to pacify/occupy areas. Definitely an instance of just adding a few zeroes to the number to make it more feasible. That or make it explicit they have an entire army of serfs with them at all times handling the logistics of these things.
I think that's a deliberate thing though. Within the 40k setting are supposed to be an elite force, used for specific purposes. Some of the Imperial Armour books paint a great job of the real military-esque examples, like in IA3 (the Taros Campaign) where the Raptors carry out an action to rescue the planetary governor, and get in and out before the Tau can capture them, or when some assault troops come down from orbit to take out some AA installations. The actual ground-war, large scale battles, and occupation you describe could never be carried out by Marines as they just don't have the numbers and instead are undertaken by the guard.
They did at one time, during the Great Crusade, they had the hundreds of thousands of troops, which as you say are the quantities necessary to take a world, to garrison areas, protect supply lines etc. But the events of the Heresy showed that it wasn't advisable to have all of that power held in one place, and the marines were effectively stripped of concentrated power. So now they can only ever be the knife-edge of a military action, where it absolutely must succeed and you need your very best soldiery taking part.
The problem is that in the game setting, everyone and their wife wants to play Space Marines - so you see a massively disproportionate amount of them on the tabletop. If we were to have a ratio of players that matched the volumes of those troop types as found in the 40k universe, you'd probably have a thousand or so Guard players for every Marine player!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: No, I understand that people have to do gakky things to survive at times. What separates them from complete psychopaths is that they feel remorse afterwards and don't enjoy doing it. In your very own example you said the soldier was crying. That was guilt. That's a perfectly normal reaction.
Dark Eldar do enjoy it and don't feel remorse. Ergo, they are psychopaths and the "tragedy" falls flat.
That seems to be what the writers are going for with the whole "woe is me" angle with the DE. It is extremely possible to enjoy doing something horrible in the moment, and then feeling guilty or even ashamed about it later after it really hits you.
Imagine that if you died, you would be tortured for eternity in the worst ways imaginable. ETERNITY. Take the christian version of hell and ramp it up to 11. Now imagine there was a way to prolong your life indefinitely, INDEFINITELY so that you never had to die. All you had to do was torture a monkey to death. The harder you torture the monkey and the more you enjoy it, the more "time" you get. You would have to keep doing this, forever, but what is that compared to death and what waits after for you? The Dark Eldar have been doing this for so long it has driven them insane as a race, torn between basic empathy and the need to survive and escape "she who thirsts", they start to take pleasure in what they need to do to survive. Pretty fething terrifying and sad to be honest.
Also you can be tragic and a monster. The tragedy is that the Dark Eldar have degenerated from being a grand and empathetic race that was set to inherit the galaxy - to degenerate barbarians squatting in the remains of their superior ancestors who would look down on them with a mixture of disgust and sorrow. And not only that, but in their degeneracy they have even lost species-cohesion, and instead slit each other's throats over trivial baubles and boasts, likely doomed to a fate of self-induced extinction by their own hand and not Slaanesh's. The last Dark Eldar standing will likely be holding the dagger that killed the other few remaining Dark Eldar.
They are sad and tragic not because they are sympathetic creatures, but because they were once sympathetic creatures, now fallen beyond the means of any (save possibly Ynnead) to redeem them and given in fully to sociopathy. There are still glimmers of hope within their kind (such as one archon who suffered an emotional meltdown when necrons killed his daughter), but it's not enough to save the lot from their chosen fate.
It kind of bothers me that they are not in decline. As it stand now, they chose the dark route without consequence.
Andersp90 wrote: It kind of bothers me that they are not in decline. As it stand now, they chose the dark route without consequence.
- ignoring khaine's gate, ofc.
That bothers me a lot too. There used to be this quote in the 3rd eddition DE Codex: ''I dance in blood toward the precipice of annihilation.''. I thought it represented perfectly their culture and their knowledge that ultimately, they will all die, that they can't delay the inevitable.
On subject of numbers and Space Marines, I'm also bothered by the fact there is only one Apothecary per Company. That wouldn't be such a big issue, but they sometime deploy a single squad or a demi-company. What if a Marine needs medical assistance in those situations? How do they retrieve the geneseed of fallen brothers? It really should be up to one per squad (plus it could also help on the tabletop).
Can't say I'm too fond of the Primaris lore... or the new lore regarding Guilliman's return.
Guilliman showing up out of nowhere, putting himself in charge, and introducing new tech out of nowhere seems like it could shake up elements of the Imperium.
For example, I could imagine a situation where the Ecclesiarchy and parts of the Administratum turn around and say "You're an imposter! This is not the Imperial Truth! What you're suggesting is heresy!" and go into crusade mode, starting a civil war within the Imperium. Certain guard regiments would probably also fall into line with the Ecclesiarchy, so the fight would by no means be a small one. As an added bonus, certain forge world's would probably go into combat mode over new, potentially non-STC technologies.
As a pet gripe, I dislike the introduction of the primaris. GW had an ideal origin in the Sons of Antaeus and the high lords ongoing heretical attempts to improve the geneseed in the past 10000 years through experiments like the cursed founding.
Would have given them better grounding in the universe and scope for much broader strife and suspicion.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
Have you read Kharn; The Red Path and if so what did you think of it compared to other BL books?
I havent. I've read the free short story which I believe is the start of it, 'Furnaces of Haeleon' which was ok, but didnt give away much. I want to read it but I'm torn as to whether to pick up that or read Eater of Worlds, which has better reviews online, first. I loved Kharns portrayal in betrayer, and hope he isn't ruined in the new books. I've got a lot to get through though. my mrs has got me Lords of Silence for christmas, and I wouldnt mind reading the word bearers trilogy.
Without giving away too much, I'd go for Eater of Worlds.
There isn't much in The Red Path apart from a lot of Kharn hacking people apart. I know that's kind of his thing but you can have too much of a good thing and the way it's written didn't really do much to convince me of how scarily effective in combat Kharn is. To be honest, in a lot of the combat scenes (so that's a lot of the book) I couldn't imagine from the descriptions what was actually going on.
I've liked the bits of writing I've seen from ADB (that 'maybe, maybe' post he wrote for Bolter and Chainsword is just a perfect imagining of the life of a Chaos Space Marine) so I have high hopes for Betrayer, however.
That's what I was thinking to be fair. Betrayer is a fantastic read. Thoroughly recommend. Tells a lot about the state of the world eaters, and their reluctant leader. Pre berserker kharn has a lot of depth to his character, that's why I'm hoping post heresy kharn isn't just a mindless lunatic.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
Have you read Kharn; The Red Path and if so what did you think of it compared to other BL books?
The red path was an incredible novel, describes Kharn so well.
Insectum7 wrote: In 4th edition you actually could field Apothecaries as Sergeants to squads.
I tend to think in other circumstances marines have some basic medical training and equipment to help deal with wounds.
I think that is one of the points about the whole metahuman thing. Their bodies are designed to take care of any problems (with some help from their armor) without help. Fx the larramans Organ etc.
Also, if a squad is send behind enemy lines on a special mission (pretty much every sm mission ever ), and a battle-brother gets so badly injured, that he he requires an apo.. well, hes prob ****** anyway.
Andersp90 wrote: It kind of bothers me that they are not in decline. As it stand now, they chose the dark route without consequence.
- ignoring khaine's gate, ofc.
That bothers me a lot too. There used to be this quote in the 3rd eddition DE Codex: ''I dance in blood toward the precipice of annihilation.''. I thought it represented perfectly their culture and their knowledge that ultimately, they will all die, that they can't delay the inevitable.
Ye, it seems pretty stupid.
But I guess khaines gate breaking fixed it somewhat - just not the way I would have liked.
Insectum7 wrote: In 4th edition you actually could field Apothecaries as Sergeants to squads.
I tend to think in other circumstances marines have some basic medical training and equipment to help deal with wounds.
I believe that this is stated in the lore. I have read multiple times about non-apothecary marines retrieving geneseed. Every modern day soldier is given basic first aid as part of training, it makes sense that 40k marines would be too.
Also the apothecarion is much larger than most people think because about half of it isn't counted as there are both company-assigned apothecaries and the apothecarion marine staff itself, which are different things.
I dislike how the jump from the 4th Edition Eldar codex to the 6th Edition codex forced Eldar and Dark Eldar to be willing allies or coming to each other's aid out of the blue. It ruins the whole thing about how the Craftworlders left the rest of their race to debase themselves before the fall. I've grown used to it now but I'm still a bit salty about that.
Wyzilla wrote: Also the apothecarion is much larger than most people think because about half of it isn't counted as there are both company-assigned apothecaries and the apothecarion marine staff itself, which are different things.
..which still only leaves one apo pr company in the field.
Insectum7 wrote: In 4th edition you actually could field Apothecaries as Sergeants to squads.
I tend to think in other circumstances marines have some basic medical training and equipment to help deal with wounds.
Every modern day soldier is given basic first aid as part of training, it makes sense that 40k marines would be too.
I have never seen it mentioned in the lore. Neither in any codex nor in any BL novel.
And honestly what are they supposed to do? Modern day soldiers are trained in stopping bleeding and giving pain relief. An astartes metahuman physiology and armor already sees to both of those problems.
They wouldn't even be able to get to the problem since there is a thick layer of power armor in the way.
I know this was said already, but I also dislike the Dark Angels fluff. I love their look and grim demeanor, but Gav's writing and focus on the Fallen isn't for me.
Nid fluff is also hit or miss. These creatures are so powerful and dangerous... but they lose every major campaign. The worst part is they're always presented at almost End Times level strength that them winning anything major would really shake the setting up. So it's almost like they always have to lose in order to prevent any real significant changes.
Kelligula wrote: I know this was said already, but I also dislike the Dark Angels fluff. I love their look and grim demeanor, but Gav's writing and focus on the Fallen isn't for me.
Nid fluff is also hit or miss. These creatures are so powerful and dangerous... but they lose every major campaign. The worst part is they're always presented at almost End Times level strength that them winning anything major would really shake the setting up. So it's almost like they always have to lose in order to prevent any real significant changes.
It's stated in the fluff that that hive fleet behemoth and kraken were little more than reconnaissance forces, sent to learn the weaknesses of the hive minds new prey.
Leviathan were steamrolling everything until the cicatrix maledictum was birthed.
All space marines start out as regular humans and become genetically engineered super soldiers! This premise is hard to accept because all we know about genetics doesn't allow you to take a fully formed organism (eg a human child) and transform it into something entirety different like a super-human adult marine.
That simply isn't true.
Firstly, a child is not a fully formed organism - that is why its called a child.
Secondly, the technology to edit genes in "fully formed organisms" already exists.
I understand that we're in danger of taking this discussion too seriously and looking a bit silly when we start analyzing science journals to prove our favorite toy soldiers can exist. I'll reply to this just for the curious, but I think this is why I started off with an audible throat clearing about not taking this too seriously.
When I say fully formed organism I mean a human child is a fully formed organism because it is a genetically complete product of his parent's DNA. At that point no more genetic variation should be generated in the the child's own DNA and it's replication should be stable, not accounting for random errors of replication which may cause small mutations which usually are cleared out my host's immune function. In other words as soon as we are formed we are all we are ever going to be in terms of genetic makeup. What you're describing is a developmental stage of the child, but that's a function of genetic expression, not changes in the genome. Puberty and growth happen in stages as the DNA you have from the moment of conception starts to express parts of itself which were previously silenced. This is very different from suddenly incorporating large chunks of foreign genetic material into human DNA>
You are right that genetic therapy has been implemented in some diseases. The article you share discusses using a virus as a vector of introducing a bit of engineered DNA into the host's hepatocytes (liver cells) and the liver using this new bit of DNA to produce new protein (factor 8 in the clotting cascade in this case) This is essentially taking advantage of the virus's reproduction cycle which sneaks its own DNA into human host so that our machinery can be used to make more copies of the virus.
Hemophilia is a bleeding disorder in which factor 8 is deficient and therefore people's blood doesn't clot properly and they bleed/bruise a lot. Well if you insert the viral DNA into a person's own liver cells, and you've previously sneaked the gene for properly functioning factor 8 protein into the virus's genome you're essentially sneakily giving the person a functioning gene and he can now make his own factor 8 and won't be a hemophiliac anymore. This is the theory.
The paper you link did just this and it worked, but the problem is, as they state in the discussion, this is a transient phenomenon; meaning you'e using this new gene only as long as the virus is integrated into the host DNA. As soon as the virus leaves the host DNA the person is back to not being able to make factor 8 and is still hemophiliac. They also note the risk of messing up the host genome if this wasn't a transient event. SO although gene therapy does show promising signs it's eons away from being able to take a gene and cleanly insert it into a fully formed genome. Again I'm not saying we can't imagine the science of the 41st millennium didn't figure this out, I'm just saying they could have stated so.
You can put organs from one person into another, and we're not that far off from growing organs on demand - either within a donor cytoskeleton or in modified animals that produce donor specific human organs (we've done mouse to rat and pig to slightly different pig). Nobody wants the marine to reproduce naturally, so we don't even need to change all the genes - just the ones in the cloned organs we implant. Lets also not forget that adult humans regularly edit their own DNA in specific areas to produce specific immune and olfactory cells - plus there is epigenetics on top of that, where environmental factors and change gene expression in an way that can be inherited. Human genetics is pretty plastic even before you add in 30,000 years of mucking about with it.
Cases like the space wolves might even actually be the norm, Astartes recruitment worlds are aimed at finding feral worlds that are the collapsed remains of a colony whose ancestors had come from an era where a certain amount of genetic plasticity was added into the prospective colonists, in case you needed to add ammonia resistance, or switch to using an alternative vitamin due to local deficiencies. The Terran process takes a lot longer, but once you've got access to the Plug and Play biology of worlds founded during a certain era, then swap in your geneseed and get implanting! Long as they've not gone too far down one route (Ogryns, Felids), you'll get a reasonable acceptance rate.
CRISPR/Cas9 is likely the more effective method of gene therapies now, rather than retroviruses too. The very properties that make the retroviruses transient (it's not the virus leaving, it's it being edited out) form the machinery that you use to edit the genome - definitely the kind of tech that lends itself to adding a few [INSERT GENE HERE] motifs into a prospective colonist knowing you're going to have to adapt them a bit to local conditions.
All space marines start out as regular humans and become genetically engineered super soldiers! This premise is hard to accept because all we know about genetics doesn't allow you to take a fully formed organism (eg a human child) and transform it into something entirety different like a super-human adult marine.
That simply isn't true.
Firstly, a child is not a fully formed organism - that is why its called a child.
Secondly, the technology to edit genes in "fully formed organisms" already exists.
I understand that we're in danger of taking this discussion too seriously and looking a bit silly when we start analyzing science journals to prove our favorite toy soldiers can exist. I'll reply to this just for the curious, but I think this is why I started off with an audible throat clearing about not taking this too seriously.
When I say fully formed organism I mean a human child is a fully formed organism because it is a genetically complete product of his parent's DNA. At that point no more genetic variation should be generated in the the child's own DNA and it's replication should be stable, not accounting for random errors of replication which may cause small mutations which usually are cleared out my host's immune function. In other words as soon as we are formed we are all we are ever going to be in terms of genetic makeup. What you're describing is a developmental stage of the child, but that's a function of genetic expression, not changes in the genome. Puberty and growth happen in stages as the DNA you have from the moment of conception starts to express parts of itself which were previously silenced. This is very different from suddenly incorporating large chunks of foreign genetic material into human DNA>
You are right that genetic therapy has been implemented in some diseases. The article you share discusses using a virus as a vector of introducing a bit of engineered DNA into the host's hepatocytes (liver cells) and the liver using this new bit of DNA to produce new protein (factor 8 in the clotting cascade in this case) This is essentially taking advantage of the virus's reproduction cycle which sneaks its own DNA into human host so that our machinery can be used to make more copies of the virus.
Hemophilia is a bleeding disorder in which factor 8 is deficient and therefore people's blood doesn't clot properly and they bleed/bruise a lot. Well if you insert the viral DNA into a person's own liver cells, and you've previously sneaked the gene for properly functioning factor 8 protein into the virus's genome you're essentially sneakily giving the person a functioning gene and he can now make his own factor 8 and won't be a hemophiliac anymore. This is the theory.
The paper you link did just this and it worked, but the problem is, as they state in the discussion, this is a transient phenomenon; meaning you'e using this new gene only as long as the virus is integrated into the host DNA. As soon as the virus leaves the host DNA the person is back to not being able to make factor 8 and is still hemophiliac. They also note the risk of messing up the host genome if this wasn't a transient event. SO although gene therapy does show promising signs it's eons away from being able to take a gene and cleanly insert it into a fully formed genome. Again I'm not saying we can't imagine the science of the 41st millennium didn't figure this out, I'm just saying they could have stated so.
Lets also not forget that adult humans regularly edit their own DNA in specific areas to produce specific immune and olfactory cells
Cells can change the expression of different genes. They do not edit the genome.
CRISPR/Cas9 is likely the more effective method of gene therapies now, rather than retroviruses too. The very properties that make the retroviruses transient (it's not the virus leaving, it's it being edited out) form the machinery that you use to edit the genome - definitely the kind of tech that lends itself to adding a few [INSERT GENE HERE] motifs into a prospective colonist knowing you're going to have to adapt them a bit to local conditions.
1. Retroviruses are NOT transient. HIV fx is a retrovirus. It can be treated - not cured.
2. The study I linked to used an adeno-associated virus. I dosent edit anything (which it is why it's transient). That is also what makes it safer than CRISPR/Cas9.
Immune cells (and some olfactory sensors) actually do edit their own genomes. It's how the adaptive immune system works - there's a few genes that have a 'shuffle and randomise this bit' section that kicks in when they reproduce.
Total number of possibilities is supposed to be around one elephants worth (the SI unit of vague biology facts).
queen_annes_revenge wrote: there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
Have you read Kharn; The Red Path and if so what did you think of it compared to other BL books?
I havent. I've read the free short story which I believe is the start of it, 'Furnaces of Haeleon' which was ok, but didnt give away much. I want to read it but I'm torn as to whether to pick up that or read Eater of Worlds, which has better reviews online, first. I loved Kharns portrayal in betrayer, and hope he isn't ruined in the new books. I've got a lot to get through though. my mrs has got me Lords of Silence for christmas, and I wouldnt mind reading the word bearers trilogy.
Without giving away too much, I'd go for Eater of Worlds.
There isn't much in The Red Path apart from a lot of Kharn hacking people apart. I know that's kind of his thing but you can have too much of a good thing and the way it's written didn't really do much to convince me of how scarily effective in combat Kharn is. To be honest, in a lot of the combat scenes (so that's a lot of the book) I couldn't imagine from the descriptions what was actually going on.
I've liked the bits of writing I've seen from ADB (that 'maybe, maybe' post he wrote for Bolter and Chainsword is just a perfect imagining of the life of a Chaos Space Marine) so I have high hopes for Betrayer, however.
I don't like a lot of the BL books, especially the 40k stuff. Storm of Iron (about the Iron Warriors) was cool and so was Titanicus (about the titans). The Space Wolf books about Ragnar were fun many years ago but I doubt they hold up.
Now there's a few HH books that I liked a lot. "Mechanicum" was about titans and the politics of Mars. The first three were about the fall of Horus and were good IIRC (it's been 10 years or something). Now with that said "Legion" was awesome, "Thousand Sons" was great, and the style of "Prospero Burns" was a really cool idea [hint: watch the movie "The 13th Warrior" first].
Automatically Appended Next Post:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: there have been some decent books though. I enjoyed the first heretic, and betrayer. I'll probably check out the novels featuring blood angel, dark angels/fallen, and death guard too.
I had really high hopes for the Dark Angels books because I have big Deathwing army but they were, in my opinion, really poor. The first Dark Angel book started out well on Caliban pre discovery but then I thought they went downhill fast. The first few books with the battle of Istvaan were a fun read but the whole HH series is waaaaay too bloated and so many books were published just to make money rather than really add to the story.
Tastyfish wrote: Immune cells (and some olfactory sensors) actually do edit their own genomes. It's how the adaptive immune system works - there's a few genes that have a 'shuffle and randomise this bit' section that kicks in when they reproduce.
Total number of possibilities is supposed to be around one elephants worth (the SI unit of vague biology facts).
Yes, that is somatic reombination which occurs during the proliferation of lymphocytes.
I guess you could call that editing in layman's terms.
Not offhand. But there was multiple references over the course of many BL novels featuring marines. Even if you don't believe that regular marines can remove geneseed themselves, they can still carry the corpse back to base where they can find someone who can.
I have never seen it mentioned in the lore. Neither in any codex nor in any BL novel.
And honestly what are they supposed to do? Modern day soldiers are trained in stopping bleeding and giving pain relief. An astartes metahuman physiology and armor already sees to both of those problems.
They wouldn't even be able to get to the problem since there is a thick layer of power armor in the way.
Uhh... are you serious? You do realize that power armor is made to be removable right?
I find it fantastical and non-believeable that Space Marines don't know any kind of field medicine. I mean, they also regularly fight alongside human troops as well so that kind of thing is valuable to know and takes what? Like a month tops to teach that kind of thing?
"Help, brother Krytus! I have been shot! It has breached my armor and damaged my hearts!"... "Sorry, brother Galt! I know not the arcane mysteries of sutures, nor cauterization, nor any kind of primary battlefield medicine, and so I shall stand here and watch dispassionately as you slowly succumb to your wound!"... "Alas!".
Not offhand. But there was multiple references over the course of many BL novels featuring marines. Even if you don't believe that regular marines can remove geneseed themselves, they can still carry the corpse back to base where they can find someone who can.
I have never seen it mentioned in the lore. Neither in any codex nor in any BL novel.
And honestly what are they supposed to do? Modern day soldiers are trained in stopping bleeding and giving pain relief. An astartes metahuman physiology and armor already sees to both of those problems.
They wouldn't even be able to get to the problem since there is a thick layer of power armor in the way.
Uhh... are you serious? You do realize that power armor is made to be removable right?
I find it much more fantastical and non-believeable that Space Marines don't know any kind of field medicine, then that they do.
"Help, brother Krytus! I have been shot! It has breached my armor and damaged my hearts!"... "Sorry, brother Galt! I know not the arcane mysteries of sutures, nor cauterization, nor any kind of primary battlefield medicine, and so I shall stand here and watch dispassionately as you slowly succumb to your wound!"... "Alas!".
They actually don't know anything about the duties of an Apothecary, Kharn Eater of Worlds shows that, they basically had one Apothecary left who was training a human and after that the human took over and she became invaluable because no one else had the foggiest clue about how to mend Astartes.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: They actually don't know anything about the duties of an Apothecary, Kharn Eater of Worlds shows that, they basically had one Apothecary left who was training a human and after that the human took over and she became invaluable because no one else had the foggiest clue about how to mend Astartes.
We aren't talking about surgery or anything complex. But a Space Marine should know how to cauterize a wound or do basic CPR. Or even how to retrieve geneseed as you can just cut it out of the gland on the neck with a combat knife.
We aren't talking about surgery or anything complex. But a Space Marine should know how to cauterize a wound or do basic CPR. Or even how to retrieve geneseed as you can just cut it out of the gland on the neck with a combat knife.
Are you mad!! Applying the sacred and blessed plaster without the proper ministration and prayer to its indominable machine spirit will make its removal atrociously painful. That's why there is a large carnivorous lizard on it; to warn you of the stinging bite of its wrath! this is far too complex for the intellect of a simple Space Marine.
Not offhand. But there was multiple references over the course of many BL novels featuring marines. Even if you don't believe that regular marines can remove geneseed themselves, they can still carry the corpse back to base where they can find someone who can.
True.
Uhh... are you serious? You do realize that power armor is made to be removable right?
Weeelllll you see, power armor is not exactly "click-on-click-off". Unless you happen to have a tech priest in the squad, it aint going nowhere. Why do you think the apothecaryes have a small chainsaw and drill attached to their arm?
I find it fantastical and non-believeable that Space Marines don't know any kind of field medicine. I mean, they also regularly fight alongside human troops as well so that kind of thing is valuable to know and takes what? Like a month tops to teach that kind of thing?
Yep, a loving and caring astartes giving a stricken guardsman CPR. That is totally a thing.
Wyzilla wrote: Also the apothecarion is much larger than most people think because about half of it isn't counted as there are both company-assigned apothecaries and the apothecarion marine staff itself, which are different things.
..which still only leaves one apo pr company in the field.
Turns out to be the other way around, doesn’t it. Most companies are split up for detached duty and their company apothecary isn’t in the field with them.
“This chemical treatment is reduced after completion of the initiation process, but it never ends. Marines undergo periodic treatment for the rest of their lives in order to maintain a stable metabolism.”
Oh, every company of 100 marines has a specific dedicated apothecary because he’s their general practitioner. The mail job of the first and sixth through tenth captains is mostly to keep a company of combat ready marines and to decide which of his marines to attach to a given task force when he’s been ordered to send just x number of squads. He needs a company medical officer to tell him who is fit and, if they’re not, when they will be.
“In the field” there could be half a dozen apothecaries there to be field surgeons. That’s rather the point, they’re surgeons, they don’t need to be attached to any specific company.
All this talk about what marines do and don’t know, you couldn’t even do cpr on a marine because their ribs are fused into a solid shell, which would also render them unable to breath. The science doesn’t add up if you look at marines in any depth. At even close. But in my opinion if you have been in battles for 300 years you are going to learn a thing or two about battlefield first aid. Even without studying you would pick it up. People do in real life in much shorter time frames.
Wyzilla wrote: Also the apothecarion is much larger than most people think because about half of it isn't counted as there are both company-assigned apothecaries and the apothecarion marine staff itself, which are different things.
..which still only leaves one apo pr company in the field.
Turns out to be the other way around, doesn’t it. Most companies are split up for detached duty and their company apothecary isn’t in the field with them.
“This chemical treatment is reduced after completion of the initiation process, but it never ends. Marines undergo periodic treatment for the rest of their lives in order to maintain a stable metabolism.”
Oh, every company of 100 marines has a specific dedicated apothecary because he’s their general practitioner. The mail job of the first and sixth through tenth captains is mostly to keep a company of combat ready marines and to decide which of his marines to attach to a given task force when he’s been ordered to send just x number of squads. He needs a company medical officer to tell him who is fit and, if they’re not, when they will be.
“In the field” there could be half a dozen apothecaries there to be field surgeons. That’s rather the point, they’re surgeons, they don’t need to be attached to any specific company.
Andersp90 wrote: Yep, a loving and caring astartes giving a stricken guardsman CPR. That is totally a thing.
They probably wouldn't waste their time with a guardsmen unless there was literally nothing else for them to do, but for a fellow astarte? You bet your ass they would.
I don't like the primaris or cawl stuff or the return of loyalist primarchs. Or tbh any of the new lore released over the past two years. Aside from Necromunda, but that has remained old school and kept mostly intact by the developers involved.
Andersp90 wrote: Yep, a loving and caring astartes giving a stricken guardsman CPR. That is totally a thing.
They probably wouldn't waste their time with a guardsmen unless there was literally nothing else for them to do, but for a fellow astarte? You bet your ass they would.
I agree, but what are they supposed to do? They can't remove armor to get to the wound.
And like I have already stated, their bodies are built to take care of any injuries. Larraman cells will stop any bleeding save for at fatal wound.
Thargrim wrote: I don't like the primaris or cawl stuff or the return of loyalist primarchs. Or tbh any of the new lore released over the past two years. Aside from Necromunda, but that has remained old school and kept mostly intact by the developers involved.
Why may I ask?
I actually really like the new stuff apart from the ham-handedness by which the primaris were introduced (lol bigger better marines). Guilliman's return and the tearing open of the eye of terror has breathed new life into a setting that has been pretty stagnant for the past decade. It also served to inject a little hope to serve as an excellent balance to the grimderp.
Andersp90 wrote: Yep, a loving and caring astartes giving a stricken guardsman CPR. That is totally a thing.
They probably wouldn't waste their time with a guardsmen unless there was literally nothing else for them to do, but for a fellow astarte? You bet your ass they would.
I agree, but what are they supposed to do? They can't remove armor to get to the wound.
And like I have already stated, their bodies are built to take care of any injuries. Larraman cells will stop any bleeing save for at fatal wound.
Eh, if the space marine loses both of his legs hes going to bleed out before the blood can clot unless the stumps get cauterized. Larraman cells increase clotting speed to many times what a normal human's is, but it's not MAGIC like a can of flexseal or something.
Thargrim wrote: I don't like the primaris or cawl stuff or the return of loyalist primarchs. Or tbh any of the new lore released over the past two years. Aside from Necromunda, but that has remained old school and kept mostly intact by the developers involved.
Why may I ask?
excellent balance to the grimderp.
I totally agree. Still not a fan of the primaris marines though.
Eh, if the space marine loses both of his legs hes going to bleed out before the blood can clot unless the stumps get cauterized. Larraman cells increase clotting speed to many times what a normal human's is, but it's not MAGIC like a can of flexseal or something.
Well, actually:
"The Space Marine was still unconscious, and though his truncated legs were healing gradually, it was a poor heal without the attentions of a medicae. Thick red clots attracted hungry insects in the heat, as much from the ferocity of his immune system as from the blazing Miral sun overhead. There would be no possibility of infection by this stage, but equally the stumps were knitting themselves closed."
Andykp wrote: their ribs are fused into a solid shell, which would also render them unable to breath.
This isn't true. It would be entirely possible to breathe even with the ribs completely immobilized, as long as your diaphragm was sufficiently powerful.
Watching an Astartes breathing without his armour on would be weird and unsettling. His chest wouldn't move except for a slight rise and fall of his shoulders, but his belly would pump in and out like a bellows.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: SM's are worth 7 guardsmen. I'm seriously not even going to continue arguing with you and FYI guard have their own fleet.
Just because they are minor elements doesn't mean guard are on their level, actually never mind, there is no point.
You're going to have to cite your source on the bolded segment.
Part of the reforms of the military following the Horus Heresy was the splitting of the Imperial Navy from the Imperial Guard, precisely so they wouldn't have their own fleet elements.
The Navy maintain the transport vessels, though there are also references to Rogue Traders being contracted to ship IG regiments around (see the second Cain novel for an example).
Is the company apothecary alone in his duties, or does he have servitor or thrall assistants that can also be dispatched to recover progenoid glands?
Perhaps these individuals could be dispatched with smaller attachments of marines?
Or maybe the progenoid are surgically harvested before a lone squad is dispatched on tour?
Or are terminally injured marines expected to sus-an for medevac by allies?
I know marines are like zombies; easy to temporarily dispatch but you basically have to destroy the head to be sure (ie you can disable them on the battlefield but if they aren't dead within seconds they will either stabilise or go into suspended animation).
And what of Imperial Fists? Do they have a more extensive apothecarion as they can't rely on a marine who has been blown to pieces to suspended animation coma mode? Or do they just have to let the worst injured die?
"The Space Marine was still unconscious, and though his truncated legs were healing gradually, it was a poor heal without the attentions of a medicae. Thick red clots attracted hungry insects in the heat, as much from the ferocity of his immune system as from the blazing Miral sun overhead. There would be no possibility of infection by this stage, but equally the stumps were knitting themselves closed."
Quote from Slaughter at Giant’s Coffin.
Fair enough. Still think that is a little bit out there though. I also still think that marines not knowing basic battlefield first aid is a ridiculous idea. Considering that even guardsmen know that stuff.
Andykp wrote: their ribs are fused into a solid shell, which would also render them unable to breath.
This isn't true. It would be entirely possible to breathe even with the ribs completely immobilized, as long as your diaphragm was sufficiently powerful.
Watching an Astartes breathing without his armour on would be weird and unsettling. His chest wouldn't move except for a slight rise and fall of his shoulders, but his belly would pump in and out like a bellows.
Nevertheless, it would impeed their breathing compared to an normal rib cage. The biggest problem though would come from heat dispertion like in turtles. A hard shell causes them to be particularly vulnerable to heat stroke and a Space Marine generates an enormous quantity of heat thanks to heavy muscles and very active liver. While the power armor could indeed cool them off, the rib cage would prevent it from cooling their very important internal organs and lead them to heart failures. Plus, it would make them very stiff and incapable of taking cover properly or even fencing or fighting in close combat with skills. Close combat fighters aren't bodybuilders. They need to be strong, but light and supple.
"The Space Marine was still unconscious, and though his truncated legs were healing gradually, it was a poor heal without the attentions of a medicae. Thick red clots attracted hungry insects in the heat, as much from the ferocity of his immune system as from the blazing Miral sun overhead. There would be no possibility of infection by this stage, but equally the stumps were knitting themselves closed."
Quote from Slaughter at Giant’s Coffin.
Fair enough. Still think that is a little bit out there though. I also still think that marines not knowing basic battlefield first aid is a ridiculous idea. Considering that even guardsmen know that stuff.
Space marines have survived far worse in the lore. This case is nothing special.
nareik wrote: Is the company apothecary alone in his duties, or does he have servitor or thrall assistants that can also be dispatched to recover progenoid glands?
Perhaps these individuals could be dispatched with smaller attachments of marines?
Or maybe the progenoid are surgically harvested before a lone squad is dispatched on tour?
Or are terminally injured marines expected to sus-an for medevac by allies?
I know marines are like zombies; easy to temporarily dispatch but you basically have to destroy the head to be sure (ie you can disable them on the battlefield but if they aren't dead within seconds they will either stabilise or go into suspended animation).
And what of Imperial Fists? Do they have a more extensive apothecarion as they can't rely on a marine who has been blown to pieces to suspended animation coma mode? Or do they just have to let the worst injured die?
The apo has medical serf, yes. But they do not follow the apo onto the field of battle. I have no idea if it's any different with the new primaris marines.
The gene-seeds are harvested when they are ready, or when the marine dies.
They are often airlifted off the field if possible, yes.
Not sure i understand your Imperial fists question.
Andykp wrote: their ribs are fused into a solid shell, which would also render them unable to breath.
This isn't true. It would be entirely possible to breathe even with the ribs completely immobilized, as long as your diaphragm was sufficiently powerful.
Watching an Astartes breathing without his armour on would be weird and unsettling. His chest wouldn't move except for a slight rise and fall of his shoulders, but his belly would pump in and out like a bellows.
Nevertheless, it would impeed their breathing compared to an normal rib cage. The biggest problem though would come from heat dispertion like in turtles. A hard shell causes them to be particularly vulnerable to heat stroke and a Space Marine generates an enormous quantity of heat thanks to heavy muscles and very active liver. While the power armor could indeed cool them off, the rib cage would prevent it from cooling their very important internal organs and lead them to heart failures. Plus, it would make them very stiff and incapable of taking cover properly or even fencing or fighting in close combat with skills. Close combat fighters aren't bodybuilders. They need to be strong, but light and supple.
The fused ribcage wouldent make any differende in regards to thermoregulation.
I don’t think you can say it wouldn’t make any difference to thermoregulation but it’s hard to how much. The whole fused ribs thing is very silly as it render them very inflexible and though able to breathe it would struggle to cope with exertion at all. Just ask some with broken ribs to take a deep breath. Ain’t happening. It in no way would be an improvement. It would be a disability with life limiting effects.
Andykp wrote: I don’t think you can say it wouldn’t make any difference to thermoregulation but it’s hard to how much.
I can, simply becuase of the way humans thermoregulate. If you are in danger of overheating, your heartrate will increse, your subdermal venis dialate and your sweatglans will go to work. Turtles do not have those option.
The whole fused ribs thing is very silly as it render them very inflexible and though able to breathe it would struggle to cope with exertion at all.
Agree.
Just ask some with broken ribs to take a deep breath. Ain’t happening.
Again, this argument doesn't seem to be leading anywhere. The apothecaries main job on the battlefield seems to be the collection of gene seed. I think the enhanced physiology is supposed to keep them alive long enough to sur vive the battle, then get properly patched up back at the apothecarion.
But then I've never read much about apothecaries, except fabius and talos valcoran.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally also I don't think your average SM would bother with battlefield first aid for the reasons above. Their brothers will either be stable, or dead/beyond help. I don't think there'd be much middle ground.
"The Space Marine was still unconscious, and though his truncated legs were healing gradually, it was a poor heal without the attentions of a medicae. Thick red clots attracted hungry insects in the heat, as much from the ferocity of his immune system as from the blazing Miral sun overhead. There would be no possibility of infection by this stage, but equally the stumps were knitting themselves closed."
Quote from Slaughter at Giant’s Coffin.
And double yet, from Helsreach
The knight wasn’t dead. His face was awash in blood, the dark fluid filming over his eyes and darkening his features as it ran from his nose and clenched teeth. Astartes blood was supposed to clot within instants, so the tales told. It wasn’t happening here, and Andrej doubted that was a positive sign.
The Marine was swarmed with Orks and stabbed/slashed all over the place.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: The apothecaries main job on the battlefield seems to be the collection of gene seed. I think the enhanced physiology is supposed to keep them alive long enough to sur vive the battle, then get properly patched up back at the apothecarion.
But then I've never read much about apothecaries, except fabius and talos valcoran.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally also I don't think your average SM would bother with battlefield first aid for the reasons above. Their brothers will either be stable, or dead/beyond help. I don't think there'd be much middle ground.
"The Space Marine was still unconscious, and though his truncated legs were healing gradually, it was a poor heal without the attentions of a medicae. Thick red clots attracted hungry insects in the heat, as much from the ferocity of his immune system as from the blazing Miral sun overhead. There would be no possibility of infection by this stage, but equally the stumps were knitting themselves closed."
Quote from Slaughter at Giant’s Coffin.
And double yet, from Helsreach
The knight wasn’t dead. His face was awash in blood, the dark fluid filming over his eyes and darkening his features as it ran from his nose and clenched teeth. Astartes blood was supposed to clot within instants, so the tales told. It wasn’t happening here, and Andrej doubted that was a positive sign.
The Marine was swarmed with Orks and stabbed/slashed all over the place.
Even metahuman physiology has its limits.
Though, the fluff is (also) pretty inconsistent on this.
In Deathstorm, a BA terminator got stabbed twice (two wounds) by a tyranid warrior - he died/bled out. While Uriel Ventris pretty much got "hollowed out" in warriors of ultramar - and survived.
That is prob the thing I hate the most about the 40k universe. The incredibly inconscient fluff.
The knight wasn’t dead. His face was awash in blood, the dark fluid filming over his eyes and darkening his features as it ran from his nose and clenched teeth. Astartes blood was supposed to clot within instants, so the tales told. It wasn’t happening here, and Andrej doubted that was a positive sign.
The Marine was swarmed with Orks and stabbed/slashed all over the place.
Mandatory Phil Swift "I SAWED THIS MARINE IN HALF!" flexseal advert.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Personally also I don't think your average SM would bother with battlefield first aid for the reasons above. Their brothers will either be stable, or dead/beyond help. I don't think there'd be much middle ground.
Possibly, but there is a difference between "not using it much" and "not knowing how to do it".
The knight wasn’t dead. His face was awash in blood, the dark fluid filming over his eyes and darkening his features as it ran from his nose and clenched teeth. Astartes blood was supposed to clot within instants, so the tales told. It wasn’t happening here, and Andrej doubted that was a positive sign.
The Marine was swarmed with Orks and stabbed/slashed all over the place.
Mandatory Phil Swift "I SAWED THIS MARINE IN HALF!" flexseal advert.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Personally also I don't think your average SM would bother with battlefield first aid for the reasons above. Their brothers will either be stable, or dead/beyond help. I don't think there'd be much middle ground.
Possibly, but there is a difference between "not using it much" and "not knowing how to do it".
Mabye they learn it during their scout years. I dont think that would be too far-fetched.
Inability to take a deep breath with broken ribs and is also due to muscle spasms acting as a natural splint as well as painful inhibition actually stopping the muscles from responding.
The thermoregulating thing a huge question mark because of all the changes to the marine and it metabolism. Their power armour would pick up the job of excessive thermoregulation along with its other life support tasks.
I think the idea that a centuries old soldier who fights his entire life wouldn’t know a bit of first aid to be a ludicrous idea. They are expected to operate and survive unsupported for years at a time. Is it on the same level as an apothecary, no not at all. But they would have basic first aid and medical knowledge.
Andykp wrote: Inability to take a deep breath with broken ribs and is also due to muscle spasms acting as a natural splint as well as painful inhibition actually stopping the muscles from responding.
That we can agree on.
The thermoregulating thing a huge question mark because of all the changes to the marine and it metabolism.
Unless the process of creating an astartes removes the subdermal veines and sweat glands, I dont see why they shouldn't be able to thermoregulate as normal.
Their power armour would pick up the job of excessive thermoregulation along with its other life support tasks.
Yes, this point has already been made.
I think the idea that a centuries old soldier who fights his entire life wouldn’t know a bit of first aid to be a ludicrous idea. They are expected to operate and survive unsupported for years at a time. Is it on the same level as an apothecary, no not at all. But they would have basic first aid and medical knowledge.
Andersp90 wrote: Unless the process of creating an astartes removes the subdermal veines and sweat glands, I dont see why they shouldn't be able to thermoregulate as normal.
Human thermoregulation isn't perfect either. Under intense heat and physical activity (like a battle in any hot environement) soldiers suffering from hyperthermia and severe dehydration is a more common and debilitating issue than injuries caused by the enemy. A fused rib-cage makes thermoregulation significantly more difficult as it traps heat more easily add to that extra muscles and organs and an Astartes body is bound to generate more heat. With a bit of luck, maybe their body can function at a higher base temperature than a normal human, but since they still have a lot of "normal" human organs, it's probably fairly close. It doesn't make thermoregulation impossible, but it does make it more difficult. It's possible that Astartes have more sweat glands or can at least sweat more than humans before suffering from dehydration which would explain why they are described as being extraordinarly foul smelling.
All in all, this characteristic is nearly completely useless since an unarmored Space Marine can easily get killed even by lasguns as even relatively weak war weapons can bybass the defense afforded by their fused rib cage and that's not taking into account all the problems they can cause in terms of flexibility.
Andersp90 wrote: That is prob the thing I hate the most about the 40k universe. The incredibly inconscient fluff.
For space marines, I head canon these instances as being a result of a sliding scale of how well a marine takes to their implants.
Many reject them, most 'succesful' applicants get some degree of function out of the implants. A rare few get almost perfect function (instead of improved clotting / healing, theirs works in seconds. Instead of a few inches taller they get an extra foot or two.
Basically, the difference between a 'standard' space marine, and those who are destined to become the likes of Abaddon or Calgar.
Andersp90 wrote: Yep, a loving and caring astartes giving a stricken guardsman CPR. That is totally a thing.
They probably wouldn't waste their time with a guardsmen unless there was literally nothing else for them to do, but for a fellow astarte? You bet your ass they would.
I agree, but what are they supposed to do? They can't remove armor to get to the wound.
And like I have already stated, their bodies are built to take care of any injuries. Larraman cells will stop any bleeding save for at fatal wound.
Marines can take their armour off and on without any help, they just normally have servitors or senchals to do it.
Andersp90 wrote: Unless the process of creating an astartes removes the subdermal veines and sweat glands, I dont see why they shouldn't be able to thermoregulate as normal.
Human thermoregulation isn't perfect either. Under intense heat and physical activity (like a battle in any hot environement) soldiers suffering from hyperthermia and severe dehydration is a more common and debilitating issue than injuries caused by the enemy.
I never said it was. I just argued that comparing a warmblooded meta human with a coldblooded turtle makes little sense..
A fused rib-cage makes thermoregulation significantly more difficult as it traps heat more easily add to that extra muscles and organs and an Astartes body is bound to generate more heat.
A fused ribcage wouldn't make a difference. Because yes, the extra muscle mass wil create more heath - but are they located inside the chest cavity? No..
Aaannnd astartes are wearing armor with built-in air conditioning.
dehydration which would explain why they are described as being extraordinarly foul smelling.
Andersp90 wrote: That is prob the thing I hate the most about the 40k universe. The incredibly inconscient fluff.
For space marines, I head canon these instances as being a result of a sliding scale of how well a marine takes to their implants.
Many reject them, most 'succesful' applicants get some degree of function out of the implants. A rare few get almost perfect function (instead of improved clotting / healing, theirs works in seconds. Instead of a few inches taller they get an extra foot or two.
That is a good point.
Also:
"Most Chapters have existed for thousands of years. During that time, gene-seed belonging to some Chapters has mutated. This has resulted in changes in the exact nature of the artificially cultured organs. Such changes may sometimes make an implant useless. In other circumstances, changes in an organ might reduce its effectiveness or cause strange new effects. Whatever the result, it will affect the entire Chapter – all Space Marines belonging to a Chapter share implants cultured from the same original gene-seed.
As well as mutant implants, many Chapters have lost one or more types of gene-seed due to accident, genetic failure, or some other cause. Very few Chapters therefore possess all nineteen implants."
Andersp90 wrote: Yep, a loving and caring astartes giving a stricken guardsman CPR. That is totally a thing.
They probably wouldn't waste their time with a guardsmen unless there was literally nothing else for them to do, but for a fellow astarte? You bet your ass they would.
I agree, but what are they supposed to do? They can't remove armor to get to the wound.
And like I have already stated, their bodies are built to take care of any injuries. Larraman cells will stop any bleeding save for at fatal wound.
Marines can take their armour off and on without any help, they just normally have servitors or senchals to do it.
We do not know if they can remove their armor themselves without the help of a techpriest or techmarine.
That's the first thing one of the Remembrencer asks about Loken does he stinks like all the others to which the other one replies that no, he smelled mostly like oil, but later, in book two I believe. Loken comes to see a remembrencer after as session of sparing and he smells him from outside the room which was almost closed and an amoniac press was working inside. To be smelled like that by a normal human, one must smell more rancid than any human being possibly could. Eldars also describe Space Marines as being foul smelling, but they describe alll humans as foul smelling, but the words used to describe htem makes them feel even worse. All those hormones and combat stims certainly don't help body odor. Space Marines have been described as smelling very strongly and chemical. Space Marines themselves don't realise it because they are used to their own smell.
That's the first thing one of the Remembrencer asks about Loken does he stinks like all the others to which the other one replies that no, he smelled mostly like oil, but later, in book two I believe. Loken comes to see a remembrencer after as session of sparing and he smells him from outside the room which was almost closed and an amoniac press was working inside. To be smelled like that by a normal human, one must smell more rancid than any human being possibly could. Eldars also describe Space Marines as being foul smelling, but they describe alll humans as foul smelling, but the words used to describe htem makes them feel even worse. All those hormones and combat stims certainly don't help body odor. Space Marines have been described as smelling very strongly and chemical. Space Marines themselves don't realise it because they are used to their own smell.
Fair enough. I have never seen it mentioned myself.
Andersp90 wrote: Unless the process of creating an astartes removes the subdermal veines and sweat glands, I dont see why they shouldn't be able to thermoregulate as normal.
Human thermoregulation isn't perfect either. Under intense heat and physical activity (like a battle in any hot environement) soldiers suffering from hyperthermia and severe dehydration is a more common and debilitating issue than injuries caused by the enemy.
I never said it was. I just argued that comparing a warmblooded meta human with a coldblooded turtle makes little sense..
A fused rib-cage makes thermoregulation significantly more difficult as it traps heat more easily add to that extra muscles and organs and an Astartes body is bound to generate more heat.
A fused ribcage wouldn't make a difference. Because yes, the extra muscle mass wil create more heath - but are they located inside the chest cavity? No..
Aaannnd astartes are wearing armor with built-in air conditioning.
dehydration which would explain why they are described as being extraordinarly foul smelling.
Andersp90 wrote: That is prob the thing I hate the most about the 40k universe. The incredibly inconscient fluff.
For space marines, I head canon these instances as being a result of a sliding scale of how well a marine takes to their implants.
Many reject them, most 'succesful' applicants get some degree of function out of the implants. A rare few get almost perfect function (instead of improved clotting / healing, theirs works in seconds. Instead of a few inches taller they get an extra foot or two.
That is a good point.
Also:
"Most Chapters have existed for thousands of years. During that time, gene-seed belonging to some Chapters has mutated. This has resulted in changes in the exact nature of the artificially cultured organs. Such changes may sometimes make an implant useless. In other circumstances, changes in an organ might reduce its effectiveness or cause strange new effects. Whatever the result, it will affect the entire Chapter – all Space Marines belonging to a Chapter share implants cultured from the same original gene-seed.
As well as mutant implants, many Chapters have lost one or more types of gene-seed due to accident, genetic failure, or some other cause. Very few Chapters therefore possess all nineteen implants."
Andersp90 wrote: Yep, a loving and caring astartes giving a stricken guardsman CPR. That is totally a thing.
They probably wouldn't waste their time with a guardsmen unless there was literally nothing else for them to do, but for a fellow astarte? You bet your ass they would.
I agree, but what are they supposed to do? They can't remove armor to get to the wound.
And like I have already stated, their bodies are built to take care of any injuries. Larraman cells will stop any bleeding save for at fatal wound.
Marines can take their armour off and on without any help, they just normally have servitors or senchals to do it.
We do not know if they can remove their armor themselves without the help of a techpriest or techmarine.
Andykp wrote: their ribs are fused into a solid shell, which would also render them unable to breath.
This isn't true. It would be entirely possible to breathe even with the ribs completely immobilized, as long as your diaphragm was sufficiently powerful.
Watching an Astartes breathing without his armour on would be weird and unsettling. His chest wouldn't move except for a slight rise and fall of his shoulders, but his belly would pump in and out like a bellows.
Nevertheless, it would impeed their breathing compared to an normal rib cage. The biggest problem though would come from heat dispertion like in turtles. A hard shell causes them to be particularly vulnerable to heat stroke and a Space Marine generates an enormous quantity of heat thanks to heavy muscles and very active liver. While the power armor could indeed cool them off, the rib cage would prevent it from cooling their very important internal organs and lead them to heart failures. Plus, it would make them very stiff and incapable of taking cover properly or even fencing or fighting in close combat with skills. Close combat fighters aren't bodybuilders. They need to be strong, but light and supple.
I'm sure they can simply have a different style of fighting focusing more on leveraging their weight and power. At 1000 pounds or whatever, in armor, all they have to do is sit down hard on a human and it's pretty much a won match.
Andykp wrote: their ribs are fused into a solid shell, which would also render them unable to breath.
This isn't true. It would be entirely possible to breathe even with the ribs completely immobilized, as long as your diaphragm was sufficiently powerful.
Watching an Astartes breathing without his armour on would be weird and unsettling. His chest wouldn't move except for a slight rise and fall of his shoulders, but his belly would pump in and out like a bellows.
Nevertheless, it would impeed their breathing compared to an normal rib cage. The biggest problem though would come from heat dispertion like in turtles. A hard shell causes them to be particularly vulnerable to heat stroke and a Space Marine generates an enormous quantity of heat thanks to heavy muscles and very active liver. While the power armor could indeed cool them off, the rib cage would prevent it from cooling their very important internal organs and lead them to heart failures. Plus, it would make them very stiff and incapable of taking cover properly or even fencing or fighting in close combat with skills. Close combat fighters aren't bodybuilders. They need to be strong, but light and supple.
I'm sure they can simply have a different style of fighting focusing more on leveraging their weight and power. At 1000 pounds or whatever, in armor, all they have to do is sit down hard on a human and it's pretty much a won match.
Pretty sure its Red path, my piece of gak e-reader search function is the worst thing I've ever used. Can't find a pdf on line, if you have the e-book search in the search function seven tonnes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found it:
Its from vengeful spirit:
"Balanced precariously in a wedge-shaped gap in the wall, it sat on a rocky fulcrum like perfectly
balanced scales. Salicar adjudged it wedged tightly enough to support his weight. Without taking the time
to second guess himself, he vaulted from his narrow perch and landed on the block.
Right away, he knew he had been mistaken to believe it would support his mass. Though weighing
several tonnes, it immediately tipped from position and slid from the wall. Salicar sprang away from the
block and rammed his hands into a thin split in the rock above him. Skin tore and blood welled from his
hands as he clenched his fists to bear his weight."
That doesn't mean the marine weighs several tonnes. If you drop a small cars worth of weight even on a big rock weighing many tonnes, if its not balanced correctly it will move it.
I think you're confused there, that description means the rock weighs several tonnes
queen_annes_revenge wrote: That doesn't mean the marine weighs several tonnes. If you drop a small cars worth of weight even on a big rock weighing many tonnes, if its not balanced correctly it will move it.
I think you're confused there, that description means the rock weighs several tonnes
that's what I get out of it,
even though the rock weighed several tonnes, his 400kg(or whatever it really is) was enough. their mass is relatively centralized and dense, the sheer kinetic transfer a marine can impart into something is insane, add in speed and you've destroyed that house(etc) just by running thru it. Marines clad in any sort of terminator suit could probably demolish most structures with enough motivation.
). I packed it in halfway through Nemesis and haven't looked back. The bits I've picked up from Lexicanum and this forum read like bad comic book plots.
). Tau initially didn't use Titans, they took down larger things with a combined arms approach and superheavy Aircraft (the Manta was/is a Tau Titan equivalent)- Then the big suits came and the alien republic idea started to play second fiddle. I'd love for 
Again, apologies if I sound conceded.
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