So I see the whole roll of reivers which is a specialised lightning strike unit who use stealth. The question is will gw replace scouts with reivers in future or even just make a new scout equivalent?
Are there any examples in the fluff of scouts being turned prinaris
Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:
Scouts -> Reivers
Tacticals -> Intercessors
Devastators -> Hellblasters
Assault Marines -> Inceptors
Terminators -> Aggressors
Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor
And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.
Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:
Scouts -> Reivers
Tacticals -> Intercessors
Devastators -> Hellblasters
Assault Marines -> Inceptors
Terminators -> Aggressors
Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor
And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.
Except neither Aggressors or Reivers fulfill the same role as scouts, and both are inferior.
Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:
Scouts -> Reivers
Tacticals -> Intercessors
Devastators -> Hellblasters
Assault Marines -> Inceptors
Terminators -> Aggressors
Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor
And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.
Except neither Aggressors or Reivers fulfill the same role as scouts, and both are inferior.
Basically in want to buy some scouts but worry they will be retconned some time in the future!
I wonder what the process of making Primaris is? Is it the exact same as normal marines or do they just make them straight into a Primaris instead of doing the neophyte stage
I'm not sure what that slot is, specifically, but they're filling... something. And hey, I'm one of the odd people that really actually likes the general idea. There was a good short story in the recent White Dwarf about them scaling up spires in a hive city, and I think it's cool for Space Marines to have a 'lightweight, fast' variation of their power armor.
Scouts, however, are pretty solid and they do what they do, and Reivers can't cover that.
Until GW decides to merge Primaris and OldMarines into one hybrid thing or outright discontinue OldMarines and add more to the Primaris line... Scouts are gonna be around for a while.
This is the thing, has there been any info in books about how new Primaris are made? Is it exactly the same process as before but it's just a different end result?
The problem is that Reivers are the weakest of the analogues.
Intercessors are clearly Primaric Tacs
Aggressors are Primaris Terminators
Hellblasters are Primaris Devs, etc
But Reivers are not really like Scouts at all, save their forward advancing tactics. But I'd argue that they are more like Assault Marine without jump packs than like Scouts.
There is also the fact that Reivers are NOT Troops like Scouts.
So for me, there is just too many differences for Reivers and Scouts to be considered equivalents to one another
Trying to rewrite some of my homebrew chapter lore to fit Primaris, I encountered the same question. I agree though they are more like Assault Marines than Scouts. Fast at least through ruins with grapnels, get deep strike, essentially have a chainsword. I believe like Aggressors and Hellblasters both share the Fire Support role, Inceptors and Reivers both share Close Assault roles, and only Interceptors are Battleline. Not to mention Reivers are deployed along with Aggressors in the Elites part of the list rather than Fast Attack. In the field they do look like they do similar roles, ranging wide of the enemy, gathering intel, annihilating patrols, laying traps and ambushes so they can strike at the enemy's flanks when the main force engages in battle.
As for what Scouts actually do on the tabletop rather than the lore, they are the cheap bulk troop choice to support the Tactical core of the old gun line if you had them, spread out, infiltrate and scout move into no man's land and deny area and apply pressure.
Reivers deep strike or outflank and make surgical hits to break the enemy rank, remove an enemy's vital unit or force a distraction to allow the main force to go about its business, more like an Assault Squad or Vanguard Veteran Squad.
Back to the lore, some chapters don't run their neophytes as scouts. The Templars famously run their tactical squads with their neophytes as Crusader Squads and usually tend toward short fire support with special weapons and shotguns or heaps of bolters, or close combat, while others run veteran marines in the Scout Company like the Space Wolves. On the other hand, a Reiver is by definition a fully fledged Primaris marine who has undergone training, all implantation and given his battle armour. A chapter that runs experienced marines in their scout Company could employ Reivers in this role instead of regular scouts, besides snipers and camo cloaks they have roughly equivalent equipment. Bolt Carbines/Bolters, Heavy Pistols/Shotguns at S5, though the Reiver's have that load hybridised with the pistol and combat knife. Instead of Camo they get better armour and get rapid insertion options with their equipment instead of concealed positions.
However, most chapters do train their neophytes by combat in the 10th Company before their promotion to full Battle-Brother, so I doubt this radical shift would change procedure for many chapters.
I don't see Reivers actually replacing the Scouts for a long long time, though I am convinced many chapters would second some Reivers to Scout deployments. Maybe the 10th Company could run ~80 Scouts and ~20 Reivers if the chapter caps their Scout Company at all.
Primaris, at least other than the ones Cawl and Rouboute handed out like party favors from his cold storage, are trained and made in the same way as any other marine. The only difference is in the later stages of implantation, they get 3 new parts Cawl worked into the process.
Sinew Coils, the Magnificat and the Belisarian Furnace.
The coils are durametallic fiber mesh through their muscle structures, not I suppose unlike the electropolymer and fiber bundles in power armour itself, and act as durable, powerful artifical muscle. The Magnificat is part of the immortis gland the Emperor put in the Primarchs but Cawl only found some of the genetic blueprints. Whether the Emperor himself destroyed the records or other forces is unknown. It interfaces with the biscopea and osmodula and helps bulk the marine up. The Furnace is a gland between their primary and new heart that can release a massive healing boost and adrenaline rush, like a dose of combat stimms.
Honestly, the only reason Primaris units can't just fight like normal marines is Gulliman's decree to follow the old single armament legion style. I would love to see Primaris Tacticals with a Las Talon, Plasma Incinerator and Bolt Rifles. Deathwatch can kinda run these, besides stuck with Incnerator, Bolt Rifle variants with Reivers/Aggressors/Inceptors mixed in.
Come 9th edition Old Marines will be relegated to "Index Only" status or perhaps even "Just use them as "Counts as" Primaris Marines" because GW can't copyright the name "Space Marine".
Very likely. I believe every Primaris released thus far is intended as an analogue to an already existing role:
Scouts -> Reivers
Tacticals -> Intercessors
Devastators -> Hellblasters
Assault Marines -> Inceptors
Terminators -> Aggressors
Dreadnought -> Redemptor Dreadnought
Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider -> Repulsor
And I fully expect each of the old roles above to be completely retired at some time in the - hopefully distant - future. I don't see any reason why Games-Workshop ought to feel beholden to the idea of "Neophytes," unless the community kicks up a fuss.
I'd kick up a fuss. I'm in the middle of paying someone to commission what is essentially an entire space marine scout army, replete with custom angry marine scenes, dioramas, artwork, illustrations - I'd be pissed.
I'd kick up a fuss. I'm in the middle of paying someone to commission what is essentially an entire space marine scout army, replete with custom angry marine scenes, dioramas, artwork, illustrations - I'd be pissed.
That sounds utterly rad, I wish you the best for a legion of Angry Scouts.
No, I don't think so. Reivers are melee and terror specialists at the end of the day. On the other hand, Scouts are stealth specialists who chiefly wield ranged weapons. Codex-wise, they don't line up. Not to mention the fact that Guilliman despised the similar 22nd Chapter of the Ultramarines back in the day.
Scouts represent an important part of marine creation, specifically the implantation of human recruits with the marine organs, resculping of their bodies with hormones and inculcating the recruits in the chapter ethos.
We're told that the only difference between a normal marine and a Primaris marine is the addition of two extra organs, so there is nothing to suggest these new recruits wouldn't require the same acclimatisation and education process. I think Chapters would also be reluctant to change their recruitment process wholesale, the Primaris let out of cold storage from a time when these processes didn't exist is in fact a major point of tension in the lore.
In addition, the huge stocks of stable geneseed made available to chapters by Cawl and Guilliman should have increased by recruitment and implantation success rates. So there should actually be more scouts now than in previous centuries!
As to whether the GW commercial department with obsolete the scout model range, I don't think that is a topic for the background forum
Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target.
Andykp wrote: It certainly looks like they will replace the classic scout battle field roles. The recruitment part seems a grey area at the minute.
The thing with the recruitment is the specific primaris implants. When not implanted when the other implants are it is seen as dangerous like with Calgary.
This means that any new primaris recruits already seem to have skipped the scout stage of sorts.
I assume they learn all the skills in training whilst the body grows and graduate straight to the primaris role they are given.
Oh my. Yeah, those Eliminators remind me strongly of the FWHH Recon Squads the legions would have used, I guess the G-Man is bringing a few more units forward. I would love to see the 40k Primaris version of a destroyer squad. I guess Inceptors are actually modernised, non-psychotic moritats as well. The Victrix Guards are a lot like the Ultramarine Suzerain squad. Turns out 40k 9th will actually be 30k with AoS rules. Who knew.
RaptorusRex wrote: No, I don't think so. Reivers are melee and terror specialists at the end of the day. On the other hand, Scouts are stealth specialists who chiefly wield ranged weapons. Codex-wise, they don't line up. Not to mention the fact that Guilliman despised the similar 22nd Chapter of the Ultramarines back in the day.
Uh... Are you referring to the 22nd in Lord of Ultramar? There isn't any connection. Those weren't close range 'terror' troops, they were a dedicated NBC weapons Chapter (Nukes/Bioweapons/Chems) and he hated the failure that resorting to those weapons represented. That's not even vaguely related.
I don't think they got rid of the scout phase of marine creation. Maybe with the cawlness having a better success rate and faster maturation they can bypass the time that implantation would "normally" take. then since the marines are more fully matured they can figure out which marine is best for which role, then begin training in a specialty (more 30kish).
Dunno, GW should flesh out how they're implemented in conjunction with integration into existing chapters.
At least we'll find more out when the 80 days have expired.
Racerguy180 wrote: I don't think they got rid of the scout phase of marine creation. Maybe with the cawlness having a better success rate and faster maturation they can bypass the time that implantation would "normally" take. then since the marines are more fully matured they can figure out which marine is best for which role, then begin training in a speciality (more 30kish).
Dunno, GW should flesh out how they're implemented in conjunction with integration into existing chapters.
At least we'll find more out when the 80 days have expired.
That's the bit that got me the most. I'm.trying to integrate Primaris into my homebrew, but trying to really nail down lore on what sort of balance devis vs hellblasters, hellblaster to aggressors, inceptors to reivers to assault marines. They tripped the options for use and fire support units in one swoop. At the same time, Mr Roberto Gilligan seems far less concerned about his codex than Codex Compliant chapters had adhered to the book themselves, so it could be a "u chooz" situation.
Personally, I run my one all primaris company 20 reivers, 20 hellblasters, and they don gravis armour like normal assault and devastators don centurion suits. I'll ha e some snipers to integrate but attaches to the 10th makes the most sense before I see the actual box. What is it now, 36 days?
Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.
It will happen over time and you will be able to buy boxes of squat marines for the foreseeable future, but they are being replaced and investing in non-primaris is like buying stock in typewriters.
GW will not release anymore squat marines for the imperium but for the obvious exception of Horus Heresy.
Its gonna take a long time. All the vehicles need to change over too, and the day they sell the last rhino will be the day the hobby dies for me. Space marines without razorbacks is like Necrons without Monoliths. Orks without Trukkz.
I'll probably be one of those people that use actual squats as counts as Gusrd, using oldsman marines ase pimaris era marines.
Kai Calimatinus wrote:Its gonna take a long time...
God, I hope so. I just need to finish my current Dark Angels project, but I'm terrified that they're going to pull the rug just when I'm within sight of the finishing line. I'm considering just throwing down the one thousand or so euros now, just to ensure I have everything I need without worrying about discontinuances.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
It's the writing on the wall, no matter what C̶h̶e̶m̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶A̶l̶i̶ GW says about SM's being fine and not going anywhere it's just inevitable. Look at what they're doing with some AoS ranges and the culling they're receiving with little to no warning- unlike this it will be a long drawn-out process but it will eventually happen.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
It's hardly that controversial a claim. The best evidence is past experience. Generally, if a kit gets updated, the old kit is discontinued. If someone wants to make the argument that Primaris aren't replacements for Space Marines, but are rather companions/complements, I'm not going to argue. I'm happy to just wait and see if time proves me right. And as Grimtuff points out, at least this time they're gently phasing Primaris in alongside stumpies rather than just squatting/tomb kinging/brettoning *BLAMM*ing stumpies out of production. In any case, I hope that's what they're doing.
Common sense, a recent word from Jes Goodwin saying basically that Primaris are intended as a replacement for the space marines line, and a long history of getting fethed over by GW.
If you redesign something, it stands to reason you're replacing the old design. Once you redesign a car to be 30% more fuel efficient, you don't use the old design again.
He said the Primaris were a chance to redesign the Space Marine. The rest is entirely your own inference.
Seems like a pretty reasonable interpretation to me.
How many times have GW "redesigned" something and kept the originals? Not many. Only one I can think of off of the top of my head is the Rhino, with all the other vehicles on that chassis eventually going over to the new one but there was a crossover period where you had new Rhinos and old Predators side by side in studio pics.
Common sense, a recent word from Jes Goodwin saying basically that Primaris are intended as a replacement for the space marines line, and a long history of getting fethed over by GW.
Do you have any evidence to refute this?
So it other words, no, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim and it is just your opinion of what might possibly happen in future.
Jes Goodwin didn't say they were intended as a replacement in the Voxcast video at all. He referred to the it as marine 'redesign', but redesign does not necessarily imply replacement. Perhaps they started off as a replacement in their initial concept stage, but that isn't the case now.
I don't need evidence to refute this claim. You are the one making it, the onus on you is to provide evidence (not supposition) to back it up. The only evidence we have is thus far, no classic marine unit has been taken off sale, no primaris kit has replaced a classic kit, no primaris squad kits are a direct equivalent of classic kits, and the fact that GW said in their primaris Faq that Primaris are an addition and not a replacement for classic marines.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
It's the writing on the wall, no matter what C̶h̶e̶m̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶A̶l̶i̶ GW says about SM's being fine and not going anywhere it's just inevitable. Look at what they're doing with some AoS ranges and the culling they're receiving with little to no warning- unlike this it will be a long drawn-out process but it will eventually happen.
Yes, but do you have any factual evidence to back up what you personally believe is going to happen?
So it other words, no, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim and it is just your opinion of what might possibly happen in future.
Jes Goodwin didn't say they were intended as a replacement in the Voxcast video at all. He referred to the it as marine 'redesign', but redesign does not necessarily imply replacement. Perhaps they started off as a replacement in their initial concept stage, but that isn't the case now.
I don't need evidence to refute this claim. You are the one making it, the onus on you is to provide evidence (not supposition) to back it up. The only evidence we have is thus far, no classic marine unit has been taken off sale, no primaris kit has replaced a classic kit, no primaris squad kits are a direct equivalent of classic kits, and the fact that GW said in their primaris Faq that Primaris are an addition and not a replacement for classic marines.
Well considering my conclusion is the only one that actually makes sense given all the marine releases from the past 2 years I would say you should be the one providing the evidence. I think my conclusion speaks for itself.
I don’t even know why this particular issue is the hill you’ve chosen to die on. Literally the only posts you ever make are a poor attempt to refute the obvious, you can stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand as much as you want. Anybody with an ounce of common sense would bet on Primaris as the future.
And if GW ever releases a brand new box of squat marines you can start your own thread telling everyone how right you were and I will concede right then and there.
So it other words, no, you don't have any evidence to back up your claim and it is just your opinion of what might possibly happen in future.
Jes Goodwin didn't say they were intended as a replacement in the Voxcast video at all. He referred to the it as marine 'redesign', but redesign does not necessarily imply replacement. Perhaps they started off as a replacement in their initial concept stage, but that isn't the case now.
I don't need evidence to refute this claim. You are the one making it, the onus on you is to provide evidence (not supposition) to back it up. The only evidence we have is thus far, no classic marine unit has been taken off sale, no primaris kit has replaced a classic kit, no primaris squad kits are a direct equivalent of classic kits, and the fact that GW said in their primaris Faq that Primaris are an addition and not a replacement for classic marines.
Well considering my conclusion is the only one that actually makes sense given all the marine releases from the past 2 years I would say you should be the one providing the evidence. I think my conclusion speaks for itself.
I don’t even know why this particular issue is the hill you’ve chosen to die on. Literally the only posts you ever make are a poor attempt to refute the obvious, you can stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand as much as you want. Anybody with an ounce of common sense would bet on Primaris as the future.
And if GW ever releases a brand new box of squat marines you can start your own thread telling everyone how right you were and I will concede right then and there.
That's a very long way of saying you don't have any evidence, and can't prove your claim.
What you personally believe and feel makes sense is of no relevance. Its still just your opinion of what might happen, it is not fact.
Are we all in agreement now that Reivers aren't replacing Scouts, but Eliminators certainly are? B/c they obviously are meant to replace Sniper Scouts.
"Evidence" aside, anyone claiming that Oldmarines aren't on the way out ...eventually...is just sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "lalalalalala, I can't hear you lalalala" They are not going anywhere soon, and certainly not by anything GW has "officially" said, but c'mon, read the writing on the wall. GW has made it clear (by their actions/recent releases) there will not be any non-Primaris Marines released. So effectively, new players will be all Primaris, all the time. When that inevitably hurts the sales of Oldmarines, GW WILL DROP THEM.
It's kinda deviously clever of GW to encourage this drop in sales so that they can justify dropping Oldmarine kits from their line by saying the player base dictated the change with their wallets. It will be the indicator they need to know when the backlash will be at it's least
So if you want Oldmarines to stick around and don't want Primaris replacing them, boycott Primaris and buy as many Oldmarine sets as you can. Just know that not nearly enough people will be joining you in this boycott for it to matter, like at all.
I think you have failed to take into account in your supposition that not everyone may like primaris and its possible they not be as well received as you are assuming.
If Primaris sales fail to equal previous sales of classic marines by a significant margin, you may find GW turning their attention again to classic designs.
It must be nice to be so certain of your assumptions. I put the same stock in them as those of people claiming 30k is dead
robbienw wrote: I think you have failed to take into account in your supposition that not everyone may like primaris and its possible they not be as well received as you are assuming.
If Primaris sales fail to equal previous sales of classic marines by a significant margin, you may find GW turning their attention again to classic designs.
It must be nice to be so certain of your assumptions. I put the same stock in them as those of people claiming 30k is dead
I'll certainly grant I, nor anyone on dakka, is likely to have the sales data to back up any claim.
But I think it is a fair assumption that new products sell far more than older sets. This should be true, regardless of personal preference.
I have no doubt that there are plenty of Oldmarine kit still being sold. I've bough my share recently myself. But the vast majority of players are likely buying Primaris based solely on them being new. No one had Primaris before, but plenty of players had Oldmarines, so we should expect a massive sale discrepancy just off both old an new players buying the new product over older kits that they either already have, or do not see the point in buying over the new hotness.
From an business and PR standpoint, this is very smart of GW to not immediately phase out Oldmarines, but push hard for Primaris, effectively making the palyer base phase them out for them. Once the sales reach a certain "tipping-point", it will be an easy move for GW to drop the Oldmarines.
I feel this tipping-point is inevitable, as do many others. But when will be decided by the success of Primaris Marines, which aligns very well with your point, but does not contradict mine
robbienw wrote: I think you have failed to take into account in your supposition that not everyone may like primaris and its possible they not be as well received as you are assuming.
Nice of you to also assume I like Primaris. Quite the opposite. I dislike them in both execution and background wise, but I've come to see what is happening and I've come to terms with that.
robbienw wrote: I think you have failed to take into account in your supposition that not everyone may like primaris and its possible they not be as well received as you are assuming.
Nice of you to also assume I like Primaris. Quite the opposite. I dislike them in both execution and background wise, but I've come to see what is happening and I've come to terms with that.
At the end of the day this is a risk analysis situation.
If Oldmarines are here to stay indefinitely (unlikely), then we can all just buy whatever we like, secure in the knowledge that it will be valid (ish)
If Oldmarines are indeed on the way out, it makes sense to make preparations to either A) upgrade to Primaris, B) get used to the idea of proxying your Oldmarines as Primaris or C) just stop playing altogether if you loathe Primaris so much.
So if you are confident no change is need, that's a risk you take. But if you make the slow transition to Primaris, you're good in either case. That's all I'm saying
Oldmarines are going nowhere. They'll be present for years to come. However, they will be undercut in rules as the Primaris line develops, to encourage the player base to migrate.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Except that's not what Jes Goodwin actually said, is it?
He said the Primaris were a chance to redesign the Space Marine. The rest is entirely your own inference.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You're still jumping to your conclusion.
So far, we've no indication that the existing Marine stuff is going anywhere. At all. Just that future kits will most likely be Primaris oriented.
I mean, evidence, inference and indications aside, do either of you genuinely believe that oldmarines are staying around forever, or are you trying to make another point entirely? Because I still don't get what's so insensible about the assertion that Primaris will eventually - and eventually is not the same as soon - be replacing stubbies.
I think given the new release info we're seeing the answer is "no" rather instead it seems there is gonna be a new type of primaris called the vanguard that will replace scouts
BaconCatBug wrote: Pattern Recognition is not hard evidence but it's pretty good evidence imho.
If a dog bites you thirty times after you try to pet it, do you pet it a thirty first time?
As evidenced by my 20+ year history of buying GW stuff.....yeah, probably.....
At least Im just going to eventually buy a very small force of Primaris to use in Skirmish games as true-scaled marines, which will be fine as they will be the only marines present. Stuff like a Hellblaster's plasma weapon will just be an outsized (so sized for Astartes vs. Guard) normal plasma gun, etc.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Except that's not what Jes Goodwin actually said, is it?
He said the Primaris were a chance to redesign the Space Marine. The rest is entirely your own inference.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You're still jumping to your conclusion.
So far, we've no indication that the existing Marine stuff is going anywhere. At all. Just that future kits will most likely be Primaris oriented.
I mean, evidence, inference and indications aside, do either of you genuinely believe that oldmarines are staying around forever, or are you trying to make another point entirely? Because I still don't get what's so insensible about the assertion that Primaris will eventually - and eventually is not the same as soon - be replacing stubbies.
I think its a possibility they could eventually be replaced fully by primaris. But I don't think its certain or definite to happen at this point.
I think its also possible that when GW are done with primaris in say 8 to 10 years time, they may return to classic marines and release updated kits in a bid to sell more even more marines. GW have form with returning to older stuff.
I also think its possible in say 10 years time or so when they are done with primaris, they may produce a new third type of marine that combines all the good elements of classics and primaris and ends up replacing both types.
These are all possibilities, I'm not saying any of them will definitely happen.
I think its churlish and arrogant when someone says something is DEFINITELY going to happen based on debatable points and supposition, rather than hard evidence, and that you are an idiot or have no common sense because you don't accept their singular opinion as fact. I've known people to claim so many things are certain so many times, then something different happens, that I can't take people who are opinionated in such a way seriously. Say you think its possible or even highly likely, but don't assert it as a fact.
You know, as much as I'm a stick my fingers in my ears kind of guy, as Galef says, if it gets to the point where Primaris outstrip the Gary Oldsmarines to the point of questioning the line as far as economic viability, GW would be correct to drop them. They are a company, and the minority still buying them won't have much right to demand they keep a kit only a small number of people buy.
Like I say, I'll just counts-as the short guys as the 2W ass-kickers they ought to have been from the start, and if any rules exist, and counts-as little round karadron as normal marine rules, if'n the shorties don't come back.
Kai Calimatinus wrote: You know, as much as I'm a stick my fingers in my ears kind of guy, as Galef says, if it gets to the point where Primaris outstrip the Gary Oldsmarines to the point of questioning the line as far as economic viability, GW would be correct to drop them. They are a company, and the minority still buying them won't have much right to demand they keep a kit only a small number of people buy.
Like I say, I'll just counts-as the short guys as the 2W ass-kickers they ought to have been from the start, and if any rules exist, and counts-as little round karadron as normal marine rules, if'n the shorties don't come back.
This kinda gets to the point of why I wish they'd hurry up and drop the Oldmarines.
Right now if you put down Oldmarines, they should be used as such to avoid confusion. Because they do still have rules.
But if the rules are dropped and the ONLY options are Primaris, than players with Oldmarines can simply use them as Primaris with no issues.
A Bolter Marine would be an obvious Intercessor, A Plasma gun Marine as a Hellblaster, etc.
What GW needs to release to really cement the transition is a Devastor-like Primaris kit in which they can wield HBs, MLs and Lascannons.
Once they do that, even Heavy Weapon Marines can be used as this new unit.
IMO, GW should have NEVER made Primaris as a separate line alongside regular Marine. They EASILY could have started 8E with all Marines & Chaos Marines at 2W/2A and AP-1 Bolters and all the new kits could just be a new mark of armour for Guilliman/Cawl's reinforcements.
But instead, it seems obvious (to me anyway) that GW wants to do a slow transition to "effectively" replace regular Marines, while still having them available. Which is smart form a business standpoint, since you won't alienate as many players all at once.
When (and if) Primaris kwyword goes away since they are all that's left, especially with the business of their size being due to a new organ's effect on existing growth controlling inplants like thr osmodula, and with the Rubicon Primaris, I could absolutely see people saying "yeah my marines all got upgraded to Primaris, but even though Cawl's gene seed was pure their existing defects meant they didn't grow much just get stronger, with higher muscle density, and those metallofibre muscle coils Cawl installs. So they just wear their old armour"
Kai Calimatinus wrote: When (and if) Primaris kwyword goes away since they are all that's left, especially with the business of their size being due to a new organ's effect on existing growth controlling inplants like thr osmodula, and with the Rubicon Primaris, I could absolutely see people saying "yeah my marines all got upgraded to Primaris, but even though Cawl's gene seed was pure their existing defects meant they didn't grow much just get stronger, with higher muscle density, and those metallofibre muscle coils Cawl installs. So they just wear their old armour"
And there are plenty of fluff justifications just like this.
They problem right now is that if both Primaris and regular Marine exist on the table top, you have to buy one or the other to "properly" represent them. Once regular Marines go extinct, players will have more freedom to use either models to represent the only Marines at that point (Primaris). Which is the only reason I want Oldmarines gone. Not because I don't like them, or like Primaris more, but because I want players to have more modeling freedom to take either aesthetic they want.
But GW seems pretty devious in this regard, because they want you to buy more models, which is why they will continue to only release Primaris Marines and only keep Old Marines available as long as they still sell. But there should be a tipping point at which the vast majority of players just stop buying Old Marines (because they either already have all they want or just don't like them compared to the new Primaris GW is HEAVILY pushing). That day is coming, eventually
Primaris also can't fill all roles in the space marine OOB. so until we get like wave 3 or so of Primaris. the upcoming wave 2 might finally make scouts "less important" (in terms of tactical niche) but we still need a "heavy armor" wave to fill in termies, etc
Kai Calimatinus wrote: When (and if) Primaris kwyword goes away since they are all that's left, especially with the business of their size being due to a new organ's effect on existing growth controlling inplants like thr osmodula, and with the Rubicon Primaris, I could absolutely see people saying "yeah my marines all got upgraded to Primaris, but even though Cawl's gene seed was pure their existing defects meant they didn't grow much just get stronger, with higher muscle density, and those metallofibre muscle coils Cawl installs. So they just wear their old armour"
And there are plenty of fluff justifications just like this.
They problem right now is that if both Primaris and regular Marine exist on the table top, you have to buy one or the other to "properly" represent them.
Once regular Marines go extinct, players will have more freedom to use either models to represent the only Marines at that point (Primaris).
Which is the only reason I want Oldmarines gone. Not because I don't like them, or like Primaris more, but because I want players to have more modeling freedom to take either aesthetic they want.
But GW seems pretty devious in this regard, because they want you to buy more models, which is why they will continue to only release Primaris Marines and only keep Old Marines available as long as they still sell.
But there should be a tipping point at which the vast majority of players just stop buying Old Marines (because they either already have all they want or just don't like them compared to the new Primaris GW is HEAVILY pushing). That day is coming, eventually
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Fine by me as long as they have equivalents of most of the Marine weapon options.
tanks are something that can be left until last as they're easy to say "well primaris are using predators" bikes are arguably something we effectively have with inceptors
we definatly need a "heavy" force though. armor, heavy weapons and duability
BrianDavion wrote: tanks are something that can be left until last as they're easy to say "well primaris are using predators" bikes are arguably something we effectively have with inceptors
we definatly need a "heavy" force though. armor, heavy weapons and duability
I don't disagree with that, the tanks just need to be primarined though, so maybe grav and a slightly larger size... And guns, so many guns.
BrianDavion wrote: tanks are something that can be left until last as they're easy to say "well primaris are using predators" bikes are arguably something we effectively have with inceptors
we definatly need a "heavy" force though. armor, heavy weapons and duability
I don't disagree with that, the tanks just need to be primarined though, so maybe grav and a slightly larger size... And guns, so many guns.
grav predator, with gatling laser and twin lasers on the side capped with missile launchers, and a hull mounted hurricane bolter!
Brutus_Apex wrote: Yes, the entire SM range is being replaced with Primaris.
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Except that's not what Jes Goodwin actually said, is it?
He said the Primaris were a chance to redesign the Space Marine. The rest is entirely your own inference.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You're still jumping to your conclusion.
So far, we've no indication that the existing Marine stuff is going anywhere. At all. Just that future kits will most likely be Primaris oriented.
I mean, evidence, inference and indications aside, do either of you genuinely believe that oldmarines are staying around forever, or are you trying to make another point entirely? Because I still don't get what's so insensible about the assertion that Primaris will eventually - and eventually is not the same as soon - be replacing stubbies.
I think its a possibility they could eventually be replaced fully by primaris. But I don't think its certain or definite to happen at this point.
I think its also possible that when GW are done with primaris in say 8 to 10 years time, they may return to classic marines and release updated kits in a bid to sell more even more marines. GW have form with returning to older stuff.
I also think its possible in say 10 years time or so when they are done with primaris, they may produce a new third type of marine that combines all the good elements of classics and primaris and ends up replacing both types.
These are all possibilities, I'm not saying any of them will definitely happen.
I think its churlish and arrogant when someone says something is DEFINITELY going to happen based on debatable points and supposition, rather than hard evidence, and that you are an idiot or have no common sense because you don't accept their singular opinion as fact. I've known people to claim so many things are certain so many times, then something different happens, that I can't take people who are opinionated in such a way seriously. Say you think its possible or even highly likely, but don't assert it as a fact.
To be fair to you, many of us neglected to temper our opinions with, "I think," or "I believe," but I always assume that that's implied, as most of us don't really wtf we're talking about anyway. I certainly don't.
Formosa wrote: Jesus Christ it does haha, thing is I love and hate the repulsor, I love the chassis and turret but the rest is rubbish, so I fixed it lol
I mean, if the entire primaris vehicle range is rediculas and over the top at least it'd be consistant
Looks like Primaris are getting some kind of Autocannon weapon. That's officially Primaris with Heavy Weapons. One step closer to OldMarines being redudndant
Galef wrote: Looks like Primaris are getting some kind of Autocannon weapon. That's officially Primaris with Heavy Weapons. One step closer to OldMarines being redudndant
I dunno I suspect they're gonna be very differant from devestators. devestators are a unit designed to take a position and rain fire down, these look like mobile troops designed to provide rapid fire support to areas in a shifting battlefield (honestly more in line with what marines should be mind you)
GW might also be deciding to retire the concept of scouts as their "ultimate solution" to the "scout problem" (namely that scouts are always gonna be cheaper then tac marines and the better spam troop)
BrianDavion wrote: GW might also be deciding to retire the concept of scouts as their "ultimate solution" to the "scout problem" (namely that scouts are always gonna be cheaper then tac marines and the better spam troop)
I do agree. While I always played mostly Tacs and took some sniper scouts in ye olde days, because I mostly enjoyed building Tac Squads more, I always play games I mean to win more like Storm Troopers, with scouts with bolters supported by tactical holding the obj and in old BA 4th/5th, Assualt Marine combat squads doing the taking. A chapter is usually as rare to field Scouts as it is to put out Veterans, yet we don't on the table top. I can see that approach to rebalancing.
usmcmidn wrote: In Dark Imperium doesn’t it literally say there won’t be any more “old” Marines? I remember reading something like that.
No, it doesn't.
Also, subsequent fluff and GW statements since Dark Imperium have confirmed normal space marines are still being made in the current point of the timeline.
My question regarding the Primaris/oldmarine divide is... if they really are going to eventually replace the old marines, are we ever going to get Primaris kits that actually live up to the current Tactical squad/Assault squad/Devastator squad kits we have now? As in, am I ever going to be able to put an Intercessor squad on the table with a plasma gun and a combi-plas on the sarg? Or is the future of the Primaris line just going to be full of these guys who have very little in the way of options? It seems like GW are hell bent on making the Primaris units as inflexible as possible, to the point that throwing special weapons on them requires a totally different box (like the Hellblasters). Is that the future of this line? Are Marines going to be Eldar where if I want a melta gun I have to grab a kit of Primaris Fire Dragons? I hope not, but it seems like that's where we're going.
creeping-deth87 wrote: My question regarding the Primaris/oldmarine divide is... if they really are going to eventually replace the old marines, are we ever going to get Primaris kits that actually live up to the current Tactical squad/Assault squad/Devastator squad kits we have now? As in, am I ever going to be able to put an Intercessor squad on the table with a plasma gun and a combi-plas on the sarg? Or is the future of the Primaris line just going to be full of these guys who have very little in the way of options? It seems like GW are hell bent on making the Primaris units as inflexible as possible, to the point that throwing special weapons on them requires a totally different box (like the Hellblasters). Is that the future of this line? Are Marines going to be Eldar where if I want a melta gun I have to grab a kit of Primaris Fire Dragons? I hope not, but it seems like that's where we're going.
It definitely seems like GW is moving towards more homogenized units.
Which does have a certain appeal. It not only matches more with several Xenos units that cannot mix options at all, but it kinda speeds up the game.
I am all for this eventual game-state, however my objection is to the method in which GW seems to be implementing the transition: very, VERY slowly with full denial that old options will go away.
This has created this almost unbearable "limbo" game-state in which players are unsure of new purchases and "will Primaris replace Oldmarines?" threads will continue to pop up.
If GW had just revamped Marines fro the START of 8E and released the Primaris line as true replacements of old kits, it would have been better. Like ripping off a Band-Aid
Players could still use their oldMarine models as Primaris marines because they would be the "same" units. Intercessors replace Tacticals, etc.
I don't agree that homogenization in this way is good for the game. Eldar having entire squads with the same weapon and equipment designed for a very specific role is a huge part of their flavour. If Primaris Marines follow this same paradigm, you now have that much less differentiation between factions and I really don't like that.
Players could still use their oldMarine models as Primaris marines because they would be the "same" units. Intercessors replace Tacticals, etc.
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What and have Guillimans return result in some sort of Marian reforms analogue? That could have been decent actually.
If they wanted to replace normal marines with lanky marines they should have built up to it better.
They were hinting for editions at geneseed degrading and creating marines getting harder, imagine if after the Great Rift opened geneseed stopped working completely.
Not only does Chaos rampage through the Imperium but humanities greatest warriors are now a dying breed. Some react with glorius but futile last stands, others withdraw into self defence mode preserving themselves at the expense of the Imperium.
Eventually Guilliman fixes the problem with Primaris marines, but by then the chapters are shattered and disorganised. Guilliman undertakes a grand reorganisation as a result.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I don't agree that homogenization in this way is good for the game. Eldar having entire squads with the same weapon and equipment designed for a very specific role is a huge part of their flavour. If Primaris Marines follow this same paradigm, you now have that much less differentiation between factions and I really don't like that.
I never meant to imply homogenization would be good for the faction from an special-snowflake standpoint. Just that it appears like GW wants it that way, and it would speed up the game just a tad.
Say what you will about "taking away uniqueness", but it is hard to argue that it negatively affects balance/ease of play.
Galef wrote: It definitely seems like GW is moving towards more homogenized units.
I am all for this eventual game-state, however my objection is to the method in which GW seems to be implementing the transition: very, VERY slowly with full denial that old options will go away. This has created this almost unbearable "limbo" game-state in which players are unsure of new purchases and "will Primaris replace Oldmarines?" threads will continue to pop up.
I'm trying to take a more philosophical view as a nostalgic marine player...
Right now the game is better than ever, standard marines are fully supported in terms of rules and models and they also have many more units (with way more options) than primaris marines. Rather than worrying about what might be, why not enjoy the current situation?
If GW are planning on phasing out standard marines, why do they keep releasing more codexes with rules for them in, and why do they keep selling them to new players in the Start Collecting! boxes? That's not to say they won't phase them out in the future, but even if they do I'm very glad to have a fully painted army of current models and the full set of 8th edition rules for them.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I don't agree that homogenization in this way is good for the game. Eldar having entire squads with the same weapon and equipment designed for a very specific role is a huge part of their flavour. If Primaris Marines follow this same paradigm, you now have that much less differentiation between factions and I really don't like that.
I never meant to imply homogenization would be good for the faction from an special-snowflake standpoint. Just that it appears like GW wants it that way, and it would speed up the game just a tad.
Say what you will about "taking away uniqueness", but it is hard to argue that it negatively affects balance/ease of play.
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It does but I don't think GW will surpass other companies in that regard considering how bad they are at basics. So getting rid of a selling point in exchange for something they do worse than other companies isn't smart.
Brother Castor wrote: If GW are planning on phasing out standard marines, why do they keep releasing more codexes with rules for them in, and why do they keep selling them to new players in the Start Collecting! boxes? That's not to say they won't phase them out in the future, but even if they do I'm very glad to have a fully painted army of current models and the full set of 8th edition rules for them.
My theory is that GW will continue to release rules of OldMarines, but continue to make those rules sub-par compared to Primaris. Little by little, sales will drop on OldMarine kits, because new players do not want them and old players already have them and that will be all GW needs to justify dropping them from the line.
It will be decided by the players, not GW. But will likely take years to completely happen
Brother Castor wrote: If GW are planning on phasing out standard marines, why do they keep releasing more codexes with rules for them in, and why do they keep selling them to new players in the Start Collecting! boxes? That's not to say they won't phase them out in the future, but even if they do I'm very glad to have a fully painted army of current models and the full set of 8th edition rules for them.
My theory is that GW will continue to release rules of OldMarines, but continue to make those rules sub-par compared to Primaris.
Little by little, sales will drop on OldMarine kits, because new players do not want them and old players already have them and that will be all GW needs to justify dropping them from the line.
It will be decided by the players, not GW. But will likely take years to completely happen
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"continue to make them subpar" makes it sound like they already ARE subpar
creeping-deth87 wrote: I don't agree that homogenization in this way is good for the game. Eldar having entire squads with the same weapon and equipment designed for a very specific role is a huge part of their flavour. If Primaris Marines follow this same paradigm, you now have that much less differentiation between factions and I really don't like that.
This. That's what set Marines and Eldar apart as a tabletop faction, for example. Some Guardians, you'd keep some Dragons around to hit the tank that threatens the troop core, take some reapers behind them to help them kill infantry marching on you, redeploy them as needed with mobile skimmer transports to where needed. Marines, one squad marches up to the obj, doing what it could with special weapons to keep itself safe, punch the tank, scythe down an approaching light infantry squad. I remember back in 4th you could run 5 man units with 2 upgrades, rather than just 10, and with traits make it 2 special weapons. 2 combat squads each with a storm bolter/fist serge, one with 2 meltas, the other 2 flamers. Close range, run and gun, self sufficient to a degree It's just the flavour of the army.
If I just have to take a repulsor and move my Hellblasters to the hard targets and hunker the intercessors down, that doesn't feel like marines to me, whatever Big Blue has to say about his newly scribbled in book or no.
They're not direct competition. In tabletop role OR sales.
And if GW tries to fluffsplain /wave away the old style miniature line to make shelf room/boost sales (which is ultimately what it will come down to), then scale wise then scouts still fit in-they're not fully formed marines and can have a nice niche.
So is this conversation still about Scouts or are we now talking about Neophytes? Because with the new Eliminators having been previewed, it seems to me, that the entire Scout role is now completely covered by their new Primaris colleagues.
Eliminators are really closer to Vindicares than Scouts. Scouts rely on relatively cheap, massed light sniper fire, while Eliminators are a few rare expensive elites firing special ammo.
None of the Primaris options are designed to line up exactly. Some options do better than others but the writing is on the wall. Primaris Marines (the money grab edition) are designed to fill a similar role to older units but at the same time be just different enough that in the future using older models as proxies will be tough.
Melissia wrote:Eliminators are really closer to Vindicares than Scouts. Scouts rely on relatively cheap, massed light sniper fire, while Eliminators are a few rare expensive elites firing special ammo.
The execution may be marginally different, but the role is the same - scout sniper. Where are you getting this specific info on their cost, by the way?
HoundsofDemos wrote:...but at the same time be just different enough that in the future using older models as proxies will be tough.
How so? From what I can see, the Elimiators seem to look remarkably similar to Scout Snipers.
Ginjitzu wrote: The execution may be marginally different, but the role is the same - scout sniper. Where are you getting this specific info on their cost, by the way?
The way they're described. I can't be the only one who actually read the damn blurb, can I?
Ginjitzu wrote: The execution may be marginally different, but the role is the same - scout sniper. Where are you getting this specific info on their cost, by the way?
The way they're described. I can't be the only one who actually read the damn blurb, can I?
"Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."
Maybe I'm spacing out, but I can't see anything about their cost here? Have they released more information elsewhere or are you just guessing?
Compare that to Games Workshop's description of Scout Marines:
"Only once a Scout has proven his courage and skill at arms in a Chapter's Scout Company is he elevated to the rank of battle brother, and inducted into one of the Chapter's Battle Companies."
Which nearly explicitly says "these guys are cheaper pointswise cause they aren't full Marines".
Seems to me that Reivers are effectively being replaced themselves by Infiltrators. Similar but much improved model, infiltrator Bolter can easily count as a bolt carbine, bolt pistol and knife option can easily be converted.
robbienw wrote: Seems to me that Reivers are effectively being replaced themselves by Infiltrators. Similar but much improved model, infiltrator Bolter can easily count as a bolt carbine, bolt pistol and knife option can easily be converted.
Reivers are combat specialists. Infiltrators are snipers.
Phobos armour, Marksman bolt carbines (rapid 1 not Assault 2, hits of 6 automatically hit and also wound) and bolt pistols. They have concealed positions, and better at blocking DS than scouts, but no grav chutes. Funilly enough also have funny helmets, just different than Reiver's ones.
So yeah, Reivers without Heavy Pistols or blades, or chutes/grapnels, but better infiltration, better bolters.
And they're troops. Honestly those are the boys to beat the neophyte scout squads, since with the scrambler that is actually the role Scouts fill on the tabletop, a front line deep strike screening infiltrator
I have always wanted to run my 10th as a battle company layout of stealth op units but had to make do with Scout bikes/assault scouts and scout snipers standing in as the heavy support versions, now one can run 6 Infiltrators, 2 Reivers, several Eliminators as a stealth element to the chapter. and have that supported by further unnumbered Scout teams. Maximum infiltrate.
These are all descriptions of the present though. The question is about the future.
robbienw wrote: Jes Goodwin even said in the last voxcast that they aren’t a replacement or the same thing, and that scouts are still a separate thing extant in 40k.
He did, but that's not the same as saying that they'll still be sold on the GW store, or still featured in Black Library literatture in ten years time.
These are all descriptions of the present though. The question is about the future.
robbienw wrote: Jes Goodwin even said in the last voxcast that they aren’t a replacement or the same thing, and that scouts are still a separate thing extant in 40k.
He did, but that's not the same as saying that they'll still be sold on the GW store, or still featured in Black Library literatture in ten years time.
No but given Jess is the "Visionary behind space marines" his statement might suggest we've got primaris neophytes planned down the pipe.
I mean, even Primaris only chapters have to be recruiting too, and the pre-ultima founding chapters, even if they still are training classic Marines as the Emperor intended, will also be training neophytes on the path to becoming Primaris. The 3 additional implants come only halfway through the process, the Carapace and promotion to full battle brother is still the last part. There ought to be scouts running around with muscle-enhancing spring coils, the embiggening gland and the oh-gak-I-got-shot gland, just without the Black Carapace and any MKX armour.
However, if they do and it sticks to the lore, and if Oldsmarines are slowly going to be phased out across the next decade, I think that would still be fine as long as the lore keeps making sense. I have strong opinions whether they are making sense presently, but so long as they do, and keep making cool minis, that'd be fine.
As a Blood Angel player, seeing them still have Red Thirst hinted at and the potential for The Rage to creep up, gives me some hope at least.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Looks like I was onto something here! I think scouts will be redesigned in the future to be significantly worse than normal marines.
So, we've got an answer on this in Shadowspear. From the Vanguard Marine Mini-Dex:
an accordance with those recent ammendments to the Codex Astartes the tenth company of each chapter should maintain a perminant compliment of 100 Vanguard Marines..."
It doesn’t mean they have replaced the Scouts if that is what you are thinking
As we already know classic marines are still being made in the current dark imperium timeline, scouts still appear in the fluff and rules, and jes goodwin states in the recent voxcast that scouts are still a thing and vanguard do not replace them.
It just means every 10th company now has a permanent complement of vanguard marines.
It does answer the question of what a 10th company in a pure Primaris chapter consists of though, which is good.
robbienw wrote: It doesn’t mean they have replaced the Scouts if that is what you are thinking
As we already know classic marines are still being made in the current dark imperium timeline, scouts still appear in the fluff and rules, and jes goodwin states in the recent voxcast that scouts are still a thing and vanguard do not replace them.
It just means every 10th company now has a permanent complement of vanguard marines.
It does answer the question of what a 10th company in a pure Primaris chapter consists of though, which is good.
yup, never said they where replacing, just we now know how primaris Marines fit into the scout dichotmy. I imagine wave 3 of Primaris Marines then will be the Primaris "elites"and will make up the Primaris 1st company.
Yea and the Giants confirmed that they were not going to trade OBJ and then did just that three days latter.
Companies and organizations lie, people who work for companies lie and employees themselves may be lied to. GW almost had AOS fail because they pulled the rug on the older range, setting and rules to soon. The axe is coming at some point, it is just dropping slowly and GW is saying nice things while swinging it.
buddha wrote: Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.
Wolf Scouts better be worried then...
Wolf Scouts are a straight comparison to Reivers.
They both sit in the Elite slot and suck.
At least Reivers are nice kits to make Wulfen out of.
thing is reivers are, as we now know, a piece of the puzzle. and that scouts have been essentially "supplemented" by an entire range of specialist marines
Stevefamine wrote: I doubt they'll get replaced - but who knows at this point. Scouts will be in the next codex - especially with a Scout character / Telion
Yeah because Characters have never ever in the history of GW been canned. -Cries in Vect-
buddha wrote: Scouts are not fully initiated and formed marines. Reivers are fully formed Primaris so it's not a straight comparison.
Wolf Scouts better be worried then...
Wolf Scouts are a straight comparison to Reivers.
They both sit in the Elite slot and suck.
At least Reivers are nice kits to make Wulfen out of.
How? I'd love Wulfen that don't look like they were designed by someone about to be fired for drinking on the job.
I quite like the Wulfen design, a paint job that doesn't make them look like a monkey face works wonders. I just hate the single point of contact that always breaks.
Primaris Reivers.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/752495.page Wobbly Goblin did great.
