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Post by: Onething123456
Horus did not believe Erebus and only joined Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium. What kind fall is that for Horus if he did not believe Erebus? Horus' talk with Magnus (and his talk with Magnus took place during his talk with Erebus) confirms that.
Laurie Goulding thinks it is poorly written.
There are things to love about the Horus Heresy books (I love the Perpetuals, even though they are controversial), but so many things are crappy.
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Post by: Formosa
I’ve just recently started going back through the Horus heresy books and I’m going to have to say yes, I’m not really sure why it is though, it could possibly be that it was intended to only be a trilogy so they needed him to fall hard by the end of the third book, or they simply didn’t have a handle on the character at the time.
As the series progressed though and his personality changed, we got little snippets of who he was, which i quite like, that is until wolfbane, from that point Horus was dead, the thing that calls itself Horus is nothing but a shell of the man he was.
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
Horus' fall is pathetic, even worse than annikin skywalker's fall.
That make it very fitting to the frimdark setting of 40k, his fall and the 10,00p0 years of hell it inflicted on countless hundreds of billions of humans over 400 generations was all due to pathetic, petty, selfish motives.
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Post by: Formosa
I used to like perpetuals, now every man and his dog is a bloody perpetual, it’s an overused meme at This point, the most recent anthology adds yet another one....
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Post by: Grimskul
 Formosa wrote:I used to like perpetuals, now every man and his dog is a bloody perpetual, it’s an overused meme at This point, the most recent anthology adds yet another one....
Oh no, you used the "p" word in a onething thread, be prepared for a tidal wave of quotes about Ollanius Pious and Damon Pyrantis or whatever coming your way as he tries to prove you wrong.
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Post by: Onething123456
 Grimskul wrote: Formosa wrote:I used to like perpetuals, now every man and his dog is a bloody perpetual, it’s an overused meme at This point, the most recent anthology adds yet another one....
Oh no, you used the "p" word in a onething thread, be prepared for a tidal wave of quotes about Ollanius Pious and Damon Pyrantis or whatever coming your way as he tries to prove you wrong.
I won't. I love the Perpetuals, even though they are controversial.
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Post by: Kinstryfe
What I find particularly interesting about the mechanics of the Heresy series is that the entire thing is an exercise in expanding a story backwards. It all started out as just a few paragraphs of story, and grew and grew and grew, and the whole time the beginning and end were already mapped out; only the stuff in between was really mutable. So in a way I do think his reasons for falling may have been somewhat petty, but I also think they've done a good job justifying some of Horus' fears. We know that The Emperor did actually eliminate his past soldiers that he didn't need anymore, and that he had purged legions (presumably) for some reason. If you're his new general, you've got to have that at the back of your mind, and that has to lead to some pretty messed up feelings which could contribute to Horus falling more easily than may be readily apparent.
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Post by: Onething123456
Laurie Goulding thinks it is poorly written. That's saying something.
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Post by: Azreal13
Banana pudding.
That's also saying something.
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Post by: Racerguy180
Now THAT'S comedy!
Have a piping hot exalt.
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Post by: foostick
You got anything to back that up?
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Post by: Slipspace
The problem with a lot of the Horus Heresy content is that it was all completely mythical, legendary stuff up until the novel series started. The actual information, as Kinstryfe says above, amounted to probably less than a page of background. It went: Horus turns traitor, Istvaan massacre, Battle of Terra. There's obviously a bit more to it than that, but not much. Within those events there's barely any detail so we were left to fill in the blanks, which will almost always be better than whatever a writer can come up with. So Horus's fall was always going to be disappointing. I think it was OK but I'm not sure they gave us enough time to get to know Horus before his fall.
I'd be surprised if BL's editor has publicly stated the fall was poorly written - that's a pretty unprofessional comment to make. Where was that said?
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Post by: Andykp
Yes. The whole series is.
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Post by: Mysterio
It isn't saying much, as Mr. Goulding is a rather thin reed to lean upon for most things HH.
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Post by: Voss
Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation.
Isn't exactly anything to discuss here.
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Post by: Onething123456
Yes.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thefirstexpedition/the-master-of-mankind-t1979-s100.html#p40004756
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:The problem with a lot of the Horus Heresy content is that it was all completely mythical, legendary stuff up until the novel series started. The actual information, as Kinstryfe says above, amounted to probably less than a page of background. It went: Horus turns traitor, Istvaan massacre, Battle of Terra. There's obviously a bit more to it than that, but not much. Within those events there's barely any detail so we were left to fill in the blanks, which will almost always be better than whatever a writer can come up with. So Horus's fall was always going to be disappointing. I think it was OK but I'm not sure they gave us enough time to get to know Horus before his fall.
I'd be surprised if BL's editor has publicly stated the fall was poorly written - that's a pretty unprofessional comment to make. Where was that said?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thefirstexpedition/the-master-of-mankind-t1979-s100.html#p40004756
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Post by: Nerak
The only falls I read was Horus, Lorgars and Fulgrims. Lorgars I completly buy, given his need to worship somethings. Horus falling after the vision of the future and being a sick, not so much. Fulgrims because a sword told him to, not so much either. I'd have bought it if Horus went completly Hubris (I am the greatest so I shall rule), wanted more power (I bow to the gods to challenge my mean father) or just thought it was right from a philosophical standpoint (everyone should be free! Not have to follow the rigid imperial dogma). As it is his fall was pretty much just a deamon (who are very trustworthy btw) telling him that:
Horus just fraking bought it. I always thought he sucked after that, though the Istvaan massacre was beautifully written.
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Post by: Onething123456
 Nerak wrote:The only falls I read was Horus, Lorgars and Fulgrims. Lorgars I completly buy, giving his need to worship somethings. Horus falling after the vision of the future and being a sick, not so much. Fulgrims because a sword told him to, not so much either. I'd have bought it if Horus went completly Hubris (I am the greatest so I shall rule), wanted more power (I bow to the gods to challenge my donkey-cave father) or just thought it was right from a philosophical standpoint (everyone should be free! Not have to follow the rigid imperial dogma). As it is his fall was pretty much just a deamon (who are very trustworthy btw) telling him that:
Horus just fething bought it. I always thought he sucked after that, though the Istvaan massacre was beautifully written.
Horus did not believe what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joined because he did not want to be forgotten.
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Post by: Nerak
Onething123456 wrote: Nerak wrote:The only falls I read was Horus, Lorgars and Fulgrims. Lorgars I completly buy, giving his need to worship somethings. Horus falling after the vision of the future and being a sick, not so much. Fulgrims because a sword told him to, not so much either. I'd have bought it if Horus went completly Hubris (I am the greatest so I shall rule), wanted more power (I bow to the gods to challenge my donkey-cave father) or just thought it was right from a philosophical standpoint (everyone should be free! Not have to follow the rigid imperial dogma). As it is his fall was pretty much just a deamon (who are very trustworthy btw) telling him that:
Horus just fething bought it. I always thought he sucked after that, though the Istvaan massacre was beautifully written.
Horus did not believe what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joined because he did not want to be forgotten.
wasn't Erebus, was a deamon. You know, the flashback where the baby-primarch pods are thrown out in space.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Horus Rising was really well written, as 40k novels go, but it was by Dan Abnett so it's pretty standard for him. I really liked how Horus at the end of it was likened to a Christ figure, being impaled through the wrist, and crying out for his father.
Unfortunately it was then followed up by Graham McNeil, who I don't feel is as successful as Abnett in implementing things like theme and writer-craft. It really shows in Fulgrim, but False Gods didn't carry forward that 'character-as-destiny' stuff that made the fall of the Luna Wolves seem inevitable (pride, being a bunch of monsters, etc) and a logical result of where they were in the 40k ficton.
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Post by: Onething123456
 Nurglitch wrote:Horus Rising was really well written, as 40k novels go, but it was by Dan Abnett so it's pretty standard for him. I really liked how Horus at the end of it was likened to a Christ figure, being impaled through the wrist, and crying out for his father.
Unfortunately it was then followed up by Graham McNeil, who I don't feel is as successful as Abnett in implementing things like theme and writer-craft. It really shows in Fulgrim, but False Gods didn't carry forward that 'character-as-destiny' stuff that made the fall of the Luna Wolves seem inevitable (pride, being a bunch of monsters, etc) and a logical result of where they were in the 40k ficton.
I loved reading Horus Rising. Horus even said around page 353 when talking about the Interex to Abaddon and the other Marines that the Emperor was born in Anatolia (or 'Anatoly', as it was spelled in the book), and showed a ring the Emperor gave him created a year before he (the Emperor) was born.
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Post by: Carlisimo
I was active in the First Expedition when Laurie Goulding wrote that post. At the time, in the context of all the other posts in that thread, I thought Goulding was mostly saying that the original story was difficult to turn into something that made sense, and also we would have needed to see more Crusade-era Horus in order to feel for him as he fell.
It’s worth noting that he wasn’t at BL until the novel series was in the teens, and he left when it was in the mid-forties.
The original Space Marine rulebook (“Space Marine” was the name of 1st and 2nd edition Epic) has Warmaster Horus, who’s recently recovered from an illness, go into a feral warrior lodge induction ceremony on Davin to establish ties with the natives. He gets possessed by a daemon, and then you get Isstvan III and V, which are only a little different from the current version. I’m surprised how much of the original story has been maintained through 30 years of rewrites.
I agree what happened in False Gods wasn’t the most compelling fall, but I’m glad they gave Horus some agency. I was surprised that they made it more about his doubts (about the Emperor getting rid of them after the Great Crusade) than about his hubris. I guess that made him more sympathetic, but if all the primarchs embody one aspect of humanity (or of the Emperor’s personality), Horus’s was ambition. That’s my criticism. But it was an improvement over just getting possessed by a daemon as if it were something the Chaos gods could do to anyone at any time.
And as great as Horus Rising was, it was written by the same guy who wrote Alpharius’s very questionable fall...
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Post by: Nurglitch
I really liked Legion, but then I also really like damnation stories where it's the best of intentions. Save the galaxy at the expense of Humanity, or maybe it's a xenos-trick... The back-story of the Alpha Legion already entertaining heretical thoughts, and the underlying theme of betrayers betraying each other through Tzeentchian-plotting sold it to me.
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Post by: pm713
Nerak wrote:The only falls I read was Horus, Lorgars and Fulgrims. Lorgars I completly buy, given his need to worship somethings. Horus falling after the vision of the future and being a sick, not so much. Fulgrims because a sword told him to, not so much either. I'd have bought it if Horus went completly Hubris (I am the greatest so I shall rule), wanted more power (I bow to the gods to challenge my mean father) or just thought it was right from a philosophical standpoint (everyone should be free! Not have to follow the rigid imperial dogma). As it is his fall was pretty much just a deamon (who are very trustworthy btw) telling him that:
Horus just fraking bought it. I always thought he sucked after that, though the Istvaan massacre was beautifully written.
That's a bit over simplified. Fulgrim was around a Demon for years and gradually fell and only completed things when he went a bit nuts killing Ferus and Horus was stabbed and infected by a Chaos weapon.
Everything sounds stupid when you oversimplify e.g. Dark Angels are Marines but with robes.
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Post by: Carlisimo
Nurglitch wrote:I really liked Legion, but then I also really like damnation stories where it's the best of intentions. Save the galaxy at the expense of Humanity, or maybe it's a xenos-trick... The back-story of the Alpha Legion already entertaining heretical thoughts, and the underlying theme of betrayers betraying each other through Tzeentchian-plotting sold it to me.
I liked the rest of the book, and I’m comfortable with the idea of the Alpha Legion betraying the Imperium for its own good. But the details here didn’t work for me. It required allowing humanity to get wiped out, and with how xenophobic the Imperium was, I absolutely could not see its soldiers prioritizing the destruction of Chaos above the survival of humanity. “Taking one for the team,” is at odds with the whole spirit of the times.
It also doesn’t make much sense in that they could have nipped the Heresy in the bud with their foreknowledge and let the Emperor complete his plan - either before Horus’s fall or with a triple-crossing at Isstvan V.
Later books give the impression that the Alpha Legion started doubting the Cabal and maybe saw an opportunity to gain power in the midst of a civil war, but there were few hints of that in Legion.
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Post by: insaniak
Voss wrote:Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation. .
Except that wasn't what happened. Erebus didn't convince Horus to turn. Getting stabbed with a warp-tainted blade, and the subsequent daemonic 'intervention' was what turned him.
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Post by: bogalubov
Carlisimo wrote:I was active in the First Expedition when Laurie Goulding wrote that post. At the time, in the context of all the other posts in that thread, I thought Goulding was mostly saying that the original story was difficult to turn into something that made sense, and also we would have needed to see more Crusade-era Horus in order to feel for him as he fell.
I think that's the crux of it. The turn seems quick if you only consider the contents of those first three books. But to see how Horus got to that point in time you have to consider his whole life and that doesn't get fleshed out until much later in the series. First Heretic, Wolfsbane, Slaves to Darkness and many other novels cover the information that makes the turn a much more gradual process than what's presented in False Gods.
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Post by: ChargerIIC
The problem with many of the early bits of the Heresy is that the Black Library doesn't seem to have expected to get more than a dozen books out of it. Things are very rushed and Horus is barely developed as a character before the fall occurs. Worse, different authors often took character in completely different directions (Magnus). This exploited the already existing weakness that as Myths, the primarchs were already dangerously two-dimensional and the compression makes it so much worse.
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Post by: bogalubov
 ChargerIIC wrote:The problem with many of the early bits of the Heresy is that the Black Library doesn't seem to have expected to get more than a dozen books out of it. Things are very rushed and Horus is barely developed as a character before the fall occurs. Worse, different authors often took character in completely different directions (Magnus). This exploited the already existing weakness that as Myths, the primarchs were already dangerously two-dimensional and the compression makes it so much worse.
I think it's perfectly serviceable as a space soap opera.
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Post by: HoundsofDemos
ChargerIIC wrote:The problem with many of the early bits of the Heresy is that the Black Library doesn't seem to have expected to get more than a dozen books out of it. Things are very rushed and Horus is barely developed as a character before the fall occurs. Worse, different authors often took character in completely different directions (Magnus). This exploited the already existing weakness that as Myths, the primarchs were already dangerously two-dimensional and the compression makes it so much worse.
Like many successful series, the HH is a victim of it's own success. GW probably never planned to have as many novels as it has pumped out but they sold very well, with a few even topping the NY times best selling chart. So they order and print more books. It ends up a bloated mess but it still makes money and that is at the end of the day what any company generally will care about.
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Post by: ChargerIIC
bogalubov wrote: ChargerIIC wrote:The problem with many of the early bits of the Heresy is that the Black Library doesn't seem to have expected to get more than a dozen books out of it. Things are very rushed and Horus is barely developed as a character before the fall occurs. Worse, different authors often took character in completely different directions (Magnus). This exploited the already existing weakness that as Myths, the primarchs were already dangerously two-dimensional and the compression makes it so much worse.
I think it's perfectly serviceable as a space soap opera.
Serviceable, but you have to admit that it's way better as it got on as opposed to the first 5 novels.
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Post by: Azreal13
Disagree. Irrespective of the writing quality, the early books at least benefited from a certain drive towards a conclusion. Since the success of those books, the padding to story ratio has become increasingly skewed.
Some of those stories have been worth telling, but even many of those would not have hurt the series by not existing. Then there real lows like Pythos which hurt the series by existing.
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Post by: Formosa
Can’t argue with that azrael, the lows of the series were pretty dire, the highs were amazing stories as well, but the padding... so much padding, I can’t really blame them though the heresy has become a multi million pound series that has expanded into games (most bad) and a table top game in its own right.
The only thing I can think of with the same highs and lows are the Star Wars novels and possibly battletech.
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Post by: HoundsofDemos
 Azreal13 wrote:Disagree. Irrespective of the writing quality, the early books at least benefited from a certain drive towards a conclusion. Since the success of those books, the padding to story ratio has become increasingly skewed.
Some of those stories have been worth telling, but even many of those would not have hurt the series by not existing. Then there real lows like Pythos which hurt the series by existing.
I read the first three books in the omnibus format and besides the weirdness of style changing due to having three different authors, it told a coherent and tragic story. It says something to the quality of the writing that I know the ending ahead of time but still felt something once the Massacre was in full swing, it really captured both loyal and chaos space marines perfectly. Since then, yea it's all over the place.
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Post by: Onething123456
 insaniak wrote:Voss wrote:Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation. .
Except that wasn't what happened. Erebus didn't convince Horus to turn. Getting stabbed with a warp-tainted blade, and the subsequent daemonic 'intervention' was what turned him.
I read False Gods and Erebus had to try to deceive Horus to get him to join Chaos even with the sword. When Magnus showed up, and tells him not to listen, Horus says he knew Erebus was not Sejanus and said they are both stupid. At the end of the talk, Horus says he has chosen his path. He joined Chaos so the Emperor would not have him forgotten by the Imperium (Horus saw a vision where he was forgotten. And he only thought it was real). Automatically Appended Next Post: HoundsofDemos wrote: Azreal13 wrote:Disagree. Irrespective of the writing quality, the early books at least benefited from a certain drive towards a conclusion. Since the success of those books, the padding to story ratio has become increasingly skewed.
Some of those stories have been worth telling, but even many of those would not have hurt the series by not existing. Then there real lows like Pythos which hurt the series by existing.
I read the first three books in the omnibus format and besides the weirdness of style changing due to having three different authors, it told a coherent and tragic story. It says something to the quality of the writing that I know the ending ahead of time but still felt something once the Massacre was in full swing, it really captured both loyal and chaos space marines perfectly. Since then, yea it's all over the place.
Most of the Horus Heresy books are poorly written, but I loved Horus Rising.
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Post by: slave.entity
I'm about half way through the series going in strict chronological order (according to that huge HH reading chart that's floating around) and while there have been plenty of forgettable books, going through them in this manner has definitely enriched my tabletop experience. Even if the plot arcs and characterization aren't perfectly consistent, most of the books still just ooze atmosphere and setting, which is the main draw of 40k anyway. I do remember being pretty confused in the first 3 books when Horus fell. One moment he was fine, the next, "Welp, Horus is a traitor now. Ok. Moving on."
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Post by: TarkinLarson
Hmmm... I had a different interpretation with Horus (although I have only listened to the audiobooks and might not have paid attention at all times)....
I thought Horus wanted to stop the Emperor from being worshipped as a god and saw himself as more of a worthy leader of the Imperium.
If it was just that he didn't want to be forgotten (which I thought was only a part of that) then I'm a little disappointed, but it's fun that such a small thing as that might cause all of that destruction and mayhem.
I know a lot of the primarchs are written in a way that they felt abandoned and forgotten by the Emperor.
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Post by: Onething123456
I think most of the writing in the Horus Heresy books is not too good (I love the Perpetuals, even though they are controversial, but the Perpetuals are besides the point).
ADB and Dan Abnett write good books. But some people take lines in ADB's books too seriously. Like the Emperor "not caring for his children", as that was from the perspective of Arkhan (and ADB even says that in interviews). And what Koja Zu said about the Emperor is a bit out of context. It was clear, as Duskweaver has said, when reading the story that the notion was just Koja Zu expressing her hatred for the Emperor ( ADB even says it was not meant to be a serious suggestion. She was the Emperor's rival, a war criminal, liar and thief who stole the oceans of Terra). It's disappointing that some readers took it as a serious suggestion about the Emperor. (and the Emperor does not seem to breath because when you look at him, you see what he wants you to see. He is not a 16 foot tall heavenly, angelic, golden giant).
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3
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Post by: Pacific
insaniak wrote:Voss wrote:Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation. .
Except that wasn't what happened. Erebus didn't convince Horus to turn. Getting stabbed with a warp-tainted blade, and the subsequent daemonic 'intervention' was what turned him.
That's it exactly. "A wizard did it". (or magic sword in this case).
There was the possibility to write an absolutely astounding piece of character-driven fiction on an epic scale.
Instead we probably have one of the biggest missed opportunities in the history of BL and an astoundingly lazy and directionless narrative for the catalyst of the entire 40k universe. I can't really put into words how disappointed I am by the way it was done (there have been some extremely lengthy posts in the blogsphere which have written far more clearly than I could hope to achieve), but in summary I'd probably say it's one of the main reasons I stopped slavishly awaiting the next HH book release. I still read them from time to time, but for me the chance to make some magic with the series was lost.
Would love ADB or maybe Dan Abnett to have a punt at a 750 mega-page 'Fall of Horus'. Try and add some depth and complexity to why things played out as they did. But I'm not very hopeful that it will ever get done.
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Post by: Onething123456
 Pacific wrote: insaniak wrote:Voss wrote:Well, it _was_ poorly written. 'You're lying to me, but I'm gonna do what you want anyway' is piss poor motivation. .
Except that wasn't what happened. Erebus didn't convince Horus to turn. Getting stabbed with a warp-tainted blade, and the subsequent daemonic 'intervention' was what turned him.
That's it exactly. "A wizard did it". (or magic sword in this case).
There was the possibility to write an absolutely astounding piece of character-driven fiction on an epic scale.
Instead we probably have one of the biggest missed opportunities in the history of BL and an astoundingly lazy and directionless narrative for the catalyst of the entire 40k universe. I can't really put into words how disappointed I am by the way it was done (there have been some extremely lengthy posts in the blogsphere which have written far more clearly than I could hope to achieve), but in summary I'd probably say it's one of the main reasons I stopped slavishly awaiting the next HH book release. I still read them from time to time, but for me the chance to make some magic with the series was lost.
Would love ADB or maybe Dan Abnett to have a punt at a 750 mega-page 'Fall of Horus'. Try and add some depth and complexity to why things played out as they did. But I'm not very hopeful that it will ever get done.
That's a load of crap. Erebus had to try and manipulate Horus even with the Chaos sword. He had to tell him lies about the Emperor to get him to even consider joining, and at the end of the talk, Horus said he made his choice.
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Post by: Excommunicatus
Yes. The entire series is poo.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
pm713 wrote: Nerak wrote:The only falls I read was Horus, Lorgars and Fulgrims. Lorgars I completly buy, given his need to worship somethings. Horus falling after the vision of the future and being a sick, not so much. Fulgrims because a sword told him to, not so much either. I'd have bought it if Horus went completly Hubris (I am the greatest so I shall rule), wanted more power (I bow to the gods to challenge my mean father) or just thought it was right from a philosophical standpoint (everyone should be free! Not have to follow the rigid imperial dogma). As it is his fall was pretty much just a deamon (who are very trustworthy btw) telling him that:
Horus just fraking bought it. I always thought he sucked after that, though the Istvaan massacre was beautifully written.
That's a bit over simplified. Fulgrim was around a Demon for years and gradually fell and only completed things when he went a bit nuts killing Ferus and Horus was stabbed and infected by a Chaos weapon.
Everything sounds stupid when you oversimplify e.g. Dark Angels are Marines but with robes.
That isn't actually much better. A Corruption Score that goes up from close proximity to a demon is not thematically interesting; ultimately it tells you nothing about the character and robs them of their agency. It especially does not work well in a series that's trying to be something of a classical tragedy, the fall needs to be due to fundamental failures of the hero in question for it to have any sort of meaning.
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Post by: Excommunicatus
I'm not defending BL in the slightest because, well, see my previous comment, but they did at least attempt to tie his fall to his pride and arrogance.
It loses a lot of impact because everyone - literally, everyone - in the HH series ultimately boils down to "pride and arrogance", but it is there.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Nah, I thought his fall was fine. I actually enjoyed the audio book multiple times.
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Post by: Onething123456
So Horus not even believing what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium, as Erebus showed him a vision where the Emperor casts him from memory, is fine? Its like Anakin's fall.
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Post by: Slipspace
Onething123456 wrote:So Horus not even believing what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium, as Erebus showed him a vision where the Emperor casts him from memory, is fine? Its like Anakin's fall.
That in itself isn't a bad reason to turn traitor. I get the motivation behind the decision. In terms of the writing, I think it was just too quick and we could have done with more time with non-traitor Horus to explore his flaws more fully so that his turn to Chaos has a bit more depth to it. That lack of depth is what leads to the whole thing ending up as if it was just "magic sword, Chaos temple, visions, traitor!"
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Post by: nareik
Onething123456 wrote:So Horus not even believing what Erebus said about the Emperor and only joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium, as Erebus showed him a vision where the Emperor casts him from memory, is fine? Its like Anakin's fall.
It's interesting that Chaos pursued so many paths of temptation to try bring Horus under their sway, but the thread that actually won Horus over, was one that no chaos agents had seemed to pull particularly hard on; Horus turned to chaos on his own terms, rather than due to the machinations of others?
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Post by: TwilightSparkles
It works, you've already got doubts from Horus early on and a sense of weariness. You've got that underlying fear that their time, the legions, is coming to an end , and divisions between brothers. More importantly Horus is given access when he becomes warcaster to incredible forces with little failsafe.
The Chaos powers need a decisive action like Istvaan to seal the deal, it's the point of no return. As you read more volumes more and more back story is added to Horus fall, you can't just read it in the context of volume 1-3.
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Post by: HoundsofDemos
The initial three books did not do a great job of setting up his fall. Back fill from subsequent novels did a better job of showing that Horus had a lot of personal doubts, flaws and issues. I know that a lot of the primarchs get compared to whinny children/teens but in a lot of ways many of them having stunted grow and severe mental/emotional problems makes sense.
They were lab grown demi gods meant to be raised in a very sheltered environment that got tossed out into the stars. Even they best parents would have not been truly up to the task of raising them right and they really couldn't relate to anyone else. Horus was the first to meet Dad and had a unique experience of being the only one for a while before Russ was found. Wolfsbane did a lot to show that he had issues from that day forward and that surprisingly Russ was one of the more well adjusted primarchs.
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Post by: pm713
In fairness most of them had parents who did a decent job raising them like Vulkan. They only went off the rails in the couple of cases where they were too far gone or just horribly mismanaged.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
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Post by: Onething123456
 timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.
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Post by: Onething123456
timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.
I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.
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Post by: Pacific
timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.
The point is thought that the sword functions as a plot device, and takes the place of a meaningful rationale as to why Horus would turn against 200 years of family & kinship, and the empire that he played a big role in creating.
I think the disappointing thing for many of us is that we were denied that 'Paradise Lost' plotline that we were all hoping for as being the point at which the 40k universe was created. i.e. that there was a logic to what Horus was doing and why he turned against the Emperor. But actually that logic wasn't really robust enough and so McNeil introduced the catalyst of the magic sword. One nasty dream that there were statues of his brothers and not him, and they'd been forgotten? Hmm yes that might not be enough to explain the incomprehensibly massive decision to turn against the Emperor. To kill his own brothers (bearing in mind that the very concept of marine turning on marine was laughably unthinkable, so starts the 1st book in the series) and to turn everything into ruin.
So - to serve as an alternative to that logical shortcoming (and for us to believe what is happening) we get fevered dreams and, because it's all chaos and weird, evil and unknowable, that's why it all went down.
So for me it's a massive shame and as I said possibly the biggest missed opportunity, certainly to turn the story into a serious piece of literature.
Imagine if we'd had stories of the marines being sent to their deaths and meaninglessly in their thousands while the Emperor looked on impassively? Of proud warriors who had outlived their usefulness being 'euthanized' or stripped of their arms, and left to live in outcast communities? Of worlds which had been pacified by the marines being given to corrupt civilian control? Or a primarch that had done no wrong being hunted down and murdered while his legion were humiliated?
This could have been built up over three or four books to help paint a picture of the Emperor as less than perfect, of someone who was belligerent to the point where mutiny against his rule could actually be believable. But, because this wasn't done, the only way to conceptualise turning against him is to introduce two-dimensional, childish ideas of 'evil' and "a wizard did it".
So, for me the books are perfectly readable. But, I imagine what might have been (and I realise a lot of people might have different ideas of how they imagine GW's universes to be) and I can't help but be disappointed.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Unfortunately, I think that's the case of a lot of literature and films; "this could have been done, but they did that instead"; I have a bigger gripe with how they handled X-Men: Apocalypse's ending than this book (Jean kills Apocalypse instead of going for the Age of Apocalypse style ending where he threatens Magneto's son, and gets himself ripped to shreds with a witty "so much for the strong" from Magneto-seriously missed opportunity there). This book? Nowhere near as bad.
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Post by: HoundsofDemos
Part of the problem is when they opened the series. I have the same issue with GW time skipping between Gathering Storm and jumping 100 years ahead. I really wish they had covered more of the great crusade in the first few novels rather than back fill it nearly a decade latter. Less tell, more show.
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Post by: Onething123456
timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.
I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.
And Erebus said the Emperor wants to be a God, but Horus did not believe that. The notion of the Emperor "wanting to sacrifice humanity to be a God" comes from the mouth of Erebus in False Gods.
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Post by: gorgon
ChargerIIC wrote:The problem with many of the early bits of the Heresy is that the Black Library doesn't seem to have expected to get more than a dozen books out of it. Things are very rushed and Horus is barely developed as a character before the fall occurs. Worse, different authors often took character in completely different directions (Magnus). This exploited the already existing weakness that as Myths, the primarchs were already dangerously two-dimensional and the compression makes it so much worse.
Right. If they'd known there was going to be 50+ books in the series, they might have done it differently.
But another thing to consider is the scope. They had a lot of stories to tell. Although Horus is a key figure, the whole thing isn't really his story in the way that the prequel trilogy was Anakin's. Yes, it's an unsatisfying heel turn, but it's less important how he turns than just having him turn and telling the stories about what happened in the wake of that.
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Post by: Onething123456
As someone said, Horus' fall was about as good as Anakin's fall.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.
I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.
And Erebus said the Emperor wants to be a God, but Horus did not believe that. The notion of the Emperor "wanting to sacrifice humanity to be a God" comes from the mouth of Erebus in False Gods.
And? That has nothing to do with what I just said. If I compare apples to oranges, your response shouldn't be "cheese".
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Post by: Onething123456
timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Honestly, the first three books were fine; Horus was without peer, was a great leader, had his Mourneval to keep him humble, and was attacked body and mind by Chaos; when he was in a fevered state, he succumbed to hubris he would have normally laughed off had he been in his right mind. Sure, it's not Shakespearean prose, but it's damn good enough. The amount of complaints are honestly ridiculous. I'd be happy enough to read any Dakkanaut's retelling of his fall that is "better" than the BL version...so we can all pick it apart and tell them why their writing sucks from our comfy armchairs.
Horus had to willingly join Chaos even with the Chaos sword Erebus had.
Horus DOES willingly join Chaos; in a feverish state of mind after he was stabbed by the Nurgle blade and poisoned. The blade from Erebus doesn't even matter, and has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Alright. I thought you were implying he did not turn on his own willingly.
I implied nothing; Horus was quite literally cut by a plague-tainted blade, strong enough to lay even a Primarch low. He was brought to the hut where he suffered under fever, was taunted by Chaos that he and multiple brothers would be forgotten, while other brothers were honored. During this fevered state, he accepted the vision given to him, and welcomed the Chaos gods to turn him into their vessel; he was 100% willing, but only because they softened him up physically first, then attacked his mind, then attacked his honor; it was a three step process. And it worked perfectly.
And Erebus said the Emperor wants to be a God, but Horus did not believe that. The notion of the Emperor "wanting to sacrifice humanity to be a God" comes from the mouth of Erebus in False Gods.
And? That has nothing to do with what I just said. If I compare apples to oranges, your response shouldn't be "cheese".
I thought you were implying Horus only joined Chaos because of the vision Erebus showed him where he is forgotten.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Which has literally nothing to do with what you just said. You responded that "Erebus said the Emperor wanted to be a god etc etc". Not "Horus saw the vision where he was forgotten and when in a catatonic, poisoned, delirious state, he lost his way and fell to the dark path" or some such thing. You gave a response having absolutely nothing to do with what was just said, except that they exist in the same story.
This is what people have a problem with. You either quote dump in completely meaningless ways, OR you respond with something that has nothing to do with the point others provide. It's like you don't have any idea what is going on in your own threads. In her best partying days, Lindsey Lohan was more "with it" than you are. Please, please, PLEASE try actually reading other peoples' responses, think about them, write a legitimate response, READ your own response, ask yourself if it makes sense, THEN post it. Everyone WANTS to discuss 40k on here; that's WHY we're here. We don't want to bang our heads against the same empty responses day in and day out.
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Post by: Onething123456
timetowaste85 wrote:Which has literally nothing to do with what you just said. You responded that "Erebus said the Emperor wanted to be a god etc etc". Not "Horus saw the vision where he was forgotten and when in a catatonic, poisoned, delirious state, he lost his way and fell to the dark path" or some such thing. You gave a response having absolutely nothing to do with what was just said, except that they exist in the same story.
This is what people have a problem with. You either quote dump in completely meaningless ways, OR you respond with something that has nothing to do with the point others provide. It's like you don't have any idea what is going on in your own threads. In her best partying days, Lindsey Lohan was more "with it" than you are. Please, please, PLEASE try actually reading other peoples' responses, think about them, write a legitimate response, READ your own response, ask yourself if it makes sense, THEN post it. Everyone WANTS to discuss 40k on here; that's WHY we're here. We don't want to bang our heads against the same empty responses day in and day out.
This thread is about Horus' fall, so I thought it would have something to do with it.
Anyway, carry on and talk to the other guys.
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Post by: Grimskul
Onething123456 wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Which has literally nothing to do with what you just said. You responded that "Erebus said the Emperor wanted to be a god etc etc". Not "Horus saw the vision where he was forgotten and when in a catatonic, poisoned, delirious state, he lost his way and fell to the dark path" or some such thing. You gave a response having absolutely nothing to do with what was just said, except that they exist in the same story.
This is what people have a problem with. You either quote dump in completely meaningless ways, OR you respond with something that has nothing to do with the point others provide. It's like you don't have any idea what is going on in your own threads. In her best partying days, Lindsey Lohan was more "with it" than you are. Please, please, PLEASE try actually reading other peoples' responses, think about them, write a legitimate response, READ your own response, ask yourself if it makes sense, THEN post it. Everyone WANTS to discuss 40k on here; that's WHY we're here. We don't want to bang our heads against the same empty responses day in and day out.
This thread is about Horus' fall, so I thought it would have something to do with it.
Anyway, carry on and talk to the other guys.
Then why did you quote him if you didn't even bother to read what his response was about? You can't just respond to people tangentially and not expect people to get confused or upset since you're basically wasting their time.
Remember, this forum is NOT a chatroom, it's not an echo chamber either for you to hear yourself talk (in which case, why bother posting?).
As far as Horus' fall, it's main issue is that they rushed it, and once they figured out they could milk the series, only then did they start adding more context to Horus turning over time, rather than the other way around.
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Post by: Onething123456
Horus joining Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten by the Imperium is the only reason he joined, even though he knew Erebus was lying about everything else.
Bye.
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Post by: Crimson
So mindbogglingly terrible.
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Post by: Onething123456
Most things in the Horus Heresy books are poorly written. Duskweaver tells me he loves some of the concepts in it and even the Perpetuals as a concept, but not the execution.
ADB and Dan Abnett have written good books, even good HH books, but most of the writing in the Horus Heresy books is poor.
Like the Emperor being hypocritical when he tells Uriah Olathire in Tales of Heresy about the conquest of Crusaders and then goes on to ask planets to join the Imperium or conquer them and slaughter any military forces on the planets, and force planets to join the Imperium.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.
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Post by: Onething123456
 Marshal Loss wrote:Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.
As I said before, Horus did not believe most of what Erebus said about the Emperor (and he had doubts about the rest of what Erebus said) and only joined Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten.
So, yes.
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Post by: Grimskul
Onething123456 wrote: Marshal Loss wrote:Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.
As I said before, Horus did not believe most of what Erebus said about the Emperor (and he had doubts about the rest of what Erebus said) and only joined Chaos because he did not want to be forgotten.
So, yes.
...If you've said it before, why do you keep repeating it? He wasn't even quoting you directly.
You're not adding anything more to conversation, do you talk to people IRL this way?
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Post by: Onething123456
I hope BL tries to fix the pile of crap that is Horus' fall.
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Post by: Brutus_Apex
I would agree that Horus's fall was poorly written.
Personally, I would have liked them to allude to the fact that he may have had a close personal relationship with one of the 2 destroyed legions. When the Emperor decided that those legions needed to be destroyed, he disagreed with the Emperor, but in the end let it happen. This eats away at his conscience, thinking that he could have done something more to defend his brother. When he sees this happening again with Lorgar and Magnus, he snaps and goes to his brother's aid, only to find out that Lorgar is already lost to Chaos, but by then it's too late.
Thats my take.
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Post by: Andykp
The problem with horuss fall is the same problem with the whole series. It is so much about father/son issues. In fact all about them. It’s so overly simplified. Much better when horus was the emperors closest friend and best general. Makes it all a lot less emo and one dimensional. In the end they are all the same really (the primarchs).
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Except now they aren't about a father and son relationship, but closer to the relationship Tim Allen had with his Black and Deckers.
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Post by: nareik
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:Except now they aren't about a father and son relationship, but closer to the relationship Tim Allen had with his Black and Deckers.
He loved that thing more than his own children!
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Post by: Voss
Marshal Loss wrote:Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.
There isn't anything particularly tragic about somehow who chooses to kill trillions and betray people who trusted him.
He voluntarily made himself a puppet.
Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.
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Post by: w1zard
Voss wrote:Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.
IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.
Fulgrim had no choice. He was possessed by a daemon against his will and trapped within his own body. These circumstances warped his psyche into finally accepting it and giving into chaos, but what put him into that situation was ultimately outside of his control.
Primarchs like Perturabo and Angron on the other hand, knew full well what they were doing when they betrayed the emperor. Due to their tragic upbringing and life circumstances they had reasons WHY they betrayed the emperor, which are entirely understandable from their point of view, and are arguably even justifiable. But ultimately THEY chose to go down that path. Angron didn't control what happened to him on Nuceria, but he did let it affect his decision making.
This is of course, setting aside arguments about determinism and how much control people really have over their own mindsets.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Voss wrote: Marshal Loss wrote:Yes, it was written extremely poorly, which is a real pity because he's such an awesome and tragic character that has been mishandled by BL.
There isn't anything particularly tragic about somehow who chooses to kill trillions and betray people who trusted him.
He voluntarily made himself a puppet.
Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.
Fulgrim and Angron are sad. Tragedy, in a literary sense, requires a fall of the character's own making. If the ending isn't a natural conclusion of the hero's choices then it isn't tragedy, it's just shock.
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Post by: Voss
w1zard wrote:Voss wrote:Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.
IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.
.
Angron really didn't. He got pulled out of getting killed against his will (by the Emperor) and ultimately had daemonhood pinned on him unawares through Lorgar's choices.
Whether he even comprehended what was going on between those two points is debatable.
Also, really? Perturabo had reasons? He mostly just shrugged and went along with it. After all these years they've barely fleshed him out.
----
Archanofiend, that isn't a very useful definition. These are universally background characters, not heroes, and by and large they don't make choices at all. The universe/the writing/chaos just happens AT them. Loken, Garro, various historians and other individual Astartes (who probably have names) are the heroes of these stories and the ones making anything resembling a meaningful choice. The primarchs generally just consult the script and wordlessly accept it in lieu of motivation.
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Post by: HoundsofDemos
w1zard wrote:Voss wrote:Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.
IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.
Fulgrim had no choice. He was possessed by a daemon against his will and trapped within his own body. These circumstances warped his psyche into finally accepting it and giving into chaos, but what put him into that situation was ultimately outside of his control.
Primarchs like Perturabo and Angron on the other hand, knew full well what they were doing when they betrayed the emperor. Due to their tragic upbringing and life circumstances they had reasons WHY they betrayed the emperor, which are entirely understandable from their point of view, and are arguably even justifiable. But ultimately THEY chose to go down that path. Angron didn't control what happened to him on Nuceria, but he did let it affect his decision making.
This is of course, setting aside arguments about determinism and how much control people really have over their own mindsets.
Angron is tragic to me because of how little he had a say over his own life, especially compared to his brothers. Pretty much every other primarch managed to conquer and rule their home planet. Angron alone failed at that and was so physically and psychologically broken that the right thing the Emperor should have put him down and give him some measure of peace. Instead the Emperor decided to let him destroy his legion and set up a problem down the road.
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Post by: AnomanderRake
The comparisons to Anakin Skywalker earlier up the thread seem apt to me; the problem with both him and Horus was that we never got to see enough pre-fall to emphathize with the reasons behind the fall. Anakin was the whiny little s***head everyone hated in Phantom Menace, and then the deliverer of some of the worst dialogue ever written in Attack of the Clones, and by the time we got around to the massacring civilians it doesn't seem particularly tragic; we don't get that "oh-how-the-mighty-have-fallen" sense because the character was never particularly "mighty" in the first place. Similarly with Horus the first trilogy doesn't focus on him at all; we only get his viewpoint when he's in his visions on Davin, and before that we only see him from a distance while other characters gush about how cool he is.
I don't think Horus' fall was badly written per se; in this case it feels like they're pandering too much to the fanbase, taking Horus' character/personality beforehand as a given that they don't really need to touch on so they can skip ahead to the "heresy" bit because we've all accepted it over years and years of reading the lore. It might have worked better if we'd gotten a bit more Great Crusade and pre-fall Horus before jumping straight into Davin, and there are bits and peices of pre-fall Horus in flashbacks in other novels that have certainly helped (like the conversations between Horus and Sanguinius in Fear to Tread about the Red Thirst, which do a lot to set up the underlying anxiety/fear about being judged unfit and purged, and Horus' willingness to defy the Emperor (or in this case keep secrets) for reasons of principle), but spreading information out that much creates this sort of comic-book-universe-like quality of "this doesn't make sense unless you've read five other books that set it up more effectively".
Perhaps the Horus Heresy, like Star Wars, would benefit from being cut up and stitched back together in a more sensible order to make it make sense as you read the novels instead of not making that much sense and then five books later getting a flashback that makes you go "Oh, that's what's going on."
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Post by: Azreal13
Also, really? Perturabo had reasons? He mostly just shrugged and went along with it. After all these years they've barely fleshed him out.
There's is plenty written about Perturabo. Essentially he was a truly gifted artisan, capable of making intricate machines of incredible complexity, but was only ever known and used as an unsubtle hammer to break sieges.
It was the resentment of being unable to express himself fully, alongside with the expectation that his Legion would simply do the dirty work with, he felt, no appreciation of the skill or sacrifice that it took, that formed the seed of his fall.
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Post by: w1zard
Voss wrote:Angron really didn't. He got pulled out of getting killed against his will (by the Emperor) and ultimately had daemonhood pinned on him unawares through Lorgar's choices.
Whether he even comprehended what was going on between those two points is debatable.
Angron chose to turn traitor before he was ascended by Lorgar. Ironically, Lorgar forced that ascension on him to save his life. Also, ironically, the emperor teleported Angron away to save his life.
HoundsofDemos wrote:Angron is tragic to me because of how little he had a say over his own life, especially compared to his brothers. Pretty much every other primarch managed to conquer and rule their home planet. Angron alone failed at that and was so physically and psychologically broken that the right thing the Emperor should have put him down and give him some measure of peace. Instead the Emperor decided to let him destroy his legion and set up a problem down the road.
Oh I didn't say it wasn't TRAGIC, I just said he made a conscious decision to betray the emperor, knowing full well what it meant.
Voss wrote:Also, really? Perturabo had reasons? He mostly just shrugged and went along with it. After all these years they've barely fleshed him out.
Read Angel Exterminatus if you haven't, it gives a really good insight into why Perturabo turned.
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Post by: nareik
HoundsofDemos wrote:w1zard wrote:Voss wrote:Fulgrim and Angron are tragic. They got twisted around through victimhood to atrocities by no fault or will of their own.
IDK, Angron made his choices full well on his own. There is a difference between someone doing something horrible through no fault of their own, and doing something horrible INTENTIONALLY for understandably sympathetic reasons.
Fulgrim had no choice. He was possessed by a daemon against his will and trapped within his own body. These circumstances warped his psyche into finally accepting it and giving into chaos, but what put him into that situation was ultimately outside of his control.
Primarchs like Perturabo and Angron on the other hand, knew full well what they were doing when they betrayed the emperor. Due to their tragic upbringing and life circumstances they had reasons WHY they betrayed the emperor, which are entirely understandable from their point of view, and are arguably even justifiable. But ultimately THEY chose to go down that path. Angron didn't control what happened to him on Nuceria, but he did let it affect his decision making.
This is of course, setting aside arguments about determinism and how much control people really have over their own mindsets.
Angron is tragic to me because of how little he had a say over his own life, especially compared to his brothers. Pretty much every other primarch managed to conquer and rule their home planet. Angron alone failed at that and was so physically and psychologically broken that the right thing the Emperor should have put him down and give him some measure of peace. Instead the Emperor decided to let him destroy his legion and set up a problem down the road.
We've all had that brush we love and at the end of its life tell ourselves "I guess it's still good for dry brushing" when in truth it is beyond even pushing textured paint around bases.
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Post by: Andykp
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Except now they aren't about a father and son relationship, but closer to the relationship Tim Allen had with his Black and Deckers.
They are now in the 42nd/41st ,illenium. In the setting of the series they are very much different shades of angry at your dad or desperate for attention off daddy issues.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Until False Gods was published in 2009, the following short text was all we knew about Horus' fall. It was published in 1st edition Space Marine in 1989 and went out of print in 1991 when the 2nd edition of the game was released:
in Space Marine, Games Workshop wrote:The adjutant came smartly to attention before the vast wooden desk.
"The local representatives are outside, my lord Warmaster" The Warmaster nodded once, without looking up from the stack of reports.
"Thank you, Bejaind. Make them comfortable and tell them I shall join them directly." Bejaind cleared his throat nervously. "Permission to speak freely... my lord?" This time, the Warmaster looked up. The adjutant tried to hold his ice-blue gaze, and failed.
"I know, Bejaind." said the Warmaster "You're not happy about this warrior lodge initiation.""So soon after your illness, my lord..." "From which I am fully recovered. I had the Apothacaria of five Space Marine chapters fighting for the honor of healing me. I've been back to full duties for a week now, with no ill-effects. Your concern is touching, but unnecessary." Bejaind shuffled uncomfortably.
"But, my lord, we don't know what's involved..."
"I have a reasonable idea. A little pain, to be endured without crying out; duels with a range of primitive weapons; trials of strength and speed; a few primitive rituals -little different from mystic warrior lodges in any other feral-world culture. You know Imperial policy; establish ties which can be exploited in later recruitment."
He paused.“This really is bothering you, isn't it?"
The adjutant tried to meet his gaze, and failed again.
“Listen, Bejaind. You are an outstanding staff officer; and I value your loyalty and concern. But why does one warrior-lodge initiation on one feral world disturb you so? I've gone through more than twenty of these rituals in the past. I've been a Space Marine and a commander of Marines for more than a century. You need have no fears for me."
"My lord, I.."
The Warmaster rose abruptly."Enough."
His voice was softer; more dangerous. "I am Horus, General and Warmaster. The first soldier of the Imperium, subordinate only to the Emperor himself. Shall it be said that Horus ran away from a hutfulof savages?"
Bejaind struggled for words."My lord... I have had - dreams..."His distress was genuine. Horus laid a hand on his shoulder
"Control yourself", he said gently. "You are excused for the rest of the day. Go to the Apothacarion for a psychological update. And then, perhaps, to the Chapel. A few hours' meditation will do you good.Unless you prefer to report these dreams and submit yourself to the Inquisition for psychic potential testing?"
Bejaind swallowed hard. "No, my lord."
"Well, then." Horus patted his shoulder gently.
"Go now, and we'll say no more. Meanwhile, I must meet the Elders of the Knife of Stone."
And in the warp, something smiled.
That's all. Hubris and ignorance, in one sentence of dialogue. And I still prefer it to all of False Gods. 
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Post by: Onething123456
Some other lore in 1st Edition talks about Horus' fall, but 1st Edition is outdated.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
So what? I still like it better than the current writing. Which is what this thread is about, is it not? The quality of the prose, not whether it's "current".
I made no comment as to whether the novels are "correct" or not, after all.
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Post by: Onething123456
 AndrewGPaul wrote:So what? I still like it better than the current writing. Which is what this thread is about, is it not? The quality of the prose, not whether it's "current".
I made no comment as to whether the novels are "correct" or not, after all.
Its better the current writing, but 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, even though I love 1st Edition.
But yes. I think you are right.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Dude, we know you love Rogue Trader/1st Edition40k, whatever. You don’t have to remind us you get a lore-boner every time somebody brings either title up.
Believe it or not, this is the only thread you’ve built that is worthwhile; I say that because it sparks a legit discussion. Some of us like the way it was written, others dislike it. I for one approve of the way it was written, as it takes a noble warrior and he has to be assaulted on all fronts in order to succumb to evil, meanwhile others hate it and find it weakly done. But it’s a legit discussion. This might sound crazy, but the most detrimental poster in this thread...is YOU! You add nothing to your own thread, except telling us how much you love RT/40k 1st ed. We get it. We talk around you because the topic is worthwhile, but the topic creator’s posts are often pointless to the topic at hand. We aren’t your soundboard. We’re members of a discussion forum. We’ve told you a bunch of ways how you can interact and be a productive member, and you keep regurgitating the same garbage over and over. So thank you for becoming my replacement of Comedy Central.
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Post by: Onething123456
timetowaste85 wrote:Dude, we know you love Rogue Trader/1st Edition40k, whatever. You don’t have to remind us you get a lore-boner every time somebody brings either title up.
Believe it or not, this is the only thread you’ve built that is worthwhile; I say that because it sparks a legit discussion. Some of us like the way it was written, others dislike it. I for one approve of the way it was written, as it takes a noble warrior and he has to be assaulted on all fronts in order to succumb to evil, meanwhile others hate it and find it weakly done. But it’s a legit discussion. This might sound crazy, but the most detrimental poster in this thread...is YOU! You add nothing to your own thread, except telling us how much you love RT/ 40k 1st ed. We get it. We talk around you because the topic is worthwhile, but the topic creator’s posts are often pointless to the topic at hand. We aren’t your soundboard. We’re members of a discussion forum. We’ve told you a bunch of ways how you can interact and be a productive member, and you keep regurgitating the same garbage over and over. So thank you for becoming my replacement of Comedy Central.
I was not expressing love for 1st Edition lore, I was saying that 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated and should not be used.
Anyway, back the topic of this thread. Most of the Horus Heresy books are poorly written, and Horus' fall is no different.
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Post by: Jpogfreak886
Onething123456 wrote: Anyway, back the topic of this thread. Most of the Horus Heresy books are poorly written, and Horus' fall is no different.
 I firstly wholeheartedly agree with TimeToWaste - this might be a moment for you (OneThing) to see how a functioning discussion happens on forums and learn from it.
Secondly, saying "back to the topic" and then reiterating a point you - and others - have made several times during this thread is not bringing the discussion back on topic in a constructive way.
Yes. We know you think it is poorly written. As poorly written as Anakin. Saying it again, with no additional discussion or reasoning or rebuttals or evidence does not contribute to the discussion at all. Reading that post told me no additional information that your previous 10+ posts in this thread have.
Take a moment and learn from what TimeToWaste - and MANY others - have said to you. Really read his comment and think about what it means before you do your classic "Alright/ whatever/ bye I need to go to the bathroom" and pretend to be the one who wants to bring the discussion back to the topic. You don't care about getting back to the discussion, because you don't ever contribute to it - you're avoiding legitimate criticism on how you interact on this forum.
Take the time to read the advice people have given you, rather than copy/pasting entire chapters from HH books, which you claim are so poorly written.
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Post by: Onething123456
 Jpogfreak886 wrote:Onething123456 wrote: Anyway, back the topic of this thread. Most of the Horus Heresy books are poorly written, and Horus' fall is no different.
I firstly wholeheartedly agree with TimeToWaste - this might be a moment for you (OneThing) to see how a functioning discussion happens on forums and learn from it.
Secondly, saying "back to the topic" and then reiterating a point you - and others - have made several times during this thread is not bringing the discussion back on topic in a constructive way.
Yes. We know you think it is poorly written. As poorly written as Anakin. Saying it again, with no additional discussion or reasoning or rebuttals or evidence does not contribute to the discussion at all. Reading that post told me no additional information that your previous 10+ posts in this thread have.
Take a moment and learn from what TimeToWaste - and MANY others - have said to you. Really read his comment and think about what it means before you do your classic "Alright/ whatever/ bye I need to go to the bathroom" and pretend to be the one who wants to bring the discussion back to the topic. You don't care about getting back to the discussion, because you don't ever contribute to it - you're avoiding legitimate criticism on how you interact on this forum.
Take the time to read the advice people have given you, rather than copy/pasting entire chapters from HH books, which you claim are so poorly written.
That's mostly what I was doing. What I should.
They are poorly written for the most part. I hope you are not saying I am wrong.
This Reddit thread explains it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/44wlbq/spoilers_false_gods_horus_a_weak_bitch/
I have been on topic for this thread for the most part.
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Post by: timetowaste85
*deep breath*...Nobody is saying you’re wrong. By that same token, nobody is saying you’re right. Do you know why? Because stories, poems, hell, ALL WRITING is subjective. I’m telling you that as a guy who went to college to be an English teacher with a focus on literature. Writing is entirely subjective. If people like your work, then it is good TO THEM! If people hate it, then it sucks; again, TO THEM! Putting up an article from Reddit that nobody on here cares about doesn’t make it a fact that the HH was poorly written. Nor does my enjoyment of the HH make it a fact that it’s well written. It is entirely subjective, and based on opinion. That is the ONLY fact of the matter. I don’t know how any of us can get that through to you, since you only care about what you have to say, and nothing else. If you expect any respect on here, you truthfully need to understand that your opinion is not fact. Please just TRY to understand what I’m saying.
None of us are trying to ridicule you or tear you apart; we’re frustratingly trying to help you become a productive member of the community.
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Post by: Onething123456
timetowaste85 wrote:*deep breath*...Nobody is saying you’re wrong. By that same token, nobody is saying you’re right. Do you know why? Because stories, poems, hell, ALL WRITING is subjective. I’m telling you that as a guy who went to college to be an English teacher with a focus on literature. Writing is entirely subjective. If people like your work, then it is good TO THEM! If people hate it, then it sucks; again, TO THEM! Putting up an article from Reddit that nobody on here cares about doesn’t make it a fact that the HH was poorly written. Nor does my enjoyment of the HH make it a fact that it’s well written. It is entirely subjective, and based on opinion. That is the ONLY fact of the matter. I don’t know how any of us can get that through to you, since you only care about what you have to say, and nothing else. If you expect any respect on here, you truthfully need to understand that your opinion is not fact. Please just TRY to understand what I’m saying.
None of us are trying to ridicule you or tear you apart; we’re frustratingly trying to help you become a productive member of the community.
Thank you for for that.
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Post by: Slipspace
Two things. First, right and wrong are subjective. Writing is an art form, a creative endeavour. As such its value and quality is subjective. Sure, in some cases opinion may be overwhelmingly in one camp or another, and there are certainly elements of any artistic creation that can be analysed on an objective level, but ultimately whether something is well written or not is often undefinable. So you saying it was poorly written doesn't make it so, just as someone else saying it was well written also doesn't make it so.
So, if we extend that notion a little bit we come to the second point: the random musings of some random dude on Reddit are no more or less convincing than the opinions of anyone on this board, or any other on the internet. A thread doesn't gain some special status just because it's on Reddit. Throughout this entire thread you've consistently made simple statements of your own opinion as if they were absolute facts, while providing "evidence" from Reddit, one of the most famous hives of scum and villainy on the internet. We don't care what someone wrote on Reddit, or Facebook or anywhere else. We want to know what you actually think. That requires an explanation of why you think what you do. That explanation needs to be in your own words, not "somebody on Reddit said so". That's how a discussion works.
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Post by: Nurglitch
So... is the statement that "right and wrong are subjective" itself subjective, or it is some kind of meta-moral Truth?
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