Grey knights have been nerfed by chapter approved. The buffs to things like plasma, making it even more accessible than ever has left grey knights in a very bad spot. It is also worth noting that almost all of the points drops for grey knights were too little and honestly did nothing generally. The army is essentially now guardsmen plus draigo and 2 3++ dreadknight grand masters. Everything else is horrible, and of you play a fluffy grey knights list, look forward to getting tabled turn one by tau or guard.
Grey knights winning at points drops was a good joke, warhammer community.
Grey knights have been consistantly nerfed by rules changes for 3 editions straight. I don't get why GW hates us so much. It feels like I should just give up on the army ever being in as playable a spot as my tau, where I dont look through my codex going "I guess only two things here arent unplayable"
P.S. Good to see the inquisition is still dead.
P.S.S.
Jaxler wrote: I've noticed that an apparent split is happening. People who don't play grey knights are claiming that people need to wait, and it's not that bad, grey knight players are thinking their army sucks still. I'd like to gently and slowly explain why grey knights suck, and why they still suck. I assumed I didn't need to break this down, but I will do so easily so even people with no understanding of grey knights can see the problem.
Here are key concepts and things required to understand grey knight's problems, that are not instantly apparent.
Grey knights pay for things they cannot use effectively. Each model has a force weapon built into the cost. All our infantry that aren't characters or paladins have 1 attack base or 2 in the case of terminators. You are paying out the nose for a weapon you can barely use. Everyone is a wizard! we can only use 6 spells (Really 4, but that's up next). Deep strike got nerfed, so a lot of times you'll be paying for deep striking units that can't deep strike, or have to wait until turn 2. So, grey knights are really just deep striking marines with storm bolters, that pay for gadgets they can't use. Purgation squads are paying for close weapons that are built into their cost that they trade away for heavy weapons. In fact, all our heavy weapons on power armored guys force us to give up the force weapon that we paid for already, and then make us pay for the heavy weapon.
Grey knights are not good at spells. Look at their spells. Vortex of doom is a horrible spell. It fails to go off 40% of the time, it only targets 1 model, so the AOE is rarely useful, and can hurt your own men. Purge soul is a worse smite. Oh boy, we've 4 spells then! Eh. Gate is great, but its use is kind of miffed by the fact that everything already has deep strike, or sucks, or doesn't need deep strike. Sanctuary is an amazing spell. Astral aim is a good spell, but is held back. It's really only good on dreadnaughts, so the one dread you run to abuse this spell is neat, but a dread out of LOS that can shoot you isn't going to carry the game. Anyone else is going to be too close for LOS to really matter or is going to be using gate/sanctuary. You could put it on purgation squads, but purgation squads are just worse strike squads. Hammerhand has the same problems as astral aim, what where it's held back by units wanting a better spell. Remember, we can only know one of these spells on a unit. Also, lets say you've two terminator squads looking to charge. One has hammerhand on it. They both have a 55% chance to make that 9 inch charge. Our smite is trash at 1 wound 12 inches.
Now, lets get to the other problem we have. Every power armored unit, save interceptors, are worse strike squads. Purifiers can't deep strike, and have a worthless spell, so they're worse than strikes and interceptors. Purgators can't deep strike, and all their weapon are worse than storm bolters, save psillencers, but psilencers are only better than storm bolters are select targets. Interceptors are just strike squads that can bounce up the board instead of deep strike.
Are heavy weapons are horrible. Psycannons are worse auto cannons. They've less range, same damage output. They're bad. Incinerators are useless on an army that comes from deep strike. flamers have problems this edition. If your grey knight army is getting charged, you've probably lost already. They are too expensive for the points, and there is no good way for the army to actually use the weapon. Psilencers are bad, but storm bolters are just as good and cheaper 7/10 times.
Deep strike has been nerfed. the army needs deep strike to actually get across the board. almost all our shooting is 24 inch range, so in order to do anything turn one, we need to move. With deep strike being changed, we cannot do much if anything turn one.
Grey knights get diminishing returns. the first two dreadknights grand masters with 3++ and one moving in turn one and rerolling its charge with another on the way is scary. You can only get 2 grandmasters to a 3++. The next grand master is a bad investment unless one of them dies. The 4rth is right out bad. We've only 6(4) spells, so every unit that's a caster after the 6th is paying for something it cannot use.
Double swords! double swords double the attacks of strike squads (and all power armored units). They only make terminators gain 50% more damage. Because of this, an equivalent amount of strike squads always does more damage than any terminator unit (including paladins). Also, double swords are our best weapon vs almost all targets, and the price of them is built into the model, unlike hammers. This problem also applies to all the banner boys with their +1.
I will now explain why most the point changes are not helpful due to the above problems
Apothecary 25 point drop. This is a good change, the problem is, you're not going to run many of these. Another problem is that they're not going to be healing many units that need it. Paladins and Terminators are still bad. He is still a slow-moving terminator.
Brother captain 40 point drop. Just get draigo or a grand master dreadknight.
Brotherhood anchient 38 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Chaplain 39 point drop. It is a worse grand master dreadknight. It has a problem keeping up with friends in combat as well.
Dreadnaught 22 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Mutliples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first. The first is a worse venerable.
Grand master 30 points drop. Worse grand master dreadknight.
Grand master Dread Knight. 20 point drop. You're bringing this and draigo as your HQ choices and only these. Everything else is worse. You can try to argue reasons why other options are nicer, but 3++ is too nice for me to listen to you.
Interceptor Squads 2 point drop. they are worse strike squads but cost more. They can jump up turn one, this is their selling point. You have to bring these pretty much, and they are bad. The price drop helps, but it is too little. they are worse Strike squads, and strike squads cost too much.
Land Raiders, multiple flavors of points drops. Land raiders still have their old problems. They are squishy for points, have less fire output than a single leman russ, and a knight is more useful. Terminators don't need one for transportation. Terminators are bad. There is nothing to put in them. The points changes don't make them any less unnecessary.
Librarian/voldus. The point changes are irrelevant. Look, you can only cast 6 spells. Two of them are useless. These guys get bad smites. Why would you let one caster steal the spells from the rest of your army? You can use those spells just fine without them. They are actually hurting your army by being brought. They are only worth their stats and nothing else, their rules are useless tax.
Paladin Ancient. 42 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also, they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Paladin squad. 6 point drop. They are worse custodians. Just use custodians. Their spells don't matter, because custodians get a 4+ and access to storm shields, so sanctuary is meh. Hammerhand wouldn't be needed if they had Custodian grade weapons. Our heavy weapons such, so that's not a factor. Custodians get pretty much +1 to every stat compared to these guys for a small price hike. Custodians are bad, and paladins are worse custodians. The price change doesn't fix this. For the price of a full unit of custodians, you could get a lot of strike squads with more shooting power and better damage output. They're a worse strike squad, and strike squads are overpriced.
Purifiers. 7 point drop. This doesn't matter. they're still not cheaper than strike squads, which are better.
Razorbacks got their price changed, but are still 5 points more than they were in the codex. Razorbacks are still nerfed for grey knights. We cannot effectively reroll wounds in shooting. Razorbacks aren't useful for transporting our boys due to Deep strike or shunt or gate being used to move our units. We cannot make a gunline for them effectively, because our tax troops cost too much. Our only good HQs will be deep striking in, thus, they cannot buff these backfield shooters. Also, if you did do a parking lot, you'd be worse marines because we lack as many tools for a good parking lot.
Servitors. 3 points more expensive. They're just bad and marines can use them better.
Stormraven. Still 20 points more expensive than it was in codex. It is still a good unit. It's still better in normal marines. We do not need it to transport things. One could argue that it is a worse grand master dreadknight. I certainly would.
Tech marine. 36 point drop. It doesn't suck. You can't spam them. You might bring one or two. It doesn't fix the army. This is a nice change, however. Keep in mind, he can't keep up with the grandmasters, so the only vehicle worth bringing in the army he doesn't synergize with.
Terminators. 7 point drop. Oh boy, here we are. They're still bad. They are still almost double a strike squad member. Strike squad members have more shooting and don't get wrecked by multi damage. Strike squads are overpriced still. They also fill out troop tax for less. for the cost of 1 unit of terminators, you could have 2 strike squads filling out 2 troop requirements, and also, because of squad leaders, you'd be up 1 attack. Here is the big kicker though: Double swords double the attacks on strike squads, while it makes terminators go up by only 50% effectiveness. Double swords are the best melee weapon we have vs all almost all targets. 10 strike squad dudes with double swords is 20 str 4 ap -2 d3 dmg. With terminators, it's only 15.
Venerable dreadnaught. 25 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Multiples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first.
Brother captain stern. 52 point drop. He still has bad rules and is a worse brother captain. He also takes up a slot that could house a grandmaster dreadknight.
Castellan Crowe. 52 point drop. He is useless. He does nothing. Do not pay for him.
Draigo. 60 point drop. He's pretty good. Especially if he's making those two Grandmaster Dreadknights reroll everything to hit. He also is good in close combat. He has a 3++! The point changes make him viable! yay! Give GW a big hand for making a bad grey knight unit good. This is the first proof that GW can actually do it.
Wargear changes. I will be ignoring the space marine only ones because that doesn't help most of our units but does buff things that are worse grand master dreadknights.
Heavy incinerator 21 point drop. It might be worth taking now! Good to see the grand master dreadknight is worth it!
Heavy psycannon. 6 point drop. buff the grand master's baby walker. He needs it.
Incinerator, 5 points for infantry, 7 points down for terminators. This weapon sucks because it will never be used in the game. It's a wasted 7/5 points still when a storm bolter only costs 2 and can be used after deep strike. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Psilencer terminator, 2 points drops. The psilencer is better because it has more str 4 shots than a storm bolter per points (sometimes) and more damage. On a terminator, it is 8 points instead of 4. It is now(or rather still) a worse storm bolter.
Psycannon 3 points drop, 9 on terminators. They're still a worse auto cannon. It might be worth it to run them now on purgation squads. This is nice, this is the only change that changes how grey knights play in a healthy way. It is not, however, enough to save the army. Purgation squads still can't hit your army in deployment because the range on these things is only 24. you might still see these sprinkled in strike squads, but eh... we'll see. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Closing reasons why the above is sound reasoning. This also is the TLDR
As you saw above, I keep referencing the grand master Dreadknight. It is a good unit. It is better than all of our HQs, save Draigo. You will always run them. They are so good, they force everything else in the HQ slot to compete with them, and they lose. This unit is so powerful it dominates the codex, and forces everything else to bow before it. You will only have less than 7 HQ slots, and these guys and Draigo are needed in order to make your army pretend to work. They also make almost all vehicles seem lackluster compared to them. Boom, half the units are just worse Grandmaster dreadknights.
Strike teams also have the same problem. All non characters or vehicles units are worse strike squads. Strike squads also are overpriced. They needed a price drop too. So everything else by extension is still grossly over priced because they're a worse version of a bad unit.
Essentially, all the price drops were on things that are either outclassed, upgrades on things not viable, or had such drastic rules problems that they would be useless unless they were game-breakingly cheap. The few things that did get helped, either made the army more reliant on its crutch unit, or were on characters that aren't spammed, and thus don't really give us too many extra points extra. This is how you make so many price drops pointless. You buff things that cannot be taken, and everything else you buff doesn't get better than the units already dominating the codex (save grand master dreadknights).
Other armies got their list of viable units blown up and helped. I am having a hell of a time making my space marine army better and thinking up fun things to do with the new points drops. My tau feel a lot better with the changes, and I can finally use a lot of my older models. My mobile guard/scions list is now a lot more viable. My grey knights are now only useful as 2 dreadknights GMs and draigo for my guard because every dreadknight after the 2nd gives diminishing returns, and every unit after the 4th gives diminishing returns, and every HQ is bad compared to the stats per point on a baby carrier grandmaster, and all our infantry suck.
To declare that GK ware the big winners of CA18 is either one of the most brazen lies ever or a demonstration how a demonstration of how much they dont understand their own game.
New codex in Q19 is the only possible glimmer of hope, or proper shitstorm so GK get something in the FAQ for CA18
stormcraft wrote: To declare that GK ware the big winners of CA18 is either one of the most brazen lies ever or a demonstration how a demonstration of how much they dont understand their own game.
New codex in Q19 is the only possible glimmer of hope, or proper shitstorm so GK get something in the FAQ for CA18
The problem is I dont think there are enough grey knight players left to complain. Every person who picks up grey knights just abandons them quickly. All the new players who ever choose grey knights quit. Nobody is left to make a fuss.
stormcraft wrote: To declare that GK ware the big winners of CA18 is either one of the most brazen lies ever or a demonstration how a demonstration of how much they dont understand their own game.
New codex in Q19 is the only possible glimmer of hope, or proper shitstorm so GK get something in the FAQ for CA18
It's not a lie to say they got the biggest point drops of all. You might not agree with where everything should be, but that doesn't make them liars. It just makes you biased.
And I mean as in efficient stuff taken. GK got an auto take draigo, they often took before and the GM NDK points drop which they also took before too. The points drop on psycannons or other weapons is a thing, but those are still bad weapons, it is still not worth taking them over a stormbolter. On the other hand something like cheaper plasma or cheaper units is very much a thing for other factions. The techmarine, which got like a 50pts drop in the CA, still ain't worth the character slot and he still can't take a full servo harnas or a conversion beamer. All the GK point drops happened on units they are already take, and those are HQ so the impact of the change is much smaller, then having a point drops on something you take 10-20 times in your army. I gained a bit over 150pts in my army after the point changes, my friend who plays IG soup has a 200+pts points gap. His better army got more extra points or point drops, then my much weaker GK.
stormcraft wrote: To declare that GK ware the big winners of CA18 is either one of the most brazen lies ever or a demonstration how a demonstration of how much they dont understand their own game.
New codex in Q19 is the only possible glimmer of hope, or proper shitstorm so GK get something in the FAQ for CA18
Tbh after years of being a garbage tier army, I’m moving on. I’m selling them and moving on with my other armies. I have no faith in GW actually doing anything for the GKs, not with SoB coming up.
The constant nerfs to GK are a consequence of making an "army" out of the elite melee unit in someone else's Codex; we've got six "different units" that are fundamentally slight variations on the same "unit" to the point that one of them is usually just better than all the rest, they've all got the same incredibly restricted ranged arsenal that doesn't have the ability to credibly engage anything other than lightly-armoured single-wound infantry under the current rules, and the wildly inflexible list construction means we're incredibly sensitive to global rules changes that other armies would just laugh off.
Some of this is rose-coloured glasses; the Ordo Malleus book was far from perfect, and just going back and doing that again isn't necessarily going to go very far in this age of plasma-spam/battle cannons/Knights, but when the "Codex" is six slight variations on one melee infantry squad, four slight variations on one HQ model, the baby carrier, two of the playable bits of the Astartes motor pool, and Land Raiders, it's really quite hard to make anything out of it other than periodic ally fodder. Unless you want to make the one infantry squad all the squads are slight variations on powerful enough to bring us back to the days of the Purifier parking lot.
Fictional wrote: I always see GKs as a bit of an anomaly, theyre a specific purpose army that doesnt even do its job properly.
I know, I know, lore and such shouldnt determine the role of an army, all should be effective.
Such that a 500pt GK army should slaughter a 2000pt Daemon one, just because thats its "purpose".
You could bring "ignores Invulnerable saves" back out of 3e, but all you do then is make Daemons refuse games against GK players and make them impossible to cost ("this unit is worth five points against most people but fifty points if the other guy's using this one Codex...")
I think these points costs are about all we could have expected from CA.
What Marines (and by extension Grey knights need) is a complete overhaul to match the complete overhaul the 8th edition rule-set received.
Marines of all types need durability against the AP system, or they will never see play unless their points are dropped to an insane level, which, as CA has shown, won't happen.
Non-fly vehicles need to be able to fall back from combat and still function, or be able to shoot from combat, or they won't see play.
These are fundamental flaws in the current system that need rules changes, not points changes.
I would love to complain; but who the feth do I complain to anymore? I wrote emails, talked about it on here, I get people telling me to shut up it'll be fixed in CA2018.
Now they'll tell me CA2019
gak we still got Daedalus over here saying GUYS THEY DIDN'T LIE*
WHICH ISN'T TRUE, ADMECH got the biggest point drop. I know I play have an Admech army and it had enormous point drops everywhere, Cawl even had the same point drop Draigo had.
Didn't vanilla terminators get a bigger point drop?
I figured it would have been at least proportional, but GK isn't my main army and I now have no ambition to complete it. I really feel sorry for people with GK as their main army.
Maybe when Vigilus 2 comes out they'll be there and get a fancy formation because that's all there is to look forward to till CA 2019 which is not something to look forward to when 2018 hasn't been officially released yet....
They did the same (in fact Worse) to Sisters but at least we might get to change it whilst we wait another year for models "Emperor willing"
Its scary to see how mich GW dropped the ball on this for some armies - but hey some OTHER armies got cheaper plasma to expolit, Knights are still the same and Guardsmen are cheaper than Cultists.... joy.
It's 2018. Grey knights are probably the least compative faction in the game. Deathwatch is more or less not existing. Sisters of battle are rumored to be released soon. Can't we just get all these factions rolled up into a codex inquisition? Similar to the Imperial index but up to date. Maybe even some militarum temptestus and the inquisition as Troops and HQ? Please gw, please please please. Stop leaving our beloved factions in the dust and do something with it.
I feel if we don't then grey knights problems can't be solved.
Nerak wrote: It's 2018. Grey knights are probably the least compative faction in the game. Deathwatch is more or less not existing. Sisters of battle are rumored to be released soon. Can't we just get all these factions rolled up into a codex inquisition? Similar to the Imperial index but up to date. Maybe even some militarum temptestus and the inquisition as Troops and HQ? Please gw, please please please. Stop leaving our beloved factions in the dust and do something with it.
I feel if we don't then grey knights problems can't be solved.
Probably right.
They are not bothering with Sisters models till 2019 with the every present caveat "Emperor Willing" - so fething annoying that remark every time.
in 40 reality, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Sisters (esp Sisters) are more numerous and present in more battlezones than the oh so super snowflake Chapters that have attention constantly lavished on them.
Sisters of Silence they coulnd't be bothered with - but oh look more snowflake marine models and rules coming out.
jcd386 wrote: I think these points costs are about all we could have expected from CA.
What Marines (and by extension Grey knights need) is a complete overhaul to match the complete overhaul the 8th edition rule-set received.
Marines of all types need durability against the AP system, or they will never see play unless their points are dropped to an insane level, which, as CA has shown, won't happen.
Non-fly vehicles need to be able to fall back from combat and still function, or be able to shoot from combat, or they won't see play.
These are fundamental flaws in the current system that need rules changes, not points changes.
They can play with the points all the want but it's fundamentally a data sheet problem... it's why factions like Tyranids do so well and need little balance. They're data sheets are (for the most part) all awesome and, thus, can have points adjustments when things are needed with no problem...
Nerak wrote: It's 2018. Grey knights are probably the least compative faction in the game. Deathwatch is more or less not existing. Sisters of battle are rumored to be released soon. Can't we just get all these factions rolled up into a codex inquisition? Similar to the Imperial index but up to date. Maybe even some militarum temptestus and the inquisition as Troops and HQ? Please gw, please please please. Stop leaving our beloved factions in the dust and do something with it.
I feel if we don't then grey knights problems can't be solved.
Probably right.
They are not bothering with Sisters models till 2019 with the every present caveat "Emperor Willing" - so fething annoying that remark every time.
in 40 reality, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Sisters (esp Sisters) are more numerous and present in more battlezones than the oh so super snowflake Chapters that have attention constantly lavished on them.
Sisters of Silence they coulnd't be bothered with - but oh look more snowflake marine models and rules coming out.
I agree
The Deathwatch ALONE have more marines than any other chapter, with perhaps the exception of Space Wolves.
Sister of Battle have a force on every goddamn shrine world, along with already guarding the Black Ships, the Ecclesiarchy, fighting, working with the Ordo, and doing all of the admin work they got subsects for. Logically there should be more SIsters than Space Marines, even though we hear differently.
I am confused. So they can't fix stuff that wasn't nerfed in the first place? And I hope that a nerf required means something has to be good in the first place, because that would mean they would have to nerf draigo and NDKs. What the hell would be play then, not that playing now is fun.
fraser1191 wrote: Didn't vanilla terminators get a bigger point drop?
I figured it would have been at least proportional, but GK isn't my main army and I now have no ambition to complete it. I really feel sorry for people with GK as their main army.
Vanilla storm bolter + power fist terminators dropped by 6 points, GK terminators dropped by 7. So it was a fairly proportional change.
However GK terminators are still about 7 points more expensive than standard ones after the changes, and I agree their mini-smite, force swords, and anti-psyker grenades aren't worth that much.
EDIT: Nevermind, I just looked at chapter approved 2017 and saw that GK terminators had already dropped by 5 points back then. So they only went down 2 points this time. Yeah that's pretty dumb.
Nerak wrote: It's 2018. Grey knights are probably the least compative faction in the game. Deathwatch is more or less not existing. Sisters of battle are rumored to be released soon. Can't we just get all these factions rolled up into a codex inquisition? Similar to the Imperial index but up to date. Maybe even some militarum temptestus and the inquisition as Troops and HQ? Please gw, please please please. Stop leaving our beloved factions in the dust and do something with it.
I feel if we don't then grey knights problems can't be solved.
Deathwatch are solid mid tier and stand a decent shot at top tier with the points buffs to Terminators, primaris, and storm shields.
Arson Fire wrote: just looked at chapter approved 2017 and saw that GK terminators had already dropped by 5 points back then. So they only went down 2 points this time. Yeah that's pretty dumb.
So is CA 2018 standalone or do you need CA 2017 as well to use it?
Arson Fire wrote: just looked at chapter approved 2017 and saw that GK terminators had already dropped by 5 points back then. So they only went down 2 points this time. Yeah that's pretty dumb.
So is CA 2018 standalone or do you need CA 2017 as well to use it?
All changes in 2017 is also in 2018, you just wont have the missions from 2017 one, also IDK if custom land raiders are in 2018 one as well.
Arson Fire wrote: just looked at chapter approved 2017 and saw that GK terminators had already dropped by 5 points back then. So they only went down 2 points this time. Yeah that's pretty dumb.
So is CA 2018 standalone or do you need CA 2017 as well to use it?
All changes in 2017 is also in 2018, you just wont have the missions from 2017 one, also IDK if custom land raiders are in 2018 one as well.
That's great news. I wouldn't expect those things to be in the latest CA too (just like SoB won't be in the next one).
Honestly I think we should get all the Grey Knight players together to sort this out. Maybe in a soundproofed locked room with no wifi so we don't have to put up with the complaining every week.
Rolsheen wrote: Honestly I think we should get all the Grey Knight players together to sort this out. Maybe in a soundproofed locked room with no wifi so we don't have to put up with the complaining every week.
So we should just shut up when GW takes our army out back, shoots it in the head, and says they fixed everything when they only put colored tape over the bullet wound?
I'm sorry, I just went through the entire list and looked at the points changes. There are sweeping point reductions throughout the unit and wargear entries, to say otherwise is disingenuous. Could the army do with a few more effective changes? Yes, I think so...+1 attack on base PA dudes would be a start. But if you were expecting more of a points drop than you received, you have to be dreaming. The discount to characters, weapons, etc will make up for the lack of points drops on core units.
Right off the bat I can see that if you take Draigo (-60), a Stormraven with twin MM, twin las, etc (-24), shooty ven dreads (-40), GMNK with hvy psilencer and hvy psy (-26), etc., you are already at a 150pt drop which would more than make up for a 2pt saving on say 30 strike squad marines. It still doesn't get them where they need to be overall, but GW was not lying about drastic points drops.
The army doesn't have a points problem more than it has a rules problem. It needs better/cheaper strategems, veteran stats on all it's marines, and then we may be getting close.
Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,
Rolsheen wrote: Honestly I think we should get all the Grey Knight players together to sort this out. Maybe in a soundproofed locked room with no wifi so we don't have to put up with the complaining every week.
So we should just shut up when GW takes our army out back, shoots it in the head, and says they fixed everything when they only put colored tape over the bullet wound?
The army is dead, man.
It's not dead until you put the models down.
From an R&H player, keep moving with it, keep up the torch until GW fething squats it.
Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,
Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.
bullyboy wrote: I'm sorry, I just went through the entire list and looked at the points changes. There are sweeping point reductions throughout the unit and wargear entries, to say otherwise is disingenuous. Could the army do with a few more effective changes? Yes, I think so...+1 attack on base PA dudes would be a start. But if you were expecting more of a points drop than you received, you have to be dreaming. The discount to characters, weapons, etc will make up for the lack of points drops on core units.
Right off the bat I can see that if you take Draigo (-60), a Stormraven with twin MM, twin las, etc (-24), shooty ven dreads (-40), GMNK with hvy psilencer and hvy psy (-26), etc., you are already at a 150pt drop which would more than make up for a 2pt saving on say 30 strike squad marines. It still doesn't get them where they need to be overall, but GW was not lying about drastic points drops.
The army doesn't have a points problem more than it has a rules problem. It needs better/cheaper strategems, veteran stats on all it's marines, and then we may be getting close.
Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,
Why just not take a gulliman instead of a draigo and a NDK, same raven with same reductions, same dread, instead of strikes vets, hellblasters or intercessors and scouts. Better shoting, don't have to worry about baby smite getting stoped or failing to be cast, you also get new formations in the new book. You probably even have left over points to buy some IG to support. Your proposed army saves 150pts. Lets say the most optimal build saves 200, didn't other armies get the same. Ad mecha stuff drop even more then GK stuff, on units they actually take. IG got the same 150-200pts discount.
And by the way GW said that after the change GK players will want to play with paladins and purfires. Do you think that after the points discount, specially to plasma, any GK player wants to play with those two just like GW told them they would want to?
Quickjager wrote: I would love to complain; but who the feth do I complain to anymore? I wrote emails, talked about it on here, I get people telling me to shut up it'll be fixed in CA2018.
Now they'll tell me CA2019
gak we still got Daedalus over here saying GUYS THEY DIDN'T LIE*
WHICH ISN'T TRUE, ADMECH got the biggest point drop. I know I play have an Admech army and it had enormous point drops everywhere, Cawl even had the same point drop Draigo had.
ACK-SHOO-ALLY Cawl didn't quite get as much. Here's both minus the changes from CA2017
As you can clearly see your statement is false.
Ad Mech specific items got about 230 points of reductions. I can't see a couple to be sure.
GK specific items? 633 points.
Outside of draigo and the NDK which of the GK units or upgrades are actually getting used ?
Lets say you save 150pts, just like almost everyone else after the change. What do you buy with it? A single dreadnought, a razorback and uncomplet strike squad. You can't take more then 3 NDKs, but even fiting 2 and a draigo aint easy.
On the other hand for ad mecha something like the onagers getting cheaper can shift some stuff around.
Everyone email 40kFAQ with your concerns! I hate that we have to play this game but it is what we need to do. Make a massive stink about the poor showing for the grey knights.
Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,
Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.
I have written in pencil all of the points drops in the GK codex next to the original entry. 60% of the unit entries (that had a points value) got decreased, and this does not include those decreased in last CA.
Apart from draigo, you have significant drops to..
Brother Captain -40
Brotherhood Ancient -38
Champion -23
Chaplain -39
Dreadnought - 22
Grand Master -30
GMND -20
All Land Raiders -39 to -64
Librarian -44
Paladin Ancient -42
paladins -6
Purifiers -7
Techmarine -36
Ven dread -25
Combi-weapons (not all that useful granted)
Hvy Incinerator -21
Hvy psycannon -6
Incinerator -5
Missile Launcher -5
Twin las -10
Psycannon -7, 9 on a terminator
Twin MM -14
DCCW -10
In percentage of points dropped, all of these are significant. Of course, GK players will disagree because they wanted 50% point drops across the board.
My point is that the points dropped are significant. You will indeed get at least one additional unit in the force, maybe more. However, I also agree that the army still is an underdog in a competitive environment, but this cannot be fixed by point adjustments alone.
Brother Captain -40 wont be used you need slots for draigo or an NDK. also the point difference between draigo and any non NDK character makes the character bad
Brotherhood Ancient -38 does nothing
Champion -23 does nothing
Chaplain -39 does nothing
Dreadnought - 22 can fit 1 in to the list if all points drops are used on it
Grand Master -30 lol GMND -20 yes we took those before
All Land Raiders -39 to -64 no one takes those
Librarian -44 bad rules , no good psychic powers, there are other psykers in the army etc
Paladin Ancient -42 Has no utility and dies too fast in an army that has too few bodies to protect him. also we don't have hellblasters or some other units that would like the buffs
paladins -6 over costed
Purifiers -7 over costed
Techmarine -36 can't take harnass , ah and th e-36 is from the almost 100pts he cost before. so dont think a GK techmarine cost 15 pts or something
Ven dread -25 see dread
Combi-weapons (not all that useful granted)
Hvy Incinerator -21 lol Hvy psycannon -6 costs too much for what it does
Incinerator -5 bad as any flamer in 8th ed
Missile Launcher -5 I think Storm ravens can have those and that is it
Twin las -10 yes, nice goes on the dread
Psycannon -7, 9 on a terminator. bad weapon with bad stats, psi lancer is better vs all targets
Twin MM -14 sr weapon
DCCW -10 see dread
So the change from my perspective looks like this. Maybe I am wrong. I don't claim to be the best or even good player. Comparing to lets say the IG or eldar or Ad mecha changes there is a ton more stuff they can use.
My point is that the points dropped are significant.
Everyone got those drops though. All characters got cheaper for all marines. All dreads got cheaper too. So if we just compare GK to marines, and I think people would agree that normal marines of any sort were better then GK, then if the changes to GK are the same as the changes to marines. the state of GK does not improve. That is not counting the small possibility of a valid formation for any marine faction other then GK.
as the 50% goes, GK players actualy expected rules changes and points drops. The points drops the way they are now could be ok. If GK had their rules fixed too.
I mean do you seriously think that a 20+pts marine stat dude is a balance base for an army, in an edition where you either go horde or are super resilient?
Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,
Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.
I have written in pencil all of the points drops in the GK codex next to the original entry. 60% of the unit entries (that had a points value) got decreased, and this does not include those decreased in last CA.
Apart from draigo, you have significant drops to..
Brother Captain -40
Brotherhood Ancient -38
Champion -23
Chaplain -39
Dreadnought - 22
Grand Master -30
GMND -20
All Land Raiders -39 to -64
Librarian -44
Paladin Ancient -42
paladins -6
Purifiers -7
Techmarine -36
Ven dread -25
Combi-weapons (not all that useful granted)
Hvy Incinerator -21
Hvy psycannon -6
Incinerator -5
Missile Launcher -5
Twin las -10
Psycannon -7, 9 on a terminator
Twin MM -14
DCCW -10
In percentage of points dropped, all of these are significant. Of course, GK players will disagree because they wanted 50% point drops across the board.
My point is that the points dropped are significant. You will indeed get at least one additional unit in the force, maybe more. However, I also agree that the army still is an underdog in a competitive environment, but this cannot be fixed by point adjustments alone.
Yeah, I think people get their Hope's up too much. I think GW is just trying to be cautious so they dont accidentally cause new issues. I'm sure they tested dropping more points.
And hey maybe they do have some beta rules they want to try and those could always come in a big faq.
And since I like to play hq heavy this instantly drops a ton of points off my list without even evaluating the units, so I'm cautiously optimistic since I dont care about being top tier competitive, just playable.
I think the only thing that I would like is if i could opt out of force weapons on strike marines, then they would be a decent priced shooting core.
bullyboy wrote: I'm sorry, I just went through the entire list and looked at the points changes. There are sweeping point reductions throughout the unit and wargear entries, to say otherwise is disingenuous. Could the army do with a few more effective changes? Yes, I think so...+1 attack on base PA dudes would be a start. But if you were expecting more of a points drop than you received, you have to be dreaming. The discount to characters, weapons, etc will make up for the lack of points drops on core units.
Right off the bat I can see that if you take Draigo (-60), a Stormraven with twin MM, twin las, etc (-24), shooty ven dreads (-40), GMNK with hvy psilencer and hvy psy (-26), etc., you are already at a 150pt drop which would more than make up for a 2pt saving on say 30 strike squad marines. It still doesn't get them where they need to be overall, but GW was not lying about drastic points drops.
The army doesn't have a points problem more than it has a rules problem. It needs better/cheaper strategems, veteran stats on all it's marines, and then we may be getting close.
Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,
Why just not take a gulliman instead of a draigo and a NDK, same raven with same reductions, same dread, instead of strikes vets, hellblasters or intercessors and scouts. Better shoting, don't have to worry about baby smite getting stoped or failing to be cast, you also get new formations in the new book. You probably even have left over points to buy some IG to support. Your proposed army saves 150pts. Lets say the most optimal build saves 200, didn't other armies get the same. Ad mecha stuff drop even more then GK stuff, on units they actually take. IG got the same 150-200pts discount.
Calling bs on guard lists shaving 150-200 points from this CA. Ran every list I've used on battlescribe over the past six months and my highest points cut is 65, and that's mostly from the Sentinel price drop. You'd have to be running triple TC + triple sentinel to even crack 100 points saved.
Why the hell did they single GK then, to be the supposed fixed faction?The changes listed are changes that were done too all factions. Marine characters went down in points as did the weapons listed, plus a ton of other stuff. 2pts Stormshield for example.
I mean can people that say that GK got improved crack up the GK codex and look at the hyped up units ? Look at the purfires, then look at the armies being played in 8th. Would you want to use them post the CA change, just like GW told GK players they would?
Calling bs on guard lists shaving 150-200 points from this CA. Ran every list I've used on battlescribe over the past six months and my highest points cut is 65, and that's mostly from the Sentinel price drop. You'd have to be running triple TC + triple sentinel to even crack 100 points saved.
I don't play IG. my friend plays a soup IG list and when I asked him, how much his list droped he said around 200pts. And I bet his castellan didn't go down in points. If it did the forums would have exploded by now.
Karol, you pretty much just took a sweeping look at the army of what you take now and applied the logic to the new points. Instead, you should be rethinking your army composition based on the new points and looking for alternative methods to achieve a goal. Say a 5 man Purifier Sqd with 2 Incinerators. They dropped from 164 to 119pts. That's a 27.5% points reduction. D6 smite vs elite targets is no laughing matter, but yes you have to get super close. I'm not saying it's still a good choice, but each player will have to reassess their units to see if they now have a place instead of blindly saying "their trash" when that opinion was firmly embedded with the original points in mind.
and here is GW's quote
"Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing."
So did they lie? No,.paladins went down 12%, Purifiers 27%. Pretty much what they said is what they delivered. They did not say that "Grey Knight players will be so much more competitive than before!".
Smotejob wrote: Everyone email 40kFAQ with your concerns! I hate that we have to play this game but it is what we need to do. Make a massive stink about the poor showing for the grey knights.
how do you do the massive part. There do not seem to be a lot of people playing GK. And everyone not playing GK, says they are just fine after the change. With 50% of the proposals to play the army after CA being to add as much ally in to it as possible.
Now If CA messed up eldar or IG, I could imagine their mail breaking down under the weight of posts. I don't think GW is going to be willing to put changes in to a new book, even less a book we technicly shouldn't have seen yet.
Bottom line, GW did do what it said it did, but it still hasn't fixed the army. I think the real secret will be designing lists that take advantage of the biggest point drops in order to make up for the lack of change on some of the core units.
,
Tell me then, in your opinion, what units received the biggest points drop beyond Draigo? I really don't want to put words in your mouth because I think most GK players agree what the real winner of the points reductions were in regards to what GK units got cheaper.
In percentage of points dropped, all of these are significant. Of course, GK players will disagree because they wanted 50% point drops across the board.
My point is that the points dropped are significant. You will indeed get at least one additional unit in the force, maybe more. However, I also agree that the army still is an underdog in a competitive environment, but this cannot be fixed by point adjustments alone.
And my point (and every other GK player) is that while GW supposedly did what they said on the tin (they didn't), they in fact dodged the issue entirely in regards to what units needed the decrease. Your point is therefore meaningless in any practical conversation that aims to actually be constructive.
Do you know what these reductions actually achieved? It means we have 132 extra points when we take our triple GMDK supreme cheese taco detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GK were and continue to remain a "solved" codex.
Karol wrote: Why the hell did they single GK then, to be the supposed fixed faction?The changes listed are changes that were done too all factions. Marine characters went down in points as did the weapons listed, plus a ton of other stuff. 2pts Stormshield for example.
I mean can people that say that GK got improved crack up the GK codex and look at the hyped up units ? Look at the purfires, then look at the armies being played in 8th. Would you want to use them post the CA change, just like GW told GK players they would?
Calling bs on guard lists shaving 150-200 points from this CA. Ran every list I've used on battlescribe over the past six months and my highest points cut is 65, and that's mostly from the Sentinel price drop. You'd have to be running triple TC + triple sentinel to even crack 100 points saved.
I don't play IG. my friend plays a soup IG list and when I asked him, how much his list droped he said around 200pts. And I bet his castellan didn't go down in points. If it did the forums would have exploded by now.
There's no way he shaved 200 points off of 1400 points worth of guard. Does he have another imperium faction in his soup? I could maybe see it if he's running a lot of admech. But there's just no way he got that much savings unless he was doing something nutty like spamming sentinels and chimeras.
bullyboy wrote: Karol, you pretty much just took a sweeping look at the army of what you take now and applied the logic to the new points. Instead, you should be rethinking your army composition based on the new points and looking for alternative methods to achieve a goal. Say a 5 man Purifier Sqd with 2 Incinerators. They dropped from 164 to 119pts. That's a 27.5% points reduction. D6 smite vs elite targets is no laughing matter, but yes you have to get super close. I'm not saying it's still a good choice, but each player will have to reassess their units to see if they now have a place instead of blindly saying "their trash" when that opinion was firmly embedded with the original points in mind.
How do you get it in to range of anything. But lets be open minded. Right now I have 5 GK with halabards, 15 termintors, draigo , 2 rhinos and a NDK. To run any elite msu unit like purfires, I would have to have at least 2-3 of them. I also need troops, and with the point drops to plasma and armies growing in number those can't be termintors.
Ok, so 3 boxs of strikes, 2 boxs of purifires, the rhinos I have are ok, but 2 for 5-6 squads aren't enough, so I would have to buy 2-3 more, and it would probably be better to buy razrobacks, they cost more money, but can pull double duty as rhinos. then 1-2 dreads, as they seem to have droped in points and maybe with astral aim they will work nice. Everyone seems to be telling me to run IG for CP, so 3 boxs of infantry and 2 officers should make me CA ready.
I don't have the cash for it. And if I did, with the number of boxs needed I could go in to a different army, that works better. AND I wouldn't have to worry at night what happens if GW really decides to not give primaris to GK ever, and just removes GK from the game, and leaves me with cash sunk in to models that were never good and only made me unhappy for a year or two.
Also you do know what the range on purfires smite is?
You still need to step back and reassess your army, then come back and say it's trash. Just because GW didn't drop points on what you wanted to take doesn't make it trash. GK are not the only marine army struggling with their core troops choices. Take a Scions battalion to get your CPs and objective secured (Inquisitorial troops?) and spend the rest of the points on elite GKs. Marine armies will still suck with their core troop choices, it's not a GK problem.
I just think it's way too early to say this is a BS fix without a proper introspective analysis of the changes. You may still be right, but you certainly haven't given it the opportunity to prove yourself wrong.
Then we disagree what constitutes a core unit in an army is, can YOU tell me where GW says what a core unit is?
Core to me are not Elite choices, at the very least a core unit should be a unit that an army can be designed around to support. Which I do think GMDK can meet the criteria of.
"Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing."
So did they lie? No,.paladins went down 12%, Purifiers 27%. Pretty much what they said is what they delivered. They did not say that "Grey Knight players will be so much more competitive than before!".
that is some next level lawyer speak then. The point changes did not bring any flexibility or want of taking of overlooked units. If the rule of 3 didn't exist GK armies would probablly consists of multiples of GMNDKs. you think that with 12% drop on paladins anyone wants to run them, or the disfunctional purfires? Short range normal smite,and I mean realy short, unit that can't even deep strike on its own, not that deep striking wasn't nerfed. What the hell is it suppose to do the enemy? Walk to them, drive in a rhino out of which it can't cast, use the few CP to get teleported in and steal away CP from units that really need the CP every turn like the NDK?
I play with termintors and paladins, they make up most of my army, and they did not get better, not when plasma got cheaper.
Quickjager wrote: Then we disagree what constitutes a core unit in an army is, can YOU tell me where GW says what a core unit is?
Core to me are not Elite choices, at the very least a core unit should be a unit that an army can be designed around to support. Which I do think GMDK can meet the criteria of.
So I ask what is your actual point bullyboy.
My point is that GW delivered what they said they did, and most GK players currently haven't properly reassessed their army to see if notable and instead have thrown their toys out of the pram prematurely. Bottom line.
bullyboy wrote: You still need to step back and reassess your army, then come back and say it's trash. Just because GW didn't drop points on what you wanted to take doesn't make it trash. GK are not the only marine army struggling with their core troops choices. Take a Scions battalion to get your CPs and objective secured (Inquisitorial troops?) and spend the rest of the points on elite GKs. Marine armies will still suck with their core troop choices, it's not a GK problem.
I just think it's way too early to say this is a BS fix without a proper introspective analysis of the changes. You may still be right, but you certainly haven't given it the opportunity to prove yourself wrong.
but they said it themself that a GK player, not a world class super tournament guru who sees through triple veils of soup books, are going to be happy about the changes. There seem to be a ton of people playing other factions that are happy about stuff, some are more happy, some are less happy, some are happy that their good stuff didn't get nerfed. If I am wrong, and there is a more then 50% possibility of that, then where are all the happy GK players. That are happy that now they are going to be playing with their paladins and purfires and other unused GK choices? And this is not a troll question. Have anyone seen those GK players that are happy about the CA?
Karol wrote: "Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing."
I play with termintors and paladins, they make up most of my army, and they did not get better, not when plasma got cheaper.
I play Deathwing, so what's your point? Terminators didn't get fixed like you wanted them to, but I don't remember being told they would. So your army didn't improve, that's not GWs fault.
Quickjager wrote: Then we disagree what constitutes a core unit in an army is, can YOU tell me where GW says what a core unit is?
Core to me are not Elite choices, at the very least a core unit should be a unit that an army can be designed around to support. Which I do think GMDK can meet the criteria of.
So I ask what is your actual point bullyboy.
My point is that GW delivered what they said they did, and most GK players currently haven't properly reassessed their army to see if notable and instead have thrown their toys out of the pram prematurely. Bottom line.
If we're going there, bottom line is you're wrong. These changes did nothing in actually opening up actual options, which is what GW actually said they were going to do. Incinerators suck for the same reason other flamers on BS3 are bad which is you are paying points for D6 autohits, on top of that you're PAYING the privilege to lose your force weapon when you most likely want to charge whatever you are flaming. It's a solved codex, there is almost nothing you can throw out that isn't an idea someone thought of in that tactica thread.
If they actually wanted Incinerators to be viable? Should have made them free to swap in.
Do you have fun playing them, because I don't have fun playing GK. I spend all my confirmation money on it. My sister got a tablet, and at that time I though she made a stupid pick, because those break easy etc. She had 14 months of fun with her stuff. I had 0 months of fun with my stuff. I feel as if I had burned the money, and we have confirmation once per life, the next time I can expect such money is when I get to 21 in almost 8 years.
"So your army didn't improve, that's not GWs fault. "
if they didn't say they would fix it, I wouldn't be asking. I am sorry am not very good at subtel stuff. If someone tells me to wait till FAQ for a fix, then I do. I did so 4 times right now. Every FAQ or CA, when I don't see how the GK army is suppose to everyone tells me to wait, test, buy more of different armies and then am told to wait for next FAQ/CA, because that one will fix everything. I don't understand why GW said, maybe it is my english, that stuff will get better when it did not. Its like being hit at school 6 times instead of 4 times and expecting to feel good about it. I have enough problems with my mental health to worry, if GW really means the stuff it writes down, or if it is some lawyer talk where yes is no, no is maybe and no is never said, because no means people wouldn't buy stuff.
Karol wrote: "Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing."
I play with termintors and paladins, they make up most of my army, and they did not get better, not when plasma got cheaper.
I play Deathwing, so what's your point? Terminators didn't get fixed like you wanted them to, but I don't remember being told they would. So your army didn't improve, that's not GWs fault.
you changed the text, but it is not just termintors I have that didn't get fixed. nothing GK was fixed. Draigo and NDKs stayed the same. Do you know we have a normal non GM NDK, do you know its cost was not changed and it was bad costed comparing to the GM even before the CA changes? The point drops we got are linked to point drops other marines got, and by virtue of being indetical in case of same units or proportional in case of GK specific units, this means nothing changes for us. If all GK had a real cost of 2200pts in a 2000pts games before CA, and drop 200pts, but everyone else drops even 100pts, then GK are still 100pts over priced comparing to other armies.
Please show me the actual quote from GW where they promised to fix it. Seriously.
I've watched a few of TT Lawrence games with Grey Knights, and he's done quite well with them. Granted, he is a good player and would do a lot better with a different army, but he made them work, at the old points cost.
I do feel bad that GK players have a low tier codex, but this general defeatist, almost bratty "I'm shelving my army" mentality is pretty lame. Find some new friends, play some narrative games, do something to enjoy the damn models, for God's sake. Throw in some Guard, Scions, whatever, but at least be an adult about things.
I feel for you Grey Knights players. It was an army I was considering a while back, but here we are.
Grey Knights and Custodes are armies that, if they are too powerful, they aren't fun to play against, but if they're too weak, they can't win at all. It's a crapshoot.
Obviously if GW doesn't understand the problem even at this point, I'd say there's no hope until a new edition or new Codex. Shelve/sell your Grey Knights and move on with your life if you can't have fun with them.
Or wait to see how the meta pans out after people actually play the new points/rules and see what happens. LVO is at the end of January and we'll get our first taste of what could be the next 6 months of 40k meta.
bullyboy wrote: Please show me the actual quote from GW where they promised to fix it. Seriously.
I've watched a few of TT Lawrence games with Grey Knights, and he's done quite well with them. Granted, he is a good player and would do a lot better with a different army, but he made them work, at the old points cost.
I do feel bad that GK players have a low tier codex, but this general defeatist, almost bratty "I'm shelving my army" mentality is pretty lame. Find some new friends, play some narrative games, do something to enjoy the damn models, for God's sake. Throw in some Guard, Scions, whatever, but at least be an adult about things.
No, you.
/s
In all seriousness, we've been adults about it for years. Times up. Also did you see Lawrence's CA video? They share the same sentiments.
Don't fething tell people to chin up; do this instead say "yo dude I get you, let me write GW to share your sentiments". Show some goddamn solidarity with a fellow player.
EDIT: Actually Lawrence SHELVED his GK army he was going to take to LVO because of how extensive the points drops were for all the other armies.
AnomanderRake wrote: The constant nerfs to GK are a consequence of making an "army" out of the elite melee unit in someone else's Codex; we've got six "different units" that are fundamentally slight variations on the same "unit" to the point that one of them is usually just better than all the rest, they've all got the same incredibly restricted ranged arsenal that doesn't have the ability to credibly engage anything other than lightly-armoured single-wound infantry under the current rules, and the wildly inflexible list construction means we're incredibly sensitive to global rules changes that other armies would just laugh off.
Some of this is rose-coloured glasses; the Ordo Malleus book was far from perfect, and just going back and doing that again isn't necessarily going to go very far in this age of plasma-spam/battle cannons/Knights, but when the "Codex" is six slight variations on one melee infantry squad, four slight variations on one HQ model, the baby carrier, two of the playable bits of the Astartes motor pool, and Land Raiders, it's really quite hard to make anything out of it other than periodic ally fodder. Unless you want to make the one infantry squad all the squads are slight variations on powerful enough to bring us back to the days of the Purifier parking lot.
Part of the issue with the six same units is that each unit had a defined role in the Daemonhunters codex, and then with various powers they had defined roles in 6th/7th, even if the internal balance wasn't fantastic (especially when Purifiers lost their extra attack. Blech).
Now, with the limits of 1 cast for each power, you can't have all your Purgators cast Astral Aim. Strike Squads lost their zoning abilities when they lost Warp Quake and only one squad gets Hammerhand. It's ridiculous.
Isnt it a bit early to judge the whole book if everything you've seen so far are the point changes?
I've read somewhere that GKs Smite gets buffed. That'd be a pretty huge thing no?
Anyhow. GKs are still okay for casual pickup games. The Army as a whole has a problem that many other armies suffer from too: They're a one trick Pony.
If your opponent knows in advance you're going to field GK of course they'll load up on weapons that are good against them.
Your Opponent will know that you will not bring many tanks, no chaff infantry and that you will most likely try to deepstrike something. They'll know you wont have much anti-armor and overall only short-ranged firepower. It's pretty easy to field something that will counter all of that.
So, how DID you expect GW to fix the Grey Knights? You didnt expect them to bring out a new model range to go with CA18 did you? GKs are flawed in that they simply do not have the Tools to deal with certain things. They cannot be a complete army on their own since like 80% of their model range is footslogging elite guys which are kinda good at killing other footslogging elite guys and nothing else.
I feel sorry for you guys who are adamant about running solo GKs but I cannot see that army work properly without new models. Custodes for example only work because of their Jetbikes which are fast, tough and good at clearing hordes but can also take on vehicles.
bullyboy wrote: I play Deathwing, so what's your point? Terminators didn't get fixed like you wanted them to, but I don't remember being told they would. So your army didn't improve, that's not GWs fault.
I'm calling bull puckies on this.
If it's not GW's fault for not improving any 40K army whose responsibility is it? I mean GW writes the rules for the game which includes the rules and point costs for each model/unit in the game. If they're not responsible for improving the components of their own game then I have to question their ability to manage the game in any way.
Your statement leaves a lot to be desired in the logic department.
bullyboy wrote: Please show me the actual quote from GW where they promised to fix it. Seriously.
I've watched a few of TT Lawrence games with Grey Knights, and he's done quite well with them. Granted, he is a good player and would do a lot better with a different army, but he made them work, at the old points cost.
I do feel bad that GK players have a low tier codex, but this general defeatist, almost bratty "I'm shelving my army" mentality is pretty lame. Find some new friends, play some narrative games, do something to enjoy the damn models, for God's sake. Throw in some Guard, Scions, whatever, but at least be an adult about things.
No, you.
/s
In all seriousness, we've been adults about it for years. Times up. Also did you see Lawrence's CA video? They share the same sentiments.
Don't fething tell people to chin up; do this instead say "yo dude I get you, let me write GW to share your sentiments". Show some goddamn solidarity with a fellow player.
EDIT: Actually Lawrence SHELVED his GK army he was going to take to LVO because of how extensive the points drops were for all the other armies.
he also said he was going to go back and have a hard look at what could be done with the changes. His initial thought was that it still didn't help. But at least he's willing to go take a hard look. I'm not hearing that from many people.
I already wrote to GW, I'd like to say, about GK. Well, actually about alot of things in CA, but them too. I don't play GK, so I didn't know exactly what changes need done, but I gave them my opinion on it.
bullyboy wrote: I play Deathwing, so what's your point? Terminators didn't get fixed like you wanted them to, but I don't remember being told they would. So your army didn't improve, that's not GWs fault.
I'm calling bull puckies on this.
If it's not GW's fault for not improving any 40K army whose responsibility is it? I mean GW writes the rules for the game which includes the rules and point costs for each model/unit in the game. If they're not responsible for improving the components of their own game then I have to question their ability to manage the game in any way.
Your statement leaves a lot to be desired in the logic department.
Read more carefully. If I decide I want to run a pure army of deathwing terminators, no land raiders, no dreadnoughts, no stormravens, no knights, just terminators. Is it GW's fault that I would lose all the time? There is a difference between GW helping your specific army (which was shown) and GW helping a specific faction.
Jaxler wrote: Grey knights have been nerfed by chapter approved. The buffs to things like plasma, making it even more accessible than ever has left grey knights in a very bad spot. It is also worth noting that almost all of the points drops for grey knights were too little and honestly did nothing generally. The army is essentially now guardsmen plus draigo and 2 3++ dreadknight grand masters. Everything else is horrible, and of you play a fluffy grey knights list, look forward to getting tabled turn one by tau or guard.
Grey knights winning at points drops was a good joke, warhammer community.
Grey knights have been consistantly nerfed by rules changes for 3 editions straight. I don't get why GW hates us so much. It feels like I should just give up on the army ever being in as playable a spot as my tau, where I dont look through my codex going "I guess only two things here arent unplayable"
P.S. Good to see the inquisition is still dead.
I've stopped playing them, I'll use a unit or two in my guard or sisters army but I'm done with them until GW sort them out. I won't buy new models.
bullyboy wrote: I play Deathwing, so what's your point? Terminators didn't get fixed like you wanted them to, but I don't remember being told they would. So your army didn't improve, that's not GWs fault.
I'm calling bull puckies on this.
If it's not GW's fault for not improving any 40K army whose responsibility is it? I mean GW writes the rules for the game which includes the rules and point costs for each model/unit in the game. If they're not responsible for improving the components of their own game then I have to question their ability to manage the game in any way.
Your statement leaves a lot to be desired in the logic department.
Read more carefully. If I decide I want to run a pure army of deathwing terminators, no land raiders, no dreadnoughts, no stormravens, no knights, just terminators. Is it GW's fault that I would lose all the time? There is a difference between GW helping your specific army (which was shown) and GW helping a specific faction.
yes because thats exactly what deathwing was created for, to run an army of terminators, just like ravenwing and white scars was to run an army of bikes, if they fundamentally don't work then there is a problem.
stormcraft wrote: To declare that GK ware the big winners of CA18 is either one of the most brazen lies ever or a demonstration how a demonstration of how much they dont understand their own game.
New codex in Q19 is the only possible glimmer of hope, or proper shitstorm so GK get something in the FAQ for CA18
The problem is I dont think there are enough grey knight players left to complain. Every person who picks up grey knights just abandons them quickly. All the new players who ever choose grey knights quit. Nobody is left to make a fuss.
Probably because they end up playing them and are fed up auto-losing if you don't make a spamming cheddar list.
bullyboy wrote: I play Deathwing, so what's your point? Terminators didn't get fixed like you wanted them to, but I don't remember being told they would. So your army didn't improve, that's not GWs fault.
I'm calling bull puckies on this.
If it's not GW's fault for not improving any 40K army whose responsibility is it? I mean GW writes the rules for the game which includes the rules and point costs for each model/unit in the game. If they're not responsible for improving the components of their own game then I have to question their ability to manage the game in any way.
Your statement leaves a lot to be desired in the logic department.
Read more carefully. If I decide I want to run a pure army of deathwing terminators, no land raiders, no dreadnoughts, no stormravens, no knights, just terminators. Is it GW's fault that I would lose all the time? There is a difference between GW helping your specific army (which was shown) and GW helping a specific faction.
yes because thats exactly what deathwing was created for, to run an army of terminators, just like ravenwing and white scars was to run an army of bikes, if they fundamentally don't work then there is a problem.
Not really, terminators are a part, but the army will need Dreads for AT, transport for those not in teleport, other support elements (in regards to characters). Same with ravenwing (which I also play), it only works if all the units support each other correctly.
Yeah Dark Angels don't just deploy terminators unless other allies support them. They will have dreads, vehicles, tanks, fliers and the like, just like any other 1st company. The only thing GW needs to do is allow fast attack or elites to count as troops if you are making a Ravenwing, White Scars, Evil Sunz, Aspect warriors etc. Armies.
Can we all please stop with this "Plasma was made chaper so GK are more screwed?". It's complete BS.
For the last time. PLASMA.DID.NOT.GET.CHEAPER.
Only those forms of plasma that no one saw around were made cheaper! Marine's plasma guns, IG Veteran's plasma guns, even scion plasma gun... please tell me in the last year when was the last time you saw one of these in a competitive list! The only plasma gun you see around nowadays is the plasma gun in the hands of the IG infantry squad, which has still the same exact cost as before!
Also "Many of our buffs are the same as what marines got so it doesn't count"... are you serious? So if marines (another weak faction) got a buff together with you, you complain? You wanted this CA to be "All faction's point +20%, all GK points -80%"? Sorry to disappoint you, GKs are not the only faction who needed help, there were a lot things did CA needed to do, and buffing some marine stuff that was never saw on the table, was one of these. Note though that marines didn't receive a single true buff, because Gman is still at it's cost, same for smashcaptain and scouts and all that stuff that was part of the typical marine competitive detachment. Not even hellblasters and aggressors got a buff, because they were barely ok. Being one of the focal points of GW marketing plot didn't help them, because the aim of this CA was obvious (and well executed). Don't touch anything that right now is being played and buff everything else, with the exception of GK Necrons and Admech which should receive true buffs, because they are the ones needing the biggest help.
So you are no more competitive because some of those buffs are also in the hands of marines? Well let me tell you that it wasn't marines that gave you problems, it was Imperial soup, which despite some dubious claims thrown around in this thread, didn't receive a single buff, but on the contrary received huge nerfs, like the big price hike on the Artemia hellhounds. Or it was aeldari soups, which again have seen only nerfs. I'm sure that you weren't being punched around by mono wraith armies, correct?
I didn't see Magnus or Mortarion going down. PBC neither. Actually chaos got a huge nerf due to the cultist hike. Was it demon engines lists which were giving you troubles? No, they weren't.
All top lists didn't see a single point drop. You did, so that alone makes things better for GK.
No, this is not enough, that's sure. GKs will not be winning tournaments left and right after CA2018, we can all agree with this. But they surely got better, and at least now you can bring them to the typical local store game without attracting sympathetic looks from your opponent. They are still not top level tournament material, that is true, GKs after CA2018 are a mid-low tier army, which is already much better than being the faction which everyone agrees being the absolute worst one.
It's an improvement, maybe not as big as we all wanted, but is still a big improvement.
bullyboy wrote: Please show me the actual quote from GW where they promised to fix it. Seriously.
I've watched a few of TT Lawrence games with Grey Knights, and he's done quite well with them. Granted, he is a good player and would do a lot better with a different army, but he made them work, at the old points cost.
I do feel bad that GK players have a low tier codex, but this general defeatist, almost bratty "I'm shelving my army" mentality is pretty lame. Find some new friends, play some narrative games, do something to enjoy the damn models, for God's sake. Throw in some Guard, Scions, whatever, but at least be an adult about things.
No, you.
/s
In all seriousness, we've been adults about it for years. Times up. Also did you see Lawrence's CA video? They share the same sentiments.
Don't fething tell people to chin up; do this instead say "yo dude I get you, let me write GW to share your sentiments". Show some goddamn solidarity with a fellow player.
EDIT: Actually Lawrence SHELVED his GK army he was going to take to LVO because of how extensive the points drops were for all the other armies.
he also said he was going to go back and have a hard look at what could be done with the changes. His initial thought was that it still didn't help. But at least he's willing to go take a hard look. I'm not hearing that from many people.
EDIT: I give up, bullyboy here knows my army better than me and all the other dedicated players in the game. Obviously I'm just whining to whine. It isn't like we got someone named bullyboy calling all Grey Knight players whiners.
Do you know what these reductions actually achieved? It means we have 132 extra points when we take our triple GMDK supreme cheese taco detachment.
I think this is the wrong way to look at the changes. Old lists required 3 GMDKs. New lists need to be written ground up.
All GK lists will have 3 GMDK because they were some of the toughest units in the codex. All that happened was they got cheaper, warping the codex around them to an even more absurd extent.
Like let me explain why every list that wants to win as a GK list has three of them.
Imagine your best ranged unit is also the fastest melee platform, it has WS and BS 2+ w/ rerolls of 1s, has a 50% chance of saving any wound in the worst case scenario along with being T6. The only place it loses in compared to any other unit in the codex? Number of attacks, and if you ever get bogged down in a horde that is on you as a player for not actually using the stormbolters on the rest of your army..
I do kind of feel like we need to at least see how the meta pans out for a week or so before we make definitive claims. Almost every codex received major shakeups and on top of that the vigilus formations are coming as well. I doubt Grey Knights are going to be top tier because the very premise of their army is flawed and never should have been standalone anyways (they desperately needed to be in an inquisition codex alongside Stormtroopers and other things) but they could still see some sort of niche that may just require a different approach.
One thing I will say is that one of the reasons the admech/grey knight response is so different is that we have formations coming. If we didn't have those our excitement would be a lot more subdued because pts changes alone weren't going to fix some of our units. It took specific formations to give some of our units a reason to exist at all combined with pts drops that gave us something to be excited about.
If grey knights could get some formations they would be getting core tweaks as well, because apparently thats the only way we're getting real datasheet, relic, and warlord trait updates now. Kataphrons were very terrible until we saw the leaks and saw how the new abilities let them do what they should have done to begin with. Our kastelan robots used to be locked to one very niche build but with the new formation abilities you can go to the admech thread and see tons of excited discussion where each FW's abilities suddenly matter now and radically change how the unit plays. That's what GK needs. They're an army of special snowflake marines who honestly struggle to stand out even against regular space marines or guard. And then to add insult to injury Custodes exist who are basically just "marines but EVEN MORE AWSUM THAN GREY KNIGHTS TOO" and you really have to question why GK even exist at all.
Tl;DR I feel for GK. I still think they need to give the meta a chance for a couple of weeks after we see how things have changed since there were so many shakeups. That said no amounts of points changes can change crappy datasheet, WLT, relics, and abilities and if anyone has sympathy for you there it's admech players.
bullyboy wrote: I do feel bad that GK players have a low tier codex, but this general defeatist, almost bratty "I'm shelving my army" mentality is pretty lame. Find some new friends, play some narrative games, do something to enjoy the damn models, for God's sake. Throw in some Guard, Scions, whatever, but at least be an adult about things.
You're telling Karol - who, from one of his earlier posts in this thread is either 13 or 14 - to be an adult about this?
Sir Heckington wrote: I already wrote to GW, I'd like to say, about GK. Well, actually about alot of things in CA, but them too. I don't play GK, so I didn't know exactly what changes need done, but I gave them my opinion on it.
Hopefully they listen, but I doubt they will.
Given the book isn't out yet, I doubt if feedback emails will be being listened to yet. Might be worth resending when CA18 is actually released
I would certainly consider taking them to task over the spin in that WHC post - while sort of factually accurate, it was definitely a bit misleading (based on what we know at this point).
Spoletta wrote: Can we all please stop with this "Plasma was made chaper so GK are more screwed?". It's complete BS.
For the last time. PLASMA.DID.NOT.GET.CHEAPER.
Only those forms of plasma that no one saw around were made cheaper! Marine's plasma guns, IG Veteran's plasma guns, even scion plasma gun... please tell me in the last year when was the last time you saw one of these in a competitive list! The only plasma gun you see around nowadays is the plasma gun in the hands of the IG infantry squad, which has still the same exact cost as before!
Also "Many of our buffs are the same as what marines got so it doesn't count"... are you serious? So if marines (another weak faction) got a buff together with you, you complain? You wanted this CA to be "All faction's point +20%, all GK points -80%"? Sorry to disappoint you, GKs are not the only faction who needed help, there were a lot things did CA needed to do, and buffing some marine stuff that was never saw on the table, was one of these. Note though that marines didn't receive a single true buff, because Gman is still at it's cost, same for smashcaptain and scouts and all that stuff that was part of the typical marine competitive detachment. Not even hellblasters and aggressors got a buff, because they were barely ok. Being one of the focal points of GW marketing plot didn't help them, because the aim of this CA was obvious (and well executed). Don't touch anything that right now is being played and buff everything else, with the exception of GK Necrons and Admech which should receive true buffs, because they are the ones needing the biggest help.
So you are no more competitive because some of those buffs are also in the hands of marines? Well let me tell you that it wasn't marines that gave you problems, it was Imperial soup, which despite some dubious claims thrown around in this thread, didn't receive a single buff, but on the contrary received huge nerfs, like the big price hike on the Artemia hellhounds. Or it was aeldari soups, which again have seen only nerfs. I'm sure that you weren't being punched around by mono wraith armies, correct?
I didn't see Magnus or Mortarion going down. PBC neither. Actually chaos got a huge nerf due to the cultist hike. Was it demon engines lists which were giving you troubles? No, they weren't.
All top lists didn't see a single point drop. You did, so that alone makes things better for GK.
No, this is not enough, that's sure. GKs will not be winning tournaments left and right after CA2018, we can all agree with this. But they surely got better, and at least now you can bring them to the typical local store game without attracting sympathetic looks from your opponent. They are still not top level tournament material, that is true, GKs after CA2018 are a mid-low tier army, which is already much better than being the faction which everyone agrees being the absolute worst one.
It's an improvement, maybe not as big as we all wanted, but is still a big improvement.
Actually marines were just made more expensive, we didn't get any buffs.
bullyboy wrote: I do feel bad that GK players have a low tier codex, but this general defeatist, almost bratty "I'm shelving my army" mentality is pretty lame. Find some new friends, play some narrative games, do something to enjoy the damn models, for God's sake. Throw in some Guard, Scions, whatever, but at least be an adult about things.
You're telling Karol - who, from one of his earlier posts in this thread is either 13 or 14 - to be an adult about this?
Sir Heckington wrote: I already wrote to GW, I'd like to say, about GK. Well, actually about alot of things in CA, but them too. I don't play GK, so I didn't know exactly what changes need done, but I gave them my opinion on it.
Hopefully they listen, but I doubt they will.
Given the book isn't out yet, I doubt if feedback emails will be being listened to yet. Might be worth resending when CA18 is actually released
I would certainly consider taking them to task over the spin in that WHC post - while sort of factually accurate, it was definitely a bit misleading (based on what we know at this point).
Nah, I collect all faction accept tau, never sold an army or gave up on one. GK are just not fun to play anymore, it isn't a stubborn stand I just never feel like playing them, I'll play all my other armies until they are fixed. I mean our units get so badly shot up that you are left fighting with an army where most of your units consist or 2 or 3 units and there is nothing you can do with them. 40k is a game for the purposes of fun and GK's are no longer fun. Simple as that. Its not like orks where, they were low tier, but you could still have fun and fight to the end of the game etc. I loved playing orks pre-8th. I mean you just end up scooting your dreadknights about the table lol and I'm not a competitive player in the slightest, I'm not that bothered if I win, I'll take a defeat gladly if I can kill someones warlord in CC with Kharn etc. And I'm honestly not being biased GK's aren't even in my top 5 favourite armies, so I'm not as bothered as everyone else, but I agree with all the GK's players about how bad they are.
In several lists people completely forget that GK exist. When people ask which army is the worst and I say GK everybody agrees but forgot they exist. I blame Matt Ward who made GK so overpowered that we have needed several punishment codexes. The Daemon specialization means that unless we are facing Daemons we are disabled.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In several lists people completely forget that GK exist. When people ask which army is the worst and I say GK everybody agrees but forgot they exist. I blame Matt Ward who made GK so overpowered that we have needed several punishment codexes. The Daemon specialization means that unless we are facing Daemons we are disabled.
I've noticed that an apparent split is happening. People who don't play grey knights are claiming that people need to wait, and it's not that bad, grey knight players are thinking their army sucks still. I'd like to gently and slowly explain why grey knights suck, and why they still suck. I assumed I didn't need to break this down, but I will do so easily so even people with no understanding of grey knights can see the problem.
Here are key concepts and things required to understand grey knight's problems, that are not instantly apparent.
Grey knights pay for things they cannot use effectively. Each model has a force weapon built into the cost. All our infantry that aren't characters or paladins have 1 attack base or 2 in the case of terminators. You are paying out the nose for a weapon you can barely use. Everyone is a wizard! we can only use 6 spells (Really 4, but that's up next). Deep strike got nerfed, so a lot of times you'll be paying for deep striking units that can't deep strike, or have to wait until turn 2. So, grey knights are really just deep striking marines with storm bolters, that pay for gadgets they can't use. Purgation squads are paying for close weapons that are built into their cost that they trade away for heavy weapons. In fact, all our heavy weapons on power armored guys force us to give up the force weapon that we paid for already, and then make us pay for the heavy weapon.
Grey knights are not good at spells. Look at their spells. Vortex of doom is a horrible spell. It fails to go off 40% of the time, it only targets 1 model, so the AOE is rarely useful, and can hurt your own men. Purge soul is a worse smite. Oh boy, we've 4 spells then! Eh. Gate is great, but its use is kind of miffed by the fact that everything already has deep strike, or sucks, or doesn't need deep strike. Sanctuary is an amazing spell. Astral aim is a good spell, but is held back. It's really only good on dreadnaughts, so the one dread you run to abuse this spell is neat, but a dread out of LOS that can shoot you isn't going to carry the game. Anyone else is going to be too close for LOS to really matter or is going to be using gate/sanctuary. You could put it on purgation squads, but purgation squads are just worse strike squads. Hammerhand has the same problems as astral aim, what where it's held back by units wanting a better spell. Remember, we can only know one of these spells on a unit. Also, lets say you've two terminator squads looking to charge. One has hammerhand on it. They both have a 55% chance to make that 9 inch charge. Our smite is trash at 1 wound 12 inches.
Now, lets get to the other problem we have. Every power armored unit, save interceptors, are worse strike squads. Purifiers can't deep strike, and have a worthless spell, so they're worse than strikes and interceptors. Purgators can't deep strike, and all their weapon are worse than storm bolters, save psillencers, but psilencers are only better than storm bolters are select targets. Interceptors are just strike squads that can bounce up the board instead of deep strike.
Are heavy weapons are horrible. Psycannons are worse auto cannons. They've less range, same damage output. They're bad. Incinerators are useless on an army that comes from deep strike. flamers have problems this edition. If your grey knight army is getting charged, you've probably lost already. They are too expensive for the points, and there is no good way for the army to actually use the weapon. Psilencers are bad, but storm bolters are just as good and cheaper 7/10 times.
Deep strike has been nerfed. the army needs deep strike to actually get across the board. almost all our shooting is 24 inch range, so in order to do anything turn one, we need to move. With deep strike being changed, we cannot do much if anything turn one.
Grey knights get diminishing returns. the first two dreadknights grand masters with 3++ and one moving in turn one and rerolling its charge with another on the way is scary. You can only get 2 grandmasters to a 3++. The next grand master is a bad investment unless one of them dies. The 4rth is right out bad. We've only 6(4) spells, so every unit that's a caster after the 6th is paying for something it cannot use.
Double swords! double swords double the attacks of strike squads (and all power armored units). They only make terminators gain 50% more damage. Because of this, an equivalent amount of strike squads always does more damage than any terminator unit (including paladins). Also, double swords are our best weapon vs almost all targets, and the price of them is built into the model, unlike hammers. This problem also applies to all the banner boys with their +1.
I will now explain why most the point changes are not helpful due to the above problems
Apothecary 25 point drop. This is a good change, the problem is, you're not going to run many of these. Another problem is that they're not going to be healing many units that need it. Paladins and Terminators are still bad. He is still a slow-moving terminator.
Brother captain 40 point drop. Just get draigo or a grand master dreadknight.
Brotherhood anchient 38 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Chaplain 39 point drop. It is a worse grand master dreadknight. It has a problem keeping up with friends in combat as well.
Dreadnaught 22 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Mutliples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first. The first is a worse venerable.
Grand master 30 points drop. Worse grand master dreadknight.
Grand master Dread Knight. 20 point drop. You're bringing this and draigo as your HQ choices and only these. Everything else is worse. You can try to argue reasons why other options are nicer, but 3++ is too nice for me to listen to you.
Interceptor Squads 2 point drop. they are worse strike squads but cost more. They can jump up turn one, this is their selling point. You have to bring these pretty much, and they are bad. The price drop helps, but it is too little. they are worse Strike squads, and strike squads cost too much.
Land Raiders, multiple flavors of points drops. Land raiders still have their old problems. They are squishy for points, have less fire output than a single leman russ, and a knight is more useful. Terminators don't need one for transportation. Terminators are bad. There is nothing to put in them. The points changes don't make them any less unnecessary.
Librarian/voldus. The point changes are irrelevant. Look, you can only cast 6 spells. Two of them are useless. These guys get bad smites. Why would you let one caster steal the spells from the rest of your army? You can use those spells just fine without them. They are actually hurting your army by being brought. They are only worth their stats and nothing else, their rules are useless tax.
Paladin Ancient. 42 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also, they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Paladin squad. 6 point drop. They are worse custodians. Just use custodians. Their spells don't matter, because custodians get a 4+ and access to storm shields, so sanctuary is meh. Hammerhand wouldn't be needed if they had Custodian grade weapons. Our heavy weapons such, so that's not a factor. Custodians get pretty much +1 to every stat compared to these guys for a small price hike. Custodians are bad, and paladins are worse custodians. The price change doesn't fix this. For the price of a full unit of custodians, you could get a lot of strike squads with more shooting power and better damage output. They're a worse strike squad, and strike squads are overpriced.
Purifiers. 7 point drop. This doesn't matter. they're still not cheaper than strike squads, which are better.
Razorbacks got their price changed, but are still 5 points more than they were in the codex. Razorbacks are still nerfed for grey knights. We cannot effectively reroll wounds in shooting. Razorbacks aren't useful for transporting our boys due to Deep strike or shunt or gate being used to move our units. We cannot make a gunline for them effectively, because our tax troops cost too much. Our only good HQs will be deep striking in, thus, they cannot buff these backfield shooters. Also, if you did do a parking lot, you'd be worse marines because we lack as many tools for a good parking lot.
Servitors. 3 points more expensive. They're just bad and marines can use them better.
Stormraven. Still 20 points more expensive than it was in codex. It is still a good unit. It's still better in normal marines. We do not need it to transport things. One could argue that it is a worse grand master dreadknight. I certainly would.
Tech marine. 36 point drop. It doesn't suck. You can't spam them. You might bring one or two. It doesn't fix the army. This is a nice change, however. Keep in mind, he can't keep up with the grandmasters, so the only vehicle worth bringing in the army he doesn't synergize with.
Terminators. 7 point drop. Oh boy, here we are. They're still bad. They are still almost double a strike squad member. Strike squad members have more shooting and don't get wrecked by multi damage. Strike squads are overpriced still. They also fill out troop tax for less. for the cost of 1 unit of terminators, you could have 2 strike squads filling out 2 troop requirements, and also, because of squad leaders, you'd be up 1 attack. Here is the big kicker though: Double swords double the attacks on strike squads, while it makes terminators go up by only 50% effectiveness. Double swords are the best melee weapon we have vs all almost all targets. 10 strike squad dudes with double swords is 20 str 4 ap -2 d3 dmg. With terminators, it's only 15.
Venerable dreadnaught. 25 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Multiples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first.
Brother captain stern. 52 point drop. He still has bad rules and is a worse brother captain. He also takes up a slot that could house a grandmaster dreadknight.
Castellan Crowe. 52 point drop. He is useless. He does nothing. Do not pay for him.
Draigo. 60 point drop. He's pretty good. Especially if he's making those two Grandmaster Dreadknights reroll everything to hit. He also is good in close combat. He has a 3++! The point changes make him viable! yay! Give GW a big hand for making a bad grey knight unit good. This is the first proof that GW can actually do it.
Wargear changes. I will be ignoring the space marine only ones because that doesn't help most of our units but does buff things that are worse grand master dreadknights.
Heavy incinerator 21 point drop. It might be worth taking now! Good to see the grand master dreadknight is worth it!
Heavy psycannon. 6 point drop. buff the grand master's baby walker. He needs it.
Incinerator, 5 points for infantry, 7 points down for terminators. This weapon sucks because it will never be used in the game. It's a wasted 7/5 points still when a storm bolter only costs 2 and can be used after deep strike. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Psilencer terminator, 2 points drops. The psilencer is better because it has more str 4 shots than a storm bolter per points (sometimes) and more damage. On a terminator, it is 8 points instead of 4. It is now(or rather still) a worse storm bolter.
Psycannon 3 points drop, 9 on terminators. They're still a worse auto cannon. It might be worth it to run them now on purgation squads. This is nice, this is the only change that changes how grey knights play in a healthy way. It is not, however, enough to save the army. Purgation squads still can't hit your army in deployment because the range on these things is only 24. you might still see these sprinkled in strike squads, but eh... we'll see. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Closing reasons why the above is sound reasoning. This also is the TLDR
As you saw above, I keep referencing the grand master Dreadknight. It is a good unit. It is better than all of our HQs, save Draigo. You will always run them. They are so good, they force everything else in the HQ slot to compete with them, and they lose. This unit is so powerful it dominates the codex, and forces everything else to bow before it. You will only have less than 7 HQ slots, and these guys and Draigo are needed in order to make your army pretend to work. They also make almost all vehicles seem lackluster compared to them. Boom, half the units are just worse Grandmaster dreadknights.
Strike teams also have the same problem. All non characters or vehicles units are worse strike squads. Strike squads also are overpriced. They needed a price drop too. So everything else by extension is still grossly over priced because they're a worse version of a bad unit.
Essentially, all the price drops were on things that are either outclassed, upgrades on things not viable, or had such drastic rules problems that they would be useless unless they were game-breakingly cheap. The few things that did get helped, either made the army more reliant on its crutch unit, or were on characters that aren't spammed, and thus don't really give us too many extra points extra. This is how you make so many price drops pointless. You buff things that cannot be taken, and everything else you buff doesn't get better than the units already dominating the codex (save grand master dreadknights).
Other armies got their list of viable units blown up and helped. I am having a hell of a time making my space marine army better and thinking up fun things to do with the new points drops. My tau feel a lot better with the changes, and I can finally use a lot of my older models. My mobile guard/scions list is now a lot more viable. My grey knights are now only useful as 2 dreadknights GMs and draigo for my guard because every dreadknight after the 2nd gives diminishing returns, and every unit after the 4th gives diminishing returns, and every HQ is bad compared to the stats per point on a baby carrier grandmaster, and all our infantry suck.
I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.
chnmmr wrote: I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.
Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.
They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.
chnmmr wrote: I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.
Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.
They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.
Yes but for an army with only a nerfed deep strike for manoeuvrability, 12 inch ignore terrain can’t be ignored.
chnmmr wrote: I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.
Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.
They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.
Yes but for an army with only a nerfed deep strike for manoeuvrability, 12 inch ignore terrain can’t be ignored.
Good luck keeping them alive is all I'm saying. Also, consider this:
They're worse grand master Dreadknights. Strike squads are needed as they fill out troop choices, so they've one thing over Grand master Dreadknights. 10 interceptors are worse than a GM dreadknight for the cost.
Yup, blame the guy who actually made the only balanced and fun GK book
I have no idea why this dumb 4chan hate myth is still alive, I played both as GK and against GK vs SM, the very first 5th edition book, and it was never an uphill fight for either side and either player could win provided the list wasn't terrible. Unless you refused to adapt, you could have won against GK with pretty much any 5th edition army, they had a lot of strength in their own niche but a lot of glaring weaknesses too to balance them (such as even lower number count and durability than today). Pretty much the only people I have seen complaining against GK were bad players trying to repeat strategies that worked against weak 3rd edition Daemonhunters book then whining that didn't worked (or people who think flyers were introduced in 5th and conflate early 6th edition flyer spam with Ward, something he wasn't responsible for in any way whatsoever...).
People really need to stop repeating this nonsense, especially after GK books in three editions in a row proved how good job Ward did compared to his successors...
chnmmr wrote: I’d argue Interceptors are the best GK infantry due to their 12 inch ignore all terrain movement, and once per game teleport. The only thing strikes have over them is being troops.
Strikes cost two less per point, the troop thing is substantially important. 12 inch movement doesn't matter too much when the unit is so fragile for it's points and it'll die the turn after shunt most likely. They cannot hide in deep strike.
They have one selling point, and that's the shunt. If you can hide them all out of LOS turn one, then they're not so bad, but they still have all the pricing problems that strike squads have.
Yes but for an army with only a nerfed deep strike for manoeuvrability, 12 inch ignore terrain can’t be ignored.
Good luck keeping them alive is all I'm saying. Also, consider this:
They're worse grand master Dreadknights. Strike squads are needed as they fill out troop choices, so they've one thing over Grand master Dreadknights. 10 interceptors are worse than a GM dreadknight for the cost.
Let me repeat, of the INFANTRY, I think Interceptors are the best in utility and strikes beat them only because they are troops. I’m not talking about GMNDK. And any weakness Interceptors have, so do strikes, but at least Interceptors are more manoeuvrable. Do I think they are good? Not really, too expensive. But that can be said about everything GK. I think the choice between strikes and interceptors is the only choice GKs get to make. Never take termites over paladins. Never take NDK over GMNDK, never take pity/purifier over strike. But interceptors and strikes? There is a decision to be made between the two.
As someone who defended Grey Knights during 5th edition, they were blatantly overpowered compared to everyone else. Internal balance was really spot-on, but externally? Oh dear...
Emulgator wrote: ah I see we went from the wait for the next "insert CA/FAQ whatever here" to the good old "youre just not playing your army correctly" again
The thing is very likely that none of these people has even tried to sit down and make a new list. They saw they didn't get what they expected and noped out mentally.
Yup, blame the guy who actually made the only balanced and fun GK book
I have no idea why this dumb 4chan hate myth is still alive, I played both as GK and against GK vs SM, the very first 5th edition book, and it was never an uphill fight for either side and either player could win provided the list wasn't terrible. Unless you refused to adapt, you could have won against GK with pretty much any 5th edition army, they had a lot of strength in their own niche but a lot of glaring weaknesses too to balance them (such as even lower number count and durability than today). Pretty much the only people I have seen complaining against GK were bad players trying to repeat strategies that worked against weak 3rd edition Daemonhunters book then whining that didn't worked (or people who think flyers were introduced in 5th and conflate early 6th edition flyer spam with Ward, something he wasn't responsible for in any way whatsoever...).
People really need to stop repeating this nonsense, especially after GK books in three editions in a row proved how good job Ward did compared to his successors...
Matt Ward also has the distinction of writing LOTR Skirmish, which is among the best games GW has ever made for striking a solid balance between factions. It's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good when you look at 40k, Fantasy, and Kill Team. Dude gets too much flak for poor fluff when his rules make putting up with said absurd fluff justified.
ValentineGames wrote: All I'm reading is
"Grey Knights suck because they're entire army is worse GRAND MASTER DEADKNIGHTS!!!!!!!!111111!!!×==÷!!!!!!!!!!"
Hard to really take the complaints of Grey Knights players seriously isn't it?...
I gave a decent breakdown as to why strike squads make all other infantry irrelevant besides interceptors and even strike squads and interceptors are overpriced, but you can just ignore that instead of actually looking at the information I presented.
Assuming the HQ slot isn't bad, and that they are all balanced VS the GMDK you still run into the problem where all other HQs are force multipliers but have nothing worth their points to support. I admit that ancients, apothecaries and tech marines are in a good spot, but again they have the problem of supporting bad units that are still bad.
"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."
Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.
You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"
Emulgator wrote: ah I see we went from the wait for the next "insert CA/FAQ whatever here" to the good old "youre just not playing your army correctly" again
The thing is very likely that none of these people has even tried to sit down and make a new list. They saw they didn't get what they expected and noped out mentally.
I actually went through every individual point raise and realized that they fail to do enough to shake up the internal balance, and buff things that are either outclassed or unplayable. they did not change the balence enough for strike squads/interceptors and GMDKs to be the best options universally. Because the buffs didn't do enough to make the bad options in the list compete with the mediocre ones in the list, I have concluded that the army list is still bad, because the overall strength of the army thus hasn't been raised. The army already sucked as codex strikes and GMDK, it is still codex GMDK and strikes.
"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."
Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.
You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"
You act like options 3 can't be "Actually make them pay appropriately for those force weapon's when they're only 1 attack each" or even better "Give them an extra attack base"
Grey knights don't suck because they pay for force weapons, they suck because they pay for force weapons when they can barely use them at 1 attack base, and because they pay for being wizards that suck at spells, and because they pay for deepstrike that only half the army can use. They also pay for those force weapons even if they trade them out for heavy weapons, which means they should never take heavy weapons. See, those force weapons have their cost built into the model, so when I trade them out for a psycannon, I'm paying the cost of the now non-existant weapon, and the cost of the heavy one.
ValentineGames wrote: All I'm reading is
"Grey Knights suck because they're entire army is worse GRAND MASTER DEADKNIGHTS!!!!!!!!111111!!!×==÷!!!!!!!!!!"
Hard to really take the complaints of Grey Knights players seriously isn't it?...
You made the exact point that you're missing. Because of how similar the roles/performance of the units are in GK, everything can be effectively measured on the same cline, with only the top performer remaining relevant. Strike squads are the sole exception due to higher CP generation and ObSec. I used to play them in 7th but instantly realised their trash status in 8th when I saw their converted weapon profiles and nerfed psychics.
A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.
This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.
The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.
Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.
"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."
Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.
You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"
The issue here is that the cost of the force weapons is built into the cost of the base model, instead of paid for separately.
You act like options 3 can't be "Actually make them pay appropriately for those force weapon's when they're only 1 attack each" or even better "Give them an extra attack base"
Grey knights don't suck because they pay for force weapons, they suck because they pay for force weapons when they can barely use them at 1 attack base, and because they pay for being wizards that suck at spells, and because they pay for deepstrike that only half the army can use. They also pay for those force weapons you were talking about even if they trade them out for heavy weapons, which means they should never take heavy weapons, because the heavy weapon costs it's base cost plus the cost of the force weapon that's built into the model's cost.
1 attack base isn't "can barely use force weapons". 1 force weapon attack is pretty scary, esp. hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's. Your entire squad has -3 rend d3 damage weapons, and does indeed have 2 attacks with the Falchions.
The wizards that suck at spells thing is unfortunate. Do you think they pay more than 1 ppm?
The heavy weapon issue is dumb, I grant you that. I would price GK the following:
13 pt tac Marine, +2 storm bolter, +6 force weapon, +1 Psy power (shouldn't be free). Everything else is an army rule (e.g. deepstrike, Aegis of the Emperor, etc).
So about 22 pts. 21 if we can say that "is a psyker" is an army ability, which I suppose is reasonable. What are they actually at ATM?
"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."
Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.
You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"
The issue here is that the cost of the force weapons is built into the cost of the base model, instead of paid for separately.
Yes. This is a transgression. Make GKtac Marines with mandatory force weapons and storm bolters, but cost the latter pair separately. would that fix the army overnight?
Daedalus81 wrote: A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.
This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.
The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.
Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.
The storm raven is a worse GMDK. The dreads are worse GMDKs. The purifiers would be better off as strikes or interceptors who dont need the taxi, so you can spend the points of said taxi on more GMDK.
You have GMDKs, so you can invest the points you blew on the tech marine on the GMDKs.
Also purifiers getting off that single D6 smite on turn two after forcing you to buy a taxi, and then getting close enough to do it, is a horrible investment. Remember, d6 is on average 1 wound more than d3, so essentially you get 3 smites off from that 577 point investment, from a unit that doesn't fill troop slots or move in turn one. The storm raven is good, but honestly you'd be better off filling it with vanguards and playing blood Angels.
Also purifiers have a 3 inch d6 smite. Not 6 inch.
Jaxler, that is a good write up, and highlights many of the issues of GK. With that being said, all of you basically set yourselves up for failure with this CA as points changes are not going to fix the army (which I stated in most of my posts).
Let's look at that strike marine..
he's a marine, so that's 13pts....indisputable, we all pay that. That cost did not change for any of of us (but hey, I play Deathwatch, my dude is a vet and got 2 pts cheaper, lolz...I didn't understand that at all)
he has a stormbolter, so +2pts
you have a power weapon that does D3 damage. If you look at Librarians, force weapons are always twice the cost of a basic power weapon. You are not a character though, so let's cut that in half. That's still 2 points for the power weapon and 2pts for the D3 damage.
you have psychic attack AND defence (amazes me how GKs never address their infinite denies). Yeah, most of the psychics aren't great, but guess what, that's pretty much universal on most Astartes armies. However, with the above points, you are only paying 2pts per marine for it. So in a 5 man squad, that's 10pts to have a psychic power and deny. Maybe this should be just +1pt, since a dread only pays 5pts to be a psyker. But is strikes dropped to 20pts each, I'm pretty sure we would still be at the same place.
Seriously, how can you expect points to change this? Maybe, you subtract the psychic cost as that basically is your Chapter tactic.
60% of the units took around a 20-30% discount, so that is significant. It probably just doesn't solve the problem. However, nobody has really looked at it yet.
GKs should be vets, period. +1 attack on their basic PA marines. You can't up terminators as all other terminators are only 2 attacks (that's my Deathwing knights, Deathwatch terms etc). I guess GW disagrees with this position.
Let's talk about the psycannon. It's now 7pts. But let's say it's actually 11pts because you lose the force weapon to get it, so that has to be pointed in (which I feel it is in all those weapons, you didn't lose the force weapon points, it's costed in the weapon that replaces it). It's 50% cheaper than an assault cannon, has the same range, +1 S, same AP, and same damage. It has 2 less shots. Please don't tell me that's not a good points value, not when directly compared to an assault cannon which I have never heard anyone say sucks.
GKs are a power armoured marine army, and those just aren't doing well anywhere. I think Deathwatch right now are looking pretty good because some of the points adjustments directly affect them. We now pay 18pts for a vet marine with a stormbolter, 20pts if you now give it a stormshield. With SIA, that's some insane stuff right there. Grey Knights cannot match that, no inherent invuln in their units, basic SBs (which aren't bad this edition, but DW take them to level 11). DW also have a good Chapter tactic, GKs don't.
Bottom line, points doesn't save this army. However, they did get significantly cheaper, and finding out how o maximize that gain is up to the player.
As for the GMDK, I've seen many reports where they are taking just one. This myth of "all you see is 3 GMDKs" is just that, a myth.
@Jaxler, in a later post above, you're comparing everything to a GMDK. That's a bit silly. At 145pts, you can get twin las, ML ven dreads to do some serious work.
You act like options 3 can't be "Actually make them pay appropriately for those force weapon's when they're only 1 attack each" or even better "Give them an extra attack base"
Grey knights don't suck because they pay for force weapons, they suck because they pay for force weapons when they can barely use them at 1 attack base, and because they pay for being wizards that suck at spells, and because they pay for deepstrike that only half the army can use. They also pay for those force weapons you were talking about even if they trade them out for heavy weapons, which means they should never take heavy weapons, because the heavy weapon costs it's base cost plus the cost of the force weapon that's built into the model's cost.
1 attack base isn't "can barely use force weapons". 1 force weapon attack is pretty scary, esp. hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's. Your entire squad has -3 rend d3 damage weapons, and does indeed have 2 attacks with the Falchions.
The wizards that suck at spells thing is unfortunate. Do you think they pay more than 1 ppm?
The heavy weapon issue is dumb, I grant you that. I would price GK the following:
13 pt tac Marine, +2 storm bolter, +6 force weapon, +1 Psy power (shouldn't be free). Everything else is an army rule (e.g. deepstrike, Aegis of the Emperor, etc).
So about 22 pts. 21 if we can say that "is a psyker" is an army ability, which I suppose is reasonable. What are they actually at ATM?
"GK ARE BAD because our dudes have to pay for force weapons."
Okay. So, I suppose your options are:
1) not pay for force weapons, because an entire squad of power swords for free is "balance"
2) take force weapons away from GK.
You could do the latter, but don't you think that would ruin the feel of the army? I get the impression people play GK to have a super cool elite army with better wargear than the regular SM. It seems silly to turn right around and say "I don't want better wargear than SM" or even worse "I want it but should have it for free!"
The issue here is that the cost of the force weapons is built into the cost of the base model, instead of paid for separately.
Yes. This is a transgression. Make GKtac Marines with mandatory force weapons and storm bolters, but cost the latter pair separately. would that fix the army overnight?
Strike squads are 21 points...
They wound on 4s usually, not threes with those weapons. 105 points for on average. They suck at killing small stuff because the de is wasted. They suck at big things because low str or low ap.
5 strike squad members with double swords attacking a MEQ kill on average kill 2 MEQ. That's 2 whole tac marines. Enjoy those 26 points back after 2-3 turns of set up. Assuming each force weapon cost 6 points, you have lost points assuming you dont get another round of combat, which you wont.
Next, you will on average kill 1 terminator in cc
You will kill 4 guardsmen on average on average.
You will kill 1 primaris.
I dont consider this scary cc like you imply. In fact I would call it middling. They also cannot use those psy powers.
Also bully boy, before people stopped using grey knights at all at tournies, people were running 3 dread knights with guard. When I play the army, that's basically all I run plus some strike squads I inevitably regret bringing when they just never trade up.
Also those dreads would look a lot better sitting next to Bobby G of the ultra Smurfs. They are always going to be better in a space marine list. This doesn't mean they are bad in a grey knight list, but they are being held back by the army. You could maybe do a motorcade/Walker army backed up by draigo, but I promise you that you would just be a worse ultra marines,with less CP.
Daedalus81 wrote: A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.
This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.
The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.
Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.
The storm raven is a worse GMDK. The dreads are worse GMDKs. The purifiers would be better off as strikes or interceptors who dont need the taxi, so you can spend the points of said taxi on more GMDK.
You have GMDKs, so you can invest the points you blew on the tech marine on the GMDKs.
Also purifiers getting off that single D6 smite on turn two after forcing you to buy a taxi, and then getting close enough to do it, is a horrible investment. Remember, d6 is on average 1 wound more than d3, so essentially you get 3 smites off from that 577 point investment, from a unit that doesn't fill troop slots or move in turn one. The storm raven is good, but honestly you'd be better off filling it with vanguards and playing blood Angels.
Also purifiers have a 3 inch d6 smite. Not 6 inch.
Brother Captain makes their smite 6". D6 is swingy, but has a really high potential.
I think you need to stop thinking about GMDKs for a bit. It comes in at 259 with teleporter, fists, psilencer, and psycannon. I can fit two ven dreads in who have a higher toughness, a higher total number (16 vs 12) of non-degarding wounds, a 6+++ instead of a 4++ (which is still useful), and longer range. They have 4 S8 AP3 D2 over 6 S7 AP1 D2 and 2 ML shots 12 S4 AP0 D3 on the same BS. They don't have a 2+, but that's more than made up in wounds and toughness. There is also an option for smoke launchers.
Daedalus81 wrote: A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.
This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.
The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.
Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.
The storm raven is a worse GMDK. The dreads are worse GMDKs. The purifiers would be better off as strikes or interceptors who dont need the taxi, so you can spend the points of said taxi on more GMDK.
You have GMDKs, so you can invest the points you blew on the tech marine on the GMDKs.
Also purifiers getting off that single D6 smite on turn two after forcing you to buy a taxi, and then getting close enough to do it, is a horrible investment. Remember, d6 is on average 1 wound more than d3, so essentially you get 3 smites off from that 577 point investment, from a unit that doesn't fill troop slots or move in turn one. The storm raven is good, but honestly you'd be better off filling it with vanguards and playing blood Angels.
Also purifiers have a 3 inch d6 smite. Not 6 inch.
Brother Captain makes their smite 6". D6 is swingy, but has a really high potential.
I think you need to stop thinking about GMDKs for a bit. It comes in at 259 with teleporter, fists, psilencer, and psycannon. I can fit two ven dreads in who have a higher toughness, a higher total number (16 vs 12) of non-degarding wounds, a 6+++ instead of a 4++ (which is still useful), and longer range. They have 4 S8 AP3 D2 over 6 S7 AP1 D2 and 2 ML shots 12 S4 AP0 D3 on the same BS. They don't have a 2+, but that's more than made up in wounds and toughness. There is also an option for smoke launchers.
Those grand masters reroll 1s, and you can get two of them 3++
Now you are paying for a bad character to buff your bad units when you could of just gotten more interceptors/strikes who get there for cheaper, get there faster and more reliably, and arent wasted if the taxi pops too early.
And that taxi will pop. Only an idiot doesn't kill your flyer turn one and ruin your 600 point investment and make 1/3 of your list irrelevant.
Really? my Deathwatch list has 2 of them...no Bobby G. I'm also considering adding a 3rd, now they are 25pts cheaper than before. I'm really liking the ven dread now.
Your Chapter Tactic isn't all that bad actually, especially since the cost to cast Smite is always the same (unlike other armies). Knocking mortal wounds is crazy, no matter how few you get. 33% of the time, a normal smite will do the same damage (btw, GK Libbys should get normal Smite, that IS silly). If the complaint is that it does't do anything vs screens and chaff, well, neither does anyone's smite. Luckily you have stormbolters for that.
If you are plinking off 2, 3 or even 4 mortal wounds of something that you're now going to hit with your heavy hitters, that can make the difference between a dead model, and one left on 1 or 2 wounds.
edit: Like all marine lists, it's probably better to bulk out the army with some cheap chaff. Call them inquisitorial troops or whatever. I held off for my Deathwatch because I wanted to see how GW addressed soup. Well, I guess they didn't so now I'm going to hop on the Guard assist wagon.
They wound on 4s usually, not threes with those weapons. 105 points for on average. They suck at killing small stuff because the de is wasted. They suck at big things because low str or low ap.
5 strike squad members with double swords attacking a MEQ kill on average kill 2 MEQ. That's 2 whole tac marines. Enjoy those 26 points back after 2-3 turns of set up. Assuming each force weapon cost 6 points, you have lost points assuming you dont get another round of combat, which you wont.
Next, you will on average kill 1 terminator in cc
You will kill 4 guardsmen on average on average.
You will kill 1 primaris.
Your math is a little off.
Assuming falchions --
11 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 2.4 marines, which with force swords is also 2.4 primaris (force weapons matter)
4.9 IG 3.7 wounds to terminators so almost 2 (again - force weapons matter)
They wound on 4s usually, not threes with those weapons. 105 points for on average. They suck at killing small stuff because the de is wasted. They suck at big things because low str or low ap.
5 strike squad members with double swords attacking a MEQ kill on average kill 2 MEQ. That's 2 whole tac marines. Enjoy those 26 points back after 2-3 turns of set up. Assuming each force weapon cost 6 points, you have lost points assuming you dont get another round of combat, which you wont.
Next, you will on average kill 1 terminator in cc
You will kill 4 guardsmen on average on average.
You will kill 1 primaris.
Your math is a little off.
Assuming falchions --
11 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 2.4 marines, which with force swords is also 2.4 primaris (force weapons matter)
4.9 IG 3.7 wounds to terminators so almost 2 (again - force weapons matter)
OK, I'm probably going to go on lurk mode for this thread for now, unless a question is directed at me.
GKs are still probably not great, but they did get what GW stated...significant points drops. That should not be denied. Maybe someone will go back and re-look at their army and make modifications, maybe not. Not my problem. I still have a few GK units in boxes I acquired from a buddy. I'll get round to them, they are just far down the line of my current projects.
Good luck gentlemen (and thanks for keeping the discussion civil, that's a nice change here on dakka)
bullyboy wrote: Really? my Deathwatch list has 2 of them...no Bobby G. I'm also considering adding a 3rd, now they are 25pts cheaper than before. I'm really liking the ven dread now.
Your Chapter Tactic isn't all that bad actually, especially since the cost to cast Smite is always the same (unlike other armies). Knocking mortal wounds is crazy, no matter how few you get. 33% of the time, a normal smite will do the same damage (btw, GK Libbys should get normal Smite, that IS silly). If the complaint is that it does't do anything vs screens and chaff, well, neither does anyone's smite. Luckily you have stormbolters for that.
If you are plinking off 2, 3 or even 4 mortal wounds of something that you're now going to hit with your heavy hitters, that can make the difference between a dead model, and one left on 1 or 2 wounds.
edit: Like all marine lists, it's probably better to bulk out the army with some cheap chaff. Call them inquisitorial troops or whatever. I held off for my Deathwatch because I wanted to see how GW addressed soup. Well, I guess they didn't so now I'm going to hop on the Guard assist wagon.
I did not say that they are bad in grey knights, I said they are better in other space marine lists. In fact, they are probably much better in deathwatch.
Our army will maybe be getting an extra 7 mortal wounds a turn from smites. That is not going to turn things around. Our chapter tactic isn't bad. I never said it was.
I shouldn't be doing math this late, but thank you for catching that. Still, those numbers arent super impressive.
Go you covered - it's early here and I had my coffee!
I think reference numbers are needed though -
Tac marines melee out 0.7 marines and shoot 1.1 for 65 points.
That means strikes kill more than three times as much for less than twice the cost in melee. They shoot twice as much for less than twice the cost as well.
Tac marines melee out 1.8 IG and shoot 3.
Again strikes do considerably more than their cost increase in melee and shooting is the same efficiency as above, because we're just doubling shots.
The trade off, of course is those marines can get more wounds in. A block of 10 tacs would shoot slightly less efficiently and be more durable, but still be much worse in melee. And I think that's what people notice most - the bane of elites.
I shouldn't be doing math this late, but thank you for catching that. Still, those numbers arent super impressive.
Go you covered - it's early here and I had my coffee!
I think reference numbers are needed though -
Tac marines melee out 0.7 marines and shoot 1.1 for 65 points.
That means strikes kill more than three times as much for less than twice the cost in melee. They shoot twice as much for less than twice the cost as well.
Tac marines melee out 1.8 IG and shoot 3.
Again strikes do considerably more than their cost increase in melee and shooting is the same efficiency as above, because we're just doubling shots.
The trade off, of course is those marines can get more wounds in. A block of 10 tacs would shoot slightly less efficiently and be more durable, but still be much worse in melee. And I think that's what people notice most - the bane of elites.
The real problem is when we look at things like guardsmen or scions or fire warriors and their shooting vs grey knights. Of course strikes will do well against marines, but throw them at other targets, and you see the problems in damage output vs point return.
Yea that's the elite problem and why people view rubrics very highly, because they can take that sort of fire really well.
GK have to stand off until they're in place to drop a ton of models all at once. Their ability to clear models that threaten them is quite good, but if they flub that it could be troublesome.
I still have hopes that GW has more in store for GK in the FAQs to come out with CA...more lore access, cheaper stratagems, full smite for characters would be nice.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea that's the elite problem and why people view rubrics very highly, because they can take that sort of fire really well.
GK have to stand off until they're in place to drop a ton of models all at once. Their ability to clear models that threaten them is quite good, but if they flub that it could be troublesome.
I still have hopes that GW has more in store for GK in the FAQs to come out with CA...more lore access, cheaper stratagems, full smite for characters would be nice.
You have far more faith in GW than I do. This coupled with no GK primarus leads me to believe GKs will be squated as a playable army in an edition or two.
So is CA 2018 standalone or do you need CA 2017 as well to use it?
All changes in 2017 is also in 2018, you just wont have the missions from 2017 one, also IDK if custom land raiders are in 2018 one as well.
What about FAQ changes, are they included too?
Anyone? I'm wondering if buying the latest CA gives me everything I need since the BRB and codex were released without having to cross-reference older CAs and FAQs...
Based on the leaked photos I've seen it looks like all the cost adjustments that differ from the codex are listed. So you should be OK with just the CA 18 for point costs.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea that's the elite problem and why people view rubrics very highly, because they can take that sort of fire really well.
GK have to stand off until they're in place to drop a ton of models all at once. Their ability to clear models that threaten them is quite good, but if they flub that it could be troublesome.
I still have hopes that GW has more in store for GK in the FAQs to come out with CA...more lore access, cheaper stratagems, full smite for characters would be nice.
You have far more faith in GW than I do. This coupled with no GK primarus leads me to believe GKs will be squated as a playable army in an edition or two.
I think the gap on Primaris is GK don't go into battle without storm bolters and force weapons. Until GW are ready to release Primaris with those options GK won't have them.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea that's the elite problem and why people view rubrics very highly, because they can take that sort of fire really well.
GK have to stand off until they're in place to drop a ton of models all at once. Their ability to clear models that threaten them is quite good, but if they flub that it could be troublesome.
I still have hopes that GW has more in store for GK in the FAQs to come out with CA...more lore access, cheaper stratagems, full smite for characters would be nice.
You have far more faith in GW than I do. This coupled with no GK primarus leads me to believe GKs will be squated as a playable army in an edition or two.
I think the gap on Primaris is GK don't go into battle without storm bolters and force weapons. Until GW are ready to release Primaris with those options GK won't have them.
GW said at the weekender no Primaris for GK. Not no plans, just no.
Daedalus81 wrote: A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.
This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.
The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.
Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.
I run an air wing detachment with 2 storm raven and I've tried the same tactics that you are describing several times and I found that is not as powerful to worth those 723, even 577 points. imao the purifiers are totally broken as a unit because:
1) The psychic phase happens before the charge phase AND the shooting phase
2) You disembark before to move the storm raven
3) The smite automatically targets the closest enemy unit
To smite is not as flexible as shooting or charging. As far is not a character you can choose who you shoot. In the other hand when charging you can pull smart movements + pile in + consolidate that will let you reach to the threat that you want to neutralize. Smite don't have either of this two. You just move and smite to the closest enemy unit and this is all. Therefore to smite D6 getting out from a transport it's much much more difficult that to shoot or charge, to the point that it's almost worthless.
In practice what will happen is:
GK turn 1 move the storm raven to be close the thread that is need it to be smite out.
Other turn 1, move the thread away and / or place a screen unit
GK turn 2, disembark, you have the screen in front of you, you cannot do anything but to smite the chaff or be kited by the threat
Others turn 2, shoot the purifiers and remove them without no effort
Sometimes you will be able to succeed then what is also likely to happen is:
GK turn 2, disembark, move at 3-6 inches away from the threat and cast smite and fail or get a peril or get denied
also
GK turn 2, disembark, move at 3-6 inches away from the threat and cast smite then roll 1D6 damage and roll 1
or also
GK turn 2, disembark, move at 3-6 inches away from the threat and cast smite then roll 1D6 damage and roll 6 and strip 6 wounds from the castellan who will smash you up next turn with this 22 remaining wounds meanwhile is laughing on your damage output after so much effort and investment to pull just 6 wounds.
People use to think that this D6 smite is really strong, but is not. Like the flamers is highly unreliable and is not an auto D6 damage. You need to cast it and not been denied and after this you have 50% to do only 1-3 MW. An to pull this you need: to waste points in a sub-optimal storm raven, put there 2 units and a character that they won't be able to score objectives or give support to the army. Cross fingers that the storm raven don't get blow up at turn 1 and you don't get stuck in the middle of no where with slow moving models. Are all of this worth 577 points? How many leman rus can you bring with 577 points? how many riptides? how many IK? how many hell blasters? How many daemon princes? Because we are talking about death star role.
I think that purifiers would be more useful if either:
1) They D6 mortal wounds happens at the beginning of the combat phase
2) The smite would be 6 inches so you smite at 12 inches with brother captain, so you can spend 1CP to deep strike them, potentially along with the banner.
3) Their smite range stay the same in terms of when it happens and in range but where something crazy like flat 10 damage or something that even an IK would be afraid of, so at least, even if it's unlikely or really difficult to pull it, there would be the psychological factor to know that the purifiers have potential to alpha strike them.
4) The purifiers would be allowed to disembark AFTER that the storm raven have moved
Otherwise imao the 3" smite it means nothing. As they got a rule that says: purifiers cannot smite
I shouldn't be doing math this late, but thank you for catching that. Still, those numbers arent super impressive.
Go you covered - it's early here and I had my coffee!
I think reference numbers are needed though -
Tac marines melee out 0.7 marines and shoot 1.1 for 65 points.
That means strikes kill more than three times as much for less than twice the cost in melee. They shoot twice as much for less than twice the cost as well.
Tac marines melee out 1.8 IG and shoot 3.
Again strikes do considerably more than their cost increase in melee and shooting is the same efficiency as above, because we're just doubling shots.
The trade off, of course is those marines can get more wounds in. A block of 10 tacs would shoot slightly less efficiently and be more durable, but still be much worse in melee. And I think that's what people notice most - the bane of elites.
If I could take Strike Squads in any other Marine army I would in a heartbeat.
Daedalus81 wrote: A cheap Stormraven with the very respectable Twin Heavy Plasma Cannon is 253 points down from 289.
5 Purifiers went from 140 to 105 - take two of those.
Brother Captain w/ Psilencer went from 154 to 114.
This setup was previously 723 points, but is now 577 and can drop two D6 smites in 6" as well as plenty of anti-horde shooting.
The tech marine went from 122 to 71.
A ven dread with HPC, ML, and SB went from 167 to 122.
Two of those ven dreads supported by a techmarine is no joke especially when you can hide a wounded one and still shooting while he gets healed.
I run an air wing detachment with 2 storm raven and I've tried the same tactics that you are describing several times and I found that is not as powerful to worth those 723, even 577 points. imao the purifiers are totally broken as a unit because:
1) The psychic phase happens before the charge phase AND the shooting phase
2) You disembark before to move the storm raven
3) The smite automatically targets the closest enemy unit
To smite is not as flexible as shooting or charging. As far is not a character you can choose who you shoot. In the other hand when charging you can pull smart movements + pile in + consolidate that will let you reach to the threat that you want to neutralize. Smite don't have either of this two. You just move and smite to the closest enemy unit and this is all. Therefore to smite D6 getting out from a transport it's much much more difficult that to shoot or charge, to the point that it's almost worthless.
In practice what will happen is:
GK turn 1 move the storm raven to be close the thread that is need it to be smite out.
Other turn 1, move the thread away and / or place a screen unit
GK turn 2, disembark, you have the screen in front of you, you cannot do anything but to smite the chaff or be kited by the threat
Others turn 2, shoot the purifiers and remove them without no effort
Sometimes you will be able to succeed then what is also likely to happen is:
GK turn 2, disembark, move at 3-6 inches away from the threat and cast smite and fail or get a peril or get denied
also
GK turn 2, disembark, move at 3-6 inches away from the threat and cast smite then roll 1D6 damage and roll 1
or also
GK turn 2, disembark, move at 3-6 inches away from the threat and cast smite then roll 1D6 damage and roll 6 and strip 6 wounds from the castellan who will smash you up next turn with this 22 remaining wounds meanwhile is laughing on your damage output after so much effort and investment to pull just 6 wounds.
People use to think that this D6 smite is really strong, but is not. Like the flamers is highly unreliable and is not an auto D6 damage. You need to cast it and not been denied and after this you have 50% to do only 1-3 MW. An to pull this you need: to waste points in a sub-optimal storm raven, put there 2 units and a character that they won't be able to score objectives or give support to the army. Cross fingers that the storm raven don't get blow up at turn 1 and you don't get stuck in the middle of no where with slow moving models. Are all of this worth 577 points? How many leman rus can you bring with 577 points? how many riptides? how many IK? how many hell blasters? How many daemon princes? Because we are talking about death star role.
I think that purifiers would be more useful if either:
1) They D6 mortal wounds happens at the beginning of the combat phase
2) The smite would be 6 inches so you smite at 12 inches with brother captain, so you can spend 1CP to deep strike them, potentially along with the banner.
3) Their smite range stay the same in terms of when it happens and in range but where something crazy like flat 10 damage or something that even an IK would be afraid of, so at least, even if it's unlikely or really difficult to pull it, there would be the psychological factor to know that the purifiers have potential to alpha strike them.
4) The purifiers would be allowed to disembark AFTER that the storm raven have moved
Otherwise imao the 3" smite it means nothing. As they got a rule that says: purifiers cannot smite
Honestly I'm still pissy they lost their second attack. For, like, no good reason. At least you could make the excuse the old power was a Nova afterwards.
GW said at the weekender no Primaris for GK. Not no plans, just no.
Yea I'm still not convinced it means squatting GK, but more that old marines are staying around longer than we might expect.
That and primaris for GK doesn't really help them since you're just making them even more expensive. And unless they get some twin storm bolter they'd be less efficient, too.
Jaxler wrote: I've noticed that an apparent split is happening. People who don't play grey knights are claiming that people need to wait, and it's not that bad, grey knight players are thinking their army sucks still. I'd like to gently and slowly explain why grey knights suck, and why they still suck. I assumed I didn't need to break this down, but I will do so easily so even people with no understanding of grey knights can see the problem.
Here are key concepts and things required to understand grey knight's problems, that are not instantly apparent.
Grey knights pay for things they cannot use effectively. Each model has a force weapon built into the cost. All our infantry that aren't characters or paladins have 1 attack base or 2 in the case of terminators. You are paying out the nose for a weapon you can barely use. Everyone is a wizard! we can only use 6 spells (Really 4, but that's up next). Deep strike got nerfed, so a lot of times you'll be paying for deep striking units that can't deep strike, or have to wait until turn 2. So, grey knights are really just deep striking marines with storm bolters, that pay for gadgets they can't use. Purgation squads are paying for close weapons that are built into their cost that they trade away for heavy weapons. In fact, all our heavy weapons on power armored guys force us to give up the force weapon that we paid for already, and then make us pay for the heavy weapon.
Grey knights are not good at spells. Look at their spells. Vortex of doom is a horrible spell. It fails to go off 40% of the time, it only targets 1 model, so the AOE is rarely useful, and can hurt your own men. Purge soul is a worse smite. Oh boy, we've 4 spells then! Eh. Gate is great, but its use is kind of miffed by the fact that everything already has deep strike, or sucks, or doesn't need deep strike. Sanctuary is an amazing spell. Astral aim is a good spell, but is held back. It's really only good on dreadnaughts, so the one dread you run to abuse this spell is neat, but a dread out of LOS that can shoot you isn't going to carry the game. Anyone else is going to be too close for LOS to really matter or is going to be using gate/sanctuary. You could put it on purgation squads, but purgation squads are just worse strike squads. Hammerhand has the same problems as astral aim, what where it's held back by units wanting a better spell. Remember, we can only know one of these spells on a unit. Also, lets say you've two terminator squads looking to charge. One has hammerhand on it. They both have a 55% chance to make that 9 inch charge. Our smite is trash at 1 wound 12 inches.
Now, lets get to the other problem we have. Every power armored unit, save interceptors, are worse strike squads. Purifiers can't deep strike, and have a worthless spell, so they're worse than strikes and interceptors. Purgators can't deep strike, and all their weapon are worse than storm bolters, save psillencers, but psilencers are only better than storm bolters are select targets. Interceptors are just strike squads that can bounce up the board instead of deep strike.
Are heavy weapons are horrible. Psycannons are worse auto cannons. They've less range, same damage output. They're bad. Incinerators are useless on an army that comes from deep strike. flamers have problems this edition. If your grey knight army is getting charged, you've probably lost already. They are too expensive for the points, and there is no good way for the army to actually use the weapon. Psilencers are bad, but storm bolters are just as good and cheaper 7/10 times.
Deep strike has been nerfed. the army needs deep strike to actually get across the board. almost all our shooting is 24 inch range, so in order to do anything turn one, we need to move. With deep strike being changed, we cannot do much if anything turn one.
Grey knights get diminishing returns. the first two dreadknights grand masters with 3++ and one moving in turn one and rerolling its charge with another on the way is scary. You can only get 2 grandmasters to a 3++. The next grand master is a bad investment unless one of them dies. The 4rth is right out bad. We've only 6(4) spells, so every unit that's a caster after the 6th is paying for something it cannot use.
Double swords! double swords double the attacks of strike squads (and all power armored units). They only make terminators gain 50% more damage. Because of this, an equivalent amount of strike squads always does more damage than any terminator unit (including paladins). Also, double swords are our best weapon vs almost all targets, and the price of them is built into the model, unlike hammers. This problem also applies to all the banner boys with their +1.
I will now explain why most the point changes are not helpful due to the above problems
Apothecary 25 point drop. This is a good change, the problem is, you're not going to run many of these. Another problem is that they're not going to be healing many units that need it. Paladins and Terminators are still bad. He is still a slow-moving terminator.
Brother captain 40 point drop. Just get draigo or a grand master dreadknight.
Brotherhood anchient 38 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Chaplain 39 point drop. It is a worse grand master dreadknight. It has a problem keeping up with friends in combat as well.
Dreadnaught 22 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Mutliples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first. The first is a worse venerable.
Grand master 30 points drop. Worse grand master dreadknight.
Grand master Dread Knight. 20 point drop. You're bringing this and draigo as your HQ choices and only these. Everything else is worse. You can try to argue reasons why other options are nicer, but 3++ is too nice for me to listen to you.
Interceptor Squads 2 point drop. they are worse strike squads but cost more. They can jump up turn one, this is their selling point. You have to bring these pretty much, and they are bad. The price drop helps, but it is too little. they are worse Strike squads, and strike squads cost too much.
Land Raiders, multiple flavors of points drops. Land raiders still have their old problems. They are squishy for points, have less fire output than a single leman russ, and a knight is more useful. Terminators don't need one for transportation. Terminators are bad. There is nothing to put in them. The points changes don't make them any less unnecessary.
Librarian/voldus. The point changes are irrelevant. Look, you can only cast 6 spells. Two of them are useless. These guys get bad smites. Why would you let one caster steal the spells from the rest of your army? You can use those spells just fine without them. They are actually hurting your army by being brought. They are only worth their stats and nothing else, their rules are useless tax.
Paladin Ancient. 42 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also, they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Paladin squad. 6 point drop. They are worse custodians. Just use custodians. Their spells don't matter, because custodians get a 4+ and access to storm shields, so sanctuary is meh. Hammerhand wouldn't be needed if they had Custodian grade weapons. Our heavy weapons such, so that's not a factor. Custodians get pretty much +1 to every stat compared to these guys for a small price hike. Custodians are bad, and paladins are worse custodians. The price change doesn't fix this. For the price of a full unit of custodians, you could get a lot of strike squads with more shooting power and better damage output. They're a worse strike squad, and strike squads are overpriced.
Purifiers. 7 point drop. This doesn't matter. they're still not cheaper than strike squads, which are better.
Razorbacks got their price changed, but are still 5 points more than they were in the codex. Razorbacks are still nerfed for grey knights. We cannot effectively reroll wounds in shooting. Razorbacks aren't useful for transporting our boys due to Deep strike or shunt or gate being used to move our units. We cannot make a gunline for them effectively, because our tax troops cost too much. Our only good HQs will be deep striking in, thus, they cannot buff these backfield shooters. Also, if you did do a parking lot, you'd be worse marines because we lack as many tools for a good parking lot.
Servitors. 3 points more expensive. They're just bad and marines can use them better.
Stormraven. Still 20 points more expensive than it was in codex. It is still a good unit. It's still better in normal marines. We do not need it to transport things. One could argue that it is a worse grand master dreadknight. I certainly would.
Tech marine. 36 point drop. It doesn't suck. You can't spam them. You might bring one or two. It doesn't fix the army. This is a nice change, however. Keep in mind, he can't keep up with the grandmasters, so the only vehicle worth bringing in the army he doesn't synergize with.
Terminators. 7 point drop. Oh boy, here we are. They're still bad. They are still almost double a strike squad member. Strike squad members have more shooting and don't get wrecked by multi damage. Strike squads are overpriced still. They also fill out troop tax for less. for the cost of 1 unit of terminators, you could have 2 strike squads filling out 2 troop requirements, and also, because of squad leaders, you'd be up 1 attack. Here is the big kicker though: Double swords double the attacks on strike squads, while it makes terminators go up by only 50% effectiveness. Double swords are the best melee weapon we have vs all almost all targets. 10 strike squad dudes with double swords is 20 str 4 ap -2 d3 dmg. With terminators, it's only 15.
Venerable dreadnaught. 25 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Multiples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first.
Brother captain stern. 52 point drop. He still has bad rules and is a worse brother captain. He also takes up a slot that could house a grandmaster dreadknight.
Castellan Crowe. 52 point drop. He is useless. He does nothing. Do not pay for him.
Draigo. 60 point drop. He's pretty good. Especially if he's making those two Grandmaster Dreadknights reroll everything to hit. He also is good in close combat. He has a 3++! The point changes make him viable! yay! Give GW a big hand for making a bad grey knight unit good. This is the first proof that GW can actually do it.
Wargear changes. I will be ignoring the space marine only ones because that doesn't help most of our units but does buff things that are worse grand master dreadknights.
Heavy incinerator 21 point drop. It might be worth taking now! Good to see the grand master dreadknight is worth it!
Heavy psycannon. 6 point drop. buff the grand master's baby walker. He needs it.
Incinerator, 5 points for infantry, 7 points down for terminators. This weapon sucks because it will never be used in the game. It's a wasted 7/5 points still when a storm bolter only costs 2 and can be used after deep strike. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Psilencer terminator, 2 points drops. The psilencer is better because it has more str 4 shots than a storm bolter per points (sometimes) and more damage. On a terminator, it is 8 points instead of 4. It is now(or rather still) a worse storm bolter.
Psycannon 3 points drop, 9 on terminators. They're still a worse auto cannon. It might be worth it to run them now on purgation squads. This is nice, this is the only change that changes how grey knights play in a healthy way. It is not, however, enough to save the army. Purgation squads still can't hit your army in deployment because the range on these things is only 24. you might still see these sprinkled in strike squads, but eh... we'll see. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Closing reasons why the above is sound reasoning. This also is the TLDR
As you saw above, I keep referencing the grand master Dreadknight. It is a good unit. It is better than all of our HQs, save Draigo. You will always run them. They are so good, they force everything else in the HQ slot to compete with them, and they lose. This unit is so powerful it dominates the codex, and forces everything else to bow before it. You will only have less than 7 HQ slots, and these guys and Draigo are needed in order to make your army pretend to work. They also make almost all vehicles seem lackluster compared to them. Boom, half the units are just worse Grandmaster dreadknights.
Strike teams also have the same problem. All non characters or vehicles units are worse strike squads. Strike squads also are overpriced. They needed a price drop too. So everything else by extension is still grossly over priced because they're a worse version of a bad unit.
Essentially, all the price drops were on things that are either outclassed, upgrades on things not viable, or had such drastic rules problems that they would be useless unless they were game-breakingly cheap. The few things that did get helped, either made the army more reliant on its crutch unit, or were on characters that aren't spammed, and thus don't really give us too many extra points extra. This is how you make so many price drops pointless. You buff things that cannot be taken, and everything else you buff doesn't get better than the units already dominating the codex (save grand master dreadknights).
Other armies got their list of viable units blown up and helped. I am having a hell of a time making my space marine army better and thinking up fun things to do with the new points drops. My tau feel a lot better with the changes, and I can finally use a lot of my older models. My mobile guard/scions list is now a lot more viable. My grey knights are now only useful as 2 dreadknights GMs and draigo for my guard because every dreadknight after the 2nd gives diminishing returns, and every unit after the 4th gives diminishing returns, and every HQ is bad compared to the stats per point on a baby carrier grandmaster, and all our infantry suck.
Pack up people, we are done here, this post right here is all that needs to be said. It should be used to drown GW's customer support with emails that have this copy pasted in, then maybe, just maybe, GW might actually fix the fundamental flaws that make the entire GK Codex unplayable outside of the 1-2 overpowered cheese units (GMNDK and Draigo) that struggle to keep the rest of the army afloat and barely manage keep it from drowning completely. GK need a fundamental overhaul. Changes like a 4-5 point discount on Strike teams and the cost of the built-in Nemesis weapon being deducted from the special weapons that replace them would be a needed starting point.
lolman1c wrote: They can play with the points all the want but it's fundamentally a data sheet problem... it's why factions like Tyranids do so well and need little balance. They're data sheets are (for the most part) all awesome and, thus, can have points adjustments when things are needed with no problem...
I agree. Some units cant be fixed with reasonable point adjustments. Mutilators are one such unit. No point drop is going to make up for MV 4. Units still need data sheet rebalancing. But at this point, if the leaks are true, I have zero faith GW can balance this game. Flamers needed to go down more and plasma should not have had a price cut. They simply either have a agenda for sales and are buffing or maintaining those units that are central to that agenda OR they just have no business being in game design. Most players know the glaring issues with 8th and no point changes are going to fix that.
Spoletta wrote: The funny thing is that what you get out of this thread is:
"Nerf GMDK and the faction is fine".
Delete the GMDK and the sand castle falls.
Imagine if you have 1 good unit that wasn't a character, and suddenly it got nerfed?
I'm trying, but my only good unit IS a character and has been nerfed three times now. What's it like to have a good unit?
What army are you playing? I'll explain why it does better than grey knights, unless you play inqusition or corsairs
Blood angels. With idea that tacticals with missile launcher and flamers should be core of army and able to deal with everything.
Does he not know that his army now can do stupid stuff like storm shield vanguards just being better crusaders? Or that his army has a plethora of ranged options, the forgeworld dreadnaught that barfs auto cannon shots at bs2, or the fact his army also can just spam plasma dudes much easier now?
Dude, I play SM, and I know how BA work, they're not in nearly as bad a place as GKs. Like, seriously, every option we have that works currently is a GMDK, a worse vanguard vet/sternguard vet, and or a space marine option that's better in an army with lieutenants. You guys also get scouts for cheap troop tax, which grey knights don't get the luxury.
Spoletta wrote: The funny thing is that what you get out of this thread is:
"Nerf GMDK and the faction is fine".
Delete the GMDK and the sand castle falls.
Imagine if you have 1 good unit that wasn't a character, and suddenly it got nerfed?
I'm trying, but my only good unit IS a character and has been nerfed three times now. What's it like to have a good unit?
What army are you playing? I'll explain why it does better than grey knights, unless you play inqusition or corsairs
Blood angels. With idea that tacticals with missile launcher and flamers should be core of army and able to deal with everything.
Wrong poster.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can't judge CA quite yet, so maybe that helps. But right now, it's codex: smash capt, who's been tripled nerfed. Deservedly so, I suppose, but the rest of the codex is pretty ghastly.
lolman1c wrote: They can play with the points all the want but it's fundamentally a data sheet problem... it's why factions like Tyranids do so well and need little balance. They're data sheets are (for the most part) all awesome and, thus, can have points adjustments when things are needed with no problem...
I agree. Some units cant be fixed with reasonable point adjustments. Mutilators are one such unit. No point drop is going to make up for MV 4. Units still need data sheet rebalancing. But at this point, if the leaks are true, I have zero faith GW can balance this game. Flamers needed to go down more and plasma should not have had a price cut. They simply either have a agenda for sales and are buffing or maintaining those units that are central to that agenda OR they just have no business being in game design. Most players know the glaring issues with 8th and no point changes are going to fix that.
Plasma was almost nowhere to be seen on tables. Promoting it will have an effect on the meta.
Mutilators are the kind of unit that needs a support character or even a formation, which is a possibility now.
TL las and missile dreads got a nice cutt for all marine armies. Like...no clue why anyone would EVER consider a preditor now. Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
Xenomancers wrote: TL las and missile dreads got a nice cutt for all marine armies. Like...no clue why anyone would EVER consider a preditor now. Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I mean it's 10 points less for quad laspred. And you can still take HBs. It just makes twin las a little more competitive with the pred AC and helps units with fixed TLC.
Xenomancers wrote: Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I think the reasoning for this (and why almost all "twin" weapons are cheaper than 2 single weapons) is because 2 single weapons can fire at 2 separate targets. Twin weapons must fire at the same target, as they are 1 weapon.
I applaud GW for realizing this, even if single Lascannons are still a bit much. 20ppm seems better, with TwinLas being about 35ppm. But at any rate, we a far closer to decent point values for Marine wargear.
Still very bitter that Melta is more expensive than Plasma, but that's not for this thread.
Grey Knights getting hefty points drops is nice....except so did Guard and DE did not get the increases they needed on their weapons. So GKs are between the same and worse overall.
GKs will still rely heavily on Guard allies, maybe even more so since they got cheaper. And DE will still remove several GK units per turn.
So who really is the "big winner" for CA? I'd say it's a tie between Guard and DE, but not even close to GKs
Xenomancers wrote: TL las and missile dreads got a nice cutt for all marine armies. Like...no clue why anyone would EVER consider a preditor now. Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I mean it's 10 points less for quad laspred. And you can still take HBs. It just makes twin las a little more competitive with the pred AC and helps units with fixed TLC.
HB on a pred is a complete waste. Preds for some reason pay more point for their hull than other units with the exact same profile. If that wasn't the case you could just throw on some sponson HB NP. Just look and see what those HB cost you compared to a Razorback with twin las.
GK, Necrons and Admech did win this CA, but they won the battle, not the war. Are they better now? Yes, that is mathematically objective, they cost less points while other factions didn't get any significant buff (only buffs related to internal balance...and tank commanders).
This means that i can take a full GK list and hope to win a GT? Not in the least.
Xenomancers wrote: Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I think the reasoning for this (and why almost all "twin" weapons are cheaper than 2 single weapons) is because 2 single weapons can fire at 2 separate targets. Twin weapons must fire at the same target, as they are 1 weapon.
I applaud GW for realizing this, even if single Lascannons are still a bit much. 20ppm seems better, with TwinLas being about 35ppm. But at any rate, we a far closer to decent point values for Marine wargear.
Still very bitter that Melta is more expensive than Plasma, but that's not for this thread.
Grey Knights getting hefty points drops is nice....except so did Guard and DE did not get the increases they needed on their weapons. So GKs are between the same and worse overall.
GKs will still rely heavily on Guard allies, maybe even more so since they got cheaper. And DE will still remove several GK units per turn.
So who really is the "big winner" for CA? I'd say it's a tie between Guard and DE, but not even close to GKs
-
Yeah this has been pretty consistent for twin link weapons but no where has it been so absurd as a 5 point per weapon discrepancy. Plus like you said - LC should be 20 points anyways it basically splits efficiency with a BL against a host of popular targets - should be same price. Or maybe a LC could be 21 or 22 because of the range but really -
Also - anyone notice the 40 point lastalon not getting a point drop? Same cost as twin las - it's literally 2 lascannons with half the range. This was the first thing that popped into my head with the TLLC drop - "oh tastalons must also be going down then" NOPE. Head scratcher.
Xenomancers wrote: TL las and missile dreads got a nice cutt for all marine armies. Like...no clue why anyone would EVER consider a preditor now. Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I mean it's 10 points less for quad laspred. And you can still take HBs. It just makes twin las a little more competitive with the pred AC and helps units with fixed TLC.
HB on a pred is a complete waste. Preds for some reason pay more point for their hull than other units with the exact same profile. If that wasn't the case you could just throw on some sponson HB NP. Just look and see what those HB cost you compared to a Razorback with twin las.
Not quite sure what you're saying there, but with split fire HB sponsons are never a waste if you need anti-infantry.
Xenomancers wrote: TL las and missile dreads got a nice cutt for all marine armies. Like...no clue why anyone would EVER consider a preditor now. Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I mean it's 10 points less for quad laspred. And you can still take HBs. It just makes twin las a little more competitive with the pred AC and helps units with fixed TLC.
HB on a pred is a complete waste. Preds for some reason pay more point for their hull than other units with the exact same profile. If that wasn't the case you could just throw on some sponson HB NP. Just look and see what those HB cost you compared to a Razorback with twin las.
Not quite sure what you're saying there, but with split fire HB sponsons are never a waste if you need anti-infantry.
Base cost of a pred is 90
Base cost of razorback is 70. You are paying 20 points just for the ability to carry 2 more heavy weapons and +1 wound. It makes no sense to do that ever really - it's part of the reason preds suck. It really makes no sense to take HB's with that though.
Base cost of a pred is 90
Base cost of razorback is 70. You are paying 20 points just for the ability to carry 2 more heavy weapons and +1 wound. It makes no sense to do that ever really - it's part of the reason preds suck. It really makes no sense to take HB's with that though.
Gotcha - I don't have razorbacks available so I don't think about them, but paying 20 to carry two more weapons can be worth it if your only other option is to pay 26 points for 2 marines to carry them.
Grey Knights getting hefty points drops is nice....except so did Guard and DE did not get the increases they needed on their weapons. So GKs are between the same and worse overall.
GKs will still rely heavily on Guard allies, maybe even more so since they got cheaper. And DE will still remove several GK units per turn.
So who really is the "big winner" for CA? I'd say it's a tie between Guard and DE, but not even close to GKs
But Guard is better without GK.
So no need for a Guard player to field a detachment of GK, maybe the other way around.
Grey Knights getting hefty points drops is nice....except so did Guard and DE did not get the increases they needed on their weapons. So GKs are between the same and worse overall.
GKs will still rely heavily on Guard allies, maybe even more so since they got cheaper. And DE will still remove several GK units per turn.
So who really is the "big winner" for CA? I'd say it's a tie between Guard and DE, but not even close to GKs
But Guard is better without GK.
So no need for a Guard player to field a detachment of GK, maybe the other way around.
For all the crap that people talk about ITC, the reason you see GK on the table is because you can still win best in faction playing a garbage army. Take away ITC and there would probably not be any Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Necrons, in tournaments, period.
Xenomancers wrote: Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I think the reasoning for this (and why almost all "twin" weapons are cheaper than 2 single weapons) is because 2 single weapons can fire at 2 separate targets. Twin weapons must fire at the same target, as they are 1 weapon.
I applaud GW for realizing this, even if single Lascannons are still a bit much. 20ppm seems better, with TwinLas being about 35ppm. But at any rate, we a far closer to decent point values for Marine wargear.
Still very bitter that Melta is more expensive than Plasma, but that's not for this thread.
Grey Knights getting hefty points drops is nice....except so did Guard and DE did not get the increases they needed on their weapons. So GKs are between the same and worse overall.
GKs will still rely heavily on Guard allies, maybe even more so since they got cheaper. And DE will still remove several GK units per turn.
So who really is the "big winner" for CA? I'd say it's a tie between Guard and DE, but not even close to GKs
-
Yeah this has been pretty consistent for twin link weapons but no where has it been so absurd as a 5 point per weapon discrepancy. Plus like you said - LC should be 20 points anyways it basically splits efficiency with a BL against a host of popular targets - should be same price. Or maybe a LC could be 21 or 22 because of the range but really -
Also - anyone notice the 40 point lastalon not getting a point drop? Same cost as twin las - it's literally 2 lascannons with half the range. This was the first thing that popped into my head with the TLLC drop - "oh tastalons must also be going down then" NOPE. Head scratcher.
There's like only one unit that uses the Lastalon. If the platform is cheap enough to accommodate it, it evens out.
That's why the complaints about Hurricane Bolters being too cheap is silly. They come on on how many platforms?
Grey Knights getting hefty points drops is nice....except so did Guard and DE did not get the increases they needed on their weapons. So GKs are between the same and worse overall.
GKs will still rely heavily on Guard allies, maybe even more so since they got cheaper. And DE will still remove several GK units per turn.
So who really is the "big winner" for CA? I'd say it's a tie between Guard and DE, but not even close to GKs
But Guard is better without GK.
So no need for a Guard player to field a detachment of GK, maybe the other way around.
For all the crap that people talk about ITC, the reason you see GK on the table is because you can still win best in faction playing a garbage army. Take away ITC and there would probably not be any Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Necrons, in tournaments, period.
I hope they do get rid of that award. It's so dumb that we see "Hey a GK made it to the top 30!" then we go and open up the list and see it is literally at least 40% IG.
I hope they do get rid of that award. It's so dumb that we see "Hey a GK made it to the top 30!" then we go and open up the list and see it is literally at least 40% IG.
Kind of how I look at Thousand Sons and see that it was just Ahirman, DPs, and some Tzaangors?
Or how those top BA lists a while back were mostly IG?
Or how "Catachans" are backed up by a Castellan?
Or all the DE lists with the requisite Farseer?
Xenomancers wrote: Single lascannons costing 25 is just laughable when you can get 2 for 40.
I think the reasoning for this (and why almost all "twin" weapons are cheaper than 2 single weapons) is because 2 single weapons can fire at 2 separate targets. Twin weapons must fire at the same target, as they are 1 weapon.
I applaud GW for realizing this, even if single Lascannons are still a bit much. 20ppm seems better, with TwinLas being about 35ppm. But at any rate, we a far closer to decent point values for Marine wargear.
Still very bitter that Melta is more expensive than Plasma, but that's not for this thread.
Grey Knights getting hefty points drops is nice....except so did Guard and DE did not get the increases they needed on their weapons. So GKs are between the same and worse overall.
GKs will still rely heavily on Guard allies, maybe even more so since they got cheaper. And DE will still remove several GK units per turn.
So who really is the "big winner" for CA? I'd say it's a tie between Guard and DE, but not even close to GKs
-
Yeah this has been pretty consistent for twin link weapons but no where has it been so absurd as a 5 point per weapon discrepancy. Plus like you said - LC should be 20 points anyways it basically splits efficiency with a BL against a host of popular targets - should be same price. Or maybe a LC could be 21 or 22 because of the range but really -
Also - anyone notice the 40 point lastalon not getting a point drop? Same cost as twin las - it's literally 2 lascannons with half the range. This was the first thing that popped into my head with the TLLC drop - "oh tastalons must also be going down then" NOPE. Head scratcher.
There's like only one unit that uses the Lastalon. If the platform is cheap enough to accommodate it, it evens out.
That's why the complaints about Hurricane Bolters being too cheap is silly. They come on on how many platforms?
Stormhawks and Repulsors can take lastalons in the same build with twinlascannons.... It's also a very strange way of thinking..."it's only bad for this one unit or two units...so who cares?"
I hope they do get rid of that award. It's so dumb that we see "Hey a GK made it to the top 30!" then we go and open up the list and see it is literally at least 40% IG.
Kind of how I look at Thousand Sons and see that it was just Ahirman, DPs, and some Tzaangors?
Or how those top BA lists a while back were mostly IG?
Or how "Catachans" are backed up by a Castellan?
Or all the DE lists with the requisite Farseer?
The key difference here is the GK players know they have .0001% chance of winning at best.
The key difference here is the GK players know they have .0001% chance of winning at best.
Maybe previously. We'll have to wait to see what CA and potential FAQs do.
Their biggest problem might be how compelling their mechanics are over other factions, which relegates them to existing players who....are pretty unwilling to give it a go.
Either way it doesn't change that most armies run soup and it's not some sort of venereal disease to be avoided at all costs.
I hope they do get rid of that award. It's so dumb that we see "Hey a GK made it to the top 30!" then we go and open up the list and see it is literally at least 40% IG.
Kind of how I look at Thousand Sons and see that it was just Ahirman, DPs, and some Tzaangors?
Or how those top BA lists a while back were mostly IG?
Or how "Catachans" are backed up by a Castellan?
Or all the DE lists with the requisite Farseer?
Oh please none of those lists exist because its a weak faction being propped up by another. All of those lists are strong factions backing each other.
The TSons? Congrats you have viable units used as lynchpin units in soups, GK don't have that; in either case you're truly are dumb for saying "I put up with it! You should too!" Na just feth off with that logic. It is almost like you don't pay attention to the countless posts of people complaining about the state of soup or the fact that no one enjoys that their faction is literally being stripped down to one unit a la Smash-captain w/ IG dressing. How about you write an email about it instead of telling everyone to put up with it?
Those DE lists? They have a farseer because they're taking -1 to hit units with the -1 to hit Craftworld to camp objectives, along with the Hemlock fighters (Which are you know, -1 to hit and have the Craftworld trait). Guess what people don't really want anymore.
Congratulations you touched on every issue in the game people want fixed! Sorry I don't think just because some people put up with broken game design, I should put up my broken codex.
GK just cost too much because they have so much POTENTIAL. But none of the potential is defensive, so they just get LOLed off the table.
There's a GK player at FLGS that always crows about how much he's gonna do when he DS, but fails to factor in that removing 40 guardsmen doesn't mean much when there are 80 more waiting with FRFSRF as well as artillery horde.
Oh please none of those lists exist because its a weak faction being propped up by another. All of those lists are strong factions backing each other.
The TSons? Congrats you have viable units used as lynchpin units in soups, GK don't have that; in either case you're truly are dumb for saying "I put up with it! You should too!" Na just feth off with that logic. It is almost like you don't pay attention to the countless posts of people complaining about the state of soup or the fact that no one enjoys that their faction is literally being stripped down to one unit a la Smash-captain w/ IG dressing. How about you write an email about it instead of telling everyone to put up with it?
Those DE lists? They have a farseer because they're taking -1 to hit units with the -1 to hit Craftworld to camp objectives, along with the Hemlock fighters (Which are you know, -1 to hit and have the Craftworld trait). Guess what people don't really want anymore.
Congratulations you touched on every issue in the game people want fixed! Sorry I don't think just because some people put up with broken game design, I should put up my broken codex.
I'm not saying put up with a broken codex. I'm stating the reality of soup and it doesn't matter who writes what to GW - it will never, ever go away (restricted at most).
