quickfuze wrote:

not true it says that they can act normally after disembarking.....by trying to move twice, you are not acting normally, you are trying to special snowflake. You all can do what you want at your FLGS but no major event TO is ever going to let you do this....have fun

I'm just trying to understand why the "count as having moved" by the transport movement is different from the "count as having moved" from the disembark rules.
If just that preclude a unit from moving, then when you disembark from a transport at the beginning of the movement phase you can't move the unit further, since it act normally, and disembarking count it "as having moved"

So in my mind with a normal transport which hasn't moved,

You disembark the model. This model can now act normally. Disembark is not a Move action, it does not use your Move characteristic, it is a seperate action that allows you to disembark the model and place it within 3 inches. You then act normally. If you decide not to Move the model that model is still classed as having moved for rules purposes.

This is backed up by the part in the disembark rule where is states that if the model doesn't move after disembarking it is classed as moving. Why would it need that if disembarking was moving? So if a model disembarks before the transport moves it is not having been classed as moving until after the entirw action is complete.

If the transport moves and then the model disembarks the model is already classed as moving, therefore it cannot be moved a second time.

There is no rule that removes the fact that the model has moved before disembarking, and the fact that the rule states 'Acts normally' means you follow all the normal rules and the unit cannot move a second time.

Dadavester, time to back up and look at the FAQ statement with a critical eye.

Why does this FAQ entry even exist?

You can't disembark from a transport that has moved (ignoring Grav-chute Insertion and other special rules for the moment).

Models in transports can't shoot per the Transport rules. Well, they can if there is some sort of special rule (Open Top, Fire Point, etc.) that allows them too. Do they count as moving in that case?

Oh, that's what this FAQ is about. And in typical GW rules writing fashion, they have failed to write a rule in an explicit manner that avoids conflating one issue with another.

 alextroy wrote:
Dadavester, time to back up and look at the FAQ statement with a critical eye.

Why does this FAQ entry even exist?

You can't disembark from a transport that has moved (ignoring Grav-chute Insertion and other special rules for the moment).

Models in transports can't shoot per the Transport rules. Well, they can if there is some sort of special rule (Open Top, Fire Point, etc.) that allows them too. Do they count as moving in that case?

Oh, that's what this FAQ is about. And in typical GW rules writing fashion, they have failed to write a rule in an explicit manner that avoids conflating one issue with another.

You cannot just ignore rules. Open topped exists and grav chute exists, both are affected by the FAQ. You are assuming one of these rules is affected and not the other with zero input from GW. You could try and argue RaI, but even that isnt clear.

You play RaW as per the BRB and FAQs and still no one can show any rules which say that this interpretation is wrong.

Several people have shown you the Transport rules that explicitly allow you to move after disembarking. It places no limitations on this. Even if your interpretation is correct, that the unit has “moved” because the transport moved, you still have permission to move after disembarking.

 alextroy wrote:
Several people have shown you the Transport rules that explicitly allow you to move after disembarking. It places no limitations on this. Even if your interpretation is correct, that the unit has “moved” because the transport moved, you still have permission to move after disembarking.

But the rules do not give you permission to move, they give you permission "to act normally (move, shoot, charge etc)." And as the unit is classed as moving it cannot move again, as that is not acting normally.

Dadavester wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Several people have shown you the Transport rules that explicitly allow you to move after disembarking. It places no limitations on this. Even if your interpretation is correct, that the unit has “moved” because the transport moved, you still have permission to move after disembarking.

But the rules do not give you permission to move, they give you permission "to act normally (move, shoot, charge etc)." And as the unit is classed as moving it cannot move again, as that is not acting normally.

The unit would also be classed as moving when it disembarks at the beggining of the movement phase from a non moving transport, it is the exact same wording and in both rules it is meant to give the “moved” status not limit further movement. Also if we are going by absolute RAW the faq you keep alluding to of units in moved transports only affects units that are in moved transports, not units that were in them and disembarked.

And if you need further evidence, check out the Emperor's Blade Assault Company detachment from Vigilus Defiant. It's Rapid Redeploy Stratagem allows you to disembark from a transport at the end of the Movement phase (aka after the transport has moved). It specifically forbids the disembarking unit from moving, which would be unnecessary if the unit had already moved.

 alextroy wrote:
And if you need further evidence, check out the Emperor's Blade Assault Company detachment from Vigilus Defiant. It's Rapid Redeploy Stratagem allows you to disembark from a transport at the end of the Movement phase (aka after the transport has moved). It specifically forbids the disembarking unit from moving, which would be unnecessary if the unit had already moved.

Actually that more supporters the other view. In that GW intention is that units may not move after disembarking from a vehicle that already moved. They just cleaned up the writing for people like you..

 quickfuze wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And if you need further evidence, check out the Emperor's Blade Assault Company detachment from Vigilus Defiant. It's Rapid Redeploy Stratagem allows you to disembark from a transport at the end of the Movement phase (aka after the transport has moved). It specifically forbids the disembarking unit from moving, which would be unnecessary if the unit had already moved.

Actually that more supporters the other view. In that GW intention is that units may not move after disembarking from a vehicle that already moved. They just cleaned up the writing for people like you..

Not necessarily. There isn't enough consistency in GW rule wording or errata to draw that sort of inference.

 Stux wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And if you need further evidence, check out the Emperor's Blade Assault Company detachment from Vigilus Defiant. It's Rapid Redeploy Stratagem allows you to disembark from a transport at the end of the Movement phase (aka after the transport has moved). It specifically forbids the disembarking unit from moving, which would be unnecessary if the unit had already moved.

Actually that more supporters the other view. In that GW intention is that units may not move after disembarking from a vehicle that already moved. They just cleaned up the writing for people like you..

Not necessarily. There isn't enough consistency in GW rule wording or errata to draw that sort of inference.

Yes, with Tempestus Drop Force, many are still arguing whether Scion get their doctrine if they have advisors and Auxillia list units in their Militarum Tempestus detachments.

Kaneda88 wrote:

Dadavester wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Several people have shown you the Transport rules that explicitly allow you to move after disembarking. It places no limitations on this. Even if your interpretation is correct, that the unit has “moved” because the transport moved, you still have permission to move after disembarking.

But the rules do not give you permission to move, they give you permission "to act normally (move, shoot, charge etc)." And as the unit is classed as moving it cannot move again, as that is not acting normally.

The unit would also be classed as moving when it disembarks at the beggining of the movement phase from a non moving transport, it is the exact same wording and in both rules it is meant to give the “moved” status not limit further movement. Also if we are going by absolute RAW the faq you keep alluding to of units in moved transports only affects units that are in moved transports, not units that were in them and disembarked.

But the unit has not moved, it has disembarked.

This is an entirely seperate action which gives you 3 inches with which to place units. Once your unit is placed, it then acts normally. The unit has not yet moved (it has disembarked) so can now move. This is supported by the next line of the rule which says that if the unit doesn't move after it has disembarked it is still classed as moving for rules purposes. If disembark was a move action this last bit would not be needed.

I mean. I went to a Tournament today, and moved after dismbarking, and everyone was 100% clear that wast totally okay, from the TO on down.

Maybe we're all just playing the game wrong?

I bet you advanced and fired Assault weapons too!

With how GW works they 100% would have put in an FAQ saying you couldn't move after disembark if you weren't "supposed" to.

Dadavester wrote:
But the unit has not moved, it has disembarked.

From page 183 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).

Your position means that they moved when they disembarked and would move twice if they moved after disembarking.

 Ghaz wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
But the unit has not moved, it has disembarked.

From page 183 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).

Your position means that they moved when they disembarked and would move twice if they moved after disembarking.

The rule says "even if you don’t move disembarking units further", which implies that you can move the unit further, which matches up with the rule saying units can act normally (and move) after disembarking.

 Ghaz wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
But the unit has not moved, it has disembarked.

From page 183 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).

Your position means that they moved when they disembarked and would move twice if they moved after disembarking.

Think about that. Even if “you don’t move units further in you movement phase, they still count as having moved.” That sounds like you can move after you disembark, but if you decide not to, it still counts when the movement phase is over for the next phases, ie shooting heavy weapons.

Note though, if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).

That is what the rule would have to say for the disembarking not to count as the unit's movement. As written in the rulebook it doesn't care if you move after disembarking or not, it would still be the unit's move under the argument being given meaning the unit would be making two moves if they disembarked and then moved.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I bet you advanced and fired Assault weapons too!

With how GW works they 100% would have put in an FAQ saying you couldn't move after disembark if you weren't "supposed" to.

I didn't, but I let my opponents wave serpant do that because I'm a Nice Guy [TM]

 Ghaz wrote:

Note though, if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).

That is what the rule would have to say for the disembarking not to count as the unit's movement. As written in the rulebook it doesn't care if you move after disembarking or not, it would still be the unit's move under the argument being given meaning the unit would be making two moves if they disembarked and then moved.

I wonder why it says "move further" if it can't move according to your logic.

The point of that rule is to have units that disembarked, but chose not to move further, still count as "having moved" later on - eg shooting heavy weapons. That's it.

Now, sure, you can play it as if that wasn't the reason and probably have a good case on it not being allowed at all. But that's about as reasonable as the Pistol or Assault weapons don't work-thing. Or the old act of faith for movement not allowing two moves in the movement phase. Technically maybe correct, but clearly still wrong on any other level.

Dadavester wrote:
So in my mind with a normal transport which hasn't moved,

You disembark the model. This model can now act normally. Disembark is not a Move action, it does not use your Move characteristic, it is a seperate action that allows you to disembark the model and place it within 3 inches. You then act normally. If you decide not to Move the model that model is still classed as having moved for rules purposes.

This is backed up by the part in the disembark rule where is states that if the model doesn't move after disembarking it is classed as moving. Why would it need that if disembarking was moving? So if a model disembarks before the transport moves it is not having been classed as moving until after the entirw action is complete.

If the transport moves and then the model disembarks the model is already classed as moving, therefore it cannot be moved a second time.

There is no rule that removes the fact that the model has moved before disembarking, and the fact that the rule states 'Acts normally' means you follow all the normal rules and the unit cannot move a second time.

I am fairly sure this is the right interpretation.

If you have a special rule that says you can disembark AFTER the transport has moved then you don't get to do a second move. This is the whole reason why disembarkation has been moved to the start of the movement phase in 8th - to prevent "all up in yo face" transport move + passenger move + charge shenanigans. The threat radius for an embarked unit would be way too high.

That's not 'my logic', that's Dadavester's logic.

Plus you're intentionally leaving parts of the rule out. Ypu know, the part where it states "... they still count as having moved for any rules purposes..."

 Ghaz wrote:
T
Plus you're intentionally leaving parts of the rule out. Ypu know, the part where it states "... they still count as having moved for any rules purposes..."

I don't understand what you are saying here at all.

The rule saying "they count as having moved" totally backs up Dadavester's point.

Do you honestly think the Valkyrie is supposed to be the one model in the game for which it's OK for passengers to move again after the transport has moved? Why would that be the case? And if it was the case, do you not think they would have deliberately stated that it breaks the standard rules?

No it doesn't. His point is that it would prevent them from moving after they disembark since they can't move twice and the wording of the actual rule proves that they can.

I mean I am reading the same discussion all over the internet on reddit and stuff and the overriding opinion seems to be that you are right - you can jump out and move.

I am really not sure it's right. If something counts as having moved, how can it move again?

I will ask the question a second time: Do you honestly think the Valkyrie is supposed to be the one model in the game for which it's OK for passengers to move again after the transport has moved? Why would that be the case? And if it was the case, do you not think they would have deliberately stated that it breaks the standard rules?

Considering I have to roll a die for each model. Which has a possibility of losing models.

Unlike getting out after a vehicle explodes in which you choose which models to remove. With grav shute you can lose characters.

So yes. This model is meant to do this

 Silentz wrote:
I mean I am reading the same discussion all over the internet on reddit and stuff and the overriding opinion seems to be that you are right - you can jump out and move.

I am really not sure it's right. If something counts as having moved, how can it move again?

By having a specific rule that makes it a unique case where it's meant to disembark later, despite it being illegal normally.
- If you disembark from a Valkyrie and don't move afterwards, you still count as having moved.
- If you stay inside your transport, and the transport moved, the units inside will be counted as having moved - so that e.g. Heavy weapons fire at -1 toHit (usually).
- If you use Grav Chutes, you get to disembark at any point during the movement of the valkyrie. that's what's changing.

I will ask the question a second time: Do you honestly think the Valkyrie is supposed to be the one model in the game for which it's OK for passengers to move again after the transport has moved? Why would that be the case? And if it was the case, do you not think they would have deliberately stated that it breaks the standard rules?

The valkyrie is the only* unit (that I am aware of) that allows disembarkation during the transport movement. Why would I change the whole disembarkation process for that unit, when it's kinda clear that it is an exception to the norm? You disembark "later", that's literally the point of using grav chutes. It's balanced by having to roll for each model. It's the only transport in the game that kills its passengers during disembarkation, I wouldn't question that either. Nor do I question that the killed models are rolled differently from an emergency disembarkation - as you can't pick and choose which model dies. If you Company Commander decides "that wall over there, let me paint it red", that's that for him - doesn't matter how many veterans also jumped out at the same time.

I know I'm repeating myself, but:
Now, sure, you can play it as if all of that is meaningless and simply stick with the literal wordings, and probably have a good case on it not being allowed at all - meaning you can't move after disembarkation at all. But that's about as reasonable as the Pistol or Assault weapons don't work-thing. Or the old act of faith for movement not allowing two moves in the movement phase. Technically maybe correct, but clearly still wrong on any other level.

* Technically the Vendetta does the same, but it's just an anti-tank Valkyrie, so I'll let that slide ...

An interesting idea. Does the FAQ or BRB say that when you disembark from a vehicle that you stop moving? Is it perhaps one looong move including the disembark action?

 Apple Peel wrote:
An interesting idea. Does the FAQ or BRB say that when you disembark from a vehicle that you stop moving? Is it perhaps one looong move including the disembark action?

It says embarked passengers in a transport count as having moved. The passengers start in the Vakyrie when it starts to move, so therefore they fit the requirements for embarked passengers. Now, when they disembark they count as having moved from that rule. The disembark rules say you can act normally, but you already have the former embarked unit as counting as having moved when embarked. They wouldn't be able to move again. That limitation does not have a qualifier saying they get to move further after disembarking, only that they count as having moved while emarked in a moving transport. Disembarking does not change that condition.

 Apple Peel wrote:
An interesting idea. Does the FAQ or BRB say that when you disembark from a vehicle that you stop moving? Is it perhaps one looong move including the disembark action?

Disembarking and moving are two different actions.

You can disembark, then move the transport, then move the infantry squad that just disembarked, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
An interesting idea. Does the FAQ or BRB say that when you disembark from a vehicle that you stop moving? Is it perhaps one looong move including the disembark action?

It says embarked passengers in a transport count as having moved. The passengers start in the Vakyrie when it starts to move, so therefore they fit the requirements for embarked passengers. Now, when they disembark they count as having moved from that rule. The disembark rules say you can act normally, but you already have the former embarked unit as counting as having moved when embarked. They wouldn't be able to move again. That limitation does not have a qualifier saying they get to move further after disembarking, only that they count as having moved while emarked in a moving transport. Disembarking does not change that condition.

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes

That's from the regular disembark rules. "ignoring whether or not you move, from now on you count as having moved". If "counts as having moved" means you cannot do your normal move, this is true for any transport.

nekooni wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
An interesting idea. Does the FAQ or BRB say that when you disembark from a vehicle that you stop moving? Is it perhaps one looong move including the disembark action?

Disembarking and moving are two different actions.

You can disembark, then move the transport, then move the infantry squad that just disembarked, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
An interesting idea. Does the FAQ or BRB say that when you disembark from a vehicle that you stop moving? Is it perhaps one looong move including the disembark action?

It says embarked passengers in a transport count as having moved. The passengers start in the Vakyrie when it starts to move, so therefore they fit the requirements for embarked passengers. Now, when they disembark they count as having moved from that rule. The disembark rules say you can act normally, but you already have the former embarked unit as counting as having moved when embarked. They wouldn't be able to move again. That limitation does not have a qualifier saying they get to move further after disembarking, only that they count as having moved while emarked in a moving transport. Disembarking does not change that condition.

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes

That's from the regular disembark rules. "ignoring whether or not you move, from now on you count as having moved". If "counts as having moved" means you cannot do your normal move, this is true for any transport.

I agree disembarking and moving are two different things. You get the embarked unit as counting as having moved from the rules for the transport moving, however, not from the disembarking process. When you plop the unit onto the board it counts as having moved because the transport moved and therefore having them count as having moved too; it has nothing at all to do with the disembarking rules. That would mean that it being true for any transport if it's true in this case isn't quite correct. It would be true for any transport that moves before or during passengers disembarking but not for transports in which the passengers disembark before the transport moves.

 doctortom wrote:

I agree disembarking and moving are two different things. You get the embarked unit as counting as having moved from the rules for the transport moving, however, not from the disembarking process. When you plop the unit onto the board it counts as having moved because the transport moved and therefore having them count as having moved too; it has nothing at all to do with the disembarking rules. That would mean that it being true for any transport if it's true in this case isn't quite correct. It would be true for any transport that moves before or during passengers disembarking but not for transports in which the passengers disembark before the transport moves.

This is literally from the disembarking rules.

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes

nekooni wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I agree disembarking and moving are two different things. You get the embarked unit as counting as having moved from the rules for the transport moving, however, not from the disembarking process. When you plop the unit onto the board it counts as having moved because the transport moved and therefore having them count as having moved too; it has nothing at all to do with the disembarking rules. That would mean that it being true for any transport if it's true in this case isn't quite correct. It would be true for any transport that moves before or during passengers disembarking but not for transports in which the passengers disembark before the transport moves.

This is literally from the disembarking rules.

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes

Move "further" - and you're told by the disembarking rules that you can act normally after disembarking. But, you already count as having moved when you hit the board at the point you disembark if you moved in a transport and are no longer embarked due to a special rule. That's a separate prohibition from moving or not moving after normally disembarking from a vehicle that hasn't moved.

 doctortom wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I agree disembarking and moving are two different things. You get the embarked unit as counting as having moved from the rules for the transport moving, however, not from the disembarking process. When you plop the unit onto the board it counts as having moved because the transport moved and therefore having them count as having moved too; it has nothing at all to do with the disembarking rules. That would mean that it being true for any transport if it's true in this case isn't quite correct. It would be true for any transport that moves before or during passengers disembarking but not for transports in which the passengers disembark before the transport moves.

This is literally from the disembarking rules.

Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes

Move "further" - and you're told by the disembarking rules that you can act normally after disembarking. But, you already count as having moved when you hit the board at the point you disembark if you moved in a transport and are no longer embarked due to a special rule. That's a separate prohibition from moving or not moving after normally disembarking from a vehicle that hasn't moved.

Whether or not you move after leaving the transport you count as "having moved" for any rules purpose. That's what the rule says. It doesn't say you count as having moved "after moving". It's effective immediately after you disembarked. It's the same as being in a moving transport. The rule I quoted basically says "I don't care if, after disembarking, you actually move or not, you count as having moved".

And honestly, if "you disembarked and got special permission to move" is your argument for that not applying to regular transports, why wouldn't it also apply to disembarking from Valkyries midflight? They still disembarked.

and another follow-up: You realize that Grav-chutes refer to the normal disembarkation rules, do you? It's not magically setting up units on the board, it's letting you disembark:

Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move, but ... (and so on - the remainder isn't relevant)

 Ghaz wrote:
No it doesn't. His point is that it would prevent them from moving after they disembark since they can't move twice and the wording of the actual rule proves that they can.

The rules is sequential. This is how I understand the rule for a normal transport.

1. You disembark, you place the model on the table within 3 inches of the transport. (At this point the model is not counting as moving)
2. You can now act normally, this means you can move/advance.
3. If you chose to stay still after disembarking the model is classed as having moved for rules purposes. In my mind this also means you cannot disembark a unit, move something else then go back and move the disembarked unit. This is because the unit is classed as having moved for rules purposes, and you cannot move a unit a twice.

With the Valk the unit inside is classed as moving as per the FAQ, this means when the acting normally part of the rules kicks in it cannot move again as it has moved already.

Dadavester wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No it doesn't. His point is that it would prevent them from moving after they disembark since they can't move twice and the wording of the actual rule proves that they can.

The rules is sequential. This is how I understand the rule for a normal transport.

1. You disembark, you place the model on the table within 3 inches of the transport. (At this point the model is not counting as moving)
2. You can now act normally, this means you can move/advance.
3. If you chose to stay still after disembarking the model is classed as having moved for rules purposes. In my mind this also means you cannot disembark a unit, move something else then go back and move the disembarked unit. This is because the unit is classed as having moved for rules purposes, and you cannot move a unit a twice.

With the Valk the unit inside is classed as moving as per the FAQ, this means when the acting normally part of the rules kicks in it cannot move again as it has moved already.

this seems to be the top and bottom of it from RAW

disembark from a 'Stationary' vehicle and then move
disembark from a 'Stationary' vehicle then move vehicle (counts as having moved so no further movement)
Disembark from a 'Moving' Vehicle may not move further as models count as having moved while embarked.

Dadavester wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No it doesn't. His point is that it would prevent them from moving after they disembark since they can't move twice and the wording of the actual rule proves that they can.

The rules is sequential. This is how I understand the rule for a normal transport.

1. You disembark, you place the model on the table within 3 inches of the transport. (At this point the model is not counting as moving)
2. You can now act normally, this means you can move/advance.
3. If you chose to stay still after disembarking the model is classed as having moved for rules purposes. In my mind this also means you cannot disembark a unit, move something else then go back and move the disembarked unit. This is because the unit is classed as having moved for rules purposes, and you cannot move a unit a twice.

With the Valk the unit inside is classed as moving as per the FAQ, this means when the acting normally part of the rules kicks in it cannot move again as it has moved already.

Well with what you say in 3 it is pretty clear how you understand that rule is not how it is meant to, there is absolutely no indication that “the unit can then act normally” means “if you don’t move it inmediatly it can’t move for the rest of the phase”.
I will further insist that the sentence “a unit embarked in a transport that has moved counts as having moved” has no effect on a unit that is not embarked since it disembarked for any reason so the disembarking rules only should apply.

Dadavester wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No it doesn't. His point is that it would prevent them from moving after they disembark since they can't move twice and the wording of the actual rule proves that they can.

The rules is sequential. This is how I understand the rule for a normal transport.

1. You disembark, you place the model on the table within 3 inches of the transport. (At this point the model is not counting as moving)
2. You can now act normally, this means you can move/advance.
3. If you chose to stay still after disembarking the model is classed as having moved for rules purposes. In my mind this also means you cannot disembark a unit, move something else then go back and move the disembarked unit. This is because the unit is classed as having moved for rules purposes, and you cannot move a unit a twice.

With the Valk the unit inside is classed as moving as per the FAQ, this means when the acting normally part of the rules kicks in it cannot move again as it has moved already.

Why do you think they are moving again?

Page 3 40k Battle Primer wrote:Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase

You are not selecting the embarked unit to move when you move the Valk...

"count as also having moved" is not the same as actually selecting the embarked unit to move and then physically moving the models in the unit as far as the rules are concerned.

So you can move the models after they disembark as you are not moving them twice, you are only moving them once. You are moving the Valk once, but that has nothing to do with the embarked unit. the now-disembarked unit does "count as also having moved" but since they actually moved this does not matter at all.

Edit: Cleared up some weird wording.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Dadavester wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No it doesn't. His point is that it would prevent them from moving after they disembark since they can't move twice and the wording of the actual rule proves that they can.

The rules is sequential. This is how I understand the rule for a normal transport.

1. You disembark, you place the model on the table within 3 inches of the transport. (At this point the model is not counting as moving)
2. You can now act normally, this means you can move/advance.
3. If you chose to stay still after disembarking the model is classed as having moved for rules purposes. In my mind this also means you cannot disembark a unit, move something else then go back and move the disembarked unit. This is because the unit is classed as having moved for rules purposes, and you cannot move a unit a twice.

With the Valk the unit inside is classed as moving as per the FAQ, this means when the acting normally part of the rules kicks in it cannot move again as it has moved already.

Why do you think they are moving again?

Page 3 40k Battle Primer wrote:Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase

You are not selecting the embarked unit to move when you move the Valk...

"count as also having moved" is not the same as actually selecting the embarked unit to move and then physically moving the models in the unit as far as the rules are concerned.

So you can move the models after they disembark as you are not moving them twice, you are only moving them once. You are moving the Valk once, but that has nothing to do with the embarked unit. the now-disembarked unit does "count as also having moved" but since they actually moved this does not matter at all.

Edit: Cleared up some weird wording.

The BRB FAQ pg 6 states that a unit inside a transport that has moved are classed as moving. So by moving the Valk you are moving the unit inside. So once the unit has disembarked it cannot then be moved again.

Edit: a word.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

this seems to be the top and bottom of it from RAW

disembark from a 'Stationary' vehicle and then move
disembark from a 'Stationary' vehicle then move vehicle (counts as having moved so no further movement)
Disembark from a 'Moving' Vehicle may not move further as models count as having moved while embarked.

How is there a difference between your cases a and b? Disembarking is not part of the movement of the unit being transported. You are allowed to disembark, then move the transport, then move the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dadavester wrote:

The rules is sequential. This is how I understand the rule for a normal transport.

1. You disembark, you place the model on the table within 3 inches of the transport. (At this point the model is not counting as moving)
2. You can now act normally, this means you can move/advance.
3. If you chose to stay still after disembarking the model is classed as having moved for rules purposes. In my mind this also means you cannot disembark a unit, move something else then go back and move the disembarked unit. This is because the unit is classed as having moved for rules purposes, and you cannot move a unit a twice.

With the Valk the unit inside is classed as moving as per the FAQ, this means when the acting normally part of the rules kicks in it cannot move again as it has moved already.

As I already said: Whether or not you move after leaving the transport you count as "having moved" for any rules purpose. That's what the rule says. It doesn't say you count as having moved "after moving". It's effective immediately after you disembarked. It's the same as being in a moving transport. The rule I quoted basically says "I don't care if, after disembarking, you actually move or not, you count as having moved".

There is nothing ng that would indicate that this only happens at the end of the movement phase (which is when you'd decide not to move a unit)

Kaneda88 wrote:

Dadavester wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No it doesn't. His point is that it would prevent them from moving after they disembark since they can't move twice and the wording of the actual rule proves that they can.

The rules is sequential. This is how I understand the rule for a normal transport.

1. You disembark, you place the model on the table within 3 inches of the transport. (At this point the model is not counting as moving)
2. You can now act normally, this means you can move/advance.
3. If you chose to stay still after disembarking the model is classed as having moved for rules purposes. In my mind this also means you cannot disembark a unit, move something else then go back and move the disembarked unit. This is because the unit is classed as having moved for rules purposes, and you cannot move a unit a twice.

With the Valk the unit inside is classed as moving as per the FAQ, this means when the acting normally part of the rules kicks in it cannot move again as it has moved already.

Well with what you say in 3 it is pretty clear how you understand that rule is not how it is meant to, there is absolutely no indication that “the unit can then act normally” means “if you don’t move it inmediatly it can’t move for the rest of the phase”.
I will further insist that the sentence “a unit embarked in a transport that has moved counts as having moved” has no effect on a unit that is not embarked since it disembarked for any reason so the disembarking rules only should apply.

To be honest having read the disembarking rules again I rescind the "you cannot disembark, move a different unit then go back and move the disembarked unit," comment, as the disembark rule states "if you do not move the unit further in your movement phase." So having moved for rules purposes doesn't kick in until the end of the movement phase. I had not taken that part into account when typing that so admit I was in error.

However i still feel my interpretation of the moving after disembarking a moving transport is correct. The FAQ states

Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The unit does not lose the "counts as moved" status because it has disembarked, i cannot see any rule to that affect. The only rule we have is that units inside a transport that have moved, are also counting as having moved. Disembark rules do not contradict this and only give you permission for the unit to act normally.

If you can show me a rule that does i will happily admit I am wrong.

Edit: removed a word.

Dadavester wrote:

I still feel my interpretation of the moving after disembarking a moving transport is correct. The FAQ states

Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The unit does not lose the "counts as moved" status because it has disembarked, i cannot see any rule to that affect. The only rule we have is that units inside a transport that have moved, are also counting as having moved. Disembark rules do not contradict this and only give you permission for the unit to act normally.

If you can show me a rule that does i will happily admit I am wrong.

I agree entirely with you, Dadavester... however I can see that in almost every discussion about this rule on reddit or other forums or here... of which there are many... the vast majority have no issue with AM players moving a transport 45", disembarking within 3" anywhere along that line, then getting to fully move all over again.

The threat radius for plasma scions squads in a vendetta shooting at a non-character is a rectangle 66 inches wide (9 inches either side of the flyer plus 24 inches shooting) and 111 inches long. Bigger than the board.

RAW for the win.

 Silentz wrote:

The threat radius for plasma scions squads in a vendetta shooting at a non-character is a rectangle 66 inches wide (9 inches either side of the flyer plus 24 inches shooting) and 111 inches long. Bigger than the board.

TBH, plasma scions don't need to use the valk, they can just deepstrike wherever they want. 9" is close enough to double tap already. The valk is only useful for melta, flamers and hot-shot lasguns. And Ogryns too for a nice charge.

 Silentz wrote:

Dadavester wrote:

I still feel my interpretation of the moving after disembarking a moving transport is correct. The FAQ states

Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The unit does not lose the "counts as moved" status because it has disembarked, i cannot see any rule to that affect. The only rule we have is that units inside a transport that have moved, are also counting as having moved. Disembark rules do not contradict this and only give you permission for the unit to act normally.

If you can show me a rule that does i will happily admit I am wrong.

I agree entirely with you, Dadavester... however I can see that in almost every discussion about this rule on reddit or other forums or here... of which there are many... the vast majority have no issue with AM players moving a transport 45", disembarking within 3" anywhere along that line, then getting to fully move all over again.

The threat radius for plasma scions squads in a vendetta shooting at a non-character is a rectangle 66 inches wide (9 inches either side of the flyer plus 24 inches shooting) and 111 inches long. Bigger than the board.

RAW for the win.

Tallarn Command Squads (and any other Tallarn) can advance and still shoot their rapid-fire and assault weapons without negative modifiers, so you'll want to add a D6, not that any of that is relevant. And it's not like that threat area changes much by not moving after disembarking, does it? You do realize Valkyries and Vendettas can turn before flying, right?

The real benefit is that you can get within 9'' of the enemy by moving, which while rare, is not unheard of for a turn 1 action. So there's no balance issue, especially since you're not dropping a Khorne Berserker squad, to name something truly dangerous.

I have exploited this rule to the Max already by pulling off a TURN ONE CHARGE WITH STORMTROOPERS.

Everyone should certainly be afraid of the possible abuse of this coming to a tournament near you soon.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I have exploited this rule to the Max already by pulling off a TURN ONE CHARGE WITH STORMTROOPERS.

Everyone should certainly be afraid of the possible abuse of this coming to a tournament near you soon.

The biggest problem is the turn one charge with Bullgryns + Priest + Psyker to give them 1+ saves.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I have exploited this rule to the Max already by pulling off a TURN ONE CHARGE WITH STORMTROOPERS.

Everyone should certainly be afraid of the possible abuse of this coming to a tournament near you soon.

The biggest problem is the turn one charge with Bullgryns + Priest + Psyker to give them 1+ saves.

No, the problem is the mighty stormtrooper aerial tide, way worse than any teleporting ork squad or overclocked scifi-ogres could ever be. Almost as dangerous as Melee Acolytes.

*Pulls out the long combat knife* You will fear the Tempestus Scion!

Dadavester wrote:
To be honest having read the disembarking rules again I rescind the "you cannot disembark, move a different unit then go back and move the disembarked unit," comment, as the disembark rule states "if you do not move the unit further in your movement phase." So having moved for rules purposes doesn't kick in until the end of the movement phase. I had not taken that part into account when typing that so admit I was in error.

However i still feel my interpretation of the moving after disembarking a moving transport is correct. The FAQ states

Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The unit does not lose the "counts as moved" status because it has disembarked, i cannot see any rule to that affect. The only rule we have is that units inside a transport that have moved, are also counting as having moved. Disembark rules do not contradict this and only give you permission for the unit to act normally.

If you can show me a rule that does i will happily admit I am wrong.

Edit: removed a word.

Why do you think they are moving again?

They did not move, you moved their transport. The unit inside only "count as also having moved" Which is not the same as actually moving the dudes inside since you don't actually move the dudes inside.

The valk moving makes the unit inside count as having moved. You then disembark them and keep moving the unit that was embarked. It is all one move, since you have to select a unit to move it per the BRB. And since you didnt select the unit (you only selected the Valk) then you are still free to select them and keep moving them that phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:


Why do you think they are moving again?

Because they count as having moved at the time they disembark due to the transport's move.

 DeathReaper wrote:
They did not move, you moved their transport. The unit inside only "count as also having moved" Which is not the same as actually moving the dudes inside since you don't actually move the dudes inside.

Whether they actually moved or only count as having moved, after they disembark they are in a state of already being treated as having moved. That means they don't move again.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The valk moving makes the unit inside count as having moved. You then disembark them and keep moving the unit that was embarked. It is all one move, since you have to select a unit to move it per the BRB. And since you didnt select the unit (you only selected the Valk) then you are still free to select them and keep moving them that phase.

No, it already counts as having moved when it disembarks, so it does not get to move. You can try to select them later in the phase, but they already count as having moved at that point as per the FAQ, so are not eligible to move again. that phase.

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Why do you think they are moving again?

Because they count as having moved at the time they disembark due to the transport's move.

The way I read it, they only count as having moved so long as they stay embarked. Once they disembark they no longer count as having moved since they are not currently embarked.

Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The models are not inside so they are not affected by this FAQ.

Therefore the base rules apply about being able to act normally after disembarkation.

So they really only move once.

 doctortom wrote:
No, it already counts as having moved when it disembarks, so it does not get to move. You can try to select them later in the phase, but they already count as having moved at that point as per the FAQ, so are not eligible to move again. that phase.

The rules say:

BRB Page 177 wrote:No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.

It doesn't matter if it "counts as" being moved, it hasn't actually been moved that turn, so it can be selected to move. It's the same as Warptime not allowing units to benefit from FLY. "As if" is not the same as "is".

 DeathReaper wrote:
Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The models are not inside so they are not affected by this FAQ.

Therefore the base rules apply about being able to act normally after disembarkation.

So they really only move once.

They were inside when the vehicle started moving, therefore they are affected by this FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
No, it already counts as having moved when it disembarks, so it does not get to move. You can try to select them later in the phase, but they already count as having moved at that point as per the FAQ, so are not eligible to move again. that phase.

The rules say:

BRB Page 177 wrote:No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.

It doesn't matter if it "counts as" being moved, it hasn't actually been moved that turn, so it can be selected to move. It's the same as Warptime not allowing units to benefit from FLY. "As if" is not the same as "is".

So if something counts has having fired its weapons before you select it during the shooting phase, do you allow the unit to fire its weapons?

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The models are not inside so they are not affected by this FAQ.

Therefore the base rules apply about being able to act normally after disembarkation.

So they really only move once.

They were inside when the vehicle started moving, therefore they are affected by this FAQ.

False.

The models embarked inside it count as also having moved. So if they are still embarked they count as also having moved.

But, it hasn't actually been moved that turn, so it can be selected to move as per the rules for disembarking.

An interesting development. I have been made aware that there is another unit that can disembark a transport after it has moved.

A Soaring Spite Harlequin Warlord with the Skystrider Warlord Trait. According to the Harlequin FAQ, it can move after it disembarks from a transport.

Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Yeah, I think that's it. Super glad Valkyries still serve a purpose for Scions.

Dandelion wrote:
Yeah, I think that's it. Super glad Valkyries still serve a purpose for Scions.

Turn one super melta and FRFSRF in rapid fire range with hot-shot lasguns!

 Apple Peel wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Yeah, I think that's it. Super glad Valkyries still serve a purpose for Scions.

Turn one super melta and FRFSRF in rapid fire range with hot-shot lasguns!

Huzzah!

I am delighted to be wrong.

Element Games posted me a Valkyrie and another box of Scions out this morning, actually!

It will undoubtedly take me a couple of months to get them painted so I'd expect this to be FAQ'd out in March just before I actually use them

I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because Scions are cool, and if played right against most people, they should be theoretically fine, considering they are kitted out most of the time to be anti-MEQ.
I’m pretty sure the majority of player play Marines, so this gives one a natural advantage.

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

nekooni wrote:
Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Just because Unit A has been FAQ'd to allow something, doesn't automatically mean that unit B can do it as well. The AM Transport Formation states that units using the formation cannot move further, so should that mean that units in a Valk cannot as well?

However given the communities overall view I will accept that maybe I am wrong, I do think it still needs an FAQ either way.

4 plasma scions jumping out of a valkyrie with +1 to hit and the "reroll all wounds" scions stratagem will AVERAGE over 14 unsaved wounds against T8 3+ save.

They can deep strike within 9 anyway, but this allows them to get within 3" of the screen to get the things BEHIND the screen into half range and shoot over the screen.

Before this change hot shot lasguns always came in at greater than half range, so would be denied rapid fire and their exploding 6s didn't trigger. This more than doubles the effectiveness of that weapon.

Before this, melta came in at greater than half range and couldn't get exploding 6s. It will now them, plus get roll 2d6 pick the highest damage.

There are defo benefits to this.

Dadavester wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Just because Unit A has been FAQ'd to allow something, doesn't automatically mean that unit B can do it as well. The AM Transport Formation states that units using the formation cannot move further, so should that mean that units in a Valk cannot as well?

However given the communities overall view I will accept that maybe I am wrong, I do think it still needs an FAQ either way.

AM transport formation? What?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are talking about Rapid Redeploy, I’m thinking that stratagem specifically excludes you from moving the chosen unit, however, Grav-chute Inserion and the Skystrider trait do not.

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

Dadavester wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Just because Unit A has been FAQ'd to allow something, doesn't automatically mean that unit B can do it as well. The AM Transport Formation states that units using the formation cannot move further, so should that mean that units in a Valk cannot as well?

However given the communities overall view I will accept that maybe I am wrong, I do think it still needs an FAQ either way.

Absolutely - it clearly needs a FAQ entry, judging by how many opposed that reading of the rules. The Harlequin one is hard to find, even though it does answer the question at hand quite well, unless you refuse to apply it "because it's not mentioned by name"

If the formation explicitly states that units disembarking from their formation transport cannot move, that's an additional restriction of that formation.

Otherwise wouldn't I be able to also claim the benefits that formation might provide?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

What was your list.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

that makes sense - I've played regular Command Squads with Officers, and those are already pretty good hitting on threes, with no survivability. Looks like the formation is simply too good - it feels like I've seen that before... is that you, Seventh Edition, hiding in a Campaign book?!

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

What was your list.

It's posted in the list forum - But a brief summary...

Stormtrooper Battalion -

Tempestor, Order Stick, Field Commander, Laurels,
Tempestor, Bolt Pistol

2 * 10 Stormtroopers [4 Plasma, 1 Pla Pistol]
1 * 5 Stormtroopers [2 Plasma, 1 Plas Pistol]

3* Valkyarie Missile Pods,Multi Laser
1* Valkayrie Hellstrikes, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter

Tech Priest, Officer of the Fleet,

Sisters Battalion - Bloody Rose
Cannoness, Hitting Sword, Re-roll wounds Warlord Trait,
HQ Priest, Chainsword

5 Repentia
Mistress - Brazier of Denial

5 Sisters, 2 * Storm
5 Sisters, flamer
5 Sisters, bolt pistol

2 * Sisters Rhino each with 2 Stormbolters.

Pretty sure I didn't miss anything. 1500 points exactly. If I bumped it to 2k, I'd probably chuck a stormtrooper command squad, make the third squad 10man, add in an excorist, and another rhino full of sisters.

4 valks usually isn't a legal list though. Maybe swap in a vendetta?

nekooni wrote:
4 valks usually isn't a legal list though. Maybe swap in a vendetta?

They come in Squadrens, just like Russ'.

For theme reasons, I took one squad of 3, and one lone flyer, but as my opponent pointed out, one squad of two and two independents would have made more sense.
[One Datasheet is 1-3 of them]

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:
4 valks usually isn't a legal list though. Maybe swap in a vendetta?

They come in Squadrens, just like Russ'.

For theme reasons, I took one squad of 3, and one lone flyer, but as my opponent pointed out, one squad of two and two independents would have made more sense.
[One Datasheet is 1-3 of them]

Damm. Should have known that, but since I only own 3 it never came up

Since this seems to have turned into a tactics discussion, I think we're done here.