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Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:12:12


Post by: Daedalus81


EDIT: DON'T BOYCOTT - I initially made this post in too aggressive a stance. I apologize for causing the 14th Black Crusade.

I apologize for the grief I may have caused some in responding to this thread.

=========================

Hey-o

Resident White Knight here.

I'm here to tell you that we need to boycott GSC (well, send them a strongly worded letter). For you GSC players that are super excited about this book - you're going to be really angry at me and I get that...
...but if you want to build a better game you need to follow me on this.

This book is insane levels of powerful.

You might think I'm exaggerating. I always recommend people try something before they come to a judgement, but these issues are so clear and present to me that I cannot take that route this time.

I don't need bs posts about selling new models - the bikes are pretty meh, so you're premise is flawed.

I won't go over everything - you can come to your own conclusions here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0

The silver lining? Geoff's commentary is hilarious.

Think I'm a silly person? That's ok, but GW will need to address this book one way or another ASAP or this game is crippled until Sep/Dec. Also a whole lot of people are going to buy a whole lot of models that need nerfing. I'm sure GW won't mind, but it's not what we should support or expect.

Think I'm missing something? Feel free to post it and try to change my mind.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:16:33


Post by: Karol


I mean am sure someone crafty with all those blips and horde units and ton of extra rules could turn the game in to his turn 1 only, but that is hardly insane level. Maybe GSC get a lot better with index units GW missed or tyranids, but that is not for me to judge. Some of their units do seem annoying as hell, but they hardly are the only one army with annoying units.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:20:19


Post by: Yarium


Geoff was wrong; Genestealers and Patriarchs don't get Cult Creeds. Also, the Mental Onslaught also stops doing further mortal wounds if you fail to cause one, which means your opponent "wins" the roll on ties for that power. For a Broodlord to get "instant-kill" on a target, he needs to be up to Ld11, and his opponent needs to be down to Ld5 for there to be no chance at this happening. At Ld6, you need to roll a 1, and they need to roll a 6, but they can still stop you. At Ld7, you need to roll a 1 and they need to roll a 5 or 6, or you need to roll a 2 and they need to roll a 6. At Ld8, things start compounding quickly, and you're unlikely to get more than 3 wounds off the target. A Ld9 you might not even get 1. At Ld10 it's awful.

The book is good, but only so far as Dark Eldar are good. Hey, that's a great bar! I'll be doing backflips if my GSC can be as good as Dark Eldar. But they're not going to break the game, and this kind of post is just screaming about a sky that isn't falling.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:21:43


Post by: Marmatag


I agree actually. Woot, same page for the first time! (i think)

I'm not buying any more GW products until they do something about balance.

It also rankles me that they're increasing the price of paints and start collecting kits. It's a very "old GW" move.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:26:07


Post by: Imateria


You're talking absolute rubbish, the codex looks strong but not particularly so, actual damage output at range can be a problem and turn 1 charges aren't going to happen. They very much look like a glasshammer army that will defintiely hit hard but staying power could be a real problem for them.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:31:04


Post by: Not Online!!!


Now I agree this looks bad, but a boycott?

Wouldn't it be better to remind them to stop doing codexcreep?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:31:41


Post by: Marmatag


 Imateria wrote:
You're talking absolute rubbish, the codex looks strong but not particularly so, actual damage output at range can be a problem and turn 1 charges aren't going to happen. They very much look like a glasshammer army that will defintiely hit hard but staying power could be a real problem for them.


False.

When models are cheap they are durable. Points per wound defines durability. And anything they need to cover can be done with AM.

Also Blips are very, very strong. There's no downside and they deny all DS for *free*.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:33:32


Post by: vaklor4


This is literally the same response people had to Orks supposed power. Howd that work out?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:34:49


Post by: Eldarsif


Regarding OP's post my answer is no: I am not going to boycott.

Also, I've preordered the codex and dice for my collection even though I am not going to collect GSC. Regarding power of codex I will give it a chance and see how enjoyable it is to play against them. If I experience Matt Ward level of tomfoolery in a couple of games I will do what I did back when Matt Ward did tomfoolery: Not play against that particular army. Sure, I probably can't pick and choose in tournaments, but in general play I can play with whomever I want, as can anyone else.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:37:29


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Marmatag wrote:
Also Blips are very, very strong. There's no downside and they deny all DS for *free*.


Did you actually read how the blips work? They're removed at the end of the first movement phase (yours or your opponent's), which means they won't be there when you DS on turn 2, reading, it's not just for kindergarten. Furthermore, the stratagem to move them is restricted to your deployment zone, so you can't even use it to get extra movement or deny anything.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:39:09


Post by: Darsath


 vaklor4 wrote:
This is literally the same response people had to Orks supposed power. Howd that work out?


Speaking of Orks, has anyone got any real experience in how they compete in the big leagues. Are they competitive? Have they been improved from their last codex? Not just in the moving about of power. but are they a more capable army? And how are the 2019 lists adjusting to deal with the Ork lists that are coming out?

Back on topic though, I haven't had much of a chance to read through the Genestealer Cult codex yet, but I see the army as being more of a noob-stomper type of army. It will really wreck face against mid-tier armies, and top tier armies being piloted by less skilled players. I still think that Ynarri-Drukhari and Imperium Soup lists will remain the top 2 lists as they have for months though.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:45:42


Post by: Imateria


 Marmatag wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
You're talking absolute rubbish, the codex looks strong but not particularly so, actual damage output at range can be a problem and turn 1 charges aren't going to happen. They very much look like a glasshammer army that will defintiely hit hard but staying power could be a real problem for them.


False.

When models are cheap they are durable. Points per wound defines durability. And anything they need to cover can be done with AM.

Also Blips are very, very strong. There's no downside and they deny all DS for *free*.

Ugh, you could at least try to understand how their army rules work, instead of spouting off inane nonsense.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:46:12


Post by: Stux


I've pre-ordered some bikes along with the book, because I love the models. Don't care if they're great or not. The pendulum swings.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:47:23


Post by: Daedalus81


 vaklor4 wrote:
This is literally the same response people had to Orks supposed power. Howd that work out?


I considered Orks to be in a good spot. These guys are way beyond that.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:49:39


Post by: EnTyme


The hyperbole on this forum never ceases to amaze me.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:49:44


Post by: Daedalus81


Not Online!!! wrote:
Now I agree this looks bad, but a boycott?

Wouldn't it be better to remind them to stop doing codexcreep?


Money is what speaks. I'm not calling for a full boycott - just GSC. I would also hate for people to buy into what, I think, is a poorly thought out army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 EnTyme wrote:
The hyperbole on this forum never ceases to amaze me.


I am often considered a white knight and I consider myself pretty level headed. Maybe I'm wrong but, disregard at your peril.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:51:35


Post by: Fifty


I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:52:31


Post by: Asmodios


this might be the single most over the top post I've ever seen on dakka (and that's saying a lot)
1. Codex just dropped we have 0 data on how good it will actually be. People were crying about orks (not this bad but bad) and they seem to have settled in well
2. This edition has seen quick faqs and points adjustments. If it is broken it will get fixed quickly

Can we really not wait for a tournament or two before we start calling this the end times of 40k


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:52:34


Post by: Daedalus81


 Yarium wrote:
Geoff was wrong; Genestealers and Patriarchs don't get Cult Creeds. Also, the Mental Onslaught also stops doing further mortal wounds if you fail to cause one, which means your opponent "wins" the roll on ties for that power. For a Broodlord to get "instant-kill" on a target, he needs to be up to Ld11, and his opponent needs to be down to Ld5 for there to be no chance at this happening. At Ld6, you need to roll a 1, and they need to roll a 6, but they can still stop you. At Ld7, you need to roll a 1 and they need to roll a 5 or 6, or you need to roll a 2 and they need to roll a 6. At Ld8, things start compounding quickly, and you're unlikely to get more than 3 wounds off the target. A Ld9 you might not even get 1. At Ld10 it's awful.

The book is good, but only so far as Dark Eldar are good. Hey, that's a great bar! I'll be doing backflips if my GSC can be as good as Dark Eldar. But they're not going to break the game, and this kind of post is just screaming about a sky that isn't falling.



I think it's less about this power and more about all the units and characters on top of traits, relics, and tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Fifty wrote:
I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?


Geoff's video is quite informative. If you go read my older posts about similar sentiments you'll find me on the other side of this argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote:
this might be the single most over the top post I've ever seen on dakka (and that's saying a lot)
1. Codex just dropped we have 0 data on how good it will actually be. People were crying about orks (not this bad but bad) and they seem to have settled in well
2. This edition has seen quick faqs and points adjustments. If it is broken it will get fixed quickly

Can we really not wait for a tournament or two before we start calling this the end times of 40k


1- I didn't cry about Orks.
2- Yes, I agree, but until then it will be a bit of a mess. If GW corrects this in Spring - fantastic. Otherwise it's a LOOONG slog. Additionally, this should not have made it out of play-testing to start, which means a big flaw in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realize that I'm going to take gak for having this position - and I'm happy to be wrong, but I really don't think I am.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 18:57:35


Post by: Darsath


 Fifty wrote:
I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?


Well, I think we all know how to find a copy of the codex before launch. As for playtesting, I'm sure no one here has done much playing with it in the little amount of time it's been available. All in all, though. I'm actually fine with a boycott. Just not sure if this should be the reason for it. It SHOULD be for Games Workshop's business practices or, if it was for how overpowered stuff was, their hilariously inconsistent balancing through 8th would be a better reason. The GSC codex doesn't have the hallmarks of an overpowered codex, but it does look like a stomper codex. I'm not sure which is worse.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:01:25


Post by: Vaktathi


I suspect that, even if everything said about this book is as bad as its being made out to be, given broken books from previous editions, not much would be new about this, it's not like we haven't had insanely broken armies in other editions. Likewise, we have armies like GK that are so bad you wonder if anyone buys them, but GW still doesnt do much to fix them despite the sales pinch. Sales of rules likewise are a tertiary revenue stream, models are their primary product and source of income.


Unfortunately, I suspect anyone maintaining a boycott until GW addresses balance is going to be waiting forever. Many have crashed out over balance issues over many editions.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:01:26


Post by: Marmatag


Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:06:11


Post by: Asmodios


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
Geoff was wrong; Genestealers and Patriarchs don't get Cult Creeds. Also, the Mental Onslaught also stops doing further mortal wounds if you fail to cause one, which means your opponent "wins" the roll on ties for that power. For a Broodlord to get "instant-kill" on a target, he needs to be up to Ld11, and his opponent needs to be down to Ld5 for there to be no chance at this happening. At Ld6, you need to roll a 1, and they need to roll a 6, but they can still stop you. At Ld7, you need to roll a 1 and they need to roll a 5 or 6, or you need to roll a 2 and they need to roll a 6. At Ld8, things start compounding quickly, and you're unlikely to get more than 3 wounds off the target. A Ld9 you might not even get 1. At Ld10 it's awful.

The book is good, but only so far as Dark Eldar are good. Hey, that's a great bar! I'll be doing backflips if my GSC can be as good as Dark Eldar. But they're not going to break the game, and this kind of post is just screaming about a sky that isn't falling.



I think it's less about this power and more about all the units and characters on top of traits, relics, and tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Fifty wrote:
I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?


Geoff's video is quite informative. If you go read my older posts about similar sentiments you'll find me on the other side of this argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote:
this might be the single most over the top post I've ever seen on dakka (and that's saying a lot)
1. Codex just dropped we have 0 data on how good it will actually be. People were crying about orks (not this bad but bad) and they seem to have settled in well
2. This edition has seen quick faqs and points adjustments. If it is broken it will get fixed quickly

Can we really not wait for a tournament or two before we start calling this the end times of 40k


1- I didn't cry about Orks.
2- Yes, I agree, but until then it will be a bit of a mess. If GW corrects this in Spring - fantastic. Otherwise it's a LOOONG slog. Additionally, this should not have made it out of play-testing to start, which means a big flaw in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realize that I'm going to take gak for having this position - and I'm happy to be wrong, but I really don't think I am.


Ok so once again your data for them being stupidly broken is one persons video?
Also GSC originally didnt make it out of playtesting.... you know where they test it and collect actual data... It got delayed and literally just dropped. So once again you keep saying that you would be "happy to be wrong" yet you are calling for a nerf and dismissing people with 0 actual data to show that GSC is some issue


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:08:40


Post by: mokoshkana


 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.
Wow, GSC can ignore bubble wrapping too!?!?!?

40k is now officially broken #ChickenLittle


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:10:22


Post by: Daedalus81


 mokoshkana wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.
Wow, GSC can ignore bubble wrapping too!?!?!?

40k is now officially broken #ChickenLittle


Given the other elements of the army - they effectively can.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:13:11


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Having played several games against Aberrants and Abominants I'm pretty sure that's not happening. They're nasty, for sure, and if a squad of them gets into melee with a Castellan it's probably toast, especially if the Abominant gets in there with them.

Of course, that's a 400 point package that will need another 2-300 points worth of support to actually get in position and pull off that charge, not to mention the CP investment.

Seems about right.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:16:17


Post by: Tyel


Darsath wrote:
The GSC codex doesn't have the hallmarks of an overpowered codex, but it does look like a stomper codex. I'm not sure which is worse.


This is potentially the issue.
I'm not sure how GSC is going to do versus our Aeldari and Imperial soup overlords.
But if everything works out, I can see you crushing people while they have very little chance to react. Sure it won't be turn 1 - but it all happening on turn 2 isn't going to make much difference.

*Screen better!* will be the cry - but there are lots of tools to efficiently deal with screens.

But then I don't know if thats dramatically different to a gunline rolling hot.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:17:49


Post by: Daedalus81


Asmodios wrote:

Ok so once again your data for them being stupidly broken is one persons video?
Also GSC originally didnt make it out of playtesting.... you know where they test it and collect actual data... It got delayed and literally just dropped. So once again you keep saying that you would be "happy to be wrong" yet you are calling for a nerf and dismissing people with 0 actual data to show that GSC is some issue


Ok, just have a conversation with me for a moment.

I get that having data is good. I agree - people need to play games. This has been my core tenant for the longest time. But this is the first time I have been able to clearly see where some things are going to be very, very silly.

This is an army that has:
- Easy access to CP
- Cheap, effective chaff
- Solid psychic powers
- Blisteringly good characters

It is stupidly trivial to appear within 3" for 2 CP and 160 points with 20D6 S3 autohits. And whatever doesn't survive takes on 2 WS3 S4 rending attacks and a chainsword attack. And this is the tip of the iceberg.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:

But then I don't know if thats dramatically different to a gunline rolling hot.


The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:24:56


Post by: Not Online!!!


The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.


A gsc player can only hide half of his army.

The other half is blips turned around at your first shooting phase.

However he still has a massive deployment advantage since he can change what units are under a blib and is not bound by that.
He only has to specify which units are underground / arrive via deepstrike.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:30:16


Post by: Asmodios


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Asmodios wrote:

Ok so once again your data for them being stupidly broken is one persons video?
Also GSC originally didnt make it out of playtesting.... you know where they test it and collect actual data... It got delayed and literally just dropped. So once again you keep saying that you would be "happy to be wrong" yet you are calling for a nerf and dismissing people with 0 actual data to show that GSC is some issue


Ok, just have a conversation with me for a moment.

I get that having data is good. I agree - people need to play games. This has been my core tenant for the longest time. But this is the first time I have been able to clearly see where some things are going to be very, very silly.

This is an army that has:
- Easy access to CP
- Cheap, effective chaff
- Solid psychic powers
- Blisteringly good characters

It is stupidly trivial to appear within 3" for 2 CP and 160 points with 20D6 S3 autohits. And whatever doesn't survive takes on 2 WS3 S4 rending attacks and a chainsword attack. And this is the tip of the iceberg.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:

But then I don't know if thats dramatically different to a gunline rolling hot.


The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.

ok so what i just read is that there is a codex that seems to be good and has a wombo combo to kill a character and because of this we shouldn't wait for data and instead should nuke now and ask questions later..... hmmmmm this sounds oddly familiar..... o yeah orks are a good dex with lots of good combos and people were claiming that the lota wombo combo was the end times.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:30:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


No. I shall do no such thing.

They’re my army. First out the gate for me in 2nd Ed, and my chosen force to get me back in the full hobby.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:31:05


Post by: Marmatag


What this codex highlights is the need for a fundamental revision to the command point system.

CP are the new "free stuff." Some armies just get it by existing, some armies don't. Tying CP to force orgs just further rewards armies that already have excellent points to wounds ratios.

3CP to get a guaranteed charge. Ok. Fine. 3CP out of 10 is a big deal. 3CP out of 15+? Nah.

I already have the models to abuse the ever living crap out of this codex with an allied force to my Nids. The biggest weakness to my Tyranids list was the delivery system for Genestealers. As Kraken, i could move them quickly and hope to cross the board. Now i can mitigate that entirely with Genestealers. I only need 2 good charges in a game. This is very good for me. I'm not happy about the balance in 8th though.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:34:44


Post by: timetowaste85


 Marmatag wrote:
I agree actually. Woot, same page for the first time! (i think)

I'm not buying any more GW products until they do something about balance.

It also rankles me that they're increasing the price of paints and start collecting kits. It's a very "old GW" move.


It is not. At least with the paints. GW does a ton of “how to” videos that they don’t charge for, a painting app that demonstrates paint schemes, employs Duncan, etc etc. We don’t pay for those; except we do, in the cost of the paints. You actually pay Duncan’s salary by buying paints. There are a ton of free paint add-ons. If you’re using those add-one, you’re likely buying GW paint. And thus paying for those add-one. But Duncan and the other guys likely get salary bonuses/raises...and that’s where the $0.25 hike comes from. 100% fine with the prices on paints.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:34:49


Post by: Daedalus81


Not Online!!! wrote:
The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.


A gsc player can only hide half of his army.

The other half is blips turned around at your first shooting phase.

However he still has a massive deployment advantage since he can change what units are under a blib and is not bound by that.
He only has to specify which units are underground / arrive via deepstrike.


The blips just compound the other issues. It might not be so bad if the half they could hide wasn't so inexpensive and deadly. It might not be so bad if it wasn't a dead ringer to just pop up within 3" in an army that laughs at CP a bit more than most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No. I shall do no such thing.

They’re my army. First out the gate for me in 2nd Ed, and my chosen force to get me back in the full hobby.


And so you might be a little to close to this to see the issue. It won't be pretty being the top dog with a potentially broken codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
What this codex highlights is the need for a fundamental revision to the command point system.

CP are the new "free stuff." Some armies just get it by existing, some armies don't. Tying CP to force orgs just further rewards armies that already have excellent points to wounds ratios.

3CP to get a guaranteed charge. Ok. Fine. 3CP out of 10 is a big deal. 3CP out of 15+? Nah.

I already have the models to abuse the ever living crap out of this codex with an allied force to my Nids. The biggest weakness to my Tyranids list was the delivery system for Genestealers. As Kraken, i could move them quickly and hope to cross the board. Now i can mitigate that entirely with Genestealers. I only need 2 good charges in a game. This is very good for me. I'm not happy about the balance in 8th though.


I agree - if we moved to some fixed CP system where it wasn't possible for this army to pull of 3" deepstrikes and double shoot multiple times per game (and even as I focus on this particular mechanic there is so much more) then it would be much more reasonable.

That is the only hope I have of this being not a disaster.




Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:39:08


Post by: Umbros



Ahhh a new book and a new 'x army is OP' thread.

Why not actually wait until the book is released before making a judgement? There are limits to what can be tested in theory/


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:41:21


Post by: Daedalus81


Umbros wrote:

Ahhh a new book and a new 'x army is OP' thread.

Why not actually wait until the book is released before making a judgement? There are limits to what can be tested in theory/


I would ask that you not simply read the subject line. Please read my posts thoroughly and watch the available video on the book from Geoff linked on the first page.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:42:41


Post by: BroodSpawn


So, when are people going to boycott Imperial Knights? Or the Blood Angels codex? Or the Guard?

I've seen some things on GSC this last week but wow, the hyperbole on display is shocking. The book passed external playtest (which matters more than you may care about), internal playtest and development and had to be reworked to factor in ongoing beta development of the core rules. Calling it OP before the book is in the hands of players, even if it looks as good on a wounds/pts level as Guardsmen, is frankly ridiculous and makes me question the supposed 'skill' of these 'tournament' players


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:47:53


Post by: the_scotsman


 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.


That would be pretty funny, as by my math the absolute maximum damage one aberrant could possibly do on a charge given PERFECT rolling is 24.

2A base

Aberrant nearby to make them explodes on nat 6s to hit

Flat 3 damage

All hits are 6s, all wound, all do damage.

fight again, all hits are 6s, all wound, all do damage.

Looks like the odds for that are... 0.2%?

Looks like slightly better odds than dealing 24 damage to a knight with 4 lascannon shots. More investment of aura characters and use of stratagems I guess.

*Shrug?*


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:50:27


Post by: jifel


The codex has not come out. Rules mistakes were made in the codex review you cited. You have not played a game with these rules yet. You really think that spending 3 CP for what amounts to a 3d6 charge is broken? See bloodletters doing it for 1 CP. Wounds are cheap and that's durability? Orks are the same points as Acolytes with higher toughness and easy access to a 5++. The 2 CP strat to deepstrike 3" away prevents charging, by the way. You want to survive a bunch of S3 flamers? Bring T4+ models with an armor save. Or, use a screen disposable enough that you will happily trade it for the 160 point unit they use to remove it. Because that flamer unit of doom that you're talking about isn't going to kill a 5 man Tactical squad standing next to a tree. GSC do look strong, I won't pretend they aren't, but lets not claim that they are so OP that they will kill a game that survived Ynnari, Smash captains and the Castellan when we haven't even seen them on the table.

If they were so OP that they ruin competitive balance, then the playtesters and excellent players who make their name finding broken combos would have noticed it.

EDIT: I removed some personal insults about the OPs intelligence, that doesn't really help my case. Try it before you say its broken.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:50:42


Post by: Daedalus81


 BroodSpawn wrote:
So, when are people going to boycott Imperial Knights? Or the Blood Angels codex? Or the Guard?

I've seen some things on GSC this last week but wow, the hyperbole on display is shocking. The book passed external playtest (which matters more than you may care about), internal playtest and development and had to be reworked to factor in ongoing beta development of the core rules. Calling it OP before the book is in the hands of players, even if it looks as good on a wounds/pts level as Guardsmen, is frankly ridiculous and makes me question the supposed 'skill' of these 'tournament' players


Not comparable, but we'll see what comes out in the wash, I guess.

I would like to understand why you think IK or BA are broken as stand-alone codexes. And why do you think they're on the same level of this codex?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:51:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


GSC are categorically not a Win Button. At all.

Our infantry dies to a stiff breeze for a start, so holding objectives isn’t going to be a walk in the park.

Yes. Our characters are quite snacky. Shame they’re pretty much walking around in their pants when it comes to protection

Kelermorph? If he shoots at an enemy character, it is liable to be on the fatal side of ‘ouch, I’m bleeding’. But if you let him within pistol range of your characters, that’s entirely on you. You know he’s deadly. You know what I’m likely angling after with him. So make it hard. Bubble wrap them. And don’t come crying to me if you’re Gung-Ho ‘I usually take it in the face and ask for more’ character tries it and winds up Brown Bread.

Yes, I do have a couple of Snipers which are rather nice. But they’re also a FoC slot all to themselves. Each one I take means I can’t take something else. So don’t expect to see multiples of them.

Play to objectives, rather than Paper/Scissors/Rock-To-Face. Adapt to my army’s strengths, and learn my weaknesses (everything is quite squelchy). If you come into a game against GSC with the opinion that you’re halfway to losing already? That also, is on you.

Forget alpha strike attempts against me. Chances are I can use Blips, Deepstrike and some judiciously applied CPs to avoid much in the way of Turn1 carnage.

Where you can, make GSC go first, having deployed into cover yourself. Don’t give me the second player turn. That plays to my early game strengths, and of course gives me the chance to have the last laugh on objectives.

You know our capabilities, so you know what our broad strategy is likely to be. Our perks make that near inevitable. That is an advantage. So use it.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 19:56:20


Post by: Loafing


 Daedalus81 wrote:

I'm here to tell you that we need to boycott GSC. For you GSC players that are super excited about this book - you're going to be really angry at me and I get that...
...but if you want to build a better game you need to follow me on this.


Are you sure this isn't the start of "8.5"?

7e Necrons were insane as they were the first 7.5 codex with decursion.

But once more codices got decursion they became more reasonable.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:00:51


Post by: Eldarsif


Genestealer Cult players wait nearly 2 years for a codex. Finally comes out and they are asked(almost demanded) to boycott it. At this point I can't help but chuckle at the misfortune of GSC players.

I am personally just going to wait and see.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:01:38


Post by: Loafing


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Yes. Our characters are quite snacky. Shame they’re pretty much walking around in their pants when it comes to protection


5++ (some with 4++?) With a +1 to invulnerable save tactic.
And a 4+ Unquestioning Loyality to pass the wound.

(Followed by Locus who UL on a 2+, who is a character so can in turn UL it away) with a 1CP stratagem to recover d3 W

So you get:
5++/4++ then either a 4+ UL or a 2+ UL who in turns UL on a 4+.

You're not as squishy as you're making yourself out to be.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:02:36


Post by: Daedalus81


 jifel wrote:
What kind of drooling entitled moron is so self-important that they think they know whats best for the game, without playing a game with the rules in question?


I made this post with the understanding that it would receive criticism, but could you take it down a notch?

The codex has not come out. Rules mistakes were made in the codex review you cited. You have not played a game with these rules yet.


Those mistakes are irrelevant to my perspective so far.

You really think that spending 3 CP for what amounts to a 3d6 charge is broken? See bloodletters doing it for 1 CP.


It's not just a 3D6 charge. It's a 9" charge with +3 in some cases.

Wounds are cheap and that's durability? Orks are the same points as Acolytes with higher toughness and easy access to a 5++.


Orks do not carry hand flamers for 1 point. Their 2 attacks also do not have rend.

The 2 CP strat to deepstrike 3" away prevents charging, by the way. You want to survive a bunch of S3 flamers? Bring T4+ models with an armor save.


Not everyone has those. 20D6 S3 = 8 dead marines - that's 104 points and possibly a couple of morale checks. Or I could just come in with 5 demo charges and 15 hand flamers - that's 12 dead marines.

Or, use a screen disposable enough that you will happily trade it for the 160 point unit they use to remove it.


Also pretty easily removed by dakka fexes if you wish.

Because that flamer unit of doom that you're talking about isn't going to kill a 5 man Tactical squad standing next to a tree.


If those marines are in cover then they aren't screening very well.

If they were so OP that they ruin competitive balance, then the playtesters and excellent players who make their name finding broken combos would have noticed it.


I have respect for them. I have trust that GW will eventually fix issues that need fixing. I just find this situation to be a bit further beyond the pale and that it needs attention sooner rather than later.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:04:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


With regard to Undying Loyalty. Can’t imagine what the answer to that might be.

I mean, one could shoot up any bodyguard units I suppose. But that’s just crazy talk. I mean, it’s not as if you have to chew through said bodyguard units in the first place just to reliably target the characters. What’s next? Dogs loving snow?

Oh I’ll have a Locus for every character will I? Eating up further FoC slots, just to keep A.N.Other up and about?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:06:29


Post by: Daedalus81


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With regard to Undying Loyalty. Can’t imagine what the answer to that might be.

I mean, one could shoot up any bodyguard units I suppose. But that’s just crazy talk. I mean, it’s not as if you have to chew through said bodyguard units in the first place just to reliably target the characters. What’s next? Dogs loving snow?

Oh I’ll have a Locus for every character will I? Eating up further FoC slots, just to keep A.N.Other up and about?


I'm not sure what point you're addressing here?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:10:28


Post by: Fifty


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would ask that you not simply read the subject line. Please read my posts thoroughly and watch the available video on the book from Geoff linked on the first page.


You talk about that video as if no-one else has watched it. Geoff gave us a really good insight, but he also got a lot wrong.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:11:25


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Just the general ‘sky is not falling, relax a bit’ point?

Undying Loyalty is nice. But all you need to do is bump off surrounding, very squishy, infantry before going after the character. Which you need to do in most cases anyway.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:13:47


Post by: Daedalus81


 Fifty wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would ask that you not simply read the subject line. Please read my posts thoroughly and watch the available video on the book from Geoff linked on the first page.


You talk about that video as if no-one else has watched it. Geoff gave us a really good insight, but he also got a lot wrong.


What things other than cult benefits for Patriach and GS did he miss? I'm happy to be corrected.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:14:23


Post by: the_scotsman


GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:14:51


Post by: Daedalus81


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just the general ‘sky is not falling, relax a bit’ point?

Undying Loyalty is nice. But all you need to do is bump off surrounding, very squishy, infantry before going after the character. Which you need to do in most cases anyway.


I've not really considered undying loyalty yet. There has been a lot to process and the layers of this army is pretty deep. My concerns have been elsewhere.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:15:51


Post by: An Actual Englishman


I couldn't agree more.

GSC seem absolutely broken.

Geoff's commentary is hilarious and I love how many times he says 'auto include'.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:15:57


Post by: Eldarsif


Just the general ‘sky is not falling, relax a bit’ point?


Not until every GSC army has been burned and their owners beat up for playing OP armies. That's at least the message I am getting from people. But hey, better you than us who play other armies.

Although truth be told no one will listen to boycotts like these. At best this thread will serve as a forum for people to vent while the rest of the Warhammer community goes out, buys models, and tests stuff. Then in a month or two, depending on the results, this thread might be resurrected under a new title or those who cried "sky is falling" will be strangely absent. So far the split has been 50/50 with every new codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo.


I am actually most curious about this force multiplier as I have found GW doesn't really take soup much into account if we are to judge existing soups.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:17:24


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:
GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.


Some armies will have tools to deal with them, but I am concerned with those outside that relatively small bubble. It's just not a good dynamic for the game as a whole.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:22:33


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.


Some armies will have tools to deal with them, but I am concerned with those outside that relatively small bubble. It's just not a good dynamic for the game as a whole.



If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:23:16


Post by: Daedalus81


 Eldarsif wrote:


Not until every GSC army has been burned and their owners beat up for playing OP armies. That's at least the message I am getting from people. But hey, better you than us who play other armies.

Although truth be told no one will listen to boycotts like these. At best this thread will serve as a forum for people to vent while the rest of the Warhammer community goes out, buys models, and tests stuff. Then in a month or two, depending on the results, this thread might be resurrected under a new title or those who cried "sky is falling" will be strangely absent. So far the split has been 50/50 with every new codex.


You're making a straw man out of the situation and ignoring what I believe to be pretty serious problems.

I'm not here to take down GSC players. I have no dog in that fight.

I often make posts similar to yours, but now I am not. Why? Have I suddenly lost my mind? Do I suddenly hate GW?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:24:40


Post by: Darsath


This thread has a lot of hyperbole. But don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people being hyperbolic and passionate. These type of conversations bring a smile to my face. I think my issue is that there are people here who are only not interested in any kind of discussion. Daedalus, I'm not sure what video you are referencing. And Eldarsif, there's no need to respond with your own hyperbole if your issue is the hyperbole itself. If not, then for sure a strawman won't help.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:27:10


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:

If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.


Well, I won't officially do that until I *do* see them on the table, but I'm not confident.

In either case Warhammer becomes only the things that can deal with GSC. That's not good for the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darsath wrote:
This thread has a lot of hyperbole. But don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people being hyperbolic and passionate. These type of conversations bring a smile to my face. I think my issue is that there are people here who are only not interested in any kind of discussion. Daedalus, I'm not sure what video you are referencing. And Eldarsif, there's no need to respond with your own hyperbole if your issue is the hyperbole itself. If not, then for sure a strawman won't help.


It's a good 3 hours-ish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0

It's not the whole perfect view into the book, but there was enough there for me to become imminently concerned.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:29:00


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:


Not until every GSC army has been burned and their owners beat up for playing OP armies. That's at least the message I am getting from people. But hey, better you than us who play other armies.

Although truth be told no one will listen to boycotts like these. At best this thread will serve as a forum for people to vent while the rest of the Warhammer community goes out, buys models, and tests stuff. Then in a month or two, depending on the results, this thread might be resurrected under a new title or those who cried "sky is falling" will be strangely absent. So far the split has been 50/50 with every new codex.


You're making a straw man out of the situation and ignoring what I believe to be pretty serious problems.

I'm not here to take down GSC players. I have no dog in that fight.

I often make posts similar to yours, but now I am not. Why? Have I suddenly lost my mind? Do I suddenly hate GW?


No, you're having a very strong emotional reaction to what you perceive to be a new broken combo, in particular I'm guessing the 20 handflamer +2CP to get within 3" and shoot stratagem.

I think the element people (myself included) might have been missing with that combo is that the unit can't then charge. So in order to gain 70 S3 AP- hits, you're giving up 13 S4 AP- hits, 10 S3 Ap- hits, and 27 S4 Ap-1 rending hits (50 total that you would otherwise have, spending similar amounts of CP to guarantee the charge).

Good trade against chaff, though of course it does cost CP, and the GSC codex has *a lot* more ways to buff those close combat attacks than they do ways to buff those handflamer attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.


Well, I won't officially do that until I *do* see them on the table, but I'm not confident.

In either case Warhammer becomes only the things that can deal with GSC. That's not good for the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darsath wrote:
This thread has a lot of hyperbole. But don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people being hyperbolic and passionate. These type of conversations bring a smile to my face. I think my issue is that there are people here who are only not interested in any kind of discussion. Daedalus, I'm not sure what video you are referencing. And Eldarsif, there's no need to respond with your own hyperbole if your issue is the hyperbole itself. If not, then for sure a strawman won't help.


It's a good 3 hours-ish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0

It's not the whole perfect view into the book, but there was enough there for me to become imminently concerned.


What is "officially" calling for a boycott, if this thread titled "boycott GSC" is non-official?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:31:54


Post by: mokoshkana


 Daedalus81 wrote:
In either case Warhammer becomes only the things that can deal with GSC. That's not good for the game.
I feel incredibly confident that the game will continue to feature armies that aren't only GSC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
What is "officially" calling for a boycott, if this thread titled "boycott GSC" is non-official?
They're officially on "Double Secret Probation"


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:36:50


Post by: Eyjio


Are you seriously calling for a boycott based on one review of a book which isn’t even out? Come on, cooler heads prevail. I would put money that they won’t dethrone aedari soup on the top tables.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:38:05


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:

No, you're having a very strong emotional reaction to what you perceive to be a new broken combo, in particular I'm guessing the 20 handflamer +2CP to get within 3" and shoot stratagem.

I think the element people (myself included) might have been missing with that combo is that the unit can't then charge. So in order to gain 70 S3 AP- hits, you're giving up 13 S4 AP- hits, 10 S3 Ap- hits, and 27 S4 Ap-1 rending hits (50 total that you would otherwise have, spending similar amounts of CP to guarantee the charge).

Good trade against chaff, though of course it does cost CP, and the GSC codex has *a lot* more ways to buff those close combat attacks than they do ways to buff those handflamer attacks.


Yea, maybe, though I don't usually find myself to be terribly bi-polar.

I'm aware of no charging after, but it's such a pittance of an investment. 180 for 15 flamers and 5 demos. That kills a gak ton of stuff very easily.

My mental break occurred after that when I dove into the rest of the book.

What is "officially" calling for a boycott, if this thread titled "boycott GSC" is non-official?


A conversation starter - and a potential solution should things be as they appear to me.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:41:05


Post by: Tyel


If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:42:35


Post by: Daedalus81


Eyjio wrote:
are you seriously calling for a boycott based on one review of a book which isn’t even out? Come on, cooler heads prevail. I would put money that they won’t dethrone aedari soup on the top tables.


No one ever actually follows a boycott, but, I feel like the issues are in a place where stirring up a conversation about one is sufficient to get people to notice the issues.

Unfortunately we might be stuck looking at this codex for a while since it won't feature at LVO and if it becomes a sleeper hit we're in for a long slog.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.


Yea, but not out of cycle (I suppose anything is possible). It won't make March so September is the first cut...and then December.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:45:27


Post by: tneva82


Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.


Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:46:31


Post by: Wayniac


Apparently, the Brood Brother rule for GSC contains a fix for soup: Brood Brother detachments only give you half CP and they don't get any relevant army traits (so no IG doctrines). As well as being limited to 1 per GSC detachment.

With luck, this will be something that GW applies in some fashion (any detachment that doesn't have your Warlord?) to everyone come the Big FAQ 3. It's clean, simple and nips soup lists in the bud by giving a larger incentive to stay as a mono faction without completely removing soup


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:46:32


Post by: Daedalus81


tneva82 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.


Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.


Despite my current position - I disagree strongly.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:46:54


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There’s also no allowance for how CA18 changed things up.

Only scoring objectives at the end of the battle round is a pain when your main objective holders are squishy. And in terms of attrition, I’ll want to be bagging my VPs mainly in the early turns. Once again, doing what you can to give GSC the first turn will be a pain, as you get to react to me.

Yes, for 1CP I can keep my objectives hidden. That certainly helps. But for anyone familiar with the general Tactical Objectives, it won’t be too hard to make an educated guess as to what I’m up to.

Me? I think my plan from before Codex info was known is looking even better. Three Manticores allied in. That’s some decent ‘first turn nope’ for me to play with. Perhaps not the most reliable, but if all three gang up on a particular target (oh hi, allied Imperial Knight) I should be able to deliver a dolorous blow to the unsuspecting from the get go. Or I can look to mess up Infantry units to help reduce your Ob Sec options. Depends what I find works when experimenting with the army.

Of course, I will need to get as good as possible with them. Whilst they bring some serious firepower, they do eat up points somewhat - points which may prove better spent on even more infantry.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:47:41


Post by: Sorcererbob


Regarding the call to action, boycotting GSC sends the wrong message. Boycotting GSC leads to GW believing that GSC is a minor, unpopular army and leads to it being discontinued. You need to find another way to communicate that you want balance. If this were a typically-popular army that suddenly trended flat when it should trend up, that may cause GW to speculate.

The best way to communicate your desires is to communicate your desires.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:51:20


Post by: Daedalus81


Wayniac wrote:
Apparently, the Brood Brother rule for GSC contains a fix for soup: Brood Brother detachments only give you half CP and they don't get any relevant army traits (so no IG doctrines). As well as being limited to 1 per GSC detachment.

With luck, this will be something that GW applies in some fashion (any detachment that doesn't have your Warlord?) to everyone come the Big FAQ 3. It's clean, simple and nips soup lists in the bud by giving a larger incentive to stay as a mono faction.


50 / 50 shot. I have the feeling that's only because of the unique nature of the army here since they're in-codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorcererbob wrote:
Regarding the call to action, boycotting GSC sends the wrong message. Boycotting GSC leads to GW believing that GSC is a minor, unpopular army and leads to it being discontinued. You need to find another way to communicate that you want balance. If this were a typically-popular army that suddenly trended flat when it should trend up, that may cause GW to speculate.

The best way to communicate your desires is to communicate your desires.


Point well taken - I agree. I don't expect anyone to go through with any severe sort of boycott, but I should have impressed the need to communicate more. Thank you.

I have changed the title and first post to reflect this.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:57:37


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Wayniac wrote:
Apparently, the Brood Brother rule for GSC contains a fix for soup: Brood Brother detachments only give you half CP and they don't get any relevant army traits (so no IG doctrines). As well as being limited to 1 per GSC detachment.

With luck, this will be something that GW applies in some fashion (any detachment that doesn't have your Warlord?) to everyone come the Big FAQ 3. It's clean, simple and nips soup lists in the bud by giving a larger incentive to stay as a mono faction without completely removing soup


It's fairly irrelevant since most of the time they'll be taking a Spearhead-type detachment, which will still be rounded up to 1 CP. It just puts a damper on them running the loyal 32 that they don't need anymore anyways.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:59:50


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Their entire army can deep strike. The blips mean your deployment is always perfectly countered to your opponent. Characters have effectively double wounds thanks to bodyguard ability. Characters have multiple abilities other factions only dream of, for pocket change cost. Acolytes dropped 4 or 5 ppm to 7 which is insane. Hand flamer acolytes for 8ppm is bonkers. Every faction wants the Kelermorph without including his buffing abilities. Those awesome characters that you want to take and are super cheap? They synergize perfectly. So perfectly they allow your Patriarch to cast a power that instagibs a Knight. The Patriarch is a monster for his cost.

The hardest thing a GSC player has to do at the list building stage it seems like, is decide which awesome units he wants to take and to ensure that he doesn't take too many of those incredible characters (for headhunter/kill points).

As I watched Geoff's review I couldn't help but compare the stats and abilities of these units to those of my own. In every comparison those units of GSC are better than the equivalent of my own. Boys vs Acolytes? Acolytes better. Nobs vs Aberrants? Aberrants better. Any Ork buggy vs GSC buggy? GSC buggy better. I have no units that can delete a character at will for 60pts. I can't think of a faction that does. I can't think of a faction that has a unit that has an anti deep strike aura, a leadership buff ability and an advance/charge buff for what, 60 pts? Less? Maybe one of those things for that cost but not all three. Even the Abominant is a joke and he's been increased in points coat (but is still way too cheap)!

It seems that GSC simply take what other units do and do it better. Then they have a Vect equivalent. Which is without question the most powerful stratagem in the game and I believe something that all factions should have access to.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 20:59:52


Post by: Just Tony


There will never be a boycott of GW product. Look at prices on the product currently. It's at that price because no matter how many cries for boycotting or player bleed out we have, we still have people who will shill out whatever GW asks for. As long as those players exist, AND we keep onboarding more, there will never be a meaningful GW boycott. All that will happen is a modest 10-30% sales drop spread and the whales picking the tab back up when prices are raised again.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:01:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Depends what else they bring.

Could be your main Detachment will be determined either by who your Warlord is, or how many points your Detachments are. So Loyal 32, being Bugger All Points only provide 50% CPs.

Who knows? All I know is that feedback is the key.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:01:23


Post by: Arson Fire


Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:09:35


Post by: mokoshkana


Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?
Don't bring logic into this discussion!!!


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:10:17


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


They’re nasty on the defensive, and can be squrited whilst in combat tool.

Essentially, for very Points your making a decent close combat unit much nastier, to the point where there’s little reason not to take the Hand Flamers.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:14:31


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 mokoshkana wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?
Don't bring logic into this discussion!!!

Hardly logic. We're talking about two different armies so that means different context and last I checked the stats on Acolytes and Termagants is a liiiitle different?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:17:41


Post by: Eldarsif


You're making a straw man out of the situation and ignoring what I believe to be pretty serious problems.

I'm not here to take down GSC players. I have no dog in that fight.

I often make posts similar to yours, but now I am not. Why? Have I suddenly lost my mind? Do I suddenly hate GW?


I do admit I am being a bit facetious(although at this time I do not know where the hyperbole meta is so I make do with my own), but at the same time I find it a bit weird that up until this point it is suddenly GSC that breaks the camel's back? Why not when IK came out or when Drukhari came out? What about the panic around the Ork codex? What about the Matt Ward codexes in 5th?

Maybe I am just naturally chill, or maybe because I am a sagittarius - who knows - but I am relatively content with waiting to see how the GSC plays. If it ends up being ridiculously OP then that will hurt GW in the long run and tourneys, but for people who have the capacity to say no to a fight and play with chill people most of this can be averted.

So I do understand the panic if you are a hardcore tourney player. This probably has the chance of upending the meta. For everybody else this is mostly a non-issue.

Personally I am just looking forward to see how and if everything changes after the codex drops.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then they have a Vect equivalent. Which is without question the most powerful stratagem in the game and I believe something that all factions should have access to.


I agree with this, strangely enough. Once per game for 3CP you could nullify one stratagem. Risk and reward and all that.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:21:25


Post by: Sherrypie


Just keep calm, fellas. Sky ain't falling nor are the Cults going to suddenly start capsizing every game anywhere ever.

I mean, 70 flamer shots barely kills 5 of my plague marines. After which they stand there and get shot to pieces in retaliation? Wuppee.
That psychic onslaught thingamabob is pretty rad on the Patriarch, but it's not oneshotting Knights. Basically in that scenario you're just rolling off, Patriarch at +1 but he has to get more than the opposition. Odds are you get a few wounds in. Mind control on knights though, that's tasty.

Just take a breather and relax, there's no use getting worked up over hype before trying. Tabletop Tactics released a fun outing just now on Youtube, the Cult did pretty well but was likewise cut to ribbons by the end of the game. Who'd have though light infantry gets shredded by massed firepower from Scions and the like, eh?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:22:40


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Their entire army can deep strike.


No, they can't, they are still bound by the same restrictions as everyone else on what percentage of their army can be put in deep strike. I certainly haven't seen anything that changes that.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The blips mean your deployment is always perfectly countered to your opponent.


Except for those pesky objectives that might give you a decent idea where they'll be going.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Acolytes dropped 4 or 5 ppm to 7 which is insane. Hand flamer acolytes for 8ppm is bonkers. Every faction wants the Kelermorph without including his buffing abilities. Those awesome characters that you want to take and are super cheap? They synergize perfectly. So perfectly they allow your Patriarch to cast a power that instagibs a Knight. The Patriarch is a monster for his cost.


It has an extremely small chance to do that, almost impossible. Also, there's this mechanic called deny, you might want to check it out. I've heard most armies have some way to do it.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:24:39


Post by: Carnikang


This just turned my rainy day into an afternoon of amusement.

It's going to change some things, and scare the pants off of some, but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.

Good? Definitely. I honestly am having a hard time being content to wait any longer for my Codex so I can start getting practice games in.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:26:53


Post by: KurtAngle2


Not Online!!! wrote:
The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.


A gsc player can only hide half of his army.

The other half is blips turned around at your first shooting phase.

However he still has a massive deployment advantage since he can change what units are under a blib and is not bound by that.
He only has to specify which units are underground / arrive via deepstrike.


False, with 1 CP we can bypass a bit of the half points/half units limit
But that stratagem is honestly needed otherwise we can't really deepstrike anything because characters aren't really cheap (atleast the Broodcoven)


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:27:27


Post by: EnTyme


 Sherrypie wrote:
Mind control on knights though, that's tasty.


Yep. Why would you want to blow up the Knight when you could be stealing it instead?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:30:41


Post by: KurtAngle2


text removed.

Reds8n



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:31:41


Post by: Carnikang


 EnTyme wrote:
 Sherrypie wrote:
Mind control on knights though, that's tasty.


Yep. Why would you want to blow up the Knight when you could be stealing it instead?


I know! First we Mind Control it, then we MO it, then we shiv em real good.

Then we steal what's left and make it into a Renegade Knight Allied to GSC for Narrative Play....


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:39:45


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

No, they can't, they are still bound by the same restrictions as everyone else on what percentage of their army can be put in deep strike. I certainly haven't seen anything that changes that.
Ah so balanced that the majority of their units have innate deepstrike. Only 50% to deal with.


Except for those pesky objectives that might give you a decent idea where they'll be going.

Lol wut? Here's how it'll pan out: 'oh man I sure hope my AV weapon is in range of something useful! Oh those blips were all infantry huh? Well at least I have my charging units (that have to stay 9" away) over there ready to rock! Oh they charged a bunch of melee beatsticks....cool...cool.'

Its incredibly powerful.

It has an extremely small chance to do that, almost impossible. Also, there's this mechanic called deny, you might want to check it out. I've heard most armies have some way to do it.

Oh wow thanks genius! Better hope I deny that power or I insta lose anything. That's cool, a really good mechanic. There isn't a 'small chance' to do it. The chance is exactly as high as how much the player wants to do it. There is no counterplay except hoping I can deny? I hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:44:20


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


40k must have multiple layers of sky what with its continual falling going on. Lol

I am looking forward to getting back to 40k with GSC.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:45:27


Post by: Not Online!!!


hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?


Petition to rename kelermorph into herple-derple-Kelerschmerple, or short fritzl.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:45:34


Post by: Marmatag


KurtAngle2 wrote:

Shut up marine lover, actually the GSC Stratagems can really be considered "Stratagems" and not "enhancement of an unit offensive power that should be considered into the unit's cost) since they're mostly positioning/deployment/tactical advantages and not plain "kill more"


Lol.

When you calm down, it would be fun to hear your point when it's expressed intelligibly.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:49:25


Post by: Carnikang


Not Online!!! wrote:
hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?


Petition to rename kelermorph into herple-derple-Kelerschmerple, or short fritzl.


Heller Keler, and change his entry to make him blind and deaf. Yet still hits on 2+.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:49:32


Post by: p5freak


I will boycott GSC. I will not even play against them. Some mutilated mine workers infantry that dont suffer the penalty to move and shoot heavy weapons ? SM cant do that. Vets cant do that. Dev squads cant do that, and they are trained to use heavy weapons. SM are elite warriors, especially designed for combat, with real weapons. Not some mining tools what GSC uses as improvised weapons. Not even custodes have that ability. WTF ? They can add D6 models to a troop choice for 1 CP. No other faction can do that, i think. They can move D6" after deepstriking for some CP, dont know how many exactly. What ? Is there any other faction which can do that ? I dont think so. GSC are ridiculous.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:53:27


Post by: fraser1191


 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I agree actually. Woot, same page for the first time! (i think)

I'm not buying any more GW products until they do something about balance.

It also rankles me that they're increasing the price of paints and start collecting kits. It's a very "old GW" move.


It is not. At least with the paints. GW does a ton of “how to” videos that they don’t charge for, a painting app that demonstrates paint schemes, employs Duncan, etc etc. We don’t pay for those; except we do, in the cost of the paints. You actually pay Duncan’s salary by buying paints. There are a ton of free paint add-ons. If you’re using those add-one, you’re likely buying GW paint. And thus paying for those add-one. But Duncan and the other guys likely get salary bonuses/raises...and that’s where the $0.25 hike comes from. 100% fine with the prices on paints.


I agree, a pot of paint lasts me quite a while so a couple extra cents isn't the end of the world. But as far as the start collecting boxes go. I'm not impressed with the price hike unless they are changing the contents of the boxes.

Let's be honest though some of GWs boxes made no sense. Crisis suits cost 90 but a start collecting box with crisis suits costs 100, an Onager costs 80 but a box costs 100 etc..


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:54:16


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Not Online!!! wrote:
hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?


Petition to rename kelermorph into herple-derple-Kelerschmerple, or short fritzl.

signed!


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 21:56:06


Post by: the_scotsman


I thought he was Jeans Dealer, Cowboy Outlaw Ghost Clone with Triple Copyrightcannons?

We had to rename him in the other thread because so many people were getting fluff aneurisms because he wasn't a named character, just a one-per-detachment limited character with unique wargear and rules BUT NO NAME and THE WEAPONS WEREN'T UNIQUE SOUNDING ENOUGH.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:00:36


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:03:01


Post by: Not Online!!!


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.


So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:04:30


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Ah so balanced that the majority of their units have innate deepstrike. Only 50% to deal with.


Yeah, it's kind of their thing. Of course if you go first you have two turns to beat the crap out of 50% of their army, potentially with 100% of yours, which, honestly, if you can't make that work, I don't know what to tell you, but the flaw is not the rules at that point. Even if you don't you only have to deal with 50% of their army attacking potentially 100% of yours. Also, pretty much any army can do this, even your 'woe is me' Orks.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lol wut? Here's how it'll pan out: 'oh man I sure hope my AV weapon is in range of something useful! Oh those blips were all infantry huh? Well at least I have my charging units (that have to stay 9" away) over there ready to rock! Oh they charged a bunch of melee beatsticks....cool...cool.'


You're right, it might involve actually engaging your brain, so you might have a problem there.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Oh wow thanks genius! Better hope I deny that power or I insta lose anything. That's cool, a really good mechanic. There isn't a 'small chance' to do it. The chance is exactly as high as how much the player wants to do it. There is no counterplay except hoping I can deny? I hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?


Try doing the math. I know this doesn't jibe with your desire to abandon all logic in favor of complete emotional breakdown, but try actually doing the math. I'm utterly unconcerned about this power, but I have lots of ways to shut down psychic powers.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:07:32


Post by: JohnnyHell


I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:08:27


Post by: Not Online!!!


 JohnnyHell wrote:
I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!




Take mine exalt.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:16:04


Post by: Timeshadow


Not Online!!! wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!




Take mine exalt.


Agreed EXAULTED!!! :-)

Edit: BTW this is my first Exalt ever..... made me laugh out loud at work...people are looking at me strangely


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:23:38


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Yeah, it's kind of their thing.

Is it also 'kind of their thing' to have flat better versions of other armies equivalent units?

I note you haven't addressed much of the concerns I raised, presumably because you have no response to them?

E -
Not Online!!! wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.


So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.


Petition to remove "Herple Derple Kelerschmerple" from the naming list, we can't have any competition to the Boomdakka Snazzwagon that is without question the best name GW have ever made.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:24:56


Post by: the_scotsman


Again, I love that we're bringing up the Timmy combo, because it just beautifully illustrates how dakka works.

Here's what tyranid soup needs to do to successfully pull of a crazy oneshot with mental onslaught:

-Put a LD10 patriarch next to a clamavus, giving him LD11

-Successfully cast "The Horror" from a souped nid detachment on the intended target, lowering its LD by 1.

-Spend 1CP to take a Deliverance Broodsurge detachment, then take an Acolyte Iconward so you can take the Vial of Grandsire's Blood. Stand him next to Grandpappy Patriarch giving him LD12.

AFAIK....that's what we've got. A grand total of +2 to our guy, -1 to theirs with a souped ally, which means to reliably cause 9 wounds (oneshotting most normal models) your desired target must be LD8 or lower to start off with. There seems to be a way to get -1LD with an aberrant stratagem but only in the fight phase til the end of the turn (so it can't help with psychic powers).

I thought there was one more, am I forgetting something? Either way, just ignore that Eldar can pretty much stack you down to LD0 from 10 and cast Mind War with their freakshow combos and that doesn't show up in competitive play at all, a paltry 11+2D6 wounds maximum is NOTHING compared to what GSC can do if you just cast two psychic powers, spend a CP to unlock a relic, take another relic, put them on 130 points of characters, stand them next to a 120 point character, get them all into range of your intended target, and have it all go off JUST AS PLANNED!



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:26:43


Post by: PuppetSoul


 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.


I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:35:12


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I note you haven't addressed much of the concerns I raised, presumably because you have no response to them?


I thought about it, but then I realized that you really want to be angry and indignant and that there was no information in existence that would change this, so why bother?

Enjoy wallowing in your butthurt, you seem very committed to it.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:39:51


Post by: Not Online!!!



E -
Not Online!!! wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.


So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.


Petition to remove "Herple Derple Kelerschmerple" from the naming list, we can't have any competition to the Boomdakka Snazzwagon that is without question the best name GW have ever made.


Is vetoed. Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple is now a fixture of dakka and if you utter one more concern about the nickname justly given by you to the Kelermorph, then thouh shall be exiled to a penitent crusade into the Eye of Terror.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:40:11


Post by: Carnikang


PuppetSoul wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.


I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.


So is it the fear of Tier 1 army play, or is it the fear of the Codex being broken that you're arguing for? Because Daedae Dee is calling for a boycott because they're broken, and fears what that will do.

Being a strong contender to fight Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup is a good thing. That is nothing to fear.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:41:33


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Carnikang wrote:
PuppetSoul wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.


I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.


So is it the fear of Tier 1 army play, or is it the fear of the Codex being broken that you're arguing for? Because Daedae Dee is calling for a boycott because they're broken, and fears what that will do.

Being a strong contender to fight Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup is a good thing. That is nothing to fear.


Ehm isn't this more a kick to the chaos soup that spams charachters?
Imperial soup still has Castellans.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:42:30


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I note you haven't addressed much of the concerns I raised, presumably because you have no response to them?


I thought about it, but then I realized that you really want to be angry and indignant and that there was no information in existence that would change this, so why bother?

Enjoy wallowing in your butthurt, you seem very committed to it.

Ah that old chestnut. Its not that you don't have a response to my very logical and sensible concerns but it's that you believe you won't be able to change my opinion. Odd then that you tried to refute a few of my points? Seems contradictory in fact.

I'm not butthurt yet BTW, that will come after I play GSC and they decide to bend me over and go to town.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:47:52


Post by: sfshilo


the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.


Some armies will have tools to deal with them, but I am concerned with those outside that relatively small bubble. It's just not a good dynamic for the game as a whole.



If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.


That logic falls flat on it's face when things like 7th ed Eldar/Tau, 4th ed CSM, and 5th ed gray knights occur. If they are wrecking face at a tournament what do you think is happening in friendly games? I had friends stop playing those armies as they could not get a game. People got TIRED of the edition and game as a whole because of those armies.

So don't sit there and crap on tourney players, they are some of the most passionate and involved players we have, if something like this is coming down the pike it's been proven as of late GW is listening.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 22:48:08


Post by: Carnikang


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
PuppetSoul wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.


I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.


So is it the fear of Tier 1 army play, or is it the fear of the Codex being broken that you're arguing for? Because Daedae Dee is calling for a boycott because they're broken, and fears what that will do.

Being a strong contender to fight Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup is a good thing. That is nothing to fear.


Ehm isn't this more a kick to the chaos soup that spams charachters?
Imperial soup still has Castellans.


I can think of one chaos player locally that uses soup, and he's pretty nasty with his list. Haven't really seen much otherwise, but that just be my area. The rest is Imperial and Aeldari soup, with a smattering of pure lists here and there.

It is a shot to the nads for them, but I don't think it's going to push them into Oblivion.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 23:00:20


Post by: Tyel


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Try doing the math. I know this doesn't jibe with your desire to abandon all logic in favor of complete emotional breakdown, but try actually doing the math. I'm utterly unconcerned about this power, but I have lots of ways to shut down psychic powers.


I might have my maths wrong.

But assuming the Patriarch has +3 LD (a few CP but easy enough to do - relic from Deliverence Broodsurge on Icon, Broodcoven stratagem into Magus or Primus with BRB inspiring leadership warlord trait+Clamvus).

Versus LD9 - you have a 49.85% chance to do 8 wounds. 24.85% chance to 16 wounds. A 10.4% chance to 24 wounds.
Versus LD8 - You have a 75.45% chance to 10 wounds. You have a 45.43% chance to 28 wounds.

You can't double-use stratagems (flamer acolytes got to flame) but you could also use Lying in Wait to put a Locus into 3" of a Knight or whatever for an additional -1 LD. There is also the Horror if you want to add soup. Not sure if Tyranids have any other LD reducing effects.

This might seem like quite a bit of investment/opportunity cost - but a 45% chance to 1-shot a Castelan and a huge chance to do a lot of wounds? Seems good. Plenty of targets don't have LD9 base either.
Given the overwhelming majority of damaging psychic powers do a 3 mortal wounds at most this seems like a mistake.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 23:11:52


Post by: Timeshadow


Both the battle reports I have seen for the "NEW" GSC have had them getting nearly wiped off the board. Yes they have a solid alpha strike but they are so fragile they all die to a stiff breeze. Yes they have some shenanigans in deployment but competitive players know generally where the best places to go are and if you don't go their by definition you are not playing optimally with your GSC.

GSC will shake up the meta a bit but I doubt it will cause a revolution.

Once a player knows the most dangerous tricks

3" DS with flamers
Mental onslaught bomb
Stacked buffs on Abberants
DS assault bomb

You can prepare for them and counter play. It will cause people to think a bit more, which is a good thing.

Also to note Demo charges are "grenades" so only one can be thrown per unit per turn unless you use a strat.

On the subject of strats and CP

We have close to the same ability to get CP as guard.

Our cheapest 2 HQ's (We can only have one of each per detachment) come to 126pts and our cheapest troop (effectively guardsmen) are bare bones 40pts per unit so another 120pts for 3 comes in at 246pts for our cheapest battalion. Guard have the loyal 32 for 180pts. Thats a 66pts difference.

GSC are very CP hungry and can easily eat up 6CP in a turn without blinking (from what I have seen and likely even more) and after they use up all the CP they are just slightly stabbier guardamen.

GSC have tons of characters that give buffs but if they use them all they won't have points for any big threatening stuff.

GSC have a devoted character for CP recovery.... he costs 60ish pts and allows them to regain when they or opp uses a strat on a 6+ or a 5+ if they have the right other character(one for them one for opp) which is 2 more characters we need to have....seeing a problem here.

I'm not saying once things shake down that GSC will not be one of the more powerful codex's but what I am saying is that nearly any codex in the hands of a concomitant player will be competitive with GSC.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 23:12:48


Post by: Not Online!!!


Spoiler:
 Carnikang wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
PuppetSoul wrote:
 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.


I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.


So is it the fear of Tier 1 army play, or is it the fear of the Codex being broken that you're arguing for? Because Daedae Dee is calling for a boycott because they're broken, and fears what that will do.

Being a strong contender to fight Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup is a good thing. That is nothing to fear.


Ehm isn't this more a kick to the chaos soup that spams charachters?
Imperial soup still has Castellans.


I can think of one chaos player locally that uses soup, and he's pretty nasty with his list. Haven't really seen much otherwise, but that just be my area. The rest is Imperial and Aeldari soup, with a smattering of pure lists here and there.

It is a shot to the nads for them, but I don't think it's going to push them into Oblivion.


It's probably dependant of how well they themselves can deal with knights. If they have an acceptable winrate they will show up and gatekeep Chaos out.
Csm regular are anyways out since the cultist nerf and the alpha legion bending over.
Atm Chaos is all about that sweet dp / ahriman / DG charachter spamming.

I personally dislike it but it's atm one of the few ways that work for Chaos.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 23:15:20


Post by: Xenomancers


Okay - you know GW has really lost it's mind when Daedalus81 is saying he is going to boycott an army for how strong it is LOL.

It's whatever - they've made the game into something more like magic where you have to get the newest release to compete- except at least at the end of the day - your models are always worth something. Where as in magic your old cards are worth crap in about 1 years time.


It kinda makes me excited about how potentially OP my space marine army will become when marine codex 2.0 comes out and space marines are just deathwatch +1. Except - I think the marine haters would be out in force when that happens. Basically no one cares about GSC (because it's concept is super lame) the few that do will have a super power army for pub smashing.

In tournaments? Well at least there are other super powerful armies like gaurd and ynnari. So you can choose between them.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 23:37:50


Post by: Marmatag


Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/04 23:43:03


Post by: Darsath


 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.


Well, I do suspect a refinement of the current rules (similar to Age of Sigmar 2.0) coming this summer. While they have Sisters slated for the launch, it's not unrealistic for them to update the Marine codex not long after now that all major factions have had their books updated.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 00:06:31


Post by: Marmatag


Darsath wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.


Well, I do suspect a refinement of the current rules (similar to Age of Sigmar 2.0) coming this summer. While they have Sisters slated for the launch, it's not unrealistic for them to update the Marine codex not long after now that all major factions have had their books updated.


I get it - i'm just saying, i haven't seen any actual evidence that this is the plan.

8th edition hasn't even hit the 2 year mark.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 00:12:41


Post by: dotcomee


Mental Onslaught is a pretty good example of them not testing their own rules, or being inept, but most likely the former since nobody wants to fully staff a proper QA department.

Chalk it up to fairly typical codex creep? Or as I like to refer to it, the legal "bait and switch" operation?

Buy all your GSC models now and get your games in quickly because you know the rules are going to change.

The next FAQ will nerf rules for the models you bought, and boost some for the ones you didn't. The next CA will make some of the models you bought more expensive, and the ones you didn't buy will be cheaper.

Can we go back to bitching about Imperial and Eldar soup now?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 00:14:35


Post by: Darsath


 Marmatag wrote:
Darsath wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.


Well, I do suspect a refinement of the current rules (similar to Age of Sigmar 2.0) coming this summer. While they have Sisters slated for the launch, it's not unrealistic for them to update the Marine codex not long after now that all major factions have had their books updated.


I get it - i'm just saying, i haven't seen any actual evidence that this is the plan.

8th edition hasn't even hit the 2 year mark.


7th edition only lasted 2 years. Really, we're coming to the last quarter of this edition.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 00:55:32


Post by: Kall3m0n


Well, I've played against the GSC thrice now. Twice with DG and once with pure Custodes, and I have to say that they are good. They are not OP at all, just a really really solid army, but dies easily. They are indeed a glasshammer and as such need a good general to not just crumble. They are still not in the top three armies I dread to play against.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 01:36:34


Post by: Zande4


Not Online!!! wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.


So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.


He has a poncho.

Nick names should be directed at notable poncho related characters like Kurt Russell from The Thing and Clint Eastwood.

I give you;

Cult Russell & Cult Eastwood.

These can also be used for another poncho wielding xeno Dahyak Grehk with;

Kroot Russell & Kroot Eastwood


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 01:47:49


Post by: the_scotsman


Mental Onslaught is like 2++ save bullgryns, Untouchable Solitaires and freakshow mind war 20MW combos: a wonderful thing for Timmies on the internet to freak out about because they don't understand compound probability and the real cost to get everything to fall into place perfectly.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 01:49:52


Post by: HoundsofDemos


Can we at least get some actual game and tournament feedback before we start burning books and banning armies? Yes some of their stuff looks strong but all of this so far is theory hammer.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 01:52:44


Post by: Quickjager


 Marmatag wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

Shut up marine lover, actually the GSC Stratagems can really be considered "Stratagems" and not "enhancement of an unit offensive power that should be considered into the unit's cost) since they're mostly positioning/deployment/tactical advantages and not plain "kill more"


Lol.

When you calm down, it would be fun to hear your point when it's expressed intelligibly.


It has been a while since I've seen a insult that base.

Anyway, Kellermorph ended up being extremely strong; it is an autotake per detachment (You are probably going to take two) and is a perfect example of game before fluff.

In fact a decent portion of this codex is a good example of game before fluff, Which isn't a big deal. Except that for some reason a large portion of 40k codices are stuck with the reverse, like orks, CSM, SM, Necrons, and ironically IG (might be the only case this ed. where a fluffy army is actually good because of how the core rules changed). So yea, either they can actually give people usable codices to actually play a game with or some of the designers are just starry-eyed at the prospect of making a codice for their favorite bit of lore.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 02:33:54


Post by: Galas


Thats my biggest problem with GSC.

I really like their rules but they feel totally detached from the fluff. And thats not a bad thing but when everysingle other codex is the inverse, they don't feel like they belong to this game system. I mean the stratagems are very cool in general but then all the weapons, bonuses and rules surrounding their characters ,psychic powers and bonuses are like "excuse me wtf".

And I was ready to make some mental concesions to having miner-alien-terrorists fighting Custodes but ... not like this



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 02:44:52


Post by: the_scotsman


 Galas wrote:
Thats my biggest problem with Kelermorph.

I really like Kellermorphs rules but they feel totally detached from the fluff. And thats not a bad thing but when everysingle other codex is the inverse, Kellermorph doesnt feel like they belong to this game system.



Ftfy.

Nothing else in this release is anything out of the fluff/rules ordinary. Maybe super buffed up aberrants? But they're at least grotesque - sized monstrosities with thunder hammers, and they're far less durable than a grotesque/spawn/beast of chaos or other comparably beefy looking unit.

Neophytes have guard stats.

Jackals are rough riders with no lances and -1 to hit/better movement.

A ridge runner is two sentinels that cost twice as much.

A rock grinder is a glorified razorback.

Acolytes are glass cannon-y ork boyz.

Barring Keller, none of the characters have particularly crazy auras or abilities. FNP 6+ aura, charge+morale boost, fearless aura out of the big guy, the biggest difference to them is some are conditional or unreliable being dependent on the character accomplishing something. They have nothing approaching the fame warping madness of a guillimam aura or an azrael aura, or even IG orders if rumors are to be believed.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 02:51:29


Post by: Imateria


the_scotsman wrote:
Mental Onslaught is like 2++ save bullgryns, Untouchable Solitaires and freakshow mind war 20MW combos: a wonderful thing for Timmies on the internet to freak out about because they don't understand compound probability and the real cost to get everything to fall into place perfectly.

Yeah, I used the 7th ed Harlies Mirror if Minds ability, which is identical to the current Mental Onslaught, in a Freakshow list when that set up was far more potent than this edition. I only ever got those ducks to line up properly once, nuking a Riptide turn 1 and that relied on a lot of luck, but most of the time the effort wasn't worth it as you ended up with units out of position and potentially easy pray.

I'm not worried about the deep striking handflamers as my front lines tend to be Talos, which laugh in the face of handflamers, Gortesques which do the same, and/or the "Unlucky 15" Kabalites who are meant to die in service to their Archon.

The Abberant Bomb with a 6" charge out of deepstrike, those Talos and/or Grots are the only real target of value for them and I have a Vexators mask to make them fight last, at which point they get pasted before they ever hit.

I'm expecting some really good games ahead as the two Nid/GSC players in my group get some new toys but at no point am I going into those games thinking I have no chance. Honestly as a pure Drukhari player it's Imperial Soup with Castellans that scare me more, without Doom they are very difficult to deal with.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 03:48:16


Post by: bananathug


I think this codex just piles onto the haves and have nots this edition.

I play marines. This codex just makes me look at the tools/points in my dex and question what GW was thinking. The Hellen Keller is another unit that straight up invalidates any primaris models I wanted to bring (he gets his points back in one round of shoot vs aggressors, hell blasters or inceptors). Deepstriking on the entire army, good melee beat sticks, very mobile units, great strats and psychic powers. Just looking at their points and stats is bad enough but you start looking at their buffs, special abilities, strats and powers and it's pretty obvious this dex is on a whole other level than my power armored boys.

I feel like this cements that GWs wants the army power level at around dark eldar/guard. GSC seem to be a little above but really close which makes it hard for me to scream about this codex being OP gak. I think yanarri, eldar soup and some imperial soup builds are a bit above and CWE, orcs, TS soup, DG, nids, tau and others are a bit below. But the gap between those tier A,B and C codexes and marines and necrons is huge.

GW putting out this dex after the lack of nerfs in CA 2018 seems to strongly suggest that GW wants that power level for most armies. It's just frustrating to own and play an army that is on the other end of the power curve with no relief in sight.

I think to people who play the underpowered armies units like the kellermorph or acolytes or abberants or sniper biker or the stratagems or psychic powers just seem so OP its crazy. But then you weigh those against ravagers, grots, tank commanders, guardsmen, cat lady, hemlocks, reapers, spears, knights, broadsides, drones, lootas, ahriman, etc and they really don't look that out of place.

To people who play the "good" armies this edition the sky doesn't look like it's falling at all. I think GSC fits right in with the most powerful of the codexes. For me, this is just another codex that my power armored dudes just are not on the same level with and skews the average army power level even further from something marines can deal with.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 04:29:52


Post by: Daedalus81


Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?


I feel like this is a red herring.

Either you need a lictor and pheromone trail for 1 CP or a tunnel unit and 1 CP and a burrower - no one seems to like the lictor.

That's a way bigger investment to be equally effective. That extra 140+ points (more than halfway to a battalion) is better served getting more CP to use the stratagems, which is why it wouldn't likely see use.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 04:49:13


Post by: Xenomancers


 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.

No - but just going along the lines of the next codex being super OP if there was one I'd be ecstatic.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:11:33


Post by: Arson Fire


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?


I feel like this is a red herring.

Either you need a lictor and pheromone trail for 1 CP or a tunnel unit and 1 CP and a burrower - no one seems to like the lictor.

That's a way bigger investment to be equally effective. That extra 140+ points (more than halfway to a battalion) is better served getting more CP to use the stratagems, which is why it wouldn't likely see use.

Average 90 S4 hits at 18" (which will also re-roll 1's to wound) vs average 70 S3 hits at 6".
Yes you do have to pay a bit more for it, because it's not equally effective. It's significantly more effective. 17.5 dead marines vs 7.78 dead marines.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:18:18


Post by: Quickjager


Arson Fire wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Why are people going nuts over the 20 hand flamer thing again?
Doesn't seem much different to a tyranid devilgaunt bomb to me.

A 240 point unit of 30 deepstriking termagants with devourers. 2CP to make them fire twice. So 180 S4 shots at 18" range.
Tyranids have had this since their codex dropped, and it barely shows up in lists.

How is 70 S3 auto hits for their genestealer cult buddies suddenly breaking the game?


I feel like this is a red herring.

Either you need a lictor and pheromone trail for 1 CP or a tunnel unit and 1 CP and a burrower - no one seems to like the lictor.

That's a way bigger investment to be equally effective. That extra 140+ points (more than halfway to a battalion) is better served getting more CP to use the stratagems, which is why it wouldn't likely see use.

Average 90 S4 hits at 18" (which will also re-roll 1's to wound) vs average 70 S3 hits at 6".
Yes you do have to pay a bit more for it, because it's not equally effective. It's significantly more effective. 17.5 dead marines vs 7.78 dead marines.


But we aren't worried about marines acting as bubblewrap, because if you are using them as so you are already playing like an idiot. If you put them against GUARDSMEN which cost significantly less, there are more of, and are T3; you come out much more significantly ahead because the ratio of points used compared to a devilgaunt bomb is MUCH better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically Daed is right, it is a red herring because there is an immense difference on cost between the two.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:25:42


Post by: Arson Fire


Alright, so it's 46.67 dead guardsmen from the gaunts, vs 23.33 dead guardsmen from the flamers. Still twice as effective.
I'm still not seeing how they break the game.

Looks like 240 points for the gaunts, + 69 points for a ravener taxi.
160 points for 20 acolytes. So that about adds up.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:27:56


Post by: Quickjager


Because you only need 20 dead guardsmen for a screen to not exist anymore. So guess what? That means you invested less points to get the same job done, the screen is dead kill the juicy stuff now.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:31:49


Post by: Arson Fire


Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:37:17


Post by: Quickjager


Why are you mentioning raveners? Am I missing something here? Don't you mean... Trygons which are much more expensive?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:37:49


Post by: mew28


Arson Fire wrote:
Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.

Because you still need to invest in that lictor/trygon witch drags their cost up a ton.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:39:51


Post by: Arson Fire


 Quickjager wrote:
Why are you mentioning raveners? Am I missing something here? Don't you mean... Trygons which are much more expensive?

Sure you can bring a trygon if you want to spend lots of points (and get a big melee beatstick too, to be fair). Or you can pay 69 points for 3 raveners in a Jormangundr detachment and use 1CP to deepstrike the gaunts in with them.
 mew28 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.

Because you still need to invest in that lictor/trygon witch drags their cost up a ton.

Sure, 29 points more than the acolytes. Bearing in mind they have 18" range rather than 6", and you also get another unit along with them.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:42:39


Post by: Quickjager


Arson Fire wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
Why are you mentioning raveners? Am I missing something here? Don't you mean... Trygons which are much more expensive?

Sure you can bring a trygon if you want to spend lots of points (and get a big melee beatstick too, to be fair). Or you can pay 69 points for 3 raveners in a Jormangundr detachment and use 1CP to deepstrike the gaunts in with them.


But why waste a Hive Fleet adaptation on that when you can pick a different Hive Fleet, take GSC and do the same job cheaper while still keeping your adaptation for something else?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 05:48:55


Post by: Arson Fire


Jormangundr is a decent trait in its own right. Means the gaunts will have a 5+ save against shooting on the turn they show up.

But still, what I've been trying to question with all this, is whether these cultists are really packing such an inordinate amount of firepower that nothing else like it exists.
Yes the devilgaunt bomb has a couple more conditions attached to it, but it's really not all that different. That's all I'm getting at here.

It's slightly off topic, but since it was mentioned I feel compelled to point out that you can't use a lictor for this. Pheromone trail is a busted stratagem, and basically only allows you to reposition a unit that was already in reserves from some other means. Given that nearly every method of putting a unit into reserves also lets it deepstrike anywhere, the stratagem is near useless.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 06:03:06


Post by: Quickjager


You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Don't know ow to strikethrough, this following is a wrong statement of mine.
Also you are wrong about the Jorm adaptation working on Deepstrike it doesn't so thats another strike against it.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 06:17:58


Post by: mew28


Arson Fire wrote:
 mew28 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Well if that's all it takes, then why not just bring half as many gaunts.

Because you still need to invest in that lictor/trygon witch drags their cost up a ton.

Sure, 29 points more than the acolytes. Bearing in mind they have 18" range rather than 6", and you also get another unit along with them.

29 points is not insignificant GK strikes vs normal tacs is only 40 more points and that shifts them from mid teir to trash teir despite the GK geting quite a bit for those 40 points on paper.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 06:29:38


Post by: Sunny Side Up


 Quickjager wrote:
You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on..


Jormangundr relic would work nice alongside a GSC Patriach with the new Mental Onslaught (?) power. Add the Horror. Maybe another GSC LD debuff. And that Castellan/Riptide/whatever will be rolling 5 or 6 + D6 vs. the Patriarchs 10 + D6, taking MWs until they beat your Patriach on that roll-off. 6" range still sucks, but hey.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 06:31:02


Post by: Quickjager


Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on..


Jormangundr relic would work nice alongside a GSC Patriach with the new Mental Onslaught (?) power. Add the Horror. Maybe another GSC LD debuff. And that Castellan/Riptide/whatever will be rolling 5 or 6 + D6 vs. the Patriarchs 10 + D6, taking MWs until they beat your Patriach on that roll-off. 6" range still sucks, but hey.



Other people in the thread have gone over why Mental Onslaught isn't that OP, adding this as a conditional... I agree with them that it isn't worth building for.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 07:06:13


Post by: Sunny Side Up


 Quickjager wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
You are asking why it is better, that is because Jormangundr isn't as good as the others; so why take it for a gimmick THAT CAN BE DONE BETTER, quit backpedaling.

Take Kraken, get a relic actually worth using. So on and so on..


Jormangundr relic would work nice alongside a GSC Patriach with the new Mental Onslaught (?) power. Add the Horror. Maybe another GSC LD debuff. And that Castellan/Riptide/whatever will be rolling 5 or 6 + D6 vs. the Patriarchs 10 + D6, taking MWs until they beat your Patriach on that roll-off. 6" range still sucks, but hey.



Other people in the thread have gone over why Mental Onslaught isn't that OP, adding this as a conditional... I agree with them that it isn't worth building for.


Sure. But it's not like any LVO or other Nid-list hardcore list out there is using the Kraken relic either. Can't put it on Swarmlord and it's not really needed on anything else.

For that pick-up game, the Jormungundr thingy isn't worse than the Kraken -1 skin. For competitive play, both are junk.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 08:24:45


Post by: addnid


 JohnnyHell wrote:
I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!


You sir have made my day ! f...ing awesome prose !


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Genestealer Cult players wait nearly 2 years for a codex. Finally comes out and they are asked(almost demanded) to boycott it. At this point I can't help but chuckle at the misfortune of GSC players.

I am personally just going to wait and see.


We are asked by a medium to low skilled player (I can tell from his posts) who posted on dakka. No big deal hah hah. I didn't say a self-important drooling entitled moron mind you, but I kinda share the idea that emotions more than reason drive people to create posts asking to nerf an army which hasn't yet had its codex officially released.
Perhaps GW will nerf a few things here and there but so far, I see nothing I can't deal with in this codex. Stuff that will force me to think yes, stuff that might make me lose my first games against them, maybe.
That is all, and honestly thay have no "loota bomb level" of fear raising combos. The infinite MW psychic spell will be FAQed for sure, the bullgryn orders because brood brothers also.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 08:55:54


Post by: Tyel


the_scotsman wrote:
Mental Onslaught is like 2++ save bullgryns, Untouchable Solitaires and freakshow mind war 20MW combos: a wonderful thing for Timmies on the internet to freak out about because they don't understand compound probability and the real cost to get everything to fall into place perfectly.


Why? What cost?

Lets do the simple version. Patriarch, Iconward+Relic from Detachment+Clamavus.
Patriarch seems pretty good - you are not taking it just for this ability. The Relic from the detachment is a bit of an opportunity cost (paying 1-2 CP, giving up the +1 S banner) - but the Iconward is the cheapest HQ so there is a good chance you will have one - especially if you are taking more than 1 detachment. A Clamavus is just 33 points (I think?). Auto include? No - but not exactly breaking the bank. All in all for I think 214 points. Not a lot of fat here. 1-2 CP? Again, not that bad. This faction has a lot of useful things to use CPs on - but it shouldn't be starved of them.

There is an opportunity cost that those characters all have to stand together - but that seems manageable.

Another CP and a Magus and a Primus - and the opportunity cost of Inspiring Leader versus another choice - now we are getting a bit Timmy. This is another CP (although you can offset that by taking the four armed warlord trait if you hadn't already). If you want these characters anyway then great, but I can see why in an optimised list you might not, and therefore it represents additional fat.

A Locus to deep strike/run in? At 40 points we are not breaking the bank - but yes, opportunity cost potentially on the stratagem, he's not that fast and he's 40 points.

Okay you have to cast the spell - but its on a 6. Not that difficult, especially with a potential reroll. They can potentially counter it. But this is true for most offensive psychic powers.

But lets say you have Ld12 and target something with Ld8. Its not a Knight, but there are plenty of targets that have this Leadership and cost around 150-200 points.

You then have the following percentage chance of doing this many or more wounds:
1 0.916666666666667
2 0.840277777777778
3 0.77025462962963
4 0.70606674382716
5 0.64722784850823
6 0.593292194465878
7 0.543851178260388
8 0.498530246738689
9 0.456986059510465
10 0.418903887884593

That seems pretty good to me. The all in approach might be a bit Timmy to get Ld13 vs a Ld8 might be a bit Timmy - but you don't have to do that for this to be abnormally efficient.
And to be fair, it still isn't that hard to do - and when you one shot a Castelan you are going to probably win that game.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 09:06:13


Post by: BoomWolf


While the concept of a boycott is quite silly, and can't be expected from anyone who actually is a GSC player...

Not admitting that this codex features quite a few jaw-dropping powerful options that will cause a massive bandwagon towards GSC and it's soups is also absurd.


This codex is good. too good. WAY too good.
It puts DE to shame levels of good.

Sure, it has some mediocre picks (ironically, quite a few of the new kits are the mediocre stuff), but it really features a large selection of utter nonsense.

They are a horde army using "junk-repair" equipment, that is somehow outclassing space marine equipment in quality, and outclassing IG equipment in quantity.
The got the best of everything, and in large numbers.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 09:22:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.

Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.

People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 09:38:25


Post by: Silver144


So all those crazy rumors are true and even more?
Lol, GW will nerf this fraction multiple times like they nerf IG.

This codecs looks like it was made by fanboy.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 10:01:42


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.

Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.

People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.



"JUST SCREEN MATE"

No, sorry, use one pistol to shoot the screen, kill some of the screen, get free rerolls of 1's and use the remaining pistols on the main target, Oh and just willy nilly provide a 1 rerolling aura.
And that is just kellerschmerple alone.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 10:08:05


Post by: addnid


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.

Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.

People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.



Let it go Mad doc, I praise your efforts, but many posts here are obviously written by dudes who'd rather whine and complain than learn the ropes of 8th edition 40k. They will not really consider the points you make (which are good BTW), as they prefer to talk about power levels and GW making broken stuff and pretend they know what they are talking about.
I suspect many of the people posting here about broken stuff don't even play 40k that often.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 10:41:32


Post by: BoomWolf


Oh look, another "git gud" poster.

We knew conscripts were bonkers the day we first saw the index.
We knew guard codex was top tier the moment it dropped.
We knew DE are going to be disgustingly good, and the agents of vect being too good.


Side things are so freakishly over the curve you can tell the moment you lay eyes on them.
The keler is like that.
The abdominat is like that.
The hand flamers are like that.

So many relics and stratagems are like that, including a replay of agents of vect.


It does not take more than basic reading and minor mathing to tell that the GSC is top tier even before you optimize and start souping.
The fact is, even on the casual level, GSC will bury most armies.
And then we enter the fluff murder aspect that the cult is somehow using junk repair and repurposed mining tools who are one to one superior to what the best of the imperium or chaos has to offer, and deploy them in mass.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 10:44:48


Post by: blood reaper


'Boycott'

This has literally no chances of happening what-so-ever. No one is seriously going to boycott a 40k rulebook because of flimsy inductive evidence that the list is strong. The number of times people have called for boycotts on things that might actually matter (Finecast, Forge World, etc.) nothing actually happened (in the Forge World case, it was less that people refused to buy, it was more that they were never going to buy at those prices in the first place).

The only thing this will produce is a lot of new posts for my cringe compilation.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 11:21:34


Post by: Voss


OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.

This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical dakka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 11:39:05


Post by: Not Online!!!


Voss wrote:
OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.

This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical da kka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.


This.

Granted stuff like the Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple will be annoying and strong as feth but a boycott is the last ditch.

I am suggesting waiting and drinking Tea albeit with scrutiny torwards the Kelermorph the handflamers.

Aswell as vect 2.0


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 11:43:44


Post by: Stux


 blood reaper wrote:
'Boycott'

This has literally no chances of happening what-so-ever. No one is seriously going to boycott a 40k rulebook because of flimsy inductive evidence that the list is strong. The number of times people have called for boycotts on things that might actually matter (Finecast, Forge World, etc.) nothing actually happened (in the Forge World case, it was less that people refused to buy, it was more that they were never going to buy at those prices in the first place).

The only thing this will produce is a lot of new posts for my cringe compilation.


You're absolutely right, and I'll wager the OP knows it. They've called for a boycott for attention, and the best way to deal with that is to not engage with it.

There's a valuable discussion to be had about power in 40k, and it will have a lot more substance when the book is out and we've had chance to play some games.

I don't want to engage with someone who opens with such a ridiculous and attention seeking premise though.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 12:47:53


Post by: the_scotsman


Not Online!!! wrote:
Voss wrote:
OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.

This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical da kka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.


This.

Granted stuff like the Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple will be annoying and strong as feth but a boycott is the last ditch.

I am suggesting waiting and drinking Tea albeit with scrutiny torwards the Kelermorph the handflamers.

Aswell as vect 2.0


I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.

Again, the end result would probably be the same: Competitive Nid Soup now on par with other competitive soups, and you have a more diverse competitive scene, marines and primaris marines still underpowered, Tau getting a bump and imperial soup a little weaker, but I feel like a lot of the people running around like chickens with their heads cut off on the forum right now might calm down.

I'm probably going to write them that for the 2-week FAQ. 1 point D3 hand flamers almost sounds like a hand flamer that's about worth its points.

Though I do find it a little bit funny that everybody is losing their minds because GSC can spend 2cp to make 20 8-point guys do slightly less damage than 4 FRFSRF infantry squads. 3.5 hits per 8 point model vs 2 hits per 4 point model.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:02:45


Post by: Cephalobeard


Man, I feel like we get one of these posts every time a codex comes out.

Stay awful, Dakka. Stick to the kitchen table, you'll never have to worry about the "big bad mean new codex" that way, anyway.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:04:44


Post by: beast_gts


the_scotsman wrote:
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.


CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:11:36


Post by: the_scotsman


beast_gts wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.


CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.


Oh. Well in that case, muuuh? Maybe the chaff clearing capabilities of the hand flamer bomb was based around the idea that the chaff clearing abilities of similar things (fire warriors with triple-tap, deathwatch with storm bolters, IG with FRFSRF) was acceptable. The gun itself does seem at least a point or two undercosted, though at 6" range it is a lot more trivial to avoid the overwatch than it is with a regular flamer (you don't give up nearly as much reliability on the charge)


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:11:54


Post by: The Phazer


beast_gts wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.


CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.


Indeed. I suspect that's legit.

I won't be entirely shocked if the points cost for hand flamers is nerfed fairly quickly though. Which leads me to a tricky decision about building a bunch of acolytes with hand flamers as I started last night. If they get increased to two points, fair enough, or even three really. But suddenly Acolytes will become a lot worse period if we get them increased by five or more points, and they've no shooting punch otherwise with the new Cult Ambush rules. I'm just a bit nervous they'll be wrecked and I'll have wasted that time for nothing.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:16:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.

Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.

People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.



"JUST SCREEN MATE"

No, sorry, use one pistol to shoot the screen, kill some of the screen, get free rerolls of 1's and use the remaining pistols on the main target, Oh and just willy nilly provide a 1 rerolling aura.
And that is just kellerschmerple alone.


That....that doesn't work.

Yes, the Kelermorph can split his fire. But what he can't do is shoot one pistol, let another squad clear the chaff, then have at the enemy character? See, this is why I'm concerned those adamant that the Sky is Falling haven't actually looked into stuff? I mean, seriously, I'm pretty much a NooB here, and am still at the stage of having to check and read each rule as it comes up. Yet I seem to have a better handle than those claiming doom and gloom.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:17:36


Post by: Not Online!!!


the_scotsman wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.


CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.


Oh. Well in that case, muuuh? Maybe the chaff clearing capabilities of the hand flamer bomb was based around the idea that the chaff clearing abilities of similar things (fire warriors with triple-tap, deathwatch with storm bolters, IG with FRFSRF) was acceptable. The gun itself does seem at least a point or two undercosted, though at 6" range it is a lot more trivial to avoid the overwatch than it is with a regular flamer (you don't give up nearly as much reliability on the charge)


They porbably seem equal, especially in the case of FRFSRF, but missing is a thing with lasguns, whilest it is not for flamers.

I don't know. But it is also true that flamers until now of any variety sucked hard.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We don't know that though. There's no raw data, just a lot of freaking out at potential. Which given every other discussion seems hooked on averages is, well, telling.

Kelermorph, as I've already explained, is actually quite tricky to use. Blob it, and he's toast.

People still screaming 'entire army can DS' when actually, we can't. We're still subject to the 50% rule. And a mass deepstrike, when your infantry is a squishy as Cultists may not be the most advisable thing. Because it'll basically be turn up, shoot some stuff, get shot to death in the next turn. Only takes a couple of Tactical Objectives held by my opponent for such a whoopsie to turn the game on it's head.



"JUST SCREEN MATE"

No, sorry, use one pistol to shoot the screen, kill some of the screen, get free rerolls of 1's and use the remaining pistols on the main target, Oh and just willy nilly provide a 1 rerolling aura.
And that is just kellerschmerple alone.


That....that doesn't work.

Yes, the Kelermorph can split his fire. But what he can't do is shoot one pistol, let another squad clear the chaff, then have at the enemy character? See, this is why I'm concerned those adamant that the Sky is Falling haven't actually looked into stuff? I mean, seriously, I'm pretty much a NooB here, and am still at the stage of having to check and read each rule as it comes up. Yet I seem to have a better handle than those claiming doom and gloom.


Actually you just fastroll then which you don't need too, read part 3 of the BRB.
So yes he has on 2/3rds of his shots full rerolls if there is chaff around, and no he does not need to fire against more chaff, he can fire at another chaff squad or a charachter, not to mention that the pistol 3 relic will be really funny with shots that basically can't miss.
Thank you verymuch.

Also again "JUST SCREEN MATE" has become such a huge meme with charachters like kelermorph and slamguines that it is kinda funny, kinda. Or would be if all armies would get something comparable, which they don't.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:20:50


Post by: the_scotsman


 The Phazer wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.


CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.


Indeed. I suspect that's legit.

I won't be entirely shocked if the points cost for hand flamers is nerfed fairly quickly though. Which leads me to a tricky decision about building a bunch of acolytes with hand flamers as I started last night. If they get increased to two points, fair enough, or even three really. But suddenly Acolytes will become a lot worse period if we get them increased by five or more points, and they've no shooting punch otherwise with the new Cult Ambush rules. I'm just a bit nervous they'll be wrecked and I'll have wasted that time for nothing.


Yeah, I pretty much advise anyone against building their army entirely towards one currently competitive combo. Long term, you'll end up happier if you just build a variety of squads that have a cohesive role to play and trust that as balance fluctuates you'll end up with a decent army no matter what. Whether somebody asks "should I build an army with 10 drop pods" or "should I build an army with 10 Basilisks" then my army is pretty much the same give or take a year of getting to play your competitive army. If you're at all attached to what you're collecting, shoot for the middle of the road competitiveness wise, and take the extra effort to find somewhere you can play where that's allowable and where people aren't just ebaying their stuff/mass proxying every 6 months to chase the dragon. Your hobby will be healtier for you.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:21:46


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


What are you talking about? Seriously. What?

What does fastroll have to do with anything? When splitting fire, you need to declare your targets before any rolls to hit. You can't shoot Weapon A, see how it does, then top up with Weapon B and C as needed.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:24:03


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are you talking about? Seriously. What?

What does fastroll have to do with anything? When splitting fire, you need to declare your targets before any rolls to hit. You can't shoot Weapon A, see how it does, then top up with Weapon B and C as needed.


I am talking about the fact that screening isn't particlary usefull since you will grant little kelermorph here 2/3rd of his gaks reroll 1's against your main priority target.

That is what i take issue with on top of his over the top doubling of rof just because lulz.

Scenario:
10 guardsmen and a commander, the commander is the main target, you drop the kelermorph, first shoot at the guardsmen squad with 1 gun and kill a guardsmen, bam now you shoot the other pistols at the commander. You now have full rerolls and guaranteed that atleast against the priority target the ROF doubles thanks to the kelers special rule.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:25:08


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


I'm still confused as to why GW putting out a new codex that can compete with the grotesque combos people have had years to perfect is a bad thing? Shouldn't a new codex be top tier, at least when it initially drops? Or are no other factions supposed to upset your narrow idea of how the game should be played?
That kind of Rock,Paper,Scissors idiocy was why I left this game.

Quit bitching, read my sig, get better.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:27:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


But...but you can't? The Kelermorph has three weapons. If you want to split your fire, you need to declare each target in turn, before rolling to hit.

And if you target the same unit with all three, all three pistol attacks resolve at the same time - so he can never benefit from his own Aura Buff.

If he can target the enemy character, just get it done. If not, you can't shoot up the screen, have others clear it, then tackle the character. Not in the same turn.

So I'm really struggling to see your counter point here?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:29:05


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But...but you can't? The Kelermorph has three weapons. If you want to split your fire, you need to declare each target in turn, before rolling to hit.

And if you target the same unit with all three, all three pistol attacks resolve at the same time - so he can never benefit from his own Aura Buff.

If he can target the enemy character, just get it done. If not, you can't shoot up the screen, have others clear it, then tackle the character. Not in the same turn.

So I'm really struggling to see your counter point here?


To quote from the shooting phase BRB:

.....]"resolve all shooting attacks against one target, before you choose the next target......."[






So yes he can if he splits his fire, profit from his own aura.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:30:10


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Right, your example has clarified things somewhat.

The issue here is that if my opponent has left room for my Kelermorph to be within pistol range of his character - that's not the Kelemorph being overpowered, but poor positioning by my opponent. And indeed at that point, I would not need to clear the screen for the Kelermorph to do his job. I'd just shoot up the character as many times as I can, put them 6 feet under, and consider it Job's a Good'un, whether or not there was also room for me to provide the Kelermorph with his own target blocking bodyguard.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:32:12


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right, your example has clarified things somewhat.

The issue here is that if my opponent has left room for my Kelermorph to be within pistol range of his character - that's not the Kelemorph being overpowered, but poor positioning by my opponent. And indeed at that point, I would not need to clear the screen for the Kelermorph to do his job.


A guard commander f.e. needs to be within 6 " range to give orders.
Same with most aura charachters. I mean sure you can pad against little kellermorph here, but don't expect to profit overall for these units anymore, and that is why i can and will dismiss your screening argument.

And we have not even started about aura's that state that the supposed to buff units need to be wholly within.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:35:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I can't deploy within 9".

My pistols are 12" range.

Which means your character has to be within 3" of your screening troops for me to be able to target him.

If you're doing that - it's not the Kelermorph not it's rules at fault. I mean, that's like trying to blame the manufacturer because you shoved your hand in their toaster and turned it on. Both are examples of your own flawed thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for your rules example? Rules for Quicksilver Reflexes suggest that's not the case.



Note the word immediately. And when it triggers. Not when I've wounded. When I've hit. So rather than granting a separate attack step, it's effectively increasing the number of shots that weapon makes during that particular attack.

And when looked at next to Heroic Acts rule



That is only triggered when he's killed something. The bonus attacks are triggered before I roll to wound, and before you roll to save. Therefore, he can never benefit from his own buff.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:40:55


Post by: the_scotsman


I get that the Keller CAN shoot a screen with one gun and then a character with two and benefit from his own aura...but why would he want to again?

He gets 7.7 hits on average with his two guns rerolling hits.

He gets 9.0 hits with all three guns not rerolling hits.

This little tactic seems like a great way to get less mileage out of keller, while...feeling cool I guess? Ur so smurt for figuring it out, have a gold star! For example, if you pulled that vs marines, it'd be a great way to make sure your average damage dealt is not the health of most marine characters.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:42:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I'm guessing we cross posted - but as demonstrated above, the trigger order for his extra shots and buff preclude him from ever benefitting from his own buff.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:43:52


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I can't deploy within 9".

My pistols are 12" range.

Which means your character has to be within 3" of your screening troops for me to be able to target him.

If you're doing that - it's not the Kelermorph not it's rules at fault. I mean, that's like trying to blame the manufacturer because you shoved your hand in their toaster and turned it on. Both are examples of your own flawed thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for your rules example? Rules for Quicksilver Reflexes suggest that's not the case.



Note the word immediately. And when it triggers. Not when I've wounded. When I've hit. So rather than granting a separate attack step, it's effectively increasing the number of shots that weapon makes during that particular attack.

And when looked at next to Heroic Acts rule



That is only triggered when he's killed something. The bonus attacks are triggered before I roll to wound, and before you roll to save. Therefore, he can never benefit from his own buff.



Stratagem exists.

Read the whole text of the BRB for shooting attacks again.
Resolve all attacks against one target first.
ERGO SHOOT; WOUND, SAVE and the kill.
Then you have a kill, read heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you resolve the shooting against the next target, except that he allready has bagged a kill now and profits from rerolls.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:44:52


Post by: the_scotsman


And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.

I'm glad this armchair is so comfy, it's real great to general from.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:47:08


Post by: Not Online!!!


the_scotsman wrote:
And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.


Why wouldn't you have atleast 8 cp lying around?

You surely would field a battalion and you gain 3 for beeing battleforged.

Also you don't need to instantly do this, instead you can play mindgames with your opponent, which now has a choice force you wasting CP with his own stratagems that he needs, or to sacrifice a key charachter that he needs. Either way you have a significant advantage now.




Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:55:01


Post by: Daedalus81


addnid wrote:


Let it go Mad doc, I praise your efforts, but many posts here are obviously written by dudes who'd rather whine and complain than learn the ropes of 8th edition 40k. They will not really consider the points you make (which are good BTW), as they prefer to talk about power levels and GW making broken stuff and pretend they know what they are talking about.
I suspect many of the people posting here about broken stuff don't even play 40k that often.


I guess you wouldn't mind sharing your credentials since you seem eager to wave your manhood around?

You know nothing about me nor have I seen you post here, ever, so I can't imagine you have any idea about the positions I hold or the logic I employ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
OP: this is worth dismissing out of hand, You didn't even bother to come up with argument. You just stated that your random assertion is inexplicably true, and therefor 'boycott'. Even people who have no interest in this army shoulder snicker up there sleeves at you.

This kind of behavior is bad for the community, but thankfully just the theoretical dakka community, the game will shoulder on just fine.


Yes, while it was a silly way to approach the issue it was a conversation I think needed having.

I did not make any full assertions, because there is so much to this book that getting bogged down in mathhammer would take days.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:56:49


Post by: the_scotsman


Not Online!!! wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.


Why wouldn't you have atleast 8 cp lying around?

You surely would field a battalion and you gain 3 for beeing battleforged.

Also you don't need to instantly do this, instead you can play mindgames with your opponent, which now has a choice force you wasting CP with his own stratagems that he needs, or to sacrifice a key charachter that he needs. Either way you have a significant advantage now.




You do need to use Lying In Wait immediately when you set him up to get within 3", and A Perfect Ambush is not a shoot twice stratagem, it's a "shoot in your movement phase" stratagem, so you do need to declare your using your second shot before your first shot goes off. Then, when you use 3CP to Vect any kind of stratagem your opponent might have to protect the character (Grot Shields, Auspex Scan, scryerskull, forewarned, etc) they have a 5/6 chance of getting those CP's back, so no, your opponent does not need to waste CP to defend against Keller if you block it. And if he does waste CP to defend against keller...you've just spent almost twice as much on him falling flat on his face, because you spend your 5 BEFORE he declares his defensive stratagems.

I'm not sure where the mindgames come in. Forcing your opponent to screen his character before keller comes in? I'm assuming you're bringing this up as a counter to "keller must use the 2 most important stratagems in his codex to make it non-trivial to screen against him" so the idea here is you threaten keller turn 2, but actually bring in the userful units and spend the CPs on those, then keller comes in turn 3, right? If my character gets three turns on the board unmolested, I'll probably consider his job done pretty well.

And if my opponent is playing GSC and he has a Kellermorph, 160 points of handflamer acolytes, 200 points of aberrants and an abominant sitting in deep strike waiting to come down, I am positioning that character RIGHT where Helen Keller can get him if he uses those two strats. That character is going to be mooning the fething Kellermorph. "COME ON OPPONENT, PLAY MINDGAMES WITH ME, KILL THIS GUY WITH KELLER TURN 2 PLEASE"


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:57:08


Post by: Daedalus81


 Stux wrote:


You're absolutely right, and I'll wager the OP knows it. They've called for a boycott for attention, and the best way to deal with that is to not engage with it.

There's a valuable discussion to be had about power in 40k, and it will have a lot more substance when the book is out and we've had chance to play some games.

I don't want to engage with someone who opens with such a ridiculous and attention seeking premise though.


That's fair - and you're not wrong. I apologize for opening it this way. I should have taken a more reasonable tact.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:57:55


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Not Online!!! wrote:



Stratagem exists.

Read the whole text of the BRB for shooting attacks again.
Resolve all attacks against one target first.
ERGO SHOOT; WOUND, SAVE and the kill.
Then you have a kill, read heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you resolve the shooting against the next target, except that he allready has bagged a kill now and profits from rerolls.


Again. Go back and read the Kelermorph's rule. Being in a Codex, they supersede the Rulebook, and stand as an exception. If he hits, he can immediately make another roll to hit with the same weapon against the same target.

And as he doesn't trigger his other ability until he's jobbed something, there is no way he can ever benefit from his own buff.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:57:56


Post by: Formosa


Having watched the very long video about GSC, my biggest take away isn't that they will be OP, it's that they will shake up the meta in tournaments, to what extent remains to be seen, but I like that a new codex drops and the meta changes, this isn't something that has happened to every codex, grey knights were a drop in the pond, dark angels too, more variety is always a good thing.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 13:59:17


Post by: Not Online!!!


and A Perfect Ambush


Where do you need that.
He does not need more bullets, well except you want to kill a abigail style charachter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:



Stratagem exists.

Read the whole text of the BRB for shooting attacks again.
Resolve all attacks against one target first.
ERGO SHOOT; WOUND, SAVE and the kill.
Then you have a kill, read heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you resolve the shooting against the next target, except that he allready has bagged a kill now and profits from rerolls.


Again. Go back and read the Kelermorph's rule. Being in a Codex, they supersede the Rulebook, and stand as an exception. If he hits, he can immediately make another roll to hit with the same weapon against the same target.

And as he doesn't trigger his other ability until he's jobbed something, there is no way he can ever benefit from his own buff.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/770479.page

You chose one pistol, against a chaff squad.

2 pistols against a charachter.

You resolve the chaff squad first, since you decide.

You shoot, hit 2 times, hit another time with the first pistol, you resolve the three hits, wound 2 times against a guardsmen, average a killed guardsmen f.e. ---------> killed a guy, heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you go to the charachter target. -----> have 4 shots, hit 3 times because you are unlucky, reroll the 1 make another hit. 4 hits, that generate4 further hits.

This is what happens.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:03:20


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:
And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.

I'm glad this armchair is so comfy, it's real great to general from.


Keller is definitely not the lead in. He shows up turns 2 & 3 when he doesn't have to CP in by 3".

The whole split fire aura thing is irrelevant.




Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:05:18


Post by: the_scotsman


Not Online!!! wrote:
and A Perfect Ambush


Where do you need that.
He does not need more bullets, well except you want to kill a abigail style charachter.


Pretty much any time it is pointed out that Keller does not have the firepower to kill a character in terminator armor, or a marine character with cover, it is brought up that he will be fighting twice due to A Perfect Ambush. That assumption probably makes up ~10 pages of the 26 page crying about kelermorph thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
And yes, Grotsnik, all this Keller discussion does rely on the fact that the gsc player has

-at least 8cp lying around to guarantee his 60pt character makes his points back

-nothing else he wants to use the agents of vect stratagem, perfect ambush stratagem, or get within 3" stratagem on than this little 60pt character assassin. No handflamer acolytes, no guaranteed aberrant charges, nothing going on that turn with the two most important stratagems in the entire codex except guaranteeing keller his target.

I'm glad this armchair is so comfy, it's real great to general from.


Keller is definitely not the lead in. He shows up turns 2 & 3 when he doesn't have to CP in by 3".

The whole split fire aura thing is irrelevant.




You mean turn 3. Just turn 3. because the important stuff, probably 1/4 of your army, that HAS to use those stratagems, is coming in turn 2, and you're not clearing out chaff very much until then with deep strike heavy GSC. And if he waits til turn 4, your opponent gets to have a little chuckle at you.

I guess I just don't find a character assassin that waits until turn 3 to kill my character particularly frightening in the current competitive 40k meta. Games basically decided by then usually.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:08:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Not Online!!! wrote:

You chose one pistol, against a chaff squad.

2 pistols against a charachter.

You resolve the chaff squad first, since you decide.

You shoot, hit 2 times, hit another time with the first pistol, you resolve the three hits, wound 2 times against a guardsmen, average a killed guardsmen f.e. ---------> killed a guy, heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you go to the charachter target. -----> have 4 shots, hit 3 times because you are unlucky, reroll the 1 make another hit. 4 hits, that generate4 further hits.

This is what happens.


There is literally no reason at all I would ever split fire in that way. If the character is in range, he's getting all 12 barrels, right in the face. Because I want him ded. A ded as Disco. If not dedder. Sacrificing up to 4 shots to potentially re-roll 1's to hit, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At all.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:11:09


Post by: the_scotsman


Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:15:21


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

You chose one pistol, against a chaff squad.

2 pistols against a charachter.

You resolve the chaff squad first, since you decide.

You shoot, hit 2 times, hit another time with the first pistol, you resolve the three hits, wound 2 times against a guardsmen, average a killed guardsmen f.e. ---------> killed a guy, heroic deeds kicks in.

Then you go to the charachter target. -----> have 4 shots, hit 3 times because you are unlucky, reroll the 1 make another hit. 4 hits, that generate4 further hits.

This is what happens.


There is literally no reason at all I would ever split fire in that way. If the character is in range, he's getting all 12 barrels, right in the face. Because I want him ded. A ded as Disco. If not dedder. Sacrificing up to 4 shots to potentially re-roll 1's to hit, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At all.


Does it now?
Normally you would miss 2 times, now you miss one time. It is also more thought with the use of the relic pistol.
Which btw Geoff stated in his review.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:34:11


Post by: SHUPPET


Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:35:15


Post by: Cephalobeard


 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread


No, no, this thread is the absolute definition of unironic Dakka, and I love it. Don't point out irony, they might stop.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:38:51


Post by: the_scotsman


 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread


Shuppet it is UNACCEPTABLE that GW put out a new army that can do such insane things as assassinate a character and spend CP to put out 80% of the firepower of FRFSRF lasguns.

Also, this codex has access to GUARD UNITS with no orders, no catachan doctrine, no sgt harker, no relics, no warlord traits, and half CP they HAVE to be super OP!


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:51:40


Post by: SHUPPET


I also love these Schrodinger's Cultists. Where GSC are charging you with Abominants out of deepstrike and automaking that Abominant charge too, double shooting a Kelermorph and machine gunning down all your helpless HQ's that you have no options against because screens are so 2018, and also bringing in handflamers Acolytes too, that not only handflamer a unit half to death but also make the charge immediately after cause I guess we were taking casualties from the back?




They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.

So much theorycrafting and people vehemently swearing that they know what GT winners who have been playing the dex for month admit they themselves cannot possibly know at this point. Let's see how well this stuff holds up at the highest level before clamouring for nerfs and boycotts please lolol.





People are freaking out about all the wrong GSC stuff anyway imo. The Nexos is stupid good. So is C4E strat. Makes it hard to justify not taking a GSC ally for Nids. The Billermorph or spamming Burny clawbois? Bleh. Not even gonna buy the models. But we'll see where that stuff goes, so let's stop crucifying people who would like to do the rational thing and playtest your assumptions and calls of doom and gloom before agreeing them.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 14:57:21


Post by: bullyboy


beast_gts wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I am very interested to see what is in the 2-week faq for this army. Given that every other army (IIRC) had their hand flamers set to d3 shots, and that we are dealing with GW, I would not be surprised if the typo in the hand flamers from the index actually carried over to the codex (GSC hand flamers and nobody elses hand flamers were D6 in the index). If we got that, Vect made identical to the DE version, you'd be basically looking at codex kellermorph and aberrants.


CA18 made everyone's hand flamers D6.


where does it state that as I'm not seeing that change. Deathwatch certainly don't have a D6 hand flamer, it's still D3 I believe


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:10:27


Post by: catbarf


 SHUPPET wrote:
I also love these Schrodinger's Cultists. Where GSC are charging you with Abominants out of deepstrike and automaking that Abominant charge too, double shooting a Kelermorph and machine gunning down all your helpless HQ's that you have no options against because screens are so 2018, and also bringing in handflamers Acolytes too, that not only handflamer a unit half to death but also make the charge immediately after cause I guess we were taking casualties from the back?




They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.

So much theorycrafting and people vehemently swearing that they know what GT winners who have been playing the dex for month admit they themselves cannot possibly know at this point. Let's see how well this stuff holds up at the highest level before clamouring for nerfs and boycotts please lolol.





People are freaking out about all the wrong GSC stuff anyway imo. The Nexos is stupid good. So is C4E strat. Makes it hard to justify not taking a GSC ally for Nids. The Billermorph or spamming Burny clawbois? Bleh. Not even gonna buy the models. But we'll see where that stuff goes, so let's stop crucifying people who would like to do the rational thing and playtest your assumptions and calls of doom and gloom before agreeing them.


What I find really interesting is that while this thread keeps mentioning Abominants, just about all the GSC players on the GSC subreddit and Facebook group are lamenting that the Abominant got a cost hike, believe it's way too fragile for a > 100pt unit, and are trying to replace him in their lists. It'll be interesting to see who ends up being right.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:10:33


Post by: sfshilo


Since this is now going into the tactics side of things and I have had a chance to digest it....

There are some daemon lists that counter this army well. Nurgle is going to love hugging this army, I don't really see a disadvantage if the GSC army wants to get closer to me faster, means I don't need to slog across the table.

I'd say guard is still a decent option as long as you are playing something other then the morter spam heavy lists. (Take some dang tanks.)

Heavy armor lists are really going to struggle here unless they take autohit weapons to counter the charges. I may need to start running more flamethrower immolators in my sisters lists :-D


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:17:20


Post by: Silentz


Haha this thread has become a meme on Facebook 40k groups.

My favorite thing this morning is Geoff telling the masses about the "Acolyte Flamer Bomb", and then checking DakkaDakka to find a massive 8+ Page post whining about how "Broken" GSC is, and honestly I think I'm going to look into how I can become some kind of salt-fueled Lich because there's enough there to let me live forever.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:19:48


Post by: Daedalus81


Arson Fire wrote:
Alright, so it's 46.67 dead guardsmen from the gaunts, vs 23.33 dead guardsmen from the flamers. Still twice as effective.
I'm still not seeing how they break the game.

Looks like 240 points for the gaunts, + 69 points for a ravener taxi.
160 points for 20 acolytes. So that about adds up.


Right, so the overall thing is having spent twice the points to overkill. Most armies will not offer you that many models and so it's dead weight in a lot of matchups.

When you can achieve the desired effect with no support required and only 8% of the points from your list it's a considerable win.
So, what if you took half the devilgaunts? Isn't that the same? Not really, no, because you're spent your hive fleet on Jormun. That offers you the same durability as these acolytes and can be negated. Meanwhile Rusted Claw will make these guys 4+ against most things that want to hurt them.

Now, we can sit here and say that Rubric marines and Plague Marines will stop it dead cold and you're not wrong, but how many lists are taking large numbers of those to the point where it matters?
But get this - I covered my cheap chaff killing unit with 160 points. Let's make another unit. 20 Acolytes with 5 heavy rock saws - 190 points. And we'll make them Twisted Helix for S5.

10 WS3 S10 AP4 D2 attacks with NO minus to hit. But, wait, there is more. A primus pops up with them. He gives them +1 to hit and reroll wounds of 1. 10 * .833 * .998 = 8 D2 wounds that get through from JUST the rock saws. And there's **still** 30 more rending and 20 S4 AP0 attacks coming. Your durability, save, and FNP mean absolutely nothing to this unit and it made it's points back in one go.


Forgive me if I've mixed up some stuff, but this below is roughly 1400 points, which means ~550 to spend on aberrants and whatever else you want. It has buckets of CP. 3 WL traits (paid for by the +D3 CP trait). 3 Relics.

Depending on your opponent some units will ambush and some will be underground. Everything is pretty much fearless. Bump the CP generating acolytes to larger squads of neophytes if you need more cover for your characters.

Rusted Claw
[55] Iconward - gives 6+++
[87] Primus, Familiar (Crouchling - cast second and +1)
[160] 20 Acolytes, 20x Hand Flamer
[200] 20 Acolytes, 10x Hand Flamer, 10x Demo
[35] 5 Acolytes
[60] Kellermorph, Opressors Bane relic


Twisted Helix (or Four Armed Emporer)
[125] Patriarch, +1 A/T/W relic
[55] Iconward - reroll 1s to the 4+++ Aberrants
[190] 20 Acolytes, 5x Heavy Rock Saw
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[55] Clamavus
[60] Kellermorph

Four Armed Emporer - gives Vect
[80] Magus, +D3 CP
[125] Patriarch, Preternatural Speed, No Overwatch and +1 to saves relic
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes




Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:26:14


Post by: SHUPPET


 Silentz wrote:
Haha this thread has become a meme on Facebook 40k groups.

My favorite thing this morning is Geoff telling the masses about the "Acolyte Flamer Bomb", and then checking DakkaDakka to find a massive 8+ Page post whining about how "Broken" GSC is, and honestly I think I'm going to look into how I can become some kind of salt-fueled Lich because there's enough there to let me live forever.


Haven't been checking dakka, saw a similar but different post on facebook about this thread, decided to come and see how bad it truly was





it was even worse


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:38:26


Post by: Daedalus81


 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread


Have you known for me to call for kneejerk nerfs? I just got done defending GW in that there was no power creep, but this codex presents a clear indicator that the bar has really stepped up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.


Abaddon is the most severe edge case you could use to prove a point. The book with well beyond the KM at this point. He's just the executioner to finish up lists.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:46:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
Haha this thread has become a meme on Facebook 40k groups.

My favorite thing this morning is Geoff telling the masses about the "Acolyte Flamer Bomb", and then checking DakkaDakka to find a massive 8+ Page post whining about how "Broken" GSC is, and honestly I think I'm going to look into how I can become some kind of salt-fueled Lich because there's enough there to let me live forever.


Haven't been checking dakka, saw a similar but different post on facebook about this thread, decided to come and see how bad it truly was





it was even worse


As long as they're saying nice things about me


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 15:48:04


Post by: SHUPPET


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread


Have you known for me to call for kneejerk nerfs? I just got done defending GW in that there was no power creep, but this codex presents a clear indicator that the bar has really stepped up.

No, honestly I haven't known you for that at all in the past.

However that doesn't mean it's not what you're doing right now, when you're claiming a dex needs nerfs before it's even been played by the community.


 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.


Abaddon is the most severe edge case you could use to prove a point. The book with well beyond the KM at this point. He's just the executioner to finish up lists.

I really don't think Abaddon is the most severe edge case at all. Have fun killing ANYTHING of worth in my Nids list.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:02:25


Post by: Daedalus81


 SHUPPET wrote:

They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.


How long do games typically last? 3 to 4 turns? Maybe 5? You can start Rusted Claw flamerbomb acolytes on the table and it literally doesn't matter, because they will be fearless with a 4+/6+++ vs most things and only 8 points. Meanwhile other units are dropping in their face.

Does everything need to be CP'd in to move? Absolutely not. You can DS your patriach, move him D6 with a reroll and deny overwatch. Then your other units at 9" with a +2 or +3 to charge.
Can't deepstrike? Why not move 11 to 12" a turn as Twisted Helix? Flamers don't care if you run.

So much theorycrafting and people vehemently swearing that they know what GT winners who have been playing the dex for month admit they themselves cannot possibly know at this point. Let's see how well this stuff holds up at the highest level before clamouring for nerfs and boycotts please lolol.


A boycott was a poor choice of action. It's not good to destroy the middle tier of the game. Nor is it good to ratchet the top tier to a handful of lists. This is not the game any of us want.

People are freaking out about all the wrong GSC stuff anyway imo. The Nexos is stupid good. So is C4E strat. Makes it hard to justify not taking a GSC ally for Nids. The Billermorph or spamming Burny clawbois? Bleh. Not even gonna buy the models. But we'll see where that stuff goes, so let's stop crucifying people who would like to do the rational thing and playtest your assumptions and calls of doom and gloom before agreeing them.


I haven't crucified anyone.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:05:48


Post by: beast_gts


 Daedalus81 wrote:
20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

Which strat is that? I've seen 'Extra Explosives', but that's limited to 5 demo charges.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:07:02


Post by: Daedalus81


 SHUPPET wrote:

No, honestly I haven't known you for that at all in the past.

However that doesn't mean it's not what you're doing right now, when you're claiming a dex needs nerfs before it's even been played by the community.


Yea - that's fair. I've become that which I fought against the most on this forum. I'm still having a hard time shaking this feeling.

the_scotsman wrote:
I really don't think Abaddon is the most severe edge case at all. Have fun killing ANYTHING of worth in my Nids list.


Terminator armor and -1 damage is the best defense against KM. Holes can be made in other lists.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:08:45


Post by: SHUPPET


 Daedalus81 wrote:



20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

BZZZZZZZZT

Up to 10 models from that unit.

No more than 5 if throwing Demo charges.






Why bother playing against a codex, or even bother reading it properly, when you can just clamor for nerfs instead?



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:09:58


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka: "GW is always handing out kneejerk nerfs! We're the reasonable ones here!"

Also Dakka: This thread


Have you known for me to call for kneejerk nerfs? I just got done defending GW in that there was no power creep, but this codex presents a clear indicator that the bar has really stepped up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Also FYI Kellermorph shooting twice even assuming he's got double shots with rerolling hits the whole time (because I'm too lazy to do the slightly worse actual math) and abbadon is not in cover doesn't even half health him.


Abaddon is the most severe edge case you could use to prove a point. The book with well beyond the KM at this point. He's just the executioner to finish up lists.


If I Respond To a poster Saying you double shoot If you want to kill Abbadon It is not Cherrypicking an edge case.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:10:23


Post by: Daedalus81


 SHUPPET wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:



20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

BZZZZZZZZT

Up to 10 models from that unit.

No more than 5 if throwing Demo charges.

Why bother reading a codex or even ever playing against it, when you can just clamor for nerfs instead?



Yep, fair - I missed that part. It's a pretty small gotcha, because I didn't expect it to be used in such a manner.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:10:47


Post by: SHUPPET


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

They get one powerful trick on turn 2, and another one turn 3. The double shoot stratagem shares its usage with the 3D6 charge. After that anything still left in reserves autopops.


How long do games typically last? 3 to 4 turns? Maybe 5? You can start Rusted Claw flamerbomb acolytes on the table and it literally doesn't matter, because they will be fearless with a 4+/6+++ vs most things and only 8 points. Meanwhile other units are dropping in their face.

Cool so if they only get to do this stuff once, on 2 or their 5 turns, lets stop pretending that this is just the baseline stats for all these units.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:11:02


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:

If I Respond To a poster Saying you double shoot If you want to kill Abbadon It is not Cherrypicking an edge case.


My bad - I wasn't following the full set of posts.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:11:22


Post by: SHUPPET


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:



20 Demos (yes, there is a 1CP strat to toss them all)

BZZZZZZZZT

Up to 10 models from that unit.

No more than 5 if throwing Demo charges.

Why bother reading a codex or even ever playing against it, when you can just clamor for nerfs instead?



Yep, fair - I missed that part. It's a pretty small gotcha, because I didn't expect it to be used in such a manner.

Then what was even the point of bringing it up?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:13:59


Post by: Daedalus81


 SHUPPET wrote:

Then what was even the point of bringing it up?


*shrug* It was something I saw as a potential issue - I've been used to Orks throwing all their TBBs. I don't generally expect units to max out on specials.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:22:21


Post by: Asmodios


Just checking in on this glorious thread this morning. I want to thank you guys as the "nuke guard" threads were getting quite dull and gotta say calling for a nuke on a dex that hasn't been played yet is generating just the type of salt thats going to keep me occupied until the LVO coverage this weekend.

Deadalus81 isnt the hero we deserve but the hero we needed to keep us occupied on this content free week


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:24:04


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Alright, so it's 46.67 dead guardsmen from the gaunts, vs 23.33 dead guardsmen from the flamers. Still twice as effective.
I'm still not seeing how they break the game.

Looks like 240 points for the gaunts, + 69 points for a ravener taxi.
160 points for 20 acolytes. So that about adds up.


Right, so the overall thing is having spent twice the points to overkill. Most armies will not offer you that many models and so it's dead weight in a lot of matchups.

When you can achieve the desired effect with no support required and only 8% of the points from your list it's a considerable win.
So, what if you took half the devilgaunts? Isn't that the same? Not really, no, because you're spent your hive fleet on Jormun. That offers you the same durability as these acolytes and can be negated. Meanwhile Rusted Claw will make these guys 4+ against most things that want to hurt them.

Now, we can sit here and say that Rubric marines and Plague Marines will stop it dead cold and you're not wrong, but how many lists are taking large numbers of those to the point where it matters?
But get this - I covered my cheap chaff killing unit with 160 points. Let's make another unit. 20 Acolytes with 5 heavy rock saws - 190 points. And we'll make them Twisted Helix for S5.

10 WS3 S10 AP4 D2 attacks with NO minus to hit. But, wait, there is more. A primus pops up with them. He gives them +1 to hit and reroll wounds of 1. 10 * .833 * .998 = 8 D2 wounds that get through from JUST the rock saws. And there's **still** 30 more rending and 20 S4 AP0 attacks coming. Your durability, save, and FNP mean absolutely nothing to this unit and it made it's points back in one go.


Forgive me if I've mixed up some stuff, but this below is roughly 1400 points, which means ~550 to spend on aberrants and whatever else you want. It has buckets of CP. 3 WL traits (paid for by the +D3 CP trait). 3 Relics.

Depending on your opponent some units will ambush and some will be underground. Everything is pretty much fearless. Bump the CP generating acolytes to larger squads of neophytes if you need more cover for your characters.

Rusted Claw
[55] Iconward - gives 6+++
[87] Primus, Familiar (Crouchling - cast second and +1)
[160] 20 Acolytes, 20x Hand Flamer
[200] 20 Acolytes, 10x Hand Flamer, 10x Demo
[35] 5 Acolytes
[60] Kellermorph, Opressors Bane relic


Twisted Helix (or Four Armed Emporer)
[125] Patriarch, +1 A/T/W relic
[55] Iconward - reroll 1s to the 4+++ Aberrants
[190] 20 Acolytes, 5x Heavy Rock Saw
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[55] Clamavus
[60] Kellermorph

Four Armed Emporer - gives Vect
[80] Magus, +D3 CP
[125] Patriarch, Preternatural Speed, No Overwatch and +1 to saves relic
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes
[35] 5 Acolytes




So, this list has 18CP (20Cp with the warlord trait)

It spend 5CP off the bat on broodcoven and 3 relics, effectively starting with 15, yeah?

doing the rough math to try and figure out 1/2 of the power level, you're probably starting all the 5-squads of acolytes, the patriarchs, Iconwards, Clamavus, and Magus on the board in order to DS the big aco blobs, the primus (whose ability triggers on DS) and Kellers. You appear to have forgotten to put Aberrants in the list, because you put a relic buffing character on there.

Here's my biggest problem with this list off the bat: what happens if I don't get first turn?

I have thirty guard bodies standing in front of like 1000pts of characters, with a 6++. 30 GEQ is...not a big deal for most lists to get rid of ASAP.

Then, turn 2 when I blow my load, only one of those rusted claw acolytes is coming in (I do not think you can have 10 demo charges, I thought the max was 8?) because both need to use the same stratagem. Hope nobody's screening against keller, because he doesn't get to use the 2CP come in within 3" strat at all this battle. I probably want to spend 3Cp to get my 20 helix acolytes in, too.

Next turn, finally, the rest of my infantry comes in, and needs to spend CPs to do stuff again.

I am not afraid of a list that is 80 guard bodies+squishy ass characters, needs to spend 12 of its 20cp just to function, and doesn't get everything onto the table until turn 3. Even with my less competitive MEQ-style armies, I am not particularly afraid of that list. The scariest thing about it is it is a GEQ body anti-infantry skew, so if my opponent took a lot of antitank stuff they'll be sad about it.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:24:52


Post by: Carnikang


Just wait until the Codex is out, do what a normal person would do, and give it a read when in hand. Play a few games using these combos or against currently strong lists.

Then, like a reasonable person, give feedback. To GW. They have an email for just that. You can share what you've found then, and you'll have an actual position of experience to talk from.

Because honestly, I've played GSC since the start of 8th, and my sparse few wins we're with board control, and getting a really consistent 1st (when it was possible) or 2nd turn charge wave. If that failed? Wiped off the board by superior firepower, because there is no staying power in a Cult army, barring hiding and locking yourself in combat.
This Codex doesn't look like it's going to change how the army functions, or how fragile everything in the army is. It made some neat changes, but fundamentally, it is the same army with a new mechanic, as well as some new dials and knobs.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:31:31


Post by: Daedalus81


Asmodios wrote:
Just checking in on this glorious thread this morning. I want to thank you guys as the "nuke guard" threads were getting quite dull and gotta say calling for a nuke on a dex that hasn't been played yet is generating just the type of salt thats going to keep me occupied until the LVO coverage this weekend.

Deadalus81 isnt the hero we deserve but the hero we needed to keep us occupied on this content free week




I am glad to be of service. I like a difficult debate.

So, how about this?

20 Twisted Helix acolytes with 8x rock saws is 220 points. Need that Primus, too, so 300ish. Pretty much guaranteed to get into melee at a time of their choosing if screens can be busted.

16 * .833 * .777 * 2 = 21 damage to a Castellan in melee (or 14 with Sanctuary)
24 * .833 * .195 = 4 (these are all rends)

300 points and a handful of CP in a CP rich army that can murder screens.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:34:41


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Just checking in on this glorious thread this morning. I want to thank you guys as the "nuke guard" threads were getting quite dull and gotta say calling for a nuke on a dex that hasn't been played yet is generating just the type of salt thats going to keep me occupied until the LVO coverage this weekend.

Deadalus81 isnt the hero we deserve but the hero we needed to keep us occupied on this content free week




I am glad to be of service. I like a difficult debate.

So, how about this?

20 Twisted Helix acolytes with 8x rock saws is 220 points. Need that Primus, too, so 300ish. Pretty much guaranteed to get into melee at a time of their choosing if screens can be busted.

16 * .833 * .777 * 2 = 21 damage to a Castellan in melee (or 14 with Sanctuary)
24 * .833 * .195 = 4 (these are all rends)

300 points and a handful of CP in a CP rich army that can murder screens.



A StormRaven that they can't attack costs about the same. Dakkadakkadakkadakka


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:34:47


Post by: the_scotsman


Honestly, and I don't say this without really considering it, I would probably take a competently built Grey Knight force against that list with a pretty high level of confidence. Mostly because they can itemize much better against mobs of infantry that come to me than against vehicles, but like..you should probably make sure your boogeyman list is scary against the worst army in the game...


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:41:30


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, and I don't say this without really considering it, I would probably take a competently built Grey Knight force against that list with a pretty high level of confidence. Mostly because they can itemize much better against mobs of infantry that come to me than against vehicles, but like..you should probably make sure your boogeyman list is scary against the worst army in the game...


Well, see? Now everything is on it's head.

The problem isn't so much that they might struggle vs lots and lots of bolter spam, but whether or not that bolter spam can survive in the meta and gets taken.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 16:44:17


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, and I don't say this without really considering it, I would probably take a competently built Grey Knight force against that list with a pretty high level of confidence. Mostly because they can itemize much better against mobs of infantry that come to me than against vehicles, but like..you should probably make sure your boogeyman list is scary against the worst army in the game...


Well, see? Now everything is on it's head.

The problem isn't so much that they might struggle vs lots and lots of bolter spam, but whether or not that bolter spam can survive in the meta and gets taken.


Except that almost anything in the meta would gak on this list, so I assumed we were talking about this as a potential "oppressive pub stomper" of weak armies or something. The more casual a list gets, the more I find it tends to have lots of short-ranged anti infantry.

How does this fight plaguebearer/DG spam? Eldar soup? DW Storm Bolt boys? Tau gunline Fire Warrior spam with 5+ overwatch?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 17:27:41


Post by: The_Real_Chris


My 2nd edition black pamphlet Genestealer Cult army was amazing. I hope this can measure up...


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 17:37:56


Post by: PuppetSoul


 Formosa wrote:
Having watched the very long video about GSC, my biggest take away isn't that they will be OP, it's that they will shake up the meta in tournaments, to what extent remains to be seen, but I like that a new codex drops and the meta changes, this isn't something that has happened to every codex, grey knights were a drop in the pond, dark angels too, more variety is always a good thing.


The important takeaway here is that GSC doesn't just effect GSC. It's entirely possible to take a patrol of GSC that gives access to Vect with a Tyranids primary.

And Tyranids aren't in a bad place right now, as someone just won CANCON with a 150 gaunt brick. Now imagine that brick with Vect and the ability to drop up to five impenetrable 9" denial bubbles: which deny Upon Wings of Fire and other end-of-movement phase turn1 charge enablers, as well as lower tier strategies like Sisters' Repressors or Deathwatch Corvus suicide-bombing (can't move flyers over them, because they're not units so flyers don't ignore them), if your opponent goes first.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 17:58:36


Post by: Marmatag


Why would i bring a patrol? I can bring a battalion for near loyal32 prices. It's 5CP. Of course i'll be doing this with my Tyranids, because why not?

Although Cult are so strong they may outweigh my Tyranids in terms of overall points, so i might not qualify as a Tyranids list anymore.

The question is really, are the GSC genestealers better than the Tyranids Kraken Genestealers. This will essentially determine my faction in 2019.

And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing. Do they still have the stratagem to force a vehicle to explode? That's also a good one i'm excited to have in my pocket.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 18:14:31


Post by: mokoshkana


 Marmatag wrote:
And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing.
I fully expect one of two things to happen to this:
1) It gets FAQ'd to 4 CP
2) Agents of Vect returns to 3 CP


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 18:22:49


Post by: DeathKorp_Rider


If GSC is too powerful then GW will nerf them with an FAQ.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 18:37:38


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:


Except that almost anything in the meta would gak on this list, so I assumed we were talking about this as a potential "oppressive pub stomper" of weak armies or something. The more casual a list gets, the more I find it tends to have lots of short-ranged anti infantry.

How does this fight plaguebearer/DG spam? Eldar soup? DW Storm Bolt boys? Tau gunline Fire Warrior spam with 5+ overwatch?


- Overwatch is deny overwatch from patriarch

- Flamers care little about power armor. The more condensed the units - as in DW SS/SB - the better.

- Eldar is no different than anything else, really. -1 to hit is laughed off. Haywire is useless. Heavy rock saws wound grotesuqes on 2s and the D2 fits perfectly with their 4 wounds if they don't get FNP off - just the rock saw attacks can off two talos. KM deals with bikes pretty well. The only problem would be razorwings, and I suppose that's the point of this army - close combat and on the ground. I'm sure some clever soup can solve that problem though.

- I don't see DG posing a problem. Maybe a lot of cheap FNP models like PBs could be difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mokoshkana wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing.
I fully expect one of two things to happen to this:
1) It gets FAQ'd to 4 CP
2) Agents of Vect returns to 3 CP


I don't think so. Vect is unrestricted and this one requires Four Armed Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:


A StormRaven that they can't attack costs about the same. Dakkadakkadakkadakka


If those were in the meta i'd find room for a flyrant or two.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 18:44:31


Post by: mokoshkana


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing.
I fully expect one of two things to happen to this:
1) It gets FAQ'd to 4 CP
2) Agents of Vect returns to 3 CP


I don't think so. Vect is unrestricted and this one requires Four Armed Emperor.
I don't think Vect is unrestricted, or at the very least is intended to be unrestricted. This stratagem is a mirror, and it would make more sense for GW to make the CP match, even if that means FAQing Agents of Vect to specifically state it can only be employed by that Kabal.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 18:49:12


Post by: Daedalus81


 mokoshkana wrote:
I don't think Vect is unrestricted, or at the very least is intended to be unrestricted. This stratagem is a mirror, and it would make more sense for GW to make the CP match, even if that means FAQing Agents of Vect to specifically state it can only be employed by that Kabal.


No - you're right - it is Black Heart only. I've been cheated. Oh well.

*shrug* time will tell, I guess.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:12:37


Post by: drbored


Yeah I'm not about to buy 4 boxes of Acolytes and give them all hand flamers just for a gimmicky chaff-clearing blob. That's a lot of shots that they get, which can even threaten tanks and such, but... eh, it just doesn't seem like it's going to really win me any games.

The list I'm considering is more traditional. Rockgrinders with Rockolytes trundling up the table supported by some objective-capping Neophytes in Goliath Trucks. Then you've got the Jackal Alphus supporting some Achilles to get those juicy weapons hitting better (3's if they stand still, 4's if they move with the Jackal) and then a big pop-up-and-charge of Aberrants and support characters. Using a combination of underground strikes and blip markers I should be able to get into some good positions without risking a ton in case my opponent gets first turn. Will probably give them Rusted Claw to give my force a better armor save against the types of weapons that would best clear them out and also to give some biker units better shooting.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:17:05


Post by: Daedalus81


drbored wrote:
Yeah I'm not about to buy 4 boxes of Acolytes and give them all hand flamers just for a gimmicky chaff-clearing blob. That's a lot of shots that they get, which can even threaten tanks and such, but... eh, it just doesn't seem like it's going to really win me any games.


I can't even fathom the dollar cost of the armies I proposed. I think mentally I was doing fine with this book until I saw the heavy rock saw and the primus (and the spells, relics, traits, and cults).


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:17:17


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.

E - and are we forgetting that Index GSC were top tier? They have only gotten better.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:20:54


Post by: the_scotsman


 Marmatag wrote:
Why would i bring a patrol? I can bring a battalion for near loyal32 prices. It's 5CP. Of course i'll be doing this with my Tyranids, because why not?

Although Cult are so strong they may outweigh my Tyranids in terms of overall points, so i might not qualify as a Tyranids list anymore.

The question is really, are the GSC genestealers better than the Tyranids Kraken Genestealers. This will essentially determine my faction in 2019.

And hell yes, a 3CP Vect will be amazing. Do they still have the stratagem to force a vehicle to explode? That's also a good one i'm excited to have in my pocket.


"near loyal 32 prices" here means "for about 20 points fewer than a min battalion of marines" yes?

IIRC a min battalion of GSC works out to 53+76+(35x3) = 234.

Min marines are like 255?

54 points more than the loyal 32...


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:29:57


Post by: Daedalus81


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.


I wouldn't call them desperate. They do make good points and I do think games need to be played. I'm still just not sure it's going to pan out very well.

GSC bikes are pretty meh.

Ridge Runners are BS4 T5 W8 4+ for 50. 2 Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Mining Laser, Flare Launcher (6+++). Heavy Mining Laser is D3 lascannon shots for 25 points.
Take the Scrapjet, which is similar in role. BS5 T6 W9 4+ and 2D3 +1 rokkit shots with DDD and really solid melee for 90 points. No move penalties.

The Scrapjet is absolutely a good value by comparison.

I'll address the rest in a moment.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:38:54


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Except that almost anything in the meta would gak on this list, so I assumed we were talking about this as a potential "oppressive pub stomper" of weak armies or something. The more casual a list gets, the more I find it tends to have lots of short-ranged anti infantry.

How does this fight plaguebearer/DG spam? Eldar soup? DW Storm Bolt boys? Tau gunline Fire Warrior spam with 5+ overwatch?


- Overwatch is deny overwatch from patriarch

- Flamers care little about power armor. The more condensed the units - as in DW SS/SB - the better.

- Eldar is no different than anything else, really. -1 to hit is laughed off. Haywire is useless. Heavy rock saws wound grotesuqes on 2s and the D2 fits perfectly with their 4 wounds if they don't get FNP off - just the rock saw attacks can off two talos. KM deals with bikes pretty well. The only problem would be razorwings, and I suppose that's the point of this army - close combat and on the ground. I'm sure some clever soup can solve that problem though.

- I don't see DG posing a problem. Maybe a lot of cheap FNP models like PBs could be difficult.



1) Your list does not allow for a patriarch to Deep Strike, for one thing. You have to obey the 50% restriction, and you have a lot of PL in those must-DS 20 man blobs. If you think you can manage to turn off the overwatch of an entire Tau army by charging a single MODEL at them that ignores overwatch, you are some kind of 5D-chess mastermind, because most of the Tau competitive lists I've seen have A LOT of VERY SMALL units of fire warriors to maximise the "For the Greater Good"

2) Hand flamers definitely care about power armor, being S3 AP-. Deathwatch are also going to be in imperial soup lists, either behind a guard screen (that's what your hand flamers are there to clear, remember?) or deep striking themselves. You can hem and haw about maybe keller being able to use the 2cp stratagem to get in range with the 3" restriction and the 12" range guns, if your opponent lets you get past a screen with a SIX INCH RANGE GUN then you are not playing an opponent, you are moving the pieces around yourself and going "pew pew, look how op they are, oooooh noooo I need to make another dakka thread!!!" I would advise you to find a real opponent or at least switch over to playing chess in a park over dentures.

3) Grotesques have T5 or T6 with a haemonculus aura, so the rock saws wound them on 3s. 5 rock saws (which unless they change it in the codex is one more than you actually can get in 20) is 10 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding a talos on 3s, saving on 4++, and FNP'ing on 6 for...let's see... 3.7 damage. Yep. Really just wiping the floor with that Talos, aren't you - couple more squads of 20 and you might be on your way to removing that 90 point model!


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:45:46


Post by: Daedalus81


Boyz vs Acolytes

We'll call the T4 v T3 and 6+ v 5+ a wash. I dare say the T4 is better, because they paid for that and not a removable armor save.

Acolytes get 3 attacks. Boyz get 3 and usually 4. This edge is for Acolytes, because of rending. They both have easy access to +1 to hit.

I actually think Acolytes are close to proper cost IF they didn't have the wargear rules that they do. It falls apart with unit sizes of 20 that get 2 per 5 special and full access to hand flamers.


Nobz vs Aberrants

Yea...might be a little nuts. I can't really defend this. The level that these can be amped to is crazy.

Burna Boyz


...I got nothin'.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:50:29


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.


I wouldn't call them desperate. They do make good points and I do think games need to be played. I'm still just not sure it's going to pan out very well.

GSC bikes are pretty meh.

Ridge Runners are BS4 T5 W8 4+ for 50. 2 Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Mining Laser, Flare Launcher (6+++). Heavy Mining Laser is D3 lascannon shots for 25 points.
Take the Scrapjet, which is similar in role. BS5 T6 W9 4+ and 2D3 +1 rokkit shots with DDD and really solid melee for 90 points. No move penalties.

The Scrapjet is absolutely a good value by comparison.

I'll address the rest in a moment.

The scrapjet is 110 pts, the Ridge runners 84 (with the laser and stubbers so not sure where you're getting the laser cost from). If you put that 'solid melee' into action you forgo your shooting. On a shooting platform that is a bad idea. The 6+++ Flare Launcher gives the RR effectively 9.5W and Strength 5 and 6 is the rarest ranged weaponry in the game (so the T is a wash).

The 'GSC bikes are meh' is not the in depth tactical analysis I was expecting. Compare the units. Its pretty clear which is superior.

E -
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Boyz vs Acolytes

We'll call the T4 v T3 and 6+ v 5+ a wash. I dare say the T4 is better, because they paid for that and not a removable armor save.

Acolytes get 3 attacks. Boyz get 3 and usually 4. This edge is for Acolytes, because of rending. They both have easy access to +1 to hit.

I actually think Acolytes are close to proper cost IF they didn't have the wargear rules that they do. It falls apart with unit sizes of 20 that get 2 per 5 special and full access to hand flamers.


Nobz vs Aberrants

Yea...might be a little nuts. I can't really defend this. The level that these can be amped to is crazy.

Burna Boyz


...I got nothin'.


Agreed and this is my problem. I can't see a reason or rhyme for GWs balance decisions here. These units are comparable but some are flat better (Boyz v Acolytes closest, agreed) then others by a huge margin. I can't explain what they were thinking.

To be fair this isn't aimed at you Dae, its an open question really.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 19:53:15


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:

1) Your list does not allow for a patriarch to Deep Strike, for one thing. You have to obey the 50% restriction, and you have a lot of PL in those must-DS 20 man blobs. If you think you can manage to turn off the overwatch of an entire Tau army by charging a single MODEL at them that ignores overwatch, you are some kind of 5D-chess mastermind, because most of the Tau competitive lists I've seen have A LOT of VERY SMALL units of fire warriors to maximise the "For the Greater Good"


That's the beauty of ambush and the cheap cost of the units. I put the unit in DS that is most advantageous. The rest can run 10 to 12" inches on average. Last I knew it's pretty easy to charge multiple units with a 40mm base.

2) Hand flamers definitely care about power armor, being S3 AP-. Deathwatch are also going to be in imperial soup lists, either behind a guard screen (that's what your hand flamers are there to clear, remember?) or deep striking themselves. You can hem and haw about maybe keller being able to use the 2cp stratagem to get in range with the 3" restriction and the 12" range guns, if your opponent lets you get past a screen with a SIX INCH RANGE GUN then you are not playing an opponent, you are moving the pieces around yourself and going "pew pew, look how op they are, oooooh noooo I need to make another dakka thread!!!" I would advise you to find a real opponent or at least switch over to playing chess in a park over dentures.


So spicy. I'd be interested to see this list and how it does against everything else.

3) Grotesques have T5 or T6 with a haemonculus aura, so the rock saws wound them on 3s. 5 rock saws (which unless they change it in the codex is one more than you actually can get in 20) is 10 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding a talos on 3s, saving on 4++, and FNP'ing on 6 for...let's see... 3.7 damage. Yep. Really just wiping the floor with that Talos, aren't you - couple more squads of 20 and you might be on your way to removing that 90 point model!


2 per 5 for 8 total. 16 * .833 * .777 * .5 * 2 * .833 = 8.6 wounds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The scrapjet is 110 pts, the Ridge runners 84 (with the laser and stubbers so not sure where you're getting the laser cost from). If you put that 'solid melee' into action you forgo your shooting. On a shooting platform that is a bad idea. The 6+++ Flare Launcher gives the RR effectively 9.5W and Strength 5 and 6 is the rarest ranged weaponry in the game (so the T is a wash).

The 'GSC bikes are meh' is not the in depth tactical analysis I was expecting. Compare the units. Its pretty clear which is superior.


110 with two twin big shootas, which are not bad. Ignoring all small weapons it's 75 vs 90 points and the scrapjet does a better job at it. Melee is just a bonus that helps finish off something you just shot if you get the chance. You're not paying exorbitant prices for it.

Bikes were covered in the other thread. The have limited uses save for some interesting stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Agreed and this is my problem. I can't see a reason or rhyme for GWs balance decisions here. These units are comparable but some are flat better (Boyz v Acolytes closest, agreed) than others. By a huge margin. I can't explained what they were thinking.

To be fair this isn't aimed at you Dae, its an open question really.


They wrote rules to fit the kit that comes with a 1 rock saw, 1 demo, and a bunch of hand flamers.

It's the points that I can't justify. Why would they get a chainfist with no minus to hit for cheaper? Why would the hand flamer be 1 point when they just pushed the sororitas out at 3?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:08:37


Post by: An Actual Englishman


The difference in the scrapjet (or any other Ork buggy) and the GSC buggy is that I have no choice but to take those small arms. So the comparison has to include them in the cost. You're also missing the Rokkit Launch a that we must pay for (12pts). So its either 75vs 102 or 84 vs 110. Not favourable. You aren't going to finish the kind of targets your scrapjet should be shooting with its melee profile unless you really luck out on MW rolls.

Twin Big Shootas and their single variants are generally considered a waste of points FYI.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:19:05


Post by: drbored


"WHAT IS GW THINKING??"

They're thinking from the perspective of professional rules writers that have been writing rules for this game and others for decades, combining a mixture of playtesting from groups in the US and England as well as feedback from every other department in the company to create new mechanics and try to price things accordingly. They look at it from a scientific perspective and a fun perspective.

Is it good? Who knows? All this 'sky-is-falling' mentality and conjecture of comparing Orks and GSC is useless. The two armies have different stratagems, bonuses, traits, warlord abilities, relics, etc. The GSC have a deployment function that works totally different than any other in the game thus far. Every point cost is going to reflect that to some degree, in the same way that Necron pay for Reanimation Protocols whether they get to benefit from it or not.

My recommendation? Play it. See what works and what doesn't. Throw Orks up against GSC and see who wins and why. Put ACTUAL models on the table instead of just running simulations and math equations. A lot changes when you factor in line of sight, deployment, movement, and a dozen other factors that have nothing to do with d6 math.

I don't care if you use bottle caps and soda cans to represent your units to playtest it, but playtest it. If there are grievous issues, they'll show up then. THEN you can send an informed message to GW FAQ and they might just address it.

All this doom and gloom toxicity in this forum is really getting on my nerves. It's like people forget to have fun with their plastic toys.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:20:36


Post by: the_scotsman


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.

E - and are we forgetting that Index GSC were top tier? They have only gotten better.


Burna Boyz vs Hand Flamer Acolytes: Burna Boyz are definitely overpriced for what they do. They are comparable units, burna boyz are considered terrible by any metric of any unit. You can also compare practically any unit to Space Marine tacticals or GK terminators and make it look OP as well - and surely nobody on this board would do THAT.

Boyz vs Acolytes
: Best comparison seems to be choppa boy vs basic acolyte. Basically the same shooting (higher BS but lower strength on the acolyte). Ork Boyz re-roll one or both dice on the charge base. They have a 30-man unit cap and a rule that gives them +1A at 20 or more. They also have leadership equal to their number, or the number of a nearby squad. Defenses are about equal vs most small arms, with 1 better armor and 1 lower toughness on the acolyte. Acolytes get cult ambush, more and better weapon upgrades, and UL. I'd say they have about comparably good stratagems, with GSC having more ways to get in to combat and boyz having more ways to be durable (through Endless Green Tide and things like Loot It/Ard Boyz) which makes sense because the GSC are more likely to be deep striking with less inbuilt ways to get in to combat. Even with the best tactic for that, GSC still only get in to combat 36% of the time, 28% for any other tactic. Boyz of any clan get in 58% of the time - more like 76% if you're Evil Sunz.

These units seem roughly comparable to me. Which makes sense, because they are the same point cost.

Nob Vs Aberrant: I'm going to have a hard time with this one because I don't exactly know the new points costs. The nice, high def set of images we have shows only the second points page, and the primary one I'm looking at is the blurry video. So it looks like an aberrant is base cost...18 or 19, Power Pick right now is 9, can't see it on the new page, and heavy rock hammer also looks like it's in the teens. Current points via battlescribe are 27 for pick, 33 for hammer - which would make hammers 15 and picks 9.

I guess it would make the most sense to compare a big choppa nob to a pick and a killsaw to a hammer?

Aberrants are T4 W2 SV5+ with a -1 damage rule, Nobz are T4 W2 no -1 damage. The picks throw 2 WS3+ S5 AP-2 D3 damage attacks. The big choppas throw 3 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks and 1 S5 AP- D1 attack if you give them also a choppa. That's 19pts vs theoretically 27 points (unless the pick has changed drastically). Aberrants seem...like you better be using some auras, strats or combos on them to make them worth it? Gotta say the big choppa looks pretty good here.

Looking at the hammer, Aberrants throw 2 WS4+ S10 AP-3 3D attacks for 33pts, Nob with killsaw throws 3 WS4+ S10 AP-4 D2 attacks for 29pts. Seems like the Aberrant is slightly more durable, nob does slightly more damage (because of the AP and bonus choppa attack).

I'd say I like hammer aberrants a bit better than saw nobz, big choppa nobz better than pick aberrants?

GSC buggy to Ork Buggy (Shokkjump vs HML makes the most sense here probably?)

GSC buggy gets a scout move and a 6++ FNP. Gun has +1S. Also costs 40 points less - nice.

Shokkjump gets +1BS, Gun is Assault vs Heavy, and its secondary armament is a rokkit rather than 2 heavy stubbers. It gets a clan trait, which can be something as good as 1 reroll to hit, wound, and damage, and a 6++. It also teleports, which is kind of pointless.

I guess it depends on how much value you put on the ability to actually move and shoot, 40% more damage vs tanks (assuming the ridgerunner stays stationary), and a clan trait.

Warbikers to GSC bikes:

10pts gets you: BS4/WS4 T4 W2 Sv5+ M14 with 2 S3 attacks, -1 to hit vs shooting, and a guard shotgun (assault 2 12" S3 becomes S4 at 6" range)
23pts gets you: BS5/WS3 T5 W2 Sv4+ M14 with 3 S4 attacks, two dakkagunz (assault 6 18" S5)

65% more cost
73% more damage vs T4 with shooting
60% more durability vs S4 shooting
66% more damage in melee vs T4/T3

The way I see it the biggest problem with the warbike is the increased damage spike vs anti-elite weaponry (you're more likely to fire plasma equivalent antielite weapons at them, though if you do use specifically plasma they can kind of punk you with a -1 to hit stratagem and make you explode more often) and the fact that S5 guns is kind of "the awkwardest number" in current 40k with so much T3 light infantry running around. If you don't cherrypick a scenario where one of the warbike's stats is lost (shooting vs T3 targets for example) then you can see where someone might have figured it was a fair cost differential. TBF, I don't think either is a unit that has a real role/purpose in life.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:24:44


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


drbored wrote:
They're thinking from the perspective of professional rules writers that have been writing rules for this game and others for decades, combining a mixture of playtesting from groups in the US and England as well as feedback from every other department in the company to create new mechanics and try to price things accordingly. They look at it from a scientific perspective and a fun perspective.


As much as I respect the tonal change you're trying to bring to this pity party, that's a very generous interpretation of the skills associated with the GW game design interns.

Their mistakes are almost always slanted towards selling new models, almost to the point of discouraging the use of old models. If this had happened once or twice, I'd chalk it up to an honest mistake, but the pattern is pretty indisputable at this point.

Luckily they manage to 'correct' their mistakes once they've hit their sales goals, which, given the rabid nature of the fanbase, usually happens within the first few months. Clearly Knights have not hit their sales goals yet.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:31:19


Post by: Daedalus81


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The difference in the scrapjet (or any other Ork buggy) and the GSC buggy is that I have no choice but to take those small arms. So the comparison has to include them in the cost. You're also missing the Rokkit Launch a that we must pay for (12pts). So its either 75vs 102 or 84 vs 110. Not favourable. You aren't going to finish the kind of targets your scrapjet should be shooting with its melee profile unless you really luck out on MW rolls.

Twin Big Shootas and their single variants are generally considered a waste of points FYI.


Against Predator Equivalent

Rokkit kannon + wing missle
5 * 1.167 * .333 * .666 * .666 * 3 = 2.6

Heavy mining laser
2 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 1.9

Granted the laser will do better against T8. The 12 S5 BS shots are also far superior to 6 S4 stubber shots.

I don't think there is a big enough grievance on Ork buggies. T6 might not be blisteringly better than T5, but it can matter (e.g. disintegrators, heavy bolters, asscans, etc)


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:39:13


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Boyz vs Acolytes

We'll call the T4 v T3 and 6+ v 5+ a wash. I dare say the T4 is better, because they paid for that and not a removable armor save.

Acolytes get 3 attacks. Boyz get 3 and usually 4. This edge is for Acolytes, because of rending. They both have easy access to +1 to hit.

I actually think Acolytes are close to proper cost IF they didn't have the wargear rules that they do. It falls apart with unit sizes of 20 that get 2 per 5 special and full access to hand flamers.


Nobz vs Aberrants

Yea...might be a little nuts. I can't really defend this. The level that these can be amped to is crazy.

Burna Boyz


...I got nothin'.


Aberrants are twice the cost of Nobz, they HAVE to be better.
Acolytes only have 2 attacks that are rending, the third is a normal Strenght user AP - D1 attack

Before writing this you should have looked at rules first


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:50:42


Post by: Tyel


I'm thinking something like:

Models Role Unit Name
1 HQ Patriarch
1 HQ Abominant
1 HQ Primus
20 Troops Acolytes - Flamers
20 Troops Acolytes - Flamers
20 Troops Acolytes
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
1 Elites Clamavus
1 Elites Locus
1 Elites Nexos
1 Elites Kellermorph
10 Elites Abberants - 2 hammers, 6 picks.
5 Fast Attack Jackals - Demo
5 Fast Attack Jackals - Demo
1 Fast Attack Sentinel - Multi
3 Heavy Support Mortars
3 Heavy Support Mortars
3 Heavy Support Mortars

1 HQ Icon Ward
1 HQ Magus
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
1 Elites Kellermorph

Works out about 1930. 20+ command points which *might* be too many with the Nexos (which might not be necessary given 20 CP, but there are good strats to use).You have the fully souped up Mental Onslaught Timmy Bomb potential. Plenty of Brood squads to hold the back field. 3 Acolytes+Abberants for turn 2 burn and turn (one unit can't charge/sad face). Kellers to appear as appropriate - if they can't target characters they can just add screen clear potential for the Abbs.

Not married to the Demo-Jackals. 150 points is expensive versus say 70 for another 2 sentinels. Need some empirical testing to see whether this is a strategem you want to try and use every turn until they are dead.

Also tempted to upgrade the Brood Brothers to Neophytes to grab some mining lasers+webbers. This was more about theory and need to play about with the points. 4 armed emperor though doesn't hugely help backfield objective holding squads and thats probably what the brigade is going to be. Rusted claw does, so some tweaking across the detachments might be possible.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:54:36


Post by: Not Online!!!


Tyel wrote:
I'm thinking something like:

Models Role Unit Name
1 HQ Patriarch
1 HQ Abominant
1 HQ Primus
20 Troops Acolytes - Flamers
20 Troops Acolytes - Flamers
20 Troops Acolytes
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
1 Elites Clamavus
1 Elites Locus
1 Elites Nexos
1 Elites Kellermorph
10 Elites Abberants - 2 hammers, 6 picks.
5 Fast Attack Jackals - Demo
5 Fast Attack Jackals - Demo
1 Fast Attack Sentinel - Multi
3 Heavy Support Mortars
3 Heavy Support Mortars
3 Heavy Support Mortars

1 HQ Icon Ward
1 HQ Magus
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
10 Troops Brood
1 Elites Kellermorph

Works out about 1930. 20+ command points which *might* be too many with the Nexos (which might not be necessary given 20 CP, but there are good strats to use).You have the fully souped up Mental Onslaught Timmy Bomb potential. Plenty of Brood squads to hold the back field. 3 Acolytes+Abberants for turn 2 burn and turn (one unit can't charge/sad face). Kellers to appear as appropriate - if they can't target characters they can just add screen clear potential for the Abbs.

Not married to the Demo-Jackals. 150 points is expensive versus say 70 for another 2 sentinels. Need some empirical testing to see whether this is a strategem you want to try and use every turn until they are dead.

Also tempted to upgrade the Brood Brothers to Neophytes to grab some mining lasers+webbers. This was more about theory and need to play about with the points. 4 armed emperor though doesn't hugely help backfield objective holding squads and thats probably what the brigade is going to be. Rusted claw does, so some tweaking across the detachments might be possible.


I don't think it would be too many considering how much CP GSC will eat. That said, you also get a lot of value out of the GSC CP so i'd imagine that this list will perform.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:55:07


Post by: KurtAngle2


Cult of 4 Armed Emperor is a trap, GSC spends CPs like CRAZY and I really doubt you can use it throughout the game
Best Creeds are definitely Twisted Helix and Rusted Claw


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:56:22


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:


Burna Boyz vs Hand Flamer Acolytes: Burna Boyz are definitely overpriced for what they do. They are comparable units, burna boyz are considered terrible by any metric of any unit. You can also compare practically any unit to Space Marine tacticals or GK terminators and make it look OP as well - and surely nobody on this board would do THAT.

Boyz vs Acolytes
: Best comparison seems to be choppa boy vs basic acolyte. Basically the same shooting (higher BS but lower strength on the acolyte). Ork Boyz re-roll one or both dice on the charge base. They have a 30-man unit cap and a rule that gives them +1A at 20 or more. They also have leadership equal to their number, or the number of a nearby squad. Defenses are about equal vs most small arms, with 1 better armor and 1 lower toughness on the acolyte. Acolytes get cult ambush, more and better weapon upgrades, and UL. I'd say they have about comparably good stratagems, with GSC having more ways to get in to combat and boyz having more ways to be durable (through Endless Green Tide and things like Loot It/Ard Boyz) which makes sense because the GSC are more likely to be deep striking with less inbuilt ways to get in to combat. Even with the best tactic for that, GSC still only get in to combat 36% of the time, 28% for any other tactic. Boyz of any clan get in 58% of the time - more like 76% if you're Evil Sunz.

These units seem roughly comparable to me. Which makes sense, because they are the same point cost.

Nob Vs Aberrant: I'm going to have a hard time with this one because I don't exactly know the new points costs. The nice, high def set of images we have shows only the second points page, and the primary one I'm looking at is the blurry video. So it looks like an aberrant is base cost...18 or 19, Power Pick right now is 9, can't see it on the new page, and heavy rock hammer also looks like it's in the teens. Current points via battlescribe are 27 for pick, 33 for hammer - which would make hammers 15 and picks 9.

I guess it would make the most sense to compare a big choppa nob to a pick and a killsaw to a hammer?

Aberrants are T4 W2 SV5+ with a -1 damage rule, Nobz are T4 W2 no -1 damage. The picks throw 2 WS3+ S5 AP-2 D3 damage attacks. The big choppas throw 3 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks and 1 S5 AP- D1 attack if you give them also a choppa. That's 19pts vs theoretically 27 points (unless the pick has changed drastically). Aberrants seem...like you better be using some auras, strats or combos on them to make them worth it? Gotta say the big choppa looks pretty good here.

Looking at the hammer, Aberrants throw 2 WS4+ S10 AP-3 3D attacks for 33pts, Nob with killsaw throws 3 WS4+ S10 AP-4 D2 attacks for 29pts. Seems like the Aberrant is slightly more durable, nob does slightly more damage (because of the AP and bonus choppa attack).

I'd say I like hammer aberrants a bit better than saw nobz, big choppa nobz better than pick aberrants?

GSC buggy to Ork Buggy (Shokkjump vs HML makes the most sense here probably?)

GSC buggy gets a scout move and a 6++ FNP. Gun has +1S. Also costs 40 points less - nice.

Shokkjump gets +1BS, Gun is Assault vs Heavy, and its secondary armament is a rokkit rather than 2 heavy stubbers. It gets a clan trait, which can be something as good as 1 reroll to hit, wound, and damage, and a 6++. It also teleports, which is kind of pointless.

I guess it depends on how much value you put on the ability to actually move and shoot, 40% more damage vs tanks (assuming the ridgerunner stays stationary), and a clan trait.

Warbikers to GSC bikes:

10pts gets you: BS4/WS4 T4 W2 Sv5+ M14 with 2 S3 attacks, -1 to hit vs shooting, and a guard shotgun (assault 2 12" S3 becomes S4 at 6" range)
23pts gets you: BS5/WS3 T5 W2 Sv4+ M14 with 3 S4 attacks, two dakkagunz (assault 6 18" S5)

65% more cost
73% more damage vs T4 with shooting
60% more durability vs S4 shooting
66% more damage in melee vs T4/T3

The way I see it the biggest problem with the warbike is the increased damage spike vs anti-elite weaponry (you're more likely to fire plasma equivalent antielite weapons at them, though if you do use specifically plasma they can kind of punk you with a -1 to hit stratagem and make you explode more often) and the fact that S5 guns is kind of "the awkwardest number" in current 40k with so much T3 light infantry running around. If you don't cherrypick a scenario where one of the warbike's stats is lost (shooting vs T3 targets for example) then you can see where someone might have figured it was a fair cost differential. TBF, I don't think either is a unit that has a real role/purpose in life.


I think these are mostly spot on. The differing factor between boyz and acolytes are the specials and flamers.

As for Aberrants - they are 16 points and pick is indeed 9 for a total of 25. The pick also grants them a rending claw attack.

But let's look at that base cost...T4 5+/5+++ (can be boosted to 4++ with reroll 1s) AND -1 damage for 16. A nob is T4 W2 4+ for 14. I find it really hard to justify that for 2 points.

That means a disintegrator takes TWICE as many shots to kill an aberrant BEFORE you factor in 5+++ or better. That's insane. One salvo kills one or maybe two Aberrants, but straight four Nobz.

And all of this is before we *really* amp them up.




Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 20:57:24


Post by: Karol


drbored wrote:
"WHAT IS GW THINKING??"

They're thinking from the perspective of professional rules writers that have been writing rules for this game and others for decades, combining a mixture of playtesting from groups in the US and England as well as feedback from every other department in the company to create new mechanics and try to price things accordingly. They look at it from a scientific perspective and a fun perspective.
.

When anyone ever brings up this argument I look at the rules GK got, and ask two question A was there a lock out after GW made the GK codex and B where were those professionals and testers when they were writing the GK codex.


Boycotting seems like a strange idea though. It only works if you can force people to do it and this is almost always never. Those who like the codex and army or own it already will buy the rules, the rules seem good enough for some nid players to dip their toes in to GSC. The non gsc players can technically rave about the codex, but GW does not change stuff so that codex that already came out are made better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Cult of 4 Armed Emperor is a trap, GSC spends CPs like CRAZY and I really doubt you can use it throughout the game
Best Creeds are definitely Twisted Helix and Rusted Claw

But you don't have to spam all stratagems. It is enough to stop a knight rotating once to kill it. Stop wings once for BA cpts to not work. Heed if stoped means the NDK GM is now dead and next turn the GK player may not have a target to spend his CP on.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 21:02:42


Post by: Daedalus81


KurtAngle2 wrote:


Aberrants are twice the cost of Nobz, they HAVE to be better.
Acolytes only have 2 attacks that are rending, the third is a normal Strenght user AP - D1 attack

Before writing this you should have looked at rules first


Not twice - 2 points more. Sure, you need to drag a power pick along for 25, but they can get S8 without blinking on that.

I did look at the rules and I've stated exactly that on rending attacks in previous posts that you should read before attacking me.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 21:13:33


Post by: C4790M


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Gotta love those desperate defenders.

I don't remember an 8 page call to arms about any other codex release, including the Orks one that was considered strong.

Regardless of the tricks and mad combos, can someone explain why their units are flat better (more durable, more damaging and often less expensive) than those of other armies?

Compare Burna boyz to Hand Flamer Acolytes.
Compare Acolytes to Boys.
Compare Aberrants to Nobs.
Compare the GSC buggy to any of the Ork buggies.
Compare warbikers to GSC bikes.

Please do explain, anyone, how this makes any sense? These comparisons aren't even close.

This is in an army that also has literally the best stratagem in the game. Vect is fething broken, it is way, way too powerful to be given to only a few factions. I said this when it was previewed for DE and look at that they're the best mono faction army. Surprise surprise. It's literally mechanic breaking and game winning. Such a stupid, stupid move by GW.

Imbalance on this scale isn't good for the game. It isn't fun and it isn't conductive to maintaining a growing community. GW have already fethed around with Imperial Guard, particularly Catachans who still dominate. They have yet to balance Castellans. Dark Eldar are proving they have some imbalanced combinations and GW have made no effort to bring them in line. Ynarri anyone? The most broken thing in 8th ed 40k's existence with a win rate to prove it? People are losing confidence in GW and threads like this, by a poster who is level headed for the most part, are your proof.

E - and are we forgetting that Index GSC were top tier? They have only gotten better.


Index GSC were top tier? Dang, which events? As far as I know, most of the recent GSC tops were by one guy...

Also, I’d like to throw out the Syndrome argument - if everything is broken, nothing is. According to you there is so many broken things in 40K right now, namely imperial and eldar soup, that if GSC are as overpowered as they say you are, what’s the problem in having one more army that can compete at a high level?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 21:17:48


Post by: Marmatag


If all flavors of space marine didn't exist, the game is actually reasonably balanced. They're really the only ones that don't have a snowballs chance in hell in most games. Everyone else has something to at least act as a counter-meta force, or can do well with decent dice. Yeah, some armies are stronger than others, but if you delete the extreme, the game isn't nearly as imbalanced.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 21:23:16


Post by: luke1705


Genestealer cult is a good codex. Even a meta-shifting one perhaps (although Orks was already doing much of the same thing, so having more Ork-like armies is going to....do not much more for the meta than having twice as many actual ork armies.

Is it broken? No. Screen properly. Block deep strike like you always have and you’ll be fine. If you’re in that corner or the world that is still allowing deep strike turn 1 outside of your own deployment zone....well yeah I’d think that was broken too if I was an army going second against this deep strike stuff.

As is, you’re not going to see the win rate of GSC be all that high. It is not a “face roll all over the keyboard” kind of army. Good generals will be able to take advantage of the power of the book, but average to poor players will struggle to see this as even a good book after playing some games with it.

Boycott whatever you want. I love this army and GW knocked it out of the park thematically. Having rules that work well in game is just icing on the cake.

And just for the record, it’s not codex creep when most other books have good things going for them (sorry Grey knights). The perceived power of this book is more due to the current meta. They match up well against it, so of course the book will look good.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 21:24:36


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:


Burna Boyz vs Hand Flamer Acolytes: Burna Boyz are definitely overpriced for what they do. They are comparable units, burna boyz are considered terrible by any metric of any unit. You can also compare practically any unit to Space Marine tacticals or GK terminators and make it look OP as well - and surely nobody on this board would do THAT.

Boyz vs Acolytes
: Best comparison seems to be choppa boy vs basic acolyte. Basically the same shooting (higher BS but lower strength on the acolyte). Ork Boyz re-roll one or both dice on the charge base. They have a 30-man unit cap and a rule that gives them +1A at 20 or more. They also have leadership equal to their number, or the number of a nearby squad. Defenses are about equal vs most small arms, with 1 better armor and 1 lower toughness on the acolyte. Acolytes get cult ambush, more and better weapon upgrades, and UL. I'd say they have about comparably good stratagems, with GSC having more ways to get in to combat and boyz having more ways to be durable (through Endless Green Tide and things like Loot It/Ard Boyz) which makes sense because the GSC are more likely to be deep striking with less inbuilt ways to get in to combat. Even with the best tactic for that, GSC still only get in to combat 36% of the time, 28% for any other tactic. Boyz of any clan get in 58% of the time - more like 76% if you're Evil Sunz.

These units seem roughly comparable to me. Which makes sense, because they are the same point cost.

Nob Vs Aberrant: I'm going to have a hard time with this one because I don't exactly know the new points costs. The nice, high def set of images we have shows only the second points page, and the primary one I'm looking at is the blurry video. So it looks like an aberrant is base cost...18 or 19, Power Pick right now is 9, can't see it on the new page, and heavy rock hammer also looks like it's in the teens. Current points via battlescribe are 27 for pick, 33 for hammer - which would make hammers 15 and picks 9.

I guess it would make the most sense to compare a big choppa nob to a pick and a killsaw to a hammer?

Aberrants are T4 W2 SV5+ with a -1 damage rule, Nobz are T4 W2 no -1 damage. The picks throw 2 WS3+ S5 AP-2 D3 damage attacks. The big choppas throw 3 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks and 1 S5 AP- D1 attack if you give them also a choppa. That's 19pts vs theoretically 27 points (unless the pick has changed drastically). Aberrants seem...like you better be using some auras, strats or combos on them to make them worth it? Gotta say the big choppa looks pretty good here.

Looking at the hammer, Aberrants throw 2 WS4+ S10 AP-3 3D attacks for 33pts, Nob with killsaw throws 3 WS4+ S10 AP-4 D2 attacks for 29pts. Seems like the Aberrant is slightly more durable, nob does slightly more damage (because of the AP and bonus choppa attack).

I'd say I like hammer aberrants a bit better than saw nobz, big choppa nobz better than pick aberrants?

GSC buggy to Ork Buggy (Shokkjump vs HML makes the most sense here probably?)

GSC buggy gets a scout move and a 6++ FNP. Gun has +1S. Also costs 40 points less - nice.

Shokkjump gets +1BS, Gun is Assault vs Heavy, and its secondary armament is a rokkit rather than 2 heavy stubbers. It gets a clan trait, which can be something as good as 1 reroll to hit, wound, and damage, and a 6++. It also teleports, which is kind of pointless.

I guess it depends on how much value you put on the ability to actually move and shoot, 40% more damage vs tanks (assuming the ridgerunner stays stationary), and a clan trait.

Warbikers to GSC bikes:

10pts gets you: BS4/WS4 T4 W2 Sv5+ M14 with 2 S3 attacks, -1 to hit vs shooting, and a guard shotgun (assault 2 12" S3 becomes S4 at 6" range)
23pts gets you: BS5/WS3 T5 W2 Sv4+ M14 with 3 S4 attacks, two dakkagunz (assault 6 18" S5)

65% more cost
73% more damage vs T4 with shooting
60% more durability vs S4 shooting
66% more damage in melee vs T4/T3

The way I see it the biggest problem with the warbike is the increased damage spike vs anti-elite weaponry (you're more likely to fire plasma equivalent antielite weapons at them, though if you do use specifically plasma they can kind of punk you with a -1 to hit stratagem and make you explode more often) and the fact that S5 guns is kind of "the awkwardest number" in current 40k with so much T3 light infantry running around. If you don't cherrypick a scenario where one of the warbike's stats is lost (shooting vs T3 targets for example) then you can see where someone might have figured it was a fair cost differential. TBF, I don't think either is a unit that has a real role/purpose in life.


I think these are mostly spot on. The differing factor between boyz and acolytes are the specials and flamers.

As for Aberrants - they are 16 points and pick is indeed 9 for a total of 25. The pick also grants them a rending claw attack.

But let's look at that base cost...T4 5+/5+++ (can be boosted to 4++ with reroll 1s) AND -1 damage for 16. A nob is T4 W2 4+ for 14. I find it really hard to justify that for 2 points.

That means a disintegrator takes TWICE as many shots to kill an aberrant BEFORE you factor in 5+++ or better. That's insane. One salvo kills one or maybe two Aberrants, but straight four Nobz.

And all of this is before we *really* amp them up.




Indeed. This is where I went, the durability seems way higher on Aberrants and its for 2pts extra. Just seems mad to me.

Thanks both for humouring me and doing the comparisons though, you're gems.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 21:36:02


Post by: Tyel


KurtAngle2 wrote:
Cult of 4 Armed Emperor is a trap, GSC spends CPs like CRAZY and I really doubt you can use it throughout the game
Best Creeds are definitely Twisted Helix and Rusted Claw


I agree it might be something you want to splash - but I don't know about it being a trap.
AoV is a game winning ability. You don't need to run it through a whole game - 1 or 2 is usually decisive.

Most games are decided one way or the or other by the end of turn 3.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:05:24


Post by: Marmatag


Spending CP like crazy when you have relatively easy access to CP suggests good stratagems doesn't it? These are very good stratagems.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:13:50


Post by: C4790M


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:


Burna Boyz vs Hand Flamer Acolytes: Burna Boyz are definitely overpriced for what they do. They are comparable units, burna boyz are considered terrible by any metric of any unit. You can also compare practically any unit to Space Marine tacticals or GK terminators and make it look OP as well - and surely nobody on this board would do THAT.

Boyz vs Acolytes
: Best comparison seems to be choppa boy vs basic acolyte. Basically the same shooting (higher BS but lower strength on the acolyte). Ork Boyz re-roll one or both dice on the charge base. They have a 30-man unit cap and a rule that gives them +1A at 20 or more. They also have leadership equal to their number, or the number of a nearby squad. Defenses are about equal vs most small arms, with 1 better armor and 1 lower toughness on the acolyte. Acolytes get cult ambush, more and better weapon upgrades, and UL. I'd say they have about comparably good stratagems, with GSC having more ways to get in to combat and boyz having more ways to be durable (through Endless Green Tide and things like Loot It/Ard Boyz) which makes sense because the GSC are more likely to be deep striking with less inbuilt ways to get in to combat. Even with the best tactic for that, GSC still only get in to combat 36% of the time, 28% for any other tactic. Boyz of any clan get in 58% of the time - more like 76% if you're Evil Sunz.

These units seem roughly comparable to me. Which makes sense, because they are the same point cost.

Nob Vs Aberrant: I'm going to have a hard time with this one because I don't exactly know the new points costs. The nice, high def set of images we have shows only the second points page, and the primary one I'm looking at is the blurry video. So it looks like an aberrant is base cost...18 or 19, Power Pick right now is 9, can't see it on the new page, and heavy rock hammer also looks like it's in the teens. Current points via battlescribe are 27 for pick, 33 for hammer - which would make hammers 15 and picks 9.

I guess it would make the most sense to compare a big choppa nob to a pick and a killsaw to a hammer?

Aberrants are T4 W2 SV5+ with a -1 damage rule, Nobz are T4 W2 no -1 damage. The picks throw 2 WS3+ S5 AP-2 D3 damage attacks. The big choppas throw 3 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks and 1 S5 AP- D1 attack if you give them also a choppa. That's 19pts vs theoretically 27 points (unless the pick has changed drastically). Aberrants seem...like you better be using some auras, strats or combos on them to make them worth it? Gotta say the big choppa looks pretty good here.

Looking at the hammer, Aberrants throw 2 WS4+ S10 AP-3 3D attacks for 33pts, Nob with killsaw throws 3 WS4+ S10 AP-4 D2 attacks for 29pts. Seems like the Aberrant is slightly more durable, nob does slightly more damage (because of the AP and bonus choppa attack).

I'd say I like hammer aberrants a bit better than saw nobz, big choppa nobz better than pick aberrants?

GSC buggy to Ork Buggy (Shokkjump vs HML makes the most sense here probably?)

GSC buggy gets a scout move and a 6++ FNP. Gun has +1S. Also costs 40 points less - nice.

Shokkjump gets +1BS, Gun is Assault vs Heavy, and its secondary armament is a rokkit rather than 2 heavy stubbers. It gets a clan trait, which can be something as good as 1 reroll to hit, wound, and damage, and a 6++. It also teleports, which is kind of pointless.

I guess it depends on how much value you put on the ability to actually move and shoot, 40% more damage vs tanks (assuming the ridgerunner stays stationary), and a clan trait.

Warbikers to GSC bikes:

10pts gets you: BS4/WS4 T4 W2 Sv5+ M14 with 2 S3 attacks, -1 to hit vs shooting, and a guard shotgun (assault 2 12" S3 becomes S4 at 6" range)
23pts gets you: BS5/WS3 T5 W2 Sv4+ M14 with 3 S4 attacks, two dakkagunz (assault 6 18" S5)

65% more cost
73% more damage vs T4 with shooting
60% more durability vs S4 shooting
66% more damage in melee vs T4/T3

The way I see it the biggest problem with the warbike is the increased damage spike vs anti-elite weaponry (you're more likely to fire plasma equivalent antielite weapons at them, though if you do use specifically plasma they can kind of punk you with a -1 to hit stratagem and make you explode more often) and the fact that S5 guns is kind of "the awkwardest number" in current 40k with so much T3 light infantry running around. If you don't cherrypick a scenario where one of the warbike's stats is lost (shooting vs T3 targets for example) then you can see where someone might have figured it was a fair cost differential. TBF, I don't think either is a unit that has a real role/purpose in life.


I think these are mostly spot on. The differing factor between boyz and acolytes are the specials and flamers.

As for Aberrants - they are 16 points and pick is indeed 9 for a total of 25. The pick also grants them a rending claw attack.

But let's look at that base cost...T4 5+/5+++ (can be boosted to 4++ with reroll 1s) AND -1 damage for 16. A nob is T4 W2 4+ for 14. I find it really hard to justify that for 2 points.

That means a disintegrator takes TWICE as many shots to kill an aberrant BEFORE you factor in 5+++ or better. That's insane. One salvo kills one or maybe two Aberrants, but straight four Nobz.

And all of this is before we *really* amp them up.




Just looking at the base cost of the aberrant isn’t really fair - their cheapest weapon option is the pick, so at minimum you’re paying 25ppm. A nob can take 2 free choppers for a total of 14ppm


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:16:40


Post by: JNAProductions


So, for 154 points, you get 11 Nobz with Double Choppas.
For 150, you get 6 Pick-equipped Aberrants.

We'll assume the Aberrants charge the Nobz, and get to swing first.

12 attacks with each weapon
8 hits
4 wounds at AP-2 Dd3, call it 2 at AP-1 D1 and 2 at AP-4 D1.

That's about four dead Nobz.

Nobz swing back, with the remaining 7...

35 attacks
~24 hit
12 wound
8 failed saves
~5 or 6 failed FNP
That's nearly half the Aberrants dead. And the Nobz DIDN'T get the charge.

You can't just ignore mandatory equipment.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:18:30


Post by: Daedalus81


 Marmatag wrote:
Spending CP like crazy when you have relatively easy access to CP suggests good stratagems doesn't it? These are very good stratagems.


2 per turn for turns 2 and 3 for 3" deploy
3 per turn for turns 2 and 3 for D6" deploy
2 per turn for 4+++ aberrants for turns 2 and 3
3 for vect
1 for return D6 models to a Troops units - probably 2 times
1 for 2 additional WL traits (one of which will be +D3 CP)
CP rerolls if you're using biophagus or critical charges - 4 for this


The army makes more sense with a restricted CP system. As it stands 20 CP is what you might expect to start with and get to 24 by turn 4 with the Nexos.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:19:31


Post by: SHUPPET


 Marmatag wrote:
The question is really, are the GSC genestealers better than the Tyranids Kraken Genestealers. This will essentially determine my faction in 2019.

No way, though I think I'll probably be running a unit of both.

PuppetSoul wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Having watched the very long video about GSC, my biggest take away isn't that they will be OP, it's that they will shake up the meta in tournaments, to what extent remains to be seen, but I like that a new codex drops and the meta changes, this isn't something that has happened to every codex, grey knights were a drop in the pond, dark angels too, more variety is always a good thing.


The important takeaway here is that GSC doesn't just effect GSC. It's entirely possible to take a patrol of GSC that gives access to Vect with a Tyranids primary.

And Tyranids aren't in a bad place right now, as someone just won CANCON with a 150 gaunt brick. Now imagine that brick with Vect and the ability to drop up to five impenetrable 9" denial bubbles: which deny Upon Wings of Fire and other end-of-movement phase turn1 charge enablers, as well as lower tier strategies like Sisters' Repressors or Deathwatch Corvus suicide-bombing (can't move flyers over them, because they're not units so flyers don't ignore them), if your opponent goes first.

Yes. This is a big thing for me too. Tyranids are now kinda gonna be punished for not bringing GSC when before it was just a bit more flavorful probably slightly more powerful. If you're leaving a Nexos and Vect at home, you're probably making a mistake. That doesn't mean Vect on a mid tier army like Tyranids is going to be enough to break the game (Drukhari would still be aces even without Vect, the game manages to progress even with it), but combined with the gakky soup rules, its once again pushing us to take a detachment purely for the strongest stuff, similar to how Drukhari is now used, which is my least favorite thing about this goddamn edition, and I'd been happy so far that Nids had managed to avoid it, and without C4E and Nexos that would probably still be the case with this new dex. It annoys me.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:19:44


Post by: JNAProductions


Assuming your numbers are accurate, Daedalus, even with triple Battalions, you're probably out by the end of three.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:29:19


Post by: SHUPPET


And when you mix in Hive Guard and Kraken Stealers, that CP will all but vanish


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:35:10


Post by: Daedalus81


 JNAProductions wrote:
So, for 154 points, you get 11 Nobz with Double Choppas.
For 150, you get 6 Pick-equipped Aberrants.

We'll assume the Aberrants charge the Nobz, and get to swing first.

12 attacks with each weapon
8 hits
4 wounds at AP-2 Dd3, call it 2 at AP-1 D1 and 2 at AP-4 D1.

That's about four dead Nobz.

Nobz swing back, with the remaining 7...

35 attacks
~24 hit
12 wound
8 failed saves
~5 or 6 failed FNP
That's nearly half the Aberrants dead. And the Nobz DIDN'T get the charge.

You can't just ignore mandatory equipment.


You're off a bit.

Hypermorph
6 * .666 * .833 * .666 * 2 = 4.4
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.3 //tail

Other 5 Aberrants
10 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 7.4
5 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 1.1 //rending claws, but didn't bother with math on rending
5 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 1.5 //tail

That's 14.7 wounds or at least 7 to 8 nobs from unbuffed aberrants.

1 Nob does 1 wound to an aberrant. So, 11 of them could ace a unit of aberrants *if* they were all choppas and got the drop on the, but you've employed the one weakness that they should be protected from, which is mass 1 damage attacks. Try anything above 1 damage and it quickly becomes absolutely absurd (moreso when you account for real world buffs).






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming your numbers are accurate, Daedalus, even with triple Battalions, you're probably out by the end of three.


Yes - I expect that to be the case. As is usually the case in most games. If Vect isn't required that's 3 available. There's some flex in there.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:37:02


Post by: JNAProductions


Where do you get 10 Attacks from 4 Abberants?

I did forget that Nobs are only T4, though.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:40:02


Post by: Daedalus81


 JNAProductions wrote:
Where do you get 10 Attacks from 4 Abberants?

I did forget that Nobs are only T4, though.


Sorry - 5 aberrants plus hypermorph. Edited it since you used 6 initially.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:41:37


Post by: Marmatag


Because the stratagems are fantastic. That's the point.

Shooting twice? Fantastic.
Guaranteed ambush charge? Fantastic.
Cheaper Vect? Fantastic.

These are S tier stratagems.

EDIT - and before someone loses their mind and says shooting twice isn't GSC, i know, it's Nids. To repeat: I KNOW. thanks


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/05 23:52:52


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


I guess I mostly don't care.

Competitive 40k is always a flavor of the month situation, or close enough to it.

I roll dice casually and play like-minded people. No one I know can afford to buy all these new models, so it's unlikely I'll see them. Even still, I'd try playing against them.

This isn't a good game to play competitively, if one is expecting balance. By all means don't support GW if you're unhappy, but maybe be a bit more realistic with what you expect and what GW is offering.

Not trying to be condescending, just my two cents.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 00:08:02


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:


Aberrants are twice the cost of Nobz, they HAVE to be better.
Acolytes only have 2 attacks that are rending, the third is a normal Strenght user AP - D1 attack

Before writing this you should have looked at rules first


Not twice - 2 points more. Sure, you need to drag a power pick along for 25, but they can get S8 without blinking on that.

I did look at the rules and I've stated exactly that on rending attacks in previous posts that you should read before attacking me.



False since you can't even equip Aberrants with nothing and they are FORCED to get power picks as the cheapest choice there, otherwise I would be comparing Space Marines (13 PPM with free weapons) with Necron Immortals (who clock at 8 PPM without weapons) and say that necron immortals are OP.

When people say that these whines come from low skilled players they do not lie


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 00:14:40


Post by: the_scotsman


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
drbored wrote:
They're thinking from the perspective of professional rules writers that have been writing rules for this game and others for decades, combining a mixture of playtesting from groups in the US and England as well as feedback from every other department in the company to create new mechanics and try to price things accordingly. They look at it from a scientific perspective and a fun perspective.


As much as I respect the tonal change you're trying to bring to this pity party, that's a very generous interpretation of the skills associated with the GW game design interns.

Their mistakes are almost always slanted towards selling new models, almost to the point of discouraging the use of old models. If this had happened once or twice, I'd chalk it up to an honest mistake, but the pattern is pretty indisputable at this point.

Luckily they manage to 'correct' their mistakes once they've hit their sales goals, which, given the rabid nature of the fanbase, usually happens within the first few months. Clearly Knights have not hit their sales goals yet.


Yeah, why, in this release alone, let's see....

ONE

of the models is considered to be actually problematic by people who aren't just blanket condemning the whole codex.

That's definitely...something.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 00:42:25


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


And the pattern is certainly disputable.

Were all the new ork models OP? Just go backward and ask that question of all new models. The answer is no.

Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're crap. Sometimes they're OP, sometimes they're passable.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 00:56:53


Post by: Daedalus81


KurtAngle2 wrote:


False since you can't even equip Aberrants with nothing and they are FORCED to get power picks as the cheapest choice there, otherwise I would be comparing Space Marines (13 PPM with free weapons) with Necron Immortals (who clock at 8 PPM without weapons) and say that necron immortals are OP.

When people say that these whines come from low skilled players they do not lie


Sure champ. I'm well aware they're required to take weapons.

The base cost of the unit represents it's durability. Nobz are 14. Aberrants are 16. Whether the Nobz take Choppas or Klaws is completely irrelevant to a direct comparison of the base cost.

You *could* have a point if the weapons the Aberrants got were garbage, but they're not. If you want to make a like for like comparison then you give the Nobz a similar weapon.

32 for an Aberrant with a hammer.
27 for a Nob with a PK.

//What a Nob with PK/chooppa does to an Aberrant
3 * .5 * .833 * 1 * .666 = 0.83
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.2


//What an Aberrant with a Hammer does to a Nob
2 * .5 * .833 * 3 = 2.5
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.3

Zoinks. One of these things is not like the other.

And we haven't even made it to the buffs.

+1A for Nobz from Warpath. +1A and +1S for Aberrants.
+1 to hit from Nob Banner. +1 to hit and reroll 1s to wound for Aberrants
5++ for shooting only for the Nobz. 4+++ with reroll 1s.

And there's more than that.



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 01:22:34


Post by: SHUPPET


the_scotsman wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
drbored wrote:
They're thinking from the perspective of professional rules writers that have been writing rules for this game and others for decades, combining a mixture of playtesting from groups in the US and England as well as feedback from every other department in the company to create new mechanics and try to price things accordingly. They look at it from a scientific perspective and a fun perspective.


As much as I respect the tonal change you're trying to bring to this pity party, that's a very generous interpretation of the skills associated with the GW game design interns.

Their mistakes are almost always slanted towards selling new models, almost to the point of discouraging the use of old models. If this had happened once or twice, I'd chalk it up to an honest mistake, but the pattern is pretty indisputable at this point.

Luckily they manage to 'correct' their mistakes once they've hit their sales goals, which, given the rabid nature of the fanbase, usually happens within the first few months. Clearly Knights have not hit their sales goals yet.


Yeah, why, in this release alone, let's see....

ONE

of the models is considered to be actually problematic by people who aren't just blanket condemning the whole codex.

That's definitely...something.


That one model is the Nexos right?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 01:36:30


Post by: Imateria


 SHUPPET wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
drbored wrote:
They're thinking from the perspective of professional rules writers that have been writing rules for this game and others for decades, combining a mixture of playtesting from groups in the US and England as well as feedback from every other department in the company to create new mechanics and try to price things accordingly. They look at it from a scientific perspective and a fun perspective.


As much as I respect the tonal change you're trying to bring to this pity party, that's a very generous interpretation of the skills associated with the GW game design interns.

Their mistakes are almost always slanted towards selling new models, almost to the point of discouraging the use of old models. If this had happened once or twice, I'd chalk it up to an honest mistake, but the pattern is pretty indisputable at this point.

Luckily they manage to 'correct' their mistakes once they've hit their sales goals, which, given the rabid nature of the fanbase, usually happens within the first few months. Clearly Knights have not hit their sales goals yet.


Yeah, why, in this release alone, let's see....

ONE

of the models is considered to be actually problematic by people who aren't just blanket condemning the whole codex.

That's definitely...something.


That one model is the Nexos right?

Have I missed something? What about the Nexos rules make him problematic?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 01:40:21


Post by: Phaeron Gukk


I don't know if they meant the Nexos, but generally speaking CP regen stapled onto the HQ you were already gonna take for your barebones battalion to access Gribbly Vect for your Tyranid army reads as an obnoxious auto-take.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 01:43:35


Post by: SHUPPET


 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
I don't know if they meant the Nexos, but generally speaking CP regen stapled onto the HQ you were already gonna take for your barebones Tyranid ally battalion to access Gribbly Vect comes off as obnoxiously auto-take in nature.

Yeah, I said basically this a page ago. As a Tyranid main who would like GSC to be a fun side army to ally in an option here and there, Nexos + Vect seem to be the main offenders of breaking that balance and actively hurting me for not taking GSC. There's nothing else in the dex I feel compelled to take for anything other than a bit of fun.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 01:51:03


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:


False since you can't even equip Aberrants with nothing and they are FORCED to get power picks as the cheapest choice there, otherwise I would be comparing Space Marines (13 PPM with free weapons) with Necron Immortals (who clock at 8 PPM without weapons) and say that necron immortals are OP.

When people say that these whines come from low skilled players they do not lie


Sure champ. I'm well aware they're required to take weapons.

The base cost of the unit represents it's durability. Nobz are 14. Aberrants are 16. Whether the Nobz take Choppas or Klaws is completely irrelevant to a direct comparison of the base cost.

You *could* have a point if the weapons the Aberrants got were garbage, but they're not. If you want to make a like for like comparison then you give the Nobz a similar weapon.

32 for an Aberrant with a hammer.
27 for a Nob with a PK.

//What a Nob with PK/chooppa does to an Aberrant
3 * .5 * .833 * 1 * .666 = 0.83
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.2


//What an Aberrant with a Hammer does to a Nob
2 * .5 * .833 * 3 = 2.5
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.3

Zoinks. One of these things is not like the other.

And we haven't even made it to the buffs.

+1A for Nobz from Warpath. +1A and +1S for Aberrants.
+1 to hit from Nob Banner. +1 to hit and reroll 1s to wound for Aberrants
5++ for shooting only for the Nobz. 4+++ with reroll 1s.

And there's more than that.



Sure, the base cost of the model is just its durability. They never fluctuate that base cost around what other models in a codex have access to the shared weaponry. Which is why the durability cost of a 3+ save eldar based on Dark reapers is 5. And the durability of a rhino is the same as the durability of a vindicator!


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 01:51:40


Post by: Imateria


I can certianly see myself wanting to take a Nexos anyway for messing around with the blips, the CP regen is nice but generally far less powerful now since the FAQ whilst the 4 Armed Emporer seems like a good option to go with for your assault units anyway. He seems like a decent character but I'm not sure I'm seeing enough to make him an autotake myself.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 01:52:45


Post by: Carnikang


 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
I don't know if they meant the Nexos, but generally speaking CP regen stapled onto the HQ you were already gonna take for your barebones battalion to access Gribbly Vect for your Tyranid army reads as an obnoxious auto-take.


Nexos is an elite. As are most of the new characters we are getting. The only new HQ is the Jackal Alphas if I remember right.

Again, it's on a 6+ normally, modified if you take two other characters (Primus to make your CP 5+ and the clamavas to make opponents a 5+), and it still restricted by the rule allowing only 1 CP regeneration a turn by abilities like that.

Btw, above, someone said Abberants can get a rerolls of 1 on wounds? How?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 02:00:48


Post by: Phaeron Gukk


So the Four-Armed Emperor Gang will (probably) consist of a Nexos, Kellermorph and a blob of Abberants all led by an Abominant. It's still garbage design when allies are considered, but at least they don't get +5CP?



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 02:01:23


Post by: Quickjager


What Ork threads are people going on about? The only threads I legit remember are the new kits stats sucking, Prime orks possibly existing, Ork hitting on 6s causing another hit. I feel like a large portion of you are just making up the idea there was an OP ORK THREAD, in the same vein as people saying I make everything about GK like donkey-caves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found ONE thread on Traktor Kannon autohits.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 02:15:14


Post by: SHUPPET


 Quickjager wrote:
What Ork threads are people going on about? The only threads I legit remember are the new kits stats sucking, Prime orks possibly existing, Ork hitting on 6s causing another hit. I feel like a large portion of you are just making up the idea there was an OP ORK THREAD, in the same vein as people saying I make everything about GK like donkey-caves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found ONE thread on Traktor Kannon autohits.


I don't think it got it's own thread like this one, it was just scattered all through them. This thread is just the natural expansion of dakka growing more confident in it's ignorance even though people seem to be getting more things wrong than ever. It's actually quite marvelous to watch.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 02:27:08


Post by: Quickjager


That I could agree with, it being scattered through threads itself.

Not going to be going through those threads though, the search function breaks for me after the 7 page.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 02:37:37


Post by: SHUPPET


 Quickjager wrote:
That I could agree with, it being scattered through threads itself.

Not going to be going through those threads though, the search function breaks for me after the 7 page.

I find the search function difficult to use on here too, and results difficult to quickly sift through. I actually find it easier to use sitesearch on google and look for keywords (those keywords often being the names of certain... profound "posters" ) .



To be honest though, while it did exist and was scattered through threads with people claiming they would be too OP, I had the same experience you did, there wasn't anywhere near as much complaining about Orks being too OP at all. I actually thought the narrative on Dakka was the opposite, all things considered. It was the more competent groups I follow that recognised the codex as strong, but on here I just heard a lot of whining about how weak the new Ork codex was. I notice that it's quite a few Ork posters in this thread too making quite a few very bold declarations once again. Lol.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 02:41:25


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:


Sure, the base cost of the model is just its durability. They never fluctuate that base cost around what other models in a codex have access to the shared weaponry. Which is why the durability cost of a 3+ save eldar based on Dark reapers is 5. And the durability of a rhino is the same as the durability of a vindicator!


Ah, so I guess IS aren't good for their cost. They're just surrounded by bad units!


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 02:52:08


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Sure, the base cost of the model is just its durability. They never fluctuate that base cost around what other models in a codex have access to the shared weaponry. Which is why the durability cost of a 3+ save eldar based on Dark reapers is 5. And the durability of a rhino is the same as the durability of a vindicator!


Ah, so I guess IS aren't good for their cost. They're just surrounded by bad units!

Literally all the other units are bad, of course.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 04:13:24


Post by: tneva82


 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming your numbers are accurate, Daedalus, even with triple Battalions, you're probably out by the end of three.


So about same as orks. And as by then game is pretty much done with winner just mobbing up no big deal. Even optimal


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 07:09:27


Post by: SHUPPET


tneva82 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.


Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.

at what point were they able to nerf Knights?

tneva82 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming your numbers are accurate, Daedalus, even with triple Battalions, you're probably out by the end of three.


So about same as orks. And as by then game is pretty much done with winner just mobbing up no big deal. Even optimal

Is that genuinely how all your matches go?



Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 07:27:35


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 SHUPPET wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.


Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.

at what point were they able to nerf Knights?

tneva82 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming your numbers are accurate, Daedalus, even with triple Battalions, you're probably out by the end of three.


So about same as orks. And as by then game is pretty much done with winner just mobbing up no big deal. Even optimal

Is that genuinely how all your matches go?


Did you forget that Chapter Approved was released not too long ago?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 07:34:18


Post by: An Actual Englishman


the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

Sure champ. I'm well aware they're required to take weapons.

The base cost of the unit represents it's durability. Nobz are 14. Aberrants are 16. Whether the Nobz take Choppas or Klaws is completely irrelevant to a direct comparison of the base cost.

You *could* have a point if the weapons the Aberrants got were garbage, but they're not. If you want to make a like for like comparison then you give the Nobz a similar weapon.

32 for an Aberrant with a hammer.
27 for a Nob with a PK.

//What a Nob with PK/chooppa does to an Aberrant
3 * .5 * .833 * 1 * .666 = 0.83
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.2


//What an Aberrant with a Hammer does to a Nob
2 * .5 * .833 * 3 = 2.5
1 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.3

Zoinks. One of these things is not like the other.

And we haven't even made it to the buffs.

+1A for Nobz from Warpath. +1A and +1S for Aberrants.
+1 to hit from Nob Banner. +1 to hit and reroll 1s to wound for Aberrants
5++ for shooting only for the Nobz. 4+++ with reroll 1s.

And there's more than that.



Sure, the base cost of the model is just its durability. They never fluctuate that base cost around what other models in a codex have access to the shared weaponry. Which is why the durability cost of a 3+ save eldar based on Dark reapers is 5. And the durability of a rhino is the same as the durability of a vindicator!


Irrelevant. Look at the comparison. The Pick Abs vs double choppa Nobs is a red herring. Ork players take Nobs for AV. We have plenty of low str no AP attacks from Boys. You know this. Again, look at the comparison in the very post your quoted.

If you can't see a problem and massive discrepancy there I don't know what to tell you.

It's not even close.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 07:39:36


Post by: SHUPPET


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.


Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.

at what point were they able to nerf Knights?

tneva82 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming your numbers are accurate, Daedalus, even with triple Battalions, you're probably out by the end of three.


So about same as orks. And as by then game is pretty much done with winner just mobbing up no big deal. Even optimal

Is that genuinely how all your matches go?


Did you forget that Chapter Approved was released not too long ago?

Knights missed the cut off date for Chapter Approved. Literally the entire team was unanimously in agreement that Knights need nerfs.


But I guess you missed that.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 07:46:50


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 SHUPPET wrote:
It was the more competent groups I follow that recognised the codex as strong, but on here I just heard a lot of whining about how weak the new Ork codex was. I notice that it's quite a few Ork posters in this thread too making quite a few very bold declarations once again. Lol.

[Citation needed]

Note that competitive players, including your favourite Geoff Robinson are placing Orks as a 'gatekeeper' army at best. Aka - mid tier.

Note that we have no results to support the rhetoric that the Ork codex is particularly strong.

Note that the bolter beta rule, CA18 and indeed this codex release all weaken the competitive ability of the Ork codex.

 SHUPPET wrote:

at what point were they able to nerf Knights?

Two week codex specific FAQ. Either of the two big FAQs. CA18. Anytime they wanted to help balance the game and stop raking in Castellan sales. Don't give me this cut off garbage. If they wanted to fix them, they've had ample time. Storm Raven spam didn't last long iirc.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 07:58:42


Post by: C4790M


I don’t tknow why people are complaining about gsc being powerful allies for nids, you don’t HAVE to take them. They’re just now in a similar position to mono-imperium lists being inferior to soup. And lets be real, how many top level nids lists didn’t include a gsc detachment already for abominants/magus?


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 09:17:18


Post by: ingtaer



Can we please make sure the discussion remains civil? Rule 1 is there for a reason.

Thanks.
ingtaer.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 09:46:16


Post by: SHUPPET


 An Actual Englishman wrote:


Note that competitive players, including your favourite Geoff Robinson are placing Orks as a 'gatekeeper' army at best. Aka - mid tier.

My favorite? Lel yeah don't listen to breakdowns from GT winners who have been playing an army for months, instead listen to the wisdom and insight that is dakka's outrage having never even put hands on the dex yet. Otherwise YOU'RE PICKING FAVORITES




BTW what Geoff actually said about Orkz was that they are one of the best armies in the game, openly mocked Pablo for "predicting" that they'd be top 8 at LVO as if it's not even in question, and the entire podcast agreed, even Paulo going back to admit "yeah thats not really a prediction at all".

But I guess just flat lying about it is cool too, you do you.

InControl is easy to get in contact with, if you're curious about his opinions on Orkz just swing him a message, rather than inventing false statements on other people's behalf.


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Two week codex specific FAQ. Either of the two big FAQs. CA18. Anytime they wanted to help balance the game and stop raking in Castellan sales. Don't give me this cut off garbage. If they wanted to fix them, they've had ample time. Storm Raven spam didn't last long iirc.

Hmmmmmm I guess unlike some of the more vocal players in this community, they chose to wait until the dex is actually been played competitively and see if anything was too strong before nerfing it. Why would they nerf something when nothing has changed from release state lol? You know well and truly that 2 week FAQs are for fixing editor mistakes and clarifying rules.

Big FAQ's aren't for points changes anymore. They are deliberately trying to keep them to Chapter Approved, and overall game changes to FAQ to keep everything in as minimal places as possible, which even still has people complaining about too many loose ends. Anyway the point was made as they made a conscious decision not to nerf Knights in CA2018, that was factually incorrect, so let's just take that L and move on.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 11:36:39


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Sure, the base cost of the model is just its durability. They never fluctuate that base cost around what other models in a codex have access to the shared weaponry. Which is why the durability cost of a 3+ save eldar based on Dark reapers is 5. And the durability of a rhino is the same as the durability of a vindicator!


Ah, so I guess IS aren't good for their cost. They're just surrounded by bad units!


Uh, no. I'm pointing out how ridiculous your assertion that the base point cost of a model is "its durability" is.

Right off the bat it's obvious that a models cost also includes it's offensive output and mobility, as well as access to special rules (see Neophyte vs Infantry squad. One gets CA). There are also tons of examples of models whose base cost gets partially shifted to a weapon or a weapon gets baked into the base cost.

All orks get and pay for dakkadakka, ere we go, and mob rule, three extremely good base rules. Ere we go for example us better at getting any ork unit from any clan into combat off deep strike than the cult of the four armed emperor trait.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 12:35:44


Post by: Karol


the_scotsman 770982 10336635 wrote:
Uh, no. I'm pointing out how ridiculous your assertion that the base point cost of a model is "its durability" is.

Right off the bat it's obvious that a models cost also includes it's offensive output and mobility, as well as access to special rules (see Neophyte vs Infantry squad. One gets CA). There are also tons of examples of models whose base cost gets partially shifted to a weapon or a weapon gets baked into the base cost.

All orks get and pay for dakkadakka, ere we go, and mob rule, three extremely good base rules. Ere we go for example us better at getting any ork unit from any clan into combat off deep strike than the cult of the four armed emperor trait.

But units paying for both offense and defense is just not true. IG troops for example, the way they are costed, have either their resilience not accounted in their units cost or their offensive power, and that is pre adding stuff like being cadian or catachan, which boosts them even further at no cost.


I guess unlike some of the more vocal players in this community, they chose to wait until the dex is actually been played competitively and see if anything was too strong before nerfing it. Why would they nerf something when nothing has changed from release state lol? You know well and truly that 2 week FAQs are for fixing editor mistakes and clarifying rules.

Now don't take it as an attack or that I don't agree with your, but I have serious doubts that any of the top tier tournament players who either know or are playtesters themselfs have to wait after a codex comes out to test the rules it have. Sometimes the composition of lets say Inari lists pre rule of 3 nerf, switched to to post nerf army list , even before the nerfs actually did happen.




Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 12:48:25


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
the_scotsman 770982 10336635 wrote:
Uh, no. I'm pointing out how ridiculous your assertion that the base point cost of a model is "its durability" is.

Right off the bat it's obvious that a models cost also includes it's offensive output and mobility, as well as access to special rules (see Neophyte vs Infantry squad. One gets CA). There are also tons of examples of models whose base cost gets partially shifted to a weapon or a weapon gets baked into the base cost.

All orks get and pay for dakkadakka, ere we go, and mob rule, three extremely good base rules. Ere we go for example us better at getting any ork unit from any clan into combat off deep strike than the cult of the four armed emperor trait.

But units paying for both offense and defense is just not true. IG troops for example, the way they are costed, have either their resilience not accounted in their units cost or their offensive power, and that is pre adding stuff like being cadian or catachan, which boosts them even further at no cost.


Uh huh. It's just not true. A plague marine definitely does not cost more than a tactical marine despite the same damage output. A company vet with storm bolter definitely does not cost more than a tactical marine despite the same durability.

The fact that some units in the game are balanced poorly does not change what the balancing metric actually is. Just because points for weapons and points for the units are separated does not mean you can claim "ah, this means GW always prices the body based on the capabilities of the model and the weapon based on how much damage it does!" Because that's patently absurd and it takes 6 seconds to disprove. SO MANY WEAPONS ARE PRICED AT ZERO because the entire value of the weapon is baked into the base cost of the unit. And then on the flipside when multiple units have access to the same weapon (say, a basic infantry trooper and a BS2+ character, in the case of a Dark Reaper and an Eldar Autarch) you have units where the base cost of the body is deflated in order to make the weapon more expensive for the other unit that can take it. The body of a dark reaper is 5 points and almost all their points cost is in the gun because Autarchs also have access to the gun. If only dark reapers had it, you can bet your ass the cost of the gun would be a big fat 0 and all the points cost would be in the body of the dark reaper.

The costs of separated bodies and weapons is a balance lever for the designers and that. is. it. ONLY TOTALS MATTER. Trying to separate the body when a weapon "upgrade" is mandatory is asinine. So either find a comparable upgrade to compare if you're trying to compare two units, or don't compare them because their roles are different, don't pull out some dishonest-ass "Oh, well, if you look at the price of the body, clearly this is better..." bs, or I am going to make you explain why naked dark reapers are the end all be all power in the universe.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 13:28:01


Post by: Tyel


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
It was the more competent groups I follow that recognised the codex as strong, but on here I just heard a lot of whining about how weak the new Ork codex was. I notice that it's quite a few Ork posters in this thread too making quite a few very bold declarations once again. Lol.

[Citation needed]


I guess is bad because its prolonging a fight - but citation, I was there. Dakka was incredibly negative about the Ork codex. Any post to the tune of "this unit looks good" got a hostile response, typically followed by three more lamenting that the Stompa still sucks.

Still, back on GSC, not really convinced the Nexos is problematic. Its 50 points. Sure if there is a warlord trait/artifact you value at more than 50 points (since this is how most armies get this ability) then its a good exchange but I am not convinced there is - or at least not for GSC/Tyranids. (Okay you are getting a guy as well, but he has an autopistol, he isn't doing much aside from providing the ability). A lot of codexes have a CP farm ability and then a list of clearly inferior options (Tau, DE). Since CP farming is near mandatory he is going to be played - but I don't think he's dramatically too low.


Bork? GSC (Don't Boycott) @ 2019/02/06 13:31:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


the_scotsman is quite right.

There's more to a model's worth than it's durability. What role does it perform? What sort of firepower is it packing? What sort of damage can it feasibly do in HTH? How does it interact with the rest of the army? How common are they in the FoC? What alternatives are there? Do they buff other units? Are they recipients of buffs?

The whole reason they separated out wargear costs the way they did was to allow for easier tinkering. If the actual model is too good, up it's points, but leave the wargear be, and vice versa, including when something is actually a bit bobbins and not really performing the role they intended for it. Giving the weapon a separate cost, even if it's zero gives them wider options.

Take Bolter Drill. My word Marines needed that. It helps them. But it doesn't make the humble Bolter so much better it needs a points boost. Yet in the future, they may also grant Bolters -1 AP - which could entail upping their cost to 1pt to reflect it's a significant boost to the damage output of the wider army.