I think it's still missing a couple things. I see Grey Knight Wargear but not units, and I don't see generic space marines... Unless I'm missing something?
Edit: Actually I some of the space marines but they look like they were cut off... either that or Tac squads didn't get changed
Spoletta wrote: In general everything that was not seeing any play was buffed, while competitive choices stood as they were (except for a nerf here and there).
I can live with it.
Yes - at the end of the day the things giving me trouble didn't get cheaper, but my stuff did. It's a win overall, but a sad day for regular CSM. Why would you not pay 1 point extra for Chosen?
I wanted my Vanquisher Cannons to be good at killing tanks again (at least better than the regular Battle Cannon), but all I got was another point reduction.
If they know it's underperforming, why can't they just buff it?
ok thanks man. LoL interceptors costing the same as strikes and 39 termintors when other armies get theirs for 23.
Massive cuts on characters. Draigo is only 180, which is a steal. Psilencers and psycannons cut in half. GK termies still have force weapons. Not sure why CSM termies are 28 and loyalist are 23 though.
Crisis suits down to 27, DAMN this is amazing. Love it.
As an RnH player. Our militia still cost the same as guardsmen fething A, and even CA contains feth-ups for us. Our BS5+ squads technically don't get the 7 point plasma, but the 11 point.
Can anyone confirm the cost of Eldar Windriders? The leaked picture is annoyingly blurred just on their points. I can't tell if they are 15,16 or 18pts. I assume it's not 18 since that is their current cost.
At any rate, Spears are 24 and Twin cats went down to 2ppm (which affect all bikes and tanks) That makes the final cost of Spears 34ppm and Windriders with Twin-cats 17-18. Spears are still better but my Widriders might see the table again
I also doesn't appear that Heavy Wraithcannons went down at all, but the Suncannon did. HWC WK therefore is 415pts without shoulder guns (or an invul) Suncannon/Shield WK is 405 without shoulder guns
ok thanks man. LoL interceptors costing the same as strikes and 39 termintors when other armies get theirs for 23.
Massive cuts on characters. Draigo is only 180, which is a steal. Psilencers and psycannons cut in half. GK termies still have force weapons. Not sure why CSM termies are 28 and loyalist are 23 though.
I see that, but considering strikes and termintors and everything else was overcosted before and they now price right 2-3 HQ model per army, the drop is going to be felt a lot less then having 23 pts costed termintors. I mean even if they turn in to 30pts like the tzeench termintors there is still a 9pts gap between them and the GK ones.
The tzeench ones have good guns, and good survivability without stormshields.
I mean it is as if they sat down, checked what is the highest priced kit for a GK player to get and lowered the points of those. I am probablly salty now, I would like the changes more, if other factions didn't get significant points drops. Seems like for GK the post CA games are going to look the same only now they are going to have to buy more models to play 2000pts.
Shame the big boys like Titans aren't getting the price cut they needed. I know they're a bit out of scale for a 40k game, but they're just too overcosted for what they bring to the table.
Same with Custodes, the FW units for them are overwhelmingly overpriced (60pts for a Telemon CCW, then another 60pts for the mandatory Plasma/Flamer?) and yet no change there either?
ok thanks man. LoL interceptors costing the same as strikes and 39 termintors when other armies get theirs for 23.
Massive cuts on characters. Draigo is only 180, which is a steal. Psilencers and psycannons cut in half. GK termies still have force weapons. Not sure why CSM termies are 28 and loyalist are 23 though.
I see that, but considering strikes and termintors and everything else was overcosted before and they now price right 2-3 HQ model per army, the drop is going to be felt a lot less then having 23 pts costed termintors. I mean even if they turn in to 30pts like the tzeench termintors there is still a 9pts gap between them and the GK ones.
The tzeench ones have good guns, and good survivability without stormshields.
I mean it is as if they sat down, checked what is the highest priced kit for a GK player to get and lowered the points of those. I am probablly salty now, I would like the changes more, if other factions didn't get significant points drops. Seems like for GK the post CA games are going to look the same only now they are going to have to buy more models to play 2000pts.
SoTs are now 34 points with their sword - before guns. That means you're paying 5 points for the force weapon upgrade, which is roughly inline with what force weapons cost.
Trickstick wrote: So much went down in points that anything that stayed the same has effectively been increased. It's like some weird form of reverse inflation.
Totaly agree, it is mind blowing. But in way it is good, if good armies get their good stuff at more or less the same cost, and some stuff gets cheaper, then there is a chance to see more variaty among those armies.
ok thanks man. LoL interceptors costing the same as strikes and 39 termintors when other armies get theirs for 23.
Massive cuts on characters. Draigo is only 180, which is a steal. Psilencers and psycannons cut in half. GK termies still have force weapons. Not sure why CSM termies are 28 and loyalist are 23 though.
I see that, but considering strikes and termintors and everything else was overcosted before and they now price right 2-3 HQ model per army, the drop is going to be felt a lot less then having 23 pts costed termintors. I mean even if they turn in to 30pts like the tzeench termintors there is still a 9pts gap between them and the GK ones.
The tzeench ones have good guns, and good survivability without stormshields.
I mean it is as if they sat down, checked what is the highest priced kit for a GK player to get and lowered the points of those. I am probablly salty now, I would like the changes more, if other factions didn't get significant points drops. Seems like for GK the post CA games are going to look the same only now they are going to have to buy more models to play 2000pts.
SoTs are now 34 points with their sword - before guns. That means you're paying 5 points for the force weapon upgrade, which is roughly inline with what force weapons cost.
It's too much. SOT are still terrible too. At 16ppm though Rubrics are looking pretty good. Which is great because I like to run about 30 of them.
Galef wrote: Can anyone confirm the cost of Eldar Windriders? The leaked picture is annoyingly blurred just on their points. I can't tell if they are 15,16 or 18pts. I assume it's not 18 since that is their current cost.
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Did they go down in the previous CA? As this one appears to have the changes from the previous one too as there are DG units with a points cost that was adjusted last year in there.
Nazrak wrote: Also strikes me as very weird that Cultists have gone up to 5ppm but Guardsmen have stayed at 4.
This does upset me. So, for 1 point less, you get a better armour save, better Leadership, better and easier buffs, and access to more and better equipment?
SoTs are now 34 points with their sword - before guns. That means you're paying 5 points for the force weapon upgrade, which is roughly inline with what force weapons cost.
I dont know, GK don't have DP and tznagors to keep fire away from termintors, and the power weapons rarly get used. No speed buffs in GK armies. 39 with or without weapons is just too much, they maybe should cost 30pts to be good. I mean they made interceptors cost 21 pts and kept strikes with an unchanged point cost.
Plus we are talking about units that were bad before, but tzeench armies don't have to run termintors. For GK termintors make up 50% of the troops they can take. And if strikes cost 19pts and interceptors 21, there is no sense in taking GK troops either. They more or less turned GK in to Draigo+NDK. I mean they even kept the non GM NDK at the same cost while droping the cost of the chapter master version, instead of at least lowering the cost of both of fixing their rules.
Trickstick wrote: So much went down in points that anything that stayed the same has effectively been increased. It's like some weird form of reverse inflation.
Totaly agree, it is mind blowing. But in way it is good, if good armies get their good stuff at more or less the same cost, and some stuff gets cheaper, then there is a chance to see more variaty among those armies.
The cynical side of me says GW does this to sell more models... cheaper models = more models to hit 2000 points.
The hobbyist side of me says this is awesome, because games with more models look better and are less reliant on individual dice rolls, like if I can take redundant units to do a job then it's less likely both will flub their rolls.
Maybe it is me, but I’m not seeing the page that would have the Infantry Squad points value on it. We have the start of AM points values followed by the end of FWAM point values.
alextroy wrote: Maybe it is me, but I’m not seeing the page that would have the Infantry Squad points value on it. We have the start of AM points values followed by the end of FWAM point values.
Next page is around, no infantry squad on it. First entry is Lord Commissar.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:The Skitarii Arquebus went down to 15. That's even more than I hoped for. That means a total of 115 for ten Rangers with 3 snipers.
Honestly as someone who loves Skitarii I almost shed a tear.
So did I.
anyway for ad mech some high lights include - breachers down 10, destroyers 15, dunecrawler 20, servitors up!!! 3, infiltrators down 4, ruststalkers down 5, dominus down 35, Cawl down 50, plus general decreases for weapons.
So for me Destroyers, Dunecrawlers, Dominus and Cawl are the winners by far.
Also Why the hell did Servitors go up! they are useless right now. The only thing I can think of is that they are being changed to reflect this points increase.
Regarding the fact that Cultists went up in points but Guardsmen didn't, I think the reason was based less on inter-faction balance and more on intra-faction balance.
One of the articles on the Warhammer page mentioned that Cultists were basically being taken in place of all other Chaos troops, hence why they went up in price. My guess is that GW thinks that Chaos Space Marines (or variants thereof) should be the default troop choice for CSMs. However, since Cultists were apparently stealing the spotlight, GW increased their cost to try and correct this.
In contrast, Infantry Squads *are* the default troops for Imperial Guard. So the fact that a lot of them are being used is less likely to be seen as an issue.
(Not defending this logic, just trying to explain what I'm pretty sure is the reasoning behind this discrepancy.)
Incidentally, the best way to significantly reduce the number of Infantry Squads in the game would not be a small point increase but instead to prevent CPs from being shared between allied factions. However, GW appears to have no interest whatsoever in tackling the issue of Soup.
Xenomancers wrote: Gk did need a 5% reduction in overall army cost. They needed about a 30% reduction.
180 point draigo...okay - now hes auto include - that is basically the only change that matters.
The GMDK went down a lot as well if you factor in weapons reductions, Pre chapter approved a GMDK with Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon (no other upgrades) was 295pts now its 248, so that's pretty decent
Xenomancers wrote: Gk did need a 5% reduction in overall army cost. They needed about a 30% reduction.
180 point draigo...okay - now hes auto include - that is basically the only change that matters.
The GMDK went down a lot as well if you factor in weapons reductions, Pre chapter approved a GMDK with Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon (no other upgrades) was 295pts now its 248, so that's pretty decent
Incidentally, the best way to significantly reduce the number of Infantry Squads in the game would not be a small point increase but instead to prevent CPs from being shared between allied factions. However, GW appears to have no interest whatsoever in tackling the issue of Soup.
The best way to fix this would be to bring back platoons, so IG infantry squads can no longer be taken by themselves, but only as a platoon made up of 2-5 infantry squads and a command section.
Actual guard players would still get the cheap infantry they need, but guard battallions for cheap CP's would no longer be a thing.
Galef wrote: Can anyone confirm the cost of Eldar Windriders? The leaked picture is annoyingly blurred just on their points. I can't tell if they are 15,16 or 18pts. I assume it's not 18 since that is their current cost.
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Incidentally, the best way to significantly reduce the number of Infantry Squads in the game would not be a small point increase but instead to prevent CPs from being shared between allied factions. However, GW appears to have no interest whatsoever in tackling the issue of Soup.
The best way to fix this would be to bring back platoons, so IG infantry squads can no longer be taken by themselves, but only as a platoon made up of 2-5 infantry squads and a command section.
Actual guard players would still get the cheap infantry they need, but guard battallions for cheap CP's would no longer be a thing.
That would destroy the ability of Guard to take brigades, which is kind of their thing.
Broadly speaking, I don't think there's any units that GW ruined, there's a lot that needed help that didn't get it or that got trivial changes that dont actually really help, and there are some real head scratchers (lol 25pt reduction on guard tank commanders), but overall mostly good changes that will help open up more units to viability (love the changes to some of the Daemon Engines, Chimeras, etc)
Feels like another muddled afterthought on the whole, but as far as such things go, its on the better side.
chnmmr wrote: I’m not seeing how the GKs are the ‘big point drop winners’ GW said they would be.
well if you ever wanted to run crow in any of your imperial armies then he now costs a lot fewer points. That guy who won some tournament with a soup list that run 3 interceptor squads, sob and stuff, now has some free point to play with. So it is not like no points were droped. Plus in the warhammer community site when they were talking about point cost drops they said that people that collect paladins or purfires would be happy, not that people that try to play with them would. And the GM in NDK did go down in points.
alextroy wrote: Maybe it is me, but I’m not seeing the page that would have the Infantry Squad points value on it. We have the start of AM points values followed by the end of FWAM point values.
Next page is around, no infantry squad on it. First entry is Lord Commissar.
You're saying that page is somewhere on this list of images?
Vaktathi wrote: Broadly speaking, I don't think there's any units that GW ruined, there's a lot that needed help that didn't get it or that got trivial changes that dont actually really help, and there are some real head scratchers (lol 25pt reduction on guard tank commanders), but overall mostly good changes that will help open up more units to viability (love the changes to some of the Daemon Engines, Chimeras, etc)
Feels like another muddled afterthought on the whole, but as far as such things go, its on the better side.
would you pay 19pts for a GK strike, if a GK interceptor costs 21pts?
Nid changes were spot on, as always our codex wins in balance. Only dubious point is the malanthrope, i think that it going bank to the old cost is a mistake.
Spoletta wrote: Nid changes were spot on, as always our codex wins in balance. Only dubious point is the malanthrope, i think that it going bank to the old cost is a mistake.
Looking again the tyranid FW page is missing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Ahh so cents are at 40. Exactly where I wanted them. GJGW.
Spoletta wrote: Nid changes were spot on, as always our codex wins in balance. Only dubious point is the malanthrope, i think that it going bank to the old cost is a mistake.
Is that where the Malanthrope is going? Didn't see it in the links.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nice drop on Chainfists.
And my marines will really like the new Plasma Cannon cost.
Grav Cannon isn't there, so stays at current price? Very curious.
Thanks.
For some reason trying to do it in my head was proving impossible.
My initial thoughts are that Ad Mech and Necrons have done well - whether its enough to be competitive remains to be seen.
A world where tacticals are 13, intercessors are 17 (declared earlier, but still lol) but Guardsmen remain 4 is a harsh one.
Also DE are clearly the master race (did anyone ever doubt it?) because they seem to be working exactly as intended.
Galef wrote: Can anyone confirm the cost of Eldar Windriders? The leaked picture is annoyingly blurred just on their points. I can't tell if they are 15,16 or 18pts. I assume it's not 18 since that is their current cost.
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It's 16.
Thanks. Combined with Twin-cats being 2ppm and Scatterlasers being 7ppm now, that's a 5ppm drop on WRs overall. Shuricannon WRs only went down 2ppm overall and are now the most expensive ones, but that makes perfect sense as they are the best loadout.
SoTs are now 34 points with their sword - before guns. That means you're paying 5 points for the force weapon upgrade, which is roughly inline with what force weapons cost.
I dont know, GK don't have DP and tznagors to keep fire away from termintors, and the power weapons rarly get used. No speed buffs in GK armies. 39 with or without weapons is just too much, they maybe should cost 30pts to be good. I mean they made interceptors cost 21 pts and kept strikes with an unchanged point cost.
Plus we are talking about units that were bad before, but tzeench armies don't have to run termintors. For GK termintors make up 50% of the troops they can take. And if strikes cost 19pts and interceptors 21, there is no sense in taking GK troops either. They more or less turned GK in to Draigo+NDK. I mean they even kept the non GM NDK at the same cost while droping the cost of the chapter master version, instead of at least lowering the cost of both of fixing their rules.
You have GMDKs which are down at least 26 when they were already decent. Fisto-AC dreadnoughts are 119 now (Venerables 139). Strikes are also a decent cost, but I get hating having to pay for force weapons when you might not want to.
Also, why are the Bolt Pistol and Chainsword listed if they're staying at 0?
Combi weapons are the same cost as just taking the special. -Hmmm.
Edit:Scratch that. Just Plasma is the same price, the other Combis are +1 pt over corresponding special.
You have GMDKs which are down at least 26 when they were already decent. Fisto-AC dreadnoughts are 119 now (Venerables 139). Strikes are also a decent cost, but I get hating having to pay for force weapons when you might not want to.
I don't think that strikes cost ok. 19pts when interceptors cost 2 pts more, that is like having jumppacks on tacticals for 1 point. Never seen anyone run a AC dread, I know that AC are better then psycannons for every type of unit, but am sure that in a world where plasma just got cheaper any type of elite unit without good speed or super resiliance is going to do well.
Right now if I take my army and use the updates I have points enough take an AC dread, I don't think It would make my army much better. But who knows maybe it is. It is not like tested the changes. But I really expected at least flat 15% points drop on everything. Maybe the CA is going to have some rules update for GK or something.
Daedalus81 wrote: Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.
I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.
I feel like, at this point, that it's worth mentioning we are more likely to see an updated Datasheet for the Infantry Squads than we are to see a nerf.
And that's a Good Thing IMO. IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Biasn wrote: Wouldnt it be cool if the designers could give an overview on why they made these changes? Its hard to understand some point updates anyways
These changes seem very random. No drop to Tacticals or basic CSM, no increase in IS but they did adjust the points of plasma and melta, but still have melta as more expensive. The Storm Shield change is pretty stupid too. Most units with access to a SS take them where they can, so if anything I'd have argued they needed increased, not massively decreased in cost. I couldn't see any Drukhari points changes either. Have they been left untouched?
It feels like we might be missing something here. Maybe there are more sweeping datasheet changes involved somewhere, but even then I'd still expect adjust points costs to be in the list for those units too. If we aren't missing anything and that's the list, let's just say I'm as underwhelmed as it's possible to be.
Insectum7 wrote: Also, why are the Bolt Pistol and Chainsword listed if they're staying at 0?
Combi weapons are the same cost as just taking the special. -Hmmm.
Edit:Scratch that. Just Plasma is the same price, the other Combis are +1 pt over corresponding special.
I can't answer the Chainsword, but regarding the Bolt Pistol, at least for Deathwatch, is they were a point each.
Now that they're at zero, I can finally do my dream of JUMPPACK COWBOY SUPER SOLDIERS.
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable.
Yeah I just saw that, 2ppm for a 3++ is insane
Exactly. They just need to fix the price on the Mortars. The question is what IS that price?
Also in completely in disagreement with the Storm Shield change. I'd have been okay with 4 points, and 3 points is super pushing it. At 2 it's almost an auto-include.
I admire GW's consistency though, they've consistently kneecapped Chaos with every update to the game, whether by FAQ or CA, so at least I know what to expect going forward.
Insectum7 wrote: Also, why are the Bolt Pistol and Chainsword listed if they're staying at 0?
Combi weapons are the same cost as just taking the special. -Hmmm.
Edit:Scratch that. Just Plasma is the same price, the other Combis are +1 pt over corresponding special.
I can't answer the Chainsword, but regarding the Bolt Pistol, at least for Deathwatch, is they were a point each.
Now that they're at zero, I can finally do my dream of JUMPPACK COWBOY SUPER SOLDIERS.
Ok, that sorta makes sense. Basic Marines it's was 0 though. Strange that they'd print it the way they did.
Insectum7 wrote: Also, why are the Bolt Pistol and Chainsword listed if they're staying at 0?
Combi weapons are the same cost as just taking the special. -Hmmm.
Edit:Scratch that. Just Plasma is the same price, the other Combis are +1 pt over corresponding special.
I can't answer the Chainsword, but regarding the Bolt Pistol, at least for Deathwatch, is they were a point each.
Now that they're at zero, I can finally do my dream of JUMPPACK COWBOY SUPER SOLDIERS.
Ok, that sorta makes sense. Basic Marines it's was 0 though. Strange that they'd print it the way they did.
Eihnlazer wrote: Im currently assuming that if a model is not included in CA this year you would still use the points from last years CA.
If not, and they really dropped the malanthrope back to 90 points, nids are in a REALLY good spot.
We haven't seen the page with Forgeworld Tau or Tyranid units yet though, but if not included there then Malenthropes will stay at their 140 from last year.
Eihnlazer wrote: Im currently assuming that if a model is not included in CA this year you would still use the points from last years CA.
If not, and they really dropped the malanthrope back to 90 points, nids are in a REALLY good spot.
We haven't seen the page with Forgeworld Tau or Tyranid units yet though, but if not included there then Malenthropes will stay at their 140 from last year.
This is not how it works since all points previously changed in CA 2017 were reprint here. Malanthrope is 90 back again (and the cost is fair since it's basically a Neurothrope that trades -1 3" bubble for 3++ and 2 Psychic Powers)
We'll be able to create an actual new Ocean if and when Infantry squads both receive no point change and no datasheet change, and the warmth that it will fill me with will keep me warm all winter.
ok thanks man. LoL interceptors costing the same as strikes and 39 termintors when other armies get theirs for 23.
I suspect our termies are cheaper because they don't carry force weapons or sport psychic powers.
there is no efficient way to use force weapons on GK termintors and the psychic powers would have to god like for the difference to be 16pts. But I am no game designers, it looks odd to me, maybe GW is right, but their track record with GK isn't that good. I know that plasma got cheaper, and that SS cost less and both are a change GK are not going to like.
I don't understand why Brother-Captain Stern is literally cheaper than an ordinary Brother-Captain.
Stern already has his wargear, the generic doesn't so if you take them stock Stern is 7 point cheaper. He can cast 2 psychic powers compared to the generic's one.
Are they just admitting his special smite sucks more than the generic?
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Because it's stupid that they've had access to them from the outset. And people used them before, they just were (as mentioned) not really a functional weapon.
Speaking for myself, the reason why Infantry Squads shouldn't have access to them is that this was always bound to become an issue. Also because it's stupid to have ANY heavy weapons team "embedded" in the squad like we have here. Yeah yeah yeah real life blah blah blah.
But Guard don't get a "Combat Squads" ability where we can park the HWT and 3 other guys in the back while the remainder go after an objective. I've said repeatedly that Infantry Squads could have been fixed as a potential issue here by simply removing HWTs from the IS and instead giving them and Veteran Squads access to 'Heavy Weapons' like Heavy Stubbers, Missile Launchers, and other smaller, man-portable stuff that don't need a crew to serve them.
Quickjager wrote: I don't understand why Brother-Captain Stern is literally cheaper than an ordinary Brother-Captain.
Stern already has his wargear, the generic doesn't so if you take them stock Stern is 7 point cheaper. He can cast 2 psychic powers compared to the generic's one.
Are they just admitting his special smite sucks more than the generic?
Could be because he's stuck with a particular Warlord Trait and then no Relic access.
You can't price on opportunity though. You have to price on realism.
Eihnlazer wrote: Im currently assuming that if a model is not included in CA this year you would still use the points from last years CA.
If not, and they really dropped the malanthrope back to 90 points, nids are in a REALLY good spot.
We haven't seen the page with Forgeworld Tau or Tyranid units yet though, but if not included there then Malenthropes will stay at their 140 from last year.
This is not how it works since all points previously changed in CA 2017 were reprint here. Malanthrope is 90 back again (and the cost is fair since it's basically a Neurothrope that trades -1 3" bubble for 3++ and 2 Psychic Powers)
Why are you making gak up when we haven't seen the Tyranid FW page yet?
And personally I feel the Malonthrope should be 120.
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Because it's stupid that they've had access to them from the outset. And people used them before, they just were (as mentioned) not really a functional weapon.
Speaking for myself, the reason why Infantry Squads shouldn't have access to them is that this was always bound to become an issue. Also because it's stupid to have ANY heavy weapons team "embedded" in the squad like we have here. Yeah yeah yeah real life blah blah blah.
But Guard don't get a "Combat Squads" ability where we can park the HWT and 3 other guys in the back while the remainder go after an objective. I've said repeatedly that Infantry Squads could have been fixed as a potential issue here by simply removing HWTs from the IS and instead giving them and Veteran Squads access to 'Heavy Weapons' like Heavy Stubbers, Missile Launchers, and other smaller, man-portable stuff that don't need a crew to serve them.
So for consistency, you don't think they should have access to even Lascannons?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also you really don't need Combat Squad when the total of your Special Weapon + Heavy Weapon Infantry squad is barely over the bare Tactical Squad. You can move forward all you like.
Because Heavy Weapons embedded in Infantry Squads has been part of how humans have fought wars for about a hundred years? And has been the dominant form of infantry use for most of that hundred years?
Now that I think about it I'm kind of excited about the reductions to Veterans and Sternguard too, I can finally put Heavy Flamers on a regular infantry squad without feeling like a durn fool for paying 18 ppm for the dudes.
Also, am I the only one who noticed Astares Grenade Launchers? I can't think of anything that can carry that.
Bharring wrote: Because Heavy Weapons embedded in Infantry Squads has been part of how humans have fought wars for about a hundred years? And has been the dominant form of infantry use for most of that hundred years?
Dont you dare imply they should, can, or ever have been allowed anything.
Quickjager wrote: I don't understand why Brother-Captain Stern is literally cheaper than an ordinary Brother-Captain.
Stern already has his wargear, the generic doesn't so if you take them stock Stern is 7 point cheaper. He can cast 2 psychic powers compared to the generic's one.
Are they just admitting his special smite sucks more than the generic?
GW wants to get rid of GK resin models that didn't sell well in 8th?
Quickjager wrote: I don't understand why Brother-Captain Stern is literally cheaper than an ordinary Brother-Captain.
Stern already has his wargear, the generic doesn't so if you take them stock Stern is 7 point cheaper. He can cast 2 psychic powers compared to the generic's one.
Are they just admitting his special smite sucks more than the generic?
Could be because he's stuck with a particular Warlord Trait and then no Relic access.
You can't price on opportunity though. You have to price on realism.
Yea its just... weird though. Like with the HQ price cuts we are always going to have a second HQ anyway. Most likely 3-5 HQs per army now. So it is not like that Warlord Trait was a opportunity cost.
Quickjager wrote: I don't understand why Brother-Captain Stern is literally cheaper than an ordinary Brother-Captain.
Stern already has his wargear, the generic doesn't so if you take them stock Stern is 7 point cheaper. He can cast 2 psychic powers compared to the generic's one.
Are they just admitting his special smite sucks more than the generic?
GW wants to get rid of GK resin models that didn't sell well in 8th?
My Stern is metal so I don't go that problem, lol.
also chaos looks to have had a lot of points drops
I was going to retire mine for a bit if there were good point drops on regular dreads. But now I'm going to keep him around on top of THB/ML dreadnoughts clocking in at 97 points.
GW are ass if they think these point reductions mean anything especially after EVERYTHING ELSE got a similar point reduction.
Not EVERYTHING ELSE got a points drop. Just the stuff that was terrible that nobody played. It should make the arena bigger, which could in turn result in GK coming out of the woodwork to find a decent Niche somewhere.
Sure, they won't be a super power army, but you might actually be able to win some games now.
also chaos looks to have had a lot of points drops
I was going to retire mine for a bit if there were good point drops on regular dreads. But now I'm going to keep him around on top of THB/ML dreadnoughts clocking in at 97 points.
I have 3 contemptors and 3 Ven dreads that I run as the core of my less competitive space marine army. I just got an entire other dreadnought back in points.
So for consistency, you don't think they should have access to even Lascannons?
In Infantry or Veteran Squads? Absolutely not.
ANYTHING "crew-served" should be cut from those two units, immediately, or given a "fire OR move" requirement, as Heavy Weapons have had in previous editions.
Also you really don't need Combat Squad when the total of your Special Weapon + Heavy Weapon Infantry squad is barely over the bare Tactical Squad. You can move forward all you like.
The point. You've missed it.
The point wasn't about the actual kitted out points value total--it's that the HWTs shouldn't be able to move and fire if the squad did. That's why I keep talking about how we need to see the weapons split out or given the ability to 'detach' and get treated as Characters or get a Shield Drone-esque save when non-HWTs are nearby.
The Newman wrote: Now that I think about it I'm kind of excited about the reductions to Veterans and Sternguard too, I can finally put Heavy Flamers on a regular infantry squad without feeling like a durn fool for paying 18 ppm for the dudes.
Also, am I the only one who noticed Astares Grenade Launchers? I can't think of anything that can carry that.
GW are ass if they think these point reductions mean anything especially after EVERYTHING ELSE got a similar point reduction.
Not EVERYTHING ELSE got a points drop. Just the stuff that was terrible that nobody played. It should make the arena bigger, which could in turn result in GK coming out of the woodwork to find a decent Niche somewhere.
Sure, they won't be a super power army, but you might actually be able to win some games now.
Dude you know that is not how it works. A castellan should cost more points. All the top tier builds people use now exist right now. Sure people may experiment with stuff that got cheaper, but they will base it around the good core of lists they already had. GK had no good core. You thinking having 4-5 termintors more in a GK list is suddenly going to make it better, specialy when some changes really do help some units to be good? And all of this is before the new book where GK get no new formations or new rules, while most of the other armies do.
The only thing , and I hope am wrong here, that changes with this CA is that other armies now have more ways to beat GK. While GK players can buy more models only to find out that their army is still much weaker then other armies.
Bharring wrote: Because Heavy Weapons embedded in Infantry Squads has been part of how humans have fought wars for about a hundred years? And has been the dominant form of infantry use for most of that hundred years?
Embedded in != Always With the infantry squads.
That's why I made the Combat Squads reference--if they were able to split off but had some kind of penalty for moving that isn't just -1 to Hit, it would make for a meaningful thing.
As it stands now? It's dumb and needs to be fixed. It's also why Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons Squads are kinda pointless right now.
The Newman wrote: Now that I think about it I'm kind of excited about the reductions to Veterans and Sternguard too, I can finally put Heavy Flamers on a regular infantry squad without feeling like a durn fool for paying 18 ppm for the dudes.
Also, am I the only one who noticed Astares Grenade Launchers? I can't think of anything that can carry that.
I think that's the intercessor's 'one per unit' weapon. EDIT: Nope, scout bikes.
So for consistency, you don't think they should have access to even Lascannons?
In Infantry or Veteran Squads? Absolutely not.
ANYTHING "crew-served" should be cut from those two units, immediately, or given a "fire OR move" requirement, as Heavy Weapons have had in previous editions.
Also you really don't need Combat Squad when the total of your Special Weapon + Heavy Weapon Infantry squad is barely over the bare Tactical Squad. You can move forward all you like.
The point. You've missed it.
The point wasn't about the actual kitted out points value total--it's that the HWTs shouldn't be able to move and fire if the squad did. That's why I keep talking about how we need to see the weapons split out or given the ability to 'detach' and get treated as Characters or get a Shield Drone-esque save when non-HWTs are nearby.
I just wanted to know if you were consistent. That's all.
The Newman wrote: Now that I think about it I'm kind of excited about the reductions to Veterans and Sternguard too, I can finally put Heavy Flamers on a regular infantry squad without feeling like a durn fool for paying 18 ppm for the dudes.
Also, am I the only one who noticed Astares Grenade Launchers? I can't think of anything that can carry that.
I think that's the intercessor's 'one per unit' weapon.
That's the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. As stated by Slayer, Scout Bikes can use the Astartes Grenade Launcher.
GW are ass if they think these point reductions mean anything especially after EVERYTHING ELSE got a similar point reduction.
Not EVERYTHING ELSE got a points drop. Just the stuff that was terrible that nobody played. It should make the arena bigger, which could in turn result in GK coming out of the woodwork to find a decent Niche somewhere.
Sure, they won't be a super power army, but you might actually be able to win some games now.
Dude you know that is not how it works. A castellan should cost more points. All the top tier builds people use now exist right now. Sure people may experiment with stuff that got cheaper, but they will base it around the good core of lists they already had. GK had no good core. You thinking having 4-5 termintors more in a GK list is suddenly going to make it better, specialy when some changes really do help some units to be good? And all of this is before the new book where GK get no new formations or new rules, while most of the other armies do.
The only thing , and I hope am wrong here, that changes with this CA is that other armies now have more ways to beat GK. While GK players can buy more models only to find out that their army is still much weaker then other armies.
It is absolutely how that works. Every points change has a knock-on effect throughout the entire game. You don't have to suddenly drop one thing enough that it can go toe to toe with a Castellan by itself to create an entire warping of the meta. That would be ridiculous.
Will these point changes unseat the Castellan as the boogeyman wanna-be competitive players wet themselves over? Probably not, but it could lead to shifts in army doctrine that make it less effective against people who know what they're doing. Or it could do nothing. We won't know until probably around LVO with the speed the meta adjusts.
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable.
Yeah I just saw that, 2ppm for a 3++ is insane
Exactly. They just need to fix the price on the Mortars. The question is what IS that price?
Also in completely in disagreement with the Storm Shield change. I'd have been okay with 4 points, and 3 points is super pushing it. At 2 it's almost an auto-include.
Are you kidding? 2 point 3++ saves is auto include. It was auto include at 5 points. One of the dumbest changes I've ever seen. DW is pretty OP now.
And CWE actually have cheaper min troops than SM now. So that complaint we always hear is actually true - Scouts are 55pts for a 5man, Storm Guardians 48pts for an 8man.
GW are ass if they think these point reductions mean anything especially after EVERYTHING ELSE got a similar point reduction.
Not EVERYTHING ELSE got a points drop. Just the stuff that was terrible that nobody played. It should make the arena bigger, which could in turn result in GK coming out of the woodwork to find a decent Niche somewhere.
Sure, they won't be a super power army, but you might actually be able to win some games now.
Dude you know that is not how it works. A castellan should cost more points. All the top tier builds people use now exist right now. Sure people may experiment with stuff that got cheaper, but they will base it around the good core of lists they already had. GK had no good core. You thinking having 4-5 termintors more in a GK list is suddenly going to make it better, specialy when some changes really do help some units to be good? And all of this is before the new book where GK get no new formations or new rules, while most of the other armies do.
The only thing , and I hope am wrong here, that changes with this CA is that other armies now have more ways to beat GK. While GK players can buy more models only to find out that their army is still much weaker then other armies.
It is absolutely how that works. Every points change has a knock-on effect throughout the entire game. You don't have to suddenly drop one thing enough that it can go toe to toe with a Castellan by itself to create an entire warping of the meta. That would be ridiculous.
Will these point changes unseat the Castellan as the boogeyman wanna-be competitive players wet themselves over? Probably not, but it could lead to shifts in army doctrine that make it less effective against people who know what they're doing. Or it could do nothing. We won't know until probably around LVO with the speed the meta adjusts.
1 more squad of Terminators/StrikeSquad/Paladins is not going to cause me to win more games, it certainly isn't going to cause us to go up in rankings, whereas we save maybe 200ish points in a 2000 point list everyone is already ahead of us in units that didn't get nerfed. You can stop acting like this is better relative to anything else.
GW are ass if they think these point reductions mean anything especially after EVERYTHING ELSE got a similar point reduction.
Not EVERYTHING ELSE got a points drop. Just the stuff that was terrible that nobody played. It should make the arena bigger, which could in turn result in GK coming out of the woodwork to find a decent Niche somewhere.
Sure, they won't be a super power army, but you might actually be able to win some games now.
Dude you know that is not how it works. A castellan should cost more points. All the top tier builds people use now exist right now. Sure people may experiment with stuff that got cheaper, but they will base it around the good core of lists they already had. GK had no good core. You thinking having 4-5 termintors more in a GK list is suddenly going to make it better, specialy when some changes really do help some units to be good? And all of this is before the new book where GK get no new formations or new rules, while most of the other armies do.
The only thing , and I hope am wrong here, that changes with this CA is that other armies now have more ways to beat GK. While GK players can buy more models only to find out that their army is still much weaker then other armies.
Purgators w/ Psycannons are 26 now - 123 for a squad. 16 S7 AP1 shots for 123 points boosted to S8 AP2 plus baby smite. An Assback is 114 for 12 S6 AP1. Obviously one is way more durable, but they are somewhat similar in role.
They they dropped the stratagem to 1CP you'll be in a decent place. If they boosted the range on psycannons then even more so.
Instead of being defeatist you should write up some lists to try.
It is absolutely how that works. Every points change has a knock-on effect throughout the entire game. You don't have to suddenly drop one thing enough that it can go toe to toe with a Castellan by itself to create an entire warping of the meta. That would be ridiculous.
Will these point changes unseat the Castellan as the boogeyman wanna-be competitive players wet themselves over? Probably not, but it could lead to shifts in army doctrine that make it less effective against people who know what they're doing. Or it could do nothing. We won't know until probably around LVO with the speed the meta adjusts.
What are you talking about? LVO placings? how is this an example of anything. that what some a bit different version of eldar will beat out a castellan list, or that maybe a tyranid army will rise to the top. How the heck does this change anything for GK. GW could have done 0 changes, just left the GK point drops to draigo and the GMNDK, and I would still wonder if it is enough of a change to make GK a valid list. But all armies got changes, everyone got point drops on something. GK changes would have to be substential to make a deep impact, but , this is my opinion, they are not. So an eldar or tyranid players can now try out new things. Good for them. You think after the changes people are going to try out purificators or termintors in GK lists ? Specialy with plasma becoming cheaper.
GW are ass if they think these point reductions mean anything especially after EVERYTHING ELSE got a similar point reduction.
Not EVERYTHING ELSE got a points drop. Just the stuff that was terrible that nobody played. It should make the arena bigger, which could in turn result in GK coming out of the woodwork to find a decent Niche somewhere.
Sure, they won't be a super power army, but you might actually be able to win some games now.
Dude you know that is not how it works. A castellan should cost more points. All the top tier builds people use now exist right now. Sure people may experiment with stuff that got cheaper, but they will base it around the good core of lists they already had. GK had no good core. You thinking having 4-5 termintors more in a GK list is suddenly going to make it better, specialy when some changes really do help some units to be good? And all of this is before the new book where GK get no new formations or new rules, while most of the other armies do.
The only thing , and I hope am wrong here, that changes with this CA is that other armies now have more ways to beat GK. While GK players can buy more models only to find out that their army is still much weaker then other armies.
Purgators w/ Psycannons are 26 now - 123 for a squad. 16 S7 AP1 shots for 123 points boosted to S8 AP2 plus baby smite. An Assback is 114 for 12 S6 AP1. Obviously one is way more durable, but they are somewhat similar in role.
They they dropped the stratagem to 1CP you'll be in a decent place. If they boosted the range on psycannons then even more so.
Instead of being defeatist you should write up some lists to try.
You'd still be better off using the Psilencer in that scenario.
BaconCatBug wrote: Infantry Squad remaining 4ppm shows GW has no clue how to balance and has no clue as to what is going on with the game.
Like the internets notions around balance are something to go by.
I personally thought IS at 5 would have been reasonable.
I can't say for sure if GW has something that makes that irrelevant. I'll probably still be a bit disappointed about it, but there are enough good changes that I don't care and they have plenty of chances in the future to revisit it.
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable.
Yeah I just saw that, 2ppm for a 3++ is insane
Exactly. They just need to fix the price on the Mortars. The question is what IS that price?
Also in completely in disagreement with the Storm Shield change. I'd have been okay with 4 points, and 3 points is super pushing it. At 2 it's almost an auto-include.
Are you kidding? 2 point 3++ saves is auto include. It was auto include at 5 points. One of the dumbest changes I've ever seen. DW is pretty OP now.
I say "almost" because I don't feel like buying a lot more models.
At least at 5 points it was something you tossed around here and there for additional protection. Now for the same price before Chapter Approved your Vets have more survivability than LotD. Super stupid.
Purgators w/ Psycannons are 26 now - 123 for a squad. 16 S7 AP1 shots for 123 points boosted to S8 AP2 plus baby smite. An Assback is 114 for 12 S6 AP1. Obviously one is way more durable, but they are somewhat similar in role.
They they dropped the stratagem to 1CP you'll be in a decent place. If they boosted the range on psycannons then even more so.
Instead of being defeatist you should write up some lists to try.
They don't have any stratagems, and GK have no good 1CP ones. SoB got a 1CP one. Plus I only have termintors, am not going to buy razorbacks or two boxs of strike squads to get one squad of puragors, just for GW to nerf them after a month or two like they did at the start of 8th. They should have fixed termintors. And not make people spend more money, when they made people waste their money on stuff that doesn't work. If someone bought a non working phone, they have the right to return it, but GW writes you back that that they are "sorry you feel that way" and that you can always paint them. The fethers.
BaconCatBug wrote: Infantry Squad remaining 4ppm shows GW has no clue how to balance and has no clue as to what is going on with the game.
Like the internets notions around balance are something to go by.
No, but there's some definite hard facts that we can go bye;
#1 - In a straight up fight with no auras, stratagems, other units, etc. Guardsmen will win against Cultists. Why? Because they have a better armour save, and better Ld.
#2 - Infantry Squads also have access to a greater diversity of weapons, including weapons that are able to deal with enemy unit types far more efficiently than what Cultists are capable of dealing with (aka; "anti-monster/vehicle weapons" like Plasma, Melta, Lascannon, Autocannon).
#3 - Infantry Squads have a stronger link of purpose in conjunction with their army design than Cultists do. Infantry Squads hold objectives, and bubble-wrap units that are able to make game-influencing actions at long distance. As Chaos is a much more close-combat focused army, Cultists are rarely bubble-wrapping more expensive units. Both units are being taken because they are an inexpensive way of filling out force-organization slots, but Infantry Squads have additional functionality in relation to the rest of their army.
For all three of these reasons, each on their own, Guardsmen should cost the same, if not more than a Cultist.
BaconCatBug wrote: Infantry Squad remaining 4ppm shows GW has no clue how to balance and has no clue as to what is going on with the game.
Like the internets notions around balance are something to go by.
I personally thought IS at 5 would have been reasonable.
I can't say for sure if GW has something that makes that irrelevant. I'll probably still be a bit disappointed about it, but there are enough good changes that I don't care and they have plenty of chances in the future to revisit it.
Given that the "proof-comparisons" people did were constantly vs. Marines, and the fact that so much of the marine army saw a drop in points, I think it's a done deal and works out fine. I feel like my army is saving over 100 points on gear with these changes, which comes out to about the same as Guard 100 Guardsmen costing 5 instead of 4, except the value for me is spread out against every opponent. (which gets complicated, since there are lots of point drops, but that's the general idea.)
BaconCatBug wrote: Infantry Squad remaining 4ppm shows GW has no clue how to balance and has no clue as to what is going on with the game.
Like the internets notions around balance are something to go by.
No, but there's some definite hard facts that we can go bye;
#1 - In a straight up fight with no auras, stratagems, other units, etc. Guardsmen will win against Cultists. Why? Because they have a better armour save, and better Ld.
#2 - Infantry Squads also have access to a greater diversity of weapons, including weapons that are able to deal with enemy unit types far more efficiently than what Cultists are capable of dealing with (aka; "anti-monster/vehicle weapons" like Plasma, Melta, Lascannon, Autocannon).
#3 - Infantry Squads have a stronger link of purpose in conjunction with their army design than Cultists do. Infantry Squads hold objectives, and bubble-wrap units that are able to make game-influencing actions at long distance. As Chaos is a much more close-combat focused army, Cultists are rarely bubble-wrapping more expensive units. Both units are being taken because they are an inexpensive way of filling out force-organization slots, but Infantry Squads have additional functionality in relation to the rest of their army.
For all three of these reasons, each on their own, Guardsmen should cost the same, if not more than a Cultist.
Save it for the next CA. This road has been traveled 1000 times now.
Given that the "proof-comparisons" people did were constantly vs. Marines, and the fact that so much of the marine army saw a drop in points, I think it's a done deal and works out fine. I feel like my army is saving over 100 points on gear with these changes, which comes out to about the same as Guard 100 Guardsmen costing 5 instead of 4, except the value for me is spread out against every opponent. (which gets complicated, since there are lots of point drops, but that's the general idea.)
Right - I agree with that. I also expected vanilla marines to go down a point, but the other changes essentially achieves the same effect.
That's just a silly outlook. At what point since the launch of 8th were GK nerfed?
First when razobacks and stormravens got priced hiked, because Gulliman they couldn't take and re-rolls they didn't have access to. Then before the edition started GW thought they smite was too strong, so they gave them baby smite, but forgot to do the same to other armies, so other armies were spaming smite just fine.
then there was the teleportation nerf, and the rule of 3 nerf that killed those armies that run 4-5 units of interceptors. Also each time other armies get new stuff and/or get fixs, but GK get nothing, this counts as a nerf, because everyone is moving forward and the GK are moving back.
I'm saying they could drop the cost of your current stratagems.
So to run those, Gk players would have to run other armies to get the CP. Why play GK then. Just take DW with plasma vets, some IG, much better army and unlike GK, the player doesn't have to worry that their army will suddenly get phased out, because of the "no GK primaris" thing. Also they could have done the right thing when there was a codex coming out, the FAQ, the CA, the other FAQ, why should they change the GK stratagems now ? they didn't even bother to give them formations or rules for vigilus. And it is hard to imagine a force of anti chaos anti demon dudes doesn't fight chaos and demons.
Given that the "proof-comparisons" people did were constantly vs. Marines, and the fact that so much of the marine army saw a drop in points, I think it's a done deal and works out fine. I feel like my army is saving over 100 points on gear with these changes, which comes out to about the same as Guard 100 Guardsmen costing 5 instead of 4, except the value for me is spread out against every opponent. (which gets complicated, since there are lots of point drops, but that's the general idea.)
Right - I agree with that. I also expected vanilla marines to go down a point, but the other changes essentially achieves the same effect.
It's all relative.
Yeah, I think it works fine. More interesting to me on the Marine side is that GW has decided that +1 Attack and +1 Ld is worth 1 point. (Tacticals vs. Vets) Which is surprising, but I can see the logic to it. The extra attack is rarely used, and Ld. can be avoided easily.
Yeah, I think it works fine. More interesting to me on the Marine side is that GW has decided that +1 Attack and +1 Ld is worth 1 point. (Tacticals vs. Vets) Which is surprising, but I can see the logic to it. The extra attack is rarely used, and Ld. can be avoided easily.
Except for the Intercessors, then it is worth one command point! (I'd rather pay a point for that, thank you very much.)
That's just a silly outlook. At what point since the launch of 8th were GK nerfed?
First when razobacks and stormravens got priced hiked, because Gulliman they couldn't take and re-rolls they didn't have access to. Then before the edition started GW thought they smite was too strong, so they gave them baby smite, but forgot to do the same to other armies, so other armies were spaming smite just fine.
then there was the teleportation nerf, and the rule of 3 nerf that killed those armies that run 4-5 units of interceptors. Also each time other armies get new stuff and/or get fixs, but GK get nothing, this counts as a nerf, because everyone is moving forward and the GK are moving back.
Those things applied to everyone. There was no singling out of GK. Rites of Banishment was in the index.
I'm saying they could drop the cost of your current stratagems.
So to run those, Gk players would have to run other armies to get the CP. Why play GK then. Just take DW with plasma vets, some IG, much better army and unlike GK, the player doesn't have to worry that their army will suddenly get phased out, because of the "no GK primaris" thing. Also they could have done the right thing when there was a codex coming out, the FAQ, the CA, the other FAQ, why should they change the GK stratagems now ? they didn't even bother to give them formations or rules for vigilus. And it is hard to imagine a force of anti chaos anti demon dudes doesn't fight chaos and demons.
If they dropped their cost you wouldn't need allies as much...LOTS of people don't have a formation yet.
Yeah, I think it works fine. More interesting to me on the Marine side is that GW has decided that +1 Attack and +1 Ld is worth 1 point. (Tacticals vs. Vets) Which is surprising, but I can see the logic to it. The extra attack is rarely used, and Ld. can be avoided easily.
Except for the Intercessors, then it is worth one command point! (I'd rather pay a point for that, thank you very much.)
Yeah, I think it works fine. More interesting to me on the Marine side is that GW has decided that +1 Attack and +1 Ld is worth 1 point. (Tacticals vs. Vets) Which is surprising, but I can see the logic to it. The extra attack is rarely used, and Ld. can be avoided easily.
Except for the Intercessors, then it is worth one command point! (I'd rather pay a point for that, thank you very much.)
???, You'll have to fill me in on that one.
Formation lets you pay 1 CP to make veteran intercessors with +1A +1LD
Formation lets you pay 1 CP to make veteran intercessors with +1A +1LD
Ahh, ok. 1 Squad? Seems like just an easy flavor thing, especially as you don't need a new datasheet. There's a case to be made for having the option at battle-time rather than paying the points up front.
Formation lets you pay 1 CP to make veteran intercessors with +1A +1LD
Ahh, ok. 1 Squad? Seems like just an easy flavor thing, especially as you don't need a new datasheet. There's a case to be made for having the option at battle-time rather than paying the points up front.
Yea I don't mind it at all. Besides they comes with 2A anyway so kicking them to 3 is pretty nice.
Ahh, ok. 1 Squad? Seems like just an easy flavor thing, especially as you don't need a new datasheet. There's a case to be made for having the option at battle-time rather than paying the points up front.
One CP per squad. And I'd much rather pay 1 PPM for it, the pure Primaris armies are pretty CP starved to begin with.
Yay now intercessors are the equivalent of an ork boy in melee and we know how deadly ork boys are in 5-10 man squads They're also just as deadly as reivers who we all know are also a joke in melee. The sergeants will be where it's at. Giving them a power fist for 9 points puts them up to 26 points with 4 s8 ap-3 d3 damage attacks. That is actually good. Only issue with that though is that it takes 1 CP per squad so if you only run 5 mans you are not getting your full moneys worth, but if you run 10 you still only get one sergeant. So for this to be worth anything you need to build your army with that in mind so you will be spending the points on that sergeant power fist and likely taking 10 man squads to get the most out of the veteran upgrade as well as the one good stratagem to make your bolt rifles Rapid Fire 2.
I think some real big winners here are the centurions who dropped 40 points which is MASSIVE.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Yay now intercessors are the equivalent of an ork boy in melee and we know how deadly ork boys are in 5-10 man squads They're also just as deadly as reivers who we all know are also a joke in melee. The sergeants will be where it's at. Giving them a power fist for 9 points puts them up to 26 points with 4 s8 ap-3 d3 damage attacks. That is actually good. Only issue with that though is that it takes 1 CP per squad so if you only run 5 mans you are not getting your full moneys worth, but if you run 10 you still only get one sergeant. So for this to be worth anything you need to build your army with that in mind so you will be spending the points on that sergeant power fist and likely taking 10 man squads to get the most out of the veteran upgrade as well as the one good stratagem to make your bolt rifles Rapid Fire 2.
Then again, if you're running ten mans, then you have much harder time filling the detachments to get that CP in the first place...
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Yay now intercessors are the equivalent of an ork boy in melee and we know how deadly ork boys are in 5-10 man squads They're also just as deadly as reivers who we all know are also a joke in melee. The sergeants will be where it's at. Giving them a power fist for 9 points puts them up to 26 points with 4 s8 ap-3 d3 damage attacks. That is actually good. Only issue with that though is that it takes 1 CP per squad so if you only run 5 mans you are not getting your full moneys worth, but if you run 10 you still only get one sergeant. So for this to be worth anything you need to build your army with that in mind so you will be spending the points on that sergeant power fist and likely taking 10 man squads to get the most out of the veteran upgrade as well as the one good stratagem to make your bolt rifles Rapid Fire 2.
Then again, if you're running ten mans, then you have much harder time filling the detachments to get that CP in the first place...
Yup that is a very good point and showcases more of the problems with the veterans detachment. I really, really like the idea of it, but I don't see it as being all that practical which makes me very sad.
So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?
Maybe it is a balancing thing. Maybe made the change thinking of the future. Lets say they somehow make the basic game 3000pts, but limit the number of HQs you can take. then a pricier predators could still outnumber the IG commanders in their russes, which would then create balance.
Those things applied to everyone. There was no singling out of GK. Rites of Banishment was in the index.
I very much remember a friend of mine running 5 or so chaos dudes all casting full power smite. And at that time my index GK were explained to have nerfed smite, because of it being used en mass being too OP. He used it for months till they nerfed the unit, but by then he just turned his chaos IG in to normal IG.
If they dropped their cost you wouldn't need allies as much...LOTS of people don't have a formation yet.
Ok, but shouldn't rules be given out like triange. Unless of course GW thinks about GK as dead or close to dead, then yeah it makes sense. But then they should tell people that they are putting much effort in to GK. So people could avoid spending money on stuff that doesn't work. I mean do IG need or eldar need extra rules to be played?
Also how and since when is having a good own army worse then needing ally? Unless you mean for GW, then yes being forced to buy another codex or two just to maybe try to see, if your army can be played somehow, makes sense.
Devilfish going in the right direction, railrifle pathfinders probably still worse than ion but a nice reduction and maybe two squads in a devilish could be a fun gimmick. Crisis, awesome though I'm not sure whether more expensive weapons will be worth it outside of FSE bomb; 45pts for a 3xflamer crisis makes for a nasty assault deterrent though...Broadsides; must be tied to the crazy centurion drop.
Surprised about guardsmen and castellan staying where they're at and really hope that Railgun Hammerheads get something that will bring them in line with imperial counterparts.
I genuinely don't know why anyone should bother with Necrons. They lower the price of Praetorians yet don't do anything about the useless and overcosted Lychguard. Meanwhile, they hugely increase our only decent LOW model.
We may as well all just play Eldar and Space Marines.
Sumilidon wrote: I genuinely don't know why anyone should bother with Necrons. They lower the price of Praetorians yet don't do anything about the useless and overcosted Lychguard. Meanwhile, they hugely increase our only decent LOW model.
We may as well all just play Eldar and Space Marines.
Doomsday Arks dropped 33 points
Warriors are 1 point cheaper
Immortals are 2 points cheaper because of weapons reductions
Tomb Blades are 4 points cheaper because of the same weapons reductions
Command Barges dropped 31 ish points
Stalkers saw almost a 50 point drop
Annihilation Barges dropped 30 ish points
Wraiths dropped 7 points
Destroyers stayed the same (when most were expecting an increase).
Just to name a few... We may not be a top tier codex, but we certainly gained a LOT from CA.
Guessing the thinking on Cultists going up and IG infantry not is roughly thus.
Chaos forces use Cultists as a cheap infantry unit to avoid buying CSM, and there have apparently been some powerful armies built using cultists this way, plus cultist "CP batteries" are possible as well.
Guardsmen tend to be seen in smaller numbers in soup armies where adding a point won't make a lot of difference, plus they don't want to make it harder to run IG as an infantry force, where as you don't run Cultists as an infantry force.
Not I'm not saying I agree, or that it makes much sense, but there you go.
I do however wish that since they have changed so many points that they had simply re-printed the points for everything to avoid having to keep cross referencing to find what anything costs, at least stuff from CA2017 seems to be here as well even if its not changed from CA2017
That's just a silly outlook. At what point since the launch of 8th were GK nerfed?
First when razobacks and stormravens got priced hiked, because Gulliman they couldn't take and re-rolls they didn't have access to. Then before the edition started GW thought they smite was too strong, so they gave them baby smite, but forgot to do the same to other armies, so other armies were spaming smite just fine.
then there was the teleportation nerf, and the rule of 3 nerf that killed those armies that run 4-5 units of interceptors. Also each time other armies get new stuff and/or get fixs, but GK get nothing, this counts as a nerf, because everyone is moving forward and the GK are moving back.
Those things applied to everyone. There was no singling out of GK. Rites of Banishment was in the index.
I'm saying they could drop the cost of your current stratagems.
So to run those, Gk players would have to run other armies to get the CP. Why play GK then. Just take DW with plasma vets, some IG, much better army and unlike GK, the player doesn't have to worry that their army will suddenly get phased out, because of the "no GK primaris" thing. Also they could have done the right thing when there was a codex coming out, the FAQ, the CA, the other FAQ, why should they change the GK stratagems now ? they didn't even bother to give them formations or rules for vigilus. And it is hard to imagine a force of anti chaos anti demon dudes doesn't fight chaos and demons.
If they dropped their cost you wouldn't need allies as much...LOTS of people don't have a formation yet.
Stop with the persecution complex.
Literally the only way I can math out how to play grey knights right now is yo play guard, but bring 2 grand masters and draigo. Make them the warlord for rerolling charges. Give the masters 3++s.
Deathwatch got a big boost here. They can spam 3++ invuln veterans with SIA storm bolters for 20ppm and deepstrike them if they so wish. They are still going to be fairly vulnerable to mass ap- shots, but for 2 points a stormshield is too good to not take. I can see DW veterans having a very good niche as a chaff eater and even against tougher targets (up to t7) they spit out so many shots at atleast ap-1 that they will get some wounds through and have easy access to re-roll 1s to wound and a +1 to wound stratagem.
Gryphonne wrote: Scrivener and Plague Drones getting nerfed is just such a fething fail for nurgle daemons. How is the scrivener even worth almost 100pts.
nothing change for standard tourney demons army also with scrivener up in points, unless you play lot of plague drones too.
Anyway... we have points but where are all those juicy rules change like for example that -1 to hit became +1 cover?
Daedalus81 wrote: Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.
I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.
There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.
So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?
Predator weapons dropped. Quad-Las is a 20 point decrease.
Did the standard lascannon drop? I don't see that. Twin las did drop. But The autocannon is still a better choice.
Oh, you're right. I saw the Twin Las and figured the regular one dropped too. How strange.
That really boggles my mind, actually. Considering the Plasma Cannon dropped by 5.
Yeah it makes no sense. Dev cents down 45 points but still unplayable with LC build because they pay 50 points for 2 LC when a twin las is 40. 100 points for 2 LC and huri bolter on Dev cents. 120 for Twin las and missle dread.
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Tibs Ironblood wrote: Deathwatch got a big boost here. They can spam 3++ invuln veterans with SIA storm bolters for 20ppm and deepstrike them if they so wish. They are still going to be fairly vulnerable to mass ap- shots, but for 2 points a stormshield is too good to not take. I can see DW veterans having a very good niche as a chaff eater and even against tougher targets (up to t7) they spit out so many shots at atleast ap-1 that they will get some wounds through and have easy access to re-roll 1s to wound and a +1 to wound stratagem.
DW was already top notch - they didn't need any buffs. Do the math - SIA is better than being buffed by Gman in most cases. Keep in mind - Gman is 400 points. 3++ spam puts them over the top.
Xenomancers wrote: Ven dreads with 2 LC and missile are now at efficiency levels though.
145 points for that and a high chance of having re-rolls is alright I suppose. I wonder how it compares to a demolisher tank commander. Tanky boy got a 40 point drop I believe which is BEEFY.
I'm loving the Chimera price cut - 15 points off of the base model, Heavy Flamers down 3 points, Multilasers down I don't know how many points (5 I think?). I can see them actually contributing now that the budget transport version of them are not 93 points. Hell, a double Heavy Flamer one is now 88 points - less than the old budget one!
I'm scratching my head at the Plasma point cut. Melta I understand, it needed it, but Plasma was doing well enough I thought. And much like everyone else, I expected average Guardsmen going up to 5 points, and it surprises me that they did not.
kurhanik wrote: I'm loving the Chimera price cut - 15 points off of the base model, Heavy Flamers down 3 points, Multilasers down I don't know how many points (5 I think?). I can see them actually contributing now that the budget transport version of them are not 93 points. Hell, a double Heavy Flamer one is now 88 points - less than the old budget one!
I'm scratching my head at the Plasma point cut. Melta I understand, it needed it, but Plasma was doing well enough I thought. And much like everyone else, I expected average Guardsmen going up to 5 points, and it surprises me that they did not.
Plasma wasn't really making tables despite how often it got brought up in mathhammer.
Chimeras getting a points drop of that level is pretty good for them. I do wonder though what they can carry that would be worth it. Special weapon squads decked out with plasma come to mind.
Karol wrote: Well still have to live in suprise of GK units costs, but a cheaper special weapon and free normal weapons seem cool
When you say "free normal weapons" are you referring to Strom Bolters?
I can't see them listed at all on those images, does this mean they are now free? Or that they still remain unchanged as per the original (8th ed) codex at 2 points per gun?
Karol wrote: Well still have to live in suprise of GK units costs, but a cheaper special weapon and free normal weapons seem cool
When you say "free normal weapons" are you referring to Strom Bolters?
I can't see them listed at all on those images, does this mean they are now free? Or that they still remain unchanged as per the original (8th ed) codex at 2 points per gun?
Xenomancers wrote: Ven dreads with 2 LC and missile are now at efficiency levels though.
145 points for that and a high chance of having re-rolls is alright I suppose. I wonder how it compares to a demolisher tank commander. Tanky boy got a 40 point drop I believe which is BEEFY.
Not sure if it's better than the battlecannon commander who also went down 25 points but yeah...It's crazy I start bringing russes with my space marines to bring them up a little bit then commanders get buffed huge...95 points off my russ supreme command because I was 2 battle cannons and 1 demolishers russ. Totally insane.
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable.
Yeah I just saw that, 2ppm for a 3++ is insane
Exactly. They just need to fix the price on the Mortars. The question is what IS that price?
Also in completely in disagreement with the Storm Shield change. I'd have been okay with 4 points, and 3 points is super pushing it. At 2 it's almost an auto-include.
Are you kidding? 2 point 3++ saves is auto include. It was auto include at 5 points. One of the dumbest changes I've ever seen. DW is pretty OP now.
Just deathwatch? Check again, all space marines have SS at 2 points.
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable.
Yeah I just saw that, 2ppm for a 3++ is insane
Exactly. They just need to fix the price on the Mortars. The question is what IS that price?
Also in completely in disagreement with the Storm Shield change. I'd have been okay with 4 points, and 3 points is super pushing it. At 2 it's almost an auto-include.
Are you kidding? 2 point 3++ saves is auto include. It was auto include at 5 points. One of the dumbest changes I've ever seen. DW is pretty OP now.
Just deathwatch? Check again, all space marines have SS at 2 points.
Deathwatch are the ones getting the most out of it though, as even their basic troops can all equip them. That's more the point.
Marmatag wrote: It's funny that at face value guard are profiting more from this than Space Marines.
Which army is bottom tier? Which army is top tier?
Although i'm not sure these are the real CA pages or not just yet.
To be fair, if they are fake, then they've put a good amount of effort into making it look authentic.
looking how the pages are formatted i dont think they come from real CA, some datas are dispersed like for example demons. highly probability that's not the true CA
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable.
Yeah I just saw that, 2ppm for a 3++ is insane
Exactly. They just need to fix the price on the Mortars. The question is what IS that price?
Also in completely in disagreement with the Storm Shield change. I'd have been okay with 4 points, and 3 points is super pushing it. At 2 it's almost an auto-include.
Are you kidding? 2 point 3++ saves is auto include. It was auto include at 5 points. One of the dumbest changes I've ever seen. DW is pretty OP now.
Just deathwatch? Check again, all space marines have SS at 2 points.
DW are the only army other than custodes that I canthink off that can throw a bunch of SS into a unit that is actually killy enough for this to matter.
Marmatag wrote: It's funny that at face value guard are profiting more from this than Space Marines.
Which army is bottom tier? Which army is top tier?
Although i'm not sure these are the real CA pages or not just yet.
To be fair, if they are fake, then they've put a good amount of effort into making it look authentic.
looking how the pages are formatted i dont think they come from real CA, some datas are dispersed like for example demons. highly probability that's not the true CA
'
I think you're just looking at them our of order. The first daemon section is on the left side of the book and the rest is on the right side of the book.
Gryphonne wrote: Scrivener and Plague Drones getting nerfed is just such a fething fail for nurgle daemons. How is the scrivener even worth almost 100pts.
nothing change for standard tourney demons army also with scrivener up in points, unless you play lot of plague drones too.
Anyway... we have points but where are all those juicy rules change like for example that -1 to hit became +1 cover?
FLG confirmed those salty rumors were just that. This week's signals doubly stressed that CA2018 only changes points and adds new missions.
Gryphonne wrote: Scrivener and Plague Drones getting nerfed is just such a fething fail for nurgle daemons. How is the scrivener even worth almost 100pts.
nothing change for standard tourney demons army also with scrivener up in points, unless you play lot of plague drones too.
Anyway... we have points but where are all those juicy rules change like for example that -1 to hit became +1 cover?
FLG confirmed those salty rumors were just that. This week's signals doubly stressed that CA2018 only changes points and adds new missions.
so my 120 Pb's grins and happily enjoy that juicy -1 to hit
A honeypot seems more likely than a fake, in this case. That said, I think it's wishful thinking that this is a honeypot.
Biggest reasons to think it's a fake:
-Dev Cents didn't get a price hike - that breaks tradition
-Clearly, Spears needed a price drop and got a hike - clearly a fake!
Kanluwen wrote: IS never should have been able to get Mortars in the first damn place.
Why shouldn't they have access to them? They've had access to them for every edition of 40k.
This is just the first edition that they've ever been a functional weapon and where people actually bothered to use them
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable.
Yeah I just saw that, 2ppm for a 3++ is insane
Exactly. They just need to fix the price on the Mortars. The question is what IS that price?
Also in completely in disagreement with the Storm Shield change. I'd have been okay with 4 points, and 3 points is super pushing it. At 2 it's almost an auto-include.
Are you kidding? 2 point 3++ saves is auto include. It was auto include at 5 points. One of the dumbest changes I've ever seen. DW is pretty OP now.
Just deathwatch? Check again, all space marines have SS at 2 points.
DW are the only army other than custodes that I canthink off that can throw a bunch of SS into a unit that is actually killy enough for this to matter.
I'm thinking SM Command Squads with Plasma and Storm Shields, for which every item there got a cut. Two squads of that in a Pod is a pretty threatening drop.
Yeah, how come none of the standard marines got any points reduction? To the point the Chaplain and Captain are like only a few pts less that the primaris version. hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Daedalus81 wrote: Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.
I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.
duuuuuuuuuude. IG got huuuge points reductions... I mean... wow... The Ork codex looks like a nerf compared to all this!
To be fair, most of them were warranted for the stuff that got it, as many issues as people have with the book a lot of it just isnt very good. Chimeras, Armored Sentinels, Hydras, Demolishers, Deathstrikes, etc all needed some help.
The Tank Commander getting a 25pt decrease however was ah...riduculous, and I have no idea why GW felt that was necessary
Mr Morden wrote: Why the feth would they make plasma guns cheaper!?
Because Primaris got cheaper, so GW wants to keep the balance. As long as the main weapon taking out Primaris Marines stays cheap, regular Marines will stay "balanced" in relation.
So that must be why regular Marines got zero points change.
#GWlogic
lolman1c wrote: Yeah, how come none of the standard marines got any points reduction? To the point the Chaplain and Captain are like only a few pts less that the primaris version. hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Probably because they're well on their way to becoming Legacy models.
Daedalus81 wrote: Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.
I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.
duuuuuuuuuude. IG got huuuge points reductions... I mean... wow... The Ork codex looks like a nerf compared to all this!
To be fair, most of them were warranted for the stuff that got it, as many issues as people have with the book a lot of it just isnt very good. Chimeras, Armored Sentinels, Hydras, Demolishers, Deathstrikes, etc all needed some help.
The Tank Commander getting a 25pt decrease however was ah...riduculous, and I have no idea why GW felt that was necessary
Dude, I played a game the other day, the leeman russ's here just destroyed everything I had and now they got a points reduction in either base cost or weaponry.
Also suuuuuper sad tact marines didn't get a price reduction but everything in that £100 box they;re selling did. I mean come on! Primaris marines only cost a few points more now... Although i can't complain i do own like 10 XD
Also sad to see powerfists go down to 9pts... because I'm an Ork player.... But also super happy because I'm a marine player who loves putting power fists on every model he owns. XD
Dude, I played a game the other day, the leeman russ's here just destroyed everything I had and now they got a points reduction in either base cost or weaponry.
The only weapons that went down are the ones not getting used. No base for a LRBT went down aside from Tank Commander.
Dude, I played a game the other day, the leeman russ's here just destroyed everything I had and now they got a points reduction in either base cost or weaponry.
The only weapons that went down are the ones not getting used. No base for a LRBT went down aside from Tank Commander.
The ones that went down were the ones kicking my ass XD
The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Looking at various changes, a lot of it is GW writers finally getting that X weapon or piece of gear should be costed differently on different units. Great, can we now drop that really stupid, page-flippy armory system that they brought back for no reason (other than some nostalgic GW writer hating game balance and book usability, probably) and go back to 5th edition individual gear pricing? Pity it took them 3 editions to notice blatantly obvious, though...
dahnarius wrote: no price drop on standard tac marines makes me really sad :(
Think of it as being spread around the weapons options.
That doesn't really work out as well as you'd want it to, as that means a single squad with a Plasma Gun went down 0.4 points each.
Depends on how much you spent on your squads. It's like shopping during a sale, the more you spend the more you save!
But no matter what you do you're still in debt.
A common older squad for me was 10, Plas, Combi-Plas and Grav-Cannon. If the new points are legit and I swap to a Plasma Cannon, I get about 10% back. Across my usual four squads is 72 points for a free Rhino. Nice!
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Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
Just repointed several of my pure CWE lists. Only gained a net 10-30pts per list. Which is great considering I have 5 Shining Spears in every list.
As an Eldar player I am happy with the changes. But as a player who likes my favorite opponent (Marines) to also have fair and balanced lists I am disappointed.
One of the core issues for Marines is the Tactical Marines were too expensive and Guard Troops were too cheap. Literally nothing changed for this issue
Irbis wrote: Looking at various changes, a lot of it is GW writers finally getting that X weapon or piece of gear should be costed differently on different units. Great, can we now drop that really stupid, page-flippy armory system that they brought back for no reason (other than some nostalgic GW writer hating game balance and book usability, probably) and go back to 5th edition individual gear pricing? Pity it took them 3 editions to notice blatantly obvious, though...
Galef wrote: One of the core issues for Marines is the Tactical Marines were too expensive and Guard Troops were too cheap. Literally nothing changed for this issue
Armies fight armies, man. The individual model comparisons are a red herring.
Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
Are combi-plas still only single-use? Or can you choose which profile to fire?
I will say that a big winner for me is Thunderwolf Cavalry. They're not a competitive choice but i love them. A 2 point stormshield on them is an 8 point drop per model. Makes these guys somewhat viable in a casual setting. Their offense is still garbage, and the CAVALRY keyword really prevents them from being usable competitively, but they're still cool. So, i'm excited about that.
Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
Are combi-plas still only single-use? Or can you choose which profile to fire?
They've been multi-use for the edition. You can fire either weapon or both at the same time at a -1 to hit, too.
Why would they reduce the Manticore by 10 points, back to it's original cost? It was that, and it was raised from that value to it's current one.
Why would they reduce the cost of Tank Commanders by such a large margin, but not the non-commander tanks? I have a hard time believing that BS3+ and the Tank Order buff is only worth 20 points.
What do we have that has a Twin Assault Cannon?
Also, why are there 2 sections of Astra Militarum units. I suspect something not-quite-right is going on here.
Why would they reduce the Manticore by 10 points, back to it's original cost?
Why would they reduce the cost of Tank Commanders by such a large margin, but not the non-commander tanks? I have a hard time believing that BS3+ and the Tank Order buff is only worth 20 points.
These changes are pretty wild. The Tank Commander thing doesn't make a lot of sense, Infantry Squads staying while Cultists go up (even after ToT nerfs) doesn't make a lot of sense. Every army got such massive changes that it's hard to figure out what the net effect is.
The end result is that guard are the clear winners here. They can continue to field a stupid cheap army and also bring a knight with 0 downsides. CWE also seem to have made out like bandits.
Deathwatch are also a clear winner being the best marines out there.
Necrons seem to have done well. Tyranids also have done well.
I just realized:
Space Marine Bike: 21ppm
Storm Shield: 2ppm
Plasma Gun: 13 ppm
That adds up to 36 points, although not every SM Biker can take a Storm Shield.
Shining Spears are now, what, 34ppm?
For 2ppm, you get much better shooting, +1T, a 3++ that matters *in cc*, and assorted gubbins. You lose out on weaker CC (although less than the difference in shooting) and Fly.
Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
Are combi-plas still only single-use? Or can you choose which profile to fire?
They've been multi-use for the edition. You can fire either weapon or both at the same time at a -1 to hit, too.
And this is also the reason GW decided to make Combi-Plasma specifically the same cost as regular Plasma, but other combi-weapons are +1ppm over their non-combi counterpart.
Because Supercharging you plasma does not like being -1 to hit, so you won't fire both at the same time (unless you're trying to die)
So basically combi-plasma is either a Plasma (11ppm) or a Bolter (0ppm) but rarely enough both to merit the +1pt.
Combi-Flamers, otoh....
dahnarius wrote: no price drop on standard tac marines makes me really sad :(
Think of it as being spread around the weapons options.
That doesn't really work out as well as you'd want it to, as that means a single squad with a Plasma Gun went down 0.4 points each.
Depends on how much you spent on your squads. It's like shopping during a sale, the more you spend the more you save!
But no matter what you do you're still in debt.
A common older squad for me was 10, Plas, Combi-Plas and Grav-Cannon. If the new points are legit and I swap to a Plasma Cannon, I get about 10% back. Across my usual four squads is 72 points for a free Rhino. Nice!
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Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
I'm not quite sure how you got that math. That's basically 8 points a squad, so you saved 32 points...
I'm not quite sure how you got that math. That's basically 8 points a squad, so you saved 32 points...
Plasma drops by 2, Combi Plasma drops by 4, Grav-Cannon to new Plasma Cannon is a savings of 12. 18 points per squad.
With the only "special/ non-bolt related" weapons Primaris units have been released being Plasma based combined with the decrease on Plasma guns, Combi- and Cannons, I think it's save to save GW has a real hard-on for Plasma these days.
Ork codex comes out... Our points are finally on level with other armies but some of our units got points increases for no reason... but oh well! Sure other units will get points increases in CA.
CA comes out... oh.
BTW, if you notice the Knights have gone down in points with weapon options. And also weapons that have the same profile as Ork weapons have also gone down in points below the ork points... so yeah... It kinda seems like we were nerfed. XD
Bharring wrote: But wasn't it the best month for Ork players EVAR? It's like you were a real army - that doesn't happen every decade!
the Chimera now costs the same as an Ork Trukk. -_- I had like 2 games and I lost both. XD I never even got to test out my speed freaks list... Oh well. The battle reports on youtuber were good while they lasted.
Bharring wrote: I just realized: Space Marine Bike: 21ppm Storm Shield: 2ppm Plasma Gun: 13 ppm
That adds up to 36 points, although not every SM Biker can take a Storm Shield.
Shining Spears are now, what, 34ppm?
For 2ppm, you get much better shooting, +1T, a 3++ that matters *in cc*, and assorted gubbins. You lose out on weaker CC (although less than the difference in shooting) and Fly.
Yes, you lose out on:
Fly - the ability to move over terrain, and through buildings. Bikers aren't infantry so they are blocked by buildings, ruins, etc. They also cannot fight things on the second level of a ruins, or places that non-infantry and non-fly can't go.
Insane Melee - Shining spears have insane melee.
Ynnari - WTFBBQ ability to Soulburst, the most broken thing in this game.
No Overcharge - the ability to shoot without killing yourself.
Deep Strike - Webway 4 dayz
On Demand Psychic Gubbinz - Eldar have better psychic powers that are actually useful.
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
dahnarius wrote: no price drop on standard tac marines makes me really sad :(
Think of it as being spread around the weapons options.
That doesn't really work out as well as you'd want it to, as that means a single squad with a Plasma Gun went down 0.4 points each.
Depends on how much you spent on your squads. It's like shopping during a sale, the more you spend the more you save!
But no matter what you do you're still in debt.
A common older squad for me was 10, Plas, Combi-Plas and Grav-Cannon. If the new points are legit and I swap to a Plasma Cannon , I get about 10% back. Across my usual four squads is 72 points for a free Rhino. Nice!
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Horst wrote: The Codex limit of 1 special weapon / 1 heavy weapon per 5 marines really needs to go away if they want marines to be a viable troops choice.... make them able to take 2 special / 2 heavy if they're a 10 man unit, or 1/1 if 5 man, and I bet people would be more open to taking tactical squads.
Combi-Plas is the same cost as a normal one if these are true. Just double up using the combi and take 5 man squads. Gives you 4 specials for 10 guys.
I'm not quite sure how you got that math. That's basically 8 points a squad, so you saved 32 points...
I was running 10 with my Devs already, but it looks like the Tacs may get them now.
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
Please do share a list of every factions changes, would love an overall list to show us what's going on.
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
Please do share a list of every factions changes, would love an overall list to show us what's going on.
Haha sorry mate, these took some time to do and now I have to work >_>. We'll have to have someone else handle the rest for now.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Well obviously certain armies arent allowed to be good. Haven't you heard?
Well as expected some of the changes make sense and others do not.
The real kicker for me is the lack of change for basic marines and csm this was so badly needed to make these factions play as they are supposed to. The weapon drops are welcome and make them much more in line with xenos weapon costs but it is very clear at this point that gw does not want us playing with our old school space marines anymore which as i own about 300 of them is a bit of a problem for me :/
I don't agree with the cultist/infantry squad issue but can see part of their reasoning. Infantry men are supposed be the ubiquitous backbone of the IG who's hallmark is cheap troop. Cultist are supposed to be the lackeys and slaves to the mighty chaos Marines, and as they don't want to reduce their cost the only way to make them a more attractive option was to increase the cultist cost.
The other issue with the cultist/infantry squad comparison is that it is really not down to the stat line (infantry are obviously better there) it's down to cultists having a huge unit size and access to very powerful stratagem. If gw were unwilling to alter these abilities and the fact they are easy to make fearless then increasing their cost is the way to curb their relative power. Squad size of 20 and unable to use veterans of the long war would work much better...
I'm hoping for a day one faq adjusting some stuff, after all this was sent to the printers months ago and I'd be happy for them to make a f3w extra alterations.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
I just can;t believe it... I was actually getting yelled at by some people to shut up and CA would show how wrong I was... We'll guess I'm right but I don't feel good being right. I'm pissed Knights got a slight points decrease. It's only like 1 or 2 pts but just shows what GW thinks of the meta right now.
This is like one of those physics exams... if two things keep getting bigger but one is smaller than the other it doesn't mean the smaller one will eventually be the biggest. XD We're exsactly were we started but this time i have an extra trukk and you have an extra tank commander. XD
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Well obviously certain armies arent allowed to be good. Haven't you heard?
I’ve heard it for over 18 years.
You’d think I’d know better by now, but I love the fluff so damn much.
Any other company would have folded 17 years ago; if not sooner. Gameplay isn’t certainly what’s keeping GW alive, that’s for sure...
3rd edition, and every other codex was Space Marine; hell, some armies went 10-12 YEARS with no updates. The Imperial bias is beyond real.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Well obviously certain armies arent allowed to be good. Haven't you heard?
I’ve heard it for over 18 years.
You’d think I’d know better by now, but I love the fluff so damn much.
Any other company would have folded 17 years ago; if not sooner. Gameplay isn’t certainly what’s keeping GW alive, that’s for sure...
3rd edition, and every other codex was Space Marine; hell, some armies went 10-12 YEARS with no updates. The Imperial bias is beyond real.
Now, I ain't been playing for long, only since 8th, but I can say I agree. I certainly wouldn't be playing if the Fluff was bad, the gameplay ain't keeping me around.
I just can;t believe it... I was actually getting yelled at by some people to shut up and CA would show how wrong I was... We'll guess I'm right but I don't feel good being right. I'm pissed Knights got a slight points decrease. It's only like 1 or 2 pts but just shows what GW thinks of the meta right now.
Those same people will be here shortly to tell you that Orks will surely get the best formations in Vigilus and then they'll be great. If not that, then they'll have points drops in the mid-year FAQ. If not that, the 9th edition rulebook will rebalance everything properly. If not that... etc. You do gotta admire the tenacity of people who can hold on to an unshakable belief that the next release will fix everything for literal decades in the face of overwhelming evidence. It's like that joke about fusion always being just 20 years away.
If accurate and not an elaborate trolling effort, some logical changes and some head-shakers...and sadly a few hints at what is to come.
1) Plasma is still the only special weapon worth running more or less. This is shocking to me, UNLESS they have a separate article which makes plasmas overheat on an "unmodified roll of 1" etc. If they change the rule, or indeed the stat line this might be reasonable, but as it stands the drop in other costs didn't do anything to make plasma less fantastic. Shame.
2) I was joking about the conspiracy of Primaris units and other units getting buffed while leaving basic marines in the dust...and it may have actually happened. I thought even that was a bit too bold for a company like GW. The CSM changes are more damning, with every other "type" of marine getting a decrease whilst normal marines remain the same (a veteran now costing a scant 1 point more for a better stat line and wargear options). I think CSM are unfortunately tied into the fate of normal marines which are being phased out for Primaris - but the outcry would be too severe if CSM marines were properly pointed and the normal loyalist ones werent. Again, possible there's some huge rule change which buffs normal and CSM marines, but an overpriced unit just stayed put whilst everything else around them decreased. That is a serious fething death knell for these poor guys.
3) A couple things made me laugh (Fire Dragons up by three points...their weapons down by three points...).
4) Even with point drops, I don't think Terminators are worth taking still...and that's a shame (again, UNLESS we get an actual datasheet change or something)
Overall...meh? I didn't see any serious changes to make me change units I'm using (the Avatar is still super questionable at 220(?) points...), etc.
Yeah, by themselves this only buffs 1 thing... competitive soup... fluffy casual players will basically stay the same. I got some good points drops on my terminators though and I do enjoy bringing them so happy about that.
But the primaris favour is strong with this chapter approved. The primaris captain, I believe is only 5pts more than a regular captain. Same for chaplain. Why wouldn't I just take the primaris then? I actually do have a chaplain as my warlord though so disappointed it didn't get a price drop.
4) Even with point drops, I don't think Terminators are worth taking still...and that's a shame (again, UNLESS we get an actual datasheet change or something)
Competitively, I agree. We won't see them still with how prevalent multi damage, high AP weaponry is.
That said it's still about 20% off the price of a squad, give or take depending on loadout. For casual games, I think that's enough to run a squad without feeling like I'm totally gimping myself!
lolman1c wrote: Yeah, by themselves this only buffs 1 thing... competitive soup... fluffy casual players will basically stay the same. I got some good points drops on my terminators though and I do enjoy bringing them so happy about that.
But the primaris favour is strong with this chapter approved. The primaris captain, I believe is only 5pts more than a regular captain. Same for chaplain. Why wouldn't I just take the primaris then? I actually do have a chaplain as my warlord though so disappointed it didn't get a price drop.
And yet Primaris HQs still won't be taken because their utilities are terrible. Give me a P. Captain with a hammer, shield and jump pack and then we'll talk.
lolman1c wrote: Yeah, by themselves this only buffs 1 thing... competitive soup... fluffy casual players will basically stay the same. I got some good points drops on my terminators though and I do enjoy bringing them so happy about that.
But the primaris favour is strong with this chapter approved. The primaris captain, I believe is only 5pts more than a regular captain. Same for chaplain. Why wouldn't I just take the primaris then? I actually do have a chaplain as my warlord though so disappointed it didn't get a price drop.
And yet Primaris HQs still won't be taken because their utilities are terrible. Give me a P. Captain with a hammer, shield and jump pack and then we'll talk.
Yeah 4 attacks with a Power Fiat or Thunder Hammer is something I'd rather have than 5 attacks with a Power Sword. Plus Jump Pack or Terminator armor.
I'll make a case for the Gravis Captain, but I don't feel there's much point to the regular Primaris Captain.
If this CA is real, it just shows how hard the Imperial bias really is - not that that’s surprising, but...
Seriously though, Orks.
Imperial Guard bias, maybe. You'll still roll right over SM lists. A 3++ doesn't matter when you flood things with hundreds of AP- saves.
Orks are a top tier codex.
Orks are a one-trick pony, Tellyporta (and Jump), or lose.
They may win because of that - but it doesn’t mean anything. People will get better st screening, and we’ll be back to square 1.
Also, we held hope our codex has CA parity built in - we weren’t getting any CA changes, since we were so close to release; so you’d think we’d be on par with the changes other armies are getting.
Nope - we pay for traits, tactics, etc; and no army does. We over pay for equivalent weapons (PK vs PF), and so on.
It gets old man.
Aren't Nobz S5? Seems like it would be a case that Imperial Guard players make where we can say that, since you're better with the weapon, you should pay more for it.
Yeah 4 attacks with a Power Fiat or Thunder Hammer is something I'd rather have than 5 attacks with a Power Sword. Plus Jump Pack or Terminator armor.
I'll make a case for the Gravis Captain, but I don't feel there's much point to the regular Primaris Captain.
How about 5 power fist attacks with the birthday build? A bit easier to achieve now from kitbashing with the IF sprue coming.
Still subpar (since I'd love for him to be dangerous at range too). Plasma pistol kind of a weird choice - really wish it was just a mw instead of slain. He's much cheaper now, though!
Nobz been strength 5 was the exsact same argument people used when the indexes were leaked and the marines power fist was cheaper than the klaw. Look how well that turned out for index nobz units...
lolman1c wrote: Nobz been strength 5 was the exsact same argument people used when the indexes were leaked and the marines power fist was cheaper than the klaw. Look how well that turned out for index nobz units...
I'm just saying I'm expecting some consistency from people who say it's okay for Imperial Guard to pay cheaper for all their wargear. That's all.
Are any of you Ork player surprised with this latest development?
We know we can't have nice things. It has been this way for so long we should be used to it by now.
The writing on the wall was when we found Boyz were increasing in cost and base size. It was obvious this would happen.
Oh well, that one tournament we won sure was a good result boyz. Let's enjoy our sweet area of the meta - middling to low. I can tell you for a fact that the Vigilus formations won't help.
This CA is really disappointing and shows how little GW understand about their own game. It's embarrassing really.
Ah, the typical inane trolling of 'hurr durr if you don't like something sell your army that you've invested a ton of time and money into for a pittance.'
I'll remember this comment when the nerf bat next hits TS and you express any disappointment.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ah, the typical inane trolling of 'hurr durr if you don't like something sell your army that you've invested a ton of time and money into for a pittance.'
I'll remember this comment when the nerf bat next hits TS and you express any disappointment.
lol nah
Because I'm capable from divorcing my desires from the possibilities or pretending that I have all the answers. I also won't expect that a Klaw that has more base attacks and strength would get an immediate price cut. Or that by GW spending 95% of CA buffing weak units that it all of a sudden makes my army weak and unviable despite going 6-0 and taking 1st at a major tournament or 4-1 and taking second.
And I'm sorry to be really snarky, but I'm just so fething over the whining.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm a little perplexed as to why hotshot lasguns went to 0.
Maybe one reason is only one unit can take them, they're fixed equipment and they just added the cost of their fixed equipment to their base cost.
Mmm no. Scions are still 9. But I'm not gonna say anything because I'm hoping to put together a little scion detechment, which I guess the specialist detachment will influence
So scions are going to be silly again. With points costs so low on taurox prime weapons they will be great anchors for deep striking plasma squads. 118 for Taurox Battlecannon and 2 autocannons, so d6 s7 -2 dd3 shots and 4 s7 -1 d2 that get exploding dice at half (24") range. Neat. Add yarrik for reroll bubble and 6 of those buggers will spew hot death. Then the scions land and plasmadeth the survivors.
Too many whiny babies in this thread. Orks are better than they've been in years. They've got really awesome strats, great klan kulture bonuses, awesome new models, and still nothing but complain, complain, complain. I'm confident they are just fine even with other armies getting a bit of help in CA 2018. Space Marines really needed the help; they've been languishing since fairly early in 8th edition (once some more of the codexes came out and were flat out better). I admit there are some disappointing things, including Guardsmen staying at 4 ppm and Tzaangors staying at 7 while Tactical Marines stayed at 13, but otherwise I think the game will be better overall from this. It hasn't been long enough for all of the good builds to shake out of the Ork codex yet; keep experimenting and trying new units/combos, and maybe actually try to see the glass as half full for once (that last part goes for everyone, not just salty Ork players!).
The change to Rubrics and SOT doesn't have me all that excited to be honest. However the change to Mutaliths has my wheels turning I have been wondering how to fit more leadership debuffs into my list to make Treason of Tzeentch more reliable. At 125 points this may just be what I was looking for.
StarHunter25 wrote: So scions are going to be silly again. With points costs so low on taurox prime weapons they will be great anchors for deep striking plasma squads. 118 for Taurox Battlecannon and 2 autocannons, so d6 s7 -2 dd3 shots and 4 s7 -1 d2 that get exploding dice at half (24") range. Neat. Add yarrik for reroll bubble and 6 of those buggers will spew hot death. Then the scions land and plasmadeth the survivors.
We are a legitimate faction that has four units that we can completely claim. This is GW giving us our proper killing power since we lack fast attack, heavy support. Feth to Yarrick.
ZergSmasher wrote: Too many whiny babies in this thread. Orks are better than they've been in years. They've got really awesome strats, great klan kulture bonuses, awesome new models, and still nothing but complain, complain, complain. I'm confident they are just fine even with other armies getting a bit of help in CA 2018. Space Marines really needed the help; they've been languishing since fairly early in 8th edition (once some more of the codexes came out and were flat out better). I admit there are some disappointing things, including Guardsmen staying at 4 ppm and Tzaangors staying at 7 while Tactical Marines stayed at 13, but otherwise I think the game will be better overall from this. It hasn't been long enough for all of the good builds to shake out of the Ork codex yet; keep experimenting and trying new units/combos, and maybe actually try to see the glass as half full for once (that last part goes for everyone, not just salty Ork players!).
Orkz are literally exactly where we have been for a decade, mid to bottom tier. We got good strats, we got 1 good kulture and 2 ok kultures, the rest are meh at best. We did get awesome new models, I will never deny that. What we got from our new Codex was a 1 trick pony army that relies exclusively on turn 2 charges to function. We got a bunch of shooting buffs for units that suck so badly that without investing 6CP a turn in them they aren't worth taking. We got our bread and butter troop choice increased in price. Our Competitive lists on average went up well over 200pts (Mine went up 200pts just in Mek Gunz).
Our PKs cost more than Imperial Power Fists, Our Burna's cost more than Flamers, our Skorcha's cost more than Heavy Flamers, our Kustom Shoota costs as much as a Storm Bolter but is worse. Hell, we can now take a Killa Kan with a Big Shoota for 45pts, a Imperial Guard player can take a armored sentinel which is Faster, Tougher, More Wounds, better Leadership, Better WS and a Multi Laser which has more Strength for 35pts. (Multi Laser: S6 Ranged 36 3 shots COST? 5pts. Big Shoota: S5, Ranged 36 3 shots cost? 5pts.) a Chimera has more Toughness a better save better ballistic skill and better weapons and costs as much as a trukk. Our Warbikers cost as much as a Space Marine Biker.....
So yeah we are a bit pissed that we are yet again paying premium points for units which are worse or as good at best as imperial equivalents.
But in way it is good, if good armies get their good stuff at more or less the same cost, and some stuff gets cheaper, then there is a chance to see more variaty among those armies.
So did I.
First when razobacks and stormravens got priced hiked, because Gulliman they couldn't take and re-rolls they didn't have access to. Then before the edition started 
They're also just as deadly as reivers who we all know are also a joke in melee. The sergeants will be where it's at. Giving them a power fist for 9 points puts them up to 26 points with 4 s8 
