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Post by: Stux
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/11/breaking-news-from-gama/
New expansion bringing Terminators, Custodes, Crisis Suits, and other elite infantry to Kill Team!
The article says every faction will get new units, so what else do we think we'll see?
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Post by: torblind
Lychguard. And praetorians perhaps, if more than one?
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Post by: Waaaghbert
Haemonculi-related stuff hopefully, although the artivle mentions mandrakes, which are cool as well.
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Post by: Ancestral Hamster
The Thousands Sons Kill Team box ... are those Scarab Terminators?
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Post by: Sterling191
Go on...
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Post by: TarkinLarson
With Kill Team Elites (and terminators) and Genestealers, can this be a pseudo competitive Space Hulk for a modern age?
I was originally looking forward to Inquisitors and Ministorum Priests etc... maybe they'll come in with the updates to Sisters of Battle... considering Vigilus is meant to be a bit of a fanatical planet.
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Post by: Stux
Yup! I expect that kit will be the SOTs box with a terrain feature basically.
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Post by: Desubot
Oh boy some flashy gitz.
cant wait to see what everyone gets.
with crisis suits in, im hoping to see some IG sentinels
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Post by: Denegaar
Waaaghbert wrote:Haemonculi-related stuff hopefully, although the artivle mentions mandrakes, which are cool as well.
There's a Grotesque in one of the videos.
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Post by: Requizen
I haven't played in a while, is Commanders a thing people actually play with?
Elites aren't necessarily as hard to balance as Heroes but I wonder if this becomes another one-off expansion that gets forgotten about.
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Post by: Stux
Requizen wrote:I haven't played in a while, is Commanders a thing people actually play with?
Elites aren't necessarily as hard to balance as Heroes but I wonder if this becomes another one-off expansion that gets forgotten about.
I think there's a difference in that Elites seems to be bringing a bunch of models that people wanted from the outset (and that were available in previous versions of the game).
Whereas Commanders wasn't really something we were asking for.
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Post by: Niiai
What units do the different factions get?
I am particular interested in nid units: Hive guards, zoanthropes or pyrovores?
GSC: Are not most of the elites alredy in the game?
Deldar: The whole haemunculy troops and elites? And mandrakes?
All marines, including all chaos marines: Terminators.
And I suspect a point increase. Custodins in regular warhammer are 50 points each. How are they here?
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Post by: hvg3akaek
I so much want to see this! I have my 'guard already built (been using them to proxy for flayed ones), and have a bunch of praetorians waiting to be built - their inclusion would be good motivation!
Also, using a Lord as a commander would be nice, too, but not sure if they are adding more commanders...
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Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli
I am happy that terminators are being added to Kill team. It is probably enough of an excuse for me to get box termies of all the factions I don't already have. I am at about half already.
At the same time, I don't think my money/time budget will support upgrading all the Kill Team factions I already have to play Elites. I might even have to cut Harlequins and Deathwatch from my future purchases now. Just too much stuff to work on along with anticipated CSM releases this year. I expect Abbadon alone is going to take me a month to paint. I guess there are worse problems to have that too many cool models to paint.
I hope that Elites are more of an either/or supplement with Commanders as I am still not very likely to buy the Commander's book to make use of Elite. I only have a few HQ choices that are "Commanders", and I really have any interest in changing that. If Elites really does require Commanders, I may have to pass. Even if it doesn't, I also don't expect Elites to completely replace core Kill Team form me as I personally still plan to play the plain Jane version.
As for new units, I am certain that pretty much all the current factions in Kill Team will get something, but I think a few factions may just get a single new unit. Others could get quite a few. Hopefully, if helps balance data sheet imbalance a little bit.
Unfortunately, I am not getting that hyped up for this release. I mean, it is good and everything. But I really do expect Elites to be inline with the Kill Team design structure of individually pointed Elite choices pretty close to 40k point costs, cheaper special weapon costs, more command point using tactics bloat and subfaction rules which may or may not be Tactics. That seems like a lot dials and switches to completely throw what little balance Kill Team currently has out the window. I just want to have a fairly low bar for expectations.
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Post by: Desubot
 Niiai wrote:What units do the different factions get? I am particular interested in nid units: Hive guards, zoanthropes or pyrovores? GSC: Are not most of the elites alredy in the game? Deldar: The whole haemunculy troops and elites? And mandrakes? All marines, including all chaos marines: Terminators. And I suspect a point increase. Custodins in regular warhammer are 50 points each. How are they here?
Im expecting things with 2+ armor saves. or possibly higher wounds. so probably ogryns and ratlings for IG, Terminators, centurions/oblits for SM and CSM, dunno about nids, hopefully the bikes for GSC because i want them.. Ether way however they will probably cost quite a lot of points. somewhere between commander and normal dude range.
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Post by: Ancestral Hamster
Thanks for the reply. Have to see what Elites adds, for while I was planning on building a Thousand Sons KT, it was going to be Rubric Marines and Tzangors per core rules.
 Stux wrote:
Yup! I expect that kit will be the SOTs box with a terrain feature basically.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
about time.
hopefullly this means my kataphron breachers are added, even tough they are regular troop unit. i do so hate skitarii.
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Post by: Hawky
Not sure if I like it or not, however it was inevitable as they NEED to push the new marines absolutely everywhere...
What Admech gets? Cataphron servitors, possibly/hopefully?
Kastellan robot less likely.
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Post by: Stux
 Desubot wrote: Niiai wrote:What units do the different factions get?
I am particular interested in nid units: Hive guards, zoanthropes or pyrovores?
GSC: Are not most of the elites alredy in the game?
Deldar: The whole haemunculy troops and elites? And mandrakes?
All marines, including all chaos marines: Terminators.
And I suspect a point increase. Custodins in regular warhammer are 50 points each. How are they here?
Im expecting things with 2+ armor saves. or possibly higher wounds. so probably ogryns and ratlings for IG, Terminators, centurions/oblits for SM and CSM, dunno about nids, hopefully the bikes for GSC because i want them..
Ether way however they will probably cost quite a lot of points. somewhere between commander and normal dude range.
Ogryns are in the video so we know they're in!
For Tyranids I think Zoanthropes. If we're lucky maybe Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard too.
GSC have most of their normal infantry already... Bikes is good call though, as I can't really see what else! I would say their non- HQ characters, but given the Kellermorph was more of a Commander I'm not sure about that.
Article also says Eldar get Striking Scorpions, but I'd say likely they get other Aspect Warriors too.
Agree Elites will be for higher point values, probably 200 or so.
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Post by: Herbington
Looks like Space Marines are getting the Eliminators and Suppressors from Shadow Spear too.
Which is great for me, the snipers will fit in the theme of my Kill Team nicely - I just hope for rules for the Vanguard Librarian too.
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Post by: Requizen
Hawky wrote:Not sure if I like it or not, however it was inevitable as they NEED to push the new marines absolutely everywhere...
What Admech gets? Cataphron servitors, possibly/hopefully?
Kastellan robot less likely.
Well UR-025 from Blackstone Fortress is basically a Kastellan so it's not unlikely they'll be in.
Herbington wrote:Looks like Space Marines are getting the Eliminators and Suppressors from Shadow Spear too.
Which is great for me, the snipers will fit in the theme of my Kill Team nicely - I just hope for rules for the Vanguard Librarian too.
Yeah, I've been eyeing up a Primaris army but there's not a lot of variety currently. The addition of Shadowspear models might push me to take the plunge, especially if they're usable in Kill Team. I doubt we'll see any of the Jump Pack dudes included, though.
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Post by: Sterling191
Requizen wrote:
Well UR-025 from Blackstone Fortress is basically a Kastellan so it's not unlikely they'll be in.
Kastellans are tanks. No way in hell are they coming into Kill Team.
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Post by: Requizen
Sterling191 wrote:Requizen wrote:
Well UR-025 from Blackstone Fortress is basically a Kastellan so it's not unlikely they'll be in.
Kastellans are tanks. No way in hell are they coming into Kill Team.
Hm, looking at the dataslate now, I thought UR-025 was closer to their statline, but he's a lot lower toughness/wounds, so you're right, probably not.
Could easily see Kataphrons, though.
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Post by: RedizDead
2019 Q3: Kill Team Fast Attack
2020 Q1: Kill Team Heavy support
2020 Q3: Kill Team Lord of War? :p
No more seriously, Elites will bring something great in the game, much more interesting than Commanders which imo disbalance the game. Can’t wait for it, and to discover what everyone will get!
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Post by: Mordekiem
If Eldar don't get more than just striking scorpions then it is a fail and not worth my time and money.
They should've had them day 1. I've been wanting to play them since I heard Kill Team was being released.
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Post by: Stux
If Suppressors are in (is that actually confirmed?) then I call other jump troops. Assault Marines, Raptors, Swooping Hawks.
I'm not taking elites to mean 40k battlefield role in this instance of course. This is a different game, I'm open to it being a more literal English meaning of elite.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
Stux wrote:If Suppressors are in (is that actually confirmed?) then I call other jump troops. Assault Marines, Raptors, Swooping Hawks.
I'm not taking elites to mean 40k battlefield role in this instance of course. This is a different game, I'm open to it being a more literal English meaning of elite.
as i see it, all models that has 2 wounds in the regular 40k should fit the "elite" role in kill team.
after all, 2 wound elites has 0 use in the regular game so KT is the only arena left for them.
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Post by: hvg3akaek
 FrozenDwarf wrote: Stux wrote:If Suppressors are in (is that actually confirmed?) then I call other jump troops. Assault Marines, Raptors, Swooping Hawks.
I'm not taking elites to mean 40k battlefield role in this instance of course. This is a different game, I'm open to it being a more literal English meaning of elite.
as i see it, all models that has 2 wounds in the regular 40k should fit the "elite" role in kill team.
after all, 2 wound elites has 0 use in the regular game so KT is the only arena left for them.
Of course, we already have Tyranid Warriors (3W) and Lictors (4w), as well as Primaris (2W) and Stealth Suits (2W), so that doesn't quite work with what we already have.
I am also expecting / hoping that "elites" will have reasonable troop-scale options from various 40k battlefield roles.
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Post by: Herbington
Stux wrote:If Suppressors are in (is that actually confirmed?) then I call other jump troops. Assault Marines, Raptors, Swooping Hawks.
I'm not taking elites to mean 40k battlefield role in this instance of course. This is a different game, I'm open to it being a more literal English meaning of elite.
Suppressors are shown in the last photo of the reveal article!
Not sure we'll see assault marines, the SM faction will be getting pretty bloated in comparison to some others.
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Post by: torblind
So anything on what necrons are getting?
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Post by: hvg3akaek
Of course not :(
But...there isn't a whole lot left for us to get. Destroyers are probably out as they are expensive, and too fast; Wraiths would be nice, but are likewise fast and expensive. Lychguards are an obvious choice, but largely because there's not much else. Praetorians are a hopeful inclusion, but problematic because of speed...
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Post by: Stux
Herbington wrote: Stux wrote:If Suppressors are in (is that actually confirmed?) then I call other jump troops. Assault Marines, Raptors, Swooping Hawks.
I'm not taking elites to mean 40k battlefield role in this instance of course. This is a different game, I'm open to it being a more literal English meaning of elite.
Suppressors are shown in the last photo of the reveal article!
Not sure we'll see assault marines, the SM faction will be getting pretty bloated in comparison to some others.
So? Precedent from 40k suggests that bloat in the Space Marine faction is to be expected :p
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Post by: Skinnereal
Stux wrote:If Suppressors are in (is that actually confirmed?) then I call other jump troops. Assault Marines, Raptors, Swooping Hawks.
I'm not taking elites to mean 40k battlefield role in this instance of course. This is a different game, I'm open to it being a more literal English meaning of elite.
Nah, they're going to be in "Kill Team Fast Attack", when it gets released.
But I get what you mean.
I do hope the other jump troops get s showing, as you saw.
Isn't there an Eldar Autarch with wings already? I may have dreamed that though.
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Post by: DarK_EtheR
Assume this means that GKs will get our standard troop choice... though hoping we get the actually elite paladins
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Post by: Trimarius
One of the box sets they showed is Flash Gitz, a heavy support choice in 40k, so this release is following the generic English definition of "elite" rather than the 40k force org chart. Now, a lot of those units are already in the elite slot, so there's no doubt a ton of crossover between the two. Much like the inevitable "armored support" light vehicle expansion will include lots of heavy support choices: it's just where those models tend to live in 40k.
DarK_EtheR wrote:Assume this means that GKs will get our standard troop choice... though hoping we get the actually elite paladins
Terminators are in, so I imagine you'll at least get those. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to see paladins (since the much beefier custodes are in), but I suppose I could see them not wanting to do two very similar units for the same army at the same time.
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Post by: ProtoClone
As a harlequin player I'm crossing fingers for the only other infantry choice, solitaire.
Kind of intrigued by what this will bring.
Could we see more creativity towards campaigns?
I would really like to see something where a DM moderates a series of KT games (Core, Commanders, Arena, and/or Elites) against a player with winner being determined by best completion time.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
AdMech has those electro priest guys to get, not just Kataphrons.
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Post by: teratroopa
I wonder if you’re only going to be able to take 1 “elite” per kill team or are you able to build a whole team of them? The TS box would make you think you could but it wouldn’t be the first time gw would pull something like that. It’s probably best to approach the release like how you should video games - no preorders and wait for actually player reviews.
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Post by: Hawky
I think the addition of high W/ T/Sv models will shake the meta considerably and it will make players to spam plasma/melta/whatever, as it would be the only (reliable) mean of causing damage. Especially against Custodes.
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Post by: Stux
teratroopa wrote:I wonder if you’re only going to be able to take 1 “elite” per kill team or are you able to build a whole team of them? The TS box would make you think you could but it wouldn’t be the first time gw would pull something like that. It’s probably best to approach the release like how you should video games - no preorders and wait for actually player reviews.
The fact Custodes are a team says to me there's no hard limit.
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Post by: Sterling191
 Hawky wrote:I think the addition of high W/ T/ Sv models will shake the meta considerably and it will make players to spam plasma/melta/whatever, as it would be the only (reliable) mean of causing damage. Especially against Custodes.
With the way Kill Team's injury roll works, multidamage weapons are already king. The addition of T5/T6 units isnt going to change that.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Hawky wrote:I think the addition of high W/ T/ Sv models will shake the meta considerably and it will make players to spam plasma/melta/whatever, as it would be the only (reliable) mean of causing damage. Especially against Custodes.
Those are already the weapons used in kill team.
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Post by: Stux
 DarknessEternal wrote: Hawky wrote:I think the addition of high W/ T/ Sv models will shake the meta considerably and it will make players to spam plasma/melta/whatever, as it would be the only (reliable) mean of causing damage. Especially against Custodes.
Those are already the weapons used in kill team.
Agreed. Taking maximum high power weaponry is already basically the meta. Hordes as an alternative are generally not great, due to how morale can spiral out of control when you start losing models.
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Post by: Desubot
Stux wrote:
Agreed. Taking maximum high power weaponry is already basically the meta. Hordes as an alternative are generally not great, due to how morale can spiral out of control when you start losing models.
I though it was about the same for low model count armies since you start testing at half strength.
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Post by: Sterling191
Desubot wrote:
I though it was about the same for low model count armies since you start testing at half strength.
Low model forces tend to have much higher leadership, and as such arent as susceptible to the cascading break-shock.
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Post by: Stux
Desubot wrote: Stux wrote:
Agreed. Taking maximum high power weaponry is already basically the meta. Hordes as an alternative are generally not great, due to how morale can spiral out of control when you start losing models.
I though it was about the same for low model count armies since you start testing at half strength.
I mean nerve tests as well, whenever you take a flesh wound. Because you get a +1 for every model out of action, that can get horrible fast for chaff forces.
Works alright for Tyranids though, with Synapse!
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Post by: Scott-S6
Desubot wrote: Stux wrote:
Agreed. Taking maximum high power weaponry is already basically the meta. Hordes as an alternative are generally not great, due to how morale can spiral out of control when you start losing models.
I though it was about the same for low model count armies since you start testing at half strength.
You test for broken at half strength (out of action, fleshwound or shaken).
You take nerve tests for any model with a flesh wound and you have a penalty for every model out of action.
With a horde it's very easy to get enough models out of action that you're failing the vast majority of your nerve tests which then pushes you towards taking a broken team test.
On the other hand with a DW vets team, for example, you have to lose 3/5 of the team before it's even possible to fail.
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Post by: torblind
Did they list what elites are coming to different factions?
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Post by: FunJohn
 Trimarius wrote:One of the box sets they showed is Flash Gitz, a heavy support choice in 40k, so this release is following the generic English definition of "elite" rather than the 40k force org chart. Now, a lot of those units are already in the elite slot, so there's no doubt a ton of crossover between the two. Much like the inevitable "armored support" light vehicle expansion will include lots of heavy support choices: it's just where those models tend to live in 40k.
DarK_EtheR wrote:Assume this means that GKs will get our standard troop choice... though hoping we get the actually elite paladins
Terminators are in, so I imagine you'll at least get those. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to see paladins (since the much beefier custodes are in), but I suppose I could see them not wanting to do two very similar units for the same army at the same time.
Yeah, and the video shows a Tau Commander, not crisis suits, so Tau will get an HQ as an "elite"
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Post by: Sterling191
Nope. Only a few examples given.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Also, nuts to just Striking Scorpions. If it doesn't include Banshees, Dragons, and Wraithguard, I'm gonna be real mad.
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Post by: Desubot
DarknessEternal wrote:Also, nuts to just Striking Scorpions. If it doesn't include Banshees, Dragons, and Wraithguard, I'm gonna be real mad.
Id be pretty mad as well. i have soo many banshees sitting around :/
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Post by: hvg3akaek
Desubot wrote: DarknessEternal wrote:Also, nuts to just Striking Scorpions. If it doesn't include Banshees, Dragons, and Wraithguard, I'm gonna be real mad.
Id be pretty mad as well. i have soo many banshees sitting around :/
There were some wraithblades in the intro video, so hopeful that the wraithguard get in, too. But yes - we need (many) more aspects! As many aspects as others have weapon options! 
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Post by: Sterling191
Realistically I'd expect everything but Spectres and Spears (and obviously Crimson Hunters) to have a place in a Craftworld Kill Team. It was ridiculous to see them excluded initially.
"Hey, lets put together a small close knit team of the best of the best..."
"Sure, let me go get the window washer, the hairdresser and the groundskeeper, we got this. Oh and that one guy with the fancy hat, he can come too".
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Post by: Skinnereal
Sterling191 wrote:"Hey, lets put together a small close knit team of the best of the best..."
"Sure, let me go get the window washer, the hairdresser and the groundskeeper, we got this. Oh and that one guy with the fancy hat, he can come too".
Guardians, then? 
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Post by: Sterling191
Ayup, that's effectively what CWE Kill Teams are right now. Guardian hordes with maybe one or two Rangers and a DA Exarch leader.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Sterling191 wrote:Realistically I'd expect everything but Spectres and Spears (and obviously Crimson Hunters) to have a place in a Craftworld Kill Team. It was ridiculous to see them excluded initially.
"Hey, lets put together a small close knit team of the best of the best..."
"Sure, let me go get the window washer, the hairdresser and the groundskeeper, we got this. Oh and that one guy with the fancy hat, he can come too".
According to Gav it only takes two battles (and being turned down by your crush) to go from being a whiny sculptor to being an exarch and a third to become a pheonix lord so guardians should all be badass.
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Post by: DangerousFat
FunJohn wrote:Yeah, and the video shows a Tau Commander, not crisis suits, so Tau will get an HQ as an "elite"
This press release specifically says Crisis Suits.
http://www.dicetowernews.com/tag/kill-team-elites
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Post by: novembermike
Stux wrote:teratroopa wrote:I wonder if you’re only going to be able to take 1 “elite” per kill team or are you able to build a whole team of them? The TS box would make you think you could but it wouldn’t be the first time gw would pull something like that. It’s probably best to approach the release like how you should video games - no preorders and wait for actually player reviews.
The fact Custodes are a team says to me there's no hard limit.
Yeah, I'm assuming that Elites are just expanded rosters and maybe a 200 point limit. That doesn't seem like it breaks anything and lets armies like custodes or deathwing work.
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Post by: brumbaer
If you‘d increase the points limit to 200 pts, many teams would have to take a Elite choice to be competitive.
Because with 100 pts many fractions will already have reached their limit regarding specialisms and special/heavy weapons and „better“ models. The additional 100 points could only be spent on base troopers. Another 20 Guardsmen, yeah.
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Post by: Adeptus Doritos
brumbaer wrote:If you‘d increase the points limit to 200 pts, many teams would have to take a Elite choice to be competitive.
Because with 100 pts many fractions will already have reached their limit regarding specialisms and special/heavy weapons and „better“ models. The additional 100 points could only be spent on base troopers. Another 20 Guardsmen, yeah.
Pretty much all of my Kill-Team games since Commanders have been 200 point games, even the skirmishes. A good chunk of factions have a Commander unit over 100 points.
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Post by: Arcanis161
brumbaer wrote:If you‘d increase the points limit to 200 pts, many teams would have to take a Elite choice to be competitive.
Because with 100 pts many fractions will already have reached their limit regarding specialisms and special/heavy weapons and „better“ models. The additional 100 points could only be spent on base troopers. Another 20 Guardsmen, yeah.
Could also do Scion spam with the extra points. Not saying it's a good idea, but it would be an option.
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Post by: Scott-S6
brumbaer wrote:If you‘d increase the points limit to 200 pts, many teams would have to take a Elite choice to be competitive.
Because with 100 pts many fractions will already have reached their limit regarding specialisms and special/heavy weapons and „better“ models. The additional 100 points could only be spent on base troopers. Another 20 Guardsmen, yeah.
If, as has been implied, elites is an add on for commanders then it actually helps Guard dramatically because they have exactly that problem in commander.
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Post by: alleus
I really hope the new Vanguard Infiltrators for Space Marines aren't Elites. Eliminators, and Supressors if they are included as well, should be Elites for sure, but I want to be able to make an Infiltrator Kill Team without too many restrictions!
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Post by: hvg3akaek
Since we already have (by 40k terminology) many "Elites" in Kill Team (as well as a couple of "Fast Attack", and even a "Heavy Support"), it would be wise if the Elites expansion contained more options that could be fit into existing armies, or be used solely as them. Maybe more expensive, such as the Lictor or Tau Stealth Suits already are, but no more restrictive.
After all, if we're only allowed one Elite per team, how are the Custodes going to work? Better to make them limited by cost (aka a 4-lictor kill team) than impose a limit akin to "one commander per team".
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Post by: Trimarius
alleus wrote:I really hope the new Vanguard Infiltrators for Space Marines aren't Elites. Eliminators, and Supressors if they are included as well, should be Elites for sure, but I want to be able to make an Infiltrator Kill Team without too many restrictions!
It would seem a bit odd for the space marine infiltration specialists to not be available as a base unit. It'd be like not having access to scouts.
Granted, for all we know this will just be a straight-up addition to the base rules, rather than something a little more optional (like commanders). The increased points level would be a sticking point, though, as you're not fitting many custodes in 100pts (unless they drop the basic grunts to 33 each, which isn't outside the realm of possibility considering the wargear reductions in KT).
hvg3akaek wrote:Since we already have (by 40k terminology) many "Elites" in Kill Team (as well as a couple of "Fast Attack", and even a "Heavy Support"), it would be wise if the Elites expansion contained more options that could be fit into existing armies, or be used solely as them. Maybe more expensive, such as the Lictor or Tau Stealth Suits already are, but no more restrictive.
After all, if we're only allowed one Elite per team, how are the Custodes going to work? Better to make them limited by cost (aka a 4-lictor kill team) than impose a limit akin to "one commander per team".
They've shown off KT-branded boxed teams of Flash Gitz and Scarab Occult Terminators, so it's definitely possible to field a whole team of "Elites".
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Post by: Scott-S6
hvg3akaek wrote:After all, if we're only allowed one Elite per team, how are the Custodes going to work? Better to make them limited by cost (aka a 4-lictor kill team) than impose a limit akin to "one commander per team".
There's never been any suggestion of a one per team limit, quite the opposite.
I suspect we'll see elites only allowed in commander games (which are 200pts).
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Post by: Bharring
"It would seem a bit odd for the space marine infiltration specialists to not be available as a base unit. It'd be like not having access to scouts."
Like not having Striking Scorpions? Or Mandrakes?
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Post by: Trimarius
Scott-S6 wrote:hvg3akaek wrote:After all, if we're only allowed one Elite per team, how are the Custodes going to work? Better to make them limited by cost (aka a 4-lictor kill team) than impose a limit akin to "one commander per team".
There's never been any suggestion of a one per team limit, quite the opposite.
I suspect we'll see elites only allowed in commander games (which are 200pts).
I doubt it'll be tied to commanders at all (no reason you couldn't use both at the same time, of course), but an increase in the game size seems pretty plausible. Five custodes (a previewed kt) at 150 or 200 points seems about right, assuming they end up at 30-40 points apiece with gear.
Bharring wrote:"It would seem a bit odd for the space marine infiltration specialists to not be available as a base unit. It'd be like not having access to scouts."
Like not having Striking Scorpions? Or Mandrakes?
Not having an old, resin elite choice isn't the same as not having a plastic troop choice for the flagship faction. Both should have made it in from a fluff point of view (though, honestly, I was more confused by the lack of wracks for DE, since they're plastic), but only the most iconic infiltrators, like rangers, made it in without a plastic kit.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Trimarius wrote:
I doubt it'll be tied to commanders at all (no reason you couldn't use both at the same time, of course), but an increase in the game size seems pretty plausible. Five custodes (a previewed kt) at 150 or 200 points seems about right, assuming they end up at 30-40 points apiece with gear.
The back of the book says commanders is required to use it.
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Post by: Trimarius
 Scott-S6 wrote: Trimarius wrote:
I doubt it'll be tied to commanders at all (no reason you couldn't use both at the same time, of course), but an increase in the game size seems pretty plausible. Five custodes (a previewed kt) at 150 or 200 points seems about right, assuming they end up at 30-40 points apiece with gear.
The back of the book says commanders is required to use it.
I'm assuming that's for the commanders that are going to be added, not for general use. Custodes are likely to get someone, at least, and there could easily be others (like all the terminator armored SM/ CSM HQs, for example).
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Post by: hvg3akaek
Yeah, hopefully because some of the new 'elites' missions will be 'elites + commanders', thus to get everything out of elites, you also need commanders.
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Post by: Adeptus Doritos
I'm thinking this expansion might be a bit of a complication in Kill-Team, especially if they release anything similar to Rogue Trader- which required "Commanders" prior to the Commanders expansion.
I get the feeling that Kill-Team is deliberately designed to draw in new players, and the problem with that is that you're releasing new kits where players need 3 books.
However, I'm curious to see what they consider "Elites"- because I've got the feeling that it won't be specifically "Elites" in the standard 40k sense, considering Eliminators were shown.
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Post by: hvg3akaek
That, and we already have over 20 "elites" in the game currently.
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Post by: Scott-S6
hvg3akaek wrote:That, and we already have over 20 "elites" in the game currently.
And we have commanders that aren't HQs.
It's pretty obvious that KT classification does not care about 40K battlefield role. Automatically Appended Next Post: hvg3akaek wrote:Yeah, hopefully because some of the new 'elites' missions will be 'elites + commanders', thus to get everything out of elites, you also need commanders.
Either way - the facebook commentary has been that it's an expansion like commanders, not a change to the base game so I'm expecting it to either be it's own unique game mode or it's going to be merged with commanders as an alternate game mode.
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Post by: hvg3akaek
Scott-S6 wrote:hvg3akaek wrote:That, and we already have over 20 "elites" in the game currently.
And we have commanders that aren't HQs.
It's pretty obvious that KT classification does not care about 40K battlefield role.[/qupte]Exactly 
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hvg3akaek wrote:Yeah, hopefully because some of the new 'elites' missions will be 'elites + commanders', thus to get everything out of elites, you also need commanders.
Either way - the facebook commentary has been that it's an expansion like commanders, not a change to the base game so I'm expecting it to either be it's own unique game mode or it's going to be merged with commanders as an alternate game mode.
Yep, I'd be surprised if it became the standard / most popular playing style (though, if it did, that would be good - it would mean it was balanced better than Commanders was!), but our group is pretty keen to play it (not half because one player plays Custodes in 40k, and has been less than satisfied with the KT game so far).
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Post by: Tpiddy
Im most interested in the expansion’s scenarios. A few elites against a horde of ‘nids or zombi cultists sounds fantastic.
Side note- the popularity of KT has me jazzed for 9th edition. If they really include expansions for every force org slot, it will be like playing mini 40k, with alternate activations. Not that 8th is bad, but this may catapult the game into another era if it were implemented. Anyone else think this is a possibility?
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Post by: fresus
I think KT scales really badly, because of how morale works.
It's already a big issue at 200pts. If you don't take an expensive commander and only bring cheap models (and many factions don't have any other option), then you automatically fail every nerve test as soon as you loose like a quarter of your team.
150pts with access to somewhat big models (like ogryns) could really help horde factions not get destroyed by morale.
Anything above 200pts seems impossible under the ruleset, unless you bring custodes and 150pts commanders.
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Post by: Adeptus Doritos
I'm a bit annoyed that nothing else has come out for this. I'd like a bit of information, at least something.
Like all this stuff GW teased was awesome, and the Chaos releases pushed it aside.
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Post by: Tpiddy
Thats a good point about morale
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Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli
fresus wrote:I think KT scales really badly, because of how morale works.
It's already a big issue at 200pts. If you don't take an expensive commander and only bring cheap models (and many factions don't have any other option), then you automatically fail every nerve test as soon as you loose like a quarter of your team.
150pts with access to somewhat big models (like ogryns) could really help horde factions not get destroyed by morale.
Anything above 200pts seems impossible under the ruleset, unless you bring custodes and 150pts commanders.
I agree. The biggest issue I have with Kill Team is the way Morale works. Just like proper 40k, there are factions/teams that the Morale phase is a big issue while most factions kinda forget it exists or is barely an annoyance on a rare occasion. It doesn't help that it creates a fairly fast death spiral (at least it does in most the games I have played) for the factions that do worry about it, and the complete shutdown of a unit that fails its Nerve check only exasperates the issue. I understand the designers were trying to include it both because war games should generally take into account Morale as well as a way to regulate 'horde' kill teams vs. 'elite' kill teams. However, I don't think Kill Team's Morale Phase accomplishes either. I almost would prefer the Morale phase be dropped entirely if the designers can't develop a system that is mostly ignored by most factions and completely dismantles a couple that are already low-ish tier except in the missions (note: I am not talking about Arena here) where numbers, regardless of Morale, tend to win out anyways just being a sort of skew list.
Adeptus Doritos wrote:I'm a bit annoyed that nothing else has come out for this. I'd like a bit of information, at least something.
Like all this stuff GW teased was awesome, and the Chaos releases pushed it aside.
I would be annoyed as well, but I have been waiting a long time for a lot of the CSM units so I got a lot stuff to paint now that has nothing to do with Kill Team at the moment. Maybe some of them will be in Elites (Havocs), but that wasn't why I bought them anyways. I do want to hear more about what Elites is going to be about though. I still want to know how Commanders ties in at very least.
I would also like to get some of the new CSM kit special weapons (missile launcher, autocannon, chainsword, etc.) as options for Heretic Astartes now that their model kit actually has them. Well Shadowspear has the autocannon at least. They won't completely get CSM in Kill Team out of the low tier faction area, but at least they could give the faction a much better fighting chance against a wider range of other factions.
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Post by: Genoside07
I am very curious on how this will fit in the game.
Also would love to see larger things like a dreadnought or Carnifex be single thing to fight.. Kind of a kill team sent in as a monster killer.
Any idea when Elites will hit store shelves?
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Post by: witchdoctor
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:fresus wrote:I think KT scales really badly, because of how morale works.
It's already a big issue at 200pts. If you don't take an expensive commander and only bring cheap models (and many factions don't have any other option), then you automatically fail every nerve test as soon as you loose like a quarter of your team.
150pts with access to somewhat big models (like ogryns) could really help horde factions not get destroyed by morale.
Anything above 200pts seems impossible under the ruleset, unless you bring custodes and 150pts commanders.
I agree. The biggest issue I have with Kill Team is the way Morale works. Just like proper 40k, there are factions/teams that the Morale phase is a big issue while most factions kinda forget it exists or is barely an annoyance on a rare occasion. It doesn't help that it creates a fairly fast death spiral (at least it does in most the games I have played) for the factions that do worry about it, and the complete shutdown of a unit that fails its Nerve check only exasperates the issue. I understand the designers were trying to include it both because war games should generally take into account Morale as well as a way to regulate 'horde' kill teams vs. 'elite' kill teams. However, I don't think Kill Team's Morale Phase accomplishes either. I almost would prefer the Morale phase be dropped entirely if the designers can't develop a system that is mostly ignored by most factions and completely dismantles a couple that are already low-ish tier except in the missions (note: I am not talking about Arena here) where numbers, regardless of Morale, tend to win out anyways just being a sort of skew list. Adeptus Doritos wrote:I'm a bit annoyed that nothing else has come out for this. I'd like a bit of information, at least something.
Like all this stuff GW teased was awesome, and the Chaos releases pushed it aside.
I think like many of the other aspects of the game such as specialists, the designers were trying to incorporate that effect from the XCOM games where if enough of your squad were killed, your troopers would panic and either fire blindly into the night or go hide in a corner doing nothing. My regular opponent and I largely ignore the morale phase, usually out of forgetfulness than anything else. I have to say that many of our games probably turned out to be more fun than they would have otherwise.
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Post by: brumbaer
witchdoctor wrote:
My regular opponent and I largely ignore the morale phase, usually out of forgetfulness than anything else. I have to say that many of our games probably turned out to be more fun than they would have otherwise.
We play in a group of 6 regular players plus some guys joining us now and then.
For us the morale phase is an important part of the game and works well enough.
It does make a difference and poses an additional element to consider. This works in both directions i.e. play so you do not get broken and play to break your opponent. As you can not re-roll the break test, even Necrons get broken once in a while. Advantages and disadvantages related to morale usually cancel themselves out. A mix of Elite and Horde models require the player to budget their cheap troops and not to waste them to avoid being broken by loosing to many of the cheap guys.
There are combinations of teams and missions which will make winning more difficult than others. You might find yourself in a situation where breaking the opponent is the only way to grab a win (not directly by breaking, but by enemy models getting shaken and not holding objectives anymore etc.)
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Post by: Scott-S6
And let's not forget - there are a bunch of missions where breaking the enemy team is NOT an automatic win. If you're sufficiently ahead on victory points and get broken that can still be a win for you.
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Post by: fresus
I don't have an issue with how teams can become broken, I actually like it (but I always loved Mordheim, so I might be biased because of it).
What I don't like is the infinite stacking of negative modifiers from dead comrades.
If I had to redo it, I would keep the "broken team" system, and still have flesh-wounded models and models from broken teams take nerve tests every turn. But I would remove the -1 from friendly dead models, and just have a flat -1 if your team is broken. Then change the Ld to reflect that.
A Marine with a Ld of 5 and a flesh wound would fail its nerve test 3% of the time in an un-broken team, or 12% of the time if the team is broken.
A Ld 4 grunt would fail one third of the time, or half of the time if the team is broken, which seems okay for a low-morale model.
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Post by: brumbaer
@fresus
Your method has IMHO major drawbacks.
You'll test starting with the first flesh wound (except high morale guys, who have to be broken first). As it is now. Many armies do not care about the first number of flesh wounds and kills, because without the -1 for a dead model they will alway pass. Also with only one or two dead models, they can prevent tests by pairing off models or buffing morale with abilities or tactics.
There can be no difference between different "high" morale troops, because if you give one of them 7 he is save for ever.
So you would need a second morale value. One for the individual, one for the team to be broken.
Also morale for a last man standing would be the same as the morale for a team that has lost only one guy, which feels wrong.
Applying boni to the morale would be difficult. If you already have a value of 5 and get a +1 by a tactic or ability, you'd be save.
In comparison to your proposal the original rules are IMHO much better.
They can easily mimic different morale behaviours. Guard, Marines, Nekron, Tyranids, Death Guard behave all different. That leads to a lot of whining from those feeling disadvantaged, but I do want to hear your Deathwatch player, being broken with the third flesh wound and rolling 3 sixes in the morale phase.
There is some escalation. The morale effect is low at the start and increases with attrition.
The morale system is flexible regarding boni and mali.
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Post by: Excommunicatus
So no new info since mid-March?
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Post by: DarknessEternal
I was really hoping the 40k update would include Kill Team errata.
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Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli
With the recent CSM model release, so was I. I am not really expecting use of the autocannon in Kill Team, but now that the CSM sprue has a missile launcher, I would like to have the option to switch out my heavy bolter. Also, I would like to be able to use chain and power axes for my Aspiring Champion without asking permission from my opponent or have them as count as sword versions.
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Post by: Scott-S6
KT has it's own separate errata documents, putting KT errata in the 40K docs would be horrible.
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Post by: alleus
Has there been any more information about Elite since the announcement? I can't find anything, no release date or nothin'.
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Post by: Excommunicatus
Seemingly not. I can't find anything, either.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
ye, and not a moment too soon. cant wait to see the full selection of units that is included.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Ugh, still very few Aspect Warriors. Guess I'm holding out for Kill Team: Fast Attack.
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Post by: Sterling191
It'll depend on how certain rules work. Saim Hann Wraithblades, D-Scythe Wraithguard, Banshees and Alaitoc on well, everything, are gonna change things up considerably.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Hawks cause Fly is boss is Kill Team, but one step at a time.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
well, i might aswell find that old paladin box i bought back in 7th but never got around to actualy open.
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Post by: Nightlord1987
Sounds like a good list for my Unused models collection.
Deathshroud Terminators, Blight Lords, Posessed all seem very Killy for Killteam. May finally have to complete assembly and painting.
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Post by: SamusDrake
Ah, I might actually get this expansion on a quiet month.
Was expecting it to be £35 and KT: Commanders as a requirement but thats not the case. £25 and is mostly Core-book but with a little extra for those who do have KT: Commanders.
I like the idea of adding an elite as a leader such as a Terminator leading a team of Tactical or scout marines, or a Banshee leading guardians.
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Post by: fresus
It just occurred to me: in the very first KT video, there were some wolf cavalry in some of the shots. And they're still not playable. There's isn't much in the cavalry/bike section anyway.
Do you think they changed their original plan (especially since space wolves are not a faction of their own), or do you think there's still another elite-like supplement coming, which should bring the fast moving stuff?
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Post by: SamusDrake
fresus wrote:It just occurred to me: in the very first KT video, there were some wolf cavalry in some of the shots. And they're still not playable. There's isn't much in the cavalry/bike section anyway.
Do you think they changed their original plan (especially since space wolves are not a faction of their own), or do you think there's still another elite-like supplement coming, which should bring the fast moving stuff?
A team stalked by Fenrisian Wolves would make for an interesting game... 
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Post by: Scott-S6
Some great work by the black library team.
Elites is available to order (not pre-order) but after buying it you're told that it's not available to download until the 25th.
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Post by: FrozenDwarf
fresus wrote:It just occurred to me: in the very first KT video, there were some wolf cavalry in some of the shots. And they're still not playable. There's isn't much in the cavalry/bike section anyway.
Do you think they changed their original plan (especially since space wolves are not a faction of their own), or do you think there's still another elite-like supplement coming, which should bring the fast moving stuff?
i think majority now are expecting all selections but heavys in KT by the end of this year., aka everyting that is usless in the regular game gets a chanse to shine in KT.
that means 2 wound elites and fast attacks.
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Post by: Apple fox
Scott-S6 wrote:Some great work by the black library team.
Elites is available to order (not pre-order) but after buying it you're told that it's not available to download until the 25th.
Have they said anything about what’s up? the iTunes books are on preorder now, but it does not exist on the store too preorder and does not even say the dates we should be expecting it.
Click on the link on there store and it opens iTunes to nothing.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Apple fox wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:Some great work by the black library team.
Elites is available to order (not pre-order) but after buying it you're told that it's not available to download until the 25th.
Have they said anything about what’s up? the iTunes books are on preorder now, but it does not exist on the store too preorder and does not even say the dates we should be expecting it.
Click on the link on there store and it opens iTunes to nothing.
Nope, not a thing.
They even sent me the email saying that I can download it.
And now I can't even login to my account.
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Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli
FrozenDwarf wrote:fresus wrote:It just occurred to me: in the very first KT video, there were some wolf cavalry in some of the shots. And they're still not playable. There's isn't much in the cavalry/bike section anyway.
Do you think they changed their original plan (especially since space wolves are not a faction of their own), or do you think there's still another elite-like supplement coming, which should bring the fast moving stuff?
i think majority now are expecting all selections but heavys in KT by the end of this year., aka everyting that is usless in the regular game gets a chanse to shine in KT.
that means 2 wound elites and fast attacks.
I very much could be wrong here, but I don't really see a more large groups of units being added to Kill Team. Most Fast Attack options completely remove the little amount of maneuver that is in the game already. As for Heavy Support, those options are typically meant to be shooting at armor or heavy vehicles/monsters/walkers/etc. Fluff-wise, they wouldn't be that great of a weapon for small team vs. small team to me. I am already less than enthused that the missile launcher is one of the best weapons in Kill Team by the way the rules work. I would really prefer to not see Kill Team look more like a game of Team Fortress 2 with everyone playing the Soldier.
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Post by: Apple fox
Scott-S6 wrote:Apple fox wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:Some great work by the black library team.
Elites is available to order (not pre-order) but after buying it you're told that it's not available to download until the 25th.
Have they said anything about what’s up? the iTunes books are on preorder now, but it does not exist on the store too preorder and does not even say the dates we should be expecting it.
Click on the link on there store and it opens iTunes to nothing.
Nope, not a thing.
They even sent me the email saying that I can download it.
And now I can't even login to my account.
Seems they have fixed the normal version on itunes, But the enhanced version is still a no show for me :( Where do they even post about issues like this ? Its kinda a pain.
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Post by: AduroT
Disappointed at the lack of Aggressors for the Marines. Was hoping to have one of those running across the board.
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Post by: callidusx3
I’ll be using one Aggressor as a Terminator for my all Primaris Marine force.
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Post by: usernamesareannoying
So being new to killteam can someone help me understand how you can add an elite or commander to a team and keep it under 100 points?
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Post by: Niiai
Raveners are 15 points. Seems playable. :-)
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Post by: usernamesareannoying
Terminators are 50
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Post by: Scott-S6
 usernamesareannoying wrote:So being new to killteam can someone help me understand how you can add an elite or commander to a team and keep it under 100 points?
You can only take commanders in missions that say you can.
Right now we have missions with the following points limits:
100pts
125pts
125pts with optional commander for one player
200pts with mandatory commander for one player
200pts with mandatory commanders for both players
200pts with optional commanders for both players
Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can take a 50pt terminator in a 100pt mission but it may not be a good idea.
BTW, terminators are not 50pts. A standard marine terminator is 31.
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Post by: usernamesareannoying
Thanks Scott... 50ish =p
To be fair though i was looking at deathshroud terminators.
I need to read the book again. I thought the only game size was 100...
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Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli
usernamesareannoying wrote:Thanks Scott... 50ish =p
To be fair though i was looking at deathshroud terminators.
I need to read the book again. I thought the only game size was 100...
I also thought Elites made no mention of any kind of point increase beyond Commanders. It wasn't until Scott made mention of it that I double checked that the missions in the Elites book do say otherwise.
I kinda like 100 points and just treat Elites as more options for most factions (and a good portion of them aren't good options IMO) instead of worrying about an increased points limit. I suspect that general consensus into my future games will be: Elites units/subfaction traits comes standard and no longer be considered separate from the core , Commanders will continued to be largely ignored and a static points limit will be decided probably being 125 points.
Honestly, since Kill Team revolves around a 20 man roster, I kinda like the idea that all Core and Elites units are available to build a roster expecting to play both 100 and 125 point limit games. So make sure to have lists in mind for both point limits. At this this way the meta might be a little harder to pin down as fast since, in theory, a faction roster could be different optimizing for a 100 point game compared to a 125 point game and vice versa. I just suspect that players being players are going to like the idea of list building twice with the same 20 models. So I expect a single point total will be the way going forward eventually.
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Post by: Scott-S6
usernamesareannoying wrote:Thanks Scott... 50ish =p
To be fair though i was looking at deathshroud terminators.
I need to read the book again. I thought the only game size was 100...
You know, there are a bunch of commanders that are more than 100pts...
We'll continue to randomly generate missions (I've got all 114 of them) so we'll be playing all of the various point levels.
This is the current split of missions BTW
100pts - 60 missions
125pts - 15 missions
200pts - 27 missions
no limit (open play) - 12 missions
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Post by: JawRippa
Ork choppa is listed as costing 1 pt. Anyone knows if this is misprint or they've just nerfed boys and kommandos in KT?
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Post by: Scott-S6
 JawRippa wrote:Ork choppa is listed as costing 1 pt. Anyone knows if this is misprint or they've just nerfed boys and kommandos in KT?
It has no effect on boys and kommandos.
P12
However, you must use the points values given in this book for data sheets from this book
Data sheets from other Kill Team publications are not affected.
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Post by: Trimarius
JawRippa wrote:Ork choppa is listed as costing 1 pt. Anyone knows if this is misprint or they've just nerfed boys and kommandos in KT?
Lots of gear costs more for Elites than for normal KT units. A Nob's paying four extra points for a kombi-skorcha and melee weapon (regardless of what kind) than the Boyz Nob does, so that's something to keep in mind when planning out a team. It's not just Orks, either, as a SM Vet has the privilege of paying six more points for a combi-melta than normal marine, despite not being a better shot or more survivable.
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Post by: Arcanis161
Just had a go at the Battlescribe app (at least until I get the actual book). Tough to fit more than one Scarab Occult Terminator in a list. Also can't get around having to get Chicken Barbarians, sorry, Tzaangors, if I want a comms specialist.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Aren't Terminators not supposed to take a penalty to moving and shooting heavy weapons?
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Post by: Tiberius501
Hmm, under saviour protocol for drones, they may take a mortal wound for INFANTRY models instead of the target taking dmg. Will this get changed to allow them to take dmg for suits now that they’re in?
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Post by: Niiai
In previus editions yes. In 8th edition not even dreadnoughts and tanks get it. Let alone terminators.
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Post by: Sherrypie
Niiai wrote:
In previus editions yes. In 8th edition not even dreadnoughts and tanks get it. Let alone terminators.
Yup, unless you play Death Guard. Our Legion Trait makes half of the possible first level specialisations redundant 
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