I'm actually pretty optimistic about the changes. Yes, they are different than what we had but I think with some practice. I'm still waiting until I see the book and make some lists though.
Sisters list building for AoF is certainly out. SB Doms were a thing before the Ro3, nobody will be using the stratagem on SB Doms.
Inferno Seraphim took a hit. The hand flamer is useless, so perhaps the stratagem makes Inferno Seraphim an anti infantry unit when they deepstrike turn 2 with the idea of shielding them somehow to AT turn 3?
Celestine took too many hits. Ro3 still beats us up on our number of HQ choices, so I will probably still play her. If the Geminae are still characters you could kind of look at them as a 4W jump pack canoness with six power sword attacks and no rosarius unless Celestine is nearby and should hide in your Seraphim if you take them because you like the models? Makes me wonder if players would get upset if you entwined the two on one base and played them that way. Sorry for the run on sentence, you shouldn't play them.
I've seen it played and discussed differently in the reviews and batreps, is the heal AoF capable of bringing back d3 models or just d3 wounds on a character now as before?
Had hoped the Beta would fix our long time stinker units. PenEngines, Repentia, Celestians, Exorcist, not Celestine HQ.
PenEngines- Scorpion82 I believe called out the PenEngines buzzsaws as 0pt wargear? I can't always understand him terribly well, does anyone know for sure? I like that they get Zealot and a 5+++, always fighting twice makes them the most faithful unit in the army. Their lack of AoF means nothing because of well, AoF. The buzzsaws price will be the determining factor since they will rarely make it where they are going, but they got better.
Repentia- down to 15pts, OoBR Repentia seem like your best bet and a cheap stratagem makes them pretty handy for tackling big baddies if you get to charge and you leave them nothing else to swing back on. Fighting twice here, if you can pull it off, might be the best use of your Faith Points. Situational, difficult to put together, but they have potential. Haven't played them yet and don't have all the info, but Repentia seem to be better. You might never want to take them, but they got better.
Celestians- haven't seen the data-slate, but from what I have heard and seen from the reviews and batreps, the Beta didn't see them as having an issue and did nothing to fix them. Maybe bodyguard is required to keep Celestine playable now? They didn't get better.
Excorcist- d6 damage is a big improvement, I will probably roll a 1 for number of shots 3/4 of the time and regret taking them. You might never want to take them, but they got better.
not Celestine HQ- Uriah Jacobson got cheaper and is allowed in Sororitas detachments. Helps a little bit with the Ro3 beatstick on the Canoness. I'm not sure if the ministorum rules allow the Blackstone Fortress preacher HQ to do so as well but I think they limit us to one HQ Priest type anyways? No Veridyan, one additional priestly HQ. Would look like help if they hadn't beat on Celestine like she beat on Abbadon at Cadia. Canoness is our best HQ now I think, no liability and can bring her convictions with her inside her transport along with her inferno pistol.
Unfortunately our best units either lost what made them good, synergy with the old AoF or simply remain the same. Seraphim and Retributors will no longer be standouts. Dominions never had any synergy with the old AoF anyways, they are good only because of Vanguard and Repressors. Which still goes out the window when going second.
All in all, Repentia might be the biggest fix from the Beta dex. Probably still not a good unit to put in your army, but it is what it is. Melta Dominions will have even more weight put on their shoulders since Inferno Seraphim can't Alpha AT.
:::Edit::: looks like someone confirmed Buzzsaws are free. So put Repentia and PenEngines as the biggest fix in the Beta.
Looks like I have a few PenEngines to re-assemble and some more Repentia to paint. I wonder did Pious Vorne make it on the list of Ministorum models allowed in Sororitas detachments?
:::Edit::: removed some of the snark, a couple of times.
Where do we go now for feedback and playtest after we get the Beta?
The codex feels a bit lacklustre. Especially in the choices departement. I'm confident, that they will expand into new unit/roles for the real codex.
The problem with that tho is that we are playtesting an incomplete codex. Just one more unit with a specific role can change massively the strength and how a codex is played.
So an interesting question for the beta codex is: What (unit) is missing to make the codex more complete without losing its Sister of Battle character in giving it "every" option there could be?
- A second troop unit.
- "Shieldmaidens" Units with big shields, high defense (still T3) and some kind of protect others ability?
- "Archangels" Elite CC units with wings and flaming swords? Only 1 attack but each attack hits every model in contact?
- "Witchunters" armed with holy crossbows. Deal extra damage to psykers and demons. (may be a bit unfair to specially get a bonus against demons).
What are your opinions on this? Which slots or army functionality needs some love?
Agreed, unfortunately its about what I expected, Hope and the road it leads to and all that.
The problem with that tho is that we are playtesting an incomplete codex. Just one more unit with a specific role can change massively the strength and how a codex is played.
I suspect that's because we just weren't going to be getting any new models. Sadly though I suspect that the existing line being released in plastic only provides the opportunity for a few dual box options. Melee Seraphim type might then become a thing and honestly easty to build push fit Repentia seems more likely than them being expanded to somehow become a dual box. I don't care to speculate more than that or expound on how easy the line would be to do other than to say I don't think the line is going to get much more than we have now just in plastic.
So an interesting question for the beta codex is: What (unit) is missing to make the codex more complete without losing its Sister of Battle character in giving it "every" option there could be?
- A second troop unit.
- "Shieldmaidens" Units with big shields, high defense (still T3) and some kind of protect others ability?
- "Archangels" Elite CC units with wings and flaming swords? Only 1 attack but each attack hits every model in contact?
- "Witchunters" armed with holy crossbows. Deal extra damage to psykers and demons.
- Do we need a second troop unit? I think the novice idea is terrible besides BSS aren't bad for what they are.
- "Shieldmaidens" and "Witchhunters" aren't bad for a dual box of a Celestian redux. Bling them up a bit with the idea of taking either. The option for wargear on Celestian models is key to making them useful. Even if it is just loading them up with Condemnor Boltguns and roasting psykers.
- "Archangels" being jump pack troops with flamers is already sounding like Seraphim. Maybe just jump packs with grenades and Eviscerators?
What are your opinions on this? Which slots or army functionality needs some love?
AoF: I think all in all they would be fine as they are now if they replaced the restriction of once each per turn with each unit can only use one per turn. They have a difficulty Strategems don't have which should limit the amount of times you could use them overall while still allowing them to have an impact. I think the +3 move AoF would be best if it were added to move, advance and charge like the stuff in the Ork codex.
Strategems: If they wanted us to use flamers they may have wanted to give us a stratagem that actually helped flamers in a unit that had a way of using them effectively. The Seraphim strat would have been awesome if it pertained to inferno pistols as well and lasted throughout the turn they deepstrike.
I think the Beta has actually fixed some of our stinker units, how much I'm not sure, unfortunately the AoF and strategems have removed the synergy of our best units while ignoring our units that were passable.
Trying to look on the bright side of what appears to be a massive pile of gak.
If the Gemini are now their own unit and remain characters do they get to use relics? Sadly they are also nerfed as I don;t think you can bring them back once both are dead :(
At least if Clesetine dies now she dies at the endof shooting phase?
Will try and get some testing in and feedback all the issues to GW.
Mr Morden wrote: Will try and get some testing in and feedback all the issues to GW.
This is a pretty consistent core group here... Should we try to formalize our reporting of our experiences in beta? Successful builds, AoF data, win/loss ratios, etc.? A simple Google form would do it if we knew or could infer what GW would care about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, have we really seen strategems yet? Someone said there were 14 and I've only seen a few. Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity, Martyrdom... what else? A strat that does what Catachan doctrine does would be transformative. I'm willing to hope that our cheap, small troop units might allow us to put strategems in a position to really help us... if they're any good.
Wait a minute. CA2018 replaces CA2017. I didn't see anywhere in the leaked CA2018 pics about repressors. Does this mean they're 20 points cheaper again? They went up last year, but I don't see where this persisted to this year.
It's cited by multiple sources and is there is supposedly a designers commentary stating that they reverted the change because d3 shots was so underwhelming and will be rolled out across all factions with the same/similar weapon.
So, seems like going second is going to be a lot easier for Sisters. Clump up and get a 4++ on all your vehicles? sounds decent. edit: Removed the cover question
It's really disappointing. At best its on par with the index but requires way more book keeping and resources to do. At worse its Codex Space Wolves level.
Faith points scale way worse and are way worse. I hardly see it being worth the effort to keep track of them.
Storm bolters are cool but everyone and their mother will see that coming and i'd be shocked if you got to it more than once.
Flagents and Repenta could be good but they need a rhino which suffers from the IK meta.
pretre wrote: So, seems like going second is going to be a lot easier for Sisters. Clump up and get a 4++ on all your vehicles? sounds decent.
They FAQ'd cover to not work on Invuls, right?
It never worked on invuls......
BRB
"If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain
feature, add 1 to its models’ saving throws
against shooting attacks to represent the
cover received from the terrain (invulnerable
saves are unaffected). Units gain no benefit
from cover in the Fight phase."
My newest list hasn't changed a lot. I lost 2 imagifers freeing up 80 points which will in turn pay for the third rets squad. so rather than 2-4 rets firing a turn, it's a flat 3 rets a turn. That's a wash.
Celestine was nerfed, but that frees up 65 points. Sad, but a points win. That pays for a few free meltas.
Most likely, I'll drop the inferno pistols on my Seraphim for hand flamers and bump the squad up to 10 and only deep strike them. They'll be a sucide bolter squad to drop down and pop the strat to shoot 32 bolters shots and 8D6 hand flamer shots.
Now for deployment, you just castle up in a starfish pattern around Celestine, a canoness, and a BSS squad.
If you lose the roll off and go second, you pop the 1CP strat to give your BSS's banner the +1 shield of faith aura in the shooting phase.
Your cannoness has the +1 aura relic (she'll be hanging out with the rets for rerolls later anyway)
Celestine still has her +1 aura.
So now most of your army which is waiting to receive shots has a 3++.
This is possible is it not? Don't the aura rules say they can stack to a 3++ max?
This is my current list, and it demolished a good Ork list last week so i'm pretty stoked about it.
The Castellan didn't actually do anything that game. Celestine, rets, and storm bolters just mowed boys down. The Castellan popped 1 trukk and killed a couple tractor cannons.
If LVO was tomorrow this is what I'd pack up and take.
I liked the idea of trying out stacking shield of faith bonuses as well, and I'm wondering, is it ever worth taking a big BSS over 3 smaller ones with triple SB?
The big squad makes better use of Stragems and Faith points, but can suffer due to moral (unless you go martyred lady), has less firepower, and makes filling out a battalion more expensive.
So I played 4 games today using the rules for the Beta Codex, would probably have been 3 games but two of them were quite short. I'm not going to go into full bat reps because it would take too long to type all that up and I don't want to be typing all night, but I will do brief summaries.
For my list I was able to get in roughly 140pts more stuff in than the index, mainly due to the discounts in special weapons, exorcists, Celestine, etc. However some opposing armies were able to take more due to CA 2018, so it was likely a wash.
The list was roughly.
2x 15 BSS w/ SBs w/ Simulacrums
1x 5 BSS w/ SBs in Immo
7 Seraphim w/ Infernos
Gemini
Celestine
3x Exorcists
3x Rets w/ Heavy Bolters
2x Doms w/ Meltas in Immos
1x Doms w/ SBs in Immo
2 Canoness
1 Brigade, 1 Spearhead. 11 FPs and 9 CPs. Used Sacred rose for morale control and better overwatch.
I was figuring that because we can't really alpha strike anymore I would put more emphasis on long range firepower, hence the 6 Heavy choices, and took less Seraphim. Also didn't use Repressors cause they are Index and I am trying to just test the Beta Codex. My points might have been off slightly but I'm pretty sure I was within a margin of ~20pts, and my opponents were ok with that.
1st game vs. Ultramarines w/ Bobby G, standard gunline: The inability to get into the face of the marines in the first turn really hurt. Exorcists did fairly well but were dropped by the end of the 3rd turn. Bottom line is Ultras do a far better gunline than Sisters can pretend to and the game was basically over by the bottom of the third. The core was reasonably hard to shift but anything trying to gain objectives or control the board would get taken out before doing anything. Loss for Sisters.
2nd game vs. Knights/Guard/Custodes: Castellan vs loyal 32 w/ extra mortar teams and 2 Dawneagle caps, and Allarus cap with a handful of DS allarus. This was the fastest game. He got first turn and an Exorcist and Immo carrying metas got popped first. I got a turn of decent shooting but really had no answer for the Castellan. The Allarus dropped in the backfield and split into 6 different units so I couldn't focus them down well. I did a fair amount of damage to the Guard and Custodes and Celestine put up a decent fight but I wasn't able to do anything to the firebase of the Castellan and Mortars. Loss for Sisters.
3rd game vs. Orks, horde mainly: I feel like I had the best chance in this one, the Immolators and massed bolters did pretty well against the Horde and Celestine even killed his Warboss. The overwatch bonus was also pretty nice. In the end he had better board control and I just didn't have the firepower to get him off enough objectives. Loss for Sisters, but this one did go 6 turns (though mathematically it was nearly a lost cause by the bottom of 4).
4th game vs. Quins and Wych Cult. This one was frustrating, but I was playing against my own army. He basically focused on staying out of rapid fire range and whittled me down for the first couple turns, Haywire ripped the Exorcists and Immolators apart. Then on turn three the Silent Shroud Skyweavers charged in without overwatch, the Solitare blitzed Celestine, Wyches charged the units tied down by the Skyweavers. It was a big rumble for a turn or two but the Eldar were CC specialists, the Sisters aren't. The Solitaire/Celestine fight was fun, ironically if Celestine had that 7th wound she might have won. The Solitaire packs Cegorachs Rose a 3 damage Kiss so he only had to get 2 wounds through rather than 3. Also didn't help that I overwatched him and did a wound so he got stronger She came back and engaged again, but eventually lost, again. Overall I couldn't compete with his mobility and he was able to dictate when CC would happen. Loss for Sisters.
So I'm 0-4 with the Beta Codex, which is... discouraging. With the exception of the Ork matchup it wasn't really close either. I'm not a bad player, I tend to win more than I lose, but I won't claim to be a GT winner either.
Some Thoughts:
1) Acts of Faith, aren't really a thing anymore. Really just used to randomly increase accuracy or try to bring something back to life. I definitely wouldn't take a trait to increase faith, or use CPs to influence Acts of Faith or gain faith points. Plan on them having a minimal effect on the game and you won't be disappointed.
2) Stratagems: Blessed Ammo and the 4+ to deny the witch one are the best we have. Really most CPs were spent on rerolls. The standard one to increase invulns was ok too.
3) Relics and Warlord traits: just ok, being able to increase survivability and make Deny the Witch usable is nice.
4) Units:
-Celestine is not bad. Still worth taking, just not dominant like she once was. I don't think Gemini are needed anymore, I'll be dropping them.
-Exorcists are ok, a little more reward for their inconsistency now. Its not that they are worth taking, but they are absolutely necessary if you aren't running allies. Still not enough firepower to significantly concern Knights though.
-Seraphim are worse than I thought. I don't think I got them to a juicy target for those Inferno Pistols to hit in any of the 4 games. Hand flamers might be the way to go now, but anti-infantry isn't our shortcoming, anti-tank is. So I don't know what to do with them.
-Dominions are probably our best unit, I did try out the 5 SB unit with Blessed Ammo, its awesome. But again it solves a problem we didn't really have, it will probably stay in the list.
-BSS squads, they're solid, as usual. You get what you pay for here. The larger squads work well with Sacred Rose and invuln buffs. Smaller ones are good for Immolators. Still not fully sold on big squads, really don't know the best approach yet.
-Retributors... they may be past their prime. They still have decent output, and for the cost they are ok. They still put out some consistent firepower though. Heavy Flamer Rets might be the better way to go now, but again, our deficiency is not in short range firepower. At least the Heavy Bolter Rets can clear screens.
Well hopefully that helped, I'm a little depressed now. My advice, Index tactics are gone, we have to move on and try to figure out a different way to win. I don't know what that is yet, but I'll keep brainstorming.
Next I might try MSU Immolator Spam with a ton of Meltas. Try to relive the old Mechanized Sisters days. Really wish Rhino and Immolators were 25pts cheaper each.
Rynner wrote: DE are a bad match up for Sisters. They have been for awhile. Ravangers are too cheap and that 4++ is absurdly op on everything.
I'm not really shocked about games 1,2 and 4. Game 3 feels like it should have been a win.
1) I play DE and SoB, you are wrong 2) Ravagers dont kill as much as you think, they are bad against 1 wound models, you are wasting them. 1 Ravager kills only 4 Sob models, and thats with re-rolls and without a 5++/6+++ that you cna get on new sobs 3) Ravagers are only a 5++, they are 4+/5++ and may get a 6+++ 4) Only coven can have 4++ on everything
Coven are more of a counter to SOB than Kabal/ravagers are. Kabals do other to SOB honestly. Just kill the Coven.
That last game was more Harlequins than it was Drukhari. And it was Cult, not Kabal. The Drukhari component was just 3 small Wych squads in Venoms, 2 Succubus, and a couple small Reaver squads. 3/4 of it was Harlequins, Soaring Spite and Silent Shroud.
Creeping Dementia wrote: So I played 4 games today using the rules for the Beta Codex,I was figuring that because we can't really alpha strike anymore I would put more emphasis on long range firepower, hence the 6 Heavy choices, and took less Seraphim. Also didn't use Repressors cause they are Index and I am trying to just test the Beta Codex. My points might have been off slightly but I'm pretty sure I was within a margin of ~20pts, and my opponents were ok with that. <snip> Well hopefully that helped, I'm a little depressed now. My advice, Index tactics are gone, we have to move on and try to figure out a different way to win. I don't know what that is yet, but I'll keep brainstorming.
Sisters have never been a gunline army so no surprise there. Repressors loaded with Melta Doms were the only thing allowing Sisters to punch above their weight pre Betadex that we still have left so removing them is just going to result in pain and frustration. Retributors need to ditch the hvy bolters and find some space in a Repressor as well, they can no longer look to double-shoot and without a need to use an AoF they might as well just mount up and fire hvy flamers or otherwise from inside a Repressor. Shooty units need to ride Repressors to get close enough to shoot and stay mounted as long as they can. Repentia or melee characters you bring along should probably be riding in Immolators.
Form up your invuln bubble in deployment for going second, perhaps deepstrike Seraphim into hidden spots turn 2 and look to AT turn 3, mount up and roll forward looking to get across the open ground and remember. She who bails, fails. It's going to be just like old times...
There's a few good things so far in that codex that I have seen could lead to decent strats.
An eviscerator canoness going up the fields with dominions could be very nice.
Give them divine guidance so that they hit on 2s instead of 3 and pop the Holy Trinity stratagem on those dominions and they are wounding on 2s or 3s (against thoughness 8).
Equip your dominions with 4 meltas and put a combi-flamer on the superior and you've got the requirements for that stratagem down.
You could do the same with retributors, 4 heavy flamers and a combi-melta on the superior and suddently you have heavy flamers that are wounding most infantries on 2s and even land raiders on 4s.
Now if we could use that stratagem more than once per turn, it would be awesome.
There's a few good things so far in that codex that I have seen could lead to decent strats.
An eviscerator canoness going up the fields with dominions could be very nice.
Give them divine guidance so that they hit on 2s instead of 3 and pop the Holy Trinity stratagem on those dominions and they are wounding on 2s or 3s (against thoughness 8).
Equip your dominions with 4 meltas and put a combi-flamer on the superior and you've got the requirements for that stratagem down.
You could do the same with retributors, 4 heavy flamers and a combi-melta on the superior and suddently you have heavy flamers that are wounding most infantries on 2s and even land raiders on 4s.
Now if we could use that stratagem more than once per turn, it would be awesome.
All of that is a one trick pony. Your squad hops out, you use the strat they kill the target. Your squad is dead next turn.
deviantduck wrote: All of that is a one trick pony. Your squad hops out, you use the strat they kill the target. Your squad is dead next turn.
Even worse, the strat requires the different weapon types to be fired by different models. So your combi-weapon doesn't count for enabling your stratagem.
Sisters have never been a gunline army so no surprise there. Repressors loaded with Melta Doms were the only thing allowing Sisters to punch above their weight pre Betadex that we still have left so removing them is just going to result in pain and frustration. Retributors need to ditch the hvy bolters and find some space in a Repressor as well, they can no longer look to double-shoot and without a need to use an AoF they might as well just mount up and fire hvy flamers or otherwise from inside a Repressor. Shooty units need to ride Repressors to get close enough to shoot and stay mounted as long as they can. Repentia or melee characters you bring along should probably be riding in Immolators.
Form up your invuln bubble in deployment for going second, perhaps deepstrike Seraphim into hidden spots turn 2 and look to AT turn 3, mount up and roll forward looking to get across the open ground and remember. She who bails, fails. It's going to be just like old times...
Yeah that is where things are heading based on the games I've done so far. As I mentioned I purposefully left Repressors out because they aren't in the Codex, and it isn't really an accurate test of the Beta Codex if I'm relying heavily on units that are not in the Codex.
Realistically, it might be best just to throw everything in Repressors/Immolators, and spend most of your CPs on rerolls for Exorcists. Seraphim may not be worth it at all. Rets also might be out, IMO heavy flamers are still too expensive.
End goal being a slowly advancing wall of Immos/Repressors, with Celestine and some Arcos or Repentia in a transport as a counter attack element moving within a box of transports, back wall of the box being the Exorcists. The transports are just so damn expensive though.
So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
I'll give it a few weeks after the CA and then I'll put together something of a list / petition to gather the general initial thoughts/requests of the community. I'll take it to different parts of the web for a broader range of views and to give everyone an opportunity to share their thoughts. I'll try keep it as concise as possible, but would love to have:
- Ratings and comments for each unit in the codex.
- General comments on the playstyle, strengths, weaknesses and character of the army.
- Ratings and comments for each of the stratagems, Acts of Faith and order bonuses.
- Top 10 suggestions for the new codex, as voted by the community.
I think if we could get a document like that together, with support from a large base of sisters players, that would be a great help to GW and a great step towards us getting the sisters codex we've waited for for over a decade.
For now, I'm also feeling a little bit of hopelessness at the beta codex. I feel like they've somehow added more complexity/"bloat" yet at the same time made Sisters less unique and fun. Not an easy thing to do. It's hard not to just see this as ruining everything I've been training my sisters army for. But I'm choosing to look at this with hope since GW have promised to listen, and this beta codex just gives us a platform from which to speak.
We're assuming that the AoF benefit from Vessels isnt restricted to sisters of the same Order keyword. So having an ebon chalice faith booster cannoness may not benefit a Bloody Rose etc group nearby.
Weidekuh wrote: The codex feels a bit lacklustre. Especially in the choices departement. I'm confident, that they will expand into new unit/roles for the real codex.
The problem with that tho is that we are playtesting an incomplete codex. Just one more unit with a specific role can change massively the strength and how a codex is played.
So an interesting question for the beta codex is: What (unit) is missing to make the codex more complete without losing its Sister of Battle character in giving it "every" option there could be? - A second troop unit. - "Shieldmaidens" Units with big shields, high defense (still T3) and some kind of protect others ability? - "Archangels" Elite CC units with wings and flaming swords? Only 1 attack but each attack hits every model in contact? - "Witchunters" armed with holy crossbows. Deal extra damage to psykers and demons. (may be a bit unfair to specially get a bonus against demons).
What are your opinions on this? Which slots or army functionality needs some love?
A lot of this codex needs some love. There are several VERY clear holes in the army list at present.
The biggest thing that needs immediate help (besides the Geminae) though, is the current AoF system. Now, the way getting Faith Points, Spending Spending Faith Points, Combo-ing AoFs with stratagems and Convinctions, etc stuff all works together is legitimately very good, very interesting, and very nuanced.
The problem is you go to actually USE a faith point and have to ask yourself 'Is the bonus I get from this even worth the energy it takes to roll this dice?' The answer is usually 'probably not'
Also, Celestine herself got nerfed too heavily. She needs at least some decent flavor rule going forward because right now she's a slightly overpriced Smash Captain.
There's a few good things so far in that codex that I have seen could lead to decent strats.
An eviscerator canoness going up the fields with dominions could be very nice.
Give them divine guidance so that they hit on 2s instead of 3 and pop the Holy Trinity stratagem on those dominions and they are wounding on 2s or 3s (against thoughness 8).
Equip your dominions with 4 meltas and put a combi-flamer on the superior and you've got the requirements for that stratagem down.
You could do the same with retributors, 4 heavy flamers and a combi-melta on the superior and suddently you have heavy flamers that are wounding most infantries on 2s and even land raiders on 4s.
Now if we could use that stratagem more than once per turn, it would be awesome.
How is the Canoness going to follow dominions? Are you footslogging them? Don't footslog them. Also, that's not how that stratagem works. You need three separate MODELS firing the different weapons. The holy trinity setup with 4 meltaguns is actually mathematically worse than just taking 5 meltaguns and using a CP reroll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: So, seems like going second is going to be a lot easier for Sisters. Clump up and get a 4++ on all your vehicles? sounds decent.
edit: Removed the cover question
This is a legitimately pretty good strat...the only problem you run into is that the vehicles themselves are fairly underwhelming. I've seen suggestions and had the thought myself of doing a large blob of spider-webbing 4++ 9pt infantry but...gah that sounds so awful to play from either side of the table. Plus, it's better for castling up a Knight list than trying to win as SoB.
Creeping Dementia wrote: So I played 4 games today using the rules for the Beta Codex,I was figuring that because we can't really alpha strike anymore I would put more emphasis on long range firepower, hence the 6 Heavy choices, and took less Seraphim. Also didn't use Repressors cause they are Index and I am trying to just test the Beta Codex. My points might have been off slightly but I'm pretty sure I was within a margin of ~20pts, and my opponents were ok with that. <snip> Well hopefully that helped, I'm a little depressed now. My advice, Index tactics are gone, we have to move on and try to figure out a different way to win. I don't know what that is yet, but I'll keep brainstorming.
Sisters have never been a gunline army so no surprise there. Repressors loaded with Melta Doms were the only thing allowing Sisters to punch above their weight pre Betadex that we still have left so removing them is just going to result in pain and frustration. Retributors need to ditch the hvy bolters and find some space in a Repressor as well, they can no longer look to double-shoot and without a need to use an AoF they might as well just mount up and fire hvy flamers or otherwise from inside a Repressor. Shooty units need to ride Repressors to get close enough to shoot and stay mounted as long as they can. Repentia or melee characters you bring along should probably be riding in Immolators.
Form up your invuln bubble in deployment for going second, perhaps deepstrike Seraphim into hidden spots turn 2 and look to AT turn 3, mount up and roll forward looking to get across the open ground and remember. She who bails, fails. It's going to be just like old times...
This is a very sad thing actually. Melta Doms were just about the only thing going for us in 6th and 7th and when 8th came out and other units were suddenly usable, it was great! Now we're back to Melta Doms only again. My current only real idea for a tournament list is a Min Battalion with 3 immolator/repressor melta doms and 987(ish) points of allies.
Also, for Creeping Dementia, have you tried using Vessels to give the Exorcist+1 to hit also? Because that does actually work and it maths out...bad but better than some other uses of Vessels.
I could see a blobbed up group of 3++/4++ sisters and tanks advancing up the field first turn, relying on that invo to weather the storm and then spearing off mid field fir objective grabs and vehicles running harassment and distraction to to cover the footsloggers.
Definately going to be an interesting time to see what works and what doesnt.
Exorcists working in concert (hur hur)to focus down large threats at least have a chance to deal some decent damage now. I know the math hammerers will decry otherwise but i know my babies; they too have been disgusted at the previous d3 damage and under performed because of their disgust. Whisper this sweet new thing to them and i know theyre gonna strike with a vengeance and carve glorious destruction...thats right math hammerers, my luck and superstition outweighs your numbers
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giantwalkingchair wrote: I could see a blobbed up group of 3++/4++ sisters and tanks advancing up the field first turn, relying on that invo to weather the storm and then spearing off mid field fir objective grabs and vehicles running harassment and distraction to to cover the footsloggers.
Definately going to be an interesting time to see what works and what doesnt.
Exorcists working in concert (hur hur)to focus down large threats at least have a chance to deal some decent damage now. I know the math hammerers will decry otherwise but i know my babies; they too have been disgusted at the previous d3 damage and under performed because of their disgust. Whisper this sweet new thing to them and i know theyre gonna strike with a vengeance and carve glorious destruction...thats right math hammerers, my luck and superstition outweighs your numbers
The issue Exorcists have now(outside of their average output being pretty subpar) is that it's even more impossible to predict what they're going to than it usually is. They have something like a 27% chance to do basically nothing, and a small chance you could overkill a Knight Castellant by 8 wounds with ONE of them. It makes them funny, it makes them better than they were before, but it also makes them insanely frustrating. Sun Tzu once said: "Know your enemy, know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." Well with an Exorcist you know nothin about nothin and need to be afraid of every shooting phase.
The thing you picture is a nice image, but ultimately has some serious flaws. Battle sisters are still T3 and a lot of the best weapons in the game for killing them (Heavy bolters, Assault Cannons, others) won't actually hit that 4++ invul. Also the bubble is so small that you get infantry OR vehicles, not usually both. Even if you could do both, a 4++ isn't enough to weather the storm in this era. It could work, but it wouldn't be weathering the storm before cleverly rushing off to take valuable objectives, it would be 'pray you die the turn AFTER the game ends.'
My take on what works and what doesn't right now? Dominions work. Allies work. The rest...kinda doesn't.
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it. SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it.
SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
Vessels is limited to within 6" of a character. It will hit EXACTLY the same the same number of units as any other Aura ability, including the Chapter master aura. I 6-7 units is the BASELINE I assumed you would be getting before you tried to use the stratagem at all. Being able to use it on different character is a slight buff over the other stratagem, but in all likelihood you'll just use it on the same Canoness every turn. There are some fringe cases where you might have two clumps big enough to be worth it but...honestly probably not.
'If the ability will win me the game it will be worth it' What if they're part of the reason you didn't win before that? They clearly won't win you the game the vast majority of the time. It's entirely likely that something you could/should have gotten INSTEAD of those abilities would have won the game more easily. If you had brought allies with better stratagems, you would have likely won the game easily and not needed the extra 3+ move or +1 to hit. If they hadn't made the AoFs at all and instead every unit had gone down 1ppm, there is a strong possibly that that slight reduction in points would have been be FAR more impactful than those abilities.
Not being the same as the other armies doesn't mean you should be be worse. 18 Heavy bolters means you either aren't playing Matched play or have at least 6 Battle Sister Squads equipped with heavy bolters. Either way, that's...not an ideal loadout. You're paying almost 900pts(assuming you also want the 4++ and reroll AoF) and 3CP in the setup you described and it's pretty lacking in firepower compared to what other armies are going to do for the same investment. Even with Vessels and the Canoness rerolls you're only doing about 17 wounds to marines(only 13 to ravenguard) with the heavy bolters and 8 wounds with the stormbolters and another maybe 5 or so with the rest of the bolters. Don't get me wrong, you'll absolutely mulch through hordes, but other armies can do the same thing without needing half their army to hug each other in the center of the board.
You're also very vulnerable to charges. The first time something makes it into charge range, you're going to lose that whole block because of how stuck together they have to be to benefit from Vessels. And with only Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters and the unit being its own chaff...it's likely to be more of a sitting duck than a firebase. Custodes Jetbikes would close you down and kill you fairly quickly. Even a single rhino that made it in would likely be able to lock up a fair handful of the squads. Sure, you could 'the passion' at that point but it probably won't help much with Sister's melee stats.
If you go up against a Guilliman gunline...that's probably going to be a problem. Even if you do the 4++ thing you just won't be able to compete with their output. Plus the whole 'Mortal wound bomb' stratagem they can hit your entire army with. Guard will also be quite difficult. Your best matchup is probably CWE but Alaitoc is going to completely counter Vessels basically for free while you still have to blow 3CP per turn. Even then, you can definitely still just fail the Act and not get any benefit at all, which will be a terrific opening for your opponent.
Everyone else got point drops and we pretty much didn't. At the same time they removed an incredibly powerful system for the sake of a mediocre system that doesn't really seem to mesh with the army's toolkit. It doesn't matter who's meta now when just about every army got better and we saw, at best, no significant improvement. Even if you're fine with the new system, it's very hard to argue that it isn't weaker than the old one.
.
It used to be that T3 was wounded on 3s by S4 and 2s by S5. Now we're not wounded on 2+ until S6, which is a +1S buff
T4 on the other hand, USED to be wounded on 3s by S5 and 2s on S6. Now they're not wounded on 2s until S8, which is a +2 buff. So relative to T3, T4 is actually better than it used to be.
ERJAK wrote: You're also very vulnerable to charges. The first time something makes it into charge range, you're going to lose that whole block because of how stuck together they have to be to benefit from Vessels. And with only Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters and the unit being its own chaff...it's likely to be more of a sitting duck than a firebase. Custodes Jetbikes would close you down and kill you fairly quickly. Even a single rhino that made it in would likely be able to lock up a fair handful of the squads. Sure, you could 'the passion' at that point but it probably won't help much with Sister's melee stats.
I would like to hear how he plans to avoid tripointing with that many units in that narrow area. Unit of ork boyz/stealers/slaanesh daemonettes/whatever charges one unit, pile ins, consolidiates, possibly fight again to make this work even more likely and ensures one squad he did not declare as charge target has model surrounded in triangle. Hey presto you have 20+ melee specialists in his firebase that he can't shoot at.
Tau yesterday almost fell for that bunching up in gunline of extra shots and mutual overwatch. Well 30 orks supported by lootas thinning down firewarriors to more manageable numbers meant that I had 78% chance of getting to his dz with untargeatable ork boyz mob.
That's the flipside of crowding in on small base for auras. Makes harder to avoid that one.
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it.
SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
So the single biggest problem I see with this is that you'll probably be playing a Soritas Castle/Primaris gunline style of game(something that is not interesting) in a somewhat less effective manner.(Probably with an even less fun 3++/4++ Army)
this is a disorganized jumbled mess but I have a few take-aways from my first read through.
So... my understanding is that our army is now a mass of tanks that require celestine and a cannoness with the +1 SoF invul save trait to cross the board in a hyper aggressive manner before engaging with your entire army up close. This seems to fit our fluff... rhinos/immos/melta/stormbolters...
turn 1 move celestine and a cannoness (advance and AoF for +3 inches... possibly using the Vessel ability to get all the tanks behind you to move +3 as well (Vessel works on ALL sororitas models, not just AoF ones). Pop smoke on takes and weather a turn of fire.
Turn 2 should be close enough to engage or repeat turn 1 sans smoke.... use Vessel on dumped out models to hit on 2+ with entire army, screening with tanks to prevent counter assult.
-use arcos/repentia to fight enemies that DO assault.
Notes...
1)arcos near a priest with the strat will be 81 attacks...
2) repentia with bloody rose are str 8 when assaulting/assaulted/charging... and if rumors are true, you can reroll all to hit rolls not just misses near a misstress
3) book of st lucious will extend the vessel strat to 9 inch radius bubble
4) you can't rely on faith in this dex... it plays very different than index
5) Currrent meta is not able to handle multiple T7 models unless the enemy has a castellan... which our 4++ and smoke launchers pretty much shut down. Yes we will lose a few models, but seriously, we basically shut it down.
6) the fight twice act of faith... its hard to get off, but when it works it will be worth it. Consider ebon chalice characters to trigger it near other orders. 4+ with a reroll from 1cp strat is 75% success rate. Not perfect, but not terrible either.
Another viable build is tons of bolter bodies and gunline...
Neat Unit combo:
Seraphim with strat + BA smash captain: deepstrike the seraphim in, shoot a hole in the screen units, then use the strat to move the BA smash captain into the hole the seraphim made. assault 3d6 with a reroll/no overwatch... profit.
superwill wrote: I'll give it a few weeks after the CA and then I'll put together something of a list / petition to gather the general initial thoughts/requests of the community. I'll take it to different parts of the web for a broader range of views and to give everyone an opportunity to share their thoughts. I'll try keep it as concise as possible, but would love to have:
- Ratings and comments for each unit in the codex.
- General comments on the playstyle, strengths, weaknesses and character of the army.
- Ratings and comments for each of the stratagems, Acts of Faith and order bonuses.
- Top 10 suggestions for the new codex, as voted by the community.
I think if we could get a document like that together, with support from a large base of sisters players, that would be a great help to GW and a great step towards us getting the sisters codex we've waited for for over a decade.
For now, I'm also feeling a little bit of hopelessness at the beta codex. I feel like they've somehow added more complexity/"bloat" yet at the same time made Sisters less unique and fun. Not an easy thing to do. It's hard not to just see this as ruining everything I've been training my sisters army for. But I'm choosing to look at this with hope since GW have promised to listen, and this beta codex just gives us a platform from which to speak.
I could get behind something like this. I actually had the thought of doing a 'hot take' on the beta Codex on Sunday that goes through each entry and give my opinion(and some of the opinions here, including a few that might not align with my own). This would also form a template for me to consider my opinion of the rules as we progress.
Hey sorry if I've missed the relevant information in the thread, but just want to check my understanding as I've not seen the large scale leaks. I think I've seen mention of a +1 invulnerable stratagem using the simulacrum, is this an aura or unit only and can seraphrim take one?
Just hoping I can use them as a screen for celestine and use them to escorts some transports up the table giving them a 4++ and maybe vessels for increased movement if I'm flush with CP.
Also does celestine have a fixed warlord trait or can she take the +1 invulnerable warlord trait giving her a +2 aura? It feels unlikely to me but I haven't seen anything to the contrary.
ragnorack1 wrote: Hey sorry if I've missed the relevant information in the thread, but just want to check my understanding as I've not seen the large scale leaks. I think I've seen mention of a +1 invulnerable stratagem using the simulacrum, is this an aura or unit only and can seraphrim take one?
Just hoping I can use them as a screen for celestine and use them to escorts some transports up the table giving them a 4++ and maybe vessels for increased movement if I'm flush with CP.
Also does celestine have a fixed warlord trait or can she take the +1 invulnerable warlord trait giving her a +2 aura? It feels unlikely to me but I haven't seen anything to the contrary.
Seraphim can't carry a Simulacrum Imperilis so they can't use the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant(or whatever it's actually called) Stratagem. I seem to recall the Youtube Video mentioned that Angelic Visage is a 5++ now though.
Cheers for the speedy replies, pity about that. I guess the options for the mobile 4++ are advancing the cannoness and hoping for a decent role, or making a gemini a warlord if they have the character keyword.
Creeping Dementia wrote: So I'm 0-4 with the Beta Codex, which is... discouraging. With the exception of the Ork matchup it wasn't really close either. I'm not a bad player, I tend to win more than I lose, but I won't claim to be a GT winner either.
Skipping repressors is crazy. They are index, but they are FW index which is almost guaranteed not to change even when we get our codex next year. Just use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll say again that I'm waiting for the book in hand to make some lists and then I'll let you know how I feel.
My gut is that Faith is back to pre-8th levels and that's fine. That's what I dealt with for years. Automatic faith was an aberration that I enjoyed but I knew it wouldn't last.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, detail your games in feedback and provide it to the Beta e-mail. Make it professional and well written with bullet pointed summary at beginning at end and someone might read it.
Creeping Dementia wrote: So I'm 0-4 with the Beta Codex, which is... discouraging. With the exception of the Ork matchup it wasn't really close either. I'm not a bad player, I tend to win more than I lose, but I won't claim to be a GT winner either.
Skipping repressors is crazy. They are index, but they are FW index which is almost guaranteed not to change even when we get our codex next year. Just use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll say again that I'm waiting for the book in hand to make some lists and then I'll let you know how I feel.
My gut is that Faith is back to pre-8th levels and that's fine. That's what I dealt with for years. Automatic faith was an aberration that I enjoyed but I knew it wouldn't last..
Couldn't agree more. Repressors are the best transports in the game. Ignoring them is insanity and doesn't give an honest representation to the power level of the army without them.
Auto faith was a refreshing change from 5th/6th/7th and I was hoping it would be altered slightly, but not completely rewritten into the dirt. Compare our system with Guard orders or Eldar Soulburst. It's laughable. You have to build your lists in certain ways to roll high just for bonuses that are negligible.
From what I've read so far, I'm not even factoring in AoF in the construction of my lists. If I occasionally get a bonus on a high roll, neat. But it really doesn't seem worth attempting, especially in a tourney when minutes count.
I was Nids in 2nd and 3rd. Then I didn't start playing again until I started sisters the last couple months of 5th. My 2" tall Carnifexes might see a table top again someday.
I am going to attempt to get a game or two in this weekend and test this codex.
Once that is done and I will make modifications to the current rules and attempt my own system. This is the purpose of a beta after all.
My take on how Acts of Faith should work.
All of them trigger on a 4+. Can still only be used once per round.
Sergeant provides a +1 to trigger AoF Simulacrum upgrade provides another +1 to trigger AoF Characters get a +1 to trigger their AoF.
A basic sister squad would thus trigger her AoF on a 2+ assuming they paid for the simulacrum. Much more reliable. Ebon Chalice and their further +1 would automatically pass AoF making them very reliable if this is how you want to play them.
Seraphims would still be at most on a 3+ since they cannot get a simulacrum.
Characters would be a 3+ as well
This would also make the dialogus more interesting. Paying 30 points for a re-roll is much more interesting when you have a good chance of making that re-roll if the first dice failed.
Given the current Acts of Faith and how small the boosts are, I do not believe the above is game breaking. If they decide to buff the boosts we actually get from those acts, it would be easy enough to change this from a base 4+ to 5+ to trigger and leave the other bonuses in.
A crafty opponent will try to snipe those bonus giving models and as a player, it means you have to chose between losing the sergeant or taking a meltagun out of a squad. Anything that forces a decision on me, I like.
Looking at how this would impact all the AoF in their current state:
- +3 mov
This is still only +3 move. In no way game breaking, but much more reliable now if you're trying to move a blob of 15 sisters to keep up with the tanks or make a move for an objective.
- Heal or rez one unit
Characters and seraphims would get this on a 3+, same as currently. Units could get this on a 2+ given the proper loadout, but chances are this will likely still be used on a character or possibly a melta dominion that was killed. No way game breaking
- 4+ sv vs mortal wounds
Once again no changes for characters and seraphims. Other units could get this on a 2+ (Ebon chalice automatically), but armies that have access to mortal wound powers will force you to use this and then target another unit with other powers.
- +1shooting diff 4
There are three units that would strongly benefit from this one:
Retributors with heavy bolters. As they tend to stay back, it would be easy to get them to a 2+ by buying them the simulacrum and bumping their squad size. Not as good as the index where they can shoot twice, but they would be very reliable with a canoness supporting them.
BSS Squads with 15 bodies. Having them walk up the field and shoot all their bolters on a 2+ would be a solid fire base. It does have it's issues however with it being a very big target and they are still only bolters for the most part.
Dominion squads with 4 meltas. Their limitation comes in that current tactics for them would it hard for them to get to a 2+ to trigger AoF. Buying an additional body for that simulacrum is something hard to do.
- Double pile in diff 5
Good for characters. Not as good as the index AoF where you fight in before the turn even happens, but much more reliable. Definately good for Bloody Roses that got charged or charged themselves. It would make their conviction bonus, and acts of faith available, more precious.
Since repentias have no sergeants and cannot get simulacrum, they would only get this on a 4+ (ebon chalice 3+) so a dialogue accompanying them would suddently be a good option.
- Pass morale
No changes to seraphims and characters don't care. It would however mean that we could start getting away from MSU. Losing some models would you 15 BSS squad wouldnt mean the rest runs away if you roll that 2+.
I'll give my idea a shot down the road and then send my feedback to GW.
Did they indicate howwe could communicate testing data with them so far?
Amishprn86 wrote: So after watching a video of SOB, i am sure it works this way, but will know 100% when the book comes out.
If you wanted to use Vessel of the Emperor’s Will very effectively, you can have a Vanguard of an HQ and 3 elite characters (25-30pts each and some of them are actually good, But at least 1 Dialogus for Re-rolls AoF). And they will have Eben Chalice "Daughters of the Emperor" to have +1 to AOF, now you are +1 with Re-rolls, using
Then the rest of you army can have w/e trait you wan,t, +1 faith point, 6+++, +1A, Overwatch 5+ w/e you want.
Even then, it's not worth 3CP...
I think it is
Sorry for so many posts in a row but:
For 3CP, the bonus is worse than what space marines get for bringing a chapter master, a stratagem that costs 3CP also but lasts the entire game. Compare spending 3CP per turn trying to maintain Vessels and the +1 to...just HAVING Kayvann Shrike. Shrike wins in 99% of cases. Combining with a Canonesses reroll does give you 2+ rerollable on most shots, but even then...are our shooting weapons that can afford to stand within 6" of a Canoness really worth it? You could take a Knight Crusader/Castellant or an Allied detachment of Guard tanks or Custodes bikers or even an Ultramarine block and get a lot more out of your CP than Vessels. In fact, in a lot of games that CP would be better spent rerolling Celestine's 'The Passion' roll.
Vessels-ing stuff to give out what meager boosts acts of faith offer is pretty much our best option most of the time but...honestly...that says more about how sad of a state we're in than anything.
For me 3CP to give my army a buff is worth it, im not talking about 2-3 units, im talking about 6-7 units, also if gaining that +1 to hit or the +3" will win me the game, then it will always be worth it. SoB are not Custodes, they are not SM, we dont get all those captains, and uber buffs, for us to get them shouldnt be the same style of cost as Custodes/SM. I also play with about 18-20 HB's and 24-30 SB's so yes, being within 6" is easy, especially if im against Orks, Nids, or DG, armies that are moving closer to you every turn. Dont forget, you only need 1 model within the 6" range.
At this point its hard to say what is good and what isnt with all the other point drops from everyone Else, If Necrons become meta, its a completely different game.
Also BSS are suppose to be T3, but in 8th T3 vs T4 isnt that big of a deal like it used to be.
So the single biggest problem I see with this is that you'll probably be playing a Soritas Castle/Primaris gunline style of game(something that is not interesting) in a somewhat less effective manner.(Probably with an even less fun 3++/4++ Army)
I already do that now, i have 130 models on the table.
Tho sometime i play with 3 Shield Captains and take out 30 sisters or so.
Before the Knights came out i play tested it many times in prep for a GT and it did well, for many armies i just ignore some units and went for points, having 8-10 mans in units really helps as you can conga line out easily for auras (I have Diagolus and Canoness for auras).
With most units on cover, 2+ save on t3 100+ models is harder to kill than you think it is, i'm happy for the 6+++ trait, i will test that out the first few games, b.c on 100 models, a 6+++ 16.6 still alive, that 2 entire units left
And i only relayed on Aof for Celestine and a , Seraphim, Dom or Ret unit, having 1 dom or ret shoot twice isnt going to be as strong as 4-6 units gaining +1 to hit IMO, 8 models shooting twice (so an extra 4 HB or SB's), or 40 models adding +1 to hit.
Im very optimistic over all, other than Celestine being Nerfed... IDK what i want to do with her now, i might not take Geminis at all and treat her as an over priced Smash Captain and save 90pts for more models.
I'll play test it starting Next week, but i have a local tournament coming up and i dont want to use beta rules for it, so im playing my DE, the next 3-4 games will be with them for sure, but after that is all sistas all the time!
I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
To be fair, she's probably gone from being overpowered in 7th to great value in 8th, to now just being "about right." Considering she was one of three or four units in our army that punched above their weight (and every codex has them), I think people are just reeling from her no longer being great value and instead just being serviceable. I don't think she's weaker than she should be, I think she's probably quite balanced now. But nerfs to her and several other of our key units, without really receiving any useful buffs, is going to lower the overall power level of our army.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Before she was a tank, now they can kill the geminis and they dont came back easily. She is just as she was in 5th times, a mosquito to get in the way, she isnt strong enough to tie up units, she cant go off alone any more and be effective.
She will be good still, just not that center piece as she was, and i missed that survivability she had. In many ways she is more like a Shield Captain now.
Yeah i'd say she is a shield cap on dawneagle equivalent, sure she will have more "wounds" but at T3 many things will wound her on 2+/3+ compare to 4+/5+ on the shield captains on dawneagles.
I;d rather her str with the sword go down to S5 (so +2) and keep some of the survivability than be Str 7.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Before she was a tank, now they can kill the geminis and they dont came back easily. She is just as she was in 5th times, a mosquito to get in the way, she isnt strong enough to tie up units, she cant go off alone any more and be effective.
She will be good still, just not that center piece as she was, and i missed that survivability she had. In many ways she is more like a Shield Captain now.
Yeah i'd say she is a shield cap on dawneagle equivalent, sure she will have more "wounds" but at T3 many things will wound her on 2+/3+ compare to 4+/5+ on the shield captains on dawneagles.
I;d rather her str with the sword go down to S5 (so +2) and keep some of the survivability than be Str 7.
I like Celestine getting weaker. I hate it, when something is an auto-take. Especially named characters. It's so stupid that every sister army has celestine in it. Every single one! Balancing out Celestine is the right thing to do. Now the army just needs options that make it viable to run the army without her and be fun and viable.
So while playtesting I think it would be very important to play without Celestine too. What is the army missing without her? Is the army playble? If not give your suggestion! I'd hate it if when the codex comes out there is only one way to play sisters, Celestine + other stuff.
Mmmpi wrote: For those of you who've seen the leak.
Do seripham get a +1 to shield of faith, or is their shield of faith a 5+?
If it's the former they might do well as a screen near front of the armored wedge.
It is worded "improve the shield of faith invuls by 1 to a maximum of 3+"
So that's Angelic Visage, and it stacks with Celestine's aura, right? A pack of Seraphim + C is 3+/4++? That doesn't seem too bad... mine often get charged by stuff that would be foiled by that to a degree (Helbrutes they don't finish, etc.)
I want to play with her tho, her is my favorite character, why would i want to play without my favorite character?
If every SM had a named character is that really a bad think? I dont think so, as long as there are more than 1 name character players are playing with (balanced them out i mean), we only have 1 named character, would we not take it?
Every DE play have Urien for Coven as well.
Its fun to play with a character with story, its more fun for the players to have your hero on the table compare to a no named general.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Before she was a tank, now they can kill the geminis and they dont came back easily. She is just as she was in 5th times, a mosquito to get in the way, she isnt strong enough to tie up units, she cant go off alone any more and be effective.
She will be good still, just not that center piece as she was, and i missed that survivability she had. In many ways she is more like a Shield Captain now.
Yeah i'd say she is a shield cap on dawneagle equivalent, sure she will have more "wounds" but at T3 many things will wound her on 2+/3+ compare to 4+/5+ on the shield captains on dawneagles.
I;d rather her str with the sword go down to S5 (so +2) and keep some of the survivability than be Str 7.
I like Celestine getting weaker. I hate it, when something is an auto-take. Especially named characters. It's so stupid that every sister army has celestine in it. Every single one! Balancing out Celestine is the right thing to do. Now the army just needs options that make it viable to run the army without her and be fun and viable.
So while playtesting I think it would be very important to play without Celestine too. What is the army missing without her? Is the army playble? If not give your suggestion! I'd hate it if when the codex comes out there is only one way to play sisters, Celestine + other stuff.
No. Celestine has been in every Sisters of Battle list I've ever played. She will be in every Sisters list I play for the rest of my life. I'd rather quit 40k than leave her behind.
I don't need her to be what she was at her best, I played her when she was 135pts and died to harsh language. I just want her to be unique and interesting, which she is not right now.
Also, totally unrelated to the quoted comment:
Vessels of the Emperor's Will on +1 to hit(the clear best use of the ability) costs 3CP(6" range), is an 8% boost over a standard Chapter Master reroll assuming you have a Canoness and no -1s to hit. (It's 3% worse at -1), and can only be used once per turn.
Space Marine's 'Chapter Masters' stratagem (6" range) Costs 3CP and is only 8% worse(or several percent better against Eldar Flyers) than a BEST CASE usage of Vessels of the Emperor's Will. That stratagem lasts the entire game. And literally no one anywhere uses it.
Even accounting for the fact that Vessels can target different characters AND the fact that it can spread other bonuses(paltry as they are. The Passion is almost impossible to use with this for about 2 pages worth of reasons I won't get into right now) it is STILL weaker than a 3CP stratagem, in an army better suited to take advantage of that stratagem, that no one ever bothers to use.
Oh YEAH, I actually totally forgot, Vessels is only active for one PHASE. The chapter master reroll buff is active 100% of the time in both turns! Man AoFs suck.
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deviantduck wrote: I still don't agree with calling her an overpriced Smash Captain. They still have to kill her twice. Last I checked Smash Cap had 5 wounds, not 12. She's still really good for 160 points of beat down that doesn't require any CP to excel. It's the same tasty beer we've been drinking for almost 2 years. They just watered it down a little.
Smash Captains are T4 and will have a 3++ bout half the time. That means they're likely about as durable as Celestine's poor T3 body and 3 extra wounds. Her damage output is also not not that much better than a Smash Captain's, especially against T8. Also, Smash Captains don't NEED stratagems to excel relative to Celestine, they have stratagems they can use TO excel relative to Celestine.
Even if you're okay with her price point, I would still argue that it's hard to be okay with how dull her rules are now. I love her, and I'll take her forever, but boy are we going through a rough patch at the moment.
It's more like they traded out the Old Milwaukee we had in 6th for a Miller Lite, tbh.
Amishprn86 wrote: I want to play with her tho, her is my favorite character, why would i want to play without my favorite character?
If every SM had a named character is that really a bad think? I dont think so, as long as there are more than 1 name character players are playing with (balanced them out i mean), we only have 1 named character, would we not take it?
Every DE play have Urien for Coven as well.
Its fun to play with a character with story, its more fun for the players to have your hero on the table compare to a no named general.
I'm not saying "make her unplayable". All I'm saying is "make her balanced" for the army. So that YOU can play her in every sister army and have fun while not EVERYONE HAS to play her, else the army fails.
There is a huge difference. I for one would like to play with and without Celestine.
Making Celestine mandatory for the army to work is really bad design. (Just like any other character in any other army.)
Amishprn86 wrote: I want to play with her tho, her is my favorite character, why would i want to play without my favorite character?
If every SM had a named character is that really a bad think? I dont think so, as long as there are more than 1 name character players are playing with (balanced them out i mean), we only have 1 named character, would we not take it?
Every DE play have Urien for Coven as well.
Its fun to play with a character with story, its more fun for the players to have your hero on the table compare to a no named general.
I'm not saying "make her unplayable". All I'm saying is "make her balanced" for the army. So that YOU can play her in every sister army and have fun while not EVERYONE HAS to play her, else the army fails.
There is a huge difference. I for one would like to play with and without Celestine.
Making Celestine mandatory for the army to work is really bad design. (Just like any other character in any other army.)
It might have helped if they had been bothered to make ANY other Sisters named character model and not just said - "meh use priests" - we already have Canoness V as a model - I donlt see why they did not bother to give her rules.
It all smacks of lazy phoned in work before they could go do something more interesting.
Celestine was fantastic (but needed to be) - if they had given mroe stuff to the rest of the army, hammering her with nerfs would have made sense but they only did one half of the job.
It might have helped if they had been bothered to make ANY other Sisters named character model and not just said - "meh use priests" - we already have Canoness V as a model - I donlt see why they did not bother to give her rules.
It all smacks of lazy phoned in work before they could go do something more interesting.
Celestine was fantastic (but needed to be) - if they had given mroe stuff to the rest of the army, hammering her with nerfs would have made sense but they only did one half of the job.
I assume the Gemini can;t get relics?
As I said:
Weidekuh wrote:
I like Celestine getting weaker. I hate it, when something is an auto-take. Especially named characters. It's so stupid that every sister army has celestine in it. Every single one! Balancing out Celestine is the right thing to do. Now the army just needs options that make it viable to run the army without her and be fun and viable.
So while playtesting I think it would be very important to play without Celestine too. What is the army missing without her? Is the army playble? If not give your suggestion! I'd hate it if when the codex comes out there is only one way to play sisters, Celestine + other stuff.
It might have helped if they had been bothered to make ANY other Sisters named character model and not just said - "meh use priests" - we already have Canoness V as a model - I donlt see why they did not bother to give her rules.
That wouldn't help much either. I don't like named characters for example. I prefer my own characters with their own stories, motivations and combat styles rather than premade characters who are 1 in the frigging big galaxy. Having any of them show up all the time is just breaking suspension of disbelief.
If named characters are required to do well it's bad design. Doesn't matter if there's 1 or 10 to choose from.
Weidekuh wrote: So while playtesting I think it would be very important to play without Celestine too. What is the army missing without her?
The jump canoness, as has been stated to GW many many times since the WD dex.
56 points base going by GWs own pricing conventions. Even with only modest wargear options their existence would likely relegate the current Celestine to higher points games where her stackable aura would be enough of an asset to offset her high cost.
So, whether she's too weak or just right, what do we do with her? Drop her or work her up a flank with her WL trait aura making Seraphim harder to crack? Build her a nest of transports T1 to help them weather the alpha? Stick her in a block of troops and count on stratagems to make them hit harder? Counterstrike unit? Trade her for Canoness auras running out in Immolators?
MacPhail wrote: So, whether she's too weak or just right, what do we do with her?
Hide her behind the seraphim and advance her/them with other forward units.
With just the dominions the sisters are pretty critically short on early impact so i'm guessing early playstyles are either going to be horde'o'casualties, or a mechanised/seraphim blob supported by a retributor/exorcist blob.
This codex has me feeling deflated. I'm far more excited about my Slaanesh than my Sororitas.
My army is an Order of the Argent Shroud minor order. It is also apparent to me that faith point's don't actually do anything. So let me look at my options:
My army trait gives me Faith Points.
Celestine's WT gives me Faith Points.
I like to run infantry spam, meaning I have lots of extra Faith Points.
This leaves me in the awkward position of having to do lots of book keeping that doesn't mean anything at all. I could probably forget most of the Acts of Faith and still be within 5-10% of how I would do with them. My entire army is built around a mechanic that doesn't actually do anything. Feels bad man.
It might have helped if they had been bothered to make ANY other Sisters named character model and not just said - "meh use priests" - we already have Canoness V as a model - I donlt see why they did not bother to give her rules.
There's a named character priest (who used to exist then didn't and now does again)
There's two more named characters as part of blackstone
It might have helped if they had been bothered to make ANY other Sisters named character model and not just said - "meh use priests" - we already have Canoness V as a model - I donlt see why they did not bother to give her rules.
That wouldn't help much either. I don't like named characters for example. I prefer my own characters with their own stories, motivations and combat styles rather than premade characters who are 1 in the frigging big galaxy. Having any of them show up all the time is just breaking suspension of disbelief.
If named characters are required to do well it's bad design. Doesn't matter if there's 1 or 10 to choose from.
I understand the concept of breaking the suspension of disbelief, and would get behind it if I really thought that this was GW's purpose. As much as I love Celestine, my wish is that NO named character be an auto-take.
However, thats not what they are doing this for. My suspension of disbelief is broken by the fact that to be competitive, I need to:
1. Take non-SOB priests
2. Need to "soup" in order to be a real fighting force.
3. Now they are 'encouraging' units from different Orders to all be mixed into my fighting force? What military organization would ever do this?
I want to play a wargame in the 40k universe - or at least have the feeling that I am. We keep getting further and further away from that to where it is becoming impossible for me to suspend my disbelief anymore.
I would even just like playing a game with my single order of sisters, be competitive and have fun.
It might have helped if they had been bothered to make ANY other Sisters named character model and not just said - "meh use priests" - we already have Canoness V as a model - I donlt see why they did not bother to give her rules.
There's a named character priest (who used to exist then didn't and now does again)
There's two more named characters as part of blackstone
How many do you want exactly
How many of those three are SISTERS of Battle? Oh yeah none.
The current situtaion is like have a Space Wolves Codex with Ragnar and 3 Ultramarine characters and saying yeah thats all good.
Unit1126PLL wrote: My army is an Order of the Argent Shroud minor order.
Is anyone thinking they'll run multiple Orders under these rules? Are any two Convictions worth considering? I'm sure most of us are bound by paint scheme in terms of running multiple Orders.
MacPhail wrote: So, whether she's too weak or just right, what do we do with her? Drop her or work her up a flank with her WL trait aura making Seraphim harder to crack? Build her a nest of transports T1 to help them weather the alpha? Stick her in a block of troops and count on stratagems to make them hit harder? Counterstrike unit? Trade her for Canoness auras running out in Immolators?
Do we think its worth having Celestains to drop wounds onto for her in case of snipers and similar?
Unit1126PLL wrote: My army is an Order of the Argent Shroud minor order.
Is anyone thinking they'll run multiple Orders under these rules? Are any two Convictions worth considering? I'm sure most of us are bound by paint scheme in terms of running multiple Orders.
I'm considering it. I have enough sisters to do a decent sized force for multiple convents. I'd likely go with the same paint scheme, but each detachment would have a different color shoulder pad.
MacPhail wrote: I missed that the Brazier of Holy Flame was back... Deny on 2d6 within 6"... yes please! Can anyone confirm this?
It is what has been said in the video reviews.
All the eggs in one basket, but as a support canoness for an exorcist/retributor blob it's a fairly deny-heavy basket. Half a dozen attempts easily, albeit with a 24" range.
How many of those three are SISTERS of Battle? Oh yeah none.
The current situtaion is like have a Space Wolves Codex with Ragnar and 3 Ultramarine characters and saying yeah thats all good.
I don't get it, sisters have always had inquisitorial warband style models in their lists, since second edition, that you can't stuff every body into power armor is not anything new.
How many of those three are SISTERS of Battle? Oh yeah none. The current situtaion is like have a Space Wolves Codex with Ragnar and 3 Ultramarine characters and saying yeah thats all good.
I don't get it, sisters have always had inquisitorial warband style models in their lists, since second edition, that you can't stuff every body into power armor is not anything new.
It's the same problem as saying "I want there to be more Iron Hands characters" and then someone coming along and saying "You have Tigurus and Calgar!" Like yeah they've been in the same codex since forever but that's not what people mean.
How many of those three are SISTERS of Battle? Oh yeah none.
The current situtaion is like have a Space Wolves Codex with Ragnar and 3 Ultramarine characters and saying yeah thats all good.
I don't get it, sisters have always had inquisitorial warband style models in their lists, since second edition, that you can't stuff every body into power armor is not anything new.
Yeah and we used to have other Sisters characters - even a secnd one briefly in 7th edition that GW discarded or forgot or whatever.
Priests are not part of an Order and do not benefit from their Order tactics and in a specifically named SISTERS OF BATTLE codex you would think that there would be more Sisters named characters than Priests.
Priests are not part of an Order and do not benefit from their Order tactics and in a specifically named SISTERS OF BATTLEADEPTUS MINISTORUM codex you would think that there would be more Sisters named characters than Priests.
Priests are not part of an Order and do not benefit from their Order tactics and in a specifically named SISTERS OF BATTLEADEPTUS MINISTORUM codex you would think that there would be more Sisters named characters than Priests.
Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
You do know Priests appear in another Imperial Codex right - Astra Militarium - now imagine if that Codex just had Yarrick and two priests - would that fly??????
IF it was called Codex Adeptus Ministorium you would have a point but its not.
Now is that a headline you ever thought you’d see on this website? Chapter Approved 2018 would be exciting enough if all it had was a tonne of rules for matched, open and narrative play – but it also contains the beta version of Codex: Adepta Sororitas
Mr Morden wrote: Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
Codex Sisters of Battle - the first one - was 50% ministorum. It wasn't until codex WH that the priesthood was scaled down to make space for the inquisition, but they've always been part of what made the sisters more than just T3 marines with half of their units missing.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
Codex Sisters of Battle - the first one - was 50% ministorum. It wasn't until codex WH that the priesthood was scaled down to make space for the inquisition, but they've always been part of what made the sisters more than just T3 marines with half of their units missing.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
Codex Sisters of Battle - the first one - was 50% ministorum. It wasn't until codex WH that the priesthood was scaled down to make space for the inquisition, but they've always been part of what made the sisters more than just T3 marines with half of their units missing.
Perhaps it is time to have actual Adepta Sororitas units, then?
If the Adepta Sororitas is only "t3 marines with half their units missing" then the problem is that they have half their units missing, not that Adeptus Ministorum isn't here. The Adeptus Ministorum is more different from the Adepta Sororitas than the Blood Angels are from the Black Templars or Space Wolves. Think about that for a moment.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
Codex Sisters of Battle - the first one - was 50% ministorum. It wasn't until codex WH that the priesthood was scaled down to make space for the inquisition, but they've always been part of what made the sisters more than just T3 marines with half of their units missing.
Now that they've stripped out the inquisition for their own codex, still like half of the actual choices in the book aren't sisters, they're various eclioarchy (sp) stuff
Because of the chapterhouse legal precedent, they can't release rules before the model is available or else they lose some of the rights to those models, so expecting a brick of new stuff in a beta codex before the models come out is silly
I expect that the sisters basic box will be sisters/dominions/celestians and the seraphim box to contain at least one new choice
I don't expect any named or special characters at all, unless absolutely required to round out the book, they aren't a popular army and there's a lot of back work to a character model that could be used on something that would sell better.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
Codex Sisters of Battle - the first one - was 50% ministorum. It wasn't until codex WH that the priesthood was scaled down to make space for the inquisition, but they've always been part of what made the sisters more than just T3 marines with half of their units missing.
Perhaps it is time to have actual Adepta Sororitas units, then?
If the Adepta Sororitas is only "t3 marines with half their units missing" then the problem is that they have half their units missing, not that Adeptus Ministorum isn't here. The Adeptus Ministorum is more different from the Adepta Sororitas than the Blood Angels are from the Black Templars or Space Wolves. Think about that for a moment.
Guardsmen bring orgyns and ratlings too, but you don't see them with their own book
Sisters are always going to be a mishmash unless their popularity dramatically increases.
The game allows countsas, get creative if you want everything to be a sister
Mr Morden wrote: Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
Codex Sisters of Battle - the first one - was 50% ministorum. It wasn't until codex WH that the priesthood was scaled down to make space for the inquisition, but they've always been part of what made the sisters more than just T3 marines with half of their units missing.
Now that they've stripped out the inquisition for their own codex, still like half of the actual choices in the book aren't sisters, they're various eclioarchy (sp) stuff
Because of the chapterhouse legal precedent, they can't release rules before the model is available or else they lose some of the rights to those models, so expecting a brick of new stuff in a beta codex before the models come out is silly
I expect that the sisters basic box will be sisters/dominions/celestians and the seraphim box to contain at least one new choice
I don't expect any named or special characters at all, unless absolutely required to round out the book, they aren't a popular army and there's a lot of back work to a character model that could be used on something that would sell better.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh ffs
ITS Codex: Adepta Sororitas - thats the Sisters NOT the fething Church as a whole. The fact that they decided to cram other elements of the Ministorium into the Codex is just because.
Codex Sisters of Battle - the first one - was 50% ministorum. It wasn't until codex WH that the priesthood was scaled down to make space for the inquisition, but they've always been part of what made the sisters more than just T3 marines with half of their units missing.
Perhaps it is time to have actual Adepta Sororitas units, then?
If the Adepta Sororitas is only "t3 marines with half their units missing" then the problem is that they have half their units missing, not that Adeptus Ministorum isn't here. The Adeptus Ministorum is more different from the Adepta Sororitas than the Blood Angels are from the Black Templars or Space Wolves. Think about that for a moment.
Guardsmen bring orgyns and ratlings too, but you don't see them with their own book
Sisters are always going to be a mishmash unless their popularity dramatically increases.
Please read the actual responses....and consider not trolling ths thread?
Having a proper dex and a range of plastic models will give them the chance to be bought. Bit like Ad Mech - or do you feel that they shouldn't have been made as they were not popular (when they didnlt have a model)
Having a proper dex and a range of plastic models will give them the chance to be bought. Bit like Ad Mech - or do you feel that they shouldn't have been made as they were not popular (when they didnlt have a model)
Lol I had one of the biggest admech armies in the country up to ~5th edition, there was plenty of admech.
Were they all counts-as armies using something elses codex because they didn't have an official rulebook? absolutely, but it didn't stop anyone from having fun.
If you want heavy armored sisters, ally with grey knights, take a unit of paladins and get some raging heroes big armored sisters
If you want some big melee sisters, ally with guard and take some counts-as ogryns and conscripts
There is a universe of possibilities out there if you can get over the hang up of the data sheet not saying "sisters" Thats why 40k is fun.
Having a proper dex and a range of plastic models will give them the chance to be bought. Bit like Ad Mech - or do you feel that they shouldn't have been made as they were not popular (when they didnlt have a model)
Lol I had one of the biggest admech armies in the country up to ~5th edition, there was plenty of admech.
Were they all counts-as armies using something elses codex because they didn't have an official rulebook? absolutely, but it didn't stop anyone from having fun.
If you want heavy armored sisters, ally with grey knights, take a unit of paladins and get some raging heroes big armored sisters
If you want some big melee sisters, ally with guard and take some counts-as ogryns and conscripts
There is a universe of possibilities out there if you can get over the hang up of the data sheet not saying "sisters" Thats why 40k is fun.
Lemme put this heavily armoured Sister/GK in my detach- oh wait you can't anymore. Now I have to bring a whole load of other GK, and not use their psychic powers, just to field one unit.
Come on, man. I've never ignored anyone else on this forum before, not even people I disagree with heavily, but you're so blatantly trolling it's obvious even to me.
Lemme put this heavily armoured Sister/GK in my detach- oh wait you can't anymore. Now I have to bring a whole load of other GK, and not use their psychic powers, just to field one unit.
Lemme put this heavily armoured Sister/GK in my detach- oh wait you can't anymore. Now I have to bring a whole load of other GK, and not use their psychic powers, just to field one unit.
Hold on, let me add this auxiliary support detachment to my ar- oh wait I can't because I've already used my 3 detachments at 2k.
Good try, though.
EDIT: At this point, it's safe to determine 'es a troll, and ignore him.
Yeah, you can keep coming up with excuses why you can't use a solution to your problems almost as long as I can keep pointing out that they have solutions.
Your answer is universally "I dont want to"
not "I can't"
Grundz wrote: There is a universe of possibilities out there if you can get over the hang up of the data sheet not saying "sisters" Thats why 40k is fun.
While this is technically true, you are in the wrong forum thread for tactics regarding Saint Eldrad and her bands of shining seraphim.
Since AoFs are going to be fickle, they should be nice when they happen, but not essential. How about this for an army core that benefits from but doesn't rely on AoFs:
Run a Valorous Heart Brigade. Mount six BSS in three Rhinos. Add an Immolator with support characters. Everyone has heavy flamer and melta at their new price. Tanks advance, pop smoke, and enjoy Celestine's aura. Build a Rhino fort and disembark. Hopefully you are now midfield smothering 1-2 objectives with 30 bodies with 3+/5+/FNP, LOS and charge screening from the Rhinos, rerolls, a good chance of splashing Divine Guidance to all of them, meltas for AT, flamers for overwatch, and the option for Holy Trinity if it matters.
Since AoFs are going to be fickle, they should be nice when they happen, but not essential. How about this for an army core that benefits from but doesn't rely on AoFs:
Run a Valorous Heart Brigade. Mount six BSS in three Rhinos. Add an Immolator with support characters. Everyone has heavy flamer and melta at their new price. Tanks advance, pop smoke, and enjoy Celestine's aura. Build a Rhino fort and disembark. Hopefully you are now midfield smothering 1-2 objectives with 30 bodies with 3+/5+/FNP, LOS and charge screening from the Rhinos, rerolls, a good chance of splashing Divine Guidance to all of them, meltas for AT, flamers for overwatch, and the option for Holy Trinity if it matters.
I'm thinking that the best option for the Holy Trinity is a 6-strong unit of Retributors with 4 Heavy Flamers, a Combi-Melta for the Sister Superior and the 'extra' bolter Retributor to go cruising around in an Immolator with Immolation Cannon.
Since they can disembark 9" and burn down a target within 8" (17" "range") with 4d6 autohits wounding Marines on 2's and Knights on 4's, backed up by a Melta shot and a bolter shooting in Rapid Fire range that would mean 7 or 8 dead Marines not even counting the Immolation Cannon.
Of course, the one downside is points, as this combo comes in just slightly under the cost of two Exorcists.
Right now I see primary Sisters working one of two ways (this is going off ITC guidelines for primary faction)
1: A 4++ Armor wall backed by something to bail you out of combat. Kind of unappealing with clown bikes that don't really care about your invaluable save.
2: A battalion backed by 2 Canonesses, one with the relic power sword, one with the deny relic (if needed) along side battle sisters with storm bolters, 1-2 max Seraphim squads with Hand Flamers, and 1-2 units of Storm Bolter Doms. All of who are there to support the rest of your imperial soup.
Neither build relys or needs our one cool mechanic (faith) to function.
If you just want to ally option 2 really isn't bad for any imp list. Lots of denys and 5 fairly cheap CP.
I'm really hoping GWFAQ's the beta book as we go prior to release.
The point of the beta is for GW to show the direction they are going and for us to play test if its to strong or weak.
They will for sure do some minor changes, but dont have you hopes up for majors ones.
The AOF system will most likely stay the same, but it will easily be tweaked, maybe 4+ to cast instead of 5+, maybe +6" movement instead of +3" movement (tho in their eyes the think sisters with large movement is scary, no joke, there was an interview with one of the play testers and he said that) Or instead of +1 to hit, maybe it can be Auto hit.
We already are very tight on points, so i dont see much point changes.
The BIGGEST things we need to make sure GW knows is, the AoF needs to be slightly better and some units like Exorcist just dont fundamentally work and needs something to make sure they have a better avager (B.c its not fun to have a D6 into a D6, WAY to random to relay on).
I'd even be OK if GW scrapped all the Acts of Faith as it's own separate thing and instead rolled them into being Stratagems, but at a reduced cost.
Everyone else gets to Fight Twice for 3 CP, Sisters can do it for 2 CP.
Bad Moon Orks can Shoot Twice for 2 CP, let Sisters do it for 1 CP.
Auto pass Morale with 1 CP cost instead of the 2 CP everyone else needs.
Etc, etc for the other Acts of Faith.
Their reduced cost would prioritize their use over other Stratagems, but would also keep them from getting too far out of hand, because Cp's are a limited resource.
Have Martyrdom be an army-wide rule to return CP while we're at it.
I would really like to see acts of faith points refresh each turn. In my ideal world you would auto pass and act of faith if you want to spend the points on it but different ones have different values.
That would be a good mechanic that you can scale based on total number of models with that rule and would give you a reason to take lots of sisters models.
Going to compare the previous Act of Faith system to the new one real quick.
Previously, you got a 2+ for the army, a free one for Celestine, and a 4+ for up to 3 imagifiers, for a potential of five per battle round.
Now you get 3+(Sisters/10) points for all battle rounds.
On average, the Acts of Faith would go off on a 3.
On average, the new AoFs go off on a 4.
Assuming you run 100 Sisters, which is almost undoubtedly going to be close to twice what you actually run because of the removal of double-shooting, you would get 13 tests of faith per game (assuming no other sources of faith are taken).
So without any other inputs, in a six round game, the previous system you would have had THIRTY Acts of Faith that go off on a 3 and are strictly stronger (double move, double shoot, etc.), compared to THIRTEEN that go off on a 4.
Not only are the new Acts of Faith significantly worse in function, but you get less than half the number (more realistically less than a third).
Realistically though, the only one that has enough of a game impact to remember that the AoF system exists is Passion, and it goes off on a 5.
So the new system would be best described as less than half the attempts, that go off less than half as often, for less than half of the benefit.
Frowbakk wrote: I'm thinking that the best option for the Holy Trinity is a 6-strong unit of Retributors with 4 Heavy Flamers, a Combi-Melta for the Sister Superior and the 'extra' bolter Retributor to go cruising around in an Immolator with Immolation Cannon.
Since they can disembark 9" and burn down a target within 8" (17" "range") with 4d6 autohits wounding Marines on 2's and Knights on 4's, backed up by a Melta shot and a bolter shooting in Rapid Fire range that would mean 7 or 8 dead Marines not even counting the Immolation Cannon.
Of course, the one downside is points, as this combo comes in just slightly under the cost of two Exorcists.
Trinity becomes absurdly strong when you exceed your basic 10 man sisters squad
Against most targets, 2 meltas and a combiflamer with the 10 man squad + trinity does about 40% more wounds than with 3 meltas (at any toughness) this balloons up to almost twice as many wounds at T8
I'm considering nixing one rhino/repressor and just having one trinity full 15 man sister squad following up the rear, instead of an expensive countercharge unit they can wipe out quite a lot of things with trinity + possibly +1 to hit Its really not expensive in cp or points to hurl 16 average wounds at a target. at ~170pts
They do suffer terribly against units with large numbers of wounds but there should be enough melta rolling around to deal with it.
Also don't forget that you can pick up a melta trooper on a 4+ on any squad, once a turn, so unless units are wiped out they are always fairly dangerous
I've had a couple days to comtemplate the codex and how I'll revamp my approach to the Codex. I'm getting ready for a couple more games (hopefully this weekend). I'm trying to really get down to the actual strengths of the new codex and focus on maximizing them. I think the real strengths now are:
1) Invuln saves- having a solid core of units that will benifit most from good stacking invuln auras. Meaning stacking Celestine and a WL trait Canoness in the middle of Repressors, immos, and Exorcists.
2) Psychic defenses- one of the better selections we have is the ability to make our Deny the Witch into a real 2D6. That plus the strat should make playing against sisters a royal pain for any psycher heavy army.
3) A Counter-attack element- a lot of people are hinting at Repentia. IMO the hidden gem here are Arcos, particularly with the help of the trigger word strat. I think they will be best in small to mid sized wood-chipper squads with Priest backup. Max sized squads are tempting, but you really don't need 81 rerolling S5 attacks on a suicide squad. 45 attacks on the other hand, cheap enough to throw away but strong enough to mulch many units in the game.
Apparently I was insane for trying to test out the units in the Codex last time, so I will include Repressors this time. I agree that it might not be possible to build a solid list using only the Codex.
So my next list is going to be something like:
Brigade + Spearhead. 6+ FNP trait.
3 Exorcists
3 Repressors w/2 HF 3 Dom squads w/ 5 melta
3 Min sized BSS squads w/ 3 SBs 2 Immolators
2x 5 Arco-flagellants
A Priest, a missionary, a Canoness, and Celestine
Faith is not a priority, neither are CPs to be honest. Sisters currently aren't really CP hungry as many of our strats just boost faith anyway. Really just need to be sure I can get Trigger word off a couple times, have some rerolls, and maybe a Deny and Blessed Ammo.
If that doesn't work out, I'll move on to the next idea.
As much fun as it may be to try to find the "best builds" for the Beta Codex or to dream up your favorite "correction" to the Faith Rules in the Beta Codex, that is not what we really need. We need to play the codex we are given and provide solid feedback on what those rules have done to the army.
Don't dismiss units because you theory-hammer them as bad.
Don't ignore Faith because you theory-hammer it as too low in impact, too much trouble to bother, etc.
Play as many aspects of the Beta Codex and then provide feedback on what isn't working and why. Only with such experience backing your feedback will GW pay any attention to your input.
I'm really going to need to scare up some games once I get CA so that I can provide some input. And I'm going to start by taking my unoptimized Index Army and playing it with the Beta Codex to tell how it is different and if it end ups being better, worst, or just different.
Okay, I think I've got a pilot list together. It isn't meant to be super competitive, but to get as many newish units out as possible. I'll be playing a casual game this weekend with the digital BetaDex. I'm not sure of the exact costs yet, but I think I can run something like this at 2k:
Spoiler:
Valorous Heart Brigade (FNP Conviction)
Canoness w/ Inferno Pistol & Relic Blade
Canoness (stock, or w/ Brazier of Eternal Flame... how are these costed?)
Celestine
Exorcist x2
Penitent Engine
Heavy Flamer Retributers
My basic tactics would be to run the Immos in with Dominions, followed by a Rhino with Heavy Flamers and HQs/Elites for support, followed by a wall of infantry, leaving stock BSS to screen the Exos. Celestine and the Seraphim are more support/relief units, probably going in on a soft flank to disrupt the backfield.
Not sure about the cost... could be way over or under. Thoughts and insights welcome.
Mmmpi wrote: Unless the beta changed it, BSS can't have two heavy flamers.
That's two units of ten with a melta and a heavy flamer each... although I think Frowbakk is onto something when he suggests HF Rets as the best target for Holy Trinity.
alextroy wrote: As much fun as it may be to try to find the "best builds" for the Beta Codex or to dream up your favorite "correction" to the Faith Rules in the Beta Codex, that is not what we really need. We need to play the codex we are given and provide solid feedback on what those rules have done to the army.
Don't dismiss units because you theory-hammer them as bad.
Don't ignore Faith because you theory-hammer it as too low in impact, too much trouble to bother, etc.
Play as many aspects of the Beta Codex and then provide feedback on what isn't working and why. Only with such experience backing your feedback will GW pay any attention to your input.
I'm really going to need to scare up some games once I get CA so that I can provide some input. And I'm going to start by taking my unoptimized Index Army and playing it with the Beta Codex to tell how it is different and if it end ups being better, worst, or just different.
It's not theory-hammer.
I've played games, Faith had little to no impact, so I'm not building to maximize it. Right now Faith is like having grenades on my Wych squads, I use it because they have them, it would be silly not to, but it's not a large or important part of the army so I'm not going to try weird or obscure tactics to try to maximize the impact of grenades (or Faith).
Same with larger Sisters squads, they are more survivable, but too slow and don't accomplish much, so I'm going to small squads in transports next.
I played a bunch of games using units from the codex, and was dismissed as insane for not using Repressors (cause they aren't in the codex).
alextroy wrote: As much fun as it may be to try to find the "best builds" for the Beta Codex or to dream up your favorite "correction" to the Faith Rules in the Beta Codex, that is not what we really need. We need to play the codex we are given and provide solid feedback on what those rules have done to the army.
Don't dismiss units because you theory-hammer them as bad.
Don't ignore Faith because you theory-hammer it as too low in impact, too much trouble to bother, etc.
Play as many aspects of the Beta Codex and then provide feedback on what isn't working and why. Only with such experience backing your feedback will GW pay any attention to your input.
I'm really going to need to scare up some games once I get CA so that I can provide some input. And I'm going to start by taking my unoptimized Index Army and playing it with the Beta Codex to tell how it is different and if it end ups being better, worst, or just different.
It's not theory-hammer.
I've played games, Faith had little to no impact, so I'm not building to maximize it. Right now Faith is like having grenades on my Wych squads, I use it because they have them, it would be silly not to, but it's not a large or important part of the army so I'm not going to try weird or obscure tactics to try to maximize the impact of grenades (or Faith).
Same with larger Sisters squads, they are more survivable, but too slow and don't accomplish much, so I'm going to small squads in transports next.
I played a bunch of games using units from the codex, and was dismissed as insane for not using Repressors (cause they aren't in the codex).
Honestly, I'm right behind not using Repressors. If the only thing that makes our Codex work is a FW unit, our Codex doesn't work. I'd rather we give feedback on our Codex units so GW can get them right on their own in the future too.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Do you guys think it is mandatory to mech up with sisters now?
I was looking forward to my Argent Shroud infantry spam list as generating tons of faith...
... but now that I know what faith actually does I'm a lot more hesitant.
I'm leaning toward mechanized, but you should definitely give infantry heavy a shot. I'm not an authority on all things Sisters and we still need to develop a good consensus. It won't hurt to try a few times. I just don't recommend repeatedly bashing your head against a wall if you see something obviously isn't working though. Try something, then move on.
Lammia wrote: Honestly, I'm right behind not using Repressors. If the only thing that makes our Codex work is a FW unit, our Codex doesn't work. I'd rather we give feedback on our Codex units so GW can get them right on their own in the future too.
My regular group is pretty consistently Forge World free, so all of my test games should do this. I'm also going to try to limit allies for a while, although I am working up a little allied Guard force and my Scions have been a mainstay of late.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I've had a couple days to comtemplate the codex and how I'll revamp my approach to the Codex. I'm getting ready for a couple more games (hopefully this weekend). I'm trying to really get down to the actual strengths of the new codex and focus on maximizing them.
Apparently I was insane for trying to test out the units in the Codex last time, so I will include Repressors this time.
If that doesn't work out, I'll move on to the next idea.
This is really what I wanted to see. People buckling down and seeing what the book can do.
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alextroy wrote: As much fun as it may be to try to find the "best builds" for the Beta Codex or to dream up your favorite "correction" to the Faith Rules in the Beta Codex, that is not what we really need. We need to play the codex we are given and provide solid feedback on what those rules have done to the army.
Don't dismiss units because you theory-hammer them as bad.
Don't ignore Faith because you theory-hammer it as too low in impact, too much trouble to bother, etc.
Play as many aspects of the Beta Codex and then provide feedback on what isn't working and why. Only with such experience backing your feedback will GW pay any attention to your input.
I'm really going to need to scare up some games once I get CA so that I can provide some input. And I'm going to start by taking my unoptimized Index Army and playing it with the Beta Codex to tell how it is different and if it end ups being better, worst, or just different.
YES!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote: Honestly, I'm right behind not using Repressors. If the only thing that makes our Codex work is a FW unit, our Codex doesn't work. I'd rather we give feedback on our Codex units so GW can get them right on their own in the future too.
While I agree with the sentiment that the codex should be good by itself... FW is very mainstream now (and has been for years) and is basically part of the codex. Ignore it if you want, but I'm sure GW didn't. I would think that we'll see either a re-release of the FW kit next year or a plastic version with the launch.
It's not theory-hammer.
I've played games, Faith had little to no impact, so I'm not building to maximize it. Right now Faith is like having grenades on my Wych squads, I use it because they have them, it would be silly not to, but it's not a large or important part of the army so I'm not going to try weird or obscure tactics to try to maximize the impact of grenades (or Faith).
Same with larger Sisters squads, they are more survivable, but too slow and don't accomplish much, so I'm going to small squads in transports next.
I played a bunch of games using units from the codex, and was dismissed as insane for not using Repressors (cause they aren't in the codex).
I think this is by design
GW has gone to a straight up math based balance in 8e and nixed a lot of the fluffier abilities, probably done by a big spreadsheet, by adding in an X factor like faith they need to balance all future releases against it rather than just make it a fluffy, but ultimately nearly useless thing.
I totally agree with "don't build for faith points, don't count on faith points" for this book
With shield of faith affecting vehicles and lots of easy ways to increase the SoF save, its hard to argue with the increased durability that SoB vehicles have.
That said, the same argument can apply to Sisters blobs, especially with a 4++ and FnP with the right conviction. I feel confident that SoB are now hands down the most survivable (T3) infantry in the game.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what size base the penitent engine goes on? Is it a 60mm? Pretty much everything that’s not a penitent engine is on a 25 with the exception of Celestine and the Geminae, correct?
Frowbakk wrote: I'm thinking that the best option for the Holy Trinity is a 6-strong unit of Retributors with 4 Heavy Flamers, a Combi-Melta for the Sister Superior and the 'extra' bolter Retributor to go cruising around in an Immolator with Immolation Cannon.
Since they can disembark 9" and burn down a target within 8" (17" "range") with 4d6 autohits wounding Marines on 2's and Knights on 4's, backed up by a Melta shot and a bolter shooting in Rapid Fire range that would mean 7 or 8 dead Marines not even counting the Immolation Cannon.
Of course, the one downside is points, as this combo comes in just slightly under the cost of two Exorcists.
Trinity becomes absurdly strong when you exceed your basic 10 man sisters squad
Against most targets, 2 meltas and a combiflamer with the 10 man squad + trinity does about 40% more wounds than with 3 meltas (at any toughness) this balloons up to almost twice as many wounds at T8
I'm considering nixing one rhino/repressor and just having one trinity full 15 man sister squad following up the rear, instead of an expensive countercharge unit they can wipe out quite a lot of things with trinity + possibly +1 to hit Its really not expensive in cp or points to hurl 16 average wounds at a target. at ~170pts
They do suffer terribly against units with large numbers of wounds but there should be enough melta rolling around to deal with it.
Also don't forget that you can pick up a melta trooper on a 4+ on any squad, once a turn, so unless units are wiped out they are always fairly dangerous
Mmmpi wrote: Unless the beta changed it, BSS can't have two heavy flamers.
That's two units of ten with a melta and a heavy flamer each... although I think Frowbakk is onto something when he suggests HF Rets as the best target for Holy Trinity.
So, thinking out loud... Ten Retributors for 90 points, Four Heavy Flamers at 56, CombiMelta on the Superior for 15 and in a Rhino for 75 totals out to 236.
1 CP - Holy Trinity would give them +1 to Wound. However, ALSO 1 CP - Faith and Fury lets them re-roll 1's to wound, but only if they have had a successful test for an Act of Faith.
The only AoF useable in the Shooting Phase is Divine Guidance, which goes off on a 4+.
So, rather than a coin-flip, add in a Simulacrum Imperialis for 10 points, be Order of the Ebon Chalice and get that AoF off on a 2+.
Is it clutch enough to drop a Bolter Retributor and have a Dialogus ride along for the re-rollable 2+ AoF (only 1 in 36 chance of failure)? Might as well have a Canoness ride along in another vehicle for the re-roll 1's to hit aura and bring the Dialogus along in her ride rather than boot a Bolter Retributor out of the unit to make space.
So Turn 1, Drive the Rhino 12" +d6" towards your target. Preferably with a lot of other Rhinos/Immolators/Etc to draw any enemy enmity...
Turn 2, Disembark 3", Move 6" (Or what the hell, 9" with Hand of the Emperor going of on a 2+ as well), to get within the 8" range with the Heavy Flamers (which gets the Bolters within double-tap range).
Assuming everything is in range and that Divine Guidance goes off on a 2+, then pop the 1 CP - Faith and Fury to allow re-rolls of 1's to wound, another 1 CP - Holy Trinity for a +1 to Wound.
Hitting on 2's due to Divine Guidance and in the re-roll 1's Aura of a Canoness then quick estimate mathammer (someone else can run the real numbers) means 5 Rapid Firing Bolters hitting on a re-rollable 2+, the Superior's Combi-Melta also dropping all shots on a 3+ with re-rolling 1's (because Holy Trinity says that EVERYTHING in the unit must fire at the same target) and with 4d6 Heavy Flamer auto hits on top.
So 14-ish S5 AP -1 hits, 10-12 S4 AP - hits and an S8 AP -4 hit with +1 to wound and re-roll 1's to wound.
If shooting Marines, that would be 14-ish 2+ re-rollable wounds, saving on a 4+ from the Heavy Flamers (so maybe 7 unsaved wounds), 10 to 12 Bolters wounding on 3's and re-rolling 1's, saving on 3's (so 3 to 4 unsaved wounds) and a Melta shot re-rolling to wound (for a d6 unsaved wounds) meaning 10 or so Dead Marines or 5 Primaris gone.
Against a Knight the Heavy Flamers would wound on a 4+ and re-roll 1's, saved on a 4+ (meaning 4 wounds get through, assuming no 3++ shenanigans), Bolters wound on 5's, re-rolling 1's (so 1 or 2 get past the armor save) and then the Melta shot wounds on a 3+, re-rolling 1's for another probable 2 d6 damage, pick the highest to get through. Perhaps 6 to 8 or more wounds on a Knight, or a few more to T7 Transport give or take.
So, still just under the cost of two Exorcists at 246 points and supported by a Canoness, Dialogus, an Act of Faith and 2 CP.
Who's ready to throw some heretics on the 'barbie?
godswildcard wrote: With shield of faith affecting vehicles and lots of easy ways to increase the SoF save, its hard to argue with the increased durability that SoB vehicles have.
That said, the same argument can apply to Sisters blobs, especially with a 4++ and FnP with the right conviction. I feel confident that SoB are now hands down the most survivable (T3) infantry in the game.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what size base the penitent engine goes on? Is it a 60mm? Pretty much everything that’s not a penitent engine is on a 25 with the exception of Celestine and the Geminae, correct?
Pen engines historically went on a 60
I'm not too sold on sisters shield of faith on the infantry being great, I dont see tremendous masses of ap-4 weapons focus firing t3 infantry over immolators, so while useful over the course of a game it doesn't seem worth it to stack up the banners or anything to really make those invulnerable saves "good" to where your average anti infantry stuff isn't mowing down sisters anymore.
Lammia wrote: Honestly, I'm right behind not using Repressors. If the only thing that makes our Codex work is a FW unit, our Codex doesn't work. I'd rather we give feedback on our Codex units so GW can get them right on their own in the future too.
While I agree with the sentiment that the codex should be good by itself... FW is very mainstream now (and has been for years) and is basically part of the codex. Ignore it if you want, but I'm sure GW didn't. I would think that we'll see either a re-release of the FW kit next year or a plastic version with the launch.
I agree with a lot of what you say, and we should definitely test Repressors with the Army too. I just feel that this is a unique opportunity to set a standard for GW about what we want from our army in future and building it around FW's rule writing is fraught with so many potential problems. If they were a part of this Beta, that would be fine. But as it is, we can only guess how much they're involved with each other.
Basically, we need to be willing to embrace all choices each other make in their testing.
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Mmmpi wrote: For anyone who's seen the leaks: Do sisters have a multiple relic stratagem?
Can anyone confirm if Taddeus and Pious Vorne from Blackstone Fortress made it on to the list of Ministorum units that can be included in a Sororitas detachment?
pretre wrote: FW is very mainstream now (and has been for years) and is basically part of the codex. Ignore it if you want, but I'm sure GW didn't.
I really can't see the designers factoring in a model that they haven't produced for the better part of a decade when it comes to balancing this codex.
dracpanzer wrote: Can anyone confirm if Taddeus and Pious Vorne from Blackstone Fortress made it on to the list of Ministorum units that can be included in a Sororitas detachment?
I can confirm that Taddeus will make it into my Sororitas detachments...somehow.
Mmmpi wrote: Unless the beta changed it, BSS can't have two heavy flamers.
That's two units of ten with a melta and a heavy flamer each... although I think Frowbakk is onto something when he suggests HF Rets as the best target for Holy Trinity.
I was thinking this, too, but str 5 vs str 6 doesn't really change your rolls against many targets. better against IG and Eldar, but not much else.
That's two units of ten with a melta and a heavy flamer each... although I think Frowbakk is onto something when he suggests HF Rets as the best target for Holy Trinity.
I was thinking this, too, but str 5 vs str 6 doesn't really change your rolls against many targets. better against IG and Eldar, but not much else.
holy trinity doesn't increase the strength by 1, it increases the ROLL by one, so a str 5 weapon is rolling the equivalent of a strength 8 weapon vs t4 its deceptively more powerful the bigger the spread gets, you're still wounding a warlord titan on a 5/6 with a bolter, hah.
//edit: speaking of trinity, giving a basic sisters squad a heavy flamer, combi melta and melta appears to be the same points as two melta and a combi flamer, but you gain the +1str -1ap on the flamer
PuppetSoul wrote: Going to compare the previous Act of Faith system to the new one real quick.
Previously, you got a 2+ for the army, a free one for Celestine, and a 4+ for up to 3 imagifiers, for a potential of five per battle round.
Now you get 3+(Sisters/10) points for all battle rounds.
On average, the Acts of Faith would go off on a 3.
On average, the new AoFs go off on a 4.
Assuming you run 100 Sisters, which is almost undoubtedly going to be close to twice what you actually run because of the removal of double-shooting, you would get 13 tests of faith per game (assuming no other sources of faith are taken).
So without any other inputs, in a six round game, the previous system you would have had THIRTY Acts of Faith that go off on a 3 and are strictly stronger (double move, double shoot, etc.), compared to THIRTEEN that go off on a 4.
Not only are the new Acts of Faith significantly worse in function, but you get less than half the number (more realistically less than a third).
Realistically though, the only one that has enough of a game impact to remember that the AoF system exists is Passion, and it goes off on a 5.
So the new system would be best described as less than half the attempts, that go off less than half as often, for less than half of the benefit.
This is some extremely fuzzy back-of-the-envelope mathhammer.
First off, your averaging is off and an imperfect way to compare. You're not even referring to the average and don't take into account the number of 4+ rolls you need, just that there is one. You're actual average roll is 3.5 in the scenario you paint up there. That doesn't mean you get to say that you get "THIRTY Acts of Faith that go off on a 3" though. You get 6 for free and then only 6 more that go off on less than 3. Then 15 that require a 4+.
If you really want to math it out, in a 6-turn game you automatically get 6, average out another 5, and then can average out to an additional 9, so 20 on average. And sure, that's awesome, BUT you had to spend 120 points to make that happen. Also, and quite frankly I'm a little surprised no one is mentioning this, those extra AoF were all dependent on where certain characters were standing on the board whereas the new system is army-wide. This allows for a little more flexibility and keeps you from having to babysit units with characters with minimal offensive output, which could end up wasting some of those potential AoF.
I mean, to give you a scenario, let's say you double shoot with a BSS squad that has an imagifier nearby and then there are no more units in range, but they have to camp an objective. Either you're wasting potential AoF turns by standing still, being in a transport, or spending them on the character itself to hustle her across the board to a spot where she's useful. Or even if the unit doesn't have to camp but you need to move them, they can only go as fast as the imagifier if the army-wide AoF is needed elsewhere, so there are potential turns of wasted AoF there as well. Of course that's assuming you get the 4+ roll each turn, but are you willing to spend a CP so they can double move if not?
It's also a little dishonest of you to say "without any other inputs" since the new system is all about inputs. I mean, you can choose one of the convictions to get an army-wide +1 to the roll for free, and there are several other ways to beef up that roll. But with the old system the roll was what it was and you couldn't manipulate it without spending CP for a re-roll, which you can still do. You also have multiple ways to regenerate faith points or simply add new ones and even a new ability that lets you spread a single AoF to multiple units who are not sisters, something you could not do before. If you play your cards right you actually have a better chance for the abilities to go off on a wider number of units in any given turn than you did in the index.
So yes, under the old system you had the POTENTIAL for more overall in the game, but it wasn't as much of a guarantee as you're making it sound, nor 100% useful every turn, and you're not limited to one army-wide and several small 6" board pockets under the new system. Point is, there have been trade-offs that you're not acknowledging, which ends up painting a much bleaker picture.
I will admit that AoF are not perfect (once per battle round is extremely limiting) and that some of the new abilities themselves are underwhelming in comparison to what we used to get. Plus some of the combos will require careful logistics and strategy and won't come cheap. But the roll mechanic and potential total Acts you can get are hardly the big problem with the beta system.
I will admit that AoF are not perfect (once per battle round is extremely limiting) and that some of the new abilities themselves are underwhelming in comparison to what we used to get. Plus some of the combos will require careful logistics and strategy and won't come cheap. But the roll mechanic and potential total Acts you can get are hardly the big problem with the beta system.
TBH double shoot would be total madness with the +3cp aura stratagem so I see why it had to go
No doubt. In absence of all the additional toys we're getting in the beta the previous AoF made sense, but if those had remained the same and add all the new stuff? Yikes. I mean, I love a good laugher as much as the next guy but would rather earn it through good play instead of overwhelming game mechanics.
That's two units of ten with a melta and a heavy flamer each... although I think Frowbakk is onto something when he suggests HF Rets as the best target for Holy Trinity. I was thinking this, too, but str 5 vs str 6 doesn't really change your rolls against many targets. better against IG and Eldar, but not much else.
holy trinity doesn't increase the strength by 1, it increases the ROLL by one, so a str 5 weapon is rolling the equivalent of a strength 8 weapon vs t4 its deceptively more powerful the bigger the spread gets, you're still wounding a warlord titan on a 5/6 with a bolter, hah.
edit: speaking of trinity, giving a basic sisters squad a heavy flamer, combi melta and melta appears to be the same points as two melta and a combi flamer, but you gain the +1str -1ap on the flamer
Yea I realized that after the fact.+1 to wound is pretty mighty.
Amishprn86 wrote: *snip*
maybe +6" movement instead of +3" movement (tho in their eyes the think sisters with large movement is scary, no joke, there was an interview with one of the play testers and he said that) *snip*
Where is that interview? I'm really interested in reading it!
PuppetSoul wrote: Going to compare the previous Act of Faith system to the new one real quick.
Previously, you got a 2+ for the army, a free one for Celestine, and a 4+ for up to 3 imagifiers, for a potential of five per battle round.
Now you get 3+(Sisters/10) points for all battle rounds.
On average, the Acts of Faith would go off on a 3.
On average, the new AoFs go off on a 4.
Assuming you run 100 Sisters, which is almost undoubtedly going to be close to twice what you actually run because of the removal of double-shooting, you would get 13 tests of faith per game (assuming no other sources of faith are taken).
So without any other inputs, in a six round game, the previous system you would have had THIRTY Acts of Faith that go off on a 3 and are strictly stronger (double move, double shoot, etc.), compared to THIRTEEN that go off on a 4.
Not only are the new Acts of Faith significantly worse in function, but you get less than half the number (more realistically less than a third).
Realistically though, the only one that has enough of a game impact to remember that the AoF system exists is Passion, and it goes off on a 5.
So the new system would be best described as less than half the attempts, that go off less than half as often, for less than half of the benefit.
This is some extremely fuzzy back-of-the-envelope mathhammer.
First off, your averaging is off and an imperfect way to compare. You're not even referring to the average and don't take into account the number of 4+ rolls you need, just that there is one. You're actual average roll is 3.5 in the scenario you paint up there. That doesn't mean you get to say that you get "THIRTY Acts of Faith that go off on a 3" though. You get 6 for free and then only 6 more that go off on less than 3. Then 15 that require a 4+.
If you really want to math it out, in a 6-turn game you automatically get 6, average out another 5, and then can average out to an additional 9, so 20 on average. And sure, that's awesome, BUT you had to spend 120 points to make that happen. Also, and quite frankly I'm a little surprised no one is mentioning this, those extra AoF were all dependent on where certain characters were standing on the board whereas the new system is army-wide. This allows for a little more flexibility and keeps you from having to babysit units with characters with minimal offensive output, which could end up wasting some of those potential AoF.
I mean, to give you a scenario, let's say you double shoot with a BSS squad that has an imagifier nearby and then there are no more units in range, but they have to camp an objective. Either you're wasting potential AoF turns by standing still, being in a transport, or spending them on the character itself to hustle her across the board to a spot where she's useful. Or even if the unit doesn't have to camp but you need to move them, they can only go as fast as the imagifier if the army-wide AoF is needed elsewhere, so there are potential turns of wasted AoF there as well. Of course that's assuming you get the 4+ roll each turn, but are you willing to spend a CP so they can double move if not?
It's also a little dishonest of you to say "without any other inputs" since the new system is all about inputs. I mean, you can choose one of the convictions to get an army-wide +1 to the roll for free, and there are several other ways to beef up that roll. But with the old system the roll was what it was and you couldn't manipulate it without spending CP for a re-roll, which you can still do. You also have multiple ways to regenerate faith points or simply add new ones and even a new ability that lets you spread a single AoF to multiple units who are not sisters, something you could not do before. If you play your cards right you actually have a better chance for the abilities to go off on a wider number of units in any given turn than you did in the index.
So yes, under the old system you had the POTENTIAL for more overall in the game, but it wasn't as much of a guarantee as you're making it sound, nor 100% useful every turn, and you're not limited to one army-wide and several small 6" board pockets under the new system. Point is, there have been trade-offs that you're not acknowledging, which ends up painting a much bleaker picture.
I will admit that AoF are not perfect (once per battle round is extremely limiting) and that some of the new abilities themselves are underwhelming in comparison to what we used to get. Plus some of the combos will require careful logistics and strategy and won't come cheap. But the roll mechanic and potential total Acts you can get are hardly the big problem with the beta system.
Slightly less fuzzy maths, having celestine and 3 imagifiers plus using a cp to reroll the first failed aof test yields about 3.825 successes a turn - 19 passes over 5 turns is achievable with an index list.
Tailoring a beta codex list to match pace with this and assuming all tests are passed on a 2+ will need around 23 faith points - 200 bodies. I guess with 200 sisters you dont need to shoot twice? Such scalability.
On to actual tactics - can anyone confirm unit size/quantity of unit restrictions on geminae? With the passion now activating in the fight phase it is less situational, celestine using the passion and vessel might work well if you can take multiple larger geminae units.
Math is one thing but soft scores are another. Gw have said that the majority of players don't play matched. So it might be an idea to frame some of the feedback in terms of faction fantasy.
It's clear that the AoF system is designed to feel meaningful when you get one but at the same time it needs to be hamstrung because of vessels they can't make them too powerful. It's a simple fact that if vessels exists the AoF system has to be balanced around it and there's not a huge amount of point arguing for more powerful acts while it is a thing.
So, would you prefer more powerful acts and no vessels, or, less powerful acts and vessels? Which would be more forfilling to the faction fantasy?
Slightly less fuzzy maths, having celestine and 3 imagifiers plus using a cp to reroll the first failed aof test yields about 3.825 successes a turn - 19 passes over 5 turns is achievable with an index list.
Tailoring a beta codex list to match pace with this and assuming all tests are passed on a 2+ will need around 23 faith points - 200 bodies. I guess with 200 sisters you dont need to shoot twice? Such scalability.
It sure was achievable, though your point about the CP for a re-roll doesn't really apply here since you can still do that, so it's not really a change from the old system. Also, you were spending a lot of points for that possibility in the index and sometimes you'd come down to the final turns and some of those AoF-generating units were too far from the action to be useful. So you trade off that increased quantity for lower cost, which allows for more flexible list-building, and a mechanic that allows you to more surgically target where you apply them. It's just not something that I would hold up as an example of why the beta system is so awful, just how it's different.
And of course anyone trying to use the beta system to match the index while assuming auto-passing is going to have a rough game. I'm not even sure where you got that from in my comment. I expect most players will start in the neighborhood of 7 to 9 and generate points over the course of the game, but will spam them far less due to decreased utility so they probably won't burn them all.
Creeping Dementia wrote:Gemini are 1-2 per squad, max 1 squad per army... Sorry
Thanks for confirming - shame though.
Spoiler:
Drider wrote:Math is one thing but soft scores are another. Gw have said that the majority of players don't play matched. So it might be an idea to frame some of the feedback in terms of faction fantasy.
It's clear that the AoF system is designed to feel meaningful when you get one but at the same time it needs to be hamstrung because of vessels they can't make them too powerful. It's a simple fact that if vessels exists the AoF system has to be balanced around it and there's not a huge amount of point arguing for more powerful acts while it is a thing.
So, would you prefer more powerful acts and no vessels, or, less powerful acts and vessels? Which would be more forfilling to the faction fantasy?
That would be great, except its not really the case - vessels isnt particularly strong (fight twice maybe, but with what units?), 3cp a turn means your going to use this a couple of times max; is it worth hamstringing your factions unique ability for that? Compare that with guard orders (actually scalable), ynnari soulbursts (op), or any flavour of marine auras - going from strong index to weak codex isnt going to be particularly fulfilling.
How do you see sisters being stronger outside of matched play? Lifting matched play restrictions benefits everyone, but more so if you have access to restricted items like psychic powers or low cp stratagems (i.e. not vessels).
For me vessels is extremely situational. It's very costly, and the benefits are questionable. The only scenarios I've seen where it is 'worth it' is:
A: playing against something with negative hit modifiers and you need to boost your Exorcists hit rolls.
B: you need to mass heal most of your army (tanks), which should be unlikely because decently skilled opponents usually focus down one thing at a time.
I can't see needing the double fight one with vessels, let's be honest, if all your infantry is engaged in CC you've probably already lost.
If Vessels is the thing that is keeping individual acts of Faith from being effective, then I'd be glad to be rid of it. I don't need AoF to be overpowered or anything, but right now with the mechanics we have they're just a footnote of little significance
Ok silly combo time.. order of the bloody rose + priest + passion (via vessels) gives 30 attacks per repressor on the charge against infantry. 6 fire ports can give some holy trinity options. Repressor doms will probably stay at the top of the pile of units carrying the sisters codex.
Drider wrote:Math is one thing but soft scores are another. Gw have said that the majority of players don't play matched. So it might be an idea to frame some of the feedback in terms of faction fantasy.
It's clear that the AoF system is designed to feel meaningful when you get one but at the same time it needs to be hamstrung because of vessels they can't make them too powerful. It's a simple fact that if vessels exists the AoF system has to be balanced around it and there's not a huge amount of point arguing for more powerful acts while it is a thing.
So, would you prefer more powerful acts and no vessels, or, less powerful acts and vessels? Which would be more forfilling to the faction fantasy?
That would be great, except its not really the case - vessels isnt particularly strong (fight twice maybe, but with what units?), 3cp a turn means your going to use this a couple of times max; is it worth hamstringing your factions unique ability for that? Compare that with guard orders (actually scalable), ynnari soulbursts (op), or any flavour of marine auras - going from strong index to weak codex isnt going to be particularly fulfilling.
How do you see sisters being stronger outside of matched play? Lifting matched play restrictions benefits everyone, but more so if you have access to restricted items like psychic powers or low cp stratagems (i.e. not vessels).
I don't think you're getting my point. I'm saying that the reason Index AoFs are gone is specifically because of Vessels. With Index AoFs Vessels would be extremely powerful, Yannari on crack, and the reason we have these massively toned down Acts is so that Vessels can exist and not be overpowered to all hell. It's like GW made the new Faith system, made the stratagems, realized vessels was OP and instead of fixing Vessels they neutered the Acts. While Vessels exists we wont get better better Acts because it will make Vessels to strong, so the only way to legitimately argue for better Acts is to argue for the removal of Vessels and for Faith to be balanced around it not being a thing.
I don't see sisters being any stronger outside of matched play and i don't know where you got that from. i said that "Gw have said that the majority of players don't play matched" and they don't design specifically for matched. So rather than submitting feedback purely from a competitive matched play perspective we also be giving them feedback about the soft scores of the beta codex. Does this feel like playing Sisters? Does the faith system feel rewarding when you get one? Do the chapter tactics make the Order of Our Martyred Lady feel like Martyred Lady? Does Bloody Rose feel like Bloody Rose? etc etc
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Insularum wrote: Ok silly combo time.. order of the bloody rose + priest + passion (via vessels) gives 30 attacks per repressor on the charge against infantry. 6 fire ports can give some holy trinity options. Repressor doms will probably stay at the top of the pile of units carrying the sisters codex.
Vehicles don't get convictions, but my thoughts do keep returning to running multiple smash canonesses, celestine, priest, mistress and (multiple units of) repentia as BR and popping Passion Vessels to make the entire blob fight twice. To me it seems like the only way you're really going to get much bang for your buck out of the faith system.
To my knowledge, convictions and priest bonuses do not apply to vehicles. Units embarked in a vehicle cannot be affected by faith or stratagems so no hjoly trinity options. Expect vessels to be faqed to not apply to vehicles.
Drider wrote:Math is one thing but soft scores are another. Gw have said that the majority of players don't play matched. So it might be an idea to frame some of the feedback in terms of faction fantasy.
It's clear that the AoF system is designed to feel meaningful when you get one but at the same time it needs to be hamstrung because of vessels they can't make them too powerful. It's a simple fact that if vessels exists the AoF system has to be balanced around it and there's not a huge amount of point arguing for more powerful acts while it is a thing.
So, would you prefer more powerful acts and no vessels, or, less powerful acts and vessels? Which would be more forfilling to the faction fantasy?
That would be great, except its not really the case - vessels isnt particularly strong (fight twice maybe, but with what units?), 3cp a turn means your going to use this a couple of times max; is it worth hamstringing your factions unique ability for that? Compare that with guard orders (actually scalable), ynnari soulbursts (op), or any flavour of marine auras - going from strong index to weak codex isnt going to be particularly fulfilling.
How do you see sisters being stronger outside of matched play? Lifting matched play restrictions benefits everyone, but more so if you have access to restricted items like psychic powers or low cp stratagems (i.e. not vessels).
I don't think you're getting my point. I'm saying that the reason Index AoFs are gone is specifically because of Vessels. With Index AoFs Vessels would be extremely powerful, Yannari on crack, and the reason we have these massively toned down Acts is so that Vessels can exist and not be overpowered to all hell. It's like GW made the new Faith system, made the stratagems, realized vessels was OP and instead of fixing Vessels they neutered the Acts. While Vessels exists we wont get better better Acts because it will make Vessels to strong, so the only way to legitimately argue for better Acts is to argue for the removal of Vessels and for Faith to be balanced around it not being a thing.
I don't see sisters being any stronger outside of matched play and i don't know where you got that from.
From what i read and heard from play testers, the reason it changed was b.c they saw every using only Double move and Double shoot and only on Seraphim and Celestine. They didnt want the army to play that way and changed it to reflect that. They wanted you to be able to more aof's for more units.
Now IMO they need to let us cast them more often, all AoF needs a +1 to cast, but it is Beta and we can ask for that.
Infact... Can you imagine if Vessels worked the other way? If it was an AoF that made Strats area buffs, you'd take as many storm bolters as you could and buff your whole army with Blessed Bolts every turn. The effect on the BB strat would be to either tone it down to the point it's no longer useful, or to make it cost a ludicrous amount of command points. Not to mention what would happen to our other half way decent stratagems.
I don't think you're getting my point. I'm saying that the reason Index AoFs are gone is specifically because of Vessels. With Index AoFs Vessels would be extremely powerful, Yannari on crack, and the reason we have these massively toned down Acts is so that Vessels can exist and not be overpowered to all hell. It's like GW made the new Faith system, made the stratagems, realized vessels was OP and instead of fixing Vessels they neutered the Acts. While Vessels exists we wont get better better Acts because it will make Vessels to strong, so the only way to legitimately argue for better Acts is to argue for the removal of Vessels and for Faith to be balanced around it not being a thing.
I don't see sisters being any stronger outside of matched play and i don't know where you got that from. i said that "Gw have said that the majority of players don't play matched" and they don't design specifically for matched. So rather than submitting feedback purely from a competitive matched play perspective we also be giving them feedback about the soft scores of the beta codex. Does this feel like playing Sisters? Does the faith system feel rewarding when you get one? Do the chapter tactics make the Order of Our Martyred Lady feel like Martyred Lady? Does Bloody Rose feel like Bloody Rose? etc etc
I get your point, and to an extent I agree - index aof could do with reigning in as the potential to combo with new abilities is strong. Where I disagree is in the execution, aof has been nerfed so hard as to be inconsequential in most cases - passion is probably the only aof that can impact meaningfully on a game now and yet it still doesnt make sisters stand out as being good at something - so on to your other point, no it doesnt feel like playing sisters as their utility has been reduced - if a faction has no strengths in their unique abilities players who dont want to auto lose are restricted to taking only the strongest units, further detracting from the connection with the faction itself.
How many players will use retributors now that they cannot shoot twice? Same question but on seraphim now that they are not the fastest jump infantry? Will anyone use penitent engines - they are ministorum so cannot use vessels. By nerfing all the units that rely on faction rules only those that are strong by themselves will see any action, so you either play dominions to feel like sisters or bring a bunch of -1T discount space marines.
From what i read and heard from play testers, the reason it changed was b.c they saw every using only Double move and Double shoot and only on Seraphim and Celestine. They didnt want the army to play that way and changed it to reflect that. They wanted you to be able to more aof's for more units.
Now IMO they need to let us cast them more often, all AoF needs a +1 to cast, but it is Beta and we can ask for that.
Edit: Spelling
Yeah, now take that double move/shoot on celestine + 1 unit of seraphim and add vessels and make it double move/shoot on celestine + 3 units of seraphim. Double shoot on 3 units of HB Rets, all your Melta/MM/SB. it's Yinari on crack but without Dark Reapers
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Insularum wrote: [spoiler]
I get your point, and to an extent I agree - index aof could do with reigning in as the potential to combo with new abilities is strong. Where I disagree is in the execution, aof has been nerfed so hard as to be inconsequential in most cases - passion is probably the only aof that can impact meaningfully on a game now and yet it still doesnt make sisters stand out as being good at something - so on to your other point, no it doesnt feel like playing sisters as their utility has been reduced - if a faction has no strengths in their unique abilities players who dont want to auto lose are restricted to taking only the strongest units, further detracting from the connection with the faction itself.
How many players will use retributors now that they cannot shoot twice? Same question but on seraphim now that they are not the fastest jump infantry? Will anyone use penitent engines - they are ministorum so cannot use vessels. By nerfing all the units that rely on faction rules only those that are strong by themselves will see any action, so you either play dominions to feel like sisters or bring a bunch of -1T discount space marines.
Yeah, exactly that. "Aof has been nerfed so hard as to be inconsequential in most cases" it's bad design, we can argue that because it does feel so lack luster it doesn't fulfill the faction fantasy that AoF do not feel rewarding and include that in feedback alongside any mathhammer or "hardscores" feedback because it is equally as valid.
All solid points... I hope we find a way to package this thinking for the designers.
What if the number of AoFs was unlimited overall, but it was one each per turn, and the ease of success was what scaled with your army? With your first detachment, you get one of each per turn, and they're far from automatic. Each additional sisters detachment makes them easier, and you need them to be more reliable because they need to empower more units. Each non sisters detachment makes them harder... built in soup penalty, but you don't care as much because now you have CTs or orders. With a pure Sisters force, they are so reliable you can plan around them, but with a small allied sisters detachment they're more of an occasional perk. Add in a strat to recycle one per turn... does it start to feel scalable and useful and fluffy?
Another issue is that Faith may be too close to command points and stratagems to have it's own identity because every army has the whole points for special rules thing in this edition. it's not uniquely sisters and adding a dice roll to the system to make you feel good when you get a successful roll is little more than a surface level slot machine effect.
Surely there must be a way to make Faith feel like it's own thing, be rewarding to use and not feel like a bad rehash of any other excising system.
Drider wrote: Another issue is that Faith may be too close to command points and stratagems to have it's own identity because every army has the whole points for special rules thing in this edition. it's not uniquely sisters and adding a dice roll to the system to make you feel good when you get a successful roll is little more than a surface level slot machine effect.
Surely there must be a way to make Faith feel like it's own thing, be rewarding to use and not feel like a bad rehash of any other excising system.
I can definitely get behind that sentiment - aof is just a stratagem by another name, and I find it very believable that by design sisters cannot have both good aof and good stratagems. Separating the two will be hard as they are currently indistinguishable (use limited points to activate a time limited boost); the only other in game buff system I can think of would be the space wolves sagas - achieve a goal/test of faith to turn on a permanent modest improvement (whilst rolling all the current aof's into stratagems).
So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...
Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:
I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.
I think you are mixing up the 2? The 3" movement is "Hand of the Emperor" and its an AoF, Vanguard is the free movement before the game starts for Dominion Squads Also AoF dont work on vehicles unless using the 3CP Stratagem, Doms Vanguard does work while they are inside a vehicle and only them.
Repressors are from FW, its up to FW if they want to make it again or not, it has nothing to do with GW.
godswildcard wrote: So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...
Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:
I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.
Any chance GW feels trapped by the Repressor? If the Codex is too strong, the Repressor unleashes an unstoppable army, so they backed off a bit?
Amishprn86 wrote: From what i read and heard from play testers, the reason it changed was b.c they saw every using only Double move and Double shoot and only on Seraphim and Celestine. They didnt want the army to play that way and changed it to reflect that. They wanted you to be able to more aof's for more units.
They just needed to change the moment you activated the act of faith, and to allow it on vehicle. You would have had a lot of double-shooting dominions and double-moving transports that way. Maybe even double-moving penitent engine/close combat troops. Or double fighting close combat too!
They just made the shooting only work on stuff that has a long range or can shoot inside of close combat (pistols), the double move not work on vehicles, and the double fight only work after being charged and surviving. They literally prevented any embarked unit from using acts of faith So of course it was only used on Celestine, Seraphim and HB retributors…
MacPhail wrote: Any chance GW feels trapped by the Repressor? If the Codex is too strong, the Repressor unleashes an unstoppable army, so they backed off a bit?
They made changes to FW stuff in CA, they could have done so here. I doubt that that was the reason for the changes.
MacPhail wrote: Any chance GW feels trapped by the Repressor? If the Codex is too strong, the Repressor unleashes an unstoppable army, so they backed off a bit?
They made changes to FW stuff in CA, they could have done so here. I doubt that that was the reason for the changes.
They are only making minor point changes b.c FW is not able to atm, if FW cant make a model GW isnt going to, they have their own plans
Are mistresses still characters, or did they become squad upgrades like Imagifiers?
If they're characters, using vessel to passion on 27 repentia is gross. Having the option bump them all by 3 in addition to the mistress charge reroll when you need it could be handy.
Rather than putting them in rhinos, I would send them in with a cohort of arcos led by a priest and some penitent engines. Your enemy would have a hard figuring out what to take out.
Also, can pennies still be taken in squads of three? Because if so, that would mean you could fit nine of them in without breaking the rule of three, right?
I just want to see what it could do. I don't have the book and haven't seen a leak that lets me cost it yet, but that will definitely be one of my playtests.
First off, your averaging is off and an imperfect way to compare. You're not even referring to the average and don't take into account the number of 4+ rolls you need, just that there is one. You're actual average roll is 3.5 in the scenario you paint up there. That doesn't mean you get to say that you get "THIRTY Acts of Faith that go off on a 3" though. You get 6 for free and then only 6 more that go off on less than 3. Then 15 that require a 4+.
If you really want to math it out, in a 6-turn game you automatically get 6, average out another 5, and then can average out to an additional 9, so 20 on average. And sure, that's awesome, BUT you had to spend 120 points to make that happen. Also, and quite frankly I'm a little surprised no one is mentioning this, those extra AoF were all dependent on where certain characters were standing on the board whereas the new system is army-wide. This allows for a little more flexibility and keeps you from having to babysit units with characters with minimal offensive output, which could end up wasting some of those potential AoF.
You are calculating the average you will SUCCEED on, not the number you can ATTEMPT. This is important because the new AoF system is throttled around the number you can ATTEMPT.
And comparing 40pt tax to get a 4+ attempt per turn, to 90pt minimum for a single attempt... probably shouldn't go there.
I mean, to give you a scenario, let's say you double shoot with a BSS squad that has an imagifier nearby and then there are no more units in range, but they have to camp an objective. Either you're wasting potential AoF turns by standing still, being in a transport, or spending them on the character itself to hustle her across the board to a spot where she's useful. Or even if the unit doesn't have to camp but you need to move them, they can only go as fast as the imagifier if the army-wide AoF is needed elsewhere, so there are potential turns of wasted AoF there as well. Of course that's assuming you get the 4+ roll each turn, but are you willing to spend a CP so they can double move if not?
I would rather spend a CP to get them to double move than spend a CP to get them to move +3".
It's also a little dishonest of you to say "without any other inputs" since the new system is all about inputs. I mean, you can choose one of the convictions to get an army-wide +1 to the roll for free, and there are several other ways to beef up that roll. But with the old system the roll was what it was and you couldn't manipulate it without spending CP for a re-roll, which you can still do. You also have multiple ways to regenerate faith points or simply add new ones and even a new ability that lets you spread a single AoF to multiple units who are not sisters, something you could not do before. If you play your cards right you actually have a better chance for the abilities to go off on a wider number of units in any given turn than you did in the index.
Adding 1 to AoF rolls costs you a FnP, +1Str/Atk, or 5+ overwatch and virtual morale immunity. The cost of improving the AoF exceeds the value of the AoF.
So yes, under the old system you had the POTENTIAL for more overall in the game, but it wasn't as much of a guarantee as you're making it sound, nor 100% useful every turn, and you're not limited to one army-wide and several small 6" board pockets under the new system. Point is, there have been trade-offs that you're not acknowledging, which ends up painting a much bleaker picture.
I will admit that AoF are not perfect (once per battle round is extremely limiting) and that some of the new abilities themselves are underwhelming in comparison to what we used to get. Plus some of the combos will require careful logistics and strategy and won't come cheap. But the roll mechanic and potential total Acts you can get are hardly the big problem with the beta system.
It really is. If the new acts were guaranteed, then Sisters would trend towards Bloody Rose, with Celestine, Canoness and Repentia balls, with Seraphim deepstriking to clear objectives and charge for 82 S4 equivalent attacks if they succeed on the charge. But they're not.
If the new acts included double shooting, then Sisters would trend towards castling up as Ebon Chalice around splashing double-shooting onto Exorcists and Rets. But they're not.
If the new acts included double moving, then Sisters would trend towards disposable "Silver Bullets" like the Inferno Pistol Seraphim to snipe characters. But they're not.
As for Vessel of the Emperor: if individual Acts can't not suck because they could be splashed to 10+ units, GET RID OF THE SPLASH. Don't render the base mechanic unusuable so that you can implement a stratagem that you will then never use because the mechanic sucks.
deviantduck wrote: Vehicles have orders but can't use the convictions? So valorous heart repressors can get the 6++?
Apparently not - they are happy for some Factions to benefit completely from Chapter tactics but not apparently Marines and def not Sisters as its only Infantry
Given that 3 out of 6 Order Devotions are dedicated to boosting Acts of Faith, which can only be used by Infantry, it's not particularly surprising either.
It would be nice if they followed the AM model and gave vehicles a different ability than Infantry.
GW has shown time and time again that cardboard boxes don't get chapter tactics/convictions.
I think it's dumb that Chimera gets it but a Rhino doesn't. However debating it right now is a waste of time. Hopefully in the future they'll fix it but right now they have shown no desire to.
Anyway I'm thinking our best play (as mentioned by someone above) is deep striking Seraphim and using them to clear a screen for a BA captain. The fatal flaw is that you can only ever 2 it twice a game and that you are relying on a bunch of hand flamers/bolt pistols.
So Priests, Pennies, Repentia, Crusaders, DCA, Arco, Vehicles, and Celestine don't get Convictions, correct? I have a game tonight and I'm trying to get my ducks in a row.
Rynner wrote: Repentia do the rest do not (per my understanding).
Thanks sir.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Next query that I didn't see addressed in the two CA reviews I watched.
AoF's can only be used once a turn, and if you attempt them, the faith point is spent. Got it. But...
Can you attempt mulitple AoFs on the same unit? (assuming they fail)
Ex: Hand of the Emperor. Fails. The Passion. Fails. and burn through all of your FP?
Can you try multiple attempts of the same AoF on the same unit?
Ex: HoE, fails. HoE, fails again. etc.
If an AoF fails on unit 1, can you attempt the same AoF on unit 2?
Ex: HoE fails on retributors. HoE works on Seraphim.
Or, is it each AoF can be attempted once per phase, period. Meaning you could never use more than 6 FP on 6 different units per turn.
You can never use more than 6 FPs per turn. One attempt per power per turn. I don't think there is a restriction on using more than one power on a unit in a turn.
This is why I called your math fuzzy. You can't average Celestine's freebie in the number since you're not actually rolling for it. The average roll was 3.5 plus you get 6 for free, which I said.
PuppetSoul wrote: You are calculating the average you will SUCCEED on, not the number you can ATTEMPT. This is important because the new AoF system is throttled around the number you can ATTEMPT.
And comparing 40pt tax to get a 4+ attempt per turn, to 90pt minimum for a single attempt... probably shouldn't go there.
I calculated the average success because it's a more accurate representation of what you're talking about than the roll number. If you had 30 attempts with an average roll of 3 you would actually have an average of 15 successes, not 20. If you're talking solely about the number of attempts, why did you even bring averages into your original argument?
And it's disingenuous of you to say that it's a "90pt minimum for a single attempt" since that's a byproduct of units you were purchasing anyways as opposed to an additional unit you have to purchase for the sole purpose of gaining attempts. Plus you now have a variety of ways to get additional attempts throughout the game, some for free.
PuppetSoul wrote: I would rather spend a CP to get them to double move than spend a CP to get them to move +3".
Congratulations, but that's more about the quality of the new AoF than it is about how desirable the potential for more is. My point is that having more AoF isn't all that great if you end up having to use them in a way that's not conducive to actually winning the game. Sure, on turn 6 I could double move some sisters so they go 12+ inches and are still out of range from doing anything beneficial. But if the game ends, who cares?
PuppetSoul wrote: Adding 1 to AoF rolls costs you a FnP, +1Str/Atk, or 5+ overwatch and virtual morale immunity. The cost of improving the AoF exceeds the value of the AoF.
That's a misdirect. My point is that there are ways to beef up the AoF roll so you're not locked into the roll number like you were in the previous version. I'm not debating which order has the better ability.
PuppetSoul wrote: It really is. If the new acts were guaranteed, then Sisters would trend towards Bloody Rose, with Celestine, Canoness and Repentia balls, with Seraphim deepstriking to clear objectives and charge for 82 S4 equivalent attacks if they succeed on the charge. But they're not.
It really isn't and you prove that by abandoning your point to talk about the quality of the new AoF, which no one is saying are better. And I'm not sure why you're talking about the new ones being guaranteed in this context since the old ones weren't guaranteed except for Celestine's freebie.
PuppetSoul wrote: If the new acts included double shooting, then Sisters would trend towards castling up as Ebon Chalice around splashing double-shooting onto Exorcists and Rets. But they're not.
If the new acts included double moving, then Sisters would trend towards disposable "Silver Bullets" like the Inferno Pistol Seraphim to snipe characters. But they're not.
And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its butt when it hopped.
PuppetSoul wrote: As for Vessel of the Emperor: if individual Acts can't not suck because they could be splashed to 10+ units, GET RID OF THE SPLASH. Don't render the base mechanic unusuable so that you can implement a stratagem that you will then never use because the mechanic sucks.
The base mechanic is not unusable and does not suck, it just has decreased potential attempts across the course of the game. Though usually by the end of previous games half of that potential was either not being realized or lost due to deaths. You traded that for a system that was more flexible both in list-building and in-game tactics, and where you don't lose a chunk of potential attempts to a lucky round of sniper fire. You can certainly debate whether or not the new ones are worth it (I lean towards not), but the fact that you can't maybe do 30 in a 6 turn game is certainly not the reason why.
godswildcard wrote: So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...
Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:
I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.
They're easy enough to get now though, Shieldwolf minis now makes this fantastic "not-repressor" repressor: http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=171 Or alternatively, you can simply order 3D-printed parts of what FW used to make (topper, guns, and plow) from Shapeways from a couple sellers.
Amishprn86 wrote: I think you are mixing up the 2? The 3" movement is "Hand of the Emperor" and its an AoF, Vanguard is the free movement before the game starts for Dominion Squads
Also AoF dont work on vehicles unless using the 3CP Stratagem, Doms Vanguard does work while they are inside a vehicle and only them.
Repressors are from FW, its up to FW if they want to make it again or not, it has nothing to do with GW.
Haven't some models made the transition from FW to becoming brought into the main GW plastic range in the past though?
Does the sacred banner stratagem grant +1 to only the unit with the simulacrum imperialis or is also a 6" aura for a phase? I've heard it both ways now.
Edit: Nevermind. Found it. It's only on the unit with the banner. Lame.
godswildcard wrote: So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...
Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:
I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.
They're easy enough to get now though, Shieldwolf minis now makes this fantastic "not-repressor" repressor: http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=171 Or alternatively, you can simply order 3D-printed parts of what FW used to make (topper, guns, and plow) from Shapeways from a couple sellers.
Amishprn86 wrote: I think you are mixing up the 2? The 3" movement is "Hand of the Emperor" and its an AoF, Vanguard is the free movement before the game starts for Dominion Squads
Also AoF dont work on vehicles unless using the 3CP Stratagem, Doms Vanguard does work while they are inside a vehicle and only them.
Repressors are from FW, its up to FW if they want to make it again or not, it has nothing to do with GW.
Haven't some models made the transition from FW to becoming brought into the main GW plastic range in the past though?
Only a few, and it was Bc GW wanted them in plastic and wasnt able to pre 2010, AKA Trygon, Tyrant, Custodes, etc...These were models that GW has rules for before FW.
FW only models as far hasnst yet other than the special box of he 30k plastic marines
In regards to Acts of Faith functioning like Command Points:
I like it, theoretically. The execution is just plain awful, but in theory it's cool:
1, nobody else has a similar mechanic, making Sisters play in a unique
2, it allows for, effectively, an army that generates twice as many Command Points without causing soup problems. You can get double flexibility out of Sisters, but you can't give that extra bonus to other armies
3, it allows for neat synergies between the two pools of abilities.
Unfortunately, the execution is just abysmal. What strategems do interact with Acts of Faith are either too weak, problematic, or they just give more Acts of Faith, which would be good except that the acts of faith are all also weak, randomly fail, andquickly get capped by limitations on usage per turn
I hate to be a complainer, but I was contemplating the Sisters of Battle Faction rules and come to the realization that Shield of Faith is really bad.
6+ Invulnerable Save: Outside of the few models that lack a 3+ Save, the Invulnerable Save only has impact with hit with a AP -4 (-5 If in Cover) attack, which are very uncommon and don't generally have very many attacks.
Deny the Witch on 1d6: We can only Deny the Witch when against WC 5 or less powers (are their any less that WC5?), if they roll a 5 and if we get a lucky 6.
Both of these abilities can be enhanced by Aura, Stratagems, and the like, but why should our core faction defensive ability be so bad that is is only useful when it is improved by other abilities?
Definitely something we should all point out in our feedback.
godswildcard wrote: So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...
Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:
I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.
Any chance GW feels trapped by the Repressor? If the Codex is too strong, the Repressor unleashes an unstoppable army, so they backed off a bit?
No, there's no chance of that. The repressor is good, it's not that good. Plus they can just change the point value. Not like they've never repointed forgeworld stuff before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote: TBH I like the idea of super fast sisters the most
They aren't great up close, and all their assault units are fragile
This this, 100000000% this. Make them a shotgun, not a turtle.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rynner wrote: GW has shown time and time again that cardboard boxes don't get chapter tactics/convictions.
I think it's dumb that Chimera gets it but a Rhino doesn't. However debating it right now is a waste of time. Hopefully in the future they'll fix it but right now they have shown no desire to.
Anyway I'm thinking our best play (as mentioned by someone above) is deep striking Seraphim and using them to clear a screen for a BA captain. The fatal flaw is that you can only ever 2 it twice a game and that you are relying on a bunch of hand flamers/bolt pistols.
Our best play is what it has been since 6th: Melta Dominions. No matter what else changes, that always seems to stay the same.
Thing is that none of what sisters do seems to synergise with anything.
Going horde and getting the the invo buff doesnt suit them due to short weapons range, slow and T3. Sisters die so easy to lasguns.
Trying to apply the invo buff to vehicles requires the buff source to be out in the open and the fast transport travelling much slower than what they want to be.
Faith has shown in battle reports to have very little affect in games and quite often forgotten about because of it; so all the Orders that are about gaining and making Faith easier dont really benefit anything.
Its just...weird.
Theyve got some neat toys now and i look forward to playing with them. But its hard to see how theyre going to fit together right now.
I am considering writing in that there should be a mechanic that allows sisters to spend EXTRA faithpoints to modify the rolls for acts (spend 1 for normal roll target, and +1 to the roll for each extra faith point spent for example). This would allow you to build around faith mechanics and give an incentive to use the strats/orders that give extra faith or a bonus to the rolls since you'd spend less faith instead of just bloody rose. I'd even be ok if they increased the target numbers by one each if this happened...
deviantduck wrote: Played my first game with the new dex last night. Holy crap Celestine is slooooow. I don't think she really participated much.
Exactly my experience with her, not sure though if its just having gotten used to her old tool kit she pales in comparison. I had gotten used to her being so much faster than everything else in my army.
deviantduck wrote: Played my first game with the new dex last night. Holy crap Celestine is slooooow. I don't think she really participated much.
Exactly my experience with her, not sure though if its just having gotten used to her old tool kit she pales in comparison. I had gotten used to her being so much faster than everything else in my army.
That 7th wound was huge, too. So many D6 weapons. Her first death last night was to a D6 missile and he rolled a 6. That really stung.
My favorite part of preordering from Games Workshop is that they ship the day before release on super-snail-mail ensuring I won’t get what I preordered until the week after release.
...which is why I usually don’t preorder from them...
ANYWAY, with regards to the new models, how safe are the rhino and Immolator? I’m pondering picking another one up, but I don’t want to have old vehicles in my army if they are just going to redo them within the year.
deviantduck wrote: Played my first game with the new dex last night. Holy crap Celestine is slooooow. I don't think she really participated much.
Exactly my experience with her, not sure though if its just having gotten used to her old tool kit she pales in comparison. I had gotten used to her being so much faster than everything else in my army.
Neither Celestine or Seraphim are a fast strike force anymore. Celestines purpose now is to aura buff your Shield of Faith and act as a Counter-attack unit.
I'm not really sure what the role of Seraphim is, Counter-Attack I guess, but Arcos do that better.
Neither Celestine or Seraphim are a fast strike force anymore. Celestines purpose now is to aura buff your Shield of Faith and act as a Counter-attack unit.
I'm not really sure what the role of Seraphim is, Counter-Attack I guess, but Arcos do that better.
10 girl squad with a pistol, relic pistol, and 4 hand flamers, then use Burning Descent to open holes in chaff units for other, better, armies to take advantage of (namely Smashcaptains).
Neither Celestine or Seraphim are a fast strike force anymore. Celestines purpose now is to aura buff your Shield of Faith and act as a Counter-attack unit.
I'm not really sure what the role of Seraphim is, Counter-Attack I guess, but Arcos do that better.
10 girl squad with a pistol, relic pistol, and 4 hand flamers, then use Burning Descent to open holes in chaff units for other, better, armies to take advantage of (namely Smashcaptains).
Yup. Seraphim went from being a feared scalpel to a sad mop. They're good as a one trick drop in and kill a bunch of T3 stuff. (T4 if you take max bolters, maybe) I probably won't take more than 5 with 2 flamer girls. But if it proves reliable I might take 2x 5 with 2 flamers girls and come down on turn 2 and turn 3. Time will tell.
Looking through the leaks on spiky bits, and it looks like normal eviscerators are totally gone from the army...
My opinion on the book until now had been reasonably optimistic, but missing out the armies signature melee weapon really just make the whole thing look phoned in by writers who just don't really care about faction.
Hoboanarki wrote: Looking through the leaks on spiky bits, and it looks like normal eviscerators are totally gone from the army...
That would be bizarre given that:
a) the only sister who can take one has one included with their model
b) we've actually seen previews of eviscerators for the new plastic line
Hoboanarki wrote: Looking through the leaks on spiky bits, and it looks like normal eviscerators are totally gone from the army...
My opinion on the book until now had been reasonably optimistic, but missing out the armies signature melee weapon really just make the whole thing look phoned in by writers who just don't really care about faction.
In the writers defense, they do have that corporate dogma restricting them where they can't write rules or options that aren't WYSIWYG or sold by GW (which is very limiting because GW doesn't even sell half of the Sisters line anymore). So yes it's phoned in, but they kind of had to per corporate rules.
It also brings into question, what is the point of a Beta Codex if we aren't testing out rules for any new models? Strictly just to test AoF, Strats, Order Traits, Warlord Traits, and Relics. All new stuff GW are making models for are essentially going to untested and can potentially just invalidate any input we give to them.
What are the odds that part 2 of the Codex is already written and just not present in the beta? Since the plastics are underway, we may just be missing the key models to unlock the intended impacts of the rules. And if so, should our feedback be framed in terms of "this rule seems pointless and I never use it, but if I had a Canoness with Jump Pack..."
Automatically Appended Next Post: This definitely feels less like a codex and more like a vehicle for piloting new AoF mechanics and Stratagems.
Hoboanarki wrote: Looking through the leaks on spiky bits, and it looks like normal eviscerators are totally gone from the army...
My opinion on the book until now had been reasonably optimistic, but missing out the armies signature melee weapon really just make the whole thing look phoned in by writers who just don't really care about faction.
In the writers defense, they do have that corporate dogma restricting them where they can't write rules or options that aren't WYSIWYG or sold by GW (which is very limiting because GW doesn't even sell half of the Sisters line anymore). So yes it's phoned in, but they kind of had to per corporate rules.
It also brings into question, what is the point of a Beta Codex if we aren't testing out rules for any new models? Strictly just to test AoF, Strats, Order Traits, Warlord Traits, and Relics. All new stuff GW are making models for are essentially going to untested and can potentially just invalidate any input we give to them.
I disagree. While there's hopefully a lot we aren't testing, Convictions, Acts of Faith, Stratagems and Relics alone can tell them a lot.
Neither Celestine or Seraphim are a fast strike force anymore. Celestines purpose now is to aura buff your Shield of Faith and act as a Counter-attack unit.
I'm not really sure what the role of Seraphim is, Counter-Attack I guess, but Arcos do that better.
10 girl squad with a pistol, relic pistol, and 4 hand flamers, then use Burning Descent to open holes in chaff units for other, better, armies to take advantage of (namely Smashcaptains).
Yup. Seraphim went from being a feared scalpel to a sad mop. They're good as a one trick drop in and kill a bunch of T3 stuff. (T4 if you take max bolters, maybe) I probably won't take more than 5 with 2 flamer girls. But if it proves reliable I might take 2x 5 with 2 flamers girls and come down on turn 2 and turn 3. Time will tell.
I feel like you’re right about the squad of 5 dropping in turn 2 or 3. My thought would be to wait until late game and then drop them next to the often-ignored backline objective holding units in your opponents army (scouts, gretchin, random guard or cultist squad) and try to pry them off in a round of shooting to deny the objective more than any actual damage dealing. That would at least give them a purpose.
What I really think we need, besides some obvious things like a jump pack cannoness, is a reliable way to get our CC units into combat, like a legit assault vehicle, plus maybe AoF that prevents overwatch or something. The CC units we have can be great, but they die to a stiff breeze.and they will never make it across the table in the current state.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Here we go. 9 Repentia + Mistress in a rhino, x3, with the invuln field.
Who is out there stopping the 200 points of characters from getting sniped while the whole blob crawls forwards at D6+6" per turn ? (or at least until it rolls into a chaff screen that it has to clear with the rhinos storm bolters)
MacPhail wrote: Where does the 4++ come from? 6+ from SoF, +1 from Celestine's aura, and... what am I missing?
Warlord trait on the canoness that gives her the same AoF improving bubble like Celestine. There's also a strat that buffs a single squad's simulacrum imperialist for 1 phase, too.
MacPhail wrote: Where does the 4++ come from? 6+ from SoF, +1 from Celestine's aura, and... what am I missing?
Warlord trait on the canoness that gives her the same AoF improving bubble like Celestine. There's also a strat that buffs a single squad's simulacrum imperialist for 1 phase, too.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Here we go. 9 Repentia + Mistress in a rhino, x3, with the invuln field.
3 4++ Rhinos moving forwards with kinda-scary ish assault units that should hit ~Turn 3 and kinda hurt a bit before wholesale dying.
That's good, right? Right?
I know you're being a little facetious but, as a thought experiment, might as well go all in.
Put the Lucy Book on one of the mistresses and make her the warlord with Indomitable Belief, swap the other two out for priests. Bum-rush the other line, watch your positioning, then pop vessel and the passion and do whatever you can to make that roll go off.
Maybe split some of those repentia up into two or even three squads if you want to get cute and spread wounds/attacks, but makes positioning much more difficult and gives you more chances to fail charges. You could also turn those priests into missionaries if you split up the repentia and make these a couple of detachments to gain extra CP.
In theory that should have a pretty good chance of erasing almost any unit you put it against if you can do it right, but at 709 points you'll probably want it to do more than just that.
How about a screen of Seraphim between the tanks and in front of the walking Canoness? They'll be able to pace the advance, they'll have Agelic Visage on top of everything else, and if you upgrade them, there will probably be a few left to go after a secondary task after the transports arrive.
Hoboanarki wrote: Looking through the leaks on spiky bits, and it looks like normal eviscerators are totally gone from the army...
My opinion on the book until now had been reasonably optimistic, but missing out the armies signature melee weapon really just make the whole thing look phoned in by writers who just don't really care about faction.
They are gone, but they are still an index option and you can take them through index.
Hoboanarki wrote: Looking through the leaks on spiky bits, and it looks like normal eviscerators are totally gone from the army...
My opinion on the book until now had been reasonably optimistic, but missing out the armies signature melee weapon really just make the whole thing look phoned in by writers who just don't really care about faction.
They are gone, but they are still an index option and you can take them through index.
Yeah I know, it's more the point that the canoness model they sell comes with an eviscerator, but they obviously didnt even bother to look.
Remember, all wargear options can change b.c wargear options will be based on the Kit in the box. So they might already be thinking that they dont want those in the kits, or they will. Ask GW about it to make sure its a reminder just in case.
MacPhail wrote: Where does the 4++ come from? 6+ from SoF, +1 from Celestine's aura, and... what am I missing?
Warlord trait on the canoness that gives her the same AoF improving bubble like Celestine. There's also a strat that buffs a single squad's simulacrum imperialist for 1 phase, too.
the strat can only be used once per game
It's a warlord trait. Every unit in 6 inches improves their shield of faith to a 5+ (specifically a 5+). Then celestine cranks it up to a 4+, and any seraphim would have a 3+.
MacPhail wrote: Where does the 4++ come from? 6+ from SoF, +1 from Celestine's aura, and... what am I missing?
Warlord trait on the canoness that gives her the same AoF improving bubble like Celestine. There's also a strat that buffs a single squad's simulacrum imperialist for 1 phase, too.
the strat can only be used once per game
It's a warlord trait. Every unit in 6 inches improves their shield of faith to a 5+ (specifically a 5+). Then celestine cranks it up to a 4+, and any seraphim would have a 3+.
You...kinda just repeated what he said only you traded out what bonus gets you to 3++. +1 for Celestine +1 for WT, +1 for being a Seraphim, +1 for the Simulacrum strat.
Amishprn86 wrote:And you can also improve the range by 3"
Not...really. Sure, you can improve the Canonesses range by 3"...doesn't help you much when you have to stay within 6 of Celestine anyway.
I went for a little of everything. Lots of Canoness auras, 2 Relics, a bunch of bodies, six tanks, and a wide range of specials and heavies. Roughly speaking, there are several forces here: An alpha strike of two Immolators with Dominions, one with Stormbolters, one with Meltas. Following them at normal speed are two Rhinos, one with Heavy Flamer Rets inside, the other with two Melta-heavy BSS squads, escorting the aura-support characters between them. The last Canoness castles up with Exorcists and Retributors. The BSS screen the backfield, and the Seraphim and Penitent are harassment and countercharge units. I plan on pushing Divine Guidance, Blessed Bolts, and Holy Trinity while looking for other opportunities.
I'll report after tomorrow's game... feedback welcome.
I went for a little of everything. Lots of Canoness auras, 2 Relics, a bunch of bodies, six tanks, and a wide range of specials and heavies. Roughly speaking, there are several forces here: An alpha strike of two Immolators with Dominions, one with Stormbolters, one with Meltas. Following them at normal speed are two Rhinos, one with Heavy Flamer Rets inside, the other with two Melta-heavy BSS squads, escorting the aura-support characters between them. The last Canoness castles up with Exorcists and Retributors. The BSS screen the backfield, and the Seraphim and Penitent are harassment and countercharge units. I plan on pushing Divine Guidance, Blessed Bolts, and Holy Trinity while looking for other opportunities.
I'll report after tomorrow's game... feedback welcome.
Gemini are 25. No free swords. You'll certainly get to try out a lot of unit types with a setup like this.
So far it looks like they can, aka they don't already have one and are characters. I'm disappointed they can't be the warlord. I can understand it, but still disappointed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blade of Admonition is unchanged from last year. The rumor where the damage changed turned out to be false.
After the Ro3 and the nerf to my Doms I’ve been lurking while awaiting this beta codex, and I gotta say I’m extremely disappointed. The tools that worked (fast Seraphims and Celestine) have been trashed and the new faith mechanic is silly considering the acts of faith themselves are nearly useless. The army has no focus - it’s not fast anymore, it doesn’t want to get close, gunline sisters won’t work, and hordes will get smashed by true hordes. Mech isn’t competitive considering the cost of our transports and lack of ranged weapons. And no new choices other than Gemina (who now can’t soak up woundsnfor Celestine). The Convictions don’t make any builds competitive either.
I’ll stick to my allies and the paltry Sisters battalion of 3 BSS in Repressors with 2 Canonesses.
I was hopeful for this Codex but truthfully I’d rather use the index than this beta gak
davidgr33n wrote: After the Ro3 and the nerf to my Doms I’ve been lurking while awaiting this beta codex, and I gotta say I’m extremely disappointed. The tools that worked (fast Seraphims and Celestine) have been trashed and the new faith mechanic is silly considering the acts of faith themselves are nearly useless. The army has no focus - it’s not fast anymore, it doesn’t want to get close, gunline sisters won’t work, and hordes will get smashed by true hordes. Mech isn’t competitive considering the cost of our transports and lack of ranged weapons. And no new choices other than Gemina (who now can’t soak up woundsnfor Celestine). The Convictions don’t make any builds competitive either.
I’ll stick to my allies and the paltry Sisters battalion of 3 BSS in Repressors with 2 Canonesses.
I was hopeful for this Codex but truthfully I’d rather use the index than this beta gak
Basically. The index is far stronger overall, and even that didn't really function that well post rule of 3. We can come up with all the 'combos' or w/e we want to but the end result is polishing a turd at the absolute best.
MacPhail wrote: I can pull off six Immolators... who's got the full bakers dozen?.
Six Repressors (two more under construction) 3 Exorcists, 13 immolator/rhino's. Life is good.
Same boat for me. I have 5 exos, 13 immolators, and 6 repressors. 3 built and 3 in the bitz box. I just ordered 10 more storm bolters yesterday. Ugh. That's a $100 hit i'm not looking forward to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: After the Ro3 and the nerf to my Doms I’ve been lurking while awaiting this beta codex, and I gotta say I’m extremely disappointed. The tools that worked (fast Seraphims and Celestine) have been trashed and the new faith mechanic is silly considering the acts of faith themselves are nearly useless. The army has no focus - it’s not fast anymore, it doesn’t want to get close, gunline sisters won’t work, and hordes will get smashed by true hordes. Mech isn’t competitive considering the cost of our transports and lack of ranged weapons. And no new choices other than Gemina (who now can’t soak up woundsnfor Celestine). The Convictions don’t make any builds competitive either.
I’ll stick to my allies and the paltry Sisters battalion of 3 BSS in Repressors with 2 Canonesses.
I was hopeful for this Codex but truthfully I’d rather use the index than this beta gak
Get out of my head you witch. It looks like I'll sticking with Battalion + Outrider + Castellan for the foreseeable future.
I got a quick win today against AdMech. My opponent conceded after Turn 2 with all of his HQs alive, but only one Onager, one Kastellan, and one undamaged Ranger squad. I had lost 2 Immolators, a Rhino, and squads of Seraphim, Dominions, and Sisters, but I had both Exorcists, two melta squads, heavy flamers, Celestine, and lots of infantry left to secure the board.
I tried Vessels with Divine Guidance to some good effect, and I managed to deploy Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity, and Burning Descent. They were all mostly as advertised, but I found them all pretty circumstantial. MVPs were the Stormbolter Doms (with two uses of Blessed Bolts they tallied a unit of Sicarians in each turn) and the Exorcists (who bagged two Kastellans and were about to finish the third). Double-melta BSS squads accounted for an Onager on their own, which was a nice return on investment. The Penitent Engine chopped down a Dragoon, but died before making back its points. Letdowns included Seraphim, who just aren't very mobile, and Acts of Faith, which were laborious and seemed to struggle with how much impact was reasonable.
More thoughts as I have them... but the general assessment that this army doesn't have a clear sense of direction seems accurate so far. Stratagems had a bigger impact on game planning the AoFs, which didn't feel quite right.
And no new choices other than Gemina (who now can’t soak up woundsnfor Celestine)
If they are within 3" of St Celestine they can on a 2+ but get a Mortal Wound which is much worse than before especially since once both are dead thats it for them.
MacPhail wrote: I got a quick win today against AdMech. My opponent conceded after Turn 2 with all of his HQs alive, but only one Onager, one Kastellan, and one undamaged Ranger squad. I had lost 2 Immolators, a Rhino, and squads of Seraphim, Dominions, and Sisters, but I had both Exorcists, two melta squads, heavy flamers, Celestine, and lots of infantry left to secure the board.
I tried Vessels with Divine Guidance to some good effect, and I managed to deploy Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity, and Burning Descent. They were all mostly as advertised, but I found them all pretty circumstantial. MVPs were the Stormbolter Doms (with two uses of Blessed Bolts they tallied a unit of Sicarians in each turn) and the Exorcists (who bagged two Kastellans and were about to finish the third). Double-melta BSS squads accounted for an Onager on their own, which was a nice return on investment. The Penitent Engine chopped down a Dragoon, but died before making back its points. Letdowns included Seraphim, who just aren't very mobile, and Acts of Faith, which were laborious and seemed to struggle with how much impact was reasonable.
More thoughts as I have them... but the general assessment that this army doesn't have a clear sense of direction seems accurate so far. Stratagems had a bigger impact on game planning the AoFs, which didn't feel quite right.
Similar conclusions to what I've been seeing. Got another couple games in (v Thousand Sons and Orks), and Sisters have a couple strengths, but more weaknesses.
I'm having a really difficult time getting to backfield units, everything is just too slow. Dropping in Seraphim is a death trap, and breaking them away from the Aura buffs means they are just as dead before getting anywhere. I'll likely end up allying in an Assassin Vanguard (I was using one before Beta) so I'll at least have something that can hit softer backfield heavy weapons. That doesn't help the Beta Codex though. Exorcists are good against backfield vehicles, but jusy don't have the RoF for things like Lootas, HWTs, etc.
I will say that I love our Psychic defence, it's probably THE change to the army I like. It was instrumental to beating a Thousand Sons army. Combo the Brazier with Suffer the Witch and purity of Faith and it really gives psychic armies a tough time.
Psychic defense and Invuln Auras are our biggest strengths right now.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I'm having a really difficult time getting to backfield units, everything is just too slow. Dropping in Seraphim is a death trap, and breaking them away from the Aura buffs means they are just as dead before getting anywhere. I'll likely end up allying in an Assassin Vanguard (I was using one before Beta) so I'll at least have something that can hit softer backfield heavy weapons. That doesn't help the Beta Codex though. Exorcists are good against backfield vehicles, but jusy don't have the RoF for things like Lootas, HWTs, etc.
I have a hope that running two Exorcists, parking them near a Canoness, and assuming that your shooting phase re-roll goes to one of the Heavy d6 rolls every time MIGHT just make them consistent enough to plan around. I would have been one round faster in resolving the threat from the Kastellans if I hadn't had to fall an Exo back on a poorly screened flank.
This AdMech matchup revealed another weakness of Seraphim, which is that without flyers, they draw all of the enhanced AA fire (in this case an Onager with Icarus Array). The IP Seraphim never made it off the line, and the HF Seraphim basically traded themselves for a Ranger squad. I suspect their only viable use is to drop out of LoS on Turn 2 and deliver the strike on Turn 3, assuming your opponent hasn't repositioned. The Burning Descent strat was decent, but might have been better on a full size unit... I found myself wishing for more pistols when the regular Shooting phase rolled around to finish the job I'd started in the Movement phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A question came up in that game... does Vessels turn an AoF into an aura that can then be extended by the Book of St. Lucius? The word "aura" does not appear on the Vessels stratagem, but it is part of the phrasing of the relic...
So is it me or is the rumoured email address for sending SoB Beta feedback not actually inside the CA2018 book? I looked twice and can't find any email address...
Overall the codex is a blanket nerf compared to the Index army. Maybe they want to make things worse so they can then claim a true 2019 codex is amazing when all it does is bring Sisters back up to the level of the index rules
Personally I wouldn't mind the nerfs if we at least regained a wider selection of characters and a couple of new fun units. I knew things were going to suck the moment I saw the photo of Veridyan and below it just said "Canoness"...
I want Celestine, Ephrael, Veridyan, Mirya and Verity, plus a couple of new alternates for Celestine. It's just so lame and boring how there are no choices and haven't been for like 10+ years.
Amishprn86 wrote:And you can also improve the range by 3"
Not...really. Sure, you can improve the Canonesses range by 3"...doesn't help you much when you have to stay within 6 of Celestine anyway.
Yeah, i'm questioning this as well. I mean does the relic affect the warlord trait? Or is it just things listed in the "abilities" section of the datasheet?
Amishprn86 wrote:And you can also improve the range by 3"
Not...really. Sure, you can improve the Canonesses range by 3"...doesn't help you much when you have to stay within 6 of Celestine anyway.
Drider wrote: Yeah, i'm questioning this as well. I mean does the relic affect the warlord trait? Or is it just things listed in the "abilities" section of the datasheet?
It says "the range of the bearer's auras"
BRB Aura says "have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect"
So it will work on anything that says out to a certain range, even if that bearer has multiple auras it will work.
Amishprn86 wrote:And you can also improve the range by 3"
Not...really. Sure, you can improve the Canonesses range by 3"...doesn't help you much when you have to stay within 6 of Celestine anyway.
Drider wrote: Yeah, i'm questioning this as well. I mean does the relic affect the warlord trait? Or is it just things listed in the "abilities" section of the datasheet?
It says "the range of the bearer's auras"
BRB Aura says "have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect"
So it will work on anything that says out to a certain range, even if that bearer has multiple auras it will work.
Edit: The quote broke, edit to fix it.
The exact wording is on the relic is "Increase the range of the bearer’s aura abilities by 3"."
The BRB reference you made says that models with aura abilities are within range of themselves, so isn't really relevant.
It probably does work like that, but it's not iron clad and you'll probably come up against someone who will argue that it doesn't.
The Vessels question is a good one. It would be nice if it dose but i'm not getting my hopes up.
Am I the only one who's saddened by the battering of the ecclesiarchy units? Priests and missionaries have no options so my plasma toting and power maul guys will have to be from the index/guard codex. Also the missionary model comes with an autogun he cant equip.
I also seriously dislike the battle conclave rule and it prevents me filling out a detachment with ecclesiarchy units. Im not trying to abuse it for CPs, rather I actually like playing a "holy crusade of nutters" than majority sisters. I realise I might be in the minority but if anyone else is sending feedback could they think about this too. Id be happy if a detachment with ecclesiarchy only units didnt yield any cp. But preventing me ftom using them is a pain. Oh also the one missionary per detachment is a shame.
Frowbakk wrote: OK... Let's do this, Brutus, we ain't new to this!
13 Immolators.
Hmm I might be crazy but I got suddenly wish I could try that one with my orks. Looks terrifying. 13 horde burning vehicles sounds like my orks could be facing rough time. Even loota star wouldn\t take even half of those before running out of CP.
Albeit knights etc would likely have jolly good time vs that. But heavy infantry army like my orks might have headache provided you don't just camp inside transports with your infantry.
Really you would want to give all these tanks a 4++ with Celeste. Can a Geminae be a warlord? It would be nice to have a warlord that can keep up with the tanks
Really you would want to give all these tanks a 4++ with Celeste. Can a Geminae be a warlord? It would be nice to have a warlord that can keep up with the tanks
The Geminae Superia's Divine Guardians ability prevents them from having a Warlord Trait.
Bobug wrote: Am I the only one who's saddened by the battering of the ecclesiarchy units? Priests and missionaries have no options so my plasma toting and power maul guys will have to be from the index/guard codex. Also the missionary model comes with an autogun he cant equip.
I also seriously dislike the battle conclave rule and it prevents me filling out a detachment with ecclesiarchy units. Im not trying to abuse it for CPs, rather I actually like playing a "holy crusade of nutters" than majority sisters. I realise I might be in the minority but if anyone else is sending feedback could they think about this too. Id be happy if a detachment with ecclesiarchy only units didnt yield any cp. But preventing me ftom using them is a pain. Oh also the one missionary per detachment is a shame.
1. There's nothing that indicates Missionaries and Preachers replace the Ministorum Priest in the codex. It does, however, specifically state that Imagifiers have been removed as a unit.
2. The codex likewise has a designer's note requesting anyone using Crusaders in Guard detachments to use the beta Codex version, including Acts of Faith, to get as much feedback as possible on that rule.
3. There's nothing stating that the Missionary and Preacher replace or are added to any entries in the Guard codex.
4. The standard eviscerator is no longer part of our armory, however the Index vs Codex flow chart means we can still give a Canoness an eviscerator... at 12 points instead of 11 like other armies since we have to use the index rules.
With these four points in mind, I lead you to the "index vs codex" flowchart and the following possibilities:
a. Preachers and Missionaries replace Priests for Sisters but not for Guard. If so, they would still have access to Index equipment at Index costs
b. All three are separate units. Preachers and Missionaries get no equipment, Ministorum Priests do BUT Ministorum Priests don't have the Word of the Emperor ability since it's not part of their datasheet.
Also, there's a designer's note on page 94 that states, for matched play, if you don't have any Ministorum Priests in the detachment, then the detachment can only have 1 Ecchlesiarchy Battle Conclave unit.
Really you would want to give all these tanks a 4++ with Celeste. Can a Geminae be a warlord? It would be nice to have a warlord that can keep up with the tanks
Geminae data sheet prohibits them from having a warlord trait. Page 99 specifically states they can't be given relics. Besides which, why would you want them to be your Warlord? They're T3, 2W.. Even if they could be given the Warlord trait for 5+ shield of faith, I'm not relying on a 3++ that requires me to be within 6" of another character to keep my Warlord alive. If they could be given the Valorous Heart conviction for a 6+ FNP (because BRB warlord trait for 6+ FNP would drop them to 4++) I'd might consider it, and even then it'd be highly unlikely.
Hate to say it, but my warlord is a Canoness until further notice. I.E. we get a better option and/or Celestine isn't shoehorned into "Faith Point on a 4+" for a Warlord trait.
Does it actually say somewhere in CA 2018 that 2017's CA is removed for all purposes of rules? (Ive read it and i ddnt see it state this, tho i might have just over looked it)
B.c if not we still use any of those point changes that didnt make it into 2018, no?
Amishprn86 wrote: Does it actually say somewhere in CA 2018 that 2017's CA is removed for all purposes of rules? (Ive read it and i ddnt see it state this, tho i might have just over looked it)
B.c if not we still use any of those point changes that didnt make it into 2018, no?
If you're playing somewhere where you can't just ask your bro to let you mix and match rules because the beta codex is stupid, just use the unmodified index rules. They're significantly better, especially for ministorum stuff.
There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
Sisters could have Terminator armor and still be crap with the non-existent offensive capability they have. Please refrain from opining on this thread if you have no basis for your argument other than another threads’ opinions.
Amishprn86 wrote: Does it actually say somewhere in CA 2018 that 2017's CA is removed for all purposes of rules? (Ive read it and i ddnt see it state this, tho i might have just over looked it)
B.c if not we still use any of those point changes that didnt make it into 2018, no?
If you're playing somewhere where you can't just ask your bro to let you mix and match rules because the beta codex is stupid, just use the unmodified index rules. They're significantly better, especially for ministorum stuff.
That wasnt the question, i can play how i want without problems.
Again, did CA 2018 say to ignore 2017 entirely? (remember we are testing out the beta dex, i want to know the actual rules and use them as GW has intended not "How i want")
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
S3, T3 is also a huge difference. But there are already players talking about Melee sisters due to +1S and Atk on Celestian Squads
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
Sisters WERE a powerful army. The new beta codex nerfed us from 'surprisingly good considering we're an index force' to 'better go pull my Grey Knights out of storage I guess :('.
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
Sisters WERE a powerful army. The new beta codex nerfed us from 'surprisingly good considering we're an index force' to 'better go pull my Grey Knights out of storage I guess :('.
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
There is a 17 page thread that has one page complaining about power armor, and 16 pages complaining about T4 being worse than T3, and that plasma is more effective against marines than guard.
Aka standard "Marines aren't mary sue's on the tabletop" thread #34,578
As you were told in the other thread, sister's main issues aren't their power armor. It's their S3/T3, and the fact that using their army rule suddenly became a game of chance. And they lost their ability to actually hurt things. Or move quickly.
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
There is a 17 page thread that has one page complaining about power armor, and 16 pages complaining about T4 being worse than T3, and that plasma is more effective against marines than guard.
Aka standard "Marines aren't mary sue's on the tabletop" thread #34,578
As you were told in the other thread, sister's main issues aren't their power armor. It's their S3/T3, and the fact that using their army rule suddenly became a game of chance. And they lost their ability to actually hurt things. Or move quickly.
I only realized it during that thread but, we literally did end up trading everything good and fun about the army for a shot at a 4++ invul. That's a really bad trade and I wish they hadn't of done that.
Playing Horde sisters sucks not just because any horde lists is obnoxious bullcrap to play against(no, I don't mind at all that your first movement phase took 25 minutes) but because sisters horde lists aren't very good. Once you get sisters in combat with something that can survive the OoBR turn, the whole blob just comes to a standstill. You could destroy that entire list with 2 rhinos. It's not like they have enough long range firepower to get you off of objectives even if their bubblewrapping was perfect.
Eldenfirefly wrote: There is some kind of weird expectations mismatch going around if you ask me. There is a 17 page thread on people crying about power armor. And yet, sisters of battle have troops which are just 9 points a model in power armor. You would have thought that's great. But I see so much gloom and doom on this thread after the beta codex came out. So, models in power armor at 9 points hardly seems to solve any problems. Yet, when I brought this up on that power armor thread. People there seem to think that that sisters are a powerful army...
I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side...
There is a 17 page thread that has one page complaining about power armor, and 16 pages complaining about T4 being worse than T3, and that plasma is more effective against marines than guard.
Aka standard "Marines aren't mary sue's on the tabletop" thread #34,578
As you were told in the other thread, sister's main issues aren't their power armor. It's their S3/T3, and the fact that using their army rule suddenly became a game of chance. And they lost their ability to actually hurt things. Or move quickly.
I only realized it during that thread but, we literally did end up trading everything good and fun about the army for a shot at a 4++ invul. That's a really bad trade and I wish they hadn't of done that.
Playing Horde sisters sucks not just because any horde lists is obnoxious bullcrap to play against(no, I don't mind at all that your first movement phase took 25 minutes) but because sisters horde lists aren't very good. Once you get sisters in combat with something that can survive the OoBR turn, the whole blob just comes to a standstill. You could destroy that entire list with 2 rhinos. It's not like they have enough long range firepower to get you off of objectives even if their bubblewrapping was perfect.
My “feedback” to GW (40kfaq@gwplc.com) regarding the beta crapdex-
I’ve been playing Sisters since 2nd, so I’m devout for Sisters.
This beta Codex took away all our competitive edge (Celestine and Seraphim double moves and Retributors double shooting) and gave us the POSSIBILITY of MAYBE doing something a lot weaker.
Please do something different than this weak wanna-be Codex.
I’ve played Sisters a long time and have been hopeful, but I’m almost to the point of giving totally up on them and never buying another Sisters model again.
Read all the competitive Sisters blogs and you’ll see how disappointed Sisters players are across the board.
I’m glad you’re listening to us this time, but obviously Sisters are too difficult to write good solid rules for.
davidgr33n wrote: My “feedback” to GW (40kfaq@gwplc.com) regarding the beta crapdex-
I’ve been playing Sisters since 2nd, so I’m devout for Sisters.
This beta Codex took away all our competitive edge (Celestine and Seraphim double moves and Retributors double shooting) and gave us the POSSIBILITY of MAYBE doing something a lot weaker.
Please do something different than this weak wanna-be Codex.
I’ve played Sisters a long time and have been hopeful, but I’m almost to the point of giving totally up on them and never buying another Sisters model again.
Read all the competitive Sisters blogs and you’ll see how disappointed Sisters players are across the board.
I’m glad you’re listening to us this time, but obviously Sisters are too difficult to write good solid rules for.
My feedback was 3200 words long and only covered Celestine and Acts of Faith. And not in anywhere near the depth I wanted to. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the book is a russian nesting doll of badness. The more I thought about it, the more problems I found.
Celestine in the current story line is supposed to be this bad ass bitch that is amazing, the game Celestine is barely better than an Adeptus Astartes captain with jump pack.
davidgr33n wrote: Celestine in the current story line is supposed to be this bad ass bitch that is amazing, the game Celestine is barely better than an Adeptus Astartes captain with jump pack.
sadly when you get to run an Imperial demon princess who likes to kill chaos demon princes people complain that she is too powerful, which is sadly why we do not get to have nice things.... the lack of useful HQ alternatives doesn't help either
davidgr33n wrote: Celestine in the current story line is supposed to be this bad ass bitch that is amazing, the game Celestine is barely better than an Adeptus Astartes captain with jump pack.
Yep, that was part of my feedback. Compare her to a Custodes Jetbike captain(who is the same price she is) with the 3++ bike and an actually usable warlord trait for extra sadnesses.
1. There's nothing that indicates Missionaries and Preachers replace the Ministorum Priest in the codex. It does, however, specifically state that Imagifiers have been removed as a unit.
2. The codex likewise has a designer's note requesting anyone using Crusaders in Guard detachments to use the beta Codex version, including Acts of Faith, to get as much feedback as possible on that rule.
3. There's nothing stating that the Missionary and Preacher replace or are added to any entries in the Guard codex.
4. The standard eviscerator is no longer part of our armory, however the Index vs Codex flow chart means we can still give a Canoness an eviscerator... at 12 points instead of 11 like other armies since we have to use the index rules.
With these four points in mind, I lead you to the "index vs codex" flowchart and the following possibilities:
a. Preachers and Missionaries replace Priests for Sisters but not for Guard. If so, they would still have access to Index equipment at Index costs
b. All three are separate units. Preachers and Missionaries get no equipment, Ministorum Priests do BUT Ministorum Priests don't have the Word of the Emperor ability since it's not part of their datasheet.
Also, there's a designer's note on page 94 that states, for matched play, if you don't have any Ministorum Priests in the detachment, then the detachment can only have 1 Ecchlesiarchy Battle Conclave unit.
.
Im not sure you read my post properly. Im aware of the index flowchart and guard codex priests, thats why I said I said I'd have to use them. I am also aware of the crusaders change etc. Not sure why you brought that up.
Im also entirely aware of the conclave rules. My issue with them is that I cannot fill out an ecclesiarchy detachment (which would be vanguard) due to them not counting as a slot. The only way to fiĺl pure ecclesiarchy detachments would be field 3 priests per detachment or take min 3 lone penitent engines to fill a spearhead. I'll do this and also will be using guard and index wargear priests but I'm having to "game the system" to do this. I'm saying there's no need for such complexity.
What I would propose is:
1. Access to wargear for preachers amd missionaries: Access to an autogun or choose 1 from special weapons, access to melee weapons list in exchange for chainsword. Access to autopistol in exchange for laspistol (technically unneeded i know as rules are the same 99.99% of the time)
Also the official GW model for the missionary carries an autogun.
2: keep "1 conclave unit if no priests" rule, but either remove the battle conclave rule, make it "can choose to not fill a slot" or "does not fill a slot if the detachment's minimum requirements have been filled"
Anyone else ALREADY tired of the backseat Generals? Most of these mouth breathers probably couldn't name 2 Sisters of Battle units before CA dropped and now they're experts on an army I've been playing for 3 editions now.
Playing them since codex witch hunters and kinda amused by the "but I tell you they will destroy everything in their way, trust me I play a completely different army" stuff going on sometimes.
But it's just a normal day on the internet (and at least it keeps us on our toes and force us to think things through... maybe not the 5th time though )
ERJAK wrote: Sisters WERE a powerful army. The new beta codex nerfed us from 'surprisingly good considering we're an index force' to 'better go pull my Grey Knights out of storage I guess :('.
Okay, I just tried to catch up on the three pages of this thread I missed.
I'm loving the new lists and actual discussion of the tactics, which is what this thread is for.
Can we take whining like Erjak's above (sorry, Erjak, but you just are the one I landed on) into some other thread? We get it, you guys are not happy with CA. We'll take it as read at this point.
Let's move on and talk about how to make it work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I plan on trying to get some time out of work today to work up some lists and see what I can come up with.
Just my two cents, and I guess its my problem with 40k as a whole. This is no longer a wargame where some semblance of battle tactics matter; its simply a game where you look for the best combos.
I could deal with this if the list building at least supported my head-canon of a believable fighting force. But no, as it is, to get the right combos I must mix orders; I must add in non-sisters units (priests, etc).
As the fluff indicates, they should be a self-contained fighting force. I cant even do that without setting myself up for failure.
Eh, not even sure what the point of my post is. Just disappointed. I have four historical armies, an Infinity sectorial and am painting up a fantasy army for KoW. And my sisters are the prettiest, neatest army I have. I just wish I could play an actual wargame with them.
ERJAK wrote: Anyone else ALREADY tired of the backseat Generals? Most of these mouth breathers probably couldn't name 2 Sisters of Battle units before CA dropped and now they're experts on an army I've been playing for 3 editions now.
Quick, somebody give this guy a hug before he goes postal. Or maybe a couple beers if you come to St. Louis.
We've got 5 weeks left to polish this turd before LVO.
My takeaway thus far:
1: Codex isn't viable without allies. This doesn't bother me, I haven't played straight sisters since 6th.
2: Ignore anything that has to do with AoF. Warlord traits, Relics, AoFs themselves. All worthless.
3: Treat Celestine as a situational glass cannon as opposed to a balls to the wall front line beatstick.
4: Anti-psyker stuff sounds promising next time I play Tsons. (Haven't tested it)
5: Thank the Throne that the Repressors were unmolested. If they lost firepoints or became more expensive I would have had to hang up the meltaguns.
6: Storm Bolters are the bees knees. You can't have too many of them.
7: The only thing I didn't use in the index that I may try now is Arcos. Maybe.
8: Exos went from Bleh to Meh.
9: We don't do anything that other imperial factions don't already do better. We're in a really weird spot now.
10: If you're building SoB to be melee based, you've already lost.
It seems to me to our army tactics have regressed back to 4th/5th edition Rhino Rush with a small Castle in the back. Basically we’re back to “Marines Light” again, and this seems to be a deliberate design choice. We are back to Immy Trains and Easy Bakes. Looking back at our Tactic from yesteryear, it this thread literally looks like our discussions from 10-15 years ago.
The real question is, is that a good thing?
I’ve been playing my 2nd Ed Sisters army since 2nd Ed, although my old MkI Sister Rhinos and Immolators have been replaced with the “newer” MkII chassis’s, but I still have a Sepahim Superior with Power Fist as that was an option once, and my Celestine is still metal. And I’ll be honest, my only interest in the new Sister release are the plastic models, because I also play Grey Knights and we all know how well that’s going this edition. In 8th, I am looking at a minimal list to net 5 CP that might be a less sickening option to the vomit inducing Guard Battery Imperial players are forced to field if they want to be able to play even remotely competitively. A Sister Battery would just feel better at this point. Would it be better?
BaconCatBug wrote: The fact that GW didn't include a Repressor Datasheet, which to me indicates they aren't going to make a "Plastic" Repressor makes me kind of sad.
They didn't include any datasheets for new units that they will be producing in plastic. They said that from the start.
Mmmpi wrote: For battery use, I'm liking the "Faithful 17" I posted in the "PowerArmorProblems" thread.
Cannoness WL: 5+ SoF Brazer
Missionary
3x5sisters w/3 SB
Overwatch on 5+ conviction, though a good argument can be made for the 6+++ one.
This gives you three units to hold objectives, five deny the witch uses, and a bit of mid range fire power.
+1, except the Canoness likely won't be the warlord, depends on who the allies are.
And I like the name Faithful 17 rather than Loyal 17. Stealing it.
They can screen if you aren't against Psychers, and if you are then you take the Brazier and cover as much ground as possible.
That is very true about the warlord.
"Faithful 17" The more it spreads...
Well, you still have to be within 6" of the brazier to benefit, but you can cover quite a bit of ground that way. 43" at max dispersion (assuming my math is right).
Played first game, using the Bloody Rose conviction, this weekend using ITC scoring rules which I was not very familiar with.
I would not have won on the objectives, but that was mostly due my lack of experience with this ruleset.
I went for a fairly solid brick wall of tanks. 3 detachments, lots of bodies. 5 immolators and 1 repressor carrying 10 repentias and mistress. I had 10 CPs and 8 FPs. By the end of turn 3 I was out of CPs and had 3 FPs left.
Deployment was hammer and anvil and that helped me since everything got funneled center of the board.
I played against a Tzentch daemon list that was heavy on mortal wound spam.
Things that did not work so well for me:
Tanks getting caught in assault by a horde of daemons. I lost two and could not exit the occupants. That was a bad play on my part and cost me a lot.
Failing my devotion on my "smithe lightning rod". I was hoping to have a unit take smithes and shrug them off on a 4+, but failed that roll twice. I would have had a dialogus nearby normally, but lost her when one of the tank was blown up and she couldnt get out. That unit died much faster than I hoped and failed to protect critical elements of my army.
Things that did go well:
Canoness managed her devotion on the passion when she was in the center of the table. I used the vessel stratagem and passed that AOF to 2 squads of sisters, a squad of seraphim, another canoness and my 9 repentia squad. Jacobus being right beside her, giving out his +1 atk aura, made this combo even more devastating.
The repentias alone killed a daemon prince, 3 screamers and close to 10 pink horrors.
Celestine is not a beat stick anymore, I used her as a support character and she did well in that respect. She's a scalpel and should be used with precision.
I moved my tanks together at first, supported by Celestine and my warlord canoness and was able to confer everyone close to them a 4++ save due to SOF.
Review on AoF that I was able to use:
Hand of the emperor: Allowed my Canoness at first to keep up with my tanks so she could keep her invuln buff aura on them. Did what I expected it to.
Aegis of the Emperor: I think I had the strategy down for using this one, but failed my 3+ roll both times I tried to use it. The squad dedicated to this should have a dialogus, but at 30pts for the model, its debatable on whether its worth it or not.
Divine Guidance: Used on a dominion squad, but had no interesting targets. Very underwhelming result since I did not roll any 2s the time I used it.
The Passion: Used on a canoness and lucked out with a 6. She then combo'ed this to half my army that happened to be within range of her aura. Utterly devasting counter charge and cost my opponent a lot. It just needs to be more reliable. Had I failed that roll, I would likely have lost a big part of my army or been tied into protracted combat.
Stratagems:
Burning Descent: Used on the 5 seraphim with inferno pistols to kill some brimstone horrors and remove them from an objective. Worked well. Hand Flamers are not great, but if you need to remove a unit from an objective, Seraphims can do it. They need to adjust the stratagems so that it works with Inferno Pistols as well, but as it stands, this is now part of my toolbox. I will most likely be going for 10 seraphims as 5 was underwhelming.
Vessel of the Emperor: Very good stratagems and why my next list will likely be foot heavy. Used to great effect with the passion and I want to build CP heavy lists now to see if this one can be used at least 3 times.
Final Redemption: Used it, but my repentias killed everything they touched on the turn they charged. They did not get a chance to die in melee. Ill be using it on a turn where they did not charge next time.
Purity of Faith: Used twice. Worked once, failed the other. Does exactly what it says and going to be used regularly against Psychic heavy armies.
Overall liked how the army played, but did not like the list I built. I went by what I know and was comfortable with and I suspect the sister meta is going to have to adapt to make the best use of these AoF.
Big squads are going to be a must now and with all the ways we have to mitigate morale, its not going to be that crippling to lose a few sisters.
I’m glad you enjoyed the game.
Unfortunately more and more I’m hearing that footslogging Sisters is going to be our COMPETITIVE build. Unfortunately Sisters moving at 6” (and one unit per turn MAYBE moving 9”) is going to get blasted to bits even with Celestine and Canoness Warlord moving to give them 4++. At some point the blob has to split up to contest objectives / go after opponents shooting at you from a distance all around you. It’s just not going to be competitive at all.
davidgr33n wrote: I’m glad you enjoyed the game.
Unfortunately more and more I’m hearing that footslogging Sisters is going to be our COMPETITIVE build. Unfortunately Sisters moving at 6” (and one unit per turn MAYBE moving 9”) is going to get blasted to bits even with Celestine and Canoness Warlord moving to give them 4++. At some point the blob has to split up to contest objectives / go after opponents shooting at you from a distance all around you. It’s just not going to be competitive at all.
I played the horde this weekend. It's actually really really strong. I defiantly needed some sort of ranged or anti tank or monster unit but theres a build there. The caveat of course is that it's kind of miserable to play, I don't know anyone who has 150-200 bolter girls, and it doesn't really work unless you play pure sisters.
Eventually you'll kill anything with 300ish bolter shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s. It just sucks to roll and feels like a waste of time when your rolling it.
Interested in hearing especially how Foot Horde sisters is competitive, and why? I've been keeping up with the thread, but I didn't read it super seriously...
is it really just the 4++ blob on tons of girlies?
Okay, now that there hasn't been a zeroday errata and the podcast is done, I can freely explain The Pink Tide to everyone.
As most of you have figured out by now, Sisters went from the fastest Imperium faction with significant burst damage output, to the slowest with some of the worst damage output, by the snap of GW's gauntlet. In exchange, everybody gets a 4++! If they jump through a bunch of hoops.
What some of you haven't noticed yet, is that there are additional hoops you can jump through to get back to the pre-nerf Sisters' mobility and damage output. What? Huh?
Well first, let's start with the list:
Sisters of Waaaghttle - This List is Cancer (1999pts)
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness - WL w/ Invuln aura, Relic of +3" auras, Stormbolter and bolter
Uriah Jacobus
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Celestian Squad - 5x
Seraphim Squad - 10x
Dominion Squad - 5x with 5 Stormbolters
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness - Stormbolter and bolter (Brazzer relic if vs Psyker factions)
Missionary
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Initially this list didn't have the Exorcists in it, and ideally I would drop them in favor of taking another two squads of 10x no-upgrades Seraphim and another block of 15x BSS, but I can't reasonably expect anyone to purchase an addition 35 uglier-than-they-are-expensive models on top of the 125 that are already required.
The concept is that The Passion and Vessel of the Emperor are worded in a way that makes them absolutely perfect for an Orkz army, which means that the Sisters are now the best Orkz horde as a result. What's that you say? Perfect? But it's so bad!
Turn to the Fight Phase in your BRB. See all that text about "you can't choose a unit unless it charged or is in combat"? Yeah, ignore that. See the part about "You can't choose a unit that fell back or advanced"? Yeah, ignore that too. The Passion says "Nah bro, I got you, not only can you choose that unit that's not in combat to fight, you know what, go ahead and choose it twice. Because feth rules."
So you attempt The Passion on your Ebon Chalice Canoness with the Dialogus standing next to her for a 4+ rerollable, and then Vessel of the Emperor it onto... your entire army because everyone is now required to stay within coherency of the mandatory-deathstar: Celestine, your Invuln save Warlord, Uriah Jacobs and the Dialogus. So treat Sisters like the entire army is essentially a single unit. So 75% of the time your entire army now gets to move 3" then swing if they reached something, then move 3", then move 3" again, then swing if they reached something, then move 3". If your opponent is dumb enough to charge you, they're staring down around eight-hundred S4 hits the next turn, because you can fall back an inch, rapid fire with everyone who didn't fall back, charge everyone who didn't fall back (doesn't matter if the charge fails, Bloody Rose still procs), and then double-fight your way back in with both the units that fell back as well as the entire rest of the army.
The best part of all that? That each move, fight, consolidate and shooting action has to be taken individually. Hope your opponent brought a Snickers, because it's going to be a while.
So before turn one, you Vanguard move your Dominions so that they daisy chain from the Brazzer Canoness out to where the opponent's backline Psykers are if they have any. This gives you the ability to Deny the Witch it as well as Purity of Faith if it's super important.
Then on turn one, you move (not advance) your entire army forward, and try to throw some shade on any quantity of attacks units that are threatening to T3 (regular guard squads, etc.).
You don't skip your fight phase even if you don't have any units in combat, so you get to proc The Passion on the Ebon Chalice Canoness. If successful, throw the 3 CP to splash it to the entire army. Proceed to move the entire army an additional 12" toward the enemy line, which will put most of them in combat if your opponent went first, and put you directly in their face if you did.
Tip the clock to their time during the inevitable judge call. Unless your TO hates you on a personal level, the judge call will go in your favor.
Turn 2, proceed to bog their entire army down simultaneously in a sea of paint-chipped lead and spend the rest of the game slapping them to death with S3/4 hits and S4 bolt pistol shots. Walk your surplus Ebon Chalice girls and extra characters away from this mess and onto objectives.
Prepare to spend the rest of the game listening to your opponent whine about how stupid that is.
Respond by saying "I fully support not using the Beta Codex Acts of Faith system or the associated Acts of Faith stratagems" and then get your TO to let you go back to using the Index AoF system where you can make competitive armies that aren't the worst possible play experience available in 8th.
You can get a 3+/4++ lD10 unit that can deny like a psychicer and has a 4+ save against running way.
It requires a canoness with the 5++ WL trait, the brazier of holy fire, Celestine, a priest and a diaglolgus to do. At 141 points for 15 women with 3x storm boilers it becomes quite a slog for your opponent to deal with and chances are they wont be able to remove a unit of them a turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PuppetSoul wrote: Okay, now that there hasn't been a zeroday errata and the podcast is done, I can freely explain The Pink Tide to everyone.
Okay, now that there hasn't been a zeroday errata and the podcast is done, I can freely explain The Pink Tide to everyone.
As most of you have figured out by now, Sisters went from the fastest Imperium faction with significant burst damage output, to the slowest with some of the worst damage output, by the snap of GW's gauntlet. In exchange, everybody gets a 4++! If they jump through a bunch of hoops.
What some of you haven't noticed yet, is that there are additional hoops you can jump through to get back to the pre-nerf Sisters' mobility and damage output. What? Huh?
Well first, let's start with the list:
Sisters of Waaaghttle - This List is Cancer (1999pts)
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness - WL w/ Invuln aura, Relic of +3" auras, Stormbolter and bolter
Uriah Jacobus
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Celestian Squad - 5x
Seraphim Squad - 10x
Dominion Squad - 5x with 5 Stormbolters
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness - Stormbolter and bolter (Brazzer relic if vs Psyker factions)
Missionary
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Battle Sister Squad - 15x with 3 Stormbolters
Initially this list didn't have the Exorcists in it, and ideally I would drop them in favor of taking another two squads of 10x no-upgrades Seraphim and another block of 15x BSS, but I can't reasonably expect anyone to purchase an addition 35 uglier-than-they-are-expensive models on top of the 125 that are already required.
The concept is that The Passion and Vessel of the Emperor are worded in a way that makes them absolutely perfect for an Orkz army, which means that the Sisters are now the best Orkz horde as a result. What's that you say? Perfect? But it's so bad!
Turn to the Fight Phase in your BRB. See all that text about "you can't choose a unit unless it charged or is in combat"? Yeah, ignore that. See the part about "You can't choose a unit that fell back or advanced"? Yeah, ignore that too. The Passion says "Nah bro, I got you, not only can you choose that unit that's not in combat to fight, you know what, go ahead and choose it twice. Because feth rules."
So you attempt The Passion on your Ebon Chalice Canoness with the Dialogus standing next to her for a 4+ rerollable, and then Vessel of the Emperor it onto... your entire army because everyone is now required to stay within coherency of the mandatory-deathstar: Celestine, your Invuln save Warlord, Uriah Jacobs and the Dialogus. So treat Sisters like the entire army is essentially a single unit. So 75% of the time your entire army now gets to move 3" then swing if they reached something, then move 3", then move 3" again, then swing if they reached something, then move 3". If your opponent is dumb enough to charge you, they're staring down around eight-hundred S4 hits the next turn, because you can fall back an inch, rapid fire with everyone who didn't fall back, charge everyone who didn't fall back (doesn't matter if the charge fails, Bloody Rose still procs), and then double-fight your way back in with both the units that fell back as well as the entire rest of the army.
The best part of all that? That each move, fight, consolidate and shooting action has to be taken individually. Hope your opponent brought a Snickers, because it's going to be a while.
So before turn one, you Vanguard move your Dominions so that they daisy chain from the Brazzer Canoness out to where the opponent's backline Psykers are if they have any. This gives you the ability to Deny the Witch it as well as Purity of Faith if it's super important.
Then on turn one, you move (not advance) your entire army forward, and try to throw some shade on any quantity of attacks units that are threatening to T3 (regular guard squads, etc.).
You don't skip your fight phase even if you don't have any units in combat, so you get to proc The Passion on the Ebon Chalice Canoness. If successful, throw the 3 CP to splash it to the entire army. Proceed to move the entire army an additional 12" toward the enemy line, which will put most of them in combat if your opponent went first, and put you directly in their face if you did.
Tip the clock to their time during the inevitable judge call. Unless your TO hates you on a personal level, the judge call will go in your favor.
Turn 2, proceed to bog their entire army down simultaneously in a sea of paint-chipped lead and spend the rest of the game slapping them to death with S3/4 hits and S4 bolt pistol shots. Walk your surplus Ebon Chalice girls and extra characters away from this mess and onto objectives.
Prepare to spend the rest of the game listening to your opponent whine about how stupid that is.
Respond by saying "I fully support not using the Beta Codex Acts of Faith system or the associated Acts of Faith stratagems" and then get your TO to let you go back to using the Index AoF system where you can make competitive armies that aren't the worst possible play experience available in 8th.
....and this falls apart as soon as you're not playing on Planet Bowling Ball. I can't recall the last table I played on that would allow such a star to move and daisy chain properly without the terrain getting in the way.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Interested in hearing especially how Foot Horde sisters is competitive, and why? I've been keeping up with the thread, but I didn't read it super seriously...
is it really just the 4++ blob on tons of girlies?
Yes. That, and slow-playing your opponent until time runs out.
PuppetSoul wrote: The concept is that The Passion and Vessel of the Emperor are worded in a way that makes them absolutely perfect for an Orkz army, which means that the Sisters are now the best Orkz horde as a result. What's that you say? Perfect? But it's so bad!
Turn to the Fight Phase in your BRB. See all that text about "you can't choose a unit unless it charged or is in combat"? Yeah, ignore that. See the part about "You can't choose a unit that fell back or advanced"? Yeah, ignore that too. The Passion says "Nah bro, I got you, not only can you choose that unit that's not in combat to fight, you know what, go ahead and choose it twice. Because feth rules."
So you attempt The Passion on your Ebon Chalice Canoness with the Dialogus standing next to her for a 4+ rerollable, and then Vessel of the Emperor it onto... your entire army because everyone is now required to stay within coherency of the mandatory-deathstar: Celestine, your Invuln save Warlord, Uriah Jacobs and the Dialogus. So treat Sisters like the entire army is essentially a single unit. So 75% of the time your entire army now gets to move 3" then swing if they reached something, then move 3", then move 3" again, then swing if they reached something, then move 3". If your opponent is dumb enough to charge you, they're staring down around eight-hundred S4 hits the next turn, because you can fall back an inch, rapid fire with everyone who didn't fall back, charge everyone who didn't fall back (doesn't matter if the charge fails, Bloody Rose still procs), and then double-fight your way back in with both the units that fell back as well as the entire rest of the army.
You should have just posted this part.
This is interesting because I think it is accurate. So even if you aren't normally valid, if you get hit with Passion you get a Pile in, swing, consolidate twice for each unit that it hits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would check with your opponent/TO before doing it without a faq because it is almost certainly not intended to work like that and getting judged down during the event is not fun.
3 CP, a Faith Point, a dice roll, significant list-building concessions, and deliberate placement and movement.
Yep. Almost entirely unintended, but sure.
I think it's good even just for Passion on a unit though. An extra 12" of movement is not shabby and could eliminate some of the movement troubles for a lot of units.
I think it's good even just for Passion on a unit though. An extra 12" of movement is not shabby and could eliminate some of the movement troubles for a lot of units.
There's no way they didn't realize this was an option during playtesting, when they replaced double-shooting with +1 BS so that they could keep The Vessel of the Emperor in (undoubtedly because "it scales well").
Unfortunately you can't splash The Passion onto any of the AdMini melee units, so they still need a deepstrike strat.
And if they errata away The Passion, then Acts of Faith just cease to provide any significant value to the army besides +1 BS to the Blessed Bolts squad and morale immunity to one squad per morale phase, and it'd be worth it to just roll the dice at the beginning of the game and treat that as the result for all Tests of Patience provided all your girls are from the same Order.
I think it's good even just for Passion on a unit though. An extra 12" of movement is not shabby and could eliminate some of the movement troubles for a lot of units.
There's no way they didn't realize this was an option during playtesting, when they replaced double-shooting with +1 BS so that they could keep The Vessel of the Emperor in (undoubtedly because "it scales well")..
Seeing they went "oops" with deep striking primarches I wouldn't be so sure about what they did and did not realize. Their playtesting isn't what most would consider playtesting. Nothing at trying to break game or finding loop holes. More akin to playing in game club. Which kinda makes sense seeing they are amateurs.
Its not going to be as strong as shooting, so i dont see it getting faq, we already talked about this, players are already talking about Celestian squads in Bloody Rose rushing into melee with fire support from Serahpim and Doms.
Amishprn86 wrote: Its not going to be as strong as shooting, so i dont see it getting faq, we already talked about this, players are already talking about Celestian squads in Bloody Rose rushing into melee with fire support from Serahpim and Doms.
It isn't the assault part of it that is worrysome. It's that I can move my entire army 12" in the assault phase without penalty for 3 CP. If anyone's stupid enough to be near them, then they get hit, but mostly it doubles or triples the movement of most of your force for 3CP.
Rynner wrote: You can get a 3+/4++ lD10 unit that can deny like a psychicer and has a 4+ save against running way.
It requires a canoness with the 5++ WL trait, the brazier of holy fire, Celestine, a priest and a diaglolgus to do. At 141 points for 15 women with 3x storm boilers it becomes quite a slog for your opponent to deal with and chances are they wont be able to remove a unit of them a turn.
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PuppetSoul wrote: Okay, now that there hasn't been a zeroday errata and the podcast is done, I can freely explain The Pink Tide to everyone.
Why not? Do they not have bolters? This is the big problem I think that's getting ignored when people talk about horde sisters lists:
The 4++ doesn't really matter. It's not any better on defense than it was when we could actually move the goddam army around the table. How many people are really shooting AP-2, AP-3(in the old setup MSU sisters almost always had cover because 25mm bases.) weapons at battle sisters? Sure, you'll do what every horde army does at first, gunk up balanced lists. But once you run up against a guilliman gunline, or an Ork horde, or even just someone who realizes they lock up half your army with a rhino, the lists will fall down exactly the same as it did pre-codex.
If it works it's because the meta is revolving around knights at the moment, not because Horde Sisters are suddenly massively better, being 16% more difficult to kill with RFBC.
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Amishprn86 wrote: Its not going to be as strong as shooting, so i dont see it getting faq, we already talked about this, players are already talking about Celestian squads in Bloody Rose rushing into melee with fire support from Serahpim and Doms.
Those units all move at very different speeds and are incredibly unlikely to be hitting peoples lines at the same time. Also, Celestians are just gakky bloodclaws and those don't see any play either. People can talk about it all they want, that doesn't make them good.
You guys have seriously gone off the deep end in your quests to be the uberzbest! GL rules-lawyering that in a game, and gl getting a follow-up game from that person when it happens.
Seriously, stuff like that makes it so hard for GW to make interesting rules... frothing hordes of munchkins trying their darnedest to win regardless the cost or interaction, forcing them to constantly issue erratas because common sense and social contract left the building years ago.
I played the codex, brought about 85 sisters, and rides for just over 20 of them. I had a great time, we had a great fight, and my opponent didn't feel steamrolled by crummy rules that made the army powerful, but was about as fun of an interaction as tides of 'zerkers running over armies turn 1 in the early days of 8th.
The codex played sisters-y, the power can be fixed. I'm honestly glad that the power level of the codex is more down the middle, maybe a little lower if you honestly want to hammer it hard, but gives a good feel of playing Sisters of Battle when on the table. That's my opinion on all of this bickering and fussing, so... feel free to reject it and move on. But this whole mentality is getting irritating to hear all the time.
Seriously... Grey Knights better than Sisters? I honestly lol'd until I realized he was likely serious.
She came back and engaged again, but eventually lost, again. Overall I couldn't compete with his mobility and he was able to dictate when 
