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Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 17:47:59


Post by: JNAProductions


Note: This is a WIP first post. This is solely my own judgement on the units-please please PLEASE contribute your own thoughts, and I'll update the post!

Army Special Rules

Death To The False Emperor-Gain extra attacks on a 6+ in the Fight phase when fighting Imperium units. Handy, but nothing to build around, generally.

Daemonic Ritual-Summoning! It sucks, generally.

Despoilers Of The Galaxy-Objective Secured. On Troops only.

Units Overview

HQs

Spoiler:
Abaddon The Despoiler A+
He's the reason to run Black Legion. The ONLY way to get full rerolls to hit in a CSM army (at least in any decent area), as well as auto-pass morale in a 12" bubble. He's the core of our most competitive builds, usually with Cultists.

Fabius Bile C
He's okay. Nothing special. His main shtick is that he can enhance infantry units, giving them +1 Strength (okay), Toughness (great!) or Attack (okay). But you also have to roll a d6 for every model, and the unit takes a mortal wound for each 6. He's not AWFUL... But he's not good.

Also, he has a special rule where he doesn't break Legion bonuses, despite not being a Legion Character himself.

Kharn The Betrayer A
Kharn is a big ol' beatstick, and damn good at it for cheap. A sneaky way of using him is to run him next to big Daemon Engines or tanks, since he gives full rerolls to hit (just like Abaddon) in a 1" bubble (not like Abaddon). Good countercharge threat and babysitter for big boys, as well as useful for running up the field and murdering.

Lucius The Eternal D
A beatstick Emperor's Children Lord. A mediocre beatstick at that. Hard pass.

Cypher F (B Without Battle Brothers)
Cypher has some nice pistols, and makes a great Warlord. He does not count as being slain on a 2+, so he's great for denying your enemy points.

But, with the Battle Brothers rule... He can only be taken in a Vanguard of Fallen or an Aux detachment. So he sucks.

Huron Blackheart B
A Psychic Lord for Red Corsairs. He has a Heavy Flamer and can, if his Familiar is alive, cast two powers instead of one. He's okay. Nothing special. Note that the familiar can take a wound for him, so if he gets Lascannon sniped, put the first on the familiar so the d6 is wasted.

Daemon Prince A
A MASSIVE beatstick, coming in at 8 wounds for Character protection for days. Talons are almost always your best bet. Gives reroll 1s to friendly <LEGION> units that are nearby, so does have some minor buffing. Wings used to be mandatory, but with Fly nerfs, an 8" move walking Prince isn't an awful way to save points.

Chaos Lord B
Gives reroll 1s to friendly <LEGION> units nearby. Surprisingly killy in CC with the right gear, but... Mostly used for rerolling 1s.

Can take a jump pack for deep striking and better move.

Terminator Lord B-
Slightly more durable Lord, but you have Character protection. Still a good choice, but not AS good. Can also deepstrike.

Sorcerer B+
A two-cast, one-deny psyker. Oftentimes essential to non-Khorne armies, since we've got some great powers. Can take a jump pack.

terminator Sorcerer B
See Terminator Lord. Helps a Sorcerer slightly more, since going from 4 to 5 wounds is good, but overall... Generally not worth it.

Dark Apostle C+
Our Chaplains. Full rerolls to-hit in the Fight phase for <LEGION> units nearby, and grants his Leadership 9 to nearby <LEGION> units. Not terrible with MSU Cultists, but generally not worth it.

Exalted Champion B
Full rerolls to-wound in the Fight Phase for <LEGION> units nearby. Pretty great, for a melee force.

Warpsmith C+
Can heal friendly vehicles or deal mortal wounds to enemy vehicles. Not very good, but very cheap.


Troops

Spoiler:
Chaos Space Marines B
Can go up to squad size of 20.Can double up on specials/heavies at 10 dudes. Can go CC focused, exchanging Boltgun for Chainsword. Overall, suffers from the issues all Marines suffer from, but okay if you work around them.

Cultists A
Our workhorse troop. Goes from 10 dudes all the way to 40. (If you run 40 man blobs, HAVE A WAY TO BYPASS MORALE. Otherwise, you dead.) Can go CC focused with Pistol and CC Weapon, or shooting with an Autogun. Absolutely stellar option to buff. Prescience, Abaddon, and Veterans of the Long War on a 40-man Cultist squad within 12" of something is 80 shots, hitting on 3s, rerolling, wounding at +1. That's nearly 8 wounds to your average KNIGHT.

Cultists, if you want them to do work, have to be built around. But they absolutely rock your socks off if you do.


Elites

Spoiler:
Fallen F
Same issues as Cypher. Can take a lot of special weapons (Plasma), but not worth slotting in usually. They can reroll 1s when hitting in shooting if they didn't move, so that's nice.

Berzerkers A-
They kill, they maim, they don't actually burn. With the ability to fight twice every round at S5 base (with a S+1 AP-1 Chainaxe, if you want) they buratlize whatever they come into contact with. Good combos include giving the Champ a powerfist, for 6 S10 attacks a round (8, if you're World Eaters and charged).

They become troops in a World Eaters detachment.

Rubric Marines C
They have AP-2 bolters, a 5+ invuln, and +1 to saves against D1. That's it. Not worth it.

Plague Marines C
They're T5 and have a 5+ FNP. They have a lot of options, and none of them are worth it in this Dex. Pass.

Noise Marines C+
They have a lot of ignores cover dakka. What's really nice is that, when they die, they can shoot, including throwing a grenade! Run them near a character, get them killed in CC, and toss a bunch of Krak grenades at someone shiny, since Character protection only works in the shooting phase. They are troops in an Emperor's Children detachment.

Chosen B
Cheap as chips now, barely more expensive than regular Marines. With +2 attacks (you did take the free chainsword, right?) and +1 Leadership, as well as more options, definitely worth taking if you like Marines.

Mutilators D
A slow melee unit with no way to increase their charge abilities. Deepstrike, but 9" charges are not reliable. They're straight up worse than Obliterators-S5 base isntead of 6, same AP, same Damage, and less shots. Since they come in units of 3, you can't even take solo dudes and drop them as a distraction. Hard pass.

Terminators B
Decent amount of dakka on a deepstriking, somewhat durable platform for not too expensive.

Possessed C
7" move on a melee unit is not enough. They're S5 AP-2, true, but with only d3 attacks... Berzerkers do better. Always Berzerkers.

The only advantage they have over Zerkers is 2 Wounds and the ability to be more than Khorne, but it's not enough, in my opinion. They are also Daemons, so benefit a LOT from an allied Daemons detachment.

Helbrute B+
Very cheap now! Decent in CC with the right gear, decent at shooting with other gear, can be kitted to be okay enough at both. Power Scourge and a ranged weapon of choice is my preferred loadout.


Fast Attack

Spoiler:
Bikers C+
Fast, moderately durable. Lots of bolter shots. A good combo is Renegades with flamers-advance, d6 auto hits, and charge. But... Generally not worth it.

Chaos Spawn B-
7" move on a fast attack? Okay...

T5, W4, and a decent amount of respectable attacks. Spawn do work, for a reasonable price.

Raptors D+
Plasma delivery system, and pretty much nothing more. T4 3+ W1 is not durable, and they're not good in close combat. Drop 'em, melt something with plasma, and watch them die. Maybe try to tie something valuable up, if you're lucky.

Warp Talons C
2 attacks with their dual claws, over the Raptors 1. Also have Lightning Claws and a 5+ invuln. But, most importantly, they deny overwatch on the turn they deepstrike. So, charge EVERYTHING YOU CAN when you deepstrike, and hopefully tie something nice up. Can be made Khorne and, if you have a Khorne Daemons detachment, benefit from the Locus to reroll failed charges.


Heavy Supports

Spoiler:
Havocs B+
Devastators, but they can take Special weapons too. Effective at what they do. Pair with a Lord or someone.

Obliterators A
Effectively 3 wound terminators with S6+d3, AP-d3, Dd3 (rolled once for the whole squad) guns at Assault 4. They are a phenomenal unit.

Best as Slaanesh, to shoot twice.

Chaos Land Raider D-
It stops working the moment someone touches it in close combat. Carries a lot of stuff, but Rhinos do its job better.

Defiler B-
Cheap enough to be quite good. Scary enough in CC that it can't be ignored, and at T7 W14 3+ 5++... It ain't half bad!

Forgefiend D
Outperformed by other heavy support options.Just plain not worth it. It is a daemon, which can be nice, but... Eh...

Maulerfiend C+
Fast and reasonably tough, and dead killy in CC. Generally better with Lasher Tendrils, since a 4+ WS/BS makes weight of attacks worth more than anything else.

Chaos Vindicator D
Demolisher cannons aren't good.

Chaos Predator C
Like a Forgefiend, but better. Still not super good.


Dedicated Transport and Flyer

Spoiler:
Rhino B
Great for transporting, and eating Overwatch! Useless for almost anything else, though it does have an ok amount of dakka with a Havoc Launcher. But it's cheap, so fill it up with a nasty payload and get killing!

Heldrake C
Standard Daemon Engine statline, but just... Not very good. With only 4 attacks MAX, even at WS 3+ on the top bracket, it won't do any killing in close combat. And it doesn't have near enough shots to do anything in shooting. Only main use is tying stuff up turn one, which it CAN DO with its 30" move.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 17:57:53


Post by: Not Online!!!


Chaos spawn still B? Even when they are only 25ppm now?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 18:45:52


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Chaos Marines should be an F for sure. They're pointless especially after the Chosen point decrease.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 19:01:06


Post by: lindsay40k


Daemon Princes A+? Not sure about that. They’re viable, but their DG, TS and CD variants are significantly stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure that Mutilators are two whole tiers above Fallen. Reasoning:

- I don’t think an awkward faction makes a self-rerolling plasma squad F tier

- Mutilators are an M4 melee unit, and the price cut only turns them from a chocolate teapot into a cheap chocolate teapot. If you can deploy Nurglings around a winner-takes-all objectives, they’re not terrible to drop on it as a hard line. But what other niches do they have?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 19:12:55


Post by: akaean


As a word of stylistic advice, I would increase the breadth of your Spoiler tags. Basically encompass your review of all HQs under one big spoiler tag.

The way you have it now, your actual analysis isn't long enough to justify the Spoiler tag in any meaningful way. It actually may take up more space with the spoiler tags than it would if you just left the text in. I think Spoiler Tags are important in these types of guides so that players can navigate them effectively and quickly get to the section they are interested in. However your useage is not really accomplishing that goal in a meaningful way. That said its an easy fix, just put all your HQ analysis under a single spoiler. That way you seal off large chuncks of space and someone can quickly switch over to the Troops if they want to review those instead.

I would also like to see a bit more detail and reasoning. I think your guide could really do with a (probably spoilered) reasoning for how you are assigning ratings. As well as more unit analysis. At this early stage of your tactica, you haven't really taught me how to build an army. For example, this is what you have to say about Terminators

JNAProductions wrote: "Decent amount of dakka on a deepstriking, somewhat durable platform for not too expensive."

Okay, but why though?

- How should I deploy them? Are they only useful deep striking?
- In what ways are they somewhat durable? What are they durable against?
- What counters terminators? What playstyles do you need to watch out for if you are using termies?

These are the questions that people are looking for when they open a tactica. If you are not providing guidance on this, that is a flaw with your list. Indeed, look at 1d4chan, while I don't agree with everything they write, their tactics article does a pretty good job of laying out the basic strengths of each unit in significantly more detail than is offered here.

EXCERPT from 1d4chan on Terminators
Spoiler:
Chaos Terminators - Now with 2 wounds in addition to their 2+/5++, 2 attacks, and much-improved deep strike ability. Each one of them can take a combi-weapon and power weapon, so you can adapt them for your killy needs, and one in every five can take a reaper autocannon or a heavy flamer. An important thing to note is that unlike the Loyalists, we can take power weapons and don't have to pay through the nose for Power Fists. They now come in a minimum squad size of five, which combined with the greatly increased prices of combi-weapons means that the old three-man Termicide is probably a thing of the past.
A sorcerer (with either a jump pack or terminator armour) dropping in alongside them is an excellent combination as Warptime will almost guarantee (you have to roll a 4 or more) that the terminators will make the charge. No longer possible, unfortunately. However, it does mean that Termies will now be viable for a variety of strategies beyond Alphastrike.
Taking Khornate Terminators and giving them an Icon of Wrath does still make Alphastrike an option. Casting Prescience will allow you to fire both parts of a combi-weapon and/or hit with power/chain fists without penalty! Sadly, Termie Champions can no longer dual wield melee weapons(Lightning Claws excluded), so say goodbye to the Fist/Claw build (though he does have 3A). No worries the new Codex brought this. Take 10 Terminators with combi-plasma, and power swords. Mark them with SLAANESH and teleport them in and activate Endless Cacophony for 40 shots S7/AP-3/D1 shots. Take a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince for re-rolling 1's to hit, and Sorcerer or Daemon Prince for +1 to hit with Prescience. For maximum cheese use Veteran of the Long War for +1 to wound and overcharge the plasma for 40 shots S8/AP-3/D2!
Alternate take: While terminators are obviously quite good this edition, they can eat up points fast. A 10 model unit with just combi-plasma will come close to 500 points. It's probably best to keep them focused on one role and diversify the rest of your army so you can get the maximum number of command points.
ALTERNATIVE alternative take: Do not be fooled by their 2+ and 2 wounds; these guys can die SUPER fast. Plasma EQ weapons are guaranteed to send them packing back to the Eye of Terror. For this reason, they now truly work the way they are supposed to in fluff: DROP DOWN AND INSTANTLY MURDERIZE A SINGLE TARGET. Unless you want to spend an assload of points on 10 man combi-plas squads with Delightful Agonies, be VERY careful when you throw them down. Throw them in too early and your opponent will be both too heavily screened and have much of their remaining army to wipe them. Send them in too late and you'll have lost too much from your opponents killy units. Timing, positioning, and specialization is key. Unless you put them in a land Raider, in which case you can GO CRAZY, as the firepower from a Land Raider will both WRECK the various threats to your big dudes and bring can them MUCH closer than 9" to a desirable target.
Note: With the minimum squad size being five, if you want a Terminators/Lord party bus you can, per the new FAQ, field an understrength squad and only pay for four models. Nice. (only when taken as auxiliary detachment, meaning -1CP)

You can immediately see that far greater amount of detail they have gone into, and I feel like I have an idea of what I can expect out of termies by reading it. Taken with a grain of salt though, because from this passage it might appear that Terminators are not in fact the Hot Garbage that I believe they are. But I didn't write this, and if I were writing the guide I would probably spend a long time detailing just why temrinators are hot garbage in 8E. The point is not that I agree with 1d4chans tactica on terminators, just that I can tell that effort was put into analyzing this unit and its combos. I just don't get that level of depths from your guide, and why would I use your guide over 1d4chan if at this point all you are doing is providing even simpler analysis on individual units. At this point your list right now just seems like an overview of your opinions on different units without showing us why you feel that way.

I think the problem is you are doing a schtick in a market that is currently saturated. What you want to do when writing a tactica is create a vision of how the army should be played. Or several visions, because there are multiple successful versions. And explain to players how those armies play and the different choices that are available in that playstyle.

A World Eaters Zerker party bus list is going to play different from a Black Legion Las Cannon Gunline. Right? The support units you want in either style are going to be different? Yea? I mean yes, that is self evident- if you play the army and are familiar with how the units work and work together. But if you are building a tactica, you need to explain these things to people. The people looking to tactica are newcomers to the army who don't have a lot of experience building an army or knowing how it plays when it is on the table. Explaining how units work together is what players need, far more than they need a simple 1 sentence simplified overview of the individual units.

Second, this type of list is also increasingly out of place in the wonderful world of soup. Because competitive gaming is seldom played mono faction v mono faction (much to my personal dismay). So you need to identify allies, and units competition with allies. Let me give you an example.

Lets talk about Cultists. Yes, they are the best troop choice in the codex. But now they are 5ppm. At this point, we need to be comparing them to Renegade Militia (unless FW is banned for some reason, which is increasingly uncommon even in higher level tournaments). A renegade militia maintains its 4ppm price tag, and chaos can effectively run their own 32 man detachment for 5 CP that those dirty loyalists can do. Cultists still have their advantages, but it is worth considering their alternatives. I bring up cultists because your section on Cultists does do several things I was looking for. Notably a bit of insight into the strategy of actually deploying them. Despite being a bit to simplistic for my liking. You mention some of the buffs and what they do. What you are missing is things like using Tide of Traitors to place the squad into the perfect position, etc. You also don't talk about the downsides to those abilities, like draining a large number of CPs, and preventing those strategems from being used on units like Obliterators or Auto Cannon Havocs.

tl;dr go into more detail, really get into the nitty gritty and explain how the army works. Don't be afraid to talk about allies, and how allying say Slaanesh Daemons with the Cacophony spell is hilarious with a squad of Nurgle Night Lords Raptors. Talk about what allies offer the army, what the army offers its allies, etc. Really make those spoiler tags worth it by giving us lots of that sweet tender juicy insight.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 19:34:12


Post by: slave.entity


I like this concept. I'd be interested to see a section that details the list archetypes that are currently placing highly at tournaments along with a brief description of how they function.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 19:35:12


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 lindsay40k wrote:
Daemon Princes A+? Not sure about that. They’re viable, but their DG, TS and CD variants are significantly stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure that Mutilators are two whole tiers above Fallen. Reasoning:

- I don’t think an awkward faction makes a self-rerolling plasma squad F tier

- Mutilators are an M4 melee unit, and the price cut only turns them from a chocolate teapot into a cheap chocolate teapot. If you can deploy Nurglings around a winner-takes-all objectives, they’re not terrible to drop on it as a hard line. But what other niches do they have?

Fallen have absolutely no mobility, and now compete with Chosen who are the same exact price.

Mutilators are now only 105 points total. At this price tag it isn't a terrible investment to Deep Strike with such a small profile and try and make a charge. If they don't, they're actually durable for the price now (35 points for 3 wounds at 2+/5++).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/09 20:52:30


Post by: Nature's Minister


Tacticals rated too well, same with terminators and mutilators and possesssed


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 00:06:58


Post by: ZergSmasher


The only reason Possessed are seen as bad is because Berzerkers exist. Possessed actually synergize with different units. Sure, they aren't the crazy blender that Berzerkers are, but just because Berzerkers are amazing doesn't automatically mean that Possessed are trash.

Possessed are Daemons, and so can benefit from taking Chaos Daemon allies (the loci pretty much all work well with them, except for the Tzeentch one which is garbage anyway). Plus, the various God-aligned spells can increase their durability (-1 to hit for Nurgle, +1 invul save for Tzeentch, 5+ FnP from Slaanesh). In addition to all of that, they are infantry and so benefit from the various Legion traits if in a pure detachment (good ones are World Eaters, Renegades, and Emperor's Children). The main downfall for them is their higher cost when compared to Berzerkers, and their swingy damage output.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 01:10:20


Post by: JNAProductions


Okay, edited the spoilers. moving on to Heavy Support.

Should be basically done now, at least in brief.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 01:26:00


Post by: Skullphoquer


 ZergSmasher wrote:
The only reason Possessed are seen as bad is because Berzerkers exist. Possessed actually synergize with different units. Sure, they aren't the crazy blender that Berzerkers are, but just because Berzerkers are amazing doesn't automatically mean that Possessed are trash.

Possessed are Daemons, and so can benefit from taking Chaos Daemon allies (the loci pretty much all work well with them, except for the Tzeentch one which is garbage anyway). Plus, the various God-aligned spells can increase their durability (-1 to hit for Nurgle, +1 invul save for Tzeentch, 5+ FnP from Slaanesh). In addition to all of that, they are infantry and so benefit from the various Legion traits if in a pure detachment (good ones are World Eaters, Renegades, and Emperor's Children). The main downfall for them is their higher cost when compared to Berzerkers, and their swingy damage output.


*cough* D3 attacks. Roll a . Spend 1CP and roll a again.


I would love to play a army out of real chaos space marines like possessed, multilators and oblitirators but their randomness sucks.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 02:41:20


Post by: Nature's Minister


Obliterators are pretty good at least. Rule of three and deep strike nerf hurt pretty badly tho. I rolled 15 of them with a tzeentch daemon prince to reroll 1s for hits and wounds. Faceroll to victory.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 03:24:21


Post by: eternalxfl


Has there been any indication as to what formations, stratagems, and other goodies that chaos will gain access to with the Vigilus book?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 03:43:04


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Wow, after trying to create some lists. I really think Chaos has improved. People are moaning about how everyone’s lists decreased in points. But If you are willing to zoom in on those units with big point decreases. CSM has a heck of a lot of points to play with now.

Consider Hellbrutes. I believe 3 are almost auto take now. A missile launcher, reaper autocannon hellbrute is a super cheap 90 points. And this is for something which is super flexible, this 90 point hellbrute never degrades and get hit armor, infantry, anything. If the opponent spent his anti armor shooting at this, its 90 points. Go ahead, be my guest.

And we have fire frenzy! And we can stick a cheap chaos lord in the middle of 3 hellbrutes. 3 hellbrutes, two shooty, and a third with a hellbrute fist or scrouge with a chaos lord in the middle is a pretty awesome firebase. That’s a lot of shooting when you add in fire frenzy and the lord gives rerolls 1. Between the chaos lord melee and that one hellbrute with a scourge, you can’t just charge in some cheap stuff to tie this up. They can and will wreck even fairly substantial melee forces. And the whole set up is 300 plus point for 1 chaos lord and 3 hellbrutes. At most maybe 400. Its amazing. And this is in Elite slots. So now we have something in elite slots which are really really good as almost as shooty as our heavy support stuff. I mean, do the math, if I have 2 missile reaper autocannon hellbrutes and 1 missile, scourge brute. And I use fire frenzy every turn. That’s 4 missile launcher shots and 12 reaper autocannon shots every turn. That’s essentially the fire output of one missile launcher havoc squad and one and a half auto cannon havoc squads.

And then we come to our daemon engines. People keep saying everything is relative. But loyalists don’t have daemon engines right? A defiler with defiler scourge and reaper autocannon is an eye popping 142 points. This is on something that is 14 wounds with a 5++ save. Consider the forgefiend. People thought it was too expensive last time. Now, if you take a forgefiend with two hades autocannon and one ectoplasma cannon on its head, that’s … 160 points. You don’t even need to baby sit the thing with a chaos lord, just spam daemon forge every turn on it.

A heavy support “fire base” of one defiler (142 points) and 2 tri head forgefiends (160 points). Is just 462 points. And good luck not only can it shoot decently enough, and is resilient (5++ with infernal regen). The defiler packs a heck of a wallop. So, if you want to try and overcome this firebase by melee, again, be my guest! I am not even considering the scenario where we spam 3 defilers and 3 forgefiends and 3 hellbrutes.

And even if we went 3 defilers, 3 forgefiends and 3 hellbrutes for a heck of a lot of armor and shooting, we would still have tons of points left for troops and HQ. You want to spam 80 cultists with this, you have the points! You want to go full power armor with this, we can do that too. This really needs to be explored.

And you want to worry about some big ass Castellan? Then we will play objectives. I got tons of armor all cheap as chips floating around. That big cannon of his can at most kill one daemon engine a turn. In the mean time, the rest of my armor will be running rings around him and claiming all the objectives. And I can shoot back with a lot of my stuff too. So, bring it I say. So what if I can’t bring down a castellan in one turn. I can sure as heck beat a Castellan list via objectives. Actually, a triple defiler, forgefiend and hellbrute list may have enough fire power to take down a super heavy in two turns if you spam fire frenzy and daemonforge every turn. (I haven’t done the math).
I am really quite excited about CSM which I haven’t been for a very long time. It is true that other factions have seen drops too. But have they seen the kind of point drops that we have? Of course, if you insist on ignoring all these with huge point drops and focus only on cultists, then of course we would be grumbling. But just look at what we gained. For the first time, I am excited about fielding stuff like hellbrutes, forgefiends, and defilers.

And this is just based on a non spamming army. If we wanted to take spear head detachment, take different legions, we can have more than 3 hellbrutes and more than 6 daemon engines in the list. And this also doesn't even take into account Chaos soup lists. Imagine 3 hellbrutes, 3 defilers, 3 forgefiends combined with another deathguard spearhead of 2 hellbrutes and 3 plague burst crawlers. There is so much armor it will take forever even for a Castellan to go through all of this.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 04:22:38


Post by: orkswubwub


Are there any consensus units that work well against grotesques? Mathhammering across chaos factions its hard to find something that trades up against 6T 4++ and a 6FNP first turn on 4W. Even oblits on average will kill maybe 2 and most lists are running 30. 8points per wound 6T 4++ is hard to deal with, only moves 7 inches but with advance will be in charge range against most lists(?) by turn 3.

What have people been using? I think the most favorable mathhammer so far was looking at pink horrors as AP isn't really a concern but the numbers aren't stellar. Trying to find some units that can handle the copy and paste competitive IG IK soup, grotesque spam and tyranid that is basically the meta currently....


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 05:16:27


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Autocannons are the perfect weapon as they won't be paying for AP values they won't use.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 06:48:41


Post by: McGibs


A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too:

Hellwright on Abayant: 136pts (down more than 40). Now we can actually run a proper Dark Mechanicus HQ that doesn't cost as much as a daemonprince. His aura of +1A and +1Ld to Helforged units might be a bit scatterbrained seeing as he can't repair them, but he CAN repair any other chaos vehicle, and even renegade knights! More importantly, he can actually keep up with them at M8", unlike the bargain warpsmith (who's also good). His guns also pack some serious punch at close range, making him one of the few shooty HQs.

Inferno Predator (that is, Inferno cannon, 2x heavy flamers, and combiflamer): 161pts (down almost 40) for what is essentially a jacked up chaos hellhound. 5D6 autohits is nothing to scoff at, especially when 2D6 of them are 2 damage. Seems right nasty for burning... pretty much anything. It might be short range, but M12" helps out a lot with that. Oh. It also has powerswords for treads.

Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 07:15:25


Post by: drakerocket


I honestly think there might be some merit at this point both to combiflamer chosen and/or plasma chosen delivered via LR or rhino could be a serious thing at this juncture.

Combiflamer chosen are what, 18 points? So a unit of 5 90 points) world eater chosen are delivering an average of (3.5x5= 16.5 + 10 on 4+ so 5) 21.5 strength 4 hits on the shot and then something like 21x.6666...roughly 14 str 4 hits in melee. So round up, 36 str 4 hits, kills 22 guardman, or 88 points.

I mean, I'm not saying it will break the meta or anything, but I don't think it's small potatoes either. Not a lot of stuff makes up its points killing guardsman. Same profile kills 12 marines as well or 3 termies.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 09:27:03


Post by: slave.entity


 McGibs wrote:
A couple rough gems popping out of the forgeworld point adjustments as well as the obvious dreadnought flavours. I think these are worth another look too:


Achilles Landraider: 355ish pts (down more than 50pts!) for what is frankly, a ridiculous tank. 19wounds, T8, 2+ save, its also got an insane 4++. Add to that 4 multimelta shots and 3D3 mortal wound soulburn mortar that ignores LoS, some transport capacity, and power-treads, and I think this thing is better than a Leviathan. Actually, this is the thing I'd take to eat Leviathans. It's only downside is lack of machinespirit (why FW... whyyyyy), but that can be mitigated a bit with stratagems, prescience, and nearby lords/princes. Once it's moved for a turn or two, it shouldnt have to move anymore.


Part of what makes leviathans so good is the bulk of their firepower can be unloaded at 36-48" range while it sits safely behind a screen of infantry to prevent from getting charged and effectively completely removed from the game. The reductions to land raiders are certainly nice, but I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say it outperforms leviathans. Once an Achilles gets into range of firing at anything worthwhile, it'd practically be touching the enemy screen

EDIT: Oops I was looking at the profile for the loyalist Achilles. Disregard the above. The 48" soulburner mortar is definitely interesting. Averages 2.67 mortal wounds effectively anywhere on the board every single turn without exposing itself. Roughly taking 6 turns to kill a 14w model. Still not sure it outperforms a leviathan for the points cost but it's certainly better than the loyalist one

I often run 2-3 double soulburner decimators for fun and while they seem scary on paper, I can't say I've ever been impressed with their damage output given how expensive they are. They are essentially very expensive targeted smites that can miss, on a platform that is relatively fragile and vulnerable to charges. The Achilles doesn't have the fragility problem, but it's also just not that much damage for a huge amount of points. Even with the points reduction, that's a massive premium for those 2.67 "anywhere" mortal wounds per turn.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 11:52:20


Post by: Raichase


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, after trying to create some lists. I really think Chaos has improved. People are moaning about how everyone’s lists decreased in points. But If you are willing to zoom in on those units with big point decreases. CSM has a heck of a lot of points to play with now.

Consider Hellbrutes.[...]


I've always backed my Helbrute (spoiler alert, I'm a very casual gamer these days, have not played tournaments since I dunno, 5th?) in my games against my necron friend. The first time he saw it we made it into combat and... well, let's just say that it didn't go well for him. So now every game my Helbrute is a wonderful distraction Carnifex that sadly usually ends up dying for the cause. Having them get CHEAPER is totally okay in my book, I'll strongly consider converting up three of them now to run as a Vanguard Detachment all on their own alongside a Battalion of CSMs or Daemons. The only thing I don't like is that they have the -1 to moving and firing heavy weapons, but I can understand it from Gee Dubs point of view - they needed to give the inexorable advance rule to the Death Guard Helbrutes to set them out, and to be fair, in the fluff, the Chaos Dreadnoughts have always been completely mad, running forward, confusing friend from foe and often shooting wildly at anyone within co-ee of them out of sheer blood rage. So yeah, they're probably not the most accurate of units when moving and firing.

I'm super keen to see what I can do with Helbrutes. I think there's a lot of potential there.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 12:01:32


Post by: Cptn_Cronssant


Still fairly new to 8th but what do people think of the Khornate Party Bus tactic? How easy is it to counter?

Basically you bring Khârn or a DA with an Exalted Champion in a Rhino/LR with eight Chainaxe Berserkers. Add power fists/swords on the characters too. You fight twice with rerollable hits and wounds, on top of the attacks from your characters. Just make sure you let the Berserkers go first if you’re bringing Khârn.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 12:08:13


Post by: tneva82


Something you should learn is tri-pointing and do it when possible. It goes roughly like this:

a) declare one unit as target for charge. Have nearby another unit as well. Do NOT declare that unit as charge target
b) during charge movement either ensure you have 3 models near the unit that was not charged or at least that 2nd round you can pile in/consolidiate toward it.
c) goal is to end up with your movements so that at least one model from unit you did not declare charge is surrounded by 3 of your models like this.

.....B
.....E...
....B..B

As you did not declare charge you cannot attack that squad(it will attack you though) but he also cannot fall back out of combat(can't move through enemy models) thus his unit cannot fall back and thus you won't get blasted out of table. Fighting twice helps ensuring this one works.

Doesn't work vs anything with fly and anybody that can move unit in psychic phase(like orks) can get around that but a) not every army can do that b) it can still fail.

Biggest issues will be chaff making charges against anything worthwhile hard and being blasted to bits. Above trick helps vs both(turns chaff into trap of sort). Not going to work always especially if opponent knows it but keep an eye for it.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 13:12:47


Post by: Latro_


I'm torn a bit now in my world eaters list to either take a dual power scourge helbute for 130 - like 12 attacks on the charge or a defiler with scourge for 142, not as many attacks and slower but a lot more durable and potential against big stuff

hmmmm its tricky?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 13:14:45


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Latro_ wrote:
I'm torn a bit now in my world eaters list to either take a dual power scourge helbute for 130 - like 12 attacks on the charge or a defiler with scourge for 142, not as many attacks and slower but a lot more durable and potential against big stuff

hmmmm its tricky?


Why not both? The cuts in pts were substantial. But for allround purposes i'd go with the defiler since it always atleast can shoot.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 13:58:36


Post by: BoomWolf


That loadout doesn't seem legal when I'm looking on the sheet.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 14:13:14


Post by: akaean


I am really excited for the Defiler and Hellbrute price cuts. As an Emperor's Children player with two Sonic Dreads and a Defiler, the price cuts there alone will save me 100 points on my 2000 point list... which is madness.

I am also happy about the price reductions on Raptors and Chaos Bikers. Bikers are down another handful of points, Raptors are down as well. Plasma Raptors before had a niche of being a budget contender for Obliterators. Now with further price reductions to both bodies and war gear, they are even cheaper. This makes them a bit more viable. Same with Bikers. Not that these units will be able to replace Obliterators, but they are coming in pretty cheap these days!

I am excited to go through my list and slash prices and figure out what I am going to do with 100+ points to spend...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 16:00:02


Post by: Azuza001


Also that defiler gains some serious advantages depending on the mark you give it and if you take deamons as well. Slaaneah defiler with slaanesh deamon herald can advance and charge as long as they stay near each other. Put a maulerfiend with mark of slaanesh next to them as well and..... thats coming at your opponent quite fast.....


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/10 23:18:36


Post by: Cptn_Cronssant


 akaean wrote:
I am excited to go through my list and slash prices and figure out what I am going to do with 100+ points to spend...


This. As a potential new WE player Praise Khorne for all the price reductions. My future list expanded by an extra Helbrute and ten Cultists and I still have 90 points to go!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 00:23:30


Post by: Red Corsair


 BoomWolf wrote:
That loadout doesn't seem legal when I'm looking on the sheet.


I think it was added in the FAQ that they can take double scourge...

it's frustrating how you need to look in multiple places just to take basic units barely 15 months after the book hit.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 01:02:31


Post by: macluvin


I always wanted terminators to work on the tabletop. The reaper autocannon and Combi-Plasma Powerax Termies seem like a half decent elites choice now with endless cacophony and 10 point reaper autocannons!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 01:26:22


Post by: ZergSmasher


For players wanting to go with lots of armor now that Daemon Engines and Helbrutes are cheaper, I wonder if taking a Renegade Knight would be a smart move. Your opponents can either shoot the Knight or try to pop all of your Helbrutes. All about saturation.

And as for the Helbrutes, my feeling is to go with Alpha Legion for shooty ones, and Renegades or World Eaters for Scourge/Fist ones (Zangiefbrutes). Pity that three of my 5 'brutes are the monopose Dark Vengeance ones, which are still not an optimum loadout even with the price drops.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 01:51:25


Post by: Azuza001


Monopose dark vengance ones can still be modified easily enough to go to autocannons or twin laz. Its the fist thats hard to change.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 02:04:09


Post by: Ap0k


macluvin wrote:
I always wanted terminators to work on the tabletop. The reaper autocannon and Combi-Plasma Powerax Termies seem like a half decent elites choice now with endless cacophony and 10 point reaper autocannons!


The question is still why you would do that when Oblits are better at 24" and 12", don't blow themselves up on 1's, and cheaper for roughly equivalent survivability (Oblits are more survivable vs 2D, but less vs 1D and 3D).

About the only reason I can see to run Terms over Oblits would be if you were maxing out a 10man squad, and that's a pretty sizeable investment, not only in points, but in fighting force that doesn't contribute anything to the first turn of the game.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 02:56:20


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


Huron can only cast a second time once per game? Where's that coming from?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 03:10:32


Post by: JNAProductions


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Huron can only cast a second time once per game? Where's that coming from?


He can cast once. But he has a special rule, his familiar, that lets him cast a second time.

...

Which I now see is not use-limited. Let me fix that.

Fixed!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 03:36:01


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


It may also be worth noting that Noise Marines can be decent as troops. They are certainly better as troops than regular CSM. Maybe give them a B when they are troops.

As a wider strategy, how well can Chaos do swarming walkers/daemon engines? Especially with the points changes, it seems like this approach could be quite effective. Do a super heavy (knight or lord of skulls or perhaps even Kytan) and then a ton of fiends and helbrutes? Any troops would be in rhinos. And then of course characters for buffs. You can flood the board with t7 and t8 targets only, which will get into CC turn 2 even against opponents who deploy at the back of their deployment zone.

Could this work out now?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 03:49:26


Post by: Nature's Minister


I was thinking defilers and contemptors would be fun


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 04:15:24


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
It may also be worth noting that Noise Marines can be decent as troops. They are certainly better as troops than regular CSM. Maybe give them a B when they are troops.

As a wider strategy, how well can Chaos do swarming walkers/daemon engines? Especially with the points changes, it seems like this approach could be quite effective. Do a super heavy (knight or lord of skulls or perhaps even Kytan) and then a ton of fiends and helbrutes? Any troops would be in rhinos. And then of course characters for buffs. You can flood the board with t7 and t8 targets only, which will get into CC turn 2 even against opponents who deploy at the back of their deployment zone.

Could this work out now?


I am thinking skip the superheavies. The LOS didnt get a points drop. For the same points, you can literally get 4 defilers or 2 defilers and 2 forgefiends now. And the equivalent number of points in daemon engines and hellbrutes will work out to more wound, more firepower and with far more flexibility than just one superheavy. Its a pity cos I really loved my LOS model, but I think only bring them out if you are in a casual setting.

Probably the only superheavy close to worth it would be a renegade knight with twin avenger gratling. But thats still close to 500 points. You can now get a heck of a lot of hellbrutes, forgefiends, defilers for the same number of points. Of course, if you want to get them all PLUS get a renegade knight too, then be my guest. Super massive armor saturation! lol

I predict that Str 7 weapons might be useful again. All the loyalist dreads got a point drop too. We are likely to see T7 dreadnaughts far more often on the field now.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 04:50:11


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
It may also be worth noting that Noise Marines can be decent as troops. They are certainly better as troops than regular CSM. Maybe give them a B when they are troops.

As a wider strategy, how well can Chaos do swarming walkers/daemon engines? Especially with the points changes, it seems like this approach could be quite effective. Do a super heavy (knight or lord of skulls or perhaps even Kytan) and then a ton of fiends and helbrutes? Any troops would be in rhinos. And then of course characters for buffs. You can flood the board with t7 and t8 targets only, which will get into CC turn 2 even against opponents who deploy at the back of their deployment zone.

Could this work out now?


I am thinking skip the superheavies. The LOS didnt get a points drop. For the same points, you can literally get 4 defilers or 2 defilers and 2 forgefiends now. And the equivalent number of points in daemon engines and hellbrutes will work out to more wound, more firepower and with far more flexibility than just one superheavy. Its a pity cos I really loved my LOS model, but I think only bring them out if you are in a casual setting.

Probably the only superheavy close to worth it would be a renegade knight with twin avenger gratling. But thats still close to 500 points. You can now get a heck of a lot of hellbrutes, forgefiends, defilers for the same number of points. Of course, if you want to get them all PLUS get a renegade knight too, then be my guest. Super massive armor saturation! lol

I predict that Str 7 weapons might be useful again. All the loyalist dreads got a point drop too. We are likely to see T7 dreadnaughts far more often on the field now.


Yeah, I agree. My thinking with the LoW is to have 1 giant beatstick unit that's going to draw all the fire off the little guys. Lord of Skulls Or Kytan will rip up other super heavies in melee all day because their melee is great and the chaos synergy is great. Warp time, full reroll hits and wounds from auras, or full reroll hits and wounds from Daemonforge. And there are other decent strats. An IW Lord of Skulls can use their 6+++ strat each turn. So the point of the LoW would be to focus buffs in one area. The point of taking several daemonengines instead would be more targets and more pressure.

I'm thinking Tzeentch daemon engines may be the best option because if you bring some Thousand Sons, the mutalith can hand out a lot of buffs, and it can use them on any Tzeentch unit. Bring a detachment of 1ksons for some princes, ahriman, and a mutalith or two (and perhaps MSU cultists or tzaangors to make it a battalion). Couple that with Renegades or Iron warrior Tzeentch marked daemon engines.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 13:27:29


Post by: Abaddon303


If you take a heretic astartes detachment, do individual units within that detachment still have a legion? Say if you took Abaddon in that detachment he would still be black legion? How would you allocate a legion to other units so that he could buff them? And could you take berserkers as troops because they would be still be worldeaters but in a heretic astartes legion.
The FAQ for berserkers says:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World Eaters
Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’

It doesn't say they have to be in a world eaters detachment. I notice battlescribe let's you take berserkers as troops in a heretic astartes detachment but I wouldn't trust that. Is there a specific rule I'm missing here? Thanks


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 13:34:46


Post by: Azuza001


Abaddon rerolls onlu affect black legion. World eaters beserkers are not black legion. There isnt a sneaky trick to allow you to take them as troops and get the rerolls. If you mix legions in the same detachment then the detachment doesnt get any legion benifit.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 13:41:41


Post by: Abaddon303


No I get that Ab can't buff them because they'd be different legions, but they can both be taken in the same detachment then?
I'm not sure what the advantage would be, but an extension of that. Could you take a unit of noise marines and a unit of berserkers as troops in the same detachment?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 13:57:59


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Abaddon303 wrote:
No I get that Ab can't buff them because they'd be different legions, but they can both be taken in the same detachment then?
I'm not sure what the advantage would be, but an extension of that. Could you take a unit of noise marines and a unit of berserkers as troops in the same detachment?


You need to reread the rules of how to gain Legion tactics. The whole detachment has to be from one legion in order to get a legion tactic. So you can't mix them in the same detachment if you want their legion boni, only in the same army.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 14:25:28


Post by: Ap0k


You're not reading what he's asking. He's not asking about legion traits.

He's asking if you can get WE Troop Zerkers and EC Troop Noise Marines and BL Abaddon into the same detachment, to which the answer is yes, because you can link them all with [HERETIC ASTARTES].

Said detachment won't get access to the legion traits or stratagems, but if he had another pure [LEGION] detachment in the same army, that detachment would unlock the strats he's losing out on, and obviously the legion trait for itself only.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 14:38:16


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 Ap0k wrote:
You're not reading what he's asking. He's not asking about legion traits.

He's asking if you can get WE Troop Zerkers and EC Troop Noise Marines and BL Abaddon into the same detachment, to which the answer is yes, because you can link them all with [HERETIC ASTARTES].

Said detachment won't get access to the legion traits or stratagems, but if he had another pure [LEGION] detachment in the same army, that detachment would unlock the strats he's losing out on, and obviously the legion trait for itself only.


The answer is no. All units in one detachment have to have the same LEGION, if they don't, they won't belong to any legion. So with Abaddon you can only have a Black Legion detachment, where Berzerkers and Noise Marines can never be troop choices, as only WE/EC become troop choices, not Black Legion Berzerkers/ Noise Marines. You can connect them via heretic astartes to play them, but that means no legion bonus, no nothing, no troop choice.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 15:16:45


Post by: lindsay40k


Right. Let’s clear this up.

FAQ 1.3 p1: EC Noise Marines are Troops. WE Berzerkers are Troops. No other qualifiers are given.

Codex CSM p156: ‘Chaos Space Marine unit’ is shorthand for BL, WB, IW, AL, NL, WE, EC, FALLEN, and RED CORSAIRS (but not DG or TS). A CSM detachment is one which only includes units with one of these keywords.

Troops in CSM detachments gain Despoilers of the Galaxy.

CCSM, p157: Legion traits are unlocked by being in a detachment of a single Legion.

CCSM, p 158: CCSM Stratagems are unlocked by taking a CSM Detachment.

So. Battalion:
- Abaddon WARLORD
- Khârn
- EC Sorcerer
- WE Berzerkers
- EC Noise Marines
- BL Cultists

The Zerks, NMs, and Cultists get ObSec. Abaddon’s aura gives everyone Fearless and the Cultists & himself rerolls to hit. Kharn’s aura gives the Zerks rerolls to hit. Nobody gets a LEGION trait. CCSM Stratagems are unlocked (and the LEGION ones can be used on each LEGION’s units). Abaddon gives bonus CP, and the EC Sorcerer (who, incidentally, can cast Warptime on the Berzerkers) can have a Relic because the Warlord is a CSM.

Add a Vanguard:
- WE Warpsmith
- WE Helbrute
- WE Helbrute
- WE Helbrute

All four of these units benefit from their LEGION trait. They benefit from Kharn’s aura. The Zerks and Khârn still do not get their LEGION traits.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 15:59:43


Post by: Ap0k


The Zerks, NMs, and Cultists get ObSec


Nope. A 'Chaos Space Marine' detachment is defined as one where all units share the same legion keyword. (edit: Actually, I see how that can be read the other way now - GJ with the phrasing GW! The below would be incorrect under the alternative interpretation, in that case).

What you have is a [HERETIC ASTARTES] battalion, which doesn't get anything except what's built into the units. The warlord can get a CSM warlord trait and unlock a relic because that's specifically mentioned in the Warlord rules section of the book, but that's it.

CCSM Stratagems are unlocked (and the LEGION ones can be used on each LEGION’s units)


Also no, for the same reason as above.

Everything else was spot on, though.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 17:21:03


Post by: lindsay40k


CCSM pg156 defines a CSM unit as any unit which has one of the LEGION keywords other than DG or TS. It then defines a CSM detachment as one which only includes units with one of those LEGION keywords. It does not define it as a detachment in which every unit has the same LEGION keyword.

P157 goes on: “If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY , BIKERS and HELBRUTE units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion.”

The terminology is quite different. If CSM Detachments needed to be mono-LEGION, they’d likely have used the terminology they used for a LEGION detachment. So, this leaves open the possibility of a CSM detachment with several different LEGION keywords.

Examples of a HERETIC ASTARTES Detachment could include:

- Battalion: Abaddon, Worldclaimer, three BL Heretac squads (which is also a BL & CSM Detachment, gaining their LEGION trait and unlocking CSM Stratagems)
- Vanguard: Lucius, Iron Warriors Chosen, Night Lords Possessed, Alpha Legion Helbrute (which is also a CSM detachment, unlocking CSM Stratagems)
- Super Heavy Detachment: World Eaters Lord of Skulls, Magnus the Red (Warlord), and Mortarion (which unlocks a TS Relic for, say, a Tzaangor Shaman in a TZEENTCH Vanguard with Flamers and a Changecaster)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote:
No I get that Ab can't buff them because they'd be different legions, but they can both be taken in the same detachment then?
I'm not sure what the advantage would be, but an extension of that. Could you take a unit of noise marines and a unit of berserkers as troops in the same detachment?


To return to this issue at hand: I believe the Battalion:
- Abaddon WARLORD
- Khârn
- EC Sorcerer
- WE Berzerkers
- EC Noise Marines
- BL Cultists
is completely legal, and it seems perfectly viable. The Noise Marines don’t particularly suffer from losing their LEGION trait, Berzerkers already inflict severe damage without +1A, the Cultists don’t care about losing out on +1Ld as Abby makes them Fearless, the Sorcerer can make the glass cannon units extremely effective, and the +7CP will cover several VotLW activations and a Tide of Traitors and plenty of rerolls on key casts and advances and DTW and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THAT SAID, if this proves awesome and popular, don’t be surprised if the Zerks and NMs get changed to be Troops only in mono-Legion Detachments.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 18:20:58


Post by: Ap0k


What I mean is that the following statement is ambiguous:

"‘Chaos Space Marine unit’ is shorthand for BL, WB, IW, AL, NL, WE, EC, FALLEN, and RED CORSAIRS (but not DG or TS). A CSM detachment is one which only includes units with one of these keywords."

It can be read as 'A CSM detachment is one which includes one (and only one) of these keywords', and it can also be read as 'A CSM detachment is one which includes any of the following keywords (in any combination)'.

If you take the first interpretation, then EC Noise Marines alongside WE Zerkers would prevent it being a CSM detachment (but would remain a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment), whilst the alternate interpretation would work as you describe above.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 19:43:29


Post by: Abaddon303


Thanks guys, well I'm glad that turned out not to be a stupid question! I just noticed the wording and thought it was open to interpretation. Losing legion trait isn't really the end of the world as most are pretty useless. Abaddon's fearless bubble works on any heretic astartes so any cultists would still receive the buff.
Just seems a good way of avoiding troop tax taking units you'd probably already take.
I think the fact the rule regarding what is a CSM detachment mentions fallen would imply that the detachment doesn't have to be all the same legion.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 20:43:04


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 22:04:33


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.


Tad much in support charachters no?

Atleast a csm Sorcerer, mutalith, herald. Not to mention that both prescience and warptime need to go off.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 23:10:44


Post by: Azuza001


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.


Yep thats the same kind of tricks you can do with any marine demons / chaos demons. Tzeentch really can boost a lot of things to silly levels, the issue is the cost of the units your going to try these tricks on, how durable are they by themselves, and what can they do if things go wrong like you dont get those spells off or the enemy kills your vortex beasts before the target boostable unit gets into range to fight. Its why i love my defiler, its able to be boosted different ways to get the same awsome results but even if things go bad I can drop a cp for demonforged and get rerolls to hit and wound.

For slaanesh though i like the maulerfiend. M10, put next to a slaanesh herald on steed so it can advance and charge, have a sorcerer cast warptime and delightful agonies on it for (10+d6) x2 + 2d6 movement turn 1 on a unit with t7, 3+/5++/5+++ and 12 wounds that can put out 10 attacks in cc vs something you want dead.... thats speed in a can of whoop ass right there.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 23:33:50


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


Not Online!!! wrote:


Tad much in support charachters no?

Atleast a csm Sorcerer, mutalith, herald. Not to mention that both prescience and warptime need to go off.


It is a lot of support characters, but you don't necessarily need them all for it to be good. And you're probably going to be taking a lot of support characters in a chaos force in general. They are also decent on their own.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/11 23:35:34


Post by: lindsay40k


With regard to Possessed, I suspect there’s nasty surprises that can be pulled with them and Fabius Bile. If they have MoS and you dose them in the enemy movement phase after you’ve cast DA, then on average you’ll only lose one.

Another unit that could be very interesting for him to soup up would be Poxwalkers. Replenishable, snowballable...

I’ve got a lot of Slaanesh in my Word Bearers, and a growing sideboard of zombies. I might give this a try in the new year...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 15:56:14


Post by: Zid


 ZergSmasher wrote:
For players wanting to go with lots of armor now that Daemon Engines and Helbrutes are cheaper, I wonder if taking a Renegade Knight would be a smart move. Your opponents can either shoot the Knight or try to pop all of your Helbrutes. All about saturation.

And as for the Helbrutes, my feeling is to go with Alpha Legion for shooty ones, and Renegades or World Eaters for Scourge/Fist ones (Zangiefbrutes). Pity that three of my 5 'brutes are the monopose Dark Vengeance ones, which are still not an optimum loadout even with the price drops.


The double Gat Knight is never a bad option... honestly, I would always use mine if I could; he is very good. Really we have to see where the meta shifts.

I will say combining Renegade Knights with a Poxbringer w/ shriveling pox has become one of my favorite strats....


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 15:58:05


Post by: Wayniac


With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 15:59:59


Post by: Zid


Azuza001 wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.


Yep thats the same kind of tricks you can do with any marine demons / chaos demons. Tzeentch really can boost a lot of things to silly levels, the issue is the cost of the units your going to try these tricks on, how durable are they by themselves, and what can they do if things go wrong like you dont get those spells off or the enemy kills your vortex beasts before the target boostable unit gets into range to fight. Its why i love my defiler, its able to be boosted different ways to get the same awsome results but even if things go bad I can drop a cp for demonforged and get rerolls to hit and wound.

For slaanesh though i like the maulerfiend. M10, put next to a slaanesh herald on steed so it can advance and charge, have a sorcerer cast warptime and delightful agonies on it for (10+d6) x2 + 2d6 movement turn 1 on a unit with t7, 3+/5++/5+++ and 12 wounds that can put out 10 attacks in cc vs something you want dead.... thats speed in a can of whoop ass right there.


Thats a lot for one smashy-bullet; people have been doing this with Defilers as well (because of the higher Str). The thing is, though, you have to have a vector to something thats worth pouring all this into a single model. I have a feeling screens are coming back more often, and armies like Orcs won't care about a Maulerfiend getting close, they want you to do that.

Tzeentch is my favorite when you talk about buffs though, they really can do a whole lot. Not to mention Ahriman is awesome, and with the reduction in points on the SOT's, I really think I want to run some for interference and chaff clearing; AP -2 stormbolters are pretty sweet


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 16:05:29


Post by: Not Online!!!


Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.


If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 16:26:26


Post by: Zid


Not Online!!! wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.


If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)


I would love to see the Demon Engines make a comeback; for me the Forgefiend (and Maulerfiend) lack the versatility of the Defiler. Defiler has guns, CC, and everything, wrapped into one neat package, plus a lot more wounds. The fiends look great, but they will probably die before doing too much, and why would you spend more on those when you could take a Hellbrute for much less (and its easier to hide)?

I'm interested to see what people come up with in this brave new meta, though. Myself, I fully intend to start testing the two Defilers I just acquired in competitive games; they are much easier to tack into a list sub 300 points, gives me two battle cannons, some AC and bolter shots, and not to mention are a huge threat in CC. Plus they provide mobile cover; I can actually half obscure my Renegade Knight behind one... 2+ armor save woo!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 16:31:06


Post by: timetowaste85


 Zid wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
For players wanting to go with lots of armor now that Daemon Engines and Helbrutes are cheaper, I wonder if taking a Renegade Knight would be a smart move. Your opponents can either shoot the Knight or try to pop all of your Helbrutes. All about saturation.

And as for the Helbrutes, my feeling is to go with Alpha Legion for shooty ones, and Renegades or World Eaters for Scourge/Fist ones (Zangiefbrutes). Pity that three of my 5 'brutes are the monopose Dark Vengeance ones, which are still not an optimum loadout even with the price drops.


The double Gat Knight is never a bad option... honestly, I would always use mine if I could; he is very good. Really we have to see where the meta shifts.

I will say combining Renegade Knights with a Poxbringer w/ shriveling pox has become one of my favorite strats....


For hellbrutes...especially the Khorne ones, why not grab a Korgoroth from Age of Sigmar? It has a fist on one hand, and a mouth of tentacles for the other. Sounds like a scourge and hellbrute fist to me. Should be cheap as hell on eBay and have proper loadout for Khorne built right in. And it’s the right size.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 17:45:48


Post by: Wayniac


 Zid wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.


If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)


I would love to see the Demon Engines make a comeback; for me the Forgefiend (and Maulerfiend) lack the versatility of the Defiler. Defiler has guns, CC, and everything, wrapped into one neat package, plus a lot more wounds. The fiends look great, but they will probably die before doing too much, and why would you spend more on those when you could take a Hellbrute for much less (and its easier to hide)?

I'm interested to see what people come up with in this brave new meta, though. Myself, I fully intend to start testing the two Defilers I just acquired in competitive games; they are much easier to tack into a list sub 300 points, gives me two battle cannons, some AC and bolter shots, and not to mention are a huge threat in CC. Plus they provide mobile cover; I can actually half obscure my Renegade Knight behind one... 2+ armor save woo!


That is tasty. And good point about the fiends. You may have sold me on the defiler.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 17:53:37


Post by: Azuza001


My personal current setup that i have had a lot of success with is

Black legion

Abaddon
Sorcerer w/ mark of slaanesh

40 cultists

Forgefiend w/ autocannons and plasma head
Maulerfiend w/ lasher tenticals
Defiler w/ twin las and scourge


I also take a detachment of 2 heralds on seekers of slaanesh and 3 groups of 10 demonettes.

Then i fill the rest of the points in with whatever else i want to take, be it demonprinces or chaos marines or whatever.

This setup has been quite effective in my local meta. Abaddon keeps defiler, forgefiend, and cultists hitting properly without cp needed, also keeps cultists from running away. Demonettes, heralds, and maulerfiend rush forward to be a smash squad (had the mauletfiend smash right into a venerable dreadnaught on turn one and utterly destroy it then consolidated into a predator, mvp of that game).

These point changes have made me very happy. I may run 3 dakka hellbrutes in this now for more fun with abaddon...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 18:00:28


Post by: Zid


Wayniac wrote:
 Zid wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.


If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)


I would love to see the Demon Engines make a comeback; for me the Forgefiend (and Maulerfiend) lack the versatility of the Defiler. Defiler has guns, CC, and everything, wrapped into one neat package, plus a lot more wounds. The fiends look great, but they will probably die before doing too much, and why would you spend more on those when you could take a Hellbrute for much less (and its easier to hide)?

I'm interested to see what people come up with in this brave new meta, though. Myself, I fully intend to start testing the two Defilers I just acquired in competitive games; they are much easier to tack into a list sub 300 points, gives me two battle cannons, some AC and bolter shots, and not to mention are a huge threat in CC. Plus they provide mobile cover; I can actually half obscure my Renegade Knight behind one... 2+ armor save woo!


That is tasty. And good point about the fiends. You may have sold me on the defiler.


Look out for me using some in future reps; my tourney this weekend is pre-CA 2018, so I won't be using them. However, after the change, they cost slightly more than my go-to PBC's, so I intend to test them thoroughly. I just want a couple Contemptors to add in to the list idea I'm working... Death guard spearhead, 2 defilers, 2 contemptors, lord, 1 PBC w/ entropy cannons, Renegade gatling knight (maybe two armigers for the CP), then probably a Daemon battalion... seems like it could do some damage


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 18:05:13


Post by: Wayniac


For Iron Warriors I'm considering going heavy on the tanks and engines, because thematic. With the increase to cultists it seems more likely I'll want min units to fill up a battalion rather than a big blob, then add Chosen/Havocs and some tanks and dreadnoughts. I am a big fan of Helbrutes (not the model though, I plan to convert some loyalist dreads into something like the old Ferrum Infernus FW dread) and they got a points drop as well. So ideally several dreads, defilers, tanks and other things. DOubt it will be incredibly competitive but in local events, it should be decent.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 20:17:17


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 20:45:37


Post by: Zid


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.


Helbrutes can hide though, which can be a nice surprise unit because people may ignore them til they are too late.

The best use would probably slaneesh with a slaanesh herald nearby, but i wouldn't waste much effort in buffing them with psykers other than warptime and maybe prescience. Sadly, though, noise marines, havoks, and oblits are still better point for point.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 20:51:14


Post by: lindsay40k


Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/12 21:25:46


Post by: Bird of prey


Correct me If i am wrong, but so far i though obliterators dont have the daemon keyword?

Just checked, jup i was wrong.
I think i will pick up a wrath and rapture box then


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 00:10:11


Post by: Sersi


 lindsay40k wrote:
Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators


That's not a bad idea as her movement is probably not that high anyway.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 02:21:10


Post by: NurglesR0T


 Sersi wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:
Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators


That's not a bad idea as her movement is probably not that high anyway.


Would be safe to assume same movement as Daemonettes so not super fast but quick enough to move around midfield with advancing


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 03:29:41


Post by: ZergSmasher


 lindsay40k wrote:
Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators

Assuming they don't FAQ the ability to only work on Codex: Daemons units. Otherwise, she'd be good with Oblits. Stupid good, in fact! Might be okay with Possessed too.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 03:31:55


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I think forgefiends are worth a look. They are a very good candidate for daemonforge. Better than Defilers who like to charge forward and get into combat. If you go with a forgefiend with jaws, its just 148 points. A tri head forgefiend is 160 points. Its very cheap. Plus it has a 5++ invul and infernal regen. So its a harder target to destroy than a hellbrute.

I would try just one and see how it goes. I am considering plama cannons for my hellbrutes now. Its not bad ah. d3 Str 8 shots at ap-3 for a flat 2 damage. Its only slightly more expensive than a reaper autocannon.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 03:47:25


Post by: NurglesR0T


Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think forgefiends are worth a look. They are a very good candidate for daemonforge. Better than Defilers who like to charge forward and get into combat. If you go with a forgefiend with jaws, its just 148 points. A tri head forgefiend is 160 points. Its very cheap. Plus it has a 5++ invul and infernal regen. So its a harder target to destroy than a hellbrute.


With the price drop on Forgefiends I can finally dust off the 3 I have on my shelf, Ecto plasma is still a trap though, I wouldn't bother. If each was D6 shots or D3+3 it would be worth a glance.




Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 09:54:49


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


At that price point, having Daemonforge is just icing on the cake. Just keep them near a reroll machine.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 10:36:34


Post by: stormcraft


3 forgefiends + Kharn for full rerolls might be a very solid firebase now.
Good Firepower, and Khar can shred any approaching melee threat.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 10:44:12


Post by: Not Online!!!


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At that price point, having Daemonforge is just icing on the cake. Just keep them near a reroll machine.


I'd imagine you would take a CSM lord and a warpsmith, which babysit 2-Dakka fiends and a defiler? Why a defiler? mainly for some melee defence?
Would make a decent spearhead.

Add in some CP battery (R&H battalion/ Brigade, Cultist with warpsmiths and a sorcerer,) I'd imagine that generating 10 additional CP would probably be required to get enough "CP-Fuel"

Ofcourse there is always the possibility to get a cheaper "vanguard" with 3 dakka brutes and a warpsmith. I imgine that a missile, reaper combo would lead to an ammount of decent dakka.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 10:45:16


Post by: tneva82


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 Ap0k wrote:
You're not reading what he's asking. He's not asking about legion traits.

He's asking if you can get WE Troop Zerkers and EC Troop Noise Marines and BL Abaddon into the same detachment, to which the answer is yes, because you can link them all with [HERETIC ASTARTES].

Said detachment won't get access to the legion traits or stratagems, but if he had another pure [LEGION] detachment in the same army, that detachment would unlock the strats he's losing out on, and obviously the legion trait for itself only.


The answer is no. All units in one detachment have to have the same LEGION, if they don't, they won't belong to any legion. So with Abaddon you can only have a Black Legion detachment, where Berzerkers and Noise Marines can never be troop choices, as only WE/EC become troop choices, not Black Legion Berzerkers/ Noise Marines. You can connect them via heretic astartes to play them, but that means no legion bonus, no nothing, no troop choice.



Actually the legion still matters. I don't know enough about CSM so I use my orks as example. I have detachment that mixes both goffs and bad moons. Now none of those would get goff/bad moon trait bonuses. HOWEVER I could give goff/bad moon relics to respective models. I could also use their respective strategems so goff boyz could be upgraded to skarboyz and bad moon lootas could shoot twice. They would both be bad moon/goff models but without klan bonus.

Is the berserkers as troop having specific LEGION text(which it has) or the benefit of having that LEGION? In above ork example there is GOFF in the keywords of goff units and BAD MOON on bad moon units so if say mega nobz would be able to be taken if they are GOFF unit they would be troops even if detachment had bad moon units as well. If it required benefitting from GOFF trait then no.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 12:21:05


Post by: eternalxfl


Eldenfirefly wrote:

I would try just one and see how it goes. I am considering plama cannons for my hellbrutes now. Its not bad ah. d3 Str 8 shots at ap-3 for a flat 2 damage. Its only slightly more expensive than a reaper autocannon.

Sure, the price drop is nice, but you gotta be careful with the plasma cannon helbrutes. If they move, that's -1 to hit from the Heavy weapon. Also, I'd expect to have at least another -1 from some sort of legion or craftworld trait which now puts you at -2. HB Plasma is always overcharged so now your in a situation where you use the stratagem to ignore the Heavy penalty, or you face suffering mortal wounds on 2's, and hitting on 5's. Sure, there's always a chance that you suffer a mortal wound which then procs the crazed rule, but that's a 1 in 6 chance and almost unreliable. The payout doesn't sound quite right at this point.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 20:29:45


Post by: Red Corsair


 Zid wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.


Helbrutes can hide though, which can be a nice surprise unit because people may ignore them til they are too late.

The best use would probably slaneesh with a slaanesh herald nearby, but i wouldn't waste much effort in buffing them with psykers other than warptime and maybe prescience. Sadly, though, noise marines, havoks, and oblits are still better point for point.


That's a big give in 8th. Any decent army is seeing them or can move to see them. If you totally hide them, your now walking around that cover which means they waste a turn and just expose themselves later. Counter assault is a consideration, but characters are so much better, they hide in plain sight and can intervene as well as buff. Hellbrutes went down which is nice for sure, but they go pop just as easily as before. The best strategy for them is to by a twin las and rocket and sit next to abby with a crap load more las canons from marines. Mxing weapons is a waste, and the combat variety require renagades in order to be fast enough. I'd never take one over a mauler fiend. Mauler has 50% more wounds without factoring regen, can advance and assault when using slaanesh demon allies, is faster stock out the gate and hits harder due to having access to one of the most powerful strats in the game.

I think there is a valid debate on maulers or defilers, but helbrutes are not even in the same league still. The lack of invuln means they work OK for applying saturation of fire at range but that's all I'd use em for.

Forgefiend still sucks. It would need to be 100 flat before I'd take one again. I tried to make it work countless times prior to CA, it was not the points that killed it, the points just crucified the dead body. They just don't do anything all game, and that's including baby sitting them with abby. Abby is too good to waste on them and I feel like he is the only viable solution. No way I am wasting my CP on Demon Forging that things guns. I need those for better units.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/13 22:10:13


Post by: Abaddon303


You make a great point about characters actually that I never really thought about. I appreciate the lasher tendrils are the better option but if you don't take those, the mauler gives you 4 s12 attacks -3 3D
That new lord gives you 4 attacks with his thunder hammer at S8 -3 3D. Okay so the strength is lower, but he hits on 3s and rerolls 1s. Buffs others, doesn't degrade and can't be targeted. Okay, the mauler absorbs your opponents anti tank etc but it's made me think.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/14 03:01:55


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Red Corsair wrote:
 Zid wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.


Helbrutes can hide though, which can be a nice surprise unit because people may ignore them til they are too late.

The best use would probably slaneesh with a slaanesh herald nearby, but i wouldn't waste much effort in buffing them with psykers other than warptime and maybe prescience. Sadly, though, noise marines, havoks, and oblits are still better point for point.


That's a big give in 8th. Any decent army is seeing them or can move to see them. If you totally hide them, your now walking around that cover which means they waste a turn and just expose themselves later. Counter assault is a consideration, but characters are so much better, they hide in plain sight and can intervene as well as buff. Hellbrutes went down which is nice for sure, but they go pop just as easily as before. The best strategy for them is to by a twin las and rocket and sit next to abby with a crap load more las canons from marines. Mxing weapons is a waste, and the combat variety require renagades in order to be fast enough. I'd never take one over a mauler fiend. Mauler has 50% more wounds without factoring regen, can advance and assault when using slaanesh demon allies, is faster stock out the gate and hits harder due to having access to one of the most powerful strats in the game.

I think there is a valid debate on maulers or defilers, but helbrutes are not even in the same league still. The lack of invuln means they work OK for applying saturation of fire at range but that's all I'd use em for.

Forgefiend still sucks. It would need to be 100 flat before I'd take one again. I tried to make it work countless times prior to CA, it was not the points that killed it, the points just crucified the dead body. They just don't do anything all game, and that's including baby sitting them with abby. Abby is too good to waste on them and I feel like he is the only viable solution. No way I am wasting my CP on Demon Forging that things guns. I need those for better units.



Yes, Hellbrutes die easily. Thats why I think the key thing is to keep them super cheap. And fire frenzy and possibly crazed (have to remember that rule) increases their firepower. If they can be kept in cover, their save improves. In any case, in an army where you have a lot of other armour, if they want to waste their precious anti armour guns shooting at cheap hellbrutes over other stuff, then I guess they are welcome to do so.

If you plan to use daemonforge on Forgefiends, then you don't need Abaddon to babysit one. Maybe keep forgefiends cheap at 148 point too (don't go tri head forgefiend). I will try one. They are a good candidate for daemon forge unless you actually want to use your daemon forge on a defiler. (not the best choice really).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/15 19:08:00


Post by: lindsay40k


Contemptors and Deredeos have caught some eyes, but has anyone noticed both drop pods are cheaper? Two thirds of the 2017 price hike on Kharybdis has been slashed. Can't warptime it at your opponent any more (unless you start it on the board...!), but there we go


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/16 00:58:20


Post by: JNAProductions


 lindsay40k wrote:
Contemptors and Deredeos have caught some eyes, but has anyone noticed both drop pods are cheaper? Two thirds of the 2017 price hike on Kharybdis has been slashed. Can't warptime it at your opponent any more (unless you start it on the board...!), but there we go


Screening units can't be flown over with Warptime anymore.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/16 18:53:30


Post by: lindsay40k


Aaaah. Forgot about that new rule. So, it flies at them in the movement phase, in the psychic phase it grinds along handrails at the same speed, in the charge phase it stampedes on its blade struts, and in the fight phase it rolls around, all of the latter three able to be blocked by a single model. Yeah, that does significantly limit its ability to wreak mayhem. In fact, I daresay it’s original points cost might well be overpriced with this new limitation.

It can still zoom up and glomp screening units on turn one, with a score of Berzerkers inside revving up for turn two, but jumping in and incinerating half an army is out. Put Delightful Agonies on it (until monotheist transports are errata’d to be incompatible with heathens), though, and that’s an unignorable distraction carnifex.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/16 19:05:28


Post by: Nym


 JNAProductions wrote:
Screening units can't be flown over with Warptime anymore.

Care to explain ? Warptime allows you to move "as if it were the Movement Phase". In the Movement Phase, you can fly over units.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/16 19:55:17


Post by: lindsay40k


Hmm. That’s definitely giving me pause for thought. Nothing about it in the FAQ. Has there been a designer’s note on this? Or has ‘specific overrules general’ been formally flowcharted in a way that answers this?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/16 22:18:09


Post by: orangebrushminiatures


 Nym wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Screening units can't be flown over with Warptime anymore.

Care to explain ? Warptime allows you to move "as if it were the Movement Phase". In the Movement Phase, you can fly over units.


This came up at a tournament for me recently, TO said you couldn't do it but most players just shook on it and said they could, your right "as if it were the Movement Phase" is pretty cut & dry for me, same for for the soulburst guys.

Can't believe how much trouble warptime and other similar powers have caused this edition, still don't know for sure wether i can warptime after dark matter crystal or tide of traitors!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 01:13:57


Post by: Nature's Minister


So even with the price cuts, marines are still basically useless. I spotted an ultramarines player something like 500 points in his Guilliman list, went 2nd, and the game was still over turn 3.

This is relevant because their marines are better, mostly, and in many cases cheaper than ours. How are chaos space marines - like, the actual marines - ever supposed to compete? I know we still have zerkers and obliterators but that is not enough.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 02:16:03


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Nature's Minister wrote:
So even with the price cuts, marines are still basically useless. I spotted an ultramarines player something like 500 points in his Guilliman list, went 2nd, and the game was still over turn 3.

This is relevant because their marines are better, mostly, and in many cases cheaper than ours. How are chaos space marines - like, the actual marines - ever supposed to compete? I know we still have zerkers and obliterators but that is not enough.



Hmmm, I dunno. I am starting to think cost of a base marine isn't really the problem. I mean, you can take minimum squads, or just cultists if its about costs. Not as if people run tons of base marines anyway. If cost is the key issue, look at sisters of battle. Their basic sister model is just 9 points a model, and its in power armor. But from their thread it looks like tons of sisters players are unhappy with their beta codex. If 9 point models in power armor can't make them a top tier armor, then I don't think making our marines cheaper is going to make that big a difference.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 02:29:33


Post by: Nature's Minister


I would love ten point marines with our weapon options. 13 is terrible.

100 point autocannon havocs, 120 point ten man squads with autocannons, etc. With the butcher cannon price drop we might stand a chance


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 02:51:35


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Has anyone looked at the Kytan Ravager. This kind of escaped my radar. It is now just 410 points! How does it compare to a renegade knight. (By the way, now I am extra miffed that they brought down the points for Kytan Ravager but failed to do so for the Lord of skulls).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 03:06:52


Post by: Nature's Minister


It is gonna be hard to keep alive. Like bloodthirsters, even with the reduction, are still gonna be unplayable mostly. In casual games it'll rock, tho


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 03:32:26


Post by: Azuza001


Any drop in normal price marines would be helpful. At 13 points its very very hard to justify taking them when chosen are flat better at 14 pts. And lets say you went with the basic 5 man, 1 plasma gun, before. That unit with before price point is 1 pt cheaper than taking 5 choosen now with 1 combi plasma.... so what does this mean now? Regular marines just have 0 legit reason to exsist. Take them as havocs or choosen, chaos marines are not worth jack.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 03:43:37


Post by: Nature's Minister


They get mulched way too easily by 7 point models.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 04:21:49


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Azuza001 wrote:
Any drop in normal price marines would be helpful. At 13 points its very very hard to justify taking them when chosen are flat better at 14 pts. And lets say you went with the basic 5 man, 1 plasma gun, before. That unit with before price point is 1 pt cheaper than taking 5 choosen now with 1 combi plasma.... so what does this mean now? Regular marines just have 0 legit reason to exsist. Take them as havocs or choosen, chaos marines are not worth jack.

Especially when Objective Secured is mostly a non-rule. Since the beginning of 7th, I can count MAYBE on both hands where it mattered to win me a game.

Quite honestly I would prefer that Chosen be our main Troops.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 04:34:05


Post by: Azuza001


I have only had it come up once in all my 8th edition games since the rule came out where objective secured made any difference. Standard marines need to be cheaper or have some sort of different weapon option that havocs cant take or choosen cant take. I mean, other than you can take 20 in one squad, and why would you, what can we do with them?

Oh well, maybe NEXT year...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 10:00:19


Post by: Not Online!!!


Why not the following:
Drop min sizes squad sizes for marines to 3.
Drop price to 11ppm
However all armies with legion traits need to buy veterancy for 1-3 pts

Veterancy is a boost to a stat, like M, A, WS, BS, such stuff, to show that legionaires are enbittered bastards that probably know any mean trick in the book.

Renegades trait is now also usefull for cheapo marines. The others have now a legion trait aswell as a boost in stats.

That's how i would make CSM better without the whole Chaos primaris shtick.
Probably would be nice tho if we got access to stolen equipment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now out of curiosity: I am going to buy a box of amirigers and a forgefiend, mostly for some nice conversions, what would be the best way to integrate them in a army detachment wise?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 11:43:31


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Just to clarify something. If I bring a Black Legion spearhead, a world eaters battalion, both detachments are battleforged, and I get the world eater traits for the WE battalion and the black legion traits for the spearhead and all strategems can be used interchangably right?

If I bring a Daemons battalion and a black legion speaheard, both daemons and black legion strategions and traits are unlocked as well right?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 13:38:05


Post by: lindsay40k


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just to clarify something. If I bring a Black Legion spearhead, a world eaters battalion, both detachments are battleforged, and I get the world eater traits for the WE battalion and the black legion traits for the spearhead and all strategems can be used interchangably right?

If I bring a Daemons battalion and a black legion speaheard, both daemons and black legion strategions and traits are unlocked as well right?


1: Yes, all the Stratagems in Codex CSM are unlocked. Incidentally, on this note, a BL Psyker can cast buffs on World Eaters. It’d be culturally insensitive, but I’m sure the Berzerkers won’t object that much to being able to run down a jet bike

2: Yes, each detachment unlocks its Codex Stratagems. The Daemons detachment will have to be of a single deity to unlock a trait, though.

Note that (in the FAQ), Codex Chaos Daemons Stratagems cannot be used on any CSM unit - though some of them give a Daemon an aura, which can benefit nearby CSM units with the DAEMON keyword.

For instance: A Keeper of Secrets, a Black Legion Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, and some Black Legion Possessed of Slaanesh are ganging up on an enemy unit in the fight phase. Locus of Grace can be used on the KoS, but not on the DP. When used on the KoS, she enables the DP and Possessed to make additional attacks when they roll a 6 to hit.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 13:47:36


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Ok, how about this?

I use the keyword nurgle. So,

3 Nurglings for 3 troops,
2 Nurgle Daemon Princes (from chaos Daemons).
3 plague burst crawlers. (nurgle keyword)

So, I won't get any legion traits, but I still get the 5 CP for battalion? How about stategems? btw, is this considered a battleforged detachment? How about relics? no relics?

If I then take a seperate CSM legion spearhead detachment (like say an alpha legion spearhead). I get all the CSM strategems and relics anyway right? And I can then use them on this nurgle detachment? (like daemonforge on the PBC?)


BTW, I know Predator tanks are kinda fragile. But with the points drop in havoc launchers and twin las, has anyone considered three Predator tanks without sponsons, but all with havoc launchers? That's 136 points. Cheap enough you won't feel the pinch as hard if one gets taken down, but if you go first, then using kill shot sounds good.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 14:00:46


Post by: lindsay40k


Okay. This would indeed constitute a NURGLE Battalion, so it’s battleforged and generates 5CP.

It does not solely consist of Chaos Daemon units, or of Death Guard units, so it does not unlock Stratagems from either Codex.

When you nominate one of those DPs as your Warlord, that will grant them a Warlord Trait from their Codex, and your army can take a Relic from the same Codex.

Your take on the AL Spearhead is correct, it will unlock CSM Stratagems. An FAQ has confirmed that CSM stragatems can be used on units of Legions not in Codex CSM; for instance Daemonforge on a DG DAEMON VEHICLE or Tide of Traitors on Thousand Sons Cultists.

With regards to CSM Relics, your free Relic for turning up is determined by your Warlord. The CSM Stratagems unlocked by the AL Spearhead would include Gifts of Chaos, which would enable you to unlock one or two CSM Relics as well.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 14:08:00


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Thanks!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 15:34:11


Post by: Captyn_Bob


If someone was feeling stubborn and wanted to run a brass scorpion... is there any way at all to boost its efficiency?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lindsay40k wrote:

for instance Daemonforge on a DG DAEMON VEHICLE or Tide of Traitors on Thousand Sons Cultists.

.
daemonforge also requires Chaos space marine, so won't work on death guard. Tide works tho as you say.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 16:47:37


Post by: lindsay40k


Ah, so it does. My mistake! Huh, that makes DG Defilers a lot less inviting.

As for the Brass Scorpion, it’s all about synergy:

- take a Jump Pack Sorcerer with Warptime and Prescience, and maybe a second with Diabolic Strength and Death Hex.

- take a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment and give a winged Daemon Prince the Crimson Crown, running alongside the thing to give it rerolls to hit and charge and exploding 6’s to wound.

- take a SLAANESH DAEMONS Vanguard with Fiends and a Herald on Steed. If one of them hugs a single surviving grot that the BS has trampled up to, it can’t fall back in the enemy turn and you get to ignore all shooting and stomp it in their turn.

- consider an Exalted Champion riding in a Rhino full of Berzerkers (or, with all these Loci around, Possessed). It it can keep up, then together with the Daemon Prince you’re getting a free Daemonforge every fight phase.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 16:52:01


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Alas a FAQ made it immune to warptime. Sad face. The only durability buff I've found is iron warriors 6+ fnp.. which despite being crap might be it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daemon aura buffs seem worthwhile


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would never have considered Slaaneshi support. Could catch an opponent off guard lol


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 17:20:15


Post by: BigBrown


Been thinking about new ways to play my CSM army post CA. My usual 2k point list got 35 points more expensive while most of my gaming buddies got an additional 100-200 points to play around with.

Has anyone thought about running Plague Marines in an Alpha Legion detachment? -1 to hit, T5 and disgustingly resilient makes for some pretty durable objective sitters, and they´re slightly cheaper now. They wouldn´t be objective secure but not sure how important that is anyway. Or are you better off just going Death Guard at that point?



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/17 20:38:42


Post by: Azuza001


Played a tournament yesterday running. Almost everything had mark of slaanesh.

Abaddon
Sorcerer
40 cultists
2 defilers
1 maulerfiend

24 bloodletters
Bloodmaster

2 heralds of slaanesh
3 x 10 demonettes


Went 2 and 3, running the demon engines up with heralds and demonettes while cultists with a 5+++ next to abandon caught a lot of people off guard on how to deal with them. The one game i did lose was vs a dark angel force on a board covered in city ruins. He put everything in the buildings covering the floors so that there was no room for my guys to get up to him and then the mission was simply kill points so it was an uphill battle...

Thankfully we are talking about switching to chapter approved missions going forward for our local tournaments. It should prevent the problem of "oh its kills points, i can just castle up and shoot you as you come because i dont have to move, you do".


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 09:42:25


Post by: Not Online!!!


Azuza001 wrote:
Played a tournament yesterday running. Almost everything had mark of slaanesh.

Abaddon
Sorcerer
40 cultists
2 defilers
1 maulerfiend

24 bloodletters
Bloodmaster

2 heralds of slaanesh
3 x 10 demonettes


Went 2 and 3, running the demon engines up with heralds and demonettes while cultists with a 5+++ next to abandon caught a lot of people off guard on how to deal with them. The one game i did lose was vs a dark angel force on a board covered in city ruins. He put everything in the buildings covering the floors so that there was no room for my guys to get up to him and then the mission was simply kill points so it was an uphill battle...

Thankfully we are talking about switching to chapter approved missions going forward for our local tournaments. It should prevent the problem of "oh its kills points, i can just castle up and shoot you as you come because i dont have to move, you do".


What equipment do you take on your defilers?
Just curious.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 13:29:39


Post by: Azuza001


That game i took them as cheap as i could, reaper auto cannons and defiler scourges. My plan was to move them as fast as possible up the field to get into cc with them, the shooting was just a bonus. In my tson list my defiler always gets twin las and the scourge. This makes it a very reliable source of anti tank and a great back field defensive unit. No one wants to charge a defiler hanging out with arhiman in the back field unless they have to.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 16:59:07


Post by: techsoldaten


Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often.

Other than the fact that CP farming is distasteful, wondering if there's a reason this happens less often with Chaos armies. Is it that our units cost too much, is it that our Stratagems don't have as much impact, is it that people just dislike R&H, or is it something else? Personally, I'd pay the requisite number of points to get Endless Cacophony off a couple more times in a game. That alone could be a reason to use more Noise Marines.

Part of the reason I'm asking, the new Imperial detachments in Vigilus are pretty interesting. I'm guessing that the next chapter will come with some for our guys. Given that you have to pay CP to use these detachments, feels like some form of farming would be a good thing to have.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 17:23:17


Post by: akaean


I think it was a mix of things. Largely though I think cultists have a lot to do with it.

Chaos HQs, while not particularly cheap, are usually pretty solid and units that you want around. Especially things like Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Since you would be taking those HQ choices anyway it just made sense to take 30x Cultists and go from there.

Not only that, but the Legion traits available to cultists are quite a bit better than those available to R&H. Even if you are running something like Thousand Sons or Chaos Daemons, your CP Battery could be Alpha Legion and enjoy a -1 to hit for a bit of added durability. By contrast the R&H Covenants are in general weaker than the legion traits AND require you to commit a R&H Commander as your warlord. The Cultists also benefit from stratagems like Veterans of the Long War, Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony, which gives considerable upside if you are willing to invest in a larger squad of them.

That said, now that Cultists are 5 points per model, while militia continues to be 4 points per model, R&H becomes a more interesting choice. They may be cheaper than a Guard Battalion, but they are a lot weaker. In addition to costing the same, with worse armor and worse accuracy, they also do not have regimental traits and a complete lack of stratagems and strong relics / Warlord Traits. R&H bring nothing comparable to the Khurov's Aquila or Grand Strategist.

It is worth discussing an allied detachment of R&H in light of the cultist nerf for players wanting cheap access to CP to fuel endless cacophony and other resource intensive stratagems, but I can see why people would do it. Anyway, if you are going to toss in some allied R&H, I would also pick up some of those dirty cheap mortar teams to fill out your Heavy Support, at 8 points a pop, why not! Its also worth considering going all the way and taking a brigade. Elite- enforcers, Fast- Spawn, Heavy- Mortar Teams. You can fill out a really cheap Brigade for a lot of CP.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 18:57:42


Post by: Azuza001


 akaean wrote:
I think it was a mix of things. Largely though I think cultists have a lot to do with it.

Chaos HQs, while not particularly cheap, are usually pretty solid and units that you want around. Especially things like Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Since you would be taking those HQ choices anyway it just made sense to take 30x Cultists and go from there.

Not only that, but the Legion traits available to cultists are quite a bit better than those available to R&H. Even if you are running something like Thousand Sons or Chaos Daemons, your CP Battery could be Alpha Legion and enjoy a -1 to hit for a bit of added durability. By contrast the R&H Covenants are in general weaker than the legion traits AND require you to commit a R&H Commander as your warlord. The Cultists also benefit from stratagems like Veterans of the Long War, Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony, which gives considerable upside if you are willing to invest in a larger squad of them.

That said, now that Cultists are 5 points per model, while militia continues to be 4 points per model, R&H becomes a more interesting choice. They may be cheaper than a Guard Battalion, but they are a lot weaker. In addition to costing the same, with worse armor and worse accuracy, they also do not have regimental traits and a complete lack of stratagems and strong relics / Warlord Traits. R&H bring nothing comparable to the Khurov's Aquila or Grand Strategist.

It is worth discussing an allied detachment of R&H in light of the cultist nerf for players wanting cheap access to CP to fuel endless cacophony and other resource intensive stratagems, but I can see why people would do it. Anyway, if you are going to toss in some allied R&H, I would also pick up some of those dirty cheap mortar teams to fill out your Heavy Support, at 8 points a pop, why not! Its also worth considering going all the way and taking a brigade. Elite- enforcers, Fast- Spawn, Heavy- Mortar Teams. You can fill out a really cheap Brigade for a lot of CP.


That and the unnatural hate some play groups have towards forgeworld. Myself its because i am already taking cultists with my marines and i dont like the idea of taking 32 models thats job is to just earn cp. The models have to have a use on the battlefield or i dont want to see them.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 19:15:51


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often..


I'm tempted. My khorne daemons are very CP hungry


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 19:22:05


Post by: Not Online!!!


 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often.

Other than the fact that CP farming is distasteful, wondering if there's a reason this happens less often with Chaos armies. Is it that our units cost too much, is it that our Stratagems don't have as much impact, is it that people just dislike R&H, or is it something else? Personally, I'd pay the requisite number of points to get Endless Cacophony off a couple more times in a game. That alone could be a reason to use more Noise Marines.

Part of the reason I'm asking, the new Imperial detachments in Vigilus are pretty interesting. I'm guessing that the next chapter will come with some for our guys. Given that you have to pay CP to use these detachments, feels like some form of farming would be a good thing to have.


Yes, i even use more then that.

I'd imagine now that cultists are 5ppm because feth chaos and pay your damn spike tax, milita or mutants become somewhat interesting.
R&H however, and that needs to be pointed out, have no stratagems beyond the rulebook one, field some inate disadvantages like random LD (d6+2 on most units) and unfortunately is FW, as has allready been pointed out to you, ergo some people will get angry about you obviously using broken rules. (reference to Unit1126PLL sig for further information on that mindset)

Personally, i had sucess with adding in stuff that normaly is lacking in a CSM army, indirect fire f.e. since R&H mortars are cheap and more numerous as their IG counterpart, they are a good unit, even pts wise. Militia, whilest not durable in the classical sense and having normally some problems with their random leadership can get surprisingly stubborn if you hand them a vox and play 24/7 propaganda to them via command squads.
Command Squads /Disciples (really nearly the same unit) are better IG veterans, and in a pinch can be thrown into melee.Marauders are snipers, suicide squads, everything really. (not to mention that they can have an always on -1 to hit against them on any distance, aswell as profit from +2 to their 5+ armor if sitting in cover.)

You technically also can use ogryn darts: for reference that is a valkyrie, filled with 3 ogryn berserkers and a berserker boss with energy drill charging instantly after their arrival thanks to grav insertion.


It is worth discussing an allied detachment of R&H in light of the cultist nerf for players wanting cheap access to CP to fuel endless cacophony and other resource intensive stratagems, but I can see why people would do it. Anyway, if you are going to toss in some allied R&H, I would also pick up some of those dirty cheap mortar teams to fill out your Heavy Support, at 8 points a pop, why not! Its also worth considering going all the way and taking a brigade. Elite- enforcers, Fast- Spawn, Heavy- Mortar Teams. You can fill out a really cheap Brigade for a lot of CP.


Heavy stubbers are now 5 pts per team. If you really want to generate CP take a brigade, use them instead, because for 15 pts you can fill a HS slot.

Bascially this

HQ 2 renegade commanders 50 pts

Elits 3x4 Command Squad disciples 72 pts

Standard 6x10 Milita or mutant 240 pts

Fast attack: 3x1 Spawn 75 pts

Heavy suppord 3x3 Heavy stubbers 45 pts.

total 482 pts. for 12 cp and some easily modifyable templates aswell as acess to mortars/ stubbers.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 20:04:32


Post by: techsoldaten


Azuza001 wrote:
That and the unnatural hate some play groups have towards forgeworld. Myself its because i am already taking cultists with my marines and i dont like the idea of taking 32 models thats job is to just earn cp. The models have to have a use on the battlefield or i dont want to see them.


Getting in the way of things that would charge and grabbing objectives is a good battlefield role. 32 wounds for less than the cost of a laspred is not exactly useless. It's not very useful, but it's not useless.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 21:15:10


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I may have missed it, but doesn't look like renegade spawn got the points cut as per the other spawn.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 21:19:23


Post by: timetowaste85


 techsoldaten wrote:
Question: does anyone use a R&H "Loyal 32" force for CP farming? Despite the fact it's 10 points less than the Loyalist equivalent, I haven't seen this done very often.

Other than the fact that CP farming is distasteful, wondering if there's a reason this happens less often with Chaos armies. Is it that our units cost too much, is it that our Stratagems don't have as much impact, is it that people just dislike R&H, or is it something else? Personally, I'd pay the requisite number of points to get Endless Cacophony off a couple more times in a game. That alone could be a reason to use more Noise Marines.

Part of the reason I'm asking, the new Imperial detachments in Vigilus are pretty interesting. I'm guessing that the next chapter will come with some for our guys. Given that you have to pay CP to use these detachments, feels like some form of farming would be a good thing to have.


I think it’s because we chaos players are more honorable.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 21:53:02


Post by: Not Online!!!


Captyn_Bob wrote:
I may have missed it, but doesn't look like renegade spawn got the points cut as per the other spawn.

Most recent update is to be taken, they are virtually the same unit ergo you take the newest datasheet for it.
Alternativly you could take 3x1 scout sentinel with a ML for 35 pts and would pay 512 pts.
Which is still incredibly low for a brigade.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 22:06:17


Post by: Abaddon303


The butcher canon -2 to leadership, when it says it doesn't stack does it just mean with itself, so other butcher canons?
If a unit took casualties from a butcher canon whilst also within Haarken's aura would they be at -3? A follow up charge with a unit of raptors would put them at -4 which could be quite an effective situation?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 22:14:00


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Abaddon303 wrote:
The butcher canon -2 to leadership, when it says it doesn't stack does it just mean with itself, so other butcher canons?
If a unit took casualties from a butcher canon whilst also within Haarken's aura would they be at -3? A follow up charge with a unit of raptors would put them at -4 which could be quite an effective situation?

I would assume given the wording it doesn't stack with itself , and all other modifiers apply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On that thought.. this is a concept list with a Lot of leadership debuffers.
- 8 leadership possible.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

+ HQ +

Be'lakor: Death Hex, Infernal Gaze

Herald of Slaanesh on Steed: Cacophonic Choir

+ Troops +

Bloodletters: 25x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Haarken Worldclaimer

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn: 3x Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn: 3x Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn: 3x Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Night Lords

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Bolt pistol, Force sword, No Chaos Mark, Prescience, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought
. Left Arm: Butcher cannon
. Right Arm: Ectoplasma cannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought
. Left Arm: Butcher cannon
. Right Arm: Butcher cannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought
. Left Arm: Butcher cannon
. Right Arm: Butcher cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Raptors: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. 3x Raptor
. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Raptor w/ special weapon: Meltagun

Raptors: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. 3x Raptor
. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Raptor w/ special weapon: Meltagun

Raptors: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle
. 3x Raptor
. Raptor Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Raptor w/ special weapon: Meltagun

++ Total: [132 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/18 22:19:03


Post by: Azuza001


 techsoldaten wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
That and the unnatural hate some play groups have towards forgeworld. Myself its because i am already taking cultists with my marines and i dont like the idea of taking 32 models thats job is to just earn cp. The models have to have a use on the battlefield or i dont want to see them.


Getting in the way of things that would charge and grabbing objectives is a good battlefield role. 32 wounds for less than the cost of a laspred is not exactly useless. It's not very useful, but it's not useless.


I don't argue that at all. But i am looking at expanding my black legion to 2 x 40 cultists hanging with abaddon and 20 chaos marines (yes the 13 pt basic ones) with mark of slaanesh with a sorcerer with warptime and delightful agonies. In that type of force another 32 guys are just kinda there. If your playing a chaos force and not using the chaos marine troop choices then yeah, the disloyal 32 could be very useful.

Plan is abaddon hangs out with some heavy support (at the moment 3 hellbrutes with missile launcher and dual las) with 80 cultists screening out hooding objectives near my deployment zone. Then the 20 marines and the sorcerer moves towards a center or enemy objective. With black legion if i need them to move fast they can advance and still fire, with the sorcerer giving them a 5+++ fnp and warptime if they need to move even faster. 20 marines isnt the easiest thing to kill and if they do get focused dowm there are still 80 cultists that can do work.

On the marine front, i know they are not the best, but 260 pts give up 20 marines vs 200 pts for 40 cultists. Marines are much more durable 3+/5+++ vs 6+/5+++ and their guns can do more damage (str 4 is much better than str 3, especially when you multiply the force with endless canophy and vets of the long war). Finally the marines can work independently of a chaos lord or abaddon thanks to the single cp strat "let the galaxy burn". I am looking forward to trying this, especially since marine models are so easy to get ahold of thanks to their status online.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 00:16:27


Post by: Nature's Minister


Lots of armies can negate morale. Others bring minimum squads. And for two points you can save any squad that had taken heavy casualties.

Why would you build an army around morale modifiers


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 04:28:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 05:58:05


Post by: techsoldaten


Azuza001 wrote:
I don't argue that at all. But i am looking at expanding my black legion to 2 x 40 cultists hanging with abaddon and 20 chaos marines (yes the 13 pt basic ones) with mark of slaanesh with a sorcerer with warptime and delightful agonies. In that type of force another 32 guys are just kinda there. If your playing a chaos force and not using the chaos marine troop choices then yeah, the disloyal 32 could be very useful.


Sounds like an interesting list. I'm all for Abaddon! What's it cost, 1000 points?

Here's where most Black Legion players start off with on command points:

+3 for playing
+2 for Abaddon as Warlord
+5 for a Battalion

That's fine if all you are looking to do with Stratagems is a reroll each turn and Tide of Traitors. But Vigilus introduces the idea of detachments you can only access through CPs, which come with their own Stratagems. In that case, 10 might not be enough, especially if you're taking more than one specialist detachment.

While I liked the suggestion for going after a brigade, I think that costs about 400 points. I'd have to see what the Stratagems are before I'd be willing to eat that many points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


That's a really good detachment to compare with. Pay an additional 100+ points to get 5+ CPs and better board control.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 09:40:00


Post by: Raichase


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


I'll second that - Nurglings are very often ignored. I usually just plonk them on objectives and leave them there. If someone wants to shoot them, cool, that's firepower not going into something expensive. If they charge them, unless they have a lot of weapons that do more than 1 damage, the Nurglings get their 5+ and then their Disgustingly Resilient, so they're not steamrolled like Cultists can be (hold on, let me make my 10 6+ saves... yeah they're gone)


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 11:23:24


Post by: slave.entity


The only reason I use cultists is to fill out my third Thousand Sons battalion with Ahriman and DP. Otherwise I'd probably take Nurglings every time. At 5 ppm it's still worth it for me since my daemons-heavy list really needs the 18CP to auto-pass morale every turn. But in terms of board presence and durability Nurglings are just incredible. MVPs every game.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 14:28:46


Post by: Abaddon303


Anybody know when they'll add the lord from Blackstone fortress on to battlescribe? I thought it would be in there after the CA updates...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 18:37:57


Post by: BoomWolf


He's there for a while now, under "servants of the abyss"
Just add them as a sub-force to your CSM detachment if you want him in a BL detachment.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/19 22:52:26


Post by: Abaddon303


Huh so he is. Thanks!
That's a bit of a pain isn't it? Why haven't they just added him to black legion like Haarken?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 00:54:20


Post by: BoomWolf


Because none of the other servants of the abyss are CSM I guess...?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 02:41:23


Post by: lindsay40k


Here, what’s the current thinking on Decimators? I like the idea of having one in an Epidemius list, but the Soulburner feels really expensive now. Butcher cannon I’m not sure about, as this list aims for complete kills - every unit that has one survivor run away feels like a lost opportunity to power up Epi...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 03:07:32


Post by: Nature's Minister


Decimators are super expensive now compared to contemptors, aren't they? The chassis alone is 50 points more, and it doesn't synergize too well with your Epidemius. Unless you absolutely want it for Daemonforge, you'd prolly be better off with another daemon prince or something


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 04:31:24


Post by: Ap0k


Nature's Minister wrote:
Decimators are super expensive now compared to contemptors, aren't they? The chassis alone is 50 points more


Not sure where you're getting your numbers from. Double Butcher Decimator is 140 whilst a double butcher Contemptor is 138.

Virtually none of the other Decimator weapons are worth taking from a point efficiency perspective. There may be an edge case for Soulburners vs 4+ invulns or better whilst also under the effects of re-roll all misses, but for general purpose efficiency, it's butchers all the way.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 06:14:29


Post by: orkswubwub


 Ap0k wrote:
Nature's Minister wrote:
Decimators are super expensive now compared to contemptors, aren't they? The chassis alone is 50 points more


Not sure where you're getting your numbers from. Double Butcher Decimator is 140 whilst a double butcher Contemptor is 138.

Virtually none of the other Decimator weapons are worth taking from a point efficiency perspective. There may be an edge case for Soulburners vs 4+ invulns or better whilst also under the effects of re-roll all misses, but for general purpose efficiency, it's butchers all the way.


Granted, but contemptors get the legion trait, hit on 2+ and have 2 more wounds with a better invul in melee. Aside from the higher movement range, not sure what butcher Decimator has going for it.

Well I guess they have the daemon and daemon engine...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


How do nurglings help get more out of the alpha legion trait post nerf?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 09:44:22


Post by: Not Online!!!


 lindsay40k wrote:
Here, what’s the current thinking on Decimators? I like the idea of having one in an Epidemius list, but the Soulburner feels really expensive now. Butcher cannon I’m not sure about, as this list aims for complete kills - every unit that has one survivor run away feels like a lost opportunity to power up Epi...


It got cheaper with butcher cannons,
It is a daemon engine with bs3+
It has the daemon keyword.
It has infernal regeneration, ergo it is actually not to terrible.
It has M10.

It has it's uses, daemonforge stratagem makes it surprisngly accurate, it can take some punishment, it comes with daemon synergy.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 09:48:39


Post by: lindsay40k


orkswubwub wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


How do nurglings help get more out of the alpha legion trait post nerf?


Potentially drawing irate enemy forwards into charge/double-tap range?

Incidentally: what’s great about Slaanesh daemon spells? I usually end up Smiting with my mounted Herald, main thing she brings for me is an aura of +1S Advance-and-charge Fiends, Possessed, Defilers, and Maulerfiends? Hysterical Frenzy is awesome when it pays off, but requires quite a bit alignment and luck. Now I can afford my KoS, I’m not certain what else to take... the Ld attacks seem like a liability when I’m trying to make units sniff my Fiends until their own fight phase. -1 to hit debuff usually only affects a modest screening unit.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 15:49:03


Post by: Azuza001


I always take the -1 hit, forcing more misses is always good. The other spells just seem too situational or flat not as good.


Cacophonic choir : a mortal wound attack based on rolling over leadership, good if your running a leadership crippling force or face an enemy with bad leadership, otherwise not as good vs smite.

Symphony of pain : -1 to hit, yes that will do nicely.

Hysterical frenzy: i can fight you in my psycic phase? Sweet! Oh, i already have to be within an inch, so i have to hope that either you charged me last turn and i wasnt killed in one bout of fighting or i charged you and for 2 cc phases we have kept in cc? Nevermind...

Delightful agonies: its easier to cast than the marine version but also worse, and honestly you would rather cast the marine version on a forgefiend or defiler than this one.

Pavane of slaanesh: this has potential since you get more rolls the bigger the squad is, but the bigger the squad is the more likely its going to be less bothered by mortal wounds. Still not a bad backup. Also targetable so there is that.

Phantasmagoria : a leadership debuff, again like the choir good if your going with a leadership bomb force like night lords but otherwise wont come up often enough to matter thanks the large number of ways most armies have to ignore the moral phase.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 23:23:28


Post by: ZergSmasher


orkswubwub wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
To me, if you want a cheap CP battery I'd say stick to a Daemons detachment of 3x 3 Nurgling bases and 2 Heralds (any flavor, but Nurgle and Slaanesh are probably best for the spells). Comes to about 300-ish points, but will probably do you more good than a R&H battalion. Nurglings are among the best troops Chaos has access to and are a must have if you want to get good mileage out of the Alpha Legion strat (even after the nerf). Now that Cultists have gone up to 5 ppm, a min unit of them is almost as costly as 3 bases of Nurglings, and frankly I'd rather have the Nurglings most of the time.


How do nurglings help get more out of the alpha legion trait post nerf?

They provide a bubble where your opponent can't deploy their own infiltrators, which could otherwise block your infiltrate move as I'm pretty sure you have to stay a certain distance from enemy models after the move. This ensures that your unit will have somewhere to move up to. It's not as important as it was before the nerf to the stratagem, but still helpful to have.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/20 23:27:53


Post by: First Among Gators


After seeing great success with my Tyranids the last few years, I'm going to put the final touches on them for post-CA meta, and then finally take a break from painting the one and only race that I've painted and played for so many years, and starting in the beginning of 2019, move on to my second army ever - Thrice-Cursed Traitors (aka Sons of Horus in the new millennium).

I'll be running Black Legion ruleset obviously, and softly mixing them with a Thousand Sons detachment belonging to my partner, who insists I have to take some of her Rubrics out to victory this year too (she doesn't play but loves painting).

Here's what I'm building into:



Black Legion Battalion:

Abaddon
Flying Daemon Prince of Khorne

40x Slaaneshi Cultists
5x CSM, Power Fist
5x CSM, Power Fist

7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes


Thousand Sons Battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Flying Daemon Prince

25x Tzaangor, Brayhorn
5x Rubrics
5x Rubrics




Aggressive power-armor heavy Chaos list. I like how Chosen look a lot post-CA, and they win out vs Oblits for me, especially in a BL detachment to run and gun, benefit from all 3 Abaddon bubbles, and provide much greater versatility (something I always like to include and lean on in my play). A good chunk of of CC, might try find points to a put a Fist on each Chosen champion, but also considering putting more empty Chosen bodies in the squads to get more longevity out of the Plasma. Unsure whether the Daemon Prince stays Khornate or whether to grab a Nurgle one or even a sorceror for some more casting. Was also considering Flamer bikes but I'm not sure it's something that the list needs, even if they are cute.

Looking forward to expanding my game in 2018. Love me some traitor bois


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 01:02:06


Post by: Azuza001


 First Among Gators wrote:
After seeing great success with my Tyranids the last few years, I'm going to put the final touches on them for post-CA meta, and then finally take a break from painting the one and only race that I've painted and played for so many years, and starting in the beginning of 2019, move on to my second army ever - Thrice-Cursed Traitors (aka Sons of Horus in the new millennium).

I'll be running Black Legion ruleset obviously, and softly mixing them with a Thousand Sons detachment belonging to my partner, who insists I have to take some of her Rubrics out to victory this year too (she doesn't play but loves painting).

Here's what I'm building into:



Black Legion Battalion:

Abaddon
Flying Daemon Prince of Khorne

40x Slaaneshi Cultists
5x CSM, Power Fist
5x CSM, Power Fist

7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes


Thousand Sons Battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Flying Daemon Prince

25x Tzaangor, Brayhorn
5x Rubrics
5x Rubrics




Aggressive power-armor heavy Chaos list. I like how Chosen look a lot post-CA, and they win out vs Oblits for me, especially in a BL detachment to run and gun, benefit from all 3 Abaddon bubbles, and provide much greater versatility (something I always like to include and lean on in my play). A good chunk of of CC, might try find points to a put a Fist on each Chosen champion, but also considering putting more empty Chosen bodies in the squads to get more longevity out of the Plasma. Unsure whether the Daemon Prince stays Khornate or whether to grab a Nurgle one or even a sorceror for some more casting. Was also considering Flamer bikes but I'm not sure it's something that the list needs, even if they are cute.

Looking forward to expanding my gain in 2018. Love me some traitor bois



I like your list, couple of things though.

Slaanesh dp in a chaos army is stronger than khone one. The slaanssh dp gets to cast spells (5+++ is amazing, so is the option for demonic strength uf you want a bit of a boost, and the option to deny powers is useful as well) and the relic makes the slaanesh dp stronger in cc than the khorne one.

The 2 5 man teams of chaos marines also wont get you very far with that loadout. Swap that power fist out to a las cannon or missile launcher, you will want the extra long range fire support more than the cc punch that probably will never get there. As for the choosen, I wouldn't go that plasma heavy, 4 combi plasma should be more than enough. Still go with 7 guys though, lets you have a few ablative wounds in the squads.

Otherwise looks solid. Love me some 5 man rubric squads, though if you could find yourself enough for a rhino that would give them some needed mobility.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 12:27:01


Post by: First Among Gators


Azuza001 wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
After seeing great success with my Tyranids the last few years, I'm going to put the final touches on them for post-CA meta, and then finally take a break from painting the one and only race that I've painted and played for so many years, and starting in the beginning of 2019, move on to my second army ever - Thrice-Cursed Traitors (aka Sons of Horus in the new millennium).

I'll be running Black Legion ruleset obviously, and softly mixing them with a Thousand Sons detachment belonging to my partner, who insists I have to take some of her Rubrics out to victory this year too (she doesn't play but loves painting).

Here's what I'm building into:



Black Legion Battalion:

Abaddon
Flying Daemon Prince of Khorne

40x Slaaneshi Cultists
5x CSM, Power Fist
5x CSM, Power Fist

7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes
7x Chosen of Slaanesh, 6 Plasma, Chainaxes


Thousand Sons Battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Flying Daemon Prince

25x Tzaangor, Brayhorn
5x Rubrics
5x Rubrics




Aggressive power-armor heavy Chaos list. I like how Chosen look a lot post-CA, and they win out vs Oblits for me, especially in a BL detachment to run and gun, benefit from all 3 Abaddon bubbles, and provide much greater versatility (something I always like to include and lean on in my play). A good chunk of of CC, might try find points to a put a Fist on each Chosen champion, but also considering putting more empty Chosen bodies in the squads to get more longevity out of the Plasma. Unsure whether the Daemon Prince stays Khornate or whether to grab a Nurgle one or even a sorceror for some more casting. Was also considering Flamer bikes but I'm not sure it's something that the list needs, even if they are cute.

Looking forward to expanding my gain in 2018. Love me some traitor bois



I like your list, couple of things though.

Slaanesh dp in a chaos army is stronger than khone one. The slaanssh dp gets to cast spells (5+++ is amazing, so is the option for demonic strength uf you want a bit of a boost, and the option to deny powers is useful as well) and the relic makes the slaanesh dp stronger in cc than the khorne one.

The 2 5 man teams of chaos marines also wont get you very far with that loadout. Swap that power fist out to a las cannon or missile launcher, you will want the extra long range fire support more than the cc punch that probably will never get there. As for the choosen, I wouldn't go that plasma heavy, 4 combi plasma should be more than enough. Still go with 7 guys though, lets you have a few ablative wounds in the squads.

Otherwise looks solid. Love me some 5 man rubric squads, though if you could find yourself enough for a rhino that would give them some needed mobility.

Great response, thanks a lot, this is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for, really significant tweaking without saying "scrap your army and buy new stuff instead"

You're probably right about the Chaos Marines, they are the armies main scorers and those power fists are not going to be making their points back every game. However for just a few points it gives them some teeth for holding backfield objectives.... and it's really cheap. After a round or 2 of combat, it's probably the difference of whether or not the squad gives up an objective to a Lictor or not for example. The point drop makes it pretty enticing to me.
I will swap to Slaanesh DP with the relic, that makes perfect sense.
Are you sure 3x4 Plasma's is enough? The only other AT I really have is Smites, and I guess the Prince. It would definitely be a lot more efficient running them with the extra wounds like that though, and maybe a Lascannon in each of the CSM squads may shore that up a little.
Rhino for the Rubrics may be a great idea, especially since they can't run and gun like the Black Legion detachment. I think the only real way I'm throwing that in is by swapping the Prince down to a Sorceror, though considering I'm planning on painting 1 of all of them, I'll probably just see if I find myself feeling like I need it once I start playing and just swap accordingly.

Thanks for the great reply, and for taking into account what I'm going for in your response.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 13:53:32


Post by: akaean


Chaos players tend to have a love hate relationship with Rhinos.
I personally like them. They actually have pretty decent fire power for their price point, since you can take two (2) combi bolters, and a havoc launcher which also enjoyed a substantial price drop. They clock in at 80 points with 2 combi bolters and a havoc launcher. Just slightly more expensive than a 5 man CSM squad with a heavy weapon and roughly the same firepower.

The main draw of the Rhino is that it can transport your guys, act as mobile line of sight blocking terrain while it is alive. And charge things to absorb over watch or prevent a unit from shooting. Its a really nice toolbox of abilities that it opens up. They just fold pretty quickly under anti tank firepower, and in a meta that requires players be able to evaporate a knight in a turn, there is often enough anti tank on the table to trash your Rhinos. Still. I don't leave home without at least one.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 14:39:43


Post by: Azuza001


Agreed, rhinos are terrific units. Fast, durable for the cost, and can put out some serious fire power. The ability to transport a small troop choice up can help a lot as well, especially for poor rubrics that are otherwise just too slow

I understand the idea behind the powerfists, at 9pts they still seem too high for what they do. If they were flat 2 dmg it would be different, but thats wish listing vs reality. Still they can add that little extra punch if something big gets too close. But vs a hoard army its overkill and also worse than a power maul or power axe. So i guess your meta would determine whats best for that situation.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 14:55:07


Post by: vaklor4


Azuza001 wrote:
Agreed, rhinos are terrific units. Fast, durable for the cost, and can put out some serious fire power. The ability to transport a small troop choice up can help a lot as well, especially for poor rubrics that are otherwise just too slow

I understand the idea behind the powerfists, at 9pts they still seem too high for what they do. If they were flat 2 dmg it would be different, but thats wish listing vs reality. Still they can add that little extra punch if something big gets too close. But vs a hoard army its overkill and also worse than a power maul or power axe. So i guess your meta would determine whats best for that situation.


I think power fists are a better choice for elite units. On a Berzerker captain or chaos lord it EASILY makes its points, but on a generic marine dishing out 1-2 attacks, of course it seems over costed at 9 its easily worth it.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 19:44:12


Post by: Abaddon303


A fist on a berserker champ is getting you six swings from that 9pts, in a unit that's worth investing the points etc to ensure it gets into combat (warptime, rhino, icon of wrath etc)
Would I spend 9pts on a 2 swing marine champ that probably won't get into combat? No basically. Marine troops are bad, keep them at distance and in cover and they might just survive long enough to score you some points.
You're better off putting that 9pts towards an autocannon/h.bolter or even lascannon and hope they do some damage whilst camping. If they get charged, your opponent has probably committed something worthwhile charging with and they'll be wiped pretty quick before you even get to swing that fist... If you want them to have some bite give the champ a chain axe and call it a day but really the only thing marines are killing in melee is chaff where you're extra chainsword attack is probably more useful anyway.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 19:49:24


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


The Autocannon would be better as it cam help with any potential W2 threats.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 22:22:31


Post by: Abaddon303


Autocannons are a serious consideration now at 10pts. Especially considering the amount of invulnerable save elite infantry knocking around and the fact our imperial friends are gonna be spamming the 2pt storm shields...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/21 23:20:17


Post by: Raichase


I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 01:40:25


Post by: First Among Gators


 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Autocannons are a serious consideration now at 10pts. Especially considering the amount of invulnerable save elite infantry knocking around and the fact our imperial friends are gonna be spamming the 2pt storm shields...

Yeah, Autogun Havocs might be really efficient takes at about 100pts for a squad of 4 now


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 02:11:40


Post by: lindsay40k


My personal tactica is ‘build stuff that looks cool and make it come together into something viable, if not now then after an FAQ police change or flex on the shelf til a new Codex’. 3pts off all my pointy finger power fist champions - most of whom have a combi-weapon that’s also been discounted - suits me fine. I mostly take them in chosen, Zerks, and noise Marines, so they usually find themselves liable to getting into some sort of pagga, and ability to break a dreadnought’s jaw is nice to have. Not efficient, but an army doesn’t have to minimax everything to be effective - if a 210pt unit successfully stops a 140pt unit from executing a winning manoeuvre, that’s fine by me. And if my dudes have to do a suicide attack to fulfil their purpose, and their champion survives the counter-strike long enough to kill more than 9pts of models, the fist’s kinda paid for itself.

If anything, I’m looking at my lightning claw champs and thinking that +1pt & -1ws for +4str & D3 damage is a very tempting payoff. I dunno, I’d maybe value LCs at 7/11...?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 03:15:34


Post by: Red Corsair


 First Among Gators wrote:
 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.




That still doesn't justify the inefficiency though. Your looking at averaging 1 hit, how is that clearing anything that comes close? A power fist on a 5 man unit like you listed does one thing really well, it tricks you into using the unit for the wrong task and gets your squad killed. Your better off taking a chain ax and combi bolter on sarge and a flamer in the squad if your worried about small light objective stealing units. Anything justifying a power fist will end badly for your unit either way, so equip the squad with the right tool for their job.

Now, if you lack the models for other options and this is what you currently have, then fine, but it's objectively worse then other takes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lindsay40k wrote:
My personal tactica is ‘build stuff that looks cool and make it come together into something viable, if not now then after an FAQ police change or flex on the shelf til a new Codex’. 3pts off all my pointy finger power fist champions - most of whom have a combi-weapon that’s also been discounted - suits me fine. I mostly take them in chosen, Zerks, and noise Marines, so they usually find themselves liable to getting into some sort of pagga, and ability to break a dreadnought’s jaw is nice to have. Not efficient, but an army doesn’t have to minimax everything to be effective - if a 210pt unit successfully stops a 140pt unit from executing a winning manoeuvre, that’s fine by me. And if my dudes have to do a suicide attack to fulfil their purpose, and their champion survives the counter-strike long enough to kill more than 9pts of models, the fist’s kinda paid for itself.

If anything, I’m looking at my lightning claw champs and thinking that +1pt & -1ws for +4str & D3 damage is a very tempting payoff. I dunno, I’d maybe value LCs at 7/11...?


The claw is still better IMHO, at least on none berserker champs. Your much more likely to inflict kills on targets you want to be in with. Anything that requires s8 and d3 damage is not where a regular sarge wants to be. I'd rather take a power sword even, you guys also have to consider your losing DttFE on that fist.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 04:23:31


Post by: First Among Gators


 Red Corsair wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.




That still doesn't justify for the inefficiency though. Your looking at averaging 1 hit, how is that clearing anything that comes close? A power fist on a 5 man unit like you listed does one thing really well, it tricks you into using the unit for the wrong task and gets your squad killed. Your better off taking a chain ax and combi bolter on sarge and a flamer in the squad if your worried about small light objective stealing units. Anything justifying a power fist will end badly for your unit either way, so equip the squad with the right tool for their job.

Now, if you lack the models for other options and this is what you currently have, then fine, but it's objectively worse then other takes.


But it is actually a justification the inefficiency, it acknowledges it and addresses it. Something might not technically math out as worth it's points, but it may still have an actual impact in practice that isn't actually replicated by more efficient options, and at very little opportunity cost. it's not about that it hits a lot, it's about where that 1 hit a turn (2 a round) actually is, and it's on a unit that needs to hold it's ground against backfield contestors and deepstrikers, and may likely stand alone from the army. The flame won't even touch that same Lictor phasing in for example. I'm able to resist the temptation of seeing a fist on my unit and feeling pressured to run it into a fight it has no business being in. No flat damage is a B, but I'll let that play out how it goes. Holding an objective is worth the very few points. It's a tip I learned from the best Marine player I've seen an it may not pay off every game, but on the games it does it can be a major difference for very little sacrifice. I respect your opinion of course, I think I just disagree at the moment.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 12:17:34


Post by: Raichase


 First Among Gators wrote:
 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.


You know what, I couldn't agree with you more. My comment was mostly addressing the idea of the choice to take one or the other, the autocannon will more often give results. You're 100% right that you can rationalise everything by points down to the wire, but a lot of things are situational game to game. I mean in one game you could have someone throw a low wound Rhino into one of your CSM units, you miss the autocannon in overwatch and then spend the assault phase trying to kick the last wound out of it. Boom, that's what your enemy wanted, that unit is out of commission next turn because they'll need to fall back to escape combat. Power fist champion steps up, rips a track off and removes the Rhino, and you're free to shoot normally next turn. So in that case, that power fist has been well worth it. Other games, you might be standing there thinking "why did I wear the giant foam #1 hand today) because the squad won't see anything even close to combat. So you know what, if you can squeeze them in and don't feel like the points would be better spent elsewhere, I say go for it. It's certainly a better buy for my money than a power axe would be, it's only a handful of points more and will potentially deter annoying transport units tying your squad up for a turn. More power to you!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 15:06:57


Post by: Azuza001


I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of power fists on srgs, i run them on my space wolves all the time. The issue becomes that 9 pts over 2 squads is enough to purchase another marine and a power sword. For that price the power fists dont make tactical sense here. And this is a tactics thread, where we are trying to find the best way to make things work. Best way to make powerfists work i think are choosen, give a squad of 10 3 power fists. This would give them a meaningful number of attacks (7) to make them a viable threat. Otherwise i would get a cheap charecter to sit with the marines, giving them reroll of 1, and use him as a deterrent.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 16:48:30


Post by: First Among Gators


2 attacks with a power sword and an extra body, or 4 attacks with a power fist? I'm not sure what you mean with that comparison but I don't really think that it comes out tactically in favor of the Sword.

Good idea with the Chosen. 7 PF attacks is like a mini Daemon Prince, I think that's definitely going to pack a punch


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 17:20:48


Post by: Red Corsair


 First Among Gators wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
 Raichase wrote:
I'd second the notion of adding an autocannon - not only is it less situational (a power fist NEEDS to be in combat to get any result whatsoever), it's a good catch-all weapon that can take on most enemies and still have a chance of getting damage through.

An upgrade doesn't have to worth its points every game to be worth the inclusion. At that cost, I'd rather have it and not want it, then want it and not have it. Being able to push off the random small units that may come down to contest an objective with a bit more gusto, or being able to contribute some sort of a bite if they are grabbing stuff up field, is to me worth 9 pts. I gave the example of it being the difference between whether or not it gives up an objective to a Lictor for example, and thats just the top of my head. Even with 2 attacks, that's 2 hits every battle round of combat and that probably doubles or triples the squads damage output in CC. I can still include the Autocannon as well. I think hidden Fists are pretty good at this price, If I feel they are costing me too much I'll take them out, but I find things like this are helpful. I may even try find the points to put 1 in with the Chosen squads as well.




That still doesn't justify for the inefficiency though. Your looking at averaging 1 hit, how is that clearing anything that comes close? A power fist on a 5 man unit like you listed does one thing really well, it tricks you into using the unit for the wrong task and gets your squad killed. Your better off taking a chain ax and combi bolter on sarge and a flamer in the squad if your worried about small light objective stealing units. Anything justifying a power fist will end badly for your unit either way, so equip the squad with the right tool for their job.

Now, if you lack the models for other options and this is what you currently have, then fine, but it's objectively worse then other takes.


But it is actually a justification the inefficiency, it acknowledges it and addresses it. Something might not technically math out as worth it's points, but it may still have an actual impact in practice that isn't actually replicated by more efficient options, and at very little opportunity cost. it's not about that it hits a lot, it's about where that 1 hit a turn (2 a round) actually is, and it's on a unit that needs to hold it's ground against backfield contestors and deepstrikers, and may likely stand alone from the army. The flame won't even touch that same Lictor phasing in for example. I'm able to resist the temptation of seeing a fist on my unit and feeling pressured to run it into a fight it has no business being in. No flat damage is a B, but I'll let that play out how it goes. Holding an objective is worth the very few points. It's a tip I learned from the best Marine player I've seen an it may not pay off every game, but on the games it does it can be a major difference for very little sacrifice. I respect your opinion of course, I think I just disagree at the moment.



No idea what your arguing about then. this is a tactics thread. I have plenty of options on models in my collection that I like or look cool, doesn't mean I am going to come onto a tactics thread and start trying to convince folks that all those options are worth fielding in a competitive game. This entire forum is generally focused on competition.

Now, if you want to hash ideas on how to make power fists or the sagrents wielding them work best because it is something your set on thats fine and plenty of folks on here will help assist you there.

I said it earlier, it's fine to take sub-optimal gear or units because you like them or want to make them work, or they fit your play style. I think your running into a bit of a wall with me at least because your trying to justify why they are worth taking in any list. Power fists on a 5 man squad like you had listed just isn't a great idea. You have to consider your using those points before taking a special, heavy, combi or even extra guys on a unit you are using to camp objectives. Power fists need to earn their points back, if your dead set on them then you need a plan to ghet them into combat. Suggesting they are some sort of contingency plan is just a poor strategy overall.

Hope that helps explain my position on the matter at least.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 18:23:26


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


On top of that, you were planning to camp said Marines anyway, so by that definition you need to equip them for that role.

Otherwise, it is 74 points of doing nothing but hold an objective. Instead, you could have 75 points that threatens W2 models or pick off wounds off a vehicle. A power fist won't help if the squad gets in melee, sorry.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 18:46:55


Post by: Abaddon303


What are you expecting your objective camping powerfist marine to be attacked by that he will survive the first round of combat and need to hit back with a powerfist. It's a very unlikely scenario. You're either getting mullered first round by something tough or hitting back against chaff where more attacks are more useful. If your opponent is stupid enough to charge you with a rhino or something, you keep control of the objective and now he can't shoot you in combat so you're better off being tied up.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/22 22:42:38


Post by: First Among Gators


 Red Corsair wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:

But it is actually a justification the inefficiency, it acknowledges it and addresses it. Something might not technically math out as worth it's points, but it may still have an actual impact in practice that isn't actually replicated by more efficient options, and at very little opportunity cost. it's not about that it hits a lot, it's about where that 1 hit a turn (2 a round) actually is, and it's on a unit that needs to hold it's ground against backfield contestors and deepstrikers, and may likely stand alone from the army. The flame won't even touch that same Lictor phasing in for example. I'm able to resist the temptation of seeing a fist on my unit and feeling pressured to run it into a fight it has no business being in. No flat damage is a B, but I'll let that play out how it goes. Holding an objective is worth the very few points. It's a tip I learned from the best Marine player I've seen an it may not pay off every game, but on the games it does it can be a major difference for very little sacrifice. I respect your opinion of course, I think I just disagree at the moment.



No idea what your arguing about then. this is a tactics thread. I have plenty of options on models in my collection that I like or look cool, doesn't mean I am going to come onto a tactics thread and start trying to convince folks that all those options are worth fielding in a competitive game. This entire forum is generally focused on competition.

No idea what you read, but it's not what I said. Nothing about my post said that the decision isn't focused on being competitive. I'm saying that the game is deeper than a simple math equation.

I'll try explain again. Having the stiff view that you shouldn't take an upgrade on a models because it isn't the most efficient use of the points, is imo flawed logic. Otherwise we shouldn't take melee upgrades on anything other than Chaos Lords since they get the most efficiency out of those 9 points by extension of the logic. Yeah, Power Fists on CSM Champs isn't the most efficient possible use of the points from a pure maths standpoint and nothing else, but it also doesn't need to be for it to be a good choice, because the utility it provides isn't replicated by spending the points on a more efficient model. And for a total of 18 points between two instances, which also translates to very little lost opportunity cost, that's not even a min size unit of anything, all those points would end up doing otherwise is just being 2 Cultists and a single Tzaangor, and they are already thick enough to do their job without a single model making a relevant difference.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 00:16:40


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Except Power Fists are flat out bad as an upgrade for them. That's not even up for debate. It's 2 attacks hitting on a 4+. The only Sergeant that makes any use of it will either 3 or more attacks.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 02:37:39


Post by: First Among Gators


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Power Fists are flat out bad as an upgrade for them. That's not even up for debate. It's 2 attacks hitting on a 4+. The only Sergeant that makes any use of it will either 3 or more attacks.

Except it is up for debate, and I disagree that the difference between 2 attacks and 3 attacks turns them from useful to "completely not up for discussion". That 1 extra attack on a Chosen on the other side of the board doesn't do anything for the 10 marines at the back of it. This really isn't that big of a deal.

 Raichase wrote:

You know what, I couldn't agree with you more. My comment was mostly addressing the idea of the choice to take one or the other, the autocannon will more often give results. You're 100% right that you can rationalise everything by points down to the wire, but a lot of things are situational game to game. I mean in one game you could have someone throw a low wound Rhino into one of your CSM units, you miss the autocannon in overwatch and then spend the assault phase trying to kick the last wound out of it. Boom, that's what your enemy wanted, that unit is out of commission next turn because they'll need to fall back to escape combat. Power fist champion steps up, rips a track off and removes the Rhino, and you're free to shoot normally next turn. So in that case, that power fist has been well worth it. Other games, you might be standing there thinking "why did I wear the giant foam #1 hand today) because the squad won't see anything even close to combat. So you know what, if you can squeeze them in and don't feel like the points would be better spent elsewhere, I say go for it. It's certainly a better buy for my money than a power axe would be, it's only a handful of points more and will potentially deter annoying transport units tying your squad up for a turn. More power to you!

Thanks! This is basically exactly what I'm saying.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 03:22:06


Post by: Nature's Minister


If we were rationalizing points down to the wire, we wouldn't be playing chaos space marines


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 03:29:12


Post by: lindsay40k


Nature's Minister wrote:
If we were rationalizing points down to the wire, we wouldn't be playing chaos space marines
Spoiler:


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 04:18:11


Post by: Azuza001


To be fair there are 3 reasons i play chaos competitively.

1. Kitbashing. Nothing says personality like chaos.
2. Potential. I feel chaos has a ton of untapped potential that never sees the light of day in competitive play.
3. Unexpected. Now days no one expects a complete, competitive chaos list, so when you show up with one you can really throw your local meta into a loop, which could hopefully work its way up to serious level tournament fuckery.

Having said that things like power fists on 5 or 6 man squads isnt a bad meta messser idea. If you play it right, vs the right opponent it will work fine. But in a straight up fight, its just not a valid, "tactical" option. Sometimes thats all you need to throw a curveball at the opponent. Most times its a waste of points. But there have been enough times in 8th edition history that the fact I took a power fist in a small squad was enough to help beat a rogue hive tyrant or whatever.

I am not saying its a good idea. I am saying sometimes being the meta breaker can win you games.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 04:21:01


Post by: First Among Gators


40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 04:51:36


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

What non-math reason is there for Power Fists? They're not scary on a 2 attack model, anything charging the squad will likely make sure to kill everyone and therefore it would've been wasted points, and the squad will just sit there not doing anything.

An Autocannon is a better mathematical choice AND strategic choice.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 04:52:05


Post by: Nature's Minister


Azuza001 wrote:
To be fair there are 3 reasons i play chaos competitively.

1. Kitbashing. Nothing says personality like chaos.
2. Potential. I feel chaos has a ton of untapped potential that never sees the light of day in competitive play.
3. Unexpected. Now days no one expects a complete, competitive chaos list, so when you show up with one you can really throw your local meta into a loop, which could hopefully work its way up to serious level tournament fuckery.


Chaos, or chaos space marines? Cuz everyone expects the former, but I am not sure the latter really exists anymore.

I mean, I love my iron warriors, but if I had to win a game, I wouldn't play them. If the dude wants to take a power fist over an autocannon in a tournament setting, it wouldn't make a difference cuz he's gonna get eaten by a guard and knight list or whatever anyway. If he wants to take it in a friendly game, efficiency doesn't really matter. In a narrative game, maybe that sergeant has a cool reason for having it


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 05:56:58


Post by: First Among Gators


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

What non-math reason is there for Power Fists? They're not scary on a 2 attack model, anything charging the squad will likely make sure to kill everyone and therefore it would've been wasted points, and the squad will just sit there not doing anything.

An Autocannon is a better mathematical choice AND strategic choice.

feel free to read the thread and see why I didn't agree, otherwise we're just going around in circles. I think both sides have said their piece constructively now and on such a minor issue, I think it's time to move ahead.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 06:08:58


Post by: Red Corsair


 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.


Your not making valid arguments your just arguing in platitudes. As I said, if you like the fists that bad why the need to justify it to everyone else in a tactics thread?

The entire focus of this thread is hashing out the best ways to make the army work. Your welcome to add parameters though. So if you are dead set on making fists work on sarge that's fine, the discussion moves along those boundaries, but that's not what you are doing at all. Your trying to convince us that it has hidden tactical value we all are looking past. OK, I am open now actually provide data beyond your gut inclination.

I am all for thinking outside the box btw, I also like using under represented options and models, just search my history lol. But you haven't put forth any real ideas. By all means change my mind, but your going to have to explain specifically how your making it work and why it isn't just for flair. As others have pointed out already, an autocanon is much easier to use and works VS everything that fist does and more, it also synergizes with the role of that unit better. So explain why I should take a power fist rather then an autocanon when I have 10pts to spend on my unit? And in case you nit pick over the 1pt, even with exactly 9 pts and not a single point more to spend, you would still need to convince me why it's better then a flamer on the squad and a combi bolter on sarge which is the exact same price.

A power fist can be a useful item, but far less useful in the hands of unit A as would be in the hands of unit B. Case and point is the berserker champ, he gets 6 bites at the apple and +2 to his strength for that same 9pts. Or even a chaos lord, 5 swings at higher WS. This is what folks are trying to explain to you. You are applying a fine piece of kit to the worst model in the army that has access to it. Even biker or raptor sarges make more sense. It is also puzzling that you are forfeiting the ranged gear both in the squad and champ upgrades to take it.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 07:07:58


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 First Among Gators wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.

What non-math reason is there for Power Fists? They're not scary on a 2 attack model, anything charging the squad will likely make sure to kill everyone and therefore it would've been wasted points, and the squad will just sit there not doing anything.

An Autocannon is a better mathematical choice AND strategic choice.

feel free to read the thread and see why I didn't agree, otherwise we're just going around in circles. I think both sides have said their piece constructively now and on such a minor issue, I think it's time to move ahead.

It isn't a minor issue, because it's 9 points of nothing basically. You either need to make the squad more focused for moving forward to melee (in which case you want the CCW loadout) or if you really do want to them to be on an objective you need them to be more dangerous for shooting. Camping with a Power Fist is mathematically bad AND strategically bad.

There's no defense, sorry.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 10:24:38


Post by: Abaddon303


I hate how everything on dakka descends into an argument but I'm sorry I can't see your logic here. Please describe a scenario where you might end up swinging that powerfist at something worthwhile and the 2pts of damage you could take off it will make any difference to the outcome of the battle.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 11:19:03


Post by: First Among Gators


 Red Corsair wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.


Your not making valid arguments your just arguing in platitudes. As I said, if you like the fists that bad why the need to justify it to everyone else in a tactics thread?

So because more people disagree than agree with me, that means I'm wrong? You shouldn't accuse others of fallacious arguments with that sort of stance. You're welcome to disagree, but you can drop this absurd narrative that I'm trying to force feed you some tactic. I didn't even expect it to get questioned, but since it has I've explained my reasoning.

 Red Corsair wrote:

The entire focus of this thread is hashing out the best ways to make the army work. Your welcome to add parameters though. So if you are dead set on making fists work on sarge that's fine, the discussion moves along those boundaries, but that's not what you are doing at all. Your trying to convince us that it has hidden tactical value we all are looking past. OK, I am open now actually provide data beyond your gut inclination.

That's not what I'm doing at all. Three times now I've clarified for you that I'm saying that my stance is that hey I feel this is a sound tactic so I'm going to go ahead and use it, not that this is a subpar tactic that I'm trying to find a use for and convince you of. At this point I'm inclined to believe you are either aware of this and refuse to acknowledge it, or aren't even reading through my posts, but either way let's drop this strawman. I too feel yours to be the less competitive, blinkered way of thinking that a lot of mid level players fall into, that if something doesn't math out slightly higher than a completely different option then it cannot possibly be competitive for the role!, but I'm not going to keep shouting you down about your opinions not being competitive and I recognise that we two people can disagree on something, so please show me the same courtesy.

 Red Corsair wrote:
As others have pointed out already, an autocanon is much easier to use and works VS everything that fist does and more, it also synergizes with the role of that unit better.

And as I've pointed out, the squad can also have an Autocannon (and it will).

 Red Corsair wrote:
you would still need to convince me why it's better then a flamer on the squad and a combi bolter on sarge which is the exact same price.

I've given my counter to this point and you ignored it, not sure how else to go forward from there. I'm not even remotely concerned if you're convinced or not, your view on the game seems a little too rigid to be flexed into this and I'm totally ok with that. We all play this game in a different way, yours is a little more rigid, mine is a little more fluid. I've received your advice loud and clear! Your logic hasn't convinced me and I disagree with your stance, but thanks for your contribution, let's move forward!


 Red Corsair wrote:
A power fist can be a useful item, but far less useful in the hands of unit A as would be in the hands of unit B. Case and point is the berserker champ, he gets 6 bites at the apple and +2 to his strength for that same 9pts.

Berzerkers cannot take Autocannons. Berzerkers are a glass cannon unit that want to be in CC, not sit on an objective. You would be paying so many points to hold ground on a backfield objective. A single powerfist costs 9 points, and helps push off anything that makes it into CC with you and gives you the teeth to win trades vs other min size troops in ob sec battles, or to help push off bulkier things like a vehicle or a Captain, without costing anywhere near enough to drastically change the role of the unit away from firmly holding objectives. Again, I've seen it used to great effect by the best Marine player I know, a guy who manages to travel and compete throughout every edition with Imperial Fists. I've felt it work vs me personally, smashing out Rippers quickly enough to retake the objective by a full turn just by putting a single PF in the squad. Remember you're swinging twice over a battle round before scores come through in ITC. It's often 4 attacks for simply 9 points. Again, I've said if it doesn't work I'll adjust, but as it stands I'm just going to hold it in there, so I think this particular issue of power fists is thoroughly hashed out as much as it can be now.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 12:23:38


Post by: Abaddon303


You want to stop rippers from taking your objective off you you're honestly better spending the points on a combi flamer. You'll do more damage in overwatch than you'll probably do with the fist


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was liking chosen since the points drop on them and combi weapons. But then I realised loyalist veterans can take advantage of the 2pt storm shield which just makes them so much stronger a base to invest special weapons on. Space marines in general are not in a good place but it got me thinking we really got shafted here. Our terminators are more expensive, we're getting excited by price of helbrutes but they got the exact same drop. And for 20pts they can make it 2+ bs/was T8 and a FNP. I'd pay 20pts for an always on prescience on a dakka brute alone.
It's got me thinking that we need to focus on stuff the loyalist don't have as it's our niche. So I'm thinking autocannons are more appealing, demon engines, and variants only we have access to like butcher cannon contemptors or all shooting Knights.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 13:38:56


Post by: Azuza001


I have always felt thats how chaos needs to work, focus on what we do differently than loyalists.

Cultists
Squads of 20
Demon engines
Demons in general
Hellbrutes (they do move further) in cc role
Obliterators
Specialist troops (beserkers / noise marines / ect....)

We shouldnt try to focus on doing the same things they can, we need to do what they cant.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 13:50:43


Post by: Abaddon303


Yep brutes are quicker than dreads but I think if you want your brute in combat you're better off with a maulerfiend


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 14:20:00


Post by: lindsay40k


Worth remembering that World Eaters brutes get +1S&A, Alpha Legion survive the journey more often, and Renegades ones can charge after advances. (Slaanesh Maulerfiends can, of course, do the latter with daemon support, which can also pip them up to S8.) Definitely want a Contemptor for my WE. You know I’ll Warptime it the minute an opportunity arises for it to chin a Knight.

Of course, the WE Trait can be duplicated (in fact, improved) on any HA unit by Diabolic Strength. Hell, I won a game where I ran a table length gauntlet with a Slaanesh daemon engines list against Space Wolves with Lascannons galore by casting it and Warptime on a Heldrake so it could eat Njal Stormcaller.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 14:47:32


Post by: Abaddon303


Oh that's true, brutes do benefit from legion traits. As a black legion player I always overlook that as our trait is so... Meh.
I love heldrakes, I really want one to do something awesome but I think the best I've ever got out of one is to shut down a little shooting and absorb some anti tank until it dies. :(


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 14:52:18


Post by: Azuza001


I have had some sucsess with my helldrake, i always find it depends on what your playing against though. Example: in one tournament i played first game vs tyranids the helldrake wrecked face. Killed a trygon, then flew across the table and mulched on some hive guard pounding on me from a distance. Did excellent. Next game vs marines I killed 5 scouts then died to a quad las pred....

Them are the breaks lol.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 14:52:51


Post by: Nature's Minister


What we do better than loyalists:

Smite spam / general psychic dominance
Morale immunity / tough board coverage
Cheap bombs that hit above their weight class
Daemon princes
Speed

Luckily that is enough to put a hurt on most armies you face


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 15:47:18


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 First Among Gators wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 First Among Gators wrote:
40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.


Your not making valid arguments your just arguing in platitudes. As I said, if you like the fists that bad why the need to justify it to everyone else in a tactics thread?

So because more people disagree than agree with me, that means I'm wrong? You shouldn't accuse others of fallacious arguments with that sort of stance. You're welcome to disagree, but you can drop this absurd narrative that I'm trying to force feed you some tactic. I didn't even expect it to get questioned, but since it has I've explained my reasoning.

 Red Corsair wrote:

The entire focus of this thread is hashing out the best ways to make the army work. Your welcome to add parameters though. So if you are dead set on making fists work on sarge that's fine, the discussion moves along those boundaries, but that's not what you are doing at all. Your trying to convince us that it has hidden tactical value we all are looking past. OK, I am open now actually provide data beyond your gut inclination.

That's not what I'm doing at all. Three times now I've clarified for you that I'm saying that my stance is that hey I feel this is a sound tactic so I'm going to go ahead and use it, not that this is a subpar tactic that I'm trying to find a use for and convince you of. At this point I'm inclined to believe you are either aware of this and refuse to acknowledge it, or aren't even reading through my posts, but either way let's drop this strawman. I too feel yours to be the less competitive, blinkered way of thinking that a lot of mid level players fall into, that if something doesn't math out slightly higher than a completely different option then it cannot possibly be competitive for the role!, but I'm not going to keep shouting you down about your opinions not being competitive and I recognise that we two people can disagree on something, so please show me the same courtesy.

 Red Corsair wrote:
As others have pointed out already, an autocanon is much easier to use and works VS everything that fist does and more, it also synergizes with the role of that unit better.

And as I've pointed out, the squad can also have an Autocannon (and it will).

 Red Corsair wrote:
you would still need to convince me why it's better then a flamer on the squad and a combi bolter on sarge which is the exact same price.

I've given my counter to this point and you ignored it, not sure how else to go forward from there. I'm not even remotely concerned if you're convinced or not, your view on the game seems a little too rigid to be flexed into this and I'm totally ok with that. We all play this game in a different way, yours is a little more rigid, mine is a little more fluid. I've received your advice loud and clear! Your logic hasn't convinced me and I disagree with your stance, but thanks for your contribution, let's move forward!


 Red Corsair wrote:
A power fist can be a useful item, but far less useful in the hands of unit A as would be in the hands of unit B. Case and point is the berserker champ, he gets 6 bites at the apple and +2 to his strength for that same 9pts.

Berzerkers cannot take Autocannons. Berzerkers are a glass cannon unit that want to be in CC, not sit on an objective. You would be paying so many points to hold ground on a backfield objective. A single powerfist costs 9 points, and helps push off anything that makes it into CC with you and gives you the teeth to win trades vs other min size troops in ob sec battles, or to help push off bulkier things like a vehicle or a Captain, without costing anywhere near enough to drastically change the role of the unit away from firmly holding objectives. Again, I've seen it used to great effect by the best Marine player I know, a guy who manages to travel and compete throughout every edition with Imperial Fists. I've felt it work vs me personally, smashing out Rippers quickly enough to retake the objective by a full turn just by putting a single PF in the squad. Remember you're swinging twice over a battle round before scores come through in ITC. It's often 4 attacks for simply 9 points. Again, I've said if it doesn't work I'll adjust, but as it stands I'm just going to hold it in there, so I think this particular issue of power fists is thoroughly hashed out as much as it can be now.

Once again, we can prove mathematically (which you wanted to ignore) how ignorant that statement is about pushing someone off your objective is.

And yes, everyone is disagreeing with you because you ARE wrong. Go into any Marine variant thread, and everyone will tell you that Power Fists are bad on any 2 attack model, even with melee based armies like Blood Angels and Grey Knights.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 16:40:58


Post by: Abaddon303


Ok I think we're done with this argument let's move on...x


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We have berserkers that out class anything loyalists have. We probably have slightly stronger legion traits, except maybe ultras


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daemon princes really are special for us, it's hard not to spam them.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 17:00:11


Post by: Nature's Minister


Berserkers are tough to get in close. Rhinos aren't tough, really. Bloodletters can deep strike and you can basically guarantee the charge when they come in.

I am currently running four daemon princes


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 19:13:36


Post by: Ghorgul


Nature's Minister wrote:
I am currently running four daemon princes.
How does this work?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/23 19:41:08


Post by: Nature's Minister


The CSM, daemon and cult princes all have different data sheets, so they are different units. I use two daemon princes of tzeentch from the thousand sons codex, and two khorne princes from the daemon codex.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 00:23:26


Post by: Gidun


So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 01:28:33


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 04:24:14


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.


Try Berserkers. If you get the charge off on 30 berzerkers into 120 boyz, I think the 30 berzerkers would clean house, especially if they are world eaters. Thats 240 attacks after attacking twice, and we are not even factoring in death to the false emperor which everyone always forgets about.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 04:25:22


Post by: JNAProductions


DttFE only works against Imperium units.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 04:29:57


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 JNAProductions wrote:
DttFE only works against Imperium units.


opps, my bad. you are right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, you can have world eater be pretty scary in shotting now and yet, fighty too (cos they are world eaters).

Have Kharn run up the board sandwiched between two Kytan Ravagers. And have a third Kytan Ravager by itself whom you spam daemonforge on every turn.

So, thats 24 str 8 shots with reroll to hit every turn on three super heavies which are hard to kill. And when they hit the enemy lines, 3 Kytan ravegers and Kharn are going to pack a heck of a wallop. lol.

Fill up the rest with zerkers in Rhinos. Or throw in more defilers if you want to go for armour overkill.

I am just sad they lowered the points of Kytan but not Lord of skulls.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 05:00:42


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


Am I understanding you correctly by reading it as 5 combi flamers on 5 of the marines (including the champ) an a sixth marine with a regular flamer?

If so, what's the benefit of going for a sixth marine instead of going for a second squad and cramming them into a rhino?

And aren't you going to have a hard time making the charge with the majority of the wounds being caused in shooting phase? I imagine it's hard to line up both the charge and the shot with flamers being 8".

Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:Try Berserkers. If you get the charge off on 30 berzerkers into 120 boyz, I think the 30 berzerkers would clean house, especially if they are world eaters. Thats 240 attacks after attacking twice, and we are not even factoring in death to the false emperor which everyone always forgets about.


I'm leaning towards zerkers since it seems they have a slightly higher wound per point than chosen with combi flamers (and most of their attacks are gonna be - 1AP (for whatever that is worth with orkz invuls and fnp) and done in the same phase, so no screwing yourself over (unless I get counter-attacked).

What's the most efficient way of running them? A pair of five-man squads, with a flag and lightning claws for the champs, that rides in a rhino? The pros being that it's two different charges and 6 more LC attacks and the cons being that it's 18 points more expensive than a 10-man squad with the same loadout.

Or footslogging a 5/10/20 man unit?

Personally I'm leaning towards a rhino with two squads that gets supported by either a jump pack lord or a daemon prince.

To sum it up: what's easier to line up to kill a >50% squad of boyz. Chosen or zerkers?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 05:06:18


Post by: Azuza001


That many ork boys there are a few good ways to handle them. Choosen as mentioned are one (and a good one at that). Cultists with mark of slaanesh can do a number as well as long as they are in a big squad, like 40. Berserkers can wreck face. Flamers of tzeentch can be super useful at weakening a squad up as well. The real question is what do you have at your disposal and what have you been fielding vs the green tide?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 06:39:30


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Gidun wrote:
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


Am I understanding you correctly by reading it as 5 combi flamers on 5 of the marines (including the champ) an a sixth marine with a regular flamer?

If so, what's the benefit of going for a sixth marine instead of going for a second squad and cramming them into a rhino?

And aren't you going to have a hard time making the charge with the majority of the wounds being caused in shooting phase? I imagine it's hard to line up both the charge and the shot with flamers being 8".

Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:Try Berserkers. If you get the charge off on 30 berzerkers into 120 boyz, I think the 30 berzerkers would clean house, especially if they are world eaters. Thats 240 attacks after attacking twice, and we are not even factoring in death to the false emperor which everyone always forgets about.


I'm leaning towards zerkers since it seems they have a slightly higher wound per point than chosen with combi flamers (and most of their attacks are gonna be - 1AP (for whatever that is worth with orkz invuls and fnp) and done in the same phase, so no screwing yourself over (unless I get counter-attacked).

What's the most efficient way of running them? A pair of five-man squads, with a flag and lightning claws for the champs, that rides in a rhino? The pros being that it's two different charges and 6 more LC attacks and the cons being that it's 18 points more expensive than a 10-man squad with the same loadout.

Or footslogging a 5/10/20 man unit?

Personally I'm leaning towards a rhino with two squads that gets supported by either a jump pack lord or a daemon prince.

To sum it up: what's easier to line up to kill a >50% squad of boyz. Chosen or zerkers?

I was talking about a 6 man squad with 5 Combi-Bolters and 1 Flamer. That's about the best you'll get for the price.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 11:18:53


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
Azuza001 wrote:
That many ork boys there are a few good ways to handle them. Choosen as mentioned are one (and a good one at that). Cultists with mark of slaanesh can do a number as well as long as they are in a big squad, like 40. Berserkers can wreck face. Flamers of tzeentch can be super useful at weakening a squad up as well. The real question is what do you have at your disposal and what have you been fielding vs the green tide?


My best options that I have from what I can gather is good choices are zerkers, chosen, cultists and bloodletters (which with I've only managed one proper deepstrike with banner of blood before the ork player in question got savvy and started screening).

My biggest issue is matching him point per point. It just feels like he's got an answer to anything I can throw at him without him having to really having to commit to one idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I was talking about a 6 man squad with 5 Combi-Bolters and 1 FN lamer. That's about the best you'll get for the price.


Just mathed it, the wound per point goes up if you ignore that one flamer and just straight up go for 5 combi bolters. But the remaining issue is that it's still 6.6 wounds per 104 points (and that's rapid fire range and before saves). That means I would have to commit over 700 points of the supposedly best boy killer to reliably get through 29 boyz and a nob with saves and fnp per turn.

Hence why I lean towards zerkers that can at least remove their t-shirt save for the most part.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 11:38:35


Post by: Ap0k


Noise Marines?

They have the threat range advantage over Boyz by a long shot (har har), and their 2 attacks base mean they can at least do something when they receive a charge. They also give you a good target for Cacophony and Agonies, and Blastmasters can be put to use either popping their vehicles or clearing the green tide, depending on what you need. Cover denial is probably situational, given the difficulty your opponent will have finding cover for a 30man blob.

In an EC detachment they'll even fight first, or at the very least, alternate between his multiple charging units and your receivers.

Expensive on the points front, though.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 11:54:06


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Gidun wrote:
Spoiler:
Azuza001 wrote:
That many ork boys there are a few good ways to handle them. Choosen as mentioned are one (and a good one at that). Cultists with mark of slaanesh can do a number as well as long as they are in a big squad, like 40. Berserkers can wreck face. Flamers of tzeentch can be super useful at weakening a squad up as well. The real question is what do you have at your disposal and what have you been fielding vs the green tide?


My best options that I have from what I can gather is good choices are zerkers, chosen, cultists and bloodletters (which with I've only managed one proper deepstrike with banner of blood before the ork player in question got savvy and started screening).

My biggest issue is matching him point per point. It just feels like he's got an answer to anything I can throw at him without him having to really having to commit to one idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I was talking about a 6 man squad with 5 Combi-Bolters and 1 FN lamer. That's about the best you'll get for the price.


Just mathed it, the wound per point goes up if you ignore that one flamer and just straight up go for 5 combi bolters. But the remaining issue is that it's still 6.6 wounds per 104 points (and that's rapid fire range and before saves). That means I would have to commit over 700 points of the supposedly best boy killer to reliably get through 29 boyz and a nob with saves and fnp per turn.

Hence why I lean towards zerkers that can at least remove their t-shirt save for the most part.

Those 6.6 wounds are on 7 point models. That's more than 45 points, which is decent for models that would be 16 points each. Then the Chosen have three attacks each, with the Champ having 4 (or just three if you buy a Power Weapon, which isn't necessary).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 11:59:30


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
 Ap0k wrote:
Noise Marines?

They have the threat range advantage over Boyz by a long shot (har har), and their 2 attacks base mean they can at least do something when they receive a charge. They also give you a good target for Cacophony and Agonies, and Blastmasters can be put to use either popping their vehicles or clearing the green tide, depending on what you need. Cover denial is probably situational, given the difficulty your opponent will have finding cover for a 30man blob.

In an EC detachment they'll even fight first, or at the very least, alternate between his multiple charging units and your receivers.

Expensive on the points front, though.


Yeah they seem to math out about equally to chosen, with the added benefit of ignoring cover, getting to shoot when they are slain and a larger efficient threat range.

But it's still over 600pts in order to reliably kill off a 30 man boy squad. Compared to WE zerkers which lands on about 200pts for the same job. (Discounting potential transport)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those 6.6 wounds are on 7 point models. That's more than 45 points, which is decent for models that would be 16 points each. Then the Chosen have three attacks each, with the Champ having 4 (or just three if you buy a Power Weapon, which isn't necessary).


That's still 7 rounds of shooting after saves to remove a 210pts unit and if you actually do charge in to the 23+ orks still left you're gonna have a bad time. And guess what's coming <50% unit strength?

What I'm really after is a way to quickly remove them from play, and especially to avoid letting them live <50%.

How would you suggest playing with the chosen? Stay in 8" for rapid fire and flamer or trying to pop them from 24" with 10 shots a round? And if wittling them down is the goal, why not use noise marines instead?

Edit: just re-read what I wrote, it sounds a bit snarky which isn't my intention so I apologize for that


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 12:19:34


Post by: Ap0k


The short answer is that there is no efficient way to deal with them in the CSM codex alone. I can't even think of any forgeworld options that might come close. VotLW/Prescience/Cacophony Cultists are one of the most efficient unit/CP/power combinations in the codex, so if they can't do it, nothing will.

You can either ally in Daemons for Plaguebearers (attrition) or Letters (alpha strike), or look at TSons for Tzaangors (less alpha strikey than Letters, but more survivable with psychic backup, and easier on the CP).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 12:27:01


Post by: lindsay40k


Pink Horrors are also an option. A horde of them and a herald, a Bloodletter bomb and a herald, and some brimstones or Nurglings to fill out the Battalion, can do some work.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 12:28:35


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
 Ap0k wrote:
The short answer is that there is no efficient way to deal with them in the CSM codex alone. I can't even think of any forgeworld options that might come close. VotLW/Prescience/Cacophony Cultists are one of the most efficient unit/CP/power combinations in the codex, so if they can't do it, nothing will.

You can either ally in Daemons for Plaguebearers (attrition) or Letters (alpha strike), or look at TSons for Tzaangors (less alpha strikey than Letters, but more survivable with psychic backup, and easier on the CP).


That's the unfortunate truth I was hoping to learn that it wasn't the case. I guess it's up between zerkers and cultists after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lindsay40k wrote:
Pink Horrors are also an option. A horde of them and a herald, a Bloodletter bomb and a herald, and some brimstones or Nurglings to fill out the Battalion, can do some work.


I think I've glossed over pink horrors entirely, what do they bring to the table?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 12:50:32


Post by: Ap0k


You could look at a Quad Heavy Bolter/Missile Fire Raptor maybe?

Won't be points efficient from a damage dealt perspective, but they can't easily chop it to death, and it should still kill a swathe of them each turn.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 13:27:49


Post by: Nature's Minister


30 horrors is 90 18" shots for 210 points. Strength 5 with Herald, and if you toss in a daemonspark tzeentch daemon prince, you reroll ones to hit and wound. Throw in some flamers of tzeentch.

Here, do this:
Spoiler:

Tzeentch batt

Daemon Prince
Herald

25 horrors
25 horrors
10 brim

Khorne batt
Daemon Prince, skullreaver
Herald

30 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters

Renegade knight dominus valiant


You even have points left over for another daemon prince or more letters or whatever you want. You could also swap out the dominus for a styrix and save a further 100 points or so. The twin rad cleanser isn't as good as the big flamer but it is still really good, and it has the volkite to pop transports.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 14:09:57


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
Nature's Minister wrote:
30 horrors is 90 18" shots for 210 points. Strength 5 with Herald, and if you toss in a daemonspark tzeentch daemon prince, you reroll ones to hit and wound. Throw in some flamers of tzeentch.

Here, do this:
[spoiler]
Tzeentch batt

Daemon Prince
Herald

25 horrors
25 horrors
10 brim

Khorne batt
Daemon Prince, skullreaver
Herald

30 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters

Renegade knight dominus valiant

You even have points left over for another daemon prince or more letters or whatever you want.


Thanks I'll check it out. Is there any cheap way to get horrors in a box or is troop boxes the way to go?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 14:18:14


Post by: Nature's Minister


EBay, I guess. They aren't too awesome except in specific scenarios, so you should find plenty.

I usually just throw waves of tzaangors and bloodletters and daemon princes at my problems.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 15:02:17


Post by: McGibs


I've been pretty happy with my Quad H-Bolter Rapier battery for clearing hordes.
36 str5 -1ap shots, and then throw in a foot Lord and Prescience for optimal accuracy. They're also have great range (Still 48" for some reason!) and are easy to screen with other units, increasing the chances of followup shots.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 16:22:09


Post by: ZergSmasher


The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 19:33:51


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).


Yeah that can be pretty rough, but the more different units that I can engage with several squads, the more I can mitigate the effectiveness of a counterattack.

I've checked out the Quad heavy bolter as per Ap0ks and McGibs' suggestions and the horrors route as per lindsay40ks and Nature's Ministers suggestion and I must say that both seem very compelling. With a slight edge towards the QHB due to it fitting into a csm detatchment and being far less to paint.

Thanks everyone for the input so far, it has opened up my eyes to some new options that I hadn't considered.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 20:22:37


Post by: Nature's Minister


The knight valiant is also really effective anti horde. 3d6 autohits hurt in overwatch, 12 attacks with titanic feet, can fall back and shoot, is pretty survivable. And only one model.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 20:34:27


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
Nature's Minister wrote:
The knight valiant is also really effective anti horde. 3d6 autohits hurt in overwatch, 12 attacks with titanic feet, can fall back and shoot, is pretty survivable. And only one model.


I tried looking for it but with no luck, is it the same kit as the imperial version?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 20:38:34


Post by: Nature's Minister


Yes. Just glue some skulls to it


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 20:40:23


Post by: JNAProductions


It's the Knight Valiant kit. It has its own box.

There's no Renegade specific version-just add skulls as NM said.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 20:42:43


Post by: Nature's Minister


Honestly, I would just paint it regular knight colors. Hawkshroud, maybe. That way you can run a regular knights list with it if you get bored with chaos


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/25 21:58:54


Post by: Gidun


"bored with chaos", oh no. I'll just keep going deeper into our heretical rabbit hole.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 02:09:41


Post by: Azuza001


How could anyone get board with chaos? We are the number one army for kit bashing and customization! Granted we are not as beautiful as we were with codex 3.5 but still........

I miss 3.5........


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 03:36:35


Post by: Nature's Minister


Sometimes it's nice to change it up a bit. I went from pure shooting to a list with minimum, unbuffed cultists for shooting and I'm having a blast. I could see someone who plays hordes going the knight route


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 04:11:05


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).


Yeah, I experience being interrupt before. But if you get multiple charges off, it will get very expensive quickly in terms of cp for him to keep on trying to interrupt.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 06:00:11


Post by: Red Corsair


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 11:14:50


Post by: lindsay40k


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).


Yeah, I experience being interrupt before. But if you get multiple charges off, it will get very expensive quickly in terms of cp for him to keep on trying to interrupt.


Don’t forget each Stratagem can only be used once in the same phase. If it’s a single unit vs unit fight, then yeah, it’s going to be a problem. If there’s a massive pagga with three units a side brawling, then only one of them is going to be allowed to interrupt


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 14:05:08


Post by: Red Corsair


 lindsay40k wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).


Yeah, I experience being interrupt before. But if you get multiple charges off, it will get very expensive quickly in terms of cp for him to keep on trying to interrupt.


Don’t forget each Stratagem can only be used once in the same phase. If it’s a single unit vs unit fight, then yeah, it’s going to be a problem. If there’s a massive pagga with three units a side brawling, then only one of them is going to be allowed to interrupt


Sure but you get the most mileage out of the counter offensive strat on large units, which is precisely how ork mobs roll. On the other hand, the best way to run KB is in 5 man teams since you get a free champion every 5 guys that can carry a weapon and so you can hit as many targets as possible when they get in. I would say the best middle ground is yet again to charge in a rhino. Not only will it soak over watch, but if placed correctly (center mass) on a mob of boys, even if they counter offensive a huge portion will have to hit the rhino since you pile into the closest target. It definitely doesn't solve the issue but it's something. Alternatively you can use a termite, which I like more and more to transport KB.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 15:30:09


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 16:41:42


Post by: drakerocket


How are you getting 36 shots out of a rapier battery? I thought they were only one bolter per battery? Are you using three heavy support slots to take three groups?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 17:21:27


Post by: EverlastingNewb


I'm participating with my EC / Slaanesh Daemons 'Dino bot assault' list in a GW sponsored Tournament in January. And while i already have a 'punny' name for my list which actually fits, i've got a weird issue. I play Sonic Dreadnoughts which are - as stated in the FW Errata - just Helbrutes with 2 more Weapon options. The Tournament itself uses only Codex units (no index for some reason), all FAQ's & Erratas and no Forgeworld. And this is my problem and question i guess; Could i make the case that the Sonic Dreadnought is in fact not Forgeworld nor an Index model (the Errata states to use the Index Helbrute version even though its identical with the Codex Helbrute)?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 17:33:13


Post by: Azuza001


Thats a question for your tournament organizer, but my gut reaction is no.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/26 19:09:44


Post by: akaean


 EverlastingNewb wrote:
The Tournament itself uses only Codex units (no index for some reason), all FAQ's & Erratas and no Forgeworld. And this is my problem and question i guess; Could i make the case that the Sonic Dreadnought is in fact not Forgeworld nor an Index model (the Errata states to use the Index Helbrute version even though its identical with the Codex Helbrute)?


Well no index units for chaos isn't really a big limitation. The main things we lose are access to Bike and Daemonic Mount Lords. That restriction is mostly in place to curb some of the Eldar cheese choices like the Autarchs with Reaper Launchers and Mark of the Incomparable Hunter. Now that the Ork Codex is out, most armies don't need the index to function (except for poor GSC for now).

Anyway, to answer your question, I think you *should* lose the argument that a Sonic Dreadnought is not Forgeworld. Remember, the Sonic Weapons are not an available choice according to the wargear on the Helbrute. In fact, the wargear choices you are looking at come from an Imperial Armor FAQ/Errata. Since the Imperial Armor Book is not allowed, I would argue that the reasonable conclusion is the imperial Armor FAQ is not in play either. Ultimately it is up to the tournament organizer though, and it never hurts to ask.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 02:17:27


Post by: Formosa


drakerocket wrote:
How are you getting 36 shots out of a rapier battery? I thought they were only one bolter per battery? Are you using three heavy support slots to take three groups?



I only noticed this the other day but the chaos ones... 1-3, imperial ones a 1 per slot!!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 02:22:53


Post by: Red Corsair


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.


Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 03:11:21


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.


Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.

I mean that kinda logic won't stop people from taking Combi-Grav on their Tactical Sergeants. Ya know, if you're into that sorta thing.

Main point is that it's been a standard piece of equipment for Chosen and the entry got rectified, just like with Company Vets.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 04:15:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 JNAProductions wrote:
It's the Knight Valiant kit. It has its own box.

There's no Renegade specific version-just add skulls as NM said.


Or as an alternative, consider the renegade knight with twin avenger cannons. That's 24 str 6 shots plus two heavy flamers. Its probably just as good an infantry clearer as the Valiant. Plus, you only pay 1 cp to raise ion shields for the renegade knight whiel you pay 3cp to raise ion shields for a valiant. And both are 5++ since renegade knights and dominus don't get traits or fancy relics.

Also, a twin avenger cannon renegade knight is considerably cheaper than a Valiant.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 04:39:07


Post by: Darksteve


 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.


Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.


I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 04:59:55


Post by: Raichase


Darksteve wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.


I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.


So much this. Heck, this edition started off by making my Codex Legal (not FAQ legal or anything else) Chaos Space Marine squads invalid. We went from being able to have Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword to being forced to choose between Bolter OR Chainsword. So why even glue models together at all? I went through and replaced that unit with more Cultists, and have since been modelling up anyone with a Bolter armed only with the Bolter to make them compliant for this edition. For all we know, next edition might alter the Berzerkers to be armed with Chainsword OR Chainaxe but not both. Didn't stop me from ripping the Bolt Pistol arms off and replacing them with Chainsword arms because that's how I want to equip them.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 05:12:34


Post by: First Among Gators


Yeah, that's definitely part of the hobby. Not sure how you can kick up a big fuss and declare others to be not playing the game competitively simply because you disagree with a 9 pt upgrade on their load out, but then turn around and say that you refuse certain competitive loadouts because you're scared they might change. That's part of competitive play, the game changes every update, roll with it.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 06:04:40


Post by: Red Corsair


 First Among Gators wrote:
Yeah, that's definitely part of the hobby. Not sure how you can kick up a big fuss and declare others to be not playing the game competitively simply because you disagree with a 9 pt upgrade on their load out, but then turn around and say that you refuse certain competitive loadouts because you're scared they might change. That's part of competitive play, the game changes every update, roll with it.


It's fun building straw men I guess eh?

First of all your assuming I agree that combi bolter chosen are competitive. I don't. Hence my already stated preference toward quad HB rapiers.

Second of all, there are miles between a power fist being bad tactically yet available in the CSM kit and a load out on chosen that literally doesn't exist in the book proper but dangles on a FAQ. Especially when we all are aware that GW hates weapon options that don't exist in kits and that particular chosen load out is certainly not in existence anywhere in the model line.

You seem hung up on that power fist discussion mate, however I left the door open before and I will again now. Convince me using evidence and hard data on why I should run power fists on my 5 man CSM squad over before any other option. I am willing to change my mind but you have to do better then "my gut tells me X" like you were before.

Misrepresenting my positions is a weak start though.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 06:17:10


Post by: First Among Gators


I'm not hung up on anything mate, perhaps as you might recall, I'm the one who begged you multiple times to just stop fixatin on such a minor thing after it had been quite clearly hashed out many times over. The point of my post here is to point out the hypocrisy of those claims in light of your new position here. You have no business telling anyone they aren't a competitive player over 9 points, when you won't build any load out that you claim might be likely to change (this is what you said and what I responded to, not that you thought the load out was non competitive). The most likely stuff at any given time to be changed is the most competitive stuff. Roll with it, it's a part of competitive 40k.

>I am willing to change my mind but you have to do better then "my gut tells me X" like you were before.

I cannot be held responsible for your confoundingly poor comprehension.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 06:18:48


Post by: Azuza001


Gws stance on rules for models when the models dont exsist is flakey at best. They say they dont put rules out unless there is a model for it, not a kitbash but an actual model. There are a few obvious issues with this where they contradict their own rule. Few examples i can point to off the top of my head...

1. The grand master in nemisis dreadnought armor - white dwarf had to show how to kitbash to make one after the codex came out.
2. Chaos lord on bike - gw did make a model that fits this yet its only doable as an index or as a stand in... how else am i going to use my awsome Doomrider 3rd edition model?


Having said all that i agree with red corsair on this. Combi bolter choosen are not that competitive. Thats not a bad thing per se, but again this is a tactics thread aimed at getting the most out of stuff. Weight of fire is huge this edition, and doubling your marines output of firepower looks terrific on paper but has some flaws that is hard to get around unless you go forgeworld. If you did go forgeworld there are better things to transport than choosen with storm bolters.

So the real question here is are we talking about if choosen with combi bolters are any good competitively or are we talking about how to get the most out of giving choosen combi bolters? 2 different conversations......


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 06:19:20


Post by: Red Corsair


Darksteve wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.


Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.


I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.


Sorry, you must not have played as long as I have. After playing since 2nd edition, you know when a load out is based on gaming a ruling and what will last. Pretty much any loadout besides that one is fine lol. There literally isn't a combi bolter bit for a standard marine in existence. Thats a bad sign, epsecially under new GW's no model no rule policy. I have been burned too many times especially in 8th. I have 5 painstakingly converted jugger lords sitting on my shelf. Between the lack of codex support and rule of 3 they are just pretty models. BTW, thats my own policy though and has nothing to do with tactics. I happen to think combi bolter chosen aren't really very good to begin with so there is definitely no reason for me to justify making some. I think even noise marines are better. More range and I get to fire even when killed, more then makes up for the 2 pt differential.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 First Among Gators wrote:
I'm not hung up on anything mate, perhaps as you might recall, I'm the one who begged you multiple times to just stop fixatin on such a minor thing after it had been quite clearly hashed out many times over. The point of my post here is to point out the hypocrisy of those claims in light of your new position here. You have no business telling anyone they aren't a competitive player over 9 points, when you won't build any load out that you claim might be likely to change (this is what you said and what I responded to, not that you thought the load out was non competitive). The most likely stuff at any given time to be changed is the most competitive stuff. Roll with it, it's a part of competitive 40k.

>I am willing to change my mind but you have to do better then "my gut tells me X" like you were before.

I cannot be held responsible for your confoundingly poor comprehension.


You failed again then. That's not hypocrisy at all. How is me thinking combi bolter chosen are not efficient VS ork boys AND my weariness about the conversion at all similar to my earlier point to you that a power fist is not tactically sound on a min CSM unit meant to sit on back field objectives. BTW it's disingenuous of you to act as though I was the one unwilling to change my position or move on when I recall you were pushing back against most of the people in this thread. Which is fine by me BTW, just don't act as though your a victim.

The fact that you remark and critique my comprehension when you continually misrepresent other posters comments is what I actually find concerning. Stop that.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 14:33:38


Post by: Darksteve


 Red Corsair wrote:
Darksteve wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Gidun wrote:
So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.

Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.

There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).


I'd go with quad heavy bolters. They are insanely efficient for their price and stupidly simple to use. They work even better with abadon. I still am weary on chosen with that loadout. It relies on a faq to even work.

And there's a problem with an FAQ? It's official. Go nuts with it.


Sure there is, GW created it. So it will vanish as fast as it appeared. I model my armies to way to high a standard to play that game personally.


I mean by that logic how do you model anything? GW created the codexes so it will vanish as fast as it appeared, or all the models, or the franchise itself for that matter. If you don't play some form of "that game" then you probably aren't looking to play this game.


Sorry, you must not have played as long as I have. After playing since 2nd edition, you know when a load out is based on gaming a ruling and what will last. Pretty much any loadout besides that one is fine lol. There literally isn't a combi bolter bit for a standard marine in existence. Thats a bad sign, epsecially under new GW's no model no rule policy. I have been burned too many times especially in 8th. I have 5 painstakingly converted jugger lords sitting on my shelf. Between the lack of codex support and rule of 3 they are just pretty models. BTW, thats my own policy though and has nothing to do with tactics. I happen to think combi bolter chosen aren't really very good to begin with so there is definitely no reason for me to justify making some. I think even noise marines are better. More range and I get to fire even when killed, more then makes up for the 2 pt differential.



I definitely haven't played as long as you and if you had said something to the above effect initially I wouldn't have bothered replying. I just dont like the rational "GW created it so its not long for this world" for the reasons above. Personally I also like noise marines better for that role in most cases.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 14:46:53


Post by: akaean


Darksteve wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


Sorry, you must not have played as long as I have. After playing since 2nd edition, you know when a load out is based on gaming a ruling and what will last. Pretty much any loadout besides that one is fine lol. There literally isn't a combi bolter bit for a standard marine in existence. Thats a bad sign, epsecially under new GW's no model no rule policy. I have been burned too many times especially in 8th. I have 5 painstakingly converted jugger lords sitting on my shelf. Between the lack of codex support and rule of 3 they are just pretty models. BTW, thats my own policy though and has nothing to do with tactics. I happen to think combi bolter chosen aren't really very good to begin with so there is definitely no reason for me to justify making some. I think even noise marines are better. More range and I get to fire even when killed, more then makes up for the 2 pt differential.



I definitely haven't played as long as you and if you had said something to the above effect initially I wouldn't have bothered replying. I just dont like the rational "GW created it so its not long for this world" for the reasons above. Personally I also like noise marines better for that role in most cases.


eh. Lets all just calm down and have a nice fun little discussion. I think as others have said in a tactics board, modeling preference actually doesn't really have a place. I understand that from a personal standpoint personal predictions about the shelf life of a particular model are very important, but in this thread we should be judging combi bolter chosen on their own merits as they compare to anything else in a CSM army. So this whole discussion about combi bolter chain sword chosen vanishing at some point is an interesting question but one that isn't particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.

I think towards the end there was some discussion about the relative merits or lack thereof with respect to combi bolter chosen's actual field performance. Which is useful, but the rest of it would be better placed in a general discussion thread talking about the longevity of errata rulings. Or in a painting and modeling forum discussing whether a particular conversion is ultimately worth it in the long run. Before I get back on topic though, one thing to consider is that there are many events where a rapier may be banned. Whether you agree with it or not, there is a *stigma* attached to forgeworld, and I've been seeing an increasing number of tournaments and events with a 'no index' 'no forgeworld' rules set. In this situation, investing heavily into forgeworld as opposed to codex choices could leave you short handed and require you to look other places for tactics. This has no bearing on casual games or events with standard rules not banning forgeworld units. But in my opinion forgeworld is potentially just as risky to invest in, since many events ban them for better or for worse. Foregeworld also isn't great about respecting players. Remember Greater Knarlocs? Hell Sonic Dreads almost didn't even get into the IA index and just skated in through an FAQ. Those were a model FW had sold for years... However you will notice that generally people speak in terms of the merits of Sonic Dreads and not the fact that they are one edit away from not existing anymore. Love me some sonic dreads.

So uh. Combi Bolter Chosen I don't think are great. Especially since they cannot even take a full squad of combi bolters, and they still only have 1 wound. They take an elites slot as opposed to a troops choice... overall I agree that they aren't quite worth what you pay for them. Even now. I would almost rather have generic CSM as they maintain objective secured. If I was going to spend those points on MEQ and didn't play EC... I would rather have 5 regular CSM with a Heavy Bolter and a Combi Bolter Champ. Park them on an objective and take pot shots. Objective secured is a thing afterall.



Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 15:11:45


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Objective Secured is a non-rule for any Elite army. You're already taking Cultists, which means you get a higher performance unit for only 3 point more than the other Troop choice.

I say 3 points as, at minimum, you're taking the Combi-Bolter.

Also you don't need a WHOLE squad of Combi-Bolters. That's a silly complaint. They're strictly a MSU kinda unit and always have been. I don't complain about Obliterators being only in squads of three.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 15:17:35


Post by: First Among Gators


Yeah, Forgeworld models are basically as risky as you can buy. Completely random with rules, releases and balance.

Just worth pointing out, the Champion can take a combi bolter so you can have 5/5

The main real advantage I think Bolter Chosen have over Noise Marines is the ability to take multiple CC weapons like Chainaxes standard or multiple power fists. If you aren't doing that then just take Noise Marines, I think Noise Marines are very good


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 15:42:24


Post by: Darksteve


In the world of combi-bolters I've been looking to try out double fisted helbrutes again with a combi-bolter on each fist. If you make them alpha legion and either slannash for fnp or nurgle for another -1 to hit they seem pretty nifty threats to throw upfield


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 15:54:16


Post by: Red Corsair


Funny how I add the modeling perspective on as the final nail for me personally after already addressing that I don't think it's the right answer to greentide *cough* quad heavy bolters *cough* but some people focus on that rather then the cake of the argument.

I'll cover my take on modelling once and for all since it's been twisted by First Among Gators more then once and I want it to be clear.

If you like or dislike a model then that is a fine justification for it's inclusion but you should state that. The entire game is based on collecting and painting your own models, or course you should use or not use based on taste. What he did before was try to convince the thread that an inefficient load out was worth taking because he had a "gut feeling" it would be useful. I even told him if it was a modeling thing to just say it and folks would ignore it, that's not the route he chose though. Instead he tried convincing folks it was a sound tactic and wouldn't back it up with any maths or experience. I actually enjoy trying to make cool looking and under used things work, but I will never argue that it's a good competitive option and then never cite evidence.

As I said already in regard to combi bolter chosen, they are like 6th or 7th down a list of options I know are more efficient to handle horde. My go to are quad HB rapiers, after that I'd rather take in no particular order Noise marines, oblits, cultists, khorne berserkers, spawn and/or tie the units down with my defilers or maulers or a termite.

The combi chosen are neat in theory but they need to be in rapid fire and charge distance to perform best, and at 17ppm I'd always rather take K berserkers if I already figured out how to get in combat safely.

Heres the math on wounds delt to orks per point btw.

Quad HB rapier (76) is 14.1 point per wound delt verse ork tide all the way out to 48".

5 Combi bolter chosen (85) is 15.1 point per wound verse green tide at 12"

Now that still seems close and I would never fault someone for wanting to take them however the HB rapiers also come with a pair of CSM I didn't bother with due to range bands but it does give the platform more wounds and you also need to consider that massive range advantage. It just ends up making it an easy choice. I have had at least a pair of these in every competitive chaos list for over a year now. They are great verse any target and due to the wording on the crew they make perfect backfield objective sitters.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Objective Secured is a non-rule for any Elite army. You're already taking Cultists, which means you get a higher performance unit for only 3 point more than the other Troop choice.

I say 3 points as, at minimum, you're taking the Combi-Bolter.

Also you don't need a WHOLE squad of Combi-Bolters. That's a silly complaint. They're strictly a MSU kinda unit and always have been. I don't complain about Obliterators being only in squads of three.


Correct me if I am wrong but I thought combi bolters were 2ppm, which makes combi chosen 17ppm.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 16:46:05


Post by: First Among Gators


 Red Corsair wrote:


If you like or dislike a model then that is a fine justification for it's inclusion but you should state that. The entire game is based on collecting and painting your own models, or course you should use or not use based on taste. What he did before was try to convince the thread that an inefficient load out was worth taking because he had a "gut feeling" it would be useful. I even told him if it was a modeling thing to just say it and folks would ignore it, that's not the route he chose though. Instead he tried convincing folks it was a sound tactic and wouldn't back it up with any maths or experience. I actually enjoy trying to make cool looking and under used things work, but I will never argue that it's a good competitive option and then never cite evidence.


How are you still stuck on this? Why are you still trying to argue about Power Fists being a good or bad choice? we get it, you don't think they are, but no matter how you feel about it, I gave a bunch of reasoning for why I wanted to take them and literally none of it was model related - I don't even like the model, I personally think the giant foam hands are one of the silliest aesthetics 40k has. I posted a list looking for advice, some advice I received I said yep, that sounds good I'm going to do it your way, others I decided nah, I don't agree with that so I'm going to stick with it. At no point did I try to convince you of anything, I simply defended my own decision and said you're free to do as you please, in fact I even said we probably have different playstyles so it might not be right for you, but it is for me. How do you lack the self awareness here to see that you're the one went out of your way to convince me of something, and have not dealt at all well with the fact that I didn't bow down to you trying to shout me down with logic I wasn't convinced by, and have gone out of your way to completely twist my argument. When did I say anything about gut feelings or an attachment to the model? You are just spouting out whatever sounds best

Nobody misrepresented your statement, multiple people responded to exactly what your post said about not building models due to fear of change, I was not even close to the only or first person to read it that way or at all responsible for anything to do with how your post was responded to there. Drop the paranoid delusions please. It was only after that statement that you went back and clarified what you intended to say, and without it your post was (and still kinda is) beyond hypocritical for someone who throws around accusations of "non-competitiveness" and "modelling related choice" as quickly as you do, simply because someone has a differing opinion to you.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 17:21:36


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Red Corsair wrote:
Funny how I add the modeling perspective on as the final nail for me personally after already addressing that I don't think it's the right answer to greentide *cough* quad heavy bolters *cough* but some people focus on that rather then the cake of the argument.

I'll cover my take on modelling once and for all since it's been twisted by First Among Gators more then once and I want it to be clear.

If you like or dislike a model then that is a fine justification for it's inclusion but you should state that. The entire game is based on collecting and painting your own models, or course you should use or not use based on taste. What he did before was try to convince the thread that an inefficient load out was worth taking because he had a "gut feeling" it would be useful. I even told him if it was a modeling thing to just say it and folks would ignore it, that's not the route he chose though. Instead he tried convincing folks it was a sound tactic and wouldn't back it up with any maths or experience. I actually enjoy trying to make cool looking and under used things work, but I will never argue that it's a good competitive option and then never cite evidence.

As I said already in regard to combi bolter chosen, they are like 6th or 7th down a list of options I know are more efficient to handle horde. My go to are quad HB rapiers, after that I'd rather take in no particular order Noise marines, oblits, cultists, khorne berserkers, spawn and/or tie the units down with my defilers or maulers or a termite.

The combi chosen are neat in theory but they need to be in rapid fire and charge distance to perform best, and at 17ppm I'd always rather take K berserkers if I already figured out how to get in combat safely.

Heres the math on wounds delt to orks per point btw.

Quad HB rapier (76) is 14.1 point per wound delt verse ork tide all the way out to 48".

5 Combi bolter chosen (85) is 15.1 point per wound verse green tide at 12"

Now that still seems close and I would never fault someone for wanting to take them however the HB rapiers also come with a pair of CSM I didn't bother with due to range bands but it does give the platform more wounds and you also need to consider that massive range advantage. It just ends up making it an easy choice. I have had at least a pair of these in every competitive chaos list for over a year now. They are great verse any target and due to the wording on the crew they make perfect backfield objective sitters.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Objective Secured is a non-rule for any Elite army. You're already taking Cultists, which means you get a higher performance unit for only 3 point more than the other Troop choice.

I say 3 points as, at minimum, you're taking the Combi-Bolter.

Also you don't need a WHOLE squad of Combi-Bolters. That's a silly complaint. They're strictly a MSU kinda unit and always have been. I don't complain about Obliterators being only in squads of three.


Correct me if I am wrong but I thought combi bolters were 2ppm, which makes combi chosen 17ppm.

Chosen are 14 points now I'm pretty sure.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 17:33:59


Post by: First Among Gators


yeah 16 ppm for combi bolter chosen, he may have been factoring in a chain axe though which would make them 17, I dunno. I agree that they are quite good dakka math wise, though their melee is definitely what gives them any sort of edge on alternatives, I think they should at least have chainaxes, possibly more.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 17:43:04


Post by: Azuza001


Yep, 14 pts plus 2 for the combi bolter makes 16 pts vs 13 pts for chaos marines, so 3 pt difference.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 18:44:03


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 First Among Gators wrote:
yeah 16 ppm for combi bolter chosen, he may have been factoring in a chain axe though which would make them 17, I dunno. I agree that they are quite good dakka math wise, though their melee is definitely what gives them any sort of edge on alternatives, I think they should at least have chainaxes, possibly more.

For a unit like Berserker Marines where everyone attacks twice, sure the Chainaxe is worth it. For a two attack model? I'm iffy as, while it IS only one point, weight of attacks does help a bunch vs anything T3 (which would be the optimized target anyway). Against Infantry, Chainswords are almost one dead Guardsman each for each Chosen, whereas Chainaxes kill only .75.

It would depend mathematically how the Chainaxe handles other targets I guess, but since I'm at work I can't find out now.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 20:57:18


Post by: NoiseyBoyo


Okay, so I played a 1750 point game EC VS Imperial guard (5 leman Russ tanks and guardsman spam.)

I brought a winged DP, sorcerer, and 3 min-size squads of Noise Marines (fully kitted out), 3 Sonic Dreadnoughts (ML, blastmasters, doom sirens. One had a power scourge).

And I also brought a separate EC spearhead detachment with a warpsmith, defiler, 2 forgefiends and a heldrake.

I tied up a tank with my heldrake turn 1 and then 2 tanks the next turn. I deleted 30 guardsmen with my fire frenzy helbrutes and blastmasters on my first turn and got a leman Russ down to 1 wound with my daemonforged Forgefiend and friends. My opponent failed to kill anything his first turn and it went downhill from there. I didn't even use VoTLW or Endless Cocaphony and still gave him a sound thrashing.

The point drops are very welcome!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/27 21:33:39


Post by: akaean


NoiseyBoyo wrote: I deleted 30 guardsmen with my fire frenzy helbrutes and blastmasters on my first turn


Make sure you are only playing a strategem once per phase. In any shooting phase you can only use the fire frenzy strategem once. So at most, a single helbrute can use fire frenzy. Same with the daemonengines and daemon forged. It sounds like from your description you were using fire frenzy with all of your brutes. which would be illegal.

Also it sounds like you played your Helturkey wrong. The Flying rule gives him permission to shoot after falling back, but it does not give him permission to charge a new target after falling back. So unless he charged your Heldrake with a second Russ, you would not be able to leave combat and recharge to tie up two models. Unless your Heldrake killed the Leman Russ on your opponents turn and was able to charge something else, but with his less than stellar accuracy and low damage on his claws I doubt he could do enough damage.

i always like to hear about EC doing well. But make sure you played the rules right!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 01:45:44


Post by: Azuza001


The ig player could have backed out with the first russ fighting the hellturkey, i know i would have done that if my russ was fighting a helldrake, thats a no win fight, better to try and do dmg on overwatch than 3 attacks hitting on 6's.

Slaanesh is really coming into its own at this point, i love it.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 02:21:28


Post by: Eldenfirefly


hmmm, I was planning to run triple hellbrutes. Two shooty and one with a mixed load out, reaper autocannon and a hellbrute fist. Just to give this firebase some melee deffense. Then I realised that a doublefist hellbrute is just 100 points now...

Is 100 points cheap enough to have a double fist hellbrute charging forward? A world eaters hellbrute double fist will do 6 attacks with each attack dealing 3 damage! Its rather tasty!

I am suddenly wondering about the effectiveness of a monster mash army of daemon engines and hellbrutes charging down my opponent's front lines... hehe.

Juat to add to this. For 4 more points, such a hellbrute can add on two more combi bolters 8 shots of str 4 at 12 inches. Its not bad for chaff clearing for just 4 points too.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 03:56:23


Post by: Darksteve


Eldenfirefly wrote:
hmmm, I was planning to run triple hellbrutes. Two shooty and one with a mixed load out, reaper autocannon and a hellbrute fist. Just to give this firebase some melee deffense. Then I realised that a doublefist hellbrute is just 100 points now...

Is 100 points cheap enough to have a double fist hellbrute charging forward? A world eaters hellbrute double fist will do 6 attacks with each attack dealing 3 damage! Its rather tasty!

I am suddenly wondering about the effectiveness of a monster mash army of daemon engines and hellbrutes charging down my opponent's front lines... hehe.

Juat to add to this. For 4 more points, such a hellbrute can add on two more combi bolters 8 shots of str 4 at 12 inches. Its not bad for chaff clearing for just 4 points too.


I was thinking the same thing except with AL for the -1 to be hit. With combi-bolters and fire frenzy to clear chaff you might get into something juicy with the 5 damage 3 attacks. Ive been toying running one as slannash for the fnp spell and one nurgle for the miasma spell


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 05:07:11


Post by: Formosa


I was just toying with a list, we have a restriction of no more than two of the same data sheet so this looks odd but bare with me.


Alpha legion
Sorcerer on steed of slaanesh, warptime, death hex
Warpsmith (cheapest character we have)

3x 10 cultists

Hellbrute x 2 fist
Hellbrute x 2 fist
Ferrum infernum dread x2 fist
Ferrum infernum dread x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist.

1001pts

I’m deciding between chaos or dark angels at a doubles tourney, TO has said that up to 5pts over is ok.... which is odd as why not make it 1005pts but nevermind eh


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 05:47:29


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Helbrutes just don't have enough speed to me, even if you're doing the Renegades route. I wouldn't even use Black Templars Dreads for melee, and they naturally reroll charges!


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 07:54:11


Post by: saint_red


Only looking at shooting when comparing QHB and Chosen is stupid. QHB are a stationary long range fire support unit while Chosen are a mobile medium/close range unit.

QHB v Chosen (rapid fire) shooting is almost identical. QHB = 14.25 points / wound while Chosen = 14.4 points / wound. HOWEVER - Chosen also have 3 close combat attacks when taken with chainswords (which are better than chainaxes due to their versatility). If you assume that your Chosen can rapid fire and then charge and get off their attacks, they are looking at 6.17 points / wound (killing 12.9629 Ork Boyz).

There are many more things you need to factor into the analysis too. Factors such as QHB being FW, Heavy v Elite slots, range of respective weapons, how to get your Chosen within 12", legion traits (hello -1 to hit), psychic buffs and stratagems (VotLW / EC only working for Chosen for example).

Finally, there is no reason why someone couldn't take both. If you're getting 120 Ork Boyz dropped on you then it makes good sense to have both long range and close range units to help deal with the threat.

Pre-CA I had used a 10 man unit of Chosen w chainswords and 5 combi-bolters to good effect and with the price drop they'll be even better now.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 10:45:39


Post by: First Among Gators


saint_red wrote:
Only looking at shooting when comparing QHB and Chosen is stupid. QHB are a stationary long range fire support unit while Chosen are a mobile medium/close range unit.

QHB v Chosen (rapid fire) shooting is almost identical. QHB = 14.25 points / wound while Chosen = 14.4 points / wound. HOWEVER - Chosen also have 3 close combat attacks when taken with chainswords (which are better than chainaxes due to their versatility). If you assume that your Chosen can rapid fire and then charge and get off their attacks, they are looking at 6.17 points / wound (killing 12.9629 Ork Boyz).

There are many more things you need to factor into the analysis too. Factors such as QHB being FW, Heavy v Elite slots, range of respective weapons, how to get your Chosen within 12", legion traits (hello -1 to hit), psychic buffs and stratagems (VotLW / EC only working for Chosen for example).

Finally, there is no reason why someone couldn't take both. If you're getting 120 Ork Boyz dropped on you then it makes good sense to have both long range and close range units to help deal with the threat.

Pre-CA I had used a 10 man unit of Chosen w chainswords and 5 combi-bolters to good effect and with the price drop they'll be even better now.


thank you, that's a great post.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 10:48:43


Post by: BlaxicanX


Am I missing something, or does an Emperor's Children dreadnought with missile launcher and 2xBlastmasters only cost 124 points?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 10:50:06


Post by: Gidun


Spoiler:
saint_red wrote:
Only looking at shooting when comparing QHB and Chosen is stupid. QHB are a stationary long range fire support unit while Chosen are a mobile medium/close range unit.

QHB v Chosen (rapid fire) shooting is almost identical. QHB = 14.25 points / wound while Chosen = 14.4 points / wound. HOWEVER - Chosen also have 3 close combat attacks when taken with chainswords (which are better than chainaxes due to their versatility). If you assume that your Chosen can rapid fire and then charge and get off their attacks, they are looking at 6.17 points / wound (killing 12.9629 Ork Boyz).

There are many more things you need to factor into the analysis too. Factors such as QHB being FW, Heavy v Elite slots, range of respective weapons, how to get your Chosen within 12", legion traits (hello -1 to hit), psychic buffs and stratagems (VotLW / EC only working for Chosen for example).

Finally, there is no reason why someone couldn't take both. If you're getting 120 Ork Boyz dropped on you then it makes good sense to have both long range and close range units to help deal with the threat.

Pre-CA I had used a 10 man unit of Chosen w chainswords and 5 combi-bolters to good effect and with the price drop they'll be even better now.


You're absolutely not wrong about this. After boyz saves (assuming invul and fnp) It's something to the effect of 20 points/unsaved wound versus 18 points/unsaved wounds for chosen (including a rhino).

However, my point of view in this case is that if you're actually going to use chosen to their fullest in killing boyz and both charge and shoot then you might aswell stuff that rhino with zerkers (LC on champ), which comes up to something like 23 points/unsaved wounds with only their first turn of fighting. Depending on whetever you get counterattacked etc you're going to bring that ppw down to 11,5. Which is a huge improvement over chosen. And considering that they roughly occupy the same dangerzones when playing then that's my prefered choice between mid/close range.

The difference skews to the QHBs when you're shooting at boyz without invuls.

To sum my thoughts up. You absolutely can use chosen as a shock troop, but I'd rather use them as specialists hunting something else.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 17:34:44


Post by: weaver9


Bit of a topic pivot-- but how do people feel about allies and fire support for melee core?

I'm considering a Macharius Vulcan (R&H) to ally with my World Eaters. (60" 30, S6 -2 D2).

Or Alpha Legion Leviathans (2 or 3?).

On the flip side also curious about mixing in bloodletters, or even skarbrand from a daemons standpoint. Any experiences?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 18:21:43


Post by: Ap0k


Despite the amount of shots it puts out, the Vulcan isn't as point efficient as Leviathans/Deredeos with Butcher Arrays from a damage perspective.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 18:59:52


Post by: Zid


 Ap0k wrote:
Despite the amount of shots it puts out, the Vulcan isn't as point efficient as Leviathans/Deredeos with Butcher Arrays from a damage perspective.


Levis and Deredeos pump out a stupid amount of damage, especially when there are multiple.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 19:54:03


Post by: Azuza001


A deamon patrol detachment of 30 bloodletters with a herald is a great investment and is THE shock troop choice. It is cp heavy (2cp to deepstrike the bloodletters, 1 to upgrade their standard for 3d6 charge, and 1 to deepstrike the herald) but it will delete anything you want dead. I normally focus on using my chaos marine force to kill the bubblewrap so the deamons can wreck face.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/28 23:49:16


Post by: NoiseyBoyo


Spoiler:
 akaean wrote:
NoiseyBoyo wrote: I deleted 30 guardsmen with my fire frenzy helbrutes and blastmasters on my first turn


Make sure you are only playing a strategem once per phase. In any shooting phase you can only use the fire frenzy strategem once. So at most, a single helbrute can use fire frenzy. Same with the daemonengines and daemon forged. It sounds like from your description you were using fire frenzy with all of your brutes. which would be illegal.

Also it sounds like you played your Helturkey wrong. The Flying rule gives him permission to shoot after falling back, but it does not give him permission to charge a new target after falling back. So unless he charged your Heldrake with a second Russ, you would not be able to leave combat and recharge to tie up two models. Unless your Heldrake killed the Leman Russ on your opponents turn and was able to charge something else, but with his less than stellar accuracy and low damage on his claws I doubt he could do enough damage.

i always like to hear about EC doing well. But make sure you played the rules right!


Hi, thanks for your input. I could have worded that better, I only used daemonforge and fire frenzy once each. He fell back with his leman Russ so I was able to charge my heldrake next turn, he had expected to destroy it but it survived on 5 wounds. I was able to pile in/consolidate into the second Russ.

As an added note I was able to warptime the defiler up to his gun line, unfortunately it got tarpitted by 20 guardsmen (only killed 2 in the fight phase, despite bringing a power scourge.) but at least he was safe from the battle cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Am I missing something, or does an Emperor's Children dreadnought with missile launcher and 2xBlastmasters only cost 124 points?


By my count 60+20+40=120?(doom siren optional 8pts.)

So actually a bit cheaper. They are possibly the best target for fire frenzy. A bit of a boast, but I managed 22 shots on 4d6 for the blastmaster shots, I had to remind him I used fire frenzy because he thought I was cheating.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/29 23:09:44


Post by: Nature's Minister


I am trying to find a list for the new and improved 6 point daemonettes, but everything seems kind of blah with no strategy beyond throwing bodies at a line


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/29 23:11:32


Post by: Not Online!!!


Nature's Minister wrote:
I am trying to find a list for the new and improved 6 point daemonettes, but everything seems kind of blah with no strategy beyond throwing bodies at a line


"quantity has a quality all of it's own"

Controlling the board is a strategy.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 01:14:31


Post by: lindsay40k


Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:

- grudgingly pay AM Veteran pts and claw it back from efficiently priced other stuff
- replace some with CSM units
- take Daemon Battalion instead
- reduce use of CP


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 01:38:23


Post by: McGibs


I just went from taking 4-5 min units of cultists to taking 3 min units of cultists and filling the rest of the list with walkers and cult marines.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 03:09:00


Post by: Azuza001


I was already taking 40 cultists and deamon battalions so the changes didnt effect me. I am actually working on getting another 40 cultists and filling it out with my 20 chaos marines for a large black legion batallion, a deamon batallion, and a deamon patrol (though i am starting to wonder if the reroll charge is needed for the khorne patrol). 15 cp (2 batallions and abaddon) is more than enough to do whatever i want.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 03:39:56


Post by: Formosa


anyone know where i can find the rules for the sonic dreadnought, cant seem to find them


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 03:40:11


Post by: Raichase


 lindsay40k wrote:
Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:


I'm trying to move my army over to a baseline Battalion of daemons (the end goal being to have one for each god, but we'll see how that goes). Currently looking at Nurgle using 1 Plaguebearers unit and 2 Nurgling units. Then My Word Bearers all slot in to a Spearhead/Vanguard as appropriate. Have yet to try it out though, but I feel as if the Plaguebearers will give me a bit more staying power, the small units of Nurglings are good for camping on objectives and screening, and I still get the firepower from Havocs/Helbrutes.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 04:17:48


Post by: slave.entity


 lindsay40k wrote:
Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:

- grudgingly pay AM Veteran pts and claw it back from efficiently priced other stuff
- replace some with CSM units
- take Daemon Battalion instead
- reduce use of CP


My list has the minimum 3x10 cultists so it went up 30 points there. Then I got 40 points back on butcher cannon arrays and 26 points back on a pair of changecasters.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 04:45:07


Post by: Formosa


Can the cultist problem not just be solved by taking a detachment of traitor guard ?

I know they suck and you don’t get all the chaos traits etc. But they are still a very cheap way to get bodies for those CP


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 05:39:05


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Personally, now that cultists are 50 points a squad, I think its a lot closer to CSM. A base CSM squad is only 65 points and you can take a heavy weapon like a lascannon, missile launcher or a autocannon.

And I feel that 5 CSM are more resilient than 10 cultists (if we are going for minimum squads because of cost). Mass cultists only become much better than CSM if we are taking a squad of 40 cultists and planning to use strategems and stuff on them.

If cost is an issue and we are just taking the minimum to make up for troop choices, I personally think the higher durability of a squad of CSM for 15 points more is worth it. Just one or two mortar shots on a squad of cultists is probably enough to kill it off (with morale), while the same squad of CSM would laugh at a mortar shot. Especially if they are in cover.

So, for cultists, either you build an army around exploiting the power of a squad of 40 cultists, if not, then I think a min squad of CSM is probably just a bit better than squad of 10 cultists. So erm yeah, for cultists, either go big (40 man) or just don't bother.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 10:17:26


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Formosa wrote:
Can the cultist problem not just be solved by taking a detachment of traitor guard ?

I know they suck and you don’t get all the chaos traits etc. But they are still a very cheap way to get bodies for those CP


Yes and no.

They might be cheap but are not cheap enough for their stats.

F.e. Militia or mutants are 4 ppm, but worse in SV, ws and bs , compared to guardsmen.

And this is the crux, yes you can technically swamp the field with renegade guard, but they are not worth it.

The only thing you could do is run 1-2 battalions and get cp.
Point is, can you get enough use out of said cp to compensate for the terrible quality?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 16:58:56


Post by: McGibs


 Formosa wrote:
anyone know where i can find the rules for the sonic dreadnought, cant seem to find them

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_chaos.pdf

Page 3, top paragraph on the right:
Q: There is no datasheet for an Emperor’s Children Sonic
Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model?
A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of Index:
Chaos. It must replace its <Mark of Chaos> keyword
with Slaanesh, it must replace its <Legion> keyword
with Emperor’s Children, and it has two additional
wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may
replace its multi-melta with two blastmasters.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Personally, now that cultists are 50 points a squad, I think its a lot closer to CSM. A base CSM squad is only 65 points and you can take a heavy weapon like a lascannon, missile launcher or a autocannon.

And I feel that 5 CSM are more resilient than 10 cultists (if we are going for minimum squads because of cost). Mass cultists only become much better than CSM if we are taking a squad of 40 cultists and planning to use strategems and stuff on them.

If cost is an issue and we are just taking the minimum to make up for troop choices, I personally think the higher durability of a squad of CSM for 15 points more is worth it. Just one or two mortar shots on a squad of cultists is probably enough to kill it off (with morale), while the same squad of CSM would laugh at a mortar shot. Especially if they are in cover.

So, for cultists, either you build an army around exploiting the power of a squad of 40 cultists, if not, then I think a min squad of CSM is probably just a bit better than squad of 10 cultists. So erm yeah, for cultists, either go big (40 man) or just don't bother.


The problem with CSM is that they sort of suck as screening units, which is really what cultists are for. Sure, a missilelauncher in cover will deal more damage than a 10man cultist unit, but that's not the point. The cultist unit is there to control the board, keep enemy units from getting too close to your actual workhorse units via deepstrike or positioning. They're also throwaway disposable, which is what you want for sucking up overwatch before a better unit charges, or for sacrificing to an enemy charge so that you can counter-hit them in the next turn. In 8th, an army needs these sort of screening units, and CSM just don't fill that role.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 20:13:29


Post by: Abaddon303


Maybe CSM do tho? Okay 5 marines don't have quite the board control of 10 cultists, but at only 15 points more, maybe they can just be considered screens or to be thrown in to soak up overwatch. Maybe we shouldn't be so protective of our marine troops.
Does anybody have any stats comparing resilience of marines with cultists depending on strength/type of weapon? Any good math hammerers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'm in agreement with the earlier comment about MSU cultists. 10 cultists don't do anything. They don't even really give you much more area denial than 5 marines. I think a 200pt unit of cultists is better than 200pts of marines. But I think a 65pt unit of marines is probably less wasted points than 65pts of cultists if that makes sense?
you can start thinking about adding a heavy weapon to that unit and maybe expecting it to do something for you. Especially the new 10pt autocannons look inviting...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry to triple post. I'm thinking of introducing some daemons to my black legion, specifically bloodletters.
Now I believe I'm right in thinking I can run a khorne keyword detachment.
Could I make that a battalion with a large unit of khorne marked cultists a large unit of bloodletters and a MSU of khorne marked marines? Could the cultists and marines still be black legion?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 22:36:37


Post by: Nature's Minister


Cultist change cost me 40 points in my list. Annoying but not a huge deal.

Mass cultists never really worked for me as well as I wanted.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 22:43:22


Post by: McGibs


Abaddon303 wrote:
Maybe CSM do tho? Okay 5 marines don't have quite the board control of 10 cultists, but at only 15 points more, maybe they can just be considered screens or to be thrown in to soak up overwatch. Maybe we shouldn't be so protective of our marine troops.
Does anybody have any stats comparing resilience of marines with cultists depending on strength/type of weapon? Any good math hammerers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'm in agreement with the earlier comment about MSU cultists. 10 cultists don't do anything. They don't even really give you much more area denial than 5 marines. I think a 200pt unit of cultists is better than 200pts of marines. But I think a 65pt unit of marines is probably less wasted points than 65pts of cultists if that makes sense?
you can start thinking about adding a heavy weapon to that unit and maybe expecting it to do something for you. Especially the new 10pt autocannons look inviting...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry to triple post. I'm thinking of introducing some daemons to my black legion, specifically bloodletters.
Now I believe I'm right in thinking I can run a khorne keyword detachment.
Could I make that a battalion with a large unit of khorne marked cultists a large unit of bloodletters and a MSU of khorne marked marines? Could the cultists and marines still be black legion?


Hm, an interesting take. Maybe CSM pale so much because everyone is putting expensive weapons on them and hoping they'll pull their weight, where there's a million alternatives that do that job much better. But I just might see a case for running naked (maybe a c-bolter on the champ) minimum CSM squads with the same tactics as running minimum cultists squads. Board control, interference, and bullying other chaff units.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 22:47:48


Post by: Formosa


cheers Mcgibs, so I just use the hellbrute and throw on some sonic weapons, also it says i replace the multimelta, does that mean i can take 2 blastmasters if i have 2 multi meltas ?

Also is it still a hellbrute or is the datasheet changed to "sonic dreadnought"?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 22:54:47


Post by: McGibs


It's just a hellbrute, no keyword changes (aside from the forced Slaanesh and Emperor's Children ones).
And Hellbrutes can't take two multimeltas, as the left arm can only be melee weapons, or a missile launcher. So only two blastmasters.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/30 22:55:46


Post by: BlaxicanX


It retains the helbrute keyword and datasheet. The <mark> is just automatically Slaanesh and the <legion> is automatically Emperor's Children.

edit- Beaten to the punch.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 02:03:22


Post by: ZergSmasher


 lindsay40k wrote:
Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:

- grudgingly pay AM Veteran pts and claw it back from efficiently priced other stuff
- replace some with CSM units
- take Daemon Battalion instead
- reduce use of CP

All four of those options are okay(ish). Personally I like the Daemons battalion for a CP battery. 3 units of Nurglings, plus 2 Heralds (for me, usually a Poxbringer and Herald of Slaanesh for the spells) is just shy of 300 points and gives you good utility. As for Cultists, I think min units are still okay even at 50 points. Even a max blob of 40 is doable at 200, although you've got to build around them if you take more (but you already did somewhat, just more so now). Replacing min Cultists units with min CSM units is not a great idea, as you've got half the wounds and still pay more. Alpha Legion could probably do okay taking 5-man CSM units with a single Lascannon in each as nuisance units, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Reducing use of CP is difficult, as a lot of Chaos lists and strategies are CP intensive. If you aren't running large cultist blobs, at least you won't need to budget 2CP for Tide of Traitors anymore, though.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 02:42:09


Post by: Nature's Minister


I mean, cultist lists have pretty much been dead for the last six months anyway, so they're just setting a dead horse on fire with the points changes. They weren't fun to play and had too many hard counters. Just, really hard to place high with a csm list any other way.

It would have been nice if they reduced csm squad costs but oh well.

It doesn't look like there are any super dominant unbeatable lists anymore. Maybe what was improved will help to bring back viability. 100 daemonettes, a castellan, a couple of deredeo dreadnoughts and a couple of rapier batteries is 2000 points


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 03:13:00


Post by: First Among Gators


I think it will always be worth taking the one large squad of cultists. If your opponent cant/doesnt deal with it it will be a pretty strong unit. Otherwise I agree that CSM squads are at least equal as far as troops go if not better


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 04:52:51


Post by: Formosa


Ok so new list, just need to check it’s legal as it’s battlescribe and want to make sure

Spearhead

Ahirman on disc

Hellbrute x2 fist
Hellbrute x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter

Traitor guard.
Company commander
Company commander

10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants

1000pts on the dot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit, if legal what psychic powers would you suggest on ahirman for this list?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 06:32:12


Post by: McGibs


It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos


Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 09:11:27


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 McGibs wrote:
It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos


Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The sonic dread is more of a grey area...


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 09:14:45


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Formosa wrote:
Ok so new list, just need to check it’s legal as it’s battlescribe and want to make sure

Spearhead

Ahirman on disc

Hellbrute x2 fist
Hellbrute x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter

Traitor guard.
Company commander
Company commander

10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants

1000pts on the dot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit, if legal what psychic powers would you suggest on ahirman for this list?


Seems legal, might i ask why run the fist hellbrutes over flails or dakka options?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 12:21:48


Post by: Formosa


 McGibs wrote:
It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos


Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).



Thank you for the reply but reading that FAQ it seems that it is a ferrum dreadnought but uses the hellbrute data sheet, different name same rules and would come under the ferrum infernum dreadnought name for the datasheet... that is ambiguous enough for me to have to ask the TO if it applies against the 2 datasheet limit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Ok so new list, just need to check it’s legal as it’s battlescribe and want to make sure

Spearhead

Ahirman on disc

Hellbrute x2 fist
Hellbrute x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter

Traitor guard.
Company commander
Company commander

10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants

1000pts on the dot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit, if legal what psychic powers would you suggest on ahirman for this list?


Seems legal, might i ask why run the fist hellbrutes over flails or dakka options?



I’m trying to squeeze in as many dreads as I can do trying to keep them as cheap as possible, plus I own lots of dreads with dual ccw.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 12:29:54


Post by: First Among Gators


 Formosa wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos


Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).



Thank you for the reply but reading that FAQ it seems that it is a ferrum dreadnought but uses the hellbrute data sheet, different name same rules and would come under the ferrum infernum dreadnought name for the datasheet... that is ambiguous enough for me to have to ask the TO if it applies against the 2 datasheet limit.



Definitely check with your TO because their ruling is all that really matters at the end of the day, but do remember that the Rule of 3 is a rule that specifically states against more than 3 of the one datasheet, which they do share. It is kinda ambiguous though and i culd see it interpreted both ways


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 12:36:24


Post by: Formosa


I am asking her now, luckily she lives next door lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
she has allowed is as she stated that this could apply

I am going to following this ruling that GW made in regards to a similar issue:

Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different datasheets for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines?
A3) Yes.

So although they all use the Helbrute datasheet, they will be considered to be different for the purposes of that rule


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 12:40:49


Post by: First Among Gators


I think that is a different story, as they share a Name, but have differences in datasheet, whereas these two have different names, but identical datasheet.

Again, go with what is allowed, just pointing out that from a RAW perspective i dont believe that to be the exact same thing


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 12:42:21


Post by: Formosa


crikey thats confusing, i might also ping GW an email just to let them know, possibly may be sorted in an FAQ later on


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 14:54:32


Post by: McGibs


Your TO is law at the end of the day, but anywhere else I'd argue that they dont even have different names. The ferrum dread just doesnt exist anymore as a unit. That FAQ was just saying: "Hey, if you have a FW Ferrus Dread model, it's a Hellbrute now."

Why it's a full separate entry on battlescribe is baffling to me. THAT'S the confusing part.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 15:19:34


Post by: vaklor4


For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 16:10:06


Post by: Not Online!!!


 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.



Now if you'd pick 5 man CSM squads then i'd personally reccomend you give them also a HW to bolster dakka a bit, probably a Autocannon?

Alternate take is target saturation, as many 5 man berzerker squads with rhinos as possible as to guarantee that you get to the enemy. Granted you then have nothing that can sit on a objective.

Technically you could put a 5 man berzerker and 5 man csm squad with a heavy weapon in each of your rhinos, drop the marines off somewhere on a point and throw the berzerker at faces , i mean that could work but tbh i would probably still take a big cultist blob just for the fact that they are prety hard to remove and can be dangerous.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 16:18:43


Post by: techsoldaten


 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.


It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.

However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...




Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 17:14:05


Post by: vaklor4


 techsoldaten wrote:
 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.


It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.

However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...




Yeah, very specifically troop choice, for detachment reasons. The more wounds IS fantastic, but I gotta wonder what the overall math is with the +1 toughness and 3+ save. That's an incredibly higher chance of shrugging off wounds and resisting AP, and the bracket of 3-4 toughness effects a /lot/ of guns in the game.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 17:22:48


Post by: JNAProductions


What weapons do you guys want me to mathhammer Cultists vs. Marines against?


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 17:27:31


Post by: vaklor4


 JNAProductions wrote:
What weapons do you guys want me to mathhammer Cultists vs. Marines against?


Because I have access to the better in every way possible Khorne Berzerkers for melee cultist comparisons, let's look at Autogun Cultists vs Boltgun Marines. 4 marines with boltguns, and a heavy bolter on the fifth.


Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition] @ 2018/12/31 17:39:38


Post by: JNAProductions


I meant more in "Shooting at the Troops choice" not an actual 1v1, but sure!

Cultists have 10 shots, assuming out of rapid fire.
5 hit
5/3 wound
5/9 failed saves

.56 dead per round, or 7.28 points. (Not including HB cost since I'm AFB.)

Marines have 4 shots and 3 HB shots
8/3 hits
16/9 wound
40/27 failed saves
and
2 hits
4/3 wound
4/3 dead

2.81 dead per round, or 14.05 points.

Marines are also hit less hard by hit penalties, more resistant to morale, and look cooler. Also have better range on the Heavy Bolter.